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Group Title: Official gazette, Barbados
Title: The official gazette
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Title: The official gazette
Physical Description: v. : ill. ; 33-42 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Barbados
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: BridgetownBarbados Published by authority
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Subject: Law -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Genre: periodical   ( marcgt )
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General Note: Caption title.
General Note: Supplements issued for some of the numbers.
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Bibliographic ID: UF00076861
Volume ID: VID00118
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notis - AFC6434

Table of Contents
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    Supplement: House of assembly debates for 30th August, 1968
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    Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 42; S.I. 111: Hotel aids (Shangri-La Hotel) notice, 1969
        Page B 1
    Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 42; S.I. 112: Civil estab. (gren.) (amend.) (No. 4) order, 1969
        Page B 2
        Page B 3
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Full Text









VOL. CIV.


NO. 53





t fj



(6 312t~f


official


PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY

BRIDGETOWN, BARBADOS, 3RD JULY 1969


TABLE OF CONTENTS
Gazette Notices
Assignment to Ministers of responsibility for
business of the Government...................
Acting Appointment: H. C. Brathwaite as
Assistant Accountant General,
Accountant General's Department ..........
Appointment of Ministers: The Honourable G. G.
Fergusson, M. P., Minister of Trade and
Tourism.........................................
Appointment of Parliamentary Secretaries:
Mr. J. W. Corbin, M.P. to be Parliamentary
Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture etc.
Honourable K. N. R. Husbands, M.P. to be
Minister of Agriculture etc.......................
Honourable A. DaC. Edwards, M.P. to be
Minister of Labour, National Insurance and
Housing..............................................


617-622

613

613

616
616


Board of Education: Mr. R. M. Nicholson, M.A.
granted leave of absence........................ 613
Executorial: Constance M. Springer................. 616
In the Supreme Court:
Edwards vs Sobers; Hewitt vs Potter........ 615
Patent: "Improvements in or relating to organic
Compounds"......................................... 616
Probate Advertisements dated 27th June, 1969.... 627, 628
Price of Fancy Molasses, Rate of Tax and Rate
of Levy, 1969............ ....... .............. 622
Resignations from the Public Service:
Mrs. C. Martindale and Miss Mignon Brewster,
Staff Nurses................................ 613, 614
Miss Charmaine Clarke and Miss Juliet
Toolsie....................................... 614
Calvin D. Harris, Albert Blackman and
Miss Myrna Callender..................... 614
Resolutions No.38/1969 C. E. (Gen.) (Amend.)
(No. 4) Order, 1969 ............................... 624
No. 39/1969 for $13,000......................... 623
Retirement: No. 257 Police Constable Grantley
L. Riley from the Public Service.............. 614
Statement of East Caribbean Currency Authority
as at 31st May, 1969........ .....* ........I*...., 626
Statement of Coin Continuation Board at 31/5/69 625
Temporary Appointment of Medical Assessor:
Dr, W. Kerr ....... ........ ........ ......... 615
Vacant Post in the Public Service .......... ......... 614

House of Assembly Debates for 30th August, 1968
Legal Supplement
S.I. 1969 No. 111: Hotel Aids (Shangri-La Hotel) Notice,1969
S.I. 1969 No. 112: Civil Estab. (Gen.) (Amend.) (No. 4) Order, 196


NOTICE NO. 450

GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Acting Appointment

H. C. Brathwaite has been appointed to
act as Assistant Accountant General, Accoun-
tant General's Department, with effect from
5th May, 1969 until further notice.

(M. P. 3173/9 Vol. II)



Board of Education

Mr. R, M. Nicholson, M.A., has been
granted three (3) months' leave of absence
with effect from 1st July, 1969, from his
duties as a Member of the Board of Educa-
tion.

CB Vol. 2



Resignation

Mrs .C, Martindale, Staff Nurse, Queen
Elizabeth Hospital, tas resigned from the
Public Servi Slr om 17th June,
1969.. / '

9 (M.P.P., ,-9)


X 3,Pf7ca5
6aQP,


Ztf







OFICA GAZETTE July 3, 1969


GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Resignations

Miss Mignon L. Brewster, Staff Nurse,
Enmore Health Centre, has resigned from
the Public Service with effect from 3rd June,
1969.

(M. P. P. 7174)


Miss Charmaine Clarke, Stenographer,
has resigned from the Public Service with
effect from 1st June, 1969.

(M. P. P. 9127)


Calvin D. Harris, Clerical Officer has
resigned from the Public Service with effect
from 1st June, 1969.

(M. P. P. 7435)


Albert Blackman, Clerical Officer has
resigned from the Public Service with effect
from 1st June, 1969.

(M. P. P. 8606)



Miss Myrna Callender, Clerical Officer,
Registration Office, has resigned from the
Public Service with effect from 19th June,
.1969.

(M. P. P. 8177)


No. 257 Police Constable Grantley L.
Riley to retire with effect from 25th July,
1969.


Appointment of Ministers


In pursuance of section 65 of the Consti-
tution, the Acting Governor-General has made
the following appointments with effect from
1st July, 1969:-

The Honourable G. G. Fergusson, M. P.,
Minister of Trade and Tourism.

The Honourable K. N. R. Husbands, M. P.,
to be Minister of Agriculture, Science
and Technology.

The Honourable A. DaC. Edwards, M. P.,
to be Minister of Labour, National
Insurance and Housing.

(M. P. 8682/18 Vol. IV)



Vacant post in the Public Service

Trainee Instructor, Technical Institute.

Salary: $2,220 x 180 3,960 per annum.

Further particulars may be obtained from
Service Commissions Department,
"Flodden", Culloden Road, St. Michael.

Closing date for applications: 19th July, 1969.

(M. P. 3628/6/1)


Retirement
Miss Juliet Toolsie, Stenographer has
resigned from the Public Service with effect
from 1st May, 1969.


(M. P. P. 9133)


July 3, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


(P. 9196)







Jul 3,6 OFICA GAET


Temporary Appolnmtent of Medical
Assessor
Dr. W. Kerr has been appointed to act as
a Medical Assessor for Dr. H. L. Massiah
who was appointed to act for Dr. E. B. Carter
who is on extended sick leave.

(M. P. 26A2)

NOTICE NO. 451
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE

High Court

No. 230 of 1969

MITCHINSON EDWARD SYLVESTER
HEWITT: Plaintiff


EDITHA POTTER:


Defendant


Any person having any claim, lien or
charge against the property described here-
under shall submit such claim duly authen-
ticated on oath to me on or before the 21st
day of August 1969.


PROPERTY: ALL THAT certain piece
or parcel of land situate at Spruce Street in
the City of Bridgetown and Island aforesaid
containing by admeasurement One thousand
and five square feet of which area forty
eight square feet are contained in the area of
the public road called Chepstow Street here-
inafter mentioned Abutting and bounding on
lands now or late of Augustus Bishop on
lands now or late of Jonah Branch on Chep-
stow Street and on Spruce Street or however
else the same is abutting and bounding.


VALUE OF PROPERTY: $1,650.00

Dated this 21st day of June 1969.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of the Supreme Court.


NOTICE NO. 452

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE

High Court

No. 615 of 1969


LORTON EGBERT EDWARDS:

IVAN CLYDE SOBERS:


Plaintiff

Defendant


The undermentioned property will be set
up for sale at the Registration Office on the
18th day of July 1969 at 2 p.m. and if not
then sold it will be set up for sale on each
succeeding Friday at 2 p.m. until sold.


PROPERTY: ALL THAT Certain piece
or parcel of land situate at Halfmoon Fort
in the parish of Saint Lucy and Island afore-
said formerly believed to contain by estima-
tion One Rood or thereabouts but found by
recent survey to contain by admeasurement
Thirteen thousand five hundred and twelve
square feet or thereabouts (inclusive of One
thousand six hundred and eighty nine square
feet in the area of the Public Road which in-
tersects the said parcel of land) abutting
and bounding on lands of St. Clair Harper on
the sea on lands of Joseph N. Yearwoodon
the Public Road on lands of S. St. John on
lands of one St. John on other lands of St.
Clair Harper and on the Public Road or
however else the same may abut and bound.



UPSET PRICE: $5,911.50

Dated this 21st day of June 1969.

C, A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of the Supreme Court.


July 3, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE







OFFICIAL GAZETTE July 3, 1969


Appoinmtent of Parliamentary
Secretaries
In pursuance of section 73 of the Consti-
tution, the Acting Governor-General has
made the following appointments with effect
from 1st July, 1969:-

Mr. J. W. Corbin, M.P., to be Par-
liamentary Secretary to the Minister
of Agriculture, Science and Tech-
nology.

Senator C. LeR. Brathwaite, to be Par-
liamentary Secretary to the Minister
of Labour, National Insurance and
Housing.

(M. P. 8682/18 Vol. IV)


NOTICE NO. 448 (third publication)

PUBLIC NOTICE


Patents Act, 1903 7, Sec. 10


NOTICE is hereby given that SANDOZ
PATENTS LIMITED of 590 Jarvis Street,
Toronto 5, Ontario, Canada lodged in this
Office an application and Complete specifi-
cation for a patent under the Patent Act
1903 (1903-7), for an invention for "IM-
PROVEMENTS IN OR RELATING TO OR-
GANIC COMPOUNDS"

The said Specification with amendments
has been accepted and is open to public in-
spection at this Office. The proposed amend-
ments are by way of corrections and minor
additions in view of typographical errors.


C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar.


NOTICE NO. 453


NOTICE


Re the estate of

CONSTANCE M. SPRINGER

deceased

NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that all
persons having any debt or claim upon or
affecting the Estate of Constance M. Springer
late of the County of Orange, State of Florida,
United States of America, who died in the
United States of America on the 8th day of
February, 1968, are hereby requested to
send particulars of their claims duly at-
tested to Barclays Bank D. C. O. at Roebuck
Street, Bridgetown, Barbados on or before
the 21st day of August 1969, after which date
we shall proceed to distribute the assets of
the estate among the parties entitled thereto
having regard to the debts and claims only of
which we shall then have had notice, and that
we shall not be liable for assets sodistri-
buted to any person of whose debt or claim
we shall not have had notice at the time of
such distribution.

And all persons indebted to the said
Estate are requested to settle their accounts
without delay.

Dated this 12th day of June 1969.


JULIUS G. PETRUSKA


Executor of the Will of
Constance M. Springer deceased
by his Constituted Attorneys on record,


BARCLAYS BANK D. C. O.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


July 3, 1969









ASSIGNMENT TO MINISTERS OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR BUSINESS
OF THE GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING THE ADMINISTRA-
TION OF DEPARTMENTS OF THE GOVERNMENT

In pursuance of section 72 of the Constitution, the Acting Governor-
General has assigned to the Prime Minister and other Ministers responsibil-
ity for the business of the Government, including the administration of the
departments of the Government, with effect from 1st July, 1969, as follows:-


THE PRIME MINISTER

(a) Cabinet Office

Constitutional matters
Parliamentary matters

(b) Economic Planning Unit

Central Planning Committee
Development and Planning
Industrial Development Corporation
Technical Assistance and Aid Programmes


(c) Establishments Division

Whitley Council


(d) General Office

Archives
Broadcasting
Civil Aviation
Defence
General purposes
Government ceremonial
Press Liaison
Public Relations
The Judiciary
The Air Transport Licepsing Authority
The Barbados Regiment
The Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation
The Civil Aviation Department
The Information Office


July 3, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE






618 OFFICIAL GAZETTE July 3, 1969

(e) Services Commissions Department

) Training Unit

Training in and for the Public Service


THE MINISTER OF FINANCE

Banking and Currency
Central Purchasing
Exchange Control
Public Finance
Taxation

The Accountant General's Office
The Barbados Development Bank
The Auditor General's Department
The Customs Department
The Department of Inland Revenue
The Department of Statistical Service s
The Valuation Division


THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS

Enemy Property
External Affairs:
Liaison with other Governments
Matters relating to Consular affairs
Relief of distressed Barbadians abroad
Repatriation of Barbadians


THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR CARIBBEAN
AND LATIN AMERICAN AFFAIRS

Caribbean and Latin American Affairs of
the Ministry of External Affairs
Deputy Prime Minister


THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS

Citizenship
Deportation
Elections and Electoral Registration






i-Fr1Ar (~.7FTTT


Jul y 3, 1969 '-' '. --


Emergency Relief
Fire Services
Immigration
Lands and Surveys
National Emblems
Police administration, and the
preservation of public order
Printing
Prisons
Security
Town and Country Planning
The Crown Solicitor's Office
The Government Printing Office
The Police Department
The Prisons Department
The Registration Office
The Town and Country Planning Office
The Urban Development Corporation


THE ATTORNEY GENERAL


Principal legal adviser to the Government
Legal Aid
The Legal Department



THE MINISTER OF HEALTH AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT


Community development
Day Nurseries
Health Services
Local Government Services
Medical Services
National Assistance
Old Age Pensions
Probation Services
Sport
Welfare Services

The General Nursing "Council
The Health Centres







620 OFIILGZTEJl ,16


The Lazaretto
The Local Government Commissioner's Office
The Mental Hospital
The National Assistance Board
The National Stadium Corporation
The Probation Office
The Queen Elizabeth Hospital



THE MINISTER OF TRADE AND TOURISM

Industrial Power
Minerals
Tourism
Trade and Commerce

The Natural Gas Corporation
The Public Utilities Board
The Tourist Board



THE MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND WORKS

Electrical Installations
Harbours and Shipping
Highways
Lighthouses
Post Offices
Public Works
Sea ports
Telecommunications
Transport
Water works

The General Post Office
The Government Electrical Inspection Department
The Harbour Advisory Board
The Port Department
The Transport Board
The Waterworks Department


620


July 3, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTEE







July 3, 199OFCAAET


THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION

Ecclesiastical affairs
Education
Film censorship
Industrial schools
Public Libraries
University of the West Indies

The Apprenticeship Board
The Education Board
The Government Industrial Schools
The Higher Education (Loan Fund) Committee
Governing Bodies of Schools (other than Private Schools)


THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY

Agriculture
Co-operatives
Fisheries
Irrigation
Marketing
Meteorology

The Barbados Marketing Corporation
The Agricultural Credit Bank
The Agricultural Development Corporation
The Fancy Molasses Control and Marketing Board
The Scotland District Soil Conservation Board
The Sugar Factory Smoke Control Board
The Sugar Industry Capital Rehabilitation Reserve Board
The Sugar Industry Price Stabilisation Reserve Board
The Sugar Production and Export Control Board
The Water Board
The Meteorological Department


July 3, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE










THE MINISTER OF LABOUR, NATIONAL INSURANCE AND HOUSING

Factory Inspection
Housing
Labour
National Insurance

The Housing Authority
The Labour Department
The National Insurance Board
The Provident Fund Board
The Sugar Factory Workers Severance
Payments Board

(M. P. 8682/18 Vol. IV)




Price of Fancy Molasses, Rate of Tax and Rate of Levy, 1969

The Minister of Agriculture, Science and Technology, on the advice of
the Fancy Molasses Control and Marketing Board, and in accordance with
Regulation 5 of the Barbados Fancy Molasses Production and Export Regula-
tions 1938 as amended has fixed the following rates in respect of fancy
molasses for the crop year 1969:

(i) the rate payable to the producers of fancy molasses during the
crop year 1969 shall be not less than ninety-one (91e) a wine
gallon;

(ii) the rate of tax payable to the Fancy Molasses Control and Market-
ing Board shall be nought point nought five (0.05) of one cent a
wine gallon;

2. Under the authority of section 5 of the Barbados Fancy Molasses
Production and Export (Amendment) Act, 1953 the Fancy Molasses Control
and Marketing Board with approval of the Minister of Agriculture, Science
and Technology has fixed the rate of levy to be raised on all fancy molasses
produced in this Island during the crop year 1969 at nought point nought five
(0.05) of one cent a wine gallon.

Ministry of Agriculture, Science
and Technology,
July, 1969.


(AG 59/1 Vol. III)


July 3, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


622 I







July~~3 3,16 FICA AET


Resolution No. 39/1969.


M.P. 6146/T3.


HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY.


Resolved that tle sum of THIRTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS he
granted from the Consolidated Fund and placed at the disposal of the
Government to supplement the Estimates, 1969-70, Part I Current
as shown in the Supplementary Estimate, 1969-70 No. 4 which forms the
Schedule to this Resolution and that the Senate be invited to concur here-
in, and if concurred in,

Resolved that His Excellency the Governor-General be asked to
assent and take the necessary steps to give effect to this Resolution.
20th June, 1969.

THEODORE BRANCKER
Speaker.

Concurred in by the Senate the 27th day of June, 1969.


I assent,
W. R. DOUGLAS
Acting Governor-General.
30th June, 1969.


E. S. ROBINSON
President.


SCIIEDILE

Supplementary Estimates 1969-70 No. 4


HEAD AND ITEM


CF


\PPROVEn ESTIMATES


Provision in
Approved Estimates
')9-S_70


Statutory
Expendi-
ture


Other
Expendi-
ture


Provision in
Supplementary Esti-
mates Nos. 1-3


Statutory
Expendi-
ture


Other
Expendi-
ture


I


Supplementary
Provision
Required


+


Statutory
Expendi-
ture


Other
Expendi -
ture


-4I 4I


i \RT I CURRENT
ESTIMATES

HEAD 32\ (New)

MINISTRY OF LABOUR,
NATIONAL INSURANCE
AND HOUSING

Item I Travelling
Item 2 Office Expenses
Item 3 Incidentals
Item 4 Furniture and Equip-
ment


.1 __ _ _i_ _I _ _j _


$











800
1200
2000

9000


July 3,1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE






OFFICIAL GZETTE


Resolution No. 38/1969.


M.P. 6146/T3


HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY


Resolved that the Order entitled "The Civil Establishment (General)
(Amendment) (No. 4) Order, 1969" made by the Prine Minister on the 10th
day of June, 1969, under the provisions of section 3 of the Civil Estab-
lishment Act, 1949, be approved.
Resolved that His Excellency the' Governor-General be asked to as-
sent and take the necessary steps to give effect to this Resolution.


Approved by the House of Assembly this twentieth day of June, 1969.


THEODORE BRANCKER
Speaker.


Approved by the Senate the 27th day of June, 1969.


E. S. ROBINSON
President.
I assent,
W. R. DOUGLAS
Acting Governor-General.
30th June, 1969.


i July 3, 1969


,,, *, r;- I -







July3,199 OFICIL GAETT


COIN CONTINUATION BOARD


BRITISH CARIBBEAN CURRENCY BOARD COIN IN CIRCULATION
AS AT 31ST MAY, 1969


(Pursuant to the British Caribbean Currency Agreement 1964, Article 10 (3))


$ f
Antigua ... .. .... 389,600.00

Barbados ... ... ... ... 1,385,639.50

Dominica ... ... ... 172,525.00

Grenada ... ... ... ... 301,375.00

Montserrat ... ... ... 38,250.00

St. Kitts/Nevis/Anguilla ... ... 182,400.00

St. Lucia ... ... ... ... 191,700.00

St. Vincent ... ... ... 161,600.00

Guyana ... ... .. ... 460,217.00

Trinidad & Tobago ... ... 928,821.00


"Proof Sets"


2,823,089.50



1,389,038.00

4,212,127.50

1,870.00

$4,213,997.50


N. L. SMITH
Acting Executive Commissioner
Coin Continuation Board.


July 3, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE











EAST CARIBBEAN CURRENCY AUTHORITY

ASSETS AND LIABILITIES AS AT 31ST MAY, 1969


LIABILITIES


Demand Liabilities:


EC $


EC $


Notes in Circulation 43,394,797


Bankers' Deposits

Bankers' Balances


International
Organizations


34,330,000


1,475,272


500,327 79,700,396


General Reserve ...


ASSETS
External Assets:
Current Accounts and
Money at Call in London


United Kingdom Treasury Bills


Other United Kingdom
Government Securities



Commerical Banks' Balances*


EC $
35,807,947


23,290,410



18,898,975



1,819,196


.. 306,586 Government Local Debentures


Other Liabilities


Local Treasury Bills


Other Assets


EC$84,769,436


EC $


79,816,528



2,607,050

1,478,500


867,358
EC$84,769,436

(Proportion of external assets to
demand liabilities 100.14%)
* Convertible into sterling on demand.

N. L. SMITH
Acting Managing Director.










PROBATE ADVERTISEMENTS

PUBLIC NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that applications have been made
for the following Grants of Probate and Administration namely :-

PROBATE of the Will dated the 15th day of September, 1967 of ROSETTA ALESTRA
DOWNES late of Wildey Road in the parish of Saint Michael in this Island who died
on the 16th day of November, 1967, by EDNA GWENDOLYN DOWNES, one of the
Executricies named in the Will of the said deceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the 1lth day ofMay, 1968 of LEMUEL ALPHONSO GRANNUM
late of Barbarees Hill in the parish of Saint Michael in this Island who died on the
14th day of December, 1968, byGLORIA MONTROSE GRANNUM, the sole Executrix
named in the Will of the said deceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the llth day of November, 1960 of BENJAMIN ARTHUR
LOVELL late of this Island who died on the 21st day of August, 1966, by DAVID
ASHBY and CLIFFORD ASHBY, the Executors named in the Will of the said de-
ceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the 14th day of June, 1962 of THERESA BRATHWAITE late of
Church Hill in the parish of Christ Church in this Island who died on the 7th day of
December, 1964, by LEOTTA LAYNE, one of the Executors named in the Will of the
said deceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the 13th day of August, 1965 of MOSES EVERSLEY SAVOURY
late of Blades Hill in the parish of Saint Philip in this Island who died on the 17th
day of May, 1969, by EDWARD REECE, the sole Executor named in the Will of the
said deceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the 30th day of July, 1955 of CHARLES WILKINSON
CUMBERBATCH late of Ivy Road in the parish of Saint Michael in this Island who
died on the 19thdayof November, 1967, by NAN FLORA COLLINS nee NAN FLORA
CUMBERBATCH, one of the Executors named in the Will of the said deceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the 22nd day of February, 1962 of BEATRICE BULIS WELD
late of Grazettes in the parish of Saint Michael in this Island who died on the 27th
day of May, 1968, by NOEL GRAY WILKIE and OLIVER VALENTINE CHANDLER,
the Executors named in the Will of the said deceased.

LETTERS OF ADMINISTRATION to the Estate of ALEXANDER THEOPHILUS MASON
late of Marley Vale in the parish of Saint Philip in this Island who died on the 22nd
day of February, 1969, by MAY GWENDOLYN MASON, widow of the said deceased.


July 3 ,1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE











PROBATE ADVERTISEMENTS Cotin~ed'


LETTERS OF ADMINISTRATION to the Estate of WINSTON ROY SMALL late of Halls
Road in the parish of Saint Michael in this Island who died on the 18th day of Janu-
ary, 1969, by CARMEN LEOTTA SMALL, widow of the said deceased.

LETTERS OF ADMINISTRATION to the Estate of HUTSON ALLAN WOOD late of Buck-
ingham Road, Bank Hall in the parish of Saint Michael in this Island who died on the
2nd day of February, 1968, by FLORENCE AGNES HAYNES, sister of the said de-
ceased.


LETTERS OF ADMINISTRATION to the Estate of EGLON GIBSON late of Lower Estate
in the parish of Saint George in this Island who died on the 23rd day of June, 1968,
by IRIS HOLDER, mother of the said deceased.


LETTERS OF ADMINISTRATION CUM TESTAMENTO ANNEXO to the Estate of HELEN
TAYLOR also known as ELLEN AUGUSTA VIRGINIA TAYLOR late of Saint Cath-
erines in the parish of Saint Philip in this Island who died on the 28th day of Sept-
tember, 1966, by DEANIS LEOTTA BRATHWAITE, daughter and a benificiary of
the said deceased.

UNLESS CAVEAT is lodged within fourteen days from the date of this Advertise-
ment with the Registrar of the Supreme Court through whom the abovenamed applications
have been made Probate and Administration will be granted accordingly.

Dated this 27th day of June, 1969.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar.


Government Printing Office.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


July, 3, 1969











THE





House of Assembly Debates




(OFFICIAL REPORT)


SECOND SESSION OF 1966 71


HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
Friday, 30th August, 1968

Pursuant to the adjournment, the House of As-
sembly met at 10.15 a.m. o'clock today.

PRESENT

Mr. L. E. SMITH, J.P.; Hon. C. E. TALMA, (Minister
of Health and Community Development); Hon. J. C. TUDOR,
M.A., (Leader of the House); Mr. J. W. CORBIN, J.P.; Hon.
G. G. FERGUSSON, (Minister of Trade, Tourism, Co-opera-
tives and Fisheries); Mr. R. ST.C. WEEKES, J.P.; Mr. W. R.
LOWE, J.P.; Mr. L. A. LYNCH,J.P.; Hon. N. W. BOXILL,
(Minister of Communications and Works); Hon. A. DaC.
EDWARDS, (Minister of Agriculture, Labour and National
Insurance); Sir G. H. ADAMS, C.M.G., Q.C., B.A., D.C.L.
(Hon.), (Leader of the Opposition); His Honour G. E.
SARGEANT, (Deputy Speaker); Mr. C. A. E. HOPPIN, J.P.;
Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS, M.A.

Prayers were read.

PAPERS LAID

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on be-
half of the Hon. and Learned Prime Minister, Minis-
ter of Finance and Ministerof External Affairs,I am
commanded to lay the following :-

The Caribbean Free Trade Association (Origin
of Goods) (Amendment) Regulations 1968.

The Caribbean Free Trade Association (Origin
of Goods) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations, 1968.

On my own behalf I am commanded to lay the
following:

Report of the Prisons for the year 1963.

Reports on Vital Statistics and Registrationsfor
the Years 1964 and 1965.


GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on be-
half of the Hon. and Learned Prime Minister, Minis-


ter of Finance and Ministerof External Affairs,I beg
to give notice of the following:-

A Resolution to place the sum of $5,910 at the
disposal of the Government to supplement the Esti-
mates 1968-69, Part I '- Current as shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 28 which form
the Schedule to the Resolution.

A Resolution to place the sum of $100,000 at the
disposal of the Government to supplement the Esti-
mates 1968-69, Part II Capital as shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 29whichform
the Schedule to the Resolution.

A Resolution to place the sum of $2,272 at the
disposal of the Government to supplement the Esti-
mates 1968-69, Part I Current as shownin the Sup-
plementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 30 which form
the Schedule to the Resolution.

With respect to Resolutions Nos. 1 and 3, Ibeg
to give notice of my intention to move the House into
Committee of Supply at its next meeting to deal with
these two Resolutions.

With respect to Resolution No. 2 for$100,000, it
is the intention of the Minister of Communications
and Works to ask leave later in today's sitting to depl
with this in all its stages. I believe copies of this
Resolution have already been circulated.

Mr. HINDS entered the Chamber and took his seat.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' NOTICES

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I
beg to give notice of the following Resolution:-

This House, in view of the long delay in the pub-
lication of the Official Gazettes andof the consequent
lack by the public of reports of debates of this As-
sembly, strongly urges the Governmentto send down
to it a money Resolution providing for an increase in
the staff of the Government Printery;

This House is further of the opinion that the
price of the Official Gazette is extremely high and
should be reduced in order that it may reach a great
number of persons.


I- I -








2036


Mr. SMITH: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Ihandedintwo,
Reaoludoa. I do not know if they are yet ready.

Ho. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I beg to
move tat Item No. 6 be taken as the first Order of
the Day.

IHa. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I apo-
logise to the House for a remissness on my part. I
had, as you may recall, said that we would be meet-
ing at 10 o'clock and I would move the suspension of
Standing Orders so that we could have lunch earlier,
and I had also given the assurance that Private Mem-
bers' Business would be taken in its due time. I had
forgotten to move that motion before I moved the
motion for Government Business; so I am asking
leave of the House to do it now.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Hon. Leaderof the
House is asking leave to move for the suspension of
certain Standing Orders at this time, and unless
there is any objection, leave will be granted.

There being no objection, leave is granted the
Hon. Minister.

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. DeputySpeaker,Ibeg to
move that Standing Orders Nos. 5, 14, 16,18, 19, 40
and 45 be suspended for the remainder of today's
sitting.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolvedjn the affirmative
without division.

Mr. YEARWOOD entered the House and took his seat.

10.25 a.m.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I rise to ask leave to
take charge of this Resolution which stands in the
name of the Hon. and Learned Prime Minister.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. member is
asking leave to take charge of this Resolution which
stands in the name of the Hon. and Learned Prime
Minister, and if there is no objection, leave will be
granted. (After a pause). There being no objection,
leave is granted. The hon. member may proceed.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
it is well known that Barbados is an agricultural
community, and the Government is placing emphasis
on agricultural diversification. The mainstay of the,
economy of this country is sugar, but no one knows
what will be the future of sugar ten or fifteen years
from now; therefore, the Government has embarked


on a policy of agricultural diversification.
If we are to diversify agriculture, the farmers
when they are advised by the Ministry of Agriculture
to grow certain crops, have got to be assured of
some type of reasonable market for them; therefore
the existence of the Barbados Marketing Corporation
plays a very important role in agriculture in Bar-
bados. I should like hon. members to know that the
Barbados Marketing Corporation Act provides for
the establishment of this Corporation, and the main
role of the Corporation is to stimulate, facilitate and
improve the production, marketing and processing
of produce in the Island particularly for the benefit
of the producer, and also to secure the most favour-
able arrangements for the purchase, handling, trans-
portation, storage, exportation, shipping, marketing
and sale of the produce.

Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, let us face facts. The
Barbados Marketing Corporation has had its troubles;
it has had its teething difficulties. It was established;
it was something new to the country and let us even
say that it has fallen into wrong hands. Some of the
early people connected with the administration of the
B.M.C. were not as knowledgeable as one would have
expected, and therefore we have had failures at the
B.M.C. Unfortunately, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the fail-
ures at the B.M.C. have resulted in the loss of a
great deal of money, but the intention is still there -
the intention to assist the farmers of this country.
The pivot around which agriculture must spin is the
B.M.C.. We admit its failures andwe hope that there
will be a better future for the B.M.C.; and in order
for there to be a better future for the B.M.C., much
depends on the co-operation of the farmer; it calls
for the co-operation of all Barbadians. It depends
on and it calls for the co-operation of the farmer; it
calls for the co-operation of the merchant and it
calls, most of all for the co-operation of members
of this Legislature, especially the members of the
Opposition. I am not going to say that there were
not failures. I know that members of the Opposi-
tion will say: "Well, look, the B.M.C. has thrown
away money". Everybody knows this, but are we going
to place the farmers of this country first or the few
dollars which the B.M.C. has thrown away first?
I say, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that it is for us to put the
interest of the farmers of this country first, and if
the interest of the farmers of this country is put
first, then the B.M.C. must be re-financed.

Earlier this year or late last year, the decision
was taken by the B.M.C. to bring in from Canada
consultants to advise on the operation, administra-
tion and financing of the B.M.C. It cost us a great
deal of money $57,000 Canadian -to bring in these
consultants. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am prepared to
state that the consultants have done a good job; they
have made recommendations and I am satisfied that,
if those recommendations of the consultants are
carried out, the B.M.C. can made a success. It can
perform the functions for which it has been estab-
lished. I should just like to warn and to remind the
members on the other side that they were in favour
of the establishment of the B.M.C. because they
started the wheels rolling on the establishmentof the








2037


B.M.C.; therefore, they saw the need for the B.M.C.
The pointwhich I am trying to make is that the B.M.C.
is nothing bad. It is in the interest of the farmer of
this country. One cannot tell the farmer to grow
carrots if there is no outlook for them; one cannot
tell the farmer to grow beets if the farmer does not
know that he is going to get a fair return, a guaran-
teed market and a guaranteed price for his produce.
As I said earlier,the only way in which we can have
agricultural diversification in this country is to get
the B.M.C. moving.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, since the establishment
of the B.M.C., we have been able to find markets
abroad and we are even looking for further markets.
We have been able to export yams and we have been
able to export even breadfruit. We have been able
to export flying fish to help the fishing industry in this
country, and private enterprise has benefited con-
siderably from the existence of the B.M.C. Sir, the
B.M.C. has thrown away money. We are $1.35 mil-
lion in debt today, but I am prepared to state that the
benefits accruing to this country since the establish-
ment of the B.M.C. and since the B.M.C. has found
certain markets the benefits accruing to the coun-
try far outweight the losses of the B.M.C. It is true
that before the establishment of the B. M. C. you could
not buy a flying fish inthe United Kingdom from Bar-
bados. Today, the farmer can afford to grow yams
and sell them in large quantities at approximately
eight cents per pound for export, and they will get
more favourable prices for all their locally-produced
agricultural commodities.
10.35 a.m.

This has been accelerated as a result of the es-
tablishment of the B.M. C. Whilst we look at the faults
of the B.M. C., we have to look at the good things done
by the B.M.C. The fishing industry has had a shot
in the arm through the establishment of the B.M.C.
Unfortunately, this year we did not catch as many
fish as we would have liked to catch. We had 140
tons of space made available at the B.M.C. for
fishermen in order that they could store their fish
and get a reasonable price. This is the first time in
the history of the fishing industry that we have had
so much storage space forfishermeninthis country.

Sir, the fishermen in this country have been suf-
fering severe losses through making catches and hav-
ing to throw them back into the sea, because it did
not pay them to bring them to the land. That is what
took place in this country before the establishment
of the B.M.C. Fishermen invested a lot of money in
fishing boats, and then they could not even pay for
them. The loans have had to be written off, Mr.
Deputy Speaker. With the provision made at the
B.M.C., improved facilities, and the B.M.C. ac-
cepting the advice given by the consultants this
year and late last year, I can assure hon. members
that this situation will not arise again. The fisher-
men in this country will be happy, and the farmers
will be even happier.

Another thing, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that one has
to look at. Before the establishment of the B.M.C.,


what happened when a farmer planted potatoes? All
of us know that because of the policy of the Govern-
ment and the legislation introduced some time during
the war years, around 1944, a certain amount of food
crops had to be grown compulsorily by the farmers
in this country. This was done by a sort of Compul-
sory Order. All of us know thatoverthe years many
a planter has been planting things like sweet potatoes
because he was compelled to do it by the Compulsory
Order. What have they been doing? After two or three
months they have been ploughed back into the land.
Why? Because the planter could not get them sold.
Because of the establishment of the B.M.C. the price
controls have been taken off, and the B.M.C. acts
as a stabiliser of prices for food crops in this coun-
try. This fact cannot be denied. Whilst we look at the
faults of the B.M.C., there has still been some good
in it. It has done some good to the country, and it
has been doing some good to the community not only
in Barbados, but outside the country. Our 66,000
Barbadians in the United Kingdom who have been ac-
customed to eating yams and flying fish can still eat
them, because we export these commodities to them
through the B.M.C. In the United States of America
and in Canada, Barbadians can also get them.

Let us be realistic and face facts. Iam not say-
ing that all has been well atthe B.M.C. I would never
say that. I am going to say and pledge that we will
have most things going well at the B. M. C. in the near
future. This can only be achieved if the House sees
fit to pass the Resolution before us at the moment.
From the inception of the B.M.C., for some unknown
reason, it was not properly capitalised. It did not
have proper operating capital. It was similar to the
C.B.C. Over and above the fact that it did not have
operating capital, it was saddled with a big burden.
It was made responsible for carrying the weight of the
capital structure and servicing the loans for capital
construction.

Now, I want to ask hon. members, through you,
Sir, one question. If the hon. senior member for St.
Joseph, for example, wanted to 'fix-it-right' at
Tweedside Road, he could not go there and provide
a structure without capital to order and to purchase
parts to sell you and me. Proper financial arrange-
ments would have had to be made for this, and this
was one of the reasons why the B.M.C. failed. The
loans that the B. M.C. had to service were too heavy.
It could not service these loans; the interest on the
loans went up; and ithadto add interest to the loans
and that sort of thing. It was not making the turn-
over to enable it to service the loans.

Those are the things at which one has to look,
Mr. Deputy Speaker. The B.M.C. was established
to stimulate, facilitate and to improve the production
marketing and processing of produce in this country,
particularly for the benefit of the producer or far-
mer. I happen to know that many a farmer has gone
to the B.M.C. with produce which the B.M.C. knew
it could not get off, and the B.M.C. had to buy it. If
the average farmer went to the B.M.C. with beans
which were too hard to market, the B.M.C. would
still buy them. Do you know why? It was a means of








2038


*encouraging the farmer. Now I am not saying that
the farmer is at fault for having produced beans
that are too hard, okras that are too hard, carrots
that are not good, and for growing the wrong type of
carrots.

I want to make this point: advice to the farmers
depends on the Extension Staff of the Ministry of
Agriculture. Hon. members are aware that over the
years there has been a great shortage of personnel
and trained technicians in the Ministry of Agricul-
tuee. In order to be good Extension Officers, you
must have training.
10.45 a.m.

If we look back at the situation in the Ministry
of Agriculture over the years, we have had posts
established which we have had tremendous diffi-
culty in filling. We found it extremely difficult to
find trained persons to take up these posts; there-
fore our Extension service was not what we would
have liked it to be. The situation, Mr. Deputy
Speaker, tends tof change today. We have been able
to recruit a better type of staff, and we have been
able to retain some of the staff which we have re-
cently recruited.

One of the failures in the Ministry of Agricul-
ture was the fact that we did not have an Information
Section. Today we have an Information Section. We
have recruited a person from the University of the
West Indies in the name of Mr. Brathwaite who is
in charge of our Information section, brochures are
produced, and research information carried out in
the Ministry of Agriculture is disseminated through
the Information Department of the Ministry of Agri-
culture to the farmers, andwhat obtained four or five
years ago will no longerobtain in respect of advice
to the farmers. We are therefore expecting the
farmer today to produce better beans; we expect the
farmer to move away from ox-cart carrots which are
very large carrots, but are not the best type because
they do not last. These are the things you find the
Ministry of Agriculture advising farmers on today.
The doors of the Ministry of Agriculture are open
to any farmer; telephones are available to any far-
mer, and any time afarmertelephones the Ministry
of Agriculture today for advice, an Extension Officer
is sent to him. Therefore the farmer is producing
a better commodity than he was producing formerly,
and we do not expect the B.M.C. to be placed in the
situation it was placed in before when the farmer did
not have proper advice and was not producing a pro-
per grade of commodity which would last and be
suitable for export.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, there was no Liaison Ser-
vice. Today the situation is different. Therefore
on that alone we can expect an improvement in the
Barbados Marketing Corporation. I go a little further,
Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Barbados Marketing Cor-
poration started off with an Agricultural Economist
as Manager, Mr. Alleyne a man very well quali-
fied in Agricultural Economics, but with no experi-
ence in administration. The consultant made certain
recommendations and most of these have already


'been met. There is now a Marketing Manager with
years of experience in marketing. Some of the peo-
ple who were first appointed by the B.M.C. and knew
little or nothing about what was called for have been
sent back to the GovernmentDepartments fromwhich
they had been seconded, and wherever possible they
have been replaced, and I am satisfied that the re-
placements are doing a good job.

When it comes to thefts at the B.M.C., we have
checked up on that, and afterwe have the B.M.C. re-
financed, we can with some of the funds provide
greater security there. As I saidearlier, Mr. Deputy
Speaker, the B.M.C. needs the help of members of
the Legislature; so let us give it, remembering that
when we give our help to the Corporation, we are not
giving it to the members of the Board or to the mem-
bers of the Democratic Labour Party, but we are
giving it to the farmers of this country and in par-
ticular to the people of Barbados in general.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am asking the House to
approve today of a loan of $1.35 million to re-finance
the Barbados Marketing Corporation. I remember
that when mention was made of this amount last
Tuesday there was a shout, butIwouldlike to advise
hon. members that most of this money has already
been approved by the Legislature. I saidearlierthat
loans were made at the B.M.C. since 1964 which were
due this year, but the loanswere not repaid because
the B.M.C. could not service them. I should like to
give hon. members a break-down of these loans. In
March 1964, there was a loan of $150,000 guaranteed
by this House from the Canadian Imperial Bank of
Commerce; In march of the same year there was
a loan of $184,000 from the Bank of Nova Scotia. In
May 1965 there was a loan of $100,000 from the
Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce. InApril,1966
there was a loan of $130,000 from the Canadian Im-
perial Bank of Commerce. In July 1966 there was a
further loan of $445,000 from the Canadian Imperial
Bank of Commerce. In August 1966 there was a loan
of $175,000 from the Bank of Nova Scotia. In July
and August 1966 there was a loan of $320,000 from
the Port Department. In October 1966 there was a
loan of $137,700 from the Bank of Nova Scotia. This
money has not been repaid, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and
most of it is now due. This was for capital expendi-
ture.


Mr. Deputy Speaker, if you total these amounts
of money which have not been repaid but which have
been approved by this Legislature, you will see that
we are not in truth and in fact asking for a new loan
of $1.35 million. What we are doing here is assist-
ing the B.M.C. to repay these outstanding loans by
way of guarantee of a further loan and to give them
operating capital, so that when the farmer carries
his produce to the B.M.C. they would not be able to
say that they do not have the money to pay for his
carrots, cabbage or beans. This has been happening
over the past two or three months. Provided they
have carried out the advice of the Ministry of Agri-
culture and the Barbados Marketing Corporation and
their produce is to the standard, they are not going








2039


to be turned back when this House has approved of
this loan.
10.55 a.m.

Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the only paying con-
cern today operated by the B.M.C. is the establish-
ment of the shrimp processing plant. A lot of this
money which we are asking for today is to repay a
loan for the building of this shrimp plant or the sec-
tion for the processing of shrimp. It was estimated
at first that the amount of money requiredfor setting
up the shrimp section at the B.M.C. wouldbe $275,000
and it has eventually cost $410,000. I should like to
inform hon. members that although we have spent
$410,000 in constructing this section, every month
the B.M.C. receives in the vicinity of $30,000 from
the shrimp industry. They are now extending their
facilities there, and three more counters will be
in operation next month. These three counters will
provide employment for another thirty-three women
in this country, bringing the total number of women
employed in the shrimp industry to some 200. It has
cost approximately $10,000 to provide one job in in-
dustry today, according to the statistics. We have
spent $410,000 in a year employing 200 women, be-
sides men, besides the technicians and other people
who are employed, and adding more to this, we are
bringing hard currency into the country as a result
of the establishment of the shrimp industry in this
country. I want to make it abundantly clear that al-
most half million dollars of this money, namely,
$410,000 which I am asking the House today to ap-
prove, is going into a section of the B.M.C. which is
not only currently financing the running of the B. M. C.
to what extent it is being run, but also providing
employment in this country for 200 women. My col-
league on my right has just remindedme that it is a
big boost to tourism the advertising which we get
from it when we sell on the U.S. market the Bar-
bados shrimp.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do not think that I have
any difficulty in making out a case here for assis-
tance for the B.M.C.; I do not think that I have got
to convince members on the other side any more.
We are going to set aside what has happened in the
past; we know that those things have happened, but
let us set them aside and decide now to re-finance
the B.M.C. What I am doing now is asking hon. mem-
bers on the other side to assist me in making a suc-
cess of the B.M.C. We want re-financing and I am
asking hon. members to do it. We do not want anything
of the old and that is why we are doing it. I could
have come here today and asked hon. members to
approve a loan of $300,000, but I do not want to be
associated with anything that has happened in the
past. We want to start on a new page and we want to
wipe the slate clean, pay off all the debts of the
B.M.C. and have capitalwithwhich to operate, and we
are going to be responsible for apart of the payment.
If you note in this Resolution, the Government is
holding the responsibility for $700,000 of this money
to be paid over a period of ten years. Mr. Deputy
Speaker, do you know why? It is not that we are en-
couraging the B. M. C. to throw away money, but we
are satisfied that if we ask the taxpayers of this


country to spend $700,000 in the agricultural indus-
try of this country, in the end the B.M.C. will bring
in far more than $700,000. In a few years to come
we will get our diversification programme off the
ground, and the only means of getting it off the ground
is to have the B.M.C. operating satisfactorily and
efficiently. If that is done, the $700,000 which the
taxpayers of this country will be repaying, will be
wiped out and instead of having a deficit, there will
be a surplus.

The B.M.C. over the next ten years will repay
the remainder of the money. It is always better to be
able to repay a debt in one corner rather than try to
put a piece here, a piece yonder and a piece in the
next place. What has the situation been at the B.M.C. 7
The B.M.C. has been owing small debts which it could
not meet. You can imagine a situation where a Gov-
ernment-run Corporation finds it difficult to find
$400,000 or $500,000 to meet an obligation, and all
we are doing here is asking hon. members to let us
have the B.M.C. running how a Government corpora-
tion should be run that is to say, efficiently. Have
it started on a clean page and be able to be of some
benefit to the farmers of this country in particular,
and to the people of the countryingeneral. As I said
before, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do not think I have
any difficulty in convincing hon. members on the
other side that this is necessary. In the circum-
stances, I think that if I continue any longer I will be
wasting time. Hon. members ought to be satisfied
after I have explained the whole thing to them. They
have read the Addendum which is self-explanatory.
It is a very long Addendum, hon. members have had
time to study it and therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I
beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I. beg to second that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, it might be un-
fortunate that the Minister who has just sat down,
happened to be the Minister of Agriculture with the
Haggatts Factory coming under his control at the
same time as the Barbados Marketing Corporation. I
have sat here and I have listened to him quite at-
tentively, and the argument which he has used in sup-
port of the vegetable farmer, if he had attempted in
the remotest manner to use that argument in favour
of the cane farmer, Haggatts Factory would have
been in an entirely different role today. I cannot ac-
cuse the Minister of speaking through one corner
of his mouth in support of the vegetable farmer, and
through the other corner of his mouth agaipt the
cane farmer in respect of the Haggatts Factory. When
the Resolution to support the Caribbean Broadcasting
Corporation came before the House, I listenedto the
Prime Minister and he advanced about two or three
ways and means whereby the operations of Limited
Liability Companies or Corporations whatever you
may call them, can raise money to finance the
operation. All of these avenues which the Prime
Minister gave to this House onthat occasion are also
available to the Barbados Marketing Corporation to
find money to finance themselves, although
we have learnt from the Ministerwho has just
sat down that the best way to pay old debts is to








2040
i


start new ones. That is the Government's policy
as enunciated by the Minister. The best way to stop
a small hole is to open a bigger one. That is what
the Minister has just said here.

On the whole, we are just hearing the phrase,
"agricultural diversification" being hackneyed about
without any real constructive meaning or application
being put thereto.
11.05 a.m.

If the Government really and truly wanted to
succeed with the Barbados Marketing Corporation,
there is one avenue open to them. They could launch
a giant Co-operative, and all of the farmers the Min-
ister has just told us about would become part and
parcel of the undertaking with aview to guaranteeing
the success of the Co-operative movement. On the
other hand, they could form a company and offer
shares to the farmers. There, again, the farmers
would have more than a selling interest in the under-
taking. They, too, would be part and parcel of the
undertaking, and they would have to look every day
and every night, for that matter, to see that their
own interest is protected.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, since the Minister is pledg-
ing that the B.M.C. will succeed if it is now re-
financed as he has suggested, why does he not offer
shares? Why does he not take the cue from private
enterprise and invite private persons to take shares
in an industry that will pay off inthe long run? Peo-
ple are looking about today for investments. If the
Government knows that the B.M.C. is bound to suc-
ceed, I am sure we need go no further than on Mt.
Hillaby to overlook the Scotland District and the St.
Thomas areas where these vegetable crops can be
grown successfully. I am sure that before the Min-
ister reaches back to the bottom he will have all the
support that is necessary, providedhe canguarantee
the success that he has triedto express to this House
today.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is true that the future of
sugar is uncertain. It might not be as uncertain as
members of the Government would have us to be-
lieve. Nevertheless, there are lots of other things
that are uncertain, and the Government is still pur-
suing them. Now, the Government's policy is geared
somewhat towards this agricultural diversification.
I have learnt recently, for instance, that the Agri-
cultural Development Corporation at Graeme Hall
planted fields of potatoes in September of last year;
it did not reap them on time or perhaps, the Bar-
bados Marketing Corporation was not in a position
to market them, and the potatoes have since been
harvested to feed pigs at Culloden Farm. You will
understand why the B.M.C. must have all of these
troubles. You might find that private interest, at
times is cutting across the policy enunciated by
Government in agricultural development.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: On a point of order. Mr.
Deputy Speaker, with the new element in the House of
Assembly, we are accustomed to all kinds of slan-
derous statements being made. The hon. junior


member for St. Peter made a statement to the effect
that potatoes from Graeme Hall are fed to pigs at
Culloden Farm.

I happen to be the resident of a Government pro-
perty called Culloden Farm; I happen to keep pigs; I
have never fed a pigwith potatoes at any time in my
life, and certainly none from any Government pro-
perty or from Graeme Hall. Therefore since the as-
persion is that I have beenusingGovernmentfodder,
or something like that, to feed my animals, I am
calling on the hon. member to withdraw that state-
ment because it is completely and utterly untrue.
He ought to know more about pigs, but he knows
very little because you can starve pigs by feeding
them on potatoes, although it is a Barbados super-
stitution that potatoes are goodforpigs. Ihave never
fed a pig in my life on potatoes. I ask the hon. mem-
ber to withdraw that statement, because that is an
aspersion that I could not allow to remain on the
records of this House.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, if you were
to call for the report, nowhere can it be found that I
said that the hon. member who has just sat down has
fed pigs at Culloden Farmwithpotatoes. I never said
so.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I was myself a bit
worried when I heard the remark from the hon.
member, and I would be very happy if he would with-
draw the words used: "That potatoes from Graeme
Hall were used to feed pigs at Culloden Farm." I was
unhappy about it. Would you please withdraw the re-
mark?

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, if I said that
potatoes from Graeme Hall were used to feed pigs
at Strathclyde......

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have asked the hon.
junior member for St. Peterto withdraw the remark.

Mr. HINDS: I withdraw it. I am glad I did not
say that they were usedto feedpigs at Strathclyde; if
not, I would have been called upon to withdraw that.
I have withdrawn it, but this is what I will say: I
have never suggested that the potatoes were stolen,
or unlawfully come by, nor had I suggestedthat they
were taken there during the night.
11.15 a.m.

Believe me, Sir, it is not easy for hon. mem-
bers to stand up here and address the Chair. Mr.
Deputy Speaker, the B.M.C. has had teething trou-
bles. We are prepared to make out a case on this
side of the House that it will forever have teething
troubles, because many of the persons who have got
to be associated with the operations of the Barbados
Marketing Corporation have not yet cut teeth of
honesty; they have not yet shed their teeth of dis-
honesty, and you will find, Sir, that there are many
people associated with the Barbados Marketing Cor-
poration's operations who can be shielded and pro-
tected by this Chamber, and that is why they will
persist in doing all they have been doing.








2041


Now the Hon. Minister of Agriculture said that
we must put the interest of the farmers first if the
B.M.C. is to succeed in future. He laid emphasis on
the purposes for which the Barbados Marketing Cor-
poration was established. One is to stimulate, faci-
litate and improve the production, marketing and
processing of produce in the Island, particularly for
the benefit of the producer. NowIwonderif the Min-
ister would rise to deny that the B.M.C. in its day-
to-day administrative functions......

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order, I
draw to Your Honour's attention Standing Order No.
29 (5) in relation to the Hon. Leader of the House.
The document which the hon. member is readings of
very doubtful moral value.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I take
his word for it.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I
have drawn to your attention that it is a breach of
the Standing Order.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I should like to draw
to the attention of all hon. members the Standing
Order in question.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Barbados
Marketing Corporation was established particularly
to be of benefit to the producer. I think I have already
paid some attention to the lack of interest Government
has shown in the cane farmers. I had hoped that the
Minister of Agriculture would have been in a better
position to tell us of Government's interest in the
vegetable farmers. He has failed in his attempt
because, as I said, this is no isolated case to which
I will now refer. Plantations in this Islandhave been
marketing yams, potatoes, cucumbers, tomatoes and
other vegetable crops through the Marketing Cor-
poration, but the Corporation was content to employ
a system that if two tons of potatoes went into the
Corporation from an estate, the Corporation and the
Minister can search the books of the B.M.C. and find
this on record, not once ortwice, but dozens of times
was willing to issue two cheques for the payment
of the potatoes. A cheque would be drawn for 1 1/2
tons for the estate concerned and the rest would be
drawn in favour of the man who supplied the yams,
potatoes, cucumbers and tomatoes. So you will see
that the very farmers which the B.M.C. was estab-
lished to assist have complained up and down the
length and breadth of this Island about getting short
weights at the B.M.C.; so they all lost confidence in
the B.M.C. after a time.

Re-financing the Barbados Marketing Corpora-
tion to the tune of $1.35 millionwill not regain for it
the confidence that these farmers have already lost
in it. They have now come upwith a grandiose scheme
to make people believe that in process of time
it will get out of its bad debts, but I am saying,
Sir, that this Resolution will only pass today because
of Government numbers. At some later date we are
going to hear the Minister of Agriculture, if he is
then Minister of Agriculture, again relating to this


House the same sad story about the Marketing Cor-
poration and asking us to forget what has happened
in the past. He will try to hold a bright light before
us, but at the same time he does not have the nerve
to turn to these farmers. In the Minister's own con-
stituency where there is a Cane Farmers' Associa-
tion more active perhaps than in any other parish,
the Minister would not attempt to interest anyof-the
vegetable farmers to invest one dime in the Mar-
keting Corporation. I would say that as soon as bodies
like the Barbados Marketing Corporation and Carib-
bean Broadcasting Corporation find that they have
got to give an account of themselves apart from the
lamentations of the Minister, then some attemptwill
be made to stop pushing their hands this much deep
into the pockets of the unsuspecting taxpayers of this
country.
11.25 a.m.

The Barbados Marketing Corporation spent
$57,000 to pay consultants to advise them whatto do
and how to start off on a new footing, so to speak.
My view is that we have here in Barbados people
enough who have been in the marketing business, the
vegetable production business, and who have been
functioning in every possible avenue of good that the
B.M.C. is expected to operate in. lam saying that all
the expertise that was necessary to get the B.M.C.
on a good and sound footing could have been obtained
right here in Barbados, free, gratis and fornothing.
We, on this side of the House, are saying that the
$57,000 which has been paid out to the consultants -
to tell you what? The smallest shopkeeper in Baxters
Road knows that if today is Friday, Friday night and
Saturday are the biggest days for selling his rum and
he cannot sleep well on Thursday night until he knows
whether he can get enough to send to th& wholesale
merchant tomorrow to be able to stock himself on
Friday evening, to drive through Friday night, Satur-
day and Saturday night, and, to a lesser extent, on
Sunday. That is all the consultants have told us. They
come down and tell us that we have got to get money.
Now tell me; if the Minister of Agriculture was
venturing into any field tomorrow, would he have
taken up $57,000 which he did not have, which did
not belong to him, and say that he is getting advice
on what? that if you are going to start a business
you have got to look for money to put in it? As I
have said, it is a case where the taxpayers have not
yet mustered that amount of courage to rise up in
their own defence in circumstances such as this. That
is all.

The Barbados Marketing Corporation was also
established to secure the most favourable arrange-
ments for the purchase, handling, transportation,
storage, exportation, shipping, marketing and sale
of products. Right in the City of Bridgetownwe have
business people who have been marketing for all their
lives, and who will continue to market much more
than the B.M.C. could everproduce orwillever have
for marketing. If the Minister knows so well that he
is so sure of himself and his Corporation that he will
succeed to such an extent if you now re-finance this
Corporation, and beyond this he told you that that
he is going to re-finance it, by paying off old debts -








2042


.in other words, the $1.35 million is already due and
owing, every penny of the $1.35 million......

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
I did not saythat every pennyis due and owing; I said
that the most of it, and some of it is for operating
capital. As a matter of fact, I pointed out what was
due and owing and I gave the figures.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would be
obliged to the Hon. Minister if he would remind me
as to what portion of this moneywillbe for operating
capital. As soon as he gets the first opportunity, let
him tell this House what portion of this money will
be for operating capital. I well remember that on
Tuesday when the Opposition expressed its unwill-
ingness to go on with this Resolution at such short
notice, we were told from that side of the House that
the money had already been spent. The money had
already been owed away.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, again I saidthatwith respect to
the borrowing, almost all of it has already been ap-
proved by the House. Here today I gave a breakdown
of what money was borrowed from the banks and the
Port Department. I gave the yearinwhichthe money
was borrowed and I said that this moneyis to be re-
paid plus the interest.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, you will re-
member that just a matter of seconds ago, I told
the Minister how grateful I would be to him if he
would seize the first opportunity to tell me or this
Hon. House what sum of this $1.35 million will be
used for operating capital. The opportunity has pre-
sented itself to him in no uncertain terms, and what
did he do? He jumpedup and reminded us that he told
us that in March 1964 he gave us the month, the
date and everything else, but the Minister would not
dare tell us, although he has the opportunity to do so,
what portion of $1.35 million will bemused as opera-
ting capital.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rose to correct the hon. mem-
ber on a certain point. I have the right of reply and if
there are any questions asked, I will reply to them.

Mr. HINDS: I really thought that the Minister
was interrupting me to tell me now what sum is go-
ing to be used for operating capital; but do you know
why he has not told me, Sir? There is no sum for
operating capital. All the B.M.C. intend doing is to
pay off the old debts and the banks will go along ,
allowing them over-drafts. That is all. On Friday
after Friday the B.M.C. has been shuttling between
the banks and other individuals in order to know
where they are going to get money to pay wages at the
end of the week. That is how the B.M.C. has been
operating, like some pork-knocking business around
the street corner.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on
a point of order. The B.M.C. pays itswages and sa-
laries through one bank; so I do not know what the


hon. member means about shuttling between the banks
and other individuals.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister
knows as well as you and I would know that before
the B.M.C. can pay its wages or salaries from a
particular bank, it should first have inside that bank,
either cash or an agreement or arrangement. You
do not pay through a bank like that; you must get
something in the till first. The Minister knows that;
but he is rising in the hope of throwing me off my
stride. Sir, the longer he keeps me on my feet, the
worse it will be for the B.M.C. inthe end, but he has
his numbers. The point I am arguing is this, that with
the marketing experience of the business community
there are people who would perhaps be glad to take
over the B.M.C. and run it without saddling the tax-
payers to the extent to which they are now being
saddled, who would operate it to the benefit in truth
and in fact, not to the total or the particular benefit
of the producer, but also be of some benefit to the
producer.
11.35 a.m.

Why is it that these shipping experts, the ship-
ping magnate, and the people inthe shipping business
who now stand to benefit when we are exporting
yams, flying fish, or breadfruit why is it that
all of these people have not been approached and
brought together to see what concrete suggestions
they would make to put the B.M.C. on a sound foot-
ing without every now and then carrying out, what
we may call, a rape on the taxpayers?

I say that the Minister has a duty to perform.
I am not convinced that the Minister has any confi-
dence whatsoever in the success of the B.M.C.,
even after it has been refinanced. I am not con-
vinced because, as I have said earlier could one
believe for a single moment, bearing inmindthat on
being elected to the House, through a particular
constituency, you are a member of the House and
you must function for the good of the Island as a
whole could the Minister of Agriculture, as the
hon. senior member for St. Andrew, be expected to
have a greater interest in seeing the~Barbados Mar-
keting Corporation succeed than one would expect
him to have in the Haggatts Factory in Scotland, St.
Andrew? Could we expect that of him?
The Minister has never stood upto tellus of any
of these good things that could be done to save Hag-
gatts from going to ruin, or to keep the number of
people who were employed at Haggatts Factory in
employment. The Minister, like some others, can
talk when it suits him, about how many people are
employed in this industry and that industry- and in-
dustry like International Scientific Limited. They
will tell you how many are employed there, but they
do not tell you how many the white men up there kick
and beat, and throw out of the place without a centl I
do not like to mention anything about International
Scientific Limited because the Prime Minister has
friends up there.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, in this Resolutionthe Min-
ister of Agriculture tells us if the Minister wants







2043


to deny this, let him deny it in introducing the
Resolution that the $1.35 million is debt. I am will-
ing to let him examine the records, if possible. I
made notes while the Minister was speaking, and he
told us while addressing this Hon. House today that
the $.1.35 million is debt. He did not tell us that
part of it was operating capital. But he went on to
tell us that the B.M.C. has giventhe fishing industry
a shot in the arm.

Sir, we have some menwho, during these months,
can be seen "graining" fish with some guns, and I
know that when those fellows make a dive the fish
has no arm, but when these fellows get a shock they
will be knocked out. You will really see that the
B. M.C. has given the fishing industry this shot in the
arm that the Minister is talking about. Sir, do you
know that since September, 1964, this Government
have stopped giving loans to fishermen? Since Sep-
tember, 1964, they have not made a single loan to a
fisherman. They do not loan one cent to build boats
or to buy fish pots. The Minister candeny that, if he
wishes. I repeat that since 1964 the Government have
not loaned one boat-owner a penny!

We hear that the fishing industry received a
shot in the arm. Some of the poor fishermen seem
to- havegot shots in both feet and both arms, be-
cause they have to remain on shore. But the good
points of the B.M.C. have to be put before this House.
"The B.M.C. has a stabilising influence onthe price
of food crops in Barbados", says the Minister. I do
not want to go into such details as to the price of
yams, or sweet potatoes, around Cheapside Market
or Fairchild Street Market areas.

What we have learnt from the Minister's mouth
is that the B.M.C. has been buying bad food, bad
supplies, bad carrots, and trying to pass them off
on you and me, and that has been a stabilising in-
fluence on the price of food crops!

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order. Mr.
Deputy Speaker. It is unfortunate that some of us
when we listen do not hear things correctly. I said
that the B.M.C. has, in order to give an incentive to
farmers, been purchasing carrots which were not of
the best quality. I did not say that the carrots were
bad. It is a question of grading, and, after having
bought them, because they were not of the proper
grade, they could not sell them and they spoiled.
11.45 a.m.

This was the case of lots of farmers who did not
have the proper advice at the time. I did not say it is
happening today. They are getting advice through the
Department and are producing a better quality com-
modity.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am going to
leave the Minister alone and not reply to that point
at all. The Minister has just spoken again about the
advice that farmers were not receiving. Before this
Government came into power and the Barbados La-
bour Party held the Government of this country, the
peasant farmers throughout the Island received free,


gratis and for nothing, advice from the Peasant
Agricultural Instructors. I remember T. O. "Tom"
Phillips and others going from village to village in
the parishes instructing the peasant farmers; I re-
member them going to the elementary schools.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
on a point of elucidation, I pointed out to the hon.
member that there has been over the pagt four
years a shortage of trained Agricultural Assistants
to work in the Extension Service, and with the best
will in the worldthree orfourpeople could not do the
job of advising peasant farmers today. The incidence
of planting of food crops today is higher than it was
in the days when the Barbados Labour Party ran this
country. The position then was that most of the land
was planted in sugar cane, and because the type of
cane was not as good as the type that exists today we
were producing the same amount of sugar on more
land; so more land is available today for food crops.
Hence the few advisers which we have had over the
past years were not enough to advise the farmers who
have gone into the production of food crops as effi-
ciently as one would have liked. This is the point I
made, and not that you do not have the officers. We
did not have enough, and we have been having diffi-
culty in recruiting others.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, if it is that we
do not have enough officers today because of an in-
creased number-of peasants growing food crops, one
has got to look at what really is driving some of these
peasants into food crop production. I hardly would
like to mention anything about this 'cane blade'talk,
but what has happened in some respect is this: the
peasants, like the plantations, have been finding it
increasingly difficult year after year to get their
canes reaped. If the plantations that can pay all sorts
of bonuses and profits cannot get their canes reaped,
what do you think of the poorpeasant farmer who has
a quarter of an acre, half an acre, or maybe one or
two acres? He is being forced to do something else,
but the Minister seems not to realise this. In years
past the small peasant farmer who hadwhatwe term
a few cane holes, a quarter of an acre, half an acre
or two or three acres, went betweenthe canes while
they were still growing and reaped crops of cabbage
and cucumbers which he had sown. These did not
prevent his crop from growing, and these are the
vegetables which the Minister is talking about.

What you will find, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that
the poor peasant farmer finds himself inthe position
where instead of reaping sugar crop after a period
of 18 months plus maybe two catch crops during
the period when the canes were low, he is losing
something somewhere and is being forced to con-
centrate on planting vegetable crops which the Mar-
keting Corporation will buy, though they are not up to
the best standards, even if they cannot sell them
afterwards. I am not saying that that is the whole
story surrounding the peasant farmers' activities
today, but it is in very great measure a case in
point.
Just look at how the Democratic Labour Party
started out their Government! Everything they have








2044


ventured into from the time they came into office
was started before they were ready. Here the Minis-
ter is telling us about agricultural diversification. I
am not suggesting that the Minister does not know
what he is talking about, but he knows very well that
if it is going to succeed it will mean an increased
number of peasant farmers operating and an in-
creased acreage to be planted. The Minister tells
us that he is venturing out on this agricultural di-
versification scheme, well knowing that there is a
shortage of trained personnel to advise these peo-
ple, The Minister knows that we onthis side know....

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
the correct tense was the perfect tense which I used.
There has been.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I stillmaintain
that we on this side of the House know to what ex-
tremes Government had to go to retain the services
of the Chief Technical Officer and others in the
Ministry of Agriculture, but what we are saying is
that in the 1940's and 1950's the Ministry of Agri-
culture used to train their own Peasant Agricultural
Officers. What has become of that scheme? If you
are hoping to advance in agriculture and you have
been training twelve officers year, shouldyounot,
before venturing to throw away $1.35 million every
now and again, set out to train, if not two dozen,
eighteen or twenty officers year so that you do not
have farmers growing the wrong type of produce?
As the Minister has pointed out to us, the farmers
have been producing a type of carrot that grows too
large and the perishability is much more rapid.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of elucida-
tion......

Mr. HINDS: In such a case, Mr. Deputy Speaker,
since the peasant has been growing a carrot that is
too big and does not last as long, what you will find
is this:

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. seniormem-
ber for St. Andrew has risen on a point of elucidation.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order, I
draw Your Honour's attention to Standing Order No.
28 which reads as follows:-

"No Member shall interrupt another Member
except by rising to a point of order to elucidate some
matter raised by that Member in the course of his
speech, provided that the member speaking is willing
to give way and resumes his seat andthat the mem-
ber wishing to interrupt is called by the Chair."

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order,...

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am speaking on a point
of order.
Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I rose on a point of
elucidation before the hon. membergotup, andI said
clearly that it was a point of elucidation; so I do not
see how the hon. member's point of order could
supercede my own.


Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: The hon. memberused
the word "elucidate", and that is why I got up on a
point of order.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am grateful to the hon.
junior member for St. Joseph. The hon. senior mem-
ber for St. Andrew can only make his point if the hon.
junior member for St. Peter gives way.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: And he did not give way,
but remained standing.
11.55 a.m.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
speaking on a point of elucidation, the hon. member
as a result of what I have said about the shortage of
staff, has criticised the Ministry on the fact that we
are not training our officers. I shouldlike to explain
to the hon. member that the Eastern Caribbean Farm
Institute was established and was operating during
the time of the Federation where the officers from
the Ministry of Agriculture in Barbados and when
I refer to the officers, I mean the Agricultural As-
sistants who work in the Extension field these
officers were sent to Enfield fortwo years' training.
After the breaking up of the Federation, this training
was not readily available to Barbadians because the
Trinidad Government took charge of the Eastern
Caribbean Farm Institute, and it has been only re-
cently that we have been able to get our recruits
who went back to Trinidad fortraining at the Eastern
Caribbean Farm Institute. Last year when we had
the Prime Ministers' Conference of the West Indies
here in Barbados, this matter was one of the strong
points raised at the Conference; we wanted to know
what was happening to the interest of Barbados in
the Eastern Caribbean Farm Institute because we
were not having people trained. As a result of that,
we have been able to get people trained as officers,
and they are leaving here on the 3rd or 4th Septem-
ber to go to the Eastern Caribbean Farm Institute
for training as Agricultural Assistants. That is the
answer. The breaking up of the Federation has been
the result of our not having ourofficers trained to do
the work as Agricultural Assistants in the Research
and Extension field. We have only been able to get
the policy sorted out this year, and we are having
young recruits sent down to Trinidad next week
for training as Agricultural Assistants. There are
nine such vacancies now in the Ministry of Agricul-
ture which we cannot get filled, because these jobs
are jobs which require training. You must have at
.least two years' training at Enfield, That is what I
have been saying.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, let us leave the
peasant Agricultural Instructors aside for a mo-
ment. The B.M.C. got down some Canadian consul-
tants and amongst the recommendations, there are
noted here, in part, I suppose, in the Addendum to
this Resolution. They are (a) organization and man-
agement; (b) policy. The Minister, evidently reading
the Addendum, tells us that action has beentaken on
the recommendations in respect of (a) and (b) and
the re-arrangement of the financial structure of the
Corporation is now being undertaken, which is the







2045


financial structure as recommendation (c). Now if
the Corporation is acting on the advice of these con-
sultants, it has attended to (a) and it has attended to
(b); but in respect of (c) the Corporation is saying
that a re-arrangement of the financial structure is
now being undertaken. If we are told that in the Ad-
dendum, would it not then be fair to this House for
the Minister and his Corporation to complete (a),
(b) and (c) and then come and tell us what is hap-
pening? In other words, according to this Addendum,
this House should not be brought in at this stage, be-
cause they tell us in the Addendum: "We have ful-
filled the conditions in (a), we have fulfilled the
conditions in (b) and as regards (c) we are now re-
arranging our financial structure." You get about
with your arrangement that is what we are asking
of the Minister and after you have completed (a),
(b), and (c), then you can come andtell us; and since
I have been on my feet, I have opened avenues and
shown ways and means whereby the Corporation can
expedite the re-arrangement of its financial struc-
ture.

As I have said, it has such a good design, pro-
mises run so high that the Minister tells us that he
is sure that while not wanting to be associated with
anything in the past with the Corporation, things
will be all right in the not too distant future. I know
that quite recently, somebody carried away or at-
tempted to carry away one of the lorries belonging
to the Corporation.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on
a point of order. The hon. member has said that we
should re-organise the finances of the B.M. C. and then
come to Parliament. The hon. member knows, if he
reads the B.M.C. Act, that you can only get money
for the B.M.C. by a Resolution brought into the Legis-
lature, and that is exactly what we are doing. We have
completed phase (a), we have completed phase (b)
and now we have come to the Legislature for appro-
val for borrowing the money for re-financing the
Corporation. That is exactly what we are doing. I
have already pointed out the loans which have been
made over the years, and every loan that was taken
up by the B.M.C. was approved by the Legislature.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, is the Minister
telling us that when the B.M.C. borrowed money from
the Port Authorities or the Port Contractors that it
had come by way of Resolution to borrow this money?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
I can allay the fears of the hon. member. That is
exactly what was done. As long as the Government
is guaranteeing it, it has to be approved by the Legis-
lature.
12.05 p.m.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is now clear
to us that the Barbados Marketing Corporation is
afraid to approach the farmers, its potential sup-
pliers of produce; it is afraid to approach its ex-
porting agents and shipping interests. All of these,
I am saying, are people who ought to have an interest
and ought to be encouragedto invest in this organisa-


tion, but the shorter roadto refinancing an institution
such as this is definitely by coming to the Legislature
because the Government have their numbers.

What we have to concern ourselves with is that
at paragraph 6 it is stated:

"The amount required to meet payments by the
Government in respect of the $700,000 mentioned
in the preceding paragraph will be included in
the Estimates."

In short, we are today being asked to approve of this
$700,000, and if we do so today we cannot then go
against it when it appears in the Estimates, because
we will have already approvedof it today. This is one
of the reasons why I feel that the B.M.C. ought to
have gone about refinancing its operations in a dif-
ferent manner. All I can say is that the B.M.C. is
only refinancing a hope of borrowing money tomor-
row. All this $1.35 million will enable the Barbados
Marketing Corporation to do is this. Evidently when
it borrows these various loans from various banks,
particularly the Canadian Imperial Bank of Com-
merce, as it has done on manyoccasions $100,000,
$130,000, and so on evidently the banks have been
told that they cannot lose their money and will get it
back.

All we are asked to do today is to approve of this
sum, and the Manager of B.M.C., or the Minister or
whoever it might be I should say the Minister of
Finance, because this is a matter of finance, and no
Minister other than the Minister of Finance has any
right to go to any bank talking about big finance with-
out the authority of the Minister of Finance. This is
a financial matter, and the Minister of Finance should
be going to the banks tomorrow to say: "We told you
we would be able to pay you back; the money has been
paid; so you can start lending the B.M.C. money
again as from tomorrow." I do not want to say any-
thing further on this Resolution.

There are considerations being given to em-
ployees of the B.M.C. As regards the former em-
ployees at Haggatts Factory in St. Andrew, no
consideration was given to them. There was no ques-
tion of seeing whether a. bank would advance money,
taking into consideration the fact that the peasant
farmers had not completed the reaping of their crops,
to keep the factory going. As far as the poor peasant
farmers, were concerned, canes do not grow like
carrots. If B.M.C. had been the marketing agents,
even after the canes began to rot, they might still
have been able to pass off the roots down there; but
the Scotland sugar cane growers were cut off even
before the crop season had ended The remarkable
thing about it is that both the Minister of Agriculture
and his Permanent Secretary who are the Minister
and Deputy Minister, so to speak, of Agriculture.....

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of-order;
Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. seniormem-
ber for St. Andrew has risen on a point of order.








2046


Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
the cane farmers of St. Andrew are the people who
closed Haggatts Factory by not sending their canes
to the factory. The factory cannot operate unless you
send canes to it.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of
order.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is surprising
to me to hear from the Minister, the hon. senior
member for St. Andrew, that the peasant farmers in
St. Andrew are the people who went and closed the
doors to Haggatts Factorywhile their caneswere still
unreaped and unharvestedl Mr. Deputy Speaker, are
we hearing from the senior member for St. Andrew
that the parishioners of St. Andrew are the persons
who are guilty, and their conduct has been such as
to bring about the closing of Haggatts Factory, while
they themselves had to try by whatever means that
were available to them, even if they had to appeal
to the same hon. senior member for St. Andrew as
the Minister of Agriculture, to help them to provide
trucks to get their canes over the hills? Does the
Minister want us to believe that the people of St.
Andrew care so little about themselves and the crops
they have planted?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on
a point of order. It is not that the people of St.
Andrew care so little about themselves; they care too
much about themselves, because they get more money
for the canes when they send them over the hills.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of
order. The hon. Mover of the Motion will have his
chance to reply.
12.15 p.m.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order,
in order that the hon. member may not make this
mistake again, I should like to point this out to him.
The point dealing with elucidation~I have already
dealt with, but on the question of a point of order,
"no member shall interrupt another member ex-
cept by rising to a point of order when the member
speaking shall resume his seat and the member in-
terrupting shall simply direct attention to the point
which he desires to bring to notice and submit it to
the Speaker or Chairman for decision." When the
hon. member constantly rises just to correct some-
thing, he is breaking that StandingOrder. I am sorry
I should have to say it in your presence as if I were
reminding you of it, but I am remindingmembers on
the other side of it; and the hon. member has a
chance to reply.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order,
according to tft same Standing Order which the hon.
junior member for St. Joseph has drawn to attention,
no one can determine what is person's point of or-
der until it is made. The Speaker made a ruling on
my point of order; he did not consider it to be a
point of order, but the Speaker was in duty bound
to listen to what I said because he could only de-
termine whether it was a point of order after I had


completed it. Nobody can stop me getting up on a
point of order even if it is not a point of order. So
long as a misinterpretation is made, it is my demo-
cratic right and privilege to getup and make a point
of order, and it is forth Speakeror Deputy Speaker
to tell me after I shall have made my point that it
is not a point of order; so do not get on with any
nonsense.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister
conveniently lays emphasis on the number of per-
sons who are employed in any particular industry,
and he even cites that as one of the primary reasons
why we on this side of the House must support the
intention of any undertaking which Government is
willing to see continue. As I said earlier, each cane-
cutter in St. Andrew and the nearby parishes, each
cane-header, each loader, lorry driver and lorry
hand has somebody dependent on him; so if the Min-
ister decided between himself and the Parliamentary
Secretary that they should have nothing to do with
the people who were working at Haggatts Factory
and they were going to laythem off, are we to under-
stand that they did not take into consideration the
families of the people who are dependent on the
turnover of Haggatts Factory? Mr. Deputy Speaker,
I remember those motor lorries changing gears and
coming up the hills with loads of sugar destined for
Bridgetown. I know the number of persons that had to
be employed at the Bridgetown Port. Are we to un-
derstand that all these people mean absolutely nothing
to the Minister, the hon. senior member for St. An-
drew, and the hon. junior member forSt. Andrew when
they decided to close Haggatts Factory at the time
they did?


Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am appealing to the Min-
ister in all seriousness. I wonder if he can tell me
how many vegetable farmers have been dealing with
the Marketing Corporation? How many hawkers and
hucksters have been buying wholesale from the Mar-
keting Corporation? That is where we can determine
in some small measure what part the B.M.C. has
been playing in stabilising the prices of vegetables
in this Island. The Minister told us that from its
inception, the Barbados Marketing Corporation was
in debt, and that this is money to pay off old debts.
I will tell you now that if the Minister really and truly
wanted this money for the B. M. C. to have an operating
capital, he would have had to come fora larger sum;
but he knows the feeling of this side of the House,
and he knows that the same sort of consideration
should have been given to Haggatts Factory before
they decided to close it down as was given to C.B.C.
and is being given to the .Barbados Marketing Cor-
poration. It is all right for us to hear that there are
200 people employed, but just a few nights ago an
attempt was made to carry away the safe from the
B.M.C. Let the Minister get up and deny it.


Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order,
I just want to hear from the hon. member if he said
that they carried away the safe or if they went to
carry away the safe.








2047


Mr. MOTTLEY: On a point of order, I do not
like these statements goingunchallenged, and infair-
ness to the Minister who was out of the House, I
should like to say that the hon. member asked the
Minister to deny that a few nights ago an attempt
was made to carry away the safe. (Hon. N. W.
BOXILL: What is he speaking on?) Shut up, you
bloody idiot! I am speaking on a point of order. The
Minister was out of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker,
when the hon. member said that a few nights ago
they attempted to carry away the safe. WhenI reach
the stage that the hon. member can teach me any
procedure in Parliament, I hope to be sixfeet down.
The convulsed, monumental idiot is telling me to
shut up.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. member has
made his point of order, but the Chairwould ask him
to control himself in using such expressions.

Mr. MOTTLEY: The expression "monumental
idiot" is not unparliamentary.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I did not rule that it
was unparliamentary.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a
point of order, I am not objecting......

Mr. HINDS: The point I was making is this......

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. junior mem-
ber for St. Thomas has risen on a point of order.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: I am not objecting to the
words used to me or to anybody. I am objecting to
the words "bloody idiot" used in this Parliament,
and I am asking that they be expunged from the
record.

Mr. MOTTLEY: They cannot be expunged from
the record. I say again "bloody idiot" andI challenge
you to say they are unparliamentary.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ihave already saidthat
I do not consider the words to be unparliamentary,
but I do not deem them to be the best type of language.
The Chair will not sit by and allow hon. members to
ignore the Standing Orders of this Honourable
Chamber. If the hon. junior member for St. Thomas
is going to address the Chair, please let him stand.
(ASIDES). Let the hon. junior member for St. Peter
continue.

Mr. HINDS: I would be glad to proceed, but I
cannot in this sort of confusion. There is disorder
in the House.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is no disorder.


Mr. HINDS: In the absence of disorder, I will
proceed. The Minister has been at pains to put the
advantages of the B.M.C. and to show where the
farmers stand to benefit.
12.25 p.m.


He was even careful enough to tell us that all the
telephones at the B.M.C. are available to the peas-
ant farmers.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
on a point of order. I rise to deny that. I did not say
that all the telephones at the B.M.C. are available
to the peasant farmers. I said that the telephones
at the Ministry are available to peasant farmers.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I do not have the au-
thority to stop an hon. member from rising on a
point of order or on a point of elucidation, but the
hon. mover of the Resolution has the right of reply
and it would be better if he would make notes as the
debate proceeds and then cover all those points in
his reply.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
I am on a point of order.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. seniormem-
ber for St. Andrew has risen on a point of order.

Mr. HINDS: He has to make his point of order.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: He has risen on point
of order, and I have said that it is not within my
power to prevent an hon. member.from rising on a
point of order.

Mr. HINDS: Is it within my power to refuse
to give way?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Not on a point of order.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Or elucidation.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
the hon. member has made a statement saying that
I said something which I did not say and it is not
for me to wait until I am replying to refute anything.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
on a point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I am on a point of
order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and no other person
can cross me on a point of order.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of
order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I am on my feet on a
point of order.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Will the hon. senior
member for St. Andrew please sit? That is not a
point of order. (ASIDES).

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order.








2048


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Will the hon. senior
member for St. Andrew please sit?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I will honour your
ruling.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. seniormem-
ber for St. Andrew has said that the hon. junior
member for St. Peter has made a statement which
the hon. senior member for St. Andrew did not make.
That cannot be a point of order. The hon. member
has risen on a point of elucidation.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I now rise on a point
of order to say that the hon. member accused me
of making a statement which I did not make.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Again I say that that
is not a point of order. Will the hon. senior member
for St. Andrew please sit?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I willget up again on a
point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point
of elucidation.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: But the hon. junior
member for St. Peter has not given way.

Mr. HINDS: If the hon. member is rising on a
point of elucidation, I am not giving way. Now, Sir,
I have here in my notes that the Minister has said
that the telephones at the Department are available
to the farmers. I had really interpreted that to mean
that he was referring to the telephones at the B.M.C.
but, Sir, if the Minister is saying that he meant the
telephones at the Ministry, it serves the same pur-
pose for my point of argument. Let us picture the
peasant farmers scattered throughout the length
and breadth of Barbados; let us for a single moment
picture those peasant farmers at the RiskHillin St.
Peter, bordering St. Lucy; let us at the same time
think of some of those around Hillaby up there by
old Mrs. Swainl (ASIDES.)

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. junior mem-
ber for St. Peter is addressing the Chair.

Mr. HINDS: What purpose would the telephones
at the Ministry serve the peasant farmer, bearing
in mind that one peasant farmer in some cases, in
order to get a telephone message, has to go for his
little donkey, harness it, get in his cart, give the
donkey two hot lashes, drive it beyond the walk,
break the speed limit and drive for three miles,
perhaps more, before he can get the use of a tele-
phone to telephone the Ministry to let them know that
he has some sort of vegetables orto enquire how the
market is going or something of the sort. You will
understand, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that if the Minister
had told us that the Cabinet had given consideration
to placing telephones throughout these areaswhere a
peasant farmer may have to walk, for half a mile or
three quarters of a mile and put a coin in the slot
and call up the Ministry or whoever he wants to call
up, in connection with the sale of the vegetables, I
would then be hearing of the benefits to the farmers


of these telephones being placed at the Ministry. The
Minister has pulled everything he has out of the box
in order to make out a case for the B.M.C. I will
tell you this, that it is his sheer weight of numbers
that will bring him through today. Had I any in-
fluence on the Canadian Bank of Commerce in
Bridgetown or if I had that amount of influence on any
business in Bridgetown or any business section of the
community, I would have advised them of their run-
ning a great risk. Why is that? They will wake up one
morning sooner or later to find that the weight of
numbers no longer rests on that side, and there
and then they might find that the B.M.C. will have
to find other avenues to finance its misdeeds.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think that I have said
enough on this Resolution.

Mr. CORBIN: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I did not in-
tend to say anything on this Resolution which is be-
fore us today, but there are a few points which I
would like to clear up. (MEMBERS: We cannot hear).
This Resolution is asking for $1.3 million... (Mr.
HINDS: $1.35 million) to finance the Barbados Mar-
keting Corporation and I thought that we were only
dealing with this Resolution for $1.3 million (Mr.
HINDS: $1.35 million); but I heard the hon. junior
member for St. Peter bring in Haggatts Factory and
say that the Minister of Agriculture and his Par-
liamentary Secretary have closed down Haggatts
Factory.
12.35 p.m.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a point of
order. In the first place, I never said that the Min-
ister of Agriculture-and the junior member for St.
Andrew had closed Haggatts Factory. I never said so,
Sir.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of
order.

Mr. CORBIN: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I can assure
you that, if you trace back, you will see or read that
the junior member for St. Peter has said that I, the
Parliamentary Secretary, have joined with the Min-
ister of Agriculture to close Haggatts Factory.

Mr. HINDS: On a point of elucidation. I never
said that.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. member has
not given way.

Mr. CORBIN: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want the
hon. member to realise that Haggatts Factory could
not work because itwas not receiving sufficient canes.
That is why it was closed. The junior member for
St. Peter has machinery, and if he cannot get paper
his machinery cannot operate.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I thought the hon. ju-
nior member for St. Andrew had risen to speak on
the Motion before the House, but it seems as though
he is referring to points made by the previous
speaker. I would prefer him to speak on the Motion.








2049


Mr. CORBIN: I will stick to the motion, Sir. I
am saying, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that if the Corpora-
tion is borrowing money the Government will have to
approve it. I can assure anyone that the Barbados
Marketing Corporation is worthwhile carrying on,
and it will help the farmers who are now planting
various crops. It gives every man who has land a
hope, because he knows where he will get his pro-
duce sold.

If the Corporation is borrowing money to carry
on its business, I will agree to that. But you must
remember that if I lend you money, you must pay it
back. If I lend a man money, I look for him to pay it
back. I am sure in the process of time the Barbados
Marketing Corporation will be able to take care of
itself, and it will not have to continue to come here
and ask us to loan it money.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Iamgoing
to be very brief. In these days, as I get older, I find
that there is not much sense inprolongingthe agony,
although at times it affects your opponents.

Now, so far as this Resolution is concerned,
here is where I join hands with the Hon. Prime
Minister: the one newspaper in this country which
should be here to report matters of importance
taking place in this House the disloyalityof the re-
porters to the people who have beenpayingthem, for
Party reasons, is something shocking in this country,
but we hope that in a few months they will all pay
for it. I say 'the disloyalty and dishonesty of the re-
porters! When this House was first opened, a letter
was given stating what they were going to do, and
what they were not going to do. I know you are giving
me a chance to digress on this point for a minute,
Sir.

Anyway, the Leader of the Opposition will tell
you now that I took a stand in politics in the Con-
servative Party, and for nothing whatsoever could
he swing me round or say that I came out and told
him something. I took up my stand; I was loyal to
the Party to which I belong. If the Press had been
giving the public the necessary information in re-
spect of the Barbados Marketing Corporation, it
could not have gone so far.

Maybe, Mr. Deputy Speaker, hon. members on
the other side would like to know of the origin and
the coming about of the Marketing Corporation. I sup-
pose only the Leader of the Opposition, the senior
member for St. Joseph, the Minister of Communica-
tions and Works, and the Minister of Health will re-
member this. The late Mr. Henry Arthur started in
a small way to bring peasant farmers together, and
started in a smallway to buy greens from them, and
he influenced the then Government-in-power to do
something which resulted in the Peasants Loan Bank.
This is the origin of the whole matter, and I am sure
the Hon. Leader of the Opposition will recall all of
this. He was the late Mr. Henry Arthur, member for
St. Thomas, where my friend the Minister of Com-
4munications and Works represents now.


Sir, having that as the background, it is difficult
to understand how this Company has been losing
money all these years, What is happening; what is
wrong? It is a good thing. All of us supported the
Barbados Marketing Corporation. This whole House
supported the Marketing Corporation. It is one of
these things that when it was brought about, one felt
that the peasant farmer would be able to have some
place to sell his vegetables; but it has gone a bit
further. It seems to me, and, if I make any state-
ment that is incorrect, Iwillgive way to the Minister
and sit down, although I do not have to give way on any
point of elucidation.
12.45 p.m.

It seems to me that instead of being run for the
farmers, it is being run now for a few people. If you
were to take this business and put it into the hands
of two businessmen like Goddard or Kenneth Hunte
in Bridgetown, by the end of December it would
show a profit, and they would not chase away anybody.
They would however not buy okras when they know
they are too old. I challenge from the Leader of the
Opposition back to the Chairman of Committees to
deny that when they send to the shop to buy okras
and They are too old, they do not send them back and
say they are too old to get enough slime for the cou-
cou. Something has been going wrong there. On the
last occasion when we had to speak on this matter,
it was public knowledge that money had been lost,
strayed or stolen, and we have not in this House been
able to tell the public anything more than that the
Government had removed the Chairman. We cannot
say with any authority how much money was paid
back.

Now you are asking for $1.35 million and the
Minister has explained how this is to work, what you
owe away, what you have to pay andwhat is for capi-
tal. Attempts have been made by the Government that
if they want a bag of sugar and you can check me
if I am wrong they must buy it from the Marketing
Corporation. If the Hilton Hotel or any Government
Department wants something, they must buy it from
the Marketing Corporation, and when the Marketing
Corporation has not got it, they send into the City
and buy it from merchants who are in competition.
What do you expect, Mr. Deputy Speaker? This was
never the intention when the Marketing Corporation
started. It was started to help peasant proprietors,
and I hope it will last for helping peasant proprietors.
I hope the statement which I will make now will
cause the Minister to look into this. The feeling is
that the Marketing Corporation is being run as a
Democratic Labour Party institution, and certain
things are usually put aside for certain people. This
is wrong. You cannot run a Government institution
like that. We are not asked to vote this money for the
Transport Board. I am a Conservative, but I realise
that there are certain things which must be run even
if they are run at a loss. Even when I took my stand
on the Transport Board, I realized that it was be-
coming such an important Department in this country
that it had to be run. Why has the Marketing Corpora-
tion gone into the selling of imported milk? Was it








2050


-established to sell imported condensed milk? The
answer to that is "no". You had James A. Tudor,
Goddards, Perkins, Bryden and everybody in com-
petition with this. You even had the Marshal at the
Low Budget Super Market. No member in this House
can honestly tell me that he thought that the Market-
ing Corporation would be established to be in com-
petition with the Chamber of Commerce from which
we derive revenue for running the country.

If you could come here today and tell me that as
a result of helping peasant proprietors you have lost
money and could show me chapter andverse, I would
vote for this; but you cannot do it. It is surprising to
know the Heads under which you have been losing
money. The pork section you have brought uponyour-
self. I see pork being sold at 600 a pound, and then I
see the Marketing Corporation paying all sorts of
prices. $6,000 were paid for porkwhichwas credited
out and you do not know who has it. (A VOICE: Those
were the farmers' pigs.) They are not the farmers'
pigs, but you still have alot of dishonest people down
there. You got rid of a dishonest Chairman and now
you have Calvin Sides. How many convictions has
Calvin Sides had? How much money has he lost from
DaCosta, Musson and Company? You removed
Johnson because he carried away money, but how
many convictions have Calvin Sides had forlarceny?
I would not vote for this if it was the last thing I
voted for in this House. Maybe you wonder where I
got the information from, but I belong to the Con-
servative Party. The reputation of this man is known
from Venezuela back down. You are building sheds
and other things. You talk about pork, but do you
know that a lot of pork was bought, credited out and
you do not know where the money has gone?

I have always admired the Minister in charge
of this portfolio for his frankness in coming to the
House, but there are times when he has got to cover
up for his Department. All things that are lawful,
are not expedient. You want this $,.35 million and
you are putting a man in charge whom we know had
criminal convictions. You have removed one that
showed he was a criminal. The Hon. Minister knows
what I am saying is true, and this is a bad thing for
Barbados. We support the Marketing Corporation in
Barbados to help the peasants; but the helping of the
peasants must not drain the Treasury, and this is
really a drain on the Treasury. Do you know that
certain banks in this country have refused to advance
any money in this respect whether the House passes
it or not?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am
asking the hon. member to give way in order to move
that further consideration be postponed.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I beg to
move that further consideration be postponed.

Mr. SMITH: I beg to second that.


The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with -
out division.


SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I beg
to move that this Sitting be now suspended until
2.30 p.m.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to second that.

The question was putand resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER suspended the sitting accord-
ingly.

12.55 p.m.
On re-assembling,

Mr. YEARWOOD: Mr. Speaker, observing that
there is no quorum present, I ask that the Bell be
rung.

Mr. SPEAKER: Mr. Clerk, let the Bellbe rung.
I thank the hon. member.

On the Bell being rung, a quorum was obtained.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Frankly, Sir, some of
us would like to know what do we go by as regards
time. I say this without offence, I hope, whether we
go by Your Honour's watch, the Public Buildings'
clock or the time which this clock here shows.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am advised that so far as to-
day, up to now, is concerned I have only now as-
sumed the Chair we have been going by the Public
Buildings clock. (Laughter).

I understand thatimmediately prior to the sus-
pension of the Sitting, the hon. senior member for
Bridgetown was addressing the Chair. That hon.
member may, if he wishes, now resume his speech.
(Hon. J. C. TUDOR rose).

Mr. MOTTLEY: I see thatthe Hon. Leaderof the
House is on his feet.

Mr. SPEAKER: He has not risen on a point of
order.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I was attempting
to say a few words on this very controversial mat-
ter in respect of which the "Advocate", the only
daily newspaper in this Island, was keeping the facts
from the people because of the disloyalty of some
of its Reporters and the dishonesty of some. It is
time that somebody says this in this House. I bet that
they do not publish what I said about disloyality and
dishonesty. (Hon. J. C. TUDOR rose). This is
nothing to do with members of the House and I am
not sitting down.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: If the hon. member would
give way......

Mr. MOTTLEY: I will give way. Is it a point of
order?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: No.








2051


Mr. MOTTLEY: If the hon. member is asking
me to give way to go on to Private Members' Busi-
ness or Question Time, I am notdoingit. (Hon. J. C.
TUDOR: Oh, well.) This is a very important matter
that we are discussing today. There is only one
"Advocate" man in the House, and this is where I
agree with the Prime Minister. They do not publish
anything which is said in the House; they do not ap-
prise the public of the facts. What is the sense of
having this type of newspaper? It is time that you bar
the reporters from coming into the House because all
you can see published is an Addendum and something
which a Minister has said. (Mr. SARGEANT: That is
not true.) Don't tell me that it is not true because the
policy has been changed since they have got the cat-
o'-nine tails bhind them. I have notgot much chance
of buying off anybody or firing anybody from any job
or getting the Government to fire anybody out of any
job. You can publish anything I say; you have a right
to publish what is said on the floor of this House.

I am definitely disturbed at the fact that while
it is true that a substantial sum of this money is
from 1963-64 the balance of Capital Works and so
on I will repeat what I said. We had every oppor-
tunity of prosecuting the Head of this Department,
the Chairman, and you would have got everybody
pulling his socks together. I ask on the floor of the
House: why you did not prosecute him? You ran a
boy all through the Kew and prosecuted him, and what
happened? Out you go. Do you think that the people
in this country are foolish? Youwouldnot prosecute
the man who was carrying away the money. The
"Advocate" is saying nothing about it, other ad-
vertising media are saying nothing about it; but the
milch cow, which is the taxpayer, is paying the
money.

Let me ask this question. If they hadcome here
today and told this House that the Barbados Market-
ing Corporation had been losing money as a result of
buying fish and helping the fisherman I knew when
fishermen came in here and threw away about 600
or 800 flying fish because they could not sell them -
but that is not so; they are making a handsome profit
out of the fish business, the cold storage business.
No one can deny this. I understandthat before I came
in here, the hon. junior member for St. Peter took
away some of my thunder by suggesting that you
should ask the peasants, and so on, to come for-
ward as a Co-operative. That is a very wonderful
suggestion. Why are you losing so much money? I
stood up here and said that I knew as a fact that
nearly the entire crowd which you employ down there
think that this is a Democratic Labour Party Institu-
tion, or a shop, and that when people come in to buy -
I do not accuse any Minister of this, and especially
the Minister in charge -they just assess you, and if
you have not got your passport by one way or the
other, the things are set aside, and otherpeople can
come in and get them. All of that is wrong. I knew
a friend who was on the Board he was a kitchen
gardener for years and years; other people would
offer things, they would refuse to buy them and then
they would take some things which were not market-
able from other people. That is not the way to do


business. Do you think that that could happen to a
man like James Tudor or Victor Goddard who know
something about business? The amount of 52% of the
profits of private enterprise is going to the Govern-
ment as a silent partner; that is the case with peo-
ple in private enterprise and you are carrying
condensed milk, you are buying sugar to sell to the
Hilton Hotel and making nothing on itl What sort of
business is this? You are bound to lose "--'ey

I know the origin of the Barbados Marketing
Corporation; I know how it was started. It was
started primarily to help the peasants. But what do
you find today? You lose pork, and how do you lose
all of this pork in the refrigerator? What went
wrong? How much pork went out that was bad? You
have three or four carcasses at the top bad, and 42
carcasses at the bottom good, and that is how you
are losing money. Do you not think that Mr. Goddard
or Mr. Tudor would have had somebody at every
door and corner to see what was going out? When
you come to the end of the day, everybody is drawing
his salary. The milch cow is paying; the House of
Assembly is going to vote the money. You have a ma-
jority and therefore you are bound to pay. You are
drawing your $500, $600 or$800 a month, and every-
body is drawing his money. Allof that is wrong. Eve.
the most diehard of us is willing to concede that
there are certain things which you would have to sub-
sidise, but there is no reason at all in the world for
subsidising the Barbados Marketing Corporation, and
that is all that we are doing. Why should the Minister
not let the people down there know that this is for the
benefit of the public, and not an institution run for
the Democratic Labour Party? The people who belong
to the Democratic Labour Party go in and get the
best things picked out, and one-half of things are
hidden inside. All of that is wrong: and then you
come in and ask us to vote money like this! Even
with cut-plate money, this is a lot of money $1.35
million. Lord have mercy There is nothing wrong
with that; I am asking God to have mercy on the souls
of all of us who would vote for this money, but not
me. I said here today that I knew that there were
banks who would refuse to lend this money whether
the House was voting it or not, because they were
not satisfied. When you go to borrow money from a
bank, you have to show Balance Sheets and show how
things are being worked and so on, no matter what
was happening. I know that somebody wants to get up
and make me a liar there. This was no easy matter
to be able to get this money, but as long as the Gov-
ernment can give security do you know what that
means? You pay on the income tax, but on the trade
tax you are running everything. You put on all the
taxes and make them pay. You had a Chairman, you
had misappropriation and now you appoint, what you
call him the sickle? You do not fall for people so.
2.40 p.m.

I know the Minister will defend this by saying
that we have an Auditor and Accountant there whose
duty it is to sign the cheques. That is not the way you
will lose money. The man who signs the cheques -
of course, you had a little mishap there, but I was
told something quite different. You lose moneywhen








2052


you order things and only receive half of what you
order, and you pay for more than what you receive.

I understand that the Corporation accepted okras
knowing they were old. What do you do with okras
when they are old? Ask the Minister of Communica-
tions and Works, because he knows about okras and
cou-cou. I would like the Minister of Communica-
tions and Works to tell me what one does with old
okras, but he would not look at me.

Sir I understand that the Corporation is export-
ing yams and potatoes, anditis importingmilk. Let
us deal with exporting yams and potatoes. It is a
good thing to find some other market for these things
I would like to warn the Government that when one
has to pay 14 a pound for potatoes, and 140 a pound
for yams in Barbados and one still finds difficulty
in getting them, and when a woman with four or five
children, wants to buy five or six pounds of yams
to cook for children and is finding difficulty to get
them, then I say that there should be some means of
controlling this sort of thing. Imagine at a certain
time of the year every yam is sent out of the Island,
and we are left to suffer!

Sir, I would like to draw this matterto the Min-
ister's attention: the Marketing Corporation imports
potatoes and it sells potatoes. It sells potatoes I
may be wrong with the figure let us say, 60 or 8V
per pound. The Barbados Marketing Corporation
does not know anything about business. Listen care-
fully to this. The Corporation had a big lot of pota-
toes. The merchants brought down some potatoes,
and the potatoes could have been sold to the public
at 2 V per pound cheaper than the potatoes sold by
the Corporation, but the Government refused to let
the merchants sell the potatoes until the Corporation
had sold all of its potatoes.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, un-
officially I heard the hon. member with this, and I
investigated the matter.

Mr. SPEAKER: On what has the hon. member
risen?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order,
Mr. Speaker. I refer to the allegation made by the
hon. senior member for the City that the Govern-
ment refused to let the merchants sell theirpotatoes
until the B.M.C.'s potatoes were sold. That is not
true. The position is that potatoes coming to this
country are subject to a control price, as the Minis-
ter of Trade will point out. Neither my Ministry, as
far as I am aware, nor the Ministry of Trade, has
issued any instructions not to sell the imported
potatoes.

Mr. MOTTLEY: The Hon. Minister says that
neither his Ministry, nor the Ministry of Trade, has
issued instructions not to sell the potatoes, but is
he saying that what I have said is not true? Is he
prepared to say that what I have said is not true?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On point of order, Mr.
Speaker.


Mr. SPEAKER: May I point out that thing does
not become a point of order merely by prefacing it
with the phrase "point of order". May I remind the
hon. member who spoke first that he has the right
of final reply? He may make a note of all the points
to which he wants to reply, but he may not reply to
them point by point. Let him not fall into the trap -
not that anything is wittingly said, but it may be un-
wittingly said.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order,
Mr. Speaker. I am saying that the Government has
not, nor am I aware of the fact that this was done.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have been in
here too long to get caught in any trap. "I know
nothing about it," says the Minister, "and the Min-
ister of Trade knows nothing about it." Will the
Minister swear in this House that the B.M.C. was
not selling potatoes; the merchants had potatoes that
could have been sold at a cheaper price, and that the
Ministry refused to fix the price at which potatoes
could be sold? Answer that.

Mr. SPEAKER: No hon. member may swear in
this House, and no hon. member may conduct a
'question-and-answer'. There can be no question-
and-answer in here.

Mr. MOTTLEY: The B.M.C. has nothing to do
with that. The B.M.C. got down all of the potatoes
in the Island. The B.M.C. had the potatoes fixed at a
certain price. Potatoes came in that could be sold
at 20 or 30 per pound cheaper (ASIDES) Ask Mr.
Reggie McConney about it then I could open my
mouth and talk, but I do not want to put anybody in
trouble. Why did they refuse to fix the price for po-
tatoes until the B.M.C. had got rid of its potatoes?
That is what I would call delaying tactics. The gen-
eral public had to wait until the B.M.C. got rid of its
potatoes, and the people could have bought potatoes
at 20 or 30 per pound cheaper.

The Minister thinks I do not know what I am
talking about. I have not got into any debates here
for a long time. These things are wrong. I am a
hundred per cent behind the Marketing Corporation,
because I know it will benefit the peasants as well
as the general public. But when the Corporation be-
gins to compete with other places, then it will soon
be doing like Nkrumah and importingeverything pos-
sible into this country. All of this is wrong. Do you
want to get up, George? Get up man.

Mr. SPEAKER: I really do notunderstandwhom
the hon. member thinks he is addressing

Mr. MOTTLEY: I am speaking on this Resolu-
tion.

Mr. SPEAKER: But there is no George to address
in this House.

Mr. MOTTLEY: You have not seen it, Sir.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: On a point of order,
Mr. Speaker.


F_








2053


Mr. SPEAKER: Verily, verily, I am assured
that this is a point of order?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, the hon.
senior member for Bridgetown has just mentioned
my Permanent Secretary's name with reference
to withholding the release of potatoes, because the
Marketing Corporation had potatoes in hand. The
Price Control Board is run under the jurisdiction
of my Ministry.
2.50 p.m.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: What is the point of
order that the hon. member is asking Your Honour
to decide?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I am contradicting the
statement. No such thing has ever happened in the
Ministry to my knowledge.

Mr. SPEAKER: The point has been made.

Mr. MOTTLEY: That is quite honest of the Min-
ister. He said it has not been done to his knowledge,
but surely he is not going to denythat potatoes were
here when the B.M.C. had potatoes sellingat a cer-
tain price when no price was fixed, and there were
quite a lot of potatoes that could have been sold at a
cheaper price. The hon. member need not take my
word, but I can bring someone whose word I believe
he will take, who was in charge of this and who
knew that this actually happened and was going on
for a matter of three weeks, and people's potatoes
almost rotted. You are getting on with a lot of non-
sense at the Marketing Corporation. You did not
have to fix a price, but you could adopt delaying tac-
tics. I am an old politician.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: On a point of order, Mr.
Speaker, I cannot agree with the hon. seniormember
for Bridgetown because a Control Order.....

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Must this be allowed?
The hon. member is jumping up making a speech.

Mr. SPEAKER: I see two hon. members ontheir
feet.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I did not hear the hon.
member who is on the opposite side of the room say
that he is on a point of orderand I rose on a point of
order.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Onapointoforder, Mr.
Speaker, when I make a point of order, I make it to
the Speaker and not to any specific person in here. It
is no business of the hon. member what I rise on. I
said "on a point of order" whenIgot up, and you are
not Speaker in here

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member is addressing
the Chair and he says that I am not Speaker in here

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, I was
saying that under control prices, if certain com-
modities came into this country and could be sold


at a price cheaper than any personwas selling them,
there could be no restrictions. I cannot see if mer-
chants had potatoes that could be sold at a cheaper
price......

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order, is
Your Honour going to allow a speech? What is the
point of order which you are to decide? You have to
rule what is a point of order.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, as Minis-
ter responsible for trade and there is an accusation
made like this in here, it is my dutyto clear it up,
and I intend to clear it up, regardless of whether
the hon. junior member for St. Joseph stands on his
head instead of his feet.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order, you
can elucidate or correct something when you have
made a speech andwas misunderstood by the opposite
side, but as Minister of Trade you cannot do it on a
point of order. I am asking Your Honour to rule be-
cause we have reached the stage when we might just
as well tear up the Standing Orders.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am grateful for gratuitous
counsel, but I do not regard myself as being bound
by it.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: On a point of order, I
was saying that control prices control the highest
margin at which something can be sold.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: How could that be a
point of order?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: If you do not like it,
you can do what you like about it both you and the
hon. senior member for St. Thomas. I was saying,
Mr. Speaker, that control prices control the highest
possible margin......

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Order.

Mr. HINDS: Order. Mr. Speaker, on a point of
order......

Mr. SPEAKER: A point of order, I understand,
is in the process of being made.

Mr. HINDS: And I have risenon a point of order.

Mr. SPEAKER: That point must be duly com-
pleted. I will dispose of that point, and then attend
to the hon. member's.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I feel it is my
duty, when I am speaking and a member stands on a
point of order, to sit. I satandit is your duty to rule
if what the member is saying is a point of order.

Mr. SPEAKER: Again I am grateful for this gra-
tuitous advice.

Mr. MOTTLEY: That is not gratuitous advice. I
am speaking as a man and a member of this House.








2054


-Is it my duty to sit if a member rises on a point of.
order?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is correct.

Mr. MOTTLEY: And it is your duty to rule if it
is a point of order?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is correct.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Well, insteadof going all around
ard causing confusion, rule if it is a point of order.

Mr. SPEAKER: It is not my fault whether con-
fusion is caused in certain people's minds. As soon
as the point is made, I will rule whether it is valid
or invalid, but it has to be completed.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: When the hon. member
tells you that he is speaking as Minister of Trade
as to what happened in his Ministry, Your Honour has
not got to wait until he finishes his speech. I will re-
peat what I said earlier.

SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Mr. SPEAKER: This sitting now stands sus-
pended for 15 minutes on account of grave disorder.
3.00 p.m.
On resumption:-

Mr. Deputy Speaker took the Chair.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I used the
word "Ministry" when I should have used the words
"Marketing Corporation" and if objection is taken
to that, I will withdraw the word "Ministry". I should
like to say as a fact that Ithink, when permission was
sought to get produce in, which could have been sold
at 2 cents a pound cheaper, there was no question of
having a local commodity because you know that we
could not grow enough Irish potatoes in Barbados to
sell to the hotels in Hastings, never mind anywhere
else. Therefore, it was the Barbados Marketing
Corporation whose right it is and the Ministrywhich
it comes under, which actually refused this. Sir, I
will tell you something else; all these things are
wrong with the Barbados Marketing Corporation for
the simple reason that we are exporting yams to
England. From my knowledge as a school boy, Eng-
land is a very big place. You may have yams in
Liverpool, Manchester, London and some other
places. A permit was also refused by the Barbados
Marketing Corporation to export yams because the
Barbados Marketing Corporation had been exporting
yams to London while some other person was ex-
porting to other places. (Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS:
That is almost correct.) The hon. member Says that
it is almost correct and you know when he says that
it is almost correct, it is nearly correct. With all
this power which they have, do you mean to say that
they are still losing money? We have hadto back and
guarantee this million dollars. I believe that the new
Chairman is trying his best in his way and we will
see what he can do. One thingwe know is that he will
-put his best foot forward.


While I agree with the B.M.C. up to the point
that it was started to help the kitchen-garden people
and so 'or, it was never intended to import milk and
all of these things. If therefore with a lot of West
Indians in England now, and yams are taken in Eng-
land, why should the B.M.C. deny the rightof private
people to export yams to England? This would be all
right if the Ministry had said: "We cannot export
any more yams because we have not got any more
than would satisfy local consumption." That is not
the case at all. They are just saying: "We have the
right to sell them; you have no right selling them."

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: That is not correct.
It is not a question of the B.M.C. wanting to sell the
yams and nobody else would sell them. In my reply,
I will set the record straight.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Why does the hon. mem-
ber get up so often?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I have the right to get
up, and nobody can tell me when I am to get up or to
sit down.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: On what has the hon.
member risen?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of
order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I thank you, Sir.

Mr. MOTTLEYT The hon. member says that I
am partly correct. Am I straying too far afield?

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. seniormem-
ber for the City is addressing the Chair.

Mr. MOTTLEY: You are the only person I was
addressing since I was here. I was not addressing
anybody else. I may be straying too far afield, but I
know as a fact, that they refused to issue a permit
or licence for other persons to export yams, and the
reason was not that we did not have more than we
could use for local consumption. That, I know the
Minister cannot deny. Whatever the other reasons
are, we can only sum them up by saying that they
had the right to export and they did not want any
competition in this respect. However, Sir, I have
made my contribution to this debate. I will not be
voting for this Resolution and I would urge members
of the Opposition not to vote for it in protest against
this state of affairs. If you just sit down and allow
this Resolution to be passed like this, the people at
the B.M.C. will come to the conclusion that they can
draw salaries, buy what they like, carry out loads of
pork with two dead pigs at top, and sell the balance
to whomever they like. They canwrite cheques, bring
in pork and say that 7,000 pounds came in when only
2,000 pounds came in. This needs a protest, and no
member of the Opposition should vote for this. Let
them vote for it by the majority. We have already
given an opportunity to the B.M.C., and why should








2055


we give them further opportunity now? Are we going
on and going on like this? Are you coming with this
sort of thing all the time? It is clearly understood
that you have 40% in big business, then another 12%
and the Government sits down as a silent partner.
Is it not something to think of that the only business
that the Government can control and they put it into
private enterprise and it is making money, is the
Harbour? If they take it over tomorrow, they will
start to sink money from 7 o'clock in the morning.
Everybody is happy; the Union is getting the prices
it wants, and they are making money for the Govern-
ment. With everything else they put their hands to,
they are throwing away money.

I am not one of those people who believe that
certain public utilities should not be subsidized, be-
cause there are certain public utilities which have
to be subsidized for the benefit of the public. This
is not a public utility; what is this? This is a shop
which is set-up to buy things from peasants to pre-
vent the peasants from throwing them away. The
main thing is the fish. I would like the Minister to
tell me now if they have ever lost one cent on the re-
frigeration of fish. I challenge them to say that they
have been losing on this; what are you losing on?
Fish is the biggest commodity which they have been
handling and they have been making money on it. Then
what are they losing money on? It is just, plain un-
adulterated stealing in high places and now, to cap
it all, you bring in somebody who can show you how
to steal better. Are you making fun? Should we sit
down here and vote for this? I would think the mem-
bers of the Opposition to be as corrupt if they sat
down and voted for this thing that is going on. Mr.
Deputy Speaker, that is my contribution. I am not
voting for this Resolution at all.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
this Resolution for the sum of $1.35 million joins
the long line of Resolutions for money to plug up
sink holes after the Democratic Labour Party Gov-
ernment has thrown the taxpayers' money down these
sinks. We had the example of the Hilton Hotel $11
million the Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation -
$2 1/2 million and now we have come down to the
Barbados Marketing Corporation: and the Minister
tells us, in fact, thatwe shouldbe glad that he is only
asking for $1.35 million! We have had a speech in
which the Minister has spent 90% of his time telling
us what we all know, that the idea of a Marketing
Corporation is a good thing. He was not quite right
when he said that we agreed with it because we were
concerned in starting it or something like that. He
tells us that we were in favour of the establishment
of the Barbados Marketing Corporation. Wewere not
in favour of the B.M.C.;we createdit,we started it in
1961. We left it there for the Democratic Labour
Party to come alone, mismanage it and make it
necessary at this stage in 1968 for $700,000 of
losses to be written off. That is the chief point of
omission in the Minister's speech the fact that he
has glossed over the question of the writing off ef-
fectively of $100,000 a year of the monieslost in the
operation of this Corporation. The B.M.C. is not
going to be paying back this whole loan. Do not let


us fool ourselves with that. Right here we see that
the Government will itself repay $700,000 of the loan
together with interest thereon over the period of
ten years.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are being asked at a
time when the cost of living has risen as a result of
devaluation, when Government Capital Development
schemes have to be curtailed because of the lack of
money we are being askedto pay as a subsidy, as a
monument to inefficiency, the sum of $700,000 of the
taxpayers' money. The Government cannot find
money to build a secondary school, but they can find
money to throw away $700,000 of it completely lost
beyond repair in their mismanagement of the B.M. C.
over the last seven years. And every member of the

Cabinet has to bear his shares You cannot look at the
hon. junior member for St. Michael and the hon.
senior member for St. Andrew alone. The hon. junior
member for St. Michael, in fact, carried more of
the responsibility, and I say that quite freely, for
some of these losses, because it was during his
time that the chief amount of the stealing went on;
but the hon. senior member for St. Andrew, resolute
though some of his steps were, still has not taken
sufficient precaution to improve the attitude of per-
sons down at the Barbados Marketing Corporation
to a stage where stealing, fiddling and corruption
will no longer be possible.
3.25 p.m.

As far as I am concerned, every word that the hon.
senior member for the City, who has just sat down,
said about the attitude of the people down there can
be endorsed.

The Government and the principal Party in the
Opposition alike are Labour Parties. As far as our
Party is concerned, it has a'belief in public owner-
ship and a corresponding disbelief in private projects
at the people's expense in spheres where it may not
be appropriate. There can be no worse indictment
on a Labour Party than it takes something into public
ownership, or it operates something on a public basis
and it throws away money like this.

Every attack that has been made on a Govern-
ment that tries to practise democratic Socialism
starts with the attack that Government cannot run
things as efficiently as private business. The hon.
senior member for the City represents private busi-
ness, and it is obviously open to him to say that. As
Labour Parties, we have to remember that this is
the very thing we have to fight against. It seems that
it is only true that in countries where Labour Parties
come to power the Government cannot run things.

Students of history of the United States will re-
member in 1940 a part of WendellWilkie's campaign
for getting the Government out of the Tennessee
Valley Authority was that the United States Federal
Government could run things so much better than
private business that they would drive private busi-
nessmen out of, operation and prevent them from
making a profit. Indeed when President Eisenhower
came into power, he sold a number of businesses








2056


,that had been making money some of them had
been owned by the United States Government forever
one hundred years. President Eisenhower sold them
to private businesses because he said the Government
was operating these businesses so efficiently that pri-
vate enterprise could not compete with them. That is
what we should aim at, if we believe in Government
enterprise. We should not aim at having a place like
the Marketing Corporationwhere people feel that they
are working for the Government, and it does not
matter what happens with the money. Where else in
Barbados, besides Mr. Geoffrey Johnson's own
business, do you get provision businesses like this
losing money on this scale?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, a part of the trouble, of
course, has been the personnel of the Corporation
itself; but that has not been all of the trouble. We
get back to the question of the Government itself.
Things are condoned which should not be condoned.
From the very minute that the Chairman of the Bar-
bados Marketing Corporation, after walking about
telling a lot of lies that he loaned the Corporation
money; he gave it his cheque because the Corpora-
tion needed money, and this was money to be repaid -
(ASIDES). He told this to the members of the
Corporation and, I believe, to the Ministers also at
different times. From the minute he was proved
to be a dishonest vagabond, he should have been
prosecuted instead of pursuing the court scandal,
which the jury sent through the door. Surely, from
the jury's point of view, these poor boys catching a
pig carcass or two are as nothing compared to the
Senators in the seats of honour drawing cheques for
$10,000 to put in their own pockets. The entire Mar-
keting Corporation's attitude is what is at stake here.

Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the senior member
for the City called on the members of the Opposi-
tion to vote against this, and this is certainly what
we intend to do. We could not possibly, not conceiv-
ably, come in here to be asked to cast a verdict to
7 years' mismanagement and vote for the Resolution
which seeks to bail out the Government from the 7
years of mismanagement. It is all foolishness about
"The farmers need money, and there is no money
there on a Friday to pay them, and they will have to
scratch around." The farmers need money, Mr.
Deputy Speaker, but our not voting forthe Resolution
is not going to stop the farmers from getting money.
We have to be the conscience of the people in here.
We know that the B.M.C. has been cruelly and
wickedly mismanaged. It is speciousness in argu-
ment to suggest that if the Resolution is not voted for,
that down at the B.M.C. the farmers will have to be
told: "We have no money to buy your things." The
things that are being bought from the farmers are not
being bought to put in a glass-case. They are being
bought to be resold. If buying things from farmers
is so unprofitable that the House of Assembly has to
vote money for them, then they should not be bought.
The things are bought to be resold, and that is the
purpose of buying things from farmers. It is not like
motor cars which you are buying for Ministers or
Ambassadors, which we will come to later on.


The question of the Shrimp Plant and how the
capital had to be increased because it eventually
cost $410,000 to build allthe refrigeration equipment
that is a question of making money. It is not only
making money, but at $30,000 a month, which is the
figure the Minister gave us, it will only be a ques-
tion of three years before that entire Shrimp Plant
will be capitalised. Interest on capitalisationandde-
preciation at the rate of $410,000 will be paid off
in less than three years at the rate of $30,000 a
month. The fact that so much had to be spent to bring
in this profit is something against the Resolution;
you cannot bring that in aid of the Resolution. If
$30,000 a month is being paid by the Cold Storage, if
the whole operation was carried on that basis, it would
be a question of B.M.C. giving the Treasury $700,000
in profit. They cannot claim the aid of the fact that
the Cold Storage is making money to ask us to vote
for this; that because the Cold Storage is making
money, therefore the House of Assembly has to vote
$1.35 million to bail out the B.M.C. That, in effect,
is what is being suggested. That is not serious ar-
gument, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister says that he
does not want to be associatedwith anythingthat hap-
pened in the past, but he is associated with every-
thing that happened. He has been in the Ministry
since 1961, when the B.M.C. had been managed by
the Democratic Labour Party Government, and the
Minister was associated with what was happening
then. All of us have to be associated with it. No man
is an island, Mr. Deputy Speaker; each man is a
piece of the main, as the poet said. No man is an
island in the matter of Government andinthe matter
of collective responsibility. Everybody istogetherin
this, and everybody has to sink or swim in it. As far
as the members of the Opposition are concerned,we
are not sinking with the Barbados Marketing Corpora-
tion. The Government have come to ask for bail for
bailing out all their past misdeeds in the B.M.C.,
and we in the House of Assembly are being asked to
vote a surety of $1.35 million. The fact that we are
going to sign the bail does not mean that we have ap-
proved the crimes. We in the Opposition think that
there were crimes in the management of Barbados
Marketing Corporation. I, Mr. Deputy Speaker, could
never under any circumstances if a Minister comes
in here and says that "something has been going
badly in the past; but let us forget it; put our hands
in the taxpayers' money and see whether we can get
it going properly in the future" be a party to voting
for such a Resolution. I would negate the entire idea
of opposition for any person who is not bound by col-
lective responsibility.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, if you were not there and
you were on the floor of the House, I would expect
you to vote against it, if Mr. Speaker were in the
Chair, not being a member of the Government and
not being obliged to do it. I hope that as many mem-
bers as possible will come into the House and mark
their protest at the mismanagement of the B.M.C. by
voting against this Resolution.
3.35 p.m.








2057


Mr. SMITH: Mr. Deputy Speaker, this Resolution
is asking us to give the green light to the Barbados
Marketing Corporation to raise a very handsome
amount of money. I term it that we are the backers
of this note; we are not putting our hands into our
pockets and paying out this money, but if and when
the Barbados Marketing Corporation fails, we will
have to pay it. Now, Sir, when the Manager of a bank
is lending a borrower money with a backer, his eyes
are on the account which the guarantor has on the
bank, so that when the borrower fails the bank is
protected; and it is happening now in this case. The
bank is protected because they can put their hands
into the guarantor's pocket and take it out and de-
posit it on the account of the borrower.

Now the Minister has not satisfied me; he has
not really put up a case for this amount of money, and
I am acting as if I am the Bank Manager. He should
be in a position to tell me his turn-over if he gets
this money, what are his new plans rather than tell
me not to remember the past. How can we forget
the past when it is bound up in the present, as far
as this Corporation is concerned? It is my belief
that this money is to pay off past debts, and this is
where the B.M.C. is going to find itself in trouble
again. No sooner than they get this amount and wipe
off the slate, they are going to be in trouble by not
having money to carry on. When one is borrowing
money for a business, he cannot just borrow to pay
off; he must borrow enough to pay off and to have
some for working capital. I want to know what is in
the back of the minds of the people who are running
the Corporation, and the improvements they envisage
to offset the interest on this money yearly. If you
cannot satisfy me that yourturnoverwillbe such that
you will be able to pay the interest, you are running
into trouble again. It is all well and good for the Min-
ister to get up here and tell us what is happening with
the farmers. I daresay that if he calls upon the far-
mers who are benefiting from the Marketing Cor-
poration, there would be no more than I can count on
my fingers, or they may not be getting anymore than
if they came to me every Friday or Saturday. How
many farmers are benefiting from it? I am going to
tell the Minister that the money that is going to be
thrown away would buy every farmer, and you would
still have the most of the money to put into the bank;
so when you talk about farmers, I would like you
to define the word "farmers". I take it that you mean
those people with one and two acres, but not the
plantations.

The hon. member mentioned diversification, but
diversification is not a 'tomorrow' or 'next week'
project. Diversification takes years, and the Minis-
ter and myself will die and go to Heaven before that
comes into operation. Even if diversification takes
place and you are planning at the Marketing Cor-
poration to accommodate the commodities from your
diversification, you are still a little too early. When
you take a few thousand acres of land out of the cul-
tivation of cane, what are you going to substitute? Are
you going to bring in onions or English potatoes?
When it comes to onions and English potatoes, I was


hearing ever since that there was so muchto be done
at the Agricultural Stations.

The Government has a few hundred acres of land
in St. Andrew. How many fields have they used for
diversification and what are they growingthere? You
have to set an example so that others can follow.
You cannot ask for all this moneyto be spent and de-
pend wholly and solely on the peasants. You could do
that if you did not have land of your own; but if you want
us to believe that planting canes is thing of the past,
you should tell us how many acres you have planted
in vegetables and other crops. If you have not done
this,why are you running so fast to borrow this
money pending diversification? As I said, very few
of us will be alive to see diversification really work-
ing, because when you plant a few onions and English
potatoes and what not, what are you going to do with
the people? It is no mean sport to have 200 or 300
workers on a plantation and you ask the plantation to
plant half the canes in order to diversify. What are
you going to do with the workers?
3.45 p.m.

I feel that you are making a very big mistake.
You cannot throw away the old-time religion which is
sugar cane. I think that the Government should take
off their hats, form fours and go and beg the places
which are buying the sugar to open their hands and
do something to help us and let us try and keep that
sugar cane growing. When the sugar-buying countries
hear that Barbados is going to diversify and do this
and that, they would not care about increasing the
price of sugar. Let the people know that unless they
can pay us a proper price, we cannot live and I do
not think that those people would like to hear that
the people in Barbados are dying from starvation
when they could lend a hand by paying a few more
dollars for our sugar. We have got to do that: and
after that, we can then think about diversifying cut
off an acre this year or ten acres this year, try with
that and see how it works. But how is the Minister
going to do it? He has only mentioned the word. He
should even have had it laid out and told us how he
is going about it and how the farmers will benefit
from it.

I am sure that one hon. member has mentioned
it here today, that you should have advisers, people
from the Agricultural Department going around and
advising the farmers as to what to grow, how to grow
it, when to grow it and make the necessary recom-
mendations to the farmers, letting them think that they
would not plant things which we cannot handle. Whose
are those advisers? I think there is a shortage of
them. I feel within myself that the Agricultural De-
partment would do a better job or they would do
more than what they are doing, but they are not pay-
ing these officers; they are not paying the men. Every
now and then you can hear of one leaving the Depart-
ment. The young ones who are hanging around the
Department, I would not call them washouts, but they
cannot do any better. Every one of them who can do
better is not staying because the money is too small.
You cannot get proper men to be working with you








2058


4f they are dissatisfied or you are paying small
money. If you want to do big business, you have to
pay big money. I can call the names of a few of the
advisers who were in that Department, who wouldbe
able to advise the peasants and tell them what to
grow; but what on earth can an adviser tell us here
in Barbados to grow more than what we know al-
ready? I want to know if he will be making his own
produce or something to produce dew. We have cab-
bage, beets and carrots. I can very nearly call every-
thing that we can grow here in Barbados, and do you
want an officer to tell you that? It is the other things
which we do not know anything at all about, something
which we can plant, and we will be able to can it and
do most things cherries, peaches andthings of that
sort. Well, then you are coming home, now you are
cooking with gas when you are doing that; but for
him to come and just say that you should just plant
cabbage or something like that, every one of us knows
that. You know that, Sir, although you are not a planter
but if one goes around your house, he will find a lot
of these things planted. Therefore, youwould notwant
any adviser to tell you what you shouldput there. By
working that for such a long time, you know what your
land can produce; you know that this will grow cab-
bage better than onions. Your long years of experi-
ence will advise you now as to what to plant.

In my opinion, the farmers know that already;
so you want to tell them something new. By just
mentioning the word "diversification" to the far-
mers is not enough to merit our vote on this, and
the Government must be careful in investing in
everything. When the Barbados Marketing Corpora-
tion was coming into being, it was not the intention
of the Corporation to sell a box of carbolic soap or
a tin of fly-spray; that belongs to the business peo-
ple already. I would expect the Corporation to deal
with the cold storage of fish and things of that sort;
but now you are going downthere andyou are getting
a tin of milk or a case of milk, and that is competing
with the businessmen of this country. I am telling
you here and now that you are competing against
yourself because when the businessman would make
a dollar and you manage to squeeze 40 cents or 50
cents out of it by way of income tax and other taxes,
you are preventing him from making that by allowing
the Corporation to sell his goods, and the Corpora-
tion is throwing away what it is selling. They are not
making anything, and the businessman is losing. What
is the Government getting off at? A concern like the
Barbados Marketing Corporation should be bringing
in money. The B.M.C. will only buy flying fish when
they are being sold at 2 cents or 3 cents a piece;
when they are above that price the public can buy
them, but when there is a glut, the B.M.C. buys
them. That is good; they will keep them until they
are scarce and then sell them to you and to me at
17 cents a piece. That is a first-class profit. They
cannot lose by buying these dozens of flying fish at
2 cents or 3 cents each and keeping them for a month
or even two months and then selling them at 17 cents
each. I say that that is a first-class profit.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
J hate to interrupt the hon. member, but this does


mot happen at the B.M.C. We do not buy fish at 3
cents apiece and sell them at 17 cents a piece. The
fish are bought from the fishermen at 15 cents a
pound; they are sold whole at one price and, when
filleted, at another price. The iced fish are sold
at 10 cents each and the filleted fish are sold at
12 cents.

Mr. SMITH: I now believe, Sir, that the Minister
does not know what is going on down there, and that is
why we have so much trouble today. I challenge the
Minister that the people down there buy the fish as
cheaply as they possibly can, but when they are being
sold at 10 cents each, they do not buy them.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,

on a point of elucidation. We are not fighting on this.
I would like the hon. member to know and to be as-
sured that the fish is bought when I started the de-
bate I pointed out that the B.M.C. was there to
stabilise the price to the producer, and we consider
the fisherman the producers of fish.
3.55 p.m.

At no time does the B.M.C. pay anything less
than 15V a pound to the fishermen for flying fish. It
is a guaranteed price to the fishermen. During the
early months after the fishing season, the price of
whole fish is cheaper than later in the year because
the question of refrigeration has to be taken in
consideration. It will cost about 3V per pound per
month for refrigeration according to the statistics of
the B.M.C., and a decision had been taken recently
that for fish kept in cold storage until, say, Novem-
ber, one would have to pay something like 1i per
pound more than one pays for the fish in the first
three or four months when the fish was put in cold
storage. Since that decision has taken place, we have
not reached November or October yet.

What I am trying to explain to hon. members is
that the rumours are not all correct. They can check
on these things. If any hon. member asks any ques-
tion about the B.M.C. oranythingundermy Ministry,
I am prepared to give him chapter andverse and all
the facts to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would have
stopped him long ago, but I see that you do not want
to stop him. I wanted to let him climb up. There is
an old saying that the higher a monkey climbs, the
more he shows his tail, and if he climbs too high you
will see what is under his tail. The Hon. Minister
is telling me something about per pound. I do not
know how many fish weighs a pound. He says that
three fish weigh a pound. He also says that the Cor-
poration buys fish at 15V per pound, and sells them
at 1V or 1 d more per pound. I am speaking subject
to correction, and if I am wrong he can correct me.
Let us say that three fish weigh one pound, and you
add a cent to the price and make it 160 a pound. Now,
if your humble servant......


Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order.
No, no, no.








2059


Mr. SMITH: I am not giving way again.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Will both hon. mem-
bers please sit. The hon. senior member for St.
Joseph was addressing the Chair. The senior mem-
ber for St. Andrew rose saying, "No, no, no." The
Chair does not know whether he has risenon a point
of order or of elucidation.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On point of order, Mr.
Deputy Speaker. I said so. The hon. member quoted
me as saying that they sell at 160 per pound, but I
did not say so.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your point of order
has been made, and you will have the right of reply.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Man, if they misquote
me 10 times, I am going to get up.

Mr. SMITH: The hon. member saidthattheybuy
flying fish at not less than 150 per pound. I wonder
whether he can remember saying that? You can get
flying fish in the market at night at 30 or 40 each -
6 for a quart. Are you going to tell me, when fish
are sold in the market at that price, that the Mar-
keting Corporation is still going to buy them at not
less than 1507 (Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Yes.) Then
you will not have any in the market to be sold, be-
cause the fishermen would take the fish to the Mar-
keting corporation. There must be some time when
the Marketing Corporation will say that it cannot
take any more. Are you going to tell me that fisher-
men will wait in the market until ten or eleven
o'clock at night to sell fish at ldeach when the Mar-
keting Corporation would take the fish from them at
four o'clock in the evening at 50 each? What is the
hon. Minister trying to tell this House? Knowing
fishermen as I do, a fisherman, abakerand a stone-
cutter do not make fun when it comes to money. He
is going to tell me that a fisherman can go straight
to the Marketing Corporation as soon as he lands and
get 50 each for his fish, and he will hang around and
pay somebody else to sell them for him at Idl

Sir, I buy fish regularly at Id or 30 each; but
when the price is high I do not worry to buy. When
fish are cheap, I buy a lot of fish and store them in
the refrigerator. I am not able to buy fish at 100 or
11 each. The Hon. Minister is going to tell me that
fishermen will wait until ten or eleven o'clock to
sell the fish at 30 each whenthe Corporation is buy-
ing them at 501 It does not sound good to me. The
Minister is trying now to make out a case. It is not
true to say that the Corporation buys fish at 150 be-
cause when the price reaches as high as 100 each
you can go in the market and buy them. At that stage
the fishermen will have nothing to do with the Mar-
keting Corporation. The fishermen will only deal
with the Marketing Corporation when they cannot get
their fish sold. So long as they can get their fish
sold, they will never go to the Corporation. When
the Minister says that the Corporation buys fish at
not less than 154, who would believe him? I do not
think the Minister believed himself when he said
that.


Now, Sir, I am saying that they buy them at Id or
30. The people have to buy them in a nice plastic
bag at 5 for 850. I do not know if the increased cost
is due to the plastic wrapping. I am sure the Minis-
ter does not know how they are sold. If the Corpora-
tion is buying fish at 150, keep them so long in cold
storage, and then sell the fish at 170, then the Cor-
poration is only throwing away money.
4.05 p.m.

They only buy them when they are five cents
each. This Corporation is throwing away too much
money, and the Government should be very careful
in spending the taxpayers' money. I have to be very
careful and do not let them get away with anything
when it comes to spending money, because about two
or three weeks ago the Income Tax people dropped
in at me and would not leave until I wrote a cheque
for arrears of income tax. They are no longer waiting
until you come in and pay. All the businessmen are
in arrears. I am not telling you that this happens with
me every year; but when you are in arrears they
come to collect the arrears. I am not going to be
satisfied with these people throwing away mohey year
after year and not one person is charged. Nobody
has gone up Hindsbury for two or three months'
vacation. They carry away the money and that is the
end of it, and then the Minister comes in here and
tries to mislead us to get more money to throw away
again.

I have just read in the papers recently that the
Corporation is bringing down something for packing.
What are they going to pack? If they are talking about
yams and potatoes, I will say thatwe have never had
a glut of yams yet in this country. I never heard that
planters had to throw away yams, but I know that
everybody cannot get them; sowhenyoutellme that
you are shipping yams out, you are only carrying the
price up more to the local consumer. You can throw
me anywhere, because I was a planter. I was the
Manager and owner of Little Spa Plantation. You
may get a glut of breadfruit, because whenthe rains
come in, they all ripen at one time and do not keep;
so you hav _o get them off. But this has not hap-
pened recently, because you start to eat the bread-
fruit before they have come out properly; so when
the rains come in, nearly all have been eaten. It is
just. like with the sea-eggs. There will be very few
to be caught on Monday. If the manager is shipping
breadfruit, that is all right; but the last Government
had to compel planters of this country to plant food.
If the Minister is going to concentrate on shipping
yams, let him plant some at Haggatts and Bawdens
where they have land. The factory has been closed,
but I would bet that if you go there you would still
see cane growing, and yet they are asking people to
diversify. I cannot understand how the Minister is
talking, because he is making plans to have a pack-
ing plant, though he has not said for what purpose.

I said just now that the B.M.C. will never be a
paying concern. When yougo there andenquire about
the salaries, you have to look around to see what is
being done for them. I am not against employing peo-
ple, but you can let those receiving $300 and up go








2060


about their business and leave the others who are
really doing the work. I cannot for the life of me see
why you want all these big shots down there. I went
there one evening and I saw a box of carbolic soap
and such items in a glass case which you can find in
any supermarket or at the fancy shop at the corner
of Bank Hall. These things are being sold in a build-
ing that would bring in not less than $1,000 a month
in rent. If the Governmentturned over anew leaf and
called for tenders to run that place with the cold
storage and everything else, you would be surprised
to know how much rent the Government would get.
They are losing money now, and they would gain
through that. If it were keeping the puppy's tail out
of the ashes, so to speak, it would be O.K.; but it is
losing money, and some people are writing their own
cheques.



I do not know if what the hon. senior member
for Bridgetown said about one of the boys down there
is true. I know you can say anything in here because
you are protected; but because you are protected you
should not lie on people. I would have to believe it
because the Minister did not defend him. I want the
Minister to know that when either one of us cast
anything of that sort on a Head of Department or an
employee in his Department, it is his duty to defend
him because he cannot defend himself. Itwas a seri-
ous accusation to make that you have a man so high
up in a Government Department who has so many
convictions for larceny. If I were the Minister, that
person would have to go if it is true. Under the cir-
cumstances, could you expect them to get otherthan
losses down there? There are some people that
money is so afraid of that, as soon as they come
near it, it disappears; so if you do not take it up and
it disappears, it has still gone through their presence.
Instead of coming here and telling us the truth and
nothing but the truth, he has been telling us all kinds
of hanky-panky, nancy stories about diversification
and about the farmers, and if you ask a farmer to-
morrow what he thinks about the Barbados Market-
ing Corporation, he would tell you to get rid of it.
4.15 p.m.


I will bet you tomorrow that you will get a ma-
jority saying: "Get rid of it because itis of no use to
us". He has to make out a case; he must make out a
good case and not try to mislead this House. As the
hon. senior member for the City has said, to show
you that it is weak, it is not doing the business to
carry out or offset the overhead expenses. This
Government does not see what the big brains in this
country are doing. You look and see what Dacosta &
Mussons and Wilkinson & Challenor are doing.All the
big boys are coming together, andwhat is wrong w-ith
that? Do you think they are doing it just because they
can do it? They are coming together in order to get
away from overhead expenses. You have the Purity
Bakery and Johnson & Redman; they are doing that in
order to get away from these expenses. But this
Government is not doing that; they areyet employing.


I think that there is too much politics in that build-
ing down there. It would be a political building be-
cause in anything which comes into the administration
of the Government, there is a certain amount of
politics; but there is too much politics in it. You
,pick up anything with two eyes and send there and
at the end of the month you take up a big cheque
and put in his or herhand, forgettingthat wages, and
so on, must come from profits. They cannot come
from anywhere else. If you should put your hand
deep into the working capitalof the place to pay out
money every week, it would not be stealing; but the
money is disappearing just as in the case of some
small shopkeepers. They are crying out that they
cannot do this or that. But what is the trouble? They
are eating out themselves. The profit which they are
getting may be $10 a week and the upkeep of their
homes may be $25 or $30, so that in every week they
are $20 down and theywill always have to make other
people miserable, borrowing from me this week and
from you next week and putting the blame on the busi-
ness. That is what is happening now.




The Minister feels that when he gets this money
the troubles will be all over down there. That is his
belief and feeling and he makes us to believe that to-
day. I am telling him that that is not so; it is worse
for him. He would do a better job if he does not en-
courage us to allow this money to pass out because
he would make more money. You do not make money
by borrowing, andwheneveryou are borrowing money
you should look out to replace it byway of a turnover;
otherwise you are in trouble. Igo to the Bank Manager
tomorrow and take $8,000 or $10,000 and I do not
watch to see what is happening weekly I do not see
that my profit is 10% or 20% in the dollar and my
turnover would have to be double that so as to pay the
interest and do something else; do you mean to say
that I take $10,000 from hi:r put it in the Bank, my
Bank statement looks good andeveryweekl am writ-
ing a cheque? I tell you that you will find yourself
in Felix's kitchen early. It is all rightto go for it; it
is all right to let your advisers tell you it is all
right for your manager to tell you that if we can
get a certain amount we can do this or that, but do
not rely on your advisers when it comes to financial
matters, especially the principal. I can understand
if it were you or anybody else, but do you know that
the Principal Iwould have to say of one of the best
schools in this country would have to knowmathema-
tics backwards and everything by heart?





I wonder if the Principal is a Principal in the
same way as the Prime Minister is aneconomist. You
must know your stuff, and this particular Minister
would know more about figures than anybody else;
but it appears that he is allowing them to take him
for a ride. He is only thinking. "If I get this money,
she will be on hr feet; we will be able to pay the far-









2061


mers and buy more goods and we will be able to get
along." Where are you going to get this from? Bor-
rowing this money when the people are not bringing
it in, is not going to help you. You have to look after
that business first. You go to a Bank Manager and he
will sit back inhis chair, ring abell and say to some-
one; "Bring Mr. Smith's account for me" before he
talks about lending money. He will go through the
account to see how things are going. He can sit in
his chair and manage any business; he can sit there
just as I am standing here and tellthe Minister what
is happening down there. The Manager will do this
because of knowledge and commonsense. The Mana-
ger will say: "Mr. Smithyour Balance Sheet does not
merit this amount of money because you will notice
that your turnover is so much a month and when I
lend you this money, it will make your balance higher
and you will have to look for a bigger turnover to off-
ser it". If the present turnover cannot get the ball
rolling and you add more to it because his interest
has to come the job is done. When the Manager
calls for Mr. Smith's statement and sees thatevery-
thing is in order, he wants to see the turnover. He
will say that the turnover is at so much, the per-
centage is at so much per month and at this rate his
interest will be so much. That is okay. If you do not
know what is being done, I am telling you that he is
not going right away like the Minister who is coming
in and expecting us to say"Yes" to this Resolution. I
cannot or will not encourage such a thing. Let him put
his house inorder; let us knowwhathe intends carry-
ing into the building for sale, what is the turnover,
what are the profits from the farmers both in and
out of the Island; give us a breakdown and let us know
how the ball is rolling and I will say "Aye". Just
telling us about diversification and farmers wanting
money is not good enough for me.



Sir, I do not want t6 see any more money being
thrown away down there. Iwould prefer that they wipe
of the slate, pay all the bills, start afresh by bring-
ing in some private individuals and try and get the
most they can from that by way of seeing how much
money you would get in per year. It is not so much
rent; it is that you will get income tax out of the same
people; you are going to get about 60%~ by way of in-
come tax. The Government must be more careful
about making "nay nay" investments of this kind,
which are throwing away money, and lookforinvest-
ments which are going to bring in money. Of course,
you will still have to employ people. A private in-
dividual cannot take it over now and throw the people
outside. In your negotiations you will have to see that
you will have to keep the staff or a certain amount of
the staff and keep them to that agreement because we
are not in favour of throwing people outside. If you
try and try and you are throwing this money away,
you should find out otherways of operating. The Deep
Water Harbour is making money, and it is my belief
that if you did not have a certain number of private
business people in it, it might nothavewon out. That
is how I feel about it.
4.25 p.m.


I always feel thatthe Governmentis like a centi-
pede. The moment anybody says "centipede",every-
body says "kill him" and everybody is out to kill
him. From the moment you hear the word"Govern-
ment", everybody is out to get something. That is
my opinion. Government must keep themselves out of
businesses that have too many back doors. When
these businesses have so many backdoors, Govern-
ment must keep away and stand by to get income tax
out of the businesses, because I think company tax
today is something like 40 in the $1.00.



I would never say one word tomorrow if the
Government would keep out of these business places,
and in order to keep things going they could take, say,
50 in the $1.00 forincome tax. A private individual
will get along, and he will be able to pay his income
tax, trade tax, and the Government will get something.
I would never advocate that Government should give
up the Deep Water Harbour, because it is making
money. You are throwing away a lot of money in pub-
lic transport, but the members of the public are
benefiting from it. I will give my views about that
later.




Who is benefiting from the B.M.C.? I do not
know who is getting anything from it. I know that the
taxpayers Will have to foot the bill. The Minister will
get up andltell us that the Government is lending or
giving this money to the B.M.C.; we are only giving
the green light; we are only backing the note to allow
the B.M.C. to get the money. That is true; but if
the B.M.C. should go out of business tomorrow,who
will stand the\loss? Youwill see a Resolution coming
here, and we Will have to pay out the money. That is
how I feel about\this matter. Ifeelthat an investiga-
tion should be made andaReport submittedto us be-
fore this money is given out. I also feel that a
Committee should be set up to go into this matter
before the money is given out. It should not be a
Committee of yard fowls; it should be a Committee of
hard-headed business men who will go into matters,
and let us know if there is possibility that the Cor-
poration will ever be able to pay its way. If the mem-
bers of the Committee recommend that it should be
carried on, then we would agree to that.





Mr. Deputy speaker, during an investigation it
may be found that the B.M.C. is paying out more than
it is receiving. The Minister says that some things
are not altogether suitable, but the Corporation buys
them. I do not agree with that. If the Marketing Cor-
poration found that I turnedupwith abag of old okras,
it should not buy them. It would be better to give a
man a bus fare so that he could go back home than
to buy bad things from him. Why buy things at a loss?
If the Corporation found that certain things were









2062


- perishable, then it should not buy them. It would be
better to give the farmer something to buy lunch. Do
not buy things that would be no goodto anybody. You
do not run a business that way. In fact, that was not
the intention of those who are responsible for the
B.M. C.


The other day I read in the Press that you had
to throw away a lot of meat. I wonder what has hap-
pened with that particular person who is responsible
for that sort of thing. I understand that due to his
carelessness he failed to do something the peo-
ple were afraid to buy the pork. That is throwing
money into the sea. It was carelessness on some
body's part. If a machine is to be kept running, and
you know that if it stops running you stand to lose,
even when you are closing down at nights a watchman
should be there to make a report when the machine
stops. You should not take a chance to go home at
nights knowing that if the machine stops youwill lose
thousands of dollars.




If the Minister had given us a breakdown, it would
be different. He has askedus to forget what has hap-
pened before. What he is doing now cannot merit all
of this money. What are the real intentions. What
recommendations have he received from the experts?
If the recommendations are misleading, let them
mislead us. Tell us that youwant the money to do this
and you will get that. Must we give you money in the
same old way? I would be worse than the Minister to
agree with this.




Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Deputy Speaker, last Tuesday
when the Minister was about to introduce this Reso-
lution, or was trying to get it through the House, he
should have known that the Oppositionwould have said
"Aye". There was absolutely no problem in saying
"Aye". "Aye" is an exclamation, in a Barbadian
term, of agony or pain. Some members over here
shouted for "Aye' and that is the "Aye" the Min-
ister heard.




It is impossible, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for us to
support this Resolution, and I wish to join my col-
leagues in making a few comments on it. To ask us
to support this Resolution, after six years of mis-
management of the B.M.C. is like asking us to be
trained to take a flight to the moon.
4.35 p.m.




We could not and we are not going to. This coun-
try finds itself in the unfortunate position to be sad-
dled with four white elephants: C.B.C., the Hilton
Hotel, the Pine Hill Dairy and the Barbados Market-


ing Corporation. It would appear that at this rate
the taxpayers of this country will be called upon to
shoulder the financing of these Corporations over a
period of years.


Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Addendum explains it-
self verywell because it says that forvarious reasons
the Corporation has not been able to make the pro-
gress in these matters which it was expected to make.
Indeed, the Corporation has operated at a deficit from
its inception.


The Minister in his opening remarks laudedthe
Barbados Labour Party, Mr. Speaker -I do not think
he did it intentionally when he said that the B.M.C.
is finding employment for 200 people. That shows
beyond any shadow of doubt that itwas the foresight
of the Barbados Labour Party to create employment
for the masses.


Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on
a point of elucidation, I never said that the B.M.C.
employed 200 people. I said that the Democratic
Labour Party added a shrimp-processing plant
costing $410,000 which was not in the original plan
of the B.M.C. that the Barbados Labour Party had.
This was an innovation on the part of the D.L.P. who
saw the wisdom in bringing into this country a shrimp
industry which is now providing employment for 200
people and a gross revenue of $30,000 per month.


Mr. CRAIG: I thank the Minister for his ex-
planation. This does not necessarily mean that it
was not the foresight of the Barbados Labour Party
to create a corporation like the Barbados Marketing
Corporation. What the Minister has said is that we
have built a home and they have added a bedroom to
it. However, there is one thing that puzzles me in
this Resolution and it is where it says: "It was
therefore considered advisable to employ a firm of
management consultants to advise on the measures
which should be taken to place the operations of the
Corporation on a sound basis. The recommendations
made by the consultants fall into three groups." No-
where in this, Mr. Deputy Speaker, did the consultants
suggest firing the whole Marketing Corporation staff,
purging it, and forgetting the idea that to get a job
there you must have a passport from the Party in
power. They are the people responsible for it. If
you go there to get a job, you are asked where is
your passport. The people who support them are the
ones who have got them in this unfortunate position.

When a commercial bank can refuse to lend
money to a Government which reigns supreme, it is
a censure on the inability and mishandling of the af-
fairs of the place for which Government is asking to
borrow the money. This shows that the banks them-
selves have no confidence in the management of the
Barbados Marketing Corporation. The Minister
however comes inhere and asks us to support a Reso-
lution and puts up a pancake argument that they em-







2063'


ploy 200 people, and this is to help the people with,
their produce. That was the original intention of the
Barbados Marketing Corporation, but that is notwhat
is happening now. It is now being run like a super-
market. If you go there you can buy polish, pins,
toothpaste, gooseberries and dunks which are ab-
solutely nothing to do with the original idea of help-
ing the people who bring in produce, because the
Addendum states that the Barbados Marketing Cor-
poration was established mainly for the following
purposes:- (a) to stimulate, facilitate and improve
the production, marketing and processingof produce
in the Island, particularly for the benefit of the pro-
ducer. There is nobody in Barbados who produces
polish or toothpaste; so they are in direct competi-
tion with the supermarkets, and I challenge the
Minister in his reply to denythat single supermar-
ket proprietor can go to the Barbados Marketing
Corporation and get vegetables from them. The Mar-
keting Corporation has more customers than the
supermarkets themselves. Hotels buy directly from
them; they carry a credit, and maybe that is where
some of the money is going because you may find
people who come here for afewweeks or months on
holiday with a fancy name like Lord So-and-So who
goes to the B.M.C. and gets credit because he may
be a friend of certain people from a certain Party,
and when he is ready to go, he leaves a bill of
$4,000 or $5,000, all in the Geoffrey Johnson racket.
None of these people is prosecuted, but a poor fellow
is hounded down. I know the Minister would be in
sympathy with that young man, but it is said that the
small man pays the price of the big man's deeds.

Now this Resolution says, Mr. Deputy Speaker,
that the Government is giving the Barbados Market-
ing Corporation $700,000. This is not good enough
and it is not fair. It is unfortunate that the Minister
finds himself in this Ministry, Let us face up to
reality. The Minister is just another man. He cannot
go down to the Marketing Corporation andwait around
to see who is bringing out a pig and who is stealing
money. I expect him to come here and defend his
Ministry. The job of a Minister, I believe, is a hard
one, but the Minister cannot within his heart of
hearts feel sincere in coming here to ask for this
money and probably only does it because he finds
himself in the position as Minister of Agriculture and
has to carry out the policy of Government. I would
have liked to hear hon. members on that side if they
were over here attacking the Resolution if we had
brought it here. I see the Leader of the House
laughing. I would have been a happy man even if I
were not a member of the House or of any Party to
sit in the Gallery and hear the Opposition in 1959-
1960 when they had ontheirbiting jackets attacking
Government on a Resolution of this nature. They
would have had a public meeting and a protest march
out here; but we are still a bit too complacent, and I
have always told the Leader of my Party that. How
can one, Mr. Deputy Speaker, call on a country with
a revenue of $55 million to under-write this kind
of expenditure? You have just given $2 million to
C.B.C. which will go down the drain again, and this
$1.35 million will go down the drain, because after
six years of managing a business you cannot see


anything going right, and you have to ask the banks
to give you a chance to do well. Something has to be
wrong. You got rid of the Chairman which I thought
would have curbed the problems there; but it appears
that the same thing is happening again.
4.45 p.m.

I am calling on the Minister not only to have con-
sultants coming to tell you how to manage it, but
also to have anenquiry. Get anenquiry, get some de-
tectives and put down there because somebody must
get locked up for carrying away the taxpayers' money
all the time. Then you come in here and put up a
"paw-paw" case What case can the Minister have?
The Minister has my sympathy. I made the remark
among my colleagues that he has gone on very well.
I know that he is fullof steam and he is going to fight
back, but you cannot flog adeadhorse; it is not going
to move. If you had $1,350,000 in your hands, the
same thing is going to happen again, unless you have
an enquiry into the whole management, not having
these consultants who come down here. One fellow
will work from 8. a.m. until p.m., and then he will
go and "fire" his cocktails. He is nothing to do with
what happens in the night. He may be dealing with
the technical side of it, but what you want is to plant
some people down there and find out who is stealing
No one who is stealing two pounds of pork is carrying
away this money; there are some people who have
mauby pockets and champagne mouths. I am telling
the Minister this, not only as a member of Parlia-
ment, but as a friend. Iwishhim well in his Ministry;
put some detectives down there andyouwillbe doing
a good job and leave the high-powered Commissions.

It states in this Resolution that the Government
will be repaying $700,000 out of the loan together
with interest thereon over a period of ten years. I
think the Minister will agree that there is no fixed
rate of bank interest in town. Some banks charge
8%, some charge 9%, and I believe that the Canadian
Bank of Commerce is going to charge 7 3/4%. Ac-
cording to this Resolution, from time to time, ac-
cording to how the interest rates are fixed, the
interest will be repaid. You really do not know what
it is going to cost over a period of ten years. The
Minister of Communications and Works has saidthat
there will be another devaluation of the pound, and
how can you really ascertainwhatthe rateswill be?
This will end up with your paying away almost another
$1.2 million. We are allpayingthis, you Mr. Minis-
ter, and you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wish to make it
abundantly clear that it is not the policy of the Gov-
ernment, I feel this within myself, to run an or-
ganization for the purpose of losing money. The
Government's duty is to remain in power as long as
they can, and therefore it istheirdesire to do things
to enhance their reputation, and it is left to the Minis-
ter himself or the Ministers themselves in the various
departments to make sure that they are carrying out
the policy of the Governmenteffectively. This isnot
doing a good job at all.

As to Haggatts Factory, through the eddoes it
has gone. It is all old iron and you cannot use that.
(A MEMBER: You are flogging a dead iron now.) I







2064


__am flogging the Haggatts Factory just as how the.
Government is trying to flog the B.M.C. and that is
flogging a dead horse. For six years they have been
beating the B.M.C. The Resolution says that there is
a deficit over A* period of six years. There is some-
thing else wrong outside of having the consultants
down. I wish, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to say this quite
clearly, like my colleagues; they have said quite a
bit today and I,. n my closing remarks would like to
stress again on the Minister that he should have an
enquiry set up to find out not only of the technical
consultants, as you have:here, but a local enquiry
set up to find out, exactly what is the problem with
the B.M.C. -We cannot continue at this rate. It may
be that you-will come back and say: "I cannot do any
better, I have to pay the people ;give me ,another half
million dollars",: and youwillgo through at this rate
all the time,zTherefore, in the interest of my country
and in the interest of your country, Mr. Deputy
Speaker, I sincerely hope that the Minister will not
give a deaf ear to.my suggestions.

Mr. HOPPIN: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Barbados
Marketing Corporation has come in for some criti-
cism from the members of the Opposition and they
have voiced their opinion quite frankly, that they are
not supporting this. Resolution for $1.350,000; but'I
am of a contrary opinion. When. the B.M.C. was
started six:years ago, there was an attempt to en-
courage the growth and marketing of local crops in
the Island; therefore, it.would be of national assis-
tance both to the grower and the consumer. Sir, as
in most things in the:embryonic stage orin the early
days, the B.M.C. had its troubles. Most of the trou-
bles of the B.M.C. can be put downto inexpert hand-
ling, but in the inexpert handling of the affairs of the
B.M.C., money was lost there is no doubt about it -
and there has: been a great deal, as has been ex-
plained by the Minister and by some of the members
of the Opposition; but because of the loss of this
money, it has become a' ground for political cri-
ticism, as would be expected. This is venture which
has been started by the Govermnent, andl cannot see,
at this stage, the Government allowing it to drop
through. That would be just like a man who puts his
hand to the plough andturned back. There have been
some changes at the B.M.C. both in the administra-
tion and in its operational policy, and I feel that the se
changes will show some progress and benefit to the
island; therefore, I am asking that this Resolution
be carried, through and well supported because the
B.M.C. must be given a chance to renderthe service
which the public wants, and which, I think, the public
deserves.
4.55 p.m.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I
would think that no:miember of the Opposition came
in here feeling that this Resolution should be passed
without a full debate. On Tuesday last, I persisted in
putting the Oppostion's 'point of-view thatwe were not
prepared to go with it; it was a matter for serious
consideration, and there were only two or three of
us in the House at that time, and we did not have a
chance of thinking_.the matter over.


Obviously when one remembers the history of the
Marketing Corporation, we needed, at least, some
time for checking up what was askedforin the past,
and what explanations Government gave, either by
way of answering questions or otherwise, for the
fact that the Marketing Corporation was not being
efficiently run. I put it mildly when I say "not being
efficiently run". Of course, I could use more ap-
propriate language and say, very badly, and, indeed
criminally run.

I am glad that Mr. Speaker ruled thatwe should
not go on with the matter because of the nature of
the Opposition's arguments. I am sure that even
Government members non-Ministers at any rate
are glad that this was not taken on Tuesday, be-
cause although I have, in the short interval between
Tuesday and today, gathered much inside informa-
tion much information about inside matters, I
should say yet, one or two things have been said
today, chiefly by the hon. senior member for Bridge-
town, which have opened my eyes.

However sympathetic we might have been with
the attempt by the Government to redeem the past
though the hon. Minister in charge of the Resolu-
tion seemed to be serious but, of course, it was quite
facetious to use the expression "wipe out the past"
how can you, in the name of heavens, if a man with
convictions comes up before you, and you are won-
dering whether to give him a chance, say "forget
the past"? You would have to say that "with your
convictions, what have you shown, or what fresh
arguments are you bringing up now, to ask me to
trust you for the future."


I did not know, until the hon. seniormember for
Bridgetown said it, that Mr. Sides was actually a man
with convictions for criminal offences. How can this
Government ever defend themselves before the pub-
lic for asking us to come and agree with them to pass
a Resolution for a huge sum of money,when we have
been told that a person with a past criminal record
is still a prominent member of their staff? I am told
that he is only on probation, butwhyput him on pro-
bation in a post where his former activities could be
repeated? You do not do that; you try him somewhere
where temptation to commit a crime is notgreat, or
is not existent. Then on top of that, reference has
been made by previous speakers to the statementby
the Minister about buying things which they know they
cannot sell, because the things are bad, only to help
the farmers.

If no other word was said, if I had come in here
prepared to vote for this Resolution, as soon as I
heard that I would promptly change my mind. There
may be some philanthropists in business you will
find many people who do not mind if they make no
huge profit; some people do not mind if merely they
break, even; but for somebody to be running a busi-
ness with somebody else's moneytowhomhe has to
account to tell that person: "I run my business in
such a way to help some people who may not be able







2065


themselves to sell their produce, but I will buy it
from them with the knowledge that I cannot sell it"
- that would make anybody, however favourably dis-
posed to the Marketing Corporation, ask: "What
assurance do I have that the past loose practices
which have resulted in losses would not be re-
peated?"

If the Hon. Minister had said that, unfortunately
that sort of thing used to happen, but the Government
will isee that it does not happen in future, one would
understand. He starts out by telling you that they buy
things and they lose out on them, because they cannot
sell them. Does the hon. Minister expect us to
swallow his explanation? Should not the position of the
Marketing Corporation be this: "You are wrong to
come and ask us to buy stuff that you know the people
are not going to eat; throw it away, and do not bring
it to us."

We have heard a lot of talk about the Bureau of
Standards. Incidentally, following the hon. senior
member for the City, I will point out that the daily
Press does nothing to let the public of Barbados know
what is going on in this House. Although it is an open
secret that they have had express orders to stop their
practice and not bring anything from the Legislature,
in some respects it may be theirunhappyexperience
in dealing with lawyers who do not know the law.
Again it is an open secret that the stopping of publi-
cation of news of what takes place inthis House was
due to the large measure of damages which they have
had to pay out in libel actions.
5.05 p.m.

One has got to sympathise to some extent with
the proprietors of the Advocate, because if a man
who has been called to the Bar and therefore en-
titled to be called a lawyeradvises,whenit is drawn
to his attention, that a particularly libellous word is
not libellous, then you have to sympathise with the
Advoc te for having that particular lawyer giving
them any advice. I do not refer to their lawyer-in-
chief, so to speak; he is above that. In view of the
fact that the public does not knowwhatwe know hap-
pened on Tuesday last, how insistent theywere and
rightly in establishing a Bureau of Standards, one
is somewhat surprised to hear the same Govern-
ment who are insisting on establishing a first-rate
Bureau of Standards whereby we are assured that
things produced in this Island and soldtothe general
public are of a high standard it is strange to hear
the Minister in charge of this Resolution sayingthat
they buy food which they know is not fit for ordinary
consumption. A -ery hungry, poor man might eat
anything; but there are not many even hungry, poor
men who are likely to eat hardokras. That sentence,
if nothing else, would have made me vote against this
Resolution.

This debate has lasted very long. I do not intend
to repeat the arguments that have been used, but I
would like to say that although it is bad, and perhaps
my words are going to be twisted, for the public of
Barbados, we as an Opposition ought to be glad that
the Government makes such howling, stupid mistakes.


They have got to their credit one long line of public
enterprises which have lost considerable amounts
of money. They have got to their credit scandals,
thefts, corruption and the Hilton Hotel over which
they dodged letting us know the amount spent. They
have to their credit C.B.C. Be as charitable as pos-
sible and say that these are teething pains and they
will grow out of them; but that is no reply to all the
accusations that can be brought as regards some of
these enterprises. In short, any business may have
the misfortune of having occasional losses; but you
do not run a business as if you are running a Sal-
vation Army hostel which you run not for profit.
I want to add that the Opposition will spare no oc-
casion in drawing it to the attention of the general
public because it is not going to be done through the
daily Press, and the newspapers of the weekly Press
are too small to bring any substantial recorder ac-
count of what took place in this House. We of the Op-
position are solidly united in voting against this,
not just as an empty protest at something that is
happening, but because we feel it is utterly wrong
to ask the public of Barbados to go on putting up
with the Marketing Corporation unless at the same
time they tell us they are going to clean its stables,
clean the filth and corruption.

For obvious reasons I am not going to mention
the name, but I know personally of something which
has been mentioned here by other speakers to be
absolutely true. Some stuff you cannot buy because
it is put aside for the D.L.P. people. I know of one
instance in which a customerwas actually asked if he
belonged to the D.L.P. because the attendantwas not
sure, and asked if he would pass on some goods to this
particular customer; but I am not going any further
into this. I only say that I have heard nothing here
said on this side of the House by way of accusation
of mal-administration and even of corruption that to
my knowledge is not true, except I do not know any-
thing about Mr. Sides and heard of it for the first
time. The mention of the price of fish by my colleague
from St. Joseph, and other things, I have personal
knowledge of, and I say that simply because the Hon.
Minister has got up and denied statements made from
time to time from this side of the House, but he can-
not truthfully and when I say "truthfully" I do not
mean he would be speaking an untruth deny, and the
denial be true, relating to some practices which the
Government should specifically promise this House
they would put an end to. How can they persuade
anybody that they are willing to listen to criticism
and act on it? How cantheygo to the general public -
I am not speaking about the elections now in day-
to-day work and expect them not to doubt every single
thing that the Government brings down here if when
criticisms are made to the Government they just rely
on their numbers The Government already has that
reputation. They do not mind what they bring; they
do not mind how they act; they say: "Let them talk
and when they have finished we will vote."After all,
a school boy would know that no Government in this
world can afford always to be using the big stick,
because they would soon get the reputation of being a
Police State, and not a Government by agreement.








2066


I am not so childish as to make any suggestion
to hon. members, more especially hon. members on
the Government benches as itwould fall on deaf ears,
but a little less subservience by non-Ministers to the
dictates of the Ministers or Prime Minister would
gain more respect for them. When they see that the
Government is wrong, they should so persuade the
Minister in charge of the Resolution or the Prime
Minister that they do not do the Government any good
by coming to the House and bulldozing their way
through because they have a majority. Every tyrant
sooner orlaterfalls. On some otheroccasionwe have
heard the name of Nkrumah mentioned. We need not
go so far afield. We neednotworryto do what I have
occasionally done, that is, make reference to Hitler
and Mussolini. Look around the West Indies and see
the hero of a few years ago toppling simply because
he became a dictator as the Prime Minister of this
Island is. He will topple. We of the Opposition can
afford to wait because public opinionwilllook at mat-
ters of this sort and the use of the majority vote as
other instances of substituting a dictatorship for
democratic Government.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I
was in this House for seven years and I have never
witnessed such an exhibition of time-wasting as today.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is there anyotherhon.
member who is desirous of speaking on this Resolu-
tion? I ask that because the Hon. Ministers about to
exercise his right of final reply. (A PAUSE) Let .he
Hon. Minister proceed.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I was saying, Mr.
Speaker, that for the seven years I have been in this
House I have never witnessed a greater exhibition
of time-wasting than I have witnessed today.
5.15 p.m.

We began the debate on a simple Resolution such
as this at 10 o'clock this morning, and ever since
then there has been a repetition of what took place'
some four or five months ago, when the same argu-
ments used then were the arguments used today.
After almost seven hours of debate on this matter, I
have not heard from the Opposition any constructive
criticism of the B.M.C. One would have hoped that
in a matter of this importance something on which
the economy of the island hinges, the question of
agriculture one would have hoped to find something
constructive coming from the Opposition, but what
have we witnessed here? An array of repetition;
"this person is a thief", "the next person is a con-
vict", "the next is a criminal" ratherthan getting
down to the hard facts of life andtelling us what they
see wrong with the B.M.C. and making suggestions
for improvement. I have always heard it said that
the Leader of the Opposition is famous for saying
that Barbadians have short memories. I have heard
this said of him, although I have never heard him
say it myself, but he is right. When they in the Op-
position can get over there and talk about throwing
away money down the drain and about he failures of
the B.M.C., they have only got to look back a few
years ago. Imagine a Socialist Party coming to the


Legislature, a Party which took up the taxpayers'
money and nationalised the transport service in this
country, and telling us that we must pass the B.M.C.
into the hands of private enterprises

It is true that we have short memories; other-
wise we would remember- my friend, the hon. senior
member for St. James would remember that only
a few years ago this D.L.P. Government had to come
here to this Legislature with a Resolution for some
$600,000 to pay off the bad debts of the Transport
Board which was nationalised by the B.L.P. Recently
we have wiped off some $2 million. (Mr. CRAIG: We
took over a lot of old buses.) The D. L.P. did not na-
tionalise the Transport Board. We have started the
system and I have admitted the faults of the B.M.C.
How many of us would have come in here today and
admitted that the B.M.C. had its faults? It is uni-
versally known that there were faults and there
were failures. I came inhere today to ask hon. mem-
bers to forget the failures, and let us join co-
operatively today in giving a hand to the B.M.C. I
warned hon. members that in giving a hand to the
B.M.C. they were giving hand to the farmers of this
country.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, anybody who votes against
this Resolution is considered a traitor to his country
(Laughter and Cheers) Anybody who votes against it
could only be a traitor to the farmers of this coun-
try, and when he is a traitor to the farmers of this
country, he is a traitor to the entire community, be-
cause agriculture is the mainstay of the economy
of our country, and we should do what we can to as-
sist agriculture. Some hon. members seem to have
been suffering from the misconception that I am
asking for money to put into the hands of the B. M. C.
and somebody said that we are putting $1.35 million
into the hands of Mr. Calvin Sides. They have made
accusations as to the character of the personwho is
acting as Manager of the Corporation for a few
months; they have said that he has criminal con-
victions; but I cannot say so. What Iknow..... (Asides)
Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to be heard in silence.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
on a point of order. Is it not a fact that the perma-
nent appointment of Mr. Sides has been held up by
the Minister because of his convictions?

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Chair is not in a
position to answer that.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Sides has never
applied for permanent appointment at the B.M.C.
There was never an understanding that Mr. Sides
would have been given a permanent appointment at
the B.M.C. We are trying to find a competent and
well-trained person of managerial status for the
B.M.C. We have applied to overseas organizations
to provide a high-powered man of managerial status
to put the B.M.C. on its feet. Meanwhile,we have had
to get someone who has had experience in agriculture,
who has had experience ingrowing andwho goes out
to the farmers and advises them as to what they
should grow, when they should grow itandwhat have







2067


you. Those are the functions of Mr. Sides. As far as
I am concerned, the financial aspect of the B.M.C.
is taken care of by a competent, qualified Barbadian,
a qualified accountant, who is the Controller/Secre-
tary of the Organisation, and all financial matters
are dealt with by the Controller/Secretary. If hon.
members of the Opposition, as they have said, are
of the opinion that the $1.35 million which we are
asking for, will be put into the hands of someone
who, they say, has criminal convictions, they are
sadly mistaken, because the person whom they are
saying has criminal convictions is absolutely nothing
to do with the finances of the B.M.C.

I will now reply to the question raised by the
hon. junior member for St. Peter.

At this stage, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER left the Chair and
Mr. SPEAKER took the Chair.

5.25 p.m.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. junior member for St.
Peter wanted to know how much money would be
given to the B.M,C. as operating capital from the
$1.35 million. The Ministry has recommended ani
equity of $100,000 for the B.M.C. as operating capi-
tal. The B.M.C. will not be having any $1.35 million
placed in the hands of any Calvin Sides, or any par-
ticular individual, as the members of the Opposition
have said, to throw it away, or to steal it, or anything
of the sort.

We have spent $57,000 in gaining the services of
a qualified firm of Maiagement Consultants. Saywhat
you like about this matter, they have made strong
recommendations. Some 12 of them haveworkedfor
a period of about sixmonths, day by day, on the spot,
at the B.M.C. in order to ascertain what was wrong
with the B.M.C. They have submitted a Report em-
bodying what was wrong with the B.M.C.; they have
made recommendations; the recommendations have
been discussed by the Board of the*B.M.C., and I
may say here that it is almost anew Board, because
of several changes on the Board. The Board of the
B.M.C. has made, through the Controller/Secretary
of the B.M.C., certain recommendations taken from
the Report of the Consultants. These recommenda-
tions have been put to the Ministry; the Ministry has
considered the recommendations, andhas madewhat
recommendations it felt were in the interest of the
people of this country and in the economy of the
country to the Cabinet, which recommendations have
been accepted. We have decided that phases (a), (b),
and (c) are the phases we want for the re-organisa-
tion of the B.M.C. We have dealt with the question
of policy, with the question of management and or-
ganisation, and we are now completing things by
putting into effect the financial recommendations
made by the Consultants.

Now, I have heard a lot of nonsense here this
afternoon, Mr. Speaker, about having an enquiry into
the B.M.C. It seems as though we live in a country;
we read newspapers; we are suppbsedtobe in public
life; we are supposed to be lookingafterthe interest


and the welfare of the people of this country, and yet
'we do not know what is going on. How could any
reasonable and rational thinking person come into
this House today to tell me that I must have an en-
quiry into the B.M.C., when he knows that the Con-
sultants have carried out an enquiry? I warned hon.
members of this some six months ago. I have had a
criminal enquiry carried out into the B.M.C.; a case
was brought, and itwas dismissed inthe Court. There
was an enquiry carried out by the Criminal Inves-
tigation Department of this country a few months ago
into the running of the B.M.C. What the Director of
Public Prosecutions saw that he should have put to
the Law Courts for a decision was sent there. I then
had an administrative enquiry carried out by the firm
of Canadian Consultants here, and we are now dealing
with the recommendations. How could any rational
thinking person come here and say that we should
have another enquiry? What we shouldd do is to.carry
out the recommendations of the Consultants. (Mr.
SMITH: All you want is the money.)


Sir, some people
They talk about white
bigger white elephant
the Barbados Labour
Cross Roads? Let us
our shortcomings.


talk about short memories.
elephants. Could you want a
than the one established by
Party at the corner of Six
face facts. We have all had


Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On a point of order,
Mr. Speaker. Will the hon. member say how much
money was thrown away by the White elephant at
Six Cross Roads?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is not avalid point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, if it
were a point of order, Iwouldanswerthe hon. mem-
ber.

Mr. SPEAKER: It is not a valid point of order;
therefore proceed.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Theytalkaboutthrow-
ing away money. What about the money thrown away
by the Housing Authority under'the B.L.P. Govern-
ment? Even the Chairman had a loan to buy a motor
car. No Chairman of the Housing Authority has ever
had a loan from this Government to buy a motor
car.

Mr. HINDS: On a point of order, Sir. Would the
Minister tell us if the B.M.C. loaned out money to
buy motor cars?

Mr. SPEAKER: Point made, but invalid.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker,were it a
valid-point of order, I would have answered the hon.
junior member for St. Peter. I am prepared to an-
swer the points raised by all hon. members, as long
as they are valid points. You can think of the house
in which Peter Jones lived, and several scandals
concerning the B.L.P. Do not talk about the failures
of the B.M.C., and corruption in the B.M.C., when
hon. members know that they have had the reins of







2068


,this country perhaps it might not have been their.
fault that things went wrong. Some of the members
on the other side might not have known of these
things, but things went wrong.

Mr. Speaker, I am not saying that the B.M.C. is
perfect, but I want you, Mr. Speaker, andhon. mem-
bers on the other side of the House, to help me to
bring it as close to perfection as possible.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On a point of order,
Mr. Speaker. Is not what the Minister saying is that
only $100,000 of this amount is needed to operate the
B.M.C., and the other $1.35 million is to pay off old
debts? What is he talking about help?

Mr. SPEAKER: Not a valid point.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, if the hon.
senior member for St. Thomas would remain in his
seat more often if he were in his seat today, he
would have heard me saythatthe greaterpart of this
money is to pay off old debts. I have said so. I am
now answering a point raised by the hon. junior
member for St. Peter.

Mr. HINDS: Is the Minister still maintaining what
he said earlier'today? Is he saying that the B.M.C.
is in $1.35 million debt today?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is not avalid point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, I didn't
say that the B.M.C. is in.....

Mr. SPEAKER: I have not ruled that to be a valid
point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I never said that the
B.M.C. was in $1.35 million in debt. I am saying that
the $1.35 million we are asking for is already taken
up in loans by the B.M.C. Some of it is to carry out
further development at the B.M.C. (ASIDES) For
example, consideration is being given to the estab-
lishment of a Pork Processing Plant.

Mr. HINDS: On a point of elucidation. Is the
$100,000 to be spent in this Pork Processing Plant?

Mr. SPEAKER: Apropos of point of elucidation,
that is to explain something raised by the hon. mem-
ber himself in the course of his speech.
5.35 p.m.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, I am say-
ing that consideration is beinggivento the establish-
ment of a Pork Processing Plant.

Mr. SPEAKER: May I remind hon. members of
Standing Order No. 29 (6)?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: If hon. members would
like to hear what I have to say, they would listen. I
said, Mr. Speaker, that consideration is being given
to the establishment of a Pork Processing Plant at
the Barbados Marketing Corporation.


Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I
wonder if the Minister is aware of the fact that the
Prime Minister said in Canadainl964 that there was
a Pork Processing Plant already in operation.

Mr. SPEAKER: That is not a point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: What I know, Mr.
Speaker, is that there is machinery and equipment
for the Pork Processing Plant at the B.M.C. already;
but what has happened is that because of ill advice
it was put up in the wrong place and had to be re-
moved. It has not yet been put back up. However, if
and when the Prime Minister made that statement,
there was a Pork Processing Plantestablished atthe
B.M.C.

Now hon. members have made all sorts of accu-
sations about the B.M.C. and said that we should not
finance it. I wonder if they are aware that the Ja-
maica Marketing Corporation had a deficit of i 4
million last year in order to give an incentive to the
farmers of Jamaica, and nobody got upinthe Legis-
lature and raised a howl about it.

Mr. HINDS: On a point of order, Iwonder if Hag-
gatts factory lost the amount that the hon. member
mentioned about Jamaica.

Mr. SPEAKER: Yet another invalid point of
order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: The Jamaica Corpora-
tion lost 4 million.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On a point of order,
is the Minister aware that the Jamaica Marketing
Corporation has to buy produce from peasants who
are resettled on certain lands as a deliberate part
of a land resettlement scheme, and therefore the loss
to the Janaica Marketing Corporation is in the na-
ture of a subsidy of land re-settlement schemes as
well as an operating loss, and therefore the two situa-
tions are not comparable?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is no valid point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, were that
a valid point of order, Iwould replyto the hon. mem-
ber; but all I am saying is that the Jamaica Market-
ing Corporation lost f4 million lastyearandnot one
member of the Legislature voted against the pro-
vision of that amount.

Mr. CRAIG: On a point of order, am I to under-
stand then, Sir, that because the Opposition in the
Jamaican Legislature did not vote against it,thatwe
are to sit here and vote for this?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is no point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: What I am suggesting
is that the Jamaica Legislature is interested in the
farmer of Jamaica, and they know that the Jamaica
Marketing Corporation has got to be an incentive to
the farmer there, and some of the members in the








2069


Opposition in Barbados cannot yet appreciate the im-
portance of agricultural diversification.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, on a point
of order, does the Minister appreciate that it is the
duty of the Opposition to pass verdict on past man-
agement, and that this is the verdict we are seeking
to pass here today?

Mr. SPEAKER: No point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, Ihaveto
answer one or two more points raisedby hon. mem-
bers on the other side, and one is that no bank has
ever refused to lend the B.M.C. money ifit was bor-
rowed according to the legal principles of how the
B.M.C. should borrow money.

Mr. HINDS: On point of order, are we to under-
stand then that they attempted to borrow on the il-
legal principle?

Mr. SPEAKER: Not yet a valid point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I am not aware of that.
When I made that statement, this is whatI meant: in
order for the B.M.C. or any statutory body to bor-
row money, it must be guaranteed by the Government
by a Resolution passed in the Legislature. One hon.
member on the other side said that the B.M.C. was
refused a loan from a commercial bank. This is ab-
solutely incorrect.

Mr. CRAIG: On a point of elucidation, I never
said from a bank. I said from two commercial banks,
not one.

Mr. SPEAKER: That is neither a pointoforder,
nor a point of elucidation, nor any other known point
of interruption known to Parliament.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Hon. members can
try, but they cannot stop me from making the points
I want to make, nor can they put me off the track. I
am saying that the B.M.C. has not been denied the
right to borrow money from a commercial bank or
has been refused a loan from any commercial bank
at any time that the Government gives authority to
make a loan.

Mr. Speaker, it has been said that one cannot
get a job at the B.M.C. unless you show the D.L.P.
passport. I am glad to hear that, because if you are
in power and you cannot help your supporters, when
will you be able to help them? I am glad to see that
the Barbados Marketing Corporation can give jobs,
if they have them, to people with D.L.P. passports.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On point of order, the
Minister has misled the House when he saidthat the
B.M.C. can only borrow money following a Resolution
of the House of Assembly, because Section 15 sub-
section 3 says it can borrow money over the signature
of the Cabinet and not the House of Assembly at all.
Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: It is a Government
-guarantee. It has also been said, Mr. Speaker, that


,supermarkets are not allowed to buy vegetables from
the B.M.C. This is adeliberatelie. The B.M.C. sells
vegetables, if they have them, to supermarkets or
anybody who wants them; so when one can come in
here and deliberately say that......

Mr. SPEAKER: I will counsel the hon. member,
when he speaks of a deliberate lie, I naturally assume
that he is not referring to something said by any
hon. member.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I said that anybody
who can make a statement sayingthat the B.M.C. re-
fuses to sell vegetables to the supermarkets is a
stranger to the truth. Now Iwilldealwith the matter
on agriculture raised by the hon. junior member for
St. Peter. His entire addresswhich lastedforalmost
two hours centred around the closing down of the
Scotland Factory, and I want to set the record
straight. A sugar factory can only make sugar if it
can operate at least sixteen hours a day, and it can
only operate sixteen or twenty hours a day if it gets
the amount of sugar cane to grind. During the last
crop season, Haggatts Factory could only work for
eight or ten hours a day. Thiswas all rightwhen the
factory 'was making fancy molasses;: but if the hon.
member knows anything about the industry, he will
know that fancy molasses factories axe given a cer-
tain quota, and since there is not a big market now
in Canada for our fancy molasses, Barbados' quota
has got......
5.45 p.m.

Mr. HINDS: On a point of -order. Is the hon.
member suggesting that Haggatts Iictory has been
re-sited since the Government started to operate it?

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that that is not a
point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: It cannot put me off
either. They can try to put me off my:track, but I
will not move. The Scotland Factory had a small
quota of fancy molasses to make. In the early part
of the last crop seasonwhen itwasmaking that quota
of syrup, the factory was only operating freight or
ten hours a day. It was all right to let syrup remain
until the next day to be boiled, but no factory I do
not care where it is, whether in Barbados or in
Timbuctoo could make sugar, operating at the rate
of six or eight hours a day. Because of the fact that
the same peasant farmers of St. Andrew whom I
have the honour and distinction to represent and
nothing on that other side of the House can stop me
from representing St. Andrew if they want to take
up Haggatts issue as an issue, they have no case be-
cause it cannot remove me. Mr. Speaker, I will tell
you this......

Mr. HINDS: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker,
are we to understand that a factory cannot make
sugar unless it operates for more thaneight hours a
day?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I am sayingthatit can-
not do it economically. There will have to be a lot of
the spoilage of the stale liquor which remains. (Mr.








2070


,HINDS: They let that liquor run through the gully.).
You are playing up my alley now. When that liquor
runs through the gully, the payments which the far-
mers in St. Andrew or wherever they are, who sent
sugar cane to the sugar factory get, depends on the
returns of the factory. It depends on the recovery
rate of the factory; and if the factory has to throw
away liquor every day, that is included in the re-
covery rate or in the efficiency of the factory. What
would have happened? Instead of being in a position
to have 8.6 or 8.9 recovery rate, that is to say, 8.9
tons of canes to a ton of sugar, Haggatts would have
found itself, as in the year before, with a recovery
rate of 10.3. Everybody else had 8.9, 8.6 or 8.7
whereas Haggatts had a recovery rate of 10.3 and was
not in a position to pay the farmers the price for the
sugar cane which the other factories paid. Whatwas
the result? The farmers of St. Andrew received some
$2 a ton less for their canes than what was paid in
any other part of the Island. The farmers of St. An-
drew, therefore, decided, come hell or high water....

Mr. HINDS: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker,
would it have taken $1.35 million to subsidisefthese
farmers at that particular time so that they would be
satisfied and they would supply the factory in the
coming year?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is not a point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: What I am saying is that
the farmers of St. Andrew have shown that they did
not want the factory and they refused to send their
canes to the factory because it could not pay the
price which they were getting at otherfactories. (Mr.
CRAIG: You go in St. Andrew and tellthem so.) No-
body can threaten me to go in St. Andrew and say so;
that is what I have already said; and if anybody is de-
pending on this string to win the election, he is wast-
ing his time. Let them come with anotherissue. The
farmers refused to send their canes there, andwhat
did we do? We have assisted the farmers; not one
blade of cane was left unreaped in St. Andrew because
of the closing down of the factory. Every cane far-
mer got more money for his canes than he got when
the Haggatts Factory was going on. Therefore, what
nonsense am I hearing?

Mr. Speaker, I think I have answered most of the
important points, and whether theyvote for this Reso-
lution or not, it will be passed andthe people of this
country will have seen who are their friends from
who are not their friends. The farmers of this coun-
try will see that the only thingwhich would give them
an incentive to diversify their agriculture, the mem-
bers of the Opposition have opposed and they have
refused to support in this Legislature. Theywillhear
of it and they will read of it, and they will make their
decision in due time.
The question that this Resolution do now pass was put
and resolved in the affirmative, the House dividing as follows:-

AYES: Mr. YEARWOOD, Hon'bles J. C. TUDOR,
C. E. TALMA, G. G. FERGUSSON, A. DaC. EDWARDS
N. W. BOXILL, Messrs. LOWE, SERGEANT,
CORBIN, WEEKS and HOPPIN 11.


NOES: Messrs LYNCH, HINDS, CRAIG,
J. M. G. M. ADAMS, SMITH and Sir GRANTLEY
ADAMS 6.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Order No. 1 be taken as the next Order of the
Day.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: If the hon. member
Would give way, when he moved the suspension of
certain Standing Orders, I did not rememberexactly
what Standing Order 45 was. I have looked it up and
perhaps I should, at the time, have drawn it to the
hon. member's attention, that if you suspend Standing
Order 45 you are suspending all the procedure in
Committee. How does the hon. member propose to
deal with a matter when he goes into Committee?

Mr. SPEAKER: I understand that it is proposed
to deal with Committee of Supply now.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Do I understand that
the Hon. Leader of the House is dealingwith matters
in Committee of Supply? (A MEMBER: Yes.) If the
procedure for dealing with matters in Committee is
suspended, how do you propose to deal with them?
Read them out Clause by Clause?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, as I understand
it, Standing Order 45 lays down the procedure in
Committee on Bills. It does not seem to me that it
says anything at all about Committee of Supply. I
have not moved the suspension of Standing Order 60.

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Orderof the Day stands
in the name of the Hon. Leader of the House:- To
move the House into Committee of Supply to consider
the grant of sums of money for the service of the
Island.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to move that Your Hon-
our do now leave the Chair and the House go into
Committee of Supply and that it be an instruction of
the House while in Committee of Supply to deal with
a Resolution for $100,000 of which notice has been
given earlier in today's Sitting and of which copies
have been circulated.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.
Mr SPEAKER left the Chair and the House went into Com-
mittee. of Supply, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

5.55 p.m.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 1968-69 No. 22
A Resolution for $22,739 was called.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, as the Ad-
dendum sets out:








2071


The amount of $22,739 is required to supplement
Annexed Estimates Post Office consequent upon
the need to re-organise the Postmen's Divisionof the
Post Office Department. It is proposed to create
thirteen posts of Senior Postmen, three additional
posts of Inspector and to place the post of Inspector
on the Travelling Schedule. Revision of Postmen's
routes, the implementation of aforty-fourhourweek,
revision of rates for extraduties performed and pay-
ment of overtime to Senior Postmen and Postmen
when required to work on Bank Holidays are also pro-
posed.

The items to be supplemented are as follows:-

Item 14 Auxiliary Postmen $16,940

Required to meet emoluments for 20 temporary Post-
men to end of financial year to be paid in the salary
scale L-3 ($1,452 $2,280) as a consequence of the
proposed revision of the Postmen's routes.

Item 18 Overtime $606

Required to meet increased Extra Duty Allowance
paid to clerical officers to be increased from $30 to
$40 a month. Provision is also made for payment of
overtime to Senior Postmen and other Postmenwhen
required to work on Bank Holidays.

Item 24 Casual Labour $465

Required to meet increased rates to Postmen (Van
Drivers) as an extra Duty Allowance in connection
with the receipt and despatch of mail outside of nor-
mal working hours. The rate has been increased from
$1.00 to $1.50 per trip.

Item 30 Travelling $2,700

Required to meet cost of Travelling Allowance for
five Inspectors for the remainder of the financial
year.

Item 41 Furniture and Equipment $2,028

Required for the supply of furniture and equipment as
follows:

Postmen's cubicles $600
Chairs $388
Sorting racks $180
Desks $700
Re-lettering of Post boxes $160

Hon. members, Mr. Chairman, will remember
that not so long ago itwas becoming fashionable, as it
had taken place in Britain at some time, then during
the early part of this month it took place in Canada,
where the postmen went on strike. The postmen here
were deciding to go on strike. I can sympathise with
the postmen here, because this matter was hanging
fire a bit too long.

I know that hon. members on the other side would
want to accuse members on this side of holding up the


postmen from getting what should normally be theirs.
Nothing could be further from the truth. What took
place, Mr. Chairman, was that negotiations started
in 1965 three years ago but you know, Sir, how
these negotiations go. Sometimes they take a long
time; sometimes a point comes up and, especially,
where you are dealing withasituationsuch asthe
one with the postmen, youwill always get anomalies.
As a result of this this legislation before the House
today is no hurried legislation because of the threat
of a strike.

As I said before, I am in sympathy with the
postmen for bearingwith us so long, andwhen we look
back and see that the requests which they have been
making of us are not, in my opinion, unreasonable
for the simple reason that on Saturdays nearly every-
body with the exception of me, of course, gets a
Saturday off to go and play cricket, orto watch cric-
ket do extra chores, but postmen are called upon to
work. Up to Saturday last I saw a postman- Iwas not
surprised, because I know that they have toworklate
- long after five o'clock still delivering mails. Well,
this is not really fair. These are some of the things
that we have inherited, and that is whyl am now ask-
ing for the support of hon. members in this Chamber.
I know that hon. members will talk, and it is their duty
to talk. I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I am as
grieved as I ever have been in observing any aspect
of public life in Barbados as I am by something which
has been going on for nearly ayearnow in respect of
the relationship between the Minister of Communica-
tions and Works and a postman in St. Thomas.

Now, the Minister is talking about the conditions
of service of postmen. He is saying how hard it is
for them to work until late inthe afternoon, that they
do not get Saturdays off, and he has been watching
them to observe all this. But, Mr. Chairman, the
Minister's behaviour towards a servant of the Gov-
ernment under the control of his Ministry is such that,
like the Prime Minister, I must say that this Minister
deserves the most outright condemnation possible by
not only members of this House, but by decent people.

Now, Mr. Chairman, a Minister is in a particular
situation vis-a-vis a Civil Servant. When he threa-
tens, the Civil Servant has to watch how he walks.
There is no doubt that no matter what you can say
about the Public Service Commission being there to
protect a man, there is no doubtthat a Civil Servant,
with the stoutest heart and the greatest resolution,
must be worried when a Minister takes a personal
hand in interfering with him.
6.05 p.m.

Now the Minister spoke about the conditions of
service of postmen and how they have to work on
Saturday afternoons. One Saturday afternoon last
August the Minister, accompanied by his Permanent
Secretary, by a policeman called Clarke and by the
Acting Postmaster General went to St. Thomas' Post








2072


Office to see a postman called Mr. Wilton Wiles who
lives at Kew Land, Redmans Village, St. Thomas, and
who has been a supporter of the Barbados Labour
Party for many years, to my knowledge. There is no
secret about it. He went up there, asking if certain
Beacon .newspapers belonged to him, andthe postman
handed them to him: upon which the Minister used
some phrase about using the Government or some-
thing like that. The matter boiled up and boiled over.
It went to the Solicitor General, the Director of Pub-
lic Prosecutions, the Attorney General and the Prime
Minister who considered it, and allthese personages
discovered that no offence of any sort, not even a Civil
Service offence or a disciplinary offence was involved
in what went on. Indeed, Mr. Chairman, did the Min-
ister know that a postman who used to support the
Democratic Labour Party in St. Thomas also used to
help with the Beacons?

Mr. Chairman, I am informed that the Prime
Minister made his views known to the Minister at the
time, and many other people made theirviews known
to the Minister. You cannot say that the postman was
exonerated, because to be exonerated there has to be
a charge. The only charge was the one he threatened
to make against the police about detaining his Beacon
newspapers, and as soon as he warned the police that
he would sue them for detaining his newspapers, the
newspapers were returned. There was a very nasty
evil episode, one that all decent Barbadians ought to
be ashamed of, because it was aclearexample of the
mighty trying to interfere with the weak. You would
think, Mr. Chairman, that that would be the end of
the matter. Not so. This postman, Mr. MiltonWiles,
after 42 years of service in the Government is now
achieving the age of 60 years and as of tomorrow, I
believe, will be retiring from the Public Service
having reached the compulsory retirement age, be-
cause he could have retired before. In his last two
months of office, is it possible forus in here to ima-
gine that he gets an instruction to attend at the Gen-
eral Post Office in Bridgetown because the Minister
of Communications and Works had said that he did not
deliver letters to two people at Bennetts Tenantry?
Letters were also put in his hand to deliver to peo-
ple in Bennetts Tenantry to attend to make charges
against him the next day at the G.P.O. The people
from Bennetts Tenantry refused to make any com-
plaint. That was not enough for the Minister. He then
instructed the Postmaster General to send inspectors
to the people in Bennetts Tenantry, and another letter
was sent out and the postman was asked to explain
how is it that certainletterswhichwere posted at the
G.P.O. in Bridgetown bearing a certain date I think
the date was Friday 29th were not delivered until
the 1st of the next month or something like that, and
an investigation was made and it was discovered that
they were not posted at the G.P.O. at all. In fact, it
was remarkable that the postman managed to deliver
them because he delivered them in Bennetts Tenantry,
the very end of a run, on the same day they bore the
postmark. He put himself out to deliver the sum-
monses to people in Bennetts to come and charge
him at the G.P.O. next day. Its my information that
they told him they had no intention of doing anything
of the sort and they made no complaint. (Mr. CRAIG:


Is this connected with the Beacons?) The hon. senior
member for St. James asks if this is connected with
the Beacon. This is not connected with any Beacons;
this is manufacturing a case to deprive a man of the
fruits of 42 years of service in the Government of
this Island; this is inventing a case to deprive a man
of his pension.

Now, Mr. Chairman, nobody has made a com-
plaint to the General Post Office to the effect that Mr.
Wiles did not deliver letters to him, and there is
something of which I now can speak with personal
knowledge because apparently these persons were
visited again by the Minister I cannot speak of that
with personal knowledge; I only heard them say so; -
and told that they must go to the St. Thomas' Post
Office and that the Postmaster General would come
up there to them. And so one day at St. Thomas'
Post Office Mr. Hewitt, Acting Postmaster General,
Mr. Weekes who is an official of the Post Office and
Mr. King, the Postmaster of St. Thomas sat down
to carry on an enquiry while the Post Office was
closed to the public. One lady came from Bennetts
Tenantry and I heard the Postmaster General ask her
if she had made a complaint and she said "no", that
Mr. Boxill asked her a lot of questions and if she had
known it would have come to this,she would not have
answered them. I heard that with my own ears be-
cause I heard Wiles cross-examine her and ask her
if she had a complaint and she said"no". What con-
fidence can anybody have......

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Can we have a little order,
please? When one member is speaking, all others
shall be silent.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, as it
was, two names were originally mentioned. Onelady
resolutely refused to come at all; sheneversaid she
had any complaint. The other lady, old andbewildered,
came to say she had no complaint. Now, Mr. Chair-
man, what confidence can any decent person have in
a Minister who is prepared to ignore not only the
rules of decency, but the ordinary every-day rules
about the attitude Ministers must take towards Civil
Servants? What confidence can any one of us have in
any scheme which he presents to this House?

Mr. Chairman, there is a question on the Order
Paper of this House. If the Prime Minister can attack
the Minister at the D.L.P. Conference, then he must
be man enough to come inhere and say he did wrong.
If he can tell him he did wrong to his face in Cabinet
and at Conference, he can come in here and say so.
The Minister should resign. Mr. Wiles is, I believe,
on pre-retirement leave, and I think I am correct
in saying that tomorrow is his last day and, maybe,
his leave will take him to the middle of next month;
but Mr. Chairman, nobody involved in it has come
well out of it. The Postmaster General should not
have entertained a hearsay complaint, especially
from the junior member for St. Thomas. No Civil
Servant should accept any complaint by a Minister
saying that so-and-so happened in such-and-such a
place without first verifying it. The Postmaster Gene -
ral had no business to summon Mr.Wiles to answer one








2073


question, and I am going to say this now: I believe
the Postmaster General was afraid and very rightly
too, because if this could be done to a postman, it
could be done equally to the Postmaster General;
but a stand has to be taken somewhere. There are
Civil Servants regulations about what should be done
before an officer can be disciplined. Theywere not in
fact observed in this case. I very much hope that the
Leader of the House whom I observe is paying close
attention to what is going on, although he is not in his
seat, will make it clear to Civil Servants that com-
plaints from anybody indirectly that a postman did
not give letters to X should not be pursued unless X
has made the complaint and substantiated it in writ-
ing, if possible. I cannot conceive how inthis day and
age a Civil Servant can investigate a complaint against
another Civil Servant when he does not know if the
complaint has any foundation, because he has not
spoken to the alleged complainant.

Mr. Chairman, I said I heard when the lady said
she had no complaint and that if she had known it
would have gone so far, she would not have spoken
to the Minister. It was clear from the trend of her
evidence that the entire incident arose not from her
going to the Minister, but from the Minister coming
to her house and asking how she used to get her
letters and whether they were always delivered. The
Minister went to this person's house to seek to make
trouble for the postman, not sitting in his office get-
ting a complaint from a member of the public in
which case he could call in the Postmaster General
or put her on to a Civil Servant.

Now, Mr. Chairman, when this matter was hot,
it was on my mind andI cannot speak without emotion
on it. The same postman, Mr. Chairman, was the
subject of remarks made by the hon. junior member
for St. Thomas on political platforms remarks
which were in fact I also know this taken down by
the police and which I subsequently looked at to see
if they amounted to a breach of the Malicious and
Corrupt Practices Act, 1885, because do not let us
forget, Mr. Chairman, that even out of election time
if you threaten somebody to influence a vote, the
Malicious and Corrupt Practices Act says that you
can still be disqualified out of election time.
6.15 p.m.

Do not let us forget, even out of election time,
that if you threaten somebodyto influence a vote, the
Malicious and Corrupt Practices Act still says that
you can be disqualified. It is not only at election time
that you can lose your seat. (Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS:
Do not warn them.) Mr. Chairman, I have been told
not to warn them. We have these three incidents, the
cursing on political platforms, the threatening on
political platforms.... and what will happen to these
postmen? We have the incident with the Beacon and
we have the incident with Bennetts Tenantry and the
delivery of letters. Is this political Party proud to
have somebody like that in their ranks? Can the Hon.
Leader of the House stand up there and be proud of
this? The hon. senior member for St. Andrew has
said that you have to help your friends, and that can
be a reprehensible doctrine. It is not contrary to de-


cency; it may be contrary to what is best in public
life; but it is not helping on your friends. I will tell
you something else, Mr. Chairman, about this same
postman which I had forgotten. He was transferred
after the election from the most difficult route in St.
Thomas, a route taking in Arch Hall, Bennetts, Red-
mans Village and Rock Hall, to one of the easiest
routes in Welchman Hall. He was transferred, I be-
lieve, as was thought, as a confession to the Hon.
Minister. I think they thought that the Minister was
angry with Mr. Wiles, and so they transferred Mr.
Wiles that the Minister would not be so angry; but
when the Minister discovered that whereas it used
to take Mr. Wiles up to half-past five to deliver his
letters to Arch Hall, Bennetts and Rock Hall, he was

now getting through with his work by half-past three
and he could get home little earlier in the afternoon
- when that was discovered, the postmanwho was put
on the old route went to the Minister and told him that.
Mr. Wiles was put back on his old route, the most
difficult one in St. Thomas, and the Minister came
in the House and said that a part of the reason why I
wanted Mr. Wiles on the other route was because I
was not strong in Welchman Hall and I wanted Mr.
Wiles to canvass forme. Well, Mr. Chairman, in a
month or two, Mr. Wiles will be free to canvass for
all of us all over St. Thomas. As far as I know, he has
never canvassed for anybody in away that contravenes
the terms of his employment in the Public Service of
this Island. I can tell the Ministerthat I am sure that
he is not going to promise to refrain from canvass-
ing when he is onthe retiredlist and is as free as the
air to do what he likes.
Mr. Chairman, in view of all this, how can we vote,
how can I personally vote for this? We have no quar-
rel with the Scheme on this side. The hon. member on
my right who deals with these matters on behalf of
the Opposition, I am sure, will deal with the Scheme
on its merits, if there is anything to deal with. I see
that there is another Resolution down here for the
whole re-organization of the structure of the Post
Office, and this Resolution no doubt, and all the finan-
cial provisions in it, will be partly required in con-
nection with the structure. Mr. Chairman, it is not
only the financial provisions which cause the postmen
to be dissatisfied; that is not the only aspect of the
terms of service that makes the Civil Servants fed
up with the Ministry with which they are working.
The Minister's attitude towards the said St. Thomas
postman, Mr. Wiles, if he does not know it, let me
tell him now that it is resented by every postman to
whom I have ever spoken in the ranks of the entire
postal service of her Majesty in this Island. I would
not like to tell the Minister how many protestations
of support the same Mr. Wiles has got from house-
holds which have not been in the past supporters of
the Barbados Labour Party. Had a petition been
needed at any stage, the Ministerwould perhaps have
been astonished at the names which he would have
seen signed to it on behalf of this same postman,
Mr. Wiles. Therefore, I can say with some safety
that, in the long run, the only person who has been
done hurt by it is the Minister himself; he has been
done great political harm. Mr. Wiles has faced the
Minister on a number of occasions, and it is Mr.
Wiles who has come out triumphantly and who has









2074


'won, and it is the Minister who has been put in his
place, andwho knows,God willing, Mr. Wiles, the Min-
ister and I, will all live to see the Minister put in his
place even more firmly in 1971 or before then. I
look forward to that. It is said that you should not get
too mighty in these matters; it may be that the Minis-
ter will have the last laugh, but if it should so happen
that the Minister should lose his seat, I just pray to be
alive to see Mr. Wiles look the Minister in his eye on
that day. I just pray to be there at whatever stage it
be.
Mr. Chairman, the Minister produces this
scheme and he talks about the conditions of service.
The Government should be ashamed to allow these
things to go on andthen, inthe very month in which it
is happening, they can come with this scheme to meet
the lot of postmen. Charity begins at home; let them
improve their lot by removing the Minister responsi-
ble. That is how theywill improve theirlot. Let them
put somebody who realises thateverybody has a right
to his vote and to his voice. We are all here in Bar-
bados entitled to go and cast our X's however we
wish and, indeed, to speak howeverwewish; and it is
shameful, disgraceful, disgusting, abominable and
foul for anybody to try to use his power to take away
a man's livelihood, his pension, and whatever he has
earned after 42 years of service. Mr. Chairman, that
is the only complaint that that postman, Mr. Wiles
has ever had for 42 years, and the complaints, of
any more, were not even complaints which merited
any question of investigation. The Public Service
Commission has never had to have Mr. Wiles' name
across its books.
6.25 p.m.

Mr. Chairman, I cannot say any more on the
question of the Post Office. I daresay the Minister
will have something to say. The Minister is going to
get up and, in the best tradition of the Dickensian
lawyers who had no case, approach this matterfrom
the point of view of abusing the Attorney for the other
side. I will be lucky, Mr. Chairman, if I get away
tonight without my father, my mother, my wife, and
my grandmother being abused by the Minister. It
would not be the first time he has done it. But we can
all judge whether that abuse will be a substitute for
decency. We are all here to judge that.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am sorry the Hon.
Leader of the House is not inhis place, because all I
wish to say at this stage, at any rate, on what the hon.
member who has just spoken has said is that I would
like to know whether Ministers have been told that
they have no right to interfere with the actual work-
ing of the Civil Service. A Minister is responsible
for the policy of the Government, and not for running
the CivilService, orconductinthe CivilService. That
is a matter for the Public Service Commission. I am
amazed to hear I am not amazed to hear the act of
the junior member for St. Thomas; I would expect
that of him; he is maliciously vindictive against a
man who did not vote for him.

I am not accusing any individual Minister orback
bencher now if I knew it I would say it but it is
on a par with what is commonly said by the number


of people who come to me daily and say:' Chief, I can-
not get a job at the Housing Board. When people apply
for a job they are asked, "Are you a member of the
Democratic Labour Party?" Now, that came from a
man whom I myself employ. He could not get a job
there; he had not voted with them, andhe was honest
enough to say so. But when you get a Minister inter-
fering with the actual working I am not talking now
I repeat, of the vindictiveness of the Minister's action,
even if he were responsible for the discipline of that
particular postman, it would still be vindictive and
nasty and characteristic. The hon. member is not
listening because he does not want to listen, but he
knows that everything we are saying on this side of
the House is true.

How can anybody have any respect for any man
on his side of the fence, politically or not, or for any
man who takes a man with a record of 42 years' ser-
vice and tries to take bread out of his mouth by trying
to make out a case against him to prevent him from
getting a pension? That does not concern me as re-
gards his particular benefactor. That does notworry
me at all; that is what I expect of him; he is going
to do worse until God removes him from the earth.
What does concern me is whether, as an actual fact,
the Prime Minister has made it clear to Ministers
that they cannot interfere with the actual working of
the Civil Service.

We have hoped and said that we are following
English practice.His Honour the Speaker has laid it
down that where our Standing Orders are silent, we
follow the English Parliamentary Procedure. This is
why I frequently refer to May's Parliamentary Prac-
tice, because we follow that. We do not follow, un-
fortunately, all the conventions of Cabinet
Government and Ministerial responsibility, because
in England it is so strong that a Minister has to re-
sign if a scandal arises in his Department, although
he knows nothing whatsoever about it.

You know the case of Mr. Greenwoodwho was not
unknown to many of us in the West Indies. He came
out here, including Barbados, more than once when
the Federation was in existence. He was a remark-
ably reasonable man in himself, but somebody com-
plained, whose land had been requisitioned during the
war, that although he tried to buy it back from the
Government; he was passed over, and it was sold to
somebody else. A scandal arose; questions were
asked in the House of Commons; the Press took up
what a scandalous thing it was that this man's land,
having been requisitioned, one would have expected
that he would have the first choice of buying it, and
the Minister had to resign. He knew nothing whatso-
ever of what had been going on in the Department,
but that was the convention.

All the more should we, in this case, start to
follow, at any rate, the convention which means
nothing more than decency. He ought to resignif that
had happened without his knowing it, or without his
taking part in it, if it could be proved that somebody
in that Department was trying to persecute a post-
man. It is all the greater, if the Hon. Minister has








2075


any sense of decency whatever and I mean that as ,
strongly as I can possibly put it the slightest sense
of decency of one man towards his fellowmen, it would
make him resign. He is not fit to be a Minister who
could do a thing like that.

As the hon. senior member for St. Thomas has
said, it is a reflection on the Ministry as a whole.
The Cabinet ought to see that he resigns, because it
brings disgrace on the whole Govarnment Party. That
is all I wish to say at this stage, but I am sorry the
Hon. Leader of the House is not here. I would like
him to give some sort of assurance that the matter
of the relationship of Ministers to the Civil Service
be made clear; otherwise we will have repetitions of
scandals like this.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, I am not
surprised for one moment at what I heard from the
senior member for St. Thomas. I start off by saying
it is a known fact that people like Milton Wiles and
the senior member for St. Thomas have something
in common, and these people who have this sort of
thing in common would kill their very mother, if she
crosses their path. A lot of accusations, vitupera-
tions, and what have you, have been made against me
today. I do not have to clarify anything, but I would
remind the junior member for St. Joseph, when he
talks about interference with Civil Servants, that he
got up in the Lower Green in my presence and said
that Dr. Humby, a man who was doing something for
this country, would have to leave this country, or
he would leave and he had no place to go. Do not let
us forget Napoleon Layne, known as "Commissar".
Do not let us forget Dorian Farrell.

Ihave never, Mr. Chairman, in my sevenyears in
this Chamber, heard the false accusations that were
made against me today. That does not worry me one
bit. I am like athick-skinned animal. What the senior
member for St. Thomas has said will not move me
one bit.
6.35 p.m.

If he does not know about Ministerial Govern-
ment, let me tell him this: the Ministeris responsi-
ble for everything under his portfolio, including if a
man goes down the road and falls, so long as he is
working under him. It is the duty of the Minister to
see that the Ministry is run in the best form to suit
the general public.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On a point of order, Mr.
Chairman, is the Minister saying that Ministers are
responsible for the discipline of Civil Servants?

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: A Minister has nothing to
do with the disciplinary actions of a Civil Servant be-
cause he cannot hire and he cannot fire, as the junior
member for St. Joseph did when he was running the
Government.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On point of order, will
the Minister deny that he instructed the Postmaster
General to hold an enquiry into Mr. Wiles' case when


no complaint had been made byamemberof the pub-
lic to the proper sources?

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: I would not waste time to
answer the hon. member. It is my duty as Minister
if I get reports about Mr. Wiles to have them investi-
gated. Let me ask the hon. member this: if I had got
a report on Mr. Odle, would he have come in here to
raise the Cain he is trying to raise? I had a report
against Mr. Wiles and I am not going to hide this.
There is no love lost between myself and Mr. Wiles,
and there would be no love lost between myself and
the hon. senior member for St. Thomas. I like him
the same way he likes me how a butcher likes a pig.
When he is going to bring in all sorts of fancy talk
that before he is finished I am going to abuse his
mother God bless the lady and abuse his grand-
mother, that shows how low some people's minds
can get. I have had several complaints against Milton
Wiles whom you hear the hon. seniormemberfor St.
Thomas and his father trying to make out a case for
to the effect that he was not delivering the letters. Not
only was he not delivering the letters, butwe all know
that Milton Wiles canvassed forthe Barbados Labour
Party because they promised him to be some Post-
master at some time or the other. (ASIDES:)

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members who want to ad-
dress the Chair should stand and do so.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: It is known that this man
canvassed both during and outside his time of work.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am going to ask the hon. senior
member for St. James to address the Chair if he so
desires, but he should stand and do so.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Calvassing had absolutely
nothing to do with it, because he canvassed on two
occasions and lost; but when I get complaints from
residents in the area that this man refuses to deliver
letters and sends them by children, it is my duty as
Minister to have the matter investigated. You can talk
what you like about resigning; but if you want to get a
Government by default, it would not be so easy. When
the senior member for St. Thomas said that the wo-
man told him this nonsense, I categorically deny that
the woman told him this, because he was not allowed
to go in to the investigation.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, the Min-
ister was not there.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: On what has the hon. member
risen?


Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: This is a point of order.
I never said the woman told me. I said I heard the
woman say so with my own ears, and I had it taken
down by a shorthand reporter standing next to me and
had it signed in my office.



Mr. CHAIRMAN: The point has been made.








2076


Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Iwarnedthe seniormember
for St. Thomas that when he is dealing with me, he is
not dealing with any junior female Magistrate, and
that shouting cannot scare me. I am from Dayrells
IR)ad. I am like the cat, not the canary; I can take
care of myself. Nothing the hon. member can say
would make me change my attitude. He said some-
thing today about the Prime Minister saying some-
thing to me, but I have discovered that what he has
said is endemic in all lawyers. This is where I be-
lieve they start off their basic training, and I am
wondering if some of them are not made in the same
mould. If the Prime Minister said something to me,
he is the Prime Minister. (Mr. CRAIG: He cursed
you.) That is his prerogative and it is my prerogative
to curse him too if I want to, but I did not feel to do
that. (Mr. CRAIG: You ran and hid.) I ran and hid, but
I am still Minister of Communications.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I will not tolerate this talking
across the floor of the House.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order, is
it anything wrong to talk across the House? Have you
ever visited the House of Commons?

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: This is the kind of behaviour
you get all the time. I remember the Commissioner
of Wrecks and the Receiver of Wrecks. If you were
to read the book by John Mordecai, I do not re-
member the page but I will get it and come here and
read it you will see him quotingthe Commissioner
of Wrecks as saying that he must have been a crimi-
nal in his young days to come back here to be sent
to Trinidad. Nobody in the world could know about
you better than you know yourself; so it must have
been something that caused him to say so. I am not
prepared to argue with him about himself because I
believe he knows himself better than I know him.

However, getting back to the accusations. We
have heard these statements made on the floorof the
House before, but this does not alteranyfact; and as
long as I am Minister, Milton Wiles is going to de-
liver letters at a proper time so long as he is a post-
man or resign, and if the matter is put before the
Public Service Commission and he is dismissed, that
is a matter for him. I have no qualms about that. (Mr.
J. M. G. M. ADAMS: That would be unfortunate.) It
could not be any more unfortunate than it was for Dr.
Humby to have to leave here because of a tyrannical
leader we had here in this country. Dr. Humby ex-
posed the malnutrition at the Hospital and I heard
with my own ears in the Lower Green......

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Onapoint of order, will
the Minister say on what platform did Mr. Wiles sit
and prompt Opposition speakers?

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I do not consider that to be a
point of order.
Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Dr. Humby sat on a po-
litical platform and prompted speakers.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: I have seen village idiots,
Mr. Chairman, but I have never seen them so red


before. Dr. Humby was contributing something to this
country. (Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Wiles too.) Yes,
he is contributing something to you in your homo-
sexual activities. If that is unparliamentary, Mr.
Chairman, I beg to withdraw that statement.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: The captain of a ship
never told me to leave the galley boy alone yet. That
happened on the "Statesman". Ask the Minister.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this is
the kind of thing you get with people of his calibre;
but as I have said before, and will say again, nothing
that has been said on the floor of this House this af-
ternoon can make me change my attitude towards
Mr. Wiles, and even if Iwantedto change my attitude
I have a precedent for it in Dr. Humby who was
hounded down in this country, Napoleon Layne and
Dorian Farrell and many others. They were hounded
down by none other than the junior member for St.
Joseph, the Commissionerof Wrecks. We all know, as
I have said before, that some people could not tell the
truth by accident. There is such an expression, Mr.
Chairman, that quite a number of people use like
"congenital liar"; but when I am dealingwith certain
people I use the words "embryonic liar", which
means a liar from the day conception takes place.
They could not tell the truth even if they had to get a
passage into Heaven.
6.45 p.m.

There is nothing so dangerous as a lie inter-
mingled with the truth; but, as he has said, some
people win elections when there is no election. I win
mine when the voting time comes around. As he said
that he and Mr. Wiles and so-and-so, if I do not find
him in any uncompromising position, I will be there
too unless he plans, which some of theriare capable
of, to do away with me by default. But that does not
work so easily. As I have said, I am like the cat
which went to listen to the canary singing.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I have
so often in my life had accusations made against me
and ignored them, but found out afterwards that I did
wrong because failure to contradict might make peo-
ple feel that the accusations were right, that I have
changed that appalling bad habit of mine. Because of
what the hon. member has just said about Dr. Humby
and myself, I must deny his suggestion that I hounded
Dr. Humby out of this Island. It was reported to me
that Dr. Humby attended a political meeting held by
the present senior member for Bridgetown and he
got on the platform and attacked the Government for
failure to do something which he said they should
have done something about children being in the
Almshouse or something like that. I later said or
wrote that he had made this accusation against the
Government without drawing it to the Government's
attention. Dr. Humby sued me for libel or it might
have been slander, and I then discovered though I had
not been told before, that he had actually written a
letter to the responsible Minister orwho would have
been the Minister if we had a Ministerial system in
existence in those days that he had drawn it to the
attention of the Government although it never reached








2077


my desk or my ears either. I apologised to his solici-
tors and he withdrew that case. Afewyears ago Dr.
Humby came to this Island on visit; he came to see
me at home on a friendly visit and I again repeated
to him that I didn't knowat the time or I would never
have said that he did not draw it to the Government's
attention. If I allow what the hon. member has just
said to go without a contradiction, it would be quite
easy for those of us who have heard it to feel that I
did something wrong. "He is accused of trying to hunt
down a man who acted vindictively because of his
politics and that is his defence. You did it too with
Dr. Humby". That is utterly untrue. I did not know
when I said that Dr. Humby had done what he really
had not done, and I apologised. The case was with-
drawn and he did not leave Barbados because of that.
He was not fired, and when he came back we met as
friends.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, in the
actual Resolution itself there is something here about
the revisionofpostmen's routes. This is nothing to
do with Mr. Wiles although, in passing, I would say
that I doubt that Mr. Wiles will ever pay a visit to
Clapham to meet the Minister as a friend as Dr.
Humby did to the hon. junior member for St. Joseph.
The Minister would welcome him. Mr. Chairman,
first of all, I wonder if the Minister, in respect of
Mr. Wiles' route, could look into the questionof that
route, because I thinkthat Mr. Wiles' experience over
the years has enabled the route to be serviced with
reasonable expedition, but it is avery big route. Since
it was established, probably in 1929 or 1930, the
Housing Development at Clermont there was only
one house up there, but there are now a large num-
ber, some apparently in St. Thomas and the old
house at Clermont used to get its mail from St.
James. It seems that Clermont which is at the fur-
therest possible end of St. Thomas, has been added
to the travelling, and more recently the building up
of Bagatelle and Redmans Village area have in-
creased the population a great deal and Rock Hall is
a very heavily populated area. Could the Minister,
since there will have to be a replacement on that
particular route, seek to relieve the load of whatever
postman goes there to some extent by making it a
little more manageable and servicable? It is not only
Clermont, but there is a house in Warrens Hill, and
it may not be realized that, in fact, when you build
one house a mile away from the nearest house which
a postman previously had to serve, you might, in fact,
be adding twenty minutes to the delivery time of
letters at a later stage down the route. That is ex-
actly what has happened by the building of a house in
Warrens Hill and the building of houses in Clermont.
I think the Minister may be aware of this. The route
may be unmanageable by a new postman. They talk
about complaints about people not getting letters; I
am sure that people in the more remote parts of that
walk are not going to get their letters at all by a new
postman as easily and as early as they have been de-
livered by an experienced one. I would be glad if the
Minister would give his attention to that.

I observe from a later Resolution which will
come before the House, that no new postmen seems to


have been sent to St. Thomas. Again, the population
of Barbados when the number of postmen was fixed
is probably less than it is now, and the number of
houses was certainly much less because more peo-
ple have houses than used to have houses. The oc-
cupancy in the houses was less, and more people are
getting more letters because the number of Bar-
badians in the United Kingdom is still increasing and,
as the Minister will know, in respect of this same
matter, Canada. As it increases, so does thework of
each postman and the postal services in the dis-
tricts. If you compare it with the service as set out
in the Post Office Guide in the 1930's you will realise
how far it has declined. These Guideswere very pre-
cise as to the time when the postmen had to pass each
particular landmark of their walk. A spot-check has
revealed that in the placeswhere I have looked, post-
men pass between an hour and a half or two hours
later than they used to pass 30 years ago. This is
where the situation is comparable for afternoon de-
liveries. I am sure that the Minister would try to
improve that aspect of it.

Mr. Chairman, there is also one last thing; the
Minister should really try and publish another Post
Office Guide. These old Guides are very useful, and
with the increased staff, there should be a little re-
lief on the work load of people who would normally
be in a position to produce the Guide.
6.55 p.m.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: I notice that the senior
member for St. Thomas has boiled down somewhat -
like bush tea and he has made what considerto
be a reasonable request. I agree that the area ser-
viced by his "pet subject" (Mr. Wiles) is a fairly
long area. There is point I wantto make here. When
the Government first came into office, it offered post-
men an opportunity to get a loan to buy autocycles
to ride. For some reason orother, Mr. Wiles did not
avail himself of this loan. Every man is free to do
as he likes.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, on a
point of order. It is not Mr. Wiles himself who has
complained about the route. I have observed that the
route is bigger. What the Minister says about Mr.
Wiles and the autocycle is quite true. I advised him to
get one, and he said he only had a few more years in
the Service and he would not worry.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, what the hon.
member has said is true, because Clermont is now a
built-up area and more houses are going up there.
As he says, there is a wall house owned by the Chal-
lenors and so on. I should also add that I think there
are two additional postmen working in St. Thomas
apart from the regular postmen, but Iwould look into
the request for distributing the route differently, or
putting another postman there to relieve the pressure
of work. I will also look into the question of Post
Office Guides. I know that Clermont and Redman Vil-
lage are big areas, and I will look into the matter.

The question that the Resolution for $22,739 do now
pass was put and resolved in the affirmative without division.








2078


SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 1968-69 No.23
A Resolution for $2,099 was called.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I think that
this Resolution is really self-explanatory. There is
nothing to it, except that I ought to say that we pro-
pose to give a National Flag to all the educational
institutions in this Island, not only our own schools
and colleges, but the independent and other schools
as well. I think that 200 flags would just cover the
demand. I beg to move that this Resolution do now
pass..

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, this Resolution is
for the sum of $2,099 to meet the cost of 200 flags. I
agree with the Addendum which states:

"It was a tradition for government-maintained
schools in Barbados to be supplied with a full-sized
Union Jack as a pledge of loyalty......"

Now that we are an independent country, it is also
the time that we must pledge some bit of loyalty to
our flag. I hope the quality of the flags, which Gov-
ernment proposes to purchase with this money, will
be of a quality worthy of the loyalty which we, as
Barbadians, will pay to our flag. It is embarrassing
at times when one goes along the street and sees
some half-gold or half-yellow flags sometimes you
cannot tell the colour of the flags not only flying on
Government buildings, but also on commercial build-
ings. It is not the best type of thing one would like to
see, and it certainly gives one the impression that
the same way the flag looks our nation is likely to be:
tattered, weather beaten and out of colour.

Sir, I wish to make a suggestion that the time
has come I like to give Jackhis jacket. The senior
member for St. John is the Prime Minister of this
country. We have to accept this, for how long we do
not know, but as it is at the moment he is the Prime
Minister. I am hoping that Iwill see the day when the
Prime Minister's car bears the standard. I am sure
we cannot be asking Government for too much in or-
der to see the Prime Minister's car bearing the
standard with the pride of which he and all of us on
this side of the House boast of our nation.

I can recall that one evening I was attending a
State funeral, or Memorial Service, for Senator
Kennedy. I was chatting with the Minister of Trade
and the police, not knowing, diverted the Minister's
car to go and park in some back street area. I figure,
and this is my own firm opinion, that the time has
come when, as in other countries like Trinidad and
in other territories I have visited, you see the Min-
isters of Government and, I believe in some of
them Parliamentarians carrying something of
recognition on their cars. I am not saying this be-
cause I am looking for anything to put on my car,
but I am saying it in the interest of all concerned.

I remember some time ago there were some
very unpleasant circumstances when I came into the


compound to attend my duty in Parliament. A young
policeman shouted across to me and said: "Buddy
you cannot park there." I askedhimwhy, and he said
"That stand is reserved for members of Par-
liament". I told him that I was a member of Par-
liament, and he quite nicely apologised. I say this,
because at the Training School, even if you teach
policemen to pay courtesies, which they seldom do,
to members of Parliament, it is unfortunate thatthey
cannot know every car number of a member of Par-
liament. Even if they knew the car numberof a mem-
ber of Parliament, it is likely that he may change
his car. The time has come when there should be
some form of recognition that members of Parlia-
ment should carry on their cars for the purpose of
getting to and fro to do their public duties without any
interference. If the public elected us here to do their
job and carry out their wishes, it is fair that we
should have the respect which is given to them.

I have suffered again, and I think my colleague
here suffered this unfortunate incident, to have my
baggage tumbled over when I was travelling. I firmly
believe, Mr. Chairman, that it would be a good idea
not only for us to make sure that Government pro-
vides the best quality flags to fly on buildings, but
also to provide some form of recognition for mem-
bers of Parliament.
7.05 p.m.
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I should like to give the hon.
member the assurance that the points he has raised
I will take up with the Ministry of Home Affairs.

The question that the Resolution for $2,099 do now pass
was put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 1968-69 No.24


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, hon. mem-
bers are aware that at a later stage we are dealing
with another Resolution on School Meals. The dis-
tinction between the two simply is that nutrition is a
separate item in the Estimates under the Ministryof
Education, and has to do with the milk and biscuits
scheme for which separate transportation has always
been arrange. Hitherto this has been done by way of
contract, but the Ministry has discovered they
knew this quite some time, it is true that it is not
now only a question of transportation of milk and
biscuits to those schools which are not yet served by
the School Meals service; it is also the problem of
the transportation of books, educational apparatus,
furniture in some cases, and all that for which at
the moment the work has to be done by contract.

The proposal here therefore is to purchase a
truck for this reason. Hon. members could con-
ceivably ask why we do not for instance put this on
to the School Meals Service. The reason is that the
School Meals vans have to conform to certain spe-
cifications; they have to have shelves and racks in
them which have to be put in specially for holding
the containers firmly. They are not, therefore, suit-
able for general freighting and therefore forgeneral
freighting we need this extra truck.








2079


I do not know if there is anything else I may be
asked; if so, I would answer it, but I cannot think of
it myself.

I beg to move that Head 38 Ministry of Educa-
tion (5) Schools, stand part of the Resolution.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, this item on trans-
portation of educational supplies gives a little cause
for concern, because it so happens that up to the fifth
week of the school term justended, quite a number of
the Primary Schools and some of the Comprehensive
Schools had not received their educational supplies.
Some of the Headteachers had to raise money by way
of tarpaulin musters to make purchases in some
areas, and I can say that such things as chalk in one
case, textbooks, stationery, teachers' registers and
log books were bought. During the past term, teach-
ers had to use exercise books as log books at some
of the schools, and it would appear as if since 1964
there has really been some difficulty in having this
phase of the work of the Ministry carried out ef-
ficiently. Since that time there has beenwhat I would
call a school feeding system between the Educational
Supplies Association overseas and the Ministry, and
consequently from the Ministry to the schools.

I do not want to hold up the passing of this par-
ticular Resolution for any time except to say that
Headteachers have found it difficult, particularly
during the past term, to get through with their work
even in the case of nutrition. Some schools had to go
without supplies of sugar up to the third week, and
as regards stationery and the like, it has gone the
rounds that teachers meet in the City on Saturdays
and other days that are available to them and make a
joke now by showing each other three fingers. I had
to try and learn the meaning of these three fingers,
and they say they have what is called a three "S"
system obtaining in these schools, and it means the
"Schools Starvation System." This is not with ref-
erence to school meals; it is with reference to sup-
plies of stationery and the nutrition scheme and in
respect of sugar for sweetening milk andthat kind of
thing.

The question of transporting supplies to schools
is one which I would like the Minister to go into most
carefully. I have here in my hand Circular No. 74/
1968, which went out from the Permanent Secretary,
Ministry of Education to Heads of Primary and Com-
prehensive Schools and dated 18th June, 1968. This
Circular reads as follows:-

"Books received by this Ministry under the
Raufurly and Canadian Gift Schemes are now avail-
able for selection by Headteachers or their repre-
sentatives. The book cover a wide range and have
been kindly classified into units by members of the
Peace Corps Volunteers to facilitate selection. I
should be grateful if you will call at this Ministry
and select requirements for your school on the
morning of Wednesday, 19th, or Thursday, 20thJune,
1968."


It was signed by one Byer for the Ministry of
Education. Mr. Chairman, this summons that went
out to Headteachers has not been received very well
by all of them. I know that one Headteacher who has
acted as Inspector of Schools on occasion went to
Headquarters to get his supplyof books, gothis pants
torn by having to jump over these packing cases,
and it is the feeling generally of Headteachers that
the supplies of books ought to be sent out to them.
On the morning in question when the bulk of these
teachers was in, I remember one Headteacherfight-
ing her way to the bus carrying stacks of books, and
it was not at all a pleasant sight to behold. It is not
every Headteacher who has a motor car, andl would
say further that while a teacher would have an in-
terest in his school and go to make his selection, he
then has to carry them in his car and he ought to be
paid; but you cannot insult the Headteachers by of-
ferring them payment for taking books in their cars.
Their cars are not supposed to be vans; they are for
their own private use. If a truck is going to be pro-
vided for the transportation of supplies to schools, I
am for it 100 per cent, because I would not like to
see Headteachers or their assistants suffer the in-
dignities that they did during the pastterm in the se-
lection and collecting of books and other supplies
The question that Head 38 Ministry of Education (5)
Schools, stand part was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.
7.15 p.m.
HEAD 40 MINISTRY OF HEALTH AND
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT

COMMONWEALTH CRAFTS CENTRE

Head 40 Ministry of Health and Community Develop-
ment was called.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, in moving
the passing of this Head 40 and Item 175 (New) -
Commonwealth Crafts Centre the note sets out the
position. The position is that the sum of $2,400 is re-
quired for making an outright grant to the Common-
wealth Partnership Association Ltd., of London,
England to enable Barbados to join the Commonwealth
Crafts Centre Scheme. The position is that the sum
of $1,440 will buy handicraft and thatwill help handi-
craft development in Barbados. (MEMBERS: All
right.) I beg to move that Head 40 stand part of the
Schedule.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to second that.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, it would appearthat
we are dealing with some business here that I am
completely ignorant about. I have not received any
Order Paper or any of these things which are being
dealt with here. I understand that they were sent out
last night or yesterday afternoon by policeman, but
I have not received anything at all. I do not know if I
should say "yes" or "no" to what we are dealing
with. It is rather surprising to me; I have not re-
ceived anything, and I do not think that that is fair
to me. Other hon. members have received theirs, but
I have not received anything. I do not know if the po-








2080


licemen think that I live in a hole or something like
that, but all I can do now is to quarrel and do not let
anything pass.

The question that Head 40 stand part of the Schedule
was put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move
that a Resolution for the sum of $9,900 do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move
that you do now report progress and ask for leave
for the Committee to sit again.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

The Chairman reported and Mr. SPEAKER resumed
the Chair and reported accordingly.

SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this Sitting be now suspended until 8.30 p.m. of
the clock.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, this time is getting to
bed time, I think that half an hour's suspension of the
Sitting should be good enough and let us come back
in and work because it appears to me as if we have to
go on until morning. That being so, are we to hang
around here until 8.30 o'clock? I wonder, Sir, if I
would be in order to move. (ASIDES)



The question that this sitting be now suspended until
8.30 p.m. of the clock was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.
7.25 p.m.
On resumption:

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I observe that
there is no quorum present, and I ask that the bell
be rung.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am grateful to the hon. mem-
ber, and I thank him for drawing it to my attention.
Please let the bell be rung.

The bell was rung and a quorum obtained.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, before the
House goes back into Committee of Supply, Iam ask-
ing leave to move anhumble Address to Her Majesty.


Mr. SPEAKER: Unless there is any objection,
leave will be granted. There being no objection, leave
is granted the Hon. Leader of the House to proceed
to move that Address immediately.

DEATH OF H.R.H. PRINCESS MARINA,
DOWAGER DUCHESS OF KENT

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that the following Address be passed to Her Majesty
The Queen:
"THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
TO
THE QUEEN'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY

Most Gracious Sovereign

The House of Assembly desire to place on record
their propound expression of sympathy at the death
of Her Royal Highness The Princess Marina, Dowa-
ger Duchess of Kent.

The House of Assembly have noted her signal
contributions to charitable organizations andherde-
voted service to all aspects of Commonwealth unity
during her lifetime.

The House of Assembly most respectfully re-
quest Your Majesty to express to the sorrowing re-
latives of the late Dowager Duchess of Kent their
condolences at her death."

Mr. Speaker, it is customary on occasions like
this and bereavements in the Royal Family, Common-
wealth Parliaments pass appropriate Resolutions of
sympathy. I do not knowwhether inthis country ex-
cept a few of us......

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that copies have not
yet been given either to the hon. and learned Leader
of the Opposition, or to the hon. junior member for
Bridgetown. I wonder if copies will be circulated.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I am sorry about that; I un-
derstood the Clerk to be getting that ready.

Mr. SPEAKER: Yes, past experience.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: But I have consultedwith the
hon. member already on the text of it. I do not sup-
pose, Mr. Speaker, that very many people in this
Island knew the late Duchess of Kent, but by all ac-
counts she was a devoted person, and set a shining
example through her charm and grace in public life,
and was, indeed, very widely loved and respected in
the United Kingdom.

One of the things, Mr. Speaker, that, regret-
tably, makes all humanity of equal merit is the fact
that at some time or other we have to sympathize
with each other on occasions of bereavement, and
this is true whether it happens in the reigning family,
or among any of us members of this House, or out-
side of it; and I think that this expression of sym-








2081


pathy ought to go out if only for the fact, Mr. Speaker,
that in a very special respect we have been con-
nected with the late Duchess of Kent in the fact that
her son was the honoured guest of this country at the
time of our Independence representing Her Majesty
The Queen.

I am sure that the House specially agrees with
the last paragraph of this Resolution inwhichwe are
asking the Queen to pass on to the late Duchess'
relatives, and this will certainly include her son, our
profound regret at her passing. I beg o move the Ad-
dress.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, apart
from the formal nature of expressing our sympathy
in this way, I thinkit is avery good thought of, I sup-
pose, the Leader of the House, who originally drafted
this, to point out that the Duchess was expressly
known for her charitable activities. As hon. members
will know from photographs, if they did not actually
see her in the flesh, that she was tall, stately, digni-
fied, and you could see in her expression a kindly
disposition. Persons who knew her used to point out
that the word "gracious" was peculiarly applicable
to her both as regards what you may call her de-
meanour, and also as regards her activities and
her approach to other persons.

It is, I should think, for those of us who had only
a nodding acquaintance, or a formal acquaintance,
with her it is more than mere words to say that
when persons of that disposition pass from this
world, you can really and truly express your sorrow
and your condolences to their relatives. I beg to se-
cond this Resolution.

Mr. SPEAKER: I beg to associate myself with
the remarks made by the Hon. Leader of the House
and the Hon. Leader of the Opposition, and, to indi-
cate our supporting the passing of this Resolution,
I ask hon. members if they would join me in standing
in their places for a period of two minutes.

Hon. Members stood in their places for two minutes.

Mr. SPEAKER: I declare this Resolution unani-
mously passed, and I direct the Clerk of the Table
to see that it be complied with as expeditiously as
possible.

Before we revert to Committee of Supply, there
are certain notices which, I understand, were not on
the Notice Paper this morning when His Honour the
Deputy Speaker was so good as to take the Chair in
my absence. Those notices were later placed on the
Paper, and it is no fault of hon. members that their
notices were not given at the proper time. Again, I
have to admit that it would seem to be the fault of
the office here. They may have my permission now
to give these notices.

NOTICES OF RESOLUTIONS

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I beg to givenotice of
the following Resolutions:-


WHEREAS it is public knowledge that the Bar-
bados Academy, a Government approved Private
Secondary School, has ceased to operate, andwillnot
be re-opening this term;

AND WHEREAS the closing of this school is
bound to cause great inconvenience and hardship to
the parents and guardians of the pupils of this school
to find over 240 places in other schools at this very
late hour, when such other schools are already burst-
ing at the seams for more space;

BE IT RESOLVED that this House request the
Government to undertake the running of the above-
mentioned school with the same staff for the next
term or more until school places can be found for
these boys, especially as they are now pupils of a
school that has gained Government approval.
8.40 p.m.

WHEREAS since the closing down of the "Daily
News" newspaper, the public are deprived of allpo-
litical information and speeches made in the House
of Assembly by their representatives;

AND WHEREAS the "Advocate-News" is falling
miserably to give such publication;

BE IT RESOLVED that this House request the
Government to have the broadcasting of debates in
this House of Assembly given top priority in the
programmes broadcast by Radio Barbados, and also
to have prompt publication and circulation of the
printed debates at a reasonable price throughout the
Island.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give notice
of the following Resolution:-

BE IT RESOLVED that this House request the
Government so to amend the Motor Vehicle (Third
Party Risk) Insurance Act, 1962 as to make com-
pulsory for all motor vehicle owners a Full Third
Party Insurance as a minimum requirement.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give notice
of the following Resolution:

BE IT RESOLVED that this House request the
Government to make provision for the increasing
number of alcoholics in this Island who after treat-
ment. at the Mental Hospital are now housed in the
various infirmaries of the island and have no home
of their own.


QUESTIONS


Mr. SPEAKER: There are questions which I am
afraid, through no fault of hon. members, could not
have been given notice of at the appropriate time this
morning. Hon. members may give such notices now.


Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give notice of
the following Questions:








2082


How many policemen have been posted for night
duty at Sam Lord's Hotel between January 1st and
July, 31st this year?

2. On each night that policemen were posted at
Sam Lord's, how many were on duty in the rest of
the area controlled by the District "C" Police Sta-
tion?

3. Is it a fact that the men posted at Sam Lord's
have been subjected to the indignity of havingto take
orders regarding police duties from one Major Ronald
Stoute, who is not now police officer attached to the
Royal Barbados Police Force?

4. Will Government take immediate steps toen-
sure that discipline and the moral life of the Royal Bar-
bados Police Force is in no way hamperedby having
members of the Force take orders about police duties
from persons not authorised to give such orders?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

With a view to meeting the needs of the children
of post-Primary and Comprehensive school age in the
Northern parishes of this Island, would Government
treat as a priority establishing a Comprehensive co-
educational School at Barrow's near the St. Lucy-
St. Peter boundary, or at a suitable place on the St.
James-St. Peter border without delay?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Is it a fact that the Headteacher of West St.
Joseph School receives a monthly salarywhich is less
than that of one of his Assistants?

2. Will Government state the salary of the Head-
teacher and that of his assistant?

3. If the answer to No. 1 is in the affirmative,
will Government take immediate steps to correct this
anomalous situation?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Has the new Lodge Hill Reservoir been com-
pleted?

2. If so, when?

3. If the answer to No. 1 is in the affirmative,
when does Government intend honouring its promise
stated in writing on 3rd, February, 1966 to give
priority to the laying of a water main at Storey Gap
Codrington Hill on completion of the Reservoir?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

What hotels in this Island, if any, have private
bathing beaches?

2. Does Sandy Lane Hotel at St. James have a
private beach?


3. Will Government take note of the fact that the
said Sandy Lane Hotel is advertising swimming on a
private beach to tourists?

4. What steps Government consider taking with
a view to correcting the impression which has gone
abroad as a result of the actions of this Hotel as at
No. 3 above?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

In view of the beach erosion taking place on the
South and West Coasts of this Island, would Govern-
ment appoint a Commission without infringing onthe
rights of bona fide property owners, to

(a) preserve existing public entrances to
the beaches;
(b) restore such entrances as might have
lawfully existed but have been en-
croached upon by adjoining land-owners
(c) post adequate signboards or other
marks of identification to indicate to the
public the existence of any public en-
trance to the beaches; and
(d) to make recommendations for the ac-
quiring of accesses to beaches for the
public, without prejudice to the right of
any landowner andwithout attempting to
create any encumbrance on any existing
property-owner?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Now that the Minister of Education no longer
controls broadcasting and television, does Govern-
ment propose proceeding with the plan of "educa-
tional television" for which there was a provision
for approximately $29,000.00 in 1967-68 Estimates?

2. Who will be responsible for the "educational"
portion of the programme and who will be responsi-
ble for the "television" portion?

3. Does Government consider that the interest
of the school-population and the public generally
can best be served by divorcing broadcasting and
television functions from the education portfolio?
8.50 p.m.

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Is Government aware of the considerable ap-
prehension, the lack of security and the broad feelings
of disgust amongst merchants, warehouse-keepers,
manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers and dis-
tributors, supermarket operators, shopkeepers -
large and small in both City and country districts
and the business community generally, over the out-
rageous building breaking and larcenies, and some,
with marked frequency at some business places, and
as a result of the loss of commodities of very high
value, havoc is being wrought to the commercial
element of this country?








2083


2. Would Government consider the better de-
ployment of the present numbers of the Royal Barba-
dos Police Force so that there be increased
foot-patrol by uniformed policemen in the City by
night, as well as increased tours of duty by plain-
clothes policemen?

3. Is Government aware that because of the fre-
quency of the brealings and the larcenies being com-
mitted, City businessmen have experienced some
difficulty in recruiting additionalwatchmen for night
duty because of fear of being murdered by,the ma-
rauders?

4. What steps does the Government intend taking
to crush this threat to life and property?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Is it a fact that between September, 1965 and
March, 1966 a staff-member of the Government's
School-meals Scheme received from the Treasury
an amount of $291.33 in excess of any sum due to the
said worker?

2. What is the name of the worker who received
this excess money?

3. It is a fact that Government waived repay-
ment of $253.33 of the said sum, leaving the worker
to repay a mere $38.00 of the said $291.33?

4. What influenced Government's decision to
waive so substantial an amount of the over-drawn
money?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

Is Government aware that residents of Lonesome
Hill, St. Peter, have to walk long distances to fetch a
supply of water for their homes?

2. Will Government take steps to provide a
standpipe at a central point of the said Lonesome Hill
Road so that residents may be better served?

Mr. SPEAKER: The same hon. member his
question re grounds and buildings at Parley Hill, St.
Peter.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the ap-
propriate Minister:-

What are Government's plans for developing the
grounds and buildings at Farley Hill?

2. If there are plans, when does Government in-
tend putting same into effect?
3. Will Government consider establishing alot-
tery, exclusively for this development, and to be
known as the Farley Hill Lottery Development Scheme
or, to be known by any other name acceptable to
Government?

4. Does Government have plans for acquiring
additional lands adjoining Parley Hill?


5. Is it a fact that the future entrance to Parley
Hill may be by way of lands now' forming part of
Welchtown Plantation?

6. Would Government take immediate steps to
provide temporary seating accommodation at the
Band-stand at Farley Hill for the benefit of visitors
and others who go there?

Mr. SPEAKER: Will the same hon. member con-
tinue his question re Farley Hill bandstand, St.
Peter?

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I have just covered the
band stand.

Mr. SPEAKER: I must apologise to the hon.
member. That has been put down here as a separate
question.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the ap-
propriate Minister:-

Would Government consider extending the water
mains at the Four Hill Lonesome Hill junction to
accommodate those residents at the Four Hill dis-
trict who are willing to have water services installed
at their homes?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Is Government aware that the water supply at
Mount, St. Peter, and St. Andrew is intermittent and
very unsatisfactory to meet the needs of the residents
there?

Will Government take steps to improve the water
supply there and also consider the laying of the nec-
essary mains to enable householders to have the op-
portunity of having water services installed at their
homes?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Is it a fact that Government intends building a
kitchen costing $17,500.00 for the Housecraft Cen-
tre?

2. If the answer is in the affirmative, what are
the dimensions of this kitchen and what materials
will be used in the construction thereof?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Is Government aware of the considerable volume
of business transacted between the firm known as
International Scientific Limited and Her Majesty's
Customs at Barbados?

2. Do Invoices employed by International Scien-
tific Limited meet the requirements of the Customs
in every case?


3. Are consignments of goods or samples or
whatever else to International Scientific Limited bear








2084


. proper valuations and do packages contain what is
stated on the parcel contents notice in every case?

4. How many times has International Scientific
Limited made use of a "Bill of Sight" since op-
erating in this Island?

5. Is Government aware that documents for
Customs examinations which ought to have been pre-
pared by overseas shippers have been prepared by
International Scientific Limited at Barbados instead?

6. Is Government aware that methods employed
in the importation of both dutiable and duty-free
goods by this firm constitute a breach of the Cus-
toms regulations in many respects?

7. Will Government appoint a body of experts
to examine all documents presented to Customs by
International Scientific Limited for the importation
of commodities?

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that I have no no-
tice of any other questions by the hon. junior member
for St. Peter.
9.00 p.m.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the ap-
propriate Minister:-

1. Is this Government aware of the hardships,
inconvenience, and loss of money that the residents
of Fruitful Hill, Cane Garden, and Church Village, in
the parish of St. Joseph, and the travelling public are
experiencing daily, due to the abandonment of the two
roads in the district?

2. If the answer is in the affirmative, will the
Government see to it that these two roads are put into
a good state of repair immediately and/or before
Christmas time and before the next reaping season
begins?

3. Is the Minister aware of the great necessity
for water in those districts of the parish of St. Joseph
where the residents have already made petitions for
this vital necessity?

4. If the answer is "Yes", will the Minister
state how many such petitions have been made and
have been brought to his attention, and also if and
when the water supply will be installed in these dis-
tricts?

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the ap-
propriate Minister.-

1. Will the Minister cause repairs to be effected
to the Nightingale Home, Black Rock St. Michael,
paying special attention to the enclosing of the said
Home?

2. Will the Minister also consider, in view of
the limited space now occupied by the said Home and
the number of occupants therein, its extension?


To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

1. Will the Minister take immediate steps to
provide an office for the Leader of the Opposition at
the Parliament Buildings, Bridgetown?

Mr. SPEAKER: It would seem that there are no
other Notices re Private members' Business.

NOTICE OF RESOLUTIONS

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
Hon. and learned Prime Minister, Minister of Fi-
nance and Minister of External Affairs, I begto give
notice of a Resolution to place the sum of $2,148 at
the disposal of the Government to supplement the
Estimates 1968-69, Part I, Current, as shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 31whichform
the Schedule to the Resolution.

I also give notice of my intention to move the
House into Committee of Supply at its next sitting to
deal with this Money Resolution.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give
notice of the following Resolution:

A Resolution to approve the expenditure required
to Supplement the Annexed Estimates for the Port
Department for the year 1968-69 as shown in the
Schedule to the Resolution.

MINUTES

Mr. SPEAKER: I am informed that, after the
sitting of the House commenced today, minutes of
five previous meetings arrived andwere, accordingly
not placed on my file until after His Honour the Deputy
Speaker had been so good as to carry on for me in my
enforced absence.

I would also point out that these five sets of min-
utes were not circulated until last night, so far as my
information goes, and so faras has happenedwith me
personally.I do not know if hon. members have had ade -
quate opportunity to study those five sets of minutes
in the time available, and unless I am assured that
they have had such time I, personally, have not -
I will defer consideration of their confirmation.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: If Your Honour had not
mentioned it, I intended to raise the matter. I re-
ceived the minutes at six o'clock, and I certainly
want to read them.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am not asking hon. members
to consider confirmation of these minutes today. It
continues to be a source of regret to me that these
minutes are not circulated by the Government Prin-
tery within a few days within not more than three
or four days after each meeting.


Before the sitting was suspended the House was
in Committee of Supply.








2085


Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and Mr. YEARWOOD took
the Chair.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY


SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 1968-69 No.25

A Resolution for S112,170 was called.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, this provision,
as hon. members will see from the Addendum, is
required to meet the cost of the establishment of an
Embassy in Washington, and attention is also drawn
to the fact that the estimate for this is set out in the
Appendix to the Addendum.
9.10 p.m.

I wish, however, to draw two things and one
other thing to the attention ofhon. members before
I go further. I think they know that provision is made
in the current Estimates underHead 22 Item 59(a) for
an additional Mission, and what is proposed here will
not exceed the provision already laid down; but for
certain strictly financial and accounting purposes,
the supplementary is asked for and has to be done
in this way.


Now there is some background to this proposal,
and I think it proper that the Committee should know.
When the country became independent, the first de-
cision which we made for representational services
in Washington was as follows: we created two diplo-
matic posts, one for First Secretary and one Secre-
tary or in Civil Service parlance, one Senior
Assistant Secretary and one Secretary. Since this
decision was taken, and this decision was takenvery
early last year, either in February or March, Bar-
bados became a member of the Organisation of
American States, and in conformity with the practice
and tradition of that body, it becomes necessary to ap-
point a representative to the Organisation with the
rank of Ambassador. At the same time it is also
necessary for us to maintain our representational
strength by accreditation of an Ambassador to the
United States Government. Consequently in recogni-
tion of this and in view of the fact that the Ambassa-
dor of Barbados accredited to the United States is
also the Permanent Representative to the United
Nations and resides in New York, we fee that a Bar-
bados Embassy should be established inWashington,
and that the staff of the Embassy should service both
the Ambassador to the Organisation of American
States and the Ambassador to the United States of
America. The Ambassador accredited to the United
States will continue to reside in New York, but will
of course appear in Washington as circumstances
warrant. The Ambassador accredited to the Organi-
sation of American States will of course be resident
fully and wholly in New York. So the proposed struc-
ture, Mr. Chairman, of the Washington Embassywill
be as follows: the office will be headed by the Am-
bassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary accre-
dited to the United States Government. The
administrative head of the Office would be a Perma-


nent Secretary who would be accredited like all
members of the staff both to the United States prin-
cipally and to the Organisation of American States.
His accreditation in respect of the O.A.S. would be
at the level of Ambassador, but in respect of the
United States of America he would be known as the
Minister of Counsellor of the Embassy.

The distinction here is a simple one and one
which is customary. Representation of countries of
the Organisation of American States is at the level of
Ambassador, because member countries of O.A.S.
are of course required to be members of the O.A.S.
Council and by common consent in O.A.S. circles
Council members are given the rank of Ambassador,
but this is only in respect of O.A.S. Ambassadors
accredited, however, to countries as distinct from
Ambassadors accredited to organizations, are of
course plenipotentiaries and rank higher than Am-
bassadors accredited merely to organizations.

Now to summarize this aspect of it, I should like
to explain that the Mission of Barbados in Washington
will be dually accredited, that is, accredited to the
United States as well as to the Council of O.A.S.
with this exception: the Ambassador to the United
States will not be concerned with matters of repre-
sentation at O.A.S. These matters of representation
to O.A.S. will be under the direct and answerable
control of the Ambassador accredited toO.A.S. Per-
haps at this stage it would be as well to make the
Committee aware of the particular job descriptions
of these offices. The Ambassador to O.A.S. who will
also be Minister Counsellor in the Embassy accre-
dited to the United States would have a job description
as follows: to be a member representative of Barba-
dos on the Council of the Organisation of American
States, reporting directly on Organisation of Ameri-
can States matters to the Permanent Secretary,
Ministry of External Affairs and to the Minister of
Caribbean and Latin American Affairs, and to be the
Administrative Head and Accounting Officer of the
Barbados Embassy to the United States of America,
and to be in charge, under the direction of the Am-
bassador accredited to the United States, of the day-
to-day administration of that office. In the absence of
the Ambassador accredited to the United States, this
officer will be a member representative of Barbados
at Washington.

Now in addition to this, there are one or two
other points arising out of the Resolution which I
think ought to be covered. The Ambassador to the
Organisation of American States who will rank in
Civil Service terms as a Permanent Secretary will
of course receive the emoluments and pay of a Per-
manent Secretary, and he will of course also receive
the special representational allowances which attach
to public officers of this rank in the foreign service.
At the moment this representational allowance is
75% of the officer's basic salary, and it is payable
in the currency of the country in which the officer
is serving. A chauffer-driven car will be placed at
his disposal for official use, and the expenditure for
this is also reflected in the estimate submitted in








2086


this Resolution. There are other things, of course, in,
the Resolution both of recurrent and non-recurrent
expenditure. The recurrent expenditure covers per-
sonal emoluments both for the established and the
non-established staff as well as the overseas allow-
ances for the various officers, as well as other
charges, and the non-recurrent includes the motor
car I have just referred to as well as furniture and
equipment for the Washington Embassy. I cannot
anticipate every possible question that maybe asked,
but if hon. members have any questions, they may
ask them and I will try my best to answer them.

I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, the fi-
nancial implications of this Resolution, although the
Minister introducing it neglected to say so, are not
considerable for Barbados as I gather, and this is
just a re-arrangement and re-allocation of expen-
diture which the House has already approved. Now,
Mr. Chairman, I find myself hesitating to say things
and being warned by my colleagues against saying
these things in respect of matters like this.
9.20 p.m.

I should say at once that were this not so, I
would be opposing the entire idea even more than I
am opposing it, because in the middle of the "film
flam" which we had from the Leader of the House,
in all the wrapping up of unpalatable ideas and un-
palatable words, it really comes down to this; that
Barbados is finding itself in such deep financial wa-
ters where foreign affairs are represented, that it
takes "film flam" to conceal them from the eyes of
the public and of the House of Assembly. Who could
conceive, Mr. Chairman, thatwe would find ourselves
with a High Commissionerin Canada, anAmbassador
in Washington and an Ambassador to the O.A.S. -
three diplomatic posts? Who heard the Prime Minis-
ter read a White Paper referring to somebody's
estimate of $500,000 a year as being the cost of the
Foreign Service? The Foreign Service is costing
more than C.B.C., and all of this now that we are
going around and around is to appoint an Ambassador,
a representative at the oldest and the most moribund
of international organizations. I do not want to take
away anything from the dignity of the Ministerial of-
fice of the Leader of the House. He is the Minister
for Caribbean and Latin American Affairs or what-
ever it is. In the Caribbean part he is not allowed to
do anything of any significance in the course of his
duties and in the Latin American part of it, there is
not anything he can do. We, in the Barbados Labour
Party, have opposed all of this nonsense of O.A.S.
Guyana is not a member of O.A.S.; she cannot be a
member of O.A.S. as long as she has a boundary dis-
pute with Venezuela, and it looks now as if she will
never be a member of O.A.S. Unless she is willing
to give up to Venezuela a very considerable portion
of her territory; and yet Guyana is benefiting from
American help one might say American bribery -
to an enormous degree.


We, in Barbados, have not seen a penny of it.
(Hon. J. C. TUDOR: We do not have a Jagan.) The
Hon. Leader of the House says that we do not have a
Jagan; but if we could believe the Prime Minister,
we have some Jagans developing very strongly in
Pinfold Street, and, according to the Prime Minister,
in St. Philip where they are even drilling. I think I
remember hearing him say that in here once. Ob-
viously, since the Hon. Leader of the House is de-
ploring the fact that we do not have a Jagan, the
Prime Minister's remarks about the Pinfold Street
activists must be directed at the Ambassador of the
United States rather than at members of this House.
The O.A.S. is a minus organisation. It is an Organisa-
tion which exists for the purpose of having chauffeur-
driven cars in Washington with self-important
officials driving about in them. Barbados has been
to some extent immune from the disease of self-
importance in its overseas representation. Insofar
as we have self-importance and chest-puffing over-
seas representatives, we only have about 40%ofone,
because Guyana pays the -other 60% and the 40% of
self-importance that we have to share in, the case
of Sir Lionel Luckhoo, ought to be enough. The O.A.S.
can do nothing. Its effectiveness has been destroyed
by the movements in Latin American politics farbe-
yond the comprehension of its founders and the
imagination of its founders. When O.A.S. was founded,
it was founded to usher in the era of the American
big stick and the American domination economic,
political and even physical of Latin America. Now
that the United States of America itself is retreating
from the days of the big stick and the good neighbour
policy alike, policies which were indeedthe same but
expressed in different language, now that the United
States is retreating from that, O.A.S. is stillholding
on. No doubt, O.A.S. will become more magnificent
than ever in its last days. Like the Venetian Repub-
lic, it will flourish on decadence and revel in cor-
ruption. The less power it has, the more style it will
put on; the less it can do effectively, I daresay the
more important will be the persons who become its
Secretaries General and Ambassadors to it.

As regards Barbados, O.A.S. can do nothing for
us and we can do nothing for O.A.S. We do not want
to join the O.A.S. peace keeping, and I am sure that
the Minister will be the first to agree that if there is
any trouble in Bolivia, Barbados' views will be of
less importance to what happens in Bolivia thanthey
are at present to what happens in Czechoslovakia. I
am sure that the Minister will agree that for all the
files which cross his desk, all he gets out of them is
a certain knowledge of Latin politicswhichhe did not
have before and which the Minister himself feels he
can well do without, unless lam mistaken. Weat-
tacked the O.A.S. at first on the basis of its being an
instrument for imperialism, among other things; I
am using extreme language in saying that. We do
not even have to attack it for that now. Time Maga-
zine is our authority, and Goodness knows, if there
is one thing that the Time Miami Bureau can be an
authority on, it is how the big stick is wielded over
the Latin American countries and along what par-
ticular tracks at any given moment the lines of power







2087


are running in Latin American politics. Time Maga-
zine dismisses the O.A.S. as nothing, and no United
States Secretary of State, for many years now, has
been such a hypocrite as to suggest not since the af-
fair of the Dominican Republic, that the O.A.S. has
any value or any use; but we are still here passing
Resolutions to buy a car and put a flag on it and buy
furniture of course, the furniture would have to be
bought anyhow and to appoint an Ambassador to
O.A.S. Let us look at somethingelse. These;are sup-
posed to be two separate things. I am sure that the
Minister will disabuse me of any ignorant ideas
which I may have on the subject, but I have never
heard of two Ambassadors under one roof and one
Ambassador directing another Ambassador.

I think that this point will be dealt with by the
Hon. Leader of the Opposition, but on the face of it
it seems to be madness. There are not only two
Ambassadors, but two Ministers. You can imagine
that the Foreign Service in Barbados has inits mind
that nothing can be done unequivocably. One person
is responsible, and he has one set of interests to
look after. In Washington, the Americans will not
have any question of Guyana and Barbados being
jointly represented. It is an irony that in these days
the diplomacy of the British ForeignOffice,whichwe
were all educated to believe in, was at the same time
the most devious and the most correct in its protoco-
lic procedures and most devious inits operations for
Great Britain. We have to see today that the de-
viousness gets it nowhere, and the attention to pro-
tocol is so far waived and abandoned that Sir Lionel
Luckhoo can represent two countries in London -
something which would never have been thought of
in the days of Lord Palmerston, for example.
9.30 p.m.

We cannot have Barbados and another country repre-
sented together at O.A.S. You have to have two people
riding in double harness, not with one driver but with
two drivers: with the Prime Minister driving one, and
with the Deputy Prime Minister driving the other.
What happens now, Mr. Chairman, when the Ambas-
sadors fall out in the Embassy? To whom do they
appeal? The Ambassador for O.A.S. appeals to the
Deputy Prime Minister, and the ordinary Ambassador
appeals to the Prime Minister. This is a case where
dualism has been carried right up to the level of
Ministerial responsibility.

Mr. Chairman, we may imagine that there may
not be such severe clashes between Prime Minister
and the Deputy Prime Minister, or, if there are, they
can be resolved in the Cabinet. Butinthe Washington
Embassy itself, the Ambassador wants X, and the
O.A.S. Ambassador wants Y. There are going to be
clashes, Mr. Chairman, even over when the Ambas-
sador should be in New York and when he should be
in Washington. I do not know who exactly isgoing to
be appointed Ambassador of the O.A.S. It is unfor-
tunate that protocol, presumably, will prevent the
ex-Senator Vaughan from being appointed Ambassa-
dor to O.A.S. I can think of no more appropriate
appointment. He was born in Haiti, I believe, and
Papa Doc is one of the Chief pillars of the O.A.S. to


this day, and who, Mr. Chairman, better to lead the
lame than the halt? Who better to guide the infirm
than the old? Who better to guide......

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, on a point of
order. I do not knowwhy itis the hon. member feels
that way about Ambassador Vaughan. To my mind,
and on any showing, he is a distinguished Barbadian.
Whether you agree with his appointment or not is a
different matter, but there is no need to sneer at
him.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I hear
a sotto voce remark that somebody on this side is
sneering at Ambassador Vaughan. Nobody on this
side is sneering at Ambassador Vaughan, Mr. Chair-
man; he is past sneering at. Anyway, Mr. Chairman,
I hope that they will find it possible to put Ambassa-
dor Vaughan where he can do even less harm by send-
ing him to be Ambassador of the O.A.S. Give him
ample opportunity to research whatever book he is
at present failing to write.

Mr. Chairman, so far as Furniture and Equip-
ment for Embassy is concerned, I was not in the
House when $54,000 if that figure is right, was voted
to redecorate a house in New York for Ambassador
Vaughan. I do not know if that includes the provision
of invalid chairs, or what the $54,000 is to be spent
on. It appears that Barbados is determined to create
palaces in the United States. Furniture and Equip-
ment for an Embassy, Mr. Chairman must cost
$38,0007 If the Minister would put $38,000 inmy hand
and tell me to go to London at Christie's, I would
furnish an Embassy with Seretse Khama furniture for
that. Where is this kindofmoneyintendedto be spent
for furnishing Embassies?

Mr. Chairman, you can go in the Park Bennett
galleries in New York and furnish a salon with fur-
niture that Louis XV slept on for the kind of money
that I see the Barbados Government is prepared to
spend. A house that costs $75,000, and furniture
nearly as expensive as the house? What is this? Mr.
Chairman, one knows that furniture can cost money;
one knows that decorations can cost money, but we
are not having a gold-plated bed. Even gold-plated
beds do not cost that amount of money. I remember
when they showed the gold-plated beds that Mr.
Krobo Edusei's wife bought to put inher London flat,
but even that only cost L1,500. Well, if you gave the
Ambassador four gold-plated beds you still would not
reach $38,000. Those gold-plated beds had television
sets; they woke you up on mornings, and made your
morning tea for you as well. Is this the scale of op-
erations we are contemplating for poor, little Bar-
bados's Diplomatic Services abroad?


Mr. Chairman, all this means when the Resolu-
tion says that no more money is actually going to be
spent than is voted I take it that paragraph 2 of the
Addendum will be regarded by the responsible Ac-
counting Officers as a guide to how they may spend
the money, and we are expecting to see money re-
turned to the Treasury under Item 59A.







2088


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I ought to have said that this
was already a directive of the Ministry of Finance in
this respect.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: When we see next
Year's Estimates, there will be no questionof spend-
ing this and the $270,000 or whatever Washington
fancies and Washington follies may exist for the be-
guiling of Barbados' Diplomatic Representatives
there. I take it that thatwillbe so; but, nevertheless,
Mr. Chairman, these are formidable sums with
which we are dealing. We talk about the purchase of
a motor car for the O.A.S. Ambassador on his of-
ficial duties. What official duties does the O.A.S.
Ambassador have? Is this intended to open the door
for buying a motor car for the Prime Minister? Are
we now to hear that Sir Lionel Luckhoo has a motor
car, the O.A.S. Ambassador has a motor car and,
therefore, the Prime Minister must have a motor
car? How many official duties does the Ambassa-
dor of the O.A.S. have to discharge duringthe course
of a week? The O.A.S. has not been summoned to deal
with anything since the Dominican crisis. It could
very well be last year, but I remember some litera-
ture that was circulated from the American Embassy
which I got a copy of.

The O.A.S. has no official duties. It is only a de-
votion to tradition that keeps the O.A.S. going. Or-
ganisatlons carry on under their own inertia. After
the war started in 1939 the League of Nations con-
tinued to meet; I believe itwent right up to December,
1940. They were still Ambassadors to the League of
Nations, and nobody ever told them that there was a
war going on. The 1939-45 war was never discussed
at the League of Nations at all, although it was still
in existence. I believe it continued in a theoretical
existence up to 1945. The O.A.S. is like that, Mr.
Chairman. It is a 'nothing' organisation, continuing
so that the permanent officials can work out the time
for their pensions without the intervention of anybody
who, perhaps, wants to get ridofthem. They are for-
tunate in that they do not have the Ministers of the
Government of Barbados to deal with.
Mr. Speaker, we should not be spending time,
energy and thought and giving considerationto O.A.S.
It was a foolish waste of time, and I think that the
Opposition even wasted too much time talking about
it, because it is proving itself to be negligible and
meaningless. It is something that Barbados could
have done without, not only because it was theoreti-
cally undesirable, but because it was actuallymean-
ingless.
9.40 p.m.
I think this is a very unfortunate Resolution, Mr.
Chairman, and if it is to be supported, it should be
supported only on the grounds that it is not calling for
more money to be spent. It is in fact tying the hands of
those who are doing the spendingby making sure that
they only spend it in particular directions; and now
that we see how foolish the directions are,we will
be able to argue with the Estimates Committee all
the more successfully against the continuance of this
foolishness next year when the Estimates come up
for presentation.


Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I do not
mean offence by what I am going to say, but it seems
to me almost useless to speak on this Resolution, be-
cause while I am not pretending that I am an expert
on this subject, I have certainly since therewas talk
about the possibility of our joining O.A.S. collected
every single thing that I have come across written -
information bulletins, newspapers and so on about
O.A.S.; and what amazes me and this is going to
lead me to what I said just now about saying things
without offence is that if hon. members on both
sides of this House knew how little value the O.A.S.
is, before Barbados came in, to the South American
Nations and how little they think of it, the Govern-
ment would be persuaded by their ourfollowers even
to see that the more we forget the O.A.S., the less
we do anything to show that we are glad we joined the
O.A.S., the better it is for us. Read what the South
American States themselves at the last Conference
of O.A.S. members told the UnitedStates of America.
I repeat, I am no expert, butIhave certainly cut out
everything I have seen in writing.

I get, as I presume many hon. members get, the
United States Information Service Bulletins. I have
been getting them for years. Some of them I have
never opened in the past, but everyone nowadays I
do with the hope of seeing more and more about the
O.A.S. No human being who makes any attempt to
study the lack of usefulness of the O.A.S. could feel
proud to think that he is in Barbados concerning him-
self about O.A.S. matters. Apart from the questionof
prestige which is stupid in a poor Island like Barbados
there is not the slightest justification for our remem-
bering even the existence of O.A.S., let alone that we
are member. Some of us are members of all sorts of
organizations, honorary members sometimes, and
sometimes we pay subscriptions largely because we
find ourselves in a position where we are expected to
join, but we in our heart of hearts know it is a waste
of time even remembering the existence of these
places. There is no justification, however much you
may say that it is in accordance with O.A.S. tradition
and practice.

I would like to ask the Leaderofthe House whe-
ther at any time the O.A.S. have reminded Barbados
that there are certain things it should do according
to their practice and tradition. I repeat, if hon. mem-
bers could spare the time I do not blame them if
they do not make it a special duty to learn something
about the O.A.S., they would see that it is not worth
wasting time on, and I would suggest to the Govern-
ment to forget that they belong to the O.A.S. Let me
ask the Governa.ent whether there is the slightest
real benefit that they expect from the O.A.S. I have
spoken to members of the O.A.S. abroad, and one at
least expressed surprise to think that Barbados whose
tradition and practice, if you like, are completely
non-Latin American, and is just the reverse of Latin
America, let alone the commercial aspect of it,
should join, in that even if our culture is different
from theirs, at any rate we have no trade with them.
We have not got trade even with Venezuela as near
as it is. We have no trade, no cultural contact, no
anything with Latin America. We are in it, and there-







2089


fore we have to admit that we are in it; but I suggest
in the strongest possible language that Bolivia itself -
I can speak only of two, Bolivia and Chile I do not
remember if Argentine but I think Paraguay asked the
Americans to their face what earthly good theywere
to them, what were they getting out of O.A.S. Why
should Barbados even remember that they belong to
the O.A.S.? I am not goingto say much more. While I
am prepared, and I am not going to say much more
for this selfish reason, to sit here until 3 o'clock or
4 o'clock in the morning rather than come back next
week on the other hand, I do not know what other
members of the Opposition feel but if we can finish
the work we have before us, we can speak, not mak-
ing long speeches and finish the work; otherwise we
might have a lot more to say about O.A.S.; but I ask
hon. members to try and make a time, seeing that
we are in it, to readwhat the Latin Americans them-
selves think of the O.A.S. They are satellites of
America when it comes to military matters, but they
themselves are asking the United States what they are
getting out of this. We might just as well join some
middle east cultural organisation for what good it
would do to us here in Barbados. There is no reason
whatever for having gone into it and havinggone into
it, I cannot criticise our entry as if we were not in;
but let us forget as much as we can that we are in
anything to do with the O.A.S. Any excuse can serve
us for saving money and not sending off people to any
particular conference or anything the O.A.S. may
have.

On this point about not criticising a Billwhich is
passed, I would just like to reply specifically and in
the politest and strongest language I can make to, I
believe, an article or broadcast made by the Leader
of the House. I neither read the article nor heard the
broadcast, but had been told about it. I made some
reference to the fact that we have enteredthe O.A.S.
without debating the matter in the House, and in that
style of his which does not really bear examination,
the Leader of the House, I am told, replied that I
was wrong, that it was raised in the debate of the
Reply to the Queen's Speech and therefore it was a
matter which the House debated. Absolutely untrue.
I was fidgety as to whether the Speaker would say
that the O.A.S. was not a matter for debate then.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, on a point of
order, I have here before me a copy of the Speech
from the Throne delivered on Independence Day in
1966 and the penultimate paragraph on page 3 reads
as follows:-

"My Government will in particular strive to
maintain the most harmonious relations with its
neighbours in the democratic countries of the Wes-
tern Hemisphere and is actively pursuing its long
declared goal of membership of the Organisation of
American States."

In the course of the debate the hon. member used
some of the criticisms which he is again raising and I
replied. If he is going to say it was never debated in
this House in the face of this evidence, I would not
be able to answer it.


Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am glad the hon.
member read that that this Government would be
maintaining ties and so onwith democratic countries.
What democratic country exists in South America
from Venezuela down to the bottom of South Ameri-
ca? Do not use that as an excuse. They do not pretend
to be; they sneer at democracy just as Russia thinks
she had a perfect right from her point of view and
from the point of view of what you may call absolute
Communism to walk into Czechoslovakia, though any
ordinary human being would say it is a disgrace and
a crime. Does the hon. member forget that after His
Honour the Speaker had allowed the reading of my
Resolution attacking the Prime Minister for his re-
marks, he said that before he would bringthe O.A.S.
to the House of Assembly, he would carry it to a
whorehouse? Does he forget that?
9.50 p.m.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: That is not true; but even if
it were so, it would not affect the issue because the
very first thing that came before the House when
Parliament was opened was the Speech from the
Throne; and it is in the Speech from the Throne that
the Government declared its intention to join the
O.A.S. Therefore, Parliament was the first to know.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: It is one thing to say
that we intend to do this and we intend to do that; but
when it comes to a debate on the floor of this House
as to whether it should be done or not, that never
took place.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: If at the same time the House
does not divide on the Speech from the Throne, is this
not indicative of the intention?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Only the hon. member
could put up such a specious argument, if it can be
called an argument. You state in the Speech from the
Throne that you intend to do so-and-so. The Opposi-
tion thanks the Governor-General for the Speech, but
does that mean that you agree with it? By definition
you do not agree with it. You thank them for saying
what they have said and what they have promised to
do, but have you told them to go and do it? I am say-
ing that it is just like a Manifesto; you put in your
Manifesto what Party you belong to and what you in-
tend to do. You get elected and then you make a
speech at the opening of Parliament as to what you
intend to do. You do not necessarily do all the things
you set out in your Manifesto or in the Speech from
the Throne. If that were so, we would know whether
we are going to have single-member constituencies
or not. You have passed anActandyou have not done
it. The House which was elected in1961was to die in
1964 and so on. It is absolutely specious for the hon.
member to say that because we said "thanks" for
the Speech from the Throne, we approved of going
into the O.A.S. when we were constantly saying out-
side the walls of this building that we do not agree
about going into the O.A.S.

After the notice of the Resolution was given, His
Honour the Speaker I am sorry that he is not now
in the Chair that I could say it to his face weakly







2090


and characteristically listened to the absurd talk by
Sthe hon. member and then withdrew his permission,
so to speak, when the hon. membergotup and asked:
"Is this in order?" The hon. member said: "I am not
questioning the right of the Hon. Leader of the Op-
position to give notice of this Resolution orto put this
Resolution before the House, but I should like Your
Honour to rule whether it is inorderfor him to bring
up a matter which apparently was not raised on the
floor of this House but said elsewhere." And His
Honour weakly, and, I repeat, characteristically, in
one of those exhibitions which he gives from time to
time, after I had read the Resolution and he had
passed it, changed his mind and said that it was not
in order. I have that in store for him in a later de-
bate after what has happened in here today. We are
going to drift to nothing. We are going to fall from
being the most respected Parliament in the West In-
dies to being the least respected Parliament because
we are drifting and drifting, forgetting Standing Or-
ders, forgetting Rules and seeing some of the worst
misbehaviour that could be seen in any Parliament in
the West Indies. It is a tragedy to people like my
colleague from St. Joseph, His Honour the Speaker,
the Minister of Health or myself to see how we have
fallen from the days when we first came into the
House.


I repeat that this House has nevervotedwhether
to go into or not to go into the O.A.S., and if the hon.
member defends it, that is another example of the
dictatorship which has settled down in this Island,
and it is getting worse. "We have the numbers and
it does not matter what they think or what they say.
They can talk all night, but we will out-vote them."
You do such a serious thing as to join an Organisa-
tion which is alien completely to your life, your
thoughts, your country and everything without a de-
batel It sets an example for those hot heads who call
themselves the Black Star people to do the same
thing if, God forbid, a calamity of this sort should
ever fall on this island; but it may not be as bad a
calamity as having an out-and-out CommunistOrga-
nization running this Island. But suppose, God again
forbid, the results of the election meant the neces-
sity for a Co-alition and you had to take people like
that inI There is not much difference, if any, be-
tween Extreme Right and Extreme Left. The dicta-
torship which exists in this Island now is as bad in
its effects as if it were a Communist Government.
We come in here and debate; we are not told how
we are wrong; no arguments have been put up to show
that we are wrong; but hon. members sit down there -
look at them now, Mr. Chairman half asleep. (Hon.
J. C. TUDOR: You sent them to sleep.) They started
to sleep when the Hon. Leader of the House was on
his legs. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest to the Hon.
Leader of the House not to try repartee with hon.
members on this side because they may remind him
of one or two things of which he will be ashamed. If
he keeps still and lets hon. members on this side of
the House have their say and then replies appropri-
ately, I think he would do better.
The point I am makings this; do not let us make
the mistake of thinking I am not putting it merely


on the question of dollars and cents that we ever
had anything to gain by being intheO.A.S. and there-
fore if we see how the people who are in it and who
have most to gain and who fondly still expect from
the United States more than what they are getting, if
we, who only remotely even the Prime Minister
himself has said that we will be watching to see
whether Barbados would gain anything from being a
member.
10.00 p.m.

It is pure prestige. We are independent, and
one must have an Embassy inWashington. Of course,
that can be excused. Naturally, the United States be-
ing as great as it is, obviously, you will want to have
an Embassy in Washington. But because there are
other independent organizations in the world that in-
dependent nations belong to, we being independent -
must we forget that we are a tiny rock in the ocean?
Prestige, prestige, with what money? Meanwhile the
money that could be spent on Primary Schools when
we have another discussion inwhich education comes
up, I will remind the ex- not the ex-Minister, be-
cause he did nothing, but the present Minister of
Education of what he said about the necessity of
Primary Education being a priority. That is by the
way.

I will also echo the words of the senior member
for St. Thomas: it is utter uselessness. We are en-
titled to draw to the attention of the Government we
have no say in making appointments, but we have to
draw to the attention of the Government the impres-
sion that some of the appointments may give to the
outside world. Hon. members on the other side are
not going to admit it, but the most useless person that
could have been appointed as Ambassador in Wash-
ington was the ex-Senator Vaughan. As I have des-
cribed him, and as hon. members have heardme, he
is a poet. He was called to the Bar, but nobody who
ever practised with him could call him a lawyer.
(Interruption) I have broken some Standing Order,
presumably.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, the hon. mem-
ber may not have broken a Standing Order, but why
pursue an old, political enmity? I would have thought
that if there were any battles that had been fought
between the hon. member and ex-Senator Vaughan,
they were fought before the rest of us came into this
House. You cannot fight your political battles over
again. If the man is Ambassador now representing
his country abroad, why denigrate him here?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I am
saying not to make the mistake of spending money that
would not enhance the name of Barbados. Mr. Vaughan
is a distinguished!English scholar, a poet from his
school days. All of that is true, but that does not
make him an Ambassador. I have the greatest re-
spect for Mr. Vaughan's knowledge of the English
language and English Literature and his skill. He is
one of the greatest punsters I have ever met; his
language .is at his fingertips and not merely the tip
of his tongue; but that does not make him a fit am-
bassador. All I am suggesting to the Leader of the
House is not to make mistakes by spending money







2091


on these people who do not enhance the formerly good
name of Barbados. When you are selecting some-
body to be this, that and the other, do not select him
because he is a "Dem". You do not take a good can-
vasser and make him the Head of the Development
Corporation when he is unfitted for the job.

Now that there is so much in the air, apart from
what appears in this Resolution, as regards possible
appointments, do not let us make the mistake, for
prestige purposes, of finding some other independent
country to which you can send anAmbassador. I sug-
gest, Mr. Chairman, that the Leaderof the House and
the Prime Minister take criticisms in this House as
coming from us because we honestly feel, in the in-
terest of the country, we should make these criticisms.

When the hon. member talks about attacking a
political opponent, as the hon. senior member for St.
Thomas has said, Ambassador Vaughan is beyond
sneering at. None of us who really know him would
waste time sneering at him. He is just there, and the
Government itself as I have often hadto say, there
is not much that takes place in Cabinet meetings that
does not leak out feels that way about Ambassador
Vaughan.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, itwould pro-
bably be a waste of time to have this kind of argu-
ment, but, in order that there will be no mistake
about the high esteem in whichwe hold a former col-
league, I want to deny just the last remark the hon.
member made. I deny it categorically.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: The hon. member de-
nies it, and the hon. member knows what I think of
his denials, or his assertions. Does the hon. mem-
ber forget why we had to discuss the Marketing Cor-
poration today and not last Tuesday? It is because
he made one of those stupid blunders over some-
thing which two of us on the floor could refute. I
Swill say no more. I repeat though that I have the
highest respect for Mr. Vaughan's ability as a stu-
dent and a Master of English, but that is a different
matter from what we are discussing here. I end as I
began. I am sorry that Ihave spoken so long, because
I want us to finish everything we have to do and have
the recess as from tonight. Examine as thoroughly as
is possible what the O.A.S. means, what it is today,
what is thought of it by its members, and forget, as
a result of your examinations, that it exists.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I do not think
that I need detain the House too long in replying to
the hon. member, mostly because the burden of what
he said was earlier andbetter said by the hon. senior
member for St. Thomas. Let us look at it this way.
Obviously it would be a good thing, Mr. Chairman,
if all the political parties in a country could agree
on the country's foreign policy, and on its international
alignments. This would be an ideal thing, because
a common outlook in the prosecution of a coun-
try's foreign policy is a very heartening and streng-
thening thing in a country. But you cannot always have
the ideal situation. Political parties will have dif-
ferent outlooks and attitudes towards the conduct of


international affairs and, therefore, when they do
differ the most they should do is to hope to differ
in good faith.

I am going to be charitable enough to my side
of the argument and, obviously, therefore to the other
side, to say that I believe that this difference of
opinion and this aspect of this country's foreign policy
is a genuine difference. We are intheO.A.S., and you
think the country should not be. AllIwould ask of the
Opposition is we would not ask them to stop saying
that we should not be in the O.AS., but to say un-
equivocally and categorically that if and when they
have the Government they will withdraw this country
out of O.A.S. and seek different international align-
ment. Let the difference of opinion be clear cut. It is
not enough to say that they think so little of O.A.S.
that they would not bother to continue to tell us that
we should not be in it. They should be able to say to
the people of this country that for certain reasons
which we can put before you, we believe that this
alignment is wrong.
10.10 p.m.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On a point of order,
surely it is absolutely the height of illogic to say that
you have to seek a different international alignment
if you do not want to join the O.A.S. The views of the
Opposition would be seriously misrepresented, and as
one of the speakers, Mr. Chairman, this is why I am
objecting, if any such remarks were allowed to go un-
contradicted.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR; The hon. member is quite
right. You can seek a different one or none; you are
not bound to have any, although it is difficult to see
in the world of the Twentieth Century how an inde-
pendent country could have no international align-
ments. I do not know how this could be, but it is
certainly possible intheory. (Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS:
What about Canada?) The whole point is this: you
are perfectly at liberty to tell the country that if you
had the running of the foreign policy in your hands,
you would not join O.A.S., or having found the country
in it, you would take the country out; and you would
be perfectly in order further to say to the country
that you are either not having any such alighments or
you are having alignments of a different kind. Now
this I can understand. What I cannot understand, Mr.
Chairman, is this: in order to criticise us for being
in O.A.S., it seems to me very unnecessary to talk
about how moribund an organisation it is, because this
could equally be true viewed from a certain point
of view of the United Nations, of NATO, of every
conceivable international alignment or organisation
that there is. This could be true of any according
to your point of view, and there are members......


Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On point of order, how
can the Minister talk about NATO, an organisation
with sixteen divisions and a ground-equipped force
with a substantial nuclear armoury for the purpose
of defending Europe as being in the same class as
O.A.S.? NATO is an active organisation where sol-
diers march every day, all day with atomic bombs







2092


for the purpose of defence; sohow couldhe conceiv-
ably compare that to O.A.S.?

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I deem that not to be a point of
order.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Obviously the hon. member
has not been reading the recent comments of the West
German Government. You can make that kind of re-
mark against any conceivable international organisa-
tion according to whether you think it is serving a
particular set of interests or not.

The third point I want to make is this: it goes
with ill grace for anybody in this House particularly
in this kind of debate to seize this opportunity to
denigrate the country's representative. I feel that if
I am in public life andl am an elected member of this
House, anything hon. members opposite say of me,
however untrue or unpalatable it may be, I am en-
titled to take and bear it evenwithout resentment, be-
cause I feel that if you will to be elected, you must
will the consequences of being elected, because we
are all politicians; we are all in the rough and tum-
ble of Party strife. But if a man is outside of the
political game and he is not offending anybody in this
House, he is not offending hon. members opposite or
on this side, why go to the trouble to make remarks
about him? I feel the two hon. members opposite who
have spoken have more intellectual equipment at their
disposal than a lot of other people have, and therefore
they can deal with these matters without putting that
kind of plant on it. Criticise our foreign policy; cri-
ticise, if you call it that, our lavish expenditure and
say that we ought not to be so extravagant, but there
is no need to talk about the Ambassador never being
a lawyer and that sort of thing, because it is untrue
about him and unworthy of the person who speaks it.
The question that the Resolution for the sum of $112,170
do now pass was put and resolved in the affirmative without
division.
SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 1968-69 No. 26

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I want to
make one comment before I go any further. The Ad-
dendum to this Resolution, which I believe hon. mem-
bers will agree, is the fullest accompanying a
Resolution they have seen for quite some time, con-
tains exactly the same quantum of information as
went before the Cabinet, and although I do not like to
take credit for certain things, I must tell the House
that I particularly insisted that the Addendum should
be set out in this way, because Iwanted the Commit-
tee to have at its disposal exactly the same wealth of
information which the Cabinet had.

There are one or two points, however, which I
think ought to be added to what is here, because I am
sure hon. members would be interestedinhearingit.
First they would like to know that the revenue this
year from the School Meals Service is in the vicinity
of $90,000. This is the contributionwhich the children
pay for the meals. Secondly, the cost per head to
produce the meal has gone down from 50 cents, as
it was when the scheme started, to about 24 cents or


25 cents now. This has been due to two factors: one,
the natural economies which are possible as the
scheme becomes bigger; and two, the growing ex-
pertise in preventing waste as well as in purchasing;
and the third point, of course, responsible for the de-
creasing cost is that within the last year, from July
last year, we began to receive shipments of food
from the World Food Programme which have proved
very helpful in the administration of this scheme.
Hon. members will remember that in 1966we signed
an agreement with the World Food Programme cover-
ing a three-year period for the receipt of foodstuffs
valued, I believe, at nearly $600,000. So that roughly
speaking, we receive nearly $200,000 worth of food-
stuffs every year.

All this food, of course, is not in all of the ca-
tegories that we would require for the service, but
flour, dried fruit, butter, cheese, a certain amount of
cooking fats, and one or two other things do come,
and these can be used, and consequently it is ex-
pected that there will be considerable savings in the
vote on purchases at the end of this financial year. I
feel the House would like to know this.

To summarise, up to now thirty-six Primary
Schools are being served in nine parishes. This new
extension will put on another thirty-six, to give a
total of seventy-two schools out of 126. I expect hon.
members will wish to draw the Committee's attention
to the fact that in some parishes all schools are in the
scheme and in other parishes not all, and in some only
one or two. I wishto assure the Committee that there
is no need for alarm in this.
10.20 p.m.


This is to be onthebasis of how the extension
is planned. For instance, you will notice, to quote a
case in point, that in this new proposed extension,
four schools in St. Lucy are proposed and two al-
ready have it. Somebody might ask why is it that if
there are only seven schools, you deal with six and
leave out Half Moon Fort? The reasonforthat is this;
it is planned in the next extension to establish a
central kitchen somewhere in the Speightstown area
to deal with the other St. Peter schools, the Half
Moon Fort School and the other St. James schools
which are not yet within the Scheme. This, I think,
will be the reason in all of the cases. It is not an ar-
bitrary system; it is not a capricious system; the
extension is to be planned according to the routes,
according to the availability of the transport and
perhaps more than not, according to whether or not
you can easily get a site for a central kitchen. I think
that, all in all, that will be the case by the beginning
of next term when this new extension takes place. To
be able to service 72 schools out of 126 is not bad
going at all, and I myself would think it perfectly
conceivable that in another 18 months or two years,
we shall be able to cover allof the Primary Schools,
and perhaps start to turn attention to the Secondary
Schools. As I say, I cannot anticipate what other
questions will be asked in addition to the points
raised in the Addendum to the Resolution, and I will
therefore hold myself in readiness to answer any








2093


other matters raised in the course of discussion. I
beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.


Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, even if
I were not one of the representatives of St. Joseph,
it would strike me, as doubtless it must have struck
other hon. members if they have read this, that
there must be extraordinary reasons for having one
school only with meals at present andno provision is
made for any other school in St. Joseph, and St.
Joseph is the only parish to which that applies. At
present, there is one school in St. Joseph and one in
St. Andrew no more; but under the new provision,
St. Andrew is getting six more, and St. Joseph not
anything more. What defence is there for that? I
know a reason which could have operated in the minds
of those who did this, but what possible defence could
there be for having only one school in any parish, St.
Joseph or otherwise, and no provision is now made
for it in the addition? You only have to read that and
even the least fair-minded man in this world would
ask why that is so. What justification is there for
it? Can the Hon. Leader of the House say that they
went into the question of other schools? St. Andrew
and St. Joseph are on a par eachwith only one. Pre-
sumably, they went into St. Andrew and made a proper
examination and said: "We should have Bawdens,
Chalky Mount and so on." Did they do the same thing
in St. Joseph and say that itwas not necessary, "these
children look so well-fed; their parents are so much
better off than others in other parishes and we can
leave out St. Joseph altogether"? Mr. Chairman, I
have a lot more to say, but I would like the Hon.
Leader of the House to answer that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I should like firstly
to say how pleased I am at the detail that there is in
the Addendum to this Resolution. I understand the
Hon. Leader of the House to say that he gave instruc-
tions that we should be given the fullest information
possible, and I look forward to his giving similar
instructions in the future. I feel that the Civil Ser-
vant who prepared this Addendum went all out to give
us as full information as he possibly could; however,
there are a few things here which must arrest our
attention. I learned from the Hon. Leader of the
House that the Schools are being servedonthe basis
of how the extension is planned. Would really like to
hear from the Minister how it is really planned. For
instance, you find that in a parish like St. Andrew,
there are 1,769 children attending Primary Schools;
it happens that, in St. Andrew, the Government holds
two seats and all the children in St. Andrew are
being fed. The Civil Servant who prepared this Adden-
dum here had to act on instructions received. This
Cabinet, no doubt, took the decision as to which
schools must be attended to now, which must never
be attended to and which others must wait. As I said,
Sir, in St. Andrew there are 1,769 children at about
seven schools, and all of these schools are now to
be served.

In St. George, the Democratic Labour Partyholds
two seats: there are ten schools with 3,265 children


and all the schools in St. George are to be served.
In St. Philip, there are 3,170 attending the Schools;
there are 13 schools and all of these schools are to
be served, and the Democratic Labour Party holds
two seats in St. Philip.
10.30 p.m.

In the parish of St. John there are 7 schools with
2,054 children. The Democratic Labour Party holds
two seats in St. John, and all of those schools are
being served. The Leader of the Opposition has al-
ready drawn attention to the case of St. Joseph.
There are 1,363 children attending school in St.
Joseph. One School, St. Ann's Primary, is being
served, and only 334 children out of a school popu-
lation of 1,363 children in St. Joseph are going to be
fed.

Now, we heard the Minister make reference to
the parish of St. Lucyqn St. Lucythere is one school
that will not be served presently, and the school
happens to be one that is near the St. Peter border,
the Half Moon Fort Primary with 274 children. But
St. Clement's Senior and St. Clement's Junior, the
two schools have 552 children. St. Lucy's Senior
has 413; St. Lucy's Junior has 359; St. Swithins'
Primary has 116, and Senior Primary has 281. The
children at all of those schools are going to be fed.

In St. George where there are 3,265 children
all of the schools in St. George are going to be fed.
In St. James they are going to feed the St. John the
Baptist Boys' with 476 children, and St. John the
Baptist Girls' with 208 children, out of total school
population for that parish of 2,608 children in 10
schools.

In St. Michael there is feeding at Buxton Pri-
mary with 361 children; Carrington's Primary with
282 children; Deacon's Primary with 752 children;
Eagle Hall Infants' with 455 children; Grace Hill
Primary with 618 children; Roebuck Primary with
573 children; Westbury Junior with 770 children;
and Westbury Infants' with 376 children. There are
about twenty-eight schools in St. Michael, and one
would understand and appreciate the reasonwhyyou
cannot feed all 28 schools in St. Michaelbecause, as
some people say, it would look too bad.

However, in St. Peter a mere 476 children at-
tending Boscobelle Boys' and Boscobelle Girls' will
be served out of a total school population of 2,562
children. The 7 schools in St. Thomas will now be
fed. We are not going to complain about anything
there, but there is something which shows its head
in the selection of these schools. We cannot accept
it from the Minister that it is done on the basis of
how extension is planned. The planning is really done
by the Minister of Education, but the Leader of the
House we know that the question of School Meals
is his pet subject.

Mr. Chairman, there are a few matters towhich
I would like to make some reference. With the exten-
sion of this programme, undoubtedly, the adminis-
trative end of it must be considerably increased. I








2094


sincerely hope to see the day when the School Meals
Programme is under the control of. some special
officer who has an interest in the Scheme and an in-
terest in children; above all, an officer who is de-
voted and sincere about what he is doing. For the
Scheme to succeed, we must know that itwill call for
considerable co-operation from all the workers
concerned.

Mr. Chairman, in the feeding of these children
one has to take into consideration if the Government
is giving any consideration whatsoever to having, let
us say, these children receive any sort of medical
examination from time to time. In dieting in any
institution, and dieting on a Scheme as large as this
one, and particularly in dieting little children, I am
sure that doctors would recommend that there should
be a skeleton Nursing Staff whowouldweighthe chil-
dren, from time to time, to seewhetherthe children
are benefiting from the feeding to any considerable
extent; if some children are eating more than others
or, perhaps, are eating much more than they should
eat at times.
10.40 p.m.

There shoulder to my mind attached to these
schools medical Doctors and/or Nurses to watch
over the growth of the children. You might find, on
the other hand, that there are some children who
are eating much more than others, and still are not
developing as readily as they ought to, and in a
scheme such as this with the type of expanding ser-
vice, one would feel that it is not asking too much
to have that type of service attached to it.

Now I understand, Mr. Chairman, that in the ini-
tial stages of the launching of this scheme, either the
Minister or whoever was responsible at the time re-
cruited quite a number of helpers who were branded
as cooks. I have since learned that many of the
workers are not happy with being called or styled
"cooks", and it is notgood forthe scheme as a whole
because if a person is employed as a cook, you cannot
ask a cook to wash dishes or helpto peel vegetables
or anything of the kind, because the person can say
that she is a cook. Iunderstandthat there is a likeli-
hood of their being classified as School Meals As-
sistants, because when you employ a person as an
assistant, she would assist in getting the Scheme
running in perhaps more ways than one. I am particu-
lary glad to see that such things are likely to come
about.

I am sure that the Minister would know that at
the newly built Good Sheperd School in St. James, the
school is built on what we would call a plateau, and
there is an areaof landwhich looks to me to be more
than an acre that could be available. If you are going
to have an expanding School Meals Scheme, I feel
that some use could be made of it in providing a sort
of central kitchen. You have quite enough playing
field, and I feel that if you set up a central kitchen
there, it could be used as training ground for maids
and others who would be employed. There could also
be a supply scheme going from there to the hotels


in the area, rather than having to draft them from
other far-flung parishes. I do not know what might
be Government's plans in this respect, but evidently
establishing a Domestic Science Centre there, would
be very good indeed; but in the absence of that, Gov-
ernment might find it necessary to set up another
school on the site, because we very well know that
overcrowding is a problem at every school, whether
you build it today or tomorrow. (Hon. J. C. TUDOR:
Not at Chalky Mount.) I understand the Minister to
say that there is no overcrowding at Chalky Mount.
The architecture,if architecture is somethingyou can
associate with Chalky Mount and Coleridge-Parry,
is very forbidding; so it is no wonder that children
keep far from these places.

However, I do not want to hold up the Resolution.
I see you intend to buy new vans for transporting
your meals, and I hope that your schedule will be
kept up-to-date and the meals arrive on time, because
there have been instances where the late arrival of
meals caused many a dislocation in the hours of
study, and I would not like to see that happening in
the future. I understand that to keep the School
Meals Programme going, inroads had to be made on
sums of money that had been voted for other pur-
poses. I do not.suppose the Minister would deny that
there was a time when money was available for the
purchasing of a van, but this was shelved because
there were other more they thought at the time-
pressing commitments in respect ofthe-rogramme,
and the moneywas usedto keepthe Programme going.
I understand that you are quite satisfied with your
supplies, but I see that you are comingdown to pur-
chase pieces of cold storage equipment and you are
to have some boiling pans, deep fat fryers and gas
ranges.

Mr. Chairman, I remember that, before this
scheme was launched, the thenMinisterofEducation
who is now Leader of the House and a lady officer
attached to his Ministry went to Puerto Rico, and I
thought they had an offer of a supply of utensils from
Puerto Rico. I think I remember correctly seeing
some samples that were brought back. I do not know
what shipments followed, if any, and Iwould really be
inclined to ask what has become of those utensils
which came to us from Puerto Rico; but I see that
there is now inthis expansion the necessity for added
pieces of equipment, and I sincerely hope that care
will be taken, because we cannot continue with its
being said that priority is given to the extension of
the School Meals Programme at the expense of pro-
viding class-rooms. When I look back to see that for
last year alone the revenue was something over
$92,000 in ten cent pieces, I know they are going
great, and I understand that already this year over
$50,000 have been collected in the same way.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: The hon. member says this
year, but it is really this term, from April to July.

Mr. HINDS: Yes from April, 1968. I heard the
Minister mention the World Food Programmne.
10.50 p.m.







2095


I understand that for the first time since you
have been receiving supplies from the World Food
Programme, I think that split peas came to Barba-
dos for this feeding. I understand that there is no
shortage of flour and that there is a likelihood of
something very near 100 tons of flour expected for
this year. There is such an organization as UNICEF,
and I am to wonder if we are not in a position to ex-
pect some sortof helpfrom UNICEFinrespect of this
equipment. That is, we are buying these boiling pans,
food containers, deep fat fryers, platform scales and
other equipment such as trays, cups, plates, dishes,
table -tops, washing facilities, tongs, scoops and pails,
and I am wondering if we cannot lookforward to re-
ceiving some of our equipment from UNICEF. If it
is a case where we have not asked for it or if it
would be necessary for some officer to come down
here to carry out a survey, whateveris necessary, I
think I am right in saying that UNICEF would make
available some equipment if we ask for it.

In respect of UNESCO, we are now an indepen-
dent nation, and my information is that if we were to
apply for membership of UNESCO,. we would have to
pay some subscription annually or on one occasion;
and I would be glad if the Minister could tell us what
that subscription would be and if he could give us some
idea as to what type of assistance we can look for
from UNESCO as time goes on. As you know, Sir,
this School Meals Programme has been costing
us money all along, despite the amount of help
which we have been getting from the World Food
Programme. We are now asked to vote $182,801 to
get this Scheme going, and we have got a lot of all
that is being spent in the Programme. If there are
possibilities of asking hard and therefore becoming
members of Organizations and benefiting from them,
not like joining the O.A.S., and getting help for the
children or somethinglike that,by all means we are all
for it; but we sincerely hope thatwe will not continue
to see the Scheme being managed or mismanaged in
the way we have found, that the children in various
parishes in other words, an attempt seems to be
made to punish the children, to visit the sins of the
parents on the children in this case, because it would
have been the parents who have voted for the Oppo-
sition, and it is in those parishes where the Opposi-
tion seems to have held sway at the last election
that the children in these parishes suffermost. That
is not fair to the children, and we sincerely hope
that the future conduct of the Programme will not be
visited by any such incidents as we see in the alloca-
tion of feeding.

Mr. Chairman, I do notwant to holdup the Reso-
lution at all, and I can give you an assurance that we,
on this side, will do nothing to delay the progress of
the Scheme, if we can call it progress. We hope that
in the case of this equipment here youwill buy equip-
ment on which there are guarantees, and that you
will see to it that the suppliers live up to the guaran-
tees. I understand that you have established quite
a number of bonds forth safety of the supplies which
you are getting. I think that, although you may have
some of your bonds in places like the Drill Hall and


the Government Industrial School at Summerville and
wherever else you might have them from time to
time, in addition to employing a nightwatchman, you
will still try to have your own day watchman on the
scene. That is very important. As things are going
now, we feel that the police would visit these bonds
at night, but still I am not feeling so happy to have
only one watchman on the scene with the way in
which as I say, things are going now. It would not be
too much, depending on the value, of the things which
you have in any particular bond, if you find it necessary
to double your watchman strength by night. Mr.
Chairman, I think that that is all I need say on this
Resolution.

Mr. HOPPIN: Mr. Chairman, at present the
School Meals Programme has been operating from
four schools, but it is proposed as set out here, to
open another one very soon which will bring the
number up to five. If the figures which were given
by the last Speaker are correct, as they seem to be,
those four Centres were catering to 36 schools of
course with a great number, but the other centres
will, along with the four Centres, be catering to
another 36 schools, which will entail, as I see it,
much more work, especially when we will be taking
up the whole of St. Philip which will be new ground
being covered, some more of Christ Church, some
more of St. Michael, St. Andrew, St. Peter and St.
Lucy. As the hon. introducer of the Resolution has
said, it appears that they can only get suitable places
at present for these Centres, and that is one of the
reasons why they have not been able to cover much
more of the Island aswouldbe expected. The Scheme
is avery good one, as can be seen by the children who
take it in the rural areas.
11.00 p.m.
The little children are willing; they enjoy their
meals, and you can see healthy children when they
walk along the roads. The fee of 100 is very small,
and it is rather heartening to hear that revenue in
the sum of $90,000 has been accumulated. I under-
stand that already the sum of $50,000 has been col-
lected in this financial year. I feel that when it has
been extended to the St. Philip area, which did not
have it before, we can look forward to a greater
majority of healthy children in this Island. This is
one of the planks of the Democratic Labour Party,
and it must be congratulated for it. It is regrettable
that the Programme cannot cover thewhole Island at
present, but you can see the results in some of the
children at present.

I remember the last speaker was asking aques-
tion about having the children examined to see whether
the food they are eating is paying off: in other words,
whether the children are enjoying it. I live in a coun-
try district, and I know that the children enjoy their
meals. I have heard of parents who are willing and
wishing that they could pay this 100 daily for their
children. I know that some parents are finding it a
bit difficult now that the schools are on vacation
to feed their children, and they are only hoping that
the -schools will soon be re-opened so that they can
give -their children this 100 to get this meal.








2096


When this Programme was first started, there
was a talk about what could be done with 104. I can
assure you that I have seen the meal; I have asked
some of the children who eat it what they think about
it, and they said that theirmotherswould not be able
to give them that quality of food for 100 that they
are now getting from the School Meals Programme.
I say that this is venture of the Democratic Labour
Party for which it must be congratulated, and it will
be continued. The Leader of the Opposition said that
St. Joseph has been left out, but St. Joseph has not
been left out. There is one school there, but as far
as I see it is the routing on which this School Meals
Programme has taken place. This Government has
decided that everybody will get, as even "Sparrow"
says. It is only a matter of time, and I do not think
that we would be so ungrateful as to leave St. Joseph
out.

Another matter arises about which I know. In one
particular Centre there is a great strainonthe per-
sonnel who have to take care of the schools being
served. So far, 36 schools have been served, and this
Centre alone caters for 18 schools. From the figures
given, at times this Centre prepares meals for4,000
children daily. That is a very heavy strain on the
staff; some of them have to work overtime without
being paid for it, but in the interest of the children
they are doing this work. I hope that some kind of
re-routing will take place, especially now that St.
Philip is expected to be open, and some of those
schools which come on the borderline between the
parishes can be shifted so that the strain at that
Centre will be relieved, or that more staff will be
employed to alleviate the burden on some of these
workers.

There is nothing more I would have to say on
this matter. I am verywell pleased to see the manner
in which things are going, and I hope that in the near
future we will see a further expansion of this School
Meals Programme for the benefit of the Children in
the Island of Barbados.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, with respect
to the points raised by the junior member for St.
Peter on UNICEF and UNESCO, I will have them
investigated, although my impression is that UNICEF
deals more with the pre-school children. I think we
have received milk andvitamins forthe under's and
under 5's from UNICEF. I am certainlyinterestedto
hear that something in this respect can be obtained
from UNESCO.I always understood that UNESCO dealt
more with the promotion of scholarships, scientific
training and that sort of thing. Anyhow, this can be
looked into. The hon. member did not ask, but he
made reference to a large amountof split peas. That
is true. Seventy thousand four hundred pounds is
stored at the Garrison. We have also received 801
cases of butter weighing in the aggregate about ten
tons or a little more -,24,030 lbs. (ASIDES). We have
received cheese, but I do not have the quantity here.

The big difficulty is this. Hon. members may have
heard that of the initial shipments which came last


year, we did lose-some through spoilage, particu-
larly flour, and I believe, cheese. This happened
because they arrived before we were physically able
to accommodate them, and also because the exper-
ience we now have we did not have before these
commodities arrived. For instance, what we try to
do now is so to space the requisitions that nothing
would come at the end of a term when you have it
eight or nine weeks, lying down there, doing nothing
and increasing the risk of spoilage. We are trying to
have the shipments so arranged that they come just
when needed, but at the same time to prevent things
from running out.

With regard to the point about taking care that
the fullest possible security is exercised so that
overseas help is not stolen, this point is well taken
and we are taking extra care about this. Now, the
only point made that I have to challenge is the accusa-
tion that there has been political finagling in the mat-
ter. This is not true; it looks that way, but it is not.
For instance, in order to 'start something in St.
Joseph and St. Ann's Primary School,we have to use
the Gun Hill Centre.
11.10 p.m.

The two Boscobelle schools are going to be fed
from St. Clements; the St. John the Baptist Schools
from Westbury, and naturally other St. Michael
Schools from Westbury. If for instance, we take St.
Philip and St. John, when St. Philip gets going and
we can service all the Christ Church and St. Philip
schools from one Centre, we might be able to take
St. John off into St. Philip, and allow St. George then
to do St. George, St. Thomas and St. Joseph. This is
how we want to do it. When a Centre is established
in Speightstown or in any appropriate part of St.
Peter, all the St. Peter schools and St. James Schools
will be done that way. It is a question of being really
able to establish a central kitchen, and not all schools
provide the kind of facilities; but this Government
would not be a party to that kind of political dis-
crimination. All the children of this Island belong to
the whole country, and ifwe couldnotwin an election
on our merits but would have to discriminate against
its children, we should be out of public life.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Does the hon. member
think anybody would swallow that? That is worse than
defending the omission of D'Oliveira. They say that
it had nothing to do with colourorwith South Africa,
but that he was not agoodbatsman. You say you have
not got a Centre from which to feed these other chil-
dren in St. Joseph, which is the same thing. When the
hon. member puts it down as a question of topogra-
phy, how do you get to Chalky Mount? I only wish to
thank the Government for yet another instance of go-
ing to show to people what small-minded menmem-
bers of the Government are. It is only an accident
apparently that St. Joseph is omitted St. Josephthat
started like St. Andrew with only one is the only par-
ish left out, and it is only an accident that St. Joseph
is represented by two members of the Barbados
Labour Party, two members of the Opposition. I am
glad 4br these things. I am storing them all up one







2097


by one, and just as no coloured man in this world is
going to believe the MCC's defence, so no fair-minded
man is going to believe this defence about St. Joseph.
How do you get to Chalky Mount, I ask, unless you
pass St. Bernard's, and why is not St. Bernard's
brought in?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: This much I know, Mr.
Chairman, that no school children were fed in the
Barbados Labour Party's time. He said itwould only
do for children in cold climate.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: That is characteris-
tic ..............

Mr. CHAIRMAN: On what is the hon. junior
member for St. Joseph speaking?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order, it
is too late for me to worry to take notice of inane
remarks like that as usual, distorted. Everything I
said about hot meals, I prefaced by saying the sim-
ple truth that we had been advised by our medical
officers not to do this, not to do that, but to do that.
Since then at election time or whenever the hon.
member cannot think of anything else, he says that I
said that hot meals were only for school children in
the North. Why I take notice of any remarks of the
hon. member beats me!

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Don't bother with him? Be-
cause I could remind him that Mr. Freddie Miller
said they would kick up all the pots and pans.

The question that the Resolution for the sum of $182,801
do now pass was put and resolved in the affirmative without
division.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 1968-69 No. 27

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I observe, as
I believe hon. members opposite will observe, that
the good example followed inthe Resolution we have
just passed has not precisely been followed in this
case, in that the Addendum is not particularly volu-
minous. However,I think I can summarize the position
of this Resolution as follows. This is a proposal to
award not more than 900 new bursaries tenable at the
approved independent schools. This arises thisway:
after the Grammar School intake, 2,884 pupils were
left over. Of these 1,860 are of the 11+age group
and would not have had another chance to sit the
common Entrance Examination again. Now of these
1,860, approximately 100 will receive Exhibitions to
the Independent Schools under the current Scheme,
that is to say, under the 1,500 scheme to the Approved
Independent Schools, and 800 will move over to the
Comprehensive Schools for which their own Schools
are the catchment areas. So this leaves approxi-
mately 900 who would be left without provision, and
it is for this amountforwhomwe are providing these
Scholarships. These Scholarships, according to the
preference of individual parents, will be tenable at
any of the sixteen Approved Independent Schools,
and there is sufficient provision not only to pay the
fees of $25 a term for the two terms of this finan-


cial year, but also to meet the cost of the subven-
tions which we give for Special studies, and of the
subventions which we give., for assistance with
teachers' salaries.

There is one point I want to make. Hon. mem-
bers who were members of the last Parliament will
recall that when we introduced this policy in 1965,
it was laid down in the White Paper that it would be
reviewed in five years. The Minister of Education,
however, thinks that the time has come after three
years for this review to be undertaken, and he is
*prepared to do this as from now. Here again I cannot
anticipate all the questions I may be asked, but I have
information if it is sought..

I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
11.20 p.m.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, this is a Resolution
dealing with the Independent Schools. Iwantto charge
the Government with being ignorant of what anInde-
pendent School in the terms of the Ministry of Edu-
cation really means. That is, I am charging the
Government with being ignorant in terms of what the
Ministry of Education says is an Independent School.
I want to say here and now that, according to the
Ministry of Education, every school in this Island
which is not Government-owned, every school that
prepares children for the G.C.E. "0" Level, and in
come cases Advanced Level, every such school is an
Independent School and also an Approved School. I
hope that by the time I am finished, the Hon. Leader
of the House will pass instructions to the Ministry
of Education to have each and every one of the Schools
which are now Independent Schools preparing pupils
for the G.C.E. "0" Level and Advanced Level de-
clared Approved Schools. I do not have to go far to
search for it. I have it right here in the Report pub-
lished by the Ministry of Education for the 1st Sep-
tember, 1960, to the 31st August, 1963. I do not
believe that the Ministry has got this copy yet, but I
have mine here.

Mr. Chairman, while I am on this point, I also
want to make out that free secondary education in
Barbados did not start in 1962 as the Hon. Leader of
the House and perhaps members of the Government
suppose. I am saying ,here andnowthat free second-
ary education was started in Barbados in the year
1949. I am not saying that it was started in 1949 on
the same scale that it was approached in 1962, but
the Report of the Ministry of Education to which I
have referred earlier, tells me that free secondary
education was started in Barbados in some schools
in the year 1949. Now, I was telling hon. members
just now that in this Report at paragraph 206 it
states that certain private schools are recognized
solely for the purpose of taking the General Certi-
ficate of Education; and the Report goes on to list
St. Winifreds, Codrington High School, the Ursuline
Convent, St. Gabriel's, Modern High School, Lynch's
Secondary School, Community High School, Washing-
ton High School, Seventh Day Adventist School, the








2098


Barbados Acadamy which is now out of it, the Federal
High School, Mapp's College and Presentation Col-
lege. One thing that the Report reveals is that in the
Government-aided schools, since 1961, there have
been more boys attending than girls, but inthe Inde-
pendent Schools, the private Schools andwhatwe call
the Senior Department Schools, the situation has
almost been the reverse; that is to say, there are
more girls attending those schools than there are
boys.

Mr. Chairman, this Report, in addition to telling
us what is necessary for the Government to approve a
school that is taking the General Certificate of Edu-
cation examination we know that these schools
approved by the Government take the Oxford and
Cambridge G.C.E., but those private schools which
have been denied approval take the G.C.E. of the
London University, and this very Report goes on to
point out that some of these private schools, they
tell us at paragraph 225, enter their pupils for Ad-
vanced Level subjects. You do not only have to enter
for "0" Level subjects; some of them are also
entering for Advanced Level subjects; and if all the
Government requires, according to this Report, is
that these private schools are recognized solely for
the purpose of taking the G.C.E. examination, then
every school in Barbados which is privately owned
and which enters pupils for the G.C.E. "0" Level
or "A" Level subjects is entitled, according to this
Report, to run up atthe doors of the Ministry of Edu-
cation as from tomorrow morning and demand their
approval. That is what this Report is saying. You will
find that this list which is given here of the Approved
Schools could be considerably enlarged upon. Quite a
number of them, we know, enter pupils for the "A"
Level as well as the "0" Level examinations,but this
is what we know; we know that when a school makes
application for approval, suchthings as the necessary
lavatory and the physical arrangements or buildings
are taken into consideration. On the other hand,when
we look at places like the West St. Joseph School,
which is a Government School, where the sanitary
arrangements are not or even near what they should
be, we are still to see that there are many schools
preparing pupils for these G.C.E. examinations that
are being denied their right to be approved, taking
all things into consideration.
11.30 p.m.

I would urge upon the Minister to see to it that
they are not denied that recognition any longer.

With regard to this same Report, paragraph 135
states:

"Education at the secondary stage is provided
in senior departments of Primary Schools, in the
Government Grammar Schools, Comprehensive
Schools, and in some Independent Schools."


It goes on:


"Education in the Government Schools is free."


Now since 1949, the Ministry of Education sup-
plied Headteachers with what is calledthe "Common
course". In that "Common Course", the curriculum
contained Latin, Spanish, French, Science Subjects,
and the reason why it was called the "Common
Course" is that it was for the Primary Schools with
senior departments, the Comprehensive Schools,
and the Government Secondary Schools. All of these
Schools used this "Common Course", andI am say-
ing that the "Common Course" has not been revoked,
repealed, nor has it been put out of use, as far as I
know, in any respect whatsoever.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I think the hon. member
should add to that: "nor has it ever been put into
execution".

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, this Report here is
telling the world that the former Minister of Educa-
tion did not know, while he was the Minister of Edu-
cation, nor has he learnt since not being Minister of
Education, what has been going on in his Primary
Schools in this Island. Mr. Chairman, I am asking
if the Minister wants this House to believe that, in
neither one of the 46 Primary Schools with senior
departments, no boy or girl has taken the G.C.E.?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: You will have to tell me
which one.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the
House was the Minister of Education, but while he
was Minister of Education he went about making all
speeches. The Report will show you, I hope. What is
wrong is this. This is aReportcoveringfrom the 1st
September, 1960, to the 31st August, 1963. This is
now 1968, and there has been no other Report pub-
lished. This is now being circulated, and no other
Report could be published since this. The Minister
knows, and I have drawn it to his attention already,
that at Ellerslie, Black Rock, there has been a teach-
er, a French Specialist, rusting out, while at the
same time some of the other Senior Department
Schools, like the Boscobelle Boys' andthe Boscobelle
Girls' in St. Peter, Black Bess in St. Peter, Speights-
town Boys' in St. Peter (Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Are
these Schools using the "Common Course"?) The
Speightstown Boys' School is there, and the Minister
ought to have had a sufficient interest in what is
going on in those Schools. It is not for me to tell the
Minister what he should know. All he has to do is to
read the Minister's Report.

Mr. Chairman, there are 46 schools with these
Senior Dep4rtments, and inthese 46 Schools children
have been prepared (ASIDES.) What is wrong with
the present Government is that in its propaganda
campaign it would like parents of childrento believe
that only education acquired in what are called the
Grammar Schools is an education that would lead
them to the Land of Hope and Glory. The Government
is not paying sufficient attention, and, if the Minis-
ter were to direct his attentiontowhatI am now say-
ing, it would relieve the Island for that matter, of
much of the trouble that we are having to get chil-
dren into these Grammar Schools.







2099


Mr. Chairman, what we need is there might
be a better title than calling them Primary Schools
with Senior Departments what is called a general
upgrading of these schools. You could then staff
them properly, and you will find that instead of a boy
having to leave Black Bess,or Boscobelle in St. Peter,
and journeying, perhaps, to Boys' Foundation in
Christ Church to get a secondary education, he would
understand that the same education is available to
him in the Senior Department School to which he was
attached.
11.40 p.m.

In this same paragraph youwill find that mention
is made that education in the Government Schools is
free; but the same Government that has these free
schools is the same Government that now finds it-
self paying $25 to private schools, and what is hap-
pening in many cases as in the case of Mapps Col-
lege, Presentation College and St. Winifred's School,
is that Government is paying $24 or $25, but then
the parents of these children have to look for more
than another $25 to putwith the $25 from Government
to get their children educated. We feel that it does
not make sense because in the days when education
at the Grammar Schools was paid for, I think I am
right in saying that in the First Grade Schools there
was a fee of $20 and $24 inthe Upper Forms, and in
the Second Grade Schools $8 and $12. What you will
find is that formerly where you paid $12, the Gov-
ernment has to put $13 with that to pay for children,
and in other cases the Government has to pay $17
for children.

What we are saying is that there is a definite
need for the upgrading of these 46 schoolswith Senior
Departments, and proper staffing of these schools,
and it would relieve the situation in avery consider-
able manner. Now this Report also tells us, Mr.
Chairman, that in respect of our Comprehensive
Schools they call them Secondary Comprehensive
Schools in this Report they are non-selective and
are doing justice to the needs of every pupil. In some
cases the Heads of those schools had tried various
ways and means of raising funds to effect the trans -
fer of bright and gifted pupils to the fee-paying Gram-
mar Schools prior to the abolition of the fee-paying
system; so that you will find Mr. Chairman, that I
have made it quite clearmerely by looking at the Re-
port of the Ministry of Education.

The Leader of the House said that this Common
Course had never been implemented. Ido notwant to
refer the Minister to this Report further to have him
cause any upset in the records. The Report tells us
here the number of pupils who had completed their
.Common Course; so if pupils were able to complete
it, then there should be an abundance of evidence
that they had started it; but we are concerning our-
selves with this amount of $75,000 to expand the pro-
gramme of assistance to Approved Independent
Secondary Schools. I want these schools that are
presently relieving the Government of this respon-
sibility to be adequately supported; Iwant at the same
time Government to start as from tomorrow seeking


out whether approval can be given to every school if
it is merely that you approve a school, as the Report
says, if it is writing the G.C.E.. You should examine
the results of some of the other private schools. I
do not even support the term "Independent Schools",
because the moment they are receiving a subvention
from Government, they cease to be Independent
Schools. In England and in the United States Inde-
pendent Schools as such are even required to re-
serve, I think, one-third of their school places for
children who might be supplied to them from Gov-
ernment. None of that obtains in this Island in truth
and in fact. I am bearing in mind that the hour is
causing hon. members to cryout, but forthat matter,
if one were to examine what this Report says of tech-
nical and vocational education and vocational training,
Mr. Chairman, I do not knowwhenwewould ever end
tonight.

However I want to give my support to this Reso-
lution, but I still feel that enough is not being done.
Government's hands are not wide enough open when
it comes to dealing with some of the private schools,
and I even left out what the Government tells the
parents of the children who were attending the Bar-
bados Academy. The Government tells them to go and
look for other schools to which to send their children.
I did not think the parents needed Government to tell
them that. If they were sufficiently minded to have
sent their children to the Barbados Academy, or to
any other school for that matterwithout Government
urging it upon them, we feel confident that when sit-
uations such as these present themselves to the par-
ents that they would of necessity set about trying to
find somewhere to send their children. I still feel,
as I said already, that Government is not doing jus-
tice to the children by only having a mere sixteen
schools listed where the parents are toldto get their
children into.
11.50 p.m.

There are many other schools which have got
results in the G.C.E. results that the Government
aided-schools ......(Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Results
are not all). We appreciate the fact that results are
not all, but results are of prime importance because
the Report tells us that the Governmentwill approve
you for writing solely (Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: That
is not correct). The Report is available to the Min-
ister. (ASIDES.) Well, the Report is not correct; this
is one.which is printed at the "Truth". That is the
next thing I will hear, that the Report is not correct.
I will tell you that at paragraph 206 you are recog-
nised solely for the purpose of taking the General
Certificate of Education Examination, and if that is
the case, many of the other private schools have the
right to be registered as from tomorrow morning. I
am going to spare hon. members on that side the
burden of my being inflicted upon them or of inflict-
ing myself upon them any further in this respect,
but I am warning them that they are going to see and
hear much more on this question of giving approval
to schools. I urge on the Ministertowiden the scope
whereby the children who cannot now return to the
Barbados Academy can find places somewhere else;








2100


and with the Government's help, the Government's
assistance and the Government's blessing for chil-
dren there are many more schools in this Island
which have got very good results and I urge on the
Government to call upon all of these schools tomor-
row to make application for recognition or approval.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Chairman, perhaps it might
be best for the benefit of hon. members to clear up
this question of approval. The policy of assistance
to Approved Independent Schools read as follows:-

"Before the Ministry gives clearance of approval
to an Independent School, it must be fully satisfied
after an inspection that. the school is approvable
upon all of the following grounds:

(a) that the school premises and all parts
thereof are suitable for a school;

(b) that the accommodation provided on the
schoolpremises is adequate and suitable having re-
gard to the number, ages and sex of the pupils at-
tending the school;

(c) that efficient and competent instruction is
being provided at the school to a standard calculated
to ensure a reasonable percentage of success in pub-
lic examinations recognized by the Ministry."

That I think, should clearup in the minds of some
hon. members who might be confused, the whole
question of approval and how this approval is gained.
The point at issue now is an increase in the numbers
of pupils who are to be taken in shortly at the be-
ginning of the next term. At this point, I would like to
point out to the Hon. Minister one ortwo things which
may have, perchance, escaped his attention. "The
Government declines," I read here, "responsibility
for any decision taken on the part of the schools to
increase their fees." It has been lamentably neces-
sary for most of the properly run Independent
Schools to increase their fees for a number of rea-
sons, the Chief being the necessity of increasing the
salaries paid to the staff. When the schools were
given a number of pupils for whom the Government
paid $25 each at that time, some of these schools
had a $25 fee. That is now no longer the case. At that
time also, teachers were paid a salary consonant
with the beginners in the Civil Service, which is $80
monthly. Just before the last election, I cannot say
ante hoc, ergo propter hoc, but I am tempted to say
that the minimum salary went to $125.

It must be clear to all people who follow public
life in Barbados, that if alternative employment is
based on a minimum of $125 monthly, people who
are going to be recruited as teachers in private
schools are going to demand the same minimum of
$125 monthly. That must be clear to the meanest
intelligence. Obviously, therefore, it will be neces-
sary, if one is to retain one's staff, to start them on
the same salary packet as they would get in alter-
native employment of the Civil Service orteaching in
Government-aided schools. I know in my own case


that it must make agreatdealof difference because
I have a staff of 58 teachers in my school, and the
same would affect other schools according to their
numbers and qualifications of their staffs. It is felt,
therefore, that in the promised review, the Govern-
ment will take into account the fact that this $25
which they formerly gave and for which we, in the
main, were most grateful, is no longer a practical
figure in that the fees paid in all the school have
moved beyond this figure, andthat $35 is nearer what
is now paid in the average private school.

It is felt, Mr. Chairman, that the Government has
a great saving to make by sending these pupils, who
may have passed their screening test forwhom there
was no room in the Government-aided schools, into
the Independent Private Schools in that it is generally
known that in our First Grade Schools, say, Harrison
College and Lodge School, it costs about $500 annu-
ally to educate a boy. The same boy, were he sent to
one of the Independent Schools at the present moment
the fees which the Government would pay for him
would be $75 annually. If we add to that a percen-
tage of the subventions which we are given I will
speak about those in a few minutes we can even
arrive at a figure of $100 a year although it would
not be that high. Let us call it $100 a year that that
pupil would cost in an Independent School. There is
a clear saving there of at least $400 annually per
pupil. I would like to stress at this point, and I hope
that the Minister will take the message tothe people
who are most responsible for any review, that a
school in this age if it has to educate children and
does not teach Science, is not a school at all.


This is a scientific age, andIdo think that if the
Government is interested in the future of the nation,
it will see to it that a greater subvention is given to
those schools where Science is taught. The whole
future of the country depends upon the instruction
which is given inthese schools because some of these
children are not going to have any other instruction
but what they get in these Private Independent Schools,
as they cannot get into any other type of school. It
must be safeguarded then that they are given a liberal
education and one in which Science plays a part.
12.00 p.m.

Getting a boy through the G.C.E., or a girl in
History and Scripture, does not make very much of a
citizen for the future of the nation, but a knowledge
of scientific subjects is necessary.


Mr. Chairman, we will find that there is a great
deal of duplication of existing facilities and awastage
of some. We are hoping that thatwill pass away. For
instance, I know of no Private School pupil who is
admitted to the Technical School at the moment.
Whenever an application is made, you are told that
there is no room, as though these children were not
also the sons of taxpayers. Technical education is
denied them on the ground that there is no room even
for those who attend the Government-aided Schools.
We would like to see a new policy adopted on that.







2101


We would not like to appear, Mr. Chairman, to
be ungrateful for the efforts being made by Govern-
ment to assist the Independent Private Schools; but
we do feel that, with this kind of patch-work ap-
proach which is adopted at the moment, the problem
is not being handled at all boldly and fully. We would
hope that there would be some consultation with the
Heads of Private Schools when the policy of assis-
tance is being reviewed, just as there was consid-
erable discussion when the present policy of
assistance was being drawn up.

There are many points that would have to be
raised by different Heads points which the Govern-
ment might not be aware of. There are a few irksome
things which some of us have experienced,like the
method of returning fees to those who are respon-
sible for examinations. There is the danger of the
spreading of bad blood because of the insulting
technique which has been adopted by people in edu-
cation as to the manner in which these fees should
be returned. The pupil is called up for the return
of fees. The School is never toldwhenfees are to be
returned, and in many cases these fees, Mr. Chair-
man, have been advanced by the school, butthe pupil
gets them back and, having left school, the schools
do not get them.

However, some people think that the parents of
the children have votes, while the poor Headmaster
has only one. I would not be so unkind as to say that
that is the reason for it; but it is definitely thought-
less; it is insulting; and it is not liked by the pro-
prietors of these Schools. Many discrepancies which
occur can be cleared away, Mr. Chairman, if the
Minister would be good enough to adopt the sugges-
tion which I now make: that the Heads of Schools be
called in when this policy of assistance is being re-
viewed. I do not want to keep the House any longer,
as we have had a very full and a very long day; so I
will leave further remarks for another occasion.

The question that the Resolution do now pass was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE 1968-69 No.29

A Resolution for $100,000 was called.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, we do not
want to keep back the House, and I want to get some
rest. So far as the Addendum is concerned, the break-
down is as follows:-


Culvert at Lodge Road, Christ
church
Culvert by Hill's Supermarket,
Oistins, Christ Church
Canalization of Palm Beach,
Hastings, Christ Church
Canalization at Maxwell Salt Pond
Christ Church
Canalization at Buccaneer Bay,
St. James


$

9,900

- 9,400

- 8,600

- 43,000

- 15,419


Drainage works at St. Matthias,
Christ Church
Drainage of Alexandra School, St.
St. Peter
Drainage of St. Lawrence Gap,
Christ Church


- 2,000

- 6,930

- 4,909


This makes a total of $98,159. Is there anything else
members want to know? (Mr. HINDS: That total is
not correct.) Mr. Chairman, I beg to move that this
Resolution do now pass.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to second that.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to
ask the Minister one question on this matter. Is the
Government carrying out such a scheme in Holetown
near some beach facility forwhich Miss Kay Marshall
is responsible? Can the Minister tell me whether
or not the Chief Technical Officer at Public Works
has instructed the Engineers to stop carrying out this
exercise in Holetown, because Miss Kay Marshall has
made a complaint that the Government has no power,
or right, to carry out such a scheme near her place?
Is it true that the Chief TechnicalOfficerhas stopped
the Engineers from working there within the last two
days?

Of course, Mr. Chairman, Miss Kay Marshall
seems to be a ladywho is not prepared to get on with
the people of Barbados. I do not know if she is a
Barbadian, but her attitude towards coloured people
in particular seems to be something that should be
looked into. Just recently some Guides were near
her place which she is renting, and she ordered them
off her land because they were not supporting her
canteen.

I wish the Minister will be able to explain to me
whether he knows he said earlier this evening that
he knows what goes on in his Ministry anything
about this matter, or has had aReport from his Chief
Technical Officer? If so, I am calling upon the Min-
ister to investigate this matter later in the day.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: First, Imust saythat Miss
Kay Marshall is renting the place that Teddy Jones
has, but that belongs to the Government. It is at the
back of Holetown Post Office. We have just done the
compound for her, but as far as I know she wanted
two trees removed.
12.10 p.m.
According to the Agricultural Department, you
cannot move trees as you like in Barbados, and as
they did not see any reason to move the trees, they
objected. The nearestthingonwhich I knowthe Tech-
nical Division from my Ministry wouldbe workings
the Holetown project, but I do not see how this could
affect Miss Marshall. On the opposite side is Sun-
set Crest, but I do not really know about this. Any-
how, since the hon. memberhas asked, Iwill enquire
later in the morning from Mr. Wason whether he
knows anything about it, though if he did, I am sure
he would have told me. Anyhow, I will investigate it.







2102


The question that the Resolution for the sum of
$100,000 do now pass was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

On the motion of Hon. J.C. TUDOR, seconded by Hon.
C.E. TALMA, Mr. CHAIRMAN reported the passing of seven
Resolution in Committee of Supply, and Mr. Speaker resumed
the Chair and reported accordingly.

On the separate motions of Hon. J.C. TUDOR, seconded
by Hon. C.E.TALMA, the Resolutions were read a first and
second time and agreed to.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I should just
like to assure the House that I would like to do two
Civil Establishment Orders because of course we
voted the money in connection with them in Commit-
tee just now, and the Commissioners of Probates
Act which, I am told, is urgently required. I would
not detain the House by speaking on them unless to
answer any questions.

I beg to move that Order No. 3 be the next Order
of the Day.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

THE CIVIL ESTABLISHMENT (GENERAL)
(AMENDMENT) (NO. 6) ORDER, 1968

Mr. SPEAKER: The instant Order of the Day is
Order No. 3 and it is a Resolution to approve the
Civil Establishment (General) (Amendment) (No. 6)
Order, 1968. This stands in the name of the Hon.
and Learned Prime Minister.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I am asking
leave to take charge of this Resolution.


Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the House
is asking leave to take charge of this item, and un-
less there is any objection, leave will be granted.

There being no objection, leave is granted the
Hon. Minister.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Order No. 7 be the next Order of the Day.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.


.THE CIVIL ESTABLISHMENT (GENERAL)
:(AENDMDMENT) (No. 5) ORDER, 1968

Mr. SPEAKER: The instant Order of the Day is
Order No. 7 and it is a Resolution to approve the
Civil Establishment (General) (Amendment) (No.5)
Order, 1968. This stands in the name of the Hon. and
Learned Prime Minister.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I am asking
leave to take charge of this Resolution.

Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the House is
asking leave to take charge of this Resolution, and
unless there is any objection, leave will be granted.

There being no objection, leave is granted the
Hon. Leader of the House.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I am asking
leave to take Order No. 5 as the next Order of the
Day.

Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the House
is asking leave to take Order 5 as the next Order of
the Day, and unless there is any objection, leave will
be granted.

There being no objection, leave is granted the
Hon. Leader of the House.

THE COMMISSIONERS OF PROBATES
(AMENDMENT) ACT, 1968.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, the purpose
of this Bill is to increase the number of Commission-
ers of Probates from five to seven.

I beg to move thatthis Billbe now read a second
time.


Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, this Bill
chips at the surface of a problem which worries
lawyers, more particularly solicitors rather than
barristers, a good deal. I do not knowwho all the five
Commissioners of Probates are, and I am surprised
to hear there are five. There are Mr. Boyce, Mr.
Haynes, Mr. Banfleld, Mr. Gill and Mr. Daniel; but
in any case, Mr. Speaker, all of them are persons
who have become Commissioners of Probates by
reason of a long and successful career. Nearly all
of them except the one who is in the Registry, are
persons who have become Commissioners of Pro-
bates by reason of long service in a solicitor's firm,







2103


and they are all in fact fairly busy men. It can be
quite difficult to get a Commissioner of Probate
when you want to take the probate of a deed,
and for that reason this Bill will be welcomed.
But as I say, this is only the surface of the problem.
The Evidence Act of 1905 which permits proof of a
deed to be taken before Commissioners of Probates
seriously needs bringing up to date, and more im-
portant than that is a matterwhichwe have gone into
in here before when there was a question of notarial
fees being discussed the necessity for more
Notaries Public. There is in Barbados only one
Notary Public, the Registrar. I believe that it is
possible that the Assistant Registrar may either be
authorised to act as a Notary Public when the Re-
gistrar is away or may indeed be a Notary Public in
himself, but this is a state of affairs, Mr. Speaker,
that is very awkward for persons who need deeds
sworn in Barbados or need deeds notarised orother-
wise proved in Barbados, that they must always go to
the Registrar.


It seems unreasonable, Mr. Speaker, that Com-
missioners of Probates should not also be Notaries
Public. Those of us who are members for example,
of the Bar of St. Lucia are all Notaries Royal. I do
not know if Your Honour is a member of the St.
Lucia Bar, but I know that the hon. junior member
for St. Philip and the hon. junior member for St.
Joseph like myself are all Notaries Royal of St.
Lucia and can therefore, if the occasion arose,
notarise deeds which would be validly presentable
by the Law of Nations in Courts anywhere, whereas
in Barbados the only way you can get such a notari-
sation is from the Registrar. So I very much hope
the Government will look at this problem, both the
problem of the Evidence Act because the sections
setting out proof of deeds isveryvague, and the pro-
blem of the shortage of Notaries the unique posi-
tion of the Registrar as a Notary. Other than that,
Mr. Speaker, of course nobody would object to this
Bill.


The question that this Bill be now read a second time
was put and resolved in the affirmative without division.
12.20 a.m.

On the motion of Hon. J.C. TUDOR, seconded by Hon. C.
E. TALMA, Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the House went
into Committee on the Bill, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

The two Clauses of the Bill were called and passed.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, Ibegto move
that you do now report the passing of one Bill in
Committee.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

The CHAIRMAN reported and Mr. SPEAKER resumed
the Chair and reported accordingly.

On separate motions of Hon. J,C. TUDOR, seconded
by Hon. C.E. TALMA, the Bill was read a third time and
passed.

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS CONCLUDED

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, that concludes
Government Business for today. In fixing the Order
Paper under Government Business, I should like to
make Committee of Supply as Order No. 1 and every-
thing else to follow Seriatim. I am throwing out a
suggestion to the other side. I wonder whether they
would consider having another 10 o'clock meeting
on Tuesday. I have reasons to believe that in the
early afternoonwe are bidden elsewhere and, obvious-
ly, we would not wish to come back here. We would
want to finish here and go on the recess when we
leave here in the early afternoon; therefore, I think
that perhaps we could come at 1Qo'clock a.m., and
if we can finish everything at 1 o'clock, that will be
so much better.

Mr. SPEAKER: There may be some difficulty
in respect of our meeting at 10 o'clock a.m., at the
start of the business onthe day. I think that meeting
at 12 o'clock (noon) would be entirely agreeable to
the Chair, if it meets with the approval of the House.

THE ADJOURNMENT

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Verywell, Mr. Speaker,we
could not workwithout a Speaker or a Deputy Speaker,
I therefore beg to move that this House do now ad-
journ until Tuesday next, 3rd September, 1968, at
12 o'clock (Noon).

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division and Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House
accordingly.
12.28 a.m.





Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 42
Supplement to Official Gazette No. 53 dated 3rd July, 1969.



S.I. 1969 No. 111
The Hotel Aids Act, 1967
NOTICE GIVEN UNDER SECTION 2(4) OF THE
HOTEL AIDS ACT, 1967
The Cabinet in exercise of the powers conferred
on it by section 2(4) of the Hotel Aids Act, 1967
here by gives the following notice:-
1. This Notice may be cited as the Hotel Aids
(Shangri-La Hotel) Notice, 1969.
2. It is hereby declared that the group of build-
ings to be known as "Shangri-La Hotel" situate and
now in the course of alteration and extension at
Maxwell Coast Road, in the parish of Christ Church
shall be deemed to be an hotel for the purposes of the
Hotel Aids Act, 1967.
Given by the Cabinet this 19th day of June,1969.

F. M. BLACKMAN
Secretary to the Cabinet.
(M. P. TOU-100/1/2/26).
















md"BS_____W







2 STATUTORY INSTRUMENT


S.I. 1969 No. 112

The Civil Establishment Act, 1949 (1949-5)

THE CIVIL ESTABLISHMENT (GENERAL)
(AMENDMENT) (NO. 4) ORDER, 1969.

The Prime Minister in exercise of the powers con-
ferred on him by section 3 of the Civil Establishment
Act, 1949, hereby makes the following Order -

1. This Order may be cited as the Civil Estab-
lishment (General) (Amendment) (No. 4) Order, 1969.

2. In Schedule A to the Civil Establishment (Gen-
eral) Order, 1966, there shall be made the amendments
directed to be made therein by the Schedule to this
Order.

SCHEDULE


Reference to place for
making amendment

17. MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE,
LABOUR AND NATIONAL
INSURANCE







(i) General


Amendment



Delete the Heading "17. MINISTRY OF
AGRICULTURE, LABOUR AND
NATIONAL INSURANCE" and substi-
tute therefore

"17. MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE,
SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY".

Delete all the words appearing there-
under and substitute

"1. Permanent Secretary...... F .....1
2. Senior Assistant Secretaryl ......







STATUTORY INSTRUMENT 3


SCHEDULE Cont'd


Reference to place for
making amendment


17. MINISTRY OF
AGRICULTURE
LABOUR AND
NATIONAL INSURANCE -
Continued


(i) General


(iv) Labour


(vii) National Insurance


3. Assistant Secretary ......... G.3-1...... 1
4. Senior Executive Officer... G. 3-2.... 1
5. Executive Officer.......... G. 5-4..... 1
6. Senior Accountant........... G. 3-2...... 1
7. Assistant Accountant........ G. 7-6......1"

Delete the sub-heading "(iv) Labour" and
all the words appearing thereunder and sub-
stitute

"(iv) Co-operatives and Friendly Societies

1. Registrar of Co-operatives and
Friendly Societies.......... G. 3-2 ......1
2. Co-operative Officer....... G. 7-6..... 3
(iva) Fisheries

1. Fisheries Officer ...~..... G. 3-2...... 1
2. Fisheries Assistant...... G. 7-6...... 1
3. Marine Mechanic.....;G.8(E.B.)G.7.... 2"
Delete the sub-heading "(vii) National In-
surance" and all the words appearing there-
under.


Amendment








4 STATUTORY INSTRUMENT


SCHEDULE Cont'd


Reference to place for
making amendment


Amendment


26. MINISTRY OF TRADE,
CO-OPERATIVES AND
FISHERIES Delete the Head "26. MINISTRY OF TRADE,
TOURISM, CO-OPERATIVES AND
FISHERIES" and all the words appearing
.. Jt mut. institute -

"26. MINISTRY OF TRADE AND TOURISM

(i) General

1. Permanent Secretary...:.......F........:
2. Assistant Secretary........... G. 3-1..' 1
3. Assistant Accountant......... G. 7-6..- 1

(ii) Controls, Supplies and Subsidies

1. Senior Executive Officer....: G. 3-2.... 1
2. Senior Inspector....;...;...... G. 7-6 .. 1"


27. GENERAL SERVICE


Item 3


Item 4


Items 5, 6, 7 and 8


Substitute the figures "45" for the figures
"44" appearing in the column headed "Num-
ber of Offices" opposite to the office of
"Senior Clerk".

Substitute the figures "550" for the figures
"548" appearing in the column headed "Num-
ber of Offices" opposite to the office "Cleri-
cal Officer".

Substitute the figures "158'.' for the figures
"155" appearing in the column headed "Num-
ber of Offices" opposite to the offices
"Secretary, Stenographer, Grade "A", Steno-
grapher, Grade "B", Typist".







STATUTORY INSTRUMENT 5



SCHEDULE Cont'd

Reference to place for Amendent
Amendment
making amendment

Items 5, 6, 7 and 8 Cont'd After Head "27. GENERAL SERVICE"
add new Head "28. MINISTRY OF LABOUR,
NATIONAL INSURANCE AND HOUSING".

(i) General
bes .b anen. Secretary.... F.........:.... 1

2, Assistant Secretary....: G.3-1.....:: 1

(ii) Labour

1. Chief Labour Officer..,. ......:.... :1
2. Deputy Chief Labour
Officer............ ..... G. 1...........: 1
3. Senior Labour Officer..;G. 3-2...... 1
4. Accountant..............G. 5-4 ...... 1
5. Labour Officer........... G. 5-4...... 5
6. Assistant Labour Officer G. 7-6 ..10
7. Telephone Operator/
Receptionist....-..-......L. 5-...-*... 1

(iii) National Insurance

1. Director............ ...... G............. 1
2. Assistant Director...... I............ 1
3. Senior Accountant..... G. 3-2...... 1
4. Senior Executive Officer G. 3-2... 3
5. Executive Officer...... G. 5-4.. 13
6. Accountant................ 5-4... 1
7. Assistant Accountant..... G. 7-6 .... 1"


Made as aforesaid this 10th day of June, 1969.


ERROL W. BARROW
Prime Minister.
(Approved by Resolution No. 38/1969 Gazetted 3/7/69)




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