• TABLE OF CONTENTS
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 Title Page
 Table of Contents
 Title Page
 January 1828
 February 1828
 March 1828
 April 1828
 Index














Group Title: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Title: The parliamentary debates
ALL VOLUMES CITATION THUMBNAILS PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00073533/00018
 Material Information
Title: The parliamentary debates
Uniform Title: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Physical Description: 20 v. : ; 25 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Great Britain -- Parliament
Hansard, T. C ( Thomas Curson ), 1776-1833
Publisher: Published under the superintendence of T.C. Hansard
Place of Publication: London
Publication Date: 1820-1829
 Subjects
Subject: Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Great Britain -- 1820-1830   ( lcsh )
 Notes
Dates or Sequential Designation: New ser., v. 1 (1820)-v. 20 (1829).
Numbering Peculiarities: Covers Mar. 1820-Feb./Mar. 1829.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00073533
Volume ID: VID00018
Source Institution: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 07655703
lccn - sn 85062629
 Related Items
Preceded by: Parliamentary debates for the year 1803 to the present time
Succeeded by: Hansard's parliamentary debates

Table of Contents
    Title Page
        Title Page
    Table of Contents
        Page i
        Page ii
        Page iii
        Page iv
        Page v
    Title Page
        Page vi
    January 1828
        House of Lords - Tuesday, January 29
            Page 1
            Page 3-4
            Page 5-6
            Page 7-8
            Page 9-10
            Page 11-12
            Page 13-14
            Page 15-16
            Page 17-18
            Page 19-20
            Page 21-22
            Page 23-24
            Page 25-26
            Page 27-28
            Page 29-30
            Page 31-32
            Page 33-34
            Page 35-36
        House of Commons - Tuesday, January 29
            Page 37-38
            Page 39-40
            Page 41-42
            Page 43-44
            Page 45-46
            Page 47-48
            Page 49-50
            Page 51-52
            Page 53-54
            Page 55-56
            Page 57-58
            Page 59-60
            Page 61-62
            Page 63-64
            Page 65-66
            Page 67-68
            Page 35-36
        House of Lords - Thursday, January 31
            Page 69-70
        House of Commons - Thursday, January 31
            Page 69-70
            Page 71-72
            Page 73-74
            Page 75-76
            Page 77-78
            Page 79-80
            Page 81-82
            Page 83-84
            Page 85-86
            Page 87-88
            Page 89-90
            Page 91-92
            Page 93-94
    February 1828
        House of Lords - Friday, February 1
            Page 93-94
        House of Commons - Friday, February 1
            Page 95-96
            Page 93-94
        House of Commons - Monday, February 4
            Page 95-96
            Page 97-98
            Page 99-100
            Page 101-102
            Page 103-104
            Page 105-106
            Page 107-108
            Page 109-110
        House of Commons - Tuesday, February 5
            Page 111-112
            Page 113-114
            Page 109-110
        House of Commons - Wednesday, February 6
            Page 115-116
            Page 113-114
            Page 117-118
            Page 119-120
            Page 121-122
            Page 123-124
            Page 125-126
            Page 127-128
        House of Commons - Thursday, February 7
            Page 129-130
            Page 131-132
            Page 133-134
            Page 135-136
            Page 137-138
            Page 139-140
            Page 127-128
            Page 141-142
            Page 143-144
            Page 145-146
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            Page 153-154
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            Page 197-198
            Page 199-200
            Page 201-202
            Page 203-204
            Page 205-206
            Page 207-208
            Page 209-210
            Page 211-212
            Page 213-214
            Page 215-216
            Page 217-218
            Page 219-220
            Page 221-222
            Page 223-224
            Page 225-226
            Page 227-228
            Page 229-230
            Page 231-232
            Page 233-234
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            Page 237-238
            Page 239-240
            Page 241-242
            Page 243-244
            Page 245-246
            Page 247-248
            Page 249-250
            Page 251-252
            Page 253-254
            Page 255-256
            Page 257-258
        House of Commons - Friday, February 8
            Page 259-260
            Page 257-258
        House of Lords - Monday, February 11
            Page 259-260
            Page 261-262
            Page 263-264
            Page 265-266
            Page 267-268
            Page 269-270
            Page 271-272
            Page 273-274
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            Page 277-278
            Page 279-280
            Page 281-282
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            Page 287-288
            Page 289-290
            Page 291-292
            Page 293-294
            Page 295-296
            Page 297-298
            Page 299-300
            Page 301-302
            Page 303-304
            Page 305-306
        House of Commons - Monday, February 11
            Page 307-308
            Page 309-310
            Page 311-312
            Page 313-314
            Page 315-316
            Page 305-306
        House of Commons - Tuesday, February 12
            Page 317-318
            Page 319-320
            Page 321-322
            Page 323-324
            Page 315-316
            Page 325-326
            Page 327-328
            Page 329-330
            Page 331-332
            Page 333-334
            Page 335-336
            Page 337-338
            Page 339-340
            Page 341-342
            Page 343-344
            Page 345-346
            Page 347-348
            Page 349-350
        House of Lords - Thursday, February 14
            Page 351-352
            Page 353-354
            Page 355-356
            Page 357-358
            Page 359-360
            Page 349-350
        House of Commons - Thursday, February 14
            Page 361-362
            Page 363-364
            Page 365-366
            Page 367-368
            Page 359-360
            Page 369-370
            Page 371-372
            Page 373-374
            Page 375-376
            Page 377-378
            Page 379-380
            Page 381-382
            Page 383-384
            Page 385-386
            Page 387-388
            Page 389-390
            Page 391-392
            Page 393-394
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            Page 397-398
            Page 399-400
            Page 401-402
            Page 403-404
            Page 405-406
            Page 407-408
            Page 409-410
            Page 411-412
            Page 413-414
            Page 415-416
            Page 417-418
            Page 419-420
            Page 421-422
        House of Commons - Friday, February 15
            Page 423-424
            Page 425-426
            Page 427-428
            Page 429-430
            Page 431-432
            Page 433-434
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            Page 437-438
            Page 439-440
            Page 441-442
            Page 443-444
            Page 445-446
            Page 447-448
            Page 421-422
        House of Commons - Monday, February 18
            Page 449-450
            Page 451-452
            Page 453-454
            Page 455-456
            Page 457-458
            Page 459-460
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            Page 501-502
            Page 503-504
            Page 505-506
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            Page 509-510
            Page 511-512
            Page 513-514
            Page 515-516
            Page 517-518
            Page 519-520
            Page 521-522
            Page 523-524
            Page 525-526
            Page 527-528
            Page 529-530
            Page 531-532
            Page 533-534
            Page 535-536
            Page 537-538
            Page 539-540
            Page 541-542
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        House of Lords - Tuesday, February 19
            Page 563-564
            Page 565-566
            Page 567-568
            Page 569-570
            Page 571-572
            Page 561-562
        House of Commons - Tuesday, February 19
            Page 573-574
            Page 575-576
            Page 577-578
            Page 579-580
            Page 571-572
            Page 581-582
            Page 583-584
            Page 585-586
        House of Commons - Thursday, February 21
            Page 587-588
            Page 589-590
            Page 591-592
            Page 593-594
            Page 595-596
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            Page 585-586
            Page 599-600
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            Page 603-604
            Page 605-606
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            Page 609-610
        House of Commons - Friday, February 22
            Page 611-612
            Page 613-614
            Page 615-616
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            Page 627-628
            Page 629-630
            Page 631-632
            Page 609-610
            Page 633-634
            Page 635-636
        House of Lords - Monday, February 25
            Page 637-638
            Page 639-640
            Page 641-642
            Page 643-644
            Page 645-646
            Page 647-648
            Page 649-650
            Page 635-636
        House of Commons - Monday, February 25
            Page 651-652
            Page 653-654
            Page 655-656
            Page 657-658
            Page 659-660
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            Page 649-650
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            Page 665-666
            Page 667-668
            Page 669-670
            Page 671-672
            Page 673-674
            Page 675-676
        House of Commons - Tuesday, February 26
            Page 677-678
            Page 679-680
            Page 681-682
            Page 683-684
            Page 685-686
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            Page 701-702
            Page 703-704
            Page 705-706
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            Page 709-710
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            Page 713-714
            Page 715-716
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            Page 727-728
            Page 729-730
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            Page 777-778
            Page 779-780
            Page 781-782
            Page 783-784
        House of Commons - Thursday, February 28
            Page 785-786
            Page 787-788
            Page 789-790
            Page 791-792
            Page 793-794
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            Page 801-802
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            Page 783-784
        House of Commons - Friday, February 29
            Page 835-836
            Page 837-838
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            Page 923-924
    March 1828
        House of Lords - Monday, March 3
            Page 925-926
            Page 923-924
        House of Commons - Monday, March 3
            Page 925-926
            Page 927-928
            Page 929-930
            Page 931-932
            Page 933-934
            Page 935-936
            Page 937-938
        House of Commons - Tuesday, March 4
            Page 939-940
            Page 941-942
            Page 943-944
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        House of Commons - Wednesday, March 5
            Page 977-978
            Page 979-980
            Page 981-982
            Page 983-984
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        House of Commons - Thursday, March 6
            Page 987-988
            Page 989-990
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            Page 1047
            Page 1049-1050
        House of Lords - Friday, March 7
            Page 1051-1052
            Page 1053-1054
            Page 1055-1056
            Page 1049-1050
        House of Commons - Friday, March 7
            Page 1057-1058
            Page 1059-1060
            Page 1055-1056
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        House of Commons - Monday, March 10
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        House of Commons - Tuesday, March 11
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        House of Commons - Wednesday, March 12
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        House of Lords - Friday, March 14
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        House of Commons - Friday, March 14
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        House of Commons - Monday, March 17
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        House of Lords - Tuesday, March 18
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        House of Commons - Tuesday, March 18
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        House of Lords - Thursday, March 20
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        House of Commons - Thursday, March 20
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        House of Lords - Friday, March 21
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        House of Commons - Friday, March 21
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        House of Commons - Monday, March 24
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        House of Commons - Thursday, March 27
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        House of Lords - Friday, March 28
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        House of Lords - Monday, March 31
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        House of Commons - Monday, March 31
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    April 1828
        House of Commons - Tuesday, April 1
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        House of Commons - Wednesday, April 2
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        House of Commons - Thursday, April 3
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        House of Commons - Friday, April 19
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    Index
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        Page 1635-1636
Full Text


THE


PARLIAMENTARY



DEBATES:


FORMING A CONTINUATION OF THE WORK ENTITLED

" THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY OF ENGLAND,

FROM THE EARLIEST PERIOD TO THE YEAR 1803."


PUBLISHED UNDER THE SUPERINTENDENCE OF
T. C. HANSARD.


COMMENCING WITH TIE ACCESSION OF GEORGE IV.



V O L. XVIII.

COMPRISING THE PERIOD
FROM
THE TWENTY-NINTH DAY OF JANUARY,
TO
THE TWENTY-SECOND DAY OF APRIL, 1828.




LONDON:
Printub t t < t. snarb at tb6 jpatetro ?tr-ti ptre##,
FOR BALDWIN AND CRADOCK; J. BOOKER; LONGMAN, TREES, ORME, AND CO.;
J. M. RICHARDSON; PARBURY, ALLEN, AND CO.; J. HATCHARD AND SON;
J. RIDGWAY; E. JEFFERY AND SON; J. RODWELL; BUDD AND CALKIN ;
R. H. EVANS; J. BOOTH; AND T. C. HANSARD.

1828.


__














TABLE OF CONTENTS

TO

VOLUME XVIII.

NEW SERIES.





I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF III. KING'S SPEECIIES.
LORDS. IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF V. PROTESTS.
COMMONS. VI. LISTS.




I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
Page
1828.
Jan. 29. King's Speech on Opening the Session ......... ...... 1
Address on the King's Speech............................ 4
31. Breach of Privilege-Arrest of a Peer ................... 69
Roman Catholic Question .............................. 69
Feb. 1. Roman Catholic Association ............................ 93
11. State of Ireland ...................................... 259
Turkey and Greece-Battle of Navarin-Ministerial Explana..
tions .............................................. 259
14. Catholic Claims-Treaty of Limerick...................... 350
Game Laws ......................................... 350
19. Change of Administration-Ministerial Explanations ........ 562
25. Change of Administration-Ministerial Explanations ........ 636
Mar. 3. Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts .................. 923
7. Roman Catholic Association ............................ 1049
14. Anatomical Science .................................. 1136
18. Society for the Propagation of the Gospel .................. 1161
Repeal of the Corporation and Test Acts .................. 1170
Criminal Law ........................................ 1171
20. Buenos-Ayres and Brazil ............................... 1220
21. Society for the Propagation of the Gospel .................. 1236






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
25. Turkey and Russia .................................... 1333
SMLar. 28. Offences against the Person Bill....................... 1357
Law of Evidence Bill ................................ 1357
31. Corn Laws ........................................ 1364
Apr. 15. Offences against the Person Bill ......................... 1442
17. Corporation and Test Acts Repeal Bill .................... 1450
18. Penryn Disfranchisement Bill........................... 1557
21. Corporation and Test Acts Repeal Bill.................... 1571
22. Life Annuities Acts Repeal Bill.......................... 1623
Penryn Disfranchisement Bill................. ........... 1628


II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Jan. 29. State of the Law and its Administration .................. 35
Court of Chancery .................................... 35
Address on the King's Speech .......................... 35
31. Address on the King's Speech .......................... 69
Penryn Disfranchisement Bill....................... .... 83
East Retford Disfranchisement--and Representation of Bir-
mingham ......................................... 83
Feb. 1. Committee of Supply .................................. 94
Finance Committee.................................... 95
Corn-Rent Tithes .................................... 95
4. King's Answer to the Address............................ 96
Repeal of the Corporation ard Test Acts .................. 96
Committee of Supply-Change of Administration............ 97
Roman Catholic Land-Tax Bill ......................... 102
Board of Works .................................... 108
5. Roman Catholic Claims ............................... 109
6. Roman Catholic Claims ................................ 114
.Corporation and. Test Acts .............................. 124
Arrests for Debt on Mesne Process ..................... 125
7. Mr. Brougham's Motion on the State of the Courts of Common
Law .............................................. 127
8. Savings Banks....................................... 258
11. Corporation and Test Acts ............................ 305
Navy.Estimates ..................................... 307
12. Court of Chancery ..................................... 315
Navy Estimates ....... .. .......... ....... ..... .. .. 339
14. Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts .................. 359
Vote of Thanks to Sir E. Codriogton-Battle of Navarin...... 360
15. Finance Committee ........................ ........ 422
18. Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts ................. 449
Change of Administration-Ministerial Explanations ........ 449
19. Catholic Emancipation ......... ......... ........... 571
Stamp Duty on Receipts .............................. 572
Irish Sub-Letting Act .. ............ .. .. ... ..... 573






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Feb. 19. Lunatic Asylums ....................***....***.. ...... 575
21. Change of Administration-Ministerial Explanations ........ 585
Mode of taking Cities and Boroughs Poll .................. 599
Friendly Societies ............. ........... ............. 601
Parochial Settlements 1 ....... ...... ........... 602
Roman Catholic Land Tax Bill ........................ 606
22. Army Estimates ....................... ............... 609
Ordnance Estimates................................. ...635
25. Imperial Gas Company Bill ............................ 649
Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Bill ...................... 651
Navy Estimates ............ ......................... 655
Army Estimates ...................................... 664
East Retford Disfranchisement Bill ...................... 669
"6. Lord John Russell's Motion for the Repeal of the Test and Cor-
poration Acts ...... I ...........*****........... ..676
28. Police of the Metropolis, and the Districts adjoining thereto ., 784
Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts .................. 816
29. Mr. Brougham's Motion on the State of the Courts of Common
Law ...............*................ .............. 833
Mar. 3. East Retford Disfranchisement Bill ...................... 925
4. Emigration .......................................... 938
Passage Vessels Regulation Bill ............................ 962
East Retford Disfranchisement Bill 6 .. ............ 966
5. Slave Trade ......................................... 975
Charities in England and Wales.......................... 981
6. Increase of Crime...................................... 985
Catholic Emancipation-Petition of Catholics of Ireland...... 987
Printing Expenses of the House ..... .................... 989
Registration of Freeholders ............................. 989
Treaty of Limerick ................ .............. 990
Scotch Law of Entail .................................. 1019
Slavery in the W est Indies .............................. 1023
Westminster Sessions .................................. 1048
7. Suspension of a Judge in India ...... ........... ....... 1055
Public Charities ..................................... 1056
Catholic Claims ..................................... 1058
Licensing System .................................... 1059
East Retford Disfranchisement Bill .... ................. 1060
10. East Retford Disfranchisement Bill .................... 1076
Mutiny Bill ................... .............. ........... 1089
Roman Catholic Land-Tax Bill ......................... 1101
11. State of the Elective Franchise in the several Districts and Cities
Corporate................................. ........ 1102
Education in Ireland ............................. .... 1119
12. Savings Banks................. .................... .. 1124
Irish Vagrants ............. I ......................... 1126
Promotions in the Army ................................ 1126
Life Annuities Act.................. ..... .. ..... ..... 1135





TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Mar. 14. Corporation and Test Acts Repeal Bill .................. 1137
Penryn Disfranchisement Bill.......................... 1138
Parochial Settlements (Scotland) Bill.............. ....... 1147
Supply of Water to the Metropolis ...................... 1148
Licensing System..................................... 1149
17. Tithes Commutation Bill................................ 1151
18. Supply of Water to the Metropolis....................... 1177
Corporation and Test Acts Repeal Bill ................... 1180
Passengers' Regulation Bill............................ 1208
20. Irish Parish Vestries Act.............................. 1223
Election Expenses-Use of Ribbons ...................... 1227
Right of Election in Counties Corporate .................. 1230
Assessment of Lessors in future Lettings of Land in Ireland.... 1233
Admission of Freemen in Cities and Boroughs .............. 1234
21. East Retford Disfranchisement Bill ...................... 1252
24. Greece and Turkey ................................... 1301
Public Buildings-Office of Works ...................... 1304
Ways and Means.................................... 1310
Life Annuities Repeal Bill .............................. 1314
East Retford Disfranchisement Bill .................... 1319
Penryn Disfranchisement Bill.......................... 1320
Corporation and Test Acts Repeal Bill .................. 1329
25. East Retford Disfranchisement Bill .................... 1334
Duty on Insurances .................................. 1335
Real Property in India................................ 1339
Life Annuities Repeal Bill ............................. 1344
Freeholders' Registration Bill......................... 1348
27. Canada Company.................................... 1350
28. Penryn Disfranchisement Bill.......................... 1358
Supply of Water to the Metropolis ...................... 1361
31. Mary-le-bone Select Vestry Bill........................ 1376
Corn Laws .......................................... 1379
Cities and Boroughs Polls Regulation Bill ................. 1411
April 1. Poor Laws in Ireland .............................. 1417
West India Produce-Duty on Sugar ................... 1422
South American Trade .............................. 1424
Foreign Trade-Imports for Home Consumption ............ 1428
Administration of Justice in New South Wales and Van Dieman's
Land .................. ......................... 1430
2. Stamps on Cards and Dice ............................. 1431
3. Controverted Election Laws .......................... 1433
Greeks-Slaves from the Morea ........................ 1438
Supply of Water to the Metropolis....................... 1442
15. Turnpike Trusts Bill ................................ 1445
17. Catholic Emancipation .............................. 1520
Poor-Laws-Payment of able-bodied Labourers out of the Poor
Rates ............................................ 1521
Emigration to British Colonies ......................... 1547





TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Apr. 18. New South Wales .................................. 1559
East India Company-Case of Mr. O'Reilly .............. 1560
New South Wales Bill................ ................ 1564
Roman Catholic Land-Tax Bill ....................... 1569
21. Corporation of Ludlow .............................. 1610
Anatomy ........................................... 1612
Corn Laws-Wages .................................. 1614
Fees on Turnpike Bills ................................ 1620


III. KING'S SPEECHES.

Jan. 29. KING's SPEECH on Opening the Session ............... 1


IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.

PROTOCOL relative to the Affairs of Greece. Signed at St. Petersburgh,
April 4, 1826 .............................................. 87
Treaty for the Pacification of Greece, between his Majesty, the most Chris-
tian King, and the Emperor of all the Russias. Signed at London, July
6, 1827 ... ............ ..................... ..... ...... 88


V. PROTESTS.

PROTEST against the Corporation and Test Acts Repeal Bill............ 1609


VI. LISTS.

Feb. 11. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Navy
Estimates ..................................... 314
12; of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Navy
Estimates ..................... ...... .... ..... 350
26. of the Majority, and also of the Minority, in the House of
Commons, on Lord John Russell's Motion for the Repeal
of the Test and Corporation Acts ................. 781
Mar. 21. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the East
Retford Disfranchisement Bill..................... 1300


















PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.










Parliamentary Debates


During the SECOND SESSION of the EIGHTH PARLIAMENT
of the United Kingdom of GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND,
appointed to meet at Westminster the 29th of January,
1828, in the Ninth Year of the Reign of His Majesty
King GEORGE THE FOURTH.


HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, January 29, 1828.
KING'S SPEECH, OPENING THE
SESSION.] The Session was this day
opened by Commission. The Lords Com-
missioners were, Lord Chancellor Lynd-
hurst, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the
Earl of Shaftesbury, and Lord Ellen-
borough. The Usher of the Black Rod
having summoned the Commons, the
Speaker, attended by a number of Members,
appeared at the bar; when the Lord
Chancellor proceeded to read His Majesty's
Speech to both Houses, as follows :-
My Lords, and Gentlemen,
We are commanded by His Majesty
to acquaint you, that His Majesty con-
tinues to receive, from all Foreign Princes
and States, assurances of their desire to
maintain the relations of amity with this
Country; and that the Great Powers of
Europe participate in the earnest wish of
His Majesty to cultivate a good under-
standing upon all points which may con-
duce to the preservation of Peace.
"His Majesty has viewed for some
time past, with great concern, the state of
affairs in the East of Europe.
For several years a contest has been
carried on between the Ottoman Porte
and the Inhabitants of the Greek Provin-
ces and Islands, which has been marked
on each side by excesses revolting to
humanity.
VOL. XVIII. {s,,}


In the progress of that Contest, the
Rights of Neutral States, and the Laws
which regulate the intercourse of civilized
Nations, have been repeatedly violated,
and the peaceful Commerce of His Ma-
jesty's Subjects has been exposed to
frequent interruption, and to depredations,
too often aggravated by acts of violence
and atrocity.
His Majesty has felt the deepest
anxiety to terminate the calamities, and
avert the dangers, inseparable from hos-
tilities, which constitute the only excep-
tion to the general tranquillity of Europe.
Having been earnestly entreated by
the Greeks to interpose His good offices,
with a view to effect a reconciliation be-
tween them and the Ottoman Porte,
His Majesty concerted measures for that
purpose, in the first instance, with the
Emperor of Russia, and subsequently
with his Imperial Majesty and the King
of France.
His Majesty has given directions that
there should be laid before you Copies of
a Protocol signed at Saint Petersburgh
by the Plenipotentiaries of His Majesty
and of his Imperial Majesty the Emperor
of Russia, on the 4th of April, 1826, and
of the Treaty entered into between His
Majesty and the Courts of the Tuileries
and of Saint Petersburgh, on the 6th of
July, 1827.
In the course of the measures adopted
B






3 HOUSE OF LORDS,
with a view to carry into effect the object
of the Treaty, a collision, wholly unex-
pected by His Majesty, took place in the
oert of Navarin between the Fleets of the
Contracting Powers and that of the
Ottoman Porte.
Notwithstanding the valour displayed
by the Combined Fleet, His Majesty
deeply laments that this conflict should
have occurred with the Naval Force of
ah ancient Ally; but he still entertains a
confident hope that this untoward event
will not be followed by further hostilities,
and will not impede that amicable adjust-
ment of the existing differences between
the Porte and the Greeks, to which it is
ab manifestly their common interest to
accede.
In maintaining the National Faith by
adhering to the engagements into which
His Majesty has entered, His Majesty
will never lose sight of the great objects
to which all his efforts have been di-
rected the termination of the con-
test between the hostile parties the
permanent settlement of their future rela-
tions to each other-and the maintenance
of the repose of Europe upon the basis on
which it has rested since the last general
Treaty of Peace.
"His Majesty has the greatest satis-
f4atcnntn in inrmin l thlit h thl n+ itonc


Address on the King's Speech 4
Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
His Majesty has ordered the estimates
for the Current year to be laid before you.
They have been prepared with every
regard to economy, consistent with the
exigency of the public service.
"We are commanded by His Majesty
to recommend to your early attention an
Inquiry into the state of the Revenue and
Expenditure of the country.
His Majesty is assured, that it will
be satisfactory to you to learn, that, not-
withstanding the diminution which has
taken place in some branches of the
Revenue, the total amount of receipt
during the last year has not disappointed
the expectations which were entertained
at the commencement of it.
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
His Majesty has commanded us to
inform you, that a considerable increase
has taken place in the export of the prin-
cipal articles of British manufacture,
This improvement of our Foreign Trade
has led to a more general employment of
the population, and affords a satisfactory
indication of the continued abatement of
those commercial difficulties which re-
cently affected so severely the National
Industry.
His Majesty commands us to assure
you, that he places the firmest reliance


f............. J ... ... upon your continued endeavors to im-
fbr which His Majesty, upon the requisi-
tion of the Court of Lisbon, detached a prove the condition of all classes of his
Military Force to Portugal have been subjects, and to advance the great object
accomplished. The obligations of good of His Majesty's solicitude, the prosperity
accomplished. The obligations of good an h i o hi People."
faith having been fulfilled, and the safety and happiness of his People."
and independence of Portugal secured, ADDRESS ON THE K1NG'S SPEECH.]
His Majesty has given orders that the His Majesty's Speech having been again
forces now in that country should be read by the Lord Chancellor, and also by
immediately withdrawn, the Clerk at the Table,
e are c and b His M The Earl of Chichester rose, and spoke
We are commanded by His Majesty o the following effect :-My Lords; In
to acquaint you, that His Majesty has rising to address your lordships on the
concluded Treaties of Amity and Com- present occasion, with a view to propose
merce with the Emperor of Brazil, and that an humble and dutiful Address be
with the United States of Mexico; copies presented to his Majesty, in reply to his
wih i as most gracious Speech, which we have just
of which will, by His Majesty's commands, heard read, I am fully sensible of the diffi-
be laid before you. culties that must unavoidably, and of ne-






6 A ddresl d the King's Spe edh.
cessity, attend such a task-a task that is
at all times difficult, but which becomes
doubly hazardous when undertaken by an
individual so inexperienced as myself. I
feel confident, however, my lords, that in
proposing a loyal and dutiful Address of
thanks to his Majesty for a Speech, the
leading feature and principle of which
consists in a recommendation to adopt
well-grounded precautions, to preserve
peace and maintain whole and untarnished
our national credit and honour-I am
confident, that in addressing myself to a
subject like this, 1 may safely rely upon
your lordships for support. I can assure
your lordships, that if I shall not execute
aright the task allotted to me, I shall fail
in the attempt, not through any want of
sincerity on my part, but in consequence
of a- deficiency of ability to explain and
enforce those principles in the manner
they deserve.
My lords, reverting to the commencement
of the Speech which you have just heard
read, it appears from it, that his Majesty
continues to receive from all foreign
Princes and States, assurances of their
desire to maintain the relations of amity
with this country, and that the great
Powers of Europe participate in the
earnest wish of his Majesty to cultivate a
good understanding upon all points which
may conduce to the preservation of peace."
My lords, I consider that this passage in
his Majesty's Speech must be to your
lordships, and the country at large, no
small source of satisfaction ; for, since the
naval engagement which has recently
taken place in the port of Navarin, be-
tween the Allied squadrons and the Turco-
Egyptian fleet, I am aware that consider-
able fears have been entertained, that the
condition of Greece would be rendered
still more unfavourable than unfortunately
it has long been: Besides, my lords, it
may have been apprehended, that the
peace which the greater part of Europe
has so long enjoyed, might be thereby en-
dangered, and that we ourselves, now
scarcely beginning to reap the advantages
and to taste the sweets consequent on a
restoration of peace, were on the point of
being deprived of them by becoming in-
volved in a war with our ancient ally, the
Ottoman Porte. My lords, while I am
free to confess, that I deeply lament the
loss of valuable lives sustained on that
occasion, I cannot but admire-and I am
certain every man in the country admires


JAM. 29, 1828. 6
-the signal display of skill and valout
made by our countrymen in the conflict-
a courage and ability only equalled by the
no less meritorious exertions and conduct
of our Allies. But, my lords, while I
willingly pay my tribute of admiration
to the gallantry of our brave countrymen
upon that occasion, and however proud I
may feel of their conduct, I am convinced
that every true and ardent friend of his
country must lament, in common with my-
self, the occurrence of so unfortunate ad
accident, or event, as that to which I have
alluded [hear]. In all victories, my
lords, the degree of honour to which the
victors are entitled must very much, if it
does not entirely, depend on the justice of
the cause in which they happen to be en-
gaged. Had this engagement between
the allied squadrons and the Ottoman
fleet, been, on our part, the result of pre-
meditated design, and not as it was, the
consequence of unforeseen accident, or a
misunderstanding not to be provided
against, I should find this war a dif-
ficult one to be defended, and, as it
appears to me, we might all have rea-
son to entertain fears for its conse-
quences. However, on referring to the
Speech from the Throne, his Majesty,
it will be seen, expressly declares, that so
far from this engagement being an act of
premeditation, or contemplated as a con-
sequence likely to be produced by the in-
structions sent out by the government at
home to the British admiral-so far from
this being the case, the engagement is cha-
racterised in the royal Speech, as an un-
expected and untoward event."-More-
over, my lords, his Majesty goes on to
declare, that he entertains "a confident
hope, that this untoward event will not be
followed by further hostilities, or impede
that amicable adjustment of the existing
differences between the Porte and the
Greeks, to which it is manifestly their
common interest to accede," and to which
amicable adjustment I may be permitted
to add, it is the object of the treaties, en-
tered into by Great Britain, France, and
Russia, to induce them to accede. My
lords, I cannot help taking this opportu-
nity of alluding to the dignified forbear-
ance that has marked the conduct of the
Sultan, since the occurrence of the event
which brought the allied squadron in col-
lision with the Turco-Egyptian fleet; and
I look upon such conduct as an additional
call upon Great Britain to do her part
B2





7 HOUSE OF LORDS,
towards maintaining that ancient alliance,
which, with scarcely any interruption, has
subsisted for so many years between this
country and the Ottoman Porte. During
the war which, unhappily for the interests
of humanity, has been so long carried on
between the Ottoman Porte and the in-
habitants of the Greek provinces and
islands, the trade of this country to the
Levant suffered in common with that of
France and other neutral powers-and, I
may add, suffered to no inconsiderable
extent from piracies directly occasioned
by, or collaterally arising out of, the hos-
tilities subsisting between the two coun-
tries. It, therefore, became the policy of
our government, as well for the protection
of our own trade, as to promote the gene-
ral peace and welfare of Europe, to en-
deavour to bring this contest to a speedy
termination. Accordingly, measures were
adopted for the amicable adjustment of
the differences which subsisted; and to
further this, a treaty was entered into with
France and Russia, to which, as it is not
yet regularly before your lordships' House,
I shall not now more particularly refer.
That the salutary object it possesses may
be speedily carried into effect, is certainly
most desirable, for our own interests, as
well as for those of the rest of Europe.
But it is no less essential to our national
credit, and to the maintenance of that
character for honour and good faith, which
is the glory of our country, that we should
not attempt to enforce it, by unprovokedly
drawing our swords upon an ancient and
faithful ally.-My lords, the object for
which our troops were sent to Lisbon has,
it appears, been accomplished, and that
they are about to return. I, therefore,
hope that Portugal, for whose interest and
protection we have formerly expended so
much blood and treasure, may now, in
security and independence, enjoy the be-
nefit of that assistance which Great Bri-
tain has, at all times, so liberally afforded.
-My lords, with respect to that part of
his Majesty's Speech which relates to the
increased export of some of our manufac-
tures, and a proportionate improvement in
the condition of those classes connected
with them, it cannot but be a source of
considerable gratification to your lordships;
and I trust that his majesty may not be
disappointed in his reliance on parliament,
to use its utmost endeavours to promote
and extend such improvement in those
and other classes of his Majesty's subjects.


Address on the King's Speech. 8
-My lords, I shall not trespass further on
your lordships' time or patience, but will
conclude by moving an humble Address to
his Majesty, in answer to his most gracious
Speech, which we have just heard read.-
The noble lord then moved an Address,
which, as usual, was an echo of the Speech
from the Throne [See Commons, p 41.]
Lord Strangford said:- My Lords, in
rising to second the motion of the noble
lord, that an humble Address be presented
to his Majesty, thanking him for the
Speech which he has been graciously
pleased to direct to be delivered from the
Throne, I confess I feel peculiar satisfac-
tion ; the rather because I believe that the
main points urged in that Speech are such
as must necessarily convey a feeling of
hope and consolation to all his Majesty's
subjects. One ground of satisfaction at
the tenor of the royal Speech is discover-
able in the spirit of peace and amity that
pervades it. It contains what may be
construed into his Majesty's gracious decla-
ration, and may be understood to convey
an expression of the royal resolution, to
use every possible exertion to maintain the
repose of Europe on the firm foundation,
the proud basis, on which the memorable
efforts of English valour and conduct had
placed it at the battle of Waterloo, and
subsequently by means of the treaty of
Paris. My Lords, I am rejoiced at the ex-
pression of such a sentiment; and connect-
ing his Majesty's resolution with the peace-
ful assurances which our government con-
tinues to receive from the leading powers
of Europe, I consider the Speech from the
Throne well calculated to allay the anxiety
which the present posture of public affairs
in the east of Europe might otherwise
excite. The maintenance of general
tranquillity is an object well deserving the
care of his Majesty's ministers, and, if
steadily pursued, will confer more splen-
dor, and reflect greater credit, on the na-
tional character, than the achievement of
the most signal victories. At the same
time, the peaceful triumphs to which I
have alluded, not only possess the advant-
age of greater and more lasting renown,
but are also more easily attained, than the
hazardous, and sometimes ruinous, suc-
cesses of war. My Lords, it is impossible
to advert to a conflict, the occurrence of
which we must all deplore, without admit-
ting, that not even the glory connected
with the achievement can, for a single in-
stant, diminish the regret which our tri-








umph at Navarin must continue to excite been an interruption, I sincerely hope the
in the minds of Britons, so long as national two countries will speedily return; and
honour and gratitude shall continue to be that measures, the most active and deci-
the characteristics of Englishmen-or so sive, provided they are consistent with re-
long as the remembrance of what Turkey cent treaties, may be resorted to, in order
has been to us, in the hour of peril, shall to renew a state of things, which every per-
remain. I feel strongly, my lords, and it son acquainted with the circumstances of
may be that I express myself warmly on Turkey mast wish to see established.
this subject; and I ought to do so, for Every principle, my lords, calls upon us
well I know the warmth of feeling which, to co-operate in accomplishing this object.
in Turkey, prevails towards this country; Bound, as I admit we are, by the treaty of
and well do I know, and sincerely do I ad- London, we are equally bound to carry its
mire, the strict honour, the downright, un- provisions into effect with the least possi-
deviating fidelity, with which she has long ble disturbance to the interest and feelings
fulfilled engagements and maintained re- of a government which, in the most trying
nations of amity towards us. I will add, times, has enlisted itself in our favour,
my lords, that theirs is a fidelity which has and which has been invariably anxious to
not proved the weaker, because it happens preserve with us friendly relations. That
to rest less upon the faith of treaties and such is his Majesty's intention, I think,
written documents, than on the simple my lords, if any evidence were wanting,
guarantee oforal promises, entered intothree the Speech from the Throne affords suffi-
hundred years ago, and from that period, cient proof. That such is the intention of
handed down, traditionally,from generation the other powers who are parties to the
to generation. My lords, I look forward treaty in question, may be inferred from
with a confidence considerably strength- circumstances which are, I hope, equally
ened by the spirit that pervades his Ma- satisfactory, and, above all, fromthe spirit
jesty's Speech, to the renewal and continu- and purport of the treaty itself. Those
ance of that cordial feeling, which every powers, like ourselves, are at present on
friend to both countries must desire to see terms of amity with Turkey-terms of
subsisting between Turkey and England. amity which, I trust, no circumstances will
I sincerely hope and trust-noiwithstand- be permitted to derange. Looking at all
ing the most unexpected and untoward these considerations, and confiding, as
event, which has recently occurred in the circumstances have given me a right to
port of Navarin-that a recurrence to our confide, from personal knowledge and ex-
forimer relations of amity and friendly in- perience, in the high honour and unsullied
tercourse may not be impracticable. May character of one of the principal parties to
I add, that I also hope that an end will be that compact; I think there are little
speedily put to those unauthorised and grounds to fear a breach of its provisions.
anomalous hostilities at present carried on I will add, that I am fully convinced that
by the romance or cupidity of individual no prospect of political advantage will be
adventurers, and which are but too well suffered to pollute or change the object of
calculated, if permitted to continue, to a treaty, originating in the most humane
embarrass the national councils, while and honourable motives. My lords, as
they put in jeopardy the national honour, you well know, I have had the honour to
I trust, my lords, the day is not far distant be employed as his Majesty's representa-
when we shall again behold-that which I tive at the court of St. Petersburg, and I
had the pride and pleasure for many years can affirm, from my own direct and imme-
myselfof beholding-the influence of Eng- diate knowledge, that the views and senti-
land paramount, I may say omnipotent, ments of his imperial majesty, the emperor
at Constantinople. I trust events have of Russia, are decidedly pacific, and are
recently taken place to accelerate an oc- directed towards no other object than the
currency, of which all true friends of maintenance of tranquillity, and the fulfil-
Turkey and England must ardently desire ment of the treaty entered into by the
to witness the completion. Whatever may courts of St. James's, the Tuileries, and
be said of Turkish apathy and indifference, St. Petersburg. Towards the preservation
there is one thing to which that people of tranquillity it was my duty to contri-
have never been indifferent-a friendly bute, under the command of my gracious
connexion with England. To those rela- master, when at the court of St. Peters-
tions, of which there never should have burg; and I invariably found his imperial


Address onl the King's Speech.


JAN. 29, 1828. 10





11 HOUSE OF LORDS,
majesty ready to co-operate with my own
sovereign in the attainment of that desir-
able end.-There is another topic in the
royal Speech to which I advert with feel-
ings of unmingled pleasure-the conduct
of England towards Portugal; a country
to which we are bound by every tie of
friendship and interest. It is gratifying
to see the friendly hand of England ex-
tended, and her power again successfully
exerted, in behalf of that nation, and in
defence of a country long united to us in
bonds of the strictest amity. To England,
and England alone, is the safety of Portu-
gal to be ascribed, and on our efforts must
her peacedepend. What we have effected
will bind her more closely than ever to
our interests, and will entail upon her a
debt immense of endless gratitude." I
shall trespass no further on your lordships'
attention, than to express my sincere hope,
that no difference of opinion upon matters
which, at present, must necessarily be un-
accompanied with explanation, will be
permitted to disturb that unanimity which
is so desirable on the present occasion.
Lord Holland next rose. He began by
assuring their lordships, that he had no in-
tention when he entered the House that even-
ing, to trouble their lordships with any ob-
servations on the Speech which had been
delivered to them from the Throne-or to
say one word which might interrupt the
unanimity of their lordships on the present
occasion. Many reasons, with which it
was unnecessary to trouble their lordships,
some of a private and personal nature,
and some of a public and general charac-
ter, made him wish not to enter into de-
bate for any unnecessary purpose. He
hld expected, that the address which
would be proposed that night in reply to
his majesty's Speech would be one which
would not cause any great difference of
qpiniou. He had been willing to over-
look its faults of omission, many and griev-
qus as they were: and he had been willing,
moreover, to overlook any inconsiderate
q;pressions, with which he might not be
inclined to agree : and he would even
now say, that with the general substance
of the Speech he for one, was pretty
well satisfied. He fully agreed with the
noble lord, that the expressions which his
majesty had used upon one great point-
be meant his desire for peace-were such
9 became the Throne, and ought to be
expected from it; and he felt as strongly
A th*e peech itself, that the great object


Address on the King's Speeqh. 1
which his majesty's late government had
had in view was the preservation of peace,
and he made no doubt that those who had
put the Speech into his majesty's mouth
were actuated at present by similar wishes.
To the substance of the Speech-or he
would rather say, to the substantives, of
the Speech-he felt little inclined to ob-
ject; but there were epithets, there were
adjectives added to those substantives,
which conveyed to his mind impressions
which were by no means warranted by
facts, and to which he could not give his
consent, even for a moment. The first
was the calling the Ottoman Porte our
ancient ally." He knew not what meaning
the two noble lords who had just spoken
annexed to the terms antiquity" and
" alliance." They must have other no-
tions of "alliance" than he had; they
must apply the term ancient" in a sense
which he could never allow it to have,
when applied to transactions between na-
tion and nation, when they presumed to
say that Turkey Was the ancient ally"
of Great Britain. If he understood any
thing of the meaning of words, the only
alliance of Great Britain with Turkey was
very short-lived in its duration, and very
recent in its history ; for he did not sup-
pose that the noble lords would con-
tend, that the existence of peace or com-
mercial treaties between the two countries
constituted alliance between them. The
address of that evening proved the con-
trary. In that address were mentioned
treaties of amity and commerce concluded
with a new republic of Mexico ? Was it
meant thereby that that republic, which
was at war with Spain, was to be con-
sidered henceforward as an ally of Great
Britain ? He knew not what the precise
meaning of the term "ally" was in diplo-
matic language, but he conceived that, in
common parlance, it meant a party who
had a common interest in the existence
and prosperity of another party. Now,
with respect to Turkey, it was not true to
say, that she was the ancient ally of Great
Britain, in this sense of the word. The
alliance between the two countries had not
existed at any time for more than seven
years. I can say, unfortunately for my-
self," continued his lordship, that I am
rather an old man in this House. I am
long known to most of your lordships." I
trust, however, that I am not yet become
a piece of antiquity among you; and yet
I recollect the first treaty of alliance that





JAN. 99, 1828. 14


was ever formed by this country with
Turkey. It was thought extraordinary at
the time, that one of the stipulations of
that treaty should be, that it should only
last seven years; and yet it may appear
more extraordinary to your lordships to
learn, that before those seven years had
expired, every article in that treaty had
been violated over and over again by Tur-
key. Our ancient ally I should like to
know what was the nature of the alliance.
The noble lord who spoke last admits that
the alliance is not recognized by ancient
treaty, but that it depends upon oral tradi-
tions, which had been handed down by
one Turkish minister to another for the
last three hundred years. Wehave heard,
in various publications, of the antiquity of
our commercial relations with Turkey;
I am therefore anxious to say a word or
two upon that part of the subject. I be-
lieve that they commenced in the reign of
James 1st; that they were formally recog-
nized by the Porte to the time of Charles
2nd and William 3rd; and that they were
at last brought into the shape of a treaty by
an individual to whose exertions his coun-
try is highly indebted I mean my
honourable friend Mr. Adair. To go
through the whole of the negative proof
which I could produce to convince your
-lordships that Turkey is not the ancient
ally of England would be tedious. I
shall content myself with observing, that
the anti-social race which now enjoys the
empire of the Constantines, considers it-
self naturally at war with every nation
with which it has not entered into a formal
treaty of peace. I do not deny that it has
entered into a treaty of peace with us;
but, can a treaty of peace be fairly con-
sidered as a treaty of alliance ? The first
treaty made between this country and
Turkey, I have no doubt, was considered
by the Turks, as an act of grace and con-
cession, yielded by them, in the plenitude
of their power to those dogs of christians,
the Nazarene nations. The privileges which
were granted to our commerce, were ob-
tained from the Porte about 1699, by lord
Winchilsea and sir John Finch, and other
able members of that family. But how,
I would ask, were they granted ? Were
the names of lord Winchilsea or sir John
Finch subscribed to any treaty which
secured them ? No such thing. The
privileges were granted as we would throw
a bone to a dog: they were given, too,
for very special reasons. And what do


your lordships suppose those reasons were?
The first was, because the messages which
Charles the 2nd had sent to the Sultan
were of an agreeable nature; the second
because Charles 2nd was considered to be
a very powerful monarch among the Na-
zarene nations ; and the last and most lu-
dicrous was, because the Sultan had heard
that Charles was the arbiter of the dif-
ferences among them. For those reasons
the Sultan granted to our countrymen
what was called, by a sort of diplomatic
euphonism, certain capitulations, but what
I believe to have been called, in the Turkish
language, boons or concessions. Those
concessions or capitulations--call them
by which name you please-were merely
commercial; they gave to the subjects of
Great Britain the same immunities which
had been granted, onthe same terms, to the
subjects of France. We had, however, no
political relations with Turkey, in any sense
of the word, until the year 1699. In 1692,
we offered our services to mediate between
the emperor of Germany and the Turkish
power who were then at war; and we did
so, in order to leave our ancient ally, the
house of Austria,-for Austria was our
ancient ally, and Russia, too, was our
ancient ally,--in a situation to direct her
arms, along with us, against the then colos-
sal power of France. And what was the
result of that negotiation? We were accused,
by French writers,-I shall not stop to ex-
amine whether rightly or wrongly,-of
having exercised our mediation with gross
partiality, and with having inflicted by it
a severe injury on the Ottoman power.
One of the articles in the treaty, into
which the Turks entered under our media-
tions, was to this effect,-that they should
surrender the whole of the Morea and of
Greece, into the hands of the Venetians.
So that the result of our first political
negotiation with Turkey was, to wrest
Greece from its dominion; though, un-
fortunately, notfor ever.-Inthe year 1718,
we again entered into a political negotia-
tion with Turkey; but under circumstances
which, I contend, still preclude us from
denominating her our ancient ally." It
is right, however, to state that, by that
treaty, we recognized Turkey as the sove-
reign of Greece, which a fatal war had
enabled her to recover from the Venetians.
There were some circumstances, which
occurred about that time, which are so
very remarkable, that, if your lordships
should not consider them quite irrelevant


44dress on the.King's Spireoh.







to the matter in debate, I must be permitted Mediterranean. When sir George Byng
to mention. In the year 1718, the arrived off Cape St. Vincent, he sent his
governments of England and France were, secretary to Madrid, to communicate to
as now, by the course of events, closely the king of Spain, to his prime minister
allied together. A dispute arose between the cardinal Alberoni, and to the Spanish
the emperor of Germany and the king of government generally, first of all the
Spain, in which they both refused to take amount of his force, and its arrival in
any share. On the contrary, they con- those parts; and next, the exact nature of
eluded with each other a treaty, of which his instructions. He likewise insisted that
the object was, to obtain the general paci- the Spanish government should give him
fiction of Europe, upon terms to which an answer in eight and forty hours.
they thought it reasonable that both the Cardinal Alberoni, who was then strenu-
emperor of Germany and the king of Spain ously exerting himself to restore the vigour
should agree. With this view they agreed of a dispirited nation, at first took a high
with each other, to propose an armistice tone, and told him, that his master was
to the two parties, until the question be- determined to run all risks, rather than
tween them should be settled by the media- real his armaments, or consent to a sus-
tion of the great powers of Europe; and pension of arms. The cardinal, however,
they determined to compel by force, if subsequently laid lord Torrington's letter
need were, the party who refused such before the king of Spain, and contrived to
armistice to accede to it. One of the dis- lengthen the negotiation from two to nine
putants, Germany, acquiesced at once in days. In the mean time, the Spanish
the proposals of the mediating parties. troops landed in Sicily. Lord Torrington
Spain, however, dissented. She refused on his arrival at Messina, found, to his
to comply with the conditions proposed to great vexation, as sir Edward Codrington
her, and went on equipping fleets, raising found when he arrived off Greece, that the
armies, and executing all those projects land forces of the king of Spain had
which the allied governments of Great arrived at their destination, and that their
Britain and France so much disapproved, naval force was anchored close by. What
Both of them bestirred themselves to did he do ? He immediately sent his own
dissuade the King of Spain from the captain with a polite message to the
course which he was pursuing. The British Spanish general the marquis de Lede,-
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs of as sir Edward Codrington sent his captain
that day, lord Stanhope, travelled in to Ibrahim Pacha,-proposing a cessation
person to Madrid; pointed out to the of arms for two months in Sicily, in order
Spanish government the consequences of that the powers of Europe might have
the absurd scheme of conquest which it time to concert measures for restoring a
was meditating upon the emperor's domi- lasting peace. He told him that the
nions in Italy; stated the mischief which English and French governments were
would result to humanity from the devasta- allied together to establish a general paci-
tion of that beautiful country; and said, fiction. He therefore proposed to the
that it was the intention of England to Spanish general, either to agree to an
send a powerful squadron into the Mediter- armistice for two months, or to withdraw
ranean, to prevent the landing of Spanish his troops altogether from Sicily, in which
troops in any part of Italy. This did not case he would undertake to convey them
do. A powerful squadron was subsequently in safety to Spain. The Spanish general's
sent out by the British government, and answer to this proposition was, that he was
the command of it was intrusted to as an officer, not an ambassador,-that he
great and distinguished an officer as the had authority to fight, but no powers to
British navy ever possessed; he meant sir treat,-that he was aware of the great
George Byng, afterwards lord Torrington. power of England and France united ; but
And not the least part of that gallant that he should obey the orders which he
officer's glory was, that upon that occasion had received, and which directed him to
he had dared to do that which sir Edward reduce Sicily for his master the king of
Codrington had recently done at Navarino; Spain. The Spanish fleet had sailed from
namely, to consider his orders as authoriz- the harbour of Messina on the day before
ing him to- carry into execution, by the the English fleet appeared there; but in
force of the British navy, the great object consequence of an accident, it was subse-
for which he had been sent into the quently described on the coast of Calabria.


15 HOUSE OF LORDS,


Address on the King's Speech.






JAN. 29, 1828. 18


What was the conduct, my lords, of lord
Torrington? Did he look to this word, or
that word, of his instructions ? No: he
looked, as he ought to look, and as I trust
every British seaman will look, not to the
letter but to the spirit and object of his
instructions. He immediately gave chase
to the Spanish fleet, brought it to action,
and as sir Edward Codrington did at
Navarino, attacked and annihilated it. It
was stated at the time by lord Torrington,
that the Spanish fleet fired first. The
Spaniards denied it. I think that, under
the circumstances, it was of no consequence
whether we fired first or not. They had a
right to say, You came up to me ready
for action-you came either to intimidate
or insult me. Insult is the same thing as
aggression, and I had a right to resist your
aggression as I best could." Our justifi-
cation rested upon our right to become
the aggressors, if we thought proper; and
not upon the casual circumstance of
which fleet the first shot came from. All
these circumstances are the vei y circum-
stances which recently happened at Nava-
rino. The similarity, however, goes still
further. It so happened, that at the time
when lord Torrington destroyed the Spanish
fleet in the gallant manner which I havejust
described, we had at home a very powerful
and exasperated faction ofTories [a laugh].
They had been long, very long, accustomed
to the possession and abuse of power, and
they were sorely exasperated at the unex-
pected loss of it. There were also, unfor-
tunately, certain great Whig leaders, who
were not a little exasperated at not having
been included in the administration which
succeeded them. There were also some
ex-ministers, who had framed the original
treaty with France; and who, after its
formation, had had the misfortune to lose
the genial influence of the sunshine of
power. There were also in the country,
what I hope is now quite extinct-a set
of bigotted jure divino legitimates, who
were the secret favourers of Spain, and the
avowed defenders of tyranny and arbitrary,
hereditary, and undefeated, despotism, in
every quarter of the world. All these
parties, owing to some strange coincidence
of conviction, joined in reprobating the mea-
sure which lord Torrington had executed,
crying out with loud and angry voices,
that it was a gross violation of the sacred
principles of the law of nations, and prating
very unintelligibly about the fatal and
alarming consequences to which it must


inevitably lead. Nay, family and tradi-
tionary history relates, that there were
vague rumours afloat at the time, that the
British minister for Foreign Affairs, be-
coming suddenly afraid of the conse-
quences of the wise, just, and spirited
measure, which he had himself recom-
mended, was inclined to throw the odium
and responsibility of it on the gallant ad-
miral who had carried it into execution.
But, if there was any such intention on
his part, which I trust and hope there was
not, the administration was rescued from
that ignominy by the approbation which
the gallant admiral shortly afterwards re-
ceived from two distinguished royal per-
sonages; for George the 1st, admiring the
bravery of the achievement, wrote a letter
with his own hand to lord Torrington,
complimenting him upon it; and the em-
peror of Germany afterwards did the same.
Both those letters are now preserved in
the archives of the family; from a laud-
able pride in the exploit of their illustrious
progenitor. These letters state, that the
admiral had truly conceived the true spirit
of his instructions, and had acted, as
British seamen will always act; namely,
destroy those who, if preserved, would de-
feat the object for which the fleet was
sent out. With respect to the judgment
which posterity has passed upon it, I have
a right to observe, that posterity was quite
satisfied with it; for it secured for many
years the peace of Europe, and saved Italy
from the desolation of war. The people
of England were also satisfied with it;
because the British navy had covered itself
with glory in the transaction, and had
added another to its former triumphs.
And as to the objection-I particularly
beg the attention of the noble seconder to
this observation-as to the objection which
was made by the minister of Spain, and
by the Opposition of England, to its being
a violation of the laws of nations, Mr.
Secretary Craggs in the House of Com-
mons, and lord Stanhope in the House of
Lords,* both answered it, by showing the
designs which the king of Spain was pre-
pared to carry into execution, and by
charging him, in aggravation, with having
attacked the emperor of Germany, when
he was engaged in a war with the com-
mon enemy of Christendom," the Turk.
-And this, my lord, brings me back to
the question from which I started; namely,

Parl. History, vol. vii-pp. 561,564,


Address on the King's Speech.






19 HOUSE OF LORDS,
the propriety of the Speech from the
Throne, styling the Ottoman Porte our
"ancient" ally; for the two Secretaries
stated, in 1718, that the attack made by
Spain upon Germany, when Germany was
at war with the Turks, was a species of
delinquency which rendered all that had
been done justifiable-that it was a sort
of aggression against thp interests of
Christendom and of Europe. Strange
language this, my lords, for an old and
faithful ally! very odd language! But it
was accidental-they were pressed in argu-
ment. Mr. Craggs might state this be-
cause he was pressed in argument, and
did not know what to say; and perhaps
lord Stanhope might say this because he
could say nothing else; but how does it
happen that another Secretary of State,
one of the greatest ornaments this country
ever produced, the friend of lord Stanhope,
had, three years before, said the same
thing? Mr. Addison, who was not only
a philosopher, but one of the wisest and
best men on the face of the earth, remark-
ed upon the bad effect of the numerous
journalists in this country, and the great
spirit of writing and reading politics in the
country, and went on to say, that, though
there was no absurdity to which people,
by this itch for talking and writing politics,
might not be brought, he did not believe
it possible that there could be persons in
England who could think that we were
interested in the prosperity of the Ottoman
empire. Therefore, after the two political
relations we had with Turkey, in one of
which we extorted this very Greece from
the Turks, we have the declaration of two
Secretaries of State, and of another man,
afterwards Secretary of State, as to the
interest which this country has in Ottoman
politics. But, I may be told, these are
old stories: we do not use the word
'ancient' in this kind of sense ; we do not
attach a great deal of meaning to it."
But, what happened afterwards? From
that period to the year 1770, I do not
know anything of political feeling towards
the Turks; nor, indeed, until we come to
the memorable debate in this House on
the affair of Oczakow. Almost every man
who had held office, and had authority,
stated, that the opinion of lord Chatham
was, that we should never have any kind
of connexion whatever with the Ottoman
Porte; and that opinion was fortified
during the seven years' war by a similar
opinion of the king of Prussia, In 1770


Address on the King's Speech. 20
our allies, the Russians, sent a great fleet
into the Mediterranean, for the purpose of
overpowering the Turks. What was the
policy of this country? To assist the
Russian navy. That fleet was refitted in
our harbours, and, with the munitions and
implements which it received from us,
burnt a Turkish town and fleet, and con-
tinued cruising in the Archipelago for no
less than five or six years.-Then we come
to the business of Oczakow. We had an
object in preventing Russia from possessing
Oczakow. My lords, did Mr. Pitt, in that
part of his career-which I do not con-
sider the most honourable part of his ad-
ministration-propose an alliance with
Turkey? Did he come down and say,
"Here is your ancient and faithful ally
that is attacked ?". Did he say, Here is
a power attacked which we are interested
in defending ?" No. Mr. Pitt knew well
enough-he must have known from his
father, there was no sort of alliance be-
tween this country and Turkey, and never
had been; but he said this, "We have
established a new system in Europe "-and
he prided himself upon it-" Prussia forms
a main part of that system, and, for the
interest of Prussia, we must prevent the
proposed aggression of Russia upon
Turkey." My lords, Mr. Pitt was not the
only person who used this language at that
time; but I defy any of your lordships to
show that Mr. Pitt, or any of his friends,
ever spoke of Turkey at that time as our
" ancient ally." There is another indi-
vidual, nearly connected with myself,
whose sentiments upon that occasion I
will not-nay, I dare not-trust myself
with mentioning to your lordships. They
are, however, well known, and will not be
forgotten. Mr. Burke, too, speaking on
the same subject, after the French Revolu-
tion had disappointed the lovers of rational
freedom, and had kindled in his breast a
pious horror of deserting ancient allies
and ancient institutions-Mr. Burke,
speaking, as he always did speak, like a
man of genius and knowledge-what did
Mr. Burke say about our ancient and
faithful ally the Turk ? His words, my
lords, were these-" I have never be-
fore heard it held forth, that the
Turkish empire has ever been con-
sidered as any part of the balance of
power in Europe. They had nothing to
do with Europeanpower; they considered
themselves as wholly Asiatic. Where is
the Turkish resident at our court, the court






21 Address on the King's Speech
of Prussia, or of Holland? They despise
and contemn all Christian princes, as infi-
dels, and only wish to subdue and exter-
minate them and their people. What have
these worse than savages to do with the
powers of Europe, but to spread war, de-
struction, and pestilence amongst them ?
The ministers and the policy which shall
give these people any weight in Europe,
will deserve all the bans and curses of
posterity." Very strange language this
in an English House of Commons, regard-
ing an ancient and faithful ally But let
us see how this mighty master proceeds.-
" All that is holy in religion, all that is
moral and humane, demands an abhorrence
of every thing which tends to extend the
power of that cruel and wasteful empire.
Any Christian power is to be preferred to
these destructive savages."* 1 do not mean
to say that I approve of the sentiments
here expressed. I do not quote them as
rules for the guidance of your lordships ;
but I bring them, if the learned lord on
the woolsack will permit me to use such a
phrase, as evidence to the fact, and for the
purpose of showing that the Turk was not
considered by public men as the ancient
ally of Great Britain. I may even add,
that on the accession of George 1st, to
the throne of this kingdom, it was urged
by the courtiers of that day as a strong
argument in his favour, that he had fleshed
his maiden sword in Greece against the
Turks-a pregnant proof, by the bye, that
the Turk was not at that time considered
as thie ally of Great Britain.-I now come,
my lords, to the first alliance really made
with Turkey by this country. What was
that alliance ? It was an alliance formed
in my time, in the year 1798 or 1799, in
consequence of the invasion of Egypt by
the French, who have often been reproach-
ed with being, though they never acknow-
ledged that they were, the ancient ally of
the Turks. [t has been a reproach to the
French nation that they were an ancient
ally of the Ottoman empire. When they
invaded Egypt, and not before, we entered
into a treaty of alliance with the Porte.
My lords, I have looked into that treaty
this very evening, and I am surprised to
find that, so far from its being a treaty of
alliance formed for the mutual interests of
Turkey and England as against the rest of
the world, or as connected with commerce.
-So far from being a treaty of alliance,

Parl. History, v. xxix, p. 76.


JAW. 29, 1828. 22
formed for the protection of the Turkish
empire against its immediate invaders, it
is a treaty of alliance, at the invitation of
an old and natural ally, the emperor of
Russia, to enter, for the first time, into an
alliance with the Turk. The words of the
first article are as follow:--" His Britannic
majesty, connected already with his majesty
the emperor of Russia by the ties of the
strictest alliance, accedes by the present
treaty, to the defensive alliance, which has
just been concluded between his majesty
the Ottoman emperor and the emperor of
Russia, as far as the stipulations thereof
are applicable to the local circumstances
of his empire, and that of the Sublime
Porte." So that all the alliance which we
then made with the Sublime Porte, was
made through the intervention, and at the
express request, of Russia. Now, at the
end of that treaty it is said, that notwith-
standing the two high contracting parties
are desirous'to maintain it in force for ever,
or at least as long as possible, it appeared
most expedient to limit it at that time for
seven years, to be computed from the day
of the ratifications being exchanged.
Strange to say, long before those seven
years had elapsed, Turkey had broken all
the main articles of that treaty which bound
it to remain at peace with Russia. We had
a right to remonstrate, and we did remon-
strate, against the conduct which it fol-
lowed. It broke them, too, in as far as
they related to us; for they had bound
themselves to have no friends that were
not our friends, and to enter into no rela-

tions with those who declared themselves
our enemies. Many of your lordships
must be aware, that long before the year
1807, we had occasion to remonstrate
against the great influence which general
Sebastiani, an agent of the emperor Na-
poleon, had assumed in the divan. That
of itself would have been a legitimate
ground of war. We refrained, however,
as long as we justly could from hostilities
with the Ottoman Porte; but three months
had not passed after the expiration of the
treaty, before we were obliged to send a
fleet to Constantinople, to enforce our
opinion, and to bring them to reason ; that
is to say, by compelling the performance
of the articles of the treaty with Russia.
-Then, my lords, I do say, that I have
proved to your lordships that Turkey is
neither an ancient nor a faithful ally.
Since that time no alliance has been made:
we have preserved the relations of peace






23 HOUSE OF LORDS,
and amity, but we have done no more. We
have undoubtedly obtained a recognition,
under the treaty, of those rights which had
been granted as a boon so far back as the
time of Charles 2nd. I do not wish to go
at present into the general question of the
justice or policy of the proceeding of this
country on the subject. I do hope that
those who framed the Speech are satisfied
with themselves: for myself, I am con-
vinced that it is much more convenient to
the House, and much more respectful to-
wards his majesty, to defer any decision
until all the papers are before the House.
I only lament there is another word in the
Speech from the throne to which I do not
know what meaning to attach. I certainly
hope that the two noble lords who have
spoken will leave the word out of the ad-
dress, or give us some explanation of it.
I allude to the word "untoward." If it
is meant, by untoward," that any blame
is to be cast on the gallant officer who
commanded the fleet at Navarino, I must
say that against the baseness and ignominy
of such an insinuation I would protest in
the most solemn way. In Johnson's Dic-
tionary the meaning is froward, perverse,
vexatious." If we are to understand from
the word untoward," that it refers to
that which happened by accident, and
which stood across the object which we
had in view- if that be the meaning of it,
I must also protest against it. However
much I may lament the effusion of blood
which has taken place at Navarino-how-
ever much I may lament that we have not
yet accomplished so great an object as the
pacification of two contending countries,
and the liberation of Greece-that coun-
try from which we derived no small por-
tion of all those virtues which exalt and
dignify our nature, and to which we owe
all that gives life and animation to our de-
bates-however much I may mourn over
the deferred hopes of a brave and gallant
people-still if by that word it is meant to
say, that the battle of Navarino is an ob-
stacle to the independence of Greece, I
cannot agree to its justice. I think it has
furthered and promoted it. I look upon
it as a step, and a great step, towards the
pacification of Europe: and consider it of
more use than a contrary policy could
have been, in promoting that great and
desirable object. I defer the discussion
on the other parts of this subject to a
future opportunity. All I wish at pre-
sent to prove is, that those who have


Address on the King's Speech. 24
framed the Treaties to which the Speech
refers, and the great officers who have been
intrusted with the execution of them will
not be considered in so doing to have de-
serted either the ancient ally or the ancient
policy of Great Britain ; and that if, in the
course of their career, they have pursued
an object great and glorious to the coun-
try, and have not completely succeeded in
attaining it, they will receive the praise of
their countrymen for what they have ef-
fected, and not their censure for what they
have found it impossible to execute.-
The noble lord sat down amidst loud
cheers.
Lord King said, that before their lord-
ships separated, he wished to offer a word
or two on a very homely subject, of which,
he was sorry to see there was no mention
either in the Speech from the Throne or
in the Address, though it had occupied no
inconsiderable portion of their lordships'
time during the last session. He meant
the Corn-laws. Now, that subject ap-
peared to him to be, a more difficult sub-
ject for the administration even than the
battle of Navarino. It would be a griev-
ous question to any administration, and
it would not be less so to the present,
seeing that there were in it two or three
avowed friends, two or three decided ene-
mies, and--what was, perhaps, more dan-
gerous than all, two or three concealed
enemies to the Corn-laws. As there were
in the present administration some persons
who had been in the last administration,
and in the administration before the last,
and who most probably would also be
found in the next administration, it was
to be hoped, that while they were busy in
making terms, and no doubt good terms,
for themselves, they had not forgotten to
make equally good terms for their own prin-
ciples of free trade, and for anew Corn-law.
He would, however, ask what security the
country had upon the point? It was said,
that the country had the same President
of the Board of Trade that it had before.
Now, he thought that the country would
have a much better security, if the noble
duke at the head of the government, who
had the whole substantial power-who
had not only the common and ordinary
powers of prime minister, but had concen-
trated in himself the civil and military
power-was known to entertain views fa-
vourable to free trade, and to the subject
to which he alluded; but when he recol-
lected the noble duke's conduct last year,





JAN. 29, 1828. 26


he thought it a most inadequate security
merely to have the continuance of the same
person who, for a few months, had occu-
pied the place of President of the Board
of Trade. The country had been told,
that it had obtained security that the fo-
reign policy of the former administration
would not be departed from, seeing that
it had the same Foreign Secretary still in
office. Now, he considered that security
not a whit better than the security they
had obtained on the other question: he
believed that both those personages were
mere satellites of the person at the head
of the government, and must necessarily
be drawn into his vortex. The old saying,
that there was a power behind the Throne
greater than the Throne itself," seemed to
be totally reversed ; for there seemed to be
a power before the Throne more formida-
ble than the Throne itself. He should be
happy if the securities turned out better
than he expected. He should be de-
lighted to give his support to any mea-
sures of free trade, which, it was said, cer-
tain persons had secured, and should
be greatly disappointed if they were not
carried into effect.
TheDukeof Wellington said:-My lords,
if there be any one subject more than an-
other, on which the country is agreed as
one man, it is, that there should be a com-
plete settlement of the Corn question. I
have, therefore,very great pleasure in being
enabled to inform your lordships, that it
is the intention of his majesty's govern-
ment, at an early period of the present
session, to submit to the consideration of
parliament a measure relative to the Corn-
laws, and for regulating the importation
of corn, founded upon the principle of
the measure which was introduced last
session. Having thus been under the
necessity of addressing your lordships, in
answer to the question put to me by the noble
baron, I hope I may be permitted to say a
few words in answer to what fell from the
noble lord who addressed the House just
now. First, with regard to the term
" ancient ally," I must state that the Ot-
toman power has long been an ally of this
country; that the Ottoman power is an
essential part of the balance of power in
Europe; that the preservation of the Ot-
toman power has been, for a considerable
number of years, an object, not only to
this country, but to the whole of Europe ;
and that the revolutions which have oc-
curred, the changes of possession which


have taken place in that part of the world,
render the preservation of the Ottoman
power as an independent power, capable
of defending itself, an essential object.
My lords, I would likewise say, that not
only has the preservation of that power been
an object to thiscountry, but it has likewise
been an essential object to Russia. I be-
lieve I may safely say that, had it not been
for the influence of the councils of this
country over the Ottoman power during
the late war, the disaster which finally led
to the establishment of Europe in the state
in which it is now found would not have
occurred to the extent to which it did oc-
cur in the year 1812. Under these cir-
cumstances, although the word ancient
ally will not apply to an alliance by trea-
ties of a hundred years standing, yet there
is no doubt whatever that the Ottoman
power has been an ally of this country,
and certainly an old ally. My lords, there
is another term made use of by his majes-
ty in his Speech, and in the Address, I
mean the term "untoward event." My
lords, the sense in which untoward is used
is this. Under the treaty, which has not
yet been laid before the House, and which
cannot come regularly under discussion
until it has been so laid, but which we
have all read, it is particularly stated, as
one of the stipulations of the alliance, that
the operation of the treaty was not to lead
to hostilities, and that the contracting
powers were to take no part in hostilities.
Therefore, my lords, I say, that when, un-
fortunately, the operations under the treaty
did lead to hostilities, it was an untoward
circumstance. My lords, it was hoped
and expected, I believe, by the former
government, that this object would be
effected without hostilities. I believe it,
not only from the treaty itself, but I be-
lieve it because the force they provided to
carry the measure into execution was such
as to render it almost impossible that there
should be hostilities. That being the case,
I say that when these hostilities unfortu-
nately took place, that when the course of
the measures of the late government as-
sumed the character of hostilities, instead
of that of peace, it was an untoward event.
I say, also, that understanding there was
some chance-some prospect-after the
account of this event had reached Con-
stantinople, that it might have ended in
war, that that was an untoward event.
His majesty now tells us, that these
chances have disappeared; he hopes that


Address on the King's Speech.





27 HOUSE OF LORDS,


this event will no longer be an impedi-
ment to the amicable adjustment of the
existing differences between the Porte and
the Greeks; but, nevertheless, that does
not at all deprive the event of its character
of" untoward." The noblebaron opposite
has said, Do you mean to make a charge
against your naval commander ?" Certainly
not. No man has a right to make a
charge against him. His majesty and his
late government, who have had the gal-
lant admiral's conduct under their con-
sideration, have wholly acquitted him of
blame and I certainly have no right to
come forward and say that the gallant ad-
miral has done otherwise than his duty to
his king and his country. I will say, that
the gallant admiral was placed in a very
delicate and peculiar situation. He was
in command of a squadron of ships, acting
in conjunction with admirals of other
nations, and he so conducted himself as
to acquire their confidence, and to induce
them to allow him to lead them to vic-
tory. Feeling this to be the case, I should
feel myself unworthy of the high situation
which I hold in his majesty's councils if I
were capable of uttering a single word
againstthe gallant admiral. Meaning, as
I did, that the government should carry
the Treaty fairly into execution, it would
be highly blamable in me to insinuate a
censure against the man who was charged
with the execution of difficult orders
under that Treaty.
The Earl of Eldon expressed a hope
that, in the arduous situation in which the
country was at present placed, no impedi-
ment would be thrown in the way of the
government, in their efforts for the pre-
servation of the peace of Europe. It could
hardly be said, that there had been an ad-
ministration in the country for the last nine
months. It could hardly be said that there
had been a parliament in the country which
had either considered or done anything for
the sameperiod. Underthesecircumstances,
it was high time to look to the most press-
ing object of British interests,-the pre-
servation of the peace of Europe. He did
not mean to enter into the consideration
of the treaties which had been alluded to,
seeing that they were not at present before
their lordships. If, however, he under-
stood the meaning of those treaties, as he
had read them in various publications, one
of them aimed at the preserving of peace,
and the other provided that hostilities
should not be committed. Yet, in the


face of those treaties, that had takin place
which might assuredly be called an un-
toward event. Let him not be niis-nder-
stood. God forbid that he should throw
any blame on the gallant admiral to whom
reference had been made! No person,
knowing the difficult situation in which
the gallant officer was placed, could, with-
out being acquainted with all the cir-
cumstances of the case, venture to gay
whether he had acted rightly or wiongly.
Still, he could not avoid observing that,
in one sense, the battle of Navtrrino was
an untoward event. When he considered
the actual situation of the country, with
reference to the interests of agriculture,
trade, and finance, there was in his opinion
no one object which could be put in c6m-
petition with the necessity of taking every
step, consistently with the honour of a
great country, to bring about peace. H1
should give his hearty support to the
Address.
The Marquis of Londonderry said, that
the last time he had spoken in that House,
he had expressed his disapprobation of an
unnatural alliance, whichhe had prophecied
would soon dwindle away. A noble lord
opposite had then made a very ingenious
remark; but he would now ask him,
whether recent events had not completely
fulfilled his prophecy? He rejoiced at the
change which had taken place. He trusted
that, under the new administration, the
country would be placed on a high and
commanding situation. The name of the
illustrious individual at the head of the
government carried great weight with it
throughout Europe. In no transaction of
his public life had he failed. Indeed, he -
seemed to have been born under a star
which insured him success. Now that
his noble friend was at the head of the
national councils, he was persuaded the
interests of the country, both at home and
abroad, would be managed in such a way,
as would again raise England to that proud
preeminence from which she had declined
during the last year. The noble earl op-
posite (Grey), than whom no man stood
higher in the public opinion on account of
his rare consistency and noble disinterest-
edness, particularly during the events of
the last year, had said, that a want of
confidence in the person at the head of
government was a fair ground of opposi-
tion to his administration. He would take
the proposition in its converse sense, and
say, that his unbounded confidence in the


Add~ress a~ ths Itimpgs Spieeh.n





Address on the King's Speech.


present premier would induce him to give he had stated, that he would not support--
him his entire support, without reference certainly, that he would not be reckon-
to minor points. He knew that the noble ed a member of-any opposition which
duke at the head of the government was might be formed against that administra-
incapable of allowing any disunion to exist tion. Such was his situation last year;
in his cabinet. Should any part of it be and in a similar situation, he still found
affected by Ihe dry-rot, he would at once himself. He went the full length of the
cut it off. And if that was a reason for noble marquis in the tribute of respect
others to support the noble duke's ad- which he had paid to the noble duke at
ministration, how much stronger must it the head of the government. It was hardly
not be with him, who had for twenty years possible that any person could feel more
served side by side, with that great man, warm admiration towards that distinguish-
in whom he had never seen any thing but ed individual than he did; but in the com-
what ought to be esteemed and admired. position of the administration there were
He said these words honestly and fairly defects which rendered it impossible that
before him ; as, since his noble friend had he could give it his general countenance.
come into his present situation, he had had Nothing could make him happier than to
no other opportunity of testifying his find, as occasions occurred, that the mea-
satisfaction at his appointment. sures of the administration would be of
Earl Grey said, that the noble marquis such a nature as to entitle them to his
had been pleased to speak of him in a support; but, underpresent circumstances,
very kind and much too flattering manner, he must stand aloof, supporting the mea-
He rose now merely for the purpose of sures of government when they seemed
stating distinctly, what he had said on a to be for the advantage of the country, and
former occasion, to which the noble mar- opposing them, however reluctantly, when
quis had alluded, and which did not bear he could not conscientiously believe them
the interpretation that the noble marquis to be of that description. Having now
had put upon it. The noble marquis had said more, perhaps, than enough in ex.
stated, that he (earl Grey) had said, that planation of the conduct of a person of so
a want of confidence in the head of the little consequence as himself, he would
administration was a just ground of op- make a few observations upon what had
position to the administration. Now, occurred that evening. He agreed with
he did not recollect that he had given ex- the learned lord who spoke from the
pression to such a sentiment. He did un- cross-bench, in considering the battle
doubtedly say, that a want of confidence of Navarino a most untoward event. He
in the head of the administration was a was not disposed, from any knowledge
just, nay, the best ground for any man re- which he had of the circumstances of the
fusing his accession to it. He had said, case, to impute blame to the gallant officer
further, that a want of confidence, not in who had commanded upon that occasion.
the head only of an administration-for it He had long been acquainted with sir
was not a personal objection that had Edward Codrington, and could undertake
actuated him in his conduct last year, it to assert, that a better, a braver, or a more
was an objection to the general principle skilful, officer did not exist. He agreed
on which the administration was com- with the noble duke, that it would be ex-
posed-but a want of confidence in an tremely unjust to look with too critical
administration generally, was an effectual an eye at the conduct of an officer placed
bar to a pledge of general support. That in such difficult circumstances as sir
was the situation in which he found him- Edward had been, and who had exerted
self placed last year. He did not see in himself to support what he believed to be
the composition of the cabinet such an the true interest and honour of his country.
assurance for the prosecution of measures It was with the greatest satisfaction he had
and principles which he considered es- heard from the noble duke, that whatever
sential to the good government and pros- word might be employed in the royal
perity of the country, as would induce him Speech, whether untoward or any thing
to give it his general support; and on those else--no intention existed of throwing any
grounds he withheld his support, although imputation on the conduct of that gallant
some members of that administration were officer. With respect to the transaction
persons entitled, in the fullest extent, to itself, he concurred with the learned lord
his confidence. At the same time, however, in thinking it most unfortunate. That the


AAZ. 29, 128.6





31 HOUSE OF LORDS,
effect which was naturally to be expected
from such an event might be averted, he
sincerely trusted ; and the generally pacific
tone of the royal Speech increased his
hopes on this head. His noble friend
behind him (lord Holland), who had ad-
dressed the House with his usual acute-
ness, and had displayed a considerable
extent of information, had, in the course
of a speech, which he must think his noble
friend had better have reserved until the
subject should come under discussion, in-
stituted a parallel between the battle of
Navarino, and an event which had occurred
in the early part of the last century under
sir George Byng. He suspected that,
when the two cases came to be carefully
examined, considerable points of distinc-
tion would be found to exist between them.
Upon this topic, however, he would antici-
pate nothing. Whatever impression he might
have on the subject, he felt it to be be-
coming, and indeed absolutely necessary,
to reserve the expression of his opinions,
until the requisite information should be
laid before their lordships. When the
period to which he alluded arrived, he
should be prepared to state fearlessly, and
without reference to any party interests,
his opinion upon the subject. Before he
sat down, he desired to say one word upon
another topic. A noble friend of his had
put a question with respect to an omission
in the royal Speech, and the noble duke
had stated in reply, that it was the in-
tention of government to introduce a bill
respecting the trade in corn, founded upon
the principle of the bill of last session.
He had voted for that bill on the second
reading, and therefore could have no ob-
jection to the introduction of a bill on the
same principle. Now, he objected to
some of the regulations of the bill of last
session, and thought, besides, that it might
be improved; and therefore, if a bill pre-
cisely similar, should be introduced, it
would, in his opinion, require amendment.
What he was anxious to do was, to direct
the attention of the House to the fact, that
the noble duke had stated only that a bill
would be introduced founded on the same
principles as that of last year; but not
that the same bill would be introduced.
Unless this point were explained, the
noble duke's answer might possibly be
misconstrued.
The Duke of Wellington said, that the
noble earl had rightly understood him.
What he had stated was, that a bill would


Address on the King's Speech. 32
Sbe brought in, founded on the principle
of the measure of last session; certainly
not the same measure.
The Earl of Darnley moved, that the
words, "ancient ally," in the Address, be
omitted, and the words "a country at
peace and amity with us" be substituted
for them.
Earl Ferrers begged to ask the noble
duke at the head of the government, whe-
ther he retained the office of commander-
in-chief of the forces ?
The Duke of Wellington replied, that
when he received his majesty's commands
to form an Administration, he felt great
reluctance to place himself at the head of
it. Finding, however, that it was the
unanimous opinion of his colleagues, that
he ought to occupy that situation, and
finding also that, under the circumstances,
it was not easy to find a person to fill the
office which he now had the honour to
hold, he determined to resign the office of
commander in chief.
The Marquis of Lansdowne said, he did
not rise with the intention of offering
the slightest objection to the Address,
Which it was his ardent wish to see unani-
mously carried; but, after what had been
stated in the course of the discussion,
having recently been honoured with an
office in a situation in his majesty's go-
vernment, he felt himself called upon to
declare, that there was no one act of that
government, but more especially no one of
its acts connected with the transactions
which had been the subject of that night's
conversation, that he would not consider
himself bound to defend. He could as-
sure his noble friend at the head of the
foreign department, who immediately re-
presented the person at the head of that
department before him; whose dying in-
structions he received; and whose inten-
tions he was expected to fulfil; that
whenever he should be called upon to de-
fend the whole of that system of which he
was the representative, from whatever side
of the House the attack might proceed,
he would find in him a sincere and zealous,
though perhaps a useless, supporter. He
felt confident, that even though his noble
friend should not be able to do so, he himself
could satisfy the House of the sound prin-
ciples on which the negotiations had pro-
ceeded. He could also satisfy the House
and the country, that no danger of war
had been unnecessarily incurred by his
majesty's ministers. He was not only





Address on the King's Speeo..


bound to make this declaration, but he felt
it his duty to say, in relation to the recent
conflict, that if any blame did attach any
where, most assuredly it was not on the
gallant officer who commanded the fleet.
He agreed with the noble duke oppo-
site, and with other noble lords who had
spoken, that the battle of Navarino was
an unfortunate circumstance, inasmuch as
it occasioned the destruction of life, and
tended to lead to those unhappy conse-
quences, which always contributed to
alienate friendly powers, and to set them
in something like interminable hostility
with each other; but, at the same time,
he should be ashamed if he did not
declare that it would be childish to expect
that when an armed interference had been
determined on by treaty, it could take
place without the risk of war. He agreed
with the noble duke in thinking, that war
should not take place, if the objects of the
intervention could be effected without it;
but the consequences of opposition must
have been foreseen by those who framed the
protocol and the treaty of London. There
was no meaning in establishing a hostile
intervention unless we were prepared to
encounter all the consequences which
must result from it, melancholy as they
might be. He hoped his majesty's minis-
ters would be able to prove that no blame
rested any where; but that the conduct
of our commander at Navarino was part of
the policy which he had not heard, in the
course of that night's debate, it was in-
tended to change; but, if ministers enter-
tained any such intention, he hoped they
would have the manliness to avow it. If,
however, blame rested any where, it would
be easy to prove that it did not rest with
the gallant individual who had been so
frequently alluded to, and never without
praise and honour, but with those who con-
cluded the treaties that had placed him in
the situation in which he appeared to have
exercised a sound discretion, with refer-
ence to his sense of duty. Although he
was anxious that the Address should be
carried without opposition, he could not
have given it his support without the ex-
planation from the noble duke with respect
to the term "untoward," as applied to
that gallant commander who had presided
over the allied fleets during the conflict.
When the documents should be laid before
their lordships, it would appear that the
gallant officer was intrusted with a neces-
sarily large, but well and fairly-exercised,
VOL. XVIII.


discretion. He hoped that, in justice to
the gallant admiral, all the documents pos-
sible would be produced. On the intel-
ligence of the affair at Navarino reaching
this country, it was found that further in-
formation was wanting. That information
was supplied; and being supplied, it was
seen that the gallant admiral was entitled
to the warm approbation of the govern-
ment and of the country. It was not in-
cumbent on him to say more upon the
present occasion. With respect to other
events, he was prepared to give the fullest
explanation when called upon. He had
risen merely to enter his protest on behalf
of a gallant individual, who was entitled
to the protection, not of his friends alone,
but of every individual who possessed a
particle of British honour.
Lord Goderich said, that, having been a
member of the government under which
the noble duke had been instructed to sign
the protocol at St. Petersburgh, and
having also been a party to the treaty of
London, he felt it due to his own charac-
ter to say that he subscribed entirely to all
that had fallen from his noble friend who
had spoken last. Whenever the time
should arrive for discussing the course of
policy in which he had had a share, he
should be prepared to express his sen-
timents with the same fearlessness with
which he now addressed their lordships;
and he concurred with his noble friend in
believing, that it would not be difficult to
prove, that there was nothing in that
policy, or in the particular transaction
growing out of it, inconsistent with the
honour of the country or its best interests.
He entirely concurred in all that had been
said respecting the conduct of sir Edward
Codrington. In his opinion he had exer-
cised a sound discretion. He was placed
in circumstances of no ordinary difficulty,
and he had discharged his duty with con-
summate skill and courage. He was pre-
pared to support the gallant admiral, not
only on the principle that it was the duty
of a government to support those who
executed their orders, but from a deliber-
ate conviction that he was justified, under
the circumstances, in the course which he
had taken, and that in taking that course he
had neither tarnished his own previously
acquired fame, nor sullied the honour and
glory of his country.
Earl Dudley said, that his noble friend
at the head of the government had stated,
that the foreign policy which had been
C


JAN. 29, 1828.





;g HOUSE OF COMMONS,
glopted by the late administration, would
i persevered in; and that he desired,
alsp, to confirm what his noble friend had
asserted. With regard to the affair at
Navayino, he concurred in all that had
been said ip praise of Pbe course pursued
by sir Edward Codri-gton.
The Address was agreed to iewm. diss.
The usual sessional orders were voted,
aud tpe earl of Shaftes Fry was appointed
chairman of committees.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, January 29.
STATE o T'E LAw NDp ITS ADMINIq-
W4#TIPN.] ]Mr. Prougham gave notice
that, on the 7th of February, he would
submit to the House a motion, touhing
the state of the Law of this Country, and
ts A administration in thp Courts of Justice,
with p view to such Reformq ip the sap~e
ag time may have rendered necessary, and
experience pay have shewn to be ex-
pedient.
COURT or CHANCERY.] ir. X. 4.
Taylor gave notice, that on t4e 12th of
February he would move fpr c,(italn
returns connected with the Court pf
Chancery, preparatory to a gpper4l iolti;pn
relative to the Delays and Abuses in that
Court.
ADDRLSS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.]
The Speaker acquainted thp hJpuse, that
the Hpuse had been in thp House of Lords,
tp hear the Speeph of the cprds Com-
mnissciojtr, of which, tq prevept tmiptes,
ae had obtained a copy. After he had
read it to the Huse,
The Ion. Cecil Jenkinson said: --In
rising, Sir, on the present pcc sion, po
rpve, that an humble Addresr be pre-i
sented to his Majesty, I mpst observe, in
the outset, that no degree of confidence in
my own powers has placed me in this
situation : on the contrary, there is no
man more difdent of himself, and with
reason, than I am. I am not, indeed, a
young member, but I have troubled the
H.ouqe very seldom upon any subject of
discussion that has come before it. Hav-
ing mentioned this circumstance, I may
add, that, as long as a person-to whom I
can hardly allude without an emotion
which deprives me of the little power I
have of expit- sig myself-as long as that
person, I mean my noble brother, was not


only at the head of the cpFRnip gf his
Souer- lioi. Put in a sitq4tion of most
exalted estimation with the whplf cp lry,
it was needless for me to trouble the
House with rpy owp priyvtp ppmiois; f r
on all public matters 4hey were inlariably
in accordance wjih thqsp lyjh he as
so well able to deplare. He possessed a
faculty t which I have no prdk.Lsion s:
he had eloquence tp describe evey feeling
and impulse in his cp'preliegnivp mind-
a mind so comprehensjye, thaI it empbrsled
every thing calculated tp I1jcr ase the
greatness or promote the w-elftri of his
country. I qply touch lighlJy upon this
subject, because I c4nnpt but feel the
strongest emotions whenever my mind is
turned to the present situation of my poor
brother [hear!]. Knpwing, as I do, how-
ever, that since his unfortunate malady, as
often as his attention has been directed
that way, he has felt and expressed the
greatest anxiety for the ppptinued glory
and (iprspeity of his country, I coqld not
refrain from stating thus much.-I would
al.o advert iuriorily to another event
eqpeply to be regretted, whipc has occurred
sipce the Ip!eln-lcholy ipc4pability of Iprd
iyerpool. I allude to the death pfaman
of the greatest eloquence-,a statesian.
to whom I have often listened with the
highest admiration; for whom I am con-
fident my brother, both frpm early cn-
uection and warm admiration f his talents,
had the strpngest regard; and with whom
he had formed an early and most intimate
friendship, founded upon mutual esteem.
I never shall forget the effect pro4 ced by
that right hpn. gentleman's commanding
eloquence; and, in my feeblp way, and in
the only mode in which I am capable of
stating it, I must express of it my profound
admiRtion. But he is no more-still 'Qore
completely so than my poor brother; and
Providence having disposed of these two
great men-I hope I may in justice be
allowed to call my brother great, as well
as the late Mr. Canning-eyery body
looked with anxiety to the establishment
of a new Administration, which should
embody all the sentiments, and receive all
that approbation, which I believe generally
characterized and followed my brother's
government, through a long series of years
[hear !]. Upon this part of the subject I
hope I have not trespassed too far. I hope
I have not pressed my ideas of the respect
entertained for lord Liyerppol beyond
what it will bear. I am aware that it is a






44dfres pa the I4ipP's Speech.


very delicate matter for pie to state my
respect and veneration for one so pear
and dear to me, without requiring too
much of the patience of the House.-
Leaving, therefore, personal questions, I
may observe, after being perfectly pos-
sessed of every circumstance, I am con-
vinced that lord Liverpool concurs in the
formation of that AdriPnistratipp, the new
writs for various members pf which have
been mpved this very day. He is satisfied
with the principles on which it is founded,
and is persuaded that it embodies all the
interest to which he was so long and
so dearly attached. He approves it as
p'optainipg many of, if not all, the distin-
guished persons with whom he was him-
self closely connected; but, if there be
one circumstance of satisfaction more pro-
minent than another, it is that which I
may fitly notice; namely, the re-admission
of the right hon. the late member of the
University of Oxford. A near and dear
connection long subsisted between that in-
dividual and my noble brother, and his
services will be particularly acceptable to
the country, as Secretary of State for
the Home Department. That right hon.
gentleman was introduced into public life
by lord Liverpool, and was, in the first
instance, Upder Secretary in the very office
over which he now presides. From thecom-
mencement of their acquaintance the most
unbounded confidence and concurrence
upon every political question have existed
between them. With this feeling, and
under this persuasion, I am not wrong, I
think, in supposing, in the general sense,
that lord Liverpool highly approves of the
Administration just formed ; and I beg
distinctly to stqte, that in making my
appearance before the House on the
present occasion, I am warranted by the
approbation and authority of my noble
brother. I wish it, nevertheless, to be
clearly understood, that my own inclina-
tion has solely prompted me to come
forward. It was my own proposition that
I should move the Address; and if in what
I have said, I have let fall any thing
objectionable, or that may be unpleasant
or ungrateful to the feelings of any hon.
member, I beg leave to express my regret
at the circumstance. I hope I have
guarded myself, and that I have not been
guilty of any presumptuousness in what I
have offered respecting my brother or my-
self. I introduce myself, at the present
moment, from w sense of public duty, and


only at my own suggestion.-Having thug
prepared my way, I shall only offpr a few
words upon the Address, with which I
shall conclude; as there are few topics in
the Speech from the Throne which will
not meet with the full concurrence of the
House. As to the struggle in Greece agn
in the Greek Islands, it must be evident to
all who consider the subject, that it was im-
possible such violations of the laws of hu-
manity and neutrality could be allowed to
continue, without an interference. But the
period for examination into all the circum-
stances of the case has rot yet arrived. The
opinion which the House shall form must,
of course, depend upon what may appear
in the papers which his majesty has signi-
fied his intention of laying before the
House. The Address which I shall have
the honour of moving, will pledge the
House to nothing but a grateful expression
of feeling towards his majesty, for the
promised production of the papers, without
giving the slightest measure of approbation.
The mention in the Speech of the battle
of Navarin evidently calls for the expres-
sion of no opinion on the part of the
House. If discussion arise upon it, it
should follow an inquiry into all the cir-
cumstances of the case; and, until the
papers are laid upon the table, it would
be premature and fruitless to debate the
question. My personal regard for the
gallant officer who commanded the British
squadron makes me wish to say a few
words in his praise; and having myself,
early in life, belonged to the same noble
profession, no man feels more strongly
than I do the gallant manner in which
that important service was executed. Upon
that poipt there can be no dispute, and,
therefore, no discussion; indeed, if there
were any danger of the kind, I should be
the last man to provoke it. With regard
to the conduct of this country towards
Portugal, there will, I apprehend, be as
little difference of opinion. The sending
out of the troops was debated before they
were despatched; and I was one of those
who had the pleasure of hearing the elo-
quent personage I have before mentioned
more than once in defence of that measure.
It now appears that the troops are about
to be recalled; and to this arrangement,
certainly, no man is likely to object. The
Treaties with Brazil and Mexico must be
considered as the earnest of future ad-
vantage to this country : the extent of that
advantage must, of course, depend upon
C2


JAN. 29, 1828.






39 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
circumstances; but, at all events, the
documents are evidence of the efforts of
the British government to extend the trade
and augment the commercial prosperity of
the country.-Another, and an important,
topic in the Speech relates to the exami-
nation of the receipts and expenditure of
the empire; and upon it I beg to be
allowed to say only a few words. In ad-
verting to the momentous subject in the
trifling and imperfect way in which I must
do it, I beg to state my perfect and firm
conviction, that this country, in itself,
possesses resources which-if administered
with wisdom, and assisted and improved
by that unbounded confidence which is
due by a nation to a government vested
in the hands of persons who have been
long tried and are known to be worthy
of such confidence-are capable of extri-
cating it from any difficulties, however for-
midable. Let the House look back at the
circumstances which have occurred in the
past history of the country. Let them
look to the period of the war of the Suc-
cession. Do they not prove that there is
in the nation a power of revivification, or
of internal restoration, from the most de-
pressing circumstances. I will not insist
upon these details, since they are, no
doubt, much more familiar to the House
than to myself. But I will say, that the
greatest glory which could mark the career
of any ministry would be, to accomplish
such a restoration of national prosperity
and strength. That glory belonged, in a
peculiar degree, to sir Robert Walpole,
who restored the finances of the country
to a state of prosperity, after the depress-
ing effects of the wars of king William
and of the Succession. The debts which
were then incurred undoubtedly cannot be
compared with the debt incurred at a more
recent period; but, in a certain degree,
they are comparable, and the circumstance
fully warrants the conclusion, that this
country, through the elasticity of its re-
sources, will again rise to a prosperous
and happy condition. Such an achieve-
ment, I repeat, would confer the greatest
glory upon any ministry. I am not the
man who would under-rate the glories
which encircle the name of Pitt. I am
not the person to undervalue the result of
that illustrious statesman's exertions in
preserving this country from the effects of
the revolutionary mania which then threat-
ened desolation to Europe : but I conceive
that the brightest glory which crowned the


Address on the King's Speech. 40
fame of that great man was the circum-
stance of his having restored the finances
of this country, after the great depression
produced in them by the American war,
to a state of the highest prosperity. There
are many circumstances, at present, which
weigh heavily upon the national prosperity;
and, amongst them, there are none, in my
opinion, more formidable than the many
changes which have taken place in the value
of property. When I talk of the pressure
arising out of the late war, I know perfectly
well that it is now fourteen or fifteen years
since peace was concluded ; but the varia-
tion in the value of property has been bane-
fully operating during the whole of that
period. I am aware that I may talk igno-
rantly upon a subject of this sort; but
what I advance is my honest conviction,
and that is the best excuse I can make for
offering it to the House. In the variations
in the value of property, we must look for
the cause of the depression; and, until
those variations are adjudicated, it is
vain to expect prosperity in the financial
condition of the country. I know well
that, in time, that happy result will be ob-
tained, and that the growing resources of
the country will not alone extricate it from
its present difficulties, but, looking at those
resources, I confidently predict, that still
greater prosperity is in store for us. On
this subject it ismymost anxious and ardent
wish, that the various interests should feel
the necessity of conciliating and co-operat-
ing with each other. Each has an essential
dependence upon the others, and none can
subsist opposed to or detached from the
rest. For my own part, I have, for many
years, been connected with, and wholly de-
pendant upon, the agricultural interest;
and am firmly assured, that nothing but a
complete fraternity of feeling between the
commercial and manufacturing interests,
can possibly effect any of those purposes
which the most sanguine may contemplate.
I, therefore, exhort the House, as the repre-
sentative of those different interests, and
combining in itself the elements of which
each is composed, to adopt those concili-
atory and comprehensive measures bywhich
the joint benefit of all classes can be achiev-
ed, and the distress of each, as far as pos-
sible, alleviated; and to endeavour to ac-
complish these most desirable objects, not
by any false and partial view, not by any
niggardly catching at what may appear to
be the separate interest of any one particu-
lar body whom they may individually repre-








sent, but by the consolidation of the joint Humbly to thank his Majesty for the
and only true interests of all.-These, Sir, communication which he has made to us,
are the views which I have formed of the that his Majesty having been earnestly en-
line of policy that ought to be adopted. I treated by the Greeks to interpose his good
fear that, in the few observations with which offices, with a view to effect a reconciliation
I have troubled the House, something may between them and the Ottoman Porte, had
have escaped me which may expose me to concerted measures for that purpose in the
ridicule, or perhaps contempt. But I am first instance with the emperor of Russia,
conscious of the rectitude of my sentiments. and subsequently with his Imperial Majesty
I have, therefore, given expression to them, and the king of France.
feeling it a duty to lend my humble and And also for the directions which his
feeble aid to second the voice of the House, Majesty has been pleased to give, that there
and, as I confidently trust, of the country, should be laid before us copies of a Proto-
in pronouncing the present administration col, signed at St. Petersburgh by the Pie-
worthy of public confidence. Having de- nipotentiaries of his Majesty and of his
scribed, as shortly as possible, and as well Imperial Majesty the emperor of Russia,
as I am able, the feelings which I enter- on the 4th of April, 1826, and of the
tain, and the motives by which I am ac- Treaty entered into between his Majesty
tuated, I shall conclude with moving, and the Courts of the Tuileries and of St.
That an humble Address be presented Petersburgh, on the 6th of July, 1827.
to his Majesty-to return his Majesty our To thank his Majesty, for having in-
humble thanks for the gracious Speech formed us, that in the course of the mea-
which his Majesty has directed to be de- sures adopted with a view to carry into
livered by the Lords Commissioners. effect the object of the Treaty, a collision,
To assure his Majesty, that we feel the wholly unexpected by his Majesty, took
greatest satisfaction in learning that his place in the Port of Navarin, between the
Majestycontinues toreceive from all foreign fleets of the contracting powers and that
princes and states, assurances of their de- of the Ottoman Porte.
sire to maintain the relations of amity with To assure his Majesty, that we parti-
this country; and that the great powers of cipate in the regret expressed by his Ma-
Europe participate in the earnest wish of jesty, notwithstanding the valour displayed
his Majesty, to cultivate a good understand- by the combined fleet, that a conflict should
ing upon all points which may conduce to have occurred with the naval force of an
the preservation of peace. ancient ally, and that we rejoice to learn
To express to his Majesty our deep that his Majesty still entertains a confident
regret that the state of affairs in the East hope that this untoward event will not be
of Europe should have been the subject of followed by further hostilities, and will not
great concern to his Majesty; and that a impede that amicable adjustment of the
contest should have been so long carried on existing differences between the Porte and
between the Ottoman Porte and the inha- the Greeks, to which it is so manifestly
bitants of the Greek Provinces and Islands, their common interest to accede.
which has been marked on each side by To express to his Majesty our sincere
excesses revolting to humanity. satisfaction in learning that it is his Ma-
To assure his Majesty, that our regret jesty's determination in maintaining the
is increased by learning, that in the pro- national faith, by adhering to the engage-
gress of that contest, the rights of neutral ments into which his Majestyhas entered,
states, and the laws which regulate the in- never to lose sight of the great objects to
tercourse of civilized nations, have been re- which all his Majesty's efforts have been
peatedly violated, and the peaceful com- directed-the termination of the contest
merce of his Majesty's subjects has been ex- between the hostile parties-the permanent
posed to frequent interruption, and to de- settlement of their future relations to each
predations, too often aggravated by acts of other-and the maintenance of the repose
violence and atrocity. of Europe upon the basis on which it has
"To assure his Majesty, that we partici- rested since the last general Treaty of
pate in the deep anxiety felt by his Majesty, Peace.
to terminate the calamities, and avert the "To assure his Majesty that we are
dangers, inseparable from hostilities, which highly gratified by learning that the pur-
constitute the only exception to the general poses for which his Majesty, upon the re-
tranquillity of Europe. quisition of the Court of Lisbon, detached


Address on the King's Sp3eech.


JAN. 29, 1828. 42







43 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
a Military Force to Portugal, have been
accomplished, and that the obligations of
gdod faith having been fulfilled, and the
safety and independence of Portugal se-
cuied, his Majesty has given orders that
the forces now in that country should be
immediately withdrawn.
"To thank his Majesty for having di-
iected to be laid before us copies of the
Treaties of Amity and Commerce which
his Majesty has concluded with the em-
peroi of Brazil, and with the United States
of Mexico.
To return our acknowledgments to his
Majesty, for having ordered the Estimates
for the current year to be laid before us,
ahd for the assurance that they have been
prepared with every regard to economy
consistent with the exigency of the Public
Service.
To assure his Majesty, that we will,
in pursuance of his Majesty's recommend-
ation, institute an early inquiry into the
state of the Revenue and Expenditure of
the country.
To express to his Majesty our satis-
faction in learning that, notwithstanding
the diminution which has taken place in
some branches of the Revenue, the total
amount of receipt during the last year has
hot disappointed the expectations which
were entertained at the commencement of
it, and that a considerable increase has
taken place in the export of the principal
I articles of British manufacture.
To assure his Majesty, that this im-
provement of our foreign trade is peculiarly
gratifying to us, on account of its having
led to a more general employment of the
population, and because it is a satisfactory
indication of the continued abatement of
those commercial difficulties which recently
affected so severely the national industry.
To return to his Majesty our grateful
acknowledgments for the confidence which
he has been pleased to express in our con-
tinued desire to improve he condition of
all classes of his Majesty's subjects, and to
recognize the paternal goodness of his Ma-
jesty in recommending to our care, as the
first object of his Majesty's solicitude, the
prosperity and happiness of his people."
Mr. Robert Grant said:-I rise, Sir, for
the purpose of seconding the Address. I
know not whether I am expected to notice
all the topics treated of in the Speech
from the Throne, but I certainly do not feel
it necessary at this time, point by point, to
go over them. There are, indeed, some, to


Address ohn i6e kings Speech. 44
whidh, as a matter of expediency, it mhay
hot be proper, at this moment, .to advert.
The absence of most of the principal mem-
bers of his majesty's government, certainly,
by no means takes from the House the
right, or abridges the right, of free dis-
cussion ; but, at the same time, it would
be inconvenient and unsatisfactory to at-
tempt to enter upon questions intimately
connected with disputable measures, in the
absence of those whose duty it is to sustain
those measures. For this reason, therefore,
without imputing the slightest degree of
blame to the hon. mover, I shall pass over
some of the points to which he has advert-
ed. I am perfectly ready to acquiesce in
the doctrine, that no ministry ought to pre-
sume on the confidence of the Crown, or
on thb confidence of parliament ahd the
country, which is not prepared to face all
the topics introduced by th6 hdh. gentle-
man. But the period of the absence of the
chief members of that ministry does not
seem to me precisely the time for entering
upon such a discussion. I do not thus
mean at all to question the individual act
of the hon. mover. He has a perfect right
to state the grounds on which he thinks fit
to support this or that government; and,
if it were possible for criticism to attack
any speech, sure 1 am that criticism Would
be disarmed by the diffidence with which
that speech was delivered, and the amiable
effusions of fraternal love and affection
which it displayed;-The most gracious
Speech of his majesty dwells, at some
length, on the pacific state of Europe, and
represents it as being, in the main, in a
state of perfect and continued tranquillity;
at the same time it points out two excep-
tions to this picture of unrelieved repose.
One is a case undoubtedly of the deepest
interest; but, from the terms of the Speech,
we gather that it has become a source only
of joyful recollection. In the other, we
are still kept in a state of anxious, but I
trust neither painful nor fearful suspense:
the one affects the Western, the other the
Eastern side of Europe: the one directs
our view to Portugal; the other to Greece.
About twelve months have now elapsed
since our troops disembarked on the shores
of the Peninsula, for the defence of a por-
tionrof it, and in fulfilment of solemn treaties
with Portugal, the ancient and faithful ally
of Great Britain. Such were the motives
which dictated the expedition. Upon the
faith of treaties, Great Britain was called
on to preserve the national independence






Address on the King's Speech.


of that kingdom, with which her interests
had always been closely connected. Ob-
jections to the expedition did, however,
exist; not on the score of injustice or im-
propriety, but that it was calculated to
throw additional burthens on the partially
exhausted resources of this country. I see
one hon. member now in his place who en-
forced this point with much effect. He
urged, that, although the enterprise was
indispensable, there was some danger lest
it should lead to disagreeable results. It
was possible that it might kindle a war of
opinion, the consequences of which might
be incalculably disastrous. But I find in
the king's Speech that which must at once
allay all apprehension. We are told that
our troops are on the point of returning to
our shores : having achieved the object for
which they were despatched by the influence
of their presence, they are about to revisit
their native land, crowned with victory-
neither the less grateful, nor the less glo-
rious, because it has been bloodless. What-
ever might be the difference of opinion at
the outset of the expeditiona-some support-
ing because it was recommended by justice
and policy, and others resisting it, because
it might tend to disastrous results-assur-
edly, the conclusion of the enterprise must
lead to united opinion in its favour. Not
a syllable was even breathed against its
justice; and all classes may now join in
one feeling of hearty congratulation. The
soil of Portugal has been protected from
invasion ; the treasury of Great Britain has
been, in a great degree, undrained; and the
sword of Great Britain has been returned
unstained into its scabbard. It was, I
think, impossible to touch upon the circum-
stances connected with the Portuguese ex-
pedition without having the mind forcibly
recalled to the memory of the distinguished
individual by whom that movement was
planned and executed; of whose policy
it may be truly said to be the dying effort;
and respecting whom, whatever difference
may have prevailed upon particular events,
there will, I am sure, remain but one feel-
ing of affectionate regret and regard, for
the memory of a statesman, who was for
so many years, the delight and ornament
of this assembly. Providence fortunately
preserved him for that last achievement; it
had reserved it for one who had the wisdom
to project, and the power to execute it:
and, though now removed from the control
of human events, history will inseparably
associate his name with the renown of the


measure, and inscribe it ipon the column
erected to attest national glory. Quitting
the topic of Portugal, there are some others
to which I must be allowed to refer. In
the first place, I must beg leave to remark
on that part of his majesty's Speech which
refers to the present contest between Greece
and the Ottoman Porte. It has, no doubt,
been observed by the House, that his ma-
jesty's Speech is, on this subject, confined
to certain facts which are already before us.
In the exposition of the views of govern-
ment on this question there are certain
points on which I entertain little doubt
that we shall all be unanimous. There can
be no question that the quarrel between
the two states has given rise to a most san-
guinary contest between the parties inter-
ested, and that it has been carried to such
an extent, as to involve almost all the shores
of the Mediterranean in the consequences,
and to disturb the peace of the countries
more immediately in the vicinity of the seat
of war. I am most willing to believe, that
the allied powers, who have interfered in
this question, are impelled by an anxiety
to establish a system of affairs on a just
and equitable foundation; and, as far as
these points go, I think that the House
will not hesitate in agreeing with me. But
further than this, we can m arel). with
safety, proceed : for, as we have no au-
thentic documents relative to the last pro-
ceedings which have taken place before us,
I do not see how we can well enter into the
question of what has been proper, and of
what has been improper, in the course pur-
sued. The House will, no doubt, observe,
that the Address which I have the honour
to second, follows the same line as that
which I have been laying down. It
contents itself with thanking his majesty
for the communication which he has made
us; but it in no way pledges the House to
any opinion. There is one point con-
nected with this question, however, on
which I wish to add a word ; though I am
ready to admit that silence, generally
speaking, would at present be preferable.
The point on which I would speak, cer-
tainly presents to me a degree of difficulty
which I cannot help feeling-little as it
appears to affect others. If it be asked,
generally, whether, under any circum-
stances it is either proper or consistent,
for foreign nations to interfere-and not
merely to interfere, but to interfere coer-
cively between two states at war with
each other, I am free to confess that the


JAN. 29, 1828.







question is replete with difficulties. I be- of opinion on this point, previous to the
lieve it must be admitted, that all writers question being settled. Certainly any col-
on the subject have laid down non-inter- elected expression of opinion, and possibly
ference as the general rule; and, in a even an individual opinion, might, at the
question so important as the present, we present epoch, incur the chance of dis-
must look in every direction ; not that I turbing that tranquillity, the restoration of
mean to say that there are to be no excep- which every one must be desirous to wit-
tions to this general rule, but they must ness. I do not intend to trouble the
be confined to cases so special and pecu- House with minute remarks on all the
liar, that, on the face of them, the pecu- topics which are touched upon in the
liarity mustbe discernible. If, then, when Speech from the Throne ; but there is one
only one single nation is concerned in the to which I must allude for a minute before
interference, the matter requires such I sit down-I mean that part of the
caution, it must be doubly so, when the Speech which alludes to the internal situa-
affair is undertaken by a confederacy; for, tion of this country, and the measures
however single-hearted any one of the which are contemplated for its ameliora-
nations may be in its purpose, it cannot tion. I do not mean to enter into the
answer for the designs of the others; consideration of the causes of our com-
neither can it be sure, that the same mercial depression, nor into the discus-
wisdom, the same good faith, and the sion of any measures likely to be proposed
same moderation, are actuating its allies, for their relief. There is nothing easier
But though all this makes it unsafe to in- than to indulge in florid descriptions of
terfere, there certainly have been and may pleasing anticipations and sanguine hopes;
be cases, where it would be our duty to but the royal Speech wisely abstains from
interfere between two belligerents : for as any extravagance of that nature : it fairly
in England it has never been a question, and plainly says, that some improvement
that a nation, under certain circumstances, has taken place, but that much yet re-
has a right to revolt, it wouldbe the gross- mains to be done; and it calls upon par-
est of absurdities to suppose, that its allies liament to take the matter into its fullest
are to be deprived of the right of aiding consideration, and thereby to discharge a
them in their exertions. We ourselves have, necessary, though a most laborious, duty.
in former times, lent armed assistance to There are certain evils, however, under
Holland, when she was oppressed, and which the country is suffering, to which I
which she still remembers with gratitude; doubt whether it is in the power of the
and, at another period, we had received legislature to apply a direct remedy, I
from the same country succour and support. mean the evils of depression, which are
I trust that the House will pardon me still affecting the productive classes. This
for having detained it so long on this sub- is the subject that is pressed upon our
ject; but as I could not fail to be sensible attention; and we can have no objection
to the deep importance attached to it, I to pledge ourselves to the prosecution of
was anxious that what I had to say on the the inquiry how far the public expendi-
matter should notbe misunderstood; and if ture may be reduced, consistently with the
I have declined giving any distant opinion necessary demands of the country, and in
on certain points connected with this topic, what degree we may be able to improve the
I have done so, not because I wished to internal condition of the people. With re-
shrink from it, but from the circumstance spect to themanufacturingclasses, to which
of the whole facts of the case not being be- the Speech has alluded, I believe that one
fore the House, and because I did not feel of the chief causes of the depression under
myself at liberty to decide without the which they are suffering, is far removed
fullest information. There is another beyond the control of the House. I am
reason also, why I wish to be very cau- afraid we must not be sanguine enough to
tious; and that is, because we learn from hope that the improvement of their con-
his majesty's Speech, that there is still a edition will be rapid; and I cannot help
hope that negotiations between the parties feeling a great doubt, whether parliament,
will go on, and lead to a compromise with- with all its boasted omnipotence, will be
out resorting to extreme measures. If abletoaccelerate sodesirableanevent, This,
this should turn out to be the case, the however, so far from furnishing any ex-
House will see how necessary it is to be cuse for remissness on our parts, should,
-cautious how it comes to any expression on the contrary, furnish the strongest mo-


47 HOUSE, OF COMMONS,


Address on the King's Speech.






49 Address on the King's Speech.
tives for activity. Whatever our success
may be likely to be, let us at all events do
our best; so that at least the country may
see, and we ourselves feel, that every thing
has been done by us that could be done,
in the honest and faithful discharge of our
duty; and though, on some occasions, the
disposition of the people of England may
be wayward, yet I have sufficient faith in
their good sense and candour, to believe,
that when they see parliament exerting
itself for their benefit, they will afford it
a firm co-operation and assistance. By
pursuing, therefore, the course, pointed
out to us by the Crown, we shall be dis-
charging our duty to them and to our-
selves; and assuredly, if we may judge
from the tenor of the Speech which we
have heard this night, we may conclude,
that in promoting the happiness of the
people, we shall effectually be promoting
one of the most earnest objects of his ma-
jesty's solicitude.
Mr. Brougham said, he agreed most
entirely in one of the observations of his
hon. and learned friend who had just
seconded the Address, and the propriety of
which must indeed receive a general and
unqualified assent; namely, that circum-
stances rendered the present time most
inconvenient for the discussion of the
several important matters referred to
in the Speech from the Throne. At
the same time, he must, on his own
part, as well as on that of the con-
stitutional authority of the House,
assert the unquestionable right of every
member to discuss, if it so pleased him,
every part of the Speech which had been
read from the chair, just as if the whole
of his majesty's ministers were at that
moment in their seats in parliament. But,
while he asserted such a right he assented
to the manifest inexpediency of the pre-
sent time for entertaining that discussion,
because it would not be quite consistent
with perfect fairness and candour, to enter
at once upon the consideration of so great
a variety of topics, in the absence of those
who were bound to explain and defend
them. He owned, however, at the same
time, his wish, that his hon. and learned
friend, the seconder, as well as the hon.
mover of the Address, had suggested to
their own minds the propriety of following
themselves the advice which they had re-
commended to others. It was a little
inconsistent that their own conduct should
be an exception to their own admonition ;


JAN. 29, 1828. 50
and rather singular that they should un-
hesitatingly depart from that advice,
which with so much propriety as well as
justice they had been pleased to impart
to others. It was one thing to say that
the means of discussion were not at present
within the reach of the House, nor the
men present whose measures and conduct
were to be discussed, therefore candour
suggested that the attack (if attack there
was to be) ought not to be made until the
defence could fairly be produced; and it
was quite another thing at the same
moment to discuss these very topics on
one side, and forbid all allusion to them
on the other. An abstinence on both
sides would have been fair and proper; but
to give this advice in one breath, and to
depart from it widely in the next, by
entering elaborately into all the topics
upon which difference of opinion might
be reasonably presumed, and only pre-
serving silence upon those points on which
all were agreed, was, to say the least of it,
remarkably inconsistent. See the pain
which must be imposed by such a course.
You profess a desire to prevent discussion
in the absence of the ministers, but you
place your opponents in the unpleasant
situation of hearing that discussion, ex
parte, and being, for urgent reasons, inter-
dicted from all reply. Yet, such was the
position in which they were placed by the
course that had been so singularly pursued
on the present occasion. The hon. mover
had come forward with his, as it were,
plenary approbation of the Speech from
the Throne. He was, no doubt, perfectly
right in giving his approval, and no blame
attached to him for accompanying the
declaration with his reasons; but, it was
rather hard, while this was done on one
side, that members should be called upon
to hold their peace on the other [hear !].
There was no excuse for this inconsistency,
of giving a plenary approbation of the
breaking up of the old Administration,
even coupled as it was with the lesson
which the hon. mover had brought down to
them from his noble relative, the earl of
Liverpool, who wished to have it noti-
fied to the House that he approved of
the construction of the new Administra-
tion. Glad, indeed, he was, to hear of
the noble earl's convalescence; for he, as
well as the public, had thought that the
noble lord was neither in a condition to
take advice, nor to understand the import-
ant topics upon which he was said to have






bi HOUSE 6PF d6iMONS,
given any: but he must beg at the saii6m
time, with every proper feeling of delidacy,
to jct to th delivery of this kind of
mIielsge from the noble earl, respectable
as he was in private life, and in all his
domestic relatidris, because he had been
uniforitily a minister, indeed possessing
office heieditarily, and a member of
all the governments throughout his time
--sav ottly the last. The 1oduse needed
iiot advice frirb such a quarter; even
though so respectable and soirreproachable.
That noble earl had always demteaned
hitndelf inoffensively to those who Were
iti public life his antagonists. Hie had
always found the noble lord the fairest
aid mriost candid of adversaries' but that
was ho reason for presenting to the House
the noble loid's uricalled-for advice, and
his assdiance that the present adiniiis-
tratiot, fdtItided upon the ruins of the
dld, was the best of all possible g6ovrn-
fheritg. Doubtlesi the noble earl eiant
t6 app ave of all thi members of that new
administration, thoujhi i, th some of them
he had essentially differed oil tiaihy ocda-
siotis. DotubtlesS he meant equally to
approve of all the omissiotis in its don-
situction, which had so astounded the
public ; highly approving no doubt, of the
absence from office 6f his old and learned
friend and colleague, the earl of Eldon,
whose name had accompanied his own
through life, with an attachment so in-
violable, that it resembled the connexion
between Castor and Pollux. So much,
indeed, had they been twin stars in the
hori 1a of this nether political world, that
Ote could hardly be named except in con-
junction with the other. Thereneverhad, he
believed, been a political measure in which
thiy were disjoined, or a movement,in which
they did not coijointly participate. Most
remarkable Was it, therefore, that the noble
earl could have recorded his unqualified
approval of the omission of the name of
hi~s ancient colleague in the roll of the
new government. Most surprising it was,
that such an opinion could be communi-
cated from the noble earl, respecting those
with whom he had so long happily acted,
ahd who were not, happily a part of the pre-
sent administration [a laugh]. In making
these observations, he should hot suffer
himself to be drawn into unnecessary
discussion, notwithstanding the example
which had been improvidently set; for he
entirely concurred ili the propriety of
aibtaininig from debating measures in the


Addresi ak the Kiiy's iSich. 6i
aiben e of the itibrmation which lWa td
throw a light upon them, arnd of tfi
persons Who were bound to vifidicate
them. While, however, hb Was ready to
abstain from premtiatlre disciiusion, he
must protect hinimdlf against being O6n-
cluded ftom Fprote.tiir whdit the ptoper
season arrived, against many of the doe-
trines, and many of the arguments, of the
hon. mIver and seconder of the Address.
He must not be considered as agreeing in
any one of those questionable propositions,
or in the equally questionable argunients
with which they had been supported; and
still more against being considered as
adopting the terms used in the Addr:s
from the Throne. He wished for the
presence of those by whom the kiig's
Speech had beei penned, before he im-
pugned it as one which, more than any
other he had ever heard, tended to coim-
mit the country ii a position of peculiar
embarrassment. Against One parjg raph of
that Address, he was most aiixious to record
at once his unqualified dissent; having at
the same time the fullest and firmest don-
viction, that that dissent wouldbd re-echoed
from one end of the kingdom 'td the othet.
He meant to allude to the manner in which
the late glorious, brilliant, decisive, and
immortal, achievement at Navarinio was
described, as being a matter to be laiiiBht-
ed. This was the first time he had ever
seen men anxious to corde forwifd aiid
refuse credit where it had been called for,
and set at nought the most splendid at-
chieverment of their arms. It had been
reserved for some of the ften of these
times, to triumph and to be afraid-to
conquer and to repine-to fight as heroes
did, the contest of freedom, and still to
tremble like slaves-to act gloriously, aid
repine bitterly-to win by biave men the
battle of liberty in the east, and in the West
to pluck from the valiant brow the laurels
which it had so nobly earned, and plant
the cypress in their stead, because the
conqueror had fought for religion and
liberty. He hailed as a bad omen the
designation of a great naval achievement
as an untoward event." He complained
of this passage, on the part of certain
honourable gentlemen, who formed a por-
tion of the late, as they did of the present
administration, but who were not present
to state their sentiments with reference to
this point. The government came down
and said, O you must not discuss such
and such subjects, because Mr. Grant and








Mr. Huskisson are absent." On that ac- the step which had been taken. 4e con-
count they were called on not to discuss curred entirely in his hon. and learned
certain measures. He certainly did not friend's view of the question, when he de-
wish to discuss them in their absence; but, precated war: but he could not, while
was it right for those who drew up the touching on this point, avoid stating, that
Speech to put into the mouth of their he observed with regret, an approxi-
sovereign an attack on Mr. Grant and Mr. mation to a military system in this country;
Huskisson, which they could not answer the government being represented, in the
at the;present moment? Perhaps itwould other house, by field-marshal the duke of
be said, that no attack on them was in- Wellington, and in that house by the noble
tended. If not, against whom was the at- Secretary at War. He really thought,
tack-for such it appeared to him to be- that too much had been said about their
intended ? Was it meant for that intrepid ancient and faithful, religious ally, the
officer who led the British fleet to victory ? religious and liberal emperor of the Turks;
Was it meantfor those gallant menwho had especially as the head of the Protestant
fought and bled in the cause of liberty and interest-one, he was going to say, almost
humanity ? The censure was directed either on the throne of this country-had ex-
against Mr. Grant and Mr. Huskisson, or pressed himself perfectly satisfied with
against the gallant officer who was employ- what had been done. He trusted that a
ed on this important occasion. In this system of perverted feeling with respect to
dilemma, my lord field marshal duke of political measures would not recur. The
Wellington and prime minister, you are brilliant success which had attended the
placed. From this dilemma it is impossible introduction of a liberal system into our
you can extricate yourself. Out of foreign policy, under the administration of
this dilemma, not your finest manoeuvres, a right hon. gentleman of transcendent
not your most accomplished movements, merit, would, he hoped, sufficiently show
be they ever so bold, ever so nimble, ever the necessity of proceeding in the same
so well-constructed, will be sufficient to course. He trusted that the talents and
extricate you. Either you blame Mr. the exertions of that eminent man-who
Huskisson and Mr. Grant-not only blame had fallen a sacrifice to the vile abuse
them, but get the brother of Mr. Grant to which had been heaped upon him-would
stand up in this house to censure them, on not be lost to the country. The success
account of this measure-or there is no which had attended the right hon. gentle-
blame whatever imputed by you. In that man's efforts, induced him to hope, that
case, the blame is all meant on the other the liberal system which the right hon.
side: it is directed againstthosewho fought gentleman had introduced would be for
this glorious battle-against those who ever pursued by this country. He trusted
led our gallant seamen to victory. They that they should no longer have to dread,
must be the objects of blame, if Mr. as they had formerly dreaded, lest their
Huskisson and Mr. Grant are not." He, names should be coupled with liberal prin-
however, could not conceive, how censure ciples. He trusted that they should not,
could be cast upon the chief in that en- in future, be ashamed of all that was best
gagement, after he had been thanked by in their own institutions, while they sup-
his sovereign-after he had been distin- ported all that was worst, most approved,
guished by the praises of his superior in and most legitimate, in other monarchies.
the navy-after he had been covered with He trusted that England would long con-
honours, which were only less estimable tinue to be, what she had for the last
than the fame and glory which he had three or four years been, since Mr. Canning
achieved in the service of his country. came into office, the refuge and solace of
Wholly concurring in the sentiment, that persecuted freemen, and not the refuge and
it would be greatly for the benefit of Greece solace of the tyrants by whom they were
if peace were restored, and believing that persecuted. Hehopedthat,whereveranyty-
this victory would mainly contribute to the ranny was exercised-wherever any system
attainment of that object, he greatly re- of misgovernment was apparent-wherever
joiced in tie event. Deploring, as he any plan of cruelty or of fraud was contem-
should do, the commencement of war; plated and enforced against the libertiesof
particularly deploring such a circumstance the people-those who suffered by such
in the present state of the finances of this iniquitous proceedings would never cease
country, still he could not find fault with to look to England for succour and support.


JAN. 2q, 1818- 64


Ad dreis on the Kiny's Sp~ee&






55 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
The manner in which our ancient ally"
was spoken of, while in the same passage
the splendid victory of Navarino was
described as an "untoward event," led him
to entertain some fears as to the policy
which would hereafter be pursued; but he
sincerely hoped that those fears would
prove groundless.-He had carefully ab-
stained from making any remark on the
government generally, or on any of its
individual members; but he would, for
himself, declare, that let the government
be composed of whom it might-let the
causes (which he pretended not to know)
of the changes that had recently taken
place be what they might- still, so long as
he found certain men forming part and
parcel of the administration-- -so long as he
thought he could rely on their determina-
tion to pursue a wise, salutary, and liberal
line of foreign and domestic policy (which
the Speech from the Throne gave him, for
the first time, reason to doubt), so long
should they have his support. He looked
not to the members of the administration,
but to their measures; and if those mea-
sures were good, the administration should
have-not a reluctant or tardy-but as
hearty, as sincere, and as active, a support,
as if he were sitting on the other side of
the House. He was intimately connected
with those from whom those liberal mea-
sures, so beneficial to the country, had
flowed; and he believed that they felt, on
this point, exactly as he did.-He could
not sit down without saying a few words
on a particular circumstance, connected
with the present administration, to which,
he confessed, he felt a very great degree
of objection. He alluded to the com-
mander-in-chief of the army having been
placed, by his sovereign, at the head of the
government. No man valued more highly
than he did the illustrious services of the
noble duke, as a soldier. No man gloried
more in the numerous victories which the
noble duke had achieved than he did.
Indeed, when many persons were under-
valuing those victories, and describing
them as untoward events," he raised his
voice in that House, and endeavoured to
show their importance. He was one of
the first to endeavour, by all the means in
his power, to promote the successful career
of the noble duke, by placing greater and
more extensive resources at his disposal.
But, though he entertained the highest
opinion of the noble duke's military genius,
still he did not like to see him at the head


Address on the King's Speech. 56
of the finance of the country, enjoying all
the patronage of the Crown,-enjoying, as
he did enjoy, the full and perfect confi-
dence of his sovereign, enjoying the
patronage of the army, enjoying the
patronage of the church,-and, in fact,
enjoying almost all the patronage of the
state. To the noble duke also was in-
trusted the delicate function of conveying
constant and confidential advice to the
ear of his royal master. As a constitutional
man, this state of things struck him as
being most unconstitutional. He was,
indeed, told, that the noble duke was a
person of very great vigour in council, and
that his talents were not confined to the
art of war. It might be so; but that did
not remove his objections against the noble
duke's being placed in possession of such
an immense mass of civil and military in-
fluence. It was said, that the noble duke
was incapable of speaking, in public, as a
first minister of the Crown ought to do.
Now, he conceived that there was no
validity in that objection. He happened
to be present when the noble duke, last
year, had the modesty and candour to de-
clare, in another place, that he was unfit
for the situation of first minister, and he
really thought he had never heard a better
speech in the whole course of his life [a
laugh]. Nothing could be more suited
to the occasion. He never saw less want
of capacity in an individual who might be
called on to take an active part in debate.
This, therefore, was not his reason for ob-
jecting to the appointment. That objec-
tion rested on the constitutional grounds
which he had already stated, and, more-
over, because the noble duke's experience
had been purely military, not civil. It
was scarcely necessary to remind the
House of the noble duke's near connexion
with the very worst, the most despotic,
and the most purely military system, into
which this country had ever been seduced.
That, however, formed in his mind, ano-
ther, and a very strong objection to the
noble duke's being placed at the head of
the administration. It was not any com-
pensation to him, or to the country, to
hear (what he had heard, not in that place,
but out of doors), Oh! the duke of
Wellington is a person who will take care
to have his own way; patronage will now
go in its right channel; influence will no
longer have any effect in the distribution
of patronage, as many persons will find."
This was no compensation to him for so





JAN. 29, 1828. 58


objectionable an appointment. What was
rumoured out of doors, as to the future
disposal of patronage, might be true-per-
haps it was true; but the House would
not consider that to be a compensation,
the country would not consider it to be a
compensation, for this appointment. He
could not see why individuals of rank
should not recommend persons to high
offices in the army, the navy, or the
church. It was the duty of the minister
to judge of their fitness, and on him lay
the responsibility of the appointment; but,
that any one individual, of exalted rank,
of great connexions, of extensive and
commanding influence, should alone have
the power of nominating to situations in
the army, the navy, and the church, was
what he did not understand. Why the
court, as it was called-the nobility and
gentry-should be excluded from recom-
mending to situations, he could not con-
ceive. Why the nobility in general, or
why wealthy commoners, possessing per-
haps two or three boroughs, should be
bound hand and foot, and prevented from
recommending to situations, he could not
discover. This was not his reading of the
constitution. He was not aware, on con-
stitutional grounds, why their recom-
mendations should not be received. The
patronage was in the minister, and he was
responsible for the manner in which he
disposed of it; and, be the person who
came forward with a recommendation a
peer or a boroughholder, he cared not:
if an improper nomination was made, he
had a responsible minister to answer for it.
There was, therefore, in this new arrange-
ment, no security or compensation to the
House or to the country for this union of
power; and, therefore, in his view of the
matter, it was utterly unconstitutional.-
Let it not be supposed, however, that he
was inclined to exaggerate. He had no fear
of slavery being introduced into this coun-
try, by the power of the sword. It would
take a stronger, it would demand a more
powerful, man, even than the duke of Wel-
lington, to effect such an object. The noble
duke might take the army, he might take
the navy, he might take the mitre, he
might take the great seal-he would make
the noble duke a present of them all. Let
him come on with his whole force, sword
in hand, against the constitution, and the
energies of the people of this country
would not only beat him, but laugh at his
efforts. Therefore he was perfectly satis-


fled, that there would be no unconstitu-
tional attack on the liberties of the people.
These were not the times for such an
attempt. There had been periods when
the country heard with dismay that the
soldier was abroad." That was not the
case now. Let the soldier be ever so much
abroad, in the present age he could do
nothing. There was another person
abroad,-a less important person,-in the
eyes of some an insignificant person,-
whose labours had tended to produce this
state of things. The schoolmaster was
abroad [cheers] and he trusted more to
the schoolmaster, armed with his primer,
than he did to the soldier in full military
array, for upholding and extending the
liberties of his country. He thought the
appointment of the duke of Wellington
was bad, in a constitutional point of view;
but as to any violence being, in conse-
quence, directed against the liberties of
the country, the fear of such an event he
looked upon as futile and groundless.-He
felt it incumbent upon him to say, that in
giving his consent to the Address, he did
so with a reservation as to the manner in
which the battle of Navarino was spoken
of. He protested against that portion of
it on the part of the late government; he
protested against it on the part of Mr.
Huskisson and Mr. Grant, who were not
now present; and he protested against it
on the part of the country, by whom he
thought the terms in which that great
victory were noticed would be received
with astonishment and disgust [hear].
Sir Joseph Yorke said, he hoped that
the noble Secretary at War would not
suffer the House to separate without giving
the House some explanation with respect
to the change of ministry, and the course
which the new administration meant to
pursue. He had hoped that the principles
advocated by the great man now no more
would have continued to be the principles
of the government. He should like to
know how these changes had been brought
about, how the union of Whig and Tory
had been put an end to by the appoint-
ment of the duke of Wellington, which
had filled the country with astonishment.
Was it in Great Britain that such diffi-
culty could be found in forming a minis-
try ? Could not individuals be found of
sufficient talents and integrity to govern
the country ? Could not individuals be
discovered who would agree with each
other in carrying on the business of the


Address on ihe King's Sp~eech.





59 HOUSE QF QQgJMONS,
copptry with a sole view only to its wel-
fare ? Wpre they become so degenerate,
that ministers could not be found to con-
duct the public affairs, unless it was stipu-
latep, that they should be placed in a
situation to command one job or aiothlr?
He cpuld not agree with the hon. seconder
in what he had said relative to the dispute
at Navarino. The Greeks were by no
means exempt from faults. For his part,
he was inclined to consider the Turks as
yery honest fellows; although they had a
way of governing people by taking off
their heads. He thanked the learned
gentleman opposite for his able speech.
He had opened the thunder of his artillery
with great effect, upon the Treasury-bench.
fildeed, he had almost made him tremble
on his seat. In his opinion, the noble
Secretary at War could not get out of the
business any more than the duke of Wel-
lington, unless he stated what had given
rise to the extraordinary change that had
been effected in the goi' rutri'_nt of the
country.
Mr. Bankes said, he felt it impossible
not to notice some of the topics that were
mentioned in the Speech from the Throne.
It appeared tp him that there was an al-
most unqpalified regret, throughout the
country, at the disastrous affair of Nava-
rino-ap affair which had created dismay
and astonishment. Those who had agreed
to the treaty were placed in a dilemma
from which they could not extricate them-
selves; seeing that tie necessary conse-
quence of that treaty, which he considered
to be impolitic and unjust, was the de-
plorable event to which he had alluded.
There would, he knew, arrive other oppor-
tunities for arguing this point; but as it
formed so prominent a part of his majesty's
Speech, and ts that Speech seemed, in
some manner, to countenance that trans-
action, he could not suffer the topic to be
passed by in silence. The hon. and learned
gentleman, had spoken of the foreign policy
which this government ought to adopt.
Was it, then, British policy to interfere
in the internal affairs of other states. Was
it not contrary to the law of nations to do
so ? And had they not, by the treaty into
which they had entered, violated that law ?
The hon. and learned gentleman main-
tained that this was a contest for religion
and liberty. It was no such thing. The
treaty was founded on a false pretence;
and they were next told that the intention
was to put down piracy. But, was it ne-


A4dreqsq g tSe Kg'g Ki 'pech. ec
cessary for England, the greatest naval
country under the sun, to call to her s-
sistance two other powers, to check and
put down a system of piracy? Was it
necessary that a fleet of sixteeit sail of the
line shptld be employed in stch a busi-
ness ? It was ridiculous to make such ag
assertion. Could any pne imagine it ne-
cessary to equip such a force for the pur-
pose of putting down the piratipal attempts
of either or both of the hostile powers ?
No such thing. It was apparent, on the
face of the matter, that the force was en-
tirely directed against the power which
was in amity with this country, and that,
too, without any sufficing cause. In his
view of the cgse, the entire subject, the
treaty and every thing connected with it,
should be referred to a secret committee :
for it would not, perhaps, be proper that
such an inquiry should be public. He
should be glad to know in what situation
this country stood at present; and whe-
ther we were at war or peace with Turkey.
As to the gallant officer who had behaved
so honourably at Navarinq, he had nothing
to say against him. He had only to lament,
that that meritorious individual had been
engaged in an attack on an ancient ally.
It would, however, be right that the House
should know, hereafter, what instructions
were given to him on that disastrous occa-
sion. As there must be various discussions
on this business, he should not detain the
House longer; but he deemed it neces-
sary, thus early, to throw out these hints,
because he thought that there ought to be
an expression of the opinion of the House
on this part of the Speech. As to Por-
tugal, lie was glad to learn that the troops
sent there were on the eve of returning.
That measure, also, was not in the spirit
of British policy, inasmuch as it interfered
with the government of foreign nations,
an interference not justified by circum-
stances, nor demanded by our own inter-
est or safety. He deprecated, in the
strongest terms, every thing connected
with the treaty, If it should he attended
with a happy result, he should ascribe it
to good fortune rather than to wise coun-
sels.
Lord Althorp said, he agreed with his
hon. and learned friend, as far as he was
informed of the circumstances, that the
battle of Navarino was a necessary conse-
quence of the treaty of London. He
agreed, also, most fully, in the protest of
his hon. and learned friend against those





J4y. ?,q, 188. 6-


expressions in the Speech from the Throne,
which seemed to cast a censure upon the
gallant admiral who commanded at Nava-
rino. It would be hard, indeed, upon
naval officers, if they were to be employed
in highly delicate and important duties,
and were liable afterwards to have blame
insinuated against them, without the clear-
est proof that cause for such blame ex-
isted. With respect to the treaty of Lon-
don, undoubtedly he felt considerable
doubts both as to its policy and justice.
But, nevertheless, he could not bring him-
self to give so decided an opinion as his
hon. friend who spoke last had done. He
would hear the explanations of those who
were responsible for the treaty, and not,
in their absence, prejudge the question;
and therefore he wished that the subject,
for the present, had been avoided. As to
the affairs of Portugal, he felt the same
satisfaction which the hon. member ex-
pressed; but his satisfaction arose from a
very different cause. He was glad to hear
that the British troops were about to leave
that country; but he was so, because they
had been entirely successful in the object
for which they were sent out. England
was bound by treaty to prevent the inter-
ference of foreign powers with Portugal.
A demonstration of interference on the
part of Spain induced Portugal to ask for
our assistance; and it was as impossible
in faith and honour, as it was in sound
policy, to refuse it. In giving that assis-
tance, we had given it without any desire
to support one party in the country more
than another. Portugal no longer re-
quired it; and the troops were, therefore,
withdrawn; the object of their occupation
being accomplished. He abstained, for
the present, from entering into the ques-
tion of the composition of the present ad-
ministration. In that administration lhe
had no confidence; but he felt bound not
to state the reasons for that want of con-
fidence until those members of the go-
vernment to whose conduct he objected
were present in that House, and had an
opportunity of explaining the course they
had pursued. He concluded, therefore,
by renewing, in conjunction with his hon.
and learned friend, his protest against that
part of the Speech which alluded to the
battle of Navarino.
Lord Palmerston agreed, that it would
be inexpedient to enter at present into
many subjects which had been referred to
in the course of the evening; but there


were one or two points which had fallen
from hon. gentlemen on the other side,
which his sense of duty to the House
would not allqw hir to pass unnoticed.
Therefore he would not accept the invita-
tion of the gallant member, to go at once
into a relation of the circumstances which
had led to the recent change in his majesty's
councils. Because, even if he were to
succeed in satisfying the gallant member
upon the subject, he should incur, and
deservedly incur, the censure of the House.
But, postponing that questipn as the noble
lord opposite was disposed to do, until the
parties concerned were present, he would
merely call the attention of the House to
a few accusations, proceeding from other
quarters,which he considered to be ground-
less and unfounded. The hon. and learned
member, seemed to think the Address
objectionable, because it contained certain
expressions, amounting to disapprobation,
of a late important occurrence. Now, he
could not but think that it would have been
a great fault on the part of administration,
if they had omitted to touch, in the royal
Speech, upon a topic of so much public
interest: and he was ready to admit, that
it would have been improper in the mover
or seconder, to have called upon the House
to sanction any address, which would have
committed the House upon a question of
great national importance. But surely a
very little of that critical examination
which no man was more capable than the
hon. and learned gentleman of employing,
would convince him, that there was nothing
in the present address which committed
the House to any particular line of policy.
The address only thanked his majesty for
the communication he had been pleased to
make, and did not commit the parties who
supported it upon any point whatever. The
hon. and learned gentleman had a peculiar
pleasantry and humour in his attacks,
which made them amusing, even to those
at whom they were most especially pointed ;
but he certainly had not displayed good
taste in the manner in which he had been
pleased to advert to the military character
of the duke of Wellington. The claims
which that noble and gallant duke had
established to the gratitude of this coun-
try, stood upon a basis too firm to be
shaken by any taunts or sneers that might
be thrown out against them. He was per-
suaded that the noble duke felt perfectly
indifferent to the remarks of the hon. and
learned gentleman, and that he might


444rgss on. the King's 4Ilqqch.





63 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
safely leave their answer to the good taste
and intelligence of the House. There was
one topic however upon which he was glad
to be able to relieve the alarms of the hon.
and learned gentleman. The military
office formerly held by the noble duke
would not be united to the political. The
noble duke had tendered to the king his
resignation of the office of commander-in-
chief, on the same day that he had accepted
that of first lord of the treasury; and
although no successor to the post had as
yet been appointed, the House might con-
sider the resignation as virtually made:
from the present time, the duke of Wel-
lington would cease to be commander-in-
chief. Therefore it was to be hoped that
the fears of the hon. and learned gentle-
man, and his apprehensions of the danger-
ous consequences of the military, civil, and
church patronage, being united in one
individual, would cease also. Whatever
danger there might be in such an event,
the House might be assured it was not
about to occur.-Another objection taken
by the hon. and learned gentleman to the
present prime minister was, that the noble
duke's habits and experience had been
military, and not civil. But the hon. and
learned gentleman himself had admitted,
that, in the speech in which the noble
duke, with an honourable mbdesty, had
disclaimed the possession of talents which
qualified him for the first situation in the
country-the very terms and manner in
.which that disclaimer was made, showed
that the modesty of the speaker far under-
rated his own capacities. And surely the
personal knowledge of the hon. and
learned gentleman must sufficiently in-
struct him, that the whole of the duke of
Wellington's experience had not been
confined to the army. The House at least
would know, that there had been scarcely
an important transaction in Europe for the
last thirteen years in which the noble duke,
at home or abroad, had not directly borne
a part. The hon. and learned member
could not surely recollect what had
actually been the case, when he spoke of
the experience of the duke of Wellington
as having been entirely military. The hon.
and learned gentleman, had been pleased
to state, that he, for once, should prove a
better tactician than the noble duke; and
that he had got him into a dilemma, out
of which it would not be easy for him to
escape. Now, he denied the existence of
any dilemma; there was no dilemma at all.


Address on the King's Speech. 64
The hon. and learned member said, that
the Speech pronounced a condemnation
upon the battle of Navarino. He asserted
That it did not do so; that it censured, or
condemned nothing. It contained no
censure upon the treaty which had pro-
duced the battle, nor any blame of the
gallant admiral who had commanded in
it. The Speech said, that the conflict was
unexpected; and, certainly, there could
be no doubt that it had been so. Because,
although some collision might have been
expected, yet the affair of Navarino took
place in a way which could not be expected.
It had arisen out of a combination of cir-
cumstances which could not be foreseen;
and therefore it must have been a collision
entirely unexpected by the government.
He thought it impossible that his majesty
could be advised to allude to a battle
taking place under such circumstances,
without an expression of regret,-a battle,
speaking without the smallest condemna-
tion of it, which had taken place between
his fleets, and the fleets of a country with
which we were not only not at war, but
with which we were absolutely on terms of
alliance. The expressions used, did not
mean any reflection upon the conduct of
the gallant admiral commanding, and could
not fairly be so construed. The honours
sent out to the gallant admiral were a
sufficient proof of this. Those testimonies
proved that his skill and gallantry were
duly appreciated. The gallant officer still
continued in his situation of high and
important trust. Would this be the case,
if the government considered that any
censure ought to be passed upon him ? No
censure was meant, nor was any expressed;
and therefore the dilemma in which the
hon. and learned member proposed to
involve the government, was without exist-
ence. But the hon. and learned member's
apprehensions were not confined to the
treatment of the victors in the late engage-
ment, or to the combination of power in
the person of the duke of Wellington. He
was alarmed for the general welfare of the
state, and trusted that the new ministry
were not returning to that system of
foreign and domestic policy, which had
proved so adverse to the best interests of
the country. Nothing would be more
improper than to declare beforehand what
were the intentions of any administration;
but when the House found the noble earl
at the head of Foreign Affairs who had
held that situation in the ministry of Mr.





Address on the King's Speech.


Canning, the right hon. member for Liver- not bear an entirely opposite construction ?
poolcontinuingtobeministerforthecolonial He entirely agreed with the noble lord,
department, and the same President of the that what he said could not matter to the
Board of Trade charged with the direction duke of Wellington. All Europe was
of our commercial system, surely there was aware of the noble duke's talents and
no reason to anticipate that those persons deserts; but it would matter considerably
would depart from the principles upon to him, if he should he supposed so foolish
which they had hitherto acted, and which I as to have uttered any sentiments but
had met, almost universally, with approba- those of respect and gratitude to tje duke
tion and support. All he would say was for his military services. He had himself
-judge of the new government by its in that House, over and over again, when
measures, not by the notions that any those with whom he was connected by
individuals may form of what those mea- party had been disposed to hang back,
sures were to be. The hon. member for absolutely urged the government to place
Corfe Castle had asked, whether we were larger means at the disposal of the noble
at war or at peace with Turkey ? Certainly, duke. What he had said on the present
not at war. Our ambassador had quitted evening was in order to draw the line be-
Constantinople; but no change had taken tween the position of a finance minister
place in our policy. Therefore, we were and a commander-in-chief. If saying that
still at peace. With respect to Greece, he the duke was not the best qualified to be
would merely say, that the treaty and a finance minister was attacking his
protocol would be laid before the House, military reputation, those who took it to be
but it was not intended at present to found so gave a meaning to words which, in the
any motion upon them. The negotiations ordinary usage of society, they did not
connected with the treaty were not yet bear.
ended. There was no reason to believe Lord John Russell said, he would take
that they would be ended, otherwise than that opportunity of entering his protest
to the advantage of the country; but it against the kind of declamation in which
was possible that present discussion might the noble Secretary at War had indulged
operate prejudicially. If, under these cir- when speaking of the duke of Wellington.
cumstances, it should be thought advisable He remembered very well when that noble
to bring forward any motion, ministers duke last year proposed a clause in the
would be prepared to meet it; though they Corn-bill, which was considered highly in-
would not, at present, originate any them- jurious to the commercial interests of the
selves. The hon. member for Corfe Castle, country, it was said, "how can gentle-
had formerly stated, and now repeated, men possibly make an objection to this
that the expedition to Portugal had been clause, when they consider that this very
sent out in order to interfere with the day is the 18th of June, the anniversary
internal arrangements of that country. He of the battle of Waterloo ?" Now, he felt
denied this. The expedition had been great thanks were due to the duke for hav-
sent out to fulfil the treaty we had entered ing gained that battle, but, nevertheless, the
into to defend Portugal from external clause in the Corn-bill was a very injurious
attack. He did not mean to say that he one to the country; and he protested
was not gratified by the course which against the practice hereafter, that, when-
affairs had taken in Portugal. It was ever the duke should propose any very ob-
satisfactory to see-that country with some- jectionable measure, or make any financial
thing like a liberal form of government,- blunder, as a prime minister, that the
satisfactory, because he believed that our House should be met with a reference to
relations with every state were made more his military services. The duke of Welling-
firm and safe by the admission of the ton having placed himself in a civil ca-
people generally to some share in the pacity, must submit to be judged of in
government, or at least by giving the that capacity. It was hardly necessary for
public voice the power of expression. him to say, that in all that the duke of
Mr. Brougham said, in explanation, that Wellington might hereafter do, his past
the noble lord had endeavoured to make it services, if not openly referred to, would
appear that he had spoken lightly of the not be the less remembered. But he could
military reputation of the duke of Welling- not help thinking, that those very habits
ton. Now, he asked every member, of command which had been most befitting
whether the words which he had used, did the noble duke in his military station, and
VOL. XVIII. D


JAh. 29, 1828.







to which much of his success probably had Mr. Calcraft said, that he also waA
been owing, were likely to prove most desirous, like his noble friend, Of sceliha
objectionable and dangerous iii the situa- what measures the administration intended
tion of first minister of a free country. to propose before he ventured to pronounce
Neither was he entirely satisfied by the a condemnation. He wOtild go furthdf,
statement which the noble lord opposite and say, that from the inttoduction ititd it
had made on the subject of the command of many of his friends, wihbn he supported
of the army. He must know how that in the late administtatiotl;he had d i oU -
situation was intended to be filled, before able itipression of the todttsd which they
he should be convinced, that some part of intended to pursue; and he trusted he
the patronage of it would not still remain should be able to give theth his support.
at the disposal of the duke of Wellington He concurred in what had fallen frotti the
it his new capacity. He admitted that it noble lord who preceded hiti in what he
wab but fair to wait for the measures of had said respecting the gallant tlidiral
the new ministry before the House decided who had fought the bdttlb Of Naartin.
upon its character. He certainly saw But, the object of the treaty Was the
symptoms of danger in the formation of the maintenance of peace, and a good un-
government; but he would not make up his derstanding with Turkey ; this action,
mind definitively until he saw it act. There therefore, must certainly be acknowledged
was one point which hewouldjust mention, to be an untoward circumstiance it that
not less on account of its vital importance, point of view, and he confessed he thought
than because it had not beet noticed in it was very natural and proper that it
the Speech from the Throne. He meant should be spoken of in the speech frbnt
the condition of Ireland. No government the thtotie, as it had been. With regard
should have his support, which did not to the office of commander-in-chief, he was
adopt measures to. improve the situation h,.,p.py to hear that it had beet resigned
of that country. With regard to the affair by the noble duke who fnow occupied the
of Navarino, he regretted the phrase riade first office in the state. With respect to
tse of in the Speech. He was bduntd to Porttgali he perfectly agreed in what had
take the meaning of the words from the fallen from the noble lord who spoke last.
noble lord opposite; but certainly, if they Our troops were returning home, after
were not intended to intimate, that the having performed the service which they
gallant admiral who fought that battle had were sent on, to the advantage of Portugal
fought it without instructions and un- and the honour of England. This county
advisedly, they were the most unlucky had no other course to take than that she
words, for their real purpose, that could I had taken : the alternative of honour or
possibly have been chosen; For himself, disgrace was open to her; she had taken
he believed the battle to have been a the path of honour, and every one must
glorious victory, and a necessary con- rejoice at the result.
sequence of the treaty of London; and Lord Norfinnby said, he had entered
moreover, as honest a victory as had eter the House without the slightest intention
been "gained since the beginning df the of sing a word on the present occasion,
world. With respect to the affairs of and would certainly have adhered to his
Portugal, he congratulated the House resolution but for what had fallen from the
upon the termination of that affair, and of hon. gentleman who had just sat down;
the probable restoration to peace and For his part, he could only say, that he had
security of our ancient ally. This last ex- no confidence in the present government :
ptession put him in mind of a rather he had no confidence in the composition of
ludicrous mistake which was commonly the ministry, and could not give them his
made, in discussing the affairs of Turkey. support. He could not address the House,
Turkey was constantly spoken of as our for the first time since the death of the late
" ancient ally." Now, the fact was, that lamented premier, without expressing his
there had never been any alliance between deep regret at the loss which the country
Turkeyland this country priot to the year had experienced. A remnant of that fight
1799; and it was not twenty years since hon. gentleman's friends were left, and he
Mr. Arbuthnot had been compelled to should have expected much from them,
fly privately from Constantinople, from the were it not for the connections which they
fear that his safety would be eidarigeted, had lately formed.
by a vioietip of the rights of ambinssadors. The Address Wra then agreed to.


1#7 HOUSE OF COM-MONS,


A 4dieft on W KiA#'f 46~ech-





;g HOUSE OF COMMONS,
glopted by the late administration, would
i persevered in; and that he desired,
alsp, to confirm what his noble friend had
asserted. With regard to the affair at
Navayino, he concurred in all that had
been said ip praise of Pbe course pursued
by sir Edward Codri-gton.
The Address was agreed to iewm. diss.
The usual sessional orders were voted,
aud tpe earl of Shaftes Fry was appointed
chairman of committees.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, January 29.
STATE o T'E LAw NDp ITS ADMINIq-
W4#TIPN.] ]Mr. Prougham gave notice
that, on the 7th of February, he would
submit to the House a motion, touhing
the state of the Law of this Country, and
ts A administration in thp Courts of Justice,
with p view to such Reformq ip the sap~e
ag time may have rendered necessary, and
experience pay have shewn to be ex-
pedient.
COURT or CHANCERY.] ir. X. 4.
Taylor gave notice, that on t4e 12th of
February he would move fpr c,(italn
returns connected with the Court pf
Chancery, preparatory to a gpper4l iolti;pn
relative to the Delays and Abuses in that
Court.
ADDRLSS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.]
The Speaker acquainted thp hJpuse, that
the Hpuse had been in thp House of Lords,
tp hear the Speeph of the cprds Com-
mnissciojtr, of which, tq prevept tmiptes,
ae had obtained a copy. After he had
read it to the Huse,
The Ion. Cecil Jenkinson said: --In
rising, Sir, on the present pcc sion, po
rpve, that an humble Addresr be pre-i
sented to his Majesty, I mpst observe, in
the outset, that no degree of confidence in
my own powers has placed me in this
situation : on the contrary, there is no
man more difdent of himself, and with
reason, than I am. I am not, indeed, a
young member, but I have troubled the
H.ouqe very seldom upon any subject of
discussion that has come before it. Hav-
ing mentioned this circumstance, I may
add, that, as long as a person-to whom I
can hardly allude without an emotion
which deprives me of the little power I
have of expit- sig myself-as long as that
person, I mean my noble brother, was not


only at the head of the cpFRnip gf his
Souer- lioi. Put in a sitq4tion of most
exalted estimation with the whplf cp lry,
it was needless for me to trouble the
House with rpy owp priyvtp ppmiois; f r
on all public matters 4hey were inlariably
in accordance wjih thqsp lyjh he as
so well able to deplare. He possessed a
faculty t which I have no prdk.Lsion s:
he had eloquence tp describe evey feeling
and impulse in his cp'preliegnivp mind-
a mind so comprehensjye, thaI it empbrsled
every thing calculated tp I1jcr ase the
greatness or promote the w-elftri of his
country. I qply touch lighlJy upon this
subject, because I c4nnpt but feel the
strongest emotions whenever my mind is
turned to the present situation of my poor
brother [hear!]. Knpwing, as I do, how-
ever, that since his unfortunate malady, as
often as his attention has been directed
that way, he has felt and expressed the
greatest anxiety for the ppptinued glory
and (iprspeity of his country, I coqld not
refrain from stating thus much.-I would
al.o advert iuriorily to another event
eqpeply to be regretted, whipc has occurred
sipce the Ip!eln-lcholy ipc4pability of Iprd
iyerpool. I allude to the death pfaman
of the greatest eloquence-,a statesian.
to whom I have often listened with the
highest admiration; for whom I am con-
fident my brother, both frpm early cn-
uection and warm admiration f his talents,
had the strpngest regard; and with whom
he had formed an early and most intimate
friendship, founded upon mutual esteem.
I never shall forget the effect pro4 ced by
that right hpn. gentleman's commanding
eloquence; and, in my feeblp way, and in
the only mode in which I am capable of
stating it, I must express of it my profound
admiRtion. But he is no more-still 'Qore
completely so than my poor brother; and
Providence having disposed of these two
great men-I hope I may in justice be
allowed to call my brother great, as well
as the late Mr. Canning-eyery body
looked with anxiety to the establishment
of a new Administration, which should
embody all the sentiments, and receive all
that approbation, which I believe generally
characterized and followed my brother's
government, through a long series of years
[hear !]. Upon this part of the subject I
hope I have not trespassed too far. I hope
I have not pressed my ideas of the respect
entertained for lord Liyerppol beyond
what it will bear. I am aware that it is a








HOOSE OP LORDS. country, with sentiments of sorrow and
Thursday, January 31. regret. He did think that some explana-
Stion was due to the House on the matter.
BREACH OF PRIVILGE-ARREST OF A One had certainly been given, which,
PEER,] The Lord Chancellor stated, thathe though it prevented him from opposing the
had a complaint to make to their lordships Address, was scarcely adequate to the oc-
of a breach of their privileges, which had casion. Even after the explanation of the
been committed by the arrest, by a sheriff's noble lord, he was still of opinion-and he
officer, of lord Hawarden, an Irish peer. was confident that the House and the
He would therefore move, that lord country united with him in the sentiment
Hawarden be called in, that he might -that the expression, untoward event,"
state the circumstances to their lordships. was, to say the least of it, an ungracious
--Ordered. one, when applied to so glorious an
His lordship was accordingly called in achievement as the victory of Navarino.
and sworn. The Lord Chancellor asked the He was willing to fall in with the
noble lord what complaint he had to general disposition of the House to
prefer. Lord Hawarden stated, that, on preserve that unanimity which was so
the 15th of September last, he had been desirable, when voting an answer to his
arrested by a sheriff's officer, of the name majesty's Speech; but he at the same time
of Hemp. A person had called on him, wished it to be distinctly understood, that
about ten o'clock in the morning, and if that Speech could be interpreted as con-
had desired to speak to him. He was veying a particle of censure upon the con-
shewn into the drawing room. He said, duct of sir Edward Codrington, it was his
he had come on unpleasant business, decided opinion, that a very different Ad-
At this stage of the proceedings, the dress ought to be voted. That gallant
earl of Shaftesbtry stated, that it was officer had acted, under circumstances of
customary to conduct such inquiries with great difficulty and delicacy, with the plain,
closed doors; and, on his lordship's motion, straight-forward, unsophisticated under-
the bar was immediately ordered to be standing, of an English sailor, and had
cleared. displayed equal wisdom and firmness in
the management of the early part of the
ROMAN CATH'OLIC QUESTION.] Lord task committed to his hands, as he had
Clifden asked the noble duke at the head displayed irresistible valour in the cele-
of the government, whether it wasintended, brated battle which afterwards occurred.
during the session, to introduce a bill for He would assert, that a more glorious
the repeal of the existing penal laws affect- achievement never adorned the naval
ing the Roman Catholics ? annals of this country; that there was no
The Duke of Wellington answered, that deed of arms related in our history which
government had no intention of bringing could exceed the gallant affair of Navarino
forward any such measure. -a victory than which, of all naval vic-
tories, none could redound more to the
HOUSE OF COMMON S. credit of the brave officers and seamen by
whom it had been won.-He wished it to
Thursday, January 31. be clearly understood, that he was as
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECHI.] hostile as any member to an undue and un-
Mr. Jenkinson brought up the report of called-for interference with other countries.
the Address on the King's Speech. He was as ready as any member of the
Mr. Brownlow said, that, previous to administration which had existed a year
the report being read, he wished to ex- ago, or of the present administration,
press the feelings which influenced his which was a remnant of it, to admit that
conduct on the present occasion. He this country ought to preserve the straight-
should support the Address, subject to the forward rule of honour in its relations with
explanation which had been offered by the other nations. But, had not the adminis-
noble Secretary at War, regarding the tration to which he alluded counten-
objectionable portion of the King's Speech anced, on several occasions, and adopted
-an explanation, without which he would an active interference with foreign nations ?
not consent to the Address, and unaccom- Did it not interfere with Spain, with
panied by which the Speech from the Austria, with Genoa? Did it not permit
throne would be received, throughout the the spoliation of Norway and Saxony; and
D2


A ddrego m the fht#Y't Speech.


JAw. 31, 1828.








HOOSE OP LORDS. country, with sentiments of sorrow and
Thursday, January 31. regret. He did think that some explana-
Stion was due to the House on the matter.
BREACH OF PRIVILGE-ARREST OF A One had certainly been given, which,
PEER,] The Lord Chancellor stated, thathe though it prevented him from opposing the
had a complaint to make to their lordships Address, was scarcely adequate to the oc-
of a breach of their privileges, which had casion. Even after the explanation of the
been committed by the arrest, by a sheriff's noble lord, he was still of opinion-and he
officer, of lord Hawarden, an Irish peer. was confident that the House and the
He would therefore move, that lord country united with him in the sentiment
Hawarden be called in, that he might -that the expression, untoward event,"
state the circumstances to their lordships. was, to say the least of it, an ungracious
--Ordered. one, when applied to so glorious an
His lordship was accordingly called in achievement as the victory of Navarino.
and sworn. The Lord Chancellor asked the He was willing to fall in with the
noble lord what complaint he had to general disposition of the House to
prefer. Lord Hawarden stated, that, on preserve that unanimity which was so
the 15th of September last, he had been desirable, when voting an answer to his
arrested by a sheriff's officer, of the name majesty's Speech; but he at the same time
of Hemp. A person had called on him, wished it to be distinctly understood, that
about ten o'clock in the morning, and if that Speech could be interpreted as con-
had desired to speak to him. He was veying a particle of censure upon the con-
shewn into the drawing room. He said, duct of sir Edward Codrington, it was his
he had come on unpleasant business, decided opinion, that a very different Ad-
At this stage of the proceedings, the dress ought to be voted. That gallant
earl of Shaftesbtry stated, that it was officer had acted, under circumstances of
customary to conduct such inquiries with great difficulty and delicacy, with the plain,
closed doors; and, on his lordship's motion, straight-forward, unsophisticated under-
the bar was immediately ordered to be standing, of an English sailor, and had
cleared. displayed equal wisdom and firmness in
the management of the early part of the
ROMAN CATH'OLIC QUESTION.] Lord task committed to his hands, as he had
Clifden asked the noble duke at the head displayed irresistible valour in the cele-
of the government, whether it wasintended, brated battle which afterwards occurred.
during the session, to introduce a bill for He would assert, that a more glorious
the repeal of the existing penal laws affect- achievement never adorned the naval
ing the Roman Catholics ? annals of this country; that there was no
The Duke of Wellington answered, that deed of arms related in our history which
government had no intention of bringing could exceed the gallant affair of Navarino
forward any such measure. -a victory than which, of all naval vic-
tories, none could redound more to the
HOUSE OF COMMON S. credit of the brave officers and seamen by
whom it had been won.-He wished it to
Thursday, January 31. be clearly understood, that he was as
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECHI.] hostile as any member to an undue and un-
Mr. Jenkinson brought up the report of called-for interference with other countries.
the Address on the King's Speech. He was as ready as any member of the
Mr. Brownlow said, that, previous to administration which had existed a year
the report being read, he wished to ex- ago, or of the present administration,
press the feelings which influenced his which was a remnant of it, to admit that
conduct on the present occasion. He this country ought to preserve the straight-
should support the Address, subject to the forward rule of honour in its relations with
explanation which had been offered by the other nations. But, had not the adminis-
noble Secretary at War, regarding the tration to which he alluded counten-
objectionable portion of the King's Speech anced, on several occasions, and adopted
-an explanation, without which he would an active interference with foreign nations ?
not consent to the Address, and unaccom- Did it not interfere with Spain, with
panied by which the Speech from the Austria, with Genoa? Did it not permit
throne would be received, throughout the the spoliation of Norway and Saxony; and
D2


A ddrego m the fht#Y't Speech.


JAw. 31, 1828.






71 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
was it now, for the first time, that the
members of that administration had dis-
covered, that there should be no inter-
ference on behalf of the independence .of
Greece? He was as much opposed as any
man to an unnecessary interference; but
it was one thing to run headlong into an
unnecessary and unwarrantable interference
between other countries, and it was another
and a very different thing, to stand by and
behold, with unfeeling and stupid indif-
ference, the wanton and barbarous effu-
si6n of human blood. Interference was in
such an instance loudly called for, not
only for the interests of humanity, but for
the protection of the rights of neutral na-
tions. It was plain and obvious, that
any person who admitted the necessity
of the treaty of the 6th of July, be-
tween the three great powers, could not
condemn the battle of Navarino. He
could, indeed, understand the man who
would object in the first instance, to that
treaty, and allege that we had enough to
do without meddling in the affairs of other
countries. To such a man the affair at
Navarino would furnish only an additional
argument in support of his reasoning.
Why were the combined fleets of England,
France, and Russia, assembled in the Me-
diterranean? After that, were the Greeks
and Turks to be allowed to go on? Were
the piratical attacks upon the commerce
of neutral nations to go on unchecked?
Was the assembling of those fleets to be a
mere braggadocio-an idle menace, in-
tended for no practical purpose ? Had
Russia, France, and England, of whose
honour he would be more chary, entered
into a treaty which they never intended to
execute ? Or was it only to be followed
by a display of diplomatical chicanery;
and were all further proceedings to be ab-
stained from with fear and trembling,
There was, in truth, a great deal of false
feeling and false sentiment abroad on this
subject. An outcry was raised, by the
Jonathan Doubikins of this country, be-
cause Turkish blood had been spilled, and
Turkish vessels sunk and burnt. There
were persons who started with horror at
the slightest attack upon our most faith-
ful" ally, the grand turk. Did they, how-
ever, bear in mind the savage butcheries
committed at Scio ? Were they forgetful
of the dreadful effusions of human blood
which had taken place, for the last six
years, in the fairest portion of Europe?
Was, it not plain that the object of the


- Address on the King's Speech. 72
horrible warfare carried on there was
the extinction of the Greek race in that
devoted land? It would be said, that
they could know nothing of the treaty,
until it was laid before them. It certainly
was not on their table; but he, for one,
was sufficiently acquainted with it to ex-
press his entire approval of it. It was
warranted by the circumstances of the
case-it was conceived in a good spirit-
it emanated as a love of independence-
it contained nothing contrary to the law
of nations-it was the offspring of plain,
straight-forward, statesman-like British
policy. He did not stand up there to
vindicate that which required no vindica-
tion-the glorious battle of Navarino. No
one had insinuated censure against the il-
lustrious commander in that celebrated
engagement; his character, therefore, did
not stand in need of his feeble eulogy.-
Having said so much upon this portion of
the King's Speech, he would now advert,
with feelings of regret, sorrow, and disap-
pointment, to a subject which was alto-
gether omitted in that Speech-a matter
of which his majesty's councillors seemed
to have been quite regardless. He alluded
to the reprehensible omission of the name of
that country from which he had been de-
puted to that House, and whose interests it
was his duty to protect to the best of his
ability. It would appear, from the silence
of the Speech, that ministers either cared
nothing for, or knew nothing of, the state
of Ireland. Did they know, that two
thirds of the population of that country

were either totally unemployed, or couild
procure only so much employment as
barely gave them the means of subsist-
ence ? That there existed discontent in
Ireland, no one would be foolhardy enough
to deny. Was it known to ministers, that
every day hundreds of people were there
dispossessed of their lands, and banished
from their native country ? He would
not say that such a measure was not ne-
cessary, with a view to the improvement
of the condition of the peasantry who re-
mained behind; but, it was a fact notori-
ous as the sun at noon-day, that this de-
populating system was going on-that'men
were thrown upon the world without any
species of employment or of subsistence,
and with starvation and death staring
them in the face. There were other fea-
tures in the present state of Ireland which
ought to have drawn the serious attention
of ministers to that unfortunate country.






Address on the King's Speech.


Were they aware that, a very short time
since, upwards of thirteen hundred parishes
assembled, upon the same day and for the
same purpose-that at the same moment
seven millions of people raised their con-
centrated voices to demand the restoration
of their civil rights? Would it then be
said, that disappointment and deep dis-
content did not pervade the population of
Ireland? He did expect that the name
of Ireland would not have been totally
onitted.-He did expect that some allusion
would have been made to the stateot'itspopu-
lation, and that it would not have been thus
passed over with contemptuous neglect.-
If he were asked, whether he confided in
the present ministry, he would answer,
that he had every confidence in the honour
of its members. If he agreed upon politi-
cal subjects with the duke of Wellington,
there was no man in whom he would be
more ready to confide. But he differed-
widely differed-from the noble duke, with
respect to the great question which so
nearly affected his native land; and with
that difference existing between them, he
could not give his support to the noble
duke's administration; unless, indeed, he
were to desert his political principles, and
make a humbug of the Catholic question.
Upon that question he had differed with
his nearest and dearest friends; and it
was not likely that he should relinquish it
now. It might be said, that the ministry
were neutral upon that question, and that
each member of the cabinet was at liberty
to vote upon it as he pleased. But, if he
were to support such a ministry, what
should he, in fact, be doing? As far as
his humble vote would go, he should be
giving them his support during three hun-
dred and sixty-four days in the year, and
then, upon the three hundred and sixty-
fifth, he should vote for the Catholic
question, while he had been all the while
giving his aid to those who were armed
with power against it. It might be a very
good thing to support ministers; it may
be a very pleasant thing to sit on the
benches opposite, and to vote with the go- I
vernment. He would give. the govern- t
ment his support, whenever it acted in
accordance with the principles which he
professed, and while its object was the I
good of the people: but, upon those prin- t
ciples he took his stand, and from those c
principles he would never depart.
Lord Morpeth said, he perfectly agreed t
in the sentiments expressed with regard to r


Ireland, by his hon. friend. No man was
better acquainted with that subject and,
no one could do it more justice. He had
heard with astonishment the expression
applied in the Speech from the Throne,
to the battle of Navarino. He had also
heard the explanation given by the noble
Secretary at War, and he would say, that,
but for that explanation, the Speech would
have excited universal regret. During
the last two days, he had carefully consi-
dered that explanation; and he was of
opinion, that the expression in the Speech,
was unjustifiable; unaccompanied as it
was, by any distinct denial of political
blame, either on the part of the ministers
who signed the treaty, or the admiral who
fought the battle of Navarino. To the
distinguished merits of that gallant officer,
cordial testimony had been borne by all
sides of the House. But yet, without the
explanation of the noble Secretary at War,
the obvious inference from the Speech was
to the contrary effect. Why use such an
ungracious expression, unless it was in-
tended to condemn that which all the good
and great hailed with delight? Could the
English language apply no other epithet
to one of the most brilliant achievements
in the naval history of this country ?
Sir G. Warrender bore testimony to
the great merits of sir Edward Codring-
ton. He said, it could not but be matter
of congratulation with the friends of that
gallant officer, that it was unanimously
agreed that he had acted with zeal for the
honour of his country, and that whatever
differences of opinion might exist as to the
policy of the measure, all were ready to bear
testimony to his exalted merits. Differences
of opinion certainly existed as to the poli-
tical part of the transaction ; but by none
was sir E. Codrington's conduct impugned.
He regretted the language which had been
employed by ministers in speaking of the
battle of Navarino, and was glad to have
heard the explanation of the noble Secre-
tary at War.
Mr. Hobhouse said, it was not his inten-
ion to apply himself to the topics adverted
;o in the Address. He rose for the pur-
pose of asking the noble Secretary at
War- the only knight of king Arthur's
ound table in the field-whether it was
hle intention of ministers to propose a vote
)f thanks to sir E. Codrington ? and next,
whether it was their intention to lay on
he table of the House the documents con-
ected with the battle of Navarino, and


JAN. 31, 1828.







more particularly the report which he un- duction of the bill alluded to, it was ad-
derstood had been drawn up by sir John mitted on all hands, that either such a bill
Gore, who had been sent out for the ex- was necessary, or that some other course
press purpose of inquiring into the parti- should be adopted. Now, the bill in ques-
eulars of the transaction ? That gallant tion had been tried, and it had totally
officer had returned; he had seen sir Ed- failed of effect. He should therefore like
ward Codrington, and had, of course, to know what were the other remedies
made minute inquiries into the details which government was now disposed to
of the battle of Navarino. It, therefore, try ? He expected that several measures
would be extremely satisfactory to have would be introduced by government dur-
his report laid before them. ing the session, to which he should be
Mr. Duncombe rose to bear his testi- most happy to lend his support. He
mony to the merits of sir E. Codrington. would give his support to a system of im-
Whatever might be thought of the circum- provement in the Corn-laws. Though he
stances under which the battle of Nava- did not belong to the present government,
rino had been fought, there was but one and though his dearest friends did not be-
opinion, as to the bravery, gallantry, and long to it, yet, whenever its measures were
skill, displayed on that occasion. He did right, he would support them. He ex-
not think that the expression used in the pected to see them maintain the principles
Speech from the Throne was intended to of free trade. As long as the measures
impute any censure to those who had proposed by government conduced to the
signed the treaty of the 6th of July. If it good of the people, they should have his
was intended to convey such a meaning, support, whether he sat upon that or
one of those ministers, who now formed a upon the opposite side of the House.
part of the present administration, would Lord Palmerston said, that before he,
never have given his consent to the use of answered the questions which had been
it. He was confident that sir E. Codring- put to him, he hoped the House would
ton had acted according to the spirit and allow him to explain the meaning of a
letter of his instructions; but he could certain term in the Speech from the
not but think that the battle of Navarino Throne which was still misunderstood.
was an untoward event. Nobody would be more sorry than he
Mr. Spring Rice wished to put a ques- should, to be understood as meaning to
tion to the noble Secretary at War. He say, that blame was imputable to the gal-
thought the omission of all mention of Ire- lant admiral whose name had been so
land was a proof that ministers were blind often alluded to. What he meant to have
to the condition of that country, unless said, was, that the epithet untoward
their silence might be explained by mo- event" was not intended to imply the
tives not now before the House. Three slightest censure on that gallant officer.
years had elapsed since a message was That epithet had been employed, be-
brought down from the Throne, calling the cause the collision between the fleets
attention of parliament to the existence of was unexpected. Whatever merit at-
an association in Ireland, said to be preg- tached to the military movement itself,
nant with danger to the constitution, and there could be no doubt that such a con-
to the connection between the two coun- flict must have had a tendency to interrupt
tries. The measure introduced as a re- the negotiations which were pending, to
medy, had met with the most decided op- produce an alteration in the civil dispo-
position, but, at the same time, with the sition of the Porte, and oppose consider-
most anxious attention. In a single able obstacles to the adjustment of the dif-
se'nnight, it was discussed for five succes- ferences which were under discussion. It
sive nights. That bill expired in the pre- was impossible, he thought, to deny, that,
sent session, and he wished to know whe- in that sense of the word, the battle of
their it was the intention of government to Navarino was an untoward event."
propose its renewal? From the absence But, as far as it related to the character
of all notice of the subject, he inferred of the country, and to the fame of its arms,
that it was not their intention; and al- no human being could suppose that the
though he could not applaud their consis- epithet "untoward" was applied in that
tency, he could highly praise their wis- sense. In no fair construction of the pas-
4om. It might be in the recollection of sage did it imply any censure on the gal-
gentlemen, that on the occasion of the intro- plant admiral who commanded on that day.


15 HOUSE OF COMMCONS,


Address ona the King's Speech.






Address on the King's Speech.


The hon. member for Westminster had
asked, whether it was the intention of go-
vernment to propose a vote of thanks to
the gallant admiral for this victory ? In
reply, he had only to say, that he was not
aware of the existence of any such inten-
tion; and for this reason, that it was not
usual to propose a vote of thanks for an
action of this nature, when not performed
in a time of open war between the nations
to which the combatants belonged. As to
the papers to which the hon. member al-
luded, it was not, he believed, intended
to lay them before parliament. No cen-
sure whatever was implied against sir E.
Codrington; consequently, no production
of papers was necessary for the vindica-
tion of a character which no one attacked.
To produce papers where conduct was un-
impeached would be a novel proceeding;
and publication of such documents might
have an injurious effect upon negotiations
still going on. The next question which
had been put to him referred to the views
of government with respect to the Catho-
lic Association act. As the administra-
tion had only been very recently formed,
it had not been possible to give that, as
well as other topics, the necessary consi-
deration. With respect to the onrssion
of Ireland in the Speech from the Throne,
he could assure the House it was not in-
tended to set aside the strong claims of
the sister-country to have her condition
fully considered. Whether the govern-
ment were for or against the Catholic
claims, the condition of so large and inte-
gral a portion of the kingdom must be an
object of serious attention. It was not
usual for the King's Speech to advert par-
ticularly to any portion of the empire, un-
less some remarkable change had taken
place in its circumstances, subsequent to
the preceding meeting of parliament. No-
thing had occurred in Ireland during the
recess, to call for any marked observation.
True it was, that there did unfortunately
prevail in Ireland much want of employ-
ment; true it was, that plans of emigra-
tion were promoted, by arrangements of
which he disapproved, and to which he
wondered that men of property could have
assented; true it was, that there prevailed
in that country an intense anxiety to
know what were the views of parliament
with respect to the Catholic question; but
the hon. gentlemen opposite should bear
in mind, that an hon. friend of theirs (Mr.
W. Lamb), a man of great discretion and


conciliatory temper, still continued secre-
tary for Ireland. Surely the continuance
of that hon. gentleman in office ought to
to be taken as a guarantee, that every
means would be taken to calm the angry
passions of that part of the kingdom, and,
as far as possible, to allay their conflicting
animosities. Hon. gentlemen seemed to
think, because certain individuals formed
a part of the present government who
were known to be hostile to the Catholic
claims, that therefore the whole influence
of that government was to be exercised to
give effect to their opinions. Let the
House look at the confidential servants of
the Crown, and they would find that the
majority consisted of supporters of the Ca-
tholic claims. How, then, could the ad-
ministration be said to be constructed on
a principle adverse to that measure ? For
himself he could only say, that if he did
not think it was constructed on a princi-
ple of fair and honest neutrality upon that
question, and that patronage and influence
were to be fairly exerted, he, for one,
would not longer remain a member of that
government.
Mr. Hobhouse said, that, as it was not
the intention of government to propose a
vote ofthanksto admiral Codrington, henow
gave notice, that on the 14th of February
he would himself introduce such a motion.
As to precedent, there was one in point,
which it was strange the present adminis-
tration should have overlooked. He meant
that of the vote of thanks to sir Arthur Wel-
lesley, the present prime minister, for his
share in the victory at Copenhagen-a state
which we were, at the time, in friendly
alliance.
Sir M. W. Ridley said, he did not find
fault with the use of the term untoward"
in the king's Speech; especially after the
explanation which had been given. He
thought the government were justified in
their application of the term. He would
not, at that moment, question the policy
which had led to the battle of Na-
varino: the time would arrive when the
principle of the treaty of London must be
discussed. If it were approved of, then
they ought to do the admiral justice who
had enforced it. He was most anxious to
have the whole conduct of that gallant
officer inquired into. There was a great
distinction to be drawn between not cen-
suring an officer and praising him. Cau-
tion with respect to the latter, might be
justifiable until the treaty should be dis-


JAN. 31, 1828.






79 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
cussed. As to the present administration,
he would judge of them by their acts.
He saw no reason to doubt their good in-
tentions; nor did he believe the condition
of Ireland would be overlooked by them.
Changes might possibly take place in the
opinions of some persons upon the Catho-
lic question; and, if they should, the
country would, he had no doubt, have the
benefit of them. They had, in the hon.
member for Armagh, one of the purest in-
stances of such a change of opinion. An
upright man would always avow such an
alteration, when it became the deliberate
conviction of his mind. That great ques-
tion had gained ground in public opinion.
The more it was dispassionately canvassed,
the greater support it would obtain.
Lord Normanby said, that of all thesgo-
vernments he had ever seen, the present was
the one which held out the least chance of a
favourable consideration of the Catholic
claims. A majority in the cabinet afforded
no security, whdh he recollected of what
individuals it was composed. Of the
noble lord's colleagues friendly to those
claims, one of them had not long ago de-
clared that he considered the question not
to be of so much importance now as he
had formerly attached to it: another
noble lord in the cabinet, it was under-
stood, thought the question had better be
deferred: while a third noble lord had quit-
ted office last year, only, as it would seem,
because he was afraid that too many of his
colleagues would be of his own opinion.What
was there to balance against this great ma-
jority? The noble duke at the head of the
government was decidedly adverse to any
further concessions to the Catholics; and
forthe first time, since the days of Mr. Per-
ceval, the leader in the House of Commons
was also opposed to the Catholic claims.
To these facts he could not shut his eyes ;
nor could he forget what that right hon.
gentleman had openly stated in his place
last session; namely, that he had quitted
office because he could not retain it under
Mr. Canning, without giving his support
to an administration too friendly to the
Catholic question. The right hon. gentle-
man's return to office was therefore, a great
obstacle to the favourable adjustment of
that question. That was his only objec-
tion to the right hon. gentleman's return
to office. There was a report, that it was
intended to grant a portion of the- Catho-
lic claims. He should be delighted to find
it true. Come from whom it might, any


Address on the King's Speech. 80
measure of concession should receive his
support.
Mr. M. A. Taylor perfectly agreed that
the battle of Navarino was an untoward
event." He considered it a most unfor-
tunate event for this country. He did not
deny the talent and skill with which the
gallant admiral had fought the battle ; but
he did question the policy of the instruc-
tions under which he had acted. Unless
he heard a satisfactory explanation of the
grounds of the treaty, it should never have
his support. He trusted that tranquillity
would be restored with the Porte. The
consequences would otherwise be serious.
Look at the situation in which we had
placed our old ally. Look at the situa-
tion in which we had placed Russia and
France. View the long-continued policy
of the Russian government; and then let
the country judge whether the battle of
Navarino was not an untoward event."
He was satisfied that this was the general
opinion. He was in London when the
news of the battle arrived, and he had
heard the most anxious fears expressed
as to the probable consequences. God
grant they might not happen! Was there a
man in his majesty's government who did
not shudder with horror when the news
reached him ? In no point of view could
he approve of the treaty, or of its results.
Lord Euston expressed his approbation
of the conduct of the gallant admiral in.
the battle of Navarino, and lamented that
government did not intend to originate a
vote of thanks to him, for his skill and
valour on that occasion.
Sir F. Burdett said, that while he was
ready to admit the inconvenience of going
into discussions of this kind at present,
he could nothelp observing, that so far from
thinking that the battle of Navarino ought
to be described as an "untoward event,"
he considered it in the highest degree cre-
ditable to the character of the country,
and that it had raised it in the estimation
of the civilized world. He had hoped,
that those who had the manliness to have
projected the enterprise, would have had
the vigour to maintain their position.
He was sorry to see them sink beneath
the execution of their own conception,
and die, as it were, of diffidence, after
others had expressed so much satisfaction
at what they had done. For his own part,
he should when the proper time came,
be prepared to defend the policy and the
wisdom of every measure connected with






JAN. 31, 1828. 82


the battle of Navarino. He could not too
much admire the ability displayed by the
admiral and his fleet in the execution of
their perilous duty. The admiral was,
indeed, beyond the reach of the censure of
those who trembled for his act. He had
already received the sanction of the execu-
tive government, and honours had been be-
stowed upon him by his sovereign. It was
too late, therefore now, to call in question
the merit of the achievement. He had
executed the provisions of the treaty in the
spirit with which it had been originated;
and he ought to be thanked, whether there
was a precedent or not. If there was,
well and good: if not, let the subject be
discussed upon its own merits. With re-
spect to the omission of any allusion to
Ireland in the King's Speech, the noblelord
had informed the House, that that country
was in a satisfactory state ; or at least that
nothing had occurred, since last session,
to call for particular notice. He hoped
that this would appear to be the case,
when Irish subjects should come under dis-
cussion. He confessed he entertained
different anticipations upon that subject.
Mr. V. Fitzgerald deprecated discussion
at that moment upon questions which must
hereafter be debated in a regular form.
He would only make a passing allusion to
the omission of Ireland in the Speech
from the Throne. If he could believe by
this omission, that the new government
intended to cast aside the consideration
of the state of Ireland, he could assure his
hon. friend, that he had taken his seat
next him, and called for an inquiry into
the state of that country. Surely when
his hon. friend knew that the government
of Ireland was intrusted to such hands as
had been alluded to, he could not doubt
the desire of the administration to do
justice to his country. When the govern-
ment had only been in office a few days,
it was too much to expect that they should
be prepared with all those details; unless,
indeed, it could be shown, that their pre-
decessors in office had left them matured
in their bureaus ready for use. He could
not see the necessity for introducing Ireland
in the Speech from the Throne, unless
circumstances of a peculiar nature de-
manded a notice of that kind. It had
been done when the state of that country
required measures of special rigour; but,
happily, such was not now the case. Be-
sides, when it was borne in mind, that the
government of that country was confided


to those who were appointed by the go-
vernment which the hon. gentleman ap-
proved, and of which he had been a
member, where was the necessity for in-
troducing Ireland into the King's Speech ?
He would not conceal from himself, that,
with respect to the great question of Ca-
tholic emancipation, much alarm had been
excited in Ireland by the change in his
majesty's councils; but when they recol-
lected the opinion which had been stated
in that House, by those who had presided
over succeeding administrations; namely,
that the success of this important question
could not be hastened, but might be re-
tarded, by being made a cabinet question,
then those who admitted this could not
fairly complain that it was not mentioned
in the Speech from the Throne. He would
not place the success of this question on
the balance of votes in the cabinet. It
was, in his opinion, an unwise and un-
worthy mode of treating a great public
question, which had marched forward by
the force of public opinion. Most of them
must have seen it rise from minority and
defeat in that House, to success and
triumph ; and, what was still more remark-
able, they had seen it, by degrees, gaining
a victory over the public mind, and winning
the support of those who had long opposed
it. Therefore he contended, that it was
an unworthy and an unwise way to balance
its success on the votes in the cabinet. If
there was one characteristic which, more
than another, distinguished the noble per-
son at the head of his majesty's councils,
and which was almost as conspicuous as
the talents that had accumulated glories
of imperishable lustre around him, it was
his firmness, his straight-forwardness, his
honesty of character. Whatever might
be the fate of this question,-whatever
course might be taken with respect to it-
he had proved, that the influence of the
Crown should not be exerted on the occa-
sion. He had evinced this feeling, by
retaining in the councils of the country,
some of the most distinguished champions
of Catholic emancipation. The only two
new members of it held, upon this subject,
the same opinions; they had both proved
themselves to be sincere advocates of Ca-
tholic emancipation. He must consider
those individuals to be in error, who would
embattle against the present government
all who supported the Catholic question,
because that government was divided upon
the question. He trusted, however, that


Address on' the Eing's'Sfieech.






83 HOUSE OF COMMONS,


they would pause before they determined
to take such a course, and that they would
not retard a cause which had been ad-
vanced by discussion, and which, by dis-
cussion alone, would be ultimately suc-
cessful.
The report was brought up, and agreed
to,

PENRYN DISFRANCHIISEMENT BILL.]
Lord John Russell rose to move for leave
to bring in a bill to exclude the borough
of Penryn from sending members to serve
in parliament, and to enable the town of
Manchester, with certain townships adjoin-
ing, to send two burgesses to serve in
parliament." It was his intention, in the
proper stage of the bill, to move that the
franchise be granted to occupiers of houses
assessed at 201. a year, resident within six
miles of Manchester.
Mr. Fergusson thought, that evidence
should be produced to show clearly that
the elective franchise ought to be taken
from the burgesses. Last session it was
considered, that the evidence produced
was not sufficient to substantiate a charge
of bribery.
Mr. Manning hoped the noble lord would
give sufficient time, before the second
reading, to have the subject thoroughly
examined.
Lord J. Russell was willing to give any
time that might be deemed necessary for
the defence of the burgesses. He, how-
ever, would not only not bring forward
any fresh evidence, but would oppose any
motion for that purpose. The former de-
cision of the House was, he conceived,
sufficient.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

EAST RETFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT
-AND REPRESENTATION OF BIRMING-
HAM.] Mr. Tennyson rose for the purpose
of re-introducing a bill which the House
had adopted, and read a second time, at
the close of the last session, for disfran-
chising the borough of East Retford, and
giving representation to Birmingham. He
was aware that some gentlemen thought
evidence should be produced at the bar,
in addition to that taken before the Ret-
ford Election committee, on which the
House had proceeded last year. He knew
also, that other gentlemen entertained
different views from himself, as to the
destination of the franchise, if it should
be removed from East Retford. He had


thought the proper course was, to resume
the subject in that shape, substantially,
in which it had been left in the last session:
he had, however, added to the bill pro-
visions calculated to obviate the tumult,
delay, and expense, which formed the
chief objections to the representation of
large towns. As to the production of
further evidence, he was fully prepared
with it, if the House should desire to have
additional satisfaction with regard to the
corrupt state of East Retford; but as the
committee upon the bill would be the
proper stage for that evidence, if required,
as well as for any discussion with regard
to the place to which the privilege of re-
turning members to parliament should be
eventually transferred, he would not now
detain the House by any further observa-
tions, but simply move for leave to bring
in a bill, to exclude the borough of East
Retford from electing burgesses to serve
in parliament, and to enable the town of
Birmingham to return two representatives
to parliament in lieu thereof."
Mr. George Bankes said, that the cir-.
cumstances of this case were of a very
peculiar nature. The committee which
sat to consider the merits of the election
for East Retford commenced their labours
in the month of May last, and terminated
them at the end of that month; and, by
virtue of the power of suspending the
writ, which the House possessed, that
borough had since remained unrepresented.
It was acknowledged that the writ was
suspended; that the gentlemen who had
set up for the borough were unseated, not
for bribery, but for treating; which was a
very inferior offence. Now, if that were
the only offence against those who seated
them, and, if no charge of bribery were
substantiated against those gentlemen, it
was clear that there could have been no
suspension of the writ. But the committee
made a special report with respect to bri-
bery having been committed on former
occasions, and also with reference to its
having been expected on this, by those
who concurred in electing the then mem-
bers. No bribery was either brought home
to the members or to the electors. The
members were, however, unseated by the
suspension of the writ, and the consequence
was, that there was no person in the House
connected with the borough, or interested
in investigating the business. He knew
how inefficient an advocate he should
prove, if he offered to take up the cause


Easi Reftford Disfranchiisement--






85 and Representation of Birmingham.


of this party; but, having been nominee
on the election committee, and, therefore,
better acquainted with the circumstances
of the case than the members generally,
he considered it his duty to call the atten-
tion of the House, from time to time, to
the circumstances, for the purpose of de-
fending the interests of those who would
otherwise stand alone. He had no con-
nexion with the borough; no knowledge
of the parties; and no acquaintance with
the gentlemen for whom he acted as nomi-
nee: he only wished that justice should
be done, and especially if the offence were
fully proved, of the commission of which
there was certainly full and pregnant sus-
picion. He conceived that the House
would act with injustice, if it proceeded on
the present evidence. What was the con-
clusion to which the committee had come ?
The result clearly proved, that they did
not believe the evidence ; for, if they had
believed it, it was impossible that they
should not have come to the conclusion,
that bribery had been committed. It was
decided by a large majority of the com-
mittee, that the members were not guilty
of bribery; and, when the evidence was
thus, in a great measure, discredited by
those who had the best means of judging
of it; when it did not bring home the
charge of bribery; were they prepared to
say, that, because it was bad and inefficient
for one purpose, it was good for another?
It was, therefore, impossible to say that
the present evidence formed a fit ground
for disfranchising this borough, and de-
priving individuals 'of their rights. Per-
sons, be their situation high or low, found
guilty of this offence, ought to be punish-
ed; but the House ought to be slow in
coming to any hasty conclusion. His
learned friend himself would not, he was
sure, press that evidence on the House,
as the groundwork of condemnation. He
did not speak of all the evidence. The
witnesses were of different descriptions;
but those who spoke of acts of violence
were very much, if not wholly, discredited.
The charge, in this case, was certainly of
a grave nature. It was, that a strong sus-
picion existed that bribes were expected
on this occasion; as, on several former
occasions, bribes had been expected, and
were received. Now, the evidence that
applied to former transactions ought to be
received with great caution; because those
who had been accused on former occasions
had no counsel to defend them. Under


these circumstances, he thought they ought
to pause, and hear all the evidence again,
before they acted upon it. He entreated
his learned friend to proceed with as little
delay as possible; because, as they were
taught that persons accused were presumed
to be innocent until they were found guilty,
it was evident that this case of the bur-
gesses of East Retford was rather a hard
one.
Mr. Batley agreed, generally, with what
had fallen from the hon. gentleman who
had spoken last; but he would go a point
further, and would say, that he did not
see the justice of disfranchising a borough,
merely because it could be proved that
some forty or fifty of the voters had given
their votes with an expectation of being
bribed for so doing. The members who
had been returned had been acquitted of
bribery, and that was a material point.
Mr. Tennyson replied. He assured his
hon. friend (Mr. G. Bankes) of his anxiety
to bring the subject under consideration
to an early conclusion; not only on ac-
count of the important interests involved,
but of the desire which he felt, in common
with every gentleman who had the conduct
of a public bill, to be speedily relieved
from his labours. He would not then
enter upon any reply to the numerous ob-
servations of his hon. friend, as a more fit
opportunity would occur for the discus-
sions to which they would lead, but, in
consequence of what had fallen from both
the hon. members who had spoken, he felt
it right to remind the House, that the
ground on which the House allowed him
to proceed with this bill in the last session
was-not any specific bribery at the last
election for East Retford-but the sys-
tematic corruption which had prevailed
there for a series of elections past, and as
far back as the memory of man extended,
which rendered the electors totally unfit
to be further trusted with the franchise.
Of this corruption he repeated, that, if
the House was not satisfied already, he
was prepared with proofs so ample and
conclusive, that he expected its unanimous
concurrence with regard to the disfran-
chisement of East Retford.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

PROTrocOL AND TREATY FOR THE
PACIFICATION OF GREECE.] Lord
Palmerston presented, by command, the
following Protocol and Treaty-


JAw. 31, 1828. 86






87 HOUSE OF COMMONS,

PROTOCOL relative to the Affairs of
Greece. Signed at St. Petersburgh,
April 4, 1826. (TRANSLATION.)
His Britannic Majesty having been
requested by the Greeks to interpose his
good offices, in order to obtain their re-
conciliation with the Ottoman Porte;
having, in consequence, offered his Media-
tion to that Power, and being desirous of
concerting the measures of his Govern-
ment, upon this subject, with his Majesty
the Emperor of all the Russias; and his
Imperial Majesty, on the other hand, being
equally animated by the desire of putting
an end to the contest of which Greece and
the Archipelago are the theatre, by an ar-
rangement, which shall be consistent with
the principles of religion, justice, and
humanity;
The Undersigned have agreed:
1. That the arrangement to be proposed
to the Porte, if that Government should
accept the proffered Mediation, should
have for its object, to place the Greeks to-
wards the Ottoman Porte, in the relation
hereafter mentioned:
Greece should be a dependency of that
Empire, and the Greeks should pay to
the Porte an annual tribute, the amount
of which should be permanently fixed by
common consent. They should be exclu-
sively governed by Authorities, to be
chosen and named by themselves, but in
the nomination of which Authorities the
Porte should have a certain influence.
In this state, the Greeks should enjoy
a complete liberty of conscience, entire
freedom of commerce, and should, exclu-
sively, conduct their own internal govern-
ment.
In order to effect a complete separation
between individuals of the two nations,
and to prevent the collisions which must
be the necessary consequences of a contest
of such duration, the Greeks should pur-
chase the property of Turks, whether
situated on the Continent of Greece, or in
the Islands.
2. In case the principle of a Mediation
between Turks and Greeks should have
been admitted, in consequence of the steps
taken, with that view, by his Britannic
Majesty's Ambassador at Constantinople,
his Imperial Majesty would exert, in every
case, his influence to forward the object
of that Mediation. The mode in which,
and the time at which, his Imperial Ma-
jesty should take part in the ulterior nego-


Protocol, and Treatyfor the 88
tiations with the Ottoman Porte, which
may be the consequence of that Mediation,
should be determined hereafter by the com-
mon consent of the governments of his Bri-
tannic Majesty and his Imperial Majesty.
3. If the Mediation offered by his Bri-
tannic Majesty should not have been ac-
cepted by the Porte, and whatever may
be the nature of the relations between his
Imperial Majesty and the Turkish govern-
ment, his Britannic Majesty and his Im-
perial Majesty will still consider the terms
of the arrangement specified in No. 1 of
this Protocol, as the basis of any recon-
ciliation to be effected by their interven-
tion, whether in concert or separately,
between the Porte and the Greeks; and
they will avail themselves of every favour-
able opportunity to exert their influence
with both Parties, in order to effect their
reconciliation on the above-mentioned basis.
4. That his Britannic Majesty and his
Imperial Majesty should reserve to them-
selves to adopt, hereafter, the measures
necessary for the settlement of the details
of the arrangement in question, as well
as the limits of the Territory, and the
names of the Islands of the Archipelago
to which it shall be applicable, and which
it shall be proposed to the Porte to com-
prise under the denomination of Greece.
5. That, moreover, his Britannic Ma-
jesty and his Imperial Majesty will not
seek, in this arrangement, any increase of
Territory, nor any exclusive influence, nor
advantage in commerce for their Subjects,
which shall not be equally attainable by
all other Nations.
6. That his Britannic Majesty and his
Imperial Majesty, being desirous that their
Allies should become parties to the defini-
tive arrangements of which this Protocol
contains the outline, will communicate
this Instrument, confidentially, to the
Courts of Vienna, Paris, and Berlin, and
will propose to them that they should, in
concert with the Emperor of Russia,
guarantee the treaty by which the recon-
ciliation of Turks and Greeks shall be
effected, as his Britannic Majesty cannot
guarantee such a Treaty. (Signed)
St. Petersburgh, WELLINGTON.
April 4-March 23, NESSELRODE.
1826. LIEVEN.
TREATY FOR THE PACIFICATION OF
GREECE, between his Majesty, the
Most Christian King, and the Em-
peror of all the Russias. Signed
London.July 6,1827 (TRANSLATION.)






89 Pacification of Greece.
In the name of the Most Holy and Un-
divided Trinity.-His Majesty the King
of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Ireland, his Majesty the King of France
and Navarre, and his Majesty the Emperor
of all the Russias, penetrated with the
necessity of putting an end to the san-
guinary struggle, which, while it abandons
the Greek Provinces and the Islands of
the Archipelago to all the disorders of
anarchy, daily causes fresh impediments
to the commerce of the States of Europe,
and gives opportunity for acts of piracy
which not only expose the Subjects of the
High Contracting Parties to grievous losses,
but also render necessary measures which
are burthensome for their observation and
suppression ;-
His Majesty the King of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and
his Majesty the Kingof France and Navarre,
having moreover received from the Greeks
an earnest invitation to interpose their
mediation with the Ottoman Porte; and,
together with his Majesty the Emperor of
all the Russias, being animated with the
desire of putting a stop to the effusion of
blood, and of preventing the evils of every
kind which the continuance of such a state
of affairs may produce ;
They have resolved to combine their
efforts, and to regulate the operation there-
of, by a formal Treaty, for the object of re-
establishing peace between the contending
Parties, by means of an arrangement called
for, no less by sentiments of humanity,
than by interests for the tranquillity of
Europe.
For these purposes, they have named
Their Plenipotentiaries to discuss, to con-
clude, and sign, the said Treaty, that is to
say :-
His Majesty the King of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the
Right Honourable John William Viscount
Dudley, a Peer of the United Kingdom of
Great Britain and Ireland, a Member of his
said Majesty's Most Honourable Privy
Council, and his Principal Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs:-
His Majesty the King of France and
Navarre, the Prince Jules, Count de Po-
lignac, a Peer of France, Knight of the
Orders of his Most Christian Majesty,
Mar6chal-de-Camp of his Forces, Grand
Cross of the Order of St. Maurice of Sar-
dinia, &c. &c. and his Ambassador at
London :-
And his Majesty the Emperor of all the


JAN. 31, 1828. 90
Russias, the Sieur Christopher Prince de
Lieven, General of Infantry of his Imperial
Majesty's Forces, his Aide-de-Camp Gene-
ral, Knight of the Orders of Russia, of those
of the Black Eagle and of the Red Eagle of
Prussia, of that of the Guelphs of Hanover,
Commander Grand Cross of the Order of
the Sword of Sweden, and of that of St.
John of Jerusalem, his Ambassador Extra-
ordinary and Plenipotentiary to his Britan-
nic Majesty :
Who, after having communicated to
each other their Full Powers, found to be
in due and proper form, have agreed upon
the following Articles :---
Art. 1. The Contracting Powers shall
offer their Mediation to the Ottoman Porte,
with the view of effecting a reconciliation
between It and the Greeks.
This offer of Mediation shall be made
to that Power immediately after the Ratifi-
cation of the present Treaty, by means of
a joint declaration, signed by Plenipoten-
tiaries of the Allied Courts at Constan-
tinople; and, at the same time, a demand
for an immediate Armistice shall be made
to the Two Contending Parties, as a pre-
liminary and indispensable condition to the
opening of any negotiation.
2. The arrangement to be proposed to
the Ottoman Porte shall rest upon the fol-
lowing bases :-
The Greeks shall hold under the Sultan
as under a Lord paramount; and, in con-
sequence thereof, they shall pay to the
Ottoman empire an annual tribute, the
amount of which shall be fixed, once for
all, by common agreement. They shallbe
governed by Authorities whom they shall
choose and appoint themselves, but in the
nomination of whom the Porte shall have
a defined right.
In order to effect a complete separation
between the individuals of the two Nations,
and to prevent the collisions which would
be the inevitable consequence of so pro-
tracted a struggle, the Greeks shall become
possessors of all Turkish Property situated
either upon the Continent, or in the Islands
of Greece, on condition of indemnifying
the former proprietors, either by an annual
sum to be added to the tribute which they
shall pay to the Porte, or by some other
arrangement of the same nature.
3. The details of this arrangement, as
well as the limits of the territory upon the
Continent, and the designation of the
Islands of the Archipelago to which it shall
be applicable, shall be settled by a nego-







tiation th be hereafter entered into between tions with the Greeks, and by sending to
the High Pdters and the Two Contending and receiving from them, for this putpse1 ,
Patties. Consular Agents, provided there shall exist
4. The Contracting Powers engage to in Greece Authorities capable of supporting
pursue the salutary work of the pacifica- such relations.
tiso of Greece, upon the bases laid down 2. If, within the said term of one
in the preceding Articles, and to furnish, month, the Porte does not accept the
without the least delay, their Representa- armistice proposed in the first article of
ties at Constantinople with all the In- the patent Treaty, or if the Greeks refasd
sanctions which ae required for the exe- to carry it into execution, the high con-
cution of the Treaty which they now tracing powers shall declare to either of
sign. the contending parties which may be dis-
S. The Contracting Powers will not posed to continue hostilities, or to both
seek, in these arrangements, any augmen- of them, if necessary, that the said high
station of territory, any exclusive influence, powers intend to exert all the means which
or any commercial advantage for their circtumstances may suggest to their ptu-
Subjects, Which those of every other dence, for the purpose of obtaining the
Nation may not equally obtain. immediate effects of the armistice of
6. The arrarigerients fbr reconciliation which they desire the execution by pre-
and peace which shall be definitively ventii. as fat as possible, all collision
agreed upon between the Contending between the contending parties; and in
Patties, shall be guaranteed by those of consequence, immediately after the above
the Signing Powers who may judge it mentioned declaration, the high powers
expedient or possible to contract that ob- will, jointly, exert all their efforts to ac-
ligation. The operation and the effects of complish the object of such armistice,
siceh guarantee shall become the subject without, however, taking any part in the
of future stipulation between the High hostilities between the two contending
POwers. parties.
7. The present Treaty shall be ratified, i Immediately after the signature of the
and the ratifications shall be exchanged in present additional article, the high con-
two rionths, or sooner if possible. In tracting powers will, consequently, trans-
witness whereof, the respective Plenipo- mit to the admirals commanding their re-
tetitiaries have signed the same, and have spective squadrons in the Levant, con-
affixed thereto the Seals of their Arms. ditional instructions in conformity to the
Ddne at London, the Sixth day of July, arrangements above declared.
in the Year of our Lord, 1827. 3. Finally, if, contrary to all expecta-
(L. S.) DUDLEY. tion, these measures do not prove sufficierit
(L. S.) TiH PRItrc DE PotIGNAc. to procure the adoption of the propositions
(L. S.) LlEVEtE. of the high contracting parties by the
Additional Article.-In case the Ot- Ottoman Porte; or if, on the other hand,
toman Porte should not, within the space the Greeks decline the conditions sti--
of one month, accept the mediation which pulated in their favour, by the Treaty of
is to be proposed to It, the High Contract- this date, the high contracting powers
itig Parties agree upon the following will, nevertheless, continue to pursue the
measures :- work of pacification, on the bases upon
1. It shall be declared to the Porte, by which they have agreed; and, in conse-
Their Representatives at Constantinople, quence, they authorise, from the present
that the inconveniencies and evils described moment, their representatives at London,
in the patent Treaty as inseparable from I to discuss and determine the future tiea-
the state of things which has, for six years, sures which it may become necessary to
existed in the East, and the termination employ.
of which, by the means at the command of The present additional article shall have
the Sublime Ottoman Porte, appears to be the same force and validity as if it were
still distant, impose upon the High Con- inserted, word for word, in the Treaty of
tracting Parties the necessity of taking this day. It shall be ratified, and the ra-
immediate measures for forming a con- tifications shall be exchanged at the same
nettion with the Greeks. time as those of the said Treaty.
It is understood that this shall be In witness whereof the respective pleni-
effected by establishing commercial rela- potentiaries have signed the same, and


P-toloco and li~aty, c.


91 HOUSE OQF COMVIMON$,,






93 Commifleet bf Supply.
have affixed thereto the seals of their arms.
Dotie at London, the Sixth day of July,
in the year of our Lord 1827.
(L.S.) DUDLEY.
(L. S.) THE PRINCE DE POLIGNAC.
(L. S.) LIEVEN.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 1.
ROMAN CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION.]
The Marquis of Londonderry said, he
wished to offer a few words on the sub-
ject connected with the Roman Catholics
of Ireland. As a friend to them and to
their cause, it was impossible for him to
see without anxiety the public journals
teeming with such monstrous resolutions
as those which had been submitted to an
assembly of persons calling themselves
the meeting of the Roman Catholics of
Ireland. Their lordships would recollect,
that a bill had been passed to put down
such associations. Notwithstanding that
bill, these associations continued to exist,
and a resolution had been laid before
them of so extraordinary a nature, that it
was impossible for him not to allude to it;
for if that resolution was actually the re-
solution of the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land, he, as one of their sincerest friends,
would declare, that instead of making him
hope that their cause would advance, it
would give him reason to wish that it
might not. Precisely the same sentiment
he had expressed two years ago. He had
then said, that if he thought the Catholics
of Ireland would, by intimidation or threat,
endeavour to carry their object, he would
be the first to oppose them. The resolu-
tion to which he had alluded was as fol-
lows :-" Resolved; that we feel it a duty
we owe to the Irish people to declare, that
we shall consider every Irish member of
parliament an enemy to the freedom,
peace, and happiness, of Ireland, who shall
support, either directly or indirectly, any
administration of which the duke of Wel-
lington, or any individual professing his
principles, is the head or contriver; and
we call on all counties, cities, towns, and
parishes in Ireland, to act upon the spirit
of this resolution." Now, he must look
upon this resolution as a complete threat;
but he believed that the Catholics of Ire-
land would not approve of it. He was
sure that a better spirit prevailed amongst
them. If such proceedings, however,
were suffered to continue, they would be


#tn. 1, 188. 04
the means of prejudicing the caiue tf the
Catholics in the eyes of their friends. He
was convinced that the resolution Would
have no effect on the conduct of any per-
son, and that every member would joiti
with him in reprobating it.
Lord Clifden said, that no mat ivas
less disposed than he was to countenance
such proceedings, but still he thought that
some allowance doght to be made for the
use of intemperate language. He agreed,
that many things which had been said by
members of the Catholic association had
displeased the friends of their cause; but
their lordships ought not to look at a great
public question under feelings excited by
the intemperate harangues of this man or
of that. The king of the Netherlands
had entered into an aira. niiin.t with the
Pope, respecting his Catholic subjects.
Why could not we do the same ? It was
not to be wondered at, if intemperate lan-
guage should break forth from a people
whose hopes had been deferred for seven
and twenty years. It was not in human
nature to put up with such injustice.

TURKEY AND GREECE.] Lord Hol-
land said, that he rose for the purpose of
giving notice of a motion. The papers
which his noble friend the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs, had brought down the
other day, were highly satisfactory as
showing a disposition, on the part of his
majesty's government, to give every in-
formation on the subject to which the
papers referred. They nevertheless, ap-
peared to him to be incomplete. He
therefore gave notice, that he intended to
move for the production of certain papers
on Monday next. His motion would
comprise two objects: first, to ascertain
the state of the relations between this
country and the Ottoman Porte; and
next, the nature of the instructions given
to the admiral commanding the combined
fleet in the Mediterranean.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 1.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.] Lord Pal-
merston gave notice, that on Monday he
would move, that the House should resolve
itself into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. Hume asked, whether it was the
intention of the noble lord to call upon
the House to vote any of the supplies for
the current year before, the chancellor of
the Exchequer had taken his seat ?






93 Commifleet bf Supply.
have affixed thereto the seals of their arms.
Dotie at London, the Sixth day of July,
in the year of our Lord 1827.
(L.S.) DUDLEY.
(L. S.) THE PRINCE DE POLIGNAC.
(L. S.) LIEVEN.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 1.
ROMAN CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION.]
The Marquis of Londonderry said, he
wished to offer a few words on the sub-
ject connected with the Roman Catholics
of Ireland. As a friend to them and to
their cause, it was impossible for him to
see without anxiety the public journals
teeming with such monstrous resolutions
as those which had been submitted to an
assembly of persons calling themselves
the meeting of the Roman Catholics of
Ireland. Their lordships would recollect,
that a bill had been passed to put down
such associations. Notwithstanding that
bill, these associations continued to exist,
and a resolution had been laid before
them of so extraordinary a nature, that it
was impossible for him not to allude to it;
for if that resolution was actually the re-
solution of the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land, he, as one of their sincerest friends,
would declare, that instead of making him
hope that their cause would advance, it
would give him reason to wish that it
might not. Precisely the same sentiment
he had expressed two years ago. He had
then said, that if he thought the Catholics
of Ireland would, by intimidation or threat,
endeavour to carry their object, he would
be the first to oppose them. The resolu-
tion to which he had alluded was as fol-
lows :-" Resolved; that we feel it a duty
we owe to the Irish people to declare, that
we shall consider every Irish member of
parliament an enemy to the freedom,
peace, and happiness, of Ireland, who shall
support, either directly or indirectly, any
administration of which the duke of Wel-
lington, or any individual professing his
principles, is the head or contriver; and
we call on all counties, cities, towns, and
parishes in Ireland, to act upon the spirit
of this resolution." Now, he must look
upon this resolution as a complete threat;
but he believed that the Catholics of Ire-
land would not approve of it. He was
sure that a better spirit prevailed amongst
them. If such proceedings, however,
were suffered to continue, they would be


#tn. 1, 188. 04
the means of prejudicing the caiue tf the
Catholics in the eyes of their friends. He
was convinced that the resolution Would
have no effect on the conduct of any per-
son, and that every member would joiti
with him in reprobating it.
Lord Clifden said, that no mat ivas
less disposed than he was to countenance
such proceedings, but still he thought that
some allowance doght to be made for the
use of intemperate language. He agreed,
that many things which had been said by
members of the Catholic association had
displeased the friends of their cause; but
their lordships ought not to look at a great
public question under feelings excited by
the intemperate harangues of this man or
of that. The king of the Netherlands
had entered into an aira. niiin.t with the
Pope, respecting his Catholic subjects.
Why could not we do the same ? It was
not to be wondered at, if intemperate lan-
guage should break forth from a people
whose hopes had been deferred for seven
and twenty years. It was not in human
nature to put up with such injustice.

TURKEY AND GREECE.] Lord Hol-
land said, that he rose for the purpose of
giving notice of a motion. The papers
which his noble friend the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs, had brought down the
other day, were highly satisfactory as
showing a disposition, on the part of his
majesty's government, to give every in-
formation on the subject to which the
papers referred. They nevertheless, ap-
peared to him to be incomplete. He
therefore gave notice, that he intended to
move for the production of certain papers
on Monday next. His motion would
comprise two objects: first, to ascertain
the state of the relations between this
country and the Ottoman Porte; and
next, the nature of the instructions given
to the admiral commanding the combined
fleet in the Mediterranean.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 1.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.] Lord Pal-
merston gave notice, that on Monday he
would move, that the House should resolve
itself into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. Hume asked, whether it was the
intention of the noble lord to call upon
the House to vote any of the supplies for
the current year before, the chancellor of
the Exchequer had taken his seat ?





95 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Lord Palmerston said, it was his inten-
tion to move only for certain supplies out
pf funds, which were not strictly available
without the authority of the House. His
'object was to prevent the obstruction
of the public service from the want of
those funds.
Mr. Hume said, that with regard to any
balance which might remain in the Trea-
sury from last year, he had no objection
that government should bring it forward
to meet the current expenses.
Mr. Maberly trusted, that when the
estimates were brought forward, they would
evince a due attention to economy in
every department of the state. It would
be impossible ifor the finance committee
to make any report until a late period of
the session. In the mean time, he would
urge upon government the adoption of as
severe a system of economy as if that re-
port was before the House.
Mr. Calcraft supposed that as the new
administration had not had time to prepare
fresh estimates, they would bring forward
thosewhich the late ministry had leftbehind
them. If that was the case, he had no
doubt, that a due attention would be paid
to economy and retrenchment. He un-
derstood it to be merely the noble lord's
intention to propose on Monday to render
available certain funds, to do which the
authority of the House was necessary.
Lord Palmerston said, that the hon.


Corporation and Test Acts. 96
it to parishes. At present, no parish
could adopt this useful system of commu-
tation without making a special applica-
tion to parliament; and the enormous
expense attendant upon such application
rendered it, in many instances, impractica-
ble. By the intended bill commissioners
would be appointed ; and to prevent fraud
or collusion, one of those commissioners
would be the clergyman of the parish: all
their proceedings would be public, and
every party interested would have an op-
portunity of informing himself of the acts
done by the commissioners and the tithe
valuators
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 4.
KING'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.]
Lord Palmerston presented the King's
Answer to the Address of Thanks as fol-
lows :-
I thank you for this loyal and dutiful
Address. The assurances of your cordial
co-operation, in advancing the welfare and
prosperity of my People, are highly satis-
factory to me. You may rely upon my
unwearied endeavours to maintain the
national interests and honour, and to pre-
serve to this country and the world, the
inestimable blessings of peace."


member had correctly stated the object of CORPORATION AND TEST ACTS.] Mr.
his motion. John Smith, in presenting a petition from
the Unitarian congregation assembling in
FINANCE COMMITTEE.] Mr. E. D. the New Gravel-pit Meeting House at
Davenport wished to know, whether any Hackney, praying for the repeal of these
steps had been taken towards the appoint- acts, said, he was bound to observe that it
ment of the Finance Committee, and was signed by individuals of talent, wealth,
whether the noble lord could state the and moral excellence, inferior to no class
names of its intended members. of the community. There was one point
Lord Palmerston said, it was impossible connected with the numerous classes of
for him to anticipate the names of the persons, of whom the petitioners formed a
members, whom the House, in its wisdom, branch, on which he was anxious to say a
would nominate upon the committee. few words. It had been stated in the
newspapers and elsewhere, that the Dis-
CORN-RENT TITHES.] Mr. Green said, senters had coalesced with the Catholics,
he rose to bring in a bill "to enable for the purpose of obtaining, in conjunc-
clergymen and their parishioners to com- tion, the removal of their mutual disabili-
mute for Corn-Rents the Tithes within ties. Now, he was authorised positively
their respective parishes." The hon. to state, that they had done no such thing.
member dwelt upon the beneficial effects A united committee had been appointed
which would flow from such a measure. by the Dissenters, to whom was intrusted
The principle upon which the bill was the management of the application to par-
founded was not a novel one. It had liament for a repeal of the Corporation
frequently been applied in the instances and Test Acts. That committee, which,
of private bills; and he wished to extend he could say, without fear of contradic-






93 Commifleet bf Supply.
have affixed thereto the seals of their arms.
Dotie at London, the Sixth day of July,
in the year of our Lord 1827.
(L.S.) DUDLEY.
(L. S.) THE PRINCE DE POLIGNAC.
(L. S.) LIEVEN.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 1.
ROMAN CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION.]
The Marquis of Londonderry said, he
wished to offer a few words on the sub-
ject connected with the Roman Catholics
of Ireland. As a friend to them and to
their cause, it was impossible for him to
see without anxiety the public journals
teeming with such monstrous resolutions
as those which had been submitted to an
assembly of persons calling themselves
the meeting of the Roman Catholics of
Ireland. Their lordships would recollect,
that a bill had been passed to put down
such associations. Notwithstanding that
bill, these associations continued to exist,
and a resolution had been laid before
them of so extraordinary a nature, that it
was impossible for him not to allude to it;
for if that resolution was actually the re-
solution of the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land, he, as one of their sincerest friends,
would declare, that instead of making him
hope that their cause would advance, it
would give him reason to wish that it
might not. Precisely the same sentiment
he had expressed two years ago. He had
then said, that if he thought the Catholics
of Ireland would, by intimidation or threat,
endeavour to carry their object, he would
be the first to oppose them. The resolu-
tion to which he had alluded was as fol-
lows :-" Resolved; that we feel it a duty
we owe to the Irish people to declare, that
we shall consider every Irish member of
parliament an enemy to the freedom,
peace, and happiness, of Ireland, who shall
support, either directly or indirectly, any
administration of which the duke of Wel-
lington, or any individual professing his
principles, is the head or contriver; and
we call on all counties, cities, towns, and
parishes in Ireland, to act upon the spirit
of this resolution." Now, he must look
upon this resolution as a complete threat;
but he believed that the Catholics of Ire-
land would not approve of it. He was
sure that a better spirit prevailed amongst
them. If such proceedings, however,
were suffered to continue, they would be


#tn. 1, 188. 04
the means of prejudicing the caiue tf the
Catholics in the eyes of their friends. He
was convinced that the resolution Would
have no effect on the conduct of any per-
son, and that every member would joiti
with him in reprobating it.
Lord Clifden said, that no mat ivas
less disposed than he was to countenance
such proceedings, but still he thought that
some allowance doght to be made for the
use of intemperate language. He agreed,
that many things which had been said by
members of the Catholic association had
displeased the friends of their cause; but
their lordships ought not to look at a great
public question under feelings excited by
the intemperate harangues of this man or
of that. The king of the Netherlands
had entered into an aira. niiin.t with the
Pope, respecting his Catholic subjects.
Why could not we do the same ? It was
not to be wondered at, if intemperate lan-
guage should break forth from a people
whose hopes had been deferred for seven
and twenty years. It was not in human
nature to put up with such injustice.

TURKEY AND GREECE.] Lord Hol-
land said, that he rose for the purpose of
giving notice of a motion. The papers
which his noble friend the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs, had brought down the
other day, were highly satisfactory as
showing a disposition, on the part of his
majesty's government, to give every in-
formation on the subject to which the
papers referred. They nevertheless, ap-
peared to him to be incomplete. He
therefore gave notice, that he intended to
move for the production of certain papers
on Monday next. His motion would
comprise two objects: first, to ascertain
the state of the relations between this
country and the Ottoman Porte; and
next, the nature of the instructions given
to the admiral commanding the combined
fleet in the Mediterranean.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 1.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.] Lord Pal-
merston gave notice, that on Monday he
would move, that the House should resolve
itself into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. Hume asked, whether it was the
intention of the noble lord to call upon
the House to vote any of the supplies for
the current year before, the chancellor of
the Exchequer had taken his seat ?





95 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Lord Palmerston said, it was his inten-
tion to move only for certain supplies out
pf funds, which were not strictly available
without the authority of the House. His
'object was to prevent the obstruction
of the public service from the want of
those funds.
Mr. Hume said, that with regard to any
balance which might remain in the Trea-
sury from last year, he had no objection
that government should bring it forward
to meet the current expenses.
Mr. Maberly trusted, that when the
estimates were brought forward, they would
evince a due attention to economy in
every department of the state. It would
be impossible ifor the finance committee
to make any report until a late period of
the session. In the mean time, he would
urge upon government the adoption of as
severe a system of economy as if that re-
port was before the House.
Mr. Calcraft supposed that as the new
administration had not had time to prepare
fresh estimates, they would bring forward
thosewhich the late ministry had leftbehind
them. If that was the case, he had no
doubt, that a due attention would be paid
to economy and retrenchment. He un-
derstood it to be merely the noble lord's
intention to propose on Monday to render
available certain funds, to do which the
authority of the House was necessary.
Lord Palmerston said, that the hon.


Corporation and Test Acts. 96
it to parishes. At present, no parish
could adopt this useful system of commu-
tation without making a special applica-
tion to parliament; and the enormous
expense attendant upon such application
rendered it, in many instances, impractica-
ble. By the intended bill commissioners
would be appointed ; and to prevent fraud
or collusion, one of those commissioners
would be the clergyman of the parish: all
their proceedings would be public, and
every party interested would have an op-
portunity of informing himself of the acts
done by the commissioners and the tithe
valuators
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 4.
KING'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.]
Lord Palmerston presented the King's
Answer to the Address of Thanks as fol-
lows :-
I thank you for this loyal and dutiful
Address. The assurances of your cordial
co-operation, in advancing the welfare and
prosperity of my People, are highly satis-
factory to me. You may rely upon my
unwearied endeavours to maintain the
national interests and honour, and to pre-
serve to this country and the world, the
inestimable blessings of peace."


member had correctly stated the object of CORPORATION AND TEST ACTS.] Mr.
his motion. John Smith, in presenting a petition from
the Unitarian congregation assembling in
FINANCE COMMITTEE.] Mr. E. D. the New Gravel-pit Meeting House at
Davenport wished to know, whether any Hackney, praying for the repeal of these
steps had been taken towards the appoint- acts, said, he was bound to observe that it
ment of the Finance Committee, and was signed by individuals of talent, wealth,
whether the noble lord could state the and moral excellence, inferior to no class
names of its intended members. of the community. There was one point
Lord Palmerston said, it was impossible connected with the numerous classes of
for him to anticipate the names of the persons, of whom the petitioners formed a
members, whom the House, in its wisdom, branch, on which he was anxious to say a
would nominate upon the committee. few words. It had been stated in the
newspapers and elsewhere, that the Dis-
CORN-RENT TITHES.] Mr. Green said, senters had coalesced with the Catholics,
he rose to bring in a bill "to enable for the purpose of obtaining, in conjunc-
clergymen and their parishioners to com- tion, the removal of their mutual disabili-
mute for Corn-Rents the Tithes within ties. Now, he was authorised positively
their respective parishes." The hon. to state, that they had done no such thing.
member dwelt upon the beneficial effects A united committee had been appointed
which would flow from such a measure. by the Dissenters, to whom was intrusted
The principle upon which the bill was the management of the application to par-
founded was not a novel one. It had liament for a repeal of the Corporation
frequently been applied in the instances and Test Acts. That committee, which,
of private bills; and he wished to extend he could say, without fear of contradic-







tion, spoke the sentiments of the Dis- hoped that his example would still be use-
senters at large, had that very day entered ful to his country,-that the mens divinior
into the following resolution : The which accompanied him through his
United Committee of Dissenters, acting on splendid career, had shed a light on our
their own best judgment, and under the foreign and domestic policy, which would
recommendation of many of their parlia- serve to guide those by whom he had been
mentary friends, have come to the resolu- succeeded. Although, by the death of
tion, that it is not expedient for the Dis- that lamented individual, the main strength
senters to unite their applications to par- of the existing administration was with-
liament with those of the Roman Catho- drawn, it should have had his feeble sup-
lies; but they distinctly disavow the port; but he was sorry to say that it had
inference, that their acting separately, and not proceeded with the vigour which
independently, proceeds from any hostility might have been expected, and that it
to the claims of that numerous and re- suffered itself to be dissolved, untouched
spectable body." He could say, from his by any hostile collision. He now came to
own knowledge, that there never was a the period when, called on by the monarch,
more scandalous calumny than the state- the present cabinet was formed by the
ment which had been so frequently made, noble duke who was placed at its head.
that the Dissenters, as a body, were ad- For that illustrious individual, no man
verse to the claims of the Roman Catho- could entertain a higher feeling of admira-
lics. tion. He had been the saviour of his
Ordered to lie on the table. country in the most arduous crisis that
she had ever experienced. By his admirable
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY-CHANGE OF conduct in the field, he had given peace
ADMINISTRATION.] Lord Palmerston to desolated Europe, and had justly earned
moved the order of the day, for going into the gratitude of his country. But, in spite
a Committee of Supply. of that noble duke's unquestionable
Mr. Liddell said, that as it was one of abilities, he could not view his translation
the most important rights which a member from the post of commander-in-chief of
of that House possessed, to deliver his the army, to that of first lord of the Trea-
opinions on such an occasion as the sury with satisfaction. His original part
present, he trusted that no apology was was so well cast, his value to the army
necessary, when he stood up to express, in was so well known, that the public opinion
as few words as possible, his sentiments was united on this point, that he could
on the situation in which the government not be placed in a more proper situation
was placed, and to declare the grounds on than that which, as a military man, he so
which alone he could give it is humble ably and advantageously filled. He there-
support. If any such apology were neces- fore regretted, as he believed the country
sary, it was, he conceived, to be found in in general did, that the change had taken
the fact, that in the last twelve months place. The duke of Wellington himself
the country had seen various important must have felt some repugnance at the
changes in the ministry : that during that situation in which he had been placed. It
period there had been no fewer than four was reported, and the report had not been
different prime ministers. Twelve months denied, that Mr. Canning had written to
had not gone over their heads since the the duke, and had pointed out the incom-
great struggle took place between Mr. patibility of his holding the two offices
Canning and the powerful party by whom which he had subsequently filled. In the
he was opposed, arid who, though then propriety of the sentiments contained in
defeated, had again gained the ascendancy. that letter, the noble duke was said to have
Many of those who stood by Mr. Canning agreed. In the House of Lords last
in that time of trial had ceased to have session, the noble duke had himself de-
any connexion with the ministry : a few of cared, that he could not, with pro-
them still remained in authority. For priety, fill the two situations. This was
himself, he could truly say, that no man upon record;* and he trusted that the
was a more ardent admirer, no man a more noble duke would not act differently in
cordial supporter, of Mr. Canning. It was the present year from the sentiments which
true that that great man was no more : he had uttered in the last. Highly as he
they no longer had the benefit of his ex-
perience and his talents; but it was to be See vol. xvii. p. 461.
VOL. XVIII. E


Committee of Supply.


FEB. 1, 1828.






99 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
thought of the noble duke's abilities, and
of his firm character, still he could not
bring himself to believe that he possessed
those Atlean shoulders, which would
enable him to support the whole weight of
the administration, together with the
duties of the War-office. The noble duke
had gained fame and credit for the British
army, he had added honour and renown
to his country as a warrior, but it did not
therefore follow that his talents were
adapted to the situation which he now
held. There was another gentleman con-
nected with the present administration,
relative to whom he wished to say a word
or two. He alluded to the Secretary of
State for the Home Department. The
return of that right hon. gentleman to
office was hailed with satisfaction by a
large portion of the public, but, upon one
important question, he held sentiments
exceedingly different from those held by
that right hon. gentleman. He was aware
that it was precisely on account of the line
of conduct pursued by him in reference to
that topic, that the right hon. gentleman
was looked upon by very many loyal and
well-meaning subjects as one of the main
pillars of the state. But he must say,
that if the right hon. gentleman's claims
to the confidence of the country were
founded upon no other grounds than his
policy upon that question, what appeared
to others to constitute him a pillar of the
state, operated as a barrier of exclusion to
thousands, nay millions, of their fellow-
subjects, who had for years been waiting
at the threshold of the constitution, im-
ploring to be admitted beneath its roof.
He hoped that the principles of free trade
would not be abandoned. He was desirous
to see those principles acted upon, with
judicious modifications. With regard to
Ireland, something, he felt, must be done
for that distracted country. Concession
ought to be resorted to, not coercion. If
any measures of a coercive nature were
brought forward before concession was
tried to its fullest extent, such measures
should have his reprobation. It was time
for them to shape their course anew-to
choose between peace and war, loyalty and
rebellion, tranquillity and convulsion. The
course which he had described was the
only one which he could support, with
justice to his own character, and to the
desire which he should always entertain
of preserving the confidence of his con-
stituents.


Committee of Supply. 1(1
The House having resolved itself into
the committee, lord Palmerston moved,
"That a Supply be granted to his Ma-
jesty."
Mr. Hume hoped that, before any money
was asked for on account of the supply,
the whole of the estimates for the year
would be laid before the House. Nothing
could be more disadvantageous than the
practice of calling for money, and obtain-
ing it, by dribblets, while the House was
in ignorance of what the extent of the
demand would be. He should certainly
oppose any grant, until all the charges for
the year were on the table.
Lord Palmerston said, that the estimates
for the more considerable sources of ex-
pense, the army, navy, and ordnance,
would be upon the table before any vote
was proposed; but some of the less im-
portant accounts, it was impossible to have
ready until a later period in the session.
Mr. Hume saw nothing impossible in
the case, and thought it absolutely neces-
sary that the miscellaneous estimates
should be produced before any money was
voted. These last accounts generally
amounted to two or three millions. If
ever there was a time when it was neces-
sary to adopt a clear mode of proceeding
with regard to the finances, the present
was that moment.
Mr. Maberly said, that the miscellane-
ous estimates had, of late years, arisen to
an alarming height. He therefore hoped,
that as the country had got a new ministry,
every facility would be afforded the House
for watching the progress of these expenses.
He would oppose every grant, until the
whole of the estimates for the year should
be known.
Lord Palmerston said, that the army,
navy, and ordnance estimates, being
founded upon the cost of existing esta-
blishments, were capable of being furnish-
ed early. The miscellaneous estimates,
as there was more information necessary
to calculate them, could not be produced
so soon in the session.
Sir. J. Sebright hoped that the House
would vote no money until the whole of
the estimates were before them. It was
now necessary to look to the expenditure,
not only of every million, but of every shil-
ling of the public money. He pressed
this point the more, because he under-
stood that large expenses had been re-
cently incurred for which there was no
sufficient warrant. He alluded to the





Roman Catholic Land-Tax Bill.


sums which had been laid out in the re-
pairs at Windsor, and in the improvement
of the parks. He had not opposed the
vote for the repairs of Windsor castle ; but
that vote had been limited to a specific
sum. He had heard, that that sum had
been very far exceeded ; and he thought
it fit that the House should know upon
what authority the expense in question had
been undertaken, and to what length it
had extended. He trusted that the House
would try the possibility of producing the
miscellaneous accounts by refusing to vote
any money until they were upon the table.
Mr. G. Dawson said, he was satisfied,
that there was no disposition to withhold
from the House any estimates; and that
the whole would be furnished with all pos-
sible expedition.
Sir J. Sebright expressed his satisfaction
at the assurances thus given. A new ad-
ministration was now commencing its ope-
rations, and it could not do any thing that
would be more satisfactory to the public,
than by promoting inquiry into these sub-
jects. He had not risen with any feeling
of enmity towards the present administra-
tion. It had never been his practice to
enter the ranks of opposition to a govern-
ment; and, on the other hand, he had
never ranged himself as a supporter of any,
except that of the late Mr. Canning.
Then, indeed, he had thought it his duty
to support, as far as he could, an adminis-
tration which he considered likely to be so
beneficial to the country. But it did not
follow that the new administration should
find an opponent in him. Many persons
objected to the duke of Wellington as
rime minister. So far as that appoint-
ment went it had his warmest approba-
tion. One of the objections urged against
the noble duke's fitness for that office was,
that he had passed a great portion of his
life in military service. So far from look-
ing upon that as a disqualifying circum-
stance, he was of opinion that the noble
duke could not have been brought up in a
better school. He had always had great
objects before him to decide upon, and
great interests to consider; and those"
habits of command would qualify him bet-
ter for the leader of an administration,
than a mere acquaintance with the routine
of office. In the noble duke the country
would at least find habits of decision;
which was a point of first-rate considera-
tion in the character of every minister;
and he (sir J. Sebright) doubted not, that


by a sedulous restriction of the expendi-
ture of the country, as far as was con-
sistent, the noble duke would become as
popular a minister, as he already was a
general.
Sir M. W. Ridley said, that the repairs
of Windsor Castle had undoubtedly ex-
ceeded the estimate; but that excess had
not arisen out of change in the original
plan, but from the state of the general
building; which had been found in a con-
dition which could not be foreseen when
the estimate was framed. He believed it
would be fully proved, that no blame
rested upon the commissioners, or upon
the architect.
Sir Joseph Yorke said, it was so much
the object of the hon. member for Aber-
deen to object to a supply being granted
as to have the means of squaring the gene-
ral expenditure of the country with its
income. No doubt it was necessary to
support the army and the navy; and there
were some extras which it was equally
necessary to support; but he hoped the new
government would set to work, and take
care, while they supported what was right,
to lop off what was superfluous and extra-
vagant. He could not agree with the hon.
baronet who was so pleased that they had
got a military man to reign over them.
He had rather it had been some one else.
It was quite a choaker to him. He had
no doubt as to the noble duke's decision
of character, and that he would be able to
keep the cabinet in good order [a laugh] ;
and he wished his noble relation had had
a little of the same sort of spunk. Still
he did not feel the military school the best
school for a statesman. Nevertheless, if
the noble duke laid by his habits of the
sword a little he might make a good and a
popular minister. As for his not being in
the habit of making long speeches, he con-
sidered that circumstance a particularly
fortunate one; two thirds of that which
was called eloquence only tended to
blink the question at issue.
The motion was agreed to.

ROMAN CATHOLIC LAND-TAX BILL.]
Mr. George Bankes said, that he rose to ask
leave to bring in a bill, towhich he could an-
ticipate no objection. The question had been
brought before the legislature thirty years
ago, with the intention of remedying the
defect to which his motion now had re-
ference. Last session he had had the
honour of introducing a similar bill to the
E2


FEsB. 1, 1828. 102





103 HOUSE OF COMMONS,


House; and had it not been for the abrupt
termination of the session, he had no doubt
that it would have met with the same suc-
cess in the other House as it had done
n that. But whether or no such would
nave been the case, he had at least a right
to anticipate that there was a feeling in
its favour. He was aware that there were
some difficulties in the way of the mea-
sure, but he did not anticipate that they
would be sufficient to negative the bill;
and he trusted that, by the attention of
parliament, those difficulties might be re-
moved. It was not on his own suggestion,
but of others, that he offered this bill to
the notice of the House; and he requested
to call their attention to the petition which
had been presented from the Roman
Catholics, complaining of the disadvantages
under which they laboured on that ac-
count; and he did so the rather, as the
petition was not only numerously signed,
but likewise by persons of consideration
and consequence, amongst whom were the
names of lords Shrewsbury, Dormer,
Stafford, sir T. Stanley, sir R. Bedding-
field, and others. The law respecting the
land-tax had been passed in the 4th of
William and Mary, in the year 1692;
and the rate imposed by it was 4s. in the
pound on all landed estates throughout
the kingdom, but those who should refuse
to take certain oaths; so that, by this ar-
rangement, the Catholics were burthened,
without any relief being afforded to the
Protestants. The law continued in this
state till the year 1794 ; when it was first
proposed to exempt the Catholics from
this very unjust penalty. But the legisla-
ture, had not rightly considered the origin
of the act; and, therefore, they had not
adopted the proper method of affording
relief. It was not fair that what was
taken off the Catholics should be thrown
upon the rest of the kingdom; and for
that reason, as the land-tax had never
been raised generally on the whole king-
dom, but on divisions of hundreds, which
were made in the time of William, and
were continued to the present day, the
parliament had found itself placed in a
difficulty. The consequence had been,
that it was expressly provided by that act,
that the deficiency should not be thrown
upon the public at large, but confined to
the division in which the reduction took
place. This, however, had been found by
experience to be so embarrassing, that
except in those divisions where fresh lands


had been inclosed, no relief at all was
afforded; and instances had actually oc-
curred, where, a Catholic being possessed
of the whole hundred, it was impossible
that the arrangement could be of any
benefit to him, as there was none but his
own land on which he might throw it. This
act had continued in operation through
1795 and 1796, until the year 1797, when
the Land Tax Redemption act was in-
troduced; and in that a clause had been
inserted, which, it was supposed, would be
adequate to the difficulty : but it had again
been found inefficient. In cases where
the hundreds were charged at more than
4s. in the pound, it was competent to
certain commissioners to reduce the
amount; but this was no benefit to
the Catholics, for there were very few
places in the kingdom where the rate was
so high as 4s. The total sum raised in
king William's time was about two millions;
and as only the same amount was collected
now, it was clear that there was no
necessity for so high a rate as then, as the
value of lands since those times had in-
creased prodigiously; and, consequently,
a rate of from one to two shillings was on
the average sufficient to cover the amount
required. This was the outline of the griev-
ance of which the Roman Catholics com-
plained; and he could not but suppose
that it was a real grievance, as he did not
conceive that so many noblemen and
gentlemen would petition parliament against
an imaginary evil; and if the House, as he
did, believed it to be true, he had no doubt
that it would join with him most cordially
in endeavouring to do away with the in-
justice. Perhaps it would be said, that
the land-tax was unequally raised through-
out the country-that in some places a
rate of one penny or two-pence was re-
quired, and in others a rate of two shillings
from Protestants: he did not deny that
this was the case; but how it had origi-
nated it was not easy to decide. It was
alleged by some, that their ancestors, when
the tax was first proposed, were so loyal
and well-affected towards king William,
that they consented to pay a higher rate
than they need to have done, and felt
pride in contributing more than was neces-
sary; though, perhaps, the reason might
be more fairly found in the fact, that those
counties where the land-tax was most
heavy, were the home counties; which in
those days were richer and better able to
pay than the midland and more northern


Romnan Catholic Land-Tax Bill.






Roman Catholic Land-Tax Bill.


counties, which, compared with what they
are now, were very poor. But, whether
the inequality arose from these or any
other causes, he could not think that, be-
cause the Protestants were not equally
assessed, the Catholics were entitled to no
relief. The principle of the measure he
was about to propose had already been
avowed by parliament; and if it could find
any way of getting rid of the grievance,
he was persuaded the House would do so.
That it was practicable he firmly believed;
and he wished it to be understood, that he
only proposed to relieve those cases where
a specific grievance could be proved : but
it would not answer the purpose of those
whose cause he was then advocating, to
be put back as they had been in 1794; for,
although that bill had proposed to afford
them relief, it had done no such thing. It
was not until the subject had been re-
peatedly pressed upon his notice, that he
consented to undertake the task, but he
felt himself bound to say, that he did so
with unqualified pleasure. The hon. gentle-
man then moved, "That leave be given to
bring in a bill to relieve Roman Catholics
from double assessments to the Land Tax."
Mr. Hume, in seconding the motion,
said, he had heard that the payments of
the family of only one Catholic gentleman,
sir Richard Beddingfield, had amounted,
under this double assessment, to 50,0001.
The act under which the Catholics were
supposed to receive relief in these cases
empowered the commissioners to apportion
the sum thus taken off the lands of the
Catholics, upon the property of other per-
sons in the same township or district. That
course had been successfully followed by
the commissioners, of which an hon.
friend near him (Mr. Hurst) was one, in
the district of Horsham, and he believed
without any inconvenience or complaint;
but, in other parts of the country, from
whence the complaints now came, he had
heard it was impossible to give such relief
under any act which had been passed upon
the subject. The late secretary to the
Treasury, had distinctly declared, when
the government were applied to on the sub-
ject, that no relief could be afforded to the
Catholics which would not produce a loss
to the Treasury to the full amount of that
double land-tax from which the Catholic
might be exempted. So many changes
had taken place, since 1798, in the state
of the property subject to the land-tax;
so much of it had changed possessors; so,


much of it had been redeemed: that any
attempt to spread the burthen of the
double tax upon other parts of the same
district, would be found impossible. Now
that the evil was known, and that it was
evident no remedy existed, the House
must see the propriety of acceding to the
motion.
Mr. Hurst said, he had acted in the
capacity of a commissioner, and had been
enabled to relieve some families who had
been assessed for the double tax from the
time of king William. Great difficulties
at first occurred in throwing the sum upon
any other property; but after a laborious
investigation, the commissioners discovered
lands which had never been taxed at all;
and upon them they imposed the burthen
from which they relieved those who sought
relief under the act. But he apprehended
that great difficulties must attend such
experiments elsewhere ; and as the whole
amount of this double tax was small, he
apprehended there could be no objection
to grant the relief proposed by the bill.
Mr. Curteis said, there had been a
manifest disposition on the part of the
legislature to relieve the Catholics from
this double assessment. The manner in
which a similar measure was suffered to
pass last session, was extremely indecorous.
The House was not aware of the extent of
the sacrifice which this bill required. If,
as he believed, relief was to be had under
the act at present existing, and without any
sacrifice of revenue, he saw no reason why
they should assent to the proposed bill.
Mr. Baring thought, that, if there was
any case in which economical considera-
tions should be disregarded, it was that
which involved in its execution an act
of positive cruelty and injustice. The
House was not only called upon to grant
the boon required upon every principle of
justice, but in accordance with a prin-
ciple recognized by a previous act of
parliament. They were not now called
upon to grant a relief which ought not be
withheld; but they were required to carry
into effect a measure of relief, the necessity
of which has been admitted, and sanction-
ed by act of parliament. The hon. mem-
ber for Sussex had said, that those who
advised this measure had not looked into
the case of the sufferers, and asserted that
the act gave relief in every case where the
Land-tax exceeded 4s. in the pound;
but the fact was, that in many cases the tax
did not amount even to half of that sum,


FEB. 1, 1828.






107 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
and those persons were therefore placed
out of the operation of the relief intended
by the legislature; for their condition
rendered it impossible that they could
make a demand under the provisions of the
act. The bill passed in 1794 was in fact,
no relief at all; and some other measure
ought to be adopted. It might be pro-
posed to throw an additional burthen on
the Protestant landholder in the same
hundred ; but this was equally unjust. He
could see no remedy but that of making
the loss fall on the public at large. Inde-
pendent of the injustice of throwing it on
the Protestants, there were many in-
stances in which the Land-tax had been
redeemed by the greater number of landed
proprietors in certain districts; and if such
a mode of relief were resorted to, the
burthen might fall on one individual. He
could see no remedy but by a sacrifice of
the public income; and, considering the
injustice of the tax, he was sure that every
member would submit to such a step.
Mr. G. Dawson said, that although he
opposed what was called Catholic eman-
cipation, yet none of the reasons which
influenced him upon that question, had
any bearing upon the present. As the
justice of the proposed measure appeared
to be generally admitted, it would not be
necessary for him to say any thing about
it; although he thought that the injustice
of the present system had been overrated.
That injustice could operate only in a few
instances. He believed that, by appealing
to the commissioners, relief might be
obtained; but only by throwing the sur-
charge upon the Protestants. This opera-
tion was doubtless very complicated, from
the many statutes upon the subject, and
from the Land-tax, in the time of Mr. Pitt,
having been made redeemable. The prin-
cipal sufferer was, undoubtedly, sir R. Bed-
dingfield. On his estate there was a parish
where the act might be brought into
operation; but, unfortunately, he was the
owner of the whole parish, and all the in-
habitants were Roman Catholics; so that
there could be no apportionment through
which relief might reach them. He could
see no remedy for the grievance, but an
act which would at once relieve the Catho-
lics, burthening the Protestants of the
same district. The loss to the revenue,
he trusted, would be trifling; but it would
be only an act of justice.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.


Board of Works. 108
BOARD Or WORKS.] Mr. Banks said,
he had a motion to submit to the House,
through which he hoped to be able to
throw some light upon the conduct of the
Board of Works. When the office of
surveyor-general was first instituted, it was
held by sir W. Chambers, but the surveyor-
general not being in these times a pro-
fessional man, he could not exercise that
control over the expenditure of his office,
which it was the intention of parliament to
ensure. Very large sums were lavished
upon works the most tasteless and the
most inconveniently contrived, that it was
possible to imagine, while there seemed to
be no other control over the actions of
the architect than his own whim or caprice.
There were, in fact, three architects whose
power in their respective governments was
as absolute as that of any Roman pretor
in his province. So jealous were these
gentlemen of their authority, that for one
architect to pass the brook or rivulet which
separated his province from that of another,
was an infringement upon the rights and
an insult to the dignity, of his brother
architect, whose province he thus invaded.
The government, therefore, instead of hav-
ing, as was intended, three architects, of
whose united abilities they could avail
themselves, were limited to one, who
never consulted his supposed coadjutors,
and who was perfectly absolute in his own
district. The consequence was, that
gentlemen saw many fine and expensive
buildings, but not one, either well adapted
to the purpose for which it was intended,
or calculated to reflect credit upon the
national taste. In order, if possible, to
ascertain the reason of this failure, he beg-
ged leave to move for an account of the
Salary and Commission grantedto each of
the three Architects attached to the Office
of Works, under Statute of 54 Geo. 3, c.
157, and of the amount of the same, since
the appointment of each of them; and also,
of any payments or allowances made to
each of them during that period, in respect
of any of the Royal Palaces, or other
public Buildings."
Mr. Hume said, that the late chancellor
of the Exchequer, lord Goderich, had
rendered himself responsible for the good
taste of all public buildings in future. On
him the blame ought to fall, and not upon
the surveyor-general, or the architects.
Mr. Bankes did not intend to cast the
slightest blame upon the surveyor-general,
who was highly honourable man, The truth







was, that not being a professional man, he them, by saying that there was no neces-
knew nothing of the business of the office, sity to take notice of the situation of Ire-
and left the whole to the architects. As land? Four millions of people had at-
to the pledge of the chancellor of the Ex- tended those simultaneous meetings, of
chequer upon the subject of taste, all he whom not less than one million were ca-
knew was, that it had not been redeemed, pable of bearing arms. They might make
and he did not think it was a matter of a field-marshal premier-every member
which any chancellor of the Exchequer of the cabinet might be a field-marshal-
ought to take cognizance. but, in his view of the state of the country,
The motion was agreed to. it would give the legislature more dignity
in the eyes of foreign nations, if they gave
HOUSE OF COMMONS. peace and tranquillity to Ireland. The
Protestant Dissenters of England were
Tuesday, February 5. united as one man, in calling for relief
ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.] Mr. A. from civil disabilities; and both the Pro-
Dawson said, he rose to present several testant and the Catholic Dissenters bot-
petitions in favour of Catholic Emancipa- tomed their request for relief on the same
tion, to which he wished to draw the par- ground; namely, that every man had a
ticular attention of the House. The peti- right to worship God according to the dic-
tioners complained that they were, in vio- states of his conscience, and to exercise his
nation of the Treaty of Limerick loaded judgment freely in matters of religion.-
with civil disabilities; and they contended The hon. gentleman concluded, by pre-
for the right to follow the dictates of their senting sundry petitions from Loath, in
consciences, in matters of a religious na- favour of Catholic emancipation.
ture, without thereby incurring any dis- Mr. G. Lamb presented a petition of the
qualification whatever. In reference to same nature from the Roman Catholics of
this subject, he begged leave to state, that Dungarvon. When he last presented a
he, in common with many others, felt con- petition on this subject from his consti-
siderable surprise and disappointment, in tuents, he had expressed a hope that that
consequence of no notice having been would be the last time that they would
taken in his majesty's Speech of the situa- find it necessary to come forward with a
tion of Ireland, or of those feelings on re- similar petition. But he could not now
ligious subjects, which not only agitated cherish any such expectations ; seeing that,
that country, but had obtained ground in since that time, an event had occurred
England. It was said by the noble lord which presented a bulwark against the
opposite, that the omission was of no con- claims of the Roman Catholics; namely,
sequence, as nothing had occurred in Ire- the appointment of a prime minister who
land since the last session that called for was decidedly hostile to their demands.
any mention of that country. But he It was, however, gratifying to him to ob-
would state that this was not the fact; serve, that the Catholics had never re-
for matters of the deepest importance to moved their eyes from the great object
the welfare and happiness of Ireland had which they had held so long in view : it was
occurred since that period. What could pleasing to contemplate the fact, that they
be a more important feature in the history had not slackened their zeal in endeavour-
of Ireland than that with one accord, and ing to attain their just rights; and he
from one extremity of the island to hoped they would continue to pursue the
another, millions of people had assembled same course, until they secured those rights
on the same day, and at the same hour, which belonged to them, as citizens and
for the purpose of respectfully petitioning subjects of a free state.
the legislature for justice ? This, it must Mr. H. V. Stuart presented a similar
be admitted, was a most important event: petition from the Roman Catholics of New-
it showed the fixed determination of one ton Barry. He said, that his constituents,
portion of our empire to press their claims and the Catholics at large, deeply deplored
on the attention of the legislature. If this the change that had taken place in his
were a time of war-if this country were majesty's councils. He begged leave in a
threatened with invasion-would not the few words to explain what his feelings
legislation attend to this call? And, were with respect to the present ministry.
would they now slumber on their posts ? Some there were who thought a ministry
Would they now allow ministers to satisfy ought to be supported, if they enabled the


Roman Catholic Claims.


FrB. 5, 1828. 110





111 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
country to pursue a successful commercial
career; some would give their support to
an able financial ministry; and others
would found their adherence to the minis-
try on the ground of the ability which
they displayed on subjects connected with
our foreign policy. Now, though these
were important considerations, yet they
yielded in his estimation, before the con-
sideration of the conduct which any go-
vernment intended to pursue on the sub-
ject of the emancipation of the Roman Ca-
tholics. He hoped ever to steer his poli-
tical course by that question alone. On
the way in which it was treated would he
form his opinion as to the character of the
ministers of the Crown. Were they the best
financiers, the.most able diplomatists, the
most profound masters of political economy;
were they perfect in every other science that
should distinguish ministers; still, if they
were opposed to the cause of the Roman
Catholics, he should disgrace himself, and
belie his long-formed opinions, if he did
not say that such men, the friends of ex-
clusion and the enemies of civil and re-
ligious liberty, were not fit to govern a
free country. It had been his fortune to
change seats in that House on two occa-
sions; but though he had changed seats,
he had not changed sides or opinions.
The government of the earl of Liverpool
opposed the claims of the Catholics, and
he therefore lifted up his voice against it.
The government of Mr. Canning was de-
cidedly in favour of that measure, and
therefore he thought it to be his duty to
support that government. Those two go-
vernments had passed away, and another
had succeeded. The new government he
mustjudge of by the same test; and having
done so, he felt himself called on to op-
pose it.
Mr. D. W. Harvey wished, when any
gentleman representing a borough or a
county in Ireland rose to present a peti-
tion on this subject, that he would enable
him to collect, if possible, what he had
never yet been able to do with reference to
the Catholic question. After describing,
with an eloquence peculiarly their own, the
distressed situation of their country, those
gentlemen always came to this conclusion,
that there was no other mode of shedding
light on that benighted country, that there
was no other way of restoring tranquillity
to seven or eight millions of people, ex-
cept by granting Catholic emancipation.
If it weFe proved that such was really the


Roman Catholic Claims. 112
state of the case, he would abandon any
particular feelings which he himself enter-
tained on the subject, and concede the
measure. But the statements to which he
had alluded were, he believed, not only
groundless, but pregnant with mischief.
It was desirable that the state of Ireland
should be changed from one of wretched-
ness and horror to one of tranquillity and
happiness : but to say that the concession
of Catholic emancipation was the only
means by which that object could be ef-
fected, was to practise a delusion on the
people whom those gentlemen wished to
serve. The hon. member who spoke last
said, he disdained every qualification in a
ministry, unless that ministry were friendly
to the Catholic claims; he would not sup-
port the present administration in making
any financial reductions, because they
were hostile to those claims. Now, if he
were called on to give his support to an
administration, that support should be
most readily given to men who evinced a
desire to look with a steady, undeviating
eye to the expenditure of the country, for
the purpose of relieving it from the bur-
thens under which it at present groaned.
Mr. Spring Rice said, he had heretofore
cautiously abstained from any discussion
on this question, and he should not have
been induced to take a part in it now, if it
had not been for the extravagant misrepre-
sentation of argument and of reasoning, in
the speech of the hon. gentleman who had
just sat down. If the Irish members could
at all participate in the opinions of that
hon. gentleman, they would forfeit all
claim to the respect of that House. He
would not, however, adopt the hon. mem-
ber's representation of his (Mr. Rice's)
feelings and his arguments; and he was sure
there was not one of the representatives
of Ireland who would not disclaim that
representation, if it were necessary. The
members for Ireland could speak for them-
selves; and if they wanted a mouth-piece,
they certainly would not select the hon.
member for Colchester. There was one
point on which he wished to touch, which
was not important as proceeding from the
hon. member, but which did derive im-
portance from its having been adopted by
other individuals. The hon. member said,
that if it could be proved to him, that the
physical evils which afflicted the people of
Ireland would be removed by granting Ca-
tholic emancipation, he would be willing
to join with the friends of that question,






113 Roman Catholic Claims.
and assist in procuring it. Now, he was
ready to join any hon. gentleman, at any
time, on that particular issue. He would
rest the whole of the argument on that very
point. He was prepared to prove, by ar-
gument and evidence, that the miseries of
that unfortunate country arose out of the
abuses of the law, occasioned, not only
primarily but exclusively, by this pecu-
liar cause. His hon. friend opposite (Mr.
G. Dawson) might differ from him on the
point of granting the claims of the Catho-
lics, but he would agree with him that
there was no one question of greater im-
portance. His hon. friend might advocate
positive resistance to those claims, but still
they both agreed, that the question was
one of the utmost importance. Neither
was the subject unconnected with financial
economy in Ireland. By doing justice in
that country-by reducing the establish-
ment-by altering the tithe-system-they
would produce retrenchment. Thatwould
be a large, a wise, a liberal, economy,
although the honourable member for Col-
chester might take a different view of the
question. The hon. member for Colchester
said, he would come down early and late to
support a system of economy. The hon.
member would, perhaps, vote for some
miserable reduction, by which the country
would not bebenefitted. Principles, such
as the hon. member had thrown out, ren-
dered it necessary, in 1798, to keep up an
establishment of a hundred thousand men
-a larger army than the duke of Welling-
ton commanded on the continent of Eu-
rope-and to raise by loan (the interest of
which they were now obliged to pay) the
sum of ten millions, over and above the
ordinary supplies. If a different policy
had been pursued, this army of a hundred
thousand might have been spared-this
loan of ten millions would have been ren-
dered unnecessary. Such was his idea of
economy, in contradistinction to that of the
hon. member-an economy connected with
higher feelings, and better views, than the
narrow economy of that hon. gentleman.
He called on the House to go on in the
work of justice with respect to the Roman
Catholics; and he trusted, when their case
came to be argued, that the legislature
would take the representatives of Ireland
as witnesses or advocates, rather than the
hon. member for Colchester.
Ordered to lie on the table.


FEB. 6, 1828. 114
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 6.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.] Major-
general King, in rising to present a peti-
tion from the Roman Catholics of a parish
in the county of Sligo, said :-Although I
differ totally from the petitioners as to
their prayer, which is for the removal of
the civil disabilities imposed on them, I
feel it to be my duty to state that the
petition is properly worded and respecta-
bly signed. In moving that it be brought
up, as I am one of those members who
have been denounced by an illegal associa-
tion, acting in the name of the Roman
Catholics of Ireland, as an enemy to my
country, because we give our support to
the present government, I am desirous
most clearly to state, that I will never be
intimidated by any menace from any body
of men belonging to any party, from fol-
lowing the line of duty my conscience
may point out to me. In the present head
of the government I place the utmost con-
fidence. I am convinced the noble duke
will be as tenacious of the rights and liber-
ties of his country in the cabinet, as he
was of its safety and honour in the field.
I feel a degree of pride in recollecting that
I was witness of his exertions in that theatre
of glory. It is with gratification I refer to
the brilliant period when I was serving
under him, and saw with admiration, the
zeal and ability which he displayed. I
feel convinced that, in the situation in
which he is now placed, he will show an
equal degree of attention to all the duties
which, in peace and tranquillity, are re-
quired from him, as the first minister of the
country, as he did in carrying into effect
the energetic measures by which he in-
sured its safety and independence. I can-
not accede to the opinion I have heard
stated in this House, that the distress
which exists in Ireland ought to be attri-
buted to the exclusion of the Catholics
from political power. I think that to very
different causes it should be assigned. It
is absurd to suppose that the violation of
the Treaty of Limerick, admitting all that
the petitioners say on this head to be cor-
rect, could have any effect, at the end of
a hundred and forty years, in producing
the aggravated distresses which afflict that
country. Nor do I believe that the ad-
mission of the Catholics to political power
would have the least tendency to ameli-
orate the condition of the Irish, or adb







was, that not being a professional man, he them, by saying that there was no neces-
knew nothing of the business of the office, sity to take notice of the situation of Ire-
and left the whole to the architects. As land? Four millions of people had at-
to the pledge of the chancellor of the Ex- tended those simultaneous meetings, of
chequer upon the subject of taste, all he whom not less than one million were ca-
knew was, that it had not been redeemed, pable of bearing arms. They might make
and he did not think it was a matter of a field-marshal premier-every member
which any chancellor of the Exchequer of the cabinet might be a field-marshal-
ought to take cognizance. but, in his view of the state of the country,
The motion was agreed to. it would give the legislature more dignity
in the eyes of foreign nations, if they gave
HOUSE OF COMMONS. peace and tranquillity to Ireland. The
Protestant Dissenters of England were
Tuesday, February 5. united as one man, in calling for relief
ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.] Mr. A. from civil disabilities; and both the Pro-
Dawson said, he rose to present several testant and the Catholic Dissenters bot-
petitions in favour of Catholic Emancipa- tomed their request for relief on the same
tion, to which he wished to draw the par- ground; namely, that every man had a
ticular attention of the House. The peti- right to worship God according to the dic-
tioners complained that they were, in vio- states of his conscience, and to exercise his
nation of the Treaty of Limerick loaded judgment freely in matters of religion.-
with civil disabilities; and they contended The hon. gentleman concluded, by pre-
for the right to follow the dictates of their senting sundry petitions from Loath, in
consciences, in matters of a religious na- favour of Catholic emancipation.
ture, without thereby incurring any dis- Mr. G. Lamb presented a petition of the
qualification whatever. In reference to same nature from the Roman Catholics of
this subject, he begged leave to state, that Dungarvon. When he last presented a
he, in common with many others, felt con- petition on this subject from his consti-
siderable surprise and disappointment, in tuents, he had expressed a hope that that
consequence of no notice having been would be the last time that they would
taken in his majesty's Speech of the situa- find it necessary to come forward with a
tion of Ireland, or of those feelings on re- similar petition. But he could not now
ligious subjects, which not only agitated cherish any such expectations ; seeing that,
that country, but had obtained ground in since that time, an event had occurred
England. It was said by the noble lord which presented a bulwark against the
opposite, that the omission was of no con- claims of the Roman Catholics; namely,
sequence, as nothing had occurred in Ire- the appointment of a prime minister who
land since the last session that called for was decidedly hostile to their demands.
any mention of that country. But he It was, however, gratifying to him to ob-
would state that this was not the fact; serve, that the Catholics had never re-
for matters of the deepest importance to moved their eyes from the great object
the welfare and happiness of Ireland had which they had held so long in view : it was
occurred since that period. What could pleasing to contemplate the fact, that they
be a more important feature in the history had not slackened their zeal in endeavour-
of Ireland than that with one accord, and ing to attain their just rights; and he
from one extremity of the island to hoped they would continue to pursue the
another, millions of people had assembled same course, until they secured those rights
on the same day, and at the same hour, which belonged to them, as citizens and
for the purpose of respectfully petitioning subjects of a free state.
the legislature for justice ? This, it must Mr. H. V. Stuart presented a similar
be admitted, was a most important event: petition from the Roman Catholics of New-
it showed the fixed determination of one ton Barry. He said, that his constituents,
portion of our empire to press their claims and the Catholics at large, deeply deplored
on the attention of the legislature. If this the change that had taken place in his
were a time of war-if this country were majesty's councils. He begged leave in a
threatened with invasion-would not the few words to explain what his feelings
legislation attend to this call? And, were with respect to the present ministry.
would they now slumber on their posts ? Some there were who thought a ministry
Would they now allow ministers to satisfy ought to be supported, if they enabled the


Roman Catholic Claims.


FrB. 5, 1828. 110






115 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
vance their civilization. I by no means
deny the natural powers of that country,
if they were rightly directed: but I must
give my decided negative to the assertions
that are continually made as to the in-
crease of population at the astounding
rate at which it is estimated by some gen-
tlemen. We hear of millions added, al-
most every session, to that population.
We have heard, that the places of worship
are not sufficient to contain the Catholics
ef Ireland; but last night we were told,
that no less than four millions assembled
simultaneously in those places of worship,
to prepare petitions to the legislature. If,
then, there be accommodation to that ex-
tent, can there be any foundation for the
complaint, that the Catholics are in want
of chapels wherein to perform their reli-
gious duties ? I have also heard a state-
ment still more extraordinary, and which
seemed to me only calculated to influence
the votes of members through fear;
namely, that one million out of the four
are capable of bearing arms. I leave that
question to be decided by others; but
why, I ask, was the allusion made ? Was
it not to gain by intimidation and menace,
*hat there was no chance of obtaining by
fair argument ? I am as much disposed
as any man to acknowledge the right of
every person to judge for himself in mat-
ters of religion. I am as earnestly as any
man the advocate of civil and religious
liberty. Man has a right to judge for
himself, but no man has a right to dictate
to others. That is my creed. What I
ask for myself, I am ready to concede to
others. I am surprised, I confess, at the
arrogant manner in which some honoura-
ble gentlemen deny to those who differ
from them on this question, almost the
right of expressing their opinions. I see
them rise Fire in their eyes, and papers
in their hands," and denounce all who
dare to question their authority. As to
the menaces that are thrown out against
those who are opposed to the Catholic
claims, I am not one who can be induced
to give my vote contrary to my conscience,
from any interested views. I will adhere to
the course I have pursued for upwards of half
a century. I will support the Protestant
constitution which has been the preservative
of our liberties and rights. Every artifice is
used to influence the votes of members.
I have heard insinuations, that unless I
became a convert to the Catholic question,
I should never again sit for the county I


Romzait Catholic Claims. 116
have the honour to represent. But I will
not sacrifice one item of my principles.
If not only the representation bit the fee-
simple of the whole county depended oh
my vote, I would not desert my principles.
Whatever may befal me, at least, I will
not deprive myself of the consolation of
having, under all circumstances, done
what I conceived to be my duty tomy king,
and my country.
Sir John Brydges said, he was desirous
of taking that opportunity of making a
few observations. He would, in the first
place, state, that he was as much opposed
to the measure of Catholic emancipation,
as ever. Nay, his opposition was strength-
ened by all that he had lately witnessed.
He alluded particularly to the declaration
of the Catholic Association, that every
member of parliament should be considered
an enemy to Ireland who supported the
present administration. He agreed with
the hotn member for Colchester, that
emancipation, as it was called, would not
tend to the establishment of tranquillity
in Ireland. Let the population have em-
ployment, and that would have a tendency
to fill their pockets and make them satis-
fied. He was at a loss to divine why all
these petitions were presented at this time.
He could only account for it by supposing,
either that since last session some new
circumstances of importance had occurred
in Ireland, or that those who advocated
the cause of the Catholics derived their
principles from the position of the seats
they possessed. Last year, after they had
obtained office, they made no effort for
the Catholics. Now they were out of
office, they were beyond measure anxious
for the immediate success of the measure.
With regard to the present administration,
he was glad that the duke of Wellington
was at the head of it, and he would give
it his utmost support, thoroughly believing
that it would uphold the best interests of
the country.
Mr. Leycester expressed his regret, that
the command of the army and the situa-
tion of First Lord of the Treasury should
be united in the same individual. He
could not very well imagine how the duke
of Wellington could wean himself from his
long-acquired military habits and avoca-
tions. He did not think that a military
life was the best school for rearing up a
constitutional minister. What was, or
ought to be, the attributes of a constitu-
tional minister ? He ought to have a deep






113 Roman Catholic Claims.
and assist in procuring it. Now, he was
ready to join any hon. gentleman, at any
time, on that particular issue. He would
rest the whole of the argument on that very
point. He was prepared to prove, by ar-
gument and evidence, that the miseries of
that unfortunate country arose out of the
abuses of the law, occasioned, not only
primarily but exclusively, by this pecu-
liar cause. His hon. friend opposite (Mr.
G. Dawson) might differ from him on the
point of granting the claims of the Catho-
lics, but he would agree with him that
there was no one question of greater im-
portance. His hon. friend might advocate
positive resistance to those claims, but still
they both agreed, that the question was
one of the utmost importance. Neither
was the subject unconnected with financial
economy in Ireland. By doing justice in
that country-by reducing the establish-
ment-by altering the tithe-system-they
would produce retrenchment. Thatwould
be a large, a wise, a liberal, economy,
although the honourable member for Col-
chester might take a different view of the
question. The hon. member for Colchester
said, he would come down early and late to
support a system of economy. The hon.
member would, perhaps, vote for some
miserable reduction, by which the country
would not bebenefitted. Principles, such
as the hon. member had thrown out, ren-
dered it necessary, in 1798, to keep up an
establishment of a hundred thousand men
-a larger army than the duke of Welling-
ton commanded on the continent of Eu-
rope-and to raise by loan (the interest of
which they were now obliged to pay) the
sum of ten millions, over and above the
ordinary supplies. If a different policy
had been pursued, this army of a hundred
thousand might have been spared-this
loan of ten millions would have been ren-
dered unnecessary. Such was his idea of
economy, in contradistinction to that of the
hon. member-an economy connected with
higher feelings, and better views, than the
narrow economy of that hon. gentleman.
He called on the House to go on in the
work of justice with respect to the Roman
Catholics; and he trusted, when their case
came to be argued, that the legislature
would take the representatives of Ireland
as witnesses or advocates, rather than the
hon. member for Colchester.
Ordered to lie on the table.


FEB. 6, 1828. 114
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 6.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.] Major-
general King, in rising to present a peti-
tion from the Roman Catholics of a parish
in the county of Sligo, said :-Although I
differ totally from the petitioners as to
their prayer, which is for the removal of
the civil disabilities imposed on them, I
feel it to be my duty to state that the
petition is properly worded and respecta-
bly signed. In moving that it be brought
up, as I am one of those members who
have been denounced by an illegal associa-
tion, acting in the name of the Roman
Catholics of Ireland, as an enemy to my
country, because we give our support to
the present government, I am desirous
most clearly to state, that I will never be
intimidated by any menace from any body
of men belonging to any party, from fol-
lowing the line of duty my conscience
may point out to me. In the present head
of the government I place the utmost con-
fidence. I am convinced the noble duke
will be as tenacious of the rights and liber-
ties of his country in the cabinet, as he
was of its safety and honour in the field.
I feel a degree of pride in recollecting that
I was witness of his exertions in that theatre
of glory. It is with gratification I refer to
the brilliant period when I was serving
under him, and saw with admiration, the
zeal and ability which he displayed. I
feel convinced that, in the situation in
which he is now placed, he will show an
equal degree of attention to all the duties
which, in peace and tranquillity, are re-
quired from him, as the first minister of the
country, as he did in carrying into effect
the energetic measures by which he in-
sured its safety and independence. I can-
not accede to the opinion I have heard
stated in this House, that the distress
which exists in Ireland ought to be attri-
buted to the exclusion of the Catholics
from political power. I think that to very
different causes it should be assigned. It
is absurd to suppose that the violation of
the Treaty of Limerick, admitting all that
the petitioners say on this head to be cor-
rect, could have any effect, at the end of
a hundred and forty years, in producing
the aggravated distresses which afflict that
country. Nor do I believe that the ad-
mission of the Catholics to political power
would have the least tendency to ameli-
orate the condition of the Irish, or adb







knowledge of the art of government; he anxious to earn by the sweat of their
ought to be able impartially to investigate brow. By thus preventing the exertions
arguments on questions of state policy; of industry, he would bring down on this
he ought to be always ready to enter into country the dreadful visitation of Irish
a candid consideration of passing circum- poverty. Every steam-boat brought over
stances; and, above all, he ought to feel ragged regiments of starving Irishmen.
an anxious desire to promote the liberties Paupers innumerable were thrown on the
of the country. Whether the duke of different parishes, ruining the comforts
Wellington possessed these qualities, time and morals of the population of England.
would determine. But it was said, that Thus it was, that Ireland was hourly
the noble duke was sure to bring decision aggravating the burthen of the poor-rates
into the cabinet. Now, he believed that of this country--thus it was that she was
military decision and political decision waging war against England. The rags
were two very different things. That the of Ireland were her resources-the poverty
duke of Wellington had displayed military of Ireland was her sharp sword-her
decision could not be doubted, otherwise pauper multitudes formed her avenging
he could not have covered himself and his army:-
country with glory, as he had done. But, "Nos savior armis
where was his political decision? What Pauperies urget miseramque ulciscitur." Erin.
was his conduct on the corn-bill last year ? Let gentlemen go to the parishes of St.
In the first instance, he supported it; and Giles's, St. Mary-la-bonne, and St. George,
he afterwards defeated it, by throwing out Hanover-square, and they would find the
the principal clause. Let the House look poor-rates doubled since last year, by the
to the treaty of Petersburgh. A more necessity of granting occasional relief to
puerile, weak, and indecisive document the starving Irish. He wished the people
than the noble duke's protocol never ex- of England to know this. He wished his
isted. Again, let the House look at the voice could reach throughout the land,
king's Speech. Was that, he asked, a that all might be taught to feel, that unless
specimen of decision? Some persons Catholic emancipation was granted, the
thought that that Speech indicated a population of this country would be ruined,
desire of adhesion to the treaty of July that the poor-rates would be doubled, and
last; but others were of opinion, that it that no diminution of taxation could
was framed with a cautious design to back possibly take place.
out of that treaty. Then the epithet Sir J. Newport said, that as the gallant
" untoward," which occurred in that general had gone through, and commented
Speech, and which had been so much upon, the whole of the petition, he deemed
talked of, appeared to him to be extremely it necessary to offer a few words. He did
equivocal. It hints a fault, and hesitates not quarrel with the panegyric which the
dislike." It was any thing but decisive, gallant general had pronounced on the
Not only was that epithet an awkward, duke of Wellington: he himself admired,
but an unjust one. So far from the battle as much as any man, the great military
of Navarino being an untoward" event, talents of that distinguished personage.
he considered it as a most toward event. But he would ask, did the duke of Wel-
If pacification should be established, it lington's naval renown entitle him to
would be very much owing to the victory general confidence as a civil minister?
of Navarino. It might be supposed, after Military and political abilities were distinct
what he had said, that he looked upon the things, and were very seldom united. An
duke of Wellington's military education, hon. baronet had asked, whether any
and his military life, as not fitting him for thing had occurred since last year to make
the situation of prime minister. But he this show of petitions necessary ? The
had another powerful objection. The fact was, that they grew out of the cir-
noble duke was an anti-Catholic, and cumstance of that House not having done
would use his influence to prevent Catho- that act of justice, without which they
lic emancipation. By so doing, he would would constantly be receiving petitions
prevent capital from flowing into Ireland from Ireland. And God forbid that it
-by so doing, he would prevent the em- should be otherwise for if the people did
ployment of its active and industrious not, by petitioning, show that they had
population-by so doing, he would de- confidence in that House, it would be the
prive them of the food which they were most fatal day that was ever known for


Roman Catholiic Claims.


FEB. 6, 1828. 118






119 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
this country. It was said, that the misery
of Ireland arose, not from the refusal of
Catholic emancipation, but from other
causes. He, however, thought it might all
be traced to that source-the prevailing
system of exclusion: and he was perfectly
sure, that, until equal rights were extended
to all the people of Ireland, tranquillity
would not be established in that country,
nor could there be safety and security for
the British empire. This measure could
not immediately remove all those evils
which had been the growth of centuries;
but he would say, that if they were to be
removed, the measure to effect that object
must be founded on this basis, or the
relief would be inefficient. From day to
day, the people of Ireland were making
war-in the only way in which they could
make war-on this country, by throwing
an immense burthen upon its finances.
During a long course of years, he had
attentively considered this subject, and he
was more and more convinced, that there
would be no tranquillity for Ireland, or
safety for the British empire, until this act
of strict justice was done.
Sir T. Lethbridge said, that his gallant
friend who had introduced the petition, had
stated, in a plain and manly manner, the
reasonwhy he dissented from the prayer of it.
The House ought to thank him for the course
which he had taken, especially as he was
one of the persons denounced by a self-
elected and unconstitutional body. That
body had gone to such a length as had
never been pursued by any other set of
persons. The Catholic Association had
assumed, contrary to law, all the power
and authority of a legislative body. It
not only commanded the population of
every parish in Ireland, but it also com-
manded the pockets of that population.
The Association had long been in the ha-
bit of receiving a weekly sum, called the
Rent." For what that money was collected,
and who had the authority of disposing of
it, did not clearly appear. But the time,
he believed, was not far distant, when
those sums of money would be appro-
priated in a way which that House and
the country would not readily submit to.
Those who supported the claims of the
Catholics in that House, if they had any
love for consistency, and for the constitu-
tion, ought to take their stand now, and
declare, that until this illegal body was
put down, and prevented from bullying
the empire, they would not press the


Roman Catholic Claims. 120
claims of the Catholics. If such a system
of intimidation was continued, he feared
there would be few members, who, like
his gallant friend, would come forward and
give an unbiassed vote on this question.
The friends of the Catholics ought there-
fore to tell this unconstitutional body, that
they were taking steps destructive to their
cause. These frightful denunciations, it
should be observed, did not come from a
powerless body, but from those who might
be said to have the rule of Ireland. They
had denounced all those who should sup-
port an administration, at the head of
which was the duke of Wellington; or
any administration formed on similar
principles. This was highly unconsti-
tutional, and he trusted that parliament
would not legislate on this question, until
these denunciations were withdrawn. Hav-
ing named the duke of Wellington, he
thought he could not do better than say,
that he entertained the highest confidence
that his administration would be fraught
with signal advantages to his country.
Whatever the tone of his majesty's Speech
might have been-and he did not approve
of the whole of it-he felt confident that
the honour, dignity, and fair fame of the
British character would be better preserved
by the policy which the duke of Welling-
ton would pursue, than by that which had
been adopted by the late short-lived admi-
nistration, which had been described by
the hon. baronet, the member for West-
minster (sir F. Burdett), as having tumbled
to pieces in consequence of its own diffi-
dence; but which, he thought, had
tumbled to pieces from its own weakness
and imbecility. That administration had
not lived long enough to do much mischief;
but he certainly never recollected one so
inefficient and imbecile. The great states-
man now no more could not, as I then
predicted, with all his foresight and tact,
have kept together, for two years, such a
mass of heterogeneous materials. If his
great talents could not effect that object,
where was there any one in the late admi-
nistration capable of achieving it? The
result had proved the truth of the pro-
phecies uttered in that House during the
last session.
Mr. Spring Rice observed, that the hon.
member for Somersetshire was undoubtedly
one of the most downright, straightforward
opponents of Catholic emancipation; so
much so, that he would consider the hon.
baronet as the embodied spirit of the whole





121 Roman Catholic Claims.
of those who were hostile to the Catholic
claims, and, thanking him for his candour,
he would deal with him and his opinions
with the utmost possible respect. He
could not, however, carry his notion of
respect for him and for the gallant general
so far, as to give them credit for being
very profound judges of the law; and yet
great part of the speeches of the gallant
general and of the hon. member had gone
to that point-that a certain association in
Ireland was an illegal association, and that
so long as it existed, the House ought to
refuse the claims of the Roman Catholics.
There were, however, stronger opinions on
the case, than either that of the gallant
general or of the hon. baronet-opinions
which had been given within the last two
years. The first witness he would call
to prove the legality of this Association
was the present Secretary of State for the
Home Department. He had been in that
situation for two years, and during that
time, he was in constant connexion with
Ireland; and assuredly, if that Association
was illegal, it was the duty of that right
hon. gentleman to put it down, and to
punish the violators of the law. His next
witness was the late lord chancellor Man-
ners. Would that learned lord, living in
Dublin, and reading the reports of the
proceedings of the Association daily-
would he, if it had been illegal, have sanc-
tioned it by his tacit acquiescence ? The
argument, then, of the gallant general and
of the hon. baronet was not sustained
either by law or facts. He must say this, in
support of what was called the Protestant
government, who had suffered the Associa-
tion to exist; and he must give his distinct
and decided negative to whatwas advanced
on the other side. In what was it illegal ?
In giving instructions to their representa-
tives ? Was that illegal ? Was it main-
tained that the Catholics could not meet
to discuss their grievances without a breach
of the law? The hon. baronet, when the
Corn-laws and agricultural distress were
the topics of the day, brought up in-
numerable petitions, formed committees,
and disseminated documents, on that sub-
ject. The difference between the two pro-
ceedings consisted merely in the nature of
the object of each party. The hon. baro-
net had his committee sitting in Palace-
yard; the Roman Catholics had theirs sit-
ting in Dublin. On the one hand there
was Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Shiel; on
the other, the hon. baronet and Mr.


FEB. 6, 1828. 122
Webb Hall. In point of law, he could
not see the difference between the two
meetings.-He hoped that neither of the
hon. members would suppose that he was
the advocate of the Association. He de-
precated it from the bottom of his heart.
It was pregnant with danger; it tended to
the separation of the countries; it pro-
duced disturbance, and was calculated to
do mischief, in every possible way. This
was no new language of his. He had held
the same language when that absurd act
was in progress, which, from the nature of
their observations, the gallant general and
the hon. baronet seem to wish to have re-
newed. But, if the government attempted
to re-enact it, he believed they would find
it difficult to carry their purpose into ef-
fect. He wished to put down the Asso-
ciation; he wished to put down agitators;
he wished to put down demagogues, whe-
ther agricultural in Palace-yard, or Roman
Catholic in Dublin. But, could the Asso-
ciation be put down by legal enactments?
The experiment was tried, and it had
failed. Two of the wisest lawyers had
framed an act, which it was hoped would
throw a net over the Association, and
hold it in its iron grasp for ever. That
engine, however, proved useless; and, if
another were forged, it would also be
broken to shatters. They could not effect
their object, unless by the prohibition of
reading, writing, meeting, speaking, and
thinking. But, if they went ever so far,
there would still be that left which their
power could not reach-they could not
prohibit thinking; and if they left the
feeling deep and sore; if they left the
heart ulcerated; he must be a man of lit-
tle judgment, he could little know the hu-
man mind, he could have reflected or felt
little himself, who did not perceive, that
such a state of things was full of danger to
the state.-It had been suggested, that
there had been a disinclination on the
part of the friends of the Catholic ques-
tion to press it during the present session.
This charge was, as regarded himself and
his friends, entirely void of foundation;
and they would be unworthy of their seats
in that House, if it were not so. He
would appeal to the whole House, whe-
ther the conduct of the party with which
he acted had not been uniformly the
same, whether in office or out of it? His
feeling upon the petition presented to the
House would have been exactly the same,
had he sat on the opposite benches when





123 HOUSE OF COMMONS,


it appeared, as it was at present. The citation, and then detail his reasons for
question, indeed, of Catholic emancipation thinking that the prayer of the petition
was too large, and too pressing a one, to ought to be rejected. He was not so
be made a question of party. God forbid much surprised at the gallant officer, as
that there should be a man in that House, at the sentiments expressed by the hon.
far less a member connected with Ireland, baronet; who had said, that gentlemen on
who could make any question in which presenting petitions, on that side of the
the peace of that country was concerned, House, ought to abstain from any obser-
the ieans of annoying an administration, nations upon their merits. The hon. ba-
or acquiring for himself a transient popu- ronet's principle would go to the extent,
clarity! It had been urged by those who that no gentleman ought to present a
opposed emancipation, that the remedy petition, unless he was an enemy to the
for the evils of Ireland was employment, question; for he recommended gentlemen
Iut, as long as this grievance remained in to imitate the example of the gallant
issue, employment would produce fresh officer, which was neither more nor less
opposition, and fresh resistance, rather than telling the House, that the prayer
than peace. The Catholics might be si- of the petitions which they presented
lept, who were now oppressed and bound ought not to be granted. For himself, he
down by poverty; but, the instant they was as satisfied as he was of his own ex-
gained ease or riches, they would only istence, that there was no other means of
swell the cry that clamoured for a restitu- restoring tranquillity to Ireland, than by
tion of their rights. Reports were abroad, granting the relief sought for. He hoped
that the present ministers were to be neu- that measures would soon be taken to
trial upon the Catholic question-that the tranquillize that country, and that things
administration had been formed upon the would not be suffered to go the length of
understanding that they were to be so. furnishing an additional proof, that no-
The question would shortly come before thing would be granted but in times of
the House; which would then have an op- panic and dismay. He was quite certain,
portunity of judging whether this neu- that the prayer of the petition must ulti-
trality was real or affected. For himself, mately be granted; and his wish, hope,
he stood there disposed to serve the coun- and advice, were, that such concessions
try as far as he could. Hewould support might be granted while it could be done
the new administration in any measures with honour, and that the government
which he believed likely to tend to the would not wait for the day of terror and
common advantage; and after this decla- humiliation.
ration, his voice, perhaps, would have Ordered to lie on the table.
more weight in resisting those of a con-
trary character, than if it were supposed CORPORATION AND TEST ACTS.] Mr.
that he had fixed himself in downright, W. Smith presented a petition from the
uncompromising opposition. He was Roman Catholic inhabitants of Kilmain,
ready to acquiesce in the convenience of praying for Catholic Emancipation. He
making as few observations as possible on begged to embrace that opportunity of
the presenting of petitions ; but if obser- disclaiming, on the part of the Dissenters
nations were made on such occasions hos- of England, any junction with the Roman
tile to the interests of the petitioners, their Catholics of Ireland; and, at the same
friends would be negligent of their duty if time, distinctly to disavow any hostility,
they were not always prepared to meet on their part, to the claims of the latter.
them. An incautious and unauthorized para-
Mr. Fergusson said, he had been hither- graph had found its way into the news-
to silent on the question of Catholic eman- papers, which had created the supposition
cipation, and would not now have ad- now contradicted by him. For himself,
dressed the House had not a scene been he had voted in favour of that question on
exhibited, which, though he had not much every occasion; and he should continue
experience as a member of that House, he to do so. But with respect to the Dis-
believed to be rare in the discussion of senters, their case had been under consi-
any question. The House had heard the deration, and they had been advised by
gallant officer, in presenting the petition, their friends to stand on a different ground
repel the attacks which he conceived di- from the Catholics. The position in which
reacted against him by the Catholic Asso- the two parties were placed was, in fact,


Corporartion anti Test Acts.





Arrestsfor Debt on Mesne Process.


the same. The grand argument of both
was, that no man's civil and religious li-
berties ought to be kept separate ; yet as,
owing to circumstances, the case of the
Dissenters was peculiar, it was thought
better that they should keep apart from
the Catholics. But, whether carried sepa-
rately or in union, it was his settled opi-
nion, that the success of both was essential
to the safety and well-being of the state.
Ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. Denison presented a similar peti-
tion from Clapham. One third of the
subscribers thereto were, he said, members
of the church of England, and amongst
them was a clergyman of that church.
The hon. member for Norwich had stated,
that the Dissenters were unwilling to make
common cause with the Catholics. Whe-
ther they were right or wrong in so doing,
he would not give an opinion; but he was
quite sure that the whole kingdom ought
to unite hand and heart, in endeavouring
to obtain a repeal of the Test and Corpo-
ration acts, and of all penal restrictions
upon religious liberty. There could be
neither tranquillity in Ireland nor safety
to England until the point was carried;
and he entirely agreed with the hon. mem-
ber who had said, that the House should
grant it while it would be received as a
boon, instead of waiting until it should
be extorted from them in a moment of
danger.
Ordered to lie on the table.

ARRESTS FOR DEBT ON MESNE Pno--
CEss.] Mr. Hume said, that he had, last
session, submitted to the House several mo-
tions on the subject of the Law of Arrest.
In consequence of the magnitude of the
evil which arose to individuals by their
being deprived of their liberty for debt, he
had then submitted two bills, for the pur-
pose of doing away with arrest altogether,
and giving to the creditor a claim on the
property of the debtor. He had not found-
ed those bills on any vague or theoretical
idea, as had been insinuated, but on the
custom and practice that had existed for
centuries in Scotland and in other coun-
tries; where, so far from any danger or
inconvenience having arisen from such a
course, it had been found to produce a
most beneficial effect. The result had
proved, that there was much more of debt
recovered in Scotland than in England,
from those who were insolvent: he believed


he might say, that the proportion was as
great as ten to one. The creditor there
had no power to arrest his debtor, until a
verdict had been obtained before a judge,
and until the debt had been proved to be due.
In England, on the contrary, a person of
the worst character was allowed to depose
to a debt on oath, against any individual
whom he might think proper to select,
with the exception of members of parlia-
ment and peers. Every man, he thought,
must be anxious to put down a species of
oppression, which placed a power in hands
where it had been so much abused. The
practice in England, in many respects,
was very contradictory. Men were roused
in an instant if a justice of peace, by mis-
take, or for trespass, imprisoned a man, if
it were only for a few hours. The daily
press, as it ought to do, instantly raised
an outcry against the offender, holding
him up to public notice; yet, all this
time, thousands were deprived of their
liberty, and thrown into prison, without
any inquiry. He therefore said, that the
whole system of mesne process, as it
was called, was most harassing, and
that it was a blot on the country. The
subject ought to be protected against such
a grievous hardship; and as payment could
not be obtained by confining the body
within the bare walls of a prison, recourse
should be had to the effects of the debtor.
Acts of the greatest cruelty and injustice
were constantly committed in consequence
of this law. Thousands of individuals
were yearly arrested; some out of spite;
others from having had a quarrel with
their creditor; and all without the least
inquiry, as to the character of the indi-
vidual upon whose simple oath they were

committed, first into the hands of a sheriff's
officer, and then to the cells of a prison.
In Scotland, such could not take place;
and even in some of the English colonies
abroad, no such proceeding was recog-
nised. [In Canada, a man could not be
arrested, unless a magistrate was satisfied
on oath that he was about to leave the
country, and then he was only called on to
give security that he would not leave the
country. In France, Spain, Holland, and
most of the continental states, the laws
were more favourable for the debtor, and
generally counteracted the malice or re-
venge of the creditor. Last session he
had proposed a remedy, which was object-
ed to by the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, now absent from the


FEB. 6, 1828. 126





State of the Courts of Common Law. 128


House. His object was to lay before the
country the evils produced by the present
system. The hon. member then proceeded
to read, from the returns upon the table of
the House, the number of persons then
confined in the different prisons, and con-
tended, that it was clear from those returns,
that arrests effected any thing but the
proposed end; namely, the payment of
debts. It was absurd to suppose that
confining a man within the walls of a
prison wasthe way to makehim payhis debts.
On the contrary, it prevented all possibility
of his doing so, because it precluded all
possibility of his exercising the calling by
which he had been accustomed to gain a
livelihood. A glaring instance of the folly
of this proceeding was the case of Mr.
Haydon, the artist, who was prevented by
imprisonment from exercising his profes-
sion, for whom a subscription was entered
into, and who, at a public meeting, had
showed how short-sighted were the persons
who had placed him in such a situation.
He thought the subject, in every point of
view, so important, that should it not be
included in the motion which his learned
friend, the member for Winchelsea, was
to bring forward to-morrow, he would
move for a select committee to inquire into
it. He would now move, That there be
laid before the House, a Return of the
number of Prisoners committed to the
King's Bench, Fleet, Whitecross-street,
Marshalsea, andHorsemonger-lane Prisons,
in 1827; distinguishing those in custody
under Mesne Process, or under Judgments
Recovered, or for Costs of Suits; stating
how many for sums above 1001., between
501. and 1001., between 501. and 201., and
sums under 201. (excluding Crown
Debtors); stating also the number in cus-
tody in each of those Prisons on 1st
January, 1828." Also, A Return of the
number of Warrants granted to arrest for
Debt by the Sheriffs of London and Mid-
dlesex, and by the Sheriff of Surrey, and
the number of Bailable Processes executed
by them in the year 1827."-Ordered.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 7.
STATE OF THE COURTS OF COMMON
LAW.] Mr. Brougham rose, and ad-
dressed the House as follows :*-
Inserted, by Mr. Brougham's per-
mission, from the original edition, printed
for H, Colburn,


In rising to address the House upon one
of the most important subjects that can
possibly be submitted to the legislature, I
feel at the same time deeply impressed
with the conviction, that it is also one of
the most difficult, and certainly the largest,
that could engage its attention. I am
aware that I stand engaged to bring be-
fore you the whole state of the Common
Law of this country; the Common Law I
call it (in contradistinction to Equity),
with the view of pointing out those defects
which may have existed in its original
construction, or which time may have
engendered, as well as of considering the
remedies appropriate to correct them.
Nothing, I do assure you, at all strengthens
and bears me up under the pressure of this
vast and overwhelming burthen, but a con-
viction of the paramount importance, nay,
the absolute necessity, of no longer delay-
ing the inquiry, or postponing the needful
amendments; and the intimate persuasion
I feel, that I shall be able so to deal with
the subject (such is my veneration for all
that is good in our judicial system, and
my habitual respect for those in whose
hands the administration of it is placed),
as neither to offend the prejudices of one
class, nor vex the personal feelings of an-
other. But I feel confidence, also, which
is unspeakable, resting on another ground.
I come not here to raise cavils before men,
ignorant of the details and niceties of
the profession I belong to, and who, in
that unavoidable ignorance, would be unfit
judges of their merits; I am determined to
avail myself in no respect of their situation,
or of the absence of the learned body of
the profession, for the sake of a futile and
pitiful triumph over what is most valuable
in our jurisprudence. I am comforted and
confirmed in my resolution, from the ac-
cidental circumstances that have joined
me, in some sort, to the administration
of the law, in which I have had so con-
siderable an experience, I have seen so much
of its practical details, that it is, in my
view, no speculative matter whether for
blame or praise. I pledge myself, through
the whole course of my statement, as long
as the House may honour me with its at-
tention, in no one instance to make any
observation, to bring forward any griev-
ance, or mark any defect, of which I am
not myself competent to speak from per-
sonal knowledge. I do not merely say,
from observation as a bystander; I limit
myself still further, and confine myself tq


127 HOUSE OF COMMONS,






129 State of the Courts of Common Law.


causes in which I have been counsel for
one party or the other. By these con-
siderations, emboldened on the one hand,
and, on the other impressed with a becom-
ing sense of the arduous duty 1 have under-
taken in this weighty matter, I will, with-
out further preface, go on, in the first
place, to state the points which I intend
to avoid.
I shall omit Equity, in every branch,
unless where I may be compelled to men-
tion it incidentally, from its interference
with the course of the Common Law; not
that I think nothing should be done as to
Equity, but because in some sort it has
been already taken up by parliament. A
commission has sat, and inquired into the
subject, and produced a Report, received,
though not yet acted upon. The noble
and learned lord, who presides in the other
House, has announced his intention of
preparing a bill, founded on that Report.
I may also add, that the subject has, to his
own great honour, and to the lasting benefit
of the country, been for many years in the
hands of my hon. and learned friend, the
member for Durham (Mr. M. A. Taylor):
it is still with him, and I trust his care of
it will not cease. For reasons of a like
kind, I pass over the great head of
Criminal Law. That inquiry, happily for
the country, since the time when first
sir Samuel Romilly (a name never to be
pronounced by any without veneration, nor
ever by me without sorrow) devoted his
talents and experience to it, has been car-
ried forward by my hon. and learned
friend, the member for Knaresborough
(sir James Mackintosh) with various suc-
cess, until at length.he reaped the fruit of
his labours, and prevailed upon this House,
by a narrow majority, to lend its attention
towards so great a subject. On a smaller
scale, on one indeed of a very limited
nature, these inquiries have been followed
up by the right hon. gentleman, who is now
again Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment. It is not so much for anything
he has actually done, that I feel disposed to
thank him, as for the countenance he has
given to the subject. He has power, from
his situation, to effect reforms, which
others hardly dare propose. His connec-
tions in the Church and State, render his
services in this department almost in-
valuable. They have tended to silence
the clamours that would otherwise have
been raised against the reform of the
law, and might possibly have proved fatal
VOL. XVIII.


to it. If (which I do not believe) he in-
tended to limit his efforts to what he has
already accomplished; if he were disposed
to say, "Thus far have I gone, and no
further can I go with you," the gratitude
of his country would still be due to him
in an eminent degree, for having abashed
the worst enemies of improvement, by his
countenance and support. But I trust he
will gain direct the energies of his mind
to the great work of reformation, and be-
stow his exertions over a wider space
Another reason for avoiding this part
of the subject altogether is to be found in
the nature and objects of the Criminal Law.
I do not think it right to unsettle the
minds of those numerous and ignorant
classes, on whom its sanctions are prin-
cipally intended to operate. It might pro-
duce no good effects if they were all at
once to learn, that the Criminal Code in
the mass, as it were, had been sentenced
to undergo a revision-that the whole
penal code was unsettled and about to be
remodelled.
I intend also to leave out of my view
the Commercial Law. It lies within a
narrow compass, and it is far purer and
freer from defects than any other part of
the system. This arises from its late
origin. It has grown up within two
centuries, or a little more, and been formed
by degrees as the exigency of mercantile
affairs required. It is accepted, too, in
many of its main branches, by other states,
forming a code common to all trading
nations, and which cannot easily be
changed without their general consent.
Accordingly, the provisions of the French
Civil code, unsparing as they were of the
old Municipal-law, excepted the law mer-
chant, generally speaking, from the
changes which they introduced.
Lastly, Sir, the law of Real Property
forms no immediate subject of my present
consideration : not that I shall not have
much to propose intimately connected
with it, and many illustrations to derive
from it; but I am flattered with the hope,
that the Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment intends himself, on this subject, to
bring forward certain measures, by which
the present system will eventually undergo
salutary alterations; and I cannot help
here saying, that whatever the Criminal
Law owes tothe perseveringandenlightened
exertions of thelate sir Samuel Romilly, and
of his successor, the member for Knares-
borough (sir James Mackintosh), I am
F


FEB. 7, 1828.






131 HOUSE OF COMMONS, State of the Courts of Common Law. i3M


sure an almost equal debt of gratitude has
been incurred on the part of the law of
Real Property, to the honest, patient, and
luminous discussion which it has received
from one of the first conveyancers and
lawyers this country could ever boast of.
My hon. and learned friend (the Solicitor
General) opposite, and those members of
the House who are conversant with our
profession, will easily understand, that I
carl only allude to Mr. Humphreys.
With these exceptions, which I have
now stated as shortly as I was able, and
for Which i shall offer no apology, because
it was absolutely necessary that I should
begin by making the scope of my present
purpose understood, I intend to bring
all the law as administered in our courts of
justice, under the review of the House;
and, to this ample task, I at once proceed.
But I shall not enlarge, after the manner
of some, on the infinite importance and
high interest which belong to the question,
and the attention which it, of right, claims
from us, whether considered as a branch
of the government, or as the representatives
of the people, or asapartof the people them-
Selves. It would be wholly superfluous,-
for every one must at once admit, that, if
we view the whole establishments of the
country, the government by the king,
and the estates of the realm,-the entire
system of administration, whether civil or
military-the vast establishments of land
and of naval force by which the state is
defended-our foreign negotiations, in-
tended to preserve peace with the world-
our domestic arrangements, necessary to
make the government respected by the
people-or our fiscal regulations, by which
the expense of the whole is to be support-
ed-all shrink into nothing, when com-
pared with the pure, and prompt, and cheap
administration of justice throughout the
empire. I will indeed make no such com-
parisbn; I will not put in contrast things
so. inseparably connected; for all the es-
tablishments formed by our ancestors, and
supported by their descendants, were in-
vented and are chiefly maintained, in ordei
that justice may be duly administered be-
tweek mah and man. And, in my mind,
he was guilty of no error-he was charge-
able with no eiaggeration-he was betray-
ed by his fancy into no metaphor, who
0nee said, that all we see about us, King,
Lords, and Commons, the whole machinery
of the State, all the apparatus of the sys-
temr and its varied workings, ended in


simply bringing twelve good men into a
box. Such-the administration ofjustice-
is the cause of the establishment of govern-
ment-such is the use of government: it
is this purpose which can alone justify re-
straints on natural liberty-it is this only
whichcan excuse constant interferencewith
the rights and property of men. I then
invite you, Sir, to enter upon an unsparing
examination of this mighty subject: I in-
vite the House to proceed with me, first of
all into the different Courts-to mark what
failures in practice are to be found in the
system, as it was originally framed, as Well
as what errors time has engendered by occa-
sioning a departure from that system; and
then to consider, whether we may not,
safely, and usefully, apply to these defects
remedies of a seasonable and temperate
nature, restoring what is decayed, if it be
good-lopping off what experience has
proved to be pernicious.
i.-In the first place, let us proceed to
the Courts in Westminster-hall, and ob-
serve the course pursued in them. The
House is aware that, whatever may have
been the original of our three great Com-
mon Law courts, they now deal with nearly
the same description of suits, and that,
though the jurisdiction of each was at first
separate, and confined within very narrow
limits, their functions are noW nearly
the same. The jurisdiction of the court
of King's-bench, for example, was originally
confined to pleas of the Crown, and then
extended to actions where violence was
used-actions of trespass, by force; but,
now, all actions are admissible within its
walls,through the medium (iofal l gafiction,
which was adopted for the purpose of en-
larging its authority, that every person
sued is in the custody of the marshal of
the court, and may, therefore, be proceed-
ed against for any personal cause of action.
Thus, by degrees, this court has drawn
over to itself actions which really belong
to the great forum of ordinary actions be-
tween subject and subject, as its name im-
plies, the court of Coimmon Pleas. The
court of Common Pleils, however, iti its
exertions for extending its business, tas
not so fortunate as its rival; for, though
it made a vigorous attempt Uindbr lo l
chibf justice North with that view, it never
was able to obtain cognizance of-thu
peculiar subject of King's-bencl jirisdic-
tion-Crown Pleas.
I hope, Sir, the Hb ise Will allow the,
for the sake of a little dlUetieitetieft in the





133 State of the Courts of Common Law.


midst of so dry a matter, to state the
nature of the contest between the two
courts, as described by Roger North in
his biography of Lord Keeper Guiidftbrd ;
a work of amusement, with which I am
sure my learned friend (the Solicitor-
general) is as well acquainted as he is with
the subtleties of his profession.
It appears from his account, that the
courts of King's-bench and of Common
Pleas had quarrelled as to their respective
provinces; for he says, The court of
Common Pleas had been outwitted by the
King's-bench, till his lordship came upon
the cushion, and that by our artifice in
process called ac etiams. His lordship
used the same artifice in the process of his
court, where it was as good law as above.
But Hale exclaimed against it, and called
it altering the process of law ; which very
same thing his own court had done and
continued to do every day." In another
place he tells, The courts being upon
terms of competition, the King's-bench
outwitted in the Common Pleas :" and how
the latter invented a shift against the
King's-bench, "There," says he, the
Conimon Pleas thought they had nicked
them. But the King's-bench was not so
sterile of invention as to waht the means
of being even with that device," and he
shews how-concluding with this remark
--" The late chief justice, sir Orlando
Bridgman, and his officers of the Common
Pleas, gave this way of proceeding to the
King's bench very ill language, calling it
an arbitrary alteration of the form of legal
process, and utterly against law. But the
losers might speak; they got nothing else;
and the Triccum in lege, carried it for
the King's-bench; which court, as I said,
ran away with all the business." -
The Exchequer has adopted a similar
course; for, though it was originally con-
fined to the trial of revenue cases, it has,
by means of another fiction-the supposi-
tion, that every body sued as a debtor to
the Crown, and further, that he cannot
pay his debt, because the other party will
hot pay him,-opened its doors to every
suitor, and so drawn to itself the right of
trying cases, that were never intended to
be placed within its jurisdiction.
The first state of the courts being that
of distinct jurisdiction, then, of course, this

North's Lives of Lord Keeper Guild-
ford, &c. vol. 1, pp. 130, 203.
t Ibid.


separation of provinces was praised, there-
fore all distinction became obsolete, and
then the conflict and competition were as
much commended; and with far greater
reason, if it were real; but it is almost
purely speculative. In the first place, the
court of Common Pleas shuts its doors to
many practitioners of the law, requiring
that a certain proportion of fees should be
advanced at a much earlier stage in the
cause, than is customary in the other
courts. And who is it that must advance
this money ? Either the attorney himself,
if it be his own cause, must pay the money
out of his own pocket, or, if he is acting
as agent for a country practitioner, he
must begin by laying out the money long
before he can draw upon his employer for
reimbursement; and he is not, in all cases,
sure of being repaid for these advances. In
the second place, clients and their attornies
are induced, not to carry causes into the
Common Pleas, by the strict monopoly
that exists in the advocates of that court.
I have every wish to speak with all respect
of the learned persons who there engross
the practice; but as, no doubt solicitors
will have their favourites, and as possibly
their clients may also have their favourites,
the practice not being open to all barristers,
prevents many suitors from resorting to a
court where no one can be employed for
them, at least in term time, except he be a
sergeant; and, great as the learning of that
body is known to be, well founded as their
reputation is, for skill and for zeal, as well
as for legal knowledge, yet the exclusive
right which they exercise operates to
keep away business from the court, and
thus it has happened, both that other
advocates seldom practise there at Nisi
Prius where the court is open, and that
much fewer suits are carried to the Common
Pleas than to the King's-bench. The
causes which thus operate to shut the doors
of that court must be removed before it
can hope to have its fair share of practice.
The Exchequer, in like manner, has its
drawbacks, though they operate in another
way. There is one reason why, as at present
constituted, it cannot do much business,
or have the high reputation which it ought
to enjoy; I mean the mixture of various
suits which are cognizable in it. It is, in
fact, a court of all sorts-of equity and of
law-of revenue law, and of ordinary law
-of law between subject and subject, as
well as of law between the subject and the
Crown. This makes suitors, seeing the
F2


FEB. 7, 1828.






135 HOUSE OF COMMONS, State of the Courts of Common Law. 136


business done in so many different ways,
come to the conclusion that it is not well
done in any : I do not by any means assert,
that this is a correct opinion, at the present
time; because the judges and the barristers
employed in that court, do not, I am con-
vinced, yield to any body of professional
men in their knowledge of equity and law.
There are to be found on its bench, highly
distinguished equity, and common lawyers;
men of known legal talents, and the great-
est experience, both in Chancery practice,
in Nisi Prius, and in Criminal law. In
what, therefore, I have said, I refer merely
to that species of public opinion, which,
whether right or wrong, has been engendered
by the constitution of the court; I refer,
also, to the natural tendency of a juris-
diction, thus open to such a variety of
jurisprudence, to degenerate into inaccu-
racy, or want of effective skill in each de-
partment.
But there is another and more obvious
reason why this court does not obtain so
much business as the others; I mean the
limited number of attornies belonging to
and allowed to practise in it. If there is
cause to complain, as I have been doing,
of the monopoly among the advocates
attached to the Common Pleas, there is
much more cause for a similar complaint
touching the attornies in the Exchequer.
The practitioners in that court are four
attornies and sixteen clerks, and none
others are allowed to practise there: if a
country attorney wishes to take his cause
thither, the only mode by which he can
do so, is to employ one of the privileged
attornies of the court, and divide with him
the profits of the suit. It is needless to
say, that such a system has, of necessity,
a tendency at once to shut the doors of
the court of Exchequer against suitors.
What, then, is the natural consequence
of those restrictions which prevent suitors
from approaching the courts of Common
Pleas and Exchequer? Why, it is this-
wherever there is but little business done
in any court, those in power are induced
not to place the strongest judge in that
situation; then, the small portion of busi-
ness to be done, renders the judge less fit
for his office, and so, by action and re-
action, while the little business makes the
bench and the bar less able, the inferior
ability of the court still further reduces
that little business. I am here speaking
of past times, but with a view, however,
to what may occur at a future period. We


may not always have the bench so well
filled as it is at present. The time may
come when, if a judge were to be made, in
consequence of political influence, who was
known not to be capable of properly filling
the office, it may be said by those who
supported him, Oh, it does not matter-
send him to the court of Exchequer-
there is nothing to do there." Thus, the
small portion of business transacted-the
suspicion originating in the general mixture
of suits, carried on in different ways, that
the business is not well done,-the mono-
poly of attornies, together with several
other causes, occasions this court to be the
least frequented of any : indeed, it has now
scarcely any thing to engage its attention.
The judges do not sit for more than half
an hour some mornings, and there are
hardly ever on the paper more than six or
seven causes for trial after term : a dozen
would be considered a large entry; when I
well remember lord Ellenboroughhavingfive
hundred and eighty-eight set down for trial
in London only; and the present lord chief
justice lately had on his paper no less than
eight hundred and fifty untried causes. I
mention this to support my proposition,
that there is not really a free competition
between the different courts. To say, in
the circumstances which I have stated,
that suitors have a free access to all the
courts equally, is a fiction-an assertion
adapted to what ought to be, perhaps to
what is intended, but not founded on the
fact.
Experiments have been tried to lighten
the business of the court of King's-bench;
but I do not find that any of them have
answered the purpose for which they were
instituted. The first of these attempts was
made in the year 1821, when it was
arranged, that the chief justice should sit
in one court, and a puisne judge in another,
at the same time; but never did any
arrangement fail more completely. The
court in which the puisne judge sat
remained almost idle ; while the other court
was as constantly preferred, and nearly as
much overloaded as before. Little else
was effected but a great inconvenience
both to practitioners and suitors, by the
passing and repassing from court to court.
In fact, it is not in the power of the courts,
even were all monopolies and other restric-
tions done away, to distribute business
equally, as long as the suitors are left free
to choose their tribunal. There will
always be a favourite court; and the cir,






137 State of the Courts of Common Law.


cumstance of its being preferred tends to
make it more deserving of preference;
for if the favour towards it began in mere
caprice, the great amount of business
draws thither the best practitioners, to say
nothing ofjudges; and the better the court,
the greater will be its business. The same
action and re-action will operate favourably,
which I before shewed in its unfavourable
effects, where a court was declining.-
Possunt quia posse videntur." The expe-
riment of 1821, having failed entirely, was
not repeated.
Another attempt has subsequently been
made to relieve the court of King's-bench
from the pressure of Term business, which
must always bear a proportion to the Nisi
Prius causes. This system is still going
on, under the bill brought into the House
by the present Chancellor, and of which,
though he was induced to patronize it
officially when Solicitor-general, I have
reason to believe he never much approved.
As this arrangement is compulsory, the
client having no choice, it cannot well
fail; but I heartily wish that it had
failed, for it has done much mischief, and
is certainly one of the worst changes that
has ever taken place. It is true, the great
pressure of business requires that some-
thing should be done; but it is equally
true, that the right thing has not been
adopted ; for, where the King's-bench sits,
with the chief justice presiding-where
the suitors resort-where the bar is mustered
-where the public attend-where all the
counsel and attornies appear-where the
business is disposed of, as it ought to be,
gravely and deliberately, with the eyes of
mankind, with the eyes of the bar,- as well
as of the world at large, turned on the
proceedings-would not every one point
to as the place in which all important
legal questions ought to be decided?
Would not any one, on the other hand,
say, if another court were instituted in a
sort of back-room, where three judges
were sitting-where the only persons pre-
sent, beside the judges, were the counsel
and attorney employed on either side of the
cause that'was pending-where there was
no audience, and the public eye was en-
tirely directed not upon but from that to
the other court-would not any one, I
ask, declare, that a court so constituted
was the place in which the trifling business
alone should be transacted: These, I
think, would be but natural conclusions;
and yet if the matter be stated exactly the


other way, it will be far nearer the truth.
Of the really important business, as re-
gards both its difficulty and importance to
the law, and, indeed, to the suitor, a very
large proportion is done in that back-room,
and before these three judges ; it is done
Sin a corner, and, I may say, disposed of
behind people's backs, with only the at-
tendance of the attorney and barrister on
each side, or, at most, with the presence
of these and of the practitioners waiting for
the next cause ; and as the court is not
frequented by the public any more than the
profession, the business may certainly be
said to be transacted without due publicity
and solemnity. Thus we see, that by this
arrangement, while the most interesting
matter is overlooked, trifling business and
points of no importance are brought for-
ward with all possible observation:-a
motion for judgment as against the casual
ejector, which is a motion of course-a
motion to refer a bill to the Master
to compute principal and interest-for
judgment, as in case of a nonsuit-and
a thousand others, either of course or of
the most trifling moment, are heard with
the utmost publicity, before the whole
court-before the whole bar-before the
whole body of attornies-before the whole
public-all of which might be settled by
three judges in a corner, or by any one of
them, or by any one of their clerks. The
consequence is, that much time is lost to
the full court, while the most important
business-special arguments, raising the
greatest legal questions-new trials, in-
volving both matters of law and facts af-
fecting large interests; and the crown-
paper comprehending all the questions
from Session, are obliged to be heard in
the private and unsatisfactory manner I
have described. I wish this system to be
remedied, because it is a great and grow-
ing evil. It may be said, that the judges
have not time to do the business. I deny
that: there is time. Six hours a day, well
employed, would be amply sufficient for
all purposes. Let them come down to
the court at ten o'clock in the morning
and remain till four-a period of six hours
-and the business may be done. But
the system is at present extremely ill-ar-
ranged; and I will show how, without
having any one to blame for it. The
judges do their utmost, but they cannot
remedy the evil without your aid. Let us
see how their time is employed. They are
supposed to come to the court at ten


FEB. 7, 1828.







State of the Courts of Common Law


o'clock, and to remain there till four.
Surely this time may safely be pronounced
to be sufficient for the transaction of their
business. Then why have they not these
six hours ? There are two reasons for
this :-the one is, that bail must be taken
by a judge. Mr. Justice Bayley, no
longer ago than last Monday, was occupied
the whole day in the Bail court; and this
morning Mr. Justice Holroyd was not able
to get away till twelve o'clock. I cite
these instances of late occurrence, Sir,
that you may see how closely I desire to
keep by the actually existing state of the
facts; but every week furnishes examples
as well as the present. Thus, then, we
see that in one case a whole day was lost, as
far as regards a full court, and in another
two hours, merely for the purpose of attend-
ing to trifling business, which might just
as well be transacted by a commissioner,
say a barrister of ten years standing.
The other reason why the judges' time is
mispent, arises from chamber business,
which consists in the learned judges', the
profound lawyers, the great magistrates,
whose names I have made free to mention,
sitting at Sergeants'-inn to hear the
squabbles of attornies, and the clerks of
attornies, among themselves, for barristers
rarely attend : this takes them in rotation
away from the court at three o'clock; so
that, in fact, while their nominal time is
from ten to four, they are only, on the
average, really present from eleven or
twelve to three, by which, instead of
transacting business during six hours, the
time is reduced to three, or at most four
hours per day. And what, Sir, is the in-
ference from all this ? Obvious enough,
certainly: for though it may be fairly
contended, that the business of the Bail-
court could be transacted by a commis-
sioner, it may, perhaps, be doubted whe-
ther the Chamber practice does not re-
quire a judge to perform it, considering
the points to be disposed of, and the per-
sons to be controlled. There may, there-
fore, be a sufficient excuse for the arrange-
ment, as matters stand at present, and yet
a remedy may be necessary, as it may
certainly be found in changing the cir-
cumstances. For my own part, I frankly
confess that I am one of those who do not
see the permanent excellence that some
suppose to be vested in the number
twelve; although lord Coke has spoken of
it with a degree of rapture like that of the
Algebraist, when he dwells upon the mar-


vellous'powers of three or of nine. Twelve
appears to be the number in his view, con-
nected with all that is important and
venerable, either sacred or profane, ancient
or modern; but as I, unfortunately, do
not possess the lights by which he was
guided, I cannot help thinking that four-
teen is a much better number than twelve,
although it nray not be so good for
division; and although I cannot quote
the fourteen Apostles, or the fourteen
Tables, or the fourteen wise men. It will,
indeed, divide by seven, which is more
than can be said of twelve; but I rely not
upon that superiority: it has another
arithmetical quality of more importance.
Though neither so divisable, nor so beau-
tiful, nor so classical as twelve, it contains
two more units than twelve-beats it by
two beyond all doubt or cavil; and that
superiority recommends it for my present
purpose. If twelve was beautiful in the
days of lord Coke, fourteen must now, I
fear, on this account take its place: for
how any one can suppose, that twelve men
can be able to do now, what they were only
able to do centuries ago, is to me matter
of astonishment; now, that they have
seven or eight hundred causes to try,
where they formerly had but thirty or forty,
and when we know, that in the time of
lord Mansfield, in the late reign, sixty
was reckoned a large entry.
This, Sir, is one of the illustrations
which I would give to expose the heedless
folly of those who charge the Bench and
the Bar with causing all the delays in
legal proceedings. How can it be ex-
pected, that twelve judges can go through
the increased and increasing business now,
when the affairs of men are so extended
and multiplied in every direction, the same
twelve, and at one time fifteen, having
not been much more than sufficient for
the comparatively trifling number of causes
tried two or three centuries ago ? But,
there is a far more unthinking and more
dangerous prejudice to which the same
topic is a complete refutation-I mean
the outcry against innovation, set up as
often as any one proposes those reforms,
rendered necessary by the changes that
time, the great innovator, is perpetually
making.-Tempus novatur rerum.-Those
who advise an increase of the judges be-
yond their present number are not inno-
vators. The innovators are, in truth, those
who would stand still while the world is
going forward,-who would only employ


39 HOUSE OF COMMONS,





State of the Courts of Common Law. 128


House. His object was to lay before the
country the evils produced by the present
system. The hon. member then proceeded
to read, from the returns upon the table of
the House, the number of persons then
confined in the different prisons, and con-
tended, that it was clear from those returns,
that arrests effected any thing but the
proposed end; namely, the payment of
debts. It was absurd to suppose that
confining a man within the walls of a
prison wasthe way to makehim payhis debts.
On the contrary, it prevented all possibility
of his doing so, because it precluded all
possibility of his exercising the calling by
which he had been accustomed to gain a
livelihood. A glaring instance of the folly
of this proceeding was the case of Mr.
Haydon, the artist, who was prevented by
imprisonment from exercising his profes-
sion, for whom a subscription was entered
into, and who, at a public meeting, had
showed how short-sighted were the persons
who had placed him in such a situation.
He thought the subject, in every point of
view, so important, that should it not be
included in the motion which his learned
friend, the member for Winchelsea, was
to bring forward to-morrow, he would
move for a select committee to inquire into
it. He would now move, That there be
laid before the House, a Return of the
number of Prisoners committed to the
King's Bench, Fleet, Whitecross-street,
Marshalsea, andHorsemonger-lane Prisons,
in 1827; distinguishing those in custody
under Mesne Process, or under Judgments
Recovered, or for Costs of Suits; stating
how many for sums above 1001., between
501. and 1001., between 501. and 201., and
sums under 201. (excluding Crown
Debtors); stating also the number in cus-
tody in each of those Prisons on 1st
January, 1828." Also, A Return of the
number of Warrants granted to arrest for
Debt by the Sheriffs of London and Mid-
dlesex, and by the Sheriff of Surrey, and
the number of Bailable Processes executed
by them in the year 1827."-Ordered.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 7.
STATE OF THE COURTS OF COMMON
LAW.] Mr. Brougham rose, and ad-
dressed the House as follows :*-
Inserted, by Mr. Brougham's per-
mission, from the original edition, printed
for H, Colburn,


In rising to address the House upon one
of the most important subjects that can
possibly be submitted to the legislature, I
feel at the same time deeply impressed
with the conviction, that it is also one of
the most difficult, and certainly the largest,
that could engage its attention. I am
aware that I stand engaged to bring be-
fore you the whole state of the Common
Law of this country; the Common Law I
call it (in contradistinction to Equity),
with the view of pointing out those defects
which may have existed in its original
construction, or which time may have
engendered, as well as of considering the
remedies appropriate to correct them.
Nothing, I do assure you, at all strengthens
and bears me up under the pressure of this
vast and overwhelming burthen, but a con-
viction of the paramount importance, nay,
the absolute necessity, of no longer delay-
ing the inquiry, or postponing the needful
amendments; and the intimate persuasion
I feel, that I shall be able so to deal with
the subject (such is my veneration for all
that is good in our judicial system, and
my habitual respect for those in whose
hands the administration of it is placed),
as neither to offend the prejudices of one
class, nor vex the personal feelings of an-
other. But I feel confidence, also, which
is unspeakable, resting on another ground.
I come not here to raise cavils before men,
ignorant of the details and niceties of
the profession I belong to, and who, in
that unavoidable ignorance, would be unfit
judges of their merits; I am determined to
avail myself in no respect of their situation,
or of the absence of the learned body of
the profession, for the sake of a futile and
pitiful triumph over what is most valuable
in our jurisprudence. I am comforted and
confirmed in my resolution, from the ac-
cidental circumstances that have joined
me, in some sort, to the administration
of the law, in which I have had so con-
siderable an experience, I have seen so much
of its practical details, that it is, in my
view, no speculative matter whether for
blame or praise. I pledge myself, through
the whole course of my statement, as long
as the House may honour me with its at-
tention, in no one instance to make any
observation, to bring forward any griev-
ance, or mark any defect, of which I am
not myself competent to speak from per-
sonal knowledge. I do not merely say,
from observation as a bystander; I limit
myself still further, and confine myself tq


127 HOUSE OF COMMONS,






State of the Courts of Common Law.


the same number of labourers while the
harvest has increased ten-fold,-who, ad-
hering to the ancient system of having but
twelve judges, although the work for them
to do has incalculably increased, refuse to
maintain the original equality, the pristine
fitness of the means to the end, the old
efficiency and adequacy of the establish-
ment; but they are not innovators who
would apply additional power when the
pressure exceeds all former bounds-who,
when the labour is changed, would alter
the price of workmen employed, and thus
preserve the proportions that originally
existed in the judicial system-who would
most literally keep things as they were, or
return them to their primitive state by
restoring and perpetuating their former
adaptation and harmony. The advantage
of the addition I am recommending will
become the more evident, when I consider
the Welsh judicature, which I believe to
be the worst that was ever established.
Why should not the two judges be re-
ceived amongst the others, and divide the
Welsh circuits with the old ones? Not
that I mean they should always take those
circuits, but each might take them in his
turn, as each in his turn might sit in the
court of King's-bench and Common Pleas,
and at the Old Bailey, besides dividing
with the chiefs the sittings at Nisi Prius.*
There are two observations, Sir, which
I have to make relative to the judges ge-
nerally, and which I may as well state
now I am upon that subject. I highly
approve of paying these learned persons
by salaries, and not by fees, as a general
principle ; but, so long as it is the practice
not to promote the judges, which I deem
essential to the independence of the bench,
and so long as the door is thus closed to
all ambition, so long must we find a ten-
dency in them, as in all men arrived at
their resting place, to become less strenu-
ous in their exertions than they would be
if some little stimulus were applied to
them. They have an irksome and an
arduous duty to perform, and if no motive

*The three puisne judges thus sitting
in banco, the fourth would each term
take bail, and insolvents and common mo-
tions in the morning, and chamber busi-
ness afterwards; he would also take the
sittings in term, a serious inconvenience
at present; and he might dispose of cer-
tain classes of cases after term, as unde-
fended causes and bills of exchange.


be held out to them, the natural conse-
quence must be, as long as men are men,
that they will have a disposition growing
with their years to do as little as possible.
I, therefore, would hold out an induce-
ment to them to labour vigorously, by
allowing them a certain moderate amount
of fees : I say, a very moderate amount, a
very small addition to their fixed salary,
would operate as an incentive; and if this
were thought expedient, it ought to be so
ordered that such fees should not be in
proportion to the length of a suit, or the
number of its stages, but that the amount
should be fixed and defined once for all,
in each piece of business finally disposed
of. I am quite aware that this mode of
payment is not likely to meet with general
support, especially with the support of the
reformers of the law; but I give the sug-
gestion as the result of long reflection,
which has produced a leaning in my mind
towards some such a plan. I throw out
the matter for inquiry, as the fruit of
actual observation, and not from any fancy
that I have in my own head; but I may
also mention, that some friends of the
highest rank and largest experience in the
profession, agree with me in this point,
men who are among the soundest and
most zealous supporters of reform in the
courts of law.
The other general observation that I
have to make, with respect to the judges,
is of a nature entirely different from the
last which I have submitted to the House.
The great object of every government, in
electing the judges of the land, should be
to obtain the most skilful and learned
men in their profession, and at the same
time, the men whose character gives the
best security for the pure and impartial
administration of justice. I almost feel
ashamed, Sir, to have troubled you with
such a truism; but the House will pre-
sently see the application I am about to
make of it. Sorry am I to say, that our
system of judicial promotion sins in both
these particulars. Government ought to
fill the bench with men taken from among
the most learned lawyers and most ac-
complished advocates-men who have
both knowledge of the depths of juris-
prudence and sagacity to apply it-men
who, from experience as leading advocates
possess the power of taking large and en-
lightened views of questions, and of
promptly seizing the bearings of a case.
There cannot be a greater error than theirs


FEB. 7, 1828.






143 HOUSE OF COMMONS, State of the Courts of Common Law. 144


who fancy that an able advocate makes a
bad judge; all experience is against it.
The best judges in my time, with the ex-
ception of the present Lord Chief Justice,
than whom no man can discharge his
office more excellently and efficiently,
have all of them been previously distin-
guished as advocates in the profession.
But not only should the choice be uncon-
fined by the legal acquirements and pro-
fessional habits of the practitioner, there
ought not to be, in choosing judges from
the bar, any exclusion or restriction. He
alone ought to be selected, in whom ta-
lent, integrity, and experience most abound,
and are best united. The office of judge
is one of so important and responsible a
nature, that one should suppose the mem-
bers of government would naturally require
that they should be at liberty to make
their selection from the whole field of the
profession-that they would themselves
claim to have the whole field open to their
choice. Whocould suppose that a ministry
would not eagerly seek to have all men
before them, when their object must be
to choose the most able and accomplished ?
But, although this is obvious and unde-
niable, and although the extension of the
ministers' search cannot fail to be attend-
ed with the highest public advantage, as
well as the greatest relief to him in per-
forming his trust, is it the case that any
such general and uncontrolled choice is
exercised ? Is all the field really open ?
Are there no portions of the domain ex-
cluded from the selectors' authority ? True,
no law prevents such a search for capacity
and worth True, the doors of West-
minster-hall stand open to the minister!
He may enter those gates, and choose the
ablest and the best men there. Be his
talent what it may, be his character what
it may, be his party what it may, no man
to whom the offer is made will refuse to
be a judge. But there is a custom
above the law-a custom, in my mind,
"more honoured in the breach than the
observance," that party, as well as merit,
must be studied in these appointments.
One half of the bar is thus excluded from
the competition; for no man can be a
judge who is not of a particular party.
Unless he be the known adherent of a
certain system of government,-unless he
profess himself devoted to one scheme of
policy,-unless his party happen to be
the party connected with the Crown, or
allied with the ministry of the day, there


is no chance for him ; that man is surely
excluded. Men must be on one side of
the great political question to become
judges; and no one may hope to fill that
dignified office, unless he belongs to the
side on which courtly favour shines; his
seat on the bench must depend, generally
speaking, on his supporting the leading
principles of the existing administration.
But perhaps, Sir, I may be carrying
this distinction too far, and it may be
said, that the ministers do not expect the
opinions of a judge should exactly coin-
cide with theirs in political matters. Be
it so; I stop not to cavil about trifles;
but, at all events, it must be admitted
that, if a man belongs to a party opposed
to the views of government; if, which the
best and ablest of men, and the fittest for
the bench, may well be, he is known for
opinions hostile to the ministry, he can
expect no promotion-rather let me say,
the country has no chance of his elevation
to the bench, whatever be his talents, or
how conspicuously soever he may shine
in all the most important departments of
his profession. No one, I think, will
venture to deny this ; or, if he do, I defy
him to show me any instance in the course
of the last hundred years, of a man, in
party fetters, and opposed to the princi-
ples of government; being raised to the
bench. No such thing has taken place
that I know of. Never have I heard of
such a thing, at least in England; though
we have, perhaps, known instances of men
who have changed their party, to arrive at
the heights of their profession. But on
this subject, desirous throughout of avoid-
ing all offence, I will not press-I do
not wish to say a word about it.
In Scotland, it is true, a more liberal
policy has been adopted, and the right
hon. gentleman opposite has done himself
great honour by recommending Mr.
Gillies, Mr. Cranstoun (now lords Gillies
and Carrhouse), and Mr. Clerk, (lord
Eldin) all as well known for party-men
there as lord Eldon is here. Two other
instances should be added-the lord Chief
Commissioner, who has had the signal
happiness of presiding over the introduc-
tion of jury trial into his native country, and
Mr. Cathcart and lord Alloway; though,
unfortunately, their party has been what is
now once more termed, the wrong side;
but all men of the very highest eminence
among the professors of the law. Now,
when I quote these instances in Scotland,






State of the Courts of Common Law.


I want to see examples of the same sort
in England; for, however great my re-
spect for the law and the people of the
North may be, I cannot help thinking,
that we of the South too, and our juris-
prudence, are of some little importance,
and that the administration of justice
here may fairly call for some portion of
attention. But, Sir, what is our system ?
If, at the present moment, the whole of
Westminster-hall were to be called in the
event of any vacancy unfortunately occur-
ring among the chief justices, to name the
man best suited to fill it, to point out the
individual whose talents and integrity best
deserved the situation-whose judicial
exertions were the most likely to shed
blessings on his country-can any one
doubt for a moment whose name would
be echoed on every side? No; there
could be no question as to the individual
to whom would point the common con-
sent of those most competent to judge;
but, then, he is known as a party-man,
and all his merits, were they even greater
than they are, would be in vain extolled
by his profession, and in vain desiderated
by his country. I reprobate this mis-
chievous system by which the empire
loses the services of some of the ablest,
the most learned, and most honest, men
within its bounds.
And here let me not be supposed to
blame one party more than another; I
speak of the practice of all governments
in this country; and, I believe, when the
Whigs were in office, in 1806, they did
not promote to the bench any of their
political opponents; they had no vacan-
cies in Westminster-hall to fill up, but in
the Welsh judicature they pursued the
accustomed course. Now, what is the
consequence of thus carrying party-prin-
ciples into judicial appointments? The
choice of judges is fettered by being con-
fined to half the profession; so that you
have less chance of able men; and those
you get are of necessity partisans, and,
therefore, less honest and impartial. Why
should the whole bench be Ministerial or
Tory? No man can desire it to be so,
for the purposes of judging over a corm-
munity, far, very far, from being Ministe-
rial or Tory. Yet it must be so, unless
vacancies should occur during those visits
of Whig ministries, few and far between,"
when once in a quarter of a century power
falls upon that party, and then spreads its
wings and flies from them in a few months.


Does not this arrangement instil into the
minds, both of expectant judges and of
men already on the bench, a feeling of
party fatal to strict justice in political
questions? I speak impartially, but un-
hesitatingly on this point, for it is perfectly
notorious, that now-a-days, whenever a
question comes before the bench, whether
it be upon a prosecution for libel, or upon
any other matter connected with politics,
the council at their meeting take for grant-
ed that they can tell pretty accurately the
leaning of the judges, and predict exactly
enough which way the consultation of the
judges will terminate, though they may
not always discover the particular path
which will lead to that termination. While
the system I complain of continues, while
you suffer it to continue, such a leaning
is its necessary consequence. The judges
have this leaning-they must have it-
they cannot help having it-you compel
them to have it-you choose them on ac-
count of their notoriously having it at the
bar; and you vainly hope that they will
suddenly put it off, when they rise by its
means to the bench. On the contrary,
they know they fill a certain situation, and
they cannot forget by whom they were
placed there, or for what reason.
There is no doubt that the present
judges will always discharge their func-.
tions with all the impartiality that any
man can expect from them; but I speak
without reference to individual habits or
prejudices-I speak of impressions which
it is natural to expect must exist, where
circumstances all conspire to create them;
I speak, too, I must be allowed to say,
quite disinterestedly. I cannot take the
situation of a judge-I cannot afford it.
I speak not for myself, but for the coun-
try, because I feel it to be a matter of the
deepest importance; and from what I
have seen of the right hon. gentleman
opposite (Mr. Peel), I really do hope to
see this matter much more maturely
weighed, than it has heretofore been.
ii.-I am afraid that I have already tired
the House with the length of these de-
tails; but I must now take my leave, for
a time, of Westminster-hall, and beg of
you to mark, in the next place, the man-
ner in which the law is administered in
Wales. Why should Wales, because it
happens to be termed the Principality,
have the rights of property, and the per-
sonal privileges of the inhabitants, dealt
with by different judges, and almost by a,


FrB. 7, 1828. 146






Stat6 of the Courts of Common Law. 148


different system from that which is esta-
blished in England? In England you
have the first men-men of the highest
education and experience-to sit in judg-
ment on life and property. In Wales you
have as judges, I will not say inferior men,
but certainly not the very first, nor in any
respect such as sit upon what Roger North
calls the cushion in Westminster-hall."
I shall here show three great defects re-
quiring a remedy most imperatively. Often-
times, those gentlemen have left the bar,
and retired to the pursuits of country gen-
tlemen. I do not say that they are, for
that reason, unfit for the office of judge,
but still they cannot be so competent as
men in the daily administration of the law,
and forming part of our Supreme courts.
In some cases they continue in West-
minster-hall-which is so much the worse,
-because a man who is a judge one half
the year, and a barrister the other, is not
likely to be either a good judge or a good
barrister. But a second and a greater
objection is, that the Welsh judges never
change their circuits. One of them, for
instance, goes the Carmarthen circuit,
another the Brecon circuit, and a third
the Chester circuit-but always the same
circuit. And what is the inevitable con-
sequence? Why, they become acquainted
with the gentry, the magistrates, almost
with the tradesmen of each district, the
very witnesses who come before them, and
intimately with the practitioners, whether
counsel or attorney. The names, the
faces, the characters, the histories, of all
those persons are familiar to them; and
out of this too great knowledge grow
likings and prejudices which never can by
any possibility cast a shadow over the
open, broad, and pure path of the judges
of Westminster-hall. Then again they
have no retiring pensions, and the conse-
quence is, they retain their salaries long
after they have ceased to discharge, pro-
perly, the functions for which they receive
them. Now mark the result of all this.
On one of the Welsh circuits, at the last
Spring Assizes, there were set down no
more than forty-six causes for trial; and
how many does the House think were
disposed of? Only twenty, and of the
twenty-six made remanets, are some that
had stood over from the preceding assizes.
It is evident enough what should be done
here. Ifany of thej udge of the Principality
have become, from the extreme pressure
of business on the one hand, or from any


physical cause on the other, inadequate
to the discharge of the business which
comes before them, pension them off-jf
they be barristers yet remaining in West-
minster-hall, and not fit to be raised to
the bench, pension them off too: sure I
am, .that theirs will be the cheapest pen-
sion, nay, the most beneficial to the giver,
f being twice blessed," which has ever
been bestowed. I verily think that the
Principality would itself cheerfully pay
this first cost of a better system. At all
events, add two judges to your present
number, and let them take, with the other
twelve, their turn and share in the busi-
ness of the country. Let the Principality
of Wales be divided into two circuits, and
then you will have the work well done, and
quickly done, especially if you transfer
the equity jurisdiction to the two courts
of Westminster. In addition to this, from
the accession to the present number of
judges, the existing difficulties arising
from the bail court and the chamber prac-
tice will be done away.
And here, before passing to another
head of judicature, the times of the cir-
cuits require a word or two. Not, per-
haps, that this is of so much importance
as the other defects I have already noticed,
or shall presently touch upon; but it re-
gards classes of great importance in them-
selves, judges, barristers, and solicitors;
and it touches also, in no little degree, the
conveniency of the community at large.
I should be most glad to see that folly-
for really I cannot call it by any other
name-that absurd and vexatious folly of
regulating Easter term by means of the
moon, done away with. It is said by many
that this would be difficult to reform. I
see no such difficulty in the matter. Let
the law returns be made certain, and leave
the moveable feast to the church. I have
no wish to interfere with the terms and
seasons of the church; let those be regu-
lated as you please; but let this incon-
venience in the law be remedied, by making,
for Easter and Trinity terms, like those
for Michaelmas and Hilary, the returns on
some certain days. I remember that when
the late Mr. Erskine brought in a bill, in
1802, to fix Easter term, a learned judge
delivered himself iu print against the dan-
gerous innovation; and some persons,
alarmed by him, exclaimed, Only ima-
gine the horror of attempting to change
Easter term, when all Christians through-
out the world have at present the unspeak-


147 HOUSE OF COMMONS,








able comfort of knowing that they are the circuit, and the long vacation, earlier
keeping this great festival upon one and by four or five weeks in one year, and
the same day." For my part, I have no later by four or five weeks in another, is a
wish to deprive them of this comfort, ad- most serious inconvenience in itself, and
mitting it, as I do, to be unspeakable. quite unnecessary upon any principle.
The day upon which Good Friday falls Only observe how hard the present system
may be determined as heretofore, that is, bears, for instance, upon those who, like
by the period of the full moon; by the myself, frequent the Northern circuit. It
same certain varying rule may Easter happened to me, that I did not get home
Sunday be fixed for all clerical purposes ; till the 20th of September last year, having
but temporal business ought not to be repaired to London on the 5th of October
sacrificed to these ideas of some undefined the year before, so that I was engaged in
spiritual consolation. There is no incon- my profession for eleven months and a
venience in Easter being moveable, but half, and having been gratified, out of the
there is a very great inconvenience in twelve months, by exactly one fortnight's
making the law returns moveable. Why vacation for needful repose, when I should
not, then, let the feasts of the Church have been obliged again to bend my steps
remain changeable as heretofore, and the towards Guildhall, appointed to open on
Terms of the courts, little enough con- the 9th of October, I naturally enough
nected with sacred things, fall at a stated joined those who signed a requisition to
period ? Let it be counted, for example, my lord Tenterden, entreating him to defer
from Lady-day, which is always on the the sittings. His lordship most hand-
25th of March. But why, indeed, must somely expressed his willingness to meet
we continue to count from Saints' days, the wishes of the gentlemen of the bar,
now that we have happily a very Protestant kindly returning the affectionate respect
country, more especially under the govern- which all who practise in his court bear to
ment of the present Commander-in-chief? his person. He stated his satisfaction at
Why preserve any Romish folly of this being able to accommodate us, by sitting
sort, and keep up a mere remnant of on Tuesday the 16th, instead of Tuesday
popery ? Let Easter Term always begin the 9th, so that we obtained a week, for
on the 10th of April, or on the 5th, and which we were thankful. My lordobserv-
the inconvenience will cease. It is the ed, that in the state of his paper he could
foolishest of vulgar errors tosuppose, that. grant us no more; indeed, such is his
by how much the more you vex and ha- resolutionmanfullyandhonestlytodespatch
rass the professors of the law, by so much his business, that he seems to take as much
the more you benefit the country. The interest in his work as others do in their
fact is quite the reverse: for by these relaxation.
means you make inferior men, both in That his lordship's paper was far too
feelings, and in accomplishments, alone heavy, there cannot be a doubt, and so it
follow that profession out of which the will always be. No one judge can get
judges of the l nd must be appointed. I through the mass of causes entered in the
should rather say, that by how much the King's-bench, trying them patiently and
more you surround this renowned profes- really hearing them to an end. Depend
sion with difficulties and impediments, upon it, when more have been tried in the
calculated only to make it eligible for per- same time, they have been half heard and
sons of mere ordinary education, and forced to compromise or reference. Now,
mere habits of drudgery, who otherwise if you will have two judges sitting at Nisi
would find their way to employment in Prius at once, each of them taking a
tradesmen's shops, or at bestin merchants' particular class of trials-the one confining
counting-houses-by so much the more himself to the heavy business, and the
you close it upon men of talent and re- other to bills of exchange, promissory note
spectability, and prevent it from being the cases, and undefended causes generally--
resort of genius and of liberal accomplish., the whole business of the court could be
ments. I apprehend, therefore, that the got through both thoroughly and with
convenience of the Bar is a matter which despatch; but, as the law now stands, it
the legislature ought never to lose sight of, is utterly impossible for any man, in days
where it clashes not with the advantage of consisting of no more than twenty-four
the suitor. The having the Terms which hours, and labouring for eleven months in
are moveable (Easter and Trinity), and the year, to dispose of the business before


149 State of the Courts of Commlon Law.


FEB. 7, 1828. 150






151 HOUSE OF COMMONS, State of the Courts of Common Law.


him. I say eleven months, for the Court,
with the exception of a day or two of
respite at Easter, and a week at Christmas,
sat for eleven months last year, taking the
circuits as part of the year's work.
Another obvious distribution might be
made without having two judges sitting
together in one court. If, as all real
actions have their domicile in the Common
Pleas, actions which, in their nature, par-
take of real actions, as ejectments, tres-
pass to try title, and so forth, might be
carried there too. Other suits might be
susceptible of a similar classification, as if
actions respecting tithes, which are not
frequent, bills of exchange, and promissory
notes, were carried into the court of Ex-
chequer. The lord chief Baron is allowed,
by the 57th of Geo. 3rd, to sit in Equity
and to hear alone, all causes and all
motions in equity; but he never, in fact,
does hear motions, although certainly no
lawyer ever sat in that court more fitted to
despatch any branch of Equity practice
than is the present head of the Exchequer.
Were he confined to the equity side, and
were another judge, a common lawyer, ap-
pointed to preside on the law side of that
court, you would have two effective courts,
instead of one not very effective for either
law or equity. The court of Chancery
would be materially relieved by this ar-
rangement; while the double good would
be found of the business being better done
both on the bench and at the bar, from
that expertness which ever attends the
division of labour; and of seasonable
relief being afforded to both the judges
and practitioners of the King's-bench, who
would be restored to something of the
leisure, at least the moderate professional
employment, so favourable to the liberal
pursuits and unfettered study of juris-
prudence, which have always formed the
most accomplished lawyers.
iii.-I now pass to the Civil Law courts;
and their constitution I touch with a ten-
der, and, I may say, a trembling hand,
knowing that, from my little experience
of their practice, I am scarcely competent
to discourse of them ; for I profess to
speak only from such knowledge as I have
obtained incidentally from practising in
the two courts of Appeal, the high court
of Delegates, and the Cock-pit, where I
have been occasionally associated with the
civilians. The observations I have to make
on this part of the subject resolve them-
selves, entirely, into those which I would


offer upon the manner in which their
judges are appointed and paid. In the
first place, I would have them better paid
than they are now; a reform to which I
would fain hope there may be no serious
objection on their part, averse, as I know
them, generally, to all change. I think
they are underpaid in respect of the most
important part of their functions. The
judge of the high court of Admiralty, who
has the highest situation, or almost the
highest, among the judges of the land
(for there is none of them who decides
upon questions of greater delicacy and
moment, in a national view, or involving
a larger amount of property)-this great
dignitary of the law has 2,5001. a-year
salary only. The rest of his income
is composed of fees, and these are little or
nothing during peace. But, then, in time
of war, they amount to seven or eight
thousand per annum. I profess not to
like the notion of a functionary, who has
'so many calls, as the judge of the Admi-
ralty court, for dealing with the most
delicate neutral questions-for drawing
up manifestos and giving opinions on
these questions, and advising the Crown
in matters of public policy bearing on our
relations with foreign states ;-I like not,
I say, the notion of such a personage being
subject to the dreadful bias (and here,
again, I am speaking on general principles
only, and with no personal reference what-
ever) as he is likely to receive from the
circumstance of his having a salary of
2,5001. per annum only, if a state of
peace continue, and between ten or eleven
thousand a year, if it be succeeded by
war. I know very well, Sir. that no feel-
ing of this kind could possibly influence
the present noble judge of that court;
but I hardly think it a decent thing to
underpay him in time of peace, and still
less decent is it, to overpay him at a period
when the country is engaged in a war. I
conceive that it may not always be safe to
make so large an increase to a judge's
salary dependent upon whether the horrors
of war or the blessings of peace frown or
smile upon his country-to bestow upon
one, eminently mixed up with questions
on which the continuance of tranquillity,
or its restoration when interrupted, may
hinge, a revenue, conditioned upon the
coming on, and the endurance of hos-
tilities.
The other remark, which I have to offer
on these courts, I would strongly press





State of the Courts of Common Law.


upon the consideration of the House; it'
relates to the mode in which their judges
are appointed. Is it a fit thing, I ask,
now, when Popery is no longer cherished
or even respected, indeed hardly tolerated,
among us-that one of its worst practices
should remain, the appointment of some
of the most eminent judges in the Civil
Law courts by prelates of the Church ? I
except, indeed, the judge of the high
court of Admiralty, because his commission
proceeds from the Lord High Admiral;
but I speak of all those who preside in the
Consistorial courts-who determine the
most grave and delicate questions of
spiritual law, marriage, and divorce, and
may decide on the disposition by will of
all the personalty in the kingdom. Is it
a fit thing that the judges in these most
important matters should be appointed,
not by the Crown, not by removable and
responsible officers of the Crown-but by
the archbishop of Canterbury and bishop
of London, who are neither removable nor
responsible-who are not lawyers-who
are not statesmen-who ought to be no
politicians-who are, indeed, priests of
the highest order, but not, on that account,
the most proper persons to appoint judges
of the highest order ? So it is in the pro-
vince of York, where the judges are ap-
pointed by the archbishop; so in all other
Consistorial courts, where the judges are
appointed by the bishops of the respective
dioceses in which they are situated.
From their courts an appeal lies, it is true,
to the court of Delegates, in the last re-
sort; but, so far from this affording an
adequate remedy, it is an additional evil;
for I will venture to affirm, that the Dele-
gates is one of the worst constituted courts
which was ever appointed, and that the
course of its proceedings forms one of the
greatest mockeries of appeal ever con-
ceived by man. And I shall demonstrate
this to you in a very few words. The
Court is thus formed :-You take three
judges from the Common Law courts, one
from each: to these you add some half
dozen civil lawyers, advocates from Doc-
tors' Commons, who the day before may
have been practising in those courts, but
who happen not to have been in the par-
ticular cause, in respect of which the ap-
peal has been asserted. Now, only see
what the consequence of this must be.
The civilians, forming the majority of the
Delegates, are, of necessity, men who have
no practice, or the very youngest of the


doctors. So that you absolutely appeal
from the three great judges of the Civil
and Maritime courts-from the sentences
of sir William Scott, sir John Nicholl,
and sir Christopher Robinson-of those
learned and experienced men, who are to
us the great luminaries of the Civil law-
the venerated oracles best fitted to guide
our path through all the difficulties of that
branch of the science, and open to us its
dark passages-you appeal from them to
judges, the majority of whom must, of
necessity, be the advocates the least em-
ployed in the courts where those great
authorities preside, the most recently ad-
mitted to those courts, and the most un-
qualified to pronounce soundly on their
proceedings, if it were decent that they
should pronounce at all; for, out of so
small a bar, the chances are, that the three
or four eminent advocates have been em-
ployed in the case under appeal. Thus
the absurdity is really much the same as
if you were to appeal from a solemn and
elaborate judgment, pronounced by my
lord Tenterden, Mr. Justice Bayley, Mr.
Justice Holroyd, and Mr. Justice Little-
dale, to the judgment of three young bar-
risters, called but the day before, and
three older ones, who never could obtain
any practice.
Sir, I have spoken of the primate and
his principal suffragan; and I hope I need
not protest, especially while I have the
pleasure of addressing you, that what I
have said of the privilege belonging to the
highest dignitary in the Church, my obser-
vations were meant to be most remote in-
deed from every thing like personal disre-
spect; towards no persons in their exalted
station do I bear a more profound respect
than to both the distinguished prelates I
have named, well knowing the liberality of
their conduct in exercising the powers I
am objecting to, as all the country knows
the extent of learning and integrity of
character which have made them the
ornaments of our hierarchy.
iv.-I next come to speak of the Privy
Council; a very important judicature, and
of which the members discharge as mo-
mentous duties as any of the judges of
this country, having to determine not only
upon questions of Colonial Law in Planta-
tion cases, but to sit also as judges, in the
last resort, of all Prize causes. The point,
however, to which I more immediately
address myself on this head is, that they
hear and decide upon all our Plantation


FEB. 7, 1828. 154





State of the Courts of Common Law.


appeals. They are thus made the supreme
judges, in the last resort, over every one
of our foreign settlements, whether situated
in those immense territories which you
possess in the East, where you and a trad-
ing company together rule over not less
than seveiity millions of subjects; or are
established among those rich and populous
islands which stud the Indian Ocean, and
form the great Eastern Archipelago; or
have their stations in those lands, part
lying within the Tropics, part stretching
towards the Pole, peopled by various castes
differing widely in habits, still more widely
in privileges, great in numbers, abounding
in wealth, extremely unsettled in their
notions of right, and excessively litigious,
as all the children of the New World are
supposed to be, both from their physical
and political constitution. All this im-
mense jurisdiction over the rights of pro-
perty and person, over rights political and
legal, and all the questions growing out of
such a vast and varied province, is exercised
by the privy council unaided and alone.
It is obvious that, from the mere distance
of those colonies, and the immense variety
of matters arising in them, foreign to our
habits, and beyond the scope of our know-
ledge, any judicial tribunal in this country
must, of necessity, be an extremely inade-
quate court of review. But what adds
incredibly to the difficulty is, that hardly
any two of the colonies can be named
which have the same law; and in the
greater number the law is wholly unlike
our own. In some settlements, it is the
Dutch law, in others the Spanish, in others
the French, in others the Danish. In our
Eastern possessions these variations are, if
possible, yet greater: while one territory
is swayed by the Mohammedan law, ano-
ther is ruled by the native or Hindu law,
and this again, in some of our possessions,
is qualified or superseded by the law of
Budda, the English jurisprudence being
confined to the handful of British settlers,
and the inhabitants of the three presi-
dencies. All these laws must come, in
their turns, in review, before the necessarily
ignorant privy councillor, after the learned
doctors in each have differed. The diffi-
culty thus arising of necessity from our
distance, an unavoidable incident to our
colonial empire, may almost be deemed
an incapacity, for it involves both ignorance
of the law, and unfitness to judge of the
facts. But so much the more anxious
should we be to remove every unnecessary


obstacle to right judgment, and to use all
the correctives in our power. The judges
should be men of the largest legal and
general information, accustomed to study
other systems of law beside our own, and
associated with lawyers who have practised
and presided in the colonial courts. They
should be assisted by a bar limiting its
practice, for the most part, to this Appeal
Court, at any rate making it their principal
object. To counteract, in some degree,
the delays necessarily arising from the dis-
tance of the courts below, and give ainple
time for patient inquiry into so dark and
difficult matters, the Court of Review
should sit frequently arid regularly at all
seasons. Because all these precautions
would still leave much to wish for, that
is no kind of reason why you should iot
anxiously adopt them. On the contrary,
it is your bounden duty, among those
countless millions whom you desire to go-
vern all over the globe, not to suffer a
single unnecessary addition to the init itable
impediments which the remote position of
the seat of empire throws in the way of
correct and speedy justice. Widely differ-
ent are our arrangements. The privy
council, which ought to be held more
regularly than any other court, sits far less
constantly than any, having neither a re-
gular bench nor a regular bar. It only
meets on certain extraordinary days-the
30th of January, the Feast of the Ptrifica-
tion, some day in May, Midsummer-day,
and a few others. I find, on an average
of twelve years, ending 1826, it sat in each
year nine days, to dispose of all the ap-
peals from all the British subjects in India;
from our own civil courts, to the jurisdic-
tion of which all our subjects are locally
amenable, throughout the wide ektent of
the several presidencies of Calcutta, Bom-
bay, and Madras; to dispose of all the
causes which come up from the three
several native courts of last resort, the
Sudder Adawluts, from the two inferior
courts of Zilla and Circuit, comprising all
contested suits between the Hindoos, the
half-caste people, and the Mahomedan
inhabitants. But in the same nine days
are to be disposed of, all the appeals froii
Ceylon, the Mauritius, the Cape, and New
Holland; from our colonies in the West
Indies and in North America; from our
settlements in the Mediterranean, and frori
the islands in the Channel;-rniie days
sittings are deemed sufficient for the de-
cision of the whole. But nine days ti


155 HO USE OF COMMONS,





State of the Courts of Common Law.


not suffice, nor any thing like it, for this
purpose; and the summary 1 have in my
hand demonstrates it both by what it
contains, and by what it does not. It
appears that, in all those twelve years
taken together, the appeals have amounted
to but few in number. 1 marvel that they
are so few-and yet I marvel not; for, in
point of fact, you have no adequate tribunal
to dispose of them; and the want of such
a tribunal is an absolute denial of justice
to the native subjects of the Crown in
those colonies. The total number is only
467; but, including about 50, which came
from India, and appear not to have been
regularly entered, though they are still
undisposed of, there are 517. Of these
243 only have beeii disposed of; but only
129 have been heard, for the others were
either compromised from hopelessness
owing to the delay which had intervened
between the appeal and the sentence, or
dismissed for want of prosecution. Con-
sequently, the privy council must have
heard ten or eleven appeals only per year,
or little more than one in the course of
each day's sitting. Again, of the 129
which were heard and disposed of, no less
than 56 were decided against the original
sentences, being altered, but, generally
speaking, wholly reversed. Now, 56 out
of 129 is a very large proportion, little less
than one half; and clearly shows that the
limited number of appeals must have risen,
not from the want of cases where revision
was required, but from the apprehension
of finding no adequate court of review, or
no convenient despatch of business. And
that the sentences in the colonies should
oftentimes be found ill-digested, or hasty,
or ignorant, can be no matter of astonish-
ment, when we find a bold lieutenant-
general Lord Chancellor in one court, and
an enterprising captain president in ano-
ther; and a worthy major officiating as
judge-advocate in a third. In many of
these cases, a learned and gallant Lord
Chancellor has decided, in the court below,
points of the greatest legal nicety; and
the Judges of Appeal, who are to set him
right here, are chosen without much more
regard to legal aptitude; for you are not
to suppose that the business of these nine
days upon which they sit is all transacted
before lawyers: one lawyer there may be,
but the rest are laymen. Certainly a right
honourable gentleman whom I see opposite
to me is there sometimes by chance, and
his presence is sure to be attended with


great advantage to us. Occasionally we
see him or my learned friend, his prede-
cessor (Mr. Abercromby), but this good
fortune is rare; the Master of the Rolls
alone is always to be seen there, of the
lawyers; for the rest, one meets sometimes
in company with him, an elderly and most
respectable gentleman, who has formerly
been an ambassador, and was a governor
with much credit to himself in difficult
times; and now and then a junior Lord of
the Admiralty, who has been neither am-
bassador nor lawyer, but would be ex-
ceedingly fit for both functions, only that
he happened to be educated for neither.
And such, Sir, is the constitution of that
awful Privy Council which sits at West-
minster, making up, for its distance from
the suitors, by the regularity of its sittings,
and for its ignorance of local laws and
usages, by the extent and variety of its
general law learning; this is the court
which determines, without appeal, and in
a manner the most summary that can be
conceived in this country, all those most
important matters which come before it.
For instance, I once saw property worth
thirty thousand pounds sterling per annum,
disposed of in a few minutes, after the
arguments at the bar ended, by the learned
members of the Privy Council, who reversed
a sentence pronounced by all the judges
in the settlement, upon no less than nine-
teen days most anxious discussion. Such
court, whose decisions are without ap-
peal,-irreversible, unless by act of par-
liament-is the supreme tribunal which
dispenses the law to eighty millions of
people, and disposes of their property.
I cannot pass from this subject without
relating a fact which illustrates the con-
sequences of the delays necessarily inci-
dent to such a jurisdiction. The Ranee,
or queen of Ramnad, having died, a ques-
tion arose among the members of her
family, respecting the succession to the
vacant musnud (or throne), and to the per-
sonal property of the deceased sovereign,
as well as the territorial revenue. The
situation of the country, as well as its po-
pulation and wealth, render it a province
of some note. It reckons four hundred
thousand inhabitants, and it lies in the
direct road which the pilgrims from the
south of India take to the sanctuary in
the island of Remisram, frequented by
them as much as the Juggernaut is by
those of the north. On the death of her
highness in 1809, proceedings commenced


FvB. 7,, 1828. 1688





159 HOUSE OF COMMONS, State of the Courts of Common Law. 160
in the courts below, upon the disputed But I know also that your present mode
succession; an appeal to the king in of administering justice to these native
counsel was lodged in 1814; it is still subjects, is such as I can hardly speak of
pending. And what has been the conse- without shame. Look at your local judges
quence of this delay of justice? Why, -at their fitness for judicial functions.
that the kingdom of Ramnad has been all A young writer goes out to India; he is
this time in the keeping of sheriffs' offi- appointed a judge, and he repairs to his
cers, excepting the honourable company's station, to make money, by distributing
peshcush, or share of the revenues, which, justice, if he can, but, at all events, to
I have no manner of doubt, has been faith- make money. In total ignorance of the
fully exacted to the last rupee. It is strictly manners, the customs, the prejudices,
in what amounts to the same thing as the possibly of the language, of those upon
custody of sheriffs' officers, having been whose affairs and conduct he is to sit in
taken, as I may say, in execution; or judgment, and by whose testimony he is
rather by a kind of mesne process, such to pursue his inquiries, and very possibly
as we have not in our law. equally uninformed of the laws he is to
As the papers on the table, to which I administer-he must needs be wholly de-
have referred, show so much fewer appeals pendent upon his Pundit for direction both
from the plantations than might have been as to matter of fact and matter of law,
expected, it is fit now to remind the and, most probably, becomes a blind pas-
House how equivocal a symptom this is of sive tool in the hands of a designing mi-
full justice being done. It is the worst of nister.
all follies, the most iniquitous, as well as The House will not suppose that I mean
the most mistaken, kind of policy, to stop to insinuate for a moment the possibility
litigation-not by affording a cheap and of suspicion as to the wilful misconduct of
expeditious remedy, but by an absolute the judge in this difficult position. I am
denial of justice, in the difficulties which very sure that the party who may happen
distance, ignorance, expense, and delay to occupy that high office would rather cut
produce. The distance you cannot re- off his right hand, if the alternative were
move, if you would; the ignorance it is put to him, than take the bribe of a paria
hardly more practicable to get rid of: to misdecide a cause that came before him.
then, for God's sake, why not give to But I am by no means so secure of the
these your foreign subjects, what you have Pundit upon whom the judge must ne-
it in your power to bestow-a speedy and cessarily be dependent; and while he is
cheap administration of justice ? This both less trust-worthy and wholly irrespon-
improvement in the court of appeal would sible, the purity of the responsible, but
create more business, indeed, but justice passive, instrument in his hands is a thing
wouldnolongerbetaxedanddelayed, andin of perfect insignificance. The experi-
the cost and the delay be denied. Butifyou ment of trial by jury, jby which this se-
would safely, and without working injus- rious evil may in part be remedied, has
tice, stop appeals from the colonies, carry been already tried. The efforts made by
your reforms thither also : I should say, a learned judge of Ceylon, sir Alexander
for instance, that a reform of the judica- Johnson, to introduce into that colony the
tures of India would be matter most highly British system of justice, manfully sup-
deserving the consideration of his majesty's ported by the government at home, have
government. I am at a loss to know, why been attended with signal success. I am
there should be so rigorous an exclusion acquainted with a particular case, indeed,
of jury trials from the native courts of In- the details of which are too long to lay
dia. I know, and every one must know, before the House, but which showed the
who has taken the trouble to inquire, that fitness of the natives to form part of a tri-
the natives are eminently capable of apply- bunal, notwithstanding the prevalence of
ingtheir minds to the evisceration oftruthin strong prejudices in a particular instance
judicial inquiries; that they possess powers among them. A Bramin was put on his
of discrimination, ready ingenuity, and trial for murder, and a great feeling ex-
sagacity in a very high degree; and that cited against him, possibly against his
where they have been admitted so to ex- caste. Twelve of the jury were led away
ercise those powers, they have been found by this feeling, and by the very strong
most careful and intelligent assistants in case which a subtle conspiracy had con-
aiding the investigations of the judge, trived against the prisoner,-when a young






161 State of the Courts of Common Law.


Bramin, the thirteenth juror, examined
the evidence with a dexterity and judg-
ment that excited the greatest admiration,
and from his knowledge of the habits and
manners of the witnesses, together with
extraordinary natural sagacity, succeeded
in exposing the plot and saving the inno-
cent man. Other considerations there are,
less immediately connected with the ad-
ministration of justice, and which I might
press upon the House, to evince the expe-
diency of introducing our system of trial
in the East. Nothing could be better
calculated to conciliate the minds of the
natives than allowing them to form part of
the tribunals to which they are subject,
and share in administering the laws under
which they live. It would give them an
understanding of the course of public jus-
tice, and of the law by which they are
ruled ; a fellow feeling with the govern-
ment which executes it, and an interest in
supporting the system in whose powers
they participate. The effect of such a
proceeding would be, that, in India, as in
Ceylon, in the event of a rebellion, the
great mass of the people, instead of join-
ing the revolters, would give all their sup-
port to the government. This valuable,
but not costly fruit of the wise policy pur-
sued in that island, has already been ga-
thered. In 1816, the same people which,
twelve years before, had risen against your
dynasty, were found marshalled on your
side, and helping you to crush rebellion.
So will it be in the Peninsula, if you give
your subjects a share in administering your
laws, and an interest and a pride in sup-
porting you. Should the day ever come
when disaffection may appeal to seventy
millions, against a few thousand strangers,
who have planted themselves upon the
ruins of their ancient dynasties, you will
find how much safer it is to have won
their hearts, and universally cemented
their attachment by a common interest in
your system, than to rely upon one hun-
dred and fifty thousand Seapoy swords, of
excellent temper, but in doubtful hands.
v.-I now, Sir, come to the administra-
tion of law in the country, by Justices of
Peace; and I approach this jurisdiction
with fear and trembling, when I reflect on
what Mr. Windham was accustomed to
say, that he dreaded to talk of, the game-
laws in a House composed of sportsmen;
and so, too, I dread, to talk of the Quorum
in an assembly of magistrates. Surrounded
as I am with my Honourable Friends, and
VOL. XVIII,


among Honourable Members on the other
side, by gentlemen in the commission, I
own that this is a ground on which I have
some reluctance to tread. But I have to
deal with the principle only, not with the
individuals: my reflections are general,
not personal. Nevertheless, considering
the changes which have been effected in
modern times, I cannot help thinking it
worth inquiry, whether some amendment
might not be made in our justice of peace
system ? The first doubt which strikes
me is, if it be fit that they should be ap-
pointed as they are, merely by the Lords
Lieutenant of counties, without the inter-
ference of the Crown's responsible minis-
ters. It is true, that the Lord Chancellor
issues the commission, but it is the Lord
Lieutenant who designates the persons to
be comprehended in it. Such a thing is
hardly ever known as any interference
with respect to those individuals on the
part of the Lord Chancellor. He looks to
the Lord Lieutenant, or rather to the 'Cus-
tos Rotulorum,' which the Lord Lieute-
nant most frequently is (indeed every-
where but in counties Palatine), for the
names of proper persons. The Lord
Lieutenant,therefore, as CustosRotulorum,
absolutely appoints all the justices of the
peace in his county, at his sole will and
pleasure. Now 1 cannot understand what
quality is peculiar to a Keeper of the Re-
cords, that fits him, above all other men,
to say who shall be the judges of the dis-
trict whose records he keeps. I think it
would be about as convenient and natural
to let the Master of the Rolls appoint the
judges of the land; indeed, more so, for
he is lawyer; or to give the appointment
to the Keeper of the State Papers. The
Custos Rotulorum may issue a new com-
mission, too, and leave out names; I have
known it done, but I have also known it
prevented by the Great Seal; indeed, it
laid down as a rule by the late Lord Chan-
cellor Eldon, from which no consideration,
his Lordship was used to say, should in-
duce him to depart, that however unfit a
magistrate might be for his office, either
from private misconduct or party feeling,
he would never strike that magistrate off
thelist, until he had been convicted of some
offence by the verdict of a Court of Record.
Upon this principle he always acted. No
doubt his Lordship felt, Ihat, as the Ma-
gistrates gave their services gratis, they
ought to be protected; but still it is a rule
which opens the door to very serious mii.
G


FEB. 7, 1828.






163 HOUSE OF COMMONS, State of the Courts of Common Law.


chief and injustice; and I myself could,
if necessary, quote cases in which it has
been most unfortunately persevered in.
On looking, however, at the description of
persons who are put into the commission,
I am not at all satisfied that the choice is
made with competent discretion; and
upon this part of the question I may as
well declare at once, that I have very great
doubts as to the expediency of making
Clergymen magistrates. This is a course
which, whenever it can be done conve-
niently, I should certainly be glad to see
changed, unless in counties where there
are very few resident lay proprietors. My
opinion is, that a clerical magistrate, in
uniting two very excellent and useful
characters, pretty commonly spoils both;
and the combination produces what the
alchemists call a tertium quid, with very
little, indeed, of the good qualities of
either ingredient, and no little of the bad
ones of both, together with new evils su-
perinduced by the commixture. There
is the activity of the magistrate in an ex-
cessive degree-over-activity is a very high
magisterial offence, in my view-yet most
of the magistrates distinguished for over-
activity are clergymen: joined to this are
found the local hatings and likings, and,
generally, somewhat narrow-minded opi-
nions and prejudices, which are apt to
attach to the character of the resident
parish priest, one of the most valuable and
respectable if kept pure from political
contamination. There are some Lords
Lieutenant, I know, who make it a rule
never to appoint a clergyman to the ma-
gistracy ; and I entirely agree in the policy
of that course, because the education and
the habits of such gentlemen are seldom
of a worldly description, and therefore by
no means qualify them to discharge the
duties of such an office; but, generally
speaking, as the House must be aware,
through the country the practice is far
otherwise. Again, some Lords Lieutenant
appoint men for their political opinions-
some for activity as partisans in local
contests; some are so far influenced as to
keep out all who take a decided part
against themselves in matters where all
men should be free to act as their opinions
dictate; and in the exercise of this pa-
tronage no responsibility whatever sub-
stantially exists. Appointed, then, by ir-
responsible advisers, and irremovable with-
out a conviction, let us now see what is the
authority of men so chosen and so secure.


In the first place, they have the privi-
lege of granting or withholding Licences.
As we all know, it lies in the breastof two
justices of the peace to give or to refuse
this important privilege. It is in their
absolute power to give a licence to one of
the most unfit persons possible; and it is
in their power to refuse a licence to one of
the most fit persons possible. They may
continue a licence to some person who has
had it but a twelvemonth, and who, during
that twelvemonth, has made his house a
nuisance to the whole neighbourhood; or
they may take away a licence from a house
to which it has been attached for a century,
and the enjoyment of which has not only
been attended by no evil, but has been
productive of great public benefit. And
all this, be it observed, they do without
even the shadow of control. There is no
rule more certain than that a mandamus
does not lie to compel justices either to
grant or withhold a licence. I hardly ever
remember moving for one; and I only once
recollect a rule being granted-it was on
the motion of, I believe, my honourable
and learned friend, the solicitor-general.
But I know that great astonishment was
expressed on the occasion; that every one
asked what he could have stated to make
the Court listen to the application; that all
took for granted it would be discharged,
as a matter of course; which it accordingly
was, in less time than I have taken to
relate the circumstance. What other
control is there over the conduct of the
licensing magistrate ? I shall be told that
he may be proceeded against, either by a
criminal information, or by impeachment.
As to the latter, no man of common sense
would dream of impeaching a magistrate,
any more than he would think now-a-days
of impeaching a minister. Then, as to
proceeding by criminal information: In
the first place it is necessary in order to
obtain the rule, to produce affidavits, that
the magistrate has been influenced by wil-
ful and corrupt motives: not merely
affidavits of belief in those who swear, but
of facts proving him guilty of malversation
in his office. Then, suppose, as not unfre-
quently happens, a rule obtained on this
ex parte statement; the magistrate answers
the charges on oath; he swears last, and
may touch many points never anticipated
by the other party, consequently not
answered; and unless the alleged facts
remain, upon the discussion, undeniable,
and the guilt to be inferred from them






165 State of the Courts of Common Law.


seems as clear as the light of day, the rule
is discharged with costs. The difficulty
of proving corruption is rendered almost
insuperable, because all the magistrate has
to do, in order to defend himself from the
consequences of granting or withholding a
licence, is to adopt the short course of
saying nothing at the time-of keeping
his own counsel-of abstaining from any
statement of his reasons. Let him only
give no reason for his conduct, and no
power on earth can touch him. He may
grant a licence to a common brothel, or he
may refuse a licence to one of the most
respectable inns on the North road; let
him withhold his reasons, and his conduct
remains unquestionable; although the real
motive by which he is actuated may be,
that he is in the habit of using the one
house, and that the landlord of the other
will not suffer him to use it in the same
way. Unless you can show that he has
himself stated his motives, or that there are
circumstances so strong against him as
amount to conviction, you are prevented
from even instituting an inquiry on the
subject. Thus absolute is the authority of
the magistrate with regard to licensing.
With the permission of the House, in
order to illustrate the abuse of this exten-
sive power, I will read a letter which I
received some time ago on the subject of
the licensing system, from one of the most
worthy and learned individuals in this
country-a man of large fortune, and of
most pure and estimable character-who
long acted as a magistrate in one of the
neighboring counties.
[Mr. B. here read a letter, in which the
tendency of justices is stated to favour
particular houses, and not take away their
licences, though guilty of the grossest
irregularities, on the pretence, become a
maxim with many of them, that "the
house being brick and mortar cannot
offend;" whereas a haunt of bad company
being established, it becomes the magis-
trate's duty to break it up. It was also
shown how the power of licensing placed
millions of property at the disposal of the
justices, a licence easily adding 5001. to
the value of a lease, and often much more,
and the number of victuallers exceeding
forty thousand. It further showed the
partiality of the bench towards brewers and
their houses, especially in Middlesex and
the home counties.]
I have received variety of other informa-
tion upon this subject, all leading to the


same result. That which I have described
-the leaning of justices towards brewers,
whom, in licensing, they favour, as brother
magistrates, although the latter are not
allowed by law to preside at a Brewster
sessions, is, perhaps, the most crying evil
connected with the system; but who does
not know (I am sure I do, in more parts
of the kingdom than one or two), that
licences are granted, and refused, from
election motives ? When, some time ago,
I brought the Beer bill into this House, I
had, of course, an extensive correspondence
on the subject; and I was assured by many
highly respectable persons, that the evil of
this system is by no means confined to the
neighbourhood of London, of which they
gave me numerous instances. Nor is the
licensing power of the magistracy that in
which alone great abuses exist. They
prevail wheresoever their authority is exer-
cised ; in the commitments for offences
against the game-laws, in dealing with
petty offences against property, in taking
cognizance of little assaults, especially on
officers, in summary convictions for non-
payment of tithes, and a number of other
matters affecting the liberties and property
of the subject; and yet, for their conduct
in all of which they are not amenable to
any superior power, provided, as I have said
before, they only keep theirown counsel, and
abstain from stating the reasons by which
they have been actuated, should their
motives be evil.
There is not a worse constituted tribunal
on the face of the earth, not before the
Turkish cadi, than that at which summary
convictions on the game-laws take place;
I mean a bench or a brace of sporting
justices. I am far from saying that, on
such subjects, they are actuated by corrupt
motives ; but they are undoubtedly insti-
gated by their abhorrence of that caput
lupinum that hostis humani generis, as an
honourable friend of mine once called him
in his place, that fera naturce-a poacher.
From their decisions on those points,
where their passions are the most likely to
mislead them, no appeal in reality lies; for,
unless they set out any matter illegal on
the face of the conviction, you remove the
record in vain. Equally supreme are they
in cases where sitting in a body at quarter
sessions, they decide upon the most im-
portant rights of liberty and property. Let
it be remembered, that they can sentence
to almost unlimited imprisonment, to whip-
ping, to fine, nay, to transportation for
G2


FrB. 7, 1828. 166





State of the Courts of Common Law.


seven and fourteen years. I have shuddered
to see the way in which these extensive
powers are sometimes exercised by a juris-
diction not responsible for its acts. It is
said, that the magistracy ought not to be
responsible, because it is not paid ; but we
ought not to forget, that as gold itself may
be bought too dear, so may economy;
money may be saved at too high a price.
Mark the difference of responsibility be-
tween the quarter-sessions and one of the
superior courts of the kingdom. In the
King's-bench, the name of the judge who
pronounces the judgment is known, and
the venerable magistrate stands before the
country in his own proper person, always
placed at the bar of public opinion. Here
it is Lord Tenterden-it is Mr. Justice
Bailey, by their names: in the other case,
it is merely the quarter-sessions, which, as
Swift says, is nobody's name. The indi-
vidual magistrates composing it are not
thought of-their names are not even pub-
lished. It is a fluctuating body. If the
same individuals always sat in the court,
there might be some approach to responsi-
bility. At present there is none; and
where there is no responsibility, injustice
will occasionally be committed, as long as
men are men. It would be some correc-
tion of the evil, if the number of magis-
trates was fixed; if their names were al-
ways known in connexion with their acts;
and if they were more easily removable on
proof of their misconduct. Then comes
the question,-is it, after all, gratuitous
service? We are told that we cannot visit
them severely, or even watch them very
strictly, because they volunteer their duty,
and receive no remuneration for their
trouble. But although they have no money
for it, they may have money'sworth. Cheap
justice, Sir, is a very good thing; but costly
justice is much better than cheap injustice.
If I saw clearly the means by which the
magistrates could be paid, and by which,
therefore, a more correct discharge of the
magisterial duties might be insured, I would
certainly prefer paying them in money to
allowing them to receive money's worth by
jobs, and other violations of their duty.
Not only may the magistrate himself
receive compensation as money's worth;
he may receive it in hard money by his
servants. The fees of a justice's clerk
amount to a little income, often to many
times a man's wages. I have heard of a
reverend justice in the country having a
clerk whose emoluments he wished to in-


crease, and therefore he had him appointed
surveyor of weights and measures, with a
salary of a guinea and a half a week. This
person appointed a deputy, to whom he
gave five shillings and sixpence, and who
did all the duty. These circumstances
came under the consideration of his brother
justices; when, after a strenuous opposi-
tion, and among others, on the part of the
gentleman who communicated the occur-
rence in a letter now lying before me, it
was decided, not only not to remove the
first appointed person, who it was proved
was doing nothing, but to swear in the
other as his assistant My friend is not
entirely without suspicion that this person,
having so small a remuneration as five
shillings and sixpence a week, can only
have undertaken the duty with a view of
increasing it by some understanding with
the people whose weights and measures it
is his duty to superintend. The operation
of pecuniary motives in matters connected
with the magistracy is more extensive than
may at'first sight appear. There was a bill
introduced by the right honourable gentle-
man opposite, for extending the payment
of expenses of witnesses and prosecutors
out of the county rates. It is not to be
doubted that it has greatly increased the
number of commitments, and has been the
cause of many persons being brought to
trial who ought to have been discharged
by the magistrates. The habit of commit-
ting, from this and other causes, has
grievously increased every where of late,
and especially of boys. Eighteen hundred
odd, many of them mere children, have been
committed in the Warwick district during
the last seven years. Nor is this a trifling
evil. People do not come out of gaol as
they went in. A boy may enter the prison-
gate merely as a robber of an orchard; he
may come out of it fit for"-I will not
say "treasons"-but certainly "stratagems
and spoils." Many are the inducements,
independent of any legislative encourage-
ment, to these commitments. The justice
thinks he gains credit by them. He has
the glory of being commemorated at the
assizes before the Lord Judge, and the
Sheriff, and the Grand Jury, and all who
read the Crown Calendar. On that solemn
occasion he has the gratification of hearing
it fly from mouth to mouth-" He is a
monstrous good magistrate; no man com-
mits so many persons." Then there is the
lesser glory acquired among neighbours;
into whose pockets they are the means of


167 HOUSE OF COMMONS,






169 State of the Courts of Common Law.


putting money, by making them prose- he chooses, by some indiscretion, to make
cutors and witnesses in petty criminal himself so, amenable to a higher and purer
cases; and thus converting (as sir Eardly judicature. The judges of the land,
Wilmot says) their journey of duty into a chosen from the professors of the law, after
jaunt of pleasure to the assizes. The the labours of a life previously devoted to
reputation of activity is very seducing to a the acquirement of knowledge calculated
magistrate; but I have known it curiously to fit them for their office, and clothed
combined with things more solid than with attributes of supreme power over
empty praise.-In a certain town, which I petty magistrates, are responsible for every
am well acquainted with, one suburb was word and act, and are subject to every
peopled by Irishmen and Scots, who were species of revision and control. They
wont to fight on every market time a good were selected with the most anxious caution
deal, at fair tides a good deal more, but for every qualification of high character
without any serious affray taking place. and of profound knowledge; and yet they
Besides these two classes of the King's are incapable of pronouncing a single deci-
subjects, there also dwelt in those parts sion, from which an appeal will not lie to
two justices of the King, assigned to keep some other tribunal immediately above
the peace; for the better keeping of which, them; while, from the decision of the
they repaired at the hour of fight to an country justices-taken from the commu-
ale-house, conveniently situated hard by nity at hazard, or recommended by the
the scene of action, and there took their habits least calculated to make them just,
seat with a punch-bowl full of warrants, subject to no personal responsibility, be-
ready to fill up. If the Irish happened to cause beyond or below the superintendence
be victorious, the Scots came one after of public opinion, and irremovable, unless
another, and applied for commitments, by a verdict for some indictable offence-
against those who had assaulted them. The from their decision there is no appeal; from
despatch, at least with which warrants, if their decision, although they have to deal
not justice, were administered, was notable, with some of the most important interests
Then came the other party, and swore to in the country, there is no appeal, unless
as many assaults upon them, and, justice their misdeeds shall have been set forth in
being even-handed, they, too, had their de- a case, submitted by their own free will,
sire gratified; until the bowl was, by degrees, with their express permission, to the Court
emptied of its paper investment, and a me- of King's Bench.
tallic currency, by degrees, took its place. These are the principal points to which,
Some of these details may be ludicrous ; in the first division of my subject, I desire
but the general subject is a most serious to call the attention of the House, as de-
and a most important one, because these serving your deliberate consideration, and
facts show the manner in which justice is as the materials of solemn inquiry. I could
administered to the people out of sight of have wished to accomplish my object
the public and out of reach of the higher more briefly, but I found it impossible con-
courts of law. It is through the magis- sistently with distinctness; I am not aware
tracy, more than through any other agency that I have made an unnecessary com-
-except, indeed, that of the tax-gatherer ment; and I must trust to the candour of
-that the people are brought directly into honourable members, in weighing the im-
contact with the government of the coun- portance of these statements, to pardon
try; and this isthe measure of justice with the apparent prolixity unavoidably in-
which, when they approach it, they are cident to the handling of a very extensive
treated by functionaries irresponsible for and varied argument.
its proceedings. A justice of the peace, II. I wish I could give the House any
whether in his own parlour or on the bench promise that my speech was approaching
-whether employed in summary convic- its termination; but that hope can hardly
tions, or in enforcing what is called, after be entertained, when I state, that I am
a very worthy friend of mine, Mr. Nichol- now about to enter on the still more vast
son Calvert's Act (one of the worst in the and momentous consideration of the
Statute-book, which I hope to see repealed, laws as administered in those tribunals,
and which I trust its excellent author will whose construction we have been surveying
very long survive,)-is never an ostensible -the distribution of justice in those courts
individual; responsible in his own proper in which it has been my fortune to practise
person to public opinion hardly ever, unless during a pretty long professional lie.


FrE. 7, 1828. 170




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