Supplement: House of Assembly,...

Group Title: Official gazette, Barbados
Title: The official gazette
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00076861/00016
 Material Information
Title: The official gazette
Physical Description: v. : ill. ; 33-42 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Barbados
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: BridgetownBarbados Published by authority
Subject: Law -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Barbados   ( lcsh )
Genre: periodical   ( marcgt )
General Note: Caption title.
General Note: Supplements issued for some of the numbers.
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Bibliographic ID: UF00076861
Volume ID: VID00016
Source Institution: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: aleph - 001043625
oclc - 12594829
notis - AFC6434

Table of Contents
        Page 117
        Page 118
        Page 119
        Page 120
    Supplement: House of Assembly, 21st August, 1956
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Full Text




, N 16
tNO. 16






NOTICE No. 119
The House of Assembly will meet on Tuesday
5th March. 1957 at 3 o'clock p.m.

NOTICE No. 120
The application of Girdwood Alvaro Licorish
"shopkeeper," of Garden, St. James, for permission
to sell Spirits, Malt Liquors, &c., at a two roofed
gable wall and galvanized and wooden shop attached
to residence at Garden, St. James.
Dated this 22nd day of February 1957.
To:-S. H. NURSE, Esq.
Ag. Police Magistrate, Dist. "E", Iloletown.
for Applicant.
N.B.-This application will be considered at a
Licensing Court to be held at Police Court, District
"E" Holetown on Friday the 8th day of March 1957
at 11 o'clock, a.m.
Ag. Police Magistrate, Dist. "E", H'town.

NOTICE No. 113 -(second publication)


LIMITED, a corporation organized under the laws
of the Dominion of Canada, whose trade or business
address is 297 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario,
Canada, has applied for the registration of a trade
mark in Part "A" of Register in respect of Lager
Beer, and will be entitled to register the same
after one month from the 21st day of February
1957 unless some person shall in the meantime give
notice in duplicate to me at my office of opposition
of such registration. The trade mark can be seen
on application at my office.

Dated this 20th day of February 1957.

Acting Registrar of Trade Marks.

II~---~---------. -- ~__---- --------- ~

_ I_ c^- -~

-- ----- --

I !1

0a r&Ou11n 3
1- 7V:- 7 F*. -. i = I
^l l ll ltl llilililli11lil



NOTICm No. 366 -(sixth publication)


re Estate of

NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that all persons
having any debt or claims against the Estate of
late of Strathclyde in the parish of Saint Michael
in this Island who died on the 21st day of September
1956 are requested to send in particulars of their
claims duly attested to the under-signed HENRY
HUTSON INNISS, c/o Messils. Carrington and
Sealy, Solicitors, Lucas Street, Bridgetown, on or
before the 28th day of February 1957, after which
date I shall proceed to distribute the estate of the
deceased among the parties entitled thereto having
regard only to such claims of which I shall then
have had notice and I will not be liable for the
assets or any part thereof so distributed to any
person of whose debt or claim I shall not then have
had notice.

AND all persons indebted to the said Estate
are requested to settle their indebtedness without
Dated this 4th day of December, 1956.

Qualified Executor of the will of

NOTICE No. 111 -(second publication)


Applications are invited from suitably qualified
candidates for appointment to the post of Head-
master, Dominica Grammar School, particulars of
which are as follows:

The post is on the permanent and pensionable
establishment and the appointment carries with it
liability to transfer to any post of equivalent status in
the Windward Islands.

The salary is in the scale of $3,840 x 120-$4,560
plus pensionable pay addition of 20% of salary. The
point of entry into, the scale will be determined ac-
cording to the candidate's qualification and experi-

Qualification Required
Degree in Science of a recognized University.

Officer appointed will be required to teach Chem-
istry and Physics to Higher School Certificate
Standard and Supervise a school of 260 boys; knowl-


edge of games and all other extra-curricular activities
associated with a Secondary School; he will be re-
quired to take part in out of School activities; he will
also be required to perform any other duties which
*nay be assigned to him from time to time.

Quarters are not provided.

The officer will be eligible for vacation leave at
the rate of 45 days for each completed period of 12
months resident service, accumulating up to a maxi-
mium of 180 days.

Leave Passages
Leave passages will be provided in accordance
with local General Orders.

General Information
The officer will be subject to the Colonial Regu-
lations, the Windward Islands Financial and Store
;hules, the local General Orders and subsidiary legis-
lation in force from time to time. Government
officials are liable to taxation imposed by local cnuct-

Applications containing full particulars, inclu-
ding qualifications and experience of applicant,
should be forwarded to the Chief Secretary, Windward
] lands, Grenada, to reach him not later than the 31st.
March, 1957.


29 ---(fourth publication).


Re the estate of

NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that all persons
having any debt or claim against the Estate of
F'ranetta Bovell, deceased, late of Water Hall in
the Parish of Saint Michael in this Island who died
on the 5th day of July 1955, intestate, are requested
to send in particulars of their claims duly attested
to the undersigned Sheila Delgator Bovell, O/o
Messrs. Haynes & !Griffith Solicitors, No. 12 High
Street, Bridgetown, on or before the 15th day
of March 1957, after which I shall proceed to dis-
tribute the assets of the deceased among the parties
entitled thereto having regard only to such claims
of which I shall then have had notice and I will not
be liable for the assets or any part thereof so dis-
tributed to any person of whose debt or claim I shall
not have had notice.

And all persons indebted to the said estate are
requested to settle their said indebtedness without

Dated this 11th Jay of January, 1957

Qualified Administratrix of the Estate of

Fun~u~x 25, 1957. OFFICIAL GAZETTE

NoTICE No. 114-(second publication)

That J. P. COATS, LIMITED, a British Com-
pany, Manufacturers and Merchants, whose trade
or business address is Ferguslie Thread Works,
Paisley Scotland, has applied for the registration
of a trade mark in Part "A" of Register in respect
of Bias Binding limited to the colours red and
grey and white as shown, and will be entitled to
register the same after one month from the 21st
day of February 1957, unless some person shall in
the meantime give notice in duplicate to me at my
office of opposition of such registration. The trade
mark can be seen on application at my office.

Dated this 20th day of February 1957.

Acting Registrar of Trade Marks.

NOTICE No. 115 -(second publication)


PANY, a corporation duly organised under the laws
of the State of Delaware, United States of America,
whose trade or business address is Brookside Avenue,
Ambler, Pennsylvania, United States of America,
has applied for the registration of a trade mark
in Part "A" of Register in respect of herbicides,
and will be entitled to register the same after one
month from the 21st day of February 1957 unless
some person shall in the meantime give notice in
duplicate to me at my office of opposition of such
registration. The trade mark can be seen on applica-
at my office.
Dated this 20th day of February 1957.
Acting Registrar of Trade Marks.

NOTICE No. 116 -(second publication)


trading as Ecat' Products Co., whose trade or busi-
ness address is No. 29 Roebuck Street, Bridgetown,
Barbados, has applied for the registration of a
trade mark in Part "A" of Register in respect of
coffee, chocolate, pepper and other food products,
and will be entitled to register the same after one
month from the 21st day of February 1957 unless
some person shall in the meantime give notice in
duplicate to me at my office of opposition of such
registration. The trade mark can be seen on applica-
tion at my office.
Dated this 20th day of February 1957.
Acting Registrar of Trade Marks.

NOTICE No. 117-(second publication)


PANY, a corporation duly organised under the laws
of the State of Delaware, United States of America,
whose trade or business address is Brookside Avenue,
Ambler, Pennsylvania, United States of America,
has applied for the registration of a trade mark in
Part "A" of Register in respect of fertilizers, and
will be entitled to register the same after one month
from the 21st day of February 1957 unless some
person shall in the meantime give notice in duplicate
to me at my office of opposition of such registration.
The trade mark can be seen on application at my
Dated this 20th day of February 1957.
Acting Registrar of Trade Marks.




F~raBauAx 25, 1957.



RESOLUTION NO. 4/1957 M.P: 7471/T 1

Resolved that the sum of TEN THOUSAND AND ONE DOLLARS be
granted from the Public Treasury and placed at the disposal of the Gov-
ernor-in-Executive Committee to supplement the Estimates, 1956-57, Part
1-Current as shown in the Supplementary Estimates, 1956-57 No. 48,
which form the Schedule to this Resolution, and that the Legislative
Council be invited to concur herein, and if concurred in,

Resolved that His Excellency the Governor be asked to assent and take
the necessary steps to give effect to this Resolution.
22nd January, 1957

Concurred in by the Legislative Council the twenty-ninth day of
January, 1957.

Senior Member Presiding.

I assent,
30th January, 1957.


Supplementary Estimates, 1956-57 No. 48

Provision in Provision in Supplementary
Approved Esti- Supplementary Provision
HEAD AND ITEM mates 1956-57 Estimates Required
OF Nos. 1-47
ESTIMATES Fixed Voted Fixed Voted Fixed To be
by by by Voted
Law Law Law

$ $ $ $ $ $


63. Books .. 85 -- 1(1)


63. Central Government

Elections 28,360 10,000 (2)


F RuAvuY 25, 1957.

10,000 (2)





OM rial









Tuesday, 21st August, 1956.
Pursuant to the adjournment the House of
Assembly met at 3 o'clock p.m. today.
His Honour Mr. K. N. I. HUSBANDS, (S'pieakcr),
Hon. G. H. ADAMS, C.M.G., Q.C., B.A., (Premier),
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS, C.B.E., M.D., C.M.,
(Minister of Social Services), Hon. M. E. Cox,
(Minister of Communications, Works and Housing),
Mr. L. E..SMITH, J.P., (Chairman of Committees),
Hon. R. G. MAPP, (Minister of Trade Industry and
Labour), Mr. T. O. BRYAN, Mr. F. C. GODDARD,
(Leader of the Opposition), Mr. F. E. Miller, Mr.
J. A. HAYNES, B.A., Mr. E. St. A. HOLDER, Mr. V.
B. VAUGHAN, Hon. C. E. TA.LMA, (Minister of Agri-
culture Lands and Fisheries), Mr. J. C. TUDOR, M.A.
Prayers were read.
Mr. SPEAKER: I have the honour to inform
the House that the Minutes for the last meeting are
not yet ready for circulation.
Mr. SPEAKER: I have the honour to inform
the House that I have received the Financial Report
of the Accountant General of Barbados for the
month ended 30th June, tnis year.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I am com-
manded to lay the following:-
Quarterly Return of Transactions in Rum to
30th June, 1956.
Public Officers' Loan and Travelling Allowances
(Scheduled Officers) (No. 2) Regulations, 1956

Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Speaker, I am command.
ed to lay the following:-
Reply to question asked by Mr. J. E. T. Braneker
on 29th May, 1956, regarding the number of omni-
buses used in the Public Transport system.
Reply to question asked by Mr. F. E. Miller on
3rd July, 1956, in connection with the installation
of water standposts in the parish of St. George.
Reply to q-iestion asked by Mr. T. O. Bryan on
3rd July, 1956 regarding the Coast Road from Lands
End to Bats Rock.
Reply to question asked by Mr. J. A. Haynes
on the 24th July, 1956 respecting tenantry road re-
construction in the parish of St. Andrew.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to
give notice of the following Resolution:-
Resolution to place the sum of $41,500 at the
disposal of the Governor-in-Executive Committee to
supplement the Estimates 1956-57, Part I-Current,
as shown in the Supplementary Estimates 1956-57,
No. 22 which forms the Schedule to the Resolution.
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give
notice of the following Resolution:-
Resolution to authorise the Accountant Gen-
eral to make advances from time to time to the
Postmaster General of such sums (not exceeding
$1,500,000 outstanding at any time) as may be
necessary to enable him to pay Money Orders.
I should also like at this stage, Sir, to inform
the House that it is my intention to ask for leave to
deal with this Resolution today as it is a very urgent
matter. Your Honour will remember that I sought
Your Honour's permission to have this Resolution
circulated before today in order that we may be
able to get it through today.
Hon. R. G. MAPP: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give
notice of a Bill to amend the Customs Tariff Act.
I am also asking leave to withdraw a similar
Customs Tariff Bill which is Order No. 3 on today's
Order Paper.

~---"-- I .____~_ _~-~___-~
---- --


- -------------------------;

NO. 16

O~ i' .LCIAL GAZETTE ~2BRUARY 25, 1957.

Mr. SPEAKER: The honourable member has
asked leave to withdraw Order No. 3 and unless
there be any objection leave will be granted.
There being no objection leave was granted the
Hon. Minister.
Hon. C. E. TALMA: Mr. Speaker, I beg to give
notice of a Bill to repeal tne Department of Science
and Agriculture Act, 1925.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: Mr. Speaker, I
beg to give notice of my intention to move the
House into Committee of Supply at its next meet-
ing to consider the Resolution for $41,500.
Mr. Speaker, I beg to give notice of a Bill to
amend, the Officers of Assembly (Salaries) Act, 1912.


Hon. R. G. MAPP: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move
that a Bill to amend the Customs Tariff Act, 1921,
be read a first time.
Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the af-
firmative without division.
On the motion of Hon. C. E. Talma, second-
ed by Hon. M. E. COX. the Bill to repeal the
Department of Science and Agriculture Act, 1925,
was read a first time.
On the motion of Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUM-
MINS, seconded by Hon. M. E. COX, the Bill to
amend the Officers of the Assembly (Salaries) Act,
1912, was read a first time.


Mr. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister is asking
leave to take Order No. 2 as the first Order of the
Day and unless there be any objection, leave will
be granted.
There being no objection, leave was granted the
Hon. Minister.
On motion of Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS
seconded by the Hon. M. E. COX, the House went
into Committee of Supply, Mr. Smith in the Chair.
Visit of Prison Expert.

Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: Last week, I
gave an intimation of what this $600 was for. As I
said, there is a Prisons' Officer in the area who was
on his way to British Guiana to do a similar job of
investigating the Prisons there, and Government
thought it would be a nice opportunity in view of
the circumstances, to have an Officer of his experi-
ence, and at the same time, to go and look in and
advise on our Prison here. He arrived here yester-
day morning and will be here for five days; this
$600 is to pay the expenses in connection with this
visit which includes his passages and subsistence
I beg to move that this Resolution do now pass.
Hon. M. E. COX: I beg to second that.
3.25 p.m.
Mr. TUDOR: It is seldom, I think, that this
House has had a more nonsensical proposition put
before it. In so far as this Resolution is concerned,
obviously there must be certain things which puzzled
hon. members and especially hoon. members
who are on this side of the House. Now I was
not in my place last, Tuesday, but I listened to the
radio reports which dealt with our proceedings here,
and also spoke to hon. members as to what had
transpired. I formed the impression most distinctly
that this person whom it is proposed to bring here
and who has already arrived to look into our Prison
system, could not possibly have come here unless he
had been specifically invited to do so.

Now, Mr. Chairman, it was said that one of the
reasons why it was felt necessary that this House
should meet last Thursday instead of today, was
that it was necessary to have this money voted on
Thursday, so that the invitation could be sent to this
gentleman in time for his arrival on Monday. That
is what I was made to understand.
Hon. G. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman,-
Mr. TUDOR: On what is the honourable mem-
bar rising?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: He is rising on a point of
Mr. TUDOR: But he has not said that.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: So what? Nobody on this
side of the House said that the money was necessary
in order to send this gentleman an invitation. If the
honourable member is quoting anybody, he should
quote him correctly. Sometimes it is done inadvert-
ently, but it always happens with him.
Mr. TUDOR: I would not have have anybody
to draw any red herring across the trail. How did
this gentleman come to be here Are they going to
tell us then that they took it up on themselves, with
out knowing where the money was going to come
from, to ask this gentleman to come here? Who
authorised them to do it? Do they think that this
House of Assembly is at long last their rubber stamp,
that they knew it was alright that they could invite
this gentleman officially? Did not one of them say
last week that unless the money was voted they stood
to lose the opportunity of getting this man's services!
That could only be their argument.
It was an honourable member on this side of
the House who said that he was willing to meet last
Thursday only if the cost of defraying the expense
of this gentleman would come out of the pocket 'f
the Minister themselves. But the point is this: I
have not yet strated to argue the main issue, I am
arguing first that the privileges of this House
seem to be going by the board. I have had it, in this
instance at any rate, on the authority of their own
mouths, that this person for whom they are now ask-
ing this money, arrived here yesterday, and they
are asking us to believe that it is the merest coin-
cidence that he is here and that all we can do now
to straighten up the matter is to give them the money
for which they are now asking. Who gave them the
authority to invite this gentleman here? How could
they tell beforehand that the House would be pre-
pared to have him or to defray his expenses? And
if he came yesterday, and if it is still alright to
vote the money for him, why did they make such a
fuss about wanting the House to meet on Thursday?
With whom do they] think they are dealing?
The next point is this: it has now come to the
point that there are no words in the English lan-
guage which can describe the utter folly and absur-
dity of the things which are being done by the Gov-
ernment, but certain facts stand out with respect to
what they are now proposing. They are saying that
an expert in Prison Administration from the United
Kingdom happens to be in the Caribbean area, per-
haps at the express invitation of the British Guianese
Government, to advise on Prisons and Prison reform
and conditions in British Guiana, and, according to
them, it is a good opportunity for him to come here
aud assist them in similar matters. But, Mr. Chair-
man, everybody knows,-and they themselves must
know it, that they have appointed a Committee of
Enquiry, authorised by them not only to go into
the causes of the recent disturbances at the Prison,
but also to go into all other matters connected with
Prison maintenance and administration. Are they
how telling us that before their own Committee have
reported to them, and before they know exactly what

EIRuARaY 25, 1957.


F U 2 1957 OE

has been happening in an Institution which is Gov-
ernment run, they propose to ask the taxpayers of
this Island to spend another $600 to super-impose a
one-man enquiry on a three-man Committee? Are
they telling us that this gentleman, for the few days
when he will be here, will be seconded or co-opted on
the Committee of Enquiry which has already been
set up, to give them the benefit of his knowledge and
whatever assistance he can give
I do not feel that we should any longer sit down
under these snap-dash methods of doing things What
you would have thought in a matter like this where
the Hon. Minister is introducing this Resolution, he
would have treated the House with the courtesy of
allowing it at least to know whether or not the pres-
ent Committee of Enquiry is inadequate and the de-
gree to which it therefore becomes necessary to make
use of the services of this extra person. That is the
outline which we should have been given; the Minis-
ter has not treated us with that courtesy because ii
has long Become the custom of lhis House for Minis-
ters and Government Members especially, not to give
the House any information which it should have be-
cause they think that it is impertinence for us to ask
for such information, and it is unnecessary for us
to have any interest in the matter at all. But I am
hard to satisfy id this respect..
3.35 p.m.
Before this Resolution can have my support, th,
Hon. Minister will have to tell this House what
has happened. He ought to be prepared at least
to give us an interim report of the findings, always
supposing he is in a position to do so, and to say,
what difficulties, if any, the Committee which they
set up is encountering, and therefore why it become
necessary for this extra person to come here at Gov-
ernment's expense.
Now, only they, Mr. Chairman, would think tnai
a person who is here for four or five days-which
would cause the necessity of this $600 to be spent-
will have been here long enough to find out what is
wrong with any Barbadian institution and especially
any institution over which they have control. It
is just their superficial way of thinking that in four
or five days this man will be able to tell them, not
to tell us, what is wrong. If they think, Mr Chair.
man, that that is the way their business should b
done, we do not think we need worry, grieve or sor
row for them. Why I am concerned, Mr. Chair
man, is because there is a principle at stake. Ho-w
comes it that in a matter which is judged by them
to be of such paramount importance they can fail
entirely to give the whole House the facts? But 1
am not surprised at all. It is well known that thL
Hon. Minister of Social Services is not at all inclin
etto favour this House with any vital information
respect to any department for which he is re
sponsible. He assumes that what is known to him
is known to the rest of us, and indeed if it is known
to him it does not mean that it should be known to
the rest of us.
With respect to the substance of the matter-
the conditions at the Prison-no man should be
rash enough to pronounce judgement until the Offi
cial Committee which has been appointed by them
has reported. You may have your opinion; I may
have mine; but they might not be the same opinion.
With that we are to not now concerned; but to ask
me Mr. Chairman, to sit here and allow them to gei
away with what I call nonsense by giving them $600
to bring a man here after they have set up Corn
mittee which has not reported is encourasring them

in foolishness and that is what I am not prepared
to do.
I am not convinced aMr. Chairman, that it is
Necessary at all to have this man. This whole thing
is too snap-dash. This Government is comprised oi
the kind of people on whom you cannot rely to
take up a serious suggestion at a moment's notice.
Any Government that is made of responsible people.
if they had trouble in a Prison or in any public In-
Ftitution which they thought merited a public,
enquiry, would not set up a local committee if they
did not feel that the personnel of the Committee were
competent. One of the members of the Committee
of Enquiry which they have set up is a member of the
Executive Committee. He is one of their chief
friends and supporters of the Other Place, so that
they have direct knowledge of what the Committee
is finding out, what it will find out, and what it will
recommend long before the rest of us. Are we now
being told that their colleague, the member of the
Executive Committee, has suddenly discovered that
the Committee of Enquiry of which he is a member
is no longer competent to investigate the matter
within the terms of reference and has recommended
to them that extra help should be called in? If that
is so, Mr. Chairman, it is silly to pretend that the
visit for four or five days of a man who by chance is in
Barbados would put right what has been going wrong.
They cannot understand-and it is difficult to make
them understand-that you just do not do things
that way. If you feel that the conditions at your
Prison are so serious as to warrant an investigation
or an enquiry, then set up a proper Committee
You cannot set up a Committee of personnel mem
bers of the 'Government and have them report to you,
and before the Committee makes known its findings
you decide that you are going to bring in a man who
is in British Guiana to do something which that
Committee has been called specifically upon to do.
Why should the taxpayers money of the Island be
frittered away to bring somebody here who on the
face of it can achieve nothing? Why should you
give him subsistence allowance and all of that when
you know beforehand that the scope and range or
his activities will not provide the results you want?
I do not agree with this Resolution, Mr. Chairman
and I do not suppose that many who think about it
seriouslyy will. It is a nonsensical waste of public
funds and that it has come here is a disgrace.
Mr. F. L. WALCOTT: Mr. Chairman, you ar.
well aware of the methods that are used in a matter
such as this, because as a loyal member of the La.
hour Party you are one who subscribes to these ad
hoc and chance-like methods of doing things whicbN
come up to be dealt with in the portals of the
peculiar organisation of the Party; but when you
find the same attitude of mind prevailing in things
which are to be dealt with by the Government, those
of us who respect proper methods of doing things
within public administration have to speak against
such methods being used in the public interest.
Now, Sir, it is not unusual that such a Resoiu
tion would come from the Minister who holds this
portfolio, because his method of dealing with social
matters has been one of using anything palliative or
expedient in order to get something done, even if it
comes to making a suggestion like the famous sugges-
tion which was to make people pay more for opera-
tions and then to deny he had anything to do with it.
This is another instance of how this Government
does things. What Government after agreeing to
the setting up of a Committee of Enquiry to deal
with anything arising out of a disturbance at tie

FLBPRuLpRP 25, 1957.




Prison would not think it necessary to have a W\hite
Paper issued or to make a statement on the matter l
Instead of that, you are now bringing something
before Parliament to deal with an Institution which
you have set up a Committee to investigate. You
nave brought something by which the public of Bar-
bados would be asked to vote money for a person
who happened to be in British Guiana, or was going
to British Guiana to make investigation into Prisoin
discipline there; but with all that you are doing, the
public of Barbados would not know anything oi
what has taken place at the Prison or what has
caused this Government to set up the Committee.
3.45 p.m.
Can they say whether it is the recommendation
of the Committeet Has the Committee reported? 11
the Committee has not reported, way is it that you
are going ahead of the Report and bringing someone
to go into the administration? As soon as you do this
it means that your administration has broken down,
because if it were a routine thing that the Colonial
Office had sent out a man to go into Prison admin-
istration, expenses in connection with bringing him
here would not occur because Colonial Development
and Welfare would pay for that; but this is just
What happened when you had the Richardson Report
and the Minister of Social Services sat down on it
for two years and then brought in Old Age Pension,
and now he cannot say what is the position today
'with the Workmen's Compensation Act....
Mr. OHAIRM1AN: This has nothing to do with
the Workmen's Compensation Act.
Mr. F. L. WALCOTT: It has something to do
with it because it is in comparison with getting some-
one to come here as in the case of Professor 'Richard-
son, and I am entitled to make these analogies; and
if you cannot accept this statement I am not re-
sponsible. Because it is not written in the Act it
does not mean that the Workmen's Compensation
Act cannot be compared with this. I am saying that
Professor Richardson made a Report, and the Minis-
ter took two years before acting on it.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am warning the hon. mem-
Mr. F. L. WALCOTT: I need no warning; I am
man enough to understand the English that is spok-
en from the Chair. I have had sufficient warnings,
and I have been put in Court. You can take me to
Court like the others if I say something you do not
agree with; so I need no warning. If you have to make
a ruling you can do that but I need no one to warn me
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I want to say one word to
the hon. member: you must pay some regard to the
Mr. F. L. WALCOTT: I am saying that ihe
Hon. Minister of Social Services had a Report by
Professor Richardson for two years dealing with
matters of a social nature, and it was on the same
basis that he was invited here, because he was in the
area. This same Minister is asking to bring a Prisons
Administrator here, which means that the Committee
which you have set up is incapable, and you have
to bring a man to say what is wrong with the admin-
istration. Is it a secret, or a private affair of his that
he can control it as he likes, and cannot say to the
public why it is that the Administrator must come?
Should we spend [public funds like that? If he is
not prepared to say so, why should we vote?
Let us take it this way, Mr. Chairman; let us
forget the words used outside the House about
somebody warning them; nobody can warn us about
anything here, because we are free to be in here.
ILet them warn the public, let them warn the Elector-
ate that if they do not vote they are going to send


FEBRUARY 25, 1957.

them to the same Prison; and if you do not do this or
tnat, this is what is going to happen. They nave not
had the success which they expected to have, so they
have to resort to this now. I want to make it clear
that we cannot sit here in this House and because
Government brings something and acts stupidly, we
must act stupidly too. Why is there no White Paper
on this report? Why are you going to bring him
here? Because he is in British Guiana or because he
is in the area. If he were not in the area there would
not be any dispute over what was stated. You have
people incapable of doing certain things; and if
the Hon. Minister is incapable of preparing the in-
formation, he could let his Permanent Secretary
write the thing for him for presentation, and let
us know why you need these things because we feel
sure that maybe instead of being at the Prison, he
should be in another public institution; he would
be more entitled to the Mental Hospital considering
the method in which he has presented this thing
Only a crazy man could bring this Resolution in the
summary way in which he has presented it to the
House, and there he is smiling with his smugness.
His smugness is just like when Nero twiddled his
thumbs while Rome was burning. His smugness is an
indication that this would get through, no matter
what is said. You should tell the public what has
happened at the Prison, and what has caused the
Government to say, despite the Committee set up,
that it is necessary to have a Prison Administrator.
People talk about insulting other people, and some
of the same people insulted people to the extent in
the past and even told them to lay down in the
road and not to move; so with all the violent things
you ask them to do, you would have to build more
prisons. It is one of the institutions which we must
have in, our society, but we realise that in a Prison,
there should be conditions that are humane; you do
not build them for animals, but for human beings.
If you have to investigate it, do so by all means; but
let Parliament know what this Administrator is going
to do before the Committee has reported. What can
the Administrator do before the Committee makes its
Report ? Is he going to be a member of the Committee
set up already? If he is to be included on the Com-
mittee, you are only adding to it, but you have
already set up a Committee, so why can't you say
why you need him, what are the reasons, and-what
is more important-why it is that the information
has been withheld from the public up to now, and
that Parliament cannot know -today what has taken
place at the Prison even with the limited knowledge
you have?
In the United Kingdom, if they felt that some-
thing could not be told, they would say it is not in
the interest of the public, or it is not expedient or
wise to let them know, but with this Committee,
nothing has been reported. We are not fighting a
war; there is no war on between the Prison inmates
and the public outside; and we in Parliament feel
if you are coming here and asking us to vote money
after you have set up a Committee, the least you can
do, is to tell Parliament what has taken place at the
Prison, and what is the situation that you must bring
a Prison Administrator from British Guiana.
3.55 p.m.
Mr. ALLDER: Mr. Chairman, we who are sun-
posed to be democrats are being forced, Sir, to the
stage when we are regretting the democratic frep-
dom which used to be enjoyed in this Honourable
Place and the tyranny which is now being forced
upon it.
Last Tnesdav the Hon. Minister of Social Ser-
vices attemnted to rate-crash this Chamber with this
name Resolution, and a sufficient number of hon. mem


bers expressed their disapproval of it in sufficient
terms. If the Hon. Minister and his colleague had
realized that even although they run the Government.
it is their duty to respect those who are opposite them
regardless of how large or how small their numbers
might be, this Resolution would not have been brought
here now, and it would not have been brought here
'or this purpose if the Government has among itf
ranks any administrative ability. This Resolution ia
definitely unnecessary; this matter has to be consid-
cred. We do not have such abominable criminals at
Glendairy Prison as you might find in Chicago or in
certain parts of the London Jails so that the Govern-
ment, with a few legal advisers, could not take evi-
dence from those who are attached to that Institution
and make recommendations for improved conditions
What is peculiar is that every time the Govern-
ment wants to throw away a couple of dollars on some-
thing which cannot be considered as very expedient
they can always find somebody next door in Trinidad
or British Guiana who would be willing to step in
to investigate their business for them. When i: was
the question of the buses somebody was passing
through here who would be willing to stop in to
investigate the running of the Transport. Now, sud-
denly there is this gentleman, they say he is in British
Guiana or Trinidad, and he was quite willing to comn"
to Barbados to investigate what? Nothing at all
which would warrant the spending of this money for
the purpose. As soon as two or three school boys start
to make a noise at Wesley Hall or the Moraviar
School, the Government will say that some specialist
is in Trinidad, and therefore let us spend some
more dollars in getting him here. The Government
does not care how it fritters away the taxpayers'
money, because many of them do not seem to b::
sufficiently interested in the administration, on eco-
nomical lines, of this Colony.
If I were the Hon. Minister of Social Services
with matters relating to the Prison under my port
f'Aio, this is what I would have done; I would look
about for certain officers, probably of the Army, the
Police, the Government Industrial Schools and some
social workers and call them in to summon a, Com-
mittee. I would sit as Chairman of the Committep,
and take evidence from the Superintendent of the
Prison back down to the prisoners; and I would be
able to read between the lines and pin-point the
faults and make recommendations for improvement,
but the Hon. Minister of Social Services is definitely
lazy and tired of politics, because his progress hat
been too sullen and therefore he is lazy and disin-
terested. All he says is this: "Why should I worry
about a Hospital or about a couple of prisoners ? I am
not killing myself out. I will relax until I am ready
to go to the Other Place or go up the hill." laughterr].
The Hon. Minister has displayed that lethargic atti-
tude which does not become a proper Minister of a
responsible Government.
Tt is unnecessary to spend this money, I repeat.
You have a couple of youngsters up there and most
of them are teenagers. They went up on the roof of
the Prison because the warders who were responsible
for keeping them under control were made to be dis-
gruntled about all the shortsighted handling of Gov-
crnment Servants by the Government. The warder-
were kept back until the last minute when most ot
them expected to get selection for the Bahamas Prison
and then the order was sent down: "We are not allow-
ing you to go anywhere." And while they were refus-
ing to give the warders permission--
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: Mr. Chairman
on a point of order. There is a Commission of Enquiry

sitting at the moment enquiring into certain matters
at the prison. The hon. member has made certain
references to certain of the staff and so on; is that in
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I thought that the Committee
had made their report to the hon. member, judging
from the way in which he was speaking.
Mr. ALLDER: I claim the right to discuss this
matter. Those hon. members ought to know that other
hon. members would discuss matters relating to the
Prison if they persisted in bringing this Resolution
before this Chamber. We are objecting to the expen-
diture of this money because we know that a Com-
mittee had sent in its report and if they had recom-
mended that some body should be brought in from
overseas to do what they could not do, then we would
be satisfied with the expenditure of this money. This
Committee has been recommended by the Hon. Min-
ister of Social Services, I presume, and the Hon.
Minister is now saying: "Although we have appointed
you to this Committee, we have not got any confidence
in your ability to make proper recommendation and
therefore we are sending somebody new over your
heads not only to investigate the present conditions
but also to investigate the Committee of Enquiry
which has been appointed."
What is more, if the Government were not, obli-
vious to constructive suggestions, long before now
improvements would have been affected at the Prison.
I stood alone for many years when we were discuss-
ing the Estimates, and I would say that because Gov-
ernment is so much beyond reach, many people have
had to come to some of us and lay their complaints.
When they laid their complaints to me, I came here
to this Chamber and passed them on to the Govern.
ment; but the Government never made any attempt
to improve the conditions.
4.05 p.m.
Now that everything has reached melting point,
they are running helter-skelter appointing two, three,
four, five, six Committees of investigation; and they
are doing this just because they do not have to give
account to anybody for their misdeeds. They do not
have to explain why so much has been frittered away
from so little which has been there. That is what hap-
pened. Every time the cock crows, the Government
says that they are going to import a man. They say.
"We are .going to pay his subsistence allowance,
travelling allowance and every possible iota."
This is what I would like to know from the Gov-
ernment: Has the Hon. Minister of Social Services
who is responsible for the Prison, or the Police Au-
thority, or the Prison Authority, apologised to those
residents of Station Hill whose houses were saturated
ed with the mustard gas which was used at the
Prison on the day of the disturbance there? Has he
apologised to those persons who were passing Station
Iiill, and who were not involved in the disturbances
at the Prison, but who suffered injury to their eyes
ns a result of the use of mustard gas? This Govern-
ment only gets off because when anything happens
like a calamity, the poor and defenceless always
suffer and suffer without compensation. I can tell
the Hon. Minister now that there was a woman with
a young baby who lived nearby who had to move
out of a house with her young baby because of the
use of mustard gas at the Prison on that day. The
Hon. Minister of Social Services out of courtesy and
responsibility should extend sympathy and make an
apology to those people. I can tell him that I tool
got some of that mustard gas in my eyes. When the
Hon. Premier introduced the measure to get it done
I was the first man in this House who fought against
it and I was the first man in this House to get some
of it in my eyes.On that day I was going home for
breakfast, and as I stopped to enquire what was go-


l ti~ ttArrav 9.?1 19_57

,IIZ TIR,2 15

ing on, my eyes began to spring water because of its
use. Those are the injustices which this Government
would perpetuate.
Mr. Chairman, there is no reason for having thc
use of this man, regardless of how adept he may-be
at Prison reform, because whenever he makes his
recommendations, he cannot compel the administra
tion at the Prison that they should not withhold the
latitude which warders must have if order must
prevail at the Prison. He cannot prevent one section
from working against one section. He cannot prevent
. one section from lining up with the prisoners and
thus cause a break down in the discipline. He can-
not compel warders to respect prisoners as they
should, and that is why it is a waste of time if wt
spend this $600.
The prisoners at present at Glendairy are for
the most part between the ages of 18, 20, 21 and 22
years. They are young adventurous youths. That is
all it is to that. They saw the opportunity for doing
what they did. They heard the grumblings of those
who were to keep them in order, and because of that,
we saw some of them lined up on the side of some
warders. As I have said, the opportunity presented
itself and they said: "We are going on top of the
roof." If the administration had any commonsense,
it would have avoided using tear-gas and wasting
water in trying to get them down, because they would
have to come down. What has happened is that the use
of such things has caused injury to residents in the
area and without resulting compensation and apology
That is all that the administration has done because
a-hungry man cannot remain indefinitely on the top
of. a roof.
Mr. Chairman, I noticed certain Government
members, on the same day and at the same hours
when the disturbance was taking place at the Prison,
passing by without stopping to see or hear what was
happening. None of them, with the authority and
responsibility which they have, stopped in to see if
they would be able to bring about an amicable un-
derstanding between the staff and the prisoners.
Members of the Government Jignored what was
going on although it was their responsibility.
Nobody can prevent the 'Government, powerful
and authoritative as it is, from spending this money.
If it were six million dollars that they wanted to
spend, it would be passed: we have reached the stage
in politics in Barbados where it would be passed:
but we must blame the electorate. When you give in-
dividual politicians and parties absolute power and
blind co-operation, that party of individuals will get
so indiscreet in the practice of its politics that you
you will get anything happening. I am sure, Mr.
Chairman, that it would be better if this $600 were
kept unused or it would have been used for a better
purpose if it were spent to improve the conditions at
the Prison. It is now seven years since I have been
fighting single-handedly to get a motorised trans-
port unit for the Prison so as to avoid sick prison-
ers from walking from the Prison at Station Hill
to the General Hospital at Jemmotts Lane,
and from compelling them to walk with an able-
bodied warder. It is a sight which is very humiliat-
ing to everybody except members of the Government
'who are the persons who could remedy it. Even
those prisoners who came down from the roof very
ill had to walk across to the General Hospital in a
weak state of health. They had to walk every inch of
the way. I do think that this $600 would go a very
far way in buying a small jeep or pick-up so that
the sick can be transported to the General Hospital
from that institution. You do not have any synm-
ipathy in things of this sort. You believe you can do
as you like, and then remind the teeming masses of

what happened three hundred years ago and tell
them that you brought them from slavery, and a
lot of nonsense, and hand out to them a slogan
which would get all of them to prance up and put
you back into the House. Were it not for all of that
we would not get this treatment from Government.
I aim saying that not one of the MAinisters of the-
Government has the sympathy which should be
carried by such a person in the important and re-
sponsible position which he is.
4.15 p.m.
Do not let the Minister for Social Services sit
down there and sneer under his arms. I am serious-
about what I am saying, and if the Hon. Minister
got away with murder for some time, it does not
mean he is always going to get away with murder'
all the time, because I challenge him and any othei
of them, we will fight it out to the extreme when-
ever all will be leaving this place and going to the
Electorate for the renewal of our mandate. It is
regrettable and what I am saying is not only in con-
nection with this case at Glendairy Prison, but the
Hon. Minister holds an important position and is a
member of several vital veins in this community,
and the evils that are bound up with him cannot
be removed unless the Hon. Minister of Social Ser-
vices says they are to be removed. I am speaking
about other bodies which the Hon. Minister domi-
nates, and where his uselessness is forced on such
bodies. He sits back disregarding every possible suf-
fering while making the greatest claim for power
and his return to this Chamber, and I believe that
the people in St. Thomas kept him out so long be-
fore they sent him here, that now he is here, he is
taking advantage of them. "They kept me seven
years running and now I get in I don't care how
you get by!" The electorate is too blind but some
of us will teach them.
Mr. GODDARD': Mr. Chairman, I think we
are entitled to hear from the Hon. Minister of So-
cial Services whether the Commission that has been
appointed to investigate the conditions at the Prison
is in favour or has asked that this expert who hap-
pens to be in the territory to be brought here to as-
sist them in their findings. All the criticism that
has been levelled at the Government I think woula
not have taken place had the Minister in introduc-
ing the Resolution given a fuller picture. We do not
wish to anticipate the Commission's Report. We
have an idea of what has happened,--some of us
might be wrong-but we do not wish to put our
finger on any weak spot in the administration there.
I think we are entitled to know whether the Com-
mission has agreed before Government decided that
here is an expert and it would be of use to have him
here; are we to learn later on that there are to
be two independent reports? It may seem ridiculous
my asking these questions and it is because that
information should have been voluntarily given us
If it had been given to us we would not be asking
for it today I think the Minister will realise that
he may have lapsed in not giving the full intro-
duction to the Resolution, and I am asking him now
if he can answer us on that point. How far or
what agreement has been made with the existing
Commission for the expert to come here?
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: The Commis-
sion is still sitting. It has not concluded its labours
and therefore it is not in a position to asl
for any advice from any expert. That is my im-
pression and they could only do it if in making
their Report they could embody it in the Report.
But what happened is this, and it was said here last
week: We got-the information, via the same news-
paper as the hon. mnemers. that this gentleman was
on his way to British Guiana. This is an expert


FEBPBRuARY 225, 1957.

__ __


,on Prison Administration from the United King-
-dom. The gentlemen here on the Commisison are
niot experts, but they are enquiring into the facts;
and when they are finished they will submit a Re-
plort on the facts; but they are not experts on ad-
ministration. The Government, seeing this in the
"Advocate", thought it would be a good idea on
:their own initiative, not the initiative of the mem-
bers of the Commission, to ask British Guiana
whether this gentleman could come to Barbados and
-advise us on Prison Administration. I am not in a
position to say that the administration has broken
down; I am not anticipating the Commission. I am
not in a position to say one way or another; but what
I say is that this gentleman is expert on PrisoL
Administration from the United Kingdom on thu
way to British Guiana on a similar mission. He
came here and somebody has asked: "what can he
dc in five days?" But he is accustomed to dealing
with prisons with three thousand inmates and he
could look around and put his finger on the pulse
of what happened in the prison.
Mr. ALLDER: Mr. Chairman, I do not care
what kind of expert this man is he could be a
genius we do not need him to investigate con
aiotions at our prison with about one hundred or tw.
hundred if so many in a prison here, with Barbadian -
in a small( island like this: it is not necessary; and it
is the incompetence and ignorance of the ad-
ministration of the 'Government which has caused
them to decide that an expert must be brought
This is not a prison in London or Dartmooi
where you have scientists and experts too m
the cells who want to turn over the prison, and
where there are as good experts in the cells as you can
get from the Universities or anywhere else. A couple
of young boys up there get a chance to go on the
roof and therefore you must bring in the whole of
Scotland Yard to tell you how to handle them! Han
die them like human beings; that is all you have
to do. If they produce food in the prisons, let
them eat it. As I have been telling you all along,
if you make them grow carrots, put them in the
rice and let them eat the carrots; do not let the
people from outside buy them at half price. You
do not have to buy them, and if you deprive a man
of his labour that is a means of punishing him.
Work them and let them produce wealth, but let
them use part of the wealth. You do not need a man
from overseas to tell you that. If the man were nol
in the area you would not have wanted him; you
would have managed without him; and if common-
sense was applied that problem could be solved.
What is more, you say you have a ifirst-class Super-
intendent at the prison, a man who has special
training in prison reform, and we have seen his
knowledge manifested in the small improvement ut
there at the prison; and he has just come back from
getting additional knowledge on prison reform.
This man has sufficient knowledge and it only wants
the confidence of the Government now through the
Minister of Social Services to make the Warders
feel that Government is not willing to take advantage
of them if they are offered an opportunity of improve
ing their livelihood.
425 p.m.
That is what it wants. It is said that Mr. Red.
head is a capable man. Since he has been there,
many improvements have taken place and yet some of
the recommendations which he has made, the Hon.
Minister of Social Services has failed to implement.
You put a man in a responsible position and then
when he asks for tools with which to do the job, you
refuse to give him; you prefer to spend any amount
of money to carry out an investigation which is un-

necessary and fail to give the Superintendent what
he feels would cause the Prison to be run on progres-
sive lines.
Mr. E. D. MGTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry
that I was not here when the Hon. Minister made his
opening remarks, but I have made some inquiries.
Judging from what has been said, this Officer is com-
ing here for a period of five days and the cost to the
Government will be approximately $600. I wonder
if the Hon. Minister would tell us something more
about this matter. The Hon. Minister has said that
this gentleman was in British Guiana and they have
requested that he should come to Barbados. At least
we should have been told how much money is for
doing the job, how much is for his passage, and so on.
I may think of how much is for his hotel maintenance
and what his passage from British Guiana would be,
but I would have thought that we would have heard
from the Hon. Minister something more; that would
have softened the shock which honourable members
got by the appointment of this specialist, as the Hon.
Minister terms him, to report on the administration
of Prisons while you have a Commission of Enquiry
going into the matter.
I suppose that human beings-and prisoners are
included in that term-react all over the world to
bad treatment. I say that this would have been a
wonderful opportunity for the Hon. Minister of Social
Services to have thrown some light on the matter
because those of us who were shocked at the sit-down
strike, as they ,call it, realized that something must
have gone wrong; it would have been a good thing
for the Hon. Minister to tell us that rumour has
again been a lying jade. It was stated in the Press
that the administration had broken down, and he
admitted that he had gone through the-
SHon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: On a point
of order. I said that I am not prepared to say that the
administration has broken down; I have to await the
report of the Commission of Enquiry.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Then at least, the Hon.
Minister should take the opportunity of saying
whether 7 or 8 Warders have been dismissed or sus-
pended or not. If you are bringing somebody to
enquire into the administration of the Prison, and
we see that these Warders have been dismissed or
suspended, then something is wrong. The Hon. Min-
ister's point is not that he cannot say what the posi-
tion is, but he will not say what it is. What we think
iq that the Hon. Minister should realise that this is
the first opportunity which the Government has had
to do anything about the sit-down strike at the
Prison, and therefore, this would have been a great
opportunity for him to say what has happened.
If there is anything wrong with the administra-
tion, then let us know; I do not say that you could
attribute direct blame to the Administration for
what has happened, but they should come out and
say something about the matter. The Hon. Minister
must have heard as I have heard that one of the chief
reasons for the disturbance was the serving of bad
food; people have been taking food which has not
been sold out, and which was purely fit for dumping
in the Careenage, and have been taking that food
to give to the prisoners. I repeat that this would
have been a wonderful opportunity for the Hon.
Minister to say that they are not satisfied, if that
is so, and they could give a good reason why they
are bringing this man here. It is not good enough
merely to put in this Addendum; "The Director ol
Prisons Administration in the United Kingdom is
advising the Government of British Guiana on prison
administration. It is considered that the opportunity
should be taken for him to visit Glendairy Prison


-FEBRUARYL 25, 1957.

S ,j,_ .FICAL GAZETTEnrUn 2I, 9 57

so that he can inspect and advise on its administra-
They should have said a little more. In the same
way that I have heard all these things, it is quite easy
for the Hon. Minister to quell these rumours Dy saying
that they are not true or otherwise. It is true that
these Warders have been dismissed or suspended?
We are asked to vote this money, but can the Hon.
Minister say if there is any truth--
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: If this will
satisfy honourable members, I will say that no
Warders have been dismissed; they have been sus-
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Well, they have been
suspended. There is no point in having to pull things
out of the Hon. Minister. The Press is saying these
things, and the hon. members are asked every
day, up and down why the Warders have been sus-
pended; it is time therefore that some reason for the
suspension of these Warders should be given. This
would have been a wonderful opportunity for the
Hon Minister to say here today whether the Admin-
istration of the Prison has broken down. The fact that
the Government has agreed to the suspension of these
6 or 8 Warders shows that the administration has
broken down, and it would have been infinitely better
for the Hon. Minister of Social Services to be able
to say not merely that they need to have a small
Commission of Enquiry to go into the circumstances,
but also to say that it is necessary to have this man.
As soon as the Government agreed to the suspension
of these Warders, then the administration has broken
down. '
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: I wonder if I knew
that the administration had broken down, whether
I would not have said it; that is something for the
Commission of Enquiry to say.
4.35 p.m.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I think the Hon. Minis-
ter has made a mistake in presenting his case. Of
course, the hon. member has his way of presenting
his case; I suppose, if I were presenting it, I will
have my way. You have a Commission of Enquiry
sitting on this matter, and you are now asking for
$600 to bring this Prison expert to look into the;
matter for you. I would think, since you want this
expert to look into the matter that the administration
has broken down; and that seems to me to be the
position of the case. All I am saying is that you
must have the opportunity of presenting this to the
public. I think this would have been a wonderful
opportunity for your presentation of the facts so
that the public would be able to see what is happen
ing, and to see that the Government is doing its best.
To say baldly what is in the Addendum to the Rph
solution. that the Director of Prisons Administration
in the United Kingdom is advising the Government
of British Guiana on prison administration, and it is
oersidered that the opportunity should be taken for
him to visit Glendairv Prison so that he can inspect
-and advise on its administration is not enough.
However, T hope the lon. Minister would pre-
sent his ease. T do not think it is too late for him
to do so. The rumour is that something has gone
wrong. As a matter of fact. T have received letters
from the prisoners. Although it is said that they are
made victims for sitting down. it is common rumour
t'at the principal reason for their sittin& down is
because the persons who were responsible for buying
the foodstuffs of the prison are buying the worst
kind of foodstuffs. I know years ago that the Gov-
ernment had a purveyor. T understand that that is
not beine done now and that we have nersons woing
ot and buying foodstuffs, and those foodstuffs are

very unfit for human consumption. However, Sir, 1
am sorry that the Hon. Minister did not present
his case.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: The hon,
member knows something of the law. The hon. mem-
ber knows that when a case is what we call sub judict
that as little comment as possible is made. The hon
member knows very well that we have appointed a.
Commission to get the facts, and that Commission
was appointed before we knew that this gentlemar
was going to be in the area.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I was saying that as
result of all those rumours which you have heard
and which we have heard that to just present thb
case by saying what is in the Addendum to the
Resolution is not enough. After all, we can think.
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, valuable as has-
been the contribution by the hon. member who has-
just spoken, I think that there is much more to be
said on this matter. How comes it that this gentle-
man is here Obviously, he is here on the advice
and at the request of the Government of this colony.
But how did they know that they could take the-
risk of bringing him here when at the time of issuing
the invitation there was no provision to bring himt
That to me is their most serious crime. They have-
on their own responsibility so slighted the authority
of this House that they could afford to put their
necks out to invite him here to do what they want
without their having the authorisation to pay the
money to have him here; and it is indicative of the
blunting of the susceptibilities of members of this
House in recent years. A matter which is passing all
of us without notice is that the House of Assembly
can be so ignored that Government can take it for
granted that it can ask a man to come here and
undertake to pay him long before they have asked
the House to pay the funds. Of course, knowing
them as we do, they will find the money to pay him
even if ithe House does not give them the money.
They have their ways of expending public money
which does not always come to the knowledge of this
House because if it does come, it would not wji
approval. If they are saying that they asked' him
here well knowing in advance that the House would
grant them the supplies, they are only saying in
other words, that they can rely on their well tried
supporters who are not required to think; and accord-
ing to their own words, they know their party dis-
tipline so well that they know they are only required
to support the Government.
Of all the balderrash that I have heard, I think
the statement from the Hon. Minister of Social
Services must easily rank first. Without explaining
or attempting to explain how he happens to know
of the Director of Prisons in the United Kingdom
he says he read it-and they read it-like anybody else
in the newspapers. I thank them for small mercies
and I say that it is a relief to know that some of
them can read. However, you are asking members of
this House to believe that on no higher basis than
that of chance hearing or chance reading of an article
in the newspaper that a major aspect of Government's
policy has been decided on. Fancy, just by hearing
that a man is in British Guiana or by reading it
in the "Advocate" that a responsible Minister of the
Crown decides that this person can be invited on
hearsay evidence. That is his own admission. He
may not have known beforehand either of the neces-
sity for having the man or indeed of the qualifications
of the man, and he is arguing foolishly as an after
thought to bolster up this matter that the man is
accustomed to looking into the discipline of prisoners
in larger Prisons than Glendairy: ad therefore


1144guARY 25, 1957.

F 1nMJ;aY 1910 Q90MIO1122 =2= ___

-because of the large number of prisoners which comes
Under his notice, he is a ft ana proper person to do
what is to be done here.
4.45 p.m.
I am concerned more than anything else with
the affront which has been levelled at this House,
and it is probably only in this Chamber that a
Minister could get away with what would be in
-other circumstances a most damaging admissiou-
that they had actually invited the man without
the sanction of the Legislature so far as the funds
.are concerned, and they think it a good thiin to
.boast or imply that they have so much control over
this Assembly that they could invite this man here
well knowing in advance that the House of Assembly
-would provide the funds. That is more serious, and
it is something that this House ought to' resent very
.bitterly. With respect secondly to the merits of the
iResolution, if you had listened Mr. Chairman, as
carefully to the Minister as I did and I think
perhaps you did because he was very emphatic, you
would have heard him imply that it was because he
himself does not know what is wrong with the
Prison that he set up the Committee of Enquiry
upon it, and he refused to be drawn into any dis-
cussion as to the conditions of work among the
prison officers or even the treatment of the prisoner
themselves. I wish to say this: that I think he w.
quite right in his refusal to enter into discussion on
these matters. But Mr. Chairman, when he allowed
that Committtee to be set up, he knew before hand
that there were certain things about the Prison that
hc did not know, and therefore he set it up to find
out for himself and for the public the truth about
certain things. Then again on his own admission we
hear that the Committee has not yet reported and
he is asking us not to anticipate its findings by
discussing matters of detail whether factual or 'not,
and while he is doing that, he himself is anticipating
tie Committee by superimposing on it the services
of a gentleman who according to him is an expert
in Prison Administration, without knowing what the
Committee itself will have to say about the adminis-
tration of the prison, without knowing whether the
Committee will find that the administration of tht
prison is in itself the cause of the disturbance.
Without knowing all that, he is undertaking to allow
this gentleman to come into the matter without indi-
cating whether the scope of the gentleman's enquiry
is to be parallel to the enquiry already proceeding
or whether it is to supplement it or indeed to
cancel it out. None of these things he has said: so
thai even, Mr. Chairman, if Members of this House
were prepared to forgive them for the insult which
*hey have given to the House in bringing the man
before the House voted the money, if we are pre-
pared even to forgive them, and him especially for
the superficial and incompetent way in which he
has handled this matter so far as presentation to
the House is concerned, if we are prepared to for-
give all of that, you cannot overlook, Mr. Chairman
the superimposition of this man, who is only an
expert in Prison Administration, on the work of the
Committee already set up to investigate the cause
of the disturbance. If the Hon. Minister for Social
Services had treated the House to his customary
contempt and did not condescend to answer or to
make the few explanations, I am sure he would have
stood in a much better light: because all silence,
Mr. Chairman, is not necessarily insolence; some of
it could have been put down to ignorance; but the
Minister was rash enough to undertake to give a
few explanations in answer both to the hon. senior

member for St. John and the bon. senior member
for the City; and it was these few interventions 1
this debate and the few things head, that he rear
the report like anybody else in the newspaper, that
he does not know what is wrong at the prison but
that a Committee was set up, and this man I
coming to tell you about prison administration-
had he remained silent and not said these things
we would have been inclined to give him the benefit
of the doubt; but he has put his foot into it by the
explanations he has given, because he has made hik
case worse than we actually thought it was: anc
by his intervention he has made us to see that he
has not got the faintest reason to do what he is
asking us to do, but that somebody has told him
to do it and that this is only a brazen attempt ot
their part to wring $600 out of the Public Treasuy
because at the moment they cannot think of any
more absurd reason for having it. I am not going
to support them on it. That should not raise an}
heart-aches because they know my attitude to these
things already; but I am concerned that whenever
they on their own initiative undertake to find out
what is wrong with a Department under their con-
trol, they should not give the impression that they
are not only ignorant but also indifferent; and by
the presentation of this Resolution, by their admis.
sion that the man is here before they knew how
they were going to pay him, and by the affront they
have made to the House in no doing, in my opinion
they have made themselves both ignorant and
4.55 p.m.
Mr. MILLER: I just want to say a simple
word. I must say that I was somewhat touched by
the remarks of the hon. senior member for St. John
when he referred to the conditions existing at the
Prison where the Prisoners have to walk a mile or
more to perform their duties. I sincerely hope that
the Government would make some means of transz
port available to the Prison. I am not at all i.
agreement with all the remarks made to-day as to
the expenditure of this $600 in getting this expert
here; it is time that we have a change or some reform
at the Prison. Having regard to what we know of
the British Prisons to-day, what obtains here can be
regarded as being obsolete.
Judging from the speeches of hon. members, they
have missed the concept aback of getting this expert
here. We want to have the type of reform like that
which obtains in other Countries. I gleaned from the
remarks of the Hon. Minister of Social Services that
the idea of getting this expert here is not any kind
of buttress of the sitting Commission, but that the
idea is to bring about the necessary Prison reform.
Despite the fact that you have a Superintendent of
the Prison who is a particularly good man from
what we have been told, yet we can do with an expert
to make a report on what is yet necessary to be done
at the Prison. I hope that the Hon. Minister of Social
Services in his final word will promise to bring about
the amenities which should be included in the reform
of the Prison.
Mr. BRANCKER: As to this Resolution, Mr.
Chairman, I am not averse to having an official from
the United Kingdom taking a look at our local Prison
administration, because I am sure that it will be in
the interest of the prisoners as well as in the interest
of the Staff, if this official has a look at our Prison
and will apply the same yardstick towards the proper
running of the Prison in this Colony as would apply
equally in Great Britain. Therefore, I do not object
to this particular amount of money which is not as
large as many other amounts which are brought to


FAekVA T i5, 1957


this Chamber to be passed for bringing experts here.
Things have got to such a bad past with these men
being suspended, and with the Commission of Enquiry
still sitting-and I understand that when gentlemen
of the long robe had been asked to appear on behalf
of the Warders, they had the utmost difficulty, until
recently in securing an audience.
When a Commission is sitting, and the Warders
want their side of the case presented, they seek the
assistance of persons who have had some experience
in such matters. I have been told that when gentle-
men like Mr. J. S. B. Dear and Mr. H. A. Williams
went to appear on behalf of the Warders, they were
treated with scant courtesy. If the local Commis-
sion is adopting that attitude, it may be well for
the Director of Prisons in the United Kingdom to
advise on the local Administration.
What has struck me about the local Committee
is that of the three persons, there was no Barbadian
who, apparently, was found worthy of a seat on this
Board. We have the Irish gentleman who is the
Chairman, an English businessman, and we have
our esteemed medico from St. Vincent. Although I
see no objection to such things from the Imperial
standpoint, yet I still wonder whether, on a Com-
mittee like this, at least one Barbadian was not found
suitable enough and competent enough to make a
place on this small Board.
I gather that there was an attempt either to
bluff or to rush us into a hasty decision last week
that it was either then or never; that if we did not
pass the Resolution then, there was no hope of get-
ting this man to make this investigation. However,
in view of the fact that the Committee at present does
not seem to be working as well as one would have
expected it to work, and in view of the fact that
Prison Administration in the United Kingdom is on
a higher and better level than it is in this Colony, it
is as well that we have the opinion of a person from
a big country. Consequently, I am disposed to sup-
port the passing of this Resolution.
The question that this Resolution do now pass
was put and resolved in the affirmative, the Commit
tee dividing as follows:-
Ayes: Hon. G. H. ADAMS, Hon. Dr. H. G. H.
CUMMINS, Hon. M. E. Cox, Hon. C. E. TALMA, Hon.
corT and GODDARD-14.
Noes: Messrs. F. L. WALCoTT, TUDOR and ALL-
The Resolution was passed.

Hon. G. H. ADAMS: The next Resolution,
which appears first on the Order Paper, is a Resolu-
tion for $5,000. This is a simple Resolution in ac-
cordance with the provisions of the Anglican Church
(Partial Suspension) Act. The Cure of The Cathe-
dral was vacant for a period of six months from the
beginning of this year, and the salary has been
lapsing in the Treasury. A temporary appoinnten'L
has been made from the 1st July, and the object of
this Resolution is to pay the sum of $1,620 to the
locum teens of the Cure for the period until the
end of the financial year and to have a sum of money
in hand to meet similar cases which may arise.
I beg to move that this Resolution for the sum
of $5,000 do now pass.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. UMMINS: I beg to second
The question that the Resolution do now pass
was put and resolved in the affirmative without

On motion of Hon. Dr. H. 0. H. CUMMINS,
seconded. by Hon. Mi'. .E.; COX, Mr.. CHAIRMAN
reported progress and asked leave for the Committee
to sit again.
Mr. CHAIRMAN reported to Mr. SPEAKER
who resumed the CHAIR and reported accordingly.


Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: Mr Speaker,
I beg to move that this House do now adjourn for
half an hour.
Hon. M. E. COX: I beg to second that.
Thie question was put and resolved in the affirm-
ative without division and Mr. SPEAKER adjourn-
ed the House accordingly.
5.10 p.m.
On re-assembling
Mr. F. L. WALCOTT: Mr. Speaker, there is no
regular order for dealing with Private Members'
Business and I do not want to be in the same posi-
tion as that in which I found myself last Tuesday
There is a matter of Private Members' Business
standing in my name a Bill and it is my
intention to proceed with that Bill now; because in
the past couple of weeks, the attitude of the Govern-
ment is to proceed with Government Business, and
immediately as it finishes its business, to move the
adjournment of the House. There is nothing to say
that I cannot proceed with Private Members'
Business now if the House so desires and, as I have
said, there is a Bill standing in my name, which is
SOrder No. 1, and it is my intention to proceed with
it now.
Mr. SPEAKER: It is an irregularity for a
Private Member to interrupt Government Business.
As I understand from Mr. Chairman, before the
adjournment, the House was to resume Committee of
Supply to continue with Government Business. We
have not reached the stage where Government Busi-
ness has been disposed of. There is no excuse at all
at this particular moment for a Private Member to
interrupt Government Business especially when a
Committee has been sitting.
The hon. member said that there is no regular
Order for dealing with Private Members' Business.
That is not so. Let the hon. member give some
indication that he intends to proceed with a matter
which stands under his name under Private Members'
Business. Things must be done in order; otherwise
they will get out of hand.
Mr. F. L. WALCOTT: Mr. Speaker, this is a
matter upon which you will have to rule because
there is nothing in the Rules of the House which
says that Private Members' Business must be
proceeded with at any specific time. In view of the
practice over which you have no control, and by
virtue of which the Hon. Leader of this House can
close Government Business and immediately after-
wards move the adjournment of the whole House,
and then you say that the motion for the adjourn-
ment takes precedent over anything, I am bound to
ask you to rule. You do not say that such and such
a time is allowed to Private Members' Business, and
you hear members of the Government talking
boastfully about "exercising your grey matter." I
am saying that no Private Members' Business should
be so subjected to Government Business that you
cannot do it at all, because every item of Private
Members' Business is public business.
If any Private Member puts a matter on the
Order Paper and it means that he can only put it
there, and it cannot be debated, then we must have
some ruling to say what procedure should take


FEBRUARY 25, 1957.

"- -

I have no intention of preventing Government
from proceeding with its business, but what I am
saying is that what is happening in this House (and
I do not mean that it happened on one occasion)
is that the Hon. ITeader of the House after the
completion of Government Business proceeds to
move the adjournment of the whole House and it is
done with the intention of preventing private
members from proceeding with their business..
Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot attribute any motive
to what has happened on the last occasion. I must
remind the hon. member of custom: and the custom
has been and will be, I presume, that private
members will be given opportunity to follow on
with their business after Government Business,
unless the House directs otherwise. There is no
question of any ruling by me.
Give me some indication. Had I any indication
on the last occasion, I would have let the hon.
member proceed with his matter. The hon. member
said that I allowed the Hon. Leader of the House
to move the adjournment of the House. That is
wrong; I have allowed nothing.
The hon. member has risen on two occasions. If
his rising means to indicate that he intends later on
to proceed with the Order standing in his name. I
think the Government has ample notice of his so
On the adjournment, the House was in Com-
mittee of Supply.


Mr. Speaker left the Chair and the House
resumed Committee of Supply, Mr. Smith beint
in the Chair.


Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, this Resolu
tion is for the sum of $2,000 to provide amplifying
equipment for the Legislature. I think I am correct
in saying that on many occasions members of the
House as well as strangers, have reported that the
accoustics of the House were unsatisfactory and it
is difficult for persons to hear what is going on.
We have had various representations made about
the matter, and the Government has agreed to mn-
stall amplifiers and loud speakers in both branches
of the Legislature.
The breakdown of that $2,000 is as follows:-


1 25-watt Amplifier .. .. $195
13 Microphones @ $35 each .. 455
13 Microphone Stands @ $13 .. 169
2 Circular Loudspeakers @ $45 each 90
1 Mixer Unit, approximately .. 100
Installation-Leads and Material .. 200



1 25-watt Amplifier .. $195
3 Suspension Microphones .. 180
1 Circular Loudspeaker .. .. 45
Installation-Leads and Materials .. 200

That brings it approximately to $2,000.



I think, Sir, all hon. members will agree that
there is ana absolute necessity for improving the
acoustics of the House, and with these few remarks

I beg to move that this Resolution for the sum o0
$2,000 do now pass.
6.00 p.m.
lion. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that
Mr. HAYNES: Mr. Chairman, while I appre-
eiate the need for this amplifying apparatus, I uo
not think it is quite going to meet the situation.
Probably members will remember from the discus-
sion on the Five Year Plan and the idea of moving
the Parliamentary Buildings, that I stated there in
no uncertain terms that it would be a pity to leave
these palatial halls, and the answer today is air-
conditioning and amplifying; but Sir, when one
considers the acoustics of this building, as bad as
they are, they are made ten times worse as soon an
the next door building, the Olympic Theatre, starts
operating plus other horns and other sounds com-
ing from the surroundings of this place. No amph-
fying apparatus is going to help that situation. My
idea, Sir, is to ask the Minister in charge to postpone
this Resolution and investigate the cost of air-condi-
tioning. You may not even need it; I am not standing
here as an authority on these matters but am ouiy
talking from broad experience and a knowledge of
how it works in other buildings. I was told a few
days ago by the Manager of Barclays Bank that the
air-conditioning plant there is paying dividends. The
bank's work is finished at a reasonable hour, and the
staff is satisfied, and is not disturbed by all the
noises from all sorts of traffic and the obstructions
which are prevalent in the vicinity; and mind you,
I am not advocating that the Government should go
in for a large concern like that because the plant
at the Bank is not only to air-condition a couple of
rooms, it is for the entire big building; we oaiy
want a unit for two rooms here. There are one or two
other consequences; that is, sometimes the tempera-
ture is too low, but that is only a matter of adj awt-
ing. You can adjust the temperature of a room if
it is air-conditioned to suit normal conditions. I am
suggesting, Sir, that the Hon. Minister postpone this
matter and get further investigations. Perhaps it is
a very costly matter: but a large number of indi-
viduals now are putting in air-conditioning plants in
their bedrooms and I am told, the cost is $500 or
$600. This Chamber is not bigger than five or six
bedrooms; so I am asking him, Sir, if he could see
to that, because he would really be doing a service
to the colony by having the Chambers livable, and
not only livable but also comfortable to those mem
bers who are returned by the people of the island.
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, it is a bit dis-
appointing when in a matter like this the honour-
able member who has just sat down, though one
gives him credit for his sincerity, misses the whole
point at issue. You cannot, Mr. Chairman, measure
the relative merits of air-conditioning as against
that of installing loud-speaking equipment, when
what is to be known in the first place is this: Who
has considered that this House or that this Chamber
should have loudspeaking equipment? This is a
matter which concerns the House: and in the first
place, because it concerns the House, it does not
have any right being in charge of the Minister; it
is not a Government measure. The merits of it are
not in dispute at the moment but the point is this:
if it seems good to the House to make alterations to
this Chamber, alterations will be made; but Mr.
Speaker ought to direct some honourable member,
not necessarily the Minister, to take charge of the
particular matter. This matter is being treated as
if it were an ordinary routine expenditure, and I
think I should like to know-I may be ignorant-
how it is that the House has reached the decision
to instal amplifying equipment. Now I know that

FEBRUARY 25, 1957

0)? WL&L Q U FwAualY 26, 1957

it can be said that almost everybody knows how
difficult it is to get voices to carry in this room, and
how the obstruction from the traffic outside makes it
difficult for honourable members to hear each other
or even themselves. All that is known. But the
point is this, Mr. Chairman, if it is thought necessary
so to amplify voices of honourable members when
speaking, why at the same time is it necessary to
make what I think is a series of unnecessary restric-
tions and unnecessary regulations governing the
entry of persons into these precincts when this Hon.
Chamber is in session
6.10 p.m.
For the purpose of installing loud-speaking
'equipment is not so much that we should be able to
hear each other-because we do that after a fashion
-but in order that our voices can be carried above
the din and roar of the traffic outside, and of
course, some of the distraction which some hon.
members of the Government put up from time to
time. Later on, I shall have something to say on
the merits of the Resolution itself, but it does
appear to be a breach of the privileges of this
House, that some people can take it upon themselves
to decide to instal amplifying equipment, not only
in here, but in the Other Place. Everybody knows
that scarcely more than 9 or 10 people attend meet
ings of the Other Place at any time; everybody
knows that there is a general rule that visitors are
not encouraged in that Chamber because the num-
ber of seats available for persons who are not mem-
bers of that Chamber are not more than 3 or
possibly 4. Therefore, there has never been any
great trouble with people in the Other Place except
on such rare occasions when members of this hon.
Chamber are summoned there to meet His Excel-
lency the Governor along with the members of the
Other Place.
Those occasions are very few and rare. We have
never heard it said on any of those occasions, that
people find it difficult to hear the proceedings or
to follow the ceremonies. Therefore I fail to see
how this decision could have been arrived at; this
is not necessarily the best decision. At this point,
I meet the hon. junior member for St. Andrew on
,common ground, because the Hon. Minister could
have at least told us why this particular form of
improvement is better than another form of im-
provement. It is possible to hold the opinion that
if you could get this Chamber properly ventilated
with all the windows closed, and instal the cooling
system, hon. members might be able to hear each
other better. We should have been told about the
cost of this proposal in relation to other things. We
have to be told how it is that, this House not having
requested the loud-speaking system, the Govern-
ment could take it upon themselves to advise or
provide hon. members with this system. I think it
Is a breach of the privileges of this House, and I
do not think that is a matter which is a Government
matter, properly speaking.
As I said before, if the House had decided either
informally or by distinct motion to make alterations
in this Chamber, the House would have the means
of indicating its desire to Mr. Speaker, and Mr.
Speaker would take the proper steps to have the
thing done. Consequently, when the Resolution
came before the House for providing the money to
make the alterations, the House could be told in
an official and formal way. tFiZt Mr. Speaker is
directing somebody to take charge of the particular
matter. These things must be properly set up; any-
thing which has to do with this House-whether it
is in the selection of its servants or in the alteration
of the furniture-any such matter should be ex.
elusivelv the privilege of the House, and Mr. Sneaker
should have the directing influence in it. I do not

like the idea of the Hon. Minister introducing this.
measure and treating it as a routine Government mat-
ter, which it is not. It is even a matter in connection-
with which the claims or ties of party should not bind
hon. members, because by its very nature it cannot
be that kind of privilege.
It should be said from the outset that hon. mem-
bers should be free to speak their minds on the meas-
ure without regard to party ailiations or party
allegiance, because it is a matter which concerns the
House, and it should be dealt with in that light and
on that basis. Later on, when the debate is developed
I shall say something about loud-speaking equipment
itself, but at this point, I want to emphasise that
something irregular is taking place. I would like-
hon. members to turn their attention to this matter,.
and see whether it is not possiBle that we might be
doing something which might be aone differently.
Mr. GODDARD: Mr. Chairman, from time im-
memorial hon. members have oeen questioning what
improvements could be made to this Chamber in vari-
cus ways. At one time we sat at the far end of this
Chamber, and we thought that by moving to this
end of the Chamber, the acoustics would lend them-
selves to better hearing. I am not any expert; I do.
not pretend to be one; but I think that we should be
given the fullest opportunity and the fullest details,
whether they are from experts in the field of acous-
tics, in the field of amplification or even in the field
of air-conditioning, before we agree to make this step.
I would have thought that this procedure would have
started from Mr. Speaker, and probably the Debates
Committee or some working Committee from both
sides of this House, because this is not a party matter;
it is purely an internal matter, and we would like to
see steps taken for the improvement of this Chamber.
It is not enough to have visitors say that they
come in here and they cannot hear what is going on,
If they are invited here, by all means, we want them
to hear what is taking place; bliit we also want to
lonow that we will be providing the correct methods
whereby that improvement would be made. I do not
know, if we have 24 or 30 amplifiers around this
table, how they would work; I think that this is a
matter which could better be dealt with by a small
Committee, rather than how we are dealing with it
now. I would like to enquire how many speakers ara
there going to be; whatever the position is, I think
that hon. members should be given the opportunity
of being given fuller details as to what we are being
committed to today. I go further; I would like to
enquire from the Hon. Minister who introduced this
Resolution whether the members of the Other Place
have accepted the proposal that amplification be used
in that Chamber.
6.20 p.m.
Have they approached them? Have they told
them anything about it? Or is it that they are going
to them and saying: "We are going to put it in
there." If that is so, it is an intrusion. I would not
like to think that somebody outside has told them to
do it, because it would be so embarrassing. It would
be as somebody trying to impose on us something
which we know nothing about. I would like to ask
the Hon. Minister of Communications to rise at this
stage and give us some firm detail on those lines-
before we proceed to discuss this thing further.
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I
should have reminded the Hon. Leader of the Oppo-
sition that sometime in the 1948 to 1951 Session, a
Committee sat and considered the provision of equip.
ment for amplification of this House; and at that
time it was recommended, if I remember correctly,
(and honourable members will remember that the
Government Electrical Inspector, Hr. Hooper, in-
stalled an electrical speaker and tried out experi-

F~8B~PaaaY a~ 1967



Wants at that time and made recommendations) that
it would cost us something like 2,406 for the House
alone. The result was that the Government did not
proceed to carry out installations then. However,
ir, recently members of the Other Place have in-
formed the Government it is difficult for them to
hear in their Chamber and they have appealed to
the Government for an amplifier and microphones.
Because of this, the question of amplifying the
House was brought to the fore, again, and Govern-
Ament decided to come down for the money for the
installation. That is the position.
The Government Electrical Inspeotor did all the
inspections and the various tests and then recom.
mended that we should install these microphones and
amplifiers. It is proposed to have suspension mikes
in the other Chamber inasmuch as the table there
is almost square, but he has told us that he cannot
work that arrangement satisfactorily in this Cham-
ber; therefore, we would have to use microphones
in the other Chamber inasmuch as the table there
between every two members and one for the Speaker.
That should enable the members of this House and
the gallery to hear what is going on and should give
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I am
not quite satisfied with the explanation at all. I
have listened carefully to the Hon. Minister and
if I understand him correctly he said thirteen mi-
crophones; but he told the Leader of the Opposition
thirteen speakers.
Hon. M. E. COX: No, no! There would be two
speakers which, I presume, will be installed on the
roof of the building and there will be thirteen mi.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I take it that there will
he one amplifier, thirteen microphones and two
speakers which will be installed in this Chamber.
Now, my own idea about it is if you are going t.
have some system of amplification, what you propose
to do is nonsense.
Bear in mind that in your amplification you are
;eing~e to amplify noise from outside this Chamber
mt well. We debate in a two-by-four room: and if
you cannot make people in the room hear you, it is
time for you to go home. That is my own personal
feelings. But if the feeling, of the Committee is that
.ou should have some system of amplification, then
: think the honourable member who is most competent
for contradicting me is the honourable junior member
for St. George. There is a system of conealled am.
plifeation which is the correct system for this room.
I3n big countries where there is some system of am-
plification they do not have anything hanging. If
you want to do it, and you want to improve the acous.
tics of this Chamber because of the type of people
who speak, then do it the correct way. As I have
said, there is a system in which you can have con-
cealed amplification, and there is no point in having
what the Hon. Minister spoke about. If you are
going to have amplification, in my opinion you
should have it in the right way. What the honour.
able member is proposing to have in here is what
every honourable member who is in politics has.
That is not what you want in here. What you really
are proposing to have in here is a public address
system. What you want is a system which is so
modernised that when the honourable lady mem-
ber speaks or when the honourable junior member
for St. Peter speaks it can be so toned that you can
hear both equally in the same manner. [Mr. F. L.
WAL COTT: I would not be in here too long; so
you need not think of me.]
Now, Mr. Chairman, you know there is a time
and place for saying certain things, but I cannot
resist the temptation for saying what I am going to

Snow. Last week we reeved some tate t by
Ii Honour the Speaker and I do t'nk t '4 ht
statement has been really misunderstood ,te
general public because the feeling among he pblic
is that there is an attempt to prevent popl from
coming to the Hoguse and listening to the debates. I
would say I am not one who subscribes to any bad
behaviour in the House, buc you will agree with me
that there were times when the party to which I have
the honour to belong saw strangers from the gallery
expressing a cheer when members of the Govern-
ment got up to speak. That is democracy. You must
give people that opportunity of expreping openly
their feelings although it is absolutely wrong for
people to express their appreciation that way in this
Chamber. It has been reported to me that at the
bottom of the stairs leading to this Chamber there is
a policeman preventing people from entering this
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is
straying from the Resolution.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I am talking of tEo
Bcoustics of this Chamber. With the greatest respect
to Your Honour, when the Hon. Minister of Com-
aunications said that it had been represented to them
and they have brought the matter here, I have not
made that representation; therefore the Hon. Min-
ister is talking of representation made by strangers
in the gallery. I hope you will' grant me that privi-
lege of making reference to them.
t.30 p.m.
I do not see how we can reconcile that we are
trying to put in this amplifying apparatus and sull
in the same breath say that persons cannot enter
without getting a recommendation from the Arch-
angel Gabriel. To me it is unnecessary and after
with the Premier and the Leader of the House, while
denying the Leader of the Opposition the right to
discuss it with them, I personally realise that is
going too far. I am prepared to back the authority
of the Speaker and you, Sir, in upholding the dignity
of this House, but I am not prepared to give away
my right as a member of this House at any time.
I am letting it be known now that as far as I sm
concerned. Party or no Party, I am elected here: and
any Tuesday, I will fill all the seats in this Hou.Ce,
and I don't care if the Premier likes) it or the Leader
of the House or the Speaker do not-
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am speaking to the hon.
senior member for the City. I am asking you to re
gard the authority of the Chair, and when I knock
the gavel you must listen to what the Chair has te
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY I do so, but, what t
wanted .....
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Hon members are getting
in the habit when I knock the gavel to try and
drown the noise of the gavel.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I shall never dQ that.
Sir, but just now you knocked the gavel; when I
stopped to listen you were speaking to somebody
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member is break-
ing the Rules.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: That is why I....
Mr. CHAIRMAN: You must listen to the
Chair. The gavel is not used for foolishness.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I agree it is not always
used for foolishness; when you use it, you do not
use it for foolishness.
Mr.. CHAIRMAN: If I do not always use it
for foolishness, there is only one other, person that
uses it and that is the Speaker.

P3=VAJW WL1RF -1957

QFlillfib~ IjlB~G~BII'P1


Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Why'do you interpret
that way? You are not the only person in the Chair.
As far as I am concerned in a matter of this
sort, it strikes me in dealing with this amplification
that eight years ago a Committee sat on this and
the question was discussed, after which there was a
change around of the House so that Reporters wer
in a better position and His Honour the Speaker
would be facing and seeing everybody coming into
the gallery, and so on. That was eight years ago. You,
Mr. Chairman, were not a member of the party in
power nor Chairman at the time, so how would you
feel for this Resolution to come down here to-day say-
mng that "it is considered that amplifying equipment
should be provided in both Chambers" and so on?
The answer was given by the Minister; the Other
Place had asked for it, the Other Place had repre
sented to the Government that they cannot hear each
other when speaking. They are gentlemen advanced
in age and many of them have not got the voices
we have in here (although it is smaller, I believe;,
and they have represented to the Government that
they cannot hear each other when speaking; but th .t
is because of the noise from outside. We cannot
amplify the noise from outside to reduce it; if you
amplify it at all you are going to make it worse.
There are a lot of members here who were not h
here eight years ago when a Committee sat on tlus,
and since then there has been a change-around '
the House. Do you think it is fair to hon. members
of this House even in dealing with something which
is to do with, the privilege of this House not to con-
sult hon. members and say let us have a small Com-
mittee to see what is best? Do you know there are
a lot of people who would not like to have the Cham
ber amplified? It tends to harness people's nerves,
and the Hon. Minister of Health would know this
from experience that some of these things feed back
so that they jar. There is no need in a small ro-om
like this to have 13 microphones. Of course, y u
can have thirteen microphones but what would be
the position in here? Let the engineer be any "n
gineer at all; there is a system by which you can do
it which will cost more money; but this is a waste
of money. I do not think it is fair to hon. mem-
bers to say eight years ago you investigated this
matter and felt something should be done, and now
today members, who were not here eight years ago,
were not consulted or asked to give any suggestions.
That is like the third paragraph in the statement the
Hon. Speaker made. You consulted the Premier and
the Leader of the House, but the others can take the
road down to the careenage as far as you are c-'n-
cerned. [A VOICE: And the Commissioner of Police]
Yes, and the Commissioner of Police. Do you consult
the Commissioner of Police when you are trying t.,
get a vote? Why can't they ask the Commissioner
(,f Police.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member must
keep to thte Resolltion.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I am keeping to the
Resolution. You are going to put up loudspeakers
and install microphones and ask the people to stay,
in the yard and hear what is being said. As I said
just now, the Police and about two dozen people had
a row downstairs because they were not allowed to
come up. It is true they have no right cheering
in here; they must not show by any physical expres-
sion their agreement with either side, but we cannot
be so drastic. I remember an instance when you had to
ask J. T. C. Ramsay to leave this Chamber, and what
happened? There was a tremendous row. Now you
are going to perpetuate the same thing here. What


I mostly strongly object to is to see the Speaker, who
must be impartial and who, we assume, is impartial,
saying in the statement that he consulted the Leader
of tne House and the Premier of the same Party,
and the Commissioner of Police; all the others can
go away! How does that sound? Then you come in
here to day and say it has been represented to Gov.
ernment. Une would not be surprised if representa-
tion was made to the Government by a front bench
gentleman who had reached the stage of advanced
age. But by whom has it been represented ? It is not
fair to the Opposition of this Government. If the
position had been in the reverse and this had been
done, they would have consulted them in this mat-
ter. I do not know how the other members look at it,
but I am not going to vote for it. I do not see the
necessity for it. But I will tell you what I would
like. A tape recorder! Let us have a tape recorder
[A VOICE: It would not work!] It would not work.
Let us have the records so that any honourable
member would not be able to say "I did not say
thus' A system of amplification must be approach-
ed in a proper way. You must have a Committee to
meet and make a decision, and the honourable
junior member for St. George could very well sit on
that Committee and advise Government. He is not an
engineerr -but he has read sufficient about the matter
to give some advice. There is a system in big count.
tries and in big cathedrals by which they are con-
cealed, but what would you do with thirteen micro-
phones around here? Look at the size of this place.
If you put in microphones and the 'honourable lady
member for St. Andrew was speaking, although con-
cealed Pou still would be able to hear.
6.40 p.m.
What would you do with them? Would any hon.
member seriously sit down and say that he would
vote for placing these microphones in this room?
That is nonsense. I suggest to hon. members that they
should not vote for any such thing. If you want a
system of amplification in here, let the Government
appoint a Committee to go into the matter. It ia a
matter as to whether this House would like this thing
to be done or not; this is just like saying that the
Government has decided to remove these chairs, and
that hon. members should sit on benches. Do you
mean to say that we should have absolutely no say in
such a matter q Are you just saying that this matter
has been represented to you? If it has been repre-
sented to you, then let us have a Committee to go
into the matter and see if this is really necessary.
The people of this country are beginning to feel
that while a Government with Socialist views has
gone into power, they have become so drunk with
power, that they want to be twii gods. In other
words, people are beginning to feel that you are
overthrowing everything that they believed you have
done in the public good. I counsel hon. members not
to vote for this Re solution; if you vote for this Reso-
lution, the next thing you will hear is that the Gov-
ernment is saying that these chairs on which we are
now sitting are to be removed and we have to sit on
benches, and we would not have any say in the matter.
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, I was extremely
interested in the observations which were made by
the hon. junior member for St. Lucy and the fulmin-
ation of the hon. senior member for the City in
respect of having 13 microphones in this Chamber,
who have been here for very many years, for the bene-
fit of the contributions of lackadaisical politicians
who feel it necessary to have themselves encircled by
these things. The debates of this Chamber. until the
advent of persons of the ilk of the hon. member who
has introduced this Resolution, were conducted with
a fair degree of propriety and decorum. I remember

F.RuARY 2:5- 1957 O

that in 1934, I was turned out of this Chamber be-
cause I wore short pants, but I was only 13 years
Gld at that time. Perhaps children and fools were not
allowed to come into this Chamber. In those days, the
bon. senior member for St. Michael was conspicuously
absent; he was not interested then, but it would have
been noticed that hon. members spoke with clarity
in those days, and were not distracted by the asides
which come from Government benches, the asides and
rude interruptions to which we are subjected from
Tuesday to Tuesday. and which assault Your
Honour's ears. I would like to inform the honour-
able senior member for St. Michael that the question
of the acoustics of this Chamber has nothing to do
with the matter of how many microphones you have.
The acoustics of a building, subject to anything
that my omniscient colleague may have to say on the
subject, are entirely independent of the equipment
which you may install within the building. Tie
Matter of the acoustics of a building, within my
limited knowledge, is something which can be im-
proved perhaps by extensive alterations to the
building itself. Any alterations to the structure of
the honourable senior member for St. Michael, I
presume, would end in his downfall. I am not trying
to be rude to the honourable member or to hurt his
feelings; I am just using what ideas come to my mind.
From 1934. I have been coming into this Cham-
ber and I have been able to hear speeches of hon-
ourable members. If due to the increase in the volume
of external traffic, the increase in the volume of the
internal conversations which go on during most of
a debate, and the increase in the number of people
who come into this Chamber, sound is either absorbed
or drowned or saturated, it is time that we begin to
think of some alterations to the structure of thisb
building along the lines suggested by the honourable
junior member for St. Andrew. When we come to
the point of having 1 microphone or 13 microphones,
it is a matter of supreme indifference to me. I can
see my colleague sharpening his pencil and per-
haps instructing the honourable senior member for
St. Michael that it would not be necessary to have
all 13 microphones switched on at one and the same
P.50 p.m:
That is not the point. If you are going to put in
elaborate equipment of that nature, it would stand
to reason that you must have someone with that tech-
nical knowledge and experience to supervise the
equipment so as to make sure that it does not blow up,
or blow out; or alternatively depending on the nature
of the layout of the equipment that the right voices
are heard at the right time.
This Resolution is the thin edge of the wedge
and I am going to oppose it on these grounds. I do not
know by whom were the recommendations made but
I think that it is an insult to this House that the re-
commendations were made by someone outside of the
House when they did not hear what was said. I know
it is difficult for strangers to hear what is going on
in this Chamber but that is due to a multiplicity
of causes some of which I have spoken of before.
Mr. Chairman, I propose to go through thei
Annual Estimates because I want to draw to your
attention some anomalies on the question of public
expenditure. Public expenditure can only be justified
either on the grounds of pure necessity or on the.
basis of social and economic alternatives. I do know
that $15 million or 15 million does not seem a lot
of money to the people on the other side of this
House, but $15 million is the revenue of this colony;
therefore any Government in power, is faced with
the question of deciding the priority and the scale

of social preferences and social alternatives judged
by the categorical preference in the social setup.
We have an initial expenditure of $2,000 for the
installation of amplifying equipment in this Cham-
ber. You give to the children of the Goodwill League
according to this year's Estimates $1,200. You give
to the Young Men's Christian Association $1,940.
You give the Salvation Army $720 and to the Bar-
bados Association in aid of the Blind, Deaf and
Dumb $2,250.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member is straying
from the Resolution.
,Mr. BARROW: I am not straying.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The Resolution is asking for
$2,000 for amplifying equipment.
Mr. BARROW: I am showing to you the social
alternatives and the amount of money spent on those
MIr. CHAIRMAN: That has nothing to do with
amplifying equipment at all. This Resolution is for
the expenditure of $2,000 and according to the
Addendum of the Resolution it is considered that
amplifying equipment should be provided in both
Chambers of the Legislature. I am not going to
entertain what the hon. member was speaking on
at all. It looks like the Estimates from which he is
Mr. BARROW: It is a copy of the Estimates
which I have in hand. I told you that I was going
to quote from it. I was dealing with the way in
which money was spent and I was showing the
reason why I was going to vote against this Reso-
lution. I feel strongly on this matter. I did not
know that you took your directions from the hon.
senior member for St. Michael.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I have not taken my direc-
tions from any person. This Resolution is for the
sum of $2,000 for amplifying equipment.
Mr. BARROW: I must say: "this Resolution is
for $2,000. I am the senior member for St. George:
Glory Hallelujah!" and then sit down! That is
what I have to say on it. I must praise God; and
because I see the big brothers watching me talk
about Gideon or something in St. Peter. What is
your standard of debate?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: If the hon. member goes on
like that I am going to rule him out of order.
Mr. BARROW: I am asking you for guidance.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: You cannot stay up and talk
what you like.
Mr. BARROW: What must I do? I was show-
ing you how the money in this year's Estimates is
being spent.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am asking you to keep, to
the Resolution.
Mr. BARROW: I am justified in quoting the
Estimates under "Subsidies and Grants." As I have
said, the Association for the Blind, Deaf and Dumb
gets $2,250 as a grant, apart from the Young Men's
Christian Association which gets a grant of $1,940.
The $2,000 which is proposed in this Resolution to
be spent in amplifying equipment represents in my
scale of preference two aided self-help houses and
if those Conservative planters could have done with-
out microphones in here my lungs are healthy
enough to do without them. As long as they are
people living in the appalling slum conditions in
this colony as they are living, as long as they are
people without houses, we in this House of Assembly
should be the last persons to be spending money
on unnecessary frivolities and on ourselves. All that
we are doing is showing off. Because you probably
have been to Paris and you saw some place with
microphones installed for 7,000 people, must we


FEBRUARY 25 1957


have it too? Because you went to some hig convention
hall and you saw it laid out for television and you
saw something like small condensed tins, do you
mean to say that you want something like that to
show how important you are? The next thing that
the Minister would want is a Rolls Royce motor-
ear. This is not one of those places. If you had put
every man in St. Michael who wanted a house in a
house, if the school children were getting a hot mid-
day meal, if the poor babies were getting milk and
all those things were done, then you could justify
expenditure on the Ministerial Buildings and micro-
phones not only in this Chamber but in the Other
Mr. Chairman, have we gone out of our senses?
A Resolution of this nature can only display a lack
of social orientation on the part of this Government.
We speak with difficulty in this Chamber, it is true,
but speaking with difficulty is not as bad a thing
as one going a whole day without a meal in one's
stomach: and there are too many people in Barbados
in that position for me to support a Resolution of
this nature.
Mr. VAUGHAN: Mr. Chairman, I am not
influenced by the purely erroneous comparison of
this amount for amplifying equipment and other
amounts for grants to institutions because the other
amounts quoted by the hon. senior member for St.
George are only annual amounts: therefore the com-
parison is not at all valid; but I am not at all
satisfied that we have had any essential reason to
spend $2,000 on something that may prove entirely
unsatisfactory in this House. If the hearing in this
Chamber were as difficult as alleged, this Chamber
would not be so filled every Tuesday and their
general complaint would be that since they cannot
hear well in the House of Assembly they are not
going there. I am not drawing any red herring
across the trail. It seems to me that even if we have
to spend more than $2,000 on this equipment, we
can still talk of starving people. I am not at all
satisfied of this expenditure under the circumstances.
7.00 p.m.
Mr. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to
agree with the hon. member, but it is so strange
that he has made a speech like that. IHowever, in
has been for years a normal democratic process, and
since I have been in this Chamber, over five yeai s
ago, we have been repeatedly asked by the Preus
and the people who use the gallery for a means of
better hearing, and that also applies to members of
Parliament. The Minister in his remarks about the
breakdown says there will be thirteen microphones
provided. What he is thinking of is one for every
two members and one for the Speaker; but there are
occasions when the Clerk of the House is expected
to address the Chamber. But this $2,000 would not
be the entire cost of the equipment, because certaitrly
there should be a man in charge of the equipment
to control it. You are bound to have a control
panel or a board to switch the microphones from
speaker to speaker; that is bound to be a result
But any remarks about the acoustics and improving
the acoustics of the Chamber is not solved by ampli-
fiers. The amplifier is for the reproduction, that
is, to reproduce the voices of the various speakers,
and the type you can get would determine the
quality of the reproduction you expect to get.
But on the question of acoustics, you either
have or you are without acoustics, dependent on
the particular type of building. What T would rather
prefer would cost ten times as much money:that is
a structural change that would bring a better repro-

duction of voices. In a theatre, it would be en
sidered "infra dignitatem" to attempt to put micro-
phones, but I would admit it would involve a lot
of structural changes and a considerable sum to
bring this about. The amplifying system as referred
to in this Resolution is in itself a means of substi
tute in that it can never improve the acoustics m
the building. You either have acoustics or you don'll
This is a cheap substitute for what we should have,
but we have had all reasons why we should vote
against this money. I do not agree with the tech
nical information as referred to by the Ministei
in that you should have two loudspeakers. Usually on
occasions like that where you are using the building
as an auditorium, you use several -mall speakers
to bring the volume just above that of the natural
voice and make it comfortable. If you plan to us,
two loudspeakers, you are going to have some
difficulty because the travel of sound is slower than
air and you will have the sound echoing down thp
Chamber. In an auditorium where you have several
small speakers instead of two large ones, if y u
bring the speakers up and above the volume, you
must impair the quality of the voice. I am sorr,
and I hope the Hon. Minister will talk it over with
the Government Electrical Inspector, and see if
arrangementss can be made to use several small
speakers. The Premier would be in a better position
to tell you that it is customary to use headphones
instead, I believe at some conferences. The ide.
here again is a natural democratic process where
you had several applications from the Press and
the Gallery that it is difficult to hear, and they
went about and provided means for making ta6
conditions better; but it does not improve the quality
and all that goes with it. By using large speakers
you must at least have a control man at the panel
to control the switch arrangements. As to those few
remarks made by the Minister I am of the opinion
that he was wrong to say that amplification was
to improve the acoustics of the place. That nevdr
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, in view of tne
remarks made by members, I am going to ask leave
to postpone this for further consideration with a
view to asking the House to agree to the appoint-
ment of a Select Committee to go into the matter
more thoroughly, although I must assure the Com-
mittee that the Government Electrical Inspector has
gone into this matter very thoroughly and he has
also produced a brochure demonstrating the tyj:
of speaker that he intends using. It is not th,
ordinary type of speaker which we normally use,
it is a completely different type. However, I am
asking leave to postpone the matter for further
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, my attitrd,
of the matter is this, that in this House it is exceed-
ingly difficult sometimes to hear hon. members a.-O
I believe. .....
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member has askeC
leave to postpone the matter. Are you agains-
leave being granted.
Mr. CRAWFORD: At this stage, yes! Because
I feel this way about it.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: If you are objecting to
leave being granted, you should allow me to put
the question.
Mr. CRAWFORD: But I am entitled to say wh,
I object, and I am saying every member in this
House at sometime or other has complained about
the manner in which he cannot hear other speakers
Secondly, Sir, we are all opposed or annoyed ':y

FEBBau~nP 25, 1957i



the manner in which many of our speeches iare
reported by the Reporters and I have got to the
point where I do not read the Official Gazette at all.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member seems to
be losing his temper.
Mr. CRAWFORD: I am saying, Sir, that oi
the Reporters who take speeches in this Chamber,
some of them are capable, some of them are not,
and invariably, I suppose they would offer tihe
excuse that they cannot hear what is being said; bu-
I cannot read the Gazette anymore. The stupidnca'
everybody appears to be saying in here astonishr.s
me: and if for no other reason than to get an
accurate debate, we should provide some means of
amplification and I would agree with it. What
happens i- this: Government is so stupid in its
approach to almost any matter that anything any-
body cmnies and pushes down their throats they
have to swallow. What do you need thirteen tab'e
microphones in here for? We need three suspended
from the ceiling; one facing this direction, one n
t*.e centre and the other one facing the othel
direction; or if you want table model microphones,
six are quite enough. T am opposed to spending two
thousand dollars, but T am not opposed to providii:,
some sort of amplification equipment in the Chamber.
T, can be done at a cheaper cost than two thousand
dollars, and in fairness to ourselves and to the
reporterss and the public who come here-because
they come for any other reason -- T think it is
advisable to provide some sort of amplification in
order. Sir. to assist the acoustics in the building
If the Government feels like postponing the Reso-
lution to appoint a. Committee to present a more
reasonable and satisfactory Resolution to the House
T will vote for it.
7.10 p.m.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Minister of
Communications has asked leave to postpone the
further consideration of this Resolution. [After a
pausee. There being no objection, the Hon. Minister
is granted leave to postpone the further considera-
tion of this Resolution.

Public Works Dept.

Hon. M. E. COX: The next Resolution, Mr.
Chairman, is one for the sum of $43,000. As hon-
ourable members will see, this Resolution is for
the purpose of completing certain works. They will
see from the Addendum to this Resolution that with
regard to the new Highways and Transport Offices,
Workshops, Traffic Inspectorate, Stores and Yards,
and in respect of the new Offices for Registrar,
Public Trustee, Writ Servers, Petty Debt Clerks,
Assistant Court of Appeal Clerks, two new Courts
of Appeal and one new Supreme Court, and the
rehabilitation of the Town Hall, the total estimated
expenditure for these works was $530,000. The
Addendum also points out that the increase in this
expenditure is due to a variety of reasons as
follows :--

(a) The original layout costs of the
office blocks at the Pine were based
on a flat site, but the site finally
selected was on sloping ground,
and it therefore needed a large
amount of filling for the yard.
yard spaces and the construction
of retaining walls. The additional
cost is .. .. .. $13,000

(b) The mechanical workshop at the
Pine was to be a light steel framed
building, but owing to the delay
in steel delivery the building was
constructed of heavier reinforced
concrete. In addition, there was an
increase in the cost of two sets of
20ft. high by 20ft. wide sliding
doors, and it was found necessary
to provide three sunken working
and inspection pits, an additional
steel framed building for the
mechanical hoist, and an extra
amount of filling owing to the
nature of the site. Provision for
these was not included in the
original estimate, and the addi-
tibnal cost is
(c) The provision of a larger yard and
store room for the Public Works
Department was made necessary
by the arrival of various stores
including hurricane relief material
and the additional cost is
(d) At the new Courts extra expendi-
ture was incurred in preparing the
foundations of the vault building
where soft ground was found at a
depth of 12ft., and a large cavity
had to be bridged in preparing the
foundations of the Writ Servers'
Office. The additional cost is ..
(e) At the Government Headquarters
an outside building has to be con-
structed for use as a gardener's
room, and to house certain files
and records which could not be
stored in the main building. The
estimated cost is


$ 5,000

$ 5,000

,$ 2.500

That makes a total of $43,000. I beg to move
that this Resolution do now pass.
Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
Mr. ALLDER: Mr. Chairman, I am wonder-
ing whether, with all these improvements and
extensions to Government Offices, the Government
would consider the possibility of removing the Old
Age Pension Office from that dangerous point in
White Park Road where it is now situated. Many
of these old people have to go there to collect their
pensions, and we know what the traffic is like in
that area. For some time now, that Office has been
shifted from street to street, and the improvements
to the Office have been unsuitable. It is time that,
with the extension of these Government Offices, the
Old Age Pension Department should be removed
to a safer place where the lives of these Old Age
Pensioners will not remain in jeopardy as they are
in now. I am hoping that. the Hon. Minister of
Works will make a statement as to the provision
of a new and safe Office for this Old Age Pension
Mr. GODDARD: I should like to say that
with any estimate which runs in the vicinity of
half million dollars, there is liable to b'e an error
either in one way or in the other. The Addendum
to this Resolution points out quite clearly that there
has been an underestimate with regard to these
works. I merely rose to say or point out to the
Government that if Officers of the Department
responsible for drawing up estimates come back to
this House with reasonable grounds for increases
we will readily grant them, but let it be clearly
understood that we also expect to have honest
estimates in the first instance. In the past there
have been times when this House was diffident abiut

FEBRUARY 25 1957



granting supplementary amounts for Capital Works,
because the Officer or Draughtsman who prepared
the estimates always presented estimates which
were rather high, the reason being that he did not
want to come back to the House with increases. I
say: let us have correct estimates in the first in-
stance, always having the assurance that if the
Officer comes back for additional amounts on
reasonable grounds, the money will be provided.
I just want to point out to the Department
and the Officer concerned that if the House must
treat him with respect, he must come forward with
correct estimates in the first place.
Mr. CRAWFORD: What worries me, Mr.
Chairman, is the extravagantly high cost of these
additions. In Item (a) they have to provide some
more filling for yard spaces. Originally they were
building office blocks at the Pine based on a flat
site; after they had selected the site, they had to
fill in that space and erect a retaining wall in front.
That work costs $13,000. I do not know what is
the area of the building of these office blocks at the
Pine, but the amount of $13,000 for doing this work
is high in anybody's money. The reason for my
saying that is that you have not got to buy the
stuff for filling; you excavate foundations and you
have the stuff for filling. What costs the money is
the transportation of the stuff to the site to be
filled in and then you build your retaining wall.
If anybody in Barbados is building a house of one-
half or one-quarter of that size, and he had to fill
in that proportionate space and spent that pro-
portionate amount of money in doing so, then he
could not build the house. It is either that the
people who make out these Addenda think that the
people in this House are very guillible or they are
very stupid. Let us take Item (b).
7.20 p.m.
It was intended to build the mechanical work-
shop at the Pine out of light steel, but because of
the delay in obtaining the steel, they have used
reinforced concrete. Then, it is stated that there
was an increase in the cost of two sets of 20' high
by 20' wide sliding doors and it was found neces-
sary to provide three sunken working and inspection
pits, an additional steel frame building for the
mechanical hoist, and an extra amount of filling
owing to the nature of the site. The additional oast
for that is $17,500.
I can see the reason why they wanted a larger
yard and store room for the Public Works Depart-
ment. The yard and storeroom were extended inside
at an additional cost of $5,000.
Then at the new Courts you incur extra
expenditure in preparing the foundations of the
vault building where soft ground was found and
the additional cost is $5,000. At the Government
Headquarters in Bay Street you needed an outside
building for use as a gardener's room. I presume
that is for the purpose of storing his tools such as a
fork, rake and so on. This room is estimated to
cost $2,500.
I am sure, Mr. Chairman, if any of us had
to erect a gardener's room of the dimensions of the
one there with a small concrete wall to put records
in, it would not cost $2,500. The trouble really is
that there is nobody to question these things when
they are put up before the Government. Whatever
figure is given to them, they accept and they do so
in nine out of every ten cases. Obviously, this
money must be used for other things than what
is put before the House. They would over-spend a
vote and say nothing. With the intelligence of the
members in this House, would you expect them
to believe that these amounts are wanted merely for
the items which appear in the Resolution?

Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, I do not
propose to reply to the last honourable member
who spoke because I do not think anybody shares
his views. As the Hon. Leader of the Opposition
has said in his remarks, he thinks a, full explanation
is given in the Addendum to the Resolution, and
to my mind I think a proper account is given for
the necessity of these increases of the various items.
As far as the point made by the honourable
senior member for St. John is concerned, I would
like to assure him that I heartily agree with him.
We have been looking around for the past month
for some place to house the Old Age Pension Office.
I agree that the building in which the staff is housed
is almost falling to pieces and there is necessity
for proper quarters for them. I want to assure him
that as soon as we find a suitable place or area, we
would do it.
Mr. ALLDER: I would not suggest that you
look around for another place with a view to renting
it. I feel the time has come when Government could
save money on it by constructing their own build-
ing for the purpose.
The question that the Resolution do now pass
was put and resolved in the affirmative without
On motion of Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS,
seconded by Hon. M. E. COX, Mr. CHAIRMAN
reported the passing of three Resolutions in Com-
mittee and the postponement of one.
Mr. CHAIRMAN reported to 0lr. SPEAKER
who resumed the Chair and reported accordingly.
On separate motions of Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUM-
MINS seconded in each case by the Hon. M. E. COX,
the three Resolutions were read a first, and second
time and agreed to.
7.30 p.m.

Hon. H. G. H. CUMMINS: Mr. Speaker, in
connection with the Resolution which was postponed
in Committee, it was suggested that a Select Cona-
mittee be appointed to give further consideration to
that Resolution.
I therefore beg to move that a Select Committee
be appointed to consider the Resolution for $2,000
Hon. M. E. COX: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in 'the affirm-
ative without division.
Mr. SPEAKER: I have the honour to appoint
the following to serve on such a Committee.
The Hon. Minister of Communications and
Works; the hon. junior meml'er for Christ Church;
the hon. junior member for St. Lucy; the hon. junior
member for St. George.
Hon. M. E. COX: I should like to ask Your
Honour to serve on the Committee.
Mr. SPEAKER: I am. not desirous of serving
on such a Committee.
Hon. M. E. COX: May I ask leave that the hon.
junior member for St. Andrew be appointed to
serve on the Committee?
Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member has asked
that the hon. junior member for St. Andrew be ap-
pointed to the Committee. Unless there be any objec-
tion leave will be granted the hon. member.
There being no objection leave was granted the
Hon. Minister.


Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the day
stands in the name of the Hon. Premier: to resume

FEB~uARY 25, 1957


Committee on a Bill to amend and consolidate the
Acts of this Island relating to the jurisdiction of
and the practice and procedure before Magistrates'
Courts and appeals therefrom, and to matters con
nected therewith.
Mr. Speaker left the Chair and the House went
into Committee, Mr. Smith being in the Chair.
Hon. G. H ADAMS: I regret that after post-
poning consideration of Section 68 for legal members
of the House who were not present, they are not
here. I propose now to deal with that Section whivh
is outstanding.
The hon. senior member for St. Lucy has mad,
restrictions about it and that was the chief reas,'n
why I postponed consideration so that other mem-
bers might express their points of view.
I now beg to move that Section 68 stand part.
In case the hon. senior member for the City does
not know what it is, it is about fingerprints.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: I beg to second
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I wonder why the
Premier said in case I do not know what it is, it is
about fingerprints! The only thing about it
is that the Premier postponed it in order to give
the legal members a chance to discuss it and I was
trying to get them in; here comes one, he seems to
be limping. Sir, this question deals with the Polici
taking fingerprints, and I think that the restrictions
levelled by the hon. senior member for St. Lucy were
to the effect that at least there should be some reserv-
ation and that you should not leave it merely to the
discretion of the Police Force. If a youngster of
around seventeen years is carried in for an offence
under the Highway Act, and the Section reads:
"where any person not less than fourteen years old
has been taken into custody is charged with an
offence before a Magistrate, the Magistrate may if h,
thinks fit, on the application of a Police Officer not
below the rank of Inspector order the fingerprints of
that person to be taken by a Constable." Well, I
think the restrictions levelled by the hon. senior
member for St. Lucy were to the effect that the
question of fourteen years was not quite right, and
also this should depend on the seriousness of the
offence. This is what I should really like to suggest
io the Premier; it is not on the legal luminaries, but
on him we should depend for the up and coming gen-
eration of this country. A youngster of sixteen or
seventeen can have a licence. He might commit an
offence for which he is carried in; for driving a car
without due caution or any driving offence und'I
the Highway Act.
7.40 p.m.
Where you have a Policeman not below the rank
of Inspector making any such application, then the
fingerprints are taken. I am wondering whether the
Hon. Premier with his experience in practising at
the Bar, does not think we should have some reserva-
tions there and let the Section read: "Any person
not below the age of 16 years." This Section was
postponed so that the legal members of this House
mirht be able to offer their strictures: if the legal
members are offering their strictures on a particular
Section. and they do not propose any amendment,
t.ln thet is not "nod crongh. T would like to hear
from the Hon. Premier whether, from his experience
the word "offence" in this Section should not be
defined. I do not think that this word "offence
should he so broad. I am just making an appeal
here; when you say where any person not less than
14 years old who has been taken into custody is
charged with an offence" and the Magistrate may, if

he thinks fit on the application of a Police Officer not
below the ranks of Inspector order the fingerprints
of that person to be taken, I say, it is not good
enough to take the fingerprints of a boy of the age of
14 years who has been charged with committing
a highway offence.
How many of us at this age of 14 years have not
been indiscreet? I suggest to the Hon. Premier that
this Section should read "Where any person not
below the age of 16 years." Under the Bastardy
Act, a man has to support his child up to the age ol
16, and that is the age which should be put in this
Section. We are here to make laws, it is true, but
we also want to see that the Country is properly
run. We represent people who have children. A
boy who has committed an offence may be rude to t1h
Police and the Magistrate can order that his finger-
prints be taken. I am not at all happy about this
Section, and I feel sure that the Hon. Premier is not
happy about it either.
I repeat; my idea is that this age should be
extended and the Section should read "Not below
the age of 16." Another thing is this: are you saying
that a boy's fingerprints should be taken and kept
for eternity? The provision in this Section might
have been alright in the past 16 or 20 years, but
not today. Under this Section, if a boy steals a
piece of cahe (which I suppose, many of us have
done except those who are paragons of virtue), the
Magistrate can order his fingerprints to be taken.
I am again appealing to the Hon. Premier to let
this Section read: "Not below the age of 16 years
of age."
Another point is this: here there is the question
of a boy being charged with an offence. I should
like to point out that if he is acquitted of the offence,
under this Section, you can still take his fingerprint.
and keep them for eternity. I do not think we
should treat the people of this Colony to such indig-
7.50 p.m.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: You must give magis-
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I cannot hear you.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: You see, we need a loud-
speaker. I was saying that you must give magis-
trates, however diffident practitioners may feel about
it, credit for using their intelligence. What magis-
trate, if a boy were charged with some trivial offence,
would, because a member of the Police Force asked
permission to take his fingerprints, give the permis-
sion? However, I would not myself object to the
using of the same expression "as appears to the officer
to be a serious one." If that expression is repeated
here, it would mean that unless the boy was charged
with something really serious that the magistrate
need not do it. I think that amendment would
cover the hon. member's point.
I may say that some young boy may go astray.
He may go out with a burglar and his fingerprints
may be left. The offence being a serious one, it may
especially if he thinks that the offence appears to him
to be a serious one (note, I am using the same ex-
pression as appears in Clause 66) on the application
of a member of the Police Force not below the rank
of Inspector.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, some-
times it is better to accept small mercies than nothing
at all and if the Hon. Premier is willing to put in
the Section "where the offence appears to the officer
to be a serious one," I think that will be alright.

FEB3RUARY 25, 1957


Now, what about the age of 16 years and not 14
years, I suggest that the age be 16 years because
for many years we have been making criticisms
against asking a fourteen-year-old boy to come out
of school.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I agree
with the age of 16 years.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, let us
turn now to subsection 4. The whole Section deals
with a person so charged. Sub-section 4 states that
Nowhere the fingerprints of any person have been
taken in pursuance of an order under this Section,
then, if he is acquitted, or the examining magistrate
determines not to commit him for trial, or if the
information against him is dismissed, the fingerprints
and all copies and records of them shall be destroyed.
Let us say that a boy is charged at the age of 16
years with an offence and before anything is proved
against him you take his fingerprints. I can well
imagine the Hon. Premier arguing over that if he
were in my position. I do not think that is British.
If it is to be before he is convicted, I would say 'no" ;
if it is after he is convicted, I would say "yes". You
say: "take the fingerprints," and then if the mag-
istrate acquits him that you will have the finger-
prints destroyed. The Hon. Premier knows well
enough that in any British country under British
law you are considered innocent until you are found
guilty. Not only that; we should avoid suspicion
of the citizen. We should not allow this sub-section
to stay in this Bill. I do not think this corresponds
to the traditional way of British justice. May I
ask the Hon. Premier what is done in this case in
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: The same thing as in this
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: It does not seem right
to me. However, Sir, it seems as if the lawyers have
abandoned me. It seems to me as if I will have to
accept the small mercies offered. It is not much
sense in butting my head against a brick wall. All
the gentlemen of the long robe have left me to argue
this alone and, as I see it, I will continue to argue
on this point but will not get any support. The Hon.
Premier has graciously agreed that it should be 16
years instead of 14 years and he has introduced
another amendment to say that the offence must be
of a serious nature.
For your information, I would argue, against
the provision of the Section where it states that
where a person is taken into custody and charged,
his fingerprints are taken, and then if he is acquitted
the fingerprints and all copies and records of them
shell be destroyed. I am saying that when the per-
son is convicted you should then take the finger-
prints, not when he is first charged. According to
this, the minute a person is arrested you can tak,
the fingerprints.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Not until he is charged
with the offence.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Yes, that is so, but the
ease may be one where some boy is charged for
parking on the wrong side of the road. I am referr-
ing to a boy probably going to school at Combermere
or Harrison College. It may be, he may be charged
with riding without a light attached to his bicycle
and coming up against a limb of the law he then
refuses to give his name.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the
hon. member did not understand me rightly. I also
agreed that it should only be done if the offence
is of a serious nature. It is not done as soon as the
youngter is arrested. An application has to be made
by a senior officer and he would have to satisfy the
Magistrate that the grounds were sufficiently strong,

or the case was of a serious nature to warrant a
record of the boy's fingerprints. You cannot record
them unless you have a special statute for recording
them but if the person is proved innocent, you say
you must destroy those fingerprints and all copies
and records of them.
8.00 p.m.
You record his fingerprints but if he is proved
innocent they must be destroyed. I agree, in the
way it must have appeared to the hon. member, that
it is not British Justice to convict a man or do any
tlung which looks as if you believe he is guilty. It
was changed in England and became the law because
the Police felt later on that if a man persisted in
committing crime it would help them to have the fin-
gerprints on record. If I were a magistrate or judg,
it would be of great help to have the fingerprints put
on record for the future as being of help to police
in keeping down crime; and while it is true that
barristers must exist, it is necessary to keep down
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I still have the layman's
point of view to which I have been accustomed, that
we have always been able to shout and say with
pride about the administration of justice. Anyway
I think the first thing I should like to ask is that in
line 2 the word "fourteen" be deleted and that
"sixteen" be inserted in its place, and in line 4,
after the word "think fit" insert "and if the offence
appears to be of a serious nature." It seems as if the
Premier has made his mind up about the other part
and nothing can be done. My own idea is that
fingerprints should only be taken after the court had
adjudged him guilty of the particular offence if it
were a serious offence. If the offence is serious and
,application is made by the police, then and only the],
should fingerprints be taken, but certainly not in
the case of a boy riding home a Saturday night after
being out with the boys and is charged with an offence
because he may be rude to some policeman. I know al.
instance of just a few weeks ago of a boy who was
absolutely correct when the police officer asked him
where he lived and he replied "Glendairy Prison,"
but the police arrested him and when a check was
made he was really living at Glendairy Prison, but
the police thought it was a joke. If nobody had
come to his rescue, it would have been considered
rude and next morning he would be in Court; he
might have been rude or he might have considered
the Police so foolish that he may have struggled
away; and as has been argued by the hon. senior
member for St. Lucy, as soon as you touch a police.
man or resist arrest the policeman may consider it
of a serious nature and take his fingerprints. That
is not so nice for a youngster. I agree you should
take the fingerprints of criminals and protect us
from them. Anyway, I do not think I can argue
any more, but I hope he will accept the amendment
and give some protection to the children, who, I
think, may find themselves in difficulty through this.
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, Section 68
deals with the taking of fingerprints of persons now
from the age of sixteen and upwards who have been
charged before a magistrate with a serious offence.
That is what I understand the Government has
accepted; and the fingerprints may be taken on
application of a police officer not below the rank of
inspector. I would like to know under what
authority fingerprints are taken at present because
sub-clause 3 says: "The provision of this Section
shall be in addition to those of any other enact-
ment under which fingerprints may be taken." And
this is only to be found in the Police Magistrates'
Act. I really cannot find it in any other Acts, and
not being a policeman I do not know the authority,


FKESUABY 25, 1957

FnnsuAs ~5 97 FIIL AE

and I doubt the honourable member knows him-
self. Fingerprints do not prove anything anyhow,
because the usual method of taking fingerprints is
to put some powder on the paper on which the
accused person has made an impression with his
thumb and then a photograph is taken of that.
Then, when they want to prove that the fingerprints
-compare with the fingerprints at the scene of the
crime, all they have to do is to take another finger-
print or thumb print off the same paper on which
the accused person has made an impression. It is
the most flimsy evidence anyone could produce in
Court. It is very simple and I defy anyone to prove
when they produce these prints, when, where, and
how the two photographs can be taken. Fortunately,
you do not have to deal with fingerprint evidence
much in the Criminal Courts of this Island, because
everybody recognizes it is the kind of evidence
which is capable of being manufactured without
.any difficulty at all; but there is not one provision
in Section 68-and I am sure that honourable
members will forgive me if I do not expatiate on
the provisions of Clause 68, Sections 1, 2 and 3,
because the various points have been adequately
dealt with by the honourable senior member for
St. Lucy and the honourable senior member for
the City but when you come to sub-Clause 4 which
says: "Where the fingerprints of any person have
been taken in pursuance of an order under this
section, then, if he is acquitted, or the examining
magistrate determines not to commit him for trial,
or if the information against him is dismissed, the
fingerprints and all copies and records of them shall
be destroyed," that is not good enough because you
have demanded in sub-clause 2 that the fingerprints
should be taken preferably in the presence of the
Magistrate. Therefore it is my humble submission
that the fingerprints ought to be destroyed then
and there in the presence of the Magistrate, because
they should bring the fingerprints and all copies
and record into the Court. Of course, we members
of the profession know that once your fingerprints
are tiken in Barbados they never leave the files at
all. I. do not agree that they should be taken; and
I can challenge the Acting Commissioner of Police
to eome in Court and swear on oath that they do
not destroy them. We all know they do not destroy
them. The fingerprints when taken should be taken
in the presence of the Magistrate and initialed by
him and produced in Court in evidence only if
they bear the signature of the Magistrate before
whom they were taken. It is/very, very simple: and
they can always keep a copy on the files. They
have an index system over there, they have pho-
tographs next to the fingerprints, and they can
always get them off the file to use against the
person accused of an offence. If it does not bear
the signature of the Magistrate to prove those -were
the fingerprints taken in Court, the Magistrate will
then be able to check on the number of copies which
he initialed and make sure the same number of
copies were destroyed in Court, so that if on a
subsequent occasion they produced a photograph
that was found on a windowsill or a pocket 'ook
and it does not bear the signature of the Magistrate,
that would be right out of Court.
8.10 p.m.
I think that m Sub-Clause (4) of this Clause,
words should be added to the effect that the finger-
prints and copies and records of them shall be
destroyed in the presence of the Police Miagistrate
who has tried'the offence. What happens now is this:
they take fingerprints, under what authority I am
not particularly clear. I was never interested to find

out that authority because they never tried it
with me.
The thing about practising in the Law Courts,
is that you are not supposed to know everything, like
the hon. senior member for St. Joseph seems to
think, but you are to be able to look for things, and
apply them intelligently when they apply. If I have
never taken the trouble to find out under what
authority they take fingerprints, it is because I have
never been interested in the matter. They never take
any fingerprints in the presence of the Police
Magistrate today; there is an unwritten rule that
if the fingerprints of a person have been taken,
that person is entitled to go to the Criminal Inves-
tigation Department and inform the prosecuting
Inspector or Superintendent that he would like his
fingerprints destroyed. If we pass this Clause as it
is now, the position is that all the Police Inspector
or Superintendent has to do is to tell a person that
his fingerprints have been destroyed, and the person
who has been acquitted would not be in a position
to say "yea" or "nay," because there is no provision
which demands that the fingerprints shall be destroy-
ed in the presence of the accused person or in the
presence of the Magistrate who has tried the case.
If the accused person is not represented by Counsel,
he is just chased out of the premises with the remarks
that he is lucky-
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: If I may interrupt the
hou. member, I quite agree with the principle which
he has enunciated; but he should, through the Bar
Council, bring the matter to the notice of the Judicial
Advisory Council, which under Section 161 of this
Bill, has the power to make rules providing, among
other things, for the practice and procedure of Mag-
istrates in exercising functions preliminary or inci-
dental to proceedings before them. In these rules,
it can be laid down that fingerprints are to be de-
stroyed in the presence of the Magistrate, and they
should be destroyed. It is better to do, that than to
put in that provision in the substantive part of the
Mr. BARROW: This is one of the rare occa-
sions on which the Hon. Premier has attempted to
make a contribution without launching into a philip-
pie at first. I am rather surprised that he should
suggest that something should be put into one of the
rules which, according to Section 161, the Judicial
Council is empowered to make in respect of certain
things. TUnder Part X of this Bill "Miscellaneous,"
you have Section 161 (1) which reads as follows:-
161. (1) The Judicial Advisory Council estab
lished under section forty-one of the Supreme Court
of Judicature Act, 1956 may make rules for regulat-
ing and prescribing the procedure and practice to be
followed in proceedings before a magistrate, and,
without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing,
such rules may make provision as to-
(a) the practice and procedure of magis
trates in exercising functions prelimin-
ary or incidental to proceedings before
(b) the service and execution of process is
sued for the purposes of any proceed-
ing before a magistrate;
(c) the keeping of records of proceedings
before magistrates and the manner in
which things done in the course of, or
as preliminary or incidental to, any
such proceedings, or any proceedings
on appeal from magistrates, may be
proved in any legal proceedings;

FEBnUABY 25, 1957


--------~~, --- -

(d) the functions of clerks for the purpose
of securing the attendance of persons
bound over conditionally by examining
magistrates to attend a trial on in-
(e) the furnishing of copies of depositions,
and of the information (if it is in writ-
ing) to a person committed for trial;
(f) which magistrate shall have jurisdic-
tion to hear any complaint;
(g) the matters additional to those speci-
fied in section seventy-four of this Act
on complaint for which a magistrate
shall have power to make an order with
the consent of the defendant without
hearing evidence.
(h) any matter which by this Act is stated
to be prescribed.
Nowhere in this Section do you have any pro-
vision in the Judicial Advisory Council to give to the
Magistrate the power of supervising the destruction
of documents, which power is inherent ii the Police
Department. Surely then, there would be some argu-
ment as to the authority within the province of the
Police Magistrate and the Commissioner of Police.
I do not know if it is because of the logic of the amend-
ment which I have suggested has appealed to the
hon. member and against his better judgment or
his dead body, which phases are being used all the
time. When something appeals to legislators on the
basis of logic, still the rash statements which they
have made in the past prevent them from following
the logical course.
I suggest that since we have made it. clear that
the fingerprints must be taken in the presence of
the Police Magistrate, then, of course, the Judicial
Advisory Council can say that the Police Magis-
trate should initial those fingerprints when they
are so taken, but we also want to ensure that the
provision is put in the main body of the Bill
itself, that the destruction of these fingerprints
takes place in the presence of the Police Magis-
trate himself.
The point which I was making when I was
interrupted by the hon. senior member for St.
Joseph is this: the procedure to-day, is that when
a person goes into the Criminal Investigation De-
partment as an acquitted person, and the request,
is made that his fingerprints be destroyed, they
either tell him: "You are lucky to get off, and get
out of here," or they will tell him: "We have des-
toyed them," or "We will destroy them." But
there is no provision whereby the Police Magistrate
has power to go to the Police Department to see
whether the fingerprints have been destroyed or not.
Since the hon. member agrees in principle, i
not in toto, with the observations which I have made
in respect of Sub-Clause (4) of this Clause then
I see no reason for not inserting the provision
Right here in this Clause.
8.20 p.m.
Because when we come to Section 161, we
cannot bring a mandamuss" against the Judicial
Advisory Council, the power that has authority to
make such a regulation. If they have power to
make it, the power under Section 161 is a discretion
ary one and not a mandatory one. Under Section
161. the Judicial Advisory Council is "allowed"....
They do not have to, and it may be something like,
fifty years before we get any provision inserted
whiei we want inserted.
Sir, I will give you an illustration. Sometime
in 1937 we brought into force officially the Food

and Drugs Act and in the Act itself, the Director
of Agriculture or the Executive Committee was
given the power to make regulations stating what
should be considered as pure milk. That is some
twenty years ago and it has not been done up to
today. The General Board of Health has wide powers
to make regulations for the carrying out of the
provisions of the law but that Board has been
most neglectful in the exercise of the powers which
are given it. The result is growing slums. When
you give a subsidiary body discretionary powers,
from my experience in Barbados, it seems to sit
down and do nothing. That is the position; that
is the only reason and it is not with reluctance
that I have acknowledged the fact that the hon.
senior member for St. Joseph is becoming more
amenable to reason. It is because of the sad
experience which we all have had in matters relat-
ing to regulations and subsidiary legislation in
that the authorities whom such things are put in
charge of never take the trouble at all unless
some specific thing causes them to make any regu-
My suggestion therefore, is that the fingerprints
should be destroyed in the presence of the Police
Magistrate and not elsewhere. You should not try
to maintain the ridiculous situation which now exists
of a discharged or acquitted person going to the
C.I.D. and being told that they have destroyed his
fingerprints. I know that if they destroy some, they
do not destroy all, so the documents remain to be
used against the particular person if he happens to
become within the toils of the law on a future occa-
Apart from those remarks, I do not think I have
anything else useful to contribute on this matter. I
have already spoken on the other clauses.
Mr. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, allow me just to
make a few remarks. I am unhappy about the Bill
which is before the House and I will be very pleased
if the Hon. Premier would give me a patient hearing
and then satisfy me to some extent, whether or not
I am wrong. Is this what we should expect with the
type of reform in advanced countries such as ours
and in some other Colonies? I refer to the type of
legislation which we have in this Bill. It does not
look like what we have had. I believe it is your
intention to remove those ugly strictures which are
likely to have an undesirable effect on our people.
As regards the Clause dealing with whipping
boys between the ages of seven and 14 years, I am
hoping that the Hon. Premier would explain or
satisfy me that I am wrong in my view about it.
That Clause has given me some concern and has left
me to some extent unsatisfied about it. Long gone is
the age where the Government hopes to subdue its
natives by flogging and I am yet to understand the
motTve why it is reasonable to apply it in modern
legislation. Now, let us examine if the idea of flog-
ging youngsters is correct. With the type of reform
which is now preached, can you achieve it by flog-
ging? What effect is flogging likely to have on a
boy between the ages of 7 and 17 years?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Which section are you dealing
with now?
Mr. MILLER: I am dealing with the Sections
of the Bill which have made me a bit unhappy.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Which section are you deal..
ing with now?
Mr. MILLER: I happened to be outside of the
House when the major part of this Bill was dealt
with. I am appealing to the Hon. Premier to satisfy
me on some parts of the Bill. I am not asking for
the recommital of any particular section; I am asking
for some latitude.

F1EBRuARY 25, 1957

FE.R.AY 25. 1957

Mr. CHAIRMAN: You will have to ask for re.
committal of the sections which you want to speak
on. That is the only way you can get some latitude
Mr. MILLER: I do not want to waste the time
of the House. I am asking for some latitude.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is
out of Order.
Mr. MILiLER: I do not want to ask for recom..
mittal of any section. I am asking you to exercise
some discretion. All I want to say is that the Bill
has not been accepted.
Mr. CHAIRVMAN: The honourable member is
out of Order.
Mr. MILLER: I believe, Mr. Chairman, you
would allow me-
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I cannot allow you. What
Clause do you want to deal with ?
Mr. MILLER: This is an awkward position.
I am a bit reluctant to do so. I am only asking you
to look at the Bill and hear me. I am unhappy
about the taking of fingerprints of youngsters and
I am particularly unhappy about the question of
appeal to the Supreme Court. I am not working up
any fury. I think this is a stage in our development
when the Hon. Premier would be willing to hear th -
humble appeal of a layman who sees something awk-
.ward in the development of the country relating tL
this Bill. This is the type of legislation that one
would expect to see in Africa. As I read the Bill
I somewhat saw the shackles and heard the clank oi
them in the prison.
The whole attempt of this move is to suppress
debate. Do you want to rob a Member of Parlia-
ment of saying what is national feeling and develop.
ment in your attempt to ridicule?The flogging of a
child is something that has been abolished. Is this
Government really agreeing to the flogging of a
child ?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is
out of Order.
Mr. MILLER: I am speaking on the question of
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is
out of Order.
Mr. MILLER Mr. Chairman, can I ask a ques-
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is
out of Order. I am not entertaining it.
Mr. MILLER: Can I deal with any section of
the Bill, or am I not expected to speak on it? Would
you kindly tell me what section of the Bill you want
me to deal with?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Section 68.
Mr. MILLER: Can I deal with any section of
the Bill? Am I allowed to speak? With your kind
permission will you tell me on what section I will be
allowed to speak?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: If you carry on I shall have
to rule you out of Order.
Mr. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, can I ask you ta
permit me some latitude on Section 68. not already
passed by this Chamber?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: You can stay the whole night
on Section 68.
Mr. MILLER: Can I speak on Section 130, part
9 on Appeals? Can I spend an hour on that. or must
I take the whole night on that?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable mem er is
making sport.
Mr. MILLER: I am not, Sir. You are putting
legislation on the Statute Book, that could throw
seven-eights of the people in prison; and that is not
what should happen in a civilised country. All T
am asking for is some latitude on this. The lawyers
are not particularly interested in it, because it prob-

ably means some fees; but I am not happy that we
should hurry it through. We have already spent
three days on it and if we want to be critical on this
Bill you know it can take four weeks of the Assem-
bly's business. With this Bill there has been the
usual talking and railroading. You are not likely to
have much legislation of this type because it provides
hunting ground for the lawyers, and I appeal to
you and it is in your place to give me some latitude
to speak on it. I am unhappy about the Bill and
about fingerprints, and what I want to say is that
it has not yet passed this Chamber but you seem to
be so rash with! me; I do not know if you are hungry
or if you feel ....
Mr. CLHAIRMAN: I have to rule you out of
Order and ask you to take your seat.
Mr. MILLER: Can I enjoy the freedom of this
Chamber to get up, again?
Mr. BRANCKER: Mr. Chairman, on Section
68 in connection with fingerprints, my objection to
the taking of them at all in respect of a non-con-
victed person is that it would be very difficult for the
layman to know whether what is purported to be
destroyed-that is, the copies and records of finger-
prints-are really the actual fingerprints which have
been taken. Nothing could be more important than
for people to satisfy themselves that what the Police
pretend to destroy are in truth and in fact the finger-
prints and copies and records of them of the person
who has not been convicted, and in any event another
point arises; whether before the destruction of such
copies and records you can be assured that there are
no photostatic copies made of them; because if that
is so, there will be very little difference if the copies
and records are destroyed if they keep photostatic
copies of them. I would tell you from experience
in practising in the Criminal Court, even now (I do
not know under what legislative authority they do
so) they invite you to have your fingerprints taken
when you are arrested and if you are a person of
a certain intelligence, you know they have no authori-
ty and you decline to take the invitation; but when
you accept the invitation and the ease ends in your
favour, there is to be this destruction of the copies or
what purports to be the copies and records. If the
case is at District "E" and the fingerprints were
taken at that Station by some member of the C.I.D.,
when the case is over and you go back for the copies
they tell you they do not have them and that you
have to go to Bridgetown. Sometimes when you go
to the C.I.D. in Bridgetown they usually tell you
they cannot find them: and it means that some poor
person has to take time off from work ,and has to go
to town and back in order to get the copies, only
eventually to be presented with something which
you are told are the fingerprints taken. I understand
that the honourable and learned member for St.
George has suggested that the person himself or her-
self should be allowed to initial the copies and they
would be assured that what they are getting back
are the actual copies and records which were taken
from them. [A VOICE: He said the Magistrate
should initial them.] I am corrected that he said the
Magistrate should initial them. Certainly, Sir, some
sort of safeguard is needed in the case of uncon-
victed persons. I do not know whether this is copied
from any English Legislation and it would be
interesting if the Premier would let us know if that
is so, because if this is, as the honourable senior
member for St. George has suggested, merely a copy
of some legislation which is practised in Trinidad or
Kenya or anywhere else, I do not see we have any
need to copy it. Sir, I do not think it would be fair
to you, although you were patient and tolerant
to continue this discussion any longer until you have
hacTyour repast and whatever accompanies it, and

~7EBRUBf~P 25. 19~7


O CA A TF U& 2 95I=.

I beg that you do now report progress and ask leave
to sit again.
Mr. MILLER: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirm-
ative without division, and Mr. SPEAKER resumed
(he Chair and reported accordingly.

On motion of Hon. Dr. H. G. I. CUMMINS,
seconded by Hon. M. E. COX, Mr. SPEAKER
adjourned the House for three-quarters of an hour.
8.35 p.m.


On re-assembling,
Mr. SPEAKER:On the adjournment, the House
was in Committee on the Bill to amend and consoli-
date the Acts of this Island relating to the juris-
diction of, and the practice and procedure before
magistrates' courts and appeals therefrom, and to
matters connected therewith.
Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair, and the House
resumed Committee on the Bill, Mr. SMITH being
in the Chair.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: On the adjournment, the
hon. senior member for St. Lucy was speaking.
Mr. BRANCKER: Mr. Chairman, I had com-
pleted my point; concisely as usual [Laughter,.]
Mr. ALLDER: Mr. Chairman, on the last oc-
casion when we discussed this Clause 68 of this Bill,
apprehension was expressed by a few members in
respect of the provision for the taking of finger-
prints. I shall read the clause so an to refresh the
minds of hon. members. It reads as follows:-
68. (1) Where any person not less than four-
teen years old who has been taken into custody is
charged with an offence before a magistrate, the
magistrate may, if he thinks fit, on the application
of a police ofieer not below the rank of inspector,
order the fingerprints of that person to be taken by
a constable.
(2) Fingerprints taken in pursuance of an
order under this section shall be taken either at
the place where the magistrate is sitting or, if the
person to whom the order relates is remanded in
custody; at any use reasonable force as may be
necessary for that purpose.
(3) The provisions of this section shall be
in addition to those of any other enactment under
which fingerprints may be taken.
(4) Where the fingerprints of any person
have been taken in pursuance of an order under
this section, then, if he is acquitted, or the examin-
ing magistrate determines not to commit him for
trial, or if the information against him is dismissed,
the fingerprints and all copies and records of then
shall be destroyed.
While I agree that in respect of certain serious
primes which have been committed, fingerprints
should be taken [Pause]. Mr. Chairman, I am
informed by the Clerk that the points which I wanted
to raise have already been raised, and that the Gov
ernment has accepted the suggestions which have
been made.
The question that Clause 68 as amended stand
part of the Bill was put and resolved in the affirmz-
ative without division.
On the motion of Hon. G. H. ADAMS, seconded
by Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS, the Chairman re-
ported the passing of thel Bill in Committee with


Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair, and reported
On motions of Hon. G. H. ADAMS, seconded
by Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS in each case, the
Bill was read a third time and passed.
Hon. R. G. MAPP: Mr. Speaker, I am asking
leave to take Order No. 4 as the next Order of the
There being no objection, leave was granted the
Hon. Minister.
Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day
stands in the name of the lion. Minister of 'rade,
Industry and Labour: Lo move the passing of the
following Itesolution: Resolution to sanction the
Regulations entitled "The exportation (Drawhaci~
of Duties on Cylinders containing locally Manufac-
tured Gases) Regulations, 1955.
Hon. R. G. MAPP: Mr. Speaker, hon. members
will recall that on the last occasion in June, this
year, when I attempted to deal with this Resolution,
Your Honour ruled that the Regulations to which the
Resolution refers, and which were laid on the table of
the House during the previous Session, should again
ce laid on the table before I could deal with this
Resolution. These Regulations were duly laid and
this Resolution is to give effect to such Regulations.
The Addendum sets out the position quite clearly
As hon. members are aware, this industry was giv.n
pioneer status, and exporters in the industry were
also granted a drawback on duties paid on cylin-
ders when they were re-exported. It was reprent-
ed by the industry that thd duties paid on these
cylinders when they came into the island amounted
to more than what was charged, in the majority of
cases, for filling them, and it would be an encourage-
ment to the industry if this drawback were given.
In accordance with the application, this drawback
was given to the industry. These Regulations were
made in order effectively to control the refund of
duties paid on these cylinders, and this Resolution
is to give sanction to these Regulations. I beg to
move that this Resolution do now pass.
Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
Mr. GODDARD: Mr. Speaker, as far as I see,
these Regulations are absolutely necessary if you
expect a new industry to thrive. It is a well known
fact that we import cylinder cases from Trinidad,
and T gather that they have similar regulations in
Trinidad: otherwise the industry would not thrive.
These cylinders are like empty bottles; the gas is
used, and the bottles are returned. You can see the
schooners taking these cylinders 'hack to Trinidad
T understand that thev intend to ship oxygen to tha
smaller islands, and the authorities are pressing for
these Regulations to be made law.
The question that this Resolution do now pass
was put and resolved in the affirmative without

Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of the Day
also stands in the name of the Hon. Minister of
Trade, Industry and Labour: to move the passing
of the following Resolution: Resolution to sanction

FEBsuauy 25, 1957



the "Customs (Petroleum Products Bulk U toragc)
Regulations, 1956."
Hon. K. G. MAPP: In connection with this
Resolution, Mr. Speaker, as is set out in the Adden-
dum, the Petroleum Regulations, 1936, and the Pe-
troleum (Amendment) Regulations, 1957, which iare
made under the Customs Tariff Act, 1921, specifical-
ly refer to the Bulk Storage installation at Spring
Garden. As has happened in the case of the Esso
Standard Oil Company, if any such Oil Company
applies to the Government to have Bulk Storage
Installations, we have to bring down Regulaticns
afresh. We feel that the procedure should be simph-
fled, and in order to give effect to that proposal,
we have brought down these Regulations. The
proposal is, that whenever a new Bulk installation
constructed, instead of coming down here with fresh
Regulations under a new name, we will simply list
the installations in a Schedule; otherwise these Regu
lations do not depart from the general lines of the
former Regulations.
In accordance with Section 2 of the Customs
Tariff Act, 1921, the Iegislature must give approv-
al of these Regulations, and it is in accordance with
the Act that this Resolution sanctioning these Reg-
ulations has been, brought before this House. T bhe,
to move that this Resolution do now pass.
Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
The question that this Resolution do now pass
was put and resolved in the affirmative without
Hon. Dr. H. 'G. H. CUMMINS: Mr. Speaker,
1hat concludes the consideration of Government
Mr. SPEAKER: Government Business having
been concluded, the House will now proceed with
the consideration of Private Members' Business.

Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Speaker, you will remea-
ber that I introduced a Resolution earlier today
dealing with increased advances to the Postmaster
General. I am now asking leave to deal with this
Resolution, before the consideration of Private Mem-
bers' Business is begun.
There being no objection, leave was granted tne
Hon. Minister.
Hon. M. E. COX: In connection with this
Resolution, hon members will see that in 1955, tne
House agreed to increase the amounts advanced to
the Postmaster General from time to time to a stun
not exceeding $800,000 to enable him to pay money
orders. The view was expressed at the time 1wy
some hon. members that at least these sums should
have amounted to $2,000,000. As the Addendum to
this Resolution points out:-
"The Postmaster General has reported that,
during the period January July, 1956, the t tal
money order payments amounted to $1,524,870 as
compared with $1,636,643 for the year 1955, and t-,at
during the first seven months period of this year
British Postal Orders alone amounted to $848,.125.
With the steady increase in money order remit-
tances each month it is anticipated that the three
million dollar mark ($3,000.000) will be reached by
the end of the current year.
The Postmaster General has recommended there-
fore that the amount authorised to be advanced for
the payment of money orders should be increase
to $1,500,000 and this Resolution is to provide the
necessary authority."
9.15 p.m.

It is hardly necessary, Mr. Speaker, to comment
at length on this, but it can be seen from the remit-
tances which are coming back here, both from the
United Kingdom and the United States, that it is
absolutely necessary to increase the authorized ad-
vance for the payment of these money orders when
they arrive; therefore, this Resolution seeks to give
the Accountant General the authority to advance to
the Postmaster General a sum not exceeding
Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
Mr. ALLDER: Mr. Speaker, I notice the business
of the Post Office has increased considerably and it
seems as if Tom, Dick and Harry are sending back
quite a lot of money. What I will like to tell the
Government now is that it seems as if the employ-
nient gaps in England are becoming closed; but
that. does not mean that you cannot get a couple more
thousands of our population there if you make regu-
lations and loans more easily available.
This is what I want to throw out to the Govern-
ment. Tell those members of the Select Committee
who select student nurses to be less embarrassiim
and more co-operative to the Government in getting
some more f our unemployed young women out of
the colony. It is just this morning that two of them
came to me and complained. The questions which
they are asked are really too embarrassing, although
the work which they were given to do was reasonably
done. Whoever the members of that Committee are
(I do not know them), I am just throwing it out
to the Government to let them know that we do not
want to make it too difficult for people who cannot
get employment in the island to go overseas if the
opportunity is there for them to go. I am saying
that the stipulations put up for student nurses are
greater by the local Select Committee than by th
Hospital authorities in England. It is a waste of
time for us to permit these handicaps to be main-
tained. They can only do greater harm to the colony.
Sir, I am proud to see that you have to give tv
the Postmaster General a sum of money like what yoi
are asking in this Resolution, because it shows that
the traffic has become considerably swollen. It is
only an indication to show the Government that it
does not matter where a suggestion may come from,
so long as it is constructive, do not refuse to work
on it.
The Government had to be threatened so as to
get them to decide to give assistance to the couple
of dozen persons who have been able to get to Eng-
land: and it is a bad reflection on the name of a
Socialist Government which realises that this com-
lunity is over populated and unemployment is too
great, when private individuals every other day can
be telling the world how many individuals they have
been instrumental in getting out of this colony. Were
it not for the efforts of private individuals, many of
our young girls and boys would not have been able
to leave the colony. It is a fact that they have suc-
ceeded in getting out a larger number than that
which the Government has helped. I have also been
told that when the Government sees advertisements
in the Advocate about girls going to Canada and
England to do nursing through the help of these pri-
vate individuals that the Government becomes em-
barrassed. I am told that members of the Govern-
ment have even suggested to the Labour Department
not to give that measure of co-operation to those
girls who have been sent there by certain private
individuals. That is something which this Govern-
ment should not do.
Mr. SPEAKER: I think I have given the hon-
ourable member a lot of latitude.
A VOICE: He is telling lies.

F=1&UARY 25, 1957




Mr. ALLDER: Let the honourable member get
up and deny that. I am only warning the Govern-
ment to stop that. Everybody knows and the so-
called Minister of Labour knows that we on this side
of the Table have had to fight a hard battle to force
his hands.
A VOICE: Fight for what
Mr. ALLDER: We had to fight the Government,
and the Hon. Minister of Labour had to be sent for
at 'Government House to discuss the matter with us
At that time the Hon. Premier said that not one
Tom, Dick and Harry could get Government money
to go there. Let the Hon. Premier get up and deny
1hat and we can summon the Head of the Adminis-
tration to prove that. They can sneer: but the fact
remains the Ministers of the Government are so ob-
livious to proper suggestions that they had to be put
on the cross before they decided to give any assist-
Now I have heard them taking the praise of
people having left the colony. The next time they
try to take the praise-
Mr. SPEAKER: The honourable member is not
speaking on the subject of this Resolution.
9.25 p.m.
Mr. ALLDER: Mr. Speaker, before emigration
started from this island to the Mother Country you
did not have to ask for any additional funds to accom-
modate the Postal Department and it is a fact that
if you did not have it, you would not be handing .
Resolution like this.
Mr. SPEAKER; The honourable member fails to
see he is dealing with a subject not now under dis-
eussion. Can he possibly fail to see that? Does he
want to impress me that he thinks otherwise ?
Mr. ALLDER: I do not know, Sir.
Mr. SPEAKER: Well, the honourable member
has been speaking that way for the greater part of
his speech.
Mr. ALLDER: However, Sir, I would still like
Government to do its utmost to see and realise that
this opportunity might not pass our way again and
therefore we should try to make as much of the
opportunity as we can. If we miss this now, Sir, we
might have to wait until another war comes before
the condition is created overseas for an emigration
scheme of the magnitude which now exists there.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: A Resolution of this
nature .....
Mr. ALLDER: I am not finished speaking, Mr.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: A Resolution of ibis na-
ture, Sir, is always very gratifying because for so
long we have lived in this country, and not until just
over the past three years, I would say, we have seen
anything; over the three--figure mark dealing with
postal orders and remittances from the United King-
dom. It is therefore very gratifying to find, especial.
ly to us in the Opposition that our labours and
speeches were not in vain when we pressed for a
scheme to help these people migrate to the United
Kingdom. What the Addendum to the Resolution
says makes it more gratifying: "The Postmaster
General has reported that during the period January
-July, 1956, the total money order payments
amounted to $1,524,870 as compared with $1,636,643
for the year 1955, and that during the first seven
months' period of this year British Postal Orders
alone amounted to $848,828." That is indeed grati.
fying, for over all the period of years that Barbados,
which has been under British rule, at no time in its
history never got remittances of that magnitude from
the United Kingdom. It might have been so with
people who went to the Panama Canal or Cuba or
the United States of America, but today it is Eng-
land. Today whatever efforts were made by the

Government to assist these pmuple to gu to jnglanLo
and work are paying dividends. It is not asking
too much from this indication that Government should
certainly do more to assist people in going to Eng-
land. The Addendumh goes on to say: "it is antici-
pated that the three million-dollar mark will be
reached by the end of the current year." Those of us
who know our Barbados and Barbadians, know that
few Barbadians who leave this country and work
for money will not send back some to help his family
or set up a home in this country for his future. That
is where we are getting the dividends on the money
spent on any system of emigration. While it is true
what the honourable member said about the rumours
that the Government has been attempting to stay
in the way of persons going outside of the Gov
ernment scheme to England, I am not saying whether
it is true or not today. They will hear rumours and
it is their duty to try and make clear the position to
the public and say it is not true. I have had an
occasion, and I said this before, of obstacles being put
in the way of people who wanted to go, not directly
by the Minister but by Government. The tendency
by Government in lending money for girls who' want
to go to get jobs in England is to say that somebody
outside must sign the bond, and I have often had to
ask: "For God's sake, if the girl's father, although
he may be a carpenter or mason and has land, pro-
vided he has something, can sign, why set these
obstacles?" And I have absolute proof for this by
saying you have got to bring somebody beside your
father. To me it is stupid; because if the father
can offer security, who can be a better security than
the father? Quite recently, reading an Australian
iJournal, I saw that Canadians and Englishmen are
leaving by the thousands and going to Australia;
therefore, there is no difficulty for our boys and girls
gcing there to find work. Englishmen are leaving
England for Australia and New Zealand and are
making room for our boys and girls: so there is no
fear that it is going) to come to an end. They are
being assisted in Australia and New Zealand with
money for the agriculture of land; and even Bar-
badian people are becoming jealous and seeking
ways to get to Australia and New Zealand. A lot of
people are leaving for these countries because they
want to go in for practical farming. There is going
to be no difficulty: and we should take this opportuni-
ty, especially where we see here that for the first
seven months of the year the total payments
amounted to $1,524,870. I think it was for the last
ino years $80,000 as against $848,828 which means
that this emigration is paying off great dividends.
When Barbadians send money back home to help their
families you get everything circulating. I suggested
orce before that what the honourable member said
about there being so many obstacles is true. Although
it might not be by design, obstacles have been put m
the way of these people, because (a) they have to
ro through Government channels and (b) if Govern-
ment decide to lend them a proportion of money
and the father has to sign, they must bring a stranger.
That is unnecessary. The father can sign as well as
anybody else, and to my way of thinking it is absolute
nonsense. Let the fathers, or the uncles sign, but for
God's sake do not ask them to get somebody outside
The next point which has been raised and whr.
is going to be an election issue and not just a case
of words, is the dividends which are paying off here
When you come to think that in less than three years
nearly $3/4 million come back which go to pay 4f,
passages, one wonders whether Government could
not have decided to approach the West Indian Nevi
Nation Company after consultation with the smaller
Islands and see whether they could by some means,
charter the boat and reduce the passages of these

FEBEGuAIIR 25, 1957..


FEB1u.&Y 2, 157.21 ICIA GAETT

people and bring it to around $200. That would be a
sound proposition to put up because we still have
another 20,000 people who could go and settle in
England. Our economy can carry it, and the fam
ilies will benefit, as this Resolution indicates today,
by the remittances which come back through the Post
Office, the majority of which finds itself in the gen-
eral circulation of the economy of the Island.
9.35 p.m.
I have discovered that the majority of this money
which is coming back to the Island now is not finding
itself in the general circulation of the economy of
this Island; this money is coming back for the repay
mont of passages. I am wondering what is the
position of the Government in this matter. These
people will repay their passage money; there are
not going to be any defaulters. I would say this;
even if there were to be any defaulters, look at the
dividends here tonight! Motor car, house, cow, every
thing is sold so that these people can get out to
England and work for a living. When the passages
are liquidated to some extent, then this money will
get into circulation. Therefore, we have very great
pleasure in supporting a Resolution of this nature,
especially when the Postmaster General says that
these money order remittances will soon reach the
three million dollar mark with the steady increase
in these remittances each month.
I am suggesting that you should find a
way in getting together with the smaller islands
in conference, as a result of which you can obtain
a reduction in the cost of the passages of these
intended emigrants; because if this money is going
in the repayment of passages, the bulk of it is going
to the Italian people. I consider that arrangements
should be made for a reduction in the cost of pas-
sages; if you think of the Regional Economic Com-
mittee, and so on, you can think of the man power
which we have to offer. At this stage, I do suggest to
the Government that they should consider ways
and means of reducing the cost of passages to Eng-
land; 'I also suggest that they should put down some
money so that, after your Panel or Committee nas
made investigations, and you have discovered that
people can find work and are ready to go out, you
-can make an advance to them. I say that this is such
a strong investment, that there is absolutely nothing
wrong even if you pay the cost of these passages and
you do not get it back.
All the people who are going to England. arc
finding work; therefore let us reduce the cost of th(
passage by having a Conference with the other
islands in connection with this matter of transport.
The Government .can sit by and become the fourth
partner. I want to say that in this matter, the menm--
-ers of the Opposition will have the satisfaction
that we have made the 'Government realise that
people would go to England even if they had to
sell their houses etc., in order to work for their fam-
Mr. TTTDOR: Mr. Speaker, on the 21st Decem-
ber last year. the Hon. Minister who has intro-
duced this Resolution. brought before us a similar
Resolution: and I think he received the same recep-
tion which he is now receiving; that is, a whole-
hearted expression of the pleasure of the whole
House. as to thb. favorable result of the Emiera-
tion Scheme. particularly with respect to the United
Kingdom. I remember at the time. that one or two
hon. members said. that while they were elad to
hear that permission was being sonicht for the
Postmaster General to have at his disposal what
then looked like the very laree sum of $800.000.
tbey felt that within a short time the Government

would have to come back here for an increase and
tonight the Hon. Minister of Communications has
come back and is asking us to increase this amount
to $1,500,000. Again, Mr. Speaker, the amount is
going to be more than that, as we have been told
here in the Addendum to this Resolution that it is
anticipated that the three million dollar mark will
be reached by the end of the current year.
9.45 p.m.
It is unnecessary to remind the Government
as to how fruitful has been the Opposition in this
House in bringing to pass this favourable situation.
Whoever is. entitled to have any claims to this
favourable position, at least they on that side have
no claim to it. There must be a spark of con-
sciousness left with them, Your Honour, which will
prevent them through modesty from claiming any
great share or indeed any share at all in the migra-
tion projects which have become so fruitful.
However, I am wondering if the time has not
come for the Minister and his Colleagues to revise
,he whole policy of granting advances to the Post-
master General and find some way in which they
can so subscribe to the public funds while at the
same time they can give him the flexibility which
he wishes without it becoming necessary for them
every few months to authorise the Accountant Gen-
eral to give him an increase advance : because it
is a fact that the more people that go to England
and the more fruitful employment they find, the
more remittances will come in. I do hope some-
thing will be arrived at whereby the Postmaster
General will be given authority on a wider basis
so as to save the trouble and time of coming to
the House every few months.
My next point is this. Your Honour will have
noticed that of these large sums which are coming
back to this Island in remittances that the major
part of them are already earmarked for their pay-
ment of Government loans. That means, as the
hon. member has drawn to our notice, the repay-
ment of the passage money so that even if $2 million
comes back from Great Britain, a large part of thai
ii already earmarked for the repayment of loans, not
only to Government, but to private people. Welcome
as it is, we cannot even say that the relatives ani,
dependents s of those people are benefiting to the full
est possible extent. I am wondering if Government
realises this, if it would not like to modify its policy
.o as to enable people to get out with greater ease
II is a dismal thing to mention this, but I think it is
important. If I may give an instance, a person has
to pay $5 or $6 just to get a bond drawn up so as
to get money from the Government. Even that, I
think you can spare them. In the summer months
when persons are leaving for the United Kingdom,
surely it is not necessary to put them to the expense
of getting winter clothing when in these months
the winter is still a long way off. I understand
that there is this necessary precaution against
migrants arriving in winter without winter cloth-
ing. Surely in the summer months when they are
going, it is not necessary to burden them with
that expense because they would arrive in England
within four or five months of the winter season
and that will be time enough for them to get as
much money as to acquire winter clothing.
I am wondering if the process could not be
somewhat speeded up by the relaxation of the
rule which exists that intending migrants must
prove that they are first going into a job before
they can qualify for a loan. While it is true that
each migrant would prefer to have assurance of
work before he leaves here, everybody knows that
there is relatively little difficulty in finding work

FB7~ituARY 25, 1957.


354 ~~~~~OF~FICIAL GAZE~TTEFiunx2.95

up to now in England. Even with the changes
taking place in British industry through the intro-
duction of automation and the changing techniques
in factories, yet the unemployment which exists
in England is not unemployment due to the fact
that work cannot be found but due to technological
changes. It is also true that if large numbers of
our people crowd themselves for psychological rea-
sons near each other, there is bound to be in those
places where they crowd themselves the resulting
housing shortage; but if they spread themselves
over the whole country, the housing shortage need
not occur. I am principally interested in getting
things speeded up so that more people would get
the opportunity of going to England If you keep
in touch with these matters, you will be interested
to know that from the latest statistics it appears
that between 60,000 and 100,000 people in England
leave Great Britain every year as emigrants to the
Dominions. The figure is really 75,000. We sel-
dom get more than 15,000 West Indians from the
whole Caribbean area going there so that you will
see that man for man, population for population,
that at no stage we (I mean West Indians) are
overcrowding Great Britain. I think that if this
Government realises, as I hope it will, that more
Englishmen are leaving England than West Indians
are going there, it should take every opportunity
to see that more of our people will go.
While I am on this point, Your Honour will
be interested to know or to recall that sometime ago
(I think it was last year) our Government did
make arrangements for a pilot scheme of domestic
servants or girls to be trained in domestic science
to go to the United Kingdom under the auspices of
the National Institute of Hotel Workers. I do not
recall whether we have been told anything about
them or how well they have done, but the Institute
with which I have been in correspondence wrote to
say that as a result of that experiment and I quote:
"We are in correspondence with the Barbadian
Government over the future of the Scheme in the
light of the experiment and we are too hoping that
we would be able to continue our co-operation on
perhaps a slightly different basis." Surely the Gov-
ernment and the Hon. Minister of Labour will say
whether they propose to send more of our girls and
what that slightly different basis is because the
getting of our women and girls there is a very im-
portant thing.
It is for these reasons that I am glad of this
Resolution. The remittances indicate that there is
an increasing number of our people in the United
Kingdom. They indicate that there should be no
talk about the anti-honesty of our Barbadian folk.
When it is borne in mind that they are sending
back between $11/% or $2 million, it shows that they
have put more money into circulation in the few
months that they have been there than has been
done in all these years. Therefore they have
strengthened to some slight extent the economy of
the Island, in a way in which the Government has
not yet done. I hope that the time will come when
we will hear that between $5 million and $6 million
is what the Postmaster General is using to clear
postal orders. It is even more welcomed when we
hear that that large amount is going into the
pockets, not of the shipping people and of the
Accountant General, but in the pockets of the fami-
lies and friends and members of those people. That
will be a welcome day.
10.05 p.m.
Mr. BRANCKER: There has never been an
occasion when a Resolution of this kind comes before
this Chamber that I have not stressed the necessity-

and I do it again now--or 'Government favourably
and sympathetically to consider granting of the full.
amount which is needed, instead of the amount which
is computed at three-quarters or two-thirds of the
minimum amount required for persons who are about
to go to the United Kingdom in search of work.
Even if at an early stage Government felt it would
be unwise or unbusinesslike or economically perilous
to do so, now, Mr. Speaker, they should be convinced
that there is no justification for causing those people
who want to go from here to the United Kingdom to
have to pawn or pledge or borrow or encumber what
small property they have in order to raise the mini-
mum amount. They must have to qualify for a Gov--
ernment loan and which is the minimum essential for
them to migrate under reasonable conditions. When
you have, as you do now in this Addendum before us,
that this amount is required in order to provide for
the payment by the Post Office of these very consider
able amounts which are coming back as a result of
the emigration to the United Kingdom, surely, Gov-
ernment can see they will be taking on unreasonable
risk, (but a risk which Lloyds would take) in lending
the full amount: as it is almost a certainty that they
will get it back. It may be said, Sir, that the people
are going, notwithstanding the fact that they have
to raise some of their own, but if Government is
sympathetic, it is our duty to help these people so
that they would not have to go to the extreme
to raise the amount to meet the minimum sum
which is required. Therefore, I suggest the-
time has come for Government to reconsider; and
in every case where it is obvious that the person
cannot find the full amount, to lend them all so
that they do not have to sell their last rags or their
shedroof in order to raise the amount to complete the
sum which is necessary-for them to go to th[TUnited
Kingdom in search of work. As to the bond, Sir,
that is really an interesting point to which the hon.
senior member for the City has referred. The belief
is that that amount goes to pay the Queen's Solicitor's
fee for preparing the bond. If that is so, tiie job
to-day is certainly a lucrative one; but that is only
\an argument for making the post of Queen's Solicitor
a whole-time post like the Solicitor General's. As I
said when I raised the matter in this Chamber some
time ago, there is no excuse any longer for the Queen's
Solicitor not to be a whole-time post, and it does not
look well in Court seeing the Queen's Solicitor ap-
pearing on one side and the Solicitor General on the
other side of the ease as we saw not very long ago,-
but that is a slight digression for which I am grateful
to Your Honour. The hon. senior member for
Bridgetown who is a keen businessman-in Bridge
town, let alone in this Chamber-has given food fox
thought. The West Indian Governments bought th,
"Wingsang"-the "West Indian" as it is now called.
One presumes the West Indian 'Governments might
get together persons of like minds and who havw
people to go to England: and either this boat should
be used. or a liner should be chartered to take peopL
from this island to the United Kingdom. That must
work out cheaper to them; and the very least the
Government should do if the idea has never occurred
to them.until the suggestion was made in this Cham-
ber by the hon. senior member for Bridgetown, is to
give it some consideration and contact certain firms
who are agents for liners and find out what it would
cost to charter a liner for that purpose, if it is felt
that the "West Indian" is too small and uncom-
fortable to make 'it profitable and useful to send boat
loads of emigrants by that boat to the United Kiig.
dom. They should also bear in mind that if the li~e-



FmalUA.Y 25. 1957


ly date of departure from the United Kingdom is
widely known, likewise people from England finding
difficulty in getting a boat and held up there indefin
itely for steamship accommodation, would know that
the "West Indian" is doing a return trip to the
British West Indies for their return journey to some
of the other West Indian Islands. I think, Sir, that
despite the fact that the suggestion which is obvious
has come for the hon. senior member for the City,
it should make no difference to Government and
should receive careful consideration. They should,
after consultation with the proper authorities and
the agents for the Company which operates the
"West Indian", see whether it would not be found
feasible, as in the case of companies which operate
steamships which come to Barbados, to charter a boat
every month or every other month in order to send
off these emigrants as reasonably as possible, because
I think they are going at a certain rate now; and witr?
what it costs, we want them to spend as little a,
possible so that they would be able in quick time to
return to this island money to be repaid not only t,
the Treasury, but to the people of this island which
must necessarily circulate. So I hope we will hear
from Government that this idea coming from a busi-
ness man and sounding so feasible will receive the
consideration which it deserves.
The question that the Resolution for the sum of
$1,500,000 do now pass was put and resolved in the
affirmative' without division.


Mr. SPEAKER: The first Order of the Day
stands in the name of the hon. junior member for St
Peter to move the second reading of a Bill to amend
the Trade Union Act, 1939.


Mr. F. L. WALCOTT: Mr. Speaker, this amend
ment here stands in my name. It is an amendment
to the Trade Union (Amendment) Act, 1949, and t
those who are not familiar with it, it is quite simple
It deals specifically with the question of peaceful
picketing, and here in Barbados it took the Barba
dians a long time to understand what peaceful picket
in- was and it was eventually passed in 1950. In
order to familiarise members with it, the present
section reads as follows:-
"It shall be lawful for one or more persons ap
pointed by the trade union, the firm or the individual
employer directly concerned in contemplation or
furtherance of a trade dispute, to attend at or near -
house or place where a person works or carries or
business or happens to be other than where he resides,
if they so attend merely for the purpose of peacefully
obtaining or communicating information, or of peace
fully persuading any person to work or abstain from
10.15 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, the words specifically have been'
put in this Act, "other than where he resides." The
amendment which is proposed by me is to delete
these words in order that it becomes permissible for
peaceful picketing to take place at his work place
or the place where he works. The English Act reads
as follows:-
"It shall be lawful for one or more persons
acting on their own behalf or on behalf of a trade
union or of an individual employer or firm in con-
templation or furtherance of'a trade dispute, to
attend at or near a house or' place where a person

resides or works or carries on business or happens
to be, if they so attend merely for the purpose of
peacefully obtaining or communicating information
or of peacefully persuading any person to work or
abstain from working."
It should be drawn to the attention of hon.
members that even in the United Kingdom, this
question of peaceful picketing goes a little further
than our Act, because it says: "It shall be lawful
for one or more persons acting on their own behalf
or on behalf of a trade union...." whereas here
in Barbados, the Act says that the thing must be
done by a trade union. To those hon. members who
are not aware of the full significance of the Trade
Union Act, I will say that the purpose of the Act
was to be a restraint on Trade. There is no question
about it that if a trade union has to do something
which is a restraint on trade, then that is something
which the Law prescribes. In Barbados, we should
have the same privilege as obtains in the United
Kingdom. You cannot argue that the Law can be
changed in the United Kingdom, but not in Barba-
dos because we have not yet evolved to that stage;
to argue that, would be to argue that we should not
have any peaceful picketing at all.
In a trade dispute, the employer is always at
an advantage in that he is able to send his motor
car or any of his servants to the home of the em-
ployee who is on strike and bring him out to work.
A trade union cannot by any means peacefully
picket that man's home as a means of telling that
man that he should not come out to work. To reiect
or block the passing of this Act in Barbados is to say
the fundamental trade union rights should not exist
here as they exist in the United Kingdom, and that
the average worker in Barbados is not entitled to
the same right as trade unionists in the United King-
This amendment give the trade union the right
to persuade a workman at his home. The idea of
peaceful picketing does not mean anything other
than what the Law prescribes; all it means, is that
a strike has taken place and that although you are
an employee, you should not now be working. The
practical point of view is this: the trade union does
not picket a man's home because that is not the
operating place, but that right is in the United
Kingdom Act although it may not be used. They
had to put it in the Act, because things might
become so hard that a man's home would be the
important place at which to picket. Although they
may not have any industrial dispute, the right is
still there.
I might go further and say that there is no
intention of any revolution in this matter. Some
employers have been given the idea that there is a
certain anti-trade union attitude prevailing among
members of the Government, but the Government
must be aware that in Jamaica, there is the revolu-
tionary idea that apart from peaceful picketing, they
iill pass legislation to make the trade union recog-
nised where the majority fail to do so. In Barbados,
you do not get the pro-trade union attitude, because
you have those who are closely connected with the
Government writing anti-trade union articles. For
that reason, the idea in Barbados has been to make
the employers believe that the trade union must be
a child of the Government, and not an independent
This amendment stands on its own feet in com-
pliahce with the English Trade Union Act; and if
there is any rejection to this Act, there should be a
rejection of many of the Acts which we pass, based
on Acts of England. Any" attempt Which is made to

FEBaruaay 25, 1957



reject this Bill is to say that the trade union in
Barbados is not entitled to the same rights as obtain
in the United Kingdom. I have much pleasure, Mr.
Speaker, in moving that this Bill be now read a
second time.
10.25 p.m.
Mr. TUDOR: I beg to second that.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Before the question is
put, Mr. Speaker, I suppose I should say something.
My first point is as regards the statement made by
the hon, member that the tendency of Barbados was
to be anti-Trade Union and because he as General
Secretary of the Barbados Workers Trade Union has
said that, it can principally be-taken that he meant
it in respect of the employing class. That is not z,
correct statement nor can it be considered a true
statement. I have heard from no less a person than
the ex-General Secretary of the Barbados Workers
Trade Union, Mr. Hugh Springer, the statement taat
he had found in his travelling from Jamaica and all
through the West Indian Islands that the tendency
was that the employing class in Barbados was more
cooperative and more harmonious to Workers' Trade
Unions than in any other West Indian colony. There
fore I am bound to protest against those remarks
That is not correct because the employing class in
Barbados, generally speaking, very quickly recog
nised and climatised themselves to having Trade
Unions and dealing with them. They recognize thai
it is much easier to deal with one body of men than
to deal with a body of individuals. If the idea of the
Introducer of the Bill when he made that reference
was in respect of the employing class, then I say that
he is not correct.
As regards the second reading of this Bill, I
want to say that I have listened to the hon. introduced
very carefully and I must confess that I have a high
regard and appreciation for the hon. member's ability
in dealing with Trade Unions, for indeed in a very
short time he has acquainted himself with all matters
relative to Trade Unions, and that not only in Bar-
bados. He made it clear that these amendments
would give the Trade Union the right to peaceful
picketing at or near the residence of a person directly
concerned in a Trade dispute. When this Bill came
before the House on the very first occasion I said
then that I agreed with peaceful picketing. It was
something which Unionists should have the right to
do. They should be able to peacefully picket their
employers' place of business and to say what they
struck for; but I never agreed that the right should
be given to workers in Barbados to picket a man's
home and I am going to vote against it. I never
agreed to vote for any such thing that contained
peaceful picketing of the home of an owner of a busi-
ness after he leaves his place of business for home. I
do not agree that a trade unionist should wend him
self to the man's home, sacred as it is to the man, and
where his wife and family are living. Other hou.
members may want to say so but do not have the
courage. I am saying that if provision is made for
that, it might be dangerous to either of them. I can
well imagine what will happen, taking into consider-
ation conditions as they are locally. Mr. Speaker, 1
can never be anti-trade union; I come from too far
down the ladder. Let. us surmise that Mr. X, ai
employer, leaves his place of business for home and
there is a trade dispute going on. A trade unionist
with a placard, which he has the right to carry, then
walks up to the man's home and pickets. A big row
ftkes place and as a result somebody gets hurt.

The hon Introducer of the Bill knows how 1 feeL
about uusa matter oI peaceful picketing, but I am not
supporting the amendment which says that you should
go to anybody's house to peacefully picket, because
you can intimidate the man's family and children
there. I am not going to vote for this amendment
and, as a matter of fact, I am going to oppose it and
still get back into this House. If you want to picket
anybody's business or mine, I say, "yes" but I will
not support the picketing of the home of somebody
Let us say that the hon. junior member for St. Joseph
who is Director of the Self Help Enterprises is en
gaged in a trade dispute with its employees. He leaves
Tweedside Road where all the employees are picketing
and goes home to Sugar Hill where there is his wife
and children. There up in St. Joseph he sees some-
of his employees with placards picketing his home.
Do you not see that you are courting trouble? I am.
sure the hon. junior member for St. Joseph will agree
with me.
The hon. junior member for St. Peter is a very
eminent and distinguished trade unionist and he has
done a very good job as General Secretary of the
Barbados Workers' rade Union. If his amendment
is put in because from his experience he finds tHat
when trade unionists at a firm strike he wants the
legal right that unionists should he able to go to th-
home of a brother trade unionist so as to discuss with
the man something about the strike or to bolster him
up that is alright; but I do not agree if it is the law
in England that it should be law of Barbados be
cause I know my Barbados. I am not voting for it
:ere. I know I cannot be taken to be any Capitalisi
by my saying that. As a matter of fact, my stock
and-trade is in here.
I am throwing this out as a warning. When you
picket a man's home you are going to intimidate thai
man's family. You may put this on the Statute Book
hut it could not be used. It is far different in Eng..
land. Of course you picket a dress factory, store or
motor car factory of an owner, but you will find that
the owner lives at a hotel and you do not know which
room he occupies: or you will find that the owner
lives 500 miles away from his place of business, so
you are not going there and picket. As a matter of
fact, the Director of a Business in England may be
living in France. Lef us be practical. I am not
foinr to take the case of any particular individual
but let us say that there is a strike on in Bridgetown
Everybody knows where the owner lives. The owner
leaves his place of business to go to his home and you
ro there to picket. You must intimidate his wife and
children and when you do that you are courting a let
of trouble. I will support the other part of the
amendment but not that.
10.35 n.m.
Mr. GODDARD: Like the hon. senior menmbol
for the City, I am of the same opinion. You cannot
say that the employing class in Barbados is opposed
to the Union, because I have heard that the co-
operation with the Barbados Workers Union is much
higher in Barbados than in any other West Indian
Island; so we start off with that. We have passed
Trade Union laws and we have passed peaceful
picketing, and that applies to buildings which we
accept; but I cannot accept the principle of taking
picketing to a man's home whether he is a labourer
or an employer. Indeed, you have taken this to a
man's home where there are minors or children. The
person may have children coming in from school
ai d you are asking for trouble. I do not know what
hi ppens in England, and similarly what the law is
in Jamaica I do not know; but I think there is some

FFBRuARY 25, 1957.



difference between the Jamaican law and the one in
E gland. I speak under correction, but 1 think that
is so, and I can foresee a lot of trouble. Today
there may be no difficulty and, conditions may be
calm and we may be tempted to pas it; but when
we have a strike and we go to a person's home where
there are minors and people who are not accustomed
to this sort of thing, you are going away from
peaceful picketing probably to intimidation. I can-
not agree and only on these grounds I will vote
.against it. I am not afraid of picketing, but it must
be done where a business is established; I think it
is wrong to take it to a man's home whether it is
in England or in any other countries of the world
They must have special reasons for it, I must vote
against it.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Unlike the last two
speakers, I am not discussing the principles of this
Bill. I am going to vote against it for the reasons
I have already given. Whether the hon. member uses
this against me, it is absolutely immaterial to me;
but I have assured the hon. member for St. Peter
here in this House that the labour code which the
I.L.O. went to such pains to produce for Barbados
has arrived in this Island and the Union ought to
have had copies this week. The Government is asking
the Union, the Chamber of Commerce and other
employers for comments, and I absolutely and com-
pletely object, where you have to go in for wholesale
amendments, to be having piecemeal amendments. I
have given the member my assurance and I repeat
it is immaterial to me whether he can accept my
word or not. Government is still prepared to discuss
both with the Union and employers such comments
as they may have to make in the whole code of
labour legislation. Tomorrow, we are discussing
with the Union a matter concerning Sugar licences
and the Provident Fund one aspect of Labour;
and I again say that Government is not going to
agree to piecemeal legislation. I said that I am going
to vote against the second reading and I am not
prepared to discuss the merits of the Bill as far as
peaceful picketing is concerned, but on the grounds
I gave weeks ago and I repeated two days or so
ago, I shall vote against the second reading.
Mr. F. L. WALCOTT: Mr. Speaker, it is also
immaterial to me what the Premier says with respect
to what I say about him, because it is immaterial
to me what he says about me, and there is no love
lost. Whatever he said he need not repeat again,
because it is immaterial to me what he thinks about
what I do. So far as the Bill is concerned, I can
appreciate his stand. His stand is one of delay in
anything brought forward by me; and he is similar
to the boy who had failed, and when asked why he
had failed he replied that when he was going to
pass they stopped work. You will remember I left
this Island about seven weeks ago and the Trade
Union was to have received the labour code. Far
from receiving it we have heard everything about
the Trade Union Secretary not being a fit person
to be the Secretary of the Union as quoted by the
Premier. That has nothing to do with this Bill or
about asking employers to agree to the principles of
it; but may be the Premier has seen fit to hold out
on this because it is his point of view. Government
never said they intended to amend the Trade Union
Act, with respect to peaceful picketing; therefore
the labour code could not have this. Are you going
to submit to the employers whom you are approach-
ing that you are no longer dealing with it because
I have something to do with it? He is telling mem-
bers of the merits or demerits of it and that he is
-going to vote against it, and doing everything pos-

sible to prevent this from being passed. It is not
anything you are doing to me; it is the workers who
are backing me. This is not a matter on which he
should be naive, and the workers know what it was
tor twelve weeks despite what the Premier said, but
he would get the answer in due course from the
bulk of people in this country if he by his subtlety
does anything to prevent this from passing. For
twelve weeks we found that no worker could go
to the home of an employee and persuade him nor
to go to work, but that an employer could send his
vans and emissaries to the workers' homes and
bring them out. The purpose of the Act is not to
be naive; the Act is to preserve, all stages
right not only to picket at work but at a person's
residence. The Trade Union Act gives the right to
peaceful picketing, and to satisfy the mind of the
Leader of the Opposition, I would not expect the
hon. senior member for the City or the hon. junior
member for Christ Church to agree to peaceful
picketing that goes as far as this. I would say that
any professing Conservative must of necessity vote
against peaceful picketing. The whole idea in the
past was that conservatives voted against Trade
Union amendments because they felt it should not
be a restraint on trade. They have fought for years
the Taff Vale case, and after they had struck on that
and caused damages, they decided that the Union
should pay damages. Legislation has put it down for
the furtherance of trade dispute that if the employ
ers lose something there is no restraint and no
payment of damages. The hon. junior member for
Christ Church has had that experience at his store
when the bakers went out on strike and he had a
lot of flour to be given to the pigs, and the pigs were
better off on that occasion. That is the Trade Union
Act the world fought for, in the United Kingdom,
the United States and in Europe.
1.0.45 p.m.
In order to settle the minds of hon. members.
as to how far peaceful picketing is to be directed,
I shall just read this passage from the Trade Union,
Law in England. This is what is stated:-
Similarily, if the manner of picketing ceases
to be peaceful or becomes an obstruction or a nuis
ance, or endangers the public peace, the picketing
will cease to be lawful. Thus, if a picket commits a
private nuisance, as as by violently and continually
banging on the door, shouting obstructing ingress or
egress, or otherwise seriously interfering with the
enjoyment of the house, or if he commits a public
nuisance such as behaving in a manner calculated tc
cause a breach of the peace, or unreasonably ob
structing the highway, his common law right to pick
et and his right to 'attend' under the section will
cease and neither will protect him from civil or crime
inal liability for any of these acts, or for ary
'watching or besetting' 'with a view to compel'
which he may also have committed."
I have read that passage, so that hon. members'
:inds may be put at rest. Peaceful picketing carT
not interfere with the residents in the home; it is
nothing to do with the persons who live there. You
cannot do anything with the employer at all; you
Cannot commit an act which would be an unlawful
.;ct; you can only do something which the act permits.
you to do if you have the right to picket a man'.
home or workplace. If you are picketing at a factory
you cannot go inside the gate and say that you art
picketing inside the premises. I do not intend tc
lay down any legal dogma in so far as trespassing iv
concerned, but I will be at pains to point out that
hon. members need not take peaceful picketing to

FELBauARY 25, 1957i


mean that a trade union is allowed to go at the
employer's home and that anything would le saia
to the employer at all. Those who are picketing dc
not say anything to the employer.
When it comes to the question of the workers
aome, you will persuade the worker, but anything
which is said and done to the employers would not be
in accordance with the Act. There have been many
cases which have occurred throughout the world
where there have been breaches of the Act. I should
like to say this, that if the Government vote against
this Bill, let them vote against it; but to say that
you are voting against it because it is not in the
Labour Code, and to say that you should ask the
employer's approbation as to whether there should]
be peaceful picketing or not, that suits the Hon
Premier and people like that; that is the type of
trade union which he would run.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: I object to being mis-
quoted. I said not only the trade union's views but
also the views of the employers would be placed
against the Labour Code. There is the question of
superannuation payment, provident fund, and so on
Mr. F. L. WALCOTT: Why should that b-
mentioned in this connection? [ASIDES] Why
don't you keep quiet?
Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member must sit
when I am on my feet; he has refused to obey the
Chair. I wonder if the hon. member realized i3.
what a position he has put himself. I have repeated
ly cautioned the hon. memlier not to lose his temper
and to contain himself; he is now addressing some
hon. member on the Government bench, and is
taking no notice whatever of the Chair.
Mr. F. L. WALCOTT: I am very sorry if 1
have offended Your Honour, but the Hon. Minister
of Labour knows nothing about the things of which
I am speaking, and he is making sotto voce remarks
which Your Honour cannot hear. Why not come
uut in the Election campaign and say what you want
to say?
Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member must not
say that he is sorry and still offend.
Mr. F. L. WALCOTT: In so far as tte illogic
cal statement which has been made by the Hou.
Premier is concerned, I ask: what is the use of talking
about postponing this Bill until you have the Labtaur
Lode? That is only a means of delaying the consid
eration of this Bill. What do you mean? Do you
mean that whenever there is anything to be passed
you have to wait for the Labour Code? Mr. Matthews
was waiting on the Labour Code all this time, and
when you talk about the provident fund, what prov
ident fund can you put into a Labour Code? What
has that got to do with the Trade Union (Amend
ment) Bill? If the Government had brought down
this Bill, after the Holidays with Pay Bill, and the
Hon. Premier had sat down with me and seen what
peaceful picketing means, he would have brought'
it in this House and got it done; he would have been
able to see what peaceful picketing means in the
matter of a trade union, but he says that I have
messed up the Advocate strike, and we cannot pass
anything which this chap has brought in.
What the Hon. Minister knows about this Act,
is as much as I know why that aeroplane went down
in the Mediterranean. [Laughter]. But there are
wonderful articles written in the Beacon. However,
the hon. member's days are numl ered, certainly
politically. In so far as this amendment is concern-
ed, I have no compunction as to what the worker,
feel about it. There was the Annual Conference
which the Hon. Premier has addressed, and this


same Conference has approved of this Bill.
10.55 p.m.
I am saying that the workers have confidence in
me so far as this proposition is concerned, therefore,
I did not leave it to the Government to make a de-
oision. I leave it to the workers who have a greater
voice than the few members of the Government
Now, as regards this amendment, I will say, and
the workers will say so too, that when the Govern-
ment votes against it, they are not voting against it
because the conservative members in this House said
that they are not going to vote for it. And their
reason for doing so is because they are not mentally
divorced from the sacred idea that a man's home is
something to glory. They do not realise that a man's
home is not greater than your bread and butter.
This amendment of peacefully picketing a man's
home would not have been in Trade Union legislation
were it not that the workers fought hard for it. It
v..as put in the Trade Union Act precisely for
the benefit of giving workers the opportunity to be
able to persuade their comrades, if their comrades
wanted to work when a trade dispute was g3ing on
and there was a strike; or in case their comrade
iived far from the factory and did not know what
was taking place, they would be able to go to him and
tell him: "Well boy, the other tellows are on strike:
do not go to work."
I will not say anything more on what the Hon.
Premier said that the whole idea of his speaking on
behalf of the Government is because of the labour
code. The reason for many of them not supporting
this amendment may be some of the other reasons
you have heard. However, Sir, I feel I have dis
charged my duty and have done so in accordance
with the wishes of the workers whom I have the
honour to represent.
The question that the Bill be now read a second
time was resolved in the negative, the House dividing
as follows:-
Ayes: Mr. F. L. WALCOTT, Mr. BRANCKER, Mr.
Noes: Mr. SMITH, Hon. G. H. ADAMS, Hon. Dr.
H. G. H. CUMMINS, Hon. C. E. TALMA, Hon. R. G.
MAPP, Mr. HOLDER, Mr. GODDARD, and Mr. E. D.
During the taking of the vote by Mr. Clerk,
Mr. F. L. WALCOTT pointed out to Mr. SPEAKER
that the honourable junior member for St. Michael,
(Mr. BRYAN) was not entitled to vote because he.
was not present when the question was put.


Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I am asking leave to
deal with Order No. 7 which stands in my name
and which is an Address to His Excellency the Gov-
ernor. It reads as follows:-

The House of Assembly
His Excellency The Governor

The House has learned with pain--"
Mr. SPEAKER: Is that the next Order?
Mr. BRANCKER: Mr. Speaker, because of the
lateness of the hour I will ask leave to defer all the
items under my name which immediately precede
that of the honourable junior member for St. Lucy.
Mr. TUDOR: I take it that the other hon.
members will do likewise.

4~ Fas-v2, 97OFCI AET

The Address reads as follows:-


The House has learnt with pain and dismay of
the high death rate from starvation of children in
the island.
2. The House is of the opinion that a free dis-
tribution of milk to the parents and guardians of all
children under five years, would tend to ameliorate
this condition.
3. Accordingly, the House requests Your Ex-
cellency to take all the steps necessary to make such
a benefit available to the parents and guardians of
young children."
Mr. Speaker, I did say Order No. 7 but the one
I meant is Order No. 8.
Quite briefly, Mr. Speaker, I wish to say with
respect to this Address that the people in this island
have long suspected from their own experience that.
all was not well with the great infant mortality in
this island; but I must confess that it was a shock
to a large number of people to hear. in a broadcast
given by the Medical Superintendent of the General
Hospital, of the appalling death rate of children
from starvation. Your Honour will recall that Dr.
Humby made it quite clear that of 267 deaths in the
General Hospital of children under 5 years, fully
186 were deaths from starvation.
Now I do not think I disclosed any secret whec
I told you, Mr. Speaker, that it was my good fortune
with one or two other hon. members to have further
elucidation on this, and we-eCre told-which was not
news to us-that the distribution of milk to children
under five years would meet the ease.
Now Mr. Speaker, the Address is so worded
that it does not in any way bind the Government a,
to a particular method of doing this. It is realized
by members on this side of the House that Govern-
ment must have a free hand as to how best it can
give effect to this desire of the House, but we do
feel the matter is important enough; and that in the
Island the yery last thing that should be said of us
is that we allow all sorts of things to happen ar:d
among these things we allowed little children to
starve to death. If it is only milk which will keep
them alive between the years of birth and the com-
pletion of five years, I think, Mr. Speaker, it is not
too much to ask of them to give effect to the desire
of this House so that these children might not die
from starvation which we think is very cruel anJ
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I beg to second thu
Address which has been so ably moved by the hon
junior member for St. Lucy. I do not suppose any
body can dispute the facts which he has brought
before the House because it comes from the Medical
Officer at the General Hospital, and it is very re
grettable in these days to hear these things. I have
much pleasure in seconding the Address.
Mr. BRANCKER: I heartily agree with the
principle of this Address, but I would suggest that
a small amendment be made and I move that in tht
second paragraph line two, the word "needy" )e in
serted between the words "all" and "children", so
that it would now read: "House is of the opinion
that a free distribution of milk to the parents and
guardians of all needy children under five years,
would tend to ameliorate this condition.'" -For ob
vious reasons the children of the well-to-do should not
be getting free milk; and then as a consequential
amendment in paragraph three the deletion of the

penultimate word "young" and the substitution of
"all such children," that is the needy children.
S Mr. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member accept
these amendments?
Mr. TUDOR: Yes.
The question that the Address as amended-o
n w pass was put amd iesolvod in the negative
seven hon. members voting "No" and five haon
members voting "Aye" as follows:
Mr. CRAWroRD and Mr. E. D. MOTTu--5.
Noes: Mr. SxM T, Hon. G. H. ADAMs, Hon.
Dr H. 0. H. CUMMINs:, Hon. C. E. TALMA, ,Hon
R. G. MAPP, Mr. HowLm and Mr. BaYAN-7.

The Order Paper having been fixed.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: I beg to move
that this House do now adjourn for a fortnight.

Natural Gas And By-Products

Mr. CRAWFORD: Sir, !I want to second the
motion for the adjournment and I want to use the
opportunity to draw to the attention of the House
a matter of some importance. I refer to the supplies
of Natural Gas in this Island. Honourable mem-
bers may have read in the Trinidad Guardian on
Sunday that there is a move on foot in Trinidad
to start a $17 million plant to convert Natural Gas
into a fertilizer and plastics. Now, I think the in-
dustry is being established under the initiative of
Mr. Albert Gomes. I must say in this respect that
Mr. Gomes has acted in advance of me because I
have been working on this matter for about a year,
and I had planned a trip to Britain and Germany
later in the year myself in order to see at first hand
the process. Our supplies of Natural Gas are the
biggest in the British Caribbean whereas in Trinidad,
Natural Gas is a by-product of the Oil Industry.
Here we have wells of almost unlimited resources
from which we get our Natural Gas. Now, the manu-
facture of a fertilizer is made, Sir, by the combina-
tion of Natural Gas and air, and with our unlimited
supplies of Natural Gas we could easily have con-
verted some of these resources into a fertilizer even
if only for domestic consumption. Barbados uses
about eight thousand tons a year and its expendi-
ture is over $1 million:, and of course
there is a West (Indian market. Trinidad spends
about $3 million on fertilizer and neither in British
Guiana, Jamaica or any other British West Indian
colony is there any supply of Natural Gas, so that
in Barbados, Sir, we have available a Natural Gas
resource which could be easily and readily be sup-
plied for the manufacture in the process of
fertilizer and in the second instance later on for
plastics. About a year ago Mr. Arthur Coppin,
retired Government Analyst; drew this matter to
my attention and we had Several discussions on it;
I have correspondence on the matter, and as I said
earlier I had planned to go to Europe later this
year to get first-hand information on the production
of Natural Gas. I am therefore very sorry to think
that Trinidad will be the first to establish an in-
dustry of this kind in the British Caribbean, because
I know what it will mean to that colony from the
point of view both from the domestic consumption
and export trade; and since our supplies are what
they are, and since there is no comparable source
of supply in the area, I do not see why the Govern-
ment of this Island should not bestir itself to
endeavour to make some use of these resources ir


. FEBRUARY 25, 1957

OE FEBRuARY 25 1957

this manner. There is no reason why both Barbados
and Trinidad should not embark upon fertilizer
from the respective supplies of Natural Gas. Even
if we use ours alone for domestic use, we have a
one million dollar domestic turn over to support
the industry, and while on this matter, Sir, I should
like also to add that before some other West Indian
colonies start upon it and we are left in the cold,
that we have one other natural resource of some
importance which could be easily be converted into
an industry. I refer, Sir, to the large supplies of
sea-weed which abound on the coasts of Barbados
at certain times of the year.
11.15 p.m.
The manufacture of seaweed into alginates is
now a big industry in Scotland, and these plants
which are dotted all along the Scottish coast
provide work at certain lean times during the year
for farmers and agricultural workers who may
not be otherwise employed. The Scotland seaweed
plants only supply one-quarter of the British con-
sumption of alginates, and here in the West Indies.
we could make available to the British industry an
appreciable portion of the alginates which it needs.
I have mentioned the seaweed industry, because.
as I said earlier, in the same manner as Hon. Albert
Gomes of Trinidad has been thinking of converting
natural gas into fertilizers, some other West Indian
Government may be thinking in terms of processing

and getting equipment for the manufacture of
alginates from seaweed. It is not an expensive
process; I have been in correspondence with the
British Alginate Industries Ltd. in London, and
I propose to get some direct information myself;
but I only mention the matter now, because I do
not want the same thing which happened with the
conversion of natural gas into fertilizers to happen
with this industry.
It is, of course, too much to hope that this
Government could be asked to take seriously the
possibility of using the Island's natural gas re-
sources along the lines which I have indicated; I
say so advisedly. It is as well that the people of
this Colony should know that where there are
natural resources like these, with a certain amount
of initiative and a desire to improve the economic
condition of the Country, we should take advantage
of these natural resources. If I did not mention
the matter earlier, it was because I wanted to see
what the manufacture was like in order to speak
with authority; but I am sure it is not too late for
some action along these lines to be taken.
The question that this House do now adjourn
until this day fortnight, Tuesday, 4th September,
1956, at 3 o'clock p.m. was put and resolved in the
affirmative without division, and Mr. SPEAKER
adjourned the House accordingly.
11.22 p.m.


P~RRTTARV 2Fi. 1~Fi7

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