Interview with Adolph Dial August 25 1972

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This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
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TAPE THIRTEEN LUMBEE INDIANS
AUGUST 25, 1971S
ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON


I: Professor Dial, we appreciate the opportunity to interview you

and thank you for allowing us to do so. I would like to talk to

you in a very relaxed atmosphere. The sky is the limit. We

want to leave it open' we-a a.ttU ivtPiasr an and let you do

most of the talking. First of all, though, we would like to have,

if we may, biographical information about yourself and Doctor

Sandlin, if you...

S: Well, Lew, I as born December 12, 1922, on prute 30, Maxton, North

Carolina in Robeitson County, in what is known as the "prospect

community" as what I consider one of the old ----- communities

of RobeAson County.

I: Right, and that is spelled p-r-o-s-p-ec-t.

S: Yes. And perhaps as much .aian blood, if I may use the term

Sprtmran blood in the prospect community.--T long spot among the

last-femr-years and some of the bvAds=s as you would find anywhere

in the 09#- ---of c se. I attended elementary school in

Prospect, graduated from high school in 1939 and entered Pennebzoke,

what is today Pennebroeke State University. But at that time, the

University was known as Penebrooke State College for Indians. meS /Vk-

' a? e Iniversity has had many gains over the years, started Ajw o 4

tyOfpli school in 1887 and later the Cherokee k o normal school







2



later Peabroe State College f r Indians and then Peanebrode

State College and then PeirAebro e State University. And last

year, 1971, well, really this year, 1972, we had become tired of

the regular University system. But getting back to myself, I

graduated from Pehiebrooke State University in 1943. I went into

the service in April, April 23rd of 1943. I believe I said '43,

did I not? Anyway, that's correct. Anyway, April 23rI went into

the service and I would have graduated in June. As a matter of fact,

I did graduate in June in- -- -. Because most of the universities

colleges and universities at this state and I suppose in the country,

were given full credit for a half semester's work if you were called

to do service for your country. So I graduated in ab sen---. At

that time, at the time of graduation I was & asic training at

Fort Eustis, Virginia. As I recall, graduation was sometimes in

June; the_ Jz WinLLAtiWorld War II which I was tha-er --

batlTrsi, which I was a little bit disappointed. I was unable to

come home.for graduation. So I suggested to the President of the

University, Dr. R. D. Wellen, that my diploma be presented to my

mother, so she, my mother, Mrs. H. A. Dial, better known as

"sugar made" before she married Harry Allan Dial. Lots of people

call here sugar--s-u-g-a-r.

I: She is a very sweet person, tktd

S: Thank you. I even requested she march in my place, and of course,

she did. And Governor Hor, who was the governor of the state of

North Carolina at that time, gave the commencement address. My

mother told me about di fntT t part ; it was a very unusual thing.








3



I enjoyed it very much. I graduated that year in --------. I

was proud of the fact that I was listed in "Who's Who".

I: Which year was this?

S: In 1943 or '42. I think it was 1943 I was listed in I-Who's Who"

among the students in universities and colleges. And I graduated

cum laude. And I was overseas, as well as I recall, and arrived

overseas in the fall, sometimes in the fall in England, in 1943.

And I spent two years, it was in October or November I arrived in

England. And I spent two years overseas and I- ------- November

of 1945 and I came back, retired with six battle stars. Never did

shoot a man to my knowledge, I waslt in any aircraft. And I guess

I was, as I often say, I never did shoot a man and I was never shot

at. Often times, I tell my students about this. They began to feel

sorry for me when I say "Well, I never did shoot anyone, and as

far as I know,was never shot at." They say, "Well, how did you get

six battle stars?" I tell them I j-st happened to be there at the

right time, being in an anti-aircraft outfit.

I: I want to interrupt just a moment. I hate to interrupt you chain

of thought coming out so beautifully. We had better put the date of

your birth and your present occupation.

S: December 12, 1922.

I: And now your occupation.

S: Now, I am the head of a new, just beginning this year, a new program,

American Indian Studies Department. Also, this American Indian

Studies Department met last night for the first time last evening.

A contemporary American Indian problems course. I have 26 students.







4



And I think next time we meet, there will be eight or ten more.
A
The class such as this we are doing it on Monday, Wednesday, and

Fridaylas 40 students. A- course of History of the American
the course /fe/
Indian. And,tin archeology, that is Professor Gordon's ,;b, is

doing well too. So we are beginning with three courses and I think

-AS we are off to a very good start. We are looking forward to it. And

by the way, in my Contemporary American Indian Studies course, it

cae out just as I wanted it. I have exactly half white and half

Indians, all Lumbees. And it is nice it came out that way.

I: Maybe we-hed go back and pick up where you were. I don't want to

miss anything. You were telling about your service during World

War II.

S: After World War II Mrs. Dial--

I: Let's get back to my mother later on. After World War II, I returned

home and I was self-employed on the farm for a year. You could draw

self-employment. And I was employed on the farm for a year. And then

I went to Detroit in 1947, the fall of 1947, oa ta h aa.-.. the

automotive industry. I pointed this out for the fact that many of

our people, several hundred, were in Detroit. And several hundred

were in Baltimore; about 3500 # day, maybe 4,000 in Baltimore.

And perhaps maybe a couple a thousand Lumbees in Detroit today and

I worked there till February for five months. And I got the opportunity

to return to Pe bro e to teach in the public schoolsA I was prin-

cipal of Prospect High School from 1958; 1955 through 1958. And I

taught in the public schools for several years in PeQbroee High

School and Prospect High School, Magnolia High School for one year.

Ofcourse, I have been with the University now for 14 years.







5


S: And that tells pretty much about myself. I might add that

this year I a-a- very busy man, I received $19,276 grant from

Ford Foundation to do research on the Lumbee Indians of North

Carolina.

I: That was an exciting project, wasn't it?

S: Yes it was. And the publication I hopeto get to the press by

next summer. And I have enjoyed it very much. Also, this year

I served as chairman of the advisory committee on Indian work of

the United Methodist Church, with headquarters at 475 Riverside

Drive in New York City. Also, this year I had a wonderful experience.

I worked about 20-25 days with Margaret Meade and about 32 or 33 other

scholars from around the country where we have a publication coming

out called "4w --------- it t s i in November of this year.

It will be out now in a couple of months, ti friendship eP3s.

I also this year have been involved with voter registration. I
-o
was elected a delegate fer the Democratic convention. I served

as chairman of the American Indian Conference. I also served as

chairman of the board of directors of the Roberson County Church

and Community Center. And, uh, lots of other things. I have ad-

ministrative work in my church and so forth.

I: You really h a full schedule don't you?

S: Yes, and getting back to my mother. My mother is Mary Ellen Moore,the

daughter of W. L. Moore and W. L. Moore was the, I call him the founder

of what is now Pesmbro e State University---Because he was the first

head of the school in 1887 and he gave to the University, what became

the University; its literal seed, its l1ats. And from this class of

f'jit people and from his leadership, grew to be what is today a big







6




university--about 80 years or more.

I: Q1s about g "e U ul.

S: Today is somewhere 4*cit 2200.

I: And it started with just 15 students?

S: 15 students. Faculty today runs something like-135. Total assets


I imagine run more than $10 million. It is headed by an Indian

president, Dr. Jones, that's English Jones. And we have a few

Indian faculty members, not too many, but we do have a few on the

faculty. On the faculty, we have myself and James Arnold Jacobs,

Andrew Ratson, and Gilton &4u(, 'Gilbert Townsend, who is on leave,

Mike kli44 O 1Griffin, Norma Jane Thompson, who is head of the

commission down there outside of the registrar, James O'Chaney

who is-p -1-V --students. Did I mention all of them?

I: I believe you got everybody. -I was thinking it all over with you,

the cAlgs in my head turning.

S: David Mana joined us this year too.

I: We had better go back to the ---.

S: Oh yes, going back.

I: Be sure when you tell us when you got married.

S: Yeah. Well, too I am the son of Noy Dial, N. H. Dial of the Prospect

community. And by the way, the two farms join, the Moore farm and

the Dial farm. And it was a case of a love affair with swamps

separating you, a quarter of a mile from there. And, then, of

course this was rather significant because this happened so often

among many of our people. For many, many years there was nt much

in a marriage taking place before World War II. And this is what







7




I call a lot of inbreeding, so to speak. It probably bee%@ f 470.

the fact diabetes rate are high here among the Indian people and

I think this is one reason for it. Now my father's father was
I am correct
Marcus Dial. Marcus Dial was born in 1838; I believethe died in

1932 at age 96. He married Elizabeth, Elizabeth Harrise, who was

half QWtf Harris. And this is significant because her father
A
was Brent Harris and she was illegitimate child and J. tHarris

was a white man who was despised by the Indian community. He was

a member of the home guard who was later killed by the Lowry wig

the Lowry band. It was always told that B t Harriswas the father

of many illegitimate children the Lumbee people. I think that accounts

for a lot of, you know, the bright skin which you see among the

Harrisaes, among the Lumbees today.

I: Well, now, you got married in what year?

S: I married in 1948.

I: Who was Mrs. Dial before you married her?

S: Mrs. Dial was the daughter of ----------Jones of Spson County

and Wilma Carter of Robertson County. As you know, there are many,

approximately 1700 Indians up in S mpson County.

I: Right.

S: And she is one of the SAmpson County-18 I say that all of

Robeoson and the adjoining belong to the same group.

I: I certainly agree.

S: If one group is in Robegtson or adjoining counties then-'f-----I

think iaf c s all the groups of Robegason.

I: How many do you have in the family now?

S: I have one daughter, Mary Doris Dial.

I: We had better get your wife's age and her age.







8



S: My wife was born 1945; no that was the first time .. --19, 1925

and that w n my wife--- ----. Anyway, she was born April,

30, 1925. Mary Doris, she was born October, October 30, of let's

see, 196 no she will be ten in October, 1960 uh, 1962, wouldn't

it?

I: Now you've got me confused now.

S: She will be ten in October. 1,4/

I: That's great. I think we need to talk a, it about your being a

delegate to the democratic convention this year, because this is
A
the first time this has happened in our history. And this year

we have the delegates to both parties, but you are the first, you

are actually the first Lumbee Indian ever to be a delegate at the
'4-
national convention- i that correct?
A
S: Yes, as far as I know, the first Indian from North Carolina.

And a-/'d4-- from North Carolina at the democratic convention.

And one or two from the East, one from Massachusetts. And of course

there are 31 delegates all together throughout the state, throughout
A /Ik'A/k.obl
the country. Ptc--

I: Well, that was an exciting adventure, if we can call it that.

Well, the telephone interrupted us briefly and we cut off at this

point. At this point we were talking about the democratic convention

and your being a delegate tis year and we said it was an exciting
A
experience. Did you meet a lot of new people?

S: Oh, yes. I met lots of new people--had a chance to rub shoulders

with the big people like the governor and former Governor Cason

and former Governor u Iog's, who was also former secretary of

commerce.







9




I: Well, what significance do you attribute to this? Do you think

at this time there is evidence that we are developing politically

as well as in other areas?

S: Yes, I think as a people we are really developing politically, as

I tell people everyday is what we need to do is use a ballot box.

You see, Lou, here in RobelLson County where we have 30,000 -_ -

people in the county.

I: Indian people.

S: Indian people of course. Where we make up about one third of the

people. There is no reason why the ballot box--no reason why it

shouldn't be very important in their lives. I think that they

black man and the Indian man s ad work together, the ballot box,

to get some of the things they ought to have. I think the answer

to the coalition against the white that that ought to be the

political strategy. Until it becomes strong enough then this

thing of race goes out the window and people just start voting

for the candidates, then everybody forgets their race as far as

the candidates go. But as long as the situation is like it is,

then that's the thing to do. You know we have never had but a few

Indian commissioners and my brother who was is presently serving

as Indian commissioner was the third one. His name is Herman Dial.

But let's go back to the first one. Before the turn of the century,

a man by the name of James wrxwm served as county commissioner

and then the second one, Tracy Sp4son, who served as county

commissioner in the 1950's and is also was the 1950's when Judge

An Blwas elected to the first Indian judge that was ever







10



elected And then we had my brother elected county commissioner

who defeated another Indian, Mr. Tracy S-apsT; he defeated

the incumbent Herman Dial who defeated Tracy Sap4n. And

we never reelected a man to the county board of education as

we would like to til this year, we elected Mrs. Eileen Holmes.

Now Mr. Harry Wdst sits there on the board of education but his

term began originally by appointment by a white man. And the

people were not quite satisfied with this because not that Mr.

Harry is not all right, but the people alwaysfelt that they should

have had the choice to choose their own people. In other words,

we had a couple of candidates running that year: Us Ktrg,

Reverend ALy 'rd Doctor Martin L. Brooks and some of the

boys in the legislature promised that if we didn't elect the

man they would appoint one of those boys. But instead, they

didn't appoint # one of the two who were running; they

appointed e-as. Ty done of them, Mr. Harjry



I: So there has been some dissatisfaction ever since because of this

do you think?

S. Yes, I think so, yes. Now, that's, I mentioned you see, politically,

that's pretty much been our accomplishment. We have Indian people

here are the campaignest people I have ever seen in my life. But
We up
they have always had the oddstagainst them; people use them and they

do the work and then when the goodies they don't seem to be able to

get very far. /I

I: And then of course, I don't think we mentioned the late Nafttr-Mlaor

whoae A.







11


S: Yes, I'm glad you mentioned the late a' hose 7/ i///-

f.aher-i4 Judge Brooke in ti tory Maxton.and-- -

..-.L..3.-9 .However, when the recorder's court

was no longer, when that position by the corporate form had

been abolished and -a try for the position

of judge running on more than' ee ,/at least two and maybe

it was three. He was defeated.

I: And he was a Lumbee Indian too?

S: Yes, f /,I ____ was a Lumbee Indian and a mightly fine
6/k 7 6?JI
father, father of Helen Chervak who today is director of Indian

Education in Washington, D.C. And I might add, Helen is

perhaps the most knowledgeable girl; --- ------rA'-round

Washington many meetings there; in meeting with her some of the

Health, Education, and Welfare boys a couple weeks ago. And

most anyone who has met Helen GCerR-k is the most knowledgeable

girl on the subject of Indian education tk anyone in this country.

Helen _hxv_ .

I: This is S-h-i-err-b-e-c-k?

S: S-c-h

I; S-c-h-i-e-r-b-e-c-k.

S: Helen Schierbeck. Helen Maynor Schierbeck.

I: Of course, that name Maynor is M-a-y-n-o-r.

S: Right, M-a-y-n-o-r.

Ad--' --A-L -- I toother people in Washington. Perhaps,

you will make a tape on them sometimes main.

r t--- __-J__. -- ---L --head of communications in the DIA ,N6

-wemmen. Louis Bruce, who -/-f-----------i------- -. And-eCnaChax,

jr^^ff^Fr r~/af ^^^nAisw^C







12


, //
o' '---W- wn Washington / o /ls -----A

S Lumbee people really move around and really do a good job,

if they have the opportunity.

I: And then you are very optimistic about the future of our

people?

S: Yes.

I: How about economic wise? AEwe showing any gains?

S: I thiikwe are showing gains economically. We have never produced

a millionaire up until this time but perhaps we will someday be
7'7-L /r
able to do this. We have organized the Lumbee Bank and had- ,
-__ _-Lumbee Bank. And I served on the Board of Directors.

Aid 4r dew d the Board of Directors of the Lumbee Bank.

And on the Board of the lumbee Bank Police too----------the

organization of the Lumbee Bank.

I: Well, since the IRhmbee Bank began operation that was several

months ago?

S: Yes.

I: It has been very successful.

S: The Lumbee Bank opened December 2, 1971. So we have been in operation

I would say about eight months. And bQ--2 -t-- ---- een operate

out of a trailer. Siaee- a.e V ^I__----- ___ -

b something like $2,200,000 We came to ------- and when our
_, ri ua-. F/',>. (, II
new bank is complete enrte construction I think this really

/ '-A ====. The bank was capitalized at 467,000 ta1; that's
"1P COWt 3
$10 per share. That's $70 000. jA ooneee or ejecting to be

elected cQieeree i- .. C-&&4t-r 4e-a nd ------ -; at least he

was a Democratic nominee where a Republican rem against him.
A











S: We had this tngA ---- -----servA a the Board of

Directors; we have a white man who is president of the bank;

Ray Ryles, the first president of Lumbee Bank. And we have.

on the Board of Directors: --f H-a-r-b-e-r-t.
,w xs 6o!I W/ 4j6u"A
Dr. Martin L. Bush and John Robert 3Jhn-, my brother-in-law. 7 /ir

And of course we are going to expand the Board -(e feel that

at least this is our plan, we need to get more involved with

_J erv P.o,
I: I have already sdid the Lumbee Bank was the first Indian bahk

of America, you being a historian.

S: I think dis is true. I think this is the first Indian bank in

the United States; that is, Indian controlled and mostly, w&ll

Indian owned;when I say this, more than 85% of the stock is owned

by Indian people and most of the employees, all of the employees

of today, six working in the bank. And all are Indians but one;

Indian-controlled, Indian-owned and Indian-operated. And we are

quite proud. Yes, the bank opened December 22, 1971. It was a

historic moment for us. We plan to have a big celebration when

we get into our new building. Right now, we have tentatively set

December 7, 1972 the date we hope to have our new d".

I: That's,great.

S: I might add next to the Lumbee Bank, we are going to have 12,700

foot store, a Stanley Store, which is a chain, not as large as some

chains of stores we own; this, I believe was the 29th store; we had

inspected then or operate the h& of Pennebrooke.

I; Do you think the bank will have the affect, perhaps, is having the

effectof making it easier for Lumbee Indians to secure loans and

this sort of thing because of the me en that the Lumbee Bank






14



is getting the other banks.

S: Yes, I can see a difference all right in here. I understand,

they haven't done it yet, but I understand that the First Union

Bank is already talkhdg about putting some Lumbees on their Board

of Directors. If they do we can say that the Lumbee Bank caused

them to do this. And they hired a couple of Lumbee Indians recently

to work in their bank. This is what a n will do.

I: Well, that is wonderful. How about the school system; are you

satisfied with our present school system or others because there

is always room for improvement. Are you satisfied--?

S: I am not satisfied, as a matter of fact/ I worked in the school

system, a public school teacher; I was a principal in Flagler

University. I am still not satisfied with the school system.

The reason I am not satisfied; I feel that we, as part of /1-

Robegson Count aae never gotten our share. Another thing

that is very unfair too is that we have six administrative units

and the city units like Red Springs, Maxton, ,

Lumberton, St. Pauls, y an-e7ee. These people have

their own chartered units and yet they vote in our elections to

elect their board of education. And yet we don't vote in theirs

but they vote in ours. I believe this double really is uncon-

stitutional but the city IZundereo s 4like we pay a tax to the

city and also to the county. But zp me that's not really a valid

argument.

I; Well, maybe we should mention here that the Robetson County system

as its known, the student body is made up primarily of Lumbee Indian

students.








'1 15

I: 57% of the Robeitson County system is made up of Luibee Indian

students and the blacks and Lumbees make up 81%. So you see

there's not many whites in the Robeatson County system. But

the whites are controlli g it--they have all the board members

at this time but one hey are controlling it and of course, this
When
isn't right. I hope~ someone reads this transcript many, many years

from today that the situation will have changed. We are working

for change now. We are trying to burst the system open with change.

Now it seem u are being very successful and this reminds me of

the part which is being played by the United Methodist Church, which

you are a member, I believe.

S: Yes, I am a member of the United Methodist Church. As a matter of

fact, Lew, I was elected a delegate this year to the Southeast

Jurisdiction Conference which met the same week that the Democratic

Convention met so I couldn't &p in two places at the same time so

I sent my alternate to the Southeast Jurisdiction conference. This

is one time I took politics ahead f church work.

I: Perhaps, ;fA s should go hand in hand. Could you tell us a little

more specifically the way the United Methodist Church is working

to help non-whites in the area?

S: Well, yes, I have been responsible to a great degree for bringing

s0 Ar money into the area. I served on the La3mee Advisor Committee

of Indian work of ae Methodist Church which put me in a position
It Robsot
to help get what is known as the-tbSlen County Church and Community

Center funded. I was able to bring in $30,000 at one time. And

then I was able to bring in several more thousand dollars at a different







16



time. I don't mean I was, you know, get-es a loan. But I was in

a case about where I could have some -. Also, I

mentioned among the Indian Carcae we were funded for $20,000

for voter registration project in 1971. And we have been funded

again Sr $15,000 recently. And we ware -- -

"t Fret years from now. We have some more Indian candidates

running.

I: Well, I am certainly eneC-o.4i.d


END OF SIDE ONE







17

SIDE TWO

I: Can you recall where you were when we ran out of tape?

S: Yes, well, one thing I was going to say Lew, one thing that

certain to be encouraging, I mentioned funds that we received

from the United Methodist Church. And some of the funds

came from the Commission on Religion and Race: the Lumbee

Indian Geaease for the voter registration became the Commission

on Religion and Race for the United Methodist Church. But we

had Methodists in the area, even Indian Methodists who opposed

this. And this is rather discouraging to see that people would

send you money from far away and then somebody lying at home for

political reasons don't want to stay 4t work and don't want to

see their house torn down. I am speaking of the Apetondos, not

the Tomahawks, who don't like to see such projects working well,

They would like to know we are 2-- L

I: Do you think perhaps some of this may, not all of it, but maybe

some of it is because the lack of understanding or the lack of
I:.-
communication, proper %d4d communications, you know, public

information; some of our people are still illiterate and that sort

of thing? Does this complicate it to some degree, do you think?

S: Well, its true, illiteracy, lack of education, and you know, this

does casue some cf our people to think along t hesline 1 .But some

of our people, I suppose, have an education also think along these

lines. They know that thy are working to tear their playhouse down.

And they don't want it torn down.

I: U11, I think that is true of any community, that problem, don't you?

S: Well, yes, you must keep in mind, as the story goes, power is never







18



given, it is always taken. So, people with power they just

don't hand out t goodies.

I: They hold onto it.

S: They would rather hold onto it.

I; Some of the power is changing hands and it's changing from weste

to wabe; I think, now you mentioned earlier in the tape, the

correlation between Indians and blacks and maybe you would like

to talk a little more about that and tell us just how this has

worked; I know in at least one instance we have been very successful

and perhaps in other areas too.

S: Well, I think when you are in the minority, I think if you have,

as say we have here in Robeqtson County, three ethnic groups and

you know, they're in the minority. If the two can unite and become

the majority, then when they are being denied anything, then the

only thing to do is to unite publically in their cause.

I; I was thinking in particular of one of our tbad brothers whom

we have sent to Raleigh; he has been nominated again. Is this

correct?

S: Yes. Joey Johnston for the state house; the Indians giving him

good support. Rev. Joey Johnston, North Carolina legislature--

he was the first black man tn-m elected to the North Carolina

legislature.

I: Of course our bi brotheifeels the other way and I guess this

is .

S: I will put it this way: if he was not the first, he was one of the

first. Do you recall if he werethe first?












I: I don't know. I believe there might have been some during

Reconstruction.

S: I didn't mean during Reconstruction. I meant now, you know

in this century.

I: Certainly in this century. Well, the white politicians in the

county, of course, this would be against their interest R /Xf'

coalition, wouldn't it?

S: Oh yes, they, the white people of the county, go to the Indians

and say "you don't want to fool with the black politics" and

go to the blacks, "you don't want to fool with the IndianS 01d

politics'.' And naturally they don't want a coalition because

this would tear their house down.

I: Do you think sometimes some pretty low tricks are resorted to?

S: Oh, yes. There have been a few cases where white landlords

told their farmers not to go vote or plan for them to work

all day, where they couldn't go vote and so forth. "Jily use

threats, economic threats--of course, the man can't vote anyway

if he's never been a booth before; he deliberately figures

this is something he can't do. He doesn't want to be embarrassed

and so forth; consequently, a lot of people stay at home and not

get around to vote.

I: But we are preaching the gospel of the ballot like we preached the

gospel of education and they are passed on.

S: I think various Indian communities are different. For instance,

some Indian communities where they have only four or five hundred

people, they can't hope to do much at the ballot box. So maybe they







20



will work on their problems some other way. I think here that

the ballot box is the place where we lead the way.

I: We were talking about the gains we have made. Now two different

people have been nominated to the Robeeson Board of Commissioners.
q0^
ThisA& on a staggered basis.

S: Yes, we forgot to mention a while ago that M A. Lockler was
A
elected this year to the County Board of Commissioners. My brother

Herman Dial and Bobby Bane Lockmere that will give us two now out

of the seven. And Elmer Lowry,ET.Lowry was running, another LumbeeJ

and he should have won in his race without any trouble but as a

matter of fact, E.T. Lowry told me that he felt confident he'd win

and he didn't feel he would have any double. Most people felt that

way so he was so confident e lost. If he had won that race, we

would have had three of the seven.

I: The person who is over-confident won't work quite as hard as you

will .

S: That's right, if you're over-confident you won't work as hard.
ota I I
I: I aw something that your brother, the commissioner, said once.

I commented to him you know, I said I think you've got it sewed

up. He said, "No, I never say something like that til the last

vote is counted." And he has always worked so very hard, you know.

He never assumes anything. And I think this is very fine.

S: Church is never out until the last benediction.

If Right.

S: The same way in politics.

I: How about the understanding of our people. Do you think people are

beginning to understand us better?








21



S: Well, I would hope so. I would hope so.
pret
I: We have been mentioned many times in the pae for one reason

or another, especially since 1958 and are you familiar with

the study of our schools which was conducted in 1968 by the

United States Office of Education?

S: Yes. The Havent-Hurst Study--Havent-Hurst University of Chicago

sociologyr-I have great respect.

I: Would you mind going .

S: Dr. Gregory Peck from NC State College. Ydu worked with that

program I don't know as much about it as you know perhaps

Kut I understand that research reveals that the Lumbee Indians

here who were never 0 wardsof the government, who were never

a reservated Indian group were oing much better at the schools

than those Indians who were on the reservation.

I: Do you think this indicates that some people are given a say

in their destiny in this particular instance in their educational

destiny? Do you think this is a great encouragement for the

Indian people universally?

S: I think so. I think so.

I: Well, there are so many areas we could get into. Are you getting

tired?

S: No, go ahead, we will finish this page.

I: You've been active in so many different areas)and I have looked

forward to this interview because of this. Itr-is very '.ai bl,-

thi1 in.r. M ucm n t-lL.- It's a very valuable interview

because we know you check out your facts and you are so knowledgeable

in things concerning our people. How about, could ye say something












about our church life? Do you know some people go away and

write, they come here and visit very briefly;they go away 4qo Urr,

their stories. One anthropologist stated in his book that

Indian survivors generally including us in this, we-are not

interested in religion. He was very mistaken, was he not?

S: Yes, I guess so; here among the Lumbees, we seem to have lots

of churches.

I: If the churches is any indication, we certainly compare

favorably with the two other races, wouldn't youamy?

S: I would say so; that is a number of churches.

I: How about the trained ministry? I know we have some well-

trained ministers among our people. Is there a need for more

of this, do you think?

S: Yes, I think so. As a matter of fact, in the ministries, I might

add here, all over the country, we only have, as far as we know,

we only have five Indian ministers around the country-- five or

six with a BD degress in the Methodist Church. I can't speak

about other denominations. Here among our people, we have only

a couple with B.D. degrees who are here--Reverand Jamas Earl Wood,

-A" ---seminary graduate, Reverand Coolidge -' a

graduate of a seminary school in Texas.

I; And so you don't think the interest of religion among Lumbee Indians

is diminishing?

S: I don't think so. But you will find among some of the Indians around

the country that they are -4' -some of them g to go back

to their native religion.









23



I: Do you think this a sort of a protest?

S: Well, I don't think it is a protest so much as just as

t satisfied with the white man's religion n
4-o
why should the missionaries have us drop our own religion

and take the religion of the white man? Therefore, some of

them would like to go back to their native religion.

I: Some groups never,I am sure,they never did depart really.

They still have their native religion Christianity has

really affected the Indian world. I remember, if I am correct, IA&af

one of our own ministers, Reverand Claudey Dial, wasn't the

Seminoles of Florida the last ones to be reached with the gospel?

The last group of American Indians?

S: I don't know about whether they were the last or not but I do know

Reverand Claudey Dial as a first cousin of mine. He was a first

cousin of yours by the way. He went down on the Tammany Trail, on
down
Highway 41. I have been there. And he built a little church there.

The church is in the area of the Mcat_ y; but most people who

attend the church are the Seminoles. The M!&casnnhy do not do not

go to much church.

I: But theyA church has had some success. About how long has that church

been going, do you think?

S: He told me this year, let's see that church has been going about Is

years so it was somewhere in the early 60's when Rev. Claudy Dial

began his work among the Seminole Indians on the emasny Trail.

The church is located about, oh, or 4 mills out from, about half

way between Naples and Miami from the Temnrmy Trail, on the left








-24


hand side going from Naples to Miami.

I: Do you think the Lumbee Indians generally.

S: Right in the swamp right next to the highway.
generally
I: Do you think the Lumbee Indiansiwould like to spread Christianity

further, that they are interested in, you know, reaching other

groups?

S: I guess some of them would. I suppose somewhat tBt the missioner/ ,i d

would. In that respect, I suppose they are more like the white

man. Of course, what I would like to see them do is put more of

it I practice right here at home.

I: Into the religion?

S: Yes, I'd like for them to be concerned more their fellow man.

I- J-i---------- an article I did for the New World Outlook,

May 1972; The New World Outlook is a publication done by the

Presbyterian or Methodist Church from 475 Riverside Drive, New

York City. The title of the article is "A Lumbee Indian Still the

Lost Colony" by Adolf Dial. Speaking of churches, I note here in
A
this that. .

I: Maybe you can give us some excerpts from that,0'?

S: Well, all right, I thoughtI would. I see one thing here. "The burden

of education deprivation in RobeVpson falls equally among the races.

The county system unit, *7.6% Lumbee, $2.6% black, and 19.8% white.

Only 14.2% of the county high school graduates go onto college--a

four year college; 43.3% go directly into employment. Despite the

fact that the county school system students are 80% black and Lumbees,

the county board of education consists of only one black, only one

Lumbee, and five whites. I might add we elected Miss Eileen Holmes







25



this year. She hasn't taken office yet; she will take office in

December so that will be one more e -=_-e 2 iL

"-Miss Eileen lb lmes.

I: Of course, you are assuming that nomination is tantamount to

election, in this county.

S: Yes, pretty much so democratic. However, there are some in

those laces Republican looks like there will be some.

I; w" agree with you.

S: "The office controlled by the white and lack of opportunity for

blacks and Lumbees in high administration may be one of the reasons
irJ
for the county system for performance Xe* sending students on to

college. In civic education and voter registration the Commission

on Religion and Race of the United Methodist Church donated $20,000

to the Lumbee Indian 4a&eges. Viewing more statistics by the

Robeison County Church and Community Center, it is eaykaw recognized
(t&cas CfWar4 at,//Q -*
that the Lumbee Indian Genfevet was a -worty-. j -t. The statistics

W/ */AW only 31,400 people were registered to vote in Robertson County on June

9, 1970. Over 40,000 were over 21 years of age; of the 31,400 registered,

16,207 were white; 16,193 black and Lumbee. So black and Lumbee to-

gether comprised 61% of the population. There were 30,189 registered

Democratic; 946 Republicans and 265 others. I might say that the

voter registration we had this year would add close to 4,000 Lumbees

to that list. But we are in better shape than when this article Vas

written.
O61A
I: Do you think people are beginning to see the light?
S: I think so. I think they are beinnin to see the light.
S: I think so. I think they are beginning to see the light.







26



I: Yolmentioned the Community Church, the Robetson County

S: Church Community Center.

I: Excuse me, I didn't remember it correctly.

I: You published a very, very important folder of statistics.

Did you not? This little folder had some very startling

statistics relating to RobeTjson County. And .tree races
A
and their income, their annual income. Do you remember what

the annual income was--I believe the year you quoted.

S: I can't remember, I can't recall the income but it was mightly
-v
low. First it was high than I would say the annual income of

most of the reservations.

I: lAt" you compared either the black income, annual income u;*

the Indian income with the white family income in the same county--

wi *p1rJ bly bear great difference.

S: Yes, that's true.

I: We've often, maybe not often, but we have been spoken of as one
-o middle
of the few Indian groups et produce solidN class. And, about

how largedo you think this middle class is among our people?

S: Well, we have a lot of teachers. I suppose we could say we have

a middle class. I don't know and I couldn't say what percent of

our people would fall into the middle class. But I think a good

example of exploitation is that we have never produced a millionaire.
A1 A
And another example is that where we have 57% of the student body

in the county system of schools,we don't have anybody there in a

top position.

I: Do you think this is due to other conditions besides the ability,
7
native ability and preparation.

S: You mean the Indian being behind, or what?








27



I: Yes, and the fact that we don't have many Indians in the RobeiEson

County system. We don't have an Indian superintendent which I

think we both agree we should have.

S: I find, you know Lew, around the country on certain reservations

that they are short of leadership. There is one thing about it,

the Lumbees have lots of leadership and its not lack of leadership A4?e

the reason we don't have more people in key positions, it's a

matter of race. And, as I said earlier, you just don't give away

your goodies, youkiow, you kin of demand them or take them Well,

now, when the Robertson County Indian School System was established

in 1885, it was established as a separate unit, wasn't it?

S: The legislation of 1885, which provided for separate schools, yes.

And if we didn't use the money in two years, it was to revert back

to the states. And of course that only was for salaries, it was not

for buildings.

I: And this law stated that Indians would have teachers of their own

choice and principals, and so forth in the 1885 law?

S: Yes, they would have Indians here basically that's what it was in-

tend d.

I: And he law which established what is now Pe'dbroke StateUniversity

was the law of 1887 two years later, wasn't it?

S: Yes, yes. The law of 1885 made the provision for it and then the

school was established in/V7. You see the law in 1885 said, in

other words, we give you a few years to have a school. Then in/S87

they established P school.

I: Right. Well,xe have still come a long way though, don't you think?






28


I: Especially since 1835 when we were expelled from such white
-rP >st oiqf
schools there were at that time. Are-thee people who attended
A
the schools?

S: Yes, yes. The interesting thing about the history of the school7-

one, that never did make much sense to me in a way, looking at it

today it didn't make much sense. The schools of Robetson County

were established were made for the people of Robeoson. And for

years we kept out the people from adjoining counties and even

the Navabh couldn't come to our schools at one time. The school

in------------------------was rather absurb. Of course, the

idea that the Indian people had
want their race of people to be mixed anymore than what it was

I: Although we have always been regarded as a mixed people, right?

S: RIht. I know the i--O-.--Baptist Association records

the first minutes they ever kept; I read those. You know they

didn't keep minutes in 1880 but in 1881 they did keep minutes.

The minutes read, Swamp Baptist Assocation of a mixed

race." Of course, then in 87, I mean in '85 we were designated

as -__--_a.. ..

I: That's interesting. What do you think people outside the Lumbee

River Community who are interested in helping us and I am sure t A4c.

P' we have many friends and I think this is something we have needed

in the past. I think we have more friends now than ever. What do

you think they could do to help the situation--the overall situation

as it exists today?







29



S: I don't know. Funded programs and so forth would help. All of

this, I think would be beneficial to our people. As of yet, we

have never hadtindian lawyer to practice law in Robertson County.

However, Horaae Lockbird who has just passed the bar in the last 'wo

or O weeks is going to set up office in Lumberton. So he will be

the first Indian lawyer to practice law in Robe*son/LOtA

I: I asked Commission lTue about the reason that lawyers we do have

don't practice in the county-or in the state. He said they were

never able to pass the bar exam and those who did study law had

to practice where they could practice and they could pass in the

other states but for some reason they couldn't pass the bar exam

here.

S: I think it is a little different now, you see. tha-n% the black

man has opened up the way and it is mighty easy now to yell
40o
discrimination. So I think this is the advantage of the Indian, J Oo,

I: We desperately need legal talent, don't we?

S: Yes, we do. There's a demand for legal talent.

I: I know in the case of the school case, which is still pending; it

has been pending since 1970, I began to doubt that it will ever

be tried, but in this instance, legal talent comes for about

$30,000 per hour and this is enormous it seems to me. It seems

to me we need lawyers to be hired by the group, wouldn't you think

that would be a good idea?

S: Well, we need lawyers practicing in the area, you know, Indian
A
people need to use. They need to be successful lawyers. They

need their own lawyers.






30


A /Vow /01*.f k lYQ2ftl w
I: A Do you think justice, legal justice has been proved within

recent years?

S: I think so.

I: Of course, some of us are planning to begin a newspaper again

and this is something that has been done in the past several

times and for one reason or anothergScP papers failed and

probably because of lack of financial support. Do you think

an Indian newspaper that served the Lumbee Indians and their

friends could be successful today?

S: Well, I think all newspapers of small towns have trouble with

newspapers but I feel that there is a down here for a

newspaper.

I: In other words / /' + ep

S: We've had two or three attempts; the next one will be more

successful. The last one failed the Lumbee and then there

was the Peaebro&e Progress, any more?

I: Yes, there were several others dating back to 1810. I don't know
A ./Maybe
very much about them. I t seems we have been unsucces.Maybe

this is primarily because we have many subscribers but not much

advertising support.
among our people
S: You mean there are Indian newspapers of our people dating back to

18109- the Lumbees?

I: Yes, there was one, but I am sure there was at least one other

newspaper and it was 1910, I'm sory. I'm very sorry, I guess

we're both a little weary at this point. The town is certainly

developing due largely to the increase of the PeaivbroAe State

University. Wouldn't you think?







31


S: Yes, I think so, <" ^"

I: What can we do to rule and win some of the students and faculty to

support things like the project at this time?

S: Well, the town has to have more services. Most of them go down to

Lumberton to the A & P and do grocery shopping and so forth. We

need a few good chain stores.

I: It seems they come here and you know, get their education and go

back to Lumberton, the county seat, and they don't spend any

money, to speak of, in Peabroe.

S: That's true.

I: And I have observed the same thing, I believe in connection with

the Lumbee recreation facilities. What could you tell us about

tij This is such a worthy project.

S: Well, the Lumbee Recreation Center which developed a few years ago,

within the last decade. I was one of the charter members. This

money, the United States Government granted a loan. The loan was

made, I think, what money was borrowed oit -- ----

administration. I understand from the North Carolina Teachers'

Association. Of course, the government, the F.H.A. had to guarantee

the loan. So this big project was constructed. 800 acre 3Je, so

to speak; 18 hole golf course; swimming pool; softball court with

lights; place for fishing. So the Lambee Recreation Center could be

a real number one thing; however, right now its suffering from financial



I: And this debt has to be paid off, doesn't it?

S: Oh, I don't know whether it has to be paid. Somebody, the government

can write it off. Someone said that's what ought to be done. They






32



really owe it to the community. That's all--this land is our

land. This land at one time all belonged to the Indians. So

why not give the Indians a little of it back?

I: It would certainly be a wonderful thing if we could find channels

to get this debt paid off and open it up to you know, to those

who, well 0 some of our poor as well as the wealthy. The way it

is set up now is by membership, isn't it? I mean you pay so much

a year and not everyone can afford it.

S: $180 per year now. Initial membership is $360 charter members.

I: It's showing some progress.

S: Yes, te poor people that can't get enough of the $180 membership

to make a do of it.

I: Well, I certainly hope something can be done along these lines

some way of helping--it is such a worthy project. I have heard

the complaint that nobody else other than the Indians use it

at all, hardly use it at all. I imagine b*ae-e membership would

be welcome too, would it not as membership?

S: Oh yes, welcome any membership.

I: That's one more problem we can think about and gain about, isrit it?

S: That's right. It will work out better some day.

I: We have seen a lot of, well maybe not many dreams realized in your

lifetime and mine, but we have certainly seen some of these, some of

our dreams realized. Some of the dreams I have shared and you shared

and other people.

S: Oh yes. Things have changed a lot in the last few years, And although

I can go back to 1958, and you know that if four years after 1954

when Brown revision, the famous Brown revision, the Supreme Court made.

I was out in Paramient, North Carolina. I was down there with some






33



other friends and my wife and two white students were over at the

University. I think they were the first wite students that were
A
enrolled there; that was about all the white students we had there

and two or three other people. We were going to attend a square

dance; I was in line ready to get tickets for the group and I

noticed one of the town cops he kept eying me; he finally walked

over. He said, "Are you from Peabrodk I sai es. He

said, "Are you Indian?" I said yes. He said, "Well, you can't

go in." This is very interesting. It shows how racism went.

It was all right til I told him who I was and where I was from -j4 .-

ptts prejudice began to show.

I: I think its ironic, don't you,that although we have had prejudiced

factors against us all these years, we are still willing and we

encourage actually integration at PSUand I think nobody has com-

plained about that to this day. I think this is something that

everybody has agreed on.

S: Almost everybody.

I: Almost everybody. The only thing, they complain once in a while now,

because naturally they are strictly in the minority now of course

e(alWays will be simply because there are more of other races.

And we bring in people from all over the state, don't we? Many parts

of the United States.

S: Yes, yes. In the university today, we have about 10% Indian and

a little more than 200 I would say Indian students, and less than
-tV4 f4 -o
50 black, A\ I"d white. So we could say the University has changed

considerably z'm an all Indian school.

I: Do you think working intimately with the diversity .

PAGE 1

TAPE THIRTEEN LUMBEE INDIANS AUGUST 25, 1971$ ADOLPH DIAL INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON I: Professor Dial, we appreciate the opportunity to interview you and thank you for allowing us to do so. I would like to talk to you in a very relaxed atmosphere. The sky is the limit. We most of the talking. First of all, though, we would like to have, if we may, biographical information about yourself and Doctor Sandlin, if you S: Well, Lew, I ~s born December 12, 1922, on .!,PUte 30, Maxton, North Carolina in Robe111lson County, in what is known as the "prospect II h I . d f h ld ~r/,'(I;.., = . . connnunity as w at consi. er one o t e o -.::d:~------connnun1.t1es of Robe~on County. I: Right, and that is spelled p-r-o-s-p-ec-t. S: ~l'f., -:z;u/,'otJ Yes. And perhaps as much ~u-t;tan blood, if I may use the term f ~,u :r .. J,t1t.. . q /()NfJJ blooa in the prospect connnunity-:..atte long spot among the t..QcA'/ur..S 9 a~l/4,,-/-J ls t few , eers and some of the kg tJ n ;;:..,. , as you would find anywhere •~/hi /(g6~N-,/ in the (!flf! ....... T ___ of ~-. I attended elementary school in 1939 and entered f&nebruoke, Prospect, graduated from hfgh school in /!bnt#tt,_ what is today Pe~-OGke State U9iv~sity. But at that time, the ./fJ-~L-& University was known as~oke State College. for Indians. t?'.f )?:Jtt. JI lf,1d!M., J.t, L,(,, 1/Mf IJl ;.. e ,,University has had many gains over the years, started~ Q~ tJOftr'IA( school in 1887 and later the Cherokee ~;J.ormal school .,

PAGE 2

2 later State Peff!J..i,rot.:tate C:llege 7J': Indians and then Pei::',ebro~ College and then Pea,rebroAe State University. And last year, 1971, well, really this year, 1972, we had become tired of the regular University system. But getting back to myself, I m graduated from P~ebrooke State University in 1943. I went into the service in April, April 23rd of 1943. I believe I said '43, . /;i did I not? Anyway, that's correct. Anyway, April 23r&~Iient into the service and I would have graduated in June. As a matter of fact, -' .. c_W __ /_t'_"__ I did graduate in June in Because most of the universities colleges and universities at this state and I suppose in the country, were given full credit for a half semester's work if you were called ~/4-e,~A. to do service for your country. So I graduated in ftcBeft~ttft----. At that time, at the time of graduation I was ~~asic training at Fort Eustis, Virginia. As I recall, graduation,~is s~metimes in ,'+ W"t w"tt.fJtir ,'N(t~sf,.-,f, ~1t.ff-~ dP,li~d.V:SS,rF Ju:; tbe:rg uae an inteteet "!!~World War II which I was thare fsc b~, which I was a little bit disappointed. I was unable to come home.for graduation. So I suggested to the President of the University, Dr. R. D. Wellen, that my diploma be presented to my mother, so she, my mother, Mrs.R •. A. Dial, better known as "sugar maude" before she married Harry Allan Dial. Lots of people call here sugaE--s-u-g-a-r. I: She is a very sweet person,~ S: Thank you. I even requested she march in my place, and of course, she did. And North Carolina mother told me Governor Ho"/, who was the governor of the state of at that time, gave the commencement address. My .f4k,.~ (J / about dHf~ th.: partKit was a very unusual thing.

PAGE 3

I: S: I enjoyed it very much. lllfa5t.d,~ I graduated that year in I was proud of the fact that I was listed in "Who's Who". Which year was this? f In 19 43 or ' 42. I think it was 19 4 3;/ ~: was listed in l1Who' s Who" among the.students in universities and colleges. And I graduated cum laude. And I was overseas, as well as I recall, and arrived overseas in the fall, sometimes in the fall in England, in 1943. And I spent two years, it was in October or November I arrived in England. And I spent two years overseas and I-/~ff_t~~ovember of 1945 and I came back, retired with six battle stars. Never did 3 A.L ntV+t.:.. shoot a man to my knowledge, I wasBP't:in aa}7 aircraft. And I guess I was, as I often say, I never did shoot a man and I was never shot at. Often times, I tell my students about this. They began to feel sorry for me when I say, "Well, I nsver aid shoot anyone, and as far as I know,ias never shot at." They say, "Well, how did you get six battle stars?" I tell them I jlst happened to be there at the right ti.me, being in an anti-aircraft outfit. I: I want to interrupt just a moment. I hate to interrupt you chain of thought coming out so beautifully. We had better put the date of your birth and your present occupation. S: December 12, 1922. I: And now your occupation. S: Now, I am the head of a new, just beginning this year, a new program, American Indian Studies Department. Also, this American Indian Studies Department met last night for the first time last evening. A contemporary American Indian problems course. I have 26 students.

PAGE 4

wu)< wh ul And I think next eme we meet, there will be eight or ten more. /I The class such as this we are doing it on Monday, Wednesday, and Fridaylas 40 students. A' course of the course Indian. And,~in archeology, that is History of the American 1~rivr Professor Gordon's ;,,b, is 4 doing well too. So we are beginning with three courses and I think ..JAof we are off to a very good start. We are looking forward to it. And by the way, in my Contemporary American Indian Studies course, it cane out just as I wanted it. I have exactly half white and half Indians, all Lumbees. And it is nice it came out that way. 1/J;H't,,V I: Maybe we-hed go back and pick up where you were. I don't want to miss anything. You were telling about your service during World War II. S: After World War II Mrs. Dial-I: Let's get back to my mother later on. After World War II, I returned home}and I was self-employed on the farm for a year. You could draw self-employment. And I was employed on the farm for a year. And then t o ,v ()l"k /tl I went to Detroit in 1947, the fall of 1947, owt e the uar e,1111e the automotive industry. I pointed this out for the fact that many of our people, several hundred, were in Detroit. And several hundred -f(iwere in Baltimore; about 3500 J day, maybe 4,000 in Baltimore. And perhaps maybe a couple a thousand Lumbees in Detroit today and I worked there till February for five months. And I got th 7 ~~ortunity _ 1 t,,-,{f :J-} ,._,./uf CM, t' public schools/I I was printo return to Pe~broke to teach in the cipal of Prospect High School from 1958; 1955 through 1958. And I taught in the public schools for several years in P~ro~ High School and Prospect High School, Magnolia High School for one year. 0fcourse, I have been with the~~ersity now for 14 years.

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5 S: And that tells pretty much about myself. I might add that fl(J IJ LI h t,,U,J IA, this year I am-.,: very busy man, I receivai$19,276 grant from Ford Foundation to do research on the Lumbee Indians of North Carolina. I: That was an exciting project, wasn't it? S: Yes it was. And the publication I hopeto get to the press by next summer. Arid I have enjoyed it very much. Also, this year I served as chairman of the advisory committee on Indian work of the United Methodist Church, with headquarters at 475 Riverside Drive in New York City. Also, this year I had a wonderful experience. I worked about 20-25 days with Margaret Meade and about 32 or 33 other scholars from around the country where we have a publication coming 7 1 --' "JJ sA II (/ l., 0 (J J.) 0 ,, T"0 /7J,,f" I II out.called .!I!-fte ---------~ in November of this year. 6 Y e_rv.:;5 It will be out now in a couple of months, friendship~I also this year have been involved with voter registration. I -lo was elected a delegate~ the Democratic convention. I served as chairman of the American Indian Conference. I also served as chairman of the board of directors of the Robe.son County Church and Community Center. And, uh, lots of other things. I have ad ministrative work in my church and so forth. +I: You really~ a full schedule don't you? S: Yes, and getting back to my mother. My mother is Mary Ellen Moore,the daughter of W. L. Moore)and W. L. Moore was the, I call him the founder of what is now Pe~bro~ State University---liecause he was the first head of the school in 1887 1 and he gave to the University, what became the University; its literal seed, its r:i.';;? And from this class of /.ffffitJ 4 I tl,.people and from his leadership, grew to be what is today a big

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6 I: S: university--about 80 years or more. 0#s about BuAefs u'fa: . ./j,(.,, t--JJr-~11~~ tVfJW? E Qd)ttr .d Today is somewhere~~ 2200. I: And it started with just 15 students? S: 15 students. Faculty today runs something like135. Total assets I imagine run more than $10 million. It is headed by an Indian president, Dr. Jones, that's English Jones. And we have a few Indian faculty members, not too many, but we do have a few on the faculty. On the faculty, we have myself and James Arnold Jacobs, Andrew Ratson, and Gilton ~~:{)rGilbert Townsend, who is on leave, O teA.4irJ MikeKlttr,'et Griffin, Norma Jane Thompson, who is head of the commission down there outside of the registrar, James O'Chaney who is-J2aAh!-..af' __ students. Did I mention all of them? I: I believe you got everybody. 'l was thinking it all over with you, the cl~s in my head turning. S: David Mana joined us this year too. I: We had better go back to the S: Oh yes, going back. I: Be sure when you tell us when you got married. S: Yeah. Well, too I am the son of Noy Dial, N. H. Dial of the Prospect community. And by the way, the two fat:ms join, the Moore farm and the Dial farm. And it was a case of a love affair with swamps separating you, a quarter of a mile from there. And, then, of course this was rather significant because this happened so often among many of our people. For many, many years there was net much in a marriage taking place before World War II. And this is what

PAGE 7

7 I call a lot of inbreeding, so to speak. the fact diabetes rate are high here among the Indian people and I think this is one reason for it. Now my father's father was I am correct Marcus Dial. Marcus Dial was born in 1838; I believethe died in 1932 at age 96. He married Elizabeth, Elizabeth Harris~ho was -Wl"61 ""'/. J;r,// halfzFa/\Harris. And this is significant because her ~ather was Brent Harris and she was illegitimate child and J. H~rris was a white man who was despised by the Indian community. He was a member of the home guard who was later killed by the Lowry 1iC:::'f -foM" ~1,trl-lv a,,,,, the Lowry band. It was always told that ~t HarrisE("was the father tflVIO>l1 /\ of many illegitimate children/\the Lumbee people. I think that accounts for a lot of, you know, the bright skin which you see among the Harris%s", among the Lumbees today. I: Well, now, you got married in what year? S: I married in 1948. I: Who was Mrs. Dial before you married her? S: Mrs. Dial was the daughter of -----------Jones of ~pson County and Wilma Carter of Robertson County. As you know, there are many, approximately 1700 Indians up in sfmpson County. I: Right. S: -q_. I And she is one of the S.,.mpson County-t'Mfl~'.i. I say that all of Robe.son and the adjoining belong to the same group. I: I certainly agree. S: If one group is in Robe'(J:son or adjoining counties then-==----=---I '1/,r:tf is -J..-ut o { thinkA~ e,Aall the groups of Robe-son. I: How many do you have in the family now? S: I have one daughter, Mary Doris Dial. I: We had better get your wife's age and her age.

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S: 8 JS tf( /d t/Scorr./JOIV My wife was born 1945; no that was the first time~ •. --19~i'll925 (llov It/ /!_'1 f LI 7 " and that , as I ~n my wife---L------. Anyway, she was born April, 30, 1925. Mary Doris, she was born October, October 30, of let's see, 19J, no she will be ten in October, 1960 uh, 1962, wouldn't it? I: Now you've got me confused now. S: I: She will be ten in October. /;ft! Q) That's great. I think we need to talk a/it about your being a fllq~11flll delegate to thi,democratic convention this year, because this is the first time this has happened in our history. And this year we have the delegates to both parties, but you are the first, you are actually the first Lumbee Indian ever to be a delegate at the If-national conventionif that correct? A S: Ye,, as far as I know, the first Indian from North Carolina. I: And a-dd~-f~from North Carolina at the democratic convention. And one or two from the East, one from Massachusetts. And of course t,N{ q/-ftrfJtt#5 there are 31 delegate~all together throughout the stae, throughout the country. -~'fi'lf-!.!.bll!.i.!)~ ___ ...IJ.fd..!L!:t ___ r ___ t_li.~1t.ls... __ ~OM,z, wli ,/'"(!., artJuNJ q, v Well, that was an exciting adventure, if we can call it that. Well, the telephone interrupted us briefly and we cut off at this point. At this point we were talking about the +LOJtO and your being a delegat7\fhis year and we said experience. Did you meet a lot of new people? democratic convention it was an exciting S: Oh, yes. I met lots of new people--had a chance to rub shoulders with the big people like the governor and former Governor Cason Lvft,J.,, f/4/ f,uS and former Governor~ Modgd'Ps, who was also former secretary of connnerce.

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.. I: Well, what significance do you attribute to this? Do you think at this time there is evidence that we are developing politically as well as in other areas? S: Yes, I think as a people we are really developing politically~ 2 s I tell people everyday is what we need to do is use a ballot box. 9 You see, Lou, here in Robe8son County where we have 30,000 -(2.i.k.~-people in the county. I: Indian people. S: Indian people of course. Where we make up about one third of the people. There is no reason why the ballot box--no reason why it shouldn't be very important in their lives . I think that theFt:,.a,N c black man and the Indian man sliea!l!d--work together, the ballot box, to get some of the things they ought to have. I think the answer to the coalition against the white that that ought to be the political strategy. Until it becomes strong enough then this thing of race goes out the window and people just start voting for the candidates, then everybody forgets their race as far as the candidates go. But as long as the situation is like it is, then that's the thing to do. You know we have never had but a few Indian commissioners and my brother who was is presently serving as Indian commissioner was the third one. His name is Herman Dial. But let's go back to the first one. Before the turn of the century, 01wcl.wt a man by the name of James~ served as county commissioner J4 t,1J $ON and then the second one, Tracy~, who served as county ,•tJl -rho.f commissione} in the 1950's and is also wasAthe 1950's wh.ehl Judge t:;:lf /!,'5;~~r was elected to the first Indian judge that was ever

PAGE 10

10 elected!\ l!;od then we had my brother el:i:ounty cmmnissioner who defeated another Indian, Mr. Tracy ; he defeated ~tJP'Jj5M) the incumbent Herman Dial who defeated Tracy~And we never reelected a man to the county board of education as we would like tortilJthis year, we elected Mrs. Eileen Holmes. Now Mr. Harry West sits there on the board of education but his term began originally by appointment by a white man. And the people were not quite satisfied with this because not that Mr. Harry is not all right, but the people alwaysfelt that they should have had the choice to choose their own people. we had a couple of candidates running that year: Revere,nd J/4,tev /_,o!J)r~d Doctor Martin L. Brooks and some of the I boys in the legislature promised that if we didn't elect the man they would appoint one of those boys. But instead, they l6v didn't appoint~ but one of the two who were running; they +wo u/lttr.s r 1'1?Ullv I appointed t,"e--.Qs. T,bay enly app~a one of them, Mr. Har~T.J' I: So there has been some dissatisfaction ever since because of this s. I: do you think? ;(e_s, I think so, yes, Now, tha,t's, I ~ntioned you see, politically, t I'> that's pretty muc{b!en our accomplishment. We have Indian people here are the campaignest people I have ever seen in my life. But up they have always had the oddstagainst them; people use them and they do the work and then when the goodies they don't seem to be able to get very far. And then of course, ..,t';J1if4tt-$_1 whowe ~-:. ti.(/. f Lei{~, /JlA(NQJI don't thin1,\we mentioned the late Natha HM1.or

PAGE 11

S: I: S: I: S: I; S: I: S: 11 Lace, 6 /l;,.y111r Yes, I'm glad you mentioned the late N@tn&t -I", //,1; '.Q ,j,_15 .ft,AI c, f I lt:t f.a.ther i:-8 Judge Brooke ine hiz,t:ory c Maxton.and:/-'1..v~A / I /'Cl rau, l,.All'f" {,Ql,4ff1 ' .u.L-.:t::tl~-~~---~~.!L--. However, when the recorders court was no longer, when that positibn by the corporate form had been abolished and _;;[~',..~J:..~c_f../f;jt 0 { try for the position 1 110 -:fl "'Iv of judge running on more than~ee ny,{at least two and maybe it was three. He was defeated. And he was a Lumbee Indian too? Yes, ll;.1J~/1il./)4/IT was a Lumbee Indian and a mightly fine 1 5&h,v 6'cl( father, father of Helen Cherak who today is director of Indian Education in Washington, D.C. And I might add, Helen ~{<~.Gf!~/4 perhaps the most knowledgeable girl; _.J:_'.v._~ __ .1J:P_qg.,_4_4':round Washington many meetings there; in meeting with her some of the Health, Education, and Welfare boys a couple weeks ago. And Sch /tJI'" /1Jr most anyone who has met Helen Gttenak is the most knowleggeable girl on the subject of Indian education t~ anyone in this country. cl.iwt3df Helen k. This is S-h-i-e~r-b-e-c-k? S-c-h S-c-h-i-e-r-b-e-c-k. Helen Schierbeck. Helen Maynor Schierbeck. Of course, that name Maynor is M-a-y-n-o-r.

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l'L ,Lumbee people really move around and really do a good job, if they have the opportunity. I: And then you are very optimistic about the future of our people? S: Yes. I: How about economic wise? A1ewe showing any gains? 12 S: I thirkwe are showing gains economically. We have never produced a millionaire up until this time but perhaps we will someday be $ ~,au,I 1"6~:./: c,J able to do this. We have organized the Lumbee Bank and had tdr ..//,tJ . ;1.1,., ..L Iii(., -oi~~=Lt~-qz_-Lumbee Bank. And I served on the Board of Directors. ~ht ,sa,,t,i'M 0/V ~esideM: lffl,l> the(;' Board of Directors of the Lumbee Bank. And on the Board of the tumbee Bank Police too-----------the organization of the Lumbee Bank. I: Well, since the Irumbee Bank began operation that was several months ago? S: Yes. I: It has been very successful. S: The Lumbee Bank opened December~ 1971. So we have been in operation . ,m, ,ret,k t,.)~ /,a()~ 1t,IA I would say about eight months. And OJ.C.T-..a~-~------been operatY out of a trailer. SJ.R.ee __ C1$9JJ-/Qs ___ a.J __ Gi 7:.-_ a __ "' -fteJo , ;-e. .• .1, . r wi1t1 fd" I c .. ' f/(d something like $2,200,00~ We_eame to -----------and when our (I /\ .. ,'-I 1is u~tJQ,,,, vr~.,. w / I new bank is complete~the/\constructio/, I think thisAieally l flk" f:.I, :,;J1s ,. c;~%es , ----u------. The bank was capitalized at_,,67,000 ; thats ..J l,e CO Ml ,es ('Alt} $10 per share. 1 , That's~70 OQO. ,J.An.4 '~ or eRecting to be U r ,.. J.,.,.,. /j'_,v_;,,!tj,ttt'(f/tJIV -;J\' ( z /, /4 ,r" taJ.J,'fC!Jl''#-"• l.'i:. (r,7: .... ;, ,,.,..,1,;, ~-,.,ff1;., r• .,.".{,.,.\,,. /t j''~n o~v , . lt:ltff._.,. •" l Ctr r.: elected c~e'l.'ee M-$}:i!,QQ., ::--tm,i:frce and -------; at least he A . tPw1-/ i-~1..,.•. i S r11111J1'lvf was a Democratic nominee where a Republican ra,,,, against him. ) ll

PAGE 13

S: 13 h d~ ~-v "11,n;tUJ /t?~/ h IV ,,.f!!'~N A) / {J_ /~.11.j /, [_r'_!'"-'i -l>Jf -/&t/qtl dN A'-' tt ls()t We had this tlri:ttg-6,---.::."1,r~ c,,v;( t}/1.Je /e,,,,f/4,,-5(!, 11.'c.ef ~o. I: I have already said the Lumbee Bank was the first Indian bank of America, you being a historian. S: I think tli.s is true. I think this is the first Indian bank in the United Statesf that is, Indian controlled and mostly, well Indian owned;when I say this, more than 85% of the stock is owned by Indian people and most of the employees, all of the employees of today, six working in the bank. And all are Indians but one; Indian-cont~olled, Indian-owned and Indian-operated. And we are quite proud. Yes, the bank opened December 22, 1971. It was a historic4' mement for us. We plan/-;_o have a big c~lebration when we get into our new building. Right now, we have tentatively set D b 7 1972 h d h have Q~~ktt/1 W;; ecem er , t e ate we ope to our new v I I: That's. great. S: I might add next to the Lumbee Bank, we are going to have 12,700 foot store, a Stanley Store, which is a chain, not as large as some chains of stores we own; this, I believe was the 29th store; we had {}-9 / inspected then.or operate the~ of Pennebrooke. I; Do you think the bank will have the affect, perhaps, is having the Eifectof making it easier for Lumbee Indians to secure loans and 0 ,r,pd, -/,'oN this sort of thing because of the c-en$-3:..i,,Qati.nn that the Lumbee Bank

PAGE 14

14 is getting the other banks. S; Yes, I can see a difference all right in here. I understand, they haven't done it yet, but I understand that the First Union o# Bank~is already talkim,gabout putting some Lumbees on their Board of Directors. If they do we can say that the Lumbee Bank caused them to do this. And they hired a couple of Lumbee Indians recently to work in their bank. This is what ~{:.(1~'J.[~n will do. I: Well, that is wonderful. How about the school system; are you satisfied with our present school system or others because there S: is always room for improvement. Are you satisfied--? I am not satisfied,as a matter of factYr worked in the school :::, 1/f system,~a public school teacher; I was a principal in Flagler University. I am still not satisfied with the school system. The reason I am not satisfied; I feel that we, as part of lh~ ~ysfvri 11 -t,•.,Robe~son Count~ /(a~e never gotten our/lshare. Another thing that is very unfair too is that we have six administrative units and the city units like Red Springs, Maxton, _fl}_tALfj_!!::! _____ , . /,) n "L5 'fi,,n~,"rv+ Lumberton, St. Pauls, _J.:_tr_~---7 ~d e~h@. These people have their own chartered units and yet they vote in our elections to elect their board of education. And yet we don't vote in theirs t)O lt-11!1 but they vote in ours. I b~fieve this double~real1y is uncono-f cow'S" (ANJfS "'"U"'t, -1-/,,'lf stitutional e&t the cityArmde,;:sideo ~ewe pay a tax to the city and also to the county. But rp me that's not really a valid argument. I; Well, maybe we should mention here that the Robe•son County system as its: known, the student body is made up primarily of Lumbee Indian students.

PAGE 15

I: YQJS1 /\57% of the Robed:son County system is made up of ~u~bee Indian students and the blacks and Lumbees make up 81%. So you see there's not many whites in the Robeulson County system. But the whites are controlli~g it--they hav~ all tqe board members -ffll,\/ flMu s1Jtulnfa,,J (/~,.If at this time but oneA lhey are controlling it and of course, this 'when 15 isn't right. I hope~omeone reads this transcript many, many years from today that the situation will have changed. We are working for Now the change now. We are trying to burst the system open with change. it seems1f are being very successful and this reminds me of part which is being played by the United Methodist Church, which you are a member, I believe. S: Yes, I am a member of the United Methodist Church. As a matter of fact, Lew, I was elected a delegate this year to the Southeast Jurisdiction Conference which met the same week that the Democratic I: Convention met so I couldn't_, in two places at the same time so I sent my alternate to the Southeast Jurisdictio~ 4 6onference. This is one time I took politics ahead cf church work. Perhaps, tl"t1:ts should go hand in hand. Could you tell us a little more specifically the way the United Methodist Church is working to help non-whites in the area? S: Well, yes, I have been responsible to a great degree for bringing _s-a~~ money into the area •. I served on the l.umhee AdvisorvCommittee -rt,e. 'd:di:L ' I of Indian work of~ Methodist Church which put me in a position '' Robt.SotJ to help get what is known as the i !ll;i cr ton County Church and Community Center funded. I was able to bring in $30,000 at one time. And then I was able to bring in several more thousand dollars at a different

PAGE 16

16 +At's ,s time. I don't mean I was, you know, get tts a loan. But I was in a case about where I could have some _ _jjyf/uQfiCG___ Also, I Ca"c".J mentioned among the Indian Carca,;e we were funded for $20,000 for voter registration project in 1971. And we have been funded again :8.olr" $15 , 000 recently. And we rJt:f Jo_-1.!:.d__~:/._~/J.IJ;_tt/.[;,:/ ."/"'-./ A,~/41/v /,u// ../-Ju,/ lhtt.•C}' Of,4.,r' yw.b,.Qtlw~ w:: ~t years from now. We have some more Indian candidates running. I: Well, I am certainly enC.0.4-!f!-.8'-c/ END OF SIDE ONE

PAGE 17

17 SIDE TWO I: Can you recall where you were when we ran out of tape? S: Yes, well, one thing I was going to say Lew, one thing that certain to be encouraging, I mentioned funds that we received from the United Methodist Church. And some of the funds came from the Connnission on Religion and Race: the Lumbee CtletC.&<$ Indian Gersase for the voter registration became the Connnission on Religion and Race for the United Methodist Church. But we had Methodists in the area, even Indian Methodists who opposed this. And this is rather discouraging to see that people would send you money from far away and then somebody lying at home for ii political reasons don't want to stay~ work and don't want to see their house torn down. I am speaking of the Apetondos, not the Tomahawks, who don't like to see such projects working well, -1-J, 4 f ~(; i,:!\ I /' / They would like to kno~we are~~ _...J::a __ IP~-. I: Do you think perhaps rome of this may, not all of it, but maybe some of it is because the lack of understanding or the lack of ,...,, .. "' .. } t, .. _., .. connnunication, proper~ communications, you know, public } .. information; some of our people are still illiterate and that sort of thing? Does this complicate it to some degree, do you think? S: Well, its true, illiteracy, lack of education, and you know, this +h•<:> 0-1 does casue some cr our people to think along~ line~ But some of our people, I suppose, have an education also think along these +-~t:, lines. They know that~ are working to tear their playhouse down. And they don't want it torn down. I: \ell, I think that is true of any community, that problem, don't you? S: Well, yes, you must keep in mind, as the story goes, power is never

PAGE 18

I: S: given, it is always taken. So, people with power they just don't hand out ~,..goodies. They hold onto it. They would rather hold onto it. 18 ~c Some of the power is changing hands and it's changing from WMJ'te to I think, now you mentioned earlier in the tape, the correlation between Indians and blacks and maybe you would like to talk a little more about that and tell us just how this has worked; I know in at least one instance we have been very successful and perhaps in other areas too. S: Well, I think when you are in the minority, I think if you have, as say we have here in Rob~son County, three ethnic groups and you know, they're in the minority. If the two can unite and become the majority, then when they are being denied anything, then the only thing to do is to unite publically in their cause. t/aL/( I; I was thinking in particular of one of our ~d brothers whom we have sent to Raleigh; he has been nominated again. Is this correct? S: Yes. Joey Johnston for the state house; the Indians giving him I: good support. Rev. Joey Johnston, North Carolina legislaturehe was the first black man :tn:-:h:e elected to the North Carolina legislature. h.J.'db Of course our~ brothe:rSfeels the other way and I guess this is S: I will put it this way: if he was not the first, he was one of the first. Do you recall if he were.the first?

PAGE 19

I: I don't know. I believe there might have been some during Reconstruction. 19 S: I didn't mean during Reconstruction. I meant now, you know in this century. I: Certainly in this century. Well, the white politicians in the county, of course, this would be against their interest~ TJ/J coalition, wouldn't it? S: Oh yes, they, the white people of the county, go to the Indians and say "you don't want to fool with the black politics" and go to the blacks, "you don't want to fool with the Indian,s a11d.. politics'.' And naturally they don't want a coalition because this would tear their house down. I: Do you think sometimes some pretty low tricks are resorted to? S: Oh, yes. There have been a few cases where white landlords told their farmers not to go vote or plan for them to work all day, where they couldn't go vote and so forth. tZ~ use ' threats, economic threats--of course, the man can't vote anyway iN if he's never been if, a booth before; he deliberately figures this is something he can't do. He doesn't want to be embarrassed a~d so forth; consequently, a lot of people stay at home and not get around to vote. I: But we are preaching the gospel of the ballot like we preached the gospel of education and they are passed on. S: I think various Indian connnunities are different. For instance, some Indian connnunities where they have only four or five hundred people, they can't hope to do much at the ballot box. So maybe they

PAGE 20

will work on their problems some other way. I think here that the ballot box is the place where we lead the way. 20 I: We were talking about the gains we have made. Now two different S: I: S: I: people have been nominated to tf~tJtS the Robe.son Board of Commissioners. ThisA~ on a staggered basis. Yes, we forgot to mention a while ago that Egf{{t(~ockl~~-was elected this year to the County Board of Conunissioners. My brother Vz_q~ . Herman Dial and Bobby Bane Lockmere that will give us two now out of the seven. And Elmer Lowry,ET.~owry was running, another LumbeE:J, and he should have won in his race without any trouble but as a matter of fact, E.T. Lowry told me that he felt confident he'd wi~ and he didn't feel he would have 7 any . UNfl' way so he was so confident/fe lost. would have had three of the seven. tmuble. Most people felt that If he had won that race, we /,e, The person who is over-confident won't work quite as hard as~ will Ju$f That's right, if you're over-confident youAwon't work as hard. ~UJ.,, I -ea:wsomething that your brother, the conunissioner, said once. I commented to him you know, I said I think you've got it sewed up. He said, "No, I never say something like that tiJ/ the last vote is counted." And he has always worked so very hard, you know. He never assumes anything. And I think this is very fine. S: Church is never out until the last benediction. I; Right. S: The same way in politics. I: How about the understanding of our people. Do you think people are beginning to understand us better? ----------------------------------------------~

PAGE 21

S: Well, I would hope so. I would hope so. eres5 We have been mentioned many times in the~ for one reason or another, especially since 1958 and are you familiar with the study of our schools which was conducted in 1968 by the United States Office of Education? S: Yes. The Havent-Hurst Study--Havent-Hurst University of Chicago sociologyT-I have great respect. I: s: Would you mind going J,..W Dr. Gregory Peck from NC State College./lYdu worked with that program I don't know as much about it as you know perhaps) t..l fut I understand that research reveals that the Lumbee Indians here who were neverwardSof the government, who were never a reservated Indian group were ,~ing much better at the schools than those Indians who were on the reservation. I: Do you think this indicates that some people are given a say in their destiny in this particular instance in their educational destiny? Do you think this is a great encouragement for the Indian people universally? S: I think so. I think so. I: Well, there are so many areas we could get into. Are you getting tired? S: I: +4tt No, go ahead, we will finish this pa:ge. You've been active in so many different areas)and I have looked forward to this interview because of this. Itl'"'is Fr.;ry J.talnable, t:W s iu~,-o~e cf ~. It's a very valuable interview because we know you check out your facts and you are so knowledgeable (J-11!. in things concerning our people. How about, could~ say something

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about our church life? Do you know some people go away and write, they come here and visit very briefly;they go away 111.1/ t)r1 their stories. One anthropologist stated in his book that wue Indian survivors generally including us in this, we a?e not interested in religion. He was very mistaken, was he not? S: Yes, I guess so; here among the Lumbees, we seem to have lots of churches. I: If the churches is any indication, we certainly compare 1-1.,,. t favorably with the two other races, wouldn't you!f87? S: I would say so; that is a number of churches. I: How about the trained ministry? I know we have some well trained ministers among our people. Is there a need for more of this, do you think? S: Yes, I think so. Ag a matter of fact, in the ministries, I might add here, all over the country, we only have, as far as we know, we only have five Indian ministers around the country-five or six with a BD degress in the Methodist Church. I can't speak about other denominations. Here among our people, we have only a couple with B.D. degrees who are here--Re~erand J2u2s Earl Wood, 6!1$61.A.#'~ ....... ,., ~lefiJ -LI~----, --seminary graduate, Reverand Coolidge -~~L~-~!.""o-a-, a graduate of a seminary school in Texas. I; And so you don't think the interest of relegion among Lumbee Indians is diminishing? S: I don't think so. But you will find among the country that they are ./:J~L~!:Jl#f-some to their native religion. some of the Indians around uJ.'!fi_hhfJ of them ~i ia~'to go back

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23 I: IYJAY tq_, Do you think thi~..'8 a sort of a protest? S: Well, I don't think it is a protest so much as just as. -1 l)0y ~~1,, ..s~y ,N3 /flow uWsatisfied with the white man's religion' 1 b4an.~rnea d.o:i:amy h h ld h . . . h -rdo l"' . w y sou t e missionaries ave ust\ rop our own re ~gion and take the religion of the white man? Therefore, some of them would like to go back to their native religion. I: Some groups never,! am sure,they never did depart really. t f 11of :/e,o /YMHf~ They still have their native religio;\A Christianity has S: I: really affected the Indian world. I remember, if I am correct, -IA•-/one of our own ministers, Reverand Claudey Dial, wasn't the Seminoles of Florida the last ones to be reached with the gospel? The last group of American Indians? I don't know_about whetqer who Reverand Claudey Dia3;ras a cousin of yours by the way. down they were the last or not but I do know first cousin of mine. He was a first f()m,v• i He went down on the 'I-ammany Trail, on Highway 41. I have been there. And he built a little church there. M ,'UOS(A ',#.. The church is in the area of the llicastoQgy; but most people who /JJ, cro,; u /re.e.. attend the church are the Seminoles. The MiQastochy do not do not go to much church. But thekhurch has had some success. About how long has that church been going, do you think? -1-vv S: He told me this year, let's see that church has been going about li years so it was somewhere in the early 60's when Rev. Claudy Dial began his work among the Seminole Indians on the~';' Trail. -ft.,,(y_ /f~t/,rfy The church is located about, oh, fl, or Cf) mil~s out from, about half "1am,am i way between Naples and Miami from the Tumma1ty Trail, on the left

PAGE 24

hand side going from Naples to Miami. I: Do you think the Lumbee Indians generally S: Right in the swamp right next to the highway. generally I: Do you think the Lumbee Indiansf'would like to spread Christianity further, that they are interested in, you know, reaching other groups? S: I guess some of them would. I suppose somewhat tJaat the missionqrj /'111/,/c/ would. In that respect, I suppose they are more like the white I: S: I: man. Of course, what I would like to see them do is put more of ,,.; it~ practice right here at home. Into the religion? 11'0~ Yes, I'd like for them to be concerned more~their fellow man. I--J:1./lJ.J.. __ ~~..c&-----an article I did for the New World Outlook, May, 1972; The New World Outlook is a publication done by the Presbyterian or Methodist Church from 475 Riverside Drive, New York City. The title of the article is "A Lumbee Indian Still the Lost Colony" I(. by Adolf/t Dial. Speaking of churches, I note here in this that Maybe you can give us some excerpts from that,~J? S: Well, all right, I thought I would. I see one thd.ng here. "The burden "4nof education deprivation in RobellJson falls equally among the races. The county system unit, '7.6% Lumbee, f2.6%~lack, and 19.8% white. Only 14.2% of the county high school graduates go onto college.-a four year college; 43.3% go directly into employment. Despite the fact that the county school system students are 80% black and Lumbees, the county board of education consists of only one black, only one Lumbee, and five whites. 11 I might add we elected Miss Eileen Holmes

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25 this year. She hasn't taken office yet; she will take office in December so that will be one more We. _/!li~f._i[,,j~p..} _ _1u_jj}_J,t,.,, it111-=:::::__~!!_{_./Il..1_~!:::u_t.f/ ~'(ie~ lmes I: Of course, you are assuming that nomination is tantamount to election, in this county. S: Yes, pretty much so democratic. However, there are some in I; S: thoseplaces Republican looks like there will be some. ~// Ct1A~,•~ 1 t I agree *ith you. "The office controlled by the white and lack of opportunity for blacks and Lumbees in high administration may be one of the reasons lr-J for the county system for performance~ sending students on to college. In civic education and voter registration the Connnission on Religion and Race of the United Methodist Church donated $20,000 (fiU5e,J to the Lumbee Indian ~es. Viewing more statistics by the Robeit;son County Church and Connnunity C111,1cas that the Lumbee Indian Genierenee was C _,f, . J enter, 1 t is eas, ill! recognize({ aQt':[~yot,'31tt:1 The statistics l"tVl,a/ /Aof only 31,400 people were registered to vote in Robertson County on June I: S: 9, 1970. Over 40,000 were over 21 years of age; of the 31,400 registered, 16,207 were white; 16,193 black and Lumbee. So black and Lumbee to gether comprised 61% of the population. There were 30,189 registered Democratics; 946 Republicans and 265 others. I might say that the voter registration we had this year would to that list. But we are in better shape written. OfA' add close to 4,000 Lumbees (t -f #,a, f ,,,,.,c, than WQQR this article was /\ Do you think/\people are beginning to see the light? I think so. I think they are beginning to see the light.

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26 I: Yrumentioned the Community Church, the Robeetson County. S: Church Community Center. I: Excuse me, I didn't remember it correctly. I: You published a very, very important folder of statistics. S: I: Did you not? This little folder had some very startling statistics relating to Robef8son County. Andfr.i~ee races and their income, their annual income. Do you remember what the annual income was--I believe the year you quoted. I can't remember, I can't recall the income but it was mightly c/' low. First it was high~than I would say the annual income of most of the reservations. BIA+:gjf you compared either the black income, -annua).. income wlili: the Indian income with the white family income in the same countyi..ff'trut'abfy ~eg:''/reat difference. S: Yes, that's true. I: We've often, maybe not often, fo of the few Indian groups~ but we have been spoken of as one e, middle producel\solid~ class. And, about how larg:do you think this middle class is among our people? S: Well, we have a lot of teachers. I suppose we could say we have a middle class. I don't know and I could't say what percent of our people would fall into theLiddle class. f~t, i .,f example of expl0itation is/lthat we have never But I think a good s,~;:1!.. produced it millionaire. And another example is that where we have 57% of the student body in the county system of schools,we don't have anybody there in a top position. I: Do you think this is due to other conditions besides the ability, native ability and preparation.7 S: You mean the Indian being behind, or what?

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~-------------------------------------------------------I: Yes, and the fact that we don't have many Indians in the Robe-son Oeunty system. We don't have an Indian superintendent which I think we both agree we should have. S: I find, you know Lew, around the country on certain reservations that they are short of leadership. There is one thing about it, the Lumbees have lots of leadership and its not lack of leadership h~re the reason we don't have more people in key positions, it's a matter of race. And, as I your goodies, you kl.ow, you said earlier, you just e, ;i /:'t,;ic., Jo kin)o51demand them or don't give away take them() Well, now, when the Robertson County Indian School System was established in 1885, it was established as a separate unit, wasn't it? S: The legislation of 1885, which provided for separate schools, yes. And if we dich't use the money in two years, it was to revert back to the states. And of course that only was for salaries, it was not for buildings. I: And this law stated that Indians would have teachers of their own choice and principals, and so forth in the 1885 law? S: Yes, they would have Indians here basically that's what it was inI: tenit~ Andjthe law which established what is now p;".,l,brol.-:ta••Ugiversity was the law of 1887 two years later, wasn't it? S: Yes, yes. The law of 1885 made the provision for it and then the school was established in/ff,7. You see the law in 1885 said, in other words, we give you a few years to have a school. Then in/1/87 -ff,l.i they established 1 school. I: Right. Well,lle have still come a long way though, don't you think?

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I: Especially since 1835 when schools there were at that the schools? we were expelled from such -rJw~e of tml' time. A,rg thEij\,people who 28 white attended S: Yes, yes. The interesting thing about the history of the school~I: S: qf lttt$ I one, that never did make much sense to me in a wayi1looking at it today it didn't make much sense. The schools of Robedtson County were established were made for the people of Robel'f.son. And for years we kept out the people from adjoining counties and even the Navalo couldn't come to our schools at one time. The school in----.--~-~-::_::_~-~-:::-:==::=:::_:=!)'!1::':'.:_::::-.::.-... __ was rather absurb. Of course, the idea that the Indian /tf people had~~minddl'J was that they wouldn't want their race of people to be mixed anymore than what it was Although we have always been regarded as a mixed people, right? Yeo.. P,,J Swl'1f\U> ~I know the .W-------~-i----Baptist Association records the first minutes they ever kept; I read those. didn't keep minutes in 1880 but in 1881 they did You know they s (ftj(/ keel) minutes. The minutes read, "~(}_,_,,_J __ Swamp Baptist Assocation of a mixed race." Of course, then in ~7, I mean in '85 we were designated as .&..oid~~: __ ._ ___ I: That's interesting. What do you think people outside the Lumbee River Connnunity who are interested in helping us and I am sure u~ A~l,,k.. f~of/: we have many friends and I think this is something we have needed in the past. I think we have more friends now than ever. What do you think they could do to help the situation~-the overall situation as it exists today?

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S: I don't know. Funded programs and so forth would help. All of I: S: this, I think would be beneficial to our people. qN As of yet, we have never hadJtndian lawyer to practice law in Robertson County. However, Horaae Lockbird who has just passed the bar in the last ,J-wa 1~,~e weeks is going to set up office in Lumberton. So he will be the first Indian lawyer to practice law in Robe-sonl9caaNJy, I asked Commission IL.le about the reason that lawyers we do have don't practice in the county-or in the state. He said they were never able to pass the bar exam,and those who did study law had to practice where they could practice and they could pass in the other states but for some reason they couln't pass the bar exam here. I think it is a little different now, you see. man has opened up the way and it is mighty easy now to yell +O discrimination. So I think this isl\the advantage of the Indian;-loo, I: We desparately need legal talent, don't we? S: Yes, we do. There's a demand for legal talent. I: I know in the case of the school case, which is still pending; it has been pending since 1970, I began to doubt that it will ever be tried, but in this instance, legal talent comes for about $30,000 per hour and this is enormous it seems to me. It seems S: to me we need lawyers to be hired by the group, wouldn't you think that would be a good idea? tu& Well, we need lawyers practicing/\in the area, you know, Indian people need to use. They need to be successful lawyers. They need their own lawyers.

PAGE 30

30 I: frN,w l (JI;,, w ve. va.Fv c/4ft~ " _; tt t:
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S: I: What can we do to rule and win some of the students and faculty to support things like the project at this time? S: Well, the town has to have more services. Most of them go down to Lumberton to the A & P and do grocery shopping and so forth. We need a few good chain stores. I: It seems they come here and you know, get their education and go back to Lumberton, the county seat, and they don't spend any money, to speak of, in Pe~bro~ S: That's true. I: And I have observed the same thing, I believe in connection with the Lumbee recreation facilities. What could you tell us about This is such a worthy project. S: Well, the Lumbee Recreation Center which developed a few years ago, within the last decade. I was one of the charter members. This money, the United States Government granted a loan. The loan was made, I think, what money was borrowed aiN(i~ _z~.ff, __ f_tt_"t_~rf'/j administration. I understand from the North Carolina Teachers' Assocation. Of course, the government, the F.H.A. had to guarantee /11/f > the loan. So this big project was constructed. 800 acre ]81ae, so to speak; 18 hole golf course; swimming pool; softball court with lights; place for fishing. So the Lumbee Recreation Center could be .,, , -e,,,t-ll 1r-.r11va. a real number one thing; however, right now its suffering from financial I: And this debt has to be paid off, doesn't it? S: Oh, I don't know whether it has to be paid. Somebody, the government can write it off. Someone said that's what ought to be done. They

PAGE 32

really owe it to the community. That's all--this land is our land. This land at one time all belonged to the Indians. So why not give the Indians a little of it back? I: It would certainly be a wonderful thing if we could find channels to get this debt paid off and open it up to, you know, to those who, well fl!} some of our poor as well as the wealthy. The way it is set up now is by membership, isn't it? I mean you pay so much S: I: S: a year and not everyone can afford it. $180 per year now. Initial membership is -for-$360 charter members. " It's showing some progress. t,yQ., /l(UU, .:f'o jt;.":>:'' Yes,ASta poor peop1.e that can't get enough of the $180 membership to make a do of it .. I: Well, I certainly hope something can be done along these lines some way of helping--it is such a worthy project. I have heard the complaint that nobody else other than the Indians use it uh,/,._ at all, hardly use it at all. I imagine 1,/htde membership would be welcome too, would it not as membership? S: Oh yes, welcome any membership. I: That's one more problem we can think about and gain about, isrltit? S: That's right. It will work out better some day. I: We have seen a lot of, well maybe not many dreams realized in your lifetime and mine, but we have certainly seen some of these, some of our dreams realized. Some of the dreams I have shared and you shared and other people. S: Oh yes. Things have changed a lot in the last few years, And although._ I can go back to 1958, and you know that if four years after 1954 when Brown revision, the famous Brown revision, the Supreme Court made. 'Ft,,,.,.,ol>Jf I was out in Pm:'emut.tM, North Carolina. I was down there with some C ------------------------------------------------------'

PAGE 33

33 other friends and my wife and two white students were over at the University. I think they were the first~te students that were A enrolled there; that was about all the white students we had there and two or three other people. We were going to attend a square dance; I was in line ready to get tickets for the grou~and I noticed one of the town cops he kept eying me; he finally walked ,n . tJ _,.,,, (( . )) over. He said, "Are you from P~bro~?" I sai~ x_es. He ,1 -==said, "Are you Indian?" I said~es. He said, "Well, you can't J go in." This is very interesting. It shows how racism went. It was all right mtil I told him who I was and where I was frorrj-f/,o...tv prejudice began to show. I: I think its ironic, don't you, that although we have had prejudiced factors against us all these years, we are still willing and we encourage actually integration at PSU)and I think nobody has com plained about that to this day. I think this is something that everybody has agreed on. S: Almost everybody. I: Almost everybody. The only tlung, they complain once in a while now, because naturally they are strictly in the minority now of course S: I: A Qur .,r (1 •. ~(a hfays will be simply because there are more of other races. And we bring in people from all over the state, don't we? Many pa~ts of the United States. ll Yes, yes. In thefiversity today, we have about 10% Indian and a little more than 200 I would say. Xndian students, and less than ~ft,._, , c.;+ q '( f;, 50 black, ~/\white. So we could say the University has changed 5 'NCCJ Wtd considerably-~ an all Indian school. _/L<., Do you think , working intimately with the )'niversity ,