Title: Dr. Joseph Shelley [CRSTA 6]
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00005747/00001
 Material Information
Title: Dr. Joseph Shelley CRSTA 6
Series Title: Dr. Joseph Shelley CRSTA 6
Physical Description: Book
Publication Date: 1977
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00005747
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.


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Interview ; Dr, David urn
Inter ewee; Dr. Jo FS Shelley
Da:t 09B 77
ge 1

2.-S---sI oua"nt tn ik r- e-sp-saso r,.


C: Well, i would sJdlike to talk about your background ftrs


-qjy I --r/~ir-"--h'"- i -L- -

C: Where h were you born and raised?

S: Palatka, Florida, ---- .. .

S: My father and mother were both born and raised" 7/ r0'

C: -Afrrd~where did you go to college?

S: The University of Florida -+ eele 1934 -t 193._ .

C: I saw from the diploma you went to Temple, Fi -t"LL mTtIglI

S: Then I went to Templenf September -Czelt-ember '* -Vhich

means I graduated in 4w 1942. Jac 'i/ty -

(,m Ic rke((d Ac el Lch./tll plt ,!> h, 1 A 0 e
C0,4 rt# trte(fI
Q4 months in combat pi.Wct to this country and we had to sail out of\' .

GermanyFeb r 4, 1976.

S: ....ee t t.... .gt he e o t e. ......" ""' \oa

number ten, We spent the night there on the boat .........
< \ \ \ .\ \ ,
.., .. .. .. .. \ N " \ ^.\\^ ,^ .

something or other

I~~-LYC-r w Znt TU-*~im i-nr--


volt fll~~ u~nt me ro.

page 2

S: r Harold Parr Jot? C de { used to have a boy

tn Florida' ........ . and

later became a minister,

He later became a minister, \

\ \ \

-Ad-thrrium, after you got out, -whb- what made you come to St, Augusttne?

I stopped along _____... in Palatka, t hadn't seen t, was

starting to leave ....
ofTCr-s clI-b
and how -he wt ua f two days a week and he talked me into

going into practice ....

I stayed in Palatka t-1-1 I was married / /tl

wife~,e-re'S a nurse _____ '.' ._________\_____________ _

C: d th h children?

S: ldren boyr, as
boy k ,b
in Vietnam was .\L\Vl1 CE4t V')

nemran-- _____
there about

there about G ................

S- - ......-. "'-> /--got over


Two of them went to FSU





page 3



Hospital, Dr. Lockwood came.over visittng

he said,

What got you involved in politics,:

Well, we had a situation on the city commission,

>r k6rT ...

F- -Of x

surgeorK .......

There was an awful lot of\.

so much so,\ '-

Just out of curiosity, who came into\

Let nie put !L T 'eQ Ca me-i k/e cc/ -

-- pol i tics ____(_J__ 4 brother ran for state attorney

for the seventh Judicial circuii^plvrt Ye ran in 1954 and he ra in 195

job as district attorney \')f',"t'i\ /-I.ij

*"^ C&,f)d.7,f -4r'\ 4o/H- s / (i?4f/o n
)-/a rt----- (/ - -C

lost the first election ~' T W i. .

I ~e-g t Interested in po itics Ctd ,2

I had a personal interest ____

and we had two other men \\

and we were getting ready for our four hundredth anniversary celebration\\__

C: Right.


go out there and tell the nation

It) k'~ u

- --- -K



.. .- . .. ..- -

. . . \ . . . . . . . . . . . \ \




page 4
m b

S: Elected selected by the mayor ........... six county commission

.. .... . * oio ..- . '. ..'. . . .. . .

We had heard a rumble of problems\ ......__ .\*\ \

while I was up there Dr1, _ye_______..._______________

shoot first and ask questions afterward O .... ... \

C: Now, have, b.Ia there been any problems when you moved in--e Pnow-I'r -
t 1 4/ Lt ,\
have t was up there y pw~,r . .. \-\,\

S: Absolutely not, ,N'L( f(V'M S4'3J,,?f.). I would say half of my prac,

ticet 1Ft adIfi' k____ u__________________

At least half my practice is ( C/

more than half of them are black, ,At- I was well known in the black community ._

-WeL'ye- ot g ht like I said, we had the first black policeman in Florida\ \\ .


me in,

?: Excuse e, Dr. Shelley, Dr,


S: We have a Dr, Gordon

very well liked, I'd say anytime,:

on the extension for you,

~____I ~_ ~ _I___~ _

_ _

- ---- ----

--- --- -- -

page 5

S: As I say Wt-

Ne e r an tnk Jn^ ** *- ** * ... .. . . . . . . . ,

- -- -....- -.- -- .V
do w n to w r \ . . ' \ . . . . . . ', \ \ . . . .. . .. . . . . . . . .

\ V
* ,, ,, \ \ . . . \ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

.. .. 4- - -- ... -- -- .. .. i--- -

. . . . .. . . . .. - \ \ \

C: 0 anyL--yo have any idea \~ Lt v A

S" Here Jt*jnk \


C ; N / I z ..I... "_ -
S; / Andrew Young who ts noQW r.. S .. o dbr____

-Yo'-, he was Martin Luther King's _________I was, I
561- dcp, "t rf2 II/ f w ,,,Mr <
turned-around and to44 him to-.clear-out, t Invited him up to see,

I asked him, I said, Why are you all coming to St, Augustine?\_____
-' ^ __\ ____ _______________* _____ \ \ \

We're coming here because I' Birmingham, Alabama ____

S............_______ "...... .lot of publicity,\ \

\ .. .. older city _

C; Is it, is this also, maybe, was this the

S: I have written __

and I sat and talked to him and I said, Is there anything the city of St, Augustine

can do

a fellow

i, I like it in

------------~~--~- -- ----- ---------- --- -----

-- -- -~--


page 6


Scan say ... ...

Then about two days after I talked with him he came out and satd there had been 13

in the city of St. Augustine ___
T-- -- *-- - .- - ^ ^ ^- i----ii 11 ^ t.-' - "- - T--r *"' *^ ^*
\ \ .

public, publictty-wise the newspapers .... \\\

Now, if you go back before this happened, right after | went in to serve as commis-

sioner, one of the, I don't remember who it was

he wrote his parents that word was out on the campus there \__

IW L & '- C? students, white students\_
. L

stir up trouble and we wanted to be

C: That was, I guess, the feeling

~ ~ ~ ,. t, L v

prepared for it,

southern tow \\
southern towr \ \\
x . .

that time -you g three eFe a e \

I think even more maybe, than that is residential integration, That's the one

thing tkhI ..

This town is more integrated residentially than any community in the state of

Florida, I can take you to five different sections .

from our street on \ \\ ... \\\\\\

Broad Street

South Streetr '.

--- --- -- ------------ ----
`\' \\

page 7

S: Washington Street .

Central Avenue .....

But, uh....

C: You're talking about the, uh ...

S: Yes, and he told his, he told his parents something,

Well, just before the Easter holiday\

lonq distance call from Boston, Mass,.

fellow came around and

-\ \
Boston Bulls

fo you know Mrs. Peabody? And I said, No, I never heard of her, He said, you know

who she is? ......\\\

He said we're taping this party ..
r o G e
She's the mother of the governor of Massachusetts, George Peabody,\\ ... \_____

Did you know she's coming down here to cause trouble? I said, what will you do if

she comes down here and breaks your I..? And I said, Well, law is made for

everybody break the law \

The next day somebody handed me a paper from Baltmhor .. e /' ..

said, "Mayor of St. Augustine Threatens Governor's Mother,"\ "____

and that was -da--crtrid la remark. We have one set of laws that apply to everybody

and if she comes down here and breaks them _____

C: Just out of curiosity, while we're on that point, how about evaluating the press

coverage of St, Augustine.

S: Well, the press, when the thing first started, they came down here and set up

headquarters in and then they, they came direct \\\-\

Initially, wUSin it first started, I had a lot of mail from all over the country,

-- ~4*-~-*

page 8

publ ic opiniolt

""~` ~YK

TV and newspapers the trouble came .

television complete and 100 per cent, The ninety per cent,

the ninety five per cent of our population believe what s on televtson, or

what they read in newspapers, and they read nothing else for, to broaden their

knowledge of the -y-s-t-e, And I mailed in at least 73 tn favyoa.\X..... '.

St. Augustine relative to one<
. . . .. .

My mail was'r ,.p_______

my mail started reversing

now I got long distance telephone calls,

this is how it expressed .... .

C: How dp the, how did you reach a rpech

how did you become a spokesman for them?

S: Well this, this is a good point, I, my


every night when ___

And they would get up there, and boy


S. . situation: ,

..... .... \ .. K. \\K. V\ \\\ ,"

feeling is thatt\.'.'\ \ \\ ,

i think the. whole thing TS seet up:

reached out to ~e.A -

K .\

This was mch troublesome, We asked our state attorney'\ \\\

to come up here and see and listen to V/ It tI- *

breaking some law, and he came up here, listened to us, said___ , '_ \'

they got the freedom of speech! they can go up there, and

say anything they want, you can't do anything about it, This 1sI \"' "

this is V this Is\\\\\

Law enforcement officers In the districtK\

-- --

I --arr~TI~

- ,~-r*~i~


page 9

S; Daytonq,

C: The reason t say that s remarkable rs, th-~. ame \ '.\ \ \\,

later criticized the people,,,

S: I know he did,

C: .,.for letting, letting Lynch and, h r become 4po esmen for the


S: It's, it's a plain damn Ile, He went, he went to Boston, talked before a Roston

University crowd, I believe, and said that we, the city official, did nothing to
/~o > ifo c V(7 f( / I o& Mr
stoIe -t / ovr /-,
stop n (av\c tyAJ We did all we could do-and-h-9-t+N,

"You can't touch them,' Then he goes up to Baltimore and says we would do notLIng,

They don 't think\. .........
They. ..... .....!n. ...... .. ...... .. .. .." v ____," \ .';, \ ...

televised, we could tell where everything was going to happeni' Just watch the

television police, police department could tell, we could tel\' v, "'".
......... .... demonstration, and a lot of t was was

arranged, put on People were actually

-ay-- whites weps look< like they were beating blacks up and whites wasn't, it

was a terrible lie, \K

C: What, uh, what sort of sheriflri -. ? 0, Davs-?

., . ... ... ., .. ..

situation DL 0, Davis had the support of the black community, It's

comparable to ... ld man

.. __h___ ad a store down in Washington Street,\\\

S.not kno . .nd not card.. . \'
*\\ not know and not care \\
. . . . . . . . . . . *, ^ ^ * * \ ^ ^ ^

O v r r i t-t

page 10

C: Was,


.. ........... \\ \ \\ \\ .

L..cy . -, X

. .- - - . .- . . . .- . ^

they televised him, They, they never asked ine or televised me, They represented

him to the American people\ 5' oT/ ..

cross section of the people \ .. .. .......\

C: How about, uh, you told me that Boston is, bow about, uh, the press coverage in

th e . . ........ \ \ \

was it, will you describe it as inaccurate? As inaccurate as that publtc,

S: At least as inaccurate, maybe worse, We only had one, we only had one writer
one wr-tei`' \\,\

Ihad a young fellow, called me up about three days before EasteWr\\\'N\X\_y-

I had a prepared statement' ................. ... .. .... ... .. .

he came to my house on Easter Sunday morning, I had coffee with hmn I gave him the

statement, sat there and talked about it for two hours, hen he wrote the article,

he didn't mention one thing about this, He wrote the most biased, slarted, false

report I've ever.j seen .... ........ .. ..- ...

You know, I thought the press was supposed to quote the facts, not, not public


C: You know, at that time, before the time of the civil

rights "fo'/ 0 moral consciousness

of the nations, did you, did you feel, as a consequence that you were getting any

hearing at all?

S: Let me tell you about my personal feelings, I grew upQ '

on of my, two of my "g1s's \.. ". \ \\\ \\

and I was very sympathetic

was Lucy \'

_ __ ___C

p, g 11

S: and I made up my mind W4 05.
.. . . . .. . . . ..... . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . .

you just..

I think,
\, *1 ., \-, 71, \\\ 'k i ....._ _

C: Can you describe



_ __ r _ whIte

n ght ..... .. .... \

boys \ ...... ......
,.,7 ,,

police station 7.. 4+e called me up .. ..

two FBt agents' .

they came down from Indiana, they started interviewing these kids, \
* * * * * * * \ \ __ \ '

blacks or white

.. . I~'l tell you, he satd \ ..

I want a hundred years of you white people under my

heel like we've been under your heel, \ .._____ .

and be did, Mr,'\ __turned to me and he said, Boy, there is' '

C: So this was '63?

S: This was just just thing started

This was right in, no this was 13,

C: Oh, I'm sorry.
S : R i g h t i n f r o m ', 3 . . . . . . . . .

That wasn't the interesting way, the way people\ __'___


C: Yeah,



page 12


C: Uh, we were talking about, uh what uh, King and whether you were meeting or not,

S: Oh, he, he was coming in state for a day, maybe a night when he took off\\\\\\\'

SThe only time 1, I never did talk to him, He never came

and talked to me, Never asked to see me, Matter of fact, Andrew Young didn't
P Pt/M.
ask to see me; I seet for him, said, I want to see the 9"y ,______

Nobody, nobody involved 14 4f T mvv. / t.. ever asked -them to ome
f r esr 4r I? ;/j-* ,'iR e a ", .
-to-me., They -T 1 6/t o for, c )P they trzn Lt A,

r 0 #---- ,. /ty CA / '" 1nd they were frank, Andrew
------------ i- : ----- :

Young told me, said,"(We're dying on the vine, We've got to get some publicity

this summer and we need it fast and we need it quick,

C: Did ~e say why they were dying on the vine, just out of curiosity, were they losing

out to the maybe more militants or ________

S: I don't know. I don't know what the reason for it was, They weren't getting

publicity through the press, I guess,

C: Uh huh,

S: I don't remember, This is W1 I ' 7 /f / ...i .

C: What about uh Governor Bryant, was he pretty cooperative?

S: Up to a point and then be became just the reverse and ,11 tell you an n .tanse

__________ she disappeared& ___

ever since .

S. . .m. .. . . . . .

Did you have much work with K //

\. \\\

\ \\\,

page 13


that happened right at the end of this, About a month before the civil rights
Si i r iq 15 ;/71
S,/ 0 1364 signed- a law by Lyndon Johnson, 'K _____
Senator Smathers, t .a Smathers called up\ .t.' -w .\\.\
frO'1; rt 4>)/ T? //Plnv6r.5 / George Smathers campaign treasurer

Sti A, ran rf, .r t /,f/'t He called him up and said Lyndon Johnson,
the president, was very anxious to get this civil rights bill passed and signed
and wants it signed on the fourth of July, This was around sometime in June,and
he wants you to form a committee in St, Augustine, a biracial committee, call
Martin Luther King, and do anything he wants you to do,'tf Cooperate with him
so we can get this, give King the-victory,- 0'1 O' P7 St, Augustine
.1 fAt / r/ Well, Mr, o0/_ called me up :__ _..
and asked me if I knew J /(nfw tla- / /ty Y /a'/f Y/ /~,t

i and Mr, W I) told us what (,c/br ^r3_ aM
call him and talk to him about 0 ag a/ //l/! G nyr
(Orr "5 &ycui / 6n4p'ad Adt )'A Odia / '-'/i ir M"^
and we discussed and kicked it around and I kicked the ball andsald, Mr. "t/
you've lived here all your life and said, This Civil Rights Bill is going to
be signed in the next, V/ 1/ week, two, couple of weeks, We knew it was

Cr ,1 G, raki l. ., I said, When that happens, all this is going
to be finished,and I said, Now you do this, Ywere going to doubleccross your
friends /,, r "i cO'r' ir "'We're going to sell the community
out to give Martin Luther King the victory so we. can\ r 710_
y e'4 j^J /+c
any other communit- -s E eayee what we did in St. Augustine, we can do -t
any place else we want to d --th.at-_____
Another man that that man supported, Mr.\ that'ss the way you're
going to be, In fact \ wanted to______...........\\\\
Gcdnrc yer,,M

i j)he 4 l

page 14


.. r / '5
:right in his office .. h called ca4ed

-4sewn up and said, Pe b, he sa'd,"No dough or no dlc' .... ....... \\\\

/ W k1, oe r, Monday afternoon, Tuesday night, national television

came out, said, \/- ..--' - Tuesday night, na-
C< ^4,,, f t'-: try/<4
tional television came out Governor 'PaFiF- announces that he has formed a

bi-racial committee in St. Augustine, Well, all that group that attended that

meeting that night were r T f. y ..........

I sw a couple of them and in about thirty minutes they were all over trey /

house, 'EveryBdy ws all madi as a wet hen, and I got bereaghtrr1-tro the city

attorney O'f ft-
He said, The governor and .+t've got to

find out what's going on 5 ( /t (

tey- mayor cal l & the governor from my office in the morni'ng .
WVA lc
+t-was July 3 /e called the governor up and had him on the phone andTsatd,

"Governor R(/tp1 what in the worlds going on- "__


something a little fishy he* and he said, ; // / if you'll promise

that you'll never reveal this, I'll tell you, Of course me being a simple little

idiot--now I'm political '______
Sf7/ yIv# }-./ LvJ IJ /r He aid/'Well, the truth of it is

I haven't formed a committee in St, AugustineN I said, You mean to tell me,

Governor, and Robbie Andrew was listening in on the extension in his office, I

said, You mean to tell me that you formed no committee and -Zrt you told the
"S /1
people of the state of Florida that you had formed a committeeland he said, That's

right, I said, Do you mean you've lied to all the people in Florida and in the

United States'and he said, Now don't you start calling me names, man, I said,

' Look, you're a lying so-and-so, You said it yourself, You tell.us one thing

and you make an announcement on national television, and he d d it to pacify

fiv 4t i;



page 15

S: Senator Smathers and cdo- oym, the president and he hung up the phone in a

big huff, Well, I kept my word for about a year, year and a half and I satd, t

don't know why i should keep my word to a li r and then i Began to tell people

what tranrb&r+ed4. He never did form a committee and this was brought out in this

pamphlet here, it was very strange, no committeeand the next day, Thursday,

July 4, the Civil Rights Bill was signed into law but the announcement had been

made that a bi-racial committee had been formed and that was to get King out of

here with some kind of a victory a dC & o. a he was i'n

Washington when the president signed the bill, The minute that happened

everybody left this town.- Stoner left it Lynch left it, All the outside

agitators left its hy-t e .er r r" C '~; M/ elI w f

C: Well, you did have some problem afterward because Monson's restaurant had

thrown out,.,,

S: Now that is before the Civil Rights Bill was signed, That was at the height

of the demonstration,

C: Wasn't, wasn't that, I think I'm right here, I think you're wrong,


I think they 1 C,, '/ r/I
I think they tested. They went around and they tested some of the, some of the

Negroes who stayed tested the bill and then Manucyss,,,

You may be right, You may be right,

.,.picketed, picketed some of the restaurants,

You may be right because I, I, the dates _________

Didn't last much longer, but it..,

It didn't last a long, uh; they dtd, Manucy picketed and the reason they did it,

Monson was the headquarters of all the press and the televlston. / I '/4 tA

and ..\..I 4, "L\/


page 16

S: Vt n t o"'*J>pe u -g *

C: tecmttse-,,, V. ,i

S: I think that a lot of people thought f Tr ... \ .... \ .




Here's a statement that I made nA the morning, July 7, 1963,

Uh huh,

Shelley makes 9 statement to citizens on racial relations4 to the citizens of

St. Augustine. 4-NL the mayor of St. Augustine ws" y'

Uh, I have not\ J '1

I feel that it is incumbent on me to issue a statement,\ i 9brg.

-^ o*r Ci^ ^ a c o v'A c__ .____t

listen to the

j 8: cO R^I A I-

radio, reads the papers, or whatever-

/ r C,"t ,-** ..- ''^, (f 't ..<,



-~ ;- --

-i-s doing nothing to help the situation, But of even more importance, there has

been a failure 6 f I? !-( 1' *1 .,------- to speak out

-n QO 7/'/ subject, in an effort to build political

o-ouL-ar&i maintain themselves in office, politicians have resorted to the

old political j -ICA of using minority groups to accomplish

their objectives, In effect, such politicians seek the minority vote by calling

the .ip';o v n me \-/vI'~V If you don't vote for

me, those other people will misuse you, Not once have I heard of a single
fIder ;iFL or
-irtwi-ew .on the national/state level say that our Negro citizens that along

with equal rights go equal responsibilities, F t 0 -

association is that inalienable, inalienably a part of our Bill of Rights as

is freedom of speech, freedom of religion and pursuit of life, liberty and

happiness ti wrote this myself, ''

'(r would remind our citizens that justice demands a fair consideration of the right
cllcf/r( re' r- cL Y 4Sm
of/ few-in vTlt-ithe rse-of the words civil rights and equality have been misused

B 6~'~ I'

I !




, l,,JL

I~ --

_r -


page 17

S: .... -J '' h..........as become

law. There is no such thing in this world as two equal people, From the moment

of birth, Infants show individual differences, Some are physically stronger than

others. Some develop more rapidly. Others show defects, both mental and physical,

as they age, Some are born with natural talent,. God-given talent, if you wish, A

beautiful voice with which, voices with which to sing, How many Negro boys are

equal to.a Willie Mays on a baseball field? How many white boys are equal to

Stan Musial at the plate? How many Einsteins or / .', r 'r 'd-S are

there \~"/'J -'---' among us? No, even in God's eyes we are not equal,

but y-u have equal opportunities to prove the goodness or badness-e -g" \
SI a Sar< Spf Fr hc i f O" 4
Cr _____ Equal employment opportunity has beel\ '?..'' /e~J .-/,'S

ml equal rights, How they apparently fail to recognize that the key to this

problem is education. The drop-out rate in our public school system is the

of our education problem and hence, our employment problem,

and this problem is not peculiar to the Negro race alone, The drop-out rate In

the white race is entirely too high, In this day of automation and high tech-

nological requirements, an uneducated youth, both Negro and white, represent

a _"f,_H_ problem and often are unemployable except for common labor, but

here again lendr' OP both races have failed to attack this problem

vigorously. Integration of our public schools has not solved this problem,

Witness the public schools in Washington,

D,C. low/ They have been fully integrated for many

years and are a national disgrace to this e

i's--rnmefr educators in this country 5 LcON kM4IL to solve

this problem and it's still..,,

C: By the way, hadn't St, Augustine integrated its schools in '63?

S: We had the, yeah, the school was integrated and the parochial school, ______

was always an integrated school,

page 18

C: It was done, it was done voluntartly/0G 5 '

S: It was done on a volunatry Basis. tra ry-2, The finest educators in this

country seem unable to solve this problem, Therefore, I say that- you have
A. . . . . .
personal responsibility r .se act on.._______. '

The Laws are made in Washington but any;:X at of these laws, to great extent,

must come from ........... admonish

both our Negro and white citizens to beware the radical fringe in both places,

Use prudence and reason so that we may avoid the pitfalls which can destroy the

respect and friendship which are the foundations of a good race relation_.\\_\\\\

C: I appreciate wha4-you-ve-done

S: I'd like to .de- seme'\

C: Yeah, okay, yeah.

S: --

"The city commission of St, Augustine recognized the in t~e ty of the present

situation, Many cities have a_____a bol--shed te

problem, however this is r~Cpre d 'y /rS A- -

as passing the buck, No decision by a committee of this type could be ,_____

l_ "y on the city commission /) CA I.

of the legal implications involved, The city commission is responsible to all

the citizens and can we-orre accept recommendations from any committee which would

a possible law suit by adding a bona fide

legal status, Furthermore, a bi-racial committee \. ..

will polarize the white race the the Negro race and

___sometTrrg- 4 1~ .Ap,/ that there is

a racial difference because the city commission of St, Augustine interracial

stand that it is responsible for only municiple.'. \\".\\

facilities, Let me interject here that at that time the state of Florida had by.-

page 19

R; a trespass law and these were the things that, uh, the, these demonstrators

would do, They w~ e-go4?q )a a store downtown and lay all over the floor like

a and the people couldn't get in and out, They

were about to arrest, to call the police to come down there and remove them,

Onrrfy the state tresspass law, police department had not alternative accept to go

down and remove these people physically from the premises, I don' t '_l_ __--_

there's still trespassing law ifi f/ \

C: Yes?

S: I think there's still trespass law But they would t, tey wer they were the

state and these were the laws on which we made arrests-t-Fe ese -t5ey were violat,-i

ing _lct_ ____ for their own personal reasons Otx0 j 8 .1 /

It wasn't by ordinance, It wasn't by the city commission or a mandate from

the city government, The city commission has no legal or moral right to tell

any merchant how to operate his business, The decision, any decision to file

an order to ____._____ has been set forth in the

previous statement, fRegoaitqoII ldlo^ _____'_ut_ ./ _

making statements to that effect, Parents of teenage children should know -and

this, to me, is an important statement, cause I believe that right here is the

start of the lack of respect we have for law in this county today and it, I
Le Ce ,( C LC (
think it started back in the ivil fights Vovement, 4at kids, twelve, fourteen

years old--were urged to go out and break laws, any law, If you didn't like

the law, go out and break it-whether, it was a good law or a bad law7-not have it

changed through the legal process, just go out and break the law, And I predicted

then we were going to see tj. 4I rampant crime in this country based

on this Vreilit of young people to get out and if you dontt like

something do away with it. J/l0 Jlh fit and I think itWs< _

this country, I think it's coming fast, IParents of teenage children of both


page 20

S: races should know where their children are at all times and should not let them

to be put In a situation which can lead to trouble, It ts a responsibility of

parents to see that their children are home at an early hour and know whom

they are associating with all tfe- time, One of the Basic ingredients of good

citizenship Is a respect for law and order, I would ltke to take this opportunity

-4a CO V^'A C V\ OV.-t entire police department and the s.ei44efs. office

for the speedy and efficient handling of the recent, I, 7 uCucy o.

Such individuals have demonstrated good citizenship / rT b6- /1i i
\Z" poli ce P e '*eS.- \ \7V

f shooting. /',<, /1 lv / because -some things transpired earlier but

whenever did call the police department /?c/ 70L// /OL'Y *'^ ^

tiMjust let it 4 \ 6

1but certain individuals had demonstrated good citizenship and reported te police

the series of ins n es f . /c 7

C: Uh huh,


she told me

vJ as
C: 4-& there any bickering on the commission at all during that _____


S: I don't know

C: How about the business community, do they pretty much support or were they,,,,

S: tN, I think the best damn thing we ever had is I got the largest vote that was

ever given when I was elected to the city commission, I ran

two more, for two more times, was re-elected both times, One time I was unopposed

and I come within about thirty votes of getting and I got

within thirty votes of the__

page 21

S: in politics and God, I' was elected, re'elected'\ ..... ........ _

C: Thatts so, something..,,

S: I think with my, I think the community bustness-wese and alls supported.the city

commission and the city government,\ ...

C: Appreciate your time, I, I really want to.,,,. ran into one 7J -A /od0, 4 7y

who was really interesting, I .gao the Historical Society and there was an

election notice and I 55' 'I was '65,al sad4 "Attention, citizens of

our city, don't be mislead, It has been revealed that John Bailey, Carlton O'Neill

and Dr, Joseph Shelley made a secret pact with the National Association of

Negroes for Integration, It says two things; 1) to integrate all our schools,

motels, hotels and so on; and 21 to appoint Negroes to the quadracentennial

committee. Vote, it says.,.~- at the bottom, vote to elect R,C, Blackner, Jim

Dart and Harry Gutterman, Save our way of life,

S: Alright, let me tell you what happened on that, The morning ofAelection day

they put out 5,000 of those folders all over town, Daylight, on the morning of

election day, John Bailey and Carlton O'Neill called me up, Harry Guttermane 'f4t

on the commission,
C: Uh huh,

S: /i/({l W ir/i ,1 { / Ac ..,whols the other one?

C: > -t_____

S: __ t4y-were-on and that was a, that was, they

figured that wes-a-,'hme-trat by putting all those damn folders out that it

would be too late for us to counteract it. John Bailey called me up and Carlton

called me up, Carlton O'Neill was upset about it, He said, What are you going

to do? You ought to get on the radio and deny all of it, I said, Hell, Carlton,

anybody that knows me knows it's not true. Anybody who knows you and knows John

knows it's not true, I said, Don't let it bother you, Forget it, Well, I

page 22

S: I got the most number of votes and John Bailey got the next largest number of

votes, Carlton didn t win, Harry Gutterman was the third guy V_____ ._ "

tk l COmrJii~ 4L Ut+ 0' Blackner got beat, That was +r-the--t ,

C: Was Gutterman really involved in this thing? This \\ /J f.

S: I think he was behind it,

C: Yes?

S: Quite frankly, He was quite, he was a politician, Somebody was behind it and

I think it was somebody in that trio,,,

C: Well ,..

C: ...and I think he was the most likely prospect and I'm sorry that, that he's not

here to answer my accusation, but I really think he was probably,,,,

c: tWIf/i hI ,r UaZtN ,v'r' it **I? e /PL, 5

S: Huh?
for Y syf
C: ...he- commissionS Fse-e,

S: yo ~Jt-sk except he later, Harry) later ran for. He had a file

on about 1500 people in this town if he could get about 1500

votes, he could get electedf.0 Harry /f t SD, k /////1 '' C,/V

o&u had a, a small group of people in this town and he was like an actor on the

stage and he'd play up to the __

He didn't work, He was retired, He was, he'd been an enforcer for-e. __/e
Ut'0o f There was, I wasn't involved in that thing

cause I'm waiting on the city commission. He was on the commission before I was,

A group of guys tried to get

him removed from the city commission because he was,

he was arrested on a felony charge up there In New York some place for\\ .,.

some people down or the\ _

C: Do you know, do you think he really

That he.,,

page 23

S: No, he didn't think that. That was strictly politics, That was strictly


C, . he was .. .. .. . .

S: Oh, hell no, He knew \-5l f .. r

strictly politics,

C: What about im- Simpson;-eI Don Simpson?

S Don Simpson? I finally made a, finally passed a, a, Fn-my powers as\\__

mayor, I

I'm empowered, under the law; the mayor's empowered, under the law;____

to maintain peace in the community, In other words,, can get upAi ptb/'c ,fi
-, v W r/p get up and say, _.l Sa e hold your right hand Qe I can swear him in as

a deputy and say everyone here who takes this oath of office has got to obey me

right now and do what I tell them to do. The mayor has that right, I got that

from I have, I carried a paper with me

at all times so I could invoke that right T /A YOF \/^\ -.

and I invoked that, We were getting to the point where we were afraid that the

blacks weren't getting much of a following till at night, They decided to march

at night. They wanted to stir up violence and I think, now to be honest with

you, King and some of those people and Andrew Young and the rest of them wanted

to see some Negroes murdered in the city to really put the imprint on us, to

really give the Civil Rights movement the thrust it needed, just like happened

down in Philadelphia Civil Rights movement,

We were afraid that was going to happenQso I passed a what you call ~t a

_____ no marching from 8:30 at dark at night till 8:30 in the

morning. They could march all day long, but because we ve got poorly lighted

streets and real narrow streets, real dark and hard to police we felt we couldn't

protect thel '.jf );, \n/\ \ Judge Simpson said they could

march, They could march any time they wanted to, Well, i overruled Mr. Judge

Ptppr CTil



rrJd ) J- 1


page 24

Simpsonr l'Q If O e' called mre.f or .a .._/_i court,
tef--c court q5 I _________

Ltill at that stage i't was back Th \ ~r e at f we-aee4-e

fL^f, Iry0)4- and Jimmy *Ki-res-was attorney general of the State
of Florida _______.. ' .......... and he had them reply

by the v+- Ift i' a'idt and federal court,andc I spent nine.F
days on this court and t never heard such,f Mr, Ku nsjter ano\ .. .

s-i-4e4--i4 were the two attorneys for the American Civil Liberties Unionand that
i? / /5. h^ 0hDK Wes maJt 0f.\ / !-.
fy_ __r_ 't-Uthem sheti-d what he-be&d Feer--ee* '/ -Cc

this country what a, what a, I don't know what. He should have been barred from

law practice, He broke every rule he court /OC a / i /o
let him get away with it, It was obvious up thereAJudge Simpson had been made

a promise by the President of the United States that if he would let them do what
they wanted to that he'd be promoted and he was promoted to the Fifth Circuit

of Appeals. We had Chester who was the finest lawyer in Florida
at that time.

Jacksonville. He and Judge Simpson were close personal friends and they fell out
completely -~ Judge Simpson to the court, He
just let this guy Jf!I _____i do anything he wanted to, He'd
browbeat witnesses. I got so mad one day in that court I got up and stomped
out right in the middle of court and walked out in the hallway,and Charles
Vi i A Chuck i ___ was down here representing NBC

or CBS 1t'5 '/ )--V/'v kf y lJ on television once in a while.


S: He was there for two years, i talked to him many times and he was a great admirer

of Martin Luther King and we would discuss all angles of it, I walked out of

that courtroom and ,4 \\ walked up behind me, followed me out and

hesaid, Well, mayor what do you think of the proceedings? I said, I think they're

page 25

S: the loustest, this is the lousiest damn thing t've ever witnessed," The way

j-fi. ^ f A H e had a young Florida highway patrolman witnesslTg and
he was ,browbeating that boy and trying to cross him up and contradict himqnd

the boy was smart, He was going to law school\ 5 f "''\'' He studPe'

o b the- law/ and .,ul), kr couldn't cross him up but he just used every

tactitche -need -to use to try to make him lose his temper and it got so bad

I got up and left the room, 0____. ". followed me out and right ber

hind him there was a big old marshall, federal marshall about six foot two
and he and I got to be real good friends and as a matter of fact i think he is

still up in Jacksonville____ ________

and he walked out behind if :" .ws out in the hall because

he was ....... and I turned the-oesene and he said, W=0., what do you

think about r'(1 ?____ I said, ListenAno good son of a bitch you

I said,ll'm fed up to here with you and your tworfaced way you're handling the

way you talk to-* LT and I said, I'm fed up with that judge in there and I'm

fed up with that farce MtFaE '-'ie that's going on that they're calling a trial~

and I said, Don't you ever come up and talk to me again, I said, I don't want

to see you again. I don't want to talk to you again, What do you mean, what

do you mean? I said, If you don't get away from me I'm liable to hit you right

between the eyes, That was the only time I lost my temper in two years and he

turned around, he got right and walked off and left as and when he did that big

marshall came upl to me and reached out and grabbed my hand and shook it and said,
0 n
"Mayor,*! wished you would have hit him. He said, I feel the same way about this

as you do. That was the biggest,-- ,-'J'e son sat in that court-
i1 f 0f D room with a I11b girl,-' had a lot of people from St, Augusttne
OI OitQd4 necked her and kissed her and hugged her and not

once did Judge Simpson ever say, That will not happen in my courtroom, When

something humorous happened and some of the people in St, Augustine snickered

page 26
mjb b/,

S: / cf and say, if yallI do that again., tlI clear this
/9 -e ) ^ r /1O e.
courtroom. That's how biased he was, Well, made jy t t MF, Judge

Simpson, I talked to my Brother, who is an attorney, and my wife and I said,
/ r / A/
If this guy fines me a thousand dollars. thirty days In Jail, I''m going to -ge

(0 ahead terd -feU4ms end me to jail for contempt, for three -monthsAvtm-ge-~ to

'i4 because I'm not going to- ac/ S0 t ... and let Judge

Simpson run like that and while our trial was in progress, the Civil Rights

Bill was signed and the law it o____ __

The trial was never completed.
\\ \ \\

S: Yeah, he went to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals.- He was promotedand I think

he was bought and paid for by Lyndon Johnson,- R let this guy Kuhnstler get
In # #1rc ,.l f ;i ,I
away with murder ae4 /1 Crf rom. I. tW `s si ever

since. I don't understand how the guy gets away with it, His conduct in the
courtroom.- '1f any other lawyer, anyplace else, anywhere else did that, he'd

be absolutely thrown in jail. Any judge would throw the lawyer in jail\\ 4f' *4:7'
ahow ti and he did that He got so m ___________ toy.

-; ra=pFaft; S f anyf He parted over- -a~ l-eidn-d -, he d4idnl-t stay tA2e


S: We asked Judge Scott ruled in favor of us and

one thing wanted the court about.\\ _____

y______, Judge Scott, a federal Judge& -./fi(
fA* have you
-t~re. Incidentally, A\ looked up the report of the Florida Legislative Investi.

gattve Committee? Have you seen that report?

C: Yeah,

S: They disbanded that organizations ~ .. They did come down after

all this transpired and conducted an investigation, I' had theR / L .A<\ g

page 27

: . . . . . . .. . . . . .

Is there anything that you haven't told me that you thing will\ \ \

S: No, except I think it took a while for relations to get back where they\ ,_

I think they are as good now as they were before all this

happened and still feel the same way I did before all this\ ____

I say I still feel the same way, I was very sympathetic towards the black people

and their plight. I'm not as sympathetic today because\ JA1 A

they'll just i fAk is a bad deal, I 4a-t

our education is still the answer to it and some of them don't want to do it,

They don't want to workrand I think the ____

out in California started+his case where he was denied medical school and somebody



S: Well they don't want to


S: They don't want it to go to Supreme Court and I think they're afraid that they'll

rule in favor of this boy that's its really going to be a blow to

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