Interview with Consuela Dolbeare July 25 1974

Material Information

Interview with Consuela Dolbeare July 25 1974
Dolbeare, Consuela ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:


Subjects / Keywords:
WRUF ( Radio station : Gainesville, Fla.)
Ted Burrow Tapes
Radio stations -- Florida
WRUF Collection (Ted Burrow’s Tapes) Oral History Collection ( local )


This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

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Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'WRUF' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
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WTUF 9A. Side One
bd Page 1

B: I thought I might just sample some of your memories about, uh,

the, uh, perhaps the uh,time that you first came to Gainesville.

D: All I can tell you is the time. My husband came in September and

I came in, I closed the Orip ied in Washington, came down here in

October of 1929.

B: Twenty-nine.

D: Yes.

B: Now there seems to be a little conflict there. I guess the record

at the station may be off a little bit. There is a card file and

it mentioned that, uh, Major Powell was there from 1930 through I

believe October of 1956. But it may be that the person who has

charge of that card file made the wrong entry.

D: I: can't imagine because we definitely came here, Dr. Tigert brought

us down, and uh, it was '29. And uh...

B: Had the Major known Dr. Tigert before that?

D: Oh yes, yes. Uh, he was commissioner of education, you know, in


B: That's right.

D: And then he knew him through the American Legion, uh, Garland was

at the national headquarters...

B: Right.

D: ...for quite a while. And uh, through uh, I think through the

American Legion became friends, and very close friends, all through

their lives. And the same with me with Mrs. Tigert.

WRUF 9A Side One
hd Page 2

B: That's right.

D: She's just a little bit older than I am, but we were very, very

close friends.

B: And does she still live in Gainesville, by the way?

D: No, she lives in, uh, in Miami. And she's been living alone in an

apartment, but she isn't very well now, so she's moving in with her


B: Oh.

D: Jane, Jane.

B: I'm sorry to hear that she's not well.

D: Well, she's in her eighties, you know. And uh, so uh, she has arthritis

very bad.

B: Oh I see.

D: And uh, it's crippled her quite a bit. I went down last May a year.,Ao

i'5p4 My,,/ a year ago, and I got sick and had to come home. I went

down especially to see her, and I had the flu and didn't know it, and...

B: It kind of sneaks up on you doesn't it?

D: Oh, it was terrific, and I hate that drive down there anyway.

B:: st's a long drive, oh it's...

D: And uh, it was so disappointing because she can't come up to see me,

so the only way I can get to see her is go down there, of course we

talk on the phone, but that's not the same at all. And was too

sick to enjoy her. So I: stayed in bed one day, and I said I'm-yet

gonna make because I didn't want to fly home and leave my car down -

iRUF 9A Side One
bd Page 3

there, cause then I would get up here and wouldn't have a car.

B: Right, sure you need transportation.

D: So, uh, I said I'm gonna make it, and if I can't make it, I'll stop

on the way, but I, I made it. Oh, I: was so glad to be home I could

hardly stand it.

E: I don't envy you that drive. My parents live down in Ft. Pierce and

that's where I went to high school. Of course, you've passed there

if you were on the turnpike.

D: Tes.

B: Even that, it's a almost, well it's about a four hour, four and a half

hour drive just to get there.

D: Well this is uh, uh huh, well it's much further, of course.

E: How did, uh, Dr. Tigert induce you and your husband to come to


D: Well it wasn't me. He, uh, Griffith I: think was the first man at

the radio station, was it Griffith or Griffin?

B: Um, that name rings a bell, uh,...

D: Well he was before my husband, and I think the station had been opened

a year before, 1928. Hadn't it? That's what I remember.

B: Right, yes, that's right.

D: But I: can't conceive, what month did they have Mr. Powell down as

coming in '3G? Because that's definitely wrong.

B: nJh, it didn't say a month. It said 1930 through October 31st of 1956.

That's what suprised-me, they didn't put down a month.

D: I: thought '57. Now I maybe...

WRUF 9A Side One
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B: See that's why I have to check things, you know.

D: IT thought, now I could Be wrong, but seems to me...

B: ell, if necessary I could probably dig back through the persone=U

records at the university. But uh...

D: Well, it was /ivlc 7 that was fi ... I thought, let me see,

no, it was '56. I believe, when did Ke\ Small come?

B: Well, I think it must have been '56.

D: Then it was '56.

B: Of course, I'll be talking to him, too. I see him every week or so.

D: Well, if he came in '56, then Mr. Powell resigned or retired or what-

ever you call it in '56. I didn't realize that he had, of course he

wasn't well at all, but he lived until '59, August of '59.

B: Let me go back a little bit to the time before you came to Florida.

Uh, you mentioned that Ic IjAS AtitC with the American Legion. And

in connection with that. I saw a newspaper article written by Jim

Camp back in 1953 that indicated that Major Powell was very much

involved with originating the national flag code.

D: Oh yes he was.

B: What do you recall about, was that uh...

D: I don't remember anything about that at all.

B: I see.

D: Except that he did it, and it, uh, he was always very interested in the

flag and uh, there's a monument up in, uh, I have it back here in the
C&luA dot n'
file, Ir-can never find it, I think I got rid of it. A monument with his

WRUF 9A Side One
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name on it in either Rhode Island or New Jersey. Of course I've never

gotten up there to see it. Now this all came out after he had passed

away, which is too bad. Ke probably would have liked that.

B; Right.

D: And uh, they wrote to me after he had gone, for what I don't, I guess

to notify me that, uh, there was some monument, I mean some, you know,

like they have those little memorial things, I'mAsure that's what it

was. Cause I believe they sent me a photograph of it.

B: Oh, well that was nice of them.
AtC4 so-
D:.-Uh, but I tell ya, I'm old, I'm seventy-four, I can't remember back

that far.

B: Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about that. Uh, I, I also understand,

and you know, uh, the Major is practically legendary in this area,

as you may have gotten the impression over the years.

D: Oh, yes, uh huh.

B: As a matter of fact, here's another thing I'd like to check out. I've

even heard stories to the effect that he was instrumental in promoting

little league baseball for boys. Do you recall anything like that?

D: Yes, I believe he did, I believe he did. But I, I...

B: I can also check that from various sources, hut...

D: Well, you could never check it through me, because...

B: Well as long as you can varify that he was involved, I can get the, uh,...

D: I, think he was. I think he was. 5eeois 46 iMe hke o --

B: details. Okay, well uh, see you've been a help to me already simply by

WRUF 9A Side One
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varifying some of these things that,. uh, they come to me as rumors

and I try to chase them down.

D: Uh. huh. Well now you see, I had completely forgotten about that,

same as the, the uh,,plaque with his name on it up in the states,

Ir had forgotten that. I don't know what made me think of it, oh

Because you brought up the flag.

B: Right, see all it takes is a little prompting.

D: Um hum.

B: What was your general impression when you first arrived in Gainesville?

Had you ever been in the South, what did you think of when you first


D: Well, I first arrived in, uh,Ayou want my real first impression?

B: Yes, uh huih, even if it was bad.

D: Well, it was bad.. Of course it was my fault. Uh, I left Washington,

and uh, I felt like I was going to the end of the earth. I'd been up

to New York and all around up there.

B: Um hum, you were a city girl, right? Had you been...

D: No, I was from a small town, Hagerstown.

B: In Maryland?

D: Yes, and uh, but I went to school in Baltimore, Washington and then

Garland and I lived four years in Washington. And uh, anyway that was

so much further from home than I, although we did live that year, we

lived a year in Indiannap olis, but somehow I didn't feel that, like

I did when I started to Florida. And uh, I was so, I had no mother, and

WRUF 9A Side One
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I: just felt like I would never see my daddy again. AndAl cried

from Washington to Jacksonville. And Garland and Edith met me at

the train, and she looked perfectly awful, 6; cojcrr i; .' .

And I said oh, if Florida has done this to you let's go back home. 'P J

So we had dinner and the train got inca different time thay it was.--

just before dinner. We had dinner at the orl VJ,,jHotel. I remember

all this very well. And uh, then we drove on home. And of course te ,' f

dark, and I'etiugt, you probably don't even remember the railroad

tracks on, uh, what is it now, Main Street do you?

B.: Um, no, well actually I first came to Gainesville around 1964, so uh...

D: Oh well, you wouldn't. So when I saw those, I said oh, then they

have a trolly car don't they, in those days you had trolley cars,

and they said no, uh, Well, of course, I realized then that the

town was very very small. And uh, but uh, I hadn't been here but

just a little while. And I just loved it, I loved the climate, and I

loved the outdoors, and I played golf, I played quite a lot. And I

just loved living here, and I still do. I didn't even go back home

after I lost Garland. So to me, I just... and this center, this section

I especially like. I don't like further south.

B: Right, yes, this is a very nice part of town.

D: Well I don't mean that so I mean this section of the state of


B: Oh, I: see what you mean. Yes, down southward gets -eme flat...

D: Yes, and it's hot and monotonous. And of course in the old days, this

WRUF 9A Side One
bd Page 8

was a nice little town.

B: Right.

D: I don't think. Gainesville is as nice now as it used to be. 'f -

B: Maybe it has grown a bit too large.
d; -(n '4
D: Oh, my goodness has it ever more grown. And uh, we even have taxes,

we had nothing in those days. And you'd go down town, you knew every-


-S Right.

D: I: think there was something like nine or ten thousand people, that's


B: And at the time you moved here, this part of town right here was nothing

but woods.

P: Oh yes, oh yes, it wasn't even developed then.. Yes, I think it had

been laid out, yes, in lots. You know they had the boom in '29.

B: Right, uh huh.

D: So this was laid out I think around...

B: I suppose at the time they were extending University Avenue or Newberry

Road I guess as they called it out this way.

D: Yes, cause this,/this had always been Newberry Road, and of course they

didn't have University Avenue kl\t4-ra4fkC Wtoi a5 you see.

B: Right.

D: And uh, but oh, it's so changed.

B: What did you think of the4cultural life here at the time. Did you feel

it was kind of provincial compared with. Washington?

WRUF 9A Side One
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D: Well, yes, of course. And uh, but that, that didn't worry me
because I am, uh, Itm1 what's the word I want... I was never a

student and Ivhad never met too many college professors. I wouldn't

go to college. My father wanted me to but I wouldn't go. He never

made me do what I didn't want to do. I went, of course in those

days you went to finishing school, you didn't go to college. So

they were sort of a different type person than I had ever met before.

And uh, I am not a joiner so, uh, I'm just sort of truLf/ I


B: Well, don't worry about that, I'm not by nature a joiner either. I...

D: Im not either, and uh, I enjoy people, but I like to pick my own

friends, and QLoveto be with people I like. I don't like to go to

meetings and be with a whole group and things. Aid, L- --

B: It seems that that cuts down your free time to do what you want to

do with it...

D: Yes, yeah.

B: ...if you're chasing off to meetings all the time.

D: Well I'm just definitely not a club woman. Never have been, never

was. I did belong to the garden/ club, because I enjoy gardening,

at my other home, and I got a lot out of it. Now that I enjoyed.

B: Um hum. The reason I asked about the cultural activities was because

I understand that there was an effort to put things like orchestras

WRUF 9A Side One
bd Page 10

and choirs and things on the radio in those days.

D: Well, "dni!-t--kn6w.

B: Uh, as often as possible.

D: See, I don't know, I don't know one single thing about this radio


B: Do you recall seeing it on campus, I mean, in relation to the other

buildings. I understand that the station used to look as if it was

way off in the middle of a cow pasture.

D: Yes, it did. Well, you know what it was? It was the old, at least

when I was on the campus in 1960, uh, I worked at the university

for, uh, at the university library, and uh, I guess my job, one step

above the janitor, but I, it was good therapy for me because I had

just lost my husband and I couldn't just sit around and play cards,

I couldn't do it. And somebody thought it'd be a good idea so I

tried and got it. But in, in those days it was where, in '60s, it

was where the police station was. Is it still, is the police station

still on stadium road?

B: Yes, that's right.

D: Well, then that's used to be old WRUF.

B: Right. I have seen some very old pictures of it, and it didn't look

like there was much around.

D: There's nothing around.

B: There wasn't A r-- around.

D: Nothing, it was out there by itself, it was all by itself. Nothing

was there.

WRUF 9A Side One
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B: Was there any sort of a road that went out there?

D: Well, yes, there was a road, uh, I can't remember whether there

was a road out to 13th Street or notI maybe there was, I guess there


B: It must have, it must have seemed, uh, way off in the middle of


D: Well, well it did. But of course... and then of course when he

first got here, they sat on boxes, he and the other, whoever was

with him at the time, I don't even remember who helped him because

he stayed there from eleven, at news in the morning till eleven at

night. And didn't leave, I would etifc"-e, he must have left for

dinner, but I know I'd take lunch out to him. And uh, the station

had, just had nothing, nothing! Except microphones.

B: Right, I suppose, uh, microphones and room. (Chuckle).

D: Yeah, yeah.

B: That was about it. Do you recall any of the people who may have

worked there. Well, Red Barber, for example, have, have you stayed

in touch with them over the years?

D: Oh yes, oh yes. Well, not too much. He was very appreciative, or

is, for what Garland did for him. And uh, they kept in touch, of

course, all through the years. And we'd go up to New York and always
A),c(, Lx1k
see them./When Garland, Mr. Powell was so ill there at the end, those

two years, Red every so often would send flowers and cards. He was

just wonderful really. And uh, when he's been here once or twice

1.f-r 14:%, Vv' 4 N rants a OC,u.' QrCiecra & kri') I was married
+Ckke. S IM (1t14n
-fUd I .ki

WRUF 9A Side One
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the second time. And then just last, uh, April or March, I'm not

sure which it was, when they had that, uh, Red Barber award dinner,

he asked that I be invited. And I couldn't go, I was sorry, but my

niece and nephew were here that weekend and they didn't leave till

late in the afternoon, and of course I only see them once a year.
KVat, 4 t.-( -
So I had told-kim what the situation is, was that I'd go if I could.

But I thought it was very kind and sweet of Red to want me to be


B: Right. I recalled that you had been invited. We were sorry that we

didn't see you there.

D: Yeah, yeah. Well, I couldn't, I couldn't come. So when I realized,

when they came, they only, the got in Saturday morning, they were only

here one night, two nights, Saturday morning and Saturday night and

Sunday night. And uh, I didn't know until Sunday just when they were

leaving because you don't ask them when, I knew they weren't gonna


B: Right.

D: ...I knew they had to leave Monday cause they, he was on business

and they were going down for a meeting in Boca Raton, and uh, as

soon as I found out that they weren't leaving until about five o'clock.

They were going to drive down to Orlando to catch a plane on down.

So then I called Ken and told him to tell Red. And then I wrote of

course to him afterwards to explain. And I had a letter right back

saying that K, fincl -01 W1; he understood but he was sorry.

WRUF 9A Side One
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B: I seemed to have heard that, uh, several of the former student

announcers tried to keep in touch. lI seems that, uh, there was some

mention of your husband trying to help them get jobs, if they needed Y.

D: Oh yes.

B: Or help them in other ways.

D: He was very interested in them, very interested them. George Walsh

was one, of course there was Oh, I can't even

think, what's the name...

B: Well I haven't met anyone yet who wasn't fond of your husband, so I

figure he must have been of some help, uh...

D: No, he must have been... well, he had a very likeable personality,

lots of personality and charm.

B: I imagine he, he was willing to listen to there problems and things

like that.

D: Yes, and nothing was ever too much trouble for him. If he could

do anything for anybody, he always did. Very thoughtful and kind


B: That's the impression I got. Do you recall that, uh, he used to

invite any of the student announcers to your home?

D: No,Avery little of that.

B: Was there uh, I was wondering...

D: AI had no connection with that, that at all. That was just separated

from that.

B: Right, because some people do operate that way. You know, keep business

WRUF 9A Side One
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separate from social life.

D: I know some people do that. But, yeah, well, he did, and I, I did,

I more less preferred it. And uh I always felt I was so very much

older than they were, you know. But still that didn't make, doesn't

make a lot of difference for some people. But no, we weren't close

to them at all. At least I wasn't, he was.

B: And yet he did, make that effort.44k-ilp -fCAi,

D: Oh, yes, oh yes.

B: You know, I because very interested in this aspect of your husband's

career he seemed to, uh, have led such a diverse life. He was a

lawyer at one time...

D: Yes, uh huh.

B: ...and of course he served in the military. And uh, what, what do

you suppose, uh, made him turn eventually to broadcasting? Was

ias there....

D: Well he was interested and then John wanted him to, and he'd had
i0)1"'t it"
I guess some experience somewhere, where it was I don't know.

B: I, I was just curious about what makes a person do that sort of thing.

D: He was older than I, he was older than I was, and uh, uh, I don't


B: How old would he be today if he were alive?

D: He was seven years older than I am, so he would be, uh, he would be

eighty-one or eighty-two in August. I'm not sure whether he was

seven or a little more than seven. My birthday's December, but he

WRUF 9A Side One
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was seven years, and seven years difference. So he'd be either

eighty-one or eighty-two on August the 8th.

B: Do you recall that he had to travel a great deal with his work?

D: Qh yes, he had to go to New York quite a lot.

B: I suppose mostly to line up advertising for the station.

D: Well, I don't know iM., .v- You see when they first went on

they were, when he first came down, at first they didn't have an

affiliation with Wfltt u^ It wasn't that big a station.

And I mean the network, and of course he got that. And uh, somehow

I always got the impression later on that it wasn't very popular,

I don't know. He got it anyway.

B: How did you feel about his having to travel so much?

D: Oh I didn't mind. I just, well, whenever he'd go to New York, I'd

go once a year with him see.

B: I was wondering if you ever went with him on any of his travels.

D: Yes, and uh, uh,Athe other, only other thing then were broadcasters

meetings, you know, and he'd always take me on that.

B: Um hum, right.

D: Of course I got to knoy of course,naturally through that a lot of

people. And a lot of newspaper people.

B: I was searching through the university archives not long ago and I

ran into some correspondence between yourhusband and Dr. Tigert indi-

cating that, uh, back around 1943 or '44, there was a period of about

a month, I guess, when he was pp north consistently without ever coming

WRUF 9A Side One
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home, lining up the mutual network affiliation.

D: Um hum, LvhJ lu.

B: Back and forth between New York and Chicago and then to Washington

and back to New York, and so forth. That's why I wanted .to aske you

about the travelling.

D: Yes. Well I never went anywhere with him except when he'd go to

New York, and then only once a year, cause we couldn't afford it,

you see. Of course his way was paid, but mine wasn't.

B: Right. In that correspondence I got the impression that sometimes

the, uh, paperwork moved rather slowly and that he sometimes had

to use his own money and wait for the university to reimberse him


D: I don't remember that.

B: Sometimes. That, that may have, he made a reference to that, I think

in a note to Dr. Tigert.

D: Yeah, I don't know anything about that.

B: And uh, that may have been something that he didn't, you know, feel

worth mentioning.

D: Um hum. I can't remember, seems to me he would have told me. Maybe

he did, I don't know.

B: Well, it may have been that he was reimbursed, you know, right away

as soon as he came back.

D: Of course, the salaries then were, you.know, so awfully low, terribly

low. Even for those times.

WRUF 9A Side One
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B: ACan you give me an idea of what the pay scale at the time he

came down here?

D: Came down here? I wouldn't know. But when he retired I think it

was something like $6,000 a year, that's all.

B: Um hum, right.

D: But I wouldn't have the faintest idea what he got when he first

came here.

B: And uh, that kind of shows how fast things are moving because that

really wasn't very long ago, and now, uh, things have just sky rocketed.

D: Well, if I hadn't have had some income of my own we couldn't have

gotten along quite as well as we did. Of course you don't do too

well on, even back then, on $6,000. And I had a horsea-rlc--

B: It certainly wasn't the kind of situation in which one would get

fabulously wealthy.

D: Uh uh, not at all, but he loved it, he loved it.

B: He never indicated the desire then, to go into any other line of


D: No, never.

B: Did he ever give any indication that, uh, he and Dr. Tigert, good

friends though they were would occasionally disagree about how the

station ought to go. do, ,

D: Oh sure! Well sure, you know,/he had any, well you can't always

agree with no matter how good of friends you are, you disagree, and

oh I'm sure, I know they did. I don't know just what about or what

WRUF 9A Side One
bd Page 18

but I know they did. But it never was anything that was too dis-

agreeable or anything.

B: They stayed friends anyway.El f I Cs3

D: Oh yes! Oh yes! They really loved each other very much.

B: Thinking back now, what, what do you suppose might have been the

most satisfying aspect of, of the whole thing for your husband.

Is there anything that strikes you as...

D: I believe, yes, I think training those boys, the ones that turned

out so well. He waspr ud of that.

B: Um hum, did you know...

D: Very proud of them.

B: In the beginning though, the station didn't have student announcers,

uh, did they first appear when your husband took over?

D: Yes, uh huh.

B: Was Red Barber the first that you recall?

D: Oh no...

B: He was among the first I know.

D: ...yes, he was among the first, but I don't think he was the first.

I don't know who was the first.

B: It's, it's very hard to pin that down in the records, but uh...

D: What year, do you know, do you remember what year Red came?

B: Well, now, now, Mr. Barber came in 1930, the spring of 1930, so it...

D: Well, then he must have been.

B: So it wouldn't have been too long after you all arrived.

WRUF 9A Side One
bd Page 19

D: But I can't understand why they have Mr. Powell coming in 1930.

Of course it was just, uh, from September, October, November, December,

just four months, but it was. And he, he went to work right away.

B: Um hum. So that was September of 1929.

D: Of '29. What did I say?

B: Well, yes, I just wanted to make sure.

D: Oh, definitely.

B: Because uh...

D: That's one thing I don't forget.

B: Right.

D: Because I left Washington then and closed the apartment and went up

home for two weeks,Aput the furniture in storage, because we didn't

know whether we were gonna like it. And uh...

B: So he was prepared to give it kind of a trial period.

D: Oh yes. That was all, well, of course, he didn't know whether it

was satisfactory or not. You see, in a new job like that, something

entirely different.

B: Had he ever worked at an actual radio station before?

D: I think he did. I think he did some, had some jobs in Washington,

(fUork dof co'Acwo but I don't remember. But he had some

connection with it anyway. And uh, uh, something I wanted to say

and I forgot it now.

B: In connection with moving down here or uh...

D: Yeah, oh yeah. That was it because we had, you know, we didn't think

it was definite at all. My father, as long as my father lived, of

WRUF 9A Side One
bd Page 20

course I never felt like I was permanent, you know, but I always

kind of thought we would go back home. Garland was from Cumberland,

Maryland, which is seventy-two miles northwest of Hagerstown. And "A

daddy died in '38. And then after that I was, I don't know why,

then this was home to me.

B: Well, a lot of people feel that way.

D: Uh huh, it seems so strange to me because I did love Gainesville,

but I don't know. Hagerstown was an awfully nice town. Very

nice people there.
B: Um hum, I've been up in that neighborhood before, when I was in the

army I was stationed in Washington, D.C.

D: Oh yeah.

B: So I, I know that whole area up there.

D: Beautiful section I think near Washington and Hagerstown.

B: Right up in thV western part of Maryland.

D: Yes.

B: And that area of northern Virginia that's up along the Potomyc up

that way, very nice. Uh, it seems as though, uh, it would be tough

to leave a place like that.

D: Uh hum. And of course Washington, we were so close, we would go back

and spend a weekend, you know, and it was just almost like living


B: Now, uh, I understand that your husband in addition to managing the

radio station(occasionally would have to do other things like sell

WRUF 9A Side One
bd Page 21

advertising and that sort of thing. Do you recall,..

D: I don't know anything about that.

B: Okay. Um, was he active in, for instance, speaking to civic groups

and so forth around town that sort of thing?

D: Oh yes, I think so. He was a Rotarian, and a very good one. He

was governor of the Rotary Club for the state of Florida. And the

university was very nice because you have to visit every club when

you're governor.

B: That's one of the duties.

D: Yes, that's one of the duties.

B: Every club in the state.

D: Yeah, and.that's quite, that was, in those days, now I think it's

divided into three or four sections, just one governor for each

section. But Mr. Powell had the whole thing. And of course, I went

with him on all those. I was bored to tears but... (Chuckle).

B: (Chuckle). Some things you just have to do.

D: Yeah. So that year, of course your governor just for one year, you

know, and they, the board of controlthey called them board of

control then, not the board of regents.

B: That's right.

D: Evidently they-gave him permission, of course/ t was an honor to be

governor of the whole state.

B: I imagine they thought it reflected well on the station.

D: Yeah, uh huh.

WRUF 9A Side One
bd Page 22

B: Good for the public relations image.

D: Uh huh, good public relations.

B: Did you husband leave a journal or any articles that he had written

or anything of that nature. Are there any writings that you might


D: Well the only thing I have is that book on the flag and I don't

even know where that is.

B: I was wondering because I uh,...

D: I imagine they have it down at the library, I don't know.

B: I may check for it down there. Uh, I discovered uh...

D: I got rid of so many books when I moved from the other house into

a small apartment. I had no place so I gave them to the university.

and to the public library. All of his books...

B: I may check, you know, in the ir civ S.Ii'CS I did discover

through a friend of mine, he came upon it by accident and told me

about it. That there was a book written I think around 1937 on the

radio stations operated by educational institutions. And as it

turned out the section dealing with the University of Florida and

WRUF had been written by Major Powell.

D: Well of course it would be because...

B: Right. So I have a copy of that article. But other than that I

haven't been able to discover any of his other writings.

D: I don't think he. he may have, I don't know, but I don't think so

B: I had heard that he had written that book on the...

WRUF 9A Side One
bd Page 23

D: Flag.

B: Flag, uh huh.

D: Just a little small manual, really. I'm sure I have it somewhere.

I don't know where it is.

B: But, at least that, that really doesn't...


WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 24

B: ...wanted to check that. Um, I didn't want to take up too much

of your time today, and uh, I'veAabout got to the end of my prepared

list of questions. And uh, the only thing I wanted to, uh, you
a^ bleaFr, T _"I, Ok c <''llce
know, ask about now before I go back to my office is whether you

knew perhaps the whereabouts of some of the, uh, the people who have

been with the station over the years that I might have lost track

of, I have...

D: 'The only one I know of and he's dead, is George Walsh and he was in

Louisville for years. And then there was-Cincinnati, what was that

boy's name. See I wasn't close to any of them. Red I knew...

B: Right, and of course, he is probably the most famous of them all.

D: Oh yes, oh yes.

B: So he, it's awfully easy to remember that.
Slcs 4 ,c( o uI4 fAeud'ncv 5\ onft
".D: Well, we, I lon't know we, I guess I saw more of Red than I did any-

body. I don't know.

B: I was wondering if, uh, let's see any names like uh...

D: If you'd mention the name if might come back to me.

B: Cliff Beasley, who I understand...

D: Oh yes!

B: ...was an assistant in the mid '30s.

D: He lives here in town.

B: Does he?

D: Yes.

B: Hum, I'll have to look him up.

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 25

D: Well, he could tell you plenty.

B: I imagine he'd be in the phone book. could-

D: Yeah, let me see if I have it, yes.

S.-:' :Manuel Turner was a good friend of Ralph Nemmins, but I don't think

Manuel Turner ever worked at the radio station. But he andARalph

were very close friends.

B: I had a letter not long ago from Mr. Nemmins, did I mention that

to you?

D: Uh huh, you did. I thought he had passed away. I was really very

glad hear it.

B: Well I think I mentioned...

D: He was such a handsome young man.

B: Oh, well I'll have to tell him you said so. L-

D: He was, and always very neat and trim, you know, well groomed.

B: I'm going to see him in the near future I hope. I've written him

another letter, and I'm going to call him on the phone.

D: Well remember me to him, if he remembers, he probably won't remember


B: Oh, I'm sure he will.

D: Beasley.

B: And I'm going to seerpM over at channel 4 in Jacksonville.

He also worked at the station.

D: I don't know him.

B: But it was, it was somewhat later.

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 26

D: Clifford Beasley, that's his office. You want his home address,O

or, I can give you both.

B: Oh okay.

D: No, wait a minute, no I can't either, yes I can. Clifford C. and

C.,---now you see now. Now Clifford would be Clifford, and the

only thing is office, 1938 W. University Avenue, then there's a

C. C. Beasley. AIf that was Cliff it would be under his name, see

so it must be Charlie or something like that. And that telephone

number is 376-5404.

B: 5404?

D: Uh huh.

B: Oh, very good It looks like I've found another one. I'll give

him a call. As a matter of fact I'll call him this afternoon.

Because, uh, well you know, it's going to be impossible for me to

find everybody, there were so many...

D: Oh yes, oh mercy me.

B: ...and of course... -

D: And Norm Davis too, if you've heard of him.

B: He's in Miami now isn't he?

D: Oh is he, I don't know, I used to hear him in, uh, he was on, uh,

television. And uh, he was such a darling boy. I remember him

very well. And uh,he went from here to Jacksonville, and then

went on. I never hear him anymore. I'm not much of a T.V. fan

or really radio fan either.

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 27

B: I heard somewhere that he is now in Miami working at, uh, WPLG,

channel 10. Uh, I don't think he's on the air, he may be doing

some sort of office work.

D:OhSIe's such a nice he :Y, P1 r,14 1,^
D:OHe's such a nice, was such a nice looking young man. .All my friends

you know, cause they knew about him, being at the station, just

about, and they were all quite interested, you know to see himon

television. And they all remarked what a nice, he had a nice

presence, as well as being nice looking.

B: You know my budget is rather limited, it's too bad I can't travel

to see these people in person. I think what I'm going to have to

do is send them a list of questions and ask them to make a tape

recording and send them back to me so I can get some of this. But

I've had, uh, responses from as far away as Denver and Richmond.

D: Have you really?

B: Uh, there was a fellow here, oh around the time of World War II, by

the name of Al Flannigan.

D: That's who I was trying to think of. Now that...

B: He's the one in Denver.

D: Is he in Denver now?

B: Uh hum.

D: Well you know, if you hear from him, uh, his wife Effie,Ashe was a

darling girl, and after they left here, of course, while Garland was

still alive, we always got a Christmas card from 'em, and Effie would
/ ", .lcr, n
always write little message on it' And even after Mr. Powell passed

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 28

away for several years I had a card from Effie and with a note on

it. And the last I heard she was going blind.

B: Oh, no kidding.

D: During the war, Al was a good friend of Ginger Rogers' husband so
Effie and Ginger I think were quite good friends. So I heard, now

that's all hear-say, I don't know. But uh, I just never could get

over Effie writing to me. And I'm not a very good correspondent,

so I would write at Christmas time, and then I was so upset when I

lost Garland I just stopped everything. And yet they all kept on

for quite a while, for a couple years, I was a widow for four years.

And uh, I don't remember when, but I haven't heard from them since
b6ce. '
I've been since I remarried.

B: Apparently he is doing very well. He is the president of...

D: He was a very temperamental boy. DolYgjs

B: Oh really? Well he's the president of a communication corporation

that runs a television station there.

D: He'd be successful, he's smart.

B: I imagine very energetic.

D: Real tall, real tall.

B: A rather slender fellow with black hair.

D: Yes, yes.

B: I saw a picture of him. There was a little booklet printed, I guess

around 1942 about the station. A have copy of it. It shows your

husband, it shows Al Flannigan, it shows Otis Boggs, a lot of the people

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 29

who were there at the time.

D: Yeah, there was another boy who has since died, he had cancer of

the throat, and he was such a nice young man. Brownie, I don't

know what his first name was, he was Jewish. And just, oh he was
Of Cotr5,C-
so nice, so nice. It was so sad he cI e2 and he didn't

live very long.

B: Oh that's a shame. Did it happened back then, or was it more recently?

D: Yes, oh no, this while he was still at the radio station.

B: Oh, what a shame.

D: Very young, very young man. And his name, they called him Brownie,

so I suppose his name was Brown, I don't know, but I remember him

very well, and George. Oh, there's another boy, that had such a

good speaking voice.

B: Well let's see, I remember people, well I/have heard of people like

Dan Riss who went on to the movies.

D: Oh yes, yes. Oh, Mr. Ray Dancer is another one. Have you heard...

B: I talked to him a few weeks ago. Do you know him?

D: Yes, very well, know his sister very well. She lives here. Very

fond of Cathy and I was very fond of'Ray.

B: Well apparently he's doing very well down there in Tampa. Uh, he uh,

made a quick trip to Gainesville not long ago to, uh, talk to a bunch

of students.

D: Oh did he?

B: And unfortunately he didn't get a chance to spend very much time here,

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 30

or I'm sure he would have called you, but...

D: Uh huh. I don't know he has his sister, but he used to always send

me Christmas cards too. And when he got married I sent him a wedding

present, and I don't know whether I sent the baby, they had a baby

a couple years after, I don't remember whether I sent them, or whether

Cathy just told me. But I know I did send them a wedding present,

cause I remember what I sent them. They must have been married around

1962 cause it was a year after I'd had my trip and I sent them some iJ

brass that I had gotten in India. So that's how I can place that.

B: Right, I had a chance to talk with him for a while about the station.

D: Oh, he was awfully nice, a nice looking boy too.

B: Yes. Well, you know, what I've noticed is that it's almost like a

fraternity, a club you might say.

D: Yes, uh huh.

B: Made up of people who worked there in the past. It seemed that, uh,

there was a kind of a spirit, a comAradship.

D: Yes right.

B: It seems as though the announcers would even go to the station when

they weren't supposed to be working, just to be there and talk to

the others. So I'm not surprised that they make an effort to stay

in touch with each other, and with you.

D: Well not too many have stayed in touch with me. Just a few...

B: There's always a few who want to keep in touch.

D: I can't think of that boy's name. He went to Cincinnati, I'm sure

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 31

he had a good job there too with f station. Several of the boys

went out there to that station. And I can't even, I don't even

remember the call there.

B: Oh, it might have been WLW in Cincinnati.

D: It was, WL, uh huh.

B: Okay, I can name some of them. Well, Dan Riss was one of them,

he went up there and then he went to Hollywood to be a movie actor.

D: Yes, uh huh.

B: Um, Charlie Murdock is up there now.

D: Well that's crazy enough, but...

B: Of course he's a more recent fellow.
-T, CetIJ" 3-I tv k k,
D: I can't remember,,picture himL n my mind.

B: Well he went to school here in the 1950's.

D: Oh welL I didn't know him.

B: So, he was very recent, then he went to Miami, and now he's up there

in .ie4ant-ti- i. That's seems to be aAstandard trip. Go rom Gainesville


D: Yes...

B: Of course Red Barber did that too.

D: Yes, they did that in those days. Now mention another one, there's

still a boy you haven't mentioned.

B: Oh, gee, I'm trying to think about that.

D: He had a wonderful voice, speaking voice I'm talking of, not singing,


WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 32

B: Dan Allen? No, that would have been too late.

D: No, I don't bti- i...

B: Um, do you remember Ted Covington who was around...

D: Yes!

B: ... in the mid '40s?

D: Definitely, now he's...

B: ...and of course he still does the football broadcast5with Otis.

D: Yes, and he's down at Lakeland, isn't he?

B: That's right.
D: I'd forgotten about him. Yes, oh, and another boy that went to

Lakeland was O'Connel, or Connelly.

B: McConnel.

D: McConnel, Dwayne McConnel, yes, yes.

B: Right. I want to talk to him again, because I understand he did

more of the engineering part of setting up the transmitter.

D: Yes, he did, well he was the engineer, that's right.

B: Wasn't it in 1948 or there about when they put out the new transmitter

on the west of town?

D: I don't remember what year it was.

B: I think he, last time I saw him he remarked that he was working on

that while he was here. So I'm going to have to talk to him again.

D: Yes, he was an engineer, and I tell ya, (6J'd l &r no who lives in

Melrose was also an engineer while Garland was there. But uh, what's

O'Connel's first name?

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 33

B: Dwayne.
-sA 1WA
D: Dwayne, and I knew his wife so well, cause she was a pharmacist,

was down at Wise, we first got to know her through Dwayne, and then

down..'. They were a nice couple, real tall.

B: Right, he is tall and slender.

D: Very tall.

B: I saw him in Miami last year at the state association of broadcasters

convention. You know there were so many people. There's a card

file in the station that must be that long with these three by five

cards. And I looked through all of them.

D; Oh my gosh.

B: It took me all afternoon one day. And I wrote down many of the names,

the ones that looked familiar and uh, really it's just so amazing.

D: Those broadcasting associations were fun. I used to love to go to

those, cause I knew so many of the, uh, the newspaper people there. And,cd-

B: Oh here we are, Norman Davis, yeah. He did announcing sports...
ft -
D: Yeahlhe did sports.

B: And uh, I was intrigued by the salaries that some of the people made

as compared with what they have to make today. It's just amazing,

uh, back during World War II, Al Flannigan was making $50 a month.

D: Oh no.

B: Oh, that's right. Uh, I noticed that, uh, it seems that one of the

men who worked at the/tation in the early forties eventually became

a prisoner of war.

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 34

D: Oh no.

B: Uh, a fellow by the name of William Carrie. He was an announcer..-ic i rt

D: Oh yes! Oh yes!

B; He was in the air corp...

D: Yes, he was in the air corp, but he was killed.

B: Oh was he?

D: I thought that he was shot down. What did they call him, what was

his nickname?

B: Well, I'm not sure, I suppose it could have been Billlrmcf Ire ilW

D: His sister... I know her she lives... Yes, he was a very nice young

man too.

B: There were so many names. Here's a name that perhaps you might recall,

and I don't know much about this person except that I saw his name

in the card file, R. DeWitt Brown.

D: Oh.

B: He would have been a very early employee.

D: No, listen, he washed of the music.

B: Director, okay, director of the station orchestra, i Sd n4e carc -MC.

D: Yeah, well, but he was also director of the band.

B: I see, he was on the faculty.

D; Faculty, he was on the faculty. Oh, I should say I do remember him,

mercy me.

B: Okay, because he appears in the card file as an employee of the


WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 35

D: Well of course, yeah, I guess he did have something to do, I know

he was out there a lot.

B: I suppose that's the way it was all set up. Administratively, if

there's a station there and they have to be listed as an employee,

I think the dean of the Engineering College was listed as an employee

because the engineering faculty took care of the transmitter in the

early days.

D: ,iWho was that?

B: Um, Dean Weil.

D: Oh yes, of course, I knew him very well. Of course I think he's still

living, he's retired of course now. Oh I remember them very well.

7y -,rlc A qxi we were real good friends.

B: Do you happen to know if he might live here in Gainesville?

D: No, he does not live in Gainesville anymore. I don't know whetherjc--

his wife passed away, and he remarried. And then when he retired,

X~ I think they went to New York, but I'm not at all sure. That's been,

of course that was after Darlene died.

B: Information has been rather sparse, uh, you know from back around the

late twenties and early thirties. I imaginethings have a way of

getting lost and...

D: Well, it was such a hopeless little place, you know.

B: I got the impression that it was really run on a shoestring basis.

D: Oh it was terrible. It was. Imagine havingea box to sit on to broad-


WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 36

B: They didn't have enough chairs?

D: No, they didn't have any chairs, didn't have anything.

B: Oh boy.

D: It was unbelievable. Well you see it had just started and uh,

Griffith left, I think, cause he had a offer of another job. And,LL

John talked to Garland, *.'l' r .... infc,-fi4 af ki14

B: Um hum, let me see if I. For some reason the name you mentioned

doesn't really ring a bell as the first director of the station.

But I may be mistaken.

D: That's what I always thought, Griffith, or Griffin. I could be


B: That name does ring a bell. But for some reason uh...

D: I never met him because he had gone...

B: Oh I see.

D: the time we came. Or if he had gone, I just never met him.

Oh I know! Mitchell.

B: Okay that, that's sounds familiar.

D: Mitchell, had something to do with it, now maybe he took over after

Griffith, temporarily.

B: I think he was also referred to as Major something maybe a military

title. J've sie-\ -i(cZ rA(fcryc 4---

D: I believe so, I believe he was a retired army man. I'm not sure about

that though, I never met him. But Mitchell I did know. And his wife

lives right down the street here.

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 37

B: No kidding. I've got that name in my file someplace.

D: But I think he, I know he was here running the station, Mitchell,

I think whenwe came down, just temporarily I'd forgotten about


B: Oh here, you may be interested in this, just out of curiosity.

I found in the archives a copy of the program that was done on the

first anniversary of the station's opening, and here are the things

that went on. Now her&'s an address by Dr. Tigert, vocal solo by

Miss Virginia McCall.

D: I remember her, yes.

B: Right. and uh, oh here we are, Major B. C. Riley.

D: Oh yeah, that's...

B: Was he there before Major Powell?

D: YeahA maybe he's the oneA And he, he was also, what did you say,

he wasn't head of the engineering department, he was head of the,


B: Perhaps the Speech Department?

D: No, no, no...

B: Because it was Dr. Well that was the head of engineering.

D: What do you call when they write in?

B: Oh the agricultural extension...

D: No...

B: department.

D: Extension, extension...

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 38

B: Yeah, that's right.

D: He was head of that I thought.

B: Oh, well, I'll check on that. That's an idea that hadn't thought


D: Of course C/lACe Vr phrecS dead.

B: You see there were all sorts of things here, a lot of vocal solos.

D: I don't even remember this program.

B: Probably by local citizens.

D: He was a citizen, M. B. Parrish, is that it.

B: Um, W. B. I think.

D: I mean W. B.

B: This is a copy of an old carbon copy of the...

D: I remember him very well.
fl i ri r -,
B: Um hum, ,Elnor Yes, that's right, they think of him more

or less as the father of the Journalism College.

D: Yes, oh yes.

B: Because he was so active in that.

D: He was very nice too.

B: This name Ruth Dobbin seems to ring a bell, wasn't she employed by

the station?
0- y 1Lr yL(thtt-
D:1Yes, oh you ought to talk to her. Ruth Smith.

B: Is she still around town?

D: Mrs. d Smith. Yes, oh my, she was a musician if ever there was one,

but she has pr, lU kice?. She was really quite gifted and real nice.

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 39

She\ claims I brought her up, but I never knew it. (Chuckle).

B: (Chuckle).

D: Ed Smith, let's see, they live on, uh, I guess that, I know exactly

where they live, but I don't know that I...

B: Oh she was listed as the station pianist.

D: Yes, oh she played beautifully.

B: She must have been around all the time.
4t1 The f'-
D: /Most of the time, she accompanied everybody, and she was so good.

Real little girl. I don't know whether I can find it, I know that

her husband's name is Ed. Bl'-he--

B: There are so many Smith's.
PI/ D: NW 4th Place. She's uh, the side of her house is on 5th Terrace,

and whether that's tenth street or not in front of that... Seems

to me it is.

B: There are so many Smith's in there, you know, I probably will have

to take my chances and start calling people.

D: I'd hate to have somebody do that. No>10th Avenue is what I mean,

not 10th Street, 10th Avenue. Here's 9th Avenue but that's Janis,

and that's not it. She and her husband travel a lot, they go abroad.

He's with the uh, I don't know what he's in, he's with the university.

Another very smart man, very nice. If I can think of somebody who

lives over there. I -awhere Peggy lives, she lives right

next door to Peggy, but her house backs up to Peggy's. &osoh rio

I never saw so many Smith's.

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 40

B: Huh, that's right.

D: Well go ahead while I'm looking up ovice fc- aO---

B: It seems that, uh, two men that I know who, who remember your
husband very fondly are Bob Leach and Bob Smith.

D: Oh yes.

B: Who were there, uh...

D: Oh yes, Bob Smith, yes.

B: ABob Smith was there in the early fifties.

D: Yes, oh yes.

B: And then Bob Leach in the late forties.

D: Bob and Liz Smith, remember them very well, and they always send

me a Christmas card, too. And I run into Liz every so often in
the market out here.

B: Right, they live right out here west of 34th Street.
so 4 W4-
D: Yeah. AShe comes to the market there. And who's the other one you


B: Bob Leach, WhC a S -

D: Oh yeah, now I haven't seen Bob in a long tim.

B: Well he worked there in the late forties, I guess after he got out

of the army and came back as a student.

D: Well, but he aer there, I remember him very well. And then he went

down to, seems to me didn't he O _lre- to Key West and work

there for a while?

B: Yes, that's right, he was in Key West and then came back here.

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 41

D: Uh huh.

B: They, uh, both of themAwere very fond of the Major and uh, you know
-+el cotJel
they couldAtalk for a week straight, you know, and never repeat

the same story.

D: Really?

B: 'It seems as thought all these boys who worked there over the years,

all must have had a good sense of humor because they, they all have

a lot of funny stories to tell.

D: Well they were all nice boys, they were nice boys. That would be

NE 10th Avenue. But you get hold of Ruth, who could I call? Well

I could call Hagan and see, if she was home and find out what street

that is. Want me to do that?

B: Would you do that, I would appreciate it.

D: Yes. She could tell you plenty, /c, --

B: Good I was, uh, I was hoping that this would happen, you know. Every

time I talk to someone I end up being steered toward someone else.

And that's what I was hoping to find.

Dy She lives on NE 5th Terrace, 10, so if, if 10th Avenue that she's

on, but I can't find it in the book. Let me go see if Peggy's home.

B: Okay.

D: A7 C f

B: Oh that's great. You know, uh, that could be really very important.

Uh, it could, uh...

D: Oh, I'm sure she can help you a lot. Yeah.

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 42

B: ...lead me to someone who could really explain a lot of things.

D: I just don't think of those.

B: And...

D: That's so far beyond then, I mean so far back, you know.
i>eez \}~doe-5 ;t
B: Deesn!t really seem like, uh, so far.

D: Oh my, seems just so far back. It was such a happy time, too.

And uh...

B: I, uh, I was wondering if you had seen, uh, an article in the news-

paper about ayoung man who has had a wide variety of experiences.

Do you happen to know Dwight Godwin. He says that when he was in...

D: No.

B: .... in high school, uh, his teacher Miss Thelma Bolten arranged for

him to read short stories on thewair when he was in high school.

D: For goodness sakes.
A'A, -i11
B: Apparently that's how he got his start incommunications.

D: Is he the wife, or the husband of the woman who sings? Is, L -

B: Uh, no, his wife is a ballerina.

D: Oh is she?

B: Uh, Dwight is over at the Journalsim College now, he makes films.
do3 b6o- J Fdo b6c4 '
And uhIl just thought perhaps you might remember himalthough he


D: No, I don't remember him at all.

B: He probably was not around the station very much. I guess he came
injlsre to dto spi b I >Tt in just to do those special programs.. But he has done an awful lot

of things.

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 43

Ldog rLk;A
D: I tell you, wait a minute, I'll tell ya another person who used to, A W1A

connected with the university that did programs. Her name now is
23rn'sce WI'eviS
-irnie-Sams, and uh, I don't know whether she did agricultural

programs, but she had a regular program. And uh, the only reason

I happen to be in touch with her is because she's at the, on the

hospital auxilary. And another girl in Jacksonville by the name

of, no wait, I can't even think what her name is, te she calls me

every so often when she comes into town. She's a darling too, she's

a musician. And uh, I could find out her name because one of the
-t.4 -,
waitresses out at Maas Brothers, she comes either over here to give

concerts or something. And she, they eat out, she and her husband

eat out at Maas' on Saturday night. And so many of us widows used

to eat out there. And uh, I ran into her there one night. And

Judy who is a waitress would know her name, but I don't know her

married name, cause I asked her. I said how'd you get to know Joy.

She said just because she came in here, Si'5 cLreal I44vactevp-i Now

who'd I say? Mims, it's worth giving her a call. (Aright boy.)

Mrs. Bernice Mims, 703 NE 2nd Street. (No Jimbo!) Uh, 378-5070

B: Okay.

D: She and another girl, but think the other girl died, I don't

remember her name.

B: Speaking of musicians, did you recall, uh, Mr. Talbot, our former

school superintendent was with that group called the Orange Grove

String Band.

WRUF 9A Side Two
bd Page 44

D: Oh, I remember that, but I didn't remember who was with that,

B: I'm going to have to call. h;...

D: Except for one person and he was, uh, f5sc/lo 7 and he was, uh,

with the R.O.T.C. was a regular soldier and he, how I happen to

know him, he used to shoe my horse.

B: Oh,

D: And oh my, that Orange Grove String Band, I should say. I think

you might be interested in this. Uh, the different programs,

Moods and Melodies. Florida under Five flags.

B: These are really very nice.

D: Aren't they? Memories inTwilight. Now the boy who did that is

the boy I'm trying, young man I'm trying to think of. I bet Ruth Sc

Dobins can tell you. University of Florida Football Network, Orange

Grove String Band... Aud Ae. F/r---