Title: Washoe ethnographer Anita Spring transcription of taped interview
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Title: Washoe ethnographer Anita Spring transcription of taped interview
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Anita Spring


CHRONICLER : Anita Spring

INTERVIEWER : Meredith (Penny) Rucks

DATE : 1/18 /99

TAPE : 8

SUBJECT : Washoe Ethnographers

TRANSCRIBER : Linda Sommer

AUDIT-EDITOR : Penny Rucks






Meredith (Penny) Rucks: This is January 18, continuing with

the interview with Anita Spring, and we're at Saint Augustine at

her house. [ape off, then on]

Anita Spring: After the training session, which people at

Oregon State were really very pleased with and I was very pleased

with, and as I said, they videotaped every session--I still have

those--they asked me to work with the woman who would be hired as

part of the project to go to Malawi and work with women's

programs and, in a way, continue on with the work that I had been

doing. And the woman they selected was an agronomist, and I was

absolutely tickled that they picked her when I saw her vita,

because -I. E-e -r S I was sort of masquerading as an

agronomist at times,...







Anita Spring


R: Yes.

S: ... as well as an anthropologist and policy person

sq-ueading in thoce t- p c ) But I thought

that, yFatAt&w, someone with ti- those other skills...



S: might be able to take it off in another direction.

- 4_1 ..... ...n asked if she could come to Gainesville, and I

said I would be very willing to work with her. I really cared a

great deal what happened in Malawi...

R: Oh, yes. Yes.

S: ... and follow-on to that project--I mean, passionately

cared. So I said I would make available to her, gefekgw, my

materials, that I would, 3yej w, be happy to work with her. To
\L
make a long story short, I don't know the political thisses-and-

thats, but for some reason she could not go on that project--this

particular person whom I had spoken with on the telephone; I'd

seen her CV. And instead, they found another person, a home

economist.

R: Oh, my ....

S: And, of course, the home economists were the bane, as

far as I could ascertain, at least the traditional ones.

R: Yes. Yes.


8-2






Anita Spring


S: I'm not talking about people like, you know, Francine

Firebough p who's the dean of -uman ology at Cornell and

has turned that college around to modern times.

R: Yes.

S: But the fairly traditional focus on the family, not

realizing that family means, you- a multitude of things,

depending on where you are on the planet.

R: Right. Right.

S: And I'm sure I don't have a proper, yeu w,

conceptualization of the modern aspects of the discipline. But,

nevertheless, they manifest enough of the old aspects of the

discipline in their public presentations and writings for =-

h4ak people to still think that they're doing, yu=saw, some

fairly arcane, archaic, and fairly low-level stuff, most of which

is very focused on the developed world.

R: Right.

S: And when it gets to the developing world, it's really

pretty watered-down stuff. And it's all, yogass.. for the
F6r -r-e
developed worlds.. developing world, it's all micro-enterprise
,aey lu- UA L4,
development of the most micro sort.
,k

R: Part of the economy. Another marginal....

S: Yes. Very, very.., very marginalized, very low-level,


8-3






Anita Spring


very...



S un-high-tech,...

R: Right.

S: ... really low-tech kinds of endeavors. And so to make

a long story short, they hired someone else--a very pleasant

woman, I might add--and she went to Malawi. And, for example,

instead of the head of women's programs going off to get her

master's degree in horticulture, which is what... yoigknrw, the

idea of having the technical assistant who was going to replace

her, the Ph.D. from America, so she could go off as part of the

project training and get an advanced degree.








S----- Yg. Th t... instead of going in horticulture, which

was her desire--she already had a five-year... i =w--a-F- v-y ar

degaxe,-bachelor's, from the allege of Agriculture in Malawi
G a-
called Bunda[gf College of Agriculture--she got it in

agriculture extension.

R: Oh.

S: J. Which is a much meeker, softer, yi >,...







. i.


8-4






Anita Spring 8-5


R: Feminine.

S: ... feminine discipline, quite frankly. And when it

came time for her to do her master's thesis, she did it on the

development of these women-specific, micro-enterprise development

projects, which was just really basically one step up from the

very low-level, yoQkq-H, "Let's get some women's groups together

and show them... yo~ra a. We'll get thirty women, and they'll


S: .'-and that'll be,--ggu zw, a technology for women."

R: Right. Right.

S: And it was pretty.. ==nas~r-g3---ezty much like that.

So they t had six pigs. I==eany it really it was at that

level.

R: Yes.

S: The terminology was IGAs--income-generating activities.

R: Oh.

S: They actually didn't really use the word

microenterprise. They used income-generating activities. I'm

unaware of any income-generating activity, IGA, ever promulgated

on this planet for men, as a __^u comparison.

R: Right. Right.







Anita Spring


S: So, unfortunately, what happened was that women's

programs, instead of integrating and sort of throwing its weight

Scout, which I thought I had built up with them for those

couple of years and for that...- fa ew, that publication I

showed you,...

R: Right.

S: ... Priorities for Women's Programs, in which we

redesigned, yggjpw, all the job descriptions, all the reporting

formats, all the curriculum and training for both women farmers

and for female extensions agents, and we even had a component for

male extension agents... in that, ya w. A-Ef r---

R: So that was not operationalized?

S: Not to its full extent. It was operationalized, but I

never got back there to measure it. Had I been doing the

monitoring evaluation, I could have answered you X that it was

45 percent..-



S: operationalized..



S: -3 65 percent, o gss w, these were the aspects

that were carried out to the letter; these were ones that were

modified. u ,iow, l I have is an analysis that I made on two


8-6






Anita Spring


visits back,



S: .-. and it's not as detailed as I would have liked.

R: Right.

S: But they did operationalize quite a bit of it.

R: Right.

S: It's just not, ya-ks as much as I would have liked.

And so this notion that because the head of women's programs went

to United States for her master's degree in education... well, ag

education and extension instead of a production science, like

horticulture, she was disadvantaged and has continued to be...



S: .-.?in relation to the other male counterparts who were

heads of units and sectors and sections in the Ministry of

Agriculture.



She's a very smart woman.

R: Do you think she was counseled to change her...

S: Oh, she was. She told me... when I went back, she told

me she had applied to horticulture and was accepted to

agriculture extension and education department at the university

at Oregon State.


8-7






Anita Spring


R: Yes.

S: So it had been changed by the people from Oregon State.

R: I see. I see.

S: They knew they were going to sponsor her. Her grades

were fine; yu=j 5w, she was the head of women's programs for the

country of Malawi in the Ministry of Agriculture. She was sharp

as a tack.

R: Right.

SS: She had all the credentials; she was the one who was

going to be sent.



-- She knew what she wanted to study.



SShe filled out the application, specifying

horticulture.

R: Yes.

S: Yes. It's amazing.

R: Yes.

S: So anyway, y, the reason I'm mentioning this in

such detail is that my goal for the women and the Wmen's

programs was to be in the mainstream of all activities that the

Ministry of Agriculture was doing. So the credit example that I


8-8







Anita Spring


gave you was using the Ministry of Agriculture's entire credit

program.

R: Right.

S: It wasn't "Let's have a program for women in place

A,".



... or "Let's just have a program for women...



S: .- that's separate." -g hat's what we mean by the

word mainstream or mainstreaming...



S.. an activity, as opposed to a woman-specific or

woman-separate..



---.. or woman-segregated project or activity.

R: Right.

S: So my idea was .ye=-whether it was research, whether

i-ft qgg- g. p snw, extension workers, a-wad w=ey could work

with farmers of both genders.

R: And let me just clarify something, ltik is the

reason that this mainstreaming would have worked so well in

Malawi, is because you had so many female head of households by


8-9







Anita Spring


the definition?

S: No. No.




S O.

R: hat's noL...?

:-The female head of households had nothing to do with

it.




S: They were leverage data that I used to say, "If you

don't help a third of the households in your country, if you

automatically don't reach them because they're female-headed,

you're going to have deficits...

R: Right.

S: ... of, you know, nutrition deficits, education

deficits, technology gaps, and so forth. No, they're just

ordinary, y know3 peasant people who have. '.. you"l'ry*re QuAL

out in the rural areas. They have no voice, zero.

R: Right. Right.

S: a But the idea was to take the agricultural

professionals and semi-professional staff members at every level

and redirect their whole programmatic efforts, because they were

trying to work with farmers, and eventually, I figured, they will


8-10







Anita Spring


get to the female head of households.

R: Right. Right.

S: But they were just excluding them, and they were

excluding women in general.

R: Right.

S: And to start using mainstream methods with people who

were there on the spot. Because the female extension workers...

first of all, there were a few of them--they weren't there on the

spot, they weren't trained, and they weren't interested, and they

didn't deliver credit and inputs.

R: Right.

S: So, y Dko, a.-_e.- I think it's possible maybe five

hundred years from now they'll have all those skills, or a

hundred years. But -t wgB they did not, and they still don't.

Y ,e-r ey're moving toward that direction as a result of all

this, but they're not there yet.

But the others, the way the whole prd.. as I told you,

Malawi was divided into these programs and projects. They all

continued to operate, but they had only been targeting men, for

the most part. And mainstreaming women is to get the same

operations, the same machinery

PBji P-3ign- ^-


8-11







Anita Spring


S: .--fim .-the institutional machinery, is what I mean,

to focus on women as well as on men.

R: Right.



R:^ht.

S: The alternative to that [laughter] is to have the

income-generating activities only for women, with the notion

that... a 'hi ...-- women are brought together in groups; as a

group project, they, qaygss w, learn how to plant a particular

crop, or they learn how to raise some chickens, or they learn how

to market or process some commodity. It's unprecedented for men

to have to do something like this. I.aea-, jt just doesn't occur.

You don't get a group of men together and say, "OK. Y~achaw,

here are two pigs. You thirty men are going to raise these two

pigs, and then you're going to split the profits."

R: Right.

S: "And this is going to teach you, yg~wrk w, pig

raising."



S They would laugh.

R: Yes.

S: They were all treated as individuals; each man was








.'. i. :: "


8-12






Anita Spring


given two pigs. OK?

R: Yes.

S: So that's the difference in scale. So there'd be sixty

pigs for thirty men and two pigs for thirty women.

R: Right.



R_ t.

S: And to just put that in real perspective, I went and

visited this one group of women who tw.-"were growing an

improved variety of maize, or corn. Call it maize in Africa.
/1
R: Right.

S: And so because I was visiting--and this is typical--

they cooked a big meal, and they sang and danc4andi,2 u knew ..

Men don't cook a meal and sing and dance if you go look at their

project.

R: [laughter]

S: And with... the singing and dancing is all very nice

and literally free, OK, but the meal part is not,...

R: Right.

S: .~,_4v_ --eow. I mean, to offer guests, a cooked chicken

and the whole thig and Coca-Colas, multiple bottles of Coca-

Cola, and, y.- k4new, biscuits and bread ..... ."--i- these L3t


/lny.


8-13







Anita Spring 8-14


jazi- yZjjj for village women,4EL-w you know the

categories of food I'm talking about.

R: Yes.

S: Much of it is purchased, and the rest is sort of

gourmet village food, the best they have to offer.

R: Yes. Yes.

S: There were costs. And, of course, I come with,,yees

-kram- the whole entourage of extension officers, who, y a_

proceed to gorge themselves on this lovely food that these women

should rightly have been eating themselves or feeding their

family. I mean, it's terrible!

R: Yes.

S: It's just really terrible.

R: Yes.

S: And they're put on the spot.... This is all over--not

just Malawi. This is all over the developing world.

R: Right.

S: I can't tell you how many times it's happened to me.

And they're very pleasant events, but I'm mostly sitting there

thinking, "My god--their families need this food, not me," and

certainly not all these extension agents .and government officials

who were, saa-kNeaw, especially the men, eating, y4=Es) s,







Anita Spring 8-15


quantities that are basically beyond belief.

R: Yes.

S: So, of course, that happened. And I said, "OK. Why

don't you explain what this project is about?"

It turns out they had worked with a male extension agent in

the area. He said (and I spoke with him afterwards) he was going

to give them a new technology. $rt 1F w hey were growing local

maize, traditional maize, maize of the ancestors. He was going to

give them composite maize.

I said, "Well, excuse me. The research station and everybody

else in the country j_;growing hybrid maize," which is a better
A
yielding, especially if you're going to go to the trouble of

using inputs.

R: Right.

S: Composite maize needs a little bit, but... and hybrid

maize needs....

R: And input is like fertilizer....
A'
S e. r...



S: ..r d.. yes, exactly.

R ==.







Anita Spring


S: i ...and improved seed, of course.

R: Yes.

S: And he said, "Well, I was going to move them up

gradually."

R: Oh. OK.

S: Q- L7wi,'his would never have happened. It never did

happen with male farmers. Nobody ever would have said, "I'm going

to give these male farmers composite maize." I mean, male farmers

5t7sR grew composite maize, but that's before the hybrid maize

was available,



S: ..T--nd many still continue to grow. It was an

intermediate- yielding product. But the idea that because they

were women,.. these women had farmed their entire lives.

R: Right.

S: I mean, it's not like they were taking a group of

urbanites and trying to teach....

R: Like us. [laughter]

S: Exactly. And trying...

R: Yes.

S: ... like me in Zambia, trying to...








4


8-16






Anita Spring


R: [laughter]

S: ... to teach the people how to farm. These were

experienced, mid-aged women, yia3a in their thirties,

forties, and fifties, who were farmers all their lives and had

grown technologypc-, which is to say, local maize, because

that's Bha-t---... thL's the seed they had, and plus a bunch of

other crops, ye=taw a large number. Excuse me. And instead of

just moving them right into hybrid maize, was giving them an

intermediate technology. It was horrifying. Not only that, I sat

there and costed it out in terms of productions costs. -_L----
L+1? pcfArr~
They paid for tractor services; they had the sacks to put the

harvest in; they had to store them and so forth. And the village

elder, of course, had given them the land to practice on a tiny

piece of land.

R: Yes.

S: These women were used to growing, ygiieyW, acres...

and acres worth! I--moean, you Lknoh.r- r lre were thirty of them

all together, or I think twenty-three or something in this

particular case. So I sat there: How much do they pay for

tractors? How much did they pay for the sacks? What did the

fertilizers cost? Did they pay for the seeds? I think they got

the seed. And what was their yield? OK? And then how many people


8-17







Anita Spring


were in the group? And by the time I finished dividing... or

calculating, y5aQkm, what their production costs were,...

R: Right.

S: ... OK, what their yield was, and what it would sell

for..



S: 7 and the number of people in the group, yukw,

each woman was going to make like a dollar, half of which had

been spent on the meal, which we had just consumed, with the

Coca-Colas and the biscuits and the X number of chickens. And

then they wonder why women lose interest.... A lot of these

things have a very short life. They'll last for a season or two

or maybe a couple of years, and then people say, "Well, look at

these women." Yetr4kiW. "They cannot do these technical things;

they can't stay with it."

R: Yes.

S: And it has nothing to do with that. It's just that it's

a lot of their time. It might..-=d.& J 4u ft have been fun, but

it's useless as a livelihood enterprise.

R: Yes.

S: Really amazingly useless. Anyway, so the reason I tell

you that story is because as a result of this home economist and


8-18







Anita Spring


as a result of the head of women's programs...

R: Who did not come work with you, I gather--the home

economist?


S--------h
R a. wa.a.

S I c-rn'-tfe-kowwhy ~s hdidi't.

E OKs But sher d-rro-f.-






S: She did not. Although I did get her reports and

everything, and that was made available to me. But... the woman,

the Malawian woman, who got her master's degree in ag

education... extension and education, her thesis was on these

income-generating activities. And by the time she came back and

finished that and worked with her staff, nationwide, to beef up

these IGAs, there were 578 women in the whole country involved in

the activities connected with women's programs. Whereas my credit

situation I told you yesterday was 175,000.

R: Yes.

S: And, see, that had been my goal, to make all of the

operations similar to the one with credit.

R: Yes.


8-19







Anita Spring


S: What we did manage to accomplish was total

disaggregation by gender of every bit of data that wE- collected

in Malawi for the next decade. I do not know about the very

present, but t-- I can't imagine that they threw it by the

wayside.

R: Right.

S: I would go to conferences all over the world...

different places. People would come up to me, and they would say,

"You know, I was in Malawi, and I was working in...," and they'd

name a place that I'd never been to. "And I found all this

gender-disaggregated data."

R: Yes.

S: "And when I ask people about it, they said you had
d,46 PV AArO f-
started this pro 4."' Ysenmew. So it sort of went everywhere for

everything, because Malawi, as a country, as I told you, had this

incredible empiricist tradition. And once they got the idea, they

would just keep going with it. So it was quite extraordinary. So

all of that--I mean, the country, gEss n, has maintained this--

all of that continued through time.

R: Yes.


8-20






Anita Spring


S: The credit program worked, and they did it themselves

after I started it, because, yet~-nno by the time I left, there

were still only 5... maybe it had gone up to 7 or 8 percent, and

then it just kept going up, up, up, up, up--35 percent of, ycv

kg. all input takers in the country were women. And the head of

it thought -1 it would go up to 40 percent.

R: Yes. What are input takers?

S: People who get credit, and the credit is in-kind input
A
like improved seed and fertilizer.



So those are called the iJZt,1Pi^-s

R: e e

S: ... e agricultural input$>

R: I see.





S: So..._& whereas women's programs had the 578 women in

the whole country [laughter], because they had gone off on the

traditional....

R: When you say, "They had gone off," do you mean...


8-21







Anita Spring


S: I mean, women's programs had gone off under the

guidance of the home economist provided by the USAID, U.S.

Government Technical Assistance Program to Malawi, and by the

fact that the women were channeled into getting their master's

degrees in these kinds of subjects,...



S: <-. opposed to being really comparable with the

men...



7.. and getting t fnin the same production subjects.

They still would have come back and have...

R: Do you have any idea why?

S: Yes! Of course.

R: Yes.

S: Yes. Had they gotten them in -m= -- the production

topics, they would have 9=-"rl come back and headed up their

units, but they would have been on a par with their male

colleagues intellectually and education-wise, but that was not

done.

R: Right.

S: The reason is... well, 1=ean=-I have to confess that

I'm very prejudiced against home economists.


8-22







Anita Spring


R: Well, that's all right....

S: I really am. They were, early on, in... both in our own
A
land grant systems and then subsequently in the developing world.

They were the women who were there as women professionals. And

they guided, y~gg g, women of America to do scientific domestic

housekeeping, while the men were the farmers.

R: Right.

S: And... yoFrHUGCn--An;-i-5 8y -_. it just turns on this

notion that men and women have a very different and specific

gender division of labor.

The other thing about the home economists, a lot of them

were educated, and they spent a lot of time protecting... and

they were in these posts, and they were salaried, and they had

spent a lot of time protecting their positions.

R: Yes.

S: They also were often in a totally female environment

and in agricultural colleges across America and the world, they

were in their own separate departments, which they could

administer and have the curriculum on, and so they were...-tkag

M^^.considered safe and nonthreatening by their male colleagues.

But they were also very protective of their own prerogatives and

privileges, and they didn't integrate. I mean, te-= ---e- nar,


8-23







Anita Spring


there weren't women in the agronomy department; there weren't men

in the home economics departmen...



S: ... -s a for instance.

.R: Righ

_ad. -. t ci.-^e. ..

This is an entrenched pattern.

S: It's a very entrenched pattern.

R: Yes.

S: And I'm sure there are lots of exceptions and good

people who are very forward-thinking. I do know a couple at the

University of Florida who, ah- T r-, thoey do a lot of the same

things that I do, and I have a great deal of respect for them.

And they know that the family is different in the United States

versus Malawi, [laughter] but...



S: most people don't.

R: Right.

S: And a lot of the home economists do not have a lot of

international experience or international experience outside the

context of home economics.

R: Well,-a .S, don't you think they also have the tiel.








: -- : : : : ..: : -: : :


8-24







Anita Spring


t~ idea that any form of technology is better for a developing

country, and if it comes in a pattern that's a little foreign, so

what? That's part of the project, the process...

S: The process Yes.

R: ... of modernization.

S: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And Z3, s, d y I so resent

women being talked down to or women being offered lesser

technology.

R: Yes.

S: Yau-4Iw, he whole business in America of women

fearing mathematics, for example. I mean, it is so shocking. -9 ,

.having-be-atheattics was always easy for me, and having

been a math minor in college, I never personally could understand

it. But I have read and heard and listened to people long enough

to know that, i wgsJ w, it is an absolute reality.

R: But didn't your female friends at school say, "Oh, my

god, how can you do that?" I mean, was that...?

S: Oh, well, yes, of course.

R: Yes.

S: Yes, of course. But can you imagine...? Now, take this

to its logical conclusion. If all girls in America were not even

offered the possibility of taking of geometry, algebra, and


8-25







Anita Spring


cal


k---S Because the majority of them didn't like math.

R: Right.

S: And that's what I'm talking about...



1': ? in terms of the developing world. To offer women

lesser technologies just because they were women and just because

men had been practicing or doing those technologies earlier or

even very well at a particular time. Or if women had, you-know,

tried and didn't do well at the beginning, because it was not

well explained to them, or they didn't have the basic preliminary

skills to even start on it,< -now, this is just downright

unfair..

t.

-,>... and wrong.

R: Right.

S: And I just felt so strongly about it.

R: Yes. Yes.

S: Very, very strongly. And that example that I just gave


8-26







Anita Spring


you of the offering the women the composite, instead of the

hybrid, variety, E ae, it's like, ySIu k-ow, offering somebody,

you know, a stove that was made ten years ago when you've got a

new one that, ypeunww, has an automatic pilot light or....

R: Well, think of the analogy of computers, too.

S: Yes!

R: Giving the women... oh, and the women are going to have t

old computer.

S: The'women will have the old computers

R: that don't go so fast....

S: ... and the men will have the ones that....

R: yes...

S: Yes. Yes. I mean, it's a shocking. It's just shocking,

yoZrI-kfw. IT ym- .if that were done in terms of racial

categories, just imagine.

R: Right.

S: Just imagine.

R--39g^^-^^

Qlb e-jis yet it has been done in terms of gender,

in terms of the sexes,...

R: Consistently.

S: ... consistently and on a worldwide basis. So I was


8-27







Anita Spring


just horrified. And so my goal at all times there was to try to

broaden the horizons of these agricultural professionals at every

level and people in the planning units, because they were

spending huge amounts of money to have these programs, and the

programs actually targeted real people, y.Pao, and then

working with real people at the bottom to capacitate them (I

don't like using capacitate as a verb).

R: Yes. [laughter]

S: To help them or increase their capacities to understand

technologies.... Number one, and number two, to give voice to

their needs. Because a lot of peo .' e ale--I'll

never forget this--people always say, "Well, what do the women

want?"

I said, "OK. What do the women want? Let's go ask them."

R: Yes.

and-thcy would talk... I hope you don't loe






S: They would talk in a very low voice [speaks in a low
-A
voice]. I can't say this in a loud voice because they really

spoke in a very low voice. And they would say things like [speaks

in a low voice], "Well, give us what you want."


8-28







Anita Spring


R: Yes! [laughter]

S: And I'm... "Oh, my god! Can't you tell us what you

need?" "And we'll see if we can link that up." But it's..._ Vn

kn~]r T7- S just so self-deprecating, number one. Number two, it

really occurred to me that didn't know what was available out

there. For example, they thug=-e-ate=-shy thought that

agricultural training, participation in these credit and/or input

programs, were only for men.

S: They didn't think they'd have a chance.

R: Right.

S: Yoku ]n-n. e, wasn't like, "I really want to get

in it. Can I do it?" da-da, da. It was like, "Oh, well," ye.-

kT-4 e They. .T -- ,- they didn't even think about it.

R: Right.

S: It-ts .. "That's only for men"; it doesn't affect

them; "we'll go on to the next thing".

R: Right.

S: So they had no idea that people, as opposed to just

male people, -y rn, could actually do that activity.

Show diypu gept J ut t1l


* *


8-29







Anita Spring


End of Side 1, Beginning of Side 2

*

R: OK. So how did you get past the women saying, "Just

give us what you want."

S: Well, yes. There was this British woman who was on a

project in one area, and she actually came up with a methodology.

And she had this idea--and I think I was showing it to you in the

priorities for women's programs,...

R: Yes. On the Ak .

S: ... ft's also, 3jIda in the book--in which you

would generate from the women ideas about what their needs were,

first, and I think you can talk about what some of the problems

that people have. And the idea is to do this in a group, so that

people find their voice, and the group has to be -very friendly,

and it was all female at the beginning. g1 And then after

t' .. --you elicit the problems, then the idea is to say, "Well,

yea-katw, what do you see as types of solutions?"

R: Right.

S: OK. And so people may be very limited in what they see

as solutions. On the other hand, they may even include pie-in-

the-sky- type solutions. So you get this whole range from,-ye-

kbsi--the very mundane to the very outrageous or impossible or


8-30







Anita Spring


too expensive or whatever.

R: Right. Right.

S: And then youssrt==e work through this with a leader,

and you-kijdae-f recognize who are the people who will speak out,

and you start bolstering them, so they actually become some

spokespersons and so forth.

R: Yes.

S: So, yeaga~f~e -E'.. there are different methods but all Uo('[-

O0 creating a safe environment to discuss these things in a group.

R: Now, are these like focus groups?

S: In a way, I guess they could be called that. I don't

believe we did call them that at the time, but, yes, they were

just getting together groups of women and putting them in a

situation where they felt at ease and helping to channel the

conversation and bolster the fact that, "Yes, that is a need,"

or, yekaw, "That would be a solution. Let me give you some

others, but yours are good suggestions." .-mnea that kind of

very supportive environment.

R: So for that kind of work, where you're actually

creating a situation where you're successfully communicating

between two cultures like that, .ha-wn ..And when I say

the two cultures, I'm talking about the USs. USAIDai -


8-31







Anita Spring


[ .aug1-vH-ro] nwgs -a- speei-f--p-rogILm? ?



And the indigenous culture.

S: No. No. That was not it.



S_ It was more like once we got the methodology, you could

get Malawian professionals to do it.

R: Yes.

S: I didn't have to do it. I never did it personal ...



Because it really was best done in Chechewa [s<-

,/'for instance.

R: Right.

S: It didn't have to be done through translation or only

with English speakers. So people could do it at the very local

level.

R: Right.

S: And you could teach the female extension workers how to

do it, as a for instance, and then they could lead the

discussion. So it was much better process and you could have more

people.

R: So it's a self-perpetuating process...


8-32







Anita Spring


S: Yes.

R: ... once you set it..

S:

in motion. yvr

S: Yes. I was very keen on not... I did not do a lot of
S to 410
these things. I had other...I trained...It was really training of
A -1
trainers, TOT is what they call it. :.---..

R: So your role... and I'm just trying to define the role,

specifically. As the anthropologist, though, your role really is

to also communicate between all these layers .



>... of people...

S: And levels.

R: ... and levels.





S: I did a lot of stuff, however, in the Malawi project

with local people directly.47' So I don't want to minimize that.

R: Right.

S: o'r ..p .... r example, the process

I just told you about, I might have done a couple of sessions.

R: Right.


8-33







Anita Spring 8-34


S: I just didn't do it in ten groups in three places.

[laughter]

R: Right. Right. Right. No, I understand.

S: I might check in on a group here and there after I had

done a few I would do the initial stuff myself to -i]ebf- get a

feel for it. *- But there really wasn't any reason for me to

keep doing it over and over and over again.

R: No. And, in fact, what... I mean, what you described

before was this process of refinement. You try something on a

small scale,...

S: Yes.

R: ... and then what worked....

S: Right. Now, I did..,s this was really crazy. The

eight agricultural development divisions were located in eight
A
different places around the country. The major cities had these

rural development programs somewhat near th te .m most of

the headquarters. And each one of these was very hierarchical and
-rtJe qt-.b LX C_ d-I L& a-4L C +
very structured. Each cn h' d different sector so there was

agronomy, animal husbandry, women's programs, credit, extension,

et cetera.

R: Right. Right.

S: OK. A4d41kg e 11 officers--the program manager,







Anita Spring


the evaluation unit, statistics.... Z _Saraaa-]--- r e were

in the central office. Between myself and my two staff members,

the three of us, we went to six of them, six of the eight, and

spoke personally with every head of the sector or section.

R: Right.

S: And it went something like this: "What do you do? What

are you working on? What are the formats that you use? What kind

of reports do you have to make?" And so we would elicit .



S: 1.-^ everything that they did, and then we would

genderize it. SS--~,t/id then the two that I didn't do, I sent one

of my officers to do those two, and she did those. She did

everybody in those two places. I couldn't go. So essentially, we

got around to every head of section--of course, there's change in

personnel--in the entire country.

R: Yes.

S: And, in fact, let me tell you this story. There was a

"field day." And a field day at the research station, people from

all over come, and then the researchers lead everybody on a tour

through their experiments in the fields and the results and the

farm machinery unit and those kinds of things and explain the

findings. So I don't remember... there's about 150... I don't


8-35







Anita Spring


remember the exact number... 150 people, mostly men, who show up

for the Chitedze Pesearch7tation field day. md-th at-G htedze...

_nd I better spcll3-rl-for you...;



in Ma

-spelled--- -z-e.

R: And it is the language and the ethnic group?

S: It's a place.

R: Oh, it's a place?

S& :It's a place.

i--h- T ought-t--i-was-ihLea language.






S The an e-i-s Cc- Chitedze is just a place

name..

(R Yes.

S OK.

K.

S: And it's the largest research station in Malawi.

R: Yes.

S: OK. So there're about 150 people walking throughhrcfc

4kae, the rows of maize and whatever other crops were there and


8-36







Anita Spring


examining experiments. And somebody said to me, "Dr. Spring...,"

question, question, blah, blah, blah. I don't remember what the

question was.

And this one man turns around and says, "Dr. Spring?" and

looks at me.

And I said, "Yes. I'm Dr. Spring."

And he looks at me, and he goes [imitates stammering],

"Uh... um... um... Dr. Spring, I... I... I... I thought you would

be... be... um... bigger."

R: [laughter]

S: [laughter]

R: That's great!

S: Yes. You know what he... I mean, yla*i, he didn't

expect to see a small, white woman,...

R: Right. Right.

S: ... because I had done all these things and was really

very well known all over the country. And so he was just

flabbergasted! [laughter] Poor man! [laughter] Yes. So... but we

did have this notion that, you-k we did do a lot of it

ourselves, and we did... had this notion that, vIdSTRzw, once we

established the procedure, other people could do it,...

R: Yes.


8-37







Anita Spring


S: ... could do those procedures. And the major things

that stuck, as I said, were the credit program, the gender

disaggregation of all sorts and bodies of data at every level,

and the notion that women had to be built into government policy,

five-year plans. Yes, the women's programs section, YOU.know, had

its thing that it accomplished, but that there might be other

spinoffs in other units. And by the way, that whole experience

was a big setup for what I did at FAO.

R: Yes.

S: FAO is the Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN,

and it's the largest of the specialized UN agencies.

R: I....

S: But we'll get to that.

R: Yes. And I also just wanted to ask you to clarify

t-hg=^ if you want to talk more about or have any ideas about why

it was that the University of Florida group decided that the

gender issue was not an important....

S: Oh. This is very political. The head of the

international programs in the College of Agriculture just pooh-

poohed the subject. He was a soil scientist. And it's not only

gender; it was farming systems as well as....

R: Oh, I... that's right.


8-38







Anita Spring


S: It was both.

R: You did say that. Yes.

S: It was actually both.

R: Yes.

S: And, y~ZnETow, there has always been this tension

between people who do farming systems, which is to say, the

process in which you really interact with the farmers as well as

with the researchers, and there's, Ttrknew, feedback between

technologies and so forth. And it's very local level, and it's

very comfortable stuff for anthropologist by the way...

R: Yes. Yes.

S: ... a&nthose who are commodity oriented and the elites

of agriculture, the breeders.

R: Well, is also... is another way to describe it, is it

one of sort of a very abstract com .had-. h e-commodity end is

more abstract...

S.---No. b.

R K.

S: No. Not... no, not at all.

R: All right. Right.

S: For example, a farm household grows maize, a little bit

of some traditional millet and sorghum, some vegetables; it has


8-39


~> y .- ;







Anita Spring


certain kinds of livestock. Now, a farming systems person comes

in, looks at all the commodities, looks at all the ones I've just

mentioned. Each one is a commodity.

R: Right.

S: OK. Looks at the household as sort of the center of

that farming universe, looks at who does what, gender division of

labor, looks at how the income from maize supports the livestock,

or the income from selling the cows supports so-and-so's school

fees. Puts it all together as a system,...

R: All right.

S: ... looks at how the household then relates to the

external world: Does it get credit? Does itgat_ k n, sell at

the market? And puts it all into a system analysis; finds out the

technical constraints. For example, there may be a crop pest, or

they can't get the crop to market because the roads are bad, or

the technology that they've been using to grow a particular crop

is outdated, or the farm machinery is wrong. And then tries to

come up with technical solutions that will work within the

context.

R: Right.

S: A commodity specialist goes to every farm and just

looks at what they're doing with corn.


8-40







Anita Spring


R: Right. OK.

S: So that's the tension.

R: Right.

S: And t-h't -- --- s- the farming systems people....

R: And are both perspectives equally entrenched in the

colleges of agriculture?

S: That's a good question. No. The commodity perspective

is the major and dominant perspective. Yodu-.= ,.Very

specialized. The horticulturists are looking at y-^=En citrus.

And.



the agronomists are looking at the grain crops. And

that enables them to then look at, yoru4Tew,-what's happening

with wheat in the entire area.

R: Yes.

S: They could give a damn that farmer A is such a small

wheat grower, because the soils are not .. or he -es...L-y

kn=)ew.. or she has an input problem, and farmer B has a pest

problem, and farmer C ha$.. yaieSEW. And it's linked up because

they're c~d-i their rotation with maize was wrong.

R: Yes.

S: n they're just so focused on the commodity, and


8-41







Anita Spring


that's really what happens mostly around the world, is the focus

on the commodity. The farming systems perspective is the odd one.

R: Right. And is it newer?

S: It's much newer. It's much newer. Some say it grew out

of the old farm management. But it really gained momentum seQ-di

in the mid-1970s, toward the end of the 19 ', and then it became

a dirty word.

R: Right.

S: And government shied away from it. Malawi changed from

the nomenclature, "farming systems," to "adaptive research." It

ra _g kng -_d was very hard for people to understand that it

was a household-based system and that everything on the farm

counted. And=- ut the thing is, I'm such a convert to that

perspective and have spent so much time on that methodology

myself that I only see it that way.

R: Yes.

S: AaZd i'gE ai s hard for me.. -to m :L-. to ay

look at the idea that, "Well, we'll go down to the research

station. We'll get the best technology in terms of yield, and

then we'll just take that out to the farmers. But we won't really

test it under their conditions and under their constraints,

because we know what's best,_ea, y."


8-42







Anita Spring


R: So where did the impetus come from for beginning to

look at systems? EIda I know there was a problem, but, I mean,

what disciplines, ..?

S: Agricultural economics, for the most par



S And then they were joined by...
S.-And then they were joined by...

R: In the 1970s...?

S: ...dty at the end, yes.

R: Yes.

S: Mid-1970s, 1980s....

R: And was there close partnership with anthropologists

all along?

S: No, not particularly. Anthropologists jumped in in a

number of places that the focus on the household and then gender.

You know, I spearheaded, along with two colleagues, that

conference on gender and farming systems, and that book that I

have....

R: And what year was that?

S: That was 1986...



S 7~. at the University of Florida. And the book that

came from that, which was published in 1988, is called Gender


8-43







Anita Spring


Issues and Farming Systems Research and Extension And to the

best of my knowledge, Lhatwas the Westview Pres there's never

been another, zEsw, one.-kJi a- updating that. And it should

be. A-lthogh .- h .

R: But it's time, isn't it?

S: It is time. Although there was a large literature,

large literature, of writings on women and farming systems.

There's a two-volume set of case examples from 1991 by

Feldstein and Poats~g oaPoeaLbt and .lddt.i.- that.. -it

doesn't update it exactly, but it goes off in a case study

direction. Maybe it does update it [Laughter]. But anyway,

there's a lot of stuff published on it.

R: Yes.

S: Anyway, what I wanted to tell you is that the Malawi

project was evaluated very highly. Remember that it was during

the decade for women. Remember 1975 to 1985... 1975 fa It I-rrT

was the first conference that started off the decade for women.

This was a big hoopla; it was in Mexico City.

R: Yes. Yes.

S: There was a mid conference year of 1980 in Copenhagen,

and then in 1985, at the end of the decade, there was the meeting

in Nairobi. And then in 1995... l'c-Tj- ]ec.. _--t-hpyru a11


8-44







Anita Spring


S: \ there was the big meeting in Beijing.




S-

5: Yes. But the major decade, the first... the UN

announced "a decade for women," and this is when all this women

in development stuff was really coming to the fore and actually

required to be reported upon by various countries and

governments. So 1975 to 1985 was the decade for women from the

United Nations, and the project was initially evaluated in the

first evaluation as the best project that had been done in

agriculture for women.

R: Wow.



..es

S: So it was well known. It was very successful in the

country of Malawi, as I just explained some of the reasons. And I

was invited in 1983, about 4h.9ft.- three months after I had come

back, to go to an expert consultation on food production in Rome

for FAO as a participant.

R: Yes.


8-45







Anita Spring


S: I went, and not only was I a participant, but I became

a rapporteur. I stayed late and worked weekends and so forth and

so on and helped write the major documents and then got to

present them back to the delegates. And these were people from

all over the planet, apnF-e

R: Yes.

S: And I just think I understood the subject so well and

was just used to being in that public space because of the Malawi

thing that I just did it. I wa~sn' you know, and- hen,- ynn

k~ae --hey needed people to do that, and I just did it, and I was

able to make the presentation. And so people at FAO saw who I

was....

R: Right.

S: OK. That was the first thing. The second was VA st in

the 1980s, --T -LT-7. -.-- TT-i -nc'.: hnthe Office of

Technology Assessment, which was the research arm for the U.S.

Congress...-- -I-Tnp r r; I'd have to look it up-#what year

it was created. It was congressionally constituted and paid for
0 oVt 7 re-s S e S%&-O-P
through,- ygg is, allocations. A&A I believe it was terminated
A
just a couple of years ago, but for many years, twenty years

or....


R: So it was a sunset program? I mean, it....


8-46







Anita Spring


S_ =a_-N---.

R: _.__o, it -acnste?

S: No. No. No, it was not supposed to be....

R: It was just terminated... oh, OK.

S: I think the Republicans managed to terminate it right

before Clinton got in or something. It was something like...of

that variety.

R: Yes.

S: Or to reduce it. It may still be going; I'm not sure.

Anyway, i3Ej when I say it was the research arm, it was

constituted to provide policy advice and information of the most

technical sort to members of Congress. And it had the ability to

summon anybody in America and elsewhere for its panels, and it

had the ability to contract anybody anywhere to write papers,

white papers, giving information or analyzing something.

R: Yes.

S: It did both domestic and international. J= me.ia,\en

they weed J-fy to make a decision, St-!i- the early stuff L-*-

on the environment or what was happening with wildlife, r3-b-e

e .-you .me E -our teorie, in the United States or water

quality in the United States, they constituted panels of experts,

they prepared these documents, and then they gave them to members


8-47







Anita Spring 8-48


of Congress for their staff members and the Cngjr~~is ^m2l--n

the-=enreaeand th- House to use in terms of,-cyw, making

decisions. They produced documents in three forms. One was the

full report, which could be several hundred pages in length. The

second was a twenty-five-page summary, and third was like a page

or two description.

R: Yes.

S: OK? So as you got busier, I suppose you read less.

R: Yes. Yes.

S: The congressional staffers, yeko were reading the

350-page documents.

R: Right.

S: OK. I got to work, and I, to the best knowledge, am the

only person on all three panels and projects that were related to

Africa.

R: Now, who are the body of people that would select...

would call you, for instance?

S: GQMWgE1 he OTA had a staff...



IV ;Who were, yp==u w, Ph.D.'s....

R: In an office and....

S: mt hey had offices and nice conference rooms an yu







Anita Spring


krhow, -'Would... you u-knew~tHey'd bring people to Washington. Yo=

J-kug I turned to the right in one of the conferences, and they

wanted organic farming represented. Here's Robert Rodale sitting

next to me.

R: I see.



R" ^-crr~eat

S: I turn to the left; they wanted Elliott Berg [~p -.

[laughter]

R: Yes.

S: ... from the.... [laughter] He was there.

R: Yes. Yes.

S: You know. They could bring anybody they wanted.






R: Ye.

S: They thought, "Well, maybe we need a South African

perspective," You know. Boom! Somebody'd be there from South

Africa who was the expert on something, if theiy had the money to

_pay- They didn't pay a lot. I think, yt~ g it was an

honorarium of a couple hundred dollars a day, and they paid for

your expenses. And, Lga w, sometimes you got to stay at a


8-49







Anita Spring


really nice hotel,~y.. you know, they were... They would

have Senator Kennedy come for an evening reception, because in

Washington they will always have these receptions right after

work. People don't go home and come back.

R: Right.

S: $S;D L -. I wanted a tour of the Congress, Or/in

Hatch's office arranged it for me. Ve=41 mke. It was bipartisan.

OTA was governed by a committee, a congressional committee, so

Kennedy, Hatch...they were the governing body who oversaw the

unit. It was kind of neat.

R: Yes.

S: Anyway, they had three of them. The first two were

focused on what was our development program in Africa in these

different countries, and where was it going.. I think it was

called "Africa Tomorrow." And it was broken up into sections, so,

for example, if a bill were to come to Congress asking about

whether the Office of Women and Development should be continued

to be funded in AID, or if AID should continue, easa ,e-mt, with

its allocations for development work in Africa or, y~e-mkno*w PLO

480 in Egypt, or, ,yegEgypt is a larger partner than all

the sub-Saharan African countries) [laughter] the information

would be there, and it could be in a packaged format that would


8-50







Anita Spring


not give the information but state, ye=5kaew, "In terms of such-

and-such a policy, here are some of the alternatives." So it was

.a y beautifully constructed.,-:& ere were two panels like

that, and they would get people to come, and we would have these

big round tables. aFe gerything was recorded and-LttL kind uf-

thig:_-3 people were asked to comment on various btdctg.

Sometimes they were asked to write position papers. I remember

having to write my views on five questions before I went to a

panel meeting.

R: Right.

S: They would also commission other people who were not on

the panel.... For example, they'd have twelve people on the

panel, and I would be one of the twelve. And not only would we

write our own position papers on various aspects, but we would

discuss these topics in the meeting. In addition to that, they

would then bring in these white papers as background reading, or

they would bring in.. qgQ-r-hy-a Ill itg the people who

wrote the papers for us to pull more information, so we could

write or advise in our reports. A~d hen they would have their

own staff of people who would be taking all these materials, and

I might write a part, a few pages, and somebody else. They might

like part of my statement or somebody.... Adi ttrey would start


8-51







Anita Spring


compiling them and synthesizing what we had to say and what had

written.

R: And what's the first one you worked on?

S: I'm trying to remember the names. One, I believe, was

called "Policy Recommendations on Africa." The other one was

called "Africa Tomorrow."

R: And the year... do you remember the year?

S: The first one was a two-year

assignment, 1984 to 1986.

R: Yes.

S: 0~. The second one was something in 1986, a much more

finite thing. And the third one was completely different. It

turns out, and not many people are aware of this, that in

addition to USAID, which is a bilateral development agency--in

other words, it works with a country, as the United States on one

side and the country on the other side, and it's government to

government in terms of projects, approving it, and then

constituted within, say, a particular sector or sectors in the

country--there was also another congressionally funded

institur- r wr agency, I t _h ..jnF- -1 -called the African

Development Foundation. And it was funded at a much, much lesser

level, i4ke-2 a $10 million [ten-million-dollar] or $5 million


8-52







Anita Spring


[five-million-dollar] budget p'ige a whereas a._-, r
6ci-ect Ah-_
ccfidh=as e a USAID project--one project wgg $10 million, and that
15
;Jte not even a big one.

R: Might be the feasibility..






But I think ADF had a budget of, rtrdomr, in the

single digit or $10 million or something like that for a year,

range. But instead of having to deal with governments, it could

be a more people-to-people or NGO __ of projects, small

projects. Atd Llike USAID with its massive bureaucracy, it had a

few people and a lot of African Americans, and the head of it

was... I'll -think of his na

R s.

S: I j him in W..hingto. Leonard Robinson[sp;-s.



S: ,-w- Fheo head of--t--very astute, y~au:kpw, the

Jesse Jackson of development [laughter] ... kind of guy. Anyway,

Congress wanted ADF evaluated. So it turned to the Office of

Technology Assessment to provide the evaluation, so Congress

would know what to do.

R: Right. Right.


8-53







Anita Spring


S: And I was asked to not only sit on the evaluation in

the same similar kind of capacity... I don't know how many... I

don't remember...how many people they had. Well, I do--I guess it

was still like around ten or something like that.

R: Yes.

S: But in addition, they weren't only going to __-_

evaluate it from the vantage point of Washington, but they were

going to send out three teams to Africa to &ait=y evaluate

projects and talk to government officials.

R: Yes.

S: So they sent one to southern Africa, one to east

Africa, and one to west Africa. And the teams were very

interestingly constructed. O==e~arre, w had elaborate briefings

in Washington, so we were all on the same wavelength in terms of

data collection, and it wasn't going to be apples and oranges

that we were evaluating. We had debriefings; we had extensive

reports that we had to write. Tta- t, was really quite an

evaluation.

R: Did you... were you extremely comfortable and confident

in the way the evaluation was... in the way the data...



Ri- > was being collected?


8-54








Anita Spring


S: Yes.

R: Yes. So this is really high-level....

S: It was high-level stuff, -r.

R: Quality....

S: Big time. Yes. Big-time quality.




And I, of course, very concerned a10 h.,- gender.a

End of Tape 8

End of Tape 8

*


8-55




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