• TABLE OF CONTENTS
HIDE
 Main
 Supplement: House of assemble debates...
 Supplement: Senate debates for...
 Supplement: Senate debates for...














Group Title: Official gazette, Barbados
Title: The official gazette
ALL VOLUMES CITATION THUMBNAILS PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00076861/00096
 Material Information
Title: The official gazette
Physical Description: v. : ill. ; 33-42 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Barbados
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: BridgetownBarbados Published by authority
 Subjects
Subject: Law -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Genre: periodical   ( marcgt )
 Notes
General Note: Caption title.
General Note: Supplements issued for some of the numbers.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00076861
Volume ID: VID00096
Source Institution: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: aleph - 001043625
oclc - 12594829
notis - AFC6434

Table of Contents
    Main
        Page 395
        Page 396
        Page 397
        Page 398
    Supplement: House of assemble debates for 6th August, 1968
        Page A 1926
        Page A 1927
        Page A 1928
        Page A 1929
        Page A 1930
        Page A 1931
        Page A 1932
        Page A 1933
        Page A 1934
        Page A 1935
        Page A 1936
        Page A 1937
        Page A 1938
        Page A 1939
        Page A 1940
        Page A 1941
        Page A 1942
        Page A 1943
        Page A 1944
        Page A 1945
        Page A 1946
        Page A 1947
        Page A 1948
        Page A 1949
        Page A 1950
        Page A 1951
        Page A 1952
        Page A 1953
        Page A 1954
        Page A 1955
        Page A 1956
        Page A 1957
        Page A 1958
        Page A 1959
        Page A 1960
        Page A 1961
        Page A 1962
        Page A 1963
        Page A 1964
        Page A 1965
    Supplement: Senate debates for 1st February, 1968
        Page B 285
        Page B 286
        Page B 287
        Page B 288
        Page B 289
        Page B 290
        Page B 291
        Page B 292
        Page B 293
        Page B 294
        Page B 295
        Page B 296
        Page B 297
        Page B 298
        Page B 299
        Page B 300
    Supplement: Senate debates for 15th February, 1968
        Page B 301
        Page B 302
        Page B 303
        Page B 304
Full Text










VOL. CIV.


(Ij#


*JfiidaI


PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY

BRIDGETOWN, BARBADOS, IST MAY, 1969


TABLE OF CONTENTS
Gazette Notices
Application for Liquor Licence, District "A":
Colin S. Carter...................................
Appointment:
T. LeV. King, Acting Government Analyst
to be a Public Analyst...................
Appointment of Magistrates at Several Districts
re Receivers of Wreck...........................


House of Assembly Debates for 6th August, 1968.
Senate Debates for 1st and 15th February, 1968.

NOTICE NO. 298
GOVERNMENT NOTICES
Appointment
Notice is hereby given that the Minister
in exercise of the powers conferred upon him
by section 82 of the Merchants Shipping Act,
1898, has appointed the Magistrates assigned
to the several Magisterial Districts to be
Receivers of Wreck in those Districts, and to
perform the functions conferred upon that of-
fice by the Act.

In the case of a Magisterial District to
which more than one Magistrate has been as-
signed, any such Magistrate may perform the
duties of a Receiver of Wreck in that Dis ee


Appointment
Mr. T. LeV. King, Acting Government
Analyst to be a Public Analyst under Section
12 of the Food and Drugs (Adulteration) Act,
1933, (1933-2).

NOTICE NO. 299
LIQUOR LICENCE NOTICE
(Act 1957 40)

APPLICANT: COLIN S. CARTER
ADDRESS: Rams Gate, Bay Street.
PREMISES: Wall & Wooden building
situated at Corner of
Combermere &
Bay Street.
Dated this 18th day of April 1979.

Signed: COLIN S. CARTER
Applicant.
This Application for a Restaurant Li-
cence will be considered at a Licensing Court
to be held at Magistrates' Courts District
"A" on Thursday the 15th day of May 1969 at
9 o'clock a.m. ,

GEORGE COLLYMORE'
Clerk to Licensing Authority.


f3. 7.2 f

-2.,Po


NO. 35


~iil~aette







OFFICIAL C~4ZETTE


GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Sugar Factory Workers Severance Payments Act, 1965

APPOINTMENTS


In accordance with the provisions of Section 4 (2) of the Sugar Factory
Workers Severance Payments Act, 1965, as amended by the Existing Laws
Amendment Order, No. 2 1967, the Minister has appointed the following per-
sons to be members of the Sugar Factory Workers Severance Payments Board
for a period of two years with effect from 21st April, 1969:-

Mr. C. L. L. Sealy
Nominated by the Barbados Sugar
Mr. C. R. Packer Producers' Federation
Mr. E. L. G. Hoad

Senator F. L. Walcott, O.B.E.
Nominated by the Barbados
Mr. Aubrey Sobers Workers' Union.
Workers Union.
Mr. Oscar Atwell

(M.P. 1035/18/2)


APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS TO SUGAR WORKERS'
PROVIDENT FUND BOARD

In accordance with Section 3 of the Sugar Workers (Provident Fund)Act,
1968, (1968-54), the Minister of Labour has appointed the following persons to
be members of the Sugar Workers' Provident Fund Board under the Chairman-
ship of the Chief Labour Officer for a period of two years with effect from 1st
May, 1969:-

Mr. E. R. L. Ward
Mr. N. C. Thornton Nominated by the Sugar Producers'
Federation of Barbados.
Mr. C. O. Williams

Mr. E. Henry Nominated by the Barbados
Mr. O. Atwell Workers' Union.
Senator F. L. Walcott
O.B.E.


May 1. 1969












GOVERNMENT NOTICE


VACANT POSTS OF ANAESTHETIST AND ASSISTANT ANAESTHETIST

QUEEN ELIZABETH HOSPITAL


Applications are invited from suitably qualified persons for ap-
pointment to the above posts.
Qua lfica tions:
(a) For the post of Anaesthetist, the fellowship in Anaesthesia
of the Royal College of Surgeons or equivalent, plus not
less than six years post-qualification experience, at least
four years of which must have been spent in the practice
of anaesthesia;

(b) For the post of Assistant Anaesthetist, the Diploma in
Anaesthesia or equivalent, plus not less than two years
post-qualification experience, at least one year of which
must have been spent in the practice of anaesthesia.

Salary: The Salary of the posts is $10,080 per annum (fixed)

Consulting Practice: Private consulting practice is permitted in the hospital
and in the case of the Anaesthetist only, outside the hospital, provided this
does not interfere with Government duties. For consulting practice in the
hospital the officers will receive a non-pensionable allowance of 75% of the
fees paid into the Public Treasury for specialist services rendered by the of-
ficer. The officer will retain full fees paid to him for consulting practice out-
side of the hospital.

Application forms (S.C. 21) and full details of posts may be ob-
tained from the Service Commissions Department, "Flodden" Culloden Road,
St. Michael.

Application forms should reach the Chief Personnel Officer,
Service Commissions Department "Flodden" Culloden Road, St. Michael,
Barbados, not later than 31st May, 1969.


SERVICE COMMISSIONS DEPARTMENT,
2nd April, 1969.


May 1, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE








OFIILGZTT a ,16


NOTICE NO. 295


Form R


Regulation 9


Notice of Sitting of Licensing Authority

(The Liquor Licence Act, 1957 Section 16)

Notice is hereby given that a special
Sitting of the Licensing Authority for District
"A" willbe held at the Magistrates' Courts,
District "A" on Thursday 15th May, 1969 for
the purpose of granting Licences, transfers
of Licences and Orders for Registration of
Clubs under the above mentioned Act.

Dated at Magistrates' Courts District
"A", 16th April, 1969.

GEORGE COLLYMORE
Clerk to the Licensing Authority.

N.B. All Applications must reach the
Magistrates' Courts District "A" not later
than twenty-one (21) days before date.


NOTICE NO. 296
LIQUOR LICENCE NOTICE

(Act 1957 40)
APPLICANT: ISHI KESSARAM
(India House Ltd.)


OCCUPATION:
PREMISES:


Manager
Wall building situated at
No. 9 Broad Street.


Dated this 16th day of April 1969.

Signed: ISHI KESSARAM
Applicant.
This Application for a Retail Licence
will be considered at a Licensing Court to be
held at Magistrates' Courts District "A' on
Thursday the 15th day of May 1969 at
9 o'clock a.m.

GEORGE COLLYMORE
Clerk to Licensing Authority.


NOTICE NO. 297

LIQUOR LICENCE NOTICES

(Act 1957- 40)


APPLICANT: ORBAN BASTON
OCCUPATION: Contractor
ADDRESS: Enterprise, Christ Church.
PREMISES: Wall building situated at
the Corner of Suttle
Street and HartStreet,
Near St. Mary's
Church.
Dated this 17th day of April 1969.

Signed: ORBAN BASTON
Applicant.

This Application for a Restaurant Li-
cence will be considered at a Licensing Court
to be held at Magistrates' Courts District
"A" on Thursday the 15th day of May 1969 at
9 o'clock a.m.

GEORGE COLLYMORE
Clerk to Licensing Authority.


APPLICANT:
ADDRESS:
PREMISES:




Dated this


H. O. TOPPIN
84 Roebuck Street
Ground floor of wall
building situated at
84 Roebuck Street.
24th day of March 1969.


Signed: H. 0. TOPPIN
Applicant.


This 'Application for a Retail Licence
will be considered at a Licensing Court to be
held at Magistrates' Courts District "A" on
Thursday the 15th day of May 1969 at
9 o'clock a.m.

GEORGE COLLYMORE
Clerk to Licensing Authority.


Government Printing Office.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


May 1. 1969












THE




House of Assembly Debates




(OFFICIAL REPORT)


SECOND SESSION OF 1966 71


HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 6th August, 1968.
Pursuant to the adjournment, the House of As-
sembly met at 12.15 p.m. o' clock today.

PRESENT


His Honour J. E. T. BRANCKER, Q.C., F.Z.S.,
(Speaker); Mr. L. E. SMITH, J.P.; Hon. C. E. TALMA,
(Minister of Health and Community Development); Hon.
J. C. TUDOR, M.A., (Leader of the House); Hon. G. G.
FERGUSSON, (Minister of Trade, Tourismi Co-operatives
and Fisheriss); Mr. R. ST. C. WEEKES, J.P.; Hon. N.W.
BOXHILL, (Minister of Communications and Works); Mr.
J. B. YEARWOOD, J.P., (Chairman of Committees);
Mr. W. C. B. HINDS: Mr. C. A. E. HOPPIN, J.P.;
and Mr. J. B. SPRINGER.


Prayers were read.

MINUTES

Mr. SPEAKER: The Minutes for Wednesday, 27th
March, 1968, I understand, have been duly circulated.
Unless there is any objection, they will be confirmed.
There being no objection, I declare duly confirmed
the Minutes of the Meetingof Wednesday, 27th March,
1968.

PAPERS LAID


Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Speaker, I am com-
manded to lay the following documents:



Statements showing the sums of money advanced
to the Postmaster General for the payment of
Money Orders, the amounts repaid to the Ac-
countant General and the amounts due by various
Post Offices to February, March, April and May,
1968.



The Wireless Telegraphy (Amateur Transmitter)
(Amendment) Regulations, 1968.


GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Hon. J. C. TUDOR:Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
Hon. and Learned Prime Minister, Minister of Fi-
nance and Minister of External Affairs,I begto give
notice of a Resolution to place the sum of $10,660 at
the disposal of the Government to supplement the Es -
timates as shown in the Supplementary Estimates
1968-69 No. 19 which form the Schedule to the Reso-
lution.

Also, to give notice of a Bill to amend the public
Employees Pensions Act, 1961.

Also, to give notice of Bill to amend the Pensions
Act, 1947,

Also, to state my intention to move the House
into Committee of Supply at its next sitting to deal
with the Money Resolution of which notice has been
given.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give
notice of a Resolution to approve the Wireless Tele-
graphy (Amateur Transmitter) (Amendment) Regu-
lations, 1968.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to
give notice that the Reply to Parliamentary Ques-
tion No. 166, asked by the hon. junior member for
St. John, is ready.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give
notice that the Reply to Parliamentary Question No.
182, asked by the hon. senior member for St. James,
is ready.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Speaker, some time
ago I gave notice of two Parliamentary Questions
which were ready, but which have not yet been given.
I should like permission to give them today when
Question Time is taken.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, am I to understand
that the Hon. Minister said that he gave notice of
Questions?

Mr. SPEAKER: I am not quite clear what is
the understanding of the hon. junior member for
St. Peter.








1927


Mr. HINDS: I am sure Your Honour would be
glad to refer to the Reporter's notes. The Minister
said that he gave notice of Questions.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am informed by the Clerks
that what the Hon. Minister meant was the replies.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Is it for the Clerks
to explain what the Minister meant?

BILLS READ A FIRST TIME

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that a Bill to amend the Public Employees Pen-
sions Act, 1961, be now read a first time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirma-
tive without division. i


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to
move that a Bill to amend the Pensions Act, 1947,
be now read a first time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirma,
tive without division.

Mr. SPEAKER: The first Order of the Day
stands in the name of the Hon. Leader of the House,
and it is to move the House into Committee of
Supply to consider the grant of sums of money for
the service of the Island.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, on a
point of order. I gave notice of certain Questions by
attending here on Friday last and asking for the
Clerk, on being told he was not here, I delivered
them to the Librarian, Mr. Hutchinson. I would like
to know why I have not been called on to ask these
Questions.

Mr. Speaker, Friday is the day for giving in
Questions. The Clerk has just intimated to me that
he has the Questions even though, as he puts it,
they were not drawn to his attention until another
stage. I have been trying to ask the Questions for
a long time. I gave notice on Friday, and I submit
for Your Honour's consideration that I am entitled
to ask the Questions today.

Mr. SPEAKER: I will have the matter further
looked into and inform the House later this day.

Hon. J.C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Item 2 be taken as the first Order of the Day.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirma-
tive without division.
THE DAIRY INDUSTRY (REGULATION AND
CONTROL) BILL, 1968
Mr. SPEAKER: Item No. 2 stands in the name
of the Hon. Leader of the House, and it is to resume


debate on the consideration of the Amendments of
the Senate to the Dairy Industry (Regulation and
Control) Bill, 1968. A Select Committee was ap-
pointed to meet with a Joint Committee of the Other
Place. The Report was laid at the last meeting of
this House, and it has been circulated.

On a previous occasion, on a motion by the
hon. senior member for Bridgetown, seconded by
the hon. junior member for Bridgetown, the matter
was referred to a Select Committee.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that the Report of the Select Committee on this Bill
be adopted.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirma-
tive without. division.

12.25 p.m.


On separate motions of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, se-
conded by Hon. C. E. TALMA, the Amendments were
read a first and second time and agreed to.


COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Order No. 1 be the next Order of the Day.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirma-
tive without division.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order No. 1 is the next Order
of the Day, and it is to move the House into Com-
mittee of Supply to consider the grant of sums of
money for the service of the Island.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and the
House go into Committee of Supply.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.


The question was put and resolved in the affirma-
tive without division, and Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair.
and the House went into Committee of Supply, Mr.
YEARWOOD in the Chair.


SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE 1968-69 No. 17

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, hon. mem-
bers will recall that some weeks ago the House
gave consideration to and passed a Bill setting up
the Community College, I was asked whether it was
possible for me to give the House some indication
of the cost of this venture at least in this financial
year, and I said that time that it was not possible
for me to do this because no submission had as yet
been made. However, this Resolution embodies the
financial proposals which call .'for the sum of








1928


$370,000, the greater part of which is designed to
meet the salaries of the several officers and staff
of the College, and the rest to provide for the equip-
ment, furnishing and maintenance and control of the
grounds at "Eyrie". The two sums are $204,116
and $165,884.

Hon. members opposite would also like to know,
as naturally they will see, that the point which
pressed on me and which I undertook to convey to
the Ministry has been very well taken, and it is
proposed that Commerce teaching be included in the
syllabus at the very opening of the classes early in
October.

I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, this is a Resolution
for the sum of $370,000. I heard what the Hon. Min-
ister had to say as regards the reason why he did
not give us this information as to cost when the
Bill to establish this Community College was before
this Honourable House, but, Mr. Chairman, in
arriving at the initial cost of the launching of this
Institution, there are certain matters which we
sincerely hope were gone into and an opportunity
given to certain bodies to express their views, and
give their opinions on matters of this sort. We must
bear in mind that this is a sum of $370,000.

Now I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that the Hon.
Minister will tell us what is the Constituent Com-
mittee of the Board of Education dealing with such
matters as Draft Estimates. I have in my hand a
Report of the Ministry of Education for the period
1st September, 1957 to 31st August, 1960. In other
words, since the Hon. Leader of the House has been
Minister of Education from some time in 1961 until
he was relieved of the post, the Government has not
seen fit on a matter like education to issue a Re-
port for the benefit of the public or for the benefit of
the teaching profession as a whole. The present
Government went into all this and found this Report
which I have in my hand now, and during the past
seven years, education means so little to them
except in terms of spending the taxpayers' money as
they like, that no Report has been laid since then.
Nevertheless it is on the limited information at our
disposal that we have got to try to work.

When the present Government took office, they
even found Committees whichhad been setup to ad-
vise the Minister of Education on such matters as
finance, staffing and the nomination of persons to
serve on the Government Bodies of schools and the
like, and it is of some importance to us here, Mr.
Chairman, to learn from the Hon. Minister whether
the Committee that advises the Minister of finance
has had anything to do with or had any knowledge of
the requirements as set out in this $370,000 here to-
day.

Now there are quite a number of things, Mr.
Chairman, which will have to engage our attention in


dealing with this Resolution. We are establishing a
Community College, and the Hon. Minister has been
at pains to say that one of the first things on the cur-
riculum will be the teaching of Commerce. It is not
merely for the Minister to tell us that they will start
teaching Commerce at the Community College. What
the Minister of Education ought to have done was to
have carried out a survey of the available facilities
for the teaching of Commerce inthis Island,., and if
the Minister wanted to learn something, he could
certainly have referred to the Report of the Depart-
ment of Education for the year ended 31st August,
1953.
12.35 p.m.

Now, Sir, we are a longway from 1953. We must
come to the conclusion that if the Ministers of Edu-
cation were functioning since 1960 and they were in
any way equal to the task which stood before them,
they would have added something more and they would
have made further and better provisions than what
had been in existence at the 31st August, 1953. But,
Mr. Chairman, suppose we were to attempt to have
a glance at what existed at the 31st August, 1953!
We would find that Combermere School, for instance
I am referring now to the period ending on the 31st
August, 1953 at Combermere school children were
taught, both Seniors and Juniors, Shorthand. In the
year 1953, they turned out 20 Senior and 25 Juniors
in Shorthand. In Typewriting and Book-keeping they
turned out 13 Seniors and 11 Juniors. That, Mr.
Chairman, is what Combermere alone did. The net
results were, the aggregate roll of the advanced class
for the R. S. A. in the Shorthand-Typist Certificate,
18 and they had 3 Tutors. Sir, we ought to go further
and we will find that at the St. John's Mixed School,
Shorthand, Typewriting and General Elementary sub-
jects were being taught there. Children were pre-
pared for the L. C. C., examinations, and a number
of children in that year passed the Pitman's Theory
examination in Shorthand. There were 3 entries in
Typewriting and one passed at the Intermediate stage
That is in respect of the St. John's Mixed School.

Again in St. John at Mount Tabor Mixed School,
the children were being taught Shorthand, Typewriting,
English and Book-keeping. I may pause here because
we find that, in the curriculum of the Community Col -
lege, definitions might be given to subjects which,
perhaps, neither in the United States of America,
Canada nor the United Kingdom educationists need
not know. This Community College is to be a super-
something. At Mount Tabor Mixed School you will see
that Commercial subjects were being taught as far
back as 1953. I can saythatthe children there in that
year got Speed Certificates and Certificates in Theory
and Shorthand at 60, 70 and 80 words a minute. One
student in that year gained an Advanced Certificate
in Typewriting. We go over to St. George at St. Judes
Boy's School. In all of these things I am referring to
here, I am just showing you that even before we
thought of establishing this Community College, it was
absolutely necessary to carry out a survey of existing
facilities. This is what I understand that the Minister
of Education now wants to do. After he has got the
green light from this House to carry through with this








1929


Community College project, he is now setting about
to carry out a survey; but what we, on this side of the
House, are advocating is that the carrying out of the
survey should have preceded the establishment of the
Community College. After you have carried out your
survey to determine what you have in existence, what
you do not have, what you have need of, it is then that
you could have decided whether you wanted a Com -
munity College on the basis of what you now propose
or whether- something more grandiose would have
been necessary.

Mr. Chairman, at St. Judes School, the children
were taught all that the Community College propose
teaching when it comes to the question of Commerce.
At St. Augustine's Boy's School, there again there is
ample evidence in the Reports of the very Ministry
of Education. In other words, all of this goes to show
to us that we have a Minister of Education today func -
tioning, and he does not have to come and sit before
this House and be answerable to the House. He does
not have to read these Reports; he does not have to
familiarise himself with these Reports at all. He goes
into an office and perhaps he just casts these aside.
He has a new scheme andhe puts it on the taxpayers,
whether it costs $370,000, necessary or unnecessary.
That is it. At Speightstown Boys' School, there is the
teaching of Shorthand, Typewriting, Book-keeping,
English, Elementary Maths I am not referring to
language; Spanish and whatever else has been taught
there. There are matters which will be engaging the
attention of the College Staff at its opening date. These
are the things to which I am referring in order to
show that all of these facilities exist, and I am sure
that I can make out a case here today to prove that
the spending of this $370,000 could have been avoided.
12.45 p.m.

If I were to pause for a moment, Sir, the object
in trying to educate our people is not to cause them
to travel from St. Lucy, St. Andrew and St. Peter
to come to a Community College..You must try and
teach our people in buildings as near to their
homes as possible, so that after school they can
easily get back to their respective homes without
the difficulty which we foresee in establishing this
Community College at Two Mile Hill as it will be
established for the time being. This would cause
people,who would be glad to take advantage of the
benefits to be derived from the Community College,
a lot of trouble.
For instance, we have had at the Queen Eliz-
abeth Hospital a young man who lived 19 miles
away from the Hospital. He was a Male Nurse,
and he had to give up his job because he could not
find transportation to be on his job on time at all
times. He found that he was getting on his job too
late, and at the Institution no provision had been
made 'for Male Nurses to sleep after they came off
the job at ten, eleven or twelve o'clock at night.
This young man would have been glad to keep
his job.

This is what we are dealing with here in this
matter of the Community College. Would it not
,have been better for Government to have gone into


St. John, St. Joseph, St. Peter, St. Andrew and
wherever these Centres are established and strength-
en them? They could have used the staff at their
disposal. I am going to deal with this question of
staffing of the Community College, I hope, at some
length here today.

Mr. Chairman, what we are finding is that the
Community College is just some glorified scheme
of the Minister of Education who is attempting to
build a monument unto himself. It is not something
that is being done for the benefit of the people as
such. He is quite unlike other people who have come
here on this earth, set about to do good, and, after
they have gone, to leave others, who know of their
good work, to establish a monument to those who
did a good job and have gone on.

It is said that this is the modern age "Man
Power Day"; so you will find that whatever a man
does today, he is trying to establish his own image.
It is not fair to the taxpayers of this country, and
it is not fair to the people who need to be educated
in this country,. If I were to look at what happened
in 1953, it will be seen that at the Speightstown
Centre they had on the roll 195 persons; they had
6 Instructors; the students took the L. C. C. Ex-
amination in English, Elementary Mathematics,
Book-keeping, Typewriting and so on. What did they
get? They got their pupils to pass examinations
in that year in Typewriting at speeds of from 50 to
80 words per minute. What we are finding today,
Mr. Chairman, is that we have school buildings
scattered throughout this country, and from 3 .30
one evening until the morning of the following day
those buildings are closed and are of no use to
anybody.
It is the duty of any Minister of Education in
this Stage to go to those schools, throw the doors
open, let the people come in, and let everybody
come in who wants to benefit from what can be
obtained there. I dare say, Sir, that if not more
than having some of the old people coming in to
listen to a lecture from somebody if we have
those between 40 and 60 years old, if they want
to learn and listen, let them come in and benefit
in some respect from the lecture, or some teach-
ing, or whatever it is; and, of course, the younger
ones who want to study for their examinations
should be encouraged to come. By all means, throw
the doors open and let them come in without let..
or hindrance and benefit.

I want to tell you here and now as well as those
Family Planners that, if we were to set about throw-
ing the schools open on evenings to educate the
people, it would assist in: reducing the number of
illegitimate births in this Island and do a lot more
to benefit the community as a whole. (ASIDES.)
Mr. Chairman, I understand one hon. member to
say that it would increase the population. If it
did so, these new births would have to be, in
very many respects, products likely to benefit
from education as they come along at a rate at
which, anhon. member who has spoken could never
ever hope to benefit, because we know what effects








1930


-a mother who is carrying a baby we know what
effects the activities of the mother during the
first three, four, five or six months' period of
pregnancy have on a child. If she is the type of
mother who is studious and takes her books and
practices matters of education in any way, then
it will have some bearing on the child she is
carrying.


If we throw the doors open, let people in and
give them some education, there and then we have
an opportunity of educating them, at least, to have
some sort of respect for each other. I am sure
that the question of increasing the Island's pop-
ulation by so doing, if it did happen, would cause
us no regret whatsoever.
12.55 p.m.

Mr. Chairman, in this Report we had atthe 31st
August at the Holy Trinity School 160 childrenon the
roll, but the number of individual students was 134
and they used five Instructors. They entered stu-
dents for the L. C. C. examination, Certificate
stage, in Arithmetic whopassedwith distinction.
Ten students were entered for the L. C. C. elemen-
tary stage in Spanish and all ten passed, five with
distinction. Suppose we go to Belleplaine in St.
Andrew. These are all reports, Mr. Chairman, that
are available, and just as they are available to
me, you must admit that they ought to be more
available to the Minister of Education. At Belle-
plaine in 1953 theymade use of the St. Andrew's
Rectory, the St. Andrew's Boys' School and the
Community Centre. Let us for a single moment
think of this Government going into St. Andrew
full force and throwing these Centres open; and
today we have the Alleyne School with what is
called a Technical Wing attached, and much of
what the Community College proposes teaching is
already being taught and can be taught at the
Technical Wing of the Alleyne School. In other
words, we have these Technical Wings which are
being used between 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock for 4
or five days a week. These Technical Wings are
equipped with a laboratory and machinery for
woodwork, metal work and the like, but the facili-
ties there are not being made the fullest use of.

The Leader of the House some time ago, you
will remember, replied to Questions which I had
tabled here with respect to girls from Boscobelle
in St. Peter being able to take advantage of Domes-
tic Science teaching at the Boscobelle Girls'
School, and the Minister told me that the reason
why the class was not established as I had thought
was because enough girls from Boscobelle had not
intimated to his Ministry that they wanted to be
taught Domestic Science. It is not a case where his
Ministry is thinking of carrying education to these
people, seeing what the people want or advertising,
through whatever medium, to let people know that
the Government is willingto establish a Centre here
or a Centre there, provided enough of them were
willing to take advantage of what was offered. The
Minister felt very smart in telling us that the


Centre has not been established because enough
people from Boscobelle did not travel 19 miles
to Bridgetown to find that there is no Minister.
As a matter of fact, you can now get the Minister,
but you have to do it on the last Wednesday in each
month. I thought that some of these officers had
homes that provide them with a proper meal. I did
not know it was a question of remaining after hours
to feast at the expense of the taxpayers. What we
are concerning ourselves with at these various
Centres, at Belleplaiine in St. Andrew and at the
Alleyne School, is that the Government ought to be
doing something to alert the people in the villages
and let rlcmrn know that it is establishil:g a Centre
there. As I said earlier, if people who live, maybe,
three or four miles away from the Belleplaine
Centre were taking advantage of the instruction
offered there, it would be somewhat difficult, but
nevertheless they would be much better off than
some of the children who have got to travel from
the country districts to the Community College.


What we happen to know, Mr. Chairman, is
that the Community College is fishing about to try
to get enough students with which to start. We
know definitely that Headmasters have been called
and asked what has become of this person and that
person. They are now trying to look for a popula-
tion for the Community College. An examination
of the existing facilities ought to have been carried
out, and we are sure that we would have been much.
better off if all this had been done. I do not wnat to
burden this Committee with many references to the
abundance of information that is contained in this
Report of the Ministry of Education, but what is ab-
solutely necessary is not merely to come here and
to ask for $370,000 to be able to go about and say that
the Government spent $370,000 trying to educate peo-
ple when the former Government did not do this
or that. We are willing to support the spending of
more than $370,000; but what we want to know is that
the people who are expected to be educated by the
spending of this sum benefit from it, and are given
an opportunity to sudy under conditions that are con-
ducive to good study.

Now, Mr. Chairman, on this question of staff,
I would like to hear from the Leader of the House
exactly what was the situation with the staffing of
our Government-aided Secondary Schools up to the
end of last term.
1.05 p.m.

Now at the Boy's Foundation School, already the
situation up there must be causing some nervous con-
dition to its Headteacher. They will be looking around
for somebody to teach Biology in the coming school
year. I want the Minister to take a note of this. At
the Girls' Foundation School, advertisements are
presently being run. I think in Sunday's newspaper,
looking for staff. Now the situation at the Boys'
Foundation School is that they have had two acting
posts there; and while a lady, Mrs. Braucker, we
understand, has returned to the Island, it is not cer-
tain whether these people who have gone abroad and








S1931


have acquired better qualifications than what they
had in the past, will be returning to these Schools.
Therefore, if you find that the Community College is
just going to compete forl Staff and compete unfairly,
you will see what is likely to be the situation with
some of these other Schools when they re-open in
September.

Now, Mr. Chairman, there are some of our other
schools which have beenmakingout, so to speak; they
have been trying to hold out; but with the Community
College calling for Staff, they do not knowwhat is
going to be their position in the new school year. This
is not a case where the appropriate Committee has
been called upon to function and was able to make any
sort of recommendations at all. This is a one-man
set-up. You will find that at the Coleridge Parry
School, the situation arose, and I am sure that the
Hon. Leader of the House knows the case which I am
going to cite now very, very well indeed. A young
man received his education at the Coleridge-Parry
School. He had Technical Institute training and other
training and he is a first-class welder, metal work-
er and the like. Thatyoungmanlivednext door to the
Coleridge-Parry School. He went to work elsewhere
and on evenings he would still go back to the
Coleridge-Parry School to try to help give instruc-
tions to those who required them. The Ministry of
Education would do absolutely nothing to secure the
services of that young man at his own School where
he would have liked to remain and help to build. He
has-now gone into private enterprise, and the school
is down there with its Technical Wings closedup. On
afternoon there is nobody to teach the children any-
thing at all. All the equipment is down there; I cannot
say that it is rusting away, because I understand that
it is being kept in very good condition; but, neverthe-
less, enough use is not being made of it. Mr. Chair-
man, nobody could say that this is the situation which
ought to be obtaining at any of the schools in this Is -
land, and if this is the situation that is obtaining, ra-
ther than have these schools properly equipped that
they could function to the benefit and to the advantage,
of the community as a whole, the community that
they are intended to serve, we say thatwe are setting
up a Community College A Community College to do
what?

The Minister ought to try and find out what is the
position with the Erdiston Teachers' Training College.
Since 1965 they have been suffering from the lack
of a Maths Tutor; since 1965 this Teachers' Train-
ing College has been suffering because they could
not get a Maths Tutor; and what are you going to do
now? If you can put your hands on one, you are not
going to have him placed at Erdiston at all. You want
him for your little pie on one side to go and help eat
at your Community College. That is the situation
which is obtaining. Those are things which we cer-
tainly cannot expect to let go by just like this.

You will find that, in the end, the Community
College is properly staffed, but that all the other Se-
cohdary Schools the Coleridge-Parry, the Alleyne
School in St. Andrew, the Alexandra Girls' School,
the Boys' and Girls' Foundation, Harrison College,


Lodge School, Queen's College all of these places
must suffer Mr. Chairman, there is one important
point. I wonder if the Minister will arise to tell us
how many applications from the Staffs of existing
Secondary Schools in this Island have been received
by the Ministry or by the Public Service Commission.
I remember that before the Bill was passed in this
House we were told that people were so eager and so
anxious that they had made applications for posts
which really did not exist at the time. That is what
we were told here by the Prime Minister, and I want
to tell you that, when the Prime Minister said so, I
did not believe him. I carried out my own investiga-
tions to find that some enquires had been addressed
to the Ministry of Education; but when the Prime
Minister said that they had receivedapplications, I
didn't believe him. I have since carried out investi-
gations and I am satisfied that some enquiries had
been addressed to the Ministry about posts at the
Community College. Should not say "posts" because
no posts existed at the time. It is true that some ap-
plications had been received, but my point is this, Is
the Minister in a position to tell us how many appli-
cations have been received from perpsos, whether
presently or up to the end of last term, who were on
the staffs of the various other schools in this Island?
That is what We are concernedwith because it is from
there that we are likely to kiow to what extent these
other schools a'e to suffer if they do not have time
to look for replacements during their opening term
in September. You will see, Mr. Chairman, that it is
not merely a case of:comingto this House and asking
for $370,000 for this'College.
1.15 p.m.

For instance, we learn, I think it was in reply
to Questions tabled here, that "Eyrie" was to have
been the home of the Community College. We have
been told since then that temporary accommodation
is to be made at "Sherbourne", butweseeherenow
that to provide this temporary accommodation at
"Sherbourne" Will cost us something like $165,884.
I also see that this sum is to cover the cost of
equipment.

Mr. Chairman, we ought to be told if the equip-
ment in this case will comprise things like a labora-
tory. We know that it must include things like basic
furniture benches, desks, etc. We would like the
Minister to give us a complete breakdown as to item
and cost. What we also want to know is whether the
amount that is going to be spent in providing furni-
ture will be spent in Barbados to provide employment
for our local workmen. Let me tell you this Sir. We
know that buildings are to be flown to Barbados. It is
not too much to hear that desks, benches, chairs -
collapsible type of chairs and desks are also to be
flown in.

We want to hear from the Minister if you are
going to use steel furniture if our local foundries
and metal workers will be given an opportunity to
provide What he wants, or if he is going to take tax-
payers' money to support countries abroad. Is he go-
ing to support the workers in other countries and
leave ours unattended?









1932


Sir, nobody could do other than examine the staff
structure. We are going to have 1 Principal, 2 Senior
Tutors, 6 Tutors, 13 Assistant Tutors. Let us pause
there for a moment. Let us tell ourselves that the
teaching personnel up to that point will be 21 persons,
and the Principal will make 22. I want to stop there.

We understand that the Community College ex-
pects to be the home of, say, 300 children, I am won-
dering how the Minister feels whenhe thinks in terms
of Harrison College and its numbers, Combermere
School and its numbers, Boys' Foundation, Girls'
Foundation and their numbers, Queen's College and
its numbers in relation to the numerical strength of
their staff.

Mr. Chairman, it is bad on our part to do any-
thing to harm the Heads of the other Institutions who
have been trying with their staff, who have been
suffering and have been neglected, so to speak, during
the past years because of the shortage of staff. The
shortage of staff has crippled some of them at times,
and we are to set about her e today to make better
provision for staffing the Community College than
for staffing Queen's College, Lodge School, Harri-
son College, Boys' Foundation and the other schools
to which I have referred earlier.

The Minister, in the course of his replies to
Questions tabled here earlier, gave some very potent
information as to what should constitute a Science
Class in other words, how many Science students
you should have to one Tutor and so on. But when we
think, Mr. Chairman, of places like Combermere
School, the numbers there and the staff, and attempt
to make comparisons, are we not now attempting to
place this Community College in a position to lord
it over all of these other schools? It is not fair.

That is why, Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask
if the Constituent Advisory Committee to the Min-
istry of Education has been consulted, and if this
Committee had anything whatsoever to do with making
the recommendations. We are not going to stand on
the Floor of this House and allow a Minister to take
office and to completely ignore Committees com-
prised of experts on education who could teach him
individual members who could teach him some-
thing and allow him to ignore them because he is
the Minister of Education, and then come here to
saddle the taxpayers of this country with thousands
of dollars $370,000 because some hot-headed
Minister wants to glorify himself.
1.25 p.m.

We are willing to spend more than $370,000 on
education, but we want to see that the best benefit
possible accrues to the persons who ought to be
benefiting from it. We are not concerned with the
Minister. The Minister can die tomorrow, but educa-
tion has to go on. We have Committees, as I said
earlier, that had been appointed years ago to advise
the Ministry, and if these Committees had been called
on from time to time and had been allowed to func-
tion, they would have been glad to help with every-
thing there is in education. Today we have been


promised the 1962 Education Act. When the Hon.
Leader of the House was Minister of Education, he
promised us the Education Act which we nowcall the
1962 Education Act. When will we get it? When the
Minister of Education called in the three turn-coats,
traitors, from the Association of Assistant Teachers,
he made all sorts of promises to them, including that
the Association would see the draft of the new Educa-
tion Act. I understand it is still being drafted. If the
Education Act that was promised in 1962 is still being
drafted in 1968, have we any right discussing any
measure on education to cost the taxpayers $370,000
in the initial stages before we see this Education Act?


A point has just occurred to me, Mr. Chairman,
concerning Sherbourne. If a private individual wanted
to establish a College at Sherbourne, there would be the
question of rentals. A Resolution was laid on the Table
of this House showing that $500 per month could have
been got for Sherbourne to house the British High
Commissioner. If the rental of Sherbourne is $500
a month, we are not all mathematicians but we learn
simple arithmetic, and twelve months at $500 is
money at the end of one year in any Bajan language.
Here is a case, Mr. Chairman, where we are told
that $165,884 will be required to provide for the
conversion, equipment, furnishing and maintenance
of the buildings and the maintenance and control
of the grounds, but they do not tell us about the
$6,000 in rent. In other words, this College has
got to start good house-keeping from the very
beginning. We see what the Principal is going to
cost for the year; we see what the two Senior
Tutors are going to cost; we see what the Grounds-
men and Watchmen are going to cost. Do you mean
to say that the Watchman will watch nothing? If at
the end of the year the Community College makes
out its Report and there is not included the sum
of $6,000 for rent, what kind of Report would we be
having? You will understand, Sir, that the way in
which this matter is being dealt with at Government
level is a sufficient indication as to what we must
expect at the end of the first year's running of this
Community College. They are excluding at this
stage some of the principal matters relating to
this College.

Now, Sir, this College is going to start teach-
ing Commercial subjects, and they are going to
employ two Stenographers in a College of 300
children of which the Minister has today very
proudly announced that Opposition members wanted
to know whether Commerce would be started, and
what they are doing. We are not given to understand
here what is going to be the position as regards
staff for teaching Book-keeping. We sincerely hope
that between the Principal, two Senior Tutors, six
Tutors and 13 Assistant Tutors, you will find
enough attention is being paid to teaching children
who are taking these Commercial studies basic Eng-
lish, so that when they come out and attempt to take
their rightful places in Commerce in this Island,
they will not then be the headaches that they prove
to be now to their employers, because this Gov-
ernment has been supporting to some extent a








1933


Commercial College in this Island. From what we
can gather, the employers are not 100% satisfied
with the certificated material that is being offered
to them. What they find is that, whatever is the
situation, an applicant for a post is selected, his
or her salary guaranteed, and after employing that
person for one or two months, the employer is so
disgusted that in order to get rid of that person, they
send her back to school. He has got to put his hands
in his till to pay that person to get out of his
business.
1.35 p.m.

That is not good enough. If this Community
College is going to embark on, amongst other
things, turning out these students in Commerce,
let us hope and pray that the out-turn product
will be a credit to our teaching, or rather to our
educational system in this Island. Mr. Chairman,
you must not know because it is not given to all
of us to be able to appreciate the value of education
as such and when I look backhere to see the pro-
vision which this Government inherited, what this
Government came on to find that the previous
Government had been doing, the foundation that
has been laid, the establishments that were set
up and which could easily have been built upon
and have been neglected, Mr. Chairman, I can-
not for the life of me see how the hon. mover of this
Resolution could feel comfortable in his mind
to expect us on this side of the House to support
a Resolution of this sort without his giving us the
minutest detail as to the expenditure of this
$370,000, and particularly with respect to the sum
of $165,884 which is to be used for the conver-
sion, equipment, furnishing and maintenance of
buildings and the maintenance and controls of the
grounds. All of these things we are asking that.
we be given in some detail.

Let us show you something. The Government
has a scheme for the building of a new Technical
Institute and what are they doing now? We already
have a Technical Institute, but the Government
proposes building a new Technical Institute. If
this new Technical Institute is to be built, and
we understand that some Trade Centre is also
to be set up, what relation does one bear to the
other? I am submitting that we are having an
overlapping, and we are going to have the Minister
of Education competing against himself in the
long run. Incidentally, education has now grown
so fast, it is now so colossal a portfolio, that the
Minister of Education proper is no longer the
Minister of Education in respect of broadcasting,
radio and television. No, Sir, he will have nothing
to do with them. I want to say this. If we could
find the day when all the hon. members on that
side did not have a price attached to them, when
each did not have his price, it is then that you will
find a situation such as this a Minister can resign
and come out honourably. In this day of modern
education, are you to tell me that the Minister of
Education could be so silly as not to know that
you cannot divorce television and broadcasting as
a means of educating the community, from his other


Aimctions? How can that be? The Minister knows,
as well as I know, that you cannot do it success-
fully; but what is the net total? It is just this;
if it is done although the community might suffer,
all our education systems might be dragged down
and ripped apart, at the end of each month, as Min-
ister, he is going to receive his salary whether
the Community or the children learn something
or nothing. That is the trouble. Nobody is going to
say aught about it. You will find that in the Min-
istry of Education today the Prime Minister now
takes to himself and this is the same Prime
Minister who, is delivering his Budget speech,
had to tell us of his having to make use of the
Minister of Home Affairs in that he had so much
to do with finance. In Education, like Finance, there
is a Minister and a half to each. It is a question
of who is going to accept the ultimate responsibil-
ity when something goes wrong. Who is going to
accept the ultimate responsibility for it? The fair
and honest thing for the present Minister of Ed-
ucation and when I say the present Minister
of Education, I do not even know how correct I
am in saying so. I do not know if I mean the first
half or the second half, but the Minister I mean
in this case is the Minister who will not, in future,
be responsible for broadcasting and television.

The right thing for that Minister to have done
was to resign. This Committee heard itself that the
Prime Minister took it upon himself to split the
Ministry in two. The Prime Minister ought to
know that we should know I understand that the
Prime Minister can fly well, he can wear old
clothes well, he can drive a bus well, he can do
all of those things. My most recent information
is as to how well he can drive motor cars, but
we do not have any information whatsoever that the
Prime Minister is fitted, temperamentally or other-
wise, to be at the head of anything in the Ministry
of Education. Therefore, we will find that under
the Prime Minister in future, finance will be receiv-
ing less and less of his attention, and broadcasting
according to our information, will not receive
any of his attention at all. The Prime Minister
cannot pay any attention to broadcasting and tele-
vision, not even to be used, except for preaching
the policy of his Party. If it is to be used exclusive-
ly for that, it is a different matter; but how can
you today, if you are an educated person I may
say that throughout the world today, radio and tele-
vision are being used for the mass education of
the people. There are textbooks on this, Mr. Chair-
man, for the benefit of both Ministers of Education,
and it is the height of stupidity to attempt to
divorce broadcasting and television from education
as such.
1.45 p.m.
How you can succeed with it, I do not know.
It is a question of how much either of the hon.
members cares to what extent the public will
benefit. We have not seen that the Minister of Ed-
ucation has done enough research for himself,
and, above all, we can argue we know that the
curriculum at each and every school in this Island








1934


ought to be geared and designed to afford oppor-
tunities for laying the foundation of good citizen-
ship.

Mr. Chairman, I have to make mention of some-
thing which I am sure I will be referring to in a
subsequent matter which we hope will be dealt
with today in this House. In the Ministry of Educa-
tion today there is nothing at all at any stage I
repeat at any stage that you can call good human
relationships at any level. I am telling you right
now that even some of the officers, who remained
last Wednesday at the Ministry with the Minister
to interview people, are not in truth and in fact
with him. They are not approving of his actions,
because all they are doing is remaining open and
inviting people to come and blackmail school teach-
ers. That is what it amounts to.

Here you will find, and I hope that they will
not attempt this with the staff at the Community
College, they invite people to come behind the
backs of the staff to make all sorts of reports,
but at no stage is a member of the staff confronted
by his accuser at any time. That is the kind of ill
behaviour carried on by the Minister. An honest
teacher does his work and goes home; but after
he has gone done his job, somebody will go to the
Ministry between five or seven, or some ungodly
hour, sit down in some cosy corner behind some
door, and tell the Minister all sorts of things about
a teacher who has done an honest job during the
day.

As I have said, the week following, the teachers
against whom a complaint has been laid is not given
an opportunity to deny, inthe presence of his accuser,
what has been said. Imust ask: What dirtiness is this
now to be associated with education? We are satisfied
that the Minister of Education- not the one for Broad-
casting and Television is passing through a stage of.
confusion. In his confounded moments we finda great-
er accumulation of human suffering; we find great-
er disregard for the expertise that is available to the
Hon. Minister, and we find a willingness and an eag-
erness and determination to promote self rather than
to promote the interests of the people of this coun-
try. I mean the people who need education most and
would stand to benefit most; the people who would be
glad and are yearning for an opportunity to be taught.




Mr. Chairman, I feel that, before this Resolution
is put to the vote, I will be addressing you at greater
length, because you will see here in this Staff List
that provision is beingmade for a Laboratory Tech-
nician. What we would like to hear from the Hon.
Minister is this. Is this a case where, as in the old
days, you will be employing a leader-boy to lead a
mule without a coachman? Provision is made for a
Laboratory Technician. Is he going to be the head of
the Science Teaching Staff? That is all we want to
know.
1.55 p.m.


We might eventually findthat a Resolution is also
brought to make provision for other members of
.Staff as well, and it might be that the Minister in this
case, like in all others connected with his Government
is starting before he is ready. We feel that the Min-
ister would certainly be willing to jump to his feet
and tell us if there is a case where this staff list is
complete, or if there are plans afoot for him to come
back to this House asking us to vote money for Spe-
cialist staff to be the Seniors to the ones whom we
have here as Juniors. We cannot and willnot sit idly
by and allow the country's educational system to be
destroyed by these self seekers, these self aggrandi-
sers. There are enough institutions already at work,
Mr. Chairman. I cannot and should not forget the
Girls' Industrial Union in this Island. I should not
forget what the Institution has done for young girls
in this country. Ithas equipped many a girl from many
long years past, and these girls have taken their right
ful places in Commerce in this Island. They taught
Bookkeeping, Shorthand, Typewriting and Domestic
Science among other subjects. All of these institutions
have been available in the past; they have helped us,
and it is not now right thatwe should so turn our backs
on them. We feel that in the establishing of this Com-
munity College all these institutions should have been
co-opted, and see in what respect we could draw on
them to help to build it up. I would bet you, Sir, that
not one person who has given of his labour and time
during the past years for nothing to help equip these
girls through the Girls' Industrial Union stands the
ghost of a chance.

SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Mr. CHAIRMAN left the Chair and Mr. SPEAKER
took the Chair.

Mr. SPEAKER: In view of the hour, this sitting
now stands suspended until 2.30 p.m. o' clock.
On Resumption.
Mr. YEARWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I observe that
there is no quorum, and ask that you direct the Clerk
to ring the Bell.


Mr. SPEAKER: Let the Bell be rung.

The bell was rung and a quorum was obtained.


QUESTION TIME


Mr. SPEAKER: When last Question Time was
being taken, Question 184 was being discussed. That
was in the name of the hon. senior member for St.
James, and certain supplementaries were being asked
when Question Time ended.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, as a sup-
plementary on this question, is the importation of
these artificial sweeteners liable to importlicensing
of any sort?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker;
importation is by licence.








1935


Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Can the Minister give
the names of the applicants who have this year made
application for the import of artificial sweeteners
containing cyclamates?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, for the in-
formation of the hon. senior member for St. Thomas,
I would not remember off hand. If he would table a
question, I would be happy to give him the reply.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minis -
ter could tell us if Bim Beverages Limited applied
for a licence to import.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Bar-
bados Beverages Limited has been granted an import
licence for, I think, five gallons, as far as I can re-
member.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Has the Minister drawn
to the attention of Barbados Beverages Limited the
report from the Director of Medical Services to the
effect that these artificial sweeteners are dangerous
or can be dangerous?

The Minister evidently does not want to answer
the question. What has the Minister done inrespect
of this import licence? Has he granted it?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Ihave already answered
that question, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member asked
if Bim Beverages has applied for a licence and I
told him "yes". They applied for a licence and were
granted a licence. How many times would he like me
to answer the same question?

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if at the time
of granting the licence, the Minister was aware of the
fact that cyclamates can be dangerous to the health of
the Community.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, cycla-
mates are in various forms, and scientists have claim -
ed some to be dangerous and some not to be dangerous.
There was an article issued up to March from the
United States Health Department that cyclamates are
quite harmless provided they are used only in cases
of diabetic persons, and it shouldbe clearly stated on
the label that the drink is not made from sugar, that
it contains artificial sweeteners and should be used for
specific purposes such as diabetic persons, etc.


Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Has the Minister asked
Bim Beverages Limited for safeguards that the cycla -
mates are only going into their diabetic drinks, and
not into the ordinary drinks being offeredto the Bar-
badian public?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker. It
should be written on a labelled form on the diet-rite
drink as distinct from any other drink. In other words,
all drinks thatare used and contain cyclamates should
be labelled, branded and specially declared as a drink
containing cyclamates, and should be specifically
used by people suffering from diabetes.


Mr. HINDS: Is the Minister aware that the British
Government, after receiving reports from scientists
in the United States, Japan and West Germany, recom-
mended that cyclamates could be used provided they
were not consumed at a greater rate than 3.5 grams
a day by an adult?
2.35 p.m.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: No, Mr. Speaker, I could
not say to what extent it would be injurious to persons,
but I know that it is not recommended for persons
other than diabetics. I could not say to what quantities.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: What form of control,
if any, does the Minister have to ensure that these
cyclamates do not go into any Bim Beverage drinks?
What form of control is there?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: The sameformof con-
trol that I would have to see that they would not go
into Coca-Cola or any other drink.

Mr. HINDS: I will ask the Minister this: Can the
Minister tell us if cyclamates are imported for use
in bread, cakes or any such roll by any of the bakeries
or businesses in this Island?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: No, Mr. Speaker, I
would not be able to say.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that I cannot regard
that as a proper supplementary question in any event.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, in the
light of the Report of the Director of Medical Ser-
vices, will the Minister give an undertaking that in
future the importation of these drugs of doubtful
safety will be forbidden until the situation is made
clearer by scientists in the big countries concerned?


Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I have made it specifi-
cally clear already, Mr. Speaker, that in the case of
any drink containing cyclamates used as an artificial
sweetener, it must be written distinctly and clearly
with a particularly registered brand. Outside of that,
I have no other information or I cannot have any other
control over it more than knowing the quantity which
came into the Island in relation to artificially sweet-
ened drinks, and to keep a checkon the amount which
can be produced from the concentrate, to the best of
my knowledge, as a control over the issuing of licences.

Mr. HINDS: I would like to know from the Min-
ister if the Bim Diet-rite drink is a squash or a
mineral drink.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I am afraid that I am
not familiar enough with the processing of aerated
waters or other drinks.
CONSTRUCTION OF BATH AND
LATRINE AT WESTMORELAND

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 182, standinginthe
name of the hon. senior member for St. James, page
12 top left-hand column.









1936


Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the ap-
propriate Minister:-

Will the Minister cause a bath and latrine to be
constructed at Westmoreland, St. James, for the use
of the inhabitants of the said district?

Hon. C. E. TALMA: The Reply to thehon. mem-
ber's question is as follows:-

Consideration will be given to the siting of a
bath at Westmoreland when the next programme for
rural amenities is being examined.

Mr. HINDS: When will the programme be exam-
ined? What time is that? (A PAUSE). Mr. Speaker I am
enquiring from the Minister when will the next pro-
gramme for rural amenities be examined?

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Speaker, in answer to
the hon. member, I want just to draw this to his at-
tention. The rural amenities vote has suffered im-
mensely as a result of the sporadic number of cane
fires which we have had during this year, so that the
Rural Amenities Fund has been depleted. The Labour
Welfare Fund has also been depleted, with the result
that fewer houses will be built, and that we will have
less money available and fewer of these amenities
will be constructed. I have only given that in a gen-
eral way, so that with regard to the question as to
when the next scheme or programme will be consider-
ed, I will have, first of all, to find out what money is
available. I am not in a position to answer that right
now.

Mr. HINDS: Should the Minister not have found
out what money was available before he answered the
question asked by the hon. senior member for St.
James?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Can't the Minister in a
matter affecting the health of the community, not yet
get the Minister of Finance to send down a supple -
mentary amount? Is not that the obvious thing to do?

Hon. C. E. TALMA: If the hon. member wants to
know what is the state of the Rural Amenities Fund,
that can be put in the form of a substantive question.
It is from that source that money is made available
for these amenities. That can be the subject matter of
a separate and independent question. If the hon. mem-
ber wants to ask that question, he is at liberty to do
so.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I will repeat my ques-
tion. The Minister has said explicitly how the funds
have been depleted, thereby intimating at least that
that is the reason for not teing able forthwith, or at
an early date, to do what the hon. senior member for
St. James has asked. I have asked a simple ques-
tion. If the funds have been depleted because of cane
fires or for whatever reason, is it nota very simple
-thing to bring that to the notice of the Minister of
Finance and ask him to bring dorn a supplementary
amount for which all of us would vote without
hesitation?


Hon. C. E. TALMA: I will take note of that sug-
gestion, but I have merely stated what I have stated
by virtue of the fact that there are certain sites which
have been selected already for public conveniences,
playing fields and so on. It has been recently stated
and drawn to my attention that the Rural Amenities
Fund has been depleted, and we may not be able to
get ahead as quickly as we would like to do with some
of these playing fields and other facilities. However,
I accept the suggestion that funds should be made
available from other sources in order to implement
a programme such as this which is vitally
necessary.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I very much thank the
hon. member.

HARDSHIP EXPERIENCED BY FISHERMEN
RE SALE OF FISH

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 166, standing in the
name of the hon. junior member for St. John. That is
on page 7, bottom right-hand column.

Mr. YEARWOOD: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the
appropriate Minister:-

Is the Minister aware of the hardship experienced
by fishermen from time to time in the sale of their
catches of fish?

Will the Minister see to it that the storage space
for fish is increased at the Barbados Marketing Cor-
poration so that fishermen may receive a guaranteed
price for their catches?

In the alternative, will the Minister consider the
removal of the Item "Fresh Fish" from the Scheduled
prices of the Price Control Order?
2.45 p.m.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, the reply
to Question No. 166 is as follows:-

1. No, Sir. Fishermen have not experienced
any hardships in selling their catches of fish.

2. The Barbados Marketing Corporation has
available 160 tons of storage space for fish and this
space is considered adequate to present needs. Fish-
ermen are paid .guaranteed prices bythe Corporation
for various types of fish.

3. It is not considered appropriate to remove
the item "Fresh Fish" from the scheduled prices of
the Price Control Order.
Mr. YEARWOOD: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister
state the control price of flying fish?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, the con-
trol price of flying fish is ex-beach 70, or ex-boat or
market 80.
Mr. YEARWOOD: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister
state the price that is being paid to fishermen per
pound of flying fish by the B.M.C.?








1937


Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, the price
paid by the Barbados Marketing Corporation for
fresh fish is 150 per pound, and it would take about
3 1/2 fish on the average to weigh a pound. Fish is
bought by the pound rather than having to count the
fish, which would take up more time. You will have to
select three fish actually to weigh a pound, but the
normal thing is 3 1/2 fish to weigh a pound.

Mr. YEARWOOD: Mr. Speaker, canthe Minister
tell this House at what price the B. M. C. retail their
fish per pound?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, fish, after
being processed by the Marketing Corporation, is sold
at 100 a piece frozen, and this price continues through -
out the entire area.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, will the
Minister say what he means by processing? Does he
mean just putting fish in the refrigerator?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, I do not
mean filleting and boning. It is the same whole fish
in the same condition in which it has been bought,
without filleting and boning. It is just frozen and sold
at 10 0 each. I think it is 12 0 each if the fish is fil-
leted. Fish in the same condition but just frozen is
sold at 100.

Mr. YEARWOOD: Mr. Speaker, could the Minis-
ter tell us whether there is any controlprice on fro-
zen fish?

Hon. G. 0. FERGUSSON: No, Mr. Speaker. The
control price is on fresh fish. Fish on ice is con-
sidered the same. Iced fish would be considered the
same as fresh fish as separate and distinct from
frozen fish.

Mr. YEARWOOD: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister
state why he finds it not proper to remove the control
price of fish?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, a com-
modity such as fresh fish, scheduled at 8 0 a piece,
and which on occasions has dropped as low as 30,
would be considered by one that there is no need for
control prices; but one who is accustomed to the man-
ner in which fish is sold in Barbados, would see that,
if one takes the control price off fish, the sky would
be the limit and the poorest people would have to pay
the highest prices for fish. One should watch the pat-
tern of the sale of fish in Barbados. As soon as there
is a glut of fish, the people who are financially better
off and have refrigerators will buy a lot of fish, and
this is one of the reasons that the normal day-to-day
sales actually drop. After a glut, for possibly two or
three days, you will find that the sales are far less
because the people who would have bought fish from
day to day have stored up a large supply, and then
it is a matter of scarcity even with control prices. The
poorer classes have absolutely no means of storing
fish. During the glut period they can onlyget a belly
full from day to day, whereas people of better finan-
cial means can afford to buy fish and store them up.
When there is a scarcity of fish, the poorer the people


are, the more they have to pay for fish, because they
have no means of storing fish. This is the main rea-
son, Mr. Speaker, why I feel that the control price
should remain.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I under-
stood the Jon. Minister right in reply to the first part
of the Question: "Is the Minister aware of the hard-
ship experienced by fishermen from time to time in
the sale of their catches of fish?" I wonder if the
Minister would really tell this House that he is not
aware of the fact that, when there is a glut, fisher-
men had to throw some of their catches back into the
sea when the fish was not accepted at the B.M.C.?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, that has
not been true during this season. Prior to this season
the only space that was available for storage of flying
fish was about forty tons, because most of the space
was then occupied by the shrimp industry. We com-
pleted for this season fresh storage space for the
shrimp industry, and now we have, instead of 40 tons
storage space for fish, 160 tons, and at no time during
this season was fish refused. In other words, the Mar-
keting Corporation at all times during the hours of
opening up to 10 p.m. at night was open and they
never refused any fish. Any fish that would have been
refused by the Marketing Corporation would have to
be after ten o' clock at night, or else the condition of
the fish was not up to standard.

I should like to make it clear that fish could be
all right for immediate, consumption, but you require
the very highest quality for processing. Although fish
might not be bad, it might not be up to a standard
suitable for freezing say, in the month of May for a
holdover to the month of November. One has to be
very careful in selecting fish for processing, and
must ensure that one has the very best quality.

I would say that last season and the season before,
the Marketing Corporation had to limit their supplies
in buying because they did not have the storage room,
or might not have been able to dispose of the fish.The
United Kingdom is one of the potential markets for
buying whole fish. There are several markets all
over the world for filleted fish, but there is no me-
chanism for filleting and handling fish. It is just the
women handling fish, and we cannot process more than
about ten thousand fish per day, which is a very small
amount on the overall purchase of fish that can be
bought in a day. The United Kingdom Market is the
only market that is purchasing whole fish just as it
comes in processed by freezing. I am perfectly sure
that during this season there was no hardship to fish-
ermen. The storage space was filled. In other words,
they must have used about 110 tons of the cold storage
space this season, but I am sure we did not go up to
full capacity.
2.55. p.m.



Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Min-
ister would be able to tell us if there is any method
for determining good quality fishfrombadqualityfor
the purpose of processing.








1938


Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Certainly, Mr. Speaker.
The hon. member should know that; as soon as fish
begins to show any signs of decay, discoloration,
colour of eyes, looks of gills and whether or not
they are soft. He would realise that the quality of
fish today is of a lower standard than it has been
years ago. Prior to the introduction of powered boats
and gill nets when boats operated as open boats
where by virtue of design water came in and kept
the fished washed, and the sails formed a certain
amount of ventilation for fresh air coming down,
the fish were kept much better, as compared with
the use of gill nets today where they are choked
in the netting and you have to pull them out, the
tissues are broken and they would not stand up
for as long a time as fish that were taken up in
the deep net. They become soft, the scales are
removed, and any person with any experience of
fish can look on a catch and actually tell if they
are bad because they would be soft and turning yel-
low, with eyes turned up and that sort of thing.
It is quite easy to be discerned.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, did the Minister
tell us that the Marketing Corporation buys fish
pound-wise at 5 cents each, freezes them and sell-
ing them pound-wise at 10 cents?


Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: No, Mr. Speaker.
They buy pound-wise for the purpose of not having
the count. In other words, they have containers;
you fill a container and weigh it and pay 15 cents
per pound. The 10 cents to which I referred is 10
cents each. After they are processed and frozen,
they sell them at 10 cents each, but they buy at 150
cents per pound.

Mr. HINDS: I understand the Minister to say
that 3 1/2 fish make a pound, and that is why I
asked the Minister if they bought them at 5 cents
each, froze them and sold them at 10 cents each.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I have mentioned to
the hon. junior member for St. Peter that the
purchase is per pound and that a little over three
fish make a pound. In other words, it would work
out to about 41/2 cents to 43/4 cents each. It is less
then five cents because you have to have three
selected fish. If you pick three of the largest fish,
you might get three weighing a pound, but on the
overall it would be about 3 1/2 fish on the average
to the pound, which would be 4 1/2 cents a piece,
and that is approximately what they purchase them
at. They are then sold at 10 cents each. That applies
to fish that have not been filleted, since fish that
have been filleted are sold at 12 cents each.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, the situation then
seems worse. What I am asking the Minister is this;
am I to understand that the Marketing Corporation
buys fish at an average of 41/2 cents each and all
they do is to freeze them and sell themat 10 cents
each?
Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
Those fish that are sold at 10 cents have only


been blast-frozen. They are washed off, go through
the freezer and than stored and sold at 10 cents
each. I would like to draw to the attention of the
hon. junior member for St. Peter that it might
seem a high price at the beginning, but unless
you schedule and then step up te price, you
would be selling at a close margin, because the fish
that would be sold in November or at the close
of this season would be fish caught about May. You
do not just freeze them and leave them there; you
have to keep your cold storage running to keep
the temperatures up. It is just like commercial
cold storage where you store at so much per pound
per month, and after 28 or 30 days you have got
to pay for another month; so if your fish is usually
stored in May, there would be one price for June,
another for July, one for August, one for September,
one for October. In order to level that off, there
is a fixed and standing price of 10 cents each.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask
the Minister if the Marketing Corporation loses any
money in its fish processing section, considering
that they buy fish at 4 1/4 cents, freeze then and
sell them at a profit of 5 1/2 cents.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, I could
not say exactly, but I doubt very much unless
they run into difficulites with bad fish. I could not
see that on a commodity like fish bought at even
5 cents a piece and sold at 10 cents, with the
qauntities that could be bought, the Corporation
could lose money unless the entire batch of fish
had gone bad. No commercial enterprise could tell
me that they could lose money on that.




Mr. HINDS: We understood the Minister to say
that there is now 160 tons of freezing space. Has
that 160 tons of space ever been used up?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: No, Mr. Speaker. This
is the first season we have had 160 tons of space.
Prior to this, all we had was 40 tons. Up to last
year all the room available for storage was in
the vicinity of 40 tons, because most of the
other space was used for storage and handling of
shrimp. Now we have a new processing plant for
the shrimp with its own blast-freezers and storage
capacity, and that is one of the reasons why we built
that to have sufficient room to go back as or-
iginally planned for the fishing industry. This is
room that originated with the building of the Mar-
keting Corporation for the fishing industry, but
it was used for shrimping as a direct concern.
Now we have put in special accommodation for the
shrimping, and 160 tons of space have now fallen
back to the fishing industry, but this is the year
and we have not had supplies to the extent to use
160 tons.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I would like to con-
gratulate the Minister for giving such full and lucid
answers to the questions put to him. I never thought
I would live to see a Minister from the other side








1939


answering so fully. It shows that the Hon. Minister
has really made a proper study of the fishing
industry in order to answer at any rate-if not
before the questions put by the member for St.
John. Now that he has told us that phasing of prices
should in his opinion be done, will he give us the
assurance that he will do it? I know perhaps I
should not add this because I see the hon. member,
inspite of the great activity of his colleague on
his right to try to stop him from answering ques -
tions and I know the hon. member will answer
- but will he give us the assurance that he will go into ,
this question,, because there are several complaints
from people that the Marketing Corporation sells
at a higher price than they need sell and yet make,
a profit?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, I assure
the hon. junior member for St. Joseph that I have
always been frank about this matter and I am still
a bit worried about certain things up to the present;
but I have just been watching the movements of it.
One of the things that the Marketing Corporation
will do, Mr. Speaker, is to stabilise. In other words,
the Marketing Corporation will not be able to buy
a fish in this Island unless the catches are suffi-
cient that the prices drop below 5 cents. The Mar-
keting Corporation only forms a stabiliser to induce
the wholesalers who come to the market to buy fish
to give them that guaranteed price. In other words,
the guaranteed price by the Marketing Corportion
keeps it up to a certain time at night at prices
above the guaranteed price.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared
to hold up this House with many more supplemen-
taries, but I am a bit baffled at the reply the Min-
ister gave me just now to a supplementary I asked.
The Minister said that there is a method of determ-
ining good quality from bad quality fish. I am under
the impression that it would necessarily mean you
would have to examine each fish. Is that done or is
there a method of determine the quality otherwise?
3.05 p.m.


Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: No, there is no method.
There is an experienced fisherman there himself who
looks after the purchasing, and on the general run
of the fish, he would be able to tell. In other words,
if you leave fish exposed to sunlight, they lose that
blue gloss and they become a very dark, rough blue
and yellowish under the belly; but you would get
the occasional fish where you will find that the
gills strip, through pulling them through the gill
net. You might find, after they have been bought,
that there are one or two which you might have to
reject, but it is just a general principle.



Mr. HINDS: Does the Minister not consider
the processing cost to be rather high? It is five
cents for each flying fish. The Minister calls it
freezing processing and I very much like to adopt
that term. Does he not consider the cost of pro-
cessing rather high five cents for one flying fish I


Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker,
a fish for five cents, and if it is frozen, there is
no control price on frozen fish. You can freeze
these fish in about two hours, and in two hours,
freezing the very fish for which you have paid
five cents would bring ten cents according to the
very question which the hon. member has asked.
I consider that fairly high; but it is then I have
got to consider the long-term storage of possibly
from May, with some of these fish, down to Novem-
ber and December in the same year before they
are actually sold. But I would say that five cents,
if you take it in comparison with commercial storage
would he high. It would be somethinglike a penny
or three cents a pound for about twenty-eight
days' storage. It is a penny or three cents, I am
not sure, per pound per month.

COMMISSIONER GENERAL'S EXPENSES TO
CANADA RE EXPO' 67

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 188 standing in
the mane of the hon. senior member for St. James.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the
appropriate Minister:-

Will the Minister state the total amount of
money paid to the Commissioner General for Bar-
bados and Guyana as subsistence allowance during
his trips to Canada in connection with Expo' 67 and
the rate per day of such allowance?

2. Will the Minister srate the total cost
to this Government of the hotel and other accom-
modation paid on behalf of the Commissioner Gen-
eral for Barbados and Guyana during his trips to
Canada in connection with Expo' 67?

3. Were the monies paid in respect of the
said accommodation additional to or included in the
subsistence allowances above referred to?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: The Reply to the hon.
member's question is as follows:-

1. The total amount of money paid to the
Commissioner General for Barbados and
Guyana as subsistence allowance during
his trips to Canada in connection with Expo'
67 is $9,438.13 at the rate of $25,00 (Cana-
dian) per day.

2. The total cost to this Government of hotel
and other accommodation on behalf of the
Commissioner General for Barbados and
Guyana in connection with Expo' 67 was
$4,060.50.

3. The amount paid in respect of accommo-
dation in not included in the subsistence.
allowance."

Mr. J. M. G. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, was the ac-
commodation in a hotel or flat or other similar
accommodation specially rented?









1940


Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: A partof the accommo-
dation was in a hotel and at a certain point it was
in an apartment.



Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Who occupied the
apartment when Mr. Morgan was not in it?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Unfortunately, Iwas not
at Expo' 67 occupying the flat. I could not say; I
was in Barbados with the senior member for St.
Thomas.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, the Minister said in
reply to the question that the sum of $9,438.13
was the expenditure. Is this B. W. I. currency
or Canadian?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: That would be in
B. W. I. dollars. I have quoted the $25 in Canada
and that was in Canadian dollars, but the entire
amount of $9,438.13 would be in West Indian dollars.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Will the Minister
state whether this apartment was rented by the
occasion, so to speak, or rented by the month or
taken for six months or what?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, would
the hon, member ask that question again? I did not
hear it.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am sorry. I was
asking the hon. member if he could say whether
this apartment was rented for the occasion, when
it was known that Mr. Morgan was going up, or
by the month, or for six months or what?
At this stage, it is now being 3.15. p.m. of the Clock.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that Question Time
has now expired. This Question will remain on the
Order Paper. We have now come to Private Members'
Business.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: With great respect,
I suggest to Your Honour that if we consider that;
Private Members' Business is not as important:
as continuing with Questions, Your Honour should
allow an extension of Question Time. It is in Your
Honour's hands. It is notorious that whenever the
clock in the French Senate is beginning to approach
the hour, the hands are put back with the general ap-
proval of the Senate in order that you might continue
a debate which everybody wants continued.

Mr. SPEAKER: If only the hands of the Clock
had been put back today, I would have been in a
similarly happy position, but I am afraid that I
regard my hands as being tied by the Standing
Orders.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: This is Private Mem-
bers' Time, and if Private Members say that they
prefer to go on with Question Time rather than


go on with last year's Budget debate, if that non-
sense? Surely, if we say in our time that we want
to deal with this question rather than the Budget
debate, are we not entitled to have the House agree?


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I understated.
(ASIDES.)

Mr. SPEAKER: I would like to hear the hon.
member who is now standing.



EXTENSION OF QUESTION TIME FOR HALF HOUR

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I understand from my
colleague that he has one or two more Replies and
in this case it is all right with me. If hon. members
wish to go on for another half an hour, I will make
the appropriate motion. As a matter of fact, it
should not be for me to move it al all. (ASIDES.)
I beg to move that Question Time be now exteded
for half an hour. (CHEERS).

Hon. C. E. -TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. SPEAKER: The Question is that Question
Time be now extended for half an hour from now.
Hon. members who are in favour of that will please
say "Aye" (MEMBERS: "Aye"). I can hardly hear
myself for the applause. Hon. members who are of
a contrary opinion will please say "No". I think
the "Ayes" have it. Accordingly Question Time is
extended for a period of thirty minutes.
3.15

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, in reply
to the hon. junior member for St. Joseph, there is
nothing I can find at present in the file to indicate
for what period, or manner, the flat was engaged
but I would promise the hon. member, if he would
table a question, that Iwould supply himwith the
information. There is nothing on the file about that.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Again I thank the hon.
member for his forthrightness.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, is the
cost of $9,438.13 the cost to Barbados, or the whole
cost?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, I figure
that would be the entire cost to Barbados, the total
amount of money paid to the Commissioner General
for Barbados and Guyana; so the $9,438.13 would be
the full amount of which Barbados would contribute
one-half. It would be a fifty-fifty arrangement be-
tween Barbados and Guyana.


Mr. J. M. G.M. ADAMS: Well, the approximately
200 days spent by Mr. Morgan in Canada at our
expense was spent on a continuous period, or how
many periods were involved?








1941


Hon. G. G, FERGUSSON: I cannot say exactly
how many days were involved, but it was definite -
ly not continuous.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, how
many days did Mr. Morgan have to get up off his
bottom, to use, his own phrase, and go to Canada:
in connection with this?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, if I am
not mistaken,, a reply was given to that at some
previous time. I have po information here as to the
exact, amount of days. I have no record here the
various dates that he would have been at one place
or another, but I cannot say how many days were
actually spent in Canada, or what intervals elapsed
between his coming back to Barbados.

MR. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: What was the first
date he went to Canada, and what was the last
date?

Hon., G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, on
the subsistence and travelling allowances here,
a table has been set out. I see first September 20 -
23, 1965, 4 .days. This would be the first day of
arrival' there,, as I can figure from the file, and
the last would have been on- the 20th October,
1967. That is the last date on the file. I would
presume that this amount would have been spent
between the period September 20th 1965, and Oc-
tober 20 1967.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister
tell us for how much time the Hotel was rented,
and for how much time the apartment was rented?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, in reply
to the hon. junior member for St. Joseph, I told
him that I could not say exactly what length of time,
or under what condition, the apartment was hired;
but if he would table a Question, I would be glad to
give him the information.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: What was the rent for
the, apartment?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I see here that the apart-
ment was hired for $7,702.33.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Sir, do I understand
the Minister right? $ 9,000 in Mr. Morgan's pocket;
$4,000 for his hotel bills, and now another $7,000 for
an apartment? Can the Minister just repeat the last
figures he gave us?

Hon, G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, I am
quoting from the files:


Subsistence allowance at $25
(Canadian) per day
Accommodation at hotel
Apartment


$9,438.13
$ 418,68
$7,702.33.


Passages then made a total of $24,834.75. That
is exactly as I quote it from the files.


Mr. CRAIG: I understood the Minister to call a
figure of $4,060.60. Now there is $418.68. Which is
right?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: The $4,060 was for the
Government of Barbados and not jointly. The first
reply was the amount of money paid to the Commis-
sioner General for Barbados and Guyana, which would
be $9,438.13. That was the full share between Barba-
dos and Guyana.

The second reply to the second question is the
total cost to this Government for hotel and other ac-
commodation on behalf of the Commissioner General
for Barbados for Expo' 67 which is $4,060.50, which
would have been half. That is Barbados' share.
3.25 p.m.

It would have been double that for Barbados and
Guyana which included the hotel and the flat.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister be
able to state if the accommodation or flight passage
of any of the relatives of the Commissioner General
was paid for?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: What I have here is in
respect of the Commissioner General alone; so I
could not say otherwise. All the expenses I see here
are for the Commissioner General in connection with
his visit to Expo'67.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid the questions refer
only to the Commissioner General.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, does the Minister agree
that hotel and apartment accommodation cost the
Barbados Government alone $11,762.837

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, the figures
as set out are hotel $418.68 and apartment $7,722.33.
Half of that would have been Barbados' share, and that
would have been as far as accommodation and apart-
ment were concerned.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, the figure which the
hon. member gave us for hotel was $4,060.50. Could
he explain that?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, thatwould
be for hotel including apartment. The question asked
for the total amount of money paid to the Commis-
sioner General for Barbados and Guyana, including
subsistence allowance and so on.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, can the
Minister tell us if any watchman or other official was
employed to watch the flat while Mr. Morgan was not
there, and if so, was the watchman male or female?

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid I do not deem that a
proper supplementary.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Will the Minister in view
of the insinuation being made or at least the last insin-
uation, promise this House to go more thoroughly








1942


into this matter? I repeat I have to congratulate.
the Minister on his frankness this afternoon and I
suppose that he will continue. It is far more impor-
tant to us than having laugh or a joke over some
frailty of one of our officials, to be able to tell the
public of' Barbados that money has not been wasted
or misspent, and therefore I promise he willget the
maximum of co-operation such as he may find neces -
sary from members on this side of the House in ex-
posing anything which will eventually fall on his
shoulders. Need I remind hon. members, although
we do not follow the practice, that in England a Min-
ister, if this thing were exposed, would have to resign.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, if any hon.
member on the other side tables any question, it is
my duty to give him full replies and a full report on
it, and I am prepared to do this as I have always
done. As long as they table the questions to suit, I
will make sure that they get the right replies accord-
ing to the questions they ask.

QUESTION RE TRIPS MADE BY
COMMISSIONER GENERAL

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 190 stands in the
name of the hon. senior member for St. James.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, the question reads as
follows:-

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Will the Minister state how many trips were
made by the Commissioner General for Barbados
and Guyana in his capacity as such (a) from Barbados
to Canada and (b) within Canada itself in connection
with Expo' 67?

2. Will the Minister state the cost of such
trips?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, the Reply
is as follows:-

"1. (a) In his capacity as Commissioner Gen-
eral for Barbados and Guyana at Expo' 67 the Com-
missioner General made sixteen (16) trips to Canada.

(b) the Commissioner General made no trips
within Canada in connection with Expo' 67.

2. Total cost of the trips was $7,192.91 Barba-
dos' share being $3,596.46."

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, did Barbados pay or
have to pay for any trips the Commissioner General
made within Canada?





Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, the reply
to that is contained in the answer to Part (b) of Ques-
tion 1. The Commissioner made no trips within Can-
ada in connection with Expo' 67.


QUESTION RE JETTY AT CONSETT BAY

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 199 stands in the
name of the hon. junior member for St. John.

Mr. YEARWOOD: Mr. Speaker, the Question
reads as follows:-

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Is the Minister aware that the piles supporting the
jetty at Consett Bay, St. John, are in an advanced state
of erosion and constitute a hazard to users of the said
jetty?

2. Will the Minister take immediate steps to
have the jetty repaired and this hazard removed?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, the Reply
is as follows:-

"1. Yes, Sir.

2. Reconstruction of the jetty at Consett Bay,
St. John will commence shortly."
3.35 p.m.

JOURNEYS BY GOVERNMENT MINISTERS
ON B. W. I. A.

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 171, standing in the
name of the hon. and learned senior member for St.
Thomas. Page 8 bottom right-hand column.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, to enquire
of the Prime Minister :-

1. How many journeys have been made by Min-
isters of Government or Civil Servants travelling at
Government expense on British West Indian Airways
from January 1st, 1968 to date ?

2. Were these journeys booked and paid for
through a Travel Agency and if so, which?

3. Will the Government make an investigations
to whether the Agency or Agencies, if any, referred
to in paragraph 2 above paid British West Indian Air-
ways the legal fares as set out in their Licence for
the travelling concerned, or whether the higher and
allegedly unlawful fares charged by British West
Indian Airways since the devaluation of the pound
sterling were in fact paid by the Agency or Agencies?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, the Reply to
the hon. member's Question is as follows:-

"1. Twenty-four.

2. They were booked and paid for through
Dacosta's Travel Bureau and Jemmott's Travel
Service.

3. No, Sir. The Government is responsible only
for ensuring that payment for passages used by its
representatives is made to the persons through whom








1943


he passages are booked and by whom the bills for
those passages are submitted. The Government can-
not be concerned in any arrangements made between
an airline and a travel agent for payment by one to
the other for services rendered by the agency for the
airline."

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Is the Minister aware
that the Prime Minister has said that British West
Indian Airways will be prosecuted if they charge the
higher and allegedly unlawful fares: and if so, is the
Government not then abrogating its responsibility if,
in fact, British West Indian Airways have been paid
the unlawful fares for the travel of Government
Ministers?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I will answer that by saying
that the Prime Minister certainly did express that
view, but, as far as I know, he himself cannot initiate
prosecutions.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Is it not shutting your
eyes to the truth when you say that you are going to
refuse to investigate something because you know
very well that British West Indian Airways have been
paid the extra fare? It is not shutting your eyes to the
truth when the Government refuses to investigate this
matter? Of course, higher fares have been paid by the
Travel Agencies.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I do not quite agree with the
hon. member. So far as I know, the Government does
not pay them.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, will the
Minister agree that it is not the point as to whether
the Government has paid or not? The point is whether
British West Indian Airways have broken the law, as
the Prime Minister said, and if the Government's
money has contributed to the breaking of the law,
should not the Government make an investigation?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I cannot accept the hon. mem-
ber's point that the Government's money has contri-
buted to the breaking of the law. I just cannot accept
that because the facts are against it.
Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, let me
put it in the simplest words in which I can put it for
the benefit of the Hon. Minister. I will give him the
benifit of the doubt and assume that he does not
understand. What has been asked in this question is:
Will the Government make an investigation as to
whether the law has been broken by certain Travel
Agencies in connection with Government travel?
That is a summary of part 3 of the Question and the
Minister has refused to do that. Will the Minister
now make an investigation? I can state that I am re-
liably informed that the Travel Agencies, in fact, are
carrying the difference between what the Government
pays them and what B. W. I. A. charges; therefore,
the Government's money is beingpartly used to com-
mit what the Prime Minister has said is a criminal
offence. Will the Minister, in the light of that, re-
consider what he has said?
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: The hon. member may think
that I am silly, and perhaps I am; but I really cannot


follow his argument. If, for the sake of argument,
a fare is ten dollars a newfare is fixed at $10, but
the Government is determined only to pay on the
basis of the old fare structure which may have been
eight dollars, and the hon. member tells me that the
Government pays $8 and the Travel Agents carried
the $2 and he infers from that that the Government
is contributing to the breach of the law, I must tell
him quite frankly that I do not see it in that way.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: The hon. member says
that perhaps he is stupid. I do not think that he could
be so stupid. He is doing somethingelse;he is guilty
of something else. When he said.thata fare of ten
dollars is fixed, is it not worse than specious to say
whether that fare of $10 is legal or illegal? That is the
whole point. If the fare is $8 and you fix it at $10,
therefore could anything be more specious? And the
hon. member claims to have read logic at the Uni-
versity.......

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that that could not
arise supplementarily.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: It arises from the fact
that I am suggesting that it is a specious argument to
use, and one would not associate that with anybody who
had claimed, however rightly or wrongly, to have
studied logic.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: My logic was tenuous enough,
and it is even more tenuous since the Hon. Leader
of the Opposition has intervened. As I understand it,
the hon. and learned senior member for St. Thomas
is saying that the Government by not either protesting
or instituting prosecutions is itself conniving at a
breach of the law. I take it that that is the hon. mem-
ber's argument. My answer to that is this: (a) that
the Government itself is in no way breaking the law
because it is paying what it has always paid and (b)
that if the law is breached, there is an appropriate
Authority to discover that breach and to take steps
to punish it. I do not think that the Government could
be held responsible for that.
Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS and Mr. J. M. G. M.
ADAMS rose to speak.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that there are two
hon. members on their feet and both caught my eye
simultaneously. I therefore give the preference to
the hon. and learned Leader of the Opposition.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Does the hon. member
suggest that it is no partofthe duties of the Attorney
General to prosecute? He says that it is no part of the
Government duties to prosecute. Does not the Govern-
ment include the Attorney General.
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: The hon. member must know
that I am a bit too old to be caught in that trap. The
Attorney General of this Island has no responsibility
whatever for prosecutions and I may quote the hon.
member now and say that no competent in fact, I
will not. (Laughter.)
Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: That is not funny, ex-
cept to the hon. members on the hon. member's right
and some of us......









1944


Mr. SPEAKER: Actually, it should now be the
hon. and learned senior member for St. Thomas
speaking, but he seems to be otherwise engaged.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I did not finishthe sen-
tence. I was about to say that those who laughed at
the stupidity of the laughter on the other side. I put
this to the hon. member; does he suggest then that
the Attorney General does not take advice from the
Prime Minister as regards prosecutions ? If the
Prime Minister had publicly said that it is illegal,
does he not ask the Attorney General to confirm or
contradict that opinion?
3.45 p.m.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: No, Mr. Speaker. The Attor-
ney General does not take advice from the Prime
Minister, because neither the Prime Minister nor the
Attorney General, being Ministers of the Crown and
therefore politicians, has any authority whatsoever
to interfere in prosecutions. The hon. member knows
that very well.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: The hon. member has
never been in a lunatic asylum. He says the hon. mem-
ber knows that very well. The hon. member tells me
that, because the Attorney General is a Minister of
the Crown and therefore a politician, he has not got
a duty as Attorney General to prosecute in certain
cases. Why does the Attorney General go to the
Court of Grand Sessions, although he is politician?
Does the hon. member think he is talking to an infant
school now? The Learned Prime Minister having said
that this is a breach of the law, does he propose to
make use of his Attorney General to prosecute this
breach of the law where, indirectly, Government funds
are concerned, as the hon. member for St. Thomas
has pointed out?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: The hon. Prime Minister does
not and would not be allowed to, if he wanted to.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that the extended time
has expired, and we shall now revert to Private Mem-
bers' Business. The firstOrder under Private
Members' Business--

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: While Your Honour is
examining the Order Paper, may I ask whathas been
the result of the point of order which I raised relevant
to questions. I understand that some matter may have
been raised by the Clerk concerning his presence
here on Friday afternoon. It is quite untrue, as far
as I am concerned, that the Clerkwas here at a quar-
ter to four when I arrived. I telephoned earlier and
was told he was not here on Friday afternoon last. I
came here and searched for him as other members
of the staff, I believe, may recall, and was referred
to Mr. Hutchinson who would be found in the Senate
Chamber. I telephoned before; I came with the Ques -
tions, and could not find the Clerk, and I was here on
these premises when four o'clock struck. I have the
Questions here now.

Mr. SPEAKER: Now, may I say this: such an
occurrence I deeply deplore, but the fact remains that


the Questions have not been vetted, nor have they
been received by the Clerk for whatever reaon, he
assures me, until today. The matter will receive my
further investigation, and nothing to me is more ob-
jectionable than that the administration of this office
should appear so often to lag so far behind even a
moderate standard of efficiency.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: In that case, Mr.
Speaker, I will ask that my Questions be returned, and
I will re-submit them, in the presence of witnesses,
to the Clerk. I should be glad to have them back from
the Clerk, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. SPEAKER: We are now at Private Members'
Business.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS

BARBADOS ASSOCIATION OF MENTALLY
RETARDED CHILDREN BILL, 1968.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move the
second reading of a Bill to incorporate the Barbados
Association of Mentally Retarded Children.

Mr. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member askingleave
of the House to proceed with Item No. 4 under Pri-
vate Member's Business standing in his name?

Mr. LYNCH: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. junior member for
Bridgetown is asking the leave of the House to pro-

ceed with No. 4, Private Members' Business, stand-
ing in his name. If there is no objection, leave will be
granted. There being no objection, leave was granted
to the hon. junior member for Bridgetown to pro-
ceed with No. 4 standing in his name, and it is to
move the Second reading of a Bill to incorporate the
Barbados Association of Mentally Retarded Children.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Speaker, Ibegto move that this
Bill be now read a second time.

Mr. HOPPIN: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

Mr. SPEAKER: I will askthe followinghon. mem-
bers to serve as members of a Select Committee to
consider this Bill:

The hon. mover of the Bill, the hon. junior mem-
ber for Bridgetown.

The hon. junior member for St. George.

The hon. junior member for Christ Church,
Minister of Health.

The hon. junior member for St. Philip.

The hon. senior member for St. Philip, Parlia-
mentary Secretary,








1945


The hon. senior member for St. James.

If those hon. members agree to serve I observe
no indication that those hon. members are unwilling
to serve I declare the Committee to be so constituted.
3,55 p. m.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Speaker, I am asking leave to
take Order No. 6 standing in my name as the next
Order of the Day under Private Members' Business.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member is asking that
Order No. 6 standing in his name be the next Order
of the Day, and if there is no objection, leave will be
granted for him to proceed.

There being no objection, leave is granted to
the hon. junior member for Bridgetown to proceed
with Order No. 6.

THE LIONS CLUB OF BARBADOS ACT 1968

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move that a
Bill to incorporate the Lions Club of Barbados be now
read a second time.

Mr. HOPPIN: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirma-
tive without division.


Mr. SPEAKER: I will askthe followinghon. mem-
bers if they will serve on the Committee. The hon.
Mover and Seconder, the hon. junior member for
Bridgetown and the hon. junior member for St. George;
the hon. senior member for St. James; the Hon. and
Learned member for Christ Church; the hon. and
gallant member for St. Michael; the Hon. Leader of
the House; and the hon. junior member for St.-John.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order,
who is the hon. and gallant member for St. Michael?
I do not know him.

Mr. SPEAKER: At the earliest opportunity I shall
introduce the hon. senior member for St. Joseph to
the hon. junior member for St. Michael,who,by vir-
tue of his sea captaincy, is entitled, as lawyers are
entitled to their "learned", to his "gallant".

As it appears that those seven hon. members
are willing to serve, I now state that they will con-
stitute this Committee.

Mr. SPEAKER: Item No. 7 is the next Order of
the Day, and that stands in the name of the hon.
senior member for St. Joseph, and it is to resume
debate on the passing of a Resolution requesting the
Government to review theRegulations relative to the
National Insurance and Social Security Act for the
purpose of protecting those workers who were qua-
lified at the qualifying period by paying of the re-
quired amount. When this debate......

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order, I
am sorry to interrupt Your Honour, but we did not
waive the Orders as they stand. What we did was to


allow some to be taken out of place, and therefore I
suggest with the greatest possible respect that we go
back to Order No. 1.

Mr. SPEAKER: Inthe absence of any intimation,
I assumed that the number after "6" would be"7",
but in view of the intimation from the Hon. and Learn-
ed Leader of the Opposition, we will revert to No. 1.
which stands in the name of the Hon. Leader of the
Opposition, and it is to resume debate onthe passing
of a Resolution condemning the Government's finan-
cial proposals for the Fiscal Year 1968-69 as con-
tained in the Financial Statement and Budgetary Pro-
posals made on 2nd July, 1968, by the Hon. Minister
of Finance.

When this debate was adjourned, the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph was speaking.

Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and Mr. DEPUTY
SPEAKER took the Chair.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on the last
occasion I was trying to make a point when time ex-
pired. Now you know, Sir, because I believe you have
read the Budgetary Proposals, that Independence
plays a great part in it, and there were some very
pertinent questions which were being asked just now
relative to Independence. Those hon. members are
trying to point out to the taxpayers of this country the
way in which their taxes were being spent, but it is
only those who are in here this afternoon who would
know what had happened and who were trying to point
out to Government Uat in some cases there is some
wrong spending or over-spending of this money after
it has been collected. The public would never know it
because the speeches are not broadcast, although we
were promised that this would be done inthe present
Government's Manifesto. It is not broadcast, nor is
it going to come out in the Press tomorrow.
4.05 p.m.

The Press is either muzzled or it is prepared not
to publish one word from hon. members of this Hon-
ourable Chamber. If it is not muzzled, it is dishonest.
Now, Sir, imagine that there is one and the only
daily newspaper in this country, and the people
of this country do not know what is happening in
this Honourable Chamber! Why did those people
put themselves, completely out of the way or de-
prived themselves out of their time to vote for
their members to put them in here, when they
cannot, in truth and in fact, hear if they are alive
or dead as far as the publication is concerned,
whether it is by air or the Press?I feel that it is
unfair to this country. What is the good of pro-
viding Reporters with desks, tables and chairs? We
could just as well burn them up or give them away,
and forbid the Reporters from coming in here. If
they are coming in here and making reports for
themselves only and not for the people of this
country, why do they lose their time to come
in here and take up seats that other people would
want? It is unfair to us. Where are we heading?
This is Parliament, and the people should be able
to read the reports of this Honourable Chamber, or
the Government should see fit to carry out their








1946


promises now, because they promised us that they
would have the speeches broadcast. We cannot make
the "Advocate" publish anything; we cannot do
that. It is a private concernandwe cannot make them
do what they do not want to do. It may be that a
burnt child is in dread of the fire, but who burnt
them? They burnt themselves.

I believe that they should have legal advise to
say when, how and where; but if they take it upon
themselves to publish something and somebody
can make them pay for it, we, in here, cannot
be responsible for that. However, they should pay
this Honourable Chamber as well as the people
of this country some respect. Sir, the people of
this country look up to the Press very nearly as
much as they look up to their representatives.
The Press can play a very great part in politics or
in Government, and when you write an Editorial
which is worthwhile the people look up to it. For
any person who is accustomed to reading a news-
paper, the first thing that he will look for is the
Editorial and then the other reports. We had another
newspaper in this country. Someone is responsible
for its going out of operation, and I believe that
it is money which has caused that, because I
understand that the present "Advocate" bought it
out in order that they could do as they like. No soon-
er than they bought out the "Daily News", what
did they do? They refused to report anything from
this House,, and they just used their money to flout
the wishes of the people. Just as Government will
use their numbers at times to flout the wishes of
the people, or the opposition, the "Advocate" has
done just the same thing. When we had another
newspaper, the "Advocate", regardless as to wheth-
er they would be fined or penalised LI million,
they would still write no matter how small they
were, reports of this Honourable Chamber, and at
that the reports would be whatever a Minister of
Government says. Now they are doing nothing at all,
so that we are only flogging a dead horse when we
try to let the people of this country know that we
are doing or trying to do the job which we have
been sent here to do, because they will never know
it. This may suit the present Government, but it
will not suit the people. As I said just now, we can-
not compel the 'Advocate" to publish anything, but
I think we can move a Resolution here to keep
them out, Because we can do anythinginhere. The
Government should now be made to understand that
this is the time when they should carry out the
promises which were made to the people of this
country somewhere in 1961. Sir, in order to catch
the eyes of the people and also their votes, this is
what was written in their Manifesto:-

"The D. L. P. believes that democracy canfunc-
tion properly only when there is the widest possible
dissemination of political information and machinery
for expression and publication of different viewpoints.

To this end the Party proposes to set up a
Wireless Broadcasting Station which the Govern-
ment will either own outright or become a major
shareholder.


Broadcasting of debates of the House of Assembly
will therefore not have to be secondary to adver-
tising revenue considerations.

The Party will ensure the prompt publication
of the printed debates and the circulation at a cheap
price throughout the islands."

Sir, those are the promises which were made
to this country in 1961, and at that time we had two
daily newspapers in the Island and we could read
something from this Honourable House. At that
time they still thought it fit that the two news-
papers were not doing sufficient, and they put this
in their Manifesto. To do what? To fool me and
him.
4.15 p.m.

Now, Sir, is if fair? You must remember that
they have carried out a part of the promise, be-
cause at that time there was not a Wireless Broad-
casting Station, but there is one now. What is to
prevent the present Government from implemen-
ting their promises? We do not have anything;
nobody knows what goes on in here. I may as well
remain at home, as far as publication is concern-
ed. I am wasting my time; nobody knows if I am
muzzled or dead, politically, as far as members
of this House are concerned.

This is the people's business- we have been
sent here to do. Imagine sending out your servant
to do something and you cannot hear if your ser-
vant is dead or alive. Well, Sir, you would make
-it your business to get on to the servant and to
find out what the servant is doing. You will say:
"You are not working and I am not going to pay
you."Well, the people of this country should call
on members in this Chamber to give an account
of our stewardship.


Sir, this is the meaning of giving one man too
much power; it corrupts too much power corrupts.
Why should this Government refuse to carry out
a part of their Manifesto? The people are still
looking forward to it. If they are not goingto have
the speeches broadcast, they have still promised
here that they would sell the people something
cheap to read. Well, even that they have refused
to dol The Manifesto states:

"The party will ensure the prompt publication
of the printed Debates......"

Now, Sir, for about three sessions or four
sessions in 1961, when we were elected, every
Tuesday after the last Tuesday we would find
Debates on the Table in front of us so that we could
read and refresh our memories. That has been
abolished now; that is too much for the Government
to do, and they would not do it. I am going to put
the Government on the spot, because I am going
to bring a Resolution here next Tuesday asking
the Government to carry out: this same thing: "The








1947


party will ensure the prompt publication of printed
Debates and the circulation at a cheap price
throughout the Island." They would not even
circulate them in here far less throughout the
Island. This Government have to get up and get.'
They should not make promises they they do not
intend to honour. It is a very serious thing, Sir,
to make a promise and fail to honour it, especially
when it comes to the female sex. Sir, you are asking
for all the troubles in the world, if it is made to
the male sex, far less the female sex. Are you
going to tell me that this Government have gone
to sleep on their promises?


Sir, the people of this country cannot know,
or it appears will never know, what is being
carried on in here Tuesday after Tuesday. We
could just as well close the doors and do not
worry to come here any more. Do not look forward
to a private concern to do your work. Do not look
forward to the Advocate or anybody else to print
anything. It: is the Government's duty to do it.
The Advocate used.to print the Debates and do the
work for this Chamber. What did the Government see
fit to do? They put up their own Printery and took
away the work from the Advocate. Even that may
have been one of the reasons why the Advocate do
not care what they do. You want them to work for
nothing, and you took away what they were getting,
and today we are not getting anything.

We have a Printery up there; we have to vote
money here for it; we have to levy taxes on people
to support the Printery; therefore make the Prin-
tery do its job, and carry out the wishes of the people
and this Government. It is the wish of this Govern-
ment that Debates should be publicised and sold
at a cheap price throughout the Island. I did not
promise them that. That is the wish of this Govern-
ment; I did not promise the people to do that. I do not
knowhowthe Government feel about it., I do not mind
the 'Advocate, because they have money. That is the
power in the hands of the Advocate and they can
use it. The Government also have power, and they
are using it, too. Take.up the Advocate any day and
see what you can find in it nothing at all. The
Advocate does not care because they have money
and do not have any competition. Let a Newspaper
Company just make a threat without even putting
it into operation, and you will see the Advocate do-
ing work. You will see the Debates published and
everything else done in order to keep out the other
newspaper.

I think some of the owners, speaking subject
to correction,must be part owners in C. B. C., or
they have a big hand in it. I am not so sure, but I
have been hearing about one Thompson Group. I
do not know who is this group, but I hear that
Thonpson has some part in C. B. C., and some part
in the Advocate and so on. Well, you are going from
Satan to the devil, and that is what we are up
against.


I hope that the Government will reply to me re-
garding this part only: "The party will ensure the
prompt publication of the printed Debates and the
circulation at a cheap price throughout the Island."
They have not done it yet. Five, six, seven, eight
years must have gone by, and only the people who'
can find time to come in here can hear what is
going on, but the thousands of people all over the
country cannot hear one word. It is the Govern-
ment's fault, and they should never be forgiven
for it until they correct I would not call it a
mistake, but it is a mistake; it was not their in-
tention to do so, so it is a mistake the mistake.

Sir, I was making a point and drawing to the
Government's attention that, through wrong class-
ification, they were selling our local stuff at a
higher price than the imported stuff.
4.25.p.m.

On the last occasion, I had to be very quick
because my time was limited and I wanted to get
over as much as possible. I could not get over all,
but I have all the time now until4.30 p.m., and I
also have from now until the next Budget Speech,
and when that comes, I will have three Budgets to
discuss, because when the next Budget comes I will
still be working on the other two, and I am not
going to rest until I have six. If the Government
had carried out their promises and had done what
they had begun to do in 1961 by publishing these
debates and circulating them all round the country
and allowing people to buy them cheaply, I would
stop; but it would be a privilege after I die and go
to Heaven to have it recorded that the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph took six years to debate
six Budgetary Proposals. That would be some-
thing worthwhile. The big shots cannot do it; the ed-
ucationalists, the lawyers and the doctors cannot
do it, and I am going to show that it is done this
time unless the Government carry out its promise
and let the people of this country know something
by reading what is being done in this Chamber. I
am going to do it because if one does not mean to
honour a promise, he should not make it.

Sir, I see His Honour the Speaker is about to
take the Chair and I have to close at this stage.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER left the Chair and Mr.
SPEAKER took the Chair.

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Mr. SPEAKER: Government Business will now
be resumed. Whilst it was being considered earlier
this afternoon, the House was in Committee of
Supply which now it will resume.

Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the House resumed
Committee of Supply, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: When this Sitting was suspen-
ded, the hon. junior member for St. Peter was
speaking.









1948


Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, the Community
College, we believe, will be offering two year
courses, but if that is not strictly correct, I would
appreciate the hon.Minister informing us as to the
length of the course. What we might look at at this
stage is that on the passing of the Barbados Com-
munity College Bill, a Statutory Board was created
and as such the Board had certain powers, and I
believe this is one of the reasons why we saw ad-
vertisements in the Daily Press of these posts
which we are not considering before this Resolution
was brought before the House. Now the Board has
certain powers and functions, but there is no es-
caping the fact that it must be felt at some stage that
it owes a duty to this House. Here is a case where
these posts have been advertised and applications
called for. We believe some have been received,
but suppose the members of the Opposition during
the course of their speeches found it necessary to
call for a reduction in the number of Tutors or
in any of these posts here, in what position would
the Board find itself? In other words, we are say
ing that if the Board intends spending $370,000 or
in this case $204,116 employing staff, the Board
ought to make doubly sure and not merely depend
on the strength of numbers on that side to push
it through this House. The Board should see to it
that the money is voted first before they make
provision to spend it; so we feel that this House
has been slighted in some respects when the Board
decided to set about advertising these posts.

We will admit, Mr. Chairman, that running
advertisements, calling applicants, processing ap-
plications and carrying out your interviews and the
like must take time, so that you cannot be expected
to advertise today for some person to fill a post
tomorrow. All these things the Government was in a
position to consider before the Community College
Bill was passed. As I said earlier, the Government
could have been better advised by the Constituent
Committee on Education and Finance to remove the
difficult situations with which the Board now finds
itself confronted. Reference to the Reports from the
Ministry of Education will show that the custom has
been for the Chief Technical Education Officer, the
Director of Education or whatever you call him to
be co-opted or made a member of the Governing
Bodies. I think he is Chairman of the Governing
Bodies of the various Secondary Schools or he
occupies some prominent position on the Board.
4.35 p.m.

In the case of the Community College we have
absolutely nothing against the Officer' of the Ministry
who has been appointed a member of the Community
College Board. We would not attempt to say that
we have anything against him, but it looks patent-
ly strange to us that the Chief Education Officer
has been overlooked and his junior has been placed
on this Board, the Board of the Community Col-
lege. It just does not look right to us. This is what
must be said at this stage. You will find that the
success of this College depends in every respect
on the amount of co-operation that the Minister
can expect to receive and is going to receive


from all his subordinates. We find here that in
appointing this Board, the Minister made a depart-
ure from what is customary, and appointed, not the
:Senior Technical Officer:: in his Ministry, but he
goes elsewhere to appoint a junior. Our view is
that this Minister has found that he cannot twist
and turn the Chief Education Officer around his
fingers as he would like to do; so you will find
that in certain matters this Officer is being avoided.
When these things are done, we should do some
little bit of research, and we have got to ask the
mover of this Resolution to give us something by
way of an explanation. For what reason has the
Minister, in making appointments to his Board,
what are his justifications in departing from the
custom by leaving his Chief Education Officer in his
office and placing his junior to occupy a seat on
the Board. I have said already, and I want to repeat
this little point. "We have absolutely nothing against
this Officer who has been appointed to the Board
but it is very, very strange to us that the Senior
Officer has not been appointed there. If we were
to turn for a single moment to the Report of the
Ministry of Education for the period ending on the
31st August, 1960, we have here information which
could helps ina very great measure in deciding
this Resolution here today. It tells us about the
Barbados Evening Institute; it tells us that this
Institute conducted; amongst others, Commercial
studies. In these studies, classes were carried on
at St. Leonard's Girls' School, the Girls' Indus-
trial Union, to which I referred earlier today, and,
the Report says, at 13 other centres throughput
the country. Now, Sir, all we are asking is this.
'was it necessary, in the face of all these facil-
ities and of all the provision which is being made
even considering merely what theBarbados Eve-
ning Institute had been doing, what it had been es-
tablished to do, so to speak -was it really necessary
to commit the taxpayers of this Island to the tune
of $370,000 today? We heard the Minister of Social
Services say here today that there is no money
for providing houses and certain social amenities
for people who, the Minister really knows deep
down in his heart, have need of these facilities.
The Minister has told us that, but this is not a
supplementary Resolution for $370,000 to put con-
veniences on the road, let us say, near to Redland
Plantation in St. George where you will see boys
and girls bathing under the standpipes by day;
this is not a Resolution for $370,000 to establish
some Centre or to provide public conveniences,to
provide water for that matter, at Lonesome Hill,
in the parish of St. Peter. You will find that in that
district, people have got towalk forconsiderable
distance carrying buckets of water on their heads.
This is not a Resolution for that; this Is a Res-
olution for spending $370,000 in order to satisfy
one man who has absolutely no regard for whether
the people whom he claims he will be educating,
benefit from it or else.

That is what is annoying us on this side of
the House. We venture to assure the hon. mover
of this Resolution that, had this been a Resolution
for a sum of money to do any of the things which we












"know to be necessary, any of those pressing needs.,
to relieve the congestion and, what is more, it
is the same Minister of Education who, with his
shirt tail outside, went from school to school
about this Island and tried to expose his predeces-
sor in Office, the Hon. Minister who has moved this
Resolution. In trying to expose him, he tells us
that he finds that the schools are overcrowded.
4.45 p.m.
We are spending today $370,000, and this money
will not ease the congestion in one of the schools that
the Minister of Education is supposed to have visited
and found the children being housed under such over-
crowded conditions. The hon. Mover of this Resolu-
tion, in answer to questions by me, said that at one
school 300 children were being taught under a tree.
Since I have asked the questions, they have moved
them from under the tree and accommodated them at
a house called "Eyrie," whichwas formerlythe pro-
posed site for the Community College.

You will see, Mr. Chairman, if we are to spend
$370,000 initially on this Community College, we
would be glad if we were spending this $370,000 to
relieve the congestion that the Minister of Education
has complained about. When you examine this Min-
ister you will find that he has only been trying to
catch newspaper headlines. Every time you turn on
your television you can see him in his shirt tail jump-
ing about in front of you at night.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would like to draw the atten-
tion of the hon. memberto StandingOrder26(9) which
states:

"The conduct of Her Majesty, Members of
the Royal Family, the Governor-General of the
West Indies, the Governor, Members of either
House of the Legislature..."
and I need not go further -
"shall not be referredtoexceptupona substan-
tive motion."

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, if you stop there, it
is for me to continue. The operative word in what you
have just tried to read and I lay emphasis on "tried
to read" is "conduct."

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Conduct. That is what I am re-
fering to.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, you are in the Chair
and I have to respect your Ruling, but it does not
mean that I will understand that your interpretation
of the word "conduct" will be mine. Anyway, I will
have to respect your Ruling. It is the word "conduct!'


Mr. CHAIRMAN: That is what I am referring to,
and that is what the hon. member is referring to. It
is the conduct of the Minister when he talks about
his jumping about in his shirt tail.
(Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: That is conduct outside
the Senate, and he has a perfect right to talk about it.
That is going too far.)


1949


Mr. CHAIRMAN: This talking while sitting in
your seat and not addressing the Chair must also
stop.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I am not sitting and
addressing the Chair; I am standing.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am referring to the hon. ju-
nior member for St. Joseph who is sitting and not
addressing the Chair.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I promise you that,
throughout my address on this matter, Iwill not re-
fer to the conduct of the Senator in the Other Place;
I will not refer to the conduct of the Minister in the
Senate. I am telling you now, Sir, that that is my in-
terpretation and the interpretation of all sensible
members in this honourable House as to what this
Rule means. It means that you must not refer to the
conduct of a member of the Other Place. It does not
refer to the conduct of a member of the Other Place.
It does not refer to the conduct of a member of the
Other Place who goes into the street and shoots some-
body with a gun. Cannot we refer to that? You cannot
refer to his conduct in the Senate as such, but if he
walks about in his shirt tail, or half-naked, outside,
any hon. member can stand onthe floorof this House
and refer to it. Of course, we have to accept your
Ruling. We have to respect your Ruling, and I am
going to respect it because convention requires that
we should respect it. I will now proceed with my
address.

Mr. Chairman, I have made reference to the Re-
port of the Ministry of Education ending the 31st
August, 1960. Mr. Chairman, when it comes home
so forcibly to me that there are so many of us who
can read and cannot understand what we read, you
must imagine how I must feel. I told you here what
the Barbados Evening Institute, according to this Re-
port, has been doing. Several children have taken
the commercial subjects: Shorthand, Typewriting,
English and Bookkeeping. Remember, Sir, the class-
es that were held at St. Leonard's Girls' School took
instructions in Shorthand and Typewriting at three
levels, and in English and Bookkeeping in two grades.
They tell you that students who took examinations
during this period acquired Typewriting and Short-
hand speed ranging from 70 to 110 words per
minute at the Evening Institute.

Now, the Commercial classes that they are going
to keep at the Community College will turn out stu-
dents writing at what speeds? All we are having in
this lot of Community College talk is nothing else but
duplication of the services that have already been pro-
vided in this Island. The taxpayers have to foot the
bill. If our Chairman wanted to take advantage of the
facilities offered there, he could not go there because
he must have 4 "0" Levels. That is the equivalent
to what the University College of the West Indies is
asking for. That is what it amounts to.

You will find that students took the Royal Society
of Arts Intermediate Steno-typist Examination. They








1950


_have had all of the commercial training, and even the
Barbados Government have been running a Shorthand-
Typewriting Proficiency and Promotion Examination.
If all of this, Mr. Chairman, is what is being pro-
vided, is it not then that our needs ought to be seen
in this light? Should we not examine where we are
short of Teachers, Tutors andInstructors? We should
see to it if a particular Centre has not been served;
if it does not have on its roll the numbers that we
have been hoping for; if it would be better to find a
more central site for the Centre and so on.
4.55 p.m.
We would see that it would be better to shift the
Centre to find a more central site for those persons
who want to take advantage of all these facilities be-
ing offered. Mark you, Sir, all these facilities were
provided by the former Government that was in po-
wer, and not by the present Government that took
over since 1961. The Barbados Labour Party as a
Government provided all these facilities here, and
all those stenotypists and others in the Government
Service who were able to pass the Government pro -
motion examinations from time to time are the peo-
ple who owe it to the Barbados Labour Party as a
Government to have made provision for them to be
able to acquire such skill s and knowledge. The method
that is being employed is that if a man takes up a
new office, he is not worthy of his salt if he doesn't
throw off the top from his desk and order a new desk.
If he does not get rid of the wastepaper basket that
has been serving and can still serve for a number of
years, if he does not change the typewriterin the of-
fice, you will say that he has just taken over from
where the previous holder of the office left off. We do
not mind a Minister of Education going into office and
bringing about changes, but we are trying to protect
the taxpayers. Here we are attempting to duplicate
services that are already in existence at a cost of
$370,000, and I can tell you that the Housing Authority
cannot provide lavatory accommodation for people
throughout the country who have been begging for it
for years. We are spending $370,000 on a Community
College, and wherever you go about the districts peo-
ple are still using pit holes, breeding mosquitoes, flies
and germs of all sorts. Human excreta presents it-
self to you wherever you go in the districts. People
are still having this water barrel system, a five
gallon bucket system, dipping into it with a tin cup a
night, drinking from the same cup and putting it down.
Those are the conditions I am trying to draw to the
Minister's attention. $370,000 would go a long way
in relieving these conditions. That is what we are
concerned with, and we say so mainly because we are
satisfied that the present facilities for educating the
type of people that the Community College wants to
educate are already available, and somewhat in
abundance in some respects.

Right now, Mr. Chairman, there are lots of boys
and girls whose parents are strangling and denying
themselves. There are some fathers who are walk-
ing about not properly clad; the pair of trousers that
must catch the eye is all holes; but if some were to
be asked to go deeper, we would find that all is not
well there, but these people are not giving themselves
a pretty shirt or a pretty pair of underwear and


neglecting their children. Because the Government
cannot, will not and has not been able or has not tried
to provide enough places in schools, these people
are the ones who are paying $30, $35, $40, $45, $70
and $75 per term for their children, and some of the
schools, I understand, will be increasingtheirschool
fees. When these children have taken their G. C. E. -
and some took it during the months of June and July
just gone if from the results they get two G. C. E.
Certificates from the Oxford and Cambridge orfrom
London University, do you understand that the Com-
munity College makes absolutely no provision for
these pupils to continue their studies?

There are pupils, Mr. Chairman, who have had
to leave St. Leonard's School and some of these Senior
Department schools at the ages of twelve and four-
teen. Do you understand, Mr. Chairman, that afterwe
have spent this $370,000, not one of these poor chil-
dren can step on the threshold of the Community Col-
lege to further their little education?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order, Mr.
Chairman, I draw Your Honour's attention to Rule
No. 29(5) which says that members shall not read
newspapers, books etc, and the Deputy Speaker, of
all people, is breaking that Standing Order.

Mr. SARGEANT: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, what I am saying is
that the Leader of this House who introduced this Re-
solution must know that when children leave school
at the age of twelve or fourteen, there is no employ-
ment for them anywhere. Their parents cannot afford
to give them private tuition, the Government does not
open its doors for them, but you are spending
$370,000 and all these children go on the streets. What
kind of Minister is he whether in shirt tail, dress
tail or else? How can he feel comfortable lying in
bed at night when some of these poor children have
to be under the tamarind trees? This is a much more
serious matter than some hon. members on that side
seem to think. We appreciate the fact that these chil-
dren to whom I refer must look to us on this side to
see what can be done to relieve them of their plight.
It is no easy mater. If the Community College, as I
said before, was a College to open its doors to take
in these twelve and fourteenyearolds to help them to
acquire qualifications to get into the University of the
West Indies at a later date, we would vote more money
than you are asking for today; but'when we spend
$370,000, we are leaving 37,000 children to roam the
streets who would be glad to find somewhere to re-
ceive two or three hours' instruction.


What is worse, Mr. Chairman, is that since this
Government came into power,where at St. Leonard's
School children have been receiving full day's instruc-
tion, this Government has decided thattheywere get-
ting too much education and is giving them half a
day. I challenge the Hon. Mover of this Resolution to
deny that. The Hon. Leader of the House was Min-
ister of Education, and it was under his regime that
they introduced a measure whereby the children at
St. Leonard's School instead of receiving a full day's








1951


.instruction, they get half a day; buthe does not for a
single moment say that they have only got half a day's
instruction for four, five or six days and the Govern-
ment feels that it owes it to them to give them in some
otherway by setting up a Community College or sixth
Form College to try to compensate them for what they
lost. The Government is not concerned with this at all.
5.05 p.m.,

For that matter, this Community College affair
is not even, in truth and in fact, the affair of the ma-
jority of the Cabinet. I repeat that it is not the affair
of the majority of the Cabinet. I can pause to allow
any Hon. Minister on that side to deny that. (Mr.
CORBIN: That is a lot of latitude.) Mr. Chairman,
I know that you know that the question of longitude
from here to the "Old City" would not arise. The
Government owes it to the people of this country to
provide them with an education at Primary level,
Grammar School level, Secondary-Modern level, Se-
nior Department level, Technical Education level in
whatever stream; they owe it at further level and at
University level. Yes, we accept that as the proper
function of any Government. We would expect any
Government in providing education at these levels to
do-what? To budget, to make provision for spending
your money in those avenues and at those levels where
the majority stand to get the best advantage from what
is being offered. However, with the conditions, as I
have explained earlier, existing at all levels,the suf-
fering of our people, the numbers, the thousands, and
bear in mind......

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I wonder if hon. members will
observe Standing Order 29(5).

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Iwish Your Honourwill
look and see whether it is a newspaper.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Standing Order 29(5) reads as
follows:-

"Members shall not read newspapers, books
letters or other documents, except such matter
therein as may be directly concerned with the
business under debate."

Am I reminded that the document which the hon.
senior member for St. Thomas and the hon. junior
member for St. Joseph are now reading, is connected
with the debate under discussion?

Mr. J. M. G.M. ADAMS: Yes, Sir, it is. It is the
Official Gazette; it is a debate of this Honourable
House to which I may not refer, if Your Honour re-
members the Rules, because you cannot refer to de-
bates which have taken place in this same session.
Therefore, I will just tell you that I am reading the
debates of this Honourable House, and they are re-
lative to the matter under consideration. I am sorry
that I cannot read them out to you, Sir, In any case it
would be only a waste of time.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order. I
object-strongly. Is Your Honour calling to my atten-


tion a breach of an Order when you do not know that
there is a breach? You do not knowwhat we are read-
ing from. After all, it is notenough just to be able to
read. Any Second Form boy can read, or should be
able to read, and you should understandwhatyou are
reading. It does not help the dignity of the House or
the Chair to be making such glaring, absolute, obvious
mistakes.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, the Hon. Leader of
the House, perhaps, does not know that we have mind-
readers in this Place.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, on a
point of order. I have before me May's Parliamentary
practice, which is a book. Am I in order to read it?

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I take that as no point of order.
Let the hon. junior member for St. Peter proceed.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: You have drawn atten-
tion to disorder and this is a book. I am asking you
if I am in order.

Mr. HINDS: Now, Sir, in examining the present
facilities for education in this Island, we cannotfor-
get the Extra-Mural Department of the University of
the West Indies. The Extra-Mural Department to my
mind has tried, or has been trying in some measure,
to fill a breach, so to speak, in that people without
"O" Level certificates could enroll on some of the
Extra-Mural Classes, and benefit from the lectures
and instruction given generally. Whenwe look atwhat
the Extra-Mural Department has been doing, we must
say that the Community College is not really and truly
an Institution which is most needed at this present
moment in the educational life of our people. It is not
at its starting-off point, because if you have got to
possess four "O" Levels gained atone sittingor five
gained at more than one sitting, you have not fallen
far The starting-off point for this College does not
fall, if it does fall, far below the requirements of the
U. W. I. I have made the point here. You start with
such qualifications at the Community College to end
up with having acquired one or two "A" Levels after
two years or whatever the time might be, but you will
spend four years with the same qualifications at the
U. W. I. and come out with a Degree.
5.15 p.m.

If that is the case, if it is as I have stated, and
there is nothing I have heard to the contrary, what is
the point in spending $370,000 to get from it less than
you can getfrom it if youhadgiven the same $370,000
to the University of the West Indies, wouldit not pay
a student better to spend four years at the University
and get a Degree than to spend two years at the Com-
munity College and only end up with an "A" Level
Certificate?

I cannot understand it, andthatiswhyl must pay
some tribute to those members of the Cabinet who
could not see it possible, or could not find it conve-
nient, to lend their support to this. We do not expect
them to get up on their feet now and give us their sup-








1952


port, or to confirm what I am saying. It might be very
convenient forthem to get up and deny it. What we are
saying is this. Are we spending this $370,000 where
we are going to get the best results? Is anybody con-
cerned with that aspect of things? Is it merely a case
where the taxpayers are an unsuspecting people, and
we can do anything with them so long as the Govern-
ment come here for money or something of the sort?

We are satisfied that when we have established
this Community College it is going to create further
disgust and distrust; it is going to bring about great
frustration in the minds of our young people, and I
am warning you that the people will one day rise up
and say that they have had enough of this. We are
entreating, the Government at this stage to do some-
thing to fulfil the aspirations and hopes of the young
people of this country the people who are yearning
for education and to meet them half-way. If you are
spending $370,000, you must spend it to relieve the
congestion that the Minister of Education has com-
plained of finding in the various schools that he has
visited. Let us see that something is being done.

Mr. Chairman, at Boscobelle Boys' School in St.
Peter, there is a situation where only a part of the
ground floor of the building is being used. The entire
top floor of the building is kept closed. It is no use
to anybody, and nobody occupies it. For the whole
day, every school day, it is closed andnobody is oc-
cupying it; yet you will find that in the other build-
ings which are being occupied there is congestion
or overcrowding.

You will also find at the same Boscobelle Boy's
School that one of the buildings which is now being
occupied by children during the day has large holes
in the floor. The ventilation of one of those buildings
needs further examination. But what do we find? We
are spending $370,000, and it will not relieve con-
gestion in any of the schools in this Island where the
Minister has found this congestion and overcrowding.

We are asking, Mr. Chairman, that these matters
be examined andwhen the decision is reached, one way
or another, whether to spendthis sum or otherwise,
that we will learn that we have not spent this money
because it was the Government's determination to
do so, but that we have spent it to the advantage of
the majority of people who are looking forward to
it.

Mr. Chairman, a very serious situation must
arise when we establish this Community College.
Since 1958 there have been two Science Laboratories
at the Foundation School and at the Alleyne School also
since 1959, as well as at the Alexandra School. Addi-
tional Laboratories were erected at Harrison College
and the Lodge Schools. Now, if those Schools,which
I have just mentioned have Laboratories I am asking
the Minister to tell me these things exactly what is
going to become of those Laboratorieswhentheywill
no longer be used to the extent to which they have
been used in the past? With the establishment of the
Community College, while we have been told that
Sixth Forms will remain at those schools which have


them one Minister says that they will remain, and
another Minister says that they will whither way.
Between these two extremes, we are to enquire what
is to become of these Laboratories which have been
established at Harrison College, Lodge School, Foun-
dation School, Alexandra School and the Alleyne
School and those other places that might have had them.
That is what we are very much concerned with.
Mr. Chairman, it is not good enough merely to
say that we are setting up aCommunity College at an
initial cost of $370,000 and end off there. I feel that
I have said enough on this matter to await the replies
of the Minister, and to see what additional informa-
tion he can give to allay any of our fears. Even the
Association of Assistant Teachers had fears to be
allayed.
5.25 p.m.

I mentioned earlier in my address, Sir, that one
of my fears was, when mention was made of a
Laboratory Technician whether a Resolution would
be coming before the House at a later date asking
us to make provision for more senior staff; but it
has since occurred to me, Sir, that amongst the Senior
Tutors and other senior staff there might be pro-
vision for a Science Teacher, and if that is the
case, I am asking the Minister to give us whatever
information he has at his disposal on this. I am
asking the Minister to give us a breakdown of this
$165,884, how much he intends to spend on main-
tenance of building and the maintenance and con-
trol of the grounds. I enquired earlier from him
as to the furniture and how the money was going
to be spent, what type of furniture he is using,
and I certainly would like to hearwhat the Minister
has to say.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, we
had the Bill to which this item relates, and now we
have this item itself which is $370,000 for a grant
to the Community College, provision of staff,
equipment and services. Now, Mr. Chairman, so
much has been said both in the debate on the ori-
ginal Bill by the hon. junior member for St. Peter
as well as the Minister who introduced this Bill that
I do not propose to canvass or discuss the principle
of the Community College or indeed the details
of expenditure which were suppliedby the Minister
when he introduced the Resolution earlier today;
but there are certain side issues to which I would
advert and ask if the Minister's attention has been
drawn thereto. Maybe I have not been sufficiently
aware of what was going on, Mr. Chairman. Cer-
tainly I have got a fairly imperfect grasp at the
moment of the extent to which scientific subjects
will be taught and what type of graduate will be
turned out by the Community College.

There are operating in Barbados a number
of scientific institutions which require and are
giving employment to Barbadians without Degrees
in Science. but with some knowledge 'of scientific
subjects, and there are of course many industrial
service establishments which employ a large
number of technical staff. We only have to think of








1953


the central offices of Cable -and Wireless, the
Telephone Company, the Electric Company, and
so on, all of which at present I believe, make use
of the Technical Institute for some of their staff,
and, I believe, would welcome the opportunity of
more classes at which staff might be trained for
working in the companies concerned. It is a mis-
take, I think, Mr. Chairman, to think that because
a boy has a Secondary education and has reached
Sixth Form level that he should not go and dirty
his hands with spanners at the Electric Company
or pick up a screwdriver at the Telephone Company.
They are precisely the people whom we see turn-
ing up down here to train us in Barbados. They
start as Secondary School boys in the United King-
dom or corresponding institutions in the United
States or Canada, and they rise in technical achieve-
ment in the business, and they end up down here as
trainers. I very much hope that we shall not see any
scorn of such work on the part of persons who have
been to the Community College just because the
Community College is described as or is the
successor to the Sixth Form College, and just
because it is thought of as being a stepping stone
to a higher education. It is not only these com-
panies that carry on technicalworks of this sort to
which I am referring, because we are fortunate
in Barbados in having a number of institutions
of higher learning and research institutions of one
sort or another which also require technical staff
to work in them. There is the Bellairs Research
Institution, and there is the Metorological Research
Institution and various others.

There is also, for example, the HARP project.
I see that HARP is described as employing a
great number of Barbadians. It seems, despite
the cut off in its grant from McGill University,,
to have more money to spend thanever, since it
is currently enjoying the use of a very elaborate
powered boat of some sort. I do not know if you,
Mr. Chairman, have been admitted to the magic
circle of those who are entertained on it, but
nevertheless it is there and it is an example
that HARP presumably intends to play a big role an
increasing role in Barbados. By way of aside, I
would just mention this: if we are talking about
training technicians who would go and work at
HARP, there is just something we should ask our-
selves. On Sunday, July 27, I am reliably informed
that a HARP vehicle landed in Spencers Cane ground
and burnt 40 acres of cane, and on Friday, August
2, between 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock another HARP
vehicle landed near Oldbury Woods, St. Philip,
near the property of one Reynold Weekes, and
did damage there. I hope that the technicians who
eventually go to work with HARP will be in a posi-
tion to prevent this sort of accident from happening.
This is clearly not the type of debate in which
we can call for a proper investigation, but clearly
it is wrong and dangerous for Barbadian school
children and everybody for the HARP vehicle to be
misfiring and landing shells or martlets or what -
ever they are called in Barbados. It is clearly
dangerous and it is something we have to consider


at all levels. This is a research institution and at
some stage may want Barbadians to go and work
there. Let us hope it will still be operating when
the Community College is turning out graduates, and
whatever damage it has done to Barbados will not
have sunk it in law suits to the extent that it will
no longer be able to give employment to some of
the technicians.

On the main theme, Mr. Chairman, I very much
hope the Minister can give us some assurance that
the steady expansion of technical education will be
given a fillip here by the Community College. As
far as I am concerned, if there can be a justifica-
tion for the Community College, that could be one of
the justifications, and we know that all has not been
well at the Technical Institute. We know that
persons have come here from abroad, especially
Canadian exchange teachers, and have been extreme-
ly dissatisfied with the conditions prevailing. They
have been willing to offer their services to the
Community College, but they get no replies to their
letters from the Department of Education when they
say they would be willing to stay and work in Bar-
bados for another year. I am speaking from know-
ledge, Mr. Chairman, I very much hope that Science
and Technology, the subjects in which presents
Sixth Form teaching is most deficient and Agri-
culture no doubt is just as deficient will be given
attention by the Ministry when it is staffing the
Community College.
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I think I had
better deal with the points which were made by the
last speaker. They are very well taken and are of
exceptional importance. I cannot of course in any
detail explain to the House what the syllabus of the
Community College is going to be like, but I can
give a good general idea of what the Ministry has
in mind in respect of its teaching of Science and
technical subjects.
5.35 p.m.

It is proposed so far as Pure and Applied
Science are concerned, to do the same full range of
teaching as will be done or expected to be done in
any full Sixth Form course. Physics, Chemistry,
Botany, Zoology, Pure and Applied Mathematics
will be done in both G. C. E. syllabuses leading
to competence to take the external examinations
which are customarily taken. With respect now to
technical subjects, this is what, I believe, the Min-
istry has in mind, although all of it for reasons
which well be obvious, cannot be implementated at
the same time. In the first place, it is hoped that
the Community College will offer upgraded technical
courses, courses which I believe, will fit pupils
for writing what is known as the Ordinary National
Certificate Examination. This is what it is hoped
that at that level the Community College will do
in Technology. This, of course, will mean that the
courses now offered at the Technical Institute,
the London City of Guilds Examinations Courses,
which are qualified Courses for certain types of
technical employment, will be upgraded for Com-
munity College purposes, because if you could,








1954
"- i ii,,


for argument sake, regard the City of Guilds Courses
as Fifth Form Courses, then the Ordinary National
Certificate would be an upgrading of those courses,
and would be the equivalent to Sixth Form technical
courses. I can therefore give the assurance that the
Ministry has it well in mind to extend to the pupils
who attend the Community College, a full range of
teaching both in Science and in technical subjects,
although, quite obviously, the curriculum in these
courses will not spring up fully complemented
from the beginning, but this is what is aimed at
and which will exist in the shortest possible time.

Now, as to some of the points raised by the
hon. junior member for St. Peter in the course of
his speech. Mr. Chairman, quite frankly, I am at
a disadvantage for the reason, not because of
anything he has said, but because of something
else. The House of Assembly, some weeks ago.
passed it is true not without a division in the
Second Reading the Community College Bill in
which the principles of this Institution were fully
debated and examined. All the arguments which I
have heard from the hon. member today, except
two, were fully brought to the attention of the House
on that occasion in the debate on the Second Read-
ing, and they were answered in my introductory
remarks or in remarks made in the course of the
debate while the House was in Committee. This
side of the House, although we were under attack
in some respects, nevertheless accepted two, or
it may be three, very valuable amendments in
Committee which, as we understood, were an at-
tempt on the part of the other side, to make the
Bill a better Act when it was passed. It would not
appear to me, therefore, that having gone through
that exercise on that occasion, the House would
find itself again in the toils discussing the merits
or demerits of a Community College. When I said
that I was at a disadvantage, that is what I meant.
I cannot now rehash arguments which were pre-
sented to the House from that side as to why we
think there ought to be a Community College. What
I have to get over is to set the hon. members'
mind at rest on some of the points which he raised
and which arise out of the Resolution before us.

The first one that springs to my mind was with
respect to the temporary siting of the College at
"Sherbourne". The hon. member drew to our at-
tention the fact that some time, ago the House was
made aware of a proposal to lease "Sherbourne"
out to the British High Commission at a rental
of some $500 a month. This is, of course, true;
but this deal, if you may call it a deal, this propo-
sal has been rescinded and the British High Com-
mission is no longer interested in acquiring "Sher-
bourne" on lease, and that is how the proposal to
use "Sherbourne" as a temporary residence for the
Community College became possible. No question
therefore arises i of budgeting the cost of the rental
of "Sherbourne" into the Community College. It is
the property of the Government or the Governor-
in-Executive Committee or the Crown, or whatever
legal entity we choose to name it. It is the property


like any other Government school, of the Government
or the Crown, or whatever it is. We do not charge
the Governing Body any rent for Harrison College;
we do not charge the Governing Body any rent for
Lodge School or any of them. They are public pro-
perty and schools are carried on there. Therefore
the question of the Governing Body of the Community
College offering a rental for their occupation anduse
of "Sherbourne" or "Eyrie" or any of those places
just does not arise.

The second point and this is perhaps, in my
view, although I may be wrong, but the most valid
point was this, that I had committed, through an
oversight, to give a breakdown when I was intro-
ducing the Resolution, of the expenditure which it is
proposed to spend on the furniture and equipment
and so on. I must say that while I do not like crit-
icising members of the Public Service, I so share
the annoyance and indignation of all hon. members
on both sides of the House whenever criticism is
made of the way in which some Addenda to Resolu-
tions are drawn up. I had not myself seen this until
yesterday, and I remarked, when I looked at it for
the first time, that in the same way thay a brake-
down could be given of the salaries of the various
categories of Staff, in just that way, hon. members
might have had in the Addendum to the Resolution
a breakdown. If I had anything to do with it I do
not mean this as a criticism of anybody; I am only
saying what I really think about these things, but I
would have insisted that a similar breakdown should
have been put in for the furniture and equipment.
This sum of $165,884 is arrived at under three
categories Non-recurrent Expenditure, Recurrent
expenditures and Capital expenditure. The Non-
recurrent expenditure includes desks, chairs, book-
cases, tables, fans, clocks, filing cabinets, etc:
Laboratory equipment for Chemistry, Physics
and Biology and, of course, Library books. That is
how the Non-recurrent expendiutre has been made
up. The desks, chairs etc., $22,000, the Laboratory
equipment for Chemistry, Physics and Biology,
$94,500 and the Library books, $15,000.
5.45 p.m.

The Recurrent Expenditure includes -
Cleaning materials $1, 500
Electricity, Water and Gas to the
end of the financial year 1,000
all of this is
Stationary and Domestic Requisites 8,000
Miscellaneous 884
Now, for Capital Expenditure -
The preparation of building for Class
Rooms and Laboratories $20,000
Maintenance of grounds 2,000
Contingencies 1,000
So these three categories of Recurrent and Capital
make up the $165,884. In connection with this, the
hon. member raised a very important point because
it is something that we should not lose sight of. He
wanted an assurance as to whether the furniture
and equipment would be locally produced. I can
readily give that assurance, because for some








1955


time now a directive issued three or four years
ago has gone out from the Cabinet that office fur-
niture and equipment, wherever possible, must be
locally acquired, i.e., both as to materials and as to
production. It is only in cases where materials, or
equipment, cannot be had here, or cannot be made
here, that any latitude I borrow the term of the
hon. junior member for St. Andrew is given
for the importation of furniture and equipment.

If hon. members opposite know of anythingwhich
contradicts or contravenes this policy, we would be
very glad if and when it is brought to our attention,
because we are absolutely adamant on this point.
Obviously you ought not to need to put up any argu-
ment for the employment of local workmen, or the
use of local materials, in equipping public buildings.

The hon. member raised some other points
about what general facilities are offered and who
are to benefit from these facilities. I said all of
this three weeks ago but I would still like to re-
peat it now. The Community College is an Insti-
tution which will cater to pupils who have already
passed, at least, four subjects at Ordinary Level
of the G. C. E. or their equivalent. I say or their
equivalent because since the College is going to
give instructions in commercial subjects, obvious-
ly, you would not ordinarily find people wishing to
pursue Advanced commercial studies with G. C. E.
subjects, but they may have L. C. C. subjects which
are thought to be the equivalent to the required
amount of G. C. E. subjects. Whatever pupil pos-
sesses four subjects at Ordinary Level, or the
equivalent in his own particular line of study, would
be admitted for that particular Advanced Course
of his choice.

The hon. member also asked, and I suppose
arising out of this, what is going to happen to the
large numbers of pupils between, say, the ages of
twelve and whatever age it is at which the Com-
munity College will admit them. Of course, in the
course of his remarks, I was very astonished to
hear the hon. member discover that so much has
been done in the last regime. If his rendition of
that achievement is to be believed, not only have
we not added to what we have found, but we have
actually substracted from it. I dare say the hon.
member holds this view now and may not have
held it in 1962 and 1963. I certainly do not remem-
ber his holding that particular view, that most of
these things had been achieved in 1961.


I will answer him factually on the point of facili-
ties provided. Ever since 1965, when I was the Min-
ister of Education, the House of Assembly made extra
provision in the financial year 1965-66 of nearly
$100,000 for the extension of Evening Institute work
and for the creation of what I then called I do not
know what name is given to them now Continuation
Classes all over the Island to meet this same problem:
of the 12,13,14 year olds who wished to continue their
studies.


When I left the Ministry I am sure that some two
dozen extra additional Centres additional to the nor-
mal Evening Institute Centres in some twenty or
twenty-five additional Centres these Continuation
Classes were going on. I can only speak for the
figures I recall in 1966 and early 1967. Some 3,000
additional pupils to those attending ordinary Evening
Institute Classes were making use of these Contin-
uation Classes. These Classes were held in a wide
range of subjects: formally academic, commercial,
and in some cases technical, because wehadmade
arrangements for Evening Classes to be conducted in
all of the Technical Wings of the Secondary Boy's
Schools.

I would be very astonished to find out that, far
from notworkingto burst atthe seams, the hon. mem-
ber has discovered that in one school, at any rate,
far from working at full capacity not enough work is
being done. I do not wish in anyway to blow my own
trumpet, and I have no reasonto believe that the stan-
dards of expansion in the Ministry of Education have
deteriorated in any way, but I would like this to be
checked, because we did institute in 1965 a large num-
ber of Continuation Classes and, I think twenty or
twenty-four Centres offering several subjects not
only the usual academic subjects such as English,
History and that sort of thing, but Typewriting, Book-
keeping, Shorthand as well as what you would call
technical subjects: Wood-work, Metal-work, Domestic
Science in which the more promising girls were pre-
pared for the City of Guilds Examination in House-
craft. This is what we did then.

I will tell you even more. In order to meet the
demand which I felt that had existed in the Metropo-
litan area, perhaps, more than in any other place,
I instituted some classes in practical electricity,
and I believe up to the time I left the Ministry three
such classes were catering to 80 young men in each
class.
5.55 p.m.

All of this I am aware of as having been done; so
I cannot accept the hon. member's contention that by
establishing the Community College we are leaving
thousands to drift, because it was even before the
Community College was ever thought of thatthe Min-
istry of Education attempted to meet this growing de-
mand manifested by those young people who were
leaving school and who in our view were not quite
equipped to face life, because quite frankly they had
not learnt enough. What I am therefore hopingis that
the Evening Institute Organisation will now conceni-
trate more fully on what I call the continuation work
so that these people can have three or four years of
additional training after their formal training is over,
either by going into the Craft trainingwhen the Trades
Training Centre is set up, or by continuing in the
evening classes, but by whatever means that the
facilities will be there for them, and when they are
17 or 18 years, if by that time any of them show pro-
mise for more extended and expanded study, the Com-
munity College will be there to meet their needs and
to take them even further. This is what I am hoping,








1956


and this is what I believe the Ministry of Education
intends to do.
To sum up, Mr. Chairman, I think it is a good
thing that these misgivings should be utterednotonly
in this House but outside of it. After a while it is
true that in any discussion on education anybody can
say you should not do this, you should not do that, you
should do the other, the more mature outlook would be
to say that everything in education is a priority. I
dare say if the Government had not established the
Community College and had been doing just exactly
what the hon. member in this course of his speech
was enjoining upon us, to continue the work of finding
more school places, we would have been told that this
is all right, but why don't we do something for the
people who want Sixth Form training and cannot get it.
No Government therefore can hope to satisfy all public
opinion on all aspects of its educational policy.

What particularly disturbs me though in this
House, particularly in these two debates, is that I
quite frankly think that hon. members opposite have
been unfair to the Minister. In the first place if you
impute .....
Mr. HINDS: To which Minister of Education, be-
cause there are two.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I think hon. members have
been unfair to the Minister of Education. In the first
place whatever you may think of him personally, I
think you ought to give any man credit for knowing
something about his job. You cannot know all of it.
He is bound to make mistakes and he is bound to need
advice and guidance, but he cannot be the long-grain
idiot that hon. members opposite would have him to
be, and therefore you have to give him credit for
having sat down and thought long and seriously about
this project, and put the best available advice and
judgment of which he is capable before the commu-
nity as a whole. You are not required to agree with
him in any area or all the aspects of his policy, but
at any rate I thinkthatinfairness to him credit should
be given to him for some common-sense and some
judgment. ,
The second thing is this: I cannot anticipate the
Minister by saying how he proposes to work his own
policy out, but I would say for myselfthat my reason
for supporting the whole concept of a Community Col-
lege is first of all because I see the need for it, and
secondly because if the numbers of people whowould
normally be deprived of Sixth Form training in the
Schools which do not have these facilities canget this
extra additional training in an institution provided for
that purpose, that adds to the sum total of educational
opportunity in this Island. This is why I cannot share '
the hon. member's fears, because if you tell me
that you are creating another educational institution,
I cannot get into a panic and say that because you are
doing that, something else is going to go wrong. It
seems to me that every new educational institution
created increases the sum total of educational oppor-
tunity.

We did not promise people thatwe would promote
or provide free education at University level, but it is


certain that when we saw the opportunity of doing it
through the establishment of the College of Arts, we
said: "Why not?" The more educational institutions
we have and the more involvement people can have in
them, the better for the total community. So while
I can concede that it may take the Community College
some time before it is working as smoothly as all hon.
members would see it, I would not prevent its estab-
lishment on the ground that it may not work smoothly
in its first three or four years. Of course there will
be problems which will have to be ironed out. The Hon.
Minister had hoped to start in September, but he has
now put back the date until October. This is the kind
of thing that can happen, or when he starts he may
find an interest developing among the pupils of the
College which he had not thought about, but which,
nevertheless, may have to be catered for academically
otherwise. But this will happen because it is an insti-
tution which you expect to grow.

I hope, therefore, that hon. memberswillunder-
stand that while we will try our best to avoid the pit-
falls which they have been warning us about, we cannot
guarantee that we would not have difficulties, andthat
these difficulties, when they come, will have to be
met in the light of the circumstances then prevailing.
I want just to make this plea to hon. members. You
cannot and you ought not to expect to be able to take
out one aspect of education or one project and criti-
cise it on the grounds that another project might have
been more healthy. There are really no priorities in
education. Education itself is the community priority.
Emphasis may change because you cannot do every-
thing at the same time; but I have never held the view
that this or that aspect of educational development is
more important, and therefore should be pressed.
The present Minister holds the view, I believe, that
close attention must be paid to Primary education; but
although he holds that view, he is not by any means
neglecting the development of Secondary and further
education. This is how it has to be done.
6.05 p.m.

I believe he holds the view that he has to acce-
lerate the facilities, orwhateveryoulike to call them,
for Teacher Training. He has said this, and he has
announced some of his plans in this respect. At the
same time, he is just as keenly interested in getting
the Trades School off the ground, and that is how a
Minister of Education has to operate. There are
literally a dozen or twenty things which you wish to
do at the same time and either because of money or
for technical or other reasons, you cannot do all at the
same time. It may be that you do not have the person-
nel all at the same time to advise you on the setting
up of all your projects; but I think that people who
have to administer an educational system ought to
steer clear of any such contention when it is put to
them that something in education is more valuable
than something else. Once you admit this, you will
always be drifting from one project to another with-
out any coherence. I take the view that anything in
education is a priority, but the timing, finance and other
matters may prevent more than one or two projects
from coming to light at the same time. Therefore,
in summing up, I give hon. members the assurance








1957


that all the matters which they have raised with re-
spect to curriculum teaching and facilities offeredwill
be well taken care of. I would not even need to say
this, but I think that I can certainly say this on behalf
of the Ministry of Education, that the Ministrywould,
in every case, do everything it could to make these
facilities available to more and more people.

The Minister himself has said in an interview,
and I have said it here in the House before the occa-
sion of which he spoke, that the Ministry is looking
forward very keenly to people who have left school
but who are working and who, at the same time, wish
to renew or extend their studies to see that the evening
classes section of the Community College would
flourish and would be as popular as the ordinary day-
time classes. I would like to be able to come back to
the House and ask for more money on the ground that
the project is going better than we expected. I would
hate to have to ask for money on the ground that we
have made serious miscalculations. I do not thinkthat
we have made any serious miscalculations; I myself
think that our difficulties are going to come from the
fact that the response is going to be greater than the
Minister or his advisers or anybody else even now
envisages.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I had not
intended to speak in this debate on the points which
have been brought out by the hon. junior member for
St. Peter, and I do not propose to make the points
which, I feel sure, if he speaks after me, he will be
making in reply to some of the verbiage, and I say
that, not as a term of abuse, but the Hon. Minister
confused himself or contradicted himself. Imagine his
giving vent to a statement like this, that about a dozen
to twenty priorities (Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I said "pro-
jects") I turned to the hon. member on my left and
drew his attention to the absurdity of it. He did
not use the word "projects" at all; he was refer-
ring to projects. He said that there were no pri-
orities in education and almost immediately
afterwards he said that all of these things are pri-
orities. Straigh'way I turned to the hon. member on
my left and asked him if he heard that. "Everything
in education is priorityy" You have first-class
teachers, excellent results in the Secondary Schools
and barefoot children in a shantyl As to Primary
education, I do not say this as anexact comparison,
but suppose you were presented with these two posi-
tions I Would you say that keeping secondary education
at a high level is of equal priority to the barefoot
children in a shanty in a Primary school? That is
just verbiage.

Fluency in speech is very often avery dangerous
gift, because you go on talking and talking, and when
you have sat down, you have said nothing. One of the
outstanding products of the Oxford Union ofwhichthe
hon. member was a member, is that they produce
some of the greatest orators in the world and some of
the greatest rhetoricians, people who say things that
sound beautiful. They sit up night afternight, all night
sometimes, reading up what Burke said or somebody
even before Burke, so that very often theirlisteners
may not remember that what they are saying is only


a quotation. I do not want to seem to be the least bit
personal where the hon. member is concerned; we
all ought to sympathise with him for the fact that he
is now defending a position in the Ministry of Educa-
tion which, if it were sound, if he believed in it him-
self, he would have brought in last session, and not
now. Why has he got the Community College idea now,
and not when he was Minister of Education? It is either
ihat he did not believe init,orhe felt himself incom-
petent to put it over to the House, or he was just him-
self. Hon. members can read into thatwhatthey like,
but they will know what I mean. I did not intend to re-
fer to this because I did not want to anticipate the hon.
member who managed to get these answers from the
Hon. Minister, although they were things which Iwould
have asked if I had spoken before the hon. junior mem-
ber for St. Peter. I intend it to be the most serious
thing that I have ever said in this House. We have gone
much too far I am not talking now about the Rulings
of the Chair in sitting down supinely, and the people
of this country do not realise what is threatening them.

As the hon. senior member for St. Joseph has
said, the absence of newspapers, the absence of know-
ledge by the public of what goes on in here, can lead
to a proliferation of the acts of dictatorship which
this Government has been doing. It can lead to the
absolute destruction of the democratic system. By
accident in one case I just happened to see the book
at home and took it up and by design in the other, I
have just recently been refreshing my memory of the
life of Mussolini and the life of Hitler respectively,
of the subtle way in which, in the case of democratic
institutions Germany and Italy ceased to be anything,
but subservient to the dictator Hitler andthe dictator
Mussolini. I do not exaggerate; I am too old to talk just
childishness, what a school-boy would say. To my
mind, it is an absolute parallel in this Island at the
present moment, and if I never say anything else to
the people of Barbados, I say this tonight; you are
gradually drifting into the state that Italy and Ger-
many drifted into in the pre-Hitler and the pre-
Mussolini days, the early days when those dictators
just took away power from the people. Who could have
imagined that we would have livedto see in this Island
what we have seen in this Government recently a
matter of supreme importance to this territory?
Whether we should get away from the colonial sys-
tem completely and be on our own, and American
colonialism can be just as bad as British or it has
been; American Imperialism can be just as bad as the
British has been. You wonder what has been happen-
ing in this Colony; you will forgive me for saying,
"colony". I know that the hon. member in one of those
Oxford style replies might say : "Yes, 'Colony' is
always in his head." Of course, "colony" is always
in my head. Because you are a Colony, you should
try to get away from anything colonial, but we do not
want to go to the other extreme. We could join the
O. A. S. without a discussion in Parliament. We not
only did that, but the Prime Minister sneers at the
idea even of a discussion on thefloorof this Honour-
able House.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: At this point may I remind the
hon. member who is speaking......








1958


Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I wish youwould not in-
terrupt me. What have I done wrong?

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am reminding the hon. member
who is speaking, and he must not shout at me.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: No, but you may shout
at me. (Laughter).

Mr. CHAIRMAN: At this particular time you are
irrelevant.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I have the right to draw...

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would like you to try and speak
on the Community College Resolution which is before
you.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am speaking onit, and
if Your Honour will not interrupt me, youwill see that
it could not be more relevant.
6.15 p,m.

I am saying that bringing this Resolution today
is on a footing with the dictatorial acts of other people
who found themselves in the same position. If the
hon. member would, I repeat, keep up the dignity of
the Chair, he would not interrupt me.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: If the hon. member were to ad-
here to the Rules which are before him, I would not
have to interrupt.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: When I knew these Rules
by heart, Your Honour did not even know the meaning
of the word "House".

Mr. CHAIRMAN: We do notwant members know-
ing them; we want members observing them.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: When Speakers of the
House of Commons reached the Chair, they made it
as clear as daylight that they were independent and
no longer members of the Government, orthe Party,
that put them there. We would want to see that in this
House. Every little diminution of the Democratic pro-
cedure leads to dictatorship. You have it here now,
(ASIDES.) Ill-mannered interruption will not put me
off. Here in this House of Assembly you come down
with a Resolution -- (ASIDES.)

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would like to remind hon.
members of Standing Order 29(6) .

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I repeat that every di-
minution of the democratic process is a step towards
dictatorship. Barbados has gone somewhere along that
path. Not now; not this only. I would just mention the
O.A.S. What was the attitude of Barbados to Anguilla?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Again, the hon. member is ir-
revelant.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Do not interrupt me.
Mr. CIAIRMAN: I say the hon. memberisirre-
velant to the'subject under discussion, and 26(2) states:


"A Member shall confine his observations to the
subject under discussion, and may not introduce
matter irrevelant thereto."
That is the Rule that I am asking the hon. junior mem-
ber for St. Joseph to stick to.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am sticking to it, and
I am asking Your Honour to understand it.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Iwill understand it in due course.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Is it possible, in any
language, to make a speech without drawing analogies
to something else? (M-, J. M. G. M. ADAMS:
He does not know the mea .g of the word "anology",
so what is the point?) I say that something has hap-
pened with this Resolution that is one of the many
instances that has happened in the path of dictator-
ship. Who could make a speech in any language, or on
any subject, without drawing comparison to some-
thing else? That is if he has any intelligence, or any
real grey matter in his head.

You ignore the House; you treat the House with
contempt; you do not do the things that democrati-
cally you ought to do. Quote me on this, if you like.
Barbados is too quiet for some of these things. Stu-
dents here or students all over the world are making
a row. Of course, whether students make a row in the
rest of the world is irrevelant. We do not necessarily
agree with the extremes to which they go, but they
show that the spirit of resistance to wrong will take
place in any nation or country, whether it is taking
place with French students or Mexican students. I see
some little difference as to whether there should be
any outburst or indignation at the Campus here at
Cave Hill.


Now, I ask anybody how we can defend going and
telling the public: "You apply for jobs at $x a year,
although I have not put it to the House of Assembly
as yet." Defend that. What act of dictatorship is there
greater than that? The one fundamental thing thatwe
have followed, and every British territory has follow-
ed, is that supplies are in the hands of the Assembly
But you go and tell the public without a discussion,
without knowing that, perhaps, something might have
kept God, unfortunately, did not work it in that way -
members on the other side from having a majority
and we may have sat on this side and voted a reduc-
tion you go to the public and say: "We have not
asked the House for a cent. Why should we ask the
House? We are in the majority andwhateverwe want
will take place." Can anything like this I do not want
to exaggerate when I say in the three centuries of a
House of Assembly ever happen?

Even before the Principle was accepted we
have not been told that the Government or the
Department of Education pushed them aside we
were told that people were making applications for
these jobs, and then we heard that they were mak-
ing enquires as to what these jobs meant. But here
we have the public of Barbados until I was in-
terrupted I was going to remind hon. members that








1959


we had to read in a Trinidad Guardian what the
Prime Minister of Jamacia has said at an inter-
view in London as to what the attitude of the Gov-
ernment of Barbados was to sending Police and
troops to Anguilla.
6.25 p.m.

Nothing was said to the House. You are to be
presented with a Fait accompli. It was done; "we
have the numbers, let them talk and when they
finish we will out vote them." The OAS is child
play, but to tell the public that "We are not going
to the, House and asking them to vote a sum; this
is the sum we are going to pay." For us to read in
the newspaper before this Resolution came to us
what sums of money were to be paid out by the
Government of Barbados, and then you tell me this
is not a dictatorship? Not the slightest hint to us as
to what these sums would be. The hon. member, he
cannot help it sometimes, I will be generous and
chartiable and not use the word "always", twisted
today what he said last time. I have been very
careful. I do not know if hon. members had noted
it partly because some things we say here and
some things the Reporters seem to take down do
not appear in the Official Gazette, and yet there are
supposed to be tape recorders, Reporters are
supposed to hear them back, and we have to rely
on the notes we make for some of the things that
are said in here and are not reported even in the
Official Gazette. I have been very careful to take
it down. Last time the hon. member was being
asked to give us some idea of how much money
this would involve, what sort of salaries and so on.
He did not say itwas incomplete. That is what he
said today. He never said that before. I took it
down word for word. "I have been asked about the
financial Resolution for its cost to come down.
It would be improper to put it in this Bill which
is only on the principle of the Bill as to whether they
should be a college or not." Not a word about
"I cannot give you an estimate because it is in-
complete". That is the bogus trying-to-get-away
that the hon. member is so often guilty of. He said:
"When I was asked, I said that the Estimate was
incomplete." That is what I took down. That is
what he said today. I say again a Government
that says: "I am going to say what you are going
to get although I have not yet asked the House to
approve of it" is not a democratic Government,
is not the Government of Barbados. It is against the
Constitution of Barbados to spend money not al-
ready voted. I do not say that in this case we have
reached that stage. I do not say anybody has been
appointed and has been given a salary yet, though
I would not be surprised to find it happen with the
Hon. Leader of the House and the Prime Minister
of this Island having anything to do with it; but if
hon. members over there-even the member for
St. John-so constantly misbehaves himself I
withdraw the word if he is going to object to it -
so constantly behaves unlike the rest of his col-
leagues when he hears something he does not like,
even he will see that /if you can tell the public
what you are going to spend before it is voted by
the House of Assembly, you have torn up the Con-
stitution.


Regrettably, Heaven knows how few people have
heard or will read my speech, but if I have to spend
night after night I will draw it to the attention
of Barbados that they can find a Government giv-
ing away money, that the time is not far off, to
judge from their past actions, when the Government
can appoint somebody in an office and pay him
beforehand his salary, and then come to the House
and ask you to vote, and it would pass because we
would be out numbered. Gone are our freedoms,
if that is to be the principle adopted by the Gov-
ernment of Barbados. Imagine the insult even for-
get the constitutional aspect the insult to a
member of the House, as it happened to me, for
somebody to come up to me with a newspaper and
say: "I see you are going to have a Principal at
$10,000; you are going to have so-and-so." That
is how I knew. A Government that just ignores,
contemptuously treats, the Opposition cannot last
forever, and when this Government is overthrown,
it will fall like Lucifer never to rise again, because
there are going to be so many people ......

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Conduct of hon. members,
Rule 29 (6).

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: There are going to be
so many people; the Barbadian is intelligent; the
standard of education is high and widely spread,
and he is going to ask himself-and I challenge
anybody to get on a platform and contradict what I
have just said to this House. I challenge any mem-
ber on the other side to go on a platform and say:
"We had a perfect right to fix. salaries and to ad-
vertise for posts at these salaries and then come to
the House and ask them to vote." I challenge any
one, any member of the other side, to get up in
public and say that. He could not be so brazen.
"Let us do what we want to do, no matter who
gets vexed, no matter how much the Opposition
talks. We have our numbers. Let us do whatever
we want to do, let us tell the public we are spend-
ing such-and-such money and then go and beg for
it,"- well, not beg "then go and throw it at the
Opposition" because when you come in here you
put the Resolution; you do or do not make expla-
nations. I am glad to say that hon. members know
what I think of the hon. member's veracity; so
I would not repeat it. (Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Like
yours.) But no human being has ever said of me what
I have said of you without contradiction, that is,
that on oath I would not believe you. (Hon. J. C.
TUDOR: Why would Iworry to contradict you? I have
done it too many times.) On oath I would not believe
you and I have many reasons for doing it. I do
not want to be personal. I do not want to rake up.
Great respect for members of your family has
prevented me from exposing you in several things.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would like the hon. member
to continue with the Resolution before him.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: The hon. member
said "you". I just made the previous mistake in
quoting what he said and I apologise to the Chair
for following the hon. member and falling into an
error. I say again, and it is not necessary for me








1960


-to repeat it in here because I can see from the
reaction on the faces of all hon. members, and one
opposite and he is beyond hope-and the hon.
member who just guffawed was the only hon. mem-
ber who would bite at my bait. I repeat for the last
time, Mr. Chairman, you have gone muchtoo far in
tearing up democratic procedure. Do not let us
have another Resolution which comes down here for
a sum of money that you have already told the pub-
lic I repeat : apart from the contempt of treating
the House like that, you have already told the pub-
lic what you propose to spend, and therefore imply
that you have the right to spend. You know that hon.
member purported to give us a little pat on the back
when he said we put forward good amendments and
so on, that the thing was thoroughly debated. Of
course it was, but it never dawned on members of
the Cabinet who agreed to this, or is this another
instance where the Cabinet only hears afterwards?
I have already told hon. members this is a small
Island, we have ears and there are plenty of mouths
in this Island. A lot of things that happen in the
Cabinet we know or we could not speak so con-
fidently on this side of the House. We know that
some hon. members do not agree with the major-
ity; of course, the majority is supine. I cannot
picture any of them resigning because they differ
from the Prime Minister. Did it occur to them that
possibly $50 might have been lopped off something,
even some of the small votes, or anything like that?
No! "Let us see what the Minister of Education
has put up to us and we will get through because we
have our numbers." That is the stage a democra-
tic House of Assembly has reached!

Mr. Chairman, I think I have made my points
sufficiently, at any rate, in this House. It is a
point which I shall not cease to make day in and
day out at every opportunity I have to make it to
the public of Barbados, because they have got
to be on guard to see that this taking away, this
pulling away of the democratic process bit by bit
inside this House and in the Cabinet- all these
things will eventually lead to the day, just as hon.
members who want to resign dare not now lead
to the day when they are going to give in as the Ital-
ian Grand Council gave in to Mussolini, so this
Grand Council are going to have to follow every-
thing the Prime Minister puts to them.
6.35 p.m.

Every now and then you will see some Min-
ister in a democratic country sometimes, I re-
minded the House earlier to-day, even for mistakes
by a Civil Servait in his- Department, resigning
because the ultimate responsibility is his. If a
Civil Servant does something very wrong, over and
over again, not only in Great Britian orinFrance,
you see a Minister resigning because it is his re-
sponsibility. It should never have happened in his
Department. When hon. members are able, whether
from spirit or from finance, to tell the Prime Min-
ister "You could not be more wrong; find another
Minister", we will restore democracy in this Island.
-It is better to be known for your courage... (ASIDES).
When the Hon. Leader of the House has finished


talking across the floor of the Housop I will con-
tinue. Does the Hon. Leader of the House think that
anybody believed him for a-.moment when he said,
in that great change when his owncolleagues remind-
ed him about what he promised about broadcasting,
that he would resign if his colleagues differed from
him did anybody; believe him or thoughti that it
would be so? He cannot afford.. (Hon, J. C. TUDOR:
You had better sit down; you do not know what you
are saying) Mr. Chairman, is it in order for an hon.
member to shout across at me telling me to sit
down even if he is the Leader of the House? This
House did not mind, behind his back and without
an opportunity to withdraw in the House, suspend-
ing the Leader of the Opposition. When I met one
or two members of Parliament outside the West
Indies asking: "What, the Leader of the Opposition
suspended?", they do not know Barbados. But I will
say nothing about that. I merely say that ifthe Hon.
Leader of the House can sit uncorrected and talk
across the House ......

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I will again draw the hon.
member's attention to the relevant Standing Order
which says: "While a Member is speaking, all
other Members shall be silent or shall confer
only in undertoned, and shall not make unseemly
interruptions."

At the same time, I also would appeal to the
Hon. junior member for St. Joseph to stick as
closely as is humanly possible to the Resolution
which is under discussion.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am sticking as
closely as is humanly possible to the Resolution
under discussion, but I am also : sticking to the in-
evitability of anybody to deal with any subject
without drawing comparison or analogies with others.
That is impossible in any language. I set out to
show that this is the culmination of a number of
undemocratic things which have been taking place
in this Island and to draw the conclusion from that,
that unless it is stopped, hon. members facing me
will wake up one day like the Grand Councils who
woke up and found Mussolini saying: "I am Italy,
you do what I say." (ASIDES). Perhaps, Your Honour
will remind the hon, member again he may not
have heard of the Rule to which you have just
referred him. I repeat 'or the last time that it is
unnecessary to add more in this House, but I will
promise hon. members that at every suitable oppor-
tunity I have outside of this House, I will draw to the
attention of the people of Barbados that the House
of Assembly does not matter in the eyes of the
CabLiet. Cabinet colleagues do not agree, the Prime
Minister says: "It must be done and the Opposition
does not matter; they are only ten anyhow and we
can always out-vote them. Let it go down and we
can rely on the Leader of the House to make out a
case, although a lot of it may be against himself."

Why is this? I repeat, why did we not have all of
this debate when the hon. member was Minister of
Education? Do you tell me that the hon. member
believed in this and did not bring it down before? If








1961


-he does not believe in it and did not believe in it-
then, he is only defending the present Minister
of Education and is he not just making a speech?
If this is one of these priorities which does not differ
from other priorities and therefore you can bring
it down before you bring down others, why did the
hon. member not bring it down when he was Min-
ister of Education? The hon. member said that he
left the Ministry of Education; he did not leave the
Ministry of Education,' he did not want to give it
up; it left him; And the hon. member never recov-
ered from that in the estimation even of himself,
let alone that of the general public.

Mr. Chairman, it is almost impossible for me,
for many years now, of course, not to make a pro-
found study of Parliamentary history and Parlia-
mentary procedure. I do not know if there is any
book, except an occasional detective story, that I
studied more than I studied my May's Parliamentary
Procedure, because it is but fitting that when an
hon. member in this House gets up and makes a
statement or a proposition or a motion or what-
ever it is, he should be quite sure he isinorder
otherwise, he may be just preying on the lack of
knowledge of some of his colleagues who may not
have made a proper study of it. Therefore I feel
it my duty after so many years in this Assembly and
after spending what I may say the last more than
twenty years in being more concerned with Par-
liamentary matters than anything else including
matters affecting my legal profession, to say, Mr.
Chairman, for your benefit as well as for the ben-
efit of all other hon. members, that I do not try
to catch anybody with anything wrong, illegal or
smart. I do not put forward anything hoping that my
hearers do not know that it is wrong and therefore
they will not object. I endeavour always in every-
thing that I bring forward, every objection I make,
to act in accordance with the Rules.

I promise you, Mr. Chairman, or anybody else
who sits in that Chair, that I shall never attempt
to say or to do anything which will cause the Chair-
man rightly to haul me up. If that is the general
understanding and act of all of us, then this House
will once again have the respect and almost vener-
ation which this House had in the past, from other
members of Parliament in the Caribbean area.
Over and over again, in the past we used to have
people saying: "Good Heavens, I wish we could say
things like that about our Government", and so on.
Let us go backto that stage, let us observe the Rules
and the Rulings of the Chair, and let the Chair also
remember that we owe a duty to the Chair to re-
spect it and the Chair equally owes a duty to mem-
bers of the House not to conclude or even to suggest
or,suppose that members of the House are, in any
way, inclined to disrespect the Chair or to attempt
to break the Rules.
6.45 p.m.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the
House told us that, during his term of office as
Minister of Education, he saw to it that some
31000 chiWren, or persons, were benefiting from


Continuation Classes, he calls them, and over two
dozen of these are functioning.

Now, Sir, let us examine the proposal toaestab-
lish this Community College against the background
of all the existing facilities that the Hon. Minister
found, and the additional two dozen and over Con-
tinuation Classes that he helped to establish. Let us
say that the Minister .provided these Continuation
Classes for 3,000 persons. There are thousands
who were taught at the Evening Institute, the Tech-
nical Institute and the Housecraft Centre before.
But let us put all of those aside.

Here is a case where the new Minister of
Education finds it more necessary to educate 300
students in a Community College than to go to the
rescue of even the 3,000 that the Minister had been
helping with his Continuation Classes! The new
Minister finds it more necessary to provide accom-
modation at the Community College for only 300,
leaving the 3,000 plus 1,000 that the former Minister
found at the various Centres scattered all over the
Island. He makes no provision to being those scat-
tered 3,000 plus other thousands scattered all over
the Island at Centres everywhere. He is not con-
cerned with those people at all. But there is one
thing that strikes me most forcibly in this whole
scheme of things. It is patent, it is abundantly
clear that either the Hon. Introducer of this Re-
solution does not know what he is talking about and
what the Community College proposes to do, or
the Minister of Education who will be looking after
the Community College does not understand the
whole scheme of things educational in this Island.

I wish, Mr. Chairman, to draw the Hon. Leader
of the House's attention to Chapteri24, para. 189,
of the Report of the Ministry of Education for the
period 1st September, 1957, to 31st October, 1960.
What I want to draw his attention to underthatpara-
graph is this: "It is hoped to have Post-Secondary
Education, Technical and Vocational Training." The
Report goes on to list details of expenditure on Post-
Secondary Education for the period 1959 1960.

The Minister tells us that the Community
College is a Post Secondary College. I want to
know from the Minister if the children from the
Community College are going to sit the Barba-
dos Scholarship.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Yes, of course.

Mr. HINDS: He tells me "Yes." In para. 189
the expenditure is set out as against the Techni-
cal Institute, the Housecraft Centres, Mobile Cinema
Operation Expenses, cost of living allowances and
the Barbados Scholarships. This is under Post-Sec-
ondary Technical and Vocational Education. Now,
since this College is a Post-Secondary Education
Institute the Minister made mention of the Tech-
nical Institute, and I am willing to sit down at this
stage and let him explain to me what is going to
become of the Technical Institute after the Com-
munity College has been established. That is what
I want to know.








1962


Now I am going to let the Minister understand
straight and plain what is the Government's plan.
The Government have a plan for the construction
of a new Technical Institute on a site to be selec-
ted. We have not been told that plan has been
scrapped. They go on to tell you that they estimate
that this is to cost $100,000. An application for a
capital grant has been made to the Ministry of
Overseas Development to assist with the project.
There will be a new Technical Institute, and the
recommendations of Mr. J. Gailer are yet to be
implemented. It is proposed to use that old Tech-
nical Institute for other purposes. I askthehon.
Minister to tell us now what are the other pur-
poses they propose to use the old Technical In-
stitute for.

The Report goes on to say:
"Essential equipment for the present In-
stitute and extension of the mechanical work-
shop to be provided from fuads in this item -
in this $100,000."
I am waiting here until they come for this
$100,000.
6.55 p.m.

You wonder where I got this information from,
but that is your business; it does not trouble me.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: It is not my business.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, on a point
of Order, I beg to move that the question be now
put.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question that the question be now put was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, you are inviting
me to resort to violence. Report the matter to the
Speaker. Here I am on my feet. I have not sat
for a single moment. Do you mean I have no rights
in here?

The question that the Resolution do now pass was
put and resolved in the affirmative without division.


SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1968-69 No.18
A Resolution for S990 was called

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I beg
to move that this House be now dissolved. After
that, anything can happen.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I am drawing to
your attention that I was standing on my feet ad-
dressing this House when you put the question.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: And according to Standing
Order No. 32 Closure of Debate I have put the
question. I want hon. members to be reminded that
it reads as follows:


"After a question has been proposed, a Mem-
berrisinginhisplace may claim to move "That
the question be now put"; and, unless it appears
to the Chair that such motion is an abuse of the
rules of the House, or an infringement of the rights
of the minority, the question "That the question
be now put" shall be put forthwith ......" that is
what I have done because in my opinion it is not
an abuse ..." and decided without amendment
or debate notwithstanding that the mover has had
no opportunity to make his reply."


Mr. HINDS: I have to respect the ruling of the
Chair, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am speaking.

Mr. HINDS: You referred to standing Order 32.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I will ask the hon. juniormem-
ber for St. Peter to sit.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, you drew my atten-
tion to Standing Order 32.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On a point of order,
Mr. Chairman, I have just entered the House.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Already the question has been
put and carried.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: The Order requires
that you must state that nine hon. members voted
in the affirmative. Read the Order again, if you
think you know it.



Mr. CHAIRMAN: There was no division called,
and I am asking the hon. member to sit. I asked
the Clerk of the House if a division was called
for and his reply was "No", and in the absence
of a division, if hon. members were to read their
Rules, they would see that the questionwas legally
put.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman ......

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I will ask the hon. member for
the third and last time to sit.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman ......

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am on my feet. The question
has already been put, and I have absolutely nothing
more to say.
Mr. HINDS: Our duty is to walk out there and
meet the Speaker and not let him get to the Chair.
That is our duty this evening. Let us get around
there and meet the Speaker.

SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Mr. CHAIRMAN left the Chair and Mr. SPEAKER
took the Chair.








1963


Mr. SPEAKER:, It is now after 7 o'clock, and
this sitting is automatically suspended until 7.45
o'clock p.m.

ON RESUMPTION

Mr. SPEAKER: When the sitting was suspen-
ded, the House was in Committee of Supply.


Mr. CHAIRMAN left the Chair and the House re-
sumed Committee of Supply, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.


Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, when this Housewas
in Committee earlier, I was drawing to your atten-
tion the fact that the Government has plans for.........

Mr. CHAIRMAN: May I ask on what is the hon.
junior menber for St. Peter speaking? A Resolution
for $990 is now before this Committee. If he is
talking ......

Mr. SMITH: On a point of order ...

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I will hear the hon. member
on the point of order. (Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS:
Don't shout!) I am not to be directed by any hon.
member, and I will not be.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: It is not fair to hon.
members to have you shout.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I said I will hear the hon.
senior member for St. Joseph on his point of order.
What is the hon. junior memberforSt. Joseph now
speaking on?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order,
is it fair to hon. members, when the equipment
magnifies your voice so much, for you to shout?

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, on a point of
order, I heard you say that anotherResolutionwas
called other than the Resolution that was before us.
I am drawing to your attention that I was in the
Chamber at the time when you put the question
and I did not hear any motion made by any mem-
ber for the question to be put. Mr. Chairman,
I am speaking to you and you cannot be speaking
to the Marshal at the same time.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am listening to the point
of order being made by the hon. senior member
for St. Joseph.

Mr. SMITH: Well, you must pay me that re-
spect as a member of this Chamber and not be
talking to anyone when I am speaking. It is a gross
disregard.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member for
St. Joseph continue with his point of order?

Mr. SMITH: Yes. I will continue with it, but
too far East is West. I was saying, Sir, that when


I was in the Chamber thehon.juniormemberfor
St. Peter was speaking, and out of the blue I heard
you put the question.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: For the information of the
hon. senior member for St. Joseph, the motion
was made by the Leader of the House and it was
seconded by the hon. junior member for Christ
Church. If you were in the House and not paying
attention, I have absolutely nothing more to say.

Mr. SMITH: Now, Sir, the hon. member was on
his feet, and I feel it was gross discourtesy for a
member to jump to his feet and put a motion. If
the Hon. Leader of the House did that, which I
believe, he should -now better. And then it was
aggravated by the hon. junior member for Christ
Church who made it worse, because he knew bet-
ter also. We were all in here before you. If the
hon. junior member for Christ Church seconded the
motion, he was wrong also. There is a Rule that if
a member is on his feet and another member's
voice can be heard, that is a breach; therefore
he has broken the Rules of this House. You know
the Rule better than I do, because Ialwayshear
you drawing it to the attention of hon. members
when another is on his feet and others are talking.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. member has
made his point of order. What we are concerned
about ......

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, I am appealing
to you.
7.50 p.m.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I have heard the point of or-
der. If the hon. member were to sit, I would like
to refer him to Standing Order 35 which says this:

"The Speaker in the House or the Chairman
in Committee shall be responsible for the obser-
vance of the rules of order in the House and Com-
mittee respectively, and his decision upon any point
of order shall not be open to appeal and shall
not be reviewed by the House except upon a
substantive motion."

I rule that the hon. memberhas made his point
of order. I am hearing the next Resolution.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order.....

Mr. CHAIRMAN: There cannot be a point of
order when the Chairman is on his feet.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman ......

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am hearing at this time -
the Clerk has already called a Resolution for $990.

Mr. SMITH: I did not hear it.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am not going to be terrified
by this type of behaviour from hon. members.








1964


*I say that the Clerk has called the Resolution to
which I am listening. Will the Hon. Leader of the
House proceed with the Resolution? (ASIDES) This
is about the eighth time that I have called the hon.
junior member for St. Peter to order, and if he
does not sit now, I will have absolutely no hesita-
tion in making sure .... (ASIDES) I am hearing the
Hon. Leader of the House.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, am I to understand
that the hon. junior member for St. Peter cannot
rise again to address the Chair?

Mr. CHAIRMAN Under Standing Order 36(2)
"The Speaker or the Chairman shall order Mem-
bers whose conduct is grossly disorderly to with-
draw immediately from the House during the remain-
der of that day's sitting, and the Marshal shall
act on such orders as he may receive from the
Chair in pursuance of this Order."

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: You are inviting vio-
lence.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am asking for the last time,
the hon. junior member for St. Peter to sit, and I am
hearing no other than the Hon. Leader of the House
on a Resolution for $990. Will the Hon. Leader of the
House proceed?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR rose to speak.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, on a point of explan-
ation.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: There can be no explanation
towards the hon. senior member for St. James
because he has offered no contributions to the
debate on this Resolution. Will the Hon. Leader
of the House proceed?

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, I heard you read
from Standing Order 35 just now. Am I to understand
that when the Hon. Leaderof the House gotup and
moved ...

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. senior member
for St. James sit?

I am making this last appeal. The hon. senior
member for St. James is disobeying the Chair and
for the last time I am asking him to sit.


Mr. CRAIG: Do you mean to say that I have
not got the right to make this appeal?


Mr. CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member assist
the Chair?

(Mr. SMITH: You want pulling out and beating.
That is what you want).


Mr. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Leader of the House..


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, ...


Mr. CHAIRMAN: There are two hon. members
on their feet.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am on my feet alone.
I appeal to the hon. member to see that from little
beginnings great conflagrations may start. We have
been lucky here in Barbados that our people are
so quiet. But can't the hon. member see trouble?

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am asking the Hon. Leader
of the House to proceed with the Resolution, and I
will hear him.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Are you throwing
kerosene oil in the fire? (A MEMBER: I agree with
you).

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am asking the Hon, Leader
of the House to proceed with the Resolution.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Here I am making an
appeal for peace. I am appealing to the Hon. Leader
of the House to see the inflammatory state of the
House and to move the adjournment of the House.
He owes it to the whole community if anything
flares up tonight in this Place. He must see the
temper of the House, and I appeal to him to see
that he, and he alone, has the means of preventing
trouble.

Mr. SMITH: I am appealing to you, Mr. Leader,
because I feel that more than two of us are going
across to Coleridge Street. I appeal to you.

CHAIRMAN REPORTS PROGRESS

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I beg to
move that you do now report progress and ask
for leave for the Committee to sit again.
iCheers and Asides.)

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.


The question was put and resolved in the affirma-
tive without division.


The CHAIRMAN reported and Mr. SPEAKER resumed
the Chair and reported accordingly.


THE ADJOURNMENT

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this House do now adjourn until Friday next at
3.00 o'clock p.m. (ASIDES) Are you in a mood to
be asked anything?

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I appeal to you, surely
whatever feeling there may be on matters, that in
appointing a day other than the normal day which
one would expect, surely, it is not asking too much
of the Hon. Leader of the House to approach the
Leader of the Opposition to see if that day suits.








1965


I am not practising at the Bar, but there are barris-
ters on our side. Every barrister knows that he has
to come here on Tuesdays, but surely, Friday is a
difficult day for barristers. If you intendto make the
day Friday, surely you should ask ...
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I take it that the hon.
member is not so much objecting to the day as the
time of the day. Is that it?
8.00 p.m.
Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I can be very co-
operative. If the Government want to do business
and they say three o'clock on Friday, what could
prevent them from saying three o'clock on Thurs-
day. I am nothing to do with any lawyers going to
Court; a lawyer could never go to Court for me.
(Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: One of these days lawyer
may have to defend you in Court.) Not me; a law-
yer will never have to defend me; I can defend my-
self. If the Hon. Minister wants to do business, he
can save me tonight from going to gaol. He should
throw oil on troubled waters. If he wants to come
back, let it be Thursday at three o'clock.
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I am afraid I cannot accept
that. Thursday is a bit awkward for members on
this side. It is Cabinet Day; I cannot say how long
a particular meeting would last, and therefore I
would not like to commit even myself to a time
like three o'clock on Thursday. It is unsuitable.


Mr. SMITH: The Cabinet cannot sit all day.
We can come here at six or seven o'clock. We used
to sit at night before. I do not know if you were in the
House then. To accommodate you, let us make it
five or six o'clock.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: What about a later hour
on Friday, say, six o'clock.

Mr. SMITH: I do not know what the others will
say.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: What about 4.30 p.m. on
Friday?

Mr. SMITH: I will agree to4.30p.m. on Friday.

ADJOURNMENT

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this House do now adjourn until 4.30 p.m. on
Friday of this week.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question that this House do now adjourn until
Friday, 9th August, 1968, at 4.30 p.m. was put and re-
solved in the affirmative without division, and Mr. SPEAKER
adjourned the House accordingly.
8.05 p.m.










THE


SENATE


(OFFICIAL REPORT)


SECOND SESSION OF 1966 71


THE SENATE

Thursday, 1st February, 1968
The Senate met in the Senate Chamber, Public
Buildings, at 3 o'clock p.m. today.

PRESENT

His Honour Senator E. S. ROBINSON, C. B. E.,
(President); His Honour. Senator C. Asquith PHILLIPS,
B.A., (Deputy President); Senator the Honourable P.M.
GREAVES, B.A. (Minister of Home Affairs); Senator
the Honourable F. G. SMITH, Q.C. (Attorney General);
Senator the Honourable L. E. SANDIFORD, M.A.
(Minister of Education); Senator H. Odessa GITTENS,
M.R.S.H. (Parliamentary Secretary); Senator S. V.
ASHBY; Senator W. W. BLACKMAN, M.B.E.; Sena-
tor F. C. H. CAREW; Senator E. Lisle WARD; Sena-
tor S. A. BLANCHETTE; Senator D. A. WILES,
C.M.G., O.B.E.; Senator F. L. WALCOTT, O.B.E.;
Senator Erma V. ROCK; Senator H. F. ALKINS; Sena-
tor Dr. R. B. CADDLE, B.Sc., M.B.B.S.; Senator
P. G. MORGAN; Senator R. G. MAPP and Senator
M. A. KING.

ABSENT

Senator C. L. BRATHWAITE; Senator N. A.
BARROW, B.A.

Prayers were said.



EXCUSES FOR ABSENCE

The Clerk informed the Senate that he had been
asked to offer excuses for the absence of Senator
C. L. Brathwaite and Senator N. A. Barrowfrom the
day's meeting.




APPOINTMENT OF LEADER OF THE SENATE

Before the Business of the day was enteredupon
His Honour the President read the text of the following
letter from the Permanent Secretary to the Prime
Minister.


Prime Minister's Office,
Government Headquarters,
Barbados.
21st December, 1967.

Sir,

I am directed by the Prime Minister to inform
you that consequent on the resignation from the Senate
of Mr. H. A. Vaughan who had been Leader of the
Senate, he has appointed Senator the Honourable
P. M. Greaves, Minster of Home Affairs, to be
Leader of the Senate with effect froml5th December,
1967.

I am,


Your obedient servant,


(Sgd.) F. M. BLACKMAN
Permanent Secretary.

Senator the Honourable E. S. Robinson, C.B.E.,
President of the Senate.

ANNOUNCEMENTS

Mr. PRESIDENT: I have to inform Senators of an
unfortunate incident which took place within the pre-
cincts of this honourable Senate on Tuesday last, and
which I deem as a breach of parliamentary privilege.

I have addressed the following letter to His Hon-
our the Speaker of the Other Place:-

Dear Mr. Speaker,
I have been informed that on Tuesday last,
the 30th January, 1968, certain honourable members
of the House of Assembly made use of the Senate's
lunchroom between the hours of 2 p.m. and2.30 p.m.
without asking my permission,

I now write to bring to Your Honour's attention
that under the Standing Orders of the Senate I am
charged, as President of the Senate, with the re-
sponsibility of granting permission to the Press and
strangers to make use of the Senate Chamber and its
precincts. I also have power underthe same Standing
Orders to order the withdrawal of the Press and


DEBATES










other strangers from any part of the Senate Chamber
and its precincts.
My permission by certain members of the House
of Assembly to use the Senate's lunchroom was
neither sought, nor asked for, and in the circum-
stances the use of this room without permissionwas,
in my opinion, a breach of Parliamentary privilege
by those honourable members involved.

I would thus be greatly obliged if you, Mr.
Speaker, would convey to them my displeasure of
their action and I trust that this act of discourtesy to
the Senate will not be repeated in future.
I am,
Yours faithfully,
E. S. ROBINSON,
President of the Senate.
I would ask the clerk to have that letter incor-
porated in the Minutes of today's proceedings.
PETITION

SENATOR H. F. ALKINS: Mr. President-I beg
to give notice of a petition on behalf of Messrs.
Manning & Company Limited. This firm owns-a build-
ing at the head of Broad Street known as number one
Broad Street. They would like to demolish this build-
ing and erect another building thereon. They have
applied to the Town & Country Planning Department
for permission and this permission has been granted.

In the proposed re construction work the re will be
certain changes in the building and lands both on
Trafalgar Square and on the Wharf. The firm has been
advised that it is necessary to obtain an Act of the
Legislation and they are asking that a Bill be passed
to give them permission to effect this change.

The Petition is respectfully worded and I ask
that it be taken as read.

PAPERS

Senator the Honourable P. M. Greaves, Minister
of Home Affairs and Leader of the Senate, laid the
following Papers:

(i) Report of the Standing Insurance Com-
mittee and Statement of Accounts of the
General Insurance Fund for the year
1965-66.
(ii) Report of the Standing Insurance Com-
mittee and Statement of Accounts of the
General Insurance Fund for the year
1966-67.

(iii) The National Insurance and Social Se-
curity (Stamps) Regulations, 1967.

(iv) Financial Statements of the Urban De-
velopment Corporation for the period
ended 31st March, 1967.

(v) The Customs Duties (Joint Research
Centre of the Universities of the West
Indies and Sussex) Order, 1968.


(vi) An Account of the Transactions in Rum
in the Several Districts of the Island for
the quarter ended 31st December, 1967.
(vii) Statement showing Net Customs and
Excise Receipts for eight months ended
30th November, 1967.

(viii) Statement showing Net Customs and
Excise Receipts for nine months ended
31st December, 1967.

(ix) The tenth Annual Report of the Housing
Authority for the period 1st April, 1965
31st March, 1966.

QUESTIONS

Question No. 9 Asked by Senator N. A. Barrow
on 29th June, 1967.

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-
1. Will the Minister please state whether it
is the policy of Government to pay higher salaries
to persons holding qualifications gained abroad in the
field of Music than to persons holding the equivalent
qualifications in the same field, but gained locally?
2. If the answer to No. 1 is no, will the Min-
ister state whether he is aware that this is the case
at present obtaining and state what steps he-intends
to take to remedy the situation?
REPLY
"1. It is not the policy of Government to pay
higher salaries to persons holding qualifications
gained abroad in the field of Music (or any other
field) than to persons holding the equivalent quali-
fications gained locally in the same field.
2. This is not the case at present obtaining."

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE (CURRENT) No.36
His Honour the President called the first Order -
A Resolution to place the sum of $34,340 at the dis-
posal of the Government to supplement the Estimates
1967-68 Part 1 Current as shown in the Supple-
mentary Estimates 1967-68 which form the Schedule
to the Resolution.
SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
Mr. President At long last the end of the revision of
the Laws of Barbados is in sight. The first two vol-
umes will be ready by Easter and the complete set
of these volumes will be ready by the end of 1969.
The printing of these Laws which is being under-
taken by Messrs. Eyre & Spottiswoode Limited will
incur anexpenditure of just over $100,000. It is an-
ticipated that we will require about 750 copies of
these Laws for use by the members of Legislature,
the. Crown Law Officers, Solicitors' firms, Statutory
Boards and other copies which private individuals
will be entitled to purchase.

As I said just now, the firsttwovolumes will be
ready by Easter. There are no funds available from
which this expenditure can be met and the amount of
$34, 340 which is being sought in this Resolution is
the amount required for the completion of this work.











I move,, Sir, that the Resolution be concurred in.,

Senator the Honourable F. G. Smith seconded the
motion.
SENATOR C. ASQUITH PHILLIPS: Mr. Presi-
dent, This Resolution of course commends itself
to senators and I share the relief of the Honourable
Leader of the Senate that at long last this revision of
Laws is coming to an end.
But, IthinkSir, that it is apity that the Govern-
ment Printery could not have undertaken this job;
but I appreciate that the Printery is not now geared
to do work of this magnitude. I would like, however, to
ask the Leader of the Senate whether members of the
Legislature will be entitled to copies of the revised
Laws in the same way that we are favoured with
copies of the Official Gazette. I think that for this
Chamber particularly such a small tokenwill be very
welcomed.
SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
Two points have been raised by Senator Phillips. One
is the question of the printing of the Laws by the Gov-
ernment Printery, and the other one relates to the
availability of these Laws to members of the Senate.
I take it that he was speaking as a member of the
Senate.
As regards the first question, I think that the
Senator answered it himself when he said that the
Government Printery at the moment is not geared
for work of this magnitude. At the same time I think
that it would be a good thing if work of this nature
could be done in the island if even not by the Govern-
ment Printery.
I would state also that the award of the contract
to Messrs. Eyre & Spottiswoode Limited was made
as far back as 1960 and they then accepted the con-
tract to print the Laws. There could be then no ques-
tion of this Government taking back the contract.
As regards the second question, I do not know
why Senator Phillips would want me to commit the
Government on this matter at this stage. I do not know
if it is a question of budgeting to purchase one if free
copies are available. I can only say that copies will
be made available to members of the Legislature.
The question that the Resolution be concurred in
was put and agreed to.
SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (CAPITAL) No.38
His Honour the President called the Second
iOrder A Resolution to place the sum of $80,838 at
the disposal of the Government to supplement the
Estimates 1967-68 Part II Capital as shownin the
Supplementary Estimates 1967-68 No. 38whichform
the Schedule to the Resolution.
SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
Mr. President, The supplementary provisions
sought under Head 102 represent claims that were
unpaid at the end of the last financial year in re-
spect of expenditure incurred before the end of that
year. These claims were made too late for payment
to be made during that year.
I can give some background information on some
of these items. Under Item 3 expenditure at the end


I.


of the financial year 1966-67 amounted to $111,268
'leaving a balance of $68,732 unexpended. A revote
of this unexpended balance would not be adequate
to settle the outstanding commitments which amount
to $80,000 so that supplementary provision of some
$11,284 is sought for this purpose. The reason for
this supplementary provision is that the purchase
of some of these items amounted to more than had
been quoted by the Crown Agents at the time of their
arrival.
With respect to Item 21 A, a provision of
$14,000 was made in this year's Estimates to com-
plete the work of repairs to the Pierhead. The ac-
tual expenditure at the end of 1966-67 amounted to
$23,228.90 and the balance in the vote was $8,385.10.
There is a further amount of $17,608. The amount
now required to supplement this Head is $158.

Under Item 21B, in the 1966-67 Estimates
$14,800 was provided for the purpose of installing
radio-telephone equipment for the Ministry of Com-
munications and Works. At the end of that financial
year $14,571.80 was spent and the balance was
$228.20. A claim for $98 has now been received in
respect of the payment of abillforelectrical equip-
ment supplied to the Ministry during the last finan-
cial year. No provision was made in this year's
Estimate and therefore that sum of $98 is now re-
quired.
Under Item 21C, the amount of $3,789 was put
in the Capital Estimates to meet the cost of exten-
sion of the Government Printing Office and the Town
and Country Planning Department. Capital Expendi-
ture to the end of the financial year 1966-67 amounted
to $768.10. Outstanding commitments at the end of the
financial year amounted to $564.45 but no provision
was made in this year's Estimates to meet this
amount.
Mr. President, the total amount required under
this Resolution is $80,838 and I move that the Reso-
lution be concurred in.

Senator the Honourable F. G. Smith secondedthe
motion.

The question was put and agreed to.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (CAPITAL) NO. 39
His Honour the President called the third Order
- A Resolution to place the sum of $123,623 at the
disposal of the Government to supplement the Esti-
mates 1967-68 Part II Capital as shown in the Sup-
plementary Estimates 1967-68 No. 39 which form
the Schedule to the Resolution.
SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
Mr. President, the plans for the new Terminal Build-
ing at Seawell Airport were prepared in the financial
year 1965-66 and it was estimated at that time for
$330,000. Since then there were improvements and
work not originally provided for; for instance, the
conveyor belt was not originally provided for in the
plans, and accommodation for the meteorological
office was not originally provided for in the plans,
but it was felt that these were very necessary. To










give a breakdown of the approved estimates for
1965-66 up to the present time, it would be as fol-
lows:-

The original estimate was $330,000; subse-
quently, the conveyor belt and the meteorological of-
fices were estimated at $1,704.96, making a total
of $400,496. The expenditure for the year 1965-66
was $81,843.78 and for 1966-67, $154,270.13. The
expenditure up to the end of the last financial year
amounted to $236,114 leaving a balance of $164,382,
but in this year's estimates (1967-68) an amount of
$101,500 was included.

However, in preparing the plans for the new
terminal building, no provision appears to have been
made for the new roadworks resulting from the east-
ward extension of the existing building, nor for addi-
tional car parking facilities. These are very
necessary items of expenditure, and the estimates
will be as follows:


New eastward roadworks
Additional car park facilities


$ 15,250
3,287


In addition to this, since the construction work
was begun, on the new terminal building, salaries
and wages have increased. Therefore, in respect of
wages, they are being also increased by $27,263. It
has been found necessary to renovate the existing
shopping area and display showcase arcade, as well
as to convert the existing departure lounge into addi-
tional airline offices and provide a coveredwayover
the baggage conveyor entrance. In these plans the
main entrance hall and Customs hallwill now become
the intransit and departure lounge, and the Customs
hall and Immigration Department will be housed in the
new extension that has been put there. It is also es-
timated that to retile the main concourse the cost
would be about $5,000.

I have gone very carefully into these items of
expenditure in order to show how it is that $123,000,
or an amount as vast as this, becomes very necessary
over and above what had already been voted, and I
move that this Resolution be concurred in.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH:
I beg to second that.

SENATOR F. L. WALCOTT: Mr. President, I
rise to make a comment on the new terminal build-
ing. The Addendum to this Resolution states that the
ancillary works remain to be carried out before the
new wing can be fully commissioned. These an-
cillary works include new essential roadworks,
additional car parking facilities, the conversion of
the present Arrival Hall into the proposed new In-
transit and Departure lounges, and the retailing of
the present Main Concourse.

I would like to ask the Minister, from what I
have seen at the airport and I have been watching
this building going up for some time. The time factor
in putting up buildings in Barbados is a joke; Barba-
' s is only 166 square miles and we have compara-


tively small buildings to put up. Iwonderwhat would
happen if we were putting up large buildings. I want
to say to the Government that people generally are
unwilling to say these things because they do not
want to crush people's corns. The Government I
believe, is lacking in its supervision; they do not
have enough intelligent Supervisors, and if the Gov-
ernment goes on with this old-fashioned practice in
paying Supervisors a little more each time, theywill
never get anywhere fast. I have had the experience
of seeing Government buildings go up in away which
was very different from what the plans were, and they
had to go all over again andgo back to this House for
additional funds.

Airports are changing very frequently, and the
Government has to have advisers on these things. I am
not subscribing to the general criticism that people
cannot get through Barbados airport as quickly as
other airports, because there are many airports you
do not get through quite easily. There is no rush in
the American airports, you have to wait your turn.
What I would like to know from the Minister is if
the Government feels that they can spend the money
and allow this new car park just to be a car park.
The airport is no holiday resort, and you should
only go there if you have legitimate business there,
so that the Government should collect money from
people going there. We have had enough freeness, and
I think we should pay a parking fee for going to the
airport, because I am satisfied that this terminal
building is going to be too small. I understand from
some people that before the opening of this that it is
going to be too small and it is inadequate.

Take this conveyor belt. I find in many of these
places, people like this copycat business, you have to
know if it is necessary for you to have a conveyor
belt in the terminal building. Trinidad put in one and
they only used it for about 18 months or two years,
because the salesmen that belong to these organisa-
tions are business people, and I findthat that is what
we have to guard against. I would like to know if it is
really adequate.

I see they are putting a carriageway now; be-
cause the architects say so, you put up a building
unconnected to the other building and you cannot get
from one building to the other. Barbadians come to a
standstill in rain; this is not a community where peo-
ple are accustomed to moving in rain, they cannot go
out in the rain because they will catch cold, but at
the airport a plane is going to move in rain, and peo-
ple from the airlines come out with an umbrella and
things of that sort. I think the time has come when
the Barbados Government should undertake and
examine what amount of facilities they offer the many
people in getting from the airlines to the terminal
building; these facilities are still based on the days
when you were getting planes coming herewith 15 or
20 people aboard. Now you are going to get planes
with 200 and 300 people aboard and relying on these
airlines to say that they are going to find accommo-
dation for them. It is time that you take on more
general responsibility for the facilities that are being
given at the airport.










People are going to be very dissatisfied with
this foolish umbrella business; you are soakedbefore
you get into the terminal building. I think it is time
that the Government should examine this system with-
in the terminal building itself. I have gone into the
airport and I heard people complaining about the
Customs. I do not subscribe to this sort of looseness
that some people want to engender in society. No
member of the American society can go into the Cus-
toms Department in the United States of America and
begin to tell the Customs Officer what he must do.
Even the newspapers here have the effrontery to print
all this nonsense about people coming here and getting
delayed by the Customs. I see people here still go to
the airport andgo inside the Customs place and there-
fore the Customs becomes an open market; people
struggling for baggage.

You must have a Customs, and restrictions must
be enforced. It must be clearthat that is a restricted
area and you just cannot walk in as you wish; you may
want to grant people privileges there, but surely there
is a line.

I would like to see thatluggage is the responsi-
bility of the airlines. Baggage allover the world is a
problem, but I would say that it is the airlines busi-
ness to see that your baggage is placed in the Customs
hall promptly, and not long hours afterward. They
must get the equipment to get the things there. The
time is coming in Barbados when the Government
must have their restrictions, the authorities must
see how things are handled and keep the unauthorised
outside completely and let the business of the airlines
go on smoothly.

I know there is the temptation here even in the
tourist trade, they would like people to land here in
Barbados and jump over all the restrictions. Ido not
subscribe to that; I do not feel there is too much
delay, I think it is grossly unfair to say that. I have
been to the airport frequently and I have seen people
being processed, and I do not think anyone can say the
processing in Barbados is unduly long. In Jamaica
they look at every page in your passport and try to
make it hard for you, but here in Barbados I find that
the officers are extremely helpful and Iwould not lay
that charge against them.

What I would like to see rectified, I do not like
to see baggage, as is done at present, being dealt
with by red caps up there. Red caps have nothing to
do with your baggage, no unauthorised person has any
right to handle your bags, the red caps should wait
until the Customs have cleared you and then they
should seek this little privy they look forward to. I
hope in the new terminal building the Customs will
be a Customs in which people otherthanthe persons
going into there to take their luggage will not be per-
mitted to go.

Parking facilities. You will have to provide free
parking; it is always congested and I think that it is
going to be more so. I am not an airline expert, but
I am sorry to see from time to time the erection of
gasolene stations within striking distance of the air-


pport, you will soon find that what used to be a car
park will no longer be in use for that purpose. How-
ever, the experts have advised, and I hope they know
what they are doing.

Do not only put up terminal building in 1968 and
in 1970 people will be saying it is too small. I have
been told that the area you now have for a new ter-
minal building is going to be too small for all the
facilities because the next five or six years when
you get people coming in 500 or 600 at a time, that
Customs Hall will be inadequate; you are going to
get complaints because people must have the right to
be cleared as quickly as possible. We must have pro-
per facilities; you cannot keep people in the line if it
is raining, you must give them proper accommoda-
tion.

SENATOR Dr. R. B. CADDLE: Mr. President,
we are all agreed that we should do everything to
attract the tourists. At the same time one has to be
careful about criticisms being made against us. We
are living in a world today where many things hap-
pen, and most Barbadians seem to think that they can-
not happen here, but we have to realise that a large
number of people who come here as tourists are dope
addicts. I think it would be a very tragic thing if we
allow people to just come in as they like without re-
striction.

I think it is unfair to many of the people who work
in the Customs to criticise them without even going
into the method or into the circumstances under which
they work. The point is this, we do want the tourists,
but at the same time we have to make it known to them
that they have to fulfil certain obligations when they
come. I have travelled and I know when I go to
foreign airports what I have to do, and we have to
make this known to the tourists; it is high time we
make them realise that when we go to their country
we have to fulfil regulations laid down and it is only
fair that when they come here they return the same
compliment.

Another thing I would like to mention is you get
a large number of people without any purpose or rea-
son who just go and sit about at the airport and cause
a lot of congestion, and I think a stop should be put
to this. These are the two points Iwould like to make,
and I hope that the Minister would take some note of
these and take them to the higher authorities.

SENATOR H. F. ALKINS: Mr. President, the
two last speakers have covered some of the re-
marks I intended to cover. I thinkwe should be most
grateful to the Hon. Leader of the Senate for the very
full explanation he gave on this Resolution, but one
could not help getting the feeling that there must have
been inadequate-planning, because it seems that they
have discovered this and that as-they went along and
that is not good enough. Previous speakers have made
the statement that the building when completed in
spite of the length of time, is goingto be inadequate.
I would just like to ask if the Government's advisers
- I know that developments in air transport have taken
place so fast that people like ourselves with limited


- -- --------











. resources can hardly keep pace with the physical re-
quirements; I would presume that if we are building
airport physical facilities now we should be building
facilities thatwould be able to keep upwithwhatwe ex-
pect to take place certainly within the next ten years
or so, and of course we should be building on a long-
term basis. On this I would like to ask the Hon.
Leader of the Senate if the Government's advisers
are thinking of providing facilities in keeping with the
known expansion which is expected to take place
within the very near future.

SENATOR W. W. BLACKMAN: In supporting this
Resolution I must say that Senator Walcott made a
statement that the buildings take too long, but he put
the blame on the Supervisors. I do not think that the
Supervisors alone should take the blame, we should
put the blame exactly where it belongs. We had
buildings built for Government and people seem to
think that so long as they have voted for this Minister
or that Minister they can do as they like, and when
they are spoken to the first thing they say is'I will
see Mr. So-and-So for you'. If the Ministers would
disregard statements like these, they will see that
the work will proceed properly regardless of whom
the Supervisor might be.

Senator Caddie spoke about people who go to the
airport without purpose or reason, but I hope that the
day will never come when the Government passes
anything to prevent parents, friends and others con-
cerned from going to the airport to see relatives off.
I cannot see how in an airport which has been built
from public funds you can restrict the public from
going; if you are talking about a private place built
from private funds I could understand that, but for
the airport I cannot understand that. I know that in
spite of all the suggestions which have been made
that this present Government or any Government
which claims to be democratic can bring down a
Resolution to vote for that.

There is one more point. I hope that when the
Airport is finished there will be ample room in the
duty free sections. It might have been all right with
20 or 30 people leaving, but today when 100 are
leaving it is inadequate. I think that the Customs
section is also inadequate. I hope that when every-
thing is completed we will have an airport of which
Barbados can be proud.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH: Mr.
President I would like to erase the political sug-
gestion made by Senator Blackman. He has been
knocking around Civil Service circles long enough
to know that no Minister can go and discipline a Su-
pervisor in any way. If worker says that he is going
to see a Minister about someone else that's bare hot
air.


In any case, Sir, even if a Minister wanted to
interfere, there is the Public Service Commission
which deals with matters of the Civil Service. Sena-
tor Blackman is a retired schoolmaster. He knows
that no political influence can get into the way.


He knows, Sir, that there are other airports at
which people pay to park: but if this Government
brings down such a measure you will hear that you
are hurting the poor man. Yet you want increased
facilities at the airport.

Why do not the Senator and his colleagues show
more responsibility in public life? We can no longer
afford this political propaganda from day to day. This
is an independent country and you have to tell people
what the burdens are. I would like Senator Blackman
at the same time that he complains of inadequacy to
see that the Government is endeavouring to raise
finance which the small man can bear if he realises
his political responsibilities.

SENATOR D. A. WILES: Mr. President Senator
Caddie said thatwe are spending a lot of money on our
airport primarily put there for the use of passengers.
We are now charging passengers a fee of $2.00.
If these people pay for certainthings then it is within
the competence of the Government to allow them to
use those facilities.


When it comes to the inadequacy of the terminal
buildings, I think that it is very difficult for anyone
to know exactly what size to build. I do hope that with
our expansion, and the resultant spending of a lot of
money that the people who are paying for it will be
able to have the use of it.

SENATOR P. G. MORGAN: Mr. President -
There has been a good deal of discussion as to
whether the new facilities at Seawell will prove to
be adequate or not. I would say yes, it will, and at
the same time no it will not.

You cannot make rules and regulations to control
the rate of traffic that will flow through the airport
all during the year. When you get two or three
of these large planes coming in at one time facili-
ties will be inadequate. At the same time there are
times when there is not that pressure on the facili-
ties of the airport.

Even although you have flight schedules there
are factors like weather and equipment which will
delay one flight or bring another one inearlier. This
question of adequacy is relative.

I think that Barbados is lucky to have had over a
number of years people who have managedto plan the
airport facilities to what they are today. It has been
a tremendous boost to the Tourist Industry and the
facilities which we have today are quite good. It is
not difficult to criticise an operation such as that
where you have things over which you do not have
much control, such as aircraft arrivals all converg-
ing on one spot. I think that that is so with every
other airport in the world. It was said that Kennedy
Airport was in such a mess that the Kennedy family
was considering petitioning the Government to change
its name.

I do not think that any reasonable person visit-
ing someone else's country will complain about nor-










nal formalities of Customs orImmigration; but there
are some people who will complain to the Press be-
cause their baggage was opened. They are un-
reasonable, and unfortunately they are always the
ones who make a noise. Unfortunately it is always
the one who is disgruntled who gets publicity.

Again it is a matter of personal discretion on
the part of the officers who have a most difficult job
to do. It is often a matter of how a question is put
and the attitude of the officer. I know that in Barbados
it is not infrequent to hear an officer say "I hope
that you will have a nice stay."

What is of concern is that the pace of this whole
thing moves so fast. Five years ago we had no jets
and the idea of a plane coming inwith 198 passengers
was unheard of. That will become more common-
place in Barbados. In the next five years or so you
will have planes with 400 passengers on board, and
there is the question not only of the number of pas-
sengers, but of the speed.

What I mean is that there is no point in a man
flying from New York in one and a half hours and
take the same time to get from Seawellto St. James.
We must keep up with the planning of all the things
that will be thrown upon us if we are to keep our place
in the travel industry.

I feel that the Director of Civil Aviation and the
technical experts should be consulted about future
plans dealing with the handling of luggage, and the
transporting of passengers etc. I feel that far more
ahead planning is required with regard to the future
development of Seawell Airport.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
Notes have been made generally about the recom-
mendations that have been made and I do not propose
to reply except to say that I intend to refer all these
matters to the appropriate authorities because I my-
self feel that they are worthy of the greatest con-
sideration.

There are two matters, however, with which I
would like to deal. One was raised by Senator Walcott.
From the tenor of his speech one would have thought
that the general public had access to the Customs
Hall at Seawell Airport. Everyone knows the facts,
but for the sake of the record I will put it straight.
It is not so at all. In fact not only is the doorway
generally closed, but there is a sign over the door
saying that unauthorised persons are forbidden to
enter.

What is more, a policeman is generally placed
near the entrance to the hall for the specific purpose
of keeping out unauthorised persons; so that there is
some form of control. In fact there are Customs Of-
ficers with complete authority in that hall. They can
decide who should not be admitted and who should
be admitted. In addition passes are issued to limit
the number of persons who enter the Customs hall.
There is some form of control, although Whether it
is as effective as it should be is another matter.


Now, Sir, Senator Alkins wondered if there was
adequate planning. In fact he suggested that it was
not adequate. That is not completely correct; but in
order to keep pace with developments in otherparts
of the world we have to do certain things because of
tourism. Tourism is very important to us and stands
only second to the Sugar Industry and it is growing
all the time. You cannot say that the Sugar Industry
is growing all the time.

Again, there are a number of airlines not now
serving our routes that may want to come in.

I would like to remind the Senate that this pro-
ject was planned in 1965 and was announced during
that financial year. It was not pulled out of a hat. If
the whole structure is now inadequate and I am not
saying that it is at all we acted on the advice of
those officers who were at the time competent to give
it. I have been told by one of these persons himself
that the airport as it stands, including the new ex-
tension is capable of copingwith this increased flow
of traffic until 1980. If we have to increase we will
have to do it.

Those are the facts of development. This is a
small airport but it means a lot economically. As it
is now it brings in revenue of about $1 million a year
and if from time to time we are asked to vote certain
expenditure on it I do not think that the money should
be provided grudgingly.

I have no doubt that members of the Senate will
vote for it because they all see the necessity of in-
creasing the airport facilities. I can say nothing
more except to commend the Resolution to Senators.

The question that the Resolution be concurred in
was put to the Senateand agreed to.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE (CURRENT) No.41

The President called the fourth Order A Reso-
lution to place the sum of $15,000 at the disposal of
the Government to supplementthe Estimates 1967-68
Part I (Current) as shown in the Supplementary
Estimates, 1967-68, No. 41,whichforms the Schedule
to the Resolution.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
Mr. President The Addendum to the Resolution
shows that the funds provided to meet the expenses
of Conferences and Delegations are insufficient to
cover all the expenditure forthe financial year. The
sum of $75,000 was voted, and at the end of December,
1967, over $70,000 was spent. It is not expected that
on the basis of expenditure in the past the balance
will be sufficient to meet expenditure for the re-
mainder of the financial year. In fact if we look at
it from the known commitments of the vote it will
be inadequate.

It is anticipated that this supplementary sum of
$15,000 would be adequate to carry on for the rest
of the financial year, and I move that the Aesolution
be concurred in.


_ __ __










Senator the Honourable F. G. Smith seconded the.
motion.

The question was put to the Senate and agreed to.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE (CURRENT) No.42

The President called the fifth Order A Reso-
lution to place the sum of $375, 876 at the disposal
of the Government to supplement the Estimates 1967-
68 Part I Current as shown in the Supplementary
Estimates 1967-68, No. 42 which form the Schedule
to the Resolution.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
Mr. President There are no fewer than 17 items
under Head 46, Queen Elizabeth Hospital, for which
supplementary provision is required. I do not propose
to go into each of these items. The notes are gen-
erally full and in several respects veryexplanatory.

Sir, with regard to Item 16, Substitutes and Tem-
porary Staff, at the last of November, 1967, the
amount that was spent under this vote was $138,712
leaving a balance of $1,288. This vote provides for
vacancies caused by vacation and sick leave, and
there has been a big increase in temporary staff re-
sulting in an increase in the number of substitutes.

Sir, the original estimate was for temporary
staff of 18 including two assistant Anaesthetists and
members of subordinate staff. The amount was
$48,000 and then there was provision of $13,420 for
unestablished staff and $78,580 for substitutes.

That was the estimate, but let us look at what
really happened. Temporary staff instead of being
18 amounted to 36. Unestablished staff amounted to
$16,000 instead of $13,420 and substitutes to $127,500
making a total of $225,000. The deficit is $85,000
which is the amount now required under this vote.

As is explained in the note, the decisionto grant
employees who have given service for more than five
years three weeks vacation leave instead of two as
formerly has also been responsible for boosting the
expenditure.

To turn to Item 34, Services rendered by Spe-
cialist Officers, more fees have been collected than
were expected and accordingly the amounts to be paid
to consultants has correspondingly increased. Ex-
penditure from this vote is at the rate of 75 per cent
of fees collected.

If we turn to the Item 102, you will see that the
amount that has been voted is $690,000. Expenditure
up until the 18th November, 1967 was $507,908 leav-
ing a balance of $182,092. This balance is insufficient
to provide for this item until the end of the financial
year, and an increase has become necessary. The
increase is due to the increase in the hospital popula-
tion and a corresponding increase in the volume of
supplies. Furthermore, there ^ks been an increase
in the price of basic storesqhat have been provided.
Sir, the amount required under this item is $85,000.


Now we come to the very large increased pro-
vision, Item 103, Drugs and Dressings. If we were to
compare the expenditure during this financial year, or
the expenditure during the last financial year with
what has been provided forinthis financialyear, you
will see that an increase will certainly have to be
given. The average monthly expenditure from last
financial year was $47,333 and ifyouwere to use this
as a basis, you will discover thatinsteadof $525,000
that has been provided, in fact the provision should
have been $568,000 during this financial year; this
would have been a more realistic provision.

There has been a steady increase in hospital
services, and it is estimated that there has been a
15% increase in the use of these services. On this
basis it is estimated that a further $128,000 is re-
quired to supplement this Item.

Under Item 117, Maintenance of Buildings and
Plant, there has been a number of unforeseen charges
on this vote. These unforeseen charges include the
sum of $1,685 spent on nurses quarters and class-
rooms for Ward Assistants and Pupil Midwives.
There is a further expenditure of $1,075 on the Ma-
ternity Department, nurses changing room and a
laboratory.

These are some of the charges on this vote that
were not estimated for during the financial year.
There is yet another major repair job stillto be un-
dertaken, and that is a replacement of the water con-
densing cells in the air conditioning unit of the
operating theatre and other departments, and it has
been discovered that no satisfactory repairs can be
effected to this item. The amount required to supple-
ment this Item is $18,201.

I do not propose, as I said earlier on, to go into
many other items, but if honourable members require
some further explanation or comment I will be quite
happy to do so. I now move that the Resolution for
$375,876 be approved.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH: I
beg to second that.

SENATOR Dr. R. B. CADDLE: I would like to
make a few comments on this Resolution. As the Hon.
Attorney General has many times pointed out, the time
has come when the people of Barbados have to shoul-
der their responsibility and cannot go along all the
time taking advantage of the Government. We have
just had the devaluation of the pound with its many
consequences.


Some of the acknowledged international experts
on hospital administration have stressed that a new
hospital within its first five years of administration,
the cost averages one sixthof the capitalexpenditure.
Now there has been a lot of talk of what the hospital in
reality has cost us, but even taking some of the
figures which have been put up, and we take one-
sixth of that, we find that what we are spending on
the hospital is far in excess of whatthe experts say.











We have to make allowances, and sometimes a.
hospital costs about $15,000 a day to run. I do not
want to touch on the problem of House Officers, be-
cause lastyearin the Senate I aired my views on this,
but I want to point out again that pre-registration
interns are the responsibility of the University or the
College at which they are being trained. A hospital is
distinct from a college hospital or university hospi-
tal. You find that the Administrator of the hospital
is only concerned with the posts of Registration Of-
ficers and it is interesting to note that in most coun-
tries a medical student has to complete one year of
internship before he can go forward.

Now we find that a very large amount of money
is being asked for again for drugs and dressings. It
is my knowledge that during the last year less pa-
tients have been treated at the Queen Elizabeth
Hospital than in the preceding year, andevenmaking
allowances for what the Hon. Minister has stated, the
increase in drugs and so on, I still find that this is a
fairly high figure and I would like to know some of
the reasons why this has to be so. You find that in a
hospital where there is no adopted policy among the
people of the hospital or hospital mechanism as to
how to administer the hospital, you find very often
even the most junior personwants to boss, and what
you will find here is everybody owns the place.

Take an example like tea. There are many brands
of tea on the market, but we all know that I would
just draw that to sharpen the minds of the hon. mem-
bers of the Senate yougetmanybrands of the same
drug on the market; some are cheap and some are
expensive. Drugs coming from Canada and the United
States are far more costlythanthe same drug coming
from England, and youwillfind that where a system
of ordering drugs is not laid down, there will always
be confusion because each person ordering the drugs
is going to order them from their friend or from
somebody who knows somebody else and so on.

Now Stationery. I would like to know if you mean
the normal prescription pads or if by stationery we
mean writing paper and notepaper and that type of
thing, because if you do mean ordinary notepaper
we have to ask whyit has become so necessary in the
hospital. Are the people there using the stationery
provided?

Another thing is the rental of quarters. This
again when I was in the hospital struck me that the
Government had to rent quarters forme, and when I
enquired into the price the Government was paying I
was astonished because the price was unjustified. The
facilities which were being offered to me and the
price which the Government was being asked to pay
was unfair to the people of Barbados. I feel that the
time has come, if the Government has to rent quar-
ters for doctors, etc, I think they have to pay more
attention to how these arrangements areworkedout.
People are going to askexorbitantprices for rooms
and very often get them, because the feeling in Bar-
bados is that it is Government's money and you can
get some of it. This is afeelingwe have to eradicate
to see that people do not always hold the Government


up to ransom. I think it is wise that we should find
out if the services which have been provided justify
the rental which the people are asking for.

Anotherfactor is travelling, and I also observe
that the hospital ambulances are out everywhere. One
would like to know what is the policy of the Govern-
ment for the use of the ambulances; you just cannot
have ambulances running all overthe place just like
that. I do agree that a person who is incapacitated
and needs special handling, it is worthwhile to send
him in an ambulance with an orderly or a trained
nurse to see that the journey does not cause any.
more damage to the man on his way home, but this
again you must be very careful about. You have to
draw the line somewhere; are you running an am-
bulance service or a bus service? If so, why com-
pete with the Transport Board?

Another thing which you find in the hospitalwhich
is interesting is this. We are faced with a group of
people whose conception of nationalism is very poor,
and what you are finding year after year is that you
are being asked for more and more money and the
reasons which you are going to bring to justify this
increased expenditure when analysed would fall and
come apart, and I feel that the time has come when
a definite policy has to be laid down concerning the
Queen Elizabeth Hospital and all the health services
otherwise year after year you will find thatyou will
be spending more and more money which would be
able to build two or three hospitals again.

I do not think it is fair to the taxpayers, when we
realise how people just sit and think of cheating the
Government. I am not opposing the Resolution for one
moment, but I am just pointing out these things be-
cause I have had the experience,.andI think that the
Government takes advice from people with the best
feeling without realising that the people have some-
thing in mind. I do not think that this is a good thing
and I do not intend to decry the Government for any-
thing they have done, but I am just drawing this to the
attention of the Honourable Minister that it is high
time we devise a good policy regarding our health
services, and I feel strongly about this, that in de-
vising this policy one of the things is to bring in a
medical act which is going to lay down discipline.

I am not speaking as physician, I am speaking
as a citizen of Barbados and I have been very much
disturbed, after having worked abroad, and seeing
certain things which are going on in this country and
I realise it is urgent that the Government devise a
policy relating to the health services. Bring in a
medical act laying down theories and discipline for
all practising physicians in this island. Until they
have done that they willbe facedwith'problems which
may not be obvious to them, butwhich obviously come
from the simple fact that they have been ill-advised.

I do not think at this stage we realise patterns
are changing. We cannot affordtogo onwith this type
of laissez-faire attitude which has been going on for
some time; many of the colonial attitudes die hard,
and I think that it is not beyond the Government which










is running the country at the moment to bring in a,
type of administration, a type of welfare and at-
mosphere in the country that people should appre-
ciate, and I hope that the Honourable Minister would
take note of some of the things I have mentioned.
When we are spending money we have to ensure that
we are getting the maximum benefit for the money
we spend. If the more developed countries are
equipped to ensure this, Barbados has to go all out
too to achieve this, otherwise we are not going to get
proper development.

SSENATOR H. F. ALKINS: Mr. President, I am
not qualified to speak on the administration of the
hospital, but as an ordinary citizen I am very wor-
ried over the growing cost in administering the hos-
pital, particularly when we hearthe maintenance cost
and the necessity to reinstate an air conditioning
system that has only been in existence for three
years. I really rose to ask the Minister to tell me
what has happened in connection with the proposal
which was passed on to us some time ago that a Hos-
pital Board was to be appointed to administer the
hospital. It has been running for some three years
now, and as far as I know no Board has been ap-
pointed. Maybe I can be told whether the policy has
changed or whether it is still proposed to appoint a
Board.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH:
Mr. President, there are just one or two things I
would like to say. The Government has provided
this country with services that the Prime Minister
of Great Britain has just curtailed; this has never
been appreciated by the people in Barbados, even al-
though some who can afford to pay get a free health
service. The Government is equally worried about the
cost of the institution, but there is nothingwe can do
about it. We hire doctors, we hire specialists and the
cost just seems to go up and up. I am glad to see that
a member of the medical profession has taken the
opportunity to indict his colleagues of not being aware
of their responsibilities in this young nation, andfor
adopting an attitude that once it is Government, Gov-
ernment can pay.

I have known of instances where doctors have
given three months supplies of drugs to patients and
when the patient goes back in 10 days time they
change the drug and give them anotherone, and in the
interest of science, medicine, the patients, and not
without regard of the economy of the country, Gov-
ernment is forced to try and find the money, because
we are dealing with a group of professional men who
in their own right can say whenyou are dead you are
dead, and if youwill look at the items which are here,
you will see that this increase is almost unavoidable.

The people in this country make the fullest use
of the services at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital. You
will see that they leave the district hospitals and come
right down here to the Queen Elizabeth Hospital even
if they have to wait very long. The status of the hos-
pital has gone up, it is now teaching hospital of the
University of the West Indies, and you will see that
- the number of students going there you have a senior


lecturer in medicine, the standard of medicine is
going to cost you more. These are unavoidable costs
which we have got to meet. We have now become a
member of the Pan American Health Organisation
and I can assure Senator Caddie that we are asking
them to seek into this question of drugs and dressings
and come out with some method that can cut down the
cost of drugs.

You cannot go on in this country just shelving
difficult things for political advantage, it gets you
nowhere. Independence is a thing which alotof Bar-
badians have not begun to appreciate. Ihave no doubt
that the Honourable Senate will appreciate the note of
this supplementary.

On the question of the quarters for doctors, I do
not think that the Government caneverdo anything to
please the doctors because some doctors want a
house as big as Government House.

You are in a position where when a specialist is
needed and there is one you can get he can demand
his price. You can get blackmail operating, and there
is nothing that the Government can do if the post has
to be filled.

When it comes to Nursing, there is a general
shortage of nurses. We have to keep them happy and
it increases our expenditure from time to time.

You can appreciate the Government's position,
Sir, and I want to assure Senators that we are doing
our best to keep the cost to the minimum that is con-
sistent with the good health of Barbados.

SENATOR C. ASQUITH PHILLIPS: Mr. Presi-
dent, I have listenedwith interest to the timely speech
of Senator Caddie and also to the speech of the
Learned Attorney General. What we must be aware of
and what we must continue to be aware of is that what
is being indicted this evening by Senator Caddie is not
so much the doctors, the members of his profession,
but the system and the operation of the system, and
it is the operation of the system of administration in
so many fields in this island that cause alarm to those
of us who are exposed to them.

It may be true that some doctors feel that they
occupy a privileged position and do some hard bar-
bargaining with the Government and it may be that
the Government has to give terms that are not in the
country's best interests; but I do not think that this
is the main gravamen of his criticism.

As I understand it, he is saying that it is im-
portant for all members of the Senate to understand
that every year the Government will be forced to come
to the Legislature and ask for more and more money;
and this is obviously unsatisfactory.
Senator Caddie gave an illustration about drugs
and dressings, and it is of very little consolation to
hear that the Government is looking into the question.
This is a system, and unless an effort is made to
grapple with it thoroughly we will be in this situa-
tion every year.


I_










I can understand, Mr. President, the frustration
of the Government and perhaps the feeling of des-
pondency which to some extent came through in the
course of the remarks of the Learned Attorney Gen-
eral; but it is clear that the attitude of laissez-faire
has got to end, and that itisthe responsibility of the
Government and of all of us regardless of party -
every citizen of this country. But as long as the
Government is in power it is its first responsibility
to see that these things are run efficiently.

It is true that the members of the Government
are not medical practitioners, and even iftheywere,
as Ministers they would not be called upon to per-
form operations; but they have to see that the system
is such that the policy of the Government is carried
out and implemented in the most efficient manner,
and with the greatest economy by all concerned. That
is the primary duty of the Government.

I cannot feel happy or satisfied about this at-
titude of "what are we to do". Either we administer
things or they will administer us, and we will go into
bankruptcy.

It is no use just appealing to the better instincts
of people. I belong to the Legal Profession. We are
supposed to have our standards of ethics. Yet we
have seen the necessity for disciplining ourselves
and only the matter of a month or a few weeks ago
the Bar Association submitted to the Government a
scheme whereby members of the Legal Profession
would be subjected to discipline by law. As I have
said, we have our ethics, but we have found that the
time has come when it should be clearly set out the
matters on which a memberofthe Legal Profession
can be disciplined.

When he says that the first question is the dis-
cipline and ethics of the profession, the situation is
not such in which the Government can sit down and
let things take their merry way. I think that an im-
portant principle is still at stake.

What strengthens my point is that the Govern-
ment with the best intentions in the world such as
this one can be so easily often frustrated by ad-
ministrative systems over which it has no control
and attitudes which it has inherited, so that finally
not only this Government but any Government that has
to run this countrywill find that it is a problem which
has to be faced sooner or later. I think that you must
remember that if policies are to be implemented, the
machinery must be such that it functions smoothly,
and the Government has to see that it so functions.

SENATOR F. L. WALCOTT: Mr. President, I
can say truthfully that as long as Barbadians suffer
from this conceit you will be always facedwith these
problems. Only a conceited community would have
built a hospital that size. Until we drop this conceit
of being forced to build structures beyond our ca-
pacity we will be always in trouble. You are planning
for a stadium. You are trying to say that dying is
going out of fashion and that as soon as you go to that
hospital no one will die. Politicians force these things


pn each other. You must have hospital, and if a man
has a heart attack you must bring.down specialists
when you cannot afford it.

I agree in general with what has been said; but
efficiency and cost are two different things. Lack of
efficiency is cost in itself because you are not getting
results. We like these grandiose schemes. It looks as
if you will get a first prize if you build the biggest
hospital in the West Indies. Youwant to compete with
Harley Street and with the John Hopkins Hospital. I
can go to the hospital in Barbados and be attended
free in a general ward. I had some experience of the
Hospital Board in the old days. It was interesting to
deal with doctors at times. They are not immune
from the bad habits of other people.

There is a habit about talking about lazy can-
toniers; but there are other lazy people in the com-
munity who work for $8000 and $10,000 a year; but
people do not question them.

I have said that with any hospital as big,as that
there should be a Board to operate it. Some govern-
ments do not like Boards. These doctors go around
complaining that you put people on Boards to tell them
what to do.

I support the general view, andI say that if we
Barbadians are born in a society where this conceit
existsitis the price that we have to pay for being
Barbadians.

SENATOR P. G. MORGAN: Mr. President I
hope that the Government will bear in mindwhat has
been said today and that prevention is often much
cheaper than cure.

SENATOR W. W. BLACKMAN: The question of
Boards has been raised. For many years I found
myself dealing with these things. The Old Hospital
was run by a Board. Senator Phillips said that it is
the system which is to blame. I hope that the Gov-
ernment will in time see that the whole thing is so
systematised that no criticism of any sort will be
made against the officers concerned.

There is one item, No. 16, Substitutes and Tem-
porary Staff, that I am mostly concerned about. You
will be surprised to know, Sir, that at the Queen
Elizabeth Hospital that there are Orderlies and do-
mestic staff who have come from the old General
Hospital as temporary staff, and they are still tem-
porary staff. I am in a position to tell you that that.
section of the staff is grossly dissatisfied and frus-
trated.

I fail to see any private industry in this country
which could maintain temporary staff numbering be-
tween 300 and 500 people forfourtofive years:with-
out permanent security. I can tell you that the Civil
Service has no control.

Senator Alkins asked about a Board. I have a
slight suspicion that these people have not been ap-
pointed because the Government has not decided


1










whether they will have aBoardornot. These people
are suffering from the indecisionofthe Government,
and I hope that something will be done to relieve
their state of mind.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
I do not know whether non-government members can
speak on what the Government intends to do, such as
Senator Blackman who seemed to be supplying an an-
swer to the question raised by Senator Alkins.

SENATOR W. W. BLACKMAN: I said I have a
slight suspicion.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
I would not pursue that any further. The Government,
as Senator Smith has said, is very deeply concerned
over the cost of administering the Queen Elizabeth
Hospital. I can say that the Government is aware that a
change is necessary.

The Government was aware that some change was
necessary a couple of years ago, and in fact that is the
reason that the Government has made known its in-
tentions to set up a Boardto administerthe Hospital.

But, Sir, there are difficulties. I would not say
that the problems are insurmountable, but there are
constitutional difficulties. The Government has not
departed from its policy but one of the problems is
that in order to implement this decision the Gov-
ernment might find itself having to compensate about
one thousand persons employed at the Queen Eliza-
beth Hospital.

These are some of the problems wewillhave to
work out without losing sight of our basic goal and
that is to change the administration of the hospital
to suit the present needs. Itis stillgoing to be costly,
but the point is we should want to operate on a very
efficient system. Nothing more, Sir.

The question that the Resoluton be concurred
in was put to the Senate and agreed to.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
Mr. President, honourable members have been sitting
for avery long time. There are stillthree items to be
dealt with and I move Sir, that the Chamber be now
adjourned for 15 minutes.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH: I
beg to second that.

The question was put to the Senate and agreed to.

On Resumption

BILL TO AMEND INCOME TAX ACT 1921

His Honour the President called the SixthOrder.
A Bill to amend the Income Tax Act. 1921.

SENATOR'THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH: Mr.
President, the Objects and Reasons of this Bill set out
very clearly what this Bill is intendedto do, and I am
sure Honourable Senators have had anopportunity of


reading the history of the amendments proposed. I
will just read the Objects and Reasons again for their
benefit.

"This Bill would amend the Income Tax Act, 1921
in the following respects -

(a) to make provision for the taxation of unit
trusts;

(b) to remove the initial allowance now
granted to basic industries and in place thereof to
increase from 10% to 20% the investment allowance
provided for by section 12 B (2);

(c) to provide that annual payments made by
virtue or in consequence of a settlement wouldbe al-
lowed as a deduction under section 18 (2) only in the
case of -

(i) payments to charities for a periodof
not less than three years subject to alimit of
10% of taxable income;
(ii) payments under a settlement ex-
pressed to be for a period of sevenyears or
for the life of the beneficiary, whichever
period is the longer; and
(iii) payments under a seven year cove-
nant if such covenant was entered into be-
fore 29th September, 1966;

(d) to allow expenditure on spectacles, dental
treatment and dentures to be included in claims for
medical expenses to be deducted from personal in-
come; and

(e) to allow deductions by self-employed per-
sons in respect of premiums paidunder annuity con-
tracts approved by the Commissioner of Inland
Revenue up to an amount not exceeding one thousand
dollars or 7 1/2% of earnings."

I am very happy to announce that we have had
over the year a gentleman from Canada who was
loaned to us on the Canadian Technical Aid Scheme.
He is an expert on income tax. He is leaving at the
end of the month and he has been instrumental in help-
ing us to draft this comprehensive income tax law.
Since he is leaving in so short a while the Govern-
ment of Barbados would like to go on record as ex-
pressing thanks to the Canadian Government and to
him for the help and assistance he has given us here
in Barbados. This is a comprehensive piece of legis-
lation for all businessmen to see we have found a
way in which this law can be put in one document in-
stead of in several.

Mr. President, this Bill endeavours to bring up
to date the promise made by the Ministerof Finance
in his budget speech of 1966 and the consequent
necessary amendment to carry out that promise. I
move, therefore, Mr. President, that this Bill be read
a second time.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
I beg to second that.


1










SENATOR D. A. WILES: Mr. President, I think
we will all welcome this amending Bill. The Hon-
ourable Attorney General has told us that there is
the possibility of a full comprehensive Act being laid
before parliament some time in 1968. I am wondering,
Sir, if our Canadian adviser's attention may have been
drawn to the present system in Puerto Rico whereby
there is a percentage given on allmedicalexpenses;
it is a reducing percentage, of course, but this sys-
tem has been reported to be very helpful to the citi-
zens of Puerto Rico and very illuminating to the
Government itself.

One of the changes that will be brought in might
be the question of separate assessments on the
earned income of husbands andwives. The Honourable
Prime Minister in his remarks in his budget speech
said that present financial circumstances had not
justified the separate assessment of working wives.
I take it, Sir, that what the Honourable Prime Minis-
ter meant to say was that we could not afford it and I
wonder if he thought that we cannot afford not to. I do
hope that in the interim between now and the bringing
down of the draft this question will continue to be
examined and re-examined so that those people who
have to earn their living will not be taxed in a differ-
ent way to other people who are wage earners as well.

I am thinking here of the highly trained person-
nel; people like nurses in our hospitals, teachers in
our schools. I think we will agree that a highly
trained nurse with 10 years' experience is rather
difficult to come by, and when our present system
imposes a burden she does not continue to work in our
hospitals, but returns home to the washing machine
and the kitchen sink, and a domestic who is in dire
need of employment has to be sent away. I think our
community is losing a great deal of its skills; we
are spending a lot of money on Education and this
year we find ourselves with three Barbados scholars
who are girls. It will costthe taxpayer and the Gov-
ernment at least about $30,000 if not more to train
these three girls in their university, and probably
they have been encouraged to return to Barbados and
serve this nation, but they will not look forward to
this if they are faced with this burden of income tax
after marriage.

This decision might have been all very well in
1921, but we are dealing nowwith47 years later when
the whole economic structure of the island has
changed. We are an independent nation, and it seems
to me that to deprive the community of these skills is
a very dangerous thing to do. I think that this is
worthy of the most careful examination; I think it will
be difficult on moral grounds to justify our present
system. The strength of the community rests with the
family, and surely in our community as we would
like to see it the cornerstone or the foundation of the
family is christian marriage, and our present system
does not encourage marriage among our young people.
This means agirlworkingfor$200or$300 and a chap
working for $500 could start to build a home, and I
think it could be recognized that when they build a
home theycannottake the house with them. Fre-
quently one hears "we cannot marry because as


soon as we marry I am afraid the income tax will
make it impracticable for the girls to continue work-
ing." These are only a few of the remarks you hear;
I am sure there are others.

It might be said that this is something which is
done in Britain. I believe it is. I think I am right that
in Canada and in the United States of America hus-
bands and wives may make separate assessments of
their earned income. I think it is true to say that
economically at least Canada and the United States
of America have done quite well in 200 years, and they
are making full use of all their ability and skills, and
training is in some way responsible for this progress.
We need these skills. I cannot help feeling that on
economic reasons alone that the Government I know
is intelligent enough to re-examine our tax structure
and give the working wives a break.

SENATOR H. ODESSA GITTENS: Mr. President,
I wonder whether the last speakerknows allthe facts
about working wives and husbands and income tax. I
am neither a working wife nor do I have a husband,
and I have got the same responsibility as a wife who
is working and my tax is higher because I am not
married. I was not married because Iwas not allowed
to. I have had the moral courage to serve my country
and I have had the benefit of a proper christian home
and family life. I have maintained all that and I am
still under the pressure of income tax as a single
woman, so I think the married women have every-
thing, they cannot have the income tax too.

SENATOR Dr. R. B. CADDLE: Mr. President,
I was very glad to hear that the Government is plan-
ning a new comprehensive Income Tax Act. Many
people find it difficult after "marriage to continue
working. The fact that the incomes of the husbands
and wives are added together works out that the wife
prefers to stay at home. Many of these young ladies
are trained nurses and I am wondering if there could
be some other way whereby this burden could be
lifted; one can submit separate returns in the United
States, I do not know if it is a better method because
people in the United States seem to prefer it.



We are a new independent country. We expect
every man to pull his weight; we do not expect some
to pay and some not to pay. It seems to me that you
are making a mistake by submitting income tax re-
turns because some people do not and nobody seems
to bother about it, but those who submit theirs are
always called upon to pay more income tax. I feel
that all the working people should be registered and
the registration should be renewed each year. The
Department of Inland Revenue should be the De-
partment responsible for this registration, and if you
want to register again you should bring proof that you
submitted a return. Some people may not like it.
Today you find that many people who work are not
making any contribution towards the economy of this
country but they are enjoying the benefits which are
provided by the other people who have to pay, and I
hope that some consideration will be given to it.











SENATOR W. W. BLACKMAN: Mr. President, I
quite agree with Senator Wiles in the case of married
women. Naturally they have to get a servant to leave
in their homes to carry out the duties of the day and
I think that the least Government could do is to allow
them the allowance of paying a servant, and she has
to get a competent servant. I cannot understand it, a
poor man is renting a house, he finds it very very
hard. He borrows money to erect a house and when
that house is erected, he finds himself paying income
tax on the same house. The rental value is included in
his income tax, that is one of the things I cannot un-
derstand.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH: Mr.
President, I am in a very unfortunate position; my
wife is a medical practitioner. Ithinkwe are all pay-
ing very high taxation, and on the other hand there
are a lot of people who just evade paying income tax
from year to year. We got the gentleman from Canada
who is trying to tighten up on tax evasion and we do
hope in the new Bill to impose a stiffer penalty on
those who evade taxation. The Government is cer-
tainly willing to make concessions; ifyougive every-
body income tax concessions we have got to face the
economy of the country and we cannot take these
measures as we like, we have got to be very drastic.

The question that the Bill be read a second time
was put to the Senate and agreed to.

On the motion of Senator the Honourable F. G.
Smith seconded by Senator the Honourable P. M.
Greaves, the Senate went into Committee onthe Bill,
Senator C. Asquith Phillips in the Chair.

Clauses 1 to 9 of the Billwere called and passed
without debate.

Clause 10 was called.

SENATOR H. F. ALKINS: Mr. Chairman I see
that the title of the Act is the Income Tax Amendment
Act, 1967. Should not be 19687

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH:
The reason. is that the Bill was read a first time in
the Other Place on the 17th November, 1967.

The question that Clause 10 stand part of this
Bill was put and agreed to.

On the' motion of Senator the Honourable F. G.
Smith, seconded by Senator H. Odessa Gittens, it
was agreed the's the Schedule stand part of the Bill.

The question that the passing of the Bill be
reported to the Senate' as put and agreed.

SHis Honour the President resumedthe Chairand
the passing of the Bill was reported accordingly.

On the motion of Senator the Honourable F. G.
Smith seconded by Senator the Honourable P. M.
Greaves, the Bill was read a third time and passed.


THE SPECIAL LOANS ACT, 1968
The President called the Seventh Order A Bill
to authorise the Government of Barbados from time
to time to borrow sums of money limited in the aggre-
gate to 20 million dollars from any bank, corporation,
or other institution for purposes to be approved by
Parliament.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH:Mr.
President The Objects and Reasons of this Bill ex-
plain that it seeks to authorise the Government to
raise from time to time special loans, limitedin th6
aggregate to $20 million, from any bank, corporation,
company or other institution, to provide forthe ap-
propriation and application of such loans and to
charge such loans on the general revenues and assets
of Barbados.


This is the first time that the Government is
seeking to enact Legislation of this nature. In the
past the Government guaranteed loans raised by
Statutory Boards. As you know, Mr. President, there
are quite a few Statutory Boards which have been op-
erating on a shoe-string basis, and which in many
instances are financially unsound, and they have to con -
tinue to borrow.


The Government thinks that it is time for a piece
of legislation like this which is not unique. The Gov-
ernment has decided that where the need for borrow-
ing money for specific purposes arises it should have
this general power to borrow this money without
having to come to Parliament from time to time.


It is interesting to note that Section 3 says that
any money borrowed under the authority of this Act
shall be appropriated and applied to such purposes as
Parliament may approve by resolution and such
money and interest payable thereon is hereby charged
upon the general revenues and assets of Barbados. It
means that if the Government wants to lend this
money to this or that Board or Corporation the
Legislature will have the opportunity to make com-
ments on the administration or mal-administration
of the particular Board or Corporation.


Housing is one sphere in which the Government
would like to embark in the near future but for which
the Government would have to embark onlarge scale
borrowing. It is better that Legislation be enacted
to give us this authority in case we can get a loan at
the right time and under the right conditions.

I beg to move that the Billbe read a second time.

Senator the Honourable P. M. Greaves seconded
the motion.

SENATOR H. F. ALKINS: Mr. President, Just
one question. Does this mean that the Gove rnment will
make arrangements for a loan and only draw on this
loan when required?











SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH:
The Government will make arrangements for the
necessary loans depending on the demands atthe time
and draw on it.

SENATOR H. F. ALKINS: It is not as easy as it
sounds to make arrangements to draw on a loan as
you wish.

The question that the Resolution be read a second
time was put and agreed to.

On the motion of Senator the Honourable F. G..
Smith seconded by Senator the Honourable P. M.
Greaves the Senate went into Committee on the Bill,

Clause 1 was called and agreed to without de-
bate.

Clause 2 was called.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F.G.SMITH: Mr.
Chairman All that this Bill allows the Government
to do is to borrow money from time to time limited
to $20 million. If youwant to give the Marketing Cor-
poration $2 million you make arrangements with the
Banking Institution and you pass the money over. If
you want another $6 million you do the same. The
lmit to your power is $20 million. For anything over
that you will have to get the approval of the Legis-
lature.

Clause 2 was agreed to.
Clauses 3 and 4 were called and agreedto with-
out debate.

On the motion of Senator the Honourable F. G.
Smith seconded by Senator F. C. H. Carew it was
agreed that the Schedule stand part.

The question that the passing of the Bill be re-
ported to the Senate was put and agreed to.

His Honour the President resumedthe Chair and
the passing of the Bill in Committee was reported
accordingly.

On the motion of Senator the Honourable F. G.
Smith seconded by Senator the Honourable L. E.
Sandiford the Bill was read a third time and passed.

BILL TO AMEND THE PETROLEUM ACT,1950

The President called the eighth Order A Bill
to amend the Petroleum Act, 1950.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH: Mr.
President The Objects and Reasons of this Bill ex-
plain that there was a mistake in the naming of the
1950 Act, and an attempts being made here to cor-
rect it. This is because there is already in force the
Petroleum Act, 1882 (1882-2).

However, Sir, the main purpose of the Act re-
sults from the fact that there is prospectingforoil
in this islandwithvarying success andwhich the com-


pany which is now in the island would like a licence
to prospect in the territorial waters of Barbados.
My information is that there is no provision in the
Act which will give this power and. I advised that the
Act should be amended.

As Senators will know, territorial waters in
International Law vary. It is the intention to grant a
licence for prospecting in submarine areas the limi
of which is now thirteen miles. There is a conference
coming up on the question of territorial waters.

I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time

Senator F. C. H. Carew seconded the motion.

SENATOR H. F. ALKINS: Mr. President The
Honourable Attorney General partially answered a
question which I have been asked as to what is the
legal definition of territorial waters. It seems to
differ a great deal. Surely there must Ibe some legal
definition at the moment.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F. G. SMITH:
There is no legal definition. It used to be extended
to three miles and then it begantovary according to
fishing routes etc. As Isaid justnow, there is to be a
conference of legal advisors to come to some proper
definition of what the term means.

The question that the Bill be read a second time
was put and agreed to.

On the motion of Senator the Honourable F. G.
Smith seconded by Senator F. C. H. Carew the Senate
went into Committee on the Bill, Senator C. Asquith
Phillips in the Chair.

The Clauses of the Billwere called and agreed to
without debate.
The question that the passing of the Bill be re-
ported to the Senate was put and agreed to.

His Honour the President resumed the Chair and
the passing of the Bill in Committee was reported
accordingly.

On the motion of Senator the Honourable F. G.
Smith seconded by Senator F. C. H. Carew the Bill
was read a third time and passed.

APPOINTMENT OF A COMMITTEE TO
CONSIDER THE NEED FOR THE EMPLOYMENT
OF OFFICERS OF THE SENATE AND TO
EXAMINE THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF
EMPLOYMENT OF SUCH OFFICERS.

SENATOR C. ASQUITH PHILLIPS: Mr. Presi-
dent, Before the adjournment is taken Iwishto move
a Resolution with your permission. This Resolution
deals with the administration of this Chamber, and
it reads as follows:-

Be it resolved that a Committee be setup to con-
sider the need for the employment of officers of the


~












Senate and to advise on the terms and conditions of
employment of such officers as maybe considered
necessary."'

If this Resolution commends itself to senators,
I propose that the following members comprise the
Committee:-

The Attorney Genaral, Senator F.G.Smith; Sena-
tor R. G. Mapp; Senator W.W.Blackman'and,with i
some diffidence, myself.

I think that the purpose of the Resolution is
obvious. This Chamberhas not got any officers of its
own. The Clerk is a Civil Servant, and I think is
answerable solely to the Public Service Comm.'ssion.
For the smooth functioning ofourworkhere and car-
rying out of our duties it does seem to me that we should
have a Clerk of our own.

Following the constitutional changes of 1966 the
Old Legislative Council became the Senate; but it
seems that in so far as the administration of this
Chamber goes, we are still carrying on as in the old
days. This is not satisfactory. If it meets with the ap-
proval of the Chamber the Committee appointed to
dealwith the subject will put forward its recommen-
dations in due course.


I beg to move that the Resolution be now passed.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE F.G.SMITH: Mr.
President, I think that this Resolution shouldcom-
mend itself. Since the days of the Old Legislative
Council we have had a Civil Servant sitting here as
our clerk without additional renumeration. That is not
fair to him. I want to go on record as saying that the
Senate is also a branch of Parliament. The Other Place
has a Clerk, aDeputyClerkand a Marshal. There
should be some officerwho is responsible to the Pre-
sident of the Upper House which is an important branch
of Parliament.

I have much pleasure in seconding this and I hope
that the Committee will report as soon as possible.
The Committee will have to regularise the putting of
officers on a proper standing.

The question that the Resolution be passed was
put and agreed to.


ADJOURNMENT
On the motion of Senator the Honourable P. M.
Greaves, seconded by Senator F. C. H. Carew the
Senate adjourned at 6.45 p.m.


_

















DEBATES


(OFFICIAL REPORT)


SECOND SESSION OF 1966 71
lUY


THE SENATE

Thursday, 15th February, 1968.
The Senate met in the Senate Chambers, Public
Buildings at 4 o'clock p.m. today.

PRESENT

His Honour Senator E. S. ROBINSON C.B.E.
(President); His Honour Senator C.Asquith PHILLIPS
B.A. (Deputy President); Senator the Honourable P.M.
GREAVES B.A. ( Minister of Home Affairs );
Senator the Honourable L. E. SANDIFORD M.A.
(Minister of Education); Senator H. Odessa GITTENS
M.R.S.H. (Parliamentary Secretary ); Senator S. V.
ASHBY; Senator W. W. BLACKMAN M.B.E.; Senator
F. C. H. CAREW; Senator C. L. BRATHWAITE;
Senator E. Lisle WARD; Senator S. A. BLANCHETTE
Senator F. L. WALCOTT O.B.E.; Senator Erma V.
ROCK; Senator H.F.ALKINS; Senator P. G. MORGAN;
Senator R.G.MAPP; Senator M. A. KING.

ABSENT

Senator the Honourable F..G.SMITHQ.C.(Attor-
ney General); Senator N. A. BARROW B.A.: Senator
D.A. WILES C.M.G., O.B.E.; Senator Dr. R. B.
CADDLE B.Sc., M.B.B.S.

Prayers were said.

EXCUSES FOR ABSENCE

The Clerk informed the Senate that he had been
asked to offer an excuse for the absence of Senator
D.A.Wiles from the day's meeting.

GRANT OF LEAVE

His Hoaour the President informed the Senate
that he had granted leave of absence from the 8th to
18th February, 1968, to Senator N. A. Barrow.


ANNOUNCEMENTS

His Honour the President read the text of a let-
ter dated 12th February, 1968, from His Honour the
Speaker of the House of Assembly.


His Honour the President also read the texts of
two letters dated 9th February, 1968, from the Hon-
ourable J. Cameron Tudor M.P., Leader of the House
of Assembly and the text of his proposed replyto the
two letters from the Honourable J. Cameron Tudor.


PAPERS

Senator the Honourable P.M.Greaves, Minister
of Home Affairs and Leader of the Senate, laid the
following papers: -

1. The Public Officers Loan and Travelling
(Allowances) Regulations, 1968.

2. The Customs Duties (Amendment) Order. 1968.
REPORTS
His Honour the President presented the Report
and Minutes of Proceedings of a meeting of the House
Committee to consider the need for re-decoration and
renovation of the Senate Chamber and its precincts
and to make recommendations, if necessary, for their
improvement.

His Honour the President directed that the Report
and Minutes be printed and circulated to members.
MOTIONS

Senator H. F. Alkins gave notice of the following
Resolution:

Resolved that the Senate approve of the recom-
mendations as contained in the Report dated 15th
February, 1968 of the House Committee and that, if
approved,
Resolved that the said recommendations be for-
warded to Government for implementation.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (CURRENT) No. 43

The President called the first Order A
Resolution to place the sum of $22,659 at the disposal
of the Government to supplement the Estimates 1967-
68 Part 1 Current as shown in the Supplementary
Estimates 1967-68 No. 43 which form the Schedule to
the Resolution.


THE


SENATE











SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P. M. GREAVES:
Mr. President, There are two main items which
form the bulk, if I may say so, of this Resolution.
If there are any questions that Senators propose to ask
I will try to answer them.

With respect to Head 13, Customs, Item 15 Over-
.time the main charge on the vote is in respect of over
time for staff stationed or working at Seawell Air-
port. The increase in flights by larger aircraft bring-
ing more persons to the island resulted in the total
expenditure of this vote. Up to the 30th December
there was only a balance of $5,790 in the vote, and the
expenditure on this vote is at the rate of $4,500 a
month.

It should be noted that flights from the U.S.A.,
from the U.K. and Canada which bring in the bulk of
immigrants arrived after 4.p.m. which is the official
closing time; so any demands made on staff after
4 o'clock will have to be in respect of overtime.

Under Item 74 of Head 29, as the result of the de -
cision to continue work in agronomy at Graeme Hall
Plantation equipment had to be removed from the
station at Codrington which is now reserved as the
site for the National Stadium and installing it at
Graeme Hall. The cost of that operation amountedto
$8,659 which is required to supplement this vote.

Those are the two main items. I may add that
under Item 75 of Head 29 that the sum of $2,500 is
required to meet the expense involved in completing
the installation of irrigation systems at Sayes Court
and Bullens Agricultural Stations. This expense was
incurred at the end of the last financial year, but too
late to be provided for in that year.

The Resolution is for $22,659 and I move that it
be concurred in.

Senator the Honourable L.E.Sandiford seconded
the motion.

The question was put to the Senate and agreed
to.


SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (CURRENT)No. 44

The President called the second Order A
Resolution to place the sum of $6,290 atthe disposal
of the Government to supplement the Estimates 1967-
68 Part 1 Current as shown in the Supplementary
Estimates 1967-68 No. 44 which form the Schedule
to the Resolution.



SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P.M.GREAVES:
Mr. President, Under Head 3, Parliament, Item 18 -
Refreshments, at the end of October there was a
balance of just over $50 in the vote, and a bill amount -
ing to $816. The fact is that refreshments are provided
Wor forty persons in the House of Assembly including
members of the House, the staff of the Reporters and
'Typists, Officers of the House and Policemen.


The request has come about as a result of the
large number of sittings and the prolonged sittings.
Even in this Chamber we certainly have longer sit-
tings. It is estimated that to the end of the financial
year $5,740 will be required for refreshments and
there is a balance of $50 in the vote. Supplementary
provision of $5,590 is therefore required.

Under Head 43, Item 131 Barbados Arts Council,
the Government of Mexico has invited the Government
of Barbados in fact all the governments who are
members of the Olympic Association to participate in
an exhibition of cultural and artistic works to be held
during the time of the Olympic Games in 1968. The
Government of Barbados has decided to participate in
this cultural activity and it has been in fact decided
that the Barbados Arts Council should select four
works for display at the exhibition.

The persons whose works have been selected have
been given $100 for having their works exhibited. The
Government of Mexico had undertaken to install and
take full responsibility for these works of art.

I move, Sir, that the Resolution be concurred in.

Senator the Honourable L.E. Sandiford seconded
the motion.

The question was put to the Senate and agreed to.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (CAPITAL) No. 45
The President called the third Order A
Resolution to place the sum of $135,828 at the disposal
of the Government to supplement the Estimates 1967-
68 Part 11 Capital as shown in the Supplementary
Estimates 1967-68 No. 45 whichform the Schedule to
the Resolution.


SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P.M.GREAVES:
Mr. President, It has been decided that it is necess -
ary to strengthen and extend the taxiway at Sea-
well Airport. This is in fact work for which there
was no estimate but which during the course of time
became necessary and urgent.

The cost of the taxiway is now estimated to
exceed the original cost by this amount of $135,838.
To give senators some indication of the way in which this
expenditure has been incurred, the information I
have shows for instance that blasting of the rock cost
a considerable amount of money in order to level the
adjacent area. There were things not estimated for
and there was the resting of watermains costing
$19,000.

I move, Sir, that the Resolution be concurred in.

Senator F. C. H. Carew seconded the motion.

SENATOR F. L. WALCOTT: Mr. President. -
I feel that more care should be taken in matters of
this sort. To find yourself under-estimating by a
margin as high as 20 per cent is not good enough.
I feel that in the Government Service today enough


1 _












-oare is not taken in these things because if you come
back to the Cabinet subsequently the possibility of
having the request thrown out is very remote. In the
old days when Civil Servants were kept under the
relentless eye of Parliament they had to be more
careful.

I do not think that the public is satisfied because
this can lead to a certain amount of slackness in
making the original estimate. I remember work at the
Harbour compound and the way in which it was done,
and it leads one to the conclusion that a building can
be constructed and when even an ordinary layman
looks at the plan he will see that a wall has been put
up where it should not be and the work has to be done
all over again.

It leads the public to believe that work done by the
Public Works Department is infinitely more ex-
pensive than that done by private contract. We should
stop that. To give one example, the U.W.I. has just
finished one phase of a building project and I be-
lieve that it is the most remarkable thing to have
taken place in this island that a project within the
vicinity of $11/2 million shouldhave been constructed
within the cost, and in fact at a saving. I do not know
when last the Government has been able to save on any
construction.

I believe that there is a feeling in Government
circles that if you vote $400,000 to do a job you must
be able to get rid of the amount voted. It will look more
efficient if you come back for more. I would be glad
if the Minister could state one solitary case in which
the Government has saved money on a building project.

SENATOR E. LISLE WARD: Mr. President, -
I agree with the last speaker that every time an esti-
mate is wrong you can come down to the Legislature
and get these votes passed. As long as that is the case
there will be no strenuous attempt to give closer esti-
mates .

In some cases the actual expenditure is 20 to 30
per cent more than the original estimate. I cannot see
that we should continue along these lines. One feels
that the people who advise the Government on these
things must be slipshod.

What happens also is that the people who are
working say that they have no particular specification
to work to but they always get more money. It is
costing the taxpayers a lot more than it normally
should.

One remembers that some time ago we agreed
about the appointment of a Quantity Surveyor. One
would expect that after these controversies from time
to time over the cost of these projects that the Govern-
ment would be keener about getting expert advice.
I feel that it is a shame that on nearly every project
that we undertake we have to spend at least 20 per
cent more than was estimated.

I put some of the blame on the supervisors who
feel that they can be slack because they can always get
another $100,000 because the work must be done. I


think that we should check up. Money is hard to'get
and unless we spend it more cautiously the country
will find itself in an economic squeeze.

SENATORS. V. ASHBY: Mr. President, I think
that in doing a project like the taxiway at Seawell
which involves excavation it is always difficult to anti-
cipate what it will cost.

While in general I agree that most of these
Government projects seem to be badly estimated, I
think that a thing like a taxiway to accommodate air -
craft of a certain weight could pose problem if you
found that you only had a certain amount of money to
spend and that money could not finish the project.

Speaking generally about Seawell Airport, Ithink
that the expansions there are a good sign. It shows
that development is goingon. I do not agree with some
people who feel that it is because of a lack of planning
that we have to expand there all the time. I think that
it is because development is so rapid. There are other
services like Television and Electricity in which we
are lucky to have foreign capital infused or I do not
know what the position would be today.

Things like running an airport in a developing
country like ours with a developing tourist industry is
becoming more and more a big business. These things
generally might reach a proportion where the Govern-
ment might have to take a second look at how they will
be financed.

The Government might find that the aircraft
industry will have to become involved in expanding the
airport. They might find that it might be wise to con-
sult with airline companies and find out if they will
provide trained personnel other than that which the
Government has.

I think that the time is comingwhen the Govern-
ment will be involved in the administration of Customs
and allow the aircraft industry to become involved in
expanding the airport to accommodate the increasing
number of passengers.

SENATOR THE HONOURABLE P.M.GREAVES:
I will note the views of Senators. I would like to say
that it is not often when projects cost more that the
Government finds that the reason was bad advice.
Often certain heads make demands and requests and
as development of the project takes place put in some-
thing here and a little extra there, and these extras
in many cases amount to a considerable amount of
money.

Those who are familiar with building know that
what invariably happens is that a certain percentage
is put in for contingencies; but these do not cover
extras, and extras are paid for outside of the contract.
They can be very costly.


There are not many buildingprojects than can be
kept within the limits of the estimate, and for those
who have managed to do it it is fortunate.


I -- -F-ll -- ---







304


The question that the Resolution be concurred in
was put and agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT

On the motion of Senator the Honourable P. M.
Greaves seconded by Senator F. C. H. Carew the
Senate adjourned sine die at 4.45 p.m.




University of Florida Home Page
© 2004 - 2010 University of Florida George A. Smathers Libraries.
All rights reserved.

Acceptable Use, Copyright, and Disclaimer Statement
Last updated October 10, 2010 - - mvs