Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
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Title: Transcripts of interviews conducted by Gwendolen M. Carter, 1972-1985
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Creator: Carter, Gwendolen M.
Publication Date: 1972
Copyright Date: 1972
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Dr. Willem Kleynhans, Professor of
Political Science, University of South
Africa, Pretoria Dan Simpson, and
Gwendolen Carter, 222 Lake St.,
October 14, 1972


GMC In South Africa in particular, the African organizations or the black organizations

like SASo and the Black People's Organization what do you see of their actions and

their potentiality.

K Well I think what has to be watched in the near future and can develop into a

major instrument of change in South Africa is how the Africans in the homeland, the
use
alrnaranaand Buthelezi's, how effectively they are going to kb the instruments

created by the Nationalist government.

GMC This is one of the lines, exploitation of government.

K How effectively are they going to use those instruments. Are they going to use

them as effectively as the Afrikaners use political parties to improve their position
Because
from underdog to be in control of South Africantoday? The National party sort of bans

PAC, ANC, and of course, locked up all the so-called extremists and created in its

place separate development in 1959,-'60 Bantustans gave them westernized, West-

minster types of government with political parties the lot. So they axaxhave
those kayx;;x kkihx
instruments at their disposal to use because 1ikkxyxkax political parties are instru-

ments that they can use.ore than half of the voters of the Transkei and the Aiskei
So-e-OI OD
and all the other homelands live in white South Africa -SVasc> when there is an
C_
election as is now the case in the Aiskei those candidates standing for Parliament

in the Atskei had to come to Sjwet6 and 4emadeedi and

conduct their campaigns. And to be able to get support they must make promises and

jqe promises, I expect, to A4. on=~e- prem-i-'etfm to talk to the white government

to remove injustices, to improve their positions, to make life more bearable for

them. Thy will be because various parties will compete in these elections and in

order to get votes, they will have to make promises and arkax I think this is what's

going to happen. They're going to use these homeland governments and the political

parties that they've established to make promises Mi in exchange to get their votes.










GMC But has the Aiskei got a political party, because Zululand has not yet.

Buthelezi doesn't approve of them.
multi
K But whether it is a one-party or a two-party or a tkxam-party xyxftm situation,

. . they're going to establish political parties and then they will have platforms.

GMC Like the Transket one.

S case of the Transkei, case of the (iskei.

K Before I left, there was some talk of it. But whether it's a one party-state or

two party .

GMC Somebody has got to say something.

K Exactly. But whether they havepolitical parties,,af they are now spokesmen to

voice the feelings of their people.

GMC But do you think that can have any effect1and in what way can it have an effect

when whatever limited administrative responsibilities they have in those territories

are remote from the centers of the white population?
C
K Surely, the voters of the Transkei and the iskei and these homelands, these

voters who live in the so-called white South Africa, they will have something to say.
\AO amak- 5,y
to the candidatesA soli6esing thets and looking for their support. And they will

have something to say about their circumstances and working conditions and what they

feel are injustices, about the situation in the Because they're

not concerned about Aka what the situation is in

that's why they won't vote for them If Buthelezi and c

can't do something for them . .

GMC But what can they do? With the best will in the world, what can they do?

K But the government has created these platforms and Buthelezi has already put some

life into s L

^-~ I& ^_ <. -r- J ~ l/~--







Because Buthelezi is trying to establish the prestige, a sort of sovereign indepen-

dent state that/9k47tZ/A is not establishing. So 24 t- and Buthelezi

are in competition to be the first to establish a so-called sovereign independent

state and to be handed over for the sort of stipulated in the. .

GMC But do you really believe that a) that the government would do it if they

asked, though they say they would and b) that they can as long as they are kept

in these various divided situations in which they only have parcels of land and not

consolidated ones?

K I feel that the mere fatt that these African spokesman are using these strong

languages is already frightening the whites.

GMC Will that be good?

K I think that it was ium stupid and never to expect what the implications of the

1959 and 1960 sort of independent homelands idea wikk was all about. I

sincerely believe that they were so stupid as to think that those sort of more

sophisticated instruments to keep a in his place and

thought that he would be able to control the timetable.

GMC But you don't think he can? and you don't think that it can be controlled?

K This is the way I feel. The whites will try to control the timetable but the

blacks have an important role to perform in this process. There are platforms and

if they're going to use it and I think thefAre ace__ Se that Buthelezi

is going to use it, a confrontation is going to develop, no doubt about it.

GMC But Buthelezi himself says Matamzina is out until they get consolidated

territories with some outlet in thPB e L

K Now you've touched on a very important point. They <--c#&- t,







iy ^ 6r !f Z '








S But what if the government doesn't give them the land?

K But my friend. I believe that . .

S What can they do?

K I believe a confrontation is going to develop.

GMC But, what kind of a confrontation, this is what I . .

K Well, I wouldn't like to speculate about that but if the Africans, the

Buthelezis, the leaders of the homelands, if they're not going to use these

instruments, then they deserve to be.

GMC You mean, if they did it together jointly that it would exert more pressure?

K Well, they ats need not join their forces but individually each and every

Bantu homeland can make the and put pressure on the government to

grant them more land, to give them Port St. John and and to allow

them to get foreign capital to develop their homeland. If they apply pressure . .

GMC What pressure? will influence Vervoerd. I mean, suppose you were Buthelezi,

what would you do, how could you exert pressure? Do you make speeches, you mobilize

kkax support, you go to SWeto and you get enormous response and get your people behind

you and the government says to you, "Well I won't." What do you do then?

K When we reach that state. .

GMC We're there, aren't we?

K We need to do enough to lead to some development, there's no doubt about that.

But the fxxtgxsaag fact that they are using. . what in effect we have today, is

legalized agitation.

GMC That, I think, is a good phrase. I don't know,

K Perhaps the language they use is not as strong as in the days of the ANC,

but it's nearing the state where it's as frightening to the whites.

GMC You think it's frightening, really.

K It's already among government supporters.

GMC To shut them up.

K Yes, SASO and all that. I said to them, these are the natural outg ASs







GMC Of course.

K of separate development, of separate nationalism, and you have to accept this.

Didn't you use your brains and your common sense in 1959 when you backed one election

after another, backed the government, in these. Because you know this is interesting.

In 19 I think it was the last of January or the first of February in 1959 when

Vervoerd in Cape Town made that speech. I was with Professor

in this study. 5:00, I remember, when there was a special broadcast about this

statement. And I said that very day, even in my diary I sort of made notes to the

effect I said to Professor Well, one day the Bantu are going to

use these instruments because the natural thing for them is to establish political

parties for their self-government, for their self-rule or parliaments, etc. and those

can be used as levers. Today they're using those platforms created by the government

for them to sort of improve their position but at the time, what the government

thought in 1958 because then they still thought that the to which the

homelands would one day become a reality. And of course all the Bantu and in sizeable

numbers would be in the homelands. But they never thought that they would be confronted
majority
with a situation where the xaRxic would be not sojourners but permanent inhabitants.

GMC Of the so-called white areas?

K But the initiative for change in South Africa depends a lot on what the blacks

do about the powers that separate homelands and separate developments and independent

Bantustans provide them, how effectively they can use them. But the mere fact that

they talk in these strong terms, strong language really . .

GMC I guess Buthelezi speaks it at least. I don't ki think Matamzima says very

much except that he .

K Yes, but he will be a because otherwise whats-his-name will

in establishing a and there's competition not within these

homelands, but among the aspiring politicians and also between homelands. Because the

national party created a sort of a variety of nationalisms ali competing with each

other. Not black nationalismsamong themselves but white and black nationalism, So

this is .









KMG Do you see that the Bantustans are acquiring an ethnic identity exclusively

or do you see that they're acquiring an African identity?

K Well, this is difficult . .

GMC Because I think with Buthelezi it's African rather than Zulu, as well as Zulu.

K This is a point. They must be very careful and not to tie in, because then they

would provide the government with an opportunity to squash them, if they plan to

create an African sort of bloc. They must use their individual homelands as platforms

and not to try and bridge these . .

GMc But Buthelezi says they vote for me and cheer for me not as a Zulu but because

I'm an African leader. And that seems to me his strength. But he's not dividing Zulu

from Xhosa.

K But then, they're looking for trouble. I think they should use a separate platform.

GMC But then they allow themselves to be subdivided because surely their strength

is their numbers.

K Yes, but if four or five homeland governments speak out day after day, they

create an atmosphere that would lead to pressure within the camp,

and who can tell what will come out of that. It will in any case, I think, disturb

the situation in South Africa.

GMC Do you really?

K And out of that, something new.
but
GMC You put this first, tkha most people, I think, would put SASO and the black

people's convention. You don't think that tkRxa they rank.

K No, because the government is already sort of a most dangerous, but I thin k that the

leaders of SASO, they haven't got enough experience in they're missing their own . .

GMC They did a good thing with that boycott.
I/in
K Exactly, but it lost its impetus. But ey watching the homeland governments and

the electionSand the political parties and their activities and how these spokesmen of

these political parties and the Ministers and the Chief-Ministers, how they use*the

platforms. Because, separate development the Bantustan policy provided them with








platforms and they're using it. I mean, if they're going to keep this up, it's going

to, in some direction or another, it's going to cause some. . I wouldn't like to say

what particular form, but that is going to create a situation where something will

happen. There's no doubt. And since the government is pushing this soverign

independence aspect quite a bit, to grant them sovereign independence, but it will be

empty shells, because from an economic point of view, those areas have very little, if

anything at all.. It will be political independence,

GMC but economic suicide..

K Exactly. So they will be fools if they accept sovereign independence.

GMC Well, that's what they're saying that they won't accept it unless they get a

reasonable amount of land.

K But, can you imagine if there's a debate about the land issue, it has to lead

to something of change in RmmatkiR South Africa.

GMC But does it? Now let's say that the government has imposed a land settlement.

In that issue of the Star the crowds who went there to talk to Buthelezi were

absolutely appalled that /hef had never been consulted. But he says this quite

frankly, that nobody ever asked him, nobody ever took his advice, and nobody ever

listens to him.

K But the fact that, for the first time since those organizations were banned,

we have black -white debate accusations being made over the floor.

There's some impact in it. I wouldn't like to express in what forms or the effett

that we have in debate and with strong language being used over the floor, is going

to loosen up public opinion among whites, blacks, and should lead to some sort of a

development.

GMC What kind of reactions do you see, for instance, in your contacts in Afrikanerdom

or English-speaking and so on. Do you see that the political parties that youthe

concerned with, the white political parties, are taking these developments seriously at

all.

K You mean, do you think in terms of certain ~judgments- and changes in the attitudes?








GMC The traditional South African whites thinks that the Africans are somebody

off there, who probably brings his morning tea, but on the other hand, ought to keep

qgite quiet and not interfere. These funny Bantustans, fortunately they're so far

away we don't need to bother about them. Has that changed?

K The number of so-called and English-speakers,
to speak out,
the number is still very limited. A few have the courage of their convictions, the

others are just . So, I'm afraid in that respect there is no sort of movement one

way or another sort of remain silent. It does not help as to

try and move people

direction. These people sort of remain silent and are scared to do something. I'm

afraid in that respect the number is very limited. And the

party, with Colin Eglin, after 18 months, Hax I attended the National Congress too
I left and
in Pretoria before, after 18 months and you know he went out of his way to pull in

Afrikaner, but there was no visible sign. The Congress., the few Afrikaners, Vo/rster

would say, anglicized Afrikaners. There were four or five of them after this all-

out campaign by Colin to established a so-called
As I sort of
and to pull in the left Afrikaner support. A see it, did not succeed, because there
7
was a conferencee. Was that also reported in The Star. What about this. *
n the 10th academics
of August a closed conference of about 40 Afrikanerf~nd the Progressive party
there was
convene a closed conference in Pretoria. They invited about 40 (rcfAe es

J.'







GMC I didn't hear about that.

K I attended that too. and by
and Helen Suzman
Colin to get a frank discussion of the Progressive Party's platform and they asked

us to What we think of the platform and where

we think they should make changes, etc. It was not meant as a sort of

thing

GMC No, but to get ideas . .

K But at the end, on a Saturday afternoon, there was an opportunity for the academics

to, well sort of, commit themselves and only one. I think he was a young Afi-Can from

Cape Town, stood up and sort of expressed his feelings that he had fax sort of seen the

light now and that he was going to join in the Progeessive Party. But all the other

academics nobody moved a finger. So not even the Afrikaner academics were certain.

Liberal like myself are prepared to join the Progressive Party but

GMC There are liberal Afrikaners like you who feel that the Bantustans have a

significant role within South Africa, or wre there? Are you unique, or ere there

others?

K The situation hasn't changed in South Africa, as you expressed when you said

isn't it terrible. And our government see about the Professor of Sociology
has issued a statement that
at Cape Town University who kadxxxkaxxkatikxkxaxxaxatiaE that he was comigg back to

Canada again a position. He was in Canada then he went to .

GMC That's right, what was his name again?

K Jan kmkxsKkKx Llubser. then he went

to Cape Town. And he was also involved in the student demonstrations and I think he

conducted a campaign through the of the B,~rgoer.

GMC He's Afrikaner.

K Yes, exactly. He attacked the church and the establishment, and the Bgrgler

provided quite a lot of space for his leaders and other leaders who felt as also, you

know, that they had something to contribute. And when I was in New York and I saw in

the paper intention to . .~ L-Lee 7-

-C4 (- r t







But I think that's wrong, because if all of us sort of leave South Africa

When he took out for Canadian citizenship

but he can forget ever to come back again. So I think that's wrong if the few who

have the courage to speak out should also pack up and go. But I still feel that if
soon a.
change is to come in South Africa the Africans are the ones who must do it, even if

it's only first a debate, getting more and more intense. I think something will

dev elop, but it's difficult to say in what way. But KaRXKexxaiRaRa x conversation,

dailogue economic developments of the homelands, more powers for homeland govern-

ment and I think these; Buthelezi and others, will sooner or later touch on the

wakxx working conditions L2/~ L/-L

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^^U tsfc c (z!--yC-<^^L-- (i'Let- 'Z/^-LC e








But I think that's wrong, because if all of us sort of leave South Africa

When he took out for Canadian citi-

zenship but he can forget ever to come back again. So I think that's wrong if

the few who have the courage to speak out should also pack up and go. But I

still feel that if change is to come in South Africa soon the Africans are the

ones who must do it, even if it's only first a debate, getting more and more

intense. I think something will develop, but it's difficult to say in what way.

But conversation, dialogue, economic developments of the homelands, more powers

for homeland government and I think these, Buthelezi and others, will sooner

or later touch on the working conditions, housing, injustices that are sort of

committed to which they're bound to living in White South Africa. Because those

Bantu carry citizen documents of Buthelezi and Matazima. They have to concern

themselves with...

And I think they do as a matter of fact.

K The fact that we had this debate and the strong language that was used is

significant.

GMC You think it's a stirring up of people's ideas? You think people listen?

K But it's going to have some effect of loosening up traditional ways of think-

ing. And the blacks have a lot to contribute to its change. I would like

to put it in those terms.

GMC Do you see any prospect that this black People's Organization can have any

effect?

K Which one?

GMC This Drake Kka, this one that was founded sort of officially in December

at theScweto meeting and that had the preliminaries before. They call it the

Black People's Organization.

K- From what was reported in the press, the impression I gained was that it was

not a dynamic platform.

GMC I think not. I don't know whether it's developing.








K What was reported in the press, I think, two or three cuttings, and I was

especially for that, and I think that, up to the 31st of August, I hadn't seen

very much. I attended, occasionally, the Urban Bantu Council Meetings in

Sweto. They are so frustrated, with good reason, that they can't find a

quorum. Every second meeting is without a quorum. So they boycott these

meetings, they mean nothing with advisory powers. They just sit there like the

Cape Coloured council. The Cape Coloured become very vociferous now and

so that talking that they are doing,

African Coloured, is going to bring about some changes for the better.

I have a feeling that it's going to contribute to a change of...

GMC But that's more faith than works yet?

K- I was going to lead to that.

GMC But I don't want you to underestimate it.

K For 10 years, since these organizations began, there was nothing.

GMC- That's what they told me that there had been a desert in~etween. And

now it's actually operating.

K And the Janguages are whooo. It's much different to the languages that the

ANC and PAC platforms produced.

GMC- And you think they're getting the response among the Africans and the

others, the Coloureds. They told me there wasn't much political consciousness

but they were trying to stir it up. Is that your impression?

K Of course it will take tiie because it's new--political parties and campaigning--

that's new to them.



SIDE II

GMC That it's happening.

K They have legalized platforms and are using them for ... because they do not

have the respect that Matazima displayed initially.

GMC What did you see as the impact of these white student demonstrations in





12


St. George's and Johannesburg and the police repression?

K It's a waste of effort. They should join United or Progressive Party and

work within the system, because they're just playing into the hands of the

government. Then the government has an opportunity to demonstrate its forceful-

ness to get control.

GMC Now, Van Wyk told me he thought it had created a situation in which English-

speaking and Afrikaans were further apart, more divided, more bitter, the English-

speaking, than they had been since 1948. Would you agree?

K- No, because the Afrikaans students at Cape Town --

GMC It was the parents who said, "we're so bitter at the treatment that the

police gave the youngsters."

K The parents of the English students?

GMC Right. They're so bitter at what the police had done that he said it made

a new basis of division between English-speaking and Afrikaans.



K But this is not new. This started in 1970, the general election, the parting

of the ways. Since 1966, the Albany by-election, since 1969, that was the

first by-election in a predominantly English area, and the government expected

them to improve its position by 1,000 and then it dropped and that was the first

indication to me that English-speaking those that followed Vervkerd were sort

of turning to their traditional political home, the United Party. In the '70

general election Natal went en masse for the United Party and since them, follow-

ing the traditional lines of the past, predominantly the United Party are pre-

dominantly the English Party and the Nationalist Party are predominantly

Afrikaaner.

GMC What about the old Afrikaners? Are they thoroughly in the Nats

now?

K The old Smuts? They are lukewarm United Party supporters. They

Cherish those sentiments, its the older people. But the United Party is running








dryer every day over Afkikaner support and that if and his young radicals

are going to make it more difficult for the Afrikaners to accept him and his

radicals, this will worsen the position in the United Party as far as Afrikaners.

GMC In what sense do you call them radical? They're not radical on race

relations are they?

K They're more liberal. The supporters who helped organize their campaign are

young English c ps. The few liberals in South Africa are English.

GMC But the best liberals are usually Afrikaner, aren't they?

K They are afraid to express their views.

GMC What do the young English-speaking want? Do they want more political

rights, or just eased apartheid or something more fior the Bantustans? Have they

thought of anything?

K- I don't think they've tried to spell it out in more detail. What I'm afraid

of is they may introduce campaign tactics like thelorch Commandr had done,

will frighten the people -- something that does not fit into their political

culture. What happened on that Friday and that Saturday -- the interest was very

short-lived. They were keen because they were part of a machine to get some-

body elected, but not to work toward fulfillment of a long-term political goal

with all its hard field work, the tears and sweat. When they elected -Lt 2

on Saturday there was no excitement left. Judging from the volume of cuttings

that I read having a bearing on these homelands, oh. When Matima or Buthelezi

says something about more land -- its causing debate. Somewhere

a crack is going to develop.

GMC I'm more skeptical.

S These homelands were created by the Nationalist Party, but I'm wondering

if the fact that it is through an institution created by the whites doesn't mean,

per se, the thing is safe and something that the whites can accept, without really

being concerned -- it's going to change anyway.

K But do you thin (that can ver do away with the Bantustan, because in the eyes
L









of South Africans, if the government is going to move a finger one way or

another to place a damper

GMC Do you think they'd be under such criticism?

K Of course. Because they themselves, from the beginning, held this up as

the successful blueprint, the successful alternative. And now, something is

developing out of this which is scaring them.

S Part of the history of South Africa is "broken promises". Promises that

the whites have made to blacks that aren't kept. Why should one believe that

the Bantustans don't fall into that category and will be allowed to do what they're

doing until they become dangerous, if they ever become dangerous, and I wonder

about that, at which point the white government will say "you know, this thing

has gone too far, they're abusing it, we did not intend it to be this way.

Consequently, the emergency, the urgency of the situation, make it necessary foe

us to suppress them, put them out of business."

K- Well, this made a difference. All the talk about the broken promises has

had a bearing on what the Simuts and governments, non-Nationalist

governments created. They dare not break promises...

GMC That they themselves made.

K They could always, in the past, say that we were not responsible, but this

is something they used to replace outworn or defective etc. They held it ul&

as a successful blueprint.

GMC But do you believe at all fr independence for these territories?


K WeeA, they're pushing it at such a pace that I, as a liberal, am scared

they will grant them sovereign independence too soon, and it may explode. I'm

frightened that the government is really keen to wash their hands.

GMC Like the British did.

K- We can' escape whatever is going to develop, because these homelands are in

the bosom of South Africa, but Britain is 10,000 miles away. We can't escape







the "evil" that may come out.

GMC Ever so often there are real advantages to demanding their independence

now and taking it. They could get all kinds of foreign aid, they would have

all kinds of international diplomats, they would have all kinds of represen-

tation. They could get a lot. On the other hand, what can do

with nine pieces of land? Amd the Transkei would still be largely white,

and group is all over the place.

K Something else. The extent to which the constellation of the labor force

in South Africa is becoming blacker every day is going to have a tremendous

impact.

GMC That impresses more that the Bantustans.

K- Economic determinism may be the element to knock the bottom out of

separate development. Every day more and more Bantu are replacing whites in

jobs reserved for whites.

GMC Is this because the whites don't want to take those jobs?

K It's due to total and absolute shortage of white labour in South Africa.

Not even the immigrants can fill the gaps created by the expanding economy.

The natural thing to do is take in blacks, and the more blacks that are

integrated, the lesser ground for the government. Once they have become

permanent--and we must keep in mind they are citizens of the homeland, they

are voting in elections but living in white South Africa. And they can only

express views about circumstances affecting them in the white South Africa. So

the black politicians have nothing to offer them except to improve their....

S But the black politicians can't offer to improve conditions in white areas.

they have no leverage.

K But promise they will talk to the whites. If they want you to work for them,

they must be able to improve working conditions, wages. There's something else--

black trade unions. I think the Bantu should accept the idea to have black

trade unions in the homelands. Naturally, those unions will be the instruments...







GMC for organizing in the urban areas.

K- For what purpose would you have black trade unions in the Bantu area if

they can't be of any help. Homeland citizens work in the white areas.

S The resistance to forming trade unions is not from the Africans, it's from

the government.

K The government has committed itself that they must form their own trade

unions in the homelands.

S But not with the workers in the urban areas.

K They can use these as instruments to speak for...

GMC If they have a trade union, say can they then use that

to negoNiate on behalf of Zulus in the urban areas?

K All those that work in the coal mines. The black trade unions established

in the homeland have to speak on behalf of the Zulus --the thousands of migrant

laborers.

GMC In Malawi they negotiated better conditions for the Malawians working

in South Africa, But I don't know if any of the BLS countries have or not.

The Swazi's have nearly withdrawn theirs.
& i. AJoLaJOACA&VI
S Lesotho has representative jbs=#e but as far as I know...

GMC But there's noL formal negotiation. In Malawi there is, they showed me

the provisions -- not pushing them out, about wages, about stability and so on--

that they have preferred conditions.

S I think they may finally have committed to paper the status quo.



GMC Well, they said they were better than the conditions under which other

workers from outside were working and that they can't be thrown out of their

job without reference to the local representative. When they go on contract.

Now this is the individual workers in Mr. Jone"s household -- these are the

contract workers in the mines. Most of whom probably have some extra skills.

But this is one of the things they're rather proud of, their relationship, that

the/ve got out of the general run of the mill.
7





17


K It's up to the homeland governments to concern themselves about the lot of

their... and the blacker the labour force in white South Africa becomes, the more

reason for a stronger foothold in economic development and political development

in the homelands. This creates new opportunities for pressure of some kind.

GMC This most recent group that went out, the Advisory Committee from the State

Department, the group I used to be in. They went out and made various proposals

for what the U.S. government, which is committed to exchanges and contacts,

what they should do. And among the things that they thought they should go

into are homelands. They should be supporting technical training, agricultural

schools, give advice on technical assistance int he Bantustans and so on; do you

think this is feasible under present conditions -- that an outside power goes

in to do those kinds of things?

K But then they must get opinions.

GMC They they're free to do this. They said the PM was not against this.

K For a South African to invest and for outsiders, it has to be channeled

through the Bantu r-ge4W erjL.h t according to the conditions

laid down and nobody is keen to accept that. When the Bantustans become

sovereign independents, of course then...

GMC But they checked this out with all of the political parties including

the government and the cabinet and they were not opposed to the idea of

American technical advice.

K But it has to be channeled through: the South African government, through ItkL

development corporation. They committed themselves that within the next 5 years,

three or four will be independent. The next step is sovereign independence.

GMC There's a very nice article in here about them saying that they're

confused because they've been promised independence in '61 and ever time the

government comes and kills cattle and says, "Now you're independent" and they

say "we don't know what the difference is." This is the third time they've done

this now.









K Now think also that the Bantu are also

It's within their power to make their back straight and to stand up. They are

only beginning to sense now the significance of the instruments granted them.

GMC But I still think as long as they are so small, they have no...

S The thing I have a lot of trouble with is both the ideas that companies

or homeland governments represent the workers in their ethnic group and the

second one, that foreign involvement represents, in essence, strengthening

of the Bantustan.

K U.S. business involvement?

GMC They say this mustn't happen but still they make all the provisions.

S They strengthen these institutions, which means that the attempted fraud

has succeeded in a sense that the Africans have been encouraged to channel all

their OripheJr- activities through these Bantustans, who have bee looking away.

K I think it would b a great mistake for America to stop its business

involvement in South Africa.

GMC I just read a very interesting article in The World Today about the

census results of the 1970 census. The proportion of population, if it

continues the way it is, is radically changing so that by 2,000, by present

population trends, the white population will only by 11%. Another thing is

the enormous concentration of Africans just north of the Rand, where so many

of these territories, where they're workers, they're not really Bantustan

types. They're turning them into new Bantustans, but they really are the workers,

and they're within...

K Like where the population will ultimately be 100,000.

GMC Now those people, it seems to me, are the ones who are really significant

in terms of their potential power.

S Don't think for one minute they will channel their political activities

through or








GMC But they are the ones who are to have their own political identity.

K- But those spots -, ,__ I ..... and __, are integral

parts of white South Africa.

GMC But they're being identified as being separate.

K But that idea is short-lived. Soon they will have to conceive the fact

that they have come to stay. More and more people are beginning to

see through all this, that it's absurd to talk of these people as temporary

sojourners.

GMC But let's put up an argument. Either they have to be accepted as

integral parts of the white community and white industrial, or else, if they

are going to be demarcated, as in 1964, they were demarcatiic them as Bantu,

not real homelands but as special territories. If they're going to demarcate

100,000 workers as an African area which has its own control, I think they

are genuinely building up something which has power by giving them a political

organization that they can combine with their economic power. You give them

a chance to organize in a way in which you don't give Zulu, predominant ly

scattered and largely illiterate and impoverished agriculturists.

K An additional hope for change is that in the by-elections, I think the

United party will make progress, with one or two of the seats. It is also

going to contribute to a situation of change. If the government loses one or

more, we're going to have another election soon, next

year.

GMC You think they're so frightened at losing one or more seats?

K If they lose one or two by-elections, they would have to face the fact that

the United Party is on the way up.

GMC Well, then they won't have another election.

K- They!:l1 have a election and concede a further 10 or 15 seats

and still have a safe majority the next fiver years. Only 30 seats have to change

hands and the majority is gone. And changes of government in South Africa







developed over the past 60 years over situations that were created overnight.

Nobody foresaw development, so if the government loses one or two by-elections

it will create a sort of situation of panic. We will have another general

election, they may lose a further 10 to 15 and that might make the situation

favorable for a new realignment.

GMC Do you believe this race conf ration that the UP is talking about? They've

got another big statement on it.

K They announced that just before I left, so I haven't been able to study the

details. This is not a factor in this loosening up of political attachments.

There are large numbers of government supporters who have become too to

conform just to be difficult.

GMC You think it might give an opening to blacks to press their points more?

K An abcess in the political realignment at present will create a ray of hope

for change.

GMC You thknk any kind of change breaks the log-jam, is that it?

K- It may lead to some sort of uncertainty and the uncertainty may lead to

further uncertainty and panic.




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