Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00095707/00045
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Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
Physical Description: Archival
Language: English
Creator: Carter, Gwendolen M.
Copyright Date: 1985
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Bibliographic ID: UF00095707
Volume ID: VID00045
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
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Alpltair H. SparkCs, Johannesberg, Jan. \ 1985.
.1i

The ULDF has no cohr-r'nt leadership, Terror(lekota) is the most coherent
of the lot. Bopak is a draw card.
How little the whites know of the Black community is difficult to realize.
(I have become) increasingly suspicious of Schlemmer's polls.
The Institute oi Eace Relations has taken on the apDearance of an
adjunct to tkx In ta.


Bers ) is taking over from Tutu---Bores is one of the few with a
perception of the black communication mode. He has extensive youth contacts,
Blacks tend to be partisan. Be4rs hangs loose. He would say that the
UDF has the broadest bsse of support. In1ata's only base is Zulu, and
they have been losing the Zulu youth.


Azapo saw its low ebb in 1980. 1982 was a bit of revival with the release
of Cooper and Matangoya (?) from Rob*n! island. Nevil Alexander had always
been at odds with the ANC. (Alexander felt that the ANC was not a true
prolitarian movement.) The old Unity movement that had been beaten down
in 1978 began.to resurface in 1982. In '82 Alexander picked Azapo as
being easy to take over. His intent was -to-turn it into.a national forum
for class analysis, etc.
They have developed the Ideology of Racial Capitalism and are in the
process of presenting themselves as the true socialists. They have
got good milagg out of their anti-American position.
And America's image is at rock bottom!


I have a feeling that I cant substantiate, about Azapo: Yany of the
members are Indians, admirers of Loui Faricans---its the old Black Musplem
Islamic link-up, PAC was getting its training in Libya; they are not
true Africanists.
The Cape Action League is a colored organization.
B.ko defined Black as not white and there-by included all of the Blacks
and some of the Ooloreds and Indians. The millitant Indians were delighted.
So now Indians are running Azapo but if the Africans see this leadership
growing in strength it will put a ctnling on Azapo's growth. Also
take note of the strength of the Black church.




S -Sparks---page2


Thp church people are really plugged in. They form a network that is
in close touch with the community.
There were little groups of ministers who played important roles
in Seboking and the Val solidarity demonstrations.
Father Patric Noonan, an Irish priest in Sharpville/ Edward Lennox,(also
a priest)
Often the churchmen are playing the role of the committee of Ten.
At funerals during the unrest you could see that Tutu and Camancha
command respect, Boesak too. Beers is dismissed as a honky.:
The sex waSnx scandal will hurt Boesak with the church structure,

among the colored it will have some impact but the Black community isn't
going to care (who he sleeps with).
Tutu and Boesak spend too much time out of the country. They are not
providing leadership.
Boesak is an able politician. He is a good platform speaker, far
superior to Kennedy.


Tambo could be a national leader. He is a skilled diplomat. He has
managed to talk his way into high levels of western government. He doesn't
use shrill ideological rubbish. Alfred K'zong did awful things after
N'komati accord. He made statements that had everybody in Mozambique
fuming. Tambo sent Tabo M'beke down and he did a beautiful job of
smoothing it over.
There is a lack of organization and of a leader among the internal
groups. NF claims a membership of 600,000, but you have to question that
even if they are counting all of their affiliate's members. The UDF
is also over counting.
Boesak runs scared but has the ability and the organizational skills.
Tutu is too keen on publicity and couldn't organize a teddybear's
picnic.
Archie Ghmedi is a disaster; he can't make a one line statement.
Albertina is a rock of strength but not a leader.
Patrick Lekota is young, inexperiencPd, good but not as good as Sath
cooper.
The govprnmnBt wants Nelson to do a Sobuque. They are thinking of
dumping him but he wouldn't stay where they put him unless they put him
under guard and then where is the difference. He will never accent the
conditions they want to nut on.




Sna rksc---na.g 3

Gwen, for the last 30 years we have been monitoring the movement of
a glacier.
The trouble in the tow-nships is endemic. The upheavals have extended
a little into the rural areas but they have been mostly ouiet.
Craddock is in a state of turmoil, the schools closed.
Also Albany, P.T., Tebesa, Sebokingprestless.

There is no intellectual leadership in the English community. The
nyu TiP s hnas bpcomn one of the strongest u'-nort.rs of the govrrnernt.


The Pconomic problems are due to over sending, the g;rovth of bureaucr c"
look at tlh cPreation of the new Povprnment departments. 12 new r1iniiters,

12 new departmr-nts, all the own affairs. 36/o of the economically active
nporle -.;ork for the state. (he -ay mean active wh'ites)
Three forces come together; the economic crisis, the constitutional-
crisis, CTmibia lasted 1 year); and the endemic unrest in the townshirs.
Apart,4e is now part of the constitution. It cpn't vork.
The grov;th of the Unions is important but the politization is slow.


There is no pressure on Namibia. Since the linkage with the 6,ubans
was brought in the government just says go talk to the americns.
-Ther are about 700,000 portuguese (they desprve their own house ther-=
are only 860,000 Indians and they hrvep their house) and all the old
Rhod eps. They want revenge. These are old commanders and people with
military trainining who bought border firms :-nd dragged their equipment
through the river. These mercenary forces and elements of the SDF ar=
able to ke-p MKR going and the government can't stop it.
If N'komati worked,it would be a blow to SABIH




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