Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00095707/00042
 Material Information
Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
Physical Description: Archival
Language: English
Creator: Carter, Gwendolen M.
Copyright Date: 1985
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00095707
Volume ID: VID00042
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.

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Monty Na~ao--only non-white let at ItI--Johannesberg, 1985 Ja Y).
Ke.O_, McLfndj0 CL Q iat.e
There is supposed to have been a meeting between the ANC and Nat representatives in Lusaka.
Beeld had an ANC interview. There have been calls for the unbanniig of the anC and PAC.
Ken-Berman's article explains why the IRRtook its position on legalization of ANC.

Trace Uninons still characterized by many factions. There is talk of a superfederation.
FASATU, KUSA, Food and Canning, Feat Packing would be in it, SAWU would not be in.
The National Forum Committee was a result of an alliance of ikl Black Consciousness with
Unity (old Cape Action League). NFC strong in socialist getoric. Workers socialist republic
of Azania. UFB parallels ANC and NFC parallels PAC.

Nov 5-6 stay away (1984)
Simmering School unreat(issues incihde SRCs, corporal punishment, sexual harassment) proceeded
the elections In Sept in Sharpesville a black councilman was hacked apart. 168 deaths
have been attributed to police actions. The Transvaal Stay Away Committee issued its call
and 1,000,000 people xtadt responded, in some areas 100l stay away, 65% in Soweto.
The crackdown on the trade unions is because the unions helped to make the stay away such a x
success. Gatcha told his people not to observe the strike but many of the hostel) dwellers
were very active in support of the stay away. Many of these people have dual memberships
in Inkata and in other unions. It was another example of the erroding of Inkatabs urban support.
Eddie Webster and the Labor Monitoring Group can give some idea of the extAnt and organization
of the stay-awny.
Big business came out against the detention of the Union leader alone ; wi th UDF .nul RMC held
after the stay awoy) because Liuy went to kmeop the lines of co0rnunicatiof. open. They need
these people to negotiate with, so business put pressure on the government.

There has been an increasing use of the Army as a police force. At Christmass they used
the Army to direct traffic in white suburbs. They are conditioning the white comurunity to
accept an Army presence.

After SACTU was driven into exile in 1963 there was a period of quiet ano then black Consciousness.
BAWU began worker education. Llso there were the Union Training Program and the Industrial
Trade Society.
With the Durban strikes TWAC, like FASATY is non-racial, and acted as the coordinating
committee for the trace unions. CUSA -black leadership.
In 1978 the action was trade union and I political. SAWU was politically organized across
the board-essentially aimed at mass particpatory democracy. fASATU said that Afi SACTU

Nasoo, page 2.
was too political and not focusing on the union/worker orientation
The registration argument, FASATU registered, SAWU' GWU, F and C refused to register.
TUCSA worked with the government, it has always believed in cooperation.
A larger federation is being talked about with all invited to participate.
Agget was inj detention, so was Barb. Hogan. Ruth and Gerit Gerhardt, KGB moles,.Nancy Lawrance.
In fretoria now, Craig Williamson, the Special Branch in'lltrator of thu AhC. lie knew the ANC
so well, at the trials gave the clearest expositions, he sent names of close WAiMi a".
In the Ret Von Merdon cao h1lo won 700((ranri, 50O0 w:,s time barred and he woau aatieoutid clu)Lv even
though he won; 600,000 rand in coats.
Neal's death started the unity talks (1981) and there has buen a series of talks ever oince.
The emergence of a superfederation of tradmunions by Nov. 1985 will change the political face
of South Africa.
The strength of the trade unions is in their levels of organization, they are hard to decapitate.
The unions in the superfederation will be the strongest of the unions. SAWU split over
leadership; sam kikine vs. Thomakle Gqweta, the argument is really over style.
There is political cooperation between SAWU and UDF ( UDF/ANC, IFCJPAC)
The new unions are very different from the earlier unions. SACTU had a politically dual role
representing the nationalist aspect of tkh ANC goals. Unions are now separate from political
activity and not affiliated with political groups.
Eastern Cape Unions tend to be very political.
Kasem salugi--JAM Treasurer for UDF.
On the day of the election for the Indian House of Parliment the police beat workers and poll watch

Spontaneous situations lead to organization.

Uncle Dennis, Rep. for __ East, Durban, is an example of someone corrupt to the core.
Maxine Hart-social worker-charged with furthering the aims of the AEC
Sampson Indall
Premer Nidue --escape of Jenkins
Archibald Minzimyati--statement under duress
Sopewo Yaskimdny-drugs, gon-missing- had case against pati minister of police. Ciskei stadium.
Barbara (Hogan) the first white woman to be tortured.

They are trying to make a case tLtt the stay away was a plot to mxk overthrow the government
which would constitute treason. They may make ii it stick.

The Allied Workers--Johannesberg, 1985 RJ ^ Pt0 Y,-- ) .C C A
The strike was organized by tne Stay Away Committee. COSAS asked organizations for help',.' .lt
support, just a few days before the strike. The date was agreed on at a meeting and notice
was given'through pamphlets and newspapers.
The response was good because the conditions are so bad. There was the rent issue, the student
SRC demLnds; the time was right.
Firms have been asked by the security police about their economic loss, how many people were out,
etc. 1000's of people have been dismissed.
SASOL-6000 dismissed, end others not reported.
The union has no relief funds, we have been organizing underpaid workers.
The troops were already in the townships so that wasn't the cause. The police are always
present and the army is put in periodicllJy. In Sept it was the school children who provoked

.hn 7 8s
Gilbert Marcus--lawyer--with John D4 -Johannesberg, 1985.
UDF is a drtiaatic devuloplwt' I do uooie legal work for them.
We got the third vol. unbanned, for libraries.
The appeal against the. Freedom Charter ban. In the 1980's the Charter reemerges as organizations
like the NIC and TIC push the Freedom Charter as the document for the liberation of South Africa.
After the 1960 ban of the ANC it was assumed that the Freedom Charter was also banned. The
Freedom Oharter was a passport to detention. Everytime it appeared \t)j was banned. Then we
argued that the sentiments in the Freedom Charter are intact legitimate. Organizations began
to debate it. The Black Sash was having a meeting and Jill typed a copy and shifted the order
of the paragraphs. We showed that the Charter is not unique to the ANC/ Congress of the People,
nothing in the document is subversive. There have been 4 or 5 cases now--the state just can't
understand that its not subversive.
Raymond Suttner--annual academic freedom lecture--"Freedom Charter a document for the '80s"
Craig Williamson atz has said "most of the Freedom Charter aims are accomplished".

The Group Areas Victory consisted of getting a ruling that if the coloreds or Indians were
convicted of a violation of group areas they still could not be evicted.
The Tri Cammeral Parliment requires a change in the Group Areas Act. First the Mixed Marnage
and Immorality Act then in 2 or 3 years major concessions on the Group Areas Act; trading rights
and amendments to provide local option. Housing counts most.
Don't underestimate the threat of the right wing.
The level of unrest is enormous. Geographically and in scope it is larger than before.

Strike Committee-forged an alliance wituniAons, community organizations. FOSATU--CUSA were
astute not to get into politics.
5 people were charged with subversion (Mosses Myokeso?) after the stay away. There was wide
detention of union leaders. This provoked business to protest to the government. There were
meetings between the orgpnize6 commerce and the minister. In the end the court granted bail of
only 2000 rand and have to report in once a week. There is still no charge sheet on them.
they were "brought to court with indecent haste" for bouth Africa.
The Embassy protests in the U. S. are having an effedt. The South African dependance on U.S.

Gilbert Marcus--page 2.
and british conservative governments is very important. -U. 8See- apeasure-d---

urgemno-charge. -
The Center for Applied Legal Services believes that the legal process is uarditilizea. under utilized.
For example, in defending plais oiflense.::, we jammed the dourt. We sent down 1 lawyer every day
and there was a dramatic change, the cases were thrown out. We are educating the presiding
of fi.cern.

Bengi Pogrand---RDM, Johrnnesberg, 1985 '.Jty) .
The Sobuque book is almost done.
Realized that I have some wonderful interview transcripts on closed file at Yale.
Saw Nelson in August.
His daughter (Mandela's) from his first marriage is staying with Fatima Mkir in Durban. She
is academically good and I woote to Steve Solash to help find her a schollarship--you might
breath a word in his ear. Her father said, in patriarcic style, "I have no objection to her going."

The situation is very bleak. Im afraid we have passed a point of no return. Gone through a
barrier of some sort. The economy is pushed to the point where there is nothing to scrape
from the bottom of the barrel. The whole story has not been brought out. The drought has
exacerbated problems.
Mozambique--South Africa wants N'kamati to succeed but they can't do it, can't bring the MNR
under control. When a story ran with the line "certain elements in the military" ran all hell
broke loose. Supplies get in from Malawi and Portugal if not South Africa.

Nelson won't go.
"Past certainties are not there."
"The thought that the government's grip on power is challenged or under threat is nonsense. its
a good way to get a bullet in che head."
Its an ugly breaking up process--vilence and counter violence--the killing of the community
In the Sharpsville area the crowd started matching toward a white area. The only other time
that has happened was in '76.
When the mobs come out it marks a major turning point.
The army is solid. The unhappy people have left the country already.

There is a lot of division in the unions, often it is personality clash. If the Unions Pt
into negotiations then they have to stay in role and not get involved in politics. There was
a lot of argument, the NF called it a stunt, said the "unions were highjacked".
The trouble in the vaal triangle was the straw that broke the camals back.

Sister Bernda t Q4 gs in at this point, does most of the talking from this point on.
"What is next. The people are lacking so much". XS miay The black schools will be l xxx
starting the same time as the white schools. There is a rumor that the students are trying to
coordinate their activities--plan now to "go back but protest". The teachers failed to take
a resolution in support fi af for a three day boycott. The Principals are waiting to see what
the kids say. In the schools it is total anarchy It is going to be a national issue. The
76 promises have not been fulfilled.
In the vaal this is the 5th month that rents have not been paid/ it is part of the protest.

In SOweto the riots hve been u

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