VOL. XCI I.
BRIDGETOWNI, BARBADOS, 3RD JANUARY, 1957
NOTICE NO. 1
MEETING OF LEGISLATURE
The House of Assembly will meet on Tuesday
8th January, 1957 at 3 o'clock p.m.
OTICE No. 2
Captain C. E. Neblett, BParbados Regiment,
additional Aide-de-Camp to His Excellency the
Governor, with effect from 6th November, 1956.
His Excellency the Governor has been pleased
to appoint Lieutenant L. G. Quintyne, Barbados
Regiment, as an additional Aide-de-Camp, with
effect from 6th November, 1956.
NOTICE No. 3
LIQUOR LICENSE NOTICFS
The a-pplication of John Joseph Smith, shop-
keeper, of St. Matthias Road, Christ Church;, within.
District "A", for permission to sell Spirits, Malt
Liquors, &c., at a board and shingled shop, attached
to residence at St. Matthias Road, Christ Church.
Dated this 2nd day of January, 1957.
To:- Miss M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".
JOHN J. SMITH,
N.B.-This application will be considered at a
Licensing Court to be held at Police Court, District
"A", on Monday, the 14th day of January, 1957,
at 11 o'clock a.m.
M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".
The application of Goulbourne Alonza Webster,
Shopkeeper, of Rock Hall, St. Philip, for permis-
sion to sell Spirits, Malt Liquors, &c., at a wall
building at No. 39 Roebuck Street, City.
Dated this 3rd day of January, 1957.
To :-C. A. ROCHEFORD, Esq.,
Ag. Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".
N.B.-This application will be considered at a
Licensing Court to be held at Police Court, District
"A", on Monday, the 14th day of January, 1957,
at 11 o'clock, a.m.
C. A. ROCHEFORD,
Ag. Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".
The application of Edwin Franklin, shop
keeper of Thomas Gap, Westbury Road, St Michael,
for permission to sell Spirits, Malt Liquors, &c., at
a board and shingled shop at Thomas Gap, Westbury
Road, St. Michael.
Dated this 2nd day of January, 1957.
To :-MISS M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".
N.B.-This application will be considered at a
Licening Court to be held at Police Court, District
"A", on Monday the 14th day of January 1957 at
11 o'clock, a.m.
M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".
3wl gn is
OFFI L G T J
LIQUOR LICENSE NOTICES-Cont'd
The application of Ralph Waring Greaves,
Shopkeeper, Fairfield + Road, Tudor Bridge, St.
Michael, for permission to sell Spirits, Malt Liquors,
&c., at a wooden and galvanized shop situated at
Water Hall Land, Eagle Hall, St. Michael.
Dated this 2nd day of January, 1957.
To:- Miss M. E. BOURNE,
Piolice Magiatrate, Dist. A."
RALPH WARING GREAVES,
N.B.-This application will be considered at a
Licensing Court to be held at Police Court, District,
"A," on Monday the 14th day of January 1957
at 11 o'clock, a.m.
Miss M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A."
The application of Olga Cummins, Shopkeeper
of 1st Ave., Grazettes New Land, St. Michael, for
permission to sell Spirits, Malt Liquors, &c., at a
/wall and galvanized shop attached to residence at
1st Ave., Grazettes New Land, St. Michael.
Dated this 2nd day of January, 1957.
To:- Miss M. E. BOURNE,
Pcl0ice Magistrate, Dist. "A."
N.B.-This application will be considered at a
Licensing Court to be held at Police Court, District
"A," on Monday the 14th day of January 1957 at
11 o'clock, a.m.
M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A."
The application of Holman Bullen, shopkeeper,
of Lodge Hill, St. Michael for permission to sell;
Spirits, Malt Liquors,. &c., at a board and shingled
shop at Lodge Hill, St. Michael,
Dated this 2nd day of January, 1957.
To:--Miss M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A".
for Holman Bullen.
N.B.-This application will be considered at a
Licensing Court to be held at Police Court, District
"A," on Monday the 14th day of January 1957 at 11I
M. E. BOURNE,
Police Magistrate, Dist. "A"
NOTICE No. 4
IS HEREBY GIVEN that CLARENCE
FITZHERBERT IHAMBLIN of Club Morgan Gap,
Clapham, in the parish of St. Mich,ael, in this
island, has petitioned His Honour the acting Chief
Judge of the Court of Ordinary of this Island for
a grant of letters of Administration of the real
and personal estate and effects in this island of
Ismay Arlene Hamblin, late of Clapfham in the
said parish of Saint Michael and island aforesaid
who died in the said island on the 5th day of Novem-
ber, 1956 intestate.
AND NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that an
S:r part application for such letters will be made
at the sitting of the Court of Ordinary on Friday,
the 18th day of January 1957 at 11 o'clock in the
Dated the 3rd day of January, 1957.
YEA WOOD & BOYCE,
NOTICE No. 5
INCOME TAX NOTICE
Notice is hereby given in accordance with sec-
tion 24, Income Tax Act, 1921, that income tax re-
turns are required from
(a) all resident companies whether incor-
porated or unincorporated, societies,
trusts or persons engaged in any trade,
business or profession;
(b) all non-resident companies whether in-
corporated or unincorporated, socie-
ties, trusts, or persons engaged in any
trade, business or profession or having
income arising in this island;
(c). all owners of land or property whether
a' taxable income has accrued during
the: past year or not;
(d) all married men who are living with
or wholly maintaining their wives whose
income including the wife's income is
$1,300 or over for the past year;
(e) all other persons whose income is
$720 or over for the past year.
Forms of return may be obtained from the
Inland Revenue Depariment, Bridge Street,
AFTER THE 1ST DAY OF JANUARY, 1957,
and the forms duly filled in must be delivered to me
on or before the following respective dates:-
1. Returns of persons whose books were
closed on the 31st, day of December, 1956,
on or before the 31st day of March, 1957.
2. Returns of personn; whose principal place
of business; is not situate in the island o0
or before tle :30th day of June, 1957.
3. Returns of all other persons, on or before
the 31st day of January, 1957.
N. D. OSBORNE,
Acting Commissioner of Inland Revenue.
FORMS to be used-
Use WHITE form if you are in receipt of emol-
umeints which will be subject to Pay As
You Earn deductions.
Use PINK form (a) if you are engaged in
trade or business as a
Proprietor or Partner.
(b) if return is submitted on
Behalf of a limited liabil-
Use GREEN form in all other cases.
(1) Any person failing to make his return
-within the due date will be liable to a fine
not exceeding $480.00 and not less than
(2) Except in cases where the owner of the
income is incapacitated and/or the per-
mission of the Commissioner has been
obtained to signature by another person,
the form must be signed by the person
whose income is returned.
(3) Either the husband or the wife may re-
quest the Commissioner by notice in
writing on or before the date prescribed
for the delivery of the return to divide the
tax and issue separate assessment notices.
(4) Any person who is not domiciled in this
island and who, although not having resided
here for six months during 1956, would
still be regarded as resident for taxation
purposes, may claim, on or before the date
prescribed for the delivery of the return,
to be charged as a non-resident.
JAN-UARY- 3, 1957
The following accounts in the B'arba.dos Government Saving Bank not having had any trans-
action for over ten years, notice is hereby given that unless claims are established on or before the 30th
June, 1957, these accounts will be dealt with as required by Section 22 of the S'avings Bank Act, 1914
Alkins, Clarence 0 'Neale
Armstrong, James Hurd
Alleyne, Theodore, tr. Maggie Jones ..
Armstrong, Gerald, tr. Elvira Armstrong
Barker, Edward, tr. Olga E. Barker ..
Barbados Girl Guides No. 5 Company ..
Brathwaite, Henry Martin
Babb, Fitz Herbert St. C.
Collymore, Helena., tr. Simeon Collymore
Corbin, Hyacinth N., tr. Osbourne Corbin
Cummins, Helen Joyce
Cox, Hubert St. Clair
Emtage, Lawrence May Briggs
Edwards,. Almie, tr. Olga Edwards ..
F ield, Emily ..
Folkes, Cecil ..
Foster, Carlos P.
Hoad, Eugene, tr. Lolita Hoad .
Ifill, Eleanor, tr. Etheline Ifill
Ifill, Oliver, tr. Ruth Leslie
Jones, Louise, tr. Albert Jones
Johnson, Susan .. ..
. aitt, Iris Ursula, tr. George Taitt .. .. 1,357.13
. Thomas, James Lawrence, tr. Sarah Thomas .. 15.26
- Wason, George, tr.Woodroffe Wason .. .. 347.19
Watson, Claire Dorothy .. .. .. 24.51
Wilkinson, Kenneth, tr. Mabel Wilkinson 17.09
Webster, Henry Lisle or -- Phyllis M. Webster 41.05
Wood, Rupert, tr. Ida Wood .. .. .. 7.15
Webster, Maggie, tr. Allan Webster .. 8.92
Walcott, Clinton Theodore .. .. .. 9.04
.. Williams, Seon tr. Ethel Williams .. .. 305 .5
Whitehall, Darnley .. .. .. .. 134.49
M. W. CLARKE,
14th December, 1956,
Squires, Lionel .
Small, Irene, tr. Samuel E. Small
JANUARY 3 1957
King, Leslie Evans or /-Edna King .. ..
King, Dorothea E. or /-Elise Husbands
Knowles, Gertrude R.. M ..
King, Austin, tr. Iris Clarke
King, Ethel ..
Legall, Ralph Archibald
Lovell, Amy .. ..
Lowe, Pearly .. ..
Maynard, Gladstone Clairmonte
Newton, Ena ..
Phillips, Lucilla, tr. Lewis G. Phillips & Beatrice
Mann .. ..
Puckerin, Ashton Fitz G., tr. Josephene Knight
Parris, Ivy Irene, tr. Shirley A. Parris
Phillips, Joseph Ri.. ..
Pilgrim, Elsie Isalie
Rice, Joseph, tr. Martha Rice .
Reid, George McDonald
Rodrigues, Isabel Melania ..
RETURN OF RAINFALL AT CENTRAL AND DISTRICT POLICE STATIONS FOR THE
WEEK ENDED 31ST DECEMBER, 1956
STATION c 1 1
Central Station ... ... ... -03 .03 .07 .03 .1Q
District "A" Station ... ... .05 .04 .02 .02 .13
"B" ,, ... ... .02 .15 .20 .03 .04 .44
Four Roads Station ... ... -- .03 .07 .02 .04 .16
District "D" Station ... ... .11 .09 .03 .23
,, "E" ,, ... ... 07 .06 .04 .17
Crab Hill Station ... ... .- .02 .02 .04
District "F" Station ... ... .15 .15
Belleplaine Station ... ... .04 .01 .06 .03 .03 .17
Holetown ... ... ... .08 .08 .04 .06 .01 .27
AVERAGE ... ... ... .02 .07 .03 .03 .01 .01 .17
____ ___ __ __ __ ___ ____ ___ __
Dated 3rd January, 1957.
R. A. STOUTE,
Commissioner of Police,
JANUAaRY 3.7 19577
Subsidiary Legislation Supplement No. 1
Supplement to Official Gazette No. 1 dated the 3rd Jan., 1957
POWER OF DISALLOWANCE
His Excellency the Governor has been notified that
the Power of Disallowance will not be exercised in
respect of the undermentioned Act:-
No. Year Short Title
21 1956 (No. 2) Act, 1956.
The Income Tax (Amendment)
40 1956 Offences against the Person
(Amendment) Act, 1956.
41 1956 The Customs Tariff (Amendment)
(No. 5) Act, 1956.
45 1956 The Customs Tariff (Amendment)
(No. 6) Act, 1956.
1956 The Customs Tariff (Amendment)
(/(No. 7) Act, 1956.
(M.P. 2020/S. 5/T.1)
(M.P. 1008/S. 16/T.1)
Defence Regulations, 1939
ORDER MADE BY THE COMPETENT AUTHORI-
TY UNDER REGULATION 50 OF THE DEFENCE
This Order may be cited as the Defence (Control of
Drug and Patent and Proprietary Medicine Prices)
(Amendment) Order, 1956, No. 5.
2. The Schedule to the Defence (Control of Drug
and Patent and Proprietary Medicine Prices) Order, 1942
as contained in the Control of Prices (Defence) (Amend-
ment) Order, 1955, No. 2 is hereby further amended by
deleting all the words, figures and symbols occurring in
the columns marked "UNIT OF SALE" and "MAXIMUM
RETAIL PRICE" in respect of the Article "Aspirin
(Bayer's) bottle of 100 tablets" and substituting therefore
ITEM UNIT OF SALE MAXIMUM
(Bayer's) .. Bottle of 100 tablets $1.12
Made by me the aforesaid Competent Authority this
thirty-first day of December, one thousand nine hundred
F. A. BISHOP,
PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY
BRIDGETOWN, BARBADOS, 3RD JANUARY, 1957
HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
Tuesday 3rd July, 1956
Pursuant to the adjournment the House of
Assembly met at 3 o'clock p.m. today.
His Honour Mr. K. N. R. HUSBANDS (Speaker),
Hon. G. H. ADAMS, C.M.G., Q.C., B A., (Premier),
lion. Dr. H. G. H1. CUMMINS, C.B.E., M.D., C.M,
,Minister of Social Serices) ; Hon. M.E. Cox (Mli-
,ister of Conmunu.icatiof.s, Works a wnid Housig), Mr.
L. E. SMITH, J.P., (Chairman of Co.mmittecs). Hon.
.R. G. MAPP (Minister of Trade Industsry and Laboi. r),
Mr. F. C. GODDARD (Leade.r of the Opposition), Mr.
J. A. HAYNES, B.A., Mr. J. C. MOTTLEY Mr. E. St.A.
HOLDER, Mr. V. B. VAUGtIAN, Hon. C. E. TALM.A,
(iMinister of Agriculure, Lands and Fish cries'),
lMrs. E. E. BOURNE, aPd Mr. J. C. TUDOR, M.A.
Prayers were read.
Mr. SPEAKER: I have the honour to inform
the House that the Mirutes of the last meeting are
not yet ready for confirmation.
Mr. SPEAKER: I have the honour to inform
the House that I have received the Financial Report
of the Accountant General of Barbados for the month
ended 30th April, 1956.
Mr. SPEAKER: I have the honour to inform
the House that I have received from the Other
Place the following.---
The Legislative Council have the honour to re-
turn to the Honourable the House of Assembly a
Bill intituled an Act to acquire certain lands and
rights over lands to be used in connection with the
establishment of an Oceanographic Research Statiot
and for the payment of compensation therefore and
for matters connected therewith which has been
passed with an amendment which is shewn written
on the Bill.
H. A. CUKE
The Legislative Council Chamber,
19th June, 1956.
Mr. SPEAKER: I have the honour to inform
tne House that I have received a letter accompanied
by a Medi(al Certificate from Dr. A. L. Stuart
certifying that the Marshal is unable to attend thi
meeting of the House today.
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Speaker, I am commanded
by His Excellency to lay the following:- "State-
ment of Post Office Advances for payment of Money
Orders to 30th April, 1956."
Hon. R. G. MAPP: Mr. Speaker, I am com-
manded by His Excellency to lay the Report of th,
Public Utilities Board for the year 1955.
Government Notices adrc giuen as follows:-
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Resolution to place the
sum of $1,398 at the disposal of the Governor-in-
Executive Conmmittee to supplement the Estimates
1956-57, Part I Current, as shown in the Sup-
plementary Estimates 1956-57, No. 10 which form
the Schedule to the Resolution.
Hon. Dr. IH. G. H. CUMMINS: Bill to ameni
the Medical Registration Act, 1911.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: Bill to amend the
Customs Tariff Act, 1921.
Hon. R. G. MAPP: Bill to amend the Customs
Tariff Act. 1921.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS. Mr. Speaker, I
bego to give notice of my intention to move the House
into Committee of Supply at its next meeting to
deal with the Money iResolution of which notice has.
-just been given.
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I rise to give notice
uf my intention to move the passing of the following,
I Address to His Excellency the Governor:-
The House of Assembly
His Excellency The Governor
The House of Assembly is of the opinion that.
,ome record should be made of the signing of t le
Order-in-Council setting up the British Caribbean
2. The House therefore respectfully requests
Your Excellency to consult the Gox ernments of the
participating territories with a view to securing their
approval of an entreaty of Her Majesty the Queen.
that Her M4jesty be graciously pleased to permit a
departure from custom by allowing a photographic
record to be made of the signing of the Order-in-
3. The House makes this request feeling certain
that the citizens of the future Dominion should be
able to follow with pride the unfolding chapter of
their history and affectionately associate Her
Majesty with it.
4. The House further suggests that, if the
Governments agree, the Commissioner for the prepa,-
ation of the Federal Organisation be asked to take
the necessary steps to have the request laid with his
humble duty, before Her Majesty at an early oppor-
I am also asking leave to proceed with the pass-
ing of this Address today.
M1r. HOLDER: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
hon. junior member for St. Michael I beg to give
notice of the following question:-
To enquire of the Hon. MVinister of Communications,
Works and Housing:-
Is the Government aware of the fact that there is
in existence certain maps and surveyor's plans, show-
ing a, Public Road along the seashore leading from
Lower Fontabelle, Land's End, Old Burial Ground,
Goodland, Brighton, Spring Gard;en, Danesbuiry,
Walmer Lodge. The Fort, Bats Rock and Prospect
where the above road joined the Black Rock Road'?
2. If the answer to the above question is in the
affirmative, will Government give immediate and
favourable consideration to the repairing and/or
rebuilding of the said roads, so as to provide:-
(a) an additional ancillary road; to and froni
the proposed Deep Water Harbour, and
(b) the restoring of the use of the said roads to
the general public.
BILLS READ A FIRST TIME
Hon. Dr. HI. G. H. CUMVMINS: I beg to move
move that the Bill to amend the Medical Registra-
tion Act, 1911 be read a first time.
Hon. M. E. Cox: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the
affirmative without division.
Hon. Dr. HI. G. H. CTUTI\INS: I beg to mo;e
that the Bill to amend the Customs Tariff Act, 1921
be read a first time.
Hon. lJ. E. COX: 1 beg to second that.
The qvuc.tion was put and resolved in te affirm- -
alive without division.
Hon. R. G. MAPP : I beg to move that the Bill
to amend the Customs Tariff Act, 1921, be read a
Hon. M. E. COX: I beg- to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affirmn-
ative without division.
AMENDMENTS TO OCEANOGRAPHIC BILL
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMVMINS: Mr, Speaker,
I am asking leave to take the amendments from the
Other Place to the Act to acquire certain lands and
rights over lands to be used with the establishment
of the Oceanographic survey and compensation
therefore and matters connected therewith.
Mr. GODDARD: V Kr. Speaker, I have no ob-
jection in facilitating Government in doing the
amendments first, but would certainly like to see a
copy of them because we do not know what they are.
How are we going to accept these amendments with-
out copies? If they can produce copies, I will be
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Other
I'lace has cut out a portion of the section which the
House passed which said that:-
"In determining for the purposes of this section
whether the annual value of any land is diminished
by reason of the exercise or enjoyment of any
scheduled right, and in assessing any compensation
under this section in respect thereto it shall be as-
sumed that the land cannot be restored to the condi-
tion in which it would be put for the exercise or
enjoyment of any scheduled right."
For the purposes of this section, no account
hall be taken of any diminution or depreciation in
value ascribable only to loss of pleasure or amenity.'
From what I read of the debate from the Other
Place and from correspondence in the daily news-
paper it appears that there is some dispute as to
whether the existence or non-existence of sharks is an
amenity. The Other Plaice has cut out this section so
apparently if the existence of sharks makes the land
more valuable they will pay more money for it.
That is all I can see in it.
The question for proceeding with the amiend-
mcent.s from thd Other Place was put. the House divid-
ing as follows-
Ayes: Mr. SMITH. Hon. G. H. ADAMS, Hon. Dr.
CUMMINS; ITon. 1M. E. Cox. Hon. C. E. TALMA, Hon.
R. G. MkTPP. Mrs. BOURNE. Mr. HOLDER. Mr. T, 0.
BRYAN. Mr. VAUGHAN and Mr. J. C. MTOTTLEY-11.
Noes: Mr. CRAWFORD. Mr. TUDOR. Mr. ALLDER,
Mr. HAYNES and Mr. GODIARD-5.
lIon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, as I said, the
Other Place cut out Sub-section 4 of Section 8 which
penks of compensation in respect to scheduled rights.
rThe whole of section 8 deals with compensation and
it speaks of giving it compensation in respect of
which any scheduled right is exercised in the schedule
and it should be payable if the Value of land should
be diminished; the rights being to put poles in the
land outside the Research Station in order to take
lines or cables to the sea and so on.
That is the meaning of scheduled rights. .[t
makes provision for The payment of compensation
to the owners of the land across which you ar e
taking these cables and in which you are ereeting
poles. In one of the sub-sections, it says this:-
"For the purpose of this section, no account
shall be taken of any diminution or depreciation itn
value ascribable only to loss of pleasure or amenity."
That is an ordinary provision which you put
in Bills and conveyance dealing with things of this
sort. The Other Place in its wisdom, (I hope I say
it without offence,) has seen fit to cut that out,
although in normal circumstances, I would suggest
ihat we should refuse to accept an amendment of
this sort because in the circumstanr'es. at that part
-f the Island, it is difficult to say that there can be
any diminution or depreciation in value due to loss
JANUARY~ 3, 1957
JANUARY 3, 1957
of pleasure or amenity. Nobody can bathe at the
North Point; however, if I am in order to say this,
2e3ording to accounts appearing in the Press, the
point was raised as to whether sharks are in that
vicinity or not. Apparently, the owner of this land
is annoyed that it was said in the Other Place that
sharks are there.
Whatever may have operated in the minds of
the Other Place, we have to assume that they have
acted on the highest principles in cutting this sub-
section out. The United States Government has been
asking us since January to treat this matter with
the utmost urgency, and this is now July. There is
no point therefore in my asking this House to reject
the amendment of the Other Place; we have been
prodded by the Colonial Office and T'e United States
Government to get this matter through. For those
seasons I do suggest to hon. members that they
accept this amendment, although it is the sort of
amendment with which in. normal circumstances, we
would not be willing to agree. If the owner of this
land can say "as a. re-ult of my having to sell to
you, I am losing some amenity or some pleasure,"
seeing the rising sun )-r ine setting sun, whichever
it is, the assessors wi.N maKr into consideration what
he may have lost.
I do not think thia, we should waste any more
time in this Chamber wren tums matter, it being so)
simple; I suggest that we should accept this amend-
ment. I therefore beg to move mat this amendment
be now read a first time.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: I beg to second
Mr. GODDARD : I opposed this matter purely
on the principle or our not having on this side of
the House any copies of this amendment. I appreci-
ate very much the urgency with which this matter
should be handled and for that reason, I am quite
prepared to go on with it now. As regards the
encroachments whicn may or may not exist, that
is purely a matter for the Arbitration Court when-
ever they decide to sr,.
Many of us have hetrd about the area being
a shark infested area; the owner of this plantaticn
L-:s stated that in his lifetime, he has never known
anybody to be bitten or attacked by a shark. 1-Le
is entitled to his rights. Whether tmis sub-section
ir left in or not should not make any difference Lo
him. On these grounds and with the urgency w.,tn
which I know the Government of the United ,tate's
expects this matter to be handled, because it has
been delayed for a very long time, I am prepared
to go on with it today. The only reason for my ob-
ec-tion to proceeding with this matter today is that
we should have been given the amendment in a
written form before we come into the House, an t
if that is too late, then let us have the amendmenD
when we sit in the House. We cannot do any business
without any document' in front of us, and expeet
us to refresh our memories of what tool< place n,
the Other Place from the newspaper report.
Mr. ALLDER: A' long as the Government
Bench disrespects other hon- members on this side
cf the Chamber, we have the right to refuse to
handle any matter which is presented to u regard-
less of whoever wants it done expeditiously. TIe'
amendment could have been considered today if th'-
written formality had been adhered to. It is custom-
ary for copies of amendments made by the Other
Place to be presented to hon. members of this Chanm-
ber so that they can be guided; but the Hon. Pre-
mier knows that he has a majority to vote and deal
with the matter today and therefore he proceeded
with it. That is great disrespect to this Chamb.er.
Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member must not
0icrespect the vote of the House.
Mr. ALLDER: I am not doing that. The hnon.
member knows what I have just said, and therefore
he is taking advantage of us in this respect that the
amendment in itself -seems to be very technical and
he cannot claim to be speaking for all the members
of this House. He can make a statement, regardless
of how technical a matter is, and he has his members
to vote for it. As regards other hon. members, a
copy of the amendment is due to us especially since
the Hon. Premier has read it out. Since the Hon.
Premier. has read out the amendment, it seems to
be a highly technical matter; he cannot just read it
out and expect hon. members to follow it. I cannot
follow it, and I hope that I will not be asked to
vote in one way or the other on the matter, because
1 shall abstain from doing so.
Mr. SPEAKER: The Rules of this House do
not allow any hon.- member to abstain from voting
as long as he remain,-; in the House.
Mr. CRAWFORD: I agree in the main with
the arguments advanced by the hon. members on
my left, but I rise to say that this is the first time
that we have had an admission from the Government
Bench that the American Government has had to
prod the British Goverimnent, the Colonial Office and
the Local Governmnent into activity in this matter-
Some weeks ago, when I rose in this House, and
said that the American Government was very appre-
hensive over the delay, and were expressing concern
about it, I was told that that was not true. Now
Today, we have heard for the firs; time thr-t the
American Government has been actually accusing-
4hem of temporizing in this matter and have express-
ed apprehension over the delay or inactivity (or both)
of the Local Governmenet and the British Government
iP this matter.
I repeat what I said on that occasion; the
American Officials in the West Indies, not necessarily
:n Barbados have claimed that they were of the
opinion that the British Government was holding up
the matter. It now appears clear to me. from what
has been said by the Government, that the allega-
iion has been justified even now, because of the
fact that there appeared to be such an unnecessary
delay in bringing the matter to a conclusion.
3 45 p.m.
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, now that the single
copy of this amended Bill which is in possession of
the House is now in my hands, I am in a position
to speak better on it. It is interesting to know (and
! think this ought to be said for the record) that we
have been asked today to consider a matter without
the document and to consider it on the spur of the
I listened to the Hon. Premier recommending
'o the House to accept this amendment and I under-
stood from him, because all he had to say was all
all that was said, that the amendment was of no
great importance and it could be accepted. From a
preliminary glance at iP, he seems to be right but tht
point which I wish to make is that it is quite im-
pertinent to expect us to consider this amendment
with such haste and without even having seen it
before and not to upbraid the Other Place for wast-
ing the time of the Americans by having sent back
this amendment to u- which in my opinion might
*-ell have not been moved.
If the argument is that we must not waste time.
and if the admission by the Hon. Premier himselE
it is not the sort of amendment that there needs to
be any controversy about, then the Other Place need-
e,5 not to have made the amendment, since the
amendment does not effect the main purpose of the
Act so as to prevent the place from being bought..
I think it was was my colleague--the hon. senior
member for St. Lucy who when the Bill was be-
fore us, drew attentio-, just as the Other Place has
done, to this Clause which is the subject of con-
,roversy between the Other Place and us and the
arguments which were used by the Other Place were
Partly used by my colleague. I wish to say that there
is nothing wrong with what they have suggested, but
since this amendment is so slight, they need not
have wasted their time and ours.
I have no objection to this amendment but I wish
to enter this protest. I agree with the hon. junior
member for Christ Church and the hon. senior mem-
ber for St. John that great discourtesy has beer.
siown to this House. I am not reflecting on the votv
which has just been passed. But even on a slight mat-
ter like this, could it not have been found possible,
to type 24 copies of this proposed amendment and
treat the House with the courtesy to which it is
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to
apologise to the Opposition for assuming that in the
case of a simple amendment like this, it was un-
n.ecessary to go to the expense of typing a'nd cyclo-
styling copies. The non senior member for St. John
seemed to suggest to the Government that the Op-
position has no intelligence whatsoever. Let me say
tiat we have in the past have had corrections from
the Other Place in the form of a semi-colon in place
of a comma; we have had corrections as to the year
in which a Bill should date.
I am sorry if I am interrupting the hon. senior
numberr for St. John from reading the Advocatc
Newspaper but inasmuch as he made the point seem-
:rgly against the Government, I am assuring himt
niat the government will not disrespect the protest
vnicil fie mace rei'iaing' the intelligence of thie
Opposition. I want to assure him that so long as our
tnances will stanat the expenditure, in future every
comma will be typed out and handed to the opposi-
This is a simple amendment. We say we must
uot take into consideration what was difficult to
assess. For example, it a man nlas his house facing
east, that means something to him. We say that.
could not be assessed in pounds, shillings rand pence,
therefore that could not be taken into consideration.
The Other Place has said that you must take that in-
to consideration. All I have been able to gather from
the debate in the Other Place through the perusal
of the Press report is that a remark was made that it
was a shark infested area and objection was taken
to that statement. Personally, if I had a place to
sell which was a shark infested place I would boost
it but apparently some people think that such a
place would not raise as much money.
The Opposition have proclaimed to us that,
never mind however simple the amendments to a
Bill may be, we should let.them read them. In future,
we will set out every letter from A to Z so that the
O position will not have any opportunity of saying
that we did not tell them about it. I apologise to the
House for having wasted this time in replying.
The question that the amendment be now read
a first time was put ad resolved in. the affirm;ati h,
On separate motions of Hon. GC. H. ADAMS.
seconded by Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS T i each
iase, the amendment, ; was read a second time ain'1
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
Mr. SPEAKER: The next Order of Day stands
in the name of the Hlon. Minister of Social Services:
to move the House into Committee of Supply to con-
tider the grant of sums of money for the service of
lion. Dr. H. G. H, CUMMINS. Mr. Speaker,
I beg to move that Your Honour do now leave the
Chair and the House go into Committee of Supply.
Hon. M E. COX: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affir
native without division and the House went into
Committee of Supply, Mr. SMITH being in the
Supplementary Estimate No. 9 Transport
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, this Resolu-
tion is divided into six parts. It deals with, first of
all a sum of $110,000 to meet the deficit on Wte
working of the Transport Board from the 24th
August, 1955 until the 30th June, 1956. The second,
item is for the sum of $2,245 to engage the services
rort services of Barbados. The third item is for tihe
sum of $750 to pay an honoraria to certain members
of the staff of the Department of Highways and
Transport who were engaged in the taking over ot
The fourth Item is a revote of $8,795 to which
the House has already agreed to engage the services
of an expert from the United Kingdom to give evi-
dence on behalf of the Government in a case which
will come off very soon regarding some of these
buses. The fifth Item, Mr. Chairman, is the sum
of $25,000 to purchase a Leyland Diesel Bus to seat
44 passengers in order to demonstrate to the public
the type of transportation facilities which Govern-
ment intends to provide for them: and the last item
is for $75,500 to provide accommodation for hous-
ing these units and also for work shops.
Now, Sir, I am well aware of the fact that
the criticism of the Transport service and Transport
Board has more or less gained momentum in these
recent days not because, Mr. Chairman, the service
is so bad or because it is worse than what it used
to be when. owned by private people, but because
Sir, as we know this is Election year: and as such
the Opposition-those who wish us well but on the
other side-have to find something out of which:
they can make capital. In addition, Sir, more
particularly with the local Press, we are all aware
of the fact that the Government can do nothing
that is right where the Advocate newspaper i1
concerned; and this newspaper of course being
interested in big business, would at all times be
opposed to the Government running any sort of
service in this Island. As a matter of fact as you
know, Sir, they always support free enterprise ir-
respective of whether or not the price of the com-
modity is within the purchasing power of the
Now, Mr. Chairman, as regards the other item,
perhaps I should say before going further, how
much I thank the Hon. Leader of the Oppositio,
for sending me a questionnaire in advance in order
that I may be able to prepare the necessary re-
plies: and while I may not make specific reference,
I hope the hon. member will be following me as I
make various points which even indirectly will be
a reply or replies to the questions which he posed.
Now, as regards the $110,000, the operating
deficiency to the 30th June, is $95,000, unlike the
rumnour in the Press that it was half million .dol-
lars and also from the hon. junior member for St
Lucy that the Government had been operating at
a loss of half million dollars and all that nonsense
The operating deficiency up to the 30th of this
JANUAY 3,1957OFFIIAL AZETE 18
month is .),95,00; the other $15,000 is to purchase
.50 new tyres for these buses at an average of $100
per tyre. Now, perhaps if members will follow me,
they will see from the figures I shall give that
while it appears to be a loss, iin actual practice
it is not a loss when you take these points into
consideration; and even if it were a loss, I am
sure that when we took over the buses, when the
Resolution for $30,000 was before this House, the
Government did not at that time give the guarantee
that this service would be operated at a profit evc
though our ultimate aim is that is should operate
at a profit.
Now, Sir, the fact is that the number of buses
taken over, as members will remember was 116.
Now at the time it was agreed by letters betweeea
the Government and former concessionaires that
the Government would take over all serviceable
vehicles and spare parts, though unfortunately for
us-perhaps I should have said it at an earlier
stage-there were some vehicles, I think between
five and six, which were taken over and which have
not up to now proved to be serviceable. I should
-say that because it is common property to quite a
number of people, and the buses are still lying on
the ground and I am not sure if any hand can be
-made of them. They have never worked from the
time they were taken over.
Perhaps at a later stage some investigation
will reveal the true situation.
Now, Mr. Chairman, since we have taken over
these buses, we have had to purchase-
Mr. BARROW : On a point of Order. The
hon. member is revelling in having taken over
buses, but my recollection is that this Tranpsort
Board Bill was dealt with sometime in August
last year, and the buses were handed over to an
independent Statutory Board. I am therefore ask-
ing for a Ruling Mr. Chairman. I presume that
you are still the Chairman of Committees aind not
the hon. senior member for St. Joseph whom I wish
would keep quiet. I am asking whether the hon.
senior member for St. Michael took over the buses
or whether the Act which provides for the estab-
lishment of a Transport Board has been repealed
and the buses are now in his custody and possession.
Hon. M. E. COX: That is not a point of
Order. The hon. member is only interrupting me.
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, you will
make your own Ruling in the fulness of time. My
point is that these two Pesolutionls are out of Or-
der because there is no authority under any Act
for bringing forward either of them. If you scru-
tinize the Transport Board Act, you will see that
an independent Statutory Authority was set up
with powers to borrow money, to raise loans and
to look after matters of tfat kind. It is not a
Government Department; it is an inciepeendent
Statutory Board, so much so that His Honour the
Speaker made Rulings on two separate occasions
that even questions concerning the running of this
Board were out of order at the time when the ques-
tions were submitted.
Hon. M. E. COX : The hon. member is only
Mr. BARROW: I am explaining the point of
Order on which I have risen, and if you experience
any difficulty, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that you
send for His Honour the Speaker to Rule as to
whether these Resolutions are not out of order.
There is no authorisation for them. We cannot take
money out of the Treasury unless there is some
Statutory Authority enabling us to do it; that is
an elementary principle. If none of the members
over there understands that, it is regrettable. I
hope that Your Honour has grasped my point; it
would be very interesting to hear the hon. mem-
ber say that he has taken over the buses; only the
Transport Board Act could give the right to take
over the buses. You cannot get money out of the
JTreasury, unless a Bill is passed, to put a shelter
over these buses at this late stage; if the hon. mem-
ber reads the Transport Board Act and the Local
Loan Act, he will see that there is no Statutory
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Has it ever been said
in 300 years what the hon. member has just said?
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, if you want
the hon. member to speak for you, you must invite
him to do so.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member is not
speaking for me.
Mr. BARR.OW: It sounds so.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: The hon. member and
others have raised the point with His Honour the
Speaker as to whether hon. members cannot speak
on a point of Order. However, to say that the
Crown cannot ask for money is sheer nonsense, and
I am amazed that even the hon. member has wasted
our time in raising this point:
Mr. BARROW: I am not suggesting that the
Crown cannot ask for money. I am saying that
they cannot come into the House with this Resolu-
tion because there is no Statutory Authority for
it. Of course, the Constitution of Barbados is flexi-
ble in the hands of the hon. senior member for St.
Joseph; we know that he can do anything which he
wants done. There is a way to do this thing, but
this is not the way to do it. I hope hat the hon.
member who expurgates the debates of this House
does not eradicate from the records the interesting
statements now made by the hoin. senior member
for St. Joseph; I would like the debate on this
Resolution to be another one to remain on the re-
cords for the benefit of posterity.
M1r. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman,
Mr. CHAIRMAN: On what is the hon.
member speaking ?
Mr. CRAWFORD: Obviously, on a poi-t of
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member must say
Mr. CRAWFORD: I wish to enauire since
when has the Crown began running these buses.
We, in this Legislature, created a Transport Board,
as a separate entity, to run the buses. That Board
is empowered to borrow money, to acquire property
and to do anything it likes with the buses under
its control. If the Board wants money now, they
have to raise it by way of a loan from Government
or from any other source; but the Government can-
not now borrow money to run these buses. The
Transport Board is a separate entity which was
formed to deal with the entire question of Trans-
port. Before we had a Transport Board, one could
nnders'tand the Government asking for any amount
to make an advance for the operation of those
buses; but the moment you establish a separate
entity to deal with this matter, the Government
has Lno power to do what they are now doing. What
the hon. senior member for St. Joseph has said is
by no means an answer to the question raised by
the hon. senior member for St. George.
Hon. G. IT. ADAMS: The hon. member should
read the Resolution. On the Estimates of this
Country today, there is a Head dealing with Trans-
port; the amount which has been voted under this
Head has not proved to be enough, and this Reso-
Lution seeks to increase the amount which we have
JAN-UARY~ 37 19571
1C 9fL~ OFIII rZET ,15
already voted. Those hon. members should pay
the Committee the compliment of reading what is
before them; all this supplementary estimate asks
is to make more money available for this purpose.
Do we need to waste any more time with this al-
leged point of Order.' But they have been filibus-
tering from 4 o'clock, that is all that it m'ons.
Mr. TUDOR: A Ruling has bexn sought o:
you, Mr. Chairman, and I think it should be givln
before we proceed with this matter. [ion. G- 11i
ADAMS': This is purely filibustering; we will sit
here until morning, wa are not afraid.! [Mr. CRA W-
FORD: We will sit here until next week.1 Thern
aile two Resolutionis before us today, and the Hon.0
Minister did not indicate to us whether he is dealing
with one or the other, or with both of them. Ioeu
will notice, Mr. Chairman, that that is what has estab.
lished the point of Order. Although, there are two
distinct Resoutions, the Hon. Minister did not say
with which of them he was dealing. At the end of
these Resolutions, we read these words:-
"Resolvl.d that His Excellency the Governor l.e,
,:sked to assent and take the necessary steps to give
effect to this Resolution.''
I take the preliminary objection to the coupli(m'
of these two Resolutions. The first Resolution, Mr.
Chairman, is embodied in the other, and the second
one must have an Act authorising the loan. You know
from your own experience that the Appropriation
Set and the Resolutions on the Estimates in resperl.
of Capital Expenditure are not done together. That
is why we are seeking a Ruling in this matter.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, The Hon.
AMinister needs not show his nervousness like that.
What he must do is to answer the questions put to
him if he wants the debate to proceed. What I want
to know is if the Crown can come in here with a 6im1
lar resolution for something in respect of tihe Natu-
ral Gas Corporation. That Corporation is also a sep-
arate entity set, up to control natural gas in the
colony. It has a similar Board to, that of the Trans-
port Board. Both Boards were set up by similar Ueg
While it is true that in respect of the expenses
as regards the Transport Board a Resolution was
brought down to grant this money before the Board
was set up, I am not a t all satisfied in my mind that
the Government is entitled to seek for funds as it is
today in respect of the operation of the Transport
There are one of two items in the Resolutiotn,
tuch as "Legal Expenses"' which were involved in
the take over, and the "HIonoraria" for remunerat-
ing the Mechanie-Engineers who worked overtime in
putting the buses in order before the Board was
established, whidh the Government can afford to
come here for those funds under a Shipplementary
Resolution; but if they are entitled to come in this
fashion, well then, if the Natural Gas Corporation
wants something all it fhas to do is to tell the Gov-
ernment that it wants more money. I am not at all
satisfied in mind that the Crown is entitled to ask
for what the I-Ion. Minister wants for this Trans-
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, I was saying-
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, for what is
the (hon. member bobbing up and down every min-
Mr. CHAIRMAN: (to the hon. junior member
for St. Lucy) Are you asking a question ?
Mr. TUDOR: Your ruling has been asked on
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The ruling which, I have be-
fore me is the Addendum to the Resolution which
reads as follows: "This Resolution is to authorise the
supplementary provision included in the Supple-
mentary Estimates, 1956-57, No. 9."
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman, with great respect
ro you, when a member of the Committee asks you
for a ruling, he means ,a ruling as regards the pro-
cedural question which is involved. That has nothing
to do with whether Government should spend money
or not; that is something different. We are asking
you to say whether this method is a correct one.
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, I was saying.
;.that there was quite a considerable lot of expenses
for the short time the buses have been operated by
the Transport Board and as I was pointing out o
the Committee, we have had to purchase over the last
ten months 341 tyres which amount to $4,920.
Mr. BARRO Mr. Chairman, i rise on a
point of Order.
HIon. M. E. COX: We have also had to pur-
Mr. ('CHAIRIAN. Has the hon. senior member
.or St. George risen on a point of Order?
Mr. BARROW: This Chamber has a long an I
Si'lustrious history of Parliamentary and constitu-
tional Government behind it and I do not think that
one should flout all the well established rules, of pro
.edure. I am not dealing with the issue involved but
I do say it is in your favour to give a ruling on the
Matter. I think the attempt by the hon. senior mem-
her for St. Michael is only one to subvert the well
established authority of the Chair.
Mr. Chairman, if you do -not feel at this stage
competentt to give a ruling on the matter, I suggest
that you send for Mr. Speaker. It would not be any
reflection on your ability :but I am submitting that
it is a serious matter on which you are questioned
and one on which you should give a ruling.
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, I was saying:
that we have had to purchase 106 batteries at a cost.
of $4,770. We have had. also to purchase 43 cylinder
heads at a cost of $5,160. We have had also to put--
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman,-
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member give
me a chance and wait?
Mr. CRAWFORD: It is common courtesy to.
the Chair, if the Chair is endeavouring to resolve a
matter, that both sides of the House keep quiet. Thim
hon. senior member for St. Michael should refrain-
fromn proceeding with the matter while the Chair
endeavouring to resolve the matter.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Reading Clause 15 of the
Transport Act, 1955, it says that the Board may.
with the approval of the Governor-in-Executive Corm
mittee, borrow by way of loan, overdraft or other-
vwise, such sums as the Board may require for meet-
ing their obligations or discharging their functions'
Sander this Act. I take it that the money which they
had was not sufficient and they are asking for a sup-
plementary vote, therefore I rule that this Resolution
:. in order.
VOICES: No, No.
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, I was saying
Mr. CRAWFORD Mr. Chairman, I rise on a
point of Order.
lHon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, I was say-
ing Sir, that we have .
Mr. CRAWFORD: On a poih:t o order,
Mr. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order,
I rule the hon. member out of order.
. JANLTARY 3. 1957
JANUARY 3, 1957 OFFICIAL GAZETTE 191
MUr. CRAWFORD: I am asking you to en-
lighten my ignorance on the paragraph you read as
"The Board may with the approval of the
Governorgrn-Executivq, borrow by way odE loan
overdraft or otherwise, such sums as the Board may
require for meeting the obligations or di.sciarging
.their functions under this Act."
What have we got before us today to shov
!that the Board is borrowing money?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: This is a Supplementary
Resolution and the Addendum tells you. I am go-
ing by the Addendum which is in front of me.
This Resolution is to authorise the Supplementary
provision included in the 'Supplementary Estimates.
If you are not going to authorise it, you may say so.
Mr. CRAWFORD: May I submit, Sir, that
,any person in the Government offices can write an
Addendum. Any clerk can write an Addendum,
and what was done, which is the burden of our
,actions today, is that the Transport Board Act was
sanctioned by the legislature last year.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I have already made my
Mr. CRAWFORD: May I submit, Mr. Chair-
man, that your ruling is a misinterpretation of the
Act and I would like to .
Mr. CIHAIRMAN: I rule the hon. member
out of order as far as the explanation is concerned
-and I am asking the Hon. Minister in charge to
continue. The hon. senior member for St. Philip
will take his seat.
Hon. M. E. COX: Now, Sir, I was pointing
out just now that we had to purchase ..
Mr. CRAWFORD,: May I repectfully sub-
mit that the Speaker be called upon to rule one way
or another because 7, our interpretation is incorrect.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am ruling the hon. mem
ber out of order.
Hon. M. E. COX: I was saying, Sir, that
we have had to purchase 106 batteries which cost
$4,770, 43 cylinder heads $5,160, 37 clutch discs
$814, 32 clutch pressure-plates $1,305, 8 crank
shafts $1,200 4 clutch housing $140, 14 oil filters
$88, 6 blocks $1,800, differential crown wheels
10 of these $1,100, nine manifolds $360. gear-
boxes complete $1,500, transmission gears $860,
miscellaneous small parts $5,000 that amounts to
$64,947. This in a sense may be regarded as capital
Now, as I pointed out earlier, the deficit on the
working of the Board up to the 30th of last month
is $95,000; the figures quoted above represent a sum
of alone $64,947. Now, we go on further, Mr. Chair-
man. As regards the wages: as you know from the
time Government took over the buses-as a matter
of fact before the buses were actually taken over
the Government agreed to an overall increase of
wages, and as soon as they were taken over, in-
creased wages were paid. The average wages paid
to conductors and drivers when employed by former
employers were $4.18 per day. The Government
rate is $5.28 per day, an increase of 24%; so, Sir,
at the end of last month, the total wages paid to
drivers and conductors were $220,800-that is, at
the new rate-and that is an increase of what they
used to get under former employers of $53,000.
Now, as regards inspectors, they used to get
$2.20 per day. The Government pays them $3.20
per day, an increase of approximately 45% and that
brings the total of wages paid to inspectors up to,
last month, to $35,561-an increase of $15,503 over
the old rates; so that alone, Mr. Chairman, when you
add these increases-and we have also paid mechan-
ics $89,722 up to the end of last month-the increase
to drivers and conductors and the increases to in-
spectors, you will see, Sir, alone represent $68,503;
so when you add $68,503 to the $64,947 which I
have already mentioned you will see that that repre-
sents $133.450. I shall invite any member of this
House-or all the members if they so desire-to go
over to the Board and check for themselves and
see that there are in stock 106 dead batteries which
were taken over with these buses, and as I said,
all the old parts taken out of the buses. They can
go and see them in the store house of no use, tyres
included. So although it appears, Mr. Chairman,
that the loss is great, you will see from the increase
in wages, and as a matter of fact, the increase of
wages alone could offset the deficit which here ap-
pears; that is, in so far as the $110,000 is concerned.
i should mention that some Firms axre eagerly
waiting on this money; the position is not as bad as
has been represented in some sections of the Press;
and when the matter was drawn to the Government's
attention, the Government took immediate steps to get
money in order to pay off the outstanding accounts
As regards Item No. 2, we have had various cor-
respondence with people who are very well acquaint-
ed with the running of Transport. Some time ago,
Mr. James from Jamaica who runs the British Elec-
tric Traction Company there, came here and dis-
cussed the question of the operation of the bus ser-
vice in this Island, and he told us that the Diesel
Motor were very good motors. They seat 44 people
and there is standing accommodation for as many as
another 40 persons. After we had discussions with
Mr. James, another gentleman called Mr. Gibbons,
who is the Licensing Authority in Trinidad, also'
passed through here a.nd gave us a lot of valuable
information as to how the bus service is being open-
ated in Trinidad. As hon. members know, the Trin-
idad transport service used to be run by the Govern-
ment and they lost over $1 million a year when they
were operating their service, whereas this service only
shows a deficit of $95,000. [Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY:
That is a first-class example.] That service was after-
wards given to private Concessionaires, and Mr.
Gibbons takes great care to see that the Concession-
uires run the buses in an up to date manner, and
that the profits made are not, as is usually done in
the majority of cases in this Island, put into property
but that the profits or quite a considerable part of
them are ploughed back into the Transport service,
thereby providing 'for an adequate and up-to-date
service. M1r. Gibbons inspects their books, way-bills
and everything else, and judging from what he has
told us, I can see that there is almost a cast-iron
system obtaining in Trinidad today. We have dis-
cussed with him the possibility of his coming here
and giving us some of his experience, and he has
agreed to do so. He is now in the United Kingdom
and hopes to pass through here sometime around the
b5th of August; if this Resolution is passed, as 1
have no doubt it will be passed, Mr. Gibbons will be
bere to assist us in this matter of the re-organisation
of the Transport services.
Since the Concessionaires were granted their
concessions-I think it was in 1936 or 1939-quite a
lot of areas have been built up, and it is time that
we should have a re-distribution of the routes to fall
in line with providing the necessary Transport facil-
ities in respect of those areas which have been re-
cently built up.
As regards Item No. 3, the amount of $750.001 i
required to pay honoraria to some members of the
staff of the Highways & Transport Department who
worked overtime during this take-over of the buses.
JAN UARYp 3 1957
192 OF-CIA GAZTT J-Y3,15
lion. members will remember that quite a few ol
these people, even the Stenographer-'rypibss, worked
overtime during this take over, and in the circum-
stances, it was agreed to pay them honoraria to the
zune of $750.00 to these people who did this work
during this time.
The other Item under this Head is for the sum
of $8,795 in respect of legal expenses. As I have
already said the amount of this Item has already
been voted by this House, and therefore I need not
repeat what was said then. I shall only remind
hon. members that the case is expected to commence
sometime early next month or rather the middle ot
next month, and it is necessary to have this money
in order to get a Queen's .Counsel. to appear on
behalf of the Government.
Under the Head Capital Expenditure, it is pro-
posed that we purchase a 44 Seater Diesel bus similar
to those which are in operation in Trinidad and
Jamaica. As I said just now, we were told by Mr.
James and Mr. Gibbons that it is a waste of time to
run these gasolene motors. We have been told that
Ihese Diesel Motor buses are sturdy and strong anac
they have a good life of at least 10 years, and the
t ost of one of these buses is $25,000. As soon as this
Resolution has been passed, the order for this bus
will be placed.
As I have said, of the buses which were taken
over, many of them had already passed the ten-year
limit; some of them have been in existence since
1939. It is not at all surprising to me that if you
read the comments made in. the Press, it would
appear is if these buses had deteriorated in the last
8 or 10 months more so than they had deteriorated
within the last 10 years or so. The buses which were
taken over have been twice written off. From the
comments made in the Press, for example, quite re-
cently the head lines in the Press showed that the
back of a bus had dropped off; well, if the back of!
the bus dropped off, when the (Govermnmen. took it
over, the back was nearly off. [Laugliter]. We could
not have taken over a good bus, and then it deterio -
ated to that extent in 9 months! The fact is that this
particular bus skiddeda on the wet road in Locust
Hall Hill, struck a bridge and a part of the upright
at the back of the bus broke and fell; that is what
happened. Of course, you will hear any sort of thing
now, especially from the hon. junior member for
St. Lucy who was hoping to get a debate; his little
heart will now come down since. the debate on the
question of Government policy in relation to these
buses has started.
I have a brochure here (which I want to show
to hon. members) showing the type of bus to which
I have referred and which the Transport Board is
hoping to put into operation in a short space of time.
Now, Sir, I come to Item 6. That is for the
sum of $75,500 to provide accommodation for these
buses. As we read in the newspapers some time ago
(although I pay very little attention to what they
have to say) we saw that it was suggested that we
provide quarters for these buses. That was a sug-
gestion which was made almost from the time we
took them over. Sir, if you remember, when the Reso-
lution for $30,000 was before the House, it was point-
ed out then that the Government was prepared to
keep one or two of the routes which were taken over
when the final decision was made. It will also be
remembered that, while some people said (or will
have people to believe) that we were anxious to take
over the buses, that was not the case. I think the
public ought to know that it was not a question of
Government being desirous of taking over the buses
but rather that the Government acted in order toc
keep the cost of living down, especially so for the
poorer people of this Island. The Government said
then, that it was not prepared to increase the bus
fares because it took into consideration the large
number of school children who were transported
daily from all parts of the country to and from
Bridgetown and that being so, if the bus fares
were increased at the time, it would cause a great
narasnip on the parents of those children to Ree1,
them in school. As an alternative, which you will
remember Mr. Chairman, the Governmenut offered to
give a rebate of 15% en gasolene to the concession-
aires and as you knew, the concessioai'e::; turned
down that of.er. They said that they wanted 50>.,
and if they were not given that, they were willing
that the Government purchase the buses. As a result,.
the Government was faced with no alternative under
ihe circumstances than to accept th, off ofof taking
over the buses; so the Government took over the buses.
As was pointed out already, and as is pointed
out in the questionnaire submitted by the Hon. Leader
of the Opposition, the G-overnment before taking over
the buses called for tenders for concessions to
operate the various routes, and about eight persons
applied. I said then, and I will say again, that it
.. as never the intention of the Government to operate
all the routes taken oxer. That is still the policy of
the Government. As I have said already, there are
some people who have applied for concessions whose
applications still hold good today, but the Govern-
ment could nof release those buses because of the
fact that we do not know how much these buses are
ooing to cost. As you know, Sir, nothing has been
decided yet; therefore, we cannot take the buses and
give them to people without first knowing hew much
will these buses cost. Neither do I believe anybody
would be so stupid as to take them over without
knowing what they wifi cost. That is the reason why
no firm agreement has been reached, so far as thes.t
buses are concerned.
To all this must -o added that we had a hurri-
cane on us almost simultaneously with the taking-
over of these buses, and it meant that all our forces
had to be concentrated on the hurricane. We also
had at the time damage done to the buses as a result
of the hurricane and we had to send many of those-
mnits to the various garages to be repaired; and
doubtless, at some of the very garages which wer.
owned by the people from whom we had taken over
these buses. Of course, as in all cases where Govern-
ment is concerned, whenever Government wants any.
thing, it must pay through its teeth for it; and s"
we had to pay through our teeth for the repairs
done to those buses at the various garages.
The question will also be raised again, as I saw
it in the Press: why not provide shelters for these
buses. I think members of the Opposition, even when
we brought down a Resolution for money to finis-i
Government Headquarters and to start the new Bay
Street Boy's School, shouted loudly that we should
do nothing but concentrate all our forces on the
repairs to houses and rehabilitation of the peopleI
who suffered in the hurricane. I'- fact all our efforts-
were concentrated on That.
We read regularly that even passengers are coml-
plaining of the bus service which Government Ji
now running. As long ao one refuses to disclose one's
name, that can be taken to mean a former concession-
aire, or a Broad Street merchant who does not travel
in these buses. As long as a nom de plume is used.
that can be taken to mean anybody. On the question
of increasing bus fares, you read that somebody is
Saying "why will you not increase bus fares? If
you increase bus fares all this trouble would cease."
OFF'"ICIAL G ~tAZEI~TTE
JA1Nuaizu 3, 19577
JANAR -3 197OFC-1 AET 9
I would not swallow that and the reason why I
would not swallow that is because the concession -
-aires were not talking of increasing their fleet; they
were saying that their operational expenses were
more than their revenue, and therefore they wanted
so much as would square them and give them a little
profit. That is what they were saying.
Now, Sir, just to show you when you hear and
read certain things that they are not always accurate,
I will say this. The Committee knows when we had
taken over the buses, that among them were ten,
buses of the Progressive Bus Company. Two weeks
after those buses were taken over, the owner wrote
to the Government asking whether it would be good
enough to return those, buses to him. Of course, the
.answer was "No". It went on like that for some
time, until the owner made representation stating
1hat he was quite happy and contented with what
his profits were before the take-over. Of course, I
did not believe that and I doubt whether anybody
will. He did say that he was making a very good
profit and that he was misled by the hon. junior
member for St. James; therefore, he found himself
in that "going down." He appealed to the Govern-
ment to allow him to have back his buses.
Well, eventually around May last we decided
to return his buses after he made his final plea; and
those buses were returned with what would be re-
garded as a status quo, We said, "here they are; you
take then back as they are; the Government is freed
from any liability present or future;" and these
buses were handed back to the Progressive Bus Com-
pany with a document sealed and signed: the Gov--
-rnment is freed from any liability now or in th,.
future. That was the condition under which the buses
were given back to Mr Birch. Not a cent was paid.
We handed them back just as they were with the
understanding that if you want them back just as
they are, and he willingly and gladly took them 12
o'clock in the night, and he was very glad to get;
them back in his garage, and I know he is happy and
he can now smoke his cigar again. Now, if that was
so, if these buses were losing all that money, as we
were told, I am sure that this gentleman would not
have taken back his buses in the condition in, which
they were after they had been on our possession for
over eight months. At least he would have said,
"You should give me something, depreciation or
something for the months you had them; but that
was not the case at all. These buses were taken back
as they were from the Government with a signed
document, as I said, fr seeing us from any present or
future liability. That, in my opinion, is evidence to
prove that it is not true to say that these buses were
operating at a loss or at least the majority of them
-and again I repeat we find that other concession-
aires are still operating their routes. There were
fourteen concessionaires; eight gave up their buses
and six kept theirs; and the return of the concession
above referred to make a total of seven privately run,
from whom we have I heard no further complaints.
Now again, as you will remember, Sir, in the Press,
this question of a committee recommending an in-
crease in fares is always looming up and people
are inclined -some people rather-to say that if lc.
increase had been given by the Government, we
would not be in what they consider a quandary. But
I would like this to be clearly understood; we are in
,no quandary. The buses we have today-or at least
the majority of them-are in far better condition
than they were immediately before they were taken
over by Government. I now refer a paragraph which
was written appears in the report of the very Corn
mimsioners appointed to enquire into the bus fares
at the time--this was on the 24th June, 1955-and
this'is what they said:
"In the course of this enquiry we found our.
selves at some disadvantage in that adequate statis-
tical information was -not available from many con-
cessionaires to enable us to make a proper comparison
and reliable estimates For example, important in.
formation such as the number of passengers carried,
mileage covered, etc. was lacking in many cases."
And what is the position ? They said, however, in
as much as these fares were fixed in 1936 or 1939,
you should give an increase and also make it incum-
bent upon them to provide new and better units.
That is what the Commissioners said then, and as I
was saying, Mr. Chairman, the case put forward L y
the concessionaires wa,; never formed on the grounds
of providing units to increase their existing fleets.
I have quoted the Progressive Co. 's case as an in-
stance to show you that while on the one hand you get
people clamouring for an increase and saying if you
had only increased the fare by one cent Government
would not have making adequate profits; although
he was one who protested and joined the others in
giving up the buses. The buses are running again
under his supervision and as I said he seems to be
a happy man. I think, Sir, I have dealt with those
points set out in the Resolution., and I repeat I arn
cure now that hon. members here know the true
position, even though they would be quite willing at
all times and more particularly on this occasion to
attack the Minister of Transport, I am sure that they
will see that the picture is far different from what
the public was led to believe. They will see, as I said,
that while you have an operating deficit of $95,000
to the end of last month, the causes or reasons for
that deficit are clear ir that the additional wages
paid to drivers, conductors and inspectors are ap-
5 05 p.m.
These are wages in excess of what these people
used to get when they were working with the private
employers. As I have already pointed out, we have
had to purchase batteries and other accessories which
.an be regarded as capital, and at least they can last
for another 8 months or even a year: the guaranteed
life of a battery is a year. As I said a while ago, we
have had to supply 106 new batteries; we also had
to buy 341 new tyres All these things had to be in-
stalled in these buses so as to make them serviceable
:or the road.
Mr. Chairman, I think I have dealt with all the
points which are likely to arise. I do not know if I
have answered all that has been asked by the hon.
junior member for Christ Church as to the policy
of the Government with regard to the Transport
service of this Island. The policy of the Government
is to dispose of some units which we now own as soon
as the necessary arrangements can be made, and to
operate the remainder It may bLe that after a few
years a complete taking over of the Transport ser-
vice by Government will take place. That is the Gov-
The hon. member asked how many Concessions
Nere operating on the 10th August. 1955? There
were 14;-the Government took over 8 of them. One has
been returned, which leaves us with 7, and a total
cf 106 buses. The hon. member went further and
asked for what purpose did the Government take
over the buses? Well, the purpose is obvious; the buses
wvere taken over for the purpose of carrying on the
Transport service of the Island which the former con-
cessionaires told us they were not prepared to carry on
after the 22nd August. 1955. As to the question of
taking over these buses with a view to giving them
to new people, that was not so.-I have already an
JANUARY 31 19;'')'
_~ 19 OFICA GAET J-a 3, 195
swered the question about advertising for new Con,--
cessionaires; we have received 8 tenders: some of
which are still good today. No new concessions were
granted; those who carried on outside of the Govern-
ment, carried on iuder the old conditions.
Mr. BARROW: On a point of Order. I should
like to know under what Act of Parliament is this
Hon. M. E. COX: The hon. junior member for
Christ Church asked whether-
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman. I am enlquiriug
under what Act of Parliament is this Resolution
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I will find out from the
Clerk and let the hon. member know.
Hon. M. E. COX: The answer to the question.
also asked by the hon. junior member for Christ
Church as to whether the Government has been
keeping separate accounts in respect of each units
which we took over. On the question of what profits
profits and or losses were made in respect of each
concession retained, is "yes. We have been keeping
separate accounts in respect of each lot of units
which we took over. On the question of what profits
and/or losses were made in respect of each con-
cession retained, the answer has already been
riven, because I said that there was a deficit of.
$95,000 up to the middle of last month.
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Chairman.-
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, on a point olf
Order. I wanted to know under what Act of Parlia-
ment this expenditure of funds from the Public
Treasury has been authorised. I think that the Ad-
dendum to this Resolation is very misleading, and(
it has misled you. The Addendum says this:-
"This Resolution is to authorise the Supplemn-
tary provision included in the Supplementary Esti-
mates, 1956-57, No. 9.
I should like to say that there is no Supplemen-
tary Resolution No. 9 of the 1956-57 Estimates; tni.
Resolution is Resolution No. 9 itself. I think it is
most dishonest of the Civil Servants perhaps 1I
should withdraw the words "Civil Servants" because
we know who are *be hewers of wood and the
drawers of water. but it is misleading to draw uri
the Resolution in this way. There is no such Head
in the Appropriation Act as Head XXXVI: onec,
the Appropriation Act has been passed. my submn;-
sion is that you can only bring in a Supplementary
Resolution under what appears as a Head in the,
Act. to take money out of the Treasury by way of
a Resolution. Unless there.is something to hang over
it, there is nothing to prevent the hon. member from
appropriating money to himself.
Hon. M. E. COX Mr. Chairman, I strongly
object to that statement. The hon. member with his
twisted mentality is always giving a bad impression,
of other people.
Mr. BARROW: Well. there is nothing to pre-
vent him from giving the money to me. then
[Laughter]. I am saying that there is no Act of
Parliament authorising this expenditure at all. This
is a very serious business.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Leader of th.
House is going to move the adjournment of the,
House at this stage, anrd at the same time, I will get
your point clarified. On re-assembling, I will be able
to tell you something about the matter. [MEMBERS
That is alright.1
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: Mr. Chairman.
I beg to move that you do now report progress avnd
vsk for leave for the Committee to sit again.
Mrs. BOURNE: I beg to second that.
The motion being put and carried nen. con. the
Chairman reported progress and Mr. Speaker re.
sumed the Chair and reportedly accordingly.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: Mr. Speaker, I
beg to move that this House do now adjourn for
half an hour.
Mr. CRAWFORD: On the motion for the ad-
Mr. SPEAKER: Are you seconding that
Mr. CRAWFORD: Yes Sir. Earlier in the
debate, which was reported to you by Mr. Chairman
I was asked to take my seat when I requested a
ruling from the Chairman on the legality of the pro-
cedure as to the Resolution before the House. Now,
Sir, I am not attempting to question the ruling of
the Chair but I am asking Your Honour to be so
good as to enlighten the House as to the correctness
of the proceedings as regards the Resolution before
us for $121,790. The Resolution is divided into two
parts (1) Part I, Current Head xxxvi (New)-
Transport and (2) Part II, Capital A-Loan Funds,
My first point, Mr. Speaker, is that on reference
to the Estimates of Expenditure for the current year
there is no Head XXXVI; therefore there could not
iave been any expenditure involved under this Heal
when we passed the Appropriation Bill. Secondly,
Sir, the second part of the Resolution Part II,
Capital calling for Capital expenditure to be
raised from Loan Funds is wanted for the newly
created Transport Authority. The House has been
told that under Section 15 of the Transport Act,
1955, which sets up a Transport Board that the
Board may, with the approval of the Governor-inm
Executive Committee borrow by way of loan, over-
draft or otherwise, such sums as the Board may
require for meeting their obligations or discharging
their functions under this Act.
I would like to say in passing that this Section,
-o which the Committee was referred by the Chair
is establishing a local authority under which Govern-
ment is providing it with money by way of this
AResolution. Am I to understand under the Section
of the Act giving the- Board approval to borrow
money that it necessarily can be interpreted to mean
that the Government is entitled to come in here aniI
Ivance money from the Public Treasury to tnm
newly constituted Board without any reference o:
application by the Board itself for such a loan or
without any legal sanction?
I respectfully submit, not merely to enlighten
myself but in the interest of maintaining the tradi-
tionally correct procedure which this House always
upheld and in the interest of the maintenance o,
the part of Your Horour of the right procedure
being in operation at all times, and also or the desire
that the Other Place may noT regard us as not
knImowing what we are doing arid the House of Assem-
bly to be ridiculed ii_ public, that outr Honour
should give (and rather it is your boundened duty to
give) a clear ruling to the House on this issue.
Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member who has
just spoken began by saying that he was not at-
tempting to question the ruling of the Chairman.
He then concluded by asking me to give a ruling.
Now, I would just like to read from May a
Parliamentary Practice on page 235 (fifteenth ecti
tion) for the benefit of hon. members wno very fre-
quently call for the assistance of Mr. Speaker, when
the affairs of the Committee are being conducted
JANUA'RY 3,' 19571
JANUARY 3, 1957 OFFICIAL GAZETTE 195
under the Chairman of Committees. That practice
is becoming very frequent in this House and there
is no validity whatsoever for it. Holn. members
must understand that the Chairman of Committees
has as much power when he is in the Chair as Mr.
Speaker, and there is no question of an appeal
from the ruling of the Chairman of Committees to
The passage from page 235 of May's which i
want to read to you is as follows:-
"The opinion of the Speaker cannot be sought
in the House about ainy matter arising or likely to
arise in a Committee."
If hon. members wanted Mr. Speaker's opin-
ion as to what they may consider as an irregularity
or ot a happening in Committee, there is another
provision in May's whereby they can go to him ana
get a private opinion~. In other words, this is not
like a Court of Appeal where you appeal from the
Chairman, of Committees to the Speaker.
The question that the House do now stand ad-
journ for half an hour was put and resolved in the
affirmative without division and Mr. Speaker ad-
journed the House accordingly.
Mr. F. E. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, before you
begin the business of the House, I would like to ask
the questions which I intended asking earlier.
There being no objection leave was granted the
Ihon. memb er.
Mr. F. E. MILLER: I beg to give notice of tne
following questions:-To enquire of the Hion. Min-
ister of Communications, Works & Housing:-
Will the Hon. Minister consider the necessity
ef having both the half-hour and hour 'bus service
now operating on the Ellerton, Drax Hall route,
passing through East Layne, (Blenman's Hill) St.
George, (instead of having the hour bus pass through
Old Works Hill) so as to improve the transport facil-
ities in the area
2. Will the Minister also consider taking steps
to have both the in and out night trips on, this par-
ticular route extended on Sundays and week days at
least an hour or two later?
3. Will the Minister exploit the possibilities of
a reduction on the fares of school-children using' the
said route, as is done on other routes ?
To enauire of the Hon. Minister of Communications,
Works and Housing :
Will the Hon. Minister consider the installation
cf standposts in the following districts in St.
(1m Cole Hole
(2 "coCross Roads" South District
(.f "Blenman's Hill'" llerton
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY C'TD.
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMMINS: Mr. Speaker,
the Chairman of Committees will be a little late; and
I am going to move that the hon. senior member for
St. Andrew be Chairman of Committees pro tern.
Hon. M. E. COX: I beg to second that.
The qucst ion was put and resolved in the affirm-
alive without division.
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, before the House
resumes Committee, I would like to ask Your Honoumi
whether the Resolution under which we are going to
resume Committee is in order. Some time in Auustu
last year we passed a vote for $30,000 for the Gov-
ernor-in-Exeeutive Committee to pay for gasoc:',:,
wages a'nd for taking over the buses for a period O.
two weeks. Since that time no money Resolution
under the Act of Parliament has been before this
Hi-ouse. lLater on, we said the Transport Board should
pave full power to borrow money or to raise loans as
they thought fit, and passed over the buses which
Lie Government had taken over to the Transport
Board, which is in the same position, as let us say,
a limited liability or any other kind of corporation
except one created by Statute. In the Resolution
which is before the House, Mr. Speaker, it speaks
about the sum of $120,729 to be granted from the
1'ublic Treasury and placed at the disposal of the
Governor-in-Executive Committee to supplement the
Estimates 1956/57 Part I Current ais shown in the
Supplementary Estimates 1956/57, No. 9 which forms
the schedule to this Resolution; and for Your Hoa-
our's information, on the vote which has already
probably been drawn to Your Honour's attention,
there is no such Supplementary Resolution No. 9
other than the one presently engaging the attention
ef the House. It would appear as merely carrying
out something which we had already voted, where-
upon we would be asked to vote this money when not
even a token vote was inserted in the Appropriation
Bill for this purpose; and although Section 15
of the Transport Board Act does give the Trans.
port Board the power to borrow money, there
is no correlative power in the act to advance money
from the Treasury. It is very, very important thia'
we should not appropriate money from the Treasury
unless authorised by law or by an Amendment made
to the Appropriation Act itself, and therefore 1
would ask Your Honour's ruling as to whether we
can rightly resume Committee on a matter which
has been brought to the House in the proper way.
Now, Sir, I have suggestions to make and probably
they will fall on deaf ears, maybe because the under-
standing of members of the Government is imperfect
.n financial matters, but there is nothing at all to
prevent Government from coming here and asking
for a loan to lend the Transport Board and then the
Transport Board under Statutory authority and
inder statutory duty can then spend that money in
such a way as they may think fit. There is nothing to
prevent them from doing that. Here is a Resolu-
tion for money to be taken from under two separate
heads, one for Capital from Loan Funds and the
other for Current Expenditure, all dealt with under
the same Resolution. Mr. Speaker, there is something
else to which I would like to draw your attention.
The Appropriation Act has been passed. It is now
an Act of Parliament, and there is no Head
36 at all. No wonder, therefore, that members
will be misled when they see Head 36, Transport,
something which was never provided for in the
Appropriation Bill, and' my submission is, in view
of the submission which I have made, that it woult
be improper at this stage-not to say misleading and
completely erroneous-to resume Committee on this
matter which has not been brought to the House
in a proper way. I would like to make the position
lear. We are only asking that the approval i
Parliament be sought in a constitutional manner.
TL was competent for the Government at the time of
the Annual Estimates to put in a token vote of one
dollar to advance money from time to time out of the
Treasury if the Transport Board needed it, and 1
dare say it would be competent to return to the
House from time for an advance to the Transport
Board on the Authority of the token Resolution,
which had been inserted in the Appropriation Act
JANUARY~k 3, 1957
96JNA 3 1
That I do not question for one moment; but to
take money out of your Public Treasury to the tune
of $180,000 in this manner would be completely ir
regular and unconstitutional. I do not know w'.at
reasons the Government had during the Estimates for
leaving out Head 36 and not even putting in a token
Resolution, but I would like to remind Your Honour
that when money was voted recently for the Trans-
port Board, it was not yeTin existence. It was an
emergency. You can say we are going to lend money
for this purpose and that. That is the position, Sir,
and therefore I would be very glad if Your Honour
would give some direction at this stage which is a
completely new phase in the debate which the Gov
eminent now seeks to take.
Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member has asked
for a ruling regarding the legality of the Committee
committing itself to the expenditure involved in the
Resolution. I must point out to the hton. member as
I earlier pointed out, to the hon. senior member for
St. Philip that the Chairman has already made a
ruling. This Chamber is no place for double rulings.
In May's Parliamentary Treatise, Fifteenth Edition
Chapter 12, P'age 235" "The opinion of the Speakei
cannot be sought in the House about any matter
arising or likely to arise in Committee."
If I happened to have :been in the Chair and 1
gave a ruling which was not pleasing to hon. member s,
they have it in their power to deal with me on a
substantive motion. Similarly, when the Chairman is
in his Chair and he happens to give a ruling which
is displeasing to the Committee, they can on a sub-
stantive motion dead with the Chairman. I do not
intend in spite of the elaborate explanation given by
the hon. senior member for St. George to give a
ruling. All that the hon. member is saying points
to the fact that he disagrees with the ruling of th(0
Mr. CRAWFORD: On, a point of Order
Mr. SPEAKER: There is no point of Order:
the hon. member is out of Order to speak at this
-'tage. I am about to put the question.
The question that the hon. senior a ochr for
St. Andrew be Chairman of Conmmittees (luring the
absence of the Chair'man of Committees was put and,
resolved in the affirmative without division.
Mr. SPEAKER left the Chair and the Hov,,e
resumed Committee of Supply, Mrs. "BOURNE being
mi the Chair.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Madame Chairman,-
Hon. M. E. COX: Madam Chairman. 1 had not
finished speaking on Ihe adjournment.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: On the adjournment,.
the hon. senior member for St. Michael, the Hon.
Minister of Communications, was speaking.
Mr. CRAWFO'RD: Madam Chairman, thne
position is this: the Chairman of Committees speci-
fically gave an undertaking that during the interim
of the adjournment, he would give a Ruling.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member
take his seat and allow the hon. senior member for
.-t. Michael to continue speaking?
Mr. CRAWFORD: On a point of Order. I re-
gard it as being more than an accident that the.
Chairman of, Committees has not resumed the Chair.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is that a point of Order ?
Mr. CRAWFORD: I am going on to explain.
When the IHon. Leader of the House made the moiuon
for the adjournment, the Chairman of Committees.-
welcomed it and said that he would use the interini
of the adjournment to give the House an explana-
:'on of the matter then before it. Now that the
House has resumed its sitting, the Chairman (.
Committees is not to be found; he has disappeared.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I am not entertaining
what the hon. member is saying; the hon. senior
-oember for St. Micha(-l may proceed.
Mr. CRAWFORD: These tricks cannot always
Ho-n. M. E. COX- On the adjournmenit, i'ad
got down to the point where the Government had been
keeping separate accounts in respect of the various-
concessions taken over. I pointed out that the answer
to that particular question asked by the hon. junior
member for Christ Church as to whether the Govern-
ment had been keeping- separate accounts in respect
'of the various units t-'ken over, was 'Yes'. I have
:already said that there was a deficiency of $95,000.
.That answers the lltb question asked by the hon.
I should like at this stage to say that in addi-
lion to the matter of the purchasing of this Diesel
Motor Bus, quite receritjy-last week, I should say-
I was interviewed by 1a representative of Faulkner s
Company Limited of England who re-condition buses
and sell them. They are buses similar to those which
were recently imliported by the Lincoln Bus Comp-:Ny.
Some of these buses are gasolene motors. The reDre-
sentative pointed out that these buses are obtainable.
for approximately $3,800 each. It has been decided to
'consult the Crown Agents with a view to finding out
whether these buses are of the type which are suitable-
for this purpose. The reason for that is obvious.
Soon after these buses were taken over-it was
about three months after-the Director of Highways
;and Transport represented that we would need at
.least 51 new units to improve the' Transport service,.
I and recently we have been pressed by the Transport
Board for an additional 15 units. As you will see,
iMadamn Chairman, units at $25,000 each will repre-
sent a colossal sum, and it is hoped that we would ob-
tain some of these re-conditioned units provided, of'
course that they are in a first-class condition and
have a life of 5 to 7 years. Having regard to our finan-
cial commitments, it may be that we could purchase a
few of these buses so as to carry on the Transport
service. I should like to emphasize that it is not the
Government's intention to purchase any more gaso-
lene motors. We have found-that Trinidad is con-
centrating very seriously on these Diesel motors, and
so is the case of Jamaica.
Honourable members are aware of the fact that
in Jamaica the British Electric Traction Company
controls the King-ston and St. Andrew areas, and
that Company is solely responsible for the Trans-
portation service in those areas. I think they have
over 80 or 90 of these motors Mr. [E. D. MOTTLEY:
That is private enterprise] and the Government sub
sidises that Cohnpany very heavily in that the units
are imported duty free; gasolene, tyres, spgre parts,
everything' they get free of duty. You can quite
understand to what extent that Company is beinq
s-ubsidised by the Government. All these units are
Diesel motors, and as I pointed out earlier, in Trini-
dad, they are also concentrating on the use of these
Diesel motors: I think that we should fall into line
with these Colonies in this matter. As you know.
quite a number of people who visit these Islands will
not be in a position to hire taxis, and they would
like to sit in comfortable and modern coaches. It is
therefore proposed to concentrate on these Diesel
motors and, as I have already said, if these units are
good, the Government will at a. later stage come ti,
JANUAY 3. 1957
JANUARY 197 OFICIL GZETT 19
this House and ask for a sum of money to purchase
a certain number of them.
I have a brochure of these re-conditionedl "Diesel"
motors as well as of the re-conditioned "Bedford"
motors which I will pass around to honourable
In my closing remarks, I would like to assure
honourable members that I have outlined as lucidly
as possible the bus transport system as it is today,
and I would like to say what we all know and must
admit: that the transport services in general in this
island are not as up-to-date as we would like. But
that has always been the case. It is quite easy for
people to criticise the Government and we have q;4Jt 1
a few wiho are always eager to throw mud at the
Government whenever the opportunity avails itself.
One would have thought, reading the Advocate
newspaper sometime ago, that no bus owner ever re-
paired any buses at all, because in an issue of that
newspaper, there were pictures of at least four
.lhassis of buses out of which the engines were taken,
for repairs. I am sure that the former owners had
repaired those engines and in doing so, had lifte,
them out of the chassis and had done other things,
but according4 to the Advocate, it appears as only
since the Goviernment took over the buses that repairs
are effected to them.
From time to time people have spoken of the
inconvenience experienced in getting buses on sche-
dule. That complaint has also been made against the
former bus owners, and more so in their case. I am
sure, Madam. Chairman, we are providing today
a better service than was formerly provided.
For example, of the ten buses which we took over
from the Progressive Bus Company, the owner used
only four regularly; the others were on,.y used at
peak hours and excursions. We ran all ten. I can
tell this Committee that people from as far as Martins
Bay have come to me and said how much they ap.pre-
eiate the service which the Government is giving
them. They have said that in the days before Qov.
crnment took the buses over they could only get
a mid-day ibus to take them to Martins Bay. I have
letters, written to me telling me of the improvement
in that service and that the people from down there
can now .get a mid-day bus. I have also information
from people in St. Philip as well as from St.
BIartholomew to the effect that people from that part
of the country had to walk as far down as Oistius on
many occasions to get a bus when the former con-
cessionaires were operating on those routes. Nowada-ys
they get at least a half-hourly bus service passing
that way. I can speak from my own experience of the
Collymore Rock Route. Sometimes you had to wait an
hour before you got a bus on that route when the
fortner owners were operating those uses; now, you
oet one almost every quarter houn. Left and right,
.,adam Chahhirnman, there have been quite a lo
of improvements: but it must be appreciated that
never mind how rich a Government or a conces-
siouaire may be, he cannot provide buses in sufficient
number to meet the needs of peak hours when tnose
hours arrive. There will always be people waiting
to get buses to take them to and from work in the
morning between 7 o'clock and 8 o'clock, and in the
afternoon between 4 o'clock and 5 o'clock, because it
will be uneconomical for one to Ifind sufficient buses I
to. take off the people at those peak hours. As far
aW I can see, that situation will remain so for a lone'
Madam Chairman,. I am sure that the bus ser.
vice has improved. I think when Messrs Eckstein
Bros. used to run buses, they had 39 and of that
number they used 20 regularly; the remainder we.e
used for charter bus purposes, and a few weie taken
out to be used at the peak hours. Nowadays, of that
#-ervice, we run 30, and only one or two are kept to
relieve a bus if it breaks, down.
I do know that whenever you get changes you
will get opposition. I do know that there has been
q aite a lot of opposition whipped up against the
governmentt and against the Transport Service by
people who do not want to see the Government run-
ning that service. The Press and big business no
doubt, have been ,behind this and have been using
their influence on this bus business. I want 'to say tiat
even recently there has been a great all-round in-
provement. It has been found necessary to repri-
miand, discipline and in some cases dismiss certain
employees of the Transport Board, and I know that
some members will raise these questions: but again,
i wish to say that in all undertakings such as that,
you will no doubt find some "bad eggs'" among the
crowd, and you will have to weed them out as quickly
,as possible. I think I amn correct in saying that there
were some employees o0 this Board who were dis-
missed by some former employers who could not be
employed by those concessionaires for half a minute.
After the Transport Board took over the buses, the
names of those persons were submitted to the Board
for employment. Well, the reason for that is obvious;
therefore, it is necessary to do some cleaning up.
I will assure hon. members that the situation at,
the Transport Board is nothing like what is repre.
sented in the Press, by people who no doubt do not
,want to see the bus service run by the Government,
and by people whose only aim is to throw mud at,
I want tb assure this Committee that nothing
which has been said against me or this Government-
can stick anywhere because we are sure that we have
m;,en acting in the interest of the people, bearing ir-
mind. the cost of living and that we do not want to
do anything to increase it. As a matter of fact, we
aid in the Five Year Plan that we were not going
to, increase bus fares and we stuck to6 that.
No amount of criticism, abuse, lies. slander or
anything like that will ever change any intention I
have about anything. I want that to be known crystal
(jear. None at all! I .:m accustomed to slander and
it can go on indefinitely; it just rolls off, like water
oni a duck's back. I pay it no attention; at all as long
as I am satisfied the thing is right: and in the interest
of the community and more particularly in the
interest of the poorer class of people, especially, 1
am prepared to support it.
I beg to move tha;; this Resolution do'now pass
Hon. C. E. TALMA: I beg to second that.
Mr. GODDARD: Madam Chairman, if we were
attending a Company Meeting instead of this Assem-
ily, and this were the Annual General Meeting,
after the display of the Directors which are the
[iJinisters and the Government, they would be called
on to resign, each and everyone. In a private com-
pany they would have to get out and that is the
big difference between nationalised industries anid
private enterprise companies. For the Minister to
:zet up here for the past two hours or more and even
at the very end to say that the bus service today is
better than when it was taken over; well, each and
every member in this Chamber including the gallery
can answer that. Madam Chairman, I realized the
nature of this debate and for that reason I fur-
nished the Minister with a series of questions which
I told him I would be requiring him to answer today.
I gave them to him this morning in writing so that
he cculd prepare them, and I am going to read them
JANUARY 3, 1957
198. OFFICIALS GAZTT JANAR 3 195
because he has attempted to answe-r some, but I
notice when he got dowu to No. 12 he stopped.
The first question was: "What is the policy of
the Government in connection with the Transport of
the island ?"
The answer to that is still "they do not know.'
They have declared today that they have not taken
over for the purpose of nationalisation. They just
took them over because they said they had to. They
did not have to. They took them over because the,
claimed that the concessionaires were making ade-
quate profits, and they were not prepared to inea:,sc
ihe fares of the public and they were going to show
the concessionaires and the public that they can d.)
a better job. Well, have they done a better job?
Question 2 is "how many concessions were there
on the 10th August, 1955 ?"
Mr. Chairman resumed the Chair at this point.
Mr. TUDOR: I rise on -a point of Order. When
Your Honour was last sitting in that seat, you left u-.
with the promise that you would seek clarification on
the issue and that when you returned to your place
would give it to us. Are you not in a position to
favour this Committee with the ruling you sought?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member
wanted to know the reason for Head XXXVI. There
was no such Head XXXVI in the Estimates. In this
particular Resolution the amount being asked for is
a new Head and the Government saw fit to bring it
under Head XXXVI because there is nowhere in
the Estimates to put it. They had to bring in a
Resolution under a HIead and it being a new Head
they brought it under Head XXXVI.
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, on a point of
Order. What is the senior member for St. Mich&ael
doing behind you?
Mr. CHAIRMAN. Allow me to speak if you
want me to speak. The Tlon. member must take his
teat. Head XXXVI formerly was Transport Board,
now merged with the Department of Highways and
Transport [A VOICE: In what way ?] Don't you
Snow the way? Head XXXVI is new so that is the
reason for Head XXXVI that they are referring to.
Mr. BARROW: I do not think you understand
the question on which I sought Your Honour's
ruling, I did not know you were going to coimie back
anid consult the senior member for St. Michael.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I have not consulted the
member for St. Michael.
Mr. BARROW: I am sorry, I did not know
he would gratuitously offer his advice.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would like to warn you
that you should not accuse people of things. That
mind of yours you should leave at the bottom ofr
the stairs when you come here.
Mr. BARROW: What I am saying, Mr. Chair-
ttan, is that the estimates you have before you are
not for the present financial year because there is no
Head for Highways and Transport in the Estimates
for this year; but moreover, Your Honour will under
stand, I do not think I made myself sufficiently clear
on the issue I was putting for Your Honour's ruling
and it was this: under what authority was this Reso-
Intion being set now before the House, not where was
HTead XXXVI, because I know there was no Head
XXXVI? I am asking under what statutory
authority you are asking to take money out of th13
Mr. CHAIRMAN You said there was no Head
Mr. BARROW: I explained to you i1 could not
come under Head XXXVI because there was no
Head XXXVI and I want an indication under what
statutory authority this money is to be voted. All
the money in the Estimates for 1956-57 was voted
ny this House in the Appropriation Bill which is.
rnow the law of the land. That is the point which I
was making. I do not think you understand or I
did not make myself sufficiently clear.
If there is no Head XXXVI in the Estimates,.
then there is no law. Therefore, I would like to know
under which law we are expecting the Colonial
Treasurer to pay out this money.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I take it that after we have-
passed the Estimates and you want to bring down
a Resolution for money, you would have to bring-
it down. under a certain Head and this is a new
Head. In other words, I would have to say that-
ihis is new money. [laughter].
Mr. BARROW: I do not know whether they are-
going to print this money or not. [Laughter from
111,e Visitors' Gallery].
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would like, to say a few
words to the visitors in the Gallery. The visitors in
he Gallery are not allowed to shout or to laugh when.
they are there; they must sit quietly and listen to the
Mr. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, perhaps thoe
jocular manner in which you answered the question
} provoked mirth. However, that is by the way. I
would like to know what is the le gal sanction for
-his expenditure of public funds out of the Treasury.
I am not asking for the Head of the Estimates which
they have invented, and you have suggested that they
are inventing the money as well; I think I have made
i myself quite clear. The Appropriation Act authorises
money to be taken out of the Treasury for the year,
and unless you have a Supplementary ResolutionL
for something which is already in the Act, you can-
-.ot create a new Heal in this way. I do not think
*hat you should allow yourself to be misled by the
blandishments of any of the members on that side
, f the House; they cannot make the illegal legal.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: I think that this farce
has gone on quite long enough. I have told the hon.
member before that whatever happens in the Law
Courts, let him keep out of law when in the House,
because whenever he opens his mouth on the law,
nie is always wrong. What has the hon. member said ?
THe says that once you have passed an Appropriation
Act, you cannot spend any more money.
Mr. BARROW: The hon. member is buildingo-
ip a thesis to destroy himself. He is misquoting me:
is he giving a Ruling?
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: The hon. member said
that outside the Heads of the Estimates and the
Appropriations Act, you cannot spend any money, We
vill all see what he said when the Report of the
debates comes out. [Mr. BARROW: You will have
, dited the debates by that time.] Anybody who has
been called to the Bar should be ashamed to let
what the hon. member has said come out of his
(nouth. The Crown can come to the House and ask
for money at any time: you do not pass a law saying
that the Crown can ask for money. It is no wonder
that we get these guffaws from the hon. senior mem-
ber for St. Philip and the honourable junior member
for St. Lucy. We have passed the Estimates, and we
put a sum of money in the Appropriation Act; that
money is appropriated to the service of the Crown for
the year. On the day after,-you may have a disaster,
it may be a hurricane or, suddenly, you may make
up your mind 'to set up an Atom Bomb Station or
anything you like. If you have not got a Head in the
Estimates, must you not create a new Head? The
Draughtsman remembered that we used to have a
Head in connection with Transport; that Head was
wiped out because the Transport Board was amalga-
mated with the Highways Board. You have a gap
.OF FI ,IA.L GAETT
JANUARYTC 3, 1957i
JANUARY 3, 1957 OFFICIAL GAZETTE 190
between Head XXXV and Head XXXVII of the
Estimates, and what is more appropriate than to
,create a new Head which would be a -lead in respect
of Transport? I would guarantee that the average
bright child who comes in here, and knows anything
as to how money is spent by; the Government would
be able to answer the question. No such dchid could
possibly say that you need a Statute to enable the
Crown to come to the Legislature for money. [Mr.
BARROW: For this money.] You do not need any
Statute for any money for which you are asking.
If there is no Statute creating a Head, then you
.ask for a Supplementary vote under a new Head.
We come down for a Siupplementary Estimate and
put in a freslhi Head; We can put in the Head "Atom
Bomb Research". The honourable member would
then ask: "Where is the authority for doing that?"
Mr. Chairman, do youl think that I feel happy, being
a Barrister myself, when I hear a man who has been
,called to the Bar making such elementary mistakes
which a boy attending a Primary school should be
,ashamed of making, and apparently being taken seri-
ously? I repeat: the Crown can ask for money at
any time for anything, and it is up to Parliament to
abolish it or grant it. For somebody who, as far as
we know has been called to the Bar, to ask for the
:Statutory authority under which the Crown has
asked for money, and complain that in a new Reso-
lution you have not got any Head under which to put
it, well, I do not know that anything could be more
farcical than that. This tells you that it needs a new
H-lead because no old Head is there. It is time to stop
this sort of thing, Election year or no Election year;
it is time for anybody to stop displaying such invin-
cible ignorance as the honourable member displays.
Mr. BARROW: The honourable member has
made a reference to my legal ability. If I am not dis-
playing that ability, he must be a little patient with
me. It did not take me the long number of years
which it took him to get through the Bar Finals,
because I was a bit more in a \hurry than he was. I
should like to say that personal abuse is no answer
to criticism and the sooner the honourable member
learns that, the better it will be for him. He took
the longest time to qualify at the Bar; with, such
depravity coming from that side of the House from
a man who has won a Scholarship illegally, well,
such a person would not be concerned with the exi-
gencies of Parliamentary procedure at this stage. If
the foundation was bad, then the superstructure must
be also bad.
For the honourable member to get up and give
a ruling for Your Homour is an attempt to subvert
the authority of the Chair. Of course, if Your Hon-
our accepts the ruling, well, I will accept it. Let him
get up and tell his colleagues and his satellites how
much time he took to do his Bar Exams.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am appealing to the hon-
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: For the honourable mem-
ber's benefit, although it is purely personal, but for his
satisfaction let him go and look up the records and
he will see that I never began to take my Bar Exam-
nations until my last year. I read law at' Oxford
University but that has nothing to do with that. Be-
fore the honourable member begins to raise his points
let him look up the records.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman,
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable junior mem-
ber for Christ Church will continue to speak.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I am enti-
tled to make a personal explanation.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable senior mem-
ber for St. Philip is out of order.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Am I not entitled to make
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am saying that you are
out of order.
Mr. CRAWFORD: How am I out of order?
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am saying that the hon-
ourable junior member for Christ Church will con-
Linue to speak.
Mr. CRAWFORD: I am entitled to make a per-
sonal explanation now.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I am asking the honourable
senior member for St. Plhilip for the second time to
take his seat and to let the honourable junior mem-
ber for Christ Church continue to speak.
Mr. GODDARD: Mr. Chairman,
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I am say-
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable senior mem-
ber for St. Philip must take his seat. The honourable
junior member for Christ Church gave way for the
honourable junior member for St. Lucy. I am say-
ing that the honourable junior member for Christ
Church must continue to speak.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Who gave way for the hon-
ourable senior member for St. Joseph? He just got
up and ran the Chair and everything. I have nevei
heard this thing in Parliament all my life.
iMr. CHAIRMAN: For the third time I am call.
ing on the honourable senior member for St. Philip
to take his seat and to allow the honourable junior
member for Christ Church to finish his speech. The
honourable senior member for St. Philip will have
bis opportunity to speak later.
Mr. GODDARD: Mr. Chairman, my second
question was how many Concessionaires applied on
the 10th August, 1955 and in the reply by the Hon.
Minister of Communications, he said that there were
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I am entitled
to rise on a point of explanation.
Mr. CHAIR,1MAN: On what is the honourable
Mr. CRAWFORD: I am speaking on a point of
explanation. The honourable senior member for St.
Joseph in his fulminations against honourable mem.
bers referred to the honourable junior member for
St. Lucy and myself because we could not agree
with his reasoning on the Resolution before us. He
went on to say that if the Government wanted to set
up and Atom Bomb Research Station they could bring
in a new Head and ask for the money to set it up.
He is perfectly correct because we have no Atom
Bomb Research Station.
MIr. CHAIRMiAN: Is that a point of explanation?
Mr. CRAWFORD: I want to explain to the
satisfaction of the House and the Committee as well
as the honourable senior member for St. Joseph that
it does not mean by one passing his Bar Examination
that he has all The sense. If, Mr. Chairman, you had
previously created an Atom Bomb Research
Mr. CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of ex-
Mr. CRAWFORD: Am I not entitled to explain
for the benefit of the Committee ? I merely got up to
show the waste of time of the village lawyer. I was
saying, Sir, that previously in this House when we,
had a. question as regards expenditure of that Trans-
port Board Authority we were told by the Hon.
Minister of Communications that he could not answer
the question then; he had to wait until he got a
statement from the authority. In other words, having
once established an authority, in financial matters
concerning that authority you must get a statement
from that authority itself first.
cJATruARY 3-,- 190 1.
200 OFFICIAL GAZETTE J~u~a~ 3, 1957
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a
point of Order. I think the honourable member
is misleading the Committee. What I said then was
that the matter was sub judice and that according to
the Transp ort Act, a statement of expenditure must
b4 laid on the Table of the House at the end of the
Year's working of the Transport Board. I have never
said what the honourable member has just said.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, the honour-
able member was asked about the expenditure of
Mr. CHAIRIMAN: That is not a point of ex-
planation. You got up to reply to the remarks about
Mr. CRAWFORD: Well, I am telling you
Mr. CHAIRMfAN: You got up. and said that
i ou wanted to give a personal explanation and
1 gave you the opportunity.
Mr. CRAWFORD: I have not made it yet.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Well make it now.
Mr. CRAWFORD: For the honourable member
to come in here and abuse people
Mr. CHAIRMAN: You got up to make a
personal explanation; do make it now.
Mr. CRAWFORD): I am suggesting that th-
honourable senior member for St. Joseph has attempt.-
ed to pull matters of procedure in this House dow;.
to the level, which one does not associate with this
Parliament. .When the ;time comes I will reply to the
nonsense he talked about the legality of the Resolu-
tion because he knows it is not right. At this stage,
Mr. Chairman, I am justified in qjiotingi what he
Mr. CHAIRMAN: You can speak on that until
morning when your turn comes. Allow the honourable
junior member for Christ Church to continue.
Mr. GODDARD: Mr. Chairman, the next ques-
tion -- Question 4 is to the effect as to what pur-
pose the Government took over these concessions. Was
it for the purpose of granting new and equivalent
concessions? T-he Hon. Minister replied by saying
"no." He said that they did not take them over with
that view. I am saying that they did. Some appli-
cations were made but they were not entertained.
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, I did not say
anything about they were not entertained. I made
it crystal clear that they were not atteni<(Id 'to be-
cause we did not know how much the buses w'er4
worth. I said that the applications still hold good
up to today.
Mr. GODDARD: He took them over to
prove to the public that they could run them
better than the existing concessionaires and at
the same time to make a profit. Well, he has
failed miserably in both. We have a much worse
transport service to-day and it goes back to the
type of transport when we had the fly buses. It is
tantamount to that, and if his removal to Bay Street
has caused him not to realise the hardships on the
travelling public in Bridgetown, I would invite him
at half past three any afternoon to leave the Minis-
terial Buildings and come down in his car and watch
outside here or opposite Dr. Storey's and see how
the public gets home and say whether it is his idea
that the twenty-five minutes or hour and a half spent
in the morning to catch a bus and another hour and
a half to catch a bus back home is deserving of keep-
ing the fares down by half-cent. That is his econo-
rics, but I believe each and every person of the
travelling public were prepared and are prepared
to pay to get a ride home or to work as soon as they
come out of their doors as possible, but that does not
obtain today. It has got worse: and with this state-
ment that the buses are in better shape than they
were with the old concessionaires. I am only going to
make this one statement and say how false that is.
How many buses have been licensed today. Now,
tc day is the 3rd of July, and in the month of June
every vehicle should be licensed and in the former
days they were licensed when owned by private in-
dividuals and those existing concessionaires today
have licensed everyone. Today out of 116 buses whici
they have-I will admit they have some in the grave
yard, and they have some with engines out-I would
like to know how many are licensed. I have made
enquiries and I will tell him. In St. Michael they
have licensed 34. Now, you have 106 buses and may
be you have licensed some in the other parishes, but
surely with 34 buses licensed today you are doing
something and breaking the law that no concession-
aire could have done. Under the old practice, con-
cessionaires had to ,have their buses up to standard.
in June when they would go to the Parochial Treasur-
er with their forms from the Transport Board and
their Insurance certificates, to pay their licences. To-
days you have licensed 34 in the parish of St. Michael.
Of course, I will allow for some that might bfe
Licensed in St. Philip or some other parish. What
are the others doing?? Are you telling me that the
buses are running without licences and that it is a
better system than the old one ? You may draw your
conclusions but the public will draw them differently.
That is what is happening today! I do not know if
they are licensed and the pedestrians are becoming
impatient. That is the type of transport we have
today. What are the reasons for Government retain-
ing certain concessions and yet making application
for funds for the nationalisation of the island trans
port service ? This is nine months since the taking
over of the buses and we have heard for the first time
they hope that at the earliest moment they will ind
someone from somewhere after their operation who
will take over those buses and run the service as they
direct. Well, they have found someone to take back
his buses and the honourable member has proved
today that that man is a very happy man who was
making money and whose intention it was not to
give up his buses. iHe said the gentleman took them
back as they were at the time. Now, I am in a posi-
tion to state that that is also false. They were directed
over at the Transport Board to put these buses in
top form, and if necessary to put in new engines;
and I understand there were some new engines put
in, and I do know they worked on them into the
wee hours of the morning and delivered them at 12
o'clock. i do not think they could have delivered all
at the same time because they were not in good condi-
tion to hand them back. So when the Minister gets
up and says that the former proprietor was anxious
to get them back and took them as they were, that is
contrary to what we know to be the facts. They were
worked on and actually a direction went out to
the mechanics to put them in top shape and if
necessary put in new engines. [A VOICE: From
J & R?] You cannot throw any red-herring across
my trail; I will continue with this. I know it hurt
and it would hurt any Minister who had feelings to
have to take what he has to take today, but he has
started off wrong, he has continued wrong, and he
is still blundering on.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: I aan sorry to interrupt
the honourable knember but can he tell me since when
the Transport Board is a Government Deplrtment?
Mr. GODDARD: It is directed as if it were a
Government Department. It has gone from bad to
worse; it was conceived in spite and nothing will
succeed that is taken over like that.
The honourable member made a statement, and
he read out that the Commission of Enquiry had
JANUARY 3. 1 5 7
j At&LNTr 2 lqjX OFI GATT
said that they were unable to arrive at adequate
conclusions because some of the Concessionaires
were unable to furnish adequate figures. However,
the honourable member did not say that there
was at least one Concessionaire who could
have furnished every conceivable figure which they
could have wanted and did furnish it; he could have
come to conclusions from that Report of Conces-
sionaires, but he neglected to say that. I am pointing
out that they have two Reports, one from the Direc-
tor of Highways and Transport, and one from their
appointed Committee, but they went against the ex-
press views of the Committee's Report and they sail
that they were bringing somebody from Trinidad to
make a third Report. Where are we going? IWhen
this person has finished reporting and he tells you
to put the Transport system of this Island on a proper
footing you will have to do that some day-it may
cost you $4 million or $5 million, and what are you
going to say? Are you going to get rid of the exist-
ing conditions under which the Transport system
is operated now? Are you going to turn back the
Transport service to be run by the former Conces-
sionaires or even new Concessionaires?
'The Auditor has made a Report to the end of
March and the figures quoted show a loss by this
Transport Department of the sum of $170,000. [Hon.
1. E. COX: That is not true.] I am surprised to
hear the Hon. Minister say that the Board has only
lost $95,000, and he went on to explain that most of
that money was due to increase wages and salaries
of the employees. Some day, we will know the whole
story. Twelve months will soon be up; we still have
three more months to go. I can only hope that we
will have profit and loss accounts properly audited
as soon as possible and that will be another imposi-
tion even bigger than this one; many of the facts
which are being withheld today will be exposed on
I asked the Hon. Minister if, when the Trans-
port Board took over these concessions, they operated
them individually, and his answer to that question
was Yes". If that is so, then he could have gone
on to answer my further questions. These are the
important ones which he did not answer; question
No. 11 was: "If so, will Government state what
profits and or losses were made in respect of each
concession retained?" That question has not been
answered; perhaps, he will give the information to
me up to the end of December or March or to the
end of May. From my own deductions, I do not know
where they are going. My next question was this:
"What is the gross revenue from fares, advertising
and other sources?" That would be up to the end
of March or June. I would be grateful if these fig-
ures were available because we should be in a position
+o know the other things we are going to have.
The next question was this: "What were the
expenses in respect of the following:- (a) Repairs,
(b) Licences; (e) Rent, Light, water and telephone,
(d) Salaries, (e) Stationery and printing; (f) In-
surance (g) Wages; (h) Gasolene and Oil; (i) Tyres
and tubes; (j) Legal and accident suits; (k)Depre-
ciation on buses; (1) Depreciation on Machinery;
m) Depreciation on Furniture; (n) Depreciation on
The Hon. Minister has not furnished one figure:
in respect of any of these items, yet he told us that
they have kept the accounts separately for each con-
cession taken over. I would like to know how' they
could have kept separate accounts for each concession
when I have seen, a National bus up in Oistins and
In Cave Hill, and indeed as far afield as St. Philip ?
f do not know if these accounts are kept in respect
of each bus or group of buses in respect of each rout?..
Question No. 14, was this: "Are there any out-
standing debts? If so, what is the amount of such
debts, and to whom are they owing?" [Hon. M. B.
COX: "J & R." is included] [Laughter] I am very
pleased to know that I am included, but if the hon.
member kept accounts like that, even up to the end
of March, he would have furnished the information,
but he has not done so.
The next question was this (a) "How many of
the buses at present retained by Government have
passed the annual inspection? (b) How many are in
operation to date ? (c) How many are unserviceable?'
Do you not think that that would have been
helpful information to be given even at 12 o'clock
today? Can the hon. member furnish that informa-
tion even at this late hour?
At this stage it would be interesting to note that
under the Transport system of this Island, buses
nave to be inspected by the Police every quarter.
Have the Police inspected any of these buses during
the last two quarters prior to this one? It is within
my knowledge that this inspection has lapsed, and
we are only now having a partial annual inspection
(f these buses. The danger to the travelling public
and to pedestrians is bt'coming greater, and we have
an improved bus service according to the standard
of the Hon. fMinister of Transport!
The last question I asked the Hon. Minister was
this: "By what authority and under what condi-
tions were the Progressive Buses handed back to Mr.
Well, I have dealt with that matter already, ana,
Mr. Chairman, you have heard what the Hon. Minis-
ter has said; he has said that the Progressive buses
were handed back to Mr. Birch under the same cou-
ditions and the same state in which they were when
he applied on the last occasion.
Hon M. E. COX: I did not say that.
Mr. GODDARD: You said that they were re-
turned to him and he was so anxious to get them
;ack that he took them as they were. [A VOICE:
With new engines.] Yes, with instructions to tlie
mechanics to have them put in top condition even
if new engines had to be put in them.
Hon). M. E. COX: Who gave those instructions?
Mr. GODDARD: Mr. Chairman, the Minis-
ter's whole defence of the Transport System has been
the type of criticism that the employers in. Barbados
are the most vicious and scandalous imaginable he
has known. He attempts to say that the Transport
System as run by the Transport Board has been sabo-
taged by big business. That has been his whole de-
fence. He attempts to say that they have got into
this difficulty because of big business trying to irn-
timidate the employees of the Transport Board so
as to see that the conditions over there are unfavour-
able as can be. Of course he includes the Press. He
is trying to throw mud on somebody. It is a most
vicious thiin to do and if that were the attitude o
Governments in the past, not only business in this
Island but business in the other neighboring Islands
will be afraid to have dealings with this Government
because they will never know what they are going
to get. When you are wrong, say that you are wrong.
The gentleman from Trinidad whom they are
now asking to come and give them a third report
is the Licensing Authority of that colony. Did he
not visit here a few months ago (it might be for
two days) to give the Government a little idea of
what type of transport would be more suitable for
this Island? I was very pleased to hear the Hon.
Minister say that this gentleman spoke highly of the
type of buses we have operating here and the system
that is now operated in Trinidad as well as in Jama-
ica, but the Honi. Minister did not tell us that the
JANUARY 3 1957
202 OFFiCIAL GAZETTE JANUARY 3, 1957
'Transport system both in Trinidad and Jamaica is
being run privately and not by Government. Those
two colonies had a (Government Transport system
formerly and they both failed; so both of those Gov-
ernments eventually realized that running a trans-
port service w'as something for private industry to
do; so they turned it over to private enterprise.
At one moment he says that the former conces
sionaires made money out of the business and will
Continue to make money under the existing condit-
ions, but after that he comes back and tells us that
although Government is running a better service, it
is losing money. Is it not that Government cannot
run the system ?
I will draw to his attention that the Vestry of
St. Michael has not got one penny from the Govern.
ment this year by way of taxation on the transport
system. In the past we have been in the happy posit.
ion. of getting trade returns from the concessionaires
who operated in St. Michael. When the Vestry of Sit.
Michael was laying its rates this year it expected to
get trade tax on something like $30,000 profit from,
the bus companies. When the Assessor approach'
the Transport Board for its trade returns and thn
Vestry was hoping and expecting from the Board a
trade return because Government said that they
would make money a d that was the reason they
took them over, the Assessor came back to the Vestry
and said that the Board reported a loss [A
VOICE: Who said that?] 'That meant that the
Vestry of St. Michael has not received one penny
from the bus business this year although all along
from the time Messrs Eckstein Bros. were running
the buses, bus companies have paid taxes in St
Michael. Now, the first year that Government has
taken them over, they have returned a loss, and as
a result, they are not paying any taxes. They are us-
ing a Government Department, the workshop of th.
Department of Highways and Transport, they hav~e
hadalready $30,000 which is already gone and they
have come now for $110,000 which is an amount that
can only buy tyres and all of that, to run the Trans-
port service. Do you not realise that this amount
which you have come for is inadequate? You should
at least come for a sum to carry you through to the
end of the year. Is it your intention to run oup
bills in order to carry en w
Mr. Chairman, I do not have to say much more
-on the existing transport system and the types of
buses, because apart from the Hon. Minister c.
Transport, everyone else realises that the buses a1'"
not only dirty, filthy and want painting badly but
the engines want repairing because they misfire,
back-fire, catch afire and stop on the roads daily. I.
as seldom a morning that I come to work that there.
is not a bus on the road waiting for something to
tow it back into the yard of the Highways and Trans-
If I may get on with the other parts of the
Resolution, I see tha.i Government has come down
for $25,000 to buy a single diesel bus to show the
public what comfort in travelling really means.
When you buy that one bus, I hope you will take
into account the size of the bus and that you will
not have to bring down a Bill to amend the present
law to make provision for a wider size bus. Does
Government feel satisfied that this type of bus which
you are getting down is the right type? You say thai
you are getting it for the public to see the type of
comfort in travelling they will get in the future. I.q
that a little hold-out to the public so that when the
time comes for Government to say that it wants 120
of those buses to put the public transport on a proper
system that the people will be in a better mood to
ask their representatives to vote the money, and let
something else that they have promised in the past
to the people wait a little longer?
However, Sir, we will wait for the report of
this gentleman who is to come from Trinidad. Gov
ernment has stated tonight that it is not their inten-
tion to nationalise the bus service of this Island and
that they are hoping as soon as a settlement as to
the payment of these buses is reached that they will
find t-oncessionaires who will come forward to take
back certain of these bus routes and run them.
But he goes on today and says that Government
intends to keep a few. What purpose would that
serve if they keep even one ? What would be the pur-
pose of that? He did make that statement about keep-
ing one or two! If I am wrong I would like him To)
clarify that. What are the few they are going to
keep and for what purpose? Where do you propose
making your bus terminal for this purpose ? Where?
What size will these Fheds be, and how- many buses
are expected to be housed in these sheds? If it is
possible to furnish that information we would be
grateful. As regards the honoraria of $750 there were
many persons who in the take over had quite a lot
of arduos duties to perform at odd hours, day and
night, and I see that the sum of $750 is to recor,-
pense these persons. Would it be possible for you
to say how many persons you intend to recompense
because the question was once asked by some member
, f this House-I forget who it was-whether it was
the intention of tjhe Government to recompense tnw
Director of Highways a.d Transport for the amount
jf work he had to put into the initial stages and a
reply came that that was part of his duties and no
recompense to him was contemplated. There may be
junior staff; and if it can be said how many there
are, we, on this side of the Table would be very
grateful for that information. The amount for legal
expenses is a revote and that is really outside of
the questions I have asked, and I do not intend to
go into that. But as regards accommodation for these
buses I w-ould like that information if he has got
the questions clearly which I have stated: the size,
where you intend to put it, for how many buses, and
whether in one or other places, because it seems
that until you can tell me how many buses you are
going to house I will be content with that. Again, I
regret I cannot share the Minister's happy views
about the type of public transport that exist today,
and I know that when the concessionaires ran these
buses they had to conform to a standard that was
No much higher than exist today that if one bus mis-
ired twice, the road inspectors were asked to take
that bus off. Not only do they misfire today but I
think they catch afire. and the buses are still put
back on the road next day to take people out.
Mr. BRANCKET- Mr. Chairman. because of
my conviction that it is in the interest of this com-
mirunity that the public passenger transport system
should be nationalised, Government is entitled to be
entirely optimistic in respect to my support on this
Measure in the Resolhtion which is before us; but
Sir, I must say that I was greatly perturbed to hear
the Hon. Minister who is in charge of this make cer-
tain remarks this afternoon, because one felt that
because it is the policy of a Socialist Government
in the interest of the, people toq nationalise every
,'sential commodity-One took it for granted-and
particularly having heard the answers which were
given to my questions earlier last year in connection
with the nationalisation of public passenger trans-
port, Government even if temporarily or lukewarm-
ndly, halfheartedly were embarking upon complete
nationalisation of the public passenger transport
system of this colony: but the remark, Sir, of the
JANUARY- 3, 1957 'JFFICAL GAZETl 20
Minister which has caused me so much perturbation
included this: that there is no question of Govern-
ment being desirious of taking over the buses but
simply a question of Government doing its best to
keep down the cost of living; so Sir, let us consider
that for a moment. "There was no question of Gov-
ernment desirious of taking over the buses." Well,
Sir, either the Government is in favour of nationali-
sation or they are not in favour of nationalising
essential utilities and when it was said by the Hon.
Minister that there was no question of Government
taking over the buses but that Government was do-
ing- his best to keep down the cost of living, it is an
indication that the Minister does not appreciate the
best means of keeping it down is by nationalisation
of essential commodities; but of course, there is tak-
ing over and taking on and there are two important
elements in respect of taking over. One is like taking
ever stock and barrel, and then you buy everything
at wholesale price at a much cheaper rate than
would obtain when you buy only the number which
you require for the concessions which have been
taken over Again, of course, if Government is run-
ning a business, it does not have to make a profit.
You want to run a business, it does not have to
make a profit. You want to run a business efficiently
and while they do not want to make a loss, undoubt-
edly you would not want, as would any of the bitg
frms or even the small firms of this island insist
on being able to show a profit. What you must in-
sist on being able to show is that you have a satisfied
contented public as a result of the units being run.
But another aspect of it which is discouraging, Sir.
is that from the very take over-and they had notice
of it, it did not happen overnight; the matter cf
some weeks when the former concessionaires were
asked to give up the buses and later to hold on for a
sufficiently number of weeks while the frame work
of a proper organisation would be constructed so
that in the taking over they would run with effi-
eiency and proper administration. To take over a
series of concessions or concessionaires in respect of
which each formerly had its own manager and to
take the whole lot over without a manager at all I
As you know this system started in September and
it was only in mid-February that we heard of a
manager being advertised for and appointed. Well,
no bus service could ever be expected to run itself
with everybody as a manager and everybody as a
boss. The public should not be given the impression
that this matter was being so managed or misman-
aged as to get the public afraid of nationalisation
and be made to believe that nationalisation is bound
to be a failure.
My contention is the reverse; there must be pro-
per and adequate management in all spheres of busi-
The other remark which the Hon. MIinister made
and which has caused me great concern, was that the
G(overnnment always intended to get rid of some o
these buses. That does not go to show that this ques-
tion of real Socialist nationalisation finds very much
favour either with the Hon. Minister himself or
with the Government as a whole. That phrase is very
direct and provocative. That is a point which goes
very much against the Hon. Minister, because on the
one hand he has told us that Mr. Birch so, much wel-
comed back his buses, that he came for them, or that
he sent for them in the dead of night; and that he
used only 4 buses in the past, whereas the Govern-
ment used 10. If Mr. Birch would use only 4 of his
houses and keep the others in the garage, and the
Government used each and every one of the 10 buses,
yom, would have thought that they would not be jus-
tified in giving back Mr. Birch these buses unless
there was an undertaking given to run all 10 of these
buses. Of course, on the other hand, MVr. Birc-h has
only; one route on which to run these 10 buses and
they must be usefully employed on this route. Now
that the Government's fleet of buses 'have been de-
pleted, I am forced to ask: what happens now? Does
lie keep 4 or 5 or 6 of these buses in constant use?
We must be suffering as the public, if we are as-
sured that no longer are the roiultes of this Island
serving thie travelling public of Barbados.
Under Part 1 of this Resolution, at paragraph 1
of the Transport Board up to 30th June, 1956, will
amount to approximately $110,000. It 'has not been
possible to calculate the amounts which will have to
be provided for renewals and replacements."
I am wondering if 150 new tyres are all that
are required to fit the Government's buses with
tyres, because these tyres on the Government's buses
are in a poor condition; that is to be regretted par-
ticularly now that the rainy season has set in. I
have never seen such billiard-table tyres as I have
seen on the Government's buses; I remember only
a few weeks ago being called to Crumpton Street
which was the scene of an accident between a bus
running on the My Lord's Hill route, and one of
General Traders' lorries. I went to the scene of the
accident in my professional capacity; I happened to
look at the tyres on that particular bus, and I have
not seen tyres as absolutely bereft of threads as I
saw on the bus. The public who travel on that route,
and indeed the rest of the public should be protect-
ed against buses being run with thread-bare tyres of
that sort. Mr. Chairman, I .am sure that you will be
able to help the Government with the adequate num-
ber of tyres of which they so obviously stand in need.
I cannot see that 150 new tyres could be adequate to
have the 106 units remaining under Government
control prooperly fitted.
Paragraph 2 which deals With advice on re-or-
ganisation of the Transport system, refers to the
sum of $2,245. I am not quite clear as to the length
of time that this gentleman will be here, but one gets
the impression that it might be rather long because
the note refers to our contribution for his salary
and pension. This is what is stated in the note:-
"It will also be necessary to provide for his
salary and pension contribution or an honorarium
whichever is preferred by the Government of Trini-
Any3how the amount is in the vicinity of 500
and therefore, it does not call for any special com-
Paragraph 3 of these notes says this:-
"There were certain members of the staff of
the Department of Highways and Transport who
were called on to work long and continuous hours
in connection with the taking over of the buses. It
is proposed to pay honoraria to these persons and
for this purpose there is needed a total of $750.
That amount seems to be very small; it is only
$750. I wonder if when the Hon. Minister rises again
in this debate-I have no doubt that he will rise
many times again-he will supply us with the break-
down of this amount. When we come to paragraph
4 of these notes, there is a re-vote in connection with,
the services of a Queen's Counsel to appear on be-
half of the Government in any proceedings which
may arise out of the taking over of the buses. I do
think that the Government should be congratulated.
on having secured the services of such a distinguish-
ed Caribbean Queen's Counsel >as Mr. Wooding for
the reasonable fee of 1,000 guineas. I think that the
Government is very fortunate in this respect; we
all know the ability of Mr. Wooding as against our
JANUAR'4KY 31, 1957
204 OFFICIAL GAZETTE
Acting Attorney General. You will agree with me,
AMr. Chairman, that tias is money which will be well
spent. Since tne iloii. senior member for St. Joseph
has retired from the Bar, it is surprising for what a
reasonable fee one can get a really good Counsel.
Under Capital Expenditure, we have the propo-
sal to purchase this Diesel bus which will have a life
of 10 years. This is the most intriguing part of this
Resolution; if t~his 44 Sleater Diesel bus becomes so
popular with the public as the hon. member in
charge of this Resolution anticipates, it is proposed
that all the Government-operated buses should be
44 Seater Diesel buses until something better is
evolved? Should we have selected routes-and in
that case, knowing the Hon. Minister as I do, these
Diesel buses would be in St. Michael-or it is pro-
posed .to have 44 Seater buses operating throughout
the Island for these 5,000 guineas apiece ? If that is
accepted as the standard unit for the Transport
system of this Island, then the private concession-
aires will also be required to invest in these comfor-
table and commodious units. Obviously, that should
be the case and if they decide that they cannot afford
to do that, then it would be quite a simple matter
for these concessionaires to hand over their buses to
the Hon. Minister and let us achieve this full-blooded
nationalisation of the Transport system. That is the
only way in which the Transport service will be
made to pay; the Government will be able to control
all the routes and have efficient people employed in
the running of the service.
Let the Hon. Minister understand this: the best
people to run any concern are the people who are
the most fitted to do it. Those people may or may
not be personal friends of the Minister or for that
matter anybody else. Friendship should not count
here as efficiency; the only test and criterion if you
want the system to be a success and you do not
want it to be a failure is efficiency.
Now, Sir, as regards the $75,500 for accom-
modation for omnibuses and workshops I have no
quarrel about that, although I certainly, like the
hon. member who preceded me on the floor of the
House, lack information on the matter. We cer-
tainly should have been given detailed information
on the $75,500 which is to be voted for this expendi-
ture. The Hon. Minister should give us information
as to how many buses are supposed to be housed
and where it is intended that this building and the
workshop should be situated.
Now, Sir, I will refer to what I consider is an
important matter, one to which the Hon. Minister
referred in one of his speeches on this matter. He
said that it is necessary to reprimand, discipline
atd even dismiss employees. No one will disagree
that at times it is necessary to reprimand, discip-
line and even dismiss employees. That is nothing
lto deplore but when the apparent necessity arises,
Government should see to it that all steps are taken
in order to safeguard the employee and to ensure
that his case is properly put before the Board.
They should never attempt to consider a case of
this kind unless there is present throughout the
entire hearing of it a representative of the Trade
Union to which the employee belongs. I am told
that always happens. In every case the employee's
interest should be safeguarded.
As you know, when one is working with the,
Government, one does not expect to be dismissed
or to have one's job sacrificed unless one is proven
guilty of something very serious. Only last week,
a letter was received. by an employee of the Trans.
port Board that his services were terminated on
the ground of general inefficiency? I have see-
that actually in writing and I must confess I can.-
not understand it. One would like to see them if
legal proceedings were taken out against them, Ct-
tempting to justify this vague, general charge of
inefficiency. It should be something specific to pin
down on the employee Even. so, before sending in
a written notice of general inefficiency, there should
be a proper opportunity for the employee to an-
swer in. writing such charges as there may be which
constitute the alleged general inefficiency in writ-
ing after he has had the opportunity to study them
and that record of his should be placed among
the archives of the Transport Board.
Even though I see the necessity at times to
:-eprima-'d, discipline and dismiss an employee, it
is not good when an employee arrives for his pay
packet on pay day to be handed a letter saying:
"You are hereby dismissed and you need not re-
turn to work again." That is not good enough.
The first time that an employee knew that he was
regarded as generally inefficient was when he re-
ceived a letter from the Board with a statement
to that effect.
Sir, I will warn the Hon. Minister of Communi-
cations that although this Transport Board is a
separate entity he should, without appearing to
take in hand any running of this Board to let it
he known, perhaps by circular from Government,
that all the proper steps must be taken in order to
ensure that every employee, from the humblest to
the greatest, is given the opportunity to state his
case and to answer all the charges which they might
put against him.
This may be a small point, but it is only now
that either they do not have the right sign up as
since these buses have been run by Government
Lo the direction in which they are going, or that it
"s upside down or inside out, or in respect of a
different route so that which the bus is actually go-
ing. It is a most outstanding thing one notices on
the road. They may appear to be rather minor
things but they should be looked into.
What I do suggest about the new Diesel bus
which they propose to get is that one is not enough
for a start. Mr. Chairman, you do know that al-
JLough every new car is expected to be good, (per-
haps the Fords are better than the rest) yet it
does happen occasionally even with the new run of
cars that among them you will buy one in which
there is something wrong and as a result you have
lo return it and get another new one in its place.
That is my objection to this proposition of yours for
buying only one 44-seater Diesel bus to be used to
demonstrate the many advantages of such a vehicle
for the public transport system I think Sir, I have
made sufficient comment on this Resolution which
as I said I am supporting with the misgivings which
I have uttered and with the constructive criticism to
which I trust the Minister has listened and which I
hope he will readily act upon. I do not propose to
say anything more about this, Sir, but I wonder if
before I resume my seat, you would like me at this
stage---I see, Sir, you appear somewhat tired and
perhaps ready to perform another very necessary
function, and I would move that you do now re-
port progress and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. CRAWFORD: I beg to second that.
The question was put and resolved in the affir-
mative without division and Mr. SPEAKER re
,:umed the Chair and reported accordingly.
lion. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to
r ove that the House do now adjourn for three
quarters of an hour.
lfon. R. G. VTMAPP: I beg to second that.
JANUARY 3) 19 5-
UA1\TTTI SO C A T2
The question was put and resolved in the affir-
mative without diviswn and Mr. SPEAKER ad-
journed the House accordingly.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY CT'D.
Mr. SPEAKER: On the adjournment the
House was in Committee of Supply.
Mr. TUDOR: Mr. Speaker, I am going to ask
leave of the House to proceed with the Address of
which I gave notice earlier today.
Hon. Dr. H. G. II. CUMMINS: I object to
that. We want to get through with the Govern-
The question that leave be granted the hon.
member was put and resolved in the negative, the
House dividing as follows:
Ayes: MR. TUDOR, MR. CRAWFORD, _1R.
HAYNES, MR. GODDARD---4
Noes: MR. SMITH, HON. DR. CUMMINS; HON.
M. E. Cox; MR. HOLDER; \IMR. BRYAN; HON. -. R G.
MAPP, MR. VAUGHAN; MR.. MILLER; and J. C. MOTT-
Mr. CRAWFORD: Sir, in a matter of this
sort, to judge from the exhibition made by the Gov-
ernment, it is not very easy to decide how one
should approach it. I will give examples of what
I mean. The Minister right blankly said that they
are not making any profit on the operation of these
buses, but then said he never promised he would
make any profit. Well now, there are two basic
factors underlying the nationalisation of any indus-
try or service by Government. The first is that the
Government should feel that the service or industry
is essentially a public service and therefore must be
controlled by the state; the second is that since this
service is essential, it has to be carried o~n and has
to be utilised and since no private concern would
carry on without making a profit, if and when Gov-
ernment assumes responsibility for control and op-
eration, the normal profits which it would make
would improve the service that Government would
provide for the country. Well now, if the Govern-
ment starts off by saying we are not making a profit
and did not promise to make any profit, then you
are forced to ask what are the basic reasons for tak-
ing over the service, and when one hears that in
respect of many of these nationalised services, the
Government obtained taxes from the operation, it
is even more difficult to understand the position.
The bus companies and other bigger concerns pay
approximately $4,000 a year as Trade tax to the
St. Michael Vestry. They pay their Trade tax on a
return of between $30,000 and $40,000 a year.
They also paid Income Tax, so that with one
swoop the Government has been deprived of the
taxation paid by these bus companies; and one has
to add this loss of taxation to the overall running
of the service by the Government. You have to
wonder what is the approach of a responsible Gov-
ernment in a serious matter of this sort; one is forced
to come to the conclusion that if they are going to
approach a serious matter in this way, then little
children and fools have no right with sharp-edged
To quote another example of the ineptitude of
the Government in dealing with this matter, the
Hon. Minister said that the Government was minded
not to permit an increase of one cent in the basic
bus fares because, apart from adding to the cost of
living, there was this question of the school children
who live in the rural areas having to come to the
City to school, and the increased cost would fall
heavily on the parents. How seriously should we
consider this statement? If the Government were so
concerned with minimising the Transportation cost
of these children in getting to the schools in the
City, certainly they would consider constructing
more secondary schools in the rural areas. That
would be the necessary answer to that question. In
St. Philip, there is a new glorified school called the
Princess Margaret School; the Government has per-
sisted in running it as an elementary school so that
the children have to go to the Secondary schools
in the City. You have been amazed, Mr. Chairman,
at the enormous number of applicants who try to
get into Secondary schools every year; you have 800
applicants at Harrison College, you have a, similar
number at St. Michael's Girls' School and over 900
at the Modern High School. The answer to this
problem is not to sink money in a services which you
cannot operate, but to provide more Secondary
schools for the children.
A third example which had me so befogged that
I did not know how to take part in this debate,
io in respect of the bus service in Jamaica. The
-on vMinister went on to tell the Committee that
the Government is subsidising this bus service. Are
we to understand that this Government wants to
throw away money in subsidising the buses? The
Hon. Minister told the Committee that people who
are operating these buses in Jamaica are allowed to
bring in their rolling stock and so on free of dilty
Apart from that, the Government of Jamaica has naac
to give a rebate on the gasolene tax in order to help
them equate running costs with revenue. The Hion.
Minister might have told the Committee that the L.as
fares in Jamaica are very much higher than they uar
in Barbados. [Hon. M. E. COX: So is the gasolciie]
In Jamaica, you pay something like 6e. for two miles
which means that a comparable distance in this
Island, from Bridgetown to Top Rock would cost a
little over 12c., and to go to Oistins would cost some-
thing like 20c. in Jamaica. Here it costs you only
10c; ibut the Hon. ViMinister is much enthused over the
matter of having buses like those in Jamaica and then
heavily subsidising them. I am reminded of the
saying that a fool and his money is soon parted, ana
the Government has demonstrated itself as a fool. and
is throwing away the money as fast as it can.
The argument advanced today is that we have
inoney in the Treasury, and you have to provide a
Transport service for the public;- therefore the Gov-
ernment can afford to dip heavily into its coffers and
throw away the money. That is not my conception
of how a business should be run, whether it be a State
controlled or a privately-run business. I refuse to
make any reference to the Hon. MVinister's statement
tiat the bus service is being operated better than it
w as operated before. If out of the 116 buses which
ihey took over, only about 50 are licenced on the road,
34 are in the metropolitan area and 16 outside, then
you have 66 which are not in operation at all. When
the buses were in operation, the service wasi not
enoughh to satisfy the needs of the travelling public,
because the Government themselves called upon the
concessionaires to increase the number of buses.
Now the Hon. Minister has the effrontery to get up
in here and say that they have a be6i-er Transporta-
tion service than before.
OFFICIAL GAZE WET
JANUARY 3 1957
JANUARY 3, 1957
206 OFFICIAL GAZETTEI
I nave never seen more bus waggons carrying.
people about the road.; people are buying these small
waggons and using them in transporting the people.
You cannot have the service improved with less buses;
I have marvelled from time to time to see the small
number of buses which are on the various routes, and
1 have been amazed at hearing complaints all over
the Island, as to how long people have to wait for
buses to transport them. Yet we are told that the'
servicee has been improved! Improved where? If,
inii my opinion, the Government were minded to
nationalise the Transport service of the Colony, and
i we had the money to do it effectively and efficiently,
one could understand that. If the Government were
actually and really concerned with nationalization as
a political principle, we would today have been
owning a large number of shares in the Electric Com-
pany; and to be responsible for the acquisition of
capital by the .company, and the Government itself to
control the relevant number of shares in the Com-
pany; but we did nothing of the kind. We have al-
allowed the Government's financial position to be
used as an endorsement by the Electric Company to
the share capital it needed and today we do not own
cne single share in the Company, and that is a con-
cern out of which we could have made money. We
would have ensured that this Company would be run
efficiently under proper management and the share-
holders would ibe getting some return on their invest-
mnent, and therefore any investment which the Gov-
em nment had in the Company would show some profit.
Motivated by reasons which I cannot characterise in
parliamentary language, the Government has put
itself in a position in which it has to acquire the bus
icrvice; it talks glibly about nationalising Transport
on the one hand, and on the other we are told here to-
night that Government does not intend to keep the
-oncessions which it has acquired; it may keep one or
two of them.
9 20 p.m.
He said that eight applications were made for
these concessions but that nothing can be finalised
until such time as can be settled the purchase price
of the units. In other words, the Government in
tends as long as conveniently possible to permit pri-
vate enterprise to operate the majority of the con
cessions which Government has under its control. If
tnat be the case, why not make a clean breast of the
matter ?Why do they not let the taxpayers know of
what they are doing now, and what they intend to ,j
Are you going to do it; this year or next year after the
General Elections? They know that they cannot
run them; they know that they cannot operate them,.
they do not intend to operate them themselves; there-
fore, why merely set up a gesture in order to make
the public feel that there are at present some im-
provements just to hold out until after the General
Elections, when they know that the position is not
what they put up ? The Hon. Minister says that the
financial loss is $110,000. The hon. junior member
for Christ Church has claimed that the Auditor foir
the St. Michael's Vestry who investigated the finances
of the Board-
Hon. M. E. CCX: When did he investigate
MVr. CRAWFORD: The hon. junior member
for Christ Church stated that the financial loss of
the Board up to the end of Ma-rch was $175,000.
Mr. GODDARD: MVr. Chairman, I rise on a
point of explanation. It was not the Auditor of the
Vestry, it was the Auditor of the Transport Boardc
who made that statement. [A VOICE: Who is the
Mr. CRAWFORD: He simply said an Auditor
and I assumed he meant the Auditor of the St.
Michael's Vestry because I knew that the St. Mich.
ael's Vestry had instituted an enquiry in order to
know whether the Board could pay taxes. The fact
remains that a highly qualified Auditor assessed that
Board up to the end of March this year and found
out that the losses were $175,000. Of course what
the Minister told the House was that it estimated
that the operating losses would amount to approxi-
mately $110,000 $95,000 operational loss and
The Addendum says that it is estimated tat
the operational deficiency of the Transport Board up
to 30 June, 1956 will amount to approximately
$j i' 1' 00. It further says that it has not been possi-
ble 4n calculate the amounts which will have to be
provided for renewals and replacements. In other
words, the M2inistry and the Transport Board are
either incapable or undesirous of putting the true
position before the public. They are telling you that
it is not possible to calculate the amounts which will
have to be provided for renewals and replacements.
W hy not ?
Now, Sir let us look at the picture I before the
House for a moment. The Hon. Minister claims that
the losses are $110,000. Mr. Me Dermott, the Auoi
tor, said that up to the end of March it was $175,000.
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, it is more or
:ess unfair to that Auditor when the hon. member
makes that statement. He said just now that the
Auditor of the St. Michael's Vestry made $175,000
and then the hon. junior member for Christ Churen
corrected him. The hon. senior member for St.
Philip then got up and said that he was under the
impression that the hon. junior member for Christ
Church meant the Auditor for the St. Micnael's
\ estry. Now, he accuses Mr. McDermott for saying
that. I am saying that no Auditor ever told him that.
None could have said that.
Mr. CRAWFORD: I said that the Auditor
said losses were $175,000 and the hon junior mem
Ier for Christ Church and the hon. senior member
for the City both said that the Auditor was Mr.
MJc.Dermott. I prefer to err with them because they
know what they are talking about.
Hor. M .E. C(TX: The Auditor of the Transport
Board is Fitz Patrick Graham. [Laughter]
A VOICE: Mr. Me.Dermott is of the firm of
Messrs Fitz Patrick G(raham and Co., Accountants.
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, we have had
so many demonstrations of colossal ignorance by
the Hon. Minister of Communications that it is un-
necessary (I would say cruel) to accuse him of
further ignorance today. Everybody in Barbados
except him knows that Fitz Patrick Graham is the
trade name and that the firm of Accountants belo igs
to Mr. Me.Dermott. This Auditor said that the
operational losses was $175,000 to the end of March,
therefore to the end of June you can be sure that
the financial losses would total over $200,000.
Now. the Hon. Minister himself said that those
people who were running the buses are given the
right to write off annually 20% for depreciation. Let
us assume that the 116 buses which the Government
acquired represent a capital cost of $300,000. Oi
course, that is a conservative estimate. If you assume
that the capital cost of those buses which Govern-
ment acquired is $300.000, well then 20% deprecia.
lion would be $60,000 which you would have to add
to your operational deficit. On top of that. you have
to add the interest for the bus owners which is at
JANUARY 3, 1957
the rate uf 5%. As you will remember, Government
y promised to pay them 5% on the capital value of
the .buses from the time they acquired them until
Government settled the account. Therefore, 5% oni
$300,000 will be roughly another $15,000.
Now, Sir, sooner or later those buses will have
to be paid for, and in any industrial concern your
business represents a certain amount of capital in-
vestment: and any business undertaking, apart from
its interest and deprecation every year, must make
some addition to its capital undertaking; so on the
$300,000 which I have assumed represents the capital
investment on the buses which Government has
acquired, we must presume that the Auditors will
make some payment towards the capital cost. I will
put that figure to the conservative estimate of about
$25.000. Mr. Chairman, all that is without ainy
reference at all to renewals and replacements. Gov-.
ernment has come in here and told the public that
.95,000 represents the financial operational loss for
a year without any reference to the interest due to
-the concessionaires, without any reference to depre-
&cation and without any reference to renewals and
replacements. That is either completely hiding the
true picture of the situation from the public or that
they are presenting a most false picture to the
public, or that members of the Government are so
stupid that they do not know what they are doing
or that they are deliberately attempting to fool th.-
I can conceive that nationalisation of public
transport is a desirable principle to be followed by
any socialist Government [VOICES: No! No:'
[ANOTHER SET OF VOICES: Hear! Hear!]
I believe that transport is an essential public
service. It has to be provided for the public ar.d
therefore it should be run by the state; and I be-
lieve that the state should make something out of
it beyond a small operational cost and the profit used
in expanding the service and make it more efficient
for the benefit of the country. But Mr. Chairman, this
is an undeveloped, semi-illiterate colony in which
the Government cannot provide a quarter of the
essential services of public needs. We have about
twenty thousand children of school age, and because
of no compulsory education in Barbados and because
(he parents are neglectful and unmindful of their
responsibility, and this money we are going to
squander on the transport service could provide com-
pulsory education. It is all right to talk about Great
Britain's nationalisation of transport. It is the most
industrialized country in the world; they have got
free secondary education, hot midday meals for
children, national insurance schemes; twenty to
thirty thousand leaving Universities, most of them
come out not having contributed one cent towards the
University education; even higher education is par-
tially free, so they can get down to nationalising
coal, steel and transport although you will remember
that the Labourites nataonalised steel, then the Tories
3ame into power and there has been no talk by the
Tories of denationalising it but I would prefer
to see this money put into an industrial corporation
to start new industries in Barbados. As a matter of
fact, the Government is employing less people than
the concessionaires used to employ by throwing away
this amount of money annually and I put it at
$30,000 which is entirely irrespective of replacements
and I say you are going to spend this large amount of
money annually, and you are not going to give em-
ployment to another person in the island and you
cannot provide the services which the country re-
quire. Do you think, Sir, the average taxpayer feels
he will save one cent bus fare? Do you think he is
so ignorant not to know that if he does not pay it
here, he has to pay for it somewhere else? It may
.vell be true that the Government refuses to provide
free education or to provide more secondary schools
because they want people kept ignorant but there
are not as ignorant as they think. Do you think it
is right, Mr. Chairn.an, that this Government
approaching Dominion Status, complete responsi-
bility for all our affairs, should have this mass
ignorance in Barbados still instead of providing more
secondary school accommodation? Do not think you
eian run a country merely by teaching people a little
.rithmetic and elementary English. Every time you
want something done more than ordinarily above the
usual pursuit of Government you have to bring in
expert from outside; you are bringing a Q.C. for the
Transport, a valuer of valuing authority. The people
here are ignorant, and you are not providing any
facilities for more advanced education. All they are
doing is squandering every cent they can collect and
doing it shamelessly anin ignorantly. I would be will-
ing tonight under the circumstances to spend money
to make the running of the service more efficient,
and if the Government wants to demonstrate it is
capable of conducting public affairs in the highest
possible manner it is inescapable to begin with the
transport service and out it on a firm foundation.
It is no credit to Government to accuse people of
sabotaging; it is not true. The people working there
have been screened amd you cannot get a job. No
Sn-autborised person can get in there easily. To get
in there, you have to get in with people you should
not be mixing with and when they see the fruits of
rheir maladministration [ A VOICE: What about the
letters you wrote recommending people for jobs
there ?]-it is my duty to provide employment in the
public service wherever I can for my constituents;
and if they come to me and ask to recominend them
and I send them, that is my business. If the Minister
were concerned with the job as Minister he would
not be maliciously pushing his nose in the affairs
of the Board and telling them whom to employ and
whom not to employ. The point is, Sir, that the
Minister is supposed, if he knows what he is about,
to formulate a policy and to see that the policy is
carried out; but merely to be concerned with intrigue
and trickery and what not is not what is expected
of him. I know, Sir, I am fully aware that the Gov-
ernment knows that they cannot run the Transport
service ; they cannot even run one concession. If they
say they want 50 more units and they are recoin-
nm ',ding these $25,000 diesel jobs so strongly, 50
units at $25,000 is over $1 million. Where are yeou
going to get the money from? Then he tells us some-
thing about reconditioning buses which are in the
yard. Now, do you really believe Mr. Chairman,
with your experience of reconditioned machinery of
any kind that the Government has any right buying
reconditioned buses to put in the transport service !
9 40 p.m.
That is like putting new wine in old bottles
'rom the design of these buses, you can see that they
4: e antiquated; they are nothing which should be put
* n the roads in Barbados to-day. The honourable.
learned and gallant senior member for St. George
some time ago told the House that the tendency in big
Cities in Europe to-day is to utilise small buses, not
the big omnibuses which they want to foist on the
public. In Europe, the tendency is to use small
units which can be easily manoeuvred and which can
take passengers with the minimum of ease and oper
national expense; but they want to commit us in Bar-
bados in 1956 into enjoying the use of buses which
are out of date in other parts of the world, and con-
208 OFICA GAZTT JAAR 3,95
demned: and which are re-conditioned for the back-
ward areas by the English manuactarers. We do not
want any re-conditioned units, because they are an-
tiquated and must be expensive to run; and, in addi-
tion to that, they are too big. We cannot afford
these $25,000 buses; the experience in Trinidad and
jamaica is that the Government has heavily to finance
their operation. Is the Hon. Minister committing us
to a similar policy in Barbados in the future ?
There were one or two other points which the
lion. Minister made and to .which some reference
should be made; but what I am concerned with is
-whether we really want to be honest with the people
from whom we are buying these buses. I think that
we should put our cards on the table now and say:
"'We cannot operate these buses as we thought we
could do; we have found that the position is not what
we thought it was, and we are willing to arrive at
some amicable settlement in this matter." Instead of
doing that, in spite of their own practical experience
in the matter, they are carrying on this regrettable
state of affairs; they are holding the eight applica-
tions they had, and then, a little later on, some of
these applicants will be given the opportunity of ac-
quiring these concessions on God knows what terms
As a matter of fact, two different applicants have been
recently told that they can have concessions provided
lhey will pay cash for them, and provided that they
will pay the value agreed on by the assessors. They
themselves should advance something by now, as to
whether or not it is possible to maintain the existing
services and to improve and extend them on the cur-
rent operational revenue.
What the Hon. Minister should have done is this.
he should have come to the House with facts and
figures to show what are the costs of operation on any
given routes in respect of the concessions which they
,are now running. They should take any of the con
cessions which they operate and give us the maximum
figures for the period under review; they should give
us the figures for three months: in respect of any
route. They should tell us that the cost was so much
and it is likely that we will lose so much on the
particular route. They should let the House and the
Country know what are the prospects for the future
operation of the Transport service, ibut do not ask us
to agree to this expenditure of $110,000 and tell us
that in the near future we will be asked to vote money
in order to purchase either these $25,000 units or
second-hand rebuilt buses. I cannot agree with that;
there are too many things to be done for us to agree
to squander this money to-day. They are experience
i g difficulty in getting the money for financing the
Deep Water Harbour, and yet they expect us willing-
ly to support what they propose here. I am not vot
mng for this Rernlution; I cannot see any justification
for supporting it.
It is not what rhUy are presenting here. Are we
going to get a true stnte i nt of the losses after the
Elections? It is not f::ir to the country that the peo-
ple's taxes should be squandered in this matter when
there are so many things to be done. It cannot
possibly be fair. Let us assume that the employees
of the Transport Board are now being paid better
wages. By all means the best possible wages should
be paid to them, but they are paid better wages at the
expense of the Treasury. They should not be paid
better wages out of the Treasury; they should be pay-
ing better wages out of the increase in bus fares.
Why subsidise public transport ? Let us subsidise
flour instead. We took off the subsidy from flour,
and immediately after that the price went up by one
cent per pound. I believe the people will prefer to
get cheaper flour than to think that the public is so
heavily subsidising the part of the transportation sys-
tem which Government is running. Government is
only running a few routes. They are several con-
cessionaires who are still running their own service
and they are not getting any subsidy. We are spend-
ing this money on only eight routes: which means, Mr.
Chairman, that the taxes of the people in St. Joseph,
the constituency which you represent are being used
to enable people from other districts to travel. That
is discrimination against certain sections of the trav-
flling public. That is what it means and the irony of
it is that the Government is incapable of assessing
adequately and correctly what the true position is.
I would not be mindful of the best interest of
the colony if I allow this tragedy to continue. Mr.
Chairman, I am not supporting this Resolution and
I am sure and have every confidence that when the
facts of the case are fully put to the public that the
people would support the few of us who cry out about
this wanton expenditure by the Government.
Mr. ALLDER: 1Ir. Chairman, it is not enough
for the Hon. Minister of Communications to be right;
he must be clearly and immaculately right. I will
quote the "Beacon" of the 29th June, 1955: The only
member of this community who says that the Trans-
port system of this colony as controlled by the Gov-
ernment is better run now than ever is the Hon. Min-
ister of Communications. If there were an absence
of arrogance on the part of the MVinister. and there
was a consciousness to the expenses by the minions in
the Party who would guarantee the passing of a
Resolution of this sort, the Hon. Minister of Com-
munications and the Government would certainly
give to the broad public of Barbados the feeling that
they are willing to respect the people's opinions and
t"at they would do the thing which the public clamr
ours to be done.
What I am trying to do, Mr. Chairman, to-nigtli
is not to make an appeal to the Government in this
-:espect because the Government is so oblivious to coi
istructive suggestions and the public demands that it
would be a waste of time to make any appeal to them
What we on this side of the Table should do is to
make an appeal to public opinion and vP should do
more than that because public opinion in this colony
unfortunately has shown such a weakening of char
acter and determination when it comes to standing up
for the rights. We should carry the matter further
by taking the matter in our hands and putting it be-
fore the S'ecretary of State for the Colonies
The Hlion. Minister of Communications, irrespon-
sible and inefficient as he is, ignorant of his responsi-
ble position, may sneer at me but I regret very much
that we have to tolerate such ill behaviour on his part.
I am not speaking for myself, Mr. Chairman, I am
speaking for Barbados with its thousands who have
been told (not that they wanted it) that they could
not pay a cent more for bus fare; and bear in mind,
in the Report of the Committee which enquired into
the matter of bus fares, the recommendation on some
routes was as low as half cent. I am not saying
whether the travelling public was able or unable to
pay the increase in bus fare; what I am saying is that
the Government which should have taken its courage
in its hands; this Government which boasts of having
the respect and admiration of the people in this col-
ony should be honest enough not to fool them. But
this Government has fooled them in this respect. This
Government has told them that they cannot pay a
half cent per trip for bus fare directly out of their
pockets but is calling upon them to pay millions an-
JANuARY 3, 19 57
JANUAY 8.1957OFFICAL GZETT
nually to replace and operate the buses. It is calling
upon the people to replace those sums which conduc-
tors and others will unavoidably extract illegally. In
other words, this Government is saying that the
people will have to pay out of their pockets by way
of taxation that which garage operators will over-
That is dishonest leadership; that is dishonest
politics. It is better, Mr. Chairman, if your child
calls for honey, and you think it is better to give it
castor oil, to give it the castor oil. The child will
1 hank you in the long run. Gone are the days when
a Government such as this should resort to cheap
I regret, Mr. Chairman, that such a hard blow
has been dealt nationalisation; socialistic as I am and
C,s they claim to be. I have read a lot about national.
isation of certain industries. I believe in it. There
were days when I walked the streets without a penny
to buy biscuits, and so I was forced to believe that if
the State owned the wealth of the country I would be
able to buy biscuits. The Socialist Government which
we were proud to support when it first came into
power, I regret, has forced me to think differently
Now, Sir, the Government has taken over the only
industry which was built up by people who were
chauffeurs themselves, by people who started from
owning a lorry aind putting a tarpaulin on the top of
it to carry people and who carried on in such a way
until they were able to buy a bus. Indeed, some have
bedn able to buy a dozen and some two dozen buses.
The transport system in this colony was owned
by three-quarters of the people who sprung from the
gutter-hole and I think that if it were not owned by
fruch persons there would have been no suggestion of
taking them over. I would swear, Mr. Chairman,
that if M1usson and Company, Wilkinson and Haynes,
K,. R. Hunte and others [A VOICE: What about
Eckstein?]-do not mind Eckstein that was only one
ownership-but the bulk were owned by men like
Trotman whose mother worked farm ground; and
Stewart who drove a bus as a driver in the employ
of somebody; and Jones; men of that sort, and Miss
Rock in St. Andrew, a shop attendant. I want to
draw the public's attention to the false idea of social
ism which is practised by the Government opposite
me. Anything that can be run easily but which is
owned by English people, by the big financiers of this
colony and which would give greater and more ready
returns, Government would never think of taking
them over. The Telephone Company raised th'ir
rates every other week: [Cheers] the Electric Com-.
pany makes you pay more when they like and they
cut you off when you do not reach their demands.
Not a word is said: and I am sure, Sir, that returns
from these companies would have been greater thari
they would ever hope to get from4 buses. Results
have shown us the truth, but you know what happen-
ed? The Directors of the Electric and Telephone
Companies and other companies have their repre-
sentatives placed in the Executive Committee and the
Executive Council. The present so-called socialist
"roup, some of whose members sit on the Executive
Committee, come down here not with their policy but
a policy diluted by the representatives of big busi-
nTesses whom they allow to sit on the Executive Com-
mittee, notwithstanding the boast of having the most
wonderful constitution in the British Empire; and
here we are saddled now. I am wondering if the
Previous speakers fully realise the immensity of this
situation. The antics of our Minister of Communica-
Lions would give one the impression that he is too
small to rise to the occasion. He does not realise
what an important Resolution we are handling to-
night. His laughter, his sneers and his stupidity de
finitely betray his ability, if ever there was ability
in the Hon. Minister. [Cheers] What I ami stating
Ivjr. Chairman, is this: here it is, within a couple oi
months this small colony of ours shall be saddled
with the overburdening expenditure of the Federal
setup. Nobody knows the tune of the amount which
we will have to bear. Here it is, the community has
been clamouring for a 'T.B. Sanitorium for some time
The Government has gone so far as to make it possibL
for me to attend a function at which the consideration
of such a T.B. Sanatorium would be set up. Nothing
has happened in this respect yet, Mr. Chairman. At
the Hospital, every now and again they are changing
plans-and will continue to change the plans-until
iot one cent remains in the Treasury. Here it is,
you have three or four distinguished foreigners beinb.
taken around this colony and shown its amenities,
its superior amenities over those which obtain in the
other colonies, for the purpose of influencing them to
give Balrbados the only salvage which it hopes to
obtain from the Federal structure; and what d,o you
find during the presence of these worthy gentlemen V
There were examinations for entry in our secondary
schools and you found eight hundred persons apply
Ing for less than one hundred places. That shows
the stark need of secondary school accommodation
Should we give it to them or should we not? W.
should: because most of us here could only see for
tunate people going into the portals of such institu
tions, and to-day we are in power to give it to those
who would be more fortunate than we were, but
instead of doing that, what are we doing ? They are
I:rejudiced through pettiness, through cheap politics.,
and they are pushing such possibilities further an'--
further from the realms of achievement. [Cheers] I
want the Hon. Premier on whom we look over all the
years when I first entered politics for constructive
leadership, to ignore the pettiness of his henchmen
and other Ministers. I want him to realise you do
not have to practise cheap politics because this is
election year. His Government should be destroyed
for having resorted to it. The only reason why Gov
ernment has talked about nationalising the buses is
-because this is election year. The only reason why
he said bus fares must not go up, "they shall not go
up over my dead body," is because this is election
year, because the hon. member, the leader of the Gov.
erminent has carried up every possible charge in Gov
eminent within the past two or three years-increased
court fees, increased cost of stamps, increased duties
on rum, increased duties on vehicles, on cigarettes;
; they wanted to carry up fares on hawkers but we on
this side were too voluble in the matter............
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable senior mem-
ber for the City must not interrupt.
Mr. ALLDER: The Government, you must re-
member, increased water rates; everything that the
Government supplies has been carried up within the
last two or three years; these years were not election
years and now it comes to election year they are play
ing cheap politics. I am alone, lonely and weak and I
would like the Premier not to resort to that cheapness
in politics as a Leader. I would tell my people, 'Get
it straight: if it means you must pay half cent or one
(cent, pay it; because if I take it over, it will cost you
more indirectly." That is what they should have told
tnem. But here it is: the argument being put by the
JAN~uARY 3,, 19 57
210 FFIIAL AZETE JNUAY 3,195
Premier is of a bus owner owning six or eight bunga
lows! You cannot legislate on such cheap political
lines. You do not know if somebody gave them -to
him; because you may see him with a house or two,
are you going to legislate because of your prejudice
This is what the people would appreciate; a mai.
is great and strong when he realises that he has made
a mistake anAd is lbig enough to say: "I have at
tempted to do good, and I have made a mistake; io.
being infallible, I am willing to remedy it." 1 ie
only way in which they can remedy this .-iumu in
is to say boldly that they have not got any direct con-
trol over the dozens whom they have employed to run
the service. You cannot put an Inspector to watch
another Inspector, because the cost of doing that
will be too great. They should say: "We are not
going to continue to run the Transport service in this
Colony, and you would be surprised to know how
many people, even your enemies, would appreciate
your stand. Not even your supporters would feel
that a Resolution of this sort, calling for further ex
penditure in this respect, should be dealt with to-
night; not even your supporters would feel so, fur-
thermore your opponents.
As a member of this House, I cannot avoid thL
public meeting me and saying some people are accus-
ing the Hon. Minister for the breakdown in the Trans-
port service. I have said that you cannot blame him,
the Opposition is not strong with members and I car
only console myself with the hope that the Govern-
!Ient would not worry to keep these buses. You
-annot tell the intelligent public such as we have in
Barbados, that the Transport system is being run
I better than it has ever been run: You cannot cause
me to feel so, if a domestic has to wait at a stop pol ,
for an hour on mornings before she can get to work,
It is ignorance and stupidity in any minister who
thinks that he will cause a man who is suffering
from a pain in his wrist to feel that he does not
have that pain.
The Government took over the service with such
arrogance and pettiness that they allowed the slogan.
"This is we buses," to ,be used by all and sunudY.,
and therefore the Transport workers felt that the
buses were theirs, and the money went straight into
their pockets and not to the Clerks; the only persons
who did not know that were the Hon. Minister of 'ciim
iaiunications and the Hon. Premier. If the Hon.
Premier does not want the Transport service to be
continued in the Government's hands, then it cannot
be continued in their hands. I have known eases in
which conductors felt that inasmuch as "This is we
buses" they must take the takings. [Laughter.]
That has been going on from the second week after
the buses were taken over and it took 9+ months for
the Government to discover that. Because a Reso-
lution of this sort was going to be put before the
House, they dismissed Inspectors by the dozens, Con-
ductors by the two dozens and jailed some of them.
I believe that these steps were taken because of this
Resolution which is before us tonight. Last week an3
the week before, they wrote off and jailed people; and
before then, there were flagrant cases taking
place. What happened was that every misdemeaan-
our was kept under cover for fear of the public know
ing what has happened; but there are some of us to
whom things are brought as readily as or more read-
ily than they are carried to the Government or a
What is more, if Ministerial Status will bring us
to a state of affairs such as this, then I regret having
given Ministerial Status my blessing. Some or thit
government's supporters were prejudiced against
their having this iatIus, and I stood up and express-
ed the hope that hon. members will live up to their
expectations, If there was a single man who has
done _baroadcos any narm, (tne harm is greater be
cause of the position in which the lion. Minister .ia,
been placed) that man is the Hon. Minister of 'om
munications. The greatest blow which can be struck
at a Country is in its economies, because when itb
economics are squandered on the most unworthy.
both rich and poor will suffer. That is why I feel
that because of his pettiness the Hon. Minister is
ignorant of proper administration of business. What
has the Hon. Minister been doing? All you have to
do is to sit in the G41lery of this Chamber and when
the Hon. Minister is passing through the Lobby, go
and pat him on the back, and say "Those fellows
were wrong, you were right," and he is regarded as
a god. The Hon. Minister has recommended ap-
pointments, not because of ability, but because ot
friendship and servitude. If the Hon. Minister had
realized the responsible position which he holds-
Hon. M. E. COX: I do not mind the abuse, Mr
Chairman, but I would ask the hon. member to call
the names of people whom I have recommended for
Mr. AJLLDER: I cannot do that. The Hon.
Minister disregards rectitude and morality; he will
call your name even if you beg him not to do so.
Every member of the public knows whom he has
recommended for the appointment to the Department
of Highways and Transport and the Housing Board
I am not criticising the membership of
the Board, but it is us who have ,h.
public purse to protect. We do not expect the Minis
ter to be able to administrate all these Boards himn
self but according to the constitutional set up of
this colony, as is always drawn to our notice by the
H-on. Premier, we know the Minister has to recom-
mend membership to that Board. Everybody knows-
t.at there was dissatisfaction the day after the
appointments were made to those two Boards; and
if the Hon. Minister was not up in the skies and
was walking like a human being on the earth, the
would be able to hear the likes and dislikes of th(
travelling public who are in the majority the tax.
payers of this colony. Certainly, if I were the Minis-
ter, I would not like to do something which 99% o3
the taxpayers dislike because I would always be
y-eminded that they have to fill the Treasury owing
to this state of squandermania.
What has happened, Mr. Chairman, is that the
ion. Premier has introduced to this Hon. Chamber
within recent years something which prevents mem.
lers of this Chamber from being appointed to these
,Idministrative posts. All the twenty years that the
Hon. Premier was in this Chamber, and the other
people dominated the political scene of this colony,
ihey always saw to it that the best kind of persons
:o put on administrative and statutory Boards
-hould be members of the House of Assembly. The
IHon. Minister of Communications in his ignorance
Will sneer at what I atm saying now, but it is a fact
that when you have politicians on these Boards they
ahdays bring to those Boards the experience which
helped them to become a member of this Hon.
Chamber; and along with that, most of them have
had experience in business and administrative mat-
Sers. Therefore you start off with a certain amount
,of administrative experience; but when you go and
vet nondescript people whom you see walking the
streets of Bridgetown year after year because of
their lack of business acumen, and as a result no-
JANUARY 3, 1957 OFFICIAL
'ody gives them employment, and you make such
people even Chairman of an important Board like
that, you can expect anything to happen.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: That is not relevant to
what we are discussing.
Mr. ALLDER: M11r. Chairman, it is relevant.
f am discussing the membership of the Transport
Board. I am only sorry that after hon. members like
myself have finished fighting relentlessly in the
public interest this Resolution will still pass. It is
;o be regretted that after we have fought-the few
but yet strong voices in the fight for liberty, free-
dom 'and morality-we will still have to sit and see
tAose hon. members opposite to us voting for the
draining of the public. purse. I view the public purs'j
as a large bag held over an abyss by the five Minis-
ters and the Hon. Minister of Communications in
this particular instance has a big sword cutting the
bottom of it. [Laughter].
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Again I must speak to th
hon. senior member for the City. I hope ypu will be-
have yourself sometimes. This is the second time
that I am going to make an appeal to visitors in the,
gallery of this House to behave themselves and not
*o laugh and shout. If they carry on in that way I
am going to ask the Police Officer to put them out
[A VOICE: Oh no, you cannot do that.]
Mr. ALLDER: MIr. Chairman, I was saying
that when I sat here arud listened to what the Hon.
Minister of Communications had to say it was not
even considered a good trade. It is not capable of
any such term. I sat and said to myself: what a woe-
ful mess has politics in Barbados entered. A thing of
this sort does not call for personal abuse of
those whom the Hon. Minister feels would
abuse the Resolution. All that he needs to
do is to convince the public that what he is do-
.ng is right and he has not done that. He has with
innuendoes abused the unabused with the feeling
that whatever happens the Resolution will still pass.
As one of the stooges of the Government has said.:
'"man, we were over there and we know things are
bad but whenever the Opposition finishes braying, we
know the Resolution -vill pass." A ridiculous state
(f affairs like this can only happen in Barbados. I1
a failure of the Minictry of the Transport Service
hIad taken place, even as some members of the other
-;.de term it, in corrupt Trinidad, fthe Minister will
have to resign. Realising that he has failed miser-
ably, he would resign I am not suggesting that be
cause I want to fill the Minister 's bools.
Hon M. E. COX: You are not capable.
Mr. ALLDER: It does not take anything much
to suggest that another hon.member in this Chamber
s not capable.
It is because the Hon. Minister is not capable
that he can tell me now that I am not capable, because
i' he had run the bus service as efficiently as I feel
he should have been able to do, we could not have
been here passing this Resolution: because he does
know that when he handles anything correctly I al-
ways give my support as a member of this House, not
as an individual, to the thing which he is doing.
What I want to suggest now, Mr. Chairman, is this:
it is not the $200,000 we are voting which would
put back our transport service in order; this is only
the initial expense which we are being asked to agree
to tonight. What I am fearful of is this: in the Reso.
lution there is provision for $25,000 for the acquire-
ment of a bus.
Mr. Chairman, you do know, because most of
these buses stop at your service station, that they
cannot last in proper service for another year with-
out replacements. Every member of the public........
Mr. CHAIRMAN: I do not think it is fair to
the Chair to be saying that buses stop at my station,
It is not true and you should not be lying like that.
Mr. ALLDER: Mir. Chairman. I really can-
not object to your remarks in view of the fact that
the Chair is supreme in Committee, but you do know
I have been present when buses parked at your
place when you and I were talking. I am not going
-o be so small as to object to your telling me I am
lying, because I know members of the public have
seen buses taking gasolene from your station. I dc
not mean to suggest anything wrong, but it is true
nevertheless. You know that too. I do not mean to,
suggest any motives or bring anything against you.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: But you must not say things
that are not true.
Mr. ALLDER: I was not implying any ill motives,
but it depends on your attitude of mind. What
was trying to suggest is that you know the condition
of these buses, and most of the public do know it too
because daily we see one pulling the other along the
road. Most of us do see that and were never accus
tomed to seeing them in such large numbers being
towed in service on the road; and that is why I am
saying that the condition of these buses compels the
Government to replace every possible one within a
year. Now, let us start off fresh. We want this $200,-
000 odd. Let us leave that out entirely. Let us get
down to replacements within a year. If you have 116
)uses and this is one time the Government must
understand if they intend keeping these buses it is no
use keeping second hand rebored jobs from Englaind,
Trinidad, Jamaica, or Canada, because the only rea-
son I purchase a second, hand car is because 1 cannot
afford $3,000 odd and therefore having no Govern
ment funds at my disposal- [Laughter] I am not
suggesting, Mr. Chairman, that anybody who ha,
Government funds at his disposal can go aind buy a
car; what I mean is, Government can go and buy a
$75,000 bus to attach to the Highways and Transport
Department without thinking. I do not want the
implication to go over in a wrong manner, but what
I am saying is this: the only reason why I buy a sec
,nd hand car is because I cannot afford, a new onu
right now; and transport is a continuous grind of en-
gines; and in view of the fact that you cannot run
them this year and next year, you should not con-
sider the acquirement of second hand buses which
have been discarded by the Transport Authority in,
these countries. Therefore, having that in view-
and you have to know this business to appreciate.
what I am saying if you have to run the trans-
port service continually in the future, you have to
buy new buses: and each new bus as proposed, in the
Resolution would cost the taxpayers $25,000. I there-
fore envisage $2,500,000 being spent to purchase
r:ew buses to replace the existing ones. Now the
question is having a group of tcduncessionaires, old and
new, who are willing to take over the troubles of
transport in Barbados; should we ignore such an op-
portunity and commit the economy of the colony to
that unnecessary expenditure? That is clear, especi-
ally and in view of the numbers of other social com-
mitments which the Government has already. These
are things which the Hon. Minister must sit back
and think out. I am saying this: if you were to
take a plebiscite in this colony of ours, you will find
the majority would be against the continuation of
their possession of the bus service. It is all right for
a few friends to meet the Minister and, say "we are
running the buses" because being the Minister's
friends you can get a job; and can you imagine, Mr.
Chairman, you have dozens of people employed to run
the transport service? In some cases I have attempted
12- OFICA GAET JAUR 3, 195
to sympathize with the Government because the Gov-
ernment cannot be here, there and everywhere;
but what I get vexed with the Government for is that
they are not courageous and honest enough when
they make. a mistake to remedy it in a bold manner.
Do you expect the transport service to work when
you get employees like the efficient chief motor me-
chanic whom every possible person in this colony
knows is a responsible person-the man Applewhaite
-and you tell me a lot of youngsters can go there
and because the man is a disciplinarian-and this
is the type of man the Government wants-and be-
cause he tries to inject a measure of respect in the
service, those who are under him can say "we are not
working with him?" It is barely a hair's breath
that that man, efficient as he has always been, has
not got himself fired. What a set-up is this ? The;
Premier said they are not putting members of the
Government on the Board because too much pressure
w-ould be applied. What happens is that unless you
are friendly with the Minister you cannot get a job.
If I were to go over there as a friend of the
flon. Minister, dare ary man to fly in my face and
tell me to go and do the people's work! And if 1
got a dozen people to '-gree with me, we; could start
a chorus. A man with a sense of responsibility to
the public would have to get uneasy when such
-hreats are made against him. I do not know if the,
Hon. Minister has heard the current rumours; if
you were able to get a Harbour Police boat and
.comb the river, you would find a lot of bus parts
,n it. In such a case, are you going to allow the Gov-
ernment to destroy further the economy of this
,community by doing something about which you hear
dissatisfaction on the part of every member of the:
service? I head about saboteurs; the only saboteurs
_n this ease are the Ministers of the Government.
Fhey talk about nationalising the buses; they have
not taken the opportunity to see that they must
get workshops and that the accessories and gasolene
el c. are obtained outside the local people. They
-hould negotiate overseas and see that their gasolen,-
is delivered in the Government tanks and controlled
ty Government emplbvees; they should also im-
port their tyres, tubes and spare parts, and they
should comb the garages and get proper and re-
spectable personnel to take charge of the repair
of their buses.
They should not act on cheap politics, they take
over buses at 12 o'clock, and at five past 12 or on
the next day they have to revert to the people
who ran them. People are made to feel that wretched
life is paradise and Heaven is Hell. Hen. members
are prevented from saying what they really and
truly feel in this mutter. I am told that
with respect to this amount for which the Hon.
1VMinister has come, it is far from the real
amount of the Government's commitments to private
concerns. I would like the Hon. Minister to say if
the Courtesy Garage's bill is over $40,000 or not.
Sometimes it is good to help the Government t:'
put a rope around its neck. [Hon. G. H.. ADAMS:
You took a long time to think that out.] That is
not a long time; a few of us around here make it
possible for the Government to go in a channel which
makes people believe that it is a wonderful Govern-
ment, but sometimes things are so bad that you can-
ot keep silent. The Hon. Premier knows that
Now there have been conflicting statements
made by the Hon. Mil sister of Communications. At
one time, he said that he had received tenders for
concessions, I think he said that they were eight of
them; and that that number is still good for them
to be considered. If he feels that they are still good,
if he knows that that is a fact, what is the good of
asking this House to vote this $75,000 for the pur-
pose of building sheds That is just like the action
..f the Government in respect of the Lancaster
Factory when it was to be constructed; they spent
a lot of money to bring down a man from England
.to teach us how' to make clay bricks, then they
abandoned the project and private enterprise took
it over. I ask: if you have the concessions for the
eight tenderers, why a e you asking for this $75,000
for the purpose of building sheds for these buses?
They are talking about buying a new bus for
25,000; would a private investor commit himself
,o doing such nonsense? Why do they not get an
Adviser? Some of us have not been able to get
any experience in business, but surely we have had
to start from scratch and build ourselves up, even
if it is no more than selling a snap of rum for 12c;
that gives experience in business too. They are only
running helter-shelter in this matter.
I would really like to have a peep in at the
discussions in Executive Committee, because I be-
lieve that the Ministers are laughed at. I believe that
the Hon. Premier says: "Never mind we have other
people on the Executive .Committee, what we say
goes." There are other people who know when they
are hanging themselves but they just sit back and
do not put them right, or put them in their favour
1 repeat, if you feel that you are going to give the
buses to concessionaires, then do not let us spend so
much money to provide accommodation for these
Mr. Chairman, I think I have said enough and I
wish to conclude by saying that, regardless of how
employer and wherever there is an impersonal
much money you spend or how much you may ignore
constructive suggestions during the passing of this
Resolution, if you do not relieve yourself of these
buses now, the public in the future will hate you
for having kept them. I say that because I know
that the buses will continue to cost you more than
what they will cost private concessionaires to run
because the State is considered to be an impersonal
employer the employee is never encouraged to give
of his best because there is no one to pat him .nu
the shoulder and tell him that he is giving of his
!jest. That is what happened in the coal mines in
England. Regardless of what you pay inspectors
you will not be able to run them as properly as
private concessionaires. The last thing you have
done is to sack the inspectors, therefore you leave
the conductors to do as they like. Your maxim is
if two fellows have to benefit and you get rid of one
you save on the other. The question is: do you want
as a Government wh'el depends on the support cf
the same people whom you employ to put yourself
in the position where every day you have to create
another enemy? If you keep these buses, every
'ouple of days you will be adding to the number
of your opponents because you will have to criticise
them, you will have to lay them off, you will have
to fire them momentarily, and every man you fire
will become your perpetual enemy. As a Govern-
ment, you should adopt safer safeguards because if
fou have 1,000 supporters aud everyday you los.,
one you will soon not have any. [Laughter]
Sir, I can only do what lies at my disposal in
defending the interests of the taxpayer and Barba-
dos. Having done that i am hoping that the future
of the bus service in t1.'s Island will not be as shaky
as it has been over the past nine or' ten months.
JA N-U A R 3, 1957
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I am
having very little to say. I am not trying to inter-
rupt hon. members from speaking but I must say
at this stage that in my twenty years in this Cham-
ber I have never listened to a more irresponsible and
relevant harangue thap what we listened to frim
the hon. senior member for St. John tonight. I did
not interrupt the hon. junior member for Christ
Church when he was speaking, but as all ho-n.
members know, a Minister is responsible for the
running of the Government Departments under his
portfolio and he is only here to answer when you
have a matter which is run by a public corporation.
You cannot attach any blame to a Minister for the
running of a statutory corporation. If you do that
it is just that you have no knowledge of what Gov-
ernment means. Every single member of this House
has a perfect right to criticise the spending of Gov-
ernment money, whether through a Government
Department or through a corporation because it is
che taxpayers' money; but over and over again to
say that the Minister does this or that is to shoxw
.a perfect lack of knowledge of the most elementary
procedure of the running of Government.
Nobody stopped the hon. member when he was
speaking. He got the cheers and the thunderings ol
his colleagues, but he made one of the most useless
speeches on this matter. If a Minister has a Secre-
tary or Assistant Secretary who is in charge of the
Departments under his concern and he allows things
to go wrong, certainly he should resign. Under the
present set up we have here [A VOICE: Who
appoints the Boards?] The Boards are a vastly dif-
ferent matter from a Government Department.
Mr. Chairman, I am merely putting on the
record the actual position. It is immaterial to me
and to the Government (and that is not just words)
how often we are abused. I have been hearing that
for 20 years especially from the hon. senior member
for St.Philip who is only too eager to find the shelter
of another Party. It does not make any difference
to me personally. I d(1 wish to say this: we have a
Ministerial System but we are not even as far
advanced on the question of Civil Servants as there
is in Great Britain. It is hard lines that a Minister
should have to resign because a Civil Servant under
him does something wrong when the Minister him-
self has not the power of moving the particular Civil
Servant out of his Ministry; but he has to resign.
Therefore, you will see that a Minister who himself
might not have given instructions to do something
will have to resign because something has gone wrong
in his Ministry. Obviously, if he has no means of
controlling Civil Serva ts, it is hard for him to
resign because a member in the Civil Service for
whose appointment or dismissal or transfer he has
no control does something wrong. It is unjust. In
England, a Minister has that power, therefore any-
thing which goes wrong in his Ministry, in the last
analysis he can be heid responsible by his retaining
in his department a particular Civil Servant. How
can you pin a Government corporation on to a: hin-
astry? Hon. members have in front of them the Act
dealing with the Transport Board. I saw somebody
throwing it about over there. It is the Governor-in
Executive Committee which creates a public cor
portion and the only duty of the Executive is to
say [A VOICE: What is it that he is saying?
I am only putting it on the record for the benefit
of the public.
When you come to a public corporation made
under an Act and it is not efficiently run, it may
then become a question whether Government should
not repeal the Act and make the particular institu.
tion a Government Department; but you get here
and attack the Minister sentence after sentence as
though he is responsible. It is not a Government
Department. You appoint a Board to the best
of your ability and hope it works well. When the
shouting is over, I will still say what I have to say.
We have in this Island a Natural Gas Corporation
ard as far as we know we could not have improved
the personnel of the Board. I have already mentioned
to members that at least two Canadian Setnators have
told me that the present Head knows more about
natural gas than anybody else in the whole
Dominion of Canada. That was our good luck. If
however, we pass an Act, Mr. Chairman I am
answering the hon. member, it is immaterial to me
'f they laugh or shout, I am repeating it to the
public and it will appear in the Official Gazette.
You appoint a Housing Board the hon. senior
member for the City was a member so let him
ask himself if he would have tolerated in that posi-
tion any interference from a Minister or a member
from the Executive Committee. The hon. senior
member for the City happens to know something, it
is said, about housing, and therefore he was a good
member of the Housing Board, but if he were a bad
member of the Housing Board, would you blame a
member of the Executive.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: On a point of order.
That was a Board appointed by Statute. This is a
public corporation and the hon. senior member for
St. John was saying the Minister appointed the per-
sonnel of the Board. if you pass an Act and say
this is a public corporation, it can only be success-
ful or unsuccessful if the personnel appointed by
the Minister prove competent or incompetent. Who
can account for it bu& the Minister?
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: The hon. members on
the Other Side were not attacking the personnel of
the Board. The whole of their speech for the bene-
fit of the crowd was talk about election year. Who
is doing more electioneering in this island at this
moment than the hon. members who face me? The
argument is if you have a weak Board, change it.
That is not the approach, which would be the only
reasonable approach if they had the facts to sup-
port the allegations that the Board was ineffective,
ibut it was too good an occasion to miss with this
House so full of visitors as we have never seen it be-
Mr. BARROW: On a point of order, Mr.
Chairman: is the member for St. Joseph calling Your
Honour's attention to strangers in the gallery? He
seems to be by the remarks used to the hon. senior
member for St. John. Is the member for St. Joseph
calling the attention of the Chair to strangers ? Do
not let us talk about electioneering and that sort of
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: As I was saying, the
opportunity was too good to miss. They criticise
the Government over the running of the transport;
and any amount of untrue statements which
the member for St. Lucy comes out with makes it
look as if the buses go along and drop to pieces! All
these half-truths and complete untrue statements are
used to bolster up an attack on the Government! The
setting is suitable, and the hon. senior member for
St. John whom we have learnt to know as a person
who (all to his credit) speeds hours and hours
preparing his speeches has in the interim departed
from the text of his speech to put in morality and
immorality every now and then for good measure
Mr. ALLDER: On a point of explanation, I
should like to inform the Hon. Premier that I dc
not study a speech or enlarge it. I get up impromptu
and speak according to my personal feelings on the
ignorance displayed by the Government Bench.
JANUARY 3 1957
214 FFIIAL AZETE JNUAY 3,195
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: I was trying to com-
mnend him for spending the time preparing his
speech; but he wants to put it the other way! If
he prepares his speech and gets the facts right he
would not make such mistatements as he has made.
he has asked what is the sense of asking for $75,000
to construct work-shops. As to the clay schemein
can there be a more glaring instance of a reckless
mis-statement? This House passed a first-class Bill,
a Resolution for money to get it going; the Other
Place threw it out and yet he talked about our
starting a scheme and then discarding it. That is
his disregard for speaking the truth.
Mr. ALLDER: Mr. Chairman, I do not like
to object to anything said against me in this Cham-
ber because I know such statements do not make me
what I am not. I would not worry to ask the mein-
ber to withdraw that s-.tatement, but the hon. mem-
Der cannot refute that the Government did spend
large sums bringing Mr. Brannam here, and al-
though the Other Place did not go favourably with
the Resolution, the hon. member knows he has a
weapon whereby he could have Mr. Brannamr
brought here again for the factory set-up ; but the
hon. member did not want such a knowledge to be
possessed in the island, at least in the position of
Government and he allowed it to die. If the Other
Place turns down anything this Chamber sends up,
he knows better than I do the weapon at his dis-
posal to use to override them. He did not use it then.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: I would not honour
Lhe member by replying to that, but let me assure
him that the Other Place would have thrown it out
a second time. [A VOICE: What about a third
tir e?] It is absolutely immaterial what opinion
hon. members have of me and if I live to be as old
as Methuselah I would always be like that. Utterly
and, absolutely indifferent! But what I do say Sir, is
-this: when the hon. member reads his speech again he
will see it is one long: slinging attack on the Hon. Min-
ister for Which he has no right. You appoint a Board
and hope it does well. The personnel of the Board
has been changed and I am not exchanging any
secret over the fact that new members have been
- appointed to the Board, but I will say this again:
When it comes to a public corporation you choose
what in your judgment you consider to be men who
will run it effectively. If you discover you cannot
find the best people or the people do not give you
satisfaction, it is a matter for your consideration
as Government whether we should not make it a
Government Department, in which case you are re-
sponsible for running it. But to get here tonight
sentence after sentence attacking the Minister! The
Transport Board is not the Waterworks; if it were
the Waterworks Department, he deserves every'
word said against him if it can be proven. I
hope that hon. members have read the statement
"one swallow does not make a summer", and you
assume because one bus hit a post or bridge and
was damaged that therefore all will fall to pieces.
The Government from the first moment appointed a
Commissioner to investigate. The Government can-
not go further than that. I do ask hon. members to
ask themselves whether the personnel of the Board
has always been the same.
When it comes to the question of a public Cor-
poration, it is a matter for the Government to consider
whether the establishment of a public Corporation is
the answer to this or any particular problem. Ours
is a corporate responsibility. I deprecate strongly,
and I would be failing in my duty if I did not men,-
tion it, this pandering to the popular delight of hear-
ing evil of other people. You throw mud on a man
and every little drop of mud induces laughter; ou
if you say what a line fellow he is, people will wonder
ii it is really true. Especially iaced with the prob-
lem of not knowing when there will be a General
Election, anct fearing that wnen the Election comes
he may not be successful, I can well understand the
attitude of the hon. senior member for St. John.
Mr. Chairman, I have nearly finished; I deplore
the fact that not one single hon. member, when at-
tacking the Hon. Minister, has) given the Government
any credit for having appointed a strong committee
to investigate every single reported act of conduct on
the part of the Staff of the Transport Board since it
has started. In addition to bringing down Mr.
Gibbons from the point of view of running the ser-
vice, the Government has appointed a Committee
(composed of Mr. Osborne of the Income Tax Depart-
mient, P'arfitt of the Water Works Department, and
MIr. Herbert Williams to enquire into the complete
working of the Transport Board from its inception,
including every reported case of conduct on the part
of the staff. We have not been given any credit
for trying our best all the time; instead of that, the
hon. senior member for St. John talked about petty
politics. The word "petty'" is too big a word for the
hon. member 's harangue tonight; all he thought was
that this is a first-class opportunity for him and he
may get a few pats on his back when he goes down
the stairs tonight.
Mr. VAUGHAN: The Hon. Premier has made
(ne-half of the speech which I intended to make. I
Lave a note here to this effect: "If the Government
were responsible for the running of the Transport
Board, the things which have gone wrong there could
not have gone wrong, because Government Depart-
ments are always debated in this House." I repeat:
"If the Transport Board, were a Government Depart-
ment, what happened there could not have happen-
ed." The Government did not create the Transport
Board as a wish of theirs or as a declared policy of
theirs; they created the Transport Board to run the
bus service of this Colony, to carry people to and
fro, because an emergency had been forced upon
them. The concessionaires put up an ultimatum to
the Government saying: "Let us charge more; we
must get more fares, or we do not run our buses."
What was the Government to do ? Was the Govern-
ment to allow the people to be left stranded on the
Government? There was no choice about the mat-
ter. [Mr. E. D. MVIOTTLEY: That is not true.]
For months negotiations were going on with the con-
cessionaires, and the Government offered them a re-
eate of 15% on the gasolene as a substitute.in lieu of
the raising of bus fares, that 15% representing
$65,000. Afer the concessionaires were offered
that subsidy of $65,000, they refused it and they
wanted a 50% rebate on the gasolene which would
have amounted to $217,000. If the Government had
acceded to the request of the concessionaires, there
would have been a deficit of not $95,000, but a deficit
Sentiment, or passion, or abuse is one thing;
but the cold figures preach another thing. These
are the facts which I have stated. I have even in my
notes here an example of the running of the Natural
Gas Corporation. Let me repeat, it was not a ques
tion of choice, it was not a question of doctrine, it
was not a question of socialist ideology., it w'as a
question of absolute necessity. The concessionaires
refused after a certain date to run their buses. What
was the Government to do ? It was forced upon them.
If Government had failed to take over the buses,
they would have failed in their prime duty to the
JANUARY 3, 1957
JANUARY 3, 1957
citizens of this country. I commended them then,,
an;d I commend them now.
Whatever is wrong with the Transport Boa'rd
(and admittedly a lot is wrong with it) let us change
the membership of it and if Government cannot get
a proper Transport Board, make it an arm of the
Government a Civi! Department and run it.
It is very well for some.hon. members to talk about
Government increasing the wages of Lhe drivers
and conductors, and the same drivers and conduc-
tors who regard this as their Government have
operated against it. Do you think they have done
that of their own fr,.e will? They have been in-
fluenced to do so by interested persons who are
determined to see that this Government corporation
does not succeed. There are interests in this colony
,vho would do anything to prove that anything
which Government sponsors must fail and the suc-
cess of the Transport Board would be a defeat to
such interests. The happenings were near enough to
allow those interested to operate, and it is my con-
viction that those interest have operated in in-
fluencing people who regard this Government as
theirs to commit certain sabotage against the public
Mr. J. C. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, the
last hon. member who cpoke has changed the tenure
of this whole debate. All the other hon. members'
argument was to the effect that this Government
,vilfully, maliciously and vindictively grasped the
t!'ansport system from the Bus Concessionaires and
utilised it to their own purpose. The hon. member
who spoke before the last, knows that the Govern-
raent was forced into this position. When con-
ditions like this arise, they call for sober reflection
on the part of hon. members so as to be able to
arrive at a satisfactory solution in resolving the
Sir, all the hon. members have painted a woe-
ful picture on this matter of public transport, and
I want to say that it is really in a bad and deplorable
condition; but the Government started out with
good intentions, and as you know, good intentions
do not always get good results. When this Gov-
ernment was forced into this position, it did not
have the nerve to do the right thing. The right
thing to do was to look at this situation squarely in
the face and see that the situation demanded a rise
in bus fares. If that were done, we would not be in
this position today but we are in this position and
we must find a way out, come what may.
Mr. Chairman, if the travelling public or the
conductors and drivers have the interest of the pub-
ic at heart, as regards this public transpIort service
these conditions with which we are confronted today
would not be in existence; but everybody who knows
something about it, knows that there is some sinister
influence at work to prevent the successful operation
of this bus service by Government.
Sir, on my way from home in St. Philip to the
City on these buses, many times I have to argue about
the way these buses are operated by the conductors
and drivers. If these people had maintained these
buses up to the standard which obtained when the
private concessionaries had them in hand we would
rot have had the trouble we are having today and it
i.s those conductors and drivers who have got better
wages. Havetihey given better service? That is a
question which hon. members should answer.
My colleague made some statements with which
I really do not agree but the time will come when I
will reiterate them. There were statements which
lie never used to make when I sent him to this Houst
I do not know if the Government in coming down
with this Resolution for this money is doing the right
thing. I think the right thing for this Government
to do is to get rid of these buses as quickly as they
can. Give them back to the concessionaires and get
new ones. However, in the mean time they have to;
carry on, therefore you must give them the money to
That is what I feel but in the mean time
they nave Lo carry on so we have to give them
some money to carry on with. Get them off your
hands because the general public does not seem to
be with you, so therefore get rid of them as
soon as possible. Isay they have got to carry on so
we have to give them money. I do not know about
finding snecs. tmink you can cut out that, if possi-
ble. We have got to nnd the solution and nna tit
quickly because this, Sir, is one of those conditions
that need immediate remedy. I would not say th%
Government was entirely right in taking over the
buses but they were forced into this position out of
a clear sky by the concessionaires with "either you
meet my demands or you take them apid run them"
and the Government was bewildered and had to ask
them to carry on a week longer until they could take
them over, and the Government thought with the co-
op(eration of all and sundry they would make a suc-
cess of the operation of these buses, but they failed.
Whether this is election year or not, you have got to
face the facts that you failed in this enterprise and
should get it off your hands as quickly as possible,
end I believe the public will be with you in the elec
tion and bring you back here. [A VOICE: Do you
really think so?] Do you think they are going ti
bring the D.L.P.? That has u doubtful father and
a doubtful mother, and the general public
will do well to examine who was the
father of that party. I know the father and
mother and I have no dealings with them.
This new omnibus might be necessary for experi-
mental purposes, Sir, but I think it is a lot of money,
to experiment with. These last two Items Nos. 13
and 14, I think we can do without if we are dispose.
ing with these buses. We do not need them and I
would advise the Government to examine the utilisa-
tion of this money in that respect. Get rid of these
buses; this nationalisation is something we cannot
stand in this island. We have not the talent or the
ability to operate a nationalised utility successfully
[Cheers] I want to assure Government that I am
in hearty sympathy with their dilemma and they can
rely on my support because I was sent here by men
and women of the suffering public, and when they
sent me here they told me "1ottley, I know you and
your colleague cannot do much, but whatever meas-
ure Government brings to the benefit of the people
support it", and no electors can say I am not doing
that. If I had to face the electors to come back here,
one could not stop me on that because they cannot say
I am not supporting Government with measures for
! he benefit of the improvement of my people. There
are a lot of ideas going on that my people forget the
position they were in eight or ten years a;go. Remem-
hl-er who was the direct cause of the amenities they
a.re enjoying now. [A VOICE: Who?] Not you,
Sir! From morning I get up arguing for the im-
provement of my people to now. My colleague and
I are not seeing eye to eye. He has deviated from
that course we have followed seven years ago and I
do not approve of his deviation. He has not told the
people in St. Philip yet. [A VOICE: You do not
come to the meetings!] It is all right. I am fighting
for the poor and the under-dog.
Mr. Chairman, with these few remarks, Sir 1
a,m appealing to the Government to use their best
ingenuity to solve this bus problem. There are some
things that we will never succeed in as long as you
hold them in hand.
Mr. ALLDER: No remarks could be more
heartening than those coming from the hon. junior
memberr for St. Philip who is a permanent supporter
(if the Government, and when he makes a suggestion
like that it is sufficient to have some effect on the
Government's decision to keep these buses. I was
definitely and deeply surprised to hear the hon.
junior member for St. Philip. In respect of my
'colleague I cannot say I appreciate very much the
points which he made and as a 'matter of fact it ap-
pears as if he were not sufficiently convinced of his
statement and it caused an apparent burst of his lungs.
What I would say is this, Mr. Chairman, everybody
knows that the hon. member has corrupted what
would otherwise have been a wonderful political
career. [A VOICE: Who?] My colleague-
Mr. CHAIRMAN: You must get on with the
MVr. ALLDER: I am getting to Resolution.
The hon. member insinuated that wrong charges
were being made against the Minister and against
the Government in respect of the running of the
bus service. What the hon. member does not know
and what he pretends to be ignorant about now is
that whatever happens over there ajt the public
Transport Department, the Hon. MV$inister has got
to give his sanction before any Board can attempt
to put it into practice. Everybody knows that. The
only person who does not know that is my vacillating
friend- [A VOICE: Are you really serious?] I
am serious and more than that. Who created the
Board? The Government. Who is put responsible
for the Executive running of the Department ? The
MmLinister of Highways and Transport. Who recom-
mended the appointments to the Board? The Minis-
ter for Highways and Transport. It is he who is
handling the Resolution. He is responsible for the
running of the Department and we r'ould not come
and attack the Boaird and accuse it for any wrong
running of the Department. It is the Minister who
comes to us to get our approval for the continual
running of the Department and it is he who is re-
sponsible, and what is more the Board did not bring
this Resolution here; it is the Minister for Highways
and Transport and it is Goverment policy-.
That is the Government's policy. Does nmy col-
league want to tell me or the Committee that the
Board decided that they must have a bus for $25,000
as an expedient? That is the policy of the Govern-
ment and the policy of the Hon. Minister. Does he
want to say that the Board constituted as it is, wanted
to erect accommodation costing $75,000 to house buses
which the Hon. Minister has said they are about to
give to the new concessionaires ? Let my colleague
change his path; do not let him play the game of a
lawyer, that is to say, if I get there first then I aim
.Mir. VAUGHAN: I am not at all flattered; if
I am playing the role of a lawyer, other people be-
-ides me feel Ithat I would have made a good one.
As far as vacillation is concerned, I do not think that
the pot should laugh ait the kettle. I began my pol-
itical career as a member o0f this Party: I have return-
-d to it, and I have no apologies to make to anybody.
I shall never fail in defending this Party when it
should be defended; I have told my colleague before,
I told him during the consideration of the vote in
-respect of the visit of Princess Margaret, that the
people of St. John have sent me here, and it is on
them that I have to depend. I have lived to see the
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member must
keep to this Resolution, because other honourable
members must do the same thing.
1VMr. VAUGHAN: I am keeping to the Resolu-
t!ion. (This is a quotation from the speech of the
honourable senior member for St. John when the Gov-
ernment created the Transport Board. This is what
"Sir, I am going to vote for the passing of this
Resolution because I feel out of a sense of responsibil-
ity I should not do anything to tie the hands of the
Government but I hope they will"
Mr. ALLDER: The honourable member is read-
ing from a slip of paper something which purports to
be a part of my speech, and I do not remember having
made any such remark-l. If the honourable member
is permitted to present a slip of paper and read some-
thing which purports to represent a part of my
speech, I do not think that that should be done. The
proper thing to do would be to get the report of the
debates handled by the Clerk of this House. I must
object to the honourable member quoting from my
speech remarks which I do not remember making.
Mr. VAUGHAN: This is nothing against the
Mr. ALLDER: I object to the quotation to
which the honourable member ha,s referred as repre-
senting a part of my speech.
1Vir. VAUGHAN: At page 1414 of the Official
Gazette the honourable member's speech appears.
This is what he said:
Sir, I am going to vote for the passing of this
Resolution because I feel out of a sense of responsibil-
ity I should not do anything to tie the hands of the
Government, but I hope tTiey will reciprocate the
feelings which I have expressed."
Mr. ALLDER: I have heard the honourable
member criticise the speeches reported in this House.
I am not hiding under that; I do not say anything
to-day which I cannot repeat to-morrow. I did not
a;sk the Government to reciprocate anything; I said:
"It does appear to me that this amount of $30,000 is
only a drop of the amount which we will have to
spend on this issue; and I ani appealing to the Hon.
Premier, not the Hon. Minister of Communications,
v ho I feel should be more responsible, to see that if it
cakes five days or five years to negotiate with the
present concessionaires to continue to do so; do not
(lose your floors [Chieers.]
My attitude was this: having been injected with
the virus of nationalisation by the Hon. Premier, I
felt that if this Government were as Socialist as it
pretends to be, it was attempting the first phase of the
principle of nationalisation, and therefore I would
not stand in its way, although my support did not go
without caution. That caution was correct, because
iwe see now where this matter has cost Us more than
it should have cost us. That is the position. I do not
see why the honourable member should cheer; it all
proves that they did not take any heed to my caution,
otherwvise my speech, instead of being what it has
been, would have been singing their praise for having
embarked on the first stage of the nationalization of
the Transport system of this Island.
JANUARY -3, 195,7
JAuR 3,15 FIIA AET 1
Mr. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, there arc
just two points I want to make and the first is this:
an attempt has been made to throw a smoke screen-
in the eyes of the public on this matter There has
Leen a red herring thrown across the trail as
regards the responsibility of the Hon. Minister .of
Communications and the Transport Board. I want
to say for the explanation of the public that we
on this side of the Table criticised, not what the
Board has done or fail to do, but the policy of the.
Government itself as demonstrated in the Resolu-
tion before the House. What has been done is merely
a" attempt to draw a red herring across the trail.
It is merely an attempt to becloud the issue for the
Government to say tonight that the Minister of
Communications has no direct responsibility for the
actions of the Transport Board when the Board is
not responsible for the Resolution before the House.
Mr. Chairman, th, Board does not want to buyv
a new diesel bus for $25,000, nor has the Board said
it wants $75,000 to accommodate buses. Those things
are aspects of the Government policy, therefore we
are justified in criticising the Government and the
Hlon. Minister of Communications on those grants.
The final point is this: my colleague, the hon.
junior member for St. Philip, has seen fit to express
opposition to certain views put forward by me. It
is his right to do so if he feels that they conflict with
his views, but I object more strenuously and em-
phatically to his implying that I am not fulfilling
the pledges which I came to this House to fulfil. He
himself has told me that his reasons for supportimt
the Government Party are twofold. The first is that
the hon. member does not want the session to come
to an end before the five years he was elected and
the second is that he is not certain --
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMVIMINS. Mr: Chair-
man, I rise on a point of Order. I think you said
that members should slick to the Resolution.
Mr. VAUGHAN: You ruled that in my case,
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I did rule that members
should keep to the Resolution but the hon. senior
member for St. Philip is replying to something
which has been said by the hon. junior member for
St. Philip. As soon as he strays, I will stop him.
Mr. CRAWFORD. Mr. Chairman, if I am
forced to state what those inducements were, I will.
state them. However, Sir,- ( To Mr. J. C. MOTTLEY:
you are elected for five years. If you fail to continue,
that is a matter for you) but I am prepared to vote
for what I think is in the best interest of the people.
As regards the offering of inducements, it is not the
first time that people whom I brought in here have
succumbed to the blandishments of the members or
the opposite side of the Table and have done it to
satisfy their own personal interest at the expense
of the interest of the public. As regards the hon.
junior member for St. Philip, I warned him that
those inducements will never materialise. It is true
that they might materialise now, but they have been
-anging over for a very long time now.
Mr. J. C. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I do
not think any useful purpose will be served in. my
replying now to the hon. member.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I am
merely rising to say this: I have never ever, in spite
of what any person may say, offered any inducement
to anybody to join or rejoin the Labour Party.
Never ever have I done that. I do not believe a word
which the hon. senior member for St. Philip ha ,
,said because it is utterly impossible for the hon.
junior member for St. Philip to have. told him
that. I have never tola any hon. member that I will
put him on the Executive or anything of that sort.
I have never held out any inducements whatsoever
10 any member or anybody to join or rejoin the
Ltabour Party. I will go on oath in saying that .
Mr. CRAWFORD: I am not surprised that he
will go on oath with that.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: That is the end of that matter.
I am not entertaining aiy more of it.
Mr. CRAWFORD: What about Mr. Talma and
Mr. Blackman on the Executive and every one of
Mr. CHAIR.LMAN: The honourable member is
breaking the Rules of this House. The honourable
Member is calling honourable members by their
Hon. C. E. TAL1VA: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a
point of Order. I want to bring to the attention of
the hon. senior member for St. Philip, it is entirely
this House and the Island as a, whole that at no time
have any inducements been held out by the Hon.
Premier to me. In so far as the statement made by
the hon. senior member for St. Philip it is entirely
untrue and unfounded and deserved no recognition
by any right thinking member of the Community.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I
promised myself that I will generate no heat in this
debate. As a matter of fact, Sir, I have heard on
more than one occasion that it is because of the re-
marks made by the ho,,. junior member for St. Peter
and myself on one occasion in this House that the
Government has found itself taken up with this
matter of bus transport. Well I hope that is not true.
As you know, Sir, loag before this matter of bus
concessionaires and the question of the public trans-
port system came before this House, I as a member
Af the St. Michael's Vestry had to fight with certain
concessionaires, (or at least the Vestry had to do so)
and I think that where, that fight was going on, the
ilon. Premier who was then practising at the Bar
had the opportunity of defending one or two of the
bus concessionaires who had refused to pay paro-
chial taxes. At that time I felt very strongly in the
matter; and if you will recall, Mr. Chairman, on the
.trat occasion that this matter was discussed in this
House I took a particular stand and I am going co
take that stand again tonight.
As far as I am concerned, the sixteen questions
asked by the Hon. Leader of the Opposition were
discussed by my party and we felt that in fairness
to the general public these questions should be an-
s wered by the Hon. Minister of Communications.
You will observe, Sir, that the first question asked
is what is the policy of the Government in con-
nection with the Transport of the Island. That is
the first question and upon that hinges the entire
criticism which we are offering.
If I head right, Sir, the Hon. Minister said that
ine decision of the Government relative to the Tran-
port of the Island..
Mr. CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. senior member
for the City continue?
If I heard right, Sir, the Hlon. Minister said that
which we asked in respect of the Government policy
on the transport, of the island-I want to take this
along logical lines because when I am through I can
justify my position for not voting for this at all. In
other words. I am not going to vote for this but 1
must justify it logically. The Government's reply
lo the Leader of the Opposition to question one is
that their policy is the same when they took over the
buses; and they are trying, to carry on this transport
system, and at present they have eight applications
and the applications remain the same. In other
words, they have said today that while as a socialist
party they believe in nationalisation. it is not their
policy to nationalise the transport system of the
Ja~uaRY 3,, 19577
21 OFICA GAZTT JIA~ 3, 1957
island. [A VOICE: Who said so?.'] If the hon.
member wants to correct it, please say now that they
do not intend to nationalise it. They haye said at
this stage that they do not intend to nationalise it.
The hon. member said so here today and if the Prem-
ier is going to contradict that, would he please say
so now. I am trying to argue this as logically as
possible. They do not intend to nationalise. I foir
one am very glad to hear that. The records will show
how I on the last occasion voted because I felt my-
self it was a question of Hobson's choice put to this
House. The -Government negotiated with the conces-
sionaires and after some negotiation they reached a
final day on which concessionaires said they would
give up and continue to run no more. That is the
reason why I voted for the sum of money to operate
the transport service until they got some settlement,
and the settlement were given then was that they
would advertise for new concessionaires offering then
the concessions apnd they would at least have it run
again by concessionaires with different conditions
Now, I take it from what the Minister said in reply
to the Leader of the Opposition that the position re
mains the same. We went on to ask, Sir, among'
other things, how many concessions Government did
take over. The Hon. Minister said they took over
eight and that they have since given back one. In
other words, they are fourteen now in the island;
seven are being run by private enterprise and seven
presently run by the Government. But let us allow
ior the shortcomings and the unfortunate position,
I say unfortunate, the Government found them-
selves in at the time in August 1955; that is, that
they had to take them over because they had to con-
tinue some sort of service. Now, I want to know
what has not been answered to the satisfaction of the
Opposition; having advertised and having eight ap-
plicants, why they have not given out the concessions
to these eight people? I heard in a sotto voice voice
for the first time something about the price, but we
have the notes made here, and the Minister may have
imagined he may have said that, but we are asking
what price was asked. Let me accept the answer
given now by the Premier-the question of price.-
I do not know what he means by price. If it a fact,
have operating all over the island are still making
money-and I would, like to say here a-nd now that
that statement cannot be disputed because these con-
cssionaires have iheen returning, not only in this
parish, but in the other parishes where they operate,
trade tax and I think I am in a position to say with
authority they have also been returning income tax.
If therefore the seven that is being run by private
enterprise are now returning a trade profit, it is diffi-
cult to understand how you have been able to throw
so much money away in so short a space of time. It
is true to say the representation which has been made
to Government when they set up to investigate the
question of increased bus-fares-they recommended
taking an overall picture of the income, that they
were not making sufficient revenue and as a result an
ultimatum has been given and I say Government took
over temporarily, and established authority for the
formation of a Board and the Board was set up. I
want to draw this to the Government's attention.
Let us forget anythinro about nationalisation, just let
us look at it this way. The Government set up a Com-
-nittee as a result of representation made to us to in-
,rease bus fares and that report has been rightly
read by the Minister who said "We could not get the
necessary data of the number of passengers carried
and so on and we will not recommend an increase.'
It is strikingly strange that Government on immedi-
ately setting up or taking over the concessions which
they took over, before having, (at least I am hoping
this is so) any information to the contrary, went
About it and the first thing they did was to say we
could not find !books or sufficient data to tell us how
many passengers they were carrying for the recom-
mendation of an increase. Government said and I
agreed then and now they were not going to increase
the fares, but the Board which was appointed by Gov-
nument-and let them deny this-Who was the
Board? Vjr. Chase, who held every other job in the
island. I remember well what I said: with all of the
slanderous remarks about this gentleman apd what
not that this Board was doomed to failure, Chase
failed in everything he went into and he failed the
next morning he was appointed, and he was at that
time also employed with the Gulf Oil Company.
I am trying not to generate any heat; I am try-
ing to put the true position clearly. The Govern-
rient were told that this business did not pay,' but
they appointed a, Board and on the next morning,
the Board increased everybody's salaries, and paid
to a number of men more than what the Companies
had paid. You took over 8 concessions from these
concessionaires who employed 100 men; instead of
working for some time, for a month or two, you
decided that you wanted five times as many In-
spectors as were formerly employed. I should like
to say this: if you want the praise, then you must
accept the blame. Th, Hon. Minister tried to im-
press upon this House how the deficit was made
up; the Government paid more salaries, which
amounted to $55,000 You wanted the praise for
'saying that you took over the Transportation set-
dice, and you started off and paid more money,
without seeing how the business would work. Who
else would have done that except they were told to
do so by the Minister of Transport? Must the Hon.
AMinister not accept any criticism for the action of
the Board? The Boar-d under the Chairmanship of
Mr. Chase, told you next morning-I am presuming
tnat the recommendations must come from the
Board-" We cannot see how we can run without
100 more men, and without putting on 25% of this
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: If the hon. member
reads the Transport Board Act, he will see that the
Board may employ servants at such salaries as the
Governor-in-Executive Committee may approve. .We
do not appoint chauffeurs, conductors, inspectors or
anybody else; the Board must make recommenda-
tions to the Executive Committee and the Executive
Committee approves. We approved increases in sal-
aries to employees.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: You accept that critic-
ism, but you do not accept the responsibility. Who
else but the Governm-rnt would say: "We take over
this business today; we do not know what profit
you made, but the first thing we will do, is to in-
crease salaries?" [Hon. G. H. ADAMS: We paid
a decent wage.]
The criticisms offered by the hon. senior mem-
ber for St. John are perfectly in order. The Hon.
Premier could hardly gct out of this; who else would
nave done this? Are you going to pay a "spy"
more than you pay a conductor or driver? [Hon.
G. H. ADAMS: All over the world inspectors get
ni.ore than drivers.] Do not talk nonsense; Mr.
Chase recommended that an inspector was worth
more money than a driver and therefore they paid
the inspectors more than the drivers and conductors.
That is one phase of the matter in respect of which
I do not see how the Government could expect not
to accept any criticism.
SBA~uARY 3,' 1.9577
The Hon. Minister of Communications must
plead ignorance of any knowledge of Transport. If
the hon. member had been in the Taxi business still,
and he had been running his car, do you think he
would have decided to pay his drivers more money
immediately until he knew what the income of the
business was? How can you ask this Committee to
level its criticism purely on the Board as a Board?
The Minister who is responsible must accept the
As far as I am concerned, I say this: if it is
Lrue that you have 1no intention of nationalising
your bus service, in all seriousness, then tell us so,
but do not-
Hon. M. E. COX: I do not know where the
hon. member was when I said that. What I said was
that certain people had applied for concessions;
these tenders remain good, but it is the Government's
intention to continue the running of this service with
the ultimate aim of running the Island's Transport
Mr. GODDARD: The honourable member has
now said that for the first time to-night. He said that
it was the intention of the Government to keep one
or two of these concessions. I asked what are the
reasons for the Government retaining these Con-
cessions but the Hon. Minister did not answer.
Mr. Chairman, he said that now for the
first time. He said today that it was the intention
of the Government to keep one or two of the conces-
sions and I asked him: "for what purpose?" The
question was never answered. Mr. Chairman, I
(hope when the debate is recorded that the Hon.
Minister will come back here as a man and say that
he agrees with the record.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: It was the first question
and I pressed upon the Hon. Leader of the Opposi-
tion to ask it again. This is the first time that the
[ion. IMinister of Communications has said anything
about that. The Hon. Minister said that he told the
Committee that they would keep one or two of the
buses and I asked the Hon. Minister to repeat that.
Hon. G. H. ADAMS: I just want to say that
the Government has never made any secret of its
intentions as regards nationalisation but the Govern-
ment wanted experience.
Mr, E. D. MOTTLEY: The Government started
off with nationalisation. I said to the Hon. Leader
ol the Opposition that when they come to find out.
what is the overall cost of the Transport system and
.they insist about nationalisation it would be infi-
nitely better to nationalise the Electric Company. It is
not any new thing for the Hon. Premier to
has not abandoned nationalisation. I think after
their fInal analysis of the bus situation that they
"would be infinitely better to let private enterprise
carry on with it.
Thb hon. senior member for St. Johi said that
the 7.5 500 with which you propose to build sheds
to houe the buses seems to him a waste of money.
f am 'so of that opinion. As a matter of fact, the
TIon. Minister has not told the Leader of the Oppo-
sition where it is proposed that those sheds should
be nut nO, therefore, we want to know something,
,L.ont that. As reg-ards the $25,000 for the -14-seater
diesel omnibus, all I would say is that it will be good
at times if some of us would travel by buses. What I
wonder is this: Does Ihe Hon. Minister think that
that bus is the one which we need in Barbados tak-
ino- into consideration our narrow roads and our
transport system? It has been drawn to our atten-
tion that the Directors of Transport in Engoland and
Amnerica have had to reduce the size of their buses
and put into operation a bus of a smaller size. I
regret very much that under the circumstances I
cannot support the purchase of that bus.
As to the idea of -he Hon. Minister speaking of
graveyard buses, it is a fact that that type of bus
is known as a graveyard bus. As soon as those
buses have done anything in the vicinity of 150,000
miles they are put in what is called the graveyard
and they are remodelled and then reshipped to places
which want them. People like Colonel Julien are
famous for obtaining them and then shipping them
to other places. If you travel to big countries you
will find that some of those buses are just like the
ambulances which Colonel Julien gave you. Of
course, the Hon. Minister said that they are going
to consult the Crown Agents on the matter. I do not
know, but they must know whether it is well that
they should consult Crown Agents. Nothing we can
do will persuade them not to invest in such buses
or not to invest in this new 44-seater diesel bus. I
woald only say, speaking for myself, that it is most
regrettable that the Government has not seen fit as
yet to settle the matter as regards these applications
for concessions. The Government should get that
matter settled once and for all, because on the face
of it, you have divided your island transport system
into 14 sections and y.ou have not heard one of the
seven concessionaires who are running their buses
privately saying that it is not paying them. They
are perfectly willing to carry on. May I ask you
this question? Here it is you have seven conces-
sionaires who have b:.en carrying on. Have you as
ye'; suggested to any of those applicants for new
concessions that you will take A, B. 0. or D? I
would like to know what is keeping back the Gov-
ernment from awarding those concessions to the
eight applicants or so which you have.
I heard something about price but let me ask
this again. There is no possibility of having the
Same and going into it and asking if they will
rake over these buses which you have. Now, every-
Lody knows and I am putting this to the Govern-
rent you had to take over at a time to fill the
each b.ca-se of the dead-lock. No one could be
a'noyed if during the period when it started to run
and you found you were going down the hill and
you found you could inot carry on this as a system
-o, decide to approach the eight concessionaires and
the Government sued the proprietors for part of the
expense. It would be better to do it that way. There
is no two ways about it. For you to carry on the
transport system of this island, it would cost be-
tween two or three million dollars and I cannot
imagine any Government outside the Mental Hos-
pital wanting to carry on transport system as it is
now. What I am saying now, is this: you have
wasted a lot of money in the appraisals for the
various companies. We realise we had to give in,
we had no proper management, no proper sheds, and
we have got to account for a certain amount of de
preciation. Could we not see it is better to drop
$30,000 now than to go on as you are doing? That
is a business-like approach to this question. But
let me saiy while I put the suggestion it might fall
on deaf ears. You come here for $75,000 to build a
garage. Would it cost you more than $75,000 be-
t-wveen what the ex-concessionaires are asking and
what the new ones are asking? And this House
would be more than unreasonable if they did not
appreciate that because you did not have the where-
withal; and anyhow it is a great thing you had to
pall back on Chase. God help you! Chase was
Chairman. [A VOICE: He was not Chairmarn;
Anyhow he was a member of the Board. I am coming
JANUARY 3 1957
220 OFICA GAET JNAY,15
down so that, I am suggesting here to you tonight
that it would be infinitely better, and I still share
the views that it should be impossible for you to
have seven and say you are making money and give,
the other more. Therefore, mind you this, MI.
Chairman, this is diametrically based on nationali-
sation and I would have no objection if Government,
eame with a policy ano said we are goirg to nation-
olise. They cannot face that because the Premier
agrees we would have to spend much money on a
new Hospital first. We share your view about the
Hospital, therefore, you should allow private enter-
prise to carry on the transport service and you
should come and face it clearly. Do not come and
ask for $75,000 to build a shed and what not and
still know you have to have these things. If you are
going to nationalise, come straight out and do that.
I expect this House would have to accept the valua-
tion put upon' these buses, but we do not have the
wherewithal, the depreciation, because the seven are
making money and paying income tax and trade
tax. You are silently awarding concessions and
.drawing your 40%o of the profit without paying out
one red cent so why pay out a lot of money here, and
you have got to admit this. I think the only per-
son who would not admit this would be the Minister
for Communications who has said that the transport
service of Barbados has been ran better now they
are run by Government than when they were owned
and run by private enterprise. It is only when you
have great antipathy to the truth that you can say
things like that. No one can expect that the Min-
ister has not really heard criticism from every pos-
sible angle. The Premier would be shocked because
-he transport service has become shocking. You have
2got to admit it is absolutely shocking. This is what
I have to say; if you are going to naticnalise now
and you agree you have more essential services, call
a spade a spade. Do not come and build sheds for
these buses. Come and say we have got this amount
of money and finish. Get rid of it one time, I would
not vote one red cent to buy a bus for $25,000. Are
you satisfied with the even concessionaires who run
the seven concessions to the other parts of the
islands? Are you satisfied the public is given good
service? If not, it is your duty to do so, or if you
can say the seven vill give good service or you,
believe they will give us good service, it is your duty
to award it to them. We have had in applicants,
so we cannot allow' the people to suffer even if you
must drop money every month for the transport
bus when travelling. I remember following an ex-
service. What I say now is what happened with a
excursion since Government took over. They had a flat
tyre and had to wait two and a half hours to get
a tyre. If you, Mr. Chairman, or any other Minister
Were running those chartered buses to the excursion
to any part of the island, you would see it had a
spare tyre. Do not let anybody fool you. There are
so many people to look after that you must face the
facts. You know you have other essential services,
so on the other hand what happens. You appoint a
St. John talk about sabotage. There is a feeling that
Board and I heard the Minister and the member for
a black man in this country, unless you are the
type of man who is prepared to go on with Govern-
ment and so on, will sabotage anything. I have had
chis experience and I believe the Premier should
nave this experience.
You have people who are strong supporters of
the Government, and I know that they are people
who were willing to offer their services to the Gov-
ernment, but they are not "yes-men." If I hap-
pened to be in the Government or close to the Gov-
ernment, and I had to look for people to put on
the Transport Board, I would look for people who
had some experience in dealing with transport
btiness of some sort, even if it is hauling molasses
or anything like that. If you are running a business
and you succeed with it, it will be said that you
are a smart fellow; but if you should fail, it will
Le said that you are a fool.
They would rather bring down somebody from
England who would know nothing about this busi-
ness and take his advice. .You have a man like Mr.
Evelyn who had been running Lancaster and wno
knew when the engine was not working well; but I
ask; who is responsible for appointing these people
to the Board? Mr. Roy Gill or Mr. Evelyn could not
have made the recommendation to the Government
to take over these buses and appoint these 25 Inspec-
tors. Do you think that either of them would
commend that you appoint these Inspectors and
pay them more money than you are paying the
drivers ? That is wrong. Mr. Chairman, if they had
asked you anything, would you have said, "I would
pay these Inspectors more than I would pay a
driver ?" In other places you have an Inspector who
comes along and you never know where he is; you
have a conductor, you just have a driver, but here
you have a man who is working all the time and an-
other man just sits under a; tree and waits until the
buses come along. What then do you expect?
When the hon. junior member for St. John says
that the people of this Country have been sabotaged,
does he mean the bus concessionaires? I should like
to say that is felt that if you have a Socialist Gov-
ernment advertise for loans from whom do they have
to get them? People will lend you money when you
advertise for it, and therefore it is reckless dishonesty
to talk about sabotage. What the hon. senior mem-
ber St. John has said is quite true; you want to make
some small-time people believe that you are a god on
wheels going around. I will not be contributing to
anything of that sort.
You may be a classical man, you may be learn
ing the humanities, but you are not a business man.
When I first met Mr. Manley, I said: "I know
you have been professing to be a Soleialist, but 1
Jiave the greatest respect for you, because immedi-
ately as you got into power, you decided that even
the most rabid Socialist, if he must meet any success,
he must have an economic adviser." When anybody
says that you are ignorant as to business conditions,
co not take umbrage at that, because there is no
point in taking umbrage if you do not know any-
thing about these matters. I tell you quite candidly
that what you really want is an adviser in these
I was surprised to hear the hon. junior member
for St. Philip make the speech which he made. He
oas told you what the position really is; there is
great dissatisfaction, and therefore let us face the
facts. You are asking a man to come here from
Trinidad to tell you about the Transport system;
well, I am going to say something which, if you were
in business for 20 odd years, you would appreciate.
I suppose that when this is, all recorded, somebody
will curse me. The Hon. Minister has said that this
gentleman came in and discussed the question of
buses and what not. I am just askdng them to be
I asked that question just to be sure. You say
vou are going to try out this 44-seater diesel bus.
The Hon. Minister has rightly told us what has hap-
pened in Trinidad and Jamaica as regards that type
oI bus. He said that they have tried them out and
JANuARY 3, 1957
JANUARY 197 OFICIL GZETT 22
they have railed. If I were you I would not make
that blunder. You should use that money for other
,services. I will put it to the Minister: do not vote
this money, come back and say to this House that
vou have erred. That is human. Do not fool yourself
I need not speak in this strain because I repre-
sent the City of Bridgetown where it does not mat-
ter whether bus fares go up or not but I am speak-
ing from the depths of my heart despite what any,
Minister or Government might feel. This Goaverin-
mnent is headed by the Hon. Premier who is fright-
f ally ignorant of the real business situation when it
comes to running the buses. Let me suggest this to
you. Before you bring anybody to tell you how to1
run your Transport system, you must give them a
brief before they are going to tell you how it should
be run and the next thing that will happen, is that
you will find yourself buying buses which that per-
son want to sell to you. Bear in mind that a man
does not come out to advise you on these matters
unless he is interested in this sort of thing. He has
all sorts of offers before he comes here. I am telling
you that the next thing you will know is that
you will be like Trinidad or Jamaica as regards this
bus situation. Even if you nationalise it, you are
going to find yourself in the same position. Do yoiu
know the reason why? To make a success out of
running buses, the concessionaires have to put in a
tremendous lot of work and have to be up early in
the morning and all through the day looking after
the running of their concession. You must have
known by now that as soon as somebody is em-:
ployed by Government he says that it does not mat-
Let me say this: When I caused the Vestry' f
St. Michael to investigate into the accounts of the
National Bus Company, that Company had the best
bus service running in the Island. I have been in
those buses then and recently and I can say that
they are in a terrible condition now. Let me say
chat they are nasty and stink now. I am telling you
uhat no attention is paid to them. What do you
find? We are told that the Government is not re-
ponsible, or that the Minister is not responsible,
but that they appoint a, Board to run the transport.
They choose the people to run it. I am not suggest-
ing for a minute that they should select to any of
those Boards people from one particular walk of
life. I am saying that you should not pick people
to place -on Boards just because they make you a
little god on the earth. You must do things which
will benefit all the people of the Island.
Mr. Chairman, I promised myself that I will
not generate any heat on this matter. I am going
to ask this question: have you done anything to
merit your nationalisation of the Transport system
Now, you cannot say when will you nationalise it.
nor can you say that that is your intention. If you
share our views or we share your views, there are
other essentials which should come first. I will say
this to you now. Get this Transport out of your
hands as quickly as possible. As long as you are
satisfied with the persons who have applied for the
concessions. you should grant them their request.
Am I to say that I understand rightly, Mr. Chair-
man, that while you have given back one concession
to a former concessionaire (Mr. Birch) that one of
the applicants for a concession has been written a
letter offering him the Yonkers Bus Service?
Hon. M. E. COX: You will always hear that.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: The Hon. Minister says
that I will always hear that. I understood from a
reliable source that you offered the Yonkers Bus
service to Mr. Alleyne but he said that you will
have to pay the cash money which the man charged the
Government. He has received a letter telling him
that he will have the Yonkers. Mr. Chariman, I
am telling the Hon. Minister of Communications
what I have heard. I understand that the price is
$35,000 as has been fixed by the valuers. I under-
stood you told him to pay $35,000, but that there
seems to be some difference of opinion on the mat-
ter. Why should you bring somebody from Eng-
land to tell you what the buses cost when you took
them over? That is nonsense. Mr. Chairman, I am
addressing these remarks to the Head of the Gov-
ernment. If the valuers have valued them at $35,000
and there is a difference of opinion on that, the thing
to do in my opinion is to get back in your valuers
and let them know that the $35,000 is what he
agrees to accept as the valuation at that time but
during the ten months they have depreciated by
t5,000 or a figure like that, and that seems to be a
reasonablee sum to pay for them- now'. Why not get
Jhem off your hand now? Not only would you get
them off your hand when you accept that amount
but you will be getting the service run.
You talk about these reconditioned buses. Let me
put this to you: do you know that I have heard
from tourists that while the buses which you will
bring from outside are very comfortable that the
buses which you have now' suit local conditions better
than those because they are airy? Do yyou know that
the type of buses which ydu have is first class for
the colonies? Do not let anybody fool you. They
can be reconditioned to look as new. It is the engine
that goes. Put in a new' engine and put the new
Vyres, paint up the body and you have a new unit.
What do you think they are doing? They have a
chassis and as long as they get it painted up and put
on tyres and put in a new engine they have a new
bus working. They are getting down new engines
and putting them on the old chassis and that is what
htas been happening. I make this, statement. I
know there has been a man, who incidentally is a
Barbadian, and who is connected with the parish the
Hon. Premier represents, and he can get second hand
buses like Julian put on the people down here. Let
me speak no ill of the dead. One time you had a
Director of Public Works, he was a Civil Servant-
'the hon. member can sneer. Happily for me I do
not depend on such people to put me here. He was
a Civil Servant and you reached a stage at one time
that no kind of toilet bowl could not be put in any-
body's house-unless it was a Tyford. This is not
speaking ill of anybody; this is merely saying when
you come to (business you see this. I smile at this
type of diesel, and you have other types with the en-
gine in front. What I am worried about is this.
Have you taken into consideration that the length
would be difficult to get around certain corners ?
Have you taken that into consideration? Have you
saken into consideration the question of having it
swag around ? I say it would be a sensible approach
,nd I would back it one hundred per cent if you
withdrew this and ask for a certain amount of money
to nav off these debts and be satisfied that you have
good bonds and let the people run them, and every-
thing would be all right. Op course I would not be
surprised to hear somebody say I have friends who
applied for them. Mr. Chairman, I think I have
given my views to the Government. I think I have
been perfectly mild indeed; I have outlined the ques-
tion of the transport system and I would like to say
this: you know a tremendous lot more can be said
because as the Leader of the Opposition told you,
you have 106 buses and have only licensed 34. Who
else in Barbados on this third day of Jjuly could be
running" a set of buses not licensed and possibly not
JANUApy 32 1957:
222~~~~ OFIILGZTE -i~ ,15
insured to the danger of the public ? You have al-
crady said this is a Board and you know they have
not been licensed, the reason being they cannot pre-
sent insurance papers to the Treasury. Today is the
4th of the month and they are running, and do you
realise if anything happens tomorrow you would 1e
backing the Board; and what I anm telling you is
that Government has to back the Board in case of
damages. Look at it squarely in the face; you are
l responsible for the damages. Mind, you, I see your
feeling is that this is something where revenue can
be made for the Government and you have a right to
satisfy yourself. You cannot say you are doing like
Jaimaica or Trinidad or of course London and New
Y ork where they subsidise quite heavily and give out
concessions on account of the density of the popula-
tion to move off in certain cities at certain peak hours.
If you take a route like Black Rock where you have
five buses running, the Hon. Minister of Social Ser
vices will see all five going in at one time and you will
have to wait until they go to town and come back up.
What the hon. junior member for St. Philip told you
was correct.The people are not with you with it; get
it out of your hands. You are absolutely wrong and
(I suggest to you to get them out your hands. I do not
think I can do any more under the circumstances. We
have asked for a lot of information and you have
given us very little. There is just one more point
which I want to make. I have heard that buses had
gone to garages and they were over-charged. I made
discreet investigations. Now you know I am one of
those people who as Chairman am in charge of a
fleet of trucks belonging to the Sanitary Commis-
:ioners. Do not fool yourself that I do not send them
around. I give everybody some and I was shocked to
find a bill for general repairs and overhaul for
around $900. I made investigations. We have had
very strong men on the Board who made very strong
investigations into the question of parts and what they
paid and then I made investigation into what was
paid by the Government. Personally, I am in a
. position to say here and now that if they over-charge
you, they have doubly overcharged us. I was shock-
ed to see the price of the rebored jobs. The jobs
were in the vicinity of $700. That is the price
which they charge today and I sug,.st strongly that
this talk about sabotage is not fair to the people who
if they wanted to sabotagp it would be the easiest
th ing for any firm of leading solicitors in Bridge-
town to say if the Government wants loans do not
lend them a cent. But they have so much confidencev
in you that they put up all the money; so how can
you in the same breath say that there is sabotage,
Sir, I finally say I cannot vote for this. Take the
rooney you are going to build sheds and stand the
difference between the depreciation and what the
prices would be and let them give back the buses-I am
not talking about giving back-there are certain peo-
ple who do not want them back, but, there are others
who have applied for these buses and these applica-
tions still hold; or you might be able to do what the'
Hospital or the Government decided to do with the
Mr. CHAIRMAN: The question is
Hon. M. E. COX: Mr. Chairman, before you,
put the question, I should just like to say that there
has been no doubt quite a lot of abuse and slander
land nastiness which has come forth from supposedly
lion. members, more particularly, the lion. senior
member for St. John. There is no doubt
Mr. ALLDER: The hon. member should know
by now that he cannot say that any hon. member,
bas resorted to the use of slander, nastiness and
that sort of thing. I would please ask him to with-
3raw those remarks.
Hon. M. E. COX: I withdraw them. From thce
speech which the hon. member has made, everyone
who has listened to him, will agree that he came
here for the expressed purpose of attacking me. I
promise never to sink to that level.
The hon. junior member for Christ Church
contradicted at length this question of losses, and.
he went so far as to say that I was mi leading the
Committee in connection with the Report of the-
losses. From the Auditor's Report, it will be seen
that at the end of the 31st December, 1955, there-
was a loss of $58,000. The figures as follows:-
Salaries and Wages $
Gasoline and Oil
Repairs and Replace-
Printing and Stationery
Lights and Telephone
Loss Carried to Schedule
Since then we have had a statement from the
Auditor from the 1st. January to 31st. March, 1956.
The figures are as follows: Fares collected,
$198,002.20, School Tickets $7,939.85; Charters,
$3,14:1.04, total $209,083.09. Expenses amounted to
$249,849.55 leaving a deficit of $40,766.46. It is
estimated that up to the 10th June the amount in
sundry credits would be $135,000 and with stock
together with bank balances amounting to $40,000,
there would be a deficit of $95,000. That, Mr. Chair-
man, is the position as it stands up to the 16th
June this year. If the hon. junior member for
Christ Church wants to see that with his own eyes,.
he will have the opportunity to come around here
ai-d look at the statement. If he doubts the propriety
or otherwise of the Auditors, that is a Matter for
him. I can only put forward what has been reported
by the Auditor.
The question was asked. Mr. Chairman, where
those buses will be housed. We have not yet decided
on the correct site but we are' hoping to site them
somewhere oi Governmeint lands. The provision is
made for a shed and the Director of Public Works
has submitted an estimate as follows:-
Surfacing Yard and
We are hoping to site them either at Comber-
mere or behind the old shed which was once occu-
pied by Mr. John Beckles. [A VOICE: That can-
JANUuARr 3, 19577
JAUR 3,197OFIIA AZTE 2
mot hold them.] We are not providing for 100
buses; we are providing for a maximum of 66 buses.
I need not refer to the statement made by the
lion. senior member for St. John, because the debates
have already shown that the hon. member supported
the Resolution and indeed all the other hon. members
present at the time supported the Resolution. None
had the courage to get up and say that we should
increase bus fares. They all supported the Resolu-
tion and it was unanimously passed. [A VOICE:
That is not true.]
Mr. HAYNES: I would like to be emphatic
on this matter. I am entirely in favour of the con-
cessionaires being given another chance. The Hon.
Premier made an aside saying that it was too late
to negotiate. I object that it is too late.
I made reference to the fact that you are now
-doing something which Jamaica has rid itself of as
well as Trinidad.
Hon. M. E. COX: Madam Chairman, every one
would agree that the bus service which we have in
Barbados today is inadequate. The travelling public
is looking forward to a better service whether it is
iy the Government or by the concessionaires who
-decided to continue. All through the trend of.
speeches made by hon. members, it was brought out
that the money which we came for at first was in-
sufficient, and we would have to come back for
additional money to carry on the Transport system.
That is in the debates. As a matter of fact, the hon.
junior member for St. Lucy went as far as to suggest
that we should uise money from the Price Stabilisa-
tion Fund which was at the time $6 million. He said
that a considerable sum of that money should be ear-
marked as a loan to the Transport Board to finance
the operation of those buses, because he opined that it
would cost something like $300,000 odd to have the
service run properly.
Madam Chairman, I realise that it is very late
or early in the morning of another day and I am
not prepared unless it is necessary to go all over the
Around I have covered, to reply to the speeches
made by hon. members. There is one thing which 1
would like to state quite frankly. The hon. senior
member for the City raised the point about our
offering back the Yonkers man his buses.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I have never said such
a thing. What I said was that the Yonkers buses had
been offered to Mr. Alleyne of Bank Hall and not
to Mr. Jones and that they were offered for the
price for which they were valued. I was suggesting
that he should pay a sum between what is the
depreciation for the time the Government had them
in hand and that it will be infinitely better for the
Government to stand that expense and that the
Government should act similarly with the other
concessions which they have. I was suggesting that
Government should call the whole thing a day, give
up the buses and they would be better off. I never
suggested that MIr. Jones should be offered back his
Hon. M. E. COX: I do not know where the hon-
curable member got that information from, but I am
sure that if that were so it would have to have passed
through the Ministry first for a decision to be made
by Government. That decision has not been made.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: Is the honourable mem-
ber saying this man has not been offered the Yonkers
Bus Company? That is the information which I have
had." He has been told that is the position and what
he has to pay for it apd that it should be paid in cash
and the argument is that he would not pay that for it.
What I am saying is if there is any disagreement on
the price to be paid to Government, make right the
deficit and depreciation for the time they had them
and call it a day. I will support that 1001%.
-Ion. M. E. COX: I said in introducing mn-t
Resolution that Government have not sold out these
buses because we did not know at what price we
would have to sell these buses. I went further and
said that there was no possibility of getting them to
take these buses; they would not be so stupid to take
them without knowing what they would have to pay
for them. But as I said the Government could not
have asked hinm to pay 'X' dollars until the matter
bad been decided by Court or by arbitration as the
case may be.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: On a point of further
explanation. Not for "X" dollars but for the price
m which the Government put to him. And I go further
and say instead of spending money in putting up
these sheds, you should pay the difference in depreci,
ation. You cannot expect people to pay for them what
they charged Government ten months ago.
Hon. M1. E. COX: The honourable member has
-said that the Board did not ask for any buses or for
any sheds for the buses. I would like to assure this
House that the present Board was appointed on the
1st April and from the time this Board was appoint-
ed they made recommendations to the M1Vinistry to
have 15 new buses as soon as, possible; and to say they
I'ave not asked for buses is not correct because before
the Board was appointed, as I pointed out in intro-
ducing the Resolution, about two or three months
after we took over the buses the Director of Highways
und Transport who was then Chairman, made repre-
sentation to us that we needed 51 new units. Now
,here is one thing I would like to clear up at this stage
;although it has not crept into the debate to-night, but
some time ago, Mr. Chairman, it was raised in this
House by the junior member for St. Lucy about my
approaching the owner of the Yonkers Buses asking
him to take back the buses now. [A VOICE: Your
friend told me so in your presence.] The position is
as: I pointed out long ago that it would be absolutely
no question of my approaching Jones or anybody
about taking back their buses because as I said Gov-
ernment had never decided on that: and indeed I
would be the last person in the world to put myself
in that position where if it were decided not to sell
buses to people like those, then the individual could
get up on a platform and pass it on to the senior
member for the City and to the public.
Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY: I was present when his
bosom friend, Mr. H. A. Tudor, told him so, and
Mi. Tudor said he telephoned him at 4 o'clock in
the afternoon and told him so; so why raise the
question and bring me into it. All I said was, that
I was present when your bosom friend told you
Hon. M. E. COX: I would say briefly what
happened. A few Saturdays ago I went to the Public
Market and I met Mr. Tudor who told me about
this telephone call. I took him to Mr. Jones' house
and after discussing the matter, Mr. Jones assured
me that he was satisfied that it was a trick, and he
told me he would immediately telephone his counsel
Mr. E. K. TVacleott whom he had previously in-
fc.rin r about the matter. I hav.- every reason to
believe Mr. Jones did it.
The question; that the Resolution dco now pass
'vas put and resolved in the affirmative the House
dividing as follows:
Ayes: Hon. G. H. ADAMS, Hon. Dr. H. G.
H. Cu MMIN, Hon. M. E. Cox, Hon. C. E. TALMA,
JANuaRY 3, 1957
224~~~ OFIIL AET JNAY ,15
HIon. R. G. MAPP,. Mr. HOLDER, Mr. BRYAN, Mrs.
BOURNE, Mr. VAUGHAN, Mr. J. C. MOTTLEY-10.
Noes: Mr. GODDARD, Mr. BARROW, Mr. TUDOR,
Mr. ALLDER, Mr. HAYNES, Mr. E. D. MOTTLEY,0
On the motion of Hon. Dr. H. Gi. H. CUMMINS,
seconded by Hon. M. E. COX, the CHAIRMAN re-
ported thd passing of two Resolutions in Corn-mittee
Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair and reported
On the motion of Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CTJMMINS,
seconded by Hon. M. E. COX in each case, the Reso-
lutions passed in C(onmitted were read, a first and
second time and agreed to.
Mr. TUDOR: VMir. Speaker, before the Order
,P'aper is fixed, I am asking the leave of the House
to move the passing of the Address of which I gave
notice earlier in the day. The Address reads as
The House of Assembly
His Excellency The Govermor
The House of Assembly is of the opinion thai
.some record should be made of the signing of the
Order-in-Council setting up the British Caribbean
2. The House therefore respectfully requests
Your Excellency to consult the Governments of the
participating territories with a view to securing their
approval of an entreaty of Her Majesty the Queen,
thajt Her Majesty be graciously pleased to permit a
departure from custom by allowing a photographic
record to be made of the signing of the Order-in-
3. The House makes this request feeling certain
that the citizens of the future Dominion should be
able to follow with pride the unfolding chapter of
their history and affectionately associate Her Majesty
4. The House further suggests that, if the Gov-
ernments agree, the Commissioner for the prepara-
tion of the Federal Organisation be asked to take the
necessary steps to have the request laid with his hum-
ble duty, before Her Majesty at an early opportunity.
Hon. M. E. COX: I object to leave being granted
the honourable member to proceed with this Address.
The question that leave be granted the honour-
able member to proceed with the Address, was put
ind resolved in the negative.
A division was' taken as follow's:
Ayes: Messrs. J. C. MOTTLEY, BARROW, TUDOR,
CRAWFORD, ALLDER, HAYNES, GODDARID and E. D.
Noes: Mr. SMITH, Hon. G. H. ADAMS, Hon. Dr.
H. G. H. CUMMINS, Hon. M. E. Cox, Hon. C. E. TAL-
MA, Hon. R. G. MAPP, Messrs. HOLDER, BRYAN, Mrs.
EOURNE and Mr. VAUGHAN.-10.
The Order Paper having been fixed,
Hon. Dr. H. G. H. CUMM1INS: I beg to move
that this House do now adjourn until this day week,
Tuesday, 10th July, 1956, at 3 o'clock p.m.
Hon. M. E. COX: I beg to second that.
The question that this House do now adjourn
until this day week, Tuesday, 10th July, 1956, at 3
o'clock p.m., was put and resolved in the affirmative
without division, and Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the
JJxuvp~y 3, 1957