Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00095707/00061
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Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
Physical Description: Archival
Language: English
Creator: Carter, Gwendolen M.
Copyright Date: 1985
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Bibliographic ID: UF00095707
Volume ID: VID00061
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
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johann Van 4jeyye r-ohannesberg, 1985 3- Ishmal uohammed is iikely to be the first Indian.judge note, i. Mohammed was arrested in

the seoond/wave of arrests).
Fatima rjiers banning order was set aside because it was sovague. Diddicott and aze&a Sherare
issued a combined judgment but the case was lost on appeal. Diddicot was reedy to stick his
neck out.
chap
'There is a capin the rranskei who has been in jail for three years. The law professors were
thrown out 6C the university and those tha are left -re afraid. it is not like that in
zoputhataswana. There is a minimum of corruption and it has a bill of nights. There is a
law con-~ission to examine laws in ligi.t of the Bill of Rights. When tliey wanted to put in a
saving clause to exempt the 'Internal Secrity Act, Mangopi said "No"--go f up the Internal
Securities Act. There was a bail problem where it could be refused by law and the Uourt
said that tne Bill of Rights proved for bail and struck down the law.
0
The new constitution A lost of rubbish, b) as south africa realized how big a change-
botha lost one-third of his support. It places the z&~r colored and Indians in a position
to blackmail the government into reform. Some say they are co-opted but DavidC-Urrry now has
entry to the inner circle. Raj banski said "we must not press too hard for reform but must
build confidences".

Eaj bandki and iendrikser made a mistake in accepting disassociation. ihe cabinet takes
a consensus decision. uabin@t members must conform or resign. 'eo prevent a public break
botha would have to com promise or drop contentious legislation. in case of a deadlock in
Parliament t:ere is a fire escape clause where the President decided theissue, but in the
cabinet, there was no fire escape chuse.

P.W. Botha announced that now it was all right to openly disagree "henceforth the principle
of joint responsibility will not apply and cabinet members after consultation can openly
disassociate themselves from the decision."

The press has a gentlemen's agreement wi th the government 1) to give them leeway with the
constitution and 2) to make no mention of the trouble in thb vaal iriahke. Big business and
the press are go ng to let goveri~ent try to make the constitution work.


Sparks isthe only white who went into the townships during the troubles.
Le spoke at the Annual Uonference of Lawyers for Human lig1h.
The young and the old are getting together, the Vaal was well organized.
Often the violence is black against black. People rxxi against establishment participators.
or blacks who have benefited at their expense.

After '76 the people appointed the Committee of ten. The vaal ..iigig Triangle shows that





de vyver-page 2
the government's legislation can be struck down by the peoples actions; through a general refusal
to participate.
Trying to transform the Community Council into Municipa Council has no legitimacy---they got only
a 37o poll.
Villhune-Minister of Cooperation and Development introduced a wuoto dill that would give the
University a quota. The university would still decide who to admit. Vits rejected the whole
idea of a quota. we will not do Villhume's dirty work. The legislation was drafted so that
the university would lose its government subsidies.
vits must limit student growth to 3Yo and even at that rate we will be fully occupied by 1998.
20% of the blacks are in the Law School.
Law will apply affirmative action since the blacks have a disadvantage so we are going to spread
the first degree over 4 years rather than the normal 3.
The depoliticized Divisional Councils would be mu4ti-racial--Whites, Coloreds, Indians, and a

separate one for the blacks. Municipal issues are politically sensitive in areas like lavatories
and swimming pools\wha+e no political areas-such as utilities, roads, etc.h The later will be
handled by the Sivisional Councils.
The Group Areas Act does not apply to lavatories.
The system does not lend itself to evolutionary process.


The 1983 Agriculture Act was in response to the squatters who had moved onto agricultural land,
pcran~dia~xxixaxgpassxSdlsa The act applies to good farmland acquired after 1980. 1) first
there was an expert assessment of the potential of the land 2) the land was surveyed so that the
areas would yield a profit of 2000 rand/annumx. 3) 3 categories were set up; 15% of the land
went to Agriculture CollLges, 10% to experienced black farmers, and 75/ on long term 6 Sear leases
to farmer applicants. During the 6 years they are under strict supervision, if they make it
then they are given the land outright, otherwise they are thrown out and someone else is given
a chance to try on the land.
Compare this with Transkei.
Swaziland has moved into the South African sphere--"We have paid our dues to the freedom movement."
The plan is to give them Quavanguma--which has a population larger than Swaziland's. Jerrimey
Thorpe was in Swaziland as an advisor on Kozi bay. The Swazis badly want Kozi Bay but it is
a unique ecological area and it wouldd be a crime to develop it. (The people who have been living
in the Kozi Bay area have a cultural pattern that protects and preserves the ecology, i.e. take
only 3 eggs from a turtle nest, take grass for baskets only after the plant has flowered, etc. )
The whole scheme is part of an apartheid plan and goes hand in hand with the ga hardhanded
clampdown on the ANC.

I will be going to the US in Sept-Nov. probably to George Washington University or maybe





De Vyver--page 3
to the American university. I would be interested and available to give some lectures.
The Harvard Lecture is to be published by the Harvard Uivil Liberties Association.


1979 article on Security Legislation. Not member of THE CHURCH. Potchestrum/
Try to fit ap&rtheidi into the Bible.
Irresponsible critique---the university council responded.
kGwen--this last is all muddled but he was telling us about the activity that took place
in the liberal student circles at Potts in '78. He was one of the major moving figures,
according to rohammed Dangor, and that was the cause for his departure from the university.)


Eddie Webster-Industrial Socialogist.---Johannesberg, 1985
Industrial sociology is concerned with labor and trade unions and not with techniques of
management.
We are celebrating 10 years of the labor bulletin---its quite a change, particularly since
1980. The trade unions are in the lead of the move to legal reform.
The Inditemen Sgi S the accused in theNovember stay away is due in Feb and we have been asked to
hold up publication of our studies until the trial is underway.
Regional based Vaal Triangle groups cooperated with organized labor.
In Oct. the Army moved into Jam Seboking. This was initially a small local stay away. From this
caman alliance between students, community, and labor. (note this)
In Oct. the Transvaal Stay Away committee was set up COSAS, Vaal Civic Associations,Helease
Mandela Committee, FOSALTUD CUSA, 36 organizations under a 4 man executive committee.
Mosse Naeykso---.etAl Allied workers Union
Tommy Kali----EC--made crazy statements, "aim of the stay away was to make South Africa ungovernable."
The stay away took place on the 5 and 6th of Nov. ,onday and Tuesday. We called employers
and it seems that the stay away increased in effectiveness on the second day.
Migrant workers were as involved as the union members. The trade unions and the community
organizations tended to be in the east Rand. There was a very strong FOSATU presence n the
Vaal triangle there was a i-ajor concentration of the working class with issues such as rent,
the general sales tax, the schools---the army had been teaching in the schools. It may have
been the army intervention that swung the whole thing. COSAS was very active in this but the
important thing is that the fathers got together with their children. Because the parents
talked with the children the student worker link was forged.
Management's response to the stay away was no work--no pay, a cautious reaction. SASOL was
atypical. They took a tough position toward the Chemical Workers Union. (the coal miners have
joined the chemical workers Union).




Eddie Webster---page 2 0, A
The stage is being set for a National Legal Strike. The Industrial court must declatrthe dispute

and after 30 days it can be legal.
Get South African Review II, from Raven Press.

24 unions had all declared a dispute over the SASOL dismissals.
1) first there will be a conciliation board;

2) there can be a Legal Strike--National Legal Strike.
Early Feb. would be the first that this could happen. At best it might be 1/2 effective all over
the country. (Neal Agate-100,000) (New Federation-300,000)

The State Hesponse: the police did not try to force people back to work, in part because they
were busy guarding key installations from the students.
They started to detain people on Thursday and over the next week they picked up 24 individuals.
These people e -"e held for at least 1 month. About 1/2 were union Lnd 1/2 were community
leaders.
They were held under Sec 23, Internal Security--subversion. The union leaders were let out on
l000rand bail.
The Stay Away was not a subversive activity rather it was a demonstration of power. It is not

a lever for social change.
The trade unions are not leadership cults.
The Stay Away was very locally based on specific issues.
UDF was not involved in the stay away though its affiliates were.
The union officials were not eager to go iito political action. They were worried about retrench-
ments, the effects on organization. They went along because the union membership wanted to
participate.
Dort feel that the forward march has been sx, f ixxa~imte halted but it is difficult to have
union growth in times of economic deterioration.
The number of business closures has not been all that high but there have been retrenchments.
Business thinks the rxfEt recession is here to stay. For the first time they are really worried
about disinvestment.
The "constructive disengagement" may firm up in the next few months.
"Geldschliping" moving rands out of the country in a systematic way SixKiRm since Zoweto--its
a measure of economic and political fear.
There is nothing in the current situation that warrents the degree of panic nor optimism
on the other side.

The National Uniun of mineworkers now 100,000 and growing. Our survey found that the machine
operators on the rock face have 11 years and the team boss have on average 16 years experience.
These people are stable migrant labor. More internal labor is being used.




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