• TABLE OF CONTENTS
HIDE
 Main
 Supplement: House of Assembly Debates...
 Statutory Instruments Supplement...
 Statutory Instruments Supplement...
 Supplement: Act 1968-52: Carribean...
 Supplement: Act 1968-53: Evidence...
 Supplement: Act 1968-54: Sugar...














Group Title: Official gazette, Barbados
Title: The official gazette
ALL VOLUMES CITATION THUMBNAILS PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00076861/00060
 Material Information
Title: The official gazette
Physical Description: v. : ill. ; 33-42 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Barbados
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: BridgetownBarbados Published by authority
 Subjects
Subject: Law -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Genre: periodical   ( marcgt )
 Notes
General Note: Caption title.
General Note: Supplements issued for some of the numbers.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00076861
Volume ID: VID00060
Source Institution: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: aleph - 001043625
oclc - 12594829
notis - AFC6434

Table of Contents
    Main
        Page 13
        Page 14
        Page 15
        Page 16
        Page 17
        Page 18
        Page 19
        Page 20
        Page 21
        Page 22
        Page 23
        Page 24
        Page 25
        Page 26
        Page 27
        Page 28
        Page 29
        Page 30
    Supplement: House of Assembly Debates for 27th March, 1968
        Page A-1541
        Page A-1542
        Page A-1543
        Page A-1544
        Page A-1545
        Page A-1546
        Page A-1547
        Page A-1548
        Page A-1549
        Page A-1550
        Page A-1551
        Page A-1552
        Page A-1553
        Page A-1554
        Page A-1555
        Page A-1556
        Page A-1557
        Page A-1558
        Page A-1559
        Page A-1560
        Page A-1561
        Page A-1562
        Page A-1563
        Page A-1564
        Page A-1565
        Page A-1566
        Page A-1567
        Page A-1568
        Page A-1569
        Page A-1570
        Page A-1571
        Page A-1572
        Page A-1573
        Page A-1574
        Page A-1575
        Page A-1576
        Page A-1577
        Page A-1578
        Page A-1579
        Page A-1580
        Page A-1581
        Page A-1582
        Page A-1583
        Page A-1584
        Page A-1585
        Page A-1586
        Page A-1587
        Page A-1588
        Page A-1589
        Page A-1590
    Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 3; S.I. 2
        Page B-1
    Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 3; S.I. 3
        Page B-2
        Page B-3
        Page B-4
    Supplement: Act 1968-52: Carribean Meteorological Council (Incorporation) Act, 1968
        Page C-i
        Page C-ii
        Page C-1
        Page C-2
    Supplement: Act 1968-53: Evidence (Amendment) Act, 1968
        Page D-1
        Page D-2
        Page D-3
        Page D-4
    Supplement: Act 1968-54: Sugar Workers (Provident Fund) Act, 1968
        Page E-i
        Page E-ii
        Page E-1
        Page E-2
        Page E-3
        Page E-4
        Page E-5
        Page E-6
        Page E-7
        Page E-8
        Page E-9
        Page E-10
        Page E-11
        Page E-12
        Page E-13
        Page E-14
        Page E-15
        Page E-16
        Page E-17
Full Text













NO. 3


(94f


officiall


(Samett


PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY


BRIDGETOWN, BARBADOS, 9TH JANUARY, 1969


TABLE OF CONTENTS
Gazette Notices
Acting Appointments:
Y. Bannister, Magistrate, as Parliamentary
Counsel.....................................
W. A. Davis, Magistrate, as Deputy Crown
Solicitor....................................
F. L. Harding, Clerical Officer, as
Administrative Assistant..............
G. A. A. Maynard, Deputy Crown Solicitor,
as Registrar................................
H. S. L. Moseley, Magistrate, as Parlia-
mentary Counsel...........................
Appointment: Miss Angela Tello to be Statistical
Assistant..........................................
Commonwealth Caribbean Regional Secretariat:
Vacancy for Librarian..............................
Correction re publication of Shops Act, 1968(1968-50)
In the Supreme Court of Judicature:
Bayley vs Herbert; Clarke vs Jones........
Edwards vs Smith et al; Edwards vs Sobers
Jules vs Brathwaite; Power vs Cheltenham
Power vs Gilkes; Skinner vs DePeiza.....
Skinner vs St. John...............................
Industrial Incentives Act in respect of Cricket
bats and hockey sticks...........................
Probate Advertisements dated 3rd January, 1969
Resignation: Hugh D. Graham, Clerical Officer.
Resolutions: Nos. 110 to 114/1968.................. 2
Trade Marks: "Asombra", "C.A.V." etc........... 18-
Vacant Post: Chief Marine Engineer...............


13

13

14

13

14

14

25
13

15, 17
15,17
15, 17
16
16

14
24
14
;6- 29
24,30
14


House of Assembly Debates for 27th March, 1968
Legal Supplement
S.I. 1969 No. 2: Parcel Post(Rates) (Amendment) Regulations,
1968 (second publication)
S.I. 1969 No. 3: Civil Establishment (General) (Amendment)
(No. 7) Order, 1968
Act 1968-52: Caribbean Meteorological Council (Incorpora-
tion) Act, 1968
Act 1968-53: Evidence (Amendment) Act, 1968
Act 1968-54: Sugar Workers (Provident Fund) Act, 1968






3 2187$9


NOTICE NO. 6
GOVERNMENT NOTICES
Acting Appointments
G. A. A. Maynard, Deputy Crown Solici-
tor, has been appointed to act as Registrar,
with effect from 18th December, 1968 to 31st
January, 1969.
W. A. Davis, Magistrate, has been ap-
pointed to act as Deputy Crown Solicitor, with
effect from 18th December, 1968 to 31st
January, 1969.

(M.P. 3064/6/T/1)
Miss Y. Bannister, Magistrate, has been
appointed to act as Parliamentary Counsel,
with effect-from 30th Novernber,*4B til
furger notice.

(MP. 3N5 4/13)

Correction

Tt!'e' Shops Act 1968 (1968-50) published
in the Supplement to the Official Gazette
dated 30th December, 1968 did not come into
operation on 30th December, 1968 as is in-
dicateo- on the'first page of the said Act but
will come into operation on such day as the
Governor-General may appoint by Proclama-
tion in accordance with section 30 of the Act.







'i** .' '"







I I G Jn -.9


GOVERNMENT NOTICES Cont'd.

Appointment

Miss Angela Tello, has been appointed to
the post of Statistical Assistant, Department
of Statistical Service, with effect from 1st
November, 1968.

(M.P. 8812/4)

Acting Appointments
H. S. L. Moseley, Magistrate, has been
appointed to act as Parliamentary Counsel,
with effect from 2nd January, 1969 until fur-
ther notice.

(M.P. 3654/13)
F. L. Harding, Clerical Officer, has been
appointed to act as Administrative Assistant,
Ministry of Finance, with effect from 17th
November, 1968.
(M.P. 1515/39/7/6)
Vacant Post In the Public Service

Chief Marine Engineer, Port Department,
Barbados.

Salary: $5,580 $9,000 per annum

Further particulars may be obtained from
Service Commissions Department,
"Flodden", Culloden Road, St. Michael.


Closing date for applications: 1st February,
1969.


(M.P. 4373/31/1)


Resignation

Hugh D. Graham, Clerical Officer, Gen-
eral Post Office, has resigned from the Pub-
lic Service with effect from 16th December,
1968.

(M.P. P. 8880).

NOTICE NO. 7
THE INDUSTRIAL INCENTIVES ACT, 1963
(Section 6)
NOTICE
The Honourable Prime Minister and Min-
ister of Finance pursuant to section 6 of the
Industrial Incentives Act, 1963, hereby gives
notice that he is about to be asked to consider
whether for the purposes of the abovemen-
tioned Act, a company to be registered as
Barbados Sports Industries Limited should be
declared as an approved enterprise in respect
of Cricket bats and hockey sticks at a factory
to be situated at Crane, St. Philip.

Any person interested in the manufacture
or importation of the products in question who
objects to the proposed Company being de-
clared an approved enterprise for the pur-
pose of the Industrial Incentives Act, 1963,
should forward to the Director (Ag.) Econo-
mic Planning Unit, Office of the Prime Minis-
ter and a copy to Manager, Barbados
Development Board to reach him not later
than Monday, January 20, 1969 a statement in
writing setting forth the grounds of his ob-
jection.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


January 9, 1969








Januay 9,969 FFICAL GZETT


NOTICE NO. 8

IN FHE SUPREME COURT OF ,JUIDICATIllE

High Court


No. 619 of 1968

EDMUND ALEXANDER BAYLEY: Plaintiff

ARTHUR DRAYTON HERBERT: Defendant

Any person having any claim, lien or charge
against the property described hereunder shall
submit such claim duly authenticated on oath to
me on or before the 6th day of March 1969.

PROPERTY: ALL THAT certain piece orpar-
cel of land situate at Welches in the parish of
Christ Church and Island aforesaid containing by
admeasurement one rood twenty perches or there-
abouts abutting and bounding on lands formerly of
E. F. Skeene but now of the estate of Dr. T. A.
Herbert deceased on lands formerly of Erskine
E. Sealy but now of the estate of Dr. T. A. Herbert
deceased on other lands of the estate of Dr. T. A.
Herbert deceased being a private road and on lands
now or late of Martha Oughterson or however else
the same may abut and bound.

VALUE OF PROPERTY: $15,000.00

Dated this 16th day of December 1968.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of the Supreme Court.



NOTICE NO. 9

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF JIDICATICLE

High Court


No. 617 of 1968


ORVILLE ARTHUR POWER:

AMBROSE CHELTENHAM:


Plaintiff

Defendant


Any person having any claim, lien or charge
against the property described hereunder shall
submit such claim duly authenticated on oath to
me on or before the 6th day of March 1969.

PROPERTY: ALL THAT certain piece or
parcel of land situate at Baywoods in the parish
of Saint James in this Island containing by ad-
measurement twenty nine thousand five hundred and


ninety six square feet or thereabouts abutting and
bounding on lands of one Moore on lands of Water
Hall Plantation on lands of one Thorne and on two
roads forming a right of way or however else
the same may abut and bound.

VALUE OF PROPERTY: $1,000.00

Dated this 16th day of December 1968.

C.-A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of the Supreme Court.


NOTICE NO. 10

IN TIlE SI PIHME COURT 3,I JUI0CiATU;iIE

Highly Court


No. 622 of 1968


LORTON EGBERT EDWARDS:

PHYLLIS ADELINE SMITH et al:


Plaintiff

Defendants


Any person having any claim, lien or charge
against the property described hereunder shall
submit such claim duly authenticated on oath to
me on or before the 6th day of March 1969.

PROPERTY: ALL THAT certain piece or
parcel of land (formerly part of a larger area
of land containing by admeasurement two rood
or thereabouts) situate at Cliff Cottage in the par-
ish of Saint John and Island aforesaid containing
by admeasurement twenty perches or thereabouts
abutting and bounding on lands of the estate of
J. Cox deceased on lands of Lilian Adina Moore
(on two sides ) and on a road in common or
however else the same may abut and bound and
also ALL THAT certain piece or parcel ofland
(formerly part of a larger area of land contain-
ing by admeasurement two roods or thereabouts)
situate at Cliff Cottage in the parish of Saint .
John and island aforesaid containing by admeasure -
ment one rood twenty perches or thereabouts
abutting and bounding on lands of A. Holder and
of a place called Quintynes on lands of tle s-
tate of J. Cox deceased and Phyllis Adeline Smi h
aad on a road in common or however else the same'
.may abut and bound.

VALUE OF PROPERTIES: $650.00; $1,800.00

Dated this 16th day of December 1968.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of the Supreme Court


January 9, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE








OFICA GAET Jaur 916


NOTICE NO. 11

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE
High Court


No. 623 of 1968


ST. ALBAN O'BRIAN SKINNER:


Plaintiff


OLIVER CHESTERFIELD ST.JOHN: Defendant

Any person having any claim, lien or charge
against the property described hereunder shall
submit such claim duly authenticated on oath to
me on or before the 6th day of March 1969.

PROPERTY: ALL THAT certain piece or
parcel of land situate at Half Moon Fort in the
parish of Saint Lucy and Island aforesaid con-
taining by admeasurement 2 roods 3 perches
or thereabouts abutting and bounding on lands now
or late of Charles Cadogan and Robert Cadogan,
on lands now or late of Edward DePeiza, on lands
now or late of Effie Hinds & Al, on lands now or
late of Herman Skinner and on the public road or
however else the same may abut and bound.

VALUE OF PROPERTY: $1,000.00

Dated this 16th day of December 1968.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of the Supreme Court.



NOTICE NO. 12


IN THE SUPRHEE COURT OF JUDICA'I URE

High Court


No. 600 of 1968


ORVILLE ARTHUR POWER:


DAPHNE GILKES:


Plaintiff

Defendant


Any person having any claim, lien or charge
against the property described hereunder shall
submit such claim duly authenticated on oath to
me on or before the 6th day of March 1969.

PROPERTY: ALL THAT certain piece or
parcel of land situate at Shermans in the parish
of Saint Peter in this Island containing by ad-


measurement forty six thousand four hundred and
ninety eight square feet or thereabouts, Abutting
and bounding on lands of Edna Forde on lands of
K. Briggs on lands of one Babb on two sides on
lands of one Forde and on a road eight feet wide
or however else the same may abut and bound.

VALUE OF PROPERTY: $3,300.00

Dated this 16th day of December 1968.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of the Supreme Court.



NOTICE NO. 13


IN THE SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE

High Court


No. 609 of 1968


ST. ALBAN O'BRIAN SKINNER:

EDMUND DePEIZA:


Plaintiff

Defendant


Any person having any claim, lien or charge
against the property described hereunder shall
submit such claim duly authenticated on oath to me
on or before the 6th day of March 1969.

PROPERTY: ALL THAT certain piece or
parcel of land situate at Fustic in the parish of
Saint Lucy and Island aforesaid containing by ad-
measurement 1 acre 19.823 perches or thereabouts
abutting and bounding on lands of one Swans, on.
lands of H. St. John, on lands of R. Cadogan and
on lands of Vagn Riis -Hansen or however else the
same may abut and bound. ALL THAT certain
piece or parcel of land situate at Fustic in the
parish of Saint Lucy and Island aforesaid contain-
ing by admeasurement 3 roods 11.78 perches or
thereabouts abutting and bounding on lands of one
Swane, on lands of R. Cadogan, on lands of one
St. John and on a private road leading to the pub-
lic road or however else the same may abut and
bound.

VALUE OF PROPERTIES: $1,000.00 ; $750.00

Dated this 16th day of December 1968.

C.A.ROCHEFORD
Registrar of the Supreme Court.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


January 9, 1969








.lnur 9, 199OFCA AET


NOTICE NO. 14
IN THE SUPHLME COURT OF JI'UICATURE

High Court
No. 615 of 1968


LORTON EGBERT EDWARDS:
IVAN CLYDE SOBERS:


Plaintiff
Defendant


Any person having any claim, lien or charge
against the property described hereunder shall
submit such claim duly authenticated on oath to me
on or before the 6th day of March 1969.

PROPERTY: ALL THAT Certain piece or
parcel of land situate at Halfmoon Fort in the
parish of Saint Lucy and Island aforesaid formerly
believed to contain by estimation one rood or
thereabouts but found by recent survey to contain
by admeasurement thirteen thousand five hundred
and twelve square feet or thereabouts (inclusive
of one thousand six hundred and eighty nine square
feet in the area of the public road which intersects
the said parcel of land) abutting and bounding on
Lands of St. Clair Harper on the sea on lands of
Joseph N. Yearwood on the Public Road on lands
of S. St. John on lands of one St. John on otherlands
of St. Clair Harper and on the Public Road or
however else the same may abut and bound.

VALUE OF PROPERTY: $5,911.50

Dated this 16th day of December 1958.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of the Supreme Court.



NOTICE NO, 15

IN TI;E SUPREME COUIT OF JIUDICATI:;L

High Court


No. 621 of 1968


ASQUITH PHILIP ALPHEGE JULES:

EMMERSON CLIVE BRATHWAITE:


Plaintiff

Defendant


Any person having any claim, lien or charge
against the property described hereunder shall
submit such claim duly authenticated on oath to
me on or before the 6th day of March 1969.

PROPERTY: ALL THAT certain piece or
parcel of land situate at Foul Bay in the parish
of Saint Philip and Island aforesaid containing
by admeasurement ten thousand six hundred and
twenty seven square feet or thereabouts abutting


and bounding on lands now or late of Estelle
Fields on lands now or late of Carol Fields on
lands lands now or late of Eric Moseley on lands
formerly of Joan Williams but now of Doctor
Louis Ward or however else the same may abut
and bound.

VALUE OF PROPERTY: $1,100.00

Dated this 16th day of December 1968.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of the Supreme Court.


NOTICE NO. 16

IN THE SIPHIFM1 COIIHT OF JIDICATIII'E


High Court

No. 605 of 1968

GEORGE DENIS CLARKE: Plaintiff

CLIVISTON JONES: Defendant

Any person having any claim, lien or charge
against the property described hereunder shall
submit such claim duly authenticated on oath to me
on or before the 6th day of March 1969.

PROPERTY: ALL THAT certain piece orpar-
cel of land marked "A14" on a plan of two acres
1 rood 34 3/10 perches of land certified on the
thirteenthday of July, one thousand and nine hun-
dred and thirty-six by F. L. Gibbons, Sworn Sur-
veyor as amended on the twenty-eight day of March,
one thousand nine hundred and fifty-sevenbyJ. R.
Peterkin, Sworn surveyor situate at Maxwell in The
parish of Christ Church in th's Island containing
by admeasurement five thousand five hundred and
fifty -four square feet or thereabouts (in which area
is included a strip of land six feet wide over which
the owners of the remaining lots on the said plan
have rights of way) butting and bounding on other
lands of the said Cliviston Jones being the lot
marked "A15" on the said plan on lands now or
late of C.H. T. Grannum on the lot marked "A 13"
on the said plan and on the public road leading to
Cane Vale andto Top Rockorhowever else the same
may butt and bound together with the message or
dwellinghouse and all and singular other the build-
ings and erections on the said land erected and
built standing and being with the appurtenances.

VALUE OF PROPERTY: $12,000.00

Dated this 16th day of December 1968.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of the Supreme Court.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


January 9, 1969







OFFICIAL GAZETTE january 9. 1969


NOTICE NO. 17

TAKE NOTICE








That C.A.V. LIMITED (a Limited Liability
Company incorporated in the United Kingdom),
of Warple Way, Acton, London, England; Manu-
facturers, has applied for the registration of a
trade mark in Part "A of Register in respect
of Filters for diesel fuel; fuel injection nozzles
for internal conbustion engines; hydraulic, mechan-
ical and pneumatic governors associated with fuel
injection pumps; fuel injection pumps themselves;
feed pumps; sedimenters and agglomerators for
incorporation in fuel systems for internal combus -
tion engines; turbo chargers, starters for internal
combustion engines; electric motors, dynamos and
alternators; electrical devices for facilitating the
starting of internal combustion engines and parts
of all the aforesaid goods; Switches, switch and
instrument boards and panels; solenoids; solenoid
operable switches; solenoid valves for use in
pneumatic circuits; voltage control regulators of
all types for dynamo electric machines; overload
protection units; D.C. A. C. converters; electric-
ally operated door gear; andparts of allthe afore-
said goods; Automatic gear change equipment for
vehicles; direction indicator apparatus; windscreen
wipers; and parts of all the aforesaid goods, and
will be entitled to register the same after one
month from the 9th day of January 1969 unless some
person shall in the meantime give notice in duplicate
to me at my office of opposition of such registration.
The trade mark can be seen on application at my
office.

Dated this 18th day of December 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks (Ag).


NOTICE NO. 18

TAKE NOTICE

RELIMPIO

That American Cyanamid Company a corpora-
tion organized and existing under the laws of the
State of Maine whose trade or business address is
Berdan Avenue, Wayne, New Jersey, United States
of America, has applied for the registration of a
trade mark in Part "A" of Register in respect of
Household cleaning products including hard surface


cleaners, scourers,waxes, polishers, room refres-
hner deodorants, detergents, soaps, starches and
bleaches and will be entitled to register the same
after one month from the 9th day of January 1969
unless some person shall in the meantime give no-
tice in duplicate to me at my office of opposition of
such registration. The trade mark can be seen on
application at my office.

Dated this 18th day of December, 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks (Ag.)

NOTICE NO. 19

TAKE NOTICE





LOOeeRid r


That The H.D. Lee Company,incorporated; a
corporation duly orgafised under the laws of the
State of Kansas, United States of America, whose
trade or business address is Johnson Drive at
State Line, Shawnee Mission, State of Kansas,
United States of America, trading as Manufacturers,
has applied for the registration of a trade mark in
Part "A" of Register in respect of articles of
clothing, and will be entitled to register the same
after one month from the 9th day of January 1969
unless some person shall in the meantime give
notice in duplicate to me at my office of opposition
of such registration. The trade mark can be seen
on application at my office.

Dated this 18th day of December 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks (Ag.)


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


January 9, 1969








January 9. 1969 OFFICIAL GAZETTE


NOTICE NO. 22
TAKE NOTICE


TAKE NOTICE









That Nippon Gakki Seizo Kabushiki Kaisha, a
Corporation organised under the laws of Japan
whose trade or business address is 10-1,
Nakazawa-cho, Hamamatsu-shi, Shizuka-Ken, Japan,
trading as Manufacturers and Merchants, has ap-
plied for the registration of a trade mark in Part
"A" of Register in respect of Electronic musical
instruments and apparatus and other musical in-
struments and apparatus, and will be entitled to
register the same after one month from the 9th day
of January 1969 unless some person shall in the
meantime give notice in duplicate to me at my of-
fice of opposition of such registration. The trade
mark can be seen on application at my office.

Dated this 18th day of December 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)




NOTICE NO. 21


TAKE NOTICE


ASOMBRA


That American Cyanamid Company a corpora -
tion organized and existing under the laws of the
State of Maine whose trade or business address is
Berdan Avenue, Wayne, New Jersey, United States
of America has applied for the registration of a
trade mark in Part "A" of Register in respect of
Household cleaning products including hard sur-
face cleaners, scourers, waxes, polishers, room
refreshener/deodorants; detergents; soaps; star-
ches; bleaches and will be entitled to register the
same after one month from the 9th day of January
1969 unless some person shall in the meantime:
give notice in duplicate to me at my office of op-
position of such registration. The trade mark can
be seen on application at my office.

Dated this 18th day of December, 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


ZEBRA

That Deutsche Grammophon Gesellschaft
mbH., a Company incorporated inder the laws of
the German Federal Republic whose trade or busi-
ness address is Harvestehunder Weg 1-4, Hamburg
13, Germany, has applied for the registration of a
trade mark in Part "A" of Register in respect of
apparatuses, instruments and machines for regis-
tration, tape recording, reproduction and teletrans -
mission or duplication of sounds and tones,
specially phonographs, radio-sets, loudspeakers,
microphones; parts of said instruments, machines
and apparatuses, specially mechanisms of impul-
sion, speed regulators, automatic record-players,
electrical and mechanical pick-ups, means for the
registration of sound, preferably phonographic
sounds, magnetophonic tapes and photosound bands,
taped and not taped, and will be entitled to register
the same after one month from the 9th day of
January 1969 unless some person shall in the
meantime give notice in duplicate to me at my of-
fice of opposition of such registration. The trade
mark can be seen on application at my office.

Dated this 18th day of December 1968

G.A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


NOTICE NO. 23


1"Ki(;i \ i)lSI. vi\IiK S \;1 1919

TAKE NOTICE


That CAVENHAM FOODS LIMITED, a British
SCompany, of Cavenham House, Colnbrook, Slough,
Buckinghamshire, England, Manufacturers andMer-
chants have applied for the registration of an As-
signment of the Trade Mark No. 886 "PALM" in
respect of Toffees, Chocolates registered in Part
"A" of the Register of Trade Marks on the 9th
April, 1952, in the name of WALTERS "PALM"
TOFFEE LIMITED of Palm Works, Westfield
Road Acton, London, England and will be entitled
to be entered in the Register of Trade Marks as
subsequent Proprietors of the said Trade Mark
after one month from the 9th day of January 1969,
unless some person shall in the meantime give no-
tice of opposition of such registration.

The Trade Mark and Assignment can be seen
on application at my office.

Dated this 8th day of December, 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


NOTICE NO. 20


January 9, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE







OFIIl GAETTE Jaury9 16


NOTICE NO. 24
TAKE NOTICE


L



CLARK'S)S

SABOR



That Philip Morris Incorporated, a corpora-
tion organized and existing under the laws of the
State of Virginia, United States of America, whose
trade or business address is 100 Park Avenue,
New York 17, New York, United States of America,
has applied for the registration of a trade mark in
Part "A" of Register in respect of chewing gum
and confectionery products, and will be entitled to
register the same after one month from the 9th day
of January 1969 unless some person shall in the
meantime give notice in duplicate to me at my of-
fice of opposition of such registration. The trade
mark can be seen on application at my office.


Dated this 18th day of December 1968

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


NOTICE E NO. 25

TAKE NOTICE


That Reemtsma Cigarettenfabriken G.m.b.H.,
a Company incorporated in the Federal Republic
of Germany, whose trade or business address is


Parkstrasse 51, Hamburg, Grossflottbek, Germany,
has applied for the registration of a trade mark in
Part "A" of Register in respect of tobaccos,
cigars and cigarettes, snuffs and articles for
smokers, and will be entitled to register the same
after one month from the 9th day of January 1969
unless some person shall in the meantime give no-
tice in duplicate to me at my officeof opposition of
such registration. The trade mark can be seen on
application at my office. This mark is limited to
the colours shown in the representation.

Dated this 18th day of December 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks (Ag.)


NOTICE NO. 26




TAKE NOTICE






S


That BRITISH PAINTS LIMITED, Manufac-
turers, A British Company of Britannic Works,
Portland Road, Newcastle-on-Tyne, England, has
applied for the registration of a trade mark in
Part "A" of Register in respect of Paints, var-
nishes (other than insulating varnishes)., enamels
(in the nature of paints), painters' Colours; dis-
tempers, japans, lacquers, paints and varnish
driers, wood preservatives, wood stains, anti-
corrosive and anti-fouling compositions and anti-
corrosive oils, and will be entitled to register the
same after one month from the 9th day of January
1969 unless some person shall in the meantime
give notice in duplicate to me at my office of op-
position of such registration. The trade mark can
be seen on application at my office. "The applicants
disclaim any exclusive right to the use of the let-
ter "B" appearing as part of the above mark
apart from the mark as a whole."

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks (Ag.)


OFFICIAl. GAZETTE


January 9. 1969








n1A


NOTICE NO. 27

TAKE NOTICE


THAT The American Tobacco Company, a
corporation organized and existing under the laws
of the State of New Jersey, United States of Amer-
ica, Manufacturers and Merchants whose trade
or business address is 245 Park Avenue, City of
New York, State of New York 10017, United States
of America, has applied for the registration of a
trade mark in Part "A" of Register in respect of
Foodproducts of all kinds, alcoholic and non-alco-
holic beverages of all kinds, and tobacco products
of all kinds and will be entitled to register the
same after one month from the 9th day of January
1969 unless some person shall in the meantime
give notice in duplicate to me at my office -oppo-
sition of such registration. The trade mark can
be seen on application at my office.

Dated this 18ch day of December 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


NOTICE NO. 28

TAKE NOTICE


That Alfred Dunhill, Limited, a company incor-
porated under the laws of England, whose trade or
business address is 30 Duke Street, St. James's,


I


London, S.W.1, England, trading as Manufacturers
and Merchants, has applied for the registration of
a trade mark in Part "A" of Register in respect of
Tobacco cigarettes and cigars, and will be entitled
to register the same after one month from the 9th
day of January 1969 unless some person shall in the
meantime give notice in duplicate to me at my office
of opposition of such registration. The trade mark
can be seen on application at my office. The mark
is limited to the colours red, white, goldand black.

Dated this 18th day of December, 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


NOTICE NO. 29
MIERC11 \NI)ISE MARKS ACT, 1949
TAKE NOTICE








THAT Trinidad Textile Manufacturing Com-
pany Limited a company incorporated with limited
liability in the Island of Trinidad and having its
registered office situate at Brooklyn Estate in the
Town of Arima in the Island of Trinidad being
the Registered Proprietors of the Trade MarkNo.
3433 MUSTANG & DEVICE registered in Part
"A" of the Register of Trade Marks on the 23rd
February, 1967 have applied to add to or alter as
the case may be the said Trade Mark in certain
particulars, to wit:
(a) That the word MUSTANG be written as
shown on the above representation of
the mark;
and will be entitled to do so after one month from
the 9th day of January 1969, unless some person
shall in the meantime give notice of opposition to
such addition or alteration.

The Trade Mark as it presently appears and
as it shall appear when added to or altered can
both be seen on application at my office.

GIVEN UNDER MY HAND this 18th day of
December 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


January 9, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE







/.OFFICIAL GAZETTEJn


NOTICE NO. 30

TAKE NOTICE

ECONO- CAR

That Americar, Inc., a Corporation organized
and existing under the laws of the State of Florida,
United States of America, whose trade or business
address is Diplomatic Center, 100 Sea Breeze
Boulevard, Daytona Beach, Florida, United States of
America, has applied for the registration of a trade
mark in Part "A" of Register in respect of vehi-
cles for travelling by air and parts thereof and
accessories thereto; printed materials including
printed reservation forms, statements, publicity I
material, tickets, agreements, bank, drafts, debit
notes, receipts, directories, schedules, menu cards
purchase credit cards, guide books, circulars, road
maps, invoices and stationery in general, and will
be entitled to register the same after one month
from the 9th day of January 1969 unless some per-
son shall in the meantime give notice in duplicate
to me at my office of opposition of such registra-
tion. The trade mark can be seen on application at
my office.

Dated this 18th day of December, 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


NOTICE: NO. 31

TAKE NOTICE


FEMME


That Ralph Mahfood, a Jamaican National,
whose trade or business address is 11 Carmel
Avenue, Kingston 8, Jamaica, West Indies, has
applied for the registration of a trade mark in
Part "A" of Register in respect of Pharmaceutical,
veterinary and sanitary substances; infants' and
invalids' foods; plasters, material for bandag-


ing; material for stopping teeth, dental wax,
disinfectants; preparations for killing weeds and
destroying vermin; and will beentitledto register
the same after one month from the 9th day of
January 1969 unless some person shall in the mean-
time give notice in duplicate to me at my office of
opposition of such registration. The trade mark
can be seen on application at my office.

Dated this 18th day of December 1968

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


NOTICE NO. 32

TAKE NOTICE






GOLD


That EDWARDS HARLENE LIMITED, Manu-
facturing Chemists, a British Company, whose
trade or business address is 58, Gough Street,
London, W.C., England, has applied for the regis-
tration of a trade mark in Part "A" of Register in
respect of Breath purifiers and body deodorants,
and will be entitled to register the same after one
month from the 9th day of January 1969 unless
some person shall in the meantime give notice in
duplicate to me at my office of opposition of such
registration. The trade mark can be seen on appli-
cation at my office.

Dated this 18th day of December 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks (Ag.)


January 9. 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE








January 9.1969 OFFICIAL GAZETTE


NOTICE NO. 33

TAKE NOTICE

BELVEDERE

That Philip Morris Incorporated a corporation
of the Commonwealth of Virginia, United States of
America whose trade or business address is 100
ParkAvenue, New York, New York 10017 has ap-
plied for the registration of a trade mark in Part
"A" of Register in respect of cigarettes, cigars,
and tobacco, raw or manufactured and will be en-
titled to register the same after one month from
the 9th day of January 1969 unless some person
shall in the meantime give notice in duplicate to
me at my office of opposition of such registration.
The trade mark can be seen on application at my
office.

Dated this 18th day of December, 1968.


G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks.


(Ag.)


NOTICE NO. 34

TAKE NOTICE


REMACEN

That Canadian Hoechst Limited, a Canadian
Company whose trade or business address is 4996
Place De La Savane, Montreal 9, Quebec, Canada,
has applied for the registration of a trade mark in
Part "A" of Register in respect of Dyestuffs,
paints, and will be entitled to register the same
after one month from the 9th day of January 1969
unless some person shall in the meantime give no-
tice in duplicate to me at my office of opposition of
such registration. The trade mark can be seen on
application at my office.

Dated this 18th day of December 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


NOTICE NO. 35

TAKE NOTICE

AMPROTECTION

That Merck & Co., Inc., a New Jersey Corpor-
ation, whose trade or business address is 126 E.
Lincoln Avenue, Rahway, New Jersey, United States
of America, has applied for the registration of a
trade mark in Part "A" of Register in respect of
Pharmaceutical, veterinary and sanitary substances
infants' and invalids' foods; plasters, material for
bandaging; material for stopping teeth; dental wax;
disinfectants; preparations for killing weeds and
destroying vermin, and will be entitled to register
the same after one month from the 9th day of Jan-
uary 1969 unless some person shall in the mean-
time give notice in duplicate to me at my office of
opposition of such registration. The trade mark
can be seen on application at my office.

Dated this 18th day of December, 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


NOTICE: NO. 36


TAKE NOTICE

VENTOLIN
That ALLEN & HANBURYS LIMITED, Whole-
sale Chemists and Druggists, A British Company,
whose trade or business address is Three Colts
Lane, Bethnal Green, London, E., England, has
applied for the registration of a trade mark in Part
"A" of Register in respect of Pharmaceutical and
veterinary preparations, and will be entitled to
register the same after one month from the 9th day
of January 1969 unless some person shall in the
meantime give notice in duplicate to me at my of-
fice of opposition of such registration. The trade
mark can be seen on application at my office.
Dated this 18th day of December 1968

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


January 9, 1969








OFFCIA GAET Jauay .16


NOTICE NO. 37
TAKE NOTICE

CASTROL GTX

That Castrol Limited, a British Company, whose
trade or business address is Castrol House,
Marylebone Road, London, N.W.1, England, trading
as Manufacturers, has applied for the registration
of a trade mark in Part "A" of Register in respect
of Industrial Oils and Greases (other than edible
oils and fats and essential oils) and Lubricants and I
Fuels, and will be entitled to register the same
after one month from the 9th day of January 1969
unless some person shall in the meantime give
notice in duplicate to me at my office of opposition
of such registration. The trade mark can be seen
on application at my office. "The applicants dis-
claim any exclusive right to the use of the letters
G T X appearing as part of the above mark apart
from the mark as a whole."
Dated this 18th day of December, 1968.
G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


NOTICE NO. 38


TAKE NOTICE


KETRAX

That Jansen Pharmaceutica N.V., a Company
incorporated under the laws of Belgium, whose
trade or business address is Turnhoutsebaan 30,
Beerse, Belgium, has applied for the registration
of a trade mark in Part "A" of Register in respect
of pharmaceutical preparations namely parasiticides
and will be entitled to register the same after one
month from the 9thdayof January 1969 unless some
person shall in the meantime give notice in duplicate
to me at my office of oppositionof such registration.
The trade mark can be seen on application at my
office.

Dated this 18th day of December, 1968.


G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks, (Ag.)


PROBATE ADVERTISEMENTS

PUBLIC NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that applications have been made
for the following Grants of Probate and Administration namely :-

PROBATE of the Will dated the 1st day of January, 1967 of ELLEN AUGUSTA YARDE also known
as ELLEN YARDE late of Mansion Road, Bank Hall in the parish of Saint Michael in this Island
who died on the 27th day of August, 1968, by ANSLEY YARDE also known as AIMSLEY YARDE
one of the persons named in the Will of the said deceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the 16th day of March, 1959 of GEORGE POWLETT late of Redman's
Gap, Westbury Road in the parish of Saint Michael in this Island whodiedonthe4thdayof
September, 1968, by CLESFIELD JONES, the soleExecutrix named in the Will of the said de-
ceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the 30th day of September, 1963 of ARNOLD BRATHWAITE also known
as ARNOLD MASCOLL late of Duncans in the parish of Saint Philip in this Island who died on the
19th day of April 1968, by IRIS WILLIAMS the sole Executrix named in the Will of the said
deceased.

LETTERS OF ADMINISTRATION to the Estate of GRAHAM CLARADEAN EDWARDS also known as
GRAHAM CLARONE EDWARDS late ofChimborazo in the parish of Saint Joseph in this Island
who died on the 24th day of January, 1968 by BEATRICE NILES aunt of the said deceased.

LETTERS OF ADMINISTRATION to the Estate of ROBERT WILLIAM BOYCE late of Passage
Gardens in the parish of Saint Michael in this Island who died at Lomo Linda University Hospital
in the State of California in the United States of America on the 12th day of February, 1967, by
ALFRED ERNEST PAISLEY BOYCE father of the said deceased.

LETTERS OF ADMINISTRATION to the Estate of JAMES WILLIAM MILLINGTON late of Chepstow
Street in the parish of Saint Michael in this Island who died onthe 20th day of November, 1968
by WINIFRED VIOLA MILLINGTON, widow of the said deceased.

UNLESS CAVEAT is lodged within fourteen days from the date of this Advertisement with the
Registrar of the Supreme Court through whom the abovenamed applications have been made Probate
and Administration will be granted accordingly.
Dated this 3rd day of January, 1969,
G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar (Ag.)


January 9, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE







Jaur .16 FIIA AET


Commonwealth Caribbean Regional Secretariat


VACANCY FOR LIBRARIAN


Applications are invited from suitably qualified persons for appointment
to the post of LIBRARIAN in the Commonwealth Caribbean Regional Secretar-
iat, Georgetown, Guyana.



Applicants must be professionally qualified librarians with experience in
all aspects of library work.



The salary scale attached to the post of LIBRARIAN is $6,240 per annum
rising by annual increments of $240 to $7,200 per annum and the point of entry
in the scale will depend on the qualification and experience of the person se-
lected. A house allowance of $2,400 per annum will be paid.



Secretariat staff will not be required to pay income tax to the Govern-
ment of Guyana. They will, however, be required to make payments monthly
to a Staff Assessment Scheme. This assessment will be computed on the basis
of gross salary, excluding allowances.



Applications (three copies) giving age, qualifications and details of past
experience should be addressed to the Secretary-General, Commonwealth
Caribbean Regional Secretariat, 205, Camp Street, Georgetown, Guyana, to
reach him not later than 31st January, 1969.


January 9, 1969


' I


OFFICIAL GAZETTE







rV v ----- -.v- .. .....


Resolution No. 110/1968 M.P. 3043/2 Vol.III

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY.

resolvedd that the sum of THRFE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS
be granted from the Consolidated Fund and placed at the disposal of the
Government to supplement the Estimates. 1968-69. Part II Capital as
shown in the Supplementary Estimate, 1968-69 No. 45 which forms the
Schedule to this Resolution and that the Senate be invited to concur here-
in. and if concurred in,

Resolved that His Excellency the Governor- General be asked to
assent and take the necessary steps to give effect to this Resolution.

17th December, 1968.

J. E. THEODORE BRANCKER
Speaker.

Concurred in by the Senate the 27th day of December, 1968.

E. S. ROBINSON
President.
I assent,
A. %INSTON SCOTT
Governor-General.
28th December, 1968.

SCHEDULE
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 45

Provision in Provision in Supplementary
Approved Esti Supplementary Esti- Provision
HEAD AND ITEM
mates 1968--69 mates Nos. 1-44 Required
OF
Statutory Other Statutory Other Statutory Other
APPROVED ESTIMATES
Expendi Expendi Expendi Fxpendi Fxpendi- Fxpendi-
ture ture ture ture ture ture


FAf T II CAPITAL

HEAD 102 COMMUNICATIONS
AND Y WORKS.


Item 16 Transport Board


January 9, 1969


OFFICIAL QAZETTE


34,000


226.600


300,000










Resolution No. 111/1968 M.P,. 3002/5/T.1

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

Resolved that the sum of NINETYFIVE THOUSAND NINE HUN-
DRED AND FORTY-NINE DOLLARS be granted from the Consolidated
Fund and placed at the disposal of the Government to supplement the
Estimates. 1968--69, Part I Current as shown in the Supplementary
Estimate, 1968-69 No. 53 which forms the Schedule to this Resolution
and that the Senate be invited to concur herein, and if concurred in,

Resolv-, that His Excellency the Governor General be asked to
assent and take the necessary steps to gile effect to this Resolution.


17th December, 1968.
th December, 1968. J. E. THEODORE BRANCKER

Speaker.

Concurred in by the Senate the 27th day of December, 1968.


E. S. ROBINSON
President.
I assent,
A. WINSTON SCOTT
Governor-General.
28th December, 1968.

SCIEJDULE
Supplementary Estimates 196,-69 No. 53


Provision in Provision in Supplementary
HEAD AND ITEM Approved Estimates Supplementary Esti. Provision
1968--69 I mates Nos. 1 -- 52 Required
OF
Statutory Other Statuory I Other Statutory Other
APR STMATES Expendi Expendi 'Expendi Expendi- Expendi. Expendi-
APPROVED ESTIMATES
ture ture ture ture ture cure

$ $ S

PART I CURRENT
HEAD 34 MINISTRY OF
COMMUNICATIONS AND
WORKS
Item 44 Casual Labour 1 614.693 26,692
Item 82 Special Reserve for
Extraordinary Road damage 0.000 69,257
_____________ ___________ ______________ ______


January 9, ,1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE







January 9, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


Resolution No. 112/1968


M.P. 80 A 3A/T.7


HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY


,Resolved that the, sum of TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED AND
FORTY SEVEN DOLL.ARS be granted from the Consolidated Fund and
placed a- -h- disposal o0 the Government, to supplement the Estimates,
1968-69 Par I Currert as shown ir the Supplementary Estimate.
1968, 69 No 54 wh'ch forms 'be Schedule to th's Resolut;on and that the
Senate be invited to concur herein, and :f concurred in,


Resolved that His Excellency the
as:en' and 'ake 1hc recer-ary steps to

17th December, 1968.


Governor-General be asked to
give effect to this Resolution



J. E. THEODORE BRANCKER
Speaker.


Concurred in by the Senate this 27th day of December, 1968.

E. S. ROBINSON
President.

I assent,
A. WINSTON SCOTT
Governor-General.
28th December, 1968.

SCHEDULE
Supplementary Estimates 1968-69 No. 54


HEAD AND ITEM

OF

APPROVED ESTI\IA\TES


Pr o,' s'on 'n
Apprceed Est mates
968 69


Statu' v y
Ey Y p (


P AIT I ClR1?ENT

HEAD 17 PENSIONS

P' 13 Lc.( a' (.' e(nrr 'p'
ComD r "al o' ,.'


Oh er
iExpend:
I ure


3 750


Provision in
Supplementary
Estimates No 1- 53


Statutory
Expend;.
U r(?


Other
Expend!
ture


Supplementary
Pro- sion
Requ :ed


Statutory
Expend
ture


---------- ..- -.-.---.--.------.------.------_________ ________ L


Other
Expend-
ture


2 547


-- O I I II


---------- --- ------- 1 ---


---


--


~I----~-L-.--d-~ r I I








Inr916OF A GA T


Resolution No. 113/1968 M.P. 6000/1 Vol.IX

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

Resolved that the Order entitled "The Civil Establishment (General)
(Amendment), (No. 7) Order, 1968" made' by the Prime Minister on the 5th
day of December, 1968, -under the provisions of section 3,of theCivil Es-
tablishment Act,, 1949, ibe approved.
Resolved that ,His Excellency the Governor-General beasked to assent
and take, the necessary steps to give effect to this Resolution.


Approved by the House of Assembly the 17th day of'December, 1968.

J. E. THEODORE BRANCKER
Speaker.

Approved by the Senate the 27th day of December, 1968.

E. S. ROBINSON
President.

I assent,
A. WINSTON SCOTT
Governor-General.
28th December, 1968.





Resolution No, 114/1968 M P 1038/25 Vol II

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY


Resolved tnat the House of Assembly under the prov:s:ons of sub
section 1 of section 18 of the Natural Gas Corporation Ac'. 1950 approve
the borrowing by the Natura' Gas Corooration of an amount not exceeding
$250.000 at a rate of interestt not exceeding 8% per annum from a Com
mercial Bank, the sa:d amount and the interest thereon to be repaid by
annua! instalments of '?0,00 commencing August. 1969 and that the
Senate be invited to concur herein. and :f concurred :n.
Resolted tha: liis -xcellency the Governor 3enara' be asked to
assent and take the necessary steps to give effect to thia Uesolution.

17th December, 1968.
J. E. THEODORE BRANCKER
Speaker.

Concurred in by the Senate this 27th day of December, one thousand nine

hundred and sixty-eight.
E. S. ROBINSON
President.


I assent,
A. WINSTON SCOTT
Governor-General.
28th December, 1968.


January 9, 1969


OFFICIAL GAZETTE








OFIILGZTEJnay916


NOTICE NO. 39


TAKE NOTICE

CAV

That C.A.V. LIMITED (a LimitedLiabil-
ity Company incorporated in the United
Kingdom), of Warple Way, Acton, London,
England; Manufacturers, has applied for the
registration of a trade mark in Part "A" of
Register in respect of Filters for diesel fuel;
fuel injection nozzles for internal combustion
engines; hydraulic, mechanical and pneumatic
governors associated with fuel injection
pumps; fuel injection pumps themselves; feed
pumps; sedimenters and agglomerators for
incorporation in fuel systems for internal
combustion engines; turbo charges, starters
for internal combustion engines; electric
motors, dynamos and alternators; electrical
devices for facilitating the starting of internal
combustion engines and parts of all aforesaid


goods; Switches, switch and instrument board
and panels; solenoids; solenoid operable
switches, solenoid valves for use in pneuma-
tic circuits; voltage control regulators of all
types for dynamo electric machines; over-
load protection units; D.C.-A.C. converters;
electrically operated door gear; and parts of
all the aforesaid goods; Automatic gear
change equipment for vehicles; direction in-
dicator apparatus; windscreen wipers, and
parts of all the aforesaid goods, and will be
entitled to register the same after one month
from the 9th day of January 1969 unless some
person shall in the meantime give notice in
duplicate to me at my office of opposition of
such registration. The trade mark can be
seen on application at my office.


Dated this 18th day of December 1968.

G. A. A. MAYNARD
Registrar of Trade Marks.(Ag.)


Government Printing Office.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


January 9, 1969











THE





House of Assembly Debates




(OFFICIAL REPORT)


SECOND SESSION OF 1966 71


HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 27th March, 1968.
Pursuant to the adjournment, the House of As-
sembly met at 10.30 a.m. o' clock today.

PRESENT

His Honour J. E. T. BRANCKER, Q.C., F.Z.S., (Speaker);
Mr. L. E. SMITH, J.P.; Hon. C.E. TALMA, (Minister of Health
and Community Development); Hon. J. C. TUDOR, M.A.,
(Leader of the House); Mr. J. W. CORBIN; Hon. G.G.
FERGUSSON, (Minister of Trade, Tourism, Co-operatives and
Fisheries); Mr. R. ST.C. WEEKES, J.P.; Mr. W. R. LOWE.
Mr. W. C. B. HINDS; His Honour G. E. SARGEANT, (Deputy
Speaker); Mr. H. B. ST. JOHN, L.L.B.


Prayers were read.



MINUTES

Mr. Speaker: I understand there are no Minutes
available for confirmation. Likewise Order Papers
are not yet available, hut, I understand inthe course
of the day they will be circulated.

PAPERS LAID

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I am com-
manded on behalf of the Hon. Prime Minister, Min-
ister of Finance and Minister of External Affairs to
lay "The Barbados (Constitution) (Retirement of
Entitled Officers) (Amendment) Regulations, 1968".

QUESTIONS

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give notice
of the following question:

To enquire of the appropriate Minister:

Will Government consider immediately the
pressing necessity for paying out to old resigned
labourers in the Sugar Industry such benefits from
the Provident Fund that are due to them?


2. If the answer is in the affirmative, will
the Minister state when and how the Fund will be
distributed?

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Standing Orders Nos. 5, 14, 16, 18, 19, 40 and
45 be suspended for the remainder of today's sitting.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I am not objecting,
but the Minister should state his reasons for doing
this this morning. As he has fixed the meeting for
so early an hour, I expect we would finish quite
early. There is some reason for suspending these
Orders, and he should state it.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: If the hon. member would
give way......

Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the House
has asked the hon. member uf he would give way
that he might state his reason. Would the hon.
member give way?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: There is a simple reason.
If we meet at 10 o'clock it is better, I think, to have
the luncheon suspension at 1 o'clock than at 2 o'clock.
This is all.

The question that Standing orders Nos. 5, 14, 16, 18, 19,
40 and 45 be suspended for the remainder of this day's sitting
was put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

MOTION TO USE PREVIOUS DAY'S ORDER PAPER

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, as the Order
Papers are not yet available, I beg to move, until
they are available, that yesterday's Order Paper
be the Order Paper for this Sitting.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. SPEAKER: It has been moved and seconded
that yesterday's Order Paper be deemed to be this
day's'Order Paper until the arrival of today's Order
Paper.







1542


Mr. MOTTLEY: I do not quite follow that, Sir.
What exactly does that mean? The Hon. Leader of the
House moved that yesterday's Order Paperbe today's
.Order Paper. Your Honour has put that yesterday's
Order Paper be today's Order Paperuntil the arrival
of today's Order Paper. That is a different thing from
what he moved.

Mr. SPEAKER: Through some dilatoriness the
Government Printery has not yet supplied us with
today's Order Paper, and we have no Order Paper
to go on; so we must continue......

Mr. MOTTLEY: You cannot say we must con-
tinue. The Hon. Leader of the House has moved, that
yesterday's Order Paper be today's Order Paper, and
Your Honour has put that that be today's Order Paper
until today's Order Paper arrives. I do not under-
stand.

Mr. SPEAKER: What reallywouldhave happened
is that if yesterday we had suspended until today, we
would have proceeded in accordance with that Order
Paper. I rather got the impression and I will be
corrected if I am wrong that the hon. member is
seeking to proceed with the matter which was under
discussion when the Moment of Interruption arrived
yesterday. That is my impression; I may be quite
wrong.

Mr. MOTTLEY: I gather the House was ad-
journed, and if the House was adjourned and not sus-
pended...... (ASIDES) Who could be telling me what I
am asking? Only the Speaker and the Leader of the
House understand what I am asking.

Mr. SPEAKER: This is one occasion I do not
disagree with the hon. senior member for Bridge-
towinl

Mr. MOTTLEY: You saidyoudisagreedwithme,
sir?

Mr. SPEAKER: This is one occasion that I do
not disagree. I am so sorry the hon. member cannot
hear as well as I would like.

Mr. MOTTLEY: This is the thing which will get
me angry, when people over there who do not under-
stand what I am doing are telling me to sit down. They
do not understand if this is a rabbit, a mouse, a red
herring or a rat. (A VOICE: I understand.) Under-
stand what? The Leader of the House understands
what I am doing and I am not trying to put him in any
difficulty. I am trying to regularise the procedure.
(Hon. N. W. BOXILL: You cannot regularise any-
thing in here.) You hear that bloody idiot, Mr.
Speaker? I am not sitting down and I am not allowing
it to go on this way. This cannot be done. (Hon. N. W.
BOXILL: You cannot stop it from being done.) You
are talking like an assl

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: That is your kind of lan-
guage.
Mr. MOTTLEY: You caused me to talk that kind
of language. (Hon. N. W. BOXILL: That would only


come from a hooligan.) Are you calling somebody a
hooligan? (Hon. N. W. BOXILL: Yesl)

Mr. SPEAKER rose.

Mr. SPEAKER: Will the hon. senior member
for Bridgetown resume his seat?


Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Speaker, you do not know
you have been hearing his voice all the time I was
standing up.

SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Mr. SPEAKER: This Sitting now stands sus-
pended for ten minutes for grave disorder.

Mr. MOTTLEY: You can suspend it for two
hours, because all I am trying to do is to regularise
the thing.
10.40 a.m.

On Resumption:

Mr. SPEAKER: In the absence of today's Order
Paper, if the hon. senior member for Bridgetown
would give way a moment, I would ask the Hon.
Leader of the House to clarify the motion which
seems to have been subject to some misunderstand-
ing.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Before he clarifies it, Sir, I
want to make it clear that I am not holding up the
business of the House. I want to regularise and put
right what I consider in my opinion and what you
consider. Sir to be irregular. If he wants to use
yesterday's Order Paper as today's Order Paper,
there must be no condition attached. If at the end
of the business no Order Paper arrives, then what
happens? There must be no condition attached, and
it must be done with the approval of the House, not
Your Honour's.

Mr. SPEAKER: Itwas a motion which would have
been put to the House. The hon. member, unless I
misunderstood him, made a motion.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I would with-
draw that one and substitute the following:

"That yesterday's Order Paperbe today's Order
Paper."

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.


The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division.


Mr. SPEAKER: Is the hon. junior member for
St. Andrew about to address me?

Mr. MOTTLEY: I hope the Hon. Leader of the
House appreciates the stand I took in this matter,
because if one of us objected it could not work.






1543


Mr. SPEAKER: I gather that the hon. member
did not hear the point of order.

Mr. MOTTLEY: I ask your pardon, Sir. I rose
on a point of order, and I want the Leader of the
House to appreciate that there was no objection to it
being done, but I wanted it to be done in the proper
way.

Mr. SPEAKER: I thank the hon. member for
repeating it.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, Ibegtomove
that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and the
House resume Committee of Supply.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the House
went into Committee of Supply, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.


IN COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE 1967-68 No. 67

Mr. CHAIRMAN: When the House was adjourned,
previously the hon. senior member for St. Joseph
was speaking.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, when the House
adjourned, I was trying to make a point by quoting
some figures to show that if we should continue at
this rate we would not be able to make any repay-
ments, or to make an effort to repay anything by
1970, because the Hon. Introducer has not made out a
case to justify this loan. This Corporation was in
operation for the last three or four years, and it has
shown no sign of making a profit in my opinion, but
now we are asked to allow it to go deeper into debt
by making a loan.


I can understand if the Minister had put up a
case telling us that the intention was to expand, and to
give us a breakdown on the expansion so that we
would know what the Corporation is about to do, even
if it did not do it, inorderto justify this loan. He has
not done so. I would take it that we are going along
in the same way throwing away money, and I would
not be fair to the taxpayer or to myself, as a repre-
sentative of the people, to encourage anything of this
sort.

If a case had been made out to show that they
had discovered what caused the losses and they had
remedied that in other words, they had 'fixed-it-
right' and were thinking of making a new start and
intended to do more business inorderto make money
to repay the loan, even if we forgot the losses, it
would have been a different matter. In other words,
you are wiping off the slate and are asking us to help
you wipe it off in order thatyoumay turn over a new
leaf, but the only way it could be done is to give you
some new capital. That would be a case, and I would
not have to say anything more on the matter other
than "Aye".


We are not convinced even by the figures in this
Statement. I cannot go by this Statement. I do not
know how to believe that responsible licensed Au-
ditors, who are responsible to the Inland Revenue
Department, would make a Statement of this kind.
We do not have a breakdown of the figures. You have
borrowed money. I am not now dealing with my
figures but withtheirs. I see here "Loans Guaran-
teed by Government Advances by Bank of Nova
Scotia $365,000.00; Television $785,000.00", mak-
ing a total of $1,150,000. This is money that was
loaned, but where is the interest for it? This loan
will have to be serviced, and the first thing you see
on your Balance Sheet is your interest from the
Bank. Interest is a man, Sir, who does not sleep.
When you are on your sick bed dying, interest is
watching you; while you are taking a spree, interest
is there with you. Regardless of what is happening,
Mr. Interest is there with his eyes wide open, and
the time is coming for you with interest. Where is
it on this sheet?

If I can pinpoint one single fault in this State-
ment, I can afford and I have the right to say it is no
Statement. I cannot believe it. It is not a true and
correct Statement. This Statement was only put to-
gether in order to try and get this loan. It was not
necessary to submit a Statement like this to get a
loan, because the numbers are on the other side of
the House. Even if it were not a Statement at all,
as long as the Government brings it here, it would
pass. I would not say that the members on the other
side are blind; I would not say that they are ignorant,
but everything is right for them. The glasses that
they are looking through are marked "right" :how-
ever they open their eyes it is right and no wrong.
I cannot blame them. If they are seeking all right
and no wrong, then they will be going right. In other
words, they will feel to themselves that they are
going right. I am laying the blame on the entire
Government. If the members on the other side com-
prise the Government, then I have to blame them.
Do you know why? The Government has an expert at
the top. He knows figures backward. If he is flying
in an aeroplane and he sees figures flying about,
he will know them.

Sir, I feel now that this was purposely done. You
can take it for granted, Sir, that I may be the most
backward in here, but with more sense. If I can see
that something is wrong, then you cannot say that
the Prime Minister of this country has not seen it.
11.05 a.m.


You cannot say that. You cannot say that the
Hon. Leader of the House has not seen it. I would
not say that, because they have had the opportunity
to see this Statement in draft form, as the Hon.
Leader of the House informed us yesterday that it
took time to get to the Cabinet and it took time to
leave the Cabinet. That means that the Cabinet is
not prepared to let it go until they make sure that it
is O.K. Therefore, intheir opinion; if s O.K. and they
are thinking, inmy opinion,ithatwe above here do not
know figures. This could never be true and correct,






1544


except the loan was interest free. If the Minister canr
tell me now that this loan is interest free, I will say,
well, all right; but if he cannot tell me that, if he can-
not prove that, this is wrong, and we should not go by
it at all. In my opinion, if the Hon. Introducer of this
Resolution can see it in this light he is no fool
either. He knows figures and he would tellyou that if
he had to do with this, do you know what would happen?
If the present members of the Opposition were in
power with this, and the other members on the lower
side were in the Opposition, I seem to hear the hon.
Introducer painting and the hon. junior member for
Christ Church all of them would be parading in a
matter of this sort. I think that all other members are
new members, but I can swear that the hon. junior
member for Christ Church would take not less than
about ten to twelve hours on this matter, knowing him
as I do; but if one can read things here on the inside
of the hon. junior member for Christ Church, I know
what is written there as far as this is concerned. That
is why I am happy, I am one of the most happy men in
the world, that I am 'n the Opposition, and most hon.
members would tell you that and you will find it out
if the people should find favour with you to return you
here and you should be in the Opposition. It makes
dumb people talk.

Now, Sir, in this case, I cannot vote for anything
like this. I would be dishonest to myself and to the
electorate of St. Joseph, in other words, the elec-
torate of the whole Island, because it is not properly
made out. Som.-thing has been left out and I am pin-
pointing that the interest has been left out. So long as
the interest has been left out, most things have been
left out. There is an old man who lives near me.
When they trouble him, he says: "Hard ears, you
would not hear; hard ears, you are going to feel."
This Government is bound to feel because we have
been warning them every time we get a chance on the
floor of this House, to be careful as to how they are
going about their business. Why do they so much like
to rub up with the importees? And the Prime Minister
has given them very nearly the same power as the
electorate of this country has given to him. Why does
this Government so much like to rub up with strangers
and not their own? I can call them, but I am -ot call-
ing them because I will have a chance very soon from
now to dealwith another Ministry; but strangers can
come in here and do as they like. They can swipe the
taxpayers, pull up their sticks and out they go
and we have to pay forlit. It is not a case of their
being able in 1970 to pay back one cent; we have to
pay for this. As I said yesterday, they may not be
in existence. This particular company, this Thomson
group I do not know if it is a group, a man or what,
but he wants to monopolise everything. I understand
that they wanted to monopolise the Press of this
country and the Press all over the world, and they
have their reasons for these monopolies. Why would
they not put up the money if they know that this was
a paying concern, and they know that there is money
in it? Do not let any person foolyou; no industrialist
who knows that his industry is going to make money,
is going to encourage the Government to put money
in it. The only way in which he would encourage the
Government to put money in this industry is to make


sure that the Government cannot call upon him to pull
up his sticks when he does not want to do that. As
soon as you see them wanting to share in the profits
and not in the losses, something is bound to go wrong.
Every idiot should know that.

We do not know what is being paid out to these
Thomsons. In other words, as far as Ican see, and I
hope the Minister will stop me quickly if I am wrong,
I should be able to see how much money they have got
apart from the Government, and how much interest
is being paid to them for their money, or if money
is being paid to them by way of dividends or anything
of that sort. I think I noticed what the Government
has put up. I will look for it so as to make sure. I
see here that the loans are guaranteed by the Gov-
ernment, but I have not seen if these people have
money in this business. It should be here to let me
know how much money they have in it, and if they
are getting any interest, if any dividends have been
declared to them or if they are going down the hill
with the Government financially. All of that should
be here in this Report and let us see what the true
picture is. I am not saying that we should do away
with it; I would not say that we should do away with
it because I am told that Rediffusion was quite
willing to run this thing, and it has not been denied by
the Hon. Introducer. Rediffusion is here already; all
that the Government would have to do is to stand by
and see that Rediffusion does not take them for a ride.
All that the Government should be interested in is the
entertainment for the people; and if TV is going all
good and well, as well as C.B.C., itwould be for Re-
diffusion to see that everything is carried out well and
good and that they do not commit themselves to un-
necessary burden and weight. This is what they should
do.
11.15 a.m.



Rediffusion is already in the Island and is doing
a good job. In my opinion they are making money. I
am not an engineer, but, Sir, Ifeel that Rediffusion's
overhead expenses should be more than C.B.C.'s.
I do not know. I say that because C.B.C. have put up
their equipment and you are getting it over the air.
You do .not even' know what is bringing it into your
home. When it comes to Rediffusion, you can see the
poles and wires which they have installed all over
the Island and these cost money. Even if the equip-
ment of C.B.C. costs a little more than that of
Rediffusion, in the long run C.B.C. should make
more than Rediffusion because C.B.C. does not have
to go to that expense by way of replacing poles,
wires and things of that sort.



I feel that Rediffusion is making money and
C.B.C. should be making money rather than throwing
it away. Something is definitely wrong; but we cannot
sit here and every time that they throw it away, we
vote more money or allow them to borrow it because
if we are not even giving them the money and we are
giving the green lights for them to get money, the
banks will never lend to the Corporation unless this






1545


-on. Chamber gives the green light. If I back a note
to a bank for my friendandhe fails to pay, I will have
to pay it. I am saying this authoritatively because I
have been burnt and Idare suppose most hon. mem-
bers of this Chamber have been burnt along these
lines the only ones who wouldn't be burnt would be
the ones who could tell a good lie.

If we give them the green light, we should have
to pay it for them if they do not pay it. How are they
going to pay it back? I hate, Mr. Chairman, to repeat
myself, but the Minister has failed to convince me
how they can do so. I know that I am speaking now to
the chairs because the Minister who is responsible
for this Department is not in this House. I am saying
that it is a disgrace and an insult. It is murder being
created on the taxpayers of this country when the Min-
ister concerned is out of this House and we have to vote
money for his Department and he is not present to
answer any one question.

I feel that we shouldnotvote for anything under
this Ministry in protest because we do not really and
truly know who is responsible for it. It is a disgrace
and the people of this country should never forgive the
Prime Minister for doing a thing of this sort. He is
calling on us to vote the money for a Department and
the Minister is not responsible for his vote. He does
not have to say a thing.

I do not know the man called Mr. Sandiford. If he
appears here now, I do not know him nor do I care to
know him either. He can say: "Well, Smith can get
inside there and talk as he likes. Any one of the mem-
bers of the Opposition can talk and say anything, I do
not care anything about them. I do not have to see
whether they are vexed or pleased." But if we can
get him inside this House and crowd him with ques-
tions and drop the lashes on him, we would be able
to bring him to his senses. Do not care how powerful
he may be, he could not be more powerful than the
Prime Minister and we succeeded in getting him to
his senses and we would get Mr. Sandiford to his
senses too.
Mr. Chairman, I know that you are going to stop
me now, but when you stop me I would have come out
with it so quickly that I would be finished. I was told
that they called on him to run for St.Jamesandhe
bluntly refused.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I take it that the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph is speaking about a member
of the other Chamber.

Mr. SMITH: Yes.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Let us remember Rule 26(9).
I would like you to observe it.

Mr. SMITH: You can talk about 26(9). I do not
know anything about members of the other Chamber. I
do not care; I just do not care; 26(9) or 26(10) cannot
make him pay anykind of respect or anything at all.
I just do not care; he is not a member of this Chamber
as far as I am concerned. I am talking about the Min-
ister who should be inside this Chamber.


You rake anything and put up there and put him
over me. You pick anything from the wayside and car-
ry him up there and tell him that he can get up there
and talk whatever he likes. I have to face the tape; I
have to go and beg for votes. He too should have to
face the electors, but he has got a say now to fleece
them.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would interrupt the hon. mem-
ber again. Rule 26 (9) says that the conduct of Her
Majesty, members of the Royal Family, the Gover-
nor General of the West Indies, the Governor, mem-
bers of either Houses of the Legislature, Judges, or
the performance of judicial functions by other per-
sons shall not be referred to except upon a substan-
tive motion.

Therefore, I ask the hon. senior member for St.
Joseph to defer. Let the hon. senior member for St.
Joseph continue.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, on a point of
order. I say that if the hon. member is criticising the
appointment of a Senator as a Minister of Govern-
ment, this might be a legitimate criticism though I
have doubts of its being a pertinent one; the Consti-
tution allows it. However, it seems to me, that in
some of his remarks, the hon. member gave the im-
pression that he personally dislikes the Minister and
I am sure that this is not the case because he says
that he does not know him. It would be, perhaps, as
well if he does not pursue that strain, and in any
case the impression is that he is personally motiva-
ted against the Minister; but, so far as I know, the
Minister has never offended him.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, I have said that I do
not know the gentleman. I hate no one. Every living
human being in this world and in Barbados is my
friend. I dare suppose if I meet up the gentleman to-
morrow that I would speak to him, and if he is a man
who would "fire" one, I would "fire one" with him.
11.25 a.m.
I am criticising the gentleman through no fault
of his, because if he were honest he would not have
accepted the Ministry.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: On a point of order, to say
that because he accepted the Ministry he is dishonest
is a personal, attack on him, and I am sure the hon.
member does not mean this, because the hon. member
is not, as he says, motivated either by personal know-
ledge or personal dislike of the Hon. Senator. You
criticise the fact that there are not enough Ministers
in the House of Assembly although the Constitution
allows this. This is legitimate though not pertinent,
because the Constitution permits it; but when you go
outside and speak as if the hon. member had some
'personal dislike against the hon. Senator, andto make
it appear as if the Hon. Senator was dishonest in ac-
cepting the Ministry I do not think that is what he
intends, and he must see this surely.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, when Isaidthat if he
were honest he would not accepted it, I mean that he






1546


can come in here and sit in the Gallery like anybody.
else, but he cannot sit in one of these chairs; and
knowing that, and knowing that he cannot reply to me
if I am attacking him or asking him a question, in
fairness to the electorate of this country he should
not have accepted it. Imagine you are a Minister of
the Crown and you cannot come into this House and
take a seat! You have to stay outside and listen to all
that is going on. I will say nowthat the Leader of the
House had no right to bring anythinghere for another
Minister. If he were a whole man he would not do it
either, because it is not fair to him. Now start me
up; I am ready.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, the hon.
member has moved to a personal attack on me, and I
have defended him. The hon. member must realise
that I am a member of the Government, a member of
Cabinet and Leader of the House; so you cannot say I
have no right bringing in something which is Govern-
ment policy to which I subscribe.

Mr. SMITH: The hon. member is bringing busi-
ness here for a Minister from the Other Place, and
all I will have to do is to throw the lashes on him. I
was holding off all the time, but he can stand up for
them. That is why we will get nowhere with decisions
and actions of this kind by the present Government.
Do you know, Sir, that this is the worst session I have
ever seen or had the honour to sit in since there was
a House of Assembly? The behaviour, actions and
everything are worse since we have become indepen-
dent. When we were not independent we were gentle-
men and acquitted ourselves like gentlemen, but now
we have become independent we are handling our-
selves like what? Think of the behaviour we have
just had about five minutes ago; think of what is hap-
pening in this particular session since we have be-
come independent and who is responsible for it.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I will appeal to the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph to letus get on with the Reso-
lution.

Mr. SMITH: I am getting on with the Resolution.
This is a money Resolution. Do not think Iam advising
you, but when you are going to rule on me,
you have to be careful because under a Money Reso-
lution the scope is very wide. You may be asking for
trouble to pin a member down on a Money Resolution.
You can pin a member down on a Bill, but not on a
Resolution that is asking this House to give thegreen
light to spend money.
Here we have a Balance Sheet that is not true.
How am I to know that the Minister who is in charge,
not the Leader of the House, did not tell these people
to do as they like., and that he did not care anything
about us? How am I to know it was passed on to him
and he refused to have anything to do with it and
asked that it be carried to the House as it is? How
am I to know if the present Minister knows about this
Balance Sheet either? How am I to know if he sat in
on it and pointed out the things we are pinpointing
now, drew it to the attention of the Government and
they denied them? That is why I say the Hon. Minis-
ter should be in here. I do not know him and I would


hate the gentleman to think I am against him or hate
him or anything, because it is not in me to hate any-
body. If I hated anybody I would not even look at the
Prime Minister because there is nobody who has told
more lies on me than the Prime Minister. There is
nobody who tried to insult me more than the Prime
Minister.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. member should
withdraw those words.

Mr. SMITH: What words?

Mr. CHAIRMAN: That the Hon. Prime Minister
told lies on him.

Mr. SMITH: Do you mean when I can prove it?
Bring the Official Gazette and I will prove it to you.
If I can prove a thing, must I withdraw? I said there
is nobody who has told more lies on me than the
Prime Minister. There is no man who insulted me
deeper than he did, and you want me to withdraw it!

Mr. CHAIRMAN: StandingOrderNo. 26 (7) states
that no member shall impute improper motives to
another member, and at least I am of the opinion
that when the hon. member says that the Hon. Prime
Minister lied on him he has been imputing improper
motives, and I am asking the hon. member to with-
draw it.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, now I will withdraw
it, but anybody who has sense and intelligence will
look at you as you should be looked upon.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I have asked the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph to withdraw the words that
the Hon. Prime Minister has lied on him.

Mr. SMITH: And when I withdraw it now, it
means he did not lie on mel I would be a hypocrite.
You are asking -ne to tell ties on myselt. Well, I
withdraw it.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: This is the third time I am
asking the hon. member to withdraw the remarks.

Mr. SMITH: It could be 100,000 million times.
I am not afraid of you. Go ahead! If you want me to
withdraw it, I withdraw it. I will do any damn thing.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: We must have order in this
Assembly. The hon. senior member for St. Joseph
has just said that this was the worst session with
regard to behaviour, and I would never have expected
him to be indulging in this type of language and be-
haviour.

Mr. SMITH: What caused me to do it?

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would like the hon. member to
get on with the Resolution.
Mr. SMITH: Do you know what caused me to do
it? When I credit a man with sense and find,. him to
be a fool.
11.35 a.m.








1547


I credit a man with sense and find him to be an
idiot. (Asides.)

Mr. Chairman, why do you not call on the hon.
junior member for St. Andrew now to behave? You
would not hear him now; you are afraid of him; birds
of a feather flock together. (Asides.) I was making a
point. Mr. Chairman, you have to sit there and listen
to us. It may be that the medicine we are administer-
ing is a bit bitter, but you will have to take it. The
time will come when I have to come to your rescue,
and I will come to it as a man. When a man tells lies
on you, he is not telling the truth. That man said he
went home to my house, and saw a pig tied to my
dining room table, but he never visited me yet.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am again appealing to the
hon. member to continue with the Resolution before
the House.

Mr. SMITH: I am saying that man said he went
home to my house, and saw a pig tied to my dining
room table. That man never yet went to my home.
You can make me withdraw that now; I did not call
any name, but you know who I mean. That man told
more lies on methan they have jackasses in Egypt.
You can make me withdraw that; I am not calling any
name. Now when we come to a Balance Sheet like this,
we have to ignore it completely. Do you know what
has come to my memory now, Sir? I am thinking of
the time when that man said so when I was defending
you. I now remember that it was in connection with
the members of the Fire Service at Cross Roads
feeding pigs. I was defending you, because you raised
the question.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I do not see any Fire Service
in this motion.

Mr. SMITH: There was none up there either.
(Laughter.) Mr. Chairman, the Hon. Leader of the
House laughed so sweetly he made me laugh, too.
Sir, let me suggest certain things. I am no longer
criticising anything. Let us take our duties very
seriously. I think that you should cause an investi-
gation into this Department, and see what is really
wrong with it before we give out this money. What I
say in here today is not a criticism; it is just hard-
headed commonsense. I am trying to point out to the
Government where something is wrong.

I do not think the Hon. Leader of the House would
be angry with any member on this side if he said
something sensible. I understand if a member was
talking foolishness even the man who was talking
would look foolish. It is a fact that some time ago
when the hon. senior member for St. Lucy and the
Hon. Prime Minister were in the Opposition, they
kept me in that Chair from twelve o'clock one day
until seven o'clock the next morning trying to put
up their point to stop my Government I am not
saying the last Government from spending money
in the wrong direction. They felt that it was wrong,
and they were trying to convince the present Leader
of the Opposition that he was wrong. You are well
aware that these leaders can be very stubborn and


they put up a fight. I was not vexed with them; they
felt that something was wrong, and they wanted to
draw it to the attention of the House and the electorate
of the country that is was wrong.

I now feel that this matter is wrong, but I am
not going to criticise it without offering a solution.
Some people can only criticise and do nothing else,
but I would try to offer a solution. There should be
a thorough investigation into this Department. You
can hear a lot of things at the sea, and that is why I
go there so often. I understand that the workers at
the Corporation do not get much money. I thought the
staff was being overpaid. I thought the Barbadian
staff was getting a good pay. I understand that the
staff is not well paid. I understand that only two or
three people are well paid. Let us have a thorough
investigation into this matter; let us see what can
be done; let us find out what Rediffusion will do for
us, if we have to turn over a new leaf. If Thomson or
Malcolm cannot carry on in such a manner as to
make the business pay and Rediffusion can carry it on
and relieve us of this burden, then we should investi-
gate the matter and see what could be done. Do not
do things to please a certain person or persons.

This is the taxpayers' money that they are spend-
ing. I read some time ago an article written I would
not call him an idiot, but I would prefer to call him a
snob by somebody to the effect that if you were not
a lawyer you should not be paid for your duties in the
House of Assembly. He felt that the honour given to
me and you, Mr. Chairman, should be sufficient, but
if a lawyer was deprived of his seat he should be given
a pension. You must have read it, too. That is how
all of them look at us. We did not go to any College,
and so we are idiots and that is why I am prepared
to stand up to any of them. They are a pack of snobs.

Let us go into it thoroughly and see what can
be done. I heard that this money is not to be used as
working capital, and that every cent has been spent
already. If it is a fact, then the enquiry would bring
that to light. If it is a fact, we will have to pay with
our eyes closed; but do not let us go into the same
trap again. We will still need working capital. If it
is a fact that the money is to pay debts, you will still
want money to carry on. You will need money to pay
the staff and so on. If you are doing a business and
you are doing credit, you do not get in all of the
money at one time. You must have money so that
you can pay your bills and your staff until money
comes in. You canrfot run a business waitingon your
debtors to pay your bills, because that is very uncer-
tain. You must have an overdraft at the bank, or
money put aside so that you will be able to pay
your staff until money comes in.
11.45 a.m.

The Hon. Introducer would not know this either,
because he is only entrusted with those things there,
just as they could have called me and pushed them
into my hands too. He may not know it, but let them
see that there is an investigation, and enquiry set up
with economic experts to go into this matter and see
about it; but you do not want so many experts because






1548


I can see that you are paying out more money for
labour,andexpenses, thanyou are getting in receipts.
That is putting it in a nutshell, but the question is to
find out why this is so. If they are not doing as many
sales, and the broadcasting and the other things are
not doing as much as to stand up to the expenditure,
they will have to do some cutting. They will have to
bring it down to suit the sales, and if by doing that
*you have to go below, well then, you must pull up your
sticks. That is my little enquiry, but the big enquiry
may say something else. They may be able to say:
"Look, you are doing something here which is costing
you ten dollars to do it, but the income from it is only
a penny." I believe that something is wrong. I am iot
accusing anybody of dishonesty, although that could
work sometimes, but there is something wrong.
For all of these years and in every year you are
losing more and more and it is too much; therefore
let us have an enquiry, let them go into the matter and
report back to us and ask us for more money and we
will give it, but quite differently. You will have to tell
me that you have found out that to hold on with
Thomson you can never get through, that Thomson
was carrying away or working wrongly and we have
decided with Rediffusion to run it on our own, and I
believe that we will have a better chance if we were
running it on our own. Just send out one or two peo-
ple to learn something as to how the thing is to be
worked, you get a good, decent engineer and why could
we not run it? But at this rate we are running it.
The Government is running it because you have to run
to the Government for money whenever you want it;
therefore we are running it. However, we do not have
the whole say. I daresay that too much politics might
have crept into it. Business and politics do not agree.
It may be that too much politics found itself in
between, and if too much politics have found itself
between there, this is what will happen. I am not
saying that it happened with the last Minister or that
it would happen with the present Minister; but if
these people are running things along their own lines
and they are doing something which they feel is right,
and the Minister or Permanent Secretary can come
along and wants to tell you what to do, you are asking
for trouble. Do you know what is going to happen?
That individual will say: If they are going to run
it, let them go and run it"; and they are not going to
be any more interested in it. As soon as you allow
too much politics to creep into business, that can be
the trouble. I daresay that what we have said on the
floor of this House could have caused it, but we did
not have to talk so much against C.B.C. before. What
I am saying here now, and what other members may
have to say, is that politics may creep into it and
cause the thing to be wrong. That can happen. There
are some people who may say: "Little foolish
Lloyd Smith can get up there and talk his foolishness,
but he is not going to talk it with me." You will get
something like that even in the ordinary Department,
because in some of them when you go there, the
people look at you as if you have leprosy. I do not
know if you have ever noticed it, but, Sir, that is
nothing to do with this.

You will have to put your house in order and we
are quite willing to come to your assistance. We must


have C.B.C. running; it is there already and I will
say that it has come to stay, and it should stay. I
would not be so ignorant as to say that you should
scrap it. You may want a new management. It wants
something to be done with it; it may want a little
more pep into it. When we come to TV, they will not
be able to do much expansion because, in my opinion,
whoever is ablq to get TV has got it already. That is
how I feel. It is the people who are not able to get
TV who would only be trying to get one here and one
there, but I feel that every one who is able to pur-
chase TV has got it already, so that the licence from
TV cannot be much now. There are some people who
would more get TB before they get TV (Laughter.).
They are too poor to get it. The TV. sellers may
bring down the purchasing power, or whatever you
care to call it, but it may be brought down to reach
certain people's pockets. That is what is happening.
They are telling you that there is no down payment
and right away you start to pay $15 or $20 a month,
Your friend has TV, your friend's children can en-
joy themselves, you would like to enjoy yours and
you will go and pay this $20. For the first three or
four months you will try to pay, but in the fifth or
sixth month you cannot do anything and they will take
it back from you. Except this particular Corporation
is quite willing to help those who have not got any
TV yet and try to get one in every home that would
be a matter of extension. Take, for instance, the pri-
vate radios; I have a little one which works by
electricity, but it is loud as anything. I do not remem-
ber how it got there; I believe that my son brought
it in. However, I do not think that it could cost more
than $15. If they were to get some of these small
ones, if they were to get to work and get some of
these in every home which has electric current let
every such home get one of these small radios and
you would be expanding it.
11.55 a.m.

Let every home that has current get one of these
small radios. You will be increasing the number of
licences and everything of the sort, and let the same
Corporation import them and sell them. You will be
doing something; but just to sit here as you are
sitting and giving us false accounts only trying to
get money out of our hands is dishonest and some-
body should be locked up if itis so. Rather than doing
that, try to expand if you can; but at this rate which
you are spending, you are going to throw this amount
of money away. As I have said just now, I hear that it
is only to pay for debts some of it has beenthrown
away already.
We cannot get here and say that we are not
going to pay it. We have to pay it because we are
responsible for this thing down there; so I would
not get up and say that I am not paying one cent -
just like the B.M.C. That is why I am appealing to the
members of the Government. It is the Government
that is responsible for all of this money going down
the drain.
Another Bill is coming up which may be contro-
versial. I know the Minister who is in charge of that
plays that he is a hot number. He is present today.
He would not be like the other who is somewhere










else now; he would not be in the Senate.He is pres-
ent today to take the blows. But this particular
Minister who is responsible for this matter before
us can do as he likes, and I will have to tell the
people of this country how we are being treated.

Now, the hon. senior member for the City who
has just sat down went to England at the time when
the Constitution of Barbados was discussed and, Mr.
Chairman, I am going to tell you that had I gone
there, do you think that I would have agreed to this
being out in the Constitution? I believe this matter
was put into the Constitution -after they came back
here or when they went out of the room. This was
poked into the Constitution. Do you think that I would
have agreed that a Minister could be appointed, or
should be appointed from the Senate? Do you think
your humble servant would have agreed to that?
I would never have agreed to that. I would have
shouted for all the murder in the world. I would have
shouted so loudly that you would have stayed down
here and heard me.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: On a point of order. I think
the hon. member would recall and the hon. senior
member for Christ Church as well as the hon. senior
member for Bridgetown would remind him that
even before we were independent we had full internal
self-government under the 1964 Constitution. In fact,
in the pre-independence Constitution it made provi-
sion for Ministers to be chosen from this House or
both Houses. That is quite in order.

The hon. member would better remember this
too. I think that the Hon. Mr. Morris was Minister
without Portfolio some years ago. This is common
practice in British Commonwealth Constitutions;
there is nothing extraordinary about it and was
certainly no secret of ours put in after the Con-
ference; it was part of the conference proposals and
there are two hon. members over there who knew
about it and who raised no objection in any way
towards it.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, suppose it was in-
side there before I was born, I am saying that it is
wrong. It is not because it is there that it is right.
I say that I would never have agreed to it if I had seen
it. I would not, because it is a serious thing; but if
I were the Prime Minister, although it is in the
Constitution, I would not do it.
Well, he scraped the bottom of the barrel and
he has nothing more down inside there to bring
inside here; if, Sir, among his colleagues, he cannot
pick out one, why move the Hon. Leader of the
House? If he is going to tell me and I believe that
he is honest enough to tell me "Really, Boy-child,
I could not do any better; if I had anything more I
would not have done it," I would have said to him:
"Well, you could have let the same fellow remain."
That is what I would have done.
I do not doubt that he has scraped the bottom of
the barrel. He should have let the same fellow remain
even if he was bad. A bad boy is better than no boy at


1549


all. That is how I would have taken it; but when it
comes here, we really would be taking advantage of
the present Leader of the House l when it comes to
educational affairs because he does not know all that
is going on in that Ministry. He may have know
all that was going on during his time, but not now.

Well, Sir, I would not go on any further; I think
I have made mention of my solution. Firstly, set up
an enquiry to go into the matter thoroughly before
you go any further. Secondly, if it is possible for you
to be able to make more money by letting go Thom-
son I do not know how many years' contract you
have signed with him by pelting him through the
window, pelt him away at once. Thirdly, if you can
bring in Rediffusion through the door, do so, or if
there is any other company thatwill take over C.B.C.
and run it, let it do so, or if you feel that you can
manage it on your own behalf with your own people,
only having a qualified engineer at the top, do so.

But surely, do not carry on in this way. Do not
come back to us askingus for any more money ex-
cept it is to put it on its feet definitely. Do not come
back before you make an enquiry, and let us know
early the results of the enquiry. If you feel it would
be better to change the personnel of the directorate
of the Board or whatever you call it, or that you
should get rid of them and get fresh ones, do so.
Do not keep any of them just for a keepsake or may
be only because they canaskforavote for the D.L.P.

If you feel that the Chairman is O.K. I do not
know who he is although the Chairman is not to
be blamed in some cases because the other fellows
can gang up against him and out-vote him, well,
keep him. If you think the personnel of the Board
is not what it should be, get rid of them. Do every-
thing to get C.B.C. back on its feet and make it a
paying concern.

Last but not least, it is time to let us have the
uses of it. Do you know that we do not get the uses
of that station at all? It is time that the debates of
this House even if not all, some of it should be
broadcast every Thursday or Friday night and let
the electorate and those people who really anditruly
cannot come in here or who cannot read or are
blind, hear.

You promised it to us in your manifesto of 1961.
Do not come back here for any more money until
you allow the people to hear us in this Chamber, and
not for a particular individual to be able to come
over the air at any and at all times. I have heard the
hon. senior member for Christ Church say that one
Mr. Sandiford said that he did not bring over the
remarks of the B.L.P. He had no right doing that
even if the people of C.B.C. were going to do it.
Do you know that it is only certain functions that the
people of TV will bring over while others you cannot
see? Do you know that if anything were to happen to
your humble servant, they would not bring over any-
thing about me?
12.05 p.m.







1550


Do you know that if your humble servant were
anywhere they would not focus the camera on me?
They must feel I am too ugly and would break the lens.
Take, for instance, the debate on the last budget. Only
the Prime Minister's speech andthe speech of the
hon. senior member for St. Thomas were broadcast
and nobody else's. Who are the two of them? Do you
mean I am i'ot a representative too? This is the peo -
ple's business and the people's money, and still you
can get some people saying "no" all the time, and
when they are in trouble they come to us to say "yes".
It is not fair. I am looking forward to hear about or
see an enquiry into this Corporation, because some-
thing is wrong that needs fixing right. Do not come
back to us for any more money until you have put
your house in order.


Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, when the sus-
pension was taken for dinner last night, Iwas speak-
ing on this Resolution. I said then that I considered
that even the most ardent, devout Conservative would
have to acknowledge the fact that there were certain
essential services that would have to be run by the
State, and I mentioned those such as water, Post Office
and transport. None of us would agree that it is es-
sential to have run or backed up by the State with the
money of the taxpayers a service such as radio and
television, much as television is used by quite a num -
ber of people. If we could not get private enterprise
to run it, then I would heartily agree. What I am say-
ing now I said on the occasion when this came up. On
one occasion, Sir you were not here then I ham-
mered out the argument for Pan American Airways
to be allowed to land in this country, and Iwas brand-
ed on all sides as holding a brief for Pan American
Airways, and my political opponents even went on to
say I was paid. That never deterred me from putting
over my point of view, and I was backed up by some
members of the present Government because I felt
I was right, and I have lived to see Pan American Air-
ways operating here and bringing in a tremendous lot
to this country.

As far as C.B.C. is concerned, it is my con-
sidered opinion and the opinion of all thinkingpeople
that wherever you can get a company, a firm or an
individual to run a business of this sortwhere you can
collect trade and income tax, it is better to do that
than to unnecessarily tax the nation to run it. It might
be argued by Government members or by those who
are in favour of it that we are not taxing the taxpayers,
but I want to say that this is the same, Mr. Chairman,
as if you came to me and wanted $10,000 borrowed
and I signed a note for you. Icould only sign the note
for you because I was worth something, and if you
did not pay, I would have to repay the loan. What has
happened with C.B.C. in the first case is that we
backed them with money and they have shown a loss.
I t is true it is entertainment for people, but I am sat-
isfied that Rediffusion who operates such a business
in England and in other countries would be in a posi-
tion to run this, and they hadofferedto run it without
asking for one cent. The Government would have
been in a position to say they must have a certain
amount of time and they must have a Director on the
Board or something of the sort.


I do not even go so far as to agree with the hon.
senior member for Christ Church. I say: "Cut this
off once and for all and offer it to Rediffusion to run"
There are sick minds on the other side who would walk
about and say that I have a brief for Rediffusion. All
I know of the business. They will tell you that I have
a brief for Bryden or Leacock, but they do not tell you
that they are the very people who are subscribing to
the national income of this country by their invest-
ments in this country; and it is my opinion that they
could run it. I am not going to vote for this $2 million
for the following reasons. I am no auditor or ac-
coantant, but if you cannot bite and you have a dog that
can bite, you must use him. I think the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph said so. I had this Report put
into the hands of competent and experienced people.
I know it is being said that the hon. senior member
for Christ Church should not have said what he did,
but what he did say was that if what the Leader of the
House said was so, then his opinion is that it is income -
petence by these people.

Now I amgoingtoask a few more questions which
I want taken down word for word. There is not only one
chartered accountant in Barbados. There are several,
and thank God today for the first time we have char-
tered accountants looking like me too. When you get
a certificate as a doctor, it does not matter if you
look like me, the Leader of the House or the Deputy
Clerk. I have always been accused of having to go to
Jack Dear or Dick Leacock to get my information. I
am pleased about that because both; are Cambridge
graduates and both are experienced men and can
advise me on a lot of things I might want to know that
I would go to the Leader of the House to find out be-
cause he had the opportunity of getting an education
which I did not have the opportunity to get; so I have
never taken umbrage when somebody tells me I had
to do that.

Now, Sir, dealing with the two Reports and the
statement of Accounts, I want these questions
answered. What is a Managing Agent? This is some-
thing that must be answered. What is the agreement
whereby Thomson acts as agent and what are the con-
ditions thereof?
12.15 p.m.

I will spare the Hon. Leader of the House the
pains of writing, because I can give him a copy. No
doubt he will have to reply to them, and I can spare
him the pains of writing because there are many ques-
tions.

What percentage of all TVprogramming consists
of foreign film, local film, live broadcast?

How many hours per week for each of the above?
(Asides.)
Did you say that Jack Dear wrote these? I would be
proud. Do you know where Jack Dear went to?



What percentage of Radio programming consists
of canned features, public service programming, mu-
sic, local features, news, religion, children?









You will recall that you sent us a Report and a
Statement and we want to know everything because we
have to find the money.

How many hours of the above?

Has CBC been assigned a clear channel station?
If not, why not, since 10,000 watts is considered high
in accordance with the Federal Comn unications Com-
mission of the USA?

Everybody knows what happens sometimes at
night when we are trying to pick up CBC.

Why are the resources of the country wasted
having two broadcasts for cricket? (Asides.)

I hear a pig grunting, but I do not know where it
is, Sir.

Have any overtures been made by Rediffusion to
have a single broadcast?

Is is more profitable to have an Outside Broad-
cast Unit than a Video tape machine which would allow
program-nes to be repeated at will and cut costs of
original broadcasts? (I have copies of these for the
Advocate; so the man cannot say he didn't hear.) Do
you hear me, Vanderpool? Whether you publish them
or not).

If "Brathwaites of Black Rock" was successful,
why was it abandoned? That was a good programme,
Mr. Minister, and I have to compliment you for it.

What was the value of fixed assets in 1964, and
what caused increases in 1965? This is an important
question, Mr. Chairman.

What is the period for writing off formation and
pre-trading expenses? The Minister will have to
answer all of these questions. This is nothing to rush
through, because $2 million is involved. $2 million is
money in any country in the worked even in the Re-
public of China.

What is the rate of interest for advances from the
Bank of Nova Scotia, and why didn't the auditors put
this information on the Statement?

I am going to digress here a minute. You might be
a Chartered Accountant; you might be an Auditor or any -
thing: but I submit that not one of us in here
is a Chartered Accountant. I feel that things should be
made plain and simple so that the ordinary man can
understand them We represent the people. Some of us
might not consider ourselves among the ordinary,
common people. I consider myself one of them. I can-
not understand, and that is why Ihave asked the ques-
tions.

Mr. Chairman, if you were carrying on a business,
and somebody told you that he had to borrow money
from the bank and had to pay interest on it, would you
accept that unless you were toldwhat rate of interest
.he was paying? Do you not think we are entitled to know


as well as the people who are buying corn meal, sugar,
flour, braces, panties and so on? They are the people
who are paying taxes.

What is the rate of interest for advances from the
Bank of Nova Scotia and why didn't the auditors put
this information on the Statement?

This matter of telling us about the standard com-
mercial rate, or 1/2 % below the prime commercial
rate no one has yet told us, since the Government
amended the interest rate for Banks, what the Gov-
ernment has fixed interest rate at for Banks. There
are four Banks operating in Bridgetown: The Canadian
Bank of Commerce; the Bank of Nova Scotia; the Royal
Bank of Canada, and Barclays Bank. We know that the
Usury Act was amended from 6%, which is the oldest
tax in the country, and we know that you could not
charge more than 6%. We know that that was amended
and we could be charged 8%.

Since that the Government gave us reasons for
amending the rate, but we do not kiow if the Banks are
allowed to charge 10%, 12% or 20%. What we do know is
that the Solicitors cannot charge people borrowing
money around town more than 8%; so when you tell us
that it is 1/2% or 1/4% below the prime interest, rate
we do not know what it is. We must be told what it is.
If you do not feel thatwe shouldbe told, then the Gov-
ernment can go ahead and borrow $2 million. I would
advise the Opposition to walk out withoutvotingon it.
Let the Government borrow the $2 million and do what
they like with it. Let them borrow the $2 million on
Statements which are not worthy to be considered by
honest men. Why did not the Auditors give this in-
formation in the statement?

This question is peculiar, because the Hon. Lead-
er of the House will believe that I have an insight in
this matter.

When are the loans and advances due? Are they
due already or not?

What is the cash flow of the Corporation?
The Hon. Minister will quite understand what I mean.

Does income for 1964 represent total income after
deduction of Agents' Commission?
12.25 p.m.

Let me repeat that becuase it is not in the State-
ment and these have been perused by very able men.
Does income for 1964 represent total income or in-
come after the deduction of Agents' Commission? This
is something which we must be told. After all, you are
asking us to commit the inhabitants of Barbados to a
loan of $2 million, not $2,000, and that is a lot of
money. Is Sales Department wages paidby Agents of
C.B.C? This is something which we are entitled to
know. This is not just saying "Yes" or "No", because
the answers to these questions have got to be taken
down and the public must know. If by C. B. C., why?
What are the individual expenditures on radio pro-
gramming? We are not just dealing with an Auditor's
Statement; we are dealing with something which we






1552


-packed up money for and gave to you. Some people
feel that you should give the Directors whom the Gov-
ernment put on the Boardone Statement, and come in-
to the House of Assembly where there are a bunch of
nincompoops and say: "We do not care anything about
you all; you are just elected there," and give us an-
other Statement; and this, I submit, is what has hap-
pened.

I am not accusing the Minister for knowing this;
they can give the Directors of C. B. C. one Report
and the Ministry another to be brought to the House.
What are we? A bunch of what? Butwe are the repre-
sentatives of the people. What are the detailed expendi-
tures for each department wages, salaries, royalties,
fees etc., for each year? I hope that the Minister will
not tell me that these questions must be answered or
that they must be put down to be asked; these questions
are being asked, arising out of the Report which is in
here now. I am dealing with these questions in the
Report and the Statement now. These are not questions
which I want you to come here and answer next week,
next month or next year, but before we can vote to
lend these people this $2 million, because the Report
before us is not a comprehensive Report; it is not a
Report covering everything. I happened to be in the
Opposition with the Hon. Leader of the House, and the
Prime Minister and we would have talked on this, when
the Barbados Labour Party was in power, for about a
week. Do you think that they could get away with mur-
der with this? Do you think that they could come in
here and ask us to lend them this $2 million like this?
I have always been in the Opposition; I love it. I am
asking this of the Minister through you, Mr. Chairman.
The Minister knows that he should tell him this; he
knows that they should send this to him. Are you tell-
ing me that this is sent to the Board Members and not
to the Minister? All of this the Minister should have
there in a file, and if it is there in the file, it should be
put in the Report and put in the Statement. What are
the individual depreciation expenses for each year? It
is a peculiar thing that the Minister tells us that C.B.C.
would be a money spinner in another few years, and
he tells us what they would get in the first year and in
the second year up to 1970 and then it would start to
make money; but you will notice that the Minister did
not tell us what are the individual depreciation
expenses for each year. All these years you told us
what money they are going to make, but you know that
it will depreciate. It is machinery and Ido not know of
any machinery which does not depreciate. Surely, the
Minister would have that information from the Direc -
tors. Have they sent any Director in heretoday? Be-
cause these Directors are know-all people. Are they
not in here today? What are the interest costs and how
are they appropriated to each department for each
year? That is a simple thing in doing business and,
surely, the Hon. Minister will be able to tell us that.

Now, Mr. Chairman, we come to an important
matter. If I am told that this is not rank, stark dis-
honesty, I do not know anything that is dishonest.
What fee is paid to Thomson for Consultant services?
Do you think that a Report could honestly be brought
before this House, they knowing that Thomson is paid
a fee, whether it is a dollar bill, a thousand dollars,


two thousand dollars or five thousand dollars, and we
have not got the right to know? What are we? The
Prime Minister, the Hon. Leader of the House, the
Minister of Social Services and the present Leader of
the Opposition could not get through this. You come in
here and tell us all of this and you refuse to tell us
-what you are paying Thomson? If you can tell us that
you have lost $400,000 this year and $103,000 that
year, then tell us what Thomson got. That is all I am
asking. Why does this Report omit to have that in it?
Are they afraid to put in that? And are you telling me
that this is an honest, straightforward, upright, true
and correct Statement? I would like to discuss this
matter with a mind like that of the father of the Hon.
Leader of this House. He would tell you straight: "You
have to tell me how much is paid to Thomson." I am
not kicking against how much is paid, but tell us how
much was paid. We are not sayingthat it is too much
or It is too little, but tell us what is paid; give us a
chance to know. After all, we, on this side of the House
were not brought in here on wheel-barrows; we got
elected here too. This is a democratic Assembly. The
Government must rule and they must run the Govern-
ment according to democratic procedures, but at the
same time, you must let the Opposition know: and when
the Opposition knows' then we will be able to explain
to the people. If I went outside now and said that we
were paying Thomson $100,000 a year or $200,000 a
year, would you blame me for that? Do you mean to say
that you would have the trouble of going out and deny-
ing it when a big Report has been brought in here, a
lot of Statement signed by an Auditor, a Chartered
Accountant and you refuse to put that in?
12.35 p.m.

When the Report come in here, with a complete
Statement signed by an Auditor and by a Chartered
Accountant, you refused to put it in. And then they had
the brass and the temerity to walk about saying that
they can put one thing before the Directors and do not
give a damn about the House of Assembly; they can
put what the hell they like before the House of Assem-
bly. This thing is getting out of hand.

All that you have to do is to come in here with a
proper, true, correct and upright Statement. I am not
accusing the Minister for falsification or anything of
the sort; but what they have to do is to give you a pro-
per, true, correct and upright Statement, fearing no-
thing, and we would come in here and perhaps just
only quarrel. Of course, I would still hold the same
view that private enterprise should run it, but we
could not say anything; we could not ask all of these
questions.


What fee is paid to Thomson for Consultant ser-
vices? Is not Thompson the Consultant? You cannot
deny that he is the Consultant. What fee have you paid
to him? I offer this seat now to the Hon. Leader of the
House or to every one of the Ministers to take up that
Statement or Report and show us over here what he is
paid. I go further. I not only would offer them this
seat, but I would offer them cash if any one of them
can honestly tell me what Thomson is paid. If they
can tell me, then they are withholding information






1553


from the House. What is he paid? He is the Consul-
tant and we know he is the Consultant. After all, you
can handpick everybody on a Board; you can even
handpick Ministers.

There are those of us who have been in public
life for a longtime, and this is a small country where
you can mash somebody's foot in St. Lucy and some-
body in St. Philip would cry "Aye". (A VOICE: Do not
touch St. Philip. ) My friend says not to touch St.
Philip. Well, somebody in St. John. There are other
people who would know. You know what is going on
down there is wrongly

Now, Thomson is the Consultant and you are
paying him a lot of money as Consultant. Rather, we
find the money, Thomson finds no money. Have been
all along telling you to let Rediffusion run it. You are
going to say that Mottley has a brief for Leacock and
one for Bryden. Well, Ihave a brief for them. What is
that to do with them? What I am saying is that you
should let private enterprise run it. We do not have to
take up the taxpayers' money to do this sort of thing
when you are losing money $400,000.

A sum of $400,000 would move the houses of so
many people out of Nurse Land that you will think it
is funny. If Thomson is the Consultant, then why
did he allow such a situation to develop at C. B. C?
You have brought in Thomson because Thomson is
this know-all about radio and television and all that
sort of thing. If he is the Consultant, then you can tell
me what is the fee that he is paid, and if he is the
Consultant, why has he allowed this situation to
develop at C. B. C? Youhave a Consultant Engineer
at Haggatts Factory, and I am sure the Minister of
Agriculture has brought in a Report tellingus what is
the condition of Haggatts Factory. There are consul -
tants at Bulkeley Factory and at Searles Factory and
they go into these things. This is a position which I do
not like at C. B. C. If Thomson is the Consultant at
C. B. C., why has he allowed this situation to de-
teriorate to such and extent?

This is a question which must be answered. What
are the fixed costs of operation? This, Sir, is impor-
tant. I believe the Minister would have the answer to
this question there.

Now, Sir, does the Auditor report the whole
Statement of Accounts, since in his Statement, he
only refers to the Balance Sheet? You know, you only
have to pass First Standard to know that one and one
make two, and four and four make eight. I have to do
with business, and we have to make returns to the
Income Tax Commissioner. Does the Auditor report
the whole StatementofAccounts since in his state-
ment he refers only to the Balance Sheet?

This is a very simple thing. He has not made any
reference to it. Maybe, I am too ignorantto under-
stand. It is because I do not understand that I am
asking. It is because James Johnson does notunder-
stand that I am asking. I am asking so that the Gov-
ernment would get this information out for the
benefit of John Citizea.


These are questions which Ihave asked and which
I would like answered and, in my opinion, if they are
answered we would be able to get on much further with
this Resolution. I repeat, the last question is "Does
the Auditor report the whole Statement of Accounts,
since in his Statement he refers only to a Balance
Sheet?" What we are criticising is the fact that some-
body has the brass to withhold something.

Who is the internal auditor? Who is the man em-
ployed there? Something is prepared and you put it
before the Board, but that something they're boast-
ing is not to be brought before the House. Is that
right? We are not blaming the Minister because quite
frankly I know that he does not know anything about it,
but he represents the Government and collectively
they have to carry the blame.

They must tell us what the true picture is before
we can vote for this $2,100,000, Mr. Chairman. Do you
realise that this is for a loan of $2,100,000? If you went
to the bank tomorrow, whether you carry papers or
not, and you are doing business, they would like to
see your Balance Sheet. I wonder if a private indivi-
dual went to the Nova Scotia Bank and carried this
type of Balance Sheet to them if they would lend
money, to the person Qn it. Do you believe that they
would lend money on this? You could not even get
through the door of Barclay's Bank with this. May
be, there are some things I know, and it is better that
I withhold that for the time being.

Mr. Chairman, I still maintain that the Govern-
ment is not too late to control it. Take all the time
that you want on it, get all the publicity; but do not
take up the taxpayers' money to do this nonsense
which you are getting on with and paying Thomson.
What is Thomson doing? Tell me what Thomson is
doing for the money which you are paying him. I see
though, according to the Auditor's report, you are
not paying him anything. But you say that he is the
Consultant and you know that you are paying him
money. We know that he is paid a tremendous lot of
money. What for?

Mr. Chairman, I think I have made my contribution
to this Resolution, and it is my considered opinion
that unless the Ministers can give us the answers to
the questions which I have posed which must arise
out of the Resolution, I will not be able to vote for it.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, if the Manager of the
Bank of Nova Scotia is a member of the Democratic
Labour Party, one has sitll got to enquire further what
could have prompted the Management to come to any
sort of decision to make a loan of $2.1 million to a
Corporation that has been functioning such as the
Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation.
12.45 p.m.

Now, Sir, from the very Report which has been
handed to the House, there is nothing which shows us
how many meetings the Board has held; andwhen we
bear in mind that members of the Board receive $15
for a meeting, it must give us some cause for concern
due to the fact that the affairs of the Corporation as






1554


presented to us now are in such a state that we have
to wonder whether we have a Board comprised of
members who have an interest in the Corporation, and
if the Bank of Nova Scotia decides to make this loan,
whether we have a Board so constituted as to show any
intention or any capabilities whatever of reaching in
ten years' time the target so brightly painted by the
Leader of the House yesterday.

Now, Mr. Chairman, in the very first place we
must say that the Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation
does not exist in truth and in fact. I say that because
if one were to attempt at this stage to carry out any
sort of investigation into the functions of this body
from its inception,there is nowhere to be found the
initial correspondence, chiefly what we call the Letter
of Intent from the Thomson group to the Government,
which was signed bythe Government. After the Gov-
ernment signed this Letter of Intent, the Corporation
was set up. At the Board's first meeting the Board
ought to have signed such a Letter of Intent to
Thomson, but it was never done. As a matter of fact,
some members of the Board never heardof this Let-
ter of Intent until this Resolution was brought before
this Honourable House. They knew absolutely nothing
about it. I intend to draw the Leader of the House to
his feet two dozen and two times before I sit today. I
want the Leader of the House to get up and deny
whether it is true that the Thomson people have been
making demands for money according to the terms of
their Letter of Intent, a copy of which should have been
in the files of C. B. C., but in this case the Ministry
of Education but which has mysteriously disappeared
from the Files of the Ministry. The strange thing about
it is that only matters pertaining to C.B.C.,have dis-
appeared from ihese particular files. In the face of
things like this, Mr. Chairman, are you to expect us
on this side of the House to support these high-
handed doings?

Mr. Chairman, the Caribbean Broadcastion Cor-
poration was set up in 1963. Let us for argument's sake
just look at one or two minor points. At the end of the
first workingyear a loss was shown. At the end of the
second working year a bigger loss was shown. Now
I want the Leader of the House to tell us after receiv-
ing the Report of the Auditors dated 1st June, 1967 and
their earlier Report of 21st July, 1966, what was the
cause for the delay in Government realising the
chaotic situation with C. B.C. finances, and what kept
them from coming to the House and reporting the
matter even in the manner they have attempted to re-
port at this stage. The fact is that the former Min-
ister of Education has been negotiating with the
Thomson group for a take-over by them, but did
not find the favour of certain of his Cabinet Ministers.
You have heard, Sir, that the Thomson group would
make money out of the operations of C. B. C. They
have been making money without the take -over. C.B.C.
has been operating during the past fewmonths in this
manner. When a few dollars come into the till, they
could not set out to pay their bills, but only those
people who pressed them and called upon them day
after day for payment would be given something to
keep them off for some time.
12.55 p.m.


This is the way that C. B. C. has been operating for
months; but, Mr. Chairman, you will find that there
are lots of reasons why C. B. C. finds itself in the
present position.

Now to the members of the Board. We might hear
that they are not in here to defend themselves, but
they have a Minister to defend them. All I have to
say as regards any of them is in respect to their du-
ties as members of the Board of the Caribbean
Broadcasting Corporation. But before I give them the
"run-through", so to speak, I must remark on this
particular point. There are people occupyinghigh of-
fices in Government who are abysmally ignorant of
what we know as human relations in industry. As a
result of their ignorance, they advise the Govern-
ment accordingly ignorantly. That is why you will hear,
Mr. Chairman, that if two Police Officers are not
speaking to each other, it is only the Commissioner's
business. That is why you will hear that foolish type
of talk.

I am saying that at Caribbean Broadcasting Cor-
poration a similar situation obtains, because the pre-
sent Minister of Education, who is responsible for
Caribbean Broadcasting, has absolutely and he has
shown it no use for certain members of the Board,
and he means to get rid of them, or two members of
the Board.

I see there is a Deputy Chairman, Mr. Clifton
White, and there is Mr. Ellison Carmichael. The pre-
sent Minister of Educationhas no use for them at all -
none whatsoever. The Leader of the House can get up
and deny it when he is ready. You also have on the
Board a Mr. John Fletcher. Let the Leader of the
House tell us now when last Mr. John Fletcher attend-
ed a meeting of the Caribbean Broadcasting Corpora-
tion. Whenever he attended he made it clear that he
was not getting himself involved in the nasty affair of
Caribbean Broadcasting. That is the situation, Mr.
Chairman. In other words, these are the very people
who are managing this organisation.

I am presentingthis picture to you, Mr.Chairman.
I want to let the public understand that, even when
$2,100,000 is given to the Caribbean Broadcasting
Corporation, as a result of the type of human rela-
tionship in the industry it will not pay. It will not pay
even if it were given $2.1 million from all the Banks
in all the Towns in all the world. These are members
on the Board who go there just to get $15 a meeting;
some of the others have no interest at all in what is
going on. What do you find? I must say that the pre-
sent Minister of Education intends liquidating the pre -
sent Board, or getting rid of certain members of the
present Board, but he is not getting rid of those mem-
bers because he wants to see C. B. C. making money
or, at least, paying its way; he is not concerned with
that at all; he wants to see there people who will do
his bidding.

The plan right now, Mr. Chairman, is to cause
nothing but confusion among the members of the
Board, because Mr. Robert Best, who is the present
Editor of the Advocate, has been promised the







1555


management ofCaribbean Broadcasting, and the pres-
ent Acting Manager has also been promised the job.
But what do you find? Mr. Robert Best is a known
friend of the present Minister of Education who is in
charge of Caribbean Broadcasting. So what must
happen, Mr. Chairman? On the Board there are
members who are not prepared to entertain any
suggestion of Mr. Best taking over Caribbean Broad-
casting when this money is voted. They feel that Mr.
Best functions very well as a journalist, but he does
not have the necessary "know-how" to bring Carib-
bean Broadcasting out of its present chaotic condi-
tion. I do not think that they have anything against
Mr. Best personally; so you will find the old system
of pulling down the coop to get rid of the pigeons
is being employed now. The Minister has the inten-
tion of liquidating the Board and putting members
there who will acquiesce and have his nominee, Mr.
Best, appointed to the management of Caribbean
Broadcasting.

Now let us ask ourselves this simple question:
Is this the action of a Minister who really and truly
intends to save, at least, the Leader of this House
the embarrassment to which he has been subjected
throughout the debate on this Resolution? It is just
not fair. It is not fair to the taxpayers of this coun-
try, because however you look at it it has been
said on the floor of this House already that the tax-
payers of this country will have to find the $2.1
million. We are saying here now that the present
set up in the Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation as
regards the projection by the Leader of the House
yesterday we know how he projects, and we know
exactly how much importance to attach to them. We
attach no importance whatsoever from this side
of the House to those projections. We know that
he is not serious. He told us about it being a money-
spinner. Yes, it has been spinning money down the
drain and into Thomson's pockets.

Mr. Chairman, it must be remembered that the
Thomson people supply programme material and get
paid for it; they have a large interest in the Ad-
vertising Agency abroad; they do not pay the local
staff anything to speak of; they are drawing consult-
ant fees; they get a percentage of the gross revenue.
In other words, whether C.B.C., through its opera-
tions, wins, loses or draws the game, Thomson must
get his money. That is the situation. Why should they
come here today and paint a rosy picture? Believe
me, Mr. Chairman, it is rank dishonesty on the part
of the Government. I will tell you further, Sir. The
members of the Government know that they ap-
proached one of the Commercial Banks at Bridge-
town, and the Manager was polite enough to tell
them that it was not a reasonable proposition in
which his Bank could be engaged. ( An hon. mem-
ber: "Which Bank?") The Royal Bank of Canada's
Manager told them so. I want the Manager of the
Bank of Nova Scotia to understand the view that the
Royal Bank of Canada held of this proposition.
1.05 p.m.


Why have I mentioned the Royal? Nowhere in
this Report do they tell you whether or not they owe


the Royal Bank of Canada money. But what do you
find? In their Report on the financial picture this
was signed by Mr. K. D. Hunte the Chairman, and it
goes on:-


"The sale of air time produced an overall in-
crease of 2070 on the 1965 figures. Expenditure was
held at the 1965 level," and the next two words "be-
ing some $20,000 less in fact than in 1965."

Mr. Chairman, when they used the term "being
some $20,000 less in fact", this is a report which is
being made to the Board, the Directors, so to speak,
and are we to understand that the Chairman of the
Board does not even trust his other members of the
Board to know what is the exact amount? He says
"being some $20,000 less in fact." Suppose it was
not in fact! He goes on further "an increase of about
$25,000 in wages". In other words, it tells us that
there was an agreement with the Barbados Workers'
Union and it resulted in their having to pay additional
wages. Why is it that the Corporation has got to
approach this business in such a way as to tell us
that the amount was an increase of about so much
and so much? Do you mean to say that they do not
keep books or that they do not know what the wages
increase cost? This is a Report which the Chairman
is signing to be circulated to his other members of
the Board; do you mean to say that he cannot even
trust the other members of the Board to let them
know what is happening with the Corporation? That
is what it amounts to; but.they go on further and
they now come down to a reduction of approximately
$220,000. Why can't the Chairman of the Board tell
the other members exactly what reductions you have
made and where your increases are? But, Sir, there
is a reason behind all of this.

The Hon. Leader of the House was the Minister
of Education. I am not prepared to say that because
he was the Minister of Education that he was bound
to know everything. It is not necessarily so because
we have even seen him jump to his feet I prefer to
say that he jumped to his foot, because he stands on
one foot whenever he rises. However, Sir, we have
seen him jump up to say that he had no knowledge
of things which the most elementary Minister or a
Long Grade Clerk in the Ministry would know. The
Minister has no knowledge of it, but he might have
had knowledge as to when the Thomson group made
two bold attempts to take over the C.B.C. He may
know that or he may not know it; but whether he
knows it or not, it is a fact, and we are prepared
to establish it on the floor of this House, that par-
ticular negotiations have been dragging on. "The
C.B.C. has been running to ruin in the mean time:
so we cannot wait; but we will not let the Opposition
know what has been going on behind the scenes. We
will not even let the Bank of Nova Scotia know." I
wish to God that the Bank of Nova Scotia could have
some one of its officers to sit in this House at this
time and throughout the debate to report to them
factually our views. They might not need any pro-
tection from us, but we feel that we are doing the
Bank of Nova Scotia a service and we feel that if
we do an establishment like the Bank of Nova Scotia







1556


such a service, we are doing it to the entire banking
community. We are trying to protect them in this
exercise.


I want just to make one point. We have been
presented with something called a Balance Sheet,
but anyone who has had the pleasure of seeing two
or even three of the Statements of Accounts pre-
sented to the Board from time to time two or
three, no more just to see what these Statements
said, to receive the Balance Sheets and attempt in
the remotest manner to make comparisons, Mr.
Chairman, I am sure that if you had it within you,
the picture presented would be enough to make even
the Leader of the House commit a breach of the
peace. This whole thing is nothing but rank dis-
honesty from beginning to end. Nothing at all what-
soever is clear as even well, I will tell you this;
the Manager of the Royal Bank of Canada says that
it was not reasonable, and he must know. Remember,
Sir, that the Manager of the Royal Bank of Canada
apparently had only received a delegation from the
Board a well chosen one, one that could wield the
most influence.
1.15 p.m.

He heard after he examined all that they had
to say; but he came to the conclusion that it was
not really reasonable.

Now, on the whole, the members of the Board
of the Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation have been
fooled in this exercise. I mist charge the Chairman
of the Board with the matter because the ex-repre-
sentative, Mr. Keith Hunte, can be no fool neither
morning or night, and when he appends his signature
to a Report such as this, one would feel that Mr.
Hunte has fixed his signature to something that can
bear examination even merely on the face of it.

But no, Sir, nothing of the kind. You will find
that while we have in this Statement of Accounts for
1966 figures showing us that $277,177.56 were ad-
ministrative expenses, I am to say here and now
that members of the Board were shown and received
figures bearing out that the administrative expenses
for the same period amounted to $300,000. So you
will understand, Mr. Chairman, that the Leader of
the House as the former Minister of Education has
got to accept the blame fairly and squarely for the
financial position in which C.B.C. now finds itself.
He cannot get away from it however much he feigns
ignorance of a lot of things happening yesterday,
hoping to gain the sympathy of the Opposition. Yes-
terday, he showed himself as a child dealing with
the most dangerous weapon. That is what he pre-
tended yesterday.

But, Mr. Chairman, that does not mean much
to us. We have to bear in mind that even when we
look at our Capital Expenditure vote for the period
which we have just passed here that the sum of
$2,100,000 is much more than any single item of
Capital Expenditure anywhere in those Estimates.
That is what you have to bear in mind. As the hon.


senior member for the City said, $2,100,000 is money
any part of the world.

We have got to make it clear and let it be
understood that we knowthat if the Leader of the
House and the members of the Government can just
come and present a little eyewash and have the
House agree to lending this $2,100,000 to Caribbean
Broadcasting Corporation, it simply means that in
the not distant future we will find ourselves having
to look for more. Let us ask ourselves if the tax-
payers can afford all of this.

Mr. Chairman, even at this stage, $2,100,000
can build lots of houses to house many people whose
names are on the list of the Housing Authority.
There are also many officers of the Government who
are waiting to be loaned money to get a little house
for themselves and their families, but what do we
find ourselves doing in borrowing this $2,100,000
from the Bank of Nova Scotia? Look at the thousands
of little children who cannot be properly housed in
schools in this Island! There is no room in the inn.
We are not borrowing this money to build schools.
There are no places in the schools for children, but
what are we doing? We are borrowing this money to
finance the biassed operations, the onesided opera-
tions of the Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation.

I will tell you something, Mr. Chairman. There
springs to my memory an instance. It arose out of a
case when the Editor of the "Daily News" had
published an article I think it touched on some-
thing about the number of persons who were likely
to be going to the United States after Independence.
I think that was the subject matter -and immediately
after that publication, the fools of the Press of this
country, a spineless people, were summoned to the
Ministerial Buildings at Bay Street.

I was one of the fools. I turned up out of sheer
curiosity. I wanted to know what it was all about. It
was summoned by the Government Information Offi-
cer. The Prime Minister had something to say. I
went up and I remember asking a most senior mem-
ber of the Press at the time and the Editor of the
"Daily News" what we had been summoned there
for that morning. After it was explained to me, a
junior in the field of journalism, I suggested to the
Editor of the "Daily News" and this very senior
newspaper man that when we entered that room that
morning and the Prime Minister set out in any way
to attack Mr. Cozier, the Editor of the "Daily News"
for what he has written or what had appeared in that
newspaper, we should decide to make a dramatic
walk-out and we would be making bigger headline
news than all the Prime Minister might have to say.

I was told "Boy, wait your chance' you will have
to learn."

The Press Conference was televised, sir. After
the Prime Minister set out to castigate Mr. Cozier,
I beckoned to him and to Mr. Joe Broome who was
present. We held a conference inside the Conference
Room. I suggested to them that that was the hour







1557


when we should walk out on the Prime Minister.
They did not agree with me. They preferred to le't
him have his say and then let Mr. Cozier reply. I
said then, "well, if that is your decision, I will
abide."

Mr. Chairman, you can take it from me. That
morning I remembered the Prime Minister carried
on and on so that I said then to myself "Is this what
these experienced journalists are allowingthe Press
to be subjected to?" But we listened on and at the
end of the Prime Minister's harangue, Mr. Cozier
set out to reply.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would like to advise the hon.
junior member for St. Peter that what he is debating,
in my opinion, is irrelevant to the subject matter
under discussion and I would prefer him to continue
to deal with the Resolution under discussion.
1.25 p.m.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, with all due respect
to what you have to say, convention requires that all
hon. members in this House and particularly those
addressing the Chair must take notice of you. That
being the case, Mr. Chairman, after listening to you
I do not want to tell you that you want noticing. I am
accusing C.B.C. of biassed advertising and reporting
by producing one side of a picture. That is what I
am doing; so do not let anybody mislead you.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: What I want to tell the hon.
junior member for St. Peter is that people going to
the United States and a conference at the Prime
Minister's office has absolutely nothing to do with
the debate under discussion.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I quite agree with
you; but in view of the fact that C.B.C. whom we
are now being asked to vote $2.1 millionfor, reported
one side of the story and did not make mention that
Mr. Cozier was present at the conference that
morning, how could I be out of context? This is
C.B.C. reporting and not any nonsense from Gall
Hill. I am showing to this House where C.B.C. went
out of its way to do injustice to the Press, and if you
were standing in my place, you would be attempting,
if you had the fire within you, if you had the where-
withal, to try to put the case even more forcibly than
I have attempted to do.

The situation is one where we find that even
the Reports as presented do not show this House
whether the radio operations or the television oper-
ations lost the money, although the law requires
that this be done, but we know that the television
operations carried Barbados to hell. Let the Leader
of the House get up and deny these things, because
you know, Mr. Chairman, there was a time when he
was forbidden to go to C.B.C.; so he might not know
all that went on. The Minister has not jumped up
to deny it.

The amount being asked for is $2.1 million.
We have got to bear in mind that nobody has any-
thing against the Bank of Nova Scotia, but why is it


that some other Banks in Bridgetown are not given
some of this business? A Corporation like C.B.C.
should try to raise this money amongst as many
Banks as reasonably possible. It should try to make
friends with as many people as possible. I feel the
Manager of the Bank will soon be transferred, any-
how. We know, Mr. Chairman, that being in associa-
tion with the Thomson group has caused all this
anxiety, because whether or not the company made
money, Thomson had to get money for doing nothing.
You have hard working people who are going all out
day to sell Air Time and do whatever they can to
build up the finances of the Corporation, and then
you find the Thomson group doing absolutely nothing
but taking the calf out of the cow's belly; so you must
understand what effect it must have.

Apart from that, I have heard the hon. senior
member for St. Joseph mention that right now C.B.C.
is losing the services of some very able techni-
cians. Rediffusion and elsewhere have offered them
a better pay, and you must understand that these
people have been told time and time again that the
Corporation is losing money, though they know that
the Thomson people are getting money; so you cannot
pay Thomson and pay your local staff too. I want the
Bank of Nova Scotia to understand that in a very short
time they may find that C.B.C. is employing a lot of
nincompoops who know nothing and destroy the equip-
ment, and despite all the projections for payingback
the loan in ten years, before that time a lot of people
who are associated with it now will have to take
boat and go somewhere else, because the operations
of this Corporation are not such as cai- stand the
light of day at any stage. The Leader of the House
ought to know that time and again members of staff
have been told that they have got to make sacrifices
to bring the Corporation through. What kindof sacri-
fices are you asking these people to make under such
conditions?
1.35 p.m.


Mr. Chairman, you will see that they start to
show a film for one or two nights, and the third night
it disappears from the screen. Film Companies have
been demanding their money. I will tell you some-
thing now. Caribbean Broadcasting has the name of
Barbados similar to how the West Indies Hospital
Sweepstake has the name of Barbados abroad. The
Film Companies know that Caribbean Broadcasting
does not pay. The time may come, Sir, when one
night when you switch on your television you may
merely see the picture of the Leader of the House,
and they will switch off just like when we had the
opening of the University College Wing. A few weeks
ago on the screen was the Prime Minister delivering
his Presidential Address, and flashed on the screen
was Doctor Who! We may soon find ourselves with Doc-
tor Who, Doctor No, and so on.


If the Leader of the House had come here and
given us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
the truth, he would have completely disarmed the
Opposition, but what has he done? With regard to






1558


the radio end of C.B.C., what can the Minister tell
us, or what does the Report tell us? What are the
Minister's projection as regards Schools broadcast-
ing in this 10-year period, or even for the present?
This Report does not tell us anything whatsoever
about those things. I mlst tell you that the whole
matter is a huge joke as regards Schools broad-
casting, because at those schools to which pro-
gramnes are beamed the halls are unsuitable for
receiving such programmes. The children are herded
together in a hall, or in such close proximity to the
rest of the school that there is nothing but confusion,
Sir, when Schools broadcasts are being relayed.

Sir, the argument might be advanced that in
some of the City schools here and there you might
find a suitable hall and so on. What we want to say
is that it is not so well chosen as to lend itself to
the ears of those pupils to whom the programm$n
are addressed, and the hall does not serve the pu.
pose at all. You will see that we have to be very, very
careful even if we attempt in any respect to entertain
what the Minister has said on this whole matter. We
have to be ultra cautious in accepting even the little
that he has attempted to proffer.

With regard to production on television, there
can be no doubt that local shows and local pro-
ductions are vastly superior and far more cultural
than some of the things that are flashed on the screen
night after night. I believe that a little expenditure
will be involved in producing some of these things
locally, and where ready cash is not available you
will have to resort to crediting, whether from over-
seas or elsewhere. The situation is that we do not
know in truth and in fact what is going to be the
next position of the Caribbean Broadcasting Cor-
poration. I would look here just for a moment at
the accounts for the year ending January to Decem-
ber, 1966.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, if the hon.
member will indicate how much more time he would
like if he is likely to finish, say, in the next quarter
of an hour........


Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I do not understand
the Leader of the House. He says: "If I were going
to finish in another quarter of an hour, he would
agree for me to carry on and finish." I told him that I
am going on longer than a quarter of an hour and he
says: "Go on then." Let us take a break now. Do I
move that we take a break now?


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I meant that we could take
the suspension when the hon. member has finished
his speech.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, we are in Committee;
I can stop at this stage and come back again, which
I intend to do. Is the Minister and Leader of the
House suggesting that because I may feel inclined to
eat now it is going to shorten my speech? This is
a convenient time to take the break.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, Ibegto move
that Your Honour do now report progress and ask for
leave to sit again.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair and re-
porte d accordingly.

SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this sitting be now suspended for half an hour.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative with-
out division, and Mr. SPEAKER suspended the sitting accord-
in gly.

1.48 p.m.

RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

On re-assembling.

Mr. SPEAKER: When the sitting was suspended
the House was in Committee of Supply.


Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair, and the House resumed Com-
mittee of Supply, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.

Mr. CH AIRM AN: On the suspension of the sitting,
the hon. junior member for St. Peter was speaking.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, a look at the Balance
Sheet for the year ending December, 1966, has a
very remarkable omission in respect of the Corpora-
tion's operations for that year. If you look at the year
1965, there was an amount of $35,405 pre-payments
and deposits. For the year 1966, the accounts show
no pre -payments and deposits. Mr. Chairman, I know
that this is not a true picture of the state of affairs of
the Corporation. I am sure that for the year ending
December 1966, that there were pre-payments, but
the accounts do not show such an entry, and, Mr.
Chairman, it might be these small things or rather,
these things which mightappear to be small, which
make us feel pretty indignant over the state of affairs
of the Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation as pre-
sented to us by the Hon. Leader of the House. For
instance, the Hon. Leader of the House wants us to
believe that by the end of December, 1967, there is
going to be an expected trading deficit of $336,000. I
am pleading with the Hon. Leader of the House to re-
examine his figures and see ifhehas not slipped into
error somewhere, because that figure should never
have read $336,000. It is, in truth and in fact,
$563,000. I am just asking the Hon. Leader of the
House if he would look at his figures again. It is not
a case in this respect particularly that he tries to mis -
lead us, but I feel that in this particular case he has
slipped into error somewhere along the road. I would
like to ask him if he would tell us what the true posi-
tion is as regards the trading deficit up to the year






1559


-December, 1967. We are told that for the year ending.
December, 1968, there is a projected deficit of
$184,000 and that for the year ending December 1969,
that amount will be only $81,000.

In any business which a person is carrying on,
you must take stock at some time or other. You have
got to take stock in order to see what you have in your
bond house, and among your personnel as well. You
have got to see if production is at its highest rate,
and if not, why not? There are no two ways about it.
It cannot be deniedthat it took the Caribbean Broad-
casting a period of time before the finances could be
depleted as we find they are today. It is not a case
where there is any evidence of any person stealing a
large sum of money from the C.B.C. or anything of
the kind at any one time. We are not suggesting any-
thing of the kind; so what have we got to do? We have
got to learn from the Minister what plans he has got
on foot. Are you going to dismiss your present staff?
I do not think so, unless they deserve it. If you are
not going to take a drastic remedy to apply to a
drastic ill, the remedy which the ill demands, how are
you going to tell us that by December, 1969, your
trading deficit will have been reduced to a mere
$81,000? We are being asked to vote this $2,100,000
and we are told that this amount of money is to re-
finance the Corporation, so to speak, and to give it
working capital; but there is something which does
not smell so well in this matter. Just last week there
was withdrawn from before this House a Resolution
for $50,000 to finance the Corporation to the end of
the present financial year. I am wondering if that
referred to the end of the financial year or the fin-
ancial year of the Government or the financial year
of the Corporation. There are lots of reasons when
we see the Hon. Leader of the House get up and ask
for leave to withdraw the Resolution. It is not a mere
withdrawal; there is something a back of it and those
are things at the bottom of which we want to get. For
instance, if that $50,000 had been wanted to finance
the working of the Corporation to the end of, say, this
present month, the Resolution has been withdrawn.

Is the Bank of Nova Scotia financingyou with that
$50,000 to carry on your operations for the period
for which you had asked for the money to carry you
through in this Resolution which you have withdrawn?
If the Bank is advancing that money, on what authority
is the Bank advancing the money? Is that $50,000 to
be a part of this $2,100,000 which you are now asking
for? Those are the things on which we would like to
have some sort of explanation before we can really
and truly entertain the Minister with his Resolution
for this sum of money.
2.30 p.m.

We cannot deny that at the Caribbean Broadcast-
ing Corporation there is definitely too much Minis-
terial interference; for instance, I have got to admire
the former Minister of Education. You will be sur-
prised to know that he spent considerable hours, even
going into the wee hours of the morning, at the
studios of C.B.C. when they were at Black Rock.
Evidently, he had his reasons. I am not now saying


that he was like a watchman watching property.
Nothing of the kind, but he was there at that time.

However, you never heard that there was this
sort of Ministerial interference that you have come
to know of since this Ministry has changed. Therefore,
you have got to find in the first place that the mem-
bers of the Board are people who have an interest in
seeing that the Corporation lives up to expectation
not only in the production on the screen, but that its
financial affairs are in an orderly manner and carried
out according to the requirements of the law so that
if at any time it shouldbe found necessary to approach
this House to help save a situation or to do anything
to help the Corporation, hon. members would have
before them a true state of affairs and an honest
picture of the dealings of the Corporation; and in
hearing an explanation from the appropriate Minister,
they would cheerfully support the request because
they would have been satisfied that this Corporation
is fulfilling a need in the cornin.nity that it is do-
ing something and uplifting our people, whatever it
might be. But that is not the case as it is today.

In this case today, we are led to believe that all
sorts of things except what are really pertinent to
the Corporation's need for $2,100,000, are pertinent.
Mr. Chairman, we wouldlike to knowfrom the Minis-
ter how much money the Corporation needs now co
liquidate its outstanding indebtedness. After we have
been told that, we ought to be told how much money
it requires as working capital for a particular period
- let us say to the end of the Corporation's present
financial year.

Let us then be told, Mr. Chairman, if you find
that you have been carrying too heavy a load in a
particular respect, as we say, paying out money to
the Thomson organisation for doing absolutely
nothing. This is a thing which we want to be told us.
How do you propose to curtail expenditure in that
particular respect? It is not good enough.

The Corporation is in debt. A decision must be
taken here today because of the desire of Govern-
ment members to relieve the Corporation some-
what. But in truth and in fact you know that after you
have voted this money, you are not relieving the
Corporation; you are relieving the Corporation at the
present moment of its indebtedness, that is, you are
giving it enough in hand to satisfy taxes. It is not
enough. We want to hear something more of this
particular matter.

Mr. Chairman, I believe that I have said on this
particular matter at least enough at this particular
point; but there are one or two things which must
bring the Minister to his feet and we want to hear his
reply,for instance, there are short term loans in re-
spect of the year ending December, 1966, to the sum
of $321,306.84. We want the Leader of the House to
tell us from what sources did those loans come. Let
us say that you know how much money you owe the
Royal Bank of Canada nowl Is it not that there is an
agreement with the Nova Scotia Banik that it is willing






1560


to advance this money to pay off the Royal Bank of.
Canada and they are going to hold the bag? Whatever
is the agreement that you are entering into, we want
to be told something about it because we would like to
be told at this stage so that if anything worse should
befall the Corporation at a future date, we cannot say
that we were not told.

That is what we have to consider at this stage.
It is not good enough, because the Government has
its weight of numbers, to be standing up and saying
that regardless of what the Opposition says, we have
our numbers and we are going to vote for it. That is
just not good enough. We are asking the Minister to
put everything which he knows about the Corporation
before us.

Sir, I have a num !r of points which I can raise
in Committee at a later stage, but Iam just prepared
not to burden the Minister at this hour with all, as
we want to hear him. We want to need him and hear
what he has to say on this particular matter because
the Minister has had experience in commerce, and
I am sure that no business in Bridgetown is going to
have a trading loss of $676,505.85 and just decide to
turn to a Bank and borrow more money, throw it into
the till and carry on the business as they were
carrying it on before without a guarantee of some
sort of restriction.

We have got to be very careful. The taxpayers
have got to pay the cost of all of this, and it is only
fair to us that we be told, if you find that your total
loss is as much as $676,505.85, that youtell us what
you need, let us say, as working capital and what you
propose doing about reducing your administrative ex-
penses to a minimum.
2.40 p.m.

We know that quite a number of people have come
here from overseas sent down by the Thomson group.
We have all heard about Mr. Dennis Vance and others,
but C. B. C. had to pay them; so that is why we have
got to be very careful and guard against bringing
people here in the future to perform duties which can
better be performed by our local people.

Mr. Chairman, I cannot sit down without touching
on the note of human relations at the Corporation, and
I can only appeal to the Minister to seek out and fer-
ret out wherever it is who is so conducting himself as
to make life unbearable for the staff at C. B. C., for
as you know, Sir, the last General Manager we had
there was a very efficient Civil Servant, butwhen he
found he could stand it no longer and made written
application to be relieved of his duties at a specific
time, he got the curt reply that he could go immedi-
ately. That is the way a senior Civil Servant has been
treated. He could not stand conditions any longer.
These are things that are happening. It is not decent
enough by any standard, and if you are going to treat
your Civil Servants who might be seconded for duty at
C. B. C. in that manner, what do you think is going to
be the treatment meted out to lesser mortals at C.B.C?
I will await the reply of the Minister at this stage.


Mr. ST. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, before the Minis-
ter replies, there are a few matters which I would
like him to deal with in his reply, and I have crysta-
lised them in the form of questions. I have a copy of
them so that the Minister can have it. We have had
the opportunity of studying the debates which took
place in October, 1963 when the Bill was introduced
by the then Minister of Communications and Works,
the hon. junior member for St. Michael, and he said
then "The Consortium consists of Television Inter-
national Enterprises Ltd., Thom-on Television
(International) Ltd., and the National Broadcasting
Corporation of America. This agency is proceeding
with the technical aspects of the establishment of a
radio station on the basis of a Letter of Intent and
Instruction which has been read in the House."

Arising out of that, Sir, we on this side would like
to know whether it is not afact that N. B. C. has with-
drawn from the original Consortium, and if it is so,
was there any new agreement in respect to (a) the fees
to be received by the other members of the Consor-
tium and (b) with respect to the services to be per-
formed by the other members of the Consortium' We
would like to know whether the Consortium pays for
any member of the staff of C. B. C. resident in Bar-
bados and working daily at C. B. C. Again, Sir, the
Hon. Minister at that time said "In reward for the
services outlined above, the Consortium would re-
ceive a commission of 15 percent per annum for the
years 1, 2 and 3, ten percent per annum for the years
4, 5 and 6, and five percent per annum for the years
7, 8, 9 and 10 upon the revenue derived from the sale
of radio air time and other revenues which could be
regarded as wholly commercial after deduction of all
discounts and commissions. The Consortium would
bear the cost and expenses related to the Project.
Manager's functions, including travelling expenses,
and in addition the expenses of any and all Consortium
members required for consultation on behalf of the
proposed radio service in Barbados and overseas.
With the advent of television, the Consortium as
consultants would advise on the problems of staff
integration and on the reorganisation of the radio
service. The fee for these additional services would
be re-negotiated with the Government through the de -
signated authority at that time."

Arising out of that, we want to know whether it is
not a fact that the original agreement as disclosed by
the Minister of Com -inications in the House only
dealt with the sharing of revenue derived from the
sale of radio time advertising and other commercial
revenues after deducting trading discount, and had no-
thing to do with revenue derived from the sale of ad-
vertising time on television. Now that television has
come, has there been any new agreement with respect
to the Consortium on the sharing of revenue derived
from the sale of advertising time on television and
other commercial revenues attributable to television?
We want to know if there is such an agreement, when
it was made and if it was ever disclosed to this House.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, it was inevi-
table, I suppose, that a debate on so very important an







1561


issue should detain the House for some time, and.I
think quite rightly that this is nothing to be regretted,
that it is all right and proper that Government Depart-
ments, Ministries or other agencies of Government
ought from time to time to come under the most
searching public scrutiny.
2.50 p.m.

I myself last week warmly welcomed the idea,
and I must confess that that aspect of it never occurred
to me before, that the House should have an oppor-
tunity in Committee of Supply to cast the most search-
ing scrutiny on the affairs of the Caribbean
Broadcasting Corporation and not,.as was originally
thought, to have a general debate on policy on the Ab-
stract Resolution which was before the House and
which is still before the House.

In the course of this debate, although the hon.
members opposite and particularly the hon. junior
member for St. Peter may poke fun at me when I
say that a lot of the things which have been said in this
Committee yesterday and today, I quite truthfully have
not heard before and I repeat and I will say which
they are it is nonetheless true that I had not heard
some of them before. It is obvious that the hon.
members opposite have channels of communication
open to them which are denied members of the Gov-
ernment. This seems to be a fact; but I would wish
that even when we debate matters and bring facts to
bear on the discussion, we should do so a bit more
openly as representatives of the people.

I said in here last week, and Irepeat it again: Any
member of the General Assembly ought to take oppor-
tunity as frequently as is convenient to him :o visit
all Government Departments, Ministries and Agencies
as is their right. I use to say this when I was in the
Opposition. I rememberonedaywhen I said it in this
House, Mr. Cox took me up on it and said that that
could not be so because merely being member of the
House of Assembly gave you no right to go to the Min-
isterial Buildings and ask the Financial Secretary any
question. We had a ding-dong argument, and I believe
at the time Sir Grantley Adams intervened il the de-
bate. I am speaking under correction, but I believe
either Sir Grantley Adams or Dr. Cummings inter-
vened in the debate andupheld my view. It is a point of
view which I held when I was in the Opposition, and I
repeat it here now I am in the Government. It is not a
privilege; it is the right of members of this General
Assembly to enter upon and to visit, whether he has
given notice or not, any Government Ministry, Depart-
ment or Agency and this would include Statutory
Corporations during their working hours and engage
the people so employed in pertinent discussion of the
way in which the affairs of the Agency, Ministry, or
whatever it is, are being run.

Hon. members opposite may think me imperti-
nent, if I were to urge this on them, and it would be
impertinent because, as I say, it is not a privilege,
but it is their right. I could certainly be forgiven for
expressing the personal point of view that they would
exercise this right more frequently and they would
get, I believe, the same kind of results as they get


,more secretly with less bitterness andless political
emotional involvement. I would certainly be in favour
of this, and I do not think my colleagues can speak
for themselves any of us would think it strange or
wrong if this were a practice which hon. members
adopted. I urge this upon them. I think it would help
public affairs tremendously in this Island if this were
done, and if, in consequence of doing this,they could
come in this House and say: I did not wait to hear
this by somebody telling it to me secretly; I went for
myself; I questioned the people involved, and I was
told this. Why is this so, and what have you to say
about it?"

I say this as a preliminary, because if I tell you
that some of the charges made about the Caribbean
Broadcasting Corporation and its workings I have
not heard and do not know, I am really telling the
truth because it could easily be that the Minister, or
the Government itself collectively, might sometimes
be the last to hear of matters goingon in the Govern-
ment Departments. The Opposition, on the other hand,
could easily be the first to hear, because it is the
business of members of the Opposition to hear, and,
if what they hear is significant enough, to exploit the
situation arising out of the difficulty.

Now, in outlining this matter, I want to answer
all hon. members' queries. Som;i of them,of course,
will require further research which I cannot have at
my disposal at the moment, but I think that most of
them I can answer. Wnen I was outlining the Govern-
ment's point of view yesterday and also the financial
difficulties of the Caribbean Broadcasting Corpora-
tion, I pointed out that it was my view and the view of
others inside the Cabinet and more intimately con-
nected with the day-to-day working of the Corpora-
tion that, apart from any other consideration, what
was wrong with the Corporation was that it suffered
from the beginning from the lack of working capital.

The hon. senior mm: .er for St. Thomas did take
me up on this point and said that whether or not you
had equity capital at your disposal ought not to effect
materially the efficiency or, perhaps, even the pro-
priety of the undertaking. This is a matter of opinion.
But it did seem to me yesterday and it still seems
to me to be significant and to be worth attention that
if you set up any business enterprise of whatever
nature, and it has to run its day-to-dayexpenses out
of loan capital so as to buy its equipment, pay wages,
buy even significant things like a postage stamp, a
time must come, unless its revenue position is so
fantastically good, when it must feel the shortage of
working capital. I am still convincedof this, and I am
still convinced that while you may be able to point a
finger here and there at wrongs which should be put
right defects in policy, as the hon. junior member
for St. Peter said, andpossible defects inharmonious
relations while you may be able to pointout with
accuracy that there is something wrong in the whole
arrangement which appears to provide for such out-
draining of revenue to Managing Agents I can admit
and concede all of this yet at the same time at the
bottom of the situation is the lack of dia -to-day work-
ing capital; and until this is rectified, the Corpora-






1562


tion, even if it were to put in train all of the improve -
ments suggested by hon. members opposite, would
sooner or later run into the same kind of difficulty.

In short, what is proposed, when you strip it of
all the argument or discussion which has come around
this matter, is to enable the Corporation to pay off its
outstanding debts which, as far as I can see, total
$1 1/2 million, and then leave with it some $1/2
million which it may use as working capital on call
whenever it has need of it. This is the position, as I
understand it, and it has been explained to the Cabinet.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I do not
want to interrupt the Hon. Leader of the House. I am
going to say right now that I thinkhe is replying in a
very suitable and adequate way at the moment, but I
should be glad if he would expand a little bit on what
was explained in the Cabinet in respect of the repay-
ment. If the argument is that loan capital is crippling
the Corporation because of the necessity for paying
interest, is not interest going to be paid between now
and 1970 on this?
3 p.m.

The argument against loan capital and in favour of
equity capital is that if you do not pay interest on
equity capital, if you cannot pay dividends, you cannot
pay dividends, but at least you do not have to pay in-
terest on it. The shareholders are losingthe interest.
If this is just loan capital, it is not going to improve
the position of the C. B. C. What exactly is going to be
done? I have not heard a word said about what rate of
interest is going to be paid on this $2,100,000. What
is the present prime commercial rate? The Adden-
dum 1o the Resolution really does not tell us in so
many words whether interest is going to be paid
between now and 1970 or not.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, the hon. mem -
ber's point is well taken, and before I go further I
should, perhaps, link that point with the criticism
which has been made by the hon. junior member for
St. Peter. The hon. member made some strictures
against the Bank of Nova Scotia which are very seri-
ous, and if I interpret him correctly, his point of view
was that other commercial banks or at least those of
them who knew of the situation of the C. B. C., fought
shy of entering this proposition because they did not
think, or in the case of one of them, it was not thought
to be reasonable. He did give us a hint of this last
week and I got on my feet at the time to say that I do
not think that this was thesituation so far as the Bank
of Nova Scotia was concerned, but I could not give a
denial then because I was relying on my memory,
although, in some corner of my mind, there was a hazy
recollection of how the Bank of Nova Scotia came to be
involved in this particular exercise. Of course, the
Bank of Nova Scotia are the C. B. C's bankers any-
how, but I am speaking in respect of this particular
exercise. I asked for the Ministry's files and I found
that on the 27th July, 1967, while Iwas still the Min-
ister of Education, the Permanent Secretary minuted
to me the report of a meeting which was held on the
day before, that is on the 26th July, 1967, and that
meeting was held at the Financial Secretary's office


at the request of the General Manager of the Bank of
Nova Scotia. Those present at the meeting were the
Financial Secretary, the General Manager of C. B. C.,
the Manager of the Bank of Nova Scotia and the Ac-
countant and the Permanent Secretary of the Min-
istry. Now it appears that that meeting had been
arranged at the request of the Manager of the Bank
of Nova Scotia because hehadseen-when I say that
he had seen, I mean that it was submitted to him, not
that he had seen it clandestinely that C. B. C. had
submitted to him in the capacity of their Bankers,
the financial projection and the analysis which were
made of the position of C. B. C. and the projections
for the future. The Bank Manager statedat the meet-
ing that he had requested this meeting in order to con-
sider the position of C. B. C. with special reference to
outstanding loans of which Iam speaking all that time
-about $1 million was overdue and another 1/4
million would fall due by the end of the year. He said
that he had studied the analysis which confirmedhis
conclusion independently reached that there wa: every
indication that the Caribbean Broadcasting Corpora-
tion will be a profitable concern if it could be
afforded a moratorium from the payment of debts un-
til 1971. He made a tentative proposition that the Bank
of Nova Scotia should make a loan of $2 million to the
Government which would be repayable at the rate of
$250,000 a year beginning at the end of 1971. He fur-
ther stated that this could be passed to C.B.C. on
terms agreed on between the Government andthe Cor-
poration. He continued that such an arrangement would
have to be approved by the Head Office, but the.
Manager thought that it would go through so long as
the transaction was between the Bank and the Gov-
ernment. That is the note of the meeting.

Mr. Chairman, it was my recollection, although
I could not remember clearly last week, that in so
far as this particular exercise was concerned, that
the question or the point of borrowing was made on
the initiative of the Manager of the Bank ofNova Scotia
himself, who said that he had studied the analysis of
C. B. C's financial position and that he had reached
the independent conclusion that it would be a viable
proposition so long as it could clear itself of its in-
debtedness, and to that extent he was prepared, tenta-
tively, that is, informally, until he had consulted his
Head Office, to recommend a loan of $2 million to the
Government which would be repayable at the rate of
$1/4 million a year beginning at the end of 1971. Only,
that he would have to consult his Head Office and they,
of course, have since been consulted and they have
since agreed. That is how it all started. I like to be
fair to everybody concerned. It is possible that other
banks may have been consulted, but I do not know this
to be a fact. The hon. member asked about the Royal
Bank of Canada, I think. Well, I can refer to the files
and get proof of this; we do owe them something like
$72,000, I think it is. There is ashort-term loan out-
standing for them. Iwould like to say, as I was saying,
that it is possible that other banks may have been ap-
proached informally. There is no record on the files
of this, but I myself would doubt very much whether
the relationship between the Bank of Nova Scotia and
the other banks could be so bad or so brittle that the
other Banks would try to make it appear that the Bank






1563


of Nova Scotia was being left to hold the baby be-
cause they made this proposition to us.
3.10 p.m.

I say this now. I would believe myself that on the
face of that if a similar proposition had been made
to any other bank, I see no reason why it could not
be accepted or entertained because it was made
by the Manager of Nova Scotia, according to my
belief, on his own initiative after he had reached an
independent conclusion as to the true state of affairs
of C.B.C.

Mr. HINDS: I wonder if the Minister can tell
us if prior to the request of the Financial Secretary,
the Manager of Nova Scotia had not been inter-
viewed by somebody from C.B.C. on this matter.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Well, I do not know if
somebody had been interviewing him. I can say that
he had seen, and had submitted to him, an analysis
of C.B.C.'s financial position, and it was in conse-
quence of what he had seen and studied that he had
asked for the meeting. Therefore obviously, some-
body must have been talking with him even if it were
no more than giving him a financial report or what-
ever it was. Somebody must have been talking with
him; but anyhow, the fact is that having studied the
analysis, having seen the financial report, presuma-
bly for the preceding year, he reached that independ-
end conclusion and made an offer.

I would like to say in passing that there would be no
reason whatsoever for other com-nercial banks to be
in any way upset about this because the Government,
so far as Iam aware, does business with all of them.
I think Barclays acts for Housing. I cannot remember
all in detail, but I know that all of them work for
Government agencies and while some of them may
feel that the business is not as evenly spread out as
it may be, I know that all of them get some of it, and
certainly I can speak with greater knowledge here.

The Royal Bank of Canada does the business of
the Transport Board. I have been recently seeing the
reports coming to the Cabinet from the National
Insurance Board and I see it to be their policy to
put on deposit accounts equal amounts of its business
as it is accumulated on all four banks, so that so far
as National Insurance is concerned, all four of them
are doing an equal amount of business; so that I
think, what one bank may lose on the swing, it may
gain on the round-about, and there is no reason what-
ever for ill-feeling between any of them so far as
this is concerned.

I add one rider to this: Iwould be very astonished
indeed if the Bank of Nova Scotia with the wealth of
experience which it must command in its entire
system got into something which turned out to be
different from what the Manager himself thought. I
would be very astonished indeed and I do not think
this is likely to be the case.

Coming back to the hon. senior member for St.
Thomas, these are the terms so far as I can see upon


which the loan is negotiated: a moratorium until
1971: but I have no evidence before me that interest
would not be paid between now and then. I would
imagine that this will be so, in which case the ques-
tion which the hon. member asked will be very well
taken that charges will still have to be made even
although the period of repayment is spread out.

The Corporation will have to examine this
aspect most carefully and see to it in their examina-
tion of it that they are not landed in the same sort
of difficulty. As I have said just now, the difference
between this loan and previous loans is just this.
The Corporation owes, I would say, $1.6 million to
clear off its accumulated indebtedness. It is proposed
to borrow $2.1 million. It seems to me that a quite
sensible arrangement has been arrived at to allow
the Corporation to have $1/2 million of working
capital at its disposal which it may call in, and it
would be silly to take it up and pay interest on it
if it is not using it.

It seems to me that it wouldhave this fair amount
of working capital at its disposal to use on call if it
should need it, and this would be, in my opinion, a
different sort of proposition and an easier situation
to the present position which obtains.

Hon. members do not need me to rehash the
whole position. They are familiar with it. We came
in and got guarantees for loans to be raised for
money to be advanced for equipment to be bought,
and certain necessary expenditure to be gone into
to set up radio and television. Radio and television
are now a consolidated exercise, and it is different
for me to say whether without television, radio would
be able to pay or not; Idonot know. The Corporation
and its advisers will know this. An hon. member
suggested I think it is the hon. junior member for
St. Peter that it was television more than radio,
if I understand him correctly, which was eating up
the money.

Be that as it may, let me turn to some other
matters which were raised in the course of this de-
bate. We had some suggestions made by hon. mem-
bers which and I am not saying this to flatter them
because I know this genuinely to be so in my view,
are worthy of consideration. I would not say 'worthy
of acceptance' because you must have consideration
before you have acceptance.

The hon. junior member for St. Peter said
earlier this morning I do not want to misquote him -
that the former Minister, referring of course to me,
was negotiating with the Thomson group for a take-
over bid, but this did not find favour with some of
his Cabinet colleagues. That is not so. Up to the time
I left the Ministry, I had been having periodical
discussions with the Board of C.B.C. and with the
Thomson group about the position of C.B.C.

It is true, certainly, that I had discussions with
the Thomson group, but the hon. meniber said that I
was negotiating with them for a take-over bid. That
is what I am denying. I am not denying that I had










-discussions with them because I had discussions with
them. I have heard their proposals but I have not
entertained them. That is all. So you must get the
record straight.

Mr. HINDS: Am I to understand, Mr. Chairman,
that the Minister is not denying that the Thomson
group made a bid to take over to him? They made
the suggestion to him, but he did not make it to
them.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I would not deny that; there
is nothing in that to deny. It is a fact. Do you know
why they wanted it? They want it because they them -
selves believe that even with its present operational
structure other than financial that they can take it
and make it a multi-million dollar enterprise. They
believe this and their wanting to take it over was
not gratuitously to ease the Government or the Cor-
poration out of what in the sympathy of their hearts
they believed was an intolerable situation for us.
3.20 p.m.

They saw dhat, even as it is, with what capital
they would be prepared to put into it, and it would
be just this amount they could make it into what
we all would like it to be; but I could not recommend
that course to the Cabinet, not because I distrusted
Thomson their proposal was a legitimate proposal;
they did not come under-handed but because I gen-
uinely feel that if you can tell me that something I
am running badly can make money if you take it
over from nm, it is my duty to see whether I cannot
revamp my ideas, do better than I am doing now,
bring in new people, if needs be, to reorganise for
me with my acquiescence and my understanding of
what they are doing, and do for myself with my own
enterprise what you say you would take from me and
do. And it was on those grounds that I did not re-
commend to the Cabinet that we should consider the
Thomson offer to take over the station, because I
genuinely felt then this was only a year or so ago -
as I do not know that with proper procedures I do not
mean that the procedures in force now are in any
way improper but with more streamlining of
managerial and other procedures, and without the
financial incubus that now exists on the Corporation,
it could make money.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On a point of order,
will the Minister say how much Thomson offered?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR:Icannotsaythis because we
never got far enough to talk firm business, but I
can definitely say that we recognized that $2 million
E.C. would be what they would themselves inject
into it if they had it. That is as much as I can say,
but they never said they would give us $3 million or
$4 million or $5 million or $1 1/2 million as the
case may be, because we never got that far with
them. That is the position as far as that is concerned.

Let me deal now with another point. This might
be a digression and I do not want to digress. Hon.
members, particularly the hon. junior member for
St. Peter who appears to be well informed, much


.better than Iam, on the inner workings of C.B.C. says
that the Minister does not have confidence in this or
that member of the Board. I do not know that this
is so because the Minister has never said this to me;
and so far as I know the Minister, and I have been
able to assess his work as a colleague, I have found
him to be a very straightforward and conscientious
person and Minister of Government, and I have never
seen anything of him which would give me the im-
pression that he would be motivated by petty spite or
by pique or anything like this.

I must also make a comment on some remarks
made or hints dropped about the former General
Manager.

Mr. A. N. Forde was my Permanent Secretary
for about three years. I have found him to be a con-
scientious and very distinguished and able Civil
Servant. I do not know why he requested to come back
into the General Service. It would be improper for
me to ask Mr. Forde why, and it would not occur to
me to ask anybody else. (Mr. Hinds: We asked him.)
But I would like to say this: I have reason to believe
that the officer in question will not regret the request
he made, because his services are so competent and
so distinguished. I am saying this genuinely because
he has served me as a Permanent Secretary, and he
served me well, and that is not intended to be a
reflection on the other two who has each of them been
good and excellent in their own way; but I think I
had a longer time with him of the three I have had,
and I can say for him Lhat I am confident that his
services to this Government will continue in a quite
high and exalted sphere, and therefore I say that I
personally would not trouble about his leaving C.B.C.
It may turn out to be for his best. I am one of those
people, Mr. Chairman, if I may speak personally, who
never think anything a disaster. This will certainly
turn out not to be a misfortune for him, and as soon
as the Public Service Commission is ready to make
the change or whatever it is or the adjustment,
this will be done, and everybody, I think, will be
happy, and the officer will come in for deserved
congratulations from all and sundry. I need say no
more; so you need not think that a disaster has taken
place.

It was also said among other things that there is
a proposal that Mr. X, calling him by name, is to be
the new General Manager of C.B.C. This again I
do not know to be a fact. I heard it for the first time
in here and I am neither in a position to deny nor to
affirm it. I merely say that I do not know this to be
a fact, but I am a little doubtful about its authentici-
ty not that the hon. junior member for St. Peter
may not have heard this. I have no doubt the hon.
member heard it, but I doubt whether this would be
so, quite frankly, and I would not say anything more
about it because since I have not heard it and it has
not been drawn to my attention officially, I ought not
to make any comment on it except to say I am not
aware of it.

One last point in this section of my reply. I do not
think it is true that anybody who works at C.B.C. is






1565


tn any way inhibited or brow-beated or terrorised. It
was said on the opposite side today and yesterday
that with respect to the protest march which the
Barbados Labour Party organised and held, in-
structions were given to C.B.C. authorities not to
televise it. Again I must say that I do not know this
to be a fact.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, on a
point of order, will the Minister make enquiries then
of his successor, and ask if Senator Sandiford him-
self did not telephone and use the words "so-called
march" in connection with the incident. And if he
wants another example of which he may know of
interference, is it not a fact that in London during
the C.B.C. coverage of the Independence celebra-
tions, the News Editor was criticised for putting me
on the air, after the Prime Minister had spoken to
say that Independence Day would be 30th November,
and I then went on the air and said there would be
elections before? I suggest to the Minister that the
News Editor was criticised in London for saying that.
Those are two examples of interference which per-
haps he would like to comment on.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I would investigate both of
these. Again the second one was without my know-
ledge, and I really mean this. I am hearing that as
well for the first time.
3.30 p.m.

I will investigate that. I have a point of view on
these matters which I hope, and so far as I know, is
shared by my colleagues, but if it is not shared by
them it is still my point of view, and it is too bad
for them, I would not myself be a party to any
manoeuvre which would make it appear to the
Opposition, the general public, or to anybody, that I
am afraid of free expression of opinion. I firmly
believe that if you have an argument and you ad-
vance an argument, it is my duty to demolish it, if I
can. If I cannot demolish it, that is too bad for me.
I would not be a party to anybody saying: "You cannot
do that" and "You cannot do this."

I have had, while Iwas at C.B.C. myself, to make
one decision. It was a difficult decision at the time
and for which I could not be so accused, but I made
that decision on the ground that when a Minister I
cannot remember the circumstances, but I remem-
ber the occasion goes on the air, he is making a
Ministerial Statement, and if he wishes to do a Party
political broadcast, he must say that it is a Party
political broadcast, and the Rules of the Party politi-
cal broadcast, if they exist, would have to apply. I
ruled that a Ministerial Statement does notnecessa-
rily call for an Opposition reply. That was all. I
remember that occasion when I felt that way, and I
still feel so. I honestly doubt whether my colleague
would do this thing that he is accused of. I doubt
whether he would ring up and say: "Do not do this
or that." Anyhow, I will investigate that for my own
satisfaction. This purely internal point was a di-
gression germaine to the issue,butnotas significant
as the other section of my reply. I


The hon. senior member for Christ Church ad-
aressed some questions to me -four of them which
I shall now try my best to answer. The first is: Does
the Thomson organisation pay for any of the staff
resident in Barbados and working at C. B. C., and, if
so, how many? The answer to that, so far as I am
aware, is "No". I do not think, unless this has
happened recently, that there is any staff working at
C.B.C. whose wages and salaries are not a charge on
the revenue of C.B.C. I think that everybody who
works there is paid out of the revenues of the Cor-
poration, and that nobody works there whom Thom-
son pays.

It did happen, however, that in 1966 when Thom-
son was asked by the Corporation to do a review of
the Corporation's finances, Thomson did send down
one of its senior accountants, a Mr. Drew, I think his
name wis. (An hon. member: "Mr. Drew.") I thank
the hon. member. Mr. Drew was sent down to work
with the Corporation for three weeks or a month to
go through this whole financial exercise, and in that
instance the Thomson organisation by whom he was
employed met the cost of his being here. I cannot
readily recall any other person. Mr. Vance, of course,
was the substantive General Manager, and his salary
was paid in the ordinary way by the Corporation.
Mr. Cordean came here in 1963 or 1964 for six
months before the television was set up, and there was
a Mr. Williams, who, I believe, was an engineer, who
came here for four or five weeks before the Tele-
vision Station was opened. All of their expenses, so
far as I recall and know, were a charge on C.B.C.'s
revenues.

The next question is: Has N.B.C. withdrawn fro-n
the original Consortium? If that is so, was there any
agreement with respect to the fees to be received
by the other members of the Consortium and with
respect to the services to be performed by other
members of the Consortium? Now the Consortium
with which the Government of Barbados negotiated
for the establishment of the Radio Service dissolved,
or was dissolved, within six months of the establish-
ment of the Radio Service. It appears that the National
Broadcasting Company and the Thomson Enterprises
had some internal differences of opinion among
themselves it was nothing to do with the Barbados
operation, but with other operations and decided
that they should break their partnership.

Now, I am speaking purely as a layman here, and
I must not be taken to be dogmatically laying down
the law on any matter pertaining to this. Before the
Consortium had broken up we had, of course, entered
into an agreement with them for the establishment of
radio, and a Letter of Intent was despatched and
signed on behalf of the Barbados Government and
acknowledged by them, and the agreement entered
into for the establishment of radio. Six months after
radio was established, the Consortium broke up. The
Government and the Corporation had then to decide,
having to embark on television, who was to be the
Advisory, or Consultant or Managing agents for the
Television Service. The legal and juridical question






1566


also arises this would be of interest to the hon.
senior member for Christ Church and the hon. senior
member for St. Thomas it cannot be debated here,
but I think it will arise as to whether when a Con-
sortium with whom you signed an agreement breaks
up whether your agreement would be in force. I am
not pronouncing on it, but this would be a legal ques-
tion entirely out of the scope of my own interest here
this afternoon.

If the hon. members already know at least,
from what they have said they appear to know very
well the outline of the agreement with Thomson's
the phasing out of the Managing Agents fees from 15,
10, 7, 5 vanishing into nothing at the end of the tenth
year.

Mr. Chairman, I am going to say something here
which will appear very strange for a Minister of the
Government to say. I think that anybody in this Island
would be properly justified in criticising the Gov-
ernment for having entered upon what looks like a
draining operation on the revenues of the Caribbean
Broadcasting Corporation. You could say "Why have
you been so foolish as to enter into the kind of
arrangement which gives your Managing Agents what
we might call the cream of your revenue, and in res-
pect of which, if you do not have to make that dispo-
sition of your revenue, you might not be in such a bad
situation today?" This is a legitimate query, but I will
tell you this. We quite frankly entered into this, be-
cause at the time when we were setting up radio
the Government did not feel I do not like really
to put such an important point in a negative way in
other words, the Government felt that there was
genuinely some experience to be gained by having
that Consortium as Consultant Agents. We felt so
and we went into it with our eyes open.

We did say: "This is the kind of agreement, and
although we do not like it, we are prepared to enter
into it, because what we think we will get from !his
arrangement will more than outweigh the amounts
we have to pay out in the first few years."
3.43 p.m.

That is why we genuinely thought at the time
that if Thomson were going to get 15% of the gross
revenue, they would train all our staff for nothing and
when I say Thomson, I mean the Consortium -
and they will put quantities of expertise at our dis-
posal, and we will get in exchange for whatever it
is we are paying, not only the actual people who are
working at C.B.C., but people even outside the em-
ployment of C.B.C., trained in skills which they did
not then have and which nobody in this Island could
provide. We thought that it was a quid pro quo We
were not selling out the interest of the people of
Barbados. Nobody who knows the Prime Minister,
despite what you may think of him as a political op-
ponent, would believe that he would sit idly by and
allow an arrangement to be negotiated inwhich Bar-
bados was giving and not receiving. Apart from his
robust commonsense, his temperament would not
allow him to be a party to an agreement which, on
the face of it, had nothing in it for Barbados. But we


did think at the time that it was worthwhile employ-
ing a Consortium to advise and consult with, be-
cause a Consortium, in our view, if made up of radio
and television organizations, would be able to put
at our disposal expertise which we do not have.

I must confess to the Committee quite frankly
that we have been disappointed in this, and if you
wish to take it out on us because we were so silly
as to enter into that kind of agreement in which we
gave all and got very little in return, I think you would
be entitled to take it out on us for that, because it
has not turned out as we have anticipated. On the
other hand, you should also know this, that from
1966, although he might have been doing it before,
but I recall from 1966 or, let us say, from the end
of 1965, the Prime Minister had been continually
and repeatedly saying this agreement will have to be
re-negotiated because no self-respecting Govern-
ment or community could remain, or could be expect-
ed to remain, satisfied with an arrangement which
drains money out and which, in turn, is not matched
by services commensurate with the money. Thathas
been the Prime Minister's view, it is our view and,
in fairness to Thomson, when this was drawn to
their attention, they have said that they were pre-
pared to re-negotiate the whole business and come
to some reasonable arrangement. I hope that
the people who are responsible for making the new
agreement when it is made will interpret it to be
reasonably in our view and not in theirs necessarily
alone. We are prepared to come to some reasonable
arrangement which not only scales down considerably
the management and consultant fees, but will also
take care of the other end or the other aspect of the
thing which I think ought to have been done, that is,
to take our own people and train them at their ex-
pense.

Now, Sir, the hon. senior member for St. Thomas
made the point I cannot deny it because it is true -
that the courses which members of the Corporation's
Staff have gone up to attend Mr. Rudder, I cannot
remember all of them, but those courses have either
been given to them by the Commonwealth or various
agencies, the Colonial Office, A.D.M., Science, Tech-
nology, this, that and the other. I believe, however,
that in relation to Mr. Forde, the General Manager,
just before he took up his post with the Company,
Thomson still made it possible for him to have a
managerial production course. I think that that may be
an exception but as far as the others are concerned,
other agencies made those courses and visits avail-
able to them. I want to be emphatic on this. I do not
want members of the Committee to feel that we have
not been speaking sharply and telling the Managing
agents of our dissatisfaction; they know of it; but I
still think that it would be an advantage for us to re-
tain the connection and see to it thatwe get value for
our money, and best of all, to see that the money
which we pay them represents the money paid only
for services rendered. That is the position. It is per-
fectly reasonably possible to retain the Managing
agents and Consultants because you do need them, I
think, to some extent,and to say to them; "For any
single service you render us we are prepared to give






1567


you a flat rate on everything we earn particularly
with some of the air time we seller rather, some of
our sales revenue as has been got through our own
exertions and not by yours and other agents may have
to be paid as well." Therefore, hon. members oppo-
site are on perfectly good grounds with us and we are
at one in this. If you tell us to good ahead, hurry and
re-negotiate this whole agreement with them, we are
ready to do it and we have started on it. We are pre -
pared to drive the hardest possible bargain consi-
tent with the efficiency of the operation and we are
not prepared to let the old system continue; but I do
not want hon. members to feel that we did this because
we wished to harm the country or because we were a
set of nincompoops. We did it because, at the time,
we genuinely thought that there were some expertise,
some skills to be acquired which these people could
give and that since we cannot reckon skills in terms
of dollars, if you have two or three or four pro-
gramme producers, half a dozen engineers and two
or three good TV make up artists, if you have a whole
range of people trained, their work in the radio and
television services for years to come, would bring
in much more than the outlay of Managing agencies.
3.50 p.m.


This has not materialised and I quite frankly
tell the House that this has been a disappointment
and I think we can be charged if a charge is going
to be brought for not having enough foresight to see
that it would turn out this way; but it is not going to
turn out this way again because we are negotiating for
these things.

Now, in case hon. members think that I am
dodging the particular issue and clouding important
points under a mass of verbiage, I want to say that
this is not so. I wish to come to the point whether
there was an agreement with the Consortium- or any
part of it for television. There is not. If by agreement
you mean a written document signed by two parties
to a contract, the answer is "no", but there is an
understanding which is regarded not only in discuss -
ions but in the files, that after the Consortium broke
up there was the definite understanding that we ask
the other half the Thomson part to see us through
with the establishment of television. There is that
understanding. It would be unimportant for me to
make any comment on the legal and judicial con-
clusions of this.



Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, on a point of
order. I do not want him to give us any pronounce-
ment on the legal situation; I want to know what is
the factual situation. Does the Consortium get any
proportion of their revenue derived from :he adver-
tising revenue from television?


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Yes, they do. That is why I
say that we are dissatisfied with this and we are
negotiating over the whole situation. Therefore, you
can see that I am not hiding anything from the hon.
members.


S Mr. HINDS: I wonder if the Minister would be
Disposed to ask the Thomson group to give him free
services for, say, one year.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Hon. members can take this
assurance. As far as this whole thing is concerned
everybody, from the Prime Minister to the people
involved in the day-to-day operations of C.B.C., is at
one in getting the best possible terms for this thing
and in cutting down and cloaking off this drain of
revenue. Everybody feels this way about it.

Mr. J. M. G. ADAMS: If the Minister will give
way. Can we be assured by the Minister that no further
money will be paid to Thomson at all until a new
agreement is negotiated? Just as in the case you
make retroactive increases to workers andyou make
retroactive contracts, cannot you state that nothing
be paid to Thomson until new agreements are nego-
tiated?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Well, I will promise the hon.
member this. I will talk over his suggestion, but I
cannot say that because it seems to me that there
will be legal implications. I do not know. But I shall
certainly pass this onto the appropriate quarters. It
can well be I do not know if it is so that the
Corporation could have reached independently a
judgment when I say a judgment I mean a thinking
on this matter and could have decided that. This
can be the case.

Mr. HINDS: Can the Minister say if the solicitors
on behalf of the Thomson groupwere writing to the
Corporation?

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I believe that this is so. But
after all, let us be frank. It would be wrong for the
Committee to get the impression I certainly
did not intend that they should that although we
have very important points to be ironed out, the
Thomson people are sharking us or that they are
unwilling to reason or negotiate with us. They are
willing to negotiate and I have every confidence that
we are going to get the best possible deal when this
whole matter is being negotiated with them.

I am convinced of this but, as a matter of fact,
they have recently said this. This is not a secret.
Before I go further, the hon. member in an inter-
jection asked me whether the Thomson solicitors had
written and I said that this could be so. I am advised
that no solicitors have written the Corporation on
behalf of the Consortium.

On the last occasion when the Prime Minister
spoke with a representative of Thomson, the first and
perhaps the only point which the Prime Minister put
and he put it bluntly and directly was, "What
services are you prepared to render us for any
money at all that we may agree to give you?" The
reply of the gentleman was, "It was nota question of
what services; it is that you have not been getting our
services because we did not think that we were
needed." I do not think that the Prime Minister fell
for that but the reply was, "We always have more







1568


services than you think you are getting but you never
asked us and we do not think that we were wanted,
but now you have let us know that you want us to help
train people and by expertise and things at your dis -
.posal, we are prepared to do this."

Well, the Government of Barbados is not going
to refuse assistance or help from anybody, but we
certainly are not going to take that assistance at the
old terms. That is why I say that the whole Committee
is at one in this matter. I would like to pause here
now and see if hon. members would remind me of
anything which I forgot because I really cannot
remember everything that has been asked me.

Mr. J.M. G. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, there are so
many things shown to light this afternoon that it seems
to me bad taste for me to raise some of the questions
which had been raised with some heat yesterday.
Hon. members on this side are seriously concerned
with the form of the Accounts. We really are because
the Act proposes the accounting and proposes a
Secretary to the Board. Perhaps we are not paying
enough attention to the Act and its requirements when
these Accounts are submitted to us.

I imagine that there are good accounting explana-
tions as to why there are variations in the figures
for 1965 in the Second and Third Annual Reports.
But there can be no doubt at all that the Accounts as
laid in the House do not conform ito Section 18 of the
Act which requires that they show the different
operations of the different branches of C.B.C., and
also, Mr. Chairman, nobody showsv Profit and Loss
Accounts in which $100,000 or some such figures is
paid to Thomson without revealing that in the
Accounts. If you did not know that, there is no way of
finding it out from the things in that Report.
4.00 p.m.

If you do not know that, there is no way of finding
out from the Third Annual Report. Iam informedthat
these figures for income in the Third Annual Report
are net of what Thomson has got already, and that,
Mr. Chairman, is not proper accounting procedure.
These Accounts could not possibly stand upunder the
Companies Act, and the hon. member must understand
we were not just being fractious; this is something
that looks to us like fraud, because itlooks to us like
an attempt to hide from us.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: If the hon. member would
give way......

Mr. St. JO-HN: On a point of order, before the hon.
member replies, we do not see any charge of interest
as against the revenue for the year, and one cannot in
our submission derive a true picture of the operational
loss if at least the Bank charges are not charged.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: All of this is so well taken by
me that Iwant to disclose something now which I could
not even on pain of death disclose last night. When the
hon. member made this point about the change in
figures in the Third Annual Report, he did have me
genuinely upset, and he would never know how upset


I was. I was on the point of halting the Committee's
proceedings then and having a Cabinet meeting this
morning, and before I summoned the Assistant Finan-
cial Secretary in the first instance, I withdrew from
the Chamber and went behind the Speaker's Chair,
and I transferred from the Second Annual Report the
gross figures to the comparative column of the Third
Annual Report to find that by transferring the gross
figures, I got out the same result, and then it occurred
to me that the change in the figures had been made de-
liberately, I say "deliberately", but I do not mean
feloniously or anything like that in accordance with
some accounting procedure which I personally could
not understand. I went into it further and I drew hon.
members' strictures to the proper authorities. The
point is well taken and there is an undertaking which
I firmly give now that the Accounts will be submitted
- I will not say in their proper form because I cannot
admit that they have been submitted in an improper
form but will be submitted in ample form in accor-
dance with what the law requires. I cannot give any
further undertaking than that, but the hon. member's
point was well taken and did have me worried, but I
have discovered that there has been nothing improper,
that it was just a variation in accounting procedure
which, shall I say,accounted for this. Iam not making
a pun. I understand it now, the hon. member himself
understands it and we will do it more fully in the next
one.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I am al-
most tempted to rise and ask the Minister if there is
any criticism which we made which he thinks is un-
justified, because he has agreed with every single
criticism that certainly I have made.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Yes, there are some. All the
criticisms which were criticisms of persons and
which in my view did tend to denigrate them. I think
if we could separate all that, as I have tried to do in
my attitude to this, we would have hada most perfect
debate, and it would be the most instructive debate I
have ever participated in in my thirteen years in this
House. I have really enjoyed it apart from that, and I
would wish hon. members opposite in future to con-
tinue to make the most searching scrutiny but to leave
out personalities, because the people are not here, and
what is the use of working with them, anyhow?

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, if the
Minister is going to have these more ample Accounts
submitted, I think he appreciated that the Opposition
must have come into the House feeling that Thomson
is a part of the reason why C.B.C. is losing money,
and when you see Accounts in which Thomson pay-
ments have been excluded, it must make us highly
suspicious.

Now Mr. Chairman, we do not want these more
arnple Accounts for the sake of coming in here to make
more criticism. We just want them because this is $2
million. This is genuinely the biggest piece of the
capital vote for last year, and we really want to see
whether it is true the radio service is making money
and the television losing it; we want to see the in-
terest rates; we want to see what Thomson gets every







1569


-year. If the Government knows that Thomson pulled.
the wool over their eyes, why didn't they want the Op-
position to see how far down the wool was pulled? All
this should be in the Accounts.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: If the hon. member would give
way, we do not mind you knowing or thinking tha. wool
had been pulled over our eyes. We certainly worried
about your saying that it was steel wool.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: I would not know too
much about steel wool in this case, but nevertheless,
Mr. Chairman, even though as I say all has been
sweetness and light, the Opposition cannot say that,
because the Government admits to having made a mis -
take, and that because Government knows it did wrong
because the Government did not have the expertise, we
agree with what has happened at C. B. C. At some
future stage when the new agreement comes to be ne-
gotiated, I dare say we will vote for that; but we must
as a mark of our disapproval for all the years when
something that should never have come about was go -
ing on, continue to oppose this Resolution. I appreciate
the Leader of the House's tact, his honesty and the very
capable way in which he has made his reply. I appre-
ciate the fact that he evidently has got the hon. mem-
bers on his side under control today and the things
that they were shouting us down for yesterday, they
are sitting down and reading their magazines quiet-
ly today instead of shouting us down again. We
appreciate all that, Mr. Chairman, and I hope the
Minister understands there is no rancour inourvote;
but if they had asked anybody with real broadcasting
expertise in 1962 they would not have paid Thomson
for anything.

There is just one further point about training
facilities. Do not expect much in the way of them from
Thomson. Mr. Chairman, excuse my beingpersonal,
but when in 1962/1963 I heard something about
Thomson and training facilities, I knew that Thom-
son has no training facilities worth the name by the
broadcasting standards of Great Britain. Nobody
would go to Thomson to learn anything about b-road-
casting. I am not saying that the people who work there
are inefficient, but the people who work there have been
trained in films at the B. B. C. or perhaps in Redif-
fusion or by the I. T. A's own training school in Wem-
bley. Nobody would set out to join the Thomson
organisation to learn about television or radio.

Mr. HINDS: Just one small point, Mr. Chairman.
I think the Ministerhasansweredmost of the points,
but I did ask about the letter of Intent between
Thomson and the Government, and I think the hon.
senior member for Bridgetown did Lable some
questions, and I am sure the Minister would be
willing to let us hear the replies to them.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: As regards the questions
asked by the hon. senior member for Bridgetown, I
am not trying to get out of anything. I have the replies
here and they are numerous. Would you like me to
instruct the Clerk to have them duplicated and handed
around? You would not therefore press me to answer
them now, would you?


Mr. HINDS: What about the letter of Intent?


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: I think I did say that we have
on our files copies of the Letter of Intent which was
drawn up and signed between us and the Consortium
at the beginning of radio. If you are referring to
radio, the answer is "yes", but not for television.

The question that the Resolution do now pass was
put and resolved in the affirmative, the Committee di-
viding as follows:


AYES: Hon. J. C. TUDOR; Hon, G. G. FERGUSSON
Hon. C. E. TALMA; Hon. N. W. BOXILL; Mr. LOWE;
Mr. CORBIN; Mr. SERGEANT; Mr. WEEKS and
Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS 9.

NOES: Mr. HINDS; Mr. J. M. G. ADAMS; Mr.
SMiTH and Mr. St. JOHN 4.
4.10 p.m.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, Ibegto move
that Your Honour do now report the passing of one
Resolution in Committee.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division, and Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair
and reported accordingly.


Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this Resolution be now read a first time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this Resolution be now read a second time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: 1 beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this Resolution be now agreed to.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.



SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE 1967 68 No.67

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day stands
in the name of the Hon Leader of the House, and it is
to move the passing of a Resolution to approve the
loan by the Government to the Caribbean Broadcasting
Corporation of the sum of $2,100,000 to be borrowed
from the Bank of Nova Scotia for revising the financial
structure of the Corporation.

Hon. J. C. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, what, of course,
we did in Committee of Supply was the appropriation
We now have to provide the legislative guarantee for







1570


the money. I really would have nothing new to say in
introducing this and, therefore, I beg to move that
this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.


The question was put and resolved in the affirmative,
the House dividing as follows:


Hon. J. C. TUDOR; Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON;
ion. C. E. TALM4; Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS;
Hon. N. W. BOXILL; Mr. LOWE; Mr. CORBIN;
Mr. SERGEANT and Mr. WEEKS 9

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, the hon.
junior member for St. Thomas voted "No" whenthe
voices were taken, and I heard him vote "Aye" when
the division was taken.

Hon. N. W. BOXILL: I was reading a magazine.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, on a point
of order. I call on you and the Clerk to certify what
voice was taken. All of us heard the word "No" coming
from down there. He has just said that he was read-
ing a magazine, and did not know what was happening.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that I cannot detect
the voice of one hon. member for St. Thomas from
another. (LAUGHTER).

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: On a point of order, Mr.
Speaker. Are you inviting me to vote "Ayes"? Ican
assure you, Mr. Speaker, that although I am tot say-
ing I said "No" when the voices were taken, I heard
the voices of the hon. senior and the hon. junior mem-
bers for St. Thomas. I heard both members for St.
Thomas say "No".

Mr. SPEAKER: It would have been remarkable if
those hon. members voted in unison.

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Except on a matter of
pensions, perhaps.

Mr. SPEAKER: I have sought the information of
the Deputy Clerk of the Table, and he cannot help me
as to where the sound of the voices of "No" came
from. Therefore the hon. senior member for St.
Thomas......

Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, on a point
of Order. Can you remind me of what the Resolution
is?
Mr. SPEAKER: I would ask Mr. Clerk to remind
any hon. member who has not yet voted of what has
been taking place in the House today.

Mr. DEPUTY CLERK: It has been moved and se-
conded that a Resolutionto approve the loan by Gov-
ernment to the Caribbean Broadcasting Corporation
of the sum of $2,100,000 to be borrowed from the Bank
of Nova Scotia for revising the financial structure of
the Corporation do now pass. A division was called
for and hon. members voted as follows:-


AYES: Hon. J.C.TUDOR, Hon. IG. G. FERGUSSON,
Hon. C.E.TALMA, Hon. A.DaC.EDWARDS, Hon. N.W.
BOXILL, Mr. LOWE, Mr. CORBIN, Mr. SERGEANT,
Mr. WEEKS, 9.

NOES: Mr. J. M. G. M. ADAMS, Mr. SMITH, Mr.
St. JOHN 3.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am informed that 9 hon. mem-
bers have voted in the affirmative, and 3 hon. mem-
bers have voted in the negative. I now declare the
"Ayes" have it, and accordingly I declare this Re-
solution duly to have been passed.
4.20 p.m.

DAIRY INDUSTRY (REGULATION AND CONTROL)
BILL, 1968.

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day stands
in the name of the hon. senior member for St. Andrew,
the Hon. Minister of Agriculture, Labour and Nation-
al Insurance:- To move the second reading of a Bill
to provide for the regulation and control of the pro-
duction and distribution of milk and milk products in
the Island, to establish a Milk Advisory Board and for
matters connected therewith and incidental thereto.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, before the Hon. Min-
ister starts, I am appealing to him and to the Govern-
ment, that this is a very controversial Bill and it is
going to take us until morning. It would therefore be
a first-class idea if the Minister would postpone it
until another time. Most hon. members have to be out
to night, and it would be a good idea if the Minister
would consider postponing it and allowing us to get
out. Prisoners sometimes get a chance to go out.
(LA UGHTER)

Mr. SPEAKER: I am surprised to hear from an
experienced hon. member of this House thathe has to
go out when there are parliamentary duties to be at-
tended to.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, while I
would like to accommodate hon. members, especially
my friend, the hon. senior member for St. Joseph, I
would like to state that there are certain proposals
in this Bill which it would be necessary to have im-
plemented within the next few weeks for the protection
of all concerned in the Dairy Industry. That is why we
are hoping to deal with this Bill today. As a matter of
fact, Ido not think that the Bill in itself is controver-
sial. There may be certain controversial things with
respect to the Milk Plant which I am prepared to deal
with today. The Bill provides for our getting clean
milk, that people should be licensed sellers of milk,
licensed farmers and so on. I cannot see how this Bill
in itself could be controversial; what is controversial
is the running of the Milk Plant. This Bill is for the
purpose of seeing to it that good and clean milk is
provided in the country. (Mr. SMITH: This Bill will
make it clean now?) The hon. senior member for St.
Joseph knows that I always give him as much co-
operation as possible, but this is one reason on which I
am asking him to sympathise with the position andto
reciprocate. As I always give him one hundred per









eent co-operation, I would like him to give me one
hundred per cent co-operation in this matter now.

Mr. SPEAKER: To give you the co-operation
which you allege you give him.

Mr. SMITH: I will give him by talkinguntil morn-
ing.

Hon. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, if the hon.
member so desires, I cannot stop him. He has free-
dom of speech in here.

Mr. HINDS: On a point of order. Can the Minis-
ter tell us if there is anything controversial in the
Bill that it has to come into operation from tomor-
row?

Mr. SPEAKER: That certainly is not a point of or-
der. It is so far from it that it is almost far from the
truth. (Laughter).

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, sometime
in 1965, there was an agreement signed between
Messrs Northern Dairies Limited of the United King-
dom, the New Zealand Dairy Production and Market-
ing Board and the Government of Barbados with
regard to the establishment and operation of a Dairy
Plant in this Island. There were certain relevant terms
of the agreement which are for consideration here
now, and the terms were as follows: that the Com-
pany should be licensed as an approved processor of
milk and dairy products and to limit the award of such
a licence solely to the Company for a period of at least
ten years, and that the premises should be registered.
I refer now to the premises of all persons who are
dealing in milk.

Mr. SPEAKER: Notwithstanding that it has not
been drawn to my attention, there does not appear to
be a quorum present, and unless it is drawn to my
attention,; that a quorum is pre sent this sitting will be
adjourned.
Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, Iam sug-
gesting that the Bell be rung inasmuch as there is no
quorum.

Mr. SPEAKER: I thank the hon. member for help-
ing the Chair. Let the Bell be rung.


On the Bell being rung,


Mr. SPEAKER: I observe that there is now a
quorum. Let the hon. Minister proceed with moving
the second reading of this Bill.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to move that this
Bill be now read a second time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. SPEAKER: The question is that this Bill......

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, I see thatyou are as
anxious as the Hon. Minister on the other side to have


this legislation passed, but we, on this side, cannot
allow it to be passed like that because, as we said on
the last occasion when we had a debate on the Milk
Industry in this Island, we were as anxious as the
Government to do everything in our power to estab-
lish an industry such as the milk industry in Barba-
dos ; but we were dissatisfied with the manner of
operation of the Milk Plant, and, in particular, with
the powers that the Government had to control the
operators of the concession which was granted to them.
By this Bill, the Minister seeks to arm himself with
conditional powers and, in particular, the most mate-
rial aspect of the Bill is Part 5 because the other
parts of the Bill seem to me to cover the ground which
has already been covered by the Dairies Act which is
an existing piece of legislation.



Sir, we, on this side, are still not satisfied that
all the problems and all the defects both in the dis-
tribution and the manufacturing of milk in Barbados
have been remedied. As far as we know, there is still
a tremendous amount of fear among the milk pro-
ducers who were encouraged by the Government to em -
bark on relatively large sums of capital expenditure
in buying a new type of cow, a supposedly high milk-
producing animal, on the understanding that all the
milk produced by them would be bought by the Pine
Hill Dairy.
4.30 p.m.

There is still fear in their minds that as soon
as the tourist season has ended it ends on the
15th April the Pine Hill Dairy will revert to the
system of quotas. I think an assurance at this stage
from the Hon. Minister that in the event of this Bill
being passed that regulations and orders will be
made......

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: If the hon. member
would give way?

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member has given way.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: The hon. member will
remember that I said when there was objection to
doing this Bill at this stage that there was a certain
amount of urgency about it. The hon. member will
know that there is provision in the Bill which gives
the Minister the authority to compel the dairy plant
to take whatever milk is produced in the country and
offered for sale to the dairy plant provided that it is
of a satisfactory quality.


This is the main reason that I want to do the Bill
today because I am aware that the tourist season will
soon be over and that the milk used by the tourists
will be in surplus at the plant, but at the same time
we are now encouraging the growth of the dairy in-
dustry. Let me say here categorically that there will
be no more quotas; the milk plant will have to take the
milk. That is why I asked to have the Bill done today.

Mr. SPEAKER: Point of elucidation made. Let
the hon. member proceed.






1572


Mr. St. JOHN: You see that if the Hon. Minister.
was not trying to snap the Opposition just now, he
would have made his normal second reading speech
and, may be, we would not have talked at all. But he
was trying to snap us. The Opposition is very grate-
ful for the assurance given by the Minister because
that would alleviate some of the fears which have
been expressed by these people who have indulged in
this expansion as a result of the persuasion and
encouragement of the Government.

The second point is that it has been my experience
here in the Law Courts......

Mr. SPEAKER: Is it that the member is going to
meet here in the Law Courts?

Mr. St. JOHN: My experience here in Barbados.

Mr. SPEAKER: Ahl Yes! I did not hear those two
words.

Mr. St. JOHN: I do not know what has happened
today. Perhaps sitting in Committee for such a long
time must have caused it.


Mr. SPEAKER: It does not appear as if there is
a quorum. (A PAUSE) There is now. Let the hon.
member proceed.

Mr. St. JOHN: Yes, Sir. Iwould like to know what
new machinery and additional staff the Department of
Science and Agriculture -

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I would like to be ina
position to reply to the point made by the hon. mem-
ber. I did not hear the last point made by the hon.
member and I ask him to repeat his last point.

Mr. St. JOHN: I will repeat it, Sir. One of the
problems we have been hearing is that the Govern-
ment Chemist and the Department of Science and
Agriculture have been clamouring for a long time
that they do not have sufficient staff as well as
adequate apparatus and machinery together with pro -
per regulations and standards for testing milk. No
doubt, the Minister will have the power to make
regulations but that Department claims to be under
staffed and ill-equipped.

I would like to know from the Hon. Minister if he
has any plans, and how far forward these plans are
for providing this necessary machinery so that the
Bill and regulations made thereunder may be proper -
ly enforced. This is an important aspect of this matter
because it is useless assuming the Minister has the
power and the laws and regulations, and not having
the machinery to enforce these provisions.

This, Sir, is the secondpoint. We notice too, even
up to now, that the Pine Hill Dairy is still saying that
it is unable to sell to 250,000 people thirteen thousand
pounds of milk per day, which is the local production.
Up to now, there has been no price reduction to the
consumer, and they have not effectively answered
the charges made by the Opposition on thelast occa-


sion when we had a debate on this matter that one of
the reasons why they have been unable to sell the
milk is because the price was beyond the reach of the
general body of consumers in Barbados.

They still continue with the uneconomic method
of selling milk in cartoons that they themselves claim
cost six cents per cartoon. Perhaps, the Hon. Minister
would be able to tell us what further discussion he
has had and what efforts have been made to help re-
duce the cost because when one realises that they sell
this milk in quarts, that is three cents a pint for the
cartoon alone, and thexe cartoons are thrown away
immediately after they are used. We understand that
they have pursued the policy of putting the larger
proportion of the locally produced milk in the ste-
rilised form amd selling it in the sterilised form.
Perhaps, we can get a progress report on that.

Lastly, on this point of the price of milk, as we
understand it now, the Pine Hill Dairy has been
guaranteed a monopoly on the importation of evapora-
ted milk in Barbados. The distributors -both whole -
salers and retailers claim that notwithstanding the
fact that the Pine Hill Dairy has been granted a
monopoly, the price to the wholesaler has been
greater than previously when there was no monopoly
granted to any individual commission agent in Bar-
bados. And what is more, the facilities which used
to be granted by way of credit by the commission
agents is now being removed by the Pine Hill Dairy
and it is now making more per case of milk than any
wholesaler merchant ever made before, and the re-
tailer now is making less per case.

We quite realise that largely due to the fault of
the Pine Hill Dairy itself, its first operations resulted
in a deficit to the extent of some $180,000, but what
we do not feel is correct and justified is that the Hon.
Minister should allow the Pine Hill Dairy to force
Government into a position where Government must
condone the Pine Hill Dairy charging an exorbitant
price so as to recoup its losses in one year. They
should spread the recoupment of these losses over
some period of time, remembering how important
milk is as a part of the diet of the community as a whole
and remembering too that with the condition of our
economic structure here, the small shopkeeper bears
in the out-of-crop season a large proportion of the
burden of credit to the consumers at a period of time
when they need the credit most. Now, this has been
a sore point for a long period of time and I would
like the Hon. Minister to tell us what are the plans that
the Government has with respect to it.
4.40 p.m.


The hon. senior member for Bridgetown charged
on the last occasion we had a debate that the Pine
Hill Dairy was making $3 on a case of 14 oz. tins.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order,
Mr. Speaker, the Pine Hill Dairy has never made $3
on a case........

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member has risen on
what or why?






1573


Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I said on appoint of or-
der. The Pine Hill Dairy has never made $3 per case
on any milk imported to this country.

Mr. SPEAKER: Now what is the point of order
-that the speaker has asked me to determine?

Mr. St. JOHN: I have no objection, Sir. I gave
way.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am not concerned with the hon.
member. I am concerned with the Chair.

Mr. St. JOHN: I gave way, Sir. Allowed the hon.
member to interrupt me. I extended that courtesy. I
have seen Your Honour endorse that pattern of conduct
on many occasions.

Mr. SPEAKER: Even when Homer nodded, he
never did it twice.

Mr. St. JOHN: The position is that it may not
have been a point of order, but I gave way. If it is not
$3, tell us how much it is per case, and tell us fur-
ther if it is not more per case than previously was
made by any commission merchant in Bridgetown.
Remember, too, the volume of the turnover that they
have in evaported milk now, because they have a
monopoly of importation which is equal to the total
amount that nine or ten commission agents in the
past used to import, and they used to give credit.
You used to be able to draw it from the wharf, you
did not have to go up to the Pine Hill Dairy, and the
wholesalers did not have to pay cash for it. You are
saving on these costs, and still you are making more
per case.

Those, Sir, are the three basic points. We ob-
viously are in agreement with this, because it is clear
that unless the Government is armed with these po-
wers, the concessionaires with whom they have nego-
tiated, that is Northern Dairies and New Zealand Milk
Marketing Board, intend to hold the consumer in this
country up to ransom, intend to extract as much pro-
fit as they can out of the milk-consuming public, in-
tend to pay the dairy producers of milk in Barbados
as little as possible, and they regard this country
as a basis for experimentation in their new fangled
methods of making condensed milk and evaporated
milk. All three of these things, I think, are clear. Now
the Government has found that they do not have enough
legislative power to deal with them adequately, we on
this side criticised the operation, and we obviously
would have to support any measure now that is design-
ed to give the Government adequate power to deal with
them,

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, if I should say anything
that my colleague has said, it is because I was either
outside or I was not listening. I thought the Minister
in charge of this Bill would have enlightened us on it,
but all he did was to let this House know that this Bill
is going to give us clean milk which makes me feel that
we were getting dirty milk all the time.
Now, Sir, the object of this Bill is to provide for
the regulation and control of the production and dis-


tribution of milk and milk products in the Island with
a view to promoting and expanding the local dairy and
livestock industry and the provision thereby of an
adequate supply of milk and milkproducts of the best
quality at reasonable prices.

The object of the installation of the milk plant was
to promote and expand the local dairy and livestock
industry, but what is worrying me is that if this is the
object of the company, why has the plant got to im-
port evaporated milk into this Island? If they were
importing this evaporated milk for the purpose of
blending it with the other milk to give you a better
quality, I would agree with them. But they are im-
porting milk and robbing the merchants of their com-
mission. They import the milk and either take it to
the Pine Hill Dairy or the merchants have to draw it
from the Port, and I understand that a person would
have to buy 160 cases c. o. d. in order to get a berry.

Before the establishment of a milk plant, the
agents used to import it and distribute itto the mer-
chants who had 90 days grace to pay for it. It was
possible that a merchant with a fast turnover could
sell every case of that milk and have the money in the
Bank, or he might have been able to spend some of it
before the time was due to pay for it. Either because
the Government or the Minister is encouraging it, these
boys have taken it upon themselves to take it com-
pletely out of the hands of the merchants, import it
and compel you to pay cash for it. No business, Mr.
Speaker, can afford to buy goods cash and credit it
out at the same time, because it is bound to go under-
neath. Most of the supplies are credited. You go into
a merchant in Roebuck Street with $200 or $300, pay
for the goods you had the week before and take out
goods for the following week without a penny.
4.50 p.m.

When you compel the merchant to buy it and credit
it at the same time, you are creating a hardship on
both sides: the consumer and the retailer. It is those
people in the country where I belong who are bound
to meet it very hard. These people in the country have
to do the same thing with the small shopkeepers. They
pay for last week's supplies, and they take away this
week's supplies without paying any money for them.

Here it is now, this particular item or com-
modity because the Government has the big stick in
the corner, it is allowing these people to do as they
like. This morning someone telephoned to me and
said that they had increased the price of the milk by
960 per cartoon. That is what I was told this morn-
ing on the telephone. They were toldbytheboys up
there that they had the "okay" from the Ministry.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, on a point
of order. I would like to assure the hon. member that
the Ministry responsible for the control price of
milk is the Ministry of Trade and not the Ministry of
Agriculture.

Mr. SPEAKER: Point of order concisely made.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, onapoint
of order. I should like to point out that the Ministry of






1574


Agriculture did not give the Milk Plant any "okay" to
increase the price of milk.

Mr. SPEAKER: Point of order equally concisely
made. I congratulate both hon. Ministers.

Mr. SMITH: Sir, this will tell you now that the
Milk Plant is the Government, and those two are the
Milk Plant. If they do not know anything about it, and
the merchants have to pay more for the m 1k, then who
is the boss? Who is the Government?

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Onapointoforder, Mr.
Speaker. Milk is controlled and it is on the Scheduled
List, and, unless the Schedule has been changed with
the Order directed, the Price Control Officers have
a right to bring up the Milk Plant, or any other per-
son who increases the price of milk, unless the price
of milk has gone up, been agreed to and published in
the Schedule. No increase prices have been published
in the Schedule by my Ministry, and the Milk Plant, or
any person, selling milk over the price stated in the
Schedule is liable to prosecution. If it is the last thing
I would do, it is to prosecute the Milk Plant, or any-
body else,\who sells milk above the Scheduled price.

Mr. SPEAKER: Point of order made.

Mr. SM TH: If the Minister is tryingto make his
side clear, I cannot blame him, Sir. A particular mer -
chant did not tell me this; so Iwill not call the name
of the firm. I was also told that a particular merchant
sent in the bill that he paid for the milk to the Con-
troller of Supplies. The Minister can investigate that
matter and find out the position. I will tell him the
merchant's name privately. The merchant did not tell
me this,but Iwas told so. Speaking under correction,
he wanted 800 cases, but he was told that he could only
get 700 cases on the C. O. D. basis.

Sir, what is worrying me and will continue to wor-
ry me is what the Milk Processing Plant is really pro -
cessing. If we are still buying the imported milk with
a hardship attached to it before we could get in on
grace-payment, but today we have to pay for it cash or
leave it. What is the purpose of the Milk Plant? What
is it doing for this country? What is it importing all
of this milk to do, Sir? There was a time when the
Plant was processing something like a rock stone in
a tin. That is what I can say. The tin was marked
"Sun Gold", but when it was opened, insteadof a junk
of gold, it was something looking like a rock with many
colours, not even white. If we are to continue pro-
cessing something like that up there, then ask these
people to stop it.

I can remember some time ago, Sir, as you know,
that we used to subsidise pig feed in order to help to
rear more pigs. The present Government stopped that.
When I enquired about the reasons for stopingiit, I was
told by the Minister in charge that they wanted to en-
courage the rearing of more cows; rather than to rear
pigs, we are goingto rearcowsland do all of this pro-
cessing work at the Pine; so insteadof subsidisingthe
feed for pigs, they were going to help the people to
rear more cows. Is it that the cow's milk they are


getting up there is not sufficient and it is necessary
to import more milk to mix with it, or what? I do not
know.

I was not in here, but I do not know whether the
Minister merely read the Objects and Reasons of the
Bill. I merely stepped out, and he is trying to pull a
fast one onme. He missedme, andhe sat down quick-
ly in the hope of having it put to the vote. That is what
he wanted.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker,on a point
of order. The hon. member is accusing me of trying
to put this matter to the vote. The duty of a Minister
is to come into the House and explain to the Opposition
what the position is. When I was introducingthe Bill,
the Opposition walked out. I did not have anybody to
explain anything to. I came here fully equipped to ex-
plain to hon. members the full position at the Milk Plant;
I anticipated the questions which would have been
asked, and I am quite capable of answering any and
every question asked by any hon. member on the other
side of the House. There was nobody to speak to, and
there was no other alternative than to allowthe mat-
ter to go to the vote.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member is nowmaking
a speech. The hon. member must bear in mind that
there was someone to speak to, because there was a
Chair to address.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: But the Chair was not
seeking information, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker,thatwill tell you how he
ignores the Chair. He calls the Chair nobody. I am
saying this......

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of elucidation,
Mr. Speaker.

Mr. SMITH: Sit down. What point of elucidation are
you talking about? You only want to cause more trouble
now. Sit down. What are you going to elucidate? Why do
you not go up to the Pine and elucidate?

Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot even suspend for grave
disorder, because there is not a Clerk present at the
table. I am absolutely impotent.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I was not speaking to
you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. SPEAKER: I quite understand how the hon.
Minister feels, and he does not think that he so flatters
the Chair. The Chair is understanding, and does not
need unnecessary clarification.
5 p.m.

Mr. SMITH: Sir, you must not allow the Hon. Min-
ister to be getting up on this point of elucidation and
this point of order; he only wants to keep you back in
the Chair. He said that there was nobody in the'chair.

Mr. SPEAKER: Therefore, he cannot keep back
anybody.









Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, let me prove to you the
type of Minister whom I have to deal with now. When
I came in here, the hon. senior member for Christ
Church was speaking. How on earth could the Minister
say that no person was in here? If no person was in
here from the Opposition, would he not have had the
question put? I am accustomed to tellinghim I can-
not say what because it would be out of order, but he
is so much accustomed to telling these little ones that
he cannot tell a big one yet, because he cannot tell one
yet that when anyone hears it he will think it is the
truth. The Minister cannot get up there yet.

Mr. SPEAKER: That is the name of a local news-
paper.

Mr. SMITH: None of the Opposition was in his
place and yet when I came in here, the hon. senior
member for Christ Church was speaking! The Min-
ister had his opportunity then and I know how quick
you would have been to say: "I think the "Ayes" have
it. He can say that I do not know as much about it
as he likes, but I was born before him and I have
more brain than he has when it comes to business.
I may not have it when it comes to teaching lies, but
when it comes to business I have it on him. (Mr.
HINDS: Racehorses). Well, I would not say that
because he does not feed them. (Laughter). When we
come to a Bill of this sort, the Minister is now
asking for the authority to control the production and
there was a time gone by when my wife was so afraid
of these tins of milk that she said: "Not another one
in here, don't bring it." You would be surprised to
know, Mr. Speaker, that I went home one night......
(Mr. SPEAKER: I am not surprised that the hon.
member went home one night.) Well, on this particular
night I smelt something. I said: "Gracious me, what
is that?" She said: "That is the milk you brought in
here." She had opened a tin. Now the Minister is
telling me that he is bringing in a Bill to control
something in relation to which it is only that God is
merciful to us, otherwise a good few of us would
have gone down and the undertakers would have got
a few berries. You know as well as the world what
was coming from up there in a tin, and they were
fleecing the people with the price, making people pay
more for it. I am not having any more confidence in
some of these Ministers when they come in here and
tell us all sorts of things in order to get something
passed, when, in truth and in fact, they themselves
do not know about it. Some of them do not know what
is going on. I can tell you that, as to some of them, I
know more of their Ministries than they know about
them. The Chair in their office is soft and cool and
they can swing around in it and so on, and they are not
getting up and going out and putting their ears to the
ground and listening.


I understand that the people up there are dis-
gusted. This thing cannot pay and they are going to
pull up their sticks. The Government believes in
putting their money with foreigners. I do not know who
they are up there, but they come in here with a few cents
and the Government then throws the taxpayers' money
with theirs and then when you least think of it, they


1575


come in here with a Resolution asking us to do this,
that and the other. When these people see that it is
not going to pay, they are not goingtoo far financially
in it. The Government believes in arranging with
people who are working for a commission, people
who are working in the profits, and they would not
even ask these people this question:- "If you lose,
how much are you prepared to stand?" They are tell-
ing the Government how much they must share in; they
are telling the Government how much they must get;
but if it is losing, the Government is not asking them
how much are they prepared to lose. I suppose that if
the Government were to ask them, they would tell them
and we would not get too far. You are trying to put
these little "nay nay" industries in this place and
then we have to pay through our noses for that. What
is the good of putting up an industry and you are getting
the produce 50% dearer than if you have to import it,
and you may be employing only two or three people?
It is much better to let that industry go by itself, and
if it was going to employ 20 or 25 people, you could
subsidize those persons. You would not be losing any-
thing; if you had to call them up and pay them until
they get work, you wouldnotbe losing one cent; but
you are going to throw away thousands of dollars and
you are telling me that you are relieving unemploy-
ment. You are relieving unemployment, but at the same
time you are burdening employment. As to these
people, whether they work or not, they have to eat and
drink and they have to find money to spend. When they
have to pay more money for food, you are not help-
ing them. Let us face facts. I am quite willing to do
everything that is right, but the Minister knows to
himself that this is a hot rod, and setting up a Board
of Management or anything of the sort is not going
to cure it. It will only cure it when this processing
plant puts its house in order to do the necessary
processing without having to do this big importation.
This place up there sank or was sinking money.
Last year I may tell you that it ma le a little money,
but what did it make the money from? Not from
the processing of the milk, not from buying people's
milk and processing it; it made the money from the
importation of the same milk and the profits they have
made have to be subsidized now, or they have to pay
for the other side that is throwing them away.
5.10 p.m.
Now, Sir, if the processing side is throwing it
away through some fault of whom, I do not know, but
the importation side is making money and what it
is making is to pay for what it is throwing away,
well, stop the side that is throwing it away. If the
processing side of it cannot measure up and has
inot proved profitable while the importation side is
showing a profit, stop the processing side and go
back to the old time religion go back to importing
the milk, go back to letting the merchants get it and
everything concerning that. Control it. Let the con-
sumers get it more cheaply and let the processing
side stay up there because that side is not making
any money.
If I expected that you still would have had to
import so much milk in the country to keep the
Milk Plant going, I would have been shouting'for
murder up to now. I never expected it would have
been like that because whenyou told me that you were






1576


going to improve the livestock industry and you were
going to do this and bring in machinery to make this
and that, it went down in me that every plantation
would have so many heads of cattle, every house-
holder would have a cow and you would be getting
the milk from these people. In other words, I felt
that you would have been able to get as much milk
as you required.



I do not know anything about it; I am not a Min-
ister. Neither one of these people came and talked
and negotiated with me. If they did, I would have
asked them some questions, but they must have ne-
gotiated with the Government; they must have talked
with the Minister. I believe that they must have in-
formed the Minister that we should get as much
livestock milk as would carry on the milk process-
ing plant for it to be a paying concern and it would
stop us from importing this particular milk.


I really thought that it would stop the importation
of milk, but I believe that you are importing more
now than when you did not have the Milk Plant. Some
thing is wrong. I understand that sometimes you have
a glut of milk up there. Why I did not ask the person
what was responsible for the glut was because I
thought it might have been a glut of bad milk not
good milk. I thought that was the milk which
they could not dispose of the bad one. I did not
know that they had so much cow's milk up there -
fresh milk that they could not get rid of it at
certain times of the year. I did not know that the tour-
ists drink so much milk when they come here more
so than any other time that the Directors of the
Milk Plant have to import this "Sun-Glow" or "Glow-
Sun", whatever you care to call it.

I was told that the tins were being imported. Well,
if they import the tins and they are tinning the milk
from the processing plant, that is all well and good,
but they are importing the milk too. I cannot see why,
and I hope the Minister will be able to get up here
and try to convince me and this Honourable House
why they have to import so much milk, whether it
is that they are not getting sufficient cow's milk or
whether it is that they are not encouraging the live-
stock industry.

I do not think that they are encouraging it be-
cause I do not see so many cows around by me. I
want to know if the Government is lending people
money to buy cows and to rear them or anything of
the sort. As I have said, thank God thatwe did not
lose a few. That same' place up there, I am told,
caused one of the Directors to leave because things
were so bad. That is what Iheard. It may cause more.
I hope it will cause the Minister to go because he must
get up and tell us the truth about everything up there.
Let him reply to us as a man would reply.

I will say it now because he himself has heard
it. I understand the reply we were given just now by the
Hon. Leader of the House about C.B.C. I will bet
you that the Minister is not going to get up and admit
certain things about the Milk Plant up there. He is not


going to admit certain things because he is en-
couraging them. I am saying that it cannot pay. The
people cannot pay more dividends because they are
losing money. This Government will have to do some
thing by way of pumping more money into it. If they
do not pumpmore money into it, it will fall through
just the same way as C. B. C.

After this Bill is passed, then this particular
Board that they are setting up is going to tell you
that their advances are so much and that they want
a little bit of working capital. That will be the first
report that will come to the Government, and the
Government then will be coming down here with a
Resolution asking us for some money to pump into
the Milk Plant up there because if it is losing money,
it must have working capital. It must work. You are
importing milk and you are making money from the
imported milk.

Hon. A.DaC. EDWARDS: If the hon. member
would just give way, Mr. Speaker, on a point of elu-
cidation. I want just to observe that the Pine Hill
Dairy is not a Government department so that the
Government has got to put money into it. It is a
limited liability company just like any other limited
liability company in this country, in which company
the Government owns a quarter of the shares. Gov-
ernment does not control the Pine Hill Dairy. I want
the hon. member to know this. It is not a Government
department; it is not like C.B.C.

Mr. SPEAKER: Point made.

Mr. SMITH: Sir, that is not a point.

Mr. SPEAKER: I advise you that it is a point.

Mr. SMITH: Well then, Sir, if it is not a Gov-
ernment department, what is the Bill doing here
before us; if it is not a Government Department,
why did the Government allow so much rotten milk
to be made by that place up there? If itwere mine,
they would have had it thrown through the eddoes
already.

What the Hon. Minister is telling me isthat itis
not a Government Department, but the Government has
money in it. Why then did the Government put money
into it? Sir, when you peruse this Bill,you will see in
it the power which this Government is putting into
the Minister's hand, yet it is not a Government
Department. What is it?

Well, I think you better say good-bye good bye
black bird to the little money which you have put
into it.Do not put any more into it, and leave the
company to see for themselves. Close your eyes to
the little few pence that you have up there, and do
not come in here for any more money for it. Do
not come in here asking us to vote any more money
for it, and let the people up there get on as they can.
I believe too much politics is going into it since you
told me so now. As soon as too much politics goes
into it, business do not work, and Ibelieve that some
person is trying to go to far with the people up there.







1577


Leave them to themselves and they will get out of
their troubles. You are telling me that you only have
in it a little nay-nay amount and it is not a Govern-
ment Department.
5.20 p.m.

Do you know we had some children who almost
died the other day? There are some children who
cannot resist things. Their resistance is very weak;
so be careful in dealing with that place up there. I
am telling you that the Directors are very dissatisfied;
they are not making any money, and people are going
to pull out. Now you say it is not a Government
Department, and I know who is going to lose. All is
not well up there financially, but you are coming with
a Bill to control it.

The other day a man told me he is sorry he has
put his money in cows, that he expected he would
have got through very well by sending all his milk
to the plant, but now he is indebt and cannot raise
the interest to pay on the loan he made from the
Bank to buy the cows. He thinks that in order to
make the Plant pay, you will have to make up your
mind to increase the price of milk; but do not let me
hear you have increases it. Now it has gone up 96
cents per case. These people will have to try and
safeguard themselves, because you cannot expect a
man to invest his money and then throw it away. The
only person who can do that and succeed is the Gov-
ernment, but no hard-headed businessman is going
to continue to throw away his money. The Minister>
only has a small part in it, but he is playing a big
part in it. We would have done a better job if we had
gone on in the way we had been going. People who
kept one or two cows to supply theirhomewithmilk
thought a better job would have been done by send-
ing the milk to the Plant, because it is really cheap-
er to buy milk than to keep a cow, so they were glad
to get rid of their cows andwere prepared to support
the Pine Hill Dairy. The Dairy has failed to support
the people, because there is too much imported milk
coming to this country when you have a milk- process -
ing plant. If they are importing milk, they should only
import as much as they are going to use up there.
If they cannot supply the required amount, they should
allow the merchants a quota to help themselves by
getting it direct. Do you think if Iwere aMinisterI
would allow any company to import foreign milk and
sell it to the people of this country? If that is to be
done, let us put it back into the hands of the merchants
who will be paying trade tax and income tax.

I believe the Pine Hill Dairy may be getting a
little tax holiday, and if they are, they are robbing
the Government because the Government loses that
income from trade tax. If they are going to be milk
importers, call them milk importers, but not "Pine
Hill Dairy." The Hon. member is a schoolmaster,
and I would like him to define "dairy" for me when
he gets up. My.commonsense tells me that an im-
porter cannotbe adairy. You know, when you have
a big lot of education, you look down on other people
but you cannot look down on me this time. It should
be the Pine Hill Importing Agents for Milk, but not


Pine Hill Dairy. Why did you allow them to do this?
And then the hardest part, is that the milk must be
bought for cash. For instance, I know of a low Bud-
get supermarket; could you expect the proprietor
to find money for 160 cases of milk at one time? This
would give you the impression that the Pine Hill
Dairy does not want small people, because when
they specify that a person must buy 160 cases of
milk cash, they are looking at the big shots and
not the little fellows; they are trying to squeeze
out the little fellows as far as milk is concerned.
He can get less than 160 cases,but hewill have
to pay the same thing for it as if he were buying
it from any merchant who buys 160 cases.

The Government has 25 per cent of the shares
in this Plant and must therefore! have a Director
on the Board, and he sits down around the table
and encourages these people to fleece the small
people, and if the Minister knows about it, he is
encouraging it also. It should not be 160 cases.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order,
there are five Directors of the Milk Plant, and the
Government has one vote of the five. Because of the
small amount of money which the Government has
in the Plant, the Chief Agricultural Officer who is
the Government's representative on the directorate
cannot sway the decision. It is his vote against four
others.

Mr. SMITH: I thank the Hon. Minister for that.
He cannot sway the decision, but he can report to
his Cabinet or to his Minister what is happening
and the Minister has that power to ask them to
leave the Plant and close it. Do not come to me
with that foolish hanky-panky excuse.

Hon. A.DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order,
I am now asking the House to give the Government
the authority under the issuing of a milk proces-
sor's licence. This Bill promised that the Pine Hill
Dairy and any other milk processor must have a
licence which can be withdrawn if they are not
operating in accordance with the wishes of the people
of the country. We do not have any power now and this
is what I am asking for. Iam quite willing to answer
the hon. member on the other questions.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, in my opening remarks
I said that this Bill has come at a very late hour.
This Government has put their money in a concern,
and has waited until the horse is out of the stable to
close the door. Do you not think that before you in-
vested one cent or before they started you should
have had done this Bill to control them?
5.30 p.m.
Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order.
It is unfortunate that the hon. member was not in his
place when I began to introduce the Bill, and it is
unfortunate that the Opposition did walk out and left
us without a quorum so that I could have explained
things quite fully. I commenced by saying that, in
1965 we startedwork on this matter and a Committee
was appointed. The Committee was appointed in 1965






1578


and it had to report. It was my intention to read out
the complete recommendations of the Committee;
but there was nobody here other thanthe Speaker and
the members on this side of the House. There was
nobody in the Opposition to listen to me. There was
nobody in the Opposition to hear me read out the
Report of the Committee appointed to make recom-
mendations to the Government. After the recom-
mendations were submitted to the Government, legis-
lation had to be drafted in order to implement the
recommendations. What kept the recommendations
so long was due to the fact that there were many,
and we had to go through them with a fine -tooth comb.
I wanted to point out this to hon. members when they
walked out of the Chamber.

Mr. SPEAKER: Point made.

Mr. SMITH: That must be a gallon this time;
that is not a pint.

Mr. SPEAKER: I did not say "pint", I said
"point."

Mr. SMITH: I am putting it my way, Sir. I told the
Minister already that I was born before him, and he
cannot pull a fast one on me. He say that he is try-
ing under this Bill to get power to take away or give
a licence. This will give him the power to do that,
but I want to know this and I hope he will answer
me. You did not have to give a licence before, and
you could not take away one if they were abusing
the position. How did they manage to import milk
into this country? How did they manage to import
milk into this country without a licence? It must be
remembered that you did not have any power or au-
thority to do anything. They are now importing milk
and doing as they like with it. You cannot import
anything into this country without an import licence.
Who gave the licence? "Fix-It-Right," or the Gov-
ernment? You now see the need for this; you now
see that you cannot control the people; tell me about
that now. I will sit and allow youto answer me now.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid if the hon. member
sits, he will sacrifice his right to continue his very
interesting address. The hon. member has a right
to reply, and I am sure he knows when is the time to
exercise his right of reply.

Mr. SMITH: He is seeking to pull a fast one on
me. I am telling this honourable Chamber that he can-
not pull a fast one on me. He is seeking now to give
a licence to sell a half gill, to buy a gallon from a
milkman and to sell it, but he is not concerned with
the selling of a million cases of milk and making a
lot of money. Here it is that one merchant can
order 800 cases of milk, but he is told that he can
only get 700 cases. The little fellow will have to
buy 160 cases at a time. What about this licence
now? The Milk Plant is importing milk into this
country without a licence. I will call up the Con-
troller tomorrow morning, and he will have to let
me know how it is done. I will remind the Minister
that I was a member of the Control Board; I have


been alive too long; I am an old soldier, so you
cannot fool me.

I am saying this for the last time. The Govern-
ment has to be blamed for this situation. When the
Government is putting money into anything, whether it
is a cent or a penny Why should the Government put
any money into it? Business people come into this
country to set up an industry. They did not ask the
Government for any money, but the Government asked
them to take money. The Government could control
things in the Agreement and so on, and it would not
have to put one cent. It could make certain Regulations
that they would have to agree to from the start before
one stick was put down. Let the people come and spend
their money. When they spend their money they will
put an interest in the business, and they are going to
make money. Do not think an industrialist will walk
about in a foolish manner. When he tells you that he is
going to set up an industry, the only thing he may be in
doubt of is the population; that we only consist
of 250,000 and so on, that that is not sufficient, and
that they will try to see if they could export some of
the products to the other smaller territories.

Of course, some industrialists will not come near
Barbados to open an industry. They cannot, because
our population is too small. Even the rum industry,
and I drink a lot of it, has to stop making rum a
certain period of the year. We cannot consume all
of the commodities produced in" this Island in such
a manner as would enable all of them to make a pro-
fit. It would be necessary to rely onexport trade, in
order to do good business. When an industrialist comes
here, he or she may be like a turkey with the wings
falling down. He cannot get in anywhere else, and he
will try to get into Barbados. No big industrialist would
set up an industry here unless he went into the other
territories to find out......

Mr. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member still address -
ing the Chair?

Mr. SMITH: Yes, Sir, and listening to the Clerk
at the same time.

Mr. SPEAKER: I express my regret that the Clerk
should have interrupted the hon. member in the course
of his address. I hope that will never recur in this
House.

Mr. SMITH: I hope so, Sir. I am adhering to the
Clerk now, Sir. I will close. Some of these Ministers
think that when I get up here and give my views that
I am against them, or that I hate them, and do not
want to associate with them. That has caused some
of them to disassociate themselves from me when I
go into the tunch Room, but Ido not mind that. I must
state my views. This is the most importantpart, and
the Minister must see to it from now that if the Pine
Hill Dairy is going to continue to import milk into
this country to re-distribute to the merchants, then
they must put their house in order to give a 60-day
or 90-day grace payment. They must compel a buyer
to buy 25 cases and upward.






1579


Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a pointoforder. My
understanding is that the Ministry did take up this
question of 160 cases. I understand that you can get as
low as 5 cases now.

Mr. SMITH: I am glad to hear that, Mr. Speaker.
But how, C. O. D., or grace-payment?

Mr. SPEAKER: Just let the hon. member pose his
question. The Hon. Minister is so careful, I know, in
noting every point of his reply that he will give the in-
formation at the appropriate time.
5.40 p.m.

Mr. SMITH: See to it then that when they can get
five cases, let it be sixty days or ninty days. No. 3, do
not carry it all the way up to the Pine and then the
merchants will have to send up there for it. Let them
draw it ......(Asides). Mr. Speaker, what isthatnoise
there? There is some noise down there.

Mr. SPEAKER: I did hear some of it, but I know
that my friend, His Honour the Deputy Speaker, is do-
ing his best to keep everything under control.

Mr. SMITH: Sir, there is some noise down there
and you must try and stop it for me.

Mr. SPEAKER: Let the hon. senior member for St.
Joseph now proceed.

Mr. SMITH: As I was saying, Sir, you should not
allow them to draw the milkup to the Pine and then the
people have to send up there for it and pay them for the
freight. Mr. Speaker, the Minister is not listening to
me now; he is listening to somebody else. I am coming
home now: so just listen to me. Let the hon. member
who has just gone there to attract you you ask him
to wait. I am on the floor. If they are going to draw
the milk up to the Pine, let that be at thier expense;
do not carry it up there and charge the merchants for
it. The merchants are accustomed to drawing their
goods from the Port; therefore, let it remain down
there and they will do the necessary ordering and
everything else and post it to the wholesalers. Let
them have an agent just as the merchant has his agent.
Let the Pine Hill Dairy help unemployment by putting
a clerk to go around to the merchants as soon as the
ship is coming in or take the orders from the mer-
chants and as soon as it arrives, they will post them
the order to go and draw it out. That is what I would
like to see and hear. Do not allow them to be fleecing
people up there, although they hadno rightwith it all.
They should be only importing theirs. Mr. Minister,
listen to me.

Mr. SPEAKER: No, no. The Chair is listening. The
Minister may hear if he cares.

Mr. SMITH: Sir, I know that you are listening,
but the Minister was not listening.

Mr. SPEAKER: That is his misfortune if he does
not hear.
Mr. SMITH: Let it be in this way. I am not in
favour of their dealing with it at all. Let them im-


port theirs and let them do as they like with it up
there, and let the merchants continue to import it
through the Comptroller or the agents or somebody
else, and let us get ahead. As to this milk question,
the way in which the boys have it up there, it is
making money, but who has to pay for it? The con-
sumer. I am in the consumer's corner; I am not in
the corner of the Pine Hill Dairy. See to it and do
not let me get any more of these reports.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, we have heard very
little from the Minister on this Bill upto the moment,
but there are just one or two points which I want to
raise and see what the Minister has to say in con-
nection therewith. There is no doubt that whatever
the Government seem to be associated with, one can
find much to say against it. We know, for instance,
that what happens at this Pine Hill Dairy is that
from the launching of the project there was not that
amount of sincerity which one would expect from the
authorities. This scheme was launched by bringing
in second-hand machinery and passing it off as
something new. That is definite. They brought in old
boilers and they almost brought death to 244,999
people. That excludes me, Sir, because I do not
drink milk. What we have got to concern ourselves
with is this. There are quite a number of small men
who bought two or three cows in the hope that they
would have been able to supply milk to the Pine Hill
Dairy, and we know that no provision is being made
for them any longer. They are too small and the
Government has shown its intention, wherever
possible, to get rid of the small man in whatever
undertaking he might be.

This Bill is laying considerable emphasis on
health standards and considers in some detail the
question of processing or producing milk for human
consumption. Now, this is something which has got
to be given very, very careful consideration because
we are not sure that even by the lessons which they
ought to have learnt in the past of their past opera-
tion we are not abundantly clear that they have
really taken in those lessons. We have learnt from
the Minister of Trade that his Ministry is concerned
with the price-fixing of milk, the price at which milk
should be sold, and I also heard him say or express
his intention to prosecute or see that some sort of
legal action is taken against the Pine Hill Dairy or
any other concern which is overcharging.
5.50 p.m.

Now there is no denying the fact that the pro-
vision merchants have been charged during the past
two days 96 cents per case over what they have been
charged formerly. As a matter of fact, they had been
paying $12.96 per case, but from yesterday or day
before, they have been called upon to pay $13.52. It
is costing the wholesalers one cent per tin more.

I want to know from the Minister of Trade if they
really and truly mean to take action. If it is found out
that the Pine Hill Dairy has been overcharging the
provision merchants 96 cents per case on six-ounce
tins of evaporated milk, I really would like to see
and hear in truth and fact that definite action is taken,







1580


and not action like what the people have been told in
Independence Square about B.W.I.A. and this lot of
summonses.

We want action this time if it is true that these
people have been overcharging the trade. We can
easily say that the provision merchants need not buy
at that price. It is all right to say so, but the Pine
Hill Dairy people are bringing it in for the provision
merchants. This is a very serious business. They
have the promise from the Minister that there is
going to be an increase in the retail price to the con-
sumer; consequently they have jumped the gun and
have decided to over-charge the provision merchants.

The provision merchants have got to buy because
they make very little profit which is about 58 cents
or something like that when they sell a whole case
of these six-ounce tins of milk. That is nothing to the
trade, but nevertheless they have got to try and keep
this milk on the shelves because if they do not have
this milk on the shelves, you will understand that the
consumers will have to drift and go all about down
the street where they can get potatoes, where they
can get flour, where they can get cornmeal or what-
ever else they want. Every provision merchant would
lose his trade today if he does not have milk on his
shelves. It would run riot if these business places
do not have milk, and all the customers will go
down the streets where they can get milk from other
places. Therefore, the provision merchants have got
to try and keep a little of everythingon their shelves
so as to, what we call,, "catch his customers"

This is a dangerous situation in which we are
placed. But now, if the provision merchants are over-
charged one cent per tin of six-ounce milk, what is
the position? Is he expected to buy it at 96 cents per
case more than what the Schedule says or what he
was paying for it in the past, and sell it at the same
price at which he was selling it before? How could
you expect the same people to give him business?

What we would want to see at this stage is not
that the Price Control Inspectors, or the Police for
that matter, run up Roebuck Street, Tudor Streetand
along Eagle Hall and hound down some of the shop-
keepers who have bought some of this milk during
the last few days and have it on their shelves and
perhaps are charging an extra cent or something for
it; we do not want to see you hound them down now.

The source of the complaint is at the Pine Hill
Dairy. They are the people who are overcharging.
Haul them before the Courts with a forthwith sum-
mons, and I am sure that every shopkeeper, every
provision merchant, wherever he is, would boldly
take his purchases back to the original owner. Get
it straight! Let the Pine Hill Dairy people refund
every cent to everyone of those provision merchants
that it has over-charged during the past few days.

I am asking the Minister to let us see that the Gov-
ernment take definite action against these law
breakers. We have heard it trotted out about here
that this body breaks the law. Mr. Speaker, I believe


that they are taking pattern for what is happening
from the Mother Parliament in Great Britain because
you hear Mr. Harold Wilson say that if Mr. Ian Smith
does this, it would be an act of this or an act of that
and every sort of thing. We want to see definite action
being taken. Stop all this racketeering that is going
on about the place.

Now, Sir, there is one other point that worries
me very much about this Milk Plant. Ican assure the
Minister of Trade that I am notgoingto be very long
on my feet, but there are practices that are being
engaged in at the Pine Hill Dairy that can upset the
whole plant. You will find, Mr. Speaker, that they
are employing people up there as guards, as they
call them. They are employing them as guards
because they are paying them watchmen's pay. They
are paying them the very small pay of a watchman,
but what do you find? You employ a man as a guard
and then give him clerical work to do. Then you are
going to dismiss them; but these very poor people
cannot look for some of these lawyers to carry their
complaints to.

You employ a man as a guard and you are going
to dismiss him for not doing clerical work properly
and give him a letter to that effect. You regard this
man as a guard, but you give him clerical work to do.
You send him away, but he got the same pay the day
he left after working there many months as when he
was taken on. In other words, you have not promoted
him in any respect. You employ him as a guard and
when you dismiss him, you dismiss him as a clerk
at a guard's pay.

All of these things are not right at all. I may tell
you, Sir, all of these industries almost without ex-
ception that are being established here the principal
parties in them intend to do absolutely nothing else
but to suck the blood of the poor people of this Island.
They are milking the blood out of the poor people.
What more can you find than that to which I have re-
ferred, Mr. Speaker? You hire a man as a guard or a
watchman, but you put him then to do clerical work.

These people do not intend to hire clerks to do
the work inside the place. They want to run it as
cheaply as they possibly can, and at the same time
get everything they possibly can. I understand the
Minister to say a while ago in this House that it is
not $3.00 per case that they were making by importing
this milk into this Island. I want the Minister to tell
us on the floor of this House, if the Pine Hill Dairy
people were not making $3.00 profit on each case of
milk imported into the Island, how much money they
were making.
6.00 p.m.

As the hon. senior member for St. Joseph has
said, if these people are making so much money by
importing milk, I do not know what kind of business
they could be carrying, because here is a case where
we set up a manufacturing industry, and their chief
money earner is importation. They are also sucking
the poor people of this country, because when the com-
mission agents in Bridgetown were allowedto import







1581


milk, they sold it to the provision merchants,and thp
provision dealers in turn sold to the shopkeepers,
and when it reached the shopkeepers it was far cheap-
er than it is today though you have set up an industry
to manufacture it. You have allowed the industry the
monopoly to import, make $3 on each case landed at
the Port, and the milk is reaching the consumer at a
price at which people just cannot afford to buy it.

We feel, Mr. Speaker, that there is a dire need
for a thorough investigation into the operations of the
Pine Hill Dairy. We are taking too much for granted
when a Minister comes and tells us that something is
right. The Minister of Agriculture told us some time
ago when we were discussing matters connectedwith
the Pine Hill Dairy and the badmilkwhich was being
processed there that there were eight or nine things
that were found to be wrong that gave cause to this
milk which almost killed the whole population, and he
gave us to understand that seven out of the eight or
eight out of the nine things had been detected and cor-
rected. Up to today, Mr. Speaker, I understand that
they have spent over $40,000 carrying out research
to find out what caused this and what caused that and
why the milk would not last more than a few days. I
do not want it to be saidon the floor of this House by
the Minister or anybody else that if they have spent
$40,000 in research, that is $40,000 that should have
been passed on to the milk consumers in this country.
That is $40,000 which they have milked out of the con-
suming public, and I will say it is a sure case of ill-
gotten gains. They have had to spend it just as they got
it. I want to hear from theMinister that something has
definitely been done and that the situation at the Pine
Hill Dairy is going to be vastly different from what it
has been in the past. We want to know that the con-
suming public is going to get better and cheaper milk.

I understand that the Pine Hill Dairy people are
complaining that the containers in which they supply
certain qualities of milk are responsible for the high
cost; but remember, Sir, that milk at 22 1/2 cents per
pint is a terrible thing in this Island. During the past
few days the price of the 6 oz. evaporated milk has gone
up, as well as the price of the large condensed milk.
What is the Government goingto do? Are they going to
allow the Pine Hill Dairy to turn everybody's mind in
this Island from drinking milk? The people cannot af-
ford to buy it and we are appealing to the Government
to do something. Oh Lord, protect the consuming pub-
lic I Don't let the Pine Hill Dairy fleece them any long-
er! We want a reduction in the price of milk to the
consumer.

Mr. Speaker, many little children in the schools
come from the country districts, and their parents
cannot afford to give them the amount of milk that is
so necessary. That is why these children in the end
cannot pass these examinations. They are not properly
fed; they are under-nourished. Milk is a staple diet,
and if the children in this Island could each be given
one pint of milk per day, we wouldhave the happiest,
rosiest, loveliest looking children any part of the
world. The Minister has referred to the number of
pounds of milk, but let me tell him, Sir, that if during
the tourist season the hotels had been buying up this


milk, we are willing to have the Government subsidise
it at this stage for these few weeks if we are certain
that every child in every school in the Island is going
to each get one pint of milkper day. In addition, there
are some poor mothers in the rural districts, in the
City and elsewhere in the Island, and we are willing
to have their children bathe in the milk rather than
have it thrown away this time. We have had a situa-
tion where the plantations could not dispose of the milk
from the cows they kept and were feeding it to the pigs.
In the parish of St. Thomas that has been happening. Is
it fair, Mr. Speaker, that people can have milk to feed
to their pigs, and the poor people in St. Peter and in
St. Lucy which you represent can only get a drink of
milk one day per week, and that is on Sunday? Why
should the price be as it is today? Let us hear by to-
morrow, if humanly possible, that something is done
to protect the consuming public.

If the Pine Hill Dairy finds that it cannot operate
without making a loss, let them get out of the business,
because there are other people who are interested in
setting up dairies here who will come in, and bring
their know-how and clean, proper equipment. I am
sure that the Minister will not be able to defend the
charge that the price of milk has gone up considerably
since the establishment of the Dairy, though we were
told when it was set up that the price would be cheap-
er to the consumer.

Mr. Speaker, I will not keep back the Minister
any longer. I know that he is anxious to get the Bill
through, and we do not want in any respect to hold
him up. There is however, one small point on the
matter of price-fixing. Yesterday when I learnt what
was taking place between the Pine Hill Dairy and the
provision merchants in Bridgetown, I got in touch with
the Controller of Supplies and got the assurance from
him that there was no question of an increase in the
price of milk. The Pine Hill Dairy has shown that they
have absolutely no consideration for the people of Bar-
bados. If they had, they would never have produced the
stinking milk they produced in the past. They would
have had shame, some measure of pride and some
regard for standards. They have nothing of the kind.
They are just money-grabbers and they do not care
how they get it or where they get it, and I warn the
Minister about supporting people like the Pine Hill
Dairy operators.
6.10 p.m.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, in reply
to the hon. junior member for St. Peter, I would like
to explain to him I do not want to cross the path of
the Hon. Minister of Agriculture who is responsible
for the Pine Hill Dairy, and who will wind up,
actually, the debate. I would like to reply to the hon.
junior member for St. Peter with regard to some
questions asked. One of the first problems at the Milk
Plant after we installed it was that the cost of fresh
milk in Barbados is more expensive than in any part
of the world. It would be impossible to carry on, if
large quantities of fresh milk are not used in either
the making of evaporated milk, or in the production
of condensed milk. Most of the other milks are used
for processing bottled milk and milk for quart cans.






1582


As was mentioned just now, the cost of the contain-
ers is rather high; the cost of production of milk, due
to feed and the cost of concentrates as Barbados
is not a large grazing country, high concentrates
have to be used at high prices, and that has kept
the price of milk at an extraordinary high rate, far
higher than any other part of the world.

When the Milk Plant started production, one of
the things that was overlooked was the necessity to
have small tins of evaporated milk. We discovered
that no provision had been made for producing
small tins of evaporated milk, which was the main
type of milk poor people used. The small tins of
milk had to be produced. It meant that the diver-
sification of the Agricultural Programme in Bar-
bados had to go ahead. We had to produce our own
feed for cattle, etc., for the Pine Hill Dairy. In
other words, to sell milk, or to reduce the price of
milk, it would be impossible as an incentive to the
producer. That would have stagnated the whole thing.

We had to import into the country small tins of
evaporated milk. We imported the 6 ounce tins of
evaporated milk, because more people in the country
and in shops used it. During the devaluation the
maximun price was $2.60 per case, andIagreed with
it. This was a very high margin of profit allowed to
any businessman. $2.60 per case was a high margin
of profit. This high margin was allowed as a con-
sideration for the subsidisation of fresh milk that
was produced at a very high price.

I think provision has been made simce the Min-
ister of Agriculture has applied to the Pine Hill
Dairy for some of this milk to be used in schools
for nourishment of children rather than giving it
to pigs and so on. I consider it a waste to give pigs
something that could be used by children. After
producing for a considerable period, as you know,
we had this problem of bad milk into the country. The
Pine Hill Dairy carried out experiments, and we gave
them licences in the meantime to import milk whilst
they checked to see what was the cause of the trouble
Therefore we went on importing the small and 14
ounce tins of milk which we were not producing in
the Island, as the milk made locally was not stand-
ing up for any period. The margin of profit made on
the imported milk in tins compensated for the losses
that we were experiencing in producing fresh milk
in the Island. More fresh milk was produced than
they could have disposed of in the tins and the milk
sold in the bottles.

Sir, the source of this milk came from the
Carnation people. Due to the devaluation the price
of this milk has increased considerably. With the
local production of condensed milk, which they have
been producing quite well and quite efficiently from
_he beginning, the cost of tins, freight, and commo-
dities used in the manufacture of milk has also gone
up. The price of milk since devaluation has not
been increased The Pine Hill Dairy has submitted
a proposal to Government asking for an increase in
the price of milk. This increased is being looked into


at the present time, but no decision has been made
up to now.

Only this morning, I would like to assure the hon.
junior member for St. Peter, a merchant in Bridge-
town I will not call his mane at ten o'clock this
morning presented me with a bill where he had
bought at the wholesale price far in excess of what
was stated in the Schedule. The Schedule sets out
the wholesale price and the retail price. Just as the
hon. member has said, in most of these instances
in these small shops the poor shopkeeper has paid
a high price for it, and he is forced to sell it at a
high price because to sell one commodity it is
necessary to have other commodities, and he has no
alternative. The Price Control Officers find their
way into these small shops where people pay high
prices for it, and I agree that these are the people
who usually pay the penalty and get the fines.

Mr. French produced to me this.morning a bill
showing that he had bought milk from the Pine Hill
Dairy wholesale at a higher price than the scheduled
price. The Controller of Supplies was in my office,
and I told him: "Do not take any hesitation; itismy
instruction as the Minister of Trade, and I accept
any consequences from anybody with regard to what
happens in this; take legal action against them immed-
iately." If they hold the milk and do not produce it,
we have equally as well. The example should be set
from the source of something that the Government
has an interest in. That is how I feel about setting
the pattern.

Sir, I can assure you that I have given instruc-
tions this morning to the Price Controller to take
the necessary proceedings just as he would with a
small shopkeeper with a tin of corned beef. He
must treat the Pine Hill Dairy in the same manner.
I make no apoligies to anybody for it, because this
is the source and the means whereby you have to cut
down this high price, and this is setting the pattern
to the small man. The small man buys the milk at
a high price, and very often he has no alternative.
Too often, it is not that the small man wants to
profiteer, but it is a means of selling another
commodity. A man would go somewhere else to
buy milk and other commodities. I would like to
assure the hon, member that I am very active on
this, and I am prepared to make an example of
anybody. I have no regard for anybody; I have no
interest in stores. I am interested in the people of
this country and the law. The Law has not been
changed giving the Pine Hill Dairy any right to in-
crease prices, and I am prepared to take action
against them as Minister of Trade.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Hon.
Minister for the assurance and the prompt action
he has taken in this matter.


Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that the hon. junior
member for St. Peter caught me not nodding, but
otherwise occupied. He was not entitled to speak
again. It is no pointof order to return thanks.






1583


Hon. A.DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, there were
several points made by hon.members on the other side
not necessarily on the Bill, but in respect of the
operations and functions of the Milk Plant. I would
like to start off by answering the last speaker first,
and go back to the first-in that nammer. The hon.
junior member for St. Peter mentioned the fact
that second-hand machinery was used in the Milk
Plant, and I say "Yes". We were under the impres-
sion that the machinery was new machinery I have
no covering up to make for anybody.

They have used a second' -hand bolier and this is
one of the reasons that they were producingbad milk
The position is that they came to this country with
a project which was said to have $1 million. They
discovered in the end that $ 1 million could not pro-
duce the sort of plant and equipment that was nec-
essary. Instead of buying a new boiler, they bought
a second-hand boiler. The boiler was even too small,
and this is one of the main reasons why bad milk was
produced.
6.20 p.m.

The Minister of Trade has pointed out that the Milk
Plant was given permission to bring in milk. He
has explained that the cause of the demand for the
six-ounce tins of evaporated milk, because of the
consumers' request, it was considered expedient to
import this type of milk. He has also pointed out that
some time in May or Junelastyear, permission was
granted to the Milk Plantand this is in reply to the
hon. senior member for St. Joseph to import
fourteen -ounce tins of evaporated milk. The hon.
member wanted to know why that was done and the
answer is this; the Milk Plant, because of a faulty
boiler inter alia was producing bad evaporated milk.
It was considered necessary therefore to stop the
manufacture of evaporated milk but at the same time,
the Milk Plant, after having made representations
to the Government, agreed to get milk I think it
was to come from Holland with the labels showing
the manufacture in this particular territory, and the
Pine Hill Dairy carried the label "Pine Tree", "Sun
Gold" or what have you. This was an arrangement
between the Pine Hill Dairy and the manufacturing
firm abroad in order to meet the demands of Bar-
bados carrying the same label, but pointing out that
the milk was made out of the country for the Pine
Hill Dairy. That was done merely to keep the trade
mark on the market.

It was pointed out at the time that the Ministry
of Trade gave the Pine Hill Dairy the authority to
import the milk, and it was also pointed out that they
hoped to have their milk back on the market in two
months' time. This was some time in May or June
last year, but this was not to be. They got in experts
and spent over $40,000 on research work which they
did, and we saw their point when they said that they
could not get the milk back on the market after two
months, because what they did was to make certain
batches of milk and keep them, and in every week
they would go through the milk in order to see what
the last quality of the milk was. They wanted to
be in a position that when they went back to the man-


ufactures of evaporated milk, they would have done
without these faults. They had milk for about six
months or more; they had some stored for six
months and they have found that the formula which
they have now is all right. There is one piece of
equipment which they are still awaiting, but the
experts have pointed out that the man whom they
have now can still make the milk and, as an matter
of fact, he has still made some without this equip-
ment, but they prefer to get thiis other piece of equip-
ment. The boiler was retubed last year and because
of that they are now in a position to produce the milk
It is my understanding that last week they began pro-
ducing evaporated milk again. It is not yet on the
market because they want to be able to test it after
a matter of days; however, they have begun manufac -
turing evaporated milk, and the local evaporated milk
will soon be on the market. I just wanted to explain
to the hon, senior member for St. Joseph that the
reason they were giving is that they wanted to keep
the trade mark in the eyes of the public, and this was
supposed to have been a temporary measure.

The hon. member also asked about the price of
fresh milk and about the price of milk generally
in Barbados. The hon. junior member for St. Peter
has pointed out that the price of milk in Barbados
is too high. I should like to remind that hon. mem-
ber that similar sweetened condensed milk and sim-
ilar evaporated milk, not of the same quality, has
been manufactured in the past; but sweetened con-
densed milk is being produced in Trinidad and sold
at 33 cents a tin, whereas in Barbados, it is sold
at 30 cents In Jamaica, it is sold at 34 cents a
tin and, in Barbados evaporated milk is sold at 31
cents (Mr. HINDS: What about wages in Trinidad?)
All right,. evaporated milk is manufactured in
Trinidad and in Jamacia and is sold at the price I
have mentioned. Now, I want to be brutally frank.
We are encouraging in this country a system of
agricultural diversification; we are now building up
the dairy industry which we did not have in the past
I mean by that that we did not have the quality
animals in this country in the past, the quality
animals which we are having today. There was not
that much interest in dairying in this country, and,
as a matter of fact, the quality of the milk which
the average consumer in this country was using was
questionable. There is no question about that.
Every now and then you found that this person or
that person was charged with placing adulterated
milk on the market. There is no question of milk
adulteration at the Pine Hill Dairy.


I will tell you this: the average person who keeps
a cow or two and is selling milk in a three-gills
bottle or a pint-and-a-half bottle to his customers
on mornings, milks his cow in a bucket with seams
- and I have seen even recently, since the Pine Hill
Dairy I began operation,, a certain person who owns
cows and whose milk was not accepted by the Pine
Hill Dairy because they were not satisfied that the
standard demanded was maintained by this person
came to me himself with milk and asked me to send
that milk to the Pine Hill Dairy along with my milk







1584


on my behalf. When I looked at the container in which
the milk was, it was a bucket that seemed not to
have been scrubbed for ten years. It seemed as if
water was scarce, and dirt was all around it. Dirt
was in the seams of the bucket-and this is milk that
was sold to people in this country to drink.

But that is not the standard that is demanded
of the milk sent to the Milk Plant. What I am saying
is that the Milk Plant demands a certain standard,
and that is not the standard which is demanded of
the Milk Plant. In the past not all the milk produced
in this country and sold to the average consumer
was bacteria-free or dirt -free or had the minimum
of dirt and it was not strained. You saw all sorts
of dust in it, and that was the sort of thing that you
got, plus the question of adulteration.

You may have a Jersey cow giving you six
pounds of milk, and you are selling twelve because
the question of solids and fats in the milk of a Jersey
cow is more than the solids and fats in the milk of a
Holstein cow; therefore the milkof aJersey cow can
carry more water.

People know that that is what is happening in this
country today, but it cannot happen with milk from the
Milk Plant because every batch of milk produced as
such to the Pine Hill Dairy is tested: and if you do
not have certain standards let us say, suppose your
milk had not been up to the required standard because
bacteria was troubling the milk; suppose there was
any evidence of dirt in the milk, if there was blood,
if there were flies or any sort of foreign body found
in that milk; it is reported back to you and in order
to maintain a high quality from the dairy farmers, at
any time there is a warning from the Dairy Plant,
you lose for every warning one-eighth of a cent per
pound of milk on the whole month's production.

The hon. senior member for Christ Church knows
this too. For every warning that you get from the Pine
Hill Dairy the particular farmer loses money; so he
must keep his milk at a high standard if he is to
receive an economical price for his milk. That
is why I can make bold to say that the average
consumer in this country, where fresh milk is con-
cerned, is getting a higher quality, and the milk farm-
ers do not worry to put water in it because the Pine
Hill Dairy makes its test so as to know when water
is in it. Whenever water is found in it, that milk is
turned \down. You therefore cannot adulterate your
milk.

On the question of containers raised by the hon.
member the plastic containers which the Dairy
Plant is using I have already told them that this is
nonsense. We have been accustomed to using bottles
in this country. A bottle can be used for two years so
long as it is properly sterilised. Perhaps it can be
used longer than this unless it is broken. Every time
a housewife in this country buys a quart of milk, she is
throwing away six cents. If it were bottled, you would
have to bring in some automatic machine or some-
thing of the sort to clean the bottles, but it would be


in the interest of the consumer because the con-
sumer would not be throwing away six cents every
time she used a quart of milk.

I have already raised the question with the Milk
Plant and they said that they do not favour bottles,
but they were bringing in a plastic container which
would cost less. I still feel that the bottle in the long
run is cheaper and that the consumer should be getting
cheaper cold milk.

Hon. members would remember that every vote
for Nutrition in the Estimates has been increased by
a few thousand dollars, and this has been done for use
of fresh milk in schools in the out-of-tourist season.
As from next term in some of the schools, some of the
milk from the Dairy Plant will be passed on to some
of the children who are not in receipt of school meals.
It is to be appreciated, however, that the cost of pro-
ducing a pint of milk from milkpowder is only in the
region of four and a half cents to five cents a pound
whereas it costs four times as much to feed a school
child on pure fresh milk.

We have to grow; we have to do it in stages; we
cannot just double or treble the vote on Nutrition un-
der the Schools' programme. At the same time, we
have to cut our suit to suit the cloth.

It was also suggested that the Government is try-
ing to get rid of the small man. This is ridiculous.
The position is that the Government is trying to help
the small man because the Government has made it
possible for the small man to get loans, in the first
place, to purchase cows, and this Bill takes care of
the small man because the fellow with one or two
cows does not necessarily havetogetalicence.

Therefore, this Bill takes care of the small man
whom the Government is accused of trying to cripple.
The Government has made it possible for the small
man to have a loan from the Government to purchase
the same quality cow as the big dairy producer. We
allow them to advance one-quarter of the cost of the
imported Holstein from Canada, and we give them two
years to pay for the cow. By then the cow would have
had two calves and it is known that in the lactation
period the cow would be in a position to produce
enough milk to pay for itself.
On the other hand, we do not ask the small man
to pay any further deposit for the first four months
because we feel that we should only ask him to pay
after the cow is producing. How is it that we are not
doing anything to help the small man?
6.40 p.m.

We have also gone further. We have made pro-
vision by the Farming Incentive Board to help the
small man with an acreage of land from 25 acres to
half an acre; yet we are accused of doing nothing for
the small man. In the development of the livestock
industry a grant of 30 per cent of the cost of whatever
it cost to fence, to plant grass, to set upirrigation
equipment is made and he is given a loan of another
30 per cent.






1585 -


Mr. HINDS: On a point of elucidation, did the Min-
ister say that provision is made for the man with less
than half an acre?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: From 25 acresdownto
less than half an acre these facilities are granted.

Mr. SPEAKER: On a point of eluciding, the hon.
member rises to such a point to elucidate some mat-
ter raised by the member himself in the course of
his speech.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS; This was not done be-
fore, but at the time when the hon. junior member
for St. Michael was in the Ministry, and through the
Farming Incentive Scheme you can see that we did not
even go out of the ambit of the fellow who has more
than 25 acres of land. This was a scheme for small
farmers; so it is not fair to say we are not helping
the small man. We are helping him to improve his
herd. Now that I have pointed this out, I think the hon.
junior member for St. Peter would be satisfied that
the Government is making an effort to the limit of its
resources to assist the small man.

Now the hon. senior member for St. Joseph raised
some interesting points which I will deal with brief-
ly. He asked about cash payments, and the answer to
that is that the Government does not have any control
over telling the Milk Plant whether it should sell milk
cash or on terms. This is a matter of internal admin-
istration. If they feel to do it, it is a matter for the
Directors and internal routine.


The hon. member asked why we should put up in-
dustries. I should just like the hon. senior member
for St. Joseph to knowthat if we close down the Dairy,
600 people are going out of work, and thousands of
dollars invested in the animals would be lost. Mr.
Speaker, there are 117 people employed at the Dairy
Plant itself, and there are approximately 500 people
employed on the 40-odd dairy farms and plantations
producing grasses ..........

Mr. St. JOHN: If the hon. member would give way
on a point of elucidation ......

Mr. SPEAKER: A matter raised by the hon. mem-
ber in his speech?

Mr. St. JOHN: Will the hon. member agree that
it is slightly exaggerated to say that 600 people would
be out of work, because a number of dairies were in
existence before and insteadof selling milk to the
plant they sold directly to the consumer.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid the hon. and learned
member has not elucidated any matter raised by that
hon. member during the course of that hon. member's
speech.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: What I am saying, Mr.
Speaker, is that any industry which is employing600
odd people must be encouraged in a country. You can-
not kill an industry. This is in reply to the hon. senior


member for St. Joseph who said that we should have
gone back to the old state since the Pine Hill Dairy
is not living up to expectations. We have to think of the
people employed. If you ask why put up industries and
say it costs more, I would say it is better to bring
an industry which is employing a reasonable number
of people even at the expense of paying more for the
commodity. Take for instance, milk. We have been
importing in this country in milk products something
like $4 million a year. This results in an adverse ef-
fect on the balance of payments of this country, and
we are exporting capital. When we have the Milk
Plant operating here, we are keeping capital in the
country and enhancing the economy of the country
rather than reducing it by exporting capital. So it is
better to keep capital in the country even though it
costs a little more to do so rather than subsidise la-
bour in another country, because whenever we im-
port we are subsidising labour in another country,
and we have 20,000 people unemployed in Barbados.

Why do you think we are encouraging diversifi-
cation? We are importing into this country $34
million a year in foodstuffs, $11 million of which are
in vegetables and vegetable commodities. We are
satisfied in the Ministry of Agriculture that by
diversification we can reduce this amount con-
siderably, and when it is reduced the $11 million will
circulate in the country. If we grow more vegetables
in this country, the incidence oflabouris increased.
There are people who would get three days' work in
the out-of-crop season who when vegetables and food
crop are planted get six or seven days' work.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen any-
thing in this relative to diversification or three days'
work. We are dealing with setting up a Board to con -
trol milk.

Mr. SPEAKER: Point made.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, en-
couragement of the dairy industry in this country is
the main effort of the Government in an agricultural
diversification programme, and this is what Govern-
ment exerts the greatest amount of energy on. Any-
how, Mr. Speaker, I was just pointing out to the hon.
member that it is better to produce your foodstuffs
locally. The encouragement of the dairy industry will
result in our importing in this country less beef. We
are encouraging the establishment of a pasturage to
keep steer; therefore the high incident of meat which
is imported would be reduced, and insteadof sending
money to Argentina or New Zealand or Australia,
it will remain here and find work for some of the
20,000 unemployed people in this country. The hon.
member can therefore see the benefits of encouraging
industry and establishing a dairy industry in Bar-
bados.

I have already answered the hon. member on the
question of loans made by the Government. On the
question of why the Government took shares, the Gov-
ernment took shares not necessarily because it
wanted to do so, but the people told the Government
that they were willing to come in, and they wanted






1586


-Government to show its interest and be in a position
to know what is going on with first hand information
on the operation of the Plant. They asked the Govern-
ment to take a quarter of the shares, see that the
people of the country take a quarter and they would
take half the shares, so that the confidence of the
people would be ensured.

Now I want to take up the hon. member on a
point and it is this: despite all the difficulties which
the Plant had to face in its first two years of
operation, despite the fact that it had an operational
loss of $181,000 in the first nine months, in the
second year of operation which is 1967, January
to December they made a net profit of $76,000,
but they had to meet the losses of the year before
of $181,000; so the Balance Sheet will showan over-
all loss of something like $105,000. The position is
that on the operations of the Milk Plant last year they
did make a profit; so we cannot say they are going
down the line.
6.50 p.m.

(An Hon. Member: It made profit from selling
imported milk.) The Milk Plant only had authority to
import milk during the latter part of last year.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of eluci-
dation, a point of information, or a point of request
or whatever it is.........

Mr. SPEAKER: There is nopointof information.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Speaker, I want him to
answer a question which I asked him. What he has
just said is only an illustration of what we have
been saying. The exorbitance of the profit they were
getting on the sale of the milk allowed them to make
$76,000 in a short space of time.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member has made
another speech purporting to be a point of order.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, the hon.
senior member for Christ Church raised the question
of the Chemistry Department. As far as lam aware,
we do not have any shortage of apparatus in the
Chemistry Department in the Ministry of Agricul-
ture. The position is that you have to decide whether
you are going to listen to people who are mentally
equipped to answer you in certain questions or not.

Mr. Speaker, I beg to move that this Bill be now
read a second time.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker; I beg to
move that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and
the House go into Committee on the Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.


The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division, and Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the
House went into Committee, Mr. YEARWOOD in the Chair.
Clause 1 was called and passed.

Clause 2 was called.
Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to move that
Clause 2 stand part.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. SM[TH: Mr. Chairman, with regard to
Clause 2, it is stated:

milk" means fresh, clean, unadulterated lacteal

secretion from the complete milkingof healthy
cows. '

Now, when it is adulterated up there by mixing
the powdered milk, evaporated milk and everything
together, are you still going to call it clean milk
from cows? The Minister admits that they are import-
ing milk; he admits that they cannot get this thing
fixed right, and yet he is telling us that:

"milk" means fresh, clean, unadulterated lac-
teal milk from the complete milking of healthy
cows."

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, Iwould
like to draw the hon. member's attention to the
definition of "milk product". What he is saying about
evaporated milk and so on is taken care of under
milk products. You will see it in the interpretation
clause. Milk in this clause refers to fresh milk, but
what he is dealing with is the question of milk pro-
ducts, which definition is set out further down.

Mr. SMITH: I am dealing now with milk. You just
told me that the Government is lending money to buy
cows and to encourage people to get fresh milk. You
also told me that you cannot compel the people up
there to certain things regarding the price of milk. In
other words, I feel that the importation of evaporated
milk should be stopped. Let us expand the dairy
industry by bringing in cows. In other words, do not
give them a licence to import evaporated milk. Give
the merchants the licence, if needs be. Do not allow
them to import evaporated milk, but allow them to do
everything with the fresh milk. If it is necessary to
import evaporated milk, you should take it in through
the other source. If you allow them to import
evaporated milk and carry it up there, we would not
be sure that we are getting fresh, clean milk from
cows. As long as they are allowed to import milk
and make so many thousands of dollars, they are
going to lose interest in the processing and the ex-
pansion of the milk industry. The cheapest way out
and the quickest way to make money they will take,
and we will be robbedof our clean, fresh cow's
milk.
The question that Clause 2 stand part was put and
resolved in the affirmative without division.






1587


Clauses 3, 4 and 5 were called and passed.
7 p.m
Clause 6 was called and passed.
Clause 7 was called. It reads as follows:-
"There shall be paid for the issue or renewal
of a dairy keeper's licence such fees as may be
prescribed."

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, I beg
to move that Clause 7 stand part of the Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, I see thatthis is
the provision which deals with the licence. Clauses
5 and 6 deal with the refusal of the authority to grant
a licence. I do not see any provision for appealing
in this Clause. (Hon. N. W. BOXILL: What is in the
Schedule?) There should be a provision for appealing.
I see that provision later on in respect of other
things, but I do not see anything here about appealing
in respect of the licensing of dairy keepers.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, the
position is that the Authority for granting the licence
is the Chief Agricultural Officer. If he refuses to
grant a licence to a person, that person has the
right to appeal to the Minister.

Mr. St. JOHN: All right.
The question that Clause 7 stand part of the Bill was
put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

Clause 8 was called. It reads as follows:
"A dairy keeper's licence may be cancelled by
the appropriate authority if -

(a) the licensee fails to observe any of the
conditions subject to which the licence is
granted;

(b) the licensee disposes of or ceases to keep
milch animals;

(c) the licensee requests the appropriate au-
thority in writing to cancel the licence;

(d) the licensee dies."

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to move, Mr.
Chairman, that Clause 8 stand part of the Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, speaking of a dairy
keeper's licence, this Clause says that it may be
cancelled by the appropriate authority if the licensee
fails to observe any of the conditions subject to which
the licence is granted. What I am concerned about is
this; if this is going to be the situation with the
dairy keeper's licence, what is going to be the situa-
tion with regard to the Milk Plant monopoly?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, there-
ply to that question is this; the Milk Plant comes in


*that part of Part 3 of this Bill which deals with the
milk processors. The Milk Plant has to get the same
licence, and it has to adhere to the same conditions,
under the rules governing the granting of this licence.
If they do not adhere to these rules, then the licence
is taken from them. It should be noted that the term
"milk processor" is not necessarily limited to the
Milk Plant or to any person who is processing milk.

Mr. St. JOHN: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member
has made an interesting point. As I understand his
definition, the term "milk processor" is so wide
that it includes not only people who are dealing with
milk but with those who are dealing with ice cream
and that sort of thing. What I want to be sure of is
that your existing ice cream producers are still
going to continue to get their licences. The former
senior member for St. George used to do some milk
processing and now he is not allowedto do milk pro-
cessing, in the sense of importing pasteurised or
evaporated milk, from imported milk powder because
of the decision to grant the concession to the Pine
Hill Dairy. We want a policy statement on this,
because sometimes he has difficulty getting a licence
to import milk for the purpose of doing his ice
cream business, and there are a lot of other people
who are dealing in ice cream too.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, pro-
vided that the applicant satisfies the conditions as
set out by the Regulations which are to be printed
relative to this Bill, he is entitled to be given a
licence. It does not matter whether he is the senior
member for St. George or whether he is a member of
the Democratic Labour Party or of whatever Party.
The position is that if he satisfies the conditions,
then he qualifies for a licence. The same person, of
which the hon. member has just spoken, some time
ago met with difficulty in getting milk powder, and
I quite well remember that the Hon. Minister of
Trade and I saw to it that he got his milk powder.
Therefore, it is not a question of personality; it is
a question of principle and of adhering to the Rules
and Regulations in respect of this Bill; as long as
those conditions are satisfied, anybody is entitled
to a licence.

Mr. St. JOHN: It is not a generalised licence.
You mean that you will continue the policy of saying
that you will only grant a milk processing licence to
the Pine Hill Dairy for the purpose of importing milk
from abroad and re-constituting it; but you will
grant other people licences for other milk products
like ice cream and cheese or whatever they want to
make. That is what I want to know or whether you
are saying that you will not grant a monopoly for
making re-constituted milk, to be sold just as you
would buy cows' milk and ice cream and anything
like that, only to the Pine Hill Dairy.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, as I
have already explained, all these things are covered
in the Regulations. For example, there may be a case
of let us say we had in Barbados an industry for the
manufacture of lumber. This industry is expected to
be given a certain amount of protection. It is a






1588


question of giving pioneer status to people to process
corn meal or flour in this country, and it depends
on the needs of the country and the number of fac-
tories to be allowed. If there is a market for more
than one or two or three factories, all of these things
are taken into consideration. It depends upon the
demand for the product.

Mr. St. JOHN: Therefore, I am correct in say-
ing that a milk seller's licence will be issued, some
for some particular products and some for other
milk products. For instance, the Pine Hill Dairy could
have a milk products processor's licence in respect
of milk products, but you can restrict Bico or Buddies
only to the manufacture of ice cream and ice cream
products. (A MEMBER: That is so.)

The question that Clause 8 stand part of the Bill was
put and resolved in theaffirmative without division.

Clauses 9 to 11 were called and passed.

Part III was called.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to move, Mr.
Chairman, that Part III stand part of the Bill.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, there is just one point
here relative to Clause 13 (a) which refers to the
standard of the premises and equipment beingused or
proposed to be used by the applicant. Are we to under-
stand that the Board is going to appoint the type of
inspectors with the type of knowledge necessary, that
you would not put people to inconvenience? For in-
stance, is somebody going to reject your machinery
because it is not from the firm he represents and
that type of thing? That is what we would like to
know.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, if a
person is denied a licence through the appropriate
authority, which is the Chief Agricultural Officer,
because of his not having certain equipment, he has
the right of appeal to the Minister; and if the Minister
is satisfied that there is a hardship brought upon
the man because he has an enamel bucket in which
he was milking and which is seamless, and the Milk
Plant or the Chief Agricultural Officer felt or told
him that he should have a galvanised bucket which
is seamless, as long as the Minister is satisfied
that a man is producing wholesome milk, he will get
his licence.

Mr. HINDS: Does, this mean that we will have
additional staff in the Ministry of Agriculture to cope
with this aspect of the work?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: The answer to that is
"Yes". The Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry
of Health.

The question that Part III stand part of the Bill was put
and resolved in the affirmative without division.


7.10 p.m.


Part IV was called and passed.

Part V was called.


Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I beg to move that
Part V stand part.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. St. JOHN: I asked the Minister on the
second reading about the profit that the Pine Hill
Dairy makes per case. I said that it was $3.00. The
Hon. Minister said that it was not $3.00. What is it?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: The Hon. Minister of
Trade gave the figures. He said it was $2.56.

Mr. St. JOHN: Now, as regards your Milk Ad-
visory Board, as I understand it, I hope it will re-
flect the point of view of the producer, the distribu-
tor, the wholesaler and in particular, the small
retailer in the country areas who does notmake any-
thing out of it and has to give credit.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I will promise the hon.
member that when the appointment of this Board is
made, I will take all these things into consideration
and select people of all sectors that have to do with
milk, whether it is selling milk or otherwise. All
these sectors will be represented on the Board.

Mr. HINDS: Mr. Chairman, I see here at 33 (2):
"The Minister shall appoint as Chairman of the
Board a person who has no pecuniary or other in-
terest in the production or selling of milk or milk
products."

Now, I understand what that means, but what I
would like to know is what about the Minister himself
who might have some interest?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: That Minister is not
going to be the Chairman of the Board.

The question that Part V stand part was put and resolved
in the affirmative without division.

Part VI was called and passed.

On the motion of Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS, seconded by
Hon. C. E. TALMA, Mr. CHAIRMAN reported the passing of
one Bill in Committee.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER resumed the Chair and reported
accordingly.

On separate motions of Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS,
seconded by Hon. C. E. TALMA, the Bill was read a third
time and passed.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
I want it to go on record that I thank the Opposition
for their co-operation in assisting us in getting
through with this Bill.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER left the Chair and Mr. SPEAKER
took the Chair.






1589


Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Speaker, this concludes
Government Business for the day.

ADJOURNMENT

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this House stands adjourned until Tuesday, 30th
April, 1968, at 2.30 in the evening.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

Mr. St. JOHN: Yes, Sir, Your Honour promised
to give a ruling as to the absence from the Order Paper
of a Select Committee.

Mr. SPEAKER: I never give a ruling between
9.p.m. and 10 a.m. I have a certain amount of hours
for sleep. The matter will have my consideration.

Before I adjourn the House, assumingthe motion
will be passed, I would like to say that the question of
Standing Orders of this House is giving me considera-
ble thought during this session, and between nowand
whatever date this House resumes, it has occurred
to me that if certain hon. members would be willing
to associate themselves with me hon. members
from both sides of the Chamber we might consider
the revision of Standing Orders.


I would be grateful if the Committee would asso-
ciate itself with me in respect of that subject matter.
I would ask certain hon. members if they would be
associated with me. These hon. members are:-

My colleague, the Deputy Speaker, (Mr.
Sargeant);


The Chairman of Committees, (Mr. Yearwood);

The Hon. Leader of the House, (Hon. J. C.
Tudor);

The Hon. Acting Leader of the Opposition, (Mr.
St. John);

The hon. junior member for the City, (Mr.
Lynch);

The hon. senior member for St. Joseph, (Mr.
Smith);

The Hon. and Learned member for St. Thomas,
(Mr. J. M. G. M. Adams).
7.20 p.m.

I also invite to serve the hon. junior member
for Christ Church and the hon. senior member for
St. George.

If those hon. members will associate themselves
with me in Committee to continue the revisionof the
Standing Orders of this Chamber, I would be most
grateful. We would be occupying ourselves to good
advantage before the resumption of this session.

In anticipation, I thank those hon. members who,
I am sure, are prepared to work during the short
recess which is provided.
The question that this House do now adjourn until
Tuesday, 30th April, 1968, at 2.30 p.m. was put and re-
solved in the affirmative without division, and Mr. SPEAKER
adjourned the House accordingly.
7.25 p.m.






Statutory Instruments Supplement No. 3
Supplement to Official Gazette No. 3 dated 9th January, 1969.

S.I. 1969 No. 2 (second publication)
The Post Office Act, 1911

(Act 1911-8)

THE PARCEL POST (RATES) (AMENDMENT)
REGULATIONS, 1968
The Minister in exercise of the powers conferred
on him by section 30 of the Post Office Act, 1911
hereby makes the following Regulations:-
1. These Regulations may be cited as the Parcel
Post (Rates) (Amendment) Regulations, 1968.
2. The Second Schedule to the Parcel Post (Rates)
Regulations, 1960 is hereby amended by inserting
therein in the appropriate alphabetical order and under
the appropriate headings the following words -
"Bermuda ...........50 cents per 1,'2 lb. or part
thereof."
Made by the Minister this 31st day of December,
1968.


NEVILLE W. BOXILL,
Minister of Communications and Works.












32 Q7,q2
611,20







2 STATUTORY INSTRUMENT


,S.I. 1969 No. 3

The Civil Establishment Act, 1949 (1949-5)

THE CIVIL ESTABLISHMENT (GENERAL) (AMEND-
MENT) (NO. 7) ORDER, 1968

The Prime Minister in exercise of the powers con-
ferred on him by section 3 of the Civil Establishment
Act, 1949, hereby makes the following Order -
1. This Order may be cited as the Civil Establish-
ment (General) (Amendment) (No. 7) Order, 1968.
L.N. 134 of 2. In Schedule A to the Civil Establishment
1966. (General) Order, 1966, there shall be made the amend-
ments directed to be made therein by the Schedule to
this Order.

3. (a) In respect of the amendments directed to be
made by Part I of the Schedule to this Order,
this Order shall be deemed to have come
into operation on the 1st April, 1968;

(b) In respect of the amendments directed to be
made by Part II of the Schedule to this Order,
this Order shall come into operation on the
1st December, 1968.








STATUTORY INSTRUMENT 3


SCHEDULE

PART I


Reference to place for
making amendment

17. MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE,
LABOUR AND NATIONAL INSURANCE


(Paragraph 2)


Amendment


(ii) Science and Agriculture
Item 9


Item 12


Items 13, 14 and 15


20. PORT MANAGEMENT


After Item 19


27. GENERAL SERVICE


Item 10


Delete and substitute -
"9. Senior Laboratory Assistant
G.7-5 ...................... 71
9A. Laboratory Assistant
G. 11-9 (E.B.) G.8.........
Delete

Renumber as Items 12, 13 and 1.1
respectively.



Add -
"20. Driver/Messenger ..... L.3 ...... 1"



Substitute the figures "6G3" for the fig-
ures "64" appearing in the column
headed "Number of Offices" opposite to
the office "Messenger".


PART II


Amendment


Delete and substitute -
"7. Senior Records Sorter.....G.9 .... 1"
Add -
"8. Records Sorter............. L.3..... 1"


Reference to place for
making amendment

10. ACCOUNTANT GENERAL


Item 7

After Item 7







4 STATUTORY INSTRUMENT


SCHEDULE Cont'd.


Item 10


Amendment


Substitute the figures "64" for the fig-
ures "63" appearing in the column
headed "Number of Offices" opposite to
the office "Messenger".


Made as aforesaid this 5th day of December, 1968.




ERROL W. BARROW
Prime Minister.


(Approved by Resolution No. 113/1968, Gazetted 9/1/69)


Reference to place for
making amendment

27. GENERAL SERVICE







Supplement to Official Gazette dated 9th January, 1969.


CARIBBEAN METEOROLOGICAL COUNCIL
(INCORPORATION) ACT, 1968-52
Arrangement of Sections
1. Short title.
2. Interpretation.
3. Incorporation.
4. Commencement.











BARBADOS


I assent,
A. WINSTON SCOTT
Governor-General.
30th December, 1968.

1968-52

An Act to incorporate the Caribbean Meteorological
Council.
(23rd August, '196 ) Commencement.
BE IT ENACTED by the Queen's Most Excellent
Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the
Senate and House of Assembly of Barbados and by the
authority of the same as follows:-

1. This Act may be cited as the Caribbean Meteo- short title.
rological Council (Incorporation) Act, 1968.
2. For the purposes of this Act Interpretation.
"Agreement" means the agreement providing
for the continued operation of the Caribbean
Meteorological Service established thereby,








2 CARIBBEAN METEOROLOGICAL COUNCIL (INCORPORATION) ACT, 1968-52


which was entered into by the governments
of Antigua, Barbados, British Guiana, British
Honduras, the British Virgin Islands, the
Cayman Islands, Dominica, Grenada, Mont-
serrat, Saint Christopher, Nevis and Anguilla,
Saint Lucia and Saint Vincent acting with the
authority and consent of the government of
the United Kingdom, and the governments of
Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago and which
entered into force on the 2nd April, 1966 and
any agreement from time to time in force in
substitution therefore;

"Caribbean Meteorological Council" means
the Caribbean Meteorological Council es-
tablished and constituted by the Agreement.
Incorporation. 3. The Caribbean Meteorological Council shall
be deemed to be a body corporate established by this
Act and the provisions of section 21 of the Interpreta-
1966-10. tion Act, 1966 shall apply thereto.
Commencement. 4. This Act shall be deemed to have come into
operation on the 23rd August, 1967.

Read three times and passed the House of Assem-
bly this seventeenth day of December one thousand
nine hundred and sixty-eight.

J. E. THEODORE BRANCKER
Speaker.
Read three times and passed the Senate this
twenty-seventh day of December one thousand nine
hundred and sixty-eight.

E. S. ROBINSON
President.







Supplement to Official Gazette dated 9th January, 1969.


EVIDENCE (AMENDMENT) ACT, 1968-53

Arrangement of Sections
1. Short title.
2. Section 14 of Act 1905-4 repealed and replaced.
3 Saving.












BARBADOS.


I assent,
A. WINSTON SCOTT
Governor-General.
30th December, -1968.


1968-53

An Act to amend the Evidence Act, 1905.
(9th January, 1969) Commencement.

BE IT ENACTED by the Queen's Most Excellent
Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the
Senate and House of Assembly of Barbados and by
the authority of the same as follows:-

1. This Act may be cited as the Evidence (Amend'- Short title.
ment) Act, 1968.

2. Section 14 of the Evidence Act, 1905 is here- Section 14 of
by repealed and the following section substituted AOt 1905-4
repealed and
therefore replaced.

**Mannerof 14.(1) All deeds, wills and other
execution and
proo of certain writings and all declarations and af-
documents. fidavits purporting -








EVIDENCE (AMENDMENT) ACT, 1968-53


Saving. 3. All deeds, wills and other writings and all
declarations and affidavits executed, acknowledged,
proved, declared or deposed to in any of the ways
provided for in section 14 as contained in section 2
of this Act on or after the 30th November, 1966 and
before the commencement of this Act shall be deemed
to have been sufficiently executed, acknowledged,
proved, declared or deposed to and shall be received
as evidence in any court and judicial notice shall
be taken of such deeds, wills and other writings,
declarations and affidavits and of any seal or sig-
nature, as the case may be, of any person mentioned
in that section attached, appended or subscribed there-
to.
Read three times and passed the House of Assem-
bly this seventeenth day of December one thousand
nine hundred and sixty-eight.

J. E. THEODORE BRANCKER
Speaker.

Read three times and passed the Senate this
twenty-seventh day of December one thousand nine
hundred and sixty-eight.

E. S. ROBINSON
President.






Supplement to Official Gazette dated 9th january, 1969.


SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54

Arrangement of Sections
1. Short title.
2. Interpretation.
3. Establishment and Constitution of Board.
4. Meeting summoned at initiative of chairman or
on request of two members.
5. Staff.
6. Establishment and constitution of Fund.
7. Functions of the Board. Investment.
8. Regulations.
9. Accounts and Audit.
10. Report.
11. Review of operation of Act.
12. Protection of members of the Board.
13. Application.
14. Rate of retirement pension. Receipt of benefits
under Act 1964-3 not to debar from pension
under this Act.

15. Pensions not as of right.
16. Prohibition of assignment of pension.
17. Applications.
18. Time and manner of benefits.
19. Power to obtain information.
20. Manner of obtaining information and particulars.
21. Obligation to furnish information and particulars.
22. Obligation to produce records etc.







(ii)



23. Offences.
24. Restriction on publication of information.
25. Commencement.









BARBADOS


I assent,
A. WINSTON SCOTT
Governor-General.
30th December, 1968.



1968-54




An Act to provide for the establishment, of a
Provident Fund out of which prescribed benefits may
be paid to sugar workers and for matters connected
therewith and incidental thereto.
(By Proclamation) commencement.

BE IT ENACTED by the Queen's Most Excellent
Majesty by and with the advice and consent of the
Senate and House of Assembly of Barbados and by
the authority of the same as follows:-
1. This Act may be cited as the Sugar Workers Short title.
(Provident Fund) Act, 1968.







SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


Intenpretaton. 2. For the purposes of this Act -

"date of retirement" in relation to a sugar
worker to whom this Act applies means such
date as the Board may determine to be the
date on which such sugar worker has re-
tired;

"employer" in relation to any sugar worker
means the owner or management of any
plantation, sugar factory, cane syrup plant,
warehouse or installation for the storage of
sugar or molasses, as the case may be, in
relation to whose business as such the
sugar worker is employed;

"licensed bank" means a bank licensed under
1963-45 the Banking Act, 1963;

"Minister" means the Minister responsible for
labour;
"permanent disability" in relation to a sugar
worker to whom this Act applies means such
permanent disability by reason of any in-
firmity of mind or body from continuing in
employment as a sugar worker as is proved
to the satisfaction of the Board;
"retirement pension" means a pension which
may be granted and paid to a sugar worker
under section 14 (1);

"sugar worker" means any person employed
under a contract of service or apprenticeship
with an employer whether the contract is







SUGAI WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


written or oral, expressed or implied, being
a person employed -

(a) in the cultivation, reaping or trans-
portation of sugar canes by the owner
or management of any plantation exceed-
ing 25 acres in area;

(b) in or about any sugar factory or cane
syrup plant in the operation or main-
tenance thereof or in work for any pur-
poses connected therewith or incidental
thereto;

(c) in the transportation of sugar and mo-
lasses from any sugar factory or cane
syrup plant to any warehouse or installa-
tion for the storage thereof; and

any other person of any class declared by the
Minister, after consultation with the Board,
by order subject to negative resolution to be
a sugar worker for the purposes of this Act;

"the Board" means the Sugar Workers' Provi-
dent Fund Board established under section 3;

"the Fund" means the Sugar Workers' Provi-
dent Fund established under section 6.

3.(1) For the purposes of this Act there shall be Establishment
and Constitu-
established a Board to be known as the Sugar Work- tiono Board.
ers' Provident Fund Board.

(2) The Board shall consist of-

(i) the officer from time to time law-
fully discharging the functions






SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


of Chief Labour Officer, who shall
be Chairman;

(ii) three members to be appointed by
the Minister on the nomination of
the Sugar Producers' Federation of
Barbados;

(iii) three members to be appointed by
the Minister on the nomination of
Barbados Workers Union.

(3) A member of the Board other than the Chair-
man shall, subject to the provisions of subsections
(10) and (11), hold office for such period not exceed-
ing two years as the Minister may direct in the in-
strument appointing such member, but such member
shall be eligible for re-appointment.

(4) The Minister may appoint in accordance with
the provisions of subsection (2) any person as a mem-
ber of the Board to act temporarily in the place of any
member of the Board in the case of the absence or
inability to act of such member.

(5) The powers of the Board shall not be affected
by any vacancy in the membership thereof.

(6) The Chairman shall preside at all meetings
of the Board at which he is present, and in his ab-
sence the members present and constituting a quorum
shall elect a temporary Chairman from among their
number.

(7) At any meeting of the Board four members
shall form a quorum:







SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


Provided that at a meeting of the Board there shall
be no quorum unless there are present at that meeting
at least one member appointed in accordance with
paragraph (ii) of subsection (2) and at least one mem-
ber appointed in accordance with the provisions of
paragraph (iii) of that subsection.

(8) The decisions of the Board at any meeting
shall be by a majority of votes.

(9) Minutes of each meeting shall be recorded
and kept by such person as the Board may appoint
and shall be confirmed by the Board and signed by
the Chairman or temporary Chairman, as the case may
be, at the next meeting.

(10) Any member of the Board other than the
Chairman may at any time resign his office by in-
strument in writing addressed to the Chairman, and
upon the date of the receipt by the Chairman of such
instrument that member shall cease to be a member
of the Board.

(11) The Minister may at any time revoke the
appointment of any member of the Board appointed
by him if he thinks it expedient so to do.

4. (1) The Chairman of the Board may at any time Meeting sum-
moned at
summon a meeting and on requisition signed by any initiative of
Chairman or on
two members of the Board shall summon a meeting of hreqea of two
the Board within seven days after receipt by him of members.
the requisition.

(2) A requisition under subsection (1) shall
state the object for which the meeting is required to
be summoned.






SUGARWORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


staff. 5. Provision may be made by order under section
1949-5. 3 of the Civil Establishment Act, 1949 for establish-
ing the offices which shall constitute the offices on
the establishment of the Board, which offices shall
for all purposes be deemed to be offices in the public
service.

Establishment 6.(1) For the purposes of this Act there shall be
and oonstitu- established a Fund to be known as the Sugar Workers'
tion of Fund.
Provident Fund.

(2) The Fund shall be kept by the Chairman of
the Sugar Industry Price Stabilization Reserve Board,
established under the provisions of the Sugar Industry
(Rehabilitation, Price Stabilization and Labour Wel-
1947-13. fare) Act, 1947, in a separate account at a licensed
bank approved by the Minister and no amount shall be
authorised to be paid therefrom save on the written
requisition of the Sugar Workers Provident Fund Board.

(3) The Fund shall consist of -

(a) all monies received by the Accountant
General by virtue of the Sugar Industry
1964-41. (Provident Fund Levy) Act, 1964 which
are hereby directed to be paid over to the
account of the Fund; and

(b) such sums as may from time to time be
paid to its account out of -

(i) the Price Stabilization Reserve
Fund;

(ii) the Labour Welfare"Fund;

in accordance with regulations made
under the Sugar Industry (Rehabilitation,







SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


Price Stabilization and Labour Welfare)
Act, 1947 for the purposes of this Act.
7.(1) It shall be the duty of the Board, subject to Functions of
the provisions of this Act, to provide out of the in- the Board.
terest derived from the Fund for -

(a) the payment of retirement pensions to
sugar workers to whom this Act applies
in the amount and in the manner provided
by section 14;

(b) the payment on the death of any sugar
worker to whom this Act applies of a
funeral grant in the manner provided
by section 14; and

(c) such other expenses as may be incurred
in administering and otherwise carrying
out the provisions of this Act:

Provided that, if the Board thinks it expedient,
it may provide for the payment out of the Fund of
retirement pensions under paragraph (a) to sugar
workers to whom this Act applies whose date of re-
tirement occurred between the 1st January, 1956 and
the commencement of this Act in accordance with the
proviso to section 14 (1).

(2) Any monies forming part of the Fund may Investment.
from time to time be placed by the Sugar Industry
Price Stabilization Reserve Board on deposit at in-
terest with a licensed bank or may be invested in any
securities approved by the Minister.

.(3) Any monies which have been paid to the
Board under this Act may, until disbursed in accord-







SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


ance with the provisions thereof, be invested by the
Board in any manner provided for by subsection (2)
in respect of the Fund.

Regulations. 8. Subject to the provisions of this Act, the Board
may, with the approval of the Minister, make regula-
tions -

(a) governing the proceedings of the Board
and the manner and transaction of its
business;

(b) prescribing the manner in which docu-
ments, cheques and instruments of any
description shall be signed and executed
for the purposes of this Act;

(c) generally as to all matters necessary
for the proper keeping and control of
any monies paid to the Board;

(d) generally for the exercise of their func-
tions under this Act;

(e) generally for giving effect to the pro-
visions of this Act.
Accounts and 9. (1) The Chairman of the Sugar Industry Price
Audit. Stabilization Reserve Board and the Chairman of the
Sugar Workers' Provident Fund Board shall each keep,
in respect of his functions under this Act, proper
accounts and adequate financial and other records in
relation thereto to the satisfaction of and in accordance
with any directions of the Auditor General or any
auditor appointed under subsection (2) for the purpose
of auditing such accounts and shall prepare a statement
of accounts in respect of each calendar year.







SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


(2) Such accounts shall as soon as may be after
the end of each calendar year be audited by the Audit-
or General or by an auditor appointed for the purpose
by the Minister.

(3) The said Chairmen and all other persons
engaged in the administration of the Fund shall grant
to the auditor auditing the accounts of the Fund under
subsection (2) access to all books, documents and cash
of the Fund and shall give to him on request all such
information as maybe within their knowledge in relation
to the operation of the Board.
10. (1) The Board shall not later than six months Report.
after the end of each calendar year submit to the Min-
ister a report containing -
(a) an account of the transactions of the
Board throughout the preceding year
in such detail as the Minister may direct;
and
(b) a statement of the accounts of the Board
audited in accordance with the provisions
of section 9.
(2) A copy of the report together with a copy of
the auditor's report shall be printed and laid on the
tables of the Senate and House of Assembly and pub-
lished in the Official Gazette not later than three
months after the receipt thereof by the Minister.

11. The Board shall review the operation of this Review of
Act during the period ending on the 31st December, operation
1971 and thereafter during the period ending with the
31st December in every third year and on each such
review make a report to the Minister on the financial
condition of the Fund and its adequacy or otherwise







SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


to support the benefits payable under this Act having
regard to its other liabilities thereunder.

protection 12. No action, prosecution or other proceeding
of memb rs shall be brought or instituted against any member of
of the Board.
the Board in respect of any act done bona fide in
pursuance or execution or intended execution of this Act.

Application. 13. (1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to
any sugar worker retiring -
(a) after having attained the age of sixty-
five years; or
(b) through permanent disability before at-
taining the age of sixty-five years,
who has been continuously in employment as a sugar
worker for the ten consecutive years immediately pre-
ceding his date of retirement at the minimum rate of
sixty working days in each such year notwithstanding
that his date of retirement occurred before the com-
mencement of this Act:
Provided that
(i) any period during which a sugar
worker to whom this Act applies is
proved to the satisfaction of the
Board to have been ill shall not be
deemed for the purposes of this sub-
section to constitute a break in his
period of employment;
(ii) any period of service of any such
sugar worker which has been
taken into account in computing the
amount of any severance payment
made to him under the provisions of
the Sugar Factory Workers Severance







SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


Payments Act 1965 shall not be 1965-7
taken into account in computing his
period of employment for the pur-
poses of this subsection.

(2) This Act shall not apply to any sugar worker
whose date of retirement occurred before the 1st Jan-
uary, 1956.

14. (1) The Board may grant and pay to any sugar Rate of re-
worker to whom this Act applies a retirement pension tirement
at the rate of three dollars and sixty cents per week pension.
(a) in the case of a sugar worker whose date
of retirement occurred between the 1st
January, 1956 and the commencement
of this Act, from the date of his retire-
ment or the commencement of the period
of two hundred and sixty weeks ending
on the date of the commencement of this
Act, whichever is the later, until his
death;
(b) in the case of a sugar worker whose date
of retirement occurs after the commence-
ment of this Act, from the date of his
retirement until his death.
(2) The receipt of any benefit under the Work- Receipt of
men's Compensation Act, 1963 or any like benefit under benefits un
der Act
any enactment replacing the same shall not debar any 1964-3 not
sugar worker to whom this Act applies from obtaining to debar
the grant or payment of a retirement pension under this on o ner
Act. this Act.
(3) Where any sugar worker to whom this Act
applies is in receipt of or becomes entitled to the
payment of an old age contributory grant or pension
specified in section 21 (1) (e) of the National Insur-
ance and Social Security Act, 1966 1966-15







SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


(a) if that grant or pension is equal to or
greater than a retirement pension under
this Act, he shall not be granted or paid
a retirement pension under this Act;
(b) if that grant or pension is less than a
retirement pension under this Act, he
may be granted a retirement pension
under this Act at a rate per week not
exceeding the difference between the
retirement pension under this Act and
that grant or pension.

(4) Where any sugar worker mentioned in para-
graph (a) of subsection (1) has died before the com-
mencement of this Act or dies thereafter without being
granted and paid a retirement pension, the amount of
such pension which may have been granted and paid
to him under this Act may be paid in a lump sum by
the Board to his legal personal representatives or to
such of his dependants as the Board may think fit.
(5) For the purposes of subsection (4) the ex-
pression dependantss", in relation to a deceased sugar
worker mentioned in that subsection, means persons
who -
(a) are children of such sugar worker;
(b) were wholly or in part dependent upon
the earnings of such sugar worker at the
time of his death and are -
(i) members of such sugar worker's
family other than his children;
(ii) illegitimate children or grandchildren
or such sugar worker; or







SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


(iii) parents or grandparents of whom such
sugar worker is a child or grandchild
whether legitimate or illegitimate;
(c) not being persons referred to in para-
graph (b), prove to the satisfaction of
the Board that they were wholly or in
part dependent upon the earnings of such
sugar worker at the time of his death,
provided that a person shall not be
deemed to be in part dependent upon the
earnings of such sugar worker unless
such person was dependent partially on
contributions from such worker for the
provision of the ordinary necessaries
of life suitable for persons in his class
and position.

(6) In the case of the death of any sugar worker Funeral
benefit.
to whom this Act applies the Board may grant and pay
to the person who has met or is liable to meet the cost
of the funeral of such deceased sugar worker a funeral
grant in the sum of one hundred dollars.

(7) Where -
(a) the person who has met or is liable to
meet the cost of the funeral of the de-
ceased sugar worker cannot be found; or
(b) the cost of the funeral is less than the
amount of the grant mentioned in sub-
section 6,
the grant or, as the case may be, the remainder thereof
may be paid to such person as the Board may decide.
(8) No funeral grant shall be granted or paid
under subsection (6) in any case where a funeral grant
is payable under section 21 (1) (d) of the National
Insurance and Social Security Act, 1966.







SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


pensions 15. No sugar worker to whom this Act applies
not as of shall have absolute right to any retirement pension
right. payable under this Act.

prohibition 16. (1) A retirement pension granted under this Act,
of assign- shall not be assignable or transferable except for the
ment of
pension. purpose of satisfying an order of any court for the
periodical payment of sums of money towards the
maintenance of the wife or former wife or minor child,
whether legitimate or illegitimate of the sugar worker
to whom the retirement pension has been granted.

(2) A retirement pension granted under this Act
shall not be liable to be attached, sequestered or
levied upon for or in respect of any debt or claim
whatsoever.

Applications. 17. All applications for retirement pensions and
funeral grants shall be made in the manner approved
by the Board.
Time and
manner of 18. All retirement pensions and funeral grants
benefits, payable under this Act shall be paid at such time
and in such manner as the Board may approve.
power to
obtain 19. The Board shall have power to require and
informa-
tion. obtain from sugar workers to whom this Act applies
and employers of such sugar workers information and
particulars in respect of any matter related to its
functions under this Act.

Mannerof 20.(1) Information and particulars to be obtained
obtaining
information pursuant to section 19 may be obtained in such manner
and parti- and from such sources as the Board may determine and
cnuir. it shall be the duty of the Board to prepare the sched-
ules, .forms or other documents required for the purpose.

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of the
provisions of subsection (1), the Board may -







SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


(a) require any sugar worker to whom this
Act applies and the employer of any such
sugar worker to furnish to the Board any
information or particulars authorised
to be obtained under this Act which may
be available from the books or records
of such sugar worker or employer;
(b) authorise any person to obtain on behalf
of the Board any information or parti-
culars authorised to be obtained under
this Act.

21. Every person from whom information or par- Obligation
to fumish
ticulars may lawfully be required under section 19 information
and parti-
shall, to the best of his knowledge, when required to cuxars.
do so by the Board or any person authorised in that
behalf by the Board, furnish in accordance with the
instruction contained in or accompanying or having
reference to any schedule, form or other document the
information or particulars specified in that schedule,
form or other document.

22. Any person from whom information or parti- obligation
culars may lawfully be required pursuant to section 20 toproduce
(2)(a) and who is in possession or control of any record
or document containing information or particulars au-
thorised to be obtained under this Act shall, upon the
request of the Board or of any person authorised in
writing in that behalf by the Board,produce to the Board
or to that person the record or document.

23. (1) Any person who tffences.
(a) hinders or obstructs any duly authorised
person in the exercise of any function
conferred or imposed by this Act, or






SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


(b) being a person from whom information or
particulars may lawfully be required
pursuant to section 19 -
(i) refuses or neglects to fill up and
supply the information or parti-
culars required in any schedule,
form or other document, or to comply
with any lawful request to produce
a document or record, or to answer
any question asked him,or to furnish
any information or particulars re-
quired from him under this Act, or
(ii) knowingly makes in any schedule,
form or other document filled up or
supplied, or in any information or
particulars furnished pursuant to
this Act, or in any answer to any
question asked him under the au-
thority of this Act any statement
which is false in any material
particular,
shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary
conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred and
twenty dollars.
Restriction 24. (1) Any person, being a person authorised by
on publica- the Board to carry out any function under this Act, who -
tion of in-
formation.
(a) without the authority of the Board, pub-
lishes or communicates to any person,
otherwise than in the discharge of his
functions under this Act, any information
or particulars obtained by him in pursu-
ance of this Act; or






SUGAR WORKERS (PROVIDENT FUND) ACT, 1968-54


(b) in exercise of such function knowingly
compiles for the use of or issue to the
Board any false information or parti-
culars,
shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary
conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred and
twenty dollars.

(2) The provisions of subsection (1) (a) shall
not apply to the publication or communication of any
information or particulars in the case of or for the' pur-
poses of a prosecution for a contravention of any of
the provisions of this Act.
25. This Act shall come into operation on such commence-
date as the Governor-General may appoint by pro- ment.
clamation.
Read three times and passed the House of Assem-
bly this seventeenth day of December one thousand
nine hundred and sixty-eight.

J. E. THEODORE BRANCKER
Speaker.

Read three times and passed the Senate this
twenty-seventh day of December one thousand nine
hundred and sixty-eight.


E. S. ROBINSON
President.




University of Florida Home Page
© 2004 - 2010 University of Florida George A. Smathers Libraries.
All rights reserved.

Acceptable Use, Copyright, and Disclaimer Statement
Last updated October 10, 2010 - - mvs