Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
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Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
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Language: English
Creator: Carter, Gwendolen M.
Copyright Date: 1982
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fr C, Salisbury, April 21, 1982
DALE PFEIFFER

GC This paper by Duncan Clark on Dependency is going to be paft of the
total . .


DP Yes, we're hoping it's going to be the center piece to it. Well,
I think as you look at the regions future development means that
they've got to have greater linkage with each other and also each
have alternative sources for products, for exports and for moving
those products. It doesn't make any sense to reduce dependency
on S. Africa and then be totally dependent on Mozambique or Zimbabwe.


GC Right. Or on Denmark or something like that. But you're going to
take it in a broad scale?


DP In economics you have to reduce your costs by being able to compete.
If you get lower prices on transport and you can say to somebody,
well, I can ship it cheaper in that direction rather than going in
that direction. .


GC Do you think that they are set on trying to keep it inside the
SADCC region or do you think they are more realistic at taking
what's the least expensive? I'm not sure about transport, if they
would be willing to continue South African transport if they could
see a way to bypass it.

DP I think you're wrong there. I think they're very realistic in that
they're always going to need part of S. Africa----

GC Oh, they're always going to need part of it


DP They do want to Zimbzbwe to go go the shorter
distances for some of the products----to Maputo or to Ba 9-isa


GC But they want to have alternatives so the S. Africans couldn't
cut them off.


DP Oh, that plus the cost, the cost is prohibitive in some cases to
ship all the way from San Jose or to Dubban when you should be
shipping probably to Dar es Salaam or to





page 2


GC Oh, for sure, yes. So you think the alternatives are likely to be
the cheaper ones in the long run because the distances . .

DP If they get the alternatives it's going to be economics that dictates
what goes in which direction, which is what we are all about. I
picked up an interesting quote in a document that was written by
somebody in S. Africa about the purpose of building the
from Transvaal to Maputo and it was to reduce dependency on Anglo
and S. Africa. They wanted an alternative way of slipping.

GC Do you think that philosophy has picked up then?

DP I think so. It's difficult when you say "they" for SADCC because
I think you've got/ iagrpSAPCechnicrats who understand the
value and the problems with the regional approach W & that they're
willing to push along. Just the fact that they talk together,
I think is positive.

GC Do they talk quite a bit together apart from these meetings?

DP I don't think so except maybe on specific topics, but the meetings
are becoming fairly frequent at least on the individual topics. I
think there have been two meetings now in the last 6 months on
industrialization policy.

GC Has there really now? Now that's---we don't get that kind of

DP Well, SADCC doesn't let that information become that public because
donors are not invited. They've had a meeting in Angola this past
month on energy---

GC Which is supposed to be its field---

DP They had a meeting scheduled in Botswana on agriculture research
and cancelled it because of lack of interest. Now there's an
internal problem I think in SADCC's --- There's been a talk for
some time that Botswana would be giving up the agriculture research
mandate and giving it over to Zimbabwe or Some





page 3


people in Botswana government want to do that and some don't
and it seems other SADCC countries do want
and that makes sense


GC They worked with the for a while didn't they? And did
that work out?


DP Not very well. 's not interested in expanding in Africa
at this point except for very small activities. They particularly
didn't want to set up a regional center and they finally agreed to
set up a coordinating unit for agricultural research. You might
have a consultant technical committee for research in Zimbabwe,
why do you need both. They have the Secretariat and that's a big
responsibility and they do have animal disease for the region and
the capability to serve the rest of the region.

GC The vaccine for the hoof and mouth disease I was assured was the
biggest success of SADCC so far.

DP Oh, really!

Cy? So the way in which SADCC functions then/~i a summit and the Council
of Ministers which meet twice a year and beyond that people simply
prepare for the next Council of Ministers meeting..

DP Well, unless there's a full-time Commission like in Maputo. It's
an ongoing function. They've got a small staff of Mozambiqueans
and I think now '7 advisors provided by Nordic countries.


Cy And they actually administer projects---

DP Well, they don't administer any project directly. What they do
is the planning for projects. All projects are done on a bilateral
basis-----between the country and the donor or by the country itself.
Then the donor's not involved at all. SA4CC as far as we know is
not empowered to receive any money as an organization. There's been
some debate for some time about whether
technical systems fund for the Secretariat to be able to respond





page 4


quickly to needs throughout the region for studies or whether the
Secretariat itself should have technical advisors.

GC Sweden's given them some money for staff

DP Is that right? I didn't hear that


Cy I think they've given SATAC the money.

DP SATAC is where Sweden and Norway are.

GC Yes, I thought they were providing the Secretariat some funds.


DP I don't think so because that's been under debate for some time.

Cy So all projects are strictly bilateral between the government and
the donor or ----a specific government and a specific donor---
or a group of governments willing to get together with a group of
donors, they could do that. But it's all been separate from S36CC
SA-CC clears the project and then the project later on is identified
as a regional project.

DP We've been assisting the last two years in constructing the---
reconstructing the road between Salisbury and Lusaka, or at least
a large stretch of it and we've had to divide that project into two
in terms of aid obligation. We've obligated for Zambia $16.4 million
dollars in loan money and $1 million in grant and then we're just
getting ready to sign a $4.2 million loan to Zimbabwe. Each country
responsible for implementation for its portion of it. Now if you
were doing, just creating a project, just doing an institutional
project to create a regional veternary faculty SADCC would
make the determination of which country was to have that faculty.
The donor or donors contributing to it would provide their assistance
directly to that country.

GC So it's a bit more complicated?

DP It isn't more complicated. I think its a bit better in a way.





page 5



DP The problem you've got is that each country accepting a project
has to take into consideration the recurrent costs it takes as a
result of that project, an institution particularly. It gives them
a lot of problems. It's nice today for prestige to have a school
of medicine established in your country or region, but later on
you're producing doctors for all the other countries and you're
footing all the bills. Early arrangements maybe for cost sharing
break down when countries run into economic problems or decide to
break away and start their own faculty.


GC We were told about the facilities for veterinary training---that
Zambia wanted it all, but then the others decided they had to
have a share.


DP Well, Zimbabwe said it wanted to share, Botswana wanted a share.
Zimbabwe said we're going to build our faculty anyway, we'll just
provide 20 positions for someone else from within the region---
20 positions for other country people to come to their school, as
paying members. But then again Zimbabwe in doing that.is assuming
the recurrent costs for operating the school for those extra 20
people. It's generous of them, but it's a cost to them.

GC Yes, and it's a continuing cost....


DP And then it's the region saying we need 50, not 20 and Zimbabwe
,aying that we've created 20 and that's it.

GC Then can Zambia pick up the other 30 or so?

DP Yes, they could. The problem is that SADCC should be able to look
and say well the whole region needs Z number of veterinarians and
the capacity needs to be created here, here and here, or here--one
place. That's the way in theory that they should operate, but it
didn't work in their faculty here.


GC Do you think it will come to work that way?




page 6


DP Frankly, no. I think every country is in economic problems to
the point that they don't want to assume any more costs.

GC Oh, you think it's that rather than national pride ...
DP I don't think they take a lot of national pride in creating
regional capability, no. Zimbabwe, I think, is the wrong perspective
for looking at the region because it's so much better off than
anyone else.

GC Where do you take your focal point?

DP Well, I tend to look at other countries in the regions. The
danger in BADCC, another danger, is that Zimbabwe is so far
advanced and donors are ioo keen to put there money here where it
will work that other countries are going to become jealous and you
can't have a regional situation where one country's getting all
the spoils.

GC Well, that happened I guess with

DP I don't know whether that was the case. I know there's a lot of
resentment by my other directors in the region about Zimbabwe
getting most of the money, and the sheer fact they've gotten all
my new money in the regional program thus far.

Cy pledged $75 million every year for two years
in a row. Has that come through. There's been a lot of aid A i
raised. Not only from the U.S. but from other countries, being
very sluggish, being pledged and committed, but hasn't arrived yet.

DP I think there are people who are probably questioning .possibly
now ., the first $50 million/i sbgfrobligated
and the second $25 is due in the next few months. The question is
next year whether it will be there.

Cy What typ',s of projects are we sponsoring now, the road to Lusaka?





page 7


DP No, that's not part of it. That's the regional program, that's
additive to the that's got Washington
upset and other directors of the region upset, because at one
time there was talk that $20 of the $75 million should be considered
regional. That's not the case. Zimbabwe's too smart for that.

?? All 75 is directed to Zimbabwe any regional income is on top of it.
Who appropriates the 75 being spent?


DP $50 million is for the commodity import program40 million of which
will be used for private sector, $10 for the public sector, then
15 I think will be used for agriculture and 10 for manpower...

GC What kind of produce? Manufacturing commodities?

DP The commodities are all for productive uses, there's no
consumable in it. It's all to go into industry. 40 million for
private and 10 million for public. The sale of those items will
generate of course the equivalent of 50 million Zimbabwe dollars
which will be jointly programed by aid and government for ruaal
development projects yet to be determined. One possibility
among that is a $6 million grant to build grain storage which
woid be part of the regional program.

?? So we give the equipment to Zimbabwe which in turn sells it to the
private sector and takes the money and puts% it into a special
account to be jointly funded.

?? So it's somewhat our where we give the food to a
government and they in turn sill it.

GC When you say the project is jointly funded, at what point is it
jointly funded...

DP Jointly programed. We sit down and agree jointly on what uses
those reflows will be used for




Page 8


GC I'm vary interested in the food security. You say they actually
s set up for the processes. We saw Steve/Bda when he was just
taking off for Botswana. I gather that he had been working on---
well, he had worked on Tanzania before, and he'd been working on
the Dept. of Agriculture here.


DP Well there are nine consultan/ciHat they have identified
at Kaputo. We have agreed to do two of them, one of which is
the one which Steve Lombard's working on, which FAO is doing now
but that's another story unto itself. It doesn't involve SADCC
so much as it does US package policy. We got crosswise with
Mozambique in a very undefined way and it turned out that SADCC
decided that they would rather have rO
than us. So we only ended up doing the funding for the seminars
which was called Feod Security and Water which was the first
consultancy------it wasn't really consultants it was actually
grafted-----and there are 8 other studies being done on various
topics by different donors.

GC You said there were 9 steps in the food security plan, but the
only one at the moment was on the way.

?? You mentioned something about 9 projects being undertaken by the
Minister of Agriculture here in Zimbabwe.


DP Those are the 9 consultancies.

GC That's what I thought he meant. The 9 consultancies. But what
are the 9?


DP Well, I won't be able to tick them all off, but they include
besides the one we are doing which is the grant for the seminars,
there is the Early Warning System he's doing, there's Food Marketing,
Food Storage, Food Processing, Food Reserve, Food Aid. The studies
will just look at these problems in a regional context and then
they'll be considered as I understand it by these consultant
technical committees who will then make recommendations which




Page 9


which Zimbabwe will then present to the Standing Committee on
Agriculture ----or Food Security rather, which will then make
recommendations on program policies to the Council of Ministers
from which should come projects to be presented to donors for funds.

?? Who actually writes up the individual projects.

DP The donors who are funding them----you mean the project that
eminates from the consultancy? Then the government will probably
come back and say we want to do a project based on this consultancy
and whichever donor does it will probably operate somewhat like us
and say Ok what are the terms of reference, and they are very easy
because you've done the consultancy and then you design a study --
a team to come out and do the project. I doubt whether any government
will do it, I'm sure they will call the donors to do it.

?? But the Transport Commission actually does set up projects and then
a donor comes in and then they, I assume, renegotiate the project
and then start it off.

DP Basically, yes---

?? But with Food there is no to set up the project so it's
going to be the ~inistrry of Agriculture say in Zimbabwe which
will give out the consultancy first and then if they like it and
see that there is a chance for a project, they'll come back.

DP It isn't whether they like it. They'll present it to the Regional
Technical Committee or Committees. This is new, this is the way
they are going to operate. Originally there had been some talk about
setting up a similar. commission for Food Secutiry as to SATJ.C
and they backed off on that. It was going to be called the
Agrarian Coordination Committee---They've backed away from that
and they've decided now until they have something concrete to go
with in a sector, they're not going to create an instition in the
country to carry it out. Zimbabwe's felt that that's just too
onerous and they've created this interim Food Security Support Unit
which is basically just administrative function.




page 10


GC Do we have names----- of anybocy we could get in touch with---

?? In the Ministery of Agriculture

DP Peter Murphy is the one who's in charge.

CR? So the question that comes up in/mind is at what point do you set
up an institution forthe Agriculture sector. Do you wait until you
have a whole bunch of consultancies that have been done and then
you start moving on to individual projects---

DP Will, I think that's when it occurs---when they've gotten all the
results of these consultancies. They've sat down and they've
decided that they want to make this overall food security program
recommendation to the Council of Ministers which involves XYZ,
however many projects they want to have presented to donors---At
that point I think they would probably create a more permanent
capability in Zimbabwe to look after this. It's quite onerous on
these governments in the meantime to try to carry out their own
jobs plus SADCC That's why this Ministery
has finally decided that they would rather set up a new two-man
unit to work along with them.

CR/ They talk of/T CMxOitg administrative structures and not creating
a burdensom bureaucracy sounds kood in theory

DP But it creates a burden. But it's also holding back regional
activities because it isn't functioning well. Donors get frustrated
and walk away. That's probably more in our case than maybe the
Germans who all have the same problem of working in Mozambique
where the/ARE ojects are now. Transport is obviously first
priority, the one with more projects to be done. Transport
projects outside of Mozambique or not in one way involving Mozambique
are few and far between---at least legitimate ones. We tried to
push at one point had a transport initiative
to work with SADCC, headed by W. Germany---We tried to push
from our prospective to in turn push SADCC to do a systematic
analysis of transport in the region before coming up with the projects




pago .11


because what is happening is some countries are presenting lists of
transport projects they couldn't get funding for bilaterally and
tried to get it in a regional rational and present them in the
Maputo meeting for funding. That didn't work, partly because of
lack of interest on W. Germany's part and CADA not being a
well organized institution intelf. CADA is the 7 countries:
the U.S., Canada, Britain, France, W. Germany, Belgium, and Italy
maybe. It started as the Concerted Action for Development of
Africa and it's been changed to Cooperative Development in Africa,
which is an effort by those donors to increase their
in Africa and focus them on specific problemS areas. They
identified Transport at bne point and right now we are going through
the process of trying to marry up CADA doing research with SADCC.

CR In Dar from Mr. Ryan, he was saying
that the donors there I think meet every month and discuss what
they are doing, who is doing what, what directions they're going in
and it sounded kind of like a bridge game where everyone bids on
things and then one person gets this trip and another gets that and
there is some effort made at coordination between the donors, or
aj least there is a flow of information so there's not too much
overlapping. That seems to be kind of unique.

DP Not necessarily unique. It's not always in existence. We did it
in Nairobi when I was assigned there and we tried to start something
here on a less formal basis. In fact we've had at least one luncheon
where we brought all the people together who are working on SADCC.
There are a number of other regional offices here in Salisbury, and
discuss things. It hasn't been set up on a regular basis.

GC Do you think it should be?

DP Oh, I always think it should be. Donors have very poos coordin-
ation amongst themselves, both in the field and at the headquarters
level. This CADA thin has been particularly evident in that. We
get lots of information in Washington because they're very interested
in it. Germans, French and Britains don't get anything. So we have
to share papers with them


S o we're really rather well organized?




page 12


DP No we're not. I think it will be some time before we formalize
any sort of arrangement. Governments themselves don't like it,
the governments you're helping sometimes see it as donors ganging
up on them. In some countries they all wait for the UN to take
the lead as the paramount donor organization. The UN here has no
inclination in that direction and it's not a particularly large
donor bilaterally. It certainly isn't involved in regional
activity.


CR To what extent can SADCC help to create the organization and
enforce coordination? SADCC sets up an office and projects and
then donors may not be coordinated but by buying into SADCC they
are funding specific projects there is some
sort of development aid.


DP We at least meet once a year in November where all the donors say
what they are doing. Then you have to do it on an individual basis,
except for myself, the EC and Portugeuse. None of the countries
have any regional offices functioning here yet. The British in fact
are moving theirs over from Malawi I think in the next few months,
that's a regional office, but that's not really their SADCC office.
It's more like in Nairobi which has service people go
round to each of the-----
It's a very difficult process/i8S~eep in touch with your own head-
quarters and ask them to get in touch with other headquarters and
also touching base here.


GC There don't seem to be any written reports of the donors meetings
in specific terms....

DP Which donor meeting---in November? Well that was the Blantyre
meeting with SADCC. I think they published a document on each
of those meetings.


GC Well, they published one before----one on Maputo, the big one with
SA~66, but the Blantyre.......




page 13


CR Most of those were preliminary documents on Blantyre....


DP But I think we're also getting ready to issue one that gives the
summation of the meeting. Somewhat like they did for Maputo.


GC That may be why we don't have it, because it isn't out. I have
the preliminary statement saying what the responsibilities are,
etc.


DP That was not a particularly successful meeting.


GC Was that because of where it was?


DP I think it was a lack of preparedness by most of the commissions,
the countries responsible for the sectors......mentioned the
manpower piece done by Swaziland


GC And then there was the Zambian of the government bank
which didn't fly.


DP The only good one there I think was really the Transport one
because it contained so much information on what was flying and
what was underway. The Food Security one was not a good document
at all. It was really an excuse for not doing anything because it
was a year after they'd been given an earlier mandate to start and
they really hadn't gotten anything started.


CR The Transport one was the only one that identified really specific
projects and said this is the problem and this is how we are going
to solve it and this is what we're doing---they achieved that----


DP They have examined the problem systematically, they've still taken
pieces of known X capacity, like railways that are going to Iny
that hadn't been operating properly,......... But they haven't
looked at the region in terms of what goods need to be moved where
and what were alternative routes for dohng that and how do you more
efficiently handle it.





page 14


GC We were told in London that they thought this initial period perhaps
3 to 5 years is largely identifying problems and getting them
examined by---and I thought I understood by outside groups, which
would make reports the way....


DP Well, donors are assisting like the Industrialization one, I think
they are using a number of consultants out of Britain to help them
with that.


GC Is that your view-----this is the peridd of the consultancy? I'm
not sure whether I understand whether the consultancy is an internal
or an external ....


DP Well, it's an internal SADCC thing using donors to fund outside
consultants to come in.


GC But the outside consultants are private agents that perform the
job of research?


DP I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If the consultancy is
put up by SADCC they turn to donors for funding. The donors in
turn contract out to private organizations.........


END OF SIDE A


SIPE B


GC So the process is, say on Food Security, that the responsibility
is given by the Council of Ministers to Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe then
sets up the consultancies? or----they identify the nine consultancies


DP They consider 9 components of security in the region.


GC That's what Steve said, nine, but he didn't spell them out, he just
said this Early Warning plan that 6e was working on was one of them
And then they take those consultancies to the donors and the donors
decide whether they are so to speak going to pick them up or bid on
them, or whatever they do, and then they take it out to private
agencies, and the private agencies will report to the donors and the




page 15


donors will come back and tell......


DP The donors pay for it and contract for it on behalf of Zimbabwe
and the consultancies then report back to Zimbabwe directly, the
donors of course get consulted along the way, but it's a Zimbabwe
product after that. The way it will work I'm sure is if the EEC
is doing a study on storage, I think they're the ones doing it,
they may be the ones most interested in doing Storage later on as
a project.


GC So you may have a study before you have an acceptance by a donor.


DP You don't have an acceptance at all by donors until you have concrete
proposals.


GC So we just say, well, we think we'd be interested in this


DP Or it's an area of expertise for us. We bid on Early Warning because
we thought that American satellite technology was the better approach.


GC Is that being used?


DP No in rejecting that 9fter we'd started on it, they turned to FAO
and FAO has its own approach which is
We have serious problems with that in other countries so we're not
very happy about it.


CR What type of problems do you have with that?


DP We don't think its particularly accurate way of doing it.


CR The story overheard in Tanzania was that it seems to have worked.


DP Well it seems to have worked and it's operated by expatria- that
feed into the FAO system in Rome and we're not sure that's the
sort of tool that southern Africa needs. We also thought that the
start on satellite technology in terms of Early Warning systems




page 16


they can take it on to many other things in the region. As long
as you can create that capability within the region...

GC Does Kenya use it, say with the staellite

DP They have their own regional system----uses the earth system.
They have a regional center set up there for using earth satellite
imagery.


GC Would you be able to put up a satellite for the......

DP Yes, probably provide access to the informational satellite. Right
now the imagery for southern Africa goes through a satellite
reception station in South Africa and that creates some political
problems. We may even have to put up another dish in the area
to collect it or send it down from Rome where there is an inter-
national office run by the US.


GC And on the other hand, you were saying that the planning, the
overall planning, is taking South Africa into account----the
American overall plan.


DP Well, our plans----and I also see the problem. We have to maintain
a very correct distinction between South Africa and the rest of the
region. What we'd like to see is quicker changes in S. Africa, but
if you had a majority rule government in S. Africa tomorrow, you'd
have the same economic problem of S. African economic domination
of the rest of the region which we theorize +( is not healthy for
either S. Africa or the rest of the region. The very powerful
economy in S. Africa is meaningless if you have economic desolation
along the borders and a political instability.

CR What's your relationship then with country directors to aid
other SADCC countries, are they rather tense, because you've got
money to play with..... and do they come to you then...


They have money to play with too....




page 17


CR But yours is a new pd(t that's been created.


DP Well, it's not so new anymore, but it's another pot that can be
spent in their country.


CR Do they come to you then?


DP By and large, no. I have one who is trying to do that now and I'm
resisting. I've told them they're trying to create a regional silk
purse oue of a bilateral sow's ear because it really doesn't have
any high priority in a regional sense, but they want funding for it
and they don't have it in their own programs and they're trying to
make it a regional project.


GC That's not the Ring Road in Lesotho?


DP No, we finally funded the last of that this year.


GC I gathered that


CR We being Lesotho or Southern Africa?


DP It comes out of the Regional Southern Africa Program, that was
because there was no SADCC when Congress created the Southern
Africa Regional program.


CR How do you identify projects that the Regional office will fund in
other countries?


DP Well, I try to wait for SADCC to come up with it, but in this other
case of management manpower training, I tried to come up with the
idea myself. Now that was just a fluke that I think now there is a
capability for doing that, there wasn't anything going on, but a
country itself might be able to come directly to me and there might
be cases where I won't do necessarily SADCC projects but do something
that makes sense in the regions.




page 18


CR So the EEC and Portugal also have regional offices here.


DP The Ambassador of Portugal has responsibility from his government
to monitor ZADCC operations. They were invited to Blantyre for
the first time
taking place between Angola and Mozambique and Portugal, that is
part of it. He's got some funds which he's willing to spend in
the region. But he's just incidental, he happens to be here and
he has that responsibility. He has a regional office here and he
has a regional pot of money. They also have a bilateral office
here.


CR Does the EEC then wait, do the same thing that you do, wait for
SADCC to come up with things and then fund...


DP They look at the SADCC proposals and then......they had $70 million
to commit and I think that they've now got it almost all committed.


CR That's quite a hefty amount. It seems basically the US and EEC
which have regional operations in the area which are funding through
SADCC....


DP There are other countries which have regional money which they fund
through SADCC too, but they don't have anyone stationed down here.
Britain has some money, 10 million pounds I think they've committed
which will be used for some studies in Mozambique....the railroad.


GC You mentioned Portugal, but that's more like the British isn't it?


Dp The Portuguese are providing some assistance too, but very small.
GC They don't have a regional office.
DP Just the fact that the Ambassador has regional responsibilities.
They're not a great aid country
GC I'm surprised that they're providing any of it.
DP Because they're interested in getting active in the region. They
have a lot of expertise in those two countries. A lot of the
people who have recently served there would be willing to go back
in an advisory capacity and they're trying to establish linkages
between the countries. Portugal runs the rabora Basa Dam. It's
responsible for all costs associated with it. When the MRFPblows




page 19


up the pilons and cuts off the power it still costs Portugal $4 million
a month of interest payments, because their contract requires that
they run the business on a profit and pay the debts off.
GC I didn't realize they were that much involved...
DP They've provided $120 million in credits to Mozambique this past
year.
GC That's very impressive. Mostly for Camora Basa?
DP No, it's commercial credit for imports from Portugal...
GC To keep the lines of trade running in that direction....

CR To what extent does Portugal then pressure S. Africa to ultt
funding the MRS?
DP How much pressure can Portugal exert on S. Africa?

CR I assume they've been active in that area, or is that just a moot
point whether they're active or not.
DP I really don't know and if you asked me if the US had been active
andjpressuring S. Africa to stop it I couldn't tell you yes or no,
I would hope yes, but there's no evidence.
GC It makes it sound very slow then, doesn't it? And I suppose that's
necessary if it's going to be built up...
DP /But if it's too slow you lose momentum.
CR The carrot at the end of it doesn't actually seem to be a carrot.
You get the finding of the consultanties done, you get the projects
identified and you get some sort of organization set up to administer
this and that is an enormous burden on this country that is blessed
with this new organization.
DP Well, you do create an organization but there are other ways of
doing regional approaches. Essentially regional approaches really
Jare planning together so that you're not doing redundant investments,
so that you're making maximum use of the facilities in the region.
But you don't build a school here and a schooldhere and each one
puts 20 in where you could have built one school which could have
held 40 without any extra cost or only marginal increase in cost
for the buildings and staff. And there's also in the region the
network of people working in the same area. Ag research is going
on in all countries in southern Africa, but I'll bet you can't find
j more than maybe two researchers in different countries that are
talking to each other on a consistent basis. Think of the waste
there if they're both working on soy bean research and there's
no communication or no sharing of information.





page 20


GC Is that actual or is this an example of what might happen?
DP It's an example I think of what is happening in the region. You
could just look around and you know how much information exists
on development and you know how much each of these countries is
doing on development, both successfully and unsuccessfully, but
V even among the aid missions we don't trade information back and
forth on a very consistent basis, so you don't learn from others.
One activity SADCC is considering in May will be the establishment
of a regional information data collection system, which will inter-
link with national information data systems with a computer hookup
in a central repository of information.
GC It will be connected with SADCC's?
DP 'Well it will take over SADCC's. SADCC's is going out of business.v
GC Is it? A pity, or mayby it isn't a pity if they're going to use
something else
DP I think SADCC's had come to the point where Southern Africans
themselves would do it. It was also supposed to become a commercial
venture and pay for itself andit hasn't.
GC So they're going to close that office, are they?
DP Well, the contract ends the end of May and we're trying to get an
extension for a year to give them time to give advice to South
Africa in setting up its system and to transfer over their resources.
GC But it would be very useful if it's available to the US under easy
terms....That's been one of the great advantages of SADCC.
DP Well, they'll have to have some correspondent relationship, for
instance I think S 's has had a relationship whereby they
were the US distributer for PADIS That's broken off now.
GC What is PADIS ?
DP That's the ECA's sponsored Pan-African Development Information System
which I don't find very useful. Southern Africans don't find it very
useful. There's some dispute about how they'll interlink together.
GC But if SADCC's ends then it goes back to the other one...
DP Do you mean the distribution? Yes, PADIS will have to do ts own,
or find some other organization to,do it. I should thinkAAfrica~-
Bibliographic Center will continue existence.
GC Well that's probably what will take it over, it could go through
there




page 21


CR Is that going to be one of the main functions of the Secretariate
simply to provide information....
DP The Secretariate as I understand it is simply a paper pushing
organization to prepare for the meetings and to make sure that
communications are well in hand, which they aren't now.
CR Communications about the meetings or/.....
DP Yes, and about any other information they need to spread. Quite
often for instance Angola doesn't show up for a number of meetings
because they never receive the: invitation.
CR So it's going to be simply a technical thing of greasing the wheels
so that you can come to meet and get something done.
GC They've said in a general sort of way that Botwwana has been
running a SecEetariate but it hasn't been.
DP Well, it had responsibility for this but it's just iiitx like
here, it's been somebody who has another job and I think the main
mover in all this has been Tim Sheh/ over at the
GC I see, all the way through........ Because I talked to him this
morning and he said he was on vacation and would have hots of time
and I said we'd come to dinner and he said he'd consult his wife
and see if she wants to bring you to our house. So that's where
it ended at that point....
DP You're writing on SADCC? It may be important to get down on paper
the role of this Liaison committee and how they pressured this thing
into existence. And of course it's now Southern Africa initiative
in fact there are other moving forces.
GC There's something on this in that original volume, you know you've
seen SADCC I and SADCC II, they were paperback...
DP I think I have SADCC II
CR Edited by Amon and S
GC We saw him in Dar es Spliam and he's gone back to his banking
business. There's this kind of uneasy relationship isn't it
between what actually happened and What...the appearance of what
they were on to...
DP There was a midwife but nobody wants to admit it....The midwife
herself doesn't want to admit it. There is a baby but it isn't
very healthy right now
GC Do you think things could have gone better and faster?




page 22


DP Well I'm not sure. I always hate to guess after the fact. Maybe
they need to feel their way along. If they created something too
fast it might not work and there are a lot of differences among
the southern Africans. One advantage I think they have over other
organizations is an external genesis to fight against this creative
tension....
GC It's true of course and you're absolutely right on the other hand
that they can't be separated but it is an incentive to hold them
together.
DP Well, we'll keep them on course and it also I think has helped
them identify economic problems that they commonly share, which
is the extreme dependency on trade, that is trade in which they
ship out very .vulnerable products and import products wiich are
becoming more expensive.
GC Of course S. Africa is a place they can get in trouble quickly.
DP I don't think there's anything wrong in either of them doing that
it's just that in the future they need to be able to product
some products of their own which they can sell in turn to South
Africa. You don't create jobs until you have processing industries
tied in with your primary product production whether its minerals
or agricultural products.
GC It isn't very far advanced here.
DP Well, quite far advanced I think, but for external markets, no,
they haven't got that yet. Vas reading gain just the other
day the Bsd- study for the bank, an important statistic he points
out in there is between 1886 and 1936 40% of the investment went
X into Africa from private hands went to South Africa, 18% went to
Zimbabwe and Zambia. I thought that was an interesting perspective
on Africa and on the region as well because you have this arrow
GC It's a very interesting document. They make a lot about currency.
levels and inflated currency levels, lack of support for agriculture
and over emphasis on manufacturing equipment.....Are you feeding these
ideas through again through SADCC?
DP I think so. I think these governments can hook up their economies
without realizing that. They've come to the end of the road....
wh e is there to go to now. They're trapped. They can't grow in
the present way their structure',of the economy exists. They've
come to that realization. I think Zambia is almost an indication
of the end of the line. As long as is there everything
is still a little steady, but if he wen away you'd just have chaos




page 23


there's just no way out of it. That's the end of this whole
economic structure.
GC I felt worse about Zambia than I did about Tanzania....
DP Zambia had the resources and squandered them...
GC Tanzania never had them.
CR To what extent do you thinkpersonality tensions between KuAg,
and Mugabe and other heads of state in SADCC are going create
problems or are they going to be transcended because of creative
tension of South Africa.
DP I don't think they are transcended by them. That's why I think
thaecreative tension is important. It keeps these people talking
to each other and working together...I'm not sure how deep the
tension is. Their political leaders behind closed doors are very
practical people.
CR There's one other cynical approach that the longer S. Africa stys
white the better for SADCC because it would keep them unified maybe
get the organization off the ground.
DP Well, there's not&igg wrong with that view, that's entirely correct.
It's one you never like to write down because in a way it sort of
condozl the continuation of the situation in S. Africa, but you
know while the whites control they provide a better catalyst, blacks
in control don't change the situation. These countries are still
very much tied inwhat happens in that economy but it's also
important to keep in mind that they are equally tied to what
happens in the economy outside the region. S. Africa isn't the
only influence on this region.
GC You've got a while series of other influences, but I suppose they're
suffering the way everybody's suffering from the downswing in the
American economy and what's happening in Europe...
DP J A region whotS products are dependent upon people who are willing
to buy them, when demand goes down the price goes down.....
GC Has it been a tough year for you?
DP It's frustrating.
GC Did you come expecting it to be clearer?
DP I came not knowing very much about S.outhern Africa and I guess
the more I've been here the more I dig into the bottom of the
barrel and f&nd out where the problems are.... ac-n ..d.a. a




page 24


and now I've got a better sense of the whole region that I did
before.
GC Is it Transport that is crucial, the sort of one big underpinning.
DP If I had to identify a sector which was crucial, I'd pick manpower.
GC That's interesting. Why did they give that to Cs zJ4V then?
DP They've asked that questions themselves. But development is never
going to work. You can build all the raads and railroads you
want but if you don't have people to maintain them....
CR I guess it's the most difficult thing to achieve because it's so
intangible. You build a road and you can say there's a road and
by @od we've got something, but you train people and you can't
point to something and say...
DP It's a cumulative effect, but you can't identify---and it's also
not just training them, because you can give somebody ay PHD in
something but until they've worked in that area for 10 years they're
not really qualified. You look at where this region started with
independence, for some 20 ears ago......with college
graduates and 4 Zambians in high positions and 25 at the secondary
level. Twenty years is not a long time to handle problems in an
economy if you have the manpower, but if you don't have it...
The Reagan administration keeps pointing to the private sector 8
is kind of foolish too becauseyprivate sector doesn't function
without manpower...
CR And who trains the manpower, I mean the private sector does to
some extent but the basis is provided by the public sector------
It has so far for me anyway---
DP I think Transport's a transitory thing. It's something this region
needs to rehabilitate and maybe expand...
GC Right, but it's something concrete that everybody can concentrate
on and you see it on a map. That's one of the biggest advantages;
you can chart it out. The others are more intangible...
DP More intangible, but more pervasive.
CR Look at Tazaryou build a railroad and you could look at it on
the map and you go on the train and it broke and nobody knew how
to fix it.... t
GC Well, not quite, but it I was think in terms of
giving them one sort of concrete overall thing that they can





page 25


point to....we need to have this connection, etc., whereas Food
Security is going to always be dependent on, to some degree on
w1ither......and manpower.....it's a very long slow process.
DP ( Development has to be a long, slow process. If you don't look at
it in those terms you're being very foolish.
GC And it's not just building up the educational institutions, it's
making young people aware of what the different aspects of the
economy are. I was just reading these bits from this Women's
Report where they've been going through the rural areas and asking
them what they think and what they need, etc. Some of the responses
are really extremely m I mean here's just this enormous
volumIw ho ve been just kept out of this whole matter of going
beyond the daily scratching away of the soil and bearing children...
far too many...that's what they say too...
GC It's amazing what happens when you ask someone, What do you need?
They generally have a pretty clear idea of what it is.
DP X There's always been a native intelligence in peasant areas in any
country in history and they're closer to life....
CR The same holds true in America, if you want to look at the police
services, ask the man on the street where do you think the police
need to be and he could probably tell you...
GC What can you help us with in terms of material? We have all these
pre reports which are staggering.
DP Actually material on SADCC, I have very little....There hasn't been
a lot written about it...
GC You're in the process of writing this coordinating...
DP I'm writing the strategy document, but that will only have one
small section on SADCC. It's really going to be descriptive, not
analytical...
CR One question while it's on my mind----a thing by D'ucAU Clark
on dependency in Southern Africa.....interdependence.......how is
that going to be available?
DP I can't tell you at this point...I'm not sure whether it will be
incorporated as a section in the paper or an appendix or just a
source document. I have to see it first, that's why I-m going up
to Geneva.....They are public in the sense that if you want a copy
I can give it to you....non-classified



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