Interview with Zoila Salas, February 1, 1974

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Interview with Zoila Salas, February 1, 1974
Salas, Zoila ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:


Subjects / Keywords:
Hillsborough County Oral History Collection ( local )
Spatial Coverage:
Hillsborough County (Fla.) -- History.


This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

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Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
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This interview is part of the 'Hillsborough' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
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Tampa 2-25-74 Nelson Matavenda /
Interviewer: Nelson Matavenda
Subject; Miss Zoila Salas

M: One of the things I've tried to do is to structure the interview by

having questions which help to save time, instead of trying to go

all over; and keep it short and also get better information. Are

there any questions you want to ask me about myself or anything you'd

like to know about the project?

S: Well, are you from Tampa--you say you're not from Tampa?

M: No ma'm, I'm from Miami, originally.

S: Oh, Miami.

M: And I lived....

S: Of Spanish descent?

M: Italian.

S: Italian? Allevende.

M: Allevende. My father came from Italy.

S: Italy. Uh huh. Well, like the majority of people here in Tampa--their

parents live in Italy and Even

Lorenzas--they had to learn English. Not a word of English did they


M: And one of the things, well, I myself. I've lived in

Gainesville off and on for ten years, studying, working, teaching...

S: ? It don't worry you no more. When I was there, you

could walk that campus like nothing, but now...

M:1So, when's the last time you were there? Did you ever go back...

S: Well, I visited after that.,.. visited after that, because I hqd a

nephew going to school there&-a grand nephew--and I visit. But it


(S) was so immense. You know, it was a room right there

in Thomas Hall. That's where we used to room during the summer. See,

I went to school during the summer. That's where they had co-ed

students during the summer.

M: Well, so I'm presently studying for my Ph.D.. I've reached the point

of doing the dissertation, and I selected for my topic a study--a

historical study--of an educational system where the people were a

minority group. Because I wanted to understand how immigrants were

dealt with in the school systems, and how immigrants formed their own

educational systems, their own programs. What I...I'm interested

not only in knowing how Ibor how to deal witiso many students who

spoke no English, and had a different culture.

S: They had what there was....what they call a pecking school.

M: I wanted to know about that..

S: Sort of like departmental work, that's what pecking is, departmental.

M: Things like that.

S: Yeah.

M: So that's where it's at. So I've structured the questions to take

certain topics I'll ask you. I there's anythi you don't feel like

you should answer, or any special answers you want to give, that's

fine with me. Okay. Now....Oh, one thing I've got to tell you

personally is that I really am excited about meeting you because I

spent something like a month,reading the School Board minutes over

there at the County School System, and to me, your name and the names


(M) of some of the other teachers--I know the Dewool sisters....there was..

S: The Garcia sisters.

M: The Garcia sisters.

S: They got to stick together, got to have their heads


M: And I've also done extensive study of the newspapers in town. I've

read the "Trib" and I've read the Tampa Times, and to me, it looks

like it happened yesterday, now. But I don't know any of these

people--to me they're like ghosts.

S: Oh, well, there are a lot of them right here in Tampa....oozes of them.

M: So, it's sort of nice meeting somebody....

S: There's Velasco--he was in charge of the People Welfare Department.

M: Uh huh.

S: She just retired three years ago. First she taught at Ibor.

M: And she was who? Who was that?

S: Velasco--Provincia Velasco. She taught there; she was teaching fourth

grade at Ibor school when Mr. Cuiahemange,who was a School Board member,

asked her if she would like to the...take over the People Welfare Department.

She did--she did an excellent job of it.... excellent. She's the one

who put it on the map, believe me.

M: That was back about 1940, wasn't it? Late 30's?

S: Somewhere around there.

M: Chatemange was the.....

S: Yeah, he was a School Board member many years, uh huh.


M: Well, let's see what I've got here. First, can you state your full name

for the records?

S: What?

M: Your full name.

S: Zoila.

M: Mrs....Miss or...

S: Mrs. Zoila A. Salas.

M: Zoila A. One of the reasons for doing this: is: if I misplace a tape,

and I wanted to get it....

S: You want to know where....that's right.

M: That's mainly it. Uh, your birth place and birth date.

S: I was born in Cuba...

M: Cuba.

S: In September, 1900.

M: And when did you come to Tampa?

S: Oh, I came way after, when I was about 6 or 7 years old.

M: Okay, that would be about 1906, 1907.

S: Oh, I didn't come to Tampa though. I went to Central America. And then

my- parents went to Central America. Honduras.

M: Well, when was your first contact...

S: Then we moved from British Honduras to Tampa.

M: When would that be--about?

S: God knows.

M: You were still a child then, weren't you?


S: Sure, very small.

M: More or less, were you about eight years old, ten years old?

S: Or maybe younger.

M: Okay. And your native language was Spanish.

S: Both was.

M: Both what?

S: It was said Spanish. As my brother's--my older brother's. I was the brothers and my sister--I lived with my sister here--

Mrs. Frankle. And she So I heard from

her both languages.

M: In Tampa?

S: Yes.

M: But you did....

S: First Of course, I wasn't because I was too small


M:: UH huh.

S: But they did--they spoke English. So, well naturally we

you know?

M: But the first language you learned was Spanish?

S: Oh Spanish, of course.

M: Okay.

S: 'Cause my mother spoke Spanish.

M: That was it. Your father spoke Spanish....

S: Of course, both, yes.


M: Uh, just out of curiosity, were they both from Cuba, or had they

immigrated from Spain?

S: Yes, both from Cuba. Uh huh, both from Cuba.

M: They were both born in Cuba?

S: Both from Cuba, yes. Both were born in Cuba.

M: Wow.

S: My grandfather on my father's side was from Logo, France.

M: Uh huh.

S: And my, on my mother's side, he was from Canary Islands.

M: Is that--that's not the Balvico Islands, is it?

S: No. Canary Islands, off Spain. In Spain-- inary Islands.

M: I was wondering what Balvico is....okay.

M: All right, now. Can you name for me any schools, and the location of each

one, that you taught at in Tampa, before 1930.

S: I only taught at Ibor; I only taught at one school.

M: Ibor.

S: ALL my life I stayed there.

M: Uhat year did you start teaching there?

S: 1925. It was during the Hoover years time.

M: You musteve been......
: there.
S: And in 1925 I October, I think it was. Uh huh (affirmative)

M: Okay.

S: 1925.


M: And what kind of preparation did you have be a teacher?

S: Nothing at all, I only had my high school.

M: YOu had high school?

S: High school--that's all I had.

M: But you didn't start teaching until you were 25....

S: Oh no, no, no. No I had to pass an examination--the

teacher's exam.

M: Uh huh.

S: And we taught, you see. it really

was., and you told them that. And then, you took courses You went

to the University of Florida. And then they sent teachers over here--

professors--to teach courses over here, too.

M: From the University.

S: HEom the University. So we used to go back to school and take courses,

and then we would be the summer...spend the summer over there. And

that's where I knew degree--that's where I got my degree.

M: But you mustove been going to high school in your twenties, then.

S: Yes. Yes.

M: You started school here late.

S: Yes.

M: Since you......because you started teaching immediately upon graduation,

I know.

S: No, no,no. There was.....a few years lapsed.

M: Okay. What kind of preparation did they give teachers, in those days,

to teach in a Spanish school, or at Latin schools. In other words...


S: No...they didn't give you any preparation at all.

M: No special preparation?

S: No, the only thing we had was the chart. That's....that's

what you call a chart...chart. It was a chart where you taught

the child how to say things--you know, repeat after you. Uh,

"This is my head" you taught the child; "These are my arms," and

he'd repeat, you know. "AndMy'clothes, shoes," whatever it was--

different parts of the body, you could.....And that's the way

they learned English.

M: Why did they call it a chart, though?

S: That's what they called them--charts. Because they had these

charts with all these different sentences.

M: You mean in English?

"S: In English, yes.

M: And did they have pictures or anything?

S: Oh, they had pictures, lots of pictures, yes. We taught a lot

of pictures in those days.

M: So how many kids did you have in a classroom?

S: Oh, quite a number. We had as many as, maybe, fifty in a class.

But then they converted this into a school. Andthen

you could handle it very well, because say, for the first hour

and a half I had fifty children. I was supposed to take care of

twenty, but fifty I had. Then my other fifty went to either

Nature Studies, which is for little ones, or...or Science for the

older ones. You see, I taught first grade all my life. And they


(S) had music for the young children. Teachers--special teachers--it

was outside teachers. Then we had auditorium, physical ed, uh...

what else did we have? Music....I said We had

Now, while I had

these children--I was teaching reading and writing and numbers.

M: This would be chart class or first grade.

S: No, chart was teaching them their body, particular names of the

body, clothes--anything that you.....candy, glasses--anything that

you want. You have to teach them by the chart, by pictures.

M: But in the chart class, was that shorter....

S: That was like a kindergarten.

M: Right. But that was for special purpose, wasn't it?

S: Oh yes. It was....because to teach them English. Because they

didn't know a word of English.

M: Because you didn't have chart classes in all the schools, did

you? Only in Spanish schools.

S: No, no...Ibor was the only one to have all those chart classes.

M: I heard about Drew Primary, though, wasn't that...

S: The what?

M: Drew Primary.

S: Well, Junior Primary came in later.

M: Not "Junior"....."Drew". Drew Elementary and Drew Primary. I think

it was out in West Tampa.

S: It must'v er there; I don't remember about that one.


M: Okay.

S: But I know we had a Junior Primary--we called that Junior.

M: A Junior Primary?

S: Junior Primary. I think we did.

M: Was it junior high or Junior Primary?

S: Uh,....well, let's forget that.

M: Forget that.

S: Forget that. But I know the chart--that's the way....the children

in the first grade--we had chart. It was like a kindergarten,

because we had to teach everything by using pictures and charts,

you know?

M: Right. And mainly to teach them English.

S: Uh huh (affirmative)

M: Now, can you describe the students who were in chart class? Were

they all five years old, or did they often put older people

in with the....

S: Well, they were supposed to be six by the...January.

M: Oh, I see. So you had to be under six years to go through the


S: Yeah.

M: Okay.

S: I think in those days they came a little earlier--I'm not sure

the laws were enforced in those days. I don't think so. They

might have come earlier, because I know several..... f course

they had to be ----I know there was one, I remember, who had to


(S) be six by January,

M: And then they removed him out of the chart?

S: Well, yes, after they knew English. They had to know their


M: Well, whether or not they knew English, they would have to

move out of the chart class. In other words, if they didn't

learn, you'd still pass on...

S: Well, yes, I usually passed them with a social promotion.

M: That's a term I've heard about; I don't understand. What was

social promotion?

S: Social promotion? Well, a child--he wasn't really ready--he

went on to second grade.

M: Why?

S: Well, that's what they said. They just have to go on, because

there are too many coming in, you see? Too many children

coming in, so just.....those had to move

And the teachers were very much against it, but the principal

said, "No, you just put it down--'social promotion'."

M: Okay. The teachers were against it?

S: Yes, the teachers didn't like it.

M: The teachers must have had a lot of ideas of their own.

S: You know, because

M: The teachers really were committed then, to teaching them.

S: Oh yes, yes.


M: So, in a sense, there were things that interfered with your


S: Yes. But, of course, we had to do what they told us, you


M: That's true.

S: You have to do what they tell you, so....Unless the child

couldn't read, you hate to promote him, you know?

M: And then the secondgrade teacher--she's got a problem

S: Problem. She's has a problem Everyone's

going to have a problem.

M: Okay.

S: But, of course now they have special teachers that take care

of those children. Some children can never read, you know;

there's something wrong with them.

M: Well, did you have much problems like this: mentally retarded

children, or...other --what was a retarded child? I understand

the word "retardation" meant something else in those days.

S: What?

M: These days we think of mental retardation, but this is different.

S: Well, maybe our died probably. That

would have something to do with it, you know. But....

M: What would be considered, or who woul d be classified a"retarded

child" back in 1925? Would it only be mentally retarded children?

S: Yes. There were six Some were really


(S) retarded, you know? Of course, they didn't examine them as

well as they do now. You know, we have advanced so much. But

we did have some--there's always some--some who are retarded,

you know?

M: But that wasn't a major consideration in the school? That wasn't

really didn't stick out too much?

S: Not very much, no--not in those days. It was because.....I don't

know why.

M: It sounded like y-ou had to move them on.

S: Oh,a social promotion and off they go.

M: More or less, about what percent of the class would get a social

promotion, say in 1926,'27--those first years when you were

teaching. Because that's when things were....were still in the

immigrant status. That's why I'm asking you about those years.

About what percent of the class,each year, would you have to give

a social promotion the first grade?

S: Well, we didn't do that so much in the very early....we stressed

that social promotion more towards the end.

M: Uh huh.

S: Later on, you know.

M: But then in the early years, would you say that you could fail a


S: You could say we failed them more, yeah.

M: In order to retrain him?

S: Yes, yes.


M: Would the......if a child was failed for that year, would he come

back and take the same year again?

S: Yeah, he would have to take the same year.

M: Okay. Now, I want to get an idea of the county course of study.

Was there a course of study that all teachers had to use?

S: Oh yes.

M: And all teachers for the first grade, second grade,....

S: Yes, always, always, yes.

M: Okay. Was this a state-wide thing, or county-wide thing, or just

your school?

S: I don't know. It was.....I should say state-wide

Florida Hillsboro County_.

M: Did you ever have a printed form or something that was in a book,

or anything like that? In other words, where did you find out about

the course of study?

S: Oh we had books, we had books, we had primers.

M: Primers--do you mean student primers?

S: Baby Ray and all that--a bunch of books.

M: Uh huh. Did you have books for the teachers--pedagogical books?

S: Yes, we had books, yeah we had books.

M: And they would list the course of study, I guess.

S: Not so early in the beginning, I don't think. Not many of them,

anyhow, because in the end we did have quite Inumber of books--

professional books.


M: You mean professional books?

S: Yes, something that goes with the reader.

M: Oh, now I see, you mean for you to read.

S: Yes, for me, and that accompanies a reader. It has the daily

lessons in it. And you had exactly what you have to put on the

board--everything, it gives you everything.

M: That's what I meant.

S: That's very good. That was very good, but that didn't come in

early, you know.

M: That didn't come until late, heh?

S: No, that didn't come very early. No, of course not.

M: 1930's....

S: Not forty years ago, no. That came in later.

M: Okay. Well, what did you have in those first few years that you

were teaching?

S: Oh, we had books. We had books--Dr. and like I

said, the first book I know is Baby Ray--I remember that very well.

M: Baby Ray?

S: Baby Ray. I mean that was....I remember that Baby Ray because,right

now, we have the president of the bank--the Columbia Bank--his name

is Ray, and he went to school there, see?

M: Is that Grimaldes?

S: Yes, Grimaldes. I know he came....the first day he came to my room,

he was standing there very quietly, in the back of the room, y-ou


(S) know, and his name was Ray. And so we were teaching the book...

the primer, you see, it was all pre-primer....pre-primer. And

Baby Ray always called him Baby Ray. We

had very, very interesting people that came to our school, all the....

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Zoila.....where are you?

S: Hey, come in. Come in and meet Mr. Matavenda, working on his Ph.D.


S: This is my niece, Marth Franco. She's a social

secretary. He's recording me


M: Not everybody gets recorded (chuckle).

S: Well, I don't care to be recorded (chuckle). Well, I see, this is

just for yourself.

M: Yes.

S: For your own information, nobody else.

M: Exactly. This is the only way I have of finding out. I was so

amazed. There is very- little information written about those days.

People paid great tribute to the teachers, but made no effort to

record what they had done.

S: It's a wonderful school. he leading citizens t to that school.

M: not Chatemange

S: NO, not Chatemange, but the leading citizens went there. Dr.Zapata

you know Dr. Zapata--John Zapata

M: No, I don't.

S: He went there. His children went there; I taught them.


M: John Zapata?

S: Zapata.

M: Uh huh.

S: John Zapata, John Zapata. And his children went there. I taught

the little boy, who was very timid. I see he's out in society

now, and everything; and it's wonderful. I saw him once, when I

was over at the Howard Johnson. I didn't know it was he, though,

and I was having some ice cream there. And when I got up--went

to pay my check--he stood up an"b aid, "Don't you remember me?"

I said--I did, I did remember...the minute I saw John--I said,

"You're John Zapata." and I Oh, I

remembered all of the children.

M: Let me see, here. What kinds of methods--pedagogical methods--did

you use to present your study materials or your.....well, for

examp-le, you taught what kindergarten....

S: Now, the chart--those things we had to make up ourselves. W made

our own work, yes. We had to, oh yes.

M: Why?

S: Because they didn't have anything for us in those days.

M: Well, who originated the idea? Who started the chart class here

in Ibor?

S: I don't know. I really don't know, but when I went there, they

were working on it.

M: Well, did the principal help you with this?

INTERVIEWER: Matavenda P. 18

S: Maybe the teachers, I don't know. It might've been the teachers,

and the supervising principal was Miss.....what was her name?

M: Miss Greer?

S: Miss Pratt.

M: Miss Pratt.

S: Miss Pratt--she was the supervising principal--Miss Pratt. I

think it was Pratt. Now Miss Greer used to teach there--a little

old lady--and she used to teach there. A very- lovely person.

M: She was a teacher in the county system for a long time.

S: Yes. Oh yes, she was.... she was quite old when she waa bor.

A lovely person.

M: When did she die?

S: I don't know, I don't know the year she died.

M: Must have been.....Anyway, let me make a distinction here. Chart

class--I'm trying to find out how it was taught. And I also want

to find out how first grade was taught--what kinds of activities did

you have? What kinds of pedagogical methods were important to teach

the children how to read and write, mathematics, penmanship, hygiene,

I think.

S: Well, we had cards....wemade cards..

M: Okay.

S: ..with words, and then with phrases.

M: This would be first grade?

S: Phonics. There was a lot of phonics;you had to teach a lot of

phonics .


M: Smith told me that. What was phonics?

S: Phonics. Well, it teaches you to sound letters.

M: And what would you do?

S: Well, you have to teach these children the sound, you see, of

the letter.

M: So you would pronounce it for them?

S: And when you'd say ball, you'd say buh, buh, you see?

M: Uh huh.

S: And you'd get letters that you could......teach all that.

M: What kinds of methods did you use had them....did

you have them read in class?

S: Yeah, I taught reading and numbers, that's all I taught. Then we

had a special teacher for writing. She came in to teach them


M: What would you be doing while she was teaching the writing?

S: Well, were usually so busy working y-ourself

you had a whole period to yourself, which was not

very long--about fifteen minutes.

M: But the students, then, stay-ed in your classroom all day long.

S: That...and part of my class. My other class was doing it at different

times, different hours, different minutes of the day. They were

either in music, physical ed, auditorium, nature studies, music.

See, they went to all these different things, while I had one.....

Then one....the class that I had,they- went to these things, and
thy ett hs hns n


(S)the others came back to either reading or writing.

M: So you had many different students all along.

S: Oh, yes, we'd keep on moving. You've got to move them.

M: Was this right from the start?

S: Oh yes.

M: Back in 1925?

S: Oh, when I was there, yes, 1925.

M: So this was....platoon system.....

S: Practicum school, yes, it was

M: Do you know when the platoon system started?

S: I don't know, I really don't know.

M: But it was there when you arrived?

S: It was there, yes. Well, they did it because there was so many

pupils--they didn't have any place to put them. See, we had 1500

pupils there. It was the largest school--Ibor--in Tampa. The

largest school. And so they had to do something. So

that was wonderful--departmental, see?

M: In essence then, there never was a time when you had one group of

students all day long?

S: Yes, I had one group while I was teaching reading, because that was

an hour-and-a-half,right there. Then when they went to the other

the others came. So I was always busy.

M: No, what I'm trying to find out is if it was like the traditional

way we do it in other parts of the state. In elementary school


J: usually all the students stay in that same classroom all day long;

'learn different subjects from the same teacher.

S: Oh, no no no. They went to different rooms. Oh no, they went to

different rooms for everything.

M: How many.....

S: And different teachers. Oh, they all had different teachers. And

then every six weeks, we had to put on an operetta in the


M: An operetta?

S: An operetta every six weeks, because we changed classes from the

x to the y -they were called "x" and "y" classes. And the "x"

changed to "y"; the "y" 's came in the morning then, or the "x"'s

came. It was just....

M: Morning and afternoon.

S: Yes. Oh, we were there till 3:00, yes.

M: Well, all students had to stay from-what? Eight o'clock to about

eight-thirty to about three o'clock?

S: Yeah, yes. I think the first six weeks after...the lower grades

went home a little early--I think at twelve o'clock, or something

like that. It was first at 1:15, or something like that. For

the first six weeks, that's all.

M: Well, what about this.....why did they make the morning and

afternoon division? Did they.....see I don't.....I'm not clear on



S: Because they had two classes; you had two classes. You had fifty

in one and fifty in another. You had....

M: Oh, one hundred students.

S: You were responsible for one hundred pupils.

M: Well, when you say that this...

S: On your rolls, you have all those names. Either you have one

class, which is the "x" class. All right, you have fifty. Then,

the "y" class is another fifty.

M: Uh huh. But those fifty students--say the "x" class--would be

there with you all morning?

S: No, not all morning.

M: No? But they would be at school all morning?

S: Oh, they'd be here all morning, yes.

M: And then they'd go home?

S: While I had one class, the other class was going to the different

departments every half-hour. See?

M: Oh. I think I understand.

S: You understand? Then the....

M: Let me see if I've got it.

S: ....the "x"'s come to my room; then I teach reading and numbers.

All right, then it's about ten-thirty--they change classes. The

"y"'s come to my room, and the "x"'s go to different rooms;

they have to go different places. So you have to have ...have to

show them.... you take lass. You see, like take them to the


(S) nature studies, special days. You have to take them to

music, special days. Then they have physical ed, special days.

They have teachers for one, teachers for the others.

M: Okay, I think I've got it. I'm going to repeat it to make sure

I've got this good. You were a homeroom teacher.

S: I was a homeroom.....I was in homeroom. Those were special teachers.

M: And those were special teachers.

S: That's right.

M: You would have, say, "x" class until about ten thirty.....

S: Yeah.

M: And during that time, you would teach them reading and arithmetic.

S: that's all.

M: Okay. At ten thirty, that "x" group would go .....

S: Then we changes classes. I'd take my class...

M: You would take that group?

S: I would take my group, oh yes. I would take my group, and the

other teacher nature

study or music, whatever--she brings them to me.

M: I see.

S: And I take mine to wherever they belong. So you'd have to know

where they were going, you see?

M: Right.

S: And every half-hour, they went to different classes.


M: Now this "x" group of students, at ten-thirty,would start going to

these other different things?

S: Yes, yes.

M: Nature studies, music, art, everything else.

S: Yes, yes. In the morning and afternoon. See, if they didn't go in

the morning, they went in the afternoon.

M: I see.

S: See, but you'd have to change classes again.

M: Well then, say, from ten-thirty.... let' see, the "x" group that

had now left....

S: See, we had lunch. We had lunch about eleven-thirty.

M: So, by now you'd be eating lunch with your "y" group.

S: Yes, yes.

M: Because your "x" would be gone.

S: Yes, they're gone. The other teacher would handle them.

M: Now, your "y" group would be inclass from about ten-thirty to

what time, with you.

S: Until lunch time.

M: And then what happens?

S: Then, at lunch time I take them to lunch.

M: Okay.

S: Then, after lunch they'd go somewhere else.

M: Oh, I see.

S: And the other group come to me.


M: "x" group would come back to you?

S: Yes, yes.

M: So you'd have "x" group most of the day.

S: No, the same amount of time.

M: Oh.

S: The same amount of time--the "x"'s and the "y"'s.

M: Well, if you had "x".....let's see now, if you had "x" group until

ten-thirty in the morning, and then you had "x" group again after

lunch, that seems like you're having "x" group most of the day.

Unless I missed something.

S: No, it was......maybe it was before 10:30. It mightivc been ten

o'clock, or something-a little earlier--I don't remember now,

it's been so long. Xt maybe it might've been a little earlier.

M: But the main thing was, you'd have "x" group the first half....

S: Yes, oh yes.

M: and then you'd have "Y"......

S: I'd have them morning, and then I'd have them again in the after-


M: Oh.

S: So they'd have their full time.

M: And what would you have to teach in the afternoon?

S: The same thing.

M: Oh, then you'd have the "y"s again.

S: hiat's with the other group. Yeah, I teach the same thing to the

other group.


M: Oh, now I understand.

S: I was just especially teaching reading, see?

M: Uh huh.

S: Reading and arithmetic.

M: But you were responsible for those one-hundred students.

S: Oh yes, oh yes.

M: Well, why....

S: Of course, in the meantime, when we had to make report cards, those

teachers had to give me the grades of the children's behavior in

their room.

M: But you had to fill out the report cards.

S: Oh, I had to.....

M: So you had to do the report cards. Okay.

S: And they'd just give you, if it was C, or whatever it was.

H: What were the responsibilities of you, asa Homeroom teacher?

I'd say, you're a homeroom te-cher...

S: Well, for the majority, I had to make a bunch of reports, and

everything, you know.

M: Lots of reports, report cards....

S: Oh yeah, lesson plans...

I: Lesson plans.

S: Well, of course for mine. Generally, for lesson plans we'd

have special teachers and they make the whole lesson plan. And

report cards, and well, keep the roll--you know, that's something

when you have to call it in the morning. See who's absent, or late


(S) or tardy--whatever it is.

M: Right.

S: See? And then....let's see, did we have to collect

money in those days? No, not in those days 'cause they had to bring

their lunch; we didn't have a lunchroom in those days. No, we didn't

have a lunchroom; they had to bring their lunch, and they ate out in

the yard, all they wanted. We didn't have to fool around with that


M: Can you give me a physical description of your classroom--your homeroom,

I think it was. It would be your homeroom and your classroom, wouldn't


S: Uh huh, yes.

M: Your classroom was your homeroom.

S: Yeah, my classroom was my homeroom.

M: Well, would art teachers and music teachers have homerooms too?

S: Oh yes, oh yes, oh they had their own.

M: Oh, everybody had their own room.

S: Oh, everybody had. The physical ed. side for the first

three grades, and the other side for the fourth, fifth and sixth. And

they had nature study and science, so they had a room for nature study

and one for science.

M: Now I understand.

S: They had special teachers for that.

M: And your room.....your specialty, of course, was music...


(S) Music for the first three grades, and music for the fourth, fifth

and sixth grades. See, it's different

And then the auditorium was the--we had two teachers in the auditorium.

Then they taught dramatics--all the operetta, whatever she was going to

have. And then one taught the dancing, and one played the piano.

M: Is that why they met in the auditorium?

S: Yes.

M: Because of the nature.....

S: Then classes went to the auditorium.

M: Why?

S: Because there was more room and they handled more classes in there.

M: Well, what were the other classrooms like? Were they big? Small?

S: Oh, no, all were large because....imagine--we had 1500 pupils there.

M: Uh huh.

S: So, it was.... large. The classes were all very large; very large classes.

It's so hard when teachers have fifty kids, oh.

M: Well, were there seats there?

S: Oh, we had seats, yes. We had little tables and little chairs. And the

teachers had desks.

M: Now, there's also the question of supplies. Boy, these might sound like

simple questions, but you wouldn't believe the stuff that I don't know

yet. And they don't tell you this in newspapers. There was some issue,

back in those days, about free text books. Students used to have to

cue up to buy their textbooks before every school year, at some store.


(M) I think the stores used to sell the textbooks? I don't know how this

worked. When you became a teacher, who.....

S: I don't know. When I became a teacher, the books were there.

M: The books were there. They were free. In other words, the students

didn't have to buy textbooks.

S: Of course, if a child lost a book he had to pay for it.

M: But he didn't have to originally buy it?

S: No.

M: Okay. He'd just have to bring the supplies--pencil, paper?
S: They paid a certain amount. I don't know whether this was at the beginning

or when. I don't remember quite at the beginning, but they had to pay a

certain amount. and then we supplied them with

pencils or whatever they needed. See, like materials and and

all that stuff. These are lower grades; now, the upper grades--they had

to buy their own things. But in this day, parents pay for the....

M: Speaking of parents, I want to ask a few questions here about parents.

S: Oh, they were wonderful.

M: Well, let me ask you a specific question. What kind of feedback did the

Latin parents give you about their problems, or their concerns, or their

opinions? How would they communicate with you, or did they communicate

with you?

S: Oh, they did. And I spoke Spanish so it was very nice. you know. And

some of the teachers were Italian, so they spoke Italian. And they were

very cooperative, very cooperative.

M: What did they have to cooperate about?


S: Well, anything you asked them to do--if we were going to have a little

play, or something like that, we had to get whatever.........

***********End of Side 1

S: We'd talk to them, you know, to see if we'd get into because

it was good for them. You know, shots are wonderful for children.

M: So, I don't understand.

S: Okay, they wouldn't argue, they'd want them.

M: You mean the parents had to have shots too? Or the parents.....

S: No, no, no, no. Just the children in school.

M: The parents still ?

S: You know now it's obligatory; you have to have those shots. Immunization.

M: You mean the parents......why do the parents want their children to have


S: They didn't want them to.

M: Why?

S: They were afraid.

M: You mean they didn't understand them.

S: No, see it those days, they didn't want it. So we had to just talk to the

children, and tell them we were going to have a little party

trying to get them....

M: Get them to rush out there (chuckle).

S: I told this little....once this little Italian girl....I said, "Tell your

Momma they'll give you a gold star; it's beautiful. You'll see how pretty


(S) it is." And she said--she came back the next morning, and said "Are

you going to get the shot?" She said, "My Momma said

(chuckle) It was so cute, oh it was so little, you

know, and it was darling.

M: When did what other ways did you need parents to cooperate

with you?

S: The what?

M: The parents to cooperate with you.

S: Oh, they were very willing, very, very.

M: But what did they have to do, in other words? LIke you needed them to

get the children to have shots.

S: Yes, that's one of the principle things, you know, because we wanted

to give them vaccination--all the different things, you know.

M: What else was important to have parents cooperate with?

S: Well, come to PTA nights, you know. We wanted to get them to come.

And through the children we tried to get them to come. We'd promise

things to the children. I would, I did. I used to say, "I'll give

you a party. We're going to have a nice party, and we're going

to have all kinds of pretty hats" and all that. And they'd try to come.

And I won, I won the badge many times because I asked them to come, you


M: The badge?

S: They gave you some kind of know, some kind of...

M: Oh, if you had the most parents?


S: Yeah, whoever had the most parents gets something. Ybu know, something--

I forgot what it was we used to get. We used to get something.

M: But a lot of parents would come to the PTA?

S: Yes, oh yes, they did.

M: Okay. What about....

S: I'll tell you, they were very cooperative, very, very.

M: Oh, I know--report cards. What if you wanted to see a parent about the

report card?

S: Oh you did. Send for them and they'd come.

M: The parents would come the school?

S: Yes, they'd come.

M: Okay.

S: They didn't have conference days like we have now. You see, now we

have a conference. But they used to come. You'd send for them, they'd

come. And anything the teacher said was done.

M: How do you mean that they didn't have conversation then like you do now?

S: They didn't have what?

M: You said that they didn't have a conversation then like they do....

S: No, "conference", "conference."

M: Oh, conferences like we do...

S: Now, we have conferences, you know. They come and you sit

parents and talk about their children. But those days they

didn't, but we'd send for them and they'd come. You know, any problem

we had, we'd talk to them and they were very willing to cooperate.

Very, very ---they were very nice. I always could say that about Ybor


(S) school. In those days they were wonderful.

M: There was just no...

S: It's not like now. Ugh.

M: We won't talk about that.

S: Right. We won't talk about that, no.(chuckle) I taught the black ones

three years. The little black ones--I taught them three years at Ybor.

M: What difference was there?

S: Oh, they were cute. The first grades are cute anyhow, I don't care what--

yellow, black, or what they are. They are cute, you know?

braids, you know the kind of braids that always came out

like they were And she said, "Oh, Miss Salas, will you

please comb my hair?" I said, "Oh, honey, I don't know how to comb that

hair. You better wait till you get home. Your Mother will fix it, she'll

fix your hair." So she did. And another thing,

I had with a little colored boy--a little black boy. I was talking to

the mother. She was right across my desk here. And here comes som e

little boy, just barely six years old. 'Comes and just hugs me, puts his

arms around me, just hugs me. I, for a minute I.....(chuckle) But

a child He was so sweet, he really was. A loving

child. So I tell you, the first grade is nice all over; it's always nice,

the first grade. I love the first grade.

M: Let me ask you this. If parents...If parents....I know, like for example,

a parent might want you to pass the kid on to the next grade or something.

S: Well, there's some like that, yeah. You always find some like that.

M: Or they wnt you to give the kid a better grade, or they might have some

beef, or they might want you to get a message or something.


S: I never had trouble like that.

M: How would they communicate with you then? Would they send a note with

their kids if they wanted you to do something, or what?

S: Oh, they'd come see me. They'd come.

M: They'd come?

S: Yes, they'd come. They'd come, and they'd speak to me in Spanish.

M: Did they ever use their children as messengers?

S: Yes, if they had to, yes--see, they worked. All of these people worked

at the factory, they worked at the factory, all of them worked at the

factory in those days.

M: Well, when could they find time to come see you?

S: Well, poor things, they didn't have the time, very much. They'd come

when you sent for them, they'd come. Then you'd get half of them come.

But see, they all worked. And those poor little things had to live at

home by themselves.

M: Did they have any way of taking care of them at home?

S: Well, sometimes the grandmothers took care, but some others' grandmothers

worked too, you know. In those days--those early days--everybody worked

in the factory. So these little tots had to.....I guess the older

brothers and sisters helped quite a bit, you know?

M: Okay. You may have answered this question. I want to know : how would

you communicate with the parents? You mentioned that you would send for


S: I sent for them.....or write them a note in Spanish; just write them a



M: Oh, in Spanish? You had an advantage there.

S: Oh yeah, I wrote them in Spanish.

M: You could speak Spanish.

S: Yeah, sure. So I wrote the note in Spanish, to tell them something.

M: How did this compare with the......

S: I'd pin it on to the little boy, little girl.

M: Oh, you'd pin it on?

S: I'd pin it on, yes. Because they're apt to lose it; some of the first

graders would lose it. So if I want something to go through, well, I just

pin it on, you know. And they'd answer.

M: What kinds of adult education offered through Ybor for the parents?

S: No, that was.....I don't think we had any adults.....or later on, way, way.

And that was for citizenships--to become citizens.

M: That would've been in the 1930's then?

S: Yeah, to become American citizens.

M: I recall that...

S: They had a man there, I think it was. They had the classes upstairs--see

the classroom were bigger, in the other building

M: Well, were there any night courses ....

S: Any what?

M: And kind of night courses in the 1920's?

S: I don't think so, not that early.

M: I used to read newspapers about night courses all the time.

S: Yeah, they had night courses but I think the night courses were for

people to become citizens--to become Americanized.


M: But that wasn't until 1930.

S: I think so.

M: Can you remember anything at all in the 1920's?

S: I don't remember. Of course, I know they had classes there at night.

I remember because there was an old, old man--he was one of the teachers--

I remember.

M: What was his name?

S: I don't remember.

M: You don't know.

S: No, I don't remember the name.

M: I was trying to recall....I remember Frank Crow.....

S: Oh, Mr. Crow was the principal.

M: Right.

S: He was the principal when Mr. Coleman died. He was the first principal

I had when I went there.

M: Crow was.

S: Mr. Coleman. No, Coleman.

M: Oh, Mr. Coleman.

S: Mr. Coleman. And we because he dragged us there. And when

he died, then Mr. Crow came in to substitute for him for just a short time.

But then Mr. Crow was transferred to another school. And then came Mr......

I think it was "McIntosh".

M: Right.

S: From Indiana. He was a retired principal from Indiana, I think it is.

M: That's right. That was in 1930's then.


S: Yeah.....was that 1930?

M: Yeah.

S: Mr. McIntosh was very strict (chuckle).

M: I understand Mr. Coleman was very strict too.

S: Oh yes, oh yes.

M: I think he wanted you to stand up and applaud or something?

S: He made you tremble, he made you tremble when he came in. Oh, you'd see

him coming, all the teachers would be scared to death. Oh yes. He had a

voice--a heavy voice--like it was.....Oh, I don't know, I got along fine

with him afterwards. It was just the first two years that were kind of


M: What was Mr. Crow like?

S: Mr. Crow was very quiet--easy, easy-going, very easy-going.

M: How did the school survive Mr. Coleman and Mr. Crow?

S: Fine, fine.

M:( Was there any change.....

S: But he.....I think everybody was afraid of Mr. Crow but they.....uh, Mr.

Coleman....but in the days when Mr. Coleman......When I came in,they were

just terrible. The kids were very disorderly, and they were too big for

their classes--for their grades. Because I know I had kids come in....

when I came in, in October, I had to take a fourth grade. I had to

substitute while I came in because they didn't have teachers. You couldn't

get teachers then.

M: You mean.....

S: When I came in 1925 you couldn't get teachers.


M: In 1925?

S: Oh, you couldn't get them. They were hard to get, the teachers.

So I had to go in and take care of those fourth graders.

M: You mean you couldn't get teachers county-wide, or just to get

them at Ybor?

S: You couldn't get them, you couldn't get them.

M: To go to Ybor?

S: Or anyplace. I don't think you could, it was near the Boom,

and money was just....

M: Money was what?

S: Well....

M: Lots of money?

S: A lot of money....the building, the building; everything was

going up.

M: So you didn't want to be a teacher?

S: This house was built in 1925.

M: I know.


M: It's a big house. It's incredible, I couldn't believe this


S: This house was built in 1925. It was on the sidewalk. 1925--

the same year I went to teach. And then after Mr. Coleman was

first strict, Mr. McIntosh was strict too, as a whole. Mr. McIntosh

came and he was on retirement. He was already retired from another

school so he was getting pension already, and then teaching


(S) here. And then came....who came next? Mr.....Shorty? Wilson?

M: Yeah, that's 1940.

S: Jerry Wilson. Oh, he was good. Jerry....and then came Gesus....

no Bisset--Mr. Bisset. Mr. Bisset....he shot himself. One night,

after he went home--some Friday night--and then Monday morning

when we went to school, the secretary found a letter....he had

shot himself

M: Going back to Coleman, you mentioned that things were disorganized,

there weren't too many teachers in those days, and.of course,

the classes had students that were too old for that class, and

the classes were crowded.

S: Yes.

M: When did this change?

S: Now when did it change, I don't know; I don't remember. When

did that change?

M: Under Crow or.....?

S: No, under was still going under Crow. And under

McIntosh too, I think.

M: You mean, these kinds of conditions?

S: Uh huh (affirmative).

M: It really didn't change before 1930, did it?

S: No, not before, not before because there were so many pupils--

too many pupils, we didn't have anyplace to put them. There

weren't enough schools.

M: And there weren't enough teachers.


S: And not enough teachers, we didn't have teachers.

M: Did you have enough books?

S: Somewhat. Not as many as we had later on, you know. Some, some

books, yes.

M: Well, there's.....I know the students had to have books...

S: Not too many of them; we didn't have too many.

M: Did you have enough to go around for all the students before

1930--especially teaching them Math and English.

S: I don't think there were enough books; I don't think there were

enough books. And the children was terrible. They used to tear

up the books, and oh...

M: The children used to abuse a lot of the property.

S: Oh yes, terrible, terrible. At first it was terrible. I didn't

want to stay in that grade. I told Mr. Coleman, I said, "I

don't want to stay, I don't want to stay, I don't want to stay.

I don't want fourth grade, I want first grade." So, I finally

got it. It was just about a month, a month after that another

teacher came in and she took over.

M: And you went back to first grade?

S: I went back to first grade.

M: But you had been teaching class all that time?

S: I'd been I didn'tchart, I taught first.

M: When did you teach chart?

S: I didn't teach chart, my friends taught chart.

M: Oh, you never taught chart.


S: I didn't teach it, no. If I did, I taught it maybe a month

or two, or so.

M: Oh.

S: A very short time.

M: But you seem to know a lot about it.

S: Oh, well sure, because I was right there.

M: Uh huh, they were teaching it in the next room.

S: Yeah.

M: Okay. Now, let's see what we have......teachers. What kind of

criteria were used in selecting teachers to work and be at Ybor?

I noticed that teachers were always being hired, and sent here

and sent there. What basis, then, did they use to send a teacher

to a predominantly Latin school?

S: But at Ybor. We needed them. We needed those

teachers there, because there were so many pupils. You had to...

you had to have them hired. You couldn't move from there.

I'm afraid so.

M: But what.....when a teacher.....Well, perhaps you can tell me.

How were you hired in those days? Were you hired as a teacher,

without knowing where you would teach?

S: Yes. That's the way I was hired. They just needed teachers

and they hired me.

M: They didn't tell you where you were going to teach, though.

S: No, no.

M: I see.


S: We didn't even know what.

M: And then you'd find out.

S: They didn't find out, you see., That's why they put me in the

fourth grade. I didn't want fourth grade.

M: Why did they send you to Ybor? Why not Henderson?

S: Because they needed it, they needed it at that school. They

didn't have enough teachers there, and there were so many

pupils. It was overflowing.

M: Uh huh. So whoever was there, they took them and sent them to


S: Yeah, oh yeah.

M: They didn't care if they could speak Spanish, or what.

S: The majority....a lot of teachers spoke Spanish, there.

M: A lot of teachers did?

S: A great number, yes. The Garcia girls were there and.....who

else was there?

M: The Wolfs....did you ever meet you know the Wolfs?

S: Wall? Oh, yeah, Claira Wall

M: Glara Wohl,,,,,Sara Wohl, Lisa Wohl?

S: Now, Sara didn't work....Clara was the one. Clara was like a

assistant to Mr. Coleman. She went around with him, like an

assistant principal. Oh, she was strict. That's why he wanted

her with him because she was strict.

M: But her sister, Sara, was teaching there too?

S: Yes, I think Sara was teaching there. Right, Sara.


S: And her husband.

M: And there was....wasn't there an Elizabeth Wohl? Yes, Lizzie

Wohl, Lizzie Wohl.

S: Lizzie, yeah. But I don't think she was there. I don't think

she was.

M: No., she wasn't. She stoppedaout 1920, as I recall.

S: Yeah, she was there. She married their brother. He was a

paper man--bags......Richardson, Richardson--She's Mrs. Richardson;

she's a widow.

M: Okay. What special steps were taken to prepare non-Latin teachers

to handle Latin school assignments. In other words,....

S: They didn't know. (chuckle) Those American teachers?

M: Yds.

S: They didn't understand the kids at all.

M: Well, what happened to these American teachers when they went there--

kids are talking in Spanish, and everybody's whooping it up,

and you had a hundred kids.....

S: Well, they'd ask you, "What are they saying?"

M: They'd depend on you.

S: Yeah.

M: About what percentage of the teachers were American?

S: Oh, more than Latins, more than Latins.

M: But there were a lot of Latin teachers there.

S: Oh yes. We had quite a number of Latin teachers.

M: Let's see, the Wohl's were...the Wohl's...

S: No, the Wohl's were Jewish.

M: Right, they were...


S: But they knew Spanish.

M: How'd they know....

S: Because they lived in Ybor City.

M: Oh.

S: Yeah, they lived in Ybor City.

M: They knew the culture pretty well.

S: Ah, yes. Yes, they knew Spanish because they lived in Ybor

City. See, their father had a store out in Ybor City.

M: Uh huh. Restaurant equipment like that.

S: Well, that's what they have now, but before they just had little...

like...little toys, and those things like that. The old people--

I knew the old people, their parents.

M: Well, how....what happened to these people--these teachers who

didn't speak Spanish and didn't understand it?

S: Well, they did the best they could. They even translated their

names in English. "Jesus", you know, is a very common word in

Spanish, "Jesus". But they'd call them Jesus (gee-sus).(Chuckle)

M: What other names did they translate? What about Jose? Joe?

S: Oh, Joe. Well, that was all right, that was all right. But

these other things, they.....oh, they had....they could tell you

a lot of things that happened, you know? Because they didn't

know the language. But they still remember them, you know that?

They still remember. Many things the children used to say--

they didn't know what they were saying. But they did the best

they could. I guess, maybe they learned quite a bit like that.

M: How long would a teacher last at Ybor, under those circumstances?


S: I don't know. They kept on changing around quite often.

M: There was a high turnover?

S: They used to come, they used to come from Virginia and Georgia.

We had teachers coming in constantly.

M: What about the local teachers?

S: We had 45 teachers, I think.

M: Really?

S: Yes, we had about 45 teachers. That was the biggest school n

Tampa....Ybor. Ybor He was a


M: Right.

S: That gave...that donated that building.

M: I have another question, to try to show an example....

S: That church--he built it so his daughter could be married there.

M: What church?

S: It was before--not the church we have there now. ?

M: Our Lady of Mercy.

S: Perpetual Help.

M: Yes.

S: Well, it was Our Lady of Mercy then, before, because he donated

the place there to build the church. And he built the church

so his daughter could get married. I think she was his


M: Yeah.

S: Yes. And then they took it down after many years and they

built something else.


M: Why did he have to build a church so his daughter could...

S: Because it was the only place to get married.

M: There was no other church?

S: No, there was no other church here. It was the first church.


M: What about Our Sacred Heart?

S: Oh, that was downtown.

M: Oh, I see.

S: Oh, that was downtown.

M: But you couldn't go downtown to get married?

S: Oh you could, I imagine. But he owned....his property--his

business--was in Ybor City and There was a

big factory--you should've seen it--over there. On 14th Street,

there; that great big building there?

M: Yes.

S: That was his factory. It was a great big building. And

naturally, he wanted values to go up in Ybor City, so he

built a church.

M: I never knew that. I heard that she had....

S: Yeah, Our Lady of Mercy.

M: His widow had donated land, or something.

S: Yes, I met the lady--I used to know her, she

was a friend of ours, my sister and my mother.

M; Okay. Oh, I'm curious about this. Were.,... most of the

teachers, then, were from out of--they weren't native Tampans?


S: No, no, very few. Very few were natives.

M: And why did they come to Tampa?

S: I guess they heard they needed teachers--that they needed

teachers here--so that's why they came.

M: So a lot of people just came down here to teach.

S: That's right.

M: And how said they wouldn't last very long.

S: Well, some did, some did.

M: I guess I'm trying to find out, is if the native Tampans

stuck it out better than the non-natives.

S: Oh yes, because we lived here--all had our homes here. And

as they left, why, more of the natives....

M: Settled in.

S: From Tampa, yeah.

M: Okay. Could it be, too, that possibly there weren't enough

native Tampan teachers to go around anyway? You had to get

other teachers?

S: That's right.

M: That's it.

S: That's right.

M: That's right.

S: It was during the Boom....the Boom.....building....there was a

lot of money.

M: So there was just...


S: So people came here. They knew there was a Boom here and

they came.

M: And they needed more teachers.

S: Sure. I'll tell you, they needed about 45 or 50 at Ybor.

M: But this would be....yeah, '25, 1925.

S: Yeah, 1925, during the Boom.

M: It's hard to believe. Forty-five teachers is a lot of teachers...

S: It was a lot of teachers, but believe me, but we had them there.

That place was something. It was full of people--1500 pupils

in that small building. You know that small building? Well,

it's the one in front You've seen the

two buildings?

M: Yes, yes.

S: Well, that's it.

M: Which one was built first, the one south or north? I know there's


S: I don't remember. But, did you read the...

M: Description?

S: Description there, that has the Board Members--Trustees, trustees.

You read it, it's there and it tells you the year. So you can

find out; I don't know exactly, I don't remember.

M: Okay.

S: It's been a long time. I retired, already eight years ago, or


M: I really surprised to hear you were still with us (chuckle).


M: Okay.

S: And I retired on account of all those....students.

M: You shouldn't go on teaching forever.

S: Hm?

M: You shouldn't go on teaching forever.

S: No, that's true.

M: Retire eventually....relax and enjoy life.

S: No, I'm glad, I'm glad I did. I didn't like it at first when

I retired. I felt kind of funny since I had been there so

long, you know. But afterwards, I'm glad.

M: I want to know something. I'd like to know more about the

young teachers who--well, you were a young teacher,yourself,


S: Yeah.

M: You were...what? Thirty-years old when you started teaching?

S: No, before that. I was younger than that.

M: Well, because you started in 1925...

S: Yeah.

M: Oh yeah, you were only 25 years old. The other teachers--the

local teachers, not the ones from out-of-state, but the local

Tampans--did they sort of stick together, and do things together?

Did you have special entertainments and....

S: Well, we had the Tampa Teachers' Club.

M: Uh huh.

S: That we had. Like we have now the "Classroom Teachers"? Well,


(S) we had the Tampa Teachers' Club. And they had a little....

they'd lend you money. They had a little....where you could

borrow money--$50--if you wanted to go on a trip or something...

a vacation, you know. They'd do that. You had to become a

member of the Tampa Teachers' Club and

over there, Tampa areaclub.

M: Okay. Now, what am I supposed to be talking about?

S: Oh, we used to go to the Recreation Departmentl We used to

meet there for physical ed., and the teachers knew

dances and different things there. Miss Trunk was there,

and she used to teach us. Of course, we had supervisors who

came in,too,with the music. Our supervisor's still living--

Miss Stump.

M: Miss Stump?

S: Miss Stump. She's.....she used to be our supervisor. She's

quite old now, but she still goes to the retired teachers'

meeting. I see her every once in awhile. She had an operation

on her eye, and of course, she's not well now.

M: Okay. Considering the fact that you were teaching Latins--

Latin pupils. What were the Latin pupils most serious Latin....

I'm sorry. What were the most serious handicaps--learning

handicaps? What were the most serious learning handicaps?

S: Oh, the pronouncing, like....a lot would say"tchuze" "tchuze"

for"shoes". They'd go "tchu---ze", you know. Because they'd

go "tchuse". And different words like that, they'd mispronounce.


M: Pronunciation was a handicap.

S: So that's why you had to use that chart so much, you know.

Repeat, and repeat before they came into first grade.

M: Uh huh. And in the first grade, what did you want them to

learn, that they had difficulty doing? Or, like reading

and math--things like that. What was the worst problem there?

When you had them in the classroom?

S: Reading?

M: Well, you only taught reading and math, I think.

S: Well, then you....they had to learn the meaning of the words,

too, you know. That's another thing they had to learn before

they could read. Of course, they read out loud. In the first

grade, you know,, they read out loud, they don't read silently.

but they

can't do it. They have to hear themselves, you know. That's


M: Oh, you mean they have to be reading out loud.

S: Yes, they have to read out loud. So you can imagine the noise

going on.

M: Yu mean all the Latin students would be sitting there at once

reading to themselves out loud.

S: Yeah, they couldn't read it silently, you see, with their eyes.

I said, "Read with your eyes, start to read with your eyes."

But they couldn't do it.

M: And would you ever have a second....


S: But they finally did, towards the end, you know, really. Sure,

it takes time--years, you know.

M: Uh huh. Well, how would you teach Math to them?

S: And then the.....

M: How would you teach Math?

S: Numbers?

M: Yeah, numbers.

S: Oh, I .....I told the numbers, I said the numbers. I put them

on the board. Oh I had...if I was going to show number two, well

I showed two things."Two, two. Now show me something else that's

two." Different things--objects, you had to teach, see? Everything

was for objects, mostly.

M: And you'd show cards.

S: Yeah. Now that's in the early beginning; you had to do that

because they And for the combinations, the same

way; you had to. .Everything, everything.

M: Combinations was two and two, four and five--addition.

S: Yeah, this is combinations.

M: You had to learn a certain number of combinations, I think, each

year. Forty-five the first year.

S: Yes, yes. It goes for certain....just a ......small.

M: Okay. And what....

S: We had a book--what do you call it?--to go by, you know.

M: A syllabus?

S: Yeah, something like that.


M: Did they call it?

S: Yes, a syllabus, or how much you had to teach in the first


M: Or a primer? I'm trying to remember what they call that. A

Study Aid.

S: A Study Aid, that's it. It's what you have to teach

in the first grade, second grade, see? And so on.

M: Okay. Then one handicap that they had, then, was pronunciation.

S: That's it. The "tchu", the "tchu", they'd say the "tchu".

M: What about the fact that they spoke Spanish, and were trying to

learn English? How would that interfere with their .....

S: Well, sure, that interferred quite a bit. As the years went

by, the parents weren't interested.

M: But in these first two or three years...

S: That was hard, that was hard, that was the hardest part. The

rest, no, because the parents had already been in school, see?

And it was a different generation. But when I went in, oh, that

was hard.

M: How hard?

S: Oh, very hard.

M: What was happening in the classroom, with the students? How

did they react to this problem of trying to learn English, and

they couldn't speak it?

S: Well, they tried. They tried very hard. Really, they tried,

they tried their best to do it. And they'd repeat after you,


(S) you know? And they tried to do it. No, they did; they did

their best.

M: Did you have a system....

S: And taught little songs. They taught little songs, and they

knew the songs, and they did fine. They improved as the yrs

went by.

M: You mean little English songs, or folk songs?

S: Well yes, oh yeah. Their nature study....their music teacher

taught them songs.

M: And I think she had a course of study, too, for that.

S: Oh yes, oh yes.

M: Everything was by the course of study.

S: Oh yes, oh yes.

M: Okay.

S: They had to...we had to teach a certain amount--a certain number

of things.

M: Did you have to submit a weekly study plan?

S: Oh yeah, we had to make our weekly plan, oh yes. Every teachers

had a lesson plan.

M: Coleman had to approve it, I think.

S: Yes. Oh, we had to hand it in. Sometimes he didn't like it,

and he's send it back.

M: Why would he send it back?

S: Well, if he didn't approve of it....I never did get it back.

M: Oh, you were lucky.


S: So I was lucky (chuckle). But some principals do; they'll get

on you.

M: Mr. Crow--did he have that system?

S: No, he was good; he was very easy.

M: Well then, what would you have to submit to Mr. Crow?

S: Oh, no we always had to hand in lesson plan.

M: Always had to have weekly.....

S: Oh yes, to this day you have to do it. Oh yes, you have to have

your lesson plan because suppose you're out, and the substitute

comes in. She doesn't know what you're doing. So, we had the

lesson plan. You could tell her what page you were teaching in

reading, and your numbers, what you're doing. You had to put

down everything. See? And when the children go--what time. You

the hour they go to their special classes, so that she'd know.

I even had a little crippled girl. She'd had polio when she was

little. And she came to school when she was...before six. And

she couldn't walk from one place to another. So the principal,

Mr. Coleman, didn't want her there. And I said, 'Mr. Coleman,

I'll take:her from class to class. I mean, I'll give her to the

teacher, I'll take her to the teacher; hand her over to the other

teacher. See? And let's help her, because she's so eager to

learn. The poor little thing." To this day she's going around,

walking, you know. She had polio, and I'm so glad that she got

to go to school because she liked it.

M: Yeah.

S: But he didn't want her. He said, "No, it's going to be too much


(S) trouble." I said, "No it isn't, no it isn't, let's have her."

So we did.

M: Mr. Coleman didn't want her to go to school because of that?

S: No, he didn't want her because she was too much trouble. He

says, "There are too many children, and we'll have to take her

from one room to another." She couldn't walk very well.

But, in those days they didn't have the

in-bound teachers or out-bound teachers--what is it?

M: Out-bound.

S: Out-bound teachers. But later on we had that. She could've

been there. But in those days they didn't have it. See, the

out-bound teacher is very good because it helps the child. If

any child is sick, well we ask for an out-bound teacher to visit

the child and help.....studies. If the child could do the work,

you know.

M: Uh huh.

S: While she's at home. She might 've been at the home for know, a sickness for a long duration.

M: But in those first two or three years you didn't have any of


S: Oh no, no. In those first years we didn't have any.

M: Well, what would happen to children who got sick, or who had

an emotional problem?

S: Well, they just stayed home until they got well, and then came

back to school. There was nothing else to do.


M: Now, were there any programs originated specifically for Latins,

at the school?

S: Well, that's the chart classes.

M: The chart classes.

S: Yeah, the chart classes were very good.

M: And the platoon system, I guess, too.

S: Well, the platoon system was....that was handled on account of

the number of pupils--we had so many pupils.

M: Regardless of nationality or what.

S: Yeah, it doesn't matter.

M: Okay.

S: But they went to all these different rooms. They needed it

when they had physical ed. They had to learn physical ed., they

had to learn music, they had the nature studies. "Where you going

now?" "I'm going to nature studies." And you'd tell them, and

they'd repeat that. "Auditorium." They'd know how to say

"auditorium", and they'd go to different places like that. See?

They learned all those.. Their vocabulary was enriched.

I think by means of this type of school.

M: Well, also, the platoon system had.....I understand in later

years it had vocational courses, or something. They had junior-

high school type courses at the elementary level, only at Ybor.

Someone told me--oh, Shorty Wilson told me this. But, of course,

he might have confused it.

S: I don't know.


M: He might have...

S: Unless they were at night.

M: Yeah.

S: You mean they were at night?

M: No, during the day time. He said the platoon system--part of the

platoon system had...

S: And see, he was teaching.....when we had the platoon system, he was

teaching there. He was a teacher.

M: He was?

S: Yeah. Shorty? Yeah, Shorty was a teacher with me--he and his wife,


M: And his wife?

S: He and his wife, yes. She had graduated from Tallahassee and they

got married. They were courting each other (chuckle)....It was

funny because they were courting--he used to send little notes to

her, you know? And Mr. Coleman, Mr. McIntosh; he was

with McIntosh...Mr. McIntosh was old-fashioned, you know? And he

caught one of those notes one day, and oh dear.

M: What happened?

S: Well, he got very provoked about it...

*************************** END OF TAPE ONE

S: ....upper grades, see? The fourth and the fifth?

M: Uh huh.

S: He taught that. His wife was teaching home-ec. We had home-ec.

there too. See, all the costumes for the plays, for the operettas?


M: Uh huh.

S: Were made by the home-ec. teacher.

M: How did his wife handle.....did his wife have the Latin kids cook...

S: Yes.

M: cook food in the home-ec.?

S: Yeah. I don't know what they cooked. I imagine she tried some

Spanish dishes--I don't know.

M: Okay.

S: But they made....the children made their clothes there--they

learned how to sew. And they made little dresses.

M: I bet that was really useful for them.

S: Yes, very. It was very fine. I thought it was a very good thing.

Yes, it was very good.

M: Uh, let's see now.

S: She just retired last year....Dot.

M: His wife?

S: His wife just retired last year. He's retired quite a number of

years, though,'cause he's doing something else--insurance, or

something, he's selling.

M: Now....

S: Oh, we had carnivals too. We had great carnivals during Mr. Bishop

and Mr......and Jerry Wilson's time. We had these carnivals at the

state park. And we used to have, on Halloween night, we had to go

there. All the teachers had to work. So we didn't go home.

M: You had a had a Halloween carnival once a year?


S: The teachers. Yeah, before school had a carnival.

M: The teachers did.

S: And the parents donated the cakes and the different things, or they

came to help. They'd make which is Spanish, like a


M: Yeah.

S: And they used to come to help us lots.

M: Did they have other Spanish-type foods there that night?

S: Yes, sometimes they had sausages or different things, different


M: Torlittos?

S: Torlittos, yes. Torlittos, yes. Yes, they were good.

M: Can you describe one of these Halloween things to me--festivals--

to me in detail? What kinds of things happened, what kind of games

you had? Whether you were selling things....

S: We had the grab-bag....what else did we have? See, I was busy in

my booth, so I'd just stick to my booth.

M: Who managed th ibths?

S: We did.

M: The teachers.

S: But then the principal would come around and collect the money, see?

M: Oh, you were selling stuff.

S: Oh yeah. We were selling....oh, we were selling candy apples or

sandwiches or....what else did we do? I forgot what elseNdid. We

had so many nights....we had to go there in the pouring-down rain


(S) and we had to get out of the rain. I t was just pouring down,

all wet.

M: The days of a teacher.

S: Boy, those were the days, believe me. We'd dread those carnivals.

M: You had a carnival even back in the 20's, during the first two or

three years?

S: No, not in the beginning, we didn't. Oh no, this was later on

during Mr. Bishop and Mr. Wilson.

M: So that wasn't until 1940?

S: Well yeah, yes.

M: So....

S: Not before that, no we didn't have anything like that.

M: Well, what did you have before that?

S: I don't remember having anything.

M: Nothing. Well, why did they start having carnivals?

S: They made money.

M: Oh, that's a good reason. Well, the kids really liked it, too, I


S: Oh, the kids loved it, yes. And we had a king and queen. That was

the idea to....the parents sold tickets and the one who sold the

most tickets, the child was the reigning king or reigning queen,

see? And I had the queen, many times, in my room. I had the king,

too. I sold a lot of tickets to the parents in those days. Oh yes.

You can ask Mr. Wilson--Jerry--oh boy. And we'd wear costumes,

you know. And there was the crowning with a beautiful crown and...


M: That wasn't the....

S: It was King Bart.

M: But that was Halloween.

S: Halloween.

M: Because don't the Latins....

S: No, no, that's something else. No, this was a Halloween party,

a Halloween carnival. That's only for children.

M: Okay.

S: So this is something else you're talking about--the Latin Fiesta.

No, that's for grownups, for adults. That's what takes place down

at the

M: The Latin Festival for adults?

S: Yeah, the Latin Festival, yeah.. That's for grownups, that's not

for little children.

M: What did I.....what was that about? I didn't understand.

S: Well there is....don't you know, they're going to crown a king and

queen of the Latin Festival?

M: No, I never heard of it.

S: Well, that's going to be pretty soon here

Homer Hessley.

M: Oh, how long has this been going on?

S: Homer Hessley. There are five girls running for queen now and the

different organizations put them up: Chamber of Commerce, and

different organizations.

M; How many years has that been going on?


S: Huh?

M: How many years...

S: Oh, that's been going for quite a number of years. In fact, the

man which originated it died--Mr. Wheeler. No, Cassine...Leo

Cassine. He died not very long ago. and they claim...

and they travelled to Europe after awhile.

M: Well, how many years....did that go back into the 20's too? I'm

curious to know if that was a major thing...

S: No, no no. Not that no.

M: Okay.

S: Nor carnivals either. The carnivals got started with Bishop and...

M: Shorty Wilson.

S: and Shorty.

M: Okay, so back the 1920's--the first two or three years you started--

there was no carnival.

S: No.

M: Was there anything for Christmas?

S: Well, we had something going on in the auditorium, and invited the


M: Did the parents come?

S: We had a pageant. We had a pageant or something, you know? Some

Christmas..yes, they came. They ere invited and they came.

M: And how many months would school last? It would start in September

and go through...

S: the way we had to donate time because they


(S) didn't have money, and they ran out of money later on. The Boom

passed.They ran out of money, and we worked for only seven and a

half months, and donated the rest.

M: But school, back in 1925,...

S: No, in those days, it was very.....we didn't have to do anything

like that. But later on...'

M: But when did school let out each year? Back in the 20's.

S: Nine months, nine months.

M: It was nine months even then? Oh, because I know I'm still a little

confused in my mind. I've been seeing so many figures. At one

point it was, like four months, then went to six, then seven, then


S: Not when I was there.

M: This was starting back in 1890, and working right up. (chuckle)

S: Oh yes. (chuckle)

M: I'm still not sure what it was like. there

was a full nine-month term in 1925?

S: Yeah, a full nine-month term. Except when later on, when they

didn't have money, and then the school would be.....You know, for

the children's sake, we'd donate our time free, without pay, you


M: Well, how would you manage to....

S: Twice we did that.

M: 9 you have to eat, you have to have money to...

S; I know but we did it.


M: I don't.....

S: Well, we did it. Twice we did it. Now, they wouldn't do it now,

I'm sure. But we did it,twice we did.

M: Were there any special plays during the yea in those}lays? This

is still in the early days. Were there any special plays? I

know you said for Christmas there was a play.

S: Yeah.

M: How about Easter?

S: And then Easter, I mean, they usually had something.

M: Did they often have assemblies, back in the first two or three years?

S: No, I don't remember any assemblies .ijn those days.

M: Okay.

S: Mrs. Ingram was in charge then. You know, her son is a doctor now--

Dr. Ingram. And she used to bring him to school then, when he was

a little boy. We used to call him "Sonny". And now he's a doctor

teaching at the University of South Florida.

M: And she was....

S: She was a....she's still living. Her mother died the other day,

and she was ninety....ninety years, I think she was. She just died.

And Mrs. Ingram, she's very good at that--at the auditorium--very

good. She's still living.

M: Back in the 20's?

S: Yeah,s he went in the same time did.

M: Well, what was she....what was she....

S: She was the auditorium teacher. She taught them plays.


M: Oh, right.

S: Every six weeks she taught a new play. Whether it was an operetta,

or whatever it was.

M: And who would present the play every six weeks? The fourth graders?

S: Well, the fourth, fifth and sixth. She teaches from the fourth

through the sixth. Now these classes would come in there at certain

times, and she'd teach children in those classes, see?

M:' When the Latins had their own holidays at home, would they do any

celebrating at the school?

S: Well, you know...what's that--the feast that the Catholics celebrate--

St. Joseph's, I think. Where they have this know, this

altar that they have. And they have all kinds of good things to

eat? Well we were invited,several times, to different homes like


M: You mean individually, as teachers?

S: Yes. We were invited. If we knew the parents, then they would

invite us and we would go in. They had lovely things to eat, oh,


M: Did they ever make home visits, some of the other teachers?

S: Yes.

M: Back in those days.

S: When, we had to. Yes, when we had to.

M: In the first two or three years.....

S: They wanted us to do that--to make home visits, yes.

MN The principal wanted you to?


S: Yes.

M: Because ou said "they". I want to be sure it was....

S: Yes, the principals. I don't know if it went that far back, but

I know we had to visit the homes. I don't know if it went that

far back I don't think so. It was

later on, it was later on, I think....

M: You didn't have to do it in those days. Okay.

S: that they wanted us...It was a time when they told us they

wanted us to visit the homes.

M: Okay. What habits or practices of the Latin peoples did you try

to change for the school, when they got to school? What kind....

were there any habits or practices that you can recall, specially

in those days, that you had to change or modify or correct?

S: Well, one of the things was that the parents were over-protective

of the children, you know. Now for instance, in the first grade

we'd like the children to get in line, and we'd be timed downstairs,

and bring them upstairs, see? Now, they wouldn't leave the children.

They'd start kissing them and kissing them, you know?

M: You mean at the beginning of the day?

S: Yes,Xin the morning, you know, when they'd come to school.

M: Oh, you mean they'd bring the children over with them?

S: Oh, yes, they'd come with the children.

M: But didn't any of the children go by themselves?

S: No, not the lower grades. Oh no, they'd hold their hand and bring

them to school. Put them out there on the sidewalk, and they'd


(S) wait there with the teachers. The teacher was there to be....

well, we'd take the children up, yoknow? Would say, "Go on,

you can go home now. It's all right, you can leave the children,

we'll bring them up." Those parents sometimes would come right


M: Would they be waiting for them after school?

S: Oh yes, they'd come after school to bring the children. All the

parents would be there.

M: But didn't they have to work?

S: Do you know that I had a parent that wouldn't leave. her grown

child--she was almost nine months in that school. She'd spend the

time in the lunch room while her child was in my room. And she

didn't have to do that because the child was lovely. The child was

lovely, really.

M: But that would be later when....

S: That was the mother. Yeah, that was in Wilson's time, because

Mr. Wilson didn't want her to be around there. And he told her.

But I told her, "You know, Mr. Wilson doesn't want you to be around

here." But she said, "But you know my little girl

." The little girl was perfectly all right. There was

nothing wrong with her; it was her mother.

M: The mother wanted the child....

S: The mother wanted to be there with her. So one day the father came,

and he says, "Listen, she's going to go home now this time and stay

home." So he says......he took the little girl, brought her to me


(S) and said, "Miss Salas, she's all yours." So I took her; the child

didn't say a word. She was a good little dancer. Oh, she danced

beautifully. She had the costumes of.....the Brazilian--the one

who had the flowers, the fruits on her head--what's her name? I've

forgotten what her name is now. I can't think of her. But I don't

know, it was that Brazilian that did the dance, you know?

M: No.

S: You never heard of her?

M: No.

S: Very famous. Ah, I can't think of her name But she had

the costume because she had gone to Hollywood to try out. The

child was only six years old, and she danced beautifully. But

there was nothing wrong with the child; it was her mother.

M: So one of the problems was that the parents were sometimes too over-


S: Right.

M: What were some of the other things that you had to watch out for or


S: Well, about the immunizations.

M: They didn't like getting shots.

S: No, they didn't want them. That was too important, we thought.

M: What about any English problems? Did they try to speak English,

or would they talk to you in Spanish or something?

S: They tried. They tried but they didn't know it. They were so busy

working, you know, trying to earn a living,that they didn't have time


(S) to study English.

M: Oh, the parents.

S: The parents, yes. They didn't have time.

M: No, but the children themselves.

S: Oh, the children. Well, the children learned. Oh, the children

learned, yes. They were good. Yes, the children did well.

M: Were there any restrictions about speaking Spanish in the classroom,

or in the hallways, then?

S: Well, we tried to keep them from doing that speak

English .We tried to do that, yes.

M: Okay.

S: Because too much Spanish and they'd never learn, you know?

M: But, I wondered. I understood that sometimes they would have a

policy that you can't speak English--no, you can't speak Spanish--

here. And you could be sent to the principal's office if you spoke

any Spanish.

S: That must have been later on, you know, or maybe....a time and place.

I don't think....I didn't have any....didn't talk to the children in


M: There was a library in school, wasn't there?

S: A what? Pardon?

M: A library at school.

S: Oh yes. That's another thing we had.

M: I'm talking about the O now.

S: Ti huh. Affirmative)


M: Okay.

S: Oh, a library then.

M: Uh huh. In the first years that you were there, did you have any

kind of a library?

S: I don't think that we had a library then. I don't remember. But

I think.....I'm sure we did. We did, because at the

library too.

M: Uh huh. The children didn't have a period to go to class?

S: Oh yes, the library.

M: And what kind of library was it? Was it big, long....

S: It wasn't very large, it was.....later on we had we had a very

wonderful one.

M: But the earlier years....

S: The earlier yearsjt was starting.

M: Do you know what kind of books were in it?

S: No, I don't.

M: Did you use the library ?

S: I didn't.

M: Okay.

S: N I didn't.

M: Well, of course, you didn't have a library period.

S: No, no I didn't have a library period, no. But now, later on they

had slides and everything. The library was very good. We had a

beautiful library Ybor Beautiful. Beautiful

tables--round tables--you know. Oh, we had......and good books,

encyclopedias and good dictionaries and good things. I don't know


(S) what they did with all those things. And TV's and everything,

they had. You should've seen it later on; it had a TV, you know,

and a phonograph or a.....

M: All kinds of things like that.

S: Yeah. In those days it was a phonograph because we didn't have

anything else (chuckle). But Mr. Wilson sold it. We got.....each

teacher got hers.He was very good abou having each teacher have

her clock in her room, and everything, you know? He was good.

M: How about Mr.Crow? Did he try to help you get things for the


S: Mr. Crow was never around. He was just\after Mr. Poe was there.

M: Uh uh. Well, who was....well, still, Mr. Crow was there during the...

S: A very short time.

M: A very short time?

S: I don't think it was very long.

M: Two or three years?

S: He was at the junior high after that.

M: Uh huh, he was.

S: Yeah, I think he was at the junior high. And there was one teacher,

especially,.....she liked him very much. It was Miss Frese--Helen

Frese--Helen. She's sick now, poor thing.

M: She didn't like him very much you said?

S: She liked him very much. In fact, she asked to be transferred when

he left.

M: Did she get her transfer?


S: She got her transfer. She's......she had a stroke not so long


M: Of course, that was a long time ago.

S: She's eighty....eighty years old.

M: How did most teachers feel about the principals in those days?

Let's see.....Coleman, Crow. They'd be the only two principals

before 19

S: In those days, yeah. Coleman was very strict, he scared you.

M: What did the teachers do about that? Did you talk among yourselves

about it?

S: (chuckle) We did. We saw him coming, we heard him coming....

everybody got...

M: Were you afraid for your jobs, or just afraid of him?

S: Well, I'll tell you. When I interviewed for my job...

M: Oh, you had to interview him?

S: Yes. This friend of mine told me, she said, "They need teachers

at Ybor. Would you like to teach?" I wasn't doing anything at the

time. She said, "Would you like to teach?" I said, "Well, I don't

know. I have to do something; I don't know what I'm going to do."

So she said, "Well, suppose you go. Let's take you over there

tonight." She knew him very well. So I took her over there, and

the first thing he asked me: what was my religion? I said, "Well,

I'm a Catholic." And he said, "You know, I hate Catholics." Just

like that. He said, "I hate Catholics." So I had it against me.

So.....but he hired me.


M: Why did he hire you?

S: Imagine. Well, they needed teachers; they needed me. He had

to have somebody.

M: He says he hates Catholics

S: So, he sent me to the supervising principal, which was a lady,

Miss French. So I went to see her, and she said......she hired me.

She asked me a few questions and she says, "You report at Ybor

tomorrow, and you'll have a salary of $85 a month." Which was big

money then. I came home and I told Momma. I said, "Momma, they're

going to give me $85 a month, can you imagine? $85 a month." Oh,

I thought it was a great sum of money. So, I went backJ, VC'I jLJ-tl

the next morning, and he took me to the classrooms, to the fourth

graders I didn't like. And he took me up there. He said, "Well,

you....." I said, "Well, I want the first grade." He said, "Well,

I'll give it you as soon as I have it. But right now I don't have it."

So, in a short time he But afterwards, he liked me.

We got along fine. Yes, we got along beautifully. Yes. There was

another girl there who was a Catholic too. 'Was Felita; her name

was Felita. Now her new name is Anila. She's married a druggist.

And she was there. And I'll tell you, she was his right hand. Because

she did the.....she did it well.

M: How do you mean? She did what?

S: Well, you know, you can' can't spank children. But he took

her along.

M: And she would spank them?


S: And she was very, very good. Very good.

M: You can't spank? I thought they allowed corporal punishment in those


S: No, they didn't for a long time, they didn't. Now they do. I think

they do now, if you're....Always in front of a teacher or a principal.

M: Right.

S: You have to have a witness. But, in those days.....He did it; the

principal could do it. He could do it.

M: Oh, the principal--that's what I thought. I know....

S: Yeah, the principal could do it, yeah. He could do it. Oh yeah.

M: You know, these bigger kids give you trouble or something.....

S: Oh no, the principal could do it. Yeah, he could do it.

M: Send them off to the principal.

S: Yeah, the principal could do it.

M: They told me that during lunch time ....

S: as the principal?

M: Yeah, but he was very much later.

S: Yeah, oh. It was the last. He was my last principal. You know, I

taught him in the first grade. And then he was my principal.

M: Hmm.

S: Isn't that something? (chuckle) Yeah, I taught him in the first


M: It must make you feel funny.

S: I did, I did have fun because when I wanted to

maybe get out early for some reason or another--something real worthy,

you know--I'd go up to him and I'd look up at him, and he wouldn't


(S) even look at me when I asked him permission. (chuckle) Oh, yes,

I enjoyed talking to him. 'Cute little fellow in the first grade.


M: He still looks awfully young.

S: Yeah, well he's lost a lot of weight.

M: Oh, is that right?

S: Yeah, he used to be a real great big fellow. Yeah. Stout, but he's

lost weight. I think he's afraid he's too fat.

M: He's not fat any more.

S: No, no. Not now.

M: Let's see now.

S: I haven't seen him since I left school; I haven't seen him.

M: That would be about eight years.....

S: About nine years ago.

M: Oh, he''d be surprised, then, to see what he looks like.

S: I would. I haven't seen him at all. And his children, I....I used to

see his children in the summer program. See, I used to teach the

summer program, too, you know. So, I had his children in the summer

program. Karen, and Joey, and I forgot the name of the other one.

There are two girls and a boy.

M: You taught just about everybody in the city, it seems like.

S: (chuckle) That's right.

M: They all passed through your hands at some point.

S: And you know whenever I see them, whenever they see me, they know me

right away. I don't know them, but they know me. Yeah. Even the


(S) garbage man came the other day, and I had taught him in the first

grade. And he says, "Don't you remember me, Miss Salas?" I said,

"Why sure I remember you." I did, because he was not well. He was

a little retarded. And he goes, he says, "Look, I'm a garbage man."

I said, "Well, it's an honest living. What's the matter with that?

There's nothing wrong with that. That's fine." Well, he felt so

bad because I had seen him pick up the garbage. Well, I made him

feel good. Oh, he's a nice little kid.

M: Let me ask you a few more questions here, and then we can wrap

this thing up. I don't want to be too much longer. It's getting

hot. Yeah. I'm always scared about these machines; I've just

started to using these....

S: Yeah, my niece has one.

M: 'Always makes me wonder what it's doing. You never know what it's

doing.(chuckle) I'd like to know what efforts were made to teach

citizenship to the children--not only first grade, but in the other


S: Well, in the upper grades the teachers did it.

M: The teachers did it.

S: Yes, yes, they did. In fact,we had...

M: This is only in the first years though, back in the 1920's.

S: Oh, I don't know about that. That I don't know. But I think that

the upper grades--the fourth, fifth and sixth--I think they must

have done something there. I'm not sure. Since we had this

building--the front building--there were two


(S) classes,there,going on--citizenship, you know? All these people

used to come up there to study, to learn.

M: You mean the students?

S: No, no the parents.

M: Oh.

S: The parents used to come up there; not the students, the parents.

M: Now what was happening in the citizenship class? What was meant

by "citizenship class"?

S: Well, to become Americans they had to learn the Constitution.

They had to learn American history.

M: You mean to pass the test?

S: Yes, to pass the test. And then they went before them and they

examined them, see?

M: They also had to learn English too, I think, didn't they?

S: Oh, they had to know English, yeah.

M: Okay. With the kids themselves though.....when the immigrants....

'cause all these kids.....First, I think Cuban kids were all

S: Cubans, Spanish and Italians.

M: And they weren't Americans when they came in there. I mean,

kid. You know he's got to learn to...

S: Well, the kids were born here.

M: Oh.

S: They were Americans.

M; So there' no problem,


S: No, the kids were born here. But the parents weren't.

M: Well, were the Anglo--or American--teachers.....well, you're

an American teacher too. I think the Anglo-American teachers

who were talked aboutthem not knowing Spanish,

and coming from other parts of the country. Were they aware

that these were immigrant kids that were going to have to be


S: Yes, yes they did. They did.

M: And did they try to Americanize them?

S: Oh yes, oh yes,they did, they did. Oh yes.

M: What methods)ou.Authey use, or what would they do about that?

S: I imagine they had to use all repetition, you know? I imagine

they must have, because their....

M: Did they talk about American history?

S: Oh yes. __Washington's birthday, Lincoln's birthday,

you know?

M: What would happen on Washington's birthday?

S: Oh, we always had a program.

M: What type?

S: Oh, well, a nice program.

M: What kind of program?

S: No, children. Uh, what do I want to say? (chuckle)

We'd have even Washington represented, and different...

M: Would you have a play, maybe?

S: A play, yes a play. I the auditorium, a play. Oh yes, she


(S) always had something either on Lincoln's, and Washington's.....

any special event, see? Armistice Day, and. ;.1A, little flags,

and they'd have a march or something. 'Try and explain to them

what Armistice Day meant, and Washington--who he was. They

knew all these things. And Lincoln.....and whatever...Robert E. Lee..

or whoever.....(chuckle)


S: Oh yes, they did that.

M: Okay.

S: And I'd want to tell them what was good, because everything was

centered there, and the whole class went to--the whole school went

to--the auditorium to see the show...the play.

M: So you might..

S: And of course all the teachers, whenever anything came up like

that, we all spoke about Washington, Lincoln, or whatever it is.

We all told them from the first grade up.

M: What would your kids say about these kinds of things?

S: What did they what? "Think"?

M: No, what would they say after they came back from seeing a play like

this--George Washington and Lincoln.

S: Oh, they knew the songs....

M: The little first graders...

S: They knew the songs because the teachers had taught them in the

other rooms, see? And they had heard them. And they went, too,

to the auditorium so they must have heard the......when they were


(S) practicing, see? And in all these rooms they taught them the

music of Washington and Lincoln, or whatever it was, you know?

M: This was back in the 20's,too, that you had Washington and


S: Oh yes, I imagine they must have because the teacher....there

were special teachers, all special teachers and they had to teach


M: Butfyou remember, under Coleman and Crow, that there were these

kinds of assemblies on Washington and Lincoln....

S: I'm almost sure because we had all these different classes, and

I'm sure the teachers taught them. I didn't go there because I

wasn't.....I couldn't because I had my class. I was down there


M: Oh, didn't they have occasions when everybody went to the auditorium?

S: When we had the play, uh huh (affirmative). Washington's Day, and

then we had the play then, or every six weeks when we had whatever

play it was. And the whole school went. Sometimes we had to double

up to sit down; they had to sit two-together. And then we had to

put chairs in the aisles, you know, because the auditorium doesn't

hold that many people.

M: But you.....everybody went to that?

S: Everybody.

M: And that would have been even under Crow and Coleman. See, at

some point they started doing things like this, and I'm trying to

nail it down.


S: Yeah, I'm trying to find out who.....I don't think it was....yes,

it was because.....

M: They had an auditorium here.

S: Because the auditorium....we had platoon in Mr. Lincoln's--(chuckle)

Mr. Coleman's--time. The platoon. So it must have been in there.

And Miss Hinton was teaching it because she was the auditorium


M: Okay. Nbw....

S: I haven't seen her in years If she came up

to me, I wouldn't have recognized her. After so many years, I

hadn't seen her. And she said, "You remember me? I used to teach,

I used to play in the auditorium." I saw her the other day.

M: Special music teacher. Was she from Tampa?

S: Yes, she lives here.

M: Tampa-born?

S: Yeah, Tampa-born.Miss Ingram was from Alabama.

M: She was?

S: Yeah, Miss Ingram was from Alabama.

M: I sort of assumed she was from Tampa because...

S: And then we had Miss Gregory.

M: Uh huh.

S: She had been to the Philippines,and taught in the Philippines. She

knew her Spanish. Her husband was a lawyer. And she had a son.

The son died not very long ago. They live right here on the corner.

M: That's too bad.

S: Yeah, because he was a nice.....a nice healthy-looking boy. He


(S) had cancer. Terrible. Her mother died of cancer too--her


M: What subjects did you feel were most important for the Latin

students to learn?

S: Reading. I think the reading was the most important, I think.

Yes, they ought to know how to read.

M: And of course then....

S: And, of course, speak the language. YQi had to use a lot of the

language, you know?

M: What subjects did the Latin students feel were most important to


S: I imagine English, don't you think?

M: I don't know.

S: I would think English.

M: Then the kids might not like English. Maybe they might like....

S: Oh, well, they liked music. You know, Latins love music.

M: Uh huh.

S: Oh, they love music.

M: They like music....

S: They like nature studies--science. They like that,too, very much.

Of course, physical ed.; they're crazy about that.

M: Everybody likes physical ed.

S: Jerry Wilson was teaching physical ed. out there.

M: Well, do first graders get to go to physical ed.?

S: Yes, we did have a hard time in physical ed. teaching the first


(S) graders.

M: Okay. Now, what was the procedure for passing Latin pupils

from one grade to the next? Go ahead, you want to say something?

S: I was thinking that mostly, later on, we had to teach our own

physical ed. Of course, that was after the platoon.

M: Okay. But in the earlier days, you.....

S: Yeah, yes.

M: ...had one physical ed. coach who did it.

S: One for the first three grades, and one for the fourth, fifth,


M: Okay.

S: Yeah.

M: Now, what was the procedure used for passing Latin pupils from

one grade to the next? On what basis were they passed?

S: Well, if they knew the subject....

M: They were passed.

S: They were passed. If they knew the subject. Listen, in those

days, we didn't pass so promotion...there

wasn't too much of that.

M: Social promotion started under McIntosh, I think, didn't it?

S: Something like that, yeah.

M: Okay.

S: Yeah, something like that.

M: Was there any separation of children in the classroom according

to either sex or age?


S: No, we had boys and girls.

M: Mixed together?

S: Yeah, boys and girls.

M: Sitting next to each other?

S: Uh huh (affirmative)

M: How about the playground?

S: Yeah. No, the playground--that was separate. Girls on one

side, and boys on the other side.

M: Did you separate any of the children for.....

S: Unless they misbehaved or something, you know.

M: Oh, they were separated for that too.

S: Yeah, oh yeah, sure they were.

M: Okay.

S: We wouldn't keep two children together that wouldn't get along,

or something.

M: Well, what would you do with them?

S: But in the first grade I didn't have any trouble.

M: Okay. You usually don't if they're that young.

S: No, they're too young. That's why I like the first grade.

To me, they're the best grade to teach. I think anything you

say is the thing to do.....what the teacher says.

M: Okay. What about the ability......well, like language ability

or academic ability? You know, if some kids were slower than

others, would you separate them?

S: Yeah, that's right. Some are slower and some caught right away.


M: What would you do about the slower ones in your class?

S: Oh, we had to give them more work. Give them work

while the others were....might be doing busy

work, or something like that.

M: OH, I see. So, you'd sorta go....

S: They'd be drawing....they could be drawing or doing something

else....or some kind of busy work we had....or.....and then

work with those that need you.

M: In other words, the....say, like if its reading....for an hour.

S: Yeah. Say, you'd have maybe he word-chart drill,

drill the words, or drillMk-Ae.s or something like that.

M: And you'd have some students doing something else?

S: Or maybe I'd get somebody that's real smart, you know, in class,

and let them help some little child. I did quite Abit of that.

M: Quite a bit of what?

S: Yeah, of that because it was good. And if I had good student

in my class....well, she could be drilling those children. Saying

the words and the phrases while I was doing something else.

It takes time.

M: There's one thing I noticed that may be coincidental. But most

of the people--teachers--I've run into were first grade teachers,

who are still alive today. I don't know, but could it be that

most of the, either Latin teachers were teaching first grade,

or could it be that..............

*****************END OF SIDE 1, Part II


S: Oh yes.

M: You mean you needed Latin teachers to teach at that level?

S: Yes. In those days, yes. But there were a few American girls

that did all right too.

M: At that lower level?

S: At that lower level, they did real well, because I remember

Ruth Star--she's still living. And she was good with the

children. She'd get it across. She'd have to make signs, or

whatever it was, but she'd get it across, you know.

M: Well, what kind of teachers would teach the upper grades, in

terms of nationality or age, or experience?

S: Well, thererere all, because there was Miss Moray--which is

Mrs. Campbell now-,and she was Italian. Italian descent. And

she taught the upper grades. She was a very strict teacheri-a

very good teacher. In fact, after she retired and she was

substituting, whenever I--I had to go to New York once and I

asked her to take care of my class, she was so good. And I

knew my children missed everything having her as a substitute

because she was wonderful. So we had....we had the....they

were mostly Americans, but we had a few--very few--Latins in

the upper grades.

M: But most Americans taught the upper grades?

S: Most Americans, yes. But this Mrs. Campbell was really wonderful.

M: So actually you Latin girls had to take on......

S: Mrs. Campbell is related to Dick Greckle. I think she's Dick


(S) Greckle's aunt.

M: Something like that. I heard....Mr. Chatamonte told me that.

S: Yeah, Dick Greckle. Yeah. I taught her little boy. Her

little boy is an engineer in California.

M: Really?

S: Yeah.

M: Well that's interesting_ _

S: Yeah, I haven't seen him; he was a cute little fellow.

M: there any way I can contact Mrs. Campbell?

S: You might. Ask for Mr. Greckle. Oh, go to the hardware store.

Y_ou know the hardware store on Eighth Avenue and 15th Street?

And his niece is there. Dick Greckle's mother is her niece.. ,,

is Grace Campbell's niece. And she'll tell you where she liyes-

and everything. See, she was a secretary at my school when I

went to teach there. Dick Greckle's mother was a secretary

there. And she left. After I was there, she left.

M: Let's see. The hardware store is 15th Street?

S: Yes, 15th Street and Eighth Avenue, right on the corner there-

It says "King Hardware".

M: King?

S: King Hardware.

M: Okay.

S: She's there. She runs the place--her husband died. That's

Dick's father.....mother. That's Dick mother.

M: How old is Mrs. Campbell now? About.


S: Oh, Mrs. Campbell? She must be in the late 60's, or maybe

70, I don't know.

M: Oh, that's not too bad.

S: But she's a wonderful teacher. Wonderful.

M: I have to get hold of someone who taught the upper grades.

S: She married a ----- fellow. He was a teacher'-a principals

teacher. And then he lost his mind. And she is wonderful,

though. Very good. I haven't seen her now in quite a while,

but I know she's very good.

M: Um, I want to check that out very carefully. Can I say, then,

that mostly Latin teachers taught at the lower grades? Would

you think that was....

S: No, no, not mostly. There were quite a few, but not mostly

because there were some American girls there.

M: Would.....can I.....about.....Can I say Latin teachers taught

at the upper grades, or mostly American teachers?

S: No, no, no because there was only Grace Campbell...Mrs. Campbell.

M: She was the only Latin teacher......

S: She was the only Latin that taught the upper grades, that I can


M: And would you say it was mostly older or younger teachers who

taught the upper grades?

S; Well, I think they were the older ones.

M: Uh huh. What did they do with the inexperienced Anglo-American

teachers that they sent there?


S: Well, __teacher helped you quite a bit.

That's the way I got my help--from my neighbors

they were two first-grade teachers.

M: Well, now of course you were Latin and you were teaching first

grade. But, now, I noticed there were somethingAfour or five--

well, maybe ten---girls that would be assigned. There were

Anglo-American girls assigned to a school, ten at a time, that

would have....either have no degree or no teaching experience,

or this was their first teaching job. And I was wondering what

grades these girls would be assigned--who have very little

experience and weren't even Latin, so they couldn't speak

Spanish. Did you you recall any of these girls, or any

of these kinds of people?


M: Most of the people knew their job, then, I guess.

S: Did you read any theses on this?

M: Yes, I read.....

S: Because somebody wrote one. Who is it? I can't remember.

M: On what, then?

S: On Ybor.

M: Oh, sure.

S: Did you read some of them?

M: talk about education.

S: Uh huh, that's right.

M: Nobody reallygives education its due, and I'm very surprised.


M: Everybody likes to talk about politics problems, you know. But

the teachers.....

S: Ah,

M: And they're the ones that were the backbone of the whole thing.

S: Yeah, that's right.

M: No teachers, no change. Well, I'm lecturing. Ild better not.

See, I was a teacher, too.

S: (chuckle). That's right.

M: Okay. Uh, I think we've just about covered it.

S: Mrs. Campbell--that's the last thing you have there.

M: Right there.

S: Grace.

M: Now, two little things I've picked up. Do you know anything

about the Latin American Institute in the 1920's? Not as a

teacher, but just as a person living in Tampa now, I'll ask you.

S: About the people?

M: No, there was a school here called the Latin American Institute,

back in the 1920's. Did you ever recall it?

S; No.

M: Do you ever recall any of the little 1 that some of

neighborhood people would have?

S: Well, the .....differennchurches4ad schools there. Like that

church there on--I'm not sure it exists there--on 15th Street

and....between Ninth and Eighth Avenue.There was....the churches

had little schools had some.


(S) And this other church here, on 15th Street, between Eighth-

and Ninth. I don't think it's still there.

M: Is that Presbyterian?

S: I think they took it down. I don't know if it's Presbyterian,

Methodist, or what. One of those. I think....they tore it

down, or something.

M: Did....

S: Yeah, they had those schools. They had things for children to

go out to school, there. Like Scouts. Girl Scouts, and things

like that. And that's where most of the children were.While

the parents were working, they would go there.

M: Now, that's public school?

S: Yes, at the public school. They'd go there and they'd go home,

maybe, to get something to eat and then go there.

M: Oh, well, because you said children were often dismissed at

noon time.

S: Well that's in the lower grades. You know, the first six weeks__

dismissed at either twelve o'clock or 1:15, I've forgot now.

M: Ah, I'm going to keep that clear for my record. Only during the

first six weeks.

S: Yes sir, it's not done all the time.

M: After that they had to stay until 3:00.

S; Oh yes, I think so.

M: Okay. Now, the other thing I wondered about.....

S: Doctor.....another doctor was Dr. Santino. He used to belong to...


(S) He used to go with these girls who were friends of mine,..,used


M: Santino?

S: Jose Santino, yeah he's.....

M: Let me ask you: do you recall "Education Week"?

S: We used to have that later on. I don't know whether we had it

at the beginning or not. I don't recall.

M: Well, the newspaper mentioned....

S: It does?

M: It does, yes.

S: Well, they must have.

M: They were going to do this, that and the other. And all the


S: Well, probably they did. We had, maybe, some kind of a special

program or something. We must have had.

M: Can you remember what the programs were like?

S: No, I don't.

M: Okay. Can you remember any other kinds of special weeks or

special days that they would have county-wide, that you had to

celebrate at Ybor?

S: Hm, that's a while back. if somebody would

mention something (chuckle) ....

M: You could remember it, but not just like that.

S: I can't remember that, whether we did or not. Hut I: iagine

these outstanding things we did do from the very beginning


(S) because we had the principals there. Now surely...

M: Well, they certainly had.....I know they had an Education

Week and I was curious totnow what happened at Ybor when they

had something like this. Or if they had....

S: Somebody must have come to visit

supervising principal, or the principal--not the principal, the

superintendent, Mr., before 6ause Barnell was

later on. Somebody else. Who was there before? It's too far

back to remember (chuckle) my brain.

M: I just can't imagine what it must be like. You know, this is

something like 30 years ago.

S: Oh, I imagine we'd go to the auditorium and they'd have something,

you know that taught some older child either history or something,


M: But my impression from talkingp/Mg you is that most of the school

day--most of the school events....everything you had to do at


S: Was centered in the auditorium.

M: Was centered in the auditorium.

S: Oh yes, that was a core of the

M: And if you went to the auditorium, it was to hear somebody speak....

S: Yes. Oh, we had speakers come. We had doctors or....

Now, one year we had the doctors come and immunize the children

for nothing. And I got him--that was Dr. -and I

asked him--he was a friend of mine--I said, "Would you like to


CSJ come do something worthwhile and come to Ybor School?"

And he did; he did it for nothing. And he examined children.

M: But generally speaking, the holidays--not holidays, but the

plays, you had plays....

S: Everything took place in the auditorium, that was the.....yes.

M: Okay. And it was...

S: That was the core. Everything.....all these different departments

centered in the auditorium.

M: And you would.....I imagine you would go out of your way to

celebrate certain holidays.

S: Oh yes. Oh sure, Washington, Lincoln....all those were.,...

oh yes, Christmas was the....we had nice Christmas programs,

pageants, you know?

M: Uh huh. In English, though?

S: Oh yeah. Well, no, there wasn't anything Spanish there.

Everything was English. No, no, that wasj!li English. And

the parents came to see it, they had to hear it in English.

M: So they had to learn English....

S: C _vIthey learned it though. Of course that first generation

was bad, you know. It was hard. They were so busy working.

Of course they had all these clubs. You know, they used to

belong to these clubs in town: Spanish Club, Cuban Club,

Club, where they paid a certain amount and

No, not like now. Now, it's all over.

M: Did your parents belong to any clubs like that?


S: Yeah, we used to belong to a club.

M: Which club?

S: We used to belong to the Cuban Club.

M: Oh, you considered yourselves to be Cubans.

S: Uh huh, yeah, we used to belong to the Cuban Club. And my brother-

in-law--my sister's......see, I lived with my sister, Mrs. Franco--

and he belonged to the Spanish Club, too. So he belonged to two

clubs. And the ; he belonged to three.

M: What were the differences....

S: He was a pharmacist.

M: What was the difference between the three clubs, besides the

fact that you're Spanish or....

S: Well, because they asked you to join and you'd join.

M: Well, you know, what reputation did each club have?

S: Oh, they were wonderful because you know what it is to go for

just a certain, just a small amount of money you paid monthly?

You'd get sick, you'd go to your doctor, then you'd go to the

hospital to have the operation. For just a small amount of

money. It's not like now. Now it's so different. All that's

finished. The Cuban Club has hardly any members anymore. I

don't think it's functioning anymore, I don't think. Now the

has a nice hospital and the

The Italians don't have any.___

But, oh, it was nice for those people. That's why they were

built like that so people.....they were working and they'd


(S) have a place where you could go to get sick. And they had a

doctor, and you wouldn't have to pay but just that amount

M: That's it. Those are my questions. What do you think about it?

S: (chuckle) I don't know if you got anything out of it. Did you?

M: I sure did. I mean, if you look at the kinds of questions- you

answered here, it's fantastic. I'm really proud of myself and

I'm proud of you. We did it.

S: (chuckle) Well, thank you.

M: It takes two to do these things.

S: I'm glad to help you.

M: It takes two, you know. You have to be a good interviewee, as

well as a good interviewer. And you were a good interviewee.

S: Oh, my gracious no.

M: When I ask a question of people, I keep my fingers.... s i

I'm sitting there, "Will they answer it, will they answer it?"/\

It was......

S; Who are you teaching.....I mean, who are you working under?

Who's your....

M: Dr. Ritter.

S: Dr. who?

M: You probably don't know him. University of Florida? Dr......

S: I don't know him. No, all my (chuckle) professors have died, I


M: Oh right. You were, they've all....


S: No, now they've gone.

M: A long time ago.

S: Sure, they've all gone.. I used to

go every summer. When I started teaching in '25, I used to go

every summer and take the courses they offered here. And it

was so cheap then. We'd get a course for $15, or $12. We'd

get three-hour credit--three semester-hours.

M: And that would go toward your degree as well, wouldn't it?

S: Towards the degree.

M: I mean your certificate......

S: Then in the summer I'd go over there. In the summer "'d go Back

there until I got my degree.

M: All right, I didn't mean your degree I meant your.....

S: I went there every summer.

M: Didn't you have to get a teaching certificate?

S: Y_es, we had to pass a......take an examination and they'd give

you a certificate to teach until you get.....until you went through

the program.

M: And of course, the higher the certificate, the more....the higher

your salary, right?

S: No.

M: How did the certificate....

S: By year. They raise you by....

M: Regardless of the certificate you have?

S: Yeah, regardless.


M: They didn't care how...

S: No.

M: What was the advantage....

S: Oh, I imagine if I had had a degree. Yes, I imagine they got

more--better money. Oh, I imagine so, yes.

M: Because I know there were six stages of, I think something like

six or eight.....yeah, about six or eight different certificates

that you could get. One was higher than the other.

S: Yeah.

M: But.....And I thought that if you had a high certificate, you

could probablyake more money. But I guess not.

S: No, Idon't know. Where we were \ We all

had the same kind of certificate. 'Got the same amount of

money. It all depends on the years....or after you're....they'd

raise your salary.

M: What did girls think about teaching back in those days? Back

in the 20's?

S: The what?

M: The girls. I call them "girls" now, because I've seen so many

pictures of the girls, you know, that....

S: (chuckle) You haven't seen any pictures up there of us, have


M: I might have. I didn't know the difference, at the time. But,

the newspaper--no, not the newspaper--some of the old albums...

You know, by now I've read enough books where they.....well,