An Ordinance to make provision...
 Statutory Rules and Orders No....
 Legislative Council Proceedings...

Title: Saint Vincent government gazette
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00077473/00261
 Material Information
Title: Saint Vincent government gazette
Alternate Title: Government gazette
St. Vincent government gazette
Physical Description: v. : ; 35 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Saint Vincent
Publisher: G.P.O.
Place of Publication: Kingstown, St. Vincent
Kingstown St. Vincent
Publication Date: February 28, 1956
Frequency: weekly
Subject: Gazettes -- Periodicals -- Saint Vincent   ( lcsh )
Genre: federal government publication   ( marcgt )
legislation   ( marcgt )
periodical   ( marcgt )
Spatial Coverage: Saint Vincent and the Grenadines -- Saint Vincent
Dates or Sequential Designation: v. 1, no. 1 (1868)-v. 112, no. 48 (Tues., 23 Oct. 1979)
General Note: Description based on: Vol. 111, no. 1 (Tues., 3 Jan. 1978); title from caption.
General Note: Supplements which accompany some numbers contain extraordinary issues, ordinances, statutory rules of order, etc.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00077473
Volume ID: VID00261
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 19844741
lccn - sn 89018505
 Related Items
Succeeded by: Government gazette

Table of Contents
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    An Ordinance to make provision for the creation of a Public Service Commission
        Page A 1-10
    Statutory Rules and Orders No. 6: The Motor Vehicles and Road Traffic (Pedestrian Crossings) Regulations, 1956 - 28th February, 1956
        Page A 11
        Page A 12
    Legislative Council Proceedings and Debates (Hansard) in the third session (1953-1954) held on the 4th March, 1945
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Full Text




aublishdml bg uthoritg.

VOl,. 89. -SAINT VINCIN NI'. TUESDAY, 28 FEBRUARY. 1156. [No 12.


No. 72.
With reference to Government Notice No. 64 of 16th February. 1956,
O.B.E., Governor and Conmmander-in-ChieJ of' the Windward Islands, retutin (I
to Grenada on the 25th February, 1956.
28th February, 1956.
(A. 2/1950 III).

No. 73.

It is notified for general in forma ioij that ti ,re will hle a meeting of the
Legislative Council at the Council Chnimber. Kingstown, on Thursday, 8th
March, 1956, at 10.C0 a.m.
A cordial invitation to attend is extended to the general public.
28th February. 1956.
(A. 1/1949 II.)

No. 74.


The undermn'tiiotned piersos hax,
been. appointed as Members ni tih
Board of Education unmer the Educa-
tion Ordinance. 1937. for a period of
nme year with effect from 5th Fi-ltn-
ary, 1956:-
T. D. ARCHER. Esq., (Chairmtant)
The Education Officer
The Inspector of Scholols

The Headmiiistress. Girls' High School
The Hotioural-it. G. H. CHAIILEM
The Venerabie Archdeacon R. S.
The Veryt R',vvrend Father PLACID
''The Rev-t-eend J. H. BROOMER
1E. 1U. JOHN, Esq., Representing the
Teach-r's Association
H. S. McCONNiE, Esq., B.Se.
28th Fehrtmry, 1956.

-32 7)4-?

(E. 3M1948).


No. 75. No. 78.

The Administrator has appointed the Mr. EDMUND ARNOLD JoACHIM has
following persons to be memlbeisof the been elected a Member of the Barrou-
Labour Advisory Board under the pro- allie Town Board in place of Mr. A.
visions of Section 4 of Ordinance No. MANDEVILLE who has resigned.
14 of 1952, for a period of one year as 28th February, 1956.
from 10th February, 1956:- (A. 8/1949).
V. D. ARCHER, Esq., (Chairman)
Hon. E. T. JOSHUA, No. 79.
R. 0. P. BRYAN, Esq., M.B.E.
F. J. DARE, Esq. The Right Honourable the Secretary
J. L. EUSTACE, Esq. of State for the Colonies has notified that
LEROY ADAMS, Esq. JHer Majesty the QUEEN will not be
R. I. SAMUEL, Esq. advised to exercise her power of dis-
R. M. CATO, Esq. allowance in respect of the following
The Superintendent of Agriculture. Orditi.:.naf, of this Government:-
The Education Officer No. 15 of 1955.-An Ordinance to
Secretary:-The Labour Inspector. repeal andi replace the Roads
The Labour Commissioner willattend Ordinance 1949.
the meetings of the Board, and will act (J 2/1946).
as Liaison Officer between the Board 28th February, 1956.
and Government.
28th February, 1956. No. 80.
(A. 4/1948). The undermentioned Ordinance

No, 76.

Under the provisions of Section 6 of
the Public Library Ordinance 1950, the
following persons have been appointed
members of the Library Committee f'or
the year 1956:-

The Honourable A. C.


R. G. JOHN, B.A., Appointe-d by
Barrister-at-Law. Kingstown
W. H. LEWIS, Esq., Board.
Miss J. BUCHAN, Appointed by
M.A. Dip. Ed. the Adminiis-
C. G. HUGGINS, Esq., trator.
Secretary-The Librarian.
Mr. R. G. JOHN, B.A., Barrister at
Law, has been appointed Deputy Chair-
man of the Committee.
28th February, 1956.
(E. 1/1950).

No. 77.

The undermentioned persons have
been appointed members of the Law
Library Committee. under the provis-
ions of section 4 of the Law Library
Ordinance, 1946, for a period of two
years, with effect from the 1st Febru-
ary, 1956 :-
R. M. CATO, Esq., Barrister-at-Law.
RUPERT JOHN, Esq., Barrister-at-Law.
28th February, 1956.
(J. 3811950).

which has been assented by the Gov-
ernor's Deputy is published for general
information :-
No. 2 of 1956.-An Ordinance to
make provision for the creation
of a Public Service Commission.
(A. 40/1949).
28th February, 1956.

No. 81.
The following Document is published
with this issue of the Gazette:-
S.R. & 0. No. 6-The Motor Vehicles
and Road Traffic (Pedestrian
Crossings) Regulations. 1956.
(J. 53/1944).
28th February, 1956.

No. 82.

Copies of the Legislative Council
Proceedings and Debates (Hnisard) in
the third Session (1953--154) held on
4th March, 1954. which may be seen
at the Government Office, Kingstown
Library, and at all Revenue Offices and
District Post Offices are published with
this issue of the Gazette.
28th February, 1956.

No. 83.

Applications are invited for the post
of Commissioner for Agriculture. Dom-
inica, Windward Islands. Particulars
of the post are as follows:-

SAINT VlNClICl, TUESDA', 28 FEBRUARY, 196.-(No. 12). 51

Appointment: The appointment will shoulit reach him not later than the 31st
be for a period of three years, ter- March, 1956.
minable by three months notice
on either side. The post is not By Command,
pensionable. Pension eotitribu-
tion will be paid in the event of A. L. SAMUEL,
secondment. Action Government ,qRcretary.
Salary: The salary is at the rate of
$7,200 (1,500) per an ntm. I 28th FE -bra E
Allowances: Transport and subsis- 28th February, 1956.
tence allowance are payable in
accordance with local regulations
in respect of approved travel on DEPARTMENTAL AND
duty. At present a basic allow- OTHER NOTICES.
ance at the rate of $300 per annum
is paid in respect of a motor car TREASURY NOTICE.
plus a mileage allowance of 12c.
Quarters: Free quarters are not pro-
vided. Should Government quar- It is hereby notified for general in-
ters become available at any time formation that Warrants will be issued
rental would be charged at the for the recovery of all taxes. together
rate of 10% of salary or 5% of with the fees and fines due thereon,
the assessed value of the quarters, which at the 31st Day of January, 1956,
whichever is less. Suitable accom- remain unpaid, in accordance with
modation can be obtained at rental Land and House Tax Ordinance Cap.
of about 15% of officer's salary. 194 Section 37.
Passages: Free passages to Dominica
will be provided on first appoint- P. R. ELLS,
ment for the officer, his wife anil Colonial Treasurer.
children, not exceeding five per-
sons in all. Children to be under Treasury Chambers,
18 years of age, unmarried and Kingstown.
dependent on the officer. 11th February, 1956.
Duties: The officer will be respon-
sible for the Administration of
the Agricultural Department and SAINT VINCENT.
for the planning and execution
of the agricultural development By Authority of the Patents Ordinance
programme as well as the gen- (Chapter 155 of the Revised Laws of
eral supervision of all aspects of Saint Vincent, 1926).
the Department's work. He will
be required to perform the statu-
tory functions now vested in the NOTICE is hereby given that an
Agricultural Superintendent, in- application was on the 11th day of Jan-
cluding membership of the Board tiary. 1956, made by FOLKE ROLAND
of Management of the Banana WERNER WERNESKOG of Forserum,
Association and of the Leaf Spot Sweden. for a ptent in respect of an
Control Board. invention for "Multilayer l(i,!s or
Leave: At the end of his term of slabs for consructional purposes and
service the officer will be eligible mnethoIs of wmaninfacturing .ame."
for vacation leave at the rate 2. This invention relates generally to
of one week for each completed multilayer boards or slabs Ifr con-
period of 3 months service. structional prt) oses conplrising two
General: The officer will be liable sheets and an intermediate la'er con-
to all taxation imposed by local sisting of plant material, for example.
enactments. He will also be sub- straw, reed or the like, each straw or the
ject to Colonial Regulations and like of said intermediate laier being
to General Orders and subsidiary arranged at right angles to the said
legislation in force for the time sheets and glued thereto.
being. C. E. A. RAWLE,
Applications giving full particulars Registrar o Patents.
applicants, experience and qualifica- Rgstrar of Patents.
ons, and accompanied by two testi- Patent Office,
I_ z.-. P.., __ .... atent Office,

monials. w c would not be returned, r
should be addressed to the Chief Secj
rotary, Windward Islands, Grenada, and t

Saint Vincent,
28th January, 1956.





It is hereby notifiedl for general information that the Quarterly
Licensing Sessions will be held in the nnderntentionedi P'aisles for the purpose
oC hearing applications from applicants in their respective Parishes for the
granting of Certificates in accordance with tie Liquor L.icn e Ordimnar(. 1948,
at the time and places hereunder.


Time and Place of Session.

St. George & Si. Andrew ... At the Court House, Kingstown, on
Wednesday, 28th March, 1956, at 10.00
o'clock in the forenoon.
Charlotte ... At the Court House, Georgetown, on
Friday, 16th March, 1966, at 11.00
o'clock in the Fore.noon.
St. David ... At the Court House, Chateaubelair, on
Monday 26th Mlarch, 1956, at 11.00
o'clock in the forenoon.
Grenadines 'Bequia) ... At the Court House, at Port Elizabeth, on
Wednesday, 7th March. 1956, at 11.00
o'clock in the forenoon.
Notices of intention to opposethegrant of any Certificates stating in general
terms the grounds of the opposition, must be served upon the applicant and
upon the Magistrate not less than seven days before the day fixed for the
holding of the Licensing Sessions.
Acting Magistrate.

Nime of Applicant.

Occupation. Residence.

St. George &
St. Andrew

Gill Brothers

Benjamin M:ipp
Eleanor Plato
Robert Gillizeau
Edmund Hinds
James Gallie
Samuel Moses

Peter DePonte

Hudson V. Soso

HBo tlers (St. Vin-
cent) Ltd.

Sidny D,.ane
Li-enie Shlter

Okartotte ... Alhert Cis,,
Alby P'iaynv
Ieoiiora Horne

Adolphus Showe

at. David ... f ortley King

(Req uia)

... Ornie Ollivierre

Genera I

Fish Vendor

Com mercial
Man ufact-

Kingst own


Sion Hill



Pen iston

Lodge Village


Kingstown Kingstown

Kingstown Kiingstown
Verlint Vrinon t

Belvidei e
Housewife Byera
1 Village
Shopkeeper1 Byera Hill

Shopkeeper Rose Bank

Seaman Paget Farm

Byera Village

Byera Hill

Rose Bank

Paget Farm

Acting Magistrate.

*Aa0gMATZ'S O1?JqIC,


Situation of




Sellers of Copra are warned that un-
less the copra delivered at the Ginnery
is of first class quality it will be re-
jected. We cannot afford to buy poor
quality copra with low oil content.
Producers of Copra are advised to
pick only fully ripe nuts, to let them
stand for some time before breaking,
and to dry the copra properly,
28th February, 1956.



It is hereby notified for general in-
formation that the prices of Fresh Fish
set out in Statutory Rules and Orders,
No. 14 of 1952 Prices Control (Amend-
ment No. 7) Notice of 4th March, 1952,
are no longer in force as this item is
now decontrolled.
Dated this 27th day of February,
Controller of Supplies.
28th February, 1956.

[ Price: 24 cents. ]

Publications Not Available

Saint Vincent government

v. 89 no. 12

Ordinance No. 2 of 1956



A ,1956, No. 6.


(Gazetted 28th February, 1956.)

1. Short title. These Regulations may be cited as the Motor Vehicles
and Road Traffic. (Pedestrian Crossings) Regulations, 1956.

2. Interpretation. In these Regulations, unless the context otherwise
requires, "crossing" means a pedestrian crossing as described in regulation 3 of
these Regulations.

3. Pedestrian crossing. For the purposes of these Regulations, a
pedestrian crossing is that portion of a road contained between two yellow lines
marked on the surface of the road, such lines running parallel to each other
and leading from one side of such road to the other. The approach to a pedes-
trian crossing is indicated by a traffic sign consisting of a yellow circular board
with the words "Please cross here" printed thereon in black letters.

4. Drivers of, vehicles to stop if pedestrian walking within
crossing. The driver of every vehicle shall stop his vehicle at the first line
of a crossing if there is a pedestrian going from one side of the road to the other
within such crossing.

5. Drivers of vehicles approaching crossing to stop if
necessary. The driver of every vehicle approaching a crossing shall, unless
he can see that there is no pedestrian thereon, proceed at such speed as to be
able, if necessary, to stop before reaching such crossing.

6. Pedestrian to have precedence over vehicular traffic at
crossing. The driver of every vehicle at or approaching a crossing where
traffic is not for the time being controlled by a police constable, shall allow
free and uninterrupted passage to any pedestrian who is within such crossing,
and every such pedestrian shall have precedence over all vehicular traffic at
such crossing.

7. Drivers of vehicles not to stop upon crossing. No driver of
a vehicle shall cause such vehicle or any part thereof to stop upon any crossing,
unless either-
(a) he is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond his control, or
(b) it is necessary for him to stop to avoid an accident.

8. Pedestrians not to remain upon crossing longer than
necessary, No pedestrian shall remain upon any crossing longer than is
necessary for the purpose of passing from one side of the road to the other with
reasonable despatch.

9. Penalty. Any person who commits a breach of any of these Regula-
tions shall be liable ory summary conviction to a fine, not exceeding ten dollars.

Made by the Governor in Council under section 78 of the Motor Vehicles
and Road Traffic Ordinance, 1940 (No. 20 of 1940) this 23rd day of February, 1956.

Clerk of Executive Council.
(J. 52/1944.)

[ Price 8 cents ]





6th Sitting Thursday, 4th March, 1954.

The Honourable Legislative Council mnet at 10 o'clock this mr.orning.

[MR. PRESIDENT in -the Chair]
His Honour 0. R. KELSICK, D.F C., Acting Administrator.

The Honourable E. F. GLASGOW-Acting Crown Attorney,
,, ,, P. R. ELLS-Colonial Tretlea ier,
,. W A. HADLEY-1st Nominated Member,
,, ,, E. A. C. HUGHES-2?nd Nominated Member,
J. A. BAYNES-Member for St. George,
A. C. CYRUS-3rd Nominated Member,
. E. T. JosHUA-Member for North Windward,
,. S. E. SLATER-MeCmber for North Leeward,
H. F. YouNG-Member for South Leeward,
L. C LATHAM-Member for South Windward.

The Honourable R. E. BAYNES-Member for Kingstown,
,. G. H. CHARLEs-Member for Central Windward, (On leave of

,, C. L. TANNIS-Member



The Minutes of the Meeting of 4th
February, having been circulated, were
taken as read and confirmed,

PRESIDENT: Honourable Members, dur-
ing the first reading of the Ram Harry
Paul medical registration Bill I propose
to introduce a certificate e: urgency to
take the Bill through all three stages
The Honourable Crown Attorney laid
the following papers on the Council

for the Grenadines, (Or. leave of

Council Paper No. 7 of 1954: Report
of the Director General of Colo-
nial Audit on the Accounts of the
Colony for the year 1950.

Council Paper No. 8 of 1954: Report
of the Director Genera! of Colo-
nial Audit on the Accounts of the
Colony for the year 1951.
Council Paper No 9 of 1954: Minutes
of Meeting of Finance Committee
of 1st December, 1953.
Council Paper NTo. 10 of 3954: Magis-
trates (Sittings of Courts) Order.

Council Paper No. 11 of 1954: Impor-
tation of Animals (Diseases Pre-
vention) (Grenada) Revocation

following questions standing rn his name:
1. Can Government say who is re-
spionsible for maintaining lig ,ts on
the main highway outside towns
where town boards exist?
2. Is Government aware that places
along the Windwaw Highway
such as the Byera Hill Undermine
which can become 5 source of
danger to pedestrians as well as
vehicular traffic after sunset is
without light after sunset? Will
the alteniion of lighting be drawn
to tie department immediately
that is responsible ior lighting
such spots?
The following replies were given to the
questions asked by the Honourable E. T.
1. Until a contract is signed be-
tween Government anrd the Colo-
nial Development Corporation for
an Electric Lighting Service out-
side the Town of Kingstown and
the small Towns, the mainten-
ance of thi:; Service is being car-
ried out by the Publi: Works De-
The only other place that is lit
is the Byera Tunnel. The Public
Works Department is responsible
for keeping this tunnel lit.
2 It is fully appreciated that it
would be in the interest of 1,ublic
safety to have places like tunnels
lit but the lighting points other
than the Byera Tunnel along the
Windward Highway is dependent
on the provision by the Legisla-
ture of funds to light the points
Government was not aware
-hat the Byera Tunnel was with-
out a light after sunset but :t has
since been learnt thai the Tunnel
was not lit for a shirt time.

Nominated Member asked the following
1. Is the President cognisant of the
fact that persons have entered
upon the lands adjacent to the.
Mamoon Water Supply catchment
area and are clearing the same
for the cultivation ol bananas?
If the answer is in the affirma-
tive, is the President aware that
cultivation in this area will be
detrimental to the health of the
community of Kingstown?
If the answer is in the negative,
Will the President take immediate
steps to ensure that no encroach-
ment whatsoever is made upon
this area?
2. Since the Majorca Water Supply
is unable to cope with the heavy
demands of the area it supplies,
and since it is a fact that the
Water Authority have had to re-
sort. to the Mamoon water in
order to supply parts of Kings-
town, will the President say
whether this water was tested be-
fore distribution to consumers?
If the answer is in the negative,
will the President, as a necessary
precautionary measure, take im-
mediate steps for sending tnis
water to Trinidad for the samb
process of testing, as was done in
the case of the Majorca Supply?
The following replies were given to
'he questions asked by the Honourable
A. C. Cyrus:--
1. The matter of the alleged en-
croachment on the Water Re-
serve Lands of the Mamoon
Water Supply by unauthorised
persons for the purpose of plant-
ing bananas has been brought
to the attention of the Adminis-
2. A Commission of Enquiry, among
whose terms of reference is the
matter of considering the possi-

ble effect such encroachment
will have on the health of the
community has been set up to
investigate tl:is matter. Th'e fi'
inmg. of the Commnis,- 161 wvil Le
reported to the House in due
HON. S. E. SLATER: Mr. President,
Honourable Members,
WHEREAS the population within the
Norti Leewari area comprises over
20,000 persons,
AND WHEREAS for many years this
area has been without a District Med-
ical Officer residing within the area,
AND WHEREAS four persons collapsed
and died without the benefit of medi-
cal attention during last year. This
incident has given rise to much dis-
satisfaction to the people living with-
in the NortbJ Leeward area,
BE IT RESOLVED that Government
take immediate steps to have a doc-
tor who will reside in Barrouallie who
would be within ea.y reach of the
vast majority of people in this area,
District Medical Officer who now
resides at Pembroke be asked to re-
side at Barronallie instead now that
the roads ate in good condition.
HON. S. E. SLATER: Mr. President,
Honourable Members, this has been a
very, very, sore matter for the past ten
years, I should say. Honourable Mem-
bers around this Table are well aware
of the hardships people suffer on the
Leeward coast for the need of medical
attention or assistance. As we all here
know, on the Windward coast there are
about three Doctors, on the Leeward
coast, maybe one part-time Doctor ren-
ders services there; sometimes none at
all. I would like to find out whether
the people in that area are also human
beings as those in the Windward area,
because nobody seems to care about
them. Nothing has been done, although
a Motion was brought to this House

about two years ago, up to now. I
made several suggestions and nothing
has I een done.
year about 4 persons collapsed
in L e Troumraca/Rosehal1 area, they
lied : because there were no doctors with-
in eL..'y reach. That is positively so. Be-
fore they got to Kingstown they died
on their way from Troumaca. They
died on the launch coming from Trou-
mace. because it is not an easy task to
take ua man up on the hills in a stretcher,
carrying him up and down hills and val-
leys and expect, if he has a serious ill-
IPss ike an appendicitis or so, that he
can survive that journey. Therefore. I
am bringing this Motion adain. I am
askifig Government since it ir not possi-
ble to have a doctor living at Chateau-
belair, now that the roads are in good
condition from Kingstown to Barrou-
aliie. to see to it that a Doctor resides
in Barrouallie, which would put him in
easy reach of the people in that area.
I do not think this Motion needs any
repeating, because all around this Table
are well aware of the conditions that
now exist in that area. Honourable
Members I am asking that this Motion
be given full consideration
HoN. J. A. BAYNES:' Mr. Chairman,
Honourable Gentlemen, I rise to sup
port a Motion which in my estimation,
hardly needs any debating, but I shall
merely, in passing, throw bit of Jight
on it. We really have had a system.
not because the problem of doctors has
Become acute within recer t years, but
we have had all through the years a
i:ow-for-now system. Years ago Barrou-
allie was really the spot where a Doctor
was kept on the Leeward Coast. You
!bad Dr. Nichols, Dr. Ford and several of
'hem stationed there. When it was
discovered that .it was necessary to have
f doctor .at the further end of the Lee-
ward district, Chateaubeloir, a doctor
was also placed there. Well in those
days they could lay hands on doctors
where the need for them arose, today it
is a different t thing, but in spite of the

shortage we have actually neglected to
post- that doctor on the Leeward coast
in a central position so that he could
actually reach the furthest end of his
district in record time. This, as I see
it, is a simple matter and since we have
a doctor on the Leeward district it is
merely to remove his place of abode from
Pembroke to Barrouallie, and that I
think hardly requires any additional
financial reimbursement in making the
cl:'an,'.e over. Gentlemen, I ask you to
support this Motion.
HON H. F. YOUNG: Mr. President,
Honourable Members. I am in sympa-
thy with my friend of North Leeward
but I would like to prove to this House
that it would not make sense-that is
-what I am going to prove--to remove
the Doctor and put him at Barrouallie.
I should prefer him to say if there is
to be a priority anc we are short of
Doctors let the Doctor live at Chateau-
bel.air now .until we get another one.
That would be fair enough but to re-
move the Doctor. frc ra Pembroke and
place him at 3orrouaslie is hurting me.
The road is good and the Doctor has a
car. Then there is the question of
Government having to spend money
at a time like this to build another
house which does not 'n.ake sense, be-
cause the terrain anc topographical
set-up at Leeward starts .h-um beyond
Bai rouallle. Living -at B irrouallie would
,ot make it easier goinr, ever the hills
from the Land Settlemnnt- I have for-
gotten nhe name of the 1ill now--ai:d all
thnrot 1--' Cumberland going to Chateau-
belair, t-.hat is one point.
The other l:oint is 20,0GC people do not
live at North Leeward. From a popula-
tion basis this Island is divided into
Pigbt constituercies with a-. average of
8 00 people each. Wlhen you remove
the Doctor to Barrouallie, you are for-
getting Vermont, Camden Park, and
Ouestelles and all these areas would
then be in the same position as his peo-
ple at Leeward.
Gentlemen, I don't see at a time
iike this when you need funds for other

things why we should make this change
over. We have Dr. Munro now from
Kingstown who is going right along the
Coast .and doing ,a fairly good job.
Chateaubelair has a Clinic and a small
hospital. The Honourable Gentleman
is a Member of the Public Works Com-
2nittee and le knows that a few months
ago we sat and decided to let the Dis-
pensers live at Petit Bordel, so that they
could get more room and then the Doc-
tor for Chateaubelair could go into the
Dispensers' quarters. Now he is coming
to tell me to move my Doctor from my
tlace and put him at Barrouallie-and
Io what? In fairness to him I would
say if we have one Doctor instead of
allowing him to live at Pembroke he
coulal be put at Chateaubelair. But let
the Doctors remain on the Estimates
until we know that there is a shortage
of Doctors. Don't tell me to remove
bpim from Pembroke and pu;. him at Bar-
rouallie, that is not going to help
Chz.teaubelair any more. It does not
make sense. If there is one and the Gov-
arnment thinks' it fit to pt.?. him lower
down as we are nearer to Kingstown
that would make sense t" me. Then
eventually when another Doctor comes
-this is what is going to happen-he
is also going to reside at Chateaubelair
o North Leeward will have two Doctors
and South Leeward will have none.

HON. E. A. C. HUGHES: Mr. Presi-lent,
Honourable Members, I am going to
leave it to the Representatives of the
warring districts to fight the; political
end of this battle. Let me perhaps say
a 7,'ord on one aspect of it which I don't
'rink has been too well considered.
I know, as the Honourable Seconder
of the Motion said, that there were Doc-
tors for many years residing at Barrou-
allie. I believe both my father and my
-ncle worked at Barrouallie for some
time. Perhaps it is, as I have heard It
,aid and I hope it is not so as it is my
opinion that I am expressing. that Doc-
tors in those days possessed more of the
human instinct. There were no motor-

cars in those days and they all rode
horses. Today, Gentlemen, you are pay-
ing doctors a salary which is in fact, a
subsidy and the remainder is private
practice. That is one of the main reas-
ons why any doctor is going to resist
being taken from Pembrokc to Barrou-
'.llie, Chateaubelair or anywhere else.
He wants to be in easy reach of Kings-
town. We had an example not so long
ago of a certain Gentleman who spent
most of his time in Kingsto, n and occa-
sionally went to Pembroke, that is the
position. The nearness of Kingstown
1. a big attraction to the medical man
because that is where they tell me the
private e practice is lucrative. Gentle-
men, we can pass motions and we can
legislate and say that you must put the
doctors in Chateaubelair. The laws of
supply and demand are such that today
the der'and for doctors throughout the
world far exceeds the supply, therefore,
each indiviocal doctor is in a strong
position to dictate his termsF and you
can pass a motion or pass legislation
telling him that he has to 21o to Bequia
or to Union Island and if he does not
want to, he will tell you "Thanks very
much, I am going to Malaya or Burma
or Trinidad". You can't force him, he
is in a dictatorial position. I know the
position in North Leeward and in that
I am inclined to agree with the Honour-
able Member for South Leeward that
the position of Chateaubelair and
around must be far worse than the posi-
tion at Barrouallie because of the poor
communication between Barrouallie and
Chateaubelair. The position arises in
tlbe Grenadines-we can't get a doctor
to go there. A couple of years ago, Dr.
Spence, the son of Qur former Colonial
Treasurer, was actually appointed. He
was directed to go to the Grenadines
instead of which he stayed in Trinidad,
he says "I am not going to any Bequia.
you can't make me go I can aet another
job here". The same position arises at
Sandy Bay and Owia, you have poor
communications, a doctor living at
Georgetown looking after an enormous
district, no telephones. And to that ex-

tent it is even worse up there. You
'can't pick up a doctor and tell him he
has got to go and live at Sandy Bay, he
will laugh at you, so let us be realistic
about this business. If we are to try
and keep the doctor, we have got to keep
himr in a position where he will be satis-
fied. At such time when we can get
sufficient doctors then every district
will have its own. At the present mo-
ment I think, quite apart from the fact
that there is no house at Barrouallie,
as far as I know, at the moment, and
therefore, one would have to be con-
structed. We have got to take the posi-
don of the doctor into account. Not
,-ecause I think it is right that we
-hould, but because I think looking at
the thing, practically we have got to.
There is no point in transferring a man
to Sandy Bay or to Chateaubeiir and
his telling you "Well, very well, I am
going away". Let us by all means try
an 1 keep him happy, we have only got.
a few, few enough as it is. Let us keep
them happy because if we don't they
can take the law into their own hands-
they are complete bosses of the present
situation and it is no use fighting
against them. That private practice to
them, "as far as I can see it, is the most
important thing and the doctors will
tell you that Georgetown, Belair, Cedars
and Pembroke are the four districts
where you get some private practice.
You get very little in Chateaubelair and
tne Grenadines ,and for that reason they
are not going to shift. So T am asking
let us please be realistic in :nis matter,
let us not take the chance of losing one
of the very few that we, at present,
have; let us try and wait until the law
of supply and demand brings things a
little mere into our favour when per-
haps we may be able to dictate. At the
present moment we are on the receiv-
ing end.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Honourable Pres-
ident, Honourable Members, I feel that
I should say a few words in this debate
so much so as I heard remarks made
by the Second Nominated Member and
the Honourable Member for St. George

that at one time there were two doctors
on the Leeward Coast but now you hard-
ly have one. I understand Honourable
Members around 1his Table, into season
and out of season, to say h;: t this coun-
try h. s no nmonv to do Ecsential ser-
vices vhen they arise and that unpro-
ductive schemes .uc;- as medicine for
the people's health: fa '.s under that head.
I shall like to poi.,.t out these two
facts: one, doctor,; h yve full dictatorial
powers to tell us tha, they are not going
to stay here when th(v can go to Malaya
and Trinidad. W-, co the other hand,
know very well that when- doctors leave
here to be trained in the form of schol-
arship-winners we s-.y something else.
We say that we can'tt direct men with
professions and sch larships to come
back here to serve., We find ourselves
now, Gentlemen, between Scylla and
Charybdis. The one is saying that med-
ical men are so dictatorial that they can
tell you "if you tell me to go there I
leave and go to Malaya and Trinidad";
on the other hand they are telling us--
in this very Hdnourable House I heard
the discussion-that if doctors got
scholarships you can't tell them where
to serve, that they have the right to go
to whatsoever part of the world they
like. Well we find ourselves on the one
hand between Scylla and Charybdis.
On the other hand, I say, that the diffi-
culty created on the Leeward coast hav-
ing a doctor now to be removed frorna
one point to the other, conveniencing
one end to the detriment of the other,
is not so nice, but I say this- when we
harp here and try to make apology for
the British Government where we are
under Treasury control to say, for vital
essential services for the people as this
Motion purports, that 20,,000 people onI
the Leeward coast have no medical aid,
which is a grave error in any adminis-
trition, we are in direct rule from the
Colonial Office and I .think by now we
as Councillors, interested in the people's
health, from the time we were returned
here, should have seen to it in accord-
ance with the statement of the Honour-

able Member for St. Geo-ge, that the
vital health of the people were secured
by getting back those doctors there.
I really cannot cast a vote where it
was clearly expressed hece that they
a,'e two warring warlords of the Lee-
w'ard Coast-warring for what? Telling
us on the one hand that the people died
on one pa-:t of the coast for medical
attendance and telling us on the other
hand that from Barrouallie go right
bfck to Lowmans will be without medi-
cal -aid and so you spoil your nose to
save your face. I think in'the not too
distant future the remedy is that we
should only tell .the Colonial Office we
want so many medical men, since they.
c.aim to appoint men. We see men just
rome in the country we do not know
where they come from. We say we are
Councillors here but they just come in
arld .take their place, we direct nothing
and when these problems arise we lead
the people to believe that we have so
much say. I am saying therefore, that
the remedy in this matter is .to draw up
::, document to the Colonial Office. We
have on this Agenda here, called "Leg-
islative Council Order Paper". "Petitions"
and if we are fair, apart from sliding
politics, we will draw up their demands
for vital needs. As far as medicine is
concerned no one can tell you that med-
icine is not a vital need i.n any commu-
nity-service, medical services-and of
course, the way out here is to apologise
as we often hear in this Honourable
House:"this Government h's no money,
we are Treasury controlled" and this
;and that; on the other hand we hear
now that we are trying to rob Peter to
npy Paul. Be that as it majr, I say
that I cannot give one consent for one
set of people and give another consent
on the other hand for the same peo-
ple. It means that the way out of
this is fairly and squarely, apart from
the game of politics just at hand now
--the special brand-that we in this
Ho0.pe should see to it that this matter
of medical mei. be fairly and squarely
balanced for the good of the people

on the Leeward coast, and in the not
too distant future, a medical officer be
appointed one at one end of the Lee-
ward coast and the usual medical offi-
cer that used to be appointed, as the
Honourable Member said, be restored
so that the life and health of the peo-
ple might be adequately provided for
and we rhay call ourselves a Council
arsembled here.
HON. A. C. CYRus: Honourable Pres-
ident, Honourable Members, I just want
to make one short point on this debate.
I heard quite a lot of complaints from
the people at North Leeward. A very
sad state of affairs does exist in North
Leeward, a state of affairs that calls
for the sympathy not only of this House
but the entire Colony, but as previous
Members said there is no poi-nt in remov-
ing one doctor putting him there and
creating the same state al. the other
end. What I think is a slight solution
is the fact that for first reading here
on this Order Paper is the Ram Harry
Paul Medical Registration Bill. It
seems to me, without going into this
thing very closely, that it is likely that
you will be having another doctor here
in a short space of time and if I were
the Honourable Member for North Lee-
ward what I would have done instead
of debating this Motion this morning
is to serve a notice on Government ask-
ing that the next Medical Officer who
arrives here be sent down there. In
the absence of that I should leave mat-
ters just as they are. I say that just
for the consideration of the Honourable
HON. S. E. SLATER: Mr. President,
Honourable Members, I have listened to
the warring councillors but I would like
to inform Members around this Table
here that I am not fighting for dollars
and cents.. This is the people's busi-
ness. That is why I brought it here. It
is nothing political at all i was born
in Barrouallie, I lived there until I was
about 18 years old. As the Second Nom-
inated Member said his father and his
uncle served there, they also had an

Irish man Dr. Massey and quite a few
other doctors living in Barrouallie.
After they had doctors in Chateaubelair
also. Well, why I stated that the doctor
instead of living at Pembroke should
reside at Barrouallie is because when a
doctor can leave Kingstown in 15 min-
utes and reach to Layou and attend to
the people there it is impossible to get
anyone from Chaiteaubelair or Trouma-
ca within 4 hours to the Colonial Hos-
pital or within reach of a doctor, and
if the Honourable Member for South
Leeward, with all nis esnri? de corps,
would say that the people at Chateau-
belair or Barrouallie are not as good as
the people at Layou then he is being
quite unjust for a issue. It is not an
issue, this is the people's business and I
would like to inform him that when you
can't do good don's do bad.
I know what it is down at the north-
ern end because I live there myself.
I have seen people being brought in
stretchers from up the hills or moun-
tains or what you might call them to
the hospital or tV-e dispensary at Cha-
teaubelair. Whom do you find there?
A dispenser and a nurse. What can
can they do? They might issue a dose
of salts, yes. They can't diagnose any-
thing. They send that person back
home and in the night some old lady
gets there and rubs him from toe to
crown and the result is that next morn-
ing he might have a ruptured appendi-
citis or something of the sort and there
he is-dead.
I would like to find but why no Gov-
ernment Officer at all would like to go
down to the Leeward end? Even Pub
lic Works who are suppose to handle
roads are scared to go down there even
to look at the roads. So those people-
what are they? Are they animals?
Well, if I were the people and hearing
Members of Council saying a doctor
should not be at Barrouallie, a doctor
should be at Pembroke, I should not
like it at all. With all respect to a
doctor or his private practice, I don't
think we go out to try and induce a

doctor to come here for private practice
when we have made all arrangements
for his salary. I am not saying that
we can compel a doctor, I am asking
that we see to it that we get medical aid
there, and I am sure that no doctor is
going to refuse going to Barrouallie be-
cause Barrouallie is not as far as from
here to Cedars. If -a doctor at Cedars
can open private practice in Kings-
town, so can the doctor at Barrouallie
open private practice in Kingstown, so
there is no hitch about it at all. That
is why I state Barrouallie particularly
because a doctor will be able to travel
from Kingstown to Barrouallie in 20
minutes and that is no time to talk of.
When you go further on you have Spring
Village, Coulls Hill, Troumaca, Rose Hall
and Chateaubelair, beyond you .have
Owia and Fancy where they must travel
another four hours by boat to get to
Chateaubelair to see a doctor. Well
from Chateaubelair to Kingstown is
four again that is eight hours. Can
anybody who is really suffering, by any
stretch of the imagination, hold out un-
til they get to Kingstown to see a doctor?
I .m asking whether you like it or not
to support it. It is not my business it
is the people's business, and if you don't
want to support it it is useless you want-
ing to run back for Council because I
don't think people would bother with
MEMBERS: [Laughter and muttering.]
PRESIDENT: There is a certain deco-
rum to be preserved in the Council
Chamber. I shall be grateful if all Mem-
bers would realise that.
HON. S. E. SLATER: Honourable Pres-
ident, the only time you c..n give vent
to your feelings is round the Council
Table and you can even slap a fellow
if he annoys you.
Motion put to the vote and tied.
PRESIDENT: The Honourable Presi-
dent will have to cast his vote against
the Motion. The Motion is therefore

WHEREEAS general discontent is rife
in this Colony especially among the
poorer parents whose ecoJnomic posi-
tion cannot afford them to .comply
immediately with the Order supposed
to be made by the Executive Council
that the pupils of the Government
Secondary Schools have uniforms
which are aduciged by chcrm to be out
opf their reach at the present time;
BE IT RESOLVED that tnis order be
optional until parents can afford in
the main to supply their children
with uniforms before this Order be
optional period should be extended
for at least one year.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Honourable Mem-
bers, it is clear that in going around this
country I have been harrassed, as being
a Member of Executive, that Orders were
made to inconvenience the poorer peo-
ple of this Colony. To speak truth some-
times things are done.notwithstanding
that I am a Member of the Executive
Council, without my knowledge, without
m-y consent or my volition, therefore,*
then, they do not know that. The fact
re:r.-ins therefore that since the people
have complained and since you have
noticed in the local press P', regular -n-
tervals letters appearing thera fr.)m
some poor parents who arn perhaps
afraid to sign their name, in the tlg,
but rather sign pro bono vublica the
fact remains, Honourable Members, that
*vfter we have a state of affairs in a
country where we have teachers now
who are ready and willing to put out the
children, because I have had my experi-
ence. I have had my. experience in
another place where children have been
accused of being coarse of speech and
all kinds of things and threatened expul-
sion from the Grammar schools. It is
now necessary for me to only hope for
us not to put the power in masters' and
mistresses' hands where uniforms come
up to make that a pretext to deprive

some poor children of their only chance
of getting an education. Therefore,
having heard the complaint and you
Honourable Gentlemen may have known
and seen for yourselves which way the
wind is blowing, we are rot against
those who can afford to have six blazers
and a dozen flannel pants from going
ahead, but we are saying this: that
we are not going to allow an Order to
become compulsory where the masters
can say "you go back home you are not
befitting a Grammar School". That
would Le hard, that would be wreaking
hardship on the people of the land.
What we are more interested in is the
education of our children.-"Render
your hearts and not your garments".
But if we are in a position as we see
how some people have it, well then it is
unnecessary to bring a Motion of the
Kind here, but if we know that some of
the poorer parents of this country, in-
cluding myself, just manage to scrape
through a fee for our children to get
some education at all then we know it
is quite necessary; it is necessary too
that the ambitious ones, though poor,
may continue to urge their parents to
put up month after month until this
year should have arrived, and they
won't even wait until a year because
none is so po-:- that they would not
have an ambition to patronise the rich
man's sons as we always ape him here.
We will do the same thing even with
our last farthing even if we eat a little
less to provide these special clothes-
white shirts, green blazers, and the grey
flannel pants-which will cost money.
And of course, some of the parents as
I told you are just ekeing out a fee to
keep the children in the schools and I
do not see that this even needs a de-
bate. I am satisfied that this is in the
public interest and will be supported.
HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. President,
Honourable Members, I have been read-
ing this Motion and its a reasonable
one. I happen to live in the country
myself, where a good many children
travel every day in buses tp come to
town. Last term they had to prepare

their little clothing when it was a bol-
oured shirt and a col6ured pants, and
to my way of thinking if the emphasis
is laid on educating our children I be-
lieve it would be very hard for ,their
poor parents to change at so quick a
time. It takes sometimes a year or
six months before a shirt is worn. Qut
and it is a reasonable affair to go into
stages so that maybe when they have
to buy again, the khaki is a local cloth,
then they can buy the khaki or white
shirt but to tell them to do it next term
would really create a hardship. One
mother came to me, the father is in
Trinidad, he had sent clothing already
for this boy and she would be well set
back if she had to provide a new set
for him.

The whole purpose, if vwe want our
children to be educated is that we must
stop all these things. In one breath
we say compulsory education, and I
have said even educate them under a
thrash roof. It has reached now where
the peasant is thinking along the lines
of education and most of the time
sacrifices himself for his children to
get some. Let us forget the garment,
let us forget the style and flash, let us
go forward and think more of what
the child is getting. I support this Mo-
tion wholeheartedly.

HoN. L. C. LATHAM: Mr President,
Honourable Members, I stand up here
against this motion. The Executive
Council is the House that governs the
policy of this island. The Mover of
this Motion is .a Member of the Execu-
tive Body and this rule or this policy
was made by that Executive Body and
I do not see the reason why it .should
come down to the Legislative Council
as a Motion. It seems to me that the
Mover of this Motion is 3ust contra-
dicting himself. He is a Member of
the Executive Council and they made
that order there and now he is bring-
ing it back here to the Legislative
Council as a Motion.

Now we have the Girls' High School
and the Grammar School. We have
noticed that tlhe Girls' High School
have uniforms. Any stranger who comes
to this island can always distinguish
the girls from the High School by their
uniforms, but the boys from the second-
ary school cannot be distinguished from
the elementary schools. All over the
civilised world those children who attend
secondary schools wear uniforms and I
think that they should have uniforms
to distinguish them from the children
from the primary schools. I stand
against this Motion.
HoN. E. A. C. HUGHES: Mr. President,
Honourable Members, the last Honour-
able Speaker is' perfectly correct in that
this is a matter that falls within the
province of the Executive Council and.
therefore, the mere fact that this Mo-
tion is passed does not mean that it will
be accepted by the Executive Council.
Nevertheless, there is nothing to pre-
vent Council stating its views on the
matter and if this Council, by passing
such a Motion, states its views to the
Executive Council there is nothing con-
stitutionally wrong or wrong in any
other way with it.
Now this is a point. As far as I see
it, the Honourable Mover does not seem
to object to the principle of uniforms
for the school. At least that is what I
father from reading the Motion and
from listening to him. He just seems
to think that there should be a transi-
tion period during which time the poorer
parents could take such steps as may be
necessary to see that their children use
out their existing stocks of clothes and
then convert to the new uniforms with-
in a certain time. Well I personally see
nothing wrong with that, but I should
like the Honourable Mover to be more
specific when he uses the words "at least
onr year". I notice him smiling, per-
haps he thought that would escape the
attention of the Members, but if we are
oitv'v to accept the principle for uni-
forms we have got to make some specific
date at which that, will come into effect.

I am not going to make that date, I am
going to ask the Honourable Mover to
do it because it's his Motion. If you
just say "at least one year" and leave
t to the parents there will be some pa-
rents who decide never to convert to
the new state of things. T am all in
favour of having uniforms for the sec-
ondary schools. It's being done .all
over the world so far as I know. I have
never known within these parts or
within my limited travels anywhere
where the secondary school boys do not
wear a distinctive uniform, but I quite
agree also that it might be wise out of
sympathy for certain of the poorer pa-
rents to postpone this for a certain speci-
fic time and I leave it to the Honourable
Mover to state at whatever time he sees
fit to do to state what date he would
suggest would be fitting for the intro-
duction of this new system.
dent, Honourable Members. this Motion
presupposes the existence of an Order
of the Governor in Council. I just
wish to say that the Governor in Coun-
cil has not, in fact, made an Order on
the question of uniforms to be worn
by persons attending secondary schools.
Such an Order may, in due course, be
made but in point of fact it is only at
the moment under consideration. That
is all I wish to say.
HON. E. T. JosHUA : In satisfaction
of the Honourasbe Second Nominated
Member, I want to make an amendment
to the last resolve of the Motion, that
part. of the Motion which says:-
"BE IT RESOLVED that this optional
period should be extended for at least
one year."
take out the words "at" and "least" and
put "a" or "one" year. Make it specific
and precise.
HoN. E. A. C. HUGHES: If you say 'one
year' we take it that it is from the 4th.
of March to the 4th March which will
be the middle of a term, we will have to
make it from the beginning of a school

HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Yes, the beginning
of the 1955 school year. The beginning
of the next school year.
PRESIDENT: Does anyone second th
HON. H. F. YOUNG: I beg- to second(
the amendment.
Proposed amendment put to the votP
and carried.
HON. E T. JOSHUA: Mr. President
Honourable Members, since we are
equal around this Table even in bulk,
it is necessary that I make an observa-
tion in summing up some of the sub-
stance of this debate. Now the other
islands of my country are going for-
ward and we must go forward too. I
never understood that we would have
had members around this Table who
doesn't even know what Executive and
Legislative Councils mean, but, be that
as it may, I shall try to pardon ignor-
ance as much as possible and go ahead
i[ summing these points together. The
fac. remains that you are telling us
here in this Honourable House that the
Government exists as a policy forming
Body in the Executive Council and you
still insist in telling me ..
PRESIDENT: On a point of order, will
the Honourable Member please confine
his remarks' to the Motion.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: It is the debate.
That was brought up in the debate
Honourable President. You should have
ruled it out then.
PRESIDENT: May I point out that the
Honourable Crown Attorney .....
HON. E.' T. JOSHUA: No, no, no .....
PRESIDENT: merely stated that there
was no decision taken in Executive Coun-
cil to introduce, at this present time, a
uniform for the Grammar School and
that the question is now under consider-
ation by the Executive Council.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Honourable Pres-
ident, I have not attacked the remarks
of the Honourable Crown Attorney, not
in the least. If he has said so yell then

g you did not call the Honourable Mem-
g ber for South Windward on a point of
order. There is no point of order before
e this Honourable House. The Honour-
able Member for South Windward clear-
d ly and specifically stated thal since the
Honourable Member for North Windward
vwas a Member of the Executive Council
e and he perceives that this was an Order,
Honourable President, that the Honour-
able Mover of the Motion had no right
to bring it here because of the dictato-
rial powers vested in the Executive Coun-
cil of the country. This Legislative
Council is powerless to move a Motion
on any Order of the Executive Council
-that is the substance of his statement.
And if the Motion itself hted been read
or the English understood you would
have got this: "supposed to have been
:iade by the Executive Council". It did
n:ot say it made it at all, so therefore,
',onourable President, I rm in order.
Then the Crown Attorney merely gets
up and states before this Honourable
House that it is in the making. A notice
received, and I do not think I have it
here on me, as a Parent, stating that it
was an Order made by the Executive
Council. An Order, as a Parent, is what
I received and therefore, I made the
remark that I knew nothing; at all -here
about that Order and that might have
been because I was absent. But this
Motion needed no debate. Well, of
course, let us pardon the Honourable
Member for South Windwaid.
The Honourable Second Nominated
Member, although he is quite tactful,
with one breath tried to say that he was
supporting an Order by t!bc Executive
Council .and with another breath he said
he did not see any harm in the Motion.
No harm when any Order of Her Majesty
the Queen tends to reek hardships on
her subjects. That Order can be recall-
Motion as amended put to the vote
and carried. '
How. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. President,
Honourable Members,

WHEREAS it is suggested as Gov-
ernment's policy, that local trade
should be encouraged so that local
traders not only maintained their
economy but that there should be an
impetus to produce;
AND WHEREAS sweet potatoes, yams
and plantains and pigeon peas in the
main are regarded as perishable goods
and owing to a war time measure leg-
islation was made to consider export
duty which still remains;
AND WHEREAS St. Vincent is one of
the islands still collecting duty on
such types of export;
BE IT RESOLVED that Government
see it advisable to rescind the export
duty on such perishable goods for
HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: I do not know,
but far back as my knowledge serves, be-
fore the last war, export dut-, as I know
and we all know in this colony, was some-
thing unknown. It happens that from
the last war the greater portion of it or
at least nearly the whole of it was spent
out of this Colony by me. 1 came back
here to find that there are many things
that existed and still exist that reek some
sort of hardship on the people, but they
bore these things and carried them out
passively until now.
We calculate certain inties on such
things as potatoes, for rnstarce. which
most of us feel reap a harvest in the
island of Trinidad, but we have know-
ledge now that that is not so. Potatoes
are being calculated at say, 180 lbs. for
3 cents and therefore when we get $5.40
we calculate the duty: of the local gov-
ernment on that amount of $5.40. Now
we know as a fact that potatoes are even
fetching less abroad now than they fetch
at home because potatoes are coming
N-ithout this duty from Tobago, Barba-
dos etc. to Trinidad. It is also true to
say that no such duty is being collected
in most of the other islands. Some have
citrus fruits, as limes, oranges and grape-
fruit as their industry, while we have
potatoes, yams and plantains as the lo-

cal trade of this country-a contrast. I
tried to investigate this thing and found
that St. Vincent was still lingering with
a war-time measure and a tax on these
perishable goods. You may look at
pigeon peas and say that that can last
but after a while pigeon peas begin to
get holes and cannot be made even into
We know for a fact that these little
things we are asking here in the Motion.
-the perishable goods-may be aston-
ishing, now it appears to you in a Motion
that duty is still collected on them. It
is true that we must raise taxes, it is
true that tax is necessary to support a
state, but Gentlemen, we should raise
taxes honestly and rightly. We should,
of course, get taxes to supi ort school
programmes which we are asking for.
.But these ways of raising these taxes,
by lingering a measure on ce-tain perish-
able goods because we just see this man
ship some potatoes and may be reaping
a harvest abroad in those commodities
but we never look to see when his trade
declines-he goes right dw.n-and a
counterbalancing and an ,-vcrage tal-kn
of his losses in going to sea and the
hazards of his life.
That is not so much the point, Gen-
tlemen, the point at issue is whether
we are going to be the only unit cr at
least the only unit in the West Irdies
who would set a pace and still continue
to take these little taxes, export c:.uty
taxes, when we always tell the people
they should be encourage: to produce
more food and more local trade to assist
the economy so that they can live and
cn-e get through, whatever is their ven-
ture. Trading as hucksters or traffick-
ers or what you call them, their part is
to .ake the sea to make a living. They
go about and buy these things from
here; they are local things, 'potatoes
grown from the earth here; they are not
grown on some of India's soil or some
Erglish soil even, but on West Indian
soil in St. Vincent, they produce these
potatoes and when you get them you do
not consider that when they are shipped

abroad and the venture falls the tax is
collected here already. They felt this
thing for a long time in this colony, as
'ar as I know, but nothing was done
until now a Motion is brought. I am
asking this House to support this Motion,
since I know and since most of us know
that these things reek hardships, espec-
*ally in the time when there is a slump;
especially when no price is fetched for
such commodities. Then and only then
"ou find that that trader, all he might
have gained for the first few months
of the year is lost again in this declining
period. We should therefore not take
that advantage still of him of contin-
uing this measure of collecting on
perishable goods.
Pigeon peas may be regarded by you
as non-perishable but that is not so.
That pea seems to spoil earlier than
any other pea. Of course there is a
planter around this Table ,here. As
soon as they begin to get holes they
can not even be used as plants. They
may be able to be boiled but some float
and you lose all your peas so then I
regard it too as perishable I do not
know what the First Nominated Member
of this House would think of my making
such a statement as far as pigeon peas
is concerned. Gentlemen. I commend
the Motion to your care.
HON. S. E. SLATER: Mr. President, Hon-
ourable Members, I rise in support of
this Motion. As this House would know
from the inception of this Council, we
have gone into the question of lots of
perishable goods and non-perishable
goods for the people of this island who
have to ship goods outside the Colony.
I think we took off what you call the
taking-away-business from the huck-
sters who ship po.tatoes--5 bags, 2 to
go and 3 to stay and all the rest of it.
Secondly, I believe the Member for St.
George was able to get this Government
to take off 2 cents or something of the
sort from the duty. I don't know if it
has been approved yet but I am sure
that it went in on behalf of the people
to alleviate the hardships that they in-

cur with their shipments. I can assure
this House that speculators going from
here to Trinidad with sweet potatoes
especially can save maybe 5 out of 10
bags because from the hect from the
boat sometimes half are spoilt. I do
know that this Government has a way of
collecting the duty on the price they
obtain in Trinidad. I also believe that.
Right now there are hundreds of a res
of potatoes to be dug and the people
have not dug them because the price
is only about $3.00 and 1G/- per bag.
When you collect from thdm at maybe
$15.00 per bag in Trinidad, you are steal-
ing from the people. I believe that
something must be done in these parts
because no matter how much we try to
do or what we might bring up no cogni-
sance is being taken of it. This is being
pushed here and that is shuttled there
and all that sort of thing.
I don't know, it is an invitation to mal-
practice, that is, encouraging the island
to go West when it should go North and
I think the time is now when this Gov-
ernment should get together if they
call themselves a. Body ard decide the
pros and cons and the things that are
right on behalf of the people, because
it is not fair to extract from a man
what he hasn't got. I think we can
look into this Motion and adjust as
much as we can. I also do know that
lots of the things we are paying for
here should have been stopped long ago.
It was only brought in because of war
measures and as you all know once you
are on to the Government bandwaggon
you can never jump off. So it is with
ta-ves, once it is instituted you can never
rub it off again. If youigo to Grenada,
they charge a 4d. and 2d. to walk on the
pier and things of the sort. That was
brought in during the war and lots of
other things get tagged on like that.
A lot was taken off and a lot still re-
mains because they think they can col-
lect more revenue. The thing is that
the revenue we collect here is from one
source of the people, it just comes from
one hand goes from the Treasury and

pays Income Tax or something else.
There is only a little money that circu-
lates in the island and all these duties
make it more and more nard for the
people to live here. I believe the Gen-
tlemen here will be able to suggest,
especially the Heads of Government
some compromise because it is a neces-
sary thing.
ident, Honourable Members, it is quite
true that this tax was introduced as a
war-time measure and it has been con-
tinued as an economic measure. I
understand that the duty on perisable
goods is not confined to St. Vincent
alone. There are other islands within
the Windward Islands that impose ex-
port duty on perishable goods. In
debating this Motion, I think Honour-
able Members should bear in mind that
any measure which is proposed whereby
the revenue of the Colony is decreased
would be regarded most seriously by
H.M. Treasury. In commenting on the
1954 estimates the Secretary of State has
asked that the whole revenue structure
of St. Vincent be reviewed. That review,
in my opinion is long overdue. By piece-
meal amendments to various tax laws
and Bye-Tax laws-I include both di-
rect and indirect taxation-the ratio
between those two has become complete-
ly obscured and you have no longer a
structure that you can call a structure
for the collection of revenue. My feel-
ings are that a review should be under-
taken early, and when I say early I mean
before June of this year, and the review
will undoubtedly bring relief in some
direction and increases in others. I
don't think the chance of success of a
single Motion such as this for a reduc-
tion of revenue would stand an earthly
chance such as it is, whereas if it were
combined in a general review of the
position whereby certain increases or
n.diustments were made it would stand
a very much better chance.
HON. J. A. BAYNES: Mr. President, Hon-
ourable Members, I rise to throw a little
more light on this Motion. I have al-

ways contended, during the time I have
been put here by the people I represent,
that a tax on perishable goods in my
estimation was not a just tax, but I be-
lieve every representative of the people
around this Table knows the position of
St. Vincent with regard to finance. A
lot of these measures of taxation are not
only reeking hardship on the people but
people can hardly afford to measure up
against them. Even sometimes when
the speculators are about preparing
their documents to have their load
shipped the money which they use is
borrowed from around town, but in
spite of all that, I believe that if we sit
around this Table as Representatives of
the people we. should go out to examine
carefully how revenue is actually acquir-
ed in St. Vincent. In times like these
when everybody is demanding more, it
i .-ound conmonsense that it must re-
quire more revenue to cope with the add-
ed demands of the people.
I was asked by a friend from the coun-
try about two months ago to ship two
bags of mixed vegetables to Curacao and
when I sent to have the duty paid I dis-
covered that the duty charged on those
two bags of mixed vegetables was check-
ed st $9.00 per bag at the Customs. I
argued with the Customs Officer over the
telephone and he said that there was
nothing he could do as ttiere was a
standing order on it so I decided the
following Monday morning to go in to
the Treasurer and discuss the matter.
When I went I discovered that potatoes
had a real standard price of 6c. per lb.
A-hich made it approximately $9.00 per
bag for potatoes at the point of shipping.
I told him that I did not believe he was
aware that the price of potatoes present-
ly was $3.00 per bag locally and to charge
$9.00 per bag for duty was really exorbi-
tant. As a consequence, the Treasurer
said "Mr. Baynes, you know our finan-
cial position and that revenue has got
to be raised somewhere or other". I said
"Yes, but not along this line". The
Chief Customs Officer, Mr. Cox, was call-
ed' in and as a consequence the price of

potatoes was reduced to 4c. per lb. in-
stead of 6c. I really don't believe either
that 4c. per lb. is also a feasible approach
to the problem because in no measure,
irrespective of what the price can be at
Trinidad, should potatoes here be priced
at more than $3.00 per oag so that
whether the price goes up or down you
remain there standard at ,3.00 per Dag.
That is not all. We have been prac-
tising a measure for the post 'ten years
where we go out endeavouring to charge
duty on the price speculator acquires
in Trinidad which I think is very unfair.
In .no country in the world can you
charge duty on the price at the point
of delivery. That is never done, it is
not a universal practice and so it should
oe discontinued. If the same thing was
done in British Guiana we couldn't eat
rice here and if the same thing was done
in Canada we couldn't eat salt fish. The
actual duty charged in any country is
based on the price at the point of ship-
ping. That is what I( feel wants chang-
ing here.
This is not a matter that can be ad-
justed merely by bringing a Motion here,
this is a matter which, in my view,
should be discussed by the Trade and
Production Committee so that you can
ge' their recommendation to be handed
to the Treasurer and may be used at
some consequent time of revision of duty
as ) guide. We needn't raise Motions of
this type and hope to just chop off here
apnd chop off there when you have al-
ready gone to your Budget Session and
made an estimate of what you are likely
to collect in this current year. As a con-
requence I feel it is merely adding head-
aches on matters that have already been
settled and again I should like to add
that I should like to see this matter
more thoroughly threshed out than by
merely bringing a Motion around this
Table. I am suggesting that this mat-
ter be handed to the Trade and Produc-
tion Committee so that a worthwhile
compromise may be arrived at.
HoN. A. C. CYRUS: Mr. President, Hon-
ourable Members, at the risk of earning
the displeasure of someone or many

people, I rise to speak on this Motion.
! could not agree more with the Honour-
able Member for Saint George than on
this occasion. The Honourable Mover
of this' Motion, like myself, was not
here during the Budget Sesdion but he
knows as well as I what Budget Session
means. He knows that all these things
were estimated and he knows the diffi-
culties which the authorities will expe-
rience if this Motion is passed and
adjustments have to be made right
away. I am one of those persons who
fee] that taxation is far too heavy and
th-at it is time that something be done
and some sort of Committee appointed
to consider adjustments. In this parti-
cular instance, I. do not see how this
thing can be effective right away, be-
cause, as the Honourable Mover said,
long ago such things were not taxed,
long ago we never had quite a few of
'he social services which we enjoy today.
We never had as much. Today every
Member of this House is chlmouring for
more schools.-More schools mean more
teachers. Every Member of this House
knows the situation of the hospital
which has to extended all the time-
extending the hospital means more beds.
more nurses and all those things entail
money. How do we get money? We get
a g'ant-in-aid from Her Majesty's Treas-
ury it is true, but we know too well how
limited ,that amount is. In my opinion,
it ought to be more but at the moment
if we say that school teachers should
receive better salaries as they are clam-
ouring for, they should be given the
same consideration as Members of the
Civil Service, and if we say that all
these services must be maintained how
on the other hand is it reasonable to
say "Take this little amount of money
that is already estimated upon" and
still have those services carried on for
the balance of the year9 T don't see
that it is possible at all unless you have
some sort of Fairy Godmother on whom
to call to get some money and I don't
know of such a person.
Like the Honourable Member for St.
George, I think that even apart from

handing this matter over to the Trade
an,: Production Committee that this
matter can be discussed by Finance Com-
mittee. There is a case for reduction
as pointed out by the Honourable Mem-
ber for St. George and these things
need to be discussed in Committees so
that an adjustment could be made. I
do not see how it can work to have any-
thing done immediately on this, and I
think that my colleagues can see the
point. They themselves passed the es-
tinmates and they know the difficulties
it is going to reek on the authorities
to find the money to carry out the ser-
vices except you are prepared to close
some of your schools or lay off some of
your teachers or something of the sort.
Until you get together and use your
ideas to see how this money could be
raised or what can be done, I don't see
tha, this is a Motion which anyone of
us should vote for at the moment. I
suggest that the revision be made later
when we are going through the esti-

HON. H. F. YOUNG : Mr President,
Honourable Members, I have listened
to my friend on the right and this is
one time when I feel that I can counter-
balance some of his statements.
We sat in Finance Committee a few
weeks ago only to learn from the Hon-
ourable Treasurer that from the esti-
mates we had a surplus of $45,000 for
January. You see when you estimate
you can be under or over and what we
do not spend go to Deferred Mainten-
ance. But to get back to the point, I
lived in Trinidad and I actually bought
stuff from speculators. Gentlemen,
this is an agricultural country and we
are speaking about peri b able goods.
The only Marketing Body' t at you have
in St. Vincent are the speculators. Peo-
ple plant potatoes with the ??le purpose
of selling to the Trinidad speculators.
Naturally the man keeps so much for
his home, for the local market. I have
seen those men after taking that potato
to Trinidad sell them for a. dollar after

paying all expenses. Because of the
fact that they were perishable they were
forced to sell them at w-lIever pricr
they could get.
Point No. 2. Now that the price of
cotton has declined the peasant has
planted more potatoes. You are talking
about a little revenue-I would not sup-
port anything big-here that they might
lose from potato, we will gain it from the
incentive of production. We will gain
it from the speculators being able to
make a little more, who will then be able
to pay the peasants a little tetterprice,
and their spending power woulc be more.
The whole economy of our peasants
especially, rest on planting more sweet
potatoes and when those speculators go
oul. of business-I have seen some of
them go out of business-new fellows
with a few dollars come up. Govern-
mnt has not reached to the stage where
they have formed a central marketing
organisation and so the speculator is
the real marketing organisation for St.
Vin-cent. When he purchases sweet
potatoes and plantains ar.d pays the
duty on the price he expects to get in
Trinidad, the Tobago potatoes come in,
the Barbados potatoes come in and be-
ing perishable goods he Las to get
home within a given time. he has to
e11ll them cheaper than lie actually
bought them for. So on this particu-
la- point, I know that we must have
revenue and I think the Mover said
s;o, the island would benefit if this tax
was taken off potatoes. The potatoes
are now being grown on such large
scales that the peasants can hardly sell
them because the price is very low, never-
theless, if he does not dig them before
April spring would come in and they
would spoil, so he is forced) to dig them
now and get whatever price he can. And
when yc :. chargee him at the rate of $6.00
and $9.00 for duty and he only gets $4.00
in Trinidad, you are actually robbing
him. Or are you going to leave the
peasants with the potatoes to spoil for
a paltry 30c.? When they get that
money they go and spend it in the

stores and it still goes back in taxes-
indirect taxation. You have nothing
to lose and I speak as ar. experienced.
man who speculated, who ian a green-
grocer's in Trinidad, wh'o saw people
from St. Vincent come an' lose money
on potatoes. It is unlike peanuts.
star':h or ever animals be. ause sweet
por ces even spoil on the voyage. Cen--
tlen:on, do not think of the few ceixs.
think of the hundreds of people ba-ck
,there v:1ho woul'h get these cents and b';y
a little more oil and a little more flour
and you eventually get back your taxa-
HON. E. A. C. HcHrES: Mr. Presi-
dent Honourable Members, I am w'oing
to be very brief, sir. -notice that you
h?.ve been extremely generous in allow-
ing this Motion to be debated at all be-
cause it is completely out of order. A
Motion seeking to remove a tx or a
duty is completely, and has always been,
out of order, neveri'tneless, the Presi-
dent may permit it. And I don't care
what the Honourable Member for North
Windward writes, I nc reading fact'
and if he claims to understand the En-
glish language, let me rea-t it to him:
."Provided that, except with the
recommendation or co..r:ent of the
Administrator s..gnif ad thereto, the
Council shall not proce:. upon any
Bill, Amendmena,, Mation or Petition
wnich in the opinion of the AZ(nin-
istrator or other Plesiding Melater,
would dispose cl or cha--re any pu-)
cie revenue cr public funds of S3. Vii-
cent or revoke or alter any di, posi-
tion thereof or charge' t.hereon or
impose, alter or repeal any rate, tax
or duty."
I hardly think it could be clearer, so I
reren.t you have been very generous in-
allowing ......
lION. E. T. JOSHUA: On a point of or-
der, Mr. President. I thin- that the-
Honourable Second No ninatad Member
has misconstrued this Motion. Thi.c
Motion in its resolve never ,skecd GoV-
ernment to alter any tax or anything in
the community, it asks.. .

PRESIyDENT: Will the Honoirable Mem-
ber for North Windwar-d please' state
what is the point of order.
JTonr. E. T. JOSHUA: I ar" on a point
of order, Mr. President, and I am stat-
in, my point of order.
ORE :-DET: When tie President stands
the Honourable Member should take his
HoIT. E. T. JOSHUA: Yes, sir, but I was
stating my point of order and I haven't
PRESIDENT: As far as I cair remember
yoe-r point of order which you stated
s.io1 that the Motion was rot to alter
a' :thit. in the financial structure of
the Colony.
soyiD th.,t Governm-'ent see it ad-
vis'able to rescind t.e export duty"
Well the word "rescind,' i- not stated
in the btantinr Orders bvt the word
"repeal"' and the wor a "rescind" from
my small knowledge of the English
lac-.:uae mean exactly the same thing.
Ayvway, let us pr.oceed. I a:n going to
vc e .against this Molion for one reason
nnd ore reason alone. ot many weeks
aigo. in this very Chamber, a certain Bill
w-as produced here (.' .- vith Income
T x. i: said then and I say now that
this piecemeal changing of revenue laws
;ets nobody anywhere.
,I am extremely glad to hear from the
Hci1ou- abe Colonial Treasurer that the
Sr-re, ory ci State hE's stated that the-
I a>mi not sure of the exact w\ords-rev-
ecuue s rutui"'e does act seem to be sat-
iscr.eto:.y. I have Lean nuking that
po)iilt io,' n. very lorg time and to my
waIy cf thini'ing theie is no point what-
aeyve:: in chipping and changing a
little piece here and a little "iece there,
.':in; ecn somiet'in; here and taking
n'-.y s~scietii.ng there, unless you con-
:ii'er t_-e entire thin as it stands. The
Reenvei e of this colony is over $2,000,000
I t-elie-ve or in tha', vicinity, well you
cv't just pick at that and take off
$8,000 or $8,500 by removing this export

duty, put on another $5,000 tomorrow
by putting a tax on something else and
come back two weeks later and say we
want to have a road tax and say that
anybody that walks in the road must
pay a cent or some nonsense like that.
We have got to, sit down and consider
the entire structure of revenue in this
Colony, consider it once .rnd for all-
when we take off $8 000 here we know
where that $8,000 i.s coming from.
,here i' would bie ere equitably
imposed. This business of coming
here day after day with some Motions
that just seek popularity with one par-
ticular section or the other does not
appeal to me. When I have views I ex-
press ,them freely and v.ithout fear.
Whether anybody who grow,: potatoes
-I might say that I grow them myself
quite extensively--cares to s4y that I
opposed them in the Coin;il makes
no difference to me. My vie'-- is that if
you are considering revenue aid expeo.
di-ure you mnust consider tiie'n as one.
as a whole, and make your changes
and alterations at one nime. You
should not chip away a piece here and
leave it and fill in another little piece
on the other side. That is the point
which I made when 1 c pp'csed the
Income Tax Bill which was introduced
ov the Government and' thv.t is a
point which I will continue to make
here today---that 7.Qe cannot have this
thing piecemeal. we must have it all at
one time. Thtc i.; the point that I
make now and will continue to ma-ke
wben Motions of this sort are brought
Before this House.
HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. President,
with your permission, sir, I would just
make an observation before I sum up
these points. It is said here that one
Member has the right to speak his mind
once he was constitutional in his opinion
and as soon as other Members in my
opinion make certain statements that,
are tantamount to 'the same thing youa
are ready to rule them out of order. I
was sitting in the House of Commons
and saw debates there and that there

was freedom of speech. We should have
some modicum of freedom of speech
around this Honourable House if we are
under democracy. Thank you, Mr.
I shall now sum up these points ,as I
heard them around this Table. Now we
stretch this thing and before a Powers
and Privileges Bill is made in this coun-
try as in another West Indian Colony
which excludes the people from listen-
ing to their business then I can see, and
we all can see if we have eyes, that it is
the presence of the people that makes
everything that is done here for their
welfare not a pose at all. I notice in
this debate that Income Tax is mixed
up-a Government Bill that was to
draw more Income Tax either from a
section of the community or from all of
them-with the poor unfortunate people
under the head and guise of "Elected
Representatives Seeking Popularity," but
I can make a clear cut picture. I haven't
got to seek any popularity at all.
In bringing this Motion here as I
brought the first one, it was to relieve
certain sections of this community. The
Honourable Treasurer is .adamant in
saying that the Right Honourable the
Secretary of State for the Colonies, who
has direct charge cf the people of these
Colonies, and not the Legislative Council
herIe 2ssemrnled, is apprehensive about
the taxation that must be collected and.
so I would like to remind t,.e Colonial
Treasurer in those remarks that there
are several instances where vital neces-
sities show their heads for the relief of
the abjectly poor, even in trade and
that it is better if we do it now instead
of mixing Income Tax with these little
items. It is better we do it now than
that we are forced to find it by the mil-
lions, when we have been depriving
somebody else of normal ways of getting
through as we have done. I say that the
Colonial Treasurer has made a remark
and he isn't even sure because no facts
were posed by him, while the facts are
clear in other West Indian Islands and

I can quote them that no such taxes, are
collected. He said that he was made
to understand but as a Colonial Trea-
surer he might have known whether
these taxes are collected or not. I was
unfortunate to be absent from this
country when in a debate of the budget
and in the same Finance Committee
which the Honourable Third Nominated-
Member referred to, a tax on human
beings leaving this colony-he couldn't
leave unless he paid a tax on his body-
was argued out -and removed; well, as
the tonourable Member for St. George
supports hinm or vice versa it is clear-
where were their presence then? They
did not see what at the time had caused
hardships to the people, so far as that
was concerned, but still argue with one
breath thaL such a Motion should be
entertained or "I rise to further throw
light on the Motion but not to support
The facts are reasonable, they are
right, but it now follows that it should
be opposed because at the time when
these things were fixed it was not con-
sidered that they would be left. It was
a revenue hoped to be obtained or
should be obtained and it should now
be countersceted because it is now seen
that certain people risk their lives
through rocks and shoals for a living
and that if is now a jeopardy. But we
hear Income Tax and all kinds of
things come up now to be a barrier in
the way of those sections. Some do not
care and they have no right to care. Op-
position or no opposition they have no
right to care. I amn agreed that the
Honourabl] Second Nominated Member
has no rifht to care, he is placed here
by the Go- arnment therefore, when we
refer to t'xes confined by St. Vincent.
when we TIok at the Government's at-
titude when it suits our purpose to do
something, it is done. Whitehall is di-
rectly responsible for the people here,
because the Honourable Nominated
Member gets up and quotes adamantly
frdm Orders, Rules as you may see a
series of Bills just now in this House

coming before us. These things are fixed
here not by the volition of this Council,
save and except those who aid and abet
them, and I am saying that when you
quote voluntarily from a stream of cata-
logues, oi laws in odr country, it is quite
clear to me that we could as well take
our funeral march out of this House and
and let Mr. Lyttelton or whatsoever Co-
lonial Secretary is there, govern the
island because he is an absentee from
thls Council. All that happens is that
he is informed from here and if we ,as
representatives of the people tell him
that this is not necessary or that is not
necessary, he believes us, but when it is
represented to him as a vital necessity
for this colony he has also to believe you.
It doesn't take Aristotle's logic to see
that that is correct. I am saying there-
fore that when you talk to me that this
thing is wrong and that that is that,
and you did not see that you should not
tax human beings going out of the Colo-
ny during the last budget when I was
there} you should have seen also that this
was wrong; if your argument tends to
support and afterwards to oppose. I see
that clearly as ever.
I would pardon ad hoc at least the
Honourable Third Nominated Member
but that same pardon cannot go to an
Honourable Member who is elected by
the reoule to come here and tell us "the
thing is good" yes and you sit down in
the Council and allow it to continue and
make a pretext that Ordinances are
there to say that taxation, like the laws
of the Greeks and Persians, cannot be
removed. That is as clear as the light.
That is as clear because when we sit in
this House like ghosts and make laws
to do these things. we know very well
that we oppose each other,. gentlemanly
li'.e or otherwise, .and that is not right.
There should be a co-ordinated consider-
ation for the people of the country who
are under such conditions as these are.
The Secretary of State should be made
to understand according to the lot of
the people, what elasticity he should
make in certain directions, because this

did not ask to disturb income tax, this
concerns perishable goods and has .a
certain amount, of apprelintibn of the
voyage on the sea where these people
are definitely ,;., nt rii. And y)a are
going to tell me no v that you arc going
to make this a plausible cause for telling
us that income tax and all should be
considered together when we speak
merely of perishable goods of the people
who are trading and we have no consid-
eration for them.
This is no popularity and why?. May
as well we say that those who support,
soon to come with a forced cer'icate,
the Ram Harry Paul Medical Registra-
tion Bill a"'e trying to prevent medical
officers dfrom coming here or that we
take any at any price. Now we have
before us same specific thing shown be-
fore our eyes. It is rot something that
is deliberately put ,as such nier perish-
able things as Income Tax w. ich is im-
mutable aid whii'h is nrn-perishable.
We are speaking o: t-. hrzard. and an'
reasonable Coloni' T'easurer, an7 rea-
sonable set of representatives. will see
the point here. C.position is alriglht,
without op, position e never krow v, here
we are. I hate a mmc who sits don and
is neither for nor against. There are
certain men whose -isages .are cream
and mottlerd like a lancingg pond but
the same is regard' as conceied-we
do not know which way he sits whether
on the fence or on !.\e side if 'he Mo-
tion. Tl:erefc;re tih se who reea n from
supporting hle Moe C I say t'o them:
it is nothing. We lhai;e always been vot-
ing against the vwills of the people
whether we call it popularity or non-
popularity. Therefore I say this thad;
this has nothing to do wi'h Income 'Tax
bills that have teen opposed here,
neither has it got rr nthinc7 o do with
the fundamental collection of taxation.
If a storm comes 'n cert,?ir. acts of
God are corimmitted irre the hr hi- Bills
that hy,ve b en road I ere would have to
turn themselves in I :?yance to that act
of God. If we see that in a minute
particular that people are suffering from

trade, the Government, if it is democra-
t:.c and humanly disposed, will also ex-
perience a turn of mind and not com-
plicate an issue that would bring in the
hole super structure of taxes collected
in the state just to be a barrier, an in-
surmounta.ble bairier, against a fact
that is clear before our very eyes.
One person said, I think it is the Sec-
ond Nominated Member, that the Mo-
tion should have not been allowed to be
debated' here at all I agree with him
because sometimes .
How. E. A. C. HuGiES: On a poinl of
order, Mr. President, I do not remember
saying that at all. I said that you were
very generous in allowing this Motion
to be debated.
HofN. E. T. Jos iU4: You said so, sir.
HON. E. A. C. HIcHEs: I beg your par-
don, I said that the President was gen-
erous in permitti-ig it to be debated. He
aruld 1,ave preve.ited it, I did not say
-e 'houldr hiae prevented it.
TTON. E. T. JosiHjA: There is a differ-
rnce bIet-een "could" and "should,"
bat's I'izht. Sir. -The force of the auxi-
? ": verbs.
HoN. E. A. C. HUGHES: It is quite
clear Sir. I did rot say he ou-ht to have
,-e'eentied it or that he should have pre-
vented it.
IHoN. E. T. JOSHUA: Well, I give you
!be he ed_ of the doubt, Sir, if "could"
or '"Iho d" has been used. The technri-
c.slity iu tie force of the auXiliaries
"ovee. ..v! I shall continue, Sir.
"Te f.vt remains that when we con-
;i er that this Motion seeks definitely
.nd actually in a nutshell with some-
ihing iI at has nothing to do with t;,,xa-
lion. This is something which we say
exists and it is reeking hardship on the
people. It was reduced-when was it
i'educed" It was reduced when a com-
1-laint was made. We are only going to
-e' ain mtu.l something touches our
:.'. use Cren men, before we take steps
o' bePlf of an incident; I wait until
.relhi-g affect' me personally as a
Representative of the people before I

can see light to come. Why was this
thing reduced? The figures tell us that
it was one penny-2'e-then it jumped
to 22%3/4 according to the calculation
made here locall'r and then it came
down again after some complaint was
made. Well., it s'ojws me plainly that if
we have a reduction in mind, if we really
mean to argue in this Honourable House
,that we discovered long ago that this
was an error to raise taxation by swind-
ling the poor peop:3 then we should have
removed it as we removed the tax on
the head of a ma'i-$2.00 before he can
leave this country. If lie did not have
that $2.00 he had to stick it, he could
not move 1'ntill it was paid and to find
it h6 may :nave tc borrow or steal it, if
he really wanted ,o go. We know tlit
it was remnvied. 'Vho removed it? .3 it
the ques:ioa abi. ut these perishai-le
goods lingered tlh-re We never cons0 1 !-
ered that certa.:i of these controls
should be flying to the bottomless pit
and remaining there.
There is something else I would like to
say, but I do net know whom it will
hurt. I believe tI:at whoever oppose -iCe
Motion, whoever believe that this TMo-
tion was b, ought here for popularity, I
- am saying ? ho"- "sly end well ti t
Joshua o, the Honourable Member for
Nor.h Win,'ward needs no popularity.
If there is -nytbi 'g of popularity whi-h
you disce-'', belie" 7 me that I qm not on
that drive. You have all noticed that I
am square and frir above all. I never
come here and pretend to be s,'pporting
a Motion and opposin', it because that
would- or1"7 give re a chance if no one
was liste iy g to t"is Debate that every-
thing said and done would have been
Motion put to the vote and lost.

The following Eills were read a first
time :-
The Arrowroot (Consolidation) Bill.
The Street Collections (Control) Bill.
The Package Tax (Amendment) Bill.

The Summary Conviction Offences
(Amendment) Bill.
The Sedition and Undesirable Publi-
cations (Amendment) Bill.
The Ram Harry Paul Medical Regis-
tration Bill.
PRESIPINTT: In the Legislative Rules
"no Bill should be read a second time
before the expiration of seven days from
the date of its publication and circula-
tion to Members unless the President in
a signed certificate laid upon the Table
or otherwise communicated to the
Council, shall have declared that the
Isu~pension o this order is in the case
ot the :11 specified in his certificate in
t..'-e public interest." I oo therefore by
virtue 0c the power vested in me by the
,..id rules ce:tify that the suspension of
the said rules in the case of the Medical
Register' ion Rim Harry Paul Bill is in
the public interest.
Question that "the Bill be read a first
ti ae" pu, ar.d agreed.
HON. S., E. SLATERS Mr. President,
Honoura le Members, just for informa-
l'icn. I wonder whether the medical
Jrctitio'ers here shouldn't have some-
t-'jino, t,:. say or some notice to send in to
- 'is Co 'cil as to whether it would be
Po-preci.'ed by them to have Dr. Harry
P!',u tc .act here or what ever he is
erminng :o do. I heard it said just now
that o.' cannot tell doctors what to do
but I t"'uak that in fairness to the doc-
tol-s in the island they have a right to
L.ive a ..y in their own affairs.
PREStInaNT: Honourable Members will
'c interested to hear that this question
i. s 'ee.- unc .er very active consideration
i., all t:E Medical Officers of this island
th.'ougi their Association, the British
M',e'dicai Association, and the administra-
ti. we .ld never have taken so far
rea chin,' a step without full consultation
an I full approval by the British Medi-
caOl Association.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. President, I
would like to make an observation. I am
saying, sir, that from your lips now I
have got it that this Bill was under con-

sideration for quite a while; if I am cor-
rect, Sir, if T quote correctly, Mr.
President. And I, into season and out
of season, ].ad this fault to find with
the Admini, rat ir of this Colony: where
now we have before us a. fact that that
certificate atta, hed to such a Bill as
this did not give this Council a chance
to even get soam idea of it. If the Medi-
cal Board had t.ieir idea of this man or
the Administra ion, the People's Repre-
sentatives shou .: also have their side of
it. 'I do noi see why a certificate should
be attached w;o nis type of Bill. We are
not waiting to registerr him to perform
a special cper'.tion, like the Siamese
Lwins or su.cnet'iing like that so, there-
fore, I do not -ee the use of this forced
certificate attac.ned to the Bill at all.
HON. H. F. YOUNG: It would take an-
other two months, Mr. President. I am
in favour of this certificate. Seeing that
we have just Leen debating that we are
short of doct- rs it would take two
months again .before this Bill can be
read a-third tine. Therefore, if we need
doctors, we nu. t be satisfied with it as
it is. Formerly, as far as my humble
knowledge goes, the British Medical
Association ne-er thought that they
should. have medical practitioners from
the States, but :ill over Trinidad and all
over the world today if a man goes 'to
certain Uni. ersies it is the same hu-
man beings in he United States whom
he is going ',j attend to. Now that 'hey
are satisfi.a ',hat these Universities
have reached t, their standard, all we
have to do is to make an ordinance for
him to pra' ice here. You will notice
that we are ma:'ing it for a specific man
and it will not change the entire thing.
The whole thing is that we have real-
ised that he is from Howard University
which is a good University, and that he
is a doctor, whether he came from the
United States or Rlussia or Germany,
they are the sa.me human beings whom
he is going to attend to. That is all this
Bill means.
HoN. A. C. CyiRus: Mr. President, all
I want to find out about this thing here
-I heard the Honourable Member for

South Leeward explain it, but I just want
to get it clear-is that notwithstanding
he is not possessing the qualifications
described by the Medical Registration
Ordinance (Cap. 113) that he is eligible
to practice here?
PRESIdENT: All that means is that he
has not been trained in an English Uni-
HON. E. A. C. HUHEs: Mr. President,
there seems to be some confusion of
thought. Standing Orders state that no
Bill can be read a. second time on the
same date unless the President gives a
certificate of urge,.cy. The President
has produced his certificate of urgency
which means that this Bill may be read
a second time and Standing Rules and
Orders may be suspended if this Council
approves the suspension of Standing
Rules and Orders. The producing of a
certificate is purely an executive
function. This House cannot object to
the production of a certificate. What it
can do is that when the Honourable
Crown Attorney rises to move the sus-
pension of the Standing Rules and Or-
ders following on the production of that
certificate we can say "No, we will not
suspend Standing Rules and Orders, this
Bill will have to come back next month
or month after next" as the case may be.
We can't object to the certificate. What
we can say is "Yes, you have your certi-
ficate there, and this thing may, be pro-
ceeded with but we do not want to pro-
ceed with it and will not therefore sus-
pend Standing Rules and Orders."
sident, Honourable Members, I beg leave
to move the suspension of Standing
Rules and Orders to enable the Ram
Harry Paul Bill to go through all its
stages today.
second that.
Question put and agreed.
Bill read a second time.
HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: Is this the second
reading of the Bill?

PRESIDENT: This is the second reading
of the Bill. Is there any debate?
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. President,
Honourable Members. I want to remove
the impression that Ram Harry Paul
should not be registered here. That is
not in my province. We are always
known in this island here to do things
by whims and fancies. I say that with-
out an' apology, because these things
have occurred here and the Motion that
brought the affair here had to wait the
fullest time. I have the opportunity now
to comment on the certificate. When a
man is against you, he is against you
so therefore he opposes what you say
and do especially when their minds are
small, but what I am sayin;' here is, thau
what I am saying is in the public inter-
est also, whether that forced certificate
is in too. I know next to nothing of any
report and it .appears as though the
Honourable Member for the Leeward
Coast is in the same position about this
Ram Harry Paul. We have nothing of.
a vestige of a fact from any Medical
Board or .anything whatsoever, but just
because he is in favour now of those,
"yes, suspend the Standing Rules and
Orders and make it law quickly to regis-
ter him." What is our hurry? What is
the hurry? Have we got a Siamese twin
here to separate and he is .an expert and
the only one who can do it, so because
he is an American practitioner you race
through all the stages to make him a
doctor quick and proper on the Medical
books of the Colony to cut them apart?
Or has he suddenly discovered some
special drug which nobody here knows
of and to register him lest there is an
epidemic going about and the people
will perish? I am saying that in fairness
to this community that the Representa-
tives of the people, though some may
not have the pluck enough and guts
enough to express it here, should have
previous knowledge of the affairs of the
community of such an intricate sort
than to have certificates attached to the
Bilgs, and we as Councillors do not know
one thing about the internal affairs of

what is being put before us. That is
why I attack the certificates and always
will attack them when they come like
that. My voice will one d.:y be heard,
one day the setup here will be democra-
tic. I am saying clearly,. while not op-
posing Ram Harry Paul as a doctor be-
cause I am not one and I don't know his
function in medicine, the fact remains
whatever qualifications, whatever is
said, should be known to some Council
or the other-nobocy knows. But since
-a question was asked by the Honourable
Member for Leeward "v,'hat about this
Ram Harry Paul, is he a co and so?"
Another Honourable Memu;er asked
about a certain statemen-t. That shows
conclusively that only ti'i -.o mulgators
of this certificate and th- Bill know the
facts of Ram Harry Paul t,hredfore then
I say it is from that an "e alone that I
have a right to have a .y here. Now
the other part of course )nce you make
up your mind here to do a n:hing it can
be done. I am not oppo.;ing Ram Harry
Paul as a man or a doct:.r t ut the prin-
ciple is always wrong a"*d it is that I
am going to attack. I ha-e attacked it
because it is wrong: I h.'ve attacked it
because when similar circumstances
arise you find us doing soLiething else
here, we are not constant and not even
variable with reason. That is why I
have attacked and debated this second
reading of Ram Harry Paul Bill.
HON. E. A. C. HUGHES: Mr. President,
Honourable Members, I :ind it difficult
at times to follow the meanuderings of
certain Members of this C-uncil. We
have before us here a Bill which in its
first few lines tells you \.nat Ram Harry
Paul is:-
"Whereas Ram Hai -v Paul, a
Bachelor of Science and Doctor of
Medicine of Howard University in
the United States of America"
that is what he is. The local Medical
Registration Ordinance provides for the
registration of ,any doctor of medicine
of any British University. Dr. Ram
Harry Paul is a doctor .of medicine of
Howard University in the United States

of America. Is there any Member
around this Council who would be so
bold as to say that he has never heard
of Howard University-the greatest
coloured University in the World? I
hardly think that has been the case, so
let us continue.
The Honourable Member says he is
thinking of the welfare of the people and
what is the hurry, there .are no Siamese
twins to be operated on. What is the
hurry, Gentlemen? The hurry is this:
for years, sir, we 1,.ive been short staffed
for doctors. For :,ears, not for weeks.
We beard a Motion cebated this morni.r;'
where the Honourable Member :or
North Leeward was trying to remove a.
doctor from one place to put him in r -
other place because we didn't have doc-
tors to fill bota places. If my memory is
not at fault, the Honourable Memlier
for North Windward voted in fIour o
that Motion but now he tells us tha ,
there are no Siamese twins to be sep:r-
HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: On a point of ex-
planation, Mr. President. When the
Honorable 'Nominated Member says
that, he is giving a wrong impression.
We knew very well that there vas so.mee
urgency for doctors but I am s;&vyii
that when things of this nature cone
for registration they should be proiperiy
done-we should have a knowlec-_;e, -hg t
is all. Take note that is what I haie
HON. E. A. C. HUGHES: I will return
and say this: that I should have appre-
ciated that criticism coming perhaps
from the Honourable Member ior South
Leeward'or the Honourable Member for
North Leeward or froim any Honourable
Member who is not a Member of the
Executive Council of this Colony, ';ecav_ .e
this matter of Dr. R-ca nHariy .1ul hJs
been fully dis.,_issed in ecer/ pi.l se a;nd
every aspect (.f it before tVe 'Executive
Council of which the Honoarable Memn
ber for North Windwvard h&ppe-is to be
a Member. If, in fact, he was absent at
the time when it was being discussed
that is certainly not my fault and it is

certainly not the fault of the President.
Tner'e was a CertificLe b e red from the
lo'c1 General Medical Council, the local
branch of the Britisl- Medical Associa-
ti;;n, consisting of g;':itlemen like Dr.
Gun-Munro, Dr. Mac:lillan, Dr. Munro
as: t1 he whole ?ot oi them. They all
said "yes, the qualifcAtions are quite in
o'o-er and we who are registered in St.
Viccent have no objection w.-atever to
SDr. Paul's registrati ,n." Surely the
rta 'iorse Meimner .eesn't think that
-"s:,ent or my?if or the Crown
A t riy -.ould take upon ourselves to
c.'i, c to ring .Dr. R.mc HWary Paul or
I. ,2o, cody EIse or 3'iy b:dyv ;hat we
,w care to bring and try to make him
a doctor. This Gent eiian applied for
a job or we weie L old that he was avail-
ar'l:. The first thirg thae happened
u., that his qgaeificaions wi-re submrit-
tolI to thle Medical Pr -ctitio'-ers here in
S.. Vincent who knc'. mu li more of
these thi as th-i.n I ever will. They know
when a degree is, worti sor,'et~-:ing and
when it is wor'h not fing. T1.aey haid
"yes let us have this c entlera ,i." The
Government said there is a demand
throughout the island for Medical'Offi-
ce-'s. We have heard from the Honour-
able Member lor No; th Leew.ard this
morning that men have been dying
withcut medical atte:.fion. Four men
dc.,-pp-d dead last ye r, an; could not
see a 'Lordor but now -. e are ok-'ked what
is the ur-ency fo' do .ors. Am I hear-
in; correctly? What is the urgency?
WViy not put it off fcr one month? I
a':ree that there are 1io Siamese twins
to Lbe operated on now a.t this particular
moment. Who is to know th.a, there may
nco be one tomorrow? Or th';, three or
four more people may not dion dead at
O'.ia, Sandy Eay, C(' teaT;:.e;.iir and
Be uia and ever: ,yv'erit else -here there
is s.ich a great cry an I urgent need for
lMV- is' 1 Practitioners'
-Honourable Lremibe";. I cox:e my re-
marks by saying this: that I find it ex-
tremely .difficult .at tir mes to follow this
and how any Honourable Member who
professes strongly and with great sin-
cerity to be considering at all times the

interest of the people of St. Vincent, how
any Honourable Member could do any-
thing at all to delay or to obstruct the
passage of a Bill which seeks not to im-
pose taxation on anybody or imprison
anybody, I fail to understand. All it
seeks to do is to make it legally possible
to have in this Colony an additional
Medical Officer, a Bachelor of Science
and a Doctor of Medicine. Is that such
a heinous crime which. this administra-
tion has attempted? To bring another
doctor into a place where you have pro-
visions already for 11 doctors and, in
fact you have only 5 stationed here. You
.are short nearly 50% of medical men.
We are asked here this morning please
to pass this Bill quickly we have an-
other doctor who can come, who can go
about the country and attend to sick
people, who will see that perhaps in the
future they will not drop down dead
without benefit of medical attention.
What is so heinous about that? I find
it very difficult, Mr. President.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Rises.
PRESIDENT: What is the Honourable
Member for North Windward rising for?
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: I rise on a point
of explanation and I shall have it. Now
there are two points that I would like to
explain: (1) The Honourable Nominated
Member said about being .a Member of
the Executive Council. This matter was
not drawn to my attention. There are
scores of files that pass round the Exe-
cutive Council and are passed to other
Members and I do not see them, that's
the point.
HON. E. A. C. HUGHES: On a point of
order, Mr. President. This is not a ques-
tion of a file being circulated, this was
at a meeting of the Executive Council.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: And again I
speak, sir,
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: I am not opposing
any . .
PRESIDENT: Will the Honourable Mem-
ber for North Windward please take his
seat when the President stands. Just

looking at the file here I see that this
question was discussed on the 27th No-
vember, 1953, 19th February, 1954 and on
occasions before that so it has had am-
ple time to pass through the Executive
HoN. E. T. JOSHUA: I, was asking you
for a point and I thought you would
have listened to me and let me sit down
but you rose just at the time and I know
very well that I must sit down when the
President stands.
I am saying, sir, that I am not opposing
Ram Harry Paul Bill and that is very
well known here. I am opposing the
principle. You talk about this and that,
no Siamese twins and four men drop
dead. We can kill more.
HON. S. E. SLATER: Mr. President, Hon-
ourable Members, it is not customary
for a Bill to be passed here for a doctor
to be registered. I am not in the Execu-
tive Council and I had a right to ask not
because I doubted or I didn't want to
have him but on the grounds that I
would like to know the feelings of the
doctors here on this point. I did not want
to commit myself to something that is
ultra vires to the code here, that is all.
HON. J. A. BAYNES: Mr. President,
Honourable Gentlemen, I merely saw
this Bill when the actual papers for this
meeting were sent to me but I do not
believe that this is either here or there
to me. What I want to know is that
people throughout the length and
breadth of St. Vincent should acquire
more medical attention when possible
and that can only be done by endeav-
ouring to find doctors wherever they are.
We have brought them from Czechoslo-
vakia and now we are endeavouring to
bring one from the United States. I wish
that we can perhaps find two more. I
heard the Elected Member for North
Windward say that Elected Members
haven't got the guts to express their
opinion with regard to Bills when they
are pushed or not. I should like, to say
this: that I do not think that it requires
that type of guts to express an opinion
such as he has expressed because that,

as I see it, is not helping St. Vincent.
What we want is not men to jump up
and raise objections when these things
are clearly seen by everyone gathered
here that they are in the interest of the
common man. What I actually want is
to see that the people get the most good
with the little money we have at all at
our disposal, not to criticise certain
things when they are brought here be-
cause that is not doing the people any
HoN. L. C. LATHAM: Mr. president,
Honourable Members, I rise here to sup-
port this Motion for the benefit of the
community -as a whole. I know that in
my area of Marriaqua we have over 375
people who attend the doctor on Thurs-
days, out of that 375 the doctor is only
able to take 100-60 children, 40 adults-
the other 275 have to return home. I am
very glad that we .are having a doctor
from America and I am asking the ad-
ministration to try and get three more
doctors in the very near future to help
the situation.
HON. H. F. YOUNG: Mr. President, Hon-
ourable Members, I would like to say
something on this affair because really
speaking if this Certificate did not ,ome
out I would have asked. I have nothing
against any man here, whatever he puts
forward I treat as I thing fit. I believe
that the Honourable Menmber for -.orth"
Leeward wanted to enquihe and he got
up and made an apology so I won t go
any 'further. We were clamouring for
doctors at our end, we need them. This
doctor is a West Indian.he only vew0t to
the University in America. Don't mix
the issue, he is not an American, he is a
West Indian attending at an Ame.ican
University. Well if we are thinking that
people who live in America are not civi-
iised I can assure you that they have
very good doctors.' All the Bill is asking.
because formerly we were having ,ne-
who were trained in Britain, is that we
accept this fellow with an American
certificate, that is all and if we can get
him this evening if it is possible, because
we are short we were just debating that,
it would be better yet.

President, Honourable Members, I beg
leave to move that this Council resolve
itself into a Committee of the whole
House to consider the Bill clause by
second that.
Question put and agreed.
Council moved into Comittee.
Bill considered clause by clause.
Council resumes.
PRESIDENT.: Honourable Members, I
have to report that the Ram Harry Paul
Medical Registration Bill passed the
Committee stage without amendment.
to move that the President's report be
second that.
Question put .and agreed.
PRESIDENT: Will thee, Honourable
Members please inform me what they
wish to do, finish the remaining read-
ings of the other Bills or have an ad-
Question put "that the remaining
readings of the Bills be finished" and
President, Honourable Members, I beg
to move the second reading of a Bill for
an Ordinance to make provision as to
the immunities, privileges and capaci-
ties of sovereigns, diplomatic agents and
representatives of foreign powers, inter-
national organizations of which Her
Majesty's Government in the United
Kingdom and foreign governmentss are
members; to confer imm.1unitie,7 and pri-
vileges on the staffs 0c such organisa-
tions and representatives of member
governments and in res.iecz of premises
and documents of such organizations.
second that.
Question put and agreed.
Bill read a second time.

President, Honourable Members, I beg to
move that this Council resolve itself into
a Committee of the whole House to con-
sider the Bill.
second that.
Question put and agreed.
Council moved into Committee.
Bill considered clause by clause.
Council Resumed.
PRESIDENT: Honourable Members, I
have the honour to report that the In-
ternational Organisation (Immunities
and Privileges) Bill passed the Commit-
tee stage with one amendment.
to move that the President's report be
ond that.
Question put and agreed.
to move that the Bill be read a third
time by title and passed.
second that.
Question put and agreed.
Bill read a third time by title and
dent, Honourable Members, I beg leave
to move the second reading of a Bill for
an Ordinance further to amend the
Land and House Tax Ordinance.
to second that.
Question put and agreed.
Bill read a second time.
move that this Council resolve itself into
a Committee of the whole House to con-
sider the Bill clause by clause.
to second that.
Question put and agreed.
Council moved into Committee.-

Bill considered clause by clause.
Council resumed.
PRESIDENT: Honourable Members, I
have the honour to report that the Land
and House Tax (Amendment) Bill
passed through the Committee stage
without amendment.
move that the President's Report be
to second that.
Question put and agreed.
HON. H. F. YOUNG: There is one point
here about selling properties. Some
time ago we had some properties put up
for sile at Leeward and Kingstown, the
Bailiff whoever he is would sell the pro-
perty for just say 10/- worth of taxes.
There was a Motion moved here where
we thought that the property should be
sold for the approximate value of the
property. The question is this Mr. "X"
owes 10/- for taxes but his property
might be worth $900, it is put up for sale
and then some Shylock buys it for $5.00.
It hv s happened already where the pro-
perty itself is worth much more and the
people are then forced to pay back 2M
or 100 to regain their property. I am
not saying that they should not sell it.
PRESIDENT: That is the whole point of
this -Dill. The sale does not become ab-
solute until the expiration of 3 months.
To0:T. H. F. YOUNG: That does, not
cove" the value. It is a different thing
I am talking about. (g) here says "The
reserve price will be the amount of taxes
costs and charges," I am trying to say
that if the property is worth $500 it
should not be sold just for the amount of
taxes. It should be sold for what it is
wort-j and the difference go back to the
pers,.a. All the Bailiff would be inter-
ested in is to cover his 110/-.
PRESIDENT: I am not sure that that
is the whole point at all. The object of
this Bill is that when properties of that
sort come up for sale the owner of the

property has 3 months in which to raise
whatever amount of taxes is due and
then he can go and take his property,
so that nobody can come and pay 10/-
for his house and claim it on the spot.
HON. H. F. YOUNG: But suppose he
did not come in 3 months then he could
not buy his property back, then his pro-
perty would be sold only for the 10/-. The
point I am trying to make is if you sell
his property for the nominal value, you
won't get so many people rushing to buy
PRESIDENT: Then you won't get the
taxes paid.
HON. E. A. C. HUGHES: There would be
two objections to that:-
(i) you might not get the nominal
value of it;
(ii) when that property is sold for $400
or $500 it is so much more difficult
for him to have to buy it back.
If he couldn't get 10/- to pay his taxes
where is he going to get the $400 or $500
to buy it back? That means he will never
recover himself in that particular deal,
whereas in the case where the 10/- was
paid he would have 3 months to save his
HON. H. F. YOUNG: If it were sold for
the nominal value you wouldn't get any
purchasers. They only get the pur-
chasers because you are selling it just
to recover your taxes and most of the
time the people do not even know bt-
cause they cannot even read. I have
seen that.
HON. J. A. BAYNES: Mr. President,
Gentlemen. I think there is a point in
Mr. Young's argument. It points out
this one thing quite clearly . .
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: On a point of or-
der, Mr. President, what are we? Are we
in Committee? Wasn't the second read-
ing of the Bill passed? A Bill cannot be
debated after the second reading is
PRESIDENT: I was just saying that we
have ,already passed that stage.

HON. J. A. BAYNES Yes, but T think
you permitted it in the past.
PRESIDENT: I am sorry, the Bill is al-
ready passed.
move that the Bill 'be read a third time
by title and passed.
to second that.
Question put and agreed.
Bill read a third time by title and
President, Honourable Members, I beg
to move the second reading of the
Trade' Unions and Trade Disputes
(Amendment) Bill.
second that.
Question put ,and agreed.
Bill read a second time.
HON. E. T. JOSHUA: Mr. President,
Honourable Members, I believe that Hon-
ourable Members may say here now, at
this ninth hour, that this Bill was not
made and placed on the Agenda when
it was apparently thought or seen that
this House was firm behind labour but
now it has come out when they think
otheriwse. This Bill in my hand is a
Bill that is premature in this Colony. I
shall point out the reasons for it.
We have here in section (2) Provisional
Registration, you will notice that this
Bill seeks to give to any Registrar Gen-
eral of a Trade Union full and undue
powers to delay the registration of a
Trade Union. It also gives him certain
powers. If "every Trade Union seeking
registration shall after complying with
the necessary provisions of this Ordin-
ance with respect to registration be pro-
visionally registered", if a Trade Union
has complied with the sections of the
Ordinance existing it must still have a
probationary period provided, however,
that the Registrar may in his discretion
from time to time extend, that period;
that is to say, you have no fixed princi-
ple here now for the registration of a

Trade Union if this is passed. It means
that the whims .and fancies of some
Registrar General or his locum tenens
might tell you "I cannot register'your
Union because I think so and so." This
Bill seeks to do that now; this Bill seeks
to take away from the normal course
of a Trade Union's rights; this Bill from
cover to cover seeks to stamp out Trade
Unionism from the Colony. It is the
preparation for it and that begins with
We turn to section 11B (2) page 4. We
read here that if the Registrar considers
that a breach has been committed that
he make such orders for rectifying the
breach as he thinks just under the cir-
cumstances; "and .any such order of the
Registrar shall be binding and conclu-
sive on all parties without appeal and
shall not be removable into any court
of law, or restrainable by injunction, -and
on being recorded in the Supreme Court
Registry may be enforced as if it had
, been an Order of the Supreme Court."
Well then, this is another part to show
you that the Registrar General is given
such powers that even the Court, a Su-
preme Court with its full complement of
Judges or its Appeal Court has no power
over this life and death of the Union
given to this Registrar General. This
is a new Bill seeking to do that in the
form of an amendment. Well, about
political fund and all that come on the
monetary side, I do not mind, because
all honest people seek to do things hon-
estly and well, but in those sections
dealing with this question of political
fund and what not really means the
question of a ballot.
Page 5 Section (5) "A ballot for the
purposes of this section shall be taken
in accordance with rules of the union
to be approved for the purpose by the
Registrar, but the Registrar shall not
approve any such rules unless le is satis-
fied that every member has an equal
right, and if reasonably possible, a fair
opportunity of voting, and that the
secrecy of the ballot is properly secured."

Why? This Council does every thing by
secrecy because that is the disposition of
the Government under this present set-
up. But why should you take that same
setup and pose it on the people? That
same secrecy when they are trying to
practice now a wider range of democra-
cy to do things by show of oands and
openly so that they should know who
stab them in the back and who stab
them in the dark? In these people's
setup, it is quite clear that a set of peo-
ple are being led and tutored to betray
their Unions, and when we know that,
when we are honest to have everything
done so that we can get as much hon-
esty as possible out of it, to have a Bill
telling you about secrecy when the nor-
mal course of the proceedings of those
trade unionism throughout, they go in
their Union Hall and do things in the
sight of all by show of hands that all
may know frankly what section is
against them or wiio is for them. I do
not see the use for this Trade Union
Ordinance at all because if it were to be
anything at .all, it would be a one-leaf
aitfendment about political fund, where
the monies of the Union will be directed
snd how it is to be spent by a Govern-
ment Ordinance. But Gentlemen, I say
clearly and plainly that it is not neces-
sary for us to limit or stamp out trade
unionism in this country. This Bill
seeks to do it. It only depends on the
whims andi fancies of the Government's
mind at the time whether it be anti-
labour- or what to bring this fully into
effect and then you destroy every vestige
of trade unionism setup in the country.
We go on to another section. I do not
want to starve the gentlemen but we
persist to gb on forgetting that on the
Agenda was this Bill and therefore then
the same time must be spent as if our
bellies were filled before the second
reading of the Bill shall be passed.
No person shall be eligible to hold
office, what that means I myself do not
know. I take that to mean "Office"
would mean "Secretary-Treasurer" or
"President-General," whether that be of

a trade, branch affiliated with the Union,
nobody knows but this is what I know
it goes on to say:-
"(a) unless he
(i) obtains his livelihood from em-
ployment in a-i industry which
the trade union represents, and
(ii) has for a continuous period of at
least three ye;.rs been employed
in the said industry,"
Gentlemen, this is tie point. We had
that in practical exTerience, so I am
telling you somethi-ng not theorising,
but I am stating 'n:mething in clear
hard !acts, in these trades as in the
sugar industry for i',stance of tangible
example, as soon as it is discovered 'A,"
"B" or "C" .are members of a legally
registered Trade 1 union they are victim-
ised and thrown out; that is to say, it
brings about a state -from the state of
affairs that exist now in our country
that we should hone tly admit that "I
am in a Trade Union and I. am existing
for trade." He is lictimised because
then on the other h,.:d there is no pro-
tection, for the v orker whatsoever, not
even by a Lab ur Commissioner al-
though we have one here. These people
are victimised aid t.irown out of jobs
and tney would have co say their Pater
Noster or go back 6o .he ordeals of times
of o'i, far more 1o tie betraying their
Unions or their trus! in the Union s:
that they can be able to hold a job there.
Hence, where are you going to get the
men to hold, these jobs when that low
ebb when that low depth from which
trade unionism should be climbing,
every time it slips riiht down back here
because of the present attitude and re-
action of even the Government towards
free trade unionism ii the country. It is
said that any such nv' ice--you speak of
a notice--to Mem bers of the Union shall
be given in accordant,, with rules of the
Union, of rules for the purpose by the
Registrar, having reg: rd in each case to
the existing practice id the character of
the Union. What dc.s that mean? It
means that every po-usiole way adopted
in this amendment and in the Trade

Union Ordinance to place undue pres-
sure upon trade unionism which will be
duly registered in the country so that
control monopoly and trade union rights
will be given to one man because it is
said in the Ordinance that there will be
no appeal.
"Has obtained the age of 21 years"-
well it is as low as 16.
"If he has been convicted of fraud,
larceny or any other offence involving
dishonesty"-that is in order.
The provisions, of this Section 150
should not be here at all -and the reason
for this is that we have to develop our-
selves. The Government should do
something honestly to support trade
unionism in this country. There is no
Arbitration Board. In disputes there is
no one to whom you can appeal so far
as the setup is now, but before we rectify
that we have an Ordinance ready to tell
the workers of the land who are now
trying to organise themselves in a legal
trade union that they must be employed
in that trade. This is a limitation, a
wicked limitation in this Ordinance
here. Well, of course, we see that when
we come to unions in this country some
exist in names and the rest and'some ex-
ist in ill fame and the rest. These things
are clear that when we see these ordin-
ances come before the House we still
believe the age of facism exists and that
read as a fact it is aimed individually
just as the Ram Harry Paul Ordinance
for medicine though impersonal without
the name over the head just so these
Ordinances come -up. I see too that it
still bears the name and it was to come
here since the 17th December, 1951. They
did not seek to bring it then because
apparent unity for labour seemed to ex-
ist here but after 3 years now it is strict
and proper to bring it' with all these
catalogues of impositions. I see nothing
about the political fund because when
it comes to money I always have the
position that money should occupy my,
life and soul in any country or any com-
munity in the world. I would not even

comment on any though there are some
most extravagant sections dealing with
this political fund.
In any country where the people know
that what they value most is at stake
they generally rise to the occasion. If
they have to bring their penny and their
pound and hand it to you, they shall
bring those, so I am not concerned with
the rponetary part. Those are easy to
surmount. What I am concerned with
is stamping out trade unionism when
on the other side there is no protection
whatsoever for it here.
To have a budding trade union with
all these impositions, I would to God
that men who run unions would come
out honestly and deal with them as
such. I believe the employers of labour
would be happy in their hearts to know
that that is done and that there is a
clearly defined, demarcation between
worker and owner of any estate and be.
in peace of mind to have things clearly
defined throughout, but, they ignore you
throughout, they take no notice of you,
there is nothing that when they throw
out certain workers unreasonably and
illegally that you can ask them any ques-
tion; there is no such. power. If those
powers are there they cannot be exer-
cised according to what we see here and
if we are honest men we would acknow-
ledge it. I am feeling the pinch and
weight of this thing. You have to act
and obey the laws of a country, everyone
of us have to andt when we see "well, my
labour is worth' me so much" or labour
is sold on the market as any other com-
modity and we find that not even the
question arises of collective bargaining
but forever things are being fixed in this
country by Wage Boards. Then it is
time that something be done. The time
is premature I said and if they waited
for three years they could have waited
a little longer. Now the question is: we
consider income tax and so on, we put
in this section, put out that but what
happens to a community when the lower
strata of it cannot give expression freely

in their minds of their calling, their
trade or their function? Gentlemen,
that too we must consider is detrimen-
tal to a State. I am saying that if
employers in this country were more
reasonable well then.the labour leader
-call him what you like-will be called
in and the matter rightly stated as we
see them. No, you ignore him through-
out and sometimes get away with the
fact that he is illiL'rate; -he is this and
that, he is irresponsible. On the other
hand when you have some vestige of
knowledge of what you are doing there
is something else to be found to say "an
impossible task,' hut still we insist to
adopt here Bills that aim, aim I say, at
oppression of trade unions. A Trade
Union is not free when you have the
employers of labour free to ignore
Unions, free to vi:timise people and no
Trade Union leader can intervene. It is
not free when those things exist because
after all human n Lture gives vent to
their nent up emotion in different ways;
it depends on hov the leaders react to
their pent up em. !.ion. But how long
could leaders of i" union subdue the
feelings of people when we have Bills
here to make it -a accomplished fact
that that should ',e so? I am saying,
Gentlemen, when this Bill goes into
Committee stage c; in debate here those
of you who.consider it well will see that
the first two parts of section 15C (a)
should be removed: that page 5, clause
5 about Secret Be i.lot and the attitude
of the Registrar shl:uld be removed and
that further the li e of trade unionism
-Obstruction to Registration-is not
properly put. The old Ordinance should
have remained. In less than 3 years we
have 2 amendments. Of course we are
marching on but we should march on
with the same momentum as the laws
we make with the practical action gain-
ed in the community as to the 3ise of
trade unionism. In actual practice trade
unionism in this country is non-existent
so far as protection of trade in trade
and industry is concerned and the regis-
tration given by the Government. The

most they do is to register these unions,
make .a catalogue of impositions to some
office, as to the Registrar General. Now
this Bill goes so much further, as the
Collosus of Rhodes leaping on with great
legs, telling you that the Registrar Gen-
eral should be -the only person to have
a say. Now as far as .appeals are con-
cerned not even the Supreme Court, no-
thing at all, must intervene in that pow-
er given to this Registrar General. Where
does this come from? It dropped out of
the clouds? Well, these are the sections
we will deal with and that is what I
have to say.
Whether you Gentlemen consider this
Bill at all because it is just a Labour Bill
going to be made to grind up the screws.
of any Union that seems to be marching
on that none, as the Colonial setup,
should march on before the others
though our Constitution should be
one of the most backward in the world;
so we see the same laws being made here.
We are seeing very well that we cannot
march on when one side are ad infinitum
to obstruct anything you can do to ob-
tain peaceful negotiations and the rest--
ignore him throughout. Well, you can-
not force a man to bargain, they say,
but you can see to it when Members of
a Union are known to he in industry
that they are not victimised. At least
you can see to that. There should be
something to be done. So when you des-
troy through fear and intimidation on
the other side, when your hands shall be
tied behind your backs, your industrial
hands shall be tied behind your backs,
while they can victimise .ind throw out,
there is no remedy at all. We see no
remedy like those here only a catalogue
of impositions seeking to stamp out what-
ever vestige of trade unionism still that
pretends to exist.
President, Honourable Members, I beg
to move that this Council resolve itself
into a. Committee 01 the whole House to
consider the Bill clause by clause.
second that.

Question put and agreed.
Council moved into Committee.
Bill considered and referred to a Se-
lect Committee of the House.
Council resumed.
PRESIDENT: Honourable Members, I
have the honour to report that the
Trade Union and Trade Disputes Bill has
been referred to ,a Select Committee of
this House.
to move that the President's report be
second that.
Question put and agreed.
to move the second reading of a Bill for
an Ordinance to amend the Agricultural
Credit Societies Ordinance, 1932.
second that.
Question put and agreed.
Bill read a second time.
to move that the House resolve itself in-
to a Committee of the whole House to
consider the Bill clause by clause.
second that.
Question put and agreed.
Council moved into Committee.
Bill left in Committee for certain
amendments to be made,
Council resumed.
PRESIDENT: Honourable Members, I
have to report that the Agricultural
Credit Sccieties 3ill was left in Commit-
tee for certain amendments to be ef-
tp move that the President's report be
second that.
Question put and agreed.


HON. ACTING CROWN ATTORNEY: Mr. [Note: Speeches on the adjournment
President, Hon. Members, I beg to move were made by the Honourable H. F.
the adjournment of this House sine die. Young, E. T. Joshua, J. A. Baynes, L. C.
HON. COLONIAL TREASURER: I beg 'to Latham but owing to a mishap these
second that. speeches, which were taken by the Re-
PRESnErNT: Any debate on the .ad- cording Machine, were erased.]

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