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Group Title: Official gazette, Barbados
Title: The official gazette
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Title: The official gazette
Physical Description: v. : ill. ; 33-42 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Barbados
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: BridgetownBarbados Published by authority
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Subject: Law -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Genre: periodical   ( marcgt )
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General Note: Caption title.
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Table of Contents
    Main
        Page 333
        Page 334
        Page 335
        Page 336
        Page 337
        Page 338
    Supplement: House of assembly debates for 9th July, 1968
        A 1806
        A 1807
        A 1808
        A 1809
        A 1810
        A 1811
        A 1812
        A 1813
        A 1814
        A 1815
        A 1816
        A 1817
        A 1818
        A 1819
        A 1820
        A 1821
        A 1822
        A 1823
        A 1824
        A 1825
        A 1826
        A 1827
        A 1828
        A 1829
        A 1830
        A 1831
        A 1832
    Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 22; S.I. 64: Industrial incentives (approved products) (fiberglass boats and fibreglass water sports equipment) order, 1969
        A 1833
Full Text














VOL. CIV.


19Rtt,


PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY


BRIDGETOWN, BARBADOS,14TH APRIL, 1969


TABLE OF CONTENTS
Gazette Notices


Acting Appointments:
A. Edghill as Surgeon Specialist, Q.E.H......
K. A. Jordan as Senior Assistant Secretary,
Ministry of Communications & Works
F. Ward as Senior Surgeon Specialist, Q.E.H.
Appointment:
R. P. Shepherd as Chief Town Planner .......
Income Tax Notice (Arrears of Tax)...................
Income Tax Notice (Year of Income 1968)............
Resignation:
Reginal E. Burke, Senior Inspector, Inland
Revenue..................................
Vacant Post in the Public Service:
Chief Labour Officer, Ministry of Agriculture,
Labour and National Insurance........

House of Assembly Debates for 9th July, 1968.


333
333
333
333
335,336
337,338

333

334


Legal Supplement
S.I. 1969 No. 64: Industrial Incentives (Approved Products)
(Fibreglass Boats and Fibreglass Water
Sports Equipment) Order, 1969.


NOTICE NO. 273

GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Appointment

R. P. Shepherd has been appointed Chief
Town Planner, Town Planning Office, with ef-
fect from 1st April, 1969.


(M.P. 8952 Vol. II)


Acting Appointments

F. Ward, Specialist, Queen Elizabeth
Hospital, has been appointed to act as Senior
Surgeon Specialist, with effect from 1st
March, 1969 to 31st May, 1969.

(M.P. 443/63/1 Vol. II)


A. Edghill has been appointed to act as
Surgeon Specialist, Queen Elizabeth Hospital
with effect from 1stMarch, to 31stMay, 1969.

(M.P. 443/63/1 Vol. II)


K. A. Jordan, Senior Personnel Officer,
has been appointed to act as Senior Assistant
Secretary, Ministry of Communications and
Works, with effect from 1st to 30thApiil,
1969.

(M.P. 1515/39/20/9/T2)

Resignation
Reginal E. Burke, Senior Inspector, In-
land Revenue resigns from the Public Service
with e h June, 1969.

( 2776
rr ^T
L 1W


X J3ae7.Ud'B

n~dP 0


. t ,- **


NO. 30


aq1#







OFFICIAL GAZETTE


OFFICIAL GAZETrp l 4, 1 l69


GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Appointments:

Lindsay A. Drakes has been appointed
Groom, Police Department, with effectfrom
1st February, 1969.

(M.P. 3657/7)

The following persons have been ap-
pointed to the post of Staff Nurse, Health
Centres with effect from 1st March, 1969.


Mrs. Grace P. Tulle
Mrs. Edna Barker
Mrs. Sheila Armstrong


(M.P. 5968/5)

Charles G. Johnston, has been appointed
to the post of Electrical Engineer, Electrical
Inspection Department, with effect from 1st
April, 1969.

(M.P. 1703/S.1/4).


Mrs. Merle Arthur, Tutor, Community
College, to be Executive Officer, Ministry of
External Affairs, with effect from 1st April,
1969.

(M.P. 1515/39/22/14)


Resignation

Ulricia V. Best, Clerical Officer, Na-
tional Insurance Office resigned from the
Public Service with effect from 1st April,
1969.


Acting Appointment

L. A. Bourne, Town Planner, Town Plan-
ning Office, acted as Chief Town Planner,
with effect from 3rd April to 9th April, 1969.

(M.P. 8952/10)


Appointments to the Barbados Development-
Bank

Pursuant to the provisions of paragraph
1 of the schedule to the Barbados Development
Bank Act, 1963, the Minister of Finance has
appointed the following persons to be mem-
bers of the Barbados Development Bank for a
period of three years with effect from st
April, 1969:-

Mr. L. Bernstein Chairman
Mr. P. Stewart Kirby Deputy
Chairman
Mr. Clifford Zepherin Member
The Financial Secretary Member
The Manager, Industrial
Development Corporation Member
(M.P. 5021/4 Vol.IV).

Vacant Post in the Public Service
Chief Labour Officer, Ministry of Agriculture,
Labour and National Insurance.

Salary: $10,080 per annum

Further particulars may be obtained from
Service Commissions Department
"Flodden", Culloden Road, St. Michael.

Closing date for applications: 28th June, 1969.


(M.P. 388/10)


(M.P. P. 8613)


An il 1A ilnrn







AICIFFO L GAZETTE


April 14, 199Y --

INCOME TAX NOTICE

ARREARS OF TAX

There are many taxpayers on the delinquent list and it is intended to obtain
immediate collection of unpaid taxes by maintaining a firm policy of collection and using
for this purpose the processes provided by the Income Tax Act 1968.

2. Scores of reminders have been issued to defaulters and there is no intention
of issuing further reminders to those who have disregarded them. Collection will now be
made by way of GARNISHMENT. Those persons in arrears with tax payments are re-
questedto call immediately and pay arrears due, thus avoiding collection through their
employers or other persons.

3. For the information of all concerned the Section of the Income Tax Act 1968
providing for unpaid tax certificates and Garnishment are as set forth:-

W. A. GITTENS
Commissioner of Inland Revnue.
2nd April, 1969.

Section 72. (1) "An amount payable by a person under this Act that has remained
unpaid for a period of 30 days may be certified in relation to that
person by the Commissioner in a certificate called an unpaid tax
certificate.

(2) An unpaid tax certificate may be filed by the Commissioner inthe
High Court or in the Magistrate's Court of District "A" and shall be
registered in the Court in which it is filed and after the expiry of
seven days after it is filed and registered has the same force and ef-
fect as a judgement of the Court in which it is registered in favour
of the Crown against the person named in the certificate for the
amount specified in the certificate plus

(a) interest theron as provided in this Act until the date of pay-
ment; and
(b) the reasonable costs and charges attendant upon the registra-
tion of the certificate;
and all proceedings may be taken on the certificate and it may be en-
forced as if it is a judgement of the Court in which it is registered.

3. Where an unpaid tax certificate is filed by the Commissioner in the
High Court or in the Magistrate's Court of District "A" the Com-
missioner shall forthwith deliver a copy of the unpaid tax certificate to
the person to whom the unpaid tax certificate relates and if the


I l 1 .irinn







OFFICIAL GAZETTE


p''r p t 17u7

INCOME TAX NOTICE Continued

copy of the unpaid tax certificate is not so delivered within 7 days of
the filing then subsection (2) ceases to have effect with respect to
that unpaid tax certificate.

Section 73. (1) Where the Commissioner believes that any person is indebted to or
liable to make a payment to another person and that other person is
indebted to the Crown under this Act, the Commissioner may deliver
to the first mentioned person a demand for payment stating the name
of the person indebted to the Crown and the amount of the debt to the
Crown including the rate of interest thereon, and where that first
mentioned person is the employer of the person indebted to the Crown
the amount demanded for each pay period expressed either as a
dollar amount or a percentage of renumeration.

(2) Every person who receives a demand for payment under subsection
(1) relating to one of his employees shall pay to the Commissioner at
the same time as he would pay that employee the amount demanded by
the Commissioner or the amount of the employee's indebtedness to
the Crown, whichever is lesser, and shall continue to do so on each
occasion that the employee is entitled to be paid until the employee's
indebtedness to the Crown is satisfied.

(3) Every person who receives a demand for payment under subsection
(1) relating to some person other than one of his employees shall, if
he is indebted to or liable to make a payment to that other person,)
pay to the Commissioner the amount of his indebtedness or the
amount which he is liable to pay to that person or the amount of that
person's indebtedness to the Crown, whichever, is the lesser.

(4) Every person who has discharged any liability to a person indebted to
the Crown under this Act after receiving a demand for payment un-
der subsection (1) without complying with subsection (2) or (3) is
liable to pay to the Crown an amount equal to the liability discharged
of which he was required under subsections (2) or (3) to pay the
Commissioner, whichever is the lesser.

(5) The payment of any amount to the Commissioner under subsections
(2) or (3) operates as a discharge of any liability of the person mak-
ing the payment to the person to whom the payment, would but for
this section, have been paid, to the extent of the amount paid to the
Commissioner.

(6) This section is effective notwithstanding the Protection: of Wages
Act, 1951."


*A,..:1 iA nLn







Ap1 14, 19f9 OFFICIAL GAZETTE 1337

INCOME TAX NOTICE

(Year of Income 1968)

Notice is hereby given that Income Tax Returns are required from:-

(1) Every Company, and every person resident or non resident who has
carried on a business, profession, vocation, trade, manufacture or un-
dertaking of any kind, or an adventure or concern in the nature of trade
in Barbados during the income year 1968.

(2) Every person who was in the income year 1968 -
(a) an owner of land;
(b)' as owner of property, other than land, from which as assess-
able income was derived:
(c) a trust or estate;
(d) an individual who
(i) was a married person who wholly supported his spouse,
or
(ii) was a married man whose wife was habitually living with
him,
and whose assessable income, including the assessable income of
his spousewas $1,400 or over in the income year; or

(e) an individual other than an individual described in paragraph
(d) whose assessable income was $800 or over in the income
year.


2. Return Forms

Returns may be obtained from the Inland Revenue Department (2nd
Floor) Treasury Building, Bridge Street, and forms duly filled in must
be delivered to me on or before 30th April, 1969.

3. Every Company and every other person required to file a return of his
assessable income shall in the return
(a) set out the deductions from assessable income that he wishes to
claim,
(b) calculate his taxable income, and
(c) estimate the amount of tax payable by him.











4. payment of Tax
The tax as estimated and unpaid must be paid as indicated hereunder: -

(a) By Companies
on or before 30th April, 1969.

(b) By Individuals
One half (1/2) not later than 30th June, 1969.
The other half (1/2) not later than 30th November, 1969.

W. A. GITTENS
Commissioner of Inland Revenue.


FORMS TO BE USED BY INDIVIDUALS

1. Short Form

This return form should be used by persons in receipt of income from
the following sources only:-

(a) employment (salary, wages pension etc.) and
(b) interest arising in Barbados.

a brochure has been prepared to assist persons using the short form in
completing returns and estimating tax payable. A copy will be issued with
each form. Please ensure that you obtain a copy.

2. General Form

This return form should be used by all other persons. For persons filing
the General Form a Guide has been prepared; this should be of assis-
tance in completing returns and estimating tax payable. A copy will be
issued with each return form.
0
Penalties

(1) Failure to deliver a return of income by 30th April, 1969, to estimate
tax payable, 5% of tax assessed and unpaid.

(2) Failure to pay an account of tax estimated or that is assessed and
unpaid 5% of the tax due and unpaid or $10 which ever is the greater,

And in addition to penalties at (1) and (2) liable on Summary con-
viction to a fine of not less than $10.00 and not greater than $10,000.

(3) Interest at the rate of 1% per month.


Uoavernment Printing Orfice.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


41l irpA 1969













THE


House of Assembly Debates




(OFFICIAL REPORT)


SECOND SESSION OF 1966 71


HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 9th July, 196S

Pursuant to the adjournment, the House of As-
sembly met at 12 o'clock noon today.

PRESENT

His Honour J. E. T, BRANCKER, Q.C., F.Z.S., (Speaker);
Mr. L. E.. SMITH, J.P.; Hon. C. E. TALMA, (Ministerof Health)
and Community Development); Hon. J. C. TUDOR, M.A. (Leader
of the House); Mr. J, W. CORBIN, J.P.; Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON
(Minister of Trade, Tourism, Co operatives and Fisheries); Mr.
R. ST.C. WEEKS, J.P,; Mr. W. R. LOWE, J.P.; Hon. N. W. W.
BOXILL, (Minister of Communications and Works); Sir G. H.
ADAMS, C.M.G., Q.C., B,A., D.C.L. (Hon.), (Leader of the Op-
position); Mr. W. C. B. HINDS and Mr. C. A. E. HOPPIN, J.P.

Prayers were read.




MINUTES

Mr. SPEAKER: I regret to have to inform hon.
members that only the Minutes of the meeting of
Tuesday, 12th March this year are available for con-
firmation. I understand that they have been circulated,
and unless any member objects, I will declare these
Minutes duly to be confirmed.

There being no objection, the Minutes are de-
clared confirmed.

PAPERS LAID

Hon J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
Hon. and Learned Prime Minister, Minister of Fi-
nance and Minister of External Affairs I beg to lay the
following: -
Report of the Ministry of External Affairs for the
year 1967.

The Pensions (Pensionable Offices) (Amend-
ment) Order, 1968.

On behalf of the Minister of Agriculture and Na-
tional Insurance, I beg to lay the Report of the Regis -
trar of Trade Unions for the year 1967-68.


GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
Hon. and Learned Prime Minister, Minister of Fi-
nance and Minister of External Affairs I beg to give
notice of the following: -

A Resolution to place the sum of $21,447 at the
disposal of the Government to supplement the Esti-
mates 1968-69, Part I Current, as shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1968 -69 No. 10 which form
the Schedule to the Resolution.

A Resolution to place the sum of $8,000 at the
disposal of the Government to supplement the Esti-
mates 1968-69, Part I Current, as shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 11 which form
the Schedule to the Resolution.

A Resolution to place the sum of $20,540 at this
disposal of the Government to supplement the Esti-
mates 1968-69, Part II Capital, as shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 12 which form
the Schedule to the Resolution.

A Resolution to approve the Pensions (Pension-
able Offices) (Amendment) Order, 1968.

A Bill to amend the Income Tax Act, 1921,

On my own behalf, Mr. Speaker, I beg to give
notice that Reply to Parliamentary Question No. 178
asked by the junior member for St. James is ready.

BILL READ A FIRST TIME

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that a Bill to amend the Income Tax Act, 1921 be read
a first time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.
SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, as I intimated
to the hon. senior member for St. Joseph, I propose
to move the suspension of Standing Orders 5, 14, 16,
18, 19, 38, 40 and 45 for the remainder of the day's
sitting. I give the usual undertaking that Question









1807


Time and Private Members' Business will be taken
at the appropriate time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division..

RESOLUTION OF THANKS FOR GIFTOF
BOOKS TO LIBRARY

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, in consultation
with the Hon. Leader of the Opposition Ibeg to move
the passing of the following address:-

THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
TO
THE QUEEN'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY

Most Gracious Sovereign:

The House of Assembly with loyalty and due
submission beg to inform Your Majesty that they
have thankfully received from the House of Com-
mons in the United Kingdom a most valuable gift of
books for their Library.

The House note with pleasure that this gift
commemorates the Independence of Barbados, and
that Your Majesty had been pleased to direct, in re-
sponse to a prayer made by the House of Commons,
that the appropriate supply be provided.

The House accordingly wish to thank Your
Majesty for this gesture of goodwill, and respectfully
request that an expression of their warm appreciation
to the Honourable House be conveyed to Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, after some consultation between
myself and the Hon. Leader of the Opposition, it has
been decided that our appreciation for the gift which
has been sent to us by the Hon. House of Commons
of the United Kingdom be expressed in this form.

The reason is this: the procedure taken was that
an Address was passed by the House of Commons
to the Queen asking Her Majesty to give directions
for a Library to be presented from the House of
Commons to the House of Assembly of Barbados, and
also assuring Her Majesty that the House of Com-
mons would be prepared to make good the supply
necessary for the gift.

The Queen replied in a Message that she had
given such directions, whereupon the customary
Resolution was moved and passed in the House of
Commons and it was in this wise that the matter
was settled and we were able some four weeks ago
to receive a delegation from the House of Commons
with the gift.
12.25 p.m.

We had, of course, both myself and the Hon.
Leader of the Opposition, on the occasion of the pre -
sentation expressed the thanks of the House, but we
gave the assurance that the House itself would in its-


customary form express the thanks which was due
both to the Queen and the House of Commons. It is,
therefore, in this way that we decided to do it, and I
am sure that I need not repeat all that the three of us
said on that occasion when we expressed the grati-
tude of the House and of the individual members not
only for the selection of the books, but for the thought
and generosity which prompted the gift. I, therefore,
beg to move that this Address do now pass.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I have
very much pleasure indeed in secondingthe passage
of this Resolution. As the Hon. Leader of the House
has said, it is unnecessary for us to repeat all that
we said on that occasion, which includes Your Hon-
our. But I think it is right that, coming from the
House, we should say what a great gesture it is. I
repeat that much of what I saidon the occasion on the
actual presentation, because I do not know who was
responsible for the actual choice of the books; but the
choice reflects consideration and, in fact, is even a
compliment to the House of Assembly of Barbados
and thereby to the people of Barbados and to the edu-
cational standard of Barbados and what we may call
the comparatively wide reading of the Barbadian
public.

As hon. members will have noted, on looking at
the books, they could not help but reflect the cultural
aspects, one may say, of the Barbadian public in that
there were so many books on cricket included in the
gift. Onepoint to which I referred and to which I will
refer again is the fact that they have included a num-
ber of dictionaries not only in the modern languages:
French, Germany, Spanish and English which is a
foreign language to some hon. members on the other
side, but even Latin, the great standby to classical
students Lewis & Short Latin Dictionary and
Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon.

I have just spoken of the cultural aspects and
the educational standards of Barbadians. Iwas rather
surprised when I was looking at the books, in came
the Clerk of the House and it was he who first pointed
out to me these dictionaries and books on cricket.
He said to my great surprise great surprise be-
cause he mixes so much with Government members,
and I would have thought that he would have come
across the word before. He said he had come across
the word for the first time in his life "hydrocepha-
lus", and knowing that the Creek word for water was
"hydro", he looked it up and found that it contained
two Greek words "hydro" meaning water and "ce-
phalus" meaning head. In other words, "water on the
brain". I was, therefore, as I said, rather surprised
that although he mixes so much with members of the
Government, yet he did not perceive the meaning of
the word "hydrocephalus" and its application.

Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that hon.
members and I mean this quite seriously I say it
without, I hope, any reasonable accusation of pre-
tence to knowledge, but frankly we would all be better
off from reading those books on Parliamentary Pro-
cedure more often. There would be fewer mistakes
made; there would be fewer breaches of order, and








1808


lit is not confined to this House. I have heard some
strong language used in the House of Commons by the
Speaker, and even by the Prime Minister in referring
to the frequent abuse in fact, it was the Prime
Minister from whom I got the word "fraudulent",
and I referred to it last week the frequent abuse of
some hon. members rising on a point of order which
is not a point of order, but in order to make a debat-
ing point, to make another speech.

I suggest to the 23 hon. members to read, learn
and inwardly digest what they must learn if they read
these books on Parliamentary Procedure. There are
some books, which I take it, Your Honour, are not
in the category of books of reference, inthis part of
the House which members could take home and read,
and therefore they can still improve their knowledge
of Parliamentary Procedure by reading these books
which are available to them for reading at home.

Mr. SPEAKER: I take it that the Hon. Leader of
the Opposition means to take home, read, and return.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Even though, like my-
self, they will not return them for weeks and in a few
cases for months. It only shows that somebodyelse,
who should have been reading the books,has not asked
for them.

Mr. Speaker, I again say that I have very great
pleasure indeed in seconding this Resolution. It is a
great gesture, and we ought to be very thankful for
this gift of books.

Mr. SPEAKER: It does not appear that any other
hon. member seeks to contribute to this debate on this
Resolution of Thanks. If I may be permitted to asso-
ciate myself, I will do so on behalf of the House and,
of course, myself in this magnanimous and gracious
gift from what is still the Mother of Parliaments to
one of the very oldest of her former children.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.


Mr. SPEAKER: I should have interpolated ear-
lier, when the Hon. Leader of the Opposition was
speaking, that the choice of books was made by the
Hon. Leader of the House with whom was associated
the Hon. Deputy Leader of the Opposition, the learned
senior member for Christ Church. Both parties took
a hand and collaborated.

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Government Business be now taken.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

Mr. SPEAKER: Government Business is now
the instant Order of the Day. Order No. 1 stands in
the name of the Hon. Leader of the House, and it is


to move the House into Committee of Supply to con-
sider the grants of sums of moneyfor the service of
the Island.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and the
House go into Committee of Supply.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the House
went into Committee of Supply, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

12.35 p.m.



SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 1968 -69 No.9
Head 35 Waterworks was called.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, as the Ad-
dendum sets out, the sum of $13,000 which was pro-
vided in the 1967-68 Estimates for the purchase of a
Mobile Compressor for the Waterworks Department
lapsed because the purchase of this equipment was
not effected by the end of the financial year. It is
accordingly necessary to revote this amount to meet
the cost of the equipment this financial year.

What really took place was that some time in the
financial year 1967-68, tenders were invited to supply
this piece of equipment, but due to circumstances be -
yond our control the equipment was not purchased
then. As a result the money lapsed, and we are now
asking the Committee to revote this amount so that
we might be able to purchase this piece of equipment.
This Compressor is for driving pneumatic drills and
will be on wheels.

I beg to move that Head 25 Waterworks stand
part.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

Head 38 Ministry of Education (1) General Administration
was called.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, under item
44A Centre for Multi-Racial Studies, the sum of
$3,600 is asked for in respect of this item, and it is
because Government has decided to make a sub-
vention.to the Centre for Multi-Racial Studies inre-
spect of the care of the Richard B. Moore Library.
Hon. members will see from the Addendum what the
Centre has to do in respect of this guardianship. If
there are any questions arising, I will be pleased to
answer, although for the benefit of the hon. junior
member for St. Peter, I should like to say that all
the Library has not been received. Mr. Moore has
explained that his principal assistant who has been
helping him in packing and so on has been on a visit
to Africa and will not return for a month or so, and








1809


that he himself had been changing residence, but he
lopes within the next two or three months, and at
any rate not later than the end of September to have
the whole thing assembled, packaged and delivered
to Barbados. If there are any more questions, I shall
be pleased to answer them.

I beg to move that Head 38 stand part.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I do not think it is
necessary for me to say much at this stage, except
that I am glad to see that the Library has found a
resting place. I hope that will not be taken to mean a
burying place. What strikes me about this Resolu-
tion is simply this: the Leader of the House has just
informed us that the complete Library has not yet
arrived. Evidently, he was trying to take the wind out
of my sails, because he knows quite well that I would
be well apprised of all that is happening. Neverthe-
less we are asked here to vote the sum of $3,000 as
Government's contribution to the Centre for guard-
ing the Library and what not. I am well aware of the
fact that Mr. Chandler, the Archivist, went over to
New York and saw what he could of the Library, and
I am in a position to say that even Mr. Chandler's
visit and examination was not on a broad enough
scale as to permit him to return to Barbados with a
complete catalogue of these books.

We are not saying, Mr. Chairman, thatour con-
tribution to the Multi-Racial Centre must necessarily
be based on the number of books,but nevertheless if
the Centre for Multi-Racial Studies is to undertake
any work in respect of these books, one would have
expected that the books would have arrived and an in-
spection and examination carried out locally, and'
some means arrived at whereby we could assess in
its entirety what charge or contribution might be laid
on us. In other words, Mr. Chairman, I would hardly
believe that if this Library consisted of, let us say,
100 books that our contribution would have been
$3,600. If it is a case where we would have been
asked to pay $3,600 whether the books were 100,
1,000 or one million, I would like to hear from the
Leader of the House.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, the Hon.
member has raised two very interesting points. Let
me deal with one of them immediately. We are not
giving this subvention to the Centre for Multi-Racial
Studies on the basis of the number of books. This does
not arise at all. This is being given because in our
view and this is aviewwhich think is appreciated
and shared by a lot of people they are the proper
establishment to look after a collection of this sort.
12.45 p.m.

The Richard B. Moore collection which has
spread over some forty or fifty years of Mr. Moore's
interest in collecting books, includes books on al-
most every aspect of Negro history and literature,
books on the early colonization of Africa, books on
the Arawak civilization of Latin America, books,for
instance, on the role of the European colonising


powers in Africa and Asia, and many other catego-
ries of books are in this collection. By my owni esti-
mate, and I have seen a part of it, the collection must
number easily about fifteen thousand or twenty thous -
and volumes; it may be afewless or it may be a few
more. When Mr. Chandler first visited Mr. Moore,
I believe, in 1965 or whenever it was, to see the col-
lection, he did make a provisional catalogue -a sam-
ple catalogue because he did not have the time to
see the complete collection; but what he saw was
enough to give the Government some idea of the
intrinsic value of the collection. It was largely on
the basis of his provisional report that we under-
stood how valuable and how important a collection
this Was. The full cataloguing and arrangement can
only be made when the Library is completely as-
sembled. However, for as much of it as has already
been received, and I think I can safely say that much
more than one half of it is already in the Island, some

preliminary cataloguing has been done.

I myself do not knowthe technical terms for this,
but Mr. Chandler and his assistants with help from
some of the people of the History section of the Uni-
versity of the West Indies, and some assistance also
from Mr. St. Hill of the Public Library, have all had
a very close and technical examination of the collec-
tion which has been so far received, and they have
been able to make quite an interesting recommenda-
tion as to how the books are to be catalogued and how
they are to be finally presented for use to the public.
The connection between that and what is nowproposed
is simply this; since the entire collectionwouldbe a
valuable adjunct for the general public and the re-
searchers generally in their work of multi-racial
societies, it has been thought that the Centre for the
Study of Multi-Racial Societies should be the proper
guardian of the collection. We have every reason to
believe that they will look after it properly and will
be able to make the collection or anypart of it, from
time to time as it is required, entirely available to
scholars, students and the general public. And what
is even more important is that they will also be able
to look after its continual preservation, maintenance
and upkeep.

This is a collection which will have to be added
to from time to time. The Universities of Sussex and
the U.W.I. will want to add to the collection from time
to time as soon as appropriate material comes to
light. Public benefactors, I believe, will also wish
at some time to give new volumes of interesting
works on the History of negritude, as it is called,
to it, and the general public may wish from time to
time to take advantage of this development. On the
basis of these considerations and in full consultation
with the authorities of the Centre, they have said that
they think the physical facility already provided, the
room or rooms in which the collection is to be housed
and these facilities will have accessibility as well
as all the requirements for the preservation of preci-
ous books, will have availability and also they will
always be under the kind of staff which can do the
re-classifying and re-cataloguing whenever these
should be necessary, and can site any additional gifts
and bequests into the appropriate sections as and








1810


_when they are made. Therefore, by and large, I do
not think that we need have any fear that the collec -
tion will not be properly looked after and properly
cared for. The main point, of course, is that it must
be always available to those who wish to study, whe -
ther they are academics or members of the general
community. Equally important is the fact that the col -
lection is beinghanded over to a responsible academic
body, and they have undertaken, apart from the usual
requirements of maintenance, preservation and
availabity, to do what is required with respect to
commemorating both the Lions Club of Barbados for
their generosity, and commemorating especially Mr.
Moore for the scholarship and the persistence which
he has shown over the years first in collecting such
a worthy prize, and then in making it available in
these circumstances.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, Iwonder
if the Hon. Leader of the House was speaking off the
cuff when he spoke of adding to the Library by future
gifts. Surely the Richard B. Moore Library should be
kept by itself, and you could have an annexe for fu-
ture gifts. The Richard B. Moore Library in the
year 2,000 will cease to be the Richard B. Moore
Library and it will cease to be ascertainable as the
Richard B. Moore Library if you mix up subsequent
gifts. I hope that the Hon. Leader of the House was
merely speaking off the cuff, because it seems to me
that this is a unique collection which should be kept
as the Richard B. Moore Library, just as in the case
of the Law Library, although I believe, there is a
little mixing over there. Books which belonged to the
late Mr. Walter Reece, some 2,000 of them, are pur-
chased and put in a separate part of what, I believe,
should be called the Law Library.

I make the suggestion and this is a matter for
the Multi-racial people that this Library should be
kept by itself as being unique and other contributions
could be an annexe. I would not guess off-hand I
saw those books about fifteenyears or more ago when
I was not at that time a persona non grata. If I were
to attempt to cross Mr. Richard B. Moore's place
now-a-days, I would be shot, I have no doubt; but I
do say that in the days when he thought that I was
contributing something to Barbados and the West In-
dies, he did show me these books. However, this is a
unique collection, as the Hon. Leader of the House has
said. It is a labour of love to have collected these
books over all of these years, and there are some
books in his Library which it would be extremely
difficult indeed to find except inthelargestlibraries
of the United States or Britain or France.
12.55 p.m.

I want to make this one little point, one contri-
bution, in saying that this is intended in respect of
the care of the Richard B. Moore Library. The chief
point I want to make is the original point that this
Library should be kept uniquely by itself.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, before the Leader of
the House rises to reply, I think that he made men-
tion of the word "Negro" in reference to the Richard
B. Moore Library. I thought I should remind the Min-


ister that Mr. Moore has since published a book en-
titled "The Word 'Negro' and its Evil Use." In that
book Mr. Moore says that the word has a degrading
connotation and is something repugnant to human de-
cency. I am sure that Mr. Moore would not like his
Library to be connected in any way with the word
"Negro".

What I do know is that Mr. Moore much prefers
to make such references as Afro -American or Afro-
West Indian, as the case may be. There is one other
point that I want to make. I hope that everything will
be done by the Government and the Centre for Multi-
racial Studies to make the Library available particu -
larly to the boys and girls who want to study those
from the Primary and the Secondary Grammar
Schools in the country districts.

I hope that everything will be done to publicise
it that the Library is being used at the Centre for
Multi-racial Studies and that it is available to these
boys and girls, and that they can be made to feel as
part and parcel of the whole undertaking that is being
carried out at this Centre.

I sincerely hope, Mr. Chairman, that onthe next
occasion on which we make mention of the name of the
Richard B. Moore Library that this Hon. House will be
receiving a report that atlonglast the ship bringing
the Richard B. Moore Library has sailed into the
Bridgetown Port at long last.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, there are
three points on which I want to speak. I did not want
to suggest in my remarks that nothing will be done
to preserve the collection, and that it would be dis-
sipated in such a way as to lose its identity as other
bequests bearing on the same topics. No; every sen-
sible and proper method will be taken and used to
preserve this collection as a distinction collection.
Just as you have in New York the famous Schomburg
Collection preserved, so will this be preserved.

But, of course, books on cognate or equally im -
portant studies may well, of course, be acquired by
the Centre. In any case, it is proposed that a large
portion of the Richard B. Moore collection will be
stamped in such a way that it will always be recog-
nized as the Richard B. Moore Collection.


The second point deals with one raised by the
hon. junior member for St. Peter. I did not really
use the word "Negro". I said that a lot of the books
covered what is known as negritude. That is a word
recently coined by the Society of African Writers,
among whom are such distinguished persons as
Cesar Ayme of Martinque and President Leopold
Sengar of Senegal, both of whom are close friends
of Mr. Moore and with whom he corresponds.


The word negritudee" is used to describe a
philosophy, an outlook. It has nothing offensive about
it; but, as I have said, it is used by the Society of
African Writers.








1811


I know that Mr. Moore has strong feelings on the
word 'negro' and what I was sayingwas that the col-
lection covered a vast part of the field of negritude.

The second point made by the hon. member was
that he hoped that full publicity would be given to the
establishment of the Library and that it would be
available particularly to the younger generation for
study. This hope is fully shared by the Government,
although I should point out that the books in the
Richard B. Moore collection will not, except at a
certain intellectual level, prove to be ordinary read-
ing books.

They are books of reference, and naturally school
children as well as older scholars will have the books
available to them. Some of the books, as I think the
hon. member knows, are pure history. Some of them
are legend dealing with allegorical subjects; but in
such a collection it is obvious that there will be a
large part which will be suited to the more general
reader. An impressive part of the collection would
be suited to research scholars and students who want
to fill up gaps in their history and which only that
collection can fill.

There will be something for everyone, and there
is no reason to believe that young people as well as
the general public cannot make use of the collection
and that the treasure in this collection will not be
theirs to draw upon.

The question that Head 38 (1) stand part was put and
agreed to.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to move that the Reso-
lution do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Ibegto move that the Chair-
man do now report the passing of one Resolution in
Committee.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. CHAIRMAN reported to Mr. SPEAKER who
resumed the Chair and reported accordingly.
1.05 p.m.






Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this Resolution be now read a first time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.


The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this Resolution be now read a second time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put andresolved in the affirmative with-
out division.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker,
that this Resolution be now agreed to.


I beg to move


Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.


DAIRY INDUSTRY (REGULATION AND
CONTROL) BILL, 1968

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day stands i
in the name of the Hon. Leader of the House, and it is
to resume debate on the consideration of the Amend-
ments of the Senate to the Dairy Industry (Regulation
and Control) Bill, 1968.

In respect of that we will be unable to proceed
now inasmuch as the Committee has had one meeting
only, which was extremely sparsely attended, and it
was decided to postpone its next meeting to a date
about a fortnight from then; therefore there has been
no Report yet laid on the Table of this House in re-
spect of these Amendments by the Other Place,

Order No. 3 is the nextOrder of the Day, and it
stands 'in the name of the Hon. and Learned Prime
Minister.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to
take charge of this matter in the absence of the Hon.
and Learned Prime Minister.

CIVIL ESTABLISHMENT (GENERAL)
(AMENDMENT) (No.3) ORDER, 1968

Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the House is
asking leave to take charge of Order No. 3 in the ab-
sence of the Hon. and Learned Prime Minister. Un-
less there is any objection, leave will be granted to
the Hon. Leader of the House to proceed to move the
passing of a Resolution to approve the Civil Establish-
ment (General) (Amendment) (No. 3) Order, 1968.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Thankyou, Mr. Speaker. This
House will see that this Civil Establishment'Order
really concerns three Departments of Government:
the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Post Office and the
Training Unit. I suppose the most significant part of
the Order deals with the proposal to abolish the post
of Confidential Records Officer. This arises from the
fact that for some time now all of the Ministries of
the Government have, of course, established their
own registries in which their confidential documents
and papers are being taken care of.

This devolution, so to speak, this decentralisa-
tion makes it unnecessary for this post and this office








1812


,to be retained, since each Ministry nowhas for some
time assumed and will continue to assume responsi-
bility for its own classified and confidential papers

The second part arises out of the decision al-
ready communicated to and approved by this House
to set up a Philatelic Bureau, which is to fulfil a
long-felt need in the Post Office administration. The
proposal, therefore, is to give them an Assistant
Supervisor and a Stenographer.

The third section deals with the establishment
of a Training Unit in the manner set out in the Ad-
dendum.

I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

LEASE OF LAND TO THE BARBADOS LIGHT
AND POWER COMPANY LIMITED

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day stands
in the name of the Hon. Leader of the House, and it
is to move the passing of a Resolution to approve the
leasing of a parcel of land to the Barbados Light and
Power Company Limited for the purpose of main-
taining a sub-station already erected thereon.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, this Resolution
has reference to a piece of land in the City which is
part of the lands of the Central Police Station -
roughly 126 sq. ft. It is proposed that this lease be
granted to the Barbados Light and Power Company
Limited for a stated period of 10 years at a rental
of $21.50. per year. I beg to move that this Resolu-
tion do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
1.15 p.m.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, while I
shall be told that the area is very small, how does
anybody know the value of land in five or ten years'
time? It is too long a period for so small a rental.
Surely that must have occurred to members of the
Government. You make a lease now; how are you go-
ing to change it unless you pass an Act to tear it up?
How if land goes up tremendously in value till you
get a reasonable sum of money for the rental in an-
other seven years or whatever time it may be clear
that rental values have gone up tremendously? Look
at land values in this Island! I suggest to the Gov-
ernment that there is no earthly reason for renew-
ing it at that rental simply because it is a small
portion of land.

Mr. SPEAKER: If there are no otherhon. mem-
bers desirous of speaking, then the Hon. Introducer
may exercise his right of final reply.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: The hon. member has raised
an important point, but I think I can assure him that


,all aspects of this matter were very carefully gone
into, and it was discovered that the interest of the
public would not be badly served by this arrange-
ment. Ten years is not thought to be such an exorbi-
tantly, extravagantly, long time, and it is also felt
that, as I said, the interest of the public and of the
community is not badly served by this arrangement.
(A VOICE: When does the lease expire?) I believe
the hon. member's question sotto voce is when does
the present lease expire. The lease expired on the
14th February, 1967 and it was in December of last
year that the application for renewal was made.

The question that the Resolution do now pass was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division,


SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I think this is
perhaps a convenient time for us to suspendthe Sit-
ting.

I beg to move that this Sitting be now suspended
until 2.45 p.m.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I would
like to ask whether lunch is being provided now. Is
this to be taken as the luncheon interval?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I do not think so, Mr.
Speaker.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Is there going to be
lunch later on?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Oh yes.

The question that the sitting be now suspended until 2.45
p.m. was put and resolved in the affirmative without division,
and Mr. SPEAKER suspended the sitting accordingly.



On Resumption:


Mr. SPEAKER: Order No. 5 is the next Order of
the Day.

QUESTION TIME

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Question Time be now taken.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolvedin the affirmative with-
out division.


Mr. SPEAKER: I am advised thatonlyone Reply
has today been laid, and that is to Question No. 178
in the name of the hon. junior member for St. Peter.
I am also reminded that there was a question in re-
spect of which supplementaries were being asked








1813


when Question Time expired at the last meeting o;
this House, and that was in the name of the same hon.
member.

Question No. 123 which stands in the name of
the hon. junior member for St. Peter is the question
on which supplementaries had apparently not been
completed when time was called. Are there any other
supplementaries in respect of Question No. 123?
2.50 p.m.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I wouldlike to enquire
from the Minister. I remember on the last occasion
my first supplementary Question to him was whether
he knew of any arrangements by International Scien-
tific Limited to provide Cod Liver Oil for any of the
workers there.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, I think I
replied that I knew of no such arrangements.

Mr. HINDS: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the Minis-
ter can tell us whether any tests have been carried
out on the eyesight of any of the employees there
since these Questions have been asked.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, the Reply
to that Question was given last week when it was
pointed out that the Labour Department Act, 1943,
prohibits information being given out by the Labour
Department, which it gets from the employers. I made
this quite clear. I invited the hon. member to have a
look at the Labour Department Act, 1943.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, is it that the Minister
is trying to protect the Labour Department in this
instance or is he looking after the interest of the
workers?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: It is the duty of the
Minister to protect Officers who are working under
him.

Mr. HINDS: I wonder if the Minister realises
the responsibility of hon. members to look after the
interest of the workers.

Mr. SPEAKER: Is the question'whether the hon.
member wonders?'

Mr. HINDS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, 'whether the Min-
ister wonders'.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: The Minister does not
wonder; he knows that it is the responsibility of peo-
ple to protect the workers, and he is one of the great-
est protectors of the workers in this country.

DELAY OF CANE-FIRE VIGILANCE
POLICE SQUAD

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Question to which the
Reply has been laid is Question No. 178, standing in
the name of the hon. junior member for St. Peter.
That is on page 13, left-hand column.


Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the ap-
propriate Minister: -

Is Government aware that the cane -fire vigilance
squad of the Royal Barbados Police due to carry out
special duties in the Northern Parishes of this Island
on the night of Tuesday, April, 23rd, 1968, did not
leave Central Police Station at the scheduled hour?

2. Is Government aware that the long delay was
due to an outbreak of near-riot conditions, firstly in
the barrack room, and secondly, in a police van and
thirdly in the yard at Central Police Station in which
the policemen involved were engaged intorch-light-
smashing, baton-tossing and stone-throwing?

3. Does Government realise that men who were
on duty and due for relief at the scheduled hour were
thus delayed and caused to work extra hours whilst
this exhibition of bad manners was taking place?

4. What steps have been taken, if any, to prevent
a recurrence?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, the Replyto the
hon. member's Question is as follows:-

"1. Yes, Sir.

2. No, Sir. The delay was due to a misunder-
standing of the details of duties for drivers which re-
sulted in the absence of a driver at the scheduled time
of departure of the police van from Central Police
Station.

3. The men on duty for relief were delayed
for approximately half an hour.

4. Stricter supervision over the despatch of
police patrols in the country districts was carried
out."

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to hear
from the Minister if there was torch-light-smashing,
baton-tossing and stone-throwing on the premises of
the Central Police Station on the night in question?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I am afraidthat I cannot as-
sist the hon. member. The question seems, of course,
to imply that, or rather not to imply it because it was
stated in the original question; but I see no mention
of it in the answer. Obviously, there was some dis-
turbance.

Mr. HINDS: Do I understand the Minister to ad-
mit that there was some sort of disturbance at the
Central Police Station on the night of April 23rd,
1968?


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Yes, I would think so. If a
particular patrol was delayed from taking up its
duties, and if this delay was due to a misunderstand-
ing of the details of duties for the drivers, I would
call that a disturbance, certainly.








1814


Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, is it that the Hon.
Leader of the House has a different interpretation
of the English Language than what hon. members on
this side of the House would have? In other words, the
Minister is saying that a misunderstanding arising
from a van driver not knowing that he was detailed
for duty for a specific hour, constituted a distur-
bance. I would like to know if the Minister means
that a disturbance is an offence chargeable at law
or a disturbance of the mind or whatever he is re -
ferring to.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I am afraid that I am not
clever enough to mean any such thing. If a particu-
lar or a regular schedule of work has been inter-
rupted, I would say that it has been disturbed.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, are we to understand
that whenever there is such a misunderstanding as
the Minister refers to, are we to believe that po-
licemen are smashing torch-lights at each other
and throwing stones about the compound of the Cen-
tral Station at each other?
3.00 p.m.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: The hon. member may un-
derstand that if he wishes. I don't.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Will the Hon. Leader
of the House promise to answer me now, and not
facetiously? He has said that the delay was not due
to this outbreak in question. Is the hon. member ad-
mitting that there was an outbreak, but that it was
not the cause of the delay? If there was an outbreak,
has it been investigated?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: That has already been an-
swered explicitly or impliedly. The question was: Is
the Government aware that the cane-fire vigilance
squad of the Royal Barbados Police due to carry out
special duties in the Northern Parishes of this Island
on the night of Tuesday, April 23rd, 1968, did not
leave Central Police Station at the scheduled hour?

The answer to that was "yes". We were further
asked if Government was aware that the long delay
was due to an outbreak of near-riot conditions, firstly
in the barrack room, and secondly in a police van
and thirdly in the yard at Central Police Station in
which the policemen involved were engaged in torch-
light-smashing, baton-tossing and stone-throwing?

Does Government realise that men who were on
duty and due for relief at the scheduled hour were
thus delayed and caused to work extra hours whilst
this exhibition of bad manners was taking place?

What steps have been taken if any, to prevent a
recurrence?


The reply was that stricter supervision for the
despatch of patrols to country districts is carried out.
I have no personal knowledge of any riot or near-riot
conditions. I just do not know. I am answering the
question as I see information appearing on the file.


Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Will the Hon. Leader
of the House answer this question? He said that the
delay was not due to a disturbance in the proper sense
of the word, and if there was a disturbance it had
nothing to do with the delay. What I ask was if that
disturbance has been investigated. The Police are to
keep order not to have disorder.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, for me to say
that a particular disturbance was investigated would
be for me to admit that I know of a particular dis-
turbance. All I have is the information given to me
here that the schedule was interrupted and that this
interruption lasted approximately half an hour, and
that stricter supervision over the despatch of Police
patrols is being carried out.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: If there was no dis-
turbance, is it not the duty of the Leader of the
House to tell this House that not only was the delay
not due to a disturbance, but that there was no dis-
turbance at all? That would be a forthright and
honest answer.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I leave it to the hon. member
to decide what is forthright and what is honest. I can-
not compete with him in that respect. I can only an-
swer the question on the basis of the information
which is before me.

Mr. HINDS: I wonder if the Minister can tell us
if he carried out an investigation to find out if the
van driver was involved in the stone-throwing, baton-
tossing and torch-light-smashing?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: No, Mr. Speaker. The in-
formation on the file does not show this.

Mr. HINDS: Now, Sir, has any disciplinary action
been taken in respect of the van driver for his con-
duct on this night of July 23rd?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Assuming that the van driver
transgressed some regulations assuming this, I
would imagine that the question of discipliningwould
come in with the stricter supervision which is now
being put into effect.

Mr. HINDS: Does the Minister know whether or
not policemen have been called upon to pay the cost
of replacements for the torchlights that have been
smashed?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Assuming that torchlights
have been smashed, Mr. Speaker, I do not know this.
That information does not appear.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, is the
Leader of the House prepared to assume that the
hon. junior member for St. Peter did the very thing
which he ought not to do make sure of his facts? I
draw ihe hon. member's attention to Standing Order
No. 12 which says that questions may be put to Min-
ister relating to public affairs for which they are
officially responsible, and that every question shall
conform to the following rules -








1815


Mr. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member purporting
now to put a supplementary question?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am putting a supple-
mentary. I am asking the member whetherhe is sug-
gesting that the hon. junior member for St. Peter
is not prepared to support or substantiate the state -
ments that he has made? I ask the hon. member
again; is he prepared to suggest that the hon. junior
member for St. Peter is not prepared to substantiate
his statement, thus going against Standing Order 12
which says that a question should not contain state-
ments which the member who asks the question is not
prepared to substantiate? (A MEMBER: Behave your-
self, boy!)

Mr. SPEAKER: Let the Hon. Leader of the Op-
position conclude his supplementary. (Asides) i

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am sorry that the hon.
members on my left are speaking. I think that I heard
remarks in that direction.

Mr. SPEAKER: May I remindhon. members who
are not speaking of the appropriate StandingOrder -
that hon. members who are not speaking (Asides) -
hon. members on both sides......

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I am finished, Mr.
Speaker. I was only asking the Leader of the House
whether he was saying that the hon. junior member for
St. Peter was ignoring Standing Order 12 which says
that a question shall not contain statements which a
member asking the question is not prepared to sub-
stantiate?

Does the Leader of the House thinkthatthe hon.
member has come here and asked that question a
question that passed Your Honour and is not pre-
pared to substantiate it? Does the Leader of the
House not think that it is his duty to investigate a very
serious breach of discipline on the part of members
of the Police Force?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, Ihavenot said
that the hon. member did not base his question on
facts. All that I have said was with respect to the
supplementaries asked, the relevant information
does not appear in the files, and I am unable to
assist the hon. member. That is all I have said.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to
hold up this House, but am I to understand from the
hon. member that to question No. 1 he said "yes",
about a half an hour"? I am asking the Minister if
during that half an hour, Mr. Speaker, there was any
torchlight smashing, stone-throwing or baton-tossing

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: This I do not know.
3.10 p.m.


Mr. SPEAKER: I understand that the answer to
SNo. 42 has been laid, but the hon. member is not in
his place at the moment.


FLOODING OF HOMES AT HOLETOWN

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 135 standing inthe
name of the hon. senior member for St. James on page
6, right hand column.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the Ap-
propriate Minister:-

Is the Minister aware that there is wide-spread
dissatisfaction among the people who reside near the
Bridge at Holetown, St. James, because of the con-
stant flooding of their homes after a heavy rainfall?

2. Will the Minister cause tunnels to be con-
structed so as to control the rain waters which pro-
ceed from the inland districts of St. James and other
parishes by way of Trents, St. James, and so put an
end to this great inconvenience and hazard to which
these residents are now subjected?

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: The replies are as follows:

Work on the construction of the culverts has al-
ready been started.

Mr. SPEAKER: I gather there are no more oral
replies laid to questions which have been asked by
hon. members who are intheirplaces. Iwill say this
in respect of the next meeting of the House: I hope
that hon. members who cannot be here, answers to
whose questions have been laid several meetings ago
will authorise other hon. members to putthose ques-
tions for them.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, youwill recall
that when I moved the suspension of Standing Orders,
I said that Question Time and Private Members' Busi-
ness would fall in their natural course. We have come
to the end of Questions for today, and it is for the
other side to indicate whether they wish to proceed
with Private Members' Business and, if so,theycan
indicate it.

Mr. SPEAKER: The first Item under Private
Members' Business stands in the name of the Hon.
and Learned Leader of the Opposition, and it is to
resume the debate on the passing of a Resolution in
connection with the Fiscal Year 1967-68,

When this debate was last adjourned the senior
member for St. Joseph was addressing the Chair -
that was on the 2nd July, 1968.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to know I
am still on the Floor on the 1967 Budget, But before
going any further, Sir, you will remember last Tues -
day that myself and the Hon. Minister of Labour had
agreed to finish what I would call a non-controversial
item on the Agenda relative to the National Insurance.
He assured me that he has all of his data ready. As
it is non-controversial, I would ask leave of the House
before I go on to my proposals, that Item 6 be the
first Item or Order of the Day under Private Mem-
bers' Business.








1816
,~~~~ ~~ (ii ,l ,lh


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: If the hon. member will give
way, I will move that Private Members' Business be
now taken.

Mr. SMITH: Yes.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Private Members' Business be now taken.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move that Item
No. 6 be the first Order on the Order Paper under
Private Members' Business.

Mr. ST. JOHN: I beg to second that.

The question was putand resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

NATIONAL INSURANCE AND SOCIAL SECURITY

Mr. SPEAKER: Accordingly, the first Order of
the Day under Private Members' Business stands in
the name of the hon. senior member for St. Joseph,
and it is to move the passing of a Resolution reques-
ting the Government to review the Regulations rela -
tive to the National Insurance and Social Security Act
for the purpose of protecting those workers who were
qualified at the qualifying period by paying up the re-
quired amount.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the Resolution is as
follows:

BE IT RESOLVED that this House requests the
Government to review the Regulations relative to the
National Insurance and Social Security Act, for the
purposes of protecting those workers who were quali -
fied at the qualifying period by paying up the required
amount, and since then have been disqualified through
no fault of their own;

AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this
House is of the opinion that such people who have been
disqualified through no fault of their own, should not
lose those amounts of money alreadypaid up; neither
should they be called up to work in any form without
enjoying some measure of Social Security.

Sir, this Resolution is asking Government to con-
sider what I would call the snags that have been left
in the Social Security Act. I am asking the Govern-
ment to reconsider them, and I sincerely hope that the
Government will see it fit to do so, because there are
a lot of snags and, I would say, robbery.
3.20 p.m.

The Government is practically stealing the poor
man's money. I am aware, Sir, that you have to pay
up fifty instalments before you can be qualified for


,pension. Ihave afew cases in point, but I will mention
one at the moment. I know a chauffeur who because
of his age was not qualified at all, but he is still
working. The scheme came into operation since last
year, and he was refused because he had reached the
age limit. This man worked last year and is working
this year, and if he were not doing that job, the plan-
tation would have to contribute to a younger man doing
the job, and the younger man would have to contribute
also. This man is willing to contribute, but due to the
age limit he is exempted from the scheme.

Now, Sir, the plantation is benefiting from this
man, but he is losing. I think you would know better
than I do, Sir, that as soon as a chauffeur reaches
that age, he has to have a medical test and get a medi-
cal certificate; otherwise he is struck off. This man
is qualified all around; he got his licence last year
and again this year and is working, but he is not pro-
tected under this scheme. I feel that so long as an
employee can work and satisfy his employer, he
should not be prevented from being protected under
the scheme. This man is working, and the plantation
is making money off him because they do not have to
contribute. The man cannot afford to go home because
he still has his family to work for, and knowing that
his other colleagues are protected doing the same
work, he only remains because.he has reached sixty-
five years. So long as an employee can do his work
as well and as efficiently as a fifty-year old or 35-
year old, I do not see why he should be exempted. The
Government has nothing to lose by it, because both
the employer and the employee would be contributing.
Why should they round it off at 65 years when, speak-
ing under correction, Old Age Pension runs to 68
years? The Government has set the age at 68 years
before you can get the paltry sum of $3.00 a week,
but you have to work and work until you reach 65
under this scheme. That alone shows that something
is wrong. If they were not out to rob, they would carry
it at least to 68, because if it is 68 for one, it should
be 68 for all.

Everybody felt, Sir, that this scheme should have
come about long ago, but we were all thinking in terms
of the old people who could not help themselves, and
not so much in terms of the young ones. The young
sauce-pots would not know about those days when
people worked for 8 cents and 10 cents a day and
sometimes a shilling a day, and had to support a fa-
mily. These are the old people of whom I am think-
ing. I do not think there is anyone on the other side,
apart from one or two, who know about those days.
The Prime Minister would not know about those at
all, because I do not think he was born yet; so in
bringing down this Bill he was not thinking in terms
of those people.

Listening to the programme "Fifty years Ago"
only last week, an advertisement appeared in the pa-
per at that time for a butler, somebody to serve
meals to the big shots, at 60 cents per week. In those
days a pair of white pumps was cheap all right, but
you could not raise the money to get them. A lot of
us used to wear white pumps on the corners of our
mouths, because we were so starvedoutthat the cor-








1817


ners of our mouths became white.In another instance
in the same programme, I think there was a worker
at Clifton Hall Plantation .in St. John who got five
shillings per week. He did something, andtheplanta-
tion manager withheld three shillings out of the five
as a disciplinary measure, leaving him with two shil-
lings. The man left and went to another plantation, but
he jumped out of the pan into the fire. The manager
put him in Court because he did not return to work at
his plantation, and the Magistrate put six shillings on
him as a fine, and told him that it would pay him bet-
ter to go back to the plantation and work. The poor
chap had to do so; otherwise the manager would have
brought him up again, and he might have to pay
twelve shillings.

These are the conditions that these poor people
had to work under. Working for five shillings a week
and having to pay out nine shillings, he would have to
work for two weeks to repay that; so how was he to
feed his family?
3.30 p.m.

Those are the people that I am asking the Minis-
ter to consider. You still have some of these men
working and I would not expect the Minister to get up
in here and tell me that it is the Act, that it is the law,
that it is happening in other countries and all of these
things. He can say that; but if he says it, he is only
going to irritate me and make me do things or say
things which I would not like to say. I am dealing with
Barbados and the people of Barbados, and I do not
want to hear from him.about the people from anywhere
else. I am dealing with the people of Barbados, I re-
peat, and I want to help them as much as I possibly
can, and the Minister or the Government does not
have to put his hands in his pocket and pull out one
cent. They will not have to be creating any charge on
the Treasury. It is the worker who is contributing to
himself, and the employer. In those days we had peo -
ple working for five shillings a week, for six days at
twenty cents a day, and these same people are still
responsible for the wealth of this country, not the
young people. I am not against the young people. Social
Security is a right thing; it is the best thing to have,
but you must not think of the young people and forget
the old ones. The old people are weaker; they need
more nourishment and more protection. The young
people can wear tight pants, but the old people cannot
do that, so that when the young people will take one-
and-a-half yards of cloth to make a pair of pants, the
old ones will take one -and-three-quarter yards or two
yards. That only speaks for itself.

I know that the Minister is going to get up and tell
me about the other countries and where it happened,
that you have to tie off at somewhere, you have to
stop somewhere, there must be a ceiling and all of
that foolishness and all of that tripe. Iam saying that
so long as the employer is satisfied with his employee
and the employee is subscribing to the scheme, the
employer must employ him as long as he can and he
must go on doing so. When you stop a man at the age
of sixty-five years and he goes home, he cannot go
home and sit down, because he will meet a family
there or even himself. He cannot do that as long as


he is able to work, and here you have a Government
or a Minister telling me that you must stop some-
where. Well, if you have to stop it somewhere, I say,
stop it at ninety years. It is not fair that the Govern-
ment is compelling one to go at sixty-eight years, and
it is tying it off at sixty-five. Sir, do you know how
many people can be roped in at sixty-eight years? In
three more years a lot of people can be roped in, peo-
ple who are working like Hades. Are you telling me
that you are going to be satisfied that the plantation
or factory or the employer is benefitting at the hands
of these poor people? If they have to contribute a shil-
ling per week at least to a worker, and the same
worker on account of his age is stopped fifty-two

weeks mean fifty-two shillings; they are saving and
the worker is losingfifty-two shillings andhe is help-
ing to keep the same plantation or factory working so
as to pay out to the others. I say that it is not fair.
Regardless of what the Minister may tell me, regard-
less of what the Act may tell me, there is nothing that
we do in here which cannot be amended. If the Minis -
ter were looking through the same glasses as I am
looking through, and he had passed the same way that
I have passed and I am sure he has passed that way;
he knows more of that type of hardship than I know,
and therefore he is trying to make this House believe
that what I am suggesting cannot be done when you
have a song on the radio saying: "It will soon be done"
(Laughter) Why can it not be done? Why can it not be
amended?

Mr. Speaker, I will quote another case. You have
a man working at Warrens, a man who has been driv-
ing an engine there for fortyyears. He has been em-
ployed there for forty years, and up to this crop he
was still working. When the steam engine came into
operation, he was qualified; he had not reached his
sixty-fifth birthday; he contributed and he is con-
tributing now until he reaches his sixty-fifth birthday.
Now he is calledupon by the employers and told: "You
are finished; we are not contributing to you and you
are not protected anymore." Sir, to make matters
worse, that man might have contributed thirty-six
times, but we have this hard, unfairAct in thelaws,
we have this particular paragraph in the Act, this
thieving paragraph, one which is prepared to steal
the poor people's money and tells you that you must
contribute fifty instalments. This manhad onlycon-
tributed thirty-six instalments. You willbe surprised
to know, Sir, that thisman has been told that he will
not be getting back the money which he has paid out.
You have finished with that, you have knocked him off;
sickness benefits, funeral benefits none of these
benefits. is for him. Why are they keeping this man's
money? If they do not want him any more, if he is
disqualified and this is a Government, it is not a
person who is keeping a little meeting turn or "sou-
sou"; this is a Government which should set an ex-
ample and have sympathy for its people. This
Government by the Act is telling this old man: "No,
not one cent you can get back." If this man had been
taken ill before his sixty-fifth birthday, he was quali-
fied and he would have got his sick benefits. If he had
died before, he would have got his funeral benefit,
but age has caught up with him and everything has
gone. Could anybody call that fair treatment to this








1818


.old man, a man who has been workingfor forty years.
on a'-particular job without moving from it? That
shows you that the man was competent, efficient and
everything of that sort; and now, at sixty-five years
old, the people are still willing to keep him on the
job, whereas this Government has a law on the Sta-
tute Book to penalise this old man when he has con-
tributed his money.

We have to think of the terms and conditions un-
der which these people forty and fifty years ago were
working. These people could not even get a good
breakfast. They did not know anything about a Pyrex
dish out of which to eat. They go to the shop and pay
down before the butter skillet comes out of the shop,
and the crop will start next week or two weeks from
that time. They will say: "Take this ten cents and the
first butter skillet that is empty, I want it to put my
food in for the children to bring to me." People used
to eat out of abutter skillet inthose days. Of course,
the Minister is too young to know that, and very few
of them over there would know it, but that is how
these people had to live. Sometimes when they put
the food in the butter skillet and it reaches its desti-
nation, it is more water than food because they
covered it down tightly and it sweats more than the
Prime Minister when he is ready to sweat in here.
3.40 p.m.

You are going to tell me now that these people
must be chased out and you will not give them back
their money? Now this man paidup 36 contributions.
Suppose they had even called on the man and said
you have to pay 14 contributions more and you will be
qualified, it would still be showing some sympathy;
but he pays 36 contributions. He comes out before his
65th birthday. Call on him to pay 14 contributions.

Call on him to make it right, to fix-it-right. That
should be done. Do not lie back and allow these peo-
ple to go ahead and pay up their money. I say it is
not fair, and if this Government does not do some-
thing in the matter this is something that can cause
them to come down because you are dealing with
poor people people who cannot help themselves.

These people work a whole day, and how they
live I do not know. A man working for 60 a week
cannot live, no matter how cheap things are. He could
not find a suit of pajamas to sleep in. He had to sleep
in the same clothes that he was working in. I can
tell you that, Sir, because you would not know. You
did not have to pass that road.

Why bring about a scheme which will operate
to the disadvantage of these people? It should be
more for them than for anyone else. I would admit
that you cannot see everything in a Bill. In drafting
a Bill you cannot see everything, but after you have
seen it you can amend it. You cannot see everything.
It is just like playing draughts. Myself andthe other
man sitting at the draught board cannot see the stroke
like another person who is watching.

I hope that the Government will not try to shelter
-behind any foolish excuses andtell me anything about


some other part of the world. You have to see that
these people get protection. I know that you will not
be opening yourself to anything because the Minister
may raise the point that if you amend this Act you
may get people coming in at 45 sayingthat they can-
not work anymore so that you may get more 45s than
68s. That cannot happen because you will not accept
that without a medical certificate showing that the man
cannot work anymore.

I feel, Sir, that an amendment can be made to
help these people. I say that because the Government
will not be losing anything. It is the employer and the
employee. Why should the Government go so far as to
protect the employer and squeeze the employee? This
Act only protects the employer.

I cannot see a sympathetic Government doing
things in such a way to squeeze the worker. It is
very wrong indeed.

There is another point which I want to draw to
the Minister's attention. Now, take for instance, you
have boys learning a trade. In fact, this happens at
my garage. The boys are not working for any money;
they are learning a trade; but in order for them to
get to work, I give them a small piece to pay bus fare.

I am not paying them, because they have just
come to work; but it is hard on the parents to find
lunch money and bus fare to get them to work because
the majority are from the country. Some, Sir, are
from St. Lucy. You will pardon me for saying so, but
some are from St. Lucy. My colleague says that the
most are from St. Joseph. Wonder if he thinks that I
will be so foolish as to let the least number come
from St. Joseph. I have some from St. John and from
St. Andrew.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member is not referring
to a member of the House by name?

Mr. SMITH: The parish of St. John.

Mr. SPEAKER: You meant the parish?

Mr. SMITH: I give these boys a small piece so
that they can come to work because some times when
I ask them why they do not come, they say: "My
father and mother did not have the bus fare, and they
could not let me come." Igave them bus fare to help
them come to work.

But what has happened now? You have to take out
National Insurance from that small piece and so re-
duce it. I want the Minister to look into this because
it may be happening all over the island. These boys
are not working for any money. They are not work-
men; they are apprentices. You give $3.00 or $4.00
to a boy to offset his bus fare, and the Paymaster
cuts out so much for National Insurance. I admit that
it will help them because they were payingearly, but
at the same time they are not working for enough to
pay it.
It is only because I amahardold Labourite that
I do not tell them to remainhome. I try to help them








1819


and I have to contribute to National Insurance. I could
tell them not to worry to come out, that I do not want
any more boys. Iwould save the bus fare and the con-
tribution to National Insurance.

Now, a hard person would do that. This Act is
encouraging employers to be hard. Then who will be
hard hit? Not the employer; it will be the boy and his
parents who will be hurt because they will either have
to find the money or keep him at home. When you keep
them at home, they get lawless and bring themselves
into trouble.

All these things must be brought to the Minis-
ter's attention. This Act would have to be amended
to help these people: else everything that you do or
put on the Statute Book, all the levying and budgeting
will hit back at them. All thatyou are prepared to do
will hit at the poorest hardest.

When the Minister gets up, I sincerely hope that
he will not talk what I would call tripe saying that he
cannot agree after I have pointed out allthese things
to the Government. Will he sit back and let people
suffer? Will he let the poor old man at Warrens, will
he let the poor. old man at Mount Wilton work until
he falls down without protection?
3.50 p.m.

The people are still working and doing a good
job. Some of those old boys can still do good work.
Some young people, as soon as they begin. to sweat,
will, sldw down the work. Some of the old people leave
young children at home, who should be working, and
go to work. Do not just tell the people that the Gov-
ernment is responsible; when people are sick they
will get paid, and when they resign, they will get a
pension. Stop fooling the people. The Government has
not done anything yet; the Government has only passed
the law for the people and their employers to protect
them. The Government is not prepared to put its hand
into its pocket; it is for the employer and employee
to contribute and fix-it-right. The Government
merely passed the law, and it should now be amended.

Sir, I am thinking in terms of the poor hard-
working people people who cannot help themselves.
You will find people living in houses that you would
not run the risk of putting a good expensive cow or a
good expensive horse in them. I knowthat some peo-
ple are living in houses in which the Hon. Minister
would not put his race horse. (Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS:
You do not put a horse in a house.) Do you call it a
stall then? Do you call it a stable? Are you so simple
now that you do not know that all is housing? If you
put it in a stable, it will be in a house. It will be out
of the sun, the air, the light and so on. If it is in a
house, it will be just the same. It is only a question
of a name. That is the type of Minister with whom
we have to deal He cannot see right from wrong.
Because it is a stable and I call it a house, he says
that you do not put a horse in a house. I know that
Jack Vaughan had a horse in house. He knows that,
too. One day a woman passed with some mangoes
while the horse was looking through the window. The
woman said: "My lady, do you want some mangoes?"


,He knows that, because he lives in that area. I know
that Jack Vaughan had a horse in a house with win-
dows and so on. A man who has money can do as he
likes. (Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Anything canhappen
in St. Joseph.)


As I was saying, Sir, these contributions the
Minister will have to take into consideration. There
should be no contributions at all. This is a good way
to rob the people. This is just like some Insurance
Companies. Some Insurance Companies, or most of
them, are always ready to take money from you, but
when you have to make a claim they give you all sorts
of trouble before you are paid. The Government should
not follow these private Insurance Companies. Some
of these private Insurance Companies should be sent
out of the country. It seems to me that the Govern-
ment is putting on the same shoe. Why do people have
to qualify themselves by the payment of 50 contri-
butions when they are qualified? It does not look to
me as though you want so many qualifications.It does
not look to me as though you want so many qualifica-
tions to be a barrister or a doctor. You are now call-
ing on an ordinary person to get a lot of qualifications.
You have to get 50 contributions to be of some benefit,
100 for another benefit, and 150 for something else.

Sir, the Minister may tell me that we passed the
law here and agreed to it. He may put it that way; but
when we pass alawandthe Regulations are not forth-
coming, we can get into trouble. The Regulations are
responsible for this confusion. The law may be all
right, but the Regulations are causing the trouble.
Sometime ago I called on the same Minister for the
Regulations with a Bill, and he said itwas necessary
to pass the Bill before we received the Regulations.
Now, you may pass a Bill, but when the Regulations
are introduced you may not get a chance to peruse
them. You may have read the Bill and given it the
green light, but the Regulations can put you in trou-
ble. I believe that these hard-and-fast qualifications
are in the Regulations.

Since everything has been passed, and since I
have drawn certain things to the Minister's atten-
tion, let us do something about the matter. There
are several cases to which I can refer. I know of
an old man at Warrens, and one at Mount Wilton,
and one at Friendship, St. Andrew. It is not every-
body who will come to me on this matter. Some peo-
ple take things easy, although they are meeting it
hard. It is not like the days of long ago when a man
could leave one plantation and go to another. A man
felt that it was the law of the land; he could not do
anything about the matter, and he made up his mind
to die.

Now, Sir, the people have representatives to
represent them, and the first to be given priority, so
far as protection is concerned, are those about whom
I have been talking. Those old people cannot help
themselves any more. They are just waiting to be
called home, and they want a place to rest. While
waiting on the call, they want something to eat and
a place to rest. They shouldbe eatingas good as any-








1820


body else. When they should have been eating, they
were working. Most of these old people can only drink
milk in their tea once a week. On Sunday mornings
they would buy a gill of milk for everybody in the
house and after that Sunday, morning the milk would
be from a "black cow" no milk at all. That is how
these people exist. Sir, do you know that some peo-
ple used to rear fowls, sell the eggs, and buy feed for
the same fowls as well as breadfruit and yams for
themselves? They could not afford to eat the eggs.
4.00-p.m.

These are the people for whom I am making a
plea to the Minister, because he is going to get up
and make the Government's case very clear. He is
going to make all the excuses he possibly can, but I
am appealing to him so that when I go to St. Andrew
I can tell the people how I pleaded with him. If he
goes to St. James, Iwill tell them the same thing and
if he goes in St. Michael, it is worse, because I have
more friends in St. Michael and the City than in St.
Joseph. Wherever he goes I will be behind him tell-
ing people how I tried to convince him about their
hardships, and he has refused when I know it can be
done. There is nothing in this particular Bill that he
cannQt do or agree to. I know well that there are some
Ministers who have to fight like me to get things
agreed to at Cabinet. I know a particular one, poor
fellow, who gets up here and makes a lot of styles
and delivers untruths, and*they do not give him a
hearing because he plays "Joe Blunt", and they keep
him back longer than they would keep me back. I know
how they operate up there, and if they do not open
their eyes and represent the people, the people will
represent them. There are some who get nothing. Sir,
if I get a chance some time, Iwill come for you on a
Sunday afternoon and take you to a particular parish
and show you what is happening and the money that is
being spent; and the poor Minister that is responsible
cannot get anything done in his parish in spite of all
that is done there. Iam not calling names, but I know
these things.

These Ministers, Mr. Speaker, are not getting the
consideration they should. It is not that they do not
want to co-operate; so whenever you get a Govern-
ment operating like that, it cannot work. You know
my old time subject: Lammings. I will soon come to
that. I will await the replies of the Minister and I
hope that he will not give me any ammunition to fight
him with, because I do not know what was operating
in his mind all the time I was talking. I would like
him first and foremost to tell me if he knows about
the conditions that the people to whom I referred used
to endure and how they used to live. If he says he
does not know, I will have to forgive him. There
were no Day Nurseries in those days,and the mother
and father had to go to work to make ends meet;
so the mother had to put the child in a bundle of
trash under the pea trees that grew around the
hedgerows. Those are the conditions that the people
of this country had to endure, and yet these are the
people that are exempted. If the Government votes
against the Resolution, that is their business; but I
am not going to rest. I will bring it again and go all
over the country and preach it. I am not asking the


Government to do anything that will throw them down.
This is not creating a charge on the Treasury; this is
simply amending an Act, and doing a great service
to several people. Anyone who votes against this
Resolution is one who does not know about sympathy
or love, because I am not askingtoo much; it is only
for them to exercise the power that the same people
gave to them, thus showing the people your apprecia-
tion.

Mr. Speaker, I could have waited until there were
a lot more cases like this one before I drew it to the
Government's attention, and then go out and build up
my popularity; but while I was waiting for the Gov-
ernment to fall, the people would be suffering. So the
Government can make themselves more popular by
agreeing to this Resolution, and finding out if there
are any more snags than the one I have raised. If they
vote against the Resolution, they will be confirming
what they have in their Manifesto just making pro-
mises and not doing them. I feel I have them on the
spot, and it is their business to vote for it. If they
vote against it, they would not be voting against
Lloyd Smith; they would be voting against the people
of this country, because they are not in St. Joseph,
St. Andrew or St. Michael alone, but all over the
country. I feel that there should be no limit, but the
limit should be the strength and vitality of the worker.
If they want to put a ceiling, they should carry it to
70 years or 75 years; but in my opinion, so long as
a person can work, he should not be exempted. I know
that the Managers of these plantations are not going
to get rid of a good old-time worker, because he
knows his job and can cut canes better than the young
ones, because he has the experience, and an experi-
enced man is more conscientious than an inexperi-
enced one. If the Government can turn down a
Resolution of this nature this afternoon, it is clear
that they are far from thinking of the poor, down-
trodden people. They would be telling me directly
that it is not true that a man had to exist on five
shillings a week or sixty cents a week. They are
telling me that we have all millionaires, and that
their parents were not poor. This is a Resolution to
test the Government. I would like it to pass; so I will
give the Minister an opportunity to speak because I
have the right to reply. Last Tuesday I took out the
pliers, but today I will take out the gun, not one to
kill I mean my mouth.

Mr. SPEAKER: May I have the assurance of the
Hon. and Learned member for Christ Church that the
book or document which he appears to be reading is
directly connected with the business of this House?

Mr. St. JOHN: You are so assured.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, may I
second the motion without prejudicing my right to
speak later in the debate?
4.10 p.m.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, there seems to be
some question of a point of order here, questioning,
the right of a member to reserve his right of second-
ing a motion for the purposes of debate.








1821


Mr. SPEAKER: There is no problem there at all..
It is perfectly in order for a seconder to reserve his
right to speak later.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, this Reso-
lution reads as follows:-

"BE IT RESOLVED that this House requests the
Government to review the Regulations relative to the
National Insurance and Social Security Act, for the
purposes of protecting those workers who were
qualified" and I should like to underline the word
"qualified" "at the qualifying period", and I
should also like to underline the words qualifyingg
period", "by paying up the required amount, and
since then have been disqualified through no fault of
their own."

I want to deal with that. The Resolution says that
there are people who qualified at the qualifying
period, and subsequently they were disqualified
through no fault of theirs. I want to get the record
.straight. If they qualify, the hon. member, my friend,
my good friend, the hon. senior member for St.
Joseph, should be more specific by sayingwhat these
workers qualified for. Workers qualify for seven
benefits under the National Insurance and Social Se-
curity Scheme. There are Regulations governing the
seven benefits under the Scheme. A worker qualifies
for sickness benefits after having contributed over a
thirteen-week period and having made a minimum of
eight contributions. The hon. member does not ask
why should there be a qualification for sickness bene -
fits. He is talking about qualifications for other bene -
fits, but he does not question the qualification for
sickness benefit. He agrees with the qualification for
sickness benefits because the hon. member himself
knows that in any society and the National Insurance
Scheme is only a society the hon. member was au
fait with the running of a Friendly Society now for
years, and he knows that contributions must be paid
and that a certain number of contributions must be
paid before you can qualify for benefits. If the hon.
member is saying today that he does not agree with
paying up a certain number of contributions for a
person to qualify for a benefit under a particular
scheme, and if the hon. member is sayingthat this is
highway robbery, I am saying that when the hon. mem-
ber was running the "Golden Egg" Friendly Society,
he was indulging in highway robbery then if he told
the people that they had to qualify. There must be a
qualifying period and, as a matter of fact, the hon.
member was robbing me then because Iwas a mem-
ber of the "Golden Egg" Society. If there is a quali-
fying period, there must be a qualifying period. Are
you going to tell a man not to pay the qualifying
period and he makes one contribution today, he feels
that he is going to get ill, he makes one contribution
this week and next weekhe claims sickness benefits
(Mr. St. JOHN: Deal with pensions.) I am coming to
the point. I did not stop the hon. member from devel-
oping his point. He developed his point, he attacked
me, he attacked the Government, and I am replying
now. I am going to take my lashes and I hope that the
hon. member will take his. There must be a qualify-
ing period. As I said, Sir, the hon. member does hot


,question the qualifying period for sickness benefit.
He comes in here with this Resolution which deals
with the qualifying period. He does not say what you
qualify for. (ASIDES)
Mr. Speaker, I would like you to speak to the
hon. senior member for Christ Church to allow me
to develop my point. I was dealing with the word,
"qualifying", the term used by my friend, the hon.
senior member for St. Joseph. The position is this.
My colleague does not like me to say: "My friend"
in referring to the hon. senior member for St. Joseph.
He mentioned my running mate; he wants to amend
the National Insurance and Social Security Act for.the
purpose of protecting those workers who are quali-
fied at the qualifying period by paying up the required
amount. What I want to make clear to the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph and he can consult his col-
league, the hon. junior member for St. Joseph on
this is that when he mentioned the qualifying period,
the impression given is that the same worker whom
he has mentioned from Warrens, qualified for pen-
sion benefits; but he did not qualify for pension bene-
fits. He qualified at a qualifying period for sickness
benefit, invalidity benefit, but he did not qualify for
old age benefit. There are a certainnumberof quali-
fying periods. When you use the word "qualifying",
you must be specific in saying what you mean. I would
like to state here and nowthat the Government cannot
support this Resolutiog as it stands. The impression
given in this Resolution, andthat is why I cannot sup-
port it, is that people qualify at one time and at an-
other time they do not qualify.
4.20 p.m.
What the hon. member fails to understand is that
the person or persons whose case he may be fighting
qualified under the scheme for sickness benefits. I
have to let the hon. member know that Mr. Vaughan
whose name is mentioned, the man from Warrens
Plantation made 39 contributions to the scheme. He
made 11 contributions under Group 6, five under
Group 5, 21 under Group 4, one under Group 3 and
one under Group 2, andthe amount of money that this
person put to the scheme was $38.80.
If during the time he was contributing he had
claimed sickness benefits,he would have been entitled
to a benefit of $361.04 after only having contributed
$38.00. Now, to tell me that because this man did not
receive a sickness benefit because he did not claim
one, or because he has reached the qualifyingage of
65 before he had paid his total of contributions to
tell me that because that happened you should give
him back his funds is like telling me that if you in-
sure your car, because you do not have an accident
you should tell the Insurance Company to give you
back your money or that if you insure your house
and it is not burnt down in a year, you should tell the
Insurance Company to give you back the money you
contributed.
Let us be realistic. You insure against a risk.
The average worker in this country, whenhe contri-
butes to National Insurance, is contributing towards a
risk. He knows that if he gets ill he may not be able
to feed himself, and therefore he contributes towards
sickness benefits. He also contributes towards the
risk of dying and leaving his wife and children,








1822


so that after contributing for the qualifying period
his wife and children will receive survivor benefits.
A woman contributes to National Insurance for ma-
ternity benefits so that in the event she can receive
maternity benefits.

There are several benefits under the Scheme
to which you contribute. You cannot give an isolated
case. I do not care how you shout over there or try
to disturb, you cannot put me off the track. I am going
to make my point and make it well too.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, I think that it is a
reach of the Rules to annou.ie that a man of 65 can
have a child, or a woman for that matter.

Mr. SPEAKER: No point of order and no breach
of a Rule.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: The only person who
could make suzh a suggestion is ths hon. member
who made it. (A VOICE: A village idiot.) I am not say -
ing that he is a village idiot. I am only asking to be
allowed to continue without being disturbed.

The Regulations dealing with National Insurance
were not hidden in the Ministry, but werelaid on the
Table of this House: and if he did not agree with all
these things, he could have brought in a Resolution
objecting to these proposals in the Regulations. He
brings it up now. I am saying that he has no point, and
I know that he is going to agree with rle. What I am
saying is that what Mr. Vaughan qualified for was
sickness benefit.

Now, if during the course of making his contri-
butions Mr. Vaughan had died, his people would have
received a funeral grant. What I am trying to explain
is that a funeral grant is tied to the benefits like sick-
ness benefit, maternity benefit and invalidity benefit.

I am telling the hon. member that there is no
part of the world where a person can qualify for old
age benefit without having made the minimum number
of contributions. The hon. member's colleague, the
hon. junior member for St. Joseph, has been repre-
senting Barbados at the I.L.O., or he has been mak-
ing a contribution to the I.L.O., if he does not object
to my putting it that way, and he knows. I understand -
that was before my time that he was one of the
founders of the Barbados Workers' Union, and he
knows that there are certain International Labour
Conventions which you operate in accordance with.

He knows and he can advise the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph that this National Insurance
and Social Security Act was founded on an Interna-
tional Act and in accordance with the advice we got
from an I.L.O. expert; and he knows also that that
is the criterion on which benefits are paid out in
Social Security schemes all over the world.

There is no place in the world where a Social
Security Scheme is operated in a way in which the
hon. senior member for St. Joseph is askingthat this
Act be operated. There is no part of the world where


a man can make 39 contributions to a Social Security
scheme and then get an old age grant. You can go and
scrutinise and examine all the annals of labour legis-
lation and you will not find it inany part of the world.

Now we are being asked to bring in an innova-
tion in Barbados. There are certain principles which
we have got to go by. Every year there is a con-
ference of the I.L.O., and there are certain con-
ventions which you agree to. Quite honestly, Ido not
see the hardship.

What the hon. member is trying to force me to do
is to explain to this Chamber that the hardship ex-
perienced by his friend Mr. Coward at Mount Wilton
and his friend Mr. Vaughan at Warrens he is par-
tially to be blamed for, because the National Insur-
ance and the Social Security Scheme only started in
Barbados last year and has wiped out the hope of Mr.
Vaughan getting old age benefit from the Scheme.
4.30 p.m.

But had it started in 50's or early 60's, he would
have qualified. That is what the hon. senior member
for St. Joseph is telling me. I discussed the matter
with the hon. member; I told him what my views are
and what my advice was on the matter. I do not think
he was fair in trying to attack me on it, because he
knows that we must draw the line somewhere. He
says that there should be no age limit. What this
means is that at any time a worker can claim Old
Age Pension. Now, where in the world does that hap-
pen? If there is to be no age limit, what is wrong with
a man at the age of 45 saying: "Icannotgetwork; I
am an old man at 45." Another thing that the hon.
member says is that there should be no age limit as
long as the employer is satisfied with the work of
the employee. What is wrong with a man at 45 not
satisfying his employer and the employer saying: "I
am not satisfied with the work of this man; therefore,
he must qualify for pension," if you were to follow
the argument of the hon. senior member for St.
Joseph. The other thing that the hon. senior member
for St. Joseph has lost sight of ......

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I only
want to ask him a question. How many contributions
should have been paid before he qualifies for a pen-
sion?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Fifty contributions
must be paid before he qualifies for an old age grant;
150 before he qualifies for Old Age Pension. Let me
explain the matter. In accepting the 50 contributions
and in accepting the 150 contributions, this means
that we are already crediting the workerwitha cer-
tain number of contributions, because a pension
scheme is normally a 10-year contribution.

In the Civil Service a man qualifies for pension
after ten years, as you are aware, Sir. We have gone
out of our way to assist the worker who comes in at
the age of 62 or 63 by crediting him with a certain
number of contributions. Normally, the worker would
have had to make contributions for 10 years at 50
contributions or something of the sort; therefore,you
I








1823


Vill expect 500 contributions. We are not doing this
Instead of asking a worker, who is 62, 63 or 64, to
do something which would create a hardship for him
by saying: "If you do not contribute 500 contributions
you cannot qualify for a pension," we say: "If you
are in your 60's and you make 150 contributions, we
are crediting you with 350; therefore,youwill then
qualify for a pension."

Mr. St. JOHN: Please give way.

Mr. SPEAKER: I do not understandwhat the hon.
member rose on.

Mr. ST. JOHN: Just to askthe Ministera ques-
tion, with your permission and his, of course.

Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister has already
given way.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, if a person was 63
at the time when the scheme started, it would be im-
possible for him, even if he worked every day and
every week in the year to get to a grant.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, that is
exactly what we have stated. We have gone out of our
way to assist such a person bycreditinghim with as
much as 300 contributions. If the man is 62, all he
has to do is to work for three years and he will get
his full pension, because, he would have made 150
contributions. If he does not make the 150 contribu-
tions and he makes 50 contributions, he will qualify
for an old age grant.

Mr. St. JOHN: If he is 63, what is the position?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: He will make 50 con-
tributions in two years, and he can still qualify for
an old age grant.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: If the Hon. Minister
will be so kind as to give way. I must thank him for
acting like a proper Minister today. I do not mean
that he does not always act like a proper Minister,
but he was willing to give way today. The point that,
I take it, my colleague had been making is: Do you
ever take contributions from a man althoughhe can-
not possibly make enough to qualify? He will reach
65 before he can qualify, and therefore his money
has been taken from him for nothing.

Hon, A. DaC. EDWARDS: The position is this.
Why do you take contributions from the man? You
take contributions from him because he can qualify
for sickness benefits. Even during the last year he
is working, if he makes his contributions andhe gets
sick, do you not see that even after the man is 65
years of age he is still entitledto sickness benefits?
He can get sickness benefits for 26 weeks, although
he might have only made eight out of thirteen con-
tributions.

Mr. St. JOHN: As I understand it, all that Mr.
Smith's client has to do is to get a sickness certifi-
cate and draw out all the money that he paid in.


Mr. SPEAKER: Who is Mr. Smith's client?

Mr. St. JOHN: The hon. senior member for St.
Joseph, Sir.

Mr.SPEAKER:There is really no grave disorder
now. I am rising for a period not exceeding two
minutes, and the House remains in session.
4.40 p.m.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, I am in-
viting the attention of the hon. senior memberfor St.
Joseph and his colleagues to Regulation 11 of the
Contribution Regulations of the National Insurance
Scheme, and it reads as follows:

"Where an employed person attains the age of
sixty-five on a date not more than thirteen contribu-
tion weeks after he becomes an employed person,
then for each contribution paid in respect of any con-
tribution week falling within the said thirteen con-
tribution weeks, he shall after attaining the age of
sixty-five be entitled to a refund of the employed
person's contributions. The application for a refund
pursuant to paragraph 1 shall be in writing ad-
dressed to the office of the Board andshall be made
within three months from the date the employed
person attained the age of sixty-five."

If you were to study this Regulation carefully, you
will notice that if a man made contributions to the
National Insurance Scheme and he did not qualify for
any of the benefits under the scheme, the money is
refunded to him. So obviously within the first thirteen
weeks of his making contributions, if he could not
qualify, there is a benefit forwhichhe can qualify. In
these first thirteen weeks he can qualify for sickness
benefit, and after having contributed only eight con-
tributions the man could have received a little over
$361 in sickness benefit. But he did not claim sick-
ness benefit. The whole intent of the Act is to refund
where a person could not qualify for any benefits un-
der the Scheme. During this time and this man had
died, his estate would have qualified for a funeral
grant; so it is not fair for the hon. senior member
for St. Joseph to come here and say it is highway
robbery. I would say that the man was enjoying good
health, and therefore he did not claim sickness bene-
fit. It wouldhave beenhighway robbery if the man had
qualified for sickness benefits and had claimedthem
during the time he was a contributor to the Scheme,
and did not receive them. Youhave to be contributing
eight weeks of the last thirteen weeks before you
become ill according to the Regulations; so if he has
retired now and has ceased making contributions for
some time, he cannot claim now because he would not
qualify for the eight weeks within the last thirteen
weeks' period.

Let the hon. member ask himself what happens
to a man who takes out an insurance policy for his
house and he did not claim anything. What happens
to all of us who buy motor cars and contribute to
Third Party or Comprehensive insurance, donotget
into- an accident or have a fire with the motor car?
We do not go back and tell the people to let us have








1824


back the money. What happens to the person who buys
an insurance policy from the hon. senior member for
St. James, and after making contributions for two
years and eleven months is no longer in a position to
make any further contributions? It has not reached
the qualifying period of three years, and therefore he
cannot get anything out of it; but he has made con-
tributions.

Mr. Speaker, I shouldlike to let the hon. member
for St. Joseph know that we have gone into this mat-
ter carefully, and I would like to give him some
very pertinent information on this. Following is a
break-down on it. On attaining the age of sixty-five
this man ceased to be a contributor under the Scheme.
You can get short-term benefits if you are a con-
tributor under the Scheme. Old Age contributory
benefits are only one of the benefits payable under
the Scheme. There is a qualifying period for that.
Sickness benefit is another, and there is a qualifying
period for that. All contributions paid under the
Scheme are held in a Fund from which benefits are
to be paid to insured persons as they qualify for
them. Mr. Vaughan, the person in question, could
have qualified for sickness benefit as early as the
4th September, 1967. Up to that time, that was thir-
teen weeks after the scheme started, he had been a
contributor. Had he been employed at the time and
paid at least eight contributions to the period of 4th
September, he could have received sickness benefits
if he claimed them, and he could have got such bene -
fits for as long as twenty-sixweeks. There is another
factor here; he would have qualified for sickness
benefits over and above $361 had he claimed sick-
ness benefits at the time when he was making maxi-
mum contributions to the scheme; but he started
with maximum contributions and then came down to
Group 2. (Mr. St.JOHN: What can he get now?) He
does not qualify for anything under the Scheme now,
because death benefit is conditioned on sickness, in-
validity and maternity benefits. It is the final end of
sickness benefit, maternity benefit or invalidity bene -
fit. The man qualifies for nothing now. The whole
position is that his coverage was a short-term
coverage. He enjoyed the benefits of the Scheme. He
did not claim any benefits from the Scheme, but during
the time that he was under sixty -five and had claimed
any of these short-term benefits, he would have been
entitled to them. (A VOICE: He could not receive
maternity benefits.)

I am never ridiculous to people on the other
side, and I do not appreciate their being ridiculous.
When it comes to telling me about a man receiving
maternity benefits, I think this is nasty. Had he
claimed a benefit before he was sixty-five, he would
have got something out of the Scheme, and he would
have got about 12% or 15% more than what he put in
the Scheme. His money is dead now; so nothing can
happen. Iwouldlike the hon. member to know that this
matter was carefully investigated. You cannot go and
change legislation because of personalities. If you
change the legislation and carry it to 68 years, some -
body will come in here and say he has to work until
he reaches 68 before he can receive a pension when
he can receive a pension when somebody inthe Gov-


ernment Service can receive it at 65. The average
Civil Servant can qualify for a pension at 55 years and
at 60 years compulsorily. Are you going to tell me
to carry a man who is not in the Government Ser-
vice to 68 years when there are more people who
are less able to work before they attain the age of
65 than there are those who are able to work be-
tween 65 and 68 years? I am dealing with the rha-
jority of people; so do not tell me to carry it to 68
when you know it is going to create a hardship on
more people. If this were done, there would be ab-
solutely nothing wrong with an employer telling an
employee when he reaches the age of 62 or 63 that he
is not working well enough andto go home. That man
would then have to sit down for six or eight years
before he could get a pension or a grant if you ex-
tended it to 68 years. There is nobody in this country
who tells you to carry Old Age Pensionto 68. In one
breath you tell me that a man should qualify for a
pension at 60 years, and in another breath you are
telling me it should be 68 years.
4.50 p.m.

It is at sixty-five years now. In one breath you
will tell me that it should be sixty years and that a
man should qualify for a pension at sixty years, and
in another breath you will tell me that it should be
sixty-eight years. I remember on the last occasion
when I dealt in this Chamber with Old Age Pensions
for the non-contributory Scheme, the hon. senior
member for the City was very firm in his conviction
that the qualifying age should be sixty-five years,
(Mr. MOTTLEY: Iwas always firm onthat.) and so
were some other hon. members on the other side.
I think that the hon. senior member for St. Joseph
too, in the last session, got in this Chamber and
said that the qualifying period for Old Age Pensions
should come down from sixty-eight years to sixty-
five years, and now he is telling me to carry it to
sixty-eight years. The hon. member fought that issue
in here, and now he is saying that the qualifying age
for Old Age Pensions should be sixty-eight years.
I would like to bring it down to sixty years. I would
like to see the National Insurance Fund swell to such
an extent that I could recommend to the Cabinet the
reduction of the age. I would like to see the time ar-
rive when we could afford from the National Insurance
Fund to pay pensions at sixty years rather than at
sixty-five. Are you going to tell me that I must bring
it from sixty-five to sixty-eight? That is a big joke.
I know that there are some hardships which workers,
especially those in the sugar industry, will be ex-
periencing.

The hon. senior member for St. Joseph is con-
cerned with Mr. Simeon Coward and those people, and
they will be taken care of later in the year. Pro-
vident Fund legislation will be introduced in another
couple of months' time, and those people will be taken
care of. The Bill has been actually drafted and it will
be introduced in the Legislature inafewweeks' time,
so that they do not have to worry. Sir, I think that I
have said enough in this matter and I think that any
reasonable and rational-thinking member of the
Legislature will agree with me that, at this stage,
you cannot amend this legislation because the more








1825


you amend, the more problems you will see, and we
cannot extent the age to sixty-eight years. If any-
thing, the age should be brought down.

Mr. St. JOHN: Sir, it is impossible for any
draughtsman before a scheme is implemented, to
envisage all of the contingencies which can come into
existence. (Hear, hear). The position is that when
you have introduced a new scheme, there will be
situations which come into existence, which you did
not foresee,but the hardship and the injustice of the
facts necessitate your looking at the provisions again.
This is what has occurred in this case. A number of
people who were between sixty-two and sixty-three
years of age or between sixty-three and sixty-four,
could never have, under the scheme......

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, on a point
of order. The hon. member is speaking about new
legislation by a draughtsman, but this is no new
legislation. It may be new to Barbados, but this Bill
was drafted on other Social Security legislation, and
the Regulations were drafted on Regulations which
were in existence in other countries, and we did this
with the advice of the I.L.O. experts.

Mr. St. JOHN: That answer does not deal with
my point because it is known that in other countries
there are national societies and other welfare bene -
fits guaranteed by the State which supplement the
financial position of people, so that even if they are
not eligible under the contributory scheme, there is
a minimum guaranteed standard of living. The re-
sources of Barbados do not go to that extent. The
only thing which you can get other than National In-
surance if you do not continue working, is the two
pence or two shillings a week under the Ministry of
Health and Community Development's Local Govern-
ment Public Assistance. What I am talking about is
this; it has now been proved that there were a num-
ber of people who, because of their age, when the
Scheme started it was impossible for them to get
the benefit of a pension. That is so. They were eli-
gible for sickness benefits and some other benefits
under the Scheme. This is no new problem in Pen-
sion Scheme legislation. If the Minister were to check
with the number of Schemes in the Department of In-
land Revenue run by the firms, if he checks with any
Insurance Company, he will find that when they in-
troduce Schemes, there is always a Clause to the
effect that if a contributor ceases for any reason to
be a member of the Scheme at any time, he is entitled
to get back at least the contributions which he has
put forward, a certain percentage of interest less any
drawings which he may have had under the Scheme.
Look at the position. The hon. member says......

(Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS rose.)

Let me finish this point.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: You interrupted me all
during my points and Iwill interrupt you during yours.
Mr. Speaker, on a point of elucidation. Thought that
I had explained to the hon. member when this point
was raised, that this is not only a Pension Scheme;
it involves lots of other things. The Insurance Com -


panies run Pension Schemes. This involves other
things, and the point is that it is a question of eli-
gibility of the person during the time that he has
been covered. The point which Ihave made and which
I thought I had made quite clearly, was that those
people mentioned by hon. members on the other
side of the House, were people who were eligible
for benefits which they did not claim. If they were
eligible for benefits which they did not claim, how
can they want refunds? If you pay up money for pro-
tection and you do not claim that protection, it does
not mean that the protection was denied you.

Mr. St. JOHN: Sir, this is not a Pension Scheme.
It is a comprehensive scheme dealing with sickness
insurance also, but this is the point. Thehon. mem-
ber says that if you make a contribution to a private
Insurance Company in respect of a motor car or
whatever is insured and you do not draw on it, you
do not get back your money. That is true. It is be-
cause of the fact that these funds are known as lapsed
funds; it is because of the profit element the exor-
bitant profit element that the Insurance Companies
all over the world can make and I would say that
that is one of the greatest cases for the nationaliza-
tion of insurance.
5.00 p.m.

This is what we say. It is reasonable that that
small proportion of people who would not be eligible
for pension, but who paid up money should have this
concession at least granted to them. You say that a
man would be eligible for sickness benefit, but since
he was not sick, you do not want to encourage dis-
honesty.

The Minister keeps harping on the fact that the
man could have called for sickness benefit; but he
still had to be sick first, and a doctor would have to
say that he was sick. Here is a clear case where you
can prove that this man made his contributions, and
whatever contributions he made are to profit. You
could give him back at least half because you cannot
say that he has amounted to any charge on the Scheme.

There is no contingency element, nothing at all.
Everything is liquid as far as the Scheme is con-
cerned. The contingency element is out, as far as the
National Insurance scheme is concerned and ......

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I wouldlike to give the
hon. member the assurance that I would go into this
whole matter further and there is no need to carry
on the debate further today. I will do anything that is
reasonable for these people. There are only three of
them, and it is only the innovation of the scheme. I
will get in contact with the Director and his staff and
discuss it and see what can be done to alleviate the
position.

Mr. SPEAKER: Well done, would the hon. mem-
ber move......

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move that
further consideration of this Resolution be nowpost-
poned.








1826


Hor., J. C, TUDOR: I beg to se-ond that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with.
out division.

NOTICE OF RESOLUTION

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, the Hon. Min-
ister of Community Development is asking leave of
the House to give notice of a Resolution of which no -
tice could not have been given earlier because the
appropriate file was not present.

Mr. SPEAKER: Unless there is any objection
leave will be granted. There being no objection, leave
is granted. Let the Hon. Minister proceed to give no-
tice.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give
notice of a Resolution to place the sum of $2,163 at
the disposal of the Government to supplement the
Estimates 1968-69 Part I Current, as shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 13whichform
the Schedule to the Resolution.

I also beg to give further notice that I will be
asking for leave to deal with this Resolution in all
its stages today. Copies are here to be circulated.
This is a matter which, I believe, will be non-
controversial. It deals with the furnishing of the
House of the Assistant Medical Superintendent of the
Barbados Mental Hospital.

Mr. SPEAKER: May I suggest that these copies
be circulated and that other business be proceeded
with now, and the feeling of the House be taken when
hon. members have read their documentation.

RESUMPTION OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Government Business be now resumed.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

Mr. SPEAKER: Will the Leader of the House
indicate what he first proposes to deal with now? The
next Order of the day stands in the name of the Hon.
Leader of the House and it is No. 5 under the Orders
of the Day in Government Business. It is to move the
second reading of a Bill to provide for the establish-
ment of an educational institution to be known as the
Barbados Community College and for matters con-
nected therewith and incidental thereto.

Mr. St. JOHN: Before the Minister calls this
Order, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out the po-
sition of some members on this side. The first time
we got this Bill I knowthat because I was checking
the hon. senior member for St. Joseph and myself
communicated on this matter on Saturday. Your Hon-
our's came on Saturday.


We were looking out for this Bill for some time.
As I have said, Your Honour got yours on Saturday
and the junior member for St. George got his on
Saturday. So even on that side some members did not
get theirs before Saturday.

Mr. Speaker, I am appealing to the other side.
This is an important bit of legislation. Lookingat the
legislation itself, I think that we on this side certainly
want more time to be able to cross-check. It does
not give us ready reference to the sources of the
various sections of the legislation.

It is true that the Standing Orders were sus-
pended, but I feel that this is such an important mat-
ter, that more time should be given to this side. There
is no desire of any of us on this side to prevent the
Government from pursuing its plans, but the Opposi-
tion feels that where important measures are con-
cerned, proper time should be given.

This Bill went to everyone on Saturday and it did
not happen at 12 o'clock either. I was on the tele-
phone with the hon. senior member for St. Joseph in
respect of this. It was late Saturday. Iwould be glad
if other hon. members could indicate to Your Honour
what their position was.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I would
like to support that. In my case it was definitely so.
I get a mail on Saturday in addition to the midday
mail, sometimes at 6 o'clock and my copy was by
the 6 o'clock mail.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I am really in
some difficulty to understand the point made by the
hon. senior member for Christ Church. My experi-
ence has been that Saturday is the day when Order
Papers go out. I do not know what part of the day,
but very frequently, from my experience they go out
in time for the midday mail on Saturdays.
5.10 p.m.

That is not the case as it was, say, with the Bill
we had last week I cannot remember what it was -
when we postponed it for a week because everybody
was able to say, which is true, that it was not printed
early enough and members only got it the day before
the meeting, on the Monday. I would think that if we
received draft legislation at the beginning of the
week-end, by Tuesday would be a reasonable time to
peruse it. Hon. members are putting me in some dif-
ficulty.

Mr. St. JOHN: I have the post stamp on mine, and
it was posted at 10 a.m. on Saturday. It was put in
before the last mail was shoved in the box down there.
It comes to my office; it does not go to my home. It
came to me well after twelve o'clock when people
are leaving.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, it seems to
be the wish of my colleagues, on this side of the
House, or a suggestion with which I concur, that I
ought not to press this Bill on the House at this mo-










1827


ment. This is all right-with me, but I would like hon.
members to realise that we view this legislation as
having some importance and some urgency, and
therefore I would like to have an assurance from the
other side that I am going to proceed with this Bill
next Tuesday, or if they can meet me halfway and
decide to come out another day this week and let us do
it.

Mr. St. JOHN: Let us fix the Budget and this
Bill.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Do you want to come out next
Friday?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: No, next Tuesday.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, the Hon. Leader
of the Opposition must learn the art of compromise.
I am willing to postpone proceedingwith this. Can he
not meet this side halfway and come out on Friday?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I will tell the hon.
member why I said no. With reference to the art of
compromise, I got the senior member for St. Joseph
to approach the Leader of the House on these two
questions: this Bill, and the Budget Debate. Trying out
the art of compromise, I asked the senior member
for St. Joseph to say to the Leader of the House -
and he said it this morning and then reported the con-
versation to me that we would be prepared to leave
it to the Leader of the House to say which of the two
he prefers to start with next Tuesday: the Budget
Debate or this Bill. Whatever he says, I will agree
to. That is the art of compromise.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: The Hon. Leader of the Op-
position's intimation was faithfully conveyed to me
by the Chief Whip, although I thought that the hon.
junior member for St. James was their Chief Whip
until last Tuesday. Nevertheless, the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph did convey the message, and
I told him that I did not see my way to accommodate
him then. However, since the hon. member puts it
that way could we settle for this: We will do this
first thing next Tuesday, and then the Budget, but
could we come out at ten o'clock? Let us do some
horse-trading, Mr. Speaker, across the Floor.


Mr. SPEAKER: Yes. In so doing it across the
Floor of the House in respect of ten o'clock, may I
suggest to the legal members, as I cannot descend in-
to the arena, to do a little horse-trading as to that
early hour?


Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker,with re-
spect to the question of the fixing of time, common-
sense would surely tell both the Leader of the House
and the Leader of the Opposition that you cannot ask
a Broadcasting organisation to come in here and have
its'-microphones hanging around on the off-chance that
another debate will have finished. If there is going to
be a broadcast debate, you must have a fixed time
for the broadcast. Commonsense will suggest that.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I take the re-
buke; I am not always known for commonsense. I
think I am known for filial piety, though.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Hon.
Leader of the House must not allowthe junior mem-
ber for St. Thomas to encourage him in naughtiness.
I would have thought that it is obvious that you must
fix a time for the Budget Debate. I would mention to
the House that it would be more convenient to com-
mence it at an hour like four o'clock or any other
hour; Mr. Speaker, 4.30 p.m., perhaps, if the hon.
member agrees.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: As a matteroffact, the hon.
and learned member for St. Thomas may, probably,
have made a mistake here. It would not matter what
time it is done because it will be broadcast in the
Government Programme on the same night or nights,
as the case may be and, therefore, it would not mat-
ter when it is recorded.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker we got
some very sudden andunexpected revelations at cer-
tain times. Our understanding was that the Budget
Debate was going to be broadcast live. Thatwas our
impression. It might have been our mistaken im-
pression, but that was our impression. In fact, Mr.
Speaker, I can say that, in any case, the hours be-
tween 5.30 and 7 p.m. would be interdicted for my-
self, as far as the Budget Debate is concerned. It
would not be easy, if possible, for me to take part at
those times. I was, in fact, thinking that it would
have taken place under Private Members' Business
or at the end, just as the Prime Minister dealt with
his Budget Speech.
5.20 p.m.

At any rate I was not anticipating in any way
having to speak between 5.30 and 7 o'clock on the
Budget.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: The point is this, Mr.
Speaker. If 10 o'clock is going to be inconvenient,
naturally we will have to meet at 12 o'clock; but with
respect to the Budget debate, atwhateverparticular
hour on that day hon. members find it convenient to
start it, it will be all right. The proper arrangements
for recording it will be made; but we were not talking
about that so much as the postponement of this par-
ticular Bill which I accept for next Tuesday; so next
Tuesday at 12 o'clock we will do this first.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I am not too clear on
this point. Is it agreed that we meet at 12 noon on
Tuesday next?

Mr. SPEAKER: If such a motion passes.

Mr. SMITH: I was hearing something relative to
the broadcast and I want to knowfrom the Hon. Min-
ister if our broadcast will be live. Before he answers,
I want him to guarantee the same conditions which
the Government had. The Government had it live and
we want it live. The Prime Minister had it live and
we must have it live too; so I should like to find out









1828


that from the Leader of the House through you, Mr.
Speaker.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, Iwantto make
myself abundantly clear. My understanding of the
undertaking is that the Opposition should have equal
time, that is, the same 78 minutes or whatever it is
which the Prime Minister has. (A VOICE: And the
same conditions.) No, this is not my understanding.
It has never been so and I could not give this under-
taking. The undertaking is that there shall be equal
time given, and certainly the facilities will be pro-
vided for this; but as to whether it should be given
out live at the time they are making the broadcast
was never the undertaking, and I would not like hon.
members to press that on me as I should have to re -
sist it, because it is not my recollectionof the under-
taking.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, if Iwere
a betting man, I would be a rich man now that the
hon. member has sat down, because I was prepared
to bet that he would come in here and contradict what
he promised, and that is why I asked last Tuesday if
he would kiss the Book on what he had promised. I
knew he would back down on it, that being his nature.
What else could we have beenaskingfor but the same
conditions? The hon. member talks about certain fa-
cilities. The word "certain" was never used. We want
all the facilities and all the conditions which the
Prime Minister enjoyed. It was only up to us to say
whether we were going to have one reply or whether
we were going to divide the time between different
members of the Opposition. I would have sworn, I
would have given my life in bettingthathe was going
to go back on his word, andhehas. When hon. mem-
bers on that side try, as they do occasionally, to ac-
commodate the Opposition, like the hon. member who
is dealing with the question raised by the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph who showed a willingness to
give way when we rose, these acts make us wonder
why the Hon. Leader of the House cannot do the same
and do it always. Let him say something that he
means, that is truthful, and stick to it. I turned to my
colleague and told him to listen to the hon. member
going back on it next week, and it has happened.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, with respect to this
question of broadcasting, you gave permission to
bring in the apparatus for the purpose of a live
broadcast by the Prime Minister. I know you cannot
tell these people what to do, but out of sheer decency
I would say that, regardless of the excuse which the
Hon. Leader of the House may want to make now that
we did not specify whether our broadcast would be
live or dead, any living human being who listened to
us last Tuesday would have believed and understood
that we were fighting for the same conditions that
the Government had. I am appealing now to the Hon.
Leader of the House to give the same conditions that
the Government had. Failing to do so, Sir, I am not
threatening him I would not be too nice in my
speech, because it would show that they are still in-
tent on muzzling the Opposition and the electorate
of this country.


The hon. senior member for St. Thomas said on
the last occasion that his speech was not broadcast
live; it was recorded and the person recording cut
off his speech halfway. If ours is recorded, we may
not get anything on the air at all. This is a very
serious matter, and I am asking the Hon. Leader of
the House to take it seriously as I am serious. I
would never expect the Leader of the House to trick
me in any way; but if our broadcast is not live, then
I was tricked, and I would be satisfied that I was well
tricked; but it would not be too nice. This mouth of
mine has no cover, and I would be dirty, because I
would be disappointed. I am appealing to the Leader
of the House not to tell us now that it is different.
Those were the conditions we wanted. C.B.C. is the
property of the people, and they cannot do more than
what the Government tells them. If the Leader of the
House or the Minister in charge tells C.B.C. that he
wants the apparatus here for the whole day and not
to broadcast anything else, they have to do it. C.B.C.
is not like Rediffusion, and we are paying for it
through our noses. I know how the people feel about
it, but the Minister may not know, and the people will
be very disappointed if they do not hear the broadcast
live, and I will stir them up and make it as bad as
possible for the Government. Do not fool me; honour
your promise. Let the Leader of the House give it
to us as we want it. I thank you.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I have been in
politics long enough not to expect generosity or fair-
ness from my political opponents, and I do not mis-
take the sometimes easy manner which exists between
myself and hon. members opposite for any funda-
mental agreement on matters of principle or of
politics.
5.30 p.m.
At the same time, however, if 1 stand in my place in
this House and I say that such-and-such is my under-
standing of an arrangement, I mean that that is my
understanding of the arrangement. I have no interest
therefore, in going back on an undertaking given. I
have no interest in pulling wool over the eyes of hon.
members. So far as I am concerned, if it rested with
me and with me alone, I would televise it.(Mr. HINDS:
And lose your seat). However, in the last resort, it is
a question of fact. It would appear that the majority
of members around this Table believe that the under-
standing was that equal facilities were promised, and
if that is the understanding of the majority and I
say advisedly the understanding of the majority -
around the whole Table, if that is the understanding,
although it is not my understanding, I am prepared
to take that interpretation of it. Therefore, if hon.
members are looking forward to a live broadcast, a
live broadcast they shall have, but nobody could
make me believe that I am mistaken. I still maintain
the right to my private judgment and my private in-
terpretation that the arrangement was that they should
have equal time and no more; but it would be a ne-
gation of democratic principle on my part, if some
other members on this side held the same interpre-
tation that is held by hon. members on the other side.
It would be a negation of democratic principle on my
part to go against that, although I noticed that in my









1829


,case last week, similar courtesy was not givento me,
because a single person could prevent the whole
House from hearing me.

However, Sir, all these are the ups-and-downs
and the rough-and-tumble of parliamentary life. I
have been in it long enough to know, as I said be-
fore, that you ought not to expect generosity and fair-
ness from political opponents, because if you are to
expect generosity and fairness from them, they would
not be political opponents. Therefore, I will let the
matter rest there: and if hon. members say that the
granting of equal facilities was the undertaking which
was given, I am preparedto abide by that, but I main-
tain the right of private judgment and to think that my
interpretation is the one which is right and the rest
are wrong. That is all I would like to say.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, does the
hon. member forget that truth is one by itself, but
each persons' interpretation of the truth he is at
liberty to have?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, if each person's
interpretation of the truth is a genuine one for him,
how can the hon.- member always call me a dishonest
person, a liar or something like that? In other words,
I am no better off in this respect than he is, and he
is older than I am. (Laughteri

Mr. SPEAKER: For a long time now there has
not been any motion before the House.

LEAVE TO DEAL WITH RESOLUTION

Mr. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, the Hon. Minis-
ter of Health and Community Development is asking
the leave of the House to deal in all its stages with
the money Resolution for the sum of $2,163, copies
of which have been circulated to hon. members, and
of which he has given notice earlier today. If leave
is granted, it is my intention to move the House into
Committee of Supply at this Sitting to deal with this
money Resolution in all its stages.

Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the House is
seeking the leave of the House to deal at this sitting
and in all its stages with a Resolution for $2,163 of
which I am satisifed that copies have been duly cir-
culated to hon. members. Unless there is any objec-
tion, leave will be granted. (AFTER A PAUSE)
Hearing no objection, I declare leave to be granted
to the Hon. Leader of the House to proceed with this
Resolution.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and the
House go into Committee of Supply, andthat it be an
instruction of the House when in Committee of Supply
to deal with the Resolution for $2,163.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division..


Mr. EAKER left the Chair, and the House went into
Committee of Supply, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.


SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE 1968-69 No.13

MENTAL HOSPITAL FURNITURE
AND EQUIPMENT

I Resolution for the sum of $2, 163 was called.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, as the Ad-
dendum to this Resolution sets out, this sum is re-
quired for the purchase of basic furniture for the
quarters of the Assistant Medical Superintendent
of the Mental Hospital. The quarters occupied by
his predecessor were unfurnished, but basically
furnished quarters are a condition of service.

The position, Mr. Chairman, is that the resi-
dence known as "Fernihurst" in Deacons Road at
the Mental Hospital until recently occupied by the
Assistant Medical Superintendent of the Hospital, is
being converted to other use, and funds have been
voted for building a new house to replace it. Mean-
while, the Medical Superintendent will soon be going
on leave, and an Assistant Medical Superintendent
has recently arrived and quarters have to be pro-
vided for him. As an interim measure,until this new
house is built for the Assistant Medical Superinten-
dent, it has been recommended that the quarters at
the Mental Hospital recently vacated by the Head
Male Nurse should be used to house this Officer who
is required to live near to the Mental Hospital. The
house occupied by his predecessor was unfurnished,
only a refrigerator being provided, but basically
furnished quarters are required as one of the con-
ditions of service.

Sir, I do not know if hon. members would like
to hear what the furniture will be, but the breakdown
of this amount of $2,163 is as follows:

One dinette set, one side board, one book case,
one Morris set, two Morris chairs, two folding ve-
randah chairs, one coffee table, two occasional
chairs, four divan bedsteads, four spring-filled
mattresses, four headboards for above mentioned
bedsteads, two dressing tables and one gas stove,
amount to $2,163.
5.40 p.m.

This furniture is urgently necessary in order
that the Assistant Medical Superintendent be on the
premises and be able to carry on when the Medical
Superintendent goes on leave very shortly.

I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, just one little point.
I understand from the Minister that the Assistant
Medical Superintendent has arrived. I wonder where
he is living now. I also understood him to say that
the House "Fernihurst" is being converted. I see that
he intends to put this Assistant Medical Superinten-









1830


lent in quarters formerly occupied by the Chief
Male Nurse.

I am wondering if the Minister is doing justice
to this Medical Officer by housing him in the build-
ing of which if I know it correctly one half was
occupied by the Chief Male Nurse and the other half
by the Matron. I am wondering if we are referring to
the same building. Is it the intention of the Minister
to house the Assistant Medical Officer in one half
of the building and the Matron in the other half of
the same building?

As I asked earlier, I want to know to what use
"Fernihurst" is being converted. One other point.
When is the Medical Officer due to vacate the house
that he occupies?

Hon. C. E. TALMA: According to the decision
that has been reached "Fernihurst" is to be con-
verted into a Workshop, at least a headquarters for
tools for the Housing Authority. There are five to six
acres of land. That is the last decision, although I
must say that the matter since then, only recently,
has been under further consideration, and the ques-
tion as to whether or not the Workshop could be more
ideally sited on lands near to the Ministry of Com-
munications at the Pine or some other site is being
further investigated.

This was investigated prior to the preparation of
this Paper. If the Workshop does not go there we
would like to get it for a Children's Home in St.
Michael to get the children out of the Almshouse.
There are many other uses to which it can be put.
It is a lot of land and it is ideally suited for that pur-
pose.

In reply to the question as to where this officer
is at present, as far as Icangather he was at Para-
dise Beach Club. He arrived in Barbados on the 28th
June and stayed at Paradise Beach Club for three days
He is now being accommodated for a few days at a
house provided by the Queen Elizabeth Hospital until
his quarters are ready.

I take it that the hon. member seems to know
more about the Mental Hospital and the quarters oc -
cupied than I do. He seems to be a regular visitor
there; I hope not as a patient. He seems to be very
conversant with the conditions down there.

I would say that it is hardly to be expected that
we would put the Officer at Paradise Beach Club and
then transfer him to the Head Male Nurse's quarters
if those quarters were not satisfactory to him. We
are not trying to push him around. This is a tempor-
ary arrangement and Iunderstand that he is satisfied.
If he is satisfied, I have to be satisfied too.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, this property
known as "Fernihurst" is on the left when you go
through Black Rock and Deacons Road and butts on
the first land ever bought by the Housing Board, now
the Housing Authority, for the siting of wooden
houses. I believe I am right in saying this.


I wonder if the Minister would not go into this
matter. You do not need three quarters of an acre.
Take off land and use it for development purposes.
I do not agree with this idea of making this into a
Workshop. I know "Fernihurst". You can take off
five or six acres of the land and put it into develop-
ment.

The first lot of land bought by the Housing Board
was three acres, and this land adjoins that. I wonder
if you will keep doctors in quarters like these in the
end. I doubt that very much. I believe myself that you
should give further consideration to it. I am not op-
posing the Resolution, but I am asking the Minister to
go further into a matter like this -and also the Min-
ister of Communications who, I suppose, will have
something to do with it.

This is a good house that you will destroy. If
the Minister told me that the house was dilapidated
or broken down I would say yes; but I cannot see you
turning this House into a workshop.

Hon, C. E. TALMA: On a point of order. I am
sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but I made it
clear that a final decision had not yet been taken. I
said that up to the time that this Paper was pre-
pared, that was the intention on the matter and only
last Friday was it considered, and other sites for the
establishment of the Housing Authority's workshop
in particular were under consideration.
5.50 p.m.

I spoke of a site adjoining the Ministry of Com-
munications and Works as one site, and there is an-
other site somewhere at the back of the Harbour
which is not very valuable land; but we want a place
where it will be easy for transportation and haulage
and things of that sort a place that would be cen-
trally located. Some of the Harbour sites will be
vacant for another ten or fifteen years, and it may
be possible to find somewhere suitable there which
could assist in effecting great savings and so on. But
the whole matter is still in the meltingpot. I further
said that I would like to try and secure "Fernihurst"
for a Childrens' Home in order to remove the little
children from the Almshouse there are about a hun-
dred out there, as the hon. member knows. I am trying
to see if I can get "Fernihurst" for a Childrens'
Home, which was the original intention. In matters
like this, there has been shifting all around, but there
is nothing final as yet.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I apologise, and I
appreciate what the Hon. Minister says. I did not hear
what he said about the Children's Home. I knew that
they had been talking about a Children's Home in the
area. You have six or seven acres of land with this
house and, of all things, do not try to convert this
place into a Workshop. You have six or seven acres
of land down there and you can make a Children's
Home there. You do not need a Workshop down there
for the Housing Authority. This is absurd; cancel
this idea; this is wicked. We are not so wealthy in
this country that we could take a home of this nature
and turn it into a Workshop 'I support the Resolution













1831


and I hope the Hon. Minister will consider the ques-
tion of the Children's Home.

You will know that I suffered the fate of having
some people remind me that all the 120 children at
the time of the inquiry into the Children's Ward
should have been with their mothers and fathers. It
is fortunate for some people to have mothers and
fathers, or to have mothers and fathers who would
want to have them. I have done this job for about
twenty-six to twenty-seven years, and I know that
when one man said in evidence that only 10%7 of the
children should be in there, I know it was the most
wicked statement ever made by a human being by
one who did not care anything about human beings.
I thought by now, since there has been a change over,
seeing that I had 120, you would have had only about
20, and you would have found the mothers and fathers
of these children whom I have been taking into my
arms and putting in there just because I wanted to get
votes and get a seat. Of course,those children could
not vote for me.

I see, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister stillhas
them there because he has a soul. At least he is not
prepared to throw them into the gutter and have
them thrown by the wayside to be pickedup. Anyway
he still has 120 children to look after. I urge that you
use this place to provide accommodation for them.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I want to appeal to
the Minister to have a word, if possible, with this
Doctor again on the question of having him housed
in this place formerly occupied by the Chief Male
Nurse. I think I know my Barbadians well enough,

This place has not had any extensions done to
it since the Chief Male Nurse vacated it. What this
Doctor will, eventually, find out is that, the moment
he occupies the house, he is going to be considered
even amongst certain of his staff at the Mental Hos -
pital as just another Chief Male Nurse. (ASIDES
That may sound like a joke to some people, but I know
that this Doctor is going to be sorry if he lives
there. Some of his own friends, when they hear that
he is going to take up residence there, will tell him
not to do so.

If the Doctor is presently housed, however tem-
porary it might be, at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital,
I ask the Minister to tell me when is the other house
which is now occupied by the Chief Medical Superin-
tendent going to become vacant? If this Officer is
presently housed at one of the houses belonging to the
Queen Elizabeth Hospital, unless he is causing some
serious dislocation there, I am asking if he cannot
remain there until the Medical Superintendent goes
on leave and then be transferred. I am sure that the
Minister is convinced that what I am saying is right
in a case such as this. The Doctor is doing himself
considerable harm, and he does not know it now.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: On a point of explanation.
What the hon. member is trying to make out is en-
tirely unknown to me. I have had no intimation what-
ever that the proposed accommodation which we are


going to give this Doctor would be inadequate. I will
tell the hon. member that in matters of accommo-
dation, staffing, discipline and things of that sort,
the Minister does not have that amount of au fait, or
control, as he may believe. These matters are not
directly controlled by the Minister, but I will in-
vestigate this Doctor's case and see that he is made
comfortable.

What the hon. member is speaking about today
is unknown to me. A case is being presented that
this Doctor is dissatisfied. I am not aware of that;
nothing is on the file; no information has been given.
A case is being put forward as though we are doing
this Doctor an injustice, or we will be doing him an
injustice. I am trying to tell this Committee that the
Doctor came down on the 28th; he was put at Para-
dise Beach Club, and that is proof that he has been
properly treated; he was then given a house at the
Hospital compound, and he must have accepted the
accommodation which they gave him.

Anyway, I will have to investigate the matter.
For us to get in here and make a case and start
some -strt of confusion on this, may cause the Doctor
himself to become dissatisfied long before he ever
thought of becoming dissatisfied. That is all that is
going on here now. We are trying to tell the Doctor
that he should be dissatisfied with this accommo-
dation. Let me investigate the matter first, andthen
you can prance up in here if you have a case.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, it was the duty of the
Hon. Minister to investigate the matter before he
came to this House and asked us to vote money for
this item. The Doctor has friends, and very, very
soon the Hon. Minister will be coming back to the
House asking us to vote more money to provide ad-
ditional accommodation elsewhere for the Doctor.
I know what I am saying. I want the Minister to do
justice to the Doctor, and to treat him in a way
which will not eventually cause the Minister to be in
a state of confusion, which he is trying to make peo-
ple believe that the members on this side are in.
That house is no place to put the Doctor. (Mr. ST.
JOHN: Go to England and see where they live.) I
know that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with=
out division.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now report the passing of one
Resolution in Committee of Supply.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. CHAIRMAN reported to Mr, SPEAKER who
resumed the Chair and reported accordingly.

6.00 p.m.

On separate motions of Hon. C. E. TA.LMA, seconded by
Hon. G. .G. FERGUSSON, the Resolution was read a first time
and agreed to.








183-2


Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day, No.
6, stands in the name of the Hon. and Learned Prime
Minister, and it is to move the second reading of a
Bill to amend the Motor Vehicles Tax Act, 1960.

ADJOURNMENT

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, this concludes
Government Business for today's sitting.

I beg to move that this house do now adjourn un-
til Tuesday next, 16th July, 1968, at 12 noon.

The Order Paper having been fixed for Government Busi-
ness.
I expect hon. members opposite will re-arrange
their Order Paper to coincide with their plans for
next Tuesday.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, since hon.
members wish their broadcast to start, I believe, at
4.30 p.m., would this mean then they wish Private
Members' Business postponed until 4.30 p.m.? We
will suspend the Standing Orders to take care of
that. I want to get a clear understanding so that I
cannot be blamed for breaking my word. Is this the
understanding that Private Members' Business would
start at 4.30 p.m. so that from 12 noon we will do
Government Business? (A VOICE: Yes.) Then Order
No. 9 will be the first Order under Private Mem-
bers' Business.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, arising from what the
Hon. Leader of the House said with regard to broad-
casting facilities, if the live broadcast of the Op-
position is going on at 4.30 p.m. andwe are to enjoy
equal facilities as the Government had, this would
mean that we would be entitled to the same prior
announcements that were made for the Prime Min-
ister's broadcast.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: This will naturally appear
in the programme of the Station for the particular
day, and it will be done beforehand.

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: Itake it, andlam being
very careful, especially, as the hon. member says


he does not want to be attacked, that whatever fa-
cilities were given for re-broadcast at night will be
given to the Opposition.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Now, Mr. Speaker, the an-
swer to that must be "no". How could the answer
to that be "yes"? You are speaking in respect of
equal facilities to put out what the other side has to
say in response to what this side had to say. How
could you then ask for another broadcast at night?

Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: All we ask is for the
simple reason that the Government had it, and if the
Government is getting two advertisements, we want
two and not one.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR:I only wish to say this: I want
to make my position absolutely clear. I am a member
of a Cabinet and we are supposed to have collective
responsibility. I have never yet since I have been a
member of this Cabinet ever threatened to leave it,
but if my colleagues give in to the other side on this
point, this will be where they and I would part.


Sir GRANTLEY ADAMS: I think, Mr. Speaker,
all of us would regret that, but I am glad to see,
especially when the cat is away, hon. members can
talk for themselves and have their own feelings..
Surely you do not in a democracy retire because the
majority are against you. You give in gracefully, and
there are few people, if any, in this House who can
give way more gracefully than the Leader of the
House. But our whole attitude is this: it is not demo-
cratic, it is not fair for one side or the other to have
advantages which the other has not got. You can tell
C.B.C. not to reproduce it at night; but if they re-
produce it at night, they are only doing it with your
permission, and therefore if they repeat it once, we
are entitled to have it repeated twice. That is what
I understood the facilities to mean. Whatever the
Government had, the Opposition is entitled to have.

The question that this House do now adjourn until Tues-
day, 16th July, 1968, at 12 noon, was put and resolved in the
affirmative without division, and Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the
House accordingly.


6.10 p.m.






Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 22
Supplement to Official Gazette No. 30 dated 14th April, 1969.


S.I. 1969 No. 64


The Industrial Incentives Act, 1963
(Act 1963-31)
THE INDUSTRIAL INCENTIVES (APPROVED
PRODUCTS) FIBREGLASSS BOATS AND FIBRE-
GLASS WATER SPORTS EQUIPMENT)
ORDER, 1969
The Minister in exercise of the powers conferred
on him by section 3 of the Industrial Incentives Act,
1963, hereby makes the following Order:-
1. This Order may be cited as the Industrial In-
centives (Approved Products) (Fibreglass Boats and
Fibreglass Water Sports Equipment) Order, .1969.
2. The following products of manufacture are here-
by declared to be approved products for the purposes
of the Industrial Incentives Act, 1963:-
Fibreglass boats and fibreglass water sports
equi pm ent.
Made by the Minister this 8th day of April, 1969.



P. M. GREAVES
Minister of Finance.
(M.P. 7018/66/167)





7

'R o




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