Citation
Interview with Herbert Moore, September 21, 1972

Material Information

Title:
Interview with Herbert Moore, September 21, 1972
Creator:
Moore, Herbert ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

Subjects

Subjects / Keywords:
Florida History ( local )
Lumbee Oral History Collection ( local )
Spatial Coverage:
Lumbee County (Fla.)

Notes

Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

Record Information

Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.
Resource Identifier:
LUM 27A ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

Downloads

This item has the following downloads:


Full Text





> Interview with Harbert Moore by Brenda Brooks, 9/21/72
LUM 27, Side 1



Brooks: ... family history, who you are, your parents, your immediate family also.

Moore: And age and everything?

B: Right.

M: I'm Harbert Moore. Lincoln Moore was my father. Nora Moore was my mother.

t was Born June 6, 1926.

B: Moore?

M: Nora.

B: Nora.

M: N-o-r-a. Nora. And I attended Prospect School. I graduated in 1943. At that

time, we only had the eleventh grade, it was the senior class. I went into

service in 1944. I was discharged in 1946. Ix stationed in Bainbridge,

Maryland and Banana River Naval Air Stationin Florid. Ih in the Navy. And

after I returned home, I started working for a contractor. I"s foreman i of

a right-of-way cre four years. Worked men over most of eastern part of
Rousq mo.6 iioi ker-
North Carolina. And then in 1950 I married the former xEdL Ma Lafr and

I quit working off and on and I startedAfarmg andI farmed up until 1958 and

I went back and I worked one more year construction work. I, I\ foreman of

a crew cutting right-of-way for natural gas line. And then I quitA Aias-
I b c%
we got through that, we came home, went back to farming and also part-time
i^~ LUrr\A-Ct-
work at a chain-saw shop or a chain-saw and- lumer. And I quit there in '62

and came home, went to farming on a larger scale. So I farmed up until 1970.

And there were ten projects funded by the National Division of the Methodist

Church for Minority Groups. And the American Indians received two and I'm
aA- 0tJJ
working in one of them/present time.

B: Okay, we want to get into more about your Methodist work but what about your

children? How many children do you have and give me their names.
eah I have five five children. I have one daughter
M: I= ~yeah, I have five, five children. I have one daughter, *miQ, 4 PC mi'O kec









LUM 27, Side 1 ---2---



M (cont.): t- 0C I have four boys at Prospect School, one in the

tenth, one in the eighth, one in the fourth, and one in the first grade.

B: Can you give me their names and ages without reading your paper?

M: Oh, I'm sorry. Man, this/ this is something else.

B: Got so many I thought you couldn't remember all of 'em.

M: Barbara, 20, Anthony, 16, Bryan, 13, Steven, 9, and Edwin, 6. So we feel

that they're doing right well in school. Barbara is going to be, she's

majoring in Home Economics. She's a junior at Sees Mek State.

B: And I'd like to talk more before we get inJo your being involved in so many

things, I'd like to know something more about your experience during your

education, your primary years if you can remember anything about the condi-

tions of the school, the faculty, what kind of set-up did you have in the
were
school that you wra going to?

M: Well the xxkhi schools that,I started to school in the fall 4 1932. We
wooden
were going in an oldAtwo-story building. It had five rooms, three on the

bottom and two upstairs. We were using the pot-bellied stove and the long

rectangular-shaped stovethat you used weod in sometimes.

B: I don't ever can't imagine what that looks like.

M: .'hat eight? We had it, it was a, and then we had desks, we had wooden desks,

not similar to the ones that we HEna they use today. But then on up in the
grade
second ay, we had a desk that three people sit together, three people on one

seat so you can imagine about ...

B: Everybody could make a good grade or a a bad grade.

M: Everybody, everybody on the same desk could make the same grade when you were

A right elbow to elbow. So this was in the second and third grade. We were

upstairs in the old wooden building. We had a stairway on the outside and

we had one on the inside of this building.

B: Where was this building located?










LUM 27, Side 1 ---3---



M: This building was located at Prospect/ Prospect Methodist Church owns the

property. Today, it is right below where this building's sitting xekg out
And
there. A#t that time we'd have to go out, you know, and get in the cold. We'd
all
have tD rake the snow and ice or ever what might be on it: to get our coal

there.

B: Can you remember your early teachers?

M: Yes, my first teacher that I went to in the first grade was Mrs. Marilee

Goins. She retired last year after teaching thirty-seven years. She was the

first one. I went to Mrs. ae Bulltin the second, Mrs. m eeHkKxEthe

third, Mr. Johnny Bullard in the fourth, Mr. David Lockeg^ Mr., Mr. Johnny

in the third, Mr. David in the fourth,Mr. Clement Bullard in the fifth, Mr.

David Locklehr again in the sixth, Mr. Lathamame in the seventh and then we

went on to high school.

B: And you said that when you graduated, the extent of the education was te

eleventh grade. What kind of preparation did these Hteachers have? How far

had they gone in school?

M: Well,I think some of them at that time had a four-year degree and some of

'em I think had a two-year normal degree. I'm not sure about that but I

think that was about the extent of it, you know. I know some of 'em did not

have a certificates, you know, back then. A lot of 'em didn't have.
if, wasn't
B: Well if,lyou started in 1932, waKxit after then takt that they really became

certified by the four-year institution?

M: Right, right, iEywe did have some teachers, you know, like Mrs. M

Bullard, she went back to college a e a years, you know, here a few years

ago before she started back teaching, you know, after she reared her family.

So some of 'em did, were not four-year college material.

B: And is your father the 9xEa same L. W. Moore that I read about who was res-









LUM 27, Side 1 ---4---



B (cont.): ponsible for the educational progress that the Indian people have

made?

M: No, my grandfather was W. L. Moore ...

N: W. L ...

M: L. W. Moore's father, my grandfather. He came from Columbus County back in

about 1880 and he was educated in South Carolina and he came up here selling

ibles walking through the country and he wan on to, up with a girl that he

liked and he married a kHxxmhinxmas Oxrane girl from Burnt Swamp. And then
And
he moved in the Prospect area somewhere shortly after he was married. A e

bought a farm/ hey Athe x land to the Prospect School. At that

time this land was bought for less than three dollars an acre.

B: Um, contrast with today.

M: Today you probably couldn't buy it for less than a thousand dollars an acre,

maybe more And I understand at thatkim time, he was getting about twenty-

five dollars a month to teach school.
that
B: And you said he was educated in South Carolina. Do you know the extent of

his education, your grandfather? A i

M: No. I don't. I understood that he had a college degree.A I'm not sure about

that, I'd have to check on that.

B: Well could you share with me any of the maybe traditional S9aHx stories

that you've learned from your father ab6ut your grandfather and his efforts

to get the N now Pembrooke State University going? Can you share with W.-

some of that?

M: Well, no more than, you know, back between 1835 and 1885, the Indian people

in SAtaumea-County had no formal education even though they were tax-payers.

The state did not spend any monies to support education as far as the Indian

people were concerned. So along with my grandfather and some more people

Indian leaders that were concerned, they did get five hundred dollars appro-









LUM 27, Side 1 ---5---



M (cont.): priated for this and I've always been told that my grandfather spent

some of his own money in this plus a year or so of work in trying to get

this school off the ground x and it opened in 1887 which is what Pembrofke

State today.

B: And he was the first teacher that institution.

M: Right, he was the first principal to have fifteen students and I imagine

they only had one teacher.

B: Wellm what about your higher education as far as high school, after your pri-

mary then high school, did you go to the same building EI for high school?

M: No, at that time, we had three buildings. ihad the old building and then

the old x two-story building, then we came over to a another wooden building

which had an auditorium in it and we stayed there from the fourth grade

through the seventh grade, then we would go to another four-room wooden

building which we're still using today this four-room highs school building

that I finished high school in where the county moved it over across the
We the
road. we're using it today for the seventh and eighthgrade, khtsProspect

School. So it was HH just a four-room building. j e had a microscope in

this building, you know, two of the lens were dead and the teacher was so

scared that you tear the third one up he wouldn't let you use it. So I

went to -/school tht- didn't they ws s't--ledto use t microscope.

B: Did all f the Indian% communities, ILm speaking of Fairgrove now and Mag-

nolia, did they have similar situations in those areas? I've heard my

mother say she came to Prospect but she was born in Fairmont so I wondered

if they had to come to this area if they got any formal training.

M: Well I understand, I don't knowbut our school started about 1932, our high

school prior to that our students w from Prospect went to Pembropke. You

know, they had the high school at the college then. So I think our high











LUM 27, Side 1 ---6---



M (cont.): school, I know my uncle, Charlie Moore, built a room onto his house in

order to board, room,Ahave a place for a white teacher that was imported here
And
to teach in high school, Miss Jordan. AFor a long time, they called that Miss

Jordan's room.

B: And your k children are now attending the school that you attended.
it's
M: Right,,just across the street.

B: Okay now we can get on ak to, this is really your interest,Aeducational pro-

cess, I'm aa aware of that, but let's talk some about your Methodist project

if you want to give us some of the background of that and then exactly what

your title is and what you do.

M: Okay, I'm going to readcihis year, it was funded by the Womens' Division Call

to Prayer and the Self-Denial Offering April, 1970, and the title of the pro-

gram is Indigenous Community Developer Program and the overview of program

goals are:to help certain congregations p K become more deeply involved in

community life; serving as ahactual xa base for real community leadership

such as:engaging in constructive social change through personal and team in-

volvement according to specific need, seeking social justice in communities
indigenous
throughxinigRxxgempowerment and development, strengthening certain congre-

gations of the United Methodist Church in their respective communities, as-

sisting the United Methodist Church develop stronger indigenous leadership.
into being
Now I understand that the reason this program came in t:k wnd was that the

Methodist Church from a national viewpoint felt that too long the minority

people had been left out and the churchh had xnot really been the church, you

know, that it should be. We should be concerned about the social life of

people and people being deprived or, you know, not having anequal opportunity

because of their race. So as a result of this, they funded ten projects and

this was the first time tkak these particular projects of this nature had










LUM 27, Side 1 ---7---



M (cont.): been funded. Now the3y;ad the Black Community Developer Program but

they'd k never had the Indigenous Community Developer Program. So we were
k)-- A--
in Chicago, started Septemberpfirst, 70, for a training session of one week.

And then we came back home andpgot involved in community life. Anything

we're, we're loose as far as giidAiriHs gidi guidelines. We can do any-

thing that will help the Lumbee people or help make our community a better

community/U- LAC) ...

B: Do you agree or do you share the common concept that maybe I can't really

support but I feel takt hatmayb heretofore the Indian people religious

affiliation has seemed to hinder our becoming involved and being concerned

about the whole man, that this has been one type of strategy that has been

sx used within us to keep us from being concerned and becoming a part of our

total community,, Jo you feel this in any way or have youx given any thought?

M: I feel thatwe have been real concerned with, you know, the Indian people

and their religious beliefs. I feel that we've been too conservative. We've

always been kth taught that it was the right thing to love people and we've

tried to do that but then on the other hand we, we haven't stood for some of

the things thatwe should have stood for to help our people. So really I feel

like that this is changing today, you know. Our younger people see things

different and the Methodist Church d sees things different. Along with this

it's been quite a bit of help to me, I served on the Executive Committee

of the North Carolina Conference Commission on Religion and Race during the

year 1971 and I'm servin4on the Commission again this year. And we have

talked quite a bit about racism. We've used the word white racism, Indian

people feel like they do most of the time 'cause of white racism. &85r this
you know, has
has beenAthe thing that controlled us somewhat even our education, politically,

a lot of other things, employment and, is the white racism.










LUM 27, Side 1 ---8---



B: Another thing I wanted to, you about, talking about the work that the

Methodist Church is doing here, the reason that I've felt like maybe the church

had somewhat hindered our being totally involved in the community or the coun-

ty or even the state and I guess I'm thinking back in my mind then from a po-

litical standpoint, is the fact that we have so many denominations and churches

within such a small radius of the county, do you have any concept of how many

denominations are represented among the Indian people?

M: No I don't. I know the Baptist is the largest and we have gsimhw e between

250 and 300 churches in County.

B: In ob4gunweCounty, for how many Indian people approximately?

M: Well, this is the whole county, all races.

B: For the whole county, which is about 89 thousand people.

M: Right, we have about 42, I believe, Baptist congregations alone and we have

about 10 Methodist. I know we must have somewhere between 75 and 100, some-

where in the neighborhood.

B: And do you have any knowledge that any of these other denominations are doing

anything for community developing in the areas like the Methodist ire involved?

M: If they are, I don't know, In fact, I'm the only indigenous community developer

in North Carolina.

B: I wanted to ask you a specific question. I was listening to some of the ob-

jectives of your program. HoIk or what have you been doing Im or trying to do

to develop team-work or to create self-initiative among the Indian people?
is to, to
This seems to be one of our greatest problems, / bring, raise people's standards

and make him want to raise his own standAds. How do you go about creating

your, what you call team-work or individual work, what do you do, try to make

the people do, to help themselves or just how do you go about your work, what

4d you, involvathem from day to day maybe I should say?










LUM 27, Side 1 ---9---



M: Well, let me go back and I'll give you little overview of what we've tried to
First,
do. AWhen I came back from Chicago a in September of '70, I got a little ques-

tionnaire and fixed it up andwent around Ue-the community, you know, asking

people questions, you know, maybe some of their interests, if they were inte-

rested in community involvement and out of this we found that we had a lot of

young men between the age of f and that were interested in doing something.
-U
So we decided to form a local Jaycee Chapter. So then we were chartered ind

October of 1970 and at the time we were chartered, we were the largest group

that had ever been chartered in North Carolina. We had a membership ai,

chartered membership of40 So then we start, we began to work and one of

our projects, we won in 1971 we got the plaque for the award for being the,

doing the most outstanding community project. We went down in South Carolina,

right across the line from North Carolina, where there was a group of Indian

peopleAreal poor and we rebuilt a church. We spent thirteen hundred dollars

of money that our men raised and we spent six hundred man hours.

B: This was the Jaycee group?

M: Right. This church was 25 miles from home but iC, in this church, only people

that they had attending were farm laborers and welfare recipients,.nd win

when we went there you could look up and see the sky or the clouds,ever what

happened to be over the parts of it, you know. And it was so cold in there you'd
you know, your
have to wear an overcoat ,never could take tkhEtopcoat off. So we won the

project of the year in our district and then on a statewide basis, we come

in second place.

B: And Jaycees from this area were also involved in our recent Lumbee Day for,

sponsoring a beauty queen, were they not?
our
M: Right and something else, you know,Aikd, going a back to the Jaycees, our

group sponsored Wakulla, which is five miles north of Prospect and then they









LUM 27, Side 1 ---10---



M (cont.): sponsored White Hill which is five miles west, south-west of Prospect.

And in iRin 1971, the Indian chapters, you know, they put all their votes

together. They decided that whoever run for president in North Carolina Jay-

ceeAthey would all vote together. And they had to decide in May. They had

enough of votes and they blocked them together, to elect a man.
that ab
B: And do you thinklthis is one thing that I've been questioned about you
or wsmeWL-c. t-a
think that it's good to have the many Jaycee groupsxkjat we da have wnaiARit

1 be better to have Wakulla dm and White Hill Jaycee groups consolidate

with Prospect, what do you think about this?

M: I think it's better to have the groups. I think it's better to have each group

in their respective KmmMwHxx community but then I think it's good that all tI6

three groups can come in and work together, you know. I think this gives,

really this was the purpose, we tried to get the boys up in Wakulla to join

in with us but they felt like they would like to have something in their im-

mediate community that they could do to help their community be a better com-

munityA PersonallyI hkkik feel like it's better to ah have the different

groups and then all of 'em _join forces together. I think we m get more

participation really.

B: I thinkve have several groups in the other areas like Magnolia, Fairgrove

and Pembrook has a large Jaycee group.

M: Right, right.

B: But what is encouraging is to learn that they do pool their efforts and then,

of course, they're more successful.

M: Right. Well this was the, you know, this was one of the ideas behind that.

It was not, it's not a political organization but our idea was that if we

could getja young men scattered all over the county in different groups like

this an in communities and then let them, they have what they call an Inter-

council Meeting each month kak that all the Jaycee chapters come in together










LUM 27, Side 1 ---11---



M (cont.): and they discuss problems in general, you know, like the Lumbee Home-

coming Day, they sponsored this. So really this is good. Now White Hill spon-

sored a new group over about five miles west of them ka, the Wilkerson Jayceesy
that
So we feel the more young men like this we can get in and they become more
about L. w 4..
awareuH what's really happeningqaxm ai AEgK tiKrCounty that they're g4na.

help bring change about.

B: Have any of these groups been helpful in our registration drive? I know they

don't get political use of it but I know that the Methodists had something to

do with the registration drive Kiafix before the last pi primary and some of

the Jaycees were approached. Was the Prospect Jaycees involved in this or

any to your knowledge?

M: They did some work in this and they've not been too political but n really

they don't discuss political things in their Jaycee meetings. But we're hoping

that this is Higm going to give us some good leadership in the future that

these young men will be able to help lead and guide our people. Now we can

see quite a3, you know, in some of ymr our young men that before they

didn't understand how to get up and conduct meetings and things of this nature

and today they're doing it. And here recently they're, they sponsored four

-ittleleague baseball teams at Prospect between the age of and .' ad- '

little boys in uniform playing baseball during the summer. This was one of

projectsc. Another project that they're putting on is Prospect Rural. Vol-
and the
unteer Fire Department and we're in the process.and We have our charter deeds
that's
for the land, n the process of being fixed up so that'll be something else

we could do.

B: Well this certainly seems to be a unique group of Jaycees. I just wish that

ewy -Jaycee e could take pattern after this because there's so many

things that can be accomplished when you have young men A ttare interested










LUM 27, Side 1 ---12---



B (cont.): in their, concerning their efforts together. But one other thing I

wanted to say concerning the Jaycees before I left it si is that one of your

objectives was to develop individuals so by being provocative and getting the

Jaycees started here in essence achieving your goal because they do train

ycung men like you say, to sa stand up and speak before a group and it

develops the individual as well as thk gxxz teaching them to be aware of com-

munity concerns.

M: Right, right and too, you know, something else along with this, I've had sev-

eral opportunities, you know, from different Jaycee Chapters to go and speak

to their groups and Aik the thing that I've been concerned about maybe most

was trying to make these young men aware of some of our conditions in RdO -

&e-.County. I felt like once they become aware of it then they'll be concerned

enough to try and make our county a better place for the Indian people to live.

B: Can you give me some explanation for a group like the Pembrooke Jaycees, for

example. My husband spoke to that group last night and he had a provocative

speech.i kkithng It was very good I thought, but what he was trying to do

is to just a get these boys moving on their own. Here we have a lot of college

graduates, most of 'em are teachers, many of them are in the business world and

most of them have some kind of public office if they aren't teachers but same

AaY- they are unaware of what's going on around them. Can you help me in under-

standing how our environment has produced citizens like this?

M: Hang on just a minute. I think this really that a lot of times,Indian people

in Rulren County and I've found this to be true in observation, that a lot
and )L.
of us, we were borned in Egypt ,we lived in Egypt,Aas soon as we got out of

Egypt we forgot the people back in Egypt. What I'm saying by that is we have

a lot of people that were borned in poverty and they had a hard time but today
they're educated,
things have changed. They've been able to go to school and akxx kky haxk










LUM 27, Side 1 ---13---



M (cont.): 1,hey have good jobs. They have nice brick homes. They have two cars or

a car and a pick-up and some of these people are in positions where they not

able to get involved due to the political structure of our county for they

realize that the ax# or the hatchet is over them. And then we have other people

that are just not really aware for they geota bed in a good warm home, good

warm house. They get out and they have4food to eat and they don't seem to be

too much concerned about the person that's not this fortunate. And I feel like

a lot of it is sEdA because of not being aware of the situation in the county.

They're, not jFusttied in with this type thing. To me, you know, really, I've

been involved in our community here for quite awhile but just opportunity to

get out and at do this is a daily ooccupation. I've probably learned more

about RIureean County in the last two years than I did in anyten or fifteen

year period before. And it's because I've had time to get around and as a

result of this, I'm more concerned t'lan I was before. I feel completely dif-

ferent kt from what I did even three, fourfive years ago. We have a lot of

people wha that still feel that you're supposed to get on your knees and beg

for the fkix things today that we should$had ten, fifteen years ago and at

one time maybe I felt this way somewhat. But today I don't feel this way.

The way I, that I really feel, that the minority people are going to have to

do things for themselves) TEky xAgoing to be issues) they'ree going to have

to force in order that change comes about.

B: Well this is going to be a slow process. Most likely, you won't live to see

t L.the change that we are now working for and possibly I may not.eut what

kind of positions do most of the Indians hold, those that have, say, a college

education? Do you have any idea what, how many of our axmpK people who have

finished college, what kind of vocations do they go into?

M: WellAit used to be where about the only thing they could do was teach school










LUM 27, Side 1 ---14---



M (cont.): and farm. The man that went through college, he taught school andn dA'y

farm he farmed.ut today, tzey. do have more vocations open. Wd have minis-

ters; we have college graduates in the ministry. But the majority of our
you know,
college graduates are still teaching school. By the way, we have two college

gradautes working at Lumbee Bank as tellers.

B: And you are affiliated4the Lumbee Bank in some capacity?
under
M: Well, try. I'm serving aa one of the Board of DirectorsAthe present time.

-- feel that this is something that's going to give our people more pride and
We e-r-um Le, that we have
dignity. S4m-Se a lot of people, you know, eoar B the Lumbee Bank ni
thought o \
never seen before. We khgath we knew people in and around^ V
from
but there's Indian people other places coming in because they're proud that

there's anIndian Bank that they can go toAdeposit their monies.

B: I want to get back to our political structure in a little bit but I wanted to
just
/learn a little bit more about the Lumbee Bank. When was the Lumbee Bank, I

know it was chartered the nineteenth of May last year because that was my

birthday and I was one of the ones who went to get the charter, but when did

we open up the first day for business?

M: I believe it was the twenty-third of January wasn't it, 1971? December.

B: December.

M: Right, twenty-third of December ...

B: And it's how, well let's see, it's how old then? This is September, nine?

M: It's about nine months old.

B: Nine months old. And have you any idea of how well we've progressed, just

generally, I don't expect you to ...

M: Well, we started off with about $670,000 and today our assets about two and

a half million roughly.

B: And this is,according to the banks, is this pretty ee growth?










LUM 27, Side 1 ---15---



M: Well, we think it is and our president feels that we're doing a real good job

and we have talked with some people from FDIC andfState Banking Commission. And

Tiey feel that our group is doing real well.

B: I heard that you had such a good business if you had any more ymn plkn ikn your

little mobile unit couldn't accommodate it.

M: Right, Ve-4 ae, by the way, we're the first bank that has ever been chartered
you know,
as a mobile unit. And we're the only Indian bank in the U.S. and we may be
4M. -ekA
the only bank that will ever H be chartered in a mobile unit js we don't

know. But we're in the process, we're, of building a building. We're hoping

to be in it sometime the first part of December this year.

B: And the Lumbee Bank is controlled by predominantly Indian Board. You have two
your
whites, ka4nattorney and the president.

M: Right.

B: And then the stock-holders are what, higher than 90% are Indian. Is that

correct?

M: Right, right.

B: So it's truly an Indian bank and we're, we're all equally proud of it. Unless
fM;' No 'aoO'A4
you have something else you want to say about the bank, I'll/go back to our

conversation talking about our teachers going into positions that they're some-

times frombecoming involved. But what about other positions other than teachers?

I know we got our first Indian lawyer to pass the North Carolina Bar recently.

We do have an Indian doctor. We have two Indian pharmacists we one of 'em I'm

really, really fond of since hels my husband, but what about positions in the

county for employment such as our city government, county government and even

state and federal xaxgxHxxmHEk employment in, within the county. Do we have a

fair shake in the employment as far as Indians are x concerned?

M: Well, let's look at the ratio, you know, really of, ior percentage of people.










LUM 27, Side 1 ---16---



M (cont.): Today,according to our 1970 census, we have about 84,000 people in Reaw

lawasn County. We feel that this is was, this shorted us though. We feel that

we have about 90,000. But of this group, we have about 30% are Indian people.

And in Rmli County, let me go back, in North Carolina, we have 152 school

systems. e. County, we haved There's 100 counties in North Caro-
kt-_Ls one hundreth and been able
lina. RaleTreen County is Hraxkafto support education financially and ....

B: One hundreth, i that means it's lowest?

M: It's on the bottom.

B: On the bottom.

M: On the bottom in the state of North Carolina. And so then we have six systems

in Ratamon County. 4W have fiveR city units, chartered city units. We have

one county unit.Up until the fall, September 1970, all the Indian children,

practically, were educated in the county system./ At this time, we have about

15,003students in the county system. We have an excess of mnsaxyL hundred

Indian students. But we did not have an Indian in, a decision, a high decision-

making position. We hkave/"men on the Board of Education. We had whites,

one black and one Indian. And we had never had an Indian on the Board of Ed-

ucation untilthe legislature added two members to ourm member board and made

it a/ member. And since they xr added these two, they've always been elected

since. But one of the things that we feel that has been detrimental to the In-

dianpeople in Renrhlon County is that they've not had an opportunity to steer

their own ship as far as education and a lot of other aspects. For we called

schools that we attended Indian schools ktx wxHxx but we've really never had

any Indian schools. We never had no control of 'em. Only thing we can do is
for
go there, learn about what was put out\sfzexx us. And we feel that one thing

that was really detrimental to our children was the fact that our schools were

controlled by the political structures of the town and the city units. The city










LUM 27, Side 1 ---17---



M (cont.): units had enough of political power to elect the Ralirean County Board

of Education. And then in turn, they turned around kk and elected their own

Board of Education without the people in the Renerm County School Adminis-

trative Unit participating. But even though we had Indian principals and In-
And
dian teachers, these people knew how far they could go. (X lot of timesff they

tried to go too far to promote things or really holler a)ut things that were

unfair to the Indian people, this would turn the Superintendent and the poli-

tical powers that were controlling them against them. And they, rn hmx they

knew how far they could go most of the time.

B: And we've actually had teachers who were removed because they would speak up

or try to do something actually for the betterment of the school or to better

educate the children. We've had teachers not return to their original places

or they've just been not given a job at all.

M: Well generally speaking though when a person gets involved and he sees things

are wrong, especially xxmwg a man in high position, and he tries to make a

change, they class him as a troublemaker. And you know, back in 1958, I believe

it was, somewhere h way back in there that Mr. Joseph Samson supported, no, it

was prior to '58, hat kH that he supported a black man from our district as

County Commissioner over a white man. He was a schoolteacher. And after that,

immediately after that, he moved to Ohio. He's been living up there ever since.

B: He was interested but smdRtkt suddenly he was turned off.

M: Yeah, he was turned off. And we have the xsa same thing even happening today.

You know people that used to call me Mr. Moore, they call me Harb and people
.--y-- k< P V),
used to think I's a pretty good boy, thinks daotV something that I'm not.

They think I'm radical and I'm not radical. All I'm concerned about is people

having an equal opportunity.










LUM 27, Side 1 ---18---



B: You were speaking about the ityt -help us elect our seven/man Board. This

is double voting. They vote on their Board for the i city unit and then they

vote on the County Board. Has anything been done as far as approaching our

legislators or anyone on the state level concerning this double voting issue?

M: Well there was a x group of ministers last year, we had one idax Indian minis-

ter and four white ministers and myself, we made a trip up to Raleigh and we

talked ith the twenty-foulcaucus district. We were in District 24 at that

time and we were talking along this line plus we were talking on merger too.

But really, you know, thesepeople see our condition but then they know they're

elected by the popular vote and if they get on our side to really do the thing

that would be right for us this could affect their position, their political

life really. So then, again later, about a month later, we were back up there

and this time there were about a hundred people from County and we

were trying to get the way the Board of Education was elected put on a district

base pf the same as the rmn County Commissioners are today. We have six dis-

tircts and we have seven Cpunty Commissioners. For Lumberton has enough pop-

ulation to gain two commissioners. So we were trying to get our seven-man

Board of Education elected the same way. And the city units were willing to
that
go along with it but the county unit opposed it. And they said\the chairman's

statement was read by Sam Stell our Associate Superintendent of County Schools.

The statement in there said that it would be utte ridiculous to elect a Board

of Education, Rauo n County Schools, any other way than the way that's elected

at present.

B: Why idi did he utterly ridiculous but did he expound any? Why would it be

utterly ridiculous? This is where the students come from who are recipients

of the system in the county.
you know,
M: Well, this is, we, we realize really that this is, I don't know but maybe it's










LUM 27, Side 1 ---19---



M (cont.): political powers or that the whites in the county system just don't

want to see the Indian people be in position to decide their destiny. This is
that
the thingewe feel and we don't want to feel but we know it's wrong. We're

trying to teach it to our yo"tg'people every chance we get that it's wrong,

that people should have an opportunity to decide t own destiny and this

is one of our problems in Rrau=ser County today. We haven't had that oppor-

tunity and we're not going to be given the opportunity. The only way we're

goiif to possibly get it we're going to have to force the issue.

B: And you said that this utterly ridiculous system ...












END SIDE 1










LUM 27, Side 2 ---20---
BEGIN SIDE 2



M: ... so that the Indian people woad stand a better chance then of electing pos-

siK sbly four people to the Raul e-en County Board of Education. And four out

of seven is the majority. So we feel that this would give us a better chance

to help determine what type schools we have. You know, justa coup]AAweeks ago

the city school units went on record as opposing merger and theirjeason was

HM that our buildings in the county system were in such condition that it would

take a lot of money to repair them and then they decided that we had inferior

education. They felt like they would be degrading their schools to come in

along ith ours. We knew, we feel that our children are just as important to

us as theirs is to them.

B: Why are you overtly interested in the educational system? I know you served

as a oard member abfore the community school when we had boards for each school

but what happened or what provoked you to have the in interest in our educa-

tion? I know you've got children but maybe there's something you could tell

me to help me see why maybe oH you were interested in candidacy as a Board

member.

M: Well, onYthing, you know, that really caused this, I've been involved in our
;,- U"-4-
schools and I know that prior to about 1968 or, no ik wa 1970, even though

the Indians composed of over sixty per cent of the students in the county

school system, we didn't have a single Indian high school accredited by the

Southern Association, school, colleges, you know, schools until Pembrofke High

was. It's been maybe three years ago now. But at this time, you know, prior

to that, Mr. and myself, we went down before our Superintendent and we

plead with him to give usafpportunity and we even went as far as to tell him

that if he would give us an opportunity and we failed we wouldn't ask him any

more.










LUM 27, Side 2 ---21---



B: This was Mr. BiaFrd 4ahI who was ...

M: Mr. 4-heA' .

B: ... principal.

M: ... who's principal of Prospect School. This was in about 1963 when Mr. B. F.

Littlefield was Superintendent of i County Schools. And then I

served on the study commission on the merger deal in 1970 and I found out some

more things that caused me to become more concerned about our schools. Now

Oral High School which was smaller than any Indian high school we had in the

county was accredited by the Southern Association in 1959. Littlefield High

School was a new high school they built about six miles east of L/mberton and

it was an all white school at the time they built it. It was accredited by

the Southern Association in 1961. So we realize that if we could get Prospect

accredited that we would get supplies and equipment like we hadn't had before.

This was our main interest, you know, in getting Prospect accredited. as at

this particular time i Pembro/ke High School, their principal did not have

the necessary credentials to get accredited with. So we felt like we would

be the first Indian school but we couldn't get the opportunity. Let me quote

you a few facts, Brenda, why I'm concerned about education. This came from

Division of Research and Planning in Raleigh. This was headed by Dr. Pierce

and he hada lot of educators gathered over from different parts of the state

Kk helping in this. But this is a graph here that came out of the survey that

they made when they were trying to determine whether we should merge or not.

And by the way the people that did this said the only thing thatxxmma could

possibly be fair and be beneficiary to all children in Ranuersn County would

be that we dissolve theksix systems and have one system and have four high

schools, senior high schools, we would kh have somewhere between 1700 and 2000

students in each of these high schools and the only remaining high school we










LUM 27, Side 2 ---22---



M (cont.): would use today is as a senior high would be Lumberton High. So let

me quote you a few figures here. I'm going to only quote the, this is 1968,

and the only figures I'm going to quote are the ones that enter'a four-year

college or university. I'm going to give it to you by districts and then I'm

goin4to give you the percentage of their students and the percentage that went
into from
directlyiA the labor market after graduating afxExhigh school. And before

we get on that, you know in 1964 we had 1278 students in RPtbas County

Schools in the eighth grade. In 1968 when these students finished high school,
of 'em ,/oe_.e1 -.t
we had 667/to go through and graduate which is 52 So somewhere along the

line ....

B: Who finished high school.

M: Finished high school.

B: Tki pKxniKxHix F4iy-eit -percent.

M: Now this was 52% of the students that were in the eighth grade in 1964. Now

what I'm going to give you is the percentage of the students that entered,

enrolled in a four-year college or university, we don't know how many of 'em ...

B: The per cent of the 52.

M: Right, right.

B: You had 600 students. So of that 600 students ...

M: 667.

B: ... how many went on to higher education.

M: Right, okay. And I'm going to, we only had 14.21 of the 52% to go on and

enter a four-year college or university, to enroll. So we don't know how many

if HEan mayh finished, maybe, I don't know, maybe half of that 14N. But

this was the County School Unit. The, we sent directly into the

labor market out of high school, when they graduated from high school, 43q /--*./

of our students.










LUM 27, Side 2 ---23---



B: Do you have nviae.a of knowing khax now of this 14 from the district, they,

can you determine how many were Indian or whaty...

M: Nof...

B: ... some general?

M: ... I'm not able to tell how many were Indian of this group. But I do know

that over 601 of the population of the -Reulerson County School Unit at that

time were Indian children.

B: 60b '_

M: 60/. So we feel fairly safe in saying that more, the whites hadl higher per-
Red
centage of going on iato college. But let me,xeag Spring School Unit, they

S had were, they had 361 to enter a four-year college.and They had 2Q to go

into the labor market. Maxton School Unit had 42% to enter a four-year col-
into
lege and they had 22% xkAthe labor iiarket. St. Paul's School had 28% to

enter a four-year college and they had 29% to enter the labor market. Fair-

mont had 24% to enroll in a four-year college, 23% into the labor market.

Lumberton, which is the capital n County, had 32%, 32.9 to enter

four-year college and 15% into the labor market. So what we're really saying

is that our unit was lowest and we id didn't have an opportunity, you know, a

to really in the high positions, to make our schools better. Now today the

people that are presently serving, we have a Superintendent Associate, the

Superintendent is white. The Associate is white. We have two assistants.

The first assistant is Business Manager. And the next assistant is Albert

Hump, which is Indian and he is Coordinator of Title One which is a federal

program. So we feel that we really need somebody up in some of these higher

positions. Now going back to, this was one of my reasons for running for

the Board of Education. And going back to the double voting, there's five

city units and the county unit all vote for the County Board of










LUM 27, Side 2 ---24---



M (cont.): Education. So I'm going to quote some figures here and you'll see why

we're real unhappy about this. Now these are the city votes alone. We were

able to do this due to precinct? and district lines. We were able to pick out

the city, the people that li
from the county school unit by using k a county precinct map and a county map

with Rk the school lines drawn on it. It's kind unique to look that a, you

know, to see that the three white incumbents that's presently serving all re-

ceived in excess of 4000 votes in the city units alone. And neither of these

people received as many as 3000 votes in the county unit. But then the three

Indian people that were running, Harbert Moore, ------and Ai-nJtl-

Holmes, received in the county unit alone in excess of 3500 votes. So what

I'm saying there is that the people that live in the county unit would have

been electingheir Board of Education, we'd all been in office. So let me
here
quote you one4right quick. The, Mr. McCormack which is the Chairman of our

Board present, received 4779 votes in the city units alone. Moore received

2260. Aid by the way, Ii the lowest vote-getter in of anyin the city units.

McCormack received 2860 out of the county unit which he is chairman of; and

Moore received 3675.

B: Um-hum. And you received around 2000, you said, in the city.

M: 2260.

B: Compared to where he got his. So he got his greater vote in the city.

M: He beat me by 2519 votes in the city alone.

B: So if the city didn't vote on our Board of Education, we'd have three going in

this time instead of.MissAileen Holmes going in alone.

M: Right, right.

B: What accounts for her success possibly? Do you have any projection arou

I mean, how did she do in the county? Maybe if you have figures on that you










LUM 27, Side 2 ---25---



B (cont.): could, I just wondered, what kind of support did she get.

M: Well she did, she did well in the county. Mrs. Holmes received, she received

3100 and some votes, oh, they have it right here. She received 3161 votes in

the city unit.

B: In the city.

M: Now we feel fataybe there could be a possibility, this is a possibility,

that her name might have fooled some people. This is a white name. And so,

but Moore, I have been involved with our school affairs more than she had and

we feel that maybe this had some ...

B: Well if ...

M: ....i / _

B: ... if it happens to us, like we voted for certain candidates because they

had the name Hunt and this is a real Indian name andAanother one whogot good

support among the Indians was a Brooks and this possibly could be the answer.

But I just wondered what could have made the difference there. Now as far as

other areas of the political stqIcture, like I wanted you to tell me something
determines
about the appointed positionsxal or something, whohKwmKs this or maybe the,

just expound a little bit on another area, for example, the County Commissioners.
We've
MaH2MEahad a little success there recently and your idea that if we voted on

the school like we did the Commissioners, we very well may have had yourself
from
as axaxx member because ixyour district, we do.have a County Commissioner who

is serving his second term?

M: Right.

B: Mr. Herman Dial who is the first Indian County Commissioner?

M: Second. Tracyq- Vrof served two terms which was eight years before Herman

was elected.

B: But he is from the same district.










LUM 27, Side 2 ---26---



M: Right, right.

B: He's from the same district as Mr. Dial, Herman Dial and this is the district
gone on the Board
from which Hm you come and possibly could have4or would have according to the
units
votes had the city not been allowed to vote on you. What about our new Com-

missioner over in the Red Springs district, do you want to talk to me a little

bit about him, Bobby Dean -Bhde y?

M: Well, we feel really that this was something five, even two, three, four, five

years ago, we didn't think it could be done but Bobby Dean was a successful

in defeating probably the, the strongest white candidate people felt like was

in Reon County ere he served on the Board of Commissioners for a lcQg)

time. He was Chairman for quite awhile. W But we seen a little revolution

in our, the political structure of our County Commissioners here in the last
or
three4 four, five years. And as a result of that, the Indian people have

been able to reap some benefits from this, you know. Just recently we had a

man that was put into the tax office, Tax Supervisor, and he was the first In-

dian that had ever been employed in the county courthouse as head of a de-

partment in Lumberton. So we feel that this has helped open the door. But

too, we also feel that because of moves like this some of the whites were

defeated in their ....

B: Their candidacy. Like the Chairman, the old Chairman of the Board of Commi-

ssioners ...

M: Board of Commissioners.

B: ... was defeated.

M: And we feel that it was moves like shee that helped defeat him. For there was

whites in the county that said, you know, that, they said, friend, being a

friend to these people and we feel, I think he feels himself somewhat that

this had something to do with it. For we have discussed these, you know.










LUM 27, Side 2 ---27---



B: Can you look at the way that James Jacobs, the new Tax Supervisor, was elected

by the County Commissioners and see what the Indian influence did in that?

The Commissioners th voted yes for James Jacobs, the districts that they

come from, are they not heavily Indian populated?

M: Right, right, right.

B: Wellington comes from the St. Paul's district and he was one of the ones who

voted for James Jacobs. Herman Dial of course, the Indian on the Board. And

what about Howard Cooper, the one who was defeated?

M: Well Howard ...

B: He had to break the tie.

M: ... bward and SamNNe4- out of Lumberton, the Indians don't have as much to do

withE electing them as they did Doug Wellington out of St. Paul's. Now rids

they were the determining factor in Doug's race as to whether he went into

office or not. But Howard and Sam, they, the Indian people would not be, I

don't think, but then on the other hand, this is kindly of a political kimng

maneuvering, you know, like politicians do, and these people had been working

together and Sam Nobel told me himself he said that Pete Jacobs was doing an

excellent job. He was a good man, he was smart and he was doing an excellent

job in the Tax Department and he felt that that was ctkof the best moves that

they had ever made. They integrated the court-house and also they were getting

a first-class job. So we, we contend that all the Indian people need is an

opportunity to prove themselves and see what they can do.

B: And I think b Qause our educational system si is in such a K very bad condition

is the reason why we don't have the self-initiative to go and seek out these

positions and prove that we are a mnaxiH qualified people if we are just

given the chance to show our potential.










LUM 27, Side 2 ---28---



M: Well a lot of times we have the self-initiative but the dooes closed on us

before we get in there, you know. If you're going in out of the rain, you

first have to get he door open and this has been one of the problems in Rett-

lees.n County. The door has been closed before we could get in and really

prove ourselves.

B: Well in the last ten years, maybe a little longer, since the integration move-

ment came about and agencies have almost been forced to hire different races,

in our county because of the harrassiment and the negative attitude kthEy ka
the
that they had been confronted with before integration, do you think this ac-

counts for Indians not applying for jobs now that maybe some of the doors are

open? I've often had officials say thadthey would hire Indians but the Indians

don't apply. How can you and I rebuttal a situation like this?

M: Well Ka let me rebuttal it like this, you know, a lot of times our people

feel maybe, you know, that there's, well the door's closed ;and maybe it's

really not closed but too often when you go to apply for a jobs, even like in

stores or places like this, they tell you that they want qualified people and

they want people with experience. So when they say people with experience,

this cuts us out right there for we have never been in position to get exper-

ience,9 Just like today, you know, we, our Social Service Director of ue

eer County Social Service resigned. Well I don't think we have an Indian per-

son that could fill that position. We have ...

B: How long had she been thFngh ? That's one of the questions I wanted to bring

up about Mrs. aR.eee.

M: I don't remember. I know it's been ...

B: It was in the, in the paper recently.

M: ... it's close to, between fifteen and twenty years. But the reason that we

don't have anybody. They are supposed to have so much experience along this










LUM 27, Side 2 --29--



M (cont.): line and we don't have anybody tha as the experience. We do have a
r-
people that has enoughjeducation but they don't have the experience. And this

applies to the ha black people also.

B: What about employees that work in that office maybe that have, could have

trained for this? Do we have Indian people who work under Mrs. Vitu who may-

be might have it a little difficult but could move up in her position? What

about the ....

M: Not at this time. Now you see, I don't know how many we have but in 1971, in

April of '71, we only had4Indian person working axmid an in, in a professional

job in social service. For at that time we had 60 people employed in social

service, we had five Indians, we had one Indian in the topJ positions and

we hadl Indians in the top& positions, the low, the a lowest positions.

So really this person is still a social worker. I don't remember whether

it's one or two but they would never. You see the state sets standards that

a director has to meet and I was in the Deputy-Director's office of Social

Service in April of 1971 in Raleigh and we were trying to find out some

things about Tu n County social service. And he told Harold Woods and

myself that the mna Merit State Test was oriented for the middle-class

whites and our minorities had a problem with it. This includes the Indian

and the black, you know, red. So this is one of the problems, they have to,

you know, they have to pass this state test and this is one reason that we're

really concerned about k education for first, they have to be educated. And

we do have a lot of people that could pass this test but they're not concerned, f

because they feel that the work would be so hard on them and httthe way
advancement
wouldn't be open for them to make the progress oraxiranxa that they should
People that
but they're not interested in it really.\Ehe could pass it.

B: So what, how do the figures compare with the Indian employees at the Social










LUM 27, Side 2 ---30---



B (cont.): Services compareawith the Indian recipients of the services there? What

kind of percentage or do you have any idea?

M: Well, the only, I have all of it H but I don't have it with me.

B: Just generally, can you?

M: I can give you one good one. In 19, in February of 1971, you know, I said

we had people employed there, we had five Indians, onin the top -pitions

and four in the lowest( positions and iB at that particular time we had 4300
nA-
Indian people receiving food stamps. We had 4900 black, 1200 white and we

didn't have a single nona-white working Food Stamp Department. Now

today, I x don't know how it is.

B: Well, I've often been confronted with the fact that if we have girls or In-

dians who come and apply and they're qualified they, they could easily get

the job. But you know, I feel like that everything we've had to get, we've

had to go to the white man to get it. His clothes until recent years, most
just
of the grocery stores, gasoline, insurance,axndeverything we had to do, we

had to confront a white man and now though we are getting Indian men in these

official capacities, it's gettinE little easier for us but we can't easily

forget that we didn't want to go confront him if we didn't have to. So if

we can teach school and have a fairly comfortable living, xknffnx most often

we've been complacent to accept that rather than to, to ahxa have to take

some negative response or even stick our nefC out or jeapordize our posi-

tion a little bit in order to help all of 'em as a total Indian family. We

maybe a little bit selfish in this respect, maybe not our own fault. I like

to think that it's because we aren't really aware that our brother is in such

desperate conditions sometimes.

M: Well I think that's it. I think we're not aware and too, people like to kind

be secure, youhkow, from an economical standpoint. We like to be secure to










LUM 27, Side 2 ---31---



M (cont.): take care of our families and we're aware, too, that if we get involved

too much in trying to upset the structure of RmilOun County and fail to do

it, then we could not be SamHxn so secure if we're depending on employment

where the political structures have anything to do with it, you know.

B: Do you feel as hopefu4as I do that change is taking place?And we all have to

face it, it's political, whatever realm of our life we might want to study.

But I think the Indian people are becoming aware and I'm real happy to say

because we've had so many public officials resign for, if for no other evidence,

like in the board of elections, because Indians are beginning to register and

hopefully will exert more and more of this ki&n power. We had a, the Executive

Secretary who had been in that position for thirteen or %/years and suddenly

she resigned. 7T the woman who worked under her resigned and various posi-

tions in the county, people are, for some reason trying to get out of because

we, maybe we are beginning to threaten the bureaucratic system in our county

a little bit because we're becoming involved. Do you feel positive about this

kind of change?

M: Well I feel this way about power to any group of people, whether it's a minor-

ity group for political power or poor group for self-determination, power is

not gven. Nobody gives power. If you, if ya he's going to give it to you, he

can also take it away. So the only way ayou really get power is by forcing

the issue or really xp plsi pushing and, you know, getting it for yourself.

For people just don't go around giving people power.

B: Right. Another thing I think that I'm pleased about is that we seem to have

a great pride of our Indianness in the last few years and hopefully this is

having some kind of unifying effect because, like you say, nobody is going to

give us power. And until we let our power be felt, we're not going to progress.

And I have no knowledge of any national candidate ever coming, especially a










LUM 27, Side 2 ---32---



B (cont.): presidential candidate ever coming and recognizing the gH group of In-

dians in Raleo n County until this last year. And more and more candidates

are becoming aware that even though it's just 10680 registered Indians in this
could
county, that sometimesAxKa be the turning point for an election. And we're

getting a iikl little more attention now from a political standpoint Do

you share this idea?

M: Well, what we're trying to do, Brenda, we're trying, you know, and my interest

along this line is this, thatre have our, we see things diffmxt different, you

know. We do our own thinking and we see things different as Indian people.

But then we don't separate, you know, we're still able to unite our strength

together for one common cause and that is the cause ka to help all people, you

know, help make R8 reen County a better county. And I feels I travel around

in the county today takk that this is true a lot more today than it was maybe

even five years ago or ten years ago. People are beginning to realize, you know,

that if they get things, they're going to have to really get out and work for

it. We're going to have to work for these things just like we work to get

paid on Saturday, you know. If you sit in the house all day Monday, Tuesday

and on through Friday, the man don't pay you. So we're beginning to realize

that if we get things along the political line or things for self-determination,

we're going to have to get out and work for them just like we do our pay-
I mean,
check. And this is a way of life, you know, for me. 2?his is some of the thing

that I'm doing every chance I get. And I'm telling our young and old and mid-

dle-age, you know, that we're going to have to do these things for ourself

with nothing against no int"rvrnetn, we just feel that we should be treated
Y And
as other people are treated. ,his is all we want.

B: Well this ispevident, that the young people are thinking down this line be-
in
cause last night I was iaAa meeting and a young man, possibly about my age,










LUM 27, Side 2 ---33---



B (cont.): about thirty years old, spoke of an offer a candidate had made, to give

him $1,000 and he could've taken the $1,000 and have worked among his people

for this candidate, but he wpHS kHE xpxEKxKA would, he had, he expressed the

attitude that he would have been selling himself and his people down if he

had put this in his pocket and not worked for the better government for all

the people. So it was really impressive to see such honesty because I know

that's a lot of money for a 8m of mnn young man thirty years old who really

wouldn't have a whole lot to lose if Eh he didn't xa have a family and he's

in school but I knew he could use this money. But I was real pleased to hear

a thiry-year-old Indian man say that he didn't want pay-offs from the poli-

ticians. He wanted to get something that he wouldn't be owing or he wouldn't

be paid off.Now he could still ask the services of that politician after he

got in office. Where if he's paid hif when he gets in there, he doesn't

owe him anything. But he owes us his service once he gets in there.

M: Well this Ixa is probably one of the reasons we're in the condition we're in
you know.
today,1 And We have been sold at various times and this is the thing that we're
hoping
khapitngto get our people away from. And really we feel that they're away

from it today. We may still have a few people that would do things of that

nature but basically I feel the i average Indian person in Raulreea County

today, his vote is not up for sale. I feel thahe is going to vote for the

individual that le feels will help his people most and I'm real proud of this.
A
I'm glad I feel this way. And we're trying to teach and talk or anything else

we can do along this line, you know, to get people to thinking this way more.

But one thing we're going to have to do is get a higher percentage of our

Indian people to the polls.

B: We've got ten thousand registered and if we can, over the nation, I know it

was low last time, but if we could get more than 50X to vote, wE midH which









LUM 27, Side 2 ---34---



B (cont.): has been much the history of our past, then we definitely could let

our power be felt.

M: Right.

B: Well, is there any other area?

M: I believe that'll do it. When, when I get this other, then I can give you some

whoee facts, you know,-

B: Well I look forward to talking to you more when you get your studying, your

graphs more precisely together and mainly in your mind. And I've really en-

joyed talking with you and I hope that we can talk again. And I have been

interviewing Mr. Harbert Moore at Prospect Methodist Church about three miles

from Pembrofke and tday is September 21. And I hope to be sending more tapes

shortly.

M: By the way, let me throw this in, we have the largest Indian church in the

nation.

B: This is a member of the church of which Mr. Simeon Cumminglis Pastor. I think

we have forwarded a tape of Mr. Cummings already. So Mr. Moore is a very active

not only in the county but in the church. He has an extremely good church-

going record. He has missed two Sundays in how many years?

M: IAJ.Cc-r a

B: Nineteen years. But I think there's more to him than just being a good church-

goer. I thank the Lord for him and I wish we had more Indians that would

stand up and be counted by his side.







END OF TAPE





Full Text

PAGE 1

Interview with Harbert Moore by Brenda Brooks, 9/21/72 LUM 27, Side 1 Brooks: family history, who you are, your parents, your immediate family also. Moore: And age and everything? B: Right. M: I'm Harbert Moore. Lincoln Moore was my father. Nora Moore was my mother. B: M: B: x wxx Born June 6, 1926. ~Moore? Nora. Nora. M: N-o-r-a. Nora. And I attended Prospect School. I graduated in 1943. At that time, we only had the eleventh grade, it was the senior class. I went into \A'-q...-0/ service in 1944. I was discharged in 1946. I~ stationed in Bainbridge, L,V-OA-' Maryland and Banana River Naval Air Station;XH Floridj:' I~ in the Navy. And l.-a....v working for a contractor. I"'s.,_foreman x of ,~ I}worked men over most of eastern part of after I returned home, I started a right-of-way cre~ur years. Rosq Mo.e. ~ 1 ockkJ-.c in 1950 I married the former...r:0Ra WaQ bef@P@ and North Carolina. And then I quit working off and on G\ .~!'\ and I startedAfarm~ andAl farmed up until 1958 and VACL.,_,, I went back and I worked one more year construction work. I, r, foreman of a crew cu~ting right-of-way for natural I bC\tK we got through that, WH\came~home, went gas line. And then I a~+-er quit,A back to farming and also part-time ;,,.,,.,, Lv r(\ \::t.d-CV\, work at a chain-saw shnp or a chain-saw aul 17oifRber And I quit there in '62 and came home, went to farming on a larger scale. So I farmed up until 1970. And there were ten projects funded by the National Division of the Methodist Church for Minority Groups. And the American Indians received two and I'm u-UJ-. working in one of them~present time. B: Okay, we want to get into more about your Methodist work but what about your M: children? o~lv 'lliiiF yeah, How many children do you have and give me their names. I have five, five children. ul\niof ./'l I have one daughter, ~.-1 i..Q..rnk-rokc...

PAGE 2

LUM 27, Side 1 ---2--M (cont.): I have four boys at Prospect School, one in the B: M: tenth, one in the eighth, one in the fourth, and one in the first grade. Can you give me Oh, I'm sorry. their names and ~/ Man, this;, this ages without reading your paper? is something else. B: Got so many I thought you couldn't remember all of 'em. M: Barbara, 20, Anthony, 16, Bryan, 13, Steven, 9, and Edwin, 6. So we feel that they're doing right well in school. Barbara is going to be, she's (t_,_,..tj:•'J)'-k_r,,,. majoring in Home Economics. She's a junior at St!tl!i~ck State. .,,.... B: And I'd like to talk more before we get iILJ:o your being involved in so many things, I'd like to know something more about your experience during your education, your primary years if you can remember anything about the conditions of the school, the faculty, what kind of set-up did you have in the were school that you x~going to? M: irA, Well the KKksi schools that,I started to school in the fall~ 1932. We wooden were going in an oldAtwo-story building. It had five rooms, three on the bottom and two upstairs. We were using the pot-bellied stove and the long rectangular-shaped stovekhat you used weod in sometimes. r,JA-..V.,,.,.t---f.,.Vv') \ B: I don't eve!}\ can't imagine what that looks like. M: .}tihatri.ght? We had it, it was a, and then we had desks, we had wooden desks, not similar to the ones that MR HKEH they use today. But then on up in the grade second~~, we had a desk that three people sit together, three people on one seat so you can imagine about B: Everybody could make a good grade or a a bad grade. M: Everybody, everybody on the same desk could make the same grade when you were A right elbow to elbow. So this was in the second and third grad~. We were upstairs in the old wooden building. We had a stairway on the outside and we had one on the inside of this building. B: Where was this building located?

PAGE 3

LUM 27, Side 1 ---3--M: This building was located at Prospecty Prospect Methodist Church owns the property. And there. Jl/..t Today, it is right below where this building's sitting x~kx out that time we'd have to go out, you know, and get in the cold. We'd all have to rake the snow and ice or ever what might be on it to get our coal there. B: Can you remember your early teachers? M: Yes, my first teacher that I went to in the first grade was Mrs. Marilee Goins. She retired last year after teaching ~JcJ-, /J.{.,_t_,Lo..A..tl., first one. I went to Mrs. flalletitr the third, Mr. Jiohnny Bullard in the fourth, Mr. thirty-seven years. She was the..;:? 1eeltl@ftl! -/' .P •-,•.r-~ rA 0-d;..to.0-1>..J second, Mrs. .1.?.o.,v David Lock~, Mr. , Mr. Johnny in the third, M~. David in the fourth,Mr. Clement Bullard in the fifth, Mr. J..1:.o--,.,/ David Lockfetrr again in the sixth, Mr. Lathamame in the seventh and then we went on to high school. B: And you said that when you graduated, the extent of the education was~ eleventh grade. What kind of preparation did these eteachers have? How far had they gone in school? M: Well,I think some of them at that time had a four-year degree and some of 'em I think had a two-year normal degree. I'm not sure about that but I think that was about the extent of it, you know. I know some of 'em did not B: have a certificates, if, Well if,~you started you know, back then. wasn't in 1932, mIKAit after certified by the four-year institution? A lot of 'em didn't have. then xxkx that they really became M: Right, right, :idnqc:~we did have some teachers, you know, like Mrs. ~u,., U.-'"-~-U~-f Bullard, she went back to college a eo~pla years, you know, here a few years ago before she started back teaching, you know, after she reared her family. So some of 'em did, were not four-year college material. B: And is your father the xxe:m same L. W. Moore that I read about who was res

PAGE 4

LUM 27, Side 1 ---4--B (cont.): ponsible for the educational progress that the Indian people have made? M: No, my grandfather was W. L. Moore N: W. L. M: L. W. Moore's father, my grandfather. He came from Columbus County back in about 1880 and he was educated in South Carolina and he came up here selling J fibles walking through the country and he~ on to, up with a girl that he .f'J . 1 t L, ,' 'f.,-ff..,..L..,,/.,,, ,..) liked and he married a kuxmakxxe,~~~odise girl from Burnt Swamp. And then And Prospect area so~ewhere shortly after he was married. A'j!e he moved in the bought a farm/ ~ '\ B'iilnotd .. I\ the :bui land to the Prospect School. At that time this land was bought for less than three dollars an acre. B: Um, contrast with today. M: Today youp:-obably couldn't buy it for less than a thousand dollars an acre, maybe morel.Ana I understand at thatk:im time, he was getting about twentyfive dollars a month to teach school. that B: And you said~he was educated in South Carolina. Do you know the extent of M: his education, your grandfather? A j ''E: r'"\Q.. ntt. lA, '., 1~ A No. I don't. I understood that he had a college degree.II I'm not sure about that, I'd have to check on that. B: Well could you share with me any of the maybe traditional XXNXH stories that you've learned from your father about your grandfather and his efforts to get the M now Pembro~ke State University going? some of that? Can you share with 'IN!,. M: Well, no more than, you know, back between 1835 and 1885, the Indian people /?,!J-(J,1c,4,()--v<..,; in ,B!a:J ta County had no formal education even though they were tax-payers. The state did not spend any monies to support education as far as the Indian people were concerned. So along with my grandfather and some more peopl~ Indian leaders that were concerned, they did get five hundred dollars appro

PAGE 5

LUM 27, Side 1 ---5--M (cont.): priated for this and I've always been told that my grandfather spent some of his own money in this plus a year or so of work in trying to get this school off the ground Hand it opened in 1887 which is what Pembro~ke State today. '.,. B: And he was the first teacher~ that institution. M: Right, he was the first principal to have fifteen students and I imagine they only had one teacher. B: Wellm what about your higher education as far as high school, after your pri mary then high school, did you go to the same building me for high school? li!,':C. M: No, at that time, we had three buildin~s. fJi/1 had the old building and then the old K two-story building, then we came over to a'uother wooden building which had an auditorium in it and we stayed there from the fourth grade through the seventh grade, then we would go to another four-room wooden building which we're still using today this four-room highs school building that I finished high school road.3/fe 1 re using it today School. So it was uu just a in where the county moved it over across the the for the seventh and eighthgrade, kxR~Prospect f'J, four-room building.~}efe had a microscope in this building, you know, two of the lens were dead and the teacher was so scared that yoJ~ear the third one up he wouldn't let you use it. So I ~.t,, /,_t.--. 1.,,,,.v/,_u ~.I(N-e<-4,.,J a,_, went ~Aschool t:ircrt-didn'SJ,-they ,,aen-'t~to use~ microscope. B: Did all a/. the Indian, communities, Ir.m speaking of Fairgrove now and Mag nolia, did they have similar situations in those areas? I've heard my mother say she came to Prospect but she was born in Fairmont so I wondered if they had to come to this area if they got any formal training. M: Well I understand, I don't know)but our school started about 1932, our high school~ 8rior to that our students w from Prospect went to Pembro,ke. You know, they had the high school at the college then. So I think our high

PAGE 6

LUM 27, Side 1 ---6--M (cont.): school, I know my uncle, Charlie Moore, built a room onto his house in J.Y~C k/\Uy1.,.r; order to board, room,Ahave a place for a white teacher that was imported here And to teach in high school, Miss Jordan. AFor a long time, they called that Miss Jordan's room. B: And your k children are now attending the school that you attended. it's M: Right,l\just across the street. B: Okay now we can get on sx to, this is really your interest,t~ducational pro cess, I'm xx aware of that, but let's talk some about your Methodist/roject if you want to give us some of the background of that and then exactly what your title is and what you do. M: Okay, I'm going to read~'this year, it was funded by the Womens' Division Call to Prayer and the Self-Denial Offering April, 1970, and the title of the pro gram is Indigenous Community Developer Program and the overview of program goals are:to help certain congregations_. R become more deeply involved in community life; serving as ahactual xk base for real community leadership such as:engaging in constructive social change through personal and team in volvement according to specific need, seeking social justice in communities indigenous through~ugRsusgempowerment and development, strengthening certain congregations of the United Methodist Church in their respective communities, as sisting the United Methodist Church develop stronger indigenous leadership. into being Now;I understand that the reason this program came,H xkR RH was that the Methodist Church from a national viewpoint felt that too long the minority people had been left out and the fhurch had xnot really been the church, you know, that it should be. We should be concerned about the social life of people and people being deprived or, you know, not having ar\,equal opportunity because of their race. So as a result of this, they funded ten projects and this was the first time xkxx these particular projects of this nature had

PAGE 7

LUM 27, Side 1 ---7--M (cont.): been funded. Now the~~ad the Black Community Developer Program but they'd k never had the Indigenous Community Developer Program. So we were ft1 in Chicago, started September~first,~ 1 70, for a training session of one week. ? . And then we came back home andfgot involved in community life. Anything we're, we're loose as far as gHxiiHibHs gHxiii guidelines. We can do any thing that will help the Lumbee people or help make our community a better community) B: Do you agree or do you share the common concept that maybe I can't really support but I feel xax~ heretofore the Indian people~religious affiliation has seemed to hinder our becoming involved and being concerned about the whole man, that this has been one type of strategy that has been me used within us to keep us from being concerned and becoming a part of our ;Jr total community,,]o you feel this in any way or have youx givenAany thought? M: I feel tha~we have been real concerned with, you know, the Indian people and their religious beliefs. I feel that we've been too conservative. We've always been xkH taught that it was the right thing to love people and we've tried to do that but then on the other hand we, we haven't stood for some of the things that~ should have stood for to help our people. So really I feel like that this is changing today~ you know. Our younger people see things different and the Methodist Church H sees things different. Along with this it's been quite a bit of help to me, I served on the Executive Committee of the North Carolina Conference Commission on Religion and Race during the year 1971 and I'm servin~on the Commission again this year. And we have talked quite a bit about racism. We've used the word white racism, Indian people feel like they do you know, has most of the time 'cause of white racism. ~7Yi. this has/been~the thing that controlled us somewhat even our education, politically, a lot of other things, employment and, is the white racism.

PAGE 8

LUM 27, Side 1 ---8---L,o ?-~,.1-K B: Another thing I wanted you about, talking about the work that the M: B: M: B: M: Methodist Church is doing here, the reason that I've felt like maybe the p-iurch had somewhat hindered our being totally involved in the community or the coun ty or even the state and I guess I'm thinking back in my mind then from a po litical standpoint, is the fact that we have so many denominations and churches withinx such a small radius of the county, do you have any concept of how many denominations are represented among the Indian people? No I don't. I know the 250 and 300 churches in f2-c.J~ In~ Rood.tlletl County, for Baptist is the largest ~--v-'?--4---t ...... .._. ~l:: fie@M 1 County. ,:J.-e--Y"t\..~,A~ and we have somoohe1~ between how many Indian people approximately? -t;l;,. e l re +::Av_,,_; 1 ~ Well, this is the whole county,\all races, For the whole county, which is about 89 thousand people. Right, we have about 42, I believe, Baptist congregations alone and we have about 10 Methodist. I know we must have somewhere between 75 and 100, some where in the neighborhood. B: And do you have any knowledge that any of these other denominations are doing ~~_, anything for community developing in the areas like the Methodist involved? M: If they are, I don't knowtft. In fact, I'm the only indigenous community developer in North Carolina. B: I wanted to ask you a specific question. I was listening to some of the ob jectives of your program. Hoiv or what have you been doing xs or trying to do to develop team-work or to create self-initiative among the Indian people? is to, to This seems to be one of our greatestrroblems,~ bring, raise people's standards and make him want to raise his own stan~ds. How do you go about creating your, what you call team-work or individual work, what do you do, try to make the people do, to help themselves or just how do you go about your work, what , ~ou, involvat~ from day to day maybe I should say?

PAGE 9

M: LUM 27, Side 1 ---9--Well, let me go back and I'll give yo+ little overview of what we've tried to First. do. ;\When I came back from Chicago :a in September of '70, I go:t a little ques-t)_r-A.,V.'j /..., tionnaire and fixed it up andAwent around 1i8-the community, you know, asking people questions, you know, maybe some of their interests, if they were interested r,.. youfng -..J in community involvemen~ and out of this we found that we had a lot of ~..t-,,~CI ~vl-d"' men between the age of 2:fJ' andlrfl" that were interested in doing something. So we decided to form a local Jaycee Chapter. So then we were chartered ini October of 1970 and at the time we were chartered, we were the largest group that had ever been chartered in North Carolina. We had a membership Hf, ~-tf._,.--..,...,_, chartered membership of/)4,3-: 'so then we start, we began to work and one of our projects, we won in 1971 we got the plaque for the award for being the, doing the most outstanding community project. We went down in South Carolina, right across the line from North Carolina, where there was a group of Indian vrl--0 t,J--(.\.{,.,,,. peopleAreal poor and we rebuilt a church. We spent thirteen hundred dollars of money that our men raised and we spent six hundred man hours. B: This was the Jaycee group? M: Right. ,t,,0-> This church was 25 miles from home but :it(, in this church,~only people that they had attending were farm laborers and welfare recipients,-And mrkx when we went there you could look up and see the sky or the clouds,ever what happened to be over the parts of it, you know. And it was so cold in there you'd you know, your have to wear an overcoat,Anever could take xkR~topcoat off. So we won the project of the year in our district and then on a statewide basis, we come in second place. B: And Jaycees from this area were also involved in our recent Lumbee Day for; sponsoring a beauty queen, were they not? our M: Right and something else, you know,~xxi, going :a back to the Jaycees, our group sponsored Wakulla, which is five miles north of Prospect and then they

PAGE 10

LUM 27, Side 1 ---10--M (cont.): sponsored White Hill which is five miles west, south-west of Prospect. B: And in i2xxi 1971, the Indian chapters, you know, they put all their votes together. They decided that whoever run for president in North Carolina Jay cee~they would all vote together. And they had to decide in May. They had enough of votes and they that) blocked them together, to elect a man. And do you thin1 1 this is one thing that I've think that it's good to have the many Jaycee been questioned about~}o you or ,;;se 1 l t,.,-t.. v,.-u,,l,J... groupsxxkxx we a have mmimx •he better to have Wakulla 1m1 and White Hill Jaycee groups consolidate with Prospect, what do you think about this? M: I think it's better to have the groups. I think it's better to have each group in their respective KmmtHHlllX community but then I think it's good that all ew three groups can come in and work together, you know. I think this gives, really this was the purpose, we tried to get the boys up in Wakulla to join in with us but they felt like they would like to have something in their im mediate community that they could do to help their community be a better com~,C?) munityA Personally>I xkixk feel like it's better to xk have the different groups and then all of 'em _join forces together. I think we get more participation really. B: I think~ have several groups in the other areas like Magnolia, Fairgrove and Pembrook has a large Jaycee group. M: Right, right. B: But what is encouraging is to learn that they do pool their efforts and then, of course, they're more successful. M: Right. Well this was the, you know, this was one of the ideas behind that. It was not, it's not a political organization but our idea was that if we could ge9t::ilayoung men scattered all over the county in different groups like this ax in connnunities and then let them, they have what they call an Inter council Meeting each month xax that all the Jaycee chapters come in together

PAGE 11

LUM 27, Side 1 ---11--M (cont.): and they discuss problems in general, you know, like the Lumbee Home coming Day, they sponsored this. So really this is good. Now White Hill spon sored a new group over about five miles west of them xN, the Wilkerson Jayceesy that ,.po we feelAthe more youjng men li~e this we can get in a~d they become more about , -itub.f:n&eh F~,.,a..,~ ,.,.:_,._~ 1:-0 aware 1 Rf what's really happening~~ ali lillgxrtiHR~County that they' re ?J• n:a c,' help bring change about. B: Have any of these groups been helpful in our registration drive? I know they don't get political use of it but I know that the Methodists had something to do with the registration drive k2Nfx2 before the last ~i primary and some of the Jaycees were approached. Was the Prospect Jaycees involved in this or M: any to your knowledge? ,,..,..,, J::.,.i•-t,,A..A/"' They did some work in this and they've not been too political but{!!!: really they don't discuss political things in their Jaycee meetings. But we're hoping that this is NigH going to give us some good leadership in the future that these young men will be able to help lead and guide our people. Now we can W,~f.-t,A._~.i'-U~, see quite a 1 'L '.Isa&& t, you know, in some of ~NHX our young men that before they didn't understand how to get up and conduct meetings and things of this nature and today they're doing it. And here recently they're, they sponsored four ~t.-1.u..:.,,-1 We ~L, fattle ague baseball teams at Prospect b_etween the age of and ;1~-"fad -6-0---' -; little boys in uniform playing baseball during the summer. This was one of 't:A.P/4 ~projects. Another project that they're putting on is Prospect Rural. Voland the unteer Fire Department and we're in the process.xH We have our charter~ deeds that's for the land,,N-n the process of being fixed up so that'll be something else we could do. B: Well this certainly seems to be a unique group of Jaycees. I just wish that ~,/_u........ eW!!.f.y Jaycee~~ could take pattern after this because there's so many who things that can be accomplished when you have young men ~~are interested

PAGE 12

LUM 27, Side 1 ---12--B (cont.): in their, concerning their efforts together. But one other thing I wanted to say concerning the Jaycees before I left it x is that one of your objectives was to develop individuals so by being provocative and getting the Jaycees started here in essence achieVHing your goal because they do train yQ men like you say, to xx stand up and speak before a group and it develops the individual as well as xkH gxNH~ teaching them to be aware of community concerns. M: Right, right and too, you know, something else along with this, I've had sev eral opportunities, you know, from different Jaycee Chapters to go and speak to their groups and xkx the thing that I've been concerned about maybe most was trying to make these young men aware of some of our conditions in~ ~County. I felt like once they become aware of it then they'll be concerned enough to try and make our county a better place for the Indian people to live. B: Can you give me some explanation for a group like the Pembro~ke Jaycees, for example. My husband spoke to that group last night and he had a provocative speech.x xmmgkx It was very good I though1;J but what he was trying to do is to just H get these boys moving on their own. Here we have a lot of college graduates, most of 'em are teachers, many of them are in the business world and most of them have some kind of public office if they aren't teachers but SAMl!le'"" ~ ~tney are unaware of what's going on around them. Can you help me in underM: standing how our environment has produced citizens like this? Hang on just a minute. I think this reall~ that a lot of timesJindian people in ~~~BMJ. County and I've found and of us, we were horned in Egypt,~we this to be true in observation, that a lot lived in Egypt,Y.oon as we got out of Egypt we forgot the people back in Egypt. What I'm saying by that is we have a lot of people that were horned in poverty and they had a hard time but today they're educated, things have changed. They've been able to go to school and 1 uHaxnq xkq morR

PAGE 13

LUM 27, Side 1 ---13--{frrP M (cont.): 1 piey have good jobs. They have nice brick homes. They have two cars or Cit.A..(!..., a car and a pick-up and some of these people are in positions where they~ not able to get involved due to the political structure of our county for they realize that the axfl or the hatchet is over them. And then we have other people that are just not really aware for warm house. They get out and they 9,~ -t; they 8@'t',.. bed in a good warm home, good L have~ to eat and they don't seem to be too much concerned about the person that's not this fortunate. And I feel like a lot of it is ERRKHH because of not being aware of the situation in the county, They're~ tied in with this type thing. To me, you know, really, I've been involved in our community here for quite awhile but just opportunity to get out and N do this is a daily ooccupation. I've probably learned more /{,t:,(.('_,.:....(.''\A,._J f.:::::: about lsYl0Feeft County in the last two years than I did in anyAten or fifteen year period before. And it's because I've had time to get around and as a ,t,J.~ result of this, I'm more concerned~ I was before. I feel completely different xx from what I did even three, four,ive years ago. We have a lot of people NHN that still feel that you're supposed to get on your knees and beg .{ ... cv.-e.. for the HkHx things today that we shouldl,\had ten, fifteen years ago and at one time maybe I felt this way somewhat. But today I don't feel this way. The way I, that I really feel, that the minority people are going to have to ,7...J-..,"~'t ~1:., 1!'e do things for themselves; ~ke~ttHAgoing to be issues) /hey're going to have to force in order that change comes about. B: Well this is going to be a slow process. Most likely, you won't live to see ..._, the change that we are now working for and possibly I may not.Gut what kind of positions do most of the Indians hold, those that have, say, a college education? Do you have any idea what, how many of our 1nnq1~ people who have finished college, what kind of vocations do they go into? ,. . ---F 1-,1-....,-".Ar M: Well~it used to be where about the only thing they could do was teach school

PAGE 14

M B: M: (cont.): and farm. I c/;;_1-/ J-,1 r-..e. /J farm, he farmed,put LUM 27, Side 1 ---14--The man that went through college, he taught school and~J"'-"' L,,,.._Q... today, ~do have more vocations open. We have ministers; we have college graduates in the ministry. But the majority of our you know, college graduates are still teaching school. By the way,~we have two college gradautes working at Lumbee Bank as tellers. ~-And you are affiliated 1 the Lumbee Bank in some under Well, try. I'm serving NH~one of the Board of capacity? Directors;fiie present time. !/<.. '\ J~..Mt feel that this is something that's going to give our people more pride and i.,;J;;c, that we have We dignity. YNH~1:ee a never seen before. but there's Indian lot of people, you know, s...the Lumbee BankA mclxR thought -bfv-,{) 1, ti)_ We xkg~Hxk we knew~people in and around r:,f,,,y(-'.1-"-" from people ~other places proud that there's af\Indian Bank that they can go coming in because they're to~osit their moni~s. B: I want to get back to our political structure in a little bit but I wanted to just ~iearn a little bit more about the Lumbee Bank. When was the Lumbee Bank, I know it was chartered the nineteenth of May last year because that was my birthday and I was one of the ones who went to get the charter, but when did we open up the first day for business? M: I believe it was the twenty-third of January wasn't it, 1971? December. B: December. M: Right, twenty-third of December ... B: And it's how, well let's see, it's how old then? This is September, nine? M: It's about nine months old. B: Nine months old. And have you any idea of how well we've progressed, just generally, I don't expect you to .•. M: B: Well, we started off with about $670,000 and today our assets about two and "" a half million roughxly . .___... . /i-~•-L, And this is,according to the banks, is this pretty ~ecsra growth?

PAGE 15

LUM 27, Side 1 ---15--M: Well, we think it is and our president feels that we're doing a real good job t'.i\v-, and we have talked with some people from FDIC and~State Banking Collllllission. And 'hey feel that our group is doing real well, B:. I heard that you had such a good business if you had any more ~ml mmhbclx your M: little mobile unit couldn~t accollllllodate it. ~,',Iv~ Right, we ft~e, by the way, we're the first bank that has ever been chartered you know, as a mobile unit. And we're the only Indian bank in the U.S. and we may~be the only bank that will ever e: be chartered in a mobile uni1:_, ~~n' t know. But we're in the process, we're, of building a building. We're hoping to be in it sometime the first part of December this year. r' B: And the Lumbee Bank is controlled byApredominantly Indian Board. You have two your whites, xke:~attorney and the president. M: Right. B: And then the stock-holders are what, higher than 90% are Indian. Is that M: B: correct? Right, right. So it's truly an Indian bank and we're, we're you have something else you want to say about conversation talking about our teachers going ~,yy-.,,pv...u:l. times 1 from1ecoming involved. But what about all equally prQ_d of _it. ;qnless M, No 'Ido"' -,-, the bank, I'll~o back to our ,,.,~ 13,,, into positions that they're someother positions other than teachers? ~I know weAgot our first Indian lawyer to pass the North Carolina Bar recently. r,,.__J_, We do have an Indian doctor. We have two Indian pharmacists~ one of 'em I'm really, really fond of since he~s my husband, but what about positions in the county for employment such as our city government, county government and even state and federal xxgNlm:XHmHHX employment in, within the county. Do we have a fair shake in the employment as far as Indians are x concerned? M: Well, let's look at the ratio, you know, really of, 1or percentage of people.

PAGE 16

LUM 27, Side 1 ---16--M (cont.): Today,according to our 1970 census, we have about 84,000 people in~ ;?~:~ .. [_.~---~ County. We feel that this ix was, this shorted us though. We feel that B: M: B: M: we have about 90,000. But of this group, we have about 30% are Indian people. J2..r--C1---l.,e_,_w--_, And in~@a County, let me go back, in North Carolina, we have 152 school k ~~--/J--1'-Ai:Ysystems. 01-uuleFSOft County, we have..,6". There's 100 counties in North Caro~ one hundreth and been able lina. County is HHXHXR/'{o support education financially and ..•. One hundreth, ix that means it's lowest? It's on the bottom. On the bottom. On the bottom in the state of North Carolina. And so then we have six systems lJ._. have fiveR city units, chartered city units. We have one county unit.Up until the fall, September 1970, all the Indian children, At this time, we have about practically, were educated in the county system./ ~--': .. :.': I -ti""-,AJ-;o We have an excess of mNHR~~ hundred 15,00,students in the county syste~. Indian students. But we did not have an Indian in, a decision, a high decisionmaking position. .I,_ fij_, _,,.t~A'-'-We 1;a.e / men on the Board of Education. We had {ff whites, one black and one Indian. And we had never had an Indian on the Board of Ed ucation until the legislature added two members to our;:;~ber board and made /1,-V"I-,___ it aJ"member. And since they XR added these two, they've always been elected since. But one of the things that we feel that has been detrimental to the In~-lr"Y'-dian ieople in R:euJ County is that they've not had an opportunity to steer their own ship as far as education and a lot of other aspects. For we called schools that we attended Indian schools kxH MRXXR but we've really never had any Indian schools. We never had no control of 'em. Only thing we can do is for go there, learn about what was put outi\kRNXXR us. And we feel that one thing that was really detrimental to our children was the fact that our schools were controlled by the political structures of the town and the city units. The city

PAGE 17

LUM 27, Side 1 ---17--M (cont.): <1, . ,, . f _ 'ti 't,v..,..,A._.,__. units had enough of political power to elect the R.!ulcrseft County Board of Education. And then in turn, they turned around xk and elected their own Board of Education without the people in the ~~unty School Adminis trative Unit participating. But even though we had Indian principals and InAnd dian teachers, these people knew how far they could go. Ji( lot of timesif they tried to go too far to promote things or really holler aijut things that were unfair to the Indian people, this would turn the Superintendent and the poli tical powers that were controlling them against them. And they, ~H kXXR they knew how far they could go most of the time. B: And we've actually had teachers who were removed because they would speak up or try to do something actually for the betterment of the school or to better educate the children. We've had teachers not return to their original,places or they've just been not given a job at all. M: Well generally speaking though when a person gets involved and he sees things are wrong, especially WXl!mg a man in high position, and he tries to make a change, they class him as a troublemaker. And you know, back in 1958, I believe it was, somewhere k way back in there that }1r. Joseph Samson supported, no, it was prior to '58, kux ke that he supported a black man from our district as County Conunissioner over a white man. He was a schoolteacher. And after that, inunediately after that, he moved to Ohio. He's been living up there ever since. B: He was interested but KHmdd: suddenly he was turned off. M: Yeah, he was turned off. And we have the xxx same thing even happening today. You know people that used to call me Mr. Moore, they call me Harb and people y6u, knovJ, used to think I's a pretty good boy, thinks ~Y, '\ something that I'm not. They think I'm radical and I'm no.t radical. All I'm concerned about is people having an equal opportunity.

PAGE 18

LUM 27, Side 1 ---18--B: You were speaking about therity~;:help us elect our sevenfman Board. This is double voting. They vote on their Board for the x city unit and then they vote on the County Board. Has anything been done as far as approaching our legislators or anyone on the state level concerning this double voting issue? M: Well there was ax group.I of ministers last year, we had one hix Indian minis ter and four white ministers and myself, we made a trip up to Raleigh and we talked vi.th the twenty-fou:d-{'aucus district. We were in District 24 at that time and we were talking along x this line plus we were talking on merger too. But really, you know, thes~people see our condition but then they know they're elected by the popular vote and if they get on our side to really do the thing that would be right for us this could affect their position, their political life really. So then, again later, about a month later, we were back up there and this time there were about a hundred people from ~l~';~~""'c'ounty and we were trying to get the way the Board of Education was elected put on a district O'-'
PAGE 19

LUM 27, Side 1 ---19--M (cont,): political powers or that the whites in the county system just don't want to see the Indian people be in position to decide their destiny. This is that the thing~we feel and we don't want to feel but we know it's wrong. We're '-} .. ,, . :i trying to teach it to our ~'people every chance we get that it's wrong, that people should have an opportunity to decide t~ own desti,O and this /?.-t:--ku--is one of our problems in Ra~01s&rr County today. We haven't had that opportunity and we're not going to be given the opportunity. The only way we're goin)to possibly get it we're going to have to force the issue. ti B: And you said that this utterly ridiculous system ..• END SIDE 1

PAGE 20

LUM 27, Side 2 BEGIN SIDE 2 ---20--M: .•. so that the Indian people wo.ild stand a better chance then of electing possiiRsi.bly four people to the ~auleFson County Board of Education. And four out of seven is the majority. So we feel that this would give us a better chance to help determine what type schools we have. You know, jus~a coup~_,,.-Zeks ago the city school units went on record as opposing merger and their,eason was NH that our buildings in the county system were in such condition that it would take a lot of money to repair them and then they decided that we had inferior education. They felt like they would be degrading their schools to come in alongw..th ours. We knew, we feel that our children are just as important to us as theirs is to them. B: Why are you overtly interested in the educational system? I know you served as a/oard member kRforR the community school when we had boards for each school but what happened or what provoked you to have the XR interest in our educa tion? I know you've got children but maybe there's something you could tell me to help me see why maybe NH you were interested in candidacy as a Board member. M: Well, on9'thing, you know, that really caused this, I've been involved in our (;
PAGE 21

LUM 27, Side 2 ---21--B: M: B: principal. M: who's principal of Prospect School. This was in about 1963 when Mr. B. F. Littlefield was Superintendent of &af~so;~ -~~~nty Schools. And then I served on the study commission on the merger deal in 1970 and I found out some more things that caused me to become more concerned about our schools. Now Oral High School which was smaller than any Indian high school we had in the county was accredited by the Southern Association in 1959. Littlefield High School was a new high school they built about six miles east of Lfmberton and it was an all white school at the time they built it. It was accredited by the Southern Association in 1961. So we realize that if we could get Prospect accredited that we would get supplies and equipment like we hadn't had before. This was our main interest, you know, in getting Prospect accredited. ~t this particular time N Pembrofke High School, their principal did not have the necessary credentials to get accredited with. So we felt like we would be the first Indian school but we couldn't get the opportunity. Let me quote you a few facts, Brenda, why I'm concerned about education. This came from .......... Division
PAGE 22

LUM 27, Side 2 ---22--M (cont.): would use to~ay :i::s as a senior high would be Lumberton High. So let me quote you a few figures here. I'm going to only quote the, this is 1968, J-.. and the only figures I'm going to quote are the ones that enterfa four-year college or university. I'm going to give it to you by districts and then I'm goin(to give you the percentage of their students and the percentage that went into from directly~:i:H the _labor market after graduattng xxxex'\high s~?o~~And before we get on that, you know in 1964 we had 1278 students in :t!ii~~~~C~unty Schools in the eighth grade. of 'em we had 667~to go through and line In 1968 when these students finished high school, ~~("c,_.,,,L../gradua~e which is 521. So somewhere along the B: Who finished high school. M: Finished high school. B: M: 5dl 'fki:s p:xxx:i::11rn::lxx F-Hty t'irope{}:en t. Now this was 52~~;.;;~students that were in the eighth grade in 1964. Now what I'm going to give you is the percentage of the students that entered, enrolled in a four-year college or university, we don't know how many of 'em /!~lA-~./ B: The per cent of the -52j~ M: Right, right. B: You had 600 students. So of that 600 students ... M: B: M: 667. ... how many went on to higher education. Right, okay. And I'm going to, we only had 14. 2tote,:~: 1 ~2, f~~---;;:;and enter a four-year college or university, to enroll. ix xiqi:+ mgi::ke finished, maybe, I don't know, maybe l(...,:-{..M.-,'>,..,,_, So we don't know how many (J,,01.,LJ_,...,,_1half of that 14\. But this was the Rcrnler~Ofl. County School Unit. The, we sent directly into the labor market out of high school, when they graduated from high school, 43%f.e1 .-Ct• 1 t/..., of our students.

PAGE 23

B: M: B: M: B: M: LUM 27, Side 2 ---23--v, ./ V' n.,,4_.., u.~/;j {'..L,.A...,u..,..,.,,,...ADo you have Tl>j,., pk of knowing xkax now of this 14 from the district, they, can you determine how many were Indian or what/ some general? I'm not able to tell how many were Indian of this group. But I do know p..u-.,.c.e,-..J-that over 60~ of the population of the R:attle~oen County School Unit at that time were Indian children. 60~,UAJr_.A..0~ 60t. So we feel fairly safe in saying that more, the whites hadf higher perRed centage of going on •to college. But let me,xRaa\Spring School Unit, they kaa were, they had 3-{j'to enter a four-year college.xxa They had 2'{f)to go into the labor market. Maxton School Unit had 42% to enter a four-year colinto lege and they had 22% xs~the labor market. St. Paul's School had 28% to enter x four-year college and they had 29% to enter the labor market. Fair mont had 24% to enroll in a four-year college, 23% into the labor market. Lumberton, which is the capital :tn ~d~-;-~:~ounty, had 32%, 32. 9 to enter four-year college and 15% into the labor market. So what we're really saying is that our unit was lowest and we i didn't have an opportunity, you know, s to really in the high positions, to make our schools better. Now today the people that are presently serving, we have a Superintendent Associate, the Superintendent is white. The Associate is white. We have two assistants. The first assistant is Business Manager. And the next assistant is Albert Hump, which is Indian and he is Coordinator of Title One which is a federal program. So we feel that we really need somebody up in some of these higher positions. Now going back to, this was one of my reasons for running for the Board of Education. And going back city units and the county unit al.l vote to the double voting, there's five ~"2' . I. . ~-I'-" for the ~J •-Mm County Board of

PAGE 24

LUM 27, Side 2 ---24--M (cont.): Education. So I'm going to quote some figures here and you'll see why we're real unhappy about this. Now these are the city votes alone. We were able to do this due to precinct~ and district lines. We were able to pick out the city, the people that liv:])in the city and we were able to separate them from the county school unit by using x a county precinct map and a county map J;'J,with ek the school lines drawn on it. It's kindfbnique to look that a, you know, to see that the three white encumbents that's presently serving all re ceived in excess of 4000 votes in the city units alone. And neither of these people received as many as 3000 votes in the county unit. But then the three Indian people that were running, Harbert Moore, O yvitJ,J.,,,1..-t,.,d 11 , ---, an Aileee~ Holmes, rece&ved in the county unit alone in excess of 3500 votes. So what I'm saying there is that the people that live in the county unit would have been quote electinglJ:heir Board of Education, we'd all been in office. So let me h;~e you oneAright quick. The, Mr. McCormack which is the Chairman of our Board a: present, received 4779 votes in the city units alone. Moore received .f'..,t>..' . ! . 2260. Aid by the ~-' way, I~ the lowest vote-getter i:H of any/ 'in the city units. McCormack received 2860 out of the county unit which he is~tairman of; and Moore received 3675. B: Um-hum. And you received around 2000, you said, in the city. M: 2260. B: Compared to where he got hi~. So he got his greater vote in the city. M: He beat me by 2519 votes in the city alone. B: So if the city didn't vote on our Board of Education, we'd have three going in this time instead of...Miss 1 A~Holmes going in alone. M: Right, right. -eife. B: What accounts for her success possibly? Do you have any projection 1 arQM:te? I mean, how did she do in the county? Maybe if you have figures on that you

PAGE 25

LUM 27, Side 2 ---25--B (cont.): could, I just wondered, what kind of support did she get. M: Well she did, she did well in the county. Mrs. Holmes received, she received 3100 and some votes, oh, they have it right here. She received 3161 votes in the city unit. B: M: B: M: In the city. Now we feel there ~A_J.,, could be a possibility,Athis is a possibility, that her name might have fooled some people. This is a white name. And so, but Moore, I have been involved with our school affairs more than she had and we feel that maybe this had some Well if I J ,,<..--,,<,--' j (<_,, ---------B: if it happens to us, like we voted for certain candidates because they M: B: M: >Jv-,,.... \ had the name Hunt and this is a real Indian name andAanother one who/got good support among the Indians was a Brooks and this possibly could be the answer. But I just wondered what could have made the difference there. Now as far as other areas of the political st~cture, like I about the appointed positionsXN~ or something, wanted you to tell me something determines who~ kimmm:s: this or maybe the, just expound a little bit on another area, for example, the County Commissioners. We've ~~HXllR~had a little success there recently and your idea that if we voted on the school like we did the Commissioners, we very well may have had yourself from as aXRMX member because xi\_Your district, we do.have a County Commissioner who is serving his second term? Right. Mr. Herman Dial who is the first Indian County Commissioner? Second. Tracy)~r""~served two terms which was eight years before Herman was elected. B: But he is from the same district.

PAGE 26

M: B: LUM 27, Side 2 ---26--Right, right. He's from the same district as Mr. Dial, Herman Dial and this is the district from which H~ you come units votes had the city'\not gone on the Board and possibly could have;\_or would have according to the been allowed to vote on you. What about our new Commissioner over in the Red Springs district, do you want to talk to me a little o/?-+-~ bit about him, Bobby Dean -Be JrJ~? M: Well, we feel really that this was something five, even two, three, four, five years ago, we didn't think it could be done but Bobby Dean was e successful in defeating probably the, the strongest white candidate people felt like was --a~-rz:~n\, in :lla'alerson Cou~~y~re he served on the Board of Commissioners for a 10 : ,,,.,., time. He was Chairman for quite awhile. W But we seen a little revolution in our, the political structure of our County Commissioners here in the last or three1 four, five years. And as a result of that, the Indian people have been able to reap some benefits from this, you know. Just recently we had a man that was put into the tax office, Tax Supervisor, and he was the first In dian that had ever been employed in the county court/house as head of a de partment in Lumberton. So we feel that this has helped open the door. But too, we also feel that because of moves like this some of the whites were defeated in their II B: Their candidacy. Like the Chairman, the old Chairman of the Board of Connnissioners M: Board of Commissioners. B: was defeated. -t)~ M: And we feel that it was moves like~ that helped defeat him. For there was whites in the county that said, you know, that, they said, friend, being a friend to these people and we feel, I think he feels himself somewhat that this had something to do with it. For we have discussed these, you know.

PAGE 27

LUM 27, Side 2 ---27--B: Can you look at the way that James Jacobs, the new Tax Supervisor, was elected by the County Commissioners and see what the Indian influence did in that? The Commissioners ~~voted yes for James Jacobs, the districts that they come from, are they not heavily Indian populated? M: Right, right, right. B: Wellington comes from the St. Paul's district and he was one of the ones who voted for James Jacobs. Herman Dial of course, the Indian on the Board. And what about Howard Cooper, the one who was defeated? M: Well Howard B: He had to break the tie. 11 q i ,1 . M: ..• lbward and Sam1~ out of Lumberton, the Indians don't have as much to do withe electing them as they did Doug Wellington out of St. Paul's. Now xki:x they were the determining factor in Doug's race as to whether he went into office or not. But Howard and Sam, they, the Indian people would not be, I don't think, but then on the other hand, this is kindly of a political xkxg maneuvering, you know, like politicians do, and these people had been working together and Sam Nobel told me himself he said that Pete Jacobs was doing an excellent job. He was a good man, he was smart and he was doing an excellent ~-f job in the Tax Department and he felt that that was the best moves that they had ever made. They integrated the court-house and also they were getting a first-class job. So we, we contend that all the Indian people need is an opportunity to prove themselves and see what they can do. B: And I think b~use our educational system x is in such a H very bad condition is the reason why we don't have the self-initiative to go and seek out these positions and prove that we are a ~Hxxe qualified people if we are just given the chance to show our potential.

PAGE 28

LUM 27, Side 2 ---28--~A.'A--M: Well a lot of times we have the self-initiative but the ttooFo closed on us before we get in there, you know. If you're going in out of the rain, you first have to get1he door open and this has been one of the problems in R.a-tt kj-L-4-k._.. 1~ County. The door has been closed before we could get in and really prove ourselves. B: Well in the last ten years, maybe a little longer, since the integration move ment came about and agencies have almost been forced to hire different races, in our county because of the harrass/ment and the negative attitude xkeJ keJ the that they had been confronted with beforeJ\integration, do you think this accounts for Indians not applying for jobs now that maybe some of the doors are open? I've often had officials say tha~they would hire Indians but the Indians don't apply. How c~n you and I rebuttal a situation like this? M: Well ex let me rebuttal it like this, you know, a lot of times our people feel maybe, you know, that there's, well the door's closed :and maybe it's really not closed but too often when you go to apply for x jobs, even like in stores or places like this, they tell you that they want qualified people and they want people with experience. So when they say people with experience, this cuts us out right there for we have never been in position to get exper~fr":,_.,..,~r. .tJ ,;J, ienceJ~ Just like today, you know, we, our Social Service Director of~~ 86ft County Social ~ervice resigned. Well I don't think we have an Indian per son that could fill that position. We have .~ B: How long had she been h? That's one of the questions I wanted to bring Vi up about Mrs.~:&a.tteem. M: I don't remember. I know it's been ..• B: It was in the, in the paper recently. M: it's close to, between fifteen and twenty years. But the reason that we don't have anybody. They are supposed to have so much experience along this

PAGE 29

LUM 27, Side 2 ---29--M (cont.): line and we don't have anybody tha~as the experience. We do have R ,~ people that has enoughfeaucation but they don't have the experience. And this applies to the kx black people also. B: What about employees that work in that office maybe that have, could have trained for this? Do we have Indian people who work under Mrs. Vitu who may be might have it a little difficult but could move up in~er position? What about the •.. , M: Not at this time. Now you see, I don't April of '71, we only had~Indian person job in social service. For at that time service, we had five Indians, we had one ./,+-i..,.,,_,, _,,,_;__,y' we had})( Indians in the top ,,ff' positions, know how many we have but in 1971, in working RRR~ RRR in, in a professional ...6-6';' ;""'':1-t,ji' -~,C.,J ,~ we had}i60 people ~mployed in social f-t-~1-~~ Indian in the top)'47p~sitions and ,.a.y1the low, the ft m: lowest positions. So really this person is still a social worker. I don't remember whether it's one or two but they would never. You see the state sets standards that a /irector has to meet and I was in the Deputy-Director's office of Social Service in April of 1971 in Raleigh and we were trying to find out some things about ~County social service. And he told Harold Woods and myself that the HRH Merit State Test was oriented for the middle-class ' whites and our minorities had a problem with it, This includes the Indian and the black, you know, red. So this is one of the problems, they have to, you know, they have to pass this state test and this is one reason that we're really concerned about x education for first, they have to be educated. And we do have a lot of people that could pass this test but they're not concerned...l" because they feel that the work would be so hard on them and ~the way advancement wouldn't be open for them to make the progress or{xmr:RHXRK that they should People that but they're not interested in it really.'\ ~kR~ could pass it. B: So what, how do the figures compare with the Indian employees at the Social

PAGE 30

LUM 27, Side 2 ---30--B (cont,): Services comparJ,_with the Indian recipients of the services there? What kind of percentage or do you have any idea? M: Well, the only, I have all of it H but I don't have it with me. B: Just generally, can you? M: I can giv~ you one good one. In 19, in February of 1971, you know, ! said P+-1: H~17-we had Jf1' people emplo~~here, we had five Indians, on~n the tovp ~, pditions and four in the lowest;(positions and x at that particular time we had 4300 Indian people receiving food stamps. We had 4900 black~OO white and we didn't have a single nonR-white working Food Stamp Department. Now today, IR don't know how it is, B: Well, I've often been confronted with the fact that if we have girls or In dians who come and apply and they're qualified they, they could easily get the job. But you know, I feel like that everything we've had to get, we've had to go to the white man to get it. His clothes until recent years, most M: just of the grocery stores, gasoline, insurance,xx"\,everything we had to do, we had to confront a white man and now though we are getting Indian men in these official capacities, it's getti~ little easier for us but we can't easily forget that we didn't want to go confront him if we didn't have to. So if we can teach school and have a fairly comfortable living, w:l!Dbm:xk most often we've been complacent to accept that rather than to, to xkxR have to take some negative response or even stick our neGout or jeapordize our posi tion a little bit in order to help all of 'em as a total Indian family. We maybe a little bit selfish in this respect, maybe not our own fault. I like to think that it's because we aren't really aware that our brother is in such despj{rate conditioij sometimes. Well I think that's it. I think we're not aware and too, people like to kind~1 be secure, youlnow, from an economical standpoint. We like to be secure to

PAGE 31

LUM 27, Side 2 ---31--M (cont.): take care of our families and we're aware, too, that if we get involved P, .. {"-t.,.~-.1.....too much in trying to upset the structure of ~lEtB&fi County and fail to do it, then we could not be x11muxe so secure if we're depending on employment where the political structures have anything to do with it, you know. B: Do you feel as hopefu~as I do that change is taking place?And we all have to face it, it's political, whatever realm of our life we might want to study. But I think the Indian people are becoming aware and I'm real happy to say because we've had so many public officials resign for, if for no other evidence, like in the board of elections, because Indians are beginning to register and hopefully will exert more and more of this kxxa power. We had a, the Executive Secretary who had been she resigned. -r/;;:;;{-;_he /; tLtt . ..1..,,-, (J::1.1..,,1"-' in that position for thirteen or y,'years and suddenly woman who worked under her resigned and various positions in the county, people are, for some reason trying to get out of because we, maybe we are beginning to threaten the bureaucratic system in our county a little bit because we're becoming involved. Do you feel positive about this kind of change? M: Well I feel this way about power to any group of people, whether it's a minor ity group for political power or poor group for self-determination, power is notgJ.ven. Nobody gives power. If you, if ~N he's going to give it to you, he can also take it away. So the only way Eyou really get power is by forcing the issue or really up pHKx pushing and, you know, getting it for yourself. For people just don't go around giving people power. B: Right. Another thing I think that I'm pleased about is that we seem to have a great pride of our Indianness in the last few years and hopefully this is having some kind of unifying effect because, like you say, nobody is going to give us power. And until we let our power be felt, we're not going to progress. And I have no knowledge of any national candidate ever coming, especially a

PAGE 32

LUM 27, Side 2 ---32--B (cont.): presidential candidate ever coming and recognizing the ~H group of In dians in &~unty until this last year. And more and more candidates are becoming aware that even though it's just 1~680 registered Indians in this could county, that sometimes\xn be the turning point for an election. And we're getting a ixxmi little more attention now from a political standpoinf Do you share this idea? M: Well, what we're trying to do, Brenda, we're trying, you know, and my interest along this line is this, that\ve have our, we see things ixxfHxHx different, you know. We do our own thinking and we see things different as Indian people. B: But then we don't separate, you know, we're still able to unite our strength together for one common cause and that is the cause RX to help all people, you . ~.._~ ,I~ know, help make ~~lQree-n County a better county. And I fee-rs I travel around in the county today xxkx that this is true a lot more today than it was maybe even five years ago or ten years ago. People are beginning to realize, you know, that if they get things, they're going to have to really get out and work for it. We~re going to have to work for these things just like we work to get paid on Saturday, you know. If you sit in the house all day Monday, Tuesday and on through Friday, the man don't pay you. So we're beginning to realize that if we get things along the political line or things for self-determination, we're going to have to get out and work for them just like we do our payI mean, check. And this is a way of life, you know, for me. Th.is is some of the thing that I'm doing every chance I get. And I'm telling our young and old and middle-age, you know, that we're going to have to do these things for ourself /,L.:'...,•-,~ I / with nothing againss no iRt@~enti~, we just feel that we should be treated ./ And as other people are treated. ~is is all we want. Well this is~dent, that the young people are thinking down this line be in cause last night I was .xx~a meeting and a young man, possibly about my age,

PAGE 33

LUM 27, Side 2 ---33--B (cont.): about thirty years old, spoke of an offer a candidate had made, to give him $1,000 and he could've taken the $1,000 and have worked among his people for this candidate, but he wxx~ HR RX~XRXXRR would, he had, he expressed the attitude that he would have been selling himself and his people down if he had put this in his pocket and not worked for the better government for all the people. So it was really impressive to see such honesty because I know that's a lot of money for a XEX EX mNRR young man thirty years old who really wouldn't have a whole lot to lose if RH he didn't XH have a family and he's in school but I knew he could use this money. But I was real pleased to hear a thiry-year-old Indian man say that he didn't want pay-offs from the poli ticians, He wanted to get something that he wouldn't be owing or he wouldn't be paid off.Now he could still ask the services of that politician after he got in office. Where if he's paid hifu~ 1 when he gets in there, he doesn't owe him anything. But he owes us his service once he gets in there. M: Well this ~N is probably one of the reasons we're in the condition we're in you know. today,A :ARR We have been sold at various times and this is the thing that we're hoping H~:ipjg~to get our people away from. And really we feel that they're away from it today. We may still have a few people that would do things of that f2__J,._~4..4.....,... nature but basically I feel the x average Indian person in ~rsaR County today, his vote is not up for sale. I feel that\iie is going to vote for the ..d,._~,,I individual that re feels will help his people most and I'm real proud of this. A I'm glad I feel this way. And we're trying to teach and talk or anything else we can do along this line, you know, to get people to thinking this way more. But one thing we're goJing to have to do is get a higher percentage of our ..... Indian people to the polls. B: We've got ten thousand registered and if we can, over the nation, I know it was low last time, but if we could get more than 50~~,t.,~t:, WR KNllR which

PAGE 34

LUM 27, Side 2 ---34--B (cont.): has been much the history of our past, then we definitely could let our power be felt. M: Right. B: Well, is there any other area? M: I believe that'll do it. When, when I get this other, then I can give you some WR&.1:-e facts, you know,--------B: Well I look forward to talking to you more when you get your studying, your graphs more precisely together and mainly in your mind. And I've really en joyed talking with you and I hope that we can talk again. And I have been interviewing Mr. Harbert Moore at Prospect Methodist Church about three miles from Pembro)fke andtnday is September 21. And I hope to be sending more tapes shortly. M: By the way, let me throw this in, we have the largest Indian church in the nation. B: This is a member of the church of which Mr. Simeon Cumming~is Pastor. I think we have forwarded a tape of Mr. Cummings already. So Mr. Moore is a very active not only in the county but in the church. He has an extremely good church going record. He has missed two Sundays in how many years? B: Nineteen years. But I think there's more to him than just being a good church goer. I thank the Lord for him and I wish we had more Indians that would stand up and be counted by his side. END OF TAPE