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Anita Spring
INTERVIEWER : Meredith (Penny) Rucks
DATE : 1/15/99
TAPE : 2
SUBJECT : Washoe Ethnographers
TRANSCRIBER : Linda Sommer
AUDIT-EDITOR : Penny Rucks
Meredith (Penny) Rucks: OK. So when you're... when you had
the after school..
nita Sprin g/. S-==-So....
SR--- .-thing in Philadelphia, that was also to pay to
college? I mean....
Well, I was kind of young then. .
S: .7. probably not. But all the stuff in Berkeley and.
: ... in California, that was all to contribute to
college.
R: Yes.
S: So when I went for my master's degree.j yipmy parents
helped me.
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Yes
R* Yes
S: Of course.
SYe.
S: They paid for the dorm and, you-n-w, all kinds of
thing fnTLz-.
es.
... so went for the master's degree, and I think that
they were in full agreement. I think my father was a little
disappointed...
S: .J2that I wasn't going to do the chemistry, but he had
bHe--id al jRtL as I. T--mea-, I told him I wanted to do chemistry
in the service of preservation of artifacts,.
R:
S: ...?so he was keen,.
R: ,Yo Y -.
S: -... that he thought that was a wonderful idea.
R: Yes.
S: So that was it.
R: Well, I still do. I can see the.... [laughter]
S: OK. So he liked that idea. So they helped me still a
little bit, and that's why I had to work in the museum.
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R: Got it..All right.
S: Actually, my first job was working at Wells Fargo Bank
on the shift from 6:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m.
R: Wow!
S: So it was 6:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m.; then stay up several
hours afterwards; then start... go to graduate school classes
between like noon and 5:00.
R: Yes.
S: Waj~eo@ And the job... and I think I did it for about
a term, five or six months. The job, as I have looked back over
-Ul tce4j# Cs a ct
it these years, was extraordinary. You had to balance.. =:au
Ig hi'n you make a deposit at the bank?
R: Yes.
S: You give them the deposit slip, like from your checking
account
Ses.
8r A for your savings accounIt And you w e in what the
deposit... .nd then it is followed by the checks.
R: Right.
S: ~!~iU his was a job in which you balanced the cover pagelt,/ft,
the debits and the credits.
R: Yes.
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Pa-----s .
S: A Igkeyboard of this size, -r -- 1- -- two-by-
three-foot...
R-
I ... keyboard in front of you with numbers and an
encod~ to the put the magnetic e ... encoding on the
check. ou had to do five thousand items minimum in a shift.
R: Oh, my.
S: So you would pick up something, read... and, of course,
prm9iji3 the numbers were... ..-- i.rkw, I could look at numbers
all day.
> That was not a hard part.
S: I mean. thick wac net-ad,-bt ....
R: Tedious[?].
S: And you wou ...
S j..3? punch in the numbers,...
S: put the check through for the first cover page,
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which would be the deposit sli
R.-----Yes"
ing,...
R.
S -r and then tL-gt whatever it was--whether it was
A
one item or ten items or a hundred items-...
S.-* .. to balance it and make sure that it balanced and
encode each item. So essentially--I don't know how to describe
this in words--your right hand was moving over the keyboard; your
left hand was feeding i otohe encoding machine the actual,
A -
physical item; and then you were eyeballing it all to make sure
that it all balanced out.
Ps.
And you got bonuses if you went over five thousand
items in a five-hour shift.
R: Yes.
S: So can you imagine the speed. .
S_ P.. that you had to move along?'
4 Well, I will never forget...
Anita Spring
-,-[-iautght er
6--- .,' that one time, after I'd been doing it for a while,
somebody came over to chitchat, to talk with me.
S: ?And I said, all the while with the right going like
that and the left hand going like tt and the items flying
through at this incredible pace,...
R: Yes.
S: ... "Don't talk to me. I'm part of the machine."
R: [laughter]
S: I then realized what I said and stopped dead in my
tracks!
R: That is great! What a moment!
S: And I feelt I~ha--w what a moment is right I feel like
I have an ~SzI Iae people doing factory work.. o -
A
R: Oh.... Yes.
S: ... in developing countries and all this routinized,
repetitive, timed, accounted
.. kinds of work. I can really relate to it and
understand what it does to people. And, you know, the whole
export sector, the computer stuff, the garment industry, the
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sewing...
... in these bathing suit, anrd all this kind -f -st-ff
-I really can understand the nature of that,..
S: ... because I had that.V Mf l-
S: .. a.a for six months, but, ye s.
R: And what a bigger impact it would have had on you if
you really hadn't seen an alternative for yourself.
I mean, you're doing this so you can make money to go
to school.
S: Oh, yes. I mean, I'm staying up afterwards and hanging
out with friends and...
.'- Ci having a grand old time and going to graduate
school during the day. It was kind of an arduous schedule,
but....
R: But the energy of youth--isn't that incredible? You
could do it all! Oh, my....
S: [laughter] Because you could do it all. And then I.4UCLd. _
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R: A part of the machine! [laughter]
S: Yes. And then I got the job at the museum,.
S: first as a helper and then running it.
S. So that took me all through the rest of my career.
S: ... 2n terms of work.
R: .~ San Francisco State...
S: Yes. So those are the only two...
S: >thats I had to work at there.
R: What happened then? Then what happened when you... oh,
so your parents are supportive up to a point, but, of course,
you're earning your own money to get through....
S: Yes. Then I'm really earning. And unfortunately, my
parents... I started at San Francisco State in, what was it?...
1963. I think that's right. My parents moved from California to
Atlanta,6e -X,
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4.- / .. which was still the deep South.
S: ...in the 1960s.
R: Sure. You bet.
S: And I was in Calif... left in California, which was
fine with me. I did visit them several times.
R: Yes.
S: They then went through a divorce in 1967
So they were pretty occupied with other things.
R: Yes. Yes.
R: And at this point... is it fair also, Anita, to say
that at this point in your life, maybe....
S: lg I felt very grown up.
R: )Yesa.. y re = L,.-. Now, jaeat are your sister (yom
yoaa-sa-fEi S watching you with interest, awe, criticism, or what
at this point?
Or are you relating much to them?
S: No. Well, one was eleven years younger. So....
n -: ],1jI which 4-s ....
Anita Spring
R: Ye
J She other one was at UC ..
E -). by this point.
R: Yes. And doing art, right?
S: And studying art and involved in her life.
R: Right.
S: So I think she was OK, and it... she looked like she
was on anic
.- .career.
R: So you're sort of on your own trajectory at this point?
ou've started....
S: And feeling that I... yes, I... well, I really felt I
was on my own trajectory from the time I was sixteen and a half.
R: It sounds like it.
S: Yes.
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S: I just felt that way.
R: So you were not looking for approval or anything at
this point from your parents....
S: No. See, my mother, for example, was always frustrated
by the fact that she did not go to college, because her family
thought that college was only for males.
R: Right. And she was also a depression-era... right?
S: Depression. Exactly.
R: Right.
S: And, of course, the one brother was a dud when it came
to school. He -. that's the last thing he cared about.
R: Yes.
S: So the three girls who came first, I suspect that at
least two of them, if not all three, would have....
R: Would have....
S: They're all very sharp women.
R: Yes.
S: In fact, I saw two of them... the two remaining ones;
my mother passed away, but I saw her two sisters just last year.
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And I mean, they're smart as a tack,...
.. you know, and they would have been great college
material, but they never had the opportunity. And my mother
always took little courses and was a voracious reader and
collector of books.
S: GBut she did have the notion that women should be in
a... in certain professions.
-. So they're sort of odd bedfellows. Let me tell you the
profession she thought I should be in: of course, if her daughter
turned out to be a doctor, what else could she have wanted?
R: [laughter]
S: A doctor was good. Nurse was never mentioned.
R: But doctor. So... yes.
S: That... I don't know how she thought I was going to be
a doctor, but... an M.D. doctor.
R: Now, were there medical people in her family?
S: No. No.
R: It was just a goal that....
S: No. She came from an immigrant family. Her parents had
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come as teenagers to America right before... right, actually, at
the very beginning of World War I.
R: Now, is that the part of the family that's 'th. is
o-Lithuanian?
S: Yes.
s: l-Rssia, Poland, Lithuania.
R: Yes.
S: It's that whole complex there.
R-- Yes.
R: So she was just ambitious for you to be..
R: -I mean, just because it would have been so cool.
[laughter] _
S: Ge=:-t. So here are the careers, I mean, as I think
back: teacher, of course.
S: And they make no sense. O
c^---V- ,P6
One was be a doctor, but there was no... ow was I
going to get..? The other, be a teacher
A
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Sj and the third was be involved in food, lse run a
restaurant.
R: Yes. Oh, that's great! [laughter] So I can see, if
we're just talking about maternal influence, being an
anthropologist was your only solution. [laughter] Especially in
the medical field. You know, you've incorporated all of it.
S: Yes.
R: That's great.
S: And whereas my father was very keen on the fact that I
wanted to do the high school chemistry,..
S: .-Pbecause that did the profession, and then the
teaching was still He. .s ssa -. .-4tc4-C-9 -- 1 e P-/4
R: So was the message.. y. ~d y u.. m
t also seems to be coming clear is the message was distinctly
that you should be independent; you should have your own means of
income.
S: Yes. Well....
R: The idea wasn't like some women were raised, that they
were to make a good marriage.
S: Yes. No, that was very strongacL.. e
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gs The marriage thing was very strong-.
S: And I wouldn't say it was the independent income.
R: Right.
S: I would say it was the focus on education, that
education would lead to doing something.
S: 7 lightly different.
R: Yes, it is. And it's also... is it also part of ..
~=-o. .t you had a obligation to the society around
you? Was there any of that?
S: W- tf parents were very socially conscious
in ter .
S>... of, Pyos;eow, what are the major issues of the day)
R: Were they liberal?
S: Yes.
R: Politically liberal?
S: Yes.
EP=I YP
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S9~----e---.
R-~---Yes .
S: .mes My father had done tremendous work for the war
efforts. He was never drafted but hr was working as a
chemist and had solve
A .---- some major problem for making ammunition, in terms
of solutions o~-=-e et can decoribe thi3 bottCr th- t
PAO C"oe-rad cIkwna-
found a way to dilute the soluti hat allowed the ammunition to
A
be manufactured...
S: ... more effectively..
/d'u .. .during the war...
S: ?.. through chemistry.
R: Yes.
S: So he really believed in the efficacy of taking
scientific knowledge and using it in the service of his
government and to help peopleanci tha-E kin-d u---E-Lf. So he
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really did believe that.
R: Yes. Dd=E c fl&~ I don't know why this is a logical
next question, but it just struck me--did he have opinions? Was
it discussed in your house about the atomic bomb?
S: It wasn't discussed. I don't recall it.
R: I was just thinking.
R: ./ in terms of science.
S: Yes. No. It wasn't...I don't know
S: Chat was an earlier period
*: :-2I do recall--and this is important--he never wanted his
wife to work.
R: That is important.
S: In fact, this is a very big theme with him. He's always
thought that a man should support a woman, his wife. And so/l
eKf-i at the beginning, the idea, I think, was to just have
the daughters educated, so they could have these professions, but
I don't think there was any realization ~. it would actually
turn out at that point, and...
2/
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another story. That they would be doing it to support
themselves.
A or have it as a fall-back position. And he always
prevented my mother from working. She wanted to work.
R: Do you suppose... and I want to come back to that
subject, too, but do you suppose, had your father... had there
been boys in your family, had you had brothers, that you would
have had less...
S: Of a chance?
R: ... support? Yes.
S: You bet.
R: I think that's critical. Yes.
S: Yes. And as I've looked back over it, I mean, my
sisters and I have discussed this.
$~ )ind we all agree that we were lucky as hell,
because.... 1\
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-r (-Not to have any boys, because we could have really been
aced out. Yes.
R: I can see that.
S: Yes.
R: That's really... it's really interesting, and it's
something I hadn't really thought of. So you said...
now, to go back to your mother, you said that she
had always wanted to work.
S: She wanted to go to college; she wanted to work.
S: 4ou know, she was frustrated as heck
S: ;nd she took it out by reading a lot,.
S: and she always valued education and anything
intellectual.
R: Yes.
S: And it's really funny... my father's two wives
afterwards have been anti-intellectuals, not non-intellectuals,
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but literally disdaining intellectual thought, while at the same
time, sitting there kind of buttering him up in. ...... My
father is very intellectual. So it's a most peculiar combo.
R: Yes, it is.
S: I'm horrified by it.
: Absolutely horrified. But that's another story. Let's
talk about and get back to the.... [laughter]
R: Yes. Now, back to John Adair -fg ..?
Jon Adalr.
S: Right. One of the things he did, he gave cameras to the
Indians, and he let them film what they saw as important. And I
remember seeing one of the first films; it was screened at the
American Anthropological Association meeting. And it was a
twenty-minute film. The first eighteen minutes of it was a Navajo
Indian walking from place A to B.
5: He was going to get the materials for his bracelet or
whatever he was going to make. [laughter]
"S-/ He was one of the silversmiths.
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R: Yes.
S: And the last two minutes was, kow,; something to do
with the materials and the design or something like that.
: f course, this was a mindblower, because, sW
knQy, from a western point of view, we would have gotten right
down to, pi;RIRRw, "Let's make the bracelet."
R: Yes. That's a wonderful.... I haven't heard that story,
and that is really evocative, isn't it?
S: Yes. I mean, it does... it kind of fits with the
emphasis on verbs instead of nouns ...
... American Indian languages..
... and the being, doing, getting....
R: Yes. The process...
S: Yes. Yes.
R: Basket making,...
S: Yes.
R: ... all of that
-^
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R: Oh, that's fascinating.
S: So that was really very fascinating.
S ;___Sd..but anyway, I don't....
R: So.were you a student of his at this.time?
S: I was... I worked with all these people.
: Tri [?] .. I had moved away from the archaeology
side pretty much.
But, w y.ow. ]_'w 'il ... James
Hirabati a~ for this study. And David Gamble..
S. was also there, had worked in st Africa.
did the methods course and the Africa course, so I took those
course ...
x: t, too.
R: Because I've been wanting to track back on how you got
to Africa....
S: Yes. You asked about the African...
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Interest and where that got sparked.
R: Yes.
S: So he was a British social anthropologist who was also
teaching at San Francisco State.
R: The methods course. OK.
S: And he taught ~a-th -... both a methods course and a
course on Africa. I don't remember the titles or whatever,
but....
R: Oh, but you know... I'm going to skip back, and forgive
me, but I forgot to follow up on what happened after you went to
New Mexico. You actually interviewed....
S: Oh. Oh.
R: Yes.
S: I did interview.., in fact, I have a few photographs. I
did... everythingEt4 ... everything is photographed.
And to this day,...
R: Great!
S: ... I mean, I could not believe that I left my camera
at home this morning, but other people had cameras, and I said,
"Keep taking pictures!"
R M~~~=~P~
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S: I mean, I'Im j-u :.. and I've gotten to the... you know,
I used to have all this great photographic equipment with lenses
and...
filters. Now, I have two idiot cameras, but I carry
- with me all the time...
thml wil.h m morning, noon, and night. And I still
have all kinds of jillions of pictures.
,R1 %yway, I went and sat in the homes of several of the
Zuni silversmiths....
R: This is completely on your own without introductions or
S: Yes. Well, I went to visit a friend, and he had bought
some pawn stuff at one of the trading. S and I f >
R<-OK. So you....
S: .< -! someS e6m ... I don't remember exactly,..
.,B----...Yes.
-- ..7 but somehow I found my way into some people's
houses. I have a..
-R--- -ygsL.
Anita Spring
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S: ... way to do that anywhere I am on the planet, so...!
[laughter]
R: Yes. No, it's great. It's... but it is interesting
how....
S: And sat there and watched this man work and took
A
photographs and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, w *=-I- John Adair,
for reasons I do not know, even though he always greets me
warmly, he and his wife and so forth, at one point decided that
they didn't want me to do the restudy. And I don't know whether
that meant that they didn't want it done; they found a Ph.D.
student as opposed to just a master student;...
S: ... they wanted a man, not a woman.
-S 2.. t was put off till next year when he could apply
for a grant--I have no ide .
i -ght. .
S: .. any of the reasons
S: They were never given to me.
R: Right.
S: Aind...-- ut I... --mean, I don't remember feeling
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terrible about it.
R: Right.
S: I thought it would be a really interesting thing to do.
R: Sounds interesting.
S: I had read all the literature...
.. on those two ethnic groups and everything to do
with silversmithing, and I mean, I really had done a lot of
reading on....
R: When you say two, you mean Zuni and Navajo?
S: Ye .
S: )And I was pretty interested in American Indians.
S: So I was doing a lot of reading on that.
P- But tha-...
R: ... was that your first real encounter with western
Indians?
S: Well, the... archaeology.
R: Yes.
S: We had to read all the ethnography....
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R: Oh, but I meant living... I meant meeting...
S: Oh, a real live person.
R: ... and going into community. Yes. Yes.
S: I don't know. San Francisco was a real diverse.
S: .t. }1J between the museum.
S: .. nd the exhibit. Maybe I...
R: ... but Zuni land... I mean, I'm just wondering if it
struck you were actually there..
S: Oh, actually going there.
R: I mean, if it actually...
S: Yes. Yes. Yes.
S Except, of course, see, we're just running around
California. There are Indians everywhere, really, kind of.
S: I mean,... except, yes. I don't remember being in awe
or struck by anything. When I went to the Zuni....
R: Like, "Oh, they're really here," or....
S: Yes. No.") Cr Lc
!, "Oh, yes. Well, this group of Zuni... I'm going
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to their houses." [laughter]
R: Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.
S: OK. Yes. No, I don't remember.... being too awestruck.
R: So you got... so you'd come, and for whatever reason
had....
S: For whatever reason, that project's off. And it could
have been something real simple.
R: Yes.
S: I didn't try to interpret it,...
S: .. particularly. And E r d -.. y ... I had to
study for my exams or whatever...
R: Right.
S: ...you know, that kind of stuff.
R: Right. So you....
S: And I was running the museum, so..
S: 27?. I was pretty busy.
S: Yes. And I wanted to grad. -_g-=kaaiw. And then I do
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not recall, but I suppose, whether a professor told me or I read
1 L ."...mian announcement, and I applied for the field school.
R: Yes.
S: I was accepted. So that became what I was going to do
my master's on. I already knew that.n =a I'd go for the
summer, collect, there, and then write ,% upg, a -=Wt-r. .
R: So you... how many... aind~~im he other students... I
mean, this is a question about the field school, is because I
didn't really realize that there were... I'm not sure if there
were any other students who actually did master's thesis based on
their fieldwork.
S: Didn't Ed Montgomery? I'm under the impression that
he....
R: I don't know I''~Em l n t....
I haven't looked into him very thoroughly
R: )And Don Handelman did, of course. But....
S: Yes. Yes. The other ones did Paiutes and Utes.
R: But the expectation of that field school... was the
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field school set up for people doing their master's, or was it
just set up for people doing ethnographic technique?
S: You know, I do not know the answer. I think it was....
R: I'll find out.
S: Yes. I'd like to know that, because, you know,
sometimes when you're doing something, you just think everybody's
doing something?
R: Yes.
S: I thought everybody got their master's degrees out of
it. [laughter]
R: Yes. Yes.
S: But obviously, that's probably not tru)
:: kSo I never gave it a second thought.
R: Yes. Because I thought the expectation that you could
do your... go in to have a field school, to be learning
techniques, at the same time seriously gathering data for a
thesis, was challenging.
R: Let's put it that way.
S: Maybe that is why I got....
R: Because, you know, when you go to archaeology field
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school, you're not expected...
S: Yes. Exactly.
R: ... you're not working on a thesis.
S: Exactly. Maybe that is why I felt that I had to get
more.
S: Like, I don't remember... I mean, we were in Nevada;
there's gambling; there are shows; there's...
SI don't remember doing any of that
-~5 1 probably once looked at a slot machine in a
supermarket.-= -
S: rn!i kLow. I don't ever remember taking off weekends
or....
R: Yes. Well, the volume of data you got... I mean, to me,
it's extremely impressive. It's....
S: So I must have felt that I needed much more than just
the field technique, because I was doing the master's degree.
Anita Spring
R: Yes. So when you... and they knew when they took you
that you were going to....
S: I don't know the answer to that.
R: Yes. Like... I'll do a little more digging on that of
the file....
S: Do they have the applications? Did they save any of
that stuff on the field school?
R: Yes. And that there's a whole ,...
S: It would be so interesting to see....
R: ... and I haven't dug into it yet.
S: Because you have three... is it three people...
S: ... who worked in the field school.
S:-- eon ....
R: Don Handleman and Elizabeth Wendt, who was Betty Beruti
at the time?
S: Yes.
STe-----s.
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P- YeR
S: And there as the one person from the pre....
R: Oh, and Brooke Mordy.
S: Brooke Mordy.
I cited her in my master's thesis.
SShe was the year before.
R: Yes.
S: I never met her.
6. But, anyway, y It would be interesting, if you find
those applications, G5F .
S: -- because we probably had to say wh ...
Z- Z we were interested.
R: Yes. Now, I did have.., on the field school, I did...
there is a letter in your papers that you'd written someone named
Gordon about writing a... about perhaps studying the Paiute.
S: Well, I have no recollection.
R: I will defer that question, because I'll let you look. I
Anita Spring 2-34
should have shown that to you.
S: Yes. Look at that, yes!
Well, I remember...q g I didn't want to go to Mexic
And where was the third one. dn't remember.
R: I don't remember either.
S: But I knew I wanted to do American Indians.
S And.the asin was very interesting, .
S: ..7 because it's a logical thing from California. See,
I'd work.
t.
.- on Indians in California. I'd done the Zunis, so the
Pasin was just like fascinating.
R: Yes. Yes. Right.
S: And probably I heard more about the Paiute than about the
Washoe,...
e7 ... I mean, just because....
R: That could be.
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S: Yes. That's all.
R- Ye-S. Lt me.... tap recorde- i turned off
S.. I ....
R: We're back, and we wxTE-fgt-. we'd gotten you almost to
the field school, but I wanted to go -jl back a little bit
to San Francisco State again..
S ... and talk more about David Gamble. You said he was
there....
S: Yes.
S- David Gamble was a British social anthropologist from the
U.K. It was really a very interesting faculty, I thought.
R: Yes
14 ?ek (re cz-r6
S: *Ayh- ria aa, the anthropologist; John Adair was there,
who'd worked in the Southwest and very innovative in hit--,--.some of
his topics; Herbert Lewisjif, who passed away. Not the Lewis who
worked in Ethiopia.
R: Right.
S: Oh, golly. David Gamble, British social anthropology,
who'd worked in 4t Africa. David Ames ,,I, wno ~/, Awhom I
must have also taken a course from, who also worked in st Africa.
S >Diane Lewis ,1, African American, who had worked in...
was it Malaysia or Indonesia, and a few others. And I found them
all fascinating.
R: Yes. No, this sounds like quite a very. dynamic...
S: See, I think you asked. 4 '4
l /.. activelyy involved.
P... nd Colonel Sweat...
S: ... or Sweet. I can't remember. Sweat, I think, who had
been a military guy, who was like an adjunct faculty. I don't think
I took a course from him, but I found him amusing to be on the
faculty. I thought they were all wonderful.
R: Yes.
S: I was impressed with every single one of them. I thought
the research they did was fabulous; I thought they were fabulous as
people in terms of being interesting.
R: Yes.
S: They were always nice and kind to me,..
-'j4 .. as I recall.
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R'
S: I was an A student, so, of course, that's always good.
don't know. / s j\ \Wy'C. I just thought they
were great.
R: And do you think... and I don't want to make too big an
issue out of this, but I know for many of us who were in school, we
didn't see women faculty. And I mean, it sounds _____e
S: Oh, and Bonnie Keller[AN was an adjunct. I thought she
was real faculty ;...
S: ... he wasn't.
R*
S: es. We did not see very many women.
R: Yes. But you're not... at this point you're not aware at
all that this is any... a problem for you?
S: No. It's only when I get to Cornell.
S: ... hat the awareness comes in.
S: .C .on that particular topic, and then it never stops.
R: [laughter]
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R: A rude awakening.
S: Big time.
R: Yes.
S: But, you know, after the... well, I mean, first of all,
it's during the 1960s...
S: ... in San Francisco.
R [l u ter
OK.
: Th s ri t.
OK? You know what's happening. I mean, it's, y pw,
the free speech movement; it's the free love movement; it's the....
YanL w, everything is happening in San Francisco in the 1960s.
And it was fabulous! Both men and women, you know,...
/ 7?.. male and female students were participating. The male
faculty didn't... they didn't seem to really treat the male and
female students.. I didn't really notice it much,.
R ght.
S ..i except for those archaeological things that I've
already mentioned. But...
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< I really didn't see it. And it was such an exciting
time period.
R: Yes.
S: And, you know, I mean, I didn't get involved in the
movements where the women were serving the coffee, and the men
were... you know. I was a grad I was studying! [laughter]
R: Yes. Yes. Yes.
S: Very supportive of all those things, a ...
S: a.. I3 I don't think we realized that... yraRtUg L
gender division of labor was happening. 6-- FE~.
R: I don't think we did.
S: At that point....
R: Right.
S: And besides, I was a full-fledged masterstudent, so, you
know, I felt like I was right in the... ym- iow. I wasn't being
discriminated against..
Afe ..7 and was doing what I wanted to do.
R: Right.
S: And I was running the museum for god sake...-
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S: .. and doing exhib d this and that. So I hadn't...
no, I don't think there was even a glimmer that there was anything
amiss.
R: You also... at some point you're focusing on social-
cultural anthropology.
SYou become... it becomes clear to you that that's the
kind of thing...
J .- you want to do.
S: Right. Right.
R: And I think... not the first year... the second year,
when I move into the John Collier class and the classes with David
Ames and David and the social anthropology
courses...
S: 7.. that I move from archaeology.... And as the curator
A
of the museum, I get in... more interested in the ethnographic
collections.
R: Yes.
S: We didn't have the ethnographic collections before I went
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to the De Young Museum, and...there was some Eskimo stuff
S: ut before I dragged back all this crazy stuff from,-.i-
kp, fi.. both American Indians and the South Pacific that they
were willing to give away. And then my exhibits are getting more
cultural,...
s.
S: /. that, fy, it's all about material culture, but
it's not about archaeology. It's about living cultu So I do an
exhibit on shoes around the world, corsets around the world....
R: Shoes around the world! Great! [laughter]
S: You know, Zuni jewelry from the Southwest,.
S: plant usage u jQn w. Whereas a lot of the... some
of the other ones had been archaeology. Like the petroglyphs and
pictographs... one... ./ unI3Vo- waTQgoer tp/g ske h1 y this
is left over from..
Fr e ars ..
S: .."?the California Chumash.
R: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.
S: So they were sort of....
R: Oh, that's fabulous ( oo(n /<, a /-c/_
dA^e, G&, IL k I, L J
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S: Yes. Isn't that wonderful?
R: Yes.
S: So b jSA, I started out with exhibit on
petroglyphs and pictographs, because that was straight out of the,
you know, caves of Europe.
ig eight. ght.
S: .. into the archaeology.
R: Right. Right.
S: Right. And then it evolved to....
End of Side 1, Beginning of Side 2
R: K. Now...
S- Yes
R: ... now 're on.
S: OK.
d....
S: So... by that point--and I've done all the field digs--
I've moved away from that, I've got the project in Hunter's Point,
so I never go back to archaeology.
R: Now, /\when you say social anthropology at this
point, are you aware of an applied.., the applied nature and...
R: .. potential there?
S: No.
R: And the reason I'm asking is because of that project,
which seems so....
S: So applied at the present time.
R: Yes. Yes.
S: No. No. Quite the contrary.
S: The other... and I use this in my classes.
S: I'm very much enamored by the Heisenberg [
principle, which, of course, I've learned as an undergraduate. The
Heisenberg principle is that the observer influences the observed.
S: /~ So when they were trying toga SuaL*o these
particles in particle physics,
They had to shine a light on the particles in order
to be able to see if they were there.
/The fact of shining the light on the particles changed
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the position of the particles and, therefore, changed the
configuration and so forth. So what they were observing was not the
real reality.
R: Yes.
S. K.
S: And so their presence was affecting the data and the
subject matter studied. I was very conscious of this idea that the
observer influences the observed--that the anthropologist
influences by her presence what is going on. Since I was very
concerned with that, I didn't want to influence anything. Now, it's
easy to say that... I know I was taking pictures a lot. [laughter]
R: [laughter]
S: And that's... really doesn't make sense. But,
nevertheless, I did... I really believed it,...
S: ..2 I was trying to influence very little. And are
you familiar with the book, Return to Laughter?
R: Oh, yes.
S e
S: OK. Well, that was one of the books, and, yoaew we
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spent hours thinking about, should she have let that woman die? And
what should she have done? And...
S: ... ar that was really very big in my thinking,.
S: ...that book and- -t,--. -, Laura Bohannan's
description of what had happened in.. a~nd how an anthropologist
really was.... And I was her side.
R: Yes. Yes.
~~s.
S: I really agreed that that ws-- -..,--- try not ..
4-V
change anything and try to study and get the data.z. And I didn't
A
even think of, at that point, "the data in service of,"...
< .^ because I really didn't think of the study in
Hunter's Point as "the data in service of," although... because I
was so focused on getting the right data,...
S: ... the right ethnography.
R: And t= :.---. being the observer ta is somehow 4 /
recording...
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-S i Yes. Yes. Now,...
R: .reality.
S: ... an analysis is OK.
R: Right.
S: Big time on analysis. That's good,...
i-ght... Right.
because that came out of, you-kfew, "What's the
objective? Here's the methodology. How do we analyze data.
R. t
S in a scientific manner?" That's OK. But not that we
manipulate that data.
R: And you're also at this point aware of sort of the art of
doing the fieldwork--I mean, subtleties...
S... of what you're trying to....
S: Well, thinking it a wee bit. I cant say..
S -- >. how aware I am at that point. But I'm very aware of
the Heisenberg principle.
R: Yes.
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S: I've stated it; I've understood it. I'm really determined
not to let my presence as an anthropologist, in spite of the fact
that I'm wearing those silly glasses.... [laughter] I didn't
realize it at the time!
R: No, you don't.- T-
>We're referring to the 1960s photographs of Anita in the
/
field. [laughter]
S: Yes. Exclu< g t4e s business on
the tape. But anyway, I don't want to ~ y k interrupt the
data.
I-m -r- .ryk cL-n o tht. So when I watch the Zuni
silversmith, I'm keen to know when I can ask questions. bIf:
,I'm not pouncing on someone,
demanding answers.
: mean, 'eaThe
same thing with the Hunter's Point thing. I'm really conscious of
the fact that I want to get the data out, buty~yp I I'm not
going to bombard these people.
R: Right. I wanted to ask you actually something very
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practical on that level: how did you take notes, or did you take
notes?--while you're in front of people?
S: Yes. Well, with the Washoe, I did.
R: Right. But at Hunter's Point, for instance.
S: I spent so long there..
... -that I might have written up a few things. And
besides, I had ( that photographic record for it
CsI can't recall at this point.... I know at the time,
and I think you can tell from the record, that I really was very
assiduous in sort of field notes.
a s u s
7 And the same thing for my dissertationl)
l o whether I actually jotted things down or....
S: But the woman was blind!
S: So.. &l / I probably did write things down. Her
husband wasn't, 6//dc
S/oig to ecal dt b adl ...g
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S: And the kids weren't. So I probably did write things
down.
R: Yes. I was thinking more in terms of how that affected
how people were responding to you, or if that made them
uncomfortable or.
e
R what, because as one of the good things about
working, I guess, with, quote, "professional" consultants or
informants is that they're used to the process.
S: They're used to it, yes.
R: But they as you point out later, too, and we'll get
to that, there're problems with...
R 7... that as well. I was just wondering how comfortable
you were.... It just made me think of/ .- Ia*4vthe Hunter's Point
project and how.
: ... you were handling all of that.
S: Right. You know, I cannot recall whether I was writing
things or not writing thing down.
I
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R-
I used to have a photographic memory.
S: )jo if I didn't write things down,.
S- ... I could do it later.
R: Yes. R/a~ AdKh !'h I think, actually, one of
the things that probably used to be taught / o/- ct/ a in
ethnographic field schools was probably A little tricks to
help you remember things, because....
S: No. I really just remembered everything.
R: Yes.
S: I don't anymore.
R: Yes.
S: [laughter] Unfortunately,...
i ..---7that's gone away. But at that time....
R: So... and when you were with the Zuni silversmiths,
did... were you afraid[?] to write notes...
S: I didn't write notes because...
a: 7. I was just sort of observing things.
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S: Yes. No, there wasn't anything to write up,...
S: .. I don't think. I may be wrong on this, but...
".. r do t... ha o 'A. To tell you the
truth, have no idea.
S: I always wrote a lot, _,w and I always wrote
copious notes for courses.
R: Yes. And also, I think, It th by the time you get
to the Washoe field school, yolr getting actually instructed
on...
S: Oh, they were telling us and looking at the notes.
R: Yes.
S: So all of those things were directed by them.
R: Yes.
S: They wanted all that stuff.
R: Was that foreign to you or felt obtrusive or too much
L4At
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/ th e a ...
S: Never gave it a second thought.
R: It's certainly an impressive record to look at, I'll tell
you in retrospect, compared to what is... taught....
S: How does it compare to the others? Did they do the same
thing?
R: I got my master's degree, and this is fine for the record
no for me with that single class in ethnographic methods.e
R: And I was at a great loss. I mean, it is too.....
R: ;;So I just did a lot... I winged a lot of things. And it's
only because at the point I was going through, the department was
just simply not focused on that.
S: L'ti-i rin't hav^be But I meant in terms of
the other people in the field school. Surely, their notes are in
the University of Nevada archives, as well.
R: Yes, they are. And the other ones I have looked at are
not as thorough. So either people did not turn them in, were not
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comfortable about turning them in, or they didn't do as good a job.
And I'm not talking about any specific people, because all I have
done is look through the file....
R: You know, just..
,A7^ ..-. look through.
S: I wola be*nerestieA e ybe they weren't
trying to get master's degrees.
R: That's what I'm thinking.
S: Or maybe .1I don't know. I probably
would have done it anyway,...
R-:--Ycs.-
Sj_ --.I kind-rrf-- LHink.
R: Was there as much in your ethnographic field /J
foy1methods class., -ad there been as much emphasis on genealogy
and kinship? Was that...
S. //No.
: /.[ret mett
S: No. I hardly remember any of that.
Al (In fact, the only thing I remember from David,
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_-the field methods class--[laughter] he would die laughing--he took
an Irish lullaby or jig or something Irish..
S: It was a recording. And we had to listen to it as many
times as it took to be able to write it on paper. And the point of
the exercise was everybody thinks they should put things on tape.
> But few people realize that for every, MpV7no, -qe hour
of tape, it's going to take you five hours to type it out.
: tTci:_h-i th !.- .. d a2 have other methods now;...
R: Yes.
S: ... we have foot pedals and an, that.-.. w-S speedier
typists and computers g6a ^ h o hjqf, which srarfk. maybe
cuts the time to three and a half hours. But, really, it will
take...
that amount of time. You have that built into your
project,.
.. is that's what this project's all about. But for the
ordinary anthropologist who wants to go out for six months or a
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year and put all the interviews on tape and then write a
dissertation or /,nr master's g~/1d s 4ai49 thesis /&Nf
d49s1* p based on that, the amount of time they would have to
spend just getting...
R: Transcribing it.
S: ... transcribing would be extraordinary. So I do remember
that particular exercise. *4 1e also had these notebooks of
9 U/+1 that we wrote or that he wrote~ >s p about
methodologies that people had used. So those were...
i-...i kind of interesting.
R: Do you remember any particular methods that struck you at
the time that you ./@/2 had decided that you would
always ,4 buyt p employ *-^..?
S: Well, besides participant observation,.
S5 .1 key informants, life histories... I mean, they're
really standard anthropology.
R: Right.
S: You know, they're all the standard... they're really just
very standard.
2-55
v-, -Yes, and kinship.
S: X-inship diagrams and so forth. But I didn't really
know... I'm not sure we practiced that much on how to do them.
R: Yes. And also, just.,eO2 the practicalities of
actually going into the field and going, "Well, what kind of
notebook should I take? And what...?" I mean, justeP "44the real
mundane... seemingly mundane, but it gets critical..
.. that everyone have their little system, because I've
been interested to see.~ ~A(j n Special Collections with this
growing collection of ethnographic field notes, everyone seems to
have their little...
Y a...
/.: 72. system.
S: I have a system.
2/ 7Definitely. Yes.
R: Did it evolve as you did different projects mE, .?
S: Well, I used the chemistry lab notebooks because they
were bound.
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R: Yes! [laughter] And their pages are numbered.
S: And the pages are numbered, u/e ^hrei
S. ^ at's it.
tAnd I don't remember if I... I was used to
A
them, anyway, but I think someone told me it was a good idea.
I don't think I came across that myself.
R: Because they are bound.
S: Yes. And so I had, t4T-L ~ hIs little 4i*tkdf-
techniques. But I think that I did get information on some of those
things.
s.
I think the people at San Francisco State were very
practical,..
-Yes.
7.. as well as theoretical. I-mea--I did think it was a
very wonderful place at the time.
R: Did you make -- ll, you -da ma use of ~r some of
the John Collier photographic methods in Dresslerville...
S: Yes.
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use of that?
R: / Because....
S: Yes, I used the same technique. I mapped out the .7
community. V
R: Yes. But you didn't take as many pictures A .. u
didn't actually take pictures of people 1 4, did you?
S: I hardly took any pictures.
R: Do you remember why?
S: People didn't want their picture taken.
R: Well, that'd be the best reason, but....
S: Yes. They were really 4i~d--f against it, and... it was
really my first cross-cultural experience,...
S: ... you know? And theyr -.g-ai.n.-s-
R: Yes. I was wondering if you'd actually been sort of
counseled not to as part of the....
S: I think maybe we must have,
/f .*
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and my skill I mean, I would roll my own film.
/ ..' into canisters and then go and develop it and print
it.
R: It would have been great if you hadn't listened to
whoever it was! [laughter]
S: Yes. I think we were told not to.
R: Well, maybe not for your study, because I think....
S: L / It would have been perfect, now that I think
about it. But we must have been told not to, because the lack of
pictures th s tl's the only thing I've ever done in my life
that I have almost no pictures of.
SR: That's interesting. I'm going to
S: Except for photographing the community, S s
there are no people in those photographs.
Mapped out all the roads and streets, which can be used
to day, uldbe nice contrast.t -{t ..-Q-
R: There... yes. That would be very....
2-59
S: Yes. But I only remember three or four... I did take
Clara Frank skinning a squirrel and cooking it. I did take Frieda
with some of her baskets.
S<- : J Have a beautiful picture--or had (I don't know if I still
even have it)--of Clara Frank k~jdme f in color. I don't know whose
camera that was--a very small picture.
S: And a couple of things of some kids. And that's it!
ii: : Now, I obviously... and I printed those myself.
R:
SS: But it is staggering, the lack of stfE, considering that
I was taking pictures every five minutes Oea e ..a e t-ecl4C&
R: [laughter] Yes!
S: I mean, literally.
S: It was calculated to...
R.
.2 C-' to be able to use it as ethnographic data. So I must
have been told not t
$""fE~ /
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S: ... in the field school. And the people were not overly
anxious# hk-e' ~-fi ft &&[A.. v-?3
R: I'm just struck by your saying that that was your first
cross-cultural experience. In what sense is it different from the
Hunte oint...? In what sense is that more cross-cultural than
your...?
S: Well, see, San Francisco in the 1960s was a very diverse
place.
R: So it was a question of...
./ degree rather than...?
S: And Dresslerville was a very is ate. unlike now,..
Sf4A was a very isolated, insular, bounded community. San
Francisco... I mean, Hunter's Point is connected to the rest of the
city.
S: hey were Americans. They were, yettw-krW,
funny t- ri. different, .
butawebut we
go,# to the supermarket an
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S: speakag English and,...
R: Yes. .
S:. ... you know,..
S: ..2 watcyu television. I mean, even though those things
did occur on +rer ot the...
She o
S .. olo .
S: ... reservation, the colony, yes. Call it the "colony."
But it really was different, because here I was just by myself....
Well, I guess Ed Montgomery ~/ was also working there, but our
paths really hardly ever crossed.
R: So you didn't... well, that was actually one thing I
wanted to ask; how much... O l, (4ttAV i
S: During the day we had to.. Ji ( d V }
,p41t n wat t I know he also worked with George Snooks, so
I think we shared one or two informants.
S: Ceretain... I think Wchrc dnd hy e worked wit
R: Where did you stay? Where did you stay in...?
A
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S: Well, that was the other thing.
S C~- .. I think we were told--I don't think we could have
come across this ourselves--that he would stay in Basque Hotel X,
and I would stay in Basque Hotel Y. And they/4pd1)e were
across the street from each other, and they did that because they jU
didn't want any suspicions of putting a male and a female..
S: together..
S: .2in the same...
S.-- ... place. And that was fine.
R: Right.
S: I mean, it wouldn't have been a problems. He and I were
very nice colleagues, and in.
S: fact, my... t~r-a---- boyfriend iS- at the time
actually did come and visit toward the end of the time I spent
there. And then I moved out of the Basque Hotel. I think I was in
the Basque Hotel for either... what was it, a six-week thing?
R: Yes.
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S: And so I was there probably for five weeks, and then the
last week moved out...
R: Was that the... one the Basque.).
R: hotels in Gardnerville?
S: Yes.
:. And they said, unlike s~-mr the Paiute aff,
where people could actually live in the communities)
."2 u'd have to live at the Basque Hotel and commute to
Dresslerville. OK. I was very devastated by that.
R: I bet.
S: That did not please me at all, in spite of the fact that
I'd been in Basque country when I went through the caves.
I1
S: And I was very disappointed that I couldn't live in the
community.
R: Yes. I can see that, that that would have had an effect.
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Wedzl ?wh a. ?
S: And had to live so far.
R: And, also, in one of the memos that I read, you also were
warned against doing any night fieldwork.
S: Yes. And we could only be there during the daytime)..
S: .. in Dresslerville. So we couldn't go to any night
ceremony.... I was very upset about that.
R: Yes. Do you think they were being overly protective, or
do you think... did you see enough to make you think maybe it was
a valid concern __
S: Oh. If... had I been the professor, I would have said the
same thing.
R: Yes.
S: Yes. But wA< Va/ fik w3oldd but I think (C. the
reason we couldn't live there had to do with the way the tribal
k'n and the colony was constructed or... technically. Not the
A
physical buildings, but I think...
S: ... the bylaws ap~,. I don't know. I mean,
something?\.
2-65
Anita Sprin g 2-66
.K legalistic.
R: Right. Right.
S: In the reality of it, there were people who had houses
who might have given us or... you know, each one of us or one of
us...
-fj71 a room to let... to stay in.
R: Right. So did the. the people W3t were in the
Paiute field school, some of them did Atay...
R: j with families? Because wouldn't that...
S/ oud13pt be real difficult to separ... wouldn't
you become over-. .
: ... identified[?]?
S: I don't know the answer.
.. But I don't remember other people living in a hotel so
far away from their field site.
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S: I don't remember -that-
R. -Right. S- w.-c ui cLyou.. ?
S: And they were on... see, the other Indian groups were on
reservations.
R: That's true. That's different.... You're right. There's
something about the mechanics o ..
R: ... or logistics of that whole thing.
S: wgr d or example, when I went to Nevad.
S: in April...
S: ./ I took that field trip to the Pyramid Lake. And so we
were right on the reservation there.
R: Right.
S: And people could stay there.
R: Right. You could have camped there.
S: Y- So I think that some of the people managed to
be much closer...
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Sc=== to their field...
S: area or even be in it. I don't know; it'd be very
interesting to know that. Well, Warren will know the answer to
that.
R: I./ 4 will ask.
S: I'd like the answer, too. But I was very disturbed that
not only did I have... was I not in the community, but I had to
deal with this whole other ethnography, ethnic group of the
Basques,...
2. as much as anthropologically that was interesting.
es.
S: But it would take me away from thinking about the Washoe.
R: Right.
S: So I had to confront Basque culture atr*~=. : every
day at 5:30, J-Qsgf% after being with the Washoe from 9:00 to
?(k A
5:00.
R: I never thought of that. So that at the time, the Basque
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Hotel was very Basque.
S: The meals were communal.
R: Yws=-=Y--q-
.2rhe people in the hotel were, of course, yeiakw, here
I am, a single female eating my meals there, ~ar\irw, being sort
of under their care, .
S: -'---- Ar-d ft's a small mom-and-pop
operation,..
S: -w- y. ow~.., with probably a couple of young sons or
sons-in-laws or.... I mean, it had to all be confronted daily.
R: Yes. I hadn't even thought of that complication. And, of
course, it'd be like moving into a... any small community, but what
you're really doing is out there, but now you got to come back
home....
S: Yes. These sheepherders.... You know, the reason the
Basques are there is because the whole sheep industry in Nevada.
S: 7And they would bring over these people who were out-yeI-
ozm, herding sheep in the Old Country and out in the mountains,
_ for most of their lives and not needing to watch
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television and drive cars.
S: d they'd... and there would... some of these men...
S: .. would be sitting next to me,...
S: .. speaking Basque and rudimentary English during the
evening meal. And I'm trying to think about the Washoe.
R: [laughter] Oh, that's quite wonderful!
I'd never even thought of that complexity. And, yes, I
can see.... It must have been very psychically exhausting to say
the least.
S: It probably was. I don't really remember being so
distressed over it.
But now that I think about it, obviously, that was
happening. As an anthropologist, I thought all this ethnic stuff
and cultural diversity a ~'- '- '- was interesting. But it
was something I did have to confront .
... on a daily basis...
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S: .. to eat.
R: To eat! [la
S4: nm
S: becausee I had a room; I didn't have cooking facilities.
2R: Yes.
Z I didn't have food; I didn't go shopping.
R: Well, I can see not staying in the community and not
potentially being able to eat evening meals with some of your
Washoe....
S: I don't remember eating lunch there.
S,:- 1 den' t-=zre-. d "
R- ---Sc, hat ... tyou h /
R: Don't you think mealtime is a kind of a..?
S: Oh, you bet. I just told you how at Hunter's Point I
would eat with that family frequently.
R-----Yeas.
S: OK?
s.
S:2 That one family. And because if I wanted to be there for
long periods of time, which I was, it could be lunch; it could be
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dinner. I was there after dark in San Francisco.
R: Have you ever... have since... since the field school,
have you... well, I know you have, but I need to ask the question
anyway--have you been in a field situation where you're working as
part of a team of other anthropologists who are going into the
field simultaneously?
S: Oh, all the time. This pile over here, ...
S: ..?Twhich just came there yesterday, is a compilation of
Malawi, Swaziland, Kenya, Ethiopia, and Jamaica--all the courses I
taught, methodology courses, and then the projects with other
anthropologists and scientists and then me leading the teams to go
p,,+- -1t4 /m 4-e rfals- Afve u -
and collect the data. I ;id=A -s for Russ Bernard g14, who is
A
interested in the methodology.
2-So I've been doing a lot of that.
R: And you have been doing this... that kind of anthropology
for many years....
S: Oh, yes. The last twenty years.
R: Been a focus of your career, hasn't it?
S: Yes. zEa==Y__s.
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.y- Definitely.
R: And I realize now, having asked the question, that being
in a field school with a bunch of other students is nothing like
working on a project, or is it? Maybe I need to just ask the
question, Ai was there an atmosphere in the field school
amongst the other students and with the professors that you were
kind of colleagues and you were somehow cooperating and going to
pool any of this data?
S: Oh, that's a good.
p. good question. Yes. I did not feel that it was a
competitive situation with the others.
-S: I felt it was very collegial. On the other hand, we
didn't really pool data. Now, for example, Ed was doing
ethnobotany, as I recall, or medical, which I was not interested in
at that point.
: I subsequently did some of that, that's....
R: I know. That's very interesting that you....
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S: But... yes. But it didn't interest me, and so the data he
had, he sometimes told me, and I guess I must have told him,
because we were colleagues and occasionally would join each other
after dinner to talk about... or maybe for dinner, to have a
different place to eat.
R: Yes.
S: Or not have to talk Basque or something,...
R: [laughter] Sure.
S: [laughter] ... as I recall. But we were both very
studious, so we didn't really spend a lot of... that much time. But
it was very collegial,.
-.. not competitive.
R: There was a... it's somewhere, and I have it... you also
made. -;zyfmadc some comments about some information you'd gotten
from Betty Beruti at the time...
B.-----. T..a--- Toyi...- from her study in Loyalton.
And Yl^7. from the notes that you took, and I'm not certain that
I actually wrote them down, but I make reference to them,t t-/A it
looked like you were ahead... you were in the position of asking
some of the other students for some of the data on marriage
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patterns or....
S: Oh. I probably di
R*
-R And if you can get that letter from Gordon, whoever he
was,...
er]
: .. was.. .obviously someone who worked on the
Paiute,...
s.
S: ... I was in the mode of asking people, "Well, was
it this way there? And what did you get?" Definitely.
R---=Ye .
S: :Ed couldn't help me because he was working on..
qn--Sombt-Ijag ....
S: .. something else. ..
S-7'I never got any data from him, and I guess the stuff I
was working on wasn't of any interest to him. But those other
people who were elsewhere, I didn't really know what their topics
were, I guess.
R: Did... and how did you pick you pick your topic?
S: Well, probably the social organization part.
2/
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... s what... where I started from
:K. I was going to study their social organization,
because I probably just had had David CmPif5T' s classe- me ...
S: at might have been what.... I'd just b red yl
done the field methods, social anthropology.
0 ? part.
R: Do you think there was ~y/ oAhdi n any link
Hlink
to your Hunt r point study, focusing on the absence or presence of
the father, and then interested in marriage per se?
S: No. No. No. I don't... I really don't think so'.
S: I think it came from the social organization
.-': It's just that the Washoe are bilateral, and kinship ties
dissolve after... You know, had they been, jvjes segmentary
4j
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lineages or something like that ...
S: / probably would have gotten into... I probably
wouldn't have focused on marriage....
R: I see. Ye.
S. If you get...
R: o, no, that...
S: If you get my point,..
S: ..-.I probably would have gone into, ye-xm*r, how this
lineage w --in- Mi-. R -n_ fission and fusion&cQI I was all
A
involved in that part of social organization..
S: and kinship.
S: But because their moieties were very weak, because they
were bilateral kinship with these ties falling apart after....
And, y==knc=, and so then they had to marry somebody, and this on
wasn't a relative, and did they have sororal polygyny, you know? So
that I think it just evolved..
S: ... into that topic. I'm not sure I went there with the
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idea of studying.
S: / arriag
__-,- patterns.
R: Yes. Because you also... I mean, from the field notes--
and it's just a sense I get; it's not anything especially explicit-
-you also were focusing on... well, perhaps it was part of
semantics, relationships. You were... it seemed you were very
interested..
S.
R: .. n issues of attraction, maintaining a
relationship...
es.
R: /What ideas were of...
R: what a relationship is..
R: ..between the genders.
S: I don't think you have seen the one publication besides
the thesis.
R: No, I haven't.
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S: And that's in my other briefcase with all the material.
R: OK. I'm going to get that.
S: But I wanted to make a... give you a copy of that..
S: ."~- t was published in the Cornell Journal of
Social Relations, and it was the first thing I published in my
life. Well, no, I guess the Hunter5Point...
S: ..7 thing was.
R: Yes.
End of Tape 2
*
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