Supplement: House of assembly debates...
 Statutory Instruments Supplement...

Group Title: Official gazette, Barbados
Title: The official gazette
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00076861/00092
 Material Information
Title: The official gazette
Physical Description: v. : ill. ; 33-42 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Barbados
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: BridgetownBarbados Published by authority
Subject: Law -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Genre: periodical   ( marcgt )
General Note: Caption title.
General Note: Supplements issued for some of the numbers.
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Bibliographic ID: UF00076861
Volume ID: VID00092
Source Institution: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: aleph - 001043625
oclc - 12594829
notis - AFC6434

Table of Contents
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    Supplement: House of assembly debates for 16th July, 1968
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    Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 24; S.I. 67: Miscellaneous controls (control of prices) (amendment) (No. 3) order, 1969
        Page B 1
        Page B 2
Full Text



NO. 32




Gazette Notices
Acting Appointments:
V. C. Alleyne as Permanent Secretary, M.C.W. 361
P. M. Harris as Chief Personnel Officer....... 361
O. De.V. Rowe as Permanent Secretary,
Ministry of External Affairs................. 36 I
P. D. Laurie as Senior Assistant Secretary,
Ministry of External Affairs................. 36 I
Amended List of Solicitors on Roll of Solicitors
for the year 1969............ ........................... 368,369
W. H. Brome as Junior Marine Engineer,
Port Department............................... 363
Eleanor Inniss as Typist, Ministry of
Communications and Works................ 363
Inez Walcott; Pauline Smith; Patricia King
to the posts of Catering Supervisor, Q.E.Il. :361
Appointments to the Barbados Marketing Corporation 363
Appointment to the Old Age Pension Claims
Committee ............................................. 375, 376
A. N. Forde assigned to Office of the Prime
Minister and to perform the duties of
Secretary to the Cabinet.................... 364
British Caribbean Currency Board notes for period
1st July, 1967 to 31st December, 1968.......... 372
British Caribbean Currency Board notes for period
1st July, 1967 to 31st January, 1969.......... 373
British Caribbean Currency Board notes for period
1st July, 1967 to 28th February, 1969......... 371
Executorial: Theodora Sobers ........................ 365
Income Tax Notice (Year of Income 1968)........... 370, 371
Resignations: Jeffrey Brathwaite; David K. Hewitt:
Orison Jones....................................... 361, 376
Retirement: P. C. No. 548 C. P. Lewis............... 376
Temporary Appointment:
Dr. H. L. Massiah as Medical Assessor... 364
Vacant Posts of Anaesthetist and Assistant
Anaesthetist...................................... 364, 366
Withdrawals from Royal Barbados Police Force:
Kenville Holder; Philip Francis; Graham
Clarke: Gerald Carter: Samuel Green; Trevor
Pinder and Jeffrey Turney..................... 365

House of Assembly Debates for 16th July, 1968
Legal Supplement
S.I. 1969 No. 67: Miscellaneous Controls (Control of Prices)
(Amendment) (No. 3) Orde

I %wnLI8\



W. H. Brome has been appointed Junior
Marine Engineer, Port Department, with ef-
fect from Ist March, 1969.

(M.P. 4373/20)

Eleanor Inniss has been appointed Typist
Ministry of Communications and Works with
effect from 1st April, 1969.

(M.P. 1680/8 Vol.III)

Appointments to the Barbados Marketing
In accordance with the provisions of
section 3 of the Barbados Marketing Corpora-
tion Act, 1961 (1961-40), as amended, the
following persons have been appointed mem-
bers of the Barbados Marketing Corporation
for a period of three years with effect from
15th March, 1969:-

Mr. E. L. Greaves Chairman
Mr. E. LeR. Ward
Mr. F. W. Blackman
Mr. 0. A. Hinds
The Chief Agricultural Officer.

3.24. Z7i

(I #t

OFFCIA GAET Api 21, 1969_



The following persons have been ap-
pointed to the posts of Catering Supervisor,
Queen Elizabeth, Hospital with effect from
1st March, 1969.

Mrs. Inez Walcott
Mrs. Pauline Smith
Miss Patricia King

(M.P. 443/82)

Acting Appointments

Miss P. M. Harris, Senior Personnel
Officer, acted as Chief Personnel Officer, for
a further period with effect from 18th Feb-
ruary to 1st March, 1969.

(M.P. C. 690 Vol. IV)

V. C. Alleyne, Senior Assistant Secre-
tary, Ministry of Communications and Works
has been appointed to act as Permanent Se-
cretary, Ministry of Communications and
Works, with effect from 5th May to 30th Sep-
tember, 1969.

(M.P. C. 690 Vol. IV)

O. DeV. Rowe, Senior AssistantSecre-
tary, Ministry of External Affairs, has been
appointed to act as Permanent Secretary
(High Commissioner), Ministry of External
Affairs, with effect from 1st July, 1969 to
30th September, 1969.

P. D. Laurie, Administrative Assistant,
Ministry of External Affairs, has been ap-
pointed to act as Senior Assistant Secretary,
Ministry of External Affairs with effect from
1st July, 1969 to 30th September, 1969.

Temporary Appointment of Medical
Dr. H. L. Massiah has been appointed to
continue to act as a Medical Assessor during
the absence of Dr. E. B. Carter who is onex-
tended sick leave.

(M.P. 26A2)


A. N. Forde, Permanent Secretary, was
assigned to the Office of the Prime Minister
and to perform the duties of Secretary to the
Cabinet for a further period with effectfrom
22nd September, to 30th September, 1968.

(N.P. C. 690 Vol. IV)


Jeffrey Brathwaite, Clerical Officer,
General Post Office, has resigned from the
Public Service with effect from 5th Septem-
ber, 1968.

(M.P. P. 8264)

Orison F. Jones, Clerical Officer, Regis-
tration Office, has resigned from the Public
Service with effect from 22nd March, 1969.

(M.P. P. 6644)

Vacant Posts in the Public Service

Anaesthetist and Assistant Anaesthetist,
Queen Elizabeth Hospital.
Salary Scale: $10,080 per annum (fixed)

Further particulars are obtained from
Service Commissions Department,
"Flodden", Culloden Road, St. Michael.

Closing date for applications: 31stMay, 1969.

(M.P. 1515/39/22/10)


April 21, 1969

(M.P. 443/79)

April 21. 1969O

NOTICE NO. 247 (third publication)


Re the Estate of



Notice is hereby given that all creditors
and other persons having any claims or de-
mands against the estate of Theodora Sobers
late of St. Stephens, Black Rock in the parish
of Saint Michael in the Island of Barbados,
Domestic, deceased who died on the 8th day of
January 1969 and of whose estate Letters of
Administration were granted by the Supreme
Court of Judicature of this Island on the 25th
day of February 1969 to Belfield Padmore the
nephew of the deceased are hereby required
to send particulars in writing of their claims
or demands to the said Belfield Padmore C/o
Charles S. Cheesman at the office of W. I.

Griffith, Solicitor,, at Whitepark, Bridgetown,
onor before the 30th day of June, 1969 at the
undermentioned address after which date the
said Belfield Padmore will proceed to distri-
bute the assets of the said Theodora Sobers
deceased amongst the parties entitled thereto
having regard to the claims and demands of
which he shall then have had notice and the
said Belfield Padmore will not be liable for
the assets of the said Theodora Sobers de-
ceased or any part thereof sodistributedto
any person or persons of whose claim or de-
mands he shall not then have had notice.

And all person indebted to the estate
are requested to settle their indebtedness
without delay.

Dated this 19th day of March 1969.

C/o W. I. Griffith, Solicitor,
Whitepark, Bridgetown.



No. 420 Police Constable Kenville Halton
Holder, has been granted permission to with-
draw from the Royal Barbados Police Force,
with effect from ist January, 1969.

(M.P. 3816 Vol. VII)

The following persons have been granted
permission to withdraw from the Royal Bar-
bados Police Force:-

No. 475 Police Constable Philip Clement
Francis, with effect from 7th April, 1969.

No. 43 Police Constable Graham Althea
Clarke, with effect from 15th February,

No. 524 Police Constable Gerald Carter,
with effect from 13th February, 1969;

No. 479 Police Constable Samuel Green,
with effect from 1st April, 1969.

No. 576 Police Constable Trevor Erskine
Pinder, with effect from 31st March,

No. 554 Police Constable Geoffrey
Turney, with effect from 15th April,

(M.P. 3816 Vol. VII).


April 21, -1969




Applications are invited from suitably qualified persons for ap-
pointment to the above posts.
Qua lifications:
(a) For the post of Anaesthetist, the fellowship in Anaesthesia
of the Royal College of Surgeons or equivalent, plus not
less than six years post-qualification experience, at least
four years of which must have been spent in the practice
of anaesthesia;

(b) For the post of Assistant Anaesthetist, the Diploma in
Anaesthesia or equivalent, plus not less than two years
post-qualification experience, at least one year of which
must have been spent in the practice of anaesthesia.

Salary: The Salary of the posts is $10,080 per annum (fixed)

Consulting Practice: Private consulting practice is permitted in the hospital
and in the case of the Anaesthetist only, outside the hospital, provided this
does not interfere with Government duties. For consulting practice in the
hospital the officers will receive a non-pensionable allowance of 75% of the
Fees paid into the Public Treasury for specialistservices renderedbytheof-
ficer. The officer will retain full fees paid to him for consulting practice out-
side of the hospital.

Application forms (S.C. 21) and full details of posts may be ob-
tained from the Service Commissions Department, "Flodden" Culloden Road,
St. Michael.

Application forms should reach the Chief Personnel Officer,
Service Commissions Department "Flodden" Culloden Road, St. Michael,
Barbados, not later than 31st May, 1969.

2nd April, 1969.

April 21, 1969






EC $

Coin in Circulatioa

Other Liabilities
Transferred from income and
Expenditure account

Balance from end-December,

EC $



71,585.48 338,790.18

EC $

Extera Assets:

Exporters Refinery Corporation
Bury St. Edmonds

6 3/4% Exchequer Stock, 1971
(Market Value)


EC $



Crown Agents, London

Bank of England, London



EC $4,539,787.70

EC $4,539,787.70

January 28, 1969

Acting Executive Commissioner
Coin Continuation Board.


FOR YEAR, 1969

Appearing on the Rolls on 1st February 1969

ALLEN, Geoffrey Walton

ARMSTRONG, Joseph Coleridge

BANFIELD, Dave Arrindell

BAYLEY, Edmund Alexander

BOYCE, Alfred DeCourcy

BROOKS, Cyril Bruce

BROWNE, John Philip

BROWNE, Kenneth Clifford

CHAPMAN, Robert Clifford

CLARKE, Alfred Henderson

CLARKE, George Denis

CLARKE, George Louis Whitfoot


DAVIS, Woodbine Agustus
EDGHILL, Charles Edwin

EVELYN, Peter Richard

(Crown Solicitor)

FITZWILLIAM, Neil Benedict George

FITZWILLIAM, Peter Thomas Oliver


GILL, Lindsay Ercil Ryeburn

GRIFFITH, Winston Irvine

HAYNES, Winston Orville Oscar

HEWITT, Mitchinson Edward Sylvester

HUSBANDS, Herbert Austin

C/o Yearwood & Boyce,
14, James Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Cottle Catford & Co.,
17, High Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Hutchinson & Banfield,
James Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Carrington & Sealy,
Lucas Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Yearwood & Boyce,
14, James Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Yearwood & Boyce,
14, James Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Browne, Husbands & Co.,
Coleridge Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Browne & Chapman,
Pinfold Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Browne & Chapman,
Pinfold Street, Bridgetown.


C/o Carrington & Sealy,
Lucas Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Cottle Catford & Co.,
17, High Street, Bridgetown.
Enterprise Road, Christ Church.

Cane Vale, Christ Church.

C/o Hutchinson & Banfield,
James Street, Bridgetown.

C/o R. S. Nicholls & Co.,
Pinfold Street, Bridgetown.
Navy Gardens, Christ Church

C/o FitzWilliam, Stone & Alcazar,
Lucas Street, Bridgetown.



C/o Cottle Catford & Co.,
17, High Street, Bridgetown.

White Park Road, St. Michael

12, High Street, Bridgetown.

C/o FitzWilliam, Stone & Alcazar,
Lucas Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Browne, Husbands & Co.,
Coleridge Street, Bridgetown.


April 21, 1969

A rl 21 1 69O


HUTCHINSON, Frederick St. Clair

HUTCHINSON, Reynold St. Clair

JOHNSON, Peter Nigel Huan

LAWRENCE, Denys Meade

LINDSAY, David Gordon

LYNCH, Douglas Percy

MANDEVILLE, Randall Grey

MARTINDALE, Alfred Emmanuel

MAYNARD, George Arthur Albert
(Deputy Crown Solicitor)

MAYNARD, Norma Eunice

McCLURG, Hamish Greig


NICHOLLS, Richard Stanley

PILE, Douglas Anthony Laurie

ROGERS, Erskine DaCosta

ROCHEFORD, Colin Andrew
SIMMONS, Hugh Michael

SYMMONDS, Algernon Washington
(Permanent Secretary Ministry
of Home Affairs)

STONE, Peter Stanley Edward

THOMAS, Herbert Lisle

THORNTON, Edward Keith

TURNEY, Gittens Clyde

WATSON, Allan St. Clair

WHITE, Winston Leroy

WILKIE, Noel Gray

WILLIAMS, Colin Anthony

WORKMAN, John Allington


C/o Cottle Catford & Co.,
17, High Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Hutchinson & Banfield,
James Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Yearwood & Boyce,
14, James Street, Bridgetown.


C/o Carrington & Sealy,
Lucas Street, Bridgetown.
"Mellyn", Pine Hill,
St. Michael
33 St. Ann's Court, Garrison,
St. Michael.
"Cranford", 9th Ave. Belleville,
St. Michael.


C/o Carrington & Sealy,
Lucas Street, Bridgetown.


C/o R. S. Nicholls & Co.
Pinfold Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Carrington & Sealy,
Lucas Street, Bridgetown.

White Park Road, Bridgetown.

21, Margaret Terrace,
Pine Gardens, St. Michael.
C/o Cottle Catford & Co.,
17, High Street, Bridgetown.
Strathclyde, St. Michael.


C/o Yearwood & Boyce,
14, James Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Yearwood & Boyce,
14, James Street, Bridgetown.
C/o R. S. Nicholls & Co.
Pinfold Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Cottle Catford & Co.,
17, High Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Browne & Chapman,
Pinfold Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Browne & Chapman,
Pinfold Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Hutchinson & Banfield,
James Street, Bridgetown.
C/o Yearwood & Boyce,
14, James Street, Bridgetown.



A ril 21 1969


(Year of Income 1968)

Notice is hereby given that Income Tax Returns are required from:-

(1) Every Company, and every person resident or non resident who has
carried on a business, profession, vocation, trade, manufacture or un-
dertaking of any kind, or an adventure or concern in the nature of trade
in Barbados during the income year 1968.

(2) Every person who was in the income year 1968 -
(a) an owner of land;
(b)' as owner of property, other than land, from which as assess-
able income was derived:
(c) a trust or estate;
(d) an individual who
(i) was a married person who wholly supported his spouse,
(ii) was a married man whose wife was habitually livingwith
and whose assessable income, including the assessable income of
his spousewas $1,400 or over in the income year; or

(e) an individual other than an individual described in paragraph
(d) whose assessable income was $800 or over in the income

2. Return Forms

Returns may be obtained from the Inland Revenue Department (2nd
Floor) Treasury Building, Bridge Street, and forms duly filled in must
be delivered to me on or before 30th April, 1969.

3. Every Company and every other person required to file a return of his
assessable income shall in the return
(a) set out the deductions from assessable income that he wishes to
(b) calculate his taxable income, and
(c) estimate the amount of tax payable by him.


April 21, 1969

4. Payment of Tax
The tax as estimated and unpaid must be paid as indicated hereunder: -

(a) By Companies
on or before 30th April, 1969.

(b) By Individuals
One half (1/2) not later than 30th June, 1969.
The other half (1/2) not later than 30th November, 1969.

Commissioner of Inland Revenue.


1. Short Form

This return form should be used by persons in receipt of income from
the following sources only:-

(a) employment (salary, wages pension etc.) and
(b) interest arising in Barbados.

a brochure has been prepared to assist persons using the short form in
completing returns and estimating tax payable. A copy will be issued with
each form. Please ensure that you obtain a copy.

2. General Form

This return form should be used by all other persons. For persons filing
the General Form a Guide has been prepared; this should be of assis-
tance in completing returns and estimating tax payable. A copy will be
issued with each return form.


(1) Failure to deliver a return of income by 30th April, 1969, to estimate
tax payable, 5% of tax assessed and unpaid,

(2) Failure to pay an account of tax estimated or that is assessed and
unpaid 5% of the tax due and unpaid or $10 which ever is the greater,

And in addition to penalties at (1) and (2) liable on Summary con-
viction toa fine of not less than $10.00 and not greater than $10,000.

(3) Interest at the rate of 1% per month.

April 21, 1969


British Caribbean Currency Board Notes


--------------------- -------------- ---------------- '----

Amounts claimed from and paid
by Crown Agents under para-
graph (2) of the Agreement

British Caribbean Currency
Board notes in hand on 31st
December, 1968 and not yet

British Caribbean Currency
Board notes cancelled as at
31st December, 1968

British Caribbean Currency
Board notes destroyed as
at 31st December, 1968













__ _ _ 3 I4





Acting Managing Director
April 3, 1969.

British Caribbean Currency Board Notes



Amounts claimed from and paid
by Crown Agents under para-
graph (2) of the Agreement 410,402.00 134,904.50 560,377.50 1,105,684.00

British Caribbean Currency
Board notes in hand on 31st
January, 1969 and not yet
claimed 5,353.00 3,606.50 2,391.00 11,350.50

British Caribbean Currency
Board notes cancelled as at
31st January, 1969 410,402.00 134,904.50 558,877.50 1,104,184.00

British Caribbean Currency
Board notes destroyed as
at 31st January, 1969 410,402.00 134,904.50 558,877.50 1,104,184.00

Acting Managing Director,
April 3, 1969.

British Caribbean Currency Board Notes


AND (3) OF


Amounts claimed from and paid
by Crown Agents under para-
graph (2) of the Agreement 410,402.00 134,904.50 573,115.50 1,118,422.00

British Caribbean Currency
Board notes in hand on 28th
February, 1969 and not yet
claimed 6,756.00 5,216.50 NIL 11,972.50

British Caribbean Currency
Board notes cancelled as
at 28th February, 1969 410,402.00 134,904.50 573,115.50 1,118,422.00

British Caribbean Currency
Board notes destoryed as
at 28th February, 1969 410,402.00 134,904.50 573,115.50 1,118,422.00

Acting Managing Director,
April 3, 1969.



The Minister of Health and Community Development, in exercise of the
powers vested in him by section 10 of the Old Age Pension Act, 1937 (1937-
13), has appointed the following persons to be members of the Pension Claims

Committee for the respective parishes for the period January 1st to June 30th

St. Michael

Christ Church

St. Philip

St. John

St. Joseph

St. Andrew

St. Lucy

Reverend E. C. M. Mural Chairman
Mr. John Daniel
Mrs. Octavia Cumberbatch

Senator F. C. H. Carew Chairman
Mr. E. R. Lord
Dr. J. A. Smith

Mr. P, S. W. Scott Chairman
Miss May Clarke
Miss M. Lyte

Mr. Ivan Weekes Chairman
Mrs. Eglantine Bennett
Mr. Eustace Gill

The Reverend G. H. Dickenson -

Mrs. Blandan Harding
Mr. Ashton Blackman

The Reverend E. Gatherer -
Mr. Elric Haynes
Mr. Theophilus Shorey

Mr. G. A. C. Roach Chairman
Mr. Chesterfield Yearwood
Mrs. Naomi Springer

April 21, 1969





St. Peter

St. James

St. Thomas

St. George



Mr. T. S. Chandler Chairman
Mr. Leonard Cumberbatch
Mr. Edward Leacock

Mr. Anthony G. Johnson Chairman
Mr. Gaston Robinson
Mr. Alphonso Bend

Mr. William T. Gooding Chairman
Mr. Clifford Cave
Mr. Leibert Darlington

Mr. L. C. Moore Chairman
Mr. Frank Forde
Mr. Walter Price

(M.P. 36D12)



David K. Hewitt, Clerical Officer, Cus-
toms Department, resigns from the Public
Service with effect from 28th April, 1969.

(M.P. P.8777).

Acting Appointment

S. O. Lorde, Head Teacher, has been ap-
pointed to act as Education Officer, Ministry
of Education, with effect from 1st September,
1968 until further notice.

(M.P. 1515/39/13/9/227)


P.C. No. 548 C. P. Lewis, has been
granted permission to retire from the Royal
Barbados Police Force, with effect from 17th
April, 1969.

(M.P. P. 9198)


Dennis Morgan, Clerical Officer, Minis-
try of Health & Community Development, has
resigned from the Public Service with effect
from 31st March, 1969.

(P.F. P. 9068)

Government Printing Office.


April 21, 1969


House of Assembly Debates




Tuesday, 16th July, 1968.
Pursuant to the adjournment, the House of As-
sembly met at 1215 p.m. o'clock today.


His Honour J. E. T. BRANCKER, Q.C.,.F.Z.S.,(Speaker);
Hon. C. E. TALMA, (Minister of Health and Community Devel-
opment); Hon. J. C. TUDOR, M.A., (Leader of the House); Mr.
J. W. CORBIN, J.P.;:Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON, (Minister of
Trade, Tourism, Co-operatives and Fisheries); Mr. R.. ST.C
WEEKS, J.P.;.Mr. W. R. LOWE, J.P.; Hon. N. W.. BOXILL,
(Minister of Communications and Works); Mr. J. B. YEARWOOD,
J.P. (Chairman of Committees); Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS, (Min-
ister of Agriculture, Labour and National Insurance); Mr. W. C. B.
HINDS; and Mr. C. A. E. HOPPIN, J.P.

Prayers were read.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS entered the Chamber and took his


Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that hon. members,
who are not unaccustomed to: hearing me say that
there are no Minutes ready, will have to forgive me
for repeating that again today. There are no Minutes
available for confirmation.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker,on behalf of the
Hon. and Learned Prime Minister, Minister of Fi-
nance and Minister of External Affairs, I beg to give
notice of a Resolution to place the sum of $450,000
S at the disposal of the Government to supplement the
Estimates 1968-69, Part II Capital as shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 14 which form
S the Schedule to the Resolution.

A Resolution to place the sum of $8,100 at the
disposal of the Government to supplement the Esti-
mates 1968-69 Part I Current, as shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 15 which form
the Schedule to the Resolution.

A Resolution to place the sum of $6,114 at the
disposal of the Government to supplement the Esti-

mates 1968-69 Part II Capital, as shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 16 which form
the Schedule to the Resolution.

With respect to Resolutions 1 and 2, copies of
which, I believe, have been circulated to hon. mem-
bers, with Your Honour's permission, it is my in-
tention to proceed with these Resolutions later in the
day in all their stages.

With respect to Resolution No. 3, I beg to give
notice that I am going to move the House into Com-
mittee of Supply at its next meeting.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to
give notice that Oral Replies to Parliamentary Ques -
tions No. 173 asked by the hon. senior member for
St. Joseph, andNo. 176 asked by the hon. junior mem-
ber for St. Peter are ready.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, with re-
spect to the intimation of the Leader of the House
that he intends to proceed with Resolutions 1 and 2
in all their stages, the Opposition strongly protest
against that. We are not agreeing with that. Nobody
that I got in touch with late yesterday evening re-
ceived copies of the Resolutions until the afternoon
post, and it is unreasonable, with such a large sum
at stake, to ask us to deal with these Resolutions
in all their stages today. Obviously these are not
things that have just arisen.

Mr. Speaker, if the Hon. Leader of the House had
made an explanation that it was impossible to bring
the matters to the House before, or that they were
matters of grave urgency and we must do them im-
mediately as it would have been impossible to bring
them to the House before, it would have been a dif-
ferent mattel. But to ask us to vote such a large sum
- huge for Barbados or to ask us to deal with the
matters in all their stages today, is not merely ask-
ing too much of the Opposition, but is almost a con-
temptuous consideration of the rights of the

We have often agreed to minor things, after an
explanation that they could not come before the
House earlier. Nobody in his senses would disagree
with something of minor importance, but we need a
lot of explanation about these matters; we needtime



to make enquiries for ourselves, andwe need to make,
comparison with other expenditure and, in the light
of our revenue position, to consider whether we
should agree to these matters.

I repeat, on behalf of the Opposition, that we
strongly protest against this, and we are not going to
give our agreement to considering these Resolutions
through all their stages today.

Mr. SPEAKER: There is something inthe name
of the hon. senior member for St. James, but he does
not appear to be in his place.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Standing Orders Nos. 5, 14, 16, 18, 19, 38, 40
and 45 be suspended for the remainder of today's

As I intimated at the last meeting and hon.
members of the House are well aware the hon.
members opposite propose to make their reply to
the Financial Statement and Budgetary Proposals
at half-past four, and it will be broadcastlive for 78
minutes. In this case, Mr. Speaker, it will be neces-
sary for whoever happens to be addressingthe Chair
at 4.25 p.m. to give way to enable me to move the
necessary motion for Private Members' Business to
be taken.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, arising out of what
the Leader of the House has said, I think that we had
reached a decision where equal facilities would be
given the Opposition for broadcast of this Budget
Reply. I have to enquire of the Leader of the House
if he has come around to appreciating that our un-
derstanding and interpretation of equal facilities
must be taken to mean a re-broadcast during Gov-
ernment time as was accorded the Prim-, Minis-
ter's Address. It is not a case of how the Leader of
the House might feel where his Government is con-
cerned, whether he would resign or else. Perhaps
the Prime Minister will be glad to get rid of him,
but that is a matter for them. It is just a question
of Your Honour's interpretation of equal facilities.
We feel satisfied that you will do your best to pro-
tect the Opposition in a matter such as this.

The question that Standing Orders Nos. 5, 14, 16, 18, 19,
38, 40 and 45 be suspended for the remainder of today's sitting
was put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, on a point
of order. Surely the Leader of the House has some
reply to make to the hon. member for St. Peter. It
is our clear understanding, and I took it that the hon.
member's colleagues on his right pointed out to him
last Tuesday that what we were saying was an ac-
curate report of what had been promisedus. At least
the hon. member will make some explanation as to

whether re-broadcast facilities are to be affordedthe
Opposition tonight.
12.25 p.m.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Government Business be now taken.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order,
apart from the lack of manners on the part of the
Leader of the House in brusquely brushing that aside
it is of the utmost importance, before 4.30 p.m.
comes, at this stage for us to know whether the
Leader of the House is sticking to his word or not.
The threat of resigning means nothing to us. He could
resign or not resign; it is a matter of indifference to
us. If he chooses to quarrel with his colleagues, it is a
matter for him; but if his colleagues pointed out to
him that we were speaking the truth, that our inter-
pretation of the truth was the interpretation of truth
and not the Leader's interpretation, surely this
House is not to be treated with contempt. We ought
to know now from the Leader of the House whether
we are going to get this re-broadcast or not. We are
not making any empty threats, but the question of
this Budget debate is in my hands as Mover of the
Resolution in reply, and it will take place or not
take place according to how the Leader of the House

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second the motion.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmativewith-
out division,


Mr. SPEAKER: The first Order of the Day under
Government Business stands in the name of the Hon.
Leader of the House: to move the second reading of a
Bill to provide for the establishment of an educational
institution to be known as the Barbados Community
College and for matters connected therewith and in-
cidental thereto.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, this Billwhich,
I believe, by now all hon. members willhave received
and studied, sets out to establish a new educational
institution in this country to be known for the time
being as the Barbados Community College, to pro-
vide a place of education, as the Objects and Reasons
say, offering instruction in certain fields and in any
other field of education which the Minister may from
time to time determine. The Schedule to the Bill
sets out the provisions, functions and procedures of
the Community College Board, the way in which the
Board is to administer the Institution, and the way
in which the administration, generally speaking, of
the Board is to be conducted. But in effect, Mr.
Speaker, what the Bill sets out to do in some detail
is to provide places in secondary education for stu-
dents who have completed studies at the General
Certificate of Education at Ordinary Level, and who

--- ----

from time to time may desire to continue their
studies to Advanced Level.

This is a problem which has become rather dif-
ficult in the last few years, and this difficult trend,
unless it is ameliorated or unless something is done
to meet the new conditions of this demand, is ex-
pected to continue.

At the moment pupils from ten Government
Grammar Schools, five Comprehensive Schools and
a large number of Approved Independent Schools all
write in their Fifth Forms the General Certificate
of Education at Ordinary Level. Of the Government
Grammar Schools, only four of them provide addi-
tional and regular Sixth Form teaching, and one of
these four Institutions is the only one catering ex-
clusively to girls. Recently an arrangement has been
set in motion whereby pupils of the appropriate age
and aptitudes from St. Michael's Girls' continue
their Sixth Form studies at Combermere School, and
of course we are all familiar with the fact that the
St. Michael's Girls' School som', time ago had or-
ganised Sixth Form teaching which is not now

What the Government is aiming at through this
Bill is the provision of a post-"O" Level training
for all students who acquire at least four "0" Level
certificates at one sitting or who acquire five or
more at more than one sitting or, of course, the
equivalent qualifications. I think it was some weeks
ago that a series of questions addressedto the Min-
ister were answered in this House, which gave in
some detail the position and numbers of pupils who
fall into this category. I believe it was explained how
many pupils from each school in each of several
years had qualified in five or less than five "0"
Level subjects at particular times, and also the
number of pupils who would likely be involved in
Fifth Form instruction and in post-Fifth Form in-

Now the problem therefore is this: it has become
evident that there is now a demand on behalf of some
200' or so pupils coming from all these schools who
have already qualified for Sixth Form teaching or
are likely to qualify when the results of this year's
General Certificate Examination at "0" Level are
known, and these cannot, by weight of sheernumbers
alone, be accommodated in the four Sixth Form
schools, even with such minor adjustments as had
been made in the case of St. Michael's Girls at
For these and other reasons which I shall touch
upon in the course of my comments, it has become
desirable to establish an Institution catering mainly
to this body of pupils of the immediate post-G.C.E.
range of studies, and also equally catering for those
persons, young people, who may have left school,
who may be working and who wish to return to and
resume their studies at post-G.C.E. Level and are
eminently well qualified to do so.

Now obviously in a project of this sort, you are
bound to find large numbers of people although, I

believe, well meaning who express a critical in-
terest, if I may put it this way, in the project, but
who do not quite understand how it is going to work,
and who believe erroneously, as I shall show -
that the establishment of this College will somehow
bring about a deterioration both in the quality and
quantity of Sixth Form training available to the
young people of this country.
12.35 p.m.

First of all, with respect to the Sixth Forms
already existing in the Government Grammar
Schools of this island, the Minister has been chal-
lenged and queried on this matter several times, and
he has, just as many times, replied to the points
asked of him. The fear expressed is that he proposes
to abolish all the Sixth Forms existing in the four
schools which now have them. He has not said this,
and indeed he would not say this, simply because the
idea of the Community College is not to take away
something which already exists, but to provide
elsewhere, and in a more commodious and a more
economical fashion, facilities to be enjoyed by per-
sons who, because of the limited facilities now avail -
able, would not be able so to enjoy them.

The second point in this respect is this; some
detractors have from time to time made the point
that they fear, as I said before, both for the quality
and, possibly, for the quantity of post-Fifth Form
education, if the principle of the Community College
is accepted. The Minister has already, I think, ef-
fectively dealt with this point on statistics alone.
If you have a situation in which you are now ac-
commodating, should we say, two hundred persons
in four schools and you find on the basis of the
figures before you, that these numbers are, increas-
ing, there are two alternatives whichyou canpursue.
You can, in theory and in practice, spend more money
on the four schools which you have now, or you can
both in theory and in practice provide the facilities
at all the schools which you have, and this is an ar-
gument which has been pressedupon the Government
from time to time, although I cannot subscribe to
either of those two arguments for the simple reason
that there is a limit to the physical and other plant
of a particular educational institution. It is true that
in a country like the United States of America you
can have High Schools I have seen one of them
myself with a school roll of some three thousand
with an organization so planned that, in effect, there
are two or so schools operating within the same
plant a separate administration for one span of the
day, and another administration for another span of
the day.

You can do this even here in Barbados, although
we do not like it. Through pressure of numbers, for
instance, we have just adopted, regrettably, the shift
system on the St. Leonard's Campus, but everybody
is quite properly askingwhen will this situation come
to an end, because everybody feels that there is
something about it which is not quite what it should
be, and that, in fact, nobody gets the most satis-
factory benefit from such an arrangement.


The other alternative I am examining is the one,
which has been most frequently urged upon the Gov-
ernment and that is: "Why don't you give all your
Grammar Schools Sixth Forms?" Here again this is
a question of cost, availability and of Specialist
Teachers. It may not be generally well considered
at this point but there is one aspect which one has
got to take into account. Of course, you can provide
Sixth Form teaching of a sort in any Secondary
School. You can have a Sixth Form of three or four
or even of a dozen people in any one year, and you
can mobilize three or four of the suitably-qualified
members of your staff to teach these small numbers
of anything from two up to a dozen. You can do this,
and this has been tried here and elsewhere, but it
has been discovered that there are certain conse-
quences of this. Firstly, you do not always in each
and .every year maintain the upward flow out of the
Fifth Forms by reason of the numbers or because
pupils have not qualified, and sometimes also it has
been discovered that in a school of a certain size,
when you deflect two or three people to bear the
burden of Sixth Form teaching with a dozen or even
fewer pupils, you are most certainly robbing your
Middle and perhaps your Lower Schools of the weight
of teaching experience and expertise which have been
deflected into the Sixth Forms. The people who know
most about this have said that the ideal Sixth Form
institution in a school would be a situation in which
you have anything from thirty to one hundred pupils
having Sixth Form teaching and doing a range of
fifteen or sixteen subjects. The deployment of man-
power and physical plant appears, in the view of such
experts, to match the opportunities which exist for
teaching and learning.

I want to digress just for a minute or two to
mention: a point which has, Mr. Speaker, always given
me considerable anxiety whenever I reflect on this
clamour for Sixth Form teaching. When Iwas Minis -
ter of Education, I drew the attention of both the
Governing Bodies of Harrison College and Lodge
School to a matter which I thought needed and de-
served their attention, and it was this. Ihave noticed
from the figures submitted from year to year, and
for reasons which we can all understand, that fewer
and fewer pupils were offering Greek at Sixth Form
level. At the time when Idrewthis to their attention,
I think that there must have been about four people
in the Sixth Form at Harrison College, and about
three in the Sixth Form at the Lodge School. I per-
sonally took the view at the time, as I take it now,
that it would have been better for the teaching of
Greek to be kept alive vigorously in one school
rather than be allowed to die in two schools, because
I was certain that the time would surely come when
we would be employing a Sixth Form Classical mas -
ter or masters in both schools, andtheywould, each
of them, find that they had only one or two people or,
in soms years, none at all.
12.45 p.m.

My idea was that by mutual agreement between
the two Governing Bodies a decision would be reached
as to where the full weight of Classical tuition would
.be given, and if it would be concentrated in either

of the two schools according to mutual agreement
between the two Government Bodies.

I was not pressing on them any decision of my
own as to in which school Classical studies should
continue, but I did take the view, as I hold it now,
that it would have been better to keep it alive and
vigorous in one school than to allowitto die in both.

I do not know what the position is because I have
not kept track of it, but I am sure that it is no better
in respect of that particular branch of study now than
it was six or so years ago.

I made that digression, Mr. Speaker, to show
hon. members what are some of the real problems
of Sixth Form Teaching and the region in which they
lie. If you want three, four or a half-dozen pupils
in each school to have Sixth Form teaching and you
have the money to pay for it, you can do this; but
you are utilising a considerable amount of man-
power and expertise which could be more valuably
employed with a larger number of people.

The same person, for instance, that can deliver,
shall we say, a History lecture to three or four peo-
ple can do it with ease to 60 or 70, provided the pu-
pils show an aptitude for this orthat branch of study,
It is true that in the teaching of Science, I believe,
you can only get so many people in a Laboratory at
the same time; but even there the experts say that if
you are going to teach "A" level Science in Sixth
Form and you have Laboratory accommodation for
15 or 20 people, you canuse itproperly so that it is
used at its full capacity rather than have it under-
capacitated, if there is such a word.

Hon. members must know this, because they
are as aware of these problems as anybody else,
that every year in the Grammar Schools there is
a constant cry for more and more staff. This is so
because trained graduates are not only needed for
working in the schools, but the competition for their
services is so enormous, that very often each
graduate upon leaving the University has a very
enticing choice as to whether he might go into
teaching or industry or administration or what you
will, and since it seems to be a common problem
all over the world with the attractions in industry
or Government or anywhere other than teaching -
being so much better than those in teaching, the
competition for the services of graduates becomes
keener and keener, and schools find themselves
caught in what I call though not offensively this
rat race of trying to attract staffs which they cannot
get because of the keenness of the competition for
the services of graduates.

Now it seems to me therefore again I must
fall back on the experts if the experts think that
the proper teacher-pupil ratio in the Grammar
Schools, in the Government Grammar Schools, is
1 to 22, and even with that ratio those schools find
it extremely difficult to attract the staff inthe num-
bers they want when they want them, it seems to me
that if you spread Sixth Form teaching onthe old basis


from school to school, not only would you fail in,
maintaining what is thought to be the appropriate
teacher-pupil ratio, but you would also fail to attract
graduates for the obvious reason that in our 10
schools now, six of which do not offer Sixth Form
tuition they still find it difficult to get the appro-
priate teaching strength for the Middle and Lower

It seems to me that if you were to spread on the
old basis Sixth Form teaching in these schools, the
demands would not only be greater, but the competi-
tion between the schools would be more cut throat
than ever. It seems to me, therefore, that what the
Government is trying to do is to make a courageous
attempt to meet this problem in the only way in which
it can be successfully met, and that is by using what
I suggest would be called the economics of skill to
suit the demand which is being made by post-G.C.E.
pupils for this type of education.

If you had 200 or 250 people to prepare at one
time for "A" Level or its equivalent, it might be
easier for you to recruit the 15, 16, or 20 people
for a single institution, even if you may not be able
to do it all at the same time, than it would be for you
to recruit, not at the same time, the same number of
people in different schools only when those needs

Not only this, Mr. Speaker, but there is also this
further point. The Comm-inity College will not only
provide what we like to call the normal traditional
Sixth Form teaching, but as Ihave pointedout, it will
also serve those persons whose studies have been in-
terrupted, but who from time to time may wish to re -
sume their studies at "A" Level higher than that
which they had formally achieved.

The range of studies which it will eventually
offer are not, all of them, academic. It is hoped that
in time hon. members have already seen this in the
Objects and Reasons of the Bill it is hoped that in
time commercial studies and agricultural studies for
those who have any aptitude for them will be made

Meanwhile, of course, in order to meet the im-
mediate' problems posed, it is proposed that a start
should be made in academic and scientific subjects.
I want to make this point before I go any further.
I think that one of the reasons why the problem has
to be met in this way is really a tribute to the clever-
ness and ability to learn of the children themselves.
Nowadays, when you admit a child at 11 to enter
a secondary school it is certain, generally speaking,
that when that child is 16 years old he is ready for
the G.C.E. and some may do it at 15 or 15 1/2 de-
pending on how good they are. But certainly, by the
time they are reaching or approaching or at their
16th birthday, they are ready to take the first public
examination. Well, it stands to reason that if a pupil
can take that examination at 15 plus or at 16, he or
she has got certainly not less than three years for
doing Sixth Form work.
12.55 p.m.

Now in a case like this, you will see that there
would be, from year to year, an accumulation of new
people, some of whom will have done their five and
more subjects at one time, and others of whom will
have done their five subjects on two or more occa-
sions, but all of whom have the necessary aptitude
to proceed to Sixth Form studies. It is this ac-
cumulation of which we have to take care.

As I have said, you could try to take care of the
problem by putting a Sixth Form in all the schools
that the Government control, but you would not
necessarily by that method be solving all of your
problems because the cost would have to be dupli-
cated or triplicated in as many schools. The availa-
bility of staff could not always be guaranteed. It is
probable that the three or four most prominent
schools would continue to take the cream of the
available staff with others going without. It seems to,
me,having examined the problem dispassionately,that
the solution lies in what we are proposing.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the Bill and its Clauses deal
with the general structure, aims and objectives of the
College. The Schedule itself sets out what, perhaps,
we should better call the "Scheme of Government
and the Method of Administering the College." It is
planned that the College will be governed by a Board
of Governors that would be charged with the duty of
administering the College, appointing and supervis-
ing staff, and assuming responsibility for matters of
finance. The staffing of the College is expectedat its
inception to be run by a Principal, 2 Senior Tutors,
6 Tutors, and 13 Assistant Tutors as a teaching Es-
tablishment: 1 Registrar, 2 Stenographers, 1Super-
visor, 1 Laboratory Technician, 1 Driver/Messenger
2 Cleaners, 2 Groundsmen and 1 Watchman on the
non-teaching side.

The duties of the Principal will be to administer
all the sections of the College, to report to the Min-
ister, and generally to supervise the public relations
of the College in communication with the Press, mass
media, and other external agencies. In other words,
he is, of course, the person who is ultimately re-

The Senior Tutor of each section will be re-
sponsible to the Principal for the administration of
the particular teaching section, and in addition he
would be required to prepare scheme plans, organi-
sation plans, syllabuses in consultation with his
colleagues, and would be required to perform the
function of what, I suppose, we could call "Dean to
the Faculty" if we were dealing with a University or
a University College.

The Tutors in each section will be required,
among other things, to organise the Schedule of
Teaching in their particular disciplines, to supervise
the teaching in the relevant subject areas, and to ad-
vise the Assistant Tutors on any aspect of the work.
Of course, the Tutors as well as the Senior Tutors
will be required from time to time to play whatever
part is required of them in the actual teaching of
specific subjects.


The function of the Assistant Tutors will be al-.
most entirely that of teaching in accordance with what
is assigned to them by the Senior Tutor in consulta-
tion with the appropriate Tutor.

The Registrar will be responsible to the Board
of Governors for maintaining the accounts of the Col-
lege in accordance with the provisions of the Budget
and, naturally, in accordance with the Financial Regu-
lations of Government.

The Supervisor will be responsible for the main-
tenance of buildings and grounds including supplies
of inventories, and, of course, will be in charge of
the subordinate staff.

The permanent site of the Community College
will be at "Eyrie", but it will be opened for tempor-
ary accommodation at "Sherbourne". It is hoped that
the development of the permanent site will get
under way in the near future.

The Ministry of Education estimates that the
College will cater to approximately 350 students
in the first instance, and this figure is based on the
statistical estimate of the information collected
from all the schools involved. In this statistical
estimate it was pointed out that last year 285 stu-
dents who sat the G.C.E. "O" Level examination
were successful in four or five subjects, and it was
also pointed out that this year alone 1,264 students
are writing the examination. I pointed out, of course,
earlier and I just re-emphasise this the College
is expected to cater not only to the ordinary run of
post-Fifth Form/Sixth Form pupils, but also to the
people who have already left school and would like
to resume their studies at the point at which they
had left them off.

Mr. Speaker, a separate Resolutionwill natural-
ly have to come to the House embodying the financial
proposals with respect to the cost of the Establish-
ment. It would be improper for me to propose to the
House any matter to do with finance until the House
has disposed of the principle of establishing the Col-
lege, and this is why the Bill is before the House
-now. When the House has declared its pleasure on
the Bill, an appropriate Resolution for supply will,
of course, be laid before the House.

There is one other point Iwantedto make. A few
days ago there was tremendous excitement -I believe
it was tremendous, excitement, but I had no means of
judging myself engendered by a statement made
on behalf of the Association of Teachers in Second-
ary Schools that they had some misgivings about this
Bill and, among other things, one of their mis-
givings was the enormous concentration of power
which, according to the Bill, the Minister seems to

I understand that the Minister met with a dele-
gation of the Association yesterday and, so far as I
can see I do not know, Mr. Speaker, what other res-
ervations they may have but the main reservation
which they seemed to have had, if the public state-

.ment is anything to go by, seems to have been
1.05 p.m.
I only want to make two small comments on this
point. The first one is this: It is and has always been
to me extraordinary, and I know this from personal
experience because it was only after I myself became
Minister of Education, that I, because Ihadto, made
myself aware of the Schemes of Government of the
various Grammar schools in this Island. There are
a lot of teachers, Mr. Speaker, who do not know how
the schools which they work are administered, and
this came out in the discussion yesterday morning.
For instance, when it was pointed out that one of
the fears expressed to this Bill was that teachers were
more or less at the mercy of the Minister in respect1
of their conditions of work and tenure of employment
and so on, and when reference was made to the
Schemes of Government which have been existing for
some time for a comparative study, they were as-
tonished to discover that now if you are on the staff
of Harrison College or Coleridge-Parry andyou are
on probation, Mr. Speaker, you can be dismissed with
one month's notice by the Head of that School without
any reference made either to the Governing Body or
to the Ministry or to anybody else.

If hon. members look at this Bill carefully and
I really would press that on them because it is really
interesting they would see what guarantees in this
respect the people on the staff of the Community
College have, and they would also see that the Minis -
ter, far from being the arbiter of their destinies as
they might have thought, is in truth and in fact the
Court of Appeal from the harsh or unfair or un-
warranted decision of the Board of Governors which
in any case has to take the initiative in these matters
and which is entirely responsible for the discipline
and cognate functions of the College itself,

The second point I want to make is this, and here
again I make it in the same context. Nowadays in this
House and outside of it, whenever a Bill is before us
which seems to give a Minister power, there is an
understandable but, in my view, a wrong-headed
clamour that too much power is being concentrated
in the hands of a single person, and in fairness to the
critics, I do not think they mean that they object to
the individual who happens for the time being to be
Minister; they act on the principle that the concen-
tration of power as such in a single hand is un-
warranted. There was a time in this Island when
"Governor-in-Executive Committee" quite frankly
meant "Governor", and even when it did not mean
"Governor", the concentration of power or of au-
thority was usually in the hands of a single member
of the old Executive Committee, and hon. members
of this House who were in public life long enough will
recall their own strictures twenty or thirty years
ago when they used to declaim from the housetops
that Mr. Keith Walcott was the McGuffie Kingof this
Island. They used to say this; but yet the Attorney
General, in the context of our Constitution twenty
or whatever number of years ago, had as much au-
thority and in some very definite instances more au-
thority than any Minister has now. The second thing


is that you can always tell the amount of authority
a person wields by the number of people who appear
to be afraid of him. I do not know anybody in this
Island who is afraid of any Minister, but I can re-
member how you had to whisper Mr. Keith Walcott's
name in secret, and you had to be careful whom you
were whispering it with too; so I can only guage
from a purely commonsense point of view the con-
centration of authority, how undiluted it is, if you
know the number of people who fear a person.

The contempt in which we are held by hon. mem-
bers opposite would make me believe that far from
fearing us, they laugh us to scorn. Well, you can't
have it both ways, Mr. Speaker. If you laugh hon.
members on this side to scorn, it would seem to me
that any concentration of power constitutionally in
the hands of a Minister cannot really work to the
detriment or discredit of anybody, because the peo-
ple who have to exercise it are in the view of the
people complaining about it not worth bothering
about. But this may be a facetious argument to put
up, and I would not press that aspect of it. I would
only say that the Constitution, as understand it, has
developed in such a way that there has been dele-
gation of authority from Cabinet to Minister.

There are several bits of legislation I cannot
name all of them in which the Minister now exer-
cises all the authority which was formerly exercised
by the Cabinet as a whole. The Minister of Communi-
cations has certain powers vested in him which are
not vested in the Cabinet, and for the exercise of
which he need not make any reference to the Cabinet.
The Minister of Finance, acting in his capacity as
Minister of Finance, has certain statutory and con-
stitutional powers vested in him, for the exercise of
which he need not consult the Cabinet. The Ministers
of Education, of Agriculture and of Health I am not
now referring to my colleagues; I am referringto of-
fices held all of them exercise a certain amount of
authority which has been delegated to them either by
legislation or by decision of the Cabinet itself.

There is nothing therefore to fear ina Bill which
throws upon the Minister of Education certain re-
sponsibilities, administrative and otherwise. In the
first place, any Minister of Education must adminis -
ter an Act of Parliament, which confers on him
certain powers, in the context of the policy of the
Party of which he is a member. It would be difficult
for me to imagine a Minister so feather-headed in
any country as to interpret in a purely arbitrary
manner the exercise of authority which devolves on
him in an Act of Parliament. If you say this in re-
spect of this, you would have to say this in respect
of any legislation. The same view I take now of this,
I took when I was not in Government. An Act of Par-
liament can give authority to anybody it likes. If it
gives that authority, one has to assume rightly in
most cases that that authority is exercised within a
certain context. I have never been afraid of nor have
I ever used the argument about the concentration
of power in the hands of a single Minister. If you
could allow a Colonial Governor in those days -
not without protest, it is true, but it served its time -
to have the power of life and death for a long time

over almost every aspect except the purely legis -
lative and financial powers of Parliament this has
never been in the hands of the Governor but if you
could give him in those days considerable authority
amounting even to powers to life and death over the
community, why should you have any scruples in the
changed circumstances where first of all the people
represented in Parliament are themselves elected
on the widest possible franchise, and therefore are
not only entitled to represent the point of view of the
people of the country, but are themselves from time
to time called upon to govern the country? I really
cannot see it.
1.15 p.m.

This, I know, is a strong point with hon. mem-
bers opposite the concentration of power in the
hands of a single person. I give them this for what it
is worth. If the boot were on the other foot and they
were in power, I would most probably have some
criticisms to offer about this or that aspect of a
particular matter; but on no occasion would they hear
me use the argument that I object to something merely
because it puts too much power into the hands of a
Minister. I have never used that argument. I take it
that whoever is in power has to govern, and whoever
has to govern has to govern within the context of
their declared policy. I may say this, but I do not
necessarily believe it seriously because I have
survived in a Government under them and I have
escaped; so my argument would not be that I could
not trust them with power. My argument would be that
they are as much entitled to the authority of Govern-
ment as anybody who is constitutionally elected, and
the only way that I would draw swords with them is
when I see that they were either going outside
their declared power or really acting arbitrarily
out of consonance and even against the express or
implied canons of Ministerial Government. As I say,
you can criticise this because you think that we are
doing the wrong thing. (A MEMBER: Like the re-
moval of the Mace.) When the Mace was removed,
Mr. Speaker, anyhow I will not pursue that.

Mr. SPEAKER: I doubt whether there is such a
thing as a Mace in a Community College. (Laughter)

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Yes, quite. You can argue
that you do not think that we are going far enough to
handle this problem. You can argue if you like, al-
though this would not be true, that we are not handling
the problem boldly and imaginatively. I believe you
could even argue that far from attempting educational
reforms in a piecemeal way, we should have a com-
prehensive enquiry, and I believe that some hon.
members on the other side favour this, into the
whole educational system. All right, haveyour com-
prehensive enquiry into it; but while you are en-
quiring into it, you still have to administer it. And
while you are trying to find out how the over-all
system can be improved, you still have to provide
for these 185 children or whatever the number is, who
want a Sixth Form education by September. You can
object to this on the ground that you are governed
not so much by logic as by fear, and that you appre-
hend a complete deterioration of our educational
system. Mr. Speaker, my reply to that is this. First


of all, these fears are groundless and, secondly, if
you still entertain these fears, it means that you
are not as firm in your conviction as you should be,
that by and large the educational system is a sound
one and that such improvements as it needs are real
improvements and not radical transformations. This
is how I look at it.

I cannot anticipate, nor would it be proper for
me to anticipate,, all the possible questions or ob-
jections which hon. members might ask or raise and
for which certain clarifications will be forthcoming.
I will make a note of what they say and I will answer
them when I come to reply; but I commend the Bill
to the House because, if you look at it calmly and
dispassionately, if you are disposed to pre-judge the
issue, and if you are genuinely determined to do
something for the hundreds of young people or to see
what should be done and the way in which it should
be done for the hundreds of young people, you will
come to some such conclusion. You may wish to
modify our own conception and the time to do that is
when you have the Government. (Mr. ST. JOHN:
Which will not be too longfrom now.) The hon. mem-
ber said that it will not be too long from now, but
there is many a slip between the cup and the lip.
When that time comes and until that time comes, we
will try it in our way, and when the hon. member's
time comes, he can.modify it. Even if that time were
to come, he will not hear me say that they have too
much power. Once the people have given it to them,
it is all right with me. I want them to know that the
people have given it to us and it is our policy which
we try to implement. I beg to move that this Bill be
now read a second time.

Hon. N; W. BOXILL: I beg to second that.

Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, for some consider-
able period of time in this country there has been a
dialogue going' on as to the aims and objects of the
Government in relation to this College.

Despite the assurances given by the hon. member
in the introduction of this Bill, it is positively clear
that it is the Government's policy that Sixth Forms
in the existing schools will be abolished. There is an
old saying that there is more than one way of hanging
a dog. The device which they are attempting to use
is to create this Body and attract to it all of the staff
that is necessary to keep the other schools in exis -
tence; but, Mr. Speaker, when we look at the educa-
tional needs in Barbados today, we feel that this
College is not a priority in the sense in which the
Government feels it to be a priority. We feel that
the Primary School system of education, of Technical
education, and the education in Crafts is much more
of a problem than the creation of a prestige academic
Body and from the Minister's speech, it is clear
that the Government is looking to the academic side
of this College right now, and not to the other aspects
of the College. If we were to have an analysis of the
institutions which we have now and the demands, I do
not believe that, looking at it dispassionately, one
could come up with the academic side of this College
as a great priority.
1.25 p.m.

Not so long ago in here the Hon. Minister gave
some statistics. I am quoting from memory, and if
I am wrong I would be glad if he will correct me.
The statistics were that the number of children who
passed at all the schools in Barbados in five G.C.E.
"O" Level subjects was no more than I think the
maximum for the three years 1964, 1965 and 1966
was 160.

Now, when we take that into account, it is clear
that this Government and the Hon. Minister should
do what any other Minister in any other country who
wanted the public to be aware of any change in your
educational system should do: that is, publish a White
Paper. The figures and statistics in the White Paper
would go to show that the real need in this country at
the present moment is properprovision for Primary
School education and the creation of a broader base
of subjects other than academic subjects for your
young people.

I was shocked when the Hon. Minister said that
some time later they expected to give study to other
subjects like Commerce, Technology, Agriculture
and Finance. Here are we today in this country with a
Government boasting and bragging that it is providing
a free educational system for all. Here are we today
in Barbados having a system in which, because of the
failure of the Government to provide adequate facili-
ties, private organizations can attract for a six-
months' course in secretarial science $300.00, and
these institutions have been welcomed by the other
side, and supported by the other side.

Surely, if we are going to brag and boast that our
educational system is free, one of your immediate
objectives ought to be to cater to that; but the Min-
ister says that he wants Sixth Form teaching, and
this is going to be the immediate thing.

Of course, in my opinion, if you are going to have
the criteria of five "0" Levels for entry into this
School, you will only get it by drawing away from
the other schools. I notice that the Minister did not
touch that. He did not touch upon the Government's
plans for the administration of these schools. Of
course they would not touch on that because it would
expose completely the real motive and intent to abo-
lish Sixth Forms in the other schools. Come clean;
come openly; if you feel that it is in the best interest
of education in Barbados that there should be no
Sixth Form education in these schools, come out and
say so. Argue it out on that basis. But they fear the
political consequences of that.

They fear that if they came out openly and said
that it was their intention, they would incur the wrath
of the parents of quite a number of pupils. It cannot
be denied that a number of Parent-Teachers Asso-
ciations have met at the Secondary Schools andhave
protested against any attempt to abolish the existing
Sixth Form.

What kind of material are you goingto get if you
are having these Sixth Forms still in existence with
your statistics showing that you only get a maximum


of I would be generous 175? What are you going
to be left with?

What is to happen to your other institutions which
are in existence in this country, like the Evening
Institute? The Hon. Minister cannot deny the fact
that a number of the academic subjects that it is
proposed to teach at the proposed Community College
are taught at the Evening Institute now. They are
taught at the Extra Mural Department of the U.W.I.
They cannot deny the fact also that it is possible to
make greater use of the facilities which are in exis -
tence at some of your Secondary Schools which al-
ready provide Sixth Form education, in particular
the Lodge School. When you look at the crowded con-
ditions in your Primary Schools, when you look
around and see the need for Technical education, not
only in Bridgetown but in other centres of education,
instead of devoting your energies to the immediate
provision of these facilities the Minister and the
Government have decided that this College is a

One would have thought that the Minister in in-
troducing this Bill would have fitted the College into
the existing educational scheme. I listened and I have
heard nothing as to the relationship between this body
and Your Evening Institute. Are you going to abolish
the Evening Institute when you have this? Are you
going to abolish the Technical Institute? What about
the Extra-Mural Department of the U.W.I.? I know
that you have no control over that; but the position
is that you have to pay the University large sums of
money, and part of this money is spent to administer
the Extra-Mural Department.

Is the Government going to suggest that all of
these institutions should exist parallel with this
institution? Are they suggesting that you will con-
tinue to carry on your Evening Institute and pay the
administrative costs of that, the same with the
Technical Institute and still pay the additional cost
of the administration of this College?

If the intention of the Government was to ration-
alise all these bodies under one administrative body
primarily to cater to the gaps that exist now in your
system of academic tuition, that would be an in-
stitution which should command the support of the
vast majority of people in Barbados.

But, Mr. Speaker, the more you listen to the other
side, the more you must be convinced that that is not
their conception of this College. That is definitely
not their conception.

It has been said that the Bill should never be
attacked on the basis that it gives the Minister too
much power. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not one of those
people who is afraid to give Ministers powers, be-
cause I feel that in a democratic society people must
learn that to preserve democracy there are 101 little
institutions which must thrive and flourish so as to
put pressure on those who attempt to use their
powers wrongfully.
Now, Sir, there are teachers in this country.They
have a Trade Union. They will learn that if you want

to preserve your point of view and you want to have
influence you must be militant. They will learn that
they must not expect people to take up their "fire
rage" when they themselves are supposed to be an
educated body.

They ought to be able to use and manipulate the
media of public information so as to impress their
point of view upon others. But there are a lot of
cowards in this country. They want front men. They
do not have the courage of their convictions; and if
they are going to be prepared to work under the con-
ditions set out in this Bill, it is a matter for them.

But, Sir, what we have to be careful of here is
this: we are responsible in Parliament for the purse
strings of this country, and there are features in this
Bill that empower the Minister to vary the whole
Scheme of Government of the College without refer -
ence to Parliament. That is an insult to the dignity
of this Institution.
1.35 p.m.

Here you are giving power to a Minister; you set
out, first of all, in the Bill the Scheme of Government
of the College, and it says that the Minister may by
order revoke the Scheme in the Schedule and sub-
stitute a new one. Now, Surely, there is an unan-
swerable case for an amendment to that so as to
ensure that if the Schedule is amended, Parliament
would be informed and Parliament would have the
right to express its point of view thereon. It is not a
question of giving the Minister too muchpower; it is
a question of principle whether you are going to allow
by delegating legislation, such a fundamental power
and deprive yourself of any opportunity of influencing
the exercise of the power.

Now, if the Minister felt that this was not an im-
portant matter, may I ask why is it that they found
it necessary to set out the first Scheme of Govern-
ment in a Schedule in this Bill? If you felt that this
is a matter exclusively within the province of the
Minister, why is it that you didn't say that the Min-
ister may, by Regulations, prescribe the Scheme of
Government for the College? You know that it would
be objectionable, but you set out the first Scheme,
bring it before Parliament, and then expect that we
Share to pass a Bill which empowers a Minister, by
order, to change the whole Scheme without reference
to us. That must be objectionable.

Mr. Speaker, let us get this straight. There
ought to be no misconceptions under this Bill. If
you have a spiteful Minister, he can give vent to his
spleen in this Bill. If the teachers are prepared to
work under these conditions, that is a matter for
them; it is their responsibility. The onus is not on
us; the onus is on them and it is their responsibility.
If they are going to submit themselves to appointment
under terms and conditions when they know that the
Minister has absolute power over them, that is their
business. But I would have thought, if they had any
kind of sense, that bynowtheywouldhave been mak-
ing strong representations that there must be en-
shrined somewhere the terms and conditions which
would give them a measure of security.


Do you know what is happening, Sir? Inthis war
of survival in this country, there are some people
who would sacrifice anything for one dollar. That is
the truth. You will get them in allprofessions; mat-
ters of principle mean nothing to them; all they are
interested in is the advancement of their financial
position; so they will sell their birthright for one
dollar. That is the position.

Mr. Speaker, in Committee Stage there will be a
large number of amendments which we will propose,
but it is difficult to deal with this Bill as a whole
until we have had from the Minister a clear defini-
tion of what is the conception of the Government as to
its relationship between this Institution and the other

Now, in Jamaica you have a College of Arts,
Science and Technology a polytechnic type of thing -
where, as the Minister said, you will getpeople who
want to continue their education whether on a part-
time or full-time basis -and you must have facilities
to cater for such persons. But to come in here and
say that this conception is a conception that will not
abolish in any way or interfere in any way with the
existing Sixth Form in the schools is an attempt to
fool the members on this side. It is an attempt to
mislead the public in Barbados, because whenwe look
at it from the point of viewthatthe staff of this Col-
lege will be paid more than the staff at the existing
schools, we can see the position. For this College to
have any kind of prestige, it will be necessary to try
and attract the better academic types. They can only
get them by drawing them away from our existing
schools. They are going to draw.away the staff first,
and then the pupils will follow the staff. That is the

Mr. Speaker, one would have thought that com-
mercial subjects would have been one of the first
things that would have been created in here. But the
Minister says that it is the policy that Duffs', Skin-
ners' and the other private institutions must still
continue to receive $300.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, on a point of
order. I did not say that. The hon. member is saying
that I said so, but that is not true. I made no refer-
ence to private institutions. I think, in fairness to
me, he ought to say what I have said and not what I
have not said.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, it is the obvious
intention of the Government that these schools must
continue, because, as the Hon. Minister says, later
on commercial studies, agriculture and other aspects
of the work will be dealt with, but the immediate in-
tention is that you are going to have the academic
side only. Let us get that clear. If that is not so,
I should be glad if the Hon. Minister would correct
me. I heard him say that the immediate objective is
1.45 p.m.

How are you going to achieve this objective with-
out detracting and tearing away from your existing

institutions? It is impossible and the Hon. Minister
knows that. Mr. Speaker, I feel that there ought to be
a broad measure of agreement in any country on
its educational system, and it is impossible for any-
one in this country to have this measure of agree-
ment when the real motives of the Government are
so clouded. Instead of coming forward straight and
saying exactly what the intentions are and let us
have a dialogue on that, they come forward by the
back-door method, seeking to conceal their real in-
tent. We cannot in the circumstances give the mea-
sure of support that ought to have been given to a
change in our educational system. I want to hear a
number of questions answered by the Hon. Minister
before we can make up our minds on this Bill.

In particular, the Hon. Minister should have
given us the relationship between this body and the
Evening Institute,the Technical College and the Tech-
nical School. He should have given us much more
statistical information as to the numbers. He should
have given us much more information as to the quall-
fications, for instance, that are envisaged for entry
into this College. These are vital points which are
not contained in the Bill. It is true that the Minister
can make regulations, but surely in the scheme of
things the Minister must have made up his mind al-
ready as to how he intends to exercise the large
powers granted to him in this Bill.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Speaker, all of us who toil in
the educational vineyard are very much interested in
the fate of this Bill with which we have been con-
fronted. There has been a great deal of fluttering in
the educational dove-cots as recently as this morn-
ing when there was a publication as to the allaying
of certain fears which are supposed to exist. Such
fears as existed, Mr. Speaker, do not seem to have
been entirely allayed in so far as I can find out, and
there are many questions relative to this Bill which
I hope the Hon. Minister will be good enough to
clarify for us.

Now many of us feel, Mr. Speaker, that this is.
entirely a question of priorities. The provision of
post-G.C.E. education to the minds of many of us
cannot compete with the provision for pre-G.C.E.
education in Barbados. I refer specifically to the
114 examination with which we are still inflicted, al-
though in England where this experiment was first
tried, it has come to the point where an education-
alist, no less a person than Miss Bacon, the Minister
of State for Education and Science, has saidthat 11+
is much too early an age to label children as failures.
Both psychologists and sociologists have scotched the
idea of any innate and immutable intelligence. That
is the modern concept. To label a child, therefore,
as an educational reject at the age of 11 is repugnant
to the sense of any thinking person, and that is what
we are suffering from in Barbados today.

Currently the minds of many persons are exer-
cised as to what they are to do with those children
who have so recently been labelled as failures by a
benign Government. We are told that over 10,000 of
these children wrote the 11 examination, and that


there were some 700 places where those who re-
ceived the accolade of success,however determined,
could be deposited for their education. That would
mean, Mr. Speaker, that over 9,000 of these children
would have to be regarded as failures or as educa-
tional rejects. You may picture to yourself the feel-
ings of the children themselves and of the members
of their immediate families whenthey see withdrawn
from their clutching fingers the academic prizes
which this community has to offer, restrictedthough
they may be. Many of us feel that that is a question
which ought to engage the attention of Government
to the exclusion of any academic appendages such as
a Community College, which indeed might come later
in another form, or which, Mr. Speaker, might be
changed altogether, this being a period of flux and

Academically, Mr. Speaker, as you must be
aware, as soon as a child learns that twelve pen-
nies make a shilling, we have to tell him not to
take that too seriously because it may soon be ten,
that the decimal coinage is about to come in. On the
atomic front, where formerly the accent used to be
on fission,we are told it has now been changed to
fusion, and so on and so on in various forms of
learning. We are told too, Mr. Speaker, that the
great Francis Bacon who felt that knowledge should
be allowed in everyone of its particulars as far as
possible didhe exist inthis day, what he knew would
qualify him perhaps for a lower Fourth Form in any
good school. So has knowledge extended its bounda-
ries that many a child looks askance in these days
at his father or mother when they attempt to make
suggestions academically, when the child knows only
too well how restricted is his parents' education in
this day of modern concepts and of swift change.

We feel, therefore, Mr. Speaker, that what is
needed in our small community is a thorough inves -
tigation of our educational system, and not the addi-
tion of a single appendage which on further scrutiny
we might be able to provide good alternatives for.
For instance, Mr. Speaker, we have noticed recently
that there was an addition of some fourteen young
people last term in the Sixth Form at Combermere
School. Eleven of these were from St. Michael's
Girls' School, two from the Coleridge-Parry and one
from the Alleyne School; and these fourteen were
added to the Combermere School roll without any se -
rious dislocation, if dislocation there was at all.
1.55 p.m.

The Lodge School could have provided even more
space and probably have Sixth Forms, had they been
called upon to do so. It is common knowledge that
there is a Sixth Form Science Laboratory at Queen's
College which has never been called into use purely
because of the difficulties of staffing. Why then
should we attempt, at this stage, to bring into being
another educational body when we have not made full
use or have not triedto expand the educational units
which we have at our disposal presently? We,on this
side, at least this side of this side, do feel that there
is agreatneedandurgency for a thorough investi-
gation into the education system of Barbados. There
are so many anomalies present that are calling aloud

for redress for instance, the Minister was good
enough to mention just now that he considered twenty-
two pupils to a teacher to be the correct allocation
in this day if pupils are to progress; yet in the face
of that announcement, the Minister could hardly
deny that his Government provides, in the case of
Independent Schools, one teacher for every two
hundred pupils. How is it possible to square that?
If twenty-two to one is considered to be the correct
teacher-pupil relation, how then can the Minister
recommend and maintain a system of two hundred
to one in the Independent Schools where thousands
of the pupils of this Community are forced to get
all the education which they will ever get? Surely,
there must be something wrong about that. Mr.
Speaker, the fact that full use has not been made
of existing facilities in our First and Second Grade
Schools is a strong argument against the creation of
this Community College, except, as some people
fear, that is in line with what has been called con-
temporary egalitarianism.


Mr. Speaker, may I, at this stage, move the
suspension of the Sitting for three quarters of an
hour, with Your Honour's assent to speak again?

Mr. HINDS: I beg to second that.

The question that this sitting be now suspended for three
quarters of an hour was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER suspended the sitting accor-
2.00 p.m.

On re-assembling,


Mr. SPEAKER: It happened this morning when
Notices were being given, that the hon. senior mem-
ber for St. James, in whose name a motion appeared
on the Order Paper, was absent. He arrived a minute
or two afterwards and I give him permission now,
if he thinks fit, to give his Notice at this stage.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, I wish to apologise
for my late arrival and I thank you for your per-
mission. I now beg to give notice of the following

WHEREAS the sum of 50 cents payable in some
parishes of this Island per week as public assistance
is so out of keeping with the ever-increasing cost of
living as to make it unrealistic and not commensurate
with the needs of the poor in the Island;

AND WHEREAS it is deemed expedient that the
name "public assistance" should be changed to that
of "national assistance."

BE IT RESOLVED that this House requests the
Government to take the necessary steps (a) to in-


crease the amount payable in all parishes forpublic
assistance to a minimum amount of $3.00 weekly
the said payments be made by the Central Govern-
ment acting through the Interim Local Government
Commissioner; and (b) to change the name "public
assistance" to that of "national assistance."


Mr. SPEAKER: When the Sittingwas suspended,
the hon. junior member for Bridgetown was address -
ing the House. He may now resume.

Mr. LYNCH: I thank you, Mr. Speaker. Iwas on
the hardy annual of the eleven plus examination to
which I will return, hoping to be able to cling to its
branches a while longer. Every year in this com-
munity, Mr. Speaker, there are many thousands of
children who are denied access to secondary educa-
tion. This is all because of the Government's de-
clared policy of free secondary education which is a
standing joke in the community when it is remembered
that the school places which the Government is able
to allocate to aspirants for this free secondary edu -
cation is some five thousand places, while there are
over twelve thousand children in the Independent
Schools which are registered, while there are
some forty-five so-called schools, some drawing-
room or dame schools, which are not yet dignified
by registration. It is clear then that there are many
thousands of the school age children in our community
who are forced into these establishments and for
whom little or no provision is made.
2.50 p.m.

The point I was making, Mr. Speaker, is that to
educate people at Harrison College the average cost
is $460.00 per head. Pupils can be sent to any of the
Independent Schools which are registeredand recog-
nised by the Government. If they win a Government
bursary, the Government pays $75.00 a year for
these pupils.

It is clear then, Mr. Speaker, how much money
is saved perheadoneachofthose who can be shunted
from private schools. In a year like this when from
over 9,000 pupils although I would say that the
performance this year was very much better than is
the usual experience at this 11 plus stage the Gov-
ernment has still some 700 places to be allocated
to over 10,600 children who sat this examination.

If, therefore, the Minister responsible were to
look at this in a constructive spirit, Mr. Speaker, he
can quite clearly see that the situation could be eased
considerably by sending some of these large masses
of rejects to those schools which can accommodate

I am told that there are certain Private Second-
ary Schools which have 200 or more places available
for pupils for the coming term. It is felt in some
quarters that nearly 9,000 of these pupils 9,900
actually, Mr. Speaker were madeto fail this exam-
ination because the Government itself had failed in
providing the necessary physical accommodation for

This accusation would be hard to refute. Indeed
there has been little effort made, Mr. Speaker, to
refute this grave accusation.

Now I turn to another point the lack of con-
sistency in Government arrangements for providing
education for the young people in the Community.
As you are well aware, there are single sex schools
in this community. There is co-education at the
Alleyne School in St. Andrew, but no one is quite sure
as to what is the Government's decision as to how
pupils will be placed in schools of varying types in
the future.

We take it for granted that in this proposed Com-
munity College there will be a co-educational setup.
This is taken for granted; but you will notice also,
Mr. Speaker, that in the neighboring island of
Trinidad there is a move on foot to make as many
as possible of the educational establishments there
co-educational because it is said that co-educational
schools raise the status of the women of Trinidad.

It is argued, and successfully argued, that when-
ever segregation of the sexes is practised ineduca-
tion, the women have a continuing law status for the
simple reason that they are taught by other women
who have been educated under a system where they
did not receive the benefit of tuition from the best
brains in the community which invariably in certain
subjects such as Science and Mathematics are men,
never mind what the ladies may think. Therefore
there is a continuing low status conferred on the wo -
men of a community which is denied co-education,

It is felt, therefore, that in these days when our
women folk are showing so great a distinction in
academic and other spheres that we in Barbados
should follow in the train of many of the countries
of the civilised world and introduce co-education
in this community.

It will not have escaped your attention, Mr.
Speaker, that the present incumbent of the Ministry
of State for Education and Science is a lady, Miss
Alice Bacon. You will also have noticed at least
the proponent of this scheme will have noticed that
the President of the Oxford Union is also for the
first time a lady a post which the Minister him-
self enjoyed at one time with great distinction. Also
in the West Indian community we have had recently
the appointment of a lady to the Governorship of

Why is it that we should subscribe to a system
which at the moment ensures the continuing low
status of women? It will be argued that our premier
Girls' School has had some success recently; but it
might well be that lastyear should be regarded as an
annus mirabilis, which might not be repeated year
after year.

It is high time that Government declares its
policy for education, whether it is going to have
single sex schools or co-educational schools. It is
not yet clear in as much as we have already the Al-
leyne School as a co-educational school, and having


heard nothing to the contrary, I believe that this
Community College will be co-educational.

It is not yet quite certain, Mr. Speaker, whether
there is going to be an amalgamation of the various
educational services under the aegis of this newly
projected Community College. It is felt by many
who have the interest of Barbados at heart that the
Trades Training Centre should be expanded and made
to serve the needs of the community to its fullest

So many of our young people went abroad for-
merly, Mr. Speaker, and made a good impression
as "B" Class mechanics and industrial workers
and in other spheres, that we do feel that they ought
to be equipped here before leaving so that if they
went to one of the metropolitan countries they might
emigrate as "A" Class workers whether they join
the engineering or some other industrial form of

This can be done right here in Barbados by get-
ting down qualified staff and providing the necessary
equipment so that these young people might be taught
and trained and bade go forth.
3.00 p.m.

It has been found that there is a great shortage
of technicians, and some effort, at least, must be
made to correct this sad state of affairs. Even local
industry is not serviced by the provision of young
people who are turned out year after year by our
apology for what is locally called "Trades Training"
We are hoping that the Minister will be good enough
to give us some pronouncement as to what is Gov-
ernment's policy in this regard.

He has already spoken on the section about com -
mercial education, and there was some disappoint-
ment felt in my own mind, if I may say so, when he
said that very soon some effort would be made to
provide more commercial training.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to be misunder-
stood. I have no attacks to make upon the Ministers -
neither the one who drewup the Bill, nor the one who
introduced it. I myself have had the benefit of the
services of both of them in my own establishment
and for that I am very grateful to them both. I always
try to get around me people of some ability, and I
hand them this compliment unasked. I refer to both
of the Ministers.

We have in Barbados no image of greatness, but
some of us do try to have people employed so that
the pupils might have the benefit of association with
people more gifted than themselves. This is a prin-
ciple which I have always employed. I have no attack
to make on the Minister, but I would like to compli-
ment him on his adroitness on his latest interview
in either bludgeoning or badgering into agreement
those representatives of a certain teaching body who
waited upon him. I do not know what method he adopted
but these gentlemen seem to have been forced into
some agreement. Whether this agreement which they

profess will be honoured by the body which they
represented is a matter for future decision.

I am told, Mr. Speaker, that this Association of
Teachers has some 40-odd members in its ranks,
but the Organisation itself has over 200 members.
Now whether the three who waited on the Prime
Minister will be considered fully representative of
some 200 people is a matter which the Minister must
decide for himself. We are told, too, Mr. Speaker, that
the threat was made that, if these compliants had not
agreed that they would take part in this joint state-
ment, a eucracy would have been issued in which
their agreement would have been mentioned as a ploy
which had been obtained by the Minister himself.
Whether this is so or not, I am sure the Hon.
Minister, the Leader of the House, will reassure
us when he comes to speak later on.

Now, there is an accusation that the proposer
of the Bill, who is given such wide and flowing powers
here, is sometimes a bit ham-fisted. Whether this is
so or not I do not know, because I have never known
him in that capacity; but if this has been his approach,
Mr. Speaker, perhaps it is time that he reconsiders
the matter and he should try to encourage the co-
operation of those professional bodies without whose
assistance he would not be able to have that success
at which, I am sure, he is aiming.

There are several disturbing Clauses, not to
mention phrases, in the Bill. Things like the dis-
missal, to take one at random, of the Principal.
"The Principal may with the prior approval of the
Minister be dismissed by the Board subject to the
following conditions," etc. There you see, Mr.
Speaker, we have the strange anomaly of the Minister
approving beforehand of the dismissal of this im-
portant employee, which agreement he must first
convey to some member or members of the Board
before they can successfully moot that this man be
dismissed. I dare say that in good Russian tradition
he would also be allowed to confess before taking his
leave of the Department.

Now, Mr. Speaker, those things are very dis-
turbing in any democratic Assembly: people being
dismissed with the prior approval of other people;
yet we are told in some recentpublication that the
security of tenure of the employees of this Board
is a model to be aimed at by those who now work
in Government-aided schools. This does not set
squarely with some of the provisions in the Bill,
because we read, to our considerable unease, that
the Minister may from time to time, by order,
amend the provisions of the Schedule. What is the
point of putting up provisions and duly passing them
here, Mr. Speaker, before this body, which is some-
times considered an august legislative body, when
these same provisions may from time to time, by
order, be amended by the Minister? It seems to me
the perpetuation of a nonsense, Mr. Speaker, and
you with your keen, legal brain, I am sure, will
agree with me, at least, on this point.

The definition of the College itself is open to
question. It can vary between that of a Primary


School or a Post-Graduate Organisation. There is
a very wide range, or wide gamut, that this Or-
ganisation might run, and we would like to have a
clearer and more restricted definition of its duties,
despite the objects and reasons set out here. It would
seem to some of us as though this were more win-
dow dressing than a definite contribution to the edu-
cational future of the Island of Barbados.

This academic appendage which might well be
locked off, Mr. Speaker, when the time comes and
come it must for a full investigation into the edu-
cational system of this Island we should not rush
into it without mature thought.
3.10 p.m.

I am hoping, Mr. Speaker, to receive assur-
ances from the Hon. Introducer of the Bill that the
other priorities which I have mentioned will occupy
the attention of the Minister of Education before he
proceeds further with this Bill.

I will with your permission reiterate the whole
cogent points which I would like the Minister to pass
on to his colleague. First of all, that this business
of 11 plus examination should be allowed to die a
natural death. Also, Mr. Speaker, that the teacher-
pupil ratio be improved in those schools which are
forced to receive thousands upon thousands of the
school age children of this Island. The Minister men-
tioned the ratio of twenty-two to one, but I am told,
Mr. Speaker, that eight to one in Science is nearer
the modern concept, and twelve or fourteen to one
in Arts subjects. The Minister mentioned twenty -two
but it is within his knowledge that we of the Inde -
pendent Schools are given one teacher for every two
hundred children. How does he square this? It seems
that nothing is cared about the pupils in the Inde-
pendent Schools, who are the children also of tax-
payers, by giving a teacher for every two hundred
children, while the Minister knows full well and has
indeed declared that he thought that twenty-two to
one was nearer to the scientific teacher-pupil ratio.
I would like him to draw that to the attention of his

This Bill, Mr. Speaker, smacks of some contact
with the infamous Allen Bill, as it has been called,
of Jamaica a Bill which is put forward by a Minis-
ter of Education who does not enjoy the confidence
of his teachers in the Island of Jamaica and it does
seem as if large sections of this Bill have been taken
from the Jamaica pattern, and it does not meet with
the approval of those of us who have had the oppor-
tunity to study it. Even the usual conformist mutes,
Mr. Speaker, who are employed by the Department
of Education have been heard to express some dis -
agreement, if not distress, at the provisions of the
Bill, and we know that there are many.

The professional body which has been bold
enough to mention its objections to some of the pro-
visions of the Bill, Mr. Speaker, has been bitterly
denounced by some of those who sit on Ministerial
benches; but we do hope that they will be courageous
enough to stand up for their convictions, bearing in

mind at the same time that they will be doing good
to the Island of Barbados, and not only making their
own professional body one to be respected in the com-
munity. It is usual nowadays, Mr. Speaker, to ap-
point Advisory Bodies when organizations such as
this are to be set up. We are told that one was ap-
pointed in this case, but it has not been consulted
latterly, indeed not for months. When the Bill was
being drafted, when the time came for it to be put
down on paper, several members of the Body said
they had not been consulted nor even made aware of
some of these controversial provisions of this Bill.
That is not the way, Mr. Speaker, Isuggest, that the
co-operation and support of any professional body
can be obtained, and no measure such as this can be
successful unless it has 100 per cent co-operation
and support from the professional body which has to
put into action the suggestions made for the govern-
ance of this new institution.

We are told by the Introducer that this new in-
stitution was going to be more commodious and more
economical. Whether it is going to be more com-
modious or no, Mr. Speaker, nobody in the Island of
Barbados can know, because we are told that the pre -
fab structures are still on some London wharf, They
have not yet been entrusted to the ship which is to
bring them hither. So whether or not this school is
going to be more commodious is difficult to know.
Whether it is going to be more economical, Mr.
Speaker, is also a matter of concern to us, because
how can you encourage teachers away from their
present occupations unless you pay them more money
to become employees of this new Community College
where the security of tenure can alter from day to
day, according to the whims and caprices of the
Minister in charge? We are also exercised in mind,
Mr. Speaker, as to the fate of those 500 children who
are to be taken in this year at the Springer Memorial
School. This is the fifth year of the existence of that
school, and there was a promise made that every
five years 500 children would be taken in. We have
not seen any physical accommodation provided for
this new influx, and Mr. Speaker, we are wondering
whether they are to hover like Mahomet's coffinbe-
tween heaven and earth until some earthly construc-
tion is made to accommodate them. Nothing has so
far been done and it is impossible in Barbados to
build a school to accommodate 500 pupils without
somebody knowing about it.

These are things, Mr. Speaker, which concern
us and about which we are very much disturbed in
mind at the present moment,hoping to have some re-
lief when the Minister in charge gets to his feet. I
notice he is not now present, but I hope he is within
ear-shot at least. There are several of the provisions
of this Bill which are repugnant also which I will
discuss at greater length when the Bill comes to
Committee stage. Some are repugnant to the whole
idea of corporate bodies; others are repugnant to
the idea which we have been given of free secondary
education or even free post-secondary education, Mr.
Speaker; but this we will come to later.

An example of hasty drafting, Mr. Speaker, which
struck me is that no provision is made in this Bill


as to how a staff member, short of assaulting the
Principal, might well resign. There are no means
of easy, legal withdrawal from working in this
school. We are told how he might be dismissed, but
I am sure it was just a case of hasty drafting that
no provision is made as to how he might have an
honourable discharge as they do in the Army, how he
might resign from this body legally and with his
reputation intact. Provision is made as to how his
appointment may be terminated by the Principal; as
to how he may leave quietly and legally, there is no
such provision. We are hoping that the Minister
will be good enough to give us some information on
this point.

And so, Mr. Speaker, as there are many other
members who are waiting to put forward their views,
I will say in conclusionthat not am I so much against
the idea of a Community College as I am against
the timing, because I do feel that there are so many
I hate to use the word "prior", it is used so much
in this commitments much more forceful thathave
to be attended to in this community, that this could
well be taken care of by an expansion of the services
that presently exist in our First Grade Schools such
as the elimination of the 11 plus examination, and the
proper education of the 12,000 or more pupils who
are forced into our Independent Schools. These things
are to my mind, Mr. Speaker, much more cogent and
urgent than a Community College at this time.
3.20 p.m.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter of ed-
ucation something which is very far-reaching es-
pecially today. I am to say that it does not take
either an educationalist or a lawyer to see the
lack of wisdom in proceeding with such a Bill at this
stage. In our Manifesto in 1966...... (Mr. HOPPIN:
In our Manifesto?) I mean the Barbados Labour
Party's Manifesto, we set out our position clearly,
and we urged that there was the necessity to appoint
a high-powered commission to enquire into education
generally, more so with a view to producing an in-
tegrated system thereof; but we still feel that a matter
such as this should be approached on a scientific
basis. We strongly urge that, in the absence of a
White Paper on education, this Bill which seeks to
make a mockery of the long-promised 1962 Educa-
tion Act, offers the nation a sort of piece-meal ap-
proach to a matter of very, very vital importance
indeed. If we are to approach this matter in the way
in which we should approach it, we need to look no
farther than straight in the mouth, if we can do that,
of the Minister of Education, because it is he who
has told the public, it is he who has told the nation
that our educational system needs strengthening at
the base. Those are the words of the Minister of Edu-
cation today. Undoubtedly, Sir, the Minister must
know in short, he has learnt his Euclid and he
would have passed the pons asinorum and, as he
said, he would know that you cannot strengthen the
base, by providing a superstructure at the apex. That
is our contention.

Mr. Speaker, if the Minister really wanted to
strengthen the educational system at the base, he

had it all before him; he had quite clearly and un-
mistakably the path along which he could proceed.
We learnt from the introducer of this Bill that tem-
porary accommodation will be provided at "Sher-
bourne" for this Community College, but it has been
said all along that the Community College will be
established permanently at "Eyrie". If the Minister
wanted to strengthen the educational system at the
base, he could easily have taken a look presently at
our Comprehensive Schools, and I mention at this
stage the St. Leonard's Comprehensive School. There
you will find that there is a shift system in operation.
It has been so from since, I think, some time like
1962, and in that shift system children are being
robbed the people's children are being robbed of
educational instruction each school day in each school
year. Now there is a system which they call the "A"
stream system. That provides education for children
between the thirteen to sixteen age group, and their
class goes on from some time like 9 o'clock in the
morning until 3 o'clock in the afternoon. That is the
thirteen to sixteen age group.
3.30 p.m.

Those children are children who are beingpre-
pared for the G.C.E. and the L.C.C. examinations;
but then there are the "B" stream and "C" Stream
who are getting half day instruction each day two
shifts that is all they receive; andone must bear in
mind that these are the children who are not rated
as being as intelligent as the children inthe 13 to 16
age group so that one would say that the system needs
strengthening at the base.

Consideration ought to be given'to those children
of the more tender ages; but the Minister does not
proceed to do that. What should the Minister have
done, Mr. Speaker? He ought to have urged upon his
Government the necessity for creating or establish-
ing as many Day Nurseries as are possible so as to
make it convenient and ease the situation, so to
speak, for the poor parents and children.

If there were Day Nurseries to which parents
could send their younger children, it would help
parents to make better provisions for their other
children attending these various schools. I say this,
that the system at Richmond School, apart from deny-
ing children of the education which it is the Gov-
ernment's duty to provide them with, the shift system
is ruining the health of teachers and is creating gen-
eral dissatisfaction amongst those who are engaged

I am sure that the hon. introducer of this Bill
would not attempt in any respect to deny this; but the
Minister could have then done a lot to improve the
facilities at our Primary Schools, and improve the
facilities at the existing Comprehensive Schools and
at the Secondary Schools, and so he would then have
strengthened the base.

He would have gone to the Secondary Schools
presently existing and improved the facilities there.
Then he would be buttressing the middle by providing
more school places in the Primary and Secondary


schools and in the Senior Division there are 46
schools with Senior Divisions these are some of
the important things that the Minister has in his
hands to do.

In these schools with Senior Departments, and in
these Comprehensive Schools the Minister could
have urged upon his Government the necessity of
increasing the age at which these children can re-
main in school up to 18. He would then have but-
tressed the middle, and having performed such a feat
he could then set about adorning the apex, the Poly-
technic, the Community College, the Junior Sixth
Form College or whatever he likes to call it.

But, Mr. Speaker, he does not proceedtodo any
of these things. They are not his concern. We are
saying here and now that it is mere political ex-
pediency with the hon. introducer of this Bill. That
is all that he has offered in support of this Bill today.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we know the Leader of this
House. We know his command of the English Lan-
guage. We know that he knows the use of words; but
believe me, Sir, I was somewhat aghast when I saw
the half-hearted approach in introducing this Bill.
For one who has himself had the experience, the
privilege and honour of being Minister of Education,
one who knows the benefit of being educated, we had
been looking forward to a much more virile exposi-
tion in support of this Bill from the hon. mover; but
it has not been forthcoming, and we do not expect it
to be forthcoming even when he winds up.

But bear this in mind, Sir, that we do not con-
sider a Community College at this time ranking any-
where near being in the priorities in things
educational at all. This is the question. "A" Level
instruction has been given much support by the Hon.
Leader of the House. He sets about to give some
stress to the post-Fifth Form and he also mentioned
post-Sixth Form.

Now, we do not know, because it rests solely
in the bosom of the Minister, to determine what
qualifications will permit one to enter the Community
College. In other words, the Minister, if this Bill is
passed in its present form, can determine and can
apply his political yardstick to a matter of education,
and the child he favours or the group that he does
favour might have to produce one set of qualifications
and another child or group might be asked to pro -
duce another set of qualifications.

In other words, this Bill as it stands at the mo-
ment gives the Minister of Education a licence to do
what he likes in a matter of this sort.

We cannot, Mr. Speaker, support this Bill or any
Bill seeking to adorn a Minister with such power; and
when we hear the Leader of the House make mention
as to fears of giving power this place and laying
power the next, when we hear so much talk about
power we on this side of the House have got to be
very careful that we do not at any stage give the ap-

pearance of supporting anything in this island that
one may term young power.
3.40 p.m.

We have to steer very clear of the thing called
"Young Power". This Bill is a "Young Power" Bill,
and we have to steer clear of it.

Now, Mr. Speaker, we would lookto the Minister
taking some thought and giving some consideration
to that army of boys and girls who leave the Primary
Schools, ti Senior Department Schools and the Com-
prehensive Schools at the age of 14. That is what we
really thought the Minister would have been paying
some attention to. The children who have to leave
school at the age of 14 do nothave qualifications for
entering our Private Secondary Schools, In truth and
in fact, they cannot, as we know, get into the Govern-
ment Secondary Schools because they have passed
that stage.

The Common Entrance Examination that you have
heard so much about, Mr. Speaker, and its present
retention, when in truth and in fact there are so few
school places in the Government Secondary Schools,
in the realm of being dangerous to this community,
It is unfair and it is disastrous to this young Nation,
maybe, Mr. Speaker, because there are so few
school places in the Government Secondary Schools.
All of these things, Mr. Speaker, one would have
thought that a Minister introducing a Bill of this sort
would have been thinking about to cater to such chil -
dren. We see them, Sir.

You must know, Mr. Speaker, what has befallen
many a 14-year old boy or girl through having left
school with, perhaps, a smattering of education. We
know that there is not every child who is an early
learner you will find some late developers. In our
midst today we have seen some examples, There are
some children who were superanuated from some of
our schools here; they have gone abroad andenrolled
at Institutions and today they are professional men.
It just happens that all of us cannot catch up, so to
speak, between the ages of 11, 12, 13 and nearing 14.
But you know, Sir, what has been the lot of those
children who have to leave school at the age of 14
and roam the streets. The Government has done
nothing for them, and it would appear that it intends
to do absolutely nothing to relieve such boys and girls
of their plight. The Government has a Bursary sys-
tem, but how does it operate? I challenge the Leader
of this House to explain to this honourable House how
the present Bursary system operates in any trade
whatsoever. If it can be said that it is of advantage
to, I would say, 50 children in the whole Nation in
any one year or in any three-year period, I would be
glad to know. The present Bursary system is a farce.

Now, Sir, the staffing of the Community College.
It is, we feel, to be staffed by whole-time as well as
part-time people. As a matter of fact, it ought to be,
and any such institution ought to make provision not
only for day time classes, but for evening classes,
and possibly night classes as well. In other words,


it must prove itself to be an institution for adult edu-

If it is felt that the Community College is to be-
gin functioning in September, let us for a single
moment ask ourselves this question: This is now
mid-July; the provisions in this Bill perpetuates a
system which I shall go into later, but that system
of having First Grade, Second Grade and so on p.rd
placing our children according to such a grading is in
itself very, very degrading. One thing is that the edu-
cational level of the Community College has really
not been defined, but advance publicity seems to
make us believe that it will be at Sixth Form level
with a wider range of subjects than are presently
taught at the four or more schools which have a
SIxth Form. But, Sir, there is atthis point the ques-
tion of conflict.
3.50 p.m.

We have heard the Minister in introducing this
Bill say what the Minister of Education did not say,
and what he would not say in the case of the Com-
munity College, but it is in writing in a speech de-
livered by the same Minister that he would not abolish
the present Sixth Forms. The Head of the Government,
the Prime Minister, on this occasion made another
speech in which he said that the present Sixth Forms
will wither away, evidently like cane blades. If that
is the case, whom must we believe at this stage?
Sir, our present system is an old established
one with respect to the grading of these schools, and
the Education Act of 1878 designated Harrison Col-
lege and Lodge School as First Grade Schools. In
1879 the former Central Middle School was re-
named "Combermere" and it was designated a
Second Grade School. Two years later you had the
Alleyne School, Coleridge School and then the Parry
School which were also designated as Second Grade
schools. In 1883 Queen's College was opened and
was graded as a First Grade school. In 1894 there
was the Alexandra School which was designated a
Second Grade School. In 1906 the Christ Church
Foundation Boys' was added to the list as a Secondary
School. In 1926 St. Michael's Girls' was established
as a Second Grade school, and in 1928 the Christ
Church Foundation Girls'.
Now, Sir, our system of education was subject
to an investigation around 1932 by Commissioners
Mr. Mayhew and Mr. F. C. Marriott. That Commis -
sion was appointed by the Secretary of State, and
reporting in 1933 the Commissioners recommended
that Barbados should have a Director of Education,
and improved facilities for Teacher Training. Ever
since 1912 until another institution took its place, the
Rawle Training Institute was charged with that re-
sponsibility. Now, Mr. Speaker, if we turn to page
2 of the Bill, we will see that this Community Col-
lege proposes to provide a place of education offering
instruction in Agriculture, Commerce, Fine Arts,
Liberal Arts, Science, Technology and any other such
fields as the Minister may from time to time deter-
Now Mr. Speaker, let us for a single moment look
at our present agricultural set-up. Any boy attending

a Primary School in this Island will tell the Minister
of Education that there is a three year theoretical
and practical course in school gardening, and hon.
members will recall the days when Mr. Halcrowand
Dr. McIntosh used to visit the schools in the com-
pany of Inspectors, and some of us must remember
Mr. Tom Phillips, our former Agricultural Instruc-
tor, going from school to school; and we saw at our
Annual Agricultural Exhibition held at Queen's Park,
and in some earlier years at some of our then in-
stitutions of learning and on the various estates on
the Island where boys did what was called practical
demonstrations. We recall, Sir, the lovely onions,
English potatoes, carrots and other vegetables which
were grown in the school gardens. We remember that
there were names of Headmasters which kept ringing
out when prizes were being distributed at Exhibition
time. Some of those names cannot depart from us
readily, and we can say that when the present Gov-
ernment took office, it was envisaged that the teach-
ing of agricultural science would have been engaged
in full scale at the Alleyne School in St. Andrew.
There was a Director of Education here, Major
Glindon Reed, who in 1949 wrote that he looked
forward to the day when agriculture would be taught
in all our Secondary Schools, and that those schools
would be offering three types of Secondary Education.
4.00 p.m.

He listed his types as academic, technical and
modern. Now, Sir, Agricultural Science was included
at the academic level as well as the modern level,
and would have been taught at Harrison College,
Lodge School and Queen's College. In other words,
as was the status of things in those days in 1949, we
would see at these three First Grade Schools pro-
vision was made to teach Agricultural Science to the
classes at the top, so to speak, and at the modern
level to the masses at, let us say, the West St.
Joseph, Princess Margaret and like schools.

Mr. Speaker, let us turn to the next item Com-
merce. Courses are already provided at Combermere
school, St. Michael's Girls' School, the Alexandra
School and at St. Leonard's School and wherever
boys and girls are prepared for the L.C.C. examina-
tions. That is in the field of Commerce; but we come
now to the Fine Arts. You see, Sir, I am just laying
the foundation to show what this Government came
and found and had ample opportunities to expand or
extend or build upon. In other words, here was a base
which could have been strenghtened. Let us go to the
Fine Arts. Non-University level is what the Com-
munity College is expected to strive after. You will
find that Literature, Drawing and Painting, Music,
Drama all of those subjects are being taught in our
present Secondary Schools. Some schools have mas-
ter teachers in Music. Combermere School, for in-
stance, has the famous violinist and other schools
as well, and there is the Evening Institute which is
still willing to offer Continuation Classes; and re-
member that entrance to the College of Arts and
Science requires a person to hold five "O" level
subjects, but under the present set-up, it is for the
Minister of Education to determine whether some
people must have five "O" level subjects to get into


the Community College in other words, the same
requirements as at the College of Arts and Sciences
at Cave Hill. Let us ask ourselves, if there is a
possibility of the Minister of Education demanding
the same requirements for the Community College
as are now asked by the College of Arts and Science,
whether it would not pay a person better to enter
the College of Arts and Science, do a four-year
course and graduate with a degree, or to do what we
believe is going to be a two-year course at the Com-
munity College and graduate with something called
the post-"O" level, whatever that really means.

Mr. Speaker, there is the conflict, and I sup-
pose we are to believe that the Community College
is going to offer two-year courses. How can we ex-
pect the College to show that, in any respect, it is
entitled to be called a Community College? For to
build a community, what we must find is that by the
end of, two years when it is to be taken into. con-
sideration that children taking a particular course
are not likely to come readily into contact with
children who are taking another course, because
this Community College is going to be offering
Agriculture, Commerce, Fine Arts, Liberal Arts,
Science, Technology and what not but I am going
to give it to the Minister this evening free, gratis
and for nothing what we, on this side, feel and know
ought to be the functions of a Community College.
You will find that there again, until it is known what
are going to be the academic requirements, because
we have got to stress academic requirements since
all the Community College is going to do at this stage
is to compete with existing Institutions at the aca-
demic level. That is all it is going to do. It would
not be geared for anything more.

Sir, as I was saying earlier, this is mid-July.
It is going to draw on the Staffs of existing Institu-
tions because the. Bill proudly presents or holds out
better conditions for Staff than are at present ob-
taining in our Secondary Schools here. You will find
that when Harrison College, Queen's College, Lodge
School, Coleridge-Parry School, Alleyne, Alexandra
and Foundation Boys' and Girls' Schools are re-
opened in September, if the Community College is to
be functioning from September, you will find that
when these other schools are re-opened, they will
not have had the opportunity of finding replacements
for Staff which would have been taken away by the
Community College. No doubt, there are no two ways
about it; here is a case where this Institution is
merely being set up, and the Minister means to see
and do all that he possibly can to see that it thrives
and flourishes and, in truth and in fact, once the
Community College is going to flourish, he cares not
whether all the other educational Institutions in this
Island were to wither like cane blades. One would
expect that the Staffs of he present Institutions, if
they are going to be recruited to this Community
College, would have to give a term's notice in some
4.10 p.m.

We understand that applications have been made
for posts that do not exist at the Community College.

We do not know if any of these applications came
from, I would say, the three members of the Associa-
tion of Assistant Teachers. I propose to keep this
debate on the highest level possible, but Icannot keep
it there unless I draw it to the attention of all the
members of the Association of the extremely trea-
cherous and dangerous people like Earl Glasgow and
Arden Clarke.

From what I can gather, a lady, Mrs. Skeete,
said that a trick has been played on her, but, Mr.
Speaker, what must we expect? After the Association
met on Saturday and issued a release, what do you
find? Spineless jelly fish crawling up on Monday mor-
ning in the Minister's Office. What does he do? The
Minister called them. He telephoned Arden Clarke
and he then got hold of Glasgow. We know Glasgow's
position very well.

On Saturday I warned the members of the Asso-
ciation to beware of Glasgow, and in a matter of
hours it proved true. As I was saying, we know
Glasgow well. He is an arch-Dem. He got up at
Massiah. Street this is the kind of pride in him as
a Master at Lodge School and dragged away the
microphone from a political candidate who was op-
posing his Prime Minister. We understand thathe is
still indebted to Mr. Allder who got the job for him.

What do you find now? They are so dangerous -
these three teachers who crawled up to the Minis -
ter's office that they have no right to be amongst
the other members of the Association; and even in
the schools in which they work their pupils have
cause to be afraid of them. You cannot trust them.

We know Arden Clarke. We know that a lot has
gone on in this matter. We even know that the Minis-
ter had been written to and invited to attend and ad-
dress the Teachers' Body on Saturday morning, and
he wrote back accepting. We also know that the Head-
master of Combermere held a meeting with his staff
on Friday, and he talked to them like a man. He
warned them to beware of this Bill.

Mr. SPEAKER: I will resume the Chair in less
than two minutes.
Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair,

Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
Mr. HINDS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I want to bring
to attention this matter of the actions of these three
members of the Association of Assistant Teachers
in Secondary Schools. I want to bring that to a close

What I am saying is that after Mr. Stanton
Gittens held a meeting with his staff at Combermere
on Friday, Mr. Clarke, one of his staff members -
and understand it, the association between Mr.
Clarke and the present Minister of Education could
not be closer he conveyed a message to the Minis-
ter, and the Minister expecting fire and brimstone
at the meeting on Saturday, early Saturday morning
telephoned Mr. Glasgow to say that the Minister
would not be present. No explanation at all.


What we are saying is this: whenyou find a sup-
posedly responsible body of people -educated people
- let us ask ourselves if three of these people, just
looking for the friendship of the Minister, or for fa-
vours from the Minister, should go into the Minis-
ter's office on Saturday morning trying to deny all
that they said before.

This same Arden Clarke I am telling you now
- when the meeting on Saturday decided that they
would issue this protest, Arden Clarke wanted to
know: "What else can we do?" That is the situation.

So what we are saying is that this is a trade
union. It is a responsible or supposedly responsible
body of educated people. If they can do that, what
have they left the scavenger in Bridgetown to do or
the employees of the Local Government Councils or
the waterfront workers to do?

When you find responsible teachers acting like
that, and at the head of it, Glasgow of all persons!
4.20 p.m.

Mr. Speaker, let us now proceed with this Bill.
The Bill will make provision for Liberal Arts, Sir,
the teaching of Latin, Greek, Spanish and French.
They talk about ample provision. We do not know
whether the Minister will be asking for five or four
"0" Levels in order that a student may enter the
Community College. Can we not say that the teaching
of these things at post-G.C.E. standard can we
not say that ample provision is made for this at
Cave Hill? Can the Minister deny this?

Sir, let us take a stride along from Liberal Arts
and take a glance at the Social Arts. Even this sub-
ject is already beingtaught in our schools to children
in the 11 to 18 age group. This is being taught in all
our Senior Department Schools. You will find, Sir,
that there is provision for the teaching of Home
Economics, Home Management and Political Science,
because time and again we look around here in the
Visitors' Gallery and we see classes from some of
our schools in this island are brought here for the
children to observe, to see and to hear for them-
selves the display, the pronouncements and so on
by hon. members. (ASIDES)

I want to keep this debate at a very high level,
Sir. I am indeed glad, Sir, that none of the children
who come here from time to time were on hand to
see the demonstration of a Minister snatching two
plates of food.

Sir, suppose we turn to the useful Arts: the
teaching of woodwork, metal work, tinsmithing and
similar trades. These, Mr. Speaker, are already
taught in what we call the 46 Senior Department
Schools in this Island.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, Ithankthe hon.
member for giving way, but in accordance with the
undertaking which I gave earlier that I would break
in, so to speak, at 4.25 p.m., I am not doing this.
I would like the hon. member to move, first of all,

that further consideration of this matter be 'post-

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, Ibegto move that fur-
ther consideration of this matter be postponed.

Mr. CRAIG: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Private Members' Business be taken from 4.30
p.m. until six o'clock within which time the Opposi-
tion will make a broadcast reply of 78 minutes to the
Financial Statement and Budgetary Proposals.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.


Mr. SPEAKER: It is now Private Members'
Business, and the first Order of the Day under Pri-
vate Members' Business stands in the name of the
Hon. and learned Leader of the Opposition and it is
to move the passing of a Resolution condemning the
Government's financial proposals for the Fiscal
Year 1968-69 as contained in the Financial State-
ment and Budgetary Proposals made on 2nd July,
1968 by the Hon. Minister of Finance.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, it is with
some heart burning that I gave notice of this Reso-
lution. I will read it. I beg to move:

BE IT RESOLVED that this House condemns the
Government's financial proposals as contained in the
Ministerial Statement made this second day of July,
1968, deplores its failure to introduce measures to
reduce the exorbitant rates of interest nowprevailing
in this country, its failure to introduce measures
to stimulate the building industry, its failure to in-
troduce measures to reduce the high cost of living
and its failure to relieve the high rate of unemploy-
ment, among other acts of omission.

Mr. Speaker, I say that I make this Resolution
with some heart burning, because my threat this
morning was no empty threat. When you have a
shameful breach of a promise solemnly given bythe
Government, I thought my duty was not to move the
Resolution at all this afternoon. Ihave since been told
that there are hundreds of members of the public,
some of whom have come from the country districts
and have brought transistors into town in order to
listen at 4.30 p.m.
4.30 p.m.

That is the only reason why I am now moving
the Resolution. I intend to make any remarks on it


later, but leave it to the hon. senior member for St.
Thomas, who is responsible for financial matters
on our side, to address the House.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I rise to
second the Resolution standing in the name of the
Hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, nothing
has been so flattering to members of Parliament on
this side of the House as the very great attention
which we have discerned in the past week or ten
days that the public has been giving to this year's
Budget and our expected reply. Indeed, Sir, it was
only today in the precincts of this Honourable Cham-
ber that various members of the public approached
some of us on this side of the House and said that
the eyes of Barbados were on us, and on this Budget
debate would be tested whether or not we were an
alternative Government. But, Mr. Speaker, much as
we appreciate these sentiments, I will respectfully
point out that those who are on trial are the members
of the Government, and not the members of the Op-
position. We have no power to do anything. The per-
son whose Statement is being tried and analysed
today is the Minister of Finance, not anybody on this
side, and that is why we are here this afternoon, Mr.
Speaker, with a wider audience than is customary
for the Opposition to get, because what with the mo-
noploy newspaper putting a blanket and a close down
and shut down on news reporting, and what with the
previous promise made by the Democratic Labour
Party in a election manifesto and broken subse-
quently, that debates of the House of Assembly
would be broadcast, our voices indeed, Mr. Speaker,
have to be cast forth into the dark of the night on
political platforms if we wish to be heard at all in

There is no doubt, Mr. Speaker, thatthe serious
anti-democratic tendencies which we have seen on the
part of the present Government are served by the
lack of reporting of debates of this Chamber, and
by the devaluation of the importance of this Chamber
to Barbados. All these things, Mr. Speaker, are
merely a reflection of the anti-democratic trend of
the present Government.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the Government has been in
power for seven long years. The Prime Minister
says from time to time that there was never pre-
viously a Minister of Finance, and presumably he
is prepared to take on his back the whole of Gov-
ernment economic policy in a way that he has made
clear on his own estimation thatno previous Minis -
ter has been able to take. He must therefore, Mr.
Speaker, be prepared to take the blame for what has
gone wrong if he hope to take the credit for what
has gone right, andthe very firstpoint I want to make
about this year's Budget and Financial Statement con-
cerns the Economic Survey, or rather, its lack. Mr.
Speaker, in my ignorance perhaps, I had assumed that
an Economic Survey was a necessary prerequisite to
the introduction of the Financial Statement into the
House, because the Financial Statement is not just
proposal for taxation. The Financial Statement is an
account of the stewardship, to use the well-known
phrase of the Minister of Finance, for his previous

financial year. Without the Economic Survey and
without adequate economic figures --and this after
all is something which the Prime Ministerhas prided
himself on: the increased efficiency which he has
brought to the office without a Survey and the fig-
ures for the past year, how can we properly approach
the whole question of a Financial Statement?

The Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance,
apologised at the beginning of his Budget Statement.
He said that on previous occasions from as early as
1962, he had managed to publish an annual Economic
Survey either shortly before or simultaneously with
the presentation of the-Budget. I say, Mr.Speaker, it
is practically unconstitutional to introduce a Finan-
cial Statement without the material on which such
a Financial Statement should be introduced. It is like
calling on the Estimates to be passed without spe-
cifying the Heads of expenditure. Now also early
in his Budget Statement, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of
Finance thanked certain Senators of the Other Place
who have given assistance with the financial side
of managing Government business. He called in aid
his colleague, Dr. Eric Williams of Trinidad, who
has also appointed a member of that country's Upper
House to assist him on the financial side. That is
another practice which I say borders on the uncon-
stitutional. We in here are the people who hold the
purse strings of this country; we in here pass the
money; we in here have to vote the Estimates every
year. Why should a Senator, a member of the Other
Place, have the power without the responsibility to
us of day to day or item by item analysis or esti-
mation or interference, if you like, Mr. Speaker,
with the finances of Barbados?

We. can observe that the present Minister to
Washington, the former Attorney General, once per-
formed the job of Chairman of the Estimates Com-
mittee. I think all of us are agreed that the work he
did as Chairman of the Estimates Committee was
well up to the standard of the work that he did as'
Attorney General, and the best service that the Prime
Minister ever rendered the Government was to get
rid of him both as Attorney General andas Chairman
of the Estimates Committee; but nevertheless, Mr.
Speaker, we still observe what I am going to call a
fault in the Estimates, thatyearafteryearthe Min-
ister of Finance comes into the House and says that
what was planned as a deficit has become a surplus,
either, he would say some years, by the buoyancy
of the economy, or other years, by careful financial
management. This year I think he has chosen both.
We have careful financial management at the start of
the Budget, and we have buoyancy towards the end.
But in reality, Mr. Speaker, these phrases are only
phrases to conceal the fact that the Estimates of
Revenue and Expenditure are not calculatedproperly.

Now we passed a certain amount of expenditure.
The purpose of the Estimates Committee is to keep
down the volume of expenditure, wherever possible,
by analysing the demands of Departments and prun-
ing them to manageable size. What can we say of a
Committee that analyses the demands of Depart-
ments to the tune of $50 million, but the Departments


can only spend $48 million? These are examples
surely, Mr. Speaker, of inefficiency at the bottom
stage. If every single year a Minister of Finance
can come in here and say that revenue was under-
estimated, and last year we collected more taxes
than we thought, is it not time for another look to be
taken at the basis of estimating revenue? That is what
we would say, Mr. Speaker, about those parts of the
Budget Statement that seemed to suggest that it was
something clever to be able to have a wide variation
in June from what you put forward in March of the
previous year as your plans for a year.
4.40 p.m.

Now, Mr. Speaker, again the Prime Minister has
said that it is impracticable for the person who is
the Head of the Government and also in charge of
its Foreign Affairs, to carry sole responsibility for
the Exchequer of the country. If the Prime Minister
knows that, he has the solution within his grasp. I
have heard it said that the work of the Ministry of
External Affairs, such as it is, is done by the Hon.
Leader of the House. I have heard that said. If that
is so, why is it that he is not appointed Minister of
External Affairs? I am sure that he could do much
less damage there than he did at the Ministry of
Education. Is Barbados such an important country
that we need a Minister and an Assistant Minister
of External Affairs? Could a person of the political
experience and background in politics of the hon.
junior member for St. Lucy be a yard-boy in a Min-
istry? If the Prime Minister finds the work too much
for him, he can give away one of the Ministries.
There is not so much work to be done in External
Affairs, anyhow, or there should not be, at any rate.

I observe again that the Government has got
tired of participation in the very many Organizations,
Conferences and other things which for so many
years, we have observed have been a pattern of ac -
tivity, and that travelling by Ministers to all of these
Conferences is going to be cut down. Perhaps, Mr.
Speaker, we will then find that the only person, who
really travels, in the ranks of the Government and
the Democratic Labour Party will be Senator Morgan.
He is very proud of his travels, and perhaps the
Government intends him to be their roving Am-
bassador. I think it is significant because lam going
to deal with Tourism; we must deal with tourism in
this survey and I think it is significant, if we look at
these patterns of Government expenditure, if we look
at things such as Tourist Boardexpenditure, despite
the boast of the Prime Minister and this, I think,
formed the central part of the Financial Statement -
Tourism has not yet reached the position of even
beginning to.look like taking over from sugar as the
number one industry of Barbados. If it is such a
cardinal point of Government policy that sugar must
be phased out, that no cane-blade must be seen, that
the future lies in Tourism, if he makes a closer
analysis than ithas ever been given in this House, the
statistics are there. Between 1956 and 1961, Tour-
ism, roughly speaking, doubled in Barbados. It did
the same thing between 1961 and 1966. It is on a
growth market. Earlier this year the Prime Minis-
ter, addressing the Chamber of Commerce, I think,

said that as far as he could see, Tourism had al-
ready taken over from sugar as the No. 1 industry of
Barbados. His exact words were these: "Ihave come
to the conclusion that Tourism is now the major
money-earner in the economy of Barbados, and not
sugar." Well this was contradicted in the Budget
Statement when it was shown that Tourism is still
a few million dollars below, even on the basis of the
statistics which were presented; but it is important
for us, when we think of Tourism, not to misunder-
stand or bring forward any statistics which are sus -
pect and dangerous. I remember, and many of us
may also remember, if we move in appropriate cir-
cles, that I heard I remember once being told in
London, I think it was, that liars are divided into
three classes liars, damned liars and Barbadians.
It was a Jamaican who said it, and subsequently, on
top of that I think it was after this Government
came into power; it was after the present Prime
Minister took office and subsequent to that, an
addition was made: ":Liars, damned liars, Barba-
dians and Barbadian statisticians." Where is this
$34 million that Tourism earns for Barbados? How
did we get at that figure? Howdidwe arrive at it?
It is being pushed up more and more in order to get
closer to the $35 million, $36 million or $37 million
that sugar earns.

Three years ago, I think it was the Tripartite
Commission which said that there were serious flaws
in the estimation of tourist revenue in Barbados;
that, at that time, it had been estimated $6 million
too high and yet the same basis of estimation is con-
tinuing today. Let us lookat it in another way. Where
are the fourteen thousand persons employed in
Tourism as they are employed in sugar? Where is
the contribution that you can see to the whole life of
Barbados that sugar makes? I am not sayingthat we
are safe in sugar, that sugar will always be there,
that sugar is an ideal industry for Barbados, or that
a life of cane-cutting is the ideal life to put forward
for our people. I am not saying that; but I am saying
that the attack on the Sugar Industry and the magni-
fication of Tourism are doing more harm than good.
We may re-orient ourselves towards Tourism, but
-we must understand it. We cannot turn towards it
merely on the say-so and think-so of publicists con-
cerned with the industry who have no genuine basis
for the claims which they put forward. Let us take
one last example of Tourism. You search the sta-
tistics of the gross domestic product and you will
find sugar there, you will find Government expen-
diture there, but you will not find Tourism as such;
and the Minister of Finance in his Statement one
of the few places in which he struck a correct note
was when he said that a more reliable guide of the
value of Tourism to Barbados would be found under
the Services item of the gross domestic product
statistics. Of course, any suggestion that the Ser-
vices item consists entirely of tourist receipts is
nonsense, because it is well known that Barbados is
one of the countries in the world with the greatest
proportion of persons in the domestic service, so that
when we see "services", that is not all Tourism;
that is the very large number of domestic employees
who still work in the households of Barbados making


their contribution to the national product of the coun-

Mr. Speaker, we in the Barbados Labour Party
are second to none in our promotion of Tourism. We
created the Tourist Board; we built the Deep Water
Harbour which made it possible for the increase in
the number of cruise passengers all ofwhomappear
in the Tourist statistics. Letus have no doubt on that
point. We built the Deep Water Harbour; we created
an Airport which made it possible for tourists to
come here in large numbers, and we introduced the
very first Acts to assist hotel development in this
4.50 p.m.

We doubled the number of tourists in our five-
year period of analysis just as the Government did;
but we would no more sacrifice Barbadians on the
altar of sugar than we would sacrifice them on the
altar of Tourism. Our aim is for a mixed economy
in which Barbados's traditional pursuits will con-
tinue side by side with new economic activities.

We would like to see more emphasis placed on
the manufacturing sector.

Now, Mr. Speaker, on that part of the Financial
Statement which dealt with the Public Debt, we want
to sound a word of warning. Again, we are not here
on this side of the House to say that Barbados is
$53 million in debt, that we are bankrupt and do not
have the money. The fact is that we are $53 million
in debt, a large proportion of which is owed outside
the country.

As is normal with Public Debts and National
Debts, when they are owed in the form of Treasury
Bonds and long term loans, it is a less burdensome
type of national liability. When it is in the form of
money owed outside the country, it is much more

Fortunately at the moment the rates of interest
are so high that further expansion of the Public Debt
will be beyond the powers of the Minister of Finance
unless he really wants to run the country into a gen-
uine approach to bankruptcy. That is something you
must still bear in mind.

It does not appear that the thinking of the Minis -
ter of Finance has advanced at all in the last year on
the matter of the Public Debt because when I heard
him introducing this year's debt statistics to the
House I thought that the words sounded somewhat
familiar, and when I turned to last year's Economic
Survey I found that the Prime Minister used the
same words that he used last year in the Financial
Statement with only the date or the amounts changed.
Not exactly the same words; I am not going to press
on that.

He said that the total debt of $18 million was
raised to finance the construction of the Deep Water
Harbour which is a self financing project. That is
what was written last year. He came into the House

this year and he says that of the total Public Debt
$18 million was raised to finance the construction
of the Deep Water Harbour which is a self-financing
project. Well, history repeats itself.

We are not going to quarrel with the Prime Min-
ister if he gives us an advertisement for the Deep
Water Harbour which is a self-financing project, as
he said. Then he went on to say last year that the
remaining amount has been used to stimulate
agricultural diversification, to promote Tourism ex-
cluding the building of the Hilton Hotel and to ex-
pand educational and health services. That is what
he said last year.

This year he said that the remaining amount was
used to meet expenditure on agricultural diversifi-
cation, Tourist promotion excluding the building
of the-Hilton Hotel industrial development and ex-
panding educational and health services.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it may be a misprint of some
sort. I am being charitable. Or he may have just
copied it down wrong without understanding it; but
that is by the way. It is interesting to see that words
of wisdom have their value onthat side of the House,
that they recognize that the Deep Water Harbour is
a great boon to Barbados and that the Public Debt,
some of which was raised by the Barbados Labour
Party and some by the Democratic Labour Party, has
gone on these different projects for the goodof Bar-

Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to say something about
the rate of interest since ithas come into the matter
of the Public Debt. At the present time, there are
difficulties in fund raising. We were given a specific
pledge that when conditions eased, the Rate of In-
terest Amendment Act would be changed so as to
restore the ceiling of rates as they were last year.

Mr. Speaker, conditions have changed in our
view; but even if they had not, a very serious situa-
tion has arisen in Barbados with respect to the lend-
ing of money. It is this; the banks and the banks alone
can lend at more than 8%, but private lenders of
money seem to think and I will say here and now
that if any one in the Government I do not mean in
the Ministry I mean in the Civil Services has given
private holders of money this impression they have
done very wrongly; because if private money holders
seem to think the day will come when they all will
lend money at more than 8% and therefore they are
not lending any money now, they are given the wrong

Advances are drying up. The money available
to Solicitors is drying up. It is very difficult to get
private monies for loans. Barbadians have become
so wedded to. the belief that if X can lend at 10% Y
should be able to lend at 10% too, that they cannot get
into their heads that the essential lubricant of the fine
interest rate system is what the economists call


As long as the present situation goes on, where
banks can lend at a high rate of interest and private
lenders cannot, the longer will continue the restric-
tion of credit in Barbados. A step has to be taken
one way or the other. I do not believe that the Min-
ister of Finance will take the step of putting interest
rates higher up still by allowing everyone to charge
what a particular bank in Bridgetown thinks appro-

The time has come for these steps to be taken.
The construction industry is being affected. Many
persons want to borrow money to finance building
projects, and they are finding it impossible. This
has a direct effect on employment. People cannot
get work because the people who would employ them
cannot get money to employ them.

The Resolution deals with the building industry.
It deals with construction, and I am going to deal
with another project just to give an example of what
is reported to be a striking example of Government

It is an open secret that certain developers have
been interested for many months we can say for
years, Mr. Speaker in developing a substantial part
of Broad Street. I am told that the amount of money
which would 2-' initially available for the purchase of
the properties .o be developed would be $6 million
5.00 p.m.
That would be a very substantial urban project in-
deed; it would involve a hotel building, Iunderstand;
it would involve, perhaps, the redirection of high-
ways and rights of way and so on. But what has been
the answer? These developers would have hadtoap-
proach/the Government because the Government owns
some of the buildings involved such as the Customs
House on the Wharf and, presumably, if roads are
to be restructured the Government would have to
give its permission, and permission from the Town
and Country Planning Department would be a pre-
requisite to all this. But the people have been kept
on a string, Mr. Speaker, and this development which
should come to Barbados has been put off. No de-
cision can be taken on this matter. The developers
have gone to Trinidad where they have been wel-
comed by open arms by Dr. Williams; they got de-
cisions out of Dr. Williams in a few months, and
money that could have been spent here is now being
spent elsewhere. This is not, Mr. Speaker, good fi-
nancial management. It is not dynamic disequi-
librium, and it is not even good housekeeping. A
good housekeeper would, at least, know that, when
one sees money, one must hold on to it, and make
some effort to give people, who have money to spend,
the framework and atmosphere within which they can
spend it.

If the Minister of Finance is too overworked to
come to decisions of this sort, I repeat, let him de-
volve some of his work. I am sure there are those
standing by his side in this House and moreso in
the Upper Chamber who would be only too glad to
relieve him of any work he cared to give them, even
the work of his principal office as Prime Minister. I
am sure of that.

Now, Mr. Speaker, Inland Revenue. The Minister
of Finance said a great deal about the work of the In-
land Revenue Department, and we on this side of the
House welcome the very long overdue Income Tax
Bill which we had been promised. The Barbados La-
bour Party has for some years now been advocating
improved* collection methods; the expansion of the
Investigation Department of the Inland Revenue; and
trying to get away from what so many people com-
plain of in the Inland Revenue Department that all
their efforts are designed to making existing tax-
payers pay more and not finding people who should
be paying taxes.

Mr. Speaker, again, recent reports tell us that
exactly what is being done in the Inland Revenue De-
partment is that more and more pressure is being put
on the existing taxpayers to pay more; that investi-
gation work has, in fact, been temporarily halted be -
cause there is a Canadian Expert down there giving
investigators lectures and so on, and that some time
in the future new taxpayers and those who at present
evade tax contrary to what the Prime Minister
suggested in his speech, avoidance of tax isnota
crime. Anybody can make an effort to avoid income
tax by not working, for example; but evasion of tax
is what we have to get at. Instead of the Department,
which has now been expanded, trying its best to find
all the non-taxpayers and let them share some of the
burden which all of us here in this House have to
share and share very substantially; instead of doing
that, it is pressing more and more the people who
are already within the tax-paying ambit. I hope the
Minister of Finance will take note of that, and have
the Department check up and make sure that inves-
tigation continues to mean investigation.

Mr. Speaker, the Budget itself was, of course,
what we all came to hear on July 2. Every year we
fasten our seat belts to take off; we prepare to take
off; we get the count down; the aeroplane goes a little
way up in the air and comes back down again. We
can always hear of taxes, but we can never, in fact,
see where we are going. Where are we going this
year? Mr. Speaker, what could be extracted from
this Financial Statement that is dynamic? Go over
this Financial Statement, and what do you remember
Mr. Speaker? You will remember that the shopkeepers
had to pay twice as much for a liquor licence. That
is all that will ever be remembered about this Budget
the year that all the liquor licences were put up.
Other criticisms can be made, and we are going to
make them, Mr. Speaker.

Now, the principal weight of taxation, I thinkwe
can say, has fallen not truly on luxury goods. Whiskey
and Gin are always a target, Mr. Speaker. The weight
has fallen on business and industrial equipment -es-
pecially business equipment: typewriters, filing
cabinets, name plates, calculating machines, cheque -
writing machines and so on. We also have air con-
ditioners and refrigerators. Now the taxto be raised
from those, Mr. Speaker and this is something
which is noticeably omitted from the Financial State-
ment is basically a tax which is going to have a
countervailing effect on income tax, because all the
business houses that have to pay increased duties on


typewriters are going to pay that much less in in-
come tax. I would be happy if I thought that the Prime
Minister had analysed this properly, and if it had
appeared in the Budget Statement. He mentioned it in
the case of liquor licences, and pointed out that there
was going to be a diminution of revenue on the income
tax side and it was goingto correspond to the increase
of revenue on the customs side. Customs revenue,
Mr. Speaker, is always unprogressive.

You may say that poor people do not buy type-
writers, but poor people deal with business firms
in Bridgetown that do, and when the cost of business
goes up, that is goingto be passed on to the consumer.
I suggest to hon. members that it is nonsense for the
Minister of Finance to say that there is no pressure
on the middle and lower income consumer in this

Air conditioners are not only essential in luxury
hotel bedrooms; they have to be used in food storage
businesses as well, and some are used in super-
markets in some cases. Refrigerators are used
at supermarkets. With the increased cost of re-
frigeration, Mr. Speaker, and the cost of food storage
going up, we are going to get pressure to raise food
prices. With the increased cost of liquor licences -
it is not only going to be rum that you will have to
carry a cent more to purchase, Mr. Speaker, at some
stage. When you double the cost of the liquor licence,
you cannot expect shopkeepers in the country to be
very nice in the way they choose their increases.
There is no coin smaller than a cent in Barbados, and
if something has to be raised to help the poor shop-
keeper carry through with his licence fees, allhe can
put on is a cent on something, and that is going to
have its effect on the cost of living. So to suggest that
this is a Budget which does not aim at the cost of
living, Mr. Speaker, is not to be realistic. When you
put more money on people in commerce, their only
answer can be to get it out of those with whom they
do business.

With respect to hotel building, we are talking
about Tourism. We know there is a hotel that will
have to be rebuilt very shortly. Perhaps we should
all commiserate with the poor gentleman who has
lost his hotel. He will now have to pay more for the
air conditioners, refrigerators and other items un-
less he can manage, even after these years of opera-
tion, to get them in duty free. It will be interesting
to see exactly what happens. So far as hotels are
concerned, all of these things have to be thought
about. Even if they bring in their air conditioners
duty free genuine new hotel buildings, Mr. Speaker
- they will be subject to exactly the same pressure,
because they deal a lot in frozen foods and they have
to get their frozen food from somewhere. The cost
of refrigeration is going to press on them.

As it is, Mr. Speaker, we can see that a lot of
ithe increased tourist receipts and next year's
figures will show this are purely the receipts of a
money inflation. Prices have been put up owing to
devaluation, and that is going to be reflected in in-
creased tourist receipts at some future stage, but

it will not represent any genuine increase in Tourism
as such.

Mr. Speaker, I have not dealt with a somewhat
selfish topic, but I must just mention one thing in
passing. Professional men are now to be registered,
and I very much hope that legislation is going to be
introduced to prevent those who do not pay their
registration fees from practising, because I cannot
otherwise see how you can demand it from them.
5.10 p.m.

Just in passing, why were Accountants left out?
They make perhaps more than most of us. Why
were Real Estate Agents left out? Why is not a sys-
tem of registration of Real Estate Agents introduced?
There are professional qualifications for a Real
Estate Agency, and there are practising Real Estate
Agents. I think it could well be recognized, and a
system could well be devised for registration of
these two types of persons. I hope that is something
which will be examined at another stage when the
Minister of Finance is reviewing what has happened
so far.

Now, Mr. Speaker, a part of the Budget Statement
dealt generally with the role of Government in the
gross domestic product; in other words, in the na-
tional income of Barbados. This is something on
which we on this side of the House feel very strongly.
Some people would call it waste when the Government
throws $2 1/2 million down the drain of Caribbean
Broadcasting Corporation; some people would call
it waste when the Government borrows money and
diverts money from Current Revenue to building a
hotel for $11 million for Mr. Conrad Hilton to make
money out of, and the Government to make a loss,
But no; Mr. Speaker, we are toldthat we must praise
the Government for the increased activity of Govern-
ment in the economy, for the increased contribution
that the Government is making to the gross domestic
product. It has now reached around 27% of the grose
domestic product. I would not have such up-to-date
statistics as the Minister of Finance.

In most countries public financiers try to keep
Government spending down. They do not boast of
having put it up, especially if they have projects
of waste like the Hilton Hotel, Caribbean Broadcast-
ing Corporation, and the Barbados Marketing Cor-
poration. It is private waste and public waste. When
they have that type of expenditure, most people would
be ashamed of it. They would not boast of the in=
creased contribution which the Government was
making to the economy. It is our taxes, and we are
entitled to have them well spent, Mr. Speaker. Let
some reflection arise in the Minister's mind that
the aim of a Minister of Finance is to cut down
waste, and that it is not necessarily something to
boast about that the Government is spending more
than a quarter of the country's money.

We see some Resolutions, Mr. Speaker, which
can hardly be adverted to at this stage, for some
examples of really conspicuous waste, and not even
to the benefit of taxpayers of this country, but for
the benefit of private property owners in the United


States. We warned about it. No doubt these Resolu-
tions will pass, but they will be just another example
of Government waste.

I remember listening during the last election
campaign to the television speech of the hon. senior
member for Christ Church who pointed out that we
in the Barbados Labour Party, during our days when
we had the financial management of this country,
knew how to stretch a dollar; this Government knows
how to waste one. That is a record which we have
no desire whatsoever to break. We only want the
Minister of Finance to think about the tens of mil-
lions of dollars which have gone down the drain year
after year under this regime, and set against that
the steady increase in taxation. This is the only
country, Mr. Speaker, that I have ever lived in
where I have never heard any suggestion or ex-
pectation at all, except very briefly this year, that
it was contemplated that taxes could be reduced. It
seems that the people of Barbados have been in-
doctrinated by this Government to believe that there
is only one direction for taxes, and that is upwards,
and the reason for that is that the Government has
no intention of making an effort to control waste,
and therefore the only direction in which your taxes
can go, the only direction in which the National
Debt can go, is up and up all the time.

Mr. Speaker, there are other speakers on our
side who have their contributions to make to this
debate. I regret, and Ihave not expressed my opinion
on it either in this House or elsewhere until now,
that the entire transaction of the Budget could not
be treated as a matter of sufficient national im-
portance for everything to be debated throughout
over the air. These matters of mathematical cal-
culation of seventy-eight minutes and seventy-eight
minutes are all very well; but if it was ever con-
templated that the debates of this Honourable As-
sembly, this central meeting point of Barbados'
representatives of the people, should be broadcast,
then it is the Budget Debate which should be broad-
cast in its entirety. I am not one who would deny
either in Government or in Opposition the fullest
possible expression to my political opponents. Let
the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House show
themselves men and be prepared to have a full scale
debate of this over one or two days if necessary,
with broadcasting arrangements made to cover the
entire transaction.

Mr. Speaker, I beg to second this Resolution.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, in supporting this
Resolution, I think it is our duty on this side to make
our position clear as to our responsibilities as being
the chief watch-dogs over Government activity. Much
has been said about the responsibility of the Opposi-
tion through the Public Accounts Committee to check
and control wastage. There can be no doubt that in this
country we have seen a tremendous lot of wastage
of revenue which has been collected by hard taxa-
tion. The Public Accounts Committee as is con-
stituted now is at the hands, and at the mercy, and
at the whim of the Government-appointed members.

This Committee consists of seven persons; a quorum
is four persons. The only members from this side
are the Hon. Leader of the Opposition, the hon. junior
member for St. James and the hon. junior member
for Bridgetown. As you yourself know, Mr. Speaker,
many efforts have been made through you to summon
a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee, but un-
less at least one member of the Government deems
it his duty to turn up, it is impossible for that Com-
mittee to function.

I want also to explode another popular myth.
The Leader of the Opposition is not the Chairman
of the Public Accounts Committee in Barbados. The
Chairman has to be appointed at a meeting, and since
there has not been a meeting, there is no Chairman.
We on this side know why we cannot expect Govern-
ment co-operation in this matter. They have failed
up to now to have investigated the scandalous was-
tage that occurred in the expenditure of $11 million
at the Hilton Hotel. They have by the dint of criticism
on this side, and by the force of arguments, and by
public outcry, decided to reverse their policy in the
construction of Government capital works. This is
a welcome move. At least our efforts on this side
have had some effect in preventing wastage.
5.20 p.m.

The Minister of Finance, himself, has said
that if he could save one quarter of the wastage in
the Public Works Department, the necessity and his
headaches for finding additional revenue would be
partially removed. Although they have let out a num-
ber of Government works on contract, I would remind
the Hon. Ministers in charge that it is still the duty
of the Government to ensure through its engineering
staff that the standards which are specified are com-
plied with; and it also places the burden on your en-
gineering advisers to see that as much pre-planning
in projects as possible must take place, because no
tender can be a satisfactory tender if it is based upon
items which are only provisional at the time and date.

Mr. Speaker, one of our criticisms of this Bud-
get is the failure of the Government to tackle a fun-
damental subject which is engaging the attention of
many people in Barbados. The hon. senior member
for St. Thomas has mentioned it in the course of his
speech, namely, the Government's attitude and policy
in relation to interest rates in Barbados. Now, Sir,
I looked up the debate which took place last year,
when the Rate of Interest Act was amended. At that
time it was pointed out to the other side by us that
the effect of amending the Rate of Interest Act in the
manner in whichit was amended, would create a situ-
ation in which a tiny minority of expatriate organisa-
tions in this country would be able to hold the whole
community up to ransom; namely, the banks. Mr.
Speaker, if ever our predictions could be true, it is
in this case. Today they have had the audacity, one
of them at least, to advertise long-term loans at a
rate of interest of 9%, 9 1/2%, and I challenge the
Minister of Finance to deny that fact. Whenthe Min-
ister of Finance was speaking during the course of
that Bill, he said this: "I have no intention of allow-
ing mortgage rates for house -building to come in this


Bill." Of course, we pointed out then that he had given
a wholesale licence to the banks to charge what they
like, and that is exactly what has happened. It has
been made worse now because of the fact that only
banks can charge rates of interest above eight per
cent. The other money-lending institutions cannot
charge more than 8% unless they are permitted by
the Minister of Finance to do so, and they are very
slow and hesitant to make loans, so again you have
created artificial demands for the banks. I hold no
briefs for them at all. I say that in Barbados it is a
fact that they do not lend out more money than they
get from the Barbadian depositors. They make large
sums of money out of foreign exchange transactions
in Barbados, and I say that they are only paying de-
depositors 5 1/2% at the maximum and that their
mark-up, the differential between what they are
borrowing at and what they are lending at, is a very
high percentage. I say that the responsibility for this
must fall on the shoulders of the Minister of Finance,
and nowhere else. He has allowed himself to be put
in a position where four people, four organizations,
can exploit the Barbadian public, and he calls him-
self or he says he is acting in the interest of Barbados
when he does that! Of course, there must be some
reason for this, and only the Hon. Minister can tell
this House that reason. He has refused to do it on an
occasion when everyone was looking for it and waiting
on it the occasion of the Budget Statement.

Mr. Speaker, I go further. In Trinidad lastweek
the Central Bank Rate dropped to 6 1/2%, and the
Governor of the Central Bank said that one reason
why it had dropped was because that was the state
of the money supply in Trinidad and it was felt that
conditions now were such that he thinks they should
be. The bank rate inEnglandhas dropped. Of course,
we do not have any Central Bank, but the Government
does not arm itself with its powers to be able to
deal with the banks. They are too big and too power-
ful. If we look forward to what is happening in this
country, banking, insurance and tourism are gradu-
ally getting into the hands of people abroad and we
are creating a dangerous situation in this country.
The time will soon come when we will have to en-
sure that the Government is armed with these
powers, and they can do it constitutionally, but they
are afraid to do it. This Government is afraid to
tackle the big interests and the foreign interests
in this country. This Government is a Government
which panders to the powers of foreign investment.
(Hear, Hearl) I wouldhave thought, even at this stage,
that the Minister would have made a pronouncement
about a bank defying his obvious intentions, at least
if those were his intentions, because I am beginning
to doubt that those were his intentions when he told
the House that mortgagees could not charge that
rate. This is having a profound effect on the con-
struction industry, as the hon. senior member for
St. Thomas has said. The construction industry is
one of the largest employers of labour in this coun-
try, and the Government will have to make up its
mind as to what incentives it can grant in order to
stimulate this industry. The Cave Hill Development
Scheme is not off the ground yet.
5.3V p.m.

Unless we can have an increase in the volume
of construction in this country the unemployment
rate, with emigration outlets being choked off as
they are, is going to rise higher and higher. Mr.
Speaker, the Government says that a new Tax Bill
and a new Bill for Insurance Companies will be down
soon. We welcome this, and we have always felt on
this side that there should be some measure of con-
trol of insurance companies in Barbados.

We would hope that both of these Bills will be
circulated early so that the relevant professional
organizations as well as the general public will
have the opportunity to make their comments thereon.
I also welcome too the fact I do not mind what
foreigners say about running away foreign invest-
ment. It may well be that the time has come when
we should have a Capital Gains Tax in this country.

I think, Sir, that when you investigate whathap-
pens with the Hotel Incentive legislation and the
sales that take place near the end of the time, when
you think that the taxpayers have got to subsidise
the operation of the Tourist Board, and when you
think of these things you do feel that some part of
this expenditure should be recouped in some form
of taxation.

Now, Sir, the Government has been placing
great store on Tourism. It is obvious that Tourism
is a very important prop now in our economy; but it
seems very remarkable to me that this Government
on the one hand should boast about the rise in the
Tourist Industry, and at the same time close down
the Tourist Promotion Office in London. It seems
to me illogical, especially when some 8,000 to 9,000
visitors came to Barbados from Britain, and the total
cost of operating that office was no more than
$75,000 or $100,000. In fact it was less than $100,000.

One would expect that the Minister in charge of
Tourism would have issued a public Statement about
alternative arrangements; but up to now, as far as
can be gathered, there are no alternative arrange-
ments for carrying on the functions which the Board's
office in London used to operate.

Mr. Speaker, it is these unpredictable, incon-
sistent acts that make us on this side feel that the
Government is really sick and tired of handling the
affairs of this country. The Minister of Finance has
found himself in the position where he has to take all
the decisions, and unless he takes decisions nothing
can be done. That is a sad and sorry state of affairs
to which any country can come.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I am glad, this after-
noon, to see that I have been able to speak to the
electorate of Barbados through the services of the
Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation.. Now, Sir, the
Good Book says to fight the good fight, and I really
had to put up a good fight so that the people of Bar-
bados could hear me this afternoon.

Sir, having to speak after three lawyers and
they are very good ones you can understand that I


am in a very embarrassing position now; but I will
begin by saying that I had intended to lambast the
Government this afternoon backward and forward if
I did not have the assurance that Lammings is a

I take the opportunity this afternoon to speak to
my people in St. Joseph and let them know that they
will soon be resisted from these dangerous hills to
Lammings. I will say, Sir, that you will be saving a
certain amount on maintenance on your car when
you have to go to District "F" because your journey
will be cut short by not less than two miles.

I have had to put up agoodfight to get this Gov-
ernment to realise that there are people living in St.
Joseph, and not mules. Do not care which Govern-
ment it might be my Government or your Govern-
ment we have the country to run, and we have to
find money; but the question is: when you raise the
money how you are going to spend it? For what,
and for whom?

Sir, you must spend money wisely. After we
have plucked it out of the hands of the taxpayers,
we must spend it wisely. Now that I am on this
broadcast, Sir, I want to let the Government know
here and now that it is not fair to be muzzling, so
to speak, the elected representatives by not allow-
ing them to broadcast through this medium to the
people of Barbados. I say that this is a dangerous
state of affairs when the electors of this country
have sent us here to represent them, and would like
to know what the representatives are doing for them
because unfortunately they have really sent some
dull ones, and they should be able to find out who are
the dull ones and who are talking in their interest.

But, if you try to prevent us from doing so, the
electorate will not know who is who and whom to
vote for and whom not to vote for. I want to know if
this is why the Government is so reluctant to give
every opportunity of putting it over to the people. If
that is so, I will tell you here and now that it is
wrong to do it. The people must hear their repre-

Now, Sir, time is running out on me, and 'late
fowl has to pick up corn very quickly or he will only
get very few grains'. Let me remind the Hon. Prime
Minister now. It may be through his advisers or it
may be something on his own part; but let me tell
him here and now that the taxes that are to be levied
on the transient traders are going to create a hard-
ship on the poor people in the country.
5.40 p.m.

Now the majority of these Indians have to buy
their goods from the merchants; they do not import
their goods; they buy the goods from the merchants
in Bridgetown and take them all over the country. It
is true that they may put on something more than
what the goods would cost them. This is what happens
to these people. Some of them have to pay for the
maintenance of a motor car, and they have to travel
all over the country. They may sell an item for $20

and they may take years and years to collect the
money. The process of collecting the money is very
slow 254, 500 and sometimes nothing at all.

Now, Sir, when you go and penalise these In-
dians by making them pay a licence fee of $500,
you are creating a great hardship on the people -
not the Indians or traders, because they will pass
it on to the people who buy or credit the goods.
Imagine a man with a family of three or four chil-
dren who are already faced with the high cost of
living, and who have to deal with these people. You
have now decided to tax the traders and make it
harder for the other people. Now a motor car cannot
last a trader for more than three years unless he
spends a lot of money on it, and in the fifth year he
will have to change it. They will have to buy another
car for $4,000 or $5,000 every five years, if they
do not want to spend a lot of money on it. They have
to take care of the upkeep of a car, and now they have
to face a licence fee of $500. For five years they will
pay $2,500 as licence fees for selling their goods
and collecting the money for them at the rate of 250
or 5001

Sir, one of those Indians told me that if they were
educated they would not worry to do this type of work;
they would be able to stay at home and get a better
job; but they are not educated and they have to do
this type of work in order to make a living. That is
what an Indian told me, and I believe him.

If I had to employ people, especially girls, and
I saw an Indian, she would have to be employed first
because her hair is very pretty. I would have to
employ an Indian girl first. I repeat that these peo-
ple do not have education, and they have to do this
type of work in order to make a living. I do not be-
lieve the Prime Minister knows about this, because
he is accustomed to flying high in the air without
looking down unless he is going to land; so he would
not know of the hardship that is being created by the
additional tax on these people. I hope he will see it
fit at some time to give further consideration to this

Sir, I did not know that theywere paying a trade
tax. They say that they have to pay over $100 per
year as trade tax. I am not a lawyer, Sir, and I do
not advise people wrongly like some lawyers do.
I give this advice to the traders: you have no right
paying trade tax, because you buy the goods in
Bridgetown and you sell them in St. Joseph: so you
cannot be taxed for trading. This is a challenge to
the Prime Minister, and when he gets up he can
say if I am right or wrong. Where are they trading?
They are not in a permanent position; they are mov-
ing about the country. It would mean that every parish
in which these people do trade would have to make
them pay a tax. I throw out a challenge to the Prime
Minister, or any other legal man, to tell me if I am
wrong or right. You cannot make them pay a trade
tax, because they are not trading permanently: they
buy goods in Bridgetown and sell them in St. Lucy,
St. John and all over the place; therefore how can
they be taxed in St. Michael?


Now the Prime Minister has introduced his $500
for a licence! There are a lot of poor people in this
country who need protection. The Prime Minister
taxes us in his Budget, but he fails to tell the people
what he is going to do with the money. There are
some old people in this country that cannot, or will
ever be able to qualify for a loan from the Housing
Authority. You have some old people living inhouses
that I do not think some people would put a good pig
in them. These people cannot get any help from the
Housing Authority because they are not qualified to
obtain a loan. What provision is being made yearly
out of the money collected so that these people, who
are being taxed through buying expensive goods,will
get some sort of assistance?

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, on a point
of order. I have been so stimulatedby the arguments
of the hon. member that I am wondering if the Radio
Technician cannot extend the hon. member's time by
10 minutes, which would thereby give him more time,
because there are one or two things on which I would
like to correct him and I would like him to develop
his arguments more fully. (Asides)

Mr. Speaker, I regret that the hon. member's
Party did not afford him a greater proportion of the
time which was allotted, because although he was
not putting his point with the elegance that is his
wont, yet I think he is talking on the Budget which
the other hon. members were not talking on.

Mr. SMITH: Sir, am Ioff the air? Now I have to
thank the Hon. Prime Minister for giving me a little
more quoting the same word of the hon. member
for St. Lucy "latitude". There is another point
that I will draw to the attention of the Hon. Prime
Minister. Under the classification of Falernum and
Gin I do not think the Hon. Prime Minister knows
about this, and I am drawing it to his attention it
is going to cost over $5 per gallon. But what is Fa-
lernum? Falernum is a local product, and the most
of it is being made from sugar. It is not an im-
ported product, and I feel that when the Hon. Prime
Minister was considering the matter he was thinking
in terms of imported products and luxury drinks
without realising that Falernum would have risen
$5 per gallon more although it is made with our
sugar and water.
5.50 p.m.

Now, Sir, I hope he will make a note of that. That
also will create a hardship on the blenders. Now,
Sir, gin. What is our local gin? It is some rum with
a little essence, and that is called gin. That is going
to cost $6 more per gallon for our own product. I do
not think that the Prime Minister wanted to rob these
people in that way. I feel that he did not know or he
might not have listened to his advisers.

Mr. Speaker, the additional increase on the
small rum shops sounds small, but it is very hard
on the majority of these sellers, because the ma-
jority of these small shopkeepers in the rural areas
every morning or every other morning ask the con-
ductor on a bus to bringupa dozen three-gill bottles

of rum and a dozen nips. They would sell them and,
I daresay, credit some out, and the next day have
another dozen or half a dozen bought. These little
penny-half-penny shops cannot carry that weight,
but the people feel they are employing themselves
and call themselves shopkeepers. Of the dozen
bottles of rum bought, they credit out not less than
six, and they would have to wait until the Friday
or Saturday night to raise money to send money to
send to town for more. Sometimes they borrow the
money to buy the rum.

I feel, Sir, that the Liquor Licences shouldbe in
categories, a, b, c, d, e and f and you could
easily know from assessment how much a person
could pay. Unfortunately since the abolition of the
Councils and Local Government, you do not have
assessments yearly; I think it is every five years
now; but you could know what business they were
doing. There are some who can pay and others who
cannot; so do not let us try to raise the unemploy-
ment list. We do not mind them having a chance to pay
the licence in instalments if they have the instal-
ments; but if they do not have the instalments, they
cannot pay them.

With respect to these transient traders, I have
not seen that they have been given an opportunity to
pay the $500 in instalments. If you are going to give
the man who has to pay $100 four opportunities to pay
his licence, you should consider the man who has to
pay $500 and give him some time to pay if you are
not prepared to relieve him. Everything we are
doing is creating a hardship on these small people,
because you have to pass it on to those people who
are only going to get three days' work from now on.
Imagine a man with children, sending them to school
and only getting $10, $12 or $15 a week to maintain
his family Three days' work is almost nothing.

With respect to free secondary education, we are
all contributing to it. These same people are contri-
buting to it, but are they benefitting from it? Their
children cannot get a place in a Government-aided
school and have to make use of the Private Secondary
Schools. They have to pay to educate my children
whom I am in a position to educate, and they then
have to pay through their nose for theirs at the pri-
vate schools; and every term a letter comes home
requesting increased fees. They will soon reach
airplane height, and the next occasion on which the
Prime Minister calls on me to fasten my seat belt
and take off with him, we will find private school
fees up there. It is time, Sir, that something should
be done to help these poor people with the children,
or see to it that I pay for mine, and let the amount I
have to pay for mine go to the other persons; but do
not keep it like that and penalise the poor people of
this country. It is the poor people, Sir, with whom
I am concerned. I see that the Bingo people gave the
Government a pond of money to put up a pretty-pretty
thing up by Waterford, but we still have a lot of
people sleeping at the door. There are a lot of people
who cannot get anywhere to live. Can't the Govern-
ment call on the Jaycees to raise a fund to help
these people out of the sun and rain? These people


were responsible for the wealth of this country by
working in those days for 8 cents and 10 cents, and
now they are thrown aside. The Government is drag-
ging those who have not been thrown aside from
parish to parish, and from one Almshouse to another
where their families cannot see them. It makes me
feel that this Government is not in favour of poor
people, because people from St. Joseph have to hire
a motor car to go to look for their relatives in St.
Thomas or St. Lucy. They are pulling the poor old
people all over the place as you would pull a dead
mule, and we are called upon to pay the taxes.

Sir, I thank you for listening so patiently.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I was won-
dering whether the hon. member has concluded his
speech or whether he is merely giving way because
of the time.

Mr. SMITH: Sir, I am only giving way because
of the time, but I will be coming again. You will re-
member that I have two Budgets to deal with now.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Yes. The hon. member is
in a very unique position of speaking on two Budgets
at the same time.


Hon. E. W. BARROW:Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that, the time now being 6.00 p.m., the House revert
to Government Business.

Mr. SPEAKER: In view of the decision which
we took on the motion which was carried, automa-
tically we revert to Government Business now, it
being 6 o'clock p.m.

When the House was dealing with Government
Business, the Bill under consideration was the Bill
to provide for the establishment of an educational
institution to be known as the Barbados Community
College, and the hon. junior member for St. Peter
was addressing the Chair. If he has not yet concluded,
he may now resume.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I think I had reached
the point with respect to the useful Arts, and I was
saying that Government in this Bill had made no pro-
vision for the teaching of such.
6.00 p.m.

At the Technical Institute we now offer three
levels of training. Training is offered at the artisan
or journeyman level, and there is training of motor
mechanics at the ,technical level. There is also the
level of the technologist which the former Minister of
Education preferred to refer to as technicraft. I
remember that distinctly. You will see nowthat boys
from the Lodge School and Harrison College go to
the Technical Institute on one or two evenings a week
and pursue courses at the practical level, leading to
the standard of the technologist. Therefore, you will
find that whether you have a Community College or
not, there is a questionwhich has got to be considered,

and it is whether or not we are now making provision
for duplicating the functions of the various institutions
which are presently with us.

As to Science, the Community College proposes
to offer the teaching of Science. I recall the fuss
which was made way back in 1949 when the Ministry
of Education introduced the then Common Course.
Science and nine other secondary subjects were
placed on the curriculum of these schools; there
are now 46 of them which have Senior Departments
attached. I am willing to admit that due to the lack
of trained staff, progress in this fieldhas not been at
all spectacular. At the time the Ministry of Educa-
tion sent around a sample syllabus of General
Science, and that syllabus is now being followed up
or put into practice in the seven Comprehensive
Schools which we have in this Island. At these
Comprehensive Schools, there is a Laboratory at-
tached to each of them, I think, and I know that the
scheme was to provide Laboratories at our Gram-
mar Schools in this Island as well. Even if there are
children who are desirous of continuing to study, they
can do so with Government assistance, and through
the co-operation of the various Governing Bodies,
they are able to pursue studies in this particular
field; and we must not, even at this stage, forget
what is being done or what is being offered at the
cave Hill Campus and even at St. Augustine's in
Trinidad and at Mona in Jamaica. That is at Uni-
versity level.

Mr. Speaker, much argument will be advanced
that the establishment of this College will be to re-
duce a certain amount of the snobbishness which is
now still raising its head in the Secondary School
system and that the presence of this College will
abolish it; but this argument is somewhat fallacious
due to the fact that you will see that the Government
is still persisting in a system whereby these schools
are graded. The present Government is not prepared
to pursue a policy of accord in these schools so that
you will find Harrison College, Queen's College and
Lodge School being provided with the cream of
children who passed the comprehensive examina-
tion, then those in another grade are distributed
amongst other schools. But what we feel is that the
activities of the institutions which are presently
functioning need to be revived. If that is done, the
activities of the Evening Institutes in the rural cen-
tres, let us say, need to be revived and you can have
for instance, in my own parish of St. Peter certainly
there should be a hive of activity at the Speightstown
Centre between 4.00 p.m. and 9.00 p.m for at least
four or five nights a week. I go further and say that
at the Coleridge-Parry School a Centre could be
established, and in your own parish of St. Lucy, Mr.
Speaker, there are many people who could appreciate
travelling out on evenings to the Coleridge-Parry
as a centre whereby these young boys and girls and
even some adults,, could have evening studies and be
better equipped, if they are to take their rightful place
in society as the years roll by.
In the same way, we have the Alleyne School in
St. Andrew and West St. Joseph School inSt. Joseph;


they could serve the parishes of St. Andrew and St.
Joseph. In St. Philip, we have the Princess Margaret
School, and centres could be established at all of
these points. In other words,as happens nowin these
Grammar Schools, you have a 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. or
thereabout, day school. Instruction is given during
those hours, and after that the places are closed;
and while those places are closed, there are thou-
sands of people outside who are yearning to be taught
something, who are yearning to go and sit down and
listen to a lecture whether it reaches the "0" Level,
the Advanced Level, or whatever it is. In other
words, as long as it is furthering the knowledge of
these people, it helps them in some way to under-
stand and appreciate each other better in the long
run. That is what we advocate needs to be done.
6.10 p.m.

If we were to look at what we now have, we have
10 Grammar Schools, 46 Senior Departments, seven
Comprehensive Schools and 117 Primary Schools in
this Island. In addition to that, there are 17 Private
Secondary Schools that are assisted by the Govern-

All of these institutions, Mr. Speaker, should
be brought into play. In other words, they should be
filled so as to encourage our people and help them
to do more. We are fortunate in the parish of St.
Peter to have eight schools with Senior Departments.
I think that these schools are called schools for all
ages; that is in the strict sense of the meaning of the
Ministry in that these schools cater to children be-
tween the ages of five and 14.

Let us take a look at the Housecraft Centre and
see whether we have fallen down in the teaching of
the useful arts of cookery, laundering, needlecraft
etc. and whether better use could not be made of the
facilities which presently exist there.

One thing we must regret is that at Erdiston
Training School for Teachers, Housecraft and Home
Economics has been removed from the curriculum.
That is something to be regretted, and, honestly, I
would like to hear the Minister offer some explana-
tion as to the situation there.

We have got to ask ourselves then, as regards
the hundreds of school children who have got to leave
school at 14, if this Community College will offer
them any assistance. Does it set out in any form or
fashion to come to the aid of these people? Anyone
looking through this Bill will find that it is lacking
in anything by way of catering to this most suffering
group of young people who have to leave school at the
tender age of 14 in this modern day. To establish
the Community College without making any pro-
vision for taking them indoors is to my mind a
tragedy on the part of the Minister responsible for
setting out this institution.

Now, Sir, let us look at the institutions from
which this Community College is expected to draw its
body of students. It cannot be denied that, from the
statistics and figures referred to by the Hon. Leader

of the House in replies to questions asked by me ear-
lier this year with respect to the results of "O"
Level examinations by children from our various
schools as compared with our private schools, that
is evidence that the Community College will be
drawing on inferior material. The evidence is there.

The Minister himself was invited to produce
these statistical facts, and his figures tell us a
story that the Community College will be drawing on
inferior stuff; so you will find yourself, Sir, that
since the College will be drawing on this inferior
stuff, it will itself become an inferior institution
because its intake, its material, will be drawn from,
inferior sources.

Now, no one would want to cry out against the
boy or girl who has not been able to gain four or
five "O" Level certificates at one sitting. In fact,
we have some who have gained one and some have
gained two. Will this College have anything to offer
to these people?

The Minister was at pains to mention at one
stage, that there were two Sixth Form persons in
one school; on another occasion that there was one
and he eventually ended up by saying that temporary
housing would be at Sherbourne and that it would be
able to accommodate 350 students.

Mr. Speaker, if the Community College is to
make provision initially for 350 students, we would
be glad to hear from the Minister's mouth what stan-
dard of qualifications one must possess toenterthis
institution. That is important, very important, be-
cause if the Minister were to examine the statistics
from the Coleridge-Parry, the Alleyne School, the
Boys' and Girls' Foundation School and put them
alongside the Christ Church High School or the
Private Secondary Schools that are assisted by the
Government, he will see what the situation is,
6.20 p.m.

If the Minister were to examine the statistics
from the Coleridge-Parry School, the Alleyne School
and other schools, of children who, during the past
two or three years, have been seeking Sixth Form
admission at Harrison College or any of the other
schools where you will find a Sixth Form, he would
see and he would have to admit on the floor of this
House that in the course of two years he could find
nearly 315 students who have been asking for this
education that the Government pretended it would

The figures the Minister produced in answer
to questions by me on this particular matter, bear a
wealth of information today. But, Sir, we know the
Minister. I well remember in reply to a question
by me relating to children at Springer Memorial
School I asked if 300 children were being taught
under the trees at Springer Memorial. The Minister
replied that there were not 300 but 250, but of course
that was the Leader of the House.
When the present Minister of Education was
making one of his famous speeches, he said that


there were from 250 to 300 children receiving in-
structions under the trees at the Springer Memorial
School; but for the Leader of the House there were
only 2501 It pays us much better, Sir, in matters of
education, to listen to the Minister of Education,
and nobody else, if we are to get the truth. He ad-
mitted that there were from 250 to 300, but even
then he did not want to give an hon. member full
credit for mustering the facts on which he had based
his question. Nevertheless, he ended up near the 300
that I had learnt had been accommodated under the

All of these things we have to look into most
carefully, Sir. In this Bill all we see here is that
Agriculture, Commerce, Fine Arts, Liberal Arts,
Science and Technology will be taught. In the case
of Science, Sir, it does not tell us whether Science
will be taught from the kindergarten to the space
stage. (ASIDES) It does not tell us whether Science
is going to be taught from the kindergarten to the
moon stage; therefore one has to be very, very care-

As one goes on, Sir, there are the dangerous
proportions of this Bill. I think it was the senior
member for Christ Church who mentioned that we are
here to approve the Schedule to this Bill, but you
will find that all we do here you come here in the
first instance; you want to set up an institution; this
Honourable House is expected to approve of its es -
tablishment, but you will find that as soon as this
House has given its assent or approval, the Minister,
in his own good time and in his own good way, can
remain in his office and, from time to time, as often
as he likes, amend the terms of the Schedule. In
other words, all we do here today amounts to nothing.
Whenever we are finished, the Minister can take up
his pen and amend the terms of the Schedule; so it
amounts to our doing absolutely nothing here today.

For instance, Sir, you will find that this is the
age or period when the Government is giving edu-
cation free. Education, as I understand it, is free
at the Primary, Secondary and Higher Education
level. What is happening is that despite that, in this
age, you will find that the Government is now going
to establish a fee-paying Institution. Free Primary
education, free Secondary education, free University
education. Exactly what kind of College is going to be
this Barbados Community College that you have to
establish it as a fee-paying Institution? What is the
Government up to, we have to ask? We ask this
question with a view to protecting the people who
are expected to be catered to there.

The Minister, under the terms of the Schedule,
can revoke appointments of members of the Board.
We might agree that a Minister, under certain terms
and conditions, can revoke the appointment of a
member of a Board. But what we are saying is that
this is no one-man institution. It must be realized
that the Cabinet, or members of the Cabinet, are
mere Directors of a Company for this Honourable
House, and they must in turn, report to us. This is
not a case where the Cabinet, or the Minister acting

with the approval of his Cabinet, is revoking the
appointment of a member of the Board. It says
that the Minister can revoke his appointment if he
thinks it expedient. What kind of expediency? Poli-
tical? If he thinks it politically expedient, they could
have inserted the words "politically expedient".
That is all it amounts to. In other words, if you
have a member of a Board sitting at a meeting and
that member, male or female, has guts enough
to tell the Minister the truth on any particular mat-
ter and it is not in keeping with the Minister's
frame of mind, then the Minister can say that he
finds it expedient to revoke his or her appointment
to the Board.
6.30 p.m.

Is it then fair, reasonable and just? Now there
are one or two matters here in which you find the
Minister being in charge of everything, even with
personnel matters. Do you know, Sir, that even the
van Driver, the Messenger, the Maid who sweeps
and the Janitor come directly under the Minister at
this Community College? I know you still have some
Janitors who push a fairly long broom and let go-
the handle of the broom at times when Ministers
pass and annoy them, and while I wouldn't advocate
that any Janitor should let his broom slip and even
punch the Minister in his eye for seeing too much, I
do not feel that a Minister of Educationhas any right
to be directly in charge of the Van Driver, Messenger
and the Sweeper in an institution such as this. How
could we respect him? It is not good enough.

Other hon. members have already referred to the
fact that nothing can be done without the prior ap-
proval of the Minister. I have already said that this
Bill amounts to supporting young power in Barba-
dos, and we just do not want to introduce that here,
at least not with the support of hon. members on this
side, and somethinghas got to be done. Much is wrong
with the Bill, as we feel that it amounts to having
members of the Board being mere puppets to the
Minister. We should not turn our backs to the fact
that there are in our midst certain education in-
stitutions. We have the Rawlite Guild, the Barbados
Union of Teachers and the Parent-Teacher Bodies,
like the Parent Teacher Association at Harrison
College. The Rawlite Guild submitted a memoran-
dum on the Trades Training Centre and the Com-
munity College. One must know that the Rawlite
Guild is a body that has been functioning in this
Island from 1912 for Teacher Training. If this body
is a Teacher Training body, it must know something
about matters of education. This Guild submitted
a memorandum to the Ministry of Education, and up
to this day the Ministry of Education has not even
sent back to the Secretary, President or Chairman
of the Guild acknowledgment of receiptofthe mem-
orandum. That only goes to show us that when we
give this lot of power to this young Minister, we
have got real trouble.

We have seen here the Venezuelan Government
offering, free, gratis and for nothing, teaching of
Spanish in this Island. Mr. Speaker, we must know
how dear to us must be our Venezuelan and Latin

- --------r

American ties through the exchange of personnel
from one place to another. Travel has linked us so
closely that the teaching of Spanish is being pur-
sued in some of our Primary schools, and I believe
it is offered in almost all of our Grammar schools.
You will find that the Venezuelan Government wrote
the Ministry of Educationofferingclasses in Spanish.
They rented a building to begin the classes of in-
struction, and up to that stage you find the same
Minister of Education conveying that he wanted fur-
ther confirmation from the Government of Venezuela
itself, when the Government of Venezuela has its
own Ambassador stationed here in Barbados.

It is a matter where the Minister as a person
is not receiving and cannot command respect, nor
is he conducting himself in away inwhich he can get
the fullest co-operation from his Ministry. Inside
the Ministry of Education today is like a home that
has home troubles. Whenever the Minister goes in-
side, things are so hot that he is glad to get back
outside. Nothing is really being done. You will find
that the Minister on Monday morning had to arm
himself with a battery of lawyers to frighten three
school teachers. He had to get the lawyers to cite
right law and wrong law, confuse them and tell them
all sorts of things to extract from them, and made
promises to some of them that he would be nice to
them. We know that there was one lady who had more
waistline than the boys with the beards -the goats -
and when the allaying of fears was to be inserted
in a draft, she withdrew herself: by the time she
returned, it had already been in the joint release;
so there was nothing she could do in the face of
threats. You heard here today that there was a
representative body. How is it that a body meets
on Saturday, takes a unanimous decision on a matter,
and then three of them meet the Minister without
consulting even the principal mover of the Resolu-
tion that had been approved, or without consulting
any of the other members of the Executive? How
could they then pretend to be acting on behalf of any -
body other than the three or perhaps two of them?
They were not acting on behalf of anybody; they were
not charged with a mandate and had no authority what -
soever. They were the friends of the Ministerwhom
the Minister could bounce about and have them say
what he wanted them to say.

We are in apositionto say, Mr. Speaker, that the
people who are to make the Community College work
and make it productive and effective, where com-
munity life can be witnessed, are up inarms against
6.40 p.m.
Their fears have not been allayed; those fears
remain; and if those people who must know something
about education, if the Rawlite Guild, if the Harrison
College Parent-Teacher Body, if these people sub-
mit memoranda pointing out infact, we are to
wonder if a Headmaster has been employed as the
Head of a school which has a Sixth Form, and he
continues in his employment and gives satisfactory
service and you take away his Sixth Form the
lawyers will better be able to explain what you are
really doing to that officer. I am only a layman and

I will not trespass further into that province, but
the Rawlite Guild, for instance, drew to the attention
of the Government the facilities that are presently
available for technical and industrial training at the
artisan stage, the continuation stage and the tech-
nologist stage. Those are people who are experienced
in education. In other words, they know the educa-
tional system of Barbados backwards, so to speak.
They are experts there; so we are willing to be
guided by them; and we are maintaining that there
is the need for more Secondary-Modern schools,
wherever we find it, after investigating the needs
of the community to establish them.

There is the need for making full use of the
technical wings which are attached to our Grammar
Schools and Housecraft Centres and their facilities,
and better use should be made thereof. As the Raw-
lite Guild in its memorandum suggests, "All you
need do is this; train our young people and do not
let the training end there". Bring the knowledge
of these people with qualifications to the knowledge
of the Chamber of Commerce and kindredorganiza-
tions and let them know th -ou have a force on which
they can draw, a supply ready for service. The Raw-
lite Guild told us quite rightly that Sixth Form edu-
cation is regarded as the normal summit of all
Secondary Schools. That is what the Rawlite Guild
in its memorandum says. It says that a plan was
drawn up in 1949, a year to which I have referred
earlier, and there is a book entitled: "The London
Comprehensive Schools" where it makes it known
that the above concept of the Sixth Form has been
adopted by the School's Council for its own work-
ing purposes. Mr. Speaker, if these bodies of know-
ledge on matters of education adopt a stand such as
this on this matter, are we, on this side of the House,
not to stand up foursquare in support of these in-
stitutions which see and know of the lurking dangers
in establishing a Community College at this time
to duplicate or overlap the services which are al-
ready being provided for, turning the back, so to
speak, on services which need a shot in the arm,
but services which, in themselves, are crying out
as if to ask people to come and take them? That is
the situation here in this island. You will find that
there is a reluctance on the part of the present
Government to be in any way associated with any-
thing that the former Government did, however good,
when it was in office. Believe that if the Deep Water
Harbour was not such a money-earner, if it did not
occupy such a positive place in the life of this com-
munity, if our Hospital, if our Airport, Combermere
School, all of those things which the Barbados La-
bour Party built when it was in office and made
those services available to the community if this
Government could possibly dissociate itself from
having anything to do with, or carrying on any func-
tion in any of these places, that is what it would do.
That is the attitude of this present Government to
the things which the former Government did.
6.50 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, here you find that "The
Eyrie" can be developed to do what? It could be
developed to relieve the cramped conditions ob-
taining at the St. Leonard;. 9oecondary Schools, get


rid of the shift system and stop robbing children of
their share of instruction daily and relieve the con-
gestion that exists.

Sir, the Hon. Leader of the House has sat in the
Chair of the Ministry of Education, and he must know
that there is overcrowding in every one of our Pri-
mary schools in this island at the present moment.
You will find that mothers of children are still going
every possible Monday morning to some of the Head-
teachers asking them if they can find a place for
their children; but they are turned away. There is no
room for them in the inn.

In these conditions, would not the Government
be doing yeoman service to this community if they
reconstructed or renovated "The Eyrie" and re-
lieved the congestion in our Primary Schools and
Secondary Modern Schools?

I feel that I am being urged to wind up much of
my contribution, Sir; but, Mr. Speaker, this matter
of the Community College is an important one. We
feel that the Minister as a young man would like to
see something set up with which he is closely con-
nected; but that is not the point.

The present Minister of Education has ex-
pressed his desire to see what he calls a unified
teaching service in this island. If the Minister
really has that in his mind and would have the public
to believe that he is in earnest, how are we to com-
pare his statement on that occasion with his actions
as portrayed in this Bill? I say that because we have
been told that the provisions for staff at the Barbados
Community College far exceeds in some measure
similar provisions that obtain in other schools.

So now, Sir, if he really and truly wants to have a
unified teaching service in this country, are we to
understand that he will pay these top notch salaries
at the Community College, and as from the day fol-
lowing he will upgrade the salaries of all the teachers
in the Secondary Schools in this island? These are
questions, Mr. Speaker, that we have to study most
carefully and examine most seriously. This Bill
cuts right across what the Minister of Educationhas
been saying. He has toldus on several occasions that
he means to see our educational system strengthened
at the base. But, Sir, we really have to ask our-
selves if he intends to strengthen it at the base by
imposing this type of structure at the apex. That
is what we must really concern ourselves with,
Mr. Speaker.

Sir, I will not hold this House up any longer.
I feel that there are other hon. members who might
want to say something, and I know that in Committee
stage there are things which we will have to say. I
feel, Sir, that the provisions of this Bill and the Bill
itself are so far-reaching that we cannot do justice
to it in our second reading speeches. We cannot do
all that we would like to do.

We are setting up, or we are being asked to set
up or lend our support to the setting up of an edu-

national institution; but what we are in truth and in
fact being asked to do is to set up an institution
to do what has already been done to lay a founda-
tion that has already been laid to do for us what this
Community College will be asked to do.

The introducer of this Bill laid emphasis on
this post-"O" level training in four schools. I want
the Minister to explain what he really means. I want
to know if this Community College is to produce
"O" Level Certificates. That (whatwe understand.
I was waiting to hear the Minister say that it would
provide Advanced Level Certificates; but the Minis -
ter does not say so.

When you look at what the Bill sets out, you will
find that it tells you about Agriculture, Economics,
Finance, Technology and such other fields of educa-
tion as the Minister may from time to time deter-
mine. Mr. Speaker, I tell you here and now that we
have no plans at present for the teaching of Agri-

I am sorry that the Minister of Agriculture is
not in his place because I feelthathe would rise and
support me on an occasion such as this. When it
comes to Commerce, the hon. senior member for
Christ Church was at pains to point out that various
institutions, even private institutions, to which the
Government is lending considerable financial sup-
port are providing commercial training.
7.00 p.m.

I will tell you further, Sir, and the Government
ought to know this: The United States Government and
the United Kingdom Entry Certificate Officer are re -
fusing applicants, in some cases, who want to go
either to the United States or the United Kingdom
to pursue courses in Commerce. They are telling
some people to stay here, because we have in-
stitutions in Barbados where you can study all the
commerce you want to for industry in Barbados. We
have now begun to reach the depth of the seriousness
in some of the implications in this Bill. It is that
these two organizations are already in a position
to tell people who would rather go abroad to further
their studies at their own expense and not at the
expense of the Government they want to spend their
own money and to receive education where they feel
they could benefit from the education in the United
Kingdom or in the United States of America. I can-
not say the same thing with regard to people who
apply to g6 to Canada. The people are being told that
there is no need to give you permission to leave
Barbados, because you have institutions providing
you with instruction and teaching in Commerce
to meet the requirements of this Island. If these
officers are right, then are we to understand that
the Minister of Education is wrong? Are we main-
taining our Evening Institutes, our Technical In-
stitute and the wings of the various Secondary Schools?
Make them active; provide transportation for our
boys and girls to reach these places.

What is going to be the situation, Sir, when you
establish the Comm:nity College at "Eyrie" in re-


spect of boys and girls who live in your own con-
stituency, 19 miles from Bridgetown Pie Corner
in St. Lucy, Boscobelle in St. Peter, the Risk in St.
Lucy, St. Philip and so on? All of these children
will want to go to the Community College. The
Community College is not inthe heart of Bridgetown;
it is on another two-mile journey out. What pro-
vision, Mr. Speaker, is being made for these people?
We are urging upon the Minister to re-examine this
whole scheme and re-appraise the whole situation,
and let us have something better. He can rely on
the support of this side of the House as soon as he
carries out a survey of the educational needs of
these people.

Mr. Speaker, mention has been made of the
issuing of a White Paper on education at this time.
I have been stressing it; I have been calling for it
in the columns of my newspaper from time to time.
We need a White Paper on education. Mr. Speaker,
between 1962 and today there has been a considerable
amount of bungling as well as fiddling with education
in this Island. You hear one thing today from one
Minister, and you see or hear something else from
another Minister. They contradict themselves; but
in the end they are either misreported, or you call
a team of teachers together, put your lawyers on
them and get what you want from them. That is what
is happening in Barbados. But those of us who know
the benefit of education ought to be more careful.
Sir, the implications of a Bill should be examined
in their true perspective, because we feel on this
side of the House that all that is in here far tran-
scends the realm of Party politics. Hon. members
on that side of the House, even if they did not be-
fore they came in here, have seen or ought to have
learned enough today on the discussion from hon.
members on this side on this Bill that they should
by this time have an appreciation of the benefits to
be derived from education. We have done all we could
on this side today to explain, to expound and to show
it to them in its many forms; but, Sir, we can carry
hay to a horse, but we cannot make it eat.

Anyone who wants to feel within himself that he
has discharged his conscience on a matter of vital
interest to this community, should stand up and let
his voice be heard on this matter of the Barbados
Community College. It is vitally important because
here, Sir, we seek to make provision for the un-
known the ones we know are suffering and are
really in need of having something done for themt
to lift them up from becoming lawless andwayward.
I speak again, Sir, of those who leave school at the
age of 14 and have to roam the streets begging alms,
knocking from door to door seeking jobs which they
are not qualified to do. My God, Sir, are we to un-
derstand that a Minister of Education who would
pretend to have an interest in people cannot see
around him the people who have the greatest need?
Will he not carry out a survey in his own schools
to find out what he is turning out what he is cutting
off, so to speak, without a hope?

Formerly, I believe I can say up to about 1960
or so, the Department or Ministry of Educationused

to issue what was called the "School Leaving Cer-
tificate" in order to help children, who had passed
Seventh Standard and were promising andhadpassed
in English and Arithmetic, to get a job.
7.10 p.m.

These children were issued with a School-
Leaving Certificate which was acceptable to some
of the business community of this Island, and it helped
those people get a job. In other words, if at the time
they were issued with these Certificates they were
not even sufficiently equipped, it was still a Cer-
tificate to let them into further training while at
the same time receiving a pittance for their la-
bours. Sir, after the 'King Jah-jah's came topower,
after the Democratic Labour Party Government took
office, they stopped the School-Leaving Certificate
the only hope of the fourteen year olds, and have
given them nothing instead. They have applied their
energies, and after steeping themselves in "knowing
not" for six full years, have come up now with a
Community College to make provision, as I said, for
we know not whom.

I believe, Mr. Speaker, that I have said enough
on this Bill at this stage; and except when Ilook
at the notes on what the Hon. Introducer had to say
on this, we are left to wonder whether this College
is going to make provision for Fifth Form or Sixth
Form education. One other thing I would like to
have the Minister address his mind to is this: Get-
ting back to this Common Entrance Examination, the
Minister will admit that his present system makes
provision for places for more boys to enter the
Secondary Schools or Grammar Schools I am re-
ferring to those whom they are willing to say
'passed the examination' than for girls; but do
you know what is really and truly the position in this
particular matter? I challenge the Minister to deny
that more girls have been passing the Common En-
trance Examination than boys; so if you findthat the
policy of the present Government is to make pro-
vision for more boys than girls, well, Sir, may the
Lord have mercy on those girls who really and
truly pass the examination, but have got to be told
either that they failed, or that there is no room for
them in the inn! In other words, continuing this
Common Entrance Examination and not makingpro-
vision of school places for these children, is danger-
ous on the part of the present Government, because
there are some boys and girls who enter the examin-
ation rooms with confidence in themselves. We admit
there are many others who are nervous; the parents
are nervous; but there are many children who come
out and show you what they have done. They may
not all be right, but nevertheless you can satisfy
yourself to a reasonable degree as to how many
of these children from a school have passed; the
Headteachers must know. This is whathashappened
in a case in my own constituency. Already with
the last results a schoolteacher called on me and
told me that he could not explain how they could say
that a particular boy or girl had failed. Mr. Speaker,
the Headteachers know their children; they know
whom they send to sit the examination, but the pres-
ent system is such that when too many pass, they


have got to fail. The system is rotten and corrupt.
It is unfair and immoral to continue with the Com-
mon Entrance Examination and not provide adequate
school places for the people who pass. That is our
contention in this matter. So you will see, Mr.
Chairman I am sorry, Mr. Speaker,......

Mr. SPEAKER: I am sorry too it is not Mr.

Mr. HINDS: When is the Leader of the House
suspending for dinner? (Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I am
waiting on you.) I can move the suspension now. I
am not finishing in haste. I may not continue when I
come back. (Hon. N. W. BOXILL: I have told you that
if you do not bring food in here, these hogs would
not keep talking for so long.)

Mr. Speaker, I am on my feet, and I take the most
serious objection to what the hon. junior member for
St. Thomas has said. He is the only bloody hog that
comes about in here going and snatching for food.


Mr. SPEAKER: In view of grave disorder, this
Sitting now stands suspended for one hour.
7.20 p.m.

On re-assembling,

Mr. SPEAKER: On the suspension of the Sitting,
the hon. junior member for St. Peterwas addressing
the Chair. If he had not concluded his speech, he
may now resume it.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker we find the Community
College making itself available for teaching Liberal
Arts. The term "Liberal Arts" ought never to have
been employed in anything connected with the Com-
munity College. When we bear in mind that we al-
ready have a Liberal Arts College which has been
before named the College of Arts and Science, it
gives us a further feeling that there is going to be
a cutting across or duplicating of the functions of
the various institutions which are already in exis -
tence. I am sure that it will be found out to be one
of those regrettable steps or features in an estab-
lishment such as a Community College to be offering
Liberal Arts. We are still somewhat in doubt as to the
age range of the children who are to be accommo-
dated at this Community College, and in the absence
of such information, we just do not know where we
stand in such a matter. We would like to see some
of the functions which are nowto be discharged by the
Minister himself, attended to more properly by the
Board. We may find the Board approving of a course
of instruction, and there is no reason why the Min-
ister cannot or would not make his submission to
the Board for its approval when it comes to the
course of instruction to be given at this College.

Mr. Speaker, those are a few of the things
which we would like to see implemented in the Bill
if this College is to function to the credit of the
community at all. We are all here groping in the
dark since we do not have any idea at all as to what

this system will cost us, and for those reasons we
would like to urge on the Minister to review the
whole structure of things. We do not want the Com-
munity College to be launched in Septemberandthen
find, within a few short terms, that there is no
possibility of its continuing or even beginning to
show that it is established or founded with good in-
tentions, and we are asking that this matter be taken
seriously by the Hon. Leader of the House and see
that the Bill is put in its proper perspective.

Mr. SPEAKER: The question is that this Bill be
now read a second time.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I, too,
would have wished that these proceedings would
have ended earlier, but it would be completely
wrong for me to sit in silence ona Bill as important
as this. I am going to try to control myself con-
siderably, but this Bill calls for stronglanguage. It
is dishonest in its entirety. The Opposition came
in here this morning with the feeling that our atti-
tude was going to be, as has been said by some hon.
members, that if the necessity for a Community
College is proved to us, we will agree with it, but we
would state, aswe have stated, that it is not a ques-
tion of priority. You could not possibly say, coming
to this without any feeling or politics but merely
examining the position of education in Barbados, that
this is more necessary than finding places for chil-
dren who have passed the Common Entrance Exam-
ination and cannot get into a school. I am now
appealing to hon. members on the other side, or
to some of them; picture to yourself that you were
a small boy with ability and found it impossible to
get into a school, not because you cannot take ad-
vantage of an education, but because the Government
did not provide sufficient places for you. Think of
the frustration through life; you would go bitter at
the fact that it is not your fault; it is nothing lack-
ing in you, but in a Government which would prefer
to spend money on something which, in itself, might
be commendable, but is not as necessary as finding
a place where you could go to school. That child
would go through life bitter and probably anti-
Government. I smile because I think of myself, of
the refusal of the Government of 1918-19 to permit
me to go to read Law straight way, even though I
had the good fortune to win the Barbados Scholar-
ship. I was bitter from that day, andpossibly that is
the cause of my general attitude in politics since

I was bitter at the thought that, as things were
fifty years ago, the kind of people who were in the
Government did not like the idea of my being in the
position of becoming a barrister; but it has never
left me in life, that feeling of antagonism to some-
body who represses you simply because he is
stronger than you and he is in a position to repress
you. It is going to happen to hundreds, maybe thous-
ands of Barbadian children, if we continue to indulge
in extravagant expenditure in one respect when that
money should have been spent on finding means of
educating the children. That is our first approach to
it. I would go further backandask: "Is it a necessity


at all?" I think I can understand the attitude of the
Hon. Leader of the House. I say this in all fairness,
and I say it as objectively as possible. I honestly
think that the Hon. Leader of the House is in a most
awkward position. I think subconsciously that he can-
not forget how he has been treated. He is dealing
with education and pushing forward the view of his
successor in something which he himself, when he
was Minister of Education, did not push. He has got
to plead somebody else's cause, somebody who has
supplanted him. He cannot do justice to the subject.
The hon. member is as fluent as most people we
meet that dangerous fluency of talking at length
and using beautiful phrases which mean nothing, and
when he is finished he has said nothing. That was
his attitude, his conduct and his display today. But
what we, on this side, feel worst of all is this; it was
sheer hypocrisy to try to pretend that this had nothing
to do with abolishing Sixth Forms when all of his
arguments led to that. What did he say? Specious,
pettifogging lawyers sometimes use arguments like
8.35 p.m.

"The Minister has not said that he will abolish
Sixth Forms." Now, could anything be more specious
and I use the word "dishonest" than that, when we
all know Barbados is a small place and there are
no Cabinet secrets in this Island. Do not think that
they are. We all know that the Minister wanted to
start a Sixth Form College by that name, and to stop
Sixth Forms in Secondary Schools. We all know that
the Prime Minister was opposed to that idea, and we
all know that this is a compromise -not just a com-
promise Bill, but a compromise of conscience.

Of course if you prove it is the duty of the
Government to prove that there is a necessity for
this of course we will say "yes". It is not for us
to say that it is necessary. You start with the know-
ledge that for over 100 years you have had Sixth
Forms at Harrison College. You would have to prove
that that system is a failure. Many a person will
tell you historians and those who like to look up
records will tell you that Harrison College's results
for many years were always in the first six of all the
schools, including England in the British Empire.
That standard has been ours to keep. Surely
if you have a system that for over 100 years has
kept up a reputation for the people it turned out and
a standard of scholarship, surely it is for the Gov-
ernment to prove that it should end. You will have to
prove, in short, that the Sixth Form systemhas out-
lived its usefulness or was never any good and that
it has dragged on for too long a time.
But when the Leader of the House comes in here
and states that the Minister of Education has never
said that Sixth Forms should be abolished when he
has been urging it and preaching it even to the ex-
tent that it was intended that this institution would
be called a Sixth Form College, it is not fair to the
House or to the general public. It just may be not a
deliberate, but an unconscious attempt or a sort
of habitual twisting of language.

It is certainly misleading the public, but it is
only part of the pattern of this whole Bill which is
stink with hypocrisy and lying. You say you are
not doing this, but you intend to do it as soon as
you get into power. With all this power in the hands
of the Minister,he will be able to say: "I am going
to do what I like." He will have his way that a Sixth
Form should be abolished, and he himself will take
over the Principalship of this college.

Let nobody fool themselves; I know what I am
saying and hon. members know what I am saying.
Barbados is a small place and people talk. Cabinet
secrets may be Cabinet secrets inside the Cabinet
but not outside. I will say again that the minute you
say that you intend to abolish Sixth Forms,you have
got to prove that they have outlivedtheir usefulness.

Harrison College and Lodge School in my
time at any rate the Classical side was at Harrison
College and the Mathematical brains were at Lodge
School, and Combermere was recognized for English
as well as Modern Studies for which it had a repu-
tation throughout the West Indies.

In short, Mr. Speaker, the system will have to
be proved to have been either inherently or to have
become, because of modern thought, something
medieval. Nobody can prove that. If you have some-
thing and you want to replace it with something else,
you have to prove that the something else is better
than the thing you are replacing. No one can claim
that Barbados can affordto make experiments wildly.
If you are a millionaire, you can afford to build a
house today and destroy it tomorrow; but no one can
claim that Barbados can afford to do that.

Let the Leader of the House say that what I am
going to say now contradicts the truth, that this is
one man's idea. We read about something that is
taking place somewhere else and someone says: "Let
us try it here, too." This College should be called
Sandiford's College. It is one man's idea; this is a
compromise that has taken place between the mem-
bers of the Cabinet, and the Bill is drafted in such a
way that the Minister can get all that he wants after
this Bill is passed. In spite of all this talk about not
abolishing Sixth Forms, it can be done from the day
after this Bill is passed. It does not take a lawyer
to see that.

I pitied, I really pitied the blundering way in
which the Leader of the House had to introduce this
Bill, and because he knew that what he had to say
could not be said without being sheer hypocrisy. He
knows that if you have this Community College you
automatically are making Sixth Forms superfluous,
and as the hon. member for Christ Church said, you
are in fact saying that you do not need Sixth Forms
if you are taking these things under your wing.

Before I go further as regards putting forward
my special point, I should like to dealwith the points
made by the Leader of the House. What I am going
to say and the point I will bring forward will prove
why the Leader of the House had to blunder in in-


troducing this Bill. I know that he has been per-
suaded to agree with the establishment of the
Community College and to agree with the abolition
of Sixth Forms. He was not always of that persuasion.

Look at the way in which he puts forward his
arguments. Of the Government Grammar Schools
there are four with Sixth Forms. The aim of the
Government is to establish an institution catering
mainly for the G.C.E. type of people and for young
people working who wish to resume their studies.

"The Minister has not said that they will abol-
ish Sixth Forms. He says that the Community College
is for those who because of limited facilities can-
not now enjoy Sixth Form teaching." Is that not
hypocrisy? Was it not the duty of the Leader of the
House to go on to show to the House that you have
Sixth Forms, but that they are not big enough to
handle all the people who can get in?
8.45 p.m.
Was it not his duty to say and I am coming to the
greatest of the hypocrisies that appeared in his
presentation "We have to consider nowwhetherwe
should not make all of them have Sixth Forms pos-
sibly by enlarging them to take all of these students"
- there are three alternatives, not two "or to
build a new College and call it what you will to take
Sixth Form pupils or" -this is point that may have
been made when I was outof the House, and I missed
practically all of the hon. member for St. Peter's
speech "to combine certain schools and have one
Sixth Form for three or four or all the Northern
schools." Let us say: one Sixth Form for Foundation
and St. Philip for this area; so that just as all the St.
Michael's Girls go now to Combermere, the
Coleridge-Parry and other schools in that area could
take anybody of Sixth Form calibre whether from a
Primary school, a Private School, or a Secondary
school that exists now. That is another alternative.
I regret if that point has been put, and I am merely
repeating it. To me that is a clear alternative.

But when you have and again I use it without
saying that the Hon. Leader of the House is con-
sciously being a hypocrite, but the arguments are pure
hypocrisy. Imagine telling this House imagine tell-
ing a group of mentally defective children that it
would be improper to put finance in this Bill; that
you are only passing the principle of this Bill to-
night. Could you insult half-wits, morons, with that
argument? I am asking you to vote for a building; I
am not telling you what it will cost; you are only
voting for the principle of having the building. Would
you tell that to a man in a Mental Asylum and hope
to'convince him? This building may cost $100,000
or $900,000, and you must vote for it; the bill for
whatever it will cost will come down later. Could
there be a more insulting argument used to a House
of Assembly? Are we to be told: you must vote for
this whatever it will cost and you will hear what it
will cost later on? The Hon. Leader of the House
made no attempt to tell us what it will cost, and we
are to sit down here and vote for a Bill to spend
money and we alone can spend money and be
told that we are nothing to do with what it will cost;

we will hear later what it will cost; vote for it nowl
Well, if I and this Opposition never voted against a
Bill before, we will vote against it tonight. We are
not afraid of members of the Government going and
telling the public: "We were trying to get a place
built so that your children who cannot get into
school now because there is no room forthem, could
get in, and those fellows in the Opposition voted
against it." Do you think we are afraid of that?

Sir, how many people in this Island would have
the slightest respect for us if they were told: "Those
boys in the Opposition voted for a Bill to spend money,
although we did not tell them how much money the
building would cost"? Only a fool would vote for
a Bill of this sort. Fancy using the language that
it is improper to put into this Bill something about
money. I was very careful to take down what the
hon. member was saying. You have your numbers
and you can do anything, and you are doing it.
We are glad over this side that you are doing it,
because Nemesis is around the corner.Mussolini
could not act worse than the Prime Minister of this

Sir, this is totalitarianism. I would realise what
is the position of most hon. members inthe Cabinet.
When your conscience smites you, and you begin to
assert yourself, you will be pushed back. Last
Tuesday we pointed out to the Leader of the House
that what we were saying over here about promises
with this broadcasting was correct. You pointed out
to him that he was wrong, and he threatened to
resign if his Cabinet differed from him. He seems
to have made mice of you, or to confirm the mice-
like attitude which operates in you while you sit
over there. Physical courage is nothing; God made
a man big, and he can hit a small man and get away
with it. Moral courage is all that matters. If a man
with a conscience cannot stand up even to his boss,
his parents, if they are wrong, or to anybody when
he is wrong..... (ASIDES)

Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the House talks
about "despise", but he would not reach so far as
despising members who act like that. You do not
waste your time on things that are beneath being
despised. Then the hon. member goes on to say that
"I just repeated two alternatives." I have answered
that by referring to a third alternative: combine
certain schools and have one in a zone, if you like.
Tell the people that they must go to that one school
which will teach up to Sixth Form. I repeat, show
what that will cost. I refer to building additional
places in one school; show what the Community
College will cost, and show that the Community
College is cheaper before you ask us to agree to
a Bill of this sort. If you can reach the stage where
the financial side will have to wait for a financial
Resolution for ts cost to come down good Heavens!
Imagine anybody'-outside of an asylum allowing those
words to cross his lips! "It is improper to put it
in this Bill which is only on the principle of the Bill
as to whether there should be a College or not."
Imagine anybody dreaming of insulting any sane
human being by telling him that "Whatever it will


cost, you are only voting for the principle of having

What is to prevent and I am trying not to verge
on what, maybe is to come this Mussolini-type of
using your numbers to get anything through, honest
or dishonest? I say I do not want to verge on any-
thing that is to come. But take, for instance, as
another illustration of the totalitarian methods of
this Government and for God's sake keep it up
because the public will listen. Are you to come in
here today with a Resolution handed to us yesterday
evening for $ 1/2 million and say you are doing it
all tonight? Could there be a greater instance of just
using your numbers to act as undemocratically as it
is possible to act? They do not give you any time
to think it over. Barbados is not a rich place. am
constantly reminding you that it is not as rich as
Trinidad. Barbados is to spend $ 1/2 million, and
we are not to have time to think over it and go into
any details. Are we going to sit down till five o'clock
tomorrow morning while the Leader of the House
answers questions?
8.55 p.m.

I am not going any further on that, Mr. Speaker,
because I would be in danger of saying something
that should be left until the Resolution comes before
the House, and then, as I say, I will answer to the
hon. member's point. When the hon. member came
to the objections that are being made about the
power of one man, could anything be more specious
than the attempt by the Leader of the House to an-
ticipate that being thrown at him? He said we are
saying that now, but there was a time when the Gov-
ernor was the sole man, and then he goes on to say
that Keith Walcott, one member of the Governor-
in-Executive Committee, had sole power.

That is a plain, blunt Mr. Speaker, I shall not
be unparliamentary undiluted lie, and the hon.
member knows it. There was never a time when any
member of the Governor-in-Executive Committee
had sole power. Until the Ministerial system came
up, there was no such things the possibility of any-
body having sole power. The Governor-inExecutive
Committee was purely advisory. Sir Grattan Bushe
it does not much matter if this seems to be
bringing tales out of school once complained to
us in Executive and we were a mixed group; we
were the old pre-Ministerial State and said he
.could not understand his position here. He said we
were his Executive; he sent down a Bill and we ob-
jected to it; we did not support him. No Governor
ever ruled this country in that sense. In the limited
special spheres that Colonial Governors had, in
exercise of the prerogative of King or Queen, as
the case may be, were matters like pardon and
things of that nature, but the Colonial Office always
fought this Island and this Island fought back. What-
ever we might say of Colonialism and the rest of it,
if you were to see some of the documents and des -
patches sent, the Colonial Office was always telling
Governors that their duty was to fight for the masses
against the planters and merchants of Barbados. I
can say it now. Colonialism is over, and because

some people may sometimes say that they were not
always bad, the whole history of Barbados for, I
would say, 200 years, maybe not 300 years, has been
a history of the Colonial Office sending down des -
patches. Take Pope Hennessy and those riots. Ithas
been the history of a Governor fighting the House
of Assembly of planters and merchants; and when
more and more books about the old Colonial system
are published, you will agree with me. This talk about
Governors having sole power is absolutely untrue.

Keith Walcott was the mouthpiece of the planters
and merchants of that day. There were times when he
was very liberal, but on the other hand he was their
mouthpiece. I have heard him say from his place in
this House of Assembly that he had been told to
bring down this Bill, but he was not in favour of it,
and he was going to vote against it. He was intro-
ducing a Bill and saying that.

The hon. member, as we all know, was once in
war-time President of the Oxford Union, the great
Debating Society in Oxford, and he learnt all these
beautiful mellifluous phrases that mean nothing.
You sit down at night for hours and you take a dic-
tionary or word book not the hon. member alone,
but most speakers at the Oxford Union -and you get
out a lot of these phrases and go back to Pope and
Dryden and all that and trot out a few pretty phrases
that mean nothing. Unfortunately, for some people
it is a good change; the present Lord Chancellor and
other Lord Chancellors have been trained at the
Oxford Union; but to some people it becomes part o0
them, and they cannot make a simple statement
without saying something that does not necessarily
have any truth in it. We have had so many instances
of the Leader of the House gettingup and off the cuff
saying something without the slightest respect as to
whether it is true or not. One of these statements is
that Colonial Governors had power of life or death.
I was rude enough, Mr. Speaker, you will remember,
to call out that a jury of twelve men directed by a
Chief Justice has power of life or death nobody

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, on a point of
order, ordinarily I would not interrupt the hon. mem-
ber because I do not think that anything he is saying
is relevant to the discussion that we are having. But
he has said some remarks about mewhichare com-
pletely offensive: that I have a habit of saying things
without wondering or without thinking whether they
are true or not. I take exception to that.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: If the hon. member
wants to take exception, I will, because it is unpar-
liamentary, withdraw, only reminding the hon. mem-
Mr. SPEAKER: I take it the hon. member has

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Oh yes, Sir, only re-
minding the hon. member of what he not only said
but published in the Press about the disendowment
of the Church, when the Church had to correct him.
That is only one instance.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, on another
point of order because he has misrepresented me;
but if it is true that I am dishonest or I am a liar,
it is also true that I came into public life with him
and that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Mr. SPEAKER: That is not a point of order.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Why did he bring that
out? Look how many people belong to a Party, and the
members of that Party discover, sometimes too late,
that they have admitted a black sheep into the fold!

Mr. SPEAKER: I think we may proceed with
the Community College and not look at things from
the standpoint of various Oxford Colleges.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: The hon. member
talked about irrelevance. What am I doing but just
taking what I wrote down as the hon. member said
it and replying to it? How is that irrelevant? The
hon. member says he has never been opposed to
too much power being given to one man. I say you
make these mellifluous statements and do not
realise that sometimes you contradict yourself a
few lines lower down a few minutes after. He said
that the Minister must act within the context of
the Party, but you are not giving the Minister too
much power. He says that the Minister must act
within the view of the Party and then says im-
mediately after in effect that it is an educational
matter and not a political matter and the Minister
is given power to act by himself. He said it would
not be the first time that a Minister could act by
himself, and then added that he acts within the con-
text of the Party. He said how the system has been
developed in which Cabinet is not responsible for
the whole thing, but the Minister to whom power
has been given, and then added "within the context
of the Party, within the view of the Party". He used
the word "context" andthenhe went on to say "with-
in the view of the Party". In this case, one of the
things he said was right. It is an open secret hon.
members know it that the Cabinet eventually agreed
to let Sandiford have a chance and let them see
what he could put forward because it may succeed.

I say again that Sandiford read something. We
all read something from time to time, and those
of us who are interested in education naturally read
a lot about education. The idea of a Comprehensive
school is put up; the idea of age-grouping is put up.
All things like that are put up from time to time.
All I am saying is that people read things, they have
a new idea; "we have not got it in Barbados; so let
us try it in Barbados." That is how this Sixth Form
College arose, and it is in the newspaper that Mr.
Sandiford said to abolish Sixth Forms, and the Prime
Minister said "No", and since that time there has
been this talking and coming together trying to have
a compromise, and this Bill is a result.

Now, Mr. Speaker, this Bill will pass and will
be one of the best things for us at the next election,
because it is one whole story, I repeat, of hypocrisy,
of double-dealing, of squeezing people. I did hear a

snap of what the hon. member for St. Peter said
about those school teachers who purported to be a
delegation from the Teachers Association, and there-
fore I shall not say much about it as it seems as if
he was very thorough in his condemnation; but that
is only a part of the backdoor, Nicodemus night-like
dealings, going by night in the dark and having little
confabs, and later on trying to get your views car-
ried. Out comes the Prime Minister and spoils
things by saying not to abolish Sixth Forms, and I
suppose it is best to deal at this stage with that aspect
of Mr. Sandiford's conduct. I do not know either of
these three schoolteachers. I do not know if I have
ever seen them. I have heard that the lady is a very
nice lady, that she would not stoop to anything dirty,
but that she could be persuaded not to differ from
the others. I would not say anything more than that.
9.05 p.m.

I would not say anything more than that, but no
language could be too strong for condemning these
three people. Mrs. Skeete, it may be from weakness
and the other two from lack of character you have
Officers of an Association......

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, on a point of

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am not giving way to
the hon. member. I ask Your Honour to rule on the
point of order.

Mr. SPEAKER: He has to make it before I can

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, in my view,
it is grossly improper for the hon. member to refer
to persons who are not members of this House and
who are therefore unable to defend themselves, as
possessing lack of character. He has no right to do it.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I ask Your Honour to
rule. I/ it out of order for me to attack people be-
caus'e they cannot come into this House and defend
themselves? Could there be a more preposterous
statement than that? That members of this House
cannot attack other people merely because they can-
not come into this House and defend themselves?
They can defend themselves; they cangetona public
platform, or write to the Press or anything. That is
the sort of thing we have to put up with from the
Hon. Leader of the House making preposterous
statements which he knows to be untrue. I am going
on. Imagine my being told that I cannot......

Mr. SPEAKER: I have not ruled that the Hon.
Leader of the Opposition has contravened any Stand-
ing Order so far, but I would warn the hon. member
to be wary of Standing Order 26 (9) referring to the
conduct of Members of either House of the Legisla-
ture who shall not be referred to exceptupon a sub-
stantive motion.
Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: If Iwere a bettingman,
I would know that that was coming to me today. I have
the answer to that. I am not referring to Mr.
Sandiford in the Senate; I am referring to the Minis -


ter of Education in the Cabinet. (Laughter) That is
not funny. That laugh shows a vacant mind. If Mr.
Sandiford had made any statement in the Upper
House and I commented on it here, I would be out
of order; but if Mr. Sandiford sits in his office and
vilely sends for three unfortunate people......

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: The hon. member is out of
order. How can he say that somebody sits in his

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Is the hon. member
saying that I am out of order?

Mr. SPEAKER: I understand the hon. member to
say that he rose on a point of order.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: No matter how specious he
makes his argument, he is speaking about a Member
of the Other Place, and to say that such a member
sits in his office and vilely summons people to see
him is an attack and a reflection on the character
and the practice of the hon. member, which has to
be resented.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, if it takes
until 6 o'clock tomorrow morning, I will stand on my
feet and speak. Imagine the hon. member putting
that to Your Honour, that because he is a Senator
I cannot criticise his conduct outside of the Senate.

Mr. SPEAKER: What Standing Order 26 (9) says
is that the conduct of Her Majesty and Members of
either House of the Legislature shall not be referred
to except upon a substantive motion.... the conduct of
members of either House of the Legislature. So I
advise the Hon. Leader of the Opposition to be wary
about referring to the conduct of any member of the
Other Place.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: The conduct of a mem-
ber of the Senate on the cricket field I cannot criti-
cise? Does the word "conduct" mean conduct at all
times? "Conduct" means the conduct in the Senate.
I wish Your Honour would read the books.

Mr. SPEAKER: Let us get this straight. It is my
ruling that counts and nobody else's.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: It is your ruling that
counts as long as you go by the proper practice.

Mr. SPEAKER: I wish all hon. members were
aware of that, rightly or wrongly......

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: But do not interpret
a thing wrongly when it is blatantly wrong. (ASIDES)

Mr. SPEAKER: It is good even at this stage for
one to try to be funny. The conduct of a member of
either House of Parliament, if that member happens
to be a Minister in that House and the reference
is to something he has done or said or put forward
in connection with his Ministry is, in my view, rightly
or wrongly and my view alone carries here... (ASIDES)

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Order!

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Order, what Imagine
a Speaker feeling about for something which he
knows not to be right! The conduct of a Senator, I
repeat, the conduct of a Senator in the street, the
conduct of a Senator at a dinner table, the conduct
of a Senator on a cricket field is something which
cannot be attacked? You are not talking to children

Mr. SPEAKER: I thought I had made myself
plain. I said the conduct of a member of the Other
Place may not be referred to except upon a sub-
stantive motion, and that conduct in respect of which
he is a Senator and a Minister is nothing to do with
his conduct on the street or on the cricket field, and
particularly when the subject matter of this discus -
sion is in connection with the subject matter of edu-
cation, of which he is a Minister. That is what I am
saying and that is what I rule.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Your Honour's ruling
somehow did not apply when the hon. junior member
for St. Peter was saying in stronger language what I
am saying now.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. junior member for St.
Peter was speaking in stronger language, but in
parliamentary language.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: It is your duty to the
House to command the respect of the House. All
right. Let us forget whether Mr. Sandiford tele-
phoned these people or not.
9.15 p.m.

These three officers of the Association, having
unanimously agreed to a Resolution whereby they
are telling the public that this thing needs more
consideration, that it is going to hurt them, that
they have no security, get a telephone message and
go to Mr. Sandiford's office. Then appears a State-
ment in the Advocate Newspaper. Am I out of order
in referring towhatthe Advocate Newspaper says?

Look at the hypocrisy of this Statement. Look
at the way in which they are misleading the public by
saying that Mr. Sandiford says -as if they were little
boys trying to learn in Primary School they attempt
to tell the public that a delegation from the Associa-
tion went to the Minister and had talks with him and
their fears were allayed.

What is the meaning of the word "delegation"?
How can there be a delegation if someone did not
delegate you to do something? These three people
who, for the self respect of the Association, should
be fired before the end of this week, or nobody will
have any respect for the Association, sat down and
unanimously agreed to tell the Minister that they
are afraid, that they are not sure of their jobs if
this Bill goes through.

But, Sir, when sent for by the Minister, they do
not say that they must go back to our Association. I


have not met anyone connected with the Association
who did not tell me that they only knew yesterday
afternoon they only knewafter ithadhappened. And
I have met several members of the Association.

Now what is that but and I repeat the word -
a hypocritical way of allowing Sandiford to have his
own way, irrespective of whether it is for the good
of Barbados or not. What answer is there to the
query by more than one member: "Why have you
done this selected something when you should be
having a complete investigation into the educational
system of Barbados, which is what is needed at this

To get back to my original point, can it be
proved that all these things that have been mentioned
from time to time the Technical Institute, the Hil-
ton Hotel School, the academic Sixth Forms and all
these things have left a gap which can be best filled
by a Community College? Surely the onus is on the
Government to prove that the Community College
is what is needed to fill this gap. If it can be proved
that the gap can only be filled by this, then the Gov-
ernment has a case for saying: "Accept the prin-
ciple of a Community College." They do not have a
case, but they are askingus to accept it at this stage.

Those people to whom I have just referredhave
not, I think, done the case of the Government any
good, because if you can get this backhand attempt,
this stabbing of the Association in the back, leaving
the Association with approval of a Resolution and
then backing down just because God knows what
strong-armed methods, what mental strong-armed
methods were used when a man has .certain views
you can cajole him, persuade him or buy him off.

God knows what threats were used to these
three unfortunate people. I hope that the Association,
in consideration of their own self-respect, will get
rid of them before the week is out because they did
not express the views of the Association, and they
were not a delegation. It was a misuse of the word
'delegation' a stupid misuse of the word.

I will now, I hope briefly, deal with the points in
the Bill affecting the position of the Minister. It may
be that this will be a goodthing; but how can one ex-
pect to persuade any rational, thinking human being
that this Bill does not make the Minister an absolute

If we go by what the Leader of the House has
said, the Cabinet has shed its responsibility and
handed over its responsibility in certain things to a
single Minister. If that is so, then Mr. Sandiford is
the sole judge of practically everything of importance
in the running of this College, not only seeing after
the maids, or the ground staff or the man who sweeps
the yard, but everything that is essential.

To start off with it has been mentioned al-
ready, but I am merely reiterating it Clause 3 (2)
of the Bill says that the aim of the College shall be to
provide a place of education offering instruction in all

or any of the following fields of education, that is to
say Agriculture, Commerce, Fine Arts, Liberal
Arts, Science, Technology. But not one single word
is said by the Minister about Agriculture.

Is it necessary to get some improvement, is it
necessary to train people to do something more than
to cut canes or burn them down? Not one single word
has been said as to what is behind this. When it comes
to Commerce, that has been dealt with. The clause
goes on to say "and in suchother fields of education
as the Minister may from time to time determine."

Who can say if the Minister will not state that
Sanskrit shall be taught in this island, or that with
so many East Indian traders in this island you must
learn Hindi? There is no one to stop him.

I have no doubt that if the Minister were ever to
dream of standing before the electorate but he is
not going to stand before the electorate; he will move
from the Senate to beingthe Principal ofthis College.
That is in the air.

Mr. Speaker, we go down to Clause 6 (3) which
says that 'the Minister may from time to time by
order amend the provisions of the Schedule.'
Throughout this Bill you will find that the Minister is
in absolute control, that he has absolute power.

It is sheer nonsense to say that to give one man
absolute power does not mean that he will abuse it.
You cannot do that in a Bill. You do not know what is
to happen. Human nature being what it is, you must
have safeguards. If he were a saint or an Archbishop,
you should not give him absolute powers. Even in
Church matters, there should be a Synodor something
of that sort.

You are giving one man this absolute power, and
the Hon. Leader of the House cannot do better than to
say that "the Governor had power over life and death,
and therefore there is no danger; in fact, you are
making a noise about a minor thing when you could
make a noise about absolute power over life and

Now, Sir, there are other things in this Bill.
Some of them have been dealt with by the Hon. junior
member for St. Peter. I am merely dealing with
these that catch my eye straight away as being pre-
posterously wrong.

If there was any hope that the Leader of the
House could be appealed to to go to Select Com-
mittee but there is no chance of that, because we
know the attack made on that side on the hon. mem-
ber's agreeing to it.
9.25 p.m.

Mr. SPEAKER: I would remind all hon. mem-
bers of the behaviour of members not speaking.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: What is the goodof ap-
pealing? When a Government sees that a Bill is


hastily drafted, mistakes in it are pointed out and
you appeal to the Government to let the matter go to
a Select Committee unless it is prepared to accept
the amendments, surely the Government says "yes"
because it will not be hurt. But when an appeal is
made, especially to the Leader of this House (ASIDES)
The Leader of the House, in spite of all these years,
does not know me. I am mild in what I do in here
as compared to what I might do, or could do. (ASIDES)
I sometimes make the stupid mistake of taking no-
tice of grunts. Only certain animals grunt.

Mr. SPEAKER: Of course the hon. number does
not make that mistake in this Chamber.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I have not so far made
it. Then in the Schedule 3(2); "The Minister may if
he thinks it expedient......" Could there be a more
dangerous word in the English language than to say
if you think it "expedient"? What is the test of ex-
pediency? Nothing whatever. This is one of the things
that could be changed in a Select Committee. There
is nothing whatever in the Bill to show what is ex-
pedient. You do not use the usual phrase "in the in-
terest of the public", or "in the interest of the
School". All things are lawful, says the good Book,
but all things are not expedient. Equally, many a
thing can be said to be expedient that is not lawful.
He thinks it expedient. "I want to get rid of a critic
in school, and it is expedient for me, the Minister,
to get rid of him, and therefore he goes". Must this
remain in a Bill passed by the Barbados House of

Mr. Speaker, I repeat that they have theirnum-
bers, and anything can pass by a misuse of their
numbers. But, thank God, it all adds up, and the pub-
lic will know that it is not that the Government was
right, but that it outnumbered the Opposition. (AS IDES)

Mr. SPEAKER: The behaviour of members not
speaking. May I invite the attention of all hon. mem-
bers not speaking to Standing Order No. 29, which
they will find on page 27. Let the Hon. and Learned
Leader of the Opposition proceed.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: May Irespectfully sug-
gest, Sir, that a direct speaking to the member not
behaving himself would be more advantageous to re-
taining discipline in this House than merely referring
to a Rule? It is time enough for people on that side
to be spoken to, and spoken to harshly, by the Chair.

Mr. SPEAKER: Actually, from each side Iheard
something which caused me to think it necessary to
refer to Standing Order No. 29. It was from each side.
All hon. members have consciences, and they know
the position.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: If I may respectfully
make the suggestion that Your Honour suggest to the
senior member for St. James to behave himself and
to the junior member for St. Thomas to behave him-
self, it would be better than referring to the Rules.
I do not mean the general behaviour; I only mean
now that Your Honour looked at the senior member

for St. James. It, therefore, meant that he had been

Mr. SPEAKER: Each of those hon. members
have given a smile of contrition.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I know how difficult
it is in this set up for some conduct I would not
finish it, Sir. I think everybody knows what I mean.
Again I apologise if I repeat a point that was made
before. Even the English of this ought to have
shocked the hon. member for St. Lucy who likes
to trot out these phrases of his. How can you have
prior approval? There is a contradiction in terms;
you can only approve of something that is done. Can
you, 'prior approve' of something that is not done?
The language is hopeless. The only thing worse than
this was the Sugar Bill in relation to wages where
again by a show of using your numbers smart Alec
manoeuvres in order to get a Bill through before the
Opposition could make their point that an arbitrator
should be appointed to settle the Trade Union dis-
pute out came something that line after line was
badly drafted. Even the Leader of the House agreed
whenever one of us got up on this side and said that
something was wrong. He said he would reconsider
it and report it to the Attorney-General. It was the
worst drafted Bill which I have ever seen in 40
years of public life.

I repeat to hon. members on the other side that
they may carry a thing too far. We over here wel-
come the fact that you make these mistakes. They
all add up. We can go to the public and tell the public
that this is the position and let the public be the
judges. Go on. It is a good thing to have a giant
strength, but it is tyrannous to use it like a giant.
That is what is happening here. You have the strength,
you have the numbers and you threaten us. Do you
think we on this side will ever forgetthat the Prime
Minister stood up there and said that he had given
instructions to the Attorney-General to control the
Opposition in this House?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, on a point of
order. The hon. member is not now speaking about a
Senator on or off the cricket field; he is speaking of
a member of this House like himself. Icategorically
deny that the Prime Minister ever said inthis House
or outside of it that he had given instructions to the
Attorney-General to do something about muzzling
the Opposition. It is certainly not true.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: The hon. member ca-
tegorically denies that. Let me tell the hon. member
this: I would not believe the hon. member on oath un-
less he was corroborated.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: That is because you do not
know the nature of an oath.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I would not believe the
hon. member if he swore on oath in a witness box
unless he was corroborated, because I have had too
many instances of his making contradictions. I will


look up I do not know if it is published in the
Official Gazette, but I know somebody who has a
record of what the Hon. Prime Minister saidon that
occasion. In future I will travel with it.

Mr. SPEAKER: Shall we continue with the debate
on the Community College?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: The hon. member gets
up and says he contradicts me on that. One of these
days, Mr. Speaker, it will be a surprise to most of
us, but it will be a good thing for the hon. member;
he will unconsciously speak the truth.
9.35 p.m.

Because there has been great debate on this
matter, I merely repeat that this Bill cannot be de-
fended as it stands. The idea of a Community Col-
lege as a priority cannot be defended, and if the
Government intends to do what the Leader of the
House has suggested, everybody will see as clearly
as the noon-day sun that this is only a subterfuge for
destroying Sixth Forms. Why can't the Prime Min-
ister and the Minister of Education say that plainly
and bluntly? There is no reason for destroying a
centuiry-old institution which exists moreover in all
parts of the world, British or otherwise. All over
the world you can find a Sixth Form, a form just
underneath University, because you step out of the
Sixth Form into University. The places that have not
got a Sixth Form are those that cannot afford it, just
like the Foundation School and so on. Every part of
the world with a school system has a system whereby
you step out of the highest form into the University.
Prove that it has been a failure. Prove that you must
get rid of it. What the hon. member is unable to say
is that absolute assurance has been given by the Min-
ister of Education or the Prime Minister that there
is no intention in the immediate or the distant future
to abolish Sixth Forms. Will they give the assurance
that it is not their intention to abolish the Second
Form in schools? If they can give that assurance, it is
only commonsense that they should be able to give
the assurance that they are not going to abolish the
Fifth Form or Sixth Form. (A VOICE: What is he
talking about a Second Form?) I said that, and I
thought it might have penetrated the head of the
Leader of the House. If you have no intention of abo-
lishing the Second Form, you must have a similar
feeling as regards the rest of the school, and you
can easily say you do not intend to abolish the Pre-
paratory Form, the First Form orthe Second Form.
(Hon. J. C. TUDOR: But there is no Preparatory
Form.) Imagine the hon. member saying there is
no Preparatory Form.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: The hon. member has just...

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Suppose there was or
was not. I just say Preparatory Form.

Mr. SPEAKER: Has the hon. member risen on a
point of order?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: No, Mr. Speaker. I give up.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Is the hon. member
so silly, so abysmally stupid as not to see that all
I was saying is that you have a school, you have a
Second Form, but if you are not going to abolish
the Preparatory Form or the Kindergarten or First
Form, or call it whatever you like, you can say so?
Why can't you say it about the Sixth Form? Nobody
would dream of saying if there is a First Form or
Second Form, he is going to abolish it. Equally you
should be able to say you are not going to abolish
the Sixth Form. That has never been saidexplicitly.
You should be able to give the assurance.

As I said, I think every point must have been
made by previous speakers. That is not to say that
if the hon. senior member for St. James is inclined
to speak, I would in the least stand in his way. In
fact, I would welcome his contribution to the debate
on behalf of the Opposition.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, after listening with
rapt attention to the lengthy speeches on this side
of the House, and also to the Leader of the House
while piloting this Bill, and also after hearing the
groans and grunts of the hon. junior member for St.
Thomas, I would be failing in my duty, Mr. Speaker,
if on this occasion I did not make a contribution to
this Bill. Sir, I shall not hold up this House with a
lengthy speech, but what I would like to draw to the
attention of the Leader of the House is this: is the
Community College going to be the salvation of the
poor results which we have been getting in recent
years? Is this the answer, or is it that the whole
structure of the educational system in this country
needs looking into?
If we examine the system which is now in opera-
tion by way of the Common Extrance Examination,
one can observe that in the month of February, there
are some 11,000 children facing almost the stiffest
test of life and not only they, but their parents -
to fill some 800 places. Of these, Mr. Speaker, there
are approximately 5,000 boys and 6,000 girls. Of
the original 11,000, we find that 3,500 will take the
second part of this examination, and of these 3,500
there are only 850 places provided by the Govern-
ment of this country for these children. I use that,
Mr. Speaker, to bring out this point. Is it a Com-
munity College that is a priority now? Or should we
have a high-powered enquiry into the whole system
of education in a growing population in this country
today? These are two things which I think should be
of paramount importance to the present weak-kneed
Minister of Education.

Mr. Speaker, while listening to the Leader of
the House, one would only accept and it is now
common knowledge that it is a Bill which has on
more than one occasion raised the hair on the heads
of the Secondary School teachers in this country. Only
on Saturday morning the Secondary School Teachers
Association held a General Meeting at Harrison
College hall, and the Minister of Education was sup-
posed to give the feature address. At 8.30 a.m. the
parish-pump drunkard by the name of Earle Glasgow
who is the President of the Association, received a


telephone call that the Minister could not attend be-
cause he had aflattyre. The Minister who is re-
sponsible for some $14 million of this country's
revenue could not find it possible to address the
Secondary School Teachers Association on an im-
portant Bill such as this, where fear is driven into
their hearts because of the power that is vested in
the hands of the Minister.

Sir, I am in sympathy with the Hon. Leader of
the House for having to carry on his back a burden
for the Minister of Education, his successor as a
matter of fact, whose only contribution within the
past months is to go from school to school telling
this country what we know: that a latch needs putting
on a toilet door, or a bundle of shingles needs to be
put on a school, and having the Press behind him
walking up and-down, and having C.B.C. -T.V. put on
what is known as the most outstanding programme -
the Sandiford programme thirteen times in one
week, and fourteen times in the newspaper. That is
what we feel, Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House.
9.45 p.m.

Mr. SPEAKER: May I remind the hon. member,
as I have earlier reminded one other hon. member,
that he should not refer to the conduct of a member
of either House of the Legislature except upon a
substantive motion?
Mr. CRAIG: Sir, I am not dealing with the con-
duct of the Minister; I am dealing with the Minis-
ter's functions, and I am quite sure that I will not
be lacking in knowledge after hearing your Ruling
this afternoon, and overstep my bounds. I am dealing
with the functions of the Minister of Educationin his
present Ministry.

Mr. SPEAKER: That refers to the duties which
he is required to perform as distinct from his con-
duct in the performance thereof.
Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, I would not invite
you even to ask the Reporters to read back anything
which I may feel within myself I have said dis-
paraging about the Minister of Education. All I am
drawing to the attention of the House is that all the
Minister has done since he has taken over the Min-
istry from the Hon. Leader of this House is to go
from school to school saying where a latch should
be put on a door or a bundle of shingles should be
put on a roof. I am also drawing to the attention of
the House that the Minister had a flat tyre at 8.30
o'clock in the morning. I do not think that there
is any reflection on the character of the Minister
or his conduct.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am sorry that the word was
misheard. Not character, but conduct. It may be the
function of the Minister to order these latches, but
reference was made, I understood, to his conduct in
ordering them.
Mr. CRAIG: Sir, as I go through this Bill, you
will observe what is the conduct of the Minister. It
states here that the Bill would make provision for
the establishment of the Barbados Community Col-
lege in order to provide a place of education offering

instruction in Agriculture, Commerce, Fine Arts,
Liberal Arts, Science, Technology, and any other
field of education which the Minister of Education
may from time to time determine and for matters
incidental thereto and connected therewith. The Col-
lege would be managed by a Board, the Constitution
of which is set out in the Schedule. Now listen to the
Schedule; this is very interesting. I am dealing with
the power which is vested in the Minister. The Min-
ister may revoke the appointment of any member of
the Board. That is only one thing, but what is of
paramount importance is this: "The Minister may,
after consultation with the Board, give to the Board
(a) directions of a general character as to the policy
to be followed in the exercise and performance of its
functions in matters appearing to him to concern
the public interest; (b) directions for the remedying
of any serious defect or failure in the successful
performance of its functions; and the Board shall
give effect to such directions." The Board is only a
rubber stamp, as I see it. The Minister has the
power to fire the Board, the Principal, the Tutor;
nobody can vest such powers in the hands of one-
man. Even if we were to win the Government of this
country tomorrow, I could not support such a Bill
putting into the hands of one man so much power. I
am told that before the Hon. Leader of the Hous:
was a Minister of the Government, he was a teacher
at a Secondary School. I wonder how the Minister
would fee) with the power vested in one man's hand
to know that he is subject to that Minister and to be
the Minister's lackey.

This Bill tells you that the Board can make an
appointment and then go to the Minister for con-
firmation. The Board must ask the Minister if he
will accept this appointment. The Minister only has
to say "No", and there is no appointment. How
would the Hon. Leader of the House feel if he found
himself as a Schoolmaster under the powers of a
Minister and subjected to such treatment how
would he feel about that? How would he feel if he had
done some 19 or 20 years then to be told that he has
to go on probation and then at the end of that pro-
bationary period he finds himself thrown out be-
cause he disagrees with the Minister's policy? You
see, Mr. Speaker, the whole structure of this Bill
gives the Minister too much power, and I will even
give the Hon. Leader of the House some informa-
tion. Only today while he was introducing this Bikk,
the Minister said that there was a delegation which
went to the Minister's office yesterday and things
were smoothed out somewhat. I shouldlike to inform
the Minister that when Mr. Glasgow, Mr. Arden
Clarke and Mrs. Monica Skeete went to the Ministry
yesterday morning and were confronted with two
legal luminaries, the Permanent Secretary, the
Prime Minister's Personal Aide andothermembers
of the Civil Service a high-powered Committee
this little delegation was forced to meet. They could
not have been speaking for an Association of some
two hundred people because only at 8 o'clock this
evening an announcement was made condemning the
action of the delegation, that the delegation did not
speak for the body of the Association; so you can
see where this Bill.... I (ASIDES) Well, if the Labour


Party can influence such an educated Body, I think
some credit should be given to them. If because of
having a general meeting on Saturday morning, hav-
ing a Committee engineered to come in and meet
a high-powered- Committee of the Ministry andthen
you come back this afternoon and another announce-
ment is made, you can see that there is too much
controversy about this Bill.
9.55 p.m.

Mr. Speaker, what I would like the Hon. Leader
of the House to do when replying, if he does and I
am quite sure that he is going to is to give this
Honourable House the assurance which I thinkwould
be in the interest of this nation, that there will be
set up an inquiry into the whole educational system
of this country. The problem is not at the top; the
problem is at the bottom, where you get 350 girls
who get into schools and more applying, and more
sitting the Entrance Examination when there is less

I have seen, Mr. Speaker, on mornings around
8 o'clock whenever these Common Entrance Exami-
nations are to be taken, you can see mothers from
as far as St. Lucy bringing their children they
must have got them out of bed at 5 o'clock bringing
children between the ages of 10 and 11 to take such a
test. It is not fair to the child.

Not only that, but you will observe that Jack
Smale and his wife are the people who get 100 per
cent passes, and yet a directive was sent to the
schools not to tutor children along the Common
Entrance Examination lines. There you are. Jack
Smale and his wife, who would not give a receipt for
$65 a term tax evasion and who were occupying
Government quarters and carrying on a business,
and they were in a position to put up 100 children,
and 100 got in! They have an idea of what type of
examination these children will come up against,
while in the Government schools a directive has
been sent out by the Ministry of Education to Head-
teachers not to tutor these children along the Com-
mon Entrance Examination lines.

The Government says that there is free second-
ary education for all, but I believe that it is for those
who are in a position to pay. You can find that those
who can best afford to pay find themselves in the
Government-aided Secondary Schools, and those who
cannot pay find themselves in the Modern High
School and the Federal School and the other types
of Secondary Schools who are doing a good job in ful-
filling the educational needs of the men and women
of tomorrow.

It is necessary, therefore, inthe interest of the
Ministry, to examine the whole structure of the sys -
tem and not to go in for a project that will cost an-
other $ 1/2 million and we do not know what it
will cost yet, to set up this Community College and
staff it to meet September.

As a matter of fact, I will go further. The Min-
ister in a Press release said that interested per-

sons have already applied for jobs. I would like to
know, because we only had this Bill last week, but
the Minister declares that interested persons have
already applied for jobs. What jobs? No posts have
been advertised. We are now trying to establish a
Community College in Barbados, and yet the Minis-
ter said that interestedpersons have already applied.

People who will apply you will find are people
like Glasgow, a disreputable character. You will
find people like the former Secretary who was just
thrown off the Secondary School Teachers' Asso-
ciation applying. You will not find Dr. Pilgrim ap-
plying. She would probably offer her services for
nothing. She is a lady of character. You would not
find Mr. Fab Hoyos applying. He too would offer his
services for nothing. You would find people like
Glasgow, a parish-pump drunkard. That is too mild
a term to use.

It is too mild because we have had experience
of this young man who is supposed to set an exam-
ple to the youth of this country, a master at a school
of repute like Lodge School, but who can find himself
going around heckling meetings.

Mr. SPEAKER: Will the hon. member keep to
the Community College? I am not saying that he is
breaking the rule referring to a person who is not a
member of Parliament, but will he keep the debate
to the question of the Community College?

Mr. CRAIG: Yes, Sir. All these people are
likely to get jobs.

Mr. SPEAKER: But I understood the hon. mem-
ber to say that it had not yet been decided to establish
a Community College.

Mr. CRAIG: According to what the Minister
said, interested persons have already applied; so
the Minister apparently knows already who will get
jobs there. I think that I am within my rights, with all
due respect to your humble suggestion, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, here we are planning to put
$14 million in the hands of a manwho has never seen
or faced the electorate and who will never face the
electorate. I am throwing down the gauntlet tonight.
Not Leroy Sandiford. Not in St. James. Run? No, he
runs to a flat tyre. He is too big a coward. He was
always a coward.

Mr. SPEAKER: Will the hon. member please
speak on the Community College?

Mr. CRAIG: If I digressed for a moment, for-
give me, Sir.

Mr. SPEAKER: I have forgiven.

Mr. CRAIG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to
draw to Your Honour's attention the present practice
of Government Secondary Schools. I heard the Min-
ister say in piloting this Bill through that there will
be no fear. To the best of my knowledge, Mr.


Speaker, Secondary Schools have Governing Bodies
which are appointed for three years.

During that three year period the decisions of
the Governing Body are accepted by the Ministry.
The Ministry respects the Governing Bodies.
10.05 p.m.

They put men on a Governing Body arid they respect
their views, but in this case it is not like that. I do
not know what is the Minister's motive. I heard my
colleague on my right, the junior member for St.
Peter, say that, maybe, it might be his intention
to be the Principal of the same Community College,
Sir. I do not know, but, judging from his post as
Master at Harrison 's College, at $500 a month;
Personal Aide at $800, and Minister of Education at
$1,000, there is no shadow of a doubt in my mind that
in this Bill the Minister has the absolute power to
appoint himself, maybe, at a salary greater than what
he now gets, because in this very Bill it is stated
that the Minister may appoint any person to act
temporarily in the place of any member of the Board
in the case of the absence or inability to act of such

In the Schedule, 3(2) states that the Minister
may, if, he thinks it expedient, revoke the appoint-
ment of any member of the Board. The Minister
may from time to time change the Schedule; he can
throw it out of the window; he has absolute power,
and it is not fair that such noble men and women,
who have spent their lives over the years in tutoring
boys and girls so that tomorrow they will be able
to guide this nation, shouldbe placed in this position.
It is not fair, and I cannot support it.

The Minister of State, the Leader of the House,
in 1962 said that he had a new Education Act and it
was only a question of doQing the i's and crossing
the t's. Six years ago he had the draft. Sir, you are
legally trained, and you would know when the draft
is there it is only to dot the i's and cross the t's,
it is almost ready to go on the Press to be sent to
Parliament. Six years have gone by. The Advisory
Committee on this same Community College never
saw the draft of this Bill, and then the Minister
got up and made a statement in the newspapers
that he was advised by the Advisory Board which
Advisory Board did he have? Clarke and Glasgow?
Do you take them seriously?

Sir, this Bill which is seeking to provide this
country with a Community College is merely a pres -
tige Bill. It is a Bill to prove beyond a shadow of
a doubt that the present Minister of Education is
more dynamic and is doing more in his Ministry
in as short a time as the Leader of the House who
was then former Minister of Education. (ASIDES) We
all have our reservations. Tomorrow I am going to
Manufacturers Life Insurance Company.

Sir, I respect that side for what it is worth, and
I respect this side for what it is worth. I must give
some credit to the Leader of the House, inspite of
what we on this side may feel about him on this Bill,

for doing a good job. Praise is due where it is
worthy, and 'Jack must have his jacket' is an old
adage. He provided us in his Ministry with a broken-
down Station which we had to subsidise with $2 1/2
million. It is still something, and on it is the out-
standing programme which you can see every night -
the Sandiford Programme, an interlude. He has
provided this country with a free Secondary Educa-
tion. According to their Manifesto it says free educa-
tion for all, but in this Bill it says "the Minister may
from time to time charge a fee if he so thinks...."
The Minister alone can do this not the Cabinet but
the Minister; not the same Board which the Minister
is setting up. The Board is a rubber stamp, and it
serves no useful purpose.

I see nothing in this Bill about the Board; every-
thing is "The Minister may...." It is not fair. The
Minister is trying his best by improving the School
Meals system which we on this side brought about.
Some of the children had dysentery and so on, but he
tried his best. These things happen in the best of
societies. It is unfortunate that the Ministerof Com-
munications and Works did not have a dose of dysen-
tery too, Sir.

Mr. SPEAKER: That remark is totallyunneces-

Mr. CRAIG: I have to give the Minister a little
touch now and then, Sir. You will find, Mr. Speaker,
that this Bill is not a Bill to solve the problems
that are confronting the country by changingtheedu-
cational system. This is merely prestige: "Sandiford
gave Barbados a Community College." But what I
would like to see Sandiford do is to extend the Sixth
Form at Harrison's College whereby Queen's Col-
lege and St. Michael's Girls can go over and do
their Sixth Form work; provide Foundation Boys and
Girls with aSi Form whereby they can do Sixth
Form work, remem ering that masters were there
who tutored Bobby Thomas, rtow Mr. Thomas, an
Ear, Nose and Throat Specialist, and who won a
Barbados Scholarship from Foundation School. That
is what the masters did on the side there was no
Sixth Form. I want to see Sandifordprovide Coleridge-
Parry, Alexandra and the Alleyne Schools, to serve
the North, with a Sixth Form. You already have a
Sixth Form at Combermere School.

If you are prepared to give access to the Pri-
vate Secondary Schools, which do not have a Sixth
Form, to do Sixth Form work, then you will be in a
position to accommodate them at the various Schools
to which I have just referred.

I am confident, Mr. Speaker, that this Community
College is going to be a drainon the other Secondary
Schools in this country. It is going to be a drain be-
cause salaries will be very attractive. It is human
nature like the same Minister from $500 to $800,
and then to $1,000. It is human nature to look for a
piece of change. How are you going to provide the
material in these Secondary Schools to go to the
same Community College? Who is going to tutor the
children? The idea is to prepare the ground work


and provide a solid foundation. Scrap the Common
Entrance Examination, because that almost gave my
daughter a nightmare.
10.15 p.m.

That is my contention on this Bill. Take the
power out of the hands of the Minister and put it
in the hands of the Governing Body of this College.
Failing that, Mr. Speaker, unless I can have the
assurance from the Minister, I cannot support this
because with 11,000 children sitting an examination
and only having 850 places provided they are not
necessarily rejects. There are some people who de-
velop at the age of sixteen. There are some children
who cannot pass the Common Entrance Examination,
maybe because of fear. They come out of St. Andrew
and St. James. They hear about Harrison College
and Queen's College, but have never seen them yet.
A paper is pushed at them to be done in X minutes,
and unless a child from a Primary School is brilli-
ant, it has no chance in such an examination against
a child from the Smale School; and Mrs. Smale
won't pay one cent in income tax. She would not give
you a receipt, Mr. Speaker, if you wring it out of
her hand.

Mr. SPEAKER: That is irrelevant to this debate,
whether a private tutor gives or does not give a
receipt or pays income tax.

Mr. CRAIG: All of this is still under education,
and Mrs. Smale......

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid I disagree that that
is under education.

Mr. CRAIG: That may be just a passing word.
Mrs. Smale might be a bit ticklish, not for you, Mr.
Speaker. You have had your fill. I am going to sit
here and listen, hoping that the Minister, though he
is not in his place now, would give a reply. I do not
think, Mr. Speaker, that our criticisms here should
go on deaf ears, because I believe firmly that we
are as interested in this country producing some of
the brains throughout the entire world as we have
done in previous years, and I believe, Sir, that the
Leader of the House could safely tell us that maybe
in his days at College, it was always felt that people
like Noad Haskell could always produce good scholars
Let us not,xMr. Speaker, at this stage of our lives
and of the life of our nation, take a retrogressive

If the argument is that a Community College is
the answer to our problems, I bow only on the
strength that a high-powered Commission of En-
quiry go into this. If the argument is to strengthen
the bottom so as to produce better material for the
top, like expanding Erdiston College and having
better teachers trained, then, Sir, I will accept that.
But I am not going to support this Bill as it is. The
principle of a Community College, I know, can be a
very ticklish subject, because in a political campaign
one can safely say that we voted against this Bill,
and we are not prepared to support education; but

out of a revenue in 1959 of $22 million, we spent $5
million on education. We have a revenue now of $50
million and we are spending $14 million on education,
under which come Ecclesiastical Affairs, Archivist
and C.B.C.; so do not say that we really did nothing
for the country by way of our educational system.

Mr. Speaker, with those few remarks, I once
said that the ruffle of the gown of Shaw-le-Fevre in
1891 drove fear into the hearts of hon. members
in this House; maybe the clearing of your throat
might force me to take my seat, and so I humbly do.

Mr. SPRINGER: Mr. Speaker, if the Hon. Leader
of the House had tonight introduced a Resolution to
scrap all forms of education in this country, it could
not have had stronger objection, louder protests and
lengthier discussion than was witnessedtoday. When
we examine the record of the Barbados Labour Party.
their behaviour today in obstructing the passage of
this Bill is not surprising. I say this, Mr. Speaker,
with the knowledge that most of us in this Chamber
are old enough to remember when in 1945 under the
leadership of the Labour Party who had the ma-
jority of seats in the Legislature at that time, and
when Government Business was then led by the
present Leader of' the Opposition, Mr. Howard
Hayden directed that this Legislature introduce a
t5 bond that three years at a Secondary School
meant absolutely nothing to a boy going to Harrison
College or Combermere school. I remember the
late AE.S. Lewis talking for almost twice as long
as the senior member for St. Peter today trying to
obstruct the passage of,the +5 bond.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that hon. member
has not been in the House today.

Mr. SPRINGER: Thank you very much for the
correction, Mr. Speaker. I meant the hon. junior
member for St. Peter. I go further. I was at school
at the age of sixteen, fortunate enough to go on from
the Third Form to a Fourth Form, and unfortunate
enough to see several boys thrown out of Combermere
School because they introduced superannuation in
the schools at that time. We are old enough also
to remember, Mr. Speaker, that superannuation
introduced into this Island several Private Secon-
dary Schools, and several of the boys who were
thrown out from these Government-aided schools
went on to the Private Secondary Schools and made
a name in this country.

I can understand, Mr. Speaker,. lawyers not
wanting the establishment of a Community College.
Lawyers thrive on ignorance. But when I hear cer-
tain people like the hon. junior member for St. Peter
who has not had the privilege of a Sixth Form educa-
tion, and the hon. senior member for St. James who
knows what he could have been if he had had this
opportunity, oppose this Bill, I wonder if lawyers
are not right in thinking that the best way to govern
people is to keep them in ignorance.

Mr. Speaker, it is strange that we hear that Mr.
Keith Walcott was a reactionary, that he voted against

- 1 i i i

Bills sent down by the Governor;but we get the Labour;
Party, who were supposed to be Socialists,pro-
moting, piloting and arguing strongly for superannua -
tion, age-grouping and a L5 bond. But it does not
finish there, Mr. Speaker; it goes further than that.
when this Government said it would introduce free
secondary education, they said this country could
not afford it, that it was impossible. Now they boast
that there are 11,000 children sitting the Common
Entrance Examination. It is surprising that there
are not 15,000, Mr. Speaker, because education is
free, and parents now realise that they can send
their children to Harrison College. If you stand up
near Harrison College and watch the physical com-
plexion of the people who enter this school, you would
know that they are not from the privileged classes.
If you watch the ones who go to Queen's College, Mr.
Speaker, no longer are they from the landed planto-
cracy of this country. They are the children of the
domestics, and they are connected with the planta-
tion. They are children of agricultural labourers,
and that is why there are 11,000.
10.25 p.m.

There only used to be 4,000 because they were
drawn from the wealthier classes of this country.

At this stage, Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and Mr.
DEPUTY SPEAKER took the Chair.

Mr. SPRINGER: Mr. Deputy Speaker, this type
of argument in the promotion of the education of the
people of this country has always been the defeat of
the Labour Party. At all times they suffered this
defeat. They could have had a majority long before
1951; but because of their attitude towards the edu-
cation of the country, the now defunct Congress
Party drove them into a coalition. It is this type of
approach that they have, and I remember well the
Party, led by the Hon. Leader of the Opposition,
saying in this House that a boy going to Harrison
College" for three years that only gives him the
right to wear the blazer with the crest and the school
tie, and gives him a false assessment of his own
importance. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I know, if you had
two years there, what you would have been. Imagine
that without that two years you can hold your own
amongst those who had education from Harrison
College up to University level free! They had it
free, but now they want to deprive other people from
getting it. Imagine that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Very
often in this House of Assembly I sit down and I lis-
ten, because I find out that not only is patience a
virtue and silence is much more than golden, but
when I see people who have never had an oppor-
tunity to get what we can really appreciate as a
worthwhile education, stand up on the floor of the
House of Assembly and try to deny other people from
getting it, I wonder if it is just, plain ignorance or
common inhumanity to man.

When we introduced free secondary education,
the argument was that it was impossible,andwhen it
came they were not satisfied that we were doing it.
The argument then was that people who could afford
to pay were getting it. The argument in that is as

ignorant as saying that because a man can afford to
have a bodyguard, he is not entitled to Police pro-
tection. It is as stupid as saying that. I say that there
are members of the Opposition with children going
to the Government-aided Secondary Schools who
would not subscribe more than they have to sub-
scribe to educate their own children. I know this;
they cannot fool me; they are glad that they do riot
have to pay. I do not worry about cost; cost of edu-
cation to me has. never been a problem. A Govern-
ment has to be able to afford education, and the
price could never be too high. I say that we are
happy when the Leader of the Opposition, inhis time
as Leader of the Government, saw fit to increase
the number of Barbados Scholarships from one to
six, and we are sorry that there was not anybody
else who could increase them from six to twelve.
(Laughter) Cost has never been a concern with me
in education. A man owes it to his children to have
them educated, and a Government owes it to the
country to have the Community educated. That is my
philosophy in this matter. To argue that this is going
to abolish the Sixth Forms at the Secondary Schools
which have them now, does not hold water with me
because I believe that Combermere was a good
School without a Sixth Form, and if Harrison College
did not have a Sixth Form, there would be less pre-
judice in this country than there is today. Most of the
prejudice that exists at Harrison College exists
because they had a Prep Form which only pro-
vides work for two retired old people who could
not do anything but teach a Prep Form and a Sixth
Form. If a Community College means meeting the
vacuum and creating an atmosphere in which the
300 school-leavers who walk down Broad Street
for eighteen months before either the law picks
them up or they go to Canada and do some menial
work if the establishment of this Community Col-
lege means destroying the Sixth Form at these
schools and finding employment for'these people
to keep them in school, then I say: "Destroy the
Sixth Forms.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I believe in the greatest
number, the greatest good. I have seen far too many
people who were not able, previous to free secondary
education, to go to the Fifth Form at Combermere
School, walk the streets, become disillusioned, get
involved with the law and end up as criminals. If
the creation of this College will mean the abolition
of the Sixth Forms and fill this gap and create an
atmosphere in which these young people can work,
then the Sixth Forms can go. I do not have anything
to cry about the Sixth Forms that much. I did not
have a Sixth Form education and I am glad that I
did not have one, too.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, reference was madeby the
hon. senior member for St. James to the Barbados
Labour Party starting a Sclool Meals programme.
That is news to me. I know that they started talking
about it. If, his reference is to the biscuits and milk,
that was started by the Conservatives somewhere in
1938, the year after the riot I was then going to
school in Baxters Road to an old man called Joe
Clarke, and I do not know if the hon. member means


that. The Barbados Labour Party was then a mere
idea. I would say that as late as 1954, the Hon.
Leader of the Opposition strongly opposedhot meals
on the ground that it was only suitable for children
in a cold climate. That was his argument then, but
now it is working. Because of the fact that some
children are taken sick, they are goingto try to des -
troy it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, all of us at some time
have eaten something and it has interfered with our
stomachs. It might be eating; it might be drinking;
but it does not mean that we stop eating or drinking.
The School Meals service is here to stay. And the
Community College will come and it is goingto stay
because we, the people and when I say, "we the
people," I am talking about the Government because
the Government has the most in numbers, and num-
bers give you the Government, and the least numbers
give you the Opposition. If they are happy in not
having the numbers, we are happy in having the
Government. (Cheers)
10.35 p.m.

There is no doubt about that. When you talk
about power concentrated in one man, I believe in
power concentrated in as few people as possible,
and if it happens to be one man the power has to be
concentrated in the hands of somebody.

If a politician has an idea a:d it is said that
this is Sandiford's idea the power should be con-
centrated in him. I say that because there are several
people who are opposed to the Community College;
and if Senator Sandiford is the unfortunate one and
you concentrate the power in the hands of someone
opposed to it, the Opposition will say; "see what I
told you; it could not work". So the person who
brought up the idea should be given the power.

SI believe in giving responsibility to as few peo-
ple as possible. Talking about power, I have been
in politics early, earlier than all the members in
here except the Minister of Community Develop-
ment and the Leader of the Opposition, and I remem-
bered him talking about power, and when Iheard him
I believed that what he said was right. I have not
changed my belief yet.

I heard him say: "Humby goes or I go;" and
Humby went. I heard hir say: "Give me the num-
bers and I have the power to do whatever I like. I
can make a man; the only thing is that if I make one,
I do not have the power to get him to walk."

I heard the Leader of the Opposition say it
was not told to me that he said so I heard him say
of Mrs. Daysh: "I made her a member of the Legis-
lative Council, and if she does not vote for me for
Federal Prime Minister I will unmake her; that is,
if she gets a seat." I heard him say: "I brought
Frank Walcott from obscurity and Iwillbreakhim of
his power."

He believed in that power when he had it. Well,
now, if someone else has the power, believe in it
too. There is absolutely nothing wrong in giving one
man power. The fear is that he may use it badly. If

a man has an idea about something that he thinks is
right and he convince the country that it is right,
there is nothing wrong in concentrating that power
in the hands of one man.

The slowest form of progress is democracy be-
cause it is concentrated in the hands of too many
people. The strange thing about education is that
there are more people ignorant about itthanyou can
imagine, but everyone is his own expert. Everyone
you hear talking about it says to do this and that.
Everyone wants his child at an academic school. They
do not want them to be at a trade school. They want
something in his head.

Mr. Speaker, all the people who try to make
money by their hands end up poor. You have to make
money by your head. Anyone you see in a factory
and rich, he is in an office upstairs, and the people
down stairs are working with their hands. To prove
it, God made it so that you can live without your
hands and you have two of them but you cannot
live without your head.

All of them will tell you to send children to a
trade school, but look where they will send theirs.
They will try to get them into Government schools.
When you talk about Mrs. Smale, they would prefer
to pay $66.00 a term to Mrs. Smale to get their
children into Harrison College free than to go to a
vocational school or to the Trades Training Centre

Learning to use your hands is a last resort if
you have found that you cannot get something into
your head. The Community College is to fill this gap.
There is not much more that I can say on this Bill
now, but it is likely that somethingwill come up dur-
ing the Committee stage when I will have to say
something on this Bill. I challenge them to say that
they will not vote for the Bill because it is not a
priority for this country.

The fact, Sir, is that whether it is a priority or
not is a matter for discussion. I do not know what
is a priority in education. Education is a priority
in itself. I do not know how you can have a priority
within a priority.

I could no more oppose this Bill than if they
had brought one for the establishment of a Technical
Training School. Education at any level is worthwhile
and can never be too costly.

Mr. SPEAKER: The question is that the Bill be
read a second time. Hon. members in favour will
please say aye and those against it please say no.
I think the "Ayes" have it.

On a division being called for, the question was resolved
in the affirmative, the House dividing as follows:


mi,~ ~ 1

Mr. J. B. SPRINGER and Mr. R. St.C. WEEKS (9)


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Ibeg to
move that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and
the House go into Committee on this Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and the House went into Committee on the Bill,
Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

On the motion of Hon.. J. C. TUDOR seconded by Hon.
C. E. TALMA, Clauses 1 and 2 were called and passed.

Clauses 3 was called.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to move that Clause 3
stand part.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. St. JOHN:. Mr. Chairman, the, Minister in
charge of this Bill did not deem it his duty to reply
to the House. I want to say under Clause 3 that if
you cannot get the Minister to reply to the queries
made from-this side, we want to know at what level
does the Minister expect to take in entrants. What
does the- Minister envisage will be the qualification
for entry into any of these streams?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, the reply is
four "0" Level subjects at one sitting, or five at
more than one or the equivalent.
10.45 p.m,

Mr. St. JOHN: I thank the Hon. Minister. Secondly
I would like to know which of these various subjects
the Minister contemplates starting at the inception
of the College?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Arts and Science.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know
this from the Minister. Does the Minister understand
thatthe qualifications for entrance into the Com-
munity College are the same as those for entrance
into the College of Arts and Science?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: It is not quite so. I can see
what is bothering the hon. member. At the College
of Arts and Science, admission is given on the basis
of the "0" Level Certificates in order that people
may do what they call the "Year One Course" at
the beginning of a four-year degree; but if you go
in with "A" Levels, you will do the ordinary Uni-
versity Course. This will only mean, of course, that
some people will, instead of going to plough through
the Four-Year Course, choose to do two years and
get their "A" Levels and get the required or the ap-
propriate exemptions from the regular College of

Arts Course when they come to do this. There is no

Mr. St. JOHN: I am a little.disturbedat the fact
that the intention is to start with Arts and Science in
September. would have thought that with the defi-
nite need here, both in the Government and in pri-
vate employment, for people who have beenproperly
trained in commercial skills, it would have been so
clear to the Ministry that the training in Commercial
Studies would have been regarded as one of the first

.Secondly, there is great need here for people who
have had some training,elementary though it may be,
in Business Studies, and I would have thought, again,
that this would have been an ideal opportunity to in-
troduce an Introductory Course in Business Studies
and, a. full C. urse in Commercial Training. I think
it is wrong, if you have a Government that is spend-
ing $14 million a year on education, to allow private
institutions to extract fees in the order of $300 to
$600 for Commercial Courses and to allow that to
go away. That is bound to be wrong.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I want to revert to
this entrance qualification. Here is a case where if
a person possesses five "O" Level subjects, he can
enter the University at Cave Hill for free education.
If he has five subjects, he is beingoffered education
for which he has to pay.

SHon. J. C, TUDOR: On point of order. When
the hon. member was speaking today Ithought I heard
him say this,.and I was not quite sure whether it was
Sin respect of the Community College that he, was
making this statement. Now that he has made it
again, and I have heard him for myself, I wish to
deny that categorically.

Mr. HINDS: I referto Clause 14. Want to debate
it now. Mr. Chairman, the Minister is denying that
this is a fee-paying Institute.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Under Clause 3 there is nothing
which stipulates that you should pay fees.

Mr. HINDS: I appreciate all that the. Chairman
has to say, but it is at Clause 3 where I am entitled
to query the Minister and find out if people with five
"O" Levels can go to the University College of the
West Indies free, and with the same five "0" Levels
this Bill states that you have to pay. The Board has
the right to collect fees, whether it comes under
Clause 14, Clause 28 or any Clause.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: If the hon. member would re-
vert to Standing Order No. 44, he would see that it
"Any Committee to which a Bill is committed
shall not discuss the principle of the Bill, but only its
details." Under Clause 3 there is nothingabout fees.
(Mr. St. JOHN: He is right.)
Mr. HINDS: I appreciate that we have to go to
Clause 14. I have to respect what the Chairman has

mwomiww = i-

to say. It is only a point of whether the Chairman
understands what he reads. I am entitled under this
Clause to speak.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I rile that you are notentitled
to raise the question of fees under Clause 3. That
is my Ruling.

Mr. HINDS: I have to respect the Ruling of the
Chair. Mr. Chairman, I am not the Principal of this
Institution; so I am. not raising fees. You told me,
Mr. Chairman, that I am not to raise fees. I am not
raising any fees; if you are talking about debating
fees, that is an entirely different matter. Ido not run
any private institution. I amwondering, again if the
Leader of the House has given us the correct informa-
tion. It would be better, if he is not in possession of
the requisite or the necessary qualifications foren-
trance into this institution I just do not see how he
could be right, because with five "0" Levels you
can go to the University of the West Indies free of
charge, but under this Bill......

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, the hon. mem-
ber really is drawing myattentionto Clause 14 which
is not yet be fore us. I cannot speak of Clause 14 under
Clause 3. If he will wait he will find that he has not
got so much of a point to press home, because I
can tell him what the Government's policy is and
will make the appropriate amendment.
10.55 p.m.

Mr. HINDS: If you are taking in students who
have five "0" Level subjects, what are you going
to lead them to? What is going to be the length of
your courses? (Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Two years.) So it
will be two years to gain an "A" Level Certificate
as against a four year course at the U.W.I. to gain
a degree. Is that it?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Those are the facts.

Mr. HINDS: This is supposed to be a Community
College. What kind of Community College are you
going to establish? Now is there any age limit? Am I
to understand that a person at 75 years, if he has
five "0" level certificates and feels like studying,
can enter? (Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Yes.) Is this going
to .be a day College alone, or day and evening? It
means that there is going to be a considerable staff-
ing problem if it is a day and evening College run-
ning into night. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that the
Minister would like to tell us at this stage what ap-
plications happen to be in his possession and for
what posts.

Hon. J. C, TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, there would
certainly be none in my possession, and so far as I
know, there could not have been applications re-
ceived, because until this bill becomes Law, ap-
plications could not be processed. What I believe
has happened I. have not been told this and I have
been enquiring is that from the time announcements
had been made about the prospective establishment
of this College, people have been writing to enquire
of the, Ministry of Education about the prospects of

being employedthere,which would imagine is a very
legitimate thing to do. If they hear there is a new
institution to be set up, they can only write and ask
for information about it and what the prospects are
of being employed in it. I would not call these ap-
plications. I would think that when this becomes law,
the Ministry will in the customary form put out the
usual advertisements in the Press inviting applica-
tions for the several posts. Only then can they be
properly called applications and be entertained in the
usual way.

While I am on my feet, I would like to take the
opportunity to answer a point raised by the hon.
senior member for Christ Church about the neces-
sity of pressing ahead with Business Studies as early
as the Arts and Sciences. His point is well taken,
and I think that it is something which the Ministry
will do. I will tell you why. They will be admitting
into this Institution people who, perhaps as an al-
ternative qualification to five "O" Levels, have got
the L.C.C. Certificates in various Commercial sub-
jects who wish to proceed, perhaps, to the London
Advanced Level Commercial certificates or what-
ever it is called. They are going to admit such per-
sons and provide the training for them in those
subjects which would, of course, not be purely aca-
demic subjects. I will pass on to the Minister the
point the hon. member has made, and make sure that
Commercial Science including Accountancy, Book-
keeping, Secretarial practice the whole lot of them
- are given the same sort of immediate priority as
the Arts and Sciences. I will do this because I agree
with it. My colleague has just informed me that he
has already asked and got the assurance of the Min-
istry of Education that Agriculture will be included,
and that officers from his Ministry are to be made
available for teaching. I may say this: in the event
that there is initial difficulty in recruiting staff,
my colleague will correct me if I am wrong, it is my
understanding that the Alleyne School Governing
Body has already taken the decision to introduce
Agricultural Science in the curriculum; so *re are
not as behind hand on these matters as hon. mem-
bers opposite will have us believe.

Mr. HINDS: Is the Agricultural Science that is
going to be taught at the Alleyne School the same
Agricultural Science that will be taught at the Com-
munity College? In other words, will we now be
seeing Agricultural Science being taught at the Com-
munity College and at the Alleyne School at the same

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I am sorry; I did not
hear the question.

Mr. HINDS: Are we going to have Agricultural
Science taught at the Alleyne School and at the
Community College at the same time?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: The Agricultural
Science taught at the Alleyne School is of an ele-
mentary form with a view to writing Agriculture

i--I -I '

at "0" Level. The Agriculture which will be taught
at the Community College is a step in advance of that.
This will be more like the basics of a Degree course.
A boy who has done Chemistry, Biology and Physics,
or Chemistry and Biology, and who wants to pursue
a course in Agriculture will have the beginning of
his Degree course at the Community College,
whereas the Agriculture taught at the Alleyne School
is taught with a view to the boys or girls who are
doing it writing the G.C.E. at "0" Level.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, if I understood the
Hon. Leader of the House clearly, he said that Com -
merce is going to be introduced in the Commercial
studies. This is what I would like to find out. You
must have certain qualifications to enter the Com-
munity College. What would be the position of a boy
or girl who is interested in doing Commercial
studies but has not got the necessary academic
qualifications? At present they go to Skinner's or

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I take it the hon. member
would be thinking of a person over the age of sixteen
who wishes to do an advanced course, but does not
meet the entrance qualifications of the Community
College. I should think that such a person would
have to continue to pursue a course leading to the
Entrance qualifications. They would, I think, have to
continue, if they are at school, doing the commercial
equivalent to the G.C.E. before they can enter. I have
no connection now with syllabuses and standard re -
quirements, but I expect you would have to have 70
or 80 words a minute minimum in Shorthand and
Intermediate Typing and things like that. This is what
I would think would be regarded as the equivalent
of four or five subjects at "O" Level on the com-
mercial side, plus English and Arithmetic or what-
ever it is. If you have that,you would be admitted. If
you do not have that, you would have to pursue a
course of study leading to the minimum qualifications
at which you would study the advanced work.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, I do not think I made
myself clear enough to the Hon. Leader of the House.
Right now you can have a girl leaving an elementary
school at the age of fifteen. She is interested in doing
commercial subjects, but has not got the necessary
academic qualifications to get into the Community
College. As it is now, she has to go to Duffs or Skin-
ner's Secretarial and pay approximately $300 to get
what the Minister said just now is the basic quali-
fications of 60 to 80 words a minute in Shorthand
and Intermediate Typing to enter the Community
11.05 p.m.

What I am driving at is this; is it possible for
a girl at the age of sixteen years to leave an ele-
mentary school without the qualifications and enter
the Community College for the purpose of doing her
commercial studies?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: No,this wouldn't be possi-
ble. The hon. member must know this, that the Min-
istry of Education for several years it must be

easily three or four years, but for a considerable,
time has instituted a system of Continuation
Classes which are particularly designed to meet
that fourteen to sixteen or fourteen to seventeen
age-group. There are about 30 or 40 centres all
over the country, in addition to those in the Metro-
politan parish, in which intensive continuation work
is done so as to provide the port of training of which
the hon. member is now speaking, which will bring
them up to that level. In these Continuation Schools,
if the pupils have the academic aptitude, they do a
certain number of subjects leading to the General
Certificate which some of them write, or they go
to the commercial side and take the L.C.C. Ele-
mentary and the more persistent of them do the
Intermediate of Pitman's or whatever it is. This is
now actually going on, and you will probably find that
a large number of such persons already have the
requisite qualifications for the Community College.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, again under
Clause 3, it seems to me that this Community Col-
lege in conception is purely a place which would
give instruction. I would have thought that with this
range of subjects, the College would be empowered
to grant Diplomas or Certificates. When Igo through
the whole of this Bill, it seems to me that the College
is tied to a system of external examinations, and it
may be that within this range of subjects, you may
not be able to get an external examination which is
exportable. Some of these external examinations are
not exportable, but surely, you should have such
powers to give to the College. You call it a College
and you have to give it some status. You say that it
is a post-G.C.E. Institution, and if you want to de-
velop your own course in Business Studies, what is
going to happen to the people when they are finished?
That is not an exportable thing. You should have a
Clause whereby the College could grant Diplomas,
Certificates and things like that. I do not see any
power anywhere in the Schedule which deals with that.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, the hon, mem-
ber's point is well taken, but I would not expect the
Ministry of Education to be able to say now that the
Community College will be its own Diploma-granting
Institution. I would imagine that, as with most edu-
cational institutions, they would have to start under
some aegis or other, and when their standards are
easily verifiable, then they branch out on their own,
At a higher level, this was the case of the University
of the West Indies. From 1948 to 1962 it wrote the
Degrees of the University of London until it had its
own charter, and it now grants its own Degrees;
but educational institutions have this kindof teething
problem. That is nothing that we wouldobjectto. My
hope is to see a fully integrated College offering an
even wider range of subjects than this, and in time
producing its own Diploma which is recognized, not
only in this country for the purposes of employment,
but perhaps recognized by the University of the West
Indies and by other Universities as conferring cer-
tain credits and certain exemptions from their own
courses. I would like to say also that the time is
soon coming when all the Secondary Schools and
Secondary Institutions in this region will stop writ-

-- ,

ing Overseas Examinations and write examinations
managed and established by a Caribbean Examination
Board. When that time comes, it would be for the
Ministry of Education here or the Ministries of Edu-
cation in this region, to consult with the Caribbean
Examinations Board as to the kind of syllabus and
diploma which both bodies think would be proper for
an Institution such as this to have and to work to -
wards and which would be recognisable throughout
the whole region and beyond it. All of this, I think, is
coming; I have no doubt about it; and that is why I
say that the hon. member's point is so well taken.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, the Community
College is expected to commence in September.
If boys and girls who recently sat their G.C.E., and
even, as we expect, sometime around August, some
boys and girls find that they have got three G.C.E.
Levels in one sitting, and you have places in your
Community College and they turn up at the College
with three "0" Level certificates seeking admission
there, what would you do for them? (ASIDES) I You
could not admit them. At the present moment the
Government is subsidising Duff's Institute; are we
paying fees for students there? (A MEMBER: Civil
Servants.) Only for Civil Servants. Am I to under-
stand that you are not paying for any boys or girls
to take the Commercial course which will fit them
for taking their place in Commerce here? Are you
sure that you are not paying for any of those courses?
11.15 p.m.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I am aware that in the.......

Mr. HINDS: Mr Chairman, Sir, we are having
a lot of people in this gallery sucking their teeth.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would hate to think that the
hon. member is asking me to notice strangers inthe
gallery. I would like to say that visitors are here on
sufferance. At this moment I shall say no more. Let
the hon. member continue.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I was saying that the Gov-
ernment ......

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I have also noticed, andI hope
that the Hon. Minister will not now talk on Clause 14
when we are now dealing with Clause 3. Let the hon.
member continue.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I was explaining that in the
Government's Training Scheme, funds are provided
for training, either in this island or outside the
island, for Civil Servants. This is handled internally
by the Director of Training, and it is within this
Scheme that certain people in the Public Service are
sent to take courses at Duffs and to do advanced or
refresher training in Palantype machines and these
commercial arts. This is specialised training which
some members of the Public Service are getting.

Apart from that, I know of no other funds being
expended on people in this country by awarding scho-
larships or bursaries or any help whatever at these

Mr. HINDS: If it is five "O" Level subjects by
which you can be admitted to the College, is the Min-
ister going to stipulate that English must be one of
the five?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: English must be one.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: The question is that Clause 3
stand part.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am suggesting to the
Hon. Leader of the House an amendment that the word
"free" be added after the word "of" so as to make
it clear that free instruction will be given in any of
the following fields of education set out in the

I repeat that it does not follow that instruction
in any of the fields of education from (a) to (f) will
be free. You should make it clear that you do en-
visage free instruction in all of the fields -acting
within the policy of the Government of giving free
education from the cradle to the grave.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I said that when we come
to Clause 14, I myself will make an amendment which
will not only meet the approval and point of view of
hon. members opposite, but will be in keeping with
the Government's policy.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: The point is that you
should make it quite clear. Imagine telling a man
of University level that you are not charging him,
but telling a man at the Community College that you
will charge him.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I said that we are taking out
Clause 14 altogether.

Mr. HINDS: I quite support the view of the Leader
of the Opposition. For instance, Mr. Chairman, you
told me that under this section I was not entitled to
debate the question of fees; but, listening to the Leader
of the Opposition I now find myself fortified to do so,
to defy the ruling of the Chairman.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: What I wanted to say was that
the Leader of the Opposition was asking for an amend-
ment. Rule 45 (2) says:-

"Any proposed amendments of which notice
has not been given shall be handed to the Chairman
in writing."

Iwas only waiting until the amendment was given
notice of. I shall not permit any such fees to be talked:
about under Clause 3.

Mr. HINDS: All right, then, Mr. Chairman. With
all due respect to your Ruling, Clause 3 (2) says that
the aim of the College shall be to provide a place of
education offering instruction in all or any of the fol-
lowing fields of education, etc.

Am I not entitled to ask if this institution will
be offering instructions free or for money? I am


not going to mention the word fees at all. I am talk-
ing about money now. Am I not entitled to ask under
Clause 3 if this education is going to be free?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Yes. The answer is yes. I
told the hon. member that the point which is being
made is not only accepted by us, but will be rein-
forced when we come to Clause 14 because we are
going to take Clause 14 out.

The question that Clause 3 stand part, was put and re-
solved in the affirmative without division.

Clause 4 was called and passed.

Clause 5 was called and passed.

Clause 6 was called.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move
that Clause 6 stand part.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, Clause 6 (1) says:-

"There shall be established for the purposes of
the management of the College a body to be called
the Barbados Community College Board of Manage-

Clause 6 (2) says:-

"The provisions of the Schedule shall have ef-
fect as to the constitution, functions and procedure
of the Board and as to the organisation and staff of
the College and otherwise in relation thereto."

Thenwe have sub-Clause 3 which says that "the
Minister may from time to time by order amend the
provisions of the Schedule."

Mr. Chairman, it is our opinion on this side that
Parliament should not be deprived of having its voice
heard upon the Scheme of Management of this insti-
tution which, whether you call it a College or some
other institution there is no Statutory Board in which
the constitution and the functions of the Board of Man -
agement can be changed without reference back to
the Parliament of this country.

Only last week, Mr. Chairman, you will remem-
ber, when we were dealing with the Legal Aid Bill,
that there was a provision that the Cabinet on the ad-
vice of the Judicial Advisory Council could amend
the Scheme. You either give that in negative legisla-
tion or with positive legislation.

I suggest as an amendment, and I have it here
in writing, the words "the Minister may, subject to
the approval of Parliament, from time to time by
order amend the provisions of the Schedule."
11.25 p.m.

The Schedule contains the powers of the Board.
It contains the whole of the relationship between the

staff and the Board, and we in here who have to vote
money to provide for the maintenance of this College
are going to have no control nor no say at all in the
management! There is not one Statutory Board, not
one piece of legislation which the other side can
point to that has been passed before or after Inde-
pendence which authorises a Minister to enlarge the
functions of a Statutory Authority without reference
to Parliament. Sir, I have the amendment here. All
this means is that just as in a Statutory Board you
have to come in here with a Resolution stating: "Be
It Resolved that this House approves the so-and-
so...."... The point is that the Scheme is put up, and
members of this House will have an opportunity to
voice their opinion on the matter. It does not mean
that this House takes the function of the Minister in
creating the Scheme. It is the Minister who formu-
lates the Scheme, bu: this is an unusual pattern and,
in my submission, it is a pattern which, if accepted,
will be depriving Parliament of one of its essential

Mr. Chairman, I will delete Clause 4 and make
it a positive instead of a negative Resolution. I re-
member, Sir, this point about the National Insurance
Regulations. When those Regulations were made,
they were subject to a negative Resolution. Now,
psychologically, it is much better if the Government
has to move the Regulations. It will be circulated
with the Order Paper and all the Government has to
do is to lay it on the Table of the House, and unless
a negative Resolution is brought the Regulations will
automatically go through. It is much better to make
it positive.

Mr. CRAIG: I beg to second that.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I would
like to suggest to the hon. member that it would be
more scientific to change "negative" to "affirma-

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, I accept that sug-

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: With respect to the
hon. member's amendment, there will be fewer words
and more scientific in draftsmanship.

Mr. St. JOHN: I will withdraw my amendment
to 6 (3), and ask that 6 (4) be amended. In 6 (4), in-
stead of the word "negative" I would say "affirma-
tive, and that conforms with the Interpretation Act.
May I state here for the benefit of people who may
not know that the expression "subject to an affirma-
tive Resolution" when used in relation to any sta-
tutory instrument or statutory document shall mean
that such instruments or documents shall not come
into operation until affirmed by a Resolution in this

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, before you
put the motion, could I know precisely what the
amendments are?

Mr. St. JOHN: In Clause 4 the word "negative"
should be deleted and the word "affirmative" sub-


stituted therefore. The object of that is that under
Section 41(5) of the Interpretation Act it says: "The
expression 'subject to an affirmative Resolution'
when used in relation to any statutory instruments
or statutory documents shall mean that such in-
struments or documents shall not come into opera-
tion unless and until affirmed by a Resolution of
each Chamber."

Section 41 (7) says "The expression 'subject
to a negative Resolution' which you have here -
when used: in relation to any statutory instruments
or statutory documents shall mean that such instru-
ments or documents shall, as soon as may be after
they are made, be laid before each Chamber, and if
either Chamber, within the statutory period next
after any such instrument or document has been so
laid, resolve that the instrument or document shall
be annulled, the instrument or document shall be
void as from the date of the Resolution, but without
prejudice to the validity of anything done thereunder
or: to the making of a new instrument or document."

My point is, Sir, that, if you put "subject to an
affirmative Resolution," in an important matter like
this, it is circulated beforehand and the Scheme or
arrangement is circulated as a document, and mem-
bers will get an opportunity of studying it; and bring -
ingforward a Resolution in positive form is a much
better way 'than doing it in a negative manner.

There was an instance of the National Insur -
ance Regulations issued the other day, and if it were
not a negative Resolution when it came to the House
there would have been no necessity for the hon. se-
nior member for St. James to raise his point.
11.35 p.m.

'It does'not do violence to any drafting, and you
are using the language straight out of the Interpre-
tation Act.

The question that sub-clause 4 of Clause 6 be amended
by deleting the word "negative" and substituting therefore the
word "affirmative", was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

The question that Clause 6 as amended stand part was
put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Clauses 7 and 8 were called and passed.

Clause 9 was called. It reads as follows:

:9. -The- funds and resources of the Board
shalUconsist of -

(a) such sums as may be voted for the
purposes of the College by Parliament;

(b) all other sums of property which
may in any manner become payable to or
S, !.vested in the Board in respect of any mat-
ter incidental to its functions.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to move that Clause 9
stand part.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, Clause 9 speaks in
terms of money.

Mr. Chairman, that man Menzies Chase is an-

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would like to read Standing
Order 69 (2). It reads as follows:

"If any Member takes notice that strangers are
present,the Speaker, or in Committee the Chairman,
shall put forthwith the question 'That Strangers do
withdraw' ,without permitting any debate or amend-

If any hon. member takes notice that strangers'
are present, I would have no other alternative than
to clear the Gallery.

Mr. HINDS: The alternative is to ask the Mar-
shal to put Menzies Chase at the door.

This Section, Mr. Chairman, says that "the
funds and resources of the Board shall consist of
(a) such sums as may be voted for the purpose of the
College by Parliament." We are wondering if the
Minister could give us a round figure as to what the
launching of this College is going to cost us initially.

In sub-clause (b) it says: "All other sums or
property which may in any manner become payable
to or vested in the Board in respect of any matter
incidental to its functions."

Now I think I am right in saying that I under-
stood the Minister of Education to say from time to
time that he was expecting some assistance from
some other Government in establishing this College.
It is at this stage that I feel we are entitled to ask
what he expects to receive from any other Govern-
ment or any other source, and to be given even in
roundfigures a rough estimate of what is the launch-
ing likely to cost us. After all Mr. Chairman, one
must appreciate the fact that it is going to cost money
but we should not sit here and pass this Bill and then
find that the sums asked for are far beyond what we
on this side had been anticipating. Undoubtedly the
Leader of the House, the Introducer of the Bill,
could not have been sent here without having tucked
away somewhere about his brain some knowledge as
to what sum is likely to be involved in getting this
Community College off its feet, especially when he
affirms that it is going to be in operation by Sep-
tember. I want to hear from the Minister what in-
formationhe has on this. If you have a building, Mr.
Chairman, the Hon. Minister must have some plan'
for renovation or extension or whatever he is going
to do with it. You should have some idea of what it
is going to cost in the first year or first term or
something. I do not want to tease the Hon. Leader
of the House, because he would not run his father's


business like this. I feel that if the Minister searches
his file, he must have an estimate somewhere that
he can give us. In other words, has any construction
work or anything been carried out at this College?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: We could not; we would not
have this appropriation to do it from. I explained to
the House earlier today that this Bill is not a money
Bill,although obviously it has financial implications,
because when you pass the Act which empowers the
Community College to be set up, you have got to look
for money to service it. At the same time, the Min-
istry of Education will now have to submit to Cabi-
net a Resolution with all its costing information
arising out of'the Act. In other words, the financial
implications of the Act which is now being passed
will have to come to Cabinet for a separate supple-
mentary Resolution to be put before the House in
Committee of Supply; but I certainly have no infor-
mation now to tell the hon. member about this, be-
cause it just did not occur to us.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to say
something on this particular Clause, and I am glad
my colleague raised it, because earlier in the eve-
ning, during the course of the speech of the hon. ju-
nior member for St. Peter, he queried the cost of
this project. The hon. senior member for St. Michael
said that when it comes to education, nothing can be
too costly. That is wild language. We cannot extract
from the Minister how many Tutors there will be.
We know you are going to have a Principal and Deputy
Principal. Have you no idea of how many Tutors
there will be and what are the salaries you envisage
paying these people? Have you no idea of how many
desks there will be, laboratory facilities and so on?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: That is a different question,
because this is a question of the structure of the
College. It is proposedto create and the hon. mem-
ber would have to work out the cost for himself be-
cause the Minister has not worked it out here a
post of Principal; two posts of Senior Tutor, one
academic, one business; six posts of Tutor, five
academic, one business; 13 posts of Assistant Tutor;
one Registrar; two Stenographers; one Supervisor;
one Laboratory Technician; one Messenger-Driver;
two Cleaners; two Groundsmen; one Watchman.
11.45 p.m.
You could arrive at the salaries if I give you
the information which I have available here. The
Principal will be in the "G" scale. The Senior Tutor
will be in the "I" scale; the Tutorwill be in the "J"
scale; Assistant Tutors will be in the scale G.E.
1-A; Registrar in the scale G.3 to G.1; Clerical Of-
ficers, G. 12 G.A; Stenographer T.3; Supervisor,
G.7; Laboratory Technician, G.7 G.6; Messenger-
Driver, L.3; Cleaner, Key Scale 52 cents per hour;
Groundsman, Key Scale 66 cents aa hour; Watchman
$4.40 per day. That is as much as I have here. A
Supplementary Resolution will give this, plus what-
ever the appropriate salary amounts are in the
scales. The hon. member will see this, but I cannot
give him any more information because I do not have
any more.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, there is just one
little question which I would like to ask and it is
this; what relation do these salaries bear to, let
us say, salaries at Harrison College or in our First
and Secoad Grade Schools?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I told the
hon. member the scales; I would have to have the
collateral information on the staffs of the Secondary
Schools in order to see which members of these
Staffs are in which scale. If the hon. member could
possess himself with patience, whenever the Supple.
mentary Resolution comes down to this House, all
this information will be in. This Bill cannot estab-
lish the posts.

Mr. HINDS: I wonder if the Minister is willing
to admit that it is within his knowledge that the Staff
of this College will be better provided for by way
of salaries than the other teachers who happen to
be members of the Association of Assistant Teachers
in Secondary Schools.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I cannot say
so at this stage. If I were to admit that I knew this,
I would be admitting that I am deceiving the hon.
member. I really cannot say so.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Does the hon. member
seriously say that he came in here without finding
out some round figure, at least, of what this will

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I am not saying so.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I expected that to be
the answer; yet the hon. member gets annoyed when
I say that I would not believe him on oath.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: There are two hon. members
on their feet.

The question that Clause 9 stand part of the Bill was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Clause 10 was called and passed.

Clause 11 was called. It reads as followed:

11. (1) The Board shall submit to the Minister -

(a) within three months after the end of
each academic year, or within such further
time as the Minister may allow, a report
on the activities of the College during that
academic year;

(b) onor before the 1st October in each
year, a statement of its accounts, audited
in accordance with the provisions of sec-
tion 10, for the financial year ending in
such year;


(c) on or before the 31st October in each
year, its estimates of revenue and expen-
diture for the College in respect of the next
financial year for the approval of the Min-

(2) Copies of the reports and statements to-
gether with the auditor's reports thereon mentioned
in subsection (1) (a) and (b) shall be laid on the ta-
bles of the Senate and House of Assembly.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move
that Clause 11 stand part of the Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: The question is that Clause 11
stand part. Hon. members in favour......

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, Clause 11 tells us
that annual reports, a Statement of accounts and
estimates must be provided, and it says that "within
three months after the end of each academic year,
or within such future time as the Minister may al-
low" (Hon. N. W. BOXILL: "Future" or "further"?)
I am sorry, Sir, "such further time as the Minister
may allow." I am sorry for that, but hon. members
onthe other side know that I can read and read well.
It says that "the Board shall submit to the Minis-
ter a report on the activities of the College during
that academic year." We have had some experiences
with these Statutory Boards. Some of them do not
present their reports within the stipulated time of
six months. Some are today presenting them after
more than three years have elapsed. Take the ac-
counts of the present Ministry of Education; for-
tunately for the Hon. Leader of the House, he is not
now the Minister, but he must admit I am sure
that he is willing to admit that he left them in a
complete mess, in chaos. During his term of office
there was a case of money being spent, as they spent
it in Grenada, some years ago squandermania.
There was the squandering of money, and what we
are saying is that, unfortunately for us, the Minis-
ter of Education is not answerable in this Chamber
as such; hence whatever he allows his Board to do
when it comes to the question of submitting annual
reports and Statements of Accounts, estimates and
things of that sort, he is just there. He does not
have to answer although we have to vote the money.
Whether it is properly accounted for or not, they
will expect us to vote for it; and if they know that
we are not prepared to vote for it, they have their
army waiting. What we want to see is that the Hon.
Leader of the House gives us an undertaking that
they will try and see that the provisions of this sec -
tion are adhered to, and that we will get these re-
ports within the period of three months. I see that
the hon. member is shaking his head and that he is
ready and willing to give us that undertaking.

The question that Clause 11 stand part of the Bill was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Clause 12 was called and passed.

Clause 13 was called. It reads as follows:

13. The Minister may, after consultation
with the Board, give to the Board -

(a) directions of a general character as
to the policy to be followed in the exercise
and performance of its functions in mat-
ters appearing to him to concern the public

(b) directions for the remedying of any
serious defect or failure in the successful
performance of its functions;

and the Board shall give effect to such directions.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I begto move
that Clause 13 stand part of the Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
11.55 p.m.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, under Clause 13 (b)
it says that the Minister may, after consultation
with the Board, "give to the Board directions for
the remedying of any serious defect or failure in
the successful performance of its functions."

This to my mind is one which raises some of
the dangers which have been referred to. It would
appear as if the Minister is being invested with too
much power. I disagree with this paragraph from
this point of view, and I hope that the Minister would
find it possible to interpret this particular Clause
for me.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: If the member searched the
relevant legislation dealing with Statutory Boards
he will see that there is this similar provision. The
Minister gives directions. You will find it with the
Transport Board, the Caribbean Broadcasting Cor-
poration and I think, the Urban Development Cor-
poration and the Agricultural Development
Corporation. This is nothing new in it.

Mr. CRAIG: Would it not be better as in other
schools to have a Governing Body than a Statutory
Board? In a Statutory Board the Minister has the
right to revoke an appointment. Iam asking if it would
not be a good idea rather to have Governing Bodies
of the schools where there is less political inter-

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I cannot understand the at-
titude that speaks of political interference. What
sort of person would accept appointment to a Statu-
tory Board and not expect the Minister to give direc-
tions for the carrying out of the policy of the Board?

Of course you can have a Statutory Board whose
members are at variance with the Minister. It is
not always a question of revoking an appointment,
but the Minister must be able to give directions on


policy, and he must be able to say that this or that
defect in the execution of policy should be remedied
and that that is where he thinks it ought to be reme-
died in keeping with the policy already laid down or
to be laid down.

Whenhe talks about political interference, if you
have Ministers executing policy through Statutory
Boards, what interference do you expect other than
political interference? It should not be arbitrary or
capricious, but if it is based with reference to the
policy of the Minister of the Government, he gives
directions in the light of that policy.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, this ques-
tion comes up periodically. A Minister is a politi-
cianas such -not a religious Minister. If a Minister
is responsible for everything that goes wrong, he
must interfere politically to see that things are kept

A Minister appoints a Board with the approval
of Cabinet. Although you see a Minister here, he
still has to have the approval of the Cabinet. He has
to put up his proposals to the Cabinet. I want to make
it clear that political interference by one who is re -
sponsible is better than interference, non-political
by a Civil Servant.

Mr. HINDS: When the hon. member who has just
sat down speaks about a Minister being responsible
- responsible to whom? Under this Bill to whom is
the Minister responsible?

Hon. C. E. TALMA: The Minister is responsi-
ble to the Cabinet, and ultimately to Parliament.

The question that Clause 13 stand part was put and re-
solved in the affirmative without division.

Clause 14 was called.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move
the deletion of Clause 14. It conflicts with the es -
tablishing policy of the Government. I do not see
how it escaped me.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

The Schedule was called.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move
that this be the Schedule to the Bill.

Hon. C, E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, Clause 14 of the
Schedule says that "the Principal of the College, in
this Schedule referredto as the Principal, shall be
appointed by the Board with the prior approval of
the Minister." I have never seen in any of the statu-

tory legislation of this country the word "prior"
12.05 p.m.

What does it mean? As I understand it, it means
that before the Board can consider anybody for ap-
pointment, they have to inform the Minister first
andobtain his approval. I can understand, in the pat-
tern of all of your Statutory Board legislation, that
appointments above a certain level will have to be
approval by the Minister; but what is the meaning
of "prior approval"? I move that the word "prior"
be deleted? What is meant by "prior approval"?
(ASIDES) If you tellme about C.B.C., I know that the
Board recommended Ian Gale for the post of Gen-
eral Manager, but the Minister did not agree with it.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: That does not stand part of
the Bill.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, I was only trying
to find out by using comparison and actual instances.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Again I say that this sitting is
not suspended, and Iexpect hon. members to observe
Standing Orders.

Mr. St. JOHN: Clause 12 states:

"the staff of the College shall consist of
a Principal and such number of Senior Tutors
Tutors and other employees as the Board, sub-
ject to the approval of the Minister, may from
time to time determine."

You do not have any prior approval there. Why do
you want to have prior approval?

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I only want to know
if the members of the Board are going to be paid
for attending meetings and, if so, how much? There
is also a point here with regard to Clause 17(2)
which states:

"On first appointment a member of the
teaching staff shall be required to serve a pro-
bationary period of one year unless the Board,
with the prior approval of the Minister, dis-
penses with the requirement to serve a pro-
bationary period."
Do you not think, Mr. Chairman, that with the re-
tention of this Clause there poses a problem for an
applicant? There are no two ways about it. This is
a personnel matter, so to speak, and personnel mat-
ters ought to be dealt with by the Principal and the
Board, and by all means refer them to the Minister
in due course. I would like to hear what the Leader
has to say on Clause 17(2) regarding this probation-
ary period. There is an expression that if somebody
does not like your head you.will serve the proba-
tionary period, but if you find favour with somebody,
andwith the prior approval of the Minister, you will
be retained. (ASIDES) Do not worry with him; just
get up and reply to me. He can provoke things and
make them go too far.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: The Hon. Minister was mak-.
ing a valid point. He was asking why it is always
assumed that a Minister will act irrationally or ir-
responsibly. The point the hon. member made is an-
swered this way. I have answered it before. I have
said that even now under present conditions the Head
of a Grammar School can dismiss with only one
month's notice any member of his staff still on pro-
bation, and there is no question of the right of appeal
or re-hearing, or even asking for a second chance if
you have a chance. This can happen now. Whether or
not the teachers have a strong Trade Union is be-
sides the point here. As I see it, there is greater se-
curity in this Bill I am not now talking about people
on probation even for people appointed than there is
under present conditions.

Mr. HINDS: You have not answered the point
about whether you are going to pay members of the

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I see no provision here for

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I wouldlike the Leader
of the House to go back to Clause 3(2) on which I
made a comment on the Second Reading.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: 3(2) of the Schedule?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Yes. The Minister may,
'if he thinks it expedient'. "Expedient" is too wide
and wild a word. Look across the page to Clause
13(a) and see the words used there. Instead of "ex-
pedient", I am asking the Leader of the House to
look at 13 and see the words used there. I refer to
the words "in matters appearing to him to concern
the public interest." He gives directions to the Board
on matters of public interest. Is notthat a far bet-
ter expression to use than the word "expedient"?
How can a question of public interest be expedient?
It may be expedient to deceive the public, but it is
not necessarily in the public interest. (ASIDES)

I used to teach once in an elementary school a
long time ago, and I am not starting it again now. If
the hon. members do not understand, then they do
not understand. Let them get a dictionary and look
it up.

Mr. HINDS: I wouldlike to ask the Minister this
one question. Are there going to be varying degrees
of expediency?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Yes.

The question that the Schedule stand part was put and re-
,solved in the affirmative without division.
12.15 a.m.

On motion of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by Hon. C. E.
TALMA, Mr. CHAIRMAN reported the passing of one Bill in
Committee with amendments, and Mr. SPEAKER resumed the
Chair and reported accordingly.

On separate motions of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by
Hon. C. E. TALMA, the Bill as amended was read a third time
and passed.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I do not pro-
pose to do any further Government Business now.

I beg to move that this Sitting be now suspended
until 10.00 a.m. of this day's date.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: On a point of order, it
is silly to talk about suspending the sitting. If the
objection is raised about a new Order Paper, can't
the Hon. Leader of the House m.ke a motion that the
Order Paper for tomorrow shall be today's Order
Paper? You suspend the sitting in spite of what some
hon. members may think ask the Clerks of the
House of Commons for a time, just as His Hon-
our the Speaker has already suspended for an hour
today. But when you are dealing with a new day, you
adjourn the House. You can adjourn, and the Order
Paper remains the Order Paper of the day. You are
starting something fresh. There is nothing before
the House to suspend the sitting on and take up where
you left off. Why can't hon. members on the other
side believe that sometimes, at any rate, sugges-
tions from this side are right and have sense behind

The question that this sitting be now suspended until
10.0l a.m. on Wednesday, 17th July, 1968, was put and re-
solved in the affirmative without division, and Mr. .SPEAKER
suspended the sitting accordingly.

12.20 a.m.
On Resumption.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: When the sitting was
suspended earlier today, Government Business was
under consideration.

Order No. 2 stands in the name of the Hon.
Leader of the House, and it is to move the House
into Committee of supply to consider the grant of
sums of money for the service of the Island.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I beg
to move that Your Honour do now leave the Chair
and the House go into Committee of Supply, and that
itbe an instruction to the House while in Committee
of Supply to deal with the two money Resolutions of
which notice was given earlier in this sitting.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr.. DEPUTY SPEAKER left the Chair and the
House went into Committee of Supply, Mr. YEARWOOD in' the



Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, as the Ad-
dendum sets out, the sum of $21,447 is required to
meet the cost of repairs to areas along the sea coast
which have been damaged by the sea and to make
provision for any minor damage which may occur
during the current financial year. The estimated
costof repairs to areas already damaged is $16,447
as follows: (1) completionof Greaves End $5,697.00;
(ii) area between the Barbados Marketing Corpora-
tion and the Harbour Gate $5,550.00; (iii) area
near the former College of Arts & Science $5,200.00.
The sum of $5,000 is included for unforeseen works.

As everyone in here would remember, Mr.
Chairman, this is the hurricane season; but apart
from that, between January and February of some
years and I have been promising to study it we
get, about four days in a month during which there
are some heavy ground swells which tend to damage
the sea defences. You will remember that as soon
as we became members of the Legislature, the Deep
Water Harbour was threatened because of some of
these swells which started scouring out the Harbour
and we had to bring in the Highways and Transport
Department to do some work and they did a first
class job. Since then we have had a similar incident
recentlywhich tookplace at the Esplanade and at the
beach facilities at Greaves End which completely
tookdown the wall. This money is being asked for in
case anything happens so that I can move in im-
mediately, without having to come to the Legislature
for approval of money, and arrest the situation be-
fore it gets too far, even if we do not completely
finish the job and we have to come back to the House
and ask for more money.

I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to second that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, this is not a Reso-
lution to be opposed by anyone, and I do not propose
attemptingto do so today. Nevertheless, Sir, it can-
not be denied, as we have got from the mouth of the
Minister in charge of the Resolution, that there are
times when we get unaccustomed tides and conse-
quent damage to our sea defences. The Minister also
made mentionof the fact that at some times we were
tempted to throw a portion of the blame for some
of this damage on the siting of the Deep-Water Har-
bour. I am somewhat inclined to the view that at
areas stretching along Fontabelle area and Brandon,
Brighton area and at Prospect as well as further
along the West Coast, there has been what might be
classified as encroachment and damage caused to
properties in the area, and we feel that the Minis -
ter's request for this sum might better be served if
a complete survey could be carried out. It could not
be expected to produce 100 per cent accurate results,
but much information might be gleaned from persons
who have reasons to pay attention to the change of
tides and to weather conditions, because you usually
find when the sea is disturbed that the weather over
the land is also the unexpected type of weather.

From what I know, I can say that observations
are being carried out along the West Coast where
wooden structures bearing red flags have been
planted, and periodic visits are paid by those con-
cerned using red-painted boats to see where the
sea's encroachment is likely to cause concern. I am
to wonder if the Minister can enlighten us on this or if
his Ministry is in any way in touch with the survey
which I am sure everyone on the West Coast of this
Island welcomes. I have not been on the other side
of the Island to know what is being done or if some-
thinglike this is beingattempted. I do not know over
what period of time the survey will stretch but I
appreciate that it cannot be done in a day, and in
fact might take years; but we have got to try to alert
property owners even in their own interest to note
at what times of the year they experience these
tides, and report either to the Police Stations or to
the appropriate Government body any unusual cur-
rents or changes of tides which in any respect tend
to justify the knowledge that encroachment took place
at a particular point at a particular time of the year,
as the case may be.
10.10 a.m.

Now, Sir, this Resolution is for the sum of
$21,447 and it is required tomeet the cost of the
repairs to areas along the sea coast which have been
damaged by the sea, and to make provision for any
minor damage which may occur during the current
financialyear. I think I have it that the Minister gave
us to understand that the damage referred to in the
Addendum to this Resolution is supposed to have
occurred, roughly, during the months of January and
February of this year. I think I am right in assuming
that the Minister tried to convey this to us. That
being so, he might be attempting to take care of the
situation by asking that consideration be given for
him to meet any unforeseen minor damage for the
rest of the financial year. At the Esplanade on Bay
Street I find that there is the need for some sort of
railing, whether of concrete pillars or whatever you
call it, decorative or else, or it might be ordinary
galvanised pipe or some metal rail which would stand
up to the salt from the sea. At the Esplanade there
is a long stretch, and you will find that people with
children and nurses I see them at night you see
people with their children walking along the sea
front up there, and I feel that some sort of railing
should be put up there, not to obstruct anything, but
to add to the beauty of the area. It would help to en-
hance the beauty of the area at the Esplanade, and it
would serve an extremely useful purpose in protect-
ing the lives of people, and particularly the lives of
little children who are taken 'hre on afternoons by
their guardians, nurses or who elsesto give them an
opportunity to play there.

I do not know what this completion of Greaves
End really means, and I am asking the Minister if he
would try to enlighten me in any way on it. I under-
standthat in the area of the Barbados Hilton, people
are not permitted to go there and bathe freely. I un-
derstand that there is some gentleman who took it


upon himself to order people away from a part of
that beach not far from the Hilton Hotel, but evi-
dently in the Graves End area people who had
gone there with their luncheon baskets a party of
two and they were rendered somewhat uncomfor-
table. Fortunately, there was in that party someone
who knew of their rights, and the gentleman who had
tried to have these people removed from the area
didn't meetwith the success which he had expected.
Think that this is a case in which the Minister might
be in a position somewhat to be able to tell us ex-
actly what this completion of Graves End really
means,and to assure us that it is not an area where
any private person just feels within himself that
perhaps, because of the colour of the skin of others
around, they are not entitled to be in that particular
area. I just want an assurance from the Minister that
that is not the case.

Now, Sir, as to the area between the Barbados
Marketing Corporation and the Harbour Gate, the
cost of repairs is estimated at $5,550.
10.20 a.m.

One thing that comes to my mind is this. I won-
der if the Minister can tell us or is in a position to
tell us whether the repairs have already been car-
ried out or are now to be executed. Are we to vote
money for work that has already been done? I feel
that there is a necessity for a full investigation of
conditions even from the Public Health point of
view in this area.

And the Minister may very wll find that the sea
defence work at this point requires much more than
the sum asked for here in this Resolution. I do not
for a single moment feel that the Minister would
try to come before us and have us vote money for a
matter of this sort unless it was absolutely neces-
sary; that is the confidence we have in the Minister
on this particular occasion.

I cannot stress too highly the necessity for not
only repairs to sea defences, but even beach pro-
tection in this particular respect. I must say again
that beaches along the West Coast are now kept not
in a sanitary manner as was the case prior to the
abolition of the Local Government.

I well remember seeing beach cleaners atwork
along the West Coast from time to time and it was
something to be welcomed. All of this has now dis-
appeared. On the beaches along the West Coast from
time to time you find dead animals, and as far as we
can gather, there is no one now on whom you can
call 'as in the past and report that you have seen a
dead animal on the beach, and have it removed with
the quickness as was the case in the past.

There is another point which I would like to draw
to the Minister's attention onthis question of sea de-
fences. I must say that in the Prospect area in St.
James where I live, andfurtheralongthe coast there
have been constructed some culverts or tunnels for
taking water from the hills and carrying it to the
sea. Now you find that undoubtedly there are three

which come to my mindmost readily-there is abun-
dant evidence that the engineering ability applied to
the construction of these tunnels or culverts was
certainly sub-standard.

As a consequence you find that there is now a
recurrent expenditure where the sea almost daily
and weekly throws the sand into these tunnels, and
labourers from the Northern District have got to go
regularly and remove that sand which is deposited
in these tunnels. In the three which I have in mind,
in the Prospect and Fitts Village area, in each case
the poorest of engineers can go there today and see
that with proper supervision these tunnels could have
been constructed in such a manner that it would take a
truly exceptional tide to bring the sand and deposit
it in these tunnels. I see the Minister of Trade seems
to be saying that it is true.

Let us deal with the first of these tunnels which
I have in mind. This one passes between two plots
of land belonging to Mr. K. C. Browne, the Solicitor.
The biggest novice about building can go and see that
there is a height of more than 12 to 15 feet in the
Prospect Bridge on the seaside, but on the land side
there is a height at which any engineer who knew
what he was about and not merely trying to save
money on the project any sensible engineer would
have gone on the land side of the beach and arrested
the flow of water before it dropped.

If we gave it a distance of even eight feet from
the bottom of the bridge or even 12 feet, it would
still, when you reach underthe bridge, be, say, three
feet higher so that when you reach by the sea and
you give yourself one drop, you will still be 12 feet
higher at that end where you put down your gabions.
10.30 a.m.

Believe me, when I go along the beach and I see
this type of job, I say to myself that I am glad I am
not an engineer at least the one who did that job.
If he had done that job for a private employer, I
am sure he would have been asked to pay for it and
he would hardly have got another job in Barbados.

I am not trying to deprive the labourers who are
employed weekly to remove the sand that has been
deposited there by the sea. I am not at all trying to
deprive them of a job; but in the particular tunnel
with which I am dealing, where they have left what
we call the ridge Iam not an engineer and I do not
know the technical term for it one can go there
right now and put down a 2-inch concrete slab on top
of what they left off up to a point of from 4 ft. to 6 ft.
beyond the bridge on the land side. It would throw off
every drop of water that flows down there, and we
would never see sand deposited there unless the sea
reached the height it had reached in the year 1955
when we had Hurricane "Janet". I am confident
about that.

There is one that runs next to my own land and
land at Good Shepherd School. Definitely if one were
to go there and seewhere the engineer decided to af-
ford water a drop, whichwas unnecessary, one would


see the position. You drop the base of your tunnel so
low that when you reach the sea it would actually be
in the sea. You may put two gabion baskets against
which the sea may beat, but, to my mind, it is just
causing unnecessary recurrent expenditure which
could have been avoided if the engineers knew what
they were doing. Perhaps if a layman had been
asked to give an opinion, the additional expenditure
could have been saved.

When we go to the house called "Quinta mia" at
Fitts Village the situation is worse. I can go just
past Sandy Lane, next to the St. James' Rectory,
and see a similar situation obtaining there. It shows
clearly that, when this work is being carried out, no-
body is paying sufficient attention to what should be
done. In other words, because you employ an engineer
and he is a Specialist, you accept everythinghe does
regardless of what it cost the taxpayer in the long
run. That is not good enough.

We have some people in this Island who have
never had an opportunity to get this Specialist train-
ing, but we have people who have been ordinary
Foremen in the Public Works Department who
would tell you that if they had been entrusted with
the construction of these drains they would never
have been like this.

Mr. Chairman, I believe that I have saidenough
on this matter, and Imusturge upon the Minister to
see what information he can get to help him to base
his findings on a much sounder footing. This ques-
tion of sea defence work is something that has to be
approached and tackled from time to time, and no-
body would be annoyed with his making a proper
survey as best he can and coming before this House
and having a considerable sum voted, if this work
is going to be carried out properly. The best re-
sults would go to the property owners along the sea
Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Chairman, if Ican
add anything to this debate to help the hon. junior
member for St. Peter with regard to erosion on the
West Coast of Barbados and in general, it must be
remembered that Barbados is a coral-formation
Island. If the pattern of this Island is watched on
the entire West Coast, you will find that the erosion
takes place between the coral reefs. A coral reef
in one position with another coral reef North or
South of it means that the erosion actually takes place
in the indentation. The heaviest indented bays inthis
Island will always be between two main reefs.

Barbados is situated within the area of the
trade wind belt. Twice every month you will have
spring tides: a spring tide with the new moon, and a
spring tide with the full moon. During the period be-
tween November to March when the trade winds are
strongest, Barbados' geographical position as the
first land-fall from the Atlantic forms a barrier,
and if these trade winds are blowing strong during
the period of new moon or full moon when you will
have your maximum tides, they would be aggra-
vated by these things which would cause very heavy

It is not only these things to which I have re-
ferred, Mr. Chairman. The hon. junior member for
St. Peter is not the only person that I have heard
make remarks that erosion has taken place on the
West Coast since the building of the Deep Water Har-
bour. That is untrue. The West Coast of this Island
has been eroding now for many years. I was born in
Fontabelle, and I know this entire Coast. Long be-
fore the Deep Water Harbour was built, all along
Brandon Beach, where there is now sea, there used
to be trees growing on the beach. The sea was a far
greater distance from the shore than it is now. It
has eroded hundreds of manchineel trees and other
trees that lined that entire beach.

One of the main sources that must be remem-
bered in a coral-formation Island that coral is
something that is living, and that due to the amount
of dynamiting and explosion that have taken place
along this entire area, all of the coral polyps have
been killed. Therefore there is no more building up
of this reef to form a natural protection for the
Island. In all coral Islands where you find offshore
reefs, the reefs offshore form the portection to stop
erosion. If the reefs are no longer living whereby
they can grow up and come higher to sea level to
form a natural barrier, then erosion will take place.

It is the same, Mr. Chairman, as forming
groynes. Groynes form one side of a protection; but
wherever you put a groyne, and you watch it care-
fully, you will find scouring taking place between any
two groynes because part of it is the same sand that
built up one area and it must come from somewhere
else. The usual tendency in this area is a West/North-
West equatorial current, and the strength of the
current coming down will put deposits on one side
and take them from another. I am perfectly sure
that there are areas now where, as a boy, I used to
play under trees, and today the roots of them are
now in the sea. This is the entire pattern of the en-
tire West Coast.
10.40 a.m.

The hon. member has been making mention of
drainage and canals on that side. Again I would like
to draw to his attention that during the period of
about two days before a full moon or new moon and
two days after, you get excess high tide. Now in
Barbados, the highest spring tides and the lowest
tides you will find would be during the month of May,
If we had strong winds during the month of May to-
gether with any Atlantic disturbances like Atlantic
gales,.you would find that scouring would take place
during that period, because if it takes place when
there is a full moon or new moon with two days on
either side, when aggravated by the trade winds, the
scouring would be much heavier. The entire coast
stretching from Christ Church Lighthouse to the
North Point Lighthouse has eroded considerably
on certain days during the last fifty years. I can
afford to say this; so it is not due specifically on the
West Coast to the siting of the DeepWater Harbour.
Any person who lived on that coast can tell you that
long before the siting of the Deep Water Harbour
erosion was taking place in that area.


Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, it is something to be
regretted that with the abundance of expertise avail-
able to Government through the Hon. Minister, we
still find conditions obtaining after the canals which
I have complained about were constructed. If the
Hon. Minister's nautical knowledge had been made
available to the engineers carrying out this con-
struction work, they would have in the first place
timed the execution of the work, and so meshed it in
so as to see for themselves what is expected to hap-
pen at a particular time of the year, and construct
the canals to see how best they could combat such
situations. I wonder if this knowledge was passedon
to the engineers to help them in the construction of
these canals.

I can appreciate what the Hon. Minister said
about Barbados' coral and that it is something living;
but I do not subscribe to the view that on the West
Coast there has been this amount of dynamiting to
have so destroyed the life of the coral. There has
been dynamiting by the lawless, but let us picture
in our minds the almost twelve-mile stretch of coast-
line. To what extent would there have to be dyna-
miting to thwart the growth of the coral in the area?
I have lived on the West Coast for about fifteen years
now, and I want to tell the Minister that sea life is
my hobby while it has been his vocation, and in my
own interest I pay special attention to it. I am will-
ing to say that I do not have the expert knowledge
of the Minister on these matters, but I am also
willing to bet that any resident inthe area or anyone
interested in the sea in the area would tell you that
the flow of water that approaches from Bats Rock
and Charles Fort Area to an area north of the Risk
at St. James is vastly greater since the construction
of the Deep Water Harbour. If the siting of the Har-
bour is not responsible for the shifting of the tide,
I do not know what is; but unless the Harbour had
been sited there and something else had been sited
further north......

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order,
I can scarcely hear the hon. member forthe amount
of noise that is emanating from behindthe Chamber.
Would you be so kind as to ask the Clerk or the
Marshal to go and stop it? I do not know if you can
hear me.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I do not know what
type of construction has been carried out, if any,
as far north as the North Point U.S. Facilities area,
but I am willing to agree with the Hon. Minister that
between any two such points as the Deep Water Har-
bour and if there had been any construction at any
other point further north, you might experience
shifting of tides or a greater flow of water and a
greater amount of erosion, encroachment bythe sea
or whatever you might call it.
10.50 a.m.

I still maintain that since the construction of the
Deep Water Harbour, anybody on the West Coast as
far north as "Quaco Bob", must give the Minister
the information that he has been experiencing a con-
siderably greater flow of water approaching the land.

I am not saying that the Harbour is the cause of it,
because I am not an authority on this type of thing;
but the Minister might be in a position to enlighten
us on this matter.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Chairman,the hon.
member should remember that the line of the wall
of the breakwater is in a northerly direction, and the
flow of the current would be somewhat slightly west
or to the left of the angle of the running wall. What
the hon. member should remember is that prior to
the building of the Deep Water Harbour, there was
Pelican Island, and if we should get any extra flood-
ing or building up of tides, that should be on the
southern side along the Marketing Corporation; and
that angle has blocked off the flow of water which
would normally have come between the Island of
itself and Pelican Island. Now, that has been ac-
tually blocked off; so if there is anything, I think
that the water should flow back on the southern side
of the Harbour rather than encroach on the northern
side. In other words, with the southern winds blow-
ing, the flow of water formerly would come between
Pelican Island and come along down. That has been
cut off; so that if there is any building up, it should
be building up on the other side. I cannot see, from a
commonsense point of view, how it could buildup on
the other side. If the wall of the Harbour was running
at a different angle, that could cause the flow of wa-
ter to build up; but the wall is at a northerly and a
slightly west angle in the same direction of the nor-
mal flow of the equatorial current which prevails
around Barbados. It would only be in between where
the water would flow along the breakwater and Peli-
can Island which would stop that from flowing down
more, it would have to be built up on the southern
side. I do not quite see how the Deep Water Harbour
could be responsible for any building upof currents.

As I said before, long before the Deep Water
Harbour was built, all along Fresh Water Bay,from
Bats Rock right up we have had very heavy erosion.
I was born and lived alongthat coast, and I know that
entire coast of Brandon's beach. I knew when canes
used to be plantedthere. There was not a house along
Brandon's beach. Those trees, where people usedto
go and undress and bathe, were manchineel trees
away from the sea. All of those trees have been
eroded, and that was prior to the construction of the
Deep Water Harbour. That is evidence to prove
that the erosion was taking place before the con-
struction of the Deep Water Harbour.

The question that this Resolution do now pass was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.



A Resolution for'the sum of $8,000 was called.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, the Adden-
dum to this Resolution sets out the purpose for which
these two amounts are necessary. The first note
reads that it is proposed to increase the annual sub-


vention to the Child Care Committee to enable it to
meet additional commitments, etc. I think I had better
give hon. members a little more detail and do it all
at one time. (Laughter) The position, Mr. Chairman,
is this: I am quoting from the Committee's Chair-
man's Report, and the Chairman of this Committee
is now Mrs, F. G. Reader, Dr. Reader's wife. The
Committee is comprised of Mrs. F. G. Reader as
Chairman, Mrs. B. Banfield, Honorary Secretary and
Mrs. S. A. Blanchette, Honorary Treasurer. The
Social Welfare Officer and the Supervisor Nurse/
Midwife of the Minister are ex officio members of the
Committee. Mr. Chairman, the position is this, and I
am quoting from the Chairman's letter or communi-
cation. She says: "Our increase in Estimates this
year is mainly due to an increase in salary for Nurse
Brathwaite. When we previously estimated her sa-
lary, we were unaware that Nurses in her category
in Public Health Services were being accessed as
Staff Nurses. Owing to nine years of very con-
scientious service we feel that she deserves this

It goes on to saythis: "Due to Nurse Eastmond's
retirement and the load of carrying her gratuity and
pension, we are asking for a grant to provide a full-
time Nurse with transportation in the Black Rock
area to cope with the increased amount of work
there, since the numberof babies onthe Register has
increased to well over 1,000 this year. If we do not
get this additional grant, we will be forced to cut
down on our services to the country distr';i by
transferring one of these Nurses to the Black Rock

For the benefit of hon. members who have not
been in here for any number of years, it might be
well for me just to give a brief resume of what the
Child Care Committee does and how it functions. The
Child Care Committee is voluntary organisation and
was formed with the main objective of providing
Child Care services supplemental to the Govern-
ment's Public -Health Services and specialising in
the prevention and treatment of malnutrition in chil-
dren. I am giving an idea of how the office of the
Committee is comprised. It derives its revenue from
a Government grant, a Southern area Local Govern-
ment grant of $1,400 per annum, and from fund-
raising efforts such as the sale of books and
Christmas cards. It is worthy of note that in 1965
independent collection totalled nearly $5,000 andex-
ceeded $4,400 in 1966.
11.00 a.m.

I am quoting all these things to prove that the
Child Care Committee tries on their own to raise
as much assistance as they can, and this and the
above mentioned grants are used for current ex-
penditure including nurses' salaries, medical sup-
plies, the upkeep of motor vehicles and the
maintenance of buildings and equipment. The pro-
ceeds of fund-raising efforts go into the Building
Fund and are spent on items of a capital nature, such
as major repairs to buildings and the purchase of
vans or heavy equipment.

The Committee is currently operating at 17 cen-
tres in eight parishes. There is a full-time staff
consisting of three qualified nurses paid on a scale
similar to that applicable to Government Public
Health Nurses. The nurses travel by the vans. There
are three vans at the moment.

Apart from the paid staff, much service is given
by voluntary workers, including four nurses and five
doctors. An extract from the report of 1966 illus-
trates the growth and value of the Committee'swork
and this is seen also in the report for 1967 which has
not yet been published; but the Committee has on its
register 2,257 children.

So Sir, this Child Care Committee is voluntary
organisation comprised of a lot of voluntary workers
under Mrs. Reader and about 10 other voluntary
workers who form the Committee. They need this
extra money to pay the pension of the full-time nurse
who has retired and for anothervan in order to carry
on their services on a better footing than before.

I think that I have given anideaof the work, and
I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to
know from the Minister if the eight parishes in which
the Committee is now operating. We understandthat
they are 2,257 children on the rollofthe Committee.
I am wondering if the Minister can tell us how one
gets to be enrolled, how the selection of children
for care is brought about and if he is in a position
to tell us if these 2,257 children are the children of
working class people,

One very important thing is this. Iwonderif the
Committee publicises its work widely enough. This
is a voluntary Committee and we must give full cre-
dit to these voluntary workers; but in such an organi-
sation with only 2,257 children on the roll we must
enquire if these are children of the poor and needy.
My reason for approaching the matterinthis respect
is that I wonder if the Minister can tell us if these
are children that could be found in the Day Nur-
series, or if these are children who do not enjoy
the facilities of the Day Nurseries and have got to
be seen at their respective homes orwhateveris the

In such a case, I feel that although this Com-
mittee is something to be praised and encouraged,
they have only touched the fringe of the problem be-
cause if these are poor and needy children who are
being cared I definitely feel that there must be hun-
dreds of children scattered throughout the island;
but the organisation is a voluntary organisation and
the Government should do all that they possibly can
to assist the organisation to expand its work and to
take care not of a mere 2,257, but assist the Com-
mittee in carrying out a whole scale registration of
the children that are in need of the care that the
Committee is offering.


Let the Government see what really canbe done
to put a voluntary organisation such as this on its
feet and assist it wherever possible; not just to say
how many years it has been going on and then say
that you are assisting them with money for one nurse
and a van.

Child care is a very important function in this
Community, and we do not want the Committee to be
looking after 2,257 children when it might be possible
to find other voluntary workers to come along and
assist this Committee so that itwouldbe able to take
in the island's entire population of children who are
in need of the kindof care that this one Committee is

There is nothing in this Resolution that any hon.
member would vote against; but for instance, the Hon.
Minister told us that in the 1967 report, the report
of the Chairman, it was shown that an increased
number of over 1,000 childrenwas made in this year.
If that is the case andItake it that this year means
1968 if in six months' time there has been an in-
crease of 1,000, let us askourselves howmany chil-
dren are really in need of child care who have not
been registered and consequently have not been re-
ceiving it.

It is really work to be encouraged and assisted,
and the Government should do something especially
in view of the fact that the organisation is being run
by a voluntary body of people. You should encourage
them all you can especially since they are dealing
with poor and needy children.

Mr. HOPPIN: Mr. Chairman, I speak on this
because I have a great interest in children and I hap-
pan to know about this Child Care Committee. The
last speaker seems to give the impression that
children are screened. From what I know, the nurses
and other people who work for this Committee are
not screening any children from getting this help.

There are many districts, especially in the rural
areas, to which the nurses go and they are welcomed.
Families look out to see if these nurses are working,
and the results of the information given to families
are very heartening. Some of the children have im-
proved tremendously.

There are some parishes, parts of St. James -
and I knew that they are trying to extend to the parish
of St. Joseph which are not taken care of right
now by the Child Care Committee; but they are ex-
pecting some voluntary help. At least the Minister
can correct me if I am wrong.
11.10 a.m.

Anyhow, one of the nurses happened to pass
through St. Joseph on one occasion, and she was
fortunate enough to visit a home where she found
that children were being brutalised by their pa-
rents. She had to take them to the Medical Officer
for St. Joseph, Dr. Johnson, for treatment. Because
the parents did not know the proper procedure for
training children and giving them medicine, and be-

cause the children did not accept the medicine due
to the method used by the parents, the parents de-
cided that blows were the only means of forcing these
children to take the medicine.

Sir, this Child Care Committee has been doing a
wonderful job, and I feel that more help is still
needed to cope with this ever-increasing population
of young children with whichwe are faced. There are
some doctors who have volunteered aaid have done
very good service. In the Black Rock area, as has
been outlined by the Minister, Dr. Graham has seen
and attended to over four hundred children free, and
he has also given them medicine at cost price. Dr.
Reader, whose wife is at present the Chairman of the
branch, has also helped and they are contributing
to this Child Care Committee.

The nurses find it somewhat difficult on the
edsting salary; but it it so happens that some of
them, having worked on this Committee for some
time, see good offers abroad, and, as is always ex-
pected, whenever a batter opportunity comes along
one will always try to make use of it. I am hoping
that the Government can assist the Child Care Com-
mittee by creating a post where a nurse will be
provided with an attractive salary in order that
the Committee may go from strength to strength.

I have had a discussion with a doctor about the
upkeep of children at the Hospital, and he said that
it cost the Government approximately $27.00 a day
to maintain a baby at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital.
I feel that if more help can be given to this Child
Care Committee which would prevent those mothers
from taking their children for better treatment
at the Hospital, then the Government would save
money by supporting this Child Care Committee and
encouraging other people, including doctors, to come
into this field and support the Child Care Committee.

As the Minister has already mentioned, funds
have been raised voluntarily by ladies holding
dances, tea parties, selling cakes and so on. This
Child Care Committee is a worthwhile Committee,
and I am asking the Government to give it the utmost
support in keeping it at the high standard at which
these voluntary workers have managed to put it.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, the Hon. Minister
said that they are operating at present in eight par-
ishes. I would like to know from him the parishes
in which they are operating. Whilst I am on my feet-
- I have always heard an old saying: Once a man
and twice a child". We are now dealing with the
Child Care Committee which is a very good thing,
but there are some adults who need the same care
or more than a child. There are some adults who
are left alone. (ASIDES), Mr. Chairman, I cannot go
on with this noise.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I can hardly hear the hon.
member as a result of the noises being made on his
immediate left. Let the hon. member continue.


Mr. SMITH: Sir, as I have just said, there are
some adults who need just as much care as children.
They are left alone; some are living in homes by
themselves; sometimes we find them dead without
anybody knowing how long they had died; sometimes
they drop to sleep leaving the old lamp burning, and
burn up themselves along with the bed and things of
that sort. Some of these people have no one to look
after them.

I feel that it is time that the Government should
think of preparing homes for those old people so that
they may be able to live as happily as they possibly
can until the day when they are called home. We
know that there are some homes for old people, but
those homes are for people who are able to pay for
the attention given to them. Not so long ago I called
up one of the Nursing Homes for Elderly People.
I wanted to put one of my constituents there because
she was suffering. She was a deserving case, but
when they quoted the price for keeping her there I
had to change my mind. We should think of Homes
in order to assist the old people, too, because they
are suffering. I know that the Public Health Nurses,
who travel through the various districts, are in a
position to give the Government a report on some of
those old people who are living in some of those
dilapidated places.

As I have said, these oldpeople are not qualified
to obtain a loan to have their houses repaired; they
have nobody to care for them; and they are living
worse than animals. I sincerely hope that the Hon.
Minister will take what I have just said into consid-
eration, and endeavour to start the ball rolling before
we get an opportunity to start it.
11.20 a.m.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, I wouldlike
to assure hon. members that the Child Care Commit-
tee receives the fullest co-operation and assistance
of Government, and that any reasonable demand
which they put up is usually met since I have been
in the Ministry over the years. Their grants have
been increased on two occasions quite recently.

In so far as the doctors who attend are con-
cerned, in St. Michael there is Dr. A. C. Graham;
in Christ Church Doctors E. L. Ward and Eyre
Kinch; in St. John there is Dr. B. Brathwaite; In
St. George there is Dr. F. G. Reader. There are
eight parishes as I have mentioned and the centres
in operation are St. George, Mondays at 2.00 p.m. -
Ellerton; St. Michael, Tuesday, 8.30 a.m. to 3.30 p.m.
- Black Rock; St. Philip, Wednesday, 10 a.m., al-
ternative weeks Thickets and St. Martins; St.
James, Wednesday, 4 p.m. Thorpes; St. John,
Thursday, 4 p.m. Holy Cross; Christ Church, Thurs-
day 11 a.m. 2 p.m. and 4 p.m. Sargeants Village,
Sayes Court, St. Lawrence, in order of mention; St.
Joseph, Friday, 10 a.m., once a month -Horse Hill;
9.30 a.m. once a month Cleavers Hill; 11 a.m. once
a month Bathsheba; St. Philip, 10 a.m. once a
month Blades Hill; St. Thomas, Friday, 9.30 a.m.,
twice a month Rock Hall; 11 a.m. twice a month -
Sharon; 2. p.m. alternative weeks Welchman Hall;

2 p.m. alternative weeks Bagatelle. Those are the
eight parishes, Mr. Chairman.

There is a misunderstanding about the work of
this Child Care Committee. It does not extendto the
Day Nurseries. The Day Nurseries serve their pur-
pose; they are a separate and distinct entity, and we
are going to establish many andmore Day Nurseries
Island-wide. We established about four additional
ones recently and we have another three to open very
shortly. The work of this Child Care Committee is
supplemental to the services which are performed
by the Public Health Department. As the Social
Welfare Officer and the Chief Medical Officer have
recently reported, "the Committee plays averyim-
portant role in public health work here. It has
collaborated fully with the Public Health Department
and the Department of Ophthalmics and Gynaecology
and Paediatrics of the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in the
integrated programme for the follow-up of malnu-
trition cases." In other words, when the children are
discharged from the Paediatrics Department of the
Hospital, this Committee sends out its staff to follow
up those cases of malnutrition and to assist where
the Paediatric Ward left off. The work that is done
considerably lessens that of the Public Health ser-
vices, and they support any request for increased
subvention. Not only the Government itself, but all
the Government officers are entirely in agreement
with giving every assistance and facility to this vo-
luntary band of workers who form themselves into the
Child Care Committee. Every time they comewitha
request, it is granted; they have never been turned
down, and we are here again to prove to you that
their estimates are expanding every year or every
other year.

The Committee's estimate of expenditure for
the current year amounts to $17,082, a net in-
crease of $5,329 over 1967-68. That is an increase
of approximately 45 per cent. There is also a non-
recurrent provision of $3,000 to meet the cost of a
new van. That speaks for itself. Last year, I think
we gave them an additional $2,000; so every assis-
tance or every subvention or facility which they ask
for, we are willing to grant. We ourselves fully
realise and recognize the importance of this work,
and it assists the Paediatric Department, the Public
Health Department and the Health Centres in per-
forming this valuable work, let alone the Day Nur-
series which are performing other work essential
to the requirements of this community. I can give
the assurance that any reasonable demand they put
up, the Cabinet is quite in agreement, andwe have no
difficulty whatever in getting anything done to assist
this voluntary band of workers.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, Ihavelistenedtothe
Minister and I understood from him that the eight
parishes which are presently served by this Com-
mittee do not include St. Peter, St. Lucy and St.
Andrew. Now this Resolution is for assistance to
expand and intensify the work of the Committee. I
wonder if the Minister can offer any explanation as
to why the work has not touched these three parishes
as yet, especially when he says that these are follow-


up cases particularly of malnutrition on passage
from the Paediatric Ward of the Hospital. Is it that
there has been no evidence of malnutrition in these
parishes among the child population, or is there
any other reason that can be advanced? My own
observations tell me that malnutrition is indeed no
respecter of persons amongst the child population
of the working class people of this community, and
surely since this Committee has been functioning,
I am willing to say that there must have been cases
on discharge from the Hospital of children living in
St. Peter, St. Lucy and St. Andrew. All I want to know
is if the Minister can tell us whether in the expan-
sion of the work that is mentioned here, these three
parishes will be included immediately or in the very
near future. We would like the Minister to enquire
from the Committee, if he does not know, if there
are cases in these three parishes that the Com-
mittee would like to serve, find out from the Com-
mittee what it would cost to expand its services to
these three parishes, and do so immediately.
11.30 a.m.

I think I can give the Minister the assurance
from this side of the House that he will be readily
supported in any such measure if the Committee can
make out a case that there are cases in these three
parishes which are not being attended to, and let us
know that the Committee is doing its work Island
wide; but, on the other hand, if it is so that there is
no evidence of children in these three parishes suf-
fering from malnutrition, I am very, very happy
indeed. However, I would like the Minister to tell us
if he knows, why they have not gone into these three
parishes. Let him find out what can be done to have
the Committee extend its work to include these three
parishes and let us know that the Committee is func-
tioning Island wide.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, I can only
give the hon. member the assurance that I will in-
vestigate the matter and see if this voluntary or-
ganisation can extend its efforts to these three
parishes of which mention has been made. I will
make him aware of my findings and investigations
at some subsequent date. There are only eight pa-
rishes which are covered at present, but the parishes
of St. Peter, St. Andrew and St. Lucy have not been
included. I will do whatever I can to see that assis-
tance is given to these children. I take it that children
suffer from malnutrition all over the Island and not
only in the parishes which I have mentioned. I have
not got to go and ask if there are any such children
in St. Peter, St. Andrew or St. Lucy and appear to be
ridiculous; I will not do that, but I will try to use
what little influence I may have to induce them to ex-
tend their services in these other parishes for the
benefit of the little children in these areas.

The question that this Resolution do now pass was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.


Resolution for the sum of $20,540 was called.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, this sum is
required to supplement the Capital Estimates under
Head 104 Education and Item 5A (New) Alex-
andra School. Supplementary provision of this amount
is required for the completion of the work on the
extension to the school. There is, I believe, a little
history attached to this. I think hon. members will
remember that in the Capital Estimates 1967-68,
under Item 6, of the same Head 104, an amount of
$38,000 was provided for the completion of the ex-
tension to that school. At the end of that financial
year, the sum of $19,264.04 had been spent, leav-
ing an unexpended balance of $18,735 roughly. Inthe
1968-69 Estimates, by some oversight, therewas no
revote covering this amount. The unexpended bal-
ance, therefore, is mainly what is being asked for
now plus, of course, a detailed Estimate set out by
the Ministry of Communications and Works in-
cluding the cost of material and certain contractual
commitments for the past financial year not yet paid.
These together make up the sum of $20,540.

It appears that the request forthe release of the
sum to be re-voted was merely an attempt to ensure
that the work which had been interrupted should con-
tinue without interruption. However, the Ministry
of Communications and Works had another look at the
matter and recently submitted this detailed estimate
of the cost of materials as well as the cost of con-
tract work for waterproofing, electricity, goods
supplied and installation and together these totalled
the sum of $20,540. It is this sumwhich is now being
sought to be appropriated. I do not know if there is
anything more on the financial side which I can give
to hon. members, but if there are any questions I
shall try my best to answer them. I beg to move
that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, there is only one
question which I would like to ask the Minister,
and it is this: What are the reasons for the inter-
ruption, what caused the work not to be carried on?
I notice that this is are-vote; so it would not be any
lack of funds which caused the interruption.
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, it would ap-
pear that when the extension was started or after
it had been started and had gone a considerable dis-
tance there was I suppose y u will have to call it
a difference of opinion betWeen the Ministry of
Education and the Ministry of Communications and
Works as to what was actually ordered in the sense
of what plans had been approved for the particular
extension. The Ministry of Communications and
Works, as far as I remember, claimed that the
Ministry of Education had altered and varied the ap-
proved plans and, consequently, this spiralled the
cost and exhausted the vote. As I said, this has a
long story behind it, an inter-Departmental dispute,
and this, more than anything else, I believe,was re-
sponsible for the hold up.
11.40 a.m.

However, both Ministries, from what I can see,
have now resolved their differences. Plans forthe ex-


tension are now approved to the satisfaction of both
Ministries, and this detailed estimate has now been
submitted and the Cabinet has accepted it.

The estimate includes, as I have said, not only
the cost of the material needed for the completion,
but it includes of course all ancillary serviceswhich
are part of the extension.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Min-
ister can tell us if for this project a capital amount
of $24,487 was put in the 1965-66 Estimates, and your
capital expenditure for 1966-67 is really $19,7237
Has he got those figures?

Hon.J. C. TUDOR: No, I said that in the Capital
Estimates the sum of $38,000was providedofwhich
$19,264.04 was expended leaving an unexpended bal-
ance of $18,735.96, but for some reason no re-vote
was requested covering this amount in the Current

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, we have reached a
very good point in this particular matter. My figures
that I have here show that there is an amount of
$5,000 unaccounted for inthis project, andthatis why
I particularly asked if $24,487 have been put in the
Capital Estimates of 1965-66, $19,723 in 1966-67 and
in your Estimates of 1966-67, $38,000. I am asking
him to account for $5,000 if he possibly can.

I am not holding out any threat, butI am willing
to call names andto invite this Committee to see that
it can refect the passing of this Head on the basis of
the information that I have. I am just asking the Min-
ister to say what he knows about the situation.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, do I under-
stand that the hon. member is asking a question in
respect of the financial year that I have mentioned?
I would like him to repeat the question.

Mr. HINDS: What I am saying is this, that actual
expenditure on this project in 1965-66 amounted to
$24,487 and actual expenditure on the Alexandra
school in 1966-67 was $19,723 and that in the Esti-
mates for 1966-67 to which the Minister referred
the amount voted was $38,000. All I am telling the
Minister is that using his figures and making my own
deductions bring us to the pointwhere exactly $5,000
that is why I armed myself with this type of in-
formation before I came into the House a sum of
$5,000 is unaccounted for; and some of the misunder-
standing that the Minister attempted to refer to
earlier bears on this amount.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: If the hon. member is going
back to the financial year 1965-66, right. The record
shows that in that financial year the amount provided
in the Estimates was $41,000 of which in respect of
that financial year $24,000 was spent. In 1966-67 the
amount providedwas $20,300 of which $17,000 roughly
represented a re-vote. At that point I think in the
1967-68 Estimates the amount provided was $38,000
of which I am sorry......

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order.
I would like to remind the Minister that the $38,000
fall under 1966-67.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I think the hon. member is
making a mistake. I think that if he checks he will
see that it is 1967-68.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I am willing to swear
on oath that the $38,000 falls under the 1966-67
Estimates, and I want to repeat that in the same
1966-67 the amount spent was $19,723.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: If the hon. member would
look at the Revised Estimates for 1968-69 under
the proper Head the Capital Head for Education -
he will see in the column Revised Estimates, ex-
penditure in 1967-68 for Alexandra School, $38,000.
It is a matter of checking.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, under Head 104, Edu-
cation, I would like the Ministerto tellme if all these
other figures are inaccurate. Part II Capital, Head
104, Education, Item 1, New Primary Schools,
$106,200; Item 2, Extension to Primary Schools,
$177,250; Item 3, Replacement to Primary Schools
$161,478; Item 4, New Comprehensive Secondary
Schools, $38,517; Item 5, Extension to Secondary
Comprehensive Schools, $120,000; and Item 6,
Alexandra School, not one cent.

I referred to projects carried over from 1967-68;
so you will understand thatwhat I referredto here is
actually for 1965-66 and 1966-67. All that the Min-
ister says bears me out that there is an amount of
$5,000 unaccounted for, and that there was this *is-
ruption or whatever it is which was in part over this
sum of money.
11.50 a.m.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: This is simple matter. The
hon. member has been trying to make out that some-
thing is more wrong than it actually is. I have ex-
plained that the Government itself has not been happy
over this whole business of the Alexandra School.
So unhappy it was, that for aperiodof the whole of a
financial year it allowed the fullest possible inves-
tigation to take place into the whole working of this
estimate and the way in which it had been managed,
as well as the whole project. Nothing happened dur-
ing that period until the financial people, the Ministry
of Education and the Ministry of Communications
and Works, were all satisfied that the extensions
could continue on the basis on which they are now

The sum of money of which he speaks was, as
he will see, put quite clearly in the Capital Esti-
mates of the year 1966-67. In respect of that finan-
cial year, Ihave already explained to the hon. member
that they spent $19,264, leaving an unexpended bal-
ance. The re-vote was not included in the 1968 -
69 Estimates because of the investigation which had
to be entered into and carried on to the satisfaction
of everybody concerned that the money askedforwas
going to be properly spent.


The Ministry of Communications and Works has
now sent in an estimate which satisfies the Ministry
of Education, the Ministry of Finance and everybody
concerned. This estimate is based on a very minute
breakdown of cost both of materials as well as of
out-standing contractual commitments whichhadnot
been met because there was no money in the pre-
vious financial year. There is a full breakdown of
this, and it is these two sums which together total
$20,540 that we are now asking for.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, it must be admitted
that the conditions existing at Alexandra School today
have been prior to the passing of the 1965-66 Esti-
mates, because an amount of $24,487was spent then.
Now I am hoping that with the passing of this Reso-
lution work will be expedited, and I would ask the
Minister to take into consideration the fact that there
has been the case of heavy rains and there has been
a considerable amount of flooding of the school
premises. Even in the yard at some times one can-
not pass without being subjected to having to wade
through a considerable amount of water. We hope
that, with the passing of this Resolution, all of these
unhappy conditions will be overcome.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.


A Resolution for the sum of $450,000 was called.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, the Reso-
lution under Part II, Head 106, should be corrected
to read "(4) External Affairs" instead of "The Of-
fice of the Prime Minister". That, Ibelieve, is Head
108. That is the first amendment I wish to make to
the Schedule. This amount, Mr. Chairman, is capital
expenditure on the acquisition of a Chancellery in
Washington and a residence for the Ambassador in
New York.

It has been decided that, because of the volume
of work involved at the United Nations and the proxi-
mity to the majority of the Overseas Embassies
associated with the United Nations, the Ambassador
should reside in New York and not in Washington.
The Chancellery, therefore, in Washington will be
the residence for the Ambassador to the Organisa-
tion of American States, and this building will also
be used as a temporary residence for the Ambassa-
dor to the United States at such times as it should be
required that he should visit the Capital of that
country to transact business for and on behalf of the
Government of Barbados.

Negotiations have been proceeding for a long
time, and we have estimated that, because of the ap-
preciation in value of real property and the high cost
of hotel or rental accommodation bothinWashington
and New York, it would be more economic for the
Government to purchase properties outright, which
would be free of normal property taxes and so on,
than to be tenants of buildings in which landlords
themselves would be writing in a certain compo-

nent of taxation and other charges from which we
would normally be exempted.

I have in my possession two pictures of the
residence in Pelham, New York. This is a district
where many other Embassies are located, and Iwill
be pleased to circulate these pictures to hon. mem-
bers immediately as well as the report from the
valuers, if members will undertake to restore them
to proper custody when they have had an opportunity
to look at them. This report is not for publication,
but for information to hon. members on the property
at Pelham, New York.
12 noon.

In respect of the property in Washington, they
have been able to negotiate a mortgage. The cost of
redecoration, of course, is shown on page 2 of the
Addendum. It is quite a full Addendum and these are
outside figures, as some kind of saving may enure.
We have insisted with the decorators and consultants
that as much furniture manufactured in Barbados and
other fittings should decorate the two properties as
is humanly possible. Even if the cost of shipping the
furniture and the cost of the furniture itself may be
slightly higher, we have allowed them a margin, let
us say, of 8 per cent or 10 per cent higher than if it
were bought in New York. We do not think that even
with the shipping charges and the purchase price and
insurance included, the cost of furniture manufac-
tured in Barbados will be in anywayhigher. We have
good reason for saying this, because manufacturers
in New York particularly have very high mark-ups
on goods like draperies which are mostly manu-
factured in the United Kingdom, and which we can
import direct. The mark-up for architects, interior
decorators and manufacturers is phenomenal, to say
the least.

As a matter of fact, in the construction of the
Hilton Hotel, we were able to save some 40 per cent
on the quoted prices, because the mark-up was in
that vicinity at one stage alone, and of course there
were several stages in the supply of furniture from
the United States. This of course gives a very in-
teresting story, because the furniture manufactured
in Barbados was rejected two or three times until
we appealed to an independent body of architects
in the United States to come down and appraise the
work which was being done in Barbados, and they
stated that the furniture was up to standard and
complied with all the requirements of the Institutes
in the United States, and the only fault they could find
with the furniture was the fau-ltwhich waste fault
of the people who were finding fault with the furni-
ture that is, the design; and without knowing this,
the architect who came down approved the Barbados-
manufactured furniture at the Hilton, except the
wicker chairs which, I believe, came from Madeira,
Portugal or somewhere like that. They in their re-
port said that the furniture met with all the required
standards, but the only thing wrong with them was
the design, and it was the designers who were com-
plaining about the furniture. So it shows you that
you have to watch these people very carefully. Any-
how, we did get Barbados-manufactured furniture in


the Hilton Hotel, although it had been rejected three
or four times.

Here now we are making the choice, andwe are
insisting that as much locally manufactured material
as possible should go into these two Embassies, so
that we will be able to demonstrate to the people who
visit the Embassies that we too can make things in
B.rbiad-). Tais is a stipulation.

The Addendum, as I said before, is a very full
one. The pictures of the property in Pelham are be -
ing circulated. The appraisal was some $2,000 or
$3,000 higher than the price which we are actually
paying for the property in Pelhamwhichwe will have
to pay for outright, and the reasonwhywe have asked
the House to consider this at such an early stage
is that there is a closing date which, I believe, is the
22nd of this month, by which we must close if we
are not going to lose this property. I should like to
say that several properties were inspected, and the
advice of the Trinidad Mission and the Guyana Mis-
sion was sought and easily obtained. I should also like
to record that the legal representatives who are
retained by the West Indian Sugar Association in
Washington provided their services free of charge
and gave us advice on the mortgages and matters
of that kind. I just wantedto place that on record be-
cause we did not have to expend any legal fees in
that respect, and they gave us advice at all stages
on the suitability of both premises.

Mr. Chairman, I do not think there is much more
that I can add at this stage, except to move that this
Resolution do now pass.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

Mr. HOPPIN: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask
the Hon. Prime Minister to explain something here
for me. Am I to understand that these houses will be
paid for in cash, because I read something here about
the rate of interest?

Hon. E. W. BARROW: I think I explainedalready
that one is to be purchased for cash and the other has
a mortgage. The Pelham house is cash; the Washing-
ton house has a mortgage. The rate of interest is
$5 1/2%. I wish we could get some rates like that in

Mr. MOTTLEY: We are in this already and we
have to buy. The member who spoke anticipated me
when he mentioned the rate of interest, because I
noticed that myself. The Deed of Trust is really, to
a non-legal man, the American term for a mortgage.
I do not know if this is a first or second mortgage,
but would it not be better if we could pay off and
finish instead of paying 5 1/2% for fifteen years?
Since you must have this, why pay 5 1/2 per cent
for fifteen years? Since you must have this, why
pay 5 1/2% for fifteen years when you can pay off at
one time and be finished with it? I did not hear the
hon. member when he fs it spoke and I apologise.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: I am sorry I did not give
any explanation on that. It is a question of simple
arithmetic, because it is a question of the alterna-
tive use of money. If we could have got a mortgage
on the Pelham property, I would have done this too.
Our interest rates here in Barbados are to the order
of 8 per cent; so if we have to borrow money to pay
7 3/4 per cent or 8 per cent for capital, we have to
borrow. We are not taking this out of Current Revenue
we are taking it out of Capital which normally we
have to borrow. I may indicate that we are now
thinking seriously, as I may have hinted before, of
pushing up our Treasury Bill rate to somethingover
6 per cent, but certainly less than 7 per cent. In the
United Kingdom today it is something like 7.125%
or 7.126% or as high as 7 1/2% for Treasury Bills
on short term money. What we are really doing
her, is borrowing some of the money at 5 1/2% in-
stead of 8%.

Mr. MOTTLEY: But this 5 1/2% applies to Ame-
r-can money.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Yes, but it does not make
any difference whether it was in Polish Zloty or
Greek drachmp or anything else. 5 1/2% is 5 1/2%;
and if you have property valued at something, and
you are paying 5 1/2% on that, you are paying on
American property too; so the value of the property
is commensurately higher. When you pay 5 1/2%
here, you are not paying 10%.

Mr. MOTTLEY: But when you made the compa-
rison of 8 per cent in Barbados and 5 1/2% in Ameri-

Hon. E. W. BARROW: I understand the hon.
member. I made the comparison between 8% here
and 5 1/2% there, but 5 1/2% is 5 1/2%. 5 1/2% in
America is not 11% in Barbados or vice versa.

Mr. MOTTLEY: If you are paying 5 1/2%, how
much do you have to look for?

Hon. E. W. BARROW: If we are paying 5 1/2%
on $10,000, we would be paying $550. That is all. We
do not pay any more because it is in America.

Mr. MOTTLEY: But if you paid $550 in American
money, how much would you have to look for in B.W.I.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Let me put it this way. If
you are paying 5 1/2% on $10,000 U.S., it is $20,000
B.W.I. and we are still only paying 5 1/2% on that
$20,000. We are not paying 11% on $10,000.
12.10 p.m.

Mr. MOTTLEY: If the hon. member would give
way for a minute, I do not agree with him there for
this reason; we are buying this place in America.
As I know the practice in America, if there is a
mortgage at all and the mortgage is for fifteen
years, unless you are prepared to pay them out for
the fifteen years, they are not prepared to take the
money. As far as America is concerned, 5 1/2% is


an investment. I am asking now whether it would not
be better for us, instead of allowing that period to
run, if negotiations should not be made at this stage
to pay it off at one time. Sometimes it can be done;
it depends upon what Bank it is negotiated with, or
who holds the mortgage or the Deed of Trust or what-
every they say. That is the most important point I
want to raise. The sum of 5 1/2% per annum over a
period of fifteen years with interest being payable
at the rate of $351.50 U.S. permonth is really $770 -
odd per month in our currency. If you are paying 8
per cent you would have to be paying nearly 11% ac-
tually to do that.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: The amount of money being
left in the hon. member, being a Real Estate mag-
nate would understand leaving in something -we are
paying 5 1/2% of $86,000. That is what we have to
find. It is $43,000 U.S. left in or, roughly speaking,
at an exchange rate of $2,00, $86,000 Eastern Carib-
bean currency. What we are paying is 5 1/2% on
$86,000 Eastern Caribbean. We are not paying 8%
on it; if were paying 8% on it, whether it was U.S.
or Eastern Caribbean, we would be paying more.
That is why, no matter what the conversion factor
is, interest rates throughout the world tend to sta-
bilize around a certain point. The reason why it is
5 1/2% is not because the mortgage rate in the United
States today is 5 1/2%, but because there is an un-
expired term from the existing property owner. In
other words, if we want to buy a property andwent
to the Bank and said: "I want a mortgage on this
property"; what they would say is "I am very
sorry; the mortgage rate now is something like
7 1/2%." I have heard quotations in otherStates like
Illinois as high as 9 or 91/2% but now the mortgage
rate -the F.H.A. is approving loans at 6 3/4 % or
6 7/8%; therefore the market rate -the F.H.A. being
the Federal Housing Authority, as the hon. member
would know, is the organisation that the Mayor of
Washington used to head. The point is this; the
market rate for mortgages now in America is not
now 5 1/2%; we are only getting 5 1/2% because we
are taking the unexpired term of 15 years. If we
were to wait until next year, we would only have
fourteen years; so they are passing overto us some-
thing which the mortgagee has been bound by, say,
10 or 12 years ago. He agreed to lend us this money
at 5 1/2%; but if we had gone to the Bank or to a
Mortgage Finance Company and asked them for
something, we would probably be paying 8%. This is
why we think it is advisable to take over the mort-
gage. (ASIDES) It is $4,730 at 5 1/2%, and if we had
to pay 8 % it would be $6,880.

The question that this Resolution do now pass was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.


A Resolution for the sum of $8,100 was called.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: The next Resolution, Mr.
Chairman, is a Resolution forth sum of $8,100. The

wage rates and so onare setout. We already have a
chauffeur and Messenger who attends both to the of-
fice and the Ambassador's Personal needs, and the
sum of $4,025 U.S. or approximately $8,100, Eas-
tern Caribbean Currency which is what we are
asking for,-will be required to see us through to the
end of the financial year. I do not think that this is
an exorbitant sum and I therefore beg to move that
this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I hope we are
assured that the Prime Minister will be giving in-
structions to follow the habits and customs of other
diplomats in hiring nationals who are in the United
States as far as possible.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Chairman,inanswer
to the hol1.. member, what we try to do is to hire
Barbadians; but what we try to avoid is transporting
Barbadians from Barbados to the U.S. and having to
pay passages, give them house allowances and so on.

(Mr. MOTTLEY: We are not asking that.) We are
looking around now for an ex-policeman type of per-
son with a wife who would be congenial to this kind
of work because we have to look after our security
as well. Hon. members will be pleased to hear that
the High Commissioner for Canadahas recentlyem-
ployed a very good friend of some of the hon. mem-
bers here, who was a former taxi driver from Two
Mile Hill by the name of Mr. Thompson. He is in
charge of the house and everything in Ottawa. I un-
derstand that he is doing a very good job, and we
have an ex-policeman called Mr. Harper in New York.
Even from a strictly security point ofviewwe do not
approve of hiring persons from outside unless we
have to do this, because even the United States Gov-
ernment is capable of planting people in your place.
I say that without any hesitation whatever. This is
part of the acknowledged practices that you try to get
as much information as you possibly can, andthere-
fore you have to be careful.

I am very glad to say that our High Commis-
sioner has been very good in this respect, and we
managed to find suitable people, Mr. Harper in New
York and Mr. Thompson in Ottawa, who are really
performing a very good job. Of course, in London
there is no problem, because there are so many
Barbadians who are looking for jobs that we have
not had to go outside except for one Receptionist who
was there and we inherited her. She went to school
in Barbados and has been married to a Barbadian.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Don't you think the salary of-
ferred to the caretaker should be explained? That
seems to be very low. Is that going to be a whole-
time job or what? Is he going to have rooms on the
premises and so on?

Hon. E. W. BARROW: They will have accommo-
dation, and when I say "accommodation", I mean
that they will have quarters because it is a very
large house. I do not know if the hon. member has
seen the picture, but it is averylarge house. Living


quarters are to be provided there because we would
not like, if there is function on and the Ambassador
goes out, there will be nobody on the premises. The
husband-and-wife team is the ideal kindof situation.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask
the Prime Minister if this $75 per week U.S. is in
keeping with what the Americans would pay a house-
keeper for doing such duties. We know that house-
keepers in the United States of America are paid
very high wages per week. I wish to know if this is
going to be in keeping with the wages paid by the
American families.
12.20 p.m.

Hon. E. W. BARROW rose.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: The rule that when a member
is speaking other members should be silent has not
yet been suspended.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: In answer to the hon. se-
nior member for St. Thomas if the hon. member
wants me to reply he cannot accuse me of any
discourtesy. Any discourtesy will have to come
from his side. As far as I can understand, careful
enquiry was made from the authorities and other
sources and this is the kind of wage rate that we will
be expected to pay. As amatterof fact, I do not think
we could have got anyone for much less.

Probably you could get them for this because it
is a Barbadian who likes the idea of free living and
accommodation. I know that we have to pay the chauf-
feur probably a little more than this, and pay over-
time as well. If he works overtime, I think he gets.
double time after 6 o'clock in the evening.

The question that the Resolution do now pass was put and
resolved in the affirmative without division.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman,Ibegto move
that Your Honour do now report the passing of five
Resolutions in Committee of Supply.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolvedin the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair and re-
ported accordingly.

On separate motions of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, secondedby
Hon. C. E. .TALMA, the Resolutions were read a first and se-
cond time and agreed to.

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day is
order No. 4.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to move that Order No.
7 be taken as the next Order of the Day. It stands in
the name of the Hon. and Learned Prime Minister.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.


Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, Sir, in my
Budgetary Proposals made in June, 1967, Iproposed
an increase on income allowance for wives from
$420 to $540, the removal of the limit on medical
expenses which could be made in respect of only two
children and allowing it to be made in respect of all
dependent children, and extension of the medical
expenses claims to cover such expenses incurred
overseas. Before, we did not allow expenses in-
curred overseas.

The third proposal which affects Income Tax
is the grant of an allowance in respect of expen-
diture incurred on scientific research, and those
are the proposals which are really contained in this
amending Bill.

Now, Sir, this Bill should have been available
for the income year 1967, but at that time, shortly
after the introduction of my budget, we had a Cana-
dian Technical Assistance adviser, Mr. Douglas
Lambert, who has only recently returned to Canada,
and as a result of his labours and consultations it was
deemed advisable that the proposals take effect from
the income year 1968 and not 1967.

That is the reason why this was not introduced
before, because we were taking a close look, and
there were certain complications about introducing
it so late in the year. Members will appreciate that
PAYE starts contemporaneously, and that half of
th; year had already passed.

So in this amending Bill, Mr. Speaker, provision
for allowance in respect of capital expenditure in-
curred in providing machinery or plant for scientific
purposes is made in Section 2, and this will be
written off over a period of five years.

Also, Mr. Speaker, in the same spirit, buildings
used for scientific research in the definition "indus-
trial building or structure" will qualify for the in-
dustrial buildings allowance.

The other three amendments are more personal
and more comprehensible to the ordinary citizenbe-
cause they affect and touch the taxpayer in a much
more satisfactory manner congenial to the taxpayer
in that the limit on the number of children for whom
medical expenses can be claimed has been removed
so that any number of children onwhom medical ex-
penses have been lavishedwill have the benefit of this
removal of the limit. Also the questionofclaims for
expenses overseas which hitherto had not been al-
lowed, will as from the year of assessment 1967 the
income year 1968 be allowed so that any expenses
incurred during this year in which the income was
actually earned, will be allowed.
12.30 p.m.


The last amendment, of course, which is the
simplest one of all, and which the married women
will appreciate, is the increase in the deduction or
allowance which you can set off in respect of a mar-
ried woman's earned income from $420 to $540. Hon.
members have been pressing for some years now for
the separation of the taxable incomes of husbands and
wives. That is something which we are looking into
very carefully, and any amendment in this respect
which will be made will be made in the new legisla-
tion which is coming in. I am not promising anything
but I am looking into it very closely. There are pros
and cons in that it can also be argued that married
women are keeping single women out of jobs. That
is one angle that you have to look at too. Of course,
married women are usually more competent at these
jobs and more employable, and they frequently getf
married because they are more competent. You can
not penalise single women; they are penalised badly
enough as it is already by being single, and we cannot
let the married women get all of the sweets.

I am not saying, Mr. Speaker, thatwe have made
a decision on this, but we are looking into it very
closely. If we do not entirely separate the assess-
ment on husbands and wives, at least, I can promise
that we will be making some substantial change along
the lines of the last Clause here of increasing the
married women's allowance. I now beg to move that
this Bill be read a second time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to seco':,t that.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I think I should
say that the information given to us by the Prime
Minister as to the impending separation of the in-
come of husbands and wives will be well received
by the majority of husbands and wives in this coun-
try. It certainly puts a tremendous hardship, es-
pecially upon those younger people who have children
and have to contend with the high cost of living.
Wives go out to work; children have to be educated,
and the meagre sum which is given for educating
children, especially if they have to go to a University
or even to Harrison College, is not very much. One
wonders what is going to happen in this country, if
things go on at this rate! When I was young it was
bad enough; but today, with the cost of living as
high as it is, things are very much worse.

I think it remains for us to say that we hope the
promise made by the Prime Minister, although vague,
will be carried out in the not too distant future and
that we will have the separation of earned income
between husbands and wives, and that there will be
something substantial that will relieve husbands from
having to put their wives in doubt. I know of many
young men in this country whose wives are working,
but when they put the two salaries together and com-
pare the amount with what they have to pay in income
tax, they come to the conclusion thattheirwives are
really working for nothing, or for about $40 to $50
a month. The salary of a wife seems to be a lot
when put with her husband's salary, butwhen income
tax is taken out it is a different matter. I think we
should say on this side of the House how much we ap-

preciate the sentiments expressed by the Prime Min-
ister that there will, in the not too distant future, be
some substantial relief, if not in separating the
earned income, in some other manner.

The question that the Bill be read a second time wasput
and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and the
House go into Committee on this Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the House
went into Committee on the Bill, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

Clauses 1 to 6 inclusive were called and passed.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, Ibeg to move
that Your Honour do now report the passing of one
Bill in Committee.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mrl.SPEAKER resumed the Chair and reported

On separate motions of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by
Hon.. C. E. TALMA, the Bill was read a third time and passed.

BILL, 1968

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Item No. 4 be taken as the next Order of the Day.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, before you put the
question, I would like to have some information. I
was not in here earlier this morning, and I would
like to know when this House will be given an op-
portunity to get something to eat.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I give the hon. member the
assurance that it will be in about fifteen to twenty
12.40 p.m.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Do I understand the hon.
member wants to work a low gear?

The question that Order No. 4 be the next Order of the
Day was put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

ACT, 1968
Mr. SPEAKER: Order No. 4 stands in the name
of the Hon. and Learned Prime Minister, andit is to
move the second reading of a Bill to amend the Motor
Vehicles Tax Act, 1960.


Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, this Bill
arises out of my Budget proposals. Atthe moment it
is intended that motor omnibuses should be exempt
from the payment of the Motor Vehicles tax, but
'motor omnibus' has been defined variously as a
vehicle having seating accommodation for more than
six passengers. From experience we know that the
minimum seating of a motor omnibus is in the re-
gion of twenty-four passengers, and there is an
intermediate range of vehicle used chiefly by hotels
and people like that andby supermarkets I am sure
you can get expert advice on that from not very far at
hand, Sir and other places who take advantage of
this definition of motor omnibus, so that no Motor
Vehicle tax is paid on these vehicles. The idea of
the exemption for motor omnibuses was because of
the high cost let us say, $23,000 or $25,000 and a
motor omnibus is part of the public transport system.
We did not feel when this tax was introduced in
fact I should not say that we did not feel because it
was introduced in 1960; but it was not felt, and I was
a member of the House at that time, that the people
who had to run public service transport should be
subject to this tax, and I am sure it was -lot in-
tended that the hotels along the West Coast and super-
markets should be exempt.

Now one of the anomalies of this legislation is
this: motor vehicles with seating accommodation for
more than six passengers come in and do not pay
the tax, but when they go to the Department of High-
ways and Transport to be licensed, they are then
licensed as a bus. They come in duty free when I
say "duty free", I mean tax free; it is not entirely
duty free because it is byway of being a kind of con-
sumption tax and not an import duty. So between the
Bridgetown Harbour and the Pine, they lose their
identity as buses, and by some queer quirk of fate
they are then licensed up there as taxis to carry
not more than six passengers, although the Comp-
troller of Customs has looked at them at the Port,
counted the seats and decided they could carry twelve
passengers and therefore were buses. We think that
the Licensing Authorities are wrong because they.
should use the same yard-stick up there that the
Comptroller uses. They cannot have it both ways.
Either they pay the tax as not being buses and go up
there and get the licence as not being buses, or al-
ternately they should pay the tax as a bus.

At the moment these vehicles are coming into
the Port fitted out with seating accommodation for,
probably, from eleven to fourteen passengers; the
seats and everything are there. The Comptroller of
Customs or his officers look at them and say they
are not subject to this Motor Vehciles tax because
they have seating accommodation for more than six
passengers; so they come under the definition of a
bus, and they do not pay the tax there. They go up
to the Pine to license the vehicle and they cannot
be licensed as a bus because theydonot have a con-
cession; so they have to be licensed as a taxi, and
they put on the sign "Licensed to carry not more
than six passengers". It is nonsensical. (A VOICE:
They could take out the seats.) You mean they could
take out the seats on the ups and put them back in on

the downs! In other words, what we are trying to
correct here is an anomaly. There is conflict in the
way in which the Comptroller of Customs is inter-
preting the law and the way in which the Licensing
Authorities are interpreting the law. What we are
saying, therefore, is that for fifteen seats theymust
pay the tax, and then take their chance up there on
getting a licence for a vehicle that can carry not
more than fifteen passengers.

I think perhaps it would be better if I pointed out
the difficulty a little more vividly by referring to the
legislation. I should like hon. members to refer to
Section 2 of the Motor Vehicles Tax Act, 1960, where
they will see that "motor vehicle" has the meaning
assigned to it by subsection (1) of section 2 of the
Motor Vehicles and Road Traffic Act of 1937. In Sec-
tion 2 of the 1937 Act, "motor vehicle" means any
mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted
for use on roads, but does not include vehicles con-
structed exclusively for use on rails or other spe-
cially prepared tracks. Let us now look at
"motor-cab" midway up the page. "Motor-cab" in-
cludes any motor vehicle kept or used for hire or
reward for the conveyance of not more than six
passengers whether at separate fares or otherwise.
That is how these vans are being licensed now as
motor cabs, but they are not, according to the Motor
Vehicle and Road Traffic Act, supposed to carry
more than six passengers. If they carry more than
six passengers, they are buses. They come in as
buses, but they get licences as cabs. In the Sche-
dule to the 1960 Act, if you look at "goods vehicle",
the pick-ups come under that heading and they are
all right because a "goods vehicle" means a motor
vehicle which is so constructed as to show that its
primary purpose is the carriage orhaulage of goods,
merchandise or other loads.
12.50 p.m.

I have always contended that there is nothing
wrong in a goods vehicle carrying passengers, not
that it is carrying goods this is a moot point but
it is constructed primarily to carry goods; so that
if you have one of these pick-\ip vans with an open
tray behind, it has been primarily constructed to
carry goods, but, according to this Act, there is
nothing to prevent it from carrying passengers. It
may be that I am advising people to pirate on the
Transport Board routes, but that is my construction.
If you construct it not to carry goods but to carry
passengers, that is where we are getting the trouble
now, not from the old-time pick-ups, but from the
new ones which are constructed like buses but are
carrying more than six passengers. It is your con-
struction rather than what you are doing. It may be
that this is another anomaly in the law. If you are
constructed to carry passengers, you are only
exempted from the tax if you are constructed to
carry less than six passengers. 'Six passengers or
less' is a motor cab, but they are coming in here
constructed to carry 12 or 15 passengers; they are
not paying taxes as buses, but they are going up there
and getting licences to carry 6 passengerswhenthey
have seating accommodation for 15.


That is the whole situation in a nutshell. The
question as to how these things are going to be used
is, as far as I am concerned, immaterial. It is a
question for the licensing authorities. What we are
concerned about is a tax position. Either you are a
bus or you are not a bus. If you come with all of this
seating accommodation and you are not really inthe
$25,000 odd bracket and you do ait have a concession
of your own to run as a bus and you belong to a hotel,
we feel that, in the same way that a taxi driver has
got to pay this tax, you should pay it too. That is all
it means. If taxi drivers have to pay this motor ve-
hicle tax, then private car owners have to pay it.
Bus Concessionaires do not have to pay the tax be-
cause they are cunning public service vehicles legi-
timately. We feel that if youdo not run a large Public
service vehicle on a concession and you want to be
licensed as a taxi, therefore you should pay what the
taxi drivers pay too. I am not going into the im-
plications; there are no implications, as far as I am
concerned, other than the collection of money. What
is going to happen with the licensing of these things
and pirating and so on, I am not going into that be-
cause it is irrelevant to the consideration of collect
ting some more revenue from people who may be
competing either with taxis or buses and are getting
away with it now. I do notthinkI have any other ref-
erences to give hon. members, but I think that they
can understand the motivation behind the putting-on
of the tax. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a
second time.
Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I should just like to
enquire from the hon. member.......
Mr. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member seconding
the motion?
Mr. HINDS: Yes, Sir. Iwould like to enquire from
the Prime Minister what amount of tax these buses
will have to pay. I understand that they enter the Port
as buses so constructed with the amount of seating,
but between the Port and the Pine they lose their
identity and they are licensed to carry only six pas-
sengers as a taxi cab. My information is I am not
speaking in the case of the hotel owners of these
station wagons, but there are a number of private
operators who have these station wagons constructed
for accommodating between 12 to 15 passengers, but
when they go to the Pine, they are refused permis-
sion to carry more than 6 passengers. They are
clamouring for a licence to carry more than 6 and
they are refused. Is it a case where this Act makes
provision for those people who want to carry more
than six persons, once the vehicle is so constructed
and will they be allowed to carry more than 6 per-
sons,as they have been carrying? In other words, as
soon as they get to the Pine they are told: "You are
a taxi-cabandwe can only register you as a taxi-cab
to carry 6 persons." There may be a case where the
hotel owners are glad to be registered to carry only
6,but Imean the private operators who want to carry
more than 6. I would just like to hear what is the po-
sition with regard to them.
Hon. E. W. BARROW rose to speak.
Mr. SPEAKER: Is there any other hon. mem-

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Some other hon. member
may want to speak. I forgot that we are not in Com-
mittee; but if it is just a questionof an explanation -
I think I have finished my speech, but perhaps some
other hon. member may wantto speak before I reply.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I clearly understand
the Prime Minister on this matter. What really is
making it very difficult for the people in this coun-
try is this. You have funerals and people have to go
to funerals. They have to go 'cross-country' and so
on, and they cannot get a bus to take them. There
are people who have a taxi or station wagon; you
should license it for carrying 12 persons; they should
be given a licence, but not to run on the routes where
the buses are running. If you give these people a li-
cence for carrying 12 persons, you will find them
running up and down and going into the bus stands
or near the bus stands, andwhenthey make six trips,
a bus may be only there waitingto move off with two
trips, and what we are trying or whatwe tried years
ago to get away from, we will be creating again. In
this case, however, on a Sunday afternoonwhen peo-
ple want to go to Church orto a Service of Song or a
funeral, these vehicles should be allowed to carry
them. It is only this morning that a chap misunder-
stood the speech on the Budget andhewent up to the
Pine. He is licensed to carry 6 passengers, but his
vehicle can carry 12. He misunderstood the Prime
Minister's speech and thought that this was his
chance and he went up to license his vehicle. He was
told: We cannot do it". I told him that he misunder-
stood the position. The reply he got from the people
up there was this: "We have not heard anything from
the Speech yet; so we cannot do anything." They
knew that they could not give him alicence. However,
if this particular chap or anybody else has this par-
ticular vehicle which can carry twelve persons, they
should allow him to license it to carry 12 persons, but
not on the routes operated by the buses. If there is a
special occasion, let them apply to the people up
there, so that whenever they get chartered for a
funeral or a wedding or a Service .of Song, they can
get permission to carry passengers because they
anr not in a position to hire amotor car at all times,
and a bus is not available.
1.00 p.m.

I have something to say about a certain con-
cessionaire. I would not say it now because I do not
want it to be thought that I am against my former
colleague; but this is what my former colleague is
doing now, and it will cause hardship to the people up

When they want a bus for a funeral from my
former colleague, they have to pay the money before-
hand. Now this was never done when he was a poli-
tician or a representative of the parish. You only
telephoned and the bus would go; whether it carried
a load or not, the bus would go.

No sooner than he was disqualified by the people,
this is what is happening. He is not altogether re-
fusing, but he is asking them now to pay the:money
beforehand cash, C.O.D. and you have to collect

~I -

the money yourself. He would not even allow the con-
ductor to collect the money for you; so you have to
find someone to collect the money.

Here it is that I have a funeral of miy own or
someone who belongs to me. Ihave to pay for the bus
and the conductor is not to collect. Youwill hear: "I
will pay you next day" or "when I get back", or "I
do not have any change", or "I do not have any
money." Sometimes that person who has already
paid for the bus does not collect five shillings, but
the bus was full.

Mr. SPEAKER: And that persons stillanM.P.7

Mr. SMITH: If that person in St. Josephwas still
an M.P. he wouldn't do it; sothe people in St. Joseph
are paying dearly for disqualifying their former
representative. They are paying dearly for it. I feel
that it is not fair.

The Government has given these people a licence
to do a service. If they are doing a service, they
should not be able to tell one man that he has to pay
first and then refuse to collect the money. They are
doing a service, and no one else can go there and
transport people.

Here it is now that the mannext door has one of
these pirate buses or station wagons and is willing
to carry the people whether they paid him before-
hand or not; but the law prevents him, and the bus
concessionaire would not do anything at all. Now,
this is where these people should be licensed for
12 passengers. If they want to carry passengers,
say, this evening for a funeral, they should be able
to apply this morning andget alicence to carry them.

This present concessionaire does not want that
service any more, orhewould not be calling on these
people to pay up their money beforehand. He would
not be calling on one mantopay$15.00 or $16.00 for
a bus for 25 or 30 people to drive in. That is what it
means, Sir. One man is paying for 30. That does not
happen in the bus service. One man pays for one, or
perhaps two or three, before the bus leaves the bus

I hope the Minister in charge will go into that.
I am not saying thatwe should compel the con-
cessionaire to do what he does not want to do; but
give licence to these people so that he will have to
apply for permission to take these people. It is as
simple as ABC.
But what the Prime Minister says is true. Some
of them get away with murder at the Port, and they
want to put up another fast one at the Highways and
Transport Department. I agree that we want the
money to spend, but to quote the hon. junior member
for St. Andrew, give these small boys a little more

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I shouldlike
to deal first with the points raisedby the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph.- This whole situation m

Barbado .has been of some concern to the Ministry
of Communications and the Government generally
because the officers who hasv to administer the law
- and I speak now. about policemen'- and the officers
at Highways and Transport are in a difficult position.

What they have been doing is to try to accom-
modate people who have already spent large sums
of money $8,000 or $9,000,I do not know how much
they cost, maybe $6,000 in acquiring these Ford
wagons that we see driving about the place. It is al-
right to say that the Motor Vehicle and Road Traffic
Act says that they cannot run. The point is that the
people in Barbados are using this sort of transport,
and people are looking for some kind of subsistence
out of this conveyance of passengers.

I do not see any problem with th.e pickups. I do
not see anything in the law to prevent pickups from
running. It does not say how you can carry passen-
gers. So long as you construct it to carry flour,,you
can carry passengers sitting on top of the flour or
without the flour. So the next time that one of my col-
leagues has a case in Court, I hope that he will be
able to argue this po-int successfully.

In the Motor Vehicles and Road Traffic Act, 1937
there are three or four definitions which exclude,those
which can carry twelve, thirteen or fourteen passen-
gers from being considered as anything else than a

The first definition is "motor cab" which in-
cludes any motor vehicle kept or used for hire or
reward for the conveyance of not more than six
passengers whether at separate fares or otherwise.

Then you have the definition of "motor omnibus"
which includes any motor vehicle kept or used for
hire or reward or standing and plying for hire or
reward for the conveyance of more than six passen-
gers whether at separate fares or otherwise.

As long as you carry more than sixpassengers,
you come under the definition of motor omnibus. As
the senior member for St. Joseph has pointed out
when they get to the Pine these people hai'e spent
money on these things. They have beenpersuadedby
garages to pay down a small down payment and pay
the rest in two or three years when they arrive at
the Pine, the Inspectors say:"We -.d not see ,any
motor cab or taxi, but we will licence you to carry
not more than six passengers because if we license
you to carry more than six, you may apply for a bus

Mr. Speaker, we are living in a country where
the roads radiate like spokes from a wheel. There
is no cross country transport. An hon. member re-
ferred yesterday to removing people :from alms-
houses. This was our declared policy, and we are
trying to rationalise the structure of Public Assis-
tance in this island. It is inevitable that we should
have more and more centralisation in our Public
Assistance institutions.


People from St. John cannot get to St. Philip
easily. They have to hire a motor car. There is no
eross-country transportation, say, from St. Andrew
or from St. Philip to St. Lucy. There is a definite
requirement for this type of vehicle, and it seems
to me that we will have to gettogether and get a new
definition for an intermediate kind of vehicle which
will be licensed.
1.10 p.m.

I do not like this idea of the Police having to
prosecute people all the time.

There is-the, other side of the picture. Nothing
thatI. am saying now is to betaken as a dispensation
for the Magistrates or Counsel to argue that the
Prime Minister said that these people have a case. I
do not mean a case in court; I mean a case for con-
sideration by the Legislature and the country as a

We have to look at the realities of the situation
in Barbados. I know the difficulties as well as the
dangers. What is happening now is that these ve-
hicles are paralleling what in airtransportwe call
paralleling or running along the same routes the
buses are running. One fellow is doing what w used
to call in football "double-banidng": one in front and
one behind. One goes in front of the transport system
and picks up people, and you have a fellow behind
picking up the others. That is the way in which they
are working. If we cou'd restrict them, except on
Surdays, Bank Holidays and on evenings after the
normal bus hours, to running cross-country r'otes,
we ,may be able to introduce another system of li-
censing now on' the ring roads around Bridgetown
between one parish and another and so on. The prob-
lem is a question of administration. Are you going
to be able to get them to stick to those routes? This
is the problem as I see it.

I do not think thatthis is problem we are going
to settle by looking purely at the interpretation of the
Motor Vehicles and RoaA Traffic Act, or by Police
prosecutions in court. I think the fact that the gen-
eral public makes use of these vehicles is an in-
dication either that the bqs. services are inadequate
or that they are providing a service that the Public
Transport system is not providing. This is how I see
it. I am not speaking purely as Minister of Finance.
I thil:k that we have to lookiat problems as they arise,
and not look to the courts'as means of suppressing
something which is only a[ way of a man earning his
livelihood. But what I should like to see so far as
bus concessions are concerned, is that these people
should keep off the bus r utes. They can operate on

As a matter of fapt, if I were like a certain
friend of mine who rejpices in the name of "Poor
Bob" one day I went/down to see the Chairman of
the A.D.C., and I was/driving a Volkeswagen Van. I
picked up about seven passengers and dropped them
at the Hospital. When they got out, three of them
tendered me a faafe. If I were like a certain friend
of mine called' *ocr Bob", Iwould have collected the

fare. I told them that that one was'on the house', and
I did not collect the fare. (An hon. member: When
did that happen?)

That happened to be a Sunday afternoon at half-
past two, and they did not expect the Prime Minis-
ter to be driving a Volkeswagen Van. On that
particular day that was the only means I had of get-
ting to St. Lucy. I got into the Volkeswagen Van and
went down, and at every bus stop people hailed at
me, and I stopped and picked them up. I did not
see any buses around. I started at Connell Town,
and I ended up with seven people in the van. I did
not have any more accommodation forothers. These
people were trying to get to the Hospital to see their
relatives. The bases do not provide service at that

Sir, if the buses want to get the pirate taxis off
the road, then they should provide services on the
bus routes that we gave them concessions for. As far
as the Transport Board is concerned, they are trying
their best, but we cannot get the buses either from
England or even locally fast enough. I want to say
here, Sir, and I am speaking quite impartially now,
that I do not think we should try to perpetuate legis-
lation which does not face the realities of the trans-
port system in Barbados today, andIhope that, if we
should set up a Joint Committee of members of the
House to recommend ways and means of having a
thrd licensing system, the hon. member, who was
so trenchant in his criticisms and useful inhis sug-
gestions, will be willing to give us the benefit of his

I would just like to say in conclusion that I
cannot agree with the hon. member in castigating
a former member of the House because he asked
for payment in advance. The only people who do
not ask for payment in advance are undertakers, be
cause they have to wait until somebody is dead. I do
not think that this should be regarded as an indict-
ment, because you cannot expect a person who has
been rejected and cast aside to put himself in bank-
ruptcy merely in the expectation of dislodging the
hon. member.

Mr. SMITH: On a point of explanation, Mr.
Speaker, This former hon. member used to make
the people in St. John pay before, but in St. Joseph
he would not do it. I am merely showing you what is
happening now. No hardship has been created in St.
John, but it is created now in St. Joseph.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: We are now in the same
boat, Mr. Speaker, and the hon. member for St.
Joseph does not have any unfair advantage over me
any more. The hon. member for St. James asked
me a question, but I think I have covered it in my
reply. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a
second time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and the
House go into Committee on this Bill.

Hen. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the House
went into Committee on the Bill, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

Clauses 1 to 3 inclusive were called and passed.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now report the passage of one
Bill in Committee.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolvedin the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair and reported

On separate motions of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by
Hon. C. E. TALMA, the Bill was read a third time and passed.

1.20 p.m.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I wouldlike to
do Order No. 5 quickly. This is the last one.


Mr. SPEAKER: Order No. 5 is the next Order
of the Day. It stands in the name of the Hon. and
Learned Prime Minister, and-is the second reading
of a Bill to amend the Racing Service Business
(Registration of Prsmises) Act, 1964.

'Hon. E. W. BARROW: The Bill which we have
before us is a very short one. I am pleased to in-
form hon. members that since the Bill was passed,
we have collected $40,000 from two new Racing
Services; so that the Bill does not appear to have
acted as a deterrent, and I understand there are two
more to be opened shortly.

You will remember that in my Budget Statement
I said that I thought that these services could bear
a higher burden than they were at present bearing;
so the proposal is to increase it to $20,000. I think
I ought to make a statement though in respect of the
existing services. If you look at the Bill, you will
see that it states that "there shall be payable to the
Comptroller for the grant or renewal of a Certi-
ficate of registration in respect of any premises a
fee of twenty thousand dollars." We understand it
and the way it was intended was that any new ser-
vices on and after the 3rd July would pay the full
fee of $20,000, but if you had already paid your fee
of $12,000 for this year, the new fee would not be
due until next year. So the other people have five
months to run to the end of December. Therefore
we are going to collect from everybody before the

end of the financial year; but they will not have to
pay in respect of the calendar year 1968 any addi-
tional fee, because it is only for the grant or renewal
and you will not be renewing or granting unless you
are coming in for the first time.

I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

Mr. MOTTLEY: It is not that I like following
Trinidad or any other place, but I do not like the idea
of the Prime Minister saying that he is pleased to
say that $40,000 have been collected since the State-
ment was made. ( A VOICE: What's wrong with it?)
I am telling you what is wrong with it now. It is
human nature to gamble. This country in the next
five years will need a lot of money, and it is about
time that the Government set up a national lottery, and
do not mindwhat afew oldladies and a few other peo-
ple are going to say. Rockefeller saw fit to do it in
the United States. Since the Bill was passed and you
have collected $40,000, this gives me the idea, and I
feel quite frankly that a national lottery is needed,
because we are going to need a tremendous lot of
money, and you might aswell startworking on it now
by getting somebody to see how it can be worked.
Anybody with an extra 25 cents or 50 cents could
put it in a national lottery. If this has just been
passed and you collected $40,000, imagine what
would happen with a national lottery. Youwould col-
lect about $130,000 in a week. You have Lions Bingo,
Jaycees Bingo and all sorts of gambling facilities of-
ferred, and instead of the Government just getting
the rake-off, they should be getting the real sweets
in this matter.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this,
but when the Prime Minister introduced this part in
his Budgetary Proposals, I was a bit disappointed,
because I thought the Prime Minister would have
taxed them for $100,000 each. (Mr. MOTTLEY: No!)
You are telling me "no"? Inspite of what was said
in a political campaign when we were locked in bat-
tle, I do not know much about this; but in a cam-
paign it is fair for your opponent to find anything to
defeat you with. I bow to these things. The Prime
Minister dubbed me as a gambler, but I ignore the
statements made by the Prime Minister at that time.
I am opposed to these Pools in Barbados. They are
making a bundle of money, and all they are doing day
after day is encouraging alot of young boys and young
men to gamble. You see them lined up every day at
these Pools places, carrying grass for horses, so to
speak, because they play a 50 cents or $1.00 chance
and invariably they lose, but the fellow who can take
a chance with $500 or $1,000 is the one who picks up.
You see thousands of them playing $1.00 or$2.00, and
the people who are making the money are the people
running the Pools. I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, that the
Prime Minister did not hit them for $80,000 each and
run them out. Eric Williams did it in Trinidad and
the only place they could come to was to Barbados.
Although I am happy to hear that the Prime Minister
has collected $40,000, I am sorry it was not $40,000


.from each. I want to support the Prime Minister in
that measure in his Budgetary Proposals. I have no
use for these people at all.

Mr. SPRINGER: Mr. Speaker, beforeyouputthe
question, I suppose I am more acquainted with pool-
betting in Barbados or perhaps in the West Indies
than most hon. members in this House, includingthe
hon. junior member for St. Thomas, who makes it a
habit of losing all the time. As a friend of mine al-
ways said, the easiest way to win is to find the horse
he is playing and play the other.

There is some merit in the suggestion of a na-
tional lottery, but the typ:. of gambling indulged in by
the people who play the Pools is entirely different.
Now the Turf Club runs what we can call a national
lottery. It is run on the same scale as a national
lottery. They sell tickets and draw each week; but
what the Turf Club collects perweekis far less than
any single pool house in the Island collects in the
same week, because the type of gambling is entirely
different. The type of gambling works out this way.
You bet at 12 noon and you know at 12.30 whether
you have won or lost, and if the races are broadcast
and you have more money, you bet again. So the vol-
ume of turnover in a day is much greater. A person
might start the day with $5. He might place $3 on
the first race and probably win $6 on that $3; so by
the time the second race comes up, he has $9 to bet.
He may bet the whole $9 andwinanother $18, put the
$18 on the third race and so on until the last race
when he has $40, and loses all $40. But he has had
a day's fun. That type of gamblingis entirely differ-
ent from a lottery or bingo.

What I would say, Mr. Speaker, is this: the
amount of turnover in the island legally is in the
vicinity of $4 million, and we could work it out quite
easily. If you took what the two Bingo games pay out
per week, combined, it is about $15,000. If you mul-
tiply that by 52 weeks in a year, you will see that is
very close to $ 3/4 million, and then if you take the
Turf Club, they pay out $6,000 perweek, which means
that at the end of the year they pay out $300,000.
1.30 p.m.

Now the average pay out is really 30% of what
you take. If 30% represents $300,000, the remaining
percentage would represent close to another $ 3/4
million. If you add to that the other form of gambling
like the football pools, which is small now that the
racing services have come, if you assume that six
racing services take an average of $2,000 a day, that
is a low take. That is what I know. Even over the
counter this does not include betting by telephone.
If you take six racing pools at $2,000 a day, that is
$12,000 a day in gambling, and if you multiply that
by 300 days a year, taking out Sundays and Bank
Holidays you can see the type of money which is
gambled legally, and this does not take into account
the days when they gamble all day in Trinidad. Be-
cause $4 million is gambled legally in the island, you
cannot assume that if you run a national lottery you
would collect $2 million. (Mr. MOTTLEY: You will
collect a $1 million, though.) If you collect $1 mil-

lion and you work out the cost of running it, printing
and so on, I cannot see it paying to that extent. If the
Government is collecting $3/4 millioninthe coming
year without having any control of the operation, why
do you want to get involved? I know it calls for some
study. I am not saying thatitwillwork or that it will
not work, but if you are collecting close on $ 1 mil-
lion without any headaches, and you have the right,
if you feel that there is more in it and you can put
on a piece more, why do you involve yourself in a
headache for an extra $1/4 million when you have
the right to remove the Bingo tax from 20 to 257
You operate it to suit, and why do you involve your-
self in this?

As to the New York Lottery, I can say that it is a
failure up to now. They are collecting 10% of what
they thought they would have collected because the
"numbers" in America, which is illegal, has a
greater appeal to the people. There are severalpeo-
ple who go into the racing pool every day and take
up a form and pay two dollars, but who would not
buy a Bingo card or a Turf Club ticket. That type of
gambling does not appeal to them. I agree that they
could be some merit in a national lottery, but with
the Government having the control of taxing all forms
of legalised gambling in their hands, I think it calls
for much more study than just saying we should run
a national lottery.

The question that this Bill be now read a second time was
put and resolved in the affirmative without division,

On motion of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by Hon. C. E.
TALMA, Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair, and the House unto Com-
mittee on the Bill, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair,

The three Clauses of the Bill were called and passed.

On motion of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by Hon. C. E.
TALM'A, the CHAIRMAN reported the passing of the Bill in

Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair and reported accordingly.

On separate motions of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by
Hon.. C. E. TALMA, the Bill was read a third time and passed)]


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, the considera-
tion of that Bill concludes the business of thi: sitting.
I beg to move that this House do now adjourn until
Tuesday, 30th July, 1968, at 12 o'clock (noon)

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question that this House do now adjourn until Tues-
day, 30th July, 1968, at 12 o'clock (noon) was put and resolved
in the affirmative without division, and Mr. SPEAKER adjourned
the House accordingly.

1.40 p.m.

Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 24
Supplement to Official Gazette No. 32 dated 21st April, 1969.

S.I. 1969 No. 67

The Miscellaneous Controls Act, 1958
This Order may be cited as the Miscellaneous
Controls (Control of Prices) (Amendment) (No. 3)
Order, 1969.
2. The Schedule to the Control of Prices (Defence)
Order 1942 as contained in the Miscellaneous Con-
trols (Control of Prices) (Amendment) (No. 12)Order,
1966 is hereby further amended:-
(a) by deleting all the words occurring in the
columns marked "WHOLESALE PRICE"
and "RETAIL PRICE" in respect of the
Article PEEF-CORNED "Kudos" and
"Povril" and substituting the WHOLE-
SALE and RETAIL prices of these items
setoutinPart of the Schedule to this Order,
(b) by inserting under the Article BEEF-
CORNED immediately after the item "Fray
Bentos" the item "Grace" together with
the Wholesale and Retail prices in re-
spect thereof set out in Part II of the
Schedule to this Order.

X 3.P. 7Zf z
/3s.73 ^^ _^







(not more than)

$ 17.51 per carton of
24x12 oz. tins

$ 23.03 per carton of
48x7 oz. tins

$ 19.90 per carton of
24x12 oz. tins

(not more than

82D per 12 oz.

541 per 7 oz. tin

93 per 12 oz.


(not more than) (not more than)

BEEF-CORNED: $ 18.93 per carton of 88t per 12 oz.
"Grace" 24x12 oz. tins tin

Made by me the aforesaid Competent Authority
this fourteenth day of April, one thousand nine hun-
dred and sixty-nine.

Permanent Secretary
Ministry of Trade.


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