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Interview with Stanley West, August 4, 1978

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Title:
Interview with Stanley West, August 4, 1978
Creator:
West, Stanley ( Interviewee )
Publication Date:
Language:
English

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Subjects / Keywords:
University of Florida Campus (General) Oral History Collection ( local )

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Funding:
This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.

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Source Institution:
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location:
This interview is part of the 'University of Florida' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management:
Made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/.
Resource Identifier:
UF 65 ( SPOHP IDENTIFIER )

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and Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
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UF 65AB-TAPE A/Side 1
Page 1
acm
-S
K: Today if Friday, August 4, 1978. My name is Steve Kerber and
I am going to be conducting an oral histort interview with
Mr. Stanley West formerly, Director of the Libraries for
the University of Florida. This interview will take place in
room 106 of the Florida State Museum at 10:00 a.m.
....Dr. Proctor's, you know, percentage of Dr. Proctor's'
~ i 41 I ....
W: Mm hm. Do you have money enough to have 'em transcribed or
do you have to leave 'em on the tapes?
K: No, we have a complete program. Actually the largest part
of the program is not the University of Florida part but
the Southeastern Indian part which was financed by--
W: Ohh, I see.
K: -- a grant from Dofii- DLk ~oL-ee ,rcu l,O/ /e irerss,
W: Mm hm.
K: And so we take it all the way through from the initial inter-
view through the first draft typing and then we have someone
called an audit editor-
W: Ohh, uh huh.
K: -- a oa* / make sure it's all transcribed and at that
point it goes back to you to--


UF 65AB
Page 2 acm
W: I see, uh huh.
K: --as a rough draft so that if there are names that
we could not check or something--
W: Well, that's good because I think so many of these projects
theyget as far as the tapes and then they don't have money
enough to get them uh put on paper.
K: It involves,as you probably know from being involved with a
program, a great deal of money and costs hundreds of dollars
to do each interview.
W: I know.
K: --
W: Yes it does.
K: See why some people just try to get the tapes going and then
hope they can get funding later.
W: Later on do that?
K: I think sometimes that's n p
W: Heh heh heh.
K: Well, I have quite a bit to throw at you, so I guess we better
get started. First of all, I'd like to ask you to give me your
full name?
W: Stanley L. West.
K: Okay. And when did you leave the University of Florida the second
time?
W: In September of 1967.
K: And what was your position at that time?


UF 65AB
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W: Director of Libraries.
K: Okay. We'll back up a little bit. Where were you born?
W: Los Angeles.
K: And when?
W: 1912.
K: What was your father's name?
W: Allen Melville West.
K: And your mother's name?
W: Maude Underwood West.
K: Have they been...excuse me, I'd better shut this door. I think
we're going to pick up a little noise. Were your parents long-time
residents of California, or Los Angeles?
W: Yes, yes they were. I'm not sure exactly when they moved there but I know
that it, oh, as far back as my great great grandmother lived in Southern
California. They didn't come as early as you know, like covered wagon, but
they were part of that migration from New England and Iowa on out to Southern
California. Probably took place oh in early 1900s. Maybe, well I was born
in 19-probably, in, in, yeah, in the 1800s. Probably the latter part of
the nineteenth century because I was born in Los Angeles in 1912.
K: What did your father do for a living?
W: Uh, that's a good question. He is a very interesting man. I'll tell you
some of the things that he did. I guess maybe what you'd say he did was
to try to make money. I, the story goes that when he was twenty-one he
owned a little circus. Byi the time he was, let's see, I was about ~, by
the time he was thirty-five he owned a summer resort on Lake Tahoe. During


UF 65AB Iss
Page 4
the Depression, he just did all sorts of things. Uh, the, as one of the
things he did when prohibition was repealed, he represented one of the
oldest of the California wineries to open up the sale of wine in Chicago
and Florida. That's how I happened to get to Florida in the first place.
During World War II, I think he was selling supplies to the Army and the
X2 Is/t, ffi vef rf?,"Li
Navy. What kind of picture that makes I don't know. s sat down
and tried to figure out, you know, I think sometimes how I think you take
your parents for granted and you just don't...
K: Yes.
W: ...I think this, that if he'd had a college education he probably would
have exceeded.My brotheks a doctor and I'm a lawyer and a librarian. I
think he probably would have gone farther than eithe one of us. But I mean,
he just had an inventive mind and saw opportunities to make money. Not that
we were rich all the time. We certainly weren't, but that, what he would
see in opportunity and most of them went broke. The circus did I think.
The resort got snowed out one summer when right at the top of the height
of the season. They had a big snowstorm and nobody could get up there.
K: Well)at least he enjoyed his life anyway.
W: Well, I don't know, probably. I don't know whether he realized he did but
at least a routine, dull life.
K: Not ever dull. Did you go to grade school or high school in Los Angeles?
W: I went to grade school -_ we moved around so
much. I went to grade school in Los Angeles and San Diego. We were down
there during the first World War. Then, we moved to Nevada and we lived
in Nevada for five or six years. Then, we came back to Santa Monica. I
graduated from high school, Santa Monica High School. Then went to college
at Berkeley.


UF 65AB
eagge- -
lss
K: When did you graduate from high school?
W: 1929.
K: Did you go:right on to the University of California or did you do
something in between?
/ /
W: Um Hmm. I started right v t-?.-u /; 'i e
K: Immediately?
W: Hm hmm.
K: What was your major in college?
W: Political Science. The reason I hesitated, is I've had almost exactly
the number of credits in history as I did in political science but I
think my official major was political science. My graduate work was in
political science.
K: Why did you choose Berkeley in particular? Was there a special reason?
W: Not a very scientific reason. I, UCLA opened up that year, 1929, and I'd
already been admitted to UCLA. During the summer I had a job in northern
California and met some students at Berkeley and they persuaded me that
Berkeley was a better school than UCLA, so I had my records transferred
to Berkeley and went there.
K: I see.
W: It was just that way.
K: Had your parents wanted you to go to school, or was it more your own
decision?
W: No, they, there was never a question of whether I'd go. I wanted, I really
wanted to go to Pamera but my father thought that a larger university would
be better. That was the only question.
K: What made you want to major in political science and partially in history?
Had you just always had an interest in those fields? Or were you looking


UF 65AB
Page 6 lss
towards the future in any particular sense?
W: I think in the back of my mind, and certainly in the back of my fatherts -
not in the back of it, in the front of my father's mind, was I'd go to
law school. And I somehow thought that 'political science would be a
natural preparation. I really liked history better than political science.
K: Now when did you graduate from the University of California?
W: 1933.
K: And what did you do then?
W: Oh, I took a year of graduate work in publica administration at Berkeley.
Public Administration. Maybe I ought to add that theohe year during that
Depression, I went to University of Nevada. My folks were living up there.
Just cause money was easier to-get up there than it was to get back down
in California.
K: Which year specifically?
W: The sophomore year.
K: Sophomore year. Then you went back?
W: And had, I had the freshman, the junior-senior years and then a year of
work in public administration at Berkeley.
K: Then how did you, where did you go after that extra year of study at
Berkeley?
W: I started law school at Michigan.
K: University of Michigan in Ann Arbor?
W: Hm hmm. Hmm hmm.
K: That was a long ways from your old stomping ground. What made you go up
there?
W: Well, two things. One is, my father told me that I could go to any law
school I wanted to that I could get in. And Michigan had just opened up


UF 65AB_
Page- 7 lss
its law quadrangle and it was, I knew that it was one of the fine schools
and at that time that's when my father was working with the wine and
Chicago as the headquarters. So, just again, it was sort of Michigan was
I thought a good school, and it was closer to Chicago than some of the
others would have been. But that was all. There was no special connection
with Michigan. It was just supposed to he a good law school.
K: And how long did you stay in Ann Arbor?
W: Just one year. Then, I had a chance, and this is the Florida thing. I had
a chance...Jacksonville was just opening up its Civil Service Board7 /
brand new one and I had a chance to help set it up, to set up their service
rating systems and things like that and so I stayed out a year and did
that and then met a lawyer while I was doing that who knew that, I'd told
him that I had one year ae law and he suggested that I go back to law
school or come over here to law school and then go practice with him.
K: Do you mind telling me his name?
W: Emmett Saffay.
K: Now was he practicing in Jacksonville or in Gainesville?
W: Jacksonville.
K: So what was the year that you stayed in Jacksonville?
W: 1935-36.
K: And then you started school here in law school...
W: 1936.
K: '36.
W: Second year.
K: Second year, right.
W: Yeah.
K: You had completed your first year. I see. Were your parents still up in


UF 6.5AB
Page 8 lss
Chicago or did they ever come to Florida?
W: Yeah. They were in Florida for a short time but then they went back
out to California.
K: Had you ever visited Florida on a vacation or at any other occasion before
you got your job in Jacksonville?
W: Yeah. I had come down here with my father because he had
K: On his --- _-
W: He had an outlet in Miami.
K: I see.
W: He shipped the wine from Chicago to Miami.
K: So had you physically been in Gainesville before?
W: No. No, I met Dean Beaty when I decided I wanted to go back to school
and I needed to get a job to do it. Dean Beatty was in Jacksonville
interviewing people and he said yes, he thought I had a job but I needed
to come over here sometime, you know,before school started. The first
time I saw it was when I came on that train down Main Street. Came on a
train and I think it was in August. I sure didn't think I was going to
spend the rest of my life in Gainesville that August day.
K: What were your impressions of this little town at that time?
W: Well, it was so hot and I really, I just remember the heat and the feeling
that, well, that particular summer, I remember riding down on the train
>v t itU rtt MLtv
past the place where the corn was and my ideas that some of the corn ought
to be green, some of the corn had already gotten ripe and it just, you
know, theypust, it was just, what I did like when I got out to the campus,
everybody was so very nice and helpful but after say, Ann Arbor and Berkeley,
it just didn't...


UF 65AB lss
Page 9
K: Rather small time?
W: Yeah. And small. Yeah. Really.
K: But it seemed much hotter to you here than it had in Jacksonville?
W: Yeah. Now, of course the probably, the difference was, is where I lived
in Jacksonville was out near the river and I worked most of the time so
I wasn't aware as much of the environment but yeah, I would say that the
heat was the thing that impressed me first.
K: Did you intend, when you began law school here, to become a practicing
attorney or had you any idea that you would later become a law librarian?
W: Well, I intended to go back and practice with Mr. Saffay.
K: I see. You had sort of an understanding?
W: Oh yeah. The dean--I was working in the library and while I was in law
o /hcriiatonrtht
school, the American Association of Law Schools introduced that there had
to be a full-time trained librarian in every law school to be accredited.
And soothe beginning of my senior year really, no, by golly, it was the end
of my first year the dean came in and said that there was a course at
Columbia being offered on law library administration and that if I would
go up there and take that course, in the summertime, after I graduated, I
could teach half-time and be a law librarian half-time. And so I had to
go talk to Mr. Saffay and tell him. He said, well, if that's what I
wanted to do, that's what I really wanted to do, why, sure, it was all right.
So, that was the way it was done.
K: Very understanding of him. By the dean, did you mean Dean Beaty or Dean
Trussler?
W: Dean Trussler.
K: When you started your second year of law school here, how long did it take
tocomplete the program? Was it a three year program?
eu to complete the program? Was it a three year program?


UF 65AB
Page. 1Q
lss
W: Three years. I think I started the first year you-had to have a four
year degree to get in. But I think until that time it had been...because
the Bar Association only required two years and then, but I think the
Association of Law Schools and probably the university felt that the,
the faculty probably felt, so it was, the first, really the beginning of
the three years on top of the four.
K: How many semesters did that involve? Six?
W: Yeah.
K: Okay. Did your classes all meet in the old law school building?
W: All met in the cld building and they all met in the morning. There weren't
any afternoon classes. Except practice court.
K: Did you haye more than two or three classes each quarter?
W: Oh yeah, yeah. I believe we had to have something like eighty hours to
graduate, which was more. Michigan I think was something like 'it" y 4to
hours were only required, ./heC& 5-e /X.rA tee time. Yeah, we
took, I think, probably we took, I don't even know what's required now but
I would say that compared to some of the other schools, we took more courses
than some of the schools required.
K: Were there any women students in the law school in your class?
X.e W: Hm hmm. Professor Tesell was on the faculty and his daughter was in law
school when I was there and Lucille Carnes aerge, who is now Lucille
George was in law school when I was there.
K: Did your classes also meet on Saturday morning?
W: No.
K: Did a plvr'^ tstudent have the opportunity to specialize in any sense at
that time or was it a very general program?---
W: I think you would almost have to say it would be general. That is, I


UF 65AB
Page 11 acm
think, I'm not sure, but I think probably there were probably more than
six or seven people on the faculty and so there weren't that many ad-
vanced courses in, you know, in the field. At least, now I think probably
I probably had more courses in property because I know when they found out
* t
when the faculty met, Trussler told the faculty that I was going to beit,
I know that Professor -4rnedle came in. I was taking Practice Court and he
came in and he said, since I was going to be on the faculty, he thought it
would be more important for me to have Future Interests.than it would be
Practice Court. So he shifted me, or I was shifted from Practice Court
to Future Interests. So I probably had more Property, a little bit more
Property than most students but it was a pretty, we sort of had to take a
little bit of everything.
K: Wnere there any law courses offered during the summer? I know you were not
taking them during the summer.
W: I'm sorry. I don't know. I, because the middle summer I was away and
then I went back to library school the summer I graduated to take more
courses. But my impression is, there were not, but I really don't know.
I don't remember.
K: Okay. Wher did you do your studying as a law student, you your-
self?
W: Well, I worked in the library so heh hah hah hah heh heh I did
all my work there.every afternoon! Let's see, I started probably
around lttwo or three in the afternoon and then worked again at
night until ten o'clock. From seven till ten.
K: Where-where was the law library located within Bryan?
W: Well, ito on the ground floor--let's see uhh if you would go
in say from the uh from the Library East side uh you turn, to
the left.


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K: Okay. Who was the law librarian....
W: Mrs.--Mrs. Pridgen.
K: Mrs. Pridgen? Could you tell me-alittle about her?
W: She's a very remarkable lady. I think probably that I might--my
guess is that she's responsible for my being appointed be-
cause I was a student assistant in the library who reported to
her.Uhh uhh all-all right, I'll say this, if I was-the one
thing I remember about Miz Pridgen and I've used in my-my
life a lot of times is that uh EVERY year I was there Mrs.
Pridgen would say, "This is the best law school class that's
ever graduated ,from this law school!" Which I think is a
sort of indicative first of her interest in the students
and second in always as lookin',you know, not looking back
looking forward.
K: Mm hm.Very optimistic person?
-ed
W: Mm hm. And uh if you interview'her then you know, she was the
librarian and the secretary and just kind of really, fact I
think she was--she was the--I don't believe there's even a-
nother typist in that--on the faculty then. I think she was
just it. She did everything!
C.-
K: r see. I'd like to mention the names of some of the faculty
members of the law faculty of that time. If you would, just give


UF 65AB
Page 13 acm
a brief description of what you remember about then--their
or
personality whatever, perhaps what they--what they taught--
W: Mm hm.
K: Uh Clifford Crandall?
W: Well, he was a big jolly man. Uh I believe he was from Mich-
igan originally. He--he was the one who taught Future Interests
who came right in-into the class heh heh heh in the uh where
I was-- s.-- se s practiced court to tell me
to come take his course in Future Interests. Uhh he was the V
Property man and oh, well2 I guess he did more than that--he
taught, I' think, 'uinicipal corporations too. But uh I
think he was--fie--my guess-I would say he was probably the
most urbane man on the faculty. Uhh he-he-he was a knowledge-
able -erson, I think that he-I think probably he had well l
I guess, I don't know what I can say that I would try--I had
a feeling that he-knew a lot about a lot of things. Not that
he-that I didn't have a feeling that he's a deep scholar
but I' think he knew-had at least a-a speakin' acquaintance
with a lot of fieldSof law and a lot of-lot of things about
just the national economy and things of this kind....
K. Well read person do you think?
W: Yeah, mm hm, yeah.


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K: How about James Day?
W: Well, he was the hardworking scholarly man on the faculty. I-
I know that he worked the hardest uhh and went in-in more depth
in-into things than any of the other people. I don't--he wasn't
a particularly exciting teacher, he was just a-you know, a
very careful meticulous scholar who expected that from his stud-
ents. But he was very nice and fair but I mean, you know....
no ubtwell, as compared to Mr. 7 / i -7e here was no
flamboyance in class, there. was no-no special colour, excite-
ment, but he was a thorough scholar.
V KI IZ see. Hbow about Dean Slagel?
W: ml. he was an enigma. UhFi uhh it was very-v had very hard time
commanding respect of the students uhh attention in class, I
thiPk he was discouraged uhm and I think he didn't--he didn't
respond very much and the sttents didn't respond very much to
him. Uhhm uh he had aery disconcerting way of busting some
of the students that most people thought would get A's and
giving fairly high-grades to some of the people who weren't
considered to be very good students. I--I at that time T
got to-him, that is as a member of the faculty and as a pot-
ential member of the faculty he was probably a little bit
frank with me then he would have been to the average student.
But I: kept trying to find a-a rationale some-some guide or
code he was going by. But I never was able to. Uh I think he
had
was conscientious but r think that he-I think that hedhad so
much trouble with students in the class that he had sort of


UF 65AB
Page 15 acm
just lost his fire.
K: What was his field? His area?
W: I think I had Private Corporations from him and maybe Con-
stitutional Law, r think I-I' think I had Cons titutional Law
and Private Corporations. This is a memory that remember this
is from 1933 uh forty-forty-five years ago? Ohh, it couldn't
be that--thirty oh well, 1938 to '78--that is 1forty years ago,
isn't it?
K: Yes.
W: All right. Heh heh heh
K: Close enough.
W: Heh heh yeah heh.
K: Okay now, how do you pronounce this man's name-TeeSELL?
W: TEEsell.
K: TEEsell. Clarence Teesell?
W: Mm hm. Well, he--he was the uh colorful person on--on the faculty.
He--he had been I believe a prosecuting attorney in Wisconsin.
K: Mm hm.
W: And uh uhh rumor was. he came down here because of his health,
but he--he was a stimulating teacher. He was one of the-the
people who kept me baffled the whole time, he was uh when you
got up to recite you'd never know what-ahe\,woul fire questions
at you. He'd say well if the judge is goin' to do that you
4gight just as well get well, you know, prepared for it.


UF 65AB
Page 16 acm
Uhhm umm I think--I think the students would say that he was
one of the most stimulating teachers uh this for example now,
take,
we would I think I had a course in Insurance from him-I believe
by the end of the semester uh we had only say gotten halfway
throught the book becuase it was the legal process he was in-
5 uM Lit,111VL
terested in not the auboitive law.
K: Mm hm.
W: At least that's what my analysis of the situtation. While people
like Dean Trussler uh would-would uh maybe take ten cases a
day or fifteen cases a day some--you know in the case books
a day--just to finish the book so we'd been exposed to every-
thing.Thus difference in the two uh two methods of teaching.
Yeah.
K: Could you say a little bit more about Dean Trussler?
W: Well, uh uhhh he--I--one thing is I think he thoroughly enjoyed
the students. When Dean Trussler would go, he would always go
to the law fraternity dinners and to anything and he really
thoroughly enjoyed, he liked them.
K: Mm hm.
've
W: The uh I think what ./ said about his uh you know, believing
that-that somehow an exposure to a case or to a point was
very importantras ompared to Teesell's being learned how to
think it--think out a case.
K: Yeah.
W: Uh uhh the thing that would never mean-I never was a star
student, for sure, but I was, you know, uh what would you say,


UF 65AB
Page 17 acm
a solid B something like that and so I didn't ever have to
worry about it. But uh the thing used to uh really puzzle me
is that he would-his final examination questions sometimes
would be very humorous questions.
K: Mm hm.
W: And--and it's all right if you-if you know the answer and you
can do it but to go down, you know, bust a course or-or fail
an examination question and supposed to be laughin' at some
joke he put in the question always, heh, would always heh
but this was just characteristic of Dean Trussler's final
examinations And of course, in those days, everything
depended on the final.
K: Uh huh. So he definitely had a sense of humor about A 2/ v/ A ws C// r,
W: Yeah, yeah, mm hm. And I think that he's--I think that all in
all he was a--he was a pretty good dean for those years be-
cause those were real hard years at the University. And he--
he somehow he held the school together....
K: I'm going to ask you about Professor acftrarl C- _____
later, I don't want you to think I'm skipping over him.
Where did you live while you were a student here?
W: uhh I lived two different places. Part of the--part of the
time I lived in Mrs. Pridgen's house. She rented rooms. And


UF 65AB
Page 18 acm
part of the time in uh a retired minister's home, Brown, I
think his name was on--on uh I think was Fifth Avenue.And
another boarding house, rooming house.
K: Where was Mrs. Pridgens 'located?
W: Umm remember I've been away for ten years! Uh so I'm not sure
but...
K: Well, just relative.
W: Yeah, I'm thinkin', yeah well, it's--it was over the--there
used to be some--some big woods that now I think where the
green- apartments are....
K: Mn hm.
W: I belive Miz Pridgen's house was on--is that Court Street?
Is there-do you know the name--do you know the names f the
streets.in this area?
K: Not as well as I probably n /c ___
W: Anyway, it was uh--I'd say it-it's uh it would be a northeast
of the campus. Uh in where now there's a big group
of green apartments, on the other side of that, north of that.
K: Roughly, how much did it cost to pay board at that time?
W: Ohh, I guess it cost; whatever you could afford. Uhh uhmm
um I would--uh do you --do you mean uh pay room and board,
is that--is that--?
K: Yes;.


UF 65AB
Page 19 acm
W: Yeah, yeah. I would say probably that I think roughly I spent
about a hundred dollars a month.
K: Mm hm.
W: Maybe--maybe not that much, I don't--I don't remember, I would
say probably I spent maybe ohhh fifty- sixty dollars on--on
meals and I don't even remember what-what I paid for my room.
But .:I-I believe that my folks weressending me a check-- I
believe now--I-I'm--it's funny I again this was
forty some years ago. I believe that-I believ hey sent me
a check for about a hundred dollars a month. And then I--
then I-I worked in the law school in the library so I prob-
ably spent more than a hundred a month. But e, tt\/
that I would say.
K: So, you were taking your meals at both of the-
W: The cafet--no, the cafeteria.
K: Oh, did you?
W: Mm hm.
K: Okay, now were--was the cafeteria-
W: Or the Varsity or the College Inn.
K: ---- c--- ommons? Building?
Which is now part of Johnson Hall?
W: Yeah, yeah, mm hm.


UF 65AB
Page 20 acm
K: That was the University cafeteria?
W: That's right, mm hm.
K: Was the Florida Union in existence at that time?
W: Yeah, yeah yeah. I used to--I remember making up my mind that
I was gonna get lower, grades in law school and spend time reading.
-Imve done that at---at Berkeley and I did here. -Iu ed to have
a little library in the Florida Union where I used to spend
I'd say, ohh at least -frn hours or so two-three times a week.
reading in there.
K: Which part of what is now called Arts & Sciences was then the
union? Would that be the southern portion of the building?
W: Noo,..
K: ?-- -
W: Noo0 as I remember uh uhh the southern portion of the building
there were--was uh that was uh billiard tables and things on
the ground floor and then the big lobby and, you know, the-
the lobby there, I belive that probably religion and maybe one
or two other:places were in the--in the north wing. Now, that's
my memory.
K: Mm hm.What were the other two eating establishments that you
mentioned?
W: The Varsity and the College Inn. They were both owned by the same
people.
K: Where was the Varsity located?
W: Varsity was on the corner of uh University and 13th Street. And
that was a very popular place with law students especially.


UF 65AB
Page 21 acm
I see.
K: /Would that be the northwest corner?
W: Of the campus?
K: Of theof the intersection there?
W: Yeah, yeah, the northwest corner.Mm hm.
K: And the College Inn--?
W: Was--
K: Was the same spot.
W: Same spot. Mm hm.
K: The Varsity was the special hangout of the law students?
W: Yeah. there were several in that--in that area. But that--
that I think was probably the--ohhh I can remember like say
we'd uh they had--do they still have the honor system here?
K. The- honor system was uh really altered about a year and a
or
half two years ago. And it does not really exist in the
same form that it did for so many years but there's a
variance of it.
W: Well, I-I can remember this-just the Varsity-the-thinking
off J t s- -that weiou'ld go over to say, get a coke
or something in the middle of examinations. As many times as
as
many yearsAI went there I never heard anybody mention examinat-
ion as we sat around at the cokes or anything like that. Which
I thought was a pretty good sign it was working.


UF 65AB
Page 22 acm
K: Definitely.I think all they do today is on one of the cards
that you fill out at registration you sign a form on there
that says you will not cheat. But I think that's about the
extent of it.What did one do, the law student or a under-
graduate for entertainment in Gainesville at that time?
W: Well, I--I uh guess what you--what you did depended a lot on
how much money you had. Now, I didn't have very much money
obviously if I was working. But uh uhh I think a fairly
high percentage of the law students belonged to fraternities
on the campus. And I can remember I--my fraternity wasn't
on the campus and at that time and they'd invite me to their
- ,v A f r like house parties uh the military ball
weekend was a big-womer so they would have house parties
and theywould go back. Then, they'd drink beer uhh but
um a lot of us were working and didn't have a great deal
of time. Umm but uh I had very few dates except if-if some-
so
some big weekend or something like that uh and"I guess when
I wasn't studying or working or reading I'd drink beer
with....
K: Which fraternity did you belong to?
W: Phi Sigma Kappa.
K: And did they have a house?


UF 65AB
Page 23 acm
W: They didn't--no, they did not here. Uh they came in later I
think they have since gone again.
K: Did a fraternity that did not own it's own house have to
rent a hall or somthing if they--?
/ W: Well, they--usually whjay they did was rent a house.
~': Rent just a private residence?
W: f'tr /fyff) e big old places. um -.#S ,wAy ,E I was
factt advisor for a while and uh I--you're not aware of
those houses until you're looking for one and then it's all
of a$udden you find--start finding places.
K: Now, where did the students go to get their dates? Did many
date local girls or did one alwayss have to go up to Tallahassee?
W: Umm...
K: Just your rough reaction.
W: I would say--I would say that for the big weekends most of
the dates were imported from--from Tallahassee or from I--I
had a girl at i /r.//s whom I had met and-and uh I think--
I think there were local girls, for instance, I-I datedpne
of the law students which--cause I was sorta older, I'd stayed
out a little bit, you know, and then--so I dated one of the
law students. The law students didn't date law--the girl law
students very much. First, one thing is, they were afraid with
Janet Teesll, heh heh heh.Her father was on the faculty!


UF 65AB
Page 24 acm
T@_h__gl L l~a-,Tghum...
K: She was in a difficult position in many ways.
W: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
K: Do you remember ever attending any movies in what's now the
Women's Gym--the old gym on campus?
W: No. In fact when I that's
the--noo, uhh that was uh the women's gym was a little, little
brick--
K: Right.
W: --thing.
K: Mm hm.
W: What was there? Uh I--only time I really ever have remember any-
thing about that it seems to me that was where--that's where
the lockers were when we went swimming. Down at the bottom of
that. That's my only experience there.
K: Was there a uh a real swimming pool for the students?
W: Ohh, yeah.
K: Was that what is now called Florida Pool? Over there in that
?
W: I'm not sure whether it's the same pool or not but I-it was there.
K: Same location?
W: Mm bm.


UF 65AB
Page 25 acm
K: -Now, there's a big wooden building next to the Women's Gym,
and the Infirmary. Was that the basketball--
W: Yeah, mm hm.
K: --court? Did you ever A ?
W: And that's where they had dances, that's where the dances were.
K: Mm hm.Did you--
W: The Military Ball.
K: --ever attend any basketball games in there?
W: Oh, I'm sure I did yeah.
K: Uh, I ask because they're on the verge of tearing it down and
I've personally been curious about it. Did uh they have bleachers
for people to--spectators to sit in? Do you remember?
W: It's funny now um what I'm doing is jumping to conclusions. I
that
can't think of any other place we would sit if there hadn't been
bleachers so I'm just assuming there were uhh yeah I'm sure
there were.
i a lot of
K: But it was thecene ofAsocial activity?
W: Yeah, there was--see, that was the biggest, the biggest floor we
had. Now, I can remember there was some sort of, you know, like
they'd have social occasions in the lounge of the Florida Union.
K: Mm hm.
.W: But that wasn't big enough to--to handle, you know, a big weekend.
K: Mm hm.
W: The dances. And in those-days they'd have the big name bands come
down, they'd sign bands up almost a year ahead of time to play
at the big the Z) ?- weekend, and the Military Ball and


UF 65AB
Page 26 acm
things. And homecoming.
K: Did they have uh campus chapel services as you remember at
that time?
W: Uhh if they did uh I'm--I wasn't aware of it or I'd say it didn't
that
make a enough of an impression soAI remembered. Now,I do--I
believe that there were--that the uh the various denominations
had little-little uh had little uh chapels around the campus
and had chaplains. But I don't--I don't remember any actually
being on the campus.
K: I guess that's mostly a uh function of Dr. Murphree's time.
W: Yeah, I would uh....
had
K: Do you remember if an undergraduateAto belong to uh the
ROTC program at the time that you were here?
W: Oh, I'm sure they did.
K: They all did?
W: Yeah. mm hm. Unless you got excused from-for health reasons or
something like that.
K: Do you'know if they still had buglers around to sound the revelry
in the morning?
W: Well...
K: Since you didn't live on campus...
So
W: That's right.4I just know--I don't know.
K: Mm hm. What services or facilities were there in uh the union?


UF 65AB
Page 27 acm
-You mentioned uh a little library or a study area?
W: There was a ibrary-very nice little library.Browsing library.
K: Was there anything like a soda fountain or--?
W: Uhh I believe there was but what's--where I'm having a hard
time some of this cause there was a fairly--I was away during
the war years and then came back so there wasn't--there wasn't
that much of a--of a lapse uh in terms of total time spent
between kWtn when I left and when I came back. But uh there--
there -I'm--I'm relatively certain there was a soda fountain
and I know that there were the billiard tables there. I didn't
play them but I remember that that big area uh uh I think
there werelittle--little meeting rooms if you wanted to have a
meeting about something why you could--you could use ,one
of the little meeting rooms.
K: Did people still follow the--the tradition custom of always
speaking to everyone they passed? Or was it already too large?
W: Uh no, what I would say, and this is just my feeling is that, you know,
with an all male uh campus uh I--I wasn't aware of speaking or
not speaking, I just--I think you felt like itr just wasn't nec-
essary. If you wanted to say something to somebody as he was
going by you's do it.You wouldn't,you know,there wasn't a feel-
ing as--I don't even say hello to my son when I see himSpass-
ing --if I pass him back and forth! The first time-but after


UF 65AB
Page 28 acm
that, I know--I belive it was more like just an assumption
that--that you want to talk to somebody you would. Of course,
I will say that the law students being older--being graduates
and being over in that corner uh weren' is much involved in--
I happened to --room with an undergraduate who was taking
advanced ROTC and things like that uh and-and uh I know
his involvement. I got involved with the rest of the campus,
more or less, through him. More than my own experience Aause
I was working and as I say, the--the law school I think act-
ually when I graduated I think there were only like about
around a hundred or a hundred and twenty-five students in
the. school. And we were just over there by ourselves.
K: Did they have the custom when you were a law student of
uh baskets of apples around campus?
W: Yeah, yeah, mm hm.
K: And was that a successful operation in terms of the honor
business?
W: As far as I know it was. As far as I know I-I'm sure that--
that--what--my guess would be this. That there would be days
when people would take apples and not put a nickel in. But
then the idea would be to come back with a nickel another
day or put a dime in the next time you got an apple. But I-
these--far as I know the-some a/e ag-/ / students ran it and


UF 65AB
Page 29 acm
I don't think he could of run it very long if it, you know...
K: If it didn't pay.
W: Yeah.
K: Now~when you paid your fees did the money that you spent at
that time cover the costs of your books for law school?
W: No, hm mm.
K: It did not? Where did you obtain the books that you needed?
Was there a university bookstore?
W: Yeah, there-there were. Actually um -
K: Excuse me for just a second so I can flip this over.
(END OF SIDE 1)


UF 65AB-TAPE A/Side 2
Page 30 acm
K! ... n ___ both Dr. Proctor and myself. Very unfortun-
ate when you stop. Okay, you were going to tell me about--
W: Well, actually by the time I got there uh we didn't have to
buy very many new books. We'd buy them from each other.
They--the custom was really what'd you do was buy a usually a,
second hand book from one of the ge,~A who 'd had the course
and then uh a set of what we called cans. Which are little
uh I don't know whether they still use them but we would.
There'd be little--little briefs of--of the cases. And uh
if you were conscientious yoread both the case--the full
case in the uh case book and the can. If you weren't, some-
times you'd go to class just with the cans. And the cans
were sort of semi-illegal or-nobody-everbody just assumed
that you had them.The real conscientious students would
brief their own cases. I used to say I would-I would
brief one course. Say, if I took four or five courses t4at -/A/ TI-
a2uuL taf h .i onAge.,
Pw~ic "i~e~ oB. Just-just to stay in practice. But the rest
of them I'd read and underline and then use a can when I
went to class.
<2C~I'u C yelOt -
K: Okay,now Wihen did you complete your program'and the en4ior-
law degree dce;? oc. /,{,/ j."
W: 1938.


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 31 acm
K: In the spring?
W: Mm hm.
K: Did you take the bar exam at that time?
W: At that time we didn't need to. We -we took a character iL44n
they had to--you had to fill out a lot of things and
I believe have an interview but then after--after the
j a az / I ar examiition thought that you were uh you
know thought that you satisfied the character requirements
and the law--and the law xscszs~f//, you had the aca-
demic requirements they admitted you for which I was very
thankful.
K: Heh heh heh.Who were the people who gave you thicharacter exam?
W: You know, I don't know.
K: Well, I--I don't mean-- ;'" f: ~ c"a' f) tO t w / iiC, d6 t, H 4-4 r-) C S,
/ /
W: I'm not even sure--I'm not even sure--no, no, I'm sure it
would not have been. And I couldn't even swear that--that I
even went for an interview. I would--somehow I would think
I would have gone to--for an interview. I do remember that we
had to fill out applications of a list of whole lot of in-
formation about our lives. Uh um and I remember going up to
Tallahassee for--for a not a swearing in but for some sort of
a session. But I don't know whether they asked me any questions
or whether we had lunch or what. I just don't remember.
K: But you would probably think it would have been some members
of the bar?


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 32 acm
yeah
W: Yeah, oh4I'm sure because the law faculty had done its part
on just with a diploma.
K: Now, once you had your degree what was your situation as far
as working here at the University?What-what did you do hre?
W: Then I was--I was the Assistant Law Librarian and instructor
in law and I taught course in legal :rry
taught a course in legal ibliography and one in Legislation.
K: And did you continue that split definition the rest of the
time St you stayed here that first time /IA 7-/7,,^c ?
W: Well, yes, now as I--maybe thatlI-didn't teach the first-
year. The dean may have said, you know, like you're too
close to the school--or I'll tell you what I did do uh what
I would do is substitute uh Judge was ill for a
long time and I--I took over his course as I believe that
first year and then the second year's when I got legal bib-
liography and legislation. Then I transferred up to University
of Pittsburgh and did the same thing up there.
K: Did you ever work in the old Florida State Museum?
W: Nol/
in
K: Okay, I asked because I had foundj\doing the research for in-
terviewing you the name of Stanley West.
W: Thats is--that's uh--uh that's uh--
K: Another fellow?


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 33 acm
W: Yes. And it's been a confusing thing. Almost it is Im this day.
K: But he is no relation to you?
W: No. I,in fact,I never met him.
K: Mm hm. Now, who were you working with in the law library? Was
Mrs. Pridgen still the only other person?
W: Mm hm. Only other full time person. Now that's my memory.
K: Mm hm.
W: At least there's no one else as you know like you just have a
picture of-of everybody. There's no one else that I can remem-
ber who was a--a fulltime typist and then I had student assist-
ants....
K: Mm hm.
W: Uhh bu there were just the two of us.
K: What were your duties within the library? Were you /rj e 4frc $ C7
reference librarian?
W: Well, I just was it. I did just everything. Uhh I catalogued the
books, I ordered the books as reference librarian, I shelved
the books, heh heh heh heh.
K: How did--how did students check out books from the library at
that time, or could they? In other words there was no computer
system, so,...
W: No! there wasn't. Umm the--you'd think as a librarian for as many


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 34 acm
years I been a librarian this would have been an important
thing- -77 X ^J 'C2 ^/s-
note
we did was write books the--in the--write your name in the/book
on the desk.
K: Mm hm.
W: I beieve that's probably what we did. But there were a lot of
them that you couldn't takeout. You couldn't take out the re-
and
portsAyou couldn't take out the law reviews uh and actually
there-the people didn't take out--the professors took them up
to their offices. But the--the students very rarely took--took
books out. I--I--I don't-fact I--course I spent so much in the
library there would be not very much need for me to take a
book out. But I don't remember ever having, you know, kind of
like picturing back I don't ever remember having a law book
in my room.
K Mm hm. You really didn't have vo/ books to lend out did you?
W: Well, uh no. We didn't have very many books. But what I was think-
ing of was like the horn books and things that--that you'd read
to uh get ready for finals and things like that. But we did-
the uh what's they do is we'd--they'd keep the library open-
all the whole building open virtually all night long.-JJm about
uh beginning about two or three weeks before finals and uh we


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 35 acm
would just--just stay there all night long and study. I'd uh
it would amaze me because I--as compared to Michigan I didn't
think that the men studied as hard down here as they did up
there. I really worked very hard up there. And most everybody
didall through the semester. A lot of students here had jobs
uhh and really they would go through the motions of studying
but really didn't --didn't study like they did in Ann Arbor.
But uh I remember the first time I--during Christmas vacation
I'- went away from the campus and I got back thinking that
when I got back from Christmas vacation I'd start studying
hard and everybody was already there! They--they had come
back early from Christmas and--and the building was just lit
up all night long with people studying. It was just a intense
uh cram--cramming thing.
K: What would have been the regular hours during the year for
the law school library?
W: Oh, I would say from eight o'clock in the morning till ten o'
clock at night.
K: And open on both Saturday, and Sundays?
W: Yeah-I--I know it was opened Sunday--I'm-I uh--I--I suspect
we didn't open on Saturday-- Saturday night.
I don't-I--I-funny I jsut don't remember--in fact, I don't


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 36 acm
remember working uh Saturday afternoons-I don't think I did.
But in those days everybody worked Saturday morning and we would
have a -f/iA rz .-i l, '/ day e4th. tA)-
K: I have the names of some of the other librarians on campus at
that time and I don't know if you had, excuse me, all that much
contact with them but I'd like to mention them and see if you
could give me some reaction again to them. Did you know Ida
Cresap in the experimental station library?
W: Mm hm.
K: She was here for a long time, wasn't she?
W: She was here after I became director of the libraries.
K: What kind of person was she?
W: Well....
K: Personality?
W: Well, I would say--I would say that-that she--she really was
involved in the-in the agriculture experiment station. In
those days and probably I suspect knowing people it may still
be true--there was a pretty much of a distinction between the
experiment station and the College of Agriculture. Which is a
definite part of the--the educational part of the University.
And the experiment station which was largely supported with
federal funds did a lot of research. The library there was
really--it was not the agriculture library in those days. Now
when I came back after I became Director of Libraries we made
it for both but uh in the beginning it was a library for the


UF 65 AB
Page 37 acm
agriculture experiment station and so she-she really was-
was loyal and devoted to the experiment station uh and its
C(rC1Cr7 about
research programs. I tSisk she hadAas long a tenure as any
librarian um in the/.niversity s ever had. Have you ever com-
pared her dates? Did you check heidates?
K.] Well, I know she was here for an awful long time, I believe
from the twenties through your own tenure so uh I don't know
if she's here more years than Miss -Iredn was but,you know,
I haven't....
W: Well, yes-- Coiu !L t,' Miss aSheen didn't--is she
still here now?
K: She just retired at the end of Iune.
W: Ohh.
K: /Zr(/ 2 />/ '/^c / a L if 4 lf e/'etPk.
W: Because she went away--she was in Pittsburgh while I was--was
there and then she was in Detroit for awhile and I brought her
back after I became /I ICt f,_t, uhh....
K: I--I was going to ask you if you knew if Miss Cresap was a pro-
fessionally trained librarian or not?
W: Noo-
K: Someone had told me that she was not and the follow-up was going
to be if that had ever been any uh source of problems for you at


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 38
acm
a later date.
W: Uh huh, noo, uh uh not--my--I-I'll tell you uh my impression is
that she was not.
K: Mm hm.
W: But administratively the fact that she did or didn't have a
librarian degree was not the problem. The problem was the
divided loyalty between the--the experiment station and the-
the other part of the University and--and-and the whole Univ-
ersity library structure. And I don't think it interfered very
much withb-I doubt whether the people who used the library even
knew that this was a problem. But the problem wasn't whether
she had a degree or not, heh.
K: Did you know a woman named Dorothy Lloyd at that time?
W: Was it Dorothy or Gwen Lloyd?
K: Ehhh it could be Gwendolyn .---- ..r.- .
W: Why would you uh--
K: -- ~ haven't gotten it written down here.
W:
K:
W:
K:
W:
Uh huh, uh well uh I--there was-
--was she a reference librarian?
out
WentAto Berkeley? Left here?
I don't know.really....
Yes, she--I--this was the one. I think that she left uh well, I


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 39 acm
n__T"S~
really think thatcI knew her as a student, see, because as a
the
student in and as sort ofAlibrarian apparent uhh in the law
school I worked with a--with the University librarians my T
arefule y and I believe that there was a Gwendolyn Lloyd who
left here to go be a librarian, I believe in the same school
of public administration that I went to when I, you know,when I
was out there. I believe that--that's the--that's the only
Lloyd that I would remember.
K: Mm hm, okay. How about Elizabeth Jernigan?
W: Mm hm, I knew her. Fact she was a cataloguer and I worked with
her when I was cataloguing the law library. Then she left and
I think went up--there was a state library in Tallahassee, I
think is where she-she left here to--to go up there.
K: Can you tell me anything about her personality or her character?
Did you know her that well?
W: Uhh well, uh yeah I think I knew her--that is I certainly knew her
better than I did Gwendolyn Lloyd. Uhh I think I liked her very
much. She certainly was helpful to me.
K: Mm hm.
W: Uhh and in fact, I went to library school under protest. Now I
took the law school course uh law library course because the dean
had asked me to and I thought it was valuable. I hadn't really
'r


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 40 acm
intended to go on to library school cause the dean had never
epersnsSd--specified that and I actually thought I would
end up teaching in-in and get out of the library business
when the Depression was over and they needed some more teachers
but uh the-the uh-the lady who was the--the uh librarian
uh at that time made me feel like if I didn't have a library
degree I really didn't have a right to have a-an opinion
about what to do about a library! So I went on ahead and got
the degree at Columbia. But--but uh um Elizabeth Jern--Jernigan
did, she was younger and I mean she just accepted me as some-
body who was trying to learn how to be a librarian and uh I
appreciated that.
K: Did you know uh I guess it was Miss 'E
W: Well, she was the one...
K: She was the librarian that you _-------?__
W: Yes, she--yeah. She was the one who-who uh-and it's probably
a good thing. She was right. But uh when you're uh twenty-five
twenty-six years old you-you dEaIt you know you think you got
the world by the tail, heh heh heh, you don't like to be told!
Ieh. hieiheh!!That you're not qualifiedfor these things.
K: Right.
W: But uh I remember as-uh now Miss i tte- of course) I think was


UF 65 AB/Side 2
Page 41 acm
uh was really a fine--she had been a reference librarian before she
became librarian. And she was only librarian, I think, a short
time before she was killed in that airplane crash. And uh prob-
ably for that reason she--she-people still remember that!
That was in the days--well, people didn't fly as much in those
to
days and to flysouth America was even more unusual'and uh so
c'\;5 Mwas a great shock to everybody.
K: Was she on vacation, or was she--?
W: My--my guess is she'd be on vacation--had been on vacation
because uh nowadays they have librarians meetings in--all over
the world. But in those days they--they didn't and,as a matter
of fact, that far long ago there'd only be a relatively few
libraries in South America that an American librarian would
have ^j A
K: Wouldn't she have been atleast a middle-aged woman at the time
that you were Ah er ?
W: Uhh noo, uh it's funny--I remember her. I don't think of her as
was
a middle-aged woman. She A tall and dark and graceful lady
uh her eyes are very alive uh things--so I--I don't think of
her as--as uh as being if we think of middle-aged as say being
slowing down or something like that, no, she hadn't reached
that point. But exactly how old she was my guess is that she


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 42j acm
was in her late thirties or early forties.
K: I may be way off in my Arhloa1/ tl/ as far as she goes.
I thought she was perhaps a decade older than that but I!m
not sure so....
W: Well, she may be! See, I don't uh....
K: She certainly didn't look it afeft K/ yva_ ?
probably I
W: No, I don't think so but we\could find out in university re-
cords. But the library would probably have it. But uh I
certainly don't think of her as being--and you'd think she'd
be in her fifties?
K: I--I guess I just have the impression from some of the other
interviews I've done Cb the library staff that she was one
of Miss Miltinore's people.
W: Yes, she was.
K: But maybe that was ~-
W: But everybody wasn't like Miss Miltimore! Hah hah hah hah.
K: ..
W: Noo, she was uh I'm sure she was uh uhh well, there was a gener-
ation of librarians uh who were very like I told you she made me
feel that if I didn't have the--the library degree I just really
wasn't-I didn't belong to the club. Um I remember a lady of
about her same general age who was the uh the university librarian


'UF 65 AB/Side 2
Page 43 acm
at uh at uh Florida State University. And I remember I got a
telephone call one day from her very much upset because we had
was
hired one of her uh actually hen the library school at--at
FSU was--was new. And we appointed a girl uh from the library
,i A,
school and we needed somebodyAknew Italian and they gave her
a special course in Italian in the summer so--and I hired her.
And I can remember the--the librarian up there so shocked.
A
You mean to say you hired a gradute of an unaccredited lib-
rary school!\
K: Hah hah hah!
W: It was just like the girl didn't know anything because the
school hadn't been accredited! You know what I mean? It--it's
uh their--their just these--again uh your not supposed to
hire people from unaccredited schools. Y mr=-.'-f's.fr. n.>le
, ......."a----.........t! But uh I hired the person
not--not the uh school.
K: VWry super professional attitude.
W: Yeah, uh so it just uh--she would have been the same-the
same general school probably Miss Etfe would have been
and)in fact)they were probably in the same general age group.
K: Did you ever have an opportunity uh then or in later years to
meet Miss Milthmore?


UF 65 AB/Side 2
Page 44 acm
W: I haQea feeling that I met Miss Miltpmore but if you would
press me and say where and when did I meet Miss MiltAmore
I couldn't-- but I have an impression of a little grey lady
kind of spritely uh maybe she came back to visit me some-
time or another but that's all. If I did meet her it
would have been just a very superficial thing. Miss Milta-
more wouldn't have had very much in common with me, heh heh.
I wouldn't have--it would have been just because she had,
you know, been the librarian here for so long, I would have
just, you know, said, I'm very happy to mebe you and that'd
be it.
K: I'm sure you've heard a lot of stories about her.
W: Oh, yeah, uh ....
K: What kind of a reputation did she have at that time? Her attitude--?
W; Well, 7/ eC bv tuh I'm trying to be careful and not be
uh a male chauvinist--
K: Heh heh heh.
W: ---attitude. But there was a--this whole uh generation of ladies
who were very intelligent who wer very straightlaced uh who uh
thought that if a rule was a rule that was it. Uh uhh and my guess
ap-
is she would--would try toApoint people who also had this attitude.
I remember one of the stories, I don't know whether any--any of


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 45 acm
the interviews about the library that you've ever-but the
story about Miss Miltimore--Miss Milt1more wouldn't let the
uh let the professor take the journal out of the library
and uh so one day she came in the big reading room and found
a dead fish on some--on a slab, heh eh heh heh ,on the library
table with the professor with hiijournal heh heh heh up open
to where he could compare the fish with the drawing!Heh heh
heh and she--heh heh--she let him take the journal out! Hah
hah hah.
K: Heh heh heh heh. No, I hadn't heard that WiSt one before!
W: Well, and this was the sort of thing that uh the stories that
would go around about her.
K: Very possessive about the library and the collection.
W: Mm hm, I--I'm sure. And actually uh um in hindsight I'm not
sure that--that uh there wasn't a lot to be said for this posses-
siveness. Now, right now I think most of us who went into
library work say,let's say just pre-World War II and after
World War II period went in thinking of the library as an edu-
cational, you know, an integral part of the educational-part
of the system and all that sort of thing. Uhh I think we were
then we probably were too easy about people stealing books and
.uh taking them out of the librar and wearing them out and tear-
ing out, cutting out pages and stuff. Umm some--some of the


UF 65 AB/Side 2
Page 46 acm
.damage that's been dome in the last thirty years can never be
-can just never be uh repaired! And it's not only here it's just
every place because part of it is the attitude that of the
students that--that--I don't think the average student would
think he was a thief--think of himself as a thief or as being
a vandal but he--they're damn sure selfish some of them are!
Wgen they--when they rip out pages and--and uh steal books
that can't be replaced or that other students can't use when
they do that, well, that's an aide you uwoutfj.l /ifl W./ f '?9.g'
would V
K: Well, let me follow through on that for a second uhAyou say that
was
this/" a more ,well, obvious development in the fifties or
sixties or would you relate it to the people coming back right
after the second world war or was there a certain--a certain year
or a certain decade when it seemed more obvious to you?
W: Oh, I think it's--I think it's that the--I would say the last
5 years.
K: Last five years?
W: Mm based on what my own experience and--and uh on comparing notes
with other librarians.I'm going to have to make a telephone call-
I didn't know where--how long--
(BREAK IN TAPE)
K: Okay, um now,. let'sisee', how long then did you Xa Ul this


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 47 acm
split job at the University in the--in the law library and also
teaching?
W: Two years.
K: Two years. From uh-
W: Nineteen thirty TV nineteen forty.
K: --the spring of thirty-eight till the what, the spring of forty?
W: Spring.
K: Okay, uh I guess this also might be a good time to ask you a
little bit about your own uh family since we're talking about
that. I understand you are married and have two children?
W: ', Mm hm.
K: Is that right? And what's your wife's name?
W: Caroline -Geehrel West.
K: Mm hm. And she uh is the daughter of Bia---
W: A GCchreil.
K: Now, uh I'm 4ittle mixed up. Was the gentleman who was her
her father also the SupriemiCourt justice?
W: Mm hm.
K: I see. So after he left the Florida Stpremem Court he came
here as a professor?
W: Yeah, at the law school.
K: And how long was he here?Roughly.


UF 65 AB/Side 2
Page 48 acm
W: Oh, ho, oh....ahhh....
K: I think he got off of the court // 1916? Or around there?
W: Well, now then--so, my guess would be that he--he came probably
in the--in the twenties.
K: Mm hm.
W: Uhh and he stayed here until about nineteen-I think he uh uh
till uh let's see we went to--uh I--he must have been on the
faculty until uh nuh around nineteen forty or forty-one or
forty-two.
K: Mm hm.
W: Uhh uh because Dee my wife was raised here but I--I-I have
an idea that she was in the--that it was in the twenties
cause he--he practiced in Jacksonville for awhile after that.
K: Mm hm.
W: Then he came down here. But it was when Dr.--Dr. Murphree's
the one who brought him here.
K: I see.
W: Kind of a personal thing between judge and Dr. Murphree.
K: Uh huh. Let me ask you how you met your wife. Was she also a
law student?
W: Noo, uh well, let's see, I guess the way I met her was
when I mentioned judge Gocrelr11 being ill for a long time that
7


UF 65 AB/Side 2
Page 49 acm
first Fall.
K: Mm hm.
W: And what I would--and I'd-they'd asked me to take over his
courses and I would go down in the afternoons and talk over
the cases with him. Cause he was quite old even then, he was
past seventy then. And I would go over doen and talk-talk
over the cases with him and sometimes Dee would be there. I
guess that's the way....
-7-,60 60h e,
K: I see. ir*+t1 you struck -/b ysop ,t^'' 8ii,-
W: Mm hm.
K: And when did you get married?
W: Got married in 1939.
K: Now uh-
W: May of 1939.
K: Would you tell me your children'd uh names and uh their oc-
cupations?
W: Well, Courtney, our daughter is married to Nath Doughtie who,.
K: Who currently is running_
W: Ha ha hah hah. Vote for him! Uh and she has two children-they
have two children um a boy and a girl. And David, our son, is
an attorney and he's in the same law firm with Nath--Nath


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 50 acm
Doughtie and--and David West and Jim Salter and Jim Feiber.
K: Mm hm.
W: Salter, West, Doughtie & Feiber. And he has a little girl
Caroline.
K: Now, why did you leave Gainesville and go to Pittsburgh? What
is that stor Well, uh huh! Sounds like a very little bit of
\J money but it was a little, you know, four or five hundred
dollars more a year and the man who had taught the course
uh at Columbia, Miles Price, who'd been sort of my professional
godfather for as long as he lived after that uh recommended
it uh. They had the uh Pittsburgh was then the man who had
been the president of the uh University of Iowa. uh and uh uh
retired from presidency and gone there to be dean to build
up the school and they were recruiting faculty and I think
that Miles Price felt that Pitt was in those days--I think
Florida now is Better law school than-- v Pitt iitU
..a;s. He thought it would be good experience and--and uh
it was a twelve months job instead of a nine months job
here--the nine months job "v j more money.
K: Mm hm. So you heard about it through Professor Price?
W: Uh huh.
K: Uh huh.


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 51 acm
W: He was the law librarian at Columbia.
K: Mm hm.
W: And uh he was the one--well, actually he was responsible for my
going--I left Pitt to go to Columbia. And very funny way, my
coming back down here after the war.
K: Let-
W: He had always told me not-he said son: now don't you ever--in
this academic world--don't you ever apply for a job! If you
want a job let me know. Heh heh heh heh. That was the way it
was done!
K: And with his contacts?
W: Mm hm.
K: He always heard--
W: Mm hm. Yeah--
K: --of everything that was going on?
W: Yeah.
K: I see. Now your--your position at Pitt was as law librarian?
W: And--and-and uh uh instructor in law.
K: I see. And was it also split half time the way it had been?
W: Well, actually there's--uh the first part of the war and I
taught almost full--full teaching load and--and did the lib-
rary sort of on the side because of uh it was uh--what they


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 52 acm
Were trying to do is to--is to uh graduate people as quickly
as possible and they just bunched everything up. They'd
shorten the terms cause nobody knew from--really from one
week to the next whether he-was going to B called up.
K: Right.
W: And then I left.
K: You mentioned that uh they were trying to build the law school
up at that time. What was the relative size of the Pittsburgh
law school as against the one /&oe
W: It was a larger school.
K: Much larger?
W: And--and it was in +rand new--what they call a (cthedral of
larning vS js _just hu hjhge school!
K: Uh huh.
W: And they uh had quite +it of money to spend on the library
and uh on this kind of--what they were trying to do--Dean
Gilmore was trying to do then--what they really didn't get a-
until
round to doing a lot of schools /\ after the war. That is
bring more contact with the bar and having dinners and things
To me it was wonder--wonderful experience--
K: Mm hm.
W: --but that was--really--what it really was--was Miles Price


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 53
acm
thought that that would be a good thing for me to get some more
experience ~z /d Florida. Cause I'd gone to law school
here and stayed right on.
K: Mm hm. Now when did you go into the service? And which branch
did you go into it?
W: Navy. And--and I went from Pitt to Columbia--see, I left Pitt
in 1942 rstayed two years there-and then went to-to ntf j4
Columbia as uh assistant to the director of the university
libraries. That's how I got out of the law part of the thing.
K: I see.
V: Cause um--but again it was Miles Price, the law librarian,
who sort of when they were-the man who had been there had
gone in the army and he-I think his idea was that--that my
law training would be--provide good-good background for
administrative work and toS administration.And I stayed
there for just about a year till--till I went in Navy in
the Fall of forty-three.
K: Okay. Let me back up. I think you said that you started going
to library school in Columbia in the summer of thirty-seven?
W: I had my first uh--the first um course was in the summer of
thirty-seven. Yeah. And then--then--then uh I don't think I
went the summer of thirty-eight-maybe I did. Anyway, I-I--


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 54 acm
the whole thing was in the summers and I--I didn't get my law
degree-my library degree till forty-two so it'd a been--and
it take--take four summers I think.
K: Mm hm. Ahh, what was the reason you chose Columbia? AS your
libraf school. A
W: Well, tih-ac t 'W of course, is where /had the first--the
first course.
K: Mm hm.
W: But then I think at that time it was considered to be the best
law school--libray school in the country.
K: So, you were impressed with what you had seen of it?
W: Oh, yeah. It's uh Columbia-was uh uh a--one of the very
first ones established and then Columbia--the libraries
were very good and the faculty was very good.
K: Mm hm.
W: But partly was because-cause of Miles Price and....
K: Mm hm. Had you heard of him before you went to take that
initial course?
W: No. I didn't even know the course--I had absolutely no idea
of being a--a librarian when I started law school uh uh the
--somebody uh had--must have sent sociation of iawchools
must have sent out a notice to the deans--it was the first time


UF 65AB/Side 2
page 55 acm
a course like that had ever been offered.
K: Mm hm.
W: Because--and that was sort of in response to this uh edict on
the part of the association that you had to have a trained
full-time librarian.
K: So, you made that initial contact that first summer that you
went to Columbia?
W: Mm hm.
K: And after that you uh became very good friends?
W: Mm hm.
K: Did uh you uh enjoy living in uh New York at that time?
W: Yeah, I did. We do--didn't actually--we lived out in West-
chester.uh and I took a little train in from where we lived
\ &~-, down to ust part of the way and then take the sub-
way down to the--down to Columbia. And I liked-I liked--I
think New York's--I guess it would still be that way but
certainly in those days it was an exciting place to live.
K: Mm hm.
W: And the university was-so much happening and everything and
I-I know--we--we lived--it was kind of out in the country
/^ .'ft-,, /H/c -The bad thing about it was tak-
ing an hour to get therein the morning, an hour to get home


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 56 acm
at night.
K: Now when did you receive your degree from Columbia?
W: Forty-two.
K: In--in what month?
W: Well, uh let's say, October. I didn't even, I mean they just
mailed me the--the degree. I didn't go _~ *ft ite.tJ~, yi'zf7
K: You--you just finished your last summer-
W: Yeah.
K: --and that was it?
W: Mm hm.
K: I see. And that was what, a master of library science?
W: Actually, no, it was afifth year degree. It was like law school.
You had--it was a professional degree--you had to have a--a
A.B. to get in but uh it was a fifth year uh bachelor's .
But since that time it's sort of interesting uh it's-they've
--the librarians have done just about what the lawyers have
done. You know what they did--used to be all-my degree in
law was a bachelor of law! Then afterward they--they sent us
our diploma saying that we were pt uh juris doctors.
K: Mm hm.
W: Well, the library .5cAoo/l was done the same thing.It
was a bachelors but since that time they've converted them all


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 57 acm
to masters.
K: Very convenient.
W: Heh, yeah.
K: Now, when--when did you start your duties as the uh assistant
to the Columbia library director?
W: Ahh that would be--that would have been in the Fall of uh
again I believe--I -strikes me like September or October
of uh forty-t ee A. 0
K: Mm hm. And-and what were the duties that you had in that
position?
W: Well, I--uh I started out as what they call--was the--the
executive assistant to the director of libraries. But uh and
in that oh capacity I just did I guess what--what administrative
assistants do just kind of what the boss doesn't want to do
or what he thinks you can do.
K: Mm hm.
W: Then was sort of--uh funny circumstance. Dr. Williamson who
was the famous oldtime dean and in fact was the responsible
for the modern concept of library schools was getting ready to
retire and uh what-I was there I guess for oh say three-four
months, two or three months, and he had a-every letter he
wrote uh or that he got passed over my desk so I would know


UF 65ab/Side 2
Page 58 acm
what--what he was doing um and uh one day he called me in and
said that he was getting ready to retire and he'd had some leave
time coming and this was about I guess before Christmas actual-
ly maybe a little bit after Christmas and he said, West, he
said, t'm just gonna leave it with you.lUhh and so there'd be
big blocks of time when he just didn't show up at all.
K: 1Mm hm.
W: Ah and uh nobody ever told me what to do,I just did it.and I
found that I was practically in a-it's hard now looking back
the
having had, you know,4years of administrative experience I've
hadlI--I--I look back to see--I--I really--I guess I was mak-
ing a lot of administrative decisions that--that--of course
it was at /well-established library, a big one. And there
--the department heads were very senior but I--I-I was it.
K: You were functioning.
W-: Mm hm. And uh I remember the new man who became the director
of libraries after that who had been the director of library
University of Illinoisv-Carl White asked me what I did, what
my duties were and I said and I said I
didn't think I'd had a one bit of ct/yr authority. No-
body's ever told me to do things. But nobody had-and -gt z >/s.
. .. erybody else to do it.


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 59 acm
K: Heh heh heh.
W: So about all I had, heh heh, was de facto authority!
K: Mm hm.
W: Ehhh....
K: But they had to be done.
W: Mmmm. Decisions had to be made and budgets had to be prepared,
people had to be hired.
K: Now, at that time did you have any chance to do any teaching?
WE Oh, no, no.
K: This was just a full-time, more than ful%-time...?
W: Oh, it was! But it was fun. Again, it's the--the wonderful thing
is when you're that age, I guess I was about twenty eight or
twenty-nine then, um Mafi ge year certain temperament
you know you just--you don't--heh heh--there's nothin' that you
won't try! Eh heh heh.
K: Where did they send you in--in the Navy? Or were you fortunate
enough not to have to go overseas?
W: No, I was-I was in uh what they call an AKA which was an attack
transport ship.
K: Mm hm.
W: And we were out in the Pacific. We were out in--the ship was
built in--in uh Oakland and I steyed stationed at Treasure Isle--


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 60 acm
uh first I went up to--to King's Point and then Harvard I
S a~ Ccv,. zt,,A, T/officer to stay for oh a couple of months
for indoctrination afmiT-gs King's Point, New York. And then
up to Harvard for four months and then out to San Francisco
to wait for the ship to be built and then we went out to uh
4-e k, ~- wooy the Phillipines and to uh Okina vQ
,X to -finmieammtr and then after the war out to China.
* K So, was that the first time I assume you--you had been in
the. far east?
W: Yeah.
K: Did you get a chance to go through or by Hawaii at the time?
W: Yeah, we were in Hawaii. That's how I got to like Hawaii.
K: Mm hm.
W: Uh we were in--we were--it was a new ship and it was relatively
fast and uh we were scheduled to go to--to uh Iwo Jima O-N
that invasion and tz //iA. /Io pulled us out and sent us
back to--to uh to get her a cargo and parts and things like
that and so I--I was--we were in--we were in Honolulu a--a A_
Pearl Harbor quite a bit and then after--at the end of the
war 4e were hit out at uh Okinawa. And we had just been--had
to come in and then patched up and were--just finished our
shakedown and were getting uh had um high priorities to go


JF 65AB/Side 2
Page 61
acm
K:
W:
K:
W:
K:
W:
K:
W:
K:
W:
K:
W:
back lt-I M a I J-I out we didn't know where uhh out in
the Pacific again and we were going under the Golden Gate Bridge
literally when the--the whistles started blowing and the war
was over
Ahhh.
In August. But-so they still didn't catch up with us and uh
so we loaded day and night for seven days uh in Oakland and
left again right on out to Pearl Harbor.
Mm hm.
And then we sat for a month. And so I would come out-I would
go out to the university and read and--and uh play tennis and
drink beer, heh heh.
Nice life!
But we were there for a month, so. Thetwe went out to China.
Took the Marine Flyers out to China.
Uh huh. When were you discharged from the Navy?
Uhh really,well, just before Christmas in nineteen forty-five.
Did you go back --_ ?
Let's see, what--what we did, we got into Norfolk uh from China-
Uh huh.
-uh just before Christmas. Yeah. In nineteen forty-five. {I
in
officially didn't get out cause I'd gone from New York and I
had to go up to New York to get out. Uhh but--but uh I left
the ship 1A- 4 // A/dz just before Christmas in nine-


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 62 acm
teen forty-five.
K: Mm hm. And then did you go back to work at Columbia?
W: Mm hm. I went back as associate law librarian. They ~,/ 7
new director, they'd gotten somebody to take my place as admin-
istrative assistant.
K: Mm hm.
W: But I became Miles Prices's assistant, you know the man.
K: Uh huh.
W: Uhhlfact they had me--asked me to come for an interview during
A
the war. .Li/ /at ulj one time when weawere l- /& ,7 V/.t ic
-- --. /
c; we got hit r _-we were back.
K: Mm hm. Now was this again a full-time library position? Or, did
you have the opportunity to teach?
W: No, no, this was full-time library.
K: Now, how did you getErom Columbia to Gainescille again?
W: Well, uh they were looking for--there had been an acting lib-
rarian uh Mr. Hill had retired uh and they were looking for
someone and uh this was Dee's home, my wife's home and uh
we'd been happy here.Soae people suggested that I apply uh
and uh while we were kind of stewing around about it and fin-
ally this Miles Price l/,)c e.,// .// a been very nice. He'd waited
for at least, you know, a year or so without filling the position


UF 65AB/Side 2
Page 63 acm
for me to come back and finally says sen, do you really want to
^ //- > \\
go down there? And I said yes, I think I do. So he went over> apv,
_________the same way. I never did apply for the job. He
went over to Carl White who was the-the -4ifr-'--1 L lZ
dean of the library school and director of libraries and I
the
--I think he wrote to Dr. Tigert who was president and then
7L P eyafed[~k came up to interview me up to Columbia.
He was the chairman of the library committee then. Uhh and
I think he recommended to Dr. Tigert to appoint me. Dr.
Tigert asked me down for an interview and thef ent on from
there. So we came;. started in November,the eighteenth, I
think it was, nineteen forty-six.
K: Was that the first time you had met Professor Reedrick? Or was
he,-
W: Yeah.
^--- -- C-l---^^
W: Was the first--no--that-was the first time I'd met him.
K: Let me change this while we go on to Gainesville so we don't have
to stop.
(END OF TAPE A/SIDE 2)


UF 65AB/Side 1--TAPE B
Page 64 McKenzie
K: Had there been uh an acting libraryea between Mr. Hill and you?
W: Yeah.
K: Who was that?
W: Nell Barmore.uhh B-A-R-M-O-R-E I think, She-may be two r's,B-A--
I think it's just one--B-A-R-M-O-R-E.
K: Did-do you remember what her position had been,what her depart-
ment had been and if she stayed, stayed on?
W: Uhh she id- stay on. She uh she--I-I--now I believe and I only
met her once, maybe I didn't meet her at all; maybe I just
have impressions of meeting her--I think I did meet her once.
Uh she I think had been head of the cataloguing department and
uh left to go up to the urn--there's a library in--in Atlanta
etb .0CU
that's the uh--the library forAcommunicable disease labor-
atory. There's a big laboratory up there and I think she went up
to be librarian of that.
K: Did you encounter a housing shortage when you returned to
Gainesville?
W: Yess, we did!
K: Was there one?
W: We actually--we bought a house without ever seeing it.
K: Mm hm. Where? ,/
W: A friend of ours um Mrs. ~ s Atkins'husband < on the


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 65 McKenzie
faculty in the French Department uh looked for houses for us
and she found this place and she said she thought it would
be all right so we just said we'd buy it. Turned out all right
was uh...yes, there was a very, real shortage.
K: Now)what were the libraries in existence in 1946 that you
were responsible for? In other words, what I'm asking is
what branch libraries existed in addition to the main lib-
rary?
W: Uhh well, of course, the law library but I-I-I was really
--I worked very closely with-- with the dean uh well, when
I first came back I taught legal bibliography egg I believe
that Dean Crandall, Dr. Crandall was the-was the acting dean
uh and uh then when Henry Jhin came down from Yale I work-
ed with him but I don't--bu-t- --but--but my relationship
with the law library was through the dean rather than dir-
ectly as a librarian. Then there was a chemistry library
which was directly uh--
K: Under you?
W: Uhh yeah. And then there was a little architecture library
working iurtZh room uh that was in existence then.Then, of
course, agriculture.
K: Uh huh.Where would that--that architecture have been in-
in --__- Hall?


UF65AB/Tape B
Page 66 McKenzie
W: Noo, the--the--when uh I first--when I first came down it
was in-in Peabody, I think.
K: Was it? I guess the architecture department was there.
W: Yeah. And that's where it wasand then-then they moved over in-
to the temporary.....
K: Was there a library facility at what they call the old Alachua
Air Base, where they set up a trailer park and--and took ad-
vantage of some barracks to house students? Immediately after
the war in forty-seven?
W: Ahhhh, as far as I know there was not a library facility, now
we did uh--we did store books out there.
K: Mm hm.
W: Uhh books that uhh--as I remember they were primarily books that
we withdrew from the main building-was a very, very
crowded uh and I can remember things like this that-that the
uh University College might--might uh order--decide they were
going to use a certain book and we'd order a hundred copies
of them. Then a couple of years later thychange books--
say rather than throwing those away we would take them out
until
there we decided what we really wanted to do with the
ones that were no longer being used, things like that.
that
K: What was the location of that area? Somebody told me it's where the
Butler Brothers built their shopping plaza by thirty-fourth


-UF 65AB/Tape B
-Page 67 McKenzie
street and uh Archer Road?
W: Mmmm no, it was out by the airport, out that way.
K: It is the site, the current Gainesville airport?
W: Yeah.
K: Okay, I've heard conflicting stories about that. Mmm let's see
now, there was a temporary building ,I assume it was intended
to be temporary, that was constructed just west of the original
library building in--in the post-war years?
W: ?M hm, mm hm.
K: What was that intended to be' for?
W: That--that was really the University College Reading Room.
When--when u- I became librarian the University College Read-
ing Room was-was uh on the ground floor. Uhh where the catalogues
are now sgi uh in Library East.Then we built that and moved the--
and
the University College out there and thenAput the periodicals
and made a periodical room out of the--the main-the ground floor.
K: Was thaiconnected to Library East? Was there a passageway to
it?
W: No, I don't believe there was. I believe the entrance was just
uh well, as you go in the south, the south entrance there was-
there was an en--that's where the entrance was.
K: Did you all locate any sort of libraries in any of the Fluvet


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 68 McKenzie
Villages?
W: I don't remember any in the Flavet Villages. But uhh they
were in--as the new--as the new dormitories were planned there
were libraries in them. But I don't-I don't remember-uh--
in the uh--I'm trying to think--there may have been-no, ]
don't. I-I'm-I'm trying to think of--of a maybe a place over
in the general area where the engineering buildings were.
But-but I think--I think what we did was to put some general
books in the--in the engineering library. But I don't remember
any in the Flavets.
K: Okay. Had the planning for the addition to the old library--
to Library East-already been underway at the time you return-
ed or were you one of the people most responsible for that?
In other words, when did that get underway as far as the real
planning for it?
W: Well, ahhh, my guess is that there had been--been planning. I
would be almost certain that there had beenjand I would go a
A, LDr
step further and say that probably Manning apr had been in-
volved in it.
K: Mm hm.
W: Because he was very, very much interested in the library. Uhh
but it was about four years from the time--not quite four years


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 69 McKenzie
almost four years between the time that--when I came and we
actually got the building finished ac4--gt5in ay. So, I
uh I'm sure I was involved in the planning but I think probably
that--that the general concept of the building uhh knowing
me uhh I know that probably I would have made some suggestions
about the uh the, you know, the general schematics of the
thing and to make it work because uhm the--the people who
did it uh uh nobody was a librarian because they-the uh
poor librarians in those days were in the dog house just be-
fore I came. And uh so they wouldn't have been very much in-
volved in it--it would've been people like interested professors
and then the architects.
K: Mm hm. Were there any uh certain people who were the main in-
stigators and articulators of the need for this--this ob-
vious need of enlargement? The president or you as director
of the libraries or--? I guess what I'm really asking is
--is were you involved in lobbying in Tallahassee with the leg-
islature to get the money to get this thing going?
W: Well, uhh I--I wasn't in Tallahassee. Now, / / ,<?'
the librarians did. You-we met with the legislature and
thing--and committees and things of this kind in-in that-
that wasn't a tradition in-in Florida when I became librarian.


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 70 McKenzie
But uh the president did uhh but I'm--I'm reasonably certain
that--that people like Manning Doer and--and Archie
Robertson and uh probably 4tweren4 Patrick in his quiet way
uh were working on it. Z-T" __ course I did
my--but what I was trying to-do was convince the president
and the university officers be--to--to give us a high enough
priority because uhh well, for instance, I think they de-
cided to build the uh gym. I thought--think-thought we
were going to get the money to build the library on time
and they built the gym instead and I'm not even sure. Maybe
they didn't put the chemistry building--I just don't remember
all of the very real agonizing things but um the--the uh I
worked tokry to convince uh President Tigert and then Presi-
dent Miller.
a
K: Mm hm. Okay. Now uh you seemed to indicate moment ago that
the uh architects and planners and designers did not consult
too much with uh experienced professional librarians in-in
making their decisions for the building, or ?
W: Well, I would say, I remember having that feeling.
K: Mm hm.
W: That because I was new and a man--
K: Mm hm.
W: --and--and uh still in this honeymoon stage, I could go in and
say now look this doesn't work from a librarian's standpoint.


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 71 McKenzie
K: Mm hm. X ,,4
W: That's what so often 4Xa> /X 5s. t peculiar Florida.
K: Sure.
W: But uh the uh very often the architects uh I-I-I think prob-
ably women I--I think in-in-in all the areas I know of one
that
of the most legitimate complaints'women as administrators
could have is that architects and professors don't-have not
really accepted them as--as the professional experts in plan-
ning. Now they'll-they'll let them run the library, that's
one thing. You get around to doing a building and they're very
apt to be excluded and--and uh not as much anymore but this
was the--tradition--I've been consultants. Consultant on--on
libraries where--where the uh librarian was a woman. And they
had--they felt they needed to have a man come into tell them
about it. It's--it's just--I think it's a very legitimate com-
plaint and I--I'm quite sure--my memjry, my gut feeling is
that that was the kind of thing I had to do after I got here.
The concept-they'd been working probably all during the war
on the concept but some of it just wasn't practical. And Iae )
had some chamges.
K: inM hm. Were you satisfied with what you got? With the result,
you personally?


IUF 65AB/Tape B
Page 72 McKenzie
.Uhh I know you would've wanted more, I'm sure,...
W: Well, I think the issue--the issue--the issue uhh persisted
even into th o--to--what's now Library West was the uh I
think a lot of librarians would not have allowed as many
seminar rooms and--in the top floor of-of Library East.
And uh I've been criticized by my professional colleagues
uh other university librariaqs js having as many uh seminar
;dbWrk V CT5
rooms in-the-uh--in-exit+erete. I think since that time some
of those have been converted from seminar rooms into-into
library space. Of course that was the plan. I think that the
people who--who would criticize the top floor of Library East
and--and what we did in Library West uh didn'ttealize the ser-
ious shortage uh of--of facilities for graduate students at
the University of Florida! Almost unbelievable. And I've said
dWkind of it thing to myself is that-that I would rather be
the librarian of a great university ta quote be a great librarian ,
If I felt that the University of Florida as:I did needed grad-
uate space for graduate seminars close to the books and knew
it could be changed later then--then I would do that. And the-
I--I say-that would be one of the criticisms from a librarian's
standpoint-of both of--oofoth of the buildings, library buildings
that wereuilt while I was here.


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 73 McKenzie
K: But you did try to get that kind of-of uh space provided for
in the library specifically because of your own feeling; ei" ?t '
W: Yeah. Because ._
they--they were just uh--there were just no uh facilities--
in other words, no recognition in those days of-of-of the
need of graduate students or--and people who were teaching a
graduate work.
K: Mm hm. So, are we talking about study carrels also? Was that
ad) )t/'/ _-----------_ ?
W: a, well, oh yes. The uh oh, well the uh yes. There was never any
question-it was just a question of how many we could have.
K: Mm hm.
W: bUhh and whether they would be wired or closed--doors--or things
like that. But the uh-I would say that the big--the uh--maybe
because I was so close to some of the faculty members who were
interested in this. But I would say this was the big--the big
issue-the--the-the problem was--was providing-create a grad-
uate research center-library research center. That's what we
tried to do. And uh that would be true of both of the buildings.
K: Uhh now at the time that--that you were planning and--and building
the addition and then the renovation to Library East were--was


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 74 McKenzie
-there any University community already uh talk and planning go-
ing on as far as uh what became the research library, or, Library
West? Or, did you feel that you were going to be able to deal
with--with the student body with what you had just built?
W: Oh, oh, no.I--I mean we knew--we knew uh just right away uh
we
there was--we knew that Awere going to need more space,
that
that was just allAwe could get. The--I would say that the big-
the big thing was uh and if you go hack over some--some of the
old--d drawings and plans for years the thing--the thought was
that we would--we would uh enlarge the ap a -that was behind
Library East, double that. And then build uh a space out behind
Peabody and maybe space in where now I guess the big argument
is about they're gonna put the accounting building.
K: Yes.
W: Well, that's the space in there, between Library East and the
the
law school was to be considered libray space and space behind
Peabody. So, we were juggling our building blocks to fit this in
and then uh actually I would say that uh um I-I would give, at
least for shaking me up and it was in a very quiet way, a very
unassuming, you know, no big set-up meeting uh Dean Arnett one
time said Stanley, he said, I don't know whether-whether we
ought to be just assuming that's what we're gonna do about--about


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 75 McKenzie
ex--enlarging the library or whether we ought to really look at
what we need and what should be done) So, we got /;i p t__,_
Metcalf who was the-at that time the librarian at Harvard
and the great consultant. Dr. Miles Price was the great law
librarian in the country wivt s =A Y..Y i AR tl
-~-mT- I-- C~""~.~ff is still the great
library consultant for academic libraries and he came down. And
uh convinced everybody, he spent several days and convinced
everybody that-that what we ought to do is to Build a new
building, not add on to that one. And uh said that the only
logical place for it was where Library West is now. And uh
to his credit Bob /?ct Zct -they had--they'd already
planned put education--a general education building in there.
K: Mm hm.
W: And M ar t2 -Twe had a you know these big planning sessions
and M rAIF said well, if that's what you think ks, --
the library's more important than any other one building on
general
the campus so they moved the--the uh site for the education
WE5<
building and put--put Library Det there. So, but I--they
say that was the shiftlhe thinking had been going on
but it had been going on in another direction.
K: I see. Mm hm. Were you involved as director of the library
with uh the planning for the medical center and the medical


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 76
McKenzie
Center library?
W: Mm hm, mm hmm.
K: Ahh, there's so many questions I want to ask you about that,
um, I assume it was intended to be totally subservient to
the needs obviously of the medical center but who were the
people,lf you can tell me, either consultants or whoever
who made decisions with regard to the time frame of developing
that library as far as, you know, when it would be needed
and--and who was called in to uh make that kind of decision?
Or--or, were those kind of decisions made by the--the adminis-
tration here?
W: Well, -- -
K: Lc.'fg you're really starting from scratch.
W: Yeah, yeah. Uhh well....
K: Anything you can tell me a 60t_ V/r____ f
W: Yeah, all right, uh well, it-it--in fact when-I was--I was work-
ing very closely with Russell ~-fkt 401-' at the time uhh and
uh we invited um I--I'm don't know what we're--I'll come back to
it later I don't know whether we're talking about the timing,
time schedule--we invited uh the--the man who uh was the--the
director of libraries at the--o fVtJIS--at uh Columbia. The
director of libraries --dean of library school at Columbia 4-re' J-4
pO general person....


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 77 McKenzie
K: Mm hm.
W: ...and the person who at that time the president of the medical
library association o -sotiato n to
come as consultant to plan the--the uh the you know, the
concept of the building and the administration of the building
and something about the budget and things of that kind. So,
the--we had these two--two consultants um of uh who worked
with us umuiow, are you asking about the size--the timing
uh was just as antntegral part of the building um and I--I
Io
think that it uh --course, again there was always a question
of--of uh how much space you could get, how much money, uh
um there was always enough money for what we though in those
days was a--a--an adequate staff, um and--and we thought uh
space for a reasonable length of timetuh I think the size
of the libraywas affected very much by Dean Harrell's concept
of having each student have his own little office. I don't
know whether you've heard this if you talk to people--?
K: No, no, I haven't.
W: Well, Dean Harrell had something which at that time was considered
to be very innovative--innovative and very good. Uhh the minute
a student came to medical school he was given a little uh well,
it would be more than just like a graduate carrel. He really had
a place for his uh--where he could study, where he kept his lab-
oratory stuff that he needed and things of this kind. Everybody


OF 65AB/Tape B
Page 78 McKenzie
~had one and it was very close to the library so the idea was
that
probably /\ the students would be taking their hooks in there
and using them more often or at least as often as he would
use the library. Uhh he was also influenced and I saw the same
thing happen out E /4wn>oit when they started the new medi-
cal school and planned buildings and things um by the--the
proposed size of the-of the class ,t started off it was going
to be a small school uh and I suppose somebody had an idea it
was going to turn out to be what it is now but it was supposed
to he a small school and very closely related to uh to the
academic program of the rest of the University. As a matter of
fact, I think that Sam Martin who was first dean, wasn't he?
4._ was head of the department O medicine-_- ~
dean. Actually did teach a course in humanities when he uh
first came down. The idea was that these people were not to be
off by themselves but were to be really part of the University
so all this influenced the planning of the library, h the
first one. Now I understand there's a second one which I haven't
even seen or even know where it is.
K: It's towards the north, on the back of the --- -.
W: What have they done--what have they done to the--to the first
library?
K: They gutted it and rebuilt office space in what used to be the
library it's huge. I've only been through there once


UF 65AB/Tape B
Eage 79 -McKenzie
W: Well, medical education has just uh well, I--I guess I shouldn't
say completely changed but uh for instance,,in those days, medi-
cal libraries werenobody thought of them as being say as big
as the law library. And uh they were just beginning--just be-
ginning to get into the uh to the uh addio-visual part of the
thing with all the slides and all that kind of equipment. Uhh
and I don't lnow now IG uh adminisytration whether that's part
of the library or whether it's a separate department. Uhh but
all--all thosdevelopments happened since that library was plan-
ned and certainly the uh the scale of medical library and medi-
cal research has changed.
K: From the beginning was the book budget and were the salaries of the
medical library staff part of the budget of the medical center --
W: Nn mm.
K: --or your own?
W: No, it was uoe o/1' same.
Uh well, I'll tell you the uh--now that we-I--if both the law
school and the medical school I approved the appointments of the
professional librarians and things like that but uh I--I've taugt ^t
j> here and at other universities and it's just plain easier
to get money for a library which is a part of the medical budget
than it is to increase a university library budget uh enough to
do a good job. Almost anybody--in other words, we talk again in


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 80 McKenzie
terms of board of regents, legislature, presidents can under-
stand this. Library committees can understand this. But--
everybody accepts the idea that if you're gonna have a law
school, you're gonna have a law library. And if you're gonna
have a medical school, you're gonna have a medical library.
And they seem to go together. Probably don't say that if you're
gonna have a department of history, you're gonna have a--uh
now some concepts of budgeting do that, I mean internal budget-
ing. They say if you've got so many faculty members in the his-
tory department and so many students you shall have this much
money to buy history books. But is's--it's never separated out
hardly ever separated it's put in A.But thes pro-
fessional schools-agriculture's pretty much the same way....
K: Now, who--how did you staff that library? Did you pick a direct-
or and then....?
W: Mm hm.
K: Work in unison with he or she'and--?
the
W: I--mm hm, I picked director and--and uh it was a joint thing)
and I would do the screening and T wPlw l rl ta ,--e-rwning and-and
PaMq
uh and then we--we went to Russell Fork uh to say I think this is
- e person who ought to be uh the director, or, matter of fact, fzrm-/
other staff but after I got the director then the director took
on the responsibility. But the idea was to--professional librarians
I would be involved at--at some point in their appointment.




OF 65AB/Tape B
Page 82 McKenzie
then-- went to Dr, Miller and he--he said he thought it was a
good thing where were--where were we gonna get the money? Uhh
and at least in those days it happened, there wasn't very
much money really coming in from anywhere and uh so G t --
said I tell you what lets' do. Let's put a water tower --we'll
get--we'll say we'll put a water tower in here, the campus
needs a water tower. And we'll put that in em // --put the
Acrt Lrc'^'/ o Xit and that'll be the justification for
the--the whole thing. Well, I think they even maybe even went
so far as to drilling the wells--I don't--I don't know. But
the uh somehow or another we got--we got enough money to build
the--the towerebut--uh the exterior--and then they never did
to
give--never had enough money for the uh--put little rooms
they were gonna plan little--uh little rooms on each--each
floor and uh since I'd helped design it and I knew about it
uh I asked if we could use it for library storage space. And
so they let us build some temporary wooden shelves there and
fr
then-so for yearsp ong as I was librarian we used it until
uh until the--Library West was finished and then actually um
we didn't even take all the books out of --out of it then be-
cause we knew--we knewLibrary West was--was gonna be short of
space almost. Because the idea was that very soon after that
we were to build an addition __O enlarge that
stack tiS and build an addition out where the parking lot


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 83 McKenzie
there is. But that's--that's the way thatthinh--thing got start-
ed.
K: Was there supposed to ber some kind of connecting lake between
the tower and the auditorium?
W: I--there--there may have been. Uh the--it's Just the way so
many things were done in--in those years. They were kind of
-" ~?-- ,/ Ai,, {y\'4S around here and uh uh I
think that-that the idea was--was to get the tower up. I-I
could
yes, I believe it--I believe if you look youAprobably find
some schematics which would show a connection. But uh the
thing that I remember that--that--at least has not been done
hy the time I left in sixty seven was that--that there--there
was to be an elevator and there was--and there would be little
rooms--little sort of schematic rooms, different things be--
be in there. Has--has anything be done to the interior?
K: I don't think they've ever really done anything to finish the
interior.
W: Welll....
K: I suppose if there was anything intended they just followed
down in the idea that you could come up with '-----
I'd like to ask you now uh if we can talk a little bit about
how the library acquired the Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings papers.
and uh what role you played in that.


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 84 McKenzie
W: Well, I--I guess probably uh the--the uh the idea must have
existed in Marjorie Rawlings mind for--for a long time because
the when we got around to the will uh uh her-I think her
thought had originally was not really the library it was the
English department. She had at one time ho4 felt quite close
to the English departmentul I think she'd given some lectures
and things of this kind so it started out a connection--I'm
trying to think of the--the lawyers name who drew her--her
r
will--a Jacksonville lawyer. But anyway, so as you-as you--
as you would--as you found out about the will and the plans
she had made you knew it had been going on for a long time.
The--the immediate. way that it--it came about there was a
young really of Bill Car.rin's by the name of Cln -e.ve
Barrow--does that have--does that name mean anything to you?
K:
W: BarrTO --was when he was in school--
K: I think I've heard it before but --
W: Yeah.
K: --just in passing.
W: Well, anyway, he--he was a--he was a--a poet-a very--I think
really a good poetA Ji_- still living. And uh
a podige of--of Bill CatkPn's uhh who was interested in the
library. He just was very much interested in--in books and things


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 85 McKenzie
um and he got to know Marjorie Rawlings. And the--the first
j-Y _-e^ AD-
thing that I heard about it wa/just coming into me be--actually
I started to get to know him because he was so critical of the
would listen
library. But--but I guess the fact that I A to him, you know,
made him think well. there's hope anyway. And so he came to tell
me that Marjorie Rawlings had all these letters and manuscripts
and things like that and he thought she'd be willing to give them
to the--to the dniversity library. And uh so he would arrange
uh meetings, I would go out3 and we'd have drinks and sit around
and talk grd abeLt Cross Creek and then um one thing lead to
another uh she talked about the books and--and uh and the manu-
scripts and things and then uh I guess she was convinced that,
you know, that I--we'd take care of them if she gave them to us
uh and then I remember one--one evening ;xi and I drove over
to uh Crescent Beach--they had a beach house over there and
Norton Baskin was there and uh we had dinner and had quite a
bit to drink ,~iJ ,\,'-"- '7 t Marjorie <iB had quite a bit
to drink uh and we sat around reading. She would read letters.
I remember ancreshe read from Ernest Hemingway and saying even
his letters have rhythm! and stuff like that. She just--rhythm
to her was very important. And we just read letters from A I
- ___________ everybody-she would sit--we had a big wicker
basket and she would--she sat there and read these letters to us.


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 86 McKenzie
277
And I was getting sleepy and tired! Hah hah hah hah.ABr was
ready to go home! I knew I had to drive and Jban, she kept on
talking and finally when we got ready to go she just piled
the whole bunch in a couple of wicker baskets. And we brought
them home with us in--in the car.
K: And that was the beginning?
W: That was the beginning and uh then uh she gradually turned more
things over to us uh and then pi6 Julia Scribner Bigham who
was the daughter of the Scribner family uh who had published
her books was made literary e ires's and uh she was very
helpful and she came down here and turned over a lot of things
to us and then we got- 5 j- 4e,_kt'in the library school cf Q $
Rutgers one spring and I eg ab. t)rt/l/ go into New
York with her then and uh so we got--what we really did she
would let me take a lot of the letters and thin from uh Max-
- tDa d-a' and
well Perkins and Marjorie Rawlings. I took them overAmicrofilmed
ed them at Rutgers so that was--I'm saying it added ,it didn't
stop when Marjorie Rawlings died it--it Julia she's recently), SJf(C ?tv l~
MS!S;M died of cancer. But we really owe an awful lot to that
gal because she--she was hurting from cancer the days that I
would go in there would be the days that she would come in to
would
get her some sort of treatments and then we would--she'use that as
occasion to go over to Scribnersand persuade her brother to
let us film some more of her heh heh heh take these letters. Her
brother was not as enthusiastic about it as Julia was.


* UF 65AB/Tape B
-Page 87 McKenzie
K: 'That was a fantastic opportunity.
W: Yes, it was.
K: Ahh, Dr. Proctor told me that there's an interesting story a-
bout the day when the library--Library East was dedicated and
Mrs. Rawlings made a speech of delivery which was broadcast
over WRUF?
W: Yes, ahh what I really uh he mentioned this to me just, you
know, this morning when I came in and I wish I could even remem-
ber what it was but--but she was just plain talking uh and we
had--what I really 1 LC -I don't remember this, Sam would
know probably whether it actually got on WRUF or whether it was
on--on a tape. And I remember Dr. Miller came to me or looked
(K 11
and said my God is that thing gonna-I--I really--it was--she
was describing see--before she died she had a-she had s real
falling out. The famous lawsuit uhh when I came backk-when we
came back after the war. These people were--the people from
Cross Creek were suing Marjorie Rawlings. And she--I--I think
she called them sons-of-bitches, eh heheh heh,, or something
like that, heh heh heh and--and we were all apprehensive. But
I--but I--I don't--I don't remember any--any ramifications from
it. I--either--either people just laughed it off or else it was
on tape rather than--than on--on the air. I just don' temember,
But I know--I know that everybody was heh heh heh heh rocked!!


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 88 .McKenzie
Eh heh heheheh heh heh heh.
K: Umm had you heard of her while you were a law student here?
W: Oh, yeah. I'd heard of her before I was a law student., I re-
member reading Sotfli Afroy U /nOlcP' Wlae- when I was at
Berkeley.
K: Mm hm. Did you --*---_ ?
W: Yes, and I'd heard of her while we were here, you know.
K: Did you ever get a chance to I know you-you said you hadn't
met her but had you ever seen her on one of these trips to
campus? You mentioned she came and talked to English classes
here one time?
W: No, no, I think she'd stopped by the time...I--I somehow I feel
that those uh--I think there was a--I guess I just had this
feeling that uh she led a sort of a bohemian life.
K: Mm hm.
W: And I think there was a--there wae- enough feeling in enough
places on the campuses that uh she was just--remember you
have to go back to those--to those days in--in the forties
that--that maybe she could get the university in trouble if-if
we were-well, just like President Miller was really hacked
when hechard this going on and because as part of what they
do they-re--they'll laugh or--or uh people will, you know, or-or
be angry. Uh but--but it's usually university president ends up


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 89 McKenzie
11ll4ag the bag I mean they'll go to him and blame him for
even allowing a thing like that to happen. So, now that is
just my feeling. That by that time she--it was--the whole
thing was sort of bohemian enough that--that because she was
-mean the parties at Cross Creek werh talked about.
Now that's just my feeling.
K: Uhh having-had the opportunity to know her at least to that
extent what are your uh recollections of her? What kind of a
personality was she and what kind of--what kind of character
did she have?
W: Well, I would say that she was a-a author first, last, and
always. That I really think that her writing I think that she
tried to write well, I think that it was very, very important.
Now, I've t t since that time--I'm--I'm-I've gotten to
know a lot of writers, quite a few. And I never met one who
was as --as dedicated to writing as she was. That is the very
fact that she would--she would analyze these uh ehh she
would say read a poem or read a passage or something like that
and right in the middle of it lose interest in the content
and think of--of--of the writing just as writing. And that's-
-that's the way--the way--way she was. And for that I admired
her very, very much. And eh of course I think that a person


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 90 McKenzie
who could feel as intensely as she did about Cross Creek and--and
the--the plant life and the animals and everything there says
something about the interior-about the person herself. And I
think that she was very sensitive of--there's no question there
were times when the was coarse uh and-and uh she must have
drank too much, hah, but I admired her as somebody who really
loved the place she wrote about, who really loved writing. Now
I--I'm not sure of this but I have a feeling that she was dis-
appointed in--in the reception of The Sojourner. Uhh I think
that her books about New York have not attracted as much attent-
ion as her books about'Florida. But I-thAi-srokt I remember one
afternoon JSan and I went out there for drinks and she said, well,
I've just, just -killed my hero. It's time to have a drink. And
so--eh but she--in other words, I think that--I think that she
didn't want to be--now she loved Cross Creek-as I'm sure that she
liked Crescent Beach if she would have been over there. But uh
I think that she would rather have been appreciated as a writer
than as a regional writer.
K: Mm hm.
W: Uhh but it-but--I mean y6u just cig't read things like Cross
Creek or idShing- or The Yearling uhh and not get her feeling


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 91 McKenzie
for this place.
K: So her greatest strength also limited the reception she re-
ceived from the ?
W: Now, this is just--I--I'm-this is what uh what I think she--
hurt her a little bit.
K: Mm hm
W: That--that the uh that the books that were popular that made her
famous were about Florida uh and that she--she really didn't
make it as a--just as a--as a writer--as her ability to write.
But--but I know how hard she tried to write well and did write
well. Now that's--that's just one man's um....
K: Would you say from hearing her conversation on a few occasions
uh that uh she was a well read woman in the sense of being aware
and interested in current events and world affairs as opposed to
the works of heriiterary contemporaries?
W: Well, I--I would say this: I--again now this is njust--just a
librarian's eye view of somebody.
K: Right.
W: Umm I would tend to think that first she would be interested in
individuals. Now, if--if uh if we'll say if she--and II--I
believe she died--I may be wrong about this but I have a feeling
that she really liked for example.
5l f ,A A4 /yse 47 )
. J _(_


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 92 McKenzie
K: Mm hm.
W: I think she would be interested in what-in an environment
lived in if it affect
_-__ _-_. But it wouldn't be just beacuse she was inter-
ested in what-what went on over there.
K: Mm hm.
W: Ahhh um she did not like um the--see, these people would come
and live with her and she--but she didn't--who-who wrote uh--
who wrote uh the--the shangra-la book?
K: Hilton?
W: Hilton, she didn't like him, nope.
K: Nope?
W: No bones about that.
K: But--but she would let--
W: Well, :they'd come stay with her, oh yeah.
K: ( J"7/jcy^J/visit*, nmm bhn.
K: Yeah. And I know she liked Ernest Hemingway. Very much. And-and
it's been a long time since I looked at the letters but as-as she
she'd read a letter you could see how she felt. Uh and I would
say that--that it was--cause she was really a person oriented kind
of a--that way rather than in principle,say, for example. That is
I don't--I don't remember her being involved in any movements of


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 93 McKenzie
any kind. Do you or should be?
K: I--I don't think that I have heard anything about We
I don't think Bigelow talks about anything like that. Let me in-
terrupt you one more time.
(END OF TAPE B/SIDE 1)


.UF 65AB/TAPE B SIDE 2
Page 94 McKenzie
K: Were there any people on the--on the faculty that she was at
all close to or friends with?
W: Uhh
K: Even moderately?
W: I'm trying to think uhh I--I have a feeling that she 1=d A/
Archie Robertson. ( | c d j
K: Mm hm.
W: I'm trying to think whether he ever entertained for her--he
was never out there the time I was there. But I have a feeling
that I--I--at least--all right they--they--maybe with the deter-
iorating situation, you know, about her lecturing and particpat-
ing in the university he may have been involved in it some way
because he was chairman of the English department. But I--I would
say that she must have known him uh and let's see, who would be
the other people for her to be as close to the English department
as she was and that-and that her-remember because she not only
gave the--the books to the library but the English department
-of)
gets--gets after Nort Baskin dies gets what's ever left of the es-
tate.
K: Mm hm.
W: So I think that uh--I would gather that some of those people
were--I'm trying to think if--if you're interested if there'd be--
be some-somebody else who would know more about it than I.


UF 65AB/TAPE B SIDE 2
Page 95 McKenzie
I r f V.' would probably know cause he knew Archie
so well. Uhhh....
K: But nobody leaps immediately to mind?
W: No, no, uh the-the uh bridge was--was uh Jeen Barrow. Now uh and it
mayb e Bill Carleton. How Jean met her I don't know. But he--he was
brash enough so he could just go introduce himself and uh cause
he did that. He did--he got us manuscripts-a lot of ma nuscripts
from people just by __..---- .-_---._
K: Q 4 ,- _- Z__ _qw
Did you ever have occasion to meet Charles Rawlings?
W: No.
K: No. Uh let me see, did you ever either through uh the-the friend-
ship with Mrs. Rawlings or your time in New York get to meet
Maxwell Perkins whom we mentioned a moment ago?
W: No, matter of fact, I think Maxwell Perkins had died by the time
um I wish I had, I would have liked to have met him.
K: Let's see now, Robert Frost, I:think, used to visit the campus
from time to time, didn't he? Did you meet him?
W: Mm hm, mm hm. Oh, yeah. Uhh I--we--you know, I would-take books
over for him to autograph. One time I--I--I introduced him at
the--he would come down-- it's very interesting he-uh now the-the
conservative members in the English department uh uh liked him,
respected him, liked his poetry, older people. Then and so he would


UF 65AB/TAPE B
Page 96 McKenzie
come down almost every year he would come down. Uhh and--and um
read some poetry over in the auditorium. And then um Archie
Robertson would have a dinner for him or--or a luncheon and I
would always be--be invited. So I think I got to know him
quite well and I liked him very much. Uhh very interesting little
bit of university history-after the--the uh personnel -in the
English department began to change a little bit uh and Frost
got to be older uh ther+as a sort of a feeling on the part
of some of the faculty I think that they ought to invite young-
could
er poets and different poets. But they / invite these people
and the auditorium would be two-thirds emptyl Invite Robert
Frost and invariably it was absolutL he students really did
adore him! I mean they--he was so-such a handsome rugged sort
of a guy and he read so beautifully.
K: He was a showman _-- --------- ?
W: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he--he really was. So I--I-uh I was really
grateful to know him and Robertson was always--always would in-
clude us in....
which was
K: I once had the occasion to be in an English class /\ addressed
by his biographer and I can't remember the man's name right now
but uh he said that at the 1960 Kennedy inaugural when Frost
and
fumbled with his papers the president held them down for him
hat more colder
that he faked the whole thing.'he was no more colder /0


UF 65AB/Tape B
Page 97 McKenzie
- _-----_ e than anybody else up there!
W: Ha hah hah ha ha hah huh huh huh!
K: Was there a special collections department here before the
acquisition'-of the uh Rawlings papers? Or did you establish
one at that time or later?
W: Well, it was--it was later on actually. That is, I---but see-
we didn't--dedication of-of the uh the addition in our library
as I remember it was in 1950. Uhh and um we didn't get around
really to having_ a special collections department for several
years. We took care of--of the papers but uh in library lang-
uage a special collections department involves uh spec-uh a
person trained like Miss Montee and-and uh and provisions for
special catalogueing, special handling. And that took more
money than we had in those days. We-what we did is invited
the-the head of the rare book--one of the rare book librar-
ians from Yale down. And she spent a semster with us uh Mar-
jorie Wynnmand then made some recommendations and so we--based
on those recommendations we set up the--the department. But
GaNe
we had been--we'd been collecting--uh 9ten Barrow had been-
P-
we'd been collecting these paers um and then,of course, in
a sense the Florida History Library came along--P.K. Yonge
Library of Florida History was a--is a special collection.
tAat
And that was uh most of the money "we had in those days went


UF 65AB/TAPE B
Page 98 McKenzie
for--for that--support of that library rather than the uh the--
what we now think of as special collection.
K: Can--can you uh tell me the year in which you got the rare
books department started? And would Miss Montee been the orig-
A
inal uh....
W: She was the orig--
K: Librarian at that--?
W: No! She wasn't the original librarian. Uhh a man by the name
of John Beadler who is now the uh the rare book librarian--
or head of special collection at the University of Vermont was
the first person we appointed for that job. And then he left
uhh to go up to Vermont and then I think Miss Montee came in.
But uh no--I--I don't really remember. I don't remember the-the
dates uh if-I mean we could find it out from the library but
I just uh--
K: Sometime in the fifties.
W: Yeah, yeah, mm hm.
K: Was there a separate uh university archives department within
the library when you came back? Or, did you start that up?
W: No, there weren't any archives at all. We--no, that--that was
just uh a kind of a-a development.of--of the uh as most--
well, it's--different universities have different uh ways of
handling things uh some places the archives are definitely a


UF 65AB/Tape B
'Page 99 McKenzie
part of the university administration because -
s a very large part-percentage of--of archival material are
official documents and things. But here -_
the way uh we've started them in the library really the way to
get-get some of these manuscripts from--from professors and-
and as a--as a way to get departments-convince departments not
to throw away their papers but uh but uh I--as far as I know
there was never any like say okay now we're goifig. to have
archives and now we have a uh uh it's sort of a--a natural
growth and finding somebody to take care of them.
K: Where was Mr. Young and his Florida collection located when
you came back to become, director?
W: Ahh let's see--it was in the--the ground floor of-of Library
East uhh I don't even know what's there now. It's uh as you
go in the south door you turn just right to the right and go
in--go in there. I'll have to go look sometime and see what
they've put in there. Uhh but he had just--he had just uh he
had just gotten here when I-when I came and uh....
K: Was there any Florida library collection in--in the library
before he brought his own personal collection?
W: Well, only I would say to the extent that-that being the
University of Florida uhh the--the you'd buy books e4ublish-
ed in Florida and about Florida and, of course, we would collect