Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
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Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
Physical Description: Archival
Language: English
Creator: Carter, Gwendolen M.
Copyright Date: 1985
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Bibliographic ID: UF00095707
Volume ID: VID00054
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-Z2 a mmed Dan:or Johannesberg, Assistant Director, Operation Hungar
;'as pressured to stand for election, refused, has been detained


Azapo is an organization which has a philospphic base and no plan
to get to its goal.
Back Consciousnesss(BC) was, and is an important psychological
step IXXXaiXX IY:jg3iXE lXXi:KXX a form of psychotherapy that
permits the development of self value and the perseppbon of the
self as a human being of value. However it is seen as a phase that
must be passed through by many of the present group of leaders.
Azapo tends to be moved by an ideology and does not concentrate
on the problem---the problem is racism.
Rev. Zefania Kameta--Namibianlx-early proponent of BC--"to be black
ihS-outh Africa is worse than being a dog".
Biko drew the equation between capitalism and racism.
Azapo has gotten caught up in the rhetoric of socialism and is trying
to out do the UDF (United Democratic Front) in the use of this
rhetoric. An example of this rhetoric is the term Racist Capitalism
which is nEit not non-racist but is anti-capitalist. Azapo asserts
that blacks are dispossessed and defeated people and that the whites
are capitalis colonial opressers.
T~he National Front (NF) contains elements that say that the whites
must go home. Others elements are willing for the whites to remain
but they will have to apply for permission or be on limited resident
visas.
To the extent that Azano has made people moeex aware of the problems
and the conditions it is goodwto the extent that it has made people
more racist it is bad.
In time the FAO gives rise to Biko who intern gives rise to the NF
which gives rise to A7apo. The PAC and Biko ar('true pan-africanists
while th- NF and Azapo do not represent a truely africanis movement.
Saths Oooppr, Aubri Makiena Curtis Mkondu are seen as trators.
When thejmoved from Azapo to other activities they were held to be
renegades .
Azapo takes a noncolaborationist line and in that resembles i the
old Unity movement.
The 6ape has never identified with Africa end was much more the


Unity movement.







Atapo and Unity have formed an interesting alliance during the election
boycotts but it probably will not gel. It will break down because
while thes groups can organize on issues, they have not been able
to organize around their respective ideologies.
The leadership of the UDF has credibility and is chart-rist but the
mass of members in the affiliated organizations are NF in thought.
The UDF is more organiz-d in its structures and has credible personalities
in leadership roles. These people camd from many of the affiliated
organizations ahd were able to bring in the people because they
believe that the leade-rs will not do anything against their interests.
PA6 '.-.on support aw.y from AH6 Soboui was recognized as a national
leader.
There are difference ing the ANH
I) the ANC of Letuli, Jababa, Mandela, and this group w'ou~t include
Tambo.
II) the ANC outside that is waging the armed struggle.
thought of in a different w.ay, the ANC(I) wanted to become part of
the system r.nd AI C(II) w',nts to destroy the system.
Lots of people think i of the AHC as represented by group I, as
exemnlified by Kelson Mandela the martyr. BC, Inkata, VDF all recog-
nize Helson as a grader simply 'because he is not there.


In &976, when Winnie was riding in a car through Soweto a group of
youths were stoneing it with pieces of brick while shouting, "'-andela
Mandela, Mandela." She jumped out of the car and demanded to know if
they had .any ide of v:hat the man stood for and what ltr did they
think they W.FTr doing. (the point of this story was to illustrate
the fact tat thse youn men, :who had grown up while -ndela was
in prison thought tht they ovwed .n allegience to him while not
really knowing anything .about the man or his program and commitments.)


Gat"6ha But:il.si believes that he is following int the ANC tradition.


Formed in 1983-'84, the UDF has many mrmbprs who acknowledge the
Fre-e6om Charter but by no means do 4-11l affiliates accept the Charter.
For s--ome the Charter is too moderate, for some Ch.pte-r 2 of the
Charter promotes ethnicity.
For example, at the meeting to adopt the Freedom Charter as a working
doc um,
ant for the. UDF th-e p':rties included; Ir-vilk Alleyander from









the Unity movement, xMYs and Yacoob (the blind lawyer) who comes
from th'e passive rsistalnce movement---the NIC, TIC do not share
Mandela's outlook.
A consequence of the revival of the NIC and TIC is that it could
promote ethnicity but the leaders have been careful to insure that
the existence of these two. orgrnanizations dd not give rise to this
sort of problem.
The '.ransval Indian community ha is a trader community and have been
seen as exploitative end not part of the suffering mass.


The UDF can only work as a protest movement.
It fills tuo important functions. At one level it provides organization
while at the other it may provide the basis for a new South Africa.
At present the energy is being devoted to converting people v:ithin
the affiliated organizations to acceptance of the Charter while at
the same time the organization of th, mass has to beconducted around
issues. It is the doing (issue orientation'+that gains support.
Using issue orientation it is rossiblP to mobilize some diverse
groups, Ga~Cha, the National Front, :nd even the Labor Party.
In the Transval, for example, the coordinating committeepes among
the org.nizrtions were represented by the following people:
Don Nateman---labor party
Cassem Salugee and Dr. Jassit---Charterists
Gibson Tule --Inkata
Mohammed Dangor functioned as chairman.
Compromise was possible because all of these people were friends end
were able to sit down and work out their differences and objectives
togethPr. Then the individuals .-re able to, by force of personality
drag in the organizations that they represented.
When th- Labor 1arty-Nateman---decided to participate in the elections
the unity of the coordinating committee broke.
Don Nateman started vith SACTU but joined the Labor Party to take
the Labor partyto a more progressive line. Nateman had been banned
when the ANC leaders went to trial and he remained under the
banning order for 15 years. He is a marxist ideology .
At this point cooperation seems to be no longer possible, the
various organizations are competing with each other to highjack


issues so that they cen build their own constituencies.







There has been a change in leadershipMnotlana is out, Tula is
out, others are out of the structured organizations however these
people still enjoy recogniAian and support.
For example, Don Mateman got a 70% poll in Eldorado Park (Johannesb'rg)
his home district. DCspite the opposition to his running by the
ULF, the people say him as someone who would do something for them.
He was associated with Sesulu,Mbekei, Mandela group---he was banned
when they went to jail.- Now he is in Parliament.
If Don Matera had not urged people to boycott the elections and to
some extent came out against Bon Nateman, Nateman's poll would
have been even higher.
Hendrickse is not trusted .


F7OGEAPHIC RESPONSE TO ISSLTS.

JohannesbPrg---UDF
Fastepn Cape---UDF
small pockets of Natal---UDF
9( *. 7:- *:" -. X-

Natal Africans---Gacha Eutelasi has support because of long tribal
history---note that the Zululand Council of Churches
supports Gat'cha and that the SACC works against him.

UDF
Eastern Cape Colored; the Labor Partk and NxiianisxFrL are neck and
neck, the National Front has small supDort especially
in Grahamstovn.
".'pest e Cape
ean ape UBF---Bosak, or Labor Party
Care Patterland

(H-ndrickser is a congregational church : ministr-r)
(Eocsak---thP church structure will cause hi- problems but the commu-
nity at large W'ill not care about his sexual indiscretions)


Northern Cape Africans---National Front, S&buque
Northern Cape Colored---Labor Party, old Federal Party.
Northern Transval-Africans--National Front, Azapo
Southern Transval Africans---UDF and Inkata (workers in the mines ae
townships of Sowveto, Tembesa) and small
pockets of support for tte a-t- -er~Im-
pe-,F -tfy Nk-i/' riFv


I'e-st R~and--- UTDF






Transval Colored, in Johannesbrrg---UDF, National FronA,Labor Party
Transval Colored, outside Joberg---Labor Party, Freedom Party (racist)
Transval Indians---UDF--Jasset (on trial in Durban),Casscm Solugee
Natal Indians---Urban---UDF, (NIC)
Natal Indians---Rural---voted for Eeddy or Fajbanski or they supported
Chinsani who formed an alliance with But:lasi
and urged boycott of the polls.


RELATIVE STRENGTH
The gov-rnment will continue to govern South Africa but it will not
br in control. The government has not been able to find credible
leaders to participate in local authority structures.
Botha is seen as a white who wanted to do something but did the
wrong thing.
Helen Susman---has wide support, seen as a doer.
Van Z1.le Schlabert---some support


The most likely development is a continuedc rise in, urban terrorism.
This is not going to br easy for the governnmnt to stop but it will
not bring the governm-nt dowv.n. To control the inflow of ANC members
and materials the government will have to secuTP the borders
of Swaziland,Mozembique, Botswana.
Ino avuma is on again---Chief Tembu is reported to have signed for
ana independent Ingwavuma that will link-up with Swaziland.
Swaziland is rife with nepotism and po personal avarice and the
leaders will accommodate to South African demands. The queens inter-
Pst in politics is to see their own son as king.
The Government has to block all infiltration a-nd get the African
states to fight the ANC at the borders.
Inside the country,,the Black Trade Unions are the greatest potential
threat. To date the membership is only semi-politicized and the
whole 'movement is fragmented.
In FOSATU the leadership is Unity Movement while the mass supports UD F
CU$A is t;e most liberal, Black Consciousness is strong in NIt:l
and Transval though there is a large number of the Natal membership
that supports Inkata. The National Frontkx hassx support in Fastern
Cape.
The V\e'ittrn Cape is controled by TUCSA.






. *

Thp rural areas are a wild card. Politically unsophisticated but
with increasing frustration and awarAess.


ATTITUDES OF THF MASS
If we ask what is the meaning of Liberation?
Africans answer "this is our country, we want it back!" Thpere is
an element (UDF and ANC) that is willing to accept whites as
being part of Africa. The National Front holds that there is no
place for the whites.
Indians answer that they must accommodate and survive. They are
afraid of both sides (Africans/Whites) and the majority 'Would
prefer to preserve the status quo, while using the )3gr. o
rhetoric of liberation. The leadership has been honest in that
both in rYtoric and belief they have identified with the Africans
but this is not true of the ma@s. Gatcha Butelesi threatened the
Indians during the election---he asserted that voting vw. old be a
betrayi.il of the African majority.
The young ppo:lp in Johannpsbprg believe in liberation the majority
outside the cities are not committed. The majority is 'fc.fraid of
the reaction that would happen if a revolution took place.
In the Eastern Cano thpre is committmet from all sectors -of
all believe in an equitable society but the don't agree on stratigies
(UDF vs LP)
In the WVistrrn Cape liberationxxth means that you get the sra.l--
rights as whites---become white. A very racist area, iKaffier still
used as a derogitory t.rrm in 6ap4vowin. Crossroads is all African.
The Indir.n and Coloreds Teoel soryy for the African but haO.g-
!'orthr-rn :'Sbburbs Attitude. Boesak is changing this attitude a
little, after all he is not from the pensula, he grew up in
social contact with Africans.
The Orange Free State coloreds believe that whites are doing ok.
There is support for the National Front among the Africans.


Transval coloreds split half and half between racist or liberationist.
Transval Africans strongly support ANC though there is strong PAC
support in some areas. The UDF-NF following divides along these
lines.


The African soldiers have no politics, rural people, its a job.







Very Black political orcanizationi is against conscription. There
har b-en talk of a professional army. In thp PFP Helon would favor
a professional army but v.ioul. insist that change in the social order
v:as a nrerequispc; Harry Schwartz would say tho.t it is necessary
at t-;imes-t.o ma-intain la-w -and order.
Sc-hwartz ";sill use socialist rhetoric but he is at heart a capitalist,
=len- is -true -free enterprise.
VanZqle is .an honest person who looks at situations with an inner
desire to see the afrikaner survive.
he. gove-rnrment has no policy, it is fragmented and afraid of -the
conservatives. Even more that being afraid of the conservatives
th y are afraid of destroying the unity of the folk, this unity is
more important to them than even South Africa. At all costs -"fighting
?-.onr broth--rs" bust be avoided.
This is not so stiron an ethic among the urban ,4Afrikaner---the urban
.onid kirxyy society is not afraid of becoming heritics.
B-prs i-. was isblated because he was a trator to the volk. This
Ce,
a" al-o true of Brap.m Fis/her and is true of Johan v/d Vyver. v/d Vyvci
r'. a signer ind -key movr in the Kozynoina DEclarat.ti-on -.nd that is:
one of the reasons that he .-zFs dismiss-d from Potchestromm.
-'Th English South Africans are pure opportunists, they intend to
survive and make a buck.
The Natal Tnglish are very conservative.
The Jp vish community has switched sides and is no','. conservative.


PC',T- B3FC-U37 OF ICONOTMIC FOSITON
Ar-'lo Amfrican .nd Sun Lum are reported to handle 2,7 of the 3 billion
r-'-e tha circulates each day. Harry cane out against+ the constitution
:. O-owd c- ne out for it.
-:- businp ses are important because they finance social v.ork inside

h- country but outside of the government.


Ink<.ta: Mandida is a rabid tribalist. and thr Tribal position is
strong--in Sowete 405 of thp people are Zulu. Gatcha is the
.rrndson of Shaka. Letu i was made leader of the ANC because he
'a- a ZULU and a Paramount chief.


0-,
*" ration Hun~ar-P.O.Box 32257 Braamfontein, JohannesbeTg, S.A.




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