Supplement to Gazette: Legislative...

Title: Saint Vincent government gazette
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00077473/00434
 Material Information
Title: Saint Vincent government gazette
Alternate Title: Government gazette
St. Vincent government gazette
Physical Description: v. : ; 35 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Saint Vincent
Publisher: G.P.O.
Place of Publication: Kingstown, St. Vincent
Kingstown St. Vincent
Publication Date: May 5, 1959
Frequency: weekly
Subject: Gazettes -- Periodicals -- Saint Vincent   ( lcsh )
Genre: federal government publication   ( marcgt )
legislation   ( marcgt )
periodical   ( marcgt )
Spatial Coverage: Saint Vincent and the Grenadines -- Saint Vincent
Dates or Sequential Designation: v. 1, no. 1 (1868)-v. 112, no. 48 (Tues., 23 Oct. 1979)
General Note: Description based on: Vol. 111, no. 1 (Tues., 3 Jan. 1978); title from caption.
General Note: Supplements which accompany some numbers contain extraordinary issues, ordinances, statutory rules of order, etc.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00077473
Volume ID: VID00434
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 19844741
lccn - sn 89018505
 Related Items
Succeeded by: Government gazette

Table of Contents
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    Supplement to Gazette: Legislative Council Proceeding and Debates (Hansard) in the Second Session (1955-1956) held on 3rd November, 1955
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Full Text



nublitshed by Anthoripl.

VOL. 92.] SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 5 MAY, 1959. [No. 25.


No. 173.
It is notified for general information that there will be a meeting of the
Legislative Council at the Council Chamber, Kingstown, on Thursday, 7th May,
1959, at 10.00 a.m.
The Order of the Day of this meeting is published with this issue of the
A cordial invitation to attend is extended to the general public.
5th May, 1959.
No. 165.
(No. 22 of 1946)
IN THE MATTER OF THE ACQUISITION by the Governor in Council of
a certain parcel of land at Fountain "A" in the Parish of St. George for
a public purpose.

SWHEREAS it is enacted by Section 3 of the Land Acquisition Ordinance 1946
(No. 22 of 1946) that if the Governor in Council considers that any land should
be acquired for a public purpose he may cause a declaration to that effect to be
AND WHEREAS it is considered by the Governor in Council that the under-
mentioned parcel of land should be acquired for a public purpose, to wit,
the water supply route from Eyrie to Kingstown:
Now IT Is HEREBY DECLARED by His Excellency the Governor acting in
accordance with the advice of the Executive Council of the Colony of Saint
Vincent that upon the Second Publication of this Declaration in the Gazette
all that parcel of land at Fountain "A" in the Parish of St. George the property

S tSa

162 SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 5 MAY, I959.-(No. 25.)

of the respective persons set out'in the Schedule here shall vest absolutely in
the Crown. '
the Number G3/48 showing the above mentioned parcel of land has been pre-
pared by H. Neblett, Licensed Land Surveyor lodged on the 21st day of Sep-
tember, 1953, at the Lands and Surveys Department of Kingstown in the said
Colony, and can be inspected at all reasonable hours at the said Department.

Clerk of Executive Council.

This is the schedule referred to above:-

Plan No. Owner Area Adjoining Lands

G3/48 Ormond Cupid 1,791 sq. ft. Surrounded by Ormond Cupid

Dated at Kingstown this 21st day of April, 1959.

Clerk of Executive Council.

No. 174.
(No. 22 of 1946)


IN THE MATTER OF THE ACQUISITION by the Governor in Council
of a certain parcel of land at Mt. Pleasant Mountain in the Parish of
Charlotte for a public purpose.



WHEREAS it is enacted by Section 3 of the Land Acquisition Ordinance
1946 (No. 22 of 1946) that if the Governor in Council considers that any land
should be acquired for a public purpose he may cause a declaration to that effect
to be made:
AND WHEREAS it is considered by the Governor in Council that the under-
mentioned parcel of land should be acquired for a public purpose, to wit, the
construction of a water catchment for a spring to provide water for public use:
Now IT Is HEREBY DECLARED by His Excellency the Governor acting in
accordance with the advice of the Executive Council of the Colony of Saint
Vincent that upon the Second Publication of this Declaration in the Gazette
all that parcel of land at Mt. Pleasant Mountain in the Parish of Charlotte
the property of Catherine Jackson measuring 501 square feet in area and
bounded on the North and West by the remaining lands of the said Catherine
Jackson on the South by the lands of Rose Dasent on the East by a Public Bye
Road shall vest absolutely in the Crown.
the Number C2/117 showing the above mentioned parcel of land has been
prepared by E. Stinson Campbell Licensed Land Surveyor and can be inspected
at all reasonable hours at the Lands and Surveys Department of Kingstown
in the said Colony.

Dated at Kingstown this 30th day of April, 1959.

Clerk of Executive Council.

SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 5 MAY, 1959.-(No. 25.)

No. 175.


In pursuance of the requirements of section 3 (2) (a) of the Aid to Pioneer
Industries Ordinance, 1952, it is hereby notified for general information that
the Governor in Council proposes to make the undermentioned Order under
section 3 (1) of the said Ordinance.

Any person who objects to the making of such Order shall give notice
in writing of his objection, and of the grounds on which he relies in support
thereof, to the Clerk of the Executive Council on or before the 30th day of
May, 1959.
Clerk of Executive Council.
29th April, 1959.


1. Short title. This Order may be cited as the Aid to Pioneer
Industries (Re-manufacture of Worn Motor Vehicle Tyres) Order, 1959.

2. Declaration of Pioneer Industry. The establishment, main-
tenance and operation in the Colony of plant for the remanufacture of worn
motor vehicle tyres is hereby declared to be a pioneer industry for the purposes
of the Aid to Pioneer Industries Ordinance, 1952, and re-manufactured motor
vehicle tyres are hereby declared to be pioneer products for the said purposes.

Made by the Governor in Council under section 3 (1) of the Aid to Pioneer
Industries Ordinance, 1952 (No. 5 of 1952) this day of 1959.

Clerk of Executive Council.
(F. 34/1951 (I.).)

No. 176.

SNo. 179.


His Honour the Administrator has
been pleased to approve the appoint-
ment of Miss BELLE ALLEN, Domestic
Science Instructress, Education De-
partment, as Home Economics Instruc-
tress, Education Department, with ef-
fect from 9th March, 1959.
5th May, 1959.
(P.F. 287.)

No. 177.
a Departmental Sister, Colonial Hospi-
tal, with effect from 1st April, 1959, on
one year's probation.
5th May, 1959.
(P.F. 993. M. 1/1953.)

No. 178.
Mr. CHARLES BAPTISTE has been ap-
pointed as Bailiff, Judicial Department,
with effect from 1st May, 1959.
5th May, 1959.
(J. 27/1943.)


The Most Reverend Mgr. JUSTIN
FIELD, O.P., D.D., Bishop of St.
George's, Grenada, has been appointed
as a Marriage Officer of the Colony with
effect from 5th May, 1959.
5th May, 1959.
(J. 22/1951 II.)

No. 180.
The Reverend Miss GLADYS DOOLEY
has been appointed as a Marriage Offi-
cer of the Colony with effect from 5th
May, 1959.
5th May, 1959.
(J. 22/1951 II.)

No. 181.

Mr. C. L. ANDERSON, Class III Clerk,
Magistrate's Office, has been granted 45
days vacation leave with effect from

164 SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 5 MAY, 1959.-(No. 25.)

13th April, 1959, prior to resignation
from the General Clerical Service.
5th May, 1959.
(P.F. 836.)

No. 182.

Copies of the Legislative Council
Proceedings and Debates (Hansard) in
the Second Session (1955-1956) held on
3rd November, 1955, which may be seen
at the Government Office, Kingstown
Library, and at all Revenue Offices and
District Post Offices are published with
this issue of the Gazette.
5th May, 1959.

No. 183.

Medical Delivery Van (1/4 ton Mor-
ris), T 215, in running order. This Van
may be inspected at Public Works De-
partment, Arnos Vale, on working days
during the usual office hours (i.e. 9 a.m.
to 4 p.m. from Monday to Friday and
9 a.m. to 12 noon on Saturdays).
Offers by sealed tenders addressed to
the Chairman, Tenders Board, Govern-
ment Office, Kingstown, and clearly
marked on the outside of the envelope
"Tender for Medical Delivery Van,
T 215" will be accepted up to 3 p.m. on
Friday the 15th May, 1959.
5th May, 1959.

No. 184.


Applications are invited for the fol-
lowing posts at the Farm School for
Delinquents, St. Lucia.
(a) Joint posts of Headmaster and
(b) Assistant Masters.
The salary of the Headmaster is in
the scale of $2,100 x $120-$2,700.
The Headmaster will be responsible
for the organising and directing of the
whole work of the school. He will be
required to teach general subjects; to
organise leisure time activities and to
undertake some individual case work to
be carried out through direct contact
and cooperation with the Probation Offi-
Applicants should have teaching ex-
perience and have a genuine interest in
the welfare of under-privileged boys.

The post is resident and a suitable
quarter will be provided for a married
Matron: The salary is in the scale of
$1,020 x $60-$1,500 x $120-$1,980
per annum.
The post is resident and the matron
will undertake the duties of a House-
mother and should have the ability to
create a home atmosphere.
Assistant Master: The salary is in the
scale of $1,020 x $60-$1,500 x $120-
$1,980 per annum.
The duties of the Assistant Master
will be generally to assist the Headmas-
ter in the direction and Administration
of the school and to deputise for him
when required.
A knowledge of farming, crafts and
leisure activities will be an advantage.
Single accommodation for a single man
will be provided.
Applications giving full particulars
of name, age, marital status, qualifica-
tions and experience should be for-
warded to the Assistant Administrator
and Establishment Officer, Government
Office, Castries, St. Lucia, and should
reach him not later than Friday, 15th
May, 1959.
5th May, 1959.

No. 169.

Applications are invited for the post
of Dental Surgeon (School Dental Offi-
cer) St. Vincent.
The salary of the post, which is
pensionable, is in the scale $3,840 x
$120-$4,800 (800 x 25-1,000)
plus a 20% pensionable pay addition.
Private practice will be permitted,
provided that it does not interfere
with the officer's official duties. The
appointment, which may be on con-
tract if desired, carries with it the
liability to transfer to any post of
equivalent status within the wind-
ward Islands.
Applicants should possess a Dental
qualification registrable in St. Vin-
cent, and should have had at least
three years post-graduate experience
in Practical Dentistry and some expe-
rience in Social Dentistry. He will be
required to advise the Government of
St. Vincent on the dental health of
school children and to undertake the
dental care of children throughout
the Island, and the Grenadines.

SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 5 MAY, 1959.-(No. 25.)

Further particulars regarding the ap-
pointment may be obtained from the
Chief Secretary, Windward Islands,
Grenada, to whom applications giving
full particulars, qualifications and ex-
perience and accompanied by two tes-
timonials (which will not be return .d)
should be addressed to reach him not
later than the 31st May, 1959.
28th April, 1959.
(M. 34/1939 (A).)

No. 170.

Applications are invited from suit i;ly
qualified persons for the po-t of ExICU
tive Officer, Windward Islands.
1. Appointment. The appointment
is non-pensionable and will be for a
period of three years in the first in-
stance. It will be subject to the Colo-
nial Regulations and to the local Gen-
eral Orders in force for the time being,
in so far as they are applicable.
2. Salary. The salary scale of the
appointment is $4,800 per annum rising
by annual increments of $120 to $6,240
per annum plus 20%0 pay addition. The
current rate of exchange of the Wind-
ward Islands dollar is 4.8') c'uals 1
sterling. Half salary of the appoint-
ment will be paid from the date of em-
barkation, and full salary from the date
of arrival in the Colony.
3. Allowances. A car is a necessity
and a travelling allowance of $240
(50) per annum (plus casual mileage
for journeys of 5 miles and over) is
paid to the officer. Subsistence and
transport allowances are provided in
accordance.with local regulations in re-
spect of approved travel on duty, in-
eluding visits to other Colonies of the
Windward group. (The officer is ex-
pected to divide his time equally be-
tween the four Colonies).
4. Quarters. Neither Government
quarters nor a housing allowance in lieu
is provided.
5. Leave. Vacation leave on full
salary will be granted at the rate of one
week for each completed period of three
months' resident service to be taken on
the satisfactory completion of the pe-
riod of the Officer's engagement.
6. Passages. Free passages to the
Windward Islands will be provided for
the officer, his wife and children, not ex-
ceeding five persons in all, on first ap-
pointment, and free passages back to
the officer's homeland on the satisfactory
-completion of the period of the officer's
engagement. Children to be under

eighteen years of age, unmarried and
dependent on the officer.
7. Duties. The duties of the post
are- as follows:-
(i) Responsibility for the design of
all new public buildings in the
Windward Islands;
(ii) Collaboration with the Public
Works Departments in the exe-
cution of buildings and in build-
ing research and experiments;
(iii) Advice to the Housing and
planning Authorities on all
housing and planning develop-
8. General Information. Govern-
ment officers are liable to taxation im-
posed by local enactments.
Applications should be addressed to
the Chief Secretary of the Windward
Islands, Grenada, The West Indies, and
should reach him not later than 31st
May, 1959.
28th April, 1959.

By Order,

for Act g Government Secretary.
5th May, 1959.



The West India Regiment Recruiting
Team will be visiting Saint Vincent
shortly to select Recruits for the Regi-
The Regiment offers a full time
career to young men who are physically
fit, between the ages of 171/2 and 23
years, not less than 5' 6" in height and
weighing not less than 130 Ibs.
Submit applications with the required
particulars to the Chief of Police to
reach him not later than 9th May, 1959.
Thosei persons who failed in the last
selection need not re-apply.

Chief of Police.

Office of the Chief of Police,
Police Headquarters,
21st April, 1959.

166 SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, -5 MAY, 1959.-(No. 25.)

ON 1ST APRIL, 1959.

Average circulation during February, $
British Caribbean Currency ...... 71,795,257.00
Demonetized Government Notes ...... 1,027,907.00

Total average ...... ...... ...... ...... 72,823,164.00

British Caribbean Notes and
circulation on April 1st,
Trinidad and Tobago
Barbados ...... ...... ......
British Guiana ...... ......
St. Vincent ...... .... ..
St. Lucia
Dominica ...... ......
St. Kitts
Montserrat ......
"Proof Set" Coins ......

Coins in
1959 $
...... ...... 35,319,654.00
...... ...... 7,194,225.00
...... ...... 19.439,227.50
...... 3,580,100.00
... ...... 829,400.00
.... 1,034,003.00
...... 1,934,400.00
...... 2,814,300.00
...... 1,589,600.00

Total British Caribbean Notes and Coins
in circulation on 1st April 1959.
Demonetized Government notes outstan-
ding cn 1st April, 1959.
Trinidad and Tibago ...... ...... ......
British Guiana ...... ...... .. ......
Barbados ...... ..... ... ......

Total Demcnetized Government Notes
outstanding on 1st April, 1950.

Total circulation cf British Caribbean
not3s & ccins at 1st April, 1959,





$74,059,136.50 $3,708,876.00

67,33 .00


$75,082,092.00 $3,708,876.00

Executive Commissioner,
British Caribbean Currency Board.

-ritish C ':-ib-ean Currency Board,
Treasury Chambers,
Port of Spain,
Trinidad, W.I.


It is hereby notified for general information that a new shipment of
vegetable seeds has arrived and will be on sale at the Office of the Department
of Agriculture on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday between the hours
of 9 a.m. and 12 noon and from 1.00 p.m. to 3 p.m., and-on Wednesdays and
Saturday between the hours of 9 a.m. and 11 a.m. The prices are as follows -
Per oz. Per Pkt.
Cabbage .Early Jersey Wakefield 40 10
Cabbage .Succession 42 11
Cabbage .. Flat Dutch 42 11
Tomato .. Beefsteak 84 11
Tomato .. Marglobe 80 10
Eggplant .. Black Beauty 120 15
Parsley .. Paramount 30 08
Pepper California Wonder 152 20

10th April, 1t59.

,Superintendent of Agriculture.

SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 5 MAY, 1959.-(No. 25.) 167



It is notified for general information that due to the increased cost of
materials etc. the charges for articles manufactured by the Prisons will be
as follows:-

BAKERY (For Government Institutions only)


$10.26-$11.00 per 100 lbs..
$11.01-$11.75 ,, ,,,, .
$11.76-$12.50 ,,,, .
$12.51-$13.25 ,, ,,,, .
$13.26-$14.00 ,, ,,,, .

BOOT REPAIRS (For Governme

whole sole
1/ sole, heel, innersole,
1/2 sole & leather heel
1 / sole & rubber heel
/2 sole only
heel built


whole sole
1/2 sole, heel, innersole, we]
sole & heel (male)
1/2 sole & heel (female)
1/ sole only
built (male) .
repairs (canvas, patch, etc.

.12 cts. per lb.
.1. 12, ,, ,,
. 13 ,, ,, ,,
S 131 ,, ,, ,,
. 14 ,, ,, ,

ent Departments only)
S $ 3.20 per pair
it .. $ 3.00 ,, ,
$ 2.40 ,, ,,
$ 2.04 ,,- ,,
.. $ 1.84 ,,
.84 ,,
$ 3.25 ,, ,,
t .$ 3.00 ,, ,,
$ 2.60 ,, ,,
. $ 1.50 ,, ,,
S $ 2.00 ,, ,,
.$11.00,, ,,
$ 8.00 ,,
) .. Varies



*ushed Stone
,, ,
,, ,
,, ,
,, ,


..$8.00 per cord
ss, %" .. .. .. .70 per brl.
5" . . .. 65 ,,
1" .. .. ... .30 ,, ,,
1Y2" .. .. .. .24 ,, ,,
21/2" .. .. .. .10 ,, ,,
.. 60 ,,
(Stones decrease 20% to Govern-
ment Departments)

CONCRETE BLOCKS (For general supply)
Mixture-1.3.4 sizes 4" x 9" x 18" .. 36 cts. each
,, ,, ,, ,, 3" x 9" x 18" .. 30 ,, ,,
,, ,, ... 22" x 9" x 18" .. 26 ,,
,, ,, ,, ,, ,, 2" x 9" x 18" .. 23 ,,

COFFINS (for Govt. Depts.)
Still Born
From 1 ft. 7"-2 ft. 6" .
2 ft. 7"-3 ft. 6"
,, 3 ft. 7"-4 ft. 5"
4 ft. 6"-5 ft. 9"
,, 5 ft. 10"-6 ft. 6"

Supplied to

$ 1.80 each
4.50 ,,
6.50 ,,
10.80 ,,

SDiscount 5%
on bulk pur-
Schase by Gen-
eral Public of
1,000 and
Govt. Depts. at 20%

Sales may be
made to the
general public
at an increase
of 50%,



.. 50% of the cost of materials used
or supplied
.. .. .. Varies








168 SINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 5 MAY, '-959.-(No. 25.)

COCONUT COIR (For general supply)


Fibre .. .. .. .. .. .. 10 cts. per lb.
.. 8 ,, ,, ,, in lots of 5001bs.
& over to Local Firms.
Door Mats .. .. .. .. .. $2.00 each
Car Mats .. .. .. .. .. $10.00 per outfit of not more than
two pieces.
Supplied to Govt. Depts. at 20%

TINSMITH (Govt. Depts. only)
Pans, Cups, Tin-sheets, etc...

... 25% less than market price.

TAILORING (Govt. Depts. only)
Blue Tunics ..
,, Trousers .. ..
S Shorts .. .. .
White Tunics .. .. .
Khaki Tunics .: .. .
,, Trousers
,, Shorts ..
Shirts .. .. .
Repairs and other work

$3.50 each
2.00 per pair
1.08 ,, ,
2.16 each
1.20 ,,
.96 per pair
.66 ,,
.84 each -

Provided all
materials fur-
nished by
Depts. con-

These new prices are effective from 1st May, 1959.

C. E. ELLIS ('apt.),
Superintendent of Prisons.
20th April 1959.


TIONS, 1959.

The Oversea School Certificate and
Higher School Certificate Examination
of the University of Cambridge Local
Examination Syndicate will be held at
this Centre in November and December
1959 comuencing .on Monday 23rd
The fees, which should be paid into
the Treasury, are as follows.--
School Certificte:
Full Certificate .. 3 7s. 6d.
Partial Entries
(3 subjects or less) .. 110s. Od.
Higher School Certificate:
ERtry Fee payable by all~
candidates .,, 15s. Od.
For each Principal sub-
ject .. 1 Os. Od.
For each Subsidiary
subject .. 10s. Od.
For the General Paper 10s. Od.
SLocal Fee--'H.S.C. and
S. Certificate .. 5s. Od.
Entry Forms may be obtained from
the Local Secretary. They should be
filled in and returned to him, together
with the Treasury receipts not later
than Saturday, 13th June, 1q59.

Private Candidates, other than Even-
ing Class Students and Student Teach-
ers, should enquire at the Education
Office for further particulars before
May 23rd.

Local Secretary.
30th April, 1959.



Notice is hereby given that an Order
in Council gazetted on 7th April, 1959
declares the Close Season for Cotton to
be. as follows:-
St. Vincent from 1st May, 1959 to
15th August, 1959.
St. Vincent Grmnadines from 1st
April, 1959, to 30th June, 1959.
All Cotton and 03hro plants must be
destroyed before the Close Season com-
mences. Owing to the prevalence of
Pink Boll Worms, growers are asked to
pay particular attention to the cleaning
up of the Cotton Hoiuses and Fields.
Any person not complying with the
Close Season Regulations will be liable
to prosecution.
Superintendent of Agriculture.
27th April, 1959.

SAINT VINCENT, TUESDAY, 5 MAY, 1959.-(No. 25.) 169


The undermentioned District Registrars shall attend for the performance
of their duties at their Districts every day, from the hour of eight thirty o'clock
in the forenoon to three o'clock in the afternoon, except on Sunday and any
Bank or Public Holiday:-
District Registry. Name of Officer.


. The
. The

Mesopotamia .. The
Georgetown .. The i
Bridgetown/Biabou .. The I
Layou .. The
Barrouallie .. The I
Chateaubelair .. The
Colonarie .. The
Sandy Bay .. The I
Lowmans Wd. .. The I
Bequia .. The I
Union Island .. The I
Mustique .. The I
Canouan .. Miss
Mayreau .. The I

Registrar General's Department-
Kingstown, St. Vincent.
24th April, 1959.




The attention of owners of un-occu-
pied building lots at the above Housing
Schemes is drawn to Section 7 of the
First Supplementary Scheme under
which condition building lots were sold.
"Sec. 7. Building construction
shall commence within six months of
the material date of the Scheme or
of the date of purchase of the lot,
whichever is the later, and shall be
completed within one year from the
date of commencement. The Central
Housing and Planning Authority may
in its discretion grant an extension of
the above named periods.
In case of default the Central Au-
thority may repurchase the lot at the
price for which it was sold together
with a reasonable sum for any build-
ing or part of a building whose con-
struction was approved by the Au-
Owners of building lots who have not
yet built are hereby notified that the
Authority proposes to take action to re-
cover the lots in accordance with the
Executive Officer & Secretary.
24th April, 1959.

Deputy Registrar.
'on-Commissioned Officer-in-Charge
liaqua Police Station
Ion-Commissioned Officer-in-Charge
sopotamia Police Station.
Revenue Officer-in-Charge.
District Postmistress.
Non-Commissioned Officer-in-Charge
rou Police Station.
Revenue Officer-in-Charge.
Non-Commissioned Officer-in-Charge
iteaubelair Police Station.
Non-Commissioned Officer-in-Charge
onarie Police Station.
District Postmistress.
revenue Officer-in-Charge.
District Officer.
lead Teacher, Government School.
Dorothy deRoche, Retreat.
District Postmaster.
Acting Registrar General.



Notice is hereby given to all persons
whose accounts with the Authority are
in arrears or overdue, that fourteen
days from the date of this notice, action
will be taken in accordance with the
Slum Clearance and Housing Ordin-
ance, to recover all moneys overdue.

Executive Officer & Secretary.
24th April, 1959.


This is to certify that in accordance
with Ordinance No. 1 of 1934, the
Georgetown Cane Farmers' Agricul-
tural Credit Society has on the 19th
day of March, 1959, been registered at
the office of the Registrar of Agricul-
tural Credit Societies as a Society oper-
ating under the Agricultural Credit
Societies laws of the Colony.

for Registrar,
Agricultural Credit Societies.
20th April, 1959.

[Price 30 cts.




2nd Sitting

Thursday, 3rd November, 1955.

The Honourable Legislative Council met at 10 o'clock this morning.


[MR. PRESIDENT in the Chair]
His Honour A. F. GILES, Administrator.

The Honourable B. F. DIAS, Acting Crown Attorney,
S. P. R. ELLS, Colonial Treasurer,
E. A. C. HUGHES, First Nominated Member,
R. E. BAYNES, Member for Kingstown,
S. J. A. BAYNES, Member for St. George,
G. H. CHARLES, Member for Central Windward,
S. A. C. CYRUS, Second Nominated Member,
S. E. T. JOSHUA, Member for North Windward,
S. S. E. SLATER, Member for North Leeward,
S. C. L. TANNIS, Member for the Grenadines,
S. H. F. YOUNG, Member for South Leeward,
. L. C. LATHAM, Member for South Windward,
A. B. C. DOSSANTOS, Third Nominated Member.

MR. PRESIDENT: Minutes of.the Meet-
ing of Legislative Council have been
circulated to Honourable Members. Are
these correct?
HON. A. C. CYRUS: Mr. President, I
think there should be a small amend-
ment here. In No. 10-speaking on the
Adjournment, the second paragraph-it
reads "The Member for the Grenadines
expressed thanks for the effort being
given in", but I think it should read-
"The Member for the Grenadines ex-
pressed thanks for the effort being

MR. PRESIDENT: And also that one of
the words "being" be deleted.
should be "effort being made to assist".
MR. PRESIDENT: Yes. So that it would
now read "The Member for the Grena-
dines expressed thanks for the effort
being made to assist the islands of the
Southern Grenadines".
Is there any objection to that amend-
With that amendment may these Min-
utes stand?

MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Members,
at our last Meeting the Honourable
Member for Kingstown mentioned in the
course of moving a motion that he con-
sidered that our Meeting was ultra vires
and that we were wrong in proceeding
with, public business, as we should only
be called together to meet and start the
Session and then we should have ad-
journed. There is no basis for that sug-
gestion. The Crown Attorney and I have
made a thorough search and I can assure
Honourable Members that our last Meet-
ing was not a waste of time and that all
our business was quite regular.
But I have however, to apologise to
the House, and I may say that this per-
haps was in Mr. Baynes' mind when he
made his. remarks, that we did fail in
one important aspect. We failed to carry
out the election of the Deputyt-President
of Council and I apologise to Members
that that was not put, as it should have
been, on the agenda of the first'Meethig
of the Session. We would now proceed to
that election.
Honourable Members, there-have voted
for the Honourable E. A. C. Hughes, '7.
votes; the Honourable R.-E. Baynes,-4
votes; the Honourable J. A. Baynes and
the Honourable E. T. Joshua, vote each.
I therefore declare the lHonourable E.
A. C. Hughes elected and I congratulate
him on the honour he has been given.
Honourable Members, there are no
announcements. Are there any notices
of motions?
Are there any notices of questions?
There are no petitions.
I call upon the Crown Attorney to lay
the Papers.
dent, Honourable Members, I have the
honour to lay the following Papers on the
Council Paper No. 34 of 1955: The
Registrar General's Report for
the year 1953.

Council Paper No. 35 of 1955: The
Prisons Report for the year 1954.
Council Paper No. 40 of 1955: Re-
port on the working of the Gov-
ernment Housing Loans Board
for the year 1954.
The others listed under 'Schedule' on
the Order Paper-Nos. 36-39 of 1955-
these are not strictly Council Papers.
They are the subject of a substantive
motion which will be moved later in
the proceedings. They really should not
have been cited as Council Papers.

MR. PRESIDENT: I call upon the Hon-
ourable Member for North Windward
to ask the questions in his name.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Can this Govern-
ment explain the reason for placing a
proviso in the form of a condition on
Dr. Ram Harry Paul when it was decided
by Ordinance that he was to be regis-
tered as a Medical Practitioner of the
Since it is common knowledge to the
entire community that Dr. Paul is a
seasoned and famous Practitioner and
enjoys the confidence of the Community,
does Government intend to use this
Doctor's services as mere convenience
*ith a certain string attached to his
registration:-"That he be allowed to
practice in the Colony so long as he is
employed with the Government of Saint
Can this Government state a reason
for the refusal of Dr. Harry Paul's request
to take a Canadian Board for. which
arrangements were fully arranged in
MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Members,
replies to questions dealing with the
Medical Department would normally fall
to the Chairman of the Social ServiCes
Committee to reply, but as it deals with
the question of an officer of the Civil
Service purely in his personal capacity
as such, the duty falls on me to answer
the questions.

Honourable Members, ithe condition
that Dr. Ram Harry Paul be allowed to
practice medicine in St. Vincent while
serving as a Government Medical Officer
is contained in the body of the relevant
Ordinance passed by the Legislative
Council on 4th March, 1954. This condi-
tion is in general conformity with the
practice, in other .West Indian Colonies
and with' the advice of the British Medi-
cal Association.
Dr. Paul holds a United States quali-
fication but would not be permitted to
practice in the United States, nor would
he be permitted in any of the Windward
Islands without special legislation being
enacted. Government are unable to agree
that Dr. Paul enjoys the confidence of
the community as there have been peti-
tions regarding the quality of his ser-
vices from the people of the areas which
he serves.
Government does not intend to use
Dr. Paul as a public convenience, but
feels strongly that Dr. Paul owes a
period of conscientious service to the
people of St. Vincent, and it does not
agree that Dr. Paul is entitled to an
amendment of the Ordinance, under
which he accepted his appointment, to
make it possible for him to resign im-
mediately and to set up in private
practice in St. Vincent. Were Dr. Paul
to resign tomorrow, he would owe the
St. Vincent Government some $4,000,
and it is also considered that he owes
a considerable period of service to St.
Vineent as well. Dr. Paul is "at present
allowed, and carries on, private practice
in his own district.
To deal with the second part of the
Dr. Paul applied for 18 weeks' leave
in order to proceed to Canada to sit for
the examination of the Licentiate of
the Medical Council of Canada. This
qualification would not have improved
Dr. Paul's medical knowledge, nor his
services to the people of St. Vincent,
but would have made it more possible
for him to have practiced in other parts
of the Commonwealth.

Dr. Paul is not entitled under Regula-
tions to Vacation Leave until March,
1956, and he would then be entitled to
only 12 weeks. To have granted him 18
weeks' leave at the time he applied
would have meant that two districts
would have been without a Medical
Officer for at least that period.
Government has every sympathy with
Dr. Paul's efforts to improve his position,
but feels that his best course is to con-
centrate on serving the Government and
the people of St. Vincent faithfully
during the period of his appointment.

,MR. PRisIDENT: I call upon the Hon-
ourable Crown Attorney to move the
former motion of which notice, has just
been handed to Honourable Members.
dent, Honourable Members; WHEREAS
by section 8 (1) of the International
Organisation (Immunities and Priv-
ileges) Ordinance (No. 13 of 1954), it is
provided that all Orders in Council made
under the Ordinance shall be laid before
the Legislative Council for approval;
BE IT RESOLVED that this Council ap-
prove the following:
First-The International Organisa-
tions (Immunities and Privileges
of the World( Meteorological Or-
ganisation) Order, 1955.
Secondly-The International Organi-
sations (Immunities and Privi-
leges of the Universal Postal
Union) Order, 1955.
Thirdly-The International Organi-
sations (Immunities and Privi-
leges of the International Tele-
communications Union) Order,
1955, and
Fourthly-The Diplomatic Privi-
leges (International Civil Avia-
tion Organisation) (Amend-
ment) Order, 1955.
These Orders are cited on the Order
Paper as Council Papers 36, 37, 38 and
39 of 1955.

Mr President, Honourable Members,
these" are S.R.O's-Statutory Rules and
Orders passed at the request of the Sec-
retary of State. They are international
orders passed by the request of the Sec-
retary of State in every colony. The
Home Government deals with all foreign
affairs that concern us. These are really
international foreign affairs and we are
not personally ourselves responsible for
the foreign relations, bat the central
Government through the Secretary of
State is responsible, and he has asked
us to pass these agreements as they are
into law, and we have done so. But be-
fore they can become law the have to
be approved by this Honourable Council.
I am therefore moving, Honourable Mem-
bers, that this Council adopt these or-
second the motion.
MR. PRESIDENT: If there,is no opposi-
tion, may these orders be approved?
MR. PRESIDENT: I call upon the Hon-
ourable Colonial Treasurer to move the
motion standing in his name.
like to seek permission to defer this
motion until the next Meeting of the
Council. There are several misprints and
errors which should be corrected.
MR. PRESIDENT: If there is no objec-
tion, Honourable Members, I propose that
we allow the Honourable Treasurer to
withdraw the motion.
MR. PRESIDENT: I call upon the Hon-
ourable Crowh Attorney to move the
motion standing in his name.
Honourable Members, I have the honour
to move the following motion standing
in my name:-
WHEREAS there formerly existed in the
colonies of the British Caribbean a regi-
ment known as the West Indian Regi-
ment; and

WHEREAS this colony has already de-
clared itself in favour of a Federation
of the said Colonies; and
WHEREAS in conformity with the fuller
share of responsibility implicit in such
a Federation it is desirable that the
said colonies should share more actively
in matters of local defence and the main-
tenance of law and order within the
region; and
WHEREAS it has been' proposed that, the
West Indian Regiment be re-establshed.
This Council approves of the re-
establishment of a West Indian
Regiment; and agrees
That the said Regiment be raised
under the authority of an Act of
And that this colony's annual con-
tribution to the maintenance of
the said regiment be not less than
one per cent of the colony's
And that the said Regiment be ad-
ministered by the War Office on
behalf of the Governments of the
British Caribbean.
I am quite sure that Honourable. Mem-
bers are actually more conversant with
this matter than I am, because it has
been dealt with and considered in more
than one Council. It has actually, I
believe, been considered in Finance Com-
mittee, a standing Committee of this
Honourable House.
It is generally accepted that the pri-
mary responsibility for internal security
throughout the Commonwealth lies with
the Dominion and Colonial Governments.
The idea of the British West Indian Regi-
ment is not so much to declare war or
to defend ourselves if war is declared,
because not even by that means shall we
be able to defend ourselves. It is merely
fpr internal security and -of course, if
I may be facetious for a moment, if
Carriacou for instance, should rivade
St. Vincent, St. Vincent would be Table
to defend itself-not,'that there is any
expectation of such-a thing'at all.

It would be an intolerable position if
only a Federation-Federal Government
-the bodies of the Federal Units could
not defend themselves in even a minor
capacity, but would have to be crying
out abroad for help.
Another thing in favour of a West
India:. Regiment is that.it will be made
up of our own people-our own officers
eventually, our own men. It will be.an
opening for employment, for careers,
among the youth of St. Vincent, St.
Lucia, Grenada, Trinidad, Dominica and
all, the other colonies. The other Wind-
ward Island colonies-St. Lucia, Domin-
ica and Grenada have already passed this
and they have already agreed to it in
Council. They have already agreed that
at least one per cent of the revenue be
allocated to the formation and support
of the 'West Indian Regiment. We, I
presume to say, cannot do less than to
do the same and follow in their foot-
It would not be a very nice- thing al-
ways to remind ourselves that we are
grant aided. The Secretary of State has
thrown out a strong suggestion, if not
more than a suggestion to all the col-
onies in the British West Indies that this
Regiment be formed, and in his despatch,
if I may read-paragraph 3-he says
"The basic rule of the Regiment will be
local defence and internal security with-
.in the Caribbean area...... This definition
is ruled to govern the regiment's organi-
sation, training and equipment. In the
event of a major war the use of the regi-
ment outside of the Caribbean area would
not be excluded, subject to concurrence
at the time of the Governments of the
participating territories." So we will
have a say altogether in the colonies.
We will have a say in how the West
.Indian Regiment would be used, and it
would not be used arbitrarily without
our consent or without our having some
say in the matter.
The Regiment will be. a local force
and not an integral part of the British
Army. That is to say, its status would be
the same as the Royal West African

Frontier Force and so on, which are
formulated therein for their own protec-
It is the intention that the whole cost
o: the Regiment both capital and re-
current, should be regarded as the re-
sponsibility of the participating Colonial
Governments. In so far as the territories
a::e unable to bear the full cost in any
one year, the 'short fall would be made
good by Her Majesty's Government
through the Colonial Services Vote,
which is the recognized channel for the
provision of financial assistance to Col-
onial Governments. That is to say, if
for our total revenue we cannot give
sufficient support, Her Majesty's Gov-
ernment will back us with the rest-
will supply the remainder that is lacking.
I do not think, Honourable Members,
that there leaves much more to be said
on this matter. If by chance Honourable
Members should think that this will
be a force for oppression of any sort, I
think Honourable Members should think
of it more.
This will be a force stationed in the
West Indies, called upon when necessary,
to help in the keeping of law and order,
when necessary. As it stands, whenever
a body of armed forces is necessary we
send to Jamaica or to England for En-
glish regiments. That has always been a
source of discontent in almost every
colony, whether that ,colony is immed-
iately concerned or not. In this case
we have our own people here.
Honourable Members, I ask you to
support this motion.
second the motion.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. President,
Honourable Members of this Honourable
House. I heard the mover of this motion
to say-telling us in short-that this
motion should .be passed without even
giving it a strict -thought because the
other islands have passed it. I doubt
not that the motion would be passed. I
doubt not. It has to be passed. I doubt
not that Her Majesty's Government in

the United Kingdom wills this motion
to be passed, but, in the words of the
mover of the motion himself for example
-he spoke about our being grant-aided
and that Her Majesty's Government
wants to implement a West Indian Regi-
ment. Of course any nation in the
making must have its own defence. Any
nation in the making must not control
finance but must have its own troops.
Perpetual Treasury control means sub-
ordination ad infinitum when expenses
of the kind-1 per cent of the revenue
to support an army for defence-but
the mover of the motion made it quite
clear that such defence against the
atomic bomb is useless. He actually
told us if Carriacou invades St. Vincent
well then, it is necessary to have your
own people to see about you.
The question is gentlemen, if we could
start to think in terms of a unified body
I would say, for the glory of a nation in
the making is to have an army-I
woulc say by all means take five per
cent of the revenue to form a West
Indian Regiment, because it is our own
people that are'getting it. I would also
say give ten per cent because if that is
the way Britain means to assist these
poverty-stricken islands with the econo-
mic pressure that is upon them-well,
it is time we realise that this is a very
serious matter for West Indians to think
of, being part of the Colonial Empire.
This is a very serious matter when we
see in our own' colony that our local
forces had to be increased in number
so as to keep order. It is just because
we are unprepared to do the right thing.
While we look after increasing local
forces etc., we forget to look after the
social, educational and other aspects of
the country and the people under a just
and merciful Government of. the British
Empire. I say this not for talk sake.
The motion will be passed because we
want an army, but it is right to show
out the aspects of this thing. If as I
see no Hansards can ever be seen for this
local parliament-so we do not know
what they do in the Colonial Office in
Lonodn-but what I do know is, that if

my speech today should be written- on
everlasting bronze I would say this, that
if you are to perfect an army for law
and order-internal law and order-
well and good. The course of events
have shown us the painful job of regi-
ments of the British Crown. The painful
job, I say, they had to undergo to come
down here to keep order. Many of the
men were astonished. They were
amazed beyond measure, but duty called
and they had to obey. Well it would be
easier to say it is not me it is your own
people. It is not I. We are not sending
our marines and our powerful and well-
trained regiments any longer. But they
can be directed-not from the Federal
Parliament-but still from the Colonial
Office because you would still be Colon-
ials. Because the sword of Damocles
will be forever dangling over our heads
-you are Treasury controlled. No men-
tion is made-not a scintilla of mention
is made and still we are harping Federa-
tion, Federation-Nationhood, Nation-
hood-and no mention is made to man-
fully right our financial disabilities so
we can stand on our feet as a nation.
Gentlemen, this is not opposing an
inevitable motion. St. Vincent will never
be able to stand up with the units who
have agreed to this thing. That is why
when a Bill is foist upon us for the first
time I always in opposition, raise my
voice in this House-"be careful how
you deal with that Bill". But since such
a motion is inevitable we can, notwith-
standing, show out the aspects of the
thing, because I have seen written in
another place-not in the motion-that
that 1 per cent of the revenue- for
Trinidad 1 per cent would be about
The question of defence is not whether
Grenada would attack St. Vincent be-
cause they will be units of one State,
and of course, we have learnt enough in
British constitution to respect State.
We have not had that in the United
States Federation. You would remember
hearing about the Civil War-Slavery-
when the South refused to acknowledge
that they should do away with negro

slavery. But in Canada-the Canadian
Federation we heard of no revolts in
those States, no doubt because of so
many years in British constitution and
British methods.
Although we speak about West Indian
Federation, we see rigid control of the
movement of the people-even members
of one local Parliament to another-al-
though we have better organised security
services in every one of these units, they
still hold you up. But it appears to me
to be something more than malice when
that is done. Because we aim at one
thing and that should be our goal-not
insularity-but unity of purpose in a
West Indian Federation.
I remember sitting in the British Par-
liament sometime in 1953, in December.
I heard back-benchers in the House of
Commons asking the Colonial Secretary,
then Oliver Lyttleton-now Lord Lyttle-
ton, whether they were not creating for
themselves another hot spot in the Col-
onial Empire when certain things were
done in certain parts of the Empire. He
replied "Oh no, I have sufficient troups
on the spot". Therefore then are we
going to be governed ad infinitum by
troups instead of law and mercy? Those
were the words. When the Parliament
harassed him he said we have sufficient
I had no intention to debate but only
to show out certain aspects that the
Colonial Office would see that we are
not altogether asleep. We are not non-
entities. We are not automatons. That
we too can see and give our opinions
in the scheme,of things if we are to be
included in a \nation any time 'at all,
or pass from the failing of Britain to
put us on our feet before attempting
to bring us together in any scheme of
HON. J. A. BAYNES: Mr. President,
Honourable Gentlemen, I merely would
like to air my views on a few points that
I must express. I have always wished
that the day would dawn when Federa-
tion would be a reality, but I see now
that with all the things that go along

with Federation, I wonder if the econo-
mic burdencwould be able to be borne
by an island such as St. Vincent that is
already grant-aided.
In making provision for a West Indian
Regiment, I believe that even the gesture
is a nice one, but what we really want
is protection from what? And I do not
believe that the support of a Regiment
from England-more than that every
army marches on its stomach, and if
we are to have a Regiment in the West
Indies it means there would be less food
even for those that are already hungry.
A Regiment in the West Indies per-
haps is a necessary thing to go along with
Federation, but to me these are national
requirements and securities that I won-
der if our economics would, be able to
carry. We are already grant-aided and it
seems to me that when all these little
necessities are taken away. from our
limited source of revenue the conditions
of Federation would be more disastrous
than they are even now.
HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. President,
Honourable Members, as a Member of
the Legislative Council is automatically
a Member of Finance Committee, I did
not exliect this motion to be so debated
or at least twisted. We sat down in
Finance Committee and actually agreed
-last year I think it was.
In my humble opinion, I am not saying
the Honourable Gentlemen did not listen
attentively-but there are certain things
that go with nationhood. There are cer-
tain basic things that must take place,
if we in truth and in fact are working
towards a Federation and to become
a West Indian nation. We had our Uni-
versity put down in the first instance
Our currency was unified and it shows
that right now we must have our local
University-Currency-Customs Union
-it is one of these things that I feel go
hand in hand and as the Crown Attorney
has explained to us although we are
grant-aided, we would then get that
extra money which we should fight for

to meet our Regiment's needs. It is no-
use sitting here and saying we cannot
agree because you cannot escape it.,
There is nothing I would like to do more,
no sacrifice that we could make that
would be too great to become a nation.
Remember you can only learn to swim
if you get into the water, and to becon e
a nation you will have to go through
all these things regardless of the sacri-
fices you have to make. If we do not
start we will always be afraid of it,
because we learn by doing, and I agree
the only point that I would. put to it is
to see that things are done equally,
that some of our boys from here get
into it and that the bigger islands do
not take all the places. So that it would
be a source of employment-it would be
a source of training and another big
point is that it would be better that we
have our own people who ,understand
our West Indian way of life to deal with
us than some one to whom it is strange
and who would have to take a little
time before they could really understand
Therefore, Gentlemen, I support this
motion wholeheartedly.
HON. R. E. BIYNES: Mr. President,
Honourable Me abers: The acceptant e
of this motion for a West Indian Regi-
ment should be a foregone conclusion,
but there are still a few points which I
would like the mover of this motion to
clear up.
First of all he said that we require a
West Indian Reg iment. He did not quali-
fy that by saying a Regiment for peace-
ful purposes or a Regiment for war,
because there could be armies for wars
and armies for the prevention of wars.
I believe when the time comes he should
clear this up because according to his-
tory, no country that has ever pursued
a course of war has ever done so succe i-
fully and survived. We have the Roman
Empire, we have Carthage, we have
Denmark, we have Norway, we have the'
Dutch-and as time goes by we will see
that some of the ruling powers today
would fade out. So these are some of
the points which I think we would have

to clarify if we say we want a West
Indian Regiment for our people.
The next point is, I was very glad
when the Crown Attorney or the mover
of the motion made the point in connec-
tion with the Secretary of State for the
Colonies who was quite prepared to give
us assistance td form the Regiment.
Now, I hope that when he said that he
did not mean that they would give us
assistance for the formation of a Regi-
aent over assistance for economic de-
velopment. I hope, really, that in volun-
tarily rendering that assistance to us
they would think in terms of, also at
the same time, giving us assistance in
like manner and as readily for economic
Going back to the question of wars-
most of you who really do not follow
statistical information would be surprised
to know that wars never get us any place.
In the last World War-according to the
record of the cost of that war, one con-
scientious objection-put it this way-
that if they had taken that same money
and divided it equally between every
individual in the world each of them
would have got $55,000. Yet we fought the
war and we are not better off, and that
is another crowning point for a Regiment
for peaceful purposes rather than a
Regiment for War.
HON. G. H. CHARLES: Mr. Chairman,
Honourable Members: Now, what 1
really would like to say is according to
one of the foregoing speakers, in my hum-
ble opinion, I think somehow it is not
the best principle that at this early
stage they should have told us to get
such a Regiment. In fact the first thing
that I think they should have done was
to give us some more money and .et us
make the country more progressive along
the lines of factories and industries-
economy. We all know we are already
grant-aided and this would naturally be
another burden, even though they say
they will help. In my humble opinion
I think it is too soon.
As far as the question of war or peace
is concerned I would say this, that there

is only one peaceful army that I know
of and that is the Salvation Army. That
is the only one peaceful army that we all
know, so the last speaker should not
have bothered to ask that question.
MR. PRESIDENT: If no other Honour-
able Member wishes to speak on this mo-
tion, does the Honourable Mover wish
to avail himself of his right, to reply?
there have been quite a few misunder-
standings. The Honourable Member for
North Windward stressed the point of
being Treasury controlled, and I do not
know, but they seem a bit ashamed
that we are Treasury controlled yet.
But, Honourable Members, it is not the
tault of the Imperial Government that
we are Treasury controlled. Is it not our
own fault or at the very least our own
misfortune? How can the Imperial Gov-
ernment be blamed because we cannot
support ourselves? Lenghty Ordinances
and so on being passed............
HoN. R. E. BAYNES: On a point of
order, Mr. President. I think we do not
control currency here, and that is a
point which the Crown Attorney should
not bring up. We do not control our
MR. PRESIDENT: Since that cannot be
a point of order, you are allowed to con-
dent, to continue with what I was say-
ing. Ordinances are passed. Why? To
keep order. Without order we would
have no progress. We would have chaos.
We would go backwards. It is another
means of enforcing the law. If there
are no means for enforcing order what
will we have, how'can we go on?
Another speaker said that a Regiment
in the West Indies will mean less food.
They will be eating up the food that we
plant. Well, good Heavens! They are
eating it anyway. They are eating it.
They are here-here with us. They
always will be with us. They are eating
it and who else is eating it-do not for-
get Imperial people are eating it too,
and they will not be here to eat it.
Therefore it means more food for us-

I think this point should be cleared up,
it was seriously asked or hinted-whether
or not assistance to form and support
the Regiment would be at the expense
of assistance being given to us now. No,
certainly not. It will have no effect
whatsoever upon the assistance being
given whether increases or decreases. It
will be something outside what we
actually need now to support ourselves.
Something entirely outside of that.
That is about all I think needs answer-
ing from the comments I have heard
around the Table today, Mr. President,
MR. PRESIDENT: Honourable Members,
there is a motion before the House,
Those in favour?
The motion is carried unanimously,
I call upon the Member for North
Windward to move the first motion
standing in his name.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr President,
Honourable Members: WHEREAS Ram
Harry Paul, Bachelor of Science and
Doctor of Medicine of the University of
Howard was by Ordinance No. 11 of 1954
duly registered to practice medicine or
surgery in this colony;
AND WHEREAS it is common knowledge
that Dr. Ram Harry Paul has performed
his practice with satisfaction to the
AND WHEREAS Ordinance No. 11 of 1954
more particularly called RAM HARRY
PAUL ORDINANCE, now needs am9nd-
ment so as to remove therefrom certain
strings which might have been inadver-
tently placed in the Ordinance;
BE IT RESOLVED that this Ordinance
No. 11 of 1954 be amended in its Second
preamble to read:-
"And whereas it is expedient that
the said Ram Harry Paul be regis-
tered under the. said Ordinance for
the purpose of practising medicine
or surgery in the Colony".
Honourable President, Honourable
Members, I am satisfied that I am made
this way. I believe in fair-play, reason

and right, and what I believe is a right
approach, if I am to suffer martyrdom,
I would be satisfied to know I have a
clear conscience.
Over a year ago a Bill was introduced
in this Council, and that Bill was an
Ordinance assented to by the Governor
of the Windward Islands-an Ordinance
for the registration of Dr. Paul. It was
at the time when I was a Member of the
Executive Council, and of course at
that time, having no right, to oppose
the registration of a doctor badly need-
ed in the colony, I ask certain questions
within my right because I think this
Ordinance was the first of its kind.
But those who thought it was unneces-
sary then to ask such things know very
well that not everything which comes
from the mouths of some men comes
from their hearts, especially the elected
members. And so in my eagerness, in
my honesty, in my sincerity of purpose
to better this country, I asked 'those
questions. It is now over a year.
I moved a motion here because I knew
what answers were coming to me. I ex-
pect we should all have a conscience as
men, but innocent treachery, perhaps,
makes our country appear blighted by
Gentlemen, a country cannot be sus-
tained on a little clique of friends-a
combination of friends. It has to be
sustained on principle and good will
to all so that strangers within our gates
may be given cherished opinions that
there is justice here. L am a traveller
myself. I have travelled very far. I am
a happy man to know that I know cen-
tral Europe, if I know no where else in
my life. If after knowing there I had
died three months after, I would have
thanked God that I knew that part of
the Earth, and of course, being a travel-
ler, I perforce if I have the right vision
-I should like strangers within my gates
to be treated as human beings. And
when I speak I speak mainly of people
who come here to work and toil among
A year ago or so when we were in
dire need of doctors we were glad enough
to appoint Dr. Paul, but you made sure

to appoint nim with a certain string
attached. He was appointed to an area
that should in fact carry two doctors.
So far Ram Harry Paul has been doing
and .is still doing a very good job. So
good, in fact, that people from all parts
of this island go to him for help.-
Now, we have to read between the
lines when certain answers are made
here to questions asked. It seems to me
that what this Government is attemp-
ting to say between the lines of these
answers is that Ram Harry Paul is not
much good if good at all, as a doctor,
and that he should be more than glad
and grateful to this Government that
he was at all appointed. Mark you we
were in dire need here-dire need for
doctors, and more than that all honest
minded men sitting around this Table
will admit that it is obvious that Paul
is a good doctor as can be seen by the
numbers that hire cars from Kingstown
even, to go to him.
Gentlemen, we all know that years
ago before the World War, we were led
to believe in these parts that American
doctors or men with degrees taken in
the United States could not come up to
the standard of those with degrees taken
at Universities in Europe. Today we
know better than that here. The men
who at present still try to spread that
impression in this country do so because
of the prejudices and jealousies they
harbour here.
According to the proviso of the par-
ticular Ordinance in question, was it
a thought that once we control Dr. Paul
indefinitely that he will not have the
privileges of our doctors with English
certificates but that you could use his
services-do whatever you liked. Let us
think of this Ordinance-it is either that
or it was intended to have him under
a period of probation. But recent events
show that his period of probation will
always be an indefinite period in this
We can do what we like, we have regis-
tered Paul under a special Ordinance mnd
if he can practise while working for .the
Government of St. Vincent he can p:ac-
tise after he has worked for the Govern-

ment of St. Vincent. You will tell me
that you get a doctor, after conditions
like these, use him to suit your purposes
and shortly after you feel-friends feel-
cliques feel that this man stands in some-
body's way? You may say that a term
has been given to Dr. Paul, but it is not
reasonable, gentlemen, that you should
use the services of a man like that. We
cannot have Dr. Paul to practise all
over the country because the Govern-
ment is particular to prevent that. The
special reasons for that only particular
doctors know. But what is right, gentle-
men, is really right. Let us not allow
people to continue to feel that we are
the most backward, people in the world,
Too often, men who come to our country
for any length of time leave with the
impression that something is technically
wrong-perpetually wrong with Vincen-
tians, because after all when we talk
here about improved status-when we
talk here about advanced constitutions
those advanced constitutions v.-uld be
left solely on the head of every Vincen-
tian if he must march on with those
who have got somewhere. Therefore
the power is in the hands of this Council
to do justice and right irrespective of
one or the other prejudice, no matter
how many or where they exist, to Dr.
The question is that if things went
well, gentlemen, if things went well all
would be fine for those concerned, but-
when things did not go well, then we
would have to seek the cause for those
things. Mark you, I make it quite clear
that this Ordinance is misconstructed
:;y some. That'strangers are not wanted
in St. Vincent is a most unfair thing to
say while I believe that St. Vincent is
a favourite summer resort for all stran-
gers-working in services or coming to
our shores for holidays. But it appears
-people would appear to think that peo-
ple are against strangers here in St.-
Vincent when we act in this way.
That first Section there of that Ordin-
ance which was made the 13th of May,
1954, does not imply that Paul is not
a doctor. It is only because his M.D or

B.Sc. or whatever was not taken in the
U.K. That is why. If he had degrees
that he got from Edinburgh then it
would not be necessary, but now it is
necessary that a special Ordinance be
made. "And whereas It is expedient that
the said Ram Harry Paul be registered
under the said Ordinance for the pur-
pose of practicing medicine or surgery
in the colony during such time as he
may hold an appointment...."......... This
is the part-this is the part that I am
concerned with. A man one time being
registered here is able only to do his
line cf work while he is in your employ.
If provision were made so that a pro-
bationary period after registration were
allowed it would be a different thing,
but this Ordinance means that this man
can practise here so long as he is work-
ing with Government. So even if he
works here for a period of five years-
you are a doctor for that five years
period,- but after that five years you
cannot practise here or you are liable
to be put m jail if you try to do that.
It is absolutely absurd. So if he for
some reason decides to retire from Gov-
ernment service and open an office of
his own here you will tell him, well, you
will now cease to be a doctor. That is
what this thing means.
Gentlemen, I feel that a Government
-any decent, moral Government should
try to do better than this-any Govern-
ment, not only the St. Vincent Govern-
ment but any self-respecting Govern-
ment at all, and those of us who
assemble here for pecuniary or other
purposes know it. It is quite clear here
that it was enacted by the Legislative
Council, therefore we alone in this
House should deal with this now and
find out whether the amendment on
this Ordinance tends to do harm to any-
one here-tends to do harm to the other
practitioners-tends to do harm to any-
one at all, and right the wrong that is
being done.
Gentlemen that is the motion.
HON. J. A. BAYNES: Mr. President,
Honourable Gentlemen, I rise to support
the motion which, in my estimation,

should have the support of the House. I
have listened to the questions and I have
before me the answers to the questions
asked, and while I think that this out-
line given here should satisfy Members
around this Table-in making a state-
ment there are three things that we
must get from that statement and one
is-what is behind all this?
I heard the mover of the motion to
say that this is a Ram Harry Paul Or-
dinance and the first of its kind, but
I do not think, so. I think there was
another before-a Dr. Martin. That Dr.
Martin in my estimation, perhaps was
not a qualified doctor at all, but he
was permitted to practise here and I feel
that when Dr. Martin was allowed to
practise here, I think he .was registered
in like manner as Harry Paul was reg-
istered a year ago. But there is one thing
which none of us here can'deny and
that is-any man like Dr. Martin com-
ing from far afield, from England or
the United States did not have to have
medical experience. He could have come
in here and say I am a doctor, when
there was a demand, and get a job, and
he would have been allowed to practise
as long as the demand was on.
Well it is quite true to say that Gov-
ernment, in the time When they regis-
tered Dr. Martin knew that Dr. Martin
was not a qualified practitioner and
they actually permitted Dr. Martin to
practise. In Ram Harry Paul's case it
is an entirely different thing. You have
stated here in your reply that Ram Harry
Paul holds an American qualification.
Well, we all know that in a man's scram-
ble for progress Ram Harry Paul might
not have had the finances to go to a
University in England and his going
afield in search of a livelihood gave him
an opportunity to qualify in the United
States. Perhaps if he had had the money
he might have gone to England like any
other student who has qualified in En-
gland as a Medical practitioner.
Be that as it may, the standard of
Medical practitioners today in England
is not as high as it is in the United

States. We were all led to believe in
the past that the medical practitioner
from England was a genius. But let
us remember this, that it is only within
recent years that when a fellow got
through his medical finals he had to go
in and do three years internment. In
the past he came straight out of school
to the West Indies to butcher or kill
or whatever he could do. He came to
these parts to get his experience here
with us. Today the British Medical As-
sociation has seen that she happens to
be miles behind every other nation and
as a consequence they have to do some-
Saying that Ram Harry Paul will not
be permitted to practise in the States-
I believe those of us who have been to
the States know that when you acquire
a Medical certificate in the States you
have to pass a State Board Examination
to be able to practise in any State. That
does not permit you to practise. And
until you pass that State Board Exam,
whether in Barbering, Dentistry or Medi-
cine you will not be permitted to prac-
tise in any of the States at all. Hence
those are matters which I merely make
an effort to clear up, because when things
are put down there like that perhaps
many of us around this Table may not
have any idea of these things as they
I was in St. Lucia six weeks ago and
went in to listen to a Meeting of the
Legislature there where there is a simi-
lar situation. There is a German doctor
there that they had to pass an Ordinance
similar to this -one to permit him to
practise in St. Lucia, and the same ques-
tion that was brought in here by the
mover was the same question argued by
many of the Members there in St. Lucia
-that is, Government have given per-
mission for a man to practise and as
long as he works with Government, it
is all right. But he serves the same
people in public as he would in private
practise, and you allow him to serve
them in public as long as he is using
your time. You say well, I am paying
you so you can serve them.

.It is true that Government has given
the people of these colonies a status
below that of the civilised world. It is
all right that a doctor can serve you
when Government allows him, but when
Government says no you are not allowed
to practise, we have terminated your
services hence you must go, you cannot
do private practise here, then the average
man who requires medical attention has
no opportunity to choose. That is all I
have seen and that is as clear to me as
light. It means that when a man is per-
mitted by an Ordinance such as this to
practise in St. Vincent, Government de-
cides that this chap can practise. When
that man is outside of the employment of
Governor ent he would not be allowed to
practise though he would be catering to
the same people with whom he has built
up a clie atele. It tells me that something
is wrong and with regard to the many
reports made against Dr. Paul, those can
pass casually cn this ground, that that
is a job for the S.M.O. to see that every
doctor gives service in his area. When
such a t] ing is brought up it shows either
that th< Senior Medical Officer is not
doing h s job or that the doctors are
allowed ;o do as they like until a matter
such as ;his is brought to this House.
I believe that when a man holds a job
in an ex -cutive position, his job is to see
that the men under him do their work
to his satisfaction and to the limit of the
scope of their employment. But that
does not seem to be so here, therefore
these reports, as I say, if he is hot doing
his work well in his district then he
should I e brought to justice and if he
fails to comply with the.actual require-
ments of his higher, then throw him out.
That, as I see it is a question for the
Chief Medical Officer. That is not a ques-
tion to string here on an outline, because
of the fact that somebody has a job for
that type of supervision.
I feel that in making these registra-
tions, it has been too visible now-in
St. Vincent we have certain laws and
those laws are used just as you would
use tools-when they suit you you bring
them out. When they do not suit you
you leave them aside. I do not believe

that law and order is built on that Law
is right reason and when you have to
do justice it should be applied in a way
that it should satisfy everybody that this
man did not give us satisfaction and as
a consequence he is dealt with according
to the law. But that is not the case
If Ram Harry Paul is no good, throw
him out. When we had a shortage of
doctors here, I believe that this island
would have employed anybody-anybody
who came and made a nice bid. Today
this motion seeks to register Ram Harry
Paul along with the Medical Practi-
tioners that might fall under the same
Ordinance any time in the future on a
basis that since we give him,-by regis-
tration, the right to practise in Govern-
ment's employ he should be permitted
to practise privately if he has served a
probationary period for which he was
brought here.
As years go by people are becoming
more enlightened especially along this
line, because I am aware that in all
these British Colonies, if the people
were given a chance to make a living we
would hardly have any need for doctors.
We have sunshine here and everything
it takes to make people healthy, but
mal-nutrition is having effect on our
people because of unemployment and
as a consequence they need more medi-
cal care than the people in other parts
of the world where employment is
fourd. Because of that I feel that every
measure should be taken to register this
doctor. As long as you satisfy Govern-
ment more or less that you have been-
that you have already acquired the ne-
cess ry diploma to practise medicine,
their as long as you have stepped in
here to fill a position in any district
of this Country you should'be permitted
to practise freely, privately or publicly
whe:2 you so desire.
HON. R. E. BAYNES: Mr. President,
Hon durable Members: Now, with regard
to this motion here, I would like to take
first of all, the individual out of the
pict-ire. As an individual, I think Dr.
Harry Paul might be a very nice man,

but in this particular motion a big prin-
ciple is involved and we have to first
of all weigh the benefits to be derived
from the passing of this motion between
Dr. Ram Harry Paul and the people
who are involved on the other side. I
sat here in this Chamber and heard
quite a number of the Members of Coun-
cil remark that what we want here is a
Practitioner or Practitioners who would
be paid to serve the needs of the people
and cut out part of the private pract.ce.
Let us get to the other side of the
picture--it is my conviction always that
n- one man who is employed in a job
can act in another job in addition to his
actual employment and do the jobs satis-
factorily. Because if he can do it satis-
factorily-I am saying this that we are
paying him for only part time employ
In this particular case Dr. Ram Harry
Paul is employed in two districts-his
district and another district in which
there is no medical practitioner. Now,
in those two districts no one man really
can do those districts satisfactorily and
carry cn a very wide practise without
doing danger to those people of that
particular district. It is from those same
districts that we have quite a lot of
complaints, because the people there
are not properly serviced. If we take it
from that standpoint we would see that
something is wrong some place.
Now, as far as I have gathered here-
I say there is a principle involved.
When Dr. Paul was employed in this
Colony, he was employed under certain
conditions, and I personally feel that
if Dr. Paul for a period of years served
this country very well, this same Gov-
ernment will- have no objection to
making: a condition suitable to him
where, after a period of time, he might
retire and do private practise. But before
one year shall have elapsed you are tell-
ing me now, after employing a man
under those conditions that you must
amend the Ordinance to give him the
chance to retire and set up private
practice. I could not see that condition

at all. It is not a question of the man,.
but it is a question of the principle
Now, let us not fool ourselves, in the
United States like the British countries
-no Doctor qualified in the United
States can practise in the United King-
dom except certain conditions are over-
come and vice versa, no doctor from the
United Kingdom can practise in the
United States except certain conditions
are overcome. For that particular
reason for Dr. Paul to practise here he
had to do so under special conditions.
But before Dr. Paul came to St. Vincent
he was employed in Trinidad under the
same conditions and when his employ-
ment was terminated the Ordinance came
to an end. I understand also that Dr.
7aul was not permitted to practise even
n those countries. Now, those are the
In St. Vincent now-you are telling me
now that St. Vincent must be a scape
goat just as a fellow comes in, after
one year you will change this Ordinance
to say well so so so, and tell me that
the Ordinance is wrong when in all the
other countries including his own coun-
try the same condition was not done?
Let us face facts, gentlemen, as I
said from the beginning-you cannot
overlook the fact that in order for Dr.
Harry Paul to carry out his private prac-
tise as he has been carrying it out much
to th3 satisfaction of quite a number of
people in the. cther districts, that the
district in which he is employed wou'd
suffer. And perhaps most of these
gentlemen do nrt understand that when
a doctor is employed in one district and
acts in another he gets his full salary
in that district and half of the salary
in the other district. So to do that
something is lacking some place. We
have a principle involved.
The question of practising in Kings-
town-it is a condition of the Medical
Board-there was, some time ago, when
you had Dr. Kulesza and all those Swiss
doctors practising right in Kingstown
here out of their districts-the other

Medical Practitioners thought it unfair
and so they came to a condition that no
doctor in any one district should come
to the Kingstown district and practise.
That is something which has been agreed
between the Medical Practitioners them-
selves. They have their own regulations
and things of this kind. It does not con-
cern us, and if they have agreed to those
conditions I do not see why they should
waive those conditions, on a question
of principle.
SNow, gentlemen, I do not think I
really have to make very many more
points because as I say, a big principle
is involved and we have to think first
cf all in terms of the people Dr. Paul
: is brought here to serve, whether those
pI.p'e are getting the service or whether
the peopic he is serving on a private
basis is given prior consideration. Now,
I say the people he has been employed
to serve according to the conditions of
his contract should come first, and if
Dr. Ram Harry Paul does not elect to
serve those people I cannot say how you
can say to amend the Ordinance to
allow him to carry out private practise
because he is popular. He will only be
popular on one side and unpopular on
tL, other.
The question of other conditions I feel
are purely administrative and I feel that
w':e-o administrative matters are con-
cemncJ: we leave out the political side.
HON. E. A. C. HUGHES: Mr. President,
Honourable Members, like the last speak-
er I would have wished that this particu-
lar motion had dealt with a principle
and not with a personality. I would have
wished a motion to have been brought
seeking an amendment of the Medical
Registration Ordinance to permit all peo-
ple possessing the same qualifications as
Dr. Paul to be registered in this Colony
without further ado, rather than to have
a motion seeking that an individual
with those qualifications should now be
registered, but other individuals with
exactly the same qualifications should
not be.
Gentlemen, our memories riust be
rather short. It is about a year and a
half ago that I got up from my seat in

this very Chamber and had to make a
strong plea in order to seek the passage
of this same Ram Harry Paul Ordinance,
against some fairly' substantial opposi-
tion. Now that very Bill which we had
to drive through this House has become
something awful that we have passed-
something terrible. Of course, I am not
surprised, because it is not the first time
that the Honourable Mover has tried to
play fast arfd loose with the Medical
Registration Ordinance.
We have had more than one instance
where unqualified persons have sought
to be registered as doctors, but this is
not one of those cases. This is a case
where I think the Honourable Mover is
under a misapprehension-under a terri-
ble misapprehension of the' reason for
this insertion of the proviso in this par-
ticular Ordinance, as it is done in all
Ordinances. It is a simple reason. The
reason is not as he seems to think, that
he should serve a period of probation
and that you should tryphim out and see
whether he is good or bad as a doctor.
The reason-is not that at all. The reason
is that St. Vincent-the people of St.
Vincent are short of Medical aid. They
were short of medical aid at that time
and they are short of medical aid now.
In those circumstances the Government
was prepared to make a concession-
a concession to a man who was not en-
titled to practise in the country where
he obtained his-qualification, who was
not entitled to practise and is still not
entitled to practise in the country of his
birth, but, needs must when the devil
drives and this Government was pre-
pared to make a concession to this man
in order to meet the need of the people
for medical aid and medical attention.
For that reason the proviso was put in
that while you serve this Government
and therefore as an employee of this
Government make medical attention
available to the people in the various
districts under the laws of this Colony,
then and only then will you be entitled
to practise in this Colony.
The gentleman to whom we refer at
present is in the districts from Pembroke
to Chateaubelair, I believe-more or less

the entire Leeward coast. We are told
that he has been prevented from prac-
tising in Kingstown. Now, gentle men,
as the last speaker has said, if any in-
dividual is going to serve the medical
needs of the people from Pembroke to.
Chateaubelair and at the same time
carry on a private practise in Kingstown,
someone is going to suffer. Who is going
to suffer, the poor people at Pembroke-
Barrouallie-Chateaubelair, or the peo-
ple in Kingstown who can afford to pay
fees? I ask you, which one will suffer?
Would not the same people suffer for
whom we brought this gentleman here
to practise-will those not be the ones?
The ones who go to the clinic every
Tuesday and Friday to have their leg
dressed or to have their eyes attended
to without being called upon to pay?
At that time as I say, when the Bill
was passed, there was opposition, but it
was passed on the grounds that the poor
people-the people who could not afford
to obtain medical aid, because even
though there was a shortage of doctors
-let us face it-those who can pay can
get medical attention. The ones who
can't are the ones who cannot afford to
pay. And this Bill was passed to enable
Dr. Paul to give service to those who
could not afford to pay.
We are told all about ingratitude.
Where, may I ask, lies the ingratitude?
Is the ingratitude on the part of this
Government or is the ingratitude on the
part of the individual who sought a con-
cession and obtained a concession, and
came to this Colony knowing exactly
what was the concession he had obtain-
ed, knowing exactly under what terms
and conditions he was going to be allow-
ed to be registered in this Colony. Know-
ing all that he accepts a position, he ac-
cepts this concession, he accepts fairly'
substantial loans from the Treasury of
this Colony-the amount of which has
rather surprised me this morning- and
after all that we are told, but you are an
ungrateful lot of men, you will not
change this Ordinance in order to permit
this man to abandon the people at
Chateaubelair and Barrouallie and come
into Kingstown and set up a nice little

office where he can charge nice fees-you
are most ungrateful. Well, if that is not
distorted and back-to-front thinking I
have never heard of it.
The Honourable Mover made a most
unfortunate reference, if I may say so,
to the fact that St. Vincent is notably
opposed to strangers. A most unfor-
tunate reference when we are talking in
terms of medical aid to the people............
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. President, I
did not say so. I was referring to myself,
not St. Vincent.
HON. E. A. C. HUGHES: I do not know
if the Honourable Mover means that he
is opposed to strangers. I understood
him, and I made a note of it at the time
-that people appear to think that St.
Vincent was against strangers. But if
we look around for the past t3n years
and up to the present time at the num-
ber of strangers who have laboured in
these particular fields-and when we
talk about strangers in this context I
I assume the Honourable Member not to
be referring to aliens but to be referring
in our own insular manner to strangers
from Within the British Caribbean, be-
cause Dr. Paul comes from British
Guiana, and most of the doctors who
have served us in the past ye )rs have
been strangers, when viewed from that
aspect: So far as I can remember there
have been only three native born Vincen-
tians practising in this Colony for the
last ten years. So when any attempt is
made to say that Dr* Paul being a
stranger-a Guianese-therefore he is
being discriminated against by these
various cliques and friends and so forth
-these references have passed complete-
ly over my head. I do not know what
cliques and friends he refers- to. I am
certainly not a member of any one, but I
do know this, that we passed an Ordi-
nance in March of last year with a pro-
viso in order to protect the people and in
order to see that the people who were
short of medical aid would continue to
get medical aid. If this House wishes it
may change that proviso and enable that
particular doctor or any doctor to aban-
don the districts or come into Kings-

town and all open offices where every-
body can go and receive attention, pro-
vided that the notes are in their pockets
to pay for that attention. If this
House wishes it may do that with its
eyes open. I will not be a party to it
and I will oppose this motion as long
as I sit here.
This is no question of probation. It
is not a question where a man without
any qualification at all was taken and
you said well you go down to the hos-
pital and let us see if you can perform
an operation or give an injection and if
you do, after a year or two we will
register you. This is a man who has
passed certain basic exams but has not
taken his State Board exam, as Mr.
Baynes said- For that reason he was
debarred from practising in his own
country, in the British Caribbean, inthe
States. If he had passed that State
Board exam he would be eligible to
practise in these Colonies.
Let us not continue to hear this tale
that because he did not go to a United
Kingdom University he cannot be admit-
ted. That is so much nonsense. Any
doctor with a United States degree can
be admitted to practise not only in the
British Caribbean but in the United
Kingdom and many doctors with Ameri-
can degrees have been and are practis-
ing in these territories now. The Den-
tist who has served us for so many
years-Dr. Ellis-has a United States
qualification. So far as I know he has
never been to England in his life. So
when any attempt is made to equate
this business to a matter of prejudice
because it is not a United Kingdom
Examination, we are fooling ourselves.
I know many doctors who are practising
in Grenada now who hold nothing but
United States qualifications-both Medi-
cal practitioners and Dental practition-
ers. So let us dispose of this question
about jealousies because it is not a Uni-
ted Kingdom qualification. The fact
remains that the qualification that the
good doctor has does not entitle him to
practise in America, does not entitle him
to practise in his home, it does not entitle

him to practise anywhere in the British
Caribbean. It entitles him to practise
in St. Vincent merely because this Coun-
cil out of its duty to the people who were
in need, saw fit to pass an Ordinance
and saw fit to attach to that Ordinance
a condition that that registration will
remain good only so -long as he served
this Government and by serving this
Government serve the people for whom
this Government is, responsible to see
that they get what little medical atten-
tion they can get in this age when medi-
cal practitioners are so short.
Anyone who wishes to do so may
change it and release the good doctor
to an office in Kingstown. I will not
be a party to it.
HON. G. H. CHARLES: Mr President,
Honourable Members: Speaking on this
motion I would have to say as the other
two previous speakers that I feel to my-
self that the motion is dealing too much
with the individual. But I am sorry
that the Honourable Mover brought this
motion here like this, because I think
it would 'have served a better purpose
if it had been passed to a Committee- for
investigation. The reason for my mak-
ing this point is that I believe that some-
thing is wrong somewhere
Now, we all know that the doctor that
is referred to in this motion is a quali-
fied doctor, nobody is doubting that fact.
As a matter of fact I know several per-
sons who went to other doctors with
certain complaints and got no relief from
them and afterwards when they went
to Dr. Paul he was able to help them.
But it is my honest belief that nobody
is against Dr. Paul himself, but, as the
Honourable Member for Kingstown said,
it is really the principle of the thing we
should look at. It is true that we agreed
to have him registered in a special way
with a certain proviso, but he is only
one man and if he has to do so many
jobs at one time, then I feel that some-
body will suffer, because he must neglect
some. It is my firm conviction that
something is wrong somewhere. I do
not feel that I can support this motion
at all. If I support it, it will certainly

be a danger to the people whom we
serve. I feel that this motion shows
that something is wrong somewhere and
that it calls for an investigation.
I would say that from the reports I
have heard from people who have gone
for attention to Dr. Paul that he is a
very good doctor and I would not like to
see him go. because he is a great help
to the people in the districts he serves
and a lot of other people from all over
the island who leave their homes and
go to him. I do not have anything
against the doctor at all, but I would
say that if we should change that Or-
dinance in such a fashion we will be
asking for trouble.
I would say again if there was not
such a big principle involved in this mo-
tion, I would say we could have passed
it because the man is in truth and in
fact a good doctor, but it would not be
fair to the people that we represent if
we pass such a motion when we have so
few doctors in the island at present.
HoN. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. President,
Honurable Members: For once I had the
patience-because this doctor serves in
my district and lives in my district-
I thought it best to sit and listen,
especially when the First Nominated
Member had finished speaking, I gather-
ed a little bit more information.
Now, to clear up a few points, I my-
self made a few notes on what has been
said so far. Since the last war I hap-
pen to know that in the States most of
the Professors and men of that calibre
went over there, therefore I cannot see
where the feeling comes in about Ameri-
can certificates being inferior. That
clears up that point as far as I am con-
cerned. B* naturally, under the old
British Colonial policy years ago before
we were educated, certain rules were
made in order to give their men the
jobs in these parts.
To get back to the point- Dr. Ram
Harry Paul worked with Dr. Chang Pong,
a Chinese doctor in Trinidad-a friend
of mine: He was sensible enough to go
back to Canada to take that special
examination which enabled him to prac-


tise lawfully in Trinidad when he re-
turned. Dr. Harry Paul on the other
hand did not go to take that exam and so
he was forced to work along with Dr.
Chang Pong because Chang Pong was
We had boys here some of them who
came from the humble walks of life,
passed scholarships and came back to
Serve in their islands but they refused
to stay because they always get more
money elsewhere. They leave these
shores and their people for a few cents.
We were short of doctors because of
that-no human feelings. At the same
time I would not altogether blame the
boys because the Government in many
cases could do much better than they
We got Dr. Ram Harry Paul, we made
a special Ordinance. We did ourselves a
favouor at the time because we were
short of doctors-no doctor in the Grena-
dines, no doctor at Chateaubelair,~io
doctor at South Leeward. So the doc-
tor came and was supposed to do two
districts. Is it the fault of the doctor
or the fault of the Government or the
fault of the pay why we do not get any
doctors in the Leeward area? Is it the
doctor's fault why he must be able to
do two men's job, or is it the fault of this
Government not to get two doctors? Is
there not a. precedence that all doctors
are allowed to do private practise? Is
there not a precedence that every doctor
in Kingstown, St. Vincent, runs a pri-
vate practise? Is it not because of pro-
fessional jealousy, because of the follow-
ing of people he has that the other doc-
tors have got together to be against
him? Whether you like it or not it is
true. That is one thing with medical
men-it is the little kind word you give
them, which I know Dr. Paul does-that
is what makes them feel good and they
keep coming to you whenever they need
help. It is not so much the medicine
that goes down the throat, it is that
little chat with our people, that little
confidence that they develop in him
that makes them come. He is operating
in South Leeward and to my surprise
people from the Windward area and all

4 19

come to him. Whether it is his skill or
not he has gained the favour of the
people and it is the same people he was
put there to serve.
When Dr. Gun-Munro, one of the most
conscientious men we have here-when
he thought it fit to recommend Dr.
Harry Paul to the most important job
in your hospital in St. Vincent, what
made him do that? If we know Dr. Gun-
Munro well and if we think he is a care-
ful man, why do you think he left all
the other doctors and asked Harry Paul
to take his place? That is what we
should look at, because an English doc-
tor thought it was infradig.,-I heard all
those things, and remarks were made
that they would not be under him-an
Indian- a 'coolie' boy. All those things
happened let us not fool ourselves.
It is things like those that caused this
professional jealousy to come about. I
understand very well the principle that
Members are talking about, but I believe
everything would have been alright if
these jealousies had not arisen.
Dr. Ram Harry Paul was never report-
ed to me by any one of my followers, of
which I have more than anyone here,
except the Member for North Windward.
Of all those people who come to me with
various complaints in my area, there has
never been one complaint about Dr. Paul.
These complaints that I have seen here
in the petition probably came from North
Leeward. But you know for yourself
that your roads are bad. If it rains too
much it is very difficult to travel from
one place to another as the roads become
muddy and the car might skid. It is
a very difficult problem. Because of that
you probably got a few complaints from
North Leeward, but do not say here in
answers that he was reported, and try
to kill his professional career' because of
his following.
I am saying that by virtue of principle
he came under certain regulations, and
I do not see where the motion says that
he should be allowed to practise in Kings-
town. I have not seen that in the motion
yet. But one thing I do know is that
he is a West Indian. The other speakers

said about the United States, but he is
a West Indian who went to the United
States to study. He is not a United
States citizen who has come back to the
West Indies. Men like him who toiled
and worked and studied a profession-
those are great men that we have to ad-
mire. Men who slaved-men who served
around kitchens-men who scrub floors
and get their professions-those are great
If you are going to say around here in
this 20th century when we are going for-
ward as West Indians to get somewhere,
that you are going to say because of a
little scrap of paper which you can
amend-we are well aware that human
beings are made alike although they
may be doctors, whether they are Rus-
sians, Spaniards or whatever, they are
alike, because they are made by the
hands of God, and regardless of how
you look at Dr. Paul to me he is a doctor.
These little scraps of paper are always
put up as barriers. When we should be
helping our people up we help them
You have political jealousies, you have
professional jealousies, you have all kinds
of jealousies and it is just because of
their jealousy that they would like to
hold him and tear him to pieces here.
But the voice of the people is the voice
of God, and if the people by virtue of
his good attention show him favour-
because I know, they go down there all
the time in cars that cost them four, five,
or six dollars-if the people show him
favour, well it is for us to judge whether
he is indeed a good doctor. What Dr.
Paul was trying to do is to help those
people-save them those five or six dol-
lars so they probably could spend it on
better medicine, but they turned him
down and the people are still going down
there to him.
I have got up here to say that I have
never ,heard one complaint or anything
bad about him.
Gentlemen, this motion-I would very
much like to tell you that I am in favour
of it, but after listening to the debate
so far I would ask you if a little later

20 ;

we could bring some motion to read
recognizedd University", so that any other
persons who in future might come out
of those Universities, we would not have
to mention names in future.
I thank you.
HON. S. E. SLATER: Mr. President, Hon-
ourable Members: I am very hurt my-
self that things have taken this turn
against a man like Dr. Paul. I know that
he is a very good doctor and that he has
been serving the people well, but, I am
a man who believes in principle.
I do not believe that it is Dr. Paul's
fault that he does not have the required
certificates. I do not believe that it is
our fault-but in spite of that he has
been giving very good service to the peo-
ple among whom he works, so he should
not be blamed for it.
Coming back to services, I remember
well Dr. Zwierz. I also was stationed in
that area and he worked hard. He at-
tended the people there and he also had
an office in Kingstown. I do not know
how he did it but he seemed to have been
able to divide up himself well.
However, I would not like to see that
happen again because some of the people
in the area in which he is stationed are
bound to suffer because of neglect. I
heard one Member to say that the voice
of the people is the voice of God. That
is quite true. We got Dr. Paul here to
serve the people. I have nothing against'
him-I am not making any complaints
against him, but I believe that if Dr.
Paul must practise in Kingstown he can-
not give the service in his district which
he should give to the poorer people.
I do not know if it is better for him to
set up office in Kingstown so that he
may better serve the people of George-
town, or Gomea or Mesopotamia and all
the other districts outside his district.
I think his first consideration should be
for the people whom he was appointed
to serve. If he had served them well
for a number of years before making
such a request then there would be
nothing against him.

I am
is not
-is how

not arguing because this motion
in my favour, but we should
our principles at all times, that
I see it.

Gentlemen, I believe that Dr. Paul has
a big job as it is to look after two areas
at the same time, and I cannot see how
he could take on an office in Kingstown
along with that. I believe our chief
aim should be to see that the people
are satisfied. Therefore, gentlemen, I
am very sorry that this matter had to
come up here this morning, and though
I have nothing against Dr. Paul himself
I do not believe that I should support
this motion.
HON. A. C. CYRUS: Mr. President, Hon-
ourable Members, I had no intention
whatever in taking part in this debate,
but I think it is necessary for me to
draw to the attention of some Members
here the salient points in the debate.
It seems to me that some Members
have got the idea .that it is felt that Dr.
Paul is not qualified as a doctor. Let
me make it quite clear-what I under-
stand here today is that Dr. Paul is
fully qualified as a medical man. I do
not think Government would be so care-
less as to appoint someone Who was
not qualified, especially in the medical
field-but the point that they have been
missing is that although he is a qualified
doctor, he has not passed the required
final exam which is called the State
Board Exam, which would have enabled
him to practise. Apparently, when he
had completed his studies he had to leave
the country hurriedly or something like
that, and he could not have time to take
this State Board Exam, although it Is
so necessary. So that is why he is not
allowed to practise in these places. But
I want Members to understand quite
clearly that the St. Vincent Government
would not have employed him in the
first instance if he were not qualified.
Many Members have been making ex-
cuses and saying that they are sorry
that this is a personal Bill. It is really
a personal Bill-I think it is called the
Ram Harry Paul Bill and I feel that as

such you have to keep it to the indivi-
dual. You cannot generalise with this
one as it is.
What I would like to impress on Mem-
bers is that the man is definitely a quali-
fied person.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. President, I
believe that there would be much more
debate on this motion and therefore I
think we should take the adjournment
MR. PRESIDENT: I suspected so myself.
Would anyone move a motion for the
HON. E. A. C. HUGHES: Mr. President
I beg to move that this House be adjour-
ned until 2 o'clock.
HON. CROWN ATTORNEY: I beg to second
MR. PRESIDENT: The House stands ad-
journed until 2 o'clock.

HON. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. President,
Hon. Members: I think I should offer
my quota on this motion at this stage.
Now, there has always been a need and
a cry for doctors in this Colony-more so
for the outdistricts- and especially the
Grenadines. It is not so long ago that
we were so glad to get this doctor with
this American qualification-we were
even hoping and wondering if we could
get some more doctors with American
qualifications. We made a special Bill to
allow this doctor to practise here. Now,
I cannot understand-I see this same Bill
that we agreed to coming back here in a
disguised fashion. I really do not see
what all this red tape is about now. We
should remember that we are working
towards Federation and Nationhood and
therefore there should be some sort of
uniformity of educational standards and
things of the kind.
Now, we all know that to be qualified
as a doctor you have to study for many
years. You cannot make a doctor over-
night. You can quicker make a minister
overnight. I know how these people suf-

fer when they have no doctor in their
districts. I know all about it. Thou-
sands of them from all over the island
suffer when there is no doctor in their
The resolve of this motion is quite tech-
nical and we may say here to allow him
to practise here or there or any part of
the Colony, but we do not have the last
say because we should remember the
Governor's veto powers when we talk
that way. This is quite a ticklish thing
because this Bill is confined solely to one
man-it is confined to Dr. Ram Harry
Paul-so that is where the technical
point comes in.
I know that Dr. Paul is a very efficient
man because a lot of people from my
area go to him. They go in bus-loads
because they find him a good man.
What I would say is that this motion
-should be looked into carefully and think
about the resolve seriously.
HON. A. B. DOSSANTOS: Mr. President,
Hon. Members, I believe there is a good
case for this resolution seeing there was
precedence prior to this case. But along
with the arguments for and against in
this debate we will realise that there has
been a marked difference in that district
or those districts in which this good doc-
tor is now performing his duties. From
that point- of view, sir, I am going to
support this motion.
MR. PRESIDENT: If no other Honour-
able Member wishes to speak on this
motion, does the Honourable Mover wish
to exercise his right to reply?
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. President,
Honourable Members: for the last few
years I have been in this Legislative
Council, I have experienced a certain
behaviour hese and I am still experi-
encing it. When I am in favour, well
then, I get up and speak and I am satis-
fied with that, but when I am not in
favour, well then, I move even the stones
to rise.
I listened to the First Nominated Mem-
ber when he got up to speak-I listened
to all the Members in fact. You have

here on the Ram Harry Paul Ordinance
a personal Bill-a Bill with a string that
serves its purpose. This is not some-
thing that was made by the Mover of the
motion-it is just the very Bill, and I
know and many of us know that this
doctor is practising with satisfaction dis-
pite these stereotyped answers to ques-
This thing is as clear as day. It is not
as the First Nominated Member tried to
say, that the Member for North Wind-
ward is always bringing some cock-eyed
motion. That is what: he implied this
morning in .his speech-it is not so. It
means that you have a man :.that is
known to work and work hard at his job,
and not only that,: but it is known that
this Paul, not only is he a doctor, but he
is a doctor who knows his job well.
The First Nominated Member spoke
about opposition when Dr. Paul was to be-
appointed. The only time that he could
be referring to was that time when the
question of the knowledge of the qualifi-
cations of Dr. Paul was raised. That is
the only time that I can remember-
when Elected Members wanted to find
out whether Paul was from Scotland or a
London Hospital or Boston or from
where. It was a fact that when I asked
certain questions at that time certain
Members thought that those questions
should not have been asked. They
brought a Bill-a Government Bill in the
form of a personal Ordinance--the Ram
Harry Paul Ordinance.
I am saying this that you want to tell
me that a Government Departmnt hav-
ing a Medical Practitioner-you will
straight off tell him he must not set up
any office in the town, but you stay at
Leeward and attend to certain measures
of work? But what is it you are trying
to do at all? What difference would it
make? You have heard for yourself that
people flock to him from all over the
island. If he stays in his district all day
they will find their way to him, if he
comes into Kingstown it will be the same,
and he is not such a fool as to neglect
his main duty-the district to which he
was appointed.

It is not the fact of his not carrying
out instructions, because that could have
a remedy-and in a country like this a
very severe remedy. But here you have
it- the very thing-. You cannot go to
remove on your own the very string that
could be removed without any motion
being brought here. You cannot go.
Well, if you cannot move it, I will resign
-but no, you cannot go. You owe me
money. Well, do you not see that the
statement in the motion is to correct a
convenience, do you not see it clearly?
The Member for North Leeward spoke,
but of course, I am in sympathy with
him. Why I am in sympathy with him?
Because representatives of districts
would have to please the people of their
constituencies. But the districts of
South,Leeward and North Leeward-one
of those districts assigned to Dr. Paul is
just a matter of extending to fill a gap.
The question is that Paul, according to
what was said here, it would give one the
impression to believe that we always try
to lower people here when you have your
own aims and plans to carry out. I am
being mis-represented here everytime,
but when it comes to intelligence, when
it cones to right action-I would like to
see outside the Legislative Council, any-
one who could cross his sword with me.
The question now in a motion here-
the very Bill that you have made and
passed here-it bears the name Ram
Harry Paul'Ordinance, which means that
it is not an Ordinance to amend the
Income Tax Ordinance which is general.
It is not an Ordinance to amend the
Praedial Larceny Ordinance, but it is a
Rain Harry Paul Ordinance. Well in
commonsense, is not this a personal Bill?
In the name of reason and commonsense
what do you call that--not a personal
Bill and one that appertains to Paul and
Paul alone? But now we hear that the
resolve from the very Bill, if it is to be
amended, should be amended to include
all the Medes, Persians and inhabitants
of Mesopotamia and of Syrene and about
Jordan. Anyone when it comes to regis-
ter, should be registered under it. Look
at a fallacy! Are we really serious when

we say such a thing? A personal Bill-
including a paragraph 2 preamble-a
simple matter!
"So much nonsense" says the First
Nominated Member. I will never forgive
the First Nominated Member for intellec-
tual mischief around this Table, because
he knows better. He was here long
Dr. Paul was prevented from practis-
ing in his own native land, you say. But,
get this clear gentlemen, it is not a ques-
tion of the man not being qualified as
some Members seem to think. We are
not talking here of registering quacks.
It is not that at all. It is a question
where a man is fully qualified, and there
is no question about that. We have seen
his experience at the hospital here
acting for Gun-Munro, and I am thank-
ful to him. It seems to me that when
we do not agree with things here we try
to make the movers of motions look silly,
foolish and actually forgetting that he
knows anything at all-as if you feel he
should regard himself as totally illit-
erate, when we begin to twist things here
to suit our purposes in this House, and I
am tired of that. I am sick of it.
The question is that this thing is twist-
ed to show that this doctor leaves his
district-neglects his district like a
money-seeking quack to get the money of
those who can pay, when that is not so.
It is far from that. It is that when any
man stands up here with any fame and
certain men do not approve of that he
must either go or stand the consequen-
ces. This is something that should stop.
We cannot still aspire to Nationhood and
talk about constitutions and have these
things remain. They will clog the
wheels of our progress.
The practice in the United States-a
United States University turning out its
own graduates would not allow them to
practise there. That sounds more to be
like nonsense.. Suppose for instance, you
pass the B.A. or the B.Sc,, in Economics,
and you come here to St. Vincent and
you went to the Education Department
to be a teacher-an elementary school
teacher. You are not qualified to teach

in St. Vincent save and except you hold
a teacher's certificate. You are not a
qualified teacher except you get some
principles of teaching-how to write
script and all that kind of thing. Unless
you know the methods as they call it,
and get the Education Department's
certificate to say that this is a qualified
Grade I Teacher or whatever grade.
It is, gentlemen, that the tendency of
the questions was backed up by the
motion, because I did not expect to get
any better answers to those questions.
This is only a mock parliament here for
the time being. Whatever it will be
under ministerial portfolios I do not
know, but for the present time you can-
not ask supplementary questions here-
you have to be satisfied with the answers
as they are and therefore the'only thing
to counteract that is to follow it up by a
relevant motion in the House.
MR. PRESIDENT: On a point of order,
Mr. Joshua, you can ask supplementary
HON E. T. JoSHUA: I am quite sur-
prised to hear that, sir. The. idiosyn-
cracies and notions of different Presi-
dents who came in our midst seemed to
show that each man had his own code of
parliamentary practice and procedure
here, that is why I am so apprehensive.
Because sometimes you are ruled out
here as if this is a mock parliament. All
those changes I have come through that
now I have forgotten that part of demo-
cracy that supplementary questions can
be asked in the House.
It sounds a simple point, but yet it is
a big point. Dr. Paul according to the
Bill itself-the Bill itself where I stopped
-it is the same Bill, gentlemen, only I
stopped at a point. You are going to
tell me a year has passed and according
to these questions here God knows how
many other strings are attached, and you
just have Dr. Paul here for a conveni-
ence-say what you like. No report was
brought to the Government that Paul,
instead of attending the people at Lee-
ward was doing private practice. There
is nothing on record.

I am satisfied this day that I have the
people of my country at heart, but I can-
not prevent my ears from hearing and
my eyes from seeing. I have, and if
proof there is, there is proof in the
island of St. Vincent that Joshua, the
Member for North Windward has his
people at heart. Hence I would be the
last man to be an agent or a party to
malingering in the Medical Department.
But what is morally right and just,
though the heavens fall I would-practise
it or try to practise it as near as a hu-
man being can. The fact that since this
Government cannot adduce any charges
against Dr. Paul for misconduct, ma-
lingering of duties or else shows that
something is wrong. This thing is quite
clear. Why should a matter that is dis-
connected with any imperial parliament
-a matter that is connected with Dr.
Paul's registration-a matter that is con-
nected with a private Bill, a Bill and
Ordinance to register an individual-not
a general Ordinance we want an amend-
ment made to-but, gentlemen, one
man's Bill. When he is gone this is
finished with. But the amendment that
you seek to make is an amendment that
will effect many. -
The question is that I did not know I
would have to wet my shirt for a simple
matter like this. I did not know that I
would have to do that to convince men
on such a simple point. Paul is not on
the planet Mars or on the planet Nep-
tune. He is on the earth with us, and
those of us who could appreciate, those
of us who spoke this morning and said
many things, think of it again and see
if you are really sincere to your con-
The last point that I must make before
I sit down is this-render unto Caeser
the things that are Caesar's, and of
course, there would be nothing short of
rendering unto God as we ought. I am
satisfied that we would be very wrong if
we keep a bond on Paul to say that he
must practise indefinitely here until per-
haps he pays a sum of money that had
perhaps prevented him from leaving
here. Because if a man has ability, I

believe here is the last place to come and
display it, because those who have none
and have the power to cross your path,
they humbug you in this island here. I
am sorry to say so, but I am a Vincen-
tian and I am ashamed of it. And this
thing arises from small men with small
minds who get together and recently
enforce all these things in a private Bill
and Ordinance so that you either go or
I do not agree with the Member for
North Leeward-the same knife he used
at the hospital-the same stethoscope he
sounds you with now, those will become
illegal overnight as soon as you feel yoiu
do not like him any more, then you
begin to say that he is illegally collecting
money all about and things of the kind?
Well, then, when we see that nothing
else can be done-it is either to put links
of iron to prevent him and leave those
others like wild boars in a vineyard to
roam wherever and to do whatever they
like-and say to our posterity, we have
a parliament here.
MR. PRESIDENT: There is a motion
before the House-the first motion stand-
ing in the name of the Member for North
Those in favour?
Those against?
The motion is lost.
I call upon the Member for North
Windward to move/the second motion
standing in his name.
HoN. E. T. JosHUA: Whereas it is the
practice over a very long period in this
Colony to rent land plots to peasants
and/or labourers from Government
Crown Lands and private owned es-
tates as at present is the case, at a
specified rental per acre;
AND WHEREAS owing to recent Commis-
sions appointed to enquire into indus-
tries and agricultural labour and wages
etc. the large estate proprietors prepare
in advance certain organized reaction
and apparent reprisals on peasants and
labourers before the deliberations of such
Commissions have made their findings;

AND WHEREAS mass dispossession of ten-
nants and renters of land in this Colony
is contemplated by some and action
taken by others of the large land pro-
prietors to increase inordinately the
price for renting lands to their tenants
and these large estate owners are pre-
paring mass quit notices;
AND WHEREAS planned methods to re-
duce the peasant and labouring popula-
tion to abject poverty and further misery
should have an answer by this Govern-
ment by provision being made for norm-
al, satisfied and peaceful relationship
between all classes and a vast land
starved population of peasants and
labourers infesting the Colony;
AND WHEREAS it becomes expedient
that this Government regulate the price
for the rental of certain mountain lands
and the dispossession of agricultural
tenants by their landlords to meet the
apparent threat;
BE IT RESOLVED that Government seek
to protect the peasantry and the labour-
ers who hold lands by rental planted in
long term crops, such as arrbwroot or
sugar canes so that they be not dis-
possessed arbitrarily by landlords unless
compensation be paid to the renters for
their stools of canes or arrowroots.
year .be allowed to renters holding
lands of large estate owners after the
reaping of the last crop planted with
long term crops.
Mr. President, Honourable Members:
Of course, a motion of the kind to re-
gulate the depossession of tenants, and
the type,of treatment meted out to peas-
ants and labourers holding lands here, is
long overdue. The regulation of that
should have been done now of course,
iri practice. I do not know, but, fear of
security seems to be the mortal's chiefest
enemy of this country. It behaves like
a game of drafts or a game of chess. As
soon as one thing is in sight you begin
to take precautionary measures for the

A commission can only find reasonable
findings, and despite a Commission, we
could only put into practice here reason-
able findings- from other facts. But
already scores of people are coming to
me telling me the moves that are being
made to dispossess them of lands. Peo-
ple are saying, and I have already re-
ceived information that the lands that
even were told to Commissions that were
given to peasants that they have not got
-the question of those peasants who had
crops of arrowroot growing for so many
years are now threatened. And I say,
that if that is so it- should be necessary
that some guarantee in law be given to
these people who, apart from the fact
that they must live-and as each unit
is an integral part of a Federation-that
no civilized county can ginore-in fact
trouble is always caused when the peas-
antry was suppressed or oppressed.
We, those of us who had the privilege
to read the French Revolution of 1789
when the peasantry in the land-any
peasant who grew twelve bushels of
wheat, eleven were taken as taxes and
one bushel was left for him to manage
with somehow for himself and family.
Those things were the nucleus on which
the French Revolution grew. And those
of us who cannot prevent ourselves from
studying history, know that that is true.
It is all well and good because we have
subservient arid loyal subjects to Her
Majesty the Queen that we should strain
their backs and refuse to do anything to
protect them. The age of breaking down
houses and throwing them in the road
seems to have passed, and now it has
come to a point where the raw question
of land in a country where thousands of
people should have had their own hold-
ings of land is nbt existing, and when
you are forced to have land held by a
tenancy-is it a feeling therefore that the
peasant must always be kept in one
state, so that we could be the dominant
factors for ever, -unto our heirs and
assigns forever? Is it not time for move-
ments of events in this country, time
that we check, examine ourselves here
even for the good of our' country? In

stead of that as soon as a move is made
in one direction that may bear fruit, a
counter move begins in the next.
I have had cases-the Labour Commis-
sioner was informed-where suddenly
and out of the blue before a man reaps
his cane-not ratoons-before the crop
is properly reaped and blades of cane
again begin to show themselves above
the earth, you send to give him notice
and tell him you want the land. That is
labour being expended there and nobody
seems to care about the labour of these
peasants. It is all well and good to tell
them to take legal proceedings, but if he
has not got the money to put in the
hands of the lawyers as the First Nomi-
nated Member says, see if he would get
any justice from them.
Now, I do not think that this motion
needs much debate because it is quite
clear. You cannot tell a man that I rent,
you an acre of land, you agree to pay
ten dollars, but as soon as I feel like it
I give you notice-sometimes just after
six months you tell him well, as soon as
you get out this crop I want my land.
That is what is happening today in this
country. When that happens then what
happens to the peasantry?
Gentlemen, some men would rather be
humiliated than to indefinitely face cer-
tain conditions, and I am saying that it
is our duty to listen every shade of
opinion. Just now it was a motion for a
doctor, now it is a motion for peasants
and labourers. So it is quite clear that
the Member for North Windward stands
for what he thinks is right and just to
protect all shades or classes of this com-
I hold the view that this is a free
world and man should not enslave man.
We have passed through too many
things. We have seen within the last
twenty or thirty years too many things
that we should still keep such narrow
views. We have seen many things.
Some of us sitting around this Table
have seen two world wars and it is
time that we work towards the socializ-
ing influence of peace in the world.
Wars destroy the work of centuries-not

only the great wars when atomic bombs
were used, but I speak of wars-indus-
trial wars-wars in which there are
poverty-stricken, backward countries like
St. Vincent where some fight a war daily
to get a very crust of bread. But of
course some may have enough and to
spare to throw to the dogs while others
smart inside with hunger.
The motion here seeks, let there be no
mistake about the resolve, that machin-
ery of law be set up in this country to
protect a man having a piece of land
with his crops and just out of the blue a
dissatisfied land-owner comes and gives
him notice for six months. Next year's
crop would have been just the time-
when a piece of land came from a moun-
tain of bush and trees where those
rotten tree roots have just been taken
out where an increase would have been
welcome to cover the next year's wants-
it is taken away from him. And of
course, all the benefit of his substance
goes to the owner of the land.
Gentlemen, Mr. President, this is what
the motion seeks and it is so clear. Some
time ago in 1953, a motion was brought
here to regularise the notice given to
tenants and of course, in theory it
might be somewhere among the Han-
sards of this House, if any there be.
The subject is here again before this
House in this motion seeking to protect
planters of long term crops. It means
that is you give a man'notice this year
he cannot get the land until the end of
next year, if he could show the Court
not that he just has some potato vines
there or he just has some ground nuts
or something like that, but when he can
show that he has an acre of arrowroot
and the stools have just begun to germi-
nate again to make another crop for the
.benefit of some one else, .legislation
should be provided here, gentlemen, to
put an end to that.
HON. J. A. BAYNES: Mr. President,
Honourable Members: I rise to second
this motion for which, in my opinion,
something ought to be done.
Like it is with the Laws of St. Vincent
so it is with the Law relating to the rent-

ing of land and land settlement. The.
laws of St. Vincent have been revised
here and revised there, and finally some
of them when they are brought up again
show that they still want revision.
Here in St. Vincent, in the past, when
the price of labour was between 15 and
30 cents a day, it was all right when you
gave a man a piece of land and he
cleared it up and planted one set crop,
and you took it away when that crop was
over. Though he took it to the law then.
-the law was not as great as it is now.
Today labour has gone higher and the
peasant is hardly able to make a living
out of his small holding. Sometimes in
order to increase his annual takings he
forces to make an effort to find lands to
rent, whether it be from the estates,
Government or else. But now I believe,
subject to correction, that it is still so on
our Statute Books that you give him six
months' notice and he clears off. Well
that can only mean that when he rents
a bit of land for one year as soon as the
year is coming to an end he is often told
that he can only have the land for .18
months. But in crops such as sugar
cane, it will take him from twelve to
fifteen months to reap one crop of cane,
and we all know that in planting crops
such as cane and arrowroot one crop
would not bring back the money expend-
ed in preparing those lands. As a con-
sequence when the land is taken away
from him he is at a disadvantage. And
that I believe-it is not done in any part
of St. Vinicent so frequently, but we still
have it lingering here and there where
many landowners who might be just
listening for that, only have to be told
that some fellow said something ill about
him and he gives him notice. Therefore
it means that the fellow when he is ready
to give up the land has to seal the peace
if he wants to have a chance to rent that
land again.
Well, those things as I sse them are
things that actually should be done away
with. I believe that a man's first right
is the right to make a living and there
should be no barriers set up along that
line. It is true that we have a shortage

of land and that those people who own
lands actually hold the fate of the peas-
ants in their hands. Still, in spite of
that I think it is Government's duty to
bring the laws on rental of such lands up
to date, so that the small man who is
forced to deal with lands in some way or
other may be protected. The .vexed
question of land tenants has been
brought here time and again and no-
thing has been done about it. In my
estimation this is a time when we are
buund to have a transition period, from
an economic stand point and Govern-
ment should gear themselves to meet it,
because if that is not done it would
mean that people would be only forced
to leave St. Vincent as soon as they pos-
sibly can in order to find means and ways
of making a living abroad. When a man
is debarred from making his living he
has nothing to live for, and that as I see
it is fast becoming the lot of the common
man here in St. Vincent.
I think this motion really deserves a
certain amount of consideration so that
some measure of protection be given to
the people who are forced to work rented
lands for a livelihood.
dent, Honourable Members: If I speak
right now before the motion is too much
debated it might save a lot of time.
It is a very good motion, but I am
afraid it is untimely-or out of time,
rather, because there is now in the
hands of the Printers a Bill to be
brought before this House covering exact-
ly what the mover of this motion
The object of this Bill is to protect the
tenant of a small holding' as much as-
possible and to encourage him to use the
holding as much as possible and to en-
courage him to use the holding in a
husbandlike manner. A small holding is
defined as a parcel of land that could be
used for cultivation consisting of nut
less than half an acre and not more than
ten acres. The Bill requires that the let-
ting of such a holding must be by a
contract which must be registered. The

contract imposes an obligation on the
tenant to cultivate the holding in accord-
ance with the rules of good husbandry
and an obligation on the landlord to
permit quiet enjoyment of the holding
by the tenant and to compensate him on
the termination of the tenancy for any
improvement he has made with the con-
sentof the landlord. There are provi-
sions whereby any dispute between land-
lord and tenant as to the amount of
compensation payable is to be settled by
the Superintendent of Agriculture whose
award is subject to review on appeal to
a Magistrate. The Bill is patterned off
the Grenada Ordinance No. 17 of 1952.

Now, this Bill will very shortly, as soon
as it is printed, be brought and will be
introduced into this House. Honourable
Members therefore, will have the oppor-
tunity after having read the Bill and
criticised it to add or subtract as they in
their conscience think it right. So I
do not think then, gentlemen, that this
motion needs to be debated. I would
suggest that the honourable Mover with-
draw the motion because the Bill is going
to be brought before this House very

HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. President,
Honourable Members: I think that in
fairness to the Honourable Mover-I do
not think that it should be withdrawn.
This just shows that he was thinking
along the lines that Government was
thinking. That is fair enough. But the
big point is that-that is why you have
opposition in Parliament-since I did not
know about this thing now I have
brought up the same subject only to be
told that action is being taken, well
then, let us make it twice as strong.
What I am trying to say is instead of the
motion being vetoed as is usual it should
go through this time. Lots of times mo-
tions have been moved here for and on
behalf of the people but we never hear
anymore about them. Well, this is one
that something should come out of. I do
not see why the motion should be with-

MR. PRESIDENT: I think the mover of
the motion is engaged in making up his
HON. H. F. YOUNG: I had intended to
speak on this motion myself and to sup-
port it, but since the Crown Attorney has
thrown some light on it I am just giving
my views.

HON. E. A. C. HUGHES: Mr. President,
Honourable Members, I must say I am at
a loss to understand the last speaker.
Here we find one of those happy occa-
sions where the Government has decided
to do something, the Opposition wants
it to be done, everybody has agreed'that
it should be done, but the Honourable
Member says why withdraw it? Let us
have a debate on it. We have all agreed,
but let us debate it, time does not

point, Mr. President.
stop debating it now.
withdraw it.

That was not my
I feel that we can
All I said is not to

HON. E. A. C. HUGHES: Unfortunately
the history of this House is that when
one man debates, all debate. The Hon-
ourable Member has had his quota, I
have had mine. Now we must all have
ours although we have all agreed that it
is a first class thing. We have all
agreed, but nevertheless let us not with-
draw it. Let us go ahead. Let us waste
as much 'time as we can.
HON. H. F. YOUNG: I did not say that
at all.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. President, I
understand the Member for South Lee-
ward's point very well. We have to be
careful. We learnt that from our experi-
ence here in this House. However, I
withdraw the motion.

MR. PRESIDENT: Is there any opposi-
tion to that withdrawal of the motion?
I call upon the Member for North
Windward to move the third motion
standing in his name.

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. President,
Honourable Members, I always like to
hear what other Members have to say
and this morning an Honourable Member
drew. my attention to the fact that what
my motion is seeking to effect may not
alone, serve the purpose. I would there-
fore ask that this motion be withdrawn.
MR. PiRESnDENT: Is there any opposi-

The following Bills were introduced
and read a first time:,
The Water Distribution Bill.
The Banana Growers Association
(Amendment) Bill.
The President presented a certificate
of emergency in respect of the Banana
Growers Association (Amendment) Bill
which was accepted by Council and the
Bill was read a second and third time
and passed without amendment.
The Roads Bill was read a second time
and in Committee the following amend-
ments were inserted:
Clause 2:, The word "the" at the end
of the second line was deleted.
Clause 7: The caption was amended
to read "Control of Roads to be vested in
the Superintendent of Works."
Clause 10, sub-clause (2): Schedule
"K" was amended to read Schedule "J".
Clause 10, sub-clause (3): A proviso
was added at the end of clause to read:
"Provided that any person aggrieved by
such appraisement may appeal to.the
Governor in Council."
Clause 13: In the 4th line of the
proviso (a), the word "provisions" was
deleted and "growing crops" substituted.
Cluase 17 was amended to read: "If
at any time the Superintendent of Works
shall deem it necessary for the protec-
tion of any road that any drain or outlet
should be constructed on adjoining land
for the conveyance of water from such
road on to the adjoining land, or that
any existing drain or outlet on such
land should be cleared, or that any ob-

struction should be removed from any
existing drain or outlet the Superinten-
dent of Works may enter upon such
lands and execute the necessary works."
Clause 19, sub-clause (1): In the
fourth line a,comma and the figure "17"
were inserted between "14" and the word
A similar amendment was inserted in
the fourth line of sub-clause (5).
Clause 23 was amended to read:
Compen- Where any bearing coconut
station for tree planted before the 31st
coconut day of December, 1927 over-
trees cut hangs a road, the Superinten-
down. dent of Works may, if the
Spwner shall, at the request of
Ithe Superintendent of Works,
remove such coconut tree, pay
jas compensation for the same,
the sum of ten dollars.

Provided that nothing in
;this section shall affect or de-
rogate from the provisions of
section 20 of this Ordinance.

Clause 24; sub-cluase (1) was amended
to read: "No house, building or other
structure of whatever kind shall be erect-
ed within eleven feet from the side of
any road:"
After the consideration of Clause 26
Council adjourned at 6 p.m. until 11 a.m.
on Friday 4th November, 1955.

Council re-assembled at 11 a.m. All
Members present with the exception for
Kingstown. The Council continued to
consider the Roads Bill in Committee.
Clause 27: In the third line of sub-
clause (h), the words "the surface of"
were inserted between "upon" and
Sub-clause (1) was deleted.
Sub-clause (q) was deleted and the
other sub-clauses relettered and the
words "one hundred" were substituted
for ninety-six" in the third line before
the last line of the clause.
Clause 29 was deleted.

Clause 30, sub-clause (3): The words
"and twenty cents" were deleted in the
second line, and -twenty-five cents" sub-
stituted for twenty-four cents" in the
fourth line.
Sub-clause 6-"Twenty-five dollars" was
substituted for "twenty-four dollars" in
the fourth line.
Clause 37 was deleted.
Part VIII-Financial Provisions:
Clauses 39-41 were deleted.
Part IX Miscellaneous-was re-num-
bered to read Part VIII.
Clauses 47 and 48 were deleted.
Clause 49: The words "a misdemean-
:ur" in the last line of the clause were
deleted an,' the words-"an offence under
this Ordinance" were subst4uted..
Clause 52 was amended to read. "The
Governor in Council may by order pro-
claim creation or cessation of a public
Schedule (J) was deleted.
The Bill was then read a third.time
and passed.
Council adjourned at 12.30 p.m. until
2 p.m. for lunch.

Council resumed at 2 p.m. All Mem-
-ers present as in the forenoon.
The Prevention of Crime (Offensive
Weapons) Bill was read a second time.
In Committee the Bill was amended by
deleting the dash and (a) in Clause 3
and the words "or both" in the, third line
of the sub-clause (a). Sub-clause (b)
was also deleted.
The Bill was r4ad a third time and
The Hydro-Electric (Amendment) Bill
was read a second and third time and
passed without amendment.

The Summary Conviction (Praedial
Larceny) Bill was read a second time
and referred to a .Select Committee com-
prising the. Honourable Crown Attorney,
Chairman, the Honourable E. T. Joshua,
the Honourable E. A. C. Hughes, the Hon-
ourable H. F. Young.
(The Member for North Windward left
at 3.10 p.m.
Upon a motion by the Honourable
Colonial Treasurer, seconded by the
Honourable Crown Attorney Council con-
sidered seriatim the following amend-
ments to the Income Tax Ordinance
1954 under Rule 48 of the Standing Rules
and Orders of the Legislative Council:
Clause 14 (1): "four hundred and
eighty dollars" was substituted for "five
hundred dollars" in line 5,
Clause 15: "four hundred and eighty
dollars was substituted for "five hun-
dred dollars" in. line 3.,
Clause 17: the dash after the word
"deduction" in line 15 was deleted and
the; words "of two hundred dollars:" sub-
stituted. The sub-paragraphs (a), (b),
(c) and (d) and the two first provisos
were deleted, 4nd the following substi-
tuted. "Provided that no deduction
shall be allowed in respect of any child
who is entitled in his own rights to an
income exceeding two hundred dollars.a
"Clause 74: "1956" was substituted for
"1955".in the second line.
The last three lines of the second
schedule were amended to read:
On the next $2,500 50 cents $8,995.00. $12,500.00
S $2,500 60 cents $5,495.00 $15,000.00
Remainder 65 cents, $8,495M00 $20,000.00
The above amendments were approved
by Council under protest.

Council adjourned at 3.50. p.m. sine die.

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