Title: Interviewee: Ted Smith [ FF 15 ] YEAR OF THE INDIAN II "The Pineland Archaeological Project"
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Title: Interviewee: Ted Smith FF 15 YEAR OF THE INDIAN II "The Pineland Archaeological Project"
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Creator: Interviewer: Corbett Mcp. Torrence (Y.O.I. project Archaeologist)
Publication Date: April 29, 1993
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YEAR OF THE INDIAN II "The Pineland Archaeological Project"

Oral History Interview

Date of Interview: April 29, 1993

Interviewee: Ted Smith

3134 lindwoood Drive

Fort Myers, Florida 32903

813-656-2908

Interviewer: Corbett Mcp. Torrence (Y.O.I. project Archaeologist)

Robert Edic (Y.O.I. Oral Historian)

Place of Interview: Ted Smith house (see above)

Subject of Interview: Memories of the Pineland Archaeological Site; topography,

land use and people

Transcriber: Corbett McP. Torrence

T:This is that benchmark here that you told me about.

S:Yeh. Just about all the surveys on Pine Island was done from that benchmark.

E:That's the benchmark on the top of the Browns Mound.

T:You were telling us about this mound with the benchmark on it. That it was different.

S:Well that mound run to about out to here. It was about as wide as this and as high as this is. -

----. Now lets see, this is the big mound with that house on top of it?

T:Um hum

S:This mound had a --------feet high and rose up as high as this from back in this direction --- I'd

say it ran back to here. There was much shell taken from here as there was from here --

---- I don't now if I told you or not, but that --- that road to Bokeelia----- that rode around

where old Bokeelia road ---- I guess that road was coming around here ---- all of that,










right on around to the Pineland Post office ------. They even had to put boots on the

mules, Mules had to walk this road.-------- All that shell, they had to put boots on the

mules so the spikes ---------- They did part of it in 1926.

T:When they filled this in were they building the Cloisters at that time?

S:---- you know where that picket fence is done there where ----- meditation building is.

E:The Cloisters

S:The Cloisters. Yeh. All of that yard inside the picket fence had about two feet of that conch

shell placed as a base and good dirt on top of it too.---- that up here used a hydraulic

dredge all of that from the road down to that sea wall over that whole area.

T:so when they pumped it, where did they pump it out of?

s:Right in front of that sea wall. Yeh. If you hand me that map. This is that dredge hole. All of

this clear back to this road, this road here, was all mangrove swamp. And a lot of this

out here....

T:AII right so from the --- road to the bay...

S:Had fill. This pond all of this was dredged in here and they just left the pond.

T:O.K. so here is the county road here and the swamp came across the county road here all the

way up into here.

S:way up into here, All of this was swamp and when they pumped it in they left this little lake

there. When Haitte owned the property there was a lot of water in there. Ah there was

something else I was going to tell you about, but I can't think of what it was now. well

you see this shows you the old packing house right there, that long building

T: what about this one here?

S:Yeh. That's probably the packing house. This is the quarters where the help lived.

E: Most of the help were they colored?

S:Colored and white, ah both. The last were half colored, but to start with they had white.










T:Before we leave this section here by the ibis pond in this low area here this little low area here

they just didn't fill this area in so they left this like a drainage coming across here.

S:That was ah... they left this as a ditch. Next to the road here they had flower garden that was

across there.

T:Right. The Royal palms are in here.

S:There was a little house that set here. O.K. that was twice as long as that building set. They

cut it in half and that was... ah Heckle, cut it in half and she put it on one of these

mounds next to the road I don't remember which one

T: Was this like the old Harris cottage?

S:Well yeh. That's back of the old Harris cottage

T:O.K. and the Harris cottage was kind of east of this burial mound kind of up on the platform of

it. Was it up on the ridge area?

S:Let me study it just a minute now. There was two people by the name of Harris that was

involved. This was one of his sister in laws that was in this little house here that sits up

on the ... kind of a platform. You now where the road rides down there there's a garage,

a three place garage behind there. They used to be, I think, it seems to me like they ah

rebuild a little house there ,but I'm not sure --these people that owned this house here on

the corner...who is there? Was Harrison owned that whole thing.

E:How do you spell his name?

S:H-a... wait a minute now. H-a-r-r-i-s-e-n. That's the man that had the Harris typewriter, that

bought all this. It's had about twenty owners. Each one of them tore down something to

do with all of this stuff. This burial mound daddy got to have take a shot gun to them.

Harrisen first tore down some of it and then li guess Inches decided he'd bite off some of

it. Daddy stopped him. And then Wilson went down there and he didn't go and see










daddy he just got down there with his tractor and --scoop up dirt and hauled that dirt

away to put on this out here --- and Daddy put a stop to that.

T:You once told us a story about some brothers who were involved... a couple of young guys

involved, you told me a story about that once. About your dad having to come out

actually physically on the mound...

E:early in the morning

T:Somebody tipped him off or something like that

S:yeh... no he just was the kind of guy who thought out things. Well... what they would do, they

go and dig out stuff, a lot of stuff that you guys could use and they didn't pay attention to

it all. They were looking for gold or jewels or something like that and there wasn't

anything like that. They did, a couple guys got a cross. A gold cross set with diamonds.

You know, that of course, they couldn't come up with much. And this ol' boy who hung

himself he claimed that an indian emulate[?] or whatever come out of this mound.

Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. They say there are other places were things have been

found.

E:And a lot of it turned out not to be real and finding it someplace like that legitimizes it ....

S: Out here where this house stands used to be a big poinciana tree my daddy recovered some

gold coins from under that poinciana tree. I don't think its there any more but I think it ---

it was there when my dad first come to this country.

E:How old do you think those gold coins were, I mean what era do you think they were from.

S:One of them that I know about was in the 14 or 1500's, 1400.

C:O.K. You were telling us also about this section of the site along here. Along the road where

road cuts in along this canal and then it comes around up to the front here.

S:You know where you dug that place along here. Is this the little mound that's along the road?

C:Yes Sir.










S:AII right. From there right along around and joining this mound here was just a low ridge

probably about 15-20 feet high.

EAnd you said that this had a low area between these two mounds?

S: Yes it's still there.

E:Still there? Well we were not sure where that had been.

S:There's a big rubber tree that sites on this into this mound.

EYou think that was a natural feature that little area between there?

S: That's never been changed. The whole thing has been changed all this along here was

scraped back. Was scraped back to fill, because this was low behind here and then they

took dirt from this mound and throwed a lot of it down here. A feller (named) Inches tore

up most of all that stuff that was the last guy to own it before Randell bought it. I Think.

E:And how do you spell his name?

S:Inches?

E:Just how it sounds?

S:Yehuh.

T:What was this area like down in here you mentioned. Don has dug this pond around here and

this area where there quarters was and through in here. What was this like in the early

days? I know it must have been different with this big mound coming out this way too.

S:Oh this back in here. As you can see this right here... even that canal they changed that

around some. Up in the old grove up in here it ah .. I think this was it right here, it had

more crooks in it but they straightened it out. You know that this canal goes all the way

across pine island.

T:You mentioned that there was more ridging in the canal. Like more..

S:Yeh

T:You said that kind of stopped at one point though.










S:Yes where the white mangrove start it had a ridge on each side of it where they chucked the

dirt on it.

T:Do you think that it was smoothed out. The ridge was taken down by people or...

S:I think it just weathered, because I can remember back when the water used to run out of that

when it used to rain real heavy. The water would run out of it off of the island down that

canal of course. I don't know if it's like that today. I don't know that or not.

T: So it went... from what you remember... it was one piece going all the way through?

S:Oh yeh.

T:O.K. Was there anything in the middle like a larger wet area or was it just... I mean... because

this area was a swamp and I'm wondering if it hit this swamp at all or was it...

S:At one time that swamp come originally all the way across to where that low spot come down

through the back here. It's hard for me to remember these things after seventy five or

eighty years.

T: Your doing fabulous. Could you... there is a grove and then it gets low and then it get high

again. That may be later. Was it always? How do remember this front area out here? I

know there was a low spot right here.

S:Well next to the road here. Where this creek is. This your creek here? All right. It come up

here.

T: There is a pond here.

S: Yeh. Used to go across the road and this was low land in here and up almost to the groves.

And along in here there was huge black mangrove trees larger than you ever see today.

They was fifteen twenty inches in diameter and probably 100 feet high. And they where

straight at one time. They were real close together and they grew just... you could

almost ---- up around them. And that's unusual for black mangrove. You know where

the little mound is across the road










T:Yes. So this whole thing all the way back from behind this ridge, all the way up to this grove,

was a real low wet area.

S: Sometimes it was because I can remember when white mangrove grew in scattered

bunches. Used to be a lot of it along here on both sides.

T:And all through here?

S:Yes. It was scattered all the way in bunches. Of course one person after another chopped

down or filled in or messed it up in some way.

T:Wow. This is really terrific!

E:Helped Fill it in a little

S:Well you know you get started in this and one thing brings on another, but these things go so

far back in my memory that I've forgotten a lot of it.

T:Yeh.

E:And rightfully you should have. Well this should make it a little easier maybe trigger off

something when you see them being drawn back in here anyway. How about this

stream? Do you know where that came from?

S:lt comes out right here at the corner. You can see it from the road. Ah what Inches did

there... was always a creek there... but what Inches did was drag line up between what

was our property, used to be our property and his property he dug this pond. A straight

shot up int this pond right here.

E:And then somebody draglined out of the pond up that way to ah...

S:Well that whole --- was natural. Yeh. All of that water. A lot of tides used to rise and fall. You

used to see mullet jumpin' along side the road there years ago.

T:You mentioned last time you used to get a lot of fish out of that time.

S:Yehuh

T:Some branches of the creek used to come up and drain this swamp area up in here?










S:Yeh.

T:Now your place was back up in here somewhere. And how close did the swamp come up to

your place?

S:Oh where the house is? About 600 feet. Now some of that low part went up behind this

mound. It still does. This salt water sand flat... now lets see where... When the

mosquito control come to drain that water out they built.. they cut a canal right around

this mound. That's the burial mound here. It come down here to where our road went

out to the mangrove and then they turned off in here and got into that little place where, I

say about, the big black mangrove was and then inch out to the ---- and they dug out,

they dug the south side of the road all the way to the post office ----just opened it up.

T:Do remember when that was done?

S:Oh probably thirty-five or forty years at least.

T:Behind these benches and the ridges of the canal, in front of this mound, I know you were

saying that used to be more like that, what was this area behind the grove like?

S: Just low saw grass bushes and stuff. Some of that dirt I'm sure came from here. From off

of this mound. Of course behind the mound was this deep depression probably a hundred feet

wide before the mosquito control dug the canal in here and I'm sure that dirt was for that mound.

T:Did water stand back in here?

S:ln the rainy season, yeh.

T:So the swamp came up around the mound and ended near the edge of the mound or did it

encircle it?

S:Well, like I say, the low land coming up behind the mound, in the time I can remember, it was

white buttonwood and stuff growing in there before the mosquito control dug the canal.

You see our old home place come down and abutted the salt water flats down here and

then there was high land all the way down here to -.---










T:Could you actually boat through here?

S:Oh no. --- might of been able to in the early 1900's but that was before my time. Dad used to

bring a pole skiff up in here and leave it. It was a pretty good sized creek in here before

they dug it out.

E:Yeh. I got some mullet out of it the other day from in my canoe. I came in on the high tide. I

came right up to the pond no problem. Scared the duck a little bit.

S:Oh yeh.

T:ls this grove about the size you remember? Was it about this height?

S:Well they cut out some of this. That's where you got that little bit of grove you got left there.

They cut both ends of this off to fill with it. I,m sure.

T:You think where this swamp came around the front... the swamp was kind of natural at this

end but you think from this ah....

S:Well that was swamp too at one time, but like I say, first one fella, then another. Now this,

when wilson owned it... I worked for Wilson for ten years. They owned it. This was all

intact. All of the destruction on these different mounds most of it was done after I ----

T:Even in 1944 it hadn't changed that much compared to what it looked like later.

S:That's pretty much the shape of it you got there now. You see the little spots of sand flat.

That's sand flat in there. There's nothing growing there. Just like these little bare spots

in here. I can remember when that sand flat from the high land to the mangroves

averaged any where from a quarter to three quarters of a mile wide... with nothing on it.

Just pure white sand. Now you know where the pine island road comes off of big pine

island not little pine island, but big pine island. You stand on that road and see either

way for two or three miles. Just pure white sand.

T:There is a little section like this that was all sand right along that edge.

S:Yes. That's beach










T:Yes. That's beach front, so the sand flats where between the mangrove and the dry land?.

S:AII of this along here was extending way out like that.

T:So the creek came along through that sand. Part of the creek came back up in here to that

old post office.

S:lt was sand flat there, yeh. It was beginning to grow back mangrove, white mangroves stuff

like that. In my lifetime all of that has grown up. It shows you how fast...

E:land building

S:Well yeh, and the tide don't rise and fall on it the way it used to. A high spring tide the

minnows used too go up, you could see them running one another up on the white sand.

In fact up to the gate, used to be a gate... lets see this used to be our road up in here

the tide used to ride up to there that was all white sand. --

E:Some of the fishermen say that some of the small unnamed keys out there where just a

couple of mangroves seeds on a oyster bar when they were young.

S:Yup, yup. Well one or two of those little islands like Brant key and Jib island that set off... let's

see now, they'd be southwest of this area where... Shell mounds there were actually

started by the indians or the Calusa when the tide was way out in the gulf. You see, the

tide or water was way miles out in the gulf. A lot of people don't believe that.

E:That's what we're finding out.

S:There's one thing that will prove that a lot of this stuff was built while the land was dry.

There's Useppa, Patricio, and Mondongo... was all built while the water was way out.

E:And probably Calusa island too.

S:There are low places in the bay that correspond to the amount of dirt---tape switch--- [on

those islands]. Except it would have to be dug on dry land. In Captiva pass there is a

fresh water spring, or it used to be there, ----- it had maybe half a dozen saw palmetto

and a little spot of dirt that was that brown hard pan dirt and it was only about, oh










probably five six foot above sea level. And out of that spring you'd get the finest drinking

water you ever had

T:1 love spring water.

S:This was spring water. It was just beautiful.

E:Yeh. That was on....

S:On Captiva pass, on the south side. You have to go up in that bayou. It's a big round bayou

there. I don't know what they call it now. I used to call it safety harbor. You had to go up

in that bayou and go northwest after rounding that corner. Go northwest and then you

find that spring.

E:There was a big Indian mound back in there, but somebody pushed it all down and made an

airport.

Tape goes blank

S:.....well all of this road come around, they got it paved now, but all of that was based with this

conch shell.

T:Where was that Spicer place? It was up on the main road?

S:Yeh. You could see it. It sits back from the road about 150 ft.

T:You mentioned.... Do you remember how old you where when all that took place?

S:You mean when they took the shell away?

T:Yeh. Well, you said there where about three phases but...

S:When they where building the roads I was probably about oh eight or ten years old.

T:Do you remember how old you were when your dad stopped them from digging?

S:Oh I was pretty young. I mean half a dozen people dug on it. He didn't stop them completely,

but ah Wilson was the last one he run off of it and that was back in 1926.

T:Keene was the guy you were telling me about. You were saying that Keene was taking it for

Mr. Wilson or something like that.










S:Owen Keene was the foreman for Wilson. That was before I went to work for him. Here is

the Spicer place on the old Bokeelia road. The Spicer place sites right there. ----all the

way to the post office and all the way to Bokeelia was based with that shell.

E:How about that canal that goes through those trees there we were looking at.

T:You remember any kind of canal coming up through here to the grove?

S:Not north and south.

T:Right. There's a little pond back in here. I don't know if you know, it's right on the property

line. I don't now how long that's been there or whether its new. There's a depression

that leads off this thing coming up this way.

S:Well there used to be a little lake that started back here that had a wind mill that pumped

water where they got the water from this. And that windmill was destroyed in 1926

E:The hurricane?

T:Do you remember hurricane Donna?

S:Oh yeh [laughing]. I reckon so. I worked all through it.

T:Could you tell us a little about it? what happened on pineland? Where the water came and

what it looked like.

S:Well we didn't have as much water out of it as we planned on. I was working with the sheriffs

department at the time and we planned on about 12 or 14 feet along pine island, but I

don't think it had more than just an ordinary hurricane tide. In the 1921 storm and the

1933 (storm), which wasn't a hurricane, it was just a heavy northwestern about like that

mess we had this summer. Only it blew for over a week out of the south. I mean real

hard probably at times up 40 50 miles per hour.

E:And that put some water up in here?

S:Just filled the gulf everywhere with water and it was on a saturday night that the wind went to

the northwest at top high water and it put water up a third of the way on each side of










Pine Island. It killed the pine trees on Pine Island. That's the highest water that I know

of.

T:Almost all this stuff would have been underwater.

S:Oh, all of it.

E:Except for the mounds.

S:Well, all of this, this part up here where the big house is, that was all under three and a half to

four feet of water. The only reason it didn't get the big house was it was up, built up

high. It don't look like its high, but when you go underneath it you can almost stand up

under it.

T:Do you remember ... could you describe what the Adams mound used to look like.

S:Well the mound is no different than its always been. I don't think they dug out off of the

mound, but up on the southeast side of the mound was a little lake where they took the

dirt out to build that mound and on the northeast side there was a little lake and the size

of those just about corresponded to sand that was in that mound. There was no low

land around that mound except those two ponds.

T: Where was the back end of the swamp, moving back towards the Ibis pond, where was the

back end of the swamp back in here? The packing house was here and the swamp kind

of came up through here. Where would we start to get into the drier land in this area.

S:Well, over here at the packing house.

T:Oh. I see more or less right on this line. Right like that.

S:Yeh.

E:lt's amazing what a little ditchin' drainage will do to a piece of property. Your familiar with the

canal across pine island have you ever followed that east?

S:No. I followed some part of the way but not all of the way. Dad had followed it because he

was quite a hunter. A dear hunter.










T:So he said it went all the way across?

S:Oh yeh. It comes out over there pretty close to Indian Field. You ever been out to indian

field?

T:No. I haven't. I seen pictures like that [the aerial]

E:l've been on Indian Field. Its just exactly a mirror image of this.

T:Have you been over that way?

S:No.

E:What we're having problems with is the canal. We don't believe it was a sea level canal and

that it might not have gone through at each end because this canal has to go through

nine foot of elevation to get across the island.

S:1 can't answer that.

E:Well neither can we. The indians seem to be pretty smart.

T:The swamp was pretty big through here. Originally it would have been pretty wide.

S:Yeh ah... back of the mounds all this was high land, but back of these mounds, part of this

and all of that in here was ah... of course I was too young to remember when Harsen

took it over. When Harrsen bought it [he] was the original owner. I was too young to

know what was going on then, but after, after being sold half a dozen times, like I say

first one done one thing and (the next) done something else. They tore it down to what it

is today.

T:Was the water front pretty much like it is today? Up in front of these mounds out towards the

bay. Was this like it is today?

S:No. It used to be just a little narrow beach that come down here to the corner of that sea wall

there.

T:So it was more or less where the road is today. Somewhat further in.










S: The beach come up to the road. I suspect it.. before they built the road, the beach was

probably up to the edge of that shell mound. That shell mound comes right down to the

water. All the way down. But I can remember what this beach along here in front of the

old Harris house... this house here was white sand about 150 ft all the way down there.

T:This is one Harris house and then they bought...

S:Harris bought all of this.

T:So that's the Harrisen /Harris house.

S:You have to go back to land records to find out how many different people owned what.

T:That's a job in of it self isn't?

S:Well Harrsen was the original... I'm tying to think. I think that Harris bought it. He was the

typewriter contractor. And then the next people that I can remember was Heckles. -------

--- they bought it. They only had it a little while and sold it to this Inches. And I believe

that Randell bought it from Inches. That parcel on the mound.

E:Doc Haitte is in there some place. Randell bought it from Doc Hiatte. From the bible college

down there.

S:Maybe so, maybe so.

S:...except it would have to be dug on dry land. Captiva Pass is a freshwater spring, it

used to be half a dozen and a little spot of dirt

that was that brown, hardpacked dirt. It was only about, oh, probably five or six

foot above sea level. Out of that spring, you would get the finest drinking water

you ever tasted.

T:I love spring water.

S:This is spring water, beautiful.

E:That was on--










S:Captiva Pass, the south side of Captiva Pass. You would bave to go up in that byou,

there is a big round byou over there, I do not know what they call it now, they

used to call it Safety Harbor. You had to go up in that byou and go northwest

after you northwest [inaud.].

E:There was a big Indian man back in there but somebody pushed that all down and

made an airport--

[tape off for a bit]

S:Follow this road that would come around, they have it paved now. All of that was

based with this function.

T:Where was that spicer place? Was that part of the main road or Kingfellow.

S:Yes, you could see it, you have to sit back in the road about 100 to 50 feet.


T:Do you remember how old you were when all that stuff took place?

S:You mean when they took the shell away?

T:Yes, you said there were kind of three stages.

S:They were building the roads, I was probably only about eight or ten years old.

T:Do you remember how old you were when your dad stopped them ?

S:I was pretty young. I mean half a dozen people dug them _, but Wilson was

the last to be run off by back in 1926.

T:Keen was the guy that you were telling me about. You were saying that Keen was

taking it for Mr. Wilson or something like that?

S:Keen was the foreman of Wilson. That was before I went to work for them. Here is

the spicer place. That old road. post office and


E:How about that canal that goes through those trees here that we were looking at?










T:Do you remember any kind of canal coming up through here to the grove?

S:Not north and south.

T:There is a little pond back in here, I do not know if you know it, it is right on the

property line. I do not know how long that has been there or whether it is new. It

is kind of like a depression, there are some depressions that lead off this thing

coming up...

S:There used to be a little lake that started back here that had a windmill to pump

water. They got the water from this tank. The windmill was destroyed in 1926.

T:Do you remember Hurricane Donna, ?

S:l worked all through it.

T:Can you tell us a little bit about it or what happened, kind of a or where the

water came and what it looked like?

S:We did not have as much water out I was working at the sheriff's

department. The tide only got twelve or fourteen feet I do not think it

had more than just an ordinary huuricane tide. 1921 storm and the 1933 [storm]

which was just a hurricane, it was just a heavy about like that mess we

had this summer. It blew for over a week out of the south and I mean real hard,

probably at times at 40 to 50 mph.

E:That put some water up here.

S:Just filled with Gulf--everywhere was full of water. It was on a Saturday night, the

wind went to the northwest, the top high water and it put water about one-third of

the way on each side of Pine Island, even killed the pine trees on Pine Island.

That is the highest water that I know of.

T:So almost all this was under water?

S:Oh yes.










E:Except for the mounds. (laughter)

S:AII of this part up here here where the big house is, that was all probably under three,

three-and-a-half, four feet of water. The only reason it did not get to the big

house was because it stood up high. It does not look like it is high, but when you

go underneath it, you can almost stand up under it.

T:Can you describe the Adam's property, that mound, what that used to look like?

S:Well, the mound is no different than it has always been. I do not think anything was

dug off of the mound. But on the southeast side of the mound was a little lake

where they took the dirt out to build that mound and on the northeast side, there

was a little lake. The size just about corresponded with the sand dunes.


S:There was no more land around that mound except those two points/palms??.

T:Where was the back end of where was the back end of the swamp, back

in here? The pagnet house was here and the swamp kind of came up through

here. Where do we start to get into the drier land, I guess, in this area?

S: at the house.

T:I see. It is almost like on this line right across like that. (long pause) This is amazing,

amazing what a little ditching and draining will do to a piece of property. Are you

familiar with the canal when it crossed Island, did you ever follow that

east...?

S:No. I followed some part of the way but not all the way. had followed it, he

was quite a hunter, a deer hunter.

T:So he said it went all the way across, he used to do that?

S:Oh yes.

T:So he used to walk it.










S:It comes out over there pretty close to Have you ever been on Indian

field?

T:I have not. I have seen pictures like that of Indian Field.

E:I have been on Indian Fields, it is just exactly a mirror image of this.

T:Have you ever been over that way?

E:What we are having problems with with the canal is we do not believe it was a sea-

level canal. It might not have went through on each end because this canal has

to go through nine feet of elevation to get across the island.

S:I cannot answer that.

E:Neither can we. The Indians seem to be pretty smart.

T:I guess this was pretty big through here originally, it would have been pretty wide right

through here.

S:Yes, _, all this is high land in here. But in back of these mounds and part of

this and all of that in there. Of course, I was too young to remember when Harst

took it over. Harst had bought it the original owner. I was too young

to know all of this was going on then. After being sold a half-a-dozen times, like I

say, first one done one thing, done something else and tore it down to what it is

today.

T:Was this water fountain pretty much always like it is today?

Was this always kind of like it is today?

S:No. It used to be just a little dire beach, sitting down here

:So the beach was more or less where the road is today then, or was further in?

S:The beach come up to the road. Before they built the road, the beach was probably

up to the edge of that shell mound. That shell mound comes right down to the

water, all the way down. But I can remember when this beach along here










probably the old house, this house here was quite sound on about

150 feet all the way down.

T:This was one Harris house and then they bought...

S:Harris bought all of this

T: that is the postal/Harris house.

S:You would have to go back to land records to find out how many people

T:That is a job in itself, is it not?

S: was here originally. I am trying to think if it was I think then

Harris bought it. He was the The next people that I can remember

was Heckels, Mr. and Mrs. Heckels They bought it, they do not have

any little ones. They sold it to the Inches. I believe that Reidell bought it from

the Inches, but I am not sure.

E:Reidell bought it from Doc. Hyatt, from the Bible College, down there.

S:Maybe so.

E:He must have bought it from Inches.

T:Yes, Hyatt must have got it from Inches.

S:I lost track of a lot of it from 1946 and I moved off the place. I moved to St. James

and I commercial fished and scalloped and stuff like that for four, five or six

years. I wanted to work in the sheriffs office. I worked all that time in the sheriff's

office, I lost track of all that stuff from the island. I patroled from my house to

and all the way to

E:

S:...on our side of the river and I got back from the sheriff's office to pick up several

papers and worked the south side of the river When night come, I

would go into the black section and work there.










T:Nice though, to kind of think that once upon a time, one person could do that.

(laughter)

S:Plus, we got sub-stationed out there.

E:One-man patrol, that kind of saved money, today. That could not go

through Cape Coral in a day.

S:At that time there were only three of us patroling, about two of them stayed in the

office most of the time.

T:They used to have some pump stations around here, they used to pump some water

through this canal.

S:I used up a part of it_. Out about...

T:There is a little there on the edge of the canal. Just up from the burial

mound.

S:This is probably the pump station. It had a tower, water tower high there.

houses down here. I lived in this house over there the

whole time I was there.

T:This is across from the marina today?

S:Yes. Only it was twice as big as what it is now.

T:l think it might even be a different house.

S:I had a house there, and I had the big house here, had Harris Cottage up here and

Mr. and Mrs. Hall lived...

T:Was the big house out on this platform out here?

S:The big house would be west ...

T: west of the road.










E:This low-rectangular area in here, do you remember anything about that at all? Is

anybody using that for anything, I seem to have found some reminance of maybe

a chicken coupe or something up in here.

S:Well, like I say, I do not know what happened. See, along here somehweres is where

the Union passed by.

E:John L. Lewis.

S:John L. Lewis has got a house. They have built three or four houses around here

so. Behind this house, next to this mound is the mum depression.

I can remember when those trees were put in

there as fence posts. E:They were

T:They were big.

S:They has roots, you know. put them in the ground. They were fenceposts

at one time. They had a mule-lock.

E:Down in that depression?

S:Down in that depression and had water for them. That was when Wilson

bought the place. He filled that up with and made a rosegarden out of

it. Had probably about a half an acre on

E:Right in the depression.

S:Right in that depression.

T:That would account for some of the crushed shells

E:So it was even lower than it was. When the doggies were in it it was almost like much

of it almost had water in it.

S:Well, it probably did, but that was back when I was a little bitty boy.

[confused as to whom is speaking]

T:How much stuff do you think you put in there, do you remember?










S:Probably three or four feet.

T:Do you ever think of that, did you ever think that was a strange thing the way it is

ringed like that, looks like a little stadium kind of thing?

S:I do not know what it was for, it was always curious to me, like somebody dropped

something in there that popped a hole in it. I had an idea that some of those

places were water, drinking water. The closest freshwater that I can figure out

was on our place, our home place. The low spot that started the middle mound,

the sand mound...




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