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Group Title: Official gazette, Barbados
Title: The official gazette
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Title: The official gazette
Physical Description: v. : ill. ; 33-42 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Barbados
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Place of Publication: BridgetownBarbados Published by authority
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Subject: Law -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Genre: periodical   ( marcgt )
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General Note: Caption title.
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Bibliographic ID: UF00076861
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Table of Contents
    Main
        Page 315
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        Page 318
        Page 319
        Page 320
        Page 321
        Page 322
        Page 323
        Page 324
    Supplement: House of assembly debates for 25th June, 1968
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    Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 21; S.I. 63: Appropriation Act, 1969
        Page A 1770
Full Text












VOL. CIV.


*JIidaI


bartttt


PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY


BRIDGETOWN, BARBADOS, 7TH APRIL, 1969


TABLE OF CONTENTS
Gazette Notices
Appointments to the Barbados Industrial Develop-
ment Corporation............................... 324
Acting Appointment:
Aurora Walters, Supervisor Nurses/Midwives
as Chief Public Health Nurse.......... 315
Consular: Sally Scales as Vice-Consul of the United
States of America at Bridgetown ............ 316
Executoiials: George William Huggins............ 317
Leslie Porte also known as Leslie
Morris................................ 317
Theodora Sobers...................... 316
Income Tax Notice (Year of Income 1968)......... 322, 323
Report on theAudit of the Accounts of the Agricultural
Credit Bank for the year ended 31st May, 1966 318-321
Resignation:
Marcina Hortence Burrowes, Stenographer "A"
Service Commissions Department........ 316
Retirement:
Margery Downes, Seamstress, Q.E.H..,.-... 316
Transfers:
A. S. Howell to Ministry of Health & Community
Development................................ 315
A. S. Inniss to Ministry of Agriculture, Labour
and National Insurance................... 315
Withdrawal:
No. 137 P.C. Keith H. Watson, Royal Barbados
Police Force................................. 316

House of Assembly Debates for 25th June, 1968.

Legal Supplement
S.I. 1969 No. 63: Customs Duties (Gasolene, Lubricating
Oil & Hydraulic Fluid for use in the
Air-Sea Rescue Launch) Order, 1969.







/3 d3,


NOTICE NO. 266

GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Acting Appointment

Miss Aurora Walters, Supervisor Nur-
ses/Midwives, has been appointed to act as
Chief Public Health Nurse, Ministry of Health
with effect from 7th February, 1969 until
further notice.

(M.P. 3658/12)


Transfers

A. S. Howell, Senior AssistantSecretary,
Ministry of Communications and Works, has
been transferred to the Ministry of Health and
Community Development, with effect from 1st
April, 1969.


A. S; Inniss, Senior Assistant Secretary,
Ministry of Finance, has been transferred to
the Ministry :of Agriculture, Labour and Na.
tional Insurance, with effect from 1st April,
1969.


NO. 28


9#t








OFFICIAL GAZETTE
. _q


NOTICE NO. 247 (second publication)


NOTICE

Re the Estate of

THEODORA SOBERS

Deceased

Notice is hereby given that all creditors
and other persons having any claims or de-
mands against the estate of Theodora Sobers
late of St. Stephens, Black Rock in the parish
of Saint Ilichael in.i the Island, of Barbados,
Domestic, deceased who died on the 8th day of
January 1969 and of whose estate Letters of
Administration were granted by the Supreme
Court of Judicature of this Island on the 25th
day of February 1969 to Belfield Padmore the
nephew of the deceased are hereby required
to send particulars in writing of their claims
or demands to the said Belfield Padmore C/o
Charles S. Cheesman at the office of W. I.

Griffith, Solicitor,, at Whitepark, Bridgetown,
on or before the 30th day of June, 1969 at the
undermentioned address after which date the
said Belfield Padmore will proceed to distri-
bute the assets of the said Theodora Sobers
deceased amongst the parties entitled thereto
having regard to the claims and demands of
which he shall then have had notice and the
said Belfield Padmore will not be liable for
the assets of the said Theodora Sobers de-
ceased or any part thereof sodistributedto
any person or persons of whose claim or de-
mands he shall not then have had notice.

And all person indebted to the estate
are requested to settle their indebtedness
without delay.


SDated this 19th day of March 1969.

CHARLES CHEESMAN,
C/o W. I. Griffith, Solicitor,
Whitepark, Bridgetown.


GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Resignation

Miss Marcina Hortence Burrowes, Steno-
grapher "A", Service Commissions Depart-
ment, has resigned from the Public Service
with effect from 7th April, 1969.

(M.P. P. 7052)


Retirement

Margery Downes, Seamstress, Queen
Elizabeth Hospital, retired from the Public
Service with effect from 7th February, 1969.

(M.P. P. 7661)

Withdrawal

No. 137 Police Constable Keith H. Watson
has been granted permission to withdraw
from the Royal Barbados Police Force, with
effect from 17th April, 1969.


(M.P. 3816 Vol. II)


Consular


The Exequatur empowering Miss Sally
Scales to act as Vice-Consul of the United
States of America at Bridgetown in Barbados
received her Majesty's signature on 5th
September, 1968.


(M.P. 9007/1 Vol. IV)


April 7, ,1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE








April 7, 1969 OFFICIAL GAZETTE


NOTICE NO. 267

Re the Estate of

GEORGE WILLIAM HUGGINS

Deceased


Notice is hereby given that all persons
having any debt or claim upon or affecting the
Estate of George William Huggins of
No. 75 Cascade Road, St. Anns in the County
of St. George in the Territory of Trinidad
and Tobago who died on the 15th day of May,
1968 are hereby requested to send in parti-
culars of their Claims duly attested to the un-
dersigned in care of Messrs. Fitzwilliam,
Stone & Alcazar, Lucas Street, Bridgetownon
or before the 23rd day of May, 1969 after
which date we shall proceed to distribute the
assets among the parties entitled thereto hav-
ing regard to the debts and claims of which we
shall then have had notice, and that we shall
not be liable for the assets so distributed to
J
any person whose debt or claim we shall not
'have had notice at the time of such distribu-
tion and all persons indebted to the said Es-
tate are requested to settle their accounts
without delay.

Dated the 20th day of March 1969.

BARCLAYS BANK D.C.O.
Trustee Department
The Executor of the Estate of
George William Huggins,
deceased.


NOTICE NO. 268

Re the Estate qf

LESLIE PORTE

also known as

LESLIE MORRIS

Deceased

Notice is hereby given that all persons
having any debt or claim upon or affecting
the Estate of Leslie Porte also known as
Leslie Morris late of Richmond in the parish
of Saint Michael in this Island who died on the
26th day of June, 1966 are hereby requested
to send in particulars of their Claims duly at-
tested to the undersigned in care of Messrs.
Fitzwilliam, Stone & Alcazar, Lucas Street,
Bridgetown on or before the 23rd day of May,
1969 after which date I shall proceed to dis-
tribute the assets among the parties entitled
theretohaving regard to the debts and claims
of which I shall then have had notice, and that
I shall not be liable for the assets so distri-
buted to any person whose debt or claim I
shall not have had notice at the time of such
distribution and all persons indebted to the
said Estate are requested to settle their ac-
counts without delay.

Dated the 20th day of March 1969.

FITZGERALD DACOSTA PORTE
The Administrator of the Estate of
Leslie Porte also known as
Leslie Morris.


April 7, -1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE









Report on the audit of the accounts of the Agricultural
Credit Bank for the year ended 31st May, 1966


In accordance with the provisions of.subsection 2 of section 17
of the Agricultural Credit Bank Act, 1961 (1961-15) the accounts of the
Bank for the year ended 31st May, 1966 have been duly audited.

2. During the year under review applications from 849 borrowers
for loans totalling $238,769.14-were approved. The actual amounts
advanced however totalled $106,344.85. Repayments in respect of loans
during the year were shown as $138,205.44 and payments of interest as
$15,643.74. These amounts however do not include loan repayments of
$2,174.07 and interest payments of $1,312.61 representing factory collec-
tions of $3,486.68 received prior to the 31st May, 1966 but not credited
to the relevant accounts at that date. In the circumstances therefore,
the accounts do not present an accurate picture of the Bank's operations
during the year with respect to interest received and loans repaid.


An analysis of the Loan Account as shown, is as follows:-


Balances Advances Repayments Balances
Particulars at 1.6.65 during year Total during year at 31.5.66
of Loan ended ended
31.5.66 11.5.66


Owners Cultiva-
tion
Balance of
Purchase Money


Owners Live-
stock
Irrigation
Tenants Cultiva-
tion
Tenants Live-
stock


$ 59,035.47 $ 73,364.00 $132,399.47


411,773.72

93,797.29
10,006.73

21,511.64

10,925.55


300.00 412,073.72


3,145.45


96,942.74


1,500.00 11,506.73

27,299.40 48,811.04

736.00 11,661.55


$70,525.74

23,778.42


$ 61,873.73

388,295.30


16,512.45 80,430.29
375.05 11,131.68


25,178.30

1,835.48


23,632.74

9,826.07


$607,050.40 $106,344.85 $713,395.25 $138,205.44 $575,189.81

4. The position with regard to the Interest Account as shown at the
31st May, 1966 was as follows:-


Interest Account


Balance at 1st June, 1965
Add: Amount charged during year

Less: Amount paid during the year
Amount outstanding at 31st May, 1966


$33,936.66
21,415 90
$55,352.56
15,649.74
$39,708.82


Attention is directed to the comparative increase in the balance of interest
outstanding at the end of the financial year under review. This trend should
be carefully watched and any unfavourable development discouraged.


April 7, 1969


OFFICIAL ~IAZE'I~'L~E







April 7, 1969 OFFICIAL GAZETTE


5. Calculations of interest accrued were made for the purpose
of verifying the correctness of the relevant charges, and as a result
a number of adjustments were effected. The balance of interest out-
standing at 31st May, 1966 with respect to the category of loans under
"Balance of Purchase Money" included the sum of $219.75, representing
accrued interest on eight loans in respect of which the ledger accounts
showed that the principal had been fully repaid. According to the
practice at the Bank, accrued.interest to date is paid on loans at the
same time that the payment of principal or an instalment thereon is
made. No justifiable reason has been given for the departure from
normal practice in respect of the repayment of the aforementioned loans
and in the circumstances it seems that an adjustment in the relevant
accounts is necessary.

6. During the accounting period no request was made for funds
from the Public Treasury as the financial position of the Bank was
considered adequate to satisfy the anticipated requests for new loans
as well as the estimated cost of operations for the year under review.

7. Administrative expenses of the Bank for the year under review
amounted to $59,496.55. This amount'when compared with that for the
previous year shows a decrease of $6,436.50. The main items under
which the decreases occurred were:-

Salaries $1,470.20
Solicitors Fees 1,600.00
Leave Passages 4,415.76

It has been observed that expenditure in respect of salaries exceeded
the approved estimate of $42,200.89 by $86.87; also in respect of
Stationery and Incidentals the expenditure exceeded the approved estimate
of $1,500.00 by $132.08 and that in respect of Pension Contribution
exceeded the approved estimate of $9,765.04 by $695.96. It is again
pointed out that the funds of the Bank should be applied only as sanc-
tioned by the Legislature as shown in the Approved Estimates of Expen-
diture. There were increases of $71.50, $68.57, $803.97 and $210.00
under Wages, Stationery and Incidentals, Pension Contribution and Board
Members Fees respectively over corresponding expenditure for the previous
year.

8. Certificates of Loan executed by borrowers during the year
were examined and these Appeared to be in Order.

9. Advances of salary and wages made during December, 1965
totalled $765.00 and were fully recovered by 31st March, 1966.
Income Tax deductions made from salaries during the month of March,
1966 were overpaid to the Commissioner of Inland Revenue by the sum
of forty-three cents. The overpayment has been included in the total
of $489.51 shown as Sundry Debtors in the Balance Sheet. Of the
amount of $18,152.67 shown in the Balance Sheet as Sundry Creditors
the sum of $9,033.00 represents Pension Contributions due to be paid
to the Treasury, and includes the contribution in respect of the period
of service at the Bank prior to 1st June, 1964 of two officers as men-
tioned in the Audit Report for the previous year. A sum of $27.28
shown apparently as cash surplus in the Balance Sheet for the year
ended 31st March, 1965 has also been included in the amount of Sundry
Creditors.

10. The cash balancee on the Bank of Nova Scotia as at the 31st
May, 1966 was verified to be $6,148.06. The Bank Reconciliation
Book kept at.the Agricultural Credit Bank however showed a balance
of $6,116.86. The difference of $31.20 represents cheques issued


/but not ......







320 OFFICIAL GAZETTE April 7, 1969


b~a not presented for rpament within the accounting period. The
balance ou ouarent Account at the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce
as at 31st May, 1966 was verified to be $145,168.07. The Cash Book
however showed a balance of $143,786.85, the difference of $1,381.22
also representing cheques issued but not presented for payment within
the accounting period. The Balance oa Fixed Deposit at this Bank
was also verified to be $100,00000.

11. The following defects in the accounts as pointed out in the
audit report for the previous year are still evident:-

(a) Certain cash receipts were not entered in the Cash Book
as required by normal accounting practice in that sums
received are lodged to the appropriate Bank Account but
the relevant receipts are written on a subsequent date.

(b) Certain accounts have not been credited immediately as
the cash is received. In the meantime interest is
charged up to the date on which the account is credited.

(c) Amounts credited to certain accounts in some instances
exceeded the amounts received from factories. It was
explained that in these instances the differences re-
presented cash payments made by the borrowers but in the
absence of separate receipts being given to the borrowers,
verification was rendered impossible.

(d) Instances have been observed where accounts have been
credited with sums before the necessary documentary
evidence relating to the collection thereof by factories
had been prepared and refunds have been made in some
cases during this prior period.

(e) Balances outstanding in the Factory Remittances Account
Book and the Fertilizer Account Book have not been
brought forward in detail at the end of the year under
review.

12. It has been observed that in compliance with the recommenda-
tion expressed in the audit report for the previous year as regards the
manner of submitting the final accounts, a single Balance Sheet was
prepared taking into account the overall operations of the Bank for the
year under review. There was also some improvement in the manner in which
the Fertilizer Account was kept and presented for audit examination.

13. A scheme of incentives based on free grants and supervised
loans designed to induce a substantial expansion in crops other than
sugar cane was brought into operation during the year under review.
Expenditure in connection with this scheme was to be met from the
provision of $50,000.00 in the Estimates against Item 7 under Part II
Capital, Head I, for the purpose. The Scheme termed the Farming
Incentive Scheme is administered by a Board called the Farm Board.
This Board administers the scheme for the payment of grants, but the
grants and loans are paid through the Agricultural Credit Bank after
certification and on the advice of such Board. Separate account
books for the scheme are maintained, but expenditure amounting to
$98.00 in respect of a filing cabinet purchased for use in connection
with the scheme were met from the funds of the Agricultural Credit
Bank. It is noted that provision for such expenditure was approved
by the Board of Management of the Bank and included in the Approved
Estimates for the financial year 1965-66.











14. Five applications for grants totalling $1,359.22 under
this Scheme were approvod.by the Board in respect of.pasture de-
velopment:according to the relevant minutes of the Board. The
actual amount paid-out as at 31st May, 1966 however, was $500.00
in respect of one application;. It is observed that Profit and
Loss Account forms part of the accounting system under this Scheme.
It seems that a Revenue and Expenditure Account would be more
appropriate for the purpose and it is therefore recommended that such
an account should replace the Profit and Loss. Account in future.

15. During the accounting period ended 31st May, 1966 an
amount of $12,500.00 was paid to the Bank from the provision in the
Estimates in respect of the scheme.

16. The cash balance on Current Account at the Royal Bank
of Canada in respect of the Scheme was verified to be $2,000.00.
The balance on Fixed Deposit at this Bank was also verified to be
$10,000.00.

17. Copies of the Loan, Interest and Profit and Loss Accounts
together with a certified copy of the Balance Sheet of the Bank as
well as copies of the Grants, Interest and Profit and Loss Accounts
and a certified copy of the Balance Sheet of the farming Incentive
Scheme are forwarded herewith.


SGB: G.B. Brandford
Auditor General,
4th July, 1967.


April 7, 1969-:


"'321


OFFICIAL aAZETTE










INCOME TAX NOTICE

(Year of Income 1968)

Notice is hereby given that Income Tax Returns are required from:-

(1) Every Company, and every person resident or non resident who has
carried on a business, profession, vocation, trade, manufacture or un-
dertaking of any kind, or an adventure or concern in the nature of trade
in Barbados during the income year 1968.

(2) Every person who was in the income year 1968 -
(a) an owner of land;
(b)' as owner of property, other than land, from which as assess-
able income was derived:
(c) a trust or estate;
(d) an individual who
(i). was a married person who wholly supported his spouse,
or
(ii) was a married man whose wife was habitually living with
him,
and whose assessable income, including the assessable income of
his spousewas $1,400 or over in the income year; or

(e) an individual other than an individual described in paragraph
(d) whose assessable income was $800 or over in the income
year.

2. Return Forms

Returns may be obtained from the Inland Revenue Department (2nd
Floor) Treasury Building, Bridge Street, and forms duly filled in must
be delivered to me on or before 30th April, 1969.

3. Every Company and every other person required to file a return of his
assessable income shall in the return
(a) set out the deductions from assessable income that he wishes to
claim,
(b) calculate his taxable income, and
(c) estimate the amount of tax payable by him.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


April 7, 41969










4. Payment of Tax
The tax as estimated and unpaid must be paid as indicated hereunder: -

(a) By Companies
on or before 30th April, 1969.

(b) By Individuals
One half (1/2) not later than 30th June, 1969.
The other half (1/2) not later than 30th November, 1969.

W. A. GITTENS
Commissioner of Inland Revenue.


FORMS TO BE USED BY INDIVIDUALS

1. Short Form

This return form should be used by persons in receipt of income from
the following sources only:-

(a) employment (salary, wages pension etc.) and
(b) interest arising in Barbados.

a brochure has been prepared to assist persons using the short form in
completing returns and estimating tax payable. A copy will be issued with
each form. Please ensure that you obtain a copy.

2. General Form

This return form should be used by all otherpersons. For persons filing
the General Form a Guide has been prepared; this should be of assis-
tance in completing returns and estimating tax payable. A copy will be
issued with each return form.

Penalties

(1) Failure to deliver a return of income by 30th April, 1969, to estimate
tax payable, 5% of tax assessed and unpaid.

(2) Failure to pay an account of tax estimated or that is assessed and
unpaid 5% of the tax due and unpaid or $10 which ever is the greater,

And in addition to penalties at (1) and (2) liable on Summary con-
viction to a fine of not less than $10.00 and not greater than $10,000.


(3) Interest at the rate of 1% per month.


April 7, 41969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE










GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Appointments to the Barbados Industrial
Development Corporation

Pursuant to the provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2 of the Schedule to the
Barbados Industrial Development Corporation Act 1965, the Minister of
Finance has appointed the following persons to be members of the Barbados
Industrial Development Corporation. for a period of three years with effect
from 1st April, 1969.


Senator S. V. Ashby Chairman

Mr. J. S. Patterson Deputy Chairman

Mr. C. M. Tudor

Senator F. L. Walcott

Senator E. L. Ward

The Director, Economic Planning Unit.

The Senior Economist, Economic Planning Unit.

(M.P. 7017/15).



VACANT POST OF FOREMAN, MINISTRY OF
COMMUNICATIONS AND WORKS

Applications are invited from suitably qualified persons for appointment
to the above post. The appointment is permanent and pensionable, and is subject to
medical fitness.

2. The salary of the post is in the scale of $2,880 x 180 3,960 per annum.

3. Applicants should possess a City and Guilds Certificate not lower
than Intermediate Level in Mechanical Engineering or not less than ten (10) years
experience as a first class mechanic and fitter. Previous experience as a Foreman
in a Mechanical repair shop would be an advantage.

4. Application forms (S.C. 21) and full details of the post may be obtained
from the Service Commissions Department, "Flodden", Culloden Road, St. Michael.

5. Application forms should reach the Chief Personnel Officer, Service Com-
missions Department, "Flodden", Culloden Road, St. Michael, not later than 12th
April, 1969.
SERVICE COMMISSIONS DEPARTMENT

10th March, 1969.


Government Printing Office.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


April 7, 71969












THE


House of Assembly Debates




(OFFICIAL REPORT)


SECOND SESSION OF 1966 71


HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 25th June, 1968

Pursuant to the adjournment, the House of As-
sembly met at 12.15 p.m. o'clock today.

PRESENT

His Honour J. E. T. BRANCKER, Q.C., F.Z.S.,(Speaker)
Hon. C. E. TALMA, (Minister of Health and Community Devel-
opment); Hon. J. C. TUDOR, M.A., (Minister of Education);
Mr. J. W. CORBIN; Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON, (Ministerof Trade,
Tourism, Co-operatives and Fisheries); Mr. R. ST.C. WEEKES,
J.P.; Mr. W. R. LOWE J.?.; Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS, (Minister
of Agriculture, Labour and National Insurance); Mr. W. C. B.
HINDS; and Mr. J. B. SPRINGER.


Prayers were read.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL and Mr, HOPPIN entered the Chamber
and took their seats.
MINUTES

Mr. SPEAKER: Once again I have with regret
to state that there are no Minutes available for con-
firmation.

PAPERS LAID

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of
the Hon. and Learned Prime Minister, Minister of
Finance and Minister of External Affairs,I am com-
manded to lay the following:-

Statement showing Net Customs and Excise Re-
ceipts for two months ended 31st May, 1968.

The Customs Duties (The Barbados National
Stadium Corporation) Order, 1968.

The Civil Establishment (General) (Amendment)
(No. 3) Order, 1968.

GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: On behalf of the Hon. and
Learned Prime Minister, Minister of Finance and


Minister of External Affairs, I
of the following:-


beg to give notice


A Resolution to place the sum of $7,619 at the
disposal of the Government to supplement the Esti-
mates 1968-69, Part I Current, as shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 8 which form
the Schedule to the Resolution.

A Resolution to approve the Civil Establishment
(General) (Amendment) (No. 3) Order, 1968.

On my own behalf, I beg to give notice of the
following: -

A Resolution to approve the leasing of a parcel
of land to the Barbados Light and Power Company
Limited for the purpose of maintaining a sub-station
already erected thereon.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to
give notice that Oral Reply to Parliamentary Ques-
tion No. 142, asked by the hon. senior member for
St. Joseph, is ready.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Speaker, I should like
to draw to your attention that at the last sitting I
gave notice that Oral Replies to Parliamentary Ques-
tions Nos. 79 asked by the hon. junior member for
St. James and 83 asked by the hon. senior member
for St. Thomas were ready.

QUESTIONS

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give notice of
the following Questions:-

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

How many applications for permits (often re-
ferred to as Work Permits) have been received by
Government for persons to serve on the Staff of Sandy
Lane Hotel during 1965, 1966, 1967 and 1968 to date?

2. How many were granted? How many if any,
were refused?

3. Who was the "Issuing Officer" in each
case for the years 1966, 1967, and 1968 to date?


_ __








1718


4. What jobs were the Work Permit Holderq
to do in each case in each of the years 1965 to 1968
to date?

5. Were these jobs beyond the abilityor ca-
pacity of Barbadians to perform?

6. What prompted the Issuing Officer to act
in the manner he did in each case?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Is Government aware that a fully satisfied ju-
diciary is indispensable to the progressive and or-
derly development of a newly-independent Nation?

2. What steps have Government taken or pro-
pose taking in the immediate future to ensure sta-
bility, avoid frustration and maintain a fully-staffed
judiciary for the effective functioning ofourpresent
judicial system?

3. Will Government give immediate consid-
.eration to proposals submitted which seek to laythe
foundation for the achievement of the aim set out at
No. 1?

4. If not, will the Government please state
why?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Is it a fact that members of the Royal Barbados
Police Force whose off-duty leave was suspendedor
curtailed during the recent spate of cane-fires have
accumulated in some cases, as many as 13 days
leave?

2. Is it a fact that some members have been
advised that for the 13 days leave so accumulated
they will only be given 3 off-days?

3. If the answer to No. 2 is in the affirma-
tive, will Government take steps to restore full leave
due to all members of the Force or pay full compen-
sation therefore by way of cash?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Is the Minister aware that during the month of
May, 1968, there were outbreaks of foodpoisoningat
schools in the Parish of St. George where school
meals are served and that during the school week
ending 21st June, 1968, there were similar outbreaks
at such schools in the parish of St. Michael?

2. At which schools did the outbreaks occur?

3. How many children were affected at each
school where an outbreak occurred?

4. What action was taken by the Ministry of
Education when notified of these outbreaks?

5. Has the origin or the source of poison been
traced in each case?


6. What steps Government propose taking
before the food-poisoning situation worsens?
12.25 p.m.

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

Is Government aware that the number of drug-
gists presently engaged in the dispensing of medi-
cine is hopelessly inadequate to cope with the needs
of the Island's population?

2. Is Government aware that the list of
Druggists as constituted at February, 1968, does
not present a true picture as to the number of regis -
tered druggists, since some of the names thereon
are of persons long dead?

3. Will Government assist the local Phar-
maceutical Society in ways and means of enrolling
more under-studies to fill the needs of the profes-
sion and assist it in discharging its very grave re-
sponsibility to the community?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

Is it a fact that Orderlies at the Queen Eliza-
beth Hospital have been threatened with discipli-
nary action being taken against them for not
co-operating with a Casualty Doctor during the
month of June, 1968?

2. Has such threat arisen from an Orderly
refusing to switch off the lights in the Casualty De-
partment at about 11.30 on the night of June 3rd this
year as requested by a doctor who soughtto use this
means of getting rid of the numerous patients seek-
ing medical attention at this Casualty?

3. Who was the doctor summoned to the
Casualty Department to attend an accident victim
of motor car L-333 on the night of June 3 this year?

4. Was it the duty of this doctor to attend
other-patients waiting for more than 5 hours at the
Casualty that night?

5. Will the Minister cause an investigation
to be made into the doctor's conduct on the night of
June 3, 1968, in the light of the numerous people
who suffered long hours waiting at the Casualty
without receiving medical attention?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Have examinations of the Scheme and Record
Books kept at Schools receiving the hot-lunch pro-
vided in the Government's School meals Scheme
disclosed any number of lessons or teachingperiods
lost to pupils through teachers and pupils being en-
gaged at school meals during hours detailed for the
teaching of classroom subjects?

2. If the answer to the above is in the af-
firmative, will Government take steps to remedy
the situation by having meals served punctually and
not late lunches as now occurs at some schools?








1719


To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Will Government increase the domestic staff at
all schools now serving school meals to children,
so as to relieve teachers who are willing to assist
in a supervisory capacity, but are very dissatisfied
at their being required to perform purely domestic
chores to assist the Scheme?

Will Government explain if the "packaged
Lunch" served to children in the Government's hot
meals scheme at least two days per week is a hot
meal or a warm meal or a cold one?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

In view of the fact that possession of four
subjects at "O" level G.C.E., instead of five as for-
merly, are the academic requirements for recruit-
ment to the Teaching Service of this Island, will
Government seek without delay to make the neces-
sary adjustments in respect of Relief and Super-
numerary teachers who then qualify for promotion
from List "B" to List "A" of the Ministry of Edu-
cation?

2. Will the Government, upon regularising
the anomalous situation created by adopting this
new qualification standard, seek to place teachers
transferred to List "A" in the corresponding sa-
lary scale without delay?

3. Has the reduction of the academic quali-
fications for entry into the Teaching Service shown
any appreciable increase in the number of persons
applying for entry into the Service?

4. If the answer to No. 3 is in the negative,
will Government investigate to determine if lower-
ing of academic standards or inadequate commence-
ment pay is responsible for the poor response from
persons seeking to enter the Service?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

Will Government seekto acquire an area of ap-
proximately two acres of land at Gill's Terrace at
Speightstown in the parish of St. Peter with a view
to providing a mini-Park and recreation centre for
children resident in and around the Speightstown
area?
To enquire of the appropriate Minister:
Is Government aware of the indignities suffered
by Civil Servants working at Her Majesty's Cus-
toms at the Bridgetown Port by having to submit
themselves to being searched at the gate when pro-
ceeding off duty?
2. Will Government, without in anyway en-
dangering the Security of the Port, take steps to
protect Customs Officers from such harassment?
3. Who holds the keys to the Sheds in the
Bridgetown Port overnight?

4. What control does Government have over
its Customs Departments in the various Sheds and


elsewhere at the Port after Customs Officers take
their exit?

5. Will Government take steps to ensure
more humane considerations and better working
conditions for Customs Officers working in the
Bridgetown Port?
12.35 p.m.

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to
move the suspension of Standing Orders 5, 14, 16,
18, 19, 38, 40 and 45 for the remainder of the day's
sitting. In doing so, I wish to give hon. members op-
posite the assurance that at the appropriate time I
will move that Private Members' Business be done.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Government Business be now taken.

Hon. C.E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with -
out division.

Mr. SPEAKER: The first Order of the Day
stands in the name of the Hon. Leader of the House,
and it is to move the House into Committee of Sup-
ply to consider the grant of sums of money-for the
services of the Island.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and the
House go into Committee of Supply.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with
out division, and Mr. SFEAKER left the Chair and the House
went into Committee of Supply, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE (CAPITAL) No.4

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, as the Ad-
dendum sets out, the reconstruction and rehabilita-
tion of the premises occupied by the Transport
Board is planned in two stages. The first stage in-
volving resurfacing and drainage of the area is near-
ing completion. The supplementary provision of
$226,600 now sought is to implement the second
stage of the plan which provides for new offices and
workshop accommodation.

The provisions under these items in the current
Estimates have been fully committed on the ap-
proved programme of work. The new development
plan will include an extensive programme for the
further development of the water services, and the
supplementary provision being sought is to carry
on the programme pending approval of the full plan.








1720


The supplementary provision of $226,600 now
sought is to implement the second stage of the plan
which provides for new offices and workshop ac-
commodation.

In this Resolution, Mr. Chairman, the Trans-
port Board is asking for money for additional mains
and standposts and the replacement of mains. As all
hon. members here know, the Transport Board
came into operation some time in the 1940s,and the
reason for this, as I have said repeatedly in this
House is that prior to that you had the Liberty, the
Federal and the National and everybody getting into
the spree. People who went to Panama and the Uni-
ted States of America and had a few cents thought
that the best investment was either in buses or a
rum shop.

A number of people had buses, and what hap-
pened was that sometimes you caught a bus at 7
o'clock to go to work and sometimes at 9 o'clock
you were still on the road because the driver was
trying to cut out another driver and he goes half-
way in the journey. Sometimes you caught a bus in
Dayrell's Road and then you found yourself in St.
Lawrence.

That used to go on until the Director of High-
ways and Transport.- it was then the Central Road
Board and the powers that were decided that it
was not good enough, and therefore the bus owners
must come together and form routes, and these
routes were given to concessionaires.

In those days, Mr. Chairman, you had such con-
cessionaires as the Progressive, the General Motor
Bus Company run by Eckstein,the Diamond, the Na-
tional and the Liberty, and these concessionaires
were plying their .trade. Then some time in 1955, I
think it was, the famous statement was made that
"bus fares would be raised over my dead body."

During that time a tyre used to cost about $5
to $6, and an outer case today costs $23.00. Gaso-
line was sold at 23 cents a gallon, and fares were
three cents. Strangely enough I remember when I
was a child and the tram used to run that was in
the early '20s you used to catch the tram by the
Drill Hall. If you go by Bethel Church now, you will
still seethe sign"Cars stop here," and you used to
pay four cents in those days.

I think that we have come a long way, consid-
ering the rapid changes that have taken place in the
last few years and yet still we have been able to
keep them.

In 1955 the concessionaires were asking for a
cent or penny more on bus fares, and it was re-
sisted most strenously, and as a result, the buses
were taken over by the then Government in power.
A part of those who wanted to give them up gave
them up, and the Government then in power became
the concessionaire.

That is something that I have never advocated,
and I never will. Be that as it may, this Government


qame into power in 1961 and we had to take over the
buses which they had taken over in 1955,andno
provision was made for taking over these buses
other than taking them over.
12.45 p.m.

Some of us will remember quite distinctly that
where the Bus Stand is was where the Central Road
Board was. They took over the buses before they
were prepared for them, and they put all of them in
there. Those that could be removed were put on the
road, and those that could not be removed had to be
demolished. As a result of that, we have suffered
a heavy loss in the bus service.

Some time ago I had to come here and ask the
House to write off about $2 million; then we had to
lend them $900,000 and stand a bond for them. As
you will see, Mr. Chairman, the Transport Board
has never, from the day the Government took it over
in 1965 until now, made a profit. The first time it
has ever made a profit since it was in operation
was in the year, I think, 1966, The Transport Board
has always been a liability. It was removed from
Fairchild Street to Roebuck Street, and then cer-
tain suggestions were made that it should be re-
moved to various places. Apparently, it now seems
that it has reached its final resting place at Wey-
mouth. The condition of the yard, as hon. members
would know, was most deplorable. The condition of
the workshop is most deplorable. The reason why I
am here today asking for this money is due to the
fact that the Transport Board has no proper offices;
it has nothing proper other than a few buses and
some good workers. Apart from that, it has abso-
lutely nothing good.

The last time when I came here asking for
some money, we paved the yard and made it better
than what it was. We have now decided to paint the
office at the Transport Board, and that is why I am
asking for money so that we can have a proper of-
fice and workshop for the people who work at the
Transport Board. I know that hon. members on the
other side will want to ask questions and debatethis
matter, because I am asking for a large sum of
money. I am willing to answer all reasonable ques-
tions; I will explain anything that I have not men-
tioned in my speech. I do not want to go on saying
things about the Transport Board. The fact remains
that the Transport Board belongs to all of us, and if
we want to see it succeed, then all of us have to do
our bit. If we do not pull our weight, then we will be
doing what some of the people in this world have
failed to do, that is, to turn back the hands of the
clock. We will be going back to the 1920s when we
used to get a bus at seven o'clock inthe morning and
reach our destination at ten o'clock or ten-thirty.
We do not want to see this Island going back to the
state in which it was in the 1920s and, therefore, I
am asking hon. members to support this Resolution.

Mr. Chairman, with regard to Item 21 Addi-
tional Mains and Standposts, you will know that
water is my pet subject, and I am always admon-
ishing people in this country about the improper
use of water and pointing out how important it is to








1721


conserve water. I have been mentioning it so often
that it has become my theme song. Mr. Chairman, at
the moment there are about twenty-nine million gal-
lons of water in Barbados. Right now we are pump-
ing approximately 16 1/2 million gallons of water
a day. We have more than an adequate supply of wa-
ter for the residents at the moment.

The fact that we are having a water shortage in
certain parts of St. James, St. Joseph and St. Thomas
is that certain people, for some misguided reason
or other, seem to think that the water in the Island
belongs to the Democratic Labour Party and that,
if they waste the water, they are hurting the Gov-
ernment in power. Nothing could be more stupid!
The water belongs to the people in the Island. The
water is pumped from underground sources; we dig
wells; we get water; we experiment to see what is
the draw-down per second; and if the water is good
it is pumped from the earth into a reservoir. What
some people do not seem to understand is that a
bucket cannot hold any more after it is filled. If a
reservoir is made to hold thirty million gallons,
then it cannot hold more than thirty million gallons.
If you cut a coconut, the water will spout out.

Mr. Chairman, when people attach a hose to a
pipe and leave it running all day and night, they are
running the water out of the reservoir. Let us as-
sume that we have over 33,000 services in the
Island. Let us assume that one-fourth of these ser-
vices were to have hoses attached to them and the
pipes are left running all night; it caneasily be seen
that the water in the reservoir will decrease rapidly.
That is why you will find that the people who get
water from Castle Grant Reservoir suffer so much
for water. Castle Grant Reservoir was built in the
days when people like you, Sir, and me were made
to carry a bucket to the pipe in order to get water.
It was not so easy for us to get water.

Not so long ago people paid their mdney to
have water installed, and they had to go around beg-
ging people to instal the water. Sometimes they had
to wait for a year before they could get a connection
made. Nowadays the standard of living has gone up,
and almost every single person is trying to get wa-
ter installed in his home.
12.55 p.m.

Nearly all of us are fighting to get our children
into Secondary Schools and we are getting sophisti-
cated. We do not want our children to be seen at the
pipe with a bucket any more, and there are good
reasons for this. When you go to the pipe, you get
into an argument with somebody over who got there
first, which may end up in a fight or even in the
Courts, and that is where you get a lot of hungry,
starving lawyers preying on the masses. The hon.
senior member for Christ Church need not look at
me like that. I said "hungry, starving lawyers",
and I do not think he would be one of them.

Mr. Chairman, what has happened is that if you
take a place like the Castle Grant Reservoir which
is the most heavily tapped in the Island, that was


built for a capacity of 2 1/2 million gallons of wa-
ter, and was more than adequate for the supply and
demand; but since we have made water accessible
to everybody, it is no longer adequate. When these
people get a notice from the Waterworks Depart-
ment to pay a deposit to have the water connected,
they carry on extra money and go to the store and
pay down on a length of hose which they connect to
the pipe for the purpose of watering. I will give you
an instance. There were two people in St. Philip who
had water installed, and early one morning some
time last month one woman went to her neighbour's
house to get a bucket of water. The neighbour in
surprise asked whether her pipe was turned off, and
was told that it was not, but her husband had told
her not to take off the hose. That is the kind of thing
you get going on. If you had the time to leave here
now, Mr. Chairman, or to go tomorrow you would
find that people have a hose connected to the pipe
watering trees. This is not fair to the community or
to themselves, because I say without fear of con-
tradiction that there is no place in the world where
you can get water piped to you as pure and as cheaply
as you get it here. Hon. members on the opposite
side know this, but they are afraid to tell the peo-
ple when they see them wasting water, that it is
their water they are wasting; but they make it look
when I speak about wasting water as if I am trying
to build up a case against somebody. People will
realise what I am saying is true when one day they
wake up and discover that there is no water. At the
present time we have something like 29 million gal-
lons of water, and we are pumping at a rate of 16.5
million gallons a day. If you want to prove that what
I am saying is true, any day that you have heavy
showers, they stop one pump at nearly every station,
because the demand is not so great. It proves quite
conclusively that quite a number of people are wa-
tering their gardens, canes and trees in the eve-
ning.

Mr. Chairman, I think I have explained enough
on this matter, and I would be quite willing to an-
swer any further questions.

I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to second that.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, the Hon. Minister
seems to be very polite today. The only joke he made
at which I could laugh was when he referred to hun-
gry lawyers. I wonder how many in here are hungry.
Now the Minister tried to make out a case for the
shortage of water, especially in St. Joseph, and said
that hon. members on the other side are afraid to
tell people not to waste water. I wonder if the Min-
ister thinks it is only since he became a Minister
that water is being wasted. Is he trying to tell us
that it is through the wastage of water that we can-
not get any in St. Joseph? The Minister told us that
more water is being used, more is being wasted
through people turning on their hoses at night and
things of that sort, but he failed to tell us whether
he has made any effort to remedy this situation. Do
you mean that Minister knows all this and has not








1722


made a case? How many cases have been made for
the wastage of water in the Island? Can the Minis -
ter tell us how many cases were made out at the
Police Station in St. Joseph?

I can tell the Minister that when I was a boy
people were prosecuted for wasting water, but today
I do not hear of any such prosecutions. The Minis-
ter knows that water is being wasted and expects
hon. members on this side to go around and watch
the standpipes and tell people not to waste water.
He has not referred to the Police or any other limb
of the law, but he has referred to hon. members on
this side who are afraid to tellpeople not to waste
water.
1.05 p.m.

He would not say if he knows that the people
who are responsible are afraid to make cases. It is
only because he can tell us or let the public feel how
he is thinking about members above here, and he
wants us to go around and be pipe-watchers for
him. I am sure that the Minister cannot tell me now
how many prosecutions have been made against
people for wasting water. He does not know anything
about it. As far as I know, none is being made. That
is responsible for our suffering; that is responsi-
ble for the people of St. Joseph to be paying water
rates when they are not getting any water.

In this Resolution, as far as the Minister has
gone, he has not explained anything about this money
for which he is asking, any more than what is writ-
ten here in this note. This is what it says:-

"The provisions under these items in the cur-
rent Estimates have been fully committed on the ap-
proved programme of work. The new development
plan will include an extensive programme for the
further development of the water services, and the
supplementary provision being sought is to carry on
the programme pending approval of the full plan."

This is to carry on the programme, but really
andtruly the Minister should let us know the part of
the programme for which this money is being spent.
He should let us know if it is his intention in this
programmeto extend the reservoir at Castle Grant.
He says that it is too small and I believe it is too
small. Something is wrong up there. It is only early
last year, and if it is not early last year, it would
be late in the year before last, that we were suffer-
ing so badly from the lack of water up there I am
willing to know what has gone wrong overnight, es-
pecially in my area. There is a certain area from
whichwe could never get water and I understand that
it is above sea level or something of that sort; but
around my area and around Parks Road we have
never suffered from the lack of water like that.
Something is wrong, but the Minister is not letting
us know what they are going to do with this pro-
gramme. He asked for the money, he told us about
the wastage and some of everything, yet he may
have forgotten or failed to let us know what is going
to be done. Mr. Chairman, I will tell him what I have
heard I will swear that it is correct that recom-


mendations have been sent up I do not know if it
is to his Ministry or where for a new reservoir
at Castle Grant and it was said that that will cost
too much money. It is a pity that I cannot let the
hon. member know the source from which I got this
information, but for the longest time we have been
suffering up there, and it is getting worse. It has
gone down now to his constituents; it has gone from
us down to his constituency, and nothing can be
done. The Minister has refused to tell us now the
programme, what is going to be done to relieve us
from such a plight. I wonder if he knows. The Ad-
dendum to the Resolution tells us that they are only
carrying out the provisions under these items in
the current Estimates or that the provisions under
these Estimates have been fully committed on the
approved programme of work. I would not expect
him to tell me the approved programme of work,
but I was expecting him to let us know where this
amount of money is to be spent and when it would be
spent. We have been passing money for the longest
time for projects and they have not materialised yet.
This water question is a very serious one. The peo-
ple in St. Joseph have got the idea that I am a reser-
voir. I had to tell them that it is not I; I cannot do
anything. Up to nowthe Minister cannot tell me what
is wrong up there. He should be in a position to tell
the people and me what is wrong. It is not sufficient
for him to say that there is a water wastage. There
was a water wastage before he or I was born. He
should let us know what he is about to do as far as
Castle Grant is concerned. This is a programme
which you are carrying out, and you are asking for
money to carry out the programme. Let the people
in St. Joseph know what to expect. Every time I ask
about water up there, I get a lot of hanky-panky ex-
cuses and a lot of sweet talk, but let us get down to
business. The Minister should tell us:

We have a report from somewhere and we are
either going to build a reservoir or we are not going
to build it, or we are carrying everybody from St,
Joseph to St. Thomas or St. Lucy. The Minister
should tell us what they are going to do up there. It
is not that I am talking for the sufferers; we are suf-
fering and I am one of the sufferers now. I have to
be paying water rates, and still I do not get any wa-
ter. I understand the Minister to say that the was-
tage is responsible for it. I understood him to say
that the reservoir is small; I want to hear him say
that the reservoir is small and they intend to re-
place it with a larger reservoir and some of this
money is to build a bigger reservoir. Let him tell
us the exact thing; do not let him tell us about any
wastage. Wastage is an excuse for little children,
and not for big men. The Minister is lacking in his
duty. He knows that it is a question of wastage and
he should make cases and prevent the wastage. I
will take the Minister to a certain house in Beckles
Road and point out to him that this person is not
hiding to do it at night as he says some persons do.
In broad daylight he can see the hose spouting wa-
ter all round the house.
1.15 p.m.
I am only telling him what is happening; but you
are not suffering from it down here; so people in








1723


Beckles Road, Bridgetown, and St. Michael can
waste it as they like. I just understood that as much
water is used to wash down certain pig pens in a
certain farm that could dry any reservoir. I have
just heard from one of my colleagues he did not
call any name that there are so many things at
this farm that if you start to wash them down it will
dry any reservoir, even Castle Grant.

We do not have anything like that at all in St.
Joseph. The Minister said that he is quite willing
to answer questions. Tell us what is the position at
Castle Grant. More besides, I do not think that I will
be paying any more water rates, because I do not
get any water. I am going to stop paying. Poor me,
I am so unlucky, that the mistress asked the ser-
vant one day to go for a bucket of water and she
said: "I did not come for that." Even the servant
refused to go for it; so you know how I am standing.

The Minister must try to do something.

The other Item is supposed to be Transport
Board. Now, Mr. Minister, you are asking for
$226,600 to provide for new offices and workshop
accommodation. Now, you have reconstructed the
yard and have made it passable. You have finished
that phase of the work. Now you are asking for
$226,600 for offices and workshop accommodation.

Well, Sir, do not think I am trying to be funny,
but when it comes to workshop accommodation you
really shouldhave come to us with a breakdown, be -
cause is it to accommodate the workmen, the buses
or what? Is it to buy tools or what? Workshop ac-
commodation. I would like to know the final plan.

Now we come to offices. Now, Sir, you have
some rat traps running on the road that we call
buses. It is time now that you replace these old
traps and put proper buses on the streets. Now,
don't you think that it would be wiser, if you do not
have anymore money, to take a part of this $226,600
and try to replace at least three or four of these
old things that you have going along the streets?
Are you not ashamed to be a Minister and seeing
these old things on the road? Well, I am not a Min-
ister, and I am ashamed.

Now, you want offices and workshop accommo-
dation. You want this accommodation. As to the peo -
ple down the Harbour Road, down in that bus stand,
it looks to me as if the sun strikes you more fiercely
down there than in any other part of the island -
and the people down there are sticking up in the sun
and waiting the arrival of the bus, and you are going
to spend $226,600 on offices and cannot even, or
would not even, I would say, put a shed down there.

I do not know if you have sanitary conveniences
down there; but I am sure that you do not have shel-
tering accommodation. Really and truly, if I were
the Minister in charge of this and I did not even in-
tend to put up these sheds, I would really put it in
the Resolution; but you are so honest that you do
not even mention bus sheds. You mention that it is
for offices.


What kind of offices are you building now? They
must be really new model offices or something be-
cause the money sounds so much to me. Before you
go that distance, try and take these things off the
road first. I say that because someone may soon
have to action the Board for dropping out of one of
these buses. You have some old buses that must be
from 1940 to 1942 or 1946. There are some old-
time things on the road, and you are asking now for
money to build pretty, pretty offices while the peo -
ple are driving about in rat traps. It is not fair to
the people.

I do not know, Sir everything is Government,
but I am thinking that Combermere School is no
longer there. I think that the Social Welfare Office
has moved out. I am wondering what is being done
with the place that the Social Welfare Office used to
occupy.

Cannot the Government or the Board rent it or
begfor it or do something to make the office right -
fix-it-right for the Transport Board and save this
$226,600 and put the money into new buses?

Well, the Minister would know what is being
done, or what is to be done with the building up
there. You had the Social Welfare Office next door.
I believe that they had moved to somewhere else,
to the old Hospital buildingor somewhere. Can't you
use that for offices? After all, how many offices do
you want for this Department? Do you have an of-
fice for each bus? Do you have a clerk for each bus?
I would think that you would only have an office for
the Accountant, the Manager, the Assistant Manager.
I do not know how many you have up there. This money
sounds a lot to me $226,600.

Now, Mr. Minister, take a look at the buildings
that the Social Welfare Officer used to operate from
and see if you cannot make a bargain for that build-
ing. I do not even think that the whole building is
worth $226,600. I am in agreement that you must
haveproper offices and decent offices for the work-
ers, that you cannot get work done except you have
nice offices; but there are some offices of this Gov-
ernment in which I am sure I do not know how peo -
ple manage to work.

So, I am very glad that you are thinking about
the Board's offices, but you must remember to do
something about the buses. And now, whilst I am on
it, I can understand that you are trying to help local
industry andthat we are trying to keep money in the
island; but if the people that are responsible for
supplying or building these buses cannot supply
them to meet the demand, order at least a half dozen
from outside so as to relieve the position.

Now, Sir, at the peak hours you see people stand-
ing up and buses pulling out and not stopping. You
have about 24 people and you can only carry 2 or 4
and the buses go along and leave people at the bus
poles. It is not good enough at the peak hours.
1.25 p.m.
At the peak hours, wherever you turn, on
Tweedside Road, Hastings, Worthing, Black Rock








1724


and so on, you can see people queueing p waiting
for buses. It is a question of putting more buses on
the road. Sometimes you see a bus going to relieve
another one that has broken down, and as soon as it
takes up the passengers and goes a few yards it
breaks down, too. You want replacements as well as
new engines.

Sir, after an engine has been working for five
or six years continuously, you should not worry with
it when it starts to give trouble. You should get a
new engine and instal it in the chassis; it is the en-
gine that counts. If you have an engine that is giv-
ing you trouble, you should discard it completely
and replace it by a new one. If the body is 'okay'
and the chassis is 'okay', then all you need is a new
engine. All you have to do is to set aside a few dol-
lars,and ask that a survey be made to see the num-
ber of engines that should be replaced by new ones.
You are not buying a new body or a new bus; you are
merely buying a new engine.

If you accept my advice, you will be surprised
to find that you will make money in the bus service.
I shouldn't be tellingyou this because I am a seller
of spare parts and I am doing damage to my trade.
I am honest and I will continue to be honest. I can-
not sit idly by and see money going down the drain
without helping the Government to save its money.
Of course, several bus bodies should be discarded.
Do not put a new engine in the 1946 bus bodies. You
will have to scrap the open bus and put a good bus
on the road.

Be nice to the passengers and try to give them
a bus shelter at the Harbour Road bus stand, or
wherever a bus shelter is needed. It must be remem -
bered that some people have to stand in the sun or
in the rain while waiting to catch a bus; so let us
give them bus shelters. Do not give them a small
bus shelter; let us give them a proper bus shelter.
I am considering a motion for the reduction of this
vote by $1 as a protest against the treatment meted
out to passengers who have to stand in the rain and
in the sun all day waiting for a bus.

The Minister is now asking for $226,600 to
build offices to accommodate not more than 20
clerks. He is going to 'fix-them-right', while sev-
eral people who are waiting for a bus at Harbour
Road bus stand are being fixed wrong. Do not call
this criticism; I merely want to see something done
for the people; but if I have to criticise you, I will
do so. Do not do something to make 20 people happy
and leave 20,000 others unhappy. It appears to me
that this Government likes to do that. The Govern-
ment is looking after 20 people and doing nothing to
help 20,000.

Now, Sir, let us get the bus sheds. The Bank
Hall buses are now back on the road, and you must
give us the bus sheds now. The Minister may not
travel on the Harbour Road, but I have to travel on
that road regularly. Perhaps the Minister goes
above, but I like to travel below. You must see to it
that the people get bus shelters wherever shelters


are needed. Nowadays the people have to queue up,
and this is causing greater hardship. I may be able
to hop a bus and get in quickly, but according to the
law recently passed I will have to queue up and
board the bus. You have made provision for queue-
ing up; so let us make the necessary provision for
the bus shelters. The Minister must certainly go
into this matter.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, this is a very
important Resolution, and you must look carefully
at a Resolution of this nature when you are in pub-
lic life as long as I have been. What I have done
privately, I can now make known publicly. I think it
is public knowledge that the present Minister I do
not throw bouquets out just because I want any fa-
vours done. I have privately complimented the Min-
ister for the stand he has taken in a matter concerning
public property. He put his foot down on some Esti-
mates submitted by his Department, and a private
firm gave an estimate for half the amount and did
the work in half of the time. While I have had to con-
gratulate him for this, let him accept some things
now which I do not understand.

The Minister wants $226,600 and the Notes to
Supplementary Estimates 1968 69 No. 4 state:

"1. The reconstruction and rehabilitation
of the premises occupied by the Transport Board is
planned in two stages. The first stage involving re-
surfacing and drainage of the area is nearly com-
pletion. The supplementary provision of $226,600
now sought is to implement the second stage of the
plan which provides for new offices and workshop
accommodation."
1.35 p.m.

I have been in here long enough, and I do not
think anyone has anything to regret when it comes
to the practice, habit, custom and usage of this
Chamber in asking for information. Now if you come
in here and ask for money to implement the second
stage of the plan which provides for new offices and
workshop accommodation, you should submit the
plan. I have been in here over twenty years, before
there was a Minister and when you had the Execu-
tive, and we have been accustomed to seeing some
sort of plan of what you were doing. This is $226,600
and not $26,000. Rumour has it and it is known that
we lost practically $1 million on the seven-storey
Treasury Building. I am not accusing anybody of
carrying away the money, but it could have been
built for $1 million cheaper, and I commend the
present Minister for the stand he took in seeing that
people do the work. The Prime Minister said that
25% of the money was going down the drain. Are you
then asking us to vote this money to buy new offices
and a workshop at the Transport Board without a
plan, when we know what happened to Combermere
School when it was situated on that site? I remember
that Mr. J. T. C. Ramsay condemned the school
from which we had to evacuate the children, send
them to the Garrison, and then build a new school,
at Waterford. It has been a habit to pass a plan
around to the Opposition, and if the Minister has








1725


not forgotten it, I would like him to pass it around,
as this would avoid unnecessary criticism. I could
launch out and say that you are going to erect build-
ings on land that is sinking, because I am not in a
position to see whether you are erecting a steel
structure. I presume that it is going to be done de-
partmentally, and I commended the Minister for
not doing certain things departmentally when he
saved $100,000 recently. On the other hand, when
you say that the second stage of the plan provides
for new offices, how are you going to ask us to vote
this money without showing us the plan?

Mr. Chairman, hon. members in the Opposition
do not seem to realise what is happening. To ask us
to vote $226,600 without showing us a plan is like
signing a blank cheque, and I urge the Minister to
tell us something more about it. The Addendum to
this Resolution certainly does not provide the neces -
sary facts for the Opposition to see. The Govern-
ment backbenchers may know of it, but members
of the Opposition know nothing of it, and therefore
when you ask us for $226,600 to implement the se-
cond stage of the plan, you must tell us what the
plan is. You should tell us whether you are going to
re-construct or pull down and put up new offices
on a different site. We know the history of the old
Combermere School, and for over twenty years we
have had debates in here on this matter of the sub-
mission of plans. This is not really a criticism of
the Minister, but this is submitting to the Minister
what has happened to the Combermere School, and
saying that it is time we know some of the facts.
How could I vote for this?

Now, Mr. Chairman, I listened very carefully
to the entire part of the hon. member's speech in
relation to Item 2 which seeks $225,745 for the ex-
tension of water supply. Now if thehon. member
disbelieves anything I am going to say, he can turn
to the Minister of Health and ask him this. Any time
you are dealing with a system of expansion of water
supply, if it included standpipes or otherwise, plans
are brought here to show members of this Chamber
what is being done. I do not think anybody would be
so stupid as to oppose the extension of water supply,
but it is the duty of hon. members on this side to
enquire from the Government what they are going
to do, since the Note states that the new Develop-
ment Plan will include an extensive programme for
the further development of the water services, and
the supplementary provision being sought is to carry
onthe programme pending approval of the full Plan.
You must tell us more about this for the simple rea-
son that the Minister knows well enough when he
spoke just now about the supply of water in Barba-
dos, that while I do not want to condemn the sug-
gestion about the wastage of water, I want to tell
him that this is not the sole reason for the shortage.
The standard of living in Barbados has risen rapidly.

One of the things I have been criticised for is
the fact that I refused to bend when it came to im-
plementing or bringing about an incinerator in this
country, because I took the advice of a doctor friend
of the World Health Organisation, as we realized


how much water would have to be used daily with
an incinerator; and that is why I stood out for a
sanitary land-fill. Ninety-five per cent of the houses
being built in Barbados today are carrying the wa-
ter-borne system of sewerage, and therefore it is
not a question now of providing standpipes. Nobody
wants to go to astandpipe today. As soon as a child
goes to school and enters a different environment,
she asks her father for a water-borne system of
sewerage, and when you have that, you know what
will happen. Dr. Senn made a survey here and found
that we could very well supply water from wells in
the sheet water area to the water-borne system of
sewerage, in the absence of any other sewerage sys-
tem, comes from Bowmanston and other reservoirs
and the various wells which we have, and therefore
there is nothing wrong in providing these facilities.

I heard the hon. member talk about providing
greater and more reservoirs. This has to be done
It is not merely a question of the wastage of water
It is a matter that the standard of living has im-
proved :o rapidly in this country that you have got
to provide a greater system of water supply. As the
Note sets out, this is asking for $225,000 for the
new Development Plan which will include an exten-
sive programme for the further devuopment of the
waterservices. To me it is not merely a question of
s. ying that I represent St. John or St. Joseph and
you should tell me whether you are running water
along Breedy Village or Sargeants Village. Every
member of this Chamber is entitled i r kiow if you
have a scheme 'or the extension of water sup-py -
and this has been so for all the time I have been in
here by virtue of a plan which you should supply
to this House where you intend to supply this. If you
are going to extend wai'r in Lodge Hill area or in
the Hillaby area or some oth:.;- place, you do not
want to get a blank cheque and say it does not mat-
ter, you can go and apply it in the Christ Church
area. There must be a plan.
1.45 p.m.

I repeat, if the hon. member, thinks that that is
not so, let him ask the Minister of Health who is sit-
ting just next to him. That has always been so, and for
this expansion, this is what we would need to have. In
these circumstances, I hope that the Minister will be
abi to give a greater detail about the water system,
where do they intend to carry it, if they are building
reservoirs, if there are to be other wells, where do
they intend to sink wells and alongwhat area the trunk
lines will be run. That is not asking for anything
which the members of the Opposition should not know.
The members of the Opposition are entitled to know
that. If you look possibly at the Waterworks Act, you
will see that the members of the Opposition are en-
titled to know. The Minister there could tell you that
we are entitled to know these things. The icefore, I
will reserve any further'comment until the Minister
is ablh to tell us something furTher about this and be
able further to tell us what they intend to do at Com-
bermere, if you ar" pulling down the old buildings, if
you are putting up new buildings, workshop and offices,
what are you going to do at this particular site. Let
us know. We have had a tremendous lot of trouble in








1726


this area ab)ut twenty-two years ago and we should
know what is being done. I am warning the Minister
that unless you have very competent people you might
find yourself in a similar position to what you found
yourself in with the Treasury Building; and I cer-
tainly would not like to see that, because, after all,
it is the taxpayers' money; it is everybody's money.

Would like the Minister to take what I have said
very seriously. Let us know if it would not be better,
with all of these estimates which you have, to adver-
tise this work and get other estimates and let pri-
vate enterprise put up these buildings. Mr. Chairman,
I have always been a private enterprise man. You
will see that you have been saving thousands of dol-
lars and you will save a lot more if you will just fol-
lo'vmy advice. I hope that the Hon. Minister will take
my observations in good faith. I am not being a se-
ver critic at this stage. I hope the Minister will
agree with me that we are entitled to know more
about the offices which he is putting up, that he will
agree that we are entitled to know about the scheme
as to the water and not just say that you are putting
in water. The information in the Addendum to this
Resolution is not sufficient for hou. members of this
House. It is just something wh'ch you might put on
paper.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, the points which
have been made by the previous speaker, and in par-
ticular, the point which he made about the entitle-
ment of the members of this side of the House to
greater information, is unquestionably a valid point.
He has also said that it is not a question so much of
where you are going to put water or where you are
going to run buses and things of thai kind. Now that
the Government has taken over all aspects of Local
Government, it is on the floor of the House of Assem-
bly where what one would previously call parochial
politics and pa-,chial matters must come. Under the
Item "Transport Board", I have been checking the
reports of the Statutory Boards and I have discovered
that the last Report of the Transport Board to this
Legislature, as far as I know, is for '.he financial year
1964-65. That is the one which was circulated in the
Official. Gazette either this week or last week. It was
the last one and that came with the Official Gazette
last week. Mr. Chairman, that could hardly be a sa-
tisfactory state of affairs because we are in the year
1968 and this is a Statutory Board in which the Gov-
ernment has invested a tremendous amount of capital,
and therefore the Legislature is entitled to ]mow about
its operations.

The last Report I have, I have checked. It is not
a cyclo-styled copy; it is a printed copy for 1he fi-
nanc.ial yea. ending 30th September, 1965, which
would have been presented with the Director's Re-
port in 1966; but, in any event, and under the law,
within six months they should send in a Report to the
Cabinet which should be circulated to the public
through the Legislature. At the Estimates time I
raised certain questions in respect of the bus ser-
vice from the Silver Sands area to Bridgetown and the
Hon. Minister, in replying, said that he had been up
there and he had seen three buses at one time; but the


position is that the service in that area is totally in-
adequate to cater to the demands of the service. It is
one of the most remunerative routes. The service
from Silver Sands to Bridgetown particularly on
mornings between 7 o'clock and 9 o'clock, is not suf-
ficient and it is now that we must draw this matter
to the Minister's attention. I know that they are get-
ting some new buses, but my understanding of the po-
sition is that when the new buses are delivered, as
soon as you deliver two or three, there are some old
ones which are so unserviceable that the Directors
find it necessary to take out the old ones and replace
them with the new ones, so that in effect, what you
were getting is not the net gain of the amount of pas-
senger seats available that is necessary to cope with
the traffic. A true indication of the inadequacy of the
bus service, not only on that route but also on the St.
James route, is the number of pick-ups and other al-
ternative means of transport that you get at your dis-
posal. In the last Report of the Transport Board, there
were complaints about the number of competitive ve-
hicles or about the competition which the Board was
facingfrom these vehicles. In order to survive, these
vehicles must be getting passengers: and the true
position is that if the Transport Board had the equip-
ment at its disposal to run an adequate service, peo-
ple would prefer to travel in the comfort of the buses
of the Tra-sport Board than in these pick-ups.
1.55 p.m.

To say or suggest that the service is adequate
on these routes is, in my opinion, to make a sugges-
tion which bears no relation whatever to the facts.
Now, Sir, if we had up-to-date Reports of the Direc-
tor annexed, even if he did not have a detailed archi-
tectural plan we want to see what the building
would look like.

Now, Sir, as regards to water, there is an area
between Seawell main road and Providence, a branch
road that goes to the Police Training School. There
is an arrow on that road which indicates Seawell
Airport. If there is a road that needs a main, it is
that road. For the last three years fires have been
sweeping down by that road. Sometimes there are
burning canes. Once they let go a flare at the Air-
port because the Tower wanted to draw attention to
some small aircraft, and the flare caused a fire.

Because of cane fires taking place every day,
and because there are a number of chattel houses in
the area, people have to take steps to protect their
houses, and the people have a sense of insecurity. I
understand that the Minister has visited the area,
and I take it that he invited the Minister of Health to
come along with him. I take it that he must 'ha/e had
complaints from people in the area,

Now we have Edey Village in the back. There
again and at the Ridge you get cane fires sweeping
down. These are major highways to Seawell Airport.
Every year it happens. In Edey Village, it is known
that there was a gentleman who set fires year after
year, and all that happened was that he goes down to
the Mental Hospital. He is a sick man. I am suggest-
ing to the Minister that it is absolutely necessary
that conditions in Edey Village be investigated.









1727


Iwo ald really like to know what machinery there
is in the Ministry for receiving suggestions as to
where mains are needed. Under Local Government
you used to go to the Councils.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairmaa, I beg to
move that Your Honour do now report progress and
ask for leave to sit again.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.
Mr. CHAIRMAN reported progress to Mr. SPEAKER whore-
sumed the Chair and reported accordingly.

SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Hon.J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this sitting be now suspended for one hour.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER suspended the sitting accord-
ingly.

2.05 p.m.

On resumption:

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Question Time be now taken for half an hour.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second hdat.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

QUESTION TIME

Mr. SPEAKER: There are certain questions
which were not put earlier today because of certain
reasons, and I am prepared to allow these questions
now to be put either by the hon. members in whise
names they stand on my Notice Paper, or any other
hon. member who has been authorised to give notice
of same.

On my Notice Paper I see that there stands in
the name of the hon. and Learned senior member
for Christ Church, the Deputy Leader of the OppoI -
tion a question in connection with Civil Servants
servings Directors in Commerce. Tha: hon. mem-
ber is n:w in his place.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the
Prime Min'ster and Minister of Finance:

1. Willthe MJinstee state whether there are
any General Orders and/or Regulations or Admin-
istrative directions relating to Civil Servants being
appointed as directors of:

(a) Public Companies in which the Govern-


ment is
(b)
ment is


not a shareholder
Private Companies in which the Govern-
not a sharchclder


If the answer to the above is "No", will the
Minister state whether Government intends to pass
any such regulations.

2. What is Government's policy in relation
to such appointments of Civil Servants by such com-
panies?


3.
Servants
Minister
of:


Will the Minister state whether any civil
have applied to the Prime Minister and
of Finance for permission to be directors


(a) Public Companies in which the Govern-
ment is not a shareholder.

(b) Private Companies in which the Govern-
ment is not a shareholder.

4. Will the Minister state whether permis-
sion has been granted to any civil Servant or ser-
vants above the post of senior Clerk, and if so, what
post or posts are held by such civil servants and
in which department of Government?

5. Will the Minister state what criteria are
taken into account in granting such permission?

6. Willthe Minister state if any of the above
have applied to the Public Service Commission for*"
such permission?

To enquire of the Minister of Communications
and Works:

1. Willthe Minister state what sum of money
was received from the Southern District Council in
respect of licensing fees for motor cars and other
vehicles licensed in the parish of Christ Church in
respect of the financial years 1966-67 1967-68?

2. Will the Minister state how much money
is estimated to be received from the said parish in
respect of the said licensing fees for the financial
year 1968-69?

3. Will the Minister state how much money
was expended in the construction, maintenance and/
or upkeep of roads in the parish of Christ Church in
the financial years 1966-67, 1967-68 in respect of
those roads which were taken over from the Southern
District Council by the Central Government?

4. Will the Minister state how much money
is proposed to be expended in the parish of Christ
Church on roads taken over from theSouthernDis-
trict Council by the Central Government in the fi-
nancial year 1968-69?

To enquire of the Minister of Communications
and Works:

1. Will the Minister state what sums of
money were expended in the parish of Christ Church
by the Central Government on street lighting in the
financial year 1967-68? If any sum was expended,









1728


will the Minister state whether any new lights were,
installed?

2. Will the Minister state what sums it is
proposedto expend inthe parish of Christ Church in
the financial year 1968-69 on street lighting and
how many new lights and where these lights are pro-
posed to be installed? If any, and on what basis is
the selection made?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

Is the Minister aware that the roads known as
Carters Gap Road, Rawlins Road and the subsidiary
roads in the Silver Sands-Carter Gap area are in a
bad state of disrepair: Will the Minister state whe-
ther the Government proposes to repair the said
roads and if so when?

2. Is the Minister aware that there are a
number of tenantry roads in the Gall Hill and Lodge
Road area in the parish of Christ Church which are
unsurfaced and unpavedand expose the users thereof
to great inconvenience especially in the rainy sea-
son: Will the Minister state whether the Government
proposes to pave the said roads and drain the same
properly?

3. If the answer to the above is in the affir-
mative, will the Minister state in what financial
year?

4. Will the Minister state whether his Min-
istry or any other Ministry of Government has called
on any tenantry owners to pave and properly drain
any roads in the parish of Christ Church pursuant
to the Law of this Island under the Public Health
Acts, since the take-over of Public Health and Roads
by the Central Government?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

1. Is the Minister aware that there is a large
tenantry situated between the St. Lawrence School
and Harmony Hall and abutting on the St. Lawrence
Bridgetown Oistin main road in which there are no
proper roads or drainage?

2. Will the Minister state whether it is Gov-
ernment's intention to properly pave and drain the
said roads? If the answer to the above is in the af-
firmative, will the Minister state when Government
proposes so to do?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

1. Is the Minister aware that part of the
road system in the Rendezvous Fairway Gardens
areawas repaired and repaved by the Southern Dis-
trict Council when it was in control of the roads in
that part of Christ Church?

2. Is the Minister aware that the residents
in the said Rendezvous-Fairway Gardens area were
promised by the Southern District Council that the
balance of roads in their areas would be repaired


but that the Government took over the roads before
this was done?

3. Will the Minister state whether the Gov-
ernment proposes to complete the work started by
the Southern District Council? If the answer to the
above is in the affirmative, will the Minister state
in what financial year?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

Is the Minister aware that there are no proper
parking facilities in the Oistin area in the parish of
Christ Church?

2. If the answer to the above is in the af-
firmative, is Government prepared to create park-
ing facilities in the said area?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

1. Is the Minister aware that during the
rainy season the area between the Post Office in
Oistin's and Top Rock is very badly flooded?

2. Will the Minister state what are Govern-
ment's plans, if any, for creating a proper drainage
system for this year.

3. Will the Minister state in which finan-
cial year Government proposes to implement the
same?

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

1. Is the Minister aware that there is acute
traffic congestion on the Oistin Highway especially
during the afternoon in the fishing season?

2. Will the Minister devise ways and means
to relieve this acute problem?
3.10 p.m.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give notice
of the following Question: -

To enquire of the appropriate Minister: -

Will the Minister state the number of Ministers
of Government (other than the Prime Minister) who
during the past two years have occupied Government-
owned houses or flats in this Island?

2. Will the Minster state the names of any
such Ministers and what rentals each such Min4st0
paid in respect of the occupation of such houses?

Mr. SPEAKER: Will the hon. senior member
for St. James assure me that the second question is
also part of the question which he handed in?

Mr. CRAIG: Yes, sir.


Mr. SPEAKER: I accept the hon. member's as-
surance. Unfortunately they are not a part of the








1729


questions which have been handed to me and are on
my Notice Paper, but these things do happen.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give notice
of the following question: -

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

Will the Minister take steps to acquire, com-
pulsorily or otherwise, the parcel of land south of
and adjoiningthe Holetown Post Office for the pur-
pose of providing an Esplanade for the use of the
parishioners of Saint James?

Mr. SPEAKER: There is one more question on
my Notice Paper for this morning. It stands in the
name of the hon. senior member for Bridgetown
whom I do not observe instantly to be in his place.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I am asking your per-
mission to ask the question on behalf of the hon.
member. I am doing so at his request.

Mr. SPEAKER: I accept the assurance that the
request made by the hon. junior member for St.
Peter is on behalf of the hon. senior member for
Bridgetown. Let the question be put.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon.
senior member for Bridgetown, I beg to give no -
tice of the following question:-

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

Is the Minister aware of the acute embarrass-
ment caused to the members of the Anglican Clergy
in this Island due to the non-implementation of the
agreement between Church and State as to the dis -
establishment of the Anglican Church?

2. Will the Minister take immediate steps
to have this matter finalised?

REPLIES TO QUESTIONS

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 114 stands in the
name of the hon. senior member for St. Joseph.

QUESTIONS re IMPORTED FOODSTUFFS

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the question reads
as follows:-

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:-

1. Is Government aware that the increased
cost of imported foodstuffs on the local market has
had the effect of raising the cost of living to heights
beyond the reach of the incomes of the working class
people?

2. If the answer to the above is in the af-
firmative, will the Government consider immedi-
ately the advisability of re-introducing the subsidi-
sation of essential commodities which are used
mainly by the poorest class of working people?


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, the Reply is
as follows: -

"1. Government is aware of the increased
cost of imported foodstuffs on the local market.
These increases were largely due to the devaluation
of the pound sterling and increased costs. In an ef-
fort to keep the cost of living within the reach of
consumers, Government extended the range of con-
trol of essential foodstuffs from the 5th December,
1967 and a comparison at 13th February, 1968 in
the cost of 32 items of foodstuff since the devalua-
tion has shown that prices of 17 items have not
been increased, 6 items have increased by less
than 10% and 5 items by more than 10%. The prices
of 4 items have actually decreased.

2. Does not arise."

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, it was impossible
for me to follow the Minister closely on such a long
reply. If I am in order, I would ask that the replies
be printed and circulated before I ask any supple-
mentaries.

Mr. SPEAKER: In any event they will be printed
and circulated. If the hon. member is asking to be
allowed to await the printing and circulating before
he asks supplementary questions, I will consider
that request sympathetically.

Mr. SMITH: Will I then be in order to ask ques-
tions after they have been circularised?

Mr. SPEAKER: There is precedent for it, and
we will follow the precedent on this occasion.

I am reminded apropos the precedent that a
similar request was made by the hon. junior mem-
ber for St. Peter in respect of Question No. 152.
Let the hon. member proceed.
3.20 p.m.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, the Reply states at
No. I that Parent-Teachers Associations are con-
sidered desirable. I am to wonder if the Minister is
aware......

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member is to enquire
if the Minister is aware, not merely to wonder.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I am to enquire if the
Minister is aware that a book bearing the title "Sug-
gestion to Teachers" was distributed by the Min-
istry of Education to our Teachers here in which
it is stated that Parent-Teacher relationship is an
indispensable link?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: no, Sir. I am not aware of
that.

Mr. HINDS: Now, Sir, I am to enquire if the
Minister is aware of the fact that any Parent-Teacher
bodies such as are given in his Replies to be func-
tioning one of the difficulties is that the Teachers
are found to dominate rather than the Parents.








1730


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Yes, from my own experi-
ence, I think that I can remember that being a prob-
lem, but I do not think I would put it quite like that,
that the Teachers are found to dominate. What I
think has happened and I think the hon. member
would realise that this can happen too is that in
these Organisations Parents, quite wrongly, in my
opinion, tend to feel that the most of the argument
and the talking must necessarily be done by Teachers;
until they get accustomed to running their own Or-
ganisation, they tend to leave it to the Teachers to
make suggestions at meetings, to move motions and
make speeches. That is until they get accustomed
to the idea that it is an Organisation of Parents and
Teachers, and not a Teachers' Organisation. It has
however been my experience that when once they
have got to understand that these Organisations are
so designed that the Parents of children should share
as fully in the running of them as the Teachers, this
initial shyness wears out, and the Teachers never
have as much say or as much dominance in the con-
duct of their affairs as formerly. That has been my
experience.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to enquire
of the Minister if he is aware that since the tabling
of this question, there has been a considerable
awakening amongst the Grammar Schools and Pri-
mary Schools in this Island with regards to the form-
ing of Parent- Teachers Bodies.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid
that I cannot assist the hon. member by saying that I
am aware of this, since the questions have been ta-
bled. It is however within my knowledge that within
the last I would say eight or ten years, but more
particularly, say, within the last five or six years,
that more and more schools with their teaching staff
and the parents of the children all become aware of
the necessity of Parent-Teachers Organisations. I
do not imagine that this awareness has been more
evident since the questions have been tabled than it
was before. If the hon. member wishes to tell me
that, I am quite willing to believe him, but I myself
was not aware of that.

Mr. HINDS: I wonder if I could enquire of the
Minister if he is aware that in his Primary and all-
age schools there are 293 Teachers and 2,380 Pa-
rents involved in the Parent-Teacher movement. I
wonder if the Minister is aware that this only ap-
plies to 50 schools in the Island.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: This could quite possibly
be so. That is the whole point of the hon. member's
question, as it must be the policy of the Ministry to
get more and more schools with their Teachers and
Parents of the children more and more involved in
these organizations. Therefore, if it is true that only
50 schools are indeed so organized, this is too small
a number by far, and we must hope that more and
more schools will become aware of the value of the
Parent-Teacher Associations. I myself have always
stressed the necessity of that, and a lot of the prob-
lems now arising out of discipline, for instance, in
the schools would be solved if they were more P.T.A.'s


in the schools, I agree with the hon. member that 50
is a small number, but wehope that with renewed
interest, by this time next year or even before this,
there may be as many as 100 or 150. That is what
we wish to encourage.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I am to enquire if the
Minister is satisfied that in the 17 Government-
aided schools, only three schools have Parent-
Teachers Bodies associated with them. In these 17
schools which are Government-aided independent
schools, only three schools have Parent-Teacher
Bodies attached to them.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: No, I am not aware of that.
I am not at all surprised at it. These are Primary
institutions, and it is to be hoped that the proprie-
tors and principals and the people who run these
schools will seethe necessity andvalue of establish-
ing P.T.A.'s, as we approve the principle of it with
respect to the Government schools.


Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, this may be my last
supplementary question. I am enquiring if the Min-
ister is aware that the difficulty in having more
Parent-Teacher Bodies affiliated with schools is
that there has been a marked lack of liaison between
the Ministry of Education, Headteachers of Second-
ary Schools and of Primary schools, and I should
say to an even greater extent between the Social
Welfare Department and the schools.
3.30 p.m.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: This can be so, of course;
but we are dealing with a voluntary association of
Parents and Teachers, and in any voluntary associ-
ation I think that you have to rely on the motivation
of the individuals in the venture. I have already as-
sured the member that as far as the Ministry of
Education is concerned, P.T.A.s will be promoted
in ever-increasing numbers.

Mr. HINDS: If I may ask one more......

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I am afraid that the hon.
member has himself at a disadvantage. It is now
half past three.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. junior member for St.
Peter indicated that his question before the last
would probably be the last.

Mr. HINDS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I am fin-
ished with that.

Mr. SPEAKER: It will go off the Order Paper.

Mr. HINDS: Yes, Sir.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am thankful for the co-operation
of the hon. member. We will revert from now......

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: We are well aware that the
motion was to have a half hour of Question Time.
My colleague has pointed out that he brought in Re-
plies to two Questions asked by the hon. senior









1731
)----


member for St. Thomas. He is suggesting that if.
the hon. member is willing to ask the questions, he
is willing to dispose of them. In that case I am will-
ing to move a further extention of Question Time
until 3.45 p.m.

Mr. SPEAKER: May I point out that there is
another question asked by the junior member for
St. Peter, No. 157, which was asked since he com-
pleted reading the question which was at the time
to revert to other business. I only draw that to the
attention- of the Hon. Leader of the House so that
perhaps he might......

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: I beg to second that.

The question that Question Time be extended until 3.45
p.m. was put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Mr. SPEAKER: QuestionNo. 157, Page 10, right
hand column, in the name of the hon. junior mem-
berfor St. Peter, which he read at a previous meet-
ing immediately after the completion of Question
Time was called. I am afraid that the answer to No.
157 is not presently in the House, and I will direct
that that Question remain on the Order Paper.

No. 83 standing in the name of the hon. aid
leamredmember for St. Thomas, on page 6, top right
hand column.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, to en-
quire of the Minister of Transport:-

1. Is the Minister aware that residents on
and near the main Highway from Shop Hill as far
north as Dunscombe in the parish of St. Thomas are
finding great difficulty in getting buses to Bridge-
town, especially in the early morning?

2. Will the Minister take steps to remedy
the situation?

H'on. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Speaker, the replies
are as follows:-

1. No, Sir.

2. There is evidence of occasional over-
crowding at peak hours in the morning period and
the omnibus service is being re-scheduled to elimi-
nate this.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, will the
Minister state if this re-scheduling has taken place
since this question?

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: I will assume so, Mr.
Speaker.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Will the Minister state
if he considers that the reply to Part 2 is consistent
with the reply to Part one, that the second part. is con-
sistsntwiththe firstpart of the reply? If he requires
further elucidation, he says that he is not aware that
the residents are suffering any difficulty in the early


morning. Will he say that these two replies are mu-
tually inconsistent?

Anyway,Mr. Speaker, I will like to thank the Min-
ister for taking such prompt steps following my ques-
tion to do away with the inconvenience in the parish
which both the Hon. Minister and myself represent.

Mr. SPEAKER: DoI understand that to be a sup-
plementary? Should it not be: "Is it not a fact that the
Minister has taken such prompt steps?"

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Private Members' Business be now taken until 4
o'clock.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS

Mr. SPEAKER. No. 1 under Private Members'
Business is to resume debate on the passing of a Reso-
lution in connection with the Financial Statemc-;lt and
Budgetary Proposals for the Fiscal Year 1967-68.
When debate on this subject was adjourned the hon.
seniormemberforSt. Joseph -according to the offi-
cial report the hon.senior member for St. Joseph on
the 14th May was still speaking. On the 28th May, the
hon. senior member for StJosephwa still speaking,
and on the 18,h June, the hon. member was speaking
when Government Business wa- called. The hon. mem-
ber may continue to speak.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I will continue -o speak,
and continue to speak and continue to speak.
3.40 p.m.

I will continue to speak, bii it has just been
drawn to my attention by the hon. senior member for
St. Thomas that the Leader of the Opposition would
like to reply to these Budgeiary Proposals. I intended
to wind up, but if I do so he may lose h.s chance to
reply. If that is so, and I anm ino in orde ., I would not
mind moving that the matter be deferred until the
next sitting.

Mr. SPEAKER; Private Members' Business will
end, according to :he motion wh.ch is now before us,
at 4 p.m. I know the hon. senior member for St.
Joseph is quite capable of taking care of himself un-
til 4 p.m. without concluding.

Mr. SMITH: I thought it was 4.30 p.m. for Pri-
vate Members' Business.

Mr. SPEAKER: The Standing Order has been
suspended, and it has been decided that Private Mem-
bers' Business should,conclude today at 4 p.m.

Mr. SMITH: I do not think I was present. On the
other hand, I may have been speaking and I did not
pay attention to what was going on. Then I am in or-
der to carry on. I can carry on until today week with-









1732


out going to sleep, Sir, on the Budgetary
Proposals.

Mr. SPEAKER: But the Cha.r does not guaran-
tee to do a similar thing.

Mr. SMITH: I will not ask for you: guarantee,
Sir. I will continue. At the last meeting I was making
a point relative to what was happening in this coun-
try with poultry farmers. I ended up by saying that
it was only last Sunday when I heard over the radio
that quite a number of things are coming to this coun-
try from Trinidad in relation to this same trade busi-
ness. I am not against things coming into this country,
because I understand that refrigerators will be at
least $100 cheaper. I do not know if they will be $100
better. Now those poor people who have not had the
opportunity of buying a refrigera.:r before can buy
*ne now at a cheaper price. That is a very good step
and it shows that CAR'FTA, as far as Trinidad is
concerned, is doing good work.

Mr. Speaker, I am still wondering to know what
we have to send to Tri iidad. Now the people in Tri-
nidad will flood us with their goods, but I wonder
what this Governmeut is thinking of sending to Trini-
dad, as far as CARIFTA is concerned. I will con-
tinue to warn the Government to be very ca.-.ful in
this matter n- d to protect all of us, A wv.,od to the
wise is enough, because I have heard that Jamaica
has come in very quickly although it pulled out just
as quickly, but Jamaica also has its reason for com-
ing in. In view of vhat the Minister of Trade in
Jamaicahad to say, we can clearly see that Jamaica
had something to lose by keeping out of the CARIFTA
Agreeme at.

The three big countries involved in this Agree-
ment, Iam sur, hawv everything to gain. I sincerely
hop-: ;.hat little Barbadoswill gain something too. As
far as I can see, the few small industries that we
have in this country may not be able to meet the de-
mands inside and outside of Barbados. On the other
hand, the other countries may be producing the sane
items that we are producing here, and I do not know
if the other countries would allow Barbados to send
them similar goods. That is what I am afraid of, and
you will pardon me, Sir, for rambling about in this
matter, because I have not yet been told on the floor
of this House what is the real meaning of CARIFTA
as far as Barbados is concerned. Therefore if we
should land in trouble, I do not think that, at least,
the Opposition can be held responsible for it.

I think I heard just last week that St. Lucia had
debated CARIFTA, but the members of the Opposi-
tion said that they did not have sufficient time to in-
vestigate the matter. However, CARIFTA was agreed
to. As far as St. Lucia is concerned, it has done more
than Barbados. I cannot remember our debating the
matteron the foor of this House. If we have debated
it, then I might not have been present. Sir, suppose
it was not debated, what can one say? The only thing
I can say is that the Government, and it is true, just
does not care anything about the Opposition. The


Government is the Government of the country, and
what it says is all right; but it is not fair in dealing
with such an important matter that any Government
of any country should take it upon itself to make a
decision in this matter without having debated it in
the House.

As a matter of fact, I would not even say that
the Government made the decision. The Leader of
the Government took it upon himself to commit the
entire country in things of this nature. I do not know
anything about it; I was not told anything about it;
but as far as I can see the other countries are gear-
ing up to grapple all the business and to do all the
trade, but I cannot see what Barbados is doing to
capture trade from outside.
3.50 p.m.

We will only be standing by to spend our money
with the big countries and make them richer and
bigger, a-d we will remain smaller; and it is a fact
that we have to pay more. We would not mind buy-
iingtheirgoods if theywere buyingours to even it up,
but if I have to buy yours and have nothing to sell, it
is a first-class agreement fo these large countries.

With respect to CARIFTA, you would be sur-
prised to know that the Prime Minister of Guyana
flew into Barbados and had talks with the Prime
Minister of Barbados, and out of the blue we were
committed to CARIFTA. Two men met ar.d it was
started, and we have to sit back and take the time
from them. That is why I am very much afraid of so
much power. Too much power corrupts. To 250,000
people one man can say "come", "go", "die" or
"live"; and this is a very serious matter. I would
not have to say much on this if we were suffering
from the lack of establishing our industries and ex-
panding them, because I know that when we agree
with the other territories we would be doing some-
thing for the people, finding more work for them and
bringing more money into the country. I would do as
Jamaica or any other big country did: jump in the
line very fast; but here it is: we have to buy and
have very little to sell.

I do not know, Sir, if we were -uffering for a
bigger market for our rum, because I do not go too
far from Barbados. My money is not so big to carry
me to big countries, but I go around the small Islands,
and everywhere I stop I see our old Eclipse rum. I
feel that the people of these countries drink nothing
but Mount Gay; so I do not think we would be doing
very much for rum by signing this Agreement as far
as the rum industry is concerned. I regard th l\oler
things as small because they employ fewpeople.
You will have noticed what came to our country last
Sunday: all the big elec cical appliances from next
door. There are businessmen here who, I hope, will
be able to do some business, but I am still worried
about how long we will ha-re to keep time with the
others before we can do some big export trade. I
think I saw in this morning's papers that another
beer factory was set up in Trinidad. If they are
manufacturing beer in Trinidad, would they allow









1733


,us to flood their market with our beer and let their
factory close down? I do not know how the agreement
is worded although something was circulated about
CARIFTA, and that is the thing that is worrying me.
If we are manufacturing something here, are we go-
ing to allow other people to bring in theirs and shut
us completely out, or is the agreement such that we
cannot allow "A" or "B" because we are manufac-
turing it? I still think that we stand to lose more. The
other small territories who do not have industries
have nothing to shout about; but if we had sat and dis-
cussed the agreement in a way in which we could ask
questions and put things together, I would be wonder-
deringnow as others are doing. I would not doubt that
some Ministers on the other side are wondering also.
I want to know how far we are protected as far as
this is concerned. I cannot even see the Prime Min-
ister to ask him a question which I am sure he would
answer and save me from going all out now; but I am
very unhappy about it knowing thatwe are a little fish
trying to get into a big pond, while the big fishes in
the big pond have more chances than we do.

If the other people had taken on Jamaica in wl'at
she wanted to do, she would not have come back with
us; but she failed; her plans backfired on her, and in
quick time she is back on to CARIFTA; but if the
others had guts, they would leave her out and let her
wander about at least for a time. However, all I can
hearfr:,m the Leaders of the other territories is that
they are happy that Jamaica has seen the error of
her ways and has come back in. The Leaders of the
other territories have their arms wide open.



GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid the hon. senior mem-
ber for St. Joseph may have to continue another day.
It is now 4 o'clock and it was decreed that we re-
sume Government Business at that time. When the
Sitting was suspended, the House was in Committee
of Supply.

GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, before Your
Honour leaves the Chair, I should like to ask leave of
the House to give notice of a Bill which did not arrive
in time when I was giving Notices earlier.

Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the House is
seeking leave of the House to give notice of a Bill
which he was not in a position to do earlier today,
and unless there is any objection, leave will be granted.

There being no objection, leave is granted. The
Hon. Leader of the House may proceed.
4.00 p.m.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give
notice of a Bill to provide for the establishment of an
educational institution to be known as the Barbados
Community College and for matters connected there-
with and incidental thereto.


BILL READ A FIRST TIME

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this Bill be now read a first time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

Mr. SPEAKER: On the last occasion of Govern-
ment Business, the House was in Committee of Sup-
ply.
Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the House resumed Com-
mittee of Supply, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.
HEAD 102 MINISTRY OF COMMUNICATIONS
AND WORKS

Mr. CHAIRMAN: On the suspension of the sitting,
the House was in Committee of Supply and the hon.
senior member for Christ Church was speaking on a
Resolutionforthe sum of $482,345. I observe that the
hon. member is not now in his place.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, with respect to this
Resolution for the sum of $226,600 for Lhe Transport
Board, all we have before us in addition to the few
remarks from the Hon. Minister in introducing the
Resolution, is the Report of the Transport Board,
and this Report is in respect of the financial year
ending September 1965. Attached thereto is the Re-
port of the General Manager of the Transport Board
for the same period. Now, one point which was made
bythe Hon. Minister certainly does arrest my atten-
tion. He made reference to the days when one caught
a bus at 7 o'clock in the morning on one's way to
work to find that at 9,o'clock one still found oneself
on the road on the way to work; but, Mr. Chairman, I
am to say that a similar condition exists today. The
Minister ought to be awart of that because wherever
one goes on the routes that are expected to be served
by .he Government Transport Board's buses, one
cannot escape experiencing the mass suffering of
people; and if we were to take the Report of the Man-
ager of the Transport Board, although, as I say, this
Report is in respect of the yearending on the 30th
September, 1965, we have nothing else :o guide us.
But if we were to take the Manager's Report, we can
only come to the conclusion that he was honest when
he wrote in this particular paragraph, the second
last paragraph from the end of his Report, as follows:

"The service to the public, although not fully
.satisfactory, has been maintained at the highest level
of efficiency that is possible with the present fleet."

If youwere to turn elsewhere in this Report, you
are goingto find thatthe same Manager sets about to
contradict himself; because in speaking of the pres-
ent fleet, he makes mention of the Mercedes Benz
buses which are fast deteriorating and 21 gasolene
untis which are becoming obsolete. This then, Mr.
Chairman, begins to give us same sort of a picture









1734


ps to the type of service that the Transport Board
is offering to the general public. Now, Sir, the Min-
ister has given us no information as to the plans of
the Board respecting the information contained in
this particular Report to which I am referring, be-
cause here in this Report the Manager of the Board
makes mention of an imminent removal of the depot
and as regards the workshop, he gave some infor-
mation that the staff is working under intolerable
conditions.

Now Sir, there is no doubt, from this Report
and from what the Minister has said today, that
there is the intention of providing better workshop:
accommodation.
4.10 p.m.

We would have to say on this side of the House,
Sir, that if new offices are to be there and workshop
accommodation is to be provided, we are entitled to
know andto seethe plans of the Government, and be
satisfied that they themselves know what they are
really about when they come to this Hon. House for
the sum of money mentioned in this Resolution.

The Minister is very careful at times to tell us
that the buses are our buses, that the water is ours;
but are we to understand that the offices that are to
be built and the workshop that is to be built are
these not ours also?

We feel, Sir, that the Transport Board or the
Transport Authority would have had some plans
prepared. They would have had their estimates be-
fore they attempted to come to this House for this
sum of money; but the Report of the Manager gives
us quite a bit of information which can be used to
advantage to help the Minister, so to speak, in get-
ting this Resolution through.

Now, mention has been made by the Minister
of the various routes given to concessionaires. We
must accept it as a fact that the Transport Board,
the Transport Authority, or whatever you may call
it is a concessionaire in the same light as the Elite
MotorOmnibus Company and the Rocklyn Bus Com-
pany; but unfortunately for the Elite and the Rock-
lyn Bus Companies, they do not have the taxpayers
into whose pockets they can dive from time to time
to supplement their income from the buses. So you
will understand that the Elite and the Rocklyn have
got to be ultra careful in the conduct of their busi-
ness, and they have got to show the type of interest
that one is not likely to find being displayed in the
operations of the Transport Board; because the
Manager tells us of the increase in fares, and he
was at some pains also to tell us about pirate buses.

Now, at one point in the Manager's Report he
makes mention of pirate buses on Routes 1, 1A, 1B,
1C, and lF. I want to tell the Hon. Minister this, Mr.
Chairman, that if the pirate buses are operating on
these routes, the Report of the General Manager of
the Transport Board is in itself a sufficient justifi-
cation for the retention of these pirate buses on
,these particular routes, because the Manager has


nothiddenit. What he didn't do istotellus how many
breakdowns, how many times breakdowns occur in
the old dilapidated fleet on the various routes, leav-
ing people to suffer. I can speak of what happens on
Route 1, 1A, 1B, and 1C. I can see it and I know it
formyself that even with the pirate buses functioning
as they do now, there is still quite a lot of suffering
by the travelling public.

One has got to remember that the pirate buses
very often have to take the type of passenger that the
Government buses would not take. These are the type
ofpassengerswho carry what the Minister will refer
to as extra baggage. But beyond that, there is a type
of passenger who has got to board the pirate buses
because it is the surest means of his getting to work,
getting to his job on time.

This is no sport,Mr. Chairman, There is a fleet
of about 97 buses belonging to this organisation, this
Transport Board, and the Manager has reported in
this light; he tells us that it is impossible to main-
tain the fleet at peak performance because of the
inefficiency of the gasolene units and the fast deteri-
oration of the diesel units and the lack of enough
spare replacements. That is the position of the Trans-
port Board.

Mr. Chairman, suppose a decision was taken
now in the light of the Manager's Report that these
buses that are so unserviceable are scrapped forth-
with. What would become of the travelling public? So
you willunderstand that a case can be made out suc-
cessfully for the retention of the pirate buses on
these routes, Route 1, 1A, 1B, and 1C, because you
have a fleet of old shacks. A considerable percentage
of the buses plying on these routes one has got to
see it, and one cannot escape seeing it. As you go on
within a distance of two miles sometimes, two or
three buses daring peak hours on mornings or eve-
nings have broken down on the road, and the throngs
of passengers are there just standing by looking one
at the other not knowing what to do.

The Transport Board does not have a fleet ca-
pable of carrying out its contract. That has got to be
admitted sooner or later.
4.20 p.m.

Under such conditions it is only fair, reasonable
and just, to take into consideration the fact that, while
the units of the buses are in such a state of disrepair,
the members of the travelling public still have to be
served. If that is the case, then what one has to bear
inmind in respectof these pirate buses is this: I un-
derstand that the pirate bus operators, who call
themselves minibus operators, have recently peti-
tioned the Minister of Communications and Works in
the hope that something would be done to permit them
to carry more passengers than they are allowed to
carry at the present moment.

One might find that, in the light of the Report,
the Minister might try to make it appear difficult to
entertain the petition from these operators; but what
we would like to urge upon the Minister is this: The









1735


capacity for carrying passengers on these minibuses,
pickups, or what name suits them best, should be
carefully considered. Some are licensed as cabs and
taxis and, undoubtedly, there is the necessity for
amending the law with respect to this particular type
of motor vehicle which carries passengers for hire.

Perhaps, it may be argued, that in view of the
fact that the Island is now I can only say expected
to the served by three concessionaires, it would be
difficult to give permission to a minibus operator,
to ply for hire on the same routes that have already
been allocated to concessionaires. The complaint is
made, even in this Report, that the bus operators do
not operate in a manner designed to fill any inade-
quacy in the service, but the General Manager charges
that they operate deliberately to deprive the Board
of passengers.

Mr. Chairman, in your parish, are you going to
tell me that the people who have to come to town on
mornings and travel back home on evenings, or to go
to and fro on their business during the day, would
prefer to travel in a pickup van with several crocus
bags of vegetables and so on, if they could really and
truly rely on the Transport Board, or any other Bus
Company, to give them the type of service they look
for: buses in a reasonable and respectable condition,
buse. running according to schedule and the like? If
they knew that they could get a proper bus service,
then these minibuses and pickup vans would automa-
tically have to go off the road. It is not true or fair
to accuse these pickups or pirate buses of deliber-
ately robbing the Transport Board, or any other con-
cessionaire, of passengers.

Mr. Chairman, we have seen, and the Minister
must know, too, that these pirate buses definitely fill
a need in the community at the present moment. The
Minister also knows that, even when the Transport
Board has its fleet of buses up to date, with the in-
creased ;unount of travelling by the public generally,
there will still be the need -'or the retention of these
minibuses. We are sure that the day the bus services
are maintained at a standard demanded, or expected,
bythe travelling public, there will be no problem, as
the General Manager said here, "that the attention
of the Director of Highways and Transport, the Po-
lice Department and the Ministry of Communications
and Works, have been drawn to the recent increase
innumbers and sizes of these pirate buses operating
on these roads."

Mr. Chairman, there would be no necessity for
the police to become involved in this matter, because
if passengers refuse to travel on a pirate bus on a
route served by a good bus service, the pirate bus
will be run out of business. It will be argued that the
pirate bus is competing against the regular buses. If
it is competing, then it will be doing so in respect of
the fact that it takes a passenger up at a particular -
point, and it succeeds in getting him to work in Bridge-
town on time and prevents him or her from being
dismissed.
One thing in favour of these minibuses is this:
travelling from Boscobelle, St. Peter, on a minibus,


one has to pay 324 to come to Bridgetown. If one tra-
vels on a bus owned by the Transport Board one has
to pay the same 324. If one travels on a pickup van
one has to pay the same 320. The minibus, or the
pickup van, does not charge a penny less than the
regular bus. Mr. Chairman, if the fare is the same,
would one not prefer to travel on the general bus?
One would feelthat there is greater safety surround-
ing one in the general bus. The atmosphere in the gen-
eral bus is expected to be different. When you get
into a minibus you will find backets of fish, dolphin,
and so on in it.
4.30 p.m.

People leave their homes early on mornings, and
on account of being able to travel on these buses,
reach their jobs on time. Are you going to tell me
then, Mr. Chairman, that if a bus service was of such
that the customer could rely on being driven, so to
speak, in state into the City and back or elsewhere,
that they would not perfer to do so on the general
buses, rather than in the type of conditions that I have
complained of on the minibuses? It is not fair, and
whatwe must say is this: I am to encourage the Min-
ister to do all he possibly can to reduce the suffer-
ing of the general public by encouraging the present
fleet of minibuses to do this: carry their passengers
without overloading, see that they carry these pas-
sengers under cover of insurance. I further encou-
rage that the minibuses do not stop at the regular
bus poles at the same time as the general buses to
cause an obstruction or to make it appear to the buses
run by the respective concessionaires that there
is competition between them so to speak, because the
minibuses, as I have said, are merely operating to
serve the public and the returns to the operators are
not in truth and in fact so great. We are willing to
admitthat some of these minibuses can take up their
load of passengers and, not having direct routes along
which they must ply, make shorter cuts. Travelling
on Route 1, it is quite possible, although I see it sel-
dom happen, that a minibus on reaching Eagle Hall
might for the convenience of its passengers travel
along the President Kennedy Drive or go down Bar-
barees Hill roadwhich is not open to the buses of the
concessionaires. You will also find that minibuses
can make stops atvarious points along various routes
where it would be very inconvenient for the regular
buses to make these stops.

While the Transport Board might claim that it
suffers a loss of passengers, and while the other
concessionaires will also make the same claim, we
are to maintain that the day a census is taken of the
travelling public over a period of time and it is
known definitely what are the requirements of the
travelling public by way of buses and the type of
buses, we would then be in a better position to say
that the Transport Board must have a fleet not now
of 97 buses, but maybe 127, because that is my view
from what I have seen. In addition to this, Mr. Chair-
man, is the attitude of the staff of the Transport
Board. It has happened on more than one occasion
that something goes wrong with a bus while en route
to Bridgetown or to the country, and as a matter of
,fact there seems to ha're been no directive given









1736


whether the bus driver must leave his wheel because
the bus is now out of service and go to the nearest
telephone and telephone the Transport Board, or whe-
therit shouldbe the conductor's duty. From this, Mr.
Chairman, there is considerable delay when a bus
stops before the conductor and driver reach agree-
ment as to which of the two must inform the Trans-
port Board that they cannot carry out the terms of
their schedule in the particular instance. When a de-
cision is reached after a considerable time, a tele-
phone message is sent through to the Transport Board
and the first mechanic who wants to get out of the
Transport Board yard jumps into a jeep and goes to
wherever the bus stalls, and it is only after he has
reached the spot that he finds he has brought out
every piece of tool except the one he needs to ser-
vice the bus. He then starts to quarrel with the con-
ductor and driver for not telling him what they wanted,
and all the time the passengers are becoming angrier
andmore despondent about the whole service. He will
then in turn either drive back to the Transport Board
or send through another message for another me-
chanic or somebody else to bring him the piece of
tool he wants. As a boy going home from school or
from Bridgetown, when these buses were owned by
private concessionaires and one stalled, every pas-
senger got out and helped to push it, put our mouths to
the funnel leading to the gasolene tank and blew, and
the bus would start, everybody would get back in and
the bus would go. Today that bus goes out of com-
mission for a week as a result of a little stuff in its
jets.

I want to say here and now that I learnt from the
Highways and Transport Inspecting Department that
the Elite Motor Omnibus Company is maintaining its
fleet and is doing a reasonably good service. From
my experience of the Rocklyn Bus Company, consid-
ering that they have this uphill task and the very
heavy strain on their buses, we have got to commend
the owner, bearing in mind that the lady is showing
us that she has been able to succeed throughout the
years where men have failed by way of managing her
business; but as I have said earlier; the Elite and the
Rocklyn Bus Companies have got to be very careful
about the maintenance of their units, keep them well
serviced and see that as soon as something is wrong
it is put right before they allow their units to leave
the garages. It is not so with the Government buses.
There is not that type of interest; so you will under-
stand that by having the taxpayers to appeal to, that
is the type of thing that is obtaining at the present
moment.
4.40 p.m.

Mr. Chairman, this Resolution is for the recon-
struction and rehabilitation of the premises occupied
by the Transport Board which we understand is
planned in two stages. The Addendum to the Resolu-
tion tells us that the first stage involving the re-
surfacing and drainage of the area is nearing
completion, and that this supplementary provision
of $226,600 is now sought to implement the second
stage of the plan which provides for new offices and
workshop accommodation. The General Manager tells
*us here that the site of the Housing Authority in


Country Roadwas proposed at one time for the hous-
ing of the Transport Board. As I say, we have had no
communication from the Board since this particular
Report was made, and we would welcome hearing
from the Minister there was also a time when we
heard that the buses were to be housed in an area at
Deacons Road. All of those things we heard and we
would welcome hearing from the Minister if the plan
for housing the buses at the Country Road site has
been shelved, what is the new plan and what is the
reasonfordecidingto have the workshop at the pres-
ent site at Weymouth as against this suggestion where
the Minister tells us that on two occasions the Minis-
ter of Communications and Works, the Acting Director
of Highways and Transport, the Town and Country
Planning Officer, the Chairman and the General Mana-
ger himself visited the proposed site at the Housing
Authority at Country Road. I would certainly like to
know what has been decided for and subsequently
against having that site for the Transport Board. If
it is still the intention of the Board or the Government
to effect the transfer from one site to the other, we do
not see the necessity for spending $226,600 for plac-
ing it at the present site when that site may have to
be used for something else. In the absence of better
information than that which I have from the Manager
of the Board, I would like to enquire from the Minis-
terif there is anything that he can tell us in this par-
ticular respect.

On the question of the local production of bus
bodies, there is little which anybody would want to say,
butwe urge on the Minister to do all that he possibly
can for the local bus body-building company to speed
up matters and have them turn the buses out so as to
relieve the present suffering public. There is no doubt
about it at all that one can see too many people wait-
ingfortoo longa period of time on the various routes
which are served by the Transport Board, and we
would urge that something be done about it. I have ob-
served that provision is now being made at some
bus stops where persons can wait for the buses off
the main highway. I have not yet seen if, at these
waiting points, the provision, when completed, would
be such as to enforce the principle of queueing. That
is one very important point. If the law requires
queueing, any provision which is made for people
waiting for buses should be consonant with queueing.

Mr. Chairman, the other part of the Resolution
is in respect of additional water mains and standposts
and the Addendum reads as follows:

"The provisions under these items in the cur-
rent Estimates have been fully committed on the ap-
proved programme of work. The new Development
Plan will include an extensive programme for the
further development of the water services, and the
supplement ary provision being sought is to carry on
the programme pending approval of the full plan."

Now, Mr. Chairman, I consider this to be a
very dangerous statement, because the full plan has
not yet been approved by this House. If we were to ac-
cept it today and vote money to carry out a part of
,the plan, we could not then when the full Plan comes








1737


before us in fact, the Minister would be in this po-
sitionwhere he couldtell us: "You have already
approved a part of this Plan; you have voted a supple-
mentary estimate for carrying out a portion of this
Plan". And if we have carried out a portion of the
Plan, would we be then in a position to condemn the
otherportionof the Planwhen the full portion comes
before us?
4.50 p.m.

We feel that the object and purpose of this Re-
solution would have been better served except in
the case of some extreme urgency and there is no
evidence from the cool and calm manner in which the
Minister made his presentation of the Resolution,
there is no evidence coming from him of any case of
extreme emergency where we could not wait until the
full Plan is before us.

But since this a question of water mains, I am
to ask the Minister what is the position regarding
BennHillin St. Peterwhere, as I have told this House
on more than one occasion already, water is con-
nectedto residences at the bottom of Benn Hill. Why
is it, Mr. Chairman, what is wrong, what can be done
about gettingwater to those residences in the middle
of Benn Hill?

I feel that the Minister would like to know that
water is everywhere. I find that the Minister even
tells us what is his intention in St. Thomas. Again I
am drawing it to the Minister's attention. Ihave
heard the Minister say that if a bucket is full of wa-
ter it cannot hold more; but I want to warn the Min-
ister to discuss this matter with his engineers, and
they must know that an intermittent supply of water
brings about a greater loss of water than a constant
supply even in small doses.

If it is known that they are going to get water
between 6 and 9 a.m., everybody is going to be at
the pipe and try to fill every container in their
homes. Whatever can hold water they will try to put
water into. If they know that they will not get water
until 6 p.m. or 6 tomorrow morning, they will use
the water with caution.

But what is going to happen? If the water is
coming on again at 6 a.m. tomorrow or at 5.45, all
the water caught yesterday and not used then will be
thrown away. Anintermittent supply of water is dan-
gerous in a respect. It leads to loss of water, and
in some cases it can make provision for the breed-
ing of larvae and the like.

So, Sir, if the Minister would consult with his
engineers, they might find ways and means that in-
stead of giving a village water for three or four
hours out of 12 hours, if it were humanly possible
to make water available to the people a few hours
more or to give it to them in some better quantity,
the Department would stand to gain in the long run
andthe wastage of water, to my mind, would be con-
siderably reduced.
But this is a case where we are being asked to
vote money to carry on a plan pending approval of


the full Plan. When you say 'pending approval of the
ful Plan' we must take it to mean pending the ap-
proval of this Hon. House of the full Plan; but who
is to know, Sir, whether we on this side of the House
would ever approve of the full Plan submitted by the
Hon. Minister to this House?

We would approve provided it is a comprehen-
sive plan taking into consideration the needs, not of
a-y particular remote village, or any particular
built-up area or residential area, but provided :hat
the Plan took into consideration the needs of the
general public.

Mr. Chairman, there are applications reaching
the Ministry and the Waterworks Department from
private developers. We are satisfied we know that
the estimates given by the Department in some
cases are prohibitive. There is a development, Sir,
at St. James which is before my mind now, and the
estimate given does not at all encourage the would-
be developer to go into the project.

It means, therefore, that houses that can be
built houses the building of which will employ
considerable labour cannot and will not be em-
barked upon. All of this, Mr. Chairman, is being
lost, and we are being urged to vote for this sum
under Item 21 and for the sum under Item 22 for
additional mains and standposts and for the re-
placement of mains.

The sum of money involved is so great that it
should be accompanied by a plan which should be
laid here on the Table before hon. members so that
we could get mental pictures of what this scheme,
this programme, is going to entail; and it is for
this reason that we feel that the Minister up to this
point has not done this Committee what he ought.

We were hoping that the Minister would have
been mindful enough to have come here and to have
completely disarmed the Opposition by laying be-
fore us what facts there are, all the facts that could
be laid before us. If he had done so, what would we
have been able to say? We would have had to com-
mendthe Minister or, on the other hand, to sit tight
without being able to present any argument. We
would have had to accept what the Minister had to
say.
5.00 p.m.
Mr. Chairman, I do not want to tire this hon.
Committee, but at the Mount, St. Peter, I have
asked the Minister repeatedly to see to it that stand-.
pipes are placed at the Mount, St. Peter; and in St.
Andrew, Sir, you can still find little boys putting
their mouths to the pipe-cocks trying to see if they
can draw down the water; but all they can suck up
is air no water. I am asking the hon. Minister to
detail someone to check on these things that he
hears hon. members from this side of the House
complain about. I am sure that at Mount, St. Peter,
and at St. Andrew he will find two dry standposts.
He can turn on these pipe-cocks until they cannot
be turned any more: but seldom, if ever, will one
drop of water ever come through.









1738


Mr. Chairman, I am asking that the Minister,
set about investigating these reports, and do what
he can to make life comfortable for these people.
He says that water is his pet subject. If the Minis-
ter is going to play "duck", do not let him duck out
of this. The people want water. He gave us some
figures here; he says that people believe that the
water they get belongs to the Labour Party. (Mr.
HOPPIN: Democratic Labour Party.) I did not hear
the word "Democratic". I heard the Minister say
"Labour Party". I can only think that the Minister
means the Barbados Labour Party. In any case our
people are not...... (ASIDES)

Mr. Chairman, if the Minister is getting angry,
I will talk until tomorrow. (ASIDES)

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Is the hon. member addressing
the Chair?

Mr. HINDS: I was saying that our people are not
the type of people who like to waste water. In the
Parish of St. George, near Redland, there is a pipe,
and you can hardly pass there in the morning be-
tween six and seven, or in the evening just after six,
without finding a number of youngsters bathing under
the pipe. I am saying that much more water is was-
ted than would be wasted if a bath were erected in
the area where all the people who have need for such
services would go at a convenient time to themselves
and get a bath, return home, dress themselves and
go wherever they want to go. You will find at this
particular pipe that the boys are just spouting the
water on each other and wasting it. If you were to
erect a bath, you would have a caretaker and the
conditions would be different.

Mr. Chairman, these are the things that one must
mention. You know, Sir, that it is felt that there
ought to be no Opposition. I am not to be blamed for
that. We in the Opposition have a duty to do for the
public; we are not doing it for ourselves. The Minis -
ter, as I have said before, can considerably reduce
the argument of the Opposition by putting before the
Committee all of the necessary information at his
disposal; but the moment a Minister assumes the
role: "I am a Minister; I amforever to be Minister;
what I care to give I give, and what I do not care to
give I do not give." we have to get up on the floor
of this House and ferret it out of the Minister in
whatever way we can. We need to be informed. We
want to be told what the Government is doing: whe-
ther it be water services, bus services or whatever
it might be. We have the right to ask a Minister to
tell us this and that.

Sir, the Minister said that he was prepared to
answer any request that was reasonable. There could
be a lot of argument on that, but I do not propose to
raise any, or to open any avenue thereto, because it
is just a case of what a Minister determines, accor-
ding to his ability, to be reasonable, or unreasonable,
in his estimation. There could be long and lengthy
arguments, as I have said, on that, but I do not pro.-
pose to enter into any. I hope that I have said enough
to make the Minister understand that his duty will


become increasingly onerous when he assumes the
type of, perhaps, pompous attitude which he does,
perhaps, even unwittingly.
5.10 p.m.

Mr. HOPPIN: Mr. Chairman, there has been such
a long discussion on this Resolution thatI do not in-
tend to make it much longer; but as far as the Trans-
port Board is concerned, my conception is that more
buses are needed to cope with the ever-increasing
travelling public. One of the hazards of the present
Transport Board is that the maintenance of the buses
is not 100 per cent, because we have concessionaires
who have buses of the same make and they are doing
an efficient service on the routes which they ply.
Another hazard, in my opinion, is that the opera-
tional side is not well organised. There are in-
stances, especially at peak hours, where we see
people waiting for transport, and the buses do not
leave the terminus although they are packed. I feel
that on occasions such as that, especially at peak
hours, more buses should be out, and as soon as a
bus is filled it should leave and take away the crowd
that wants to get home. Since this does not happen, it
is my opinion that that is where the pirate buses have
come into operation.

Now I have nothing against a pirate bus or its
owner because the gentleman got his money from
somewhere, probably worked for it or won it, and
would not like to see it lost; but I feel they should
comply with the law, and it is noticeable especially
with these pirate buses that they do lots of over -
loading. Of course, the more passengers they carry,
the more they stand to gain; but in overloading there
is the danger of accidents occurring. This, in my
opinion, should be looked after strictly by the Police,
but, maybe, the Police are part-owners for all we
know or have good friends operating some of these
pirate buses.

People who want to get to work on mornings
would like to know that at the regular hour they can
go out and get a bus to carry them there. On many
occasions'you see a bus stopped at the side of the
road and maybe the driver and conductor are there,
and on enquiring what is wrong, you get no reply. If
you ask whether they have sent to get another bus or
informed the Transport Board that this bus is not in
order, you get no answer. This happens especially
with the Transport buses because most people feel
that as long as a thing is owned by the Government,
they have a right to do as they please, and that is
why I say that one of the hazards in the Transport
Board is the operational service, and the regular
contacts which should be made to let people know
what is taking place.

The Minister has assured us that the money re-
quested here is for the workshop as set out in the
Addendum, and I do hope that these buses which we
have, especially some of the new ones which were
put on the road not long ago, will be properly ser-
viced. It is surprising how some people can get some
engines to last them for years, and some new ones
bought by the Government can break down so easily.









1739


That is why I feel that if the maintenance at the
Transport Board is of the highest order, we would
always have buses available. Sometimes there are
no buses to supplement the ones that have broken
down because they are awaiting repairs so I hope
that with this Resolution for $226,600 we would see
better servicing and the workshop accommodation
brought up to a very high standard, and everyone
there would be quite satisfied both inside as well as
outside.

There was a point made by a former speaker
about offices that are to be built. I do remember that
when the building housing the present Transport
Board was built, there were many questions posed
in here by a sitting member, but Ido hope that Gov-
ernment will use competent judges in having these
offices built so that there will be no cracks or sink-
ing of land, so that money will not be wasted.

Moving on to the second part of the Resolution
about water, this is a commodity which every house-
holder would like to have at his disposal. I think this
Government has done a very good job in enabling
people to get water in their homes. The Minister
has outlined the amount of gallons used daily, and
he also spoke about wastage. As a boy there was al-
ways the term about wasting water, but actually I did
not consider it in the same light as the Minister spoke
of wasting water. I feel that the amount of water
which is being used daily now is due to the amount of
services that have been installed, and of course there
are some people who are not so strict in having their
taps locked off and not dripping. We have a good sup-
ply of water here, and technicians came down and
proved this to us. We have tapped water in the Sweet
Vale area because we have a very good spring there
and the Government is building reservoirs. At pre-
ent a reservoir is being erected at Rising Sun Hill
in Christ Church so that the people in that area can
benefit. One was recently put at Lodge Hill to en-
hance the position for the people there, and where-
ever possible the Minister is giving the necessary
assistance.

I feel, Mr. Chairman, that the amount requested
here, though a large sum, would help to replace or
instal mains in those areas which have not benefitted
from the use of water and let them have this useful
commodity. I heard the Minister say that he is in-
terested in the subject of water. We both have had
the opportunity to be on an island where they did not
have rain-4fr over six months, and the water supply
was rather scarce. Water had to be brought in by
tankers, and that is probably why the Minister is al-
ways urging members both of the Government and
of the other side to remind people to close their
taps. He no doubt has this particular island in mind,
because the Government had to use a desalinization
plant which operates in Florida as well as in one of
ourWest Indian Islands. I do hope we will neverhave
to use them here, because I have tasted some of the
water and it does not taste like our genuine water.

Mr. Chairman, I support the Minister in asking
members both on the other side aswell as on the Gov-


ernment side to make sure that the best use is put
to the water supply we have. With those remarks I
feel that this Resolution is a worthy one which we
should be all pleased to have here for the benefit of
the people of Barbados.
5.20 p.m.

Mr. WEEKES: Mr. Chairman, I did not intend
to speak on this Resolution, but owing to the incon-
venience and hardship which the residents of certain
districts in the parish of St. Philip are experiencing
(MEMBERS: We cannot hearthe hon. member.) I feel
that it is my duty to draw to the attention of the Min-
ister the hardship and the inconvenience which the
residents of certain districts in my constituency
must face. The Minister has mentioned that he has
been told that a woman in my constituency who has
water at her home left her home owing to the fact
that her husband had instructed her not to take the
hose off the pipe, and she went to someone else's
home in order to get water. I would say that in re-
spectof the wastage of water, that is not done in any
particular parish. I would say that if water is being
wasted, it is wasted throughout the island.

Now, Sir, there are certain par's of St. Philip
which do not get water regularly. The districts are
Wellhouse, Bayley's and Merricks. At Bayley's
School, I think, a tank had to be erected so that the
school child:-en can have water daily. The people in
these districts have been complaining regularly to
me and to the other representative of the parish. I
must let the Minister know that taking into consid-
eration the fact that you have Hampton Pumping Sta-
tion in the parish of St. Philip, it is my opinion that
something should be done to alleviate this hardship
which these people must face.

In dealing with item 21 Additional mains and
standposts I think that the time has come when I
must let the Minister know that people in the parish
of St. Philip are very dissatisfied with regard to the
extension of mains. They feel that since the Council
has been abolished, that parish has been neglected,
(Cheers) and I would be failing in my duty if I did
not let this Committee know that the time has come
when something should be done for the people in the
parish. I deem it my duty to draw that to the atten-
tionof the Minister a-d I hope that he will do some-
thing for the people in my constituency. (Cheers) I
cannot afford to come here weekly aid allow the Op-
position to put forward the case for their various
constituencies and I sit here and do not explain the
grievances of my people. It is the duty of the Minis-
terto know the problems of that parish I am appeal-
ing to him to do his utmost for us. (Cheers)

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I have
not got a very long contribution to make on this
Resolution. What I am worried about is that this is
only the end of June. We are just two months away
from the Estimates and how is it that the financial
procedures in the Ministry of Communications and
Works are in such a disarray and disorder that we
have the spectacle during March of a supplementary
vote for over $220,000 for add.Ltional mains









1740


and standposts and very similar matters relating,
to water, some of which has been spent even before
the House voted the money? Hon. members will no
doubt recall the very ugly incident in which the Prime
Minister sought to justify it, and I will really con-
gratulate the Ministerof Communications and Works
on being absent from the House at the time, because
there was no justification for the overspending be-
fore the House had passed the money, just as there
was no justification for passing the money when
clearly, in a fortnight, a quarter million dollars was
not going to be spent by the Waterworks Department
on mains and standposts. One presumes, Mr. Chair-
man, that the most of this money had, in fact, lapsed
and repaid to the Treasury. I was not present, un-
fortunately,when the Minister introduced this Reso-
lution this morning and I do not know if he made any
reference to this being, in a sense, a part revote of
a lapsed vote. If it is, he should not have made a
reference to this fact. If it is not, no doubt, he will
correct me when he comes to make his reply. How
is it, Mr. Chairman, that Item 21 Additional Mains
and Standposts and Item 22 Replacement of Mains
- in the Capital Estimates were only for $65,000 in
March and now we are asked to spend more than a
quarter million dollars? Mr. Chairman, any accoun-
tant in any company whose estimates, whose cost-
ings or planning were so poor, would be fired. The
accountant would be fired and perhaps the Managing
Director would be fired and, after all, the Minister
stands in the Managing Director's shoes as far as
the Waterworks are concerned.

What kind of supervision, what kind of oversight
is beingexercised in the Ministry of Communications
and Works if they cannot make their figures balance
at the end of the year? If now, when it comes to re-
ceiving the money they ask for- $65,000- they
find that they need a quarter million dollars, that
is bad Government; that is a badly-run Ministry.
We have had some contributions from hon. mem-
bers on both sides of the House and for all con-
stituencies, and I am glad to see that the parishes
of St. Philip and St. George are at long last giving
the appearance of getting representation, notwith-
standing the fact that they have not returned mem-
bers of our Party on this occasion to this Honourable
House I am glad to see that these great parishes
are getting their affairs attended to.
5.30 p.m.

I think I am right in saying that for a long time
the principal voice to be raised for St. George in
here was that of the hon. senior member for St.
James who got some dusty answers when trying to
get roads in Drax Hall and Ellerton. I am glad to
see that those whom they sent to represent them
have at long last found their voices and that a Par-
liamentary Secretaryship has not entirely closed
up the voice of the former Chairman of the Southern
Council, the hon. senior member for St. Philip.

I am glad to observe that remarks have been
made to the effect that many people are saying that
since the Council has been abolished certain things
have not been done. These remarks reflect criti-


cisms that we on this side of the House made in this
House and on public platforms. We are willing to
welcome to our ranks those members in that re-
spect, and I dare say at any time.

I think that both sides of the House have made
a useful contribution. We know that the Minister of
Communications and Works likes to see mains laid
down. He believes in water, even if he does not like
to see young ladies with dirty feet washing them un-
der the standpipe. He will know what I mean by that.


In spite of that, we had in the Capital Estimates
this yearforthis purpose an amount of $65,000. How
can it be that it now needs In another couple of
months a supplementary estimate of almost five
times that amount? What control has he got over his
Ministry if he cannot do better than that?

The note says that the provision under these
items in the current estimates has been fully com-
mitted on the approved programme of work. If you
propose to spend $30,000, how can we spendthe
$30,000 in the first month and a half, when the
$30,000 was supposed to last a year?


What is the Cabinet thinking of? Is it that the
Cabinet cut down on the Minister's original estimate?
What kind of Cabinet have you got that now agrees to
put back this amount? Is this a Government by com-
monsense or Government by standing on your head
and kicking your feet in the air? We must have some
sensible approach to the finances of this country. If
only $8 million could be afforded on the entire Capi-
tal Estimates, how is it that a supplementary amount
of $500,000 is now being sought within a couple of
months? What was the point of such a small estimate
in the first place?

Mr. Chairman, I will vote for the Resolution
unless the Minister gets up and says something ex-
ceptional about whether it is going to be spent and
what is being asked for. I want to be assured that it
will improve the water services for all people of
this island, the water services in all parishes.

I heard something aboutwater being taken away
from St. Joseph and carried to St. Thomas. I know
that Shop Hill cannot get water in the crop season.
I can tell you that we need water in St. Thomas. I
know that architects have advised the people who
wanted to build homes in Shop Hill that the water
situation is so bad that even if they should involve
themselves in the expense of special tanks and other
special arrangements they will have difficulty of
getting water in their dwellings.

Even if some of the water comes from St. Joseph,
to St. Thomas I am sorry for St. Joseph, but we
should not be lead into the belief that water in St.
Thomas is adequate. Welchman Hall is the wettest
place in Barbados, but has got to rely on the rain.
I am not going over all that again. Mr. George Best
has been rinsed out in this House once, and there is
no use rinsing him out a second time. In any case,









1741


I understand that since the last rinsing he has been
put through the wringer by his close friend, the Min-
ister, and his activities have diminished and the
situation with the people in Welchman Hall has im-
proved somewhat. The Minister is correct. I am
glad to see that he is controlling Mr. Best and al-
lowing the residents of Welchman Hall to get water.
I have Mr. Eversely to deal with Mr. Best and the
Minister.

Now, Mr. Chairman, with respect td additional
mains and standposts and the replacement of mains,
we are told that the new Development Plan will in-
clude an extensive programme for the further de-
velopment of the water services. I understand that
the Plan is awaiting the passage of the Town and
Country Planning Bill which is to come before us
today or in the immediate future.

It should have been published long ago. The
Minister must have known of the new Development
Plan which would include an extensive programme
for the further development of the water services
and he should have been taking that into account all
along. I do not believe that the Plan will be a sur-
prise to the Minister. It should have come to him
for approval at some stage at least two years ago.

The Minister should have been planning all
along to correlate the conversion of the Development
Plan with the finances necessary to carry on the
activities therein set out.

With those remarks, as I have said, I will sup-
port the Resolution; but I would not support the Min-
ister as a good Minister. We are called upon today
to cast our vote for the Resolution in these terms;
but it is a bad administration, bad supervision of a
Department which has caused a supplementary
Resolution such as this to come before the House.
Only a bad Minister could find himself in this po-
sition.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, I really do
not know if I should reply or just ask that the ques-
tion be put; but there were some remarks made
earlier in the day which I would like to clarify be-
cause they were erroneous and misleading. One
was about where the senior member for St. Joseph
talked aboutwater, andhe said that there was some-
body using an enormous amount of water for wash-
ingdown he saidhe was told that somebody close-
closely connected to me or to this side or to the
Government was using an enormous amount of water
for washing down pig pens.

Well, to set the record straight on that, if he
is referring to the Prime Minister, at the Prime
Minister's home there is a well and a fan mill and
tankto supply any amount of water for washing down
pens.
5.40 p.m.

People must not get up in this Chamber for the.
sake of debate and try, as the last speaker who has
just sat down has tried, to make out a case, because


he has fallen flat on his face. He has just said that I
am a bad Minister. All right, I am a bad Minister,
but I am a Minister. He was a good Minister, but he
is not a Minister now. Today is where the difference
comes in. I, honestly, thought that the members on
the opposite side of the House would have asked
something pertinent to the Resolution which is be-
fore the House.

Now the senior member for the City made a big
hullabaloo; asked for information, and then left. No-
body on this side, as far as I know, has any intention.
of withholding any information from this Chamber. I
do not have anything to hide. When I first introduced
the Resolution for $226,600, the Marshal was not in
his place. I have the plans here, and whoever wants
to see them may do so. I will give them to the Mar-
shal. I just want hon. members on the other side to
understand that whenever I come here with anything
I am capable of taking care of myself. Do not let
anybody on the opposite side fool himself that this
is any Court with a junior female Magistrate in it
that he can bully his way through. I have warned the
senior member for St. Thomas about his bullying
tactics. Whenever he meets me, I intend to repulse
him with heavy losses.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On a point of order.
There has only been one female junior Magistrate
and she was an Officer administering the law. I
think there is a Standing Order which says that re-
flection should not be cast on those persons. I am
quite serious about it; he can say what he likes
about me. It would be held, I think, to be offensive
by any Magistrate to have a suggestion made that
lawyers bully their way through the Courts because
there is a female Magistrate in the Court.


Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, apparently
the only place in the world that has female lawyers,
or femaleMagistrates, is Barbados, and, apparently,
the only place that some people can practise their
profession and get away with impunity is in Barba-
dos. The senior member for St. Thomas must un-
derstand that when he is talking to me, he is talking
to someone who, though not going to any University
- thank God for that, because if all the University
can putout are people like him, then I am extremely
glad I did not attend one. I have attended the Uni-
versity of the world.


I know what is beating the hon. senior member
for St. Thomas. His idea about defence is to be of-
fensive and to attack. As I have already told him,
my skin is thick; he cannot pierce my skin quickly.
He may say something in here and I may retort,
but it does not necessarily mean that he had been
able to hurt me. I brush him off as I would a fly.
Getting back to the matter before the Committee, I
have sent around the plans for the Transport Board
so that members can see them. As I have said, there
is nothing I wish to hide. Even if we were to hide the
plans, when the building is built he would still see
it. We could notwalk about with it ifi our hip pockets.









1742


The senior members for St. Joseph and Christ
Church made some very pertinent points when they
asked me to say where we were going to put down
these mains. I will give the Committee a breakdown:

Additional mains and standposts location St.
Michael.

Pine Hill ... 820 ft. of main
Advent Avenue, Bank Hall 880 ft. of main
Browne's Gap, Jackmans 952 ft. of main
Flint Hall ... 1,050 ft. of main
Bedford Lane and Green Field 720 ft. of main
Storey Gap, Codrington Hill 845 ft. of main

Christ Church -

I am sure the hon. senior member for Christ Church
will stop stroking the pump now. I hope he has
enough water flowing for the time he was stroking
the pump, and that he will not break off the lever.


St. George, Green's Tenantry
St. Thomas ...
St. Thomas ...


1,050 ft. of main
700 ft. of main
7 00 ft. of main


St. John ...

There will be a standpipe at Hothersal Tenantry.
(ASIDES)
Now the senior member for St. Joseph was
saying something andhe should not have said it, be-
cause he knows that it was not fair to make such a
statement. He is saying that he does not get an ade-
quate supply of water. He knows that I have spent
$10,000 to run a water main from Bloomsbury Cor-
ner over the hill where he lives, in order that he
may be supplied more adequately. Whenever he has
these problems he always speaks to me personally.
He said, "Box, things have not improved." I called
the Waterworks Department and suggested that the
valve on the other end may be opened too much, and
asked that something be done to assist the senior
memberfor St. Joseph. He knows as well as I do that
the elevation at the top of Sugar Hill is at the same
level as Castle Grant and, therefore, it is always
difficult of get water. The water comes out of these
reservoirs by way of gravity. You also have a water
problem in Brittons Hill although you will find two
reservoirs there.

Sir, the problem is that the people who live near
the reservoir are on the same level as the reser-
voir. It must be remembered that the water flows
out of the reservoir by gravity, and that is why we
always look for a hill to put a reservoir on. Since
the water comes out by way of gravity, you gene-
rally get a lower supply of water in some of these
mains. We have spent $10,000 to run a water main
from Bloomsbury Corner to take water to the house
of the seniormember for St. Joseph as well as those
who live in that area.
5.50 p.m.

Can anyone justifiably come into this Chamber
and make the people of this country believe that I as


a Minister would try to withhold water from some-
body who is paying to get it piped in? That is not a
fair assessment. Anyway the hon. member asked
what we are doing about the Castle Grant Reservoir.
I said that a lot of water is being wasted and that is
one of the problems. If we allowed each person in a
home 75 gallons of waterper day, they could not use
it all, because they would soon tire of bathing. What
has happened, as the hon. member knows, is that we
have allbecome a bit more sophisticated, and where
years ago a person would only take a monthly bath,
nowadays you get him taking a regular weekly bath,
and the other person who took a weekly bath is now
takingone twice a day, morning and evening; so you
must use more water. More water has been installed
in the premises of people, and that is why we get
this problem. We cannot build a reservoir in Castle
Grant forgood reasons, and not because, as the hon.
member said, it is too expensive. This Government
does not consider anything too expensive so long as
it is beneficial to the residents of the country; but
we do not have the land area. What we propose doing
at Castle Grantis to spend $175,000 to put in bigger
mains, and we will pump water from Golden Ridge
to Castle Grant, which means that although more
people will be using more water from that reser-
voir, the supply will be able to cope with the de-
mands.

Only this morning, Mr. Chairman, I saw a man
goto a pipe in Beckles Road. He was in an invalid's
chair, and he had a bottle in which he wanted to
catch water, and he opened the pipe to its utmost
as though the bottle would not have been filled if the
pipe was running slowly. He removed the bottle and
corked it, and all the time the water was running,
and then he began to wash his face. I am sure this
is what happens in nearly every home. When I was a
child, an ox-cart skillet or water gave me a full
bath. Nowadays it takes more water to wash a spoon
than to wash a whole household of clothes. People
are not mindful of these things because they simply
do not know where the water is coming from and
they could not care less. They feel they are paying
for it every quarter, and that is the end of it. I know
how much is used when I see the bill for the elec-
tricity used, and when the Chief Engineer tells me
that the table is getting low. We do not want this to
happen to our country because Barbados is a one-
crop economy and the next thing we depend on is
tourism. If we run short of water, no tourist is go-
ing to come here to walk about with a bucket to
catch water.
Itisafacttoo, Mr. Chairman, that quite a num-
ber of small homes use more water than big homes,
because when a person goes out to take a bath, once
he opens the pipe he is not locking it off again until
he is ready to dry his skin. These are things we
have to educate people about, because if one out of
every three persons does this, the reservoirs must
be depleted, and the pumps cannot cope with keeping
the demand up. Quite a lot of water is used in the
St. James area. Another place that uses an enor-
mous amount of water is the Hospital; but what can
we do? All we can do is to ask people to conserve
water as much as possible.









1743


With respect to St. James, we have two new
wells to come in: one at the end of St. Michael and St.
Thomas by Applewhaite, and two in the lower pa-
rishes, one at Molyneux and one at Alleynedale, and
as soon as we get these wells in, the residents of St.
James as well as of the whole area to the North
would be alleviated of their suffering. Only yesterday
I passed through St. James and found that the pipe,
just before you got to John Moore's had the cock
completely off. Another pipe near the Fire Station
wanted a washer. Nobody takes time to report these
things; so Ihave todo this; yet people will come and
quarrel and say that because of so-and-so you are
cutting off their water. As I said before, it is the
leaders who must tell people of their responsibili-
ties to the community and stop fooling ourselves
because of a vote.

Now the hon. senior member for Bridgetown
made enquiries and left. He enquired what we were
going to do with the old Social Welfare Office which
was formerly part of the old Combermere School
building. Everybody knows that that building is a
hazard; so we are prepared to take it down because
itis really aneye-sore in any case, and erect a new
building.

Before I sit down, Mr. Chairman, I should like
to say that members on the opposite side were talk-
ing about the old buses. There is no doubt that we
have quite anumberof old buses, and the hon. senior
memberfor St. Joseph said that if he were Minister
he wouldfeel ashamed to see these buses on the road.
I am the Minister and I feel ashamed, but I am not
taking them off because we have no replacements
for them at the moment. As is always said, a bad
boy is better than no boy at all, and nobody in his
right senses throws away dirty water until he catches
clean one, because dirty water can still put out a
fire. So we have to keep the old buses and patch
them as much as we possibly can until we get other
buses to replace them.

Now the hon. senior member for St. Philip was
complaining about water in his constituency. He is
a member of the Legislature and he has a right to
complain, but he also has a right to state that I
think in the last financial year $30,000 were spent
toputwater inone area alone. These are things that
nobody will mention. As Andy Capp would say, every
job has its occupational hazards.

I think I have answered all the pertinent ques-
tion that were placed before me; but if there are
any which I did not remember to answer, it is not
because I am dodging from them, and I would be
quite willing to reply if any member wants to raise
them.
6.00 p.m.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, I have no intention
of making any speech oi this Resolution, but I would
like the Minister, while he is on this Resolution,
more or less to elaborate or explain this to me. He
said that in the parish of St. James they are plan-
ning to dig these wells and that that would alleviate


the waterproblems inSt. James. If he says that they
are going to dig these wells, would the Minister give
is any idea as to how soon they will dig these wells?
Other places are having water mains and you know,
Mr. Chairman, that a man telephoned the Minister
at half-past four one morning telling him that he has
not got any water. I would like the Minister to make
this matter a little clearer.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, the hon.
member should be ashamed 1o mention in the House
that a man telephoned me at 4 o'clock in the morn-
ing telling me that he had no water. (ASIDES) I told
you that, but I think it is unfair. I did not say any-
thing about digging wells in St. James. I said that we
have a well at Applewhaite, we have one at Moly-
neux aid we have one at Alleynedale which are al-
most completed. When you dig a well for water,
sometimes you go down and you feel that you will
get water. Just as in the case of oil, you get water,
but you do not get the flow of water which you would
expect to satisfy the reservoir. What we usually do
is to go across under che earth in order to see if we
can find the vein so that more waterwill flow in. That
is what has been taking place at Applewaite and
Alleynedale. (ASIDES) Tiey are nearly completed.
The well from Applewhaite will throw water in
fact, we intend to run a pipe-line from Applewhaite
down to the reservoir at Cave Hill. That will take
off a lot of the pressure.

We also have a well at the corner of Codrington
which is supplying the reservoir at Lodge Hill right
now. When we get all these other wells coming in, it
means that we will have a better water supply, and
we will be able to lay a better trunk main coming
from Alleynedale in order to keep the flow of water
fo- the residents in St. Peter, St. James and St.
Lucy more water than you can use.

Mr. HINDS: M-. Chairman, the Minister made
mention of the old buses and he said that he is not
goingto remove them until he has replacements for
them. I wonder if that would promp: the Minister to
make a statement as to the Government's intention
about the mini-buses or the pick-ups. Let us hear
something about them.

(A PA USE)

Mr. Chairman, if that is the Minister's attitude,
then the question is not going to be put. I have asked
the Minister something which he should normally
bewillingto answer. The question of the mini-buses
has been mentioned in the Report of the General
Manager of the Transport Board. He has charged
these mini-buses with deliberately depriving the
Transport Board of passengers. I have made out a
case here where they are not depriving the Board
of passengers in the way that the Manager has said.
I would like to hear what the Government intends to
do. Must I understand from the Minister's lack of
action that it is too thorny a problem for the Minis-
ter to handle? Why can't the Minister answer that?
Why can't he tell the mini-bus operators what to
expect?









1744


Hon. N. W. BOXILL: I will say that they are op-
erating illegally. The majority of the mini-buses
which are operating on Route 21 and Route 24 are
operating illegally. There were some mini-buses or
pirate buses as they were called, the owners of
which had licenses to operate. There are some mini-
buses which are allowed to operate pirate buses,
as they are called. The Government realized that
the mini-buses as appears in the Statement of Trans-
port Board, have been a source of headaches to the
Transport Board for the simple reason that in Febru-
ary the Transport Board lost $26,000. What do these
buses do? Some of the owners had licenses for routes
on which they would operate, but they get bolder now
and they go to the buses and tell the passengers:
"We are going now; are you going with us?" And the
people will get into these mini-buses which do not
run on any Schedule. If you want a Statement, the
mini-buses are operating in the Island illegally.
Those which have the sign "Taxi" written on them
are licensed to carry the same number of persons
as a taxi, that is: five or six according to the size.
The others have the sign "Taxi" written on them
and they are being loaded downwith twenty or twenty-
four persons, and so they are operating illegally.
The passengers are also riding at a risk because if
they get in an accident, I do not know how they will
claim from the people because the Insurance Com-
pany will most likely say: "We did not insure you
for that." What I would say, is this: the reason why
some people use the mini-buses is not because the
service of the Transport Board is inadequate, but
because some of these mini-buses will travel to the
homes of the people and collect them there with
their baskets and so on. That is all it is.

Mr. CRAIG: Mr. Chairman, I would not like to
hold up the business of the Committee, but if the
Minister states that these mini-buses are running
illegally, what is the Government doing about these
illegally-rui mini-buses? What is the actual policy?
Are these mini-buses doing a service to the Com-
munity or are they doing a disservice to the com-
munity. If they are being run illegally, then the
Police would be at fault. But what is the Ministry
doing about this? What is the Ministry, which con-
trols the Police, doing about it? I feel that since the
Minister said that there are some buses which are
not in very good shape but you cannot take them off
the road, why not give the mini-buses which are
now being operated illegally, the right to carry ten
or sixteen passengers or such as they could carry,
instead of five? That would give you an opportunity
until you can get your fleet of buses operating pro-
perly. It is as simple as that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I (ASIDES)


Mr. CHAIRMAN: I have heard an hon. member
shout across the Table calling another hon. mem-
ber by his name. I am sure that that hon. member
knows the Standing Orders. Let the hon. junior
member for St. Peter proceed.
6.10 p.m.
Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, Sir, I do not want
to prolong this debate, but I wonder if the Minister


knows how many mini-buses there are at present
operating in the island legally or illegally or both.
That is very, very important. In other words, we
know that the Minister would have within his files
how many buses the Elite Motor Bus Company is
operating, and he would know how many buses the
Rocklyn Bus Company is operating. We know that
the Transport Board had a fleet of 97 buses at one
time. We do not know what it is now, but the Minis-
ter will have the information in his possession.

Here in this Report of the General Manager of
the Transport Board he tells us that during the year
ending the 30th September, 1965 14,638,275 passen-
gers, including 1,260,638 school children, were
carried as against the amount in the previous year.
So the Minister would have this knowledge in his
files as to the amount of persons on all routes
throughout the island that are depending on the bus

services.

The Minister would then be able to evaluate so
to speak, that is, he would know whether on this
particular route this particular concessionaire with
his number of units can cope with the situation in
his area. Similarly with the Transport Board; so
that if you add the number of buses of the three
concessionaires and take into account the number of
passengers that are likely to travel, you will be in
a position to know whether these units can meet the
demand.

On the other hand, if you are saying that mini-
buses are operating on a particular route and de-
priving the Transport Board or, for that matter,
any other concessionaire of revenue, the Minister
would certainly have in his possession somewhere
the number of mini-buses on Route 1, 1A, 1B and
1C or as the Minister recently made mention, on
two other routes. It seems as if I did not make a
note at that particular time, but those routes were
mentioned, and the Minister should know how many
mini-buses are causing this trouble, especially if
they are running illegally.

The Minister should have in his possession the
number of passenger buses, those that are licensed
to carry passengers and those that have been carry-
ing passengers in exceptional cases. I am just ask-
ing the Minister if he knows how many mini-buses
we have operating throughout the island. We know
that recently a number of these mini-bus operators
made a petition to the Minister. I would like to hear
what the Minister has to say in regard to these
buses so that we may be able to have a true picture
of the extent to which they are causing the Trans-
port Board and perhaps the other concessionaires
to lose revenue.

Mr. Chairman, if the Minister will not answer,
I will have to talk and talk until he does answer. I
can cause the Minister to answer. I am not here
begging the Minister for a bunch of green bananas.
The Minister knows as well as ever all right, Sir,
this is not a matter of sport. I do not know if the
Minister knows what is a reasonable question from
what is an unreasonable one.









1745


We have here before us a Report from the Gen-
eral Manager of the Transport Board that pirate
buses are operating on Routes 1, 1A, IB, 1C and IF
and have caused on Route 1 a twelve per cent decrease
and due to their operations on Route 21, a 24 per
centdecrease. He also goes on to tell us that of late
there has been an increase in a number of these
mini-buses.

Good Father, Mr. Chairman, are we not entitled
to know from the Minister if he has the knowledge,
that in 1965 when this Report, for instance, was
written, that there were so many mini-buses that
were causing trouble or loss of revenue to the Trans-
port Board or to other concessionaires?

This is now 1968 and the Minister would have
had this information in his files. He should have the
knowledge of to what extent mini-buses are really
and truly affecting the concessionaires who have a
responsibility to the community. For instance, to
what extent are these mini-buses really affecting
the concessionaires? I do not see how the Minister
could seem to believe, seem to dream or expect -
we understand that the Minister is not willing to
make a statement of Government's policy regarding
these mini-buses. We understand that; but it is only
reasonable to ask the Minister if he knows how many
mini-buses are now operating throughout the island,
and to what extent the Transport Board and the
other concessionaires are suffering due to the pres-
ence of these mini-buses.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: The question is......

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I have got to draw
to your attention one other point on this particular
matter. It comes under the question of discipline on
the buses as mentioned by the General Manager of
the Transport Board, and it would seem as if I
might begin to unbutton my coat and get ready for
making my speech on this Resolution.

I am sure that the Chairman is ready to stop
me the moment that he finds it necessary to do so.
Now, the Minister went on to tell us he called
names like Benjie, Sonny Lou and some others who
operate pick-ups or mini-buses, but it did not suit
him to call the names of all.

I understood him to say that when he came into
politics he found that certain of these operators have
been operating a service, whether by agreement or
otherwise. The position is this then, Mr. Chairman,
that when they took over they found mini-buses op-
erating and they continued to operate. They have
since, as I know it, given some of them permission
to carry more than the normal amount of passen-
gers. Some of them can carry 22 passengers in
these mini-buses.
6.20 p.m.

Sir, if they had been licensed as cabs or taxis,
as some others have done, they could only have
carried six passengers. Now the Minister ought to
be in a position to tell us whether those who have


permission to carry as many as twenty or twenty-
two are operating legally; what prompted him to
legalise the operations; and why is it that he cannot
find it possible, or has not found it possible to
legalise the operations of all?

I do not mind what the Minister or anybody else
has to say. The Minister touched on a very good
point: that these mini-buses sometimes take pas-
sengers to their homes with their packages in some
cases. (An hon. Member: Who said so?) Is that
something to be angry about? Is it that you do not
want the drivers of mini-buses to operate, because
they will take passengers and their packages to their
homes? If the mini-buses are operating illegally,
are we to understand that these people do not pay
taxes?Are we to understand that they do not pay for
registering their motor vehicles? I am sure that
they do. Are the drivers of these vehicles not hol-
ders of drivers' licenses? I am sure that they all
have licences.

If we find that these people are not operating
legally, the Minister should be able to tell us in
what respects their operations are illegal. The mere
presence of a mini-bus on the road does not make
it illegal. The Minister agrees with me that the
people who travel on the mini-buses run a grave
risk, because in the event of their becoming involved
in an accident the passengers are likely to suffer,
and the consequences can be grave if they are not
covered fully by insurance. All of these are things
which any Government should be taking into con-
sideration. We want the Minister to make a State-
ment on the operation of these mini-buses. The
mini-buses should all be legalised if it is known, as
we know on this side of the House, that they are per-
forming a good service.

Mr. Chairman, if we used to award a Gold
Medal in that particular sphere of operation, I can
tell you that the service that these mini-buses are
rendering entitles many of the operators to Gold
Medals. (Hon. N. W. BOXILL: If we were giving Gold
Medals for going to prison, you would have been
granted a few.) Mr. Chairman, I could have landed
the Minister in gaol for receiving a bunch of stolen
bananas.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: That is no part of the Resolu-
tion under discussion.

Mr. HINDS: The Minister knows I am not lying.
I know the Minister must become increasingly
aroused, the more I talk on this matter. We are
going to hear a lot of things before I am finished.
The Minister can sit there and talk, but I dare him
to get on his feet this evening and make a Statement
about mini-buses. The Minister knows that if he
makes a Statement, he and his Government will go.
They cannot touch the mini-buses. All they can do
is to tell the Police to report them. Mr. Hill, the
Manager of the Transport Board, said that the at-
tention of the Police has been drawn to it. The po-
lice know that some of the policemen cannot get on
their jobs ontime unless they get transport on these









1746


mini-buses. The same mini-buses are loaded day after
day carrying Police food as well as things for
nurses. Are you going to tell the Police to do things
that will prevent them from getting their breakfast?
Are you making sport? When the Police go hounding
these drivers, they are hurting their brothers who
are rendering yeoman service to this community.

The Minister admitted here that the buses at the
Transport Board are so bad in other words, it is
better to have a bad bus on the road than no bus at
all. That is his admission here. In the face of that
admission, I challenge the Minister to get on this now
and say that they are going to touch these mini-buses
that ply for hire on Routes 21, 24, or any other Route
They will not touch them at all.

The Minister admitted that when they took office
they found some of these buses operating. Were they
operating illegally? What has gone wrong since then?
Mr. Chairman, it has just come to mind that you have
a wealth of experience in this particular field, and
were you not in the Chair, you could have brought
that experience into our deliberations today and saved
the Minister much embarrassment. (ASIDES.) The
Minister, perhaps, like some people cannot get sense
outside. He wants gaoling, and he will get sense in
there. Thatis right. Mr. Chairman, you know as well
as Ido thatno man is goingto take up his few dollars,
or go to a garage and credit a mini-bus and put it on
a route unless he knows what he is doing.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, on a point
of order. He would not even listen to me.

Mr. HINDS: What is the shorthand writer doing
here? He is just a servant of the House; he has no
right to beckon to the Chairman; he is not part and
parcel of this. Mr. Chairman, what I was saying is...

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, I rose on a
point of order. The hon. member said just now that I
want gaoling. I take objection to that. As a Minister
of the Government, I would not allow him to come in
here and use offensive remarks to people in this
House. I am asking thai the hon. member be made to
withdraw the remarks. I beg to move that the ques-
tion be now put.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Would the hon. member for St.
Thomas repeat specifically the words to which he
has objected?
6.30 p.m.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: What I was saying, Mr.
Chairman, was that in his harangue just now the hon.
member said that the Minister, referring to me,
wants gaoling. I take offence to that and I ask that he
be made to withdraw the statement.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, the Report of the
Manager of the Transport Board is sufficiently en-
lightening. Why do I say sol

Mr. CIHARMAN: The hon. junior member for St.
Thomas has objected to the words used by the hon.


junior member for St. Peter as being offensive and
unparliamentary. I rule that they are, and I am ask-
ing the hon. member to withdraw them.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I must tell you that I
did not use the words that the Hon. Minister com-
plained of.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I will get the Official Report
from the Reporter.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, if you want me to
withdraw the words he has complained of, whether I
said them or not, I withdraw.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: The hon. junior member for
St. Peter may continue.

Mr. HINDS: I will continue now by reading the
full Report of the General Manager of the Transport
Board, because it is pertinent to this Resolution; so
gird your loins, stiffen your backs and sit down.

Mr. Chairman, the General Manager of the Trans-
port Board in his Report to the Chairman and mem-
bers of the Board had this to say: he said that his
Report is based on his interpretation of the records
and on his observations during the last five months
of the year, he having assumed office on the 16th
April, 1965. He went on. He too lamented that the Au-
ditor's Report and Balance Sheet were not available.
This is the General Manage c of the Transport Board
writing to the Chairman and members of the Board.

However, he said that the following figures quoted
have been taken from the operational accounts which
have been audited. So throughout this Report the Man-
ager is dealing not with the figures contained in this
particular Balance Sheet; they bear no relation what-
soever, but he is basing his findings on the figures
taken from the operational accounts of the Trans-
port Board. Now he tells us that the year's working
shows a direct operational surplus of $179,112,51.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, on a point
of order, as this matter has been fully debated be-
fore, I beg to move under Standing Order No. 32 that
the Question be now put.
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to second that.

The question that the question be now put was put and re-
solved in the affirmative without division.

The question that the Resolution for $482,345 do now pass
was put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 1968-69 No. 5
Head 22 Ministry of External Affairs was called.
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I think that
hon. members will remember that before this coun-
try became independent, during the days of the Fed-
eration and subsequently, Barbados was represented
in Associate Membership in UNESCO, the Federa-
tion itself actingon behalf of all the territories. Then
we were only entitled to Observer status at the Gen-
eral Conference and could receive assistance, how-
ever, under certain programmes, Independent Nations









1747


are no longer eligible for Associate Membership, but
can assume full membership whenever they wish to,
and consequently it is proposed that Barbados apply
some time this year for a contribution of some
$7,224, U.S.

I beg to move that Head 22 Ministry of Exter-
nal Affairs stand part.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, if this
is the Resolution for $19,068, I was wondering how
comewe did not hear from the Minister of Communi-
cations and Works. I do not think anybody can quar-
rel as far as the first part is concerned, which I take
more properly concerns the Hon. Leader of the House.
I think we can take it that all members of the House
will welcome the fact that Barbados is now to join
UNESCO. It is a bit tardy indeed, Mr. Chairman. If
the Government was really so determined at the be-
ginning of 1966 that Barbados should be independent
in 1966, one would have thought that instead of the
sterile and time-wasting political debates in which
they engaged for so long, they would have got down to
the serious business of planning what Independence
actually meant. After all, it was widely accepted in
London that the only delegation which really had a
serious and knowledgeable approach within its own
ranks as to the future international liabilities, duties
and privileges of Barbados, was the Barbados Labour
Party delegation which included Mr. Henry Forde. It
seemed that Mr. Henry Forde alone had considered
these matters, and our delegation alone had consi-
dered such matters as joining UNESCO, because there
are great benefits to be obtained from UNESCO, and
it is only now after one and a half years of Indepen-
dence that Barbados is finally joining, and we cer-
tainly welcome it. I very much hope at some stage in
the future that the Leader of the House, if it comes
withinhis part of the Foreign Affairs responsibilities,
will be able perhaps to initiate a debate or intervene
in a Foreign Affairs debate in which he can tell hon.
members some of the benefits we can expect to get
from UNESCO.
6.40 p.m.

I also congratulate my junior colleague, the Min-
ister of Communications and Works, in respect of
this item 41 Furniture and Equipment under the
Head Annexed Estimates, Post Office. It is very
gratifying that there is going to be a Philatelic Bu-
reau......

Mr. CHAIRMAN: We are now only dealing with
Head 22 Ministry of External Affairs.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: I congratulate the Hon.
Leader of the House.

The question that Head 22 stand part of the Schedule was
put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

ANNEXED ESTIMATES POST OFFICE


Annexed Estimates Post Office w as called.


Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, in connec-
tion with this item 41 Furniture and Equipment -
as the hon. senior member for St. Thomas has said,
I know that this is his pet subject, and he willbe
gratified to see that at long last we are setting up a
Philatelic Bureau. We are hoping that we can get all
the assistance in this matter because it is in its em-
bryonic stage now. What has happened is that Mr.
Bayley, the Philatelist, has agreed to show the peo-
ple here how to put on stamps and so on, and I am
hoping that this embryonic foetus will eventually grow
into a giant. I beg to move that this Head stand part
of the Schedule.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS. Vr. Chairman, we are
glad to see that a Philatelic Bureau is being estab-
'ished. When I was in London some time ago, in
more than one circle I heard of a very successful
visit paid there by the Minister of Commumications
and Works of Guyana, Mr. Correia, in which he in-
dicatedthat the Government of Guyana wa.s now bene-
fitting to the tune of over L100,000 a year from the
philatelic sa'es of stamps; and he held a Press Con-
ference which was reported not only in the Philatelic
Press of Britain, but even down here and also in the
National Press. In fact, as I was sitting in the House
this afternoon I think I iade a note of it I read
that Mr. Eugene Correia held a Press Conference on
May 3 at the West Indies Club in London, and he is
being congratulated very widely. There have been
editorials commending Guyana for its stawmp-issuing
policy and the service which is offered to collectors.
This has happened despite the fact that Guyana has
recently been the subject of one or two irregularities
andwhenI say "irregularities" I do not mean any-
thing involving dishonesty or anything like that -in
stamps. For instance, they have had temporary sur-
charges, and a very large number of stamp dealers
found themselves paying very large sums forindi-
vidual stamps, and the Guyana Government then had
them done all over again, making them available at
a cheaper price and causing a lot of stamp dealers
to lose money. I think that it is as a result of the
misfortunes involved in the Guyana overprints, per-
haps, that Mr. Correia went to London to mend his
Philatelic fences because a lot of stamp dealers in
London had invested money in obtaining stamps from
Guyana, because the services of a Philatelic Bureau
was not then available, and a lot of stamp dealers
foundthat they had been under-cut by the Government.
I know people who did it. I know of one man who paid
poor fellow, $200 a piece for. stamps which then be-
came available at $5 each, and so on. Naturally, the
stamp dealers who find themselves in this position
do not feel very happy about it. I take it that that is
one of the things which a proper Philatelic Bureau
will prevent. If there is the necessity for a tempor-
ary issue, a proper Philatelic Bureau will make sure
that nobody is robbed out of it.

After all, these people are businessmen who ae
trying to make money for us as Barbadia s. That is
what stamp dealers are. They try to make money for
Governments and, incidentally, at the time some of









1748


the money will go into their own pockets. When they
lose, they actually put off the Government concerned.
I hope that this Bureau, when set up, will prevent
things like this happening. Mr. Bayley's father is
far and away the best known Barbadian stamp col-
lector that there ever has been. For a great deal of
money Mr. Herbert Bayley amassed the best collec-
tion of Barbados stamps which has ever been amassed
in Barbados. It may not have been as good as King
George V's collection or the more expensive col-
lections in Britain, but nevertheless it was a first-
class collection here, and he was also a leading
authority on Barbados stamps. Some of his discov-
eries in the field of Barbados stamps are unique
and his son, Mr. Edmund Bayley, has inherited his
father's books and a great deal of his knowledge, I
may say, has also been picked up by him. There is
nobody who, I think, is :n'm.c: suited to advise the Post
Office on that sort of work. Indeed Mr. Herbert
Bayley carried on what was, if fact, a one-man
Philatelic Bureau in Barbados for years, and his son
is the leading man when it comes to wholesaling of
Barbados stamps to this day, and I am glad to hear
that he is going to be associated with it in this re-
spect.

Mr. Chairman, all stamp collectors are in-
terested, if they have favourite countries, in not
seeing the countries go off the deep end where it
comes to the number of stamps they issue. Taking
myself as an example, I collect stamps of all West
Indian territories, but I am now finding it impossi-
ble to collect the stamps of Grenada because in
every month or so, Grenada issues six different
stamps, that I doubt very many Grenadians see, of a
high denomination in commemorating the paintings
of Sir W:nston Churchill and a Boy Scout Jamboree
in Idaho, U.S.A., at which no Grenadian Boy Scouts
were present, the 50th anniversary of the birth of
President Kennedy the only country so to do, as
far as I know and other such issues. Nobody has
respect for that kind of stamr issuing policy 'and I.
myself intend this week to write off to my agents
in London to tell them not to send me any more
Grenada stamps. I am stopping with that. I am not
going to have my pocket racketeered, and other
people will, I am sure, also be doing that. I believe
that the Ho4. Minister is not going to be a party to
spoiling the market for Barbados stamps in this way.
I am not entirely happy with all the choices of sub-
ject which have come about, or with the publicity
which has been given to some of the choices of sub-
ject. For example, I do not think that it really has
been sufficiently explained in Britain what che cur-
rent issue of stamps means. I do not think that it is
really known what the HARP gun is. I think they be-
lieve that a harp is something on which you play and
they cannot quite understand why there should be a
HARP gun,

I hope that the Philatelic Bureau will improve
the publicity. Mr. Mitchie Hewitt does his best. Hon.
members may not be aware that Mr. Mitchie Hewitt
is a correspondent for a stamp magazine in London.
Hedoes hisbestbut sometimes... (Asides) the Min-
ister says that the Bureau will do this now. Well,


Sir, it is to be hoped that it will improve that sort
of thing.
6.50 p.m.

The last suggestion I will make is this. Mr.
Chairman, the stamps in Barbados do not really
include large number of rarities. It should not be
beyond the financial resources of the Government
to complete the Museum's collection. I went to look
at the Museum's collection not very long ago, and
Mr. Connell and I had a look at them. There are, I
suppose from the early days, one or two of the 30
of the Brittanias missing and I promised Mr,
Connell that I would give him one or two which
would fill the space. I have not yet got around to
doing it.

He said that stamps at the Museum are not
things that are easily displayed. I do not know if
the Philatelic Bureau would be such as would per-
mitfora betterdisplay of stamps, but I would sug-
gest that certainly for the opening of that Bureau
you might borrow the Museum's collection and give
a little publicity, I do not know under what terms
Government's money can be used for the Barbados
Museum and Historical Society, but I would sug-
gest that the Museum's collection should be com-
pleted.

There are afew gaps. The stamps can actually
be bought. I am fairly well in touch with the mar-
ket for Barbadian stamps and I can safely say, I
am sure without peradventure, that there is nobody
in Barbados who holds issues comparable to mine.
At the moment my estimation is that the market
for Barbadian stamps is a little depressed. If the
Government thinks it desirable that they should get
a proper' collection of stamps here in Barbados,
now is the time. Stamps are doubling in value for
the classical issues. In ten years or perhaps less
than ten years however it will not be long before
that happens to Brittanias in Barbados, Trinidad
and Mauritius. Now is the time to buy them in con-
junction with these. I would be glad to hear from
the Minister if he can tell us when the Bureau will
be actually opened.

Non. N. W. BOXfLL: I would hope that the Bu-
reau will be opening very shortly as soon as this
Resolution gets through this Chamber and passes
the Other Place. People have already signified
theirwillingness to serveonthis Philatelic Bureau.
The next thing I would say is that there was a
stamp which came out recently with the word Net
Services which I think was very beautiful. To me
it was very attractive. As you will readily know,
in Barbados we do not have a lot of objects that we
can really portray on stamps, unlike England. In
Barbados when we want to portray the natural life
of the country, it is very difficult. If you put on a
dove on a stamp, who would want to see a dove?
Sparrows and blackbirds are not so exciting.

We want philatelists themselves to make sug-
gestions to the Bureau. I believe that the Bureau
would be willing. They may not accept everything









1749


you say, but it will gain some ideas. We intend to
push this thing because I know that the Post Office
can make a lot of money and everyone is going in
for stamp collecting nov, I hope, as I said in my
opening address, that this embryonic baby will grow
into a giant in time.
The question that Head Annexed Estimates, Post Office,
Item 41 Furniture and Equipment stand part was put and re-
solved in the affirmative without division.
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to move that this
Resolution for the sum of $19,068 do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.


SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES
RESOLUTION FOR $11,338

HEAD 5 JUDICIARY

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, in moving
the passing of this Resolution, and dealing with
Head 5 -there are certain comments which I make
which will also be shared by the other Item, Inci-
dentals, under Registration.

Mr. Chairman, provision is made under Head
5, Judiciary, Item 24, Incidentals, for $5,877 and
under Registration Item 19, Incidentals, for $1,680.
In respect of each of these amounts the sums of
$4,362 and $436.00 were included to meet the com-
mitment of wages to Cleaners. Unfortunately, the
increased wages were omitted at the time of the
salary revision with the result that it has been de-
cided on the recommendation of the Registrar to
pay these Cleaners at a higher rate and to give
them a certain amount of back pay as from the 1st
April, 1966.

The cost of the arrears of wages in respect of
this period 1st April 1966 to 31st May, 1968 is es-
timated at $1,768, while an additional amount of
$1,414 is reqa" red to meet the increase of 36% of
the existing provision, making a total of $3,280.

I beg to move that Head 5 stand part.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to second that.

Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, dealing with
Item 24, Head 5 Judiciary, I believe that it has
beenraisedhere on previous occasions, but I think
that it is appropriate now that attention should be
again drawn to the situation in the Supreme Court
of Barbados, and the very uncomfortable physical
conditions which -now exist there.

It is not realized that with the rise in traffic
outside the Law Courts, even though the Commis-
sioner of Police puts up a" No entry" sign between
the junction of the Waterworks and the Public Li-
brary so that traffic is diverted to the right on that
junction and has to go around the square, it is still


not appreciated that when heavy vehicles pass it is
almost impossible in Court No. 1 for people to hear
properly.

The obviouss thing is that the Government will
have to air-condition that Court. Nowadays the Court-
yard attracts a large number of cars for parking, so
that even though the yard is restricted now to people
whose business it is to go in there, when their cars
move off and No. 1 Court is Sitting, you are still in
trouble.

Now, with respect to Courts Nos. 2, 3 and 4, there
is a tree at the back which prevents the sun at cer-
tain hours of the day from goingintoNos. 3 and 4
Courts so that it cannot be said that one can trim that
tree easily. What has happened is that when the Courts
were built, the Library extension was not built: so
you used to get the wind flowing in from North East
with the effect that these Courts used to be reasonably
cool.
7.00 p.m.

At this time of the year any person who goes in
there although they have installed heavy overhead
fans, the vibration from them is so terrific that they
shake at the top. It is a fact that the Library had to
be extended and a big, tal' building was erected there
which blocks the wind. Courts 1, 2, 3 and 4 should be
air-conditioned. It would not cost a fortune to air-
condition those Courts. Individual units would be suf-
ficient, and the cost of electricity would not be very
high because the fans would not be on for very long
periods. The normal Court-sitting hours are four
hours: from nine until two. Some judges use those
hours, where there is a 10-minute break. On the
other hand, you can start to work at half past nine,
stop at half past twelve, return at two, and work until
three thirty orfour; so itwill be the same four hours.
Roughly speaking, it will be from four to six hours a
day if it is decided to air-condition the Courts. I hope
that the Government would really do something in re-
spect of these Courts.,

I understand that the Public Library next door is
air-conditioned. The Law Library is also air-
conditioned, but that was necessary because of the
fact that it has been proven that books stand up much
better in air-conditioned rooms.
The question that Head 5 Judiciary stand part was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Head 7 Registration = was called.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, having given
the reasons already, I beg to move that Head 7 Regis-
tration stand part.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to second that.

Mr. St. JOHN: Now this deals with Local Govern-
ment, andwe cannot allow it to pass so quickly today.
This is Head 7.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: See note 1.


Mr. ST. JOHN: I am sorry.









1750


The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.
Head 40 Ministry of Health and Community Development
was called.
Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, in moving the
passing of Head 40, I will deal with Item 92A (New)
Pension Contributions. Owing to the present ar-
rangement, Sir, it has been found necessary to obtain
urgently the services of officers, including 13 offi-
cers holding appointments in the Interim Commis-
sioner's (Local Government) Service, in order that
the needs of certain Central Governmeat Departments
may be satisfied. These appointments cannot be per-
manently made, either because the relevant Central
Government posts have not yet been created, or be-
cause of the proposals for the re-organisation of the
Local Government Services which militate against
the outright transfer of officers.

At present there are two such officers on second-
ment to the Ministry of Health: one i:s with the Public
Assistance Department, and the other is a Midwife
who is in the District Hospital Service. It is also
likely that two Staff Nurses and four Midwives will
soon be seconded from the Infirmary in the North to
work in temporary posts at the St. Andrew's District
Hospital.

Under the provisions of Regulation 18 of the Lo-
cal Government Pensions (Amendment) Regulations,
1964, the Government is liable to pay the Interim
Commissioner a pension contribution at the rate of
25% of the substantive salaries of officers who have
been seconded from the respective areas. At present
there is no provision in the Current Estimates to
meet this payment, and it is proposed to seek sup-
plementary funds amounting to $6,330 for this pur-
pose. This amount includes a reserve to cover
unforeseen cases of secondment that may arise late
in the current financial year. That deals with the se-
condment of officers to the Central Government.

I would also like to give the assurance that, in
compiling the estimates for the various Districts,
provision has been made to pay the officers in the
Southern and Northern areas as wellasthe claims,
pensions andgratuities of the various casual workers
who have proved redundant, or have reached the re-
tiring age. Provision has been ma.A! in this year's
Estimates and, as far as the South is concerned, pro-
visional pension and gratuity amounting to $62,200 is
included in this year's Estimates which are being
finalised now.

The delay has been caused, as has been explained
here on several occasions, in computing figures and
in finding out who was entitled and who were not en-
titled under the old Vestry system and the Local
Government system, and in obtaining affidavits and
checking and so on, but the money is here to pay them.
That is as far as the South is concerned, which is
reallythe main area which has been affected, because
the areas in the North have been taken over ever
since. The araas in the North were always under the
control of the Central Government. Provision has


been made in the sum of $62,200 to pay the casual
workers, who have been waiting for this money, and
we hope to pay them now that the various affidavits
and the necessary evidence of their entitlement are
more or less finished and at hand.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to second that.

Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, I will start with
the point last dealt with by the Hon. Minister. It is
true that of late there appears to be a more vigorous
outlook being adopted by those responsible for the
payment of pensions to employees in the Southern
area, because people like Mr. Bovell and others I
'cnow that affidavits have been filed, and they now
have a much more sensible form of affidavit. It is a
new form of affidavit.
7.10 p.m.

What people did not realise before was that un-
der the Vestry system there were a lot of worthless,
spiteful employees who always hated their fellow
employees and were their Heads of Departments, and
when it came to getting affidavits sworn, they refused
to swear the affidavits for some of these people al-
though they knew they were working in the service
foralong periodof time. I spoke to the Interim Com-
missioner, and I am pleased to say that when it was
pointed out that there were former members of the
Road Board a-d the Vestry who could swear and they
were alive, it was realized that their affidavits would
be as good as any. I only hope that now that the money
is being passed the Minister said that the m.,ney is
there that these people can get their pension. They
have been waiting on it for a long time.

Mr. Chairman, if you talk about an organisation
that the public has contempt for, cannot understand
and is an impersonal thing responsible to no man,
you are talking about the Interim Commissioner's
Officer of Local Government, one man down in Bank
Hall who is supposed to be looking after the affairs
of the whole of Barbados in so far as they fall within
the sphere of Local Government. No longer do people
have any agency that they can identify as part and
parcel of Government. AIl they are dealing with now
is somebody on the telephone. They do not have any-
body to go and talk to now, and if you go and try to
get anything done, they turn you about saying: "It is
not my Department; go to that one". When you get
there, they say; "Oh, he must be wrong; it is that
Department"; and you are running between and be-
twixt. The worst thing the Government has ever done
is to abolish Local Government when they had no
concrete plans in their mind to replace it with a pro-
per system. If you look in the Southern Area, to this
day thera were plans made by the regimes of the
Southern District Council of both this Government
and that Government for the improvement of re-
creational facilities, and for improvement, in par-
ticular, of beach facilities. Who is responsible for
that today? To whom do the people in the villages go
when they want a standpipe, a street light, a road
done or proper toilet facilities in the area? No one.
They have to come and buckle down on their repre-
sentatives, and in here we have to try to raise them,









1751


by way of Parliamentary Questions. Well, the Gov-
ernment has exposed itself to this. This House will
be plagued with Parliamentary Questions on a scale
that is going to make the hair on the heads of.the
Government members go grey before they are fin-
sthed. What has happened in the Oistin Area and
around? Theyhave amalgamatedthe infirmaries, bat
they brought the people from St. George over to
Oistin before they had expanded the facilities at
Oistin, and I challenge the Minister to deny that.
Sometimes the facilities at their disposal are de-
plorable. I can carry them there tomorrow morning
and show them. How many are in the infirmary now?
How many was it built for? Of course, the Govern-
ment may say that they are old and ought to be glad
the Government has put some place for them; but it
never used to operate like that.

Everybody knows, Mr. Chairman, that the old-
time system had its faults, but it was infinitely bet-
ter than this, and they have no plans to change it.
Every year we hear this talk that Government's
plans for the re-organisation of Local Government
will soon be coming into vogue, but what is happen-
ing? The staff in the Local Government offices are
frustrated and fed up now, and you can go into any
of the Local Government offices and see what is
happening. I have nothing against the employment of
retired Government Servarts or retired Local Gov-
ernment people in jobs who are going to fill tem-
porary vacancies and help in extraordinary work,
but to tell me that you are going to employ pension-
ers in jobs in the City Council as well as in the
Southern District area and pay them more than you
are paying your substantive staff for doing cock-
and-bull work is, in my humble opinion, wrong, and
nothing is calculated to breed more discontent and
lack of co-operation between your staff than that
system. I do not like to call names of people on the
floor of this House, but go in the Southern District
Council and in the taxation Department of the City
Council and see if you do not find a lot of retired
people working in the Treasurer's Office, drawing
more money than the other people. The hon. mem-
ber can turn to his left and ask the Minister who
would have these things at his finger tips and you
have a Parliamentary Secretary over there, a Local
Government king who was always in favour of Local
Government, but he voted with the Government and
encouraged the abolition of it, and now he is re-
gretting it. When the Councillors were there, they
usedto put a little pressure to try to ease in a little
relative in a job, but they had at least a conscience
that they only used to take him on when they had to
fill a place, and they would never have the temerity
to suggest taking them on at more than the existing
people, After all, that brings discontent.

There is no leadership at all in the affairs in
which formerly you used to get some leadership
from the Councils. People used to look forward to
seeing the debates and things of that kind. There is
no Board to which anybody is responsible now. In
Christ Church the constituency which the Minister
was representing for all these years, upto now
there is not a playing field either in Silver Sands,


in the Oistin Area or in the Gall Hill Housing area.
Ever since they promised to bring a tractor to level
some land belonging to the Housing Board. There is
no longer any Welfare Committee to prompt and prod
the Central Government. What has happened to the
plans for erecting a pavilion at Dover? Do you think
the Interim Commissioner is going to prod the Cen-
tral Government for these things? What leadership
can you get from a Civil Servant who is responsible
to the Cabinet? Do you think the public can feel that
they must go down to Bank Hall and lay their grie-
vances before the door of the Interim Commissioner,
a man who is holding an office and can tell you that
he is going to get his pay at the end of the month
whether or not he deals with their grievances, and
that this is a little part-time job for him?


Along Oistin Road, in Welches, the Central Gov-
ernment has a piece of land which ought to have been
made into one of the most beautiful facilities for
Barbadian to go and bathe when the Sunday comes.
You get one part of the Central Government called
the Civic Circle, or the Ministry of Agriculture, or
whatever it is, going up there and planting one olean-
dertoday andthe other tomorrow, the next next year;
the weeds growing up in between, and every now and
then you get somebody coming up with a cutlass and
cutlassing and going along. There is no plan. Local
Government used to look after these things. The
beaches are not cleaned now. They do not clean the
beaches between Oistin and Maxwell now. The Minis-
try of Health is supposed to do that, but how can you
do it when you are up to Six Cross Roads and looking
after the Public Health aspect of it?

I must say, however, that I have established a
line of contact with the Chief Medical Officer of Health
and the Chief Public Health Inspector in that area,
and you get co-operation from those gentlemen. All
you have to do is to put it in writing and they do it.
If the Government had proper plans, they ought to
have had a comparable office for the Ministry of
Communications and Works. There ought to be a Di-
visional Engineer there with headquarters at a con-
venient place in the Southern Area where the people
could go and make suggestions about roads and wa-
ter. They ought to have a comparable office from the
Community Development Office there. They ought to
ha.e these comparable offices of the Ministry of
Health where you know you could go and lay your
complaints, anywhere suggestions could be made, but
you do not have any of these things. The Councils
used to be a hub; we know that there used to be a
certain amount of parish-pumping.
7.20 p.m.

There used to be a certain amount of padding in
travelling and things like that, but you could have re-
duced the number of Councillors and you could have
had a lot of these things done; but, mark my word,
Mr. Chairman, this House is going to have thousands
and thousands of questions put in here until a proper
system is established, and there is this idea about
the Clerk being responsible to the Interim Commis-
sioner, and the Interim Commissioner is responsi-









1752


ble to the Cabinet, and nobody is responsible to the:
people in the Southern area at all for their amenities.
As far as the North is concerned, it is not generally
known that the District Hospital in St. Andrew has
now been unoccupied for fully eighteen months. The
Public Works Department spent money on it, and it
could not be opened because the roof was leaking.
What they were supposed to have got for the money,
they did not get: and the Government's money has
been spent to create a Maternity Hospital in St. An-
drew. I passed down there up to the other day and
I asked around and what happened? It has not yet
been opened, not up to now, and it was over eighteen
months ago that it was supposed to be opened.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, on a point
of order. Certain statements made by the hon. mem-
ber may be true as to why the Hospital has not yet
been opened; but to state that it should have been
opened eighteen months ago is not correct, be-
cause provision was only made in this year's Esti-
mates as far as paying the staff and employing
people up there are concerned. You cannot open a
District Hospital unless you have a Matron, Nurses
and the various people employed. Provisionhas only
been made in this year's estimates as regards this
Hospital. Whereas some of what the hon. member
has said may be correct, he made a big faux pas as
far as time is concerned.

Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, I know that the
Government would not have been so stupid as to come
forward with money to open the Hospital at this stage
because they know that the Public Works Department
has not finished doing what it should have done ever
since. The Public Works Department is not going to
come forward and let the money lapse. It has enough
lapsing all around; so in this year's Estimates, it was
satisfied that it could not get the Hospital opened; but
what the Minister has not denied, I note, is the fact
that it has been ostensibly finished for some con-
siderable period of time and it is still not opened.
Anyway, we hope that the people in St. Andrew will
get their District Hospital. The one in Christ Church
which was opened by the then Minister of Social Ser-
vices, Mr. Miller, is working very well. It is one of
the most successful ones which they have, but I do
hope that proper plans are made for that compound.
The old Vestry room ought to have been used as
some sort of Community Centre for Oistins and Sil -
ver Sands, not where politicians go and talk or any-
thing like that, but where young people can go and
have their clubs I do not mean gambling clubs I
mean clubs like the A.Y.P.A.'s or whatever kind of
social club they have. You cannot use the upstairs
part of the Vestry room for that. I hear that they
have taken the Matron and the Nurses, since they
brought over the St. George's Infirmary, and they
have not provided any proper accommodation for
them. They had to use the old room which the In-
spectors used to use. You can pass there in the
day and at night and see the nurses undressing and
if the poor nurses were to get a call of nature in the
middle of the night, they have to walk across the
road. Those are the conditions under which they
transferred the infirmaries. Let them deny those


facts. There are no toilet facilities in that building
at all.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, again on a
point of order. For fear that the hon. member gets
away with that, again he is partly correct in the
sense that the old Vestry room upstairs is being
converted into Nurses' quarters. As to the room
which the hon. member is referring to, apparently
some people are engaged in spying or peeping or
what he has referred to. I do not know if he is in-
volved in that too. (Laughter) The room in question
is just there for changing. The Nurses do not sleep
there. These Nurses are given travelling expenses
to and from their homes. They come from their
homes and when they are on duty, they have an hour
or half hour or so in this room which the hon. mem-
ber has referred to, but they do not live or sleep
there. They live at their homes: but when they re-
lax for an hour for lunch, for changing and so on,
they use this room. And they have the toilet facili-
ties as far as I know. (Mr. St. JOHN: Yes, across
the road.) We have the record little straighter now;
the position is as I have stated.

Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, ifyoupass there,
you can see the people changing. You do not have
to be spying; you only have to have good eyes and
you will see. This is a changing room, but the basic
thing is regards the facilities in the area for the In-
firmary for St. Andrew, because they have not in-
dulged in a programme of providing proper facilities.
That is so; the whole of that Oistins area wants re-
planning and re-developing. What I urge on the Gov-
ernment is that it is time that they start thinking
about what they are going to do about those affairs
which were formerly administered by Local Gov-
ernment, and they have been left in the hands of this
Organisation called an Interim Commissioner. It has
been interim for too long and the people are suffer-
ing. There is nobody who is responsible to them that
they can go to, and the time of this Parliament is
going to be taken up with Local Government affairs on
Tuesday after Tuesday.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: The question is......

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, before you
put the question, I am afraid that I did not elaborate
on the second item which is item 174, a new item -
Salvation Army under this Head. I should just like
to mention that, in so far as this Item is concerned,
the amount required is $1,800. The Salvation Army
receives an annual grant to assist them in the op-
eration of their Men's Hostel and Night Shelter. This
grant is separate from the ecclesiastical grant-in-
aid, and it has been fixed at $1,000 for the last ten
years. The Divisional Commander has reported to
the Ministry that the floor boards, joists and main
beams under one half of the building have been seri-
ously damaged by termites and need replacements
immediately. Extensive repairs, however, were
carried out and effected in 1966, and in connection
with that work, the Government gave grants amount-
ing to $8,000. The Divisional Commander at that
time solicited and secured a good deal of assistance









1753


in goods and services from private companies and
individuals which all together approximate to one-
third of the estimated cost of the work, so that they
are now asking for further assistance. It is recom-
mended that the sum of $1,800 should be given to-
wards the cost of repairs to the Salvation Army's
Men's Hostel. They do very good work, andthey as-
sist the Government in many respects in providing
shelter for the old and the unemployed. I beg to
move that Head 14 stand part of the Schedule, which
I have done already.
7.30 p.m.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, while
we on this side have no objection indeed we wel-
come the repairs being carried out to the Salvation
Army's hostel by way of a Government grant I think
that the Government should be aware that practising
lawyers become all too distressingly familiar with
the unruly conditions that prevail at the Salvation
Army's hostel.

There are a number of persons who are shel-
tered there who perhaps have become derelict by
reason of defects of personality which have also led
them into crime. I remember seeing Brigadier
Gamblin appear not only as a plaintiff on behalf of the
Salvation Army, but even in the dock as an aider and
abettor when he himself was trying to stop the fights
and disputes that take place at the Salvation Army.
I have had the experience of appearing for a gentle-
man over 90 who was charged with assault and fight-
ing the Salvation Army. I defended someone I may
say successfully for breaking another's legs. The
man with the broken legs came into Court, but it
seemed as if he had started the fight.

Many people who are familiar with the Baxters
Road area know that the inhabitants of the Salvation
Army's hostel are second to none when it comes to
creating disturbances and occupying the attention of
the Police in these quarters.

Anything that can be done to make the Hostel
itself a little more salubrious will be welcome be-
cause it definitely needs cleaningup, and it is hoped
that when it is cleaned up physically, its improved
appearance will result in the improved behaviour of
the people who live there. That is something for the
Government to bear in mind.

The question that Head 40 stand part was put and re-
solved in the affirmative without division.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Ibegto movethat this Reso-
lution for $11,338 do now pass.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES CAPITAL No.7

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Chairman, Sir, as the
Addendum clearly sets out the object of this Reso-
lution, I do not believe that members on the opposite


.side will have any objection. I therefore beg to move
that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.
Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to move that Your
Honour do now report the passing of four Resolu-
tions in Committee of Supply.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. CHAIRMAN reported to Mr.SPEAKER who
resumed the Chair and reported accordingly.

On separate motions of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by
Hon. C. E. TALMA, the Resolutions were read a first and
second time and agreed to respectively.
SUSPENSION OF SITTING
Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this sitting be now suspended until 8.30 p.m.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER suspended the sitting accord-
ingly.

7.40 p.m.

On resumption:

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to draw
attention to the fact that a quorum is not present,
and I ask that the bell be rung.

Mr. SPEAKER: I thank the hon. member for
drawing my attention to the fact that there is no quo-
rum. Mr. Clerk, let the bell be rung.

The bell was rung and a quorum was obtained.

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day stands
in the name of the Hon. Leader of the House.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Item No. 5 be taken as the next Order of the Day.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

LAND SURVEYORS ACT, 1968 SECOND
READING

Mr. SPEAKER: Item No. 5 is the instant Order
of the Day, which stands in the name of the Hon.
Leader of the House, and it is to move the second
reading of a Bill relating to the appointment and con-
trol of land surveyors and to the survey of lands in
Barbados.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, this Bill tends
to bring up to date the arrangements for the license -
ing and control of land surveyors and for certain in-
cidental matters. For some time now Government
has been engaged in this matter. Way back in 1964,









1754


the Cabinet reached a decision that legislation to
regulate the licensing and control of surveyors and
for the survey of lands in Barbados on the lines of
the recommendations of the now famous Baird Re-
port should be brought forward, and that these recom -
mendations should be accepted and enacted into law
as soon as possible after the Chief Surveyor had
either been appointed, or had had an opportunity to
consider the proposals.

Mr. Baird was appointed Chief Surveyor in 1966,
and he gave considerable assistance intheprepara-
tion of the Draft Bill which is now before us. I beg
to move that this Bill be now read a second time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, this Bill seeks to
regulate the affairs of a professional group of per-
sons, and I take it that the provisions of this Bill
would have been disclosed to the Surveyors' As-
sociation of Barbados, or, if that body is not func-
tioning now, to the representatives of the practising
surveyors in Barbados. We,on this side of the House,
can see no objection, in principle, to the regulation
of any professional body. As a matter of fact, I hope
that we shall have the privilege of debating similar
Bills dealing with all professions in Barbados, in-
cluding the Legal Profession, in the near future.

It has been said by the Leader of the House, in
introducing the Bill, that this legislation will bring
things up-to-date and upgrade the professional stan-
dards of the surveying profession. Needless to say
that, no doubt, will be done by Regulations which,
under this Act, the Board, subject to the approval
of the Minister, will make. Perhaps, at this stage,
the Leader of the House, or some other appropriate
Minister, would be able to inform us as to whether
any progress has been made towards the establish-
ment of land registration in Barbados.

I have been trying to check this matter, and I
understand that it is the surveying work, the neces -
sary base work or survey, which is causing some
delay. Apparently some of the stations which were
established in Barbados by the Overseas Survey
Team have been either built over, or removed; so
that once we are assured on this side that the rele-
vant provisions of this Act have been approved by
the Professional Association, or that the Regulations
issued thereunder will be so approved, everything
will be all right. As I see it, this is only the struc-
ture, and the teeth of the Bill will be found in the
Regulations made by the Board.

Mr. SPEAKER: If there is no other member de-
sirous to speak on this matter, the Hon. Leader of
the House may exercise his right of final reply..

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, just, perhaps,
to give the hon. member the assurance that the pro-
fessional surveyors have, in fact, been consulted.

The question that the Bill be read a second time was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and the
House go into Committee on this Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the House
went into Committee on the Bill, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

Clauses 1 to 10 inclusive were called and Dassed.

8.40 p.m.
Clause 11 was called. It reads as follows:

11. (1) The Board shall have power to enquire
into and to hear all charges made against a licensed
surveyor in respect of the commission of any offence
against any provisions of any rules made under this
Act and, after due enquiry, to make recommenda-
tions to the Minister for the suspension or cancella-
tion of the licence issued to such surveyor.

(2) The Board may, subject to the approval
of the Minister, make rules for all or any of the fol-
lowing purposes -

(a) the studentship of student land sur-
veyors, the duration of such studentship and
the examination and licensing of persons de-
sirous of acting as land surveyors;

(b) the issue, suspension or cancellation
of licences granted under this Act;

(c) declaring what shall be offences by
land surveyors and the penalties in respect
thereof;

(d) regulating the manner and system in
accordance with which surveys are to be
performed, the degree of accuracy neces-
sary, the description of marks or beacons
to be erected and the form in which plans
or diagrams are to be constructed or drawn
and records of survey kept;

(e) the collection and recording of any
information in respect of land;

(f) the scale of fees payable for the sur-
vey of land and the preparation of plans or
diagrams;

(g) the steps to be taken by the Chief
Surveyor, Lands and Surveys Department,
to test the accuracy of surveys the results
of which are recorded in plans or diagrams
which have been or are intended to be regis -
tered;

(h) the testing of surveying Instruments
and measuring tapes to be used in the sur-
vey of land;

(i) fixing the unit of measure to be used
on general plans and diagrams; and









1755


(j) generally for the better carrying out
of the objects and purposes of this Act.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, Ibegto move
that Clause II stand part.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, Clause II appears
to be the Clause empowering the Board to make regu-
lations, and in Clause 11 (2) (b) it tells us that the
Board shall have power, subject to the approval of
the Minister to make regulations for all or any of the
following purposes the issue, suspension or can-
cellation of licences. If one looks at Clause 4, it
says "prescribed by regulations made by the Min-
ister, be entitled to receive a licence issued by
the Minister." Now I do not see any Clause em-
powering the Minister to make regulations here.
Clause 4 deals with the fees necessary for the grant-
ing of a licence. I do not see the power granted to the
Minister here to make regulations in respect of that.
In Clause 11 (2) it is the Board that makes with the
approval of the Minister, and it seems to me that it
would be under the regulations dealing with the issue,
suspension and cancellation of licence granted that
the fees will be fixed for the licences. Under Clause
3 (1) it is the Minister or any person authorised by
him who may from time to time issue licences, but
I do not see any section which empowers the Minis -
ter to make regulations for the fees. Perhaps your
file may explain it over there, but I do not see it.

In Clause 4 (1) you have to pay fees subject to
the provisions of subsection (2). I am dealing with
this in relation to section 11, Mr. Chairman; so I
have to quote it. It reads as follows:-

"Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) any
person who satisfies the Board that he possesses
the requisite qualifications or proficiency to prac-
tise as a land surveyor shall on payment to the Ac -
countant General of the fee prescribed by regulations
made by the Minister, be entitled to receive a licence
issued by the Minister."

It does not say "on payment to the Accountant
General the fee prescribed by regulations made un-
der this Act;" it says specifically made by the
Minister". I just draw it to the attention of the Hon.
Minister. In my copy of the Bill I see reference to
the Minister all the time, but I do not see any defi-
nition of which Minister. See if your copy does not
have it. Usually in these Acts, when you say "Min-
ister", you either say the Minister designated by
the Governor-General or you say "Minister of Home
Affairs" or "Minister for the time being charged
with responsibility for this or that." In all these
forms since you are independent, you usually define
who is Minister and which Minister you mean. I do
not want any difficulties when later some Court de-
cides you cannot grant taxation powers by implica-
tion, and that if you intended to have the power to
impose a charge, it should be clearly done and not
done by implication. If you have a Board and they
have power to make regulations subject to the ap-


proval of the Minister for the issue, cancellation
and everything dealing with licences, it seems to me
that that power includes the power to prescribe such
fee as is necessary, but it seems that under this Act
you have two different sets of people who can make
regulations the Minister and the other people.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: With respect to the second
point raised by the hon. member on the absence of a
definition of Minister in the Act, I am advised that
this is not necessary in every Act.

The question that Clause 11 stand part was put and resolved
in the affirmative without division.

8.50 p.m.
Clause 12 was called and passed.

Clause 13 was called.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move
that Clause 13 stand part of the Bill. Perhaps the
hon. member would like me to remind him that, in
respect of the questionwhich he asked about the defi-
nition of "Minister" not being included in this Bill,
the Interpretation Act covers it, it seems to me,
with the definition that "Minister shall mean the
Premier or other member of the Cabinet for the
the time being administering the subject-matter of
the enactment in or in respect of which that expression
is used.' That is the Interpretation Act 1966-10.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question that Clause 13 stand part of the Bill was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Clause 14 was called and passed.

The Schedule w2s called.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to move that this be
the Schedule to the Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

On the motion of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by Hon.
C. E. TALMA, the CHAIRMAN reported the passing of the Bill
in Committee.

Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair and reported acc adingly.

On separate motions of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by
Hon. C. E. TALMA, the Bill was read a third time and passed.



RESOLUTION TO AUTHORISE BORROWING
OF MONEY BY THE ISSUE OF
TREASURY BILLS

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Order No. 3 be taken as the next Order of the
Day.









1756


Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

Mr. SPEAKER: The instant Order of the Day is
Order No. 3 and it stands in the name of the Hon.
and Learned Minister of Finance. It is to move the
passing of the following Resolution: -

A Resolution to authorise the Minister respon-
sible for Finance to borrow by the issue in the Island
of Treasury Bills sums of money not exceeding five
million dollars and such sums as may be required
to pay off at maturity Bills already lawfully issued
and outstanding.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, this Reso-
lution is in consequence of Section 2 of the Treas -
ury Bills (Local) Act of 1922 whereby it is provided
that the Minister of Finance, whenever authorised
by Resolution, may borrow by the issuing in this
Island of Treasury Bills of sums not exceeding the
amount specified in the Resolution. Way back in the
early 1960's the issue of Treasury Bills in the Island
was approximately $1 million. It was not resorted to
as a device for financing probably because we did
not have a Minister of Finance or any kind of finan-
cial policy. Subsequently we had no financial policy,
we had no Minister of Finance and the question of fi-
nancing the Government expenditure did not exercise
the minds of those who were sitting in the Executive
Committee at that time. (ASIDES) I make a positive
statement; I have all the documents before me.
Shortly after I came into office, I decided to use a
Measure which is probably used in the United King-
dom and in all Commonwealth countries, which makes
finance available to the Government at rates of in-
terest substantially below those which the Govern-
ment would have to pay if and when the Government
made issues of stock on a long-term basis.

The average interest yield of Treasury Bills
is in the region of 5 3/4% or 5 5/6% whereas, today,
it would be impossible to get any kind of long-term
loan under, let us say, 7 7/8% or 8% if at all, with
the way in which the World Market is today. In 1963,
we increasedthe authorisation by $1 million to bring
it up to $2 million, and then in 1964, we increased
the authorisationby another $1 million which brought
itup to $3 million andit has remained in the vicinity
of $3 million ever since 1964. By approving this
Resolution, the Legislature is not approving a total
issue of $5 million but, according to the wording of
the Act of 1922, it is authorising the issue of $5 mil-
lion more in Treasury Bills, therefore bringing the
total amount of Treasury Bills which can be issued
on the market up to $8 million at any one time. All
of this money is receivable in the Island, and the
only method which is employed is for the Accountant
General, under my authority, to advertise for ten-
ders for Treasury Bills of ninety days duration and
they are repaid within 90 days. The difference be-
tween a Treasury Bill and a Government Debenture
is that a Government Debenture is only redeemable
atthe endof say, ten,fifteenor twenty years, whereas


a Treasury Bill is redeemable at par in 90 days.
9.00 p.m.

Now, what happens is that the person is in-
terested in Treasury Bills and the lowest amount
which can be tendered for is $1,000 and they come
in denominations from $1,000 to $50,000 and accor-
ding to the terms of the advertisement the bills are
in denominations of $100.00 it means how much
you will pay for $100.00. For instance, the person
putting in a tender says: "I will buy a $100.00 Treas -
ury Bill for $98.71." What he is in truth and infact
saying is 'that in 90 days I expect a certain return
on my investment of $98.71 of 5 3/4%' that is roughly
speaking, it may be a few points out, but I am doing
a quick calculation.

An investment of $98.71 would yield in 90 days,
approximately 5 3/4% because the Bill is redeem-
able at par at the end of 90 days so that you get
$100.00 at the end of 90 days. If you do a quick cal-
culation you will see that 1.29 over 90 of 365, will
bring something like 5. 75%.


That is how it is done, and although the Bill is
redeemable at the end of 90 days what usually hap-
hens is that before the 90 days are out a new issue
has been authorised, and the people who have ten-
dered keep on tendering so that they do not actually
draw their money out of the new people coniing in.

From our experience of the availability of short
term money and the fact that the rate on Treasury
Bills is slightly more attractive as a matter of
fact, they are more attractive than short term rates
which the banks are willing to pay, and certainly sub-
stantially more than the Savings Bank is authorised
to pay for a similar period we are extending the
issue of Treasury Bills from $3 million to $8 mil-
lion and that is what the Bill is all about. As long as
we can get people interested in tendering for Treas-
ury Bills, we actually save a substantial amount of
money in not floating long term loans on the market.

Exactly how long we can go on doing this is a
matter of calculation. We have to have a device on
which we draw The Joint Consolidated Fund (J.C.F.)
in London, but the interest is based on the London
daily average which is itself based on day-to-day
borrowing. That works out at substantially below the
open market rate on long term loans; so in this way
you are able to use a device of short term repeti-
tive borrowing sometimes in the right cases for long
term capital projects.

I think that I have given enough explanation to
hon. members. One of the useful things about Treas-
ury Bills is that you have a high degree of liquidity
in that you never have to wait longer than 89 days
after the first day on which you have made your suc-
cessful bid, to redeem your bid. Therefore, it keeps
money in the country which otherwise people might
be tempted to put in Treasury Bills in Trinidad or
the U.K. or in some other places people who do
not want to have their money tied up for a long time
in debentures.









1757


Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, apart
from the elementary theory which the Prime Minis-
ter has been exercising us with, his speech is in-
teresting because it reveals that for the first time
in some months they have recognized that there is a
lowerrate of interest than the 8% or 10% that's now
going to the banks.

The Prime Minister has said that the question
of Government financing did not exercise the minds
of those sitting in the Executive Committee at that
time, referring to the early 1950's. If he can prove
that, he can prove anything; but that is mere irre-
levancy comparable with the way in which he
opened......

Hon. E. W. BARROW: On a point of order. The
hon. member does not seem to understand what the
argument is all about. I never said anything about
not having exercised Government financing. I said
that this is a method of Government financing which
did not exercise the minds of the hon. members. Up
to now it does not exercise the mind of the hon. mem-
ber who has just sat down because he informed the
Colonial Secretary that this body had no one capable
of making simple arithmetical calculations. I have a
copy of a telegram which was sent to me by the Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that that is not a
point of order.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: It is for him to say
who sent the telegram to the Colonial Secretary a
copy of which was sent to him because the Governor
showed him a private letter which did not say what
the Prime Minister has just said. If I am asked to
choose whom to believe between the Prime Minister
and Sir John Stow, it may be a choice of two extremes,
but I would still believe Sir John Stow. It is irrele-
vant anyhow and not very important to this debate.

If Members of this House believe that we of the
Barbados Labour Party had no one capable of under-.
standing economic matters, hon. members will be-
lieve anything the Prime Minister says. I do not think
the hon. members even on that side would accept that.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: I wonder if the hon. mem-
ber would promise me that he would undertake some
sort of plastic surgery to acquire a more manly
feature if I can produce the telegram here on the
next occasion that the House sits.

Mr. SPEAKER: On what is the Hon. Prime Min-
ister speaking?

Hon. E. W. BARROW: On a point of order.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the
Prime Minister seems to have a great knowledge of
whether my features are manly or not. I really did
not know that the Prime Minister worried about the
manliness or otherwise of my features. I did not
know that he looked at me that closely. I never
looked at him that way.


We are really discussing a simple Bill about
finance as a result of a decision arrived at that the
time is now ripe to expand the Treasury Bill issue.
Presumably there will be some pressure from the
Banks. After all, there are now two new Banks and
we can safely assume that the Banks have a Treas-
ury Bill investments they may never take money out,
but renew them for 90 day periods because there is
a certain amount of liquidity in Treasury Bills in
Barbados, and they are attracted by the terms of the
rate of interest and investment and can at the same
time satisfy the Inspectors that the Bank has ob-
served the liquidity preference in right proportions.

The amount is to be increased from $3 million
to $8 million. If the Government can raise it, we in
the Opposition are not going to quarrel with it. If the
Government has at long last seen the West Indies
Stock Exchange, so called, revealed for what it is,
we are only too glad.
9.10 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, this Resolution is very interesting
from another point of view. The Prime Minister said
that as soon as he can review the general rate of
interest position in Barbados he would do so. There
are signs that the tight rate of interest which pre-
vails in Great Britain is beginning to come down.
There is definitely a relaxation in the British mar-
ket, not so much in the Canadian market, but in the
American market as well. There is pressure, in-
deed, through holders of money to be allowed to
lend it, Mr. Speaker, even at the present slightly
reduced rate. It is considered in financial papers
thatthe chief holding-back of credit in Great Britain
are the restrictions imposed by the Banks the re-
strictions contained in the Bank of England Circular
which have still not been repealed or restricted to
any large degree.

It is now emerging that the pressure from the
Commomwealth Development Corporation was what
largelylay behindthe rise in the ratO of interest last
Christmas. This is widely saidby persons even close
to the Commonwealth Development Corporation. We
regarded it, Mr. Speaker, at the time as a panic
measure, and what we have seen has convinced us
that it was not a palic measure.

There has been for years in Barbados if you
'\ant to take the risk inherent in hire-purchase
transactions a chance of getting a return of 10%
or 11% on your money anyhow. The only difference
now is that Banks are also trying to get into the
higher scales. I still do not know anywhere else in
the world where you have to pay 8% as an effective
minimum o,: .: .aall mortgage loans. The Prime Min-
isterhas notgiven the slightest indication, as Minis-
ter of Finance, that the problem of reducing the rate
of intere st, or even bringing in legislation which will
allow the Minister of Finance to fix the rate of in-
terest exactly as he has means of fixing it in Britain
or the President or Secretary of the Treasury has
means of fixing it in the United States, will be dealt
with. He has not shown any sign that this is going to
be done, and he has not taken this opportunity of tell-
ing us about it. All he is in effect; telling us is that









1758


the Government now has confidence that instead of
having to pay these very large amounts of interest
onlong-term loans, it can raise as much as $8 mil-
lion at short-term interest prices nearly three
times as much as the Government could raise be-
fore; from $3 million to $8 million. If this entire
amount is taken up, it does not mean that it will be
issued in Barbados and held in Barbados. It is an
increase in the public debt all the same, and it is a
short term increase that can be on us before we
know where we are if, in fact, this $5 million is to
be taken up and expanded to the maximum in the
same way as we are now operating at the maximum
of $3 million.

Sir, these are matters which the Prime Minis-
ter could deal with. Instead of telling us about what
short term loans are those of us on this side who
are going to speak, I believe, are already familiar
with such things. He wi.U )nly be trying to explain
economics to the hon. member for St. Andrew, or
perhaps the hon. junior member for St. Thomas, but
they are showing what they think of the nature of the
debate that is going on. He can save his energies as
far as they are concerned. As far as we are con-
cerned, Mr. Speaker, we would no more take the
economic theory from the Prime Minister as we
would take facts, unless he was so compelled to do
so by the Rules of this Honourable House.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, it is fashionable
nowadays that, whenever the Minister of Finance is
called upon to introduce any financial measure in
this House, he prefaces his remarks by saying that
we have only just had a Minister of Finance. Those
of us who have lived here and studied the operations
of this so-called Minister of Finance will realise
that he has an amazing capacity for bringing meas-
ures before this House which have harmful effects
upon the economy of the country.

Sir, let the Minister of Finance deny the fact
that he now sees it possible, because of the opera-
tion of the National Insurance Fund, to have more
money available for investment in Treasury Bills.
He wants to tap the National Insurance Fund. The
National Insurance Fund now has at its disposal a
fair amount of money, and it is going to be increased.
It must be invested in some manner. The Cabinet
has to approve the Regulations of investment. The
Cabinet has direct and indirect means of putting
pressure of course, it is not necessary to put
pressure or suggesting to the body that is going
to be in charge of the investment of National Insur-
ance Funds that some of it should go into Treasury
Bills. Just as they used the Port Funds, the Devel-
opment Funds and the Savings Bank, through the
Directorate, they can use other Funds.

Therefore,I agreewiththe Prime Minister that
if you canget money at 6% or 5 1/4%, as he says, it
is better to get it on short term where 80% of the
people who invest in Treasury Bills do not call back
for their money after 90 days and leave it there.
The Government can get its money that way. One
thingwe are sure of is that the Government of Bar-


bados needs money. The squandermania that it has
indulged in by foolish expenditure; the $2 million it
wasted on the Hilton Hotel; the extra sums of money
the Financial Building cost the Government we are
now beginning to feel the effects of those things. The
Minister of Finance now has to succumb to the de-
mands of the Banks and other financial institutions to
raise the rate of interest.

Now let him deny this fact. The Banks are now
charging the people in Barbados 9 1/4%. Let him
deny a'so that in this country today the Insurance
Companies, who formerly lent money for house build-
ing, are not now lending the same amount of money.
They are thinking, as we predicted from this side of
the House. It is human nature. Here are Banks and
Insurance Companies operating to a certain extent,
not in finances of inventory or things of that kind, in
the same market; lending money for building houses.
You now allow the banks to charge any rate of inter-
est they like, and then you go on to say "such other
financial institutions as may be designated."
9.20 p.m.

I ask the Minister of Finance tonight, what other
institution has he designated under the Rate of In-
terest Act? Not onel Go around 'o any solicitor's
office or any of the other agencies that used :o invest
money in Housing loans and see what is the position.
Money is harder to raise for house-building in Bar-
bados now than at any other time in the last ten
years. Let the Minister check and find that it is a fact.
You cannot get money to build houses now as easily
as you used to be able to get it before. He is going
to come up and say that C.D.C. has got $2 million
or $3 million committed to It, bu' let him deny that
the Cave Hill scheme is about eighteen months away
from starting, because although they may be willing
to lend for house-building at 8 per cent, they want a
few other side things to tack )m to it which would
amount to more than 8 per cent; so that we find our-
selves in a position where not only the Government
is in straitened circumstances.

As t e hon. senior member for St. Thomas said,
the Prime Minister let off the bogus financial insti-
tution called the West Indies Stock Exchange. I re-
member when he said in here that when they agreed
to underwrite, part of the reason why they were
getting these high charges was because they were
going to underwrite it. They raised about a quarter
of what they wanted to raise, and then the Prime
Minister let them off the hook insteadofmaking
them raise the money or reduce their charges. If
they had raised it, then it wouldn't be necessary
for him to have this, but I agree with it. I feel that
Insurance Companies, Savings Banks, Banks, any
other Trusts, unit or otherwise, and other capital
intermediaries should be made to channel the fi-
nances towards the development of Barbados. The
Prime Ministeronly preaches this, though; he would
noi bring down any insurance legislation, and he is
allowing the Banks to continue to get away with mur-
der in this country. Why must they charge 9 1/4 per
cent today when the Bank Rate has gone down? Look
at the profits they are making No wonder hundreds









1759


of Banks are coming here. Look at the palatial and
ornamental buildings they can put up in this coun-
try all standards of luxury because of the fact that
they are borrowing money at 5 per cent, the maxi-
mum they are going to pay, and lendingat 9 per cent,
a mark-up in the vicinity of 80 per cent, nearly 100
per cent. If the merchants in Bridgetownwere to get
that kind of percentage mark-up on their goods, the
Prime Minister would be keeping a lot of noise, but
the Banks are his friends. As Minister of Finance,
it is your duty to see that exorbitant mark-ups are
not allowed; as Minister of Finance it is your duty
to see that you pass a Bill in here with power to fix
rates of interest comparable to the mark-upthat the
Banks get and not be afraid of Banks. Why should the
Banks be charging 9 1/4per cent interest in Barba-
dos now?

There is this idea about the Banks bringing in
money from abroad, but I made a statement on more
than one occasion, and the fiscal and financial sur-
vey which the Prime Minister will lay on the Table
of this House will bear me out, that the Banks do not
lend out more money in Barbados than what they col-
lect from their depositors in Barbados. Ido not care
whether they have an arrangement of temporarily
stopping shortages that they get from their Head
Offices in London; between Branches they do not
charge the same rate of interest. With respect to
indigenous institutions, a Unit Trust law was passed
the other day and I had the shockof my life. It was a
law designed to prevent money, as I understood it,
from going abroad following these advertisements
that you see, like the Lombard Banking Company
telling you that you can invest at 8 per cent and so
on. The little non-profit making scheme that was
being administered by a firm of solicitors here
where if you had $1,000, $2,000 or $3,000 you could
go ahead and pool, and if a man came in to have
$8,000 on loan, instead of having four mortgages of
$2,000 each where you had to complicate the con-
veyance and have four different people having a mort -
gage unit trust, you have clapped 40 per cent on that,
although the Minister had power to exempt it. Here
was a scheme which was trying to facilitate savings.
The difference between the 8 per cent that the bor-
rowers were paying and what was returned to the
depositors was a mere one-quarter per cent, the
administrative charges of keeping it alive; but they
put 40 per cent on that and killed the scheme.

If you talk about encouraging indigenous insti-
tutions and want to prevent profiteering, it seems
to me that that scheme was an infinitely better
scheme than anything that the Banks are going to
put up around here and tell me they are going to
pay depositors in Barbados 5 per cent and charge
9 1/4 per cent. If you feel that you want the Banks
to indulge in financing of conspicuous personal con-
sumption, to use the Minister's terminology, you
will say that on loans up to $6,000 or $8,000 they
are allowed to charge that, but for loans above that
they must keep to the old rate of 8 per cent; but you
have given the Banks, complete liberty to charge what
they like.


The most part of the savings in Barbados is by
way of insurance. Let the Minister of Finance deny
whether the application for Treasury Bills by Insur-
ance Companies is as great as previously. Let him
deny the fact that he is not expecting National In-
surance money in this scheme. I do not quarrel with
that, but it gives us the opportunity to lay bare. I do
not care whether or not you have a Ministry of Fi-
nance now; it does not make any difference. I know
the Planning Unit you have you did not set up. I know
that the previous Government had the wisdom, the
good sense, Minister of Finance or not, to indulge in
a scheme the magnitude of which Your Government
has never indulged, namely, to build the Deep Water
Harbour. I know that its conception, execution and
its subsequent administration are such that the Prime
Minister can feel proud of it as a Barbadian, and that
the Hilton Hotel bears absolutely no comparison with
it in conception, execution or administration now.

As the Prime Minister said in his Article in the
"New Commonwealth No. 12, 1966", "The Island
has a long history of stable Government and has an
efficient and honest administration." That was be-
fore the D.L.P. came into power. "It alsohas infra-
structural requirements of economic growth, a
modern efficient Deep Water Harbour," the only
thing wrong with the Harbour is the Minister who is
administering it right now "and an International
Airport." Do not come in here with this idea that
we never had a Minister of Finance before, because
nobody takes you seriously with that. We had a per-
son who used to debate and introduce taxation meas -
ures, and we had an Economic Planning Unit which
was set up. You know that Dudley Seers came down
here from the United Nations; we had Cadbury who
prepared a Development Plan. We had the same
Savings Bank; we had proper rates of interest and
not the 9 1/4 per cent rate of interest that you have
now, and such Government money as was spent was
spent on schemes which would at least pay the fi-
nance charges. You cannot deny the fact that your
Hilton Hotel scheme does not pay one finance charge;
so let us forget this thing about superiority, Minis-
ter of Finance and all that junk. Let us deal with the
basic facts.
9.30 p.m.

The Prime Minister is in charge, as Minister
of Finance, of the economy of this country. We, on
this side, feel that there is something basically
wrong with the monetary policy of a country which
permits a small group to monopolise credit in this
country to the disadvantage of the public. That is
what we feel. We feel that the time is ripe for a
Commission of Enquiry into the monetary policy of
this country and the policy pursued by the Banks and
the Insurance Companies. In your D.L.P. manifesto
in 1961, you talked about passing insurance legisla-
tion. Up to the other day, we had the Viking Insurance
Company which came in here and collected money,
soldthe policies in America to the British American
Life and they did not even pay their Agents here their
money. That is what has happened in this country.
Todaywe allowthat. You have Guyana National com-









1760


ing in here and collecting premiums and did not pay
the people under the Third Party Insurance Act. That
is what has happened in this country. Fly-by-night
Insurance companies can still come in here and
nothing comes from the other side in relation to that.
Let him not deny the fact that, as Minister of Finance,
he knows the responsibility and the importance as
a capital intermediary of any type of insurance in-
stitution. Do not let us talk about the lack of any
financial policy at all. Let us deal with the fact that
you find that today it is better because of your in-
fluence and of the powers that you have and the other
institutions semi-Government institutions, that you
can exercise influence on like, your Savings Bank,
your National Insurance Board or the Harbours Bet-
terment Fund, as well as the fact that after crop
season you know that, for a first periodof time,
there is a lot of loose money around, and people put
the money which they would normally put on deposit
account at the Banks at 3%, into Treasury Bills be-
cause they make a differential of five. You will find
that you have not yet cracked the amount of money
which is deposited in firms in Barbados. You have
not yet cracked the money which is deposited at
Wilkinson and Challenor, Plantations Limited none
of those firms. What has happened is that a lot of
money which should go into long-term house-building
investment and things like that, is going into these
firms. These firms are operating loans from the
Banks and the Banks are murdering the poor peo -
ple of Barbados by charging them nine per cent in-
terest. Deny the fact in here now, that the Banks do
not charge.9 1/4% interest! Deny that!

The question that this Resolution do now pass was put and
resolved in the affirmative without division.

EXCHANGE CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day also
stands in the name of the Hon. and Learned Prime
Minister: To move the second reading of a Bill to
amend the Exchange Control Act, 1967.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, late last
year we consolidated the Defence of the Realm (Ex-
change Control) Regulations in the context of being
an independent country and embodied this in the Ex-
change Control Act which was passed in December
last year. This Bill corrects certain printing and
typographical errors which appeared in that Act of
1967-53, and it further goes on to vest in the Ex-
change Control Authority power to make Orders of
limitedduration for regulating the opening and
closing of banks, amending the Act, suspending its op-
eration and for applying it with or without modifica-
tion in the interest of the economy of Barbados. The
Schedule to the Bill contains the amendments which
are largely, as I said before, typographical errors,
and the other Sections of the Bill give the Authority
under the Exchange Control Act the power to make
the necessary Orders for regulating the opening and
closing of Banks and for the amendment of the Act
otherthan this section, and for suspending the opera-
tion and any kind of the Act. These provisions are
all in keeping with the spirit of the Act itself, when I


intimated to the House that we would be bringing in
some measure which would vest in the Exchange
Control Authority, which is the Minister himself, the
power to carry out certain functions such as those
which are now envisaged by this amendment. I beg to
move that this Bill be now read a second time.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to second that.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I think
it is fair to say that when the Bill was introduced,
all those who were interested in it on both sides of
the House, including the Minister of Finance himself,
andcertainly includingspeakers on this side, recog-
nisedthat there was a number of sections in the Bill
which were not only inapplicable to Barbados, but
indeed, in some cases positively harmful, and the
very strong recommendations which were made by
the Law Society, I think, in respect of the sale of
land to foreign investors or to people domiciled in
North America, especially outside the sterling area
were,of course, accepted by the Minister of Finance.
Unless I am mistaken, an Order has already been
made under this Act, and I would be very glad if the
Ministerof Finance can confirm this because, in the
very short time available to me I only saw the Or-
der Paper at midday today I really was unable to
get hold of my copy of this year's subsidiary legis-
lation; but I think an Order has already been made
suspending those parts of the Exchange Control Act
which relate to the sale of land to persons domiciled
in hard currency areas, exempting certain sales.
At the time I wondered whether there was power in
the Act so to do, but I regret that laziness prevented
me from checking the Act carefully at the time, and,
in fact, I was unable even to do it today.
9.40 p.m.

I can say, Mr. Speaker, that we on this side
welcome the possibility that the Authority in this
case, the Minister of Finance, without having to
come to the House, will be able to correct what little
anomalies are to be found in the Act itself in relating
to Postal Orders, the taking of currency out of the
island etc. We are only too glad that the Authority
will be able to do these things without any particular
formality.

The only regret is that the Control Act was
drafted so thoughtlessly because in the first place
a draftsman without the necessary expertise being
applied to the subject under consideration may fall
down. You mayhave the best draftsman in the world,
but unless he gets a clear direction on the subject -
and in this case it would be from the Minister of Fi-
nance he may take the best legislation and copy it
regardless of whether or not it is applicable to Bar-
bados.


We welcome this Bill, and we assure the Minis-
ter of Finance that we wish him well in having these
powers to exercise under Section 35 or Section 41 of
the new Act. We are only glad for him to be able to
create an economic climate in which Barbados can
prosper.









1761


After all, if he makes any mistakes, we will be
able to place them precisely at his door.

The question that the Bill be read a second time wasput and
resolved in the affirmative without division.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to move that Your Hon-
our do now leave the Chair and the House go into
Committee on this Bill.

Hon, C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that,


The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and the House went into Committee on the Bill Mr.
YEARWOOD in the Chair.

Clauses 1 to 3 inclusive were called and passed.

On motion of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by Hon. C. E.
TALMA, the Schedule was called and passed,


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now report the passing of one
Bill in Committee.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. CHAIRMAN reported to Mr. SPEAKER
who resumed the Chair and reported accordingly.

On separate motions of Hon. J. C. TUDOR, seconded by
Hon. C. E. TALMA, the Bill was read a third time and passed.

BILL TO PROVIDE FOR LEGAL AID TO POOR
PRISONERS IN CERTAIN CRIMINAL CASES

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day stands
in the name of the Hon. Leader of the House. That
is, Order No. 6, and it is a Bill to make provision
for the grant to poor prisoners of legal aid in cer-
tain criminal cases.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, at the recently
concluded International Conference on Human Rights
in Teheran, it was recommended that Governments,
at least those who are members of the United Na-
tions Organisation, should encourage the develop-
ment of legal aid systems to protect human rights
and indeed to expand such protection as may from
time to time exist in various countries.

Ithinkthe hon. member, and certainly the learned
hon. members on the opposite side, are well aware
that a very wide system of legal aid has already for
some time existed in this island. The idea of the
U.N. is to widen it so that legal aid is granted both
in civil and criminal cases.

In the Commonwealth Caribbean, Jamaica alone
has a legal aid scheme in operation and this is con-
tained in their Poor Prisoners Defence Law of 1961.

The Bill now before the House, I think, sets out
clearly the offences in which legal aid will be granted


as well as the scale of fees payable to Counsel in
respect of cases for which a Legal Aid Certificate
has been granted.

Hon. members might wish, I dare say, to ask
questions arising out of their understanding of the
provisions of the Bill. I will try to answer them, if I
can, and assist with any points that arise.

I beg to move, Sir, that the Bill be read a second
time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I believe I am
right in saying that at a meeting of the Barbados Bar
Association some time ago a specific recommenda-
tion was made that the Government be requested to
pass legislation dealing with legal aid.
9.50 p.m.

We then felt, and this included the well-known
supporters of the Government on the other side, that
legal aid should be expanded and put on a more recog-
nisable and equitable system from the present hap-
hazard system which existed whereby the Chief
Justice, out of a vote under the Head of Judiciary,
would grant people charged with capital offences the
privilege of having a barrister at the Supreme Court
level.

It was then the conception of the Bar Associa-
tion that the matter should not be limited to crimi-
nal offences alone, but that it should be restricted in
the nature of the criminal offence. We felt that capi-
tal offences such as manslaughter and the allied or
akin offences of infanticide, concealment of birth
and so on should be included. We also felt that con-
stitutional cases involving points of law of exceptional
difficulty and at which the liberty of the subject was
at stake should be included. We felt that there should
be some provision for divorce cases caused by de-
sertion, because of the fact that in this society where
there is a high proportion of people who have to
emigrate, there is quite a lot of hardship and a tre-
mendous amount of expense in finding the other side
to the divorce suit in some far-flung part of the world.
We felt that these should be included.



Sir, the profession felt then that the amount paid
for capital offences was low. I remember the last
time I had an assignment, and I used to be the public
professional defender for a number of years in Bar-
bados. I have done more assignments in Barbados
than any other barrister. I have done at least 8 as-
signments. I do not believe in the theory that one
should run away from these assignments. I doubt
whether the Prime Minister can claim to have done
two. (Hon. E. W. BARROW: I have never done one.)
You have never done one because you do not like
murder cases.


Mr. SPEAKER: What is going on between two
hon. members?









1762


Hon. E. W. BARROW: On a point of order. I waq
merelypointing out that such cases are reserved for
the more indigent members of the profession.

Mr. SPEAKER: Did the hon. member say "in-
digent" or "indolent"?

Mr. St. JOHN: Ido not even mind if he says "ig-
norant", Sir. The only person who believes that I
am an ignorant lawyer is the Prime Minister. He
knows that the last occasion we clashed it cost his
client a lot of money.

Mr. SPEAKER: Lawyers must be careful not to
advertise.

Mr. St. JOHN: We can afford to do this now, Sir,
because we are not being reported any longer.

Mr. SPEAKER: What about the Hansard?

Mr. ST. JOHN: The Bar Association, as you
yourself, Mr. Speaker, will remember, felt that a
fee of fifty guineas, while it was sufficient for the
average run-of-the-mill murder case, was not suf-
ficient for a heavy murder case. Indeed the Chief
Justice, with the Council of the Bar Association,
had decided that the minimum fee would be fifty
guineas, but that the Chief Justice would have a dis-
cretion to award a larger fee if he felt that the case
was one of exceptional difficulty.

Not so long ago I am not commenting on the
merits of the case I was assigned at the Court of
Appeal level by the Chief Justice to do an appeal.
Another barrister was assigned at the lower Court
level. The question arose of taking the case higher.
I can say that the provision for legal aid under this
Bill is certainly inadequate. It is no use paying a
barrister, say $100 and when he has to advise his
client he has to incur expenditure which may result
in more than $100. If you have to advise a client
about an appeal, it is necessary to draw the docu-
ments of the appeal; you have to prepare a record,
and there is nothing in this Bill to provide for legi-
timate disbursements. That has happened to me. I
was assigned here, but to take the case somewhere
else it is necessary to retain people from abroad. It
is necessary to send up the record. Who had to pay
for the cost of the record? Do not mind how indigent
I was; I had to foot the bill.

Sir, under this Bill there is a definite defect in
relation to disbursements. Now let us look at the
scale of fees in the Schedule. "A fee of seventy-five
dollars for a trial. If the trial lasts longer than one
day, an additional fee of forty dollars for each day
after the first. Notwithstanding paragraphs 1 and 2
the total fee in respect of any preliminary enquiry
shall not exceed one hundred and ten dollars." Of
course, this refers to a plea of guilty. Now, who is
going into the Supreme Court and plead guilty for any -
body for $407 I am sure that in the Chambers in
James Street that the Prime Minister still rents,
you will not find one barrister in there who would go
in the Supreme Court for forty dollars.


Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I am accus-
tomed to the vulgarity of the hon. member.

Mr. SPEAKER: On what is the hon. member
speaking?

Hon. E. W. BARROW: On a point of order, Sir.
I do not rent any Chambers in James Street, or any
other part of the world. The hon. member is making
a very silly and certainly offensive aspersion that I,
as Minister of Finance, rent Law Chambers. I do not
rent any Law Chambers.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member has made his
point of order.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: He is only a dirty, little
plantation guttersnipe...... (ASIDES)

Mr. SPEAKER: This sitting now stands sus-
pended for fifteen minutes.
10.00 p.m.
On Resumption:
Mr. SPEAKER: When the Sitting was suspended
for grave disorder, that was so done because of what
I regarded as the unseemly, regrettable conduct by
hon. members, one on each side of this House, I do
not propose to hear either of those or in fact any
hon. member in respect of that incident. By sus-
pending the Sitting of the House, I gave what I in-
tendedto be a clear indication of my aversion to and
disgust at the conduct; but I realise, as I have sat
previously around the Table, that there are times
when tempers are frayed. I realise that this Sitting
startedat 12 o'clock noon and we are now approach-
ing midnight. I make allowances for a long and trying
Sitting.

Before this matter is resumed and if it is re-
sumed, it must be resumed as if the unseemly, and I
say quite advisedly, deplorable conduct had never
occurred, and we recommence de novo, I am not
entertaining any discussion or points in respect of
anything which has transpired some time ago. So far
as I am concerned, the suspension for grave dis-
order has indicated the Chair's extreme disapproval
of the conduct. I hope and believe there will not be a
recurrence. There has been ample time for hon.
members to cool. There was a severe give-and-take;
the honours as a whole, I would think, were even; but
I am not concerned with that anymore. The Sitting
was suspended because of grave disorder, and we
shall resume in, as I hope, perfect order and con-
tinue in order until the end of the evening so that we
may conclude a long, arduous but very good day's
work.

Itrust there will be no recriminations by either
side and no attempt by either side to revert to that
which unfortunately did take place. I apologise to
hon. members for speaking at such length, but I am
sure that a word to the wise or words to the wise
will suffice, and we will continue this evening's Sit-
ting without any further incident, and complete the
people's work for the day. Hon. members, I am look-
ing for co-operation from both sides and on both









1763


gides, and in anticipation I thank hon. members on
both sides.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, as I was saying,
there can be no objections to the principle of the
granting of legal aid. The area of contention can be
in respect of the scope of the legal aid and the na-
ture of the offences, the criminal offences which
are included in the Bill and the absence of provision
for legal aid in cases which one may classify as
constitutional cases of exceptional difficulty.

I would like to know, Sir, from the Hon. Minis-
ter who introduced the Bill whether the Council of
the Barbados Bar Association has agreed to the fees
which are set out in the Second Schedule to this Bill.
It seems to me that they are substantially less, cer-
tainly in capital offences, than those which are al-
lowednow by the Chief Justice under the Head of the
Estimates "Judiciary". I do not believe that the
Draft Bill, if it was sent to the Bar Association, con-
tained the Schedules when it was so sent, and I think
this is an important matter. One does not want to
have a wrangle between members of the legal pro-
fession and the Judicial Advisory Council in respect
of these matters. I would have thought that overtures
would have been made by the relevant Ministry to
the BarAssociation in respect of the fees in the Sche-
dule, and I would like to know whether there is any
reason for reducing the fees in respect of capital
offences to the fee they now have.

I againdraw to the Hon. Minister's attention that
in the Schedule it says "a fee not exceeding $25 for
advice to the convicted person as to whether he has
anygroundforappealor for any application for leave
to appeal and for the drafting of all necessary docu-
mentswhere the convicted person appeals or applies
for leave to appeal." If you have to draft documents
and prepare a record, in my s:.bmission the fee of
$25 is an unreasonably low fee. If one has to pay
secretarial services or have it done in one's office,
it is unreasonably low. There should definitely be an
additional fee on to all of these to cover disburse-
ments by barristers. In the criminal cases in this
country, one does not have the intervention of a so-
licitor. I also see an important gap of principle in
part III on page 11 where it says "in relation to an ap-
peal to Her Majesty in Council an additional fee of
$25.00 for -dvice to the convicted person as to whe-
ther he has any ground for appeal or for an applica-
tion for leave to appeal and for the drafting of all
necessary documents where the convicted person
appeals or applies for leave to appeal."

Sir, underthe regulations made by the Governor-
General pursuant to the Adaptation Orders made un-
derthe Independence Order of Barbados, the Minister
of Home Affairs has made certain regulations in re-
lation to appeals by persons under sentence of death
to the Privy Council. One of these regulations states
that where a person appeals and the appeal is not in
forma pauperis that within the date fixed by the Min-
ister of Home Affairs which shall not be less than
three weeks afternotification, the appellant must sa-
tisfy the Ministry of Home Affairs that the applica-


tion for leave to appeal and the record have been
transmitted to Solicitors in England or Privy Coun-
cil Agents. It also says that the applicant for leave
must satisfy the Minister that fees to the extent of
65guineas have been sent on to the Solicitors in Eng-
land.
10.25 p.m.

A person's position can be hopelessly compro-
mised if he has a Legal Aid certificate, and there is
no provision in this Legal Aid Bill for the recoup-
ment of barristers for having the fees to send on to
England. If it is an in forma pauperis application,
the rules do not make provision for any fees to be
sent on, but I can assure this House that I have had
experience in this matter, and the minimum fees de-
manded by solicitors in England, those who will take
in forma pauperis work, is +-25. You must send on
all of that together with a copy of the Court of Ap-
peal's judgment, a copy of the record certified by
the Registrar, and you must have an affidavit by the
appellant that he is not worth in the world, excluding
wearing apparel, t.100 and a certificate by Counsel
that there is a reasonable ground of appeal in his
opinion. The concept of providing legal aid is some-
thing on which the profession has taken a decision.
This Bill extends the existing system, but it does not
appear to me that it will be workable in practice sa-
tisfactorily unless the fees ar- increased to the
scale which is presently permitted, and unless dis-
bursements are catered for.

I also want to draw to the attention of the House
and this is the actual experience which barristers
have that if you are assigned to do a murder case
here, and a question of insanity arises and you wish
to have an opinion from a psychiatrist other: than
those who are practising at the Mental Hospital I
am not casting any reflection on them, but it is known
that, for a long period of time, the psychiatrists who
are attached to the Government do not like to come
forward and give evidence which is likely to result
in a prisoner being found by a jury to be guilty, but
at the particular period of time, labouring from such
a defect of reason as not to be responsible. Th.ny all
tell you, quite frankly, that they have no facilities
forthe treatment of criminal lunatics at the existing
Institution in Barbados. Therefore, one does get
some difficulty ingettingpsychiatrists' advice. There
are, of course, psychiatrists in general practice -
there is now a retired psychiatrist for the Mental
Hospital, but there is no provision in this Bill in ad-
dition to the fee to cover the disbursement, to get
reasonable advice from expert witnesses. That is
another defect in this Bill. Those are two practical
defects which we can point out straight away. If you
have to summon other expert witnesses let us take
it that you have a question of rape. It may be that yoj
may want an opinion from a laboratory, and the Pa-
thologist here may want to get an opinion from an-
other laboratory. Again, there is nothing to cover
expenses reasonably incurred, and I do not think that
it should be left to the whim and fancy of the person
who has been assigned a Certificate to incur all kinds
of expenses. I see that there will be a provision for
reasonable disbursements which, on a certificate of









1764


-the judge, were necessary; otherwise you are plac-
ing an accused person at a disadvantage vis-a-vis
another person who has the resources necessary to
fight charges of the nature as specified in the First
Schedule to the Bill. The whole aim and objective of
the Bill is that these are serious charges,and you do
not want any person, because of poverty, to be placed
in a disadvantageous position.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, nearly
all the ground which could reasonably be covered in
this Bill, has already been covered by my friend, the
hon. and learned senior member for Christ Church,
but I would like to add,particularly inone or two re-
spects, my comments in support of the remarks
which the hon. member has made. First of all, Mr.
Speaker, at the rish of seeming to be avaricious,
which is not a real risk, in fact, because I do not
extensively deal in assignments. I have indeed done
assignments both in murder and on appeal to the
former British Caribbean Court of Appeal; but, in
fact, my practice is not as extensive in that direc-
tion as that of the hon. member. Nothing in the scale
of fees that I see here would make me feel anxious
to extend my experience. It is not that I think any
Counsel should refuse his expertise such as he pos -
sesses if called upon; but barristers with expertise
generally have a large number of clients, and it is
invariably the case even in the middle-of-the-year
Assizes when things in the Supreme Court are slack
- it is invariably the case that Assize work so in-
terferes with the normal daily run of a barrister's
practice that to do Assize work at all, for barristers
who practise in the Civil Courts and who practise
generally, it means that a number of other cases
have to be re-arranged.

Mr. Speaker, how can a barrister with a duty to
his already existing clients, be prepared to re-
arrange a case for which he might have been paid
more than $75.00 to appear in a Magistrate's Court,
to go and do a murder case in the High Court? Mr.
Speaker, it simply cannot be done in the Chambers
of the barristers who might be in a position to give
the greatest assistance in these difficult cases to
which this Act refers. It simply cannot be done, in
my respectful I was going to say in my respectful
opinion, but in this Chamber at least Ican say, in my
opinion. We see here that no fees shall be allowed or
paid for any day onwhich the hearingof a case con-
sists of the consideration of the penalty, if any, to be
imposed on conviction for an offence andthe imposi-
tion or non-imposition of a penalty. How meaningful
is that? In many cases, the significance of the mat-
ter at a certain stage is the penalty, but it is sug-
gested that a barrister cannot receive any hearing
fee for the day on which the penalty is considered.
Suppose a barrister attends the preliminary inquiry
He gets paid for the preliminary inquiry and as a re -
sult of what he hears andwhathe is told, he advises
his client to plead guilty and rely on certain aspects
of the case to mitigate. The case is then sent to the
Assizes for this guilty plea in these circumstances,
and you cannot draw apparently a day's pay for ar-
guments about penalty. Those are only points to be
considered when you really look at the size of the


fee. It may be that those who are responsible for
fixing them are somewhat remote from their prac-
tising days, or if not remote from their practising
days, they are drawing on their experience in re-
spect of fees which they used to enjoy during their
period, such as it was, in active practice.

Mr. Speaker, I do not think that this is a point
of order, but I should state that there is a cock-
roach under the Opposition benches and it has caused;
I think, some slight inconvenience. It may be said that
it came from the direction of the Government benches
during the period of the suspension of the sitting. I
do not know what significance that is, but perhaps if
the Marshal would be kind enough to come and pre-
vent it from once again running up my trousers legs,
I shall be very happy to think that it has been executed.
10.35 p.m.

I ask the indulgence of hon. members if they see
me jumping. It is this particular insect that is caus -
ing one or two worries from time to time. Mr.
Speaker, Sir, I want to support the Bill, but there
should be a revision of the fees.

It is useless to ask any Counsel to take $25.00
for the drafting of the necessary documents. Unless
I am mistaken, you have to send something like 40
copies. The ultimate number of documents required
by the Privy Council is 40. I have seen nuinerous
appeals during the period when I was in Sir Dingle
Foot's chambers in London.

In appeals monies have to be paid, not perhaps in
the three thousand guineas scale that Mr. Foot would
have required, but substantial monies had to pass
through solicitors' hands, and the least you have to
start off with is f25.

This Act has a provision to give Counsel a fee of
$25.00. I do not know any Counsel, even those who
would not get a brief from weeks beginning on week's
end and for months beginning on month's end who
would for $25.00 undertake a Privy Council appeal
which may take you every afternoon for a week.

It is not a cheap job, as you will well know, Sir.
I dare say that Your Honour's fees would be so ex-
orbitant you have so lost touch with the market of
preparing Privy Council appeals that the pauper
appellant would quite be unable even to shake Your
Honour's hand in respect of a matter such as this.

To receive a fee of $25.00 to prepare an appeal
to Her Majesty-in-Council is merely to say thatpri-
soners will have to find their own money if they want
to go to the Privy Council. It should be at least
doubled or trebled, and a further amount of $120 pro-
vided for disbursement to the London solicitors. In
other words, to that extent, legal aid should cover
outside and local practitioners.

Mr. Speaker, a former speaker did not perhaps
indicate what fees used to be payable in the British
Caribbean Court of Appeal, but I can say that they
far exceeded the fees which are set out in Part 3 of









1765


the Schedule to the Act. I do not know of any case
where the British Caribbean Court of Appeal assigned
Counsel and less than L25 was paid to Counsel, and
that would be after the record had been prepared by
the Registrar of the Caribbean Court of Appeal, and
Counsel would go to the case with documents ready
made. He would be told what to do, and after that the
L25 is paid.

To reduce these fees today with rising costs is
not very realistic. The Hon. Leader of the House, in
introducing this Bill said that it was based on Ja-
maican legislation and he referred to legal aid in
Britain. In Britain it is supposedto be a contributory
scheme because the object is not to get a barrister
who cannot practise, but legal aid was established
in Britain to help poor people who needed it, and a
very important part of legal aid is in respect of il -
legal cases on the hire-purchase basis, so much so
that analysis revealed that in legal aid in divorce,
in many cases obtained through cut-price solicitors,
by the time you paid instalments every week, you
could have paid a good lawyer to whom you could not
offer instalments.

You might take five years to pay back the cost
of the legal aid, butatleastyouwill get the very best
that was available to you. In these days of National
Insurance, it should not be beyond the wit of the
draftsman to find some provision which could re-
flect this advance in the legal aid system.

Clause 4 says that "where it appears to the ap-
propriate authority that the means of a person charged
with or, as the case may be, convicted for a sche-
duled offence are insufficient to enable that person..."

How can you convince a magistrate that you do
not have enough means? I have a feeling that if the
appropriate authority says that you are not going to
get a Certificate, that is the end of the matter.

You, Sir, I have no doubt, have some knowledge
and, experience of what happens in those juris-
dictions where Magistrates' decisions are final.
Unless Iam mistaken, you have had a recent experi-
ence of what happens when a Magistrate is given
power from which an appeal is difficult. What is
more important to him is to know that his decision
is final.

What happens when you go before a Magistrate
and he says that you do not deserve legal aid? These
things can happen. I think it would be much better if
there was an independent body making some exa-
mination of the means of an accused person. After
all, an accused person may want to take a particular
Counsel in a murder case, and if he knows that it
will cost $1,500 and that he can raise half he would
be glad to pay half and pay the rest; but under this
scheme he might be debarred from getting that Coun-
sel at all. He may have to get cheaper Counsel and
not the Counsel of his choice because he does not
have the $1,500.

Those are considerations which, I think, should
be given greater weight than they appear to be given


in the Bill now before us judging from the speech of
the Leader of the House, and the deliberations which
led up to its drafting.
10.45 p.m.

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to support the hon.
senior member for Christ Church in one particular
respect. It is not only criminal cases where legal
aid is required. It is the policy of the Barbados
Labour Party that if returned to power we will make
legal aid available in High Court matrimonial matters
to persons who wish to have divorces, or for various
reasons which will regularise their family position
in the very awkward situation in which many people
find themselves. There are 65,000 Barbadians living
outside the Island. These were the statistics given to
me in London, and it is the policy of the Barbados La-
bour Party that legal aid would be made available in
such matters. I regret that it could not have been
made available under this Act.

The manifestoes of 1961 and in the 1966 General
Elections of the Barbados Labour Party, unlike those
of other Parties, have contained provisions offering
legal aid as one of the platforms of our policy, and
it continues to be such a platform. For one thing, Mr.
Speaker, it is a question of expense. I do not know
what statistics the Minister has infront of him. He
may have statistics for indictable offences inayear.
It may seem that we are part of the greaf Trade
Union of lawyers talking on this side and calling for
more money. It may seem that we are not practising
the principles of economy which we so often preach
from these benches to the Minister.
Mr. Speaker, with approximately 100 indictable
cases in a year, if so many, what will the fees cost?
How many murder cases do we have in a year in
Barbados? About five or six cases. (An hon. Member:
Do you want us to have more?) I do not think hon.
members wish to punish the Prime Minister to that
extent tonight, Mr. Speaker. He has been naughty, but
we will not do that to him. Suppose there are 100 in-
dictable cases a year, leaving out those capably
monopolised by Counsel outside this House. I have
not seen Your Honour in a larceny case for a long
time, but I dare say Your Honour will perform as
creditably as anyone else. Perhaps Your Honour's
practice does not lie in that direction.

So far as infanticide and concealment of birth
are concerned, in my practice, limited though it is,
I have not seen a charge of concealment of birth
brought. I think I can recall a charge of infanticide
brought in Barbados, but I cannot recall a charge of
concealment of birth. In fact, Mr. Speaker, I did not
know that it existed in Barbados. I did not know that
we had an Infanticide Act, Mr. Speaker, until quite
recently. Leaving those aside, how many cases will
qualify for legal aid? If the Judges are generous,
perhaps, 20 (10 cases which are liable to a maxi-
mum fee of $100, and 10 cases whichwould be liable
to a higher maximum fee than that.) Suppose every
murder case went on for four days, the fees would
not amount to $1,000. Suppose there were 20 more
cases and they attracted a fee of $150, then this en-
tire scheme should be administrable on less than
$10,000 a year.









1766


Mr. Speaker, I do not know what financial cal-
culations the Minister has. (Asides) I,perhaps,have
left out the Civil Service staff. Suppose we spend
$11,000 a year, what is $11,000 year for defending
poor people who may genuinely be innocent and who
may genuinely require defence? These fees are such
that only Counsel that do not work could afford to ac-
cept. It is not a question of beingtoo great to accept
the money. It is a questionof havingpeople's work to
deal with, and you cannot set aside the work of the
people casually like that. You cannot just put down
people's work six or eight times to go to the High
Court to deal with assignments. Letus thinkof those
things.

Mr. Speaker, I appeal to the Prime Minister to
reconsider the size of the fees, especially in the light
of the fact that the entire fees will cost the Govern-
ment little money. What is $20,000 compared to what
was spent on the C.B.C.? One defalcation at the Bar-
bados Marketing Corporation will pay for a whole
year's legal aid, not withstanding the amount of money
that it loses every year. We are pinching at the pen-
nies where twenty or thirty persons are facingGlen-
dairy Prison or hanging. We still have capital
punishment, and this Government seems to be bring-
ing it back with more force than ever. We cannot af-
ford this amount for legal aid, but $2 1/2 million is
what is asked for at the C.B.C.!

One last thing, Mr. Speaker. Section 11 (2)
states that a prisoner who gets legal aid and is con-
victed can be made to pay back the legal aid. What
is the point of that? If he has no means to get Coun-
sel in the first instance, what is the point of saying
he should be ordered to pay back what Counsel had to
be paid if he is convicted? Suppose he applies for a
Legal Aid Certificate, the cheap lawyer lets him down
and he gets convicted, then the period of his impris -
onment will be extended because he will be unable
to pay back what had been expended. It has never been
suggested that a murderer should have to pay back
the fees for his defence if he is convicted. Perhaps
the man cannot afford to pay the fees in the first
place, but if he is convicted he will.have to pay them
back Let the Minister bear that in mind.

The question that the Bill be read a second time was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and the
House go into Committee on this Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the House
went into Committee on the Bill, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

10.55 p.m.


Clauses 1 to 8 inclusive were called and passed.


Clause 9 was called. It reads as follows:-


9. The Judicial Advisory Council may make
rules prescribing the manner in which counsel shall
be assignedunder a legal aid certificate and generally
for carrying this Act into effect.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, Ibegto move
that Clause 9 stand part.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to second that.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, on this
question of the Judicial Advisory Council, I see that
that body continues to be referred to in respect of
statutes, and indeed we occasionally hear around the
Courts again in respectful tones that the Judicial
Council will provide; but the Judicial Advisory Coun-
cil, Mr. Chairman, as far as I can see, has provided
nothing since, so to speak, Manna was provided for
the Israelites. I certainly can recall nothing that the
Judicial Advisory Council has actually done for a
number of years, and I wonder how far they are func-
tioning as a Law Reform body, and how far they are
really functioning as a body which is going to make
rules respecting a matter of this sort. I do not even
know who the Judicial Advisory Council now are. I
seem to remember that Mr. Speaker was once a mem -
ber in another guise. I do not know if there are any
practising members of the Bar; I do not know if there
is any provision for the President of the Bar Asso-
ciation to be there. I really have no idea. I do not
know if the expression "Judical Advisory Council"
means a Council of Judges to advise somebody,or it
means an Advisory Council to advise the Judges. I
would be glad to hear from the Minister who they are,
what function they are now undertaking, and what
guarantee we have that these rules will be made by
the Council.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I am afraid the hon. member
has me at a disadvantage. I am sure there is such a
body, and it does appear to me to have some powers
conferred on it by Section 9 or will have some powers
conferred on it under this Act. I am to assume that
it will have to meet pretty soon in the light of this
legislation.

Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, the Judicial Ad-
visory Council is constituted under the Supreme
Court of Judicature Act as amended, but the problem
is that you must have, Ithink, either ten out of eleven
or nine out of ten members present so as to con-
stitute a quorum. The difficulty is that with its com-
position, it is not always easy to get a quorum and it
meets very infrequently. It is the Authority that
makes the rules under the Supreme Court of Judica-
ture Act and under the Magistrates' Courts Act and
a number of other Acts, but it has not been meeting
regularly because of this difficulty with a quorum.
The proposals are to amend that to have the usual
one-third or half or whatever it is as a quorum.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I am grateful to the hon.
member. I do recall of course the existence of the
Body, but quite frankly I have not heard of it for
quite some time. I expect my colleague, the Attorney
General, is well aware of this and has devised some









1767


means of making the body meet whether with a quo-
rum or not.

The question that Clause 9 stand part was put and re-
solved in the affirmative without division.

Clauses 10 to 12 inclusive were called and passed.

The First Schedule was called. It reads as follows:-

FIRST SCHEDULE

Section 2

OFFENCES IN RELATION TO WHICH A LEGAL
AID CERTIFICATE MAY BE GIVEN

1. Any capital offence.
2. Manslaughter.
3. Infanticide.
4. Concealment of birth.
5. Rape.
6. Any indictable offence the trial of which is
certified by the trial Judge to be, or as
likely to be, of exceptional difficulty and to
require the assistance of counsel on behalf
of the person charged therewith for its
proper determination.
7. Any indictable offence the trial of which
or an appeal from the conviction of which
is certified by the trial Judge or the Court
of Appeal, as the case maybe, to involve or
as likely to involve, a pointoflawof public
importance and to require the assistance
of counsel on behalf of the person charged
or convicted, as the case may be, for its
proper determination.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Chairman, Ibegto move
that this be the First Schedule.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I beg to second that

Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, Ienquired of the
Hon. Minister who introduced this Bill whether the
Schedule had been sent to the Bar Association or
whether this Draft Bill with the Schedule in it had
been sent to the Council of the Barbados Bar Asso-
ciation for their comments.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I amnot ina position to give
the hon. member that assurance, although I do see
that there has been considerable consultation between
the Solicitor General, the Registrar andothersimi-
larly placed officials in the Judicial and Legal Ser-
vices. Whether more extensive consultation has taken
place informally I expect it has or not, I do not
know, but I certainly knowthat between the Solicitor
General and the Registrar there has been pretty ex-
tensive and thorough consultation.


The question that the First Schedule stand part was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.

The Second Schedule was called and passed.
On motion of Hon. C. E. TALMA, seconded by Hon. J. C.
TUDOR, Mr. CHAIRMAN reported the passing of one Bill in


Committee, and Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair and reported
accordingly.



On separate motions of Hon. C. E. TALMA, seconded by
Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS, the Bill was read a third time and
passed.
11.05 p.m.



BARBADOS HARBOURS (AMENDMENT)
(No. 2) BILL

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Order No. 8 be taken as the next Order of the
Day.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day stands
in the name of the Hon. Minister of Communications
and Works:- To move the second reading of a Bill
to amend the Barbados Harbours Act, 1960.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Speaker,this is a very
small amendment. As the "Objects and Reasons"
set out, "This Bill seeks to amend the Barbados
Harbours Act 1960-29 in order to limit the liability
of berthing masters employed in the Port Depart-
ment for negligent navigation in the course of their
duties under the Act to the sum of five hundred dol-
lars. Provision for regulations to be made for this
purpose appears in Section 53(1) (a) (vi) of the Act
but since further provisions are required relating to
the powers of the Court in which proceedings are
brought against a berthing master for such negli-
gence it is thought desirable, to achieve the objects
by amendment to the Act rather than by regulations."

This arises out of the fact that the berthing mas -
ters seem to be finding some difficulty in getting In-
surance Companies to take out full insurance in case
of these things happening, and it is quite likely that a
berthing master in bringing in one of these ships,
can give the rightcall on the telegraph, but it might
be answered wrongly on the tell-tale down below, and
the Captain who must always be on the bridge when a
ship is coming in, might say that it was not really the
fault of the engine room. I remember some years
ago that we had an accident with a ship coming into
port, and the engineer or watch was honest enough
to admit that he gave the wrong signal. He had the
signal to go astern, but something went wrong. He
gave the wrong signal and the ship went ahead and hit
the sugar terminal but fortunately, for us, it was the
third one, and brought down one of the loading towers.
In order to indemnify the pilots from any excessive
amount of litigation, the Government thinks that this
is the best thing to do. I begto move that this Bill be
now read a second time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.









1768


Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, I can understand
and appreciate the difficulty which the berthing mas -
ters have in getting insurance, but Iwonder if, in the
Minister's file, consideration was taken into account
that one of the people who would be likely to be in-
volved in this, as the last case, is the Government
itself. I was involved in the matter which the Min-
ister talked about, and although the piece of equip-
ment was vested in the Sugar Terminals, the
Government had a great interest in it. Suppose these
ships, as a result of the negligence of the berthing
master himself, hit a part of the pier! My memory
of the regulations is that the berthing master is the
agent of the ship and not of the Government. Perhaps
they have taken all of these matters into considera-
tion, because it may be that the Government them-
selves might find that they are the people who suffer
the damage and that in future, as to their insurance
of the Harbour as such, they may have difficulty in
getting people to re-insure the quays and other parts
of the Harbour on which they carry the insurance.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker,the Min-
ister can deal with both things. As far as I am con -
cerned, this question is a simple one. Is the liability
being limited to $500.00 or is the individual's liability
being limited to that? I think it would be monstrous
if you said, for instance,that some berthing master -
I am not, for one minute, suggesting that any of the
berthing masters at present employed by the Port
is in this position but suppose some berthing mas -
ter gets drunk and brings in a ship just in front of the
Customs Shed and it goes through that piece of the
Harbour and kills two or three people Do you mean
to say that their dependants can get nothing I would
like to be assured that the matter has been considered
in that light by the Government. Apart from the pos -
sibility of damage to Government property such as
the crane, the quays, the side of the Harbour and so
on, the trouble which the Government would have to
salvage a ship which sank in the Harbour as the re-
sult of negligence in pilotage-apart from that entirely
I very much hope that the Minister can tell us defi-
nitely and decisively that the persons who are harmed
through the negligent management of the ships in the
Bridgetown Harbour, are going to be able to recover
their money from somebody. I have every sympathy
for the berthing masters, but you cannot just let
ships come in there and say that $500.00 will be the
maximum amount of damages paid for any damages
that negligent pilotage of a ship might cause.


Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Mr. Speaker, one of the
things that is very pertinent about ships is that des -
pite the fact that a pilot is bringing in a ship, the
Captain never ceases to be the captain. If a pilot
is bringing in a ship and the Captain himself has
any doubt about the pilot bringing in the ship, he
takes the ship out of his hands. The captain is still
responsible for the ship, no matter what happens.
Even if the captain is sleeping and the ship gets into
an accident, he is still responsible for the ship. It
means that a captain is not supposed to sleep, ac-
cording to the maritime laws.
11.15 p.m.


I see here that the Attorney General stated that
there seemed to be no need for the limitation, and
that the Bill was based on provisions of the Trinidad
and Tobago legislation where pilots are not employed
by the company.

To be truthful, the hon. senior member for St.
Thomas has just raised a very pertinent point be-
cause I am still at a loss myself to know whatwill
be the position if a ship comes in and someone is
drunk and hits something. What would be the position
with a person who gets hurt? I think that the ship's
owners would be liable for damages and the agents

The question that the Bill be now read a second time was
put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: I beg to move that Your
Honour do now leave the Chair and the House go into
Committee on the Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the House
went into Committee on the Bill, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

Clauses 1 to 3 inclusive were called and agreed to.

On motion of Hon. H. W. BOXILL, seconded by Hon. C. E.
TALMA, the passing of the Bill in Committee was reported, and
Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair and reported accordingly.


On separate motions of Hon. N. W. BOXILL, seconded by
Hon. C. E. TALMA, the Bill was read a third time and passed.


BILL TO AMEND TOWN AND COUNTRY
PLANNING ACT

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day stands
in the name of the Hon. Leader of the House and it is
to move the second reading of a Bill to amend the
Town and Country Planning Act, 1965.

Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, Sir, before we deal
with this Bill, I do not know if it is known generally
on the other side that this Bill only reached me yes -
terday. There were two additional Bills which were
sent to my Chamber in addition to the rest which
came at the normal time. My friend has just agreed
with me, and he says that he only got his yesterday.

I do not think it is fair to us to deal with it to-
day.

Mr. SPEAKER: Mr. Clerk has informedme that
it is a fact that this and another Bill went out for the
first time yesterday.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, the hon. mem-
ber is quite right, as I myself understood earlier
this evening. In view of that, I will not proceed with
it now. So this concludes Government Business and
I beg to move that this House do now adjourn until
Tuesday 2nd July at 2.30 p.m.









1769


At the end of Private Members' Business,which
is at 4.30 p.m., and Government Business is resumed,
the Hon. and Learned Prime Minister and Minister
of Finance proposes to make his Budgetary State-
ment and Fiscal Proposals for the year 1968-69.


Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House accordingly.

11.25 p.m.







Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 21
Supplement to Official Gazette No. 28 dated 7th April, 1969.


S.I. 1969 No. 63

The Customs Act, 1962

ORDER MADE UNDER SECTION 25 OF THE
CUSTOMS ACT, 1962
The Minister in exercise of the powers conferred
on him by section 25 of the Customs Act, 1962, here-
by makes the following Order:-

1. This Order may be cited as the Customs Duties
(Gasolene, Lubricating Oil and Hydraulic Fluid for
use in the Air-Sea Rescue Launch) Order, 1969.

2. Part III of the First Schedule to the Customs
Act, 1962 is hereby amended by adding thereto the
following new item:-


219 All gasolene, lubricating oils
and hydraulic fluid imported for
use exclusively in the air/sea
rescue launch operated jointly
by the Barbados Harbour Police
and the High Altitude Research
Project on the certificate to that
effect of the Assistant Manager
of the High Altitude Research
Project."


Made by the Minister this 28th day of March, 1969.

(Sgd.) ERROL W. BARROW
Minister of Finance.


"Air/Sea
rescue launch.




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