Title: Washoe ethnographer Anita Spring transcription of taped interview
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Title: Washoe ethnographer Anita Spring transcription of taped interview
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Anita Spring


INTERVIEWER : Meredith (Penny) Rucks

DATE : 1/15/99

TAPE : 2

SUBJECT : Washoe Ethnographers

TRANSCRIBER : Linda Sommer

AUDIT-EDITOR : Penny Rucks






Meredith (Penny) Rucks: OK. So when you're... when you had

the after school..

nita Sprin g/. S-==-So....

SR--- .-thing in Philadelphia, that was also to pay to

college? I mean....

Well, I was kind of young then. .




S: .7. probably not. But all the stuff in Berkeley and.



: ... in California, that was all to contribute to

college.

R: Yes.

S: So when I went for my master's degree.j yipmy parents

helped me.


2-1










Anita Spring


Yes
R* Yes

S: Of course.

SYe.

S: They paid for the dorm and, you-n-w, all kinds of

thing fnTLz-.

es.

... so went for the master's degree, and I think that

they were in full agreement. I think my father was a little

disappointed...



S: .J2that I wasn't going to do the chemistry, but he had

bHe--id al jRtL as I. T--mea-, I told him I wanted to do chemistry

in the service of preservation of artifacts,.

R:

S: ...?so he was keen,.

R: ,Yo Y -.

S: -... that he thought that was a wonderful idea.

R: Yes.

S: So that was it.

R: Well, I still do. I can see the.... [laughter]

S: OK. So he liked that idea. So they helped me still a

little bit, and that's why I had to work in the museum.


2-2










Anita Spring


R: Got it..All right.

S: Actually, my first job was working at Wells Fargo Bank

on the shift from 6:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m.

R: Wow!

S: So it was 6:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m.; then stay up several

hours afterwards; then start... go to graduate school classes

between like noon and 5:00.

R: Yes.

S: Waj~eo@ And the job... and I think I did it for about

a term, five or six months. The job, as I have looked back over
-Ul tce4j# Cs a ct
it these years, was extraordinary. You had to balance.. =:au

Ig hi'n you make a deposit at the bank?

R: Yes.

S: You give them the deposit slip, like from your checking

account

Ses.

8r A for your savings accounIt And you w e in what the

deposit... .nd then it is followed by the checks.

R: Right.

S: ~!~iU his was a job in which you balanced the cover pagelt,/ft,

the debits and the credits.

R: Yes.


2-3










Anita Spring


Pa-----s .

S: A Igkeyboard of this size, -r -- 1- -- two-by-

three-foot...

R-

I ... keyboard in front of you with numbers and an

encod~ to the put the magnetic e ... encoding on the

check. ou had to do five thousand items minimum in a shift.

R: Oh, my.

S: So you would pick up something, read... and, of course,

prm9iji3 the numbers were... ..-- i.rkw, I could look at numbers

all day.



> That was not a hard part.



S: I mean. thick wac net-ad,-bt ....

R: Tedious[?].

S: And you wou ...



S j..3? punch in the numbers,...



S: put the check through for the first cover page,


2-4










Anita Spring 2-5


which would be the deposit sli

R.-----Yes"

ing,...

R.

S -r and then tL-gt whatever it was--whether it was
A
one item or ten items or a hundred items-...



S.-* .. to balance it and make sure that it balanced and

encode each item. So essentially--I don't know how to describe

this in words--your right hand was moving over the keyboard; your

left hand was feeding i otohe encoding machine the actual,
A -
physical item; and then you were eyeballing it all to make sure

that it all balanced out.

Ps.

And you got bonuses if you went over five thousand

items in a five-hour shift.

R: Yes.

S: So can you imagine the speed. .



S_ P.. that you had to move along?'




4 Well, I will never forget...










Anita Spring


-,-[-iautght er

6--- .,' that one time, after I'd been doing it for a while,

somebody came over to chitchat, to talk with me.



S: ?And I said, all the while with the right going like

that and the left hand going like tt and the items flying

through at this incredible pace,...

R: Yes.

S: ... "Don't talk to me. I'm part of the machine."

R: [laughter]

S: I then realized what I said and stopped dead in my

tracks!

R: That is great! What a moment!

S: And I feelt I~ha--w what a moment is right I feel like

I have an ~SzI Iae people doing factory work.. o -
A
R: Oh.... Yes.

S: ... in developing countries and all this routinized,

repetitive, timed, accounted



.. kinds of work. I can really relate to it and

understand what it does to people. And, you know, the whole

export sector, the computer stuff, the garment industry, the


2-6










Anita Spring


sewing...



... in these bathing suit, anrd all this kind -f -st-ff

-I really can understand the nature of that,..



S: ... because I had that.V Mf l-



S: .. a.a for six months, but, ye s.

R: And what a bigger impact it would have had on you if

you really hadn't seen an alternative for yourself.



I mean, you're doing this so you can make money to go

to school.

S: Oh, yes. I mean, I'm staying up afterwards and hanging

out with friends and...



.'- Ci having a grand old time and going to graduate

school during the day. It was kind of an arduous schedule,

but....

R: But the energy of youth--isn't that incredible? You

could do it all! Oh, my....

S: [laughter] Because you could do it all. And then I.4UCLd. _


2-7










Anita Spring


R: A part of the machine! [laughter]

S: Yes. And then I got the job at the museum,.



S: first as a helper and then running it.



S. So that took me all through the rest of my career.



S: ... 2n terms of work.

R: .~ San Francisco State...

S: Yes. So those are the only two...



S: >thats I had to work at there.

R: What happened then? Then what happened when you... oh,

so your parents are supportive up to a point, but, of course,

you're earning your own money to get through....

S: Yes. Then I'm really earning. And unfortunately, my

parents... I started at San Francisco State in, what was it?...

1963. I think that's right. My parents moved from California to

Atlanta,6e -X,


2-8










Anita Spring 2-9


4.- / .. which was still the deep South.



S: ...in the 1960s.

R: Sure. You bet.

S: And I was in Calif... left in California, which was

fine with me. I did visit them several times.

R: Yes.

S: They then went through a divorce in 1967



So they were pretty occupied with other things.

R: Yes. Yes.



R: And at this point... is it fair also, Anita, to say

that at this point in your life, maybe....

S: lg I felt very grown up.

R: )Yesa.. y re = L,.-. Now, jaeat are your sister (yom

yoaa-sa-fEi S watching you with interest, awe, criticism, or what

at this point?



Or are you relating much to them?

S: No. Well, one was eleven years younger. So....

n -: ],1jI which 4-s ....










Anita Spring


R: Ye

J She other one was at UC ..




E -). by this point.

R: Yes. And doing art, right?

S: And studying art and involved in her life.

R: Right.

S: So I think she was OK, and it... she looked like she

was on anic




.- .career.

R: So you're sort of on your own trajectory at this point?








ou've started....

S: And feeling that I... yes, I... well, I really felt I

was on my own trajectory from the time I was sixteen and a half.




R: It sounds like it.

S: Yes.


2-10










Anita Spring


S: I just felt that way.

R: So you were not looking for approval or anything at

this point from your parents....

S: No. See, my mother, for example, was always frustrated

by the fact that she did not go to college, because her family

thought that college was only for males.

R: Right. And she was also a depression-era... right?

S: Depression. Exactly.

R: Right.

S: And, of course, the one brother was a dud when it came

to school. He -. that's the last thing he cared about.

R: Yes.

S: So the three girls who came first, I suspect that at

least two of them, if not all three, would have....

R: Would have....

S: They're all very sharp women.

R: Yes.

S: In fact, I saw two of them... the two remaining ones;

my mother passed away, but I saw her two sisters just last year.


2-11










Anita Spring


And I mean, they're smart as a tack,...



.. you know, and they would have been great college

material, but they never had the opportunity. And my mother

always took little courses and was a voracious reader and

collector of books.



S: GBut she did have the notion that women should be in

a... in certain professions.



-. So they're sort of odd bedfellows. Let me tell you the

profession she thought I should be in: of course, if her daughter

turned out to be a doctor, what else could she have wanted?

R: [laughter]

S: A doctor was good. Nurse was never mentioned.

R: But doctor. So... yes.

S: That... I don't know how she thought I was going to be

a doctor, but... an M.D. doctor.

R: Now, were there medical people in her family?

S: No. No.

R: It was just a goal that....

S: No. She came from an immigrant family. Her parents had


2-12










Anita Spring


come as teenagers to America right before... right, actually, at

the very beginning of World War I.

R: Now, is that the part of the family that's 'th. is

o-Lithuanian?

S: Yes.



s: l-Rssia, Poland, Lithuania.

R: Yes.

S: It's that whole complex there.

R-- Yes.



R: So she was just ambitious for you to be..



R: -I mean, just because it would have been so cool.

[laughter] _

S: Ge=:-t. So here are the careers, I mean, as I think

back: teacher, of course.



S: And they make no sense. O


c^---V- ,P6

One was be a doctor, but there was no... ow was I

going to get..? The other, be a teacher
A


2-13










Anita Spring


Sj and the third was be involved in food, lse run a

restaurant.

R: Yes. Oh, that's great! [laughter] So I can see, if

we're just talking about maternal influence, being an

anthropologist was your only solution. [laughter] Especially in

the medical field. You know, you've incorporated all of it.

S: Yes.

R: That's great.

S: And whereas my father was very keen on the fact that I

wanted to do the high school chemistry,..



S: .-Pbecause that did the profession, and then the

teaching was still He. .s ssa -. .-4tc4-C-9 -- 1 e P-/4

R: So was the message.. y. ~d y u.. m

t also seems to be coming clear is the message was distinctly

that you should be independent; you should have your own means of

income.

S: Yes. Well....

R: The idea wasn't like some women were raised, that they

were to make a good marriage.

S: Yes. No, that was very strongacL.. e


2-14










Anita Spring


gs The marriage thing was very strong-.



S: And I wouldn't say it was the independent income.

R: Right.

S: I would say it was the focus on education, that

education would lead to doing something.



S: 7 lightly different.

R: Yes, it is. And it's also... is it also part of ..



~=-o. .t you had a obligation to the society around

you? Was there any of that?

S: W- tf parents were very socially conscious

in ter .



S>... of, Pyos;eow, what are the major issues of the day)

R: Were they liberal?

S: Yes.

R: Politically liberal?

S: Yes.

EP=I YP


2-15










Anita Spring


S9~----e---.

R-~---Yes .

S: .mes My father had done tremendous work for the war

efforts. He was never drafted but hr was working as a

chemist and had solve




A .---- some major problem for making ammunition, in terms

of solutions o~-=-e et can decoribe thi3 bottCr th- t
PAO C"oe-rad cIkwna-
found a way to dilute the soluti hat allowed the ammunition to
A
be manufactured...



S: ... more effectively..



/d'u .. .during the war...



S: ?.. through chemistry.

R: Yes.






S: So he really believed in the efficacy of taking

scientific knowledge and using it in the service of his

government and to help peopleanci tha-E kin-d u---E-Lf. So he


2-16









Anita Spring


really did believe that.

R: Yes. Dd=E c fl&~ I don't know why this is a logical

next question, but it just struck me--did he have opinions? Was

it discussed in your house about the atomic bomb?

S: It wasn't discussed. I don't recall it.

R: I was just thinking.



R: ./ in terms of science.

S: Yes. No. It wasn't...I don't know



S: Chat was an earlier period



*: :-2I do recall--and this is important--he never wanted his

wife to work.

R: That is important.

S: In fact, this is a very big theme with him. He's always

thought that a man should support a woman, his wife. And so/l

eKf-i at the beginning, the idea, I think, was to just have

the daughters educated, so they could have these professions, but

I don't think there was any realization ~. it would actually

turn out at that point, and...


2/


2-17









Anita Spring



another story. That they would be doing it to support

themselves.



A or have it as a fall-back position. And he always

prevented my mother from working. She wanted to work.

R: Do you suppose... and I want to come back to that

subject, too, but do you suppose, had your father... had there

been boys in your family, had you had brothers, that you would

have had less...

S: Of a chance?

R: ... support? Yes.

S: You bet.





R: I think that's critical. Yes.

S: Yes. And as I've looked back over it, I mean, my

sisters and I have discussed this.



$~ )ind we all agree that we were lucky as hell,

because.... 1\


2-18










Anita Spring


-r (-Not to have any boys, because we could have really been

aced out. Yes.

R: I can see that.

S: Yes.

R: That's really... it's really interesting, and it's

something I hadn't really thought of. So you said...



now, to go back to your mother, you said that she

had always wanted to work.

S: She wanted to go to college; she wanted to work.



S: 4ou know, she was frustrated as heck



S: ;nd she took it out by reading a lot,.



S: and she always valued education and anything

intellectual.

R: Yes.

S: And it's really funny... my father's two wives

afterwards have been anti-intellectuals, not non-intellectuals,


2-19










Anita Spring


but literally disdaining intellectual thought, while at the same

time, sitting there kind of buttering him up in. ...... My

father is very intellectual. So it's a most peculiar combo.

R: Yes, it is.

S: I'm horrified by it.



: Absolutely horrified. But that's another story. Let's

talk about and get back to the.... [laughter]

R: Yes. Now, back to John Adair -fg ..?

Jon Adalr.



S: Right. One of the things he did, he gave cameras to the

Indians, and he let them film what they saw as important. And I

remember seeing one of the first films; it was screened at the

American Anthropological Association meeting. And it was a

twenty-minute film. The first eighteen minutes of it was a Navajo

Indian walking from place A to B.



5: He was going to get the materials for his bracelet or

whatever he was going to make. [laughter]



"S-/ He was one of the silversmiths.


2-20









Anita Spring


R: Yes.

S: And the last two minutes was, kow,; something to do

with the materials and the design or something like that.



: f course, this was a mindblower, because, sW

knQy, from a western point of view, we would have gotten right

down to, pi;RIRRw, "Let's make the bracelet."

R: Yes. That's a wonderful.... I haven't heard that story,

and that is really evocative, isn't it?

S: Yes. I mean, it does... it kind of fits with the

emphasis on verbs instead of nouns ...



... American Indian languages..



... and the being, doing, getting....

R: Yes. The process...




S: Yes. Yes.

R: Basket making,...

S: Yes.

R: ... all of that

-^


2-21










Anita Spring


R: Oh, that's fascinating.

S: So that was really very fascinating.



S ;___Sd..but anyway, I don't....

R: So.were you a student of his at this.time?

S: I was... I worked with all these people.



: Tri [?] .. I had moved away from the archaeology

side pretty much.



But, w y.ow. ]_'w 'il ... James

Hirabati a~ for this study. And David Gamble..



S. was also there, had worked in st Africa.

did the methods course and the Africa course, so I took those

course ...



x: t, too.

R: Because I've been wanting to track back on how you got

to Africa....

S: Yes. You asked about the African...


2-22










Anita Spring


Interest and where that got sparked.

R: Yes.

S: So he was a British social anthropologist who was also

teaching at San Francisco State.

R: The methods course. OK.

S: And he taught ~a-th -... both a methods course and a

course on Africa. I don't remember the titles or whatever,

but....

R: Oh, but you know... I'm going to skip back, and forgive

me, but I forgot to follow up on what happened after you went to

New Mexico. You actually interviewed....

S: Oh. Oh.

R: Yes.

S: I did interview.., in fact, I have a few photographs. I

did... everythingEt4 ... everything is photographed.

And to this day,...

R: Great!

S: ... I mean, I could not believe that I left my camera

at home this morning, but other people had cameras, and I said,

"Keep taking pictures!"

R M~~~=~P~


2-23













S: I mean, I'Im j-u :.. and I've gotten to the... you know,

I used to have all this great photographic equipment with lenses

and...



filters. Now, I have two idiot cameras, but I carry

- with me all the time...




thml wil.h m morning, noon, and night. And I still

have all kinds of jillions of pictures.



,R1 %yway, I went and sat in the homes of several of the

Zuni silversmiths....

R: This is completely on your own without introductions or



S: Yes. Well, I went to visit a friend, and he had bought

some pawn stuff at one of the trading. S and I f >

R<-OK. So you....

S: .< -! someS e6m ... I don't remember exactly,..

.,B----...Yes.

-- ..7 but somehow I found my way into some people's

houses. I have a..

-R--- -ygsL.


Anita Spring


2-24










Anita Spring


S: ... way to do that anywhere I am on the planet, so...!

[laughter]

R: Yes. No, it's great. It's... but it is interesting

how....

S: And sat there and watched this man work and took
A
photographs and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, w *=-I- John Adair,

for reasons I do not know, even though he always greets me

warmly, he and his wife and so forth, at one point decided that

they didn't want me to do the restudy. And I don't know whether

that meant that they didn't want it done; they found a Ph.D.

student as opposed to just a master student;...



S: ... they wanted a man, not a woman.



-S 2.. t was put off till next year when he could apply

for a grant--I have no ide .

i -ght. .

S: .. any of the reasons



S: They were never given to me.

R: Right.

S: Aind...-- ut I... --mean, I don't remember feeling


2-25










Anita Spring


terrible about it.

R: Right.

S: I thought it would be a really interesting thing to do.

R: Sounds interesting.

S: I had read all the literature...



.. on those two ethnic groups and everything to do

with silversmithing, and I mean, I really had done a lot of

reading on....

R: When you say two, you mean Zuni and Navajo?

S: Ye .



S: )And I was pretty interested in American Indians.



S: So I was doing a lot of reading on that.

P- But tha-...



R: ... was that your first real encounter with western

Indians?

S: Well, the... archaeology.

R: Yes.

S: We had to read all the ethnography....


2-26










Anita Spring


R: Oh, but I meant living... I meant meeting...

S: Oh, a real live person.

R: ... and going into community. Yes. Yes.

S: I don't know. San Francisco was a real diverse.



S: .t. }1J between the museum.



S: .. nd the exhibit. Maybe I...

R: ... but Zuni land... I mean, I'm just wondering if it

struck you were actually there..

S: Oh, actually going there.

R: I mean, if it actually...

S: Yes. Yes. Yes.

S Except, of course, see, we're just running around

California. There are Indians everywhere, really, kind of.



S: I mean,... except, yes. I don't remember being in awe

or struck by anything. When I went to the Zuni....

R: Like, "Oh, they're really here," or....

S: Yes. No.") Cr Lc


!, "Oh, yes. Well, this group of Zuni... I'm going


2-27










Anita Spring


to their houses." [laughter]

R: Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

S: OK. Yes. No, I don't remember.... being too awestruck.






R: So you got... so you'd come, and for whatever reason

had....

S: For whatever reason, that project's off. And it could

have been something real simple.

R: Yes.

S: I didn't try to interpret it,...



S: .. particularly. And E r d -.. y ... I had to

study for my exams or whatever...

R: Right.

S: ...you know, that kind of stuff.

R: Right. So you....

S: And I was running the museum, so..



S: 27?. I was pretty busy.



S: Yes. And I wanted to grad. -_g-=kaaiw. And then I do


2-28










Anita Spring


not recall, but I suppose, whether a professor told me or I read

1 L ."...mian announcement, and I applied for the field school.

R: Yes.

S: I was accepted. So that became what I was going to do

my master's on. I already knew that.n =a I'd go for the

summer, collect, there, and then write ,% upg, a -=Wt-r. .

R: So you... how many... aind~~im he other students... I

mean, this is a question about the field school, is because I

didn't really realize that there were... I'm not sure if there

were any other students who actually did master's thesis based on

their fieldwork.

S: Didn't Ed Montgomery? I'm under the impression that

he....

R: I don't know I''~Em l n t....



I haven't looked into him very thoroughly








R: )And Don Handelman did, of course. But....

S: Yes. Yes. The other ones did Paiutes and Utes.

R: But the expectation of that field school... was the


2-29










Anita Spring


field school set up for people doing their master's, or was it

just set up for people doing ethnographic technique?

S: You know, I do not know the answer. I think it was....

R: I'll find out.

S: Yes. I'd like to know that, because, you know,

sometimes when you're doing something, you just think everybody's

doing something?

R: Yes.

S: I thought everybody got their master's degrees out of

it. [laughter]

R: Yes. Yes.

S: But obviously, that's probably not tru)



:: kSo I never gave it a second thought.

R: Yes. Because I thought the expectation that you could

do your... go in to have a field school, to be learning

techniques, at the same time seriously gathering data for a

thesis, was challenging.




R: Let's put it that way.

S: Maybe that is why I got....

R: Because, you know, when you go to archaeology field


2-30










Anita Spring 2-31


school, you're not expected...

S: Yes. Exactly.

R: ... you're not working on a thesis.

S: Exactly. Maybe that is why I felt that I had to get

more.




S: Like, I don't remember... I mean, we were in Nevada;

there's gambling; there are shows; there's...



SI don't remember doing any of that








-~5 1 probably once looked at a slot machine in a

supermarket.-= -



S: rn!i kLow. I don't ever remember taking off weekends

or....

R: Yes. Well, the volume of data you got... I mean, to me,

it's extremely impressive. It's....

S: So I must have felt that I needed much more than just

the field technique, because I was doing the master's degree.










Anita Spring


R: Yes. So when you... and they knew when they took you

that you were going to....

S: I don't know the answer to that.

R: Yes. Like... I'll do a little more digging on that of

the file....

S: Do they have the applications? Did they save any of

that stuff on the field school?

R: Yes. And that there's a whole ,...

S: It would be so interesting to see....

R: ... and I haven't dug into it yet.






S: Because you have three... is it three people...



S: ... who worked in the field school.



S:-- eon ....

R: Don Handleman and Elizabeth Wendt, who was Betty Beruti

at the time?

S: Yes.


STe-----s.


2-32










Anita Spring 2-33


P- YeR

S: And there as the one person from the pre....

R: Oh, and Brooke Mordy.

S: Brooke Mordy.



I cited her in my master's thesis.



SShe was the year before.

R: Yes.

S: I never met her.



6. But, anyway, y It would be interesting, if you find

those applications, G5F .



S: -- because we probably had to say wh ...



Z- Z we were interested.

R: Yes. Now, I did have.., on the field school, I did...

there is a letter in your papers that you'd written someone named

Gordon about writing a... about perhaps studying the Paiute.

S: Well, I have no recollection.

R: I will defer that question, because I'll let you look. I









Anita Spring 2-34


should have shown that to you.

S: Yes. Look at that, yes!



Well, I remember...q g I didn't want to go to Mexic



And where was the third one. dn't remember.

R: I don't remember either.

S: But I knew I wanted to do American Indians.



S And.the asin was very interesting, .



S: ..7 because it's a logical thing from California. See,

I'd work.

t.

.- on Indians in California. I'd done the Zunis, so the

Pasin was just like fascinating.

R: Yes. Yes. Right.

S: And probably I heard more about the Paiute than about the

Washoe,...



e7 ... I mean, just because....

R: That could be.










2-35


Anita Spring


S: Yes. That's all.


R- Ye-S. Lt me.... tap recorde- i turned off



S.. I ....

R: We're back, and we wxTE-fgt-. we'd gotten you almost to

the field school, but I wanted to go -jl back a little bit

to San Francisco State again..



S ... and talk more about David Gamble. You said he was

there....



S: Yes.

S- David Gamble was a British social anthropologist from the

U.K. It was really a very interesting faculty, I thought.

R: Yes
14 ?ek (re cz-r6
S: *Ayh- ria aa, the anthropologist; John Adair was there,

who'd worked in the Southwest and very innovative in hit--,--.some of

his topics; Herbert Lewisjif, who passed away. Not the Lewis who

worked in Ethiopia.

R: Right.

S: Oh, golly. David Gamble, British social anthropology,

who'd worked in 4t Africa. David Ames ,,I, wno ~/, Awhom I













must have also taken a course from, who also worked in st Africa.



S >Diane Lewis ,1, African American, who had worked in...

was it Malaysia or Indonesia, and a few others. And I found them

all fascinating.

R: Yes. No, this sounds like quite a very. dynamic...

S: See, I think you asked. 4 '4

l /.. activelyy involved.

P... nd Colonel Sweat...



S: ... or Sweet. I can't remember. Sweat, I think, who had

been a military guy, who was like an adjunct faculty. I don't think

I took a course from him, but I found him amusing to be on the

faculty. I thought they were all wonderful.

R: Yes.

S: I was impressed with every single one of them. I thought

the research they did was fabulous; I thought they were fabulous as

people in terms of being interesting.

R: Yes.

S: They were always nice and kind to me,..



-'j4 .. as I recall.


Anita Spring


2-36










Anita Spring


R'

S: I was an A student, so, of course, that's always good.



don't know. / s j\ \Wy'C. I just thought they

were great.

R: And do you think... and I don't want to make too big an

issue out of this, but I know for many of us who were in school, we

didn't see women faculty. And I mean, it sounds _____e

S: Oh, and Bonnie Keller[AN was an adjunct. I thought she

was real faculty ;...



S: ... he wasn't.

R*

S: es. We did not see very many women.

R: Yes. But you're not... at this point you're not aware at

all that this is any... a problem for you?

S: No. It's only when I get to Cornell.



S: ... hat the awareness comes in.



S: .C .on that particular topic, and then it never stops.

R: [laughter]


2-37










Anita Spring


R: A rude awakening.

S: Big time.

R: Yes.

S: But, you know, after the... well, I mean, first of all,

it's during the 1960s...



S: ... in San Francisco.

R [l u ter

OK.

: Th s ri t.

OK? You know what's happening. I mean, it's, y pw,

the free speech movement; it's the free love movement; it's the....

YanL w, everything is happening in San Francisco in the 1960s.

And it was fabulous! Both men and women, you know,...



/ 7?.. male and female students were participating. The male

faculty didn't... they didn't seem to really treat the male and

female students.. I didn't really notice it much,.

R ght.

S ..i except for those archaeological things that I've

already mentioned. But...


2-38










Anita Spring


< I really didn't see it. And it was such an exciting

time period.

R: Yes.

S: And, you know, I mean, I didn't get involved in the

movements where the women were serving the coffee, and the men

were... you know. I was a grad I was studying! [laughter]

R: Yes. Yes. Yes.

S: Very supportive of all those things, a ...



S: a.. I3 I don't think we realized that... yraRtUg L

gender division of labor was happening. 6-- FE~.

R: I don't think we did.

S: At that point....

R: Right.

S: And besides, I was a full-fledged masterstudent, so, you

know, I felt like I was right in the... ym- iow. I wasn't being

discriminated against..



Afe ..7 and was doing what I wanted to do.

R: Right.

S: And I was running the museum for god sake...-


2-39










Anita Spring


S: .. and doing exhib d this and that. So I hadn't...

no, I don't think there was even a glimmer that there was anything

amiss.

R: You also... at some point you're focusing on social-

cultural anthropology.



SYou become... it becomes clear to you that that's the

kind of thing...



J .- you want to do.

S: Right. Right.

R: And I think... not the first year... the second year,

when I move into the John Collier class and the classes with David

Ames and David and the social anthropology

courses...



S: 7.. that I move from archaeology.... And as the curator
A
of the museum, I get in... more interested in the ethnographic

collections.

R: Yes.

S: We didn't have the ethnographic collections before I went


2-40









Anita Spring


to the De Young Museum, and...there was some Eskimo stuff



S: ut before I dragged back all this crazy stuff from,-.i-

kp, fi.. both American Indians and the South Pacific that they

were willing to give away. And then my exhibits are getting more

cultural,...

s.

S: /. that, fy, it's all about material culture, but

it's not about archaeology. It's about living cultu So I do an

exhibit on shoes around the world, corsets around the world....

R: Shoes around the world! Great! [laughter]

S: You know, Zuni jewelry from the Southwest,.



S: plant usage u jQn w. Whereas a lot of the... some

of the other ones had been archaeology. Like the petroglyphs and

pictographs... one... ./ unI3Vo- waTQgoer tp/g ske h1 y this

is left over from..

Fr e ars ..

S: .."?the California Chumash.

R: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.

S: So they were sort of....

R: Oh, that's fabulous ( oo(n /<, a /-c/_


dA^e, G&, IL k I, L J


2-41










Anita Spring 2-42


S: Yes. Isn't that wonderful?

R: Yes.

S: So b jSA, I started out with exhibit on

petroglyphs and pictographs, because that was straight out of the,

you know, caves of Europe.

ig eight. ght.

S: .. into the archaeology.

R: Right. Right.

S: Right. And then it evolved to....



End of Side 1, Beginning of Side 2



R: K. Now...

S- Yes

R: ... now 're on.

S: OK.

d....

S: So... by that point--and I've done all the field digs--

I've moved away from that, I've got the project in Hunter's Point,

so I never go back to archaeology.

R: Now, /\when you say social anthropology at this

point, are you aware of an applied.., the applied nature and...















R: .. potential there?

S: No.

R: And the reason I'm asking is because of that project,

which seems so....

S: So applied at the present time.

R: Yes. Yes.

S: No. No. Quite the contrary.



S: The other... and I use this in my classes.



S: I'm very much enamored by the Heisenberg [

principle, which, of course, I've learned as an undergraduate. The

Heisenberg principle is that the observer influences the observed.



S: /~ So when they were trying toga SuaL*o these

particles in particle physics,



They had to shine a light on the particles in order

to be able to see if they were there.



/The fact of shining the light on the particles changed


Anita Spring


2-43










Anita Spring


the position of the particles and, therefore, changed the

configuration and so forth. So what they were observing was not the

real reality.

R: Yes.

S. K.



S: And so their presence was affecting the data and the

subject matter studied. I was very conscious of this idea that the

observer influences the observed--that the anthropologist

influences by her presence what is going on. Since I was very

concerned with that, I didn't want to influence anything. Now, it's

easy to say that... I know I was taking pictures a lot. [laughter]

R: [laughter]

S: And that's... really doesn't make sense. But,

nevertheless, I did... I really believed it,...



S: ..2 I was trying to influence very little. And are

you familiar with the book, Return to Laughter?

R: Oh, yes.


S e


S: OK. Well, that was one of the books, and, yoaew we


2-44









Anita Spring


spent hours thinking about, should she have let that woman die? And

what should she have done? And...



S: ... ar that was really very big in my thinking,.



S: ...that book and- -t,--. -, Laura Bohannan's

description of what had happened in.. a~nd how an anthropologist

really was.... And I was her side.

R: Yes. Yes.

~~s.



S: I really agreed that that ws-- -..,--- try not ..
4-V
change anything and try to study and get the data.z. And I didn't
A
even think of, at that point, "the data in service of,"...



< .^ because I really didn't think of the study in

Hunter's Point as "the data in service of," although... because I

was so focused on getting the right data,...



S: ... the right ethnography.

R: And t= :.---. being the observer ta is somehow 4 /


recording...


2-45










Anita Spring 2-46


-S i Yes. Yes. Now,...

R: .reality.

S: ... an analysis is OK.

R: Right.






S: Big time on analysis. That's good,...

i-ght... Right.

because that came out of, you-kfew, "What's the

objective? Here's the methodology. How do we analyze data.

R. t

S in a scientific manner?" That's OK. But not that we

manipulate that data.

R: And you're also at this point aware of sort of the art of

doing the fieldwork--I mean, subtleties...



S... of what you're trying to....

S: Well, thinking it a wee bit. I cant say..



S -- >. how aware I am at that point. But I'm very aware of

the Heisenberg principle.

R: Yes.









Anita Spring


S: I've stated it; I've understood it. I'm really determined

not to let my presence as an anthropologist, in spite of the fact

that I'm wearing those silly glasses.... [laughter] I didn't

realize it at the time!

R: No, you don't.- T-



>We're referring to the 1960s photographs of Anita in the
/
field. [laughter]

S: Yes. Exclu< g t4e s business on

the tape. But anyway, I don't want to ~ y k interrupt the

data.



I-m -r- .ryk cL-n o tht. So when I watch the Zuni

silversmith, I'm keen to know when I can ask questions. bIf:

,I'm not pouncing on someone,

demanding answers.



: mean, 'eaThe

same thing with the Hunter's Point thing. I'm really conscious of

the fact that I want to get the data out, buty~yp I I'm not

going to bombard these people.

R: Right. I wanted to ask you actually something very


2-47








Anita Spring


practical on that level: how did you take notes, or did you take
notes?--while you're in front of people?
S: Yes. Well, with the Washoe, I did.
R: Right. But at Hunter's Point, for instance.
S: I spent so long there..


... -that I might have written up a few things. And
besides, I had ( that photographic record for it


CsI can't recall at this point.... I know at the time,
and I think you can tell from the record, that I really was very
assiduous in sort of field notes.
a s u s
7 And the same thing for my dissertationl)


l o whether I actually jotted things down or....


S: But the woman was blind!


S: So.. &l / I probably did write things down. Her
husband wasn't, 6//dc
S/oig to ecal dt b adl ...g


2-48









Anita Spring


S: And the kids weren't. So I probably did write things

down.

R: Yes. I was thinking more in terms of how that affected

how people were responding to you, or if that made them

uncomfortable or.

e

R what, because as one of the good things about

working, I guess, with, quote, "professional" consultants or

informants is that they're used to the process.

S: They're used to it, yes.





R: But they as you point out later, too, and we'll get

to that, there're problems with...



R 7... that as well. I was just wondering how comfortable

you were.... It just made me think of/ .- Ia*4vthe Hunter's Point

project and how.



: ... you were handling all of that.

S: Right. You know, I cannot recall whether I was writing

things or not writing thing down.



I


2-49









Anita Spring


R-

I used to have a photographic memory.



S: )jo if I didn't write things down,.



S- ... I could do it later.

R: Yes. R/a~ AdKh !'h I think, actually, one of

the things that probably used to be taught / o/- ct/ a in

ethnographic field schools was probably A little tricks to

help you remember things, because....

S: No. I really just remembered everything.

R: Yes.

S: I don't anymore.

R: Yes.

S: [laughter] Unfortunately,...



i ..---7that's gone away. But at that time....

R: So... and when you were with the Zuni silversmiths,

did... were you afraid[?] to write notes...

S: I didn't write notes because...



a: 7. I was just sort of observing things.


2-50









Anita Spring


S: Yes. No, there wasn't anything to write up,...



S: .. I don't think. I may be wrong on this, but...



".. r do t... ha o 'A. To tell you the

truth, have no idea.



S: I always wrote a lot, _,w and I always wrote

copious notes for courses.

R: Yes. And also, I think, It th by the time you get

to the Washoe field school, yolr getting actually instructed

on...

S: Oh, they were telling us and looking at the notes.

R: Yes.

S: So all of those things were directed by them.

R: Yes.

S: They wanted all that stuff.





R: Was that foreign to you or felt obtrusive or too much

L4At


2-51










Anita Spring 2-52




/ th e a ...





S: Never gave it a second thought.

R: It's certainly an impressive record to look at, I'll tell

you in retrospect, compared to what is... taught....

S: How does it compare to the others? Did they do the same

thing?

R: I got my master's degree, and this is fine for the record

no for me with that single class in ethnographic methods.e



R: And I was at a great loss. I mean, it is too.....



R: ;;So I just did a lot... I winged a lot of things. And it's

only because at the point I was going through, the department was

just simply not focused on that.

S: L'ti-i rin't hav^be But I meant in terms of

the other people in the field school. Surely, their notes are in

the University of Nevada archives, as well.

R: Yes, they are. And the other ones I have looked at are

not as thorough. So either people did not turn them in, were not










Anita Spring


comfortable about turning them in, or they didn't do as good a job.

And I'm not talking about any specific people, because all I have

done is look through the file....



R: You know, just..



,A7^ ..-. look through.

S: I wola be*nerestieA e ybe they weren't

trying to get master's degrees.

R: That's what I'm thinking.

S: Or maybe .1I don't know. I probably

would have done it anyway,...

R-:--Ycs.-

Sj_ --.I kind-rrf-- LHink.

R: Was there as much in your ethnographic field /J

foy1methods class., -ad there been as much emphasis on genealogy

and kinship? Was that...

S. //No.

: /.[ret mett

S: No. I hardly remember any of that.



Al (In fact, the only thing I remember from David,


2-53









Anita Spring


_-the field methods class--[laughter] he would die laughing--he took

an Irish lullaby or jig or something Irish..



S: It was a recording. And we had to listen to it as many

times as it took to be able to write it on paper. And the point of

the exercise was everybody thinks they should put things on tape.



> But few people realize that for every, MpV7no, -qe hour

of tape, it's going to take you five hours to type it out.



: tTci:_h-i th !.- .. d a2 have other methods now;...

R: Yes.

S: ... we have foot pedals and an, that.-.. w-S speedier

typists and computers g6a ^ h o hjqf, which srarfk. maybe

cuts the time to three and a half hours. But, really, it will

take...



that amount of time. You have that built into your

project,.



.. is that's what this project's all about. But for the

ordinary anthropologist who wants to go out for six months or a


2-54









Anita Spring


year and put all the interviews on tape and then write a

dissertation or /,nr master's g~/1d s 4ai49 thesis /&Nf

d49s1* p based on that, the amount of time they would have to
spend just getting...

R: Transcribing it.

S: ... transcribing would be extraordinary. So I do remember

that particular exercise. *4 1e also had these notebooks of



9 U/+1 that we wrote or that he wrote~ >s p about

methodologies that people had used. So those were...



i-...i kind of interesting.

R: Do you remember any particular methods that struck you at

the time that you ./@/2 had decided that you would

always ,4 buyt p employ *-^..?

S: Well, besides participant observation,.



S5 .1 key informants, life histories... I mean, they're

really standard anthropology.

R: Right.

S: You know, they're all the standard... they're really just

very standard.


2-55















v-, -Yes, and kinship.



S: X-inship diagrams and so forth. But I didn't really

know... I'm not sure we practiced that much on how to do them.

R: Yes. And also, just.,eO2 the practicalities of

actually going into the field and going, "Well, what kind of

notebook should I take? And what...?" I mean, justeP "44the real

mundane... seemingly mundane, but it gets critical..



.. that everyone have their little system, because I've

been interested to see.~ ~A(j n Special Collections with this

growing collection of ethnographic field notes, everyone seems to

have their little...

Y a...

/.: 72. system.

S: I have a system.



2/ 7Definitely. Yes.

R: Did it evolve as you did different projects mE, .?

S: Well, I used the chemistry lab notebooks because they

were bound.


Anita Spring


2-56










Anita Spring


R: Yes! [laughter] And their pages are numbered.

S: And the pages are numbered, u/e ^hrei



S. ^ at's it.



tAnd I don't remember if I... I was used to
A
them, anyway, but I think someone told me it was a good idea.



I don't think I came across that myself.

R: Because they are bound.

S: Yes. And so I had, t4T-L ~ hIs little 4i*tkdf-

techniques. But I think that I did get information on some of those

things.

s.

I think the people at San Francisco State were very

practical,..

-Yes.

7.. as well as theoretical. I-mea--I did think it was a

very wonderful place at the time.

R: Did you make -- ll, you -da ma use of ~r some of

the John Collier photographic methods in Dresslerville...

S: Yes.


2-57









Anita Spring


use of that?


R: / Because....

S: Yes, I used the same technique. I mapped out the .7

community. V

R: Yes. But you didn't take as many pictures A .. u

didn't actually take pictures of people 1 4, did you?

S: I hardly took any pictures.

R: Do you remember why?

S: People didn't want their picture taken.

R: Well, that'd be the best reason, but....

S: Yes. They were really 4i~d--f against it, and... it was

really my first cross-cultural experience,...



S: ... you know? And theyr -.g-ai.n.-s-

R: Yes. I was wondering if you'd actually been sort of

counseled not to as part of the....

S: I think maybe we must have,



/f .*

2-58










Anita Spring


and my skill I mean, I would roll my own film.



/ ..' into canisters and then go and develop it and print

it.





R: It would have been great if you hadn't listened to

whoever it was! [laughter]

S: Yes. I think we were told not to.

R: Well, maybe not for your study, because I think....

S: L / It would have been perfect, now that I think

about it. But we must have been told not to, because the lack of

pictures th s tl's the only thing I've ever done in my life

that I have almost no pictures of.

SR: That's interesting. I'm going to

S: Except for photographing the community, S s

there are no people in those photographs.



Mapped out all the roads and streets, which can be used

to day, uldbe nice contrast.t -{t ..-Q-

R: There... yes. That would be very....


2-59












S: Yes. But I only remember three or four... I did take

Clara Frank skinning a squirrel and cooking it. I did take Frieda

with some of her baskets.



S<- : J Have a beautiful picture--or had (I don't know if I still

even have it)--of Clara Frank k~jdme f in color. I don't know whose

camera that was--a very small picture.



S: And a couple of things of some kids. And that's it!



ii: : Now, I obviously... and I printed those myself.

R:

SS: But it is staggering, the lack of stfE, considering that

I was taking pictures every five minutes Oea e ..a e t-ecl4C&

R: [laughter] Yes!

S: I mean, literally.



S: It was calculated to...

R.

.2 C-' to be able to use it as ethnographic data. So I must

have been told not t
$""fE~ /


Anita Spring


2-60









Anita Spring


S: ... in the field school. And the people were not overly

anxious# hk-e' ~-fi ft &&[A.. v-?3

R: I'm just struck by your saying that that was your first

cross-cultural experience. In what sense is it different from the

Hunte oint...? In what sense is that more cross-cultural than

your...?

S: Well, see, San Francisco in the 1960s was a very diverse

place.

R: So it was a question of...



./ degree rather than...?

S: And Dresslerville was a very is ate. unlike now,..



Sf4A was a very isolated, insular, bounded community. San

Francisco... I mean, Hunter's Point is connected to the rest of the

city.



S: hey were Americans. They were, yettw-krW,

funny t- ri. different, .



butawebut we

go,# to the supermarket an


2-61









Anita Spring 2-62




S: speakag English and,...

R: Yes. .

S:. ... you know,..



S: ..2 watcyu television. I mean, even though those things

did occur on +rer ot the...

She o

S .. olo .



S: ... reservation, the colony, yes. Call it the "colony."

But it really was different, because here I was just by myself....

Well, I guess Ed Montgomery ~/ was also working there, but our

paths really hardly ever crossed.

R: So you didn't... well, that was actually one thing I

wanted to ask; how much... O l, (4ttAV i

S: During the day we had to.. Ji ( d V }

,p41t n wat t I know he also worked with George Snooks, so

I think we shared one or two informants.



S: Ceretain... I think Wchrc dnd hy e worked wit

R: Where did you stay? Where did you stay in...?
A










Anita Spring


S: Well, that was the other thing.



S C~- .. I think we were told--I don't think we could have

come across this ourselves--that he would stay in Basque Hotel X,

and I would stay in Basque Hotel Y. And they/4pd1)e were

across the street from each other, and they did that because they jU

didn't want any suspicions of putting a male and a female..



S: together..



S: .2in the same...



S.-- ... place. And that was fine.

R: Right.

S: I mean, it wouldn't have been a problems. He and I were

very nice colleagues, and in.



S: fact, my... t~r-a---- boyfriend iS- at the time

actually did come and visit toward the end of the time I spent

there. And then I moved out of the Basque Hotel. I think I was in

the Basque Hotel for either... what was it, a six-week thing?

R: Yes.


2-63










Anita Spring


S: And so I was there probably for five weeks, and then the

last week moved out...

R: Was that the... one the Basque.).



R: hotels in Gardnerville?

S: Yes.



:. And they said, unlike s~-mr the Paiute aff,

where people could actually live in the communities)



."2 u'd have to live at the Basque Hotel and commute to

Dresslerville. OK. I was very devastated by that.

R: I bet.

S: That did not please me at all, in spite of the fact that

I'd been in Basque country when I went through the caves.
I1


S: And I was very disappointed that I couldn't live in the

community.

R: Yes. I can see that, that that would have had an effect.


2-64










Anita Spring


Wedzl ?wh a. ?

S: And had to live so far.

R: And, also, in one of the memos that I read, you also were

warned against doing any night fieldwork.

S: Yes. And we could only be there during the daytime)..



S: .. in Dresslerville. So we couldn't go to any night

ceremony.... I was very upset about that.

R: Yes. Do you think they were being overly protective, or

do you think... did you see enough to make you think maybe it was

a valid concern __

S: Oh. If... had I been the professor, I would have said the

same thing.

R: Yes.

S: Yes. But wA< Va/ fik w3oldd but I think (C. the

reason we couldn't live there had to do with the way the tribal

k'n and the colony was constructed or... technically. Not the
A
physical buildings, but I think...



S: ... the bylaws ap~,. I don't know. I mean,

something?\.


2-65









Anita Sprin g 2-66


.K legalistic.

R: Right. Right.





S: In the reality of it, there were people who had houses

who might have given us or... you know, each one of us or one of

us...



-fj71 a room to let... to stay in.

R: Right. So did the. the people W3t were in the

Paiute field school, some of them did Atay...



R: j with families? Because wouldn't that...



S/ oud13pt be real difficult to separ... wouldn't

you become over-. .



: ... identified[?]?

S: I don't know the answer.



.. But I don't remember other people living in a hotel so

far away from their field site.










Anita Spring


S: I don't remember -that-

R. -Right. S- w.-c ui cLyou.. ?

S: And they were on... see, the other Indian groups were on

reservations.

R: That's true. That's different.... You're right. There's

something about the mechanics o ..



R: ... or logistics of that whole thing.

S: wgr d or example, when I went to Nevad.



S: in April...



S: ./ I took that field trip to the Pyramid Lake. And so we

were right on the reservation there.

R: Right.

S: And people could stay there.

R: Right. You could have camped there.






S: Y- So I think that some of the people managed to

be much closer...


2-67









Anita Spring


Sc=== to their field...



S: area or even be in it. I don't know; it'd be very

interesting to know that. Well, Warren will know the answer to

that.

R: I./ 4 will ask.

S: I'd like the answer, too. But I was very disturbed that

not only did I have... was I not in the community, but I had to

deal with this whole other ethnography, ethnic group of the

Basques,...



2. as much as anthropologically that was interesting.

es.





S: But it would take me away from thinking about the Washoe.

R: Right.

S: So I had to confront Basque culture atr*~=. : every

day at 5:30, J-Qsgf% after being with the Washoe from 9:00 to
?(k A
5:00.

R: I never thought of that. So that at the time, the Basque


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Anita Spring


Hotel was very Basque.

S: The meals were communal.

R: Yws=-=Y--q-

.2rhe people in the hotel were, of course, yeiakw, here

I am, a single female eating my meals there, ~ar\irw, being sort

of under their care, .



S: -'---- Ar-d ft's a small mom-and-pop

operation,..



S: -w- y. ow~.., with probably a couple of young sons or

sons-in-laws or.... I mean, it had to all be confronted daily.

R: Yes. I hadn't even thought of that complication. And, of

course, it'd be like moving into a... any small community, but what

you're really doing is out there, but now you got to come back

home....

S: Yes. These sheepherders.... You know, the reason the

Basques are there is because the whole sheep industry in Nevada.



S: 7And they would bring over these people who were out-yeI-

ozm, herding sheep in the Old Country and out in the mountains,

_ for most of their lives and not needing to watch


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Anita Spring


television and drive cars.



S: d they'd... and there would... some of these men...



S: .. would be sitting next to me,...



S: .. speaking Basque and rudimentary English during the

evening meal. And I'm trying to think about the Washoe.

R: [laughter] Oh, that's quite wonderful!



I'd never even thought of that complexity. And, yes, I

can see.... It must have been very psychically exhausting to say

the least.

S: It probably was. I don't really remember being so

distressed over it.



But now that I think about it, obviously, that was

happening. As an anthropologist, I thought all this ethnic stuff

and cultural diversity a ~'- '- '- was interesting. But it

was something I did have to confront .



... on a daily basis...


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Anita Spring


S: .. to eat.

R: To eat! [la

S4: nm


S: becausee I had a room; I didn't have cooking facilities.

2R: Yes.

Z I didn't have food; I didn't go shopping.

R: Well, I can see not staying in the community and not

potentially being able to eat evening meals with some of your

Washoe....

S: I don't remember eating lunch there.



S,:- 1 den' t-=zre-. d "
R- ---Sc, hat ... tyou h /


R: Don't you think mealtime is a kind of a..?

S: Oh, you bet. I just told you how at Hunter's Point I

would eat with that family frequently.

R-----Yeas.

S: OK?

s.

S:2 That one family. And because if I wanted to be there for

long periods of time, which I was, it could be lunch; it could be


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Anita Spring


dinner. I was there after dark in San Francisco.

R: Have you ever... have since... since the field school,

have you... well, I know you have, but I need to ask the question

anyway--have you been in a field situation where you're working as

part of a team of other anthropologists who are going into the

field simultaneously?

S: Oh, all the time. This pile over here, ...


S: ..?Twhich just came there yesterday, is a compilation of

Malawi, Swaziland, Kenya, Ethiopia, and Jamaica--all the courses I

taught, methodology courses, and then the projects with other

anthropologists and scientists and then me leading the teams to go
p,,+- -1t4 /m 4-e rfals- Afve u -
and collect the data. I ;id=A -s for Russ Bernard g14, who is
A
interested in the methodology.


2-So I've been doing a lot of that.

R: And you have been doing this... that kind of anthropology

for many years....

S: Oh, yes. The last twenty years.

R: Been a focus of your career, hasn't it?

S: Yes. zEa==Y__s.



-2


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Anita Spring 2-73


.y- Definitely.

R: And I realize now, having asked the question, that being

in a field school with a bunch of other students is nothing like

working on a project, or is it? Maybe I need to just ask the

question, Ai was there an atmosphere in the field school

amongst the other students and with the professors that you were

kind of colleagues and you were somehow cooperating and going to

pool any of this data?

S: Oh, that's a good.



p. good question. Yes. I did not feel that it was a

competitive situation with the others.







-S: I felt it was very collegial. On the other hand, we

didn't really pool data. Now, for example, Ed was doing

ethnobotany, as I recall, or medical, which I was not interested in

at that point.



: I subsequently did some of that, that's....

R: I know. That's very interesting that you....










Anita Spring


S: But... yes. But it didn't interest me, and so the data he

had, he sometimes told me, and I guess I must have told him,

because we were colleagues and occasionally would join each other

after dinner to talk about... or maybe for dinner, to have a

different place to eat.

R: Yes.

S: Or not have to talk Basque or something,...

R: [laughter] Sure.

S: [laughter] ... as I recall. But we were both very

studious, so we didn't really spend a lot of... that much time. But

it was very collegial,.



-.. not competitive.

R: There was a... it's somewhere, and I have it... you also

made. -;zyfmadc some comments about some information you'd gotten

from Betty Beruti at the time...



B.-----. T..a--- Toyi...- from her study in Loyalton.

And Yl^7. from the notes that you took, and I'm not certain that

I actually wrote them down, but I make reference to them,t t-/A it

looked like you were ahead... you were in the position of asking

some of the other students for some of the data on marriage


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Anita Spring


patterns or....

S: Oh. I probably di

R*

-R And if you can get that letter from Gordon, whoever he

was,...

er]

: .. was.. .obviously someone who worked on the

Paiute,...

s.

S: ... I was in the mode of asking people, "Well, was

it this way there? And what did you get?" Definitely.

R---=Ye .

S: :Ed couldn't help me because he was working on..

qn--Sombt-Ijag ....

S: .. something else. ..



S-7'I never got any data from him, and I guess the stuff I

was working on wasn't of any interest to him. But those other

people who were elsewhere, I didn't really know what their topics

were, I guess.

R: Did... and how did you pick you pick your topic?

S: Well, probably the social organization part.

2/


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Anita Spring


... s what... where I started from



:K. I was going to study their social organization,

because I probably just had had David CmPif5T' s classe- me ...





S: at might have been what.... I'd just b red yl

done the field methods, social anthropology.



0 ? part.

R: Do you think there was ~y/ oAhdi n any link
Hlink
to your Hunt r point study, focusing on the absence or presence of

the father, and then interested in marriage per se?

S: No. No. No. I don't... I really don't think so'.



S: I think it came from the social organization







.-': It's just that the Washoe are bilateral, and kinship ties

dissolve after... You know, had they been, jvjes segmentary
4j


2-76










Anita Spring


lineages or something like that ...



S: / probably would have gotten into... I probably

wouldn't have focused on marriage....

R: I see. Ye.

S. If you get...

R: o, no, that...

S: If you get my point,..



S: ..-.I probably would have gone into, ye-xm*r, how this

lineage w --in- Mi-. R -n_ fission and fusion&cQI I was all
A
involved in that part of social organization..



S: and kinship.



S: But because their moieties were very weak, because they

were bilateral kinship with these ties falling apart after....

And, y==knc=, and so then they had to marry somebody, and this on

wasn't a relative, and did they have sororal polygyny, you know? So

that I think it just evolved..



S: ... into that topic. I'm not sure I went there with the


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Anita Spring 2-78


idea of studying.



S: / arriag




__-,- patterns.

R: Yes. Because you also... I mean, from the field notes--

and it's just a sense I get; it's not anything especially explicit-

-you also were focusing on... well, perhaps it was part of

semantics, relationships. You were... it seemed you were very

interested..

S.

R: .. n issues of attraction, maintaining a

relationship...

es.

R: /What ideas were of...



R: what a relationship is..




R: ..between the genders.

S: I don't think you have seen the one publication besides

the thesis.

R: No, I haven't.










Anita Spring


S: And that's in my other briefcase with all the material.

R: OK. I'm going to get that.

S: But I wanted to make a... give you a copy of that..




S: ."~- t was published in the Cornell Journal of

Social Relations, and it was the first thing I published in my

life. Well, no, I guess the Hunter5Point...




S: ..7 thing was.

R: Yes.




End of Tape 2

*


2-79




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