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Group Title: Official gazette, Barbados
Title: The official gazette
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00076861/00038
 Material Information
Title: The official gazette
Physical Description: v. : ill. ; 33-42 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Barbados
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: BridgetownBarbados Published by authority
 Subjects
Subject: Law -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Genre: periodical   ( marcgt )
 Notes
General Note: Caption title.
General Note: Supplements issued for some of the numbers.
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Bibliographic ID: UF00076861
Volume ID: VID00038
Source Institution: University of Florida
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Resource Identifier: aleph - 001043625
oclc - 12594829
notis - AFC6434

Table of Contents
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        Page 703
        Page 704
        Page 705
        Page 706
        Page 707
        Page 708
        Page 709
        Page 710
    Supplement: House Assembly Debates for 17th August, 1965
        Page A-996
        Page A-997
        Page A-998
        Page A-999
        Page A-1000
        Page A-1001
        Page A-1002
        Page A-1003
        Page A-1004
        Page A-1005
    Supplement: House Assembly Debates for 24th August, 1965
        Page A-1006
        Page A-1007
        Page A-1008
        Page A-1009
        Page A-1010
        Page A-1011
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        Page A-1021
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        Page A-1023
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Full Text













VOL. Cl


*leJid+a


NO. 52










azteUe


PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY

BRIDGETOWN, BARBADOS, 30TH JUNE, 1966


TABLE OF CONTENTS
Gazette Notices
Acting Appointment: H. L. V. Griffith, Engineer,
to act as Director of Highways and Transport
Assignment: John Husbands, Magistrate assigned
to District "A"................. ...............
Land Acquisition re land at Coleridge Street
for extension of the Public Library..........
Leave: D. A. L. Pile, member, Public Service
Commission............................. .....
Patents: "Improvements relating to Cigar Holders"
"Improvements relating to hinged-lid cartons"
"Manufacture of Detergent Laundry Bars"
Probate Advertisement dated 24th June, 1966.....
Rental of Garrison Savannah..........................
Statement of Currency Notes and Coins for
1st June, 1966.....................................
Trade Marks: "Ampiclox", "Broxil"etc............


703

703

710

703
710
710
704
708
703

709
704-707


House of Assembly Debates for 17th and 24th August, 1965.
Legal Supplement
(L.N. 78) Notice re Paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of sec-
tion 16 of the Post Office Act, 1911 (approved
officials)
(L.N. 79) Notice re subsection (3) of section 16 of the Post
Office Act, 1911 re (bodies and officials).


NOTICE NO. 517

GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Assignment


John Husbands, Magistrate, has been
assigned to District "A" with effect from
1st July, 1966.
X
3Jz. 7a ?s


Acting Appointment

H. L. V. Griffith, Engineer to act as
Director of Highways and Transport, with
effect from 16th to 18th May, 1966.

(M.P. -P. 953 Vol. III)



Leave


D. A. L. Pile, Member, Public Service
Commission, leave of absence with effect
from 30th June to 2nd August, 1966.

(M.P. -.6605/3/T.2)



Rental of Garrison Savannah

The Garrison Savannah has been rented
to T. N. Peirce, Esq., Sir John Chandler, L.
E. R. Gill, Esq., and the Secretary, G. A.
Lewis, Esq., Members of the Barbados Turf
Club Committee for the purpose of holding a
Race Meeting on the 1st, 6th and 13th August,
1966.

(M.P. 3063/S. 2)


mef









OFFIIAL AZETE Jue 30 196


NOTICE NO. 518

TAKE NOTICE


That Philip Morris & Company Limited,
a British Company, whose trade or business
address is 14, Chichester Road, Edmonton,
London, N. 9, England, trading as Manufact-
urers and Merchants, has applied for the
registration of a trade mark in Part "A" of
Register in respect of Manufactured tobacco
and cigarettes, and will be entitled to register
the same after one month from the 30th day
of June 1966 unless some person shall in the
meantime give notice in duplicate to me at
my office of opposition of such registration.
The trade mark can be seen on application at
my office.

Dated this 14th day of June 1966.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of Trade Mark (Ag.)



NOTICE NO. 519

TAKE NOTICE

TEEVA


That Johnson & Johnson, a Company in-
corporated under the laws of the State of New
Jersey, United States of America, whose
trade or business address is 501 George
Street, New Brunswick, New Jersey, United


States of America, has applied for the
registration of a trade mark in Part
"A" of Register in respect of Sanitary Tam-
pons and pharmaceuticals, and will be entitled
to register the same after one month from the
30th day of June 1966 unless some person .
shall in the meantime give notice in duplicate ',L._
to me at my office of opposition of such:re-
gistration. The trade mark can be seen on
application at my office.

Dated this 14th day of June, 1966.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of Trade Mark (Ag.)




NOTICE NO. 520

PUBLIC NOTICE

IPtents Act, 1903-7, Sec. 10


NOTICE is hereby given that COLGATE-
PALMOLIVE COMPANY, a Corporation or-
ganised and existing under the laws of the
State of Delaware, United States of America
having a principal place of business at 300 Park
Avenue, New York, New York 10022, United
States of America hath lodged in this office an
application and complete specification for a
patentunder the Patent Act 1903 (1903-7), for
an invention for "MANUFACTURE OF
DETERGENT LAUNDRY BARS".

Thesaid specification has been accepted
and is open to public inspection at this office.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar (Ag.)


24th June, 1966.
Registrar Office.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


June 30, 1966









june 30, 1966 OFFICIAL GAZETTE


NOTICE NO. 521
TAKE NOTICE

BROXIL

That BEECHAM GROUP LIMITED, trad-
ing also as BEECHAM RESEARCH LABOR-
ATORIES, Manufacturers and Merchants, a
British Company, whose trade or business
address is Beecham House, Great West Road,
Brentford, Middlesex, England; has applied
for the registration of a trade mark in Part
"A" of Register in respect of Antibiotic Pre-
parations, and will be entitled to register the
same after one month from the 30th day of
June 1966 unless some person shall in the
meantime give notice in duplicate to me at
my office of opposition of such registration.
The trade mark can be seen on application at
my office.

Dated this 14th day of June 1966.


C.A.ROCHEFORD
Registrar of Trade Marks (Ag.)



NOTICE NO. 522

TAKE NOTICE

ORBENIN


That BEECHAM GROUP LIMITED, trad-
ing also as BEECHAM RESEARCH LABORA-
TORIES, Manufacturers and Merchants, a
British Company, whose trade or business
address is BeechamHouse, Great West Road,
Brentford, Middlesex, England; has applied
for the registration of a trade mark in Part
"A" of Register in respect of Pharmaceutical
and veterinary preparations containing one or


more penicillins and will be entitled to regis-
ter the same after one month from the 30th
day of June 1966 unless some person shall in
the meantime give notice in duplicate to me
atmy office of opposition of such registration.
The trade mark can be seen on application at
my office.

Dated this 14th day of June 1966.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of Trade Marks (Ag.)





NOTICE NO. 523

TAKE NOTICE


CELBENIN


That BEECHAM GROUP LIMITED, trad-
ing also as BEECHAM RESEARCH LABORA-
TORIES, Manufacturers and Merchants, a
British Company, whose trade or business
address is Beecham House, Great West Road,
Brentford, Middlesex, England; has applied
for the registration of a trade mark in Part
"A" of Register in respect of Antibiotic pre-
parations, and will be entitled to register the
same after one month from the 30th day of
June 1966 unless some person shall in the
meantime give notice in duplicate to me at
my office of opposition of such registration.
The trade mark can be seen on application at
my office.

Dated this 14th day of June 1966.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of Trade Marks (Ag.)


June 30, 1966


OFFICIAL GAZETTE








OFFCIA GAET Jue3,16


NOTICE NO. 524

TAKE NOTICE

AMPICLOX

That BEECHAM GROUP LIMITED, trad-
ing also as BEECHAM RESEARCH LABOR-
ATORIES, Manufacturers and Merchants, a
British Company, whose trade or business
address is Beecham House, Great West Road,
Brentford, Middlesex, England; has applied
for the registration of a trade mark in Part
"A" of Register in respect of Antibiotic pre-
parations, and will be entitled to register the
same after one month from the 30th day of
June 1966 unless some person shall in the
meantime give notice in duplicate to me at
my office of opposition of such registration.
The trade mark can be seen on application at
my office.

Dated this 14th day of June 1966.


C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of Trade Marks (Ag.)


NOTICE NO. 525

TAKE NOTICE

MULTIVENT


That Rembrandt Tobacco Corporation
(Overseas) Limited, a Company organised and
existing under the laws of Switzerland whose
trade or business address is Weinbergstrasse
79, Zurich 8035, Switzerland, has applied for
the registration of a trade mark in Part "A" of
Register in respect of Tobacco, cigarettes
and cigars, and will be entitled to register
the same after one month from the 30th day
of June 1966 unless some person shall in the
meantime give notice in duplicate to me at
my office of opposition of such registration.


The trade mark can be seen on application at
my office.

Dated this 14th day of June, 1966.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of Trade Marks. (Ag.)


NOTICE NO. 526

TAKE NOTICE







That Estee Launder Cosmetics Ltd., a
corporation organized and existing under the
laws of the Province of Ontario, Dominion of
Canada, whose trade or business address is
207 Queens Quay West, City of Toronto, Onta-
rio, Canada, trading as Manufacturers and
Merchants, has applied for the registration
of a trade mark in Part "A" of Register in
respect of Cosmetic and toilet preparations,
namely soap, shampoos, shaving soap and
creams, face powder, body powder, rouge,
suntan lotion, lipstick, mascara, eye brow
pencil, nail polish and nail polish remover,
hair coloring, hair waving and setting prepa-
rations, hair tonic and hair oils, perfumes,
colognes, pre-shave and after-shave lotion,
body deodorants and anti-perspirants, essen-
tial oils, bath oils, mouth wash, toothpaste,
and will be entitled to register the same after
one month from the 30th day of June 1966
unless some person shall in the meantime
give notice in duplicate to me at my office of
opposition of such registration. The trade
mark can be seen on application atmy office.

Dated this 14th day of June 1966.


C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of Trade Mark (Ag.)


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


June 30, 1966


-qqq









Jun 30 96 FIIL AET


NOTICE NO. 527

TAKE NOTICE


That California Packing Corporation, a
corporation organized and existing under the
laws of New York, United States of America,
whose trade or business address is 215 Fre-
montStreet, San Francisco, California, trad-
ing as Manufacturers, has applied for the
trade mark in Part "A" of Register in respect
of Foods, food products and ingredients for
foods (including dietetic, infants' and invalids'
foods), alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages
(including fruit and vegetable juices and fruit
and vegetables drinks, and will be entitled to
register the same after one month from the
30th day of June, 1966 unless some person
shall in the meantime give notice in duplicate
to me at my office of opposition of such re-


gistration. The trade mark can be seen on
application at my office.


Dated this 14th day of June, 1966.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of Trade Mark (Ag.)




NOTICE NO. 528

TAKE NOTICE


PENBRITIN



That BEECHAM GROUP LIMITED, trad-
ing also as BEECHAM RESEARCH LABORA-
TORIES, Manufacturers and Merchants, a
British Company, whose trade or business
address is Beecham House, Great West Road,
Brentford, Middlesex, England; has applied
for the registration of a trade mark in Part
"A" of Register in respect of Antibiotic pre-
parations, and will be entitled to register the
same after one month from the 30th day of
June 1966 unless some person shall in the
meantime give notice in duplicate to me at
my office of opposition of such registration.
The trade mark can be seen on application at
my office.

Dated this 14th day of June 1966.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar of Trade Marks (Ag.)


June 30, 1966


OFFICIAL GAZETTE








708 OFFICIAL GAZETTE June 30, 1966



PROBATE ADVERTISEMENTS

PUBLIC NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that Applications have been made
for the following grants of Probate and Administration namely:--


PROBATE of theWill dated the 5th day of March, 1963 of PERCIVAL ARNOLD CARRING-
TON late of Dash Gap, Bank Hall, in the parish of St. Michaelin this Island, who died
on the26th day of February, 1966, by LOUIE VERNA CARRINGTON, the sole Execu-
trix named in the Will of the said deceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the 25th day of February, 1959 of JOSEPH SEON DAVIS late
of Deane's Village, near Station Hill in the parish of St. Michael in this Island, who
died on the 25th day of April, 1966, by MURIEL ELAINE REID, the sole Executrix
named in the Will of the said deceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the 8th day of May, 1948 of CHARLES AUGUSTUS MURRELL
late of Diamond in the parish of St. Philip in this Island, who died on the 23rd day of
January, 1962, by GRANT ENOCK MURRELL the sole Executor named in the Will of
the said deceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the 11th day of June, 1956 of ROSAMOND INEZ DOUGLAS late
of Enterprise Road in the parish of Christ Church in this Island, who died on the 8th
day of December, 1957, by WINTER ALGERNON CRAWFORD, one of the Executors
named in the Will of the said deceased.

PROBATE of the Will dated the 30th day of October, 1961 of ARTHUR COLLINGS THOMAS
late of Dartford, England, who died on the 20th day of October, 1965, by THOMAS
OTHO DOWDING one of the Executors named in the Will of the said deceased.

LETTERS OF ADMINISTRATION to the Estate of JOHN WILLIAM HARRIS late of Welches
House in the parish of St. Michael in this Island, who died on the loth day of Febru-
ary, 1965, by MICHAEL IAN WESTERN the proposed Administrator.

AND UNLESS CAVEAT is lodged within fourteen days from the date of this Adver-
tisement with the Registrar of the Supreme Court through whom the abovenamed applica-
tions have been made, Probate or Administration will be granted accordingly.


Dated this 24th day of June, 1966.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar (Ag.)









dluu uv lOIvCL



Statement of Currency Notes and Coins in Circulation in the British Caribbean
Territories (Eastern Group) on 1st June, 1966


Average circulation during April, 1966

British Caribbean Currency ...
Demonetised Government notes


Notes
$


Coins
$


13,669,725


6,268,708


$13,669,725


$6,268,708


Notes and Coins in circulation
on 1st June, 1966


Trinidad
Barbados
Guyana
Grenada
St. Vincent
St. Lucia
Dominica
Antigua
St. Kitts


(minus)
(minus)




(minus)
(minus)




(minus)


Montserrat (minus)


... 5,190,914

... ... ... 7,361,835
... ... ... 17,821,211
... ... ... 7,174,100
... ... ... 899,900
... ... ... 1,388,247
... ... ... 649,000
... ... ... 3,931,100
... ... ... 3,089,500
... ... ... 73,100


"Proof Sets" of Coins


Total circulation on 1st June, 1966


$11,571,915


$6,273,883


* Note:- "Minus" means excess of Withdrawals over Issues.


British Caribbean Currency Board
Treasury Chambers,
Port of Spain,
Trinidad, W.I.


A. E. REECE
Executive Commissioner
British Caribbean Currency Board.


2,959,671
927,400
1,279,892
226,100
130,225
160,850
155,925
249,100
155,300
27,550
1,870


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


e nuJ 30 1966








June 30. 1966


NOTICE NO. 482 (third publication)

PUBLIC NOTICE
Patents Act, 1903-7, Sec. 10

NOTICE is hereby given that MARDON
INTERNATIONAL LIMITED, a Company in-
corporated under the laws of Great Britain
and having its principal place of business at
Temple Street, Bristol 1, England, hath lodged
in this Office an application and complete
specification for a patent under the Patent
Act1903(1903-7), for an invention for "Im-
provements relating to hinged-lid cartons".

The said Specification has been accepted
and is open to public inspection at this Office.


C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar (Ag.)
15th June, 1966
Registration Office.


NOTICE NO. 479 (third publication)

PUBLIC NOTICE

Patents Act, 1903-7, Sec. 10


NOTICE is hereby given that BRITISH-
AMERICAN TOBACCO COMPANY LIMITED,
a Company incorporated under the laws of
Great Britain, of Westminster House 7, Mill-
bank, London, S.W.1, England, hath lodged in
this Office an application and complete speci-
ficationfor a Patent under the Patent Act 1903
(1903-7), for an invention for "Improvements
relating to Cigar Holders".

The said Specification has been accepted
and is open to public inspection at this Office.

C. A. ROCHEFORD
Registrar (Ag.)
15th June, 1966
Registration Office.


NOTICE NO. 510 (second publication)


THE LAND ACQUISITION ACT, 1949


(Notice under Section 6)


NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that it ap-
pears to the Crown in right of its Government
of this island that the parcel of land, together
with the buildings and hereditaments thereon,
described in the Schedule hereto and situate
at Coleridge Street in the parish of Saint Mi-
chael and Island of Barbados is likely to be
needed for purposes which in the opinion of
the Crown in right of its Government of this
Island are public purposes: namely for the
extension of the Public Library, and for ac-
commodation for Government offices.


Schedule


ALL THAT certain piece or parcel of
land situate at Coleridge Street in the parish
of Saint Michael and Island of Barbados con-
taining by admeasurement 1,173 square feet
or thereabouts abutting and bounding on lands
of the Crown in right of its Government of this
Island on lands of A. E. Taylor Ltd. and on
Coleridge Street or however else the same
may abut and bound together with the build-
ings and hereditaments thereon.



Dated this 17th day of June one thousand
nine hundred and sixty six at Government
Headquarters, Bay Street, in the parish of
Saint Michael in the Island of Barbados.



F. M. BLACKMAN
Secretary to the Cabinet.


Government Printing Office.


OFFICIAL GAZETTE


June 30 1966













THE






House of Assembly Debates





(OFFICIAL REPORT)


SECOND SESSION OF 1961-66


HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 17th August, 190.5.

Pursuant to the adjournment, the House of Assembly
met at 2.30 p.m. o'clock today.

PRESENT

His Honour J. E. T. BRANCKER, Q.C., (Speaker);
Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD, (Minister of Development, Trade,
Labour and Social Security); Mr. L. E. SMITH, J.P.;
Mr. F. C. GODDARD; Mr. F. E. MILLER; Mr, J. W.
CORBIN; Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON, (Minister of Agricul-
ture and Fisheries); Mr. W. R. COWARD; Mr. R. St.C.
WEEKS, J.P.; Mr. W. R. LOWE; Mr. L. A. LYNCH,
J.P.; Mr. N. W. BOXILL and Mr. J. B. YEARWOOD.

Prayers were read.

Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY and Mr. S. E. SEALY entered
the House and took their seats.

MINUTES

Mr. SPEAKER: I regret to have to inform the House
that there are no Minutes available for confirmation.

Mr. K. N. R. HUSBANDS entered the House and took
his seat,

PAPERS LAID

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of
the Hon. Premier and Minister of Finance, I am com-
manded to lay the following papers:-

Quarterly Digest Statistics No. 33, March, 1965.

Report of the Standing Insurance Committee and State-
ment of Accounts of the General Insurance Fund for the
year 1962-63.

An Account of the transactions in Rum in the several
Districts of the Islandfor the Quarter ended 30th June 1965.

The Rules of the Supreme Court, (Amendment), 1965.

The Federal Negotiations, 1962-65 and Constitutional
Proposals for Barbados.

GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
Hon. Premier and Minister of Finance, I beg to give notice
of the following:-
A Resolution to approve the Civil Establishment
(General) (Amendment) (No.5) Order, 1965.


A Resolution to approve the Civil Establishment
(Teachers) (Amendment) Order, 1965.

A Resolution to approve the Compulsory acquisition
by the Crown of certain parcels of land situate at Black
Rock Cave Hill, St. Michael.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of
the Hon. Minister of Health, Housing, Local Government
and Community Development, I beg to give notice of the
following:-

A Resolution to place the sum of $2,561 at the disposal
of the Government to supplement the Estimates 1965-66,
Part I Current, as shown in Supplementary Estimate
1965-66, No. 13, which forms the schedule to the Resolution.

A Resolution to place the sum of $733 at the disposal
of the Government to supplement the Estimates 1965-66,
Part II Capital as shown in Supplementary Estimate
1965-66, No. 14, which forms the Schedule to the Resolu-
tion,

The Queen Elizabeth Hospital Bill, 1965.

REPLIES LAID

Hon. W. A. CRAVFORD: Mr. Speaker, I also beg to
give notice of the fact that the following Replies to Par-
liamentary Questions are ready:- The Reply to Par-
liamentary Question No. 25/1964 asked by the hon. senior
member for St. Michael.

The Reply to Parliamentary Question No. 38/1964 asked
by the hon. senior member for St. James.

The Reply to Parliamentary Question No. 40/1964 also
asked by the hon. senior member for St. James.

QUESTIONS

Mr. SPEAKER: There is a Question standing in the
name of the hon. junior member for St. Philip re the Gov-
ernment Industrial School at Dodds. I see that the hon.
member is not in his place.

There is also a Question standing in the name of the
hon. junior for St. John re the post of Student Nurse at
the Hospital.

Mr. YEARWOD: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the ap-
propriate Minister:

Is the Minister aware that persons who have applied
for the first time for the post of Student Nurse at the
Hospital and who have been unsuccessful in the examina-
tions for the said post have in some cases been requested
by the Matron not to apply again?


__ __
__











2. Will the Minister cause this most unsatisfactory state
of affairs to cease?

Hon. E. W. BARROW entered the House and took his
seat.

Mr. SPEAKER: I observe that the hon. Junior member
for St. Philip is now in his place. The hon. member may put
his question re the Government Industrial School at Dodds.

Mr. WEfEK;S: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the appro-
priate Minister.

Will Government state whether juvenile delinquents
detained at the Government Industrial School at Dodds, St.
Philip who have committed petty offences during such de-
tention are blacklisted after the period of detention by
reason of such offences?

2. If the answer is in the negative, will Government
state why such offences are taken into consideration in the
selection of (a) candidates for work with the London Trans-
port Executive, and (b) persons applying for entry into the
United Kingdom generally?

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give
notice of my intention to move the House into Committee
of Supply at its next meeting in order to deal with the
money Resolutions of which notice was given earlier today.

INDISPOSITION OF HON. C. E. TALMA

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I want to apol-
ogise to the House for the absence of the hon. senior mem-
ber for Christ Church, the Hon. Minister of Communica-
tions and Works, who is indisposed and unable to attend
today's sitting of the House.

BILL READ A FIRST TIME

Hon. W. A CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that the Queen Elizabeth Hospital Bill, 1965, be now read
a first tim.n.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

QUESTION TIME

Mr. SPEAKER: It is now Question Time. I have been
advised that the answer is ready to Question No. 25/1964,
standing in the name of the hon. senior member for St.
Michael. That is the first Question ready to be dealt with.

WATER SERVICE AT ST. STEPHENS -- CLEVE-
DALE HOUSING AREA

Mr. SEALEY: Mr. Speaker, to enquire of the Appro-
priate Minister:

Is Government aware that water mains have been
laid throughout the St. Stephen's Hill Qevedale
Housing Area in the parish of St. Michael for nearly
two years but no water service by way of public stand-
pipes or in private dwellings have yet been connected?

2. Is Government aware that as a result the residents
of the said district are put to great hardship and have
to travel long distances in order to obtain water?

3. Will Government take immediate steps to have the
said water service connected and the said hardship
alleviated?
2.55 p.m.

Mr. BOXILL: Mr. Speaker, the reply is as follows:-

"Yes, Sir. It is desired to point out however that as an
interim measure two standpipes have been installed.


2. Does not now ar-is.

3. Negotiations are in progress with the owner of the land
under which a water main must be laid to enable the Housing
Authority's Estate at Qeverdale to obtain a water supply."


Mr. SPEAKER: The next answers are to Questions Nos.
38 and 40, both of which are in the name of the Hon. and
Learned member for St. James, who, I observe, is not pre-
sently in his place.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, in
respect of the White Paper which has just been laid in the
House, I would like to raise a question. I am fully aware
Sir, that the Other Place is entitled to have this or any
matter laid before it either before, after or simultaneously
with this Chamber as part of the Legislature of this colony.
I am also aware that the Government in presenting any
White Paper which they are producing are entitled to have
the Press, and I am fully aware that they are entitled to have
this White Paper sold by the Government Printery, but I
do think myself, Sir.....

Mr. SPEAKER: Will the Hon. Leader of the Opposition
direct my attention to the Point which. he desires to bring
to my notice?

Mr. MOTTLEY: I am going to do so, but I am just
trying to draw to Your Honour's attention the fact that I
am aware that the Leader of the Government is entitled to
have a Press Conference on this matter; but I do feel that
as Leader of the Opposition, I must express that it is rather
scant courtesy with which to treat this House. As a matter
of fact, I consider that the Government's attitude in ignoring
the House, if I can use that term, by making us the last
persons to be given copies to be a very ruinous and igno-
minous situation.

Mr. SPEAKER: May I draw to the attention of the Hon.
Leader of the Opposition that it is competent for a matter
to be laid in either Chamber of Parliament before the other?
And may I remind the Hon. member that in 1935 atthein-
stance of the late Henry Walter Reece, K. C., the Real
Property Devolution Act was laid first in the Legislative
Council and passed also in that Chamber before it was laid
here.

Mr. MOTTLEY: I am quite aware of that, Sir, because
I said that in my remarks; but I feel that as far as this
White Paper is concerned, it has placed hon. members in a
rather difficult situation, and I think it is a violation of
democratic propriety, because although this right exists, it
would seem to me a departure from traditional policy. I
agree with what Your Honour has said, but as an elected
member of this House, I feel very strongly on this matter,
and I consider the attitude of the Government on this matter
as such that I am going to be very strong........

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member may not comment on
a point of order on the White Paper unless he directs atten-
tion to a point of order connected thereto.

Mr. MOTTLEY: I am not commenting on the White
Paper at all. I feel very strongly on the matter and I would
like to have my protest registered very strongly against
the Government in this matter. I repeat that from my ex-
perience I know that it is right to have a Press Conference
on the White Paper, or for the public to buy it and every-
thing else, and although Your Honour referred to Mr. H.
Walter Reece, I still say that it is a departure from de-
mocratic traditional policy to have done it. I do feel that
this House has been treated with scant courtesy. I do not
know how hon. members feel, but it is my duty as Leader
of the Opposition to bring this question of the Presentation
of the White Paper to your attention.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, if I may give a
personal explanation, I do not really understand why the
member for the City rose to his feet at all on this matter,
because it was certainly not a point of order, because












there is nothing before the House, and I would think that
probably it may have been better for him to rise on a point
of privilege if a privilege had been involved. But Your
Honour has been at pains to point out to the hon. member
that it is no breach of the ancient privileges of this House
for a Bill, Resolution, White Paper or anything else to be
laid in either Place before the other. The position is this
in as much as I think the hon. member may be entitled to
an explanation as the hon. member has been advised,
obviously because he must have done a certain amount
of research on this matter; I saw the Paper of the West
Indies Federation in January 1948 before any member of the
House of Commons in the United Kingdom, the House of
Lords in that country or any member of any of the Legisla-
tures in this Country for the simple reason that the Report of
the Standing Closer Association Committee under the
Chairmanship of Sir Hubert Rance was on sale at Her
Majesty's Stationery Office before it was actually laid on
even before the knowledge that it had been published had
reached the West Indies. It is common practice in the United
Kingdom for people who are students of Parliamentary Pro-
cedure and political matters to go into the Stationery Office
in London and buy any White Paper unless it is specifically
ordered to be laid in a particular Chamber of HerMajesty
the Queen, and then it becomes a Command Paper, and the
Secretary of State for the appropriate Department is com-
manded by Her Majesty to lay it before the House of Com-
mons on such-and-such a date.

The Government merely promised to publish a White
Paper; the Government did not say which Chamber of the
Legislature it was going to be laid before, or whether it
was going to be laid at all, although inferentially by inform-
ing the Legislature that such a White Paper would be pub-
lished, it would in the normal course of events be brought
to the attention of hon. members. Now some of the hori.
members on the other side went so far in their political
meetings to suggest there was no White Paper at all, but
some sections of the Press were saying that the White
Paper was late, although an explanation was given here.
None of them assisted in its preparation, not the members
of the Civil Service, and when the White Paper was ready,
had there been a meeting of the House on Tuesday of last
week when members were enjoying some kind of respite
from their labours, it would have been laid in this Chamber
first. The White Paper being ready last week, it was not
considered either by the Cabinet or by me, which is one
and the same thing, because we all think alike on these
matters, that there should be any further delay in its
presentation to the general public. If there had been a
meeting of the House at the time when the Paper was
ready, and the Government had then elected to hold it
back and lay it before the Senate as a deliberate act of
contempt, there would have been some justification for
the hon. member rising to his feet today.
3.05 p.m.

I think what he has done today is purely an academic
exercise, certainly of no major constitutional interest to
me or any member of Parliament. I think the hon. mem-
ber should be satisfied that in this Chamber, it could not
have been laid any time before now and in this particular
instance it would have been laid in the House if the House
was in session.

Mr. SPEAKER: May I add that it could pot constitute
any breach of the privileges of this Chamber if the docu-
ment was laid first in the other Chamber, because neither
our Standing Orders nor anything else which may bear any
relation to this question, states that it must be laid in this
Chamber first.

Mr. MOTTLEY: I would like to say this in explanation.
The hon. senior member for St. John spoke on a point of
explanation. I should have brought this in on a point of
privilege. I wanted this matter further clarified. I realized
that the Government was absolutely correct. I realized
that the Government had power to do it.


FINANCIAL STATEMENT AND
BUDGET ~RYA PROPOSALS

Mr. SPEAKER: The first Order of the day under Pri-
vate Member's Business stands in tha name of the hon.
junior member for Christ Church: To resume debate on the
passing of a Resolution relating to the Financial State-
ment and Budgetary Proposals made by the Hon. Premier
on the 1st July, 1965.

When this debate was last adjourned, the hon. junior
member for St. George was addressing the House. Ac-
tually a motion was moved by the hon. Leader of the House,
seconded by the hon. junior member for St. Michael that
Government business be now taken. If the hon. junior mem-
ber for St. George choses to continue his address, this
is now his opportunity.

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, again dissatisfaction was
registered by hon. members of this Chamber Tuesday
before last with regard to the deliberate act of denial of
the use of the recording equipment for broadcasting of
the speeches of Opposition members. One would have im-
agined today that one would have had some excuse to offer,
either that something went wrong and they could not get
the equipment here, despite the fact that we were told that
the speech which was recorded of the hon. Junior member
for St. Joseph would be relegated to the wastepaper basket.
Whenever you seek to deny a section of the House elected
on the same grounds as someone else the right to the same
opportunity, and whenever you deny that section the use of
equipment to broadcast their speeches, that Sir, is certain-
ly denying those members an important process of dem-
ocracy.

Sir, you might decide to do so by your numbers or
plurality of numbers.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point
of order. I want to know whether the hon. Junior member
for St. George proposes to speak or does not propose to
speak on the motion before the House, because, according
to the Rules of this House, he has the right of making one
speech and he has already spoken on the motion. If he is
not speaking on the Financial Statement and Budgetary
Proposals he should sit down. When the hon. member has
made up his mind, Mr. Speaker, I hope you would allow me
the opportunity to make a statement. I shall ask Your Hon-
our now to call on the hon. junior member for St. George
to decide whether he is speaking on the Budgetary Pro-
posals. He cannot now make a speech on Broadcasting
Policy.

Mr. SPEAKER: I intended drawing to the attention of
the hon. Junior member for St. George as soon as he had
completed the sentence which he was uttering that, when
he last spoke, Tuesday before last, he made the point about
broadcasting and I made it quite clear, (speaking without
intended offence to the hon. member) over and over again,
that the subject under discussion on which he is only en-
titled to speak is a motion by the hon. Junior member for
Christ Church that this House note the Financial Statement
and Budgetary Proposals for the Fiscal Year 1965-66 con-
tained ii, a Statement made in this Honourable House on
1st i.ly, 1965, by the Minister of Finance. If the hon. Jun-
ior ::mber for St. George has to be reminded of it again
too ,, I now exhort him to make his comments on the mo-
tion which is presently before the House.

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I am absolutely aware of
the Orders of this House and I take my direction in this
House from you and the Chair and only you and the Chair.
What I would like to know now as regards all that has been
said Tuesday before last, with regard to the attitude of the
House denying a section of the Opposition the use of the
recording equipment, why is it that it was not made avail-
able to members of the Opposition? If the answer is "no"
that it would not be made available to us, well then, I de-
cline to speak on the motion.












Mr. SPEAKER: May I point out to the hon. Junior mem-
ber for St. George that that is amatterwhich is not within
the control of the Chair in any shape or form. It is a matter
for the hon. Junior member for St. George to make his
speech on the Financial Statement and Budgetary Proposals,
and if any Government spokesman (who may elect to speak)
decides to answer the point on broadcasting made by the
hon. junior member for St. George, he would have the same
latitude as the hon. Junior member for St. George has been
allowed to deal with such. I cannot give the hon. member
any more latitude on that matter.

Mr. MILLER: I have not said one word on the Budget
Speech and I do not know if Your Honour would deny me
the right to speak on it. Your Honour will remember that
when I first rose, I said that I had risen on a point of
order because I wanted to be very careful I repeat, I would
not say one word on the Financial Statement and Budgetary
Proposals until members of the Opposition are permitted
the same facilities as was given to the Hon. Premier and
the hon. Junior member for Christ Church.

Mr. SPEAKER: I do not like to interrupt an hon. mem-
ber, but the hon. Junior member for St. George, when he
rose Tuesday before last, he rose, as I understood him,
to make his speech on the Budgetary Proposals which he
was as perfectly entitled to make as any other hon. member.
3.15 p.m.

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, with your kind permission,
Sir, last Tuesday you probably did not hear me when I rose
on a point of order and requested from you to be informed
whether we would be provided with the facility of the Broad-
casting equipment or not. I said that I would not make my
speech on the Budget until some form of democracy was
provided.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker,
I did not have the disadvantage and the suffering on the last
occasion when the hon. member was speaking, but the hon.
member ought to be reminded that he can only rise on a
point of order when there is a motion before the House and
some hon. member is speaking at the time. When the hon.
member rises to make what he calls his contribution to the
debate, he cannot at this stage, raise matters which are
extraneous to the debate and say that he is not exercising
his right of discussion. He cannot go all around and say that
he will return to the point of his speech because that would
be a violation of the established principles of parliamentary
procedure. The hon. member has to go on with his speech
now or sit down and forever thereafter hold his peace.

Mr. SPEAKER: That is only in so far as this matter is
concerned, of course. The matter is quite simple. May I
just refer to the printed record? This is what it says: On
the 3rd August, 1965, the hon. senior member for St. Andrew
spoke. The hon. junior member for St. George was speaking
when, on the motion of the Hon. Leader of the House, secon-
ded by the Hon. Minister of Communications and Works,
Government business was taken. There is no question of
speaking on a point of order. The junior member for St.
George was addressing the Chamber on a motion which was
under discussion, a motion in respect of the passing of a
Resolution relative to the Financial Statement and Budgetary
proposals made by the Hon. Premier on the 1st July, 1965.

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, if you will permit me at
this stage, you will remember that I am simply seeking
your opinion and advice as to whether we will be permitted
to use the recording equipment or not. Your Honour said
that you gave your permission for the use of this recording
equipment in this Parliament, and I said that I would be not
prepared to make my contribution to the Budget Speech un-
til permission was granted me for the use of the facilities
for recording it. Your Honour was reminded that it was a
precedent until last year when all hon. members of this
House were permitted to use the facilities for the recording
of their speeches. I was at pains to point out that I would
not make any speech on the Budget until Your Honour could
tell me whether we would be accorded that privilege of the
use of the recording equipment.


Mr. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member saying that, inas-
much as he does not see the Broadcasting equipment, which
may or may not appear in this House again, he does not
propose to continue with this debate?

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, all I am doing is seeking
to remind Your Honour that there being no recording equip-
ment in this House to broadcast my speech, I will not
attempt to make my speech and that does not deny me the
right of speaking. Whenever the broadcasting equipment
is available, I will be making my speech.

Mr. SPEAKER: Let us get this matter quite clear. The
hon. member has taken his seat because I am speaking, but
if he does not rise immediately again, he loses all right
to speak on this particular matter. There is no question of
speaking if and when some apparatus is here, which ap-
paratus may never re-appear here again. Let the hon.
member decide now whether he will continue his address
instantly or whether he is not prepared to speak on this
motion, because this is the hon. member's only opportunity
for speaking on this motion.

Mr. MILLER: I accept that: but I expected that the
least you would be able to say is that I would be able to
continue my speech. Your Honour has ruled, whether that
is right or not. I have been trained to respect the ruling of
the Chair, but it is not proper to say that I should continue
to speak because I have not yet started to speak. If it is
your desire to deny me the right to speak, then I accept
that.
Mr. SPEAKER: Does any other hon. member seek to
speak on this motion which has been moved by the hon.
junior member for Christ Church? If there is no other
hon. member who wishes to contribute .......

Hon. G.G. FERGUSSON: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Junior
member for Christ Church has asked some questions
which directly concern my Ministry. One question was in
relation to the uncertainty of the prices relating to the
Sugar Industry and another question was in connection with
the Fishing Industry in Barbados. I would like to draw to
the attention of the hon. member that the worry and anxiety
about the sugar Industry does not only concern him, because
the Government is very much concerned as well about the
prices of sugar. At the present time, the negotiated price of
sugar for 1965 is $233. 56 f.o.b. stowed bulk. This figure
is made up of the basic price of $223.60 per ton paid to all
the territories participating in the Commonwealth Sugar
Agreement plus the supplementary payment to all less
developed territories, that is, to Australia the payment of
21.96 per ton f.o.b. stowed bulk, of which $6.36 is in recog-
nition of the loss since 1962 of benefits which used to
accrue to Colonial sugar exporters by virtue of the operation
of the Colonial Certificated preference and $15.60 per ton
f.o.b. stowed bulk in recognition of difficulties caused to the
less developed territories by the seriously depressed price
of sugar far below the cost of production of efficient
producers.

Mr. Speaker, the cost of production in Barbados today
is more than twice the amount of the world market price
for sugar.
3.25 p.m.

The greater the amount produced in this country at
present, the less the over-all price will be when you
calculate the surplus over 139,000 tons allocated by the
negotiated price as compared with the 195,000 tons pro-
duced in this country. The entire country, therefore, is
concerned, and it is because of this concern that the
Government is considering the following measures, Mr.
Speaker: the establishment of a milk plant; the Importa-
tion of cattle from Canada and Peurto Rico with a view
to securing a quick increase in the cattle population; art-
ificial insemination; animal nutrition unit for carrying
out feeding research: the expansion of the Central Live-
stock Station to include the Pine Plantation; the removal
of the price control on pork and the proposed use of the
Barbados Marketing Corporation for purchasing pigs and
marketing carcasses by wholesale and retail; incentives












to establish grasslands by grants and by loans for plant-
ing and fencing; Land Use Survey Report, with map done
by the Regional Research Centre; research in food crop
production; the establishment of an Agricultural Develop-
ment Corporation to set an example in diversification
through the operation of Government estates; the opera-
tion of the Barbados Marketing Corporation to ensure that
all the marketing arrangements for the increased produc-
tion are adequate: compulsory food planting legislation;
and the removal of price control on ground provisions.

All these, Mr. Speaker, are incentives that the Govern-
ment is taking steps on, so that in case diversification is
to take place, we would know exactly what to move in on,
and have at our finger-tips which of these incentives would
be the next to supplement the sugar industry.

With regard to the fishing industry, it is a recognized
fact, Mr. Speaker, that all over the world there are two
types of fishing carried out. One is inshore fishing which
is done by practically every country, and offshore fishing.
This island has never had any experience or carried out
any development on offshore fishing, and In a short space
of time the United Nations will be carrying out a pro-
gramme with Barbados as Headquarters in offshore fishing.

Mr. Speaker, the amount of money required in this
type of fishing far exceeds what we would normally spend
per boat in small inshore fishing, and we would have to
take every step to consider the economics of offshore
fishing and not plunge headlong as was done with the con-
version of the fishing fleet which today is causing not
only the Government, but boat owners in this country a
headache. In 1945 the Government built and launched the
"Investigator", the Government's experimental fishing
boat. It is sad to say, Mr. Speaker, that I cannot find any
of the experiments carried out by this boat. It was operated
as commercially as any fishing boat in this country. In
1952 when this industry was completely changed over from
the sailing boats for the preservation of lives, this was not
done actually through the Government, because they op-
erated the first fishing launch from 1945 to 1951, and up
to that time there would have had sufficient experience to
know what was the value of a powered boat as against a
sailing boat; yet on the 3rd December, 1952 when on the
west coast of this island over thirty boats were lost, they
did not see the wisdom in converting the fleet into a pow-
ered fleet, but had a so-called Calvert designed which the
so-called designer refused to accept any responsibility
for. That was designed with a steel keel, but the architects
in Barbados knew more about ship construction than any-
body else and substituted concrete with iron scrapings in
the keel instead of having a solid steel keel, and thus the
boats were required to carry more ballast than the average
fishing boat which normally operated in this island. Three
years after that the percentage of sinkings in this country
with that particular type of boat was greater than it ever
was in the history of Barbados.

It was only in defiance of the Calvert design that I
decided that sail had seen its best days if we wanted to pre-
serve the lives of our fishermen, and I designed and built
the first powered launch in this island. The Government
had experimented from 1945 to 1951 with the experimental
boat, and they should have known whether it was suitable
for conversion or not. It was after this that loans were
made for the fishing industry, and these loans were calcu-
lated on such a basis that fishermen werenot ina position
to use them to their advantage, and all types of people who
never had any interest in the fishing industry came in and
used those loans to good advantage. It was a free-for-all
and whosoever will may come. I regret to say that the
fishermen in this country were not in any financial position
to produce a hull that would have put them in position to
qualify for a loan; but by the time they realized what was
happening, the entire industry was over-built, and any in-
dustry can only stand so much. Nobody made a study of the
economics of the industry and how many boats would be
required; so that half of the boats at present operating
would have been sufficient to satisfy inshore fishing. We
therefore have a fleet of over 400 boats doing the work that
half that amount can do.


Mr. Speaker, in 1955 I realizedwhatwas happening and
I wrote an article to the newspapers because I realized that
the industry was being over-built. Aboat that in 1951 would
have cost $600 with an earning power of $800 and an over-
head of $150 per boat was then changed over to a boat cost-
ing $5,000 with the same earning power of $800 and a
maintenance of $800. I wrote, Mr. Speaker, that if an es-
tate of 500 acres was operated with 100 donkeys costing $10
each and it could pay the operator, but the estate owner
decided to buy 100 trucks costing $10,000 each to do the
work of the 100 donkeys on the 500 acre estate, it would be
well to keep the donkeys in the business.
Nobody who had any knowledge of construction was
called in; not one ship carpenter who knew about construc-
tion or engineering was called in; nobody who had any know-
ledge of the fishing industry was called in. Some time after
this, an Advisory Committee was called in, but none of the
ideas or recommendations put forward by the Advisory
Committee that would have helped the industry was used
by the last Government.
3.35 p.m.

This is the unfortunate position, Mr. Speaker, that we
are in today. Boats are costing $5,000, and the loans cannot
be repaid because they cannot earn sufficient. That is be-
cause the entire fleet today is competing against itself. It
is as simple as this. It is just like a certain man in a cer-
tain locality begins operating a self service and is attracting
all the people, and then the second person to whom you lend
capital to open the same kind of business opens one and
finds out that he is not receiving any business at all. He
is competing against the first fellow and finds out that he
is not receiving sufficient money to pay the loan.

I agree with the hon. junior member for Christ Church
that off-shore fishing is our only salvation, but the capital
investment is very high; therefore, I am taking every op-
portunity to check the whole thing thoroughly.

As regards the experimental boat, "Investigator", it
is earning about $300 per year when the capital cost is in
the vicinity of $18,000 and it is of no benefit to the commu-
nity. I have looked into that matter very carefully and I
have recommended to the Cabinet to dispose of it. If the
boat was of any benefit, let us say, that you could teach men
anything by it, then the taxpayers would be satisfied to pay
for its operations; but it is operating just as anything com-
mercial is in business, and it is of no benefit to the commu-
nity of Barbados, We are considering the economics of
off-shore fishing and what it.entails before the Government
enters into any capital for changing over to these large
boats. It is going to cost $200,000 per ship, and besides that
I would have to make sure that there are markets for the
catches of fish equally as well

Sir, I would like to assure the hon. junior member for
Christ Church that the Japenese are not the only people
who have got their eyes on this matter of deep sea fishing
and that we are looking into the question also. I hope that
within the next six months with better experience and better
mathematical knowledge our people would be able to go for
this kind of fishing. The present fishermen would not be
able to operate these boats. We will require people of
higher mentality if we are to carry out this type of fishing
because there are such things as range finders and very
expensive equipment which will require people with some
knowledge of mathematics to operate them. I hope that we
will find some young fellows with a knowledge of mathema-
tics who would like to go in for this type of fishing and then
we will be in a position to carry it out.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I do not think that I
had taken half of the time to introduce the Financial State-
ment and Budgetary Proposals as that which was taken by
the hon. junior member for Christ Church to initiate this
debate on it. However, it was his privilege as shadow Min-
ister to the Minister of Finance. I was rather surprised that
the Honourable Minister who has just sat down took the hon.
junior member for St. George so seriously because he does
not seem to understand the hon. member.


~-L ------~----~-- -L








1001


I merely rose to say that there is no dispute among the
more intelligent members of the House as to the applica-
bility of the provisions which we have implemented into our
Budget Proposals. I have ascertained from the honourable
proposer of the motion which is being discussed that there
is no provision of which he is not sufficiently seized and
therefore that needs no reply from this side of the Table.
My reason, Mr. Speaker, of rising was to arrest the
remarks made by hon. members who are not fully
acquainted with parliamentary procedure. I say, it does
not sound good coming from any member of the former
Government that he is not given the opportunity to express
his views over the air. When we come into this OCamber,
it is not closed, and therefore any member of the public
sufficiently interested in hearing what his representatives
say, has access to the Chamber. I have never known Your
Honour to exercise your prerogative of exclusing any
member of the public, although I personally thought that
you would have done so at least on one occasion when we
were discussing the salaries of Officers of the House. I
personally felt that this was a domestic matter, and any
such matters we should normally discuss in camera rather
than pro bono public.

The second method which the general public has of
knowing the activities of their representatives is that the
Government Printery be ordered to circulate the debates
of this Chamber, either by giving them away or by the
members disposing of them among their constituents.
That is the second method.

The third method is one which unfortunately.we have no
control over, although it is easier, and that is by the dis-
semination of the debates by the General Press, Unfortu-
nately, the General Press considers itself more important
to this community to report fully some dissatisfaction
among postmen or anything like that than the debates which
take place in this Chamber.

I agree wholeheartedly that we can deny the Press
coming in here and it appears that it is a deliberate act on
the eve of our becoming independent that the "Daily
Mirror" should try to confuse the people. That has happened
In West Africa and East Africa before countries in that part
of Africa became independent, and they have recently
moved into the West Indies section.

Now, Sir, I return to my main topic on the question of
broadcasting. I have said that the dissemination of the
debates of this Chamber is, firstly, by accessibility of
members of the public to this Chamber; secondly, by the
printing of the debates and thirdly,
3.45 p.m.

We recognize the rather inexpert though not impartial
press of this Island. That is all we rely on. It does not
sound well, coming out of the mouth of a member of the
former Government Party, that they are not allowed to be
heard over the air. It has never happened in the regime of
the former Government, that the general public should be
given a general idea of matters of general import which
take place in this House. The institution of broadcasting
was the direct act of this Government. The terms and con-
ditions under which these broadcasts are made have not
been ordained by the Debates Committee, although I have
invited them to do so on more than one occasion. Every
time I make a Financial Statement, that Financial State-
ment has been broadcast, but every single part of that
debate was not broadcast. What we did on this occasion was
this; it was our experience in 1962 when hon. members
realized that the debates were being broadcast, they used
the facility which was vouchsafed to them by this Govern-
ment, as was the case in an important topic like the White
Paper C.M.D. 256 laid by the House of Commons in 1962.
But here the debates took eight months before the general
public were again afforded the opportunity of the facility of
the Government Information Service.

We have half an hour allocated to us; and when we
accorded people this facility some of them completely
discredited themselves with their elementary innocence


of the English Language. Therefore, I thought that I was
doing them a service not to allow their speeches to be
broadcast on this occasion. The Government said that in
view of the fact that we have important business to deal
with, we would not be kept off for eight months with
speeches made by members on the other side. The plan
which applies to this side applies equally to the members
of the other side. The Lord giveth and the Lord also taketh
away. The idea was that one speech should be broadcast on
the Government side and the Opposition should be given an
equal amount of time. If my speech lasted for two an a half
hours, then the Opposition would be entitled to have two and
one half hours of debate. My speech was the only one which
would be broadcast from this side. The position was that
my speech lasted for thirty-five or thirty-seven minutes,
as far as I can remember (Mr. MOTTLEY: It lasted for
longer than that.) and the hon. junior member for Christ
Church replied on behalf of the Official Opposition. I want
to make this clear. This Government recognizes the two-
Party system, the system of Parliamentary democracy to
which we are accustomed. The presence of nuisances or
amorphous organizations does not make us recognize any-
thing more than the two-Party system. It is a question of
Her Majesty's Opposition; it is not a question of Her Ma-
jesty's minority. It may be a question of Her Majesty's
headaches or nuisances, but that is nothing to do with
Parliament. If the hon. junior member for Christ Church,
who led off the debate on this Resolution had spoken for
E shorter time, the balance of the time would have been
distributed to whoever came first until the time had ex-
pired. That is the only way in which we could do justice
to public opinion so that the public could hear equally the
amount of opinion of the Opposition as they heard from the
Government. From that principle we have not departed; but
it would have been obviously a complete denial of the prin-
ciple of Parliamentary Government that the Leader of the
Government was speaking for thirty-five minutes on a
financial matter and the members of the minority Op-
position could occupy the stage for eight and one half
months as they did on the last occasion. We cannot afford
that either financially or from the point of view of fore-
going the Programme of Education which we have allo-
cated to us on the Radio.

Mr. Speaker, we are allotted half an hour each night
for four nights a week on the Radio, and the debate in 1962
took eight and a half months. I may say that everybody was
fed up with the ranting, and vilification and abuse which
emanated from that side of the House. Therefore, Sir,
do not let us hear any more of this nonsense of our denying
anybody else of the right to speak, The hon. junior member
for St. George can speak, filibuster, vilify or do whatever
he likes; but I say that when we are granting you a privilege
you have to be grateful that we have granted you that
privilege which the former Government never granted.

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. You
were at pains to point out that, unless I am discussing the
Budget, I may not continue my speech. Is the hon. member
making a political speech?

Mr. SPEAKER: My answer to the hon. member is that
at our meeting of a fortnight ago today, the hon. member
occupied a considerable period of time in dealing with the
question of broadcasting his speech. As I understood it now,
the hon. senior member for St. John is now replying to those
remarks which were made by the hon. junior member for
St. George. I allowed the hon. Junior member for St.
George a considerable time on that occasion to make his
point, and I am now allowing the hon. senior member for
St. John to reply to what the hon. Junior member for St.
George discussed a fortnight ago.

Mr. MILLER: The hon. member made it clear that he
was not allocating any time to the recording of the speeches
from over here. That is not the position in any English
Parliament.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: On a point of order.
Mr. MILLER: On a point of order.
3.55 p.m.








1002


Hon. E. W. BARROW: On a point of order, Mr.
Speaker, is the hon. member asking about the broadcast?
He has not got any right to do so, and you, Sir,....

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I am on a point of order,
and you must rule and be Speaker of this House, and ask
the member to sit down.

Mr. SPEAKER: I will ask both members to sit.

Mr. MILLER: I am not giving way.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid the hon. junior member
for St. Goerge must give way. (Mr.SPEAKER rose, and both
members took their seats).

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member says
that he has allocated the same time to the Opposition, and
if he spoke for thirty-five minutes, does it mean that the
rest of the Opposition must take that time?

Hon. E. W. BARROW: On a point of order, the hon.
member is not entitled to debate. I am speaking on the
Budget, and I will make a statement on my part of the
Budget Speech.

Mr. MILLER: The hon. member said he was not re-
plying .....

Hon. E. W. BARROW: I said that he was not entitled
to speak on the Budget Speech.

Mr. SPEAKER rose, and both members sat,

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order ......

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I was on a point
of order.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Junior member for St. George
rose and said "on a point of order". It did not appear to
me that he was then making a point of order, but in fairness
to the hon. member and other hon. members, will the hon.
member for St. George state concisely the point of order
that he was proposing to make, and I will decide whether
or not it is a point of order?

Mr. MILLER: Unless you are laying new rules and
new Standing Orders for the conduct and hehaviour of
Parliament ......

Mr. SPEAKER: I am not the occupant of a Chair in this
House who is preparing any new Rules or Standing Orders
for Parliamentary Procedure.

Mr. MILLER: Well then, no member of Parliament
should be told that time will be allocated in accordance with
the time used by the Government. Every member in here
has a right to speak as long as he likes, and it is time you
will have to protect Parliament; it is your responsibility.

Mr. SPEAKER: I did not understand the hon. and
Learned member for St. John to suggest that there would
be any attempt by him or the Government or me to
allocate the time for hon. members to speak in this Cham-
ber. All hon. members can speak so long as they like, pro-
vided they do not indulge in what the Standing Orders call
"tedious repetition."

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I want to listen to you, but
I am on a point of order, and if you are making a speech, I
will be happy to sit and listen to you.

Mr. SPEAKER: Time so spent will not be wasted.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I am on a point
of order, and I must specifically ...

Mr. SPEAKER: Has the hon. Junior member for St.
George completed making what he intended to be a point of
Order?


Mr. MILLER: Until then, the hon. member must sit.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. junior member for St. George
was apparently replying to something said by the hon. senior
member for St. John, and was not making a point of order.

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, two members are on their
feet.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I rose on a point
of order......

Mr. MILLER: Are you going to water down the Rules of
Parliament or re-write the Constitution?

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker ......

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Junior member for St. George
who stated "on a point of order" did not make what is in my
view a point of order, and is apparently replying or attempt-
ing to reply to something which the hon. senior member for
St. John has said; but the hon. junior member for St. George
has no right to reply, he having already spoken.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, that is my point
of order, and that is strictly the point of order.

Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I am on a point of order.
1 am on my feet and you must tell me what to do. You must
rule in this House and satisfy me.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, Iwillnot sit down
and I am not giving way.

Mr. MILLER: I am on a point of order, and he must
learn to behave sometimes.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: What kind of nonsense this is at
all?

Mr. MILLER: I have a right in here like anybody else;
do not fool yourselves. I have a right to speak as long as 1
like and even longer.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. junior memberfor St. George
rose and said "on a point of order" and made a remark
which I do not regard as a point of order. Then the hon.
senior member for St. John rose on a point of order. I
will now hear that, and determine whether that is a point
of order. Let the hon. senior member for St. John proceed.

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I have already in-
dicated what my point of order was; that is, that the hon.
member has already spoken on this motion. I am not exer-
cising the right of reply; I am making a contribution to the
debate initiated on a motion, as far as I can remember, by
the hon. junior member for Christ Church. The hon. mem-
ber has had his opportunity. During the course of his re-
marks, apart from his other effusions, Mr. Speaker, -
"effusions" is not unparliamentary; if it were effluviaa"
it would be he attempted to criticise the Government and
to suggest there was something unparliamentary, something
unconstitutional and undemocratic in the debates of all the
members on the other side or on this side not being broad-
cast, and I was in the course of my preliminary remarks
pointingg out that it might be well at this juncture, since he
Raised this debate. This is no attempt to prevent any
hon. member from speaking for three years, but merely
that the Government has to regard the taxpayers' money
which is being spent on making transmissions over the
radio station. The Government has to consider the interest
of the educational programme, and the Miniter of Education
and I have decided, in the absence of any definitive rules
laid down by the Debates Committee, to limit the Opposi-
tion's contribution to the sane length of time as the Govern-
ment which has a majority in this House. All I was asking
was how could that be undemocratic. To give the impression
to the general public that we are curtailing some hon. mem-
bers' speech, I think the hon. member is not even doing
justice to people of intelligence. I did not have to be on a
point of order, because when I realized that this point of








1003


order was making a second or third speech on a substan-
tive motion, I felt myself constrained to rise on a point of
order to draw this to Your Honour's attention. That is all
there is to it and there is no further argument.

I was pointing out, Mr. Speaker, in the course of my
speech that this is no debate on the Estimates at all, and it
is clear that some hon. members mistook this for a debate
on the Estimates. If they did not understand, the best thing
would be to keep quiet, so that the general public would not
really fathom the depth of their lack of knowledge on these
matters. I have not heard from the other side of the House
a single proposal, particularly from those Opposition mem-
bers to the right, as to what theywould do if they were in a
similar position. They are the sort of people, as I have said
in a different context, who, if mankind has been unfortunate
enough to have them in existence at the time of the emanci-
pation of the slaves, would have fought against it and told
the people that they were being misled, and would have said:
"You now have to buy your own house; you have to look for
your own cook; do not mind the licks you were getting;forget
all those blows; forget you do not have a chattel: but re-
member we are going to show you the true light, and the
true light is for you to buy your own food and look for a job,
and you would have to look fora shelter or rent a house."
That is the kind of mentality you have on the other side.
4.05 p.m.

We have financial proposals here. We have never In
my thirteen or fourteen years in this Chamber heard them
say one thing on the economic structure or the infrastruc-
ture on which we live. This is the kind of contribution which
we expect from representatives. I am very pleased that
the hon. Junior member for Christ Church who introduced
this Resolution does show some appreciation of the economic
facts of life in this country and I hope that all the people
in this Island, particularly their representatives, would
stop wasting time tearing the society apart without making
any constructive contributions. I say, Mr. Speaker, that
the sooner they go home and do a little bit of reading not
of the comic strips the sooner that they abandon abuse
on their political platforms, the better contribution they
would be able to make on debates of this kind.

I noted that some comments were made by the hon.
Junior member for Christ Church as regards the lowering
of income tax. I am in sympathy with his proposals for more
liberal concessions on the part of taxpayers. We all would
like to pay less taxes. On the other hand, I think, consider-
ing the services which we get in this island free, that we
are extremely lucky. It is not quite fair fair perhaps is
not the correct word to really equate the rates of taxa-
tion in the U.S.A., or the rates of taxation in the United
Kingdom or the rates of taxation, if it exists, in the Soviet
Union with the rates of taxation in this country because in
all of those countries there are otherfactors entering into
the infrastructure and the social structure causing these
disequalities in the taxation and the level of taxation when
compared with that in this country.

I give you an example. Here in Barbados, we have vir-
tually a free medical service. We have free primary school
education. I was shocked and horrified when I went to Kenya
to find in that country with eight million people, there were
only two grammar schools, and that there was not up to six
months ago a single primary school at which you did not
have to pay fees. Kenya is a very rich country, but you
have people who live in quite a different way from us. Peo-
ple there live without spending money: therefore, it is quite
difficult to compare the gross domestic income with the
gross domestic product and the national income per capital
with the national income per capital in Barbados. As I have
said, you have people there living outside of a money econ-
omy. There are about six and one half million people liv-
ing there who have not seen a bank note, and it is because
they exchange sufficiently enough in their villages on which
they can live.

Therefore, when you go into statistics, you have to be
very careful. We have certain contributors to the local
Press who are erupting in this kind of exercise at certain


times of the year. They erupt into this exercise by saying
that Barbados has a higher tax system than Trinidad, and
so on. They erupt into this useless kind of exercise because
what is not disclosed in these figures is the infrastructure
of the country.Such questions as what are your water rates,
what do your children have to pay for education, are not in-
cluded. We have altogether 130 odd primary schools, 10
Government Aided Secondary Schools and even University
education free.We also have free water service, free medi-
cal service and judging from the Transport Board returns,
a free bus service: therefore anyone without any sense of
proportion comparing the rates of income tax of this country
with other countries, will give an almost total irrelevant
picture when they do not know what is the purchasing power
and what is the residual income. As I have said, you do
not have to pay for medical services here. Who, unfortu-
nately, if they live in the United States of America, does
not have to pay $50 or $60 (U.S.) a day before they can
even guarantee that a doctor would look at them in hospital?
People in St. Lucia and St. Vincent think themselves lucky
when they get 6,000 miles out of a set of motor tyres before
changing them. People in Barbados get 38,000 and 40,000
miles out of motor tyres, and someone was telling me that
with this Barber-Green equipment surfacing the roads now,
he is looking forward to getting 155,000 miles wear out of
a trye. Therefore, how can you comparethe roads in St.
Lucia and St. Vincent with the roads in Barbados? In Anti-
gua they tell you that they get 3,000 miles out of new tyres
and 2,000 miles with a retracted tyre.

Sir, I would say that I do not know of a single business
undertaking or a single retail shopkeeper who had to close
down business because the rate of Company tax was 40%.
I have always informed one gentleman who is a high priest
of the Income Tax Societyhere-Ithink he actually formed
an association at one time that when they complain of
the rate of Company tax, they should not complain because
they only pay the rate on the profits they make. You pay
Company tax purely on your profits. That is different from
personal income tax where you start paying from the time
you begin to earn 200 per annum. Certainly, companies
have nothing to complain about when they have to pay Com-
pany tax.

Sir, I see no justification of interfering with the rates
of income tax in the immediate future. As a matter of fact;
I should say that I see no justification for reducing the rate
because if I come back and put it up next year you will not
be able to say that I said I was not going to interfere with
it. As far as personal income tax is concerned, we said
three months before I presented the Financial Statement
that we are having a comprehensive review of the tax struc-
ture of the island.

Mr. Speaker, you will be pleased to know that on my
instructions, with the Premier of British Guiana, we have
decided to share the services of a tax expert. When we were
discussing the matter, he asked whether we should get
somebody from the University of the West Indies to make a
start, and I said to him that I honestly do not think there
was anybody at the University who was qualified to do an
exercise of this kind. That does not mean that you do not
have people who have not made a good study in medicine,
but I still do not entertain the idea that an academician can
do Justice to the work which the Government would be ap-
pointing him or her to do. Therefore, the Premier of
British Guiana and I decided in pursuance of our desire,
and our statements in the Development Plan which was made
in June of this year, that a tax consultant working between
the two countries should be obtained and I hope to have Pro-
fessor Arthur Lewis here shortly again to give us some
more information as regards the Free Trade Area of the
three or more countries which will be involved.
4.15 p.m.

As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, the hon. junior member
for Christ Church who initiated this debate, did make some
comments on the tax structure and that, of course, is a
perrenial thing. We want to get something done about per-
sonal income tax. We have already made tremendous con-
cessions in this Chamber by passing legislation for what








1004


we described as off-shore trading companies or inter-
national business companies, and we know that the estab-
lishment of the international business companies legisla-
tion, or the passing of such legislation, will induce a large
number of companies of the kind which we seek to establish
here, to come to Barbados. As far as the existing com-
panies are concerned, it seems to me that as to the large
amount of money which we have left over, we will have to
invest it in Barbados, re-capitalise our enterprises and
so on. Unfortunately, this may be a pure offer to capitalist
organizations, but it does not work in that way at all. Be-
cause of our liberal policy in allowing foreign business
benefits to be repatriated in one case and allowing export
on the part of local companies, we still have people who
are not public-spirited enough or who do not have the
national interest at heart, people who are taking money and
investing it in Jamiaca, and the New York Stock Exchange,
in London and Toronto. The money which they make as
profit they do not plough back in the Island. Over 90 per
cent of those people who have set up the new industries
which have come into Barbados, have not given any serious
thought to the investment of their surplus profits or local
undertakings, but by the inducement of the Development
Board, we are bringing income from outside so as to es-
tablish factories. If we were to reduce the rate of Com-
panies tax, we would be encouraging a more unfavourable
balance of payment. The most of that money would be ex-
ported and, of course, in a country like Barbados although
in our direct investment we like to be liberal in matters of
this kind, yet we have to reserve to ourselves the right of
tightening up our controls and saying to companies: "You
must invest such and such a proportion of your profits of
your business in the Island." We have been adopting a
policy of setting up inducements which will persuade them
to do so. We show businessmen the benefits which are to
be derived and the securities which are to be gained by
keeping surplus profits in this territory; but you will still
have a lot of people in this society, people who are living
in this society who are reaping the benefits of the society
but who do not want to plough back into the society anything
like 50 per cent of that which the society has contributed
to their personal well being. This seeme to be a matter of
morality; it is a question as to whether people have con-
sciences or not; and in the final analysis the community
becomes alive to what is going on and the community does
protest by boycotting people who are carrying on this kind
of principle.

For their own sake, I hope we do not get to the stage
where the masses of the people have to boycott the people
of this country who really control the strings of commerce
and industry. I think, Mr. Speaker, that a word to the wise
is sufficient. I am not issuing any threats, but I think we
have exhausted our patience. If you need to make sure of
their neglect of industrial expansion, you only have to look
around and see the United States firms, the Trinidad and
Jamaica firms who are investing in Barbados, and the
people who are responsible for capital accumulations do
not have the propensity to invest although they have the
propensity to save. All the propensity which they have to
save is directed to external sources rather than to inter-
nal investment. That is my answer to the hon. junior
member for Christ Church who has initiated this debate
and who made observations as to the tax structure from
the point of view of savings. From the point of view of
getting an undertaking from the Government that we agree
that the rate of tax in Barbados is too high, this is some-
thing to which I do not subscribe, and I do not think that
any rational person would subscribe to it either.

Mr. SPEAKER: If there is any other hon. member who
wishes to contribute to this debate which has been initiated
by the hon. Junior member for Christ Church, he may do
so now; otherwise the hon. junior member for Christ Church
may exercise his right of final reply.

Mr. GODDARD: Mr. Speaker, the comments on the Gov-
ernment side only go to show that we are still very con-
scious that the sugar industry is still the mainstay of this
economy. Even since I initiated this debate, we have seen
a further fall in the World market price.for sugar. We


are more concerned than ever before as to our future
effort. The largest markets have been built up in these
sugar- producing countries, and even with new markets,
this state of affairs will continue to our detriment. We are
fortunate that we have negotiated with the United Kingdom
for a large amount of sugar for which we have a settled
agreement. We will, of course, need a further basis for
our sugar, and I hope that the United Kingdom Government
will recognize our plight to maintain our standard of living
and keep that negotiated price as high as possible.

As to the other point which has been raised by the Hon.
Premier about the companies tax, and it is relatively high,
when I initiated this debate, I said that by some means the
Government should see fit to reduce the companies tax by
ten per cent and that money would be re-invested in indus-
tires. It is not fair to say that existing companies or busi-
nesses here just take out the money and send it away. I
know that they are so unfortunate, nearly all of them, with
the banks, that the first charge is to pay off the banks.
There is a certain amount of expansion of local business.
You may not see a new business opened, but you will see
an expansion.
4.25 p.m.

If you have not seen a new business opened, at least
you have seen an expansion. Take the Rum Refinery and
what it is today as compared with twenty years ago. Take
the Ice Factories in this Island. They have expanded suf-
ficiently and met the requirements of the special interests;
they have put in new equipment, and it could only come
from earnings. As a matter of fact, one Ice Factory I know
has approached Government for a lease of land at the Deep
Water Harbour for further expansion which will redound to
the increased economy of this Island, because what is
needed more now that ever at that Harbour are cold storage
facilities nearby to meet the expanding trans-shipment
trade. Boats come here and more would come to drop
cargo for the smaller islands if we had adequate cold
storage; therefore ships drop the cargo in Trinidad and
trans-shipment remains in Trinidad. That is one of the
handicaps of the Harbour. The Ice Company has foreseen
that and they are prepared to use not only their own re-
sources, but to borrow from Banks to put up adequate cold
storage facilities to meet that need.
Now that is a matter for Government; but expansion
along these lines has really been met by local capital,-and
I would say that if an exercise could have been made into
the feasibility of a reduction of Companies tax by X percent,
you could make it a condition that that money should be in-
vested for the expansion of the industry, and therefore the
provision of more jobs. That was a point I made, aIn I am
glad the Hon. Premier is in his seat because hewi!l u: i-r-
stand what I meant.
I also mentioned that medical expenses allowance could
have been increased, and I do hope that a note of this will
be made for the next Budget. However, the general com-
ments of the House have been favourable to the proposals
I made. They were general proposals and were really meant
for Government to take note of, and realise that the com-
mercial community is playing its part. We are fortunate
to know at the dividends remain in Barbados and are sent
outside like in the neighboring islands of Trinidad and
Jameica. There are some industries which have come in,
bu ey iyve brought the know-how which Barbados did
n, 'e, and that is why we have willingly admitted them
fr..e .,f tax.
Mr. Speaker, with those few remarks I shall now ask
leave to withdraw this Resolution.
Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. junior member for Christ
Church is asking leave of this House to withdraw this Reso-
lution, and if there is no objection, leave will be granted
the hon. member.

There being no objection, leave is granted the hon.
member to withdraw this Resolution.

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Mr. SPEAKER: It now being exactly 4.30 p.m. o'clock,
the time for Private Members' Business has expired, and








1005


we proceed to Government Business, and the first Order of
the Day under Government Business stands in the name of
the Hon. Learned member for St. John: to move the passing
of a Resolution to approve the Regulations entitled "The
Pensions (Amendment) Regulations, 1965".

RESOLUTION TO APPROVE THE PENSIONS (AMEND-
MENT) REGULATIONS, 1965

Hon. E. W. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of
this Resolution known as the Pensions (Amendment) Regu-
lations, 1965, is to confer benefits and remove disabilities
from officers. In accordance with subsection (2A) of
section 3 of the Pensions Act, 1947, in order to give re-
troactive effect to the proposals, the amending Regulations
must be approved by a Resolution of both Houses of the
Legislature before being made by the Governor.

The Regulations seek to safeguard the pensionable
service of officers who served under the Government of
the now dissolved Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland;
clarify the position regarding the calculation of aggregate
pensionable emoluments for the purposes of determining
the amount of a transferred officer's "scheduled" retiring
award. The Ministry of Overseas Development is anxious
to establish a uniform practice in this matter among ad-
ministrations whose pensions legislation is based on the
Model Pen3ions Ordinance; and then the third purpose of
the Regulations will be to add the words "British Antartic
Territory" :t the Schedule of the Pensions Regulations,
1947.


I do not think hon. members will need any further ex-
planation than that. These are matters, and a question of
tidying up certain deficiencies which may exist in our Regu-
lations so that the individual public officer does not suffer
any detriment.


I therefore beg to move that this Resolution do now
pass.

Hon. A. DaC, EDWARDS: I beg to second that.


The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

ADJOURNMENT

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, in concluding
Government Business, I beg to move that this House do
now adjourn until next Tuesday, 24th August 1965 at
2.30 p.m.

Hon. A. DaC, EDWARDS: I beg to second that.

The question that this House do now adjourn until
Tuesday, 24th August, 1965, at 2.30 p.m., was put and
resolved in the affirmative without division, and Mr.
SPEAKER adjourned the House accordingly.

4.35 p.m.












THE






House of Assembly Debates





(OFFICIAL REPORT)


SECOND SESSION OF 1961-66


HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 24th August, 1965.

Pursuant to the adjournment, the House of Assembly
met at 2.30 p.m. o'clock today.
PRESENT
His Honour J. E. T. BRANCKER, Q.C., (Speaker);
Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD, (Minister of Development, Trade,
Labour and Social Security); Mr. L. E. SMITH, J.P.;
Mr. F. C. GODDARD; Mr. S. E. SEALEY; Hon. G. G.
FERGUSSON); (Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries);
Mr. R. St.C. WEEKS, J.P.; Mr. W. R. LOWE; His
Honour E. L. CARMICHAEL, J.P., (Deputy Speaker);
Mr. G. V. BATSON, (Chairman of Committees); Mr. J. B.
YEARWOOD and Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS, (Minister of
Health, Housing, Local Government and Community
Development).
Prayers were read,

MINUTES

Mr. SPEAKER: I have the honour to inform the House
that the Minutes of the meeting of this Chamber of 3rd
August this year have been circulated amongst hon. mem-
bers, and if there is no objection, they will be confirmed.

There being no objection, I declare the Minutes of that
meeting duly to be confirmed.

PAPERS LAID

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
Hon. Premier, I am commanded to lay the following:-

Statement showing Net Customs and Excise Receipts
for four months ended 31st July, 1965.

Also on behalf of the Hon. Minister of Education, I am
commanded to lay the following:-

Barbados Report for the years 1962 and 1963.

GOVERNMENT NOTICES

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
Hon. Premier, I beg to give notice of the following Resolu-
tion;

Resolution to place the sum of $10,650 at the disposal
of the Government to supplement the Estimates 1965-66,
Part I Current as shown in the Supplementary Estimate,
1965-66, No. 15 which forms the Schedule to the Resolution.

On behalf of the Hon. Minister of Education, I beg to
give notice of the following Resolution:-


Resolution to approve the use for the construction of
three classrooms and the provision of furniture for St. Mi-
chael's Girls' School of the sum of $24,000 provided under
Capital Estimates, 1965-66 Head 4, Education, Item 7-
St. Michael's Girls' School for the conversion of the hall of
the school into three classrooms and the provision of fur-
niture.

I should like to inform hon. members that there is
some urgency connected with this Latter Resolution, and
with their concurrence I hope to deal with it in all its stages
today. Additional copies have been sent down and will be
circulated in due course.

Finally, Sir, Oral Replies to Parliamentary Questions
Nos. 38/1964 and 40/1964 asked by the hon. senior mem-
ber for St. James are ready.

The Hon. Minister of Communications and Works re-
minds me that there are two replies ready 4Om last Tues-
day, and if the hon. member is in his place at Question
Time, he is prepared to give the answer.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give
notice of my intention to move the House inta Committee
of Supply at its next meeting in order to dal with the re-
maining money Resolution of which notice was given today.

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mrk Speaker, I think it would
facilitate matters to move the suspension of the Standing
Orders. This would not Inhibit hon. members from dealing
with items standing under their named in the time normally
allotted to Private Members' Business, but since I think the
debate on the Budget Speech has been concluded, there
might be some time lag between the time when Private
Members' Business would normally expire and the end of
the time allotted to Private Members' Business.

I therefore beg to move that Standing Orders Nos. 5,
14, 16 18, 40 and 45 be suspended for the remainder of
today's Sitting.

Hon. C. E, TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' NOTICES

Mr. SPEAKER: There is a Resolution standing in the
named of the hon. senior member for St. Thomas.

Mr. BATSON: Mr. Speaker, the Resolution reads as
follows:-












WHEREAS the smallholders of land in the rural areas
do experience much hardship in disposing of their produce
profitably in the City of Bridgetown;

AND WHEREAS the major portion of the money they
get is used for transporting the said crops to the Market-
ing Corporation.

BE IT RESOLVED that Government explore the pos-
sibility of establishing centres in the rural areas, thus
enabling the smallholders in getting a better return for
their crops.

QUESTION TIME

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Question Time be now taken.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.
QUESTION re PAYMENT OF WATER RATES
AT BRANCH POST OFFICES

Mr. SPEAKER. Oral Question No. 21 stands in the
name of the hon. senior member for St. Thomas.
Mr. BATSON: Mr. Speaker, the question reads as fol-
lows:-

To enquire of the Appropriate Minister:

Is Government aware that people living in the country
districts do experience much inconvenience, having to
travel to town to pay their water rates?

If the answer to the above is in the affirmative, will
the Minister set about establishing branch offices in the
country districts, probably at the Branch Post Offices,
in order that such people will be able to pay their Water
Rates at the said places?

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Speaker, the reply is as
follows:- "No, Sir.

It should however be mentioned that the feasibility of
providing facilities for the payment of water rates at cer-
tain District Post Offices is presently being examined."
2.55 p.m.

MAGISTRATE ASSIGNED TO CRIMINAL COURT
DISTRICT 'A'

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 38, stands in the name of
the honourable and learned senior member for St. James.

Mr. CARMICHAEL: To enquire of the Appropriate
Minister:-

Is the Minister aware that the Magistrate, who for the
past few months has been assigned to the Criminal Court
of District "A", has been now over the past week on holi-
day leave?

Is the Minister aware that since then this Court has
been without the services of a Magistrate, except for the
temporary sitting of another Magistrate, and that this situ-
ation is hampering the proper administration of justice in
the said Court?
Will the Minister make suitable arrangements for a
suitably qualified person the duties of Magistrate in that
Court without delay?

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: The replies are as follows:-

1. Yes, Sir.
2. Yes Sir, but the situation was rectified, partially
on 6th March (i.e. 6 days after the Magistrate went on leave)
by a reallocation ef duties, and fully on 12th April when a
temporary substitute magistrate was appointed.


3. This is a matter for the Governor on the recom-
mendation of the Judicial and Legal Service Commission
who have in fact appointed a suitable qualified person to
perform the duties of Magistrate with as little delay as
possible.
DIFFICULTY BY JUDICIAL AND LEGAL
SERVICE COMMISSION

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 40, also stands in the
name of the honourable and learned senior member for
St. James.

Mr. CARMICHAEL: To enquire of the Appropriate
Minister:-

Is the Minister aware that considerable difficulty is
being experienced by the Judicial and Legal Service Com-
mission in getting suitably qualified persons to fill acting
Magisterial posts at less than the maximum salary attached
to such posts?

2. If the answer to 1 is in the affirmative, will the
Minister state what steps Government proposes to take to
offset such difficulty?

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: The replies are as follows:-

1. No. Sir.

2. The Judicial and Legal Service Commissionwhich
is responsible for the appointment and discipline of judicial
and legal officers has made no representation to Govern-
ment that difficulty has been experienced in recruiting
suitably qualified persons as acting magistrates.

NEED OF POST BOXES

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 53 stands in the name of
the honourable senior member for St. Thomas.

Mr. BATSON: To enquire of the Appropriate Minister:

Is Government aware that the people living in Prout
Village and Clifton Hill in the parish of St. Thomas are
in dire need of Post Boxes in the said areas?

Will the Minister explore the possibility of having two
Post Boxes placed in the said areas to alleviate the plight
of the residents who are experiencing much inconvenience
to post their mall?

Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Speaker, the replies are as
follows:-

Yes, Sir.

Post Boxes have been ordered and will be placed in the
two areas as soon as appropriate sites can be obtained.

Mr. CARMICHAEL: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a Supple-
mentary Question? Does that apply also to districts in St.
James for which post boxes have been asked to be provided
a few months ago Greenwich and Sea View?

Hon. C. E. TALMA: The answer given applies to post
boxes generally as far as the entire Island is concerned.
The whole matter was investigated and post boxes would be
sited at appropriate places, including the points mentioned
by the hon. senior member for St. James.

Mr. CARMICHAEL: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the
Hon. Minister.

SWAMPY CONDITION OF FARMER'S TENANTRY

Mr. SPEAKER: Question No. 28 also stands in the
name of the honourable senior member for St. Thomas.

Mr. BATSON: To enquire of the Appropriate Minister:

Is the Minister aware that it is very inconvenient for
the people living in Farmers Tenantry in the parish of St.








1008


Thomas to get in and out of their homes because of the
swampy condition of the terrain?

2. If the answer is in the affirmative, will the Minister
take steps to respite the said houses at the earliest oppor-
tunity?

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, therepliesare
as follows:-

1. Yes, Sir.

2. Consideration is being given to having the road
approach to the tenantry improved instead of resting the
houses.

Mr. SPEAKER: There are no more questions of which
answers are ready.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I think you
should proceed with Private Members' Business; therefore,
I beg to move that Private Members' Business be now
taken.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolvedin the affirmative
without division.

RESOLUTION re "THE HOSPITAL (FEES)
REGULATIONS, 1965"

Mr. SPEAKER: The first Order under Private Mem-
bers' Business is to resume debate ona Resolution relating
to the surgical fees, accommodation and treatment charges
as set out in the Schedule to "TheHospital (Fees) Regula-
tions, 1965."

When debate was adjourned on this Resolution on the
6th last month, the Hon. Minister for Health was addressing
the Chamber.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, on the last
occasion when I spoke on this Resolution, I had the un-
fortunate task of explaining what my views were concern-
ing the situation at the Hospital I was severely criticised
by certain sections of the Press on the stand which I took
in this matter.

As I have said then, I will say now; my primary inter-
est is in the 250,000 people in this country.
3.05 p.m.

The hon. member for the City raised certain questions
and I answered those questions. I am pleased to announce
that, as a result of my making certain statements on the
floor of this House, the Hospital is 300% better off today
than it was a few months ago. (Mr. MOTTLEY: Hearl
Hearl) The hon. member for the City said in his address
that the fees charged for operations were exorbitant.
(Mr. MOTTLEY: No, sir.) That is what I understood the
hon. member to say.

Mr. MOTTLEY: On a point of order.

Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister referred, as I un-
derstood him, to the hon. member for the City. I am not
sure which hon. member he was referring to.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Well, Sir, if you want me to sit down
and let the Hon. Minister say to which hon. member he
was referring, I will do so.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: The Hon. Leader of the Op-
position.


Mr. MOTTLEY: On a point of order.


Mr. SPEAKER: I take it that this will be a point of
elucidation. I did not hear any point mentioned.

Mr. MOTTLEY: It may be, Sir, that it is a little warm
today and it may be that your Wig might have prevented you
in some way from hearing me. On a point of order. I did not
say that the fees were exorbitant. I was saying what could
be charged.

Mr. SPEAKER: That is properly a point of explanation.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, this whole
Resolution deals with the question of fees charged at the
Hospital being too high.

Mr. MOTTLEY: On a point of order. Do not let thehon.
member say that this whole Resolution deals with that
question. This Resolution deals with the slackness, the
rottenness, the inhumanity and all the other things sur-
rounding the people at the Hospital. Do not let the hon.
member misquote me. The hon. member is dealing with
the Regulations which is a different thing from dealing with
the Resolution. Do not let the hon. member say that I
merely dealt with the fees being too high. I dealt with the
treatment of young girls, the bad behaviour and the mis-
conduct of the responsible persons at the Hospital.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member may not now recap-
itulate the points which he has made.

Mr. MOTTLEY: I did not do that; but if I did it, you
will forgive me. I was merely erring in the footsteps of the
Government.

Mr. SPEAKER: Two wrongs have never made a right.
The hon. member has the right of reply.

Mr. MOTTLEY: So has any member of the Government.

Hon. A. Da C, EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, we are debating
a Resolution relating to the surgical fees, accommodation
and treatment charges as set out in the Schedule to "The
Hospital (Fees) Regulations, 1965". My point was that the
case which the hon. senior member for the City was mak-
ing was in relation to the Resolution speaking on which he
said that these fees were too high.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Again, the hon. member is dealing
with the Regulations. My Resolution refers to the surgical
fees, accommodation and treatment charges as set out in
the Schedule to "The Hospital Fees) Regulations, 1965."
Does that refer only to the fees which are charged?

Mr. SPEAKER: That is the understanding of the Hon.
Minister of a portion of the hon. member's speech. It may
be clarified when the hon. member replies.

Mr. MOTTLEY: I do not know if I spoke in such a way
that the hon. member could not understand what I was saying.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I am dealing with the point
which the hon. member made that the fees were too high.
When I began my reply to the hon. member's speech, I
pointed out that the fees which were charged by the Regu-
la~ cis were not the fees which were put up by the Special-
isL. at the Hospital. I pointed out that these fees have had
to be reduced by 15%. What is in the Regulations is 15%
less than what the Specialists said' they should have. That
was done in deference to the changes in these fees by the
Specialists. The Specialists pointed out that these fees are
even below the fees which are charged in some of the Hos-
pitals in the sister territories. It was also pointed out that
in some cases, some of the fees charged for intermediate
examinations and operations were lower than the fees
charged by the abolished Regulations or the Regulations
which were in existence before the introduction of these
new Regulations. I am not saying that the fees are not high,
neither am I saying that they are too low. What I am saying
is that these fees were not revised for several years and
the Specialists pointed out that there has been a consider-













able increase in the cost of living over the years; hence
they cannot continue to work for the fees which they were
receiving up to the time when these Regulations were in-
troduced. As a matter of fact, we spent two years over
these Regulations before they were introduced, and all
along we could not come to any agreement with the Special-
ists. The Specialists felt that their services were worth
what they were asking for and, consequently, they were not
willing to agree to any reduction of the fees.
3.15 p.m.

Eventually we had to deal with it arbitrarily and take
off 15%. Even now the Specialists are not satisfied with the
fees which we have allowed them, and further negotiations
are being carried on between the Specialists and the Min-
istry for an increase in the fees to what they had put up.
The fees which we have here are 15 per cent less than what
the Specialists had asked for, and they have objected
strongly to our cutting them.

Now I made the point the last time I dealt with this that
services at the Hospital are free. I pointedout that certain
people were denied a privilege which other people were
allowed, in that up to the time that I spoke on this matter,
people from a certain income bracket who could not afford
to pay $5 or $10 for examination were placed on a long
waiting list, if they were ever seen, and those who could
pay were given priority. The Press can write what they
like; I do not intend withdrawing that. I have known of the
case of a man who was on a waiting list for four years
suffering from hernia, and he only got the operation after
I put in my presence. On the other hand, you do not find
people who can pay on a list for four years. The Press can
write what they like; they cannot stop my big mouth.

The point I was making, Mr. Speaker, is that I was not
satisifed with the way certain people of the underprivileged
class were treated in this country. We have had cases
where people have gone to the institution to see a Special-
ist and were not seen for seven months, and then they came
to make representation to the Ministry. Am I expected
to keep my mouth closed about these things?

On the last occasion I spoke about the question of In-
surance Companies, and that they were getting away with
murder. I have subsequently had a delegation from the In-
surance Companies to discover that people who hold insur-
ance policies with these companies were only given half of
what they should have received when they go to the Public
Wards of the Hospital, and the Insurance Companies kept
the other half; and as a result the Hospital has been losing
over $150,000 a year for the services rendered to those
people who have these policies, and this money can go a
long way in financing the running of the Hospital. If the
money was paid into the Hospital, the Hospital would have
an increased revenue of $150,000 more per annum. The
question is where is this money going. It could only be going
to the Insurance Companies, because if the people who hold
these policies would not go into the Pay Wards, what they
received was half the amount of money which should nor-
mally have been paid for their Hospitalisation. From all
discussions with the Insurance Companies it has been
agreed that if these people do not want to go into the Pay
Wards, they can go into the Grade 'A' or Grade 'B' Wards
at the Hospital. We also have another provision which is
the Grade 'C' Ward which is an adjunct to the Public Wards,
but the people are screened and the fees are $3.00 a day,
and the operations fees are much less than they are in the
Private Wards. If these people go into these paying Wards,
although they do not pay as much as they pay in the Grade
"A" or "B" Wards, they will recelvethe full grant
from the Insurance Companies, and they will be able to
pay for their hospitalisation.

We hope to have at the Hospital by next month an Al-
moner, and I understand that the Public Service Commission
is working on it now. When the Almoner goes into the Hos-
pital, every person going to the Hospital will be questioned
as to whether he holds an insurance policy; and for every-
one who holds an insurance policy, the Government must
have its share in the funds from the Insurance Company


for the hospitalisation and treatment of the people holding
such policies. In that way if and when the Government
comes again for sums of money for the Hospital, hon. mem-
bers can rest assured that at least $15,000 of that money
would be paid back by the Insurance Companies.

The hon. senior member for Bridgetown spoke about
the shortage of Nurses and raised the question that many
young girls who attended Secondary Schools and left in the
Third, Fourth or Fifth Form could be materialfor nursing.
That is true, because they leave Barbados and go abroad
and do well. I said most of what had to say on the Nursing
School, but I should just like to add that the Nursing School
is geared to accommodate about 120 student nurses a year.
I said what was responsible for the small output of the
school; and despite what any section of the Press might
publish, I still maintain that this is the cause of the small
output at the Nursing School.

The other question was why is it that so many of these
girls applying for Nursing could not get into the Hospital.
As I said, the Hospital can only turn out 120 nurses a year.
We have five posts of Tutors on the Establishment of the
Hospital; there is only onepostfilledbya qualified Tutor,
there are one part-time and another full-time Tutor who
are not qualified Tutors, and we have advertised abroad
for Tutors, but have got nobody to apply because it was
felt that the salary scale was a bit too small. This has been
increased recently and we hope that we will be able to re-
cruit the other four qualified Tutors.
3.25 p.m.

I should like to point out to the hon. member that over
and above the 120 that would be trained annually by our
present system, there are no fewer than one thousand girls
who apply annually for admission to the Nursing School, and
priority is usually given to the girls who have School Cer-
tificates. If a girl has English and Mathematics at "0"
Level, great consideration is given to her application as
against the girl who has nothing. We asked for a minimum
of two subjects and this is to be appreciated. I am sure
that the hon. senior member for the City of Bridgetown is
aware that we have no fewer than 2,000 boys and girls
leaving school annually with some sort of School Cerficate
at "0" Level; and while we will like those who have no
Certificates to be taken on, those with Certificates must
have priority. This is one of the reasons why girls who
leave schools in the Third and Fourth forms are not given
the consideration which girls who have Certificates are
given.

The hon. senior member for the City of Bridgetown
spoke about Nursing Assistants at the Hospital and he
pointed out that these Nursing Aides, aswe term them, are
treated like domestics. I challenge this. They are not
treated like domestics and I can speak ex cathedra on this.
These Nursing Aides are responsible for assisting the
nurses in their keeping of records and in the more practi-
cal side of nursing. The people who look after the domestic
work in the wards are Ward Maids, and we have these
maids as against the domestics working in the kitchen;
therefore, there is no reason for Nursing Aides doing
domestic work in the wards. There are Ward Maids for
this. The hon. member may not know this, but Nursing
Aides are even given a shorter course in the type of work
which they are supposed to do, and this work is not do-
mestic work.

The hon. member spoke about the gulf between the
Nursing staff and the Medical staff. He spoke about dis-
crimination being practised by Doctors to Nurses, and that
Nurses more or less are looked down upon by other pro-
fessional persons at the Hospital. This is true and this is
what the Nurses have been fighting against. This is one of
the points of discontent which Nurses have and complain
against.

I am going to say what is true. Nurses are now fighting
for the same recognition which Doctors have because they
feel that they are professional people and that they are not
tradesmen and, therefore, they should be treated with the








1010


dignity and respect with which Nurses abroad are treated.
This is one of their sore points of dissatisfaction. Perhaps,
a few of them may be given the sort of treatment deserving
them by some Doctors who think that they should have it;
but Nurses on the whole are fighting for their recognition
and what they think Is theirs by right. I am with them on
this issue.

The hon. member also raised the question of Visiting
Surgeons and he referred to the case of Dr. St. John. Dr.
St. John is the unfortunate one. When we appointed the
third post of Assistant Visiting Surgeon, unfortunately for
Dr. St. John, he was left out. He was of great assistance
to the Hospital. We have been aware of the big job Dr. St.
John has been doing. We have known of cases where he
got out of his bed and actually saved people's lives while
other people were asleep. He is really the unfortunate one,
and we are now considering the question of making pro-
vision so that we would have Dr. St. John back at the Hospi-
tal, because we feel that he is an asset there.

The hon. senior member for the City of Bridgetown
also raised the question of the Radiologists and their treat-
ment of certain other Radiographers. This is true also. I
am not prepared to defend anybody when they cannot he de-
fended; and as long as I am responsible for this portfolio,
or any other portfolio, I am going to say what is right and
what is wrong. If you do not like it, you can do as you like.

I was not satisfied that certain Radiographers were
treated as they should be treated. I went into the matter
and I think that things are going better now. As regards
Radiographers being paid in advance, this is provided for
by Section 10 of the Hospital Regulations, 1965. If the hon.
member will look at the Hospital Regulations of 1965,
Section 10, he would notice it there. This Section is not only
in the present Regulations; itwas in the former Regulations,
and it states that Hospital fees are supposed to be paid in
advance: therefore if the Radiographer should ask for her
fees in advance, I have no grouse with her because in ac-
cordance with the Regulations the fees are to be paid in
advance.

What I would say on this issue is that people can use
their discretion because the Hospital Director which is the
present post for Medical Superintendent, had it within his
discretion to decide whether the fees should be paid in ad-
vance or whether the patient should be allowed to pay his
fees in instalments.
3.35 p.m.
The hon. member also raised the point dealing with the
private practitioners I am wondering if the hon. member
wants these questions answered.

Mr. SPEAKER: Let the Hon. Minister continue to ad-
dress the Chair. What is said will appear in Hansard.

Mr. MOTTLEY: On a point of order. I was making the
point to my colleague as to how interesting the Hon. Minis-
ter is in his reply.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I was saying that the hon.
member raised the point about private practititioners re-
ferring cases to certain Specialists, and not even being
treated with the courtesy of a reply. I spoke at length on
that question and I said that my investigation revealed that
what the hon. member had said was true. I have nothing
more to say on that. I also said that a directive was sent
by the Ministry to those Specialists reminding them of
what their duties were, and also reminding them of the
question of private practice as against consulting practice,
and that it was their duty to refer the cases referred to
them by the private practitioners back to those practitioners
who sent the cases. The hon. member will be pleased to
know that, as a result of that directive, there has been a
better feeling of human relationship amongst the Doctors
in the various stages of the profession, and I may say that
while the Press was criticising me, quite a few of the
private practitioners were congratulating me on this matter.

As to the question of the fees charged by the Hospital,
that question was answered in the Reply which I gave to a
Parliamentary Question asked by the hon. junior member


for St. Joseph last week. The hon. member also raised the
question of the fee charged for medicine. The members of
the Barbados Labour Party objected to anybody paying for
medicine. My feeling is that people should pay something
towards the cost of the medicine. I feel that too much medi-
cine is being wasted at the Hospital. People go to a doctor,
they go to the Dispensary and get the medicine which he
prescribes and they throw away that medicine and get more
from another doctor. Why should we be asked to pay money
for drugs to be thrown away outside the Hospital? My view
is that if the patient was made to contribute something to the
purchase of that medicine he would consider that 25 cents
which he is asked to contribute to a bottle of medicine or a
drug which is worth $10.00.. (Mr. MOTTLEY: I have never
heard that.) We have this medicine at the Hospital. As a
matter of fact, the drug-bill at the Hospital was so high
that we have had to ask the Doctors whether they could not
find another type of medicine which would cost less money.
These expensive drugs are as a result of the direction of
private practitioners whom we ask to look after the surplus
cases which go to the Hospital, and who order drugs which
they are accustomed to use, whether those drugs are expen-
sive or cheap. But we have to provide very expensive drugs.
My argument is in favour of the payment of 25 cents towards
the medicine, and the hon. members on the other side are
aware that there is no drug which patients get at the Hos-
pital which can be obtained for 25 cents. In the United King-
dom you have to make a contribution towards the cost of the
medicine, and if people make a small contribution here to-
wards the cost of the medicine, they will appreciate it more
than If they got the medicine free of cost. If you contribute
25 cents towards the cost of that medicine you will say:
"After all, I cannot throw away my 25 cents". To hear
members of the Barbados Labour Party criticising the stand
which we have taken on this matter, one would think that this
fee of 25 cents was not introduced by them. The only change
is that there has been an addition of one cent, because during
the regime of the Barbados Labour Party the charge was
24 cents and now it has been rounded off to 25 cents. I did
not give any instruction that that provision should be carried
out. These Regulations were in operation for over a month
now, but has anybody paid for medicine yet? Nevertheless,
the provision is there. The hon. junior member for St.
Joseph will go down Broad Street and park his car which
he knows is against the law, but he will still do that.

Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think that the Hon. Minister
should suggest that an hon. member of this House would
break the law.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDSc I am not suggesting that the
hon. member would break the law. I have answered the ques-
tion of fees being demanded in advance. In one section of
the Regulations it is set out that the fees should be paid in
advance. We have a provision where a surcharge is placed
on fees of over 90 days' standing. I have just ruled in a case
where fees were outstanding for over 90 days and the sur-
charge of 6% was put on them. This money was to be paid
at a bank which asked for a rebate of 6%. My reply to the
Bank was that if I borrowed money from you and I had the
money for one day I will pay interest for that day. If it is for
a year I will pay the interest for a year. You cannot expect
to charge me interest on your money and expect me to give
you a rebate on the interest chargeable on the Hospital fees.
3.45 p.m.

The Hospital fees should be paid in advance and we are
giving you a grace period of ninety days, over and above
which you pay six per cent as a surcharge. This bill was
outstanding for over ninety days, and they asked to be al-
lowed not to pay the surcharge. We made provision in the
Estimates of an amount to pay commission to bailiffs to
collect Hospital fees, though the Regulations state that the
fees are paid in advance. If we were carrying out the strict
letter of the law and insisting that the fees be paid in ad-
vance, and if the Specialists and other surgeons had de-
manded the fees, there would have been no reason for us to
come here and ask for $3,000 a year to pay commission for
collecting fees.

Now, the hon. junior member for St. Joseph questioned
the allocation of beds to Specialists in the Hospital. As a
matter of fact, the beds in the Pay Wards are allocated to








1011
I---


certain Specialists. They sit in a Committee known as the
Hospital Medical Staff Committee; they are the people run-
ning the Hospital medically, and they have agreed that in the
interest of all of them, the beds in the Pay Wards be allo-
cated to the Specialists; but though the beds are so allocated
it does not mean that bed No. 2 belongs to Mr. St. John or
bed No. 3 belongs to Mr. Leacock. It means that Mr. Lea-
cock may have six beds, Mr. St. John may have six, and
Doctor Graham may have four as the case may be. But there
is co-operation among them; and if a Doctor did not have
immediate use for one of his beds and a case of emergency
came in and was to be treated by another doctor, he would
be allowed to use it; so there is really no hardship today.
I am nothing to do with what happened years ago; I am
something to do with what obtains today.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, on a point of elucidation, I
said that there are beds at the Hospital, and no one is al-
lowed to use them at all because they belong to these Doc-
tors. I said that it is not fair to have empty beds there when
people are willing to pay for them, but they are denied be-
cause they were not sent by the doctors to whom the beds
belong. That is to say, if my personal Doctor ordered me
to the Hospital on an urgent case, and he is not one of the
Doctors who owns beds, I would have to be put somewhere
else, though I was willing to pay for the bed.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member has made his point.

Mr. SMITH: That should not be so because he is not
on the Hospital Medical Staff Committee.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member has elucidated the
subject matter.

Hon. A. Da C EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, I am prepared
to give way for the hon. member to answer one question
which I would like to ask him, because my reply is de-
pendent on it. Is the Doctor who sent the hon. member to
the Hospital a member of the Staff of the Hospital?

Mr. MOTTLEY: If the hon. member would like that
answered......

Mr. SPEAKER: We are not going to have questions and
answers.

Mr. MOTTLEY: I hold no brief forthehon. member...

Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition has
not said what he has risen on.

Mr. MOTTLEY: I have risen on a point of elucidation.
What the hon. Junior member for St. Joseph has said is
true, because it has happened with members of the Visit-
ing Staff. I can tell you that there was a big noise at one of
the Masonic Lodges, though I do not care anything about
Masons; but here was a man who was refused a bed be-
cause he was sent by a Visiting Surgeon. One of the
Specialists said he could not get the bed as though he
owned it. He does not even own the one at home, because
his wife can order him out of it.

Mr. SPEAKER: I trust hon. members will not take
advantage, when they rise on points of order, elucidation or
explanation, of their having risen to refer to points which
they never made before, and therefore which they cannot
now attempt to elucidate or explain, particularly members
who have the right to speak again.

Mr. MOTTLEY: I made those points before.

Mr. SPEAKER: Therefore they will be enshrined in
Hansard.

Hon. A. DaC, EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. mem-
ber for St. Joseph said if his home doctor sent him to the
Hospital. I do not know if he means the doctor for St.
Joseph or the Doctor that looks after his home.

Mr. SMITH: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I really
did not mean myself personally; I was only making a ref-


erence, but it appears as if the Minister misunderstands
or is losing his senses or hearing. I have never had to go
to the Hospital yet, thank God, and I hope not to.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member has explained his
point. I gather that the hon. member for St. Joseph men-
tioned that by way of elucidation.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDSC What I wanted to point out
is that as long as the Doctor is a member of the Per-
manent or Visiting staff of the Hospital, there is that
co-operation.
3.55 p.m.

I am saying what happens today. There is that co-
operation at the Hospital today. I am not saying that the
Hospital today is as it was three or four years ago. I am
saying what obtains at the Hospital today. There is co-
operation and understanding among the Surgeons and
Physicians, and in a case where beds are concerned for
emergency cases, certain beds are provided for the Doctor
looking after that emergency.

Mr. Speaker, I think I have answered most of the
questions raised. There were certain hon. members who
criticised the actual fees for the Wards. We have fees of
$15 per day, $7.50 per day and we also have a fee of $3.50
per day. Some hon. members said that these fees are too
high, but I wonder If hon. members are aware that it
costs $35 per day to run one of those wards. I also wonder
if hon. members know that the people do not have to pay at
all. We have free medical services for all at the Hospital
and we also have free Specialists' services for all. Today
we are providing free Specialists' services for all at the
Hospital. This is as it should be, and this is what it would
be as long as I am in the Ministry.

Formerly, as I pointed out before, it did not appear to
some of the Specialists as though certain people were en-
titled to Specialists' services; but, today, if you have so
many paying services I am demanding that you give me
more free Specialists' services. Therefore, If you want to
pay for social status, snobbery or what you want to term it,
you pay for it. On the other hand, if you want to have free
medical service at the Hospital, from the Governor back
down to 'Ding Ding' can have it. Therefore, it is not a ques-
tion of anybody being overcharged.

You have private clinics in this island and I am sure
that you cannot get better services at any of these clinics
than at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital. What do you pay for
it? Go at any of the hospitals in Trinidad and Jamaica and
see what the people pay. Barbados is one of the cheapest
places for medical services in the Caribbean area. There-
fore, it is not fair to say that the fees chargeable at the
Queen Elizabeth Hospital are too high. That is not so when
you consider what is charged today in the other sister
territories, and to crown it off, you do not have to pay be-
cause you have free medical services.

Mr. SPEAKER: It appears that no other hon. member
wishes to speak on this motion and I shall invite the
Hon. Leader of the Opposition, if he thinks fit, to exercise
his right to reply.

Mr. MOTTLEY: It does not seem as if there is any
other hon. member who wants to speak in this debate.

Mr. Speaker, you know that for years this has been a
hardy annual for me. First of all, I would say that ever
since I have been in this Hon. Chamber, I have been a
critic for getting things done for those persons among
whom but for the grace of God, I myself would have been
and would have had to rely on somebody to put my case. I
must also confess that I have never heard any Minister
to be as frank in his reply as the present Hon. Minister of
Health. He has made it clear that he would not condone
things which concern his portfolio which should be brought
to light.

I must thank the Hon. Minister at least for the interest
which he has shown in this matter, and the courtesy of re-








1012


plying to all the points which I have made because in these
days, hon. members who occupy positions of temporary au-
thority are apt to become so discourteous that they think
it feasible that they should not go into matters which they
should go into. The Hon. Minister for Health knows that I
never come in here with anything and make any criticisms
about it unless my criticism is founded on fact.

There is one thing which I wanted to get clear and the
Hon. Minister in reply said that it was true. I made it clear
that they were Specialists at the Hospital who were drawing
our money and using our Hospital and Nurses and were ac-
tually attending to more paying private patients and neg-
lecting patients who could not pay. The Hon. Minister stood
on his feet and said that that was true.

Sir, I would just like to make one point clear. At no
time during my discussion did I say that I objected to Spec-
ialists having private practice at the Hospital, that is, by
seeing private or paying patients at the Hospital. Some
rumour went around that I had objected to that and it caused
some uneasiness in the Ministry. I could not be so stupid
to object to that because no one can expect that the salaries
which we pay to such Specialists can be enough to keep even
Junior Specialists. Therefore, they would have to be allowed
to do private practice at the Hospital and, further, consulta-
tive practice. They are entitled to private practice. If other
people went there to see the Specialist, that is quite alright.
All we ask this Government to do is to see to it, whether it
be Surgeon Specialists, Physician Specialists or any other
Specialists, that they give more attention to your non-
paying patients than they give to your paying patients.
4.05 p.m.

That is all I am saying now. The Hon. Minister may
wonder where I am getting my information. Since this debate
has been going on, what the hon. member says is the case;
but that was not the case before this debate was raised in
this House. I challenge the Hn. Minister to say that that is
not so. All along, not only in the case of the hon. member's
Ministry but in the case of the last Government as well, I
was complaining that poor people have been placed on a
waiting list. In cases where private practitioners suspected
an incurable disease, people were waiting for months or
years and could never see the Specialist, because you had a
very long line. I can prove that this is so. I am very pleased
to see that the Hon. Minister has put that state of affairs
right. I would be a fool to object to any Specialist at the
Hospital not being allowed to see private paying patients. I
have never objected to that.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of
elucidation. I would like to explain to the hon. member what
the situation is. A Specialist is allowed private consulting
practice as against being allowed to compete with private
practitioners outside the Hospital. What I was saying is that
it was the practice all along for Specialists to take cases and
contracting both at the Hospital. My directive has been that
these Specialists are only to take cases at the Hospital -
the cases referred to them by private practitioners or by
the junior doctors at the Hospital. That is what is known
as private consultations and what we allowed them according
to the terms of their contract. We do not allow them to com-
pete with private practitioners as was being done; they
were creating a breach of the Regulations.

Mr. MOTTLEY: I am quite sure that that matter has
been settled to the satisfaction of everybody. I have notes
here which refer to cases and dates, and that only those
who could afford to pay were allowed to go in. As long as
people were on the free list, they were told to come back
day after day for weeks. Unless they were trying to remove
some member of the staff, that is the only way in which they
could possibly get around this. However, this matter has
been put right.

On the question of the Nurses, I feel quite happy in
listening to the hon. member saying that something is
wrong. I am happy to say that since this question has been
raised, a sum of money has been provided to increase the
number of Nurses and Tutors and for the purpose of actually
increasing salaries.


Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order. Mr.
Speaker, I said that provision was made for additional
Tutors, and subsequently provision was made for the in-
crease in the salaries of these persons. This provision was
made before this question was raised because ever since
last year we had the matter on the establishment and we
experienced difficulty in recruiting the necessary staff.
We thought that it was a question of the salary, but this
increase was proposed before this Resolution was intro-
duced.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I am not supposed to
know what happens inside the Government. I know that they
have made provision for higher salaries since this debate
was started. It is not surprising to me that they had appli-
cations from a thousand people and those persons who have
Certificates are given priority. Nobody will quarrel about
that. There is nothing beyond the field of Nursing; it is
their divine calling and it a very honourable job. There are
people who work for five days a week and they do not work
on Saturday or Sundays as against the Nurses who must
work all the year round. I know that there is a great diffi-
culty in this matter. People came to us and told us about
remarks made to us, and I am glad to hear that the matter
has been amicably settled now. I hope that, as a result of
the salaries proposed in the Civil Establishment Orders,
you will be able to attract Sister Tutors and we will be able
to get on a good footing with the Hospital.

As to the question of the fees, well, I will deal with the
question of the medicine first. When the Hon. Minister gets
to my age and experience he will realise what I am saying.
People even take money out of their pockets and go to pri-
vate practitioners: they get medicine and they come
to the conclusion that the medicine is no good. I do not
accept that the reason for asking for this fee of 25 cents is
that people have been throwing away the medicine. There
was a physician here, Dr. Ken Stuart, who had been diag-
nosing trouble known as high blood pressure. If you were
to go to the United States of America, youwill buy a certain
aspirin tablet and you pay a certain amount for that tablet:
but you cango to a department store and get the same thing
for the same amount of money. But it does not mean that
the potency will be the same. Before the hon. Minister
came in here, I had the opportunity of discussing this ques-
tion. The hon. member says that because they have to bring
in private practitioners from outside, they are the people
who are prescribing these expensive drugs. There are peo-
ple who study medicine in the United Kingdom, in Canada,
in the University of the West Indies and in the United States
of America. The British Pharamaceutical institutions and
the Canadian and Americaninstitutions are different in
many respects. One drug will go by one name in the United
States of America, it will go by another name in the United
Kingdom and by another name in Canada and so on.
4.15 p.m.

Now the Hon. Leader of the House and the Minister of
Communications and Works will remember that I took this
Chamber to task on one occasion when a small book was
given to all the young doctors at the Hospital, and they were
told that they must only prescribe medicine from this book
for the various ailments from which people were suffering.
You cannot pin a doctor down to that. A few days ago I had
the honour of having a visit from the Specialists who is
dealing with the early detection of cancer, and he told me
that the mistake that quite a lot of people make is the fact
that they do not realise that young physicians or young
graduates are always on the ball, so to speak, and that it is
the practice in big countries today not to leave them out,
but in trying to diagnose cases, you should always have them
alongside because medicine moves on so fast that there is
always the tendency for young practitioners to be more
alert, although the older fellows have more experience.

The Hon. Minister of Communications will remember
that I joined with that Party in ripping to pieces the Minis-
ter of Social Services who is now the junior member for St.
George when they came here and had it advertised that as
from the following week the fees would be charged at the
Hospital. I could not very well preach one thing then and
preach another now. I said I did not think it was necessary.








1013


I realise that in Barbados your Hospital is quite different
from that in Jamaica, in Trinidad or in the United Kingdom
in that what is known as the Casualty is really an Out-
patients Department. Casualties in other countries are
places where people go after an accident and so on, but
your Casualty has always been and still is an Outpatients
Department, and I do not suppose you will be able to stop it,
because it is something you have inherited. The Socialists
so often like to tell us that they inherited these legacies
from the Conservatives when it pleases them to say so,
but when it is something which would redound to their
credit, they never tell you this is something they in-
herited. At one time Barbados was noted for the best Hos-
pital in the West Indies. The hon. member would appreciate
the fact, therefore, when he says that we have free Medical
services that it is not free in the same sense as it is free
in Great Britain. But people are divided into sections, and
there are those who feel that they must go to the Hospital
for treatment.

On the question of the allocation of beds at the Hospital
for Surgeons, this is done all over the world. The Minister
has said that there is that co-operation among the doctors,
whether visiting or permanent, attached to the Hospital, and
that of the number of beds, three are allocated to one doc-
tor, four to another and so on. There are usually more sur-
gical beds than medical beds, and one doctor may have
more than another; but it has happened that a doctor who
had beds allocated to him bluntly refused on the telephone
to allow them to be used, and even hung up in the doctor's
ear.

Mr. Speaker, I am not complaining personally, because
I want to say that I have made applications not for myself
or family, but for persons who had to have an emergency
operation, and if the beds of the particular doctor were
occupied, you had to wait until one became empty. That is
not right. I am happy that the Hon. Minister has told us
that it is not so any longer, and that there is this co-
operation. Hon. members must not take themselves as ex-
amples, because I do not believe any doctor at the Hospital
would have the temerity to refuse to allow the use of a bed
for the family of any member of this House. We must think
of the unfortunate people who sent us here to represent
them.

On the question of payment of fees at the Hospital, I
have always been a firm believer that people who can pay
must pay. A doctor should not workfornothing. But I have
always argued that you should take from thosewho can pay
for my cook or somebody's maid so that they can get the
same service. This seems to have been inculcated in me
in the United States where I was fortunate to have been
hospitalised on four different occasions.

There is one question which the Minister has not an-
swered. You have at the Hospital on the permanent staff,
pensionable officers, Physicians and Surgeons, Registrars
and so on, but this seems to be a new departure. I do not
think that the hon. member was suggesting that it is snob-
bery when we complain that two people were in a bed. Would
the Minister call it snobbery if he found himself or any of
his family in a bed in a Hospital, where he was lying at the
top and somebody was at the bottom with the person's feet
in his face, when he would strain every possible thing in
him to get $3, $4, $5 or $6 to pay for a bed? Would thi
Minister call that snobbery?

Hon. A. DaC, EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of
explanation......

Mr. SPEAKER: I think thatwas a rhetorical question,
and no answer was expected.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDSc Mr. Speaker, this situation
does not obtain any longer at the Hospital. There are no
two people in a bed, because I have seen to it that it does
not happen again except in cases of emergency.

Mr. MOTTLEY: The hon. member must remember that
this question was raised nearly three months ago, and in


reply to me he said that it was happening against his in-
structions, but I quickly retorted that it was not against
his knowledge. I challenge the hon. member or any other
hon. member of this House to say that it could be con-
sidered snobbish for a person to strain to provide $3, $4
$5, or $6 to avoid being in a bed with another person whom
you have never seen in your life, and therefore you would
not know from what disease he is suffering.
4.25 p.m.

I simply call that a matter of health; and if it happened
to you or anybody concerning me I am not trying to be
personal but this is something which I cannot reply to
anybody and say that it is not true. I know in this country
that there is a lot of snobbery and intellectual snobbery -
but it does not interfere with a person like me. I know it:
and when the time comes, I deal with it.

I would like to take the Hon. Minister up on the ques-
tion which he raised of Doctors being allowed to charge
fees. I remember this when a Visiting Surgeon was at the
Hospital. That Visiting Surgeon, as far as my memory
serves me, had some German name. I was on the Hospital
Advisory Committee and someone came to me and asked
me to lend them some money. He told me that he had gone
to the Hospital and was charged the maximum fee for an
operation. It appeared that the Doctor had got a special
room for him and had charged him $10 per day for that
special room. I asked the question, if you went in there to
have an operation for appendicitis and after you went into
the ward it was found out that you need no operation, if it
was necessary that you should pay thefeeor if it was part
of your duty to charge for the operation and to see that the
operation was carried out? I have always said that a doctor
is only as good as his nurse. I have nothing against any-
body; I am only speaking for people who cannot speak for
themselves on this matter and because I have been seeing
life in the raw in this respect.

I see that doctors, as soon as they enter a room to see
you, are allowed to charge you for each day they visit you
in there. There have been cases at the Hospital in which
doctors have disagreed over the diagnosis of a patient and
one doctor said that the patient can go out, yet that patient
was kept in the room for another five days and not one
thing was done to the patient, and because of that patient
being kept there, the fees amounted for the doctor. I do not
think that is right.

Talking about fees, your Physician Specialists and Sur-
geon Specialists get what fees that accrue to them for per-
sons who are sent up by General Practitioners, and quite
rightly so. They are entitled to those fees; if you ask me
I would say quite frankly that they are entitled to more.
Take for instance, Mr. Speaker, if you were a patient at
the Hospital. I feel that you can pay. I know you can afford
to pay from your exalted and remunerative profession and
that is as it should be. I feel quite frankly that this new
departure from the practice at the Hospital -

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a
point of order. This is no departure. This was in practice
all along. Over and above an operation the Physician or
Surgeon Specialist charges for his consultation. On the other
hand, a patient may be in a surgical ward and the surgeon
may not necessarily have to perform an operation; so these
Regulations make provision for the fees chargeable and it
is to be noticed that over and above a certain number of
days that a patient is in Hospital, the fees become smaller
and smaller. There is also a maximum amount which any
patient is asked to pay. Let us suppose that a patient had
seen the Pathologist, the Physician' Specialist, the Radio-
logist and the Gynaecologist. The maximum fees charge-
able to that individual patient is $325 and that is divided
proportionately among the various Specialists who had to
deal with the case. The point which I wanted to make was
that the patient may be in a Paying Ward for an operation,
but may not need the Surgeon. The patient may not necess-
arily be in there for an operation for which fees are charged,
but they may be in there for consultation by the Surgeon.
That fee is for consultation.













Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I say that this is a new
departure and I challenge the Hon. Minister to say that it
is not so. If the Hon. Minister will look at the Third Sched-
ule, (a) Attendance and Consultations by Chief Specialist
Physician and any other Specialists not specified else-
where;- he would see that for the first day of attendance in
a Grade A Room, the fee chargeable is $17; in a Grade B
Room $8.50 and in a Grade C Ward $4.25.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. mem-
ber would permit me, I would just like to say that we have
gone over the appointed time allocated to Private Members'
Business and in view of the fact that we have not done any
Government Business, I am afraid that we would have to
curtail the latitude which we gave to him.

I do not know how Your Honour feels about your unin-
terrupted occupation of the Chair, that is to say, if you are
able to carry on a little longer or whether you would like
a short break at this junction.

Mr. SPEAKER: May I ask the Hon. Leader of the Op-
position whether he had a considerable way to go before he
completes his reply?

Hon. W. A. CRAWFOR: I am not at present concerned
with that. I say that we can no longer continue with Private
Members' Business, but I am asking Your Honour whether
you yourself would prefer a small break at this Juncture,
particularly in view of the fact that the Deputy Speaker is
not here.

Mr. SPEAKER: I appreciate the break now, but the Hon.
Leader of the Opposition may now move that further con-
sideration of the Resolution be now postponed.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have no desire of hold-
ing up Government Business and I therefore beg to move
that further consideration of this Resolution be postponed.

Mr. GODDARD: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.
SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: I am entirely at Your Hon-
our's service. If you want to carry on, well, you may.

Mr. SPEAKER: I think that this may be the appropriate
time for a short break.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: I therefore beg to move that
this Sitting be now suspended for twenty minutes.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division and Mr. SPEAKER suspended the sitting
accordingly.
4.35 p.m.
On re-assembling,
Mr. YEARWOD: Mr. Speaker, there is no quorum
present, and I ask that the bell be rung.

Mr. SPEAKER: I thank the hon. member for drawing
that to my attention. Let the bell be rung.
On the bell being rung, a quorum was obtained.

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Government Business be now taken.

Hon. C, E. TALMA: I beg to second that,


The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.


COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

Mr. SPEAKER: The first Order of the Day under
Government Business stands in the name of the Hon. Leader
of the House, the hon. senior member for St. Philip:-
To move the House into Commitee of Supply to consider the
grant of sums of money for the service of the Island.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that Your Honour do now leave the Chair and the House go
into Committee of Supply.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair, and the House went
into Committee of Supply, Mr. BATSON in the Chair.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE 1965-66 No. 13


MINISTRY OF HEALTH, HOUSING, LOCAL GOVERNMENT

AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT


Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman,thefirst Reso-
lution is a Resolution to place the sum of $2,561 at the dis-
posal of the Government to supplement the Estimates
1965-66, Part 1 Current as shown in the Supplementary
Estimate 1965-66, No. 13, which forms the Schedule to the
Resolution.

As hon. members will see, there are three Items under
this Head. The first Item is Item 41 Dispenser. In this
connection, the sum of $1,536 is required to supplement
the Item of the Head 37(4) District Hospital Services, to
settle the payment of arrears of salary at the revised rate
to the part-time dispenser at the Oistin District Hospital
for the period 1st April, 1961, to 31st March, 1965. This
was as a result of an anomaly in the Salaries Revision.
The voucher for this amount was submitted to the Treasury
in favour of the dispenser towards the end of March, but
it was not cashed before the 31st March. It is therefore
necessary to provide this amount.

In connection with this item, I should also like to state
that this money is to meet the commitment of this voucher
which was not paid in last year's Estimates, and therefore
it will have to be paid from the current Estimates.

The next Item is Item 186 C which.is a new Item Bar-
bados Table Tennis Association. The amount required is
$500. It is known that the Barbados Table Tennis Associa-
ion are the present West Indian Champions. They won the
championship on the last occasion and the competition for
the championship for 1965 is scheduled to be held in Trini-
dad between the 22nd of this month and the 4th September.
The Table Tennis Association of Barbados is participating
in the competition for the championship; in fact, we will
have to do so as we are the present title holders. We hold
the title in the championship for the Men's Singles and it is
considered that all efforts should be made to assist the
Association in fulfilling their obligations in participating
in the games. They have to defend their title. I think that
this Association is one of the sporting associations of which
we should be proud in Barbados because it is an asset to
the country. The members show their superior skill in
this particular form of sport, and I think that all encourage-
ment should be\ given to them. They are sending a team of
9 persons, and I may say that over the years they have been
financing their tours. However, owing to the fact that they
have to pay rent for the quarters where they now hold
their tournament, and owing to the fact also that funds were
spent in the organization of previous games, they find it
difficult to raise the amount of $622 which it will cost them
to participate in the games. They have made representations
to the Ministry and the Government has decided to give them








1015


the grant of this $500 in order that they may be able to
participate in the competition and again secure the champ-
ionship for Barbados.

With regard to Item 191 -- Furniture and Equipment -
this sum of $525 is a re-vote. By Resolution No. 20/1965
which was passed by the Legislature on the 6th March, the
sum of $1,800 was provided for the purchase of chairs for
the Enmore Health Centre to replace 150 unserviceable
ones. A voucher for 50 of these chairs at $10.50 each was
not cashed by 31st March and therefore it is necessary to
have a re-vote of this amount. I beg to move that this Reso-
lution do now pass.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Chairman, I will preface my remarks
by congratulating the Hon. Minister on the change of heart.
This Association has been repeatedly knocking at the doors
of the Government for aid, and this is the first occasion
on which the representations made to the Government seem
likely to bear fruit. I was so bound in my chair by surprise
that I could hardly rise to my feet. I am the President of
this Association and I am distinctly behind members in
asking for aid. I would not like, however, to Join the Hon.
Minister in trying to deceive this House that this team is
likely to receive this championship. The Hon. Minister
knows that we have such a man as Byer who is on his way
to Canada, and Jamaica is bringing down Roberts who is one
of the best players. It is not correct to say that we are
sanguine about the prospects of this particular team, but I
would like to congratulate the Minister on his obvious change
of heart that future organizations, whether they are likely
to receive the championship or not, will receive his bless-
ing and support.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order, Mr.
Chairman, I would like to inform the hon. member that as-
sistance is given to sporting or any other organizations
according to the case which is put up by them. If an or-
ganization makes representation to the Government and the
Government is satisfied that the sum which is asked for
can be easily raised by the efforts of the organization, then
that organization is asked to put forward a little extra effort
and raise the necessary funds. As I intimated, we are sa-
tisfied that this organization has been making its own ef-
fort to provide these funds, but it is a question of other
commitments which it had to offset. I may say, Sir, that it
is not every application which goes to the Government for
charity which can be favourably considered because we
have to think of the financial position of the country. How-
ever, at this time, we can afford this money.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Chairman, we deplore the stupid
sentiments about Weight-Lifting Teams not carrying
Coaches with them. I would like the Minister to understand
that I am happy that they have seen fit to have a change of
heart about denying the aspirations of young people in this
community, and the Minister is willing at this time to sup-
port this team. I would like to disabuse his mind of the
idea that this team will carry off the championship. How-
ever, Sir, we look forward to support being given to worthy
organizations.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, I did not say
that the team would bring back the championship. What I
said is that I hope it will bring back the championship.

Mr. WALCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I would not like to join
this debate on the narrow basis of the Barbados Table
Tennis Association because I have extremely strong views
about these matters. Sometimes my views conflict with
those of the hon. Junior member for the City. I do not
believe that these organizations should sit down on their
haunches and expect the Public Treasury to do what they
should do. I am very serious about this matter; if this
community can gamble with a lot of money every week,
whether it is in Bingo or not, these organizations must get
some assistance like that. I have very strong views on or-
ganizations asking for money from the Government. My
organization went to London on a Sugar Conference which is


more important than any of these sporting organizations.
5.20 p.m.

There was an important Conference dealing with sugar
which affects the whole community, but we did not get any
money from the Government and we did not cry about it,
but pulled our own pockets. What I am worried about is that
too few of these sporting organizations are taxing them-
selves and their members sufficiently for the sports they
want. Some people want to join clubs and pay six cents a
week and still have these organizations run properly. The
days for these things are over, and I feel it is time that
clubs and organizations get down to business.

Now so far as the grant to the Table Tennis Associa-
tion is concerned, $500 is no money in a community like
this, but I am dealing with the principle. I do not like the
idea of organizations trooping up. You should have a Sports
Council which would be concerned with big national events
like Olympic games which attract World-wide attention.
These are things that Governments all over the world sub-
scribe to; but in a small community like this, the tendency
is that as soon as you give the Table Tennis Association
money, the Netball Association will come, the Basketball
Association will come, and all the Associations will come
and say that you gave the Table Tennis Association. Would
like to see the day come when you have a proper function-
ing Sports Council which has money given to it annually by
the Government, and the people who are responsible for
running Sports would be able to allocate this money, and
there would not be this adhoc method of asking somebody
to raise money by keeping a dance, or playing some game
to see if they can raise money. As the hon. junior member
for Bridgetown has said, the fact that they are going to be
beaten cannot be the criterion of determining this, because
the dividing line between champions and non-champions can
be very narrow indeed.

Mr. Chairman, I would prefer to see the Government
adopting a more settled and concrete policy about sports
aid than this adhoc method of dealing with it, because the
team is in Trinidad already and we are now passing the
Resolution; so they had to make provision to get there,
hoping that aid would come through. The hon. Junior mem-
ber for Bridgetown is President of the Olympic Committee
and of other sporting organizations,,and I am a member of
some of these clubs in Barbados too, and I have been
preaching to these cricket clubs and the like that they niust
get down to facts, and if they want these organizations to
run and to survive, the members must be prepared to pay
more dues for what they want. I am satisfied from the dues
I see operating the Clubs in Barbados that they are not tax-
ing themselves enough for the sports they want to maintain.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Chairman, if I may add a word of
elucidation to what my friend the hon. senior member for
St. Peter has said, I for one have always advocated that a
sum of money should be voted annually, as is done in every
civilized community, which the Minister would have at his
disposal to turn over either to a Council of Sport or call it
what you will, which would be responsible for sending
sporting teams abroad. The paying of dues cannot finance
the sending of a team to, let us say, Japan or even to Mex-
ico City in 1968. These things get too big sometimes for
the organizations which handle them, and Government has
to support ventures of this kind. Whose money are you giv-
ing these young people? Their ownl It is part of the duty
of any Government to see that the young people who happen
to live in the particular territory are engaged in healthful
rivalry in sport with other young people from adjacent
territories. You are doing them no favour whenyou do that;
you are doing your duty. The trouble seems to be that the
decision often rests with anaemic individuals who have never
had what is popularly known as "boy days", and that is what
we suffer from. That is the type of people who have decision s
to make when young people would like to go abroad to try
their hand at defeating other young people in games of skill,
and I would never tire of advocating that there be done here
what is done in Jamaica and Trinidad, and that is that a
sum of money be allocated annually for sporting organiza-
tions to travel abroad, the decision to be made by a Council








1016


of sportor if you do not like that name, call it what you
will: but it is the only approach to the problem.

I think it is an open secret with the Olympic Associa-
tion that some of the officials go to Broad Street and sign
notes that they would be responsible for the money, and this
is a ridiculous state of affairs for a country like Barbados
which has so much potential in it and so many young people
who are anxious to show their skillaswas evidenced recent-
ly when they put on an Olympic show here for athletics and
cycling. We have the talent, but it has to be supported by
the Government in power, and not as any hand-out as if you
are doing anybody a favour; you are merely doing your
duty.

I would like to support the hon. senior member for
St. Peter in what he says. The only point that he was not
quite aware of is that there can be no question of dues pay-
ing. The Olympic Association is made up of twelve sporting
bodies and we are onlyasked topay $10 a year; so the max-
imim monies collected would not be more than $120. The
Minister no doubt knows that the team from Trinidad which
came here did not have to wait on the Government of Trini-
dad which came here to come here; and they were badly
beaten by Jamaica. It does not mean that if they have to
leave Trinidad again to compete in another Olympic contest
that the Government of Trinidad would not support them.
Their attitude in the matter is altogether different from the
nibbling and niggardly attitude we sometimes find here.

Mr. WALCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to get
into any argument because I do not donate any money. The
only thing I would like to say to the hon. Junior member for
Bridgetown is that for one moment I could not suggest or it
could not be deduced from what I said that to pay more dues
could send a team to the Olympic Games. What I do say is
that if they are going to be the recipients of these benefits,
charity begins at home, and it must begin where the source
is. I have had the experience that too many of these clubs
are "back" clubs they want to ride on somebody's back -
and they do not want to pay for even the very fundamentals.
That is where I say that we have to train young people in
Barbados into acknowledging that the cinema and some of
the other activities in which they indulge are not the only
things they have to pay for. I would say that sporting clubs
pay fees which are basically too low for what they have to
perform, because they do not have any reserves left, since
they cannot pay enough even to keep things going.
5.30 p.m.

Nobody in any part of the world can pay enough dues
to send anybody to the Olympic Games, unless the Olympic
Games take place in your backyard. That is the point which
I made. I started out by saying that the Government should
subscribe to these things, but at the same time we have to
impress upon the people who are responsible that they have
a fundamental part to play by making provision in their own
organization for the assistance and help which should come
from themselves.

Hon. A. Da.C. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, the hon.
junior member for the City of Bridgetown spoke of the
niggardly attitude of the members of the Government or
their advisers towards these sporting organizations. Let
us take the Barbados Table Tennis Association. The hon.
member pointed out that several representations were made
to the Government for making provisions for sending a team
abroad, and in one of these instances the sum of $480 was
passed.

Now, the Table Tennis Association has 36 different
clubs affiliated to it. When the representation was made
at the time, no point was made about their paying off old
debts caused by other tours. No point was made of the
amount of money they had to pay for the rental of quarters
or anything of the sort. They just came and asked the
Government for 100. The attitude of the Government was
this: What are you doing to help yourself? Show us some-
thing and we would help you.

Another thing was that there were 36 clubs affiliated
to the association and if these clubs contributed $12 each,


they would have raised the money which they wanted. The
money was spent in Bingo. Well, if they spent their money
in Bingo and if they did not have any, why did not they apply
to the people responsible for running Bingo to assist them?
I am sure that they would have had a certain influence in
this quarter because in many of these associations, youhave
clubs which have members closely associated with those
responsible for running Bingo, and they would give them the
necessary assistance.

Mr. Chairman, the Government has plans in the making
now for assisting certain organizations in their programme.
As I pointed out in my opening address, we have to weigh
the pros and cons. We have to help those who help them-
selves. We have to be sure that a case was made out for
assistance. Prior to this, no strong case was made out by
this Association, but a strong case was made out this time.

The hon. junior member for the City spoke of represen-
tation being made by the Olympic Association. I would like
to ask one question. How much moeny was spent on sport by
the Government in 19617 The most was $8,000, the majority
of which was spent on paying the Sports Officer. That sum
is against the sum of $63,000 spent on sport last year. Is
not that a big jump? With our limited economy, we have to
think of priority and great priority and we try to give
encouragement, assistance and help to those who help them-
selves. It is not only a questionofgiving; it is a question of
dealing with the economics of your country. It is a question
of going as far as you can go. It is not expected ofa cow to
go further than the point of its tether. If the Government
can afford so much per annum for sports, we provide It.

Mr. Chairman, I would like hon. members to know that
already we are considering plans for the Olympic Games to
be held in Mexico next year, and I wonder if a lot of these
Associations have been thinking of what their programme
would be like, and if they are trying to assist themselves.
We have had discussions about it even at Cabinet level. We
have to plan now for years ahead, and we foresee that the
Olympic Association is going to make representation to us
for assistance.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order.
I would like to point out to the Hon. Minister, as regards the
Olympic Games that this Association does not have to think
about it.

Hon. A. Da C. EDWARDSC That is only a matter of opin-
ion. The plans of the hon. member cannot be strong -enough
to stop this Government from thinking about these games.
It is only a matter of opinion.

As I was saying. Sir, we have plans afoot for providing
funds for these games. We have plans ahead for the entire
sporting and social conditions of our country. The hon.
member mentioned something about representations being
made to us for assistance two or three weeks before the
team left. How can anyone make representations to us in a
matter of two or three weeks before and expect that we
could meet it by that time? It takes two weeks alone before
it can be processed by the Ministry.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order.
'This request was made to Government long before the team


Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, that is not
true. The team is supposed to be in Trinidad now. How could
you have a Cabinet decision in two or three weeks? The
Resolution was introduced last Tuesday. The matter has to
be dealt with in the Ministry and then it has to be put up to
the Cabinet. At least between the Ministry and the Cabinet,
it must take four weeks before it comes to the Legislature.
Why is it that the hon. member has tried to mislead this
Hon. Chamber? Last Tuesday this Resolution was intro-
duced into this Chamber. The team was in Trinidad. The
hon. member is trying to deliberately mislead this Cham-
ber.

This matter was dealt with at Cabinet the Thursday
before it was introduced to this Chamber, and that means








1017


that it would have to be dealt with by the Ministry first
and also the Ministry of Finance which does not just take
a file and send it back to you tomorrow if you sent it today.
That Ministry has to go through it thoroughly and see if the
representation merits assistance. It has to be scrutinized
not only by the Ministry of Community Development, but by
the Ministry of Finance also; and after they have scrutinised
it, it is sent back to the Ministry and a Cabinet Paper is
finalized. All of this takes time, and the hon. member is
saying that this representation was made before the team
had left. This is nothing else but trying to mislead the Hon-
ourable Chamber.

The hon. member has spoken about request from
various organizations being turned down. Why does he not
explain why those requests were turned down?
5.40 p.m.

Those requests were turned down because the repre-
sentations were made late. How can you expect people to
process representations for assistance when the repre-
sentations were made two or three weeks ago? The hon.
member spoke of representations being made just two
weeks before the team was supposed to have left; what I
am saying is that it is all right for people to sit back and
talk about giving other people what is their need and that
sort of thing, but we do not adopt any laissez faire at-
titude in these matters. We study these things; and if we
refuse an organization any sort of assistance, it means
that that organization either does not make out a case for
assistance and we are not satisfied that the organization
cannot raise the necessary amount of funds; or it is our
view that that organization could raise the necessary funds
without asking the Government for assistance.

Mr. Chairman, we do not consider the Government to be
a milch cow; we feel that if these associations are not
backed by the Government they have themselves to blame.
I could not agree with the hon. senior member for St. Peter
more. Any reasonable thinking person would agree with
the stand which the Government takes in these issues. When
the Government is criticised for not having the interest in
sport which it should have, I say that we would have to think
twice before we render assistance in this direction. Last
year we spent the sum of $63,000 in connection with sport
as against $10,000 which we spent before.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Chairman, I would like to correct
the misrepresentations which have been made by the hon.
member who seems to be generating more heat than he is
giving light. There are 36 Associations and some of them
are yet to have a tennis table.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: On a point of order. Mr.
Chairman, what is wrong with the Barbados Table Tennis
Association having a dance and asking the Clubs to sell 12
tickets at $1.00 each?

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Chairman, the last dance held by a
sporting organization realized $27.38. The Hon. Minister
must be aware of the amount of money which is made at
dances held by sporting organizations in this community.
I am submitting that the suggestion that funds be raised
by holding dances is unacceptable to any one who knows how
sporting organizations in Barbados are run. If that sug-
gestion was made to the Jamaica Olympic Association
which had to raise a large sum of money to send their
team to the Olympic Games the sum of money needed
was something like $8,000. The Minister must be aware
that the Table Tennis team is now in Trinidad and we are
discussing the amount which should be given to them now.
The hon. member cannot deny these inescapable facts. The
team has gone abroad and we are now discussing whether
we should give them the money or not. Is this a late ap-
plication, an application made by the Barbados Olympic
Association four weeks before the team was due to leave?
Mr. Chairman, I leave that for you to decide. They also
have a letter from the Barbados Olympic Association ask-
ing for help in being host to the other regional bodies
when they recently held games at Kensington and we are
yet to have an answer to that letter.


Mr. Chairman, there is no other West Indian Island
which would be host to regional bodies, which had asked
the Government to assist them and they did not receive
any reply or assistance except the customary card which
says that the letter had been received. I am not disposed
to continue this strain in a debate, but I may point out to
the Hon. Minister that I am very happy to see his change
of heart and hope that there will be more harmonious
relations existing. Whether the Hon. Minister is pleased
or vexed, I will always say what I have to say.

Hon. A. Da C, EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. mem-
ber has spoken of the contribution which Jamaica wanted,
the sum of $8,000, for their team. I am speaking of the con-
tribution which the Barbados Table Tennis Association
asked for last year, that in 100. Is it asking the Associa-
tion too much to try to raise the sum of $480 by their own
efforts? The hon. member spoke about the dances which
are held by sporting organizations and I would ask him to
enquire of the Spartan Club what they make out of their
dances. Mr. Chairman, where any organization cannot
raise $480 by its own efforts, it means that it is not pro-
perly organized. Why is It, Mr. Chairman, that well-
organized clubs can raise funds and island-wide associa-
tions cannot do the same? The answer to that question is
because too few people are doing the work of these
organizations. If an organization is properly run, it would
be possible for them to raise funds; but when the hierarchy
of the organization is only looking out for one man to do
the spade work, how can they expect to raise funds?
5.50 p.m.

The trouble with most of these sporting organizations
in this country is that they lookto one man to do thework.
Now the hon. member spoke about representation made by
the Olympic Association for assistance in the last tourna-
ment whichwe had here. Would like to read the letter
which that organization sent to the Ministry, because it
was just a vague representation. They did not say what it
was going to cost; they did not ask the Government for a
specific sum; they just told the Government that they
wanted assistance with these games. We do not operate
that way. We run the people's business, not our own busi-
ness, and we do not run around with a cash box and say
"take out $10." A case has got to be made out, but no case
was made out for assistance. We would have been glad to
do something for the Association, but they did not give us a
break-down of what it was going to cost, and that they an-
ticipated they would get so much frbm gate receipts. But
from the gates that I have seen, I do not think that even now
the Association wants assistance with that tournament.

The point I am making, Mr. Chairman, is that most of
these requests come into the Ministry late. The fact that we
have got to be dealing with this Resolution today is a result
of tardiness in representation being made by the Associa-
tion to the Ministry. As I pointed out, my Ministry is a busy
Ministry; I have one Permanent Secretary, one Assistant
Secretary, and these two men have got to do and supervise
the work of ten or twelve Departments of Government, plus
the voluntary organizations that make daily, weekly,
monthly or annual representation to us for assistance. We
do not sit down and wait on the Olympic Association to
make representation, and then deal with that, and then deal
with the Table Tennis Association when they make repre-
sentation. If they do not make representation in time, it is
not our fault; but if they did not feel they could get through
without assistance from Government, they would have made
representation three, four or five months before if they
wanted to have assistance in time. The fact that the Table
Tennis Association went on was because they had the as-
surance after a policy decision was made on this matter.
They were told that the Government was favourably dis-
posed to giving them $500, and they went on with the feeling
that they would get it. Now we are being called niggardly.

Mr. LYNCH: On a point of order, I said "nibbling and
niggardly".

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, it is always nice to
listen to the Minister of Social Services, but I could not let












my colleague sing any solo in this matter. On this question
of aid, I think that in these days when there is so much
lawlessness among young people, the Government should
decide upon a policy, and this idea about coming late is just
drawing a red herring across the line. I agree with the
Minister that people must first help themselves and then
they can ask for help, but when you take a social snobbish
organization like Spartans and compare it with a group of
people from the byways and hedges such as the people who
form the Table Tennis Association, that is not right. The
people from Spartans in most cases belong to the Cvil
Service and they can go into a bar and spend $10 or $15;
but unless the Table Tennis Association get people like the
hon. senior member for St. Michael and myself who would
in support of the cause spend a "fiver" or something like
that, they would not make any money, because everybody
does not have a dollar bill to spend, but they go in and get a
dance. The hon. member speaks at his age on sport as I
would speak at my age, and therefore I feel that it is ab-
solutely necessary for Government to declare its policy
in encouraging and helping these clubs. Apart from table
tennis, there is road tennis, and it is good to watch these
boys playing road tennis. I have passed the age of playing
that type of tennis anyhow; and if the hon. member is ac-
cused of being niggardly, what I think the member means
Is "parsimonious", and he should not take umbrage at
that. because although it might sting, it is true, neverthe-
less.

I do not agree with the hon. member saying that the
Association should send in a request four or five months
before, because if the Government wants to do something,
there have been cases where a Resolution came in the week
before for assistance. My colleague has for years and
years been advocating the encouragement of clean athletic
sports, and I am glad to think that the Government and the
Government and the Minister of Social Services appreciate
this, because he has been a Headmaster and realizes that
school-boys and other chaps who get at the Park Gate or
at the Drill Hall cannot raise 100, unless you are one of
the real "cats" and having a dance. It is no sense the hon.
member taking umbrage at what my colleague has said,
because $500 is a small amount of money with which to help
this Organization. Do you know the number of people who
have had to subscribe to get a table for these boys? If you
do not help in encouraging clean sports, you are going to i
get raping and breaking of houses. It is a crearer invest-
ment to have them at Dodds or at Glendairy Prison. (Mr.
WALCOTT: What is clean sport?) Mr. Chairman, the hon.
member made an aside which was not meant for your ears;
and though we should not pay attention to asides, I would say
that he remembers when he used to lift weights and play
strong man all the time, and would say he would take on
Joe Louis or Whiskers Blake. At one time he used to tell
us that he was the cleanest living man in here. I do not know
what he meant, but I am sure that he still supports the idea
of helping clean sports, though I agree with him that people
should help themselves. (Mr. WALCOTT: What is dirty
sport?) I can tell you what is dirty sport. Dirty sport is
when you have to visit Enmore's quite often.
6.00 p.m.

The Government has pointed out that you must send in
your request two or three months before. I know that they
cannot raise 100 as they like. As a matter of fact, at one
time I recommended to them to get the Board to make ta-
bles. I know they cannot raise money as they like. This is
money well spent by the Government.

Mr. LYNCH: I would not like the impression to be
given that as a result of generosity, the Minister has been
pilloried. I would like on behalf of the Table Tennis Asso-
ciation to thank you very much for what is being done and I
would like to point out to you also that it would have been
impossible to make a forecast of what the revenue would be
from the West Indian Olympic Games. I think the Hon.Min-
ister would appreciate that point because we have never held
one here yet.

As to the question of raising money, I think that you
would appreciate that there is a lot of social snobbery. I


belong to many social organizations, and I know that some
can raise $200, some $2,000; but it alldepends on the peo-
ple who make up the organization.

I reiterate as to the attitude about putting forward the
suggestion that this Association raise $500, that it was
impossible at the time. I hope that the Hon. Minister would
take what criticism I gave in good spirit.
The question that the Resolution for the sum of
$2,561 do now pass was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1965-66 No. 14
TENNIS COURTS

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, although the
attitude of the Government perhaps may leave much to be
desired where sport is concerned, here is another Reso-
lution for the promotion of sport coming from the Govern-
ment and I think the Hon. Leader of the Opposition would
say that the Government is doing its part as regards the
work on the hard courts at University Row for tennis.

The sum of $23,500 was provided in last year's Esti-
mates to spend on the provision of these hard courts. By
the end of March this year the amount of $21,017.44 was
spent on the hard courts, but the painting and furnishing of
changing rooms at the tennis courts was not completed. The
sum of $620 is required from the unexpended provision for
the painting and furnishing of the changing roms, and the
amount of $112.51 is needed to meet claims which were not
set out by the end of March this year.

This is another classic example to show hon. members
the Government's attitude on this particular policy, and if
hon. members chose to criticise Government on this par-
ticular policy....

Mr. MOTTLEY: Sir, I rise on a point of order. The
Hon. Minister said that the hon. senior member for the City
criticised the Government's policy.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order. The Hon.
Minister did not refer to the hon. senior member for the
Cty.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: I said that there has never
been any Government's policy before the assumption of
office of this Government, and I said that members of the
Opposition have been criticising the Government on their
attitude towards sport.

However, this is another sum of $733 which is asked
for to be spent on sport. The hard courts a, University
Row would he handed over to the public later on this month
or early next month, and at the official ceremony I would
like to invite members of the Opposition who criticised the
Government to be present.

I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. G. G. FERGUSSON: I beg to second that.

Mr. WALCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I am not criticising the
F, Minister. Since the Government has been explaining
it, views on sport, I wonder if the Hon. Minister would be
able to tell me when they would be able to open a similar
ground in St. Peter. Since 1947, the money for that purpose
was set aside from the Labou Welfare Fund. I am a little
worried to think that you have made all of these explana-
tions, and you have not said anything about that money. The
money was there ever since; and if you count up the in-
terest, I am sure the money would be doubled by now. I do
not think it is fair to the people of this parish that I have
to raise this question today, when the money was there 18
years ago.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, the Hon. Minister is ex-
plaining fast and free, and if thisis the particular peculiar
policy of the Government I would like him to explain what
they are doing for sport in St. Joseph also.








1019


Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, I have the an-
swer to both questions raised by both hon. members. As
regards St. Peter, we are negotiating for a seven-acre
plot of land at Golden Shores, and the position is that the
file has been sent to me only this week. There is a question
raised by the Solicitors of these people concerning the Gol-
den Shores as regards the plot of land being required to
carry out a school project along with the playing field; but
we pointed out to them that we in the Ministry of Community
Development could not wait until the Ministry of Education
decides as to whether a school should be put there or not,
to have the land for a playing field at Heywoods.

In reply to the hon. Junior member for St. Joseph, we
have just completed plans for the erection of a new school
at St. Elizabeth's Village and in these plans you have pro-
vision for a school cum playing field.

Mr. WALCOTT: I would like to thank the Hon. Minister
very much, and I wish him all success in these negotiations
because I am sure he can appreciate my plight. I am one
of the representatives for that parish and I have been asked
continually, "what about a playing field for the parish?" I
am pleased to hear what the Hon. Minister has just said and
I hope at some future date, not far from now, that we would
be able to have a sort of corner stone laying ceremony.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, I cannot let the Hon. Min-
ister get away with his reply to me. When one is going to
build a new school, I know that one always makes provision
for a playing field to be attached to it. In short, you buy as
much land as would be able to attach a playing field to the
school. That playing field is for the children; but I am
talking about a Community Centre and playing field to
serve the entire parish and the public.
6.10 p.m.

I am talking about community ones, the ones for the
use of the entire parish and the public. That is what I would
like to hear from the Hon. Minister. He has come here
with his "nay-nay" reply although I am thanking him for it.
This is a school at St. Elizabeth's Village; but no one
from Melvin's Hill or any where else will be able to
have a game. This is not for the benefit of the entire public.
I would like to know when he will extend the facilities up
there.

Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, sometimes it
amazes me when I listen to the hon. junior member for St.
Joseph. The first Premier of this Country, who was a
representative of the parish of St. Joseph for the past 25
years, has not provided a single playing field; as a matter
of fact, nothing was provided for the parish of St. Joseph.
For a school to accommodate 300 children, all the land we
would need for a playing-field would be 2 acres. I am dealing
with the school premises plus a community playing-field.
The position is that you have a school compound and ad-
jacent tn that, voni have a commnn'ty playing-field. We
have acquired 6 acres of land, and the hon. member knows
that if the necessary work has not begun up there this week
it will be started next week. (Mr. MOTTLEY: How much is
the cost of the land per acre?) I am not in a position to an-
swer that question. The position is that the parish of St.
Joseph is going to get its first proper playing-field at a
rime when the Government does not have a representative
in St. Joseph. I think that the hon. member should sing
the praises of this Government to the skies rather than
criticise the policy of this Government. The hon. member
does not understand that you cannot find many sites which
are suitable for playing-fields in the parish of St. Joseph.
At Joes River, we have purchased a suitable site so that
when the hon. member goes back to the people of St. Joseph
he can tell them what the Democratic Labour Party have
done for them. He can say: "They have given you a proper
playing-field." (L daughter .

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, when the hon. member
says that they have bought six acres of land for a playing-
field, he means that the entire area is six acres. If they
could have got a little "nay-nay" two acres, they would
have bought that amount. When the hon. member refers


to the last Premier and the first Premier, I am wondering
whether he really means what he is saying. If the last
Premier had done everything that was to have been done,
the hon. member would not now be there trying to mislead
the people.

Mr. SEALEY: Mr. Chairman, I am not a sportsman,
but at the same time I like to watch and enjoy sport. I did
not want to say anything on this Resolution because the Hon.
Minister has said what is the policy of the Government as
regards sport. I would like to commend the Hon. Minister
on the grant of $500 which the Government has offered to the
Barbados Table Tennis Association. It is true that we have
a lot of young people who do not belong to the big clubs and
who cannot raise this money.

Mr. CARMICHAEL: I would like to inform the hon.
member that this Resolution deals with the Tennic Court
at University Row.

Mr. SEALEY: Why then didyou not stop other hon.
members? I want to say that I was at the Airport and saw
two people who had returned from representing Barbados
and they were not in a positiontopay a taxi to take them to
Bridgetown. I had to take them to Bridgetown and then they
did not have any bus fare.

Mr. WALCOTT: On a point of order. The Hon. Leader
of the Opposition should have instructed the hon. member
who is now speaking on a vote which has already been
passed. If the hon. member wants to refer to what has al-
ready been passed, then he will have to get special per-
mission to do so. The hon. member must know that there is
a distinction between speaking on a vote which has already
been passed and directing the Minister's attention to a vote
which has to be passed somethingwhich the Hon. Minis-
ter could take into consideration. If the Hon. Minister is not
going to point that out to you, Mr. Chairman, and if the Hon.
Leader of the Opposition is not going to protect you and
show where the hon. member is wrong, then he will never
learn.

Mr. SEALEY: Mr. Chairman, is this money in connec-
tion with sport?

Mr. MOTTLEY: The hon. senior member for St. Peter
is wrong twice.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Will both hon. members take their
seats? I am listening to matters pertaining to this Resolu-
tion.

Mr. MOTTLEY: If the hon. senior member for St. Peter
knows what he said then he should tell you what to do.

Mr. WALCOTT: Mr. Chairman, that would be not only
impertinence, but rudeness.

Mr. LYNCH: Mr. Chairman, I rise with a certain
amount of righteous indignation to think that the hon. mem-
ber has given you any assistance in parliamentary proce-
dure.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I should like to draw to the attention
of the hon. senior member for St. Michael that he is out
of order.

Mr. SEALEY: Is this Resolution dealing with sport?

Mr. MOTTLEY: On a point of order.

Mr. SEALEY: Just a minute.

Mr. WALCOTT: Mr. Chairman, sport is a comprehen-
sive term. You can call anything sport. The hon. member
said that he was glad that the Government passed a Reso-
lution for sending the Tennis Team abroad: we have already
passed that.
6.20 p.m.

Mr. Chairman, we are now dealing with another Reso-
lution, and that is what I was pointing out to the hon. mem-








1020


ber. The Resolution he is dealing with has been passed
already.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I do not agree with the
hon. member. He has much experience in here, and since
we are dealing with Ministry of Health, Housing, Local
Government and Community Development Item 11-Tennis
Courts, this comes under sports, andifthe hon. member
has lapsed, the member should pay a deaf ear in matters
of this sort. If the hon. senior member for St. Michael
makes reference to something that has already been passed,
it is not for the hon. senior member for St. Peter in his
dogmatic style to show off and tellyou that the hon. member
is out of order. I am sure he knew that, and merely said
what he did to bring him back to the straight and narrow
path. I do not intend to interfere any longer, but you are a
Schoolmaster, Mr. Chairman, and you will appreciate what
sports mean to people.

Mr. SEALEY: Mr. Chairman, the Addendum to the
Resolution says that the sum of $620 is required from the
unexpended provision for 1964-65 for the painting and fur-
nishing of changing rooms at the Tennis Courts at Univer-
sity Row and to meet claims amounting to $112.51 which
are not settled by the 31st March, 1965.

I only wanted to comment on the Resolution and say that
the $500 is a meagre sum. I wanted to say also that I hap-
pened to be in the fortunate or unfortunate position of seeing
the men who went to British Guiana with the weightlifting
Association stranded at the Airport on their return. It only
goes to show how humiliating it can before these boys when
they are not able to afford to pay for transportation after
they have represented the Island.

Hon. A. DhC. EDWARDSC Mr. Chairman, Ihave some-
thing to say on the same issuewhich the hon. senior mem-
ber for St. Michael has raised. I wanted someone to raise
the matter earlier. These weighlifters happen to lift weights
in the compound of a certain political organization in this
country, and the leader of the Organization, one who is en-
joying a large pension, went to them and told them that they
should see that the Government help them. Instead of making
direct representation to the Ministry for assistance, they
went to one of the columnists of one of the weekly newspa-
pers to draft a Resolution and gave it to one of the mem-
bers of the Opposition Parties to bring to the Legislature;
but before this was brought...

Mr. SEALEY: On a point of order, regardless of the
political ideology of the boys, they left here to represent
Barbados.

Hon. A. DeC. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, I am not
speaking about the political ideology of the group. What I
am saying is that before representation was made to the
Government for any sort of assistance, a Resolution was
drafted and given to a member of one of the Opposition
Parties to bring to the Legislature, and at the same time
a columnist went to my home telling me that this particu-
lar member was bringing this to the Legislature. This is
not the approach of any Organization which needs assistance
from Government. The next two days a letter came into
the Ministry and the President of the Weightlifting Asso-
ciation knew nothing about it.

Mr. SMITH: On a point of order, I have not seen any-
thing about the Weightlifting Association in this Resolution;
so the hon. member is out of order.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am waiting for the Minister to clear
the air.

Mr. SMITH: But you have just stopped the hon. senior
member for St. MichaeL

Mr. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member must not amendthe
Chairman's decision.

Mr. SMITH: If the Chairman is the whole House, then
we might as well go outside and let the Chairman rule.


Hon. A. DaC, EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, I am replying
to a question raised by the hon. senior member for St.
Michael, and I was saying that a letter came into the Min-
istry the next two days signed bu the Secretary of the Asso-
ciation which the President knew nothing about, and when
the President heard of this letter, he asked to have a dele-
gation of himself and the Secretary come and see me in
the Ministry. The letter asked for assistance for the Weight-
lifting Association that was going to British Guiana, and
there and then the application for assistance was withdrawn
by the President and Secretary of the Association. I just
wanted to get the air cleared on this issue, because one
would think that the Government was aware of the fact that
these people were going to British Guiana or that represen-
tation was made for assistance. Representation was made
and withdrawn, and the Government was told that they would
be able to raise the funds to send the two weightllfters to
British Guiana, but that when they were sending a large
contingent to Mexico to the 1968 Games, they would be
looking forward to the Government for assistance. This is
what actually happened; so the Government does not stand
to be blamed in any way for these people not being able to
pay their taxi fares, because representation was made and
withdrawn.

Mr. SEALEY: Mr. Chairman, I am not accusing the
Minister. All I was saying is that I am glad he found it
possible to offer money for young sportsmen in the island
of Barbados, but I explained the circumstances with the
Weightlifting Association. I have passed the days of sport;
but when I have the time I like to sit down and watch these
young people engaged in something that would prevent them
from breaking people's houses. Playing Table Tennis and
football on evenings keep them out of trouble, because they
are tired when they are finished and go home and sleep.
I was not prepared to say anything about the matter, because
I could have met the Minister privately.

Mr. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, lest the records are not
straight, I think the Hon. Minister has explained that he was
happy that someone had raised this question, and you said
that you gave him an opportunity to clear the air.
6.30 p.m.

Anybody would think that we have power to bring down
a Resolution for money to this House. anyone would know
that a money Resolution cannot be brought down to this
House by a private member of the House. The Hon. Minister
must say that he means the hon. Junior member for St.
George or whoever he means. Do not let it appear that we
can bring down a Resolution. If it is the hon. Junior member
for St. George, say it is the hon. junior member for St.
George. I am sure that my colleague has more sense than
that.

Hon. A. Da C. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, I meant the
hon. junior member for St. George because the Resolution is
on the Order Paper. This was done because a couple of
Weightlifters were lifting weights in the back of the Barba-
dos Labour Party's Headquarters and the ex-Prime Minis-
ter went up to them and said that the Government should be
giving them help. No representation was made prior to this.
You have people trying to make sport into a political foot-
ball.

This Resolution was placed there at the instance of the
Chairman of the Barbados Labour Party who went and saw
these boys lifting weights and told them that they should be
given assistance by the Government. Prior to that, the Editor
of the Beacon came to my house and said that he had given
the hon. junior member for St. George this Resolution ask-
ing for assistance for weightlifters and he asked me to sup-
port it. I told him: "How can I support it when no represen-
tation was made to the Governmentl"

I am not going to allow my Ministry or the Government
to be pushed around by a few political cast-aways who feel
that they are in for some resuscitation.

The question that the Resolution for the sum of
$733 do now pass was put in the affirmative without
division.












On motion of Hon. A. DaC EDWARDS, seconded by
Hon. C. E. TALMA, Mr. CHAIRMAN reported the passing
of two Resolutions in Committee of Supply.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER assumed the Chair and
reported accordingly.



On separate motions of Hon. A. DaC. EDWARDS,
seconded by Hon. C. E. TALMA in each case, the two
Resolutions were read a first and second time and agreed
to.


RESOLUTION re CVIL ESTABLISHMENT
(GENERAL) AMENDMENT NO.5
ORDER, 1965.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The next Order of the day
stands in the name of the Hon. and Learned Premier: to
move the passing of the following Resolution: a Resolution
to approve the Civil Establishment (General) (Amendment)
(No. 5) Order, 1965.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Deputy Speakr. I am
asking for leave to take charge of this Resolution.
There being no objection, leave was granted the Hon.
Minister.
Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Your Honour would note from
the Addendem to the Resolution.
Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER left the Chair and Mrl
SPEAKER took the Chair.
I was saying, Mr. Speaker, that Your Honour would
note from the Addendum that this Order seeks to provide
for adjustments in the establishment structure in the Minis-
try of Education. Since the Ministry of Education and the
departments under its control were integrated, the Ministry
has assumed responsibility for the following additional sub-
jects, but there has been no corresponding increase in per-
manent staff:EcclesiasticalGovernment Industrial Schools,
Public Archives, Broadcasting, Public Relations and Hotel
Training.

This needs more assistance and to provide for that,
this Resolution seeks to create the following additional per-
manent posts:--


1 Assistant Secretary $5,328 7,080


1 Accountant
2 Long Grade Clerks
2 Clerical Assistants


$4,128 5,136
$1,200 2,832
$1,128 1,896


Another part of this Resolution seeks to upgrade the
posts of Buildings and Handicraft Officer from $4,128 5,712
to $4,632 6,288. This adjustment is designed to grade the
post more in line with the duties and responsibilities which
are attached to it.

It is also pointed out in the last paragraph that the ac-
counts section is responsible for the control and expendi-
ture of approximately nine million dollars a year and should
be strengthened by the addition of a post of Accountant. At
present an Assistant Accountant $3,096 3960 is in charge
of the section.

Hon. members will agree that the additional responsi-
bility along with the additional departments merit this in-
crease of staff for the simple reason that the existing staff
is physically incapable of adequately discharging the work
of the posts formerly under that Department, much more
the additional Departments which have been added to it.


I therefore beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.

Mr. LYNCH: Sir, there are one or two comments which
I would like to make on this Civil Establishment Order
before the House. Some of the recent employees of this
particular department are not only physically incapable,
but are mentally incapable of carrying out the work of this
Department.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a
point of order. I said nothing about the physical capacity
of the employees except in terms of their being incapable
of coping with the additional work.

Mr. LYNCH: I am referring to the same thing being
incapable of coping with the additional work. Some recent
errors proceeding from that Department havecausedgreat
concern among some people.
6.40 p.m.

One of the most recent is my receiving a letter inform-
ing me that a certain student who, incidentally, holds seven
passes at Advance Level, would be permitted to sit a cer-
tain examination which had ended two weeks previously.
That is the type of thing which happens in that Department.
If the hon. member would like to see the letter, I would be
only too happy to show it to him. All I am asking is that the
Minister should pass on to his colleague the request from
this side of the House that they should be very careful as to
the type of appointments which they make to thisparticular
Department. One does not expect nonsensical decisions to
come from the Ministry of Education. It is true that there
might be a question of overwork and lack of capacity in this
particular employee. It is also true that very many of the
employees may have only a small connection with the De-
partment of Education. I am passing on this warning that
the people who are selected to work in that particular
Department should have a certain minimum ability.

Mr. CARMICHAEL: Mr. Speaker, where there is more
work to be done there must be more staff to do It, and where
the Department of Education needs more staff so also is
the need of the Registration Office of this Island. The vol-
ume of work in the Registration Office has increased over
the past three or four years in the same way as it has in-
creased in the Department of Education. There is need for
this staff in the Department of Education and there is a
similar need in the Registration Office.


Mr. SPEAKER: I understand that the hon. member is
supporting this Resolution and pointing out at the same time
that there is a great necessity also for increased staff in
the Registration Office.

Mr. CARMICHAEL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is a sim-
ilar lack of staff in the Registration Office, and I hope
that the hon. member will pass on this comment to the
appropriate Minister.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the same thing applies here
too. While I am in support of this Resolution I am drawing
the Hon. Minister's attention ......

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: On a point of order. The hon.
member cannot do that sort of thing.

Mr. SPEAKER: While the hon. senior member for St.
James pointed out that he was supporting this Resolution
for the granting of more staff for the Education Department,
he felt that an Accountant was also needed for the Registra-
tion Department. Is the hon. member supporting this Reso-
lution?

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, did you hear the Hon. Lead-
er of the House?









1022


Mr. SPEAKER: I am not concerned with the Hon.
Leader of the House unless he is on his feet.

Mr. SMITH: I am also drawing the attention of the Gov-
ernment to the Customs Department.


Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: On a point of order. Mr.
Speaker, in all of my time in this House I have never seen
this devious method being used to draw the attention of the
House to any specific matter, with Your Honour in the
Chair, during the debate On a Resolution which is dealing
with something entirely different. This is completely unpar-
liamentary.


Mr. SPEAKER.Both of those hon. members are very
shrewd parliamentarians. They have intimated that they are
supporting this Resolution and incidentally and en passant,
they are pointing out that they would also support, the ap-
pointment of similar officers for the Registration office
and the Customs Department. I think I am seized of the
point.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: The hon. Junior member for
the City has referred to one error which was recently
made by some employee of the Education Department. I
thought that when the hon. member rose to speak.....

Mr. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member now replying to
the debate? Does any other hon. member wish to contri-
bute to this debate before the hon. member replies? (After
a pause).The hon. member may proceed.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: I was saying, Sir, that when
the hon. Junior member for the Oty rose to speak, I thought
he had several accusations to make against this Depart-
ment. In the same way that the proverbial swallow does not
make a summer, I want to submit that a single error made
by a Clerk in the Ministry of Education does not mean that
the entire Ministry is incapable.

Mr. LYNCI: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I have
not made any such allegation. I could give severalinstances
of errors and I am not imputing errors to the whole De-
partment. I am speaking of an error which would have
caused a boy his entire career. Fortunately, theHon. Min-
ister will be glad to hear that this boy has been awarded a
scholarship which is of much greater value than the other
one.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am not saying
that the Department is infallible, but I want to submit that it
should not be castigated just for one error. I do not think it
is necessary for me to reply any further.

The question that this Resolution do now pass
was put and resolved in the affirmative without division,

RESOLUTION TO APPROVE THE CIVIL
ESTABLISHMENT (TEACHERS)
(AMENDMENT) ORDER 1965

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day stands in the
name of the Hon. and Learned Premier:- To move the
passing of the following Resolution:- A Resolution to ap-
prove the Civil Establishment (Teachers) (Amendment)
Order, 1965.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD;Mr. Speaker, I am asking
leave to take charge of this Order which stands in the name
of the Honourable and Learned Premier.

Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the House is asking
leave to take charge of this Order standing in the name of
the Honourable and Learned Premier, and if there is no
objection, leave will be granted. (Pause). There being no
objection, leave is granted. The hon. member may proceed.
6.50 p.m.


Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, this is a rather
simple Resolution. It merely is to make provision whereby
in the event of a post being downgraded, the holder of the
post would retain his former status. I think hon. members
will readily see the advisability of making this provision
so that if in the case of re-organization of a Department or
the integration of the Department into a Ministry the actual
post had to be downgraded, the officer who holds this post
would not suffer because he would retainhis former status.
This is an elementary point of justice in the terms of em-
ployment of public servants or any other employees.

I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I bet'to second that.

Mr. CARMICHAEL: Mr. Speaker, as the Minister out-
lines, one can see the justice in this Resolution. Iam won-
dering, however, If it is clear enough. Would like to know
first of all if this Resolution applies mainly, if not solely,
to teachers of elementary schools. It may be necessary to
know also how many teachers up to the present have suf-
fered through the absence of this piece of legislation and if
there are such teachers who have suffered because of the
downgrading of the schools, whether on the passing of this
Resolution it will be retroactive. My particular reason for
asking is that often a Bill or Resolution.is passed in this
Chamber, but when it comes to administrative reckoning,
there is always a kind of impasse. I would like to know
here and now what is going to be the policy after this Reso-
lution has been passed with regard to teachers whose
schools have been downgraded and whose increments have
been cut off, and what effect this Resolution will have on
them, not to mention what will happen to those who come
after this is passed.

Mr. SPEAKER: If there is no other hon. member who
desires to take part in this debate, the Hon. Minister may
proceed to give his reply.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, actually this is
not my Ministry and I was only acting for the Minister who
is absent, but I think I can satisfy the hon. member in the
point he has raised. This Order will amend the 1961 Civil
Establishment Teachers Orders, and although itis effective
from the date on which it becomes law, provision is being
included for retroactive effect. I think I know the case the
hon. member has in mind a former Headmaster he
can rest assured that the particular claims of this officer
are not being overlooked, as this Resolution will affect the
1961 Order.

Mr. CARMICHAEL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of eluci-
dation, I would like to make something clear. The Minister
said he thinks he knows the case, but I am thinking of more
than one headteacher. I know there is one in the service
who has not yet resigned and eventually it will have some
effect on his pension. The case in point is the Headmaster-
ship of St. Giles Boys' School.

Hon. ,'. A. CRAWFORD: That is exactly the case I
meant.

Mr. SPEAKER: What the Hon. Leader of the House
said s r.ot prefaced by any point. How would that get into
Has .d?

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: The House no doubt will at
any stage of the proceedings give latitude to a Minister to
explain a point.

The question that the Resolution do now pass, was
put and resolved in the affirmative without division.

COMPULSORY ACQUISiTION OF LAND
AT CAVE HILL AND BLACK ROCK

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day stands in the
name of the Hon. and Learned member for St. John: to move
the passing of a Resolution to approve the compulsory ac-
quisition by the Crown of certain parcels of land situate at
Black Rock Cave Hill, St. Michael.











Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am asking
leave to take charge of this Resolution.

Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the House is seek-
ing the leave of this Chamber to proceed with this matter
in the absence of the Hon. Premier, and if there is no ob-
jection, leave will be granted.

There being no objection, leave is granted the Hon.
Leader of the House to proceed with this Resolution.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, this is one of the
normal compulsory acquisition Orders which the Govern-
ment resorts to when it becomes necessary to acquire land
for public purposes. In this case the pieces of land are set
out in the Schedule to the Resolution, and they are all more
or less in the Black Rock/Cave Hill area, and are required
in order to assist in providing a site for the College of Arts
and Science of the University of the West Indies, and for the
Cave Hill Development project.

I do not think, Sir, that I need recite all the pieces when
hon. members would naturally have perused them, What is
set out very clearly are the owners of the land, the areas
of land involved and the precise location of all twenty-eight
pieces. Now the reason for resorting to compulsory acquisi-
tion is because negotiations in all cases have for one reason
or another broken down. In some cases the owners were
abroad, in others they have not accepted the price offered
by the Government, and in others again the owners of the
land have not got in their possession what is known as a
good and marketable title; and for these three main reasons,
it has been impossible to finalise the acquisition of this land.
The acquisition of these sites is regarded as completely
essential for the purposes I have outlined; to get the Cave
Hill project completely underway, providing a proper site
for the University College, and for securing good and inde-
feasible titles for the areas involved. Hon. members can
rest assured that if it were possible to have acquired these
pieces of land without having to resort to the Act, it would
have been done, except perhaps in cases where there was
not a good and marketable title,and under the circumstances
generally speaking, the Government had to resort to the
provisions of this Act in order to give itself a good and
indefeasible title to the entire area involved.

I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.

Hon. C E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division.
7.00 p.m.

BILL POSTPONED

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the day stands in
the name of the hon. junior member for St. Andrew who is
the Hon. Minister of Health. Second reading of the Queen
Elizabeth Hospital Bill, 1965.
Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: I have been informed that
this Bill was actually circulated only yesterday, and hon.
members, therefore, I presume, would require a little more
time to study it. It is not my intention therefore to deal with
it tonight.
Mr. SPEAKER: I do not observe any other thing on the
Order Paper.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Yes, Sir. There is a Resolu-
tion which I gave notice of earlier today which I saidthat
was going to deal with in allits stages today. It stands in the
name of the hon. Junior memberfor St. Lucy and I am ask-
ing leave to take charge of it.

RESOLUTION re REALLOCATION OF PROVISION
FOR ST. MICHAEL'S GIRLS' SCHOOL

Mr. SPEAKER: That is perfectly true. The Hon. Minis-
ter gave notice today of this matter and asked that it be
dealt with in all its stages. Therefore, the only remaining
Order today is this Resolution standing in the name of the
Hon. Minister of Education and which the Hon. Leader of


the House is seeking the indulgence of .the House to take
charge of. It is a Resolution to approve the use for the con-
struction of three classrooms and the provision of furniture
for St Michael's Girls' School of the sum of $24,000 pro-
vided under Capital Estimates, 1965-66 Head 4, Education,
Item 7 St. Michael's Girls' School for the conversion of

the hall of the school into three classrooms and the provi-
sion of furniture.

If there is no objection, leave would be granted the
Hon. Minister. (A PAUSE) Hearing no objection, leave is
granted the Hon. Minister.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD. Mr. Speaker, this Resolution
merely seeks the aquiescence of the House in the variation
of the utilisation of funds already provided for a specific
purpose. If Your Honour would look at the Addendum, you
will see that in the Capital Estimates for the current fin-
ancial year we provided the sum of $24,000 for the conver-
seion of the hall of the St.Michael's Girls' School into three
class rooms and to provide for furniture for these three
classrooms.
Now, Sir, it has been decided that we should not convert
the hall into three classrooms, but that we should build
three additional classrooms and provide the furniture and
let the hall remain as it is.
All this Resolution seeks to do is to give effect to the
variation which has been found warranted under the cir-
cumstances. This is not a fresh vote; it is not any special
departure on any important principle; it merely informs the
Legislature and seeks its approval for the change from the
diverting of the hall into three classrooms to building
three classrooms instead.
I therefore beg to move that this Resolution do now
pass.

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmative
w ithou t di vision.
ADJOURNMENT

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that this House do now adjourn until next Tuesday 31st
August, 1965 at 12 o'clock (noon).

Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
Mr. LYNCH: Speaking on the adjournment, we on this
side of the House question why you have moved the adjourn-
ment until 12 o'clock (noon) next Tuesday when it is clear
that this particular hour of the day is extremely hot during
this summer time, and when it appears from the Orders
which the Government has to deal with that it is absolutely
unnecessary for us to meet at that time.
Mr. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member appreciate that
it is within his competence, so far as the time is concerned,
to move an amendment?

Mr. LYNCH: I am aware of that. The time of 2.30
o'clock on a hot summer's day is just about the time when
we should begin. I do not know if the Hon. Minister has some
important reason for beginning at that hour of 12 o'clock.

Hon. W. A. CRAWFORD: We are going to debate the
Queen Elizabeth Hospital Bill and I presume that is going
to take a long time. I do not know if hon. members would
give up their time for dealing with Private Members'
Business.
The question that this House stands adjourned until
Tuesday, 31st August, 1965, at 12 o'clock (noon) was
resolved in the affirmative, the House dividing as follows:-

AYES: Mr. BA TSON, -on. W. .4. CR4WFORD, Hon.
C. E. T4L MA, GC G. F E R GUSSON, Hon. 4. DaC. EDWARDS,
Mr. LOWE and Vr.Y EARWOOD 7.
NOES: Mr. HOLDER, Mr. SMITH, Mr. SEALEY and
Mr. LYNCH 4.
Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House accordingly.
7.10 p.m.





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