Title: Pinellas County vs. Southwest Florida Water Management District, Volume II
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/WL00001951/00001
 Material Information
Title: Pinellas County vs. Southwest Florida Water Management District, Volume II
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
 Subjects
Spatial Coverage: North America -- United States of America -- Florida
 Notes
Abstract: Pinellas County vs. Southwest Florida Water Management District, Volume II, January 21, 1980
General Note: Box 9, Folder 18 ( State of Florida Division of Administrative Hearings - 1980 ), Item 1
Funding: Digitized by the Legal Technology Institute in the Levin College of Law at the University of Florida.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: WL00001951
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Levin College of Law, University of Florida
Holding Location: Levin College of Law, University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.

Full Text
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STATE OF FLORIDA
DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS


PINELLAS COUNTY, a political
subdivision of thd State of Florida,
et al.,

Petitioners,


vs.


SOUTHWEST FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT, an administrative agency
of the State of Florida,

Respondent.


VOLUME II


) CASE NOS.
) 79-2325R
) 79-2392R
)
)
)


PROCEEDINGS:

BEFORE:


DATE:

PLACE:



REPORTED BY:


Final Hearing.


Honorable Diane Tremor,
Hearing Officer.

January 21, 198&0.

Chamber of Commerce,
801 Kennedy Boulevard,
Tampa, Florida.


Donald Kanabay,
Registered Professional Reportei


Kanabay iantbah g CERTIFIED MERIT REPORTERS
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
283 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
180 FIFTH STREET NORTH
ST. PETERSUURG. FLORIDA 33701
PHONE Wl-3320


12.


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1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay, back on the record.

2 -I believe, Mr. Allen, you had one or two more questions

3 MR. ALLEN: Yes, ma'am.

4 We would offer -- I forgot to offer this into

5 evidence as Petitioner's Exhibit Number 1.

6 MR. BLAIN: And we would object to that being

7 offered in evidence.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Why is that? What are your

9 grounds, sir?

10 MR. BLAIN: On the grounds that it is misleading,

11 that it has no information on there that has not been

12 introduced, that it is an improper exhibit. That if it

138 S for the purpose of showing the location of the well

14. fields, that's one thing, but it shows other things

15 that are improperly labeled, and have not been

16 -sufficiently identified or explained by Mr. Finney.

17 MR. ALLEN: Soun.ds like a nice catch-all objection

18 I don't think it is definitive.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: I will receive the document

20
.as it relates to the testimony of Mr. Finney thus

21 far. In other words, as to those matters he testified

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to. If there are other things on there that he did not

testify to, I won't know what they are, anyway.

24 (Whereupon Petitioner Pinellas County's Exhibit

25 Number 1 for identification was marked and received in


Ktbag Iaab OFFICIAL C URT REPORTERS
S263 PINELAS COUNTY BUILDING
tO0 FPirH STREET NowrT
ST. PErmfRUSas FLOIDOA 33701


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evidence as Petitioner Pinellas County's Exhibit Number

1.)


(Whereupon Mr. Finney resumed the stand.)


DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)


BY MR. ALLEN:

Q Mr. Finney, do you know how much was paid for the

Cross Bar Ranch?

A Yes.

Q What is that?

A 4.8 million dollars.

Q -And we already have the acreage on there, do we


not?


A Yes.

Q How many acres are there?

A 8,060.

Q Concerning Pinellas County's Exhibit Number 6,

which is marked proffered, objection sustained by the

Hearing Officer, do you have with you the documents that

you ,sent to the respective municipalities and entities-

present now with you?

A Yes.

MR. WENDEL: Excuse me, now, Madam Hearing

Officer. Do we understand that we're now going to

go back in, and he's going to attempt to redeem his


&J~n OFFICIAL C.AdT REPORTRWs
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDIaoI
1SO FPFT STRuET NOrTH
ST. PETErrSURG. FLORIDA 33701




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1iaha 'A I"1 OFFICIAL COURT RMPORKMRS'1
263 PINL.LAS COUNTY BUILOIN"
10 Firtm StrET NORTH
ST. PrrTERSURo. FLORIDA 33701


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own witness? I really strenuously object.

MR. ALLEN: What do you mean, redeem?

MR. WENDEL: Excuse me. What's good for the

sauce of the goose is good for the sauce of the gander.

If you will please hold it-until I finish my objection,

then you'll have the floor. ,

We objected. You sustained it. The man's

lack of knowledge about the matter was evident to all

of us here. Obviously, during the lunch hour, they

attempted to redeem his testimony in this regard by

retrieving some aspect of his files. I think it is

highly improper and prejudicial to us.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I believe the question was

placed to him before, if he had that document, and

the answer was no.

MR. WENDEL: Precisely.

MR. ALLEN: That's right. We went to his office

in Pinellas County and obtained this documentation,

because they raised the objection.

MR. WENDEL: It's called being prepared for trial,

ma'am.

MR. ALLEN: Well, Madam Hearing Officer, there is

nothing in the law to prevent us, if you sustain an

objection, to try to lay a sufficient predicate. That

is our privilege during the time that the trial is going


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131

1 on. I don't know of any rule of law that prohibits

2 us from doing that.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't see how you would

.4 be prejudiced at this time.

5 MR. WENDEL: Well, perhaps since his testimony

6 is diametrically opposed to what it was this morning,

7 'they'd give us the courtesy of letting us look at the

8 Adifferent matters which they propose to introduce.

9 MR. ALLEN: Well, in what respect, Counsel, do you

10 represent to the Hearing Officer that Mr. Finney's

11 testimony: is diametrically opposed to what he has

testified to?

M3. WENDEL: Madam Hearing Officer, I am not in

14 the habit of answering questions by opposing counsel.

15THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's move on.

18
Are you proposing to introduce something else

17 at this point in time?

f18 MR. ALLEN: I am attempting to substantiate the
10
documentation and figures.

10 MR. BLAIN: We would object to the entire line of

questioning. We understood before lunch that Mr. Allen

was through. Mr. Allen then says after lunch he has

more questions, and he forgot to offer the map into

evidence. It is offered over our objections. Are we

to go through other parts of the testimony? Are we

Kstwhivy LI Ksnab~ wFc.L COURT REPOWITRS
263 P NIsuAS COUNTY BUILDING
150 FIrHr STUCT NORTH
S. MPrTKneURG. FLORIDA 33701




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re-opening his,Direct?

THE HEARING OFFICER: Would you like to respond,

Mr. Allen?

MR. ALLEN: It is true that I did announce, but

there wasn't anyone ,else that had assumed taking over

the testimony of Mr. Finney, and I think that we could

appropriately do this at this time. You know, Mr.

Apgar can do the same thing that I'm doing, and I just

think that this is -- we're trying to utilize extreme

technicalities in a hearing that the Hearing Officer

indicated we were not going to be doing, and I think

it is entirely within the procedures to follow.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, I don't see how you

would be prejudiced.

MR. WENDEL:- Then you will give us wide latitude,

I presume, to interrogate the witness on Cross?

THE HEARING OFFICER: If he again attempts to -

MR. WENDEL: Particularly in light of the fact

that the witness answered the question that he did not

have these matters present at the earlier session.

Thank you.

BY MR. ALLEN:

Q For the record, Mr. Finney, where did you get

those documents?

A They were delivered from my office.


latuibhag &t Kltbag ownciA. couwrMr
263 PINtCLAs COUNTY BUILDING
150 PWI- S~tarT NOnT
ST. PETRmsSumo. FLORIDA 33701




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Q During the noon hour?

A During the noon hour.

Q Did you have them here at the hearing to .begin

with during your other testimony before the noon hour?

A No.

Q What are these particular documents that you have

-n your files here?

A The letters that were circulated to obtain the

survey of the water use.

Q Tell me, in what form are they all in the

same form?

A Yes,

'Q ;nd what form is there that they are in?

A It's a letter, in letter form.

Q An4 then I notice some signatures at the bottom.

What are those?

A That's for the person who filled out the form.

MR. WENDEL: I object to the question and move

that the answer be stricken from the record. He has

no way of knowing from his earlier testimony that that

bit of handwriting there was placed there by the person

who filled out the form. He didn't see them. He has

no way of testifying to that.

MR. ALLEN: I don't think it's necessary, as long

as he sends it out in the form of his letter, to an


tabtMbg &W^ Oana oRAca IcouIrT MwPOwIms
2s3 PINWLLAs COUNTY DUILWDtG
t10 FIMVI STmKr NORTH
T. P1rTlURlr FLORIDA 33701 '




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anabsd.& a bag OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
26) PINELLA* COUNTY BUILDING
t10 FNIFTHrrmIT NORTH
ST. PlrrTuiaui. FLORIDA 33701


individual, and then he receives it back in the mail,

and it is sent to the address.

THE HEARING OFFICER: If that is what each of the

doCuments shows, I would agree.
**

MR. ALLEN: Yes, ma'am.

BY MR. ALLEN:

Q And did you receive each of these documents back?

A Yes.

Q And then did you then take and compile, using

that information, the information'that's on Exhibit 6?

A Yes.

MR. ALLEN: As a composite exhibit, I .would now

offer into evidence this documentation which would'be

a compilation of each one of these particular letters

into evidence as Petitioner's Exhibit Number 6.

MR. WENDEL: Objection.

Mr. Finney, may I see that, please?

EXAMINATION

BY %R. WENDEL:

Q Mr. Finney, what you are telling us, I believe,

is that when I asked you this morning if yoa had a letter or

a copy of a letter that you sent out, with you, you told me

no, correct?

A Correct.

Q And in order to assist your case, at lunch time


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you had your office bring these documents over to you, is

that correct?

A Correct. .

Q Have you reviewed each and every one of these

documents?

A I looked at each -- I don't know what, at what

time. I don't know at what time --

Q In the last two hours?

A I just glanced through them.

Q Have you reviewed each arid every one of these

documents?

A I have touched every one of them. ;

Q How many are there?

A I don't know. I didn't count them.

Q Is each one signed by the person to whom you

addressed it?

A No.

Q No? Does the receipt of these documents give you

any further information about the time frame in which the

information was gathered by the person who purportedly

responded to them?

A No.

Q So in other words, all those other questions I

asked you about who got the information, when the information

was gathered, the relevancy of the information, the time


an2tikaba & Katara oiCAL counT RiOnRmaO
263 PINLLAs CooWNT BUILDINe
1S0 PFIrtH STrwgT alOr
ST. PETRMSURa. FLORIDA 33701







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iUtu m t OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
283 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDbI
ISO FIFTH STRarr NORTH
ST. PWETSIrURG. FLORIDA 33701


136


frame -- all of those things you'd have to answer in the

same way?

A No.

Q Well, what would you answer differently?

A The time frame that -- after reviewing these

documents, gave me an idea of the time frame that they were

sent -forward.

Q Well, tell pe, after looking at those documents,

how that's true.

A Th#e document went f&rth on December 13.

Q Of what year?

A 1979. i

Q And show me wherein you specify in that document

that the information had to fall within a particular time

frame.

A It doesn't.

Q Oh. It might make a difference, then, if the

information that the respondent used was gathered in 1975,

then, mightn't, it?

A Yes.

Q Or how about 1976?

A Yes.

Q '77?

A Yes.

Q '78?


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1 A Yes.

2 Or '79?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Now, can you tell me that the information that you

5 got in response to all of these multitudinous documents is

6 current and accurate?

7 MR. ALLEN: Madam Hearing Officer, I Object to

8 these questions, because the documents speak for

9 themselves. But for your consideration in this matter,

10 this letter asks for an updating of the particular

11 documents. It is sent out in December of 1979.

12 Mr. Finney has testified that he received them no

13 later than in January of 1980, and compiled them, and

14 it asks for an update. The documents show on their

15 face a request for current information.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: An update from what?

17 MR. ALLEN: From 1975.

_18 MR. WENDEL: What does that mean? If you look at

19 the paragraph:

20 "Attached is a copy of a chart taken from a

21 report prepared in November, '75, by our consultants.

22 We have marked in yellow the information relative to

your water system. We are requesting you update this

24 information on the bottom of this letter and return

S25 it in order that we can start preparing this new table.


Katub & Inab g OFFICIAL COcURT REPORTS
263 PINRLLAs COUNTY BUILDINto
ISO FIrnT STRIan NORTH
ST. P117E6 Ufe. FLORIDA 33701





13.8

1 So what?

S2 MR. ALLEN: So what does the word "update" mean

3 to anybody tbat understands the English language?

4 MR. WENDEL: That's.the question, Mr. Allen.

5 MR. ALLENs Butthat again goes to the weight of

S 6 something, rather than its admissibility. It is

7 Obvious that the intent of this document is to find out

8 if those figures have changed from that time until

9 the time that the inquiry is made.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: I would agree that that

11 goes to the weight.

12 MR. WENDEL: Please permit me to show you

18 something. I have grabbed at random here five

14 different letters. They're not completed, any of

15 them. There's no time frame on there. He didn't

16 say, "Bring us up to date for the year 1979." He

17 didn't say, "Bring us up to date for .the fiscal year

18 ending September 30, 1979." He did nothing to give

any substantiation for the value of the survey.
20
Now, his answers to my questions are
21
21 virtually precisely the same as they were before lunch

22
time. The only thing he's done that he didn't do

before lunch is say, "I now have the letters with me."

But if we're going to accept these letters,

25 then of course the survey isn't necessary, is it?


I~ttahbU & I'Ianlm OFFICIAL COURT REPORnTRS
243 PIl LLAS COUNTY BUtDILIN
15O FIPUR STRlRT NORTH
ST. PETERr BuR. FLORIDA 33701




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causee the best evidence s the letter itself. The

'-objection -s still there, that -any -of thtes things

ave -absolutely nothing -to do with ~the Southwest

Florida Water Management District.

A-- d unless he categorizes each particular

letter as coming within -the -scope -of Swiftmand, and

therefore :in some way being pertinent to the Rule,

then the objection of .aiteriality or pertinency is

well taken.

MR. ALLEN: Well, first' of all, Counsel has

stated on the record that these are not filled in,

.and they aze. Where they're applicable, they're filled

in. And where it's indicated, they're tabulated.

.And again, Madam Hearing Officer, what we

are introducing this for is to show the fact of the

arbitrariness of this Rule, if it is applied statewide

or districtwide, it doesn't make any difference, it

demonstrates the amount of acres that each of the water

systems throughout the State will have to obtain just

to keep what they have at the present time. So on that

basis, I think it's obviously admissible.

MR. WENDEL: I don't wish to prolong the argument,

but I think we could go back and have the reporter

read my questions that I asked the gentleman before

lunch, and I think the answers would be the same.

KOFh & Eanaa wItCU REPoIRS
2;3 PtIMLLAS COUNTY BUILDtNG
15O FIFHr STRt" NorTH
ST. PtTm aSURS FLOMIDA 33701


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140


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: I am going to stick to my

S2 earlier ruling, that I will allow you to offer it

3 as a proffer at this time, if you so desire, what has

4 already been marked as Exhibit 6.

5 MR. ALLEN: All right.

86 THE BEARING OFFICER: If you'd like to include the

7 letters as part of the proffer, you may.

8 MR. ALLEN: Yes, I would.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

10 (Petitioner Pinellas County's Composite Exhibit

11 Number 6 for identification was marked as a proffered

12 Composite Exhibit.)

13 MR. ALLEN: I don't have any further questions.

S14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

15 Mr. Apgar, was it your intent to call this

16 witness as your own?

17 MR. APGAR: At this point in time, it is not my

18 intent to call him as my witness. I don't have any

19 questions of him at this point.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: None on Direct or

21 Cross-examination?

22MR. APGAR: No Cross-examination.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right.

24 Mr. Blain.

Excuse me. Let me ask you if this would be


15Wt1bP & jabag OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINELLA COUNTY BUILDINO
180 FIFTH STREET NORTH
ST. PTERSUURo. FLORIDA 33701







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helpful to you.. I don't know if the City of St.

Petersburg would have anything in the way of Cross,

but if they do, would it be more helpful to you for

them to put on their Cross first? I'm afraid that once

they did, you may want to come baQk to it, anyway.

MR. BLAIN: That's correct. Yes, it would be

more helpful.

-TE HEARING ~IFLCER.* Do you have any problem

with that, Mr. Linn? Or do you have any questions

of the witness?

MR. LINN: You mean, my participating in the

Cross-examination so there will be no repeat?

THE IMEARING OFFICER: Right.

MR. LINN: I have no objection tothat procedure.

THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. Do you have

any questions of the witness?

MR. LINN: No, I do not.

THE HEARING OFFICER: All right.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. BLAIN:

Q Mr. Finney, how much water is presently being

taken from the Cross Bar Ranch Well Field?

A None.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I didn't hear the question.

MR. BLAIN: How much water is presently being


OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINmLLAS COUNTY BUILDtIN
S0 FISrH STmaET NORTH
ST. PETERBURG. FLORIDA 33701





142

.1 taken from the Cross Bar Ranch Well Field?

S .2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

8 BY MR. BLAIN:

4 Q How much could be taken from the Cross Bar Ranch

8 Well Field at the present time?

S 6 A Today?

Q Today.

9 A None.

9 Q What is the limiting factor as far as removing

10 water from the Cross Bar Ranch Well Field?

1i A Could be construction of a pipeline between

12 Cross Bar and Cypress Creek. ;

13 Q Are you familiar with the details of the

14 construction of that pipeline?

15 A No.

16 Q Are you familiar with the schedule for the

17 projected completion of that?

18 A No.

19 Q You don't have any idea of when they anticipate

20 that they will start being able to start serving water

2 through that pipeline?

42 A Yes.

SQ What is that idea or opinion?

A April or June of this year.

25 April or June?


IuazJabapg & KiaSUna OFCIAL COMURT aEPOR *ER
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
50 FIFTH STREET NORTH
ST. PrETENBUnO. FLORIDA 33701







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Well Field

A

Q

A


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Yes.

Who owns the land?

It is under lease to us.


NIa pbaig & anabag O A C RPOR
203 PINmLLAS COUNTY BUILDING
ISO FtIFT STREET NORTM .
ST. PTrrERBURG. FLORIDA 33701


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A April or 4une.

0Q All right. Are the wells completed in Cross Bar?

A I can't answer that.

Q Are the internal pipelines within the Cross Bar

Well Field completed, connecting the wells together?

A I can't answer that.

Q How many wells are there in Cross Bar?

A I can't answer that.

Q When they start removing water from Cross Bar,

pursuant to the permit that you described before lunch,

where will this water go for treatment?

A The water will be chlorinated and discharged into

the 66-inch main. I don't know where the point of

treatment is.

Q Do you know where the pipeline --

A It goes from Cross Bar to the vicinity of Cypress

Creek.

Q Cypress Creek. Do you know who owns the land at

Cypress Creek?

A Not completely.

Q Do you know who owns the land at East Lake Road


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Q

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East Lake

A

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A

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pur e?

purpose?


A Not at present.

Q Is it prevented from being used for some other

purpose because of Pinellas County's using it for a well

field?

A No.

Q Do you have the right to keep people from using

that, keep the owners from using that land because you have

the well field established on it?

A I can't answer that. I have never read the

lease agreement.

Q Do you know how many wells are on the East Lake

Road Well Field property?

A Eight in production.

Q Eight in production. How much water was taken


Kaahgag t& Laeg OFFICIAL cou ftTREPOTIEs
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
150 FIFH STRIIT NORTH .
ST. PErrTERUM FLORIDA 33701


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Who is "us"?

Pinellas County Water.System.

Pinellas County Water System holds the lease on

Road?

Yes.

Sow much of that land do they lease?

Five thousand eight hundred some-odd acres.

Do they have total use of that land?

For water rights.

Is that land also being used for some other







out of

A

Q


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the East Lake Road Well Field in the last year?

I don't have that record at hand.

Are you pumping it now?


A

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of the Eas

A

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Lake Road

County?


A Yes.

Q How much?

A I don't have those figures, sir.

Q But it is done under your jurisdiction, under

your authority?

A Yes.

Q You manage it?

A Yes.

Q Is that correct?

A Yes.

Q You testified that you could take a lot more

water out of East Lake Road Well Field except for the

limitation of the water crop, is this correct?


a I & K albag OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
ISO FrrFT STRETr NORTH .
ST. PETERSUURG. FLORIDA 33701


145


No.

How long has it been since you took any water out

t Lake Road Well Field?

I don't have a date, sir.

Any idea?

Couple of months, three months.

Has any water ever been removed from the East

Well Field since you've been with Pinellas

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A Yes.

2 Q How much more water can you take out of it?

3 If it were not for the limitation of the water crop?

A I have neyer made a hydrolic study.

5 Q Have you ever taken the maximum amount that you

16 are allowed to by permit at the present time?

7 A I doi't have the pumping records here, sir.

S Q Could you estimate that you have ,used as much as

9 one million gallons average from East Lake Road during the

10 past two years?

11 A I wouldn't know that, sir.

12 Q Are you familiar with any of the water;crop

13 problems that have arisen at kast Lake 'Road?

14 A Yes.

15 Q What are they?

16 A Limited pumping to control chlorides.

17 Q Control chlorides?

-18 A Yes.

19 Q What does that indicate, when you talk about

20 chlorides?

21 A That is a measure of chlorides as chlorides.

22Q Is that the way you measure salt water?

A You can measure it as chloride, as sodium

24 : chloride, or you can measure chlorides as chlorides.

25 Q But how would you measure salt water?


isanabag & KaEtsabqa oemci. couwr R.powmrw
263 PImNLLAS COUNTY BUILDING
0SO FIFTH STREET NORTH .
ST. PrnrIsBuno. FLORIDA 33701




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problem.

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The way the salt water interface comes in with the


SWtabag U Saf" 263 PINELLAS COUNTY UILmDIN
WO Fwrm STrmer MovuH .
ST. PrrVMeuRo. FL IIDA 33701


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A If I was seasu=ing the chlorides in salt Jatar,

ZVd measure them as chlorides, as chlorides.

Q And that would -indicate the difference betweenn

frash water and salt water, as to what the chloride content

is?

A Yes.

Q Zs -that correct?

A Yes.

Q All right. Could you explain for us some of the

salt water intrusion problems that you had, or chloride

problems, as you term it,' at East Lake Road Well Field?

A They were prior to my time, sir.

0 And have you studied thcse records, the quality

records, the reports?

A Limited study.

Q Limited?

A Yes.

Q But you have studied them sufficiently so you could

have an opinion that if it were not for the water crop, that

you could take a lot more water from East Lake Road?

A Yes.

Q All right. Explain+ that to me, how you can take

more water when you have a chloride problem, a water quality




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fresh water, as you move to the east, the probability of

increasing chlorides or having chlorides, if you should

take that water to the east, on some of the properties we

leased, would permit us to take additional water.

Q Do-you consider yourself to be an expert on

water quality problems?

A I know chemistry of water.

Q What do you mean when yoq. say, "fresh water/salt

water interface"?

A That is the relationship of where the chlorides

and the fresh water come together.

Q All right. And what causes salt water, this

salt water/fresh water interface to move? What are some

of the causes, the things that would cause it?

A Oh, lack of rainfall, pumping.

Q Increased pumping or reduced rainfall, either

one would cause it to move?

A Yes.

Q How would you prevent the chlorides from

increasing or the fresh water/salt water interface from

moving inland or upcoming, if you are going to increase

the withdrawals at East Lake Road?

A With monitoring wells.

Q Monitoring wells will prevent it from moving?

A It will, it will indicate your problems, and you


O OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
203 PINtCLA COUNTY BUILoINO
180 FIFTH STR T NORTH
ST. PETERSuURG. FLORIDA 33701


? IL




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.I, ta- aSI_ b acik on your pumping if this became a~_prQblM.

J i z tsn't that, in fact, why you cut hack to. nothing

,. wn it? --= -

4. A +e ... =_. -.-

Q 1sa't that why you only used an average- of

6 740,000 gallons per day during the year 1978, and only

.800,000 per day during 1979?

A I'm not familiar with those figures, sir.r

*I Q You are not familiar with any figures as to what

+10 yeu use out there?

11 A Noo, air.

s Q0 Are you familiar with the fact that that well

18 field hasn't been pumped in over four months?

S14 A Possibly, yes.

15 Q And yet you are testifying that you have a

1 Shortage of water and need more water?

17 A Not at this time, sir.

-18 Q Are you testifying that you could take more water

19 out of this well field if the water crop were not being

t / applied in some mysterious way?

21 A With additional wells, yes.

2 Q Do you desire to put in additional wells?

SS A Some have been constructed already, sir, and I -

14 0 No, you are saying with additional wells. Do you

25 desire to put in additional wells?


KUntRIm$d & 34.faba OFWICIoAL COURT RE-POTwRS
24* PINCLLAS COUNTY BUILDING
ISO Fifrr STCNET NORTH
iT. PTr*snumea. FLORIDA 3370t





15(


S25


A We have no plans at this time, sir.

Q When is your Eldridge-Wilde Well Field permit

coming up for renewal?

A December of 1980.

Q When is the Cypress Creek Well Field coming up

for renewal?

A If I remember, the same, approximately the same

time.

Q All right. How much water is Pinellas County

selling to the Pasco Water Authority?

A About 5 million gallons a day.

Q Are you familiar with the contractual arrangement

between Pinellas County and the Pasco Water Authority?

A .Yes.

Q Explain that to us.

A It's limited to -- they're limited to a use of

10 million gallons a day.

Q Do you anticipate selling them more water than

that?

A That will have to be considered at the proper

time.

Q You haven't considered it yet?

A I haven't, no, sir.

Q But you have used the projected figures in your

calculations as to how much water you need?


lnab hg& atabag SOCIAL COURT RnEPORWRS
263 PNULLAS COUNTY BUILDING
150 FIFT STyaT NORTH .
ST. PITaneseUR. FLORIoA 33701





151

1 A Yes, yes.

2 -Q And you have considered it?

3 A I considered it to the point that someone will

4 have to sell them that water.

5 Q It might as well be you?

6 A Possibly, yes.

7 Q What is the Pasco Water Authority?

8 A It's a corporation that has been established to

9 purchase water wholesale from Pinellas County, and resell

10 it to other people in the area.

11 Q Is it a governmental entity?

12 A A private company.

13 Q It is a private company?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Pasco Water Authority is not on the same par as

16 West Coast Regional Water Authority?

17 A No.

-18 Q Do you know anything about the contractual

19 arrangements the Pasco Water Authority has with its

20 customers?

21 A No.

22 Q You don't know about the 80 percent requirement,

23 that if they take any water from them, they have to buy

24 80 percent of their water from them?

25 A No.


Eiuass a Eiiastbag o ciu.u coubr Rgpuwrau *
203 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
150 FITH STrtET NORTH .
ST. PrTERSRUMl. FLORIDA 33701







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Authority

contract,

supply the


oKa a Ohab PICIAL COURT RaPORcCRS t
263 PINCLLAS COUNTY BUILDING
5O0 FirmH STREET NORm .
ST. PETERSOURG. FLORIDA 33701


You have never examined any of that?

No.

Have you had any overtures from Pasco Water

about renewing their contract, extending their

increasing the amount of water that you can

mf?


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A I haven't.

Q Are you aware of any conversations that have taken

place in connection with this since you arrived on the

scene with Pinellas County?

A No.

Q And you are saying that you are thinking at the

present time about 5 million gallons per day, 5 or 6 million

gallons per day?

A Yes. The last report I looked at, which was last

week some time, it was about 5 million gallons per day.

Q What rate are you charging them?

A I can't tell you that right now.

Q Is this rate the same rate that you are charging

the other or the governmental entities that you sell water

to within Pinellas County?

A No.

Q How does it differ?

A It's lower, by some amount.

Q You are supplying a private corporation with




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i a & awIVa OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINELLA COUNTY BUILDING
10O FIFTH STEaiT NORTH .
ST. PETERUiURG. FLORIDA 33701


water, 5 million gallons per day, at a rate or a cost

less than the amount you are supplying your regular customer

the municipalities within Pinellas County?

A At a rate.

Q At a rate?

A At a rate lower, not a cost.

Q At-a rate lower?

A Yes.

Q A cost per thousand gallons lower?

A Right.

Q Who is your biggest customer?

A Clearwater and Pasco, about the same.,

Q You are supplying the City of Clearwater with

about the same amount of water as the Pasco Water Authority?

A Yes.

Q But charging the City of Clearwater more money?

A Yes.

Q Have you made any overtures for selling or

supplying any water to any other entities that you are not

currently supplying water to?

A Yes.

Q And who are those?

A City of Oldsmar.

Q City of Oldsmar. Any others?

A No.


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41 Q Where does the City of Oldspar get, their water

2. now?

3 A City of St. Petersburg.

4 Q Have you offered them a rate less than the rate

5 you are charging your other customers?

6 A Noo.

7 Q Have you offered them the same rate?

8 A No.

9 Q Have you offered them a higher rate?

10 A Yes.

11 Q So the City of Oldsmar is going to pay more than

12 your regular customers, and your regular customers pay

13 more than the Pasco Water Authority?

14 A Right.

15 Q Let me ask you how you projected your peak demands

16 in.your figures. What ratio do you use on calculating peaked,

17 compared to averages? Or do you use a ratio? Do you use

_18 other experience?

19 A Sir, I testified this morning, Mr. Blain, that

20 those figures came from the report prepared by Ross,

21 Saarinen, Bolton & Wilder, the consulting engineers for the

22 Authority.

23Q All right. Let me ask you, in the trade, what

24 basis would you use for determine peak demands, as

S25 compared to average?


KistZ4abIaU & KaICitabag OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
150 FIFTH STREET NORTH .
ST. PErERSBURG, FLORIDA 33701







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Ka & Kanb SOCIAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINMLLA* COUNTY BUILDING
150 FIFTH STaCrr Norrm .
ST. PrTErIrURO. FLORIDA 33701


155


A Operation records, if possible.

Q What if you don't have operating records? You

obviously don't have operation records for 1990, and you

have got some kind of a projection.

A Based on previous operations of average/peak, you

would project.

Q As you increase the number of customers, is your

peak demand ratio to average day reduced?

A If they're not -- no, if they're not -- if

they're the same type customer.

Q If they're the same type customer, they do not?

You have no averaging throughout your service area?

A I don't understand that.

Q As you get a larger system, serving a larger

area, you are telling me that your peak continues to

climb at the same rate as your average?

A It could go -- it could go down some.

Q How much?

A I have no figures, sir.

Q But you said that on your Exhibit Number 4, that

you merely added the figures from the Ross, Saarinen,

Bolton & Wilder report?

A Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Q You indicated, you interjected no judgment of

your own?




1 1ikh


.1 A That is correct, sir.

S2 Q Have you considered any other alternatives for

3 meeting these projected demands that your water system will

4 require?

5 A I don't understand, sir.

6 Q Are there any other alternatives available, or

7 that could be considered, other than going back and

8 increasing the Cross Bar Well Field permit?

9 A Other sources?

10 Q Other sources, other methods, other solutions.

11 A Other sources. Passing thought to them.

12 Q Passing thought only?

13 A Yes.

r 14 Q When is the first time that you anticipate having

15 a deficit in supply, if nothing happens?

16 A I don't understand, sir.

17 Q If nothing else happens other than just your

-18 present fields continue, all permits continue as they are,

19 when is the date that you would have the first deficit in

Supply?

21 A April of this year.

22 Q April of this year?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q And where would I find that on one of these two

25 exhibits?


oauabag & Kaa&bag, OFFiCIAL COUNTY REPORTS
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDIN
10O FIFTH STREET NORTH
ST. PETERSURG. FLORIDA 33701





157

I A You'd have to, you'd have to subtract the Cross

2 Bar Water out, because it will not be available in April

3 of this year, maybe.

4 Q Oh, that's not because of the limitation on the

5 permit, not because of any limitation on water crop, but

6 rather it is a limitation in that the pipe has not yet

7 been completed?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay. How much water do you anticipate getting

10 from Cross Bar when it is operational, the full 20 million

11 gallons?

12 A The average, 15.

13 Q Average of 15 and a max of 20?

14 A Yes.

15 Q As soon as the Cross Bar pipeline is completed,

16 assuming that that's not a limiting factor, then when will

17 be the next time that you will face any kind of projected

-18 deficit?

19 A From my Exhibit 4, I project in 1984. But I

20 stated this morning that in 1982, with just a cushion of

21 1.29, that is operating on a thread line. From the

22 purpose of my exhibits, it indicates '82 to '84. But from

23 practicality, it could be sooner.

24 Q In '82, you actually have a surplus of 13 million

Q 25 gallons per day average, but it is the max day that you are


IaYOFg F tICIAti COURT REPORTERS
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
SO FIFTH STREET NORH .
ST. PETERS.URG. FLORIDA 33701


4. [ I1, Ull




158

1 concerned with?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Max days can be handled, peak days can be handled

4 in another way, can't they?

5- A I dbnn't know, sir.

6 Q Well, now, you've been in the water business a

7 long time, and you've been qualified as an expert on

8 utilities and water m~nnagpent. What a~out storage?

9 A That's for peak hours, sir.

10 Q Peak hours, and not peak days?

11 A Not peak days. Peak hours, sir.

12 Q How many hours?

13 A Oh, eight to ten hours.

S14 Q And that's all?

15 A Yes.

16 Q What is your storage capacity in Pinellas Water

17 System at the present time?

-18 A About 41 million 4.

19 Q 41 million. And you are concerned with a max

20 day deficiency spread over a max day, now -- not in an hour

21 -- of 1.29 million. You're the engineer. If you increased

22 your storage capacity in order to take care of a deficit or

23 an anticipated deficit for a max day of 4 million gallons,

'4 how much would you be increasing your storage capacity?

O 25 A I don't understand your question, sir.


Ima1h1g 10& NaIMHabg oMCALCOURRPOTRS '
283 PINWLLAS COUNTY BUILDING
1S0 FIHrr Smler NOWH .
ST. Prrrae URG,. FLORIDA 33701







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OFaICIAL COURT REPORTERS
S63 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILOIN
i0S FrITH STlTr NORTH .
ST. PETERSaIBU. FLORIDA 33701


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Q You have read your report from your consultants,

have you not?

A Yes, sir.

Q You didn't see anything in that report that

suggested that one alternative would be increased storage

capacity?

A If I recall, that was at Cypress Creek, where

the storage would be increased, .and not in the Pinellas

County Water System.

Q But do you not get your water from Cross Bar,

through West Coast Regional pipelines going through Cypress

Creed, through West Coast Regional pipelines going to your

pipelines?

A That's right, sir.

Q So that the storage anywhere in the system would

benefit you, would it not?

A Only if I, only if I can replenish that storage.

If that peak occurs two or three days at a time, that

storage has to be replenished, if it is going to be

sufficient.

Q You are telling me that the storage really makes

no sense?

A No, sir.

Q You're not telling me that? Or you are telling

me that?


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IaaOICIAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILoING
150 FIFrT STREET NORTH
ST. PIITRSSuRG. FLORIDA 33701


160


A I'm not telling you that.

Q Okay. What are you telling me?

A That storage is a tool to handle peak hourly

conditions, usually in-a distribution system.

Q What causes the greatest demand for your peak

days?

A Irrigation.

Q Lawn sprinkling, is that right?

A Sprinkling, yes. Irrigation.

Q When you start having difficulty on reaching

your maximums, and you make a public announcement about

approaching a deficit, how quickly does it take 'for the

public to respond?

A It varies.

Q Varies from what to what?

A It varies from a mandatory program to a

voluntary program.

Q I am talking about you just making the announcemer

It goes out on television, out on radio. How long before

you start experiencing some cutback in your system?

A Maybe the next two or three days.

Q Two or three days?

A Yes. Next day, two or three days.

Q When was the last time you made such an

announcement?


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can't answer that, sir.


Wanabat & Na ay OFFICiML CWRT RePOR S
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILOING
I1O FILTH STRlET NORTH
ST. PETIrnsIUR. FLORIDA 33701


161


A I was not at Pinellas County.

SQ Have you ever made such an announcement?

A Not since I've been in Pinellas County.

Q So you really don't know what kind of response

time you have in Pinellas County?

A That's right.

Q Have you ever talked to Mr. Talley about that?

A No.

Q Or to anyone else over there about that?

A No.

Q The fact that they've got a response time of

some six to seven hours?

A No.

Q You're not concerned about what's happened in

the past?

A Oh, yes, I'm very concerned.

Q Let me ask ybu this. Are you familiar with

financing, the funding for Cross Bar?

A Yes.

Q Now, that has been built on a bond issue?

A Yes.

Q Has the debt service started? Are you making

payments on that now?

A That's an Authority bond issue. I'm not -- I


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Q You're not familiar with what demands will be

made as far as making the .payments on that bond issue?

A No, sir.

Q Are you familiar with the agreement between

Pinellas County Water System or Pinellas County and West

Coast Regional Water Supply Authority? ,

A I have read it and studied it, sir.

Q In connection with the .Ctoss Bar use?

A Yes.

Q What are the principal provisions in there

relating to permits, to obtaining permits?

A The Authority will obtain the permit with the

Pinellas County Water System being a co-applicant, with

Pinellas County being a co-applicant.

Q When will they obtain the permit?

A It was within a specified time, but -- it was a

specified time for an application, and I don't recall the

date.


How large a permit?

I believe the application was for 30/45.

30/45?

Yes, sir.

That's the terms of the contract?

Yes, sir.

Do you know when the red line is on that?


imdabaa & aab OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUnLPtNG
0SO FirTH STl9RT NORTH
ST. PrTlrtSUNG. FLORIDA 3S701


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AB- 3.t+.r.-Z- don-'t-rmeal3. it. -r-

~yMiL your projection. on- exhibit 'ubber 4 on your

.avi~ e and& pa.k, you stated that your average was 45 millic

gallons currently for 1984, but you show 54-here. =Now, I

weiUd asaum.-that difference is made-up; byasupplying the

Pasco Water Authority? --

A so, sir. - ..

Q What is it? -

A I testified this morning, Mr. Blain, that at

this present time, right now, in this time phase, that our

average days was 45. When we get.into the extremely dry

periods, which has to be considered for the whole year,

then that maximum usage period which we are not in every

time, this should create an average of 54 million gallons,

sir.

Q What was your average last year?

A Fifty-one some-odd million.

Q It wasn't 53.1?

A The records that I recall, that I recently put

together, it was 51.point something, was the average.

Q Your reports that you submit actually include

the amount of water that you resell to Pasco Water

Authority, is that not correct?

A Submit to who, sir?

Q That you submit to Southwest Florida Water


aimrbag UanCOT REPORTERS
26.3 PINELLAS COUNTY r UILDtO
1O5 FIFTH STmrT NORTH
ST. P.TrrrSURO. FLORIDA 33701




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Management District.

A It shows, it shows our pumping per well.

Q All right. And the figures that you are talking

about, the 51 is used only in your system, and not on that

that you resell, that you ship back up north?

A No, sir, it includes everything.

Q It includes everything?

A Yes, sir.

Q But you are telling me that 53.1 million is

incorrect?

A I said that the figure that I put together

recently was 51 something. If your records showed

different, I am not familiar with your record, sir.

Q Do you have any of your records with you?

A No, sir.

Q Have you got any of them on the way over here?

A No, sir.

Q To be delivered today?

A No, sir. On the way?

Q Yes.

A No, sir.

Q Explain to me now, in your Exhibit Number 4,

what this represents. The average, does that include all

of your customers, your individual customers, as well as

all the municipalities that you sell to, and also the Pasco


a OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
50O FIFTH STREET NORTH
ST. ParTanauRG. FLORIDA 33701


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Water-Authority, which is a-private corporation?

A Yes, sir.

Q How much of that 54.3 million is Pasco Water

Authority?

A I couldn't give, I can't give you that without

referring to the report I took this from, sir.

Q And do you have that report with you?

A I think I have it over there.

Q Would you like to get that?

Mr. Finney, when you find the page, if you will

tell me, so I can stick with you --

A Page 4-4 is one of them, sir.

Q 4-4?

A Yes, sir.

Q Is 4-6 the other one?

A I hope that is. That's it, yes, sir.

Q When you show a projection, going from 54 million

gallons to 79, 80 million gallons, over the next ten years,

how much of that 26 million gallons, used by the Pinellas

County Water System, will be used by it within Pinellas

County, and how much of it will be supplied to the Pasco

Water Authority?

A From these tables, which are not my projections,

it shows that in 1990, 65.16 million gallons will be used

in the Pinellas County Water System, and 14.5 in the Pasco


KUiuI Kattalg OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
150 FIFTH STREET NORTH
ST. PETERSBURG. FLORIDA 33701




166


1 Authority.

S2 Q Now, have you done anything since you have been

Sw3 with Pinellas County to encourage any kind of use of your

4 treated sewage effluent or recycling of any of the water

5 that you have going through this system?

6 A No, no.

SQ Are you familiar with the efforts that the City

8 of St. Petersburg has made?

9 A To some extent.

10 Q Are you familiar with the success that they've

11 had in reducing their increased demand for potable water?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q You haven't studied that at all?

14 A No, sir.

15 Q But you don't contemplate anything of that nature

16 for Pinellas County?

17 A I didn't say that, sir.

18 Q Do you contemplate anything for Pinellas County

19 along those lines?

20 A We have no plans at this point.

21 Q All right. Are you working on anything?

22 A We have no plans at this time.

23 Q Are you working on any?

24 A I am not working on anything.

25 Q Are you aware of anyone else who is working on


KIIhI & gl tgtnb g OFFICrIAL COURT uPOmRRS
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
150 FIFTH STREET NORTH
ST. PrTEROsURO. FLORIDA 33701




167

1 anything?

2 A No.

3 Q All right. Now, in these projections, looking at

4 page 4-6 of the material that you are looking at, this would

5 anticipate renegotiating the contract with Pasco Water

6 Authority in the next three years, is that correct?

7 A Mr. Blain, I testified before that someone will

8 have to furnish them the water, and that I had -- we had

9 not talked to them about renegotiating the contract, but

10 that I had included them in there because someone would

11 have to furnish them the water.

12 Q But your contract only provides for ypu supplying

13 up to 10 million gallons of that, projected to 1995.

S14 A That's what I testified before, yes, sir.

15 Q What's the necessity for modifying the Cross Bar

16 permit at the present time, when the existing permit is not

17 yet being used, and when your projections for deficit are

18 still some four years off, minimum?

19 A Mr. Blain, when I testified this morning that you

20 have to plan ahead for water system, that you have to know

21 in advance what you are going to have to plan for it, if

22 you don't have that committed, then you have to look at

23 other ways.

24 Mr. Blain, I also testified this morning that my

S25 projection did not include possible water which would be


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sold by other people from the Authority, but only that water

which would be sold by Pifnelas County.

Q Now, Pinellas County has a contract to sell up to

10 million gallons, but you included a much larger

projection than that, because you say somebody's got to

supply more.

A Is that a question?

Q Do you agree with that statement?

A I don't think I can answer it.

Q You don't know whether you agree or not?

A I don't know what the question is.

Q You have testified that -- on several occasions

you have testified that it's necessary to plan ahead.

A That's right.

Q Fifteen to 20 years in advance.

A Right.

Q All right. What planning ahead are you doing on

curtailing the waste of water in Pinellas County, and in

being able to utilize and re-use water that might be

available, similar to the manner in which the City of St.

Petersburg is doing?

MR. ALLEN: I object. There's been no testimony

that there is a waste of water in Pinellas County.

BY MR. BLAIN:

Q Where does all the water go. that is treated in




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a3hag 141q&, Iiahag OFIoA^Lcowr mrows
at3 PIVM&LAS COUNTY BUsI.oNG
tO RFtPT StMFrT NOWMr
St. PImamSGe. FLO.oIDA 33701


PineLlas County?
A My experience is limited to water, and 1- ae not

faiiliar with the disposal of sewage by Pinellas County..

Q You don't know anything about the disposal -sf

sewage in Pinellas County?

A Limited.

Q How limited?

A Limited to what I've just told you.

Q But you don't know anything about it?

A Only that they have sewage treatment plants that

collect sewage, and they have sewage treatment plants.

Q All right. And are these secondary orxtertiary

treatment plants?

A I'm not too sure that I can answer that, sir.

Q Are you familiar with the plans for disposing of

this waste by deep well injection in a number of locations

in Pinellas County?

A I'm not qualified to talk on that, sir.

Q Mr. Finney, do you have a copy of the East Lake

Road Well Field permit with you?

A In the bag there, sir.

Q Are you generally familiar with the permit?

A I have read it, sir.

Q If I had you a permit, a copy of a permit, could

you recognize whether that was the permit you were talking




170


1 about or not?

2. A Yes, it appears to be.

3 Q And can you show me on there how that permit

4 limits Pinellas County's withdrawal from East Lake Road,

5 based on water crop, as you testified to earlier today?

6 A I said that -- I testified this morning, too,

7 that Pinellas County had to aattest that they had this

8 property under control, and Pinellas County attesting is

9 at the very bottom of this, that they attest that the crop

10 is under their control.

11 Q And what property is that? You mean the property,

12 the property that they have their well fields on. is under

13 their control?

S14 A The property, yes.

15 Q And is that a limitation imposed on Pinellas

16 County by the water crop?

17 A My testimony was reference to the attesting to

18 this particular here as being part of the water crop.

19 Q I misunderstood you to say that the permit that

20 Pinellas County was being regulated under, the water crop,

21 it was being applied to Pinellas County for East Lake Road

22 MR. ALLEN: If the Hearing Officer please, I

23 object to that. To begin with, if Mr. Blain wants to

24 introduce that, or have you consider it, it speaks

25 for itself. It shows the number of acres that they


luttt~atg & Ksfabat OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
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1 required us to attest to, and it shows the amount of

2 limitation of withdrawal, and that is the water crop

3 theory. So let's not make any mistake about it. The

4 attestation is there, as required by that particular

5 Rule or the rules of the District. SolI think the

6 permit can speak for itself on that particular issue.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think the objection is

8 well taken.

9 MR. BLAIN: I'm not sure that I understood what

10 the objection was to. To the question? Or to his

11 looking at the permit?

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, I think yQu are

13 asking him to draw certain legal conclusions from the

14 permit. If you want the permit in evidence, there's

15 another time for that.

16 BY MR. BLAIN:

17 Q How much more water, Mr. Finney, could you take

-18 from the East Lake Road Well Field if the water crop were

19 not being applied to it?

20 A I can't give you volume, sir.

21 Q How much can you take with it being applied to

22. it, if it is, in fact, being applied to it?

23 A About -- if I recall, there's fifty-eight hundred

24 acres under lease, some odd, so that would be about what? -

25 fifty-eight hundred -- about 5 million, 5.8 million gallons


IAuMnaiJ L OF c bIAL COURT REPORTERS
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150 FITH STREET NORTH
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a day.

SQ You are not suggesting that you've got the

Authority to take 5.8 million?

A Oh, no, no, no.

Q Then what's the limitation? Your Present

Permitted Capacity on the lists that you have compiled

shows 5 million gallons.

A Yes, sir.

Q And if the water crop were applied, you should be

able to take 5.8 million gallons, is that not correct?

A That's right, sir.

Q So the water crop isn't being applied is it?

There's some other limiting factor.

A I don't know which question you want me to answer.

Q Is there another limiting factor, other than the

water crop?

A Not at this time.

Q How does the water crop limit that permit?

A If we install more wells, we would be limited up

to the 5.8 million gallons.

Q By the face of that permit? By that permit, you'd

be limited?

A If the water crop was supplied, sir.

Q Do you know whether the conditions of that permit

are being complied with, insofar as it relates to the


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-1 i~nmi-.oing program?

S2 A believe they are, sir.

SQ Is that monitaring program indicating amy increase

4 -I l chlorides?

9 A I have not seen the latest results, sir.

O* Q So you dan't know? -,

A don't know.

8 Q What results would you have seen?

9 A I don't recall, sir.

10 Q Where does the water come from that's pumped from

11 .Eldridge-Wilde?

12 ~DE XEiARING OFFICER: I didn't hear the question.

13 MR. BLAIN: That's pumped from Eldridge-Wilde.

"'14 BY THE WITNESS:

15 A From the well.

16 BY MR. BLAIN:

17 Q From wells located on whose property?

_18 A The property leased by Pinellas County.

19 Q How large is the area?

20 A If I remember, about nineteen hundred plus acres.

21 Q And what's the permitted capacity of Eldridge-

22 Wilde?

'23 A 35/55. 35 average, 55 max.

24 Q 55 million gallons?

S25 A 35 million a day average, 55 million a day peak.


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Q Max?

A Max.

Q Mr. Finney, you have given testimony relating to

your knoweldge of hydrology. Do you profess to be a

specialist in hydrology?

A No.

Q Do you feel competent to give an opinion as to

where ground water comes from, or anything from, anything

about ground water movement?

A Based on previous experience.

Q What previous experience?

A Taking well drilling rigs out into the field,

drilling wells, having geologists interpret what is given,

reading the -- I have understanding, but I do not practice

hydrology.

Q You have a general conceptual --

A I have a general conception. I can talk the


language, but I cannot practice hydrology.

Q Then you couldn't really describe where the water

or the actual drops of water come from that are pumped from

the Eldridge-Wilde Well Field?

A I wouldn't attempt to, sir.

Q They're withdrawn -- are they drawn from a large

area or a very small area?

A I will not attempt to answer, sir.


OFCa ba IAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINELLAS COUNTY SUILOINa
ISO FIFTH STREET NORTH
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Q You don't know?

SA No.

Q And do you know, as far as the Cypress Creek

area, whether this is coming out of the creek or coming out

of--

A I'm not a hydrologist, sir.

Q So you do not know?

A I do not know.

Q What about the Cross Bar?

A I do not know.

Q What are the uses the Cross Bar property is put

to, other than construction of well fields?

A Part of it is under lease for cattle grazing, and

part of it is in orange groves, or citrus. I shouldn't say

oranges. Citrus.

Q And was this property producing agricultural

operations when Pinellas County purchased it several years

ago?

A I was not there when they purchased it. I cannot

talk to that.

Q All right. Now, are these mature groves on the

Cross Bar property?

A Yes.

Q And this improved pasture, has that been there?

That is not new pasture that has just been established, is


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1SO FIFTH STREET NORTH
ST. PEITRS8URG. FLORIDA 33701


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1 it?

2 A I couldn't answer the length of time.

3 Q Do you know where the water comes from for East

4 Lake Road Well Field?

5 A I'm not a hydrologist, sir.

SQ Well, how can you swear that the pumping could

7 be increased safely?

8 A My understanding, sir, is that water moves from

9 an easterly to a westerly direction -- and this is general

0 understanding of it -- if the water is moving from an

11 easterly to a westerly direction, you would think that

12 some of that water that is passing through the limestone

13 could be intercepted, and additional amounts could be taken

r 14 out in the East Lake Well Field.

15 Q To keep it from escaping?

16 A Escaping into the Gulf.

17 Q But you have no idea how much more?

18 A No idea, sir.

19 Q But you are convinced that you could take more?

20 A I believe so, yes, sir.

21 Q And are you saying you could take more than the

22 permitted quantity? That you could take more than the

23 actual quantity being taken, or that you could take more

24 than a thousand, gallons per acre per day?

25 A I am of the opinion that proper testing would


ItaniJJ & Sanaba OgPIClAL COURT REPORTERS
203 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
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177

1 indicate that more than 365,000 gallons per acre per year

C 2 would come -- that the test would prove that more water

3 would come from the East Lake Well Field.

4 Q But you don't have the permitted capacity to take

5 that, do you?

6 A It is my opinion that it could be taken with

7 proper studies.

8 Q Who operates the East Lake Well Field?

9 A The Pinellas County Water System.

10 Q Have you considered applying for modification to

11 allow you to withdraw a larger quantity than you are

12 currently permitted at East Lake Road?

13 A General discussion only.

14 Q Meaning yes or no?

15 A No conclusions.

16 Q But it is your opinion that you could take more

17 water out of there?

18 A It is my opinion that studies would indicate

19 that more water could be taken from the East Lake Well

20 Field.

21 Q How long has that well field been in existence?

22 A From memory, '73 to '75.

23 Q Has there ever been a year that you have taken

24 over 2.3 million gallons average per day from that well

25 field? Even though you were permitted to take up to


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178


1 3 million gallons?

2 A I have not been here a year yet, so I--

3 Q Have you ever used those records, the withdrawal

4 records?

5 A I am continually playing catch-up all the way,

6 while continuing to have things going forward all the time.

7 Q Are you familiar with the fact that there was

8 an eight-month period in the latter part of 1978 and the

9 early part of 1979 that no water was withdrawn from the East

10 Lake Road Well Field at all?

11 A Mr. Blain, I don't have the records you have in

12 front of you, and I'm not familiar with that.

13 Q But you would observe that you've got a well field

14 that wasn't even used for a long period of time, would you

15 not?

16 A I observe the East Lake Well Field is used when

17 we get into peaking conditions.

18 Q Do you know what it is capable of producing on

19 any max day?

20 A I believe it sets-forth 5 million gallons

21 withdrawal.

22 Q Do you know what's the most that you have ever

23 taken out of that well field on a peak day?

24 A No, sir.

; 25 Q That doesn't figure into your calculations on


ECabaf & SnJba OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERSo
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
150 FIFTH STREET NORTH
ST. PETERSBURG. FLORIDA 33701
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179


1 trying to arrive at some way to offset your deficit on a

2 max day when it occurs in 1984?

3 A Would you tell me what exhibit you are referring

4 to, sir, on that question?

5 Q In your Exhibit Number 4, you show a deficit in

6 1984 on a max day. You testified that you would be getting

7 concerned in 1982, because you don't have very much

8 reserve in your max day.

9 A Mr. Blain -

10 Q What I am asking you is, if you have not studied

11 the East Lake Road Well Field to see how much of a peaking

12 facility that could be, to offset part of these .anticipated

13 deficits some three, four, five years from now --

14 A We have taken into consideration East Lake Well

15 Field as it is presently permitted in Exhibit 4, sir.

16 Q You don't think you could take any more than that

17 5? Or do you? You are anticipating that none of the --

_18 are you anticipating any increases in any of these permits,

19 other than the Cross Bar permit?

20 A Not at this particular moment.

21 Q Do you anticipate proceeding with getting other

22 modifications during the next 12-month period?

23 A Not at this particular moment.

24 Q Are you familiar with the Cypress Creek permit?

S25 A Yes.


utmbag K Eatg OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
ISO FIFTH STREET NORTH
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180


1 Q Are you familiar with the fact that the average

S2 day and a max day are the same number?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Have you considered acquiring additional peaking

5 capability at Cypress Creek by changing that?

6 MR. ALLEN: Madam Hearing Officer, I have tried

7 to be liberal in Mr. Blain's inquiry. We will have

8 hydrologists who will speak and answer all of Mr.

9 Blain's questions, which he seems to know already.

10 But Mr. Finney has not been offered for all of those

11 types of inquiries which we have been listening to for

12 the last twenty or twenty-five minutes, and unless we

13 can understand what some relevancy is to that

S14 particular item, I object to it. Mr. Finney can't

15 testify as to the whole case, just what he has

16 testified to.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: I feel like you're being

o18 a little repetitive, Mr. Blain.

19 MR. BLAIN: Well, I beg the Hearing Officer's

20 indulgence. I will'attempt to limit that. But Pinella

21 County has stated in their petition that the

22 modification requested is the only reasonable method

23 for the Petitioner to meet the consumptive water use

24 needs of the population beginning in 1980.

25 Mr. Finney has been qualified as an expert


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181

1 for water management purposes, and he has prepared

2 Pinellas County Water System water requirements, which

3 appears on Exhibit 4, and it seems appropriate to

4 question him as to why that was the only solution,

5 and why other solutions should not also be considered.

6 He obviously has had experience with a good many

7 different systems.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: I am not saying, Mr. Blain,

9 'that your questions are improper. I just feel you

10 have been repetitive in some of them.

11 MR. ALLEN: May I also speak to that? If we are

12 going to have testimony here as to what in oir best

13 judgment, as a governmental entity, whether we can have

14 other sources of water, as opposed to having that as a

15 predicate for our standing in this matter, then I'll

16 be very happy to try that before you. But I want you

17 also to grant me the permit, if I can show you that,

-18 and I don't think that you have the power to do that.

19 So I think Mr. Blain is taking the side

20 issue here and beating that horse to death, and the

21 whole essence of this thing right now is that we have

a permit which we are co-applicant pending before

2the Water Management District, and we are subject to

24 that Rule.

( 25 And we can be here all day having Mr. Blain


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263 PINELLAS COUNTY BUILDING
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182
,.-.,a -t :* 3E2 .<,= -
J1 fe the evidence that he wants to pursue in his form

I Swiftaud when we come up for the permit, but I

-C -. ~V't t_think that's going to be adding to the question

Sjhat we are here to decide. .

.s .THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay, let's move on.

BY MNR. BLAIN:

-Q Mr. Finney, in addition to your current negotiation s

-4 with the City of Oldsmar, do you anticipate.in the immediateLy

9 foreseeable future negotiating with any other utility

10 system, private or public, to supply them water from and

1 through the Pinellas County Water System?

A Yes.

3 What other system?

-14 A City of Dunedin. ---e

15 Are you supplying them now, at the present time?

16 A No, sir.

17 O Are they included in your projected figures?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q Bow soon do you anticipate being in active

20 negotiation with the City of Dunedin?

21 A Year, year and a half, two years. .

Q2 Have you considered the posture of the Pasco

W3 Water Authority insofar as it relates to the current

24 condemnation action, where Pasco County is seeking to

(25 acquire ownership of the Pasco Water Authority?


naha abg ana 0MTAL OURTRr
263 PINwLLAS COUNTY BUILDING
I50 FIFTH STREET NORTH
Or. PremseuRG. FLOoIDn Z4701




1. .3


1 A Sir, I don't know that I know what you have

) 2 asked me.

3 Q Have you considered, in making your calculation,

4 have you given any consideration to the fact that the Pasco

5 Water Authority is currently the subject of a condemnation

6 action, wherein Pasco County is seeking to acquire title

7 to the Pasco Water Authority?

8 MR. ALLEN: I object to that as totally irrelevan

9 to these proceedings.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: What is the relevance?

11 MR. BLAIN: The relevance is that he has used

12 these projections up to 1990 of the Pasco Water

13 Authority, to be supplied from this system, when the

14 Pasco Water Authority is currently the subject of a

15 suit to condemn it by Pasco County, and has other

16 supplies of water that might well be supplying the

17 water from some other source.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right, I'll allow the

19 question.

0 BY THE WITNESS:

21 A No.

2BY MR. BLAIN:

3 Q You have not taken that into consideration?

24 A No.

25 Q If Pasco County is successful in acquiring the


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184

1 Pasco Water Authority, will it in any way change your

( 2 planning as far as your present and immediately future

3 demands on your system to supply the Pasco Water Authority?

4 Would you still anticipate supplying water to the Pasco

5 Water Authority if it is acquired by Pasco County?

6 A I think that would require a legal opinion that

7 I couldn't give.

8 Q Is the agreement between Pinellas County and

9 PaPasco Water Authority -- is there any minimum amount of

10 water that must be purchased by the Pasco Water Authority?

11 A I don't have that at my fingertips, sir.

12. Q On the rate that you are charging the Pasco

13 Water Authority, is that less than the water is actually

1 14 costing you from the West Coast Regional Water Supply

15 Authority?

16 A I am not sure what the formula is that puts

17 together the charges. It is all proportionate and everything

18 there, and I don't, I don't have that at my fingertips.

19 Q .Do you know what Pinellas County is paying West

20 Coast Regional Supply Authority for the water that it

21 receives from it?

A I heard the figure. I don't have it at my

2 fingertips at the present time.

24 Q On the present agreement with West Coast Regional

25 Water Supply Authority, where Pinellas County has leased its

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185

1 Cross Bar Well field to the West Coast Regional Water

2 Supply Authority, Pinellas County, I believe you testified

3 this morning, has priority to take all the water from Cross

4 Bar under the current permit, is this correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Do they have any obligation or commitment to

7 take it? Is it a take-or-pay agreement?

8 A Yes.

9 Q All right. How much of that is take-or-pay?

10 All of it?

11 A I don't have the contract, again, in front of me,

12. to read, to give to you. But there is an amountthat is

13 a take-and-pay, to a date, and I don't remember what that

14 amount is.

15 Q Do you also have a similar contract on the Cypress

.16 Creek Well Field?

17 A Yes.

18 Q So that Pinellas County must take and pay for
/
19 the -- must pay for the water, whether they take it or not?

20 A Yes.

21 Q So Pinellas County has two contracts with West

22 Coast Regional Water Supply Authority, from two separate

23 well fields, where they must pay for the water, whether they

24 use it or not?

25 A That's right, sir.


juanIM I & f& N g OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
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186


1 Q What kind of problem does that pose to you as a

2 manager of a water system?

3 A None at the present, sir.

4 Q None at present?

5 A No.

6 Q And what about any anticipated problems that you

7 mgiht have?

8 A None anticipated at present, sir.

9 Q All right. If you no longer had Pasco Water

10 Authority to sell water to, would you then have a problem

1 as far as your rates, and as far as making your payments?

12 A With that assumption, we would have to look at

13 all of these things.

14 Q Are you seeking other markets for water from the

15 Pinellas County Water System?

16 A I believe I previously testified that we are not

17 actively negotiating with anybody to furnish them addition

18 water. I think I previously stated that.

19 Q But you testified that you're in active

0 negotiations or some kind of negotiations with the City of

21 Oldsmar, and you have talked about you anticipate selling

22
to the City of Dunedin within the next year, year and a

half.

24
24 A And these are only anticipations.

25 All right. Are you seeking other customers for


Cang & Uanuml PIg CIAL COURT REPORTERS
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Your system?

A No.

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time.

MR. FIGURSKI: Madam Hearing Officer, if I may

have a brief questions.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Figurski.

MR. FIGURSKI: I think most of the other

attorneys in the room will pretty much have relied

on Mr. Blain, who has done a thorough job. But

there's just a few I'd like to ask.

I'd just like to note that I'm glad, for

my sake, that you cleared up that West Pasco is not

part of the Pinellas County Water System, because my

Commission would not have been too happy with me if

I'd let that stand on the record. But you cleared

that up, Mr. Blain.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. FIGURSKI:

Q Mr. Finney, you testified earlier that one of

the reasons-

MR. ALLEN: Madam Hearing Officer, you know, this

hearing is no place -- I haven't sat up and taken

pot shots. I move to strike Mr. Figurski's statement.

That wasn't a question. It wasn't opening statement


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I have no further questions at this




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or anything else. And I don't think it has an

appropriate place in these hearings.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm not sure what you're

referring to.

MR. FIGURSKI: I didn't mean to take a pot shot.

That was not my purpose. Mr. Finney earlier testified

that Pinellas County Water System included West

Pasco, and I just suggested that that cleared that up

in his testimony.

MR. ALLEN: That is not what he testified to.

The Hearing Officer asked him, when he was including

the uses and needs, whether when he was talking about

the Pinellas County Water System, whether he was

including those needs in the Pasco Water System.

There's no testimony in the record that the Pasco

Water System is a part, per se, by ownership, of the

Pinellas County Water System.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I think that's cleared up.

Let's move forward.

MR. FIGURSKI: Thank you.

BY MR. FIGURSKI:

Q. Mr. Finney, you testified earlier one of the

reasons for all of us being here today was that Pasco

County raised the Water Crop Rule in its motion to intervene

in the Cross Bar consumptive use permit modification





189

1 application, is that true?

2 A Yes.

Q Do you know, Mr. Finney, whether in the original

4 permit application for the 15/20, when the 15/20 was

.5 granted to West Coast and Pinellas County, that same issue

6 was also raised?

7 A I was not in Pinellas County at that time.

8 Q All right. In terms of Exhibit 4 and the water

requirements, you testified that by. 1990, western Pasco

10 County .would need approximately 14.6 mgd. Is that true?

11 A Yes

12 Q Okay. Are you aware, Mr. Finney, of consumptiv

13 use permit that was granted to New Port Richey and Pasco

e 14
4 County for the Starkey Well Field in Pasco County?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Do you know what the average and peak in that

17 permit is? Is it 8/13?

18 A I thought it was -- I thought it was something/15.
19
I don't know what.

20
Q Whatever the amount, was that taken -- was that
21
amount, that figure of an average and peak for the Starkey

22
Well Field taken into consideration in your projections on

Exhibit 4 for the water requirement for western Pasco

24
County?

S25 A No.


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I Q Are you aware, Mr. Finney, of a recent CUP

2 permit that was granted to Pasco County, other than the

3 Pasco County Water System, just last month, for a well in

4 what is known as Green Park Subdivision in Western Pasco

5 County?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Do you know what amount of water, average and

8 peak, was permitted by that consumptive use permit?

9 A No.

10 Whatever it was, is it taken into consideration

11 in Exhibit 6 in terms of projected water requirement?

12 A No. ;

13 Q Are you aware of a consumptive use permit

14 application on Swiftmud's agenda during the month of

15 February for another consumptive use permit in Deer Park

16 for a single well?

17 A No.

18 Q You are not aware that Pinellas County has

19 intervened in that proceeding for a second well?

20 A Yes, I am, yes.

21 Q Okay. Whatever the amount that may or may not

22 be permitted, assuming it is permitted by Swiftmud, at its

23 February Board meeting, was that taken into consideration

24 in terms of your projected water requirement in Exhibit 4?

S 25 A No. .


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1 MR. FIGURSKI: I have no further questions.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Intervenors?

3 MR. WENDEL: Yes, ma'am.

4 CROSS-EXAMINATION

5 BY MR. WENDELL:

6 Q Mr. Finney, I believe you testified that. when you

7 reported to Pinellas County in July or August of 1979, that

8 there was a sprinkling ban in effect, is that correct?

9 A Correct.

10 Q And that you terminated that ban?

11 A Suggested it be terminated, recommended it be

12 terminated.

18 Q And was it terminated?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Why did you recommend or suggest that, please?

16 A We had a sufficient amount of water to meet the

17 peak demand.

18 Q You had a sufficient amount of water to meet the

19 peak demand. Well, isn't a ban of that nature a great way

20 to curb your peaking problems?

21 A It is a method used.

22
2Q A method used. Could you tell me another one?

23
A Reduced pressure;

24 Q Reduce the pressure. Would you also say that

0 perhaps the instruction of citizens, an educational program


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1 might be of benefit?

2 A Oh, yes.

3 Q To reduce consumption?

4 A Yes.

5 Q But isn't it a fact that if you do those things,

6 then, you are going to cut down on the amount of water you

7 sell? Just please respond to my question. Then you can

8 explain it.

9 A I am not explaining anything.

10 Q. Well, answer, then, yes or no. Isn't it a fact

11 that if you do those things, it will cut down on the

12 amount of water you sell?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And isn't that really why you said we will lift

15 the sprinkling ban?

16 A No.

17 MR. WENDEL: I have nothing further.

-18 CROSS-EXAMINATION

19 BY MR. SNOW:

20Q Would you tell us, please, in regard to your

21 Cross Bar Canal Water Field, you have indicated that they

22 are under lease with some cattle operations and some

23 citrus operations, is that correct?

24 A That's correct.

25 Q Could you- tell us what the income that is generated


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1 from those leases is?

2 MR. ALLEN: I object to that as totally

3 irrelevant to these proceedings.

4 MR. SNOW: The door was opened by the question

5 of the value of the land, and the fact that it would

6 be an additional cost to the utility users, being

7 set forth as a basis for establishing the rule of

8 being arbitrary. This just completes the aspect of

9 the ownership of land, to show that not only is there

10 a debt, but also an income unrelated to the operation

11 of the water, and it is a matter of being totally fair

12 in looking at it.

13 MR. ALLEN: Well, you are comparing apples and

14 oranges. If he wants to talk about millions of

15 dollars for acquiring land -- that's one thing -- to

16 a few thousand dollars, and we can get into the taxes

17 and all of that. That's the point of the thing.

S18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, I feel it is proper

19 Cross-examination.

20 Go ahead.

21 You may answer the question, if you know.

22 THE WITNESS: What was the question?

23 BY MR. SNOW:

24 Q Do you know what the income that is produced

25 from those leases on an annual basis is?


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1 A The cattle lease is approximately $46,000. The

2 grove lease depends on the pounds of solids that's in the

3 fruit, and I have not seen a payment since I've been in

4 Pinellas County, so I can't tell you what the pounds of

5 fruit is, but it's something that in '80 we'll get the

6 fruit that was sold in '78, or something like that. But

S. I have not seen what the fruit -- what we will get for the

8 fruit in '78.

9 Q Have you received any payments in the past under

10 this lease for the citrus operations?

11 A To my knowledge, not since I've been in Pinellas

12 County.

13 Q How many acres of that property is in citrus?

14
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: How many acres is what?

15 MR. SNOW: Of the Cross Bar Well Field site is in

16 citrus groves.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

18 BY THE WITNESS:

19
A I can't give you that figure, sir.

20
BY MR. SNOW:

21 Q Thus in the preparation of your various

statistical studies, showing the increase in costs
23
resulting from application of the Water Crop Rule, when
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you cite the acquisition cost, is that not an elusive or

S25 illusory cost, when also not looked at the revenue that is


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195

1 also generated from the ownership of that property?

2 A No.

3 Q Should you also take that into consideration,

4 then, in determining what the cost is to the user?

5 A I don't think I understand your question, sir.

6 Q Well, as I recollect, one, in your testimony

7 you cited that the cost of land was a factor in establishing

8 that the Water Crop Rule was arbitrary, because it was not

9 reasonable. When you evaluate the cost of land, should you

10 not also then -- not necessarily the gross cost, but the

11 net cost of that land, or if the land could be used so as

12 to generate revenue -- should that also not be considered

13 in being accurate with your calculations?

14 A If it could generate revenue.

15 Q Okay. And in the case of Cross Bar, it does

16 generate revenue.

17 A Because it's a high piece of land.

18 Q Has Pinellas County developed any well fields

19 within Pinellas County-in-the last ten or fifteen years?

2A Yes.

21 Q Which one is that?

2A East Lake Road Well Field is one. East Lake Road

23 Well Field.

24 O How long ago was that developed?

25 A I think I 'testified this morning, '73 to '75.


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Q Okay. And why are the applications for new well

fields outside the geographic boundary of Pinellas County,

and in particular in Pasco County?

A I believe that would require the opinion of a

hydrologist.

Q Would it be accurate to say that Pinellas County

would not support that low well well, because there's not

sufficient water within Pinellas County to provide the

gallons per day that you have testified that was needed?

MR. ALLEN: I will stipulate to that.

BY MR. SNOW:

Q And does this illustrate, then, that a situation

can exist where more water can be pumped out of an area

to such an effect that it will, in effect, dry that area

up?

MR. ALLEN: I object. That calls for a

hydrological conclusion. The witness has stated

that he's not capable of giving that opinion.

MR. SNOW: I am asking what has factually

happened in Pinellas County, has in fact happened in

Pinellas County. I will restate my question.

THE HEARING OFFICER: If you would, please.

Do you know if that is factual or not?

THE WITNESS: I cannot make an expression of

what has actually happened.




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MR. SNOW: That's all I have.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Any further Cross-examinatio

of Mr. Finney?

Do you have Redirect?

S MR. ALLEN: Yes.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. ALLEN:

Q Mr. Finney, how does the Pasco Water Authority

get its water? Physically get its water?

A Through a pipeline.

Q Can you come down on Exhibit 1 in evidence and

show the Hearing Officer how Pasco County Water'Authority

gets its water?

A Coming out of Eldridge-Wilde --

MR. FIGURSKI: Madam Hearing Officer, may we have

clarification on that? Because I think he used Pasco

County, as opposed to Pasco Water Authority, and I

think that is important. In his question, he used

Pasco County, as opposed to Pasco Water Authority,

Inc.

THE HEARING OFFICER: What was your question

directed to?

MR. ALLEN: Pasco Water Authority, Inc.

'We often refer to them as Pasco County, but they

don't believe 'those people live there. To us, it is




198

1 Pasco County. To them, we have to make a distinction

S2 between the north side and the south side.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: It might be helpful to me

4 if you would make the distinction.

5 MR. ALLEN: It is the Pasco Water Authority.

6 We're not serving Pasco County. And I really meant

7 to ask him about the Pasco Water Authority.

8 BY THE WITNESS:

9 A The Pinellas County Water System has had, for

10 some time, to my understanding from the reading of the

11 records, a 36-inch main that came out of the Eldridge-Wilde

12 over to the east, and down 19 to the south. When the Water

13 Authority was given water, there was a 30-inch main that

14 was tapped off that 36-inch main and carried up into Pasco

15 County, to the county limits of Pasco County.

16 Q Do you know why that was done? Just tell me why

17 it was done.

-18 A Yes, yes, because there was no water in Pasco

19 County.

20 Q That's right. Now, as far as this contract --

21 would you take your seat again, please.

22 As far as this contract is concerned that Mr.

23 Blain Cross-examined you on, with the Pasco Water Authority,

24 do you know how long that's to run?

25 A I believe it's thirty years.


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1 Q And can you tell me whether or not, whether they

S.2 use it or not, that the Pinellas County Water System is

3 under an obligation to at all times have up to 10 million

S gallons of water for their disposal?

5 A Yes.

6 Q It is?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Whether they use it or not?

9 A Right.

10 Q And can you also tell me whether or not in these

11 condemnation proceedings that you have, that they've talked

12 about, as far as Pasco County is concerned, thatthey have

13 also, as part of that condemnation proceeding, brought a

14 condemnation proceeding against the contract itself?

15 MR. FIGURSKI: Objection. It is my understanding

16 that he testified that he knew nothing about that

17 condemnation, other than he had not taken it into

18 consideration in projecting the water requirements

19 for western Pasco County.

20MR. ALLEN: The witness testified that he knew

21 that they had commenced condemnation proceedings, as

22 far as I recollect.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't recall precisely

24 what the question and answer was.

25 MR. ALLEN: Let me ask him that question, and then


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if he doesn't know, why --

BY MR. ALLEN:

Q Do you know whether or not condemnation proceeding

have been brought?

A Yes.

Q Okay. And are you generally familiar with those

condemnation proceedings?

A No.

Q Do you know anything about them?

A No.

Q Did you know whether or not part of the

condemnation proceedings seek to condemn the contract?

MR. BLAIN: He just answered that he knew

nothing about it.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained.

BY MR. ALLEN:

Q To your knowledge, are there any other physical

pipes connected to the Pasco Water Authority, Inc., in

which water can be supplied to this 14 some-odd million

gallons of water that are projected?

A No.

Q That's the only one?

A Yes.

\Q Do you know of any way short of putting in more

pipe and attaching -up another system whereby they could be


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201

1 supplied their future demands?

2 A No.

3 Q Now, they've asked you about future water contract.

4 Please go up to the map again. Let me ask you a couple of

5 questions about these particular entities. Would you show

6 the Hearing Officer on the map, first of all, where the

7 City of Dunedin is?

8 A (Indicating.)

9 Q Is that in Pinellas County?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Is that in Pinellas County's service area?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Where is the City of Oldsmar?

14 A Right about there.

15 Q Is that within Pinellas County?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Is that within the service area of Pinellas

_18 County?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Under Pinellas County's special act, are you

21 required to serve them if they request additional water

22 supplies?

23 A Yes.

24 Q If you did not supply the City of Dunedin their

25 additional water supplies, and the City of Oldsmar, is there


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any other viable entity that you know of that could

physically supply future water?

A No.


202


MR. ALLEN: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.


Thank you, Mr.


Finney.

MR. FINNEY: Thank you.

THE HEARING OFFICER: We'll take a recess.

(Whereupon a recess was had.)




THE HEARING OFFICER: All right.

MR. ALLEN: May we have this marked for

identification.

(Petitioner Pinellas County's Exhibit Number 7

marked for identification.)

MR. ALLEN: We call Curt Kiser.




S. CURT KISER,

a witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined

and testified as follows:

EXAMINATION

BY THE HEARING OFFICER:

Q Please state your name and address.

'A S. Curt Kiser, 14 Peterson Lane, Palm Harbor,

Florida, Pinellas County.


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1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

2 DIRECT EXAMINATION

3 BY MR. ALLEN:

4 Q Mr. Kiser, what is your occupation?

5 A I am an attorney in the City of Clearwater, and

6 a member of the State Legislature.

TQ And how long have you been a member of the

8 State Legislature?

9 A Since November, 1972.

10 Q And from what particular county or district?

11 A Northern District of Pinellas County.

Q And are you now a present member of the

13 Administrative Procedures Committee of the State

14 Legislature?

15 A Yes, sir. I'm the Chairman.

16
Q You are the present Chairman?

17
17A Yes, sir.

18 And can you tell me, sir, what is the purpose

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of the Administrative Procedures Committee?

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A It's a committee that was created to review

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proposed rules as to whether or not they have sufficient
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statutory authority, to.review whether or not they have
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been procedural, all-the steps have been taken to assure

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proper notice, fairness, et cetera, to the parties it
25 might affect. It is an over-sight review committee of


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.1 administrative rules.

.2 Q0 And can you tell me just very briefly, in a

3 thumbnail sketch, what the procedure is that your committee

4 follows in examining a particular rule?

5 A The Committee is composed of three Senators and

6 three House Members, and we meet approximately once a month.

7 At that time, the Committee staff brings to us in a formal

8 agenda those proposed rules, and in some cases, existing

9 rules that they have found some particular problem with.

10 They've either -- when the rules are being

11 proposed, they are sent to the Committee, and when they're

12 sent to the Committee they're reviewed, and if it appears

13 that they go beyond their statutory-authority, they are

14 brought to our attention, with a staff recommendation that

15 we do object to them.

16 In some instances, legislators will bring rules

17 to our attention. In some cases, attorneys, affected

18 parties, et cetera. So that there are a number of ways

19 that rules can be brought up.

20 And if the staff or a member of the Committee

21 feels that they've gone beyond their authority, we set them

2 for an agenda. We conduct a hearing. And if we feel

23 after hearing the presentations and hearing from the

24 parties, if we feel that the proposed rule goes beyond its

O 25 authority, the statutory authority implementing it, we ente

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1I an objection.

S2 And at which time, when the objection is entered,

3 the agency proposing the rule has a time limit in which they

4 must get back in touch with us, either telling us that they

5 are'going to drop the rule, amend the rule to meet our

6 objection, or that, well, they really are going to keep

7 the rule as it is, and_go on without us, at which time, if

8 they do that, we formalize our objection to the rule, and

9 it goes into the Administrative Weekly, setting out

10 exactly our reasons why we think, as a Committee, they

11 have gone beyond the statutory authority.

12 Q Let me call your attention to Section 16J-2.11(3)

13 of the Rules of the Southwest Florida Water Management

S14 District. Can you tell me whether or not your Committee

15 has, during the time that you were on it, and as now

16 Chairman and spokesman for the APA Committee, considered

17 this particular rule?

18 A Yes, I believe that rule was brought up in 1976,

19 and I believe initially it was an old rule, and then there

20 were amendments to the rule. I don't remember exactly

21 the procedures of the old rule versus the new rule coming

22 in. But the so-called Water Crop Rule was brought before

23 the Committee back in 1976, and the Committee entered an

24 objection to it.

O 25 Q Why was the Rule actually in substance brought


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before the Committee?

A The staff had recommended that the Rule went

beyond the Authority under Chapter 373 to promulgate such

a rule, and as a result had an objection to it.

SQ And can you tell me specifically why or what

were the reasons for the entry of the objection by the

Committee?

MR. BLAIN: Now, we would object to asking for

him to give the reasons. The records speak for

themselves. If the Administrative Procedures

Committee took action, then its minutes would indicate

what did, and it is improper on the basis ok

North Beach Yellow Cab Company versus Village of Bal

Harbour, 135 So.2d 4, and State ex rel Cordrey versus

Holter, 283 So.2d 139.

MR. ALLEN: It is improper to do what?

MR. BLAIN: Improper to ask a public official

was intended. This would be inadmissible, as

against the minutes.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you plan to introduce

the minutes?

MR.' ALLEN: I have them, but I still think they

require explanation. And since Mr. Kiser is the

Chairman of the Committee and was present at that

time, I don't think that the cases that he's referring


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Committee.

As a matter of fact, it seems to me that the

actions of the Committee and the explanations of the

particular action which was taken at that particular

time are intended to be brought before Hearing

Officers for their consideration.

THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't think the objection

is as to whether they can be brought before the

Hearing Officer, but Mr.-Blain is objecting to the

manner in which you are asking that they be brought

before the Hearing Officer. Mr. Blain is saying that

the minutes or the objections themselves are the best

evidence, and not this witness' interpretation of the

reasons.

MR. ALLEN: Well, I think that the evidence can

be presented in either form, and I don't believe that

his cases state that Representative Kiser, who was

there, and who voted on a unanimous committee, would

be prohibited from giving the explanation as Chairman

of the Committee. Now, if he was not the Chairman, and

did not speak for the Committee, I would think possibly

he might have a point, but --

THE HEARING OFFICER: Were you Chairman at that

point in time? 1976?


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1 THE WITNESS: No.

3 MR. ALLEN: But he is Chairman now. We have to

3 get the present current Chairman to testify as to what

4 the actions were, rather than somebody that no longer

5 possibly is even a member of the Committee at that

6 time. I don't see that that's a requirement. Now,

7 if he hadn't been a member of the Committee, also, I

8 think that might be also a factor to consider.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: The Committee minutes and

10 whatever reasons were published, if reasons were

11 published, I think would be the best evidence of what

12 action the Committee took.

13 MR. ALLEN: Okay. Well, we have those here in

S14 this exhibit that we have marked Pinellas County's

15 Exhibit Number 7.

16 BY MR. ALLEN:

17 Q Can you tell me whether you can identify these

18 exhibits, Mr. Kiser?

19 A Certainly appears to be the -- this rather

29 voluminous stack of materials that were given to us at the

21 time, this is certainly, to the best of my recollection --

2 yes, these are all the Joint Administrative Procedures

23 Committee minutes that reflect the actions and the votes

24 that were taken.

25 Q Now, I see Mr. Harold Webb's signature on here,


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209

1 and this is an original. Who is Mr. Webb?

2 A He is the Executive Director of our Committee.

3 He's our chief staff person for the Committee.

4 Q I want to ask you a question concerning the

5 records. I noted here on page 6 that someone has written

in pencil or pen, rather, in tkhe records which were

7 certified by Mr. Webb, as opposed to being typed, 16J-2.11().

8 Do you see that on page 6 of the records?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Can you confirm to me that that was, in fact, a

11 rule which was considered by the Committee at the date and

12 time indicated on those records?

13 A That is the Water Crop Rule Section, and --

14 MR. BLAIN: Madam Hearing Officer, we would

15 stipulate that 211(3) was one of the portions

16 of the rules of Southwest Florida Management District

17 that were considered by the Joint Administrative

18 Procedures Committee on February 9, 1976. We would

19 like to look at the exhibit, though, to see what other

20 part might have been certified.

21 Could we inquire of Mr. Kiser if it's the

22 practice of the Joint Administrative Procedures

23 Committee, as far as transcripts are concerned -- and

24 I've seen these transcripts. They always appear to

Q 25 have been done'somewhere in-house. I never had them


ii naba & Ewttabag SOCIAL COuT REPORTERS
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made available to me. I don't know whether they're

certified by a court reporter. I don't know whether

they're official transcripts. I don't know whether

they're just part of a staff report or what. And I

really don't -- I am not interested in challenging this

on a technical ground, as much as understanding where

they come from, and just what they mean.

THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge, notes

are taken at the meeting, plus on a cassette tape, and

then at the conclusion of the meeting, for example,

the major motions, the roll call votes and these sort

of things, those are all taken by notes, and then the

tape is then played back after the meeting, and they

take off of that, they fill in any of the major items

that were done, and the tapes remain with the

Committee and can be played back for reference to

major items that are entered on the record.

MR. BLAIN: Well, I note, for instance, on page 11

they attribute to Representative Kiser "inaudible" and

I have never seen you when you were inaudible.

Are you offering this?

MR. ALLEN: Yes, I am going to be, after I ask him

a few more questions.

BY MR. ALLEN:

Q Can you also confirm that these records indicate




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action by the Committee on February 9 of 1976, August

of 1976, and I think the other one was in May or June --

MR. BLAIN:- June 2.

BY MR. ALLEN:

Q June 2 of 1976?

A Yes, that was the time frame that all those

actions took place.

Q And do the records accurately reflect the

Committee's rejection of the Rule on each of the three

occasions?

A Yes, sir.

Q And so the findings and so forth --

MR. BLAIN: Now, we would object to that

question and answer. The records speak for themselves

as to what they represent.

MR. ALLEN: Well, I think we have to

authenticate them, is what I'm doing at this

particular point in time.

MR. BLAIN: You asked him whether these records

show objections all three times.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Pardon me?

MR. BLAIN: He asked whether these records showed

that they objected all three times.

THE HEARING OFFICER: No.

MR. BLAIN: These are records from three separate


11 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
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-SMS MA~N F OrFFIE I think he just asked if

they .ie@4ate_1y retfl@gt what transpired on these

thr d@tee, ~- believe that wau the question,

MR. ALLENs; think so. But I did --

MR. ILAIiN That is a question we have no

e ,je3tien Tt,

g SiEARING OFFICER; That is what I heard yeu


MR, ALLEN; Yes, 5 ma'am, I did also say to him,

"refleeting an objection to the Rule on each of the

three Oe@asions," was a part of my questions which I

think =

MR, BsAIN; To which we object.

TVE REARINQ OFIfCEtR I agree the rseords do

speak for themselves,

MR, ALLEIt New, so that we can save sometime,

what is the Hearing Qefficere ruling iacserning certain

matters high are stated but -explaijned in these

reerds? Because

THE HEARING QrFIR? For example.

HR. AUiIE W0ell1 tfr l oaxaplet there is mention

of the EXeeptiQn Rale 1an here, in part Qf the objection

en page 25 of the Rule, but it does not indicate one

way or the other what the objection is., And it's my

q OF WAL COURT REPORsM m

10Q Wi ft MTOWT NOUaM
CF> I#ucf~ijno, RPIYod aaTf0i


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213

1 position that, of course, if there is an ambiguity in

Ce 2 the record, or it does not speak to what happened, the

3 only way to do that is through the Chairman, and I

4 want to inquire where the action is not specifically

5 stated or clear in the records, as to what occurred,

6 and the reasons for it.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: There is no other written

8 document which would explain it?

9 MR. ALLEN: No, ma'am.

10 We asked for the entire record, did we not,

11 Mr. Kiser?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 MR. ALLEN: The entire record. And this is what

14 we got from the APA Committee. So we have to assume

15 that they were certifying that that's what it was that

16 we got.

17 MR. BLAIN: Perhaps we might, with a little

18 latitude, cut through this.

19 As I understand it, Mr. Kiser, the objectors

20 report is a report that is prepared by the staff in

21 advance of the meeting. This is then submitted to

2the Committee, either in advance or at the meeting,

23 and usually the Committee has that in front of it

24 when it takes any kind of action.

25 And the various things that are listed here


tawg & K.canbatg OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
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214


a -W the a ,~t. B et he eZrS* report vei lSd have been

uc aet roo&-t*. that -uld wvev ben m ade in advance

S4 ~-q-~pqh- t a-Aet:hLa. eo -t.e &a i ate rateive Prcadures

SQmitfee.. Thre a Iiate ts- .a. 1ite tehat also vauld

Slet tQhe aetiQneS takey by thet Cummitter itself and

Sk.r- a43m akl portiLQns transcripts and portions of

P I -Laas that awa h. e4a

t le B aese wo$jld bwt transcripts that

q* pjep^red by tW.he statee, as you expltaied tfst a

% e WIft^. asg< Qthe.a would be copies of Laws and

qqip9e4 Qt rites that were in. your packet, that were

ttvBita to ylzvx as pLirt Qt the staff war-k-up i-A adv-ance

aQ yt3r QCQnsridetringj them.

v zq that oat coarrect?

'TH WZTN`WSS:: Yes

R2, ZtAI:N. As to the o Qbiectors'" report or

hfectionrs, the lfecih e aions report would ha-e been

soame-thing that wasF dacrje by a staff member in acdvarrea

ao ttre Committee taking a.ctioi.. The record,, the

mriwrut.es would refLec-t what actiatn the committee



'TE WXTNZSS:: -, YMea, s, r..

BE M.R. ALLEN:
24,
Q Well, let me ask you, in particular- and r'II

L et Mr.. Blain object when he wants to -- but I am going

anaasq & Lahag ONT w-I. coIm
23S PWNELLAS COUNTY BUILDINe
tISO FrM SErIT NORTHu
r: PTcrrsnmoe. FlonoA -S370O




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215


through these rules. As far as the documents were concerned,

if you will note on page 25, there is reference to really

a subsection which permits the Board discretion in granting

an exception to the water crop theory under 16J-2.11(3).

Okay?

And I find nothing in any of the minutes or

anything as to the Committee's position in making its

objections to those particular rules on this question of

excpetion. Okay?

Now, assuming that that is the case, can you tell

me what the Committee's position was, if you recall, on the

question of this ability to grant an exception tb the water

crop theory?

MR. BLAIN: We would object to this until there

is some specific reference in the minutes to the

actions taken, and to show that there is not sufficient

explanation in the minutes under that circumstance,

then a public official might be allowed to testify,

to explain what's not set forth in the minutes.

MR. ALLEN: I see nothing in there, and if Mr.

Blain wants to point it out, then he can go from there.

THE HEARING OFFICER: He's stated that he-found

nothing in there concerning that.

MR. BLAIN: In which meeting?

THE HEARING OFFICER: Pardon me?


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216

1 MR. BLAIN: Which meeting?

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't know.

3 MR. ALLEN: It's one that was reflected on page

4 25, whichever one --

5 MR. BLAIN: Which meeting was that the subject

6 of? That would be a proper question for Mr. Kiser.

7 When did this come before the Committee?

8 MR. ALLEN: I don't have a copy of it.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Are you able to answer that

10 question?

11 THE WITNESS: At the present time, I cannot. I

12 cannot tell you from looking at the specific

13 objection whether it was the first meeting, the second

14 meeting or the third meeting that this specific

15 objection was in reference to.

16 BY MR. ALLEN:

17 Q Well, you have testified that the objection was

18 sustained against it on all three occasions.

19 A Yes.

20 Q I can find nothing in any of those minutes,

21 whether it was the first, second, or third -- which I think

22 is immaterial -- to indicate why an objection was made as

23 to the so-called discretion portion of the subsection of

24 the Rule that is mentioned. Okay?

25 So now, my question to you is, assuming that that


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is true, that there is nothing there, and whichever meeting

it was -- we know it was either one of three days -- can

you tell me why the Committee objected to the discretionary

portion of the Rule?

MR. BLAIN: We would object. I haven't heard that

there was an objection to Section (5), and I didn't

understand that that was being considered in these

proceedings.

MR. ALLEN: Well, it is relevant. It doesn't go

to the question of what you would ultimately find.

Mr. Blain has already told you in his opening

statement that this is a broad gamet of things, and

that therefore you've got to consider this Rule as a

whole, and that they really use it as a tool, and that

you can get an exception, so I say that is going to

be a viable issue in this case. I think we're

entitled to present to you for your weight and

consideration the Committee's feelings about that

particular exception.

MR. BLAIN: Mr. Allen, are you suggesting that

this is Subsection (5) of 373.019? Or that this is

Subsection (5) of' Rule 16J-2.11?

MR. ALLEN: I am saying that the Committee on

page 25, and its staff, refers to the question of

an exception, and that there is nothing in the records


KatuaIag Luanbagt OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
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218.


1 which indicates a position in the Committee, or whether,

6 2 in fact, it took a position as to that when it made

3 the objection to 16J-2 11(3). And so therefore I am

4 inquiring of Mr. Kiser as to what actually happened,

5 because we have no record of it.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Apgar.

7 MR. APGAR: Madam Hearing Officer, on behalf of

8 the West Coast Regional Water Supply Authority, I

9 would like to make the following comments on this

10 objection.

11 I think Mr. Kiser's testimony is very

12 important, and in fact may be crucial to these

13 proceedings. I believe that perhaps what has happened

S14 during the last several hours that we've beenhere

15 is that we've lost sight of the fact that this is an

16 administrative hearing.

17 There have been many technical objections,

-18 based on legal principles that judges decide on a

19 daily basis, which simply are not applicable to the

20 situation which is before you here today. Strict

21 rules of evidence are not applicable.

22 Mr. Kiser's mental processes, his knowledge

23 of what went into the proceedings which resulted in

24 these objections being lodged are important for your

' 25 consideration min this matter. I think that the


inabta & in b OFFICIAL COURY REPORTERS
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technical objections entered in here by Counsel for

the Intervenors and Counsel for the Swiftmud are

entirely inappropriate to this proceeding.

This is an administrative hearing. The

best evidence, fine. But this man was there. The

best evidence of whether yqu went on a bus is not the

bus ticket. The person testifies that they were there.

This gentleman was there. He was familiar with the

processes. I think it would be fundamentally unfair

to deny the Petitioners in this case the right to have

this evidence presented on the record for your

consideration.

I think Mr. Kiser's testimony is important.

West Coast intends to adopt his testimony as part of

its case in chief in these proceedings. And I think

at this point in time, I want.to lodge my objection

to that, and I think he should be allowed to testify

fully on these matters.

THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I have kind of lost

sight of the objection now. What is the objection

based on? First of all, what is the question, and wha

is the objection?

MR. ALLEN: I made inquiry of Mr. Kiser as to

whether or not -- I asked him to assume that those

records did not indicate what consideration the


ilbltS & KantuBaOg PPICAL COURT REPORTERS
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c1 ianittee gave -as to the fact that -terme sma a

IG possibility of an exception by Swiftmad. And I asked
3 him to indicate to the Hearing Officer if the

4 Committee had a position on that, and if so, what it
as.

6 ITE HEARING FFICER: Now, do yoa have an

7 objection?

8 MR. BLAIN: We would object to this, nmless it

9 was more specific as -to which meeting were referring

10 to.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: I realize it would be nice

12 to know that, but what difference does it meake?

13 MR. BLAIN: Well, there is a great deal of

r 14 difference, because there are transcripts of several

15 different meetings. Several different things occurred

16 during the intervening time. Mr. Kiser has explained

17 to you about new rule review, but not old rule

-18 review, which this was progressing under, and the

19 objection was made as set out in the agenda of the

20 meeting on February 9, 1976, to the Rule .in question,

21 2.11(3). There is no mention of 2.11(5).

22 Now, there is an objectors report that is

23 attached at the end of this, but is not specific

24 as to when it was before the Committee, whether it

25 was before them when they were considering the


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amendment to the proposed amendments to the Rule,

or whether it was before them.when they were originally

considering the Rule itself, and the portion on

- February 9, 1976.

I think Mr. Kiser probably can remember

that, can recall that. And perhaps a little narrative

explanation might even be easier than some of the

questions and some of the objections. We certainly

don't want to prevent Mr. Kiser from testifying.

He was not available to us through the

subpoena route, but we certainly have no objection

to having him here under oath -- it's kind of nice,

really -- and to allow him to explain this. But I

think that we do need to unscramble this sheaf of

papers, because they do not -- they're not put in

chronological order.

MR. ALLEN: You see, that was the reason why I

started out by asking him -- because in looking

through this thing, they've melded it together, and

there's no way that the Hearing Officer can just take

this thing now and say, well, now, these are very

nicely docketed, and that's the reason-I started going

into the questions that I did, and the ones that Mr.

Apgar wants me to ask in his objection, so that we

could clarify this thing. It is a piece of scrambled


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.A 1 s.: The documents are there, but unless he's

b2 le to testify for you --

% THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's start off by asking

S^ the witness if he recalls when that objection how

That objection was raised, and what action the

QCommittee took, and when they took that action.

STHE WITNESS: My best recollection was that the

$ so-called Water Crop Rule, I believe, came about

$ through the review of an old rule, that then, I

Believe, they were trying to make some changes to the

So4ld rule. And it's.a little fuzzy as to exactly all

Sthe different mechanisms that went into play.

But the so-called Water Crop Rule came

v before the Committee, and there are certain types of

objections that the Committee just repeatedly ends

up looking at all the time. One of the most obvious

is where the statutes will set out two, three, or

18"
four criteria. Agencies will come along and add to
19
whatever specific number of criteria there are in the

statutes. Most frequently they will come along.and

try to add to those lists.

2 We strike those down virtually every month
23
by saying, "We're sorry, the statutes'are very clear

here, there's three criteria, and once you meet those

25 three criteria, you are entitled to whatever it is you


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are seeking." -We felt in this case, by setting out

these additional criteria, they had attempted to add

to the statute.

BY MR. ALLEN:

Q What statute -- can you tell me what statute

that was adding to the criteria?

A I believe it was 373.223, as I recall, where it

sets out the reasonable beneficial use, not interfering

with property rights, and the public interest statement

that's in there.

And by coming along and adding additional criteria

that you are expanding upon the criteria that the

legislature had set out, and therefore, if you wanted to

expand upon that, your best route was to come back to the

legislature and seek legislation that would do that.

Secondly, we felt that the administrative rule

conflicted with the property rights statement under that

section of the statute, that it did interfere with the

property rights, and therefore was in conflict with the

statutory provision, and therefore objectionable.

Likewise, another large category of errors that

occur from agencies is where they will set out certain

criteria, and then say, "However, if you don't meet any

of these, other circumstances may dictate they will waive

this," or whatever, and we almost invariable strike that


2aa-m ag attba SOCIAL CouRT REPORTERS
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down and say, "You have got to put people on notice as to

exactly what the rules of the game are, and we're not

going to let you throw everybody into a catch-all, and you

decide on an arbitrary basis who gets-this and who gets

that.

And we felt like that exception provision was

one of those coming right down the pike, that it set up

some standard that would be very, very difficult to meet,

which invariable few people could meet, and therefore

everybody was going to be in the catch-all provision, which

meant they could grant them, willy-nilly, any way they

wanted, and we struck it down for that reason, also.

So that there were a number of objectionable

provisions right out of the box. Some of them were the

typical stereotype provision that we get in all administrat

rules, and as we issued those objections, they came back

trying to reword the language, because that's what all the

agencies attempt to do, and they may usually make a

decision right off, either to drop the rule, or they're

going to alter it, or go on about their business.

They came back on a second occasion and a third

occasion, attempting to modify the language, to correct

the deficiencies that we, as a committee, had set out.

Unfortunately, when it came back to the last time, they

could not get around the objections, they could not


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A No.

MR. BLAIN: Now, the minutes speak for themselves.

BY MR. ALLEN:

Q Do they?

A Yes.

Q Okay. Now, as far as -- I noticed somewhere in

the documents -- I guess we could look for it, if someone

wants to spend the time -- was there any conversation of

economics involved by the Committee, as far as the Water

Crop Rule was concerned?

A Yes. I believe, Mr. Allen, you or someone

representing Pinellas County did provide a survey-type

sheet showing some of the larger counties and cities in

the State, what their water needs are, and what acreage

would be required under the Water Crop Rule, and that


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overcome them. And -as a result, the objections stood to

the basic content of the Rule when we finally finished as

a Committee on these rules.

SQ And as to these other two times when they came

back with a change of language and things of that kind,

your recollection,was that that was also voted down?

A Yes.

Q And can you recollect whether or not there was

any dissenting vote from any member of the Committee in

regard to any of the three occasions?


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brought about some very startling comments from Committee

members prior to the vote of objection.

Q And what was ithe feeling of the Committee

concerning the economics that was raised by the Water

Crop Rule?

A Well, there was at least one person I recall --

may have been the Chairman-- at that time, made the

comment that there just isn't any way the cities could

afford to buy that kind of land to supply that kind of

water.

Q Now, can you also tell me whether or not there

was any attempt to go back and determine whether or not

in the legislative debates, or things of that kind, there

was any mention of the water crop theory and its viability

and consumptive use permits, when 373 was actually debated

inthe House and Senate, and considered?

A Well, Mr. Allen, I was not there when 373 was

initially passed. I was there in 1973, '74, et cetera,

when various amendments had been made to it. And likewise,

when the Rule was being discussed and talked about.

At the Committee, the purpose and intent of 373

was talked about quite a bit, and it was the general

consensus that there was no way that they wanted to tie,

nor was there any thought given to tying land ownership

to water rights.




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