• TABLE OF CONTENTS
HIDE
 Title Page
 Table of Contents
 Title Page
 March 1926
 April 1826
 May 1826
 Appendix
 Index to debates
 Index of names














Group Title: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Title: The parliamentary debates
ALL VOLUMES CITATION THUMBNAILS PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00073533/00015
 Material Information
Title: The parliamentary debates
Uniform Title: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Physical Description: 20 v. : ; 25 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Great Britain -- Parliament
Hansard, T. C ( Thomas Curson ), 1776-1833
Publisher: Published under the superintendence of T.C. Hansard
Place of Publication: London
Publication Date: 1820-1829
 Subjects
Subject: Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Great Britain -- 1820-1830   ( lcsh )
 Notes
Dates or Sequential Designation: New ser., v. 1 (1820)-v. 20 (1829).
Numbering Peculiarities: Covers Mar. 1820-Feb./Mar. 1829.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00073533
Volume ID: VID00015
Source Institution: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 07655703
lccn - sn 85062629
 Related Items
Preceded by: Parliamentary debates for the year 1803 to the present time
Succeeded by: Hansard's parliamentary debates

Table of Contents
    Title Page
        Title Page
    Table of Contents
        Table of Contents 1
        Table of Contents 2
        Table of Contents 3
        Table of Contents 4
        Table of Contents 5
        Table of Contents 6
    Title Page
        Title Page
    March 1926
        House of Commons - Monday, March 20
            Page 1
            Page 3-4
            Page 5-6
            Page 7-8
            Page 9-10
            Page 11-12
            Page 13-14
            Page 15-16
            Page 17-18
            Page 19-20
            Page 21-22
            Page 23-24
            Page 25-26
            Page 27-28
            Page 29-30
            Page 31-32
            Page 33-34
        House of Lords - Tuesday, March 21
            Page 35-36
            Page 37-38
            Page 39-40
            Page 41-42
            Page 33-34
        House of Commons - Tuesday, March 21
            Page 43-44
            Page 45-46
            Page 47-48
            Page 41-42
            Page 49-50
            Page 51-52
            Page 53-54
            Page 55-56
            Page 57-58
            Page 59-60
            Page 61-62
            Page 63-64
            Page 65-66
            Page 67-68
            Page 69-70
        House of Commons - Wednesday, March 22
            Page 71-72
            Page 73-74
            Page 75-76
            Page 77-78
            Page 79-80
            Page 81-82
            Page 83-84
            Page 85-86
            Page 69-70
        House of Commons - Thursday, March 23
            Page 87-88
            Page 89-90
            Page 85-86
    April 1826
        House of Commons - Thursday, April 6
            Page 91-92
            Page 89-90
            Page 93-94
            Page 95-96
            Page 97-98
            Page 99-100
            Page 101-102
            Page 103-104
            Page 105-106
            Page 107-108
        House of Commons - Friday, April 7
            Page 109-110
            Page 111-112
            Page 113-114
            Page 115-116
            Page 117-118
            Page 119-120
            Page 121-122
            Page 123-124
            Page 107-108
            Page 125-126
            Page 127-128
            Page 129-130
            Page 131-132
        House of Lords - Monday, April 10
            Page 131-132
        House of Commons - Monday, April 10
            Page 133-134
            Page 135-136
            Page 137-138
            Page 139-140
            Page 141-142
            Page 143-144
            Page 145-146
            Page 147-148
            Page 149-150
            Page 131-132
        House of Lords - Tuesday, April 11
            Page 151-152
            Page 153-154
            Page 155-156
            Page 149-150
        House of Commons - Thursday, April 13
            Page 157-158
            Page 159-160
            Page 155-156
            Page 161-162
            Page 163-164
            Page 165-166
            Page 167-168
            Page 169-170
            Page 171-172
            Page 173-174
            Page 175-176
            Page 177-178
            Page 179-180
            Page 181-182
            Page 183-184
            Page 185-186
            Page 187-188
            Page 189-190
            Page 191-192
            Page 193-194
            Page 195-196
            Page 197-198
            Page 199-200
            Page 201-202
        House of Lords - Friday, April 14
            Page 203-204
            Page 205-206
            Page 207-208
            Page 209-210
            Page 211-212
            Page 213-214
            Page 215-216
            Page 217-218
            Page 201-202
        House of Commons - Friday, April 14
            Page 219-220
            Page 221-222
            Page 223-224
            Page 225-226
            Page 227-228
            Page 229-230
            Page 231-232
            Page 217-218
            Page 233-234
            Page 235-236
            Page 237-238
            Page 239-240
            Page 241-242
            Page 243-244
        House of Lords - Monday, April 17
            Page 245-246
            Page 247-248
            Page 249-250
            Page 251-252
            Page 253-254
            Page 255-256
            Page 257-258
            Page 259-260
            Page 261-262
            Page 263-264
            Page 243-244
        House of Commons - Monday, April 17
            Page 265-266
            Page 267-268
            Page 269-270
            Page 271-272
            Page 273-274
            Page 275-276
            Page 277-278
            Page 279-280
            Page 281-282
            Page 283-284
            Page 285-286
            Page 287-288
            Page 289-290
            Page 291-292
            Page 293-294
        House of Lords - Tuesday, April 18
            Page 295-296
            Page 297-298
            Page 293-294
        House of Commons - Tuesday, April 18
            Page 299-300
            Page 297-298
            Page 301-302
            Page 303-304
            Page 305-306
            Page 307-308
            Page 309-310
            Page 311-312
            Page 313-314
            Page 315-316
            Page 317-318
            Page 319-320
            Page 321-322
            Page 323-324
            Page 325-326
            Page 327-328
            Page 329-330
            Page 331-332
            Page 333-334
            Page 335-336
            Page 337-338
            Page 339-340
            Page 341-342
            Page 343-344
            Page 345-346
            Page 347-348
            Page 349-350
            Page 351-352
            Page 353-354
            Page 355-356
            Page 357-358
            Page 359-360
            Page 361-362
            Page 363-364
            Page 365-366
            Page 367-368
            Page 369-370
            Page 371-372
        House of Commons - Wednesday, April 19
            Page 373-374
            Page 375-376
            Page 377-378
            Page 379-380
            Page 381-382
            Page 383-384
            Page 371-372
        House of Lords - Thursday, April 20
            Page 385-386
            Page 387-388
            Page 389-390
            Page 391-392
            Page 393-394
            Page 383-384
            Page 395-396
        House of Commons - Thursday, April 20
            Page 397-398
            Page 399-400
            Page 401-402
            Page 403-404
            Page 405-406
            Page 395-396
            Page 407-408
            Page 409-410
            Page 411-412
            Page 413-414
            Page 415-416
            Page 417-418
            Page 419-420
            Page 421-422
            Page 423-424
            Page 425-426
            Page 427-428
            Page 429-430
            Page 431-432
            Page 433-434
            Page 435-436
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            Page 453-454
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            Page 457-458
            Page 459-460
            Page 461-462
            Page 463-464
            Page 465-466
            Page 467-468
            Page 469-470
            Page 471-472
            Page 473-474
            Page 475-476
            Page 477-478
            Page 479-480
            Page 481-482
            Page 483-484
            Page 485-486
            Page 487-488
            Page 489-490
            Page 491-492
            Page 493-494
            Page 495-496
            Page 497-498
            Page 499-500
            Page 501-502
            Page 503-504
            Page 505-506
            Page 507-508
            Page 509-510
            Page 511-512
            Page 513-514
            Page 515-516
            Page 517-518
            Page 519-520
            Page 521-522
            Page 523-524
            Page 525-526
            Page 527-528
            Page 529-530
            Page 531-532
        House of Lords - Friday, April 21
            Page 533-534
            Page 531-532
        House of Commons - Friday, April 21
            Page 533-534
            Page 535-536
            Page 537-538
            Page 539-540
            Page 541-542
            Page 543-544
            Page 545-546
            Page 547-548
            Page 549-550
            Page 551-552
            Page 553-554
            Page 555-556
            Page 557-558
        House of Lords - Tuesday, April 25
            Page 559-560
            Page 561-562
            Page 557-558
        House of Commons - Tuesday, April 25
            Page 563-564
            Page 561-562
            Page 565-566
            Page 567-568
            Page 569-570
            Page 571-572
            Page 573-574
            Page 575-576
            Page 577-578
            Page 579-580
            Page 581-582
            Page 583-584
            Page 585-586
            Page 587-588
            Page 589-590
            Page 591-592
            Page 593-594
            Page 595-596
            Page 597-598
            Page 599-600
            Page 601-602
            Page 603-604
            Page 605-606
            Page 607-608
            Page 609-610
            Page 611-612
            Page 613-614
            Page 615-616
            Page 617-618
            Page 619-620
            Page 621-622
            Page 623-624
            Page 625-626
            Page 627-628
            Page 629-630
            Page 631-632
            Page 633-634
        House of Commons - Wednesday, April 26
            Page 635-636
            Page 637-638
            Page 639-640
            Page 641-642
            Page 643-644
            Page 645-646
            Page 647-648
            Page 649-650
            Page 633-634
        House of Commons - Thursday, April 27
            Page 651-652
            Page 653-654
            Page 655-656
            Page 657-658
            Page 659-660
            Page 661-662
            Page 663-664
            Page 649-650
            Page 665-666
            Page 667-668
            Page 669-670
            Page 671-672
            Page 673-674
            Page 675-676
            Page 677-678
            Page 679-680
            Page 681-682
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            Page 689-690
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            Page 695-696
            Page 697-698
            Page 699-700
            Page 701-702
            Page 703-704
            Page 705-706
            Page 707-708
            Page 709-710
            Page 711-712
            Page 713-714
            Page 715-716
            Page 717-718
            Page 719-720
        House of Lords - Friday, April 28
            Page 721-722
        House of Commons - Friday, April 28
            Page 721-722
            Page 723-724
            Page 725-726
            Page 727-728
            Page 729-730
            Page 731-732
            Page 733-734
            Page 735-736
            Page 737-738
            Page 739-740
            Page 741-742
    May 1826
        House of Lords - Monday, May 1
            Page 743-744
            Page 745-746
            Page 747-748
            Page 749-750
            Page 751-752
            Page 753-754
            Page 755-756
            Page 757-758
            Page 759-760
            Page 741-742
            Page 761-762
            Page 763-764
        House of Commons - Monday, May 1
            Page 765-766
            Page 767-768
            Page 769-770
            Page 771-772
            Page 773-774
            Page 763-764
        House of Lords - Tuesday, May 2
            Page 775-776
            Page 777-778
            Page 773-774
        House of Commons - Tuesday, May 2
            Page 779-780
            Page 777-778
            Page 781-782
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            Page 825-826
            Page 827-828
            Page 829-830
            Page 831-832
        House of Commons - Thursday, May 4
            Page 833-834
            Page 835-836
            Page 837-838
            Page 839-840
            Page 841-842
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        House of Lords - Friday, May 5
            Page 899-900
            Page 901-902
            Page 903-904
            Page 905-906
            Page 907-908
            Page 897-898
        House of Commons - Friday, May 5
            Page 909-910
            Page 911-912
            Page 913-914
            Page 915-916
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            Page 955-956
        House of Lords - Monday, May 8
            Page 957-958
            Page 959-960
            Page 955-956
        House of Commons - Monday, May 8
            Page 961-962
            Page 959-960
            Page 963-964
            Page 965-966
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        House of Commons - Tuesday, May 9
            Page 1005-1006
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        House of Lords - Thursday, May 11
            Page 1055-1056
            Page 1057-1058
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        House of Commons - Friday, May 19
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        House of Lords - Wednesday, May 31
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    Appendix
        Page i
        Page ii
        Page iii
        Page iv
        Page v
        Page vi
        Page vii
        Page viii
        Page ix
        Page x
        Page xi
        Page xii
        Page xiii
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        Page xix
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        Page xxv
        Page xxvi
        Page xxvii
        Page xxviii
        Page xxix
    Index to debates
        Index
    Index of names
        Index 1
        Index 2
        Index 3
        Index 4
Full Text



THE


PARLIAMENTARY



DEBATES:


FORMING A CONTINUATION OF THE WORK ENTITLED

THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY OF ENGLAND,

FROM THE EARLIEST PERIOD TO THE YEAR 1803."


PUBLISHED UNDER THE SUPERINTENDENCE OF

T. C. HANSARD.




COMMENCING WITI THE ACCESSION OF GEORGE IV.



V O L. XV.

COMPRISING THE PERIOD
FROM
THE TWENTIETH DAY OF MARCH,
TO
THE THIRTY-FIRST DAY OF MAY, 1826.




LONDON:

Printed 4y (C. e. Oanarbt at tue pater'norgterniote pre##,
FOR BALDWIN, CRADOCK, AND JOY; J. BOOKER; LONGMAN, REES, ORME, AND :.
J. M. RICHARDSON; KINGSBURY AND CO.; J. HATCHARD AND SON; J. RIDG, V'
AND SONS; E. JEFFERY AND SON; RODWELL AND MARTIN; R. H. EV/
BUDD AND CALKIN; J. BOOTH; AND T. C. HANSARD.

S127.,














TABLE OF CONTENTS

TO

VOLUME XV.

N E W S ER I E S.





1. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS,
LORDS. V. PETITIONS.
II. DEBATES IN TrHE HOUSE OF V
COMMONS. VI. REPORTS.
COMMONS.
III. KING'S SPEECHES. VII. LISTS.



I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
1826. Page
Mar. 21. Irish Charter Schools .................................................. 34
Corn Laws ......................................... .............. 36
Bank Notes payable where issued .................................. 40
April 10. Local Payment of Bank Notes Bill ................................ 131
11. Preventive Service ..................................................... 150
14. Slavery in the West Indies-Memorial of the Assembly of
Antigua .................................................................. 202
Corn Laws ............................................................... 207
Local payment of Bank Notes ...................................... 210
17. Roman Catholic Emancipation ...................................... 244
Lord Suffield's Motion on Slavery in the West Indies............ 248
18. Corn Laws ................................. .......................... 293
20. Affairs of Greece ...................................................... 384
Petition of West-India Merchants for Protection of their
Property ............................................................... 385
21. Roman Catholic Association ......................................... 532
25. Promissory Notes Local Payment Bill ............................. 558
28. Tithes-Parish of St. Olave ......................................... 721
May 1. Corn Laws-Distress of the Manufacturing Districts ........... 742
2. Corn Laws ............................................................ 774
5. Irish Charter Schools ................................................... 897
8. Corn Laws-Mr. Jacob's Report ................................... 956
Catholic Claims ......................................................... 958


- s -n-- =---s ~ --






TABLE OF CONTENTS.


II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Page
March20. Juries in India Bill ....................................... ......... 1
Education in Ireland ...................................... ........ 2
Irish Estimates ............................................................ 24,
Tolls and Customs at Fairs and Markets in Ireland ............. 30
21. Forgery of Bank of England Notes ............................. 42
State of Prisons in Scotland ....................................... 45
First Fruits in Ireland ................................................. 4-7
Charing Cross Improvement Bill .................................. 62
Civil Contingencies-Diplomatic Services ..................... 69
22. Patent Rights-Petition of C. Broderip, for better Security of 70
Welch Mining Company Bill ......................................... 76
Education of the Poor of Ireland .................................. 81
National Picture Gallery.................................. ........... 85
23. Larceny Bill ..................................... ...................... 85
Criminal Justice Bill .................................................. 86
Public Charities in Ireland ........................................... 86
Education of the Poor of Ireland ................................... 88
April 6. Liverpool and Manchester Railway Bill .......................... 89
Sheriff of Durham Bill ............................................... 94
Salary of the President of the Board of Trade .................. 95
7. Juries in India Bill .................................... ............... 107
Scilly Islands-Petition of the Inhabitants respecting Subscrip-
tion for their Relief ............................................. 108
Salary of the President of the Board of Trade .................. 109
10. Salary of the President of the Board of Trade ................ 132
13. Banking System in Scotland ....................................... 155
Licensing System-Petition of Dr. Edwards .................... 157
Mr. Abcrcromby's Motion on the State of the Representation
of Edinburgh ......................................................... 163
Westminster Abbey ........................... ............ ........ 191
Bribery at Elections ill.............................................. 202
14. Forgery of Bank Notes ................................................ 218
Slavery in Antigua-Memorial of Council and House of As-
sem bly ................................................................. 219
Education of the Poor in Ireland-Petition of Roman Catholics 227
Bank Charter Amendment Bill ....................................... 236
17. London Corn Exchange Bill ...................................... 265
Corn Laws-Importation of Foreign Grain-London Petition 269
Foreign i.,, --Petition i"onr Sunderland for a Duty on ... 272
Religious Freedom-Petition respecting ......................... 275
Exclusion-from Court of Chancery-Pettiton of G. Farquharson 276
Usury Laws Repeal Bill .......................................... 280
Exchenuer Bills ......... ............................. 281
Criminal Justice il ........................,..... .......,... .284







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Apiil 17. Larceny Laws Bill ......................................... .... 291
18. Contempt of Court of Chancery-Petition of W. Richardson 298
Mr. Whitmore's Motion on the State of the Corn Laws......... 318
19. Itinerant Parliaments ................................... .............. 371
Resolutions relative to Private-Bill Committees .................. 371
National Gallery ........................ ...... .................. 382
20. Mr. Jacob's Report on the Trade in Corn, and on the Agri.
culture of Northern Europe .................................... 396
Petition of West-India Merchants for Protection of their
Property ............................. ................................. 489
Aliens Registration Bill ............................................... 498
Slave Population in Demerara and Berbice ....................... 502
Cruelty to Dogs ...................................................... 530
21. Licensed Victuallers ...... .......................................... 534
Court of Chancery-Delay in Taxation of Costs .................. 535
Proclamations-Irish Newspapers ................................... 539
Church Rates (Ireland) Bill ......................................... 544
25. Tythes-Petition from the Parish of St. Olave.................... 561
Petition from Roman Catholics of Ireland for Removal of
D disabilities ............................................ ............. 566
West-India Property-Pctition of A. H. Beaumont for Pro-
tection of ............................................................. 577
Administration of Justice in the West Indies .................. 587
Counsel for Persons prosecuted for Felony ....................... 589
26. County Elections................................. .................... 633
Elective Franchise-Petition from Rye for Extension of........ 636
Burmese War ............................................................ 647
27. Navigation Laws ...................................... .............. 649
Lord John Russell's Motion for a Reform of Parliament ...... 651
Thames Watermen ............................................................ 715
Stealing in Gardens and Hothouses ............................... 717
Irish Church Rates ................................................... 718
Spring Guns Bill ........................................................ 719
28. Debtor and Creditor Bill ......................................... 722
Corporate Rights in Ireland.......................................... 723
Bribery and Corruption Bill ........................................ 733
Criminal Justice Bill .................................................. 733
Wrongous Imprisonment Bill ....................................... 734
Charing Cross Improvement Bill .................................. 735
East-India Writers Bill .............................................. 736
East-India Naval Force Bill ........................................ 740
May 1. Corn Laws-Distress in the Manufacturing Districts ............ 764
2. Freeholders in Districts Bill .......................................... 777
Petition of J. Cannell, respecting Refusal of Gold Coin in ex-
change for Notes ................................................. 778
Petition of Ship Owners of London, for a Duty on Foreign
Shipping ............................................................ 780
Corn Laws....... ....................................... ............. 784
4., Currency, and the Corn Laws.....,..,,,..,,,................... 831






TABLE OF CONTEND I .
Page
M ay 4. State of the N ation .............................. ................. 841
5. Exportation of Machinery .......................................... 908
Petition of Mr. O'Connell, complaining that Lord Norbury is
superannuated ....................................................... 911
Corn Laws.......................................... ....................... 91
Corn Laws-Bonded Corn ............................................ 917
8. Corn Laws ............................................................... 959
Conduct of Lord Charles Somerset-Petition of Bishop Burnett 961
Corn Laws ...................... .................................... 971
9. Liberty of the Press in India-Petition of Mr. Buckingham ... 1004
Slave Trading, and the State of the Slaves at the Mau-
ritius ... .................................. ................... ..... .. 1014
Arrest for Debt ................................................. 1051
Warehoused Corn Bill ............................................... 1051
11. Petition of Colonel Bradley, complaining of the Conduct of
Colonel Arthur................................ ....................... 1098
Liberty of the Press in India Committee-Case of Mr.
Buckingham ..................................................... 1111
Exportation of Machinery ........................................... 118
Corn Importation Bill ................................................ 1122
12. Corn Importation Bill .................................................. 1135
Warehoused Corn Bill................................................... 1139
Navigation Laws-State of the Shipping Interest ............. 1144
17. Corn Importation Bill ..................................................1203
18. Court of Chancery ...................................................... 1205
19. High Constable of Westminster ......... .... ................... 1271
Affairs of the Greeks .................................................. 1271
Protestant Worship in Roman Catholic States.................... 1275
Currency at the Cape of Good Hope-Petition of Lieutenant
Colonel Bird................... ...................................... 1277
Government Relief to the Distressed Manufacturers ............ 1282
Mr. Brougham's Motion on the State of Slavery in the
Colonies ............................................................... 1284
26. Resolutions respecting Bribery at Elections....................... 1401
State of the Currency .................................................. 1411




Ill. KING'S SPEECHES.


May 31, KING'S SPEECH at the close of the Session .................... 1443




IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.


Finance Accounts for the year ended 5th of January 1 2 App. i







TABII? OF CC)NTENT,14


V. PETITIONS.
Page
Mar. 22. PETITION of C. Broderip, for the better Security of Patent
Rights .............................................. 70
April 7. -- of the Inhabitants of the Scilly Islands respecting
Subscription for their Relief ....................... 108
13 - from Dunse, in favour of the Banking System in
Scotland ............................................. 155
- of Dr. Edwards, respecting the Licensing System 157
14. - of the Council and House of Assembly at
Antigua ............................................... 223
17. -- from London, for a free Importation of Foreign
Grain ...... ....... .................................. 269
- from Sunderland, for a duty on Foreign Shipping 272
- for Religious Freedom ................................. 275
18. --- of W. Richardson, respecting Imprisonment for
Contempt of Court of Chancery................... 305
19. -- of the West-India Merchants, for Protection of
their Property ......................................... 386
25. - of Roman Catholics of Ireland, for Removal of
D disabilities ..................................... .... 566
- of A. H. Beaumont for Protection of West-India
Property ............................................... 577
26. -- from Rye, for Extension of the Elective Franchise. 637
May 2. - of J. Cannell, respecting Refusal of Gold Coin in
Exchange for Notes ................................ 778
- of Ship Owners of London, for a Duty on Foreign
Shipping .............................................. 780
4. - from Paisley, respecting the State of the Cur-
rency and the Corn Laws ......................... 831
8. - -of Mr. Bishop Burnett respecting Conduct of
Lord Charles Somerset at the Cape of Good
Hope.................................................. 962
19. - from White Roothing, in favour of the Greeks ...... 1274



VI. REPORTS.

Mr. Jacob's Report on the Trade in Corn, and on the Agri-
culture of the North of Europe ............... ............... 400



VII. LISTS.

Mar. 21. LIST of the Minority, on Sir John Newport's Motion re-
specting the State of the First Fruits Fund in
Ireland ................. ...................... 62
VOL. XV. b






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
April 10. LrsT of the Majority and also of the Minority, in the House
of Commons, on the Salary of the President
of the Board of Trade................................ 148
13. of the Minority, on Mr. Abercromby's Motion on the
State of the Representation of Edinburgh ...... 191
18. of the Minority on Mr. Whitmore's Motion on the
State of the Corn Laws ............................ 370
25. of the Minority on Mr. George Lamb's Motion for
granting Counsel to Persons prosecuted for
Felony .................................................. 633
27. of the Minority on Lord John Russell's Motion for a
Reform of Parliament .............................. 714
May 4. of the Minority on Mr. Hume's Motion on the State
of the Navy ............................................ 897
11. of the Minority in the House of Commons, on the Corn
Importation Bill .................................... 1135
26. of the Members of the House of Commons, who voted
for Lord John Russell's Resolutions respecting
Bribery at Elections ............................... 111
of the Members of the House of Commons who voted
against Lord John Russell's Resolutions re-
specting Bribery at Elections ................ 1412




















PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.








THE



Parliamentary Debates


During the Seventh Session of the Seventh Parliament of
the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland,
appointed to meet at Westminster, the Second Day of
February 1826, in the Seventh Year of the Reign of His
Majesty King GEORGE the Fourth.


HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, lMarch 20, 1826.
JURIES IN INDIA BILL.] Mr.
Wynn moved the second reading of the
Juries in India Bill.
MVr. Hume expressed his satisfaction at
the introduction of the bill. He hoped,
however, that the discretionary power of
the judges, in directing who were to be
summoned on juries, would extend to the
nomination upon juries of persons of half-
caste, and of natives. In Ceylon, this
practice had been introduced by sir
Alexander Johnston, three years ago, and
had been followed up since by the judges
with the happiest effect. The natives who
were summoned upon those juries were
found to be as good as any other jurors.
Besides, it served to raise them in their
own opinion, by thus making them share
in the rights and privileges of other British
subjects. If a similar provision was intro-
duced into the present bill, it would give
the greatest satisfaction to the people of
India.
Mr. Vynn said, that the permission to
serve upon juries was granted by the bill
to all persons who were not disqualified by
some legal offence from serving upon them.
Ceylon did not fall within the superintend-
ence of his office. He had understood,
however, that the natives there had been
permitted to serve on juries, and that the
practice had been attended with the best
effects. In some instances, where the
natives in India had been called upon to
attend on coroners' inquests, they had
evinced great intelligence and sharpness;
and it had, he understood, had the effect
VOL. XV. {N w}
(Series.)


adverted to by the hon. member, of raising
them in their own estimation.
Mr. Hume hoped that the operation of
the bill would extend, not merely to the
three presidencies, which would make it a
benefit to three or four hundred thousand
persons; but to the whole of British India,
which would render it a blessing to sixty
or seventy millions.
The bill was read a second time.

EDUCATION IN IRELAND.] Mr. Goul-
burn moved the order of the day, for the
House going into a commiiie of supply
on the Irish Estimates. On the motion,
that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Mr. Spring Rice rose, in consequence
of the notice he had given, for the purpose
of moving a resolution, affirming the ge-
neral principles upon which alone he con-
ceived any national system of Education
in Ireland was practicable, or could be
effectual. He could assure the House,
that lie did not take this step with any
hostile feeling towaids the Irish govern-
ment, as he was ready to admit, that many
very useful and practical measures had
been introduced during the present session,
which deserved all possible praise. Still
less was it his object to add to the jealousies
and distrust which, on this question, ne-
cessarily existed in Ireland. Most anxious
to obtain the acquiescence of the House
in his resolution, he would endeavour to
exclude from his argument all that was
not indispensably necessary for his pur-
pose, and all topics of an irritating nature.
Hence he would not at present dwell upon
the odious Charter-school principle, nor
the atrocious cruelties which it had created
13






3] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Education in Ireland. [4
and tolerated. This, in fact, he considered hope and produced agitation, which the
to be disposed of by the vote of the House votes of the night were ill calculated to
in the nlst year. Neither would he dwell satisfy or to allay. It was those votes
upon the cruel and unjust laws against which actually forced on the discussion,
education passed in the reigns of William and which made it his duty to submit
and Anne. He would come to more the present motion; and he called upon
modern times, because in those times he the chairman of that commission (Mr.
obtained sufficient evidence to justify his Frankland Lewis) either to defend those
motion. He therefore would, in the first votes, if justifiable, by his report, or to
place, refer to the proceedings of 1806. oppose them if they were not so to be
In that year an inquiry into the state of justified. The first vote which they were
educa ion in Ireland was conducted under called upon to make was one to the As-
the authority of a royal commission, and sociation for Discountenancing Vice.
fourteen reports were presented to the This was a charitable society reported
House, all of which were entitled to re- upon by the commissioners; it had already
spect;but the last of which, the fourteenth, received grants of public money to the
he considered the most important and extent of 77,97.5/. and it was proposed
valuable document ever prepared upon this year to add nearly 2,0001. to the for-
this subject, though as yet it had unfor- mer vote. He asked the lion. member
tunately led to no practical results what- whether this was in accordance with the
ever. It was true, that an act was passed report or in opposition to it ? But, in-
in 181S, establishing a board ofeducation; dependently of the report, he objected to
bet, with what effect that body acted the grant. The schools which he felt it
could best be estimated by a reference to to be the duty of parliament to encourage
theirannualreportsandtothelatestatement were schools for all; whilst the schools of
respecting the Middleton school. So the this society were of a character exclusive
matter rested till 18s2!, when his right and objectionable. They contained 9578
hon. i'riend (sir J. Newport) submitted a Protestants, and only 6844, Catholics; the
motion for the appointment of a com- masters must necessarily be of the es-
mittee on the subject. He regretted very tablished church; the whole control was
much the way ii which that motion had ves;ed in the minister of the parish; they
been met, and the substitution of the pre- were, in fohe, a substitution for the schools,
sent commission. He originally thought, which the incumbents ought, under a
and was now from experience convinced, better system, themselves to provide;
that the committee would have been the and the central institution was managed in
safest, the most authoritative, and the some particulars so carelessly, that the
most efficient instrument, that could have bounty of government was absorbed in
been employed. That committee would useless nnd extravagant profits. Would
probably have looked less to the past than the House believe that, out of the annual
to the future, and would have bounded vote of 7,000/. 1,9001. had been expended
its inquiries to the practical question of in the profits of a favoured bookseller ?
what system would deserve the support i Was it for this that the public money
of parliament. The government had, should be given? Another most im-
however, prieferredtheappointinentofcomr- proper use of the public money made by
inissioners, and his right lion. friend had this society was the expenditure of 2,5001.
abandoned his original views for the sake in catechetical premiums. Was the
of insuiing unanimity. The report of House to be told that the interests of the
their commissioners was now before the Irish church required so absurd and ri-
public and the House, and yet the diculous an assistance from the public ?
estimates,whichwere proposed to be voted If requisite to make these grants, had not
that night, in place of adopting any one the church sufficient wealth or zeal to
principle laid down in that report, was in supply them ? The report stated, that
direct opposition to the recommendations these schools were too few in number,
of thecommissioners. The estimatesthrew and tooProtestant in character, to become
the report and the commissioners over- generally available for the education of
board; and,if adopted in theirpresentform, the loman Catholic children;" and their
rendered the whole inquiry a farce and a observations concluded lnih the following
delusion. Practically, indeed, the inquiry important words: The respectable
was worse than a farce, if it did not lead schools under the care of the Association
to practical results, as it only created can hardly be expected to inspire the







Roman Catholics or Presbyterians with portion to the population, five to one;
confidence, being under the immediate but no such thing was the fact : out of
superintendence of the clergy of the es- 52,000 scholars but 26,000 were Catholics,
tablished church, the doctrines of which The society stated, that "its system is
have been always consistently and avow- that which is best suited to the Irish peo-
edly taught to all who would consent to pie" The report diametrically contra-
hear them. The education of children of dicted this opinion, by suggesting another
other persuasions is so entirely accidental systern-a more liberal on!e.-With these
and secondary that Di-senters and Catho- facts before the House, how was it possi-
lics view this class of schools with some be for the government to be so ill-advised
degree of distrust."-On all these grounds as to propose those grants, and would it
he resisted the vote as improper, and as ble possible for parliament to acquiesce in
being inconsistent with general principles them, as proposed ?-But, before he quit-
-as contrary to the principles of the re- ted this subject, it was necessary for him
port he also resisted it. The next, and a to explain the points in which he felt the
still more important question arose re- Kildare-street Society to be defective; and,
specting the grant to the society for the before he entered into the argument, he
Education ofthe Poor, commonly called the would advert to a few general principles.
Kiidare-street Society. It must be admit- He denied that these education votes were
ted that the formation of this society was votes of charity or benevolence. He
the firstapproach madeton'ards sound prin- held that it was the civil duty of the
ciples, and a system of education generally state to provide the means of instruc-
available. But it was objectionable, tion for all classes of its subjects, not
nevertheless, on many grounds. So far so much for their sakes as for its own.
from being approved of by the report, its If this was admitted, it was injudici-
ultimate extinction was contemplated; ous indeed to clog the performance of
and it was proposed that the existing this duty with any condition that might
schools of this society should be eventu- impede or counteract its application. But,
ally absorbed in others o' a more com- if these conditions were unjust, the act
prehensive and liberal character. Yet, we became as wicked as it was ever impolitic.
were now called upon, not only to con- Now, he considered any condition, inter-
tinue former grants, but to extend a fearing with the conscientious religious
notoriously defective system. The so- principles of the people to be .f this
city had already received above 110,001. character. A compulsory Scripture-read-
of public money, and the former grant of ing, inconsistent with the discipline of the
22,0001. it was now proposed to augment Catholic church, was the condition im-
to 30,0001. Was this according to the posed by this education society. As
recommendation of the report ? Was it such it was unjust, and it counteracted its
not, on the contrary, in direct opposition own object. He begged here not to be
to it ? But other grounds of objection misunderstood : he professed himself, as a
arose. The society suggested that it Protestant,assincere a friend to Scripture-
adopted the principle of the fourteenth reading as any of the patrons of these
report. It did no such thing. The four- schools, or as any of the reverend
teenth report only suggested the reading associators who headed their circulars
of such extracts of the Scriptures as with the misapplied inscription of In
should not give offence to either party. nominee Dei cui sit honos." But he had
The Kildare-street Societyforcedthe read- not on that account the least right to
ing of the testament as a sine qua non in force his principles upon others, and it
its schools. The society had claimed was in these respects he considered the
credit for 100,000 scholars. Upon the societies to have erred. It was indecent
official returns no more than 52,000 ap- and unworthy of the sacred question at
peared to have been in attendance. If issue to hold the public purse in one
such a correction between the statement hand, and the Bible in the other, and to
and the ascertained fact occurred to any refuse to give public aid to any who did
other department, would the House con- not sacrifice their notions of right and
tinue former grants: still less would it aug- wrong. It created a prejudice against
ment them ? The society stated, that its the Holy Scriptures themselves, and
schools were equally available to Protes- introduced jealousy and hatred on a
tants and Catholics. In that case, the subject which ought only to lead to
scholars might be expected to be in pro- fbobearance, love, and charity. But a


Education iln Ireland.


AMARCH 20, 1H26.






7] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Education in Ireland. [8
great clamour had been excited against Dr. Murray proposed that tle Holy
the Catholic priests, for opposing these Scriptures should be read only when the
Bible schools, as they were called. He Roman Catholic children were taken apart
could prove that on high ecclesiastical for the purpose of receiving religious in-
authority in our own church they were struction, and he said there could be no
right in doing so. He referred to the possible objection then to reading the
evidence of the archbishop of Dublin, not gospels of the week ; no objection to a
to be undervalued by the lion. gentlemen harmony of the gospel being used in the
opposite. The following g were extracts general education the children should re-
riom that prelate's examination in the ceive in common."
committee of 18955 :- Dr. Doyle.-Our objection applies to
S1 understand that the Catholics have the authorised version. That we have no
withdrawn children sometimes from the aversion to the reading of the Bible by
schools.-Has not the objection generally the laity, is best proved by the many
been, that by the introduction of the editions of the Look, under our express
Scriptures into those schools, the Catho- sanction, and to which is prefixed the
licity of the children might have been Rescript of Pius VI. to Martini, in order
endangered ? Certainly.-Does not your to show that we, and the Head of our
grace conceive that the individuals of any Church with us, exhort the faithful to
church are not only authorized, but bound read the Word of God. In addition to
to object to any system which strikes at thrae editions by Coyne, one by Cross,
the root of their religion ? Certainly.-- and two by O'Rcilly, we have procured a
Does not your grace think the exclusion Istereotype edition, of low price, to circu-
of private judgment is to the full as much late a'.mng all. There is nothing said
an article of the Roman Catholic faith as of us, more opposed to truth, than that
iransubstantiation ? I do.-Does your we are averse to the circulation of the
grace consider it possible that the Scrip- Word of God."
tures, without note and comment, can be What were the opinions of the commis-
received by individuals in schools, without sioners ? They state that None of the
admitting the right of private judgment ? existing establishments, whilst they con-
I think it certainly implies that.-Do you tinue to act upon their present rules, can
not conceive that the distribution of the provide such a system of education as
Scriptures has a tendency in Ireland to shall be cordially adopted and generally
increase the number of Protestants? Cer- suppo ted."
tainly.-Do you conceive that it has had In another part they add, The object
that operation ? I rather think it must of general education has not hitherto been
have had that operation.-Conceding the accomplished by any one of tihe institu-
sincerity of the Roman Catholic Ecclesi- tionswhichhavebeensupported at the pub-
astics in their belief in the doctrines of lie expense in Ireland. We are of opinion,
their church, does not your grace con- that any society consisting of a large and
ceive they are bound in duty to oppose fluctuating body of subscribers, who are
any system that tends to undermine their bound by no other rules than those they
church? Undoubtedly." impose upon themselves, cannot perma-
The Catholics, therefore, had done no nently be the most proper instrument for
more than what one of the most orthodox controlling and directing a system of
of our church had stated to be their duty. general education, maintained principally
But let not gentlemen on this account by the public money, in a country which,
argue that the Roman Catholic clergy unfortunately, abounds in distrust and
were adverse to the reading of the Scrip- jealousy, on account of religious opinions."
tures by adults. He believed that great If lie was right in his foregoing state-
efforts at conciliation were made even ments and principles, we were now, under
respecting schools; and he believed also colour of supporting education generally,
that more had been done for the circula- supporting that education only to which
tion and reading of the Scriptures amongst the Catholics entertain a religious objec-
adults by the Catholic Church, out of its tion, and which the commissioners' report
poverty, than by the Establishment, out admits to be a well-founded objection; for
of its wealth. To prove these two propo- they observe that From our examina-
sitions, he would refer to the following tions and general communications with all
statement in the Report on th table, and orders of the Roman Catholic clergy, we
to the evidence of Dr. Doyle:- collect that the use of the Testament,






9] Education in Ireland. MARCH 20, 1826. [10
without note or comment as a school- in proportion as the law divides and sepa-
book, or the reading of it by children, rates, we should join, and unite, and prove
save under the direction of their pastors, at least that we are not accessary to the
or persons approved of by them, is con- evil policy of the legislature. Perhaps
sidered contrary to the discipline of the much of the prejudice that now exists
Roman Catholic church." may be traced to the want of that early
In making these observations, he would association which this plan contemplates,
by no means suggest a separate system of and which, at a time when the mind is
education for Catholic and Protestant: most alive to every impression, would tend
on the contrary, he deprecated it. An to soften down asperities, and do away
united system, in which both might con- with the bad feeling which now exists."
scientiously join, was not only the best Would the House believe it, that the
and safest, but the only good and secure witness who recommended separation as
course that could be pursued. In this the means of producing charity, was a
he was opposed by the zealots on both Protestant prelate; and that the advocate
sides, but truth would ultimately prevail, of the more generous and liberal principle,
and the zealots be forgotten. If sepa- was a young and eloquent orator, Mr.
rated, our establishments might, perhaps, Bellew, who, at the Catholic Association,
be more essentially Catholic and more pronounced the words I have read, and
essentially Protestant, but he was con- which do him such immortal honour It
vinced they would be less christian, and had clearly been shown, that to impute
that the common ties and sympathies, to the Catholics an opposition to the
without which life was valueless, would light of the Scripture, was inconsistent
be broken in this unnatural estrange- with the fact. A still more vile and atro-
ment. As his opinion on this subject cious calumny had been propagated
was opposed to high authority, he would against them, that they were enemies to
give his opponents the benefit of a wit- education. The returns on the table
ness in their favour, who stated-" If the contradicted this detestable falsehood;
two religions could manage so as to afford for such was the anxiety of Catholics for
religious instruction separately, it would education, that out of 408,065 children
answer all purposes best; and, amongst of their persuasion educated in Ireland,
other advamit;zges, it would tend very 377,007 were educated at their own ex-
much to clha.ity. To comprehend the pense, without public aid; whilst, out of
children in one scheme of general in- 93,429 children of the established church,
struction, is a contrivance above my 26,025 were educated by grants from this
comprehension. In my own line, I see House. Of 69,186 children in the schools
my way ; out of that line, I am unwilling supported by the public, 31,058 only were
to venture on any experiments." Catholics-less than one half: results for
Now, in reply, he would beg the House which the House and the public were
to listen to the argument stated on the entirely unprepared. The hon. member
other side, much more ably than it would concluded by moving, by way of amend-
be by any words of his, but in every sen- meant, "That this House concurs in the
timent of which he concurred:-" I am opinion expressed unanimously by the
averse to any plan that would give rise Commissioners of education, appointed
to a separate system of education, because in 1826, in their fourteenth Report, signed
i am convinced that nothing would tend by the late archbishops of Armagh and
so powerfully (with the exception of our Cashel, the bishop of Killala, the provost
own great and important question) to of Trinity College, now bishop of Ferns,
effect a union of all classes, as the early and others, that no general plan of edu-
association of children of different reli- cation in Ireland, however wisely and
gions. It has been said by some per- unexceptionably contrived in other re-
sons; where is the use of uniting in child- aspects, can be carried into effectual execu-
hood with those whom the law separates tion, unless it be explicitly avowed, and
in after life ? But I ask, are we to form clearly understood as its leading princi-
institutions for this country in contempla- ple, that no attempt shall be made to
tion of those laws being perpetual? are influence or disturb the peculiar religious
we, as far as in us lies, to support the tenets of any sect or description of Christ-
spirit of those laws, by widening still ians.'
farther the breach ? I should think that Mr. Goulburn said, that in the obser-
the argument lies the other way, and that nations which he felt himself called upon






11] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
to make in answer to the hon. member,
he should take care that nothing which
fell from him should have a tendency to
excite any angry feelings, or disturb the
peace of the sister country. He should
not, therefore, follow the hon. member
through the various topics upon which lie
had touched in the course of his speech,
but would confine himself to that which
was, in his view, the main question at
issue; namely, had the government done
its duty with respect to the proposed
mode of establishing schools in Ireland?
In order to establish the fact, that govern-
ment had so done its duty upon this sub-
ject, the right hon. gentleman went back
to the report of 1806, and from that,
through the subsequent ones, in order to
show that the system of education was
carried on upon the most liberal princi-
ples, and without any attempt to inter-
fere with the religious opinions of any
sect or class of Christians. The four-
teenth report, in particular, recommended
that the system of education should be
extended to children of all classes of the
community indiscriminately; but it re-
commended that there should be religious
as well as literary instruction given to all.
The commissioners, by the course they
pursued, had prevented the Kildare-
street Society fiom incurring the charge
of being actuated by a spirit of prose-
lytism. Taking the recommendations of
that report into view, it had appeared to
the lord lieutenant to be his duty to give
every facility to this object, but, at the
same time, not to abandon at once the
schools already established; and this
course had the express sanction and ap-
probation of the commissioners, who were
of opinion, that the grants ought not to
be withheld from the existing schools
until others had been formed to supersede
them. With regard to the appointment
of commissioners of education, all must
be aware of the difficulty of obtaining
individuals who were competent to a duty
so peculiar; and the lord lieutenant had
applied to him (Mr. Goulburn) to make
a selection of persons who were capable
of superintending education. If, there-
fore, he had not named the persons who
were actually appointed, and who had
shown themselves so fit to discharge their
duties, it might indeed have been a matter
of complaint that he had chosen those
who were incompetent. The commis-
sioners determined to carry the plan re-
commended in their report into effect, in


Education in Ireland. [12
order to try the experiment whether that
plan was or was not best adapted to the
education of the people of Ireland. In
accomplishing this design, they had been
most sedulously occupied, and they, in
the first instance, had endeavoured to lay
the foundation of the system. If objec-
tions were made to the delay that had
occurred, he could only reply, that it
would have been much greater if the task
had been intrusted to less able hands.
The question was, how ought education
to be conducted in Ireland ? The Irish
government said, Give assistance to the
schools that exist until better ale
established;" while the hon. gentleman
said, or at least his motion was tanta-
mount to it, Destroy the schools that
exist, and then try the experiment upon
a new system." No man could doubt
that the course pursued by the Irish go-
vernment was best calculated to accom-
plish the object. The right lion. gentle-
man then noticed cursorily the proceed-
ings on the vote of 22,0001. of last year,
which had been found insufficient, the
further sum required having been ad-
vanced to the Kildare-street Society.
The resolution for the present year
amounted to no more than the actual
expenditure of the last, and it was inde-
pendent of the sum to be required for
the new schools. For these, 5,0001. were
to be voted to the lord lieutenant, to be
applied, if he considered the experiment
worthy of encouragement and support.
Whatever might be the feelings of indi-
viduals respecting the Kildare-street Asso-
ciation, and the principles by which it
was governed, he could not bring himself
to believe that the House would be dis-
posed to adopt an amendment, stigmatiz-
ing the conduct of those who were in-
trusted with the management of that
institution, and authorizing an opinion,
that, having departed from their original
design, measures ought to be taken for
the suppression of a system that had con-
ferred important benefits upon Ireland,
and had been effective, at least to a cer-
tain degree. Avoiding all acrimony of
reply, and relying only upon facts within
the knowledge of all, he only asked the
House to compare the state of educa-
tion in Ireland, at the present moment,
with what it had been formerly. The
services which the society had rendered
were not to he estimated merely by
the numbers it had caused to be in-
structed, but by the evils it had caused








to be avoided. If only 62,000 children Catholic children. He cared not what
had been educated, the example thus set their understandings might be. He had
was of the utmost value. He felt fully seen enough to convince him that it was
warranted in saying, that however short necessary to attend to the cultivation of
the Kildare-street Society might fall of their minds in this respect, before they
perfection, it was entitled to the thanks could dispel those differences, and that
of the country for the good it had want of cordiality which they imbibed at
achieved. In proposing the grant this school, and which adhered to them
year he was devoid of all personal feeling throughout life. If that object could
on the subject, and did it from a convic- ever be obtained, it must be by promot-
tion that the society was gaining ground, ing union among the Irish Protestants
notwithstanding all the hostility with and Catholics on points in which they
which it had been opposed. He trusted agreed, and giving them separate instruc-
the House would second the object by tion in points in which they differed.
acquiescing in the motion; and he was The circumstances under which the
satisfied that it would do so, unless it was Catholic children were brought into a
prepared to say that the existing system school, was, that the Scriptures should
of education ought to be destroyed at be read without note or comment.
once, for the sake of risking an experi- They came there conscious of having
ment. deceived their priests, who had forbidden
Mr. Frankland Lewis defended the con- them to go; and induced to attend by
duct of the commissioners, as well as of the apprehension of injury from another
the Kildare-street Society. Mistakes had quarter, or the hopes of reward. He did
been made as to the number of children not say that this was general, but he had
under the superintendance of the Kildare- seen it prevail in many instances, and
street Society; because one party had doubted whether the mischief produced
taken the number actually attending the by such a mode of education was not
schools, while others had referred to the greater than if they had been left unedu-
number upon the roll of the establish- cated. He admitted that there ought to
ment. The Kildare-street Society had I be no school established without religious
made its report founded upon the latter; instruction. That was a principle which
and lie Ias convinced that no intentional ought never to be lost sight of. But when
misrepreseentation was intended. What- they saw Protestant versions of the New
ever might be the result of this question, Testanent in the hands of Roman Catho-
he hoped the vote would not be vwithhbld lie children, who were told by their priests
from any disparagement of the individual and their parents that it was dangerous to
members of the institution. They were look at them, as they were subversive of
men of tile highest probity, and of the their church, could they call that reli-
utmost zeal in carrying the beneficial ob- gious instruction ? This was not religious
jects they had in view into execution, instruction: it had no other effect than
The only proper principle, in his concep- that of producing in their minds an impres-
tion, upon which they all could vote for sion that the New Testament contained
this grant was this: Do not destroy that something insidious towards the Roman
which is in actual operation, before you Catholic religion, and as such they shrunk
have provided another to supply its place." from it. While he was ready to acknow-
Ile did not thereupon say that they ought ledge the laudable exertions of the Kil-
to confine their view to the present sys- dare-street Society, he was perfectly per-
tem. The only principle upon which he, suaded, that if they abided by the three
and those who agreed with him, supported rules laid down for their guidance, they
the system, was merely to keep it in ope- could not render their labours so bene-
ration, but not to extend it; and that was ficial as llil ,il.i. otherwise prove. One
the only one upon which it was necessary of therulestowhichhehadalluded,enjoined
to vote at present. The vast importance that every schoolmaster should be of the
of spreading education generally over Ire- established church, and that the cate-
land was unquestionable; and nothing chism should be taught in the school
could be of more importance than that over which he presided. Now, whether
the education should be such as to eradi- these rules were carried strictly into exe-
cate the seeds of jealousy and dislike to cution he could not say, but they were
each other, which too generally prevailed clearly incompatible with the principles
in the minds of the Irish Protestant and of the lRoman Catholic religion. The


Education in Ireland.


NJAAcii 20, IS26. [14f






15] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
children were directed to read the Holy
Scriptures without note or comment;
which was also contrary to the principles
of that persuasion. So long as this was
insisted upon, the system of education
would be never cordially acceded to by the
Roman Catholics. Dr. Murray, a Roman
Catholic bishop, had assured the commis-
sioners, that he would have no objection
to the Testament being placed in the
hands of such as were capable of under-
standing it. Was it not then probable
that its perusal would operate more bene-
ficially, under this limitation, than when
introduced into the hands of children, as
it were, by stealth ? The system, which
he and they who agreed with him recom-
mended as the only one which could be
generally efficient, was, to instruct Catho-
lics and Protestants together in those mat-
ters in which they all agreed, and separately
in the religion which each professed.
This was the only plan that offered any
chance of producing a beneficial effect,
and he should hail it as a great good if he
once saw it adopted. In addition to this,
the schools ought to be conducted upon
the principle of rigidly excluding all books
which tended to bring hatred or contempt
on the Roman Catholic faith, or the te-
nets of any sect of Christians. Books of
that description could not fail to engender
and foster that early hatred and dissention,
which it was so desirable to eradicate.
He might be allowed to say, that the
withdrawing of such books from their
schools would be a benefit of the highest
description. There were multitudes who
wished to keep alive that soreness which
was too apt to arise between Protestant
and Catholic, and who were desirous that
the Catholics should herd together in order
to keep it alive. Deprive these persons
of such pretexts, as far as it could be
done, by the careful exclusion of that
class of books, and great good would be
the result. Formerly, in the Irish schools,
there was no rule or regulation as to books.
Every one brought what books he pleased;
and it was not surprising that many of
them should have been of an improper
description. The Kildare-street Society
had done great good by withdrawing these
books, and substituting proper books of
instruction in their place. In this respect,
the exertions of that society had been
most meritorious. But their system was
not calculated to answer the great ends
of general education in Ireland. There
were two important classes of schools in


Education in Ireland. [16
Ireland, Protestant and Catholic; with
good accommodations and few attendants
in the one, crowds and misery in the
other. But the result of all that he had
seen and heard was a conviction in
his mind, that if education was to be
generally given at all, it must be given
in the manner in which those to whom it
was offered were willing to receive it.
They must look at something beyond the
present system; but they must not de-
stroy that system until they found some-
thing better to put in its place. He
looked to the establishment of an exten-
sive and united system of education in
Ireland, in which religious instruction
should be carefully and impartially dis-
pensed. Such a system would be of in-
estimable benefit; but the House never
could succeed in effecting that object, if
it acceded to the prayer of the petition of
the Roman Catholics that they might have
grants of money placed at their disposal
for promoting the purposes of education
in Ireland. Many inconveniences would
arise by placing sums at the disposal of
these irresponsible bodies. He thought
that, under no circumstances, should they
place a sum of money at the disposal of
Roman Catholics for the education cf
Roman Catholics. le said it not out of
any disrespect to the Roman Catholics.
With respect to giving what was called a
united education, lie did not pretend to
offer any opinion; but if the House set
its heart on such an object, they would
not be long in effecting it. There were
persons, he knew, who were very opposed
to such a scheme of education. Nay,
one of the Catholic orators had expressly
declared his hostility to any such plan,
observing that it appeared to be the ob-
ject of the English parliament to bring
Protestants and Catholics together in in-
fancy by education, and in old age by the
Burial bill; but that during manhood they
should be separated from each other. The
orator concluded by expressing his deter-
mination to separate them in infancy, if they
were not to be equalized in the period of
manhood. However, he set at nought all
such declamation. If a resolution to the
same effect had even been promulgated
by the Catholic hierarchy, he would set it
at nought; for he was persuaded that the
good sense of the Catholic body would
overrule all such objections, and that they
would readily receive the means of educa-
tion, provided there was no substantial
objection against it.






17] Education in Ireland.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald said, that there
appeared to be no difference in principle
as to the mode of bestowing education on
the people of Ireland; for the desire of
the government was, that instruction
should be applied without interference
with the religious principles of the scho-
lars: at least, such was the doctrine that
night inculcated by an lion. member, who
might be considered the organ of the
Irish government on that subject. The
hon. gentleman objected to committing
the education of the Catholic population
to a body exclusively Catholic; yet the
votes then on the table proposed nothing
more nor less than to give it to a body ex-
clusively Protestant. It appeared from the
report of the commissioners, that of the
Catholic children now receiving instruction
in Ireland, 5,000 only were educated at
schools supportedby parliamentary grants;
and that 37,000 were educated gratuitously,
without any assistance, direct, or indirect,
fiom these funds; so that education was
at present going against the principle
maintained by the hon. gentleman,namely,
that it should not be committed to the
management of a body exclusively Ca-
tholic. The only difference then was,
that at present the superintendence of the
education was in the hands of those over
whom no control could be exercised; and
that he (Mr. Fitzgerald), and those who
thought with him, were anxious that it
should be placed under the direction of a
responsible board. He was free to admit
the fact stated by the hon. gentleman
opposite, that books of an improper nature
had crept into some of the Irish schools ;
but this applied only to those pauper semi-
naries which were ready to catch at what-
ever books came within their reach. It was
therefore not to be wondered at, that
certain publications were found scattered
through them, forming a strong contrast
to those furnished by the Education
Society. He begged, notwithstanding
what fell from the hon. gentleman opposite,
to assure the House, that he knew many
schools supplied with the most approved
books, in which several hundred children
were educated under the direction of their
priests. It might, perhaps, be right to
substitute another mode of education for
that which he had just described; but
unless it was such as would conciliate the
Catholic population, and secure the co-
operation of their priests, it must inevi-
tably fail, and thus defeat the object of
those who desired to have the two sects
VOL. XV.


MARCH 20, 1826. [18
together at that early period, when their
feelings might become so blended, that,
in the future stages of their existence,
they could live in peace and harmony.
Indeed, it must be confessed by every
candid person, that for the purpose of
scholastic education, the Bible was not
necessary. It was not used as a school-
book in those seminaries where the mem-
bers of that House were educated, and
yet all must admit strong feelings of
religion prevailed amongst them. The
Scriptures, as a book of instruction, were
not placed in the hands of the scholars
at Harrow, Eton, or Westminster; nor
was the Bible used for such a purpose, if
he were rightly informed, during the
undergraduate course at Cambridge or
Oxford. He was anxious that the schools
in Ireland should be no longer what they
were represented to be; namely, an arena
on which the Protestant and Catholic
clergymen were contending for the scho-
lars. The most effectual mode of putting
an end to such a practice would be to
permit the children to attend their re-
spective places of abode for religious in-
struction. He had the most perfect per-
suasion, that, unless the obstacles now
opposed to the unrestricted education of
the Catholics were removed, all attempts
to instruct them through the medium
of Education Societies must fail. In-
deed, the House appeared to be very
much mistaken as to the degree in which
education was wanted in Ireland. So far
from being in the state of ignorance
attributed to them, he was convinced that
the peasantry of any district in Ireland
would be found better educated than the
inhabitants of any corresponding portion
of the empire; perhaps he should except
Scotland, where the people were all well
instructed; but his assertion was un-
questionably true, as far as regarded
England. At all events, he could answer
for his own constituents, and was ready
to set them against the peasantry of any
part of England of the same dimensions
as the county which he had the honour to
represent. The very poorest class of
persons in that county were not alone
capable of reading and writing, but were
well versed in the higher attainments, in
Arithmetic, Algebra, Greek and Latin.
He did not mean to challenge the mem-
bers of that hon. House; although he felt
that, with the exception of the learned
professions, and, perhaps, some coteries
of blue-stocking ladies, the poor peasantry
C






19] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
of the county Kerry were more learned
than the majority of those who composed
even the higher circles about London.-
It was not an unusual thing to see a poor
barelegged boy running about with a
Homer, a Cicero, or a Horace, under
his arm. Indeed, it was the opinion of
an individual, well acquainted with Ire-
land, the father of a noble marquis
(Lansdown), that the Irish peasantry did
not want a literary education ; that they
had already enough of that, if not too
much ; and that they only stood in need
of good practical lessons of industry.
Such a system of instruction could never,
however, be established, as long as edu-
cation was administered through various
little knots of individuals, who were
anxious to pervert every grant of public
money to what they considered the useful
purpose of proselytism-a mode of pro-
ceeding, in his opinion, calculated neither
to promote instruction, nor extend the
benefits of the Reformation. He would
rather advise them to establish a general
mode of education, to exclude religious
instruction from the schools, and to
let the people read the Bible of their
own accord; for he was satisfied that
if, instead of attempting to enforce
the reading of the Scriptures, the lower
classes were permitted to follow their
own inclination, they would provide them-
selves with Bibles. The very fact of
their being commanded not to look
into them would then cease to have any
effect. He was the more inclined to
think so from a knowledge that the
people of Ireland were essentially
religious. They were not disposed
to treat with levity or inattention any
thing connected with religion. They had
always strong feelings of piety; and he
was convinced that those who were
anxious for the instruction, and perhaps
the conversion of the Irish peasantry,
were, by a perseverance in the present
system, marring the object they had in
view.
Mr. Secretary Peel said, he saw so
little substantial difference in the sen-
timents of members who had taken part
in the present debate, that he was sorry,
that on what appeared to him to be a
mere matter of form, so much opposition
should be excited. All parties were
agreed, that no interference ought to take
place with the religious principles of the
scholars. Two things, then, remained to
be considered; namely, under what su-


Education in Ireland. [20
perintendence the education was to be
carried on, and what should be done with
the institutions now existing? For his
own part, he thought the best mode of
diffusing education was not through any
local constituted institution ; and he most
perfectly agreed in the principle of Dr.
Murray's proposition, that the Protestant
and Roman Catholic children should be
educated together ; that they should learn
in common, but receive their religious
instruction apart, each from his own
pastor. It appeared that Dr. Murray did
not dissent from the introduction of some
general religious education, founded on
the selection of some approved parts of
the Scripture; on some harmonious ar-
rangement of the gospel, by which the
grand truths of religion might be com-
municated, and morality inculcated, with-
out trenching on those doctrines upon
which the two sects differed. If this
plan could be carried into effect, a sound
system of education might be established
in Ireland; and he trusted that no
difficulties would be thrown in the way
of accomplishing this most desirable work.
He understood that the commission over
which his hon. friend (Mr. F. Lewis)
presided, were engaged in considering
the best mode of giving effect to such a
system. No body of persons could pos-
sess more ability or information to qualify
them for the important task they had to
perform. The question then before the
House was, whether, in anticipation of
the success to which they looked forward,
they ought at once to put an end to the
existing institutions, which were all they
now had to depend upon, and which,
though they might not do all the good pos-
sible, certainly had done more than could
have been expected. Perhaps, in saying
that the refusal of this vote would put an
end to these institutions, he was, in
strictness, going too far; but undoubtedly
the effect would be to stigmatise them, so
as to take from them the power of doing
good for the future. It was during the
time that he held office as Secretary for
Ireland, that the Kildare-street association
was instituted to superintend the general
education of the poor of that country.
As the conversion of the Roman Catholics
was quite out of the question, it was con-
sidered desirable to improve them by
education; and it was hoped that a course
of public instruction might be framed, by
which all apprehension ofproselytism would
be carefully avoided. He was prepared







21] Education in Ireland.
to have acted on the recommendation of
the fourteenth Report of the commissioners
of Irish Education, and to have placed it
under the direction of seven or eight
officers, appointed by government. But,
after repeated deliberations with those
who were politically opposed to him, he
found their dread of the increase of the
patronage of the Crown so great, that he
was obliged to abandon his intention. In
the course of the inquiry, however, he
discovered that a society was in exist-
ence, consisting of Protestants, Roman
Catholics, and Presbyterians, and asso-
ciated for the purpose of conducting
the education of the poor on the very
principle that was desired. He had,
therefore, selected this society to carry
into effect the recommendations of
the fourteenth report, and he was
happy to state that immense benefit had
been conferred on the people of Ireland
by that society, in the diffusion of books
of useful knowledge. That society also
gave instruction, on right principles,
to 50,000 children, half Catholics, and
half Protestants. Doing good to at
least this extent, would it be wise to
paralyse its exertions ? A great number
of books of religious instruction, of the
most unexceptionable nature had also
been circulated by this society. In 1818,
the number of tracts issued was 50,000 ;
in 1820, 123,000; in 1821, 153,000; in
1822, 185,000; in 1823, 106,000; in
1824, 121,000; and last year, 172,816
tracts were published, and distributed at
the expense of the society. All these
publications had been approved by Dr.
Doyle, and other Roman Catholic prelates.
All he implored the House was,1 not to
imply a stigma, which must be done, by
passing the resolution proposed by the
hon. member opposite. An hon. mem-
ber seemed to have expressed an opinion,
that education should be conducted
wholly apart from religion. For one, he
must say, he never could consent to pa-
tronize any system of education of which
the principles of the Christian religion did
not form a part. He did not wish to see
a race of young philosophers spring up,
who derived their principles from any
other source ; nor, on the other hand, did
he wish to see children educated like the
inhabitants of that part of the country to
which the hon. member belonged, where
the young peasants of Kerry ran about in
rags, with a Cicero or a Virgil under their
arms. In his opinion, this was not the


MARCH 20, 1826. [22
education which would best fit them for
the usual purposes of life. He hoped the
hon. gentleman would not press his mo-
tion; for if he did, he should be under
the necessity of voting against him.
Mr. nI. Fitzgerald said, he had never
expressed an opinion, that religion should
form no part of education. All he had
said was, that children should be educated
in religious opinions by the respective
teachers of the religions to which they
belonged, in places set apart for the
purpose.
Mr. Peel said, that Dr. Murray was
disposed to go much further; for he was
of opinion, that selections might be made
from the Bible, on which both creeds
might agree.
Sir J. Newport said, that the resolution
before the House simply went to affirm a
proposition contained in the fourteenth
Report of the commissioners; namely that
no system of education could succeed
which interfered with the religious feel-
ings of the people. Now he could not
conceive how the affirming of that resolu-
tion could cast a slur on the society of
Kildare-street. A complaint had been
made that improper books were used in
the schools. This only showed the
general wish of the people to acquire
education. An hon. friend of his, on visit-
ing a school in Ireland, among other
singular school-books, found Roderick
Random in the hands of a boy. He im-
mediately went to the clergyman, and
asked why such a book was permitted.
The answer was, that the clergy were
poor, the parents were poor, and the boys
brought whatever books they could find.
If religion was to be taught in the schools,

he could see no objection to set apart one
day in the week for that purpose, and
have the children instructed in separate
classes. He sincerely hoped, that the
right hon. gentleman would not oppose
his hon. friend's motion; for if it were
negatived, the consequences might be
most injurious.
Mr. Goulburn said, he could see no
good that would arise from affirming a
general proposition on which they were
all agreed; and much harm might be done
out of doors if the House should divide
on a question of this nature.
Mr. Butterworth expressed his surprise
at the opinions delivered by an hon.
member below him. If the Bible were a
bad book, it might be well to exclude it;
but if it was the work of inspiration, it






23] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
was impossible its circulation could be
injurious, and it was unreasonable to
proscribe it. One of the greatest bar-
riers to education was the interference
of the Catholic priests, who neglected to
educate the children themselves, and
withdrew them from schools devoted to
that purpose. This interference had the
worst possible effects. Indeed, he had
been credibly informed, that five hundred
children had been withdrawn from schools
in one district, chiefly on account of the
prejudice raised against the system by
the priests. Besides that, he held in his
hand a number of resolutions agreed to by
the Society of Irish Schoolmasters, which
confirmed him in the opinion, that much
mischief was done by this interference.
The hon. member, read these resolutions,
the purport of which was, that the trans-
lation which they had of the Gospel, in
the Irish language, was full of errors;
that owing to the restrictions imposed on
them in the mode of conducting the edu-
cation of the children, and the prejudice
which such restrictions and interference
raised among the parents, they could not
carry on that education in an effectual
manner. He knew that these were the
sentiments of a large portion of the peo-
ple of Ireland. He maintained that moral
instruction alone could be of use to the
lower orders in Ireland ; and that such in.
struction was to be obtained by the dis-
tribution of the Bible amongst the people,
without note or comment, according to
the mode adopted by the Kildare-street
Society. Virtually to exclude the Bible
from the system of education was what
he could never agree to.
Mr. Hutchinson said, it was in vain to
think of any union of the systems of educa-
tion in Ireland so long as there was an
effort to mingle with the general scheme
of education the principle of proselytism.
He begged to observe that the hon. mem-
ber for Dover was in a state of gross and
scandalous ignorance in what he had said
about the Bible in the Irish language,
Did that hon. member know how few
Irish gentlemen could read Irish ? There
was not one in every thousand of the Ca-
tholic peasantry able to read Irish. In
fact the language was almost lost, for
very few indeed could read it. But the
statement of the hon. member for Dover
was not only ignorant, but cruel, when he
represented that the catholic clergy neg-
lected the education of their flocks. If
the bun. member wished to know why


Irish Estimates. [24:
education was so much neglected in Ire-
land, he would refer him to the bloody
and dark pages of her history. If educa-
tion was deficient, he would ask the hon.
member who it was that had impoverished
and plundered Ireland, but the same class
of persons who now came forward to
educate the people under a vicious sys-
tem? If he would turn over the records
of that country, which he knew he was
capable of doing, he would see the cause
of that which he deplored. He would
find that formerly it was death for a Ca-
tholic parent to send his child abroad to
receive that education which was denied
him at home. If the hon. member meant
to assert, that the Catholic priests neg-
lected the education of their flocks, he
would tell him, that it was a gross and
scandalous libel. Neither was it true that
the Catholic priests denied their flocks
the use of the Bible; but they said, that
in the Bible there were many things unfit
to be put into the hands of youth, and
therefore they would not allow them to
peruse it without some explanation. They
therefore put the Bible into the hands
of their parishioners, accompanied by
notes of the ablest commentators. The
hon. member seemed to think that nothing
more was necessary than that the Bible
should be cast among the people, and that
they would work out their own salvation.
He held, apparently, every man to be a
blockhead who could not do so; and if
he found any thing struck a man with
horror in the Bible, the hon. member
considered him irredeemable. He could
tell the gentleman opposite that no pos-
sible good could be effected for Ireland
by connecting education with religion;
and if they thought, by any side wind,
that it was possible to undermine the Ca-
tholic religion, they would find themselves
very much mistaken. The best way was,
for the government not to interfere with
religion, but to allow the people to worship
God after their own method.
Mr. Spring Rice briefly replied, and
declined pressing his motion.

IRISH ESTIMATES.] The House hav-
ing resolved itself into a committee of
supply, Mr. Goulburn moved, That the
sum of 19,5001. be granted for the support
of the Protestant Charter schools of Ire-
land."
Mr. John Smith objected to this vote.
The system of corruption and mismanage-
ment which prevailed ought to be cor-






25] Irish Estimates.
reacted. Before he voted one farthing he
must have some security against the re-
currence of such cruel and barbarous out-
rages as had heretofore been practised in
those schools. If he received the assur-
ance from government, that all pos-
sible efforts would be made to prevent the
repetition of such barbarities, he would
not object to the vote.
Mr. Goulburn said, that the present
vote was reduced as compared with the
former vote, and the object of such re-
duction was, to provide for the gradual
abolition of these charter schools. Every
effort had been made, and would continue
to be made, to prevent the recurrence
of such transactions as had been de-
scribed, but the commissioners found it
difficult to get rid of all these abuses at
once. As to the cruelties of former
periods, the cases had been referred to
the law officers of the Crown, and by
them proceedings had been instituted,
which were now in progress at the se-
veral assizes. The conduct of the school-
masters had been brought under the con-
sideration of the commissioners of edu-
cation, who had diligently investigated
every case of cruelty, and he hoped, at
no distant period, to be able to announce
an effectual reformation. The vigilance
of the committee of fifteen, and of the
government would be exerted, to prevent
a recurrence of the abuses complained
of.
Sir John Newport said, that the com-
mittee of fifteen were far from having
used that diligence which the country
had a right to expect from them. On
looking at the estimate, he found a charge
for the catechists, who were to report
monthly to the committee, but who, as
it appeared in evidence, had not for the
space of nine months made a single re-
port. Who were these catechists for
whom this charge was made ? They
were the parochial clergy, and were
therefore bound to catechise the children
of their parishes without gratuity or re-
muneration. Were those who had al-
ready been found to neglect this impor-
tant duty again to receive salaries for
doing nothing? With regard to the
duties of the committee of fifteen, how
had those duties been performed ? During
the space of a whole month, their secre-
tary had contrived to evade, by a series
of subterfuges amounting to little short
of perjury, the various interrogatories put
to him, as to the progress of the coun-


MARCH 20, 1826. [26
mittee. At length it was elicited fromthim,
that he did not believe that forty reports
had been made by them; and he was
ultimately brought to admit, that not a
single report had been presented by them
to the General Board. But he (sir J.
Newport) was not satisfied with the rate
of the proposed reduction. He con-
tended, that it would be better, in the
first instance, that the apprentice fees in
these institutions should be augmented
to a given amount; by which the public
would be relieved from the perpetual
maintenance of the establishments on the
same scale of expense. The House had
it before them in evidence, that young
men who were of a fit age to be appren-
ticed, were retained in the institutions by
the masters, for the sake of the profit
which they derived from this contrivance.
Now, the House would take into con-
sideration, that the charter schools were
not solely dependent upon parliamentary
grants; but had, in addition, property of
their own amounting to 10,0001. a-year.
It was evident that a great proportion of
the funds intended to be appropriated to
the uses of the poor through these
channels was grossly misapplied; and
the mal-practices which were so justly
reprobated, were continued under the
very eye of the committee of fifteen.
Nay, their own officers were known to
carry on corrupt communications with
the schoolmasters, by means of contracts
for clothing and other necessaries. The
right hon. gentleman had said, that an
investigation into the conduct of the
officers was in progress. Why, three
days would be sufficient for such an exa-
mination; and yet the committee of
fifteen took seven months, and had done
nothing effectual as yet. It was more
than seven months since a resolution had
passed that House for the prosecution of
those who had been engaged in mal-
practices; while a week, at the utmost,
would have been abundantly sufficient
either to establish the fact against them,
or to prove their innocence. If, then,
the business was left in the hands of the
committee of fifteen, judging from their
services hitherto, it might be protracted
ad infinitum, and the officers, in the in-
terim, be continued in an employment
which they so much abused.
Mr. Goulburn said, it could not be
disputed, that great abuses had been
practised, but measures had been taken
to correct them. He would repeat his







27] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
pledge, that of the money now to be
granted there should be no misapplica-
tion. Gentlemen who were acquainted
with Ireland would be aware how many
local difficulties there were in the way of
arriving at the truth as to the conduct of
the catechists.
Mr. Hume said, he was anxious to call
the serious attention of the House to the
situation in which they were placed with
regard to the whole system of Irish ex-
penditure. The country was forced to
submit to the greatest extravagance in
these disbursements; and he knew of no
proceeding that placed the conduct of
the Irish government in a more censur-
able point of view, than the subject now
before the House. In the year 1821, he
had cautioned the House in vain against
the improvidence of this grant. The
greater part of the sums allotted to that
part of the empire for miscellaneous ser-
vices, which amounted in the whole to
371,5891., was placed under the manage-
ment of authorities, over whom the go-
vernment had no control, and who per-
petually indulged in the most profligate
waste of the public money. It was too
bad that England should be taxed to
keep up these enormous mismanaged
establishments. The House should not
be told, that the government had been
ignorant of the abuses practised. It was
their duty to make themselves acquainted
with the mode in which the grants of
public money were dispensed. There
was great reason to complain of the right
hon. secretary for Ireland, who, from the
moment he came into office, began to
augment these votes, and still persevered
in adding to them. The increase of the
estimates within the last few years, was
extravagant in the extreme. In 1822,
the aggregate of the votes for Ireland
was 322,0001.; last year it was increased
to 365,0001.; and its amount for the
present year was 371,5891.; although it
had been proved, to the satisfaction of
the House and the country, that not the
slightest benefits was derived from the ex-
penditure of any of the sums which had
been so liberally granted. He wondered
how the chancellor of the Exchequer,
who would find himself not a little pressed
upon the subject of ways and means by
and by, could sit quietly and see so large
a sum actually thrown away by the go-
vernment of Ireland. He had been at
the trouble of drawing out a paper con-
taining a statement of the funds appro-


Irish Estimates. [28
priated to the Irish charter schools since
the Union, and this calculation would,
he thought, a little surprise the House.
In the nine years preceding the year
1800, the aggregate of these grants was
13,0001. The articles of union provided,
that no decrease should take place in the
Irish grants for charitable objects for
twenty years to come; but this stipula-
tion was quite unnecessary, for instead
of being diminished, they had since that
period been nearly trebled. The hon.
gentleman then read a statement of the
grants for Irish charter schools, from 1801
down to the present year, and announced
the aggregate sum since the Union to
amount to 732,5681., voted for a purpose
which was acknowledged by all sides of
the House as useless, and he contended,
absolutely injurious. But that was not
all. These schools had incomes of their
own, which incomes, notwithstanding the
rise in the value of land and property,
were absolutely no greater, in conse-
quence of the mismanagement of the
trustees, than they had been in 1796.
They were then 7,0671., and he saw, by
the paper on the table, that they were
7,0671. still: but take them at that sum,
and there would be 183,0001. to be added
to the sum granted by parliament; so
that the whole sum expended was
916,0001. Could they, after that, be
content with the snail's pace at which
the government wished to proceed in
effecting a reduction in this branch of
unnecessary expenditure? He would
suggest that, instead of continuing this
wasteof money, they should at once put an
end to the whole system, and leave the
money in the hands of the lord lieutenant,
to be applied by him to apprenticing the
children, and adopting such regulations
as would relieve the country from any
further burthen.
Mr. Goulburn contended, that the
whole sum was, in effect, less than it had
been in former years. The hon. gentle-
man, in making his statements, seemed to
forget altogether that the institution had
been supported at one time by taxes
which were levied from the people in
Ireland and applied to this particular
purpose; and that when these taxes were
repealed, it became necessary for the
government by grant, to supply the
deficiency.
Mr. Monck reprobated the practice of
calling upon the people of England to
support those institutions in Ireland, which






MARCH 20, 1826. [30


should be maintained by a tax on their
own gentry. No people could be more
competent to pay such a contribution
than the Irish landholders, for they paid
neither poor-rates nor land-tax. He con-
sidered it shameful that they should
require from the inhabitants of England
and Scotland a sum of 371,0001. annually
for the education of the children of their
poor. The sum, if it must be raised at all,
should be procured by a tax of six-pence
or nine-pence in the pound on the income
of the Irish gentry.
Mr. Grattan defended the conduct of
the Irish landholders. Some of the schools
in Dublin were as ably conducted, and as
beneficial in their operation, as any estab-
lishment in England. He condemned the
doctrine of the hon. member for Reading,
who would allow the absentee landlords to
take all, and give nothing to Ireland in
return.
Sir John Newport, after repeating his
sense of the uselessness of the schools,
and the waste of the public money, moved,
in compliance with the suggestion of the
hon. member for Montrose, an amendment,
That the sum of 19,5001., for the sup-
port of the Protestant Charter Schools,
be granted to the lord lieutenant of
Ireland, in order that he may adopt such
regulations as may be deemed advisable
for the reduction of the number of
children educated in those schools."
Mr. John Smith said, that, from the
acts of cruelty which had been proved
against the masters of those schools, and
from the gross misapplication of money
brought home to the Secretary and others
under the Commission, he should give
his vote for the amendment, to fix a
stigma upon their conduct, and mark
the sense of parliament as to their pro-
ceedings.
Mr. Goulburn could not consent to
punish the commissioners for the impro-
priety or misconduct of a few of their ser-
vants. As the reduction would be effected
as soon as possible, any such power to the
lord lieutenant could be productive of no
possible good.
Sir John Newport then declared his
intention to take the sense of the House
upon the question.
Mr. F. Lewis was of opinion, that the
amendment would not accomplish the
object it proposed to have in view.
The committee divided; for the original
motion 42; for the amendment 19; ma-
jority 23.


TOLLS AND CUSTOMS AT FAIRS AND
MARKETS IN IRELAND.] On referring to
vol. xiv, p. 439, it will be seen that Mr.
SpringRice moved, on the 16th ofFebruary,
That an humble Address be presented
to His Majesty, praying that he would
be graciously pleased to give directions,
that a Commission should issue to inquire
into the Tolls and Customs collected in
Fairs, Markets, and Sea-ports in Ireland."
The following is a correct report of what
the honourable member said, in introduc-
ing the said motion:
Mr. Spring Rice said, he rose, in pur-
suance of the notice which he had given,
to bring under the notice of the House a
subject of very considerable importance,
as it affected the trade, manufactures,
and industry of Ireland. The question
was no less a one than whether there
should continue to be exercised in Ireland
a power of taxation, administered by per-
sons who, practically speaking, were irre-
sponsible, and who scrupled not to exact
for their own profits sums exceeding in
annual amount many hundred thousand
pounds, and charged in a manner as
illegal as it was impolitic. The subject
had been brought under the notice of
the committees of both Houses of parlia-
ment, and was recommended by the
report, as deserving the most serious and
early consideration. He would, in a few
words, describe the abuse of which he
complained. At fairs, markets, and sea-
ports in Ireland, tolls and customs were
charged upon the sale and transfer of
all commodities, including articles of the
first necessity, thereby restraining trade,
and enhancing the price upon the con-
sumer. No man could defend the princi-
ple of such a mode of taxation ; and if it
were collected for the benefit of the state,
he felt a confidence that his motion would
have been anticipated by the Board of
Trade, and that a repeal of such absurd
and mischievous burthens would have been
proposed by the ministers of the Crown.
In our days, no man would continue to
vindicate taxes similar to the alcovalas in
Spain, the octroi of France, or the Aus-
trian imposts in Northern Italy. And yet
the local burthens of Ireland were infi-
nitely less defensible. The House would
scarcely credit the extent to which these
exactions had been carried, not only with-
out all law, but contrary to all law, the
mode of collecting them being produc-
tive of still greater mischief. Nor had
the evil yet fully developed itself. In


Tolls and Customls at rares, Pic.






31] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
an early state of society, in which he re-
gretted to admit that Ireland was still
placed, men make a rude and imperfect
attempt to supply all their own wants by
their own labours. The labourer grows
his own flax; his wife spins it, one of his
family may complete it by weaving. In
like manner, woollen goods are produced
for private consumption. Here, as there
is but a limited sale and transfer, a tax
upon sales in markets is, comparatively
speaking, innoxious; but, so soon as a
division of labour takes place, upon which
alone any real accumulation of national
wealth can be founded, a tax upon com-
modities operates most fatally; and,' if it
is high in amount, it prevents or checks
the progress of the division of labour
itself. Thus would these local exactions
be found hereafter to operate in Ireland:
of their present nature he would now pro-
ceed to inform the House. The first point
to which he wished to call the public
attention was the excess of charge.
This he would prove from the returns
made by the persons interested in tolls
themselves. By law, they were bound
to lodge a schedule of these tolls with the
clerk of the Peace; and they could not
complain of the evidence which they
themselves had furnished. He would not
weary the House with many examples; a
few, taken from the south of Ireland,
would serves specimensofthe whole. For
instance at Skibbereen, the toll on coarse
woollen frizes amounts to five per cent
ad valorem; that on corn and meal to
1-16th of the quantity sold. At Bridge-
town, 1-16th of all potatoes sold is
taken as the toll. At Tralee, five per
cent is levied on woollens. At Car-
rick-on-Suir 1-21st of all potatoes. At
Bantry 1-16th. At Killeagh, Shandrum,
and neighboring fairs, the ad valorem
duty is fixed at five per cent, and applies
to almost all the domestic manufactures.
The common charge in the county Cork
is 1-32nd part of potatoes; and at a
market lately established at Blennerville,
in the county Kerry, all corn, butter,
meal, and potatoes, are burthened with
five per cent. The House would judge
of the amount of these taxes when he in-
formed them, that the annual trade of
Tralee and Blennerville, amounted in
value to 100,0001., and that at Sligo, the
toll of 1-32 on corn, would produce an
income of 3,9001. It required no argu.
ment or authority to show, that this was
wholly illegal. Such excess of charge


Tolls and Customs at Fairs, 8;c. [32
was unlikely to be supported by any
charter or patent; but even if it were,
such a charter or patent would be void,
as the Crown could not by its prerogative
sanction such extortion. A grant to that
effect would be void. He spoke under
the correction of the Attorney-general for
Ireland, to whom he appealed for the
correctness of the principle he had laid
down. But this was not all. On various
occasions parliament had interfered, and
on general principles of expediency, had
freed particular articles from any toll or
custom whatever. One exemption had
been enacted for the encouragement of
the linen trade. By the 3 Geo. 3 chap.
34, flax, flax-seed, linen, or hempen
manufactures, and all implements, were
freed from all claims of toll either on the
part of individuals or of corporate bodies.
Yet this exemption was violated in num-
berless instances. Out of fourteen re-
turns from the county of Clare, toll was
charged in nine on linen, and in four
on kelp, an article included in the
exemption. At Macroom, handle linen
is charged three-pence in five-shillings.
At Masseytown, one shilling to one
pound. At Killeagh and Mount Uniake
similar exactions prevail. Even in the
North and East, as at Newry and Car-
lingford, kelp and ashes are included in
the schedules of tolls taken. At Drog-
heda, linens, at Banbridge, flax is taxed.
In Connaught, at Swineford, Newport,
and Loughrea, the same abuses exist.
Even within reach of the trustees of the
linen manufacture, at Dungannon, West-
port, and Clonmel the law is openly vio-
lated.-Was not this a case which required
immediate and effectual interposition.
The 1 Geo. 3 chap. 17, freed all turf
and faggots from toll, and yet, at Atherdee
and Athy, and other places, a claim was
maintained for custom on turf and furze.
Here again was a second violation of a
positive enactment. A third, and still
more mischievous abuse, referred to the
article of potatoes, and was consequently
highly oppressive to the poor. By the
25 Geo. 3 potatoes are directed to be
weighed free of all charge, yet, at Kan-
turk, Balla, Stradbally, Clones, and Stra-
bane, a distinct charge was illegally made
for weighing. Even at Maryborough,
(under the quick observation of his hon.
friend the member for the county) this
illegal extortion was received. The next
case to which he should refer, was the
violation of the 4 Ann, c. 8, which ex-








empted from toll all articles in transit and tearing oaths for which they merited trans-
not sold. The House would scarcely be- portation. Breaches of the peace innu-
lieve, that in the rich and intelligent town merable-a general carelessness respect-
of Belfast, the schedule claimed a toll ing oaths, leading to perjury, were the
upon every car of provisions entering the moral consequences which attended this
fair, and in innumerable other instances, blessed system. He trusted he had made
as at Bandon, Timoleague, and Killiagh, out a case for inquiry, which was what he
the toll is stated to be levied, not on the asked for, and he thought a commission
toll, but on the exposure for sale. Here was the best means of attaining his object.
again he would ask the House was not
this a fit case for serious and imme- HOUSE OF LORDS.
diate consideration? He would next
refer to the evidence given before the Tuesday, iiarch 21.
select committee, which proved not only IRIsH CHARTER SCHOOLS.] The
the evil, but the inefficiency of existing Bishop of Ferns moved, that there be laid
remedies. Dr. Church said,-" I have before the House Copies of all Letters re-
known instances in which the collection ceived from Charter-schools of Ireland by
of tolls and customs at fairs has led to the Secretary of the Incorporated Society
breaches of the peace and great dissatis- of Dublin, and transmitted by him to the
faction. I believe there is very often Commissioners of Education, since the
great abuse. A poor man bringing in year 18 2.
a basket of fish-the first thing taken is Lord King, after adverting to the volu-
a fish for the toll, and they generally take minous evidence of the committee of 1S! 5,
the best fish. I believe the toll taken in complained that the Incorporated Society
kind is the perquisite of the provost or had not attended to the recommendations
magistrate. In case of any abuse the in the report on that occasion. It ap-
complaint would also be made to the peared that the ushir of Stradbally school
provost. There was very much differ- who had been dismissed at the instance
ence of practice between the county of Mr. Leslie Foster, one of the commis-
magistrates and the provost. It was sioners, had since been promoted to a
much taken notice of, and he was re- more lucrative situation. In the memo-
moved by the King's-bench. I believe rial which the usicr had sent to the Board
the government would have removed him in Dublin he spoke of the gentleman by
much earlier if they had had the power of whom he had btcn dismissed, in very dis-
doing so." Mr. Reatd said,-" The respectful terms, describing himn as a
market tolls and customs are very injurious Mr. Leslie Foster." The members of
to business, they impede our business very the board, however, seemed resolved to
considerably; because these are tolls and encourage him, their object being to
Customs I conceive not warranted by law; decry every one who wished to correct
and in many places where they have no abuses. The cause of the usher's dismis-
claim whatever to collect them they sal was cruelty to the children. But how
use force, beating the cattle and pigs very had the board acted? They advanced
much, and bruise and hurt them very him to a more lucrative situation, instead
much indeed." Mr. M'Donnell said- of marking their sense of his conduct in
" Tolls are a great and illegal grievance the way that it deserved.
-levied on every day in the week as well The Bishop of Ferns admitted, that the
as on days allowed by law-levied on conduct of the individual in question had
articles not sold in the market-flour or been very censurable. Three indictments
meal bought at a neighboring mill or for cruelty had been preferred against
town-coals delivered to a customer him, and he was tried the other day be-
though not exposed to sale."-He had fore the lord chief baron in the town of
now traced the grievance in its practice, Maryborough. The jury was composed
but much remained to be said on its partly of Catholics and partly of Protes-

effects. The toll-collectors, often the tants, and they acquitted him on the first
least reputable persons in the community, and second indictment without leaving
excepting, perhaps, the tithe-proctors, the box, and the third was consequently
stood at the entrances of the fairs with abandoned. He did not know that in
a cudgel in one hand and a testament point of form he could move for the
in the other, inflicting assaults for which judge's notes of the trial, but if that were
they ought to be indicted, and adminis- allowed, he should wish to do so. The
VOL. XV. D


MARCH 21, 1826.


Irish Charter Schools.







35] 11 )l~l; OF LOI*.CnLw


usher had been too severe over the chil- and of the public. It could not be, he
dren, and he was removed to a school l.'lhiil, that all those abuses had taken
where he could not exercise his ,.:'f ., place under the inspection ofdi-t iul ,1...
but where his talents, as a practical ma- characters; abuses which, iii .' i Li..
thematician, might be highly useful. He calculated to throw discredit on the na-
had been sent to a school expressly in- tional church, and on .il those engaged
tended for the education of parish clerks under the system. He had read with in-
and schoolmasters, Another serious dignation, the accounts of these abuses,
charge contained in the report was, the as contained in the recorded votes of the
want of religious education in the different other house of parliament; but he hoped
schools. It was stated in that report, to see those statements disproved. The
that in a school in the diocese of Leighlin noble marquis concluded by moving for
and Ferns there re ee twenty of the senior the return, which was ordered.
boys who had never heard of St. Paul.
But lie would only refer to the .*...- .. Con LAWS.] Lord i, said,lie had
in the report where the clrhire was made to present to their lordships a petition
for its own contradiction. It was there against the Corn-laws from one of the
stated, that the scholars were not only ac- largest parishes in the metropolis. The
quainted with the church catechism, but petitioners stated, that they had confidence
with the explanation of it, in which re- in the good intentions of his majesty's
ferences were made to St. Paul not less government. He also had confidence in
than thirty times. ministers, and he was glad to see that they
Lord King : '.i it much better that were likely to receive real support from
the .;'?, rev. prelate should give notice without; for otherwi. :' ..'_' xpect
of a:. i I discussion on this subject than little from within i i i. .. Ii. sin-
indulge in desultory observations with re- cerely trusted they would not be deterred
guard to it. It was said that there were from proceeding in their course, and that
twenty boys who had heard references the public would not slacken their.._ i -,
made to St. Paul, but in his opinion there for, unless ministers were supported by
were very few who had heard one w ord ; ,i.. it would be impossible for them
about Job. He could see no advantage to carry their good intentions into ,:i. ;:.
whatever that was likely to result from In consequence of the part he had taken
this sort of 1, 1 I knowledge, on this i" ..'.. a great deal of' advice
The ',I ..i of Laeidosvn said, he had had been it .. i to him by different per-
a motion connected with this subject to sons. Some had requested him to desist,
submit to their lordships, which would hinting that his speeches were like ser-
have the effect .,! !' i,-; .._ one part of the mons in Lent, and repeated as often.
information required before them. He Others were of opinion that he had a
wished to see a return laid on their lord- vicious propensity to make corn cheap; and
ships' table of the number of scholars in as ri., thought that a vicious propensity
all the charter schools of Ireland, distin- in himn, he must suppose that they con-
S'.,'- . religious persuasions. sidered a disposition to make corn dear a
He agreed with the noble lord, that this virtuous propensity. A third party com-
question ought not to be discussed with- plained that he treated these worthy Corn-
out a I notice, and he should there- laws like a miscreant at the bar of the
fore abstain from making any remarks, !0.1 "P i;'' giving them all kinds of bad
He must, however, express his hope, that 1 ,.... l was blamed for stigmatizing
some satisfactory explanation could be them with more aliases than ever was
*:i..I of what had been stated in ;., l -- iv eir to a thief on his trial: for he had
ment of the past proceedings in the char- 1:.i them the Corn-laws, alias the
tered schools; and which showed the ex- bread-tax, alias the .. I1-.:.; '.. alias
istence of a degree of cruelty and mis- the landlords' tax, and, \. -. ...i.. alias
management quite extraordinary and, the job i :5.. Now, as so much kind-
when it was recollected under what system ness had been shown to him in the way of
of inspection those schools had been advice, he wished to give the House some
placed by parliament, quite unexpected, good advice in return. In the first place,
lie t:I. .,!.r an inquiry was necessary, he would !. of noble lords to reflect what
and he hoped it would be an l. .I. ,.; in- the situation of the country would be if
quiry. ':-.i,.i';.,- was necessary for the the price of corn were to rise consider
satisfactlb. ou' 1,. individuals themselves, ably ? That such an event mighthappe


Corn Laws.







7] Corn Laws.
ras no vain fear. He could state it as
natter of fact, that there was at this time
less corn than usual in i:r in.kii-. in the
country; that the markets were less
crowded with uipiill.-; and that in the
warehouses there was less corn than had
ever been known at any former period.
Now he would seriously ask the House
to consider what the state of things would
be if corn were to rise considerably before
harvest? By such a rise, this i..'I. .
would be thrown into a state of much
greater ,..' .i than it experienced in
1796, 1797, and 1801, because the popula-
tion was low much greater than at that
time; and because there had been for a
:.....-: tI.e past no importation from abroad.
B,. I he believed that a -... ; ,.-.: sup-
ply could not be at once obtained by im-
portation; for he understood that it would
appear from the report which the noble
lord opposite had promised to lay on the
table, that the state of the foreign markets
did not hold out much expectation of
large : and, at least, that they
could not be looked to for any sudden
supply to a large extent. But it was
above all i,'ic.- to be recollected, that ac-
cording to the present law, our p., p -. could
not be opened, and no foreign corn could
be admitted, until the price rose in this
country to 80s.-to an amount which, in
the present state of ft'i"n would be a
.. price, I a period of
.anJi He had lately seen a report
made to the French minister of the in-
terior, in which the price of corn
in .i ..... countries was stated. The
price was -._ i. in franks, but the propor-
tion showed the difference in several parts
of i.- ..1-... According to this statement,
the price in England which was '" :.* 2c,,
was higher than in any other country. At
Amsterdam the average was lC2f 82c.
In France it .. .1,- ;; i : ihe average there
being nearly; I. I only place in
Europe in *.! .. 1,b i! i .ice of corn ap-
proached the 1 ;.'t at which it stood in
E.I.,id, was pain, under the misgovern-
ment ot Ferdinand. Thus their lordships
divided between them a...l that despot
the disgrace of making corn dearer in
England and in Spain than in any other
country of Europe. How was this dis-
grace to be wiped oi. and the evil of
high prices to be corrected ? The only re-
source their lordships had for accomplish-
Ig tlit object, was a revision of the
t'..in-hws.. That, however, he believed,
would not be done until the noble earl


MAacu 21, 1826. j
opposite was resolved to clear away all
the lumber and cobwebs which embarras-
sed and darkened the c. ,ithl-in1.i, he
dismissed all useless members, to go, if
they li:.:-.,, to king Ferdinand, whose
ministers they were well fitted to be. If
the noble earl would take this advice, he
would, when he came to the task of revi-
sion, find that House as plastic as a piece
of potter's clay. But if he did not choose
to do this, there was another way in
which the business might be managed.
When the usual circular at the com-
mencement of next session came to be
written, the noble earl had better address
his old friends in these terms :-"My lord,
parliament is to meet for the despatch of
very important business on the 3rd of Feb-
ruary next, when your lordship's absence
is most earnestly requested." All that
was needful was to get his old friends to
stay away. This was his advice to the
noble earl; but he had said that he
would give advice to the House, and he
would now give it in one word. His ad-
vice to them was simply < Do justice."
What right had that House, or any legis-
lative assembly, to devise means to raise
the price of food ? It would be a breach of
trust, if it could be supposed that so mon-
strous a proposition was acted upon by any
parties in parliament, as to make corn dear
for their own., t.'..:.. a course,
if persisted in, was calculated to bring on
one of those political convulsions, in
which a lawless power might step in, as
was once done in another place, and say
to one, You are an extortioner," to
another You are a i. .. ,. Get
you gone, and : place to honester
men."
Lord Calthorpe thought, that the dis-
cussion of the ..li ; had better be post-
poned to the next session. He did not
think it was for the interest of the land-
lords to maintain the present Corn-laws,
but that importation, under a moderate
dil\. would be more to their ..i i i.l. Ii ..
lie did not conceive that those .,.: I.,d
been proposed ...... any interested motive.
On the .- t ,.,, he believed that they
were submitted to parliament under the
honest conviction that they were not only
good for the landed interest, but for the
public at large. There certainly would
be great evil in .ll... ,; the question to
remain long in its present state. If any
delusion existed on the subject, the best
way to remove it would be to submit the
question to the investigation of a cam-






39] HOUSE OF LORDS,


nittee. The noble earl had very properly
taken this course on a recent occasion.
To neglect to institute an inquiry was not
so much abstaining from discussion as
shutting out that light which it was their
lordships' duty to seek. He thought he
was not l. k.111 on the agricultural
classes of this country, when he said that
they were not so enlightened, or so ready
to form just views on great national ques-
tions, as other classes of the community.
Ministers ought not to hesitate to enter
upon a revision of the Corn-laws; for if
they were even to be defeated in both
Houses of parliament, the attempt to
lower the duty would raise them still
higher in the public esteem. He did not
expect that any great difference in the
price of corn would be the result of an
alteration of the law ; but lie regarded that
alteration as an indispensable step in the
system of wise policy which ministers had
adopted with respect to commerce.
The Earl of Limerick thought, that the
first noble lord's obvervations, though
very inflammatory, carried with them their
own cure. He was struck with the singu-
lar coincidence between the noble lord's
speech, and the name of the place whence
the petition came. It was the petition of
the parish of St. Luke, and much of what
had fallen from the noble lord appeared
to be strongly impregnated with the
quality which was generally supposed to
abound in that parish. The noble lord
had been very free with his advice; but
he was satisfied that both his majesty's
ministers and the House had too much
sense to take it.
Lord Clifden approved of the deter-
mination of his majesty's ministers to
postpone the discussion of the corn ques-
tion to the next session. The consider-
ation of tile currency occupied parliament
to such a degree as would render it very
inconvenient to enter upon a revision of
the Corn-laws. He hoped, however, that
the subject would be brought forward
early next session, and that importation
on a moderate duty would be allowed.
He understood that the gentlemen who
had been sent abroad to make inquiries,
were of opinion that no such quantity of
foreign corn could be introduced as
would hurt the agricultural interest. Some
gentlemen said that the agricultural in-
terest would be ruined by importations.
He did not believe this. The ports had
been opened for barley, and since that pe-
riod, barley had b-en at 52s, per quarter.


It had afterwards fallen to 32s., but that
was not in consequence of importation.
He was in Munster when the ports were
opened for the admission of oats, and
there the people all expected to be ruined.
They were horror-struck, and said that
oats would be down to 5s. the barrel or
15s. a quarter ; but this was not the case.
He was not one of those who thought that
corn must be very cheap before the la-
bourers could be comfortable; but until
they had the value of a bushel and a
half of wheat a week, they could not be
comfortable. As long as they only re-
ceived about 7s. a week, when wheat was at
10s. a bushel, their lot must be miserable.
This, or worse than this, was the case in
the south and west of England. The
farmers gave the labourers 5s. a week,
and made up their wages out of the poor
rates.
Ordered to lie on the table.

BANK NOTES PAYABLE WHERE IS-
SUED.] The Marquis of Lansdown rose
to call their lordships' attention, and par-
ticularly the attention of the noble earl
opposite, to a topic which had been men-
tioned on a former occasion. He alluded
to the practice of many bankers issuing
promissory notes of making them payable
at some place distant from where they
were issued. This was a practice which
could not be defended. He knew that
by the bill which had lately received their
lordships' sanction, bankers would at the
end of three years be obliged to make
their notes payable at the place where they
were issued; but lie thought this evil
ought not to be allowed to continue so
long. When the practice had been men-
tioned on a former occasion, the noble
earl opposite had doubted whether it was
so extensive as was stated. Now, he had
heard of fifty-five banks which issued pro-
missory notes that were not payable out of
London. He had heard, indeed, that one
bank, as far off as Aberdeen, made its
notes payable in London. The branch
banks of the Bank of Ireland issued the
notes of that Bank payable only in Dub-
lin, and circulated them all over the south
of Ireland; at present those notes were at
a discount, and in the large towns of the
south, such as Cork, could not be dis-
posed of without the loss of 4d. This he
knew was the case within the last fort-
night. Great mischief must result from
this practice, and the legislature ought
not to allow its existence. He was at a


Banlk Notes P~ayable where issued.






11 c
tij X Or_.:ry ef Bavk No?~,.!:r ~ tes.


loss how to frame a motion on the sub-
ject, so as to produce any information to
be laid on their lordships' table; but if
the noble earl opposite would give him
assistance, he might, perhaps, ln.0i,-,pli-h
his object. At present, he .,.1 not !.i..~ ,
to what office an order, requiring to be
laid on their lordships' table, an account
of the number of banks issuing notes not
payable at the spot where they were is-
sued, could be sent, or he should certainly
make a motion to that effect. Their lord-
ships must recollect, that it was not only
one and two pound notes that were so
payable, but I.t c r rmt. and he thought
the names 'f the:- bnklri, who did this
ought to be known to the public. Though
lie should not conclude by making any
motion, he was glad to take that oppor-
tunity of calling the attention of the noble
earl opposite to the subject.
The Earl of Liverpool said, he should
be very ready to give the noble marquis
any assistance in his power in obt.ini:ii,:
the information he wished, but hr ,.i ..1 r
know how it could be accomplished. It
was desirous on many accounts to correct
the evil he had pointed out ; but, as the
law stood, he did not see how it could be
immediately corrected. A clause had
been added to the bill, which had lately
received their lordships' assent, and which
would in a day or two receive the royal
assent, by a noble friend of his, comnpel-
,... all banks, at the period when that
act came into operation, to pay their
notes at the places where they were issued.
But it was not supposed possible, with
any regard to what he might call vested
rights, to make that clause .,.... l.::r ,
operative. If the notes were now to be
stamped, he should say, certainly, that
none should be issued to bankers who did
not come under that obligation; but the
notes were already stamped, and most of
those which were to circulate for the next
three years were most probably oil,. idl,
in circulation. It had, il..r_.i ., been
thought, that the clause could not be
brought into operation before the period
:Ic ;pind for the act to take effect. Agree-
ing in principle with the noble marquis,
he ilh-.lht their lordships might, in any
bill which was brought in to regulate the
issues of notes either in Scotland or Ire-
land, make such a clause a part of the
bill, and it might be brought 'in, .li.ti.l
into operation. 1.cin if they were not to
I. ...-lan: ; other respects for Scotland and
ditl.nd, ihey might legislate in this.


The Ma1i .li of Lansdown said, he was
sensible that there was a ditficult- in the
way of any proposition on the subject with
respect to England; but as to Ireland
and Scotland he saw none. As much evil
might arise in those countries from the
circulation of small notes not payable at
the place where :!.lk wt. ire i. t.lr d he would,
after the Easter recess, call their lordships'
attention to the subject. This he con-
sidered indispensable, whatever might be
the nature of any measure which might
emanate from the committee.
The Lord Chancellor said, that in the
last session but one, a case had been
brought before their lordships by writ of
error, in which a promissory note or bill
of exchange had been made payable in
London. A question had arisen, whether
it was sufficient that a demand for pay-
ment of that note had been made in the
country, or whether it must be made in
London? On this subject the judges
were divided; several of them thought it
was not necessary that the demand should
be made in London; but the imIji iti. :nd
their lordships were of the ~;'ln, pi,-p,.n,
thought that it was necessary to make
the demand in London, and that the
declaration should contain an averment
that it had been made. But since that
period, an act had been passed, making
promissory notes payable in London, de-
mandable elsewhere, unless it was ex-
pressly stated on the note that it was
. -, :'.,. only in London. If this were the
case, country bank notes fell under this
law; and if not made payable .i1t in
London, payment of them might be de-
manded at the place where they were
issued. He would examine the law on the
" ii.. i. to see if the opinion he had thrown
out was correct, and would report the
result to their lordships.
The Earl of Limerick, as an Irishman,
was thankful to the noble marquis for
I. .i brought this subject before their
.!,I;-,l.:. The notes of the Dublin Bank
were payable only in Dublin.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
T.- .'. -. ', March 21.
FORGERY OF BANK OF ENGLAND
NOTEs.] Lord F. ', .:*.. .. presented a pe-
tition, very ntlmii,, I-1V signed, from the
inhabitants ot I:'L ud.ie, praying for an
alteration of the Corn Laws, a reform in
parliament, and a reduction of taxation.
Colonel Johnson warmly supported the


MrARCH 21, 152%6. [42a








empted from toll all articles in transit and tearing oaths for which they merited trans-
not sold. The House would scarcely be- portation. Breaches of the peace innu-
lieve, that in the rich and intelligent town merable-a general carelessness respect-
of Belfast, the schedule claimed a toll ing oaths, leading to perjury, were the
upon every car of provisions entering the moral consequences which attended this
fair, and in innumerable other instances, blessed system. He trusted he had made
as at Bandon, Timoleague, and Killiagh, out a case for inquiry, which was what he
the toll is stated to be levied, not on the asked for, and he thought a commission
toll, but on the exposure for sale. Here was the best means of attaining his object.
again he would ask the House was not
this a fit case for serious and imme- HOUSE OF LORDS.
diate consideration? He would next
refer to the evidence given before the Tuesday, iiarch 21.
select committee, which proved not only IRIsH CHARTER SCHOOLS.] The
the evil, but the inefficiency of existing Bishop of Ferns moved, that there be laid
remedies. Dr. Church said,-" I have before the House Copies of all Letters re-
known instances in which the collection ceived from Charter-schools of Ireland by
of tolls and customs at fairs has led to the Secretary of the Incorporated Society
breaches of the peace and great dissatis- of Dublin, and transmitted by him to the
faction. I believe there is very often Commissioners of Education, since the
great abuse. A poor man bringing in year 18 2.
a basket of fish-the first thing taken is Lord King, after adverting to the volu-
a fish for the toll, and they generally take minous evidence of the committee of 1S! 5,
the best fish. I believe the toll taken in complained that the Incorporated Society
kind is the perquisite of the provost or had not attended to the recommendations
magistrate. In case of any abuse the in the report on that occasion. It ap-
complaint would also be made to the peared that the ushir of Stradbally school
provost. There was very much differ- who had been dismissed at the instance
ence of practice between the county of Mr. Leslie Foster, one of the commis-
magistrates and the provost. It was sioners, had since been promoted to a
much taken notice of, and he was re- more lucrative situation. In the memo-
moved by the King's-bench. I believe rial which the usicr had sent to the Board
the government would have removed him in Dublin he spoke of the gentleman by
much earlier if they had had the power of whom he had btcn dismissed, in very dis-
doing so." Mr. Reatd said,-" The respectful terms, describing himn as a
market tolls and customs are very injurious Mr. Leslie Foster." The members of
to business, they impede our business very the board, however, seemed resolved to
considerably; because these are tolls and encourage him, their object being to
Customs I conceive not warranted by law; decry every one who wished to correct
and in many places where they have no abuses. The cause of the usher's dismis-
claim whatever to collect them they sal was cruelty to the children. But how
use force, beating the cattle and pigs very had the board acted? They advanced
much, and bruise and hurt them very him to a more lucrative situation, instead
much indeed." Mr. M'Donnell said- of marking their sense of his conduct in
" Tolls are a great and illegal grievance the way that it deserved.
-levied on every day in the week as well The Bishop of Ferns admitted, that the
as on days allowed by law-levied on conduct of the individual in question had
articles not sold in the market-flour or been very censurable. Three indictments
meal bought at a neighboring mill or for cruelty had been preferred against
town-coals delivered to a customer him, and he was tried the other day be-
though not exposed to sale."-He had fore the lord chief baron in the town of
now traced the grievance in its practice, Maryborough. The jury was composed
but much remained to be said on its partly of Catholics and partly of Protes-

effects. The toll-collectors, often the tants, and they acquitted him on the first
least reputable persons in the community, and second indictment without leaving
excepting, perhaps, the tithe-proctors, the box, and the third was consequently
stood at the entrances of the fairs with abandoned. He did not know that in
a cudgel in one hand and a testament point of form he could move for the
in the other, inflicting assaults for which judge's notes of the trial, but if that were
they ought to be indicted, and adminis- allowed, he should wish to do so. The
VOL. XV. D


MARCH 21, 1826.


Irish Charter Schools.






43] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
petition, and observed, that the measure
called for by it were the only effect
ones for giving relief to the country.
this House attention seemed to be paid
all classes but the poor, who were at th
moment in various parts of the country
a state of starvation. The hon. memb
then alluded to the new circulation
one-pound notes, and said that th(
baneful effects were beginning to be di
played by the convictions of six men f
forgery, which had taken place at t'
Assizes for Lancaster. He wished to knc
what steps government meant to take upI
this occurrence.
Mr. Secretary Peel said, that he kn(
nothing of these trials or convictions b
through the same channels ofcommunic
tion which were open to the public.
Mr. Grenfell observed, that the convi
tion of six unfortunate men for the crir
of forgery of one-pound notes was,
feared, but the recommencement cf tl
frightful system of temptation to forget
and consequent execution from which t
country had been for some time at breath
ing. -e begged to ask his majesty's g
government, whether the new circulation
Bank of England one-pound notes was
be as likely to expose the country to t
frightful evils of which he had spoken,
it had been hitherto ? Ila] the Ba
done, or were they about to do, any thi
which would make the forgery of th
notes more difficult ? He admitted t
impossibility of making an inimitable no
but much could be done to enhance t
difficulty of imitating those at present
circulation. It was a fact, that forgeries
country bank notes were very unfreque
But why was this, except that the coun
bankers took greater pains to guard th
paper agT:aist imitation ? Ie hoped tl
the Bank would feel the serious respor
ability under which it lay, and devise so
means of diminishing the temptation to t
most frightful of crimes.
Mr. Wells agreed as to the great facil
with which Bank of England notes mil
be imitated. It was incumbent on I
Bank of England to endeavour, by evi
means in their power, to limit these fac
ties. The notes of the Bank of Irelt
were not so easily imitated, and forget
of them were comparatively unfrequen
Mr. Irving said, that the Bank of Em
land were as anxious to put a stop
forgery as any body could be. In pr
of that, they had appointed a committee
inquire into the subject, which was


Forgery of Bank of England Notes. [44
es ceasing in its labours for twelve months,
al and had examined the most eminent artists
In in the metropolis, at an expense of
to 80,0001. But, notwithstanding all the inge-
at nious suggestions of the persons examined,
in it was found to be impossible to make a
er note incapable of imitation.
of Mr. Home Drummond thought it un-
:ir candid to charge upon the notes of the
s- Bank of England those faults which were
or incident to all bank notes. The notes of
he the Scotch banks were not better exe-
iw cuted ; and as for the country bank notes,
an nothing could be more clumsy or worse
executed. The frequent forgeries upon
ew the Bank of England were, therefore, not
ut to be accounted for otherwise than by
a- reference to the facility of imitating the
note, and lie should say that the extent
c- of circulation of that note over all others,
ne and more particularly in London, and the
he quickness with which it circulated, were
iat more plausible explanations oftlhedisparity.
Vy, Such was the ingenuity displayed in the
he forgery of notes, that it was impossible to
;I- prevent it.
;o- Mr. Eliice hoped, that the fact which
of had been stated that night would have
to the effect of making the Bank pause
he before they proceeded to take advantage
as of the clause in the bill just passed, and
nk again deluge the country with a material
n)' so pregnant with temptation to crime.
eir For three years the public had got rid of
he this pernicious circulation, which as soon
te, as it again showed its head, produced fresh
he crimes and fresh executions. For the sake
in of humanity, he hoped this would be the
of last instance of so prodigal a sacrifice of
nt. human life.
try Sir M. WI. Ridley admitted, that it was
eir impossible to produce a perfectly inimita-
hat ble bank note, but, from the specimens
isi- he had seen, he was clearly of opinion
me that the present note might be very much
:he improved. It was certainly unfair to say,
that because Bank of England notes were
ity more often, they were therefore more
lght easily imitated. It should be recollected,
the that these notes were differently circum-
ery stanced from all others. The notes of
ili- country bankers circulated within a small
mnd compass, and the handwriting of the
ies banker was known, perhaps, to every man
t. in trade within the particular district.
ng- But it was not so with the Bank of Eng-
to land note. He did not think that from
oof any superiority in the form of the note,
Sto nor even by getting rid of a paper circula-
un- tion, we should put an end to crime; for







45] Stale of Prisons in Scotland.
when there were no bank notes, the
calender of crime teemed with coiners.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, it wasridiculous
to compare the quantity of crime com-
mitted by coining with that committed by
forgery. For the last three years the
system had had a fair trial, and what was
the result? That some convictions had
undoubtedly taken place for coining, but
in no proportion to the number convicted
of forgery during the paper system. At
the same time it should be recollected,
that at no period were the five-pound notes
out of circulation, and that one of the cases
at Lancaster was for forging a five-pound
note. He was ready to admit that the
one-pound note was more easily passed
away, and that many would try their hand
at that, who would be afraid to attempt a
larger one. The question here was, whe-
ther or not the Bank were to blame ? The
impossibility of making an inimitable note
being admitted, how could the Bank be
reproached, more particularly after the
statement made by one of the Directors,
that in the attempt to enhance the diiii-
culty of forging a note, they had expenided
no less than S0,0001.? There could be
no doubt but that the wishes of the Bank
concurred with their interest in putting a
stop to forgeries. These prosecutions
were conducted at a great expense, and
the Bank could not be insensible to the
effect which they had produced on the
public mind. He had always thought
that, though it might be impossible to
make an inimitable note, the prospect of
engrafting some improvement upon the
present note was not hopeless. It was
worthy of remark that the Bank of Ireland
notes were not forged, although the temp-
tation as to the extent of their circulation
was comparatively as great. He was
decidedly of opinion that something might
be done to the Bank of England note to
render it more difficult of imitation.
Ordered to lie on the table.

STATE OF PRISONS IN SCOTLAND.]
The Lord Advocate of Scotland said, that
in making his proposed motion, he had to
inform the House, that the prisons of'
Scotland were entirely under the guar-
dianship of certain royal boroughs, which
were not possessed of revenues sufficient
for their maintenance. The consequence
was, that the gaols of that country were
of the worst possible description, and their
management of them a disgrace to any
country. The apartments were always


MARCH 21, 1826. [46
few in number ; there was no classification
whatever of the prisoners ; in many of
them there was not even a fire-place, and
the persons under confinement were ex-
posed to the greatest of inconveniences.
These unhappy persons had to undergo
severities which were truly dreadful, and
those severities were inflicted without dis-
tinction of age or sex. Persons, both
before and after conviction, the debtor
and the criminal, were all mixed together,
and thrust into a space totally inadequate
to their accommodation. But he had also
to complain of the improper persons to
whom the charge of gaols was committed.
These people were often in other employ-.
ments, and were sometimes shopkeepers
in the town. They did not reside in the
gaols; and in the event of accidents, they
were totally unacquainted with what hap-
pened. In one case, the gaoler lived at.
a distance of sixteen miles from the pri.
son; in another instance, the gaoler was
stone-blind, and the gaol was managed by
his daughter. There was a crown debtor
in this very gaol for the sum of 7,00'01
The House would see that the blind
gaoler could not give his eye to the pri.
soners; and as to the daughter, it might
occur that the prisoners might be giving
an eye to her. lHe thought the subject
deserving of immiediate attention, and lie,
therefore, moved That a select com-
mittee be appointed to inquire into the
State of Prisons in Scotland, and into the
means of ainainting prisoners confined
therein under crimiin 1 warrants ; and to
report heir observations thereupon to
the House."
Mr. Hunme said, he rose to second the
motion of the learned lord with pleasure,
because it was a disgrace to Scotland
that such a system should have been
allowed to continue so long. The only
reason he could assign for its continuance
was, that the prisons were in general
empty, and the number of prisoners so
few, that their condition excited little at-
tention. The learned lord would do great
good by inquiry.
Mr. Secretary Peel said, that it would
be highly convenient if the smaller juris-
dictions of Scotland would agree to unite,
six or seven of them together, in the
erection of one large and convenient gaol.
The more extensive a gaol was, the more
certain it was to be well managed; both
because it could afford to pay proper offi-
cers, and because public curiosity was ex-
cited, and it was sure to be visited more







471 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
constantly than a small one. To main-
tain a sufficient and well-disciplined gaol
for each of the small burghs in Scotland
was impossible. He did not wish to mix
their jurisdictions ; but merely that they
should build a gaol in common, which all
alike should be entitled to the occupation
of. Last year he had brought in a bill to
enable local jurisdictions to compound
with counties for the support of their pri-
soners. To attempt by any other means
to obtain a good government of prisoners,
was altogether hopeless.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

FIRST-FRUITS IN IRELAND.] Sir
John Newport rose to call the attention of
the House to the state of the First-Fruits
Fundin Ireland, with a view Io improveand
render it more effectual. The right hon.
baronet then proceeded to give a history
of the establishment of this fund, and of
the uses to which it was intended to be
applied. The act of queen Anne de-
clared that the first-fruits were to be ap-
propriated to the purposes of building
and repairing churches, providing glebes
wherever they were wanting, and also for
the more liberal support of the clergy.
At the period when this fund was formed,
there was also collected in Ireland, from
the different benefices, one-twentieth, and
from the different benefices in England,
one-tenth of their valuation, which were
to be applied to the same purposes. The
valuation of that period, with respect to
Ireland, had remained the same ever since,
although it was manifest, that the real
value of livings must have been greatly
increased. The consequence was, that
the sums which the clergy ought really to
pay for the building and repair of churches
were obliged to be supplied by the state
at large. In the act of parliament which
related to England, a clause was inserted,
with respect to the propriety of having
new valuations, at particular periods,
which had not found its way into the
Irish statute on the same subject; the
consequence of which was, that no new
valuation had been made in that country.
Now, it appeared to him quite evident,
that, from time to time, as the value of
the living increased, the amount of the
first-fruit should be increased also. This
was a deduction perfectly clear in his
mind; because it was a grant of the pro-
perty of the Crown, made by the Crown
for the better support of the church and
of the church establishment, and not for


First-Fruits in Ireland. [48
the private benefit of individuals. He be-
lieved that one-fourth of these benefices
in Ireland had not been valued at all ; and
that of those which had been valued, the
valuation was not, at the present day, a
just and efficient one. He begged the
House to attend while he pointed out the
difference between the valuation of the
benefices in the English and Irish church.
During seven years, ending with the year
1824, the archbishoprics and bishoprics
of Ireland contributed 9101. to the first-
fruits during the same period, the arch-
bishoprics and bishoprics of England,
yielded to the first-fruits fund, 5,4191., in-
dependent of the sum of 8,8211. which was
the produce of the twentieths. It should be
observed, that the collection of one-twen-
tieth on the valuation of the Irish benefices
hadbeen long since removed; and therefore
they were more able to pay an additional
sum to the first-fruits fund. Here, how-
ever, it appeared that in seven years the
Irish livings paid only 9101., while those
of England paid, under the two heads he
had mentioned 14,2401. Since he had
last addressed the House on this subject,
the tithe-composition act had taken effect
in many places in Ireland; and the pro-
ceedings under that act proved how dif-
ferent, in point of fact, was the existing
valuation by which the contribution to
the first-fruits fund was regulated, and
what the livings really were worth. In
the diocess of Cloyne, 95 livings were
valued at 2581. 12s., and 25 of these 95
had compounded for their tithes. Could
the House imagine for what sum they
compounded? That composition produc-
ed no less than 10,5801. A very large
sum, not less than 600,0001., sufficient to
meet every object for which these first-
fruits were intended, was thus diverted
from its legitimate channel. Was it to
be allowed that the clergy should put so
much wealth into their pockets, when it
ought to be applied, as a royal bounty, to
the building and repairing of churches?
Were the first-fruits to be permitted to
remain thus unproductive, while the Ro-
man Catholic peasantry were obliged to
contribute to the repairing and building
of places of worship which they did not
attend ? When the Crown expressly said,
"this fund shall be appropriated to certain
purposes," it was highly fitting that the
intention of the Crown should be strictly
observed. It could not be doubted, that
if this property had remained in the hands
of the Crown, the Crown could have corn-






11 c
tij X Or_.:ry ef Bavk No?~,.!:r ~ tes.


loss how to frame a motion on the sub-
ject, so as to produce any information to
be laid on their lordships' table; but if
the noble earl opposite would give him
assistance, he might, perhaps, ln.0i,-,pli-h
his object. At present, he .,.1 not !.i..~ ,
to what office an order, requiring to be
laid on their lordships' table, an account
of the number of banks issuing notes not
payable at the spot where they were is-
sued, could be sent, or he should certainly
make a motion to that effect. Their lord-
ships must recollect, that it was not only
one and two pound notes that were so
payable, but I.t c r rmt. and he thought
the names 'f the:- bnklri, who did this
ought to be known to the public. Though
lie should not conclude by making any
motion, he was glad to take that oppor-
tunity of calling the attention of the noble
earl opposite to the subject.
The Earl of Liverpool said, he should
be very ready to give the noble marquis
any assistance in his power in obt.ini:ii,:
the information he wished, but hr ,.i ..1 r
know how it could be accomplished. It
was desirous on many accounts to correct
the evil he had pointed out ; but, as the
law stood, he did not see how it could be
immediately corrected. A clause had
been added to the bill, which had lately
received their lordships' assent, and which
would in a day or two receive the royal
assent, by a noble friend of his, comnpel-
,... all banks, at the period when that
act came into operation, to pay their
notes at the places where they were issued.
But it was not supposed possible, with
any regard to what he might call vested
rights, to make that clause .,.... l.::r ,
operative. If the notes were now to be
stamped, he should say, certainly, that
none should be issued to bankers who did
not come under that obligation; but the
notes were already stamped, and most of
those which were to circulate for the next
three years were most probably oil,. idl,
in circulation. It had, il..r_.i ., been
thought, that the clause could not be
brought into operation before the period
:Ic ;pind for the act to take effect. Agree-
ing in principle with the noble marquis,
he ilh-.lht their lordships might, in any
bill which was brought in to regulate the
issues of notes either in Scotland or Ire-
land, make such a clause a part of the
bill, and it might be brought 'in, .li.ti.l
into operation. 1.cin if they were not to
I. ...-lan: ; other respects for Scotland and
ditl.nd, ihey might legislate in this.


The Ma1i .li of Lansdown said, he was
sensible that there was a ditficult- in the
way of any proposition on the subject with
respect to England; but as to Ireland
and Scotland he saw none. As much evil
might arise in those countries from the
circulation of small notes not payable at
the place where :!.lk wt. ire i. t.lr d he would,
after the Easter recess, call their lordships'
attention to the subject. This he con-
sidered indispensable, whatever might be
the nature of any measure which might
emanate from the committee.
The Lord Chancellor said, that in the
last session but one, a case had been
brought before their lordships by writ of
error, in which a promissory note or bill
of exchange had been made payable in
London. A question had arisen, whether
it was sufficient that a demand for pay-
ment of that note had been made in the
country, or whether it must be made in
London? On this subject the judges
were divided; several of them thought it
was not necessary that the demand should
be made in London; but the imIji iti. :nd
their lordships were of the ~;'ln, pi,-p,.n,
thought that it was necessary to make
the demand in London, and that the
declaration should contain an averment
that it had been made. But since that
period, an act had been passed, making
promissory notes payable in London, de-
mandable elsewhere, unless it was ex-
pressly stated on the note that it was
. -, :'.,. only in London. If this were the
case, country bank notes fell under this
law; and if not made payable .i1t in
London, payment of them might be de-
manded at the place where they were
issued. He would examine the law on the
" ii.. i. to see if the opinion he had thrown
out was correct, and would report the
result to their lordships.
The Earl of Limerick, as an Irishman,
was thankful to the noble marquis for
I. .i brought this subject before their
.!,I;-,l.:. The notes of the Dublin Bank
were payable only in Dublin.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
T.- .'. -. ', March 21.
FORGERY OF BANK OF ENGLAND
NOTEs.] Lord F. ', .:*.. .. presented a pe-
tition, very ntlmii,, I-1V signed, from the
inhabitants ot I:'L ud.ie, praying for an
alteration of the Corn Laws, a reform in
parliament, and a reduction of taxation.
Colonel Johnson warmly supported the


MrARCH 21, 152%6. [42a







49] First-Fruits in Ireland.
handed a valuation at any time; and was
parliament, because the Crown had di-
vested itself of its right for the benefit of
the church, to allow its gift to remain un-
productive, so far as the object of the
Crown was concerned? Primate Boulter,
shortly after his arrival in Ireland, wrote
to the archbishop of Canterbury, stating
that he hoped to induce his brethren to
consent to a larger payment on account
of these first-fruits. Primate Boulter
thought it right that the clergy should
make their own especial fund productive,
before they called on the state to assist
them in building and repairing churches.
His proposition was, however, ungra-
ciously received, and produced no good
effect. An effort was made, early in his
late majesty's reign, to institute an inquiry
as to the best means of making those first-
fruits more productive; but, perhaps,
from the same causes that operated
against Primate Boulter's attempt, it also
was dropped and thrown aside. The state
was now from time to time called on to
make grants, which he contended ought
to be defrayed out of these first-fruits.
The bishops lands and glebe-lands in Ire-
land, amounted to no less than 700,000
acres, mostly plantation acres, which
was nearly equal to 1,000,000 of English
acres ; but the produce to the first-fruits
fund was, as he had shown, scarcely
any thing. He would very briefly
show, from a return which had been
laid before the House, the difference of
the produce of the first-fruits in Eng-
land and Ireland. The livings within the
jurisdiction of the primate of Ireland
yielded 4001., while the see of Canterbury
produced 2,6801. The diocess of Clogher,
which was worth at least 10,0001. a-year,
paid 3501. To make the matter short,
the entire of the archbishoprics and
bishoprics in Ireland were valued at
3,1771., while the archbishoprics and
bishoprics in England were valued, for
the first-fruits only, at 21,3951. exclusive
of the valuation for their tenths, amount-
ing to 8,8611. Under these circumstances,
he certainly should place on the Journals
-if he could not succeed in carrying it
-a resolution, commencing with a state-
ment of what the nature of the first-
fruits fund was-pointing out the manner
in which queen Anne intended they should
be applied-showing that it was nothing
more than just and equitable that grants
made by the Crown for specific objects
ought to be rendered efficient for the pur-
VOL. XV.


MARCH 21, 1826. [50
pose of those objects-declaring that the
House would no longer allow grants to
be charged on particular classes of peo-
ple, by parochial taxation, or on the great
body of the nation, by parliamentary votes,
for purposes that ought to be met by the
first-fruits fund-and calling for a com-
mittee to inquire into the whole subject,
and to report its opinion thereon to the
House.-The right hon. baronet con-
cluded by moving,
1. That the First-Fruits, or Annates,
being the first yearly income of every
ecclesiastical dignity or benefice in Ire-
land, became at the Reformation, toge-
ther with the twentieth parts, or twelve
pence in the pound, payable annually,
a part of the revenue of the Crown, as
head of the church, and continued an-
nexed to the royal revenues until the
year 1710:
That her majesty queen Anne did,
in that year, as a special act of grace
and favour to the established church of
Ireland, by letters patent, confirmed by
authority of parliament, vest in trustees
and commissioners the produce of the
revenue of first-fruits, for the purposes
of building and repairing churches, for
the purchase of glebes were wanting, and
of impropriations wherever the benefice
was not sufficient for the liberal mainte-
nance of the clergy having cure of souls ;
and did at the same time absolutely re-
lease them from the payment of the
aforesaid twentieth parts, although a
corresponding payment was retained by
the queen, and still remains payable by
the clergy of England out of their dig-
nities and benefices:
That it appears, from returns laid
before this House, that, in seven years
ending 1824, the archbishoprics and
bishoprics contributed to the first-fruit
fund of Ireland the sum of 9101. 10s. Id.;
and that those of England, in the like
period, paid for first-fruits 5,4191. 9s. 10d.,
and for the twentieth parts 8,8511. 4s. 6d.
making in the whole 14,2701., and up-
wards:
That the gross amount of the entire
first-fruit fund of Ireland, thus vested in
trust for these great and salutary objects
connected with the ecclesiastical esta-
blishment, during ten years, ending
January 1821, amounted to 3,7521., from
which 8271. were deducted for salaries
and incidents:
That 467, being nearly one third
part of the dignities and benefices of Ire-
E






51] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
land, have never been rated or valued for
payment of first-fruits, and 366 more,
from tie low rate at which they were
valued in an early period, do not contri-
bute to the fund, and that the whole of
the archbishoprics and bishoprics of Ire-
land are estimated, with the other eccle-
siastical dignities, in that early valuation,
as being of 4,4271. annual value :
That it appears just and equitable
that this branch of royal revenue, liberally
appropriated by the Cro'wn for salutary
objects, specially connected with the
maintenance of the church of Ireland
(at the same time that a great remission
of burthens affecting the clergy thereof
was granted by the royal munificence),
should be rendered actually efficient for
the attainment of the valuable purposes
for which the grant was made, and that
the deficiency created by this inadequate
valuation should be no longer supplied
by the imposition of additional charge
on the body of the people by parochial
taxation, or on the funds of the United
Kingdom by parliamentary grant."
2. That it be referred to a select
committee to consider whether any and
what legislative measures may be neces-
sary to effect these just and salutary
objects; and that they do report their
observations and opinion thereupon to
the House."
The first resolution being put from
the chair,
Mr. Goiduurn said, that, as this question
had already been under discussion four
different times, he might perhaps be ex-
cused, if he abstained altogether from
following the right hon. baronet through
the course of argument which he had
thought proper to pursue, and trust to
the opinions which the House had formerly
expressed upon the subject. The prin-
ciple upon which the right hon. baronet
wished to act would involve the interests
not only of the clergy of Ireland and
England, but also the interests of many
other orders of the state. The principle
upon which the right hon. baronet wished
to act was this, that the clergy of Ireland
should be obliged to build and repair all
the churches in that country, out of the
incomes which they received as a reward
for the discharge of their sacred duties.
The right lion. baronet stated, that the
archbishops of Ireland did not pay an
equal portion of first-fruits with those of
England; and therefore he proposed
going into a committee to throw back


First-Fruits in Ireland. [52
upon the Irish clergy a burthen which
ought always to be borne by the public
at large. De could consider the resolu-
tions of the right hon. baronet in no other
light than as an attack upon the establish-
ed church [hear, hear !]. He repeated,
that he could look upon the resolutions
in no other light than as an attack upon
the established church; and he should
make it appear, before he sat down, that
it was so. He should first point out the
inaccuracy of the right hon. baronet's
facts; and secondly, he should show the
incorrectness of his law; and after this,
he would leave it to the House to form
their own conclusions. And first, if the
right hon. baronet meant to say that the
pope (for it was necessary to go back to
the origin of these first-fruits)-if the
right hon. baronet meant to say that the
pope ever exacted first-fruits upon the
full value of benefices, he was greatly
mistaken. On the contrary, if he turned
to the law authorities, lie would see, that
even at the time of the most extravagant
demands of his holiness, the valuation
was taken only upon one half, and that
even then it was considered a greatgriev-
ance. The same argument held good
when the first-fruits became vested in the
Crown; and if the right hon. baronet
entertained a contrary opinion, he would
find himself unable to support it. Again,
the right hon. baronet was incorrect as
to his law. And here he had to regret
the absence of his right hon. friend, the
attorney-general for Ireland, who had
on a former occasion so clearly demon-
strated to the House, the fallacy of the
right lhon. baronet's arguments, and
had proved to their satisfaction, that the
statute of Henry 8th did not bear the
construction put upon it by him. His
right hon. and learned friend had clearly
shown, that the valuation at that time
was taken upon such fair composition as
might be agreed upon by the parties.
the 28th chapter of the act of Henry 8th
made special provision, that the valuation
should be made strictly in this way. One
clause directed, that the chancellor, the
master of the Rolls, and the lord trea-
surer, should be enabled to regulate and
compound the first-fruits, and should
search out and determine the true and
proper valuation upon which they ought
to be paid. He did not wish to fatigue
the House by going through the whole
clause of the act, but it was sufficient for
his argument to show that such was its






53] First-Fruits in Ireland.
intendment. By the 26th of Henry the
8th, it was provided, that the pope should
compound for the first-fruits ; and if the
pope refused to do so, then the king was
to take the first-fruits into his own hands,
and arrange a fair and equitable compo-
sition. He was aware that a subsequent
statute had been passed with a view to
the tenths; but that appointed a com-
mittee to inquire into the details in the
different parts of the country, and was,
in principle, totally different from the
other. If he was correct in his opinions
upon this subject, then the right hon.
baronet must be mistaken in his statement
relative to the first-fruits; and if it ap-
peared that the statute of Henry the 8th
had no reference to a new valuation, then
there was at once an end to the right
hon. baronet's argument. The plain
question for the consideration of the
House was this-Were they now to adopt
a new valuation of those first-fruits; or,
in other words, was the House in a situa-
tion to say that the incomes of the clergy
ought to be taxed, for the purpose of
building and repairing all the churches
in Ireland ? He could never allow it to
be said, that the churches were erected
more for the benefit of the clergy than of
the community; and it being admitted,
on all hands, that churches were neces-
sary, were they to be built by the clergy
only, or by the community at large ? The
right hon. baronet had adverted to the dif-
ference between present and former valua-
tions in particular instances. He admitted
that the valuation of first-fruits had been
fixed by the statute of Henry 8th, and that
they had gone on for a period of nearly
three hundred years at that valuation,
without any alteration either in England
or in Ireland. But lie would ask the
right hon. baronet, were there no other
changes which would, upon his prin-
ciple, make similar alterations necessary ?
Did there exist no feudal tenures in Ire-
land which might be altered upon grounds
as plausible ? Could he carry into effect
his proposed project without making a
similar alteration with respect to head
rents? And then the right hon. baronet
had pointed out the difference between
English and Irish first-fruits. No doubt
that difference did exist. Tenths had
been levied in England, while only twen-
tieths had been called for in Ireland. It
should be remembered, however, that at
that period Treland waf. considered to be
entitled to particular indulgence, and that


MARnH 21, 1826. [54
indulgence was further shewn by taking
off the twentieths in Ireland, while the
tenths were continued in England. But
when the right hon. baronet talked of
these differences between English and
Irish sees, he proved too much; for as
great, if not a greater difference, could
be shewn between English sees, as com-
pared with each other. He would in-
stance those of St. Asaph's, Chester, and
Bangor, in illustration of his argument.
If the impropriety of granting money by
parliament, for the purpose of building
churches were to be made a ground for
adopting the course proposed by the right
hon. baronet, what protection had the
English clergy against being called upon
to build and repair the English churches?
For himself he repeated, that he never
could allow it to be said, that churches
were built more for the benefit of the
clergy than of the public at large. Re-
ligion was the duty and the comfort as
well of the poorest peasant, as of the
highest order of clergy; and that which
was equally the duty and the comfort of
all ought to be equally paid for by all.
But the right hon. baronet would provide
places of religious worship for all, by im-
posing a heavy tax upon one branch of
the community; namely, the clergy. As
well might he urge that public officers
ought to build all the public offices, that
soldiers ought to build the barracks in
which they live, or that any other class
of persons ought to erect the establish-
ments in which they were engaged. If
the House should come to the determi-
nation of adopting the resolution of the
right lion. baronet, it would lower itself
in the eyes of the public. He should
resist the motion in whatever shape it
might be brought forward, as he never
would consent to burthen the clergy with
the erection and repair of all the churches
of the empire. To attempt to load them
in this way was most unjust in itself, and
contrary both to the letter and the spirit
of the law ; and in the case of Ireland, the
effect would be so to reduce the incomes
of the clergy, as to render them unable
to discharge their high and sacred func-
tions.
Mr. Spring Rice complained of the
mode of argument taken up by the oppo.
sers of the motion, and observed, that in
reference to what were called the usurpa-
tions of the oldertimes,no notice wastaken
of the usurpations by the clergy of those
divisions of the tithes which were appro-






55] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
priated to the building and repair of the
churches, and the entire maintenance of
the clergy.
Mr. Dantson said, that the proposition
of the right lion. baronet was equally op-
posed by law and by justice. He had
read over the statutes, and, though he
did not presume upon giving a competent
opinion, it appeared to him that they bore
no construction like that put upon them
by the right hon. baronet. It was never
the intention of the legislature to impose
frequent valuations of livings upon the
clergy. There had, in fact, been no
more than four valuations of livings from
the time of Henry 8th down to that
hour; and all those valuations were of
livings which had never been valued be-
fore. The commission in the reign of
Henry 8th related only to a small portion
of Ireland; that under Elizabeth included
merely livings not before valued; that in
the reign of James was made under simi-
lar circumstances; and that under Charles
was occasioned by certain livings having
previously escaped valuation. The com-
mission in the time of James 1st con-
tained positive directions not to touch
the livings which were valued before, and
notto go to the full valuation of anylivings.
There was no question but that the right
to the first-fruits was the settled posses-
sion of the Crown, and being then so
settled, it was equally plain from those
instruction, that the king only wished to
have the sums fixed which were to be
paid into the Exchequer, and that those
were to be the sums to be paid in from
that time for ever after. Moreover a
great portion of the livings at the
time of the valuations taken under
queen Elizabeth were under 61. value,
and those were excepted by law from
valuation. It would be a hard measure
of justice, indeed, because they had
considerably improved, to endeavour now
to lessen their productiveness. The mo-
tion was founded in injustice. But, if
it had justice on its side, it must be as
applicable to the property of the English
as of the Irish church. There was no-
thing in the question of the first-fruits of
one church which was not as applicable
to the first-fruits of the other. It would
not be possible, however, for any mem-
ber of that House to proceed in the same
manner against the property of the Eng-
lish church; and yet lie thought that, if
any distinction were to be allowed, it
would rather encourage interference with


First-Fruits in Ireland. [Su
the English than with the Irish church.
By the statute passed in the 26th of
Henry 8th, not only the first-fruits of
rectories, deaneries, bisloprics, were
granted to the king, but likewise the first-
fruits of all abbeys, monasteries, and hos-
pitals ; for the act for the destruction of
monasteries did not pass until two years
afterwards. It was well known that lands,
which were then held by ecclesiastical
bodies of the latter description, were now
in the hands of lay persons; so that the
measure, if adopted, might reach to
them. Should the resolutions pass, many
persons in Ireland, who had impropriated
lands, would be subject to have them
valued. Now, he was persuaded that the
House would never consent to such in-
justice. Before he sat down, he begged
to bear his testimony to the conduct of
the clergy of Ireland. No body of men
could have conducted themselves, on all
occasions, with more honour, more
liberality, and more Christian charity
towards all mankind. He had not heard
of any thing on this subject which had
laid the foundation for inquiry; and for
this reason, he was not prepared to give
the motion his support.
Mr. Lockhart said, he had expected the
right hon. baronet to make out a very
strong case, and was now prepared to ac-
knowledge, that, from the weight of argu-
ment on the other side, he felt convinced
that the proposition could not be adopted.
Why should they seek for a principle to
justify them in that which was on every
side called the usurpation of the pope ?
If the pope had usurped any portion of the
property of thechurch, like that of the first-
fruits, the Crown did right in resuming it;
but then it ought to be given back to the
church. It was upon this feeling that the
Crown seemed to have acted. Unques-
tionably, the rightful possession of that
property, after the resumption, was in the
Crown. Henry 8th had given up a part of
it to laymen, from whom it could not be
reclaimed; and the right of the Crown to
the remainder had been qualified by the
sovereigns who came after him, until it
had been settled on its present footing.
It would indeed, be taking a heavy stride
now to revive the claim of the Crown to
the utmost amountofvaluations tobe taken
in the present day. Reference had been
made by the hon. member for Limerick,
to what he called other usurpations by
the clergy upon the four-fold division of
the tithes. But then the law and the cir-







57] First-Fruits in Ireland.
cumstances of society had materially
altered. The poor were entitled to the
fourth of the tithes; and he was aware
that the statute of Richard 2nd sought to
secure the appropriation of the fourth
part to that object; but the law had long
since fallen into disuse. The poor were
maintained by the poor-rates; with the
payments of which the agricultural pro-
perty and the tithes were mainly charge-
able. But, if the law had not fallen into
disuse by this method, the claim of the
poor to the fourth must have been void ;
because the Reformation brought with it
to the clergy the right of marrying; and
that implied, ex necessitate rei, the duty
of providing for their families. Upon
the whole, therefore, lie could not think it
safe to entertain this proposition.
Mr. Hume said, that tie two honour-
able Secretaries had not argued this ques-
tion with their usual candour. The one
had contended that the motion was con-
sistent with neither law nor justice, and
the other had endeavoured to lead the
House away, by calling its attention to
the danger to which the resolutions ex-
posed every other species of property.
Now, he could remember when it was
asserted in that House, that every question
should stand by itself, and upon its own
peculiar merits; and that no other should
be decided by it, unless the circumstances
were precisely similar. Now, nothing
could be more unlike than the circumstan-
ces of the two churches of England and
Ireland. It was not for him to decide
whether Henry 8th was legally entitled
to act as he had done, and to appropriate
ecclesiastical property at the Reformation,
but certain it was, that the practice of the
country had confirmed him in the posses-
sion of it. He gave portions of it to lay-
men, whose representatives still retained
it; and other portions to the church,
which derived its title only from the donor.
The question, then, reduced itself to this
-Did any subsequent sovereign of this
country, queen Anne for instance, relin-
quish what she was entitled to in this re-
spect, as far as regarded Ireland, for cer-
tain purposes, or did she not ? Now, that
queen gave up her claim to first-fruits
and twentieths in Ireland, for the express
purpose that the money should be applied
to the erection and repair of churches.
He asked, then, whether it had been so
applied, or whether it had not? The
answer was, that to the extent to which
the collection had been made, the money


MARCH 21, 1826. [Wi
had been so applied; but the point in
dispute was, whether there existed a right
to re-value the livings, in order to ascer-
tain the true amount of the first-fruits ?-
The clerk of the first-fruits had authority
by his patent, according to the opinion of
respectable counsel, to value the livings at
different times ; and they had, in point of
fact, been valued at five orsix different times.
But then the right hon. Secretary for Ire-
land talked of the injustice of thus trench-
ing on ile church property ; but, if the
church had been provided with funds for
the building and repair of churches, and
the clergy instead of applying them to
that purpose had applied them to their
own use, it was perfectly consistent both
with law and justice to resume these funds,
and to apply them to the purposes for
which they were originally intended.
This was said to be an attack on the
property of the church. If it was, it was
a just attack: for if the money destined
for the building and repair of churches
was withheld and used for the benefit of
the clergy, it was strictly just so far to
attack church property as to turn a portion
of it from an improper to a proper pur-
pose. There was no danger to any other
kind of property from this proceeding. It
was said, that the same principle would
apply to church of England property. If
it did, then church of England property
ought to he dealt with accordingly. But,
to say that this would endanger his, or any
other gentleman's private property, was a
preposterous proposition. It was only a
proof that the right hon. Secretary had
no good argument when he resorted to
this method of endeavouring to create an
alarm for property, to which the prin-
ciple had no just application. His
speech was merely an attempt to pro-
tect the church property of Ireland, and
to continue and uphold the abuses to
which it was at present subject. It was
certainly true, and he was happy to have
it to say, that he believed, within the last
three or four years, the character of the
Irish church had been considerably im-
proved. Hewas happy to have itin his power
to bear testimony to this improvement.
But if it had improved, the public had
not to thank the clergy for it. It was
owing to the motions and discussions in
that House, and the public sensation ex-
cited in consequence; and that was the
only way of producing improvement where
the law could not be brought directly to
bear upon abuses. But a great deal more






59] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
must be done, before the church of Ire-
land would be on the footing on which
it ought to be placed. Then it was said,
that soldiers might as well be called upon
to maintain their barracks, or government
officers their houses of office, as the clergy
to maintain their respective churches. It
was not contended that the clergy were
bound to maintain the church. Nothing
more was asked, than that a certain fund,
designed for a special purpose, should be
made available for that purpose. If you
are obliged to tax the country, poor as
well as rich, for the rebuilding and repair
of churches, surely you ought to wait
until you have exhausted all those just
and appropriate resources. Did the right
ion. Secretary really mean to say that
there was any reasonable comparison be-
tween this case and that of soldiers with
their barracks, or that of officers of state
with their government houses? Was any
part of the pay of soldiers given them for
the purpose of building or repairing bar-
racks, or was any part of the salaries of
government officers given them for the
building and repair of government houses?
If so, the Irish Secretary ought to pay for
building and repairing his office ; the chan-
cellor of the Exchequer ought to pay for
building and repairing the Treasury ; and
the right hon. President of the Board
of Trade ought to pay for the new build-
ings now going on. He presumed they
did not pay; and for the very good reason,
that they received no allowance for that
purpose. The gentlemen opposite had
evinced a wise and liberal policy in cor-
recting many mistakes and abuses in other
cases; and lie hoped the time was not flr
distant when the Irish church would be
made to correct many of its abuses, and to
apply the funds in its possession to their
proper destination. The right hon. Se-
cretary had contended, that there was no
law to compel the valuation of the livings.
But he had in his hand the opinion of a
respectable counsellor, Mr. Allan, that by
the words of the patent, the patentee had
the right to re-value the livings at any
time; and that learned counsellor con-
cluded, that the present patentee was em-
powered to re-value all the livings whose
value had not been fixed by statute. But
then it was answered, that the opinions
of the Crown law-officers were opposed
to this, and that they had declared that
the patent was not under the great seal,
under the act. It was true, the Crown
lawyers had so declared; and it had been


First-Fruits in Ireland. [60
further stated, on the part of govern-
ment, that if the patentee persisted in
bringing the question before a court of
law, his patent, being held only during
pleasure, would be revoked. Thus the
patentee was deterred, by what might
be considered as a threat, from bringing
the question before a competent jurisdic-
tion. The patentee's conduct in the
transaction certainly did him high credit.
He could not say so much for the conduct
of the right hon. gentleman and his co-
secretary. It would have been much
better if they had acted upon the advice
of Mr. Allan; whd further stated, after
seeing the opinions against him, that the
Crown officers agreed with him that the
power of re-valuing was in the Crown;
and if so, there could not be a better op-
portunity than the present for exercising
that power; for he was certain that there
never was a case so clear and satisfac-
tory as that which had been laid before
the House that night, by the right hon. ba-
ronet. It was deeply to be regretted that
the same liberal line of policy which had
marked the proceedings of his majesty's
ministers on other occasions, was not
visible on the present. The thanks of the
House were due to the perseverance and
public spirit of the right hon. mover of
the question. The subject, however it
might be now disposed of, would sooner
or later be attended to by his majesty's
government, andhe had no doubt but that
success would ultimately crown his ex-
ertions.
Sir R. H. Inglis objected to the state-
ment of the right hon. mover, that the
church lands of Ireland amounted to
700,000 acres ; but admitting that amount
to be correct, the right hon. baronetmustbe
aware that the greater part of that land was
held under long leases, sometimes of fifty,
sixty, or a hundred years. His sentiments
on the present question had been so fully
anticipated by his right hon. friend the
secretary for Ireland, and so clearly and
eloquently stated by him, that he would
add nothing in support of those observa-
tions, but should content himself with
saying, that he entirely concurred in the
view which his right hon. friend had taken
of the subject.
Sir J. Newport said, in reply, that the
question came to this simple point-whe-
ther a certain revenue given by the Crown
to the church for a specific purpose, was
to be rendered available for the purpose
for which it was intended, or the people






61] Charing Cross Improvement Bill.


were to be taxed by annual rates to sup-
ply, not the deficiencies, but the place of
that fund The right hon. Secretary had
put himself completely out of court by
the steps which he had taken, in refusing
to allow the question to be brought to a
regular trial, and threatening the proper
officer with the loss of his patent, in case
he persisted in that course. The hon.
baronet who spoke last imagined that he
had forgotten that a great proportion of
the Irish livings had not been valued at
all. Why, he knew it perfectly well. He
knew that 1,535 livings had been valued,
and that of these alone a thousand had
not then contributed, as being under the
value of 51. But 944 parishes had never
been valued at all; and did the hon.
baronet mean to say that they ought
never to be valued? Primate Boulter
had called upon the church to contribute
to the purposes which he now had in view ;
but he had stated in his letter, that lie very
much doubted whether his brethren would
concur with him on the subject. They
did not concur with him ; and there the
matter dropped. The right hon. Secre-
tary professed his attachment to the
church. He could assure the right hon.
gentleman, that he was as warmly and as
faithfully attached to the established
church as he could be. The only di-
versity in their sentiments consisted in
their different modes of showing them.
He evinced his anxiety for the interests of
the church, by exerting himself to cor-
rect the abuses which had crept into its
management; while the right hon. gen-
tleman opposite endeavoured to show the
sincerity of his professions, by coun-
tenancing those who were guilty of such
abuses, and who perverted to purposes of
private emolument the funds appropriated
by the bounty of the Crown, to the objects
of religion. The lengths to which this
perversion of the royal bounty had been
carried were monstrous. Out of the mis-
management and neglect of their livings
by the clergy arose the necessity of uniting
parishes; and thus many who were en-
titledto receive the benefits of religion were
removed beyond the reach of the church.
The clergy in Ireland suffered their
churches to fall into decay, and then
called upon the body of the people (who,
be it observed, were of a different per-
suasion) to rebuild them. Thus was the
royal bounty perverted from the pur-
poses to which it was destined. He had
been taunted by the right hon. Secretary,


that the present was the fourth time he
had been called upon to answer him on
this subject. He believed the right hon.
gentleman somewhat overrated the reality;
but lie was not at all averse to have it
stated, that this was the fourth time he
had called for some satisfactory informa-
tion on this head; and he assured the right
hon. gentleman, that as long as he had a
seat in that House, he would continue to
bring the subject under the consideration
of the legislature. He would still en-
deavour to protect the public against the
usurpation of their rights and their pro-
perty. He had been long enough in that
House to know, that his perseverance, in
many instances, had led to the results
which he wished to accomplish; and that,
although he did not succeed in carrying
the measures on his own motion, the right
hon. and honourable gentlemen opposite,
who had been vehement in their reproba-
tion of them, afterwards took them up,
and brought them to perfection. He was
not, therefore, ashamed of his perseve-
rance in the present instance. It was for
those to be ashamed who did not do their
duty. He hoped that truth would still
prevail; and that those who now stigma-
tised his endeavours would ultimately
adopt them. He would renew his remon-
strances, until lie should succeed in con-
vincing the House, as he believed he had
already convinced the public, that his
proposition ought to be adopted.
The House divided: For the Resolu-
tion 21 ; Against it 48; Majority 27.
List of the Minority.
Abercromby, hon. J. Ord, W.
Calcraft, J. Palmer, C. F.
Fitzgerald, M. Philips, G.
Grattan, J. Robinson, sir G.
Gordon, R. Rice, T. S.
Griffith, J. W. Smith, J.
Hamilton, lord A. Sebright, sir J.
Itutchinson, hon. C. Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Iume, J. Whitmore, W.
Milton, vise.
Martin, J. TEILEr,
Marjoribanks, S. Newport, sir J.
The second resolution was negatived
without a division.

CHARINGCROSS IMPROVEMENT BILL.]
Mr. Arbuthnot, in rising to move for leave
to bring in a bill for making several Im-
provements in the neighbourhood of
Charing-cross and the Strand, said, that,
before he entered into any statements
connected with those improvements, he


MARnii 21, 1826c. [62






631 HOUSE OF COMMONS,


felt it necessary to state, that those which
he should propose would be carried into
effect by the same architect whose de-
signs in the formation of Regent-street
had received such deserved commenda-
tion from the public; he meant Mr. Nash.
It was almost impossible for him to give
the House a correct detail of the proposed
improvements, without maps or plans
being before them, and therefore he
hoped for their indulgence while he de-
tailed, as well as lie could, what was in-
tended to be done. In the first place, he
must state, that, should the House con-
sent to the project, it was intended to
purchase that tract of ground which joined
to the present King's-mews at Charing-
cross, and extended to St. Martin's-lane;
and also it would be necessary to have
power to purchase the whole of that tract
on the east side of St. Martin's-lane, which
was bounded on the north by Chandos-
street, on the south by the Strand, and
which terminated in the eastern point at
Castle-court, near to Bedford-street. The
effect of this alteration would be not
merely to embellish and adorn the me-
tropolis, but to create a more convenient
communication between the east and west
ends of the town. He should now en-
deavour to explain the mode in which it
was intended to carry the plan into exe-
cution. If permission should be granted
to purchase that tract of buildings between
St. Martin's-lane and the Mews, it was
contemplated, that a large splendid
quadrangle should be erected, the west
side of which would be formed by the
College of Physicians and the Union Club
house; the east side would correspond
with that already existing; namely, the
grand portico of St. Martin's church;
and on the northern side a new line of
buildings would be erected ; the effect of
which arrangement would be to throw
open to those in Pall Mall a full view of the
magnificent portico of time church. He
could certainly wish that this quadrangle
should contain a Gallery for our national
paintings and statues. If such a plan
were executed, the statues and paintings
would be much more easy of access than
at the Museum, whilst, at the same time,
they might remain under the guardianship
of the trustees of the British Museum.
It was also in contemplation that a Royal
Academy should be built in the centre of
the quadrangle; but it was the general
opinion that it would be preferable to
leave it an open space. He mentioned


this, as the point was yet undecided, and
would be left for the consideration of the
House. The south side of the quadrangle
would be open to Charing-cross, giving a
view of Parliament-street and Whitehall.
The extent of it would be 500 feet from
the statue at Charing-cross to the pre-
sent stables. Its extent on the other
sides would be made to correspond as
nearly as possible. The reason why it
was proposed to carry on the improvement
to Bedford-street was, that the Strand up
to that part might be widened from its
present width, 35 feet, to nearly 60 feet.
The narrow passage in this part between
Charing-cross and Bedford-street was a
source of great inconvenience to all per-
sons going from the west, and to the city;
and in this respect he had no doubt
that the new plan would meet with general
approbation. At present, all the stage
and mail coaches, coming from Piccadilly
to the east end of the city, and returning
from thence to the west, were obliged
to come down by Charing-cross, and pass
through this narrow gut, as he might call
the space between Charing-cress and
Bedford-street; so that, by the crowd of
vehicles of all descriptions, there was
sometimes a stoppage which often inter-
rupted for a considerable time the com-
munication between one end of the me-
tropolis and the other. Should the House
approve of his proposition, the whole of
this inconvenience would be avoided. Per-
sons going to the city from, and returning
to, the west end, would have access, not
only by the widened carriage way of this
part of the Strand, but also by new car-
riage ways running parallel. There would
be an additional carriage-way across the
upper part of the quadrangle into a street
on the south side of St. Martin's church,
which would run diagonally into the
Strand, towards the end of Villiers-street;
so that a great part of the crowd at pre-
sent entering the Strand by Charing-cross
would be avoided. But this would not be
all. The means would likewise exist of
forming another street from Leicester-
square, by Hemming's-row and Chandos-
street, which would fall into the Strand by
Bedford-street. This would be the least
wide of the three communications; but
still it would give a great additional con-
venience, and, by taking off part of the
throng of carriages that would otherwise
have access to the Strand only by Charing-
cross, would very much relieve that part
from the crowd which daily pressed along


Caring Cross Imp~rovement Bill.






65] Charing Cross Improvement Bill. MARCH 21, 1826. [66
it. Thus there would be three carriage another might never present itself of mak.
entrances from the western parts of the ing those desirable improvements. Look-
metropolis into the Strand. That from ing to the probable result of this plan, the
Leicester-square, by Hemming's-row and House, in order to form its judgment,
Chandos-street, falling in near Bedford- might be glad to learn what was the result,
street; that by the south-west side of as to expense, of the splendid undertaking
St. Martin's-church ; and that along the -the building of Regent-street. That, it
widened end of the Strand itself. These should be remembered, was undertaken
would not only produce a great benefit to in a time of war; and such as it now
the metropolis in the way of free com- was, he did not believe that it was regret-
munication from one end to the other, but ted by one man in the country. Taking
would also have the advantage of getting the expense of that, and the opening to
rid of a vast number of bad and unsightly the Regent's-park, in the purchase of
houses, which were at present crowded good-will of premises, and in the awards
together in the vicinity of St. Martin's- given by juries, the result was, that, while
church, which would add considerably to a great part of the Crown land was im-
the beautyof that part of themetropolis.- proved, and an interest created which did
He would now say a word as to the ex- not exist before, the interest on the whole
pense which would be incurred by these of the sum laid out produced within a
improvements; and no doubt it would be fraction of three per cent. He did not say
satisfactory to the House to learn, that, that the expense of the improvements now
unless the building of a Royal Academy proposed would be as great; but, for the
or National gallery in the site to which space to be acquired, they would be com-n
he had already alluded should be de- paratively greater; for, in the former case,
termined on (in which case it would be there was erected on the site of the houses
necessary to come to the House for a pulled down, a continuity of buildings
grant), he should not have to apply to the which were now productive; but a great
House for a shilling. He would not at part of the site of the houses now to be
that moment enter into the details of the removed would remain unoccupied, and
means by which it was intended to carry would of course produce no return for the
these plans into effect. It would be suf- sum laid out; but, making allowance for
ficient to state generally, that, by the ex- this unproductive space, he did expect
change of Crown lands in some instances, that an interest of 2S per cent would be
and the sale of them in others, the depart- returned on the money expended. This,
ment with which he was connected would considering the great advantage to be de-
be enabled to meet the greatest part of rived from the more open communication
the expense. It would, however, be ne- between the two quarters of the me-
cessary, should the House approve of his tropolis, and the splendor of forming
plan, that in the bill which he would in- such a magnificent quadrangle, would be
produce, power should be given to borrow a fair return. But the ornament of the
a sum of money on mortgage of a part of proposed quadrangle, would not be its
the new street; but, this it should be only advantage. The leaving such an
observed, would be only a continuation of open space in a neighbourhood so thickly
the powers of an actalready passedfor the surrounded with buildings would be a
erection of the buildings in Regent-street. great benefit, by contributing to the health
Looking at the whole of what he had de- of the inhabitants of the vicinity. He
tailed as one plan, he could not anticipate would now move, that the bill, if the
any objection to it, as a general measure. House consented to its introduction,
It was, he thought, highly desirable to should be read a first time that night, and
get rid of the unsightly appearance which a second time to-morrow; and that it
would be presented, by allowing some should be printed, and referred to a com-
of the houses in the neighbourhood of mittee up stairs, to examine the plan, and
Charing-cross to remain as theynowstood. report whether it could conveniently be
If the House should disapprove of car- carried into effect. The right hon. gentle-
rying the alterations to the extent that he man concluded by moving for leave to
had proposed, why then it would be ne- bring in a bill To extend to Charing-
cessary to have the intended quadrangle cross, and places adjacent, the powers of
on a much smaller scale. He thought, an act for making a more convenient com-
however, that such an opportunity as the munication between the east and west
present ought not to be lost; for such ends of the metropolis, and to enable the
VOL. XV. F








commissioners of land revenues to grant disagree with the hon. baronet in his ob-
leases of the site of Carlton Palace." servations respecting Exeter-change ; bt,
Sir M. W. Ridley said, he did not mean as that was the private property of lord
to oppose the motion; but merely rose to Exeter, difficulties would arise in effect-
suggest the propriety of improving that ing the alteration suggested; for whilst
part of the Strand called Exeter Change, the House were providing for public im-
which required improvement more than provements, they ought to be particularly
any other. Every person acquainted attentive to private property. He un-
with that building must have marked the derstood, that, as soon as the leases of the
great inconvenience it occasioned to the property about Exeter Change had run
trade of the metropolis, and he was sa- i out, it was the intention of lord Exeter
tisfied that no man could deny that it was to make very great improvements there;
a grievous nuisance. When such exten- and lie could assure the House, that if his
sive alterations were about to take place assistance should be at all required to-
in the very neighbourhood, he put it to wards the advancement of such improve-
the right hon. gentleman, whether he ment, he would gladly co-operate in so
could pass over the obstruction which laudable an undertaking. He could also
this building occasioned, and whether it assure the hon. baronet, that what had
would not be most desirable to introduce been observed by him respecting the Re-
such alteration in his intended bill as gent's-park had not escaped his notice.
would have the effect of including it in It was, however, a mistake to suppose
the purchases about to be made, for the that the annual rent which government
ornamentand advantage of the metropolis? received on account of the herbage of this
Such an alteration would, lie was con- park was only 1001. for, in point of fact,
vinced, meet the approbation of parlia- it amounted to 1,8001.; but, still this
ment and the public. While he was on would not at all operate as an inducement
this subject, he would call the attention of with them for excluding the public from
the right hon. gentleman to a letter which the full enjoyment of this park one mo-
had appeared in several morning papers, ment longer than the state of the park
signed, An old Inhabitant of Mary-la- itself absolutely required; but at present,
Bonne." Every one would acknowledge, although the pasturage was extremely
that all due precautions should be taken good and luxuriant, the surface of the soil
to preserve the trees in those plantations was not in a proper condition to be walked
which adorned the park at the northern upon; neither had the trees arrived at
extremity of the town. But still it ap- sufficient maturity to render it safe that
peared to him, that a reasonable care of the fences which protected them should
those plantations was by no means in- be thrown down. He hoped that these
compatible with the admission of the obstacles would at no distant period be
public to those enjoyments of pure air and removed, and that the public might then
exercise in which they had formerly been have a free and unrestricted access to all
indulged; and he hoped that those who parts of the park; for he felt as sensible
had the superintendence of the improve- as the hon. baronet himself could possibly
ments would take the subject into con- do, that it was the duty of those who
sideration, and adopt some means of lay- presided over matters of this nature, to
ing the park open to the public. Before prefer the public health and convenience
he sat down, he begged to observe, that to every other consideration. Before he
the style of building in Regent-street, sat down he would take the liberty of al-
which had been formed from the plans of luding to the very important improve-
that able architect who was to conduct ment which had recently been made in
the projected alterations at Charing-cross, Hyde-park; and which must necessarily
deserved his unqualified approbation, have afforded the public a most consider-
There mightbe some difference of opinion ableadditionalaccommodation ; lie did this
upon particular erections; but, taking it the more readily, because it had been
in one view aa the principal street of the granted at the express command of his
metropolis, he was convinced there were majesty. When he had waited upon his
few who would not confess, that it re- majesty to submit the plans of the new
elected high honour on the architect, and improvements, hi3 majesty had himself
afforded a satisfactory proof of his taste pointed out the necessity of widening the
and judgment. carriage-way, for the pleasure and con-
NIr. Arbuthnot said, that he did not venience of the public, and had suggested


67] HOUSE OF COMMONS,


Charing Cross Improvemenzft Bill..






69] Patent Rights.
those other alterations which had since
been carried into effect.
Mr. Hume did not object to any por-
tion of the plans of the right hon. gentle.
man; all lie would say was, that he houed
they would not require any portion of the
public money. He was satisfied that the
whole could be done by the sale of Crown
lands without any other assistance. In the
absence of the hon. member for Westmin-
ster, who meant to call the attention of the
House to the subject, he begged to protest
against the continuance of any barracks
in the centre of Westminster. Every
person in the neighbourhood considered
those barracks a downright nuisance.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

CIVIL CONTINGENCIES-DIPLOMATIC
SERVICES.] The report of the com-
mittee of Supply was brought up. On
the resolution, That 200,001. be granted
to his majesty to complete the sum ne-
cessary for defraying the charge of civil
contingencies for the year 1826,"
Mr. Hume said, he could not refrain
from entering his protest against charges
for diplomatic services. The expense
which we were at in this department
would appear immense, if contrasted with
the expense which other countries in.
curred in this particular. The embassy
at Paris, last year, cost the country no
less than 30,0001., a sum equal to the sa-
laries of the whole civil establishment in
America. Indeed, England was the most
expensive government on the face of the
earth, although, from our being so bur-
thened with debt already, we were so little
able to bear any superfluous expense.
Our expenditure in this department had
been increased to four times the sum it
amounted to in 1792. He should there-
fore move, that the following be added to
the resolution by way of amendment:-
" That it appears by a return (No. 285
of 1822) on the table of this House, that
the total charge for his majesty's diplo-
matic service and consuls abroad, for
the year 1792, including special missions,
outfit, and equipage extraordinary, and in-
cidental expenses, pensions to retired mi-
nisters and consuls, was 113,9891., and
that the charge for the same in the eight
years, 1818 to 1825, both inclusive, ex-
ceeded the sum of 2,500,0001.; being an
average of these years 313,0001. each
year.- Resolved, That, in the opinion of
this House, it is expedient, in order to
relieve the burthens and support the pub-


MARCH 22, 1826. [70
lic credit of the country, to lessen the pub-
lic expenditure by every practicable means
consistent with the safety and good faith
of government; but that so large an ex-
penditure for the diplomatic service of the
country, and in particular in the last year,
is at variance with that course, and de-
serves the censure of this House."
Mr. Canning wished to know whether
it was the hon. member's object to nega-
tive the resolution, or merely to record
his opinion that this expenditure was de-
serving of censure. If the latter, he con-
ceived the hon. member was proceeding
in a wholly informal manner.
The Speaker observed, that, from the
expressions of the hon. gentleman's
amendment, he conceived it was not pos-
sible for him now to propose it. They
were considering the report of a commit-
tee which had taken the resolution into
its consideration before, and the hon. gen-
tleman would see that they could not in-
troduce into the resolution adopted by
that committee, any matter which had
not then been submitted to its examina-
tion.
Mr. HIume said, that as there seemed to
be some irregularity in his amendment, he
would withdraw it.
The resolution was then agreed to.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 22.
PATENT RIGHTS PETITION OF C.
BRODERIP, FOR BETTER SECURITY OF.]
Lord Palmerston presented a petition
from Charles Broderip, esq. of the city of
Westminster, setting forth,
That the petitioner is the author of
various inventions and improvements re-
lative to the commercial and naval in-
terests of the empire, the result of much
study and expense, and from which he
has hitherto derived no benefit, in conse-
quence chiefly of the short duration of
the exclusive privilege granted by letters
patent, the limited number of persons who
are permitted to embark as partners in an
invention, and the publicity given to the
descriptions thereof; the petitioner begs
to state that his inventions are such as re-
quire a long period to mature and render
profitable, and require a greater capital
to bring into extensive operation, than
the above limited number of individuals
can be found to contribute; also, that the
previouspublicityofthe descriptions might
enable other persons to put his inventions
into effect in foreign countries before, or






71] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
as soon as, the petitioner could bring
them into operation in the British empire;
that the great expense of obtaining letters
patent, and the necessity of taking out
many patents for any invention which
combines several improvements, amount
almost to a prohibition of the pursuit of
any invention requiring long-continued
study, with expensive and laborious ex-
periment; that the French laws relative
to inventions offer considerable induce-
ment to their authors, in consequence of
the trifling expense of obtaining patents,
which amounts only to one-fifth part of
the expense in England, and also from
the greater security arising from the non-
publication of the descriptions which can
in no manner be communicated but by
the author, or with his consent; great
facility is also given in that country to
the establishment of companies for the
purpose of working such inventions; in
the United States of America the pro-
perty of inventors is also much more se-
cure than in England, and the petitioner
hopes that it will not be deemed irregular
or improper that he should refer to the
message of the president of the United
States to Congress on the opening of its
present session, in which it is recom-
mended to pass a law for the purpose of
giving still greater security and value to
inventions in those states, the enacting of'
which law, the petitioner submits, will be
the means of engaging many British au-
thors to give the benefit of their inventions
exclusively to the United States, if an
alteration is not at the same time made in
their favour by parliament, for, in conse-
quence of the publication of inventions
in this country, no such author will take
out a patent here which might by such
disclosure endanger his rights in America ;
the petitioner submits that an undue pre-
judice exists against patentees, from a
notion that they are monopolists, the only
legal provision in their favour having been
made upwards of two hundred years since,
in the act of king James the 1st against
monopolies, and by which the Crown is
enabled to grant patents for inventions,
but only for the limited term of fourteen
years ; at the period in question little or
no application had been made of science
to manufactures in this country, and the
inventions then in use were, for the most
part, imported from foreign countries,
where, having been brought to consider-
able perfection, they required only capital
to render them immediately available and


Patent Rights- [72
profitable in this country, and the know-
ledge thereof was common to all British
subjects, who, by travel or communica-
tion with foreigners, became possessed of
it, -ithout the necessity of study, inven-
tion, loss of time, or expense; when a
few individuals were thus allowed the ex-
clusive privilege of manufacturing such
inventions, they might be considered as
monopolists, although such monopolies
might have been useful for a time; but the
petitioner humblysubmits,that the first au-
thors of inventions or discoveries can in no
case be considered as monopolists, inas-
much as their inventions would not have
been discovered but for the peculiar talent
and study of such authors, and would even
then remain unknown, if not communi-
cated by them to the public; the peti-
tioner humbly submits, that no statute
law protects inventors in the British em-
pire, as it is entirely in the pleasure of
the Crown to grant even the limited pro-
tection of a patent; while, on the con.
trary, in other countries, it is imperative
on their governments so to do; but that
ample security and protection is given in
this country to every other kind of pro-
perty, and particularly to that of literary
authors and artists, by various acts of
parliament passed in the course of the
last one hundred and twenty years; also,
that it is only within a century that any
great application of scientific knowledge
has been applied to commerce and ma-
nufactures, and that to some of those
inventions this country is avowedly in-
debted for its great wealth and extensive
commerce; that inventions of magnitude,
such as Mr. Watt's steam-engine, the
cotton machinery of Arkwright, and
others, and Harrison's time-keeper, have
never been brought to profitable use but
after several years of labour, study, and
expense, and not even then until the
patents which had been granted were
about to expire, thus leaving the authors
of such inventions without remuneration
or reward; such, in particular, would
have been the case with the three dis-
tinguished inventors above named, had
not the two first become themselves the
manufacturers of their own inventions,
and the last individual obtained a parlia-
mentary reward; that the petitioner also
submits that no invention of magnitude
has ever been effected by persons in the
trade or profession to which such inven-
tion applies, but always by those of a
different profession or occupation; that






73] Petition of C. Broderip, .Sc.
such inventions require, in general, ex-
tensive and various attainments, together
with great study and leisure to bring to
perfection, circumstances seldom com-
patible with the employment, education,
and habits of practical men; those who
possess the requisite qualifications can
only be induced to devote themselves to
such pursuits by the hope of deriving
therefrom those honours and benefits
which are attainable in the liberal profes-
sions, neither will capitalists furnish the
requisite funds for carrying inventions
into effect, but with the prospect of gains
adequate to the risk; the petitioner
humbly submits that scientific authors
are not less entitled to consideration and
reward than those of literature or the
arts, and that their claims are often
greater, inasmuch as considerable expense,
and even many dangers, are frequently
incurred, which the latter pursuits do not
require; that the privileges enjoyed by
literary authors and artists are princi-
pally, 1st, the entire property for twenty-
eight years, and for life; 2nd, the right
to register their works without material
expense; 3rd, the division of such pro-
perty among an unlimited number of
partners; the petitioner therefore humbly
prays, that the House will be pleased to
take this subject into consideration, and
to pass such law or laws as will give to
him, in common with other authors of
inventions and discoveries, the same
rights and security as are now enjoyed
by literary authors and artists, or such
odier relief as to the House shall seem
naeet."
The noble lord said, that he thought
the subject was one which was fairly
entitled to the consideration of the House,
and hoped that his learned friend, the
attorney-general, would adopt the views
of the petitioner, and afford some further
advantage to the meritorious class of
persons to whose interests the petition
related.
The Attorney-General allowed, that it
was of great importance that any defects
in the law relating to patent rights should
be remedied, and that it was the duty of
the House, as far as was consistent with
policy and sound reason, to afford every
protection and facility of operation to
those who devoted their time, their for-
tune, and their talents, to improvements
which were likely to become useful to
their country, and beneficial to mankind.
He did not, however, agree that all the


MARCH 22, 1826. (74
complaints of the petitioner, in the pre-
sent instance, could be borne out by the
facts, or that patentees laboured under
any peculiar disadvantages, as compared
with the possessor of copy-rights. One
ground of complaint, that relating to the
provision against more than six persons
being the holders of a patent, had arisen
out of the provisions of the 6th Geo. 1.,
called the Bubble act, and might be re-
moved immediately. The second ground
of complaint-that patentees had not a
sufficient protection or reward from the
present term of fourteen years, to which
the exclusive right extended; that they
were not in so good a situation as the
holders of copy-rights; and that other
countries, particularly France, had adopt-
ed a better and more equitable system
with regard to patentees-seemed to him
not supported by the real state of the
facts. He had looked into the state of
the law with regard to patents in France,
and found that patents were granted for
five, ten, but never longer than for fif-
teen years. Now, as the patentee in this
country held his exclusive right for four-
teen years, it could not be said that there
was any great difference upon that point.
He could, however, very well understand
that there were particular cases in which
the term of fourteen years might be found
insufficient; such as inventions in which
the machinery to be employed was so
complicated, the capital required to bring
it to perfection so extensive and so much
beyond the ordinary calculations of cost,
that the time afforded by law might be
found scarcely sufficient to bring the
work to any kind of perfection; leaving
out of the question all views to an ade-
quate remuneration. He admitted that
it might be a matter of right and justice
to extend the time usually allowed for the
protection of patentees in that situation;
and he believed that in several instances,
parties had actually applied to the House,
and obtained by bill such an extension of
their exclusive right, as was deemed ne-
cessary to afford them that time for re-
muneration to which the ordinary state
of the law was considered inadequate.
Now, he preferred that parties should be
still left to make these applications in
extraordinary cases, and that it should
be left to the discretion of the Crown
and the legislature, to determine how far
they were entitled to any unusual pro-
tection. Upon the next point, the ex-
pense of obtaining a patent, lie allowed






73] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
that it was matter of proper consideration
how far all unnecessary expenses, con-
nected with new inventions, should be so
reduced as to form no impediment to the
obtaining that reward which they merit-
ed; but it was a mistake to suppose that
the expense attendant upon taking out
a patent was so much more in this coun-
try than in others. In France it was
about 701., and here it was about 1001.;
so that the difference could not be con-
sidered as producing any very injurious
effect. The petitioner complained that
copy-rights were in a better condition
than patents. In copy-rights, it should
be recollected, that the protection was
granted to the individual work, and not
to the ideas, inventions, or principles
contained in it; but in patents there was
a protection for several years, during
which they were not called upon to give
such a particular description of their in-
vention, as would enable other persons
to avail themselves of it for the purpose
of imitation. But it was totally different
with respect to copy-rights, where any
man might pirate the whole or part of a
work the very day after it issued from tlhe
press, and that, too, with very little diffi-
culty or danger of detection ; whereas, if
he violated the substance of a patent in
any particular, he would be liable to an
immediate prosecution. The assertion,
therefore, that patentees were not placed
on as favourable grounds as authors,
seemed to be totally unfounded. He did
not, however, mean to say that every
protection which might be necessary,
ought not to be afforded to works of
complicated labour, expensive machinery,
or extraordinary outlay of capital; and
he agreed with the noble lord, that the
subject was of the greatest importance,
and deserved the most earnest considera-
tion of the House.
Mr. Maberly, while he admitted in its
fullest extent the importance of the sub-
ject, could not agree that the protection
ought to be held inviolable in every in-
stance to the extent which the patentees
considered likely to remunerate them.
On the contrary, he believed that, in
many cases, patents had a most pernicious
effect upon the trade and enterprise of
the country, and that improvement had
been cramped or wholly stayed by the
consequences of their exclusive and inviol-
able privileges being granted for so long
a period. If the cases were submitted to a
committee above stairs, he was convinced


Welch Mining Company Bill. [76
he should be able to show that the time of
the duration of some patents was longer
than was necessary for any beneficial pur-
pose.
Ordered to lie on the table.

WELCH MINING COMPANY BILL.]
Mr. Peter Moore brought up the report
of the committee upon this bill. On
moving, that the amendments be now
read,
Mr. Littleton said, he had a few obser-
vations to offer upon this bill. It purposed,
as;he perceived, to enable the Welch Iron
and Coal Company, to sue and be sued in
the name of their Secretary. Now, he
thought the House should recollect, that
if they gave this bill their consent, they
at the same time granted a kind of parlia-
mentary sanction and authority to the
purposes for which the company had been
formed, and to the manner in which they
proposed to carry their intentions into
execution. Now, as he did not conceive
that the House meant to give any such
sanction or approbation to the companies
which had been applying in this manner
for the powers of an act of parliament, he
thought the present a very fit oppor-
tunity to check such applications in
future. He drew a very great distinction
between companies formed to do what
nothing but great companies could do
-such as working the mines containing
precious minerals in other countries, and
various other undertakings, which required
the hazard of immense capital, without
the fear of great individual loss-and
those companies which were created for
undertakings of a mere ordinary descrip-
tion, and which were likely to prove
ruinously injurious by competition with
meritorious individuals, whose properties
were invested in those branches of trade
to which they proposed to apply their
joint-stock capital and powers. Some of
his constituents fearing such consequences
from this company, and feeling they could
prove it was not likely to be productive of
any of the advantages, either to particular
districts, or to the country at large, which
it promised, had incurred a very serious
expense last session in opposing the bill
in the committee, and he, finding that the
lion. member who was endeavouring to
carry it through the House this session,
and who had chiefly interested himself
in its success, was never, on any occasion,
present at that committee, and that there
was no probability of the bill being






77] Welch Mining Company Bill.
brought in in that session, came down to
the House and moved, "That the order
for the committee be discharged," and it
was discharged accordingly. Seeing no
better reasons for the bill this year than
he had been able to discover last year, he
would now move, That instead of the
amendments being read now, they should
be read upon that day six months."
Mr. Peter Moore, after explaining the
reason for the postponement of the bill,
and his absence from the committee, ob-
served that he hoped to be able so to
convince the hon. member for Stafford-
shire of the propriety and importance of
the bill, as to induce him to withdraw his
opposition to it. The company had pur-
chased mines at a cost of 100,0001.; they
had expended 100,0001. more in machi-
nery and preparations for working them ;
and they would probably lay out 2 or
300,0001. more in the progress of their
operations. They had incurred debts,
and they had debtors ; and it was for the
purpose of legalising their actions, so as
to protect the property they had invested
already, as well as to secure the public in
all their future contracts, that they now
applied for leave to sue and to be sued.
In the present state of the law, no man
could recover any sum, however small,
from the company, without filing a bill in
Chancery, containing the names of all the
directors, officers, and proprietors; and if
any one of them should happen to die
before a decision was pronounced, the
whole of the proceedings must be com-
menced anew, with the same formalities.
The bill, therefore, was not more a se-
curity to the proprietors than an accommo-
dation to the public; and as there had
not been a more respectable body of men
associated together for half a century, he
trusted the hon. member would see the
propriety of withdrawing his opposition.
Colonel Wood hoped, that his hon.
friend would not be induced to relax in
his opposition to the bill. Every body
who knew the mining counties of Wales,
knew that this company was not at all
necessary. Instead of there not being
enough, there was too much iron there,
and the great evil of this bill would be,
that it would increase the competition to
a mischievous extent.
Colonel Davies said, that the reasons
given by the two hon, members for their
opposition was very extraordinary. They
alleged no public grounds. They did
not say that it was likely to prove


MAIAncr 29, 1826. (78
delusive, but they only iileged that it
would be opposed to the interests of the
iron-masters with whor they were con-
nected, in that part of le country where
the bill would be carriers into operation.
He could not understand rhy, if such a
company were to exist, heir creditors
was to be deprived of the p wer which it
was now proposed to give th em in all legal
proceedings; since it was lear that if
they had not that power, thej would be
without any adequate remedy.
Mr. Stuart Iortley said, his objection
to the bill was, that it gave the sa action of
parliament to a company only for the
purpose of enabling them to co me into
the market upon better terms th' n other
persons. Every allegation in the preamble
of the bill was false. It alleged, that the
prosperity of Wales had been solely owing
to mining companies of this sort,; which
he denied; and he would refuse, therefore,
to put them upon a better footing than
other individuals.
Mr. Calcraft said, that the object of
the bill was to raise the price of the
company's shares in the market, and not
to benefit Wales, or the iron trade. He
had always stood up for individuals em-
barked in trade, against these overwhelm-
ing efforts of capital, and he would do so
on this occasion. The object of the bill
was, he repeated to give additional value
to the shares, that they might become
objects of gambling speculation.
Mr. Baring was afraid that the House
was inclined to proceed too hastily on the
subject. Last year they passed all bills re-
lating to companies of the most trumpery
description, and now they seemed indis-
posed to pass any which was at all con-
nected with a company. It became the
House to be more consistent with their
legislation. They ought to decide upon
a general principle, and not with reference
to the merits of particular companies. It
was true that the sanction of parliament
was, in some instances, sought for the
purpose of giving facility to the circula-
tion of shares, and of catching the un-
wary ; but it should be understood, that
although parliament should pass a bill to
facilitate the operations of the company,
and to free it from the inconveniences to
which it might be otherwise legally sub-
jected, it by no means pledged itself to
an approval of the enterprise in favour of
which the bill was required.
Lord Palmerston concurred in the opi-
nion, that the passing of the bill in par-






79] Ic 'USE OF COMMONS,
liament by no means gave a sanction to
the objects whi h the bill proposed to
carry into effect. It was only intended
by parliament to remedy tle imperfec-
tions of the lawl which would otherwise
subject the par ners of those companies
to great dela and difficulties. A dif-
ference should be made between compa-
nies which w ere not proceeded in, and
which deser' ed to be denominated wild
speculation' and those which had an ac-
tual existed nce, and on which the shares
were eith er paid, or likely to be paid up.
The C chancellor of the Exchequer said,
that he new nothing of the particular
company: the bill in favour of which was
now bef re the House. Whether it would
be beneficial or not to the principality of
Wales, jhe would not say; but he thought
it woul<(l have been well, if the parties, be-
fore t'iey applied to parliament, had
availed themselves of a bill which passed
toward the close of the last session. He
alluded to an act empowering the king in
council to grant limited charters. An
opportunity would have then presented
itself of discussing the grounds on which
this company sought the relief required
by this bill. The House had first a right
to inquire if the allegations of the parties
requiring this relief were true; and, se-
condly, if true, why they had not first
adopted the easy course of applying for
the limited charter, which, by the act of
last session, the Crown had the power to
grant?
Lord A. Hamilton said, that joint-stock
companies came to that House to obtain
bills of the nature of that before the
House, in order to gain a character out
of doors, and to enable them to sell their
shares to advantage. The House ought
to proceed with extreme caution on the
subject, after the dishonest practices
which had been committed by many of
the companies who obtained charters last
year.
Mr. Huskisson said, he was not
aware that any notorious bubble compa-
nies had obtained sanction from that
House. The number of applications made
last year for acts of parliament, on the
part of joint-stock companies, first called
the attention of the House to the subject,
and they almost came to a resolution not to
entertain, as a matter of course, an appli-
cation from any number of persons as-
sociated in partnership for permission to
sue and be sued through their secretary.
Towards the close of last year, parliament


Welch Mining Company Bill. [8
made an alteration in the act of Geo. 1st,
the effect of which was to enable the
Crown to grant limited charters to joint-
stock companies. When that legislative
measure was adopted, the fever of specu-
lation had abated, but was not altogether
subsided. A great number of applica-
tions were made to the king in council
for charters. Whilst those applications
were under consideration, many of them
were withdrawn, and he believed that the
parties who had withdrawn them, were
now very glad that they had not been put
to the expense of procuring a charter.
The company to which the present bill
referred was instituted, he understood, for
the purpose of working mines and mine-
rals in Wales. One of the applications
made to the privy council for a charter was
by a company for working mines and
minerals in Scotland, and the application
was backed by the recommendation of the
first people in Scotland. He was one of
those who did not think it proper to ad-
vise the Crown to grant any privilege to
a company which, by the general descrip-
tion of their object, might work any thing
from a slate-quarry to a gold mine, if they
could find any. The application of the
Scotch company was therefore rejected.
In acceding to such applications, it was
necessary to exercise great circumspec-
tion, as he remembered last year the ef-
fect of sanctioning the formation of so
many companies to work mines, was to
raise the demand for wages, and to en-
courage combinations among the work-
men throughout Staffordshire, and the
other mining districts. The House should
therefore be slow and jealous in giving
countenance to these schemes; and he
could not forbear from thinking, that this
application would be more likely to be
fairly entertained, and an impartial de-
cision formed upon it, by hearing council
before the privy council, than by having
the preamble of the bill read in that House.
He would avail himself of that opportunity
of stating his anxiety, that the law of part-
nerships, in which applications of this
kind were mainly concerned, and which
was in many instances the ground of
making them, should undergo some ma-
terial alteration. The law upon this sub-
ject was extremely inconvenient and de-
fective; and he should be most happy to
see the alteration and improvement of it
undertaken by some person more compe-
tent than himself to such a task. What
could be more inconvenient than, in pro-






Education of the Poor of Ireland.


ceeding against a company, if any mem-
ber of the partnership were absent, the
proceeding must be staid until a writ of
outlawry was executed against the absent
person, and the execution of it sometimes
occupied a twelvemonth. Whilst this
writ was executing, another member of
the partnership might be absent, and it
would be necessary to adopt a similar
legal course respecting him. Then it was
necessary that the names of all the part-
ners should be entered in the proceedings;
and if the christian name of any of the
parties was wrongly inserted, or he was
otherwise improperly described, a plea of
abatement was entered up, and the plain-
tiff must abide the issue of that plea, be-
fore he could take any further step. If
the issue were against him, he would
be obliged to bear all the foregoing ex-
penses, to which, in prosecuting his suit,
he had been liable, and to begin de novo.
Many other inconveniences attended the
present law, which he would be most
happy to see remedied. Besides, great
difficulty often presented itself in ascer-
taining who were all the partners, as this
could only be ascertained from the part-
ners themselves, who were also de-
fendants, and who could not therefore
give testimony in the case. Whether this
could be remedied by having a registry of
the number of partnerships, or whether in
actions of this kind it would not suffice
to have an action brought against a mem-
ber of a partnership, and oblige the other
members to abide the result, he was not
at that moment prepared to say; but the
interests of commerce and manufactures,
and a due protection of the interests of
the public, materially required an amend-
ment of the law of partnerships.
The amendment was agreed to, and the
further consideration of the report put off
for six months.

EDUCATION OF THE POOR OF IRE.-
LAND.] The House resolved itself into
a Committee of Supply. On the resolu-
tion, That 25,0001. be granted to defray
the expense of the Society for promoting
the Education of the Poor of Ireland for
the year 1826,"
Mr. Hume said, that the society for
which the present vote was claimed was
totally unworthy of the attention of the
House, for it had made statements re-
lative to its services which were altogether
false. He must observe, moreover, that
the rich bishops and wealthy clergy of
VOL. XV.


the establishment of Ireland had contri-
buted to this society only the paltry sums
of 4001. and 2001. But the society had
represented, that they educated 102,000
pupils, whereas it turned out that they
educated only 52,0001. What confidence
could be placed in the bishops and clergy
who belonged to this society, when they
could make such false returns? When
the pupils were more numerous, the
House had voted only 22,0001. On what
pretence could they be now called upon
to increase the vote by 3,0001. ? The so-
ciety had stated the number of their
schools, and of their scholars, and it would
be found that, in all the four districts of
Ireland, they had fixed upon a round
average of seventy pupils to each school.
When the public money was voted on the
basis of the number of these scholars,
such a system of taking the averages was
most scandalous. But the society had
charged at the rate of 4001. a year for the
salary of their registrar and his assistant,
and 1201. per annum for the salary of a
corresponding clerk, and there were
charges for twelve additional clerks,
making in all 1,1741'. There was likewise
a charge of 2,3501. for the travelling ex-
penses of ten inspectors. What would
they think of no less than 9,4001. being
charged for gratuities to teachers; they
being also paid their regular salaries ? A
committee was now sitting on the subject,
and he should therefore move that 22,0001.
should be substituted for the proposed
vote of 25,0001.
Lord Milton said, that his hon. friend
might have gone much further than stating
that the number of scholars in the four
districts averaged at the rate of seventy for
each school; for he would find that in every
county in Ireland the comparison between
the number of scholars and schools would
produce precisely the same result. And
yet, upon such a statement was the com-
mittee called upon to vote away the public
money. Unless these returns of the so-
ciety could be explained, he should con-
sider them utterly disgraceful to those
who published them.
Mr. Butterworth said, that the Kildare-
street schools had done more good for
Ireland than the hon. member was likely
to do in twenty years, should his life be
spared so long. He could not readily
explain how the returns had been made
out to tally with a particular number of
scholars. Perhaps some general average
had been taken. At any rate, he was
G


MARCH 22, 1826. [82






S3] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
ready to repeat what he had said on a
former evening, that it was not possible
to conceive that so respectable a body
would lend themselves to any fabrications,
or that they would be parties to telling
stories. They were men of the highest
character; not clergypien of the church of
England only, but of olier Christian per-
suasions. There were several Quakers in
it; there was a physician, Dr. Burroughs,
a man of unimpeachable character and emi-
nence in his profession ; anld Mr. Jackson,
a respectable barrister, was secretary.
Surely he might believe in the honour
and integrity of these persons, at least as
readily as he could trust to the repre-
sentations of the hon. gentleman. Let
tle hon. member, however, put his alle-
gations in black and white, and send them
to Dublin, and no doubt they would be
refuted. As to any sudden diminution of
the numbers, that was readily accounted
for by those who knew the state of the
country. There were continual alterca-
tions arising between the Roman Catholic
clergy and the managers of the schools,
as to the propriety of using the bible as a
school-book. A most respectable friend
of his in Ireland had supported several
schools for the education of the children
of the Roman Catholic poor at his own
expense. A disagreement took place
upon the ordinary subject, and, throi;gh
the influence of the Catholic priests, there
were 500 children wilhdravn from them
in one week. It was quite possible that
50,000 children might be withdrawn from
the Kildare-street schools almost all at
one time; so great was Roman Catholic
influence.
Mr. Goulburn said, he wished to know
whence the hon. member for Aberdeen
derived his calculation relative to the
average of seventy scholars.
Mr. Huine said, he had taken it fiom
the report of the society itself, for 1824.
Mr. Goulburn said, lie could not answer
the statement, as he had not seen the
document; but'he was surprised that the
ion. member should animadvert upon the
conduct of the clergy and prelates, when
lie ought to have seen from the report,
that not one of that profession had any-
thing to do with the management of the
society. The salary of the secretary was
not 4001., as the ion. member had stated,
but 1841. per annum.
Mr. Bright said, that from the suspi-
cious circumstances connected with the
proceedings of the Kildare-street Society,


Education ofthe Poor of reland. [84
he wished the vote should stand over un-
til some gentleman connected with Ire-
land had explained those circumstances
to the satisfaction of the House.
Mr. 1rankland Lewis expressed his re-
gret that the committee of inquiry had
not been able to lay their additional re-
nort before the House at an earlier period,
It was however in preparation, and would
shortly be produced, and the House would
find, that it was a work of no small labour.
The hou. member, adverting to what had
been said as to the number of scholars,
observed, that it was difficult to ascertain
the number on the rolls, for three months
together. The commiiitee had taken the
number at 61,000 ; and when it was stated
at 70,000, it was not, perhaps, too high.
When the parties more immediately con-
cerned made their report amount to
100,000 children, they did it not with a
view to deceive; for they candidly admit-
ted that they had taken into account
schools not at present in operation, but
which were likely to be so hi a short time.
Although it might be wrong to make such
a return, he begged to bear testimony to
the high respectability of the managers of
the Kildare-street Society. The honour
and integrity of those gentlemen had
been most unfairly attacked, and it was
but justice to vindicate their characters
from the stigma attempted to be fixed
upon them.
Mr. Hume d(id not wish to cast anv
reflection on those gentlemen individually;
but, in their collective capacity, they had
certainly committed errors. How were
those errors attempted to be reconciled ?
According to the report of the society,
the number of children educated by them
was 100,000, while, in point of fact, it was
little more than half that amount. The
report of the managers was,, therefore, at
variance with truth. It was in fact an
unfounded statement. With respect to
the share which the Roman Catholics had
in the management of the society, it ap-
peared that there had been only two gentle-
men of that persuasion who were connected
with it, one of whom was since dead.
Was it therefore to be expected that the
Roman Catholic population of Ireland
would suffer their children to attend those
schools, the managers of which were,
with one exception, Protestants? An
alteration in the system was loudly called
for, and he hoped it would take place at
no distant day.






85] Public Charities in Ireland.
NATIONAL PICTURE GALLERY.] The
Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, that
9,0001. be granted to his majesty for the
purchase of Pictures for the National
Gallery for the year 1826." In so doing
he wished to explain to the House the
circumstances under which the purchase
had been effected. Having heard that
three paintings of some of the most re-
nowned of the old masters were on sale,
and wishing to add Ibem to the national
collection, his majesty's government were
fortunate enough in having agreed for
their purchase; and, when the House was
aware of their value he was sure there
could be but one opinion on the sub-
ject. One of the pictures was by Poussin,
another by Carracci, and the third was the
production of that celebrated master,
Titian. The three paintings were admi-
rable specimens of their respective mas-
ters. The picture by Carracci was admit-
ted to be one of the very best of that great
master. It was a singularly beautiful
painting, both with respect to its design
and the exquisite felicity of its colouring.
The picture by Titian had been some
time in this country. Its subject was Bac-
chus and Ariadne, and it was confessedly
the finest specimen of that great master.
It was not a large picture, but its beauty
was unequalled. He was quite certain
that no person would grudge the sum of
9,0001. which had been given for these
pictures. Artists and persons of the first
taste and judgment had concurred in
praising their beauty. The late Mr.
Angerstein had offered 5,0001. for the
Titian alone, so that the three pictures
could not be considered dear at the price
which they cost the country. They were
now in the National Gallery, which was
open to the inspection of the public.
The resolution was agreed to.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 23.
LARCENY BILL.] Mr. Secretary Peel
brought in his bill for consolidating and
amending the Laws in England relative
to Larceny, and certain other offences,
affecting property." lie said, he was so
desirous that this bill should receive the
most deliberate investigation, that he
hoped he should be permitted to have it
read the first and second time, and to go
through the committee, where the blanks
which fixed the penalty to the different
offences could be filled up. The bill


MARCH 23, 1S26. [S6i
would then be placed before the House in
a more perfect state, and gentlemen could
come to the discussion, with a complete
knowledge of all its provisions; and lie
should hb perfectly prepared to give every
opportunity for the discussion of the
principle of the measure, if any objection
were raised against it.
The bill was teen read a first and
second time, and committed.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE EILL.] Mr. Secre-
tary Peel next brought in his bill "for im-
proving the administration of Criminal
Justice in England," and requested he
might be allowed to take the same course
wilt this as he had done with the pre-
ceding measure. This bill differed only
in one respect from the statement which
lie had made when he obtained leave to
bring it in, and lihat alteration was made
on the suggestion of one of the highest
judicial authorities this country had ever
produced-an authority whose opinions
were reverenced in every part of the world
where a love of justice and equity pre-
vailed-he alluded to lord Stowell, the
venerable judge of the Admiralty Court.
That noble lord proposed to extend the
principle of the bill, so fir as it related to
prosecutions for misdemeanor at the
quarter sessions, to offences tried in the
Admiralty Court. At present, when per-
sons were tried for offences committed on
the high seas, even of the most atrocious
character, the court had no power by law
to award any indemnification to the per-
sons supporting the prosecution; and the
object of the alteration was, to give to
the court of Admiralty a discretionary
power of indemnifying individuals who
came forward as prosecutors. On the
common principle of justice it was only
fair that the expense should be borne by
the public.
The bill was then read a first and se-
cond time, and committed.

PuBLIc CHARITIES IN IRELAND.]
The order of lhe day for receiving the
Report of the Committee of Supply was
read. On the question, that the report
be now brought up,"
Mr. Humie said, he had not heard from
his majesty's ministers whether they in-
tended to make any alteration in the esti-
mates for charitable purposes in Ireland.
He would, therefore, avail himself of the
present opportunity of placing on record
his opinion of the situation in which the






69] Patent Rights.
those other alterations which had since
been carried into effect.
Mr. Hume did not object to any por-
tion of the plans of the right hon. gentle.
man; all lie would say was, that he houed
they would not require any portion of the
public money. He was satisfied that the
whole could be done by the sale of Crown
lands without any other assistance. In the
absence of the hon. member for Westmin-
ster, who meant to call the attention of the
House to the subject, he begged to protest
against the continuance of any barracks
in the centre of Westminster. Every
person in the neighbourhood considered
those barracks a downright nuisance.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

CIVIL CONTINGENCIES-DIPLOMATIC
SERVICES.] The report of the com-
mittee of Supply was brought up. On
the resolution, That 200,001. be granted
to his majesty to complete the sum ne-
cessary for defraying the charge of civil
contingencies for the year 1826,"
Mr. Hume said, he could not refrain
from entering his protest against charges
for diplomatic services. The expense
which we were at in this department
would appear immense, if contrasted with
the expense which other countries in.
curred in this particular. The embassy
at Paris, last year, cost the country no
less than 30,0001., a sum equal to the sa-
laries of the whole civil establishment in
America. Indeed, England was the most
expensive government on the face of the
earth, although, from our being so bur-
thened with debt already, we were so little
able to bear any superfluous expense.
Our expenditure in this department had
been increased to four times the sum it
amounted to in 1792. He should there-
fore move, that the following be added to
the resolution by way of amendment:-
" That it appears by a return (No. 285
of 1822) on the table of this House, that
the total charge for his majesty's diplo-
matic service and consuls abroad, for
the year 1792, including special missions,
outfit, and equipage extraordinary, and in-
cidental expenses, pensions to retired mi-
nisters and consuls, was 113,9891., and
that the charge for the same in the eight
years, 1818 to 1825, both inclusive, ex-
ceeded the sum of 2,500,0001.; being an
average of these years 313,0001. each
year.- Resolved, That, in the opinion of
this House, it is expedient, in order to
relieve the burthens and support the pub-


MARCH 22, 1826. [70
lic credit of the country, to lessen the pub-
lic expenditure by every practicable means
consistent with the safety and good faith
of government; but that so large an ex-
penditure for the diplomatic service of the
country, and in particular in the last year,
is at variance with that course, and de-
serves the censure of this House."
Mr. Canning wished to know whether
it was the hon. member's object to nega-
tive the resolution, or merely to record
his opinion that this expenditure was de-
serving of censure. If the latter, he con-
ceived the hon. member was proceeding
in a wholly informal manner.
The Speaker observed, that, from the
expressions of the hon. gentleman's
amendment, he conceived it was not pos-
sible for him now to propose it. They
were considering the report of a commit-
tee which had taken the resolution into
its consideration before, and the hon. gen-
tleman would see that they could not in-
troduce into the resolution adopted by
that committee, any matter which had
not then been submitted to its examina-
tion.
Mr. HIume said, that as there seemed to
be some irregularity in his amendment, he
would withdraw it.
The resolution was then agreed to.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 22.
PATENT RIGHTS PETITION OF C.
BRODERIP, FOR BETTER SECURITY OF.]
Lord Palmerston presented a petition
from Charles Broderip, esq. of the city of
Westminster, setting forth,
That the petitioner is the author of
various inventions and improvements re-
lative to the commercial and naval in-
terests of the empire, the result of much
study and expense, and from which he
has hitherto derived no benefit, in conse-
quence chiefly of the short duration of
the exclusive privilege granted by letters
patent, the limited number of persons who
are permitted to embark as partners in an
invention, and the publicity given to the
descriptions thereof; the petitioner begs
to state that his inventions are such as re-
quire a long period to mature and render
profitable, and require a greater capital
to bring into extensive operation, than
the above limited number of individuals
can be found to contribute; also, that the
previouspublicityofthe descriptions might
enable other persons to put his inventions
into effect in foreign countries before, or






87] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
House was placed with regard to those
estimates. A committee was appointed
in 1817 to inquire into this subject. The
result of that inquiry was this:-On the
1st of January 1,800, the sum voted by
the Irish parliament, for charitable pur-
poses, was 47,2841. This was at the time
that the Union took place. In the act of
union was a clause to continue these votes
for twenty years. At the end of that
time, the system was to cease. Now, he
begged of the House to consider what
they were doing. His firm conviction
was, that the granting of money for
charitable institutions, conducted as those
in Ireland were, was wasting the public
money. Instead of reducing these es-
timates, they were now four or five times
greater than they were at the time of the
Union. A minute inquiry into those in-
stitutions would prove, that the money
was wasted, and not applied to the real
purposes for which it was voted. Being
of this opinion, he would move, by way of
amendment, to leave out from the word
"That" to the end of the question, in
order to add the words, when the prin-
ciple of supporting local charities and
other institutions at the public expense is
extremely questionable, and the present
distressed state of Great Britain is con-
sidered, it becomes the imperative duty
of this House to institute an inquiry be-
fore they proceed further in voting to
the amount of 371,5891. for the support
of local institutions in Ireland, more es-
pecially so, when no less a sum than
171,2611. is required in the present year
for the support of the charitable institu-
tions for which the Irish parliament, on
an average of the six years 1794 to 1800,
voted only 47,2841.," instead thereof.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
that if the votes for those charitable in-
stitutions were now proposed for the first
time, he could not conceive any sort of
reasoning which could make him ac-
quiesce in them. But they had now been
voted for so long a period, that they ought
not to be abruptly discontinued. The
House would not, he was sure, be disposed
at once to break up these establishments,
which, however questionable in their prin-
ciple, were necessary and useful to the
people of Ireland. No one would re-
commend to the legislature to discard
from their mind all charitable feelings for
a cold and too strict an economy.
Mr. Hume said, that it was now five
years since government ought to have pro.


Education in Ireland. [88
posed to the House to reduce these esti-
mates; but, instead of that, they had
been going on increasing from year to
year. He had no confidence in the right
hon. gentleman, nor in any part of the
government, and would divide the House
on the amendment.
The House divided: for bringing up
the report 60. Against it 6.
List of the Minority.
Bright, H. Smith, W.
Davies, TELLERS.


llice, E.
Fergusson, sir R.
Lockhart, J.


Hume, J.
Wood, aid.


EDUCATION IN IRELAND.] Mr. Hume
again expressed his objections to the vote
for the Kildare-street Society, in Dublin.
In addition to what he had said last
night, as to the scholars bearing exactly
a seventieth proportion to the [number of
schools of this institution, in the several
counties of Ireland, he was now enabled
to state, that the same proportion was ob-
servable in the reports of the society of
1824, 1825, and 1826. He was, therefore,
warranted in saying, that this was a ma-
nufactured statement. He apologized,
however, for having connected the church
of Ireland so closely with this institution.
This was professedly a proselyting society,
and it was impossible for a Catholic to
read any work called a tract. He ob-
jected to a tract called a "Search for Sin,"
as containing the most disgusting rhap-
sodies. He had a horror of tracts. It
was monstrous to charge so large a sum
Sfor educating 26,000 Catholic children.
SHe concluded by moving, as an amend-
ment, That a commission being now
employed to inquire into the state of
education in Ireland, and the best means
of promoting the same, it is, in the opinion
of this House, as contrary to parlia-
mentary usage, as it is inconsistent with
economy, to allow of any increase of
expense for the society for promoting
the education of the poor of Ireland until
the commissioners have made their final
report to this House, and therefore the
amount should be reduced to 22,0001., the
amount voted last year for that institu-
tion."
Mr. F. Lewis said, that the commission
had already reported, but the hon. mem-
ber had not read that report. He de-
fended these institutions, as, from his own
knowledge, being highly beneficial to
Ireland.






89] Liverpool and Manchester Railway Bill.


The amendment was negatived, and the tion the bill came before the House, it
resolution agreed to. was, he said, made manifest that there
was an absolute necessity for a more rapid
HOUSE OF COMMONS. and cheaper communication between
Liverpool and Manchester than prevailed
Thursday, April 6. at present; and it was also made clear,
LIVERPOOL AND MANCHESTER RAIL- to the satisfaction of the committee, that
WAY BILL.] General Gascoyne rose for that communication would be best esta-
the purpose of moving the third reading of blished by the proposed rail-road. The
this bill. He observed, that though he necessity of that rapid and cheap commu-
had been a member of that House for nication was apparent from the increase
many years, he had rarely found it ne- which had taken place in the trade of
cessary to make any observation on a Liverpool. The trade of that port gene-
local measure of this nature; but, as he rally had been calculated to have doubled
saw an unusual muster of those who ob- every twenty years since 1760, and the
ejected to the bill, he felt it to be his duty trade in cotton to have doubled every
to offer a few remarks in support of it. ten years. There might be some landed
His constituents were decidedly in favour proprietors who might feel inconvenience
of the measure, as was evident from the from this rail-road; they were, however,
number of petitions which had been pre- by far the smaller number; the majority
sented, showing the benefit that would were either neuter, or satisfied that their
be derived from it. It was true, that last property would be served by the pro-
session a similar measure had been de- jected rail-road. It was intended to
feated, but even then the justice of its make liberal compensation to all those
principle had been admitted and, since whose property might sustain any injury.
that time, those who most strenuously The principal opposition to the bill arose
objected to the formation of the road, from the proprietors of canal shares; but,
had given up their opposition. It could much as individuals interests ought to be
not be denied, that the trade of Liverpool respected, they ought not to prevent a
and Manchester had increased very much great public improvement.
of late years; and therefore this new Mr. Stanley requested the House to
communication between the two places bear in mind, that the bill which now
had become necessary. It was said, that came recommended by the committee,
individuals, who had property on the in- was last year rejected by the House. He
tended line of road, would be injured. would undertake to show, that the ad-
This, however, was an argument that vantages of cheapness and rapidity which
would militate against every species of were expected from this bill, would by
improvement. The population on the no means result from it. He would not
thirty-one miles which intervened between object to it, if any case of public necessity,
Liverpool and Manchester was nearer in or great public improvement required it;
amount to 1,000,000, than 800,000 per- and least of all would he object to it if it
sons ; and, therefore, it was impossible were proved that it would be serviceable
that some inconvenience must not be to the trade of Ireland. No bill had ever
suffered. But, assuredly, inconvenience come before the House with higher pre-
ought not to prevent a great public im- tensions than the present. It was first
provement. This was a measure that did proposed, that the movement on this rail-
not originate in the spirit of speculation, road should be as rapid as twelve miles
Local circumstances, and the clear ne- an hour; this was then altered to ten,
cessity of having an additional accommo- and thus the thirty miles was to be gone
dation for the transit of goods between over in three hours. But, what was now
the two towns, had given rise to it. The proposed? Why, the very reverse of
plan would be extremely beneficial to this; and, instead of moving at the rate
Ireland ; for he considered the adoption of ten miles an hour, it was intended to
of every project which rendered the com- move at the rate of three miles an hour,
munication between the two counties which was the performance of thirty miles
more rapid and easy as a point gained for in ten hours, instead of thirty miles in
Ireland. three. The conveyance by the canals
Mr. William Peel seconded the mo- was twelve hours. There were some who
tion. From the evidence given before stated it at a higher rate; but the average
the committee, with whose recommenda- conveyance was twelve hours, making


A rIL 6, 1826.






85] Public Charities in Ireland.
NATIONAL PICTURE GALLERY.] The
Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, that
9,0001. be granted to his majesty for the
purchase of Pictures for the National
Gallery for the year 1826." In so doing
he wished to explain to the House the
circumstances under which the purchase
had been effected. Having heard that
three paintings of some of the most re-
nowned of the old masters were on sale,
and wishing to add Ibem to the national
collection, his majesty's government were
fortunate enough in having agreed for
their purchase; and, when the House was
aware of their value he was sure there
could be but one opinion on the sub-
ject. One of the pictures was by Poussin,
another by Carracci, and the third was the
production of that celebrated master,
Titian. The three paintings were admi-
rable specimens of their respective mas-
ters. The picture by Carracci was admit-
ted to be one of the very best of that great
master. It was a singularly beautiful
painting, both with respect to its design
and the exquisite felicity of its colouring.
The picture by Titian had been some
time in this country. Its subject was Bac-
chus and Ariadne, and it was confessedly
the finest specimen of that great master.
It was not a large picture, but its beauty
was unequalled. He was quite certain
that no person would grudge the sum of
9,0001. which had been given for these
pictures. Artists and persons of the first
taste and judgment had concurred in
praising their beauty. The late Mr.
Angerstein had offered 5,0001. for the
Titian alone, so that the three pictures
could not be considered dear at the price
which they cost the country. They were
now in the National Gallery, which was
open to the inspection of the public.
The resolution was agreed to.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 23.
LARCENY BILL.] Mr. Secretary Peel
brought in his bill for consolidating and
amending the Laws in England relative
to Larceny, and certain other offences,
affecting property." lie said, he was so
desirous that this bill should receive the
most deliberate investigation, that he
hoped he should be permitted to have it
read the first and second time, and to go
through the committee, where the blanks
which fixed the penalty to the different
offences could be filled up. The bill


MARCH 23, 1S26. [S6i
would then be placed before the House in
a more perfect state, and gentlemen could
come to the discussion, with a complete
knowledge of all its provisions; and lie
should hb perfectly prepared to give every
opportunity for the discussion of the
principle of the measure, if any objection
were raised against it.
The bill was teen read a first and
second time, and committed.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE EILL.] Mr. Secre-
tary Peel next brought in his bill "for im-
proving the administration of Criminal
Justice in England," and requested he
might be allowed to take the same course
wilt this as he had done with the pre-
ceding measure. This bill differed only
in one respect from the statement which
lie had made when he obtained leave to
bring it in, and lihat alteration was made
on the suggestion of one of the highest
judicial authorities this country had ever
produced-an authority whose opinions
were reverenced in every part of the world
where a love of justice and equity pre-
vailed-he alluded to lord Stowell, the
venerable judge of the Admiralty Court.
That noble lord proposed to extend the
principle of the bill, so fir as it related to
prosecutions for misdemeanor at the
quarter sessions, to offences tried in the
Admiralty Court. At present, when per-
sons were tried for offences committed on
the high seas, even of the most atrocious
character, the court had no power by law
to award any indemnification to the per-
sons supporting the prosecution; and the
object of the alteration was, to give to
the court of Admiralty a discretionary
power of indemnifying individuals who
came forward as prosecutors. On the
common principle of justice it was only
fair that the expense should be borne by
the public.
The bill was then read a first and se-
cond time, and committed.

PuBLIc CHARITIES IN IRELAND.]
The order of lhe day for receiving the
Report of the Committee of Supply was
read. On the question, that the report
be now brought up,"
Mr. Humie said, he had not heard from
his majesty's ministers whether they in-
tended to make any alteration in the esti-
mates for charitable purposes in Ireland.
He would, therefore, avail himself of the
present opportunity of placing on record
his opinion of the situation in which the







91] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Liverpool and Manchester Railway Bill. [92


allowance for stoppages; whereas, in the
estimate of the promoters of this bill, it
was ten hours without any such allow-
ance. Thus, then, it would appear, that
there was very little difference as regarded
the speed of conveyance, on the shewing
of the projectors themselves. Another
point in which the bill had varied from
its original projection was, that the la-
bours of that useful animal, the horse,
were to be dispensed with, and the whole
was to be done by steam: whereas, it
now appeared that nearly the whole work
was to be done by horse-labour. On the
Darlington rail-road, where the experi-
ment had been tried, a fourth or fifth of
the whole time that they were on the road
was consumed in stoppages; and he
begged again to call to the attention of
the House, that no allowance was made
for this in the provisions of the present
bill. He would now proceed to show
the House that goods would not be con-
veyed more cheaply. This would be
seen from a comparison of the charges
of freight and tonnage made by canal
conveyance, and those proposed to be
made for conveyance of goods by the
rail-road. The average rate of freight
by the former was 10s. 5d. per ton, and
that by the rail-road 9s. 6d; but, in the
former charge was included the expense
of warehousing, cartage, &c., which might
be stated to be at Is. 5d. This was not
included in the latter, and thus the rate
of freight of the canal was 9s. per
ton ; that of the rail-road 9s. 6d. He
next came to the charge of tonnage. The
tonnage charged by the canal was 3s. 4d.
on all goods, with the exception of coal,
on which the tonnage was Is. 6d.; and
manure was carried free. Now, what
were the charges proposed for conveyance
by the rail-road? On cotton goods 7s. 9d.
instead of 3s. 4d.; on timber and grain
6s. 5d. instead of 3s. 4d.; on stone and
brick 5s. 2d. instead of 3s. 4d.; on coal at
3s. 10d. instead of Is. 6d.; and tonnage
was to be charged for manure and other
matter for agricultural produce, which by
canal conveyance was free. He knew it
had been stated before the committee, by
a coal-broker of Liverpool, that, in conse-
quence of the insufficiency of the com-
munication by the canal, he had been
unable to perform a contract into which
he had entered for 1,000 ton of coal.
This individual had shown clearly enough,
that he had not performed his contract,
but it was no less clearly shown, that the


fault did not rest with the canal. The
House, he contended, were bound to inter-
fere and prevent this mad and extravagant
speculation from being carried into effect.
Many had already suffered by it. When it
was first projected, the shares were at 40 per
cent premium; but, since the publication
of the evidence, they had fallen to 1 per
cent discount. The opinion expressed
by two engineers as to the expense which
would be incurred in carrying this project
into effect was very different. Mr.
Rennie, the son of a very distinguished
individual, had stated, that the hill neae
Liverpool, the elevation of which was 1 in
49, would require 1-15th, additional horse-
power; but Mr. Farmer said, that, in-
stead of 1-15th, the additional horse-
power required would be as 57 to 10,
The sum which would be required to
purchase the land, and to carry the mea-
sure completely into effect, would be
435,0001. without making any charge for
carrying the bill through parliament;
which was a sum greatly beyond Mr.
Rennie's estimate. In order to pay, even
moderately, it would be necessary that
313,000 tons of goods should be conveyed
by the rail-road in the course of the year,
or 857 tons a-day; 430 tons must be
moving simultaneously in one direction,
and 430 in another, or else the share-
holders would not receive Is. interest for
their 435,0001. The hon. gentleman con-
tended, from a reference to the goods
carried by the canal, that it was impossible
such a quantity as he had mentioned
would ever be conveyed by the rail-road.
Gentlemen might say, Oh, let us have
the rail-road by all means, and the canal
also. Let each take its chance for suc-
cess." In answer to this, he would say,
that if, should the experiment fail, they
could undo all the mischief which must
be perpetrated in making the trial, he
would not object to it. But if they could
not undo that mischief, then it was the
duty of parliament to proceed very cau-
tiously. They ought to take care, before
the scheme was entered into, that the
public should be benefitted by it in a
much greater proportion than individuals
would be injured by it. The hon. gen-
tleman concluded by moving as an
amendment, That the bill be read a
third time that day six months."
Sir Isaac Coffin seconded the amend-
ment. There had, he said, been a great
deal of maneuvering about this bill. It
Swas thrown out last session, and taken up






89] Liverpool and Manchester Railway Bill.


The amendment was negatived, and the tion the bill came before the House, it
resolution agreed to. was, he said, made manifest that there
was an absolute necessity for a more rapid
HOUSE OF COMMONS. and cheaper communication between
Liverpool and Manchester than prevailed
Thursday, April 6. at present; and it was also made clear,
LIVERPOOL AND MANCHESTER RAIL- to the satisfaction of the committee, that
WAY BILL.] General Gascoyne rose for that communication would be best esta-
the purpose of moving the third reading of blished by the proposed rail-road. The
this bill. He observed, that though he necessity of that rapid and cheap commu-
had been a member of that House for nication was apparent from the increase
many years, he had rarely found it ne- which had taken place in the trade of
cessary to make any observation on a Liverpool. The trade of that port gene-
local measure of this nature; but, as he rally had been calculated to have doubled
saw an unusual muster of those who ob- every twenty years since 1760, and the
ejected to the bill, he felt it to be his duty trade in cotton to have doubled every
to offer a few remarks in support of it. ten years. There might be some landed
His constituents were decidedly in favour proprietors who might feel inconvenience
of the measure, as was evident from the from this rail-road; they were, however,
number of petitions which had been pre- by far the smaller number; the majority
sented, showing the benefit that would were either neuter, or satisfied that their
be derived from it. It was true, that last property would be served by the pro-
session a similar measure had been de- jected rail-road. It was intended to
feated, but even then the justice of its make liberal compensation to all those
principle had been admitted and, since whose property might sustain any injury.
that time, those who most strenuously The principal opposition to the bill arose
objected to the formation of the road, from the proprietors of canal shares; but,
had given up their opposition. It could much as individuals interests ought to be
not be denied, that the trade of Liverpool respected, they ought not to prevent a
and Manchester had increased very much great public improvement.
of late years; and therefore this new Mr. Stanley requested the House to
communication between the two places bear in mind, that the bill which now
had become necessary. It was said, that came recommended by the committee,
individuals, who had property on the in- was last year rejected by the House. He
tended line of road, would be injured. would undertake to show, that the ad-
This, however, was an argument that vantages of cheapness and rapidity which
would militate against every species of were expected from this bill, would by
improvement. The population on the no means result from it. He would not
thirty-one miles which intervened between object to it, if any case of public necessity,
Liverpool and Manchester was nearer in or great public improvement required it;
amount to 1,000,000, than 800,000 per- and least of all would he object to it if it
sons ; and, therefore, it was impossible were proved that it would be serviceable
that some inconvenience must not be to the trade of Ireland. No bill had ever
suffered. But, assuredly, inconvenience come before the House with higher pre-
ought not to prevent a great public im- tensions than the present. It was first
provement. This was a measure that did proposed, that the movement on this rail-
not originate in the spirit of speculation, road should be as rapid as twelve miles
Local circumstances, and the clear ne- an hour; this was then altered to ten,
cessity of having an additional accommo- and thus the thirty miles was to be gone
dation for the transit of goods between over in three hours. But, what was now
the two towns, had given rise to it. The proposed? Why, the very reverse of
plan would be extremely beneficial to this; and, instead of moving at the rate
Ireland ; for he considered the adoption of ten miles an hour, it was intended to
of every project which rendered the com- move at the rate of three miles an hour,
munication between the two counties which was the performance of thirty miles
more rapid and easy as a point gained for in ten hours, instead of thirty miles in
Ireland. three. The conveyance by the canals
Mr. William Peel seconded the mo- was twelve hours. There were some who
tion. From the evidence given before stated it at a higher rate; but the average
the committee, with whose recommenda- conveyance was twelve hours, making


A rIL 6, 1826.








during the present, to meet the views of Mr. Philips said, that the interests of
some noble personages. But he would the public were of paramount importance
not consent to see widows' premises in- to those of the canals; but he was per-
vaded, or the premises of any humble suaded that the rail-roads would be of no
person invaded, to promote the views and general advantage commensurate with
interests of certain high persons. There the injury they would inflict upon private
was no necessity for this bill. He had property. He should therefore oppose
never heard of a ship being delayed a day the bill.
in the port of Liverpool, on account of Sir J. Neuwport was in favour of the
want ofsufficiently rapid conveyance from measure, which he thought would pro-
Manchester. He had known Liverpool mote the interests both of Liverpool and
for forty-four years, and had never heard Ireland.
of such an occurrence. He would ask, how Captain Bradshato said, that this rail-
any person would like to have a rail-road road would become a monopoly in the
formed under his parlour window ? The hands of the proprietors.
present was one of ie most flagrant im- The House then divided: for the third
positions ever known, reading 88; against it 41; majority 47.
Mr. Huskisson said, he did not mean to The bill was then read a third time and
follow the hon. member who had spoken passed.
last but one, into all the details to which
he had adverted. The course which the SHERIFF OF DURHAM BILL.] Mr.
hon. member had pursued was rather Secretary Peel rose to move for leave
unusual. He might have urged all his to bring in a bill to remedy the
objections in the committee (which he inconveniences arising from the present
believed the hon. member had not attend- state of the county of Durham, with
ed) instead of coming down and discus- regard to the appointment of its High
sing all the bearings of the bill on the Sheriff. That office was held for life,
third reading. His gallant friend had in the county of Durham, by the nomi-
told them, that this measure went to in- nation of the Bishop; and in conse-
vade private property. But this must quence of the death of that prelate, and
always be the case whenever an improve- from there being as yet no successor
ment was contemplated, whether it was possessed of the power to appoint his
the formation of a highway or the excava- officers, the whole business of the county
tion of canal. His gallant friend had stat- was at a stand. No juries could be
ed, that he had known Liverpool for forty- summoned, no sessions could be held, no
four-years. Now, he would ask hii gallahit public business of any kind could be
friend whether, during that long period, transacted, unless some measure was
the towns of Liverpool and Manchester adopted to render those officers still
had remained stationary ? If they had, legally capable of executing the duties
as was the fact, increased in size and imi- assigned to them. For that purpose, he
portance, that circumstance formed a proposed that the sheriff and other offi-
prima facie case in favour of this measure. cers should be empowered by a bill,
The argument that this rail-road would which he trusted the House would enable
charge more to the public than was him to pass through its stages with the
charged by the canal, was one which he least possible delay, to continue in the
could not understand. If it did charge situations they now hold for six months
more, the only effect would be, that the from the present time. He was not how-
public would not go upon it. But the ever prepared to say, that, after the ter-
only ground upon which he supported mination of that period, he would consent
this rail-road was, that it would be likely to leave the office of High Sheriff of the
to charge a great deal less than was populous and important county of Durham
charged by the canal. It was an especial to revert to the same state, with respect to
condition that the profits upon the under- its appointment and duration, as before the
taking should be limited always to ten death of the late prelate. He saw no
per cent. Would the canals limit their sufficient reason why that high office
profit to this extent-taking as they were should be held at the pleasure of the
now doing, more than 100? His main bishop, nor why the gentlemen of the
reason for assisting this project of the county of Durham should not be com-
rail-road was to break up the overgrown pulled, like the gentlemen of the other
monopoly which was now enjoyed by the counties of England, to serve in their
canals.


Sherkl'qt Du'U lrham 1 3ill.


APRIL 6, 1826.






95] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
turn when regularly presented for that
purpose. There was no bishop at present;
but he conceived it to be a matter worthy
of serious consideration, whether three
names should not be presented every year
to the future bishop, and whether he
should not be compelled to select from
that number, the person who was to per-
form the duties for the usual period.
The right hon. gentleman then moved,
" That leave be given to bring in a bill,
to remedy the inconveniences ,in the ad-
ministration of justice, arising from the
present vacancy of the see of Durham,
and for preventing the like in future."
Mr. Hume approved of the proposal
for assimilating the practice in counties,
in the appointment of sheriffs, but he
wished to take that opportunity of put-
ting it to the right hon. Secretary, whether
it would not be expedient to make some
alteration in the revenues of the bishop of
Durham. All the world acknowledged
the income of that person was much too
large, and he conceived there was no re-
flection cast upon the church of Eng-
land more poignant or more just, than
the lamentable disproportion in the in-
comes of its servants. Thousands were
left poor to swell the revenue of one or
two overwhelming rich, and he thought
the present would be a noble opportunity
to commence a reformation of errors, to
cast aside abuses, and, by reducing the
salary of the bishop, clear the way for
freeing the church of England from the
imputations thrown out against it for the
inequality of the incomes allotted to its
ministers. The right hon. gentleman had,
to his infinite honour, been the proposer
of many improvements, and he could not
avoid throwingouta suggestion of that kind
at the present moment, that the right hon.
gentleman might have the credit of taking
it upon himself now ; for he might be as-
sured, that the time would come when such
a reformation must take place, in spite of'
all opposition, and when theincomes of the
dignitaries of the church of England
would be reduced to a sum, bearing a
juster relation to that received by their
fellow-labourers, and the whole body be
thereby rendered more respectable and
more useful.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

SALARY OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE
BOARD OF TRADE.] The House having
resolved itself into a committee, to which
the Civil List act was referred,


Salary of the President [96
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
that, in rising to move'a resolution regard-
ing the salary of the president of the
Board of Trade, he thought it necessary
to observe, that the state of that office
had not alone been considered defective by
his colleagues in office on that side of the
House, but had actually, on several oc-
casions, drawn forth observations from
the gentlemen opposite, many of whom,
during thelast session,had repeatedlygiven
utterance to an opinion that the salary of
his right hon. friend was totally incom-
patible with the duties which it became
necessary for him to perform, and ex-
pressed their regret that so important an
office should be allowed to continue with-
out any adequate remuneration. Prior
to the year 1782, all matters connected
with the trade and commerce of the coun-
try had been managed by a Board com-
posed of various members of the govern-
ment, each of whom received a salary for
that specific service. It might be doubted
now how far a Board thus constituted
was calculated to take a proper view of
the various commercial relations of the
country, or to advance those measures
which might be considered essential to
the public interests; certain it was, that
many more received salaries than were atall
necessary for the service of that depart-
ment ; and, after having been for a time
subjected to the lash of Mr. Burke's ridi-
cule at that period, the Board was finally
abolished, and a determination made to
have its functions performed in some
other way. It was soon found, however,
that in this country, commerce affected
such a variety of interests, involved ques-
tions so complicated, and altogether de-
manded a knowledge and acquirements so
different from the common routine of
ministerial duties, as to render it impos-
sible that it could be safely left without
some superintendence more particularly
devoted to itspeculiar objects; and, in con-
sequence, about the year 1784, the con-
cerns of trade and commerce were in-
trusted to a committee of the privy coun-
cil, under the direction of a president and
vice-president, holding other offices, from
which they received those salaries which
were justly due as a remuneration to all
who devoted their services to the benefit
of their country. But it must be obvious
that this mode of paying for the fulfil-
ment of the duties of a highly useful and
effective office by the salary of one which
was well paid, though less effective, was






97the Boa ofe oarof Trade.
subject to the greatest possible objection.
Parliament had acquiesced in this propo-
sition, so far as to appoint a proper salary
for the vice-president; which happened
when he himself held the office some years
ago. He thought that a fit remuneration
for the president would be 5,0001. a-year.
The House would recollect that it was
an office which, in these times especially,
called for more labour, both of body and
mind, than any other now in existence.
He had the honour to fill it once, and he
could speak to the fact, that no situation
of which he had any knowledge required
so absolute a devotion of the whole mind
to the duties of the office. To the ar-
duous nature of those duties, he, however
inadequate he might have been to fulfil
them, could, from experience, bear ample
testimony; and he would venture to de-
clare,that, however arduous he might have
found them then, they must have since
become of a nature which would require
a devotion both of bodily and mental
powers which would not be repaid too
largely by the sum he now proposed. He
could not conclude what he had thought it
necessary to say on this subject, without
a word respecting the individual who at
present held the office to which he pro-
posed to give an additional salary. He
conceived it would be very bad taste in
him to attempt to pronounce any flourish-
ing panegyric upon his right hon. friend ;
but he would take leave to assert, that no
man ever brought to that, or any other
office, greater zeal and devotion-no man
ever brought greater assiduity to all the
various details of his duty-none a more
comprehensive intellect-none a more re-
solute mind-and noneeverhad discharged
all the functions of his office with more
real benefit to his country [hear !]. And
it was a very great gratification to him, in
applying for the consent of parliament to
an increase of the salary of the President
of the Board of Trade, to be able to say,
with respect to the person who now held
it, and for whose benefit that increase
was intended, that, while he had thus
worthily fulfilled his duties for the benefit
of his country, he had been able to give
satisfaction to every party in that House
and in the country. He would now move,
SThat his majesty be enabled to grant a
salary of 5,0001. a-year to the President
of the Board of Trade."
Mr. Hume said, that any suggestion
thrown out by his honourable friends for
increasing the allowances ofpublicofficers,
VOL. XV.


APRIL 6, 1826. [98
met with ready attention from his ma-
jesty's ministers ; not so, even upon the
most urgent grounds, suggestions for re-
duction. He could not raise theslightest
objection to the right hon. gentleman who
had filled this office latterly with such lau-
dable zeal and ability. Still, however,
there were questions connected with the
subject which ought to be fully explained
Was this salary of 5,0001. to be accounted
a sufficient compensation for the duties of
the office ; or was the right hon. gentle-
man to continue to receive with it the
salary of 3,0001. a year as Treasurer of the
Navy; or was he to derive any pension
from the public purse, to be paid at the
same time, with his salary of President of
the Board of Trade ? Undoubtedly this
last office had become one of considerable
importance; and, though circumstances
still prevented the right hon. gentleman
from doing all that he ought in it, he
seemed to do all that he could. But was
there no possibility of rewarding him
without increasing the burthens of the
public ? There must be many offices in
both of the departments with which the
right hon. gentleman was connected,
which had fallen into disuse, the salaries
of which ought to be applied to this pur-
pose. This would be really proceeding
in the spirit of that act of the 22 Geo. 3,
which it was the object of the chancellor
of the Exchequer's motion to have re-
considered. If they were in earnest,
therefore, they would, before proceeding
to vote an addition of 5,0001. a year to
the public salaries, first of all abolish as
many useless places as would effect a
saving to that amount.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in
reply to tile hon. gentleman, said, that his
right hon. friend had no other salary but
that of Treasurer of the Navy. As to
the question, whether his right lion. friend
held any other office, he had, until lately,
been agent for Ceylon, but had now given
up that situation. Neither he nor his
right hon. friend ever thought of his hold-
ing the situation of Treasurer of the Navy
with the presidency of the Board of Trade,
after the appointment of a sufficient salary
for the last-named office. He thought
that the salary of Treasurer of the Navy
was no more than the person holding that
office was entitled to receive, if he held
no other situation. He thought, how-
ever, that there was no necessity for con-
tinuing the allowance of a house at the
public expense. The reasons which ap-
1H






993 HOUSE OF COMMONS,
plied to that indulgence in many other
cases, were not applicable in this. It was
not intended in future to give him the use
of a house; and the apartments in So-
merset house would be available for the
increase of business in other departments.
The salary was already sufficiently low,
having been reduced from 4,0001. to
3,0001. a year. He could not consent to
treat the office as a sinecure. A neg-
ligent person might make almost any office
a sinecure: but the House would recol-
lect, that the Treasurer of the Navy held
a situation of great responsibility. He
was a public accountant, and he could
not make out a clear title to his own pro-
perty after his resignation or dismissal,
until he had obtained a proper quietus
from those who were empowered by the
government to audit his accounts. He
could not agree with the hon. member
that there were grounds for reducing any
of the offices of those establishments.
They were offices which must be held by
effective persons; and he could not con-
ceive how the hon. gentleman, by cutting
and carving, could draw funds out of
them to remunerate the labours of the
President of the Board of Trade. What-
ever notions the lion. member might en-
tertain on the subject, he for one would
never subscribe to the principle of making
up from other sources the salary of indi-
viduals who had arduous and responsible
offices to fill.
Mr. Calcraft bore testimony to the high
talents of the right hon. the President of
the Board of Trade. He was free to say
that a more able and efficient servant
could not be found to fill the duties of
that office. Yet, much as he respected
the zeal and abilities of the right hon.
gentleman, he could not see the necessity
of increasing the salary of the situation
which he held, at least to the extent which
had been proposed by the chancellor of
the Exchequer. Under cover of giving
5,0001. a year to his right hon. friend, he
was aware that he should have to give a
situation of 3,0001. a year, the treasurer-
ship of the Navy, to some other of his
friends. But he would say, if any in-
crease were necessary, let both offices be
still united, and let the right hon. gentle-
man receive 2,0001. a year as navy trea-
surer, and 3,0001. a year as President of
the Board of Trade. He could see no
reasons why the offices should not be
blended; and really, when the House re-
collected the increased expenditure of the


Salary of the President1


country, and the difficulty of the times,
he thought it high time to pause before
the burthens of the country were aug-
mented. The influence of the Crown,
though measures had been adopted to re-
duce it, was still frightfully large; and the
House should be cautious how they in-
creased that influence by throwing open
new offices. He did not wish, however,
to reflect, in the slightest degree, on the
right hon. gentleman for whom the pre-
sent vote was proposed, but he could not
avoid remarking, that the first lord of the
Admiralty had no more than 5,0001. a year.
There were many situations much more
inadequately paid than that of the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade; and it would
not be difficult to point out one which, in
point of responsibility and labour, was
fully equal to that office, which was very
unequally remunerated. He remembered
that Mr. Dundas held the situation of
Treasurer of the Navy along with his other
responsible appointments; and such was
the nature of the office, that the Speaker
of the House of Commons held it on
another occasion. In fact, it was an ap-
pointment of so little importance, that all
it required was a residence in London.
He had only to say, that, unless the chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would consent to
blend both offices, and appropriate 5,0001.
a year for the performance of their re-
spective duties, he should feel himself
bound to oppose the original proposition.
Mr. Robertson complained of the short
notice which had been given with respect
to the present motion. He had not heard
of it until he came down that night.
There were circumstances of suspicion
connected with this measure, which, if
known to the House, would, he was con-
vinced, make a strong impression. Cir-
Scumstances of a mysterious nature were
connected with the present motion, of
which it was right that the House should
be put in possession before they came to
Sa decision. He begged to call the atten-
tion of the House to the charter which
had been last year granted by the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade, to incorporate
a certain silk company. At the head of
that company stood the name of Mr.
Alexander Baring, and he could not but
consider it a very singular coincidence,
that early in the month of June, 1825, a
short time after the charter had been
granted, Mr. Baring rose in his place to
propose an increase to the salary of the
President of the Board of Trade. He


[100






101]


of the Board of Trade.


need not remind the House that the pro.
fits of this company were to arise from
the propagation of silk worms, and it was
expected to prove a most lucrative spe-
culation. The member for Taunton rose
on another occasion to propose remu-
neration to the same individual, and he
could not but feel that there must have
been some secret understanding between
the parties. He begged to be understood,
however, that he did not mean to reflect,
in the remotest degree, on the hon. mem-
ber for Taunton; but, feeling as he did,
that there was something of a mysterious
nature in the transaction, he could not
agree in the propriety of granting an in-
crease to the President of the Board of
Trade, under the circumstances which he
had stated. He knew of no measure
adopted by that right hon. gentleman for
the good of the country that had not
originated with the other side of the
House. He had not risen to oppose the
measure on another than public grounds;
and, in giving it his opposition, he did so
from principle. He conceived that the
President of the Board of Trade was
amply paid for the duties which he had
to perform; and, for the reasons which he
had stated, he wished the House to pause
before they agreed to the measure.
Mr. Baring said, he could assure the
hon. gentleman, that he had totally mis-
taken his motives in proposing an increase
of salary to the right hon. the President
of the Board of Trade. He certainly had
proposed that increase from a conviction
that it was called for; and, in giving his
support to the present measure, his opi-
nion as to its justice and expediency was
unaltered. He would go even further,
and say, that there never was a vote more
justly called for. With respect to the al-
lusion which had been made to the com-
pany of which he had become a member,
he begged leave to offer some explanation.
The silk company was established last year
with a view of benefitting Ireland, and with
that view he had lent his name to the con-
cern; but with respect to any profits which
he might be supposed to derive from the
speculation, he could assure the hon. gen-
tleman and the House, that he had only
contributed 2001. towards the concern,
and that his expectations consequently
could not have been very highly excited.
If he thought the statement of the hon.
gentleman likely to make any impression
on the House or the country, he would
go more into detail; but, as he could not


APRIL 6, 1826. [102
anticipate any such effect, he would not
say another word upon the subject, fur-
ther than that, neither he nor the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade ever ex-
changed a word about this company,
though he could not put it out of the
head of the hon. member for Gram-
pound that something mysterious was
lurking between them. With respect to
the vote, he looked to the principle upon
which it was proposed, and in this he was
sure he should not stand alone. For,
however some might differ as to the way
in which the increase ought to be given,
all were agreed as to the principle. He
was sure there was only one opinion in
the House, and throughout the country,
of the eminent services of the right hon.
gentleman, and of the zeal and integrity
with which he discharged his duty, and
which entitled him to the amplest remu-
neration. Government were negligent in
not having long since remunerated them.
The sum proposed was fair as compared
with the remuneration given to other public
officers, all of whom ought to be amply paid.
Upon this point he had no objection to
urge; but to sinecures he entertained the
strongest objection, as being not only un-
necessary and expensive, but as affording
an opportunity to the opponents of go-
vernment, ofperpetually declaiming against
them. He was sorry that another ques-
tion had been mixed up with this resolu-
tion; for he confessed he did not see why
the office of Treasurer of the Navy should
be retained; and, as to the amount of sa-
lary, if that was to depend upon his being
a public accountant, it might be done
away with; for, where millions passed
through his hands, the miserable pittance
of an individual was no security. The
real security consisted in having the ac-
counts frequently audited.
Mr. Secretary Peel said, that if the
knowledge of what passed there was con-
fined within the walls of the House, it
would be ludicrous in him to notice the
charge of the hon. member for Gram-
pound; and he only did so for the pur-
pose of repeating the declaration which
had been already made by his right hon.
friend, that he had lent his name to that
company honourably, and without the
slightest hope of participating in its ad-
vantages. If it drew to itself all the
wealth of the Indies, his right hon. friend
would not derive a single farthing from it;
and when the hon. member imputed to
the hon. member for Taunton that, on ac.






103] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
count of the miserable profits which he
might realise from a venture of 2001. he
was induced deliberately to propose an
increase of the salary of his right hon.
friend, he would only look for the answer
to so unfounded an imputation, in the
smile which sat upon every face the mo-
ment it was uttered. It astonished him
more than he could express, that in allud-
ingto the conduct of his right hon.friend-
a man as conspicuous for the integrity, zeal,
and ability with which he discharged every
duty confided to him, as he was for the
singular temper and moderation which he
evinced on all occasions-the hon. mem-
ber did not shrink back with shame from
making a charge which affected the moral
character of such a man. It was better
to reserve the consideration of the office
of the Treasurer of the Navy to another
occasion; and then, perhaps, the House
might be of opinion that the duties of that
office would require it to be put into the
hands of a person who had no other pub-
lic responsibility. There was this to be
considered, that the Treasurer of the Navy
incurred a great pecuniary risk, which
would prevent a person accepting it with-
out a corresponding remuneration. -He
had only to allude to circumstances that
had taken place in that office in the course
of the last year, to prove that the respon-
sibility was not ideal. The question was
not now whether those situations should
be held by one and the same person, but
whether the proposed sum of 5,0001. was
or was not a fit remuneration for the ser-
vices of the person sitting as the President
of the Board of Trade. The House, at
the proper time, could take into consider-
ation what alterations should be made in
the treasurership of the Navy, and it would
then recollect, that 1,0001. a-year had al-
ready been deducted from the salary, and
that the house in Somerset Buildings was
about to be relinquished for the public
service. He therefore trusted the com-
mittee would agree to the vote, and leave
the other question for future discussion.
Mr. Maberly entirely concurred in the
view taken of the question before the
House by the right hon. gentlemani who
had just sat down. H11 couid not con-
ceive why the situation of ~PTesiuent of the
Board of T;ade should not be cqual!y re-
munerated with the Secreil.t.y I'L: itl Fo-
reign and Home DepaiLniicts. The la-
bours were at least equal to citliihe of those
appoiniitents ; and li would ugcgest to
!th cnhaccllor Of the Exch~uitu:', tat tlhe


Salary oftlie President


[104


office should be placed on an equal foot-
ing. He bore testimony to the zeal and
talents of the right hon. gentleman in
whose behalf the present application had
been made, and concluded by giving his
cordial support to the motion.
Mr. Dernal also agreed in the vote, on
the understanding that a reduction would
be made in tile salary of the Treasurer of
theNavy,or theoffice altogether abolished.
But, that, if any member should insist on
a pledge to that effect being given before
they concurred in the resolution, he should
feel it his duty to join him.
Mr. Calcraft repeated, that he would
certainly oppose the present vote unless
he received some pledge that the treasurer-
ship of the Navy would be modified, and
the business done, as it might be, by the
paymaster.
Mr. Lockhart wished to know whether
the new arrangement would necessarily
vacate the right hon. gentleman's seat in
that House.
The Chanccllor of the Exchequer said,
the resolution would have no reifrence to
the seat of the right hon. gentleman. He
was adverse to the proposition of amalga-
mating the offices of President of the
Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy.
It was a fallacy to suppose that the latter
office was a sinecure. On the contrary,
its duties were manifold, and essential to
the efficient regulation of that important
branch of the service. Whether 5,0001.
a-year was an exorbitant salary, was a to-
tally distinct question, and the only one
which the committee at present had to
consider.
Mr. T. Wilson considered the present
was not the time for taxing the country
with an increase of official salary. Why
not add 2,000/. a year to the present
income of 3,0001. ? All agreed that the
right ion. gentleman deserved that in-
come, and it would be a much more gra-
cious way of granting it, than the one
proposed, which went unnecessarily to
increase tlie patronage of the Crown.
Mr. Calcraft repeated, that he would
oppose the resolution, unless some pledge
aCera given that it was not intended to be
made an opportunity for placing an addi-
tional office of 3,0001. a year at the dis-
posal of the Crown.
Mr. lume could not acquiesce in the
proposal of the right hon. gentleman op-
posite. The House was bound to abstain
fromi imposing vnew burthens upoi the
cou..i'y, whiile there were already sj many






105 ofa the Board of Trade.
useless ones which ought to be removed.
He was the last man to wish to dictate
how the duties, regarding which so much
difference of opinion appeared to exist,
ought to be done; although he was satisfied
that they might be efficiently discharged
by one person. He was quite willing that
the great services of the President of the
Board of Trade should be rewarded by a
salary of 5,0001.; but the country should
be saved from any increased expense, by
an equivalent reduction in other branches.
With this view, he would move as an
amendment, That a Salary of 5,0001. a
year be allowed to the President of the
Board of Trade; but it is expedient, that
an inquiry should be instituted, to ascer-
tain whether any office or offices, at pre-
sent in existence, can be abolished, or
modified ; and the salaries and allowances
attached tc those offices applied wholly,
or in part, to make up the salary of the
President of the Board of Trade."
Sir F. Onnianeey observed upon the
great responsibility of the Treasurer of the
Navy, and urged the necessity of keeping
this office distinct from that of the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade.
Mr. Baring suggested that it would be
better to leave out the consideration of
the office of Treasurer of the Navy for the
present, and make it the subject of a se-
. .' .i discussion.
T'le Chancellor oftihe Exchequeropposed
the union of the two offices of President
of the Board of Trade and Treasurer of
the Navy. The question at present to be
discussed was, whether or not 5,0001. a
y:ear was too much for the President of
the Board of Trade. With regard to the
Treasurer of Ihe Navy, the House would
till b!, at liberty to pursue whatever
c nurse might appear expedient. They
might if they saw reason, strike out the
sa'?ay of Obat office altogether. A propo-
sitioa to this effect would at ail times be
in the power of ary lion. gentleman who
might net be satisfied with the measures
of his majesty's governiaent. But lie saw
no advantage likely to accrue from the
amalgamation of two offices which had no
necessary connection.
Mr. Elice said, he should decidedly
vote for the salary to be given to the
right lion. gentlean, as a proper but
moderate reraaueratioa for his great ta-
lents and devotion to public business, and
lie filly agreed, that no one hid held any
office more to the advantage of the coun-
try. Still he could not give his vote for


ArI,L 6, 1826.


[0lo


this grant, unless a pledge were given,
that the second office should be made a
subject of revision, and that a retrench-
ment should be made equivalent to the
advance now sought.
Mr. R. Smith thought it incumbent upon
the House to accompany the increased
grant in the one quarter with an inquiry
into the nature of the other office. He
would support the amendment of the hon.
member for Aberdeen, but that he thought
it too general. If it were competent to
him to move an amendment upon an
amendment, he would move that the in-
quiry be restricted to the:office of Treasurer
of the Navy.
Mr. Maberly said, he could not support
the original motion, unless it was modified,
as far as respected the treasurership of the
Navy.
Mr. Hume said, that if the House went
into the committee of inquiry, he would
point out many offices from which the
saving might be made.
Mr. Secretary Peel said, that an inquiry
into the nature of other offices was not
necessarily connected with the present
motion. It was not said that the proposed
salary was too great; but whether it was
too great or too small, if there were any
useless offices, let the House abolish them,
without any reference to the present ques-
tion. If this office was necessary, the
country was rich enough to afford it: if it
was not necessary, the committee ought
not, of course, to agree to the vote. The
hon. member need not regret the rejection
of his amendment now, as he would have
an opportunity of bringing on the subject
again.
Mr. Huime said he was not understood.
He did not mean to object to this vote of
5,0001., but, in granting it, he thought the
sum might be saved from other offices.
Mr. Peel said, the hon. member's
amendment went to a saving of this
5,0001. a year. But why limit the saving
to this ? If lie could point out a saving
of 10,0001. a year, let him do so, but that
need not be dependent on the present
vote, nor ought this grant be made con-
tingent upon the proposed saving.
Mr. Ellice recommended that the
amendment should be confined to the
office of the Treasurer of the Navy, and
that the inquiry should be, whether that
office could be modified or abolished.
Mr. Baring hoped the hon. member for
Aberdeen would agree to the amendment,
by which his proposition for inquiry was






107] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
limited to a single point. He certainly
did not feel prepared to support a motion
for a committee on a rambling inquiry
how they could obtain 5,0001. by reduc-
tion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
the question he had brought before the
committee was, what ought the President
of the Board of Trade to receive? He
thought the two offices ought not to be
connected; and that the question as to
the salary of the Treasurer of the Navy
ought not, therefore, to be discussed, un-
less it could be shewn that they were ne-
cessarily connected with each other. He
had no objection to postpone the consi-
deration of this motion, though he did not
see any necessity for so doing. He would
only observe, that when Mr. Rose held
the office of Treasurer of the Navy, he re-
ceived a higher salary than was at present
given. For the last six years that he held
the office he received 4,0001.; and when
Mr. Tierney held it he received a similar
sum.
The motion was then postponed till to-
morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, April 7.
JURIES IN INDIA BILL.] The report
of the committee on this bill being brought
up,
Mr. Hume complained that the bill, as
it now stood, did not sufficiently define
the powers of the judges in India to select
native subjects to sit upon juries. This
would be considered a great evil by all
who reflected that the prejudices of the
Europeans in India had been carried to
such a height, that there had been a de-
claration made by some of that class, that
they never would convict any white man
of murder, if his victim were a black.
He wished to see the practice established
of composing juries of an equal number of
Europeans and natives, in cases where the
natives were the objects of trial; and he
hoped that the president of the Board of
Control would consent to a provision in the
present bill, that the judges should report
to this country their practice upon the
selection of natives upon juries.
Mr. Wynn said, that the proposition of
the hon. member for Aberdeen was un-
questionably good in principle, but the
selection of natives to sit upon juries
would, in many situations, be found most
inconvenient, and even impossible, in


Scilly Islands. 108
practice. He lamented most strongly the
nature and the degree of the prejudices
existing in India against the native in-
habitants, which prevented the enactment
of such measures as the hon. member
proposed. The prejudices were much
less strong in the national service than
in that of the company, and he had
known instances where persons, rejected
from the latter, had been admitted into the
former, and had risen to the highest rank.
Complaints had certainly been made from
many quarters against the non-admission
of half castes upon juries, but he had re-
ceived no such complaints against the ex-
clusion of the natives. He should be
happy to follow the suggestions of the
hon. member whenever an opportunity
should offer.
The report was agreed to.

SCILLY ISLANDS-PETITION OF THE
INHABITANTS RESPECTING SUBSCRIP-
TION FOR THEIR RELIEF.] Mr. Hume
presented a Petition from the Inhabitants
of the Scilly Islands, setting forth,
That the population of the different
islands of Scilly amounts in the aggregate
to nearly three thousand souls; that the
greater part of the inhabitants of Scilly
have long been exposed to severe distress,
(which at the present time is frightfully
increased), arising generally from the
want of employment, and particularly
from the very peculiar circumstances
under which the islands are held from the
Crown, whence result the absence of any
due form of civil government and admi-
nistration of the laws; the evils to public
morals occasioned by such want of go-
vernment, and the misery inevitably at-
tendant on the deficiency of labour, and
of parochial or other funds for the relief
of the indigent and helpless; that about
seven years since, when the cry of the
numerous starving families of the different
islands had made itself heard throughout
the parent isle, a large subscription, aided
by a considerable grant from his majesty's
government, was raised in England for
the relief of the sufferers, and for pro-
viding them with permanent employ; and
had that subscription been judiciously ex-
pended, it would have gone far to prevent
the possibility of the recurrence of ex-
treme distress, but that, unhappily, no
solid and permanent benefit has been re-
ceived by any class of persons on the
islands from that or any other source, nor
are the petitioners aware that any public






109] Salary of the President, 4fc.
statement has ever been made of the
amount so subscribed (though generally
understood to have exceeded 10,0001.),
or of the manner in which it was expend-
ed ; the petitioners therefore humbly be-
seech the House to continue a commission
(or to adopt such other measures as to
their wisdom shall seem most meet) for
the purpose of inquiring into the amount
and expenditure of the said subscription,
and of the different grants made by go-
vernment for the relief of the distressed
inhabitants of the Scilly islands, since the
year 1818 ; also, to inquire generally into
the state of government and the adminis-
tration of justice at Scilly, the provision
in being for the poor of the different
islands, and other matters connected with
the welfare of their inhabitants, with a
view to the adoption of wholesome and
effectual measures of relief and employ-
ment for a necessitous and starving class
of his majesty's subjects."
Ordered to lie on the table.

SALARY OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE
BOARD OF TRADE.] The Chancellor of
the Exchequer having moved, that the
House should resolve itself into a com-
mittee on the Civil List act,
Mr. Hnume said, he wished, before the
Speaker left the chair, that the chancellor
of the Exchequer would inform the House,
whether it was his intention to add fresh
burthens to the country; or how he meant
to provide for the proposed increase of
salary? If a gentleman was going to
launch a new carriage, he ought, in pru-
dence, first to ask himself how he meant
to pay for it. The right hon. gentleman
was increasing the expense of all the pub-
lic departments at a time when economy
was essentially necessary. How was the
additional salary of the President of the
Board of Trade to be provided for ? Was
any sinecure office to be abolished ? Did
the chancellor of the Exchequer mean to
propose that the office of Treasurer of the
Navy should be done away with ? [Here
an hon. member near Mr. Hume sug-
gested to him, that the additional salary
might be supplied from the income of the
bishopric of Durham.] Well, lie had no
objection; there were ample funds in that
quarter.
The Chancellor of the Excheqeur said,
that whatever connexion the treasurership
of the Navy might have with the Board of
Trade, the Board of Trade had no con-
nexion at all with the bishopric of Dur-


APRIL 7, 1826. [110
ham. It was his intention to state in the
committee how he meant to provide for
the increase of salary. The more conve-
nient mode, therefore, would be to allow
the House to go into a committee.
The House having resolved itself into
a committee, and the chairman having
stated that the original question was, that
5,0001. a year be given as a salary to the
President of the Board of Trade, and that
an amendment had been put to the effect,
that before such salary was granted, it
was expedient to inquire whether any of
the existing offices could be abolished to
make up the above salary, Mr. Hume
said that he wished to withdraw the
amendment, until he should have heard
the right hon. gentleman's explanation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
that if he could persuade himself that the
office of Treasurer of the Navy was a
sinecure, he would readily consent to its
abolition, and provide for the increased
salary of the President of the Board of
Trade out of the saving thus made. But
it would be unreasonable to do so, unless
it could be shown that the office was
unnecessary, or was overpaid. As far as
the present salary might be considered
over-payment for the duties of that office,
disconnected from any other, he was dis-
posed to reduce it. As to the duties of
the office, he had held it, and he could
assure the committee, that it was very far
removed from any thing like a sinecure,
and that it would be impossible to transfer
its duties to the Bank, as some had pre-
posterously supposed, without injury to
the public service. The duty of the
treasurer was not merely the acceptance
of bills drawn upon him by the com-
missioners of the Navy. It was also his
duty to see that the money was paid to
the parties who had a right to receive it.
He had besides to attend to the payment
of money payable on seamen's wills-an
addition to his other duties which had
devolved on him some years back, and
which was in itself no inconsiderable
source of active employment. He had
also constant references made to him from
the paymaster of the Navy, and other
officers subordinate to him; and these
required a great portion of his time.
Until within a few years back, the law was
very defective as to seamen's wills. Frauds
to a great extent had been committed on
individuals and on the public, by the
facility with which money was obtained
under fictitious wills. He would mention






1Il] HOUSE OF COMMONS,


Salary of the President.


only one instance-that of a woman who be assimilated, in point of salary, to that
had obtained several sums of the public of the paymaster-general of the Forces,
money which she claimed as the repre- What was the situation of that office ?
sentative of several seamen who had died, Formerly it was divided between two
and to whom those sums were due. Now, persons, each of whom had a salary of
by the regulations which had taken place 2,0001. a year. This was a mode of
with respect to wills, the Treasurer of the conducting the public service which he
Navy was personally responsible for any would hesitate to defend: but, so it was,
sums of the public money thus paid to until by the recommendation of the Com-
individuals to whom they were not legally mittee of Finance, the second paymaster-
due. The difference between the offices ship was abolished, and a salary of 2,0001.
of treasurer and paymaster of the Navy a year, with a residence, and some small
was, that the former was personally emoluments added, which made it worth
responsible for the sums paid, and the about 2,500/. a year. The committee
latter was not. If, then, the duties and recommended a similar establishment for
great responsibility of the treasurer were the Treasurer of the Navy; but at the same
thrown upon the paymaster, who had only time it was understood, that, if that office
1,0001. a year, he did not think it could were held along with another of public
be expected that those duties would be and active employment to which no salary
efficiently performed. For these reasons, was attached, it should continue to receive
he was not prepared to say that the office the full salary. When he got it, the salary
of treasurer ought to be abolished, or that was only 3,0001. a year, which was 1,0001.
its duties should be added to those of the less than any of his predecessors in the
paymaster. He did not mean to assert office had received. Now he would admit,
that those duties were such as would that if the two offices-that of Treasurer of
create greater bodily labour or mental the Navy and that of President of the
anxiety than a man could fairly bear, but Board of Trade-were disconnected, there
still the responsibility was very great, was no reason why the former should not
When he accepted the office, he gave be put upon the salary recommended by
security to the extent of his property, the Committee ofFinance;namely, 2,0001.
such as it was. On his entering office, lie a year; but, as the present residence
found several gentlemen there in situations attached to it might more advantageously
which were highly responsible, and he did for the despatch of public business be
not disturb them; but, within the first applied to other uses, and as that, with
year of his office, he found, one fine morn- coals and candles allowed, might be
ing, that he had become legally liable for estimated at about 7001. a year, he would
a sum of between 30,0001. and 40,0001. add 5001. a year to the 2,0001., thus
One gentleman connected with the office bringing it on a level with the office of
went off to America with 25,0001. of the paymaster-general to the Forces. The
public money, and another soon after hon. member for Aberdeen was anxious
became a defaulter to the amount of to know from what funds this additional
10,0001.; on the discovery of which that expence to the country was to be derived;
unfortunate person put a period to his and he seemed disposed to save it out of
existence. These were large sums; and the whole or part of the salaries which
for these, though he had nothing to do appeared to him useless. Now, he would
with the appointment of those parties, he tell the hon. member, that if he could lay
had become legally liable. Would it, his hand on any useless office, he was very
after this, be said that the office of well disposed to abolish it, without any
Treasurer of the Navy was not one of con- reference to the proposed regulation. The
siderable responsibility ? To unite it with government had shown its disposition to
that of paymaster of the Navy was, he abolish useless offices, in their recent
thought, wholly out of the question, regulations with respect to the boards of
Formerly, the treasurer was in the receipt Customs and Excise. In the same spirit
of immense sums from the profits on the of reduction, they had not filled up a
money which was allowed. to be in his vacancy which had occurred in the
hands; but, subsequently, those profits Treasury board, which still remained un-
were taken away, and a salary of 4,0001. filled, and for this reason,-that they were
a year allowed instead. The Committee determined to appoint to no office of
of Finance, in 1817, recommended that which they could not say to parliament,
the office of Treasurer of the Navy should that its duties were necessary to the


i12






1"'T of the Board of Trade.
public service; and, acting on the same
principle, he had no doubt that his right
hon. friend at the head of the commission
of revenue inquiry, would be prepared at
no distant period to propose an additional
saving to the public, by the consolidation
of the boards of Stamps, which were at
present acting independently of each other
in England and Ireland. He would not
say to what extent the reduction might
be made, but he thought it would be a
saving of at least three out of the ten
commissioners. He did not think he had
any thing further to observe on this sub-
ject at present. He would therefore
conclude by repeating what he said last
night-that there was no necessary con-
nexion between the regulation of the office
of Treasurer of the Navy and the vote
before the committee. If the House
should be of opinion that that office was
not necessary, or that it was overpaid,
they would have ample opportunity, in
the course of the session, of declaring that
opinion.
Mr. Tierney expressed a wish that the
vote before the committee should pass
unanimously, in order to mark the sense
which was entertained on all sides, of the
great ability with which the right hon,
gentleman had discharged the important
duties of his office. It was agreed on all
hands that the sum of 5,0001. a year was
not an over-payment for discharging the
offices of President of the Board of Trade
and Treasurer of the Navy. He could by
no means concur with those who thought
that the office of Treasurer of the Navy
should be abolished. It was an office of
very old standing, of considerable public
importance, and of great personal respon-
sibility to the holder. He had held the
office, and, speaking from the recollection
of twenty-three years back, he could
assure the committee that it was by no
means a sinecure. On the contrary, it
was one which required no inconsiderable
degree of care and attention. Since that
time, he was aware that its duties had
been considerably increased by the atten-
tion required to the payment of money
under seamen's wills. When he held the
office, the business was not so great as to
occupy the whole of his time, though he
did attend for some time every day; but
since then the business, he understood,
was considerably increased. The com-
mittee might judge of the responsibility
of the situation, when he informed them,
that for five years after he left it, he did
VOL. XV.


APRIL 7, 1826.


[114


not get his quietus from it, so as to be
released from all farther liability, though
all his accounts were found quite correct;
and had he died in the interim, his
property would have been still liable.
Looking to the nature of the duties of the
office, one of the last things in his mind
would be to think of its abolition; but it
would be also one of the last things he
could think of, to place at the disposal of
government two situations, one of 5,0001.
and another of 3,0001. a year. Some time
ago, when this and other offices were
under the consideration of the Committee
of Finance, it was clearly understood that
there should be kept up some sinecures
and offices with high salaries to which
no great labour was attached, to be
given to privy councillors holding high
offices which were not well paid. Thus,
the person filling the office of the Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade was to have
the treasurership of the Navy, or some
such office in addition. When the Board
of Control was first established, its chief
officers were without fixed salaries, but
they were selected from amongst those
who held other situations with consider-
able salaries, but not requiring great
personal labour. When, in 1793, the
charter of the East India company was
renewed, and the Board of Control re-
appointed, a salary of 2,0001. a year was
given to the president, and that situation
was held by Mr. Dundas, along with the
treasurership of the Navy; and it could
not be denied that he discharged the
duties of both efficiently. Now, it appeared
to him that the person holding the office
of Treasurer of the Navy might find a
considerable portion of time to devote to
other public duties. When he held the
office he attended the privy council meet-
ings during the whole of the trial of
general Picton ; and he did so, because he
thought that being liberally paid for hold-
ing one office which did not occupy all
his time, he was in some degree bound to
devote the time he had to spare to other
public business of the country. Instead
of making the two offices separate, he
would suggest that 2,000/. a year should
be added to the salary of Treasurer of the
Navy, when that office was held by the
President of the Board of Trade. He
thought the duties of the two could be
efficiently performed by the right hon.
gentleman who at present held them. If,
however, the right hon. gentleman would
declare-and he would take his word for
I






115] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Salary of the President [116
that, as he would for any thing else-that intendence of that department. Whether
he was not able efficiently to discharge from his not having that capacity of mind
the duties of both offices together, let him which the discharge of such duties un-
state that, and then let some other course doubtedly required, or from whatever
be taken. As to abolishing the office, he other cause, he confessed he did feel
thought it was out of the question ; but considerable hardship arising out of the
he thought that the person holding both union of the two offices of President of
should be liberally paid by the country. the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the
He did not concur with those who thought Navy. He felt not only the difficulty at-
that they should first find out where the tendant upon a due discharge of the
increased salary was to come from before duties of both, but the anxiety which
it was voted ; because it was but justice proceeded from the great pecuniary re-
that no efficient public servant should be sponsibility which attached to one of those
without full remuneration for his services, offices; the weight of which was, in no
In conclusion he would repeat his sug- inconsiderable degree, augmented by the
gestion, that 2,0001. a year should be duties arising from the frequent complaints
added to the salary of the Treasurer of from the Navy office, the Victualling office,
the Navy, when that office was held by and other departments of the public ser-
the President of the Board of Trade. vice connected with it. He declared that,
Mr. Huskisson said, that in the peculiar united as those offices were in him, he
situation in which he was placed, it could could not satisfy his mind that the duties
not be expected that he should offer any of the treasurership of the Navy were, so
opinion as to the amount of compensation far as he was concerned, duly and ade-
which should be given to the holder of the quately performed. He had a paymaster
offices which he had the honour to fill. on whom he placed the greatest reliance;
Upon that point, therefore, he would offer and he had often asked himself what he
no remark. He rose thus early to express could do if he were deprived of the as-
to the committee his grateful feeling at distance of that most useful and merito-
the very kind sense which hon. members rious individual. Another person might
had been pleased to express of the manner be appointed to supply his place, of
in which he had discharged his public whom he might know nothing, and
duties, and to say that he would humbly whose assistance would be of no avail.
endeavour so to discharge them as to de- There were occasions when it was abso-
serve in some degree the approbation he lutely necessary that the navy paymaster
had received. He also was relieved from should be a man of experience and talent.
the necessity of. saying any thing relative In time of war the requisites for that
to what some gentlemen called an useless office were of no ordinary character, and
office, the treasurership of the Navy. it was necessary that the utmost confidence
After what had been stated by his right should be placed in the individual who
hon. friend near him, and by the right hon. held the office at such a juncture. He
gentleman opposite, it was scarcely neces- would therefore put it to the House, whe-
sary to add, that the business of that de- their it would not be hard if, by any chance,
apartment had very considerably increased, he should be deprived of the assistance of
as well as the importance of the duties the present paymaster, a stranger who
connected with it, since the transfer to it might be totally unacquainted with the
of the management of seamen's wills. It natureoftheappointmentshouldbe placed
was quite erroneous to suppose that the in the situation, while he (Mr. Huskisson)
business of that office was a mere matter i would be held responsible for the due per-
of paying money. So far from that, the formance of its duties? If such should
Treasurer of the Navy was called on to ever be the case, he could only hope that
exercise his discretion in the instance of the situation was properly filled; but he
every demand made on him for money. certainly could not answer for the cor-
He was obliged to sift the grounds of each rectness of an individual of whom he had
claim, and to decide on the merits of the known nothing. He protested to the
applicant. With so many branches of committee, that if any event were to de-
public duty to be performed the Bank prive him of the services of the gentleman
could not be expected to execute them, who at present was paymaster of the Navy,
or to exercise any discretion on the dif- it would become a serious question, whe-
ferent cases submitted to the consideration their he would not rather resign his own
of whoever might be placed in the super- situation than incur the pecuniary respon-






117] of the Board of Trade.
sibility and solicitude necessarily attend-
ant upon a fresh appointment.-If he had
succeeded in making himself thus far un-
derstood, his observations would go fully
to answer the argument of the right hon.
gentleman opposite. He was sure the
committee must entirely agree with him,
that the individual who had other weighty
and important duties to perform, ought
not to be loaded with the additional bur-
then of such an office as Treasurer of the
Navy. In answer to what had fallen from
the right hon. gentleman, with reference
to whether or not he had time enough to
discharge the duties of both employment,
he certainly could not reply that he had
not time enough ; but he could most truly
declare, that, to whatever cause it might
be owing, he was not able to do the duties
of both offices with that satisfaction to his
own feelings, with which he thought every
public duty ought to be performed. Be-
yond question, the country was fully en-
titled to his best services, and to all his ser-
vices; but, so long as he remained unable
to divest himself of the feelings to which
he had adverted, he was convinced that it
was any thing rather than a public service
to continue in possession of both offices
without being able adequately to discharge
the duties attached to them. As to him-
self, the committee would, of course, deal
with him as they pleased; but he trusted
they would not put a responsibility upon
him, to which lie could not fairly attend.
As to the office of Treasurer of the Navy,
it was one in itself perfectly agreeable,
provided he could devote due attention to
its duties. The patronage belonging to
it was, of course, extremely desirable.
There was nothing in the character of the
office that could be considered repulsive.
It had been held by persons of the highest
station in public life, and therefore it could
not but be gratifying to his feelings to
hold a similar employment, were the mat-
ter to be exclusively considered in that
point of view. With regard to the pre-
sidency of the Board of Trade, he had
laboured to the utmost of his power to
discharge the duties of that office with
advantage to the public (hear, hear!], nor
was he at any time sparing of his best
exertions; but, in fully discharging the
duties of that office he could not but more
or less neglect those of the treasurership of
the Navy. The right hon. gentleman op-
posite had told the committee, that when
he held that office he contrived to do other
duties of a public nature. Doubtless, a


APRIL 7, 1826.


[ 11


man of his powers and diligence was ca-
pable of holding such an employment
with advantage to the public, and also to
discharge other duties of importance ; but
this could not be accepted as a proof that
the burthensome duties at the Board of
Trade were compatible with those at the
Navy office. The further consideration
of this question he would now leave in
the hands of the House, so far as he was
personally concerned. The present pro-
position was an arrangement respecting
himself which was not of his own seeking.
Whatever it was the pleasure of the House
to do in the matter, it was not for him to
offer any opinion ; but, before he sat down,
he begged to repeat, that if the situation
of paymaster in the office became vacant,
he did not think that he would continue
an hour longer in the situation of trea-
surer, and incur the responsibility of ap-
pointing a new paymaster [hear, hear].
Mr. Calcraft observed, upon the im-
posing manner in which the chancellor of
the Exchequer and his right hon. col-
leagues always magnified the business,
and exaggerated the responsibility of any
of the chief officers of government. They
spoke with such feeling of the pain and
anxiety belonging to public appointments,
that it really seemed strange, taking their
own representations, that they were ever
able to persuade any men to undertake
such a burthen of care and restlessness.
Was it indeed a fact, that these distin-
guished posts were forced upon unwilling
individuals ; that honour was thrust upon
them; and that, instead of large salaries
and small duties being greedily caught at
by hungry expectants, they were thrown
back upon those who offered them, with a
sneer ? He apprehended, however, judg-
ing from experience, that neither the
chancellor of the Exchequer, nor the noble
earl at the head of his majesty's councils,
was ever obliged to beat up for recruits,
and to offer a bounty for the acceptance
of a place. The right ion. gentleman had
said a great deal of the excellence of his
paymaster and of the misfortune he should
sustain if that useful officer were to die;
but did he mean to say, that there was
nobody, second or third, in the depart-
ment, capable of discharging the duties of
the situation. He could not imagine how
any difficulty of the sort anticipated could
arise. It seemed much more likely that
ministers were anxious to uphold and de-
fend a place which they had promised to
some officious dependent. That he sin-






119] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Salary of the President [120
cerely believed was the long and the short behalf of the President of the Board of
of the business. A right hon. friend had Trade. He did conceive that it was with
said, that five years had elapsed before a view to bring forward more convincing
his accounts were finally settled; but it arguments that the discussion had been
was well known, that the arrears were now deferred. But he now saw that there
inconsiderable. He, and those who were other reasons which influenced the
usually acted with him, did not wish the chancellor of the Exchequer in wishing to
office to be abolished; but if the treasurer- postpone the measure. No doubt the
ship of the Navy were separated, theywere right hon. gentleman did not wish to press
anxious that it should not be connected his motion last night, because, among
with a seat in parliament. At that time other reasons, the opposite side of the
of day, and in the present temper of the House was not so well attended as he
people, it was not to be borne, that could have wished. What was the real
another placeman should find his way into motive of the chancellor of the Exchequer
the House of Commons. When the in bringing forward the present motion,
chancellor of the Exchequer held the two on the main principle of which both sides
offices of Treasurer of the Navy, and of the House concurred? Why, that
vice president of the Board of Trade, it under the plea of the high character and
had never been hinted, that the duties of acknowledged merits of the President of
the one interfered with the other ; and it the Board of Trade, he wished to have a
could not be too often stated, that this situation to dispose of to some one of his
was not a fit time to add to the pecuniary supporters. If the single proposition of
burthens of the public, for the sake of re- adding to the salary of the President of
living the official burthens of the servants the Board of Trade were alone to be dis-
of the public. The sum in dispute was, cussed he did not think there would be any
indeed, small, but the principle was im- difference of opinion ; because the merits
portant. The chancellor of the Ex- of that right hon. gentleman were equally
chequer had said, with apparent self-con- acknowledged by both sides of the House.
gratulation, that he could have made out But when the measure came fettered as it
a very good case in defence of places did by another question, and one which
which, in his heart, he was satisfied ought was most obnoxious to entertain, it
to be abolished. Let his sincerity that naturally followed that it met with op-
night be tried by,this test, and hereafter he position. The right hon. gentleman for
might tell the House, that he had been whom the vote was proposed might thank
driven to make out a good case in defence his colleagues for having brought forward
of the separation of treasurership of the the measure in that objectionable way.
Navy; although in his heart he was sa- Mr. Curwen said, he was favourable to
tisfied that it ought to be combined with the proposition so far as it went to benefit
the presidency of the Board of Trade. the right hon. the President of the Board
The right hon. gentleman had taken great of Trade; but lie must object to the mea-
credit to himself for giving up one of the sure with which it was accompanied.
lords of the Treasury; but he had forgot- Sir M. IV. Ridley admitted, that the
ten one little fact; namely, that the lord great servants of the Crown ought to be
of the Treasury had not been thrown over- fully remunerated, and that no parsimony
board by the rest of the crew, until after could be more injudicious, than to reduce
ministers had been defeated on the ques- their salaries below what their talents and
tion for abolishing two lords of the Ad- duties merited. A thousand a year might
miralty, and when they were expecting be too little for the Treasurer of the Navy;
anotherdiscomfiture. Unless some pledge but, if the amount were increased, it
should be given, that the situation of ought to be understood that the occupant
Treasurer of the Navy was not to be at the of the place should not also have a seat
disposal of the government, with a view in parliament. He did not wish to vote
to increase its patronage, he must vote against the resolution in favour of the
against the original proposition. He felt, President of the Board of Trade, but he
he owned, some little surprise at the differ- might be reduced to that alternative, if
ent tone which the right hon. gentleman the latter part of the question was forced
on the other side assumed since last night. on in connection with it.
He had reason to imagine that arguments Sir Isaac Coin contended, that the
would have been produced on the present treasurership of the Navy was no sinecure.
occasion to strengthen the proposition on It could be no sinecure, where seven







121] of he Board of Trade.
millions a year passed through the hands o
the treasurer.
Mr. Denison said, he was quite willing
to vote 5,0001. a year to the President of
the Board to Trade, but said, he could
not consent to increase the power and pa-
tronage of government. The chancellor
of the Exchequer had mentioned two de-
faulters to the extent of 35,0001. while he
was Treasurer of theNavy. Now,hewished
to ask whether the money hadbeen recover-
ed from the principals or their securities?-
whether the public had lost it, or whether
the right hon. gentleman had been called
upon to pay any part of it ? If the pub-
lic had been the losers, nothing was
gained by the vaunted responsibility of
the Treasurer of the Navy; or rather, as
he was paid merely for this responsibility,
the public was out of pocket his whole
salary, as well as the money with which
the defaulters had made away.
The Chancellor o'the Exchequer replied,
that the first defaulter had made off with
25,0001. He escaped to the United States,
whither he was followed, and by threats
(since nothing more could be there done)
frightened out of all he had left; namely,
about 15,0001. The sureties were called
upon for the remainder, but still the pub-
lic lost something. The other case re-
garded a sum of about 6,0001., and all
that was recovered was the amount for
which the sureties were bound. A bill
had since been brought in to prevent the
recurrence of such evils; and if he had
not been able to satisfy the lords of the
Treasury, that the loss was not occasioned
by any fault or carelessness on his part,
he should have been responsible for the
sum deficient. He had, however, con-
vinced the lords of the Treasury that he
had not been at all remiss, and accord-
ingly he was not called upon for the de-
ficiency. Indeed, as he was not in fault,
to have compelled him to pay would have
been most unjust.
Mr. Denison asked, what became of the
responsibility so much talked of, when
the right hon. gentleman had not been
called upon to pay the money ?
Mr. Huskisson observed, that the money
was lost by no fault of his right hon.
friend.
Mr. Abercromby expressed his regret
that this proposition had been brought
forward. He had the most sincere re-
spect for the right hon. gentleman, and a
high sense of his services to the public ;
and it was distressing, that this salary


APRIL 7, 1826. [122
should be proposed in a shape which corn
pulled gentlemen to oppose it on public
grounds. It was unfortunate, that the
popularity which the President of the
Board of Trade had so justly acquired in
the discharge of his duties to the public,
should be exposed to risk by a proposition
like this. A great deal had been said
about the incompatibility of the office of
President of the Board of Trade with
that of Treasurer of the Navy. He had
no personal knowledge on the subject;
but from all that he had heard about the
matter it appeared to him that there
was no incompatibility between them,
and that both offices might be held and
adequately managed by one person. The
denial of this was one of those official
fallacies which were often put forward
and defended by ministers. The only
argument on the ministerial side which
had made any impression on him was the
declaration of the right hon. President of
the Board of Trade, that if he lost his
present paymaster he could no longer
retain the treasurership of the Navy. But,
where could be the difficulty of finding
another person in the office fully ac-
quainted with its duties in all their de-
tails ? And then as to the responsibility,
the answer to the question put by the
hon. member for Surrey put an end to
all ground of dispute on that head. A
loss had been suffered by the public in
the office of the Treasurer of the Navy,
and the chancellor of the Exchequer,
who was treasurer at the time, was not
called upon to make up the loss, because
it had not happened through his fault.
So that the responsibility amounted
merely to this: that the treasurer must
make up any deficiency that might arise
from his own dishonesty or gross negli-
gence. The responsibility was, there.
fore, another mere official fallacy. The
treasurer had only to keep clear of any
personal blame; and therefore the re-
sponsibility was nothing. But they had
the advantage of experience on the sub-
ject. Lord Melville had held the office
of Treasurer of the Navy along with that
of Secretary of State. To be sure, lord
Melville had the services of his right hon.
friend as his under secretary; but then
the President of the Board of Trade had
the assistance of the vice-president. The
office of President of the Board of Trade
was a modern one; and yet the officer
was allowed to sit in parliament. The
object, in short, appeared to be, to make






123] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Salary of the President [124
a separate Treasurer of the Navy, in order Board of Trade. Certain he was, as that
to get another placeman's vote in par- the Speaker now sat in the chair, that if
liament. If they were bound in fairness the House resolved to give the salary to
to grant two new salaries, he would say the President of the Board of Trade, but
that they were no less bound on behalf resolved also not to give it in a manner
of the public to take care that the in- inconsistent with the principles of the
fluence of the Crown was not unduly constitution, ministers would come down
increased. Such was their duty. He with a proposition which would receive
hoped, therefore, that they would not the unanimous approbation of the House.
pass a bill without providing that, in case Sir John Newport recommended the
it was found necessary that the Treasurer adoption of one of two courses-either to
of the Navy and the President of the unite the treasurership of the Navy with
Board of Trade, after the settlement of the office of President of the Board of
salaries upon each, should sit in the Trade, giving an additional sum of 2,0001.
House, two offices of less importance per annum to the individual who held
should be struck out of the list of those, those situations, or to extinguish the
the holders of which were at present en- place of treasurer altogether, and allow
titled to seats. He spoke from a sincere the duties to be performed by the pay-
dread of a principle which had in better master of the Navy. He felt the un-
times appeared to him to gain upon pleasant situation in which the committee
them. There was the office of vice- were placed, and entertained no desire to
treasurer of Ireland. He was not inti- say any thing which could by possibility
lately acquainted with these matters, appear to impeach their deservedly high
and what the practical duties of that opinion of the great zeal and singular
office were he did not even now compre- talents of the right lion. individual in
hend, except that the holder had to sign question. He would gladly be relieved
his name occasionally in Ireland; but so from the dilemma of appearing to under-
seldom that he was most commonly to be value those talents, or compromising the
found in this country. Indeed, lie had interests of the public by submitting to
little scruple in saying, that if that officer an undue extension of the influence of
had any effective duties to perform, they the Crown.
must, from all that he could observe, be Mr. Secretary Canning said, that what-
deputed to a vice of the vice-treasurer, ever arrangements theHlouse might finally
It appeared to him that there was no adopt with respect to other offices, lie
necessity for his presence any where, saw no difficulty like that felt by the right
except in that House, where his vote was hon. gentleman opposite, in coming to a
occasionally useful to ministers. This decision upon the present question, which
practice appeared to him to be a modern only respected the salary of the Presidcnt
innovation, and to demand the serious of the Board of Trade. To vote for that
consideration of the House. He thought salary would not compromise the right
that the public ought to be protected of any gentleman to call for an inquiry
from the continual aggregation of influ- into the office of Treasurer of the Navy.
ence among the members of this House, He denied that this measure would in-
and that a bill ought to be brought in, crease the influence of the Crown. It
which, by incorporating the office of Pre- might be right or wrong for the Treasurer
sident of the Board of Trade with that of the Navy to sit in that House; but it
of chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, was not matter of course that the two
or Treasurer of the Navy, should afford offices should be held by the same person.
an adequate compensation for the ser- Lord Melville had held the office of Pre-
vices of the right hon. gentleman. This sident of the Board of Control with the
would be reasonable and just, and the treasurership ofthe Navy; lord Harrowby,
only way in which the vote could be the right hon. gentleman opposite, he
given, so as to make it creditable to the himself, and the late Mr. Sheridan, had
right lion. gentleman. He trusted, there- each held the treasurership of the Navy,
fore, that the chairman would be allowed without holding the presidency of the
to report progress; and ask leave to sit Board of Trade. During all that time
again, in the hope that, in the interval, it had never been made a question that
something might be agreed upon which the Treasurer of the Navy ought not to
would prove satisfactory to the public, be allowed to sit in that House. He
and agrceublc to the President of the maintained that it was perfectly incorrect






107] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
limited to a single point. He certainly
did not feel prepared to support a motion
for a committee on a rambling inquiry
how they could obtain 5,0001. by reduc-
tion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
the question he had brought before the
committee was, what ought the President
of the Board of Trade to receive? He
thought the two offices ought not to be
connected; and that the question as to
the salary of the Treasurer of the Navy
ought not, therefore, to be discussed, un-
less it could be shewn that they were ne-
cessarily connected with each other. He
had no objection to postpone the consi-
deration of this motion, though he did not
see any necessity for so doing. He would
only observe, that when Mr. Rose held
the office of Treasurer of the Navy, he re-
ceived a higher salary than was at present
given. For the last six years that he held
the office he received 4,0001.; and when
Mr. Tierney held it he received a similar
sum.
The motion was then postponed till to-
morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, April 7.
JURIES IN INDIA BILL.] The report
of the committee on this bill being brought
up,
Mr. Hume complained that the bill, as
it now stood, did not sufficiently define
the powers of the judges in India to select
native subjects to sit upon juries. This
would be considered a great evil by all
who reflected that the prejudices of the
Europeans in India had been carried to
such a height, that there had been a de-
claration made by some of that class, that
they never would convict any white man
of murder, if his victim were a black.
He wished to see the practice established
of composing juries of an equal number of
Europeans and natives, in cases where the
natives were the objects of trial; and he
hoped that the president of the Board of
Control would consent to a provision in the
present bill, that the judges should report
to this country their practice upon the
selection of natives upon juries.
Mr. Wynn said, that the proposition of
the hon. member for Aberdeen was un-
questionably good in principle, but the
selection of natives to sit upon juries
would, in many situations, be found most
inconvenient, and even impossible, in


Scilly Islands. 108
practice. He lamented most strongly the
nature and the degree of the prejudices
existing in India against the native in-
habitants, which prevented the enactment
of such measures as the hon. member
proposed. The prejudices were much
less strong in the national service than
in that of the company, and he had
known instances where persons, rejected
from the latter, had been admitted into the
former, and had risen to the highest rank.
Complaints had certainly been made from
many quarters against the non-admission
of half castes upon juries, but he had re-
ceived no such complaints against the ex-
clusion of the natives. He should be
happy to follow the suggestions of the
hon. member whenever an opportunity
should offer.
The report was agreed to.

SCILLY ISLANDS-PETITION OF THE
INHABITANTS RESPECTING SUBSCRIP-
TION FOR THEIR RELIEF.] Mr. Hume
presented a Petition from the Inhabitants
of the Scilly Islands, setting forth,
That the population of the different
islands of Scilly amounts in the aggregate
to nearly three thousand souls; that the
greater part of the inhabitants of Scilly
have long been exposed to severe distress,
(which at the present time is frightfully
increased), arising generally from the
want of employment, and particularly
from the very peculiar circumstances
under which the islands are held from the
Crown, whence result the absence of any
due form of civil government and admi-
nistration of the laws; the evils to public
morals occasioned by such want of go-
vernment, and the misery inevitably at-
tendant on the deficiency of labour, and
of parochial or other funds for the relief
of the indigent and helpless; that about
seven years since, when the cry of the
numerous starving families of the different
islands had made itself heard throughout
the parent isle, a large subscription, aided
by a considerable grant from his majesty's
government, was raised in England for
the relief of the sufferers, and for pro-
viding them with permanent employ; and
had that subscription been judiciously ex-
pended, it would have gone far to prevent
the possibility of the recurrence of ex-
treme distress, but that, unhappily, no
solid and permanent benefit has been re-
ceived by any class of persons on the
islands from that or any other source, nor
are the petitioners aware that any public







125] of the Board of rradc.
to talk of it as a sinecure office. It was
not so in any one sense of the word. He
did not dispute the assertion of the right
lion. gentleman opposite, that the duties
did not take up more than an hour a-day
of his time when he held it: but taking
the fact as the right hon. gentleman had
asserted it to be, he must still consider
this as a most inaccurate way of viewing
it. Surely it would not be contended,
that, because a great banker only at-
tended his establishment for an hour
a-day to inspect accounts which were
prepared for him by the clerks, his re-
sponsibility was to be classed with the
attendance, for the same period of time,
by one of the servants of the establish-
ment. From his own experience, how-
ever, he could say, that he did not find
an hour a-day sufficient for the business
of that office. It was true that it fell to
him in times of unusual difficulty, and in
which the most anxious and undivided
attention was required to the duties.
Still, if the duties were ever so small,
that was not the fair way of considering
the subject. It was a rule in all well-
ordered governments, that the time which
was not required for the duties of any
particular office should be at the disposal
of those governments. Distribute the
business and functions as they might,
there would be still left a considerable
portion not assignable to any particular
department, but which it was but just
that government should be enabled to
accomplish by the assistance of those who
held offices of less efficiency. He could
not speak now to the exact rate of in-
crease in the public business, but he pro-
nounced it to be almost overwhelming in
every department. With regard to his
own office, he could only say, that he did
not spare himself; but certain it was,
that no man who held it could call one
hour of his time his own. He contended,
that in the best times the office of Trea-
surer of the Navy had not been deemed
incompatible with a seat in the House,
whether held with another office or not.
It was now agreed that the President of
the Board of Trade was entitled to a
salary, and it was not assumed that the
treasurership of the Navy could be abo-
lished. He objected to the instance of
the vice-treasurership of Ireland being
assumed as an increase of the influence
of the Crown. That office only replaced
the chancellorship of the Irish Exchequer,
whose functions were abolished by par-


APFRI 7, 1826. [126
liament. As to the: salary to the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade, it was a
question which stood on its own merits.
It was, in short, nothing more than re-
storing the salary which had been taken
away by Mr. Burke's bill, and that upon
circumstances so entirely opposite, as to
furnish a complete justification for the
measure. The salary had been taken
away because the office was then appa-
rently useless. It was now proposed to
restore it, because the office had become
one of the most effective in the state.
There was no other principle involved in
the question, and to vote for the salary
would not in the slightest degree preclude
any gentleman from going into the discus-
sion of the usefulness or the emoluments
of any other office.
Sir George Hill said, that he felt con-
fident the committee would be disposed
to hear from him a few observations on
the nature and duties of the vice-trea-
surer's office, which he had the honour of
holding. That office had been so par-
ticularly alluded to by the hon. member
for Calne, and the necessity of it called
in question a short time ago by the hon.
member for Montrose, that without in-
terrupting the course of the present de-
bate he begged leave to observe, that he
was most anxious for an inquiry into the
nature and extent of the duties of his
office, and the efficiency with which they
were performed; and lie would venture to
affirm that they were amongst the most
important of those not attached to a ca-
binet situation. In 1816, the office of
vice-treasurer was established, when the
Exchequers of the two countries were
consolidated and united, with a salary of
2,0001. annexed. The duties were then
comparatively light, with those which had
been since thrown upon that office. In
1822, an act was passed enabling the
treasurer to make reforms in the Exche-
quer and military offices of Ireland. In
pursuance of this act, the duties of the
offices of Auditor-general and the clerk
of the Pells in Ireland had been transfer-
red to the vice-treasurer. He had like-
wise had additional duties thrown on him
by becoming, under treasury minute, pur-
suant to said act of parliament, paymaster-
general of the forces in Ireland, and a
public accountant before the commis-
sioners of Audit at Somerset-house; and
he must beg leave to add, that all these
duties were now performed by an estab-
lishment of officers and clerks, at an ex-






127] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
pense to the public of 7,5001. which, be-
fore these transfers and changes, cost the
country 37,0001. a-year. This was not
the fit occasion for further observation
on the subject of his office, but he courted
and challenged inquiry.
Mr. Bernal, in allusion to the respon-
sibility said to be attached to the office
ofTreasureroftheNavy, remarked, that he
did not perceive in what manner the public
were protected from the embezzlement or
mal-appropriation of the money. The per-
son who filled that situation was under no
sort of responsibility. The office might
be entirely abolished by giving a small
additional salary to the paymaster of the
Navy, who could fulfil the duties con-
jointly. He contended, that ministers
had made out no case to satisfy the House
that the two offices could not be efficiently
filled by one person for an adequate re-
muneration. In granting this salary of
5,0001. the committee ought to have a dis-
tinct pledge from the members of his ma-
jesty's government, that they were de-
termined to pursue a system of rigid
economy in the public expenditure.
Mr. Calcrqft rose to propose what his
hon. and learned friend had suggested in
an earlier stage of the debate, that the
chairman should report progress, and ask
leave to sit again. By this course, mi-
nisters would have time till Monday to re-
consider the proposition they had sub-
mitted to the House.
Sir F. Ommaney urged the propriety of
the proposed salary, and defended the
office of Treasurer of the Navy.
The committee divided on Mr. Cal-
craft's amendment: For the motion 4 4;
Against it 83; Majority 39. On our re-
turn to the gallery,
Mr. Hume was speaking on the amend-
ment which he had proposed on the pre-
ceding evening. He said he had been in-
duced to withdraw that amendment, in
order to afford to ministers a space of
twenty-four hours, to reflect upon what
they must see was the unanimous opi-
nion of the House. He had hoped that
his withdrawing that amendment would
have induced them to adopt the alteration
which it recommended; and, although he
regretted to find that it had not produced
that effect, he was more convinced than
ever that the course he had suggested
was the proper one to pursue. He was
sorry to see neither the right hon. Secre-
tary for the Foreign Department, nor the
right hon. member for Knaresborough


Salary of the President


[128


(Mr. Tierney), in their places; because he
thought that, from the account which
each of those gentlemen had given of the
duties of the office now under discussion,
it became more than ever necessary that
an inquiry should be made into it. His
own opinion was decidedly, that the
Treasurer of the Navy ought, under no
circumstances, to be a cabinet councillor,
being as he was, merely an officer of ac-
count. For the reasons he had given, he
thought an inquiry ought now to be in-
stituted, whether the office could not be
dispensed with altogether, or so modified
that another individual might be enabled
to hold it, and that the proposed salary of
5,0001.a-year might besavedto thecountry.
He never heard so lame an apology set
up for any public measure as had been
set up that evening for the present pro-
position. He was certain that, on an in-
quiry into the means of reducing the pre-
sent expenses of the government, he could
show, that in the Exchequer alone a re-
duction of 12,0001. could be effected.
He could not consent to pass the vote
for this naked grant alone. The whole
subject appeared to him to stand in need
of inquiry. As such was his opinion, he
felt himself bound to move an amend-
ment which appeared to him to be free
from all objection. His amendment would
be to this effect:-" That it is the opinion
of this committee, that a salary of 5,0001.
should be attached to the office of Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade; but that it is
expedient that an inquiry should be insti-
tuted, to ascertain if any, and what, alter-
ation can be made in the office and salary
of the Treasurer of the Navy."
Mr. Maberly seconded the amendment.
Mr. 2'. Wilson said, that if it had been
necessary, he should have been ready to
second this amendment, which seemed to
him exactly to point out what ought to be
done. He much regretted this discussion,
which he thought mighthave been avoided;
and he could not help declaring that, in
his opinion, the House had been placed
in a cruel situation by the conduct of
ministers. He fully agreed, that the du-
ties of the President of the Board of Trade
were efficiently and honourably discharged;
and he believed there was not the slightest
difference of opinion as to the propriety
of granting the sum of 5,0001. as a salary
to the right hon. gentleman who now so
ably filled that office. The only question
was, whether the grant ought not to be
accompanied with some condition respect-






129] of the Board of Trade.
ing the office of Treasurer of the Navy.
Into that office, however, ministers re-
fused all inquiry, and he should therefore,
feel bound to oppose the grant; which he
did with the utmost reluctance, on account
of the right hon. gentleman to whom it
was to be made. He thought the minis-
ters ought to have let this matter
remain over until they had enabled the
House to ascertain whether it was neces-
sary to continue the office of Treasurer of
the Navy, and what ought to be the
amount of salary paid to that officer.
Mr. Hudson Gurney said, it had been
remarked that the proposed measure had
foundnone but official defenders. Now this
being an arrangement of office, gentlemen
connected with the departments of go-
vernment might be the only adequate
judges; but, it appeared to him of vast
importance, that the presidentship of the
Board of Trade should, in this great
commercial country, be a cabinet office,
and one to which a member of the cabinet
should be able to devote his time; and
the more so, as in the class from which
cabinet ministers were, for the most part,
taken, there could be very few habitually
conversant with the details of commerce.
It was allowed, that very great sums
passed yearly through the office of the
Treasurer of the Navy ; and that, when
join d to the presidentship of the Board
of Trade, it was not-possible that the
treasurer should give them an adequate
attention. The abolishing the office, and
transferring its duties to the paymaster,
did not appear to him any great economy ;
as in such case, the salary of the first
clerk must amount to nearly the same
thing. He did not think, considering the
liability of the treasurer as a public ac-
countant, that the proposed reduced re-
muneration was an extravagant one, and
the only argument against the arrangement
which he had heard pressed was, that
there had been two Whig treasurers of
the Navy, one of whom got through his
business in an hour, and the other never
meddled with it all.
Mr. Maberly observed, that the subject
was one of the utmost importance, as it
not only involved the question, whether
there should be salaries to two efficient
officers, but whether the influence of the
Crown should be increased in parliament
by the admission of two ministers instead
of one to seats in that House. Such a
question ought not to be hastily decided,
and he should therefore object to making
VOL, XV.


any grant until some inquiry had been
instituted.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
that thehon.member for Abingdon seemed
to imagine that the most important part of
the subject was that which related to the
admission of two officers of the Crown
instead of one to seats in that House.
But surely, if that question was to be
agitated, the proposed committee was not
the place in which it should be discussed.
The amendment ought not to be intro-
duced into this discussion, as the two
offices were not necessarily connected
with each other. He did not think it
followed, because ministers declined to
mix up these two questions, which were
in their nature so distinct, that therefore
they intended to refuse inquiry altogether.
He thought the amendment of the hon.
member for Aberdeen irrelevant, and
should therefore oppose it.
Mr. Baring said, that the difficulty
which the right hon. gentleman suggested
arose entirely from the act of the ministers
themselves. Theyhad united the two offices,
and now they proposed to attach a salary
to one of the offices, while they made no
promise whatever regarding the other.
Nothing gave him greater pain than to
vote against the resolution for granting
compensation to the right hon. the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade; but the
shape in which that resolution was put,
made it impossible for him to consent to
it. There was a strong feeling in the
public mind, that the talents and exertions
of the right hon. gentleman were fully
entitled to compensation, and ministers
had availed themselves of that feeling, to
carry that which he could not designate
otherwise than as a job-almost as decided
and bad a job as had ever been attempted
[hear, hear!]. He trusted, however,
that it would not be allowed to pass
unopposed, but that it would be watched
with the utmost attention through every
stage of its progress, that the public might
see, that while the members of the Oppo-
sition were ready to give every fair com-
pensation to talent and exertion, they were
determined to protect the purity of their
grants, and to effect every possible reduc-
tion. The office of Treasurer of the Navy
had been spoken of as one of responsibility;
but, from a question which, in the course
of this discussion had been put and
answered, it was evident that no personal
responsibility whatever was attached to
the Treasurer of the Navy, in respect of
K


APRIL 7, 1826.


[130






131] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
the immense sums which passed through
his hands. He begged it to be understood,
that he opposed the present resolution,
not as a resolution of compensation for
past meritorious services, but as a prece-
dent for future practice. If he were
mistaken in what he had stated respecting
the office of Treasurer of the Navy, his
mistake afforded an additional reason for
granting the committee of inquiry, since
his ignorance of the duties of that office
might be shared by others, and could not
be dispelled but by the means which a
committee of inquiry could alone supply.
As ministers refused to institute that in-
quiry, all he could do was, to meet their
resolution with the most determined
opposition-an opposition which was di-
rected not against the right hon. the
President of the Board of Trade, but
against the job which was most unjusti-
fiably grafted upon him.
Mr. R. Martin said, he should not have
risen, but to answer the observation of an
hon. gentleman, that none but the mem-
bers of government said a word in favour
of the proposed measure. Now he, for
one, begged leave to say, that he con-
curred in opinion with every one who
had spoken upon the subject of the merits
of the right hon. President of the Board
of Trade, and the propriety of attaching
a more adequate salary to his office. He
also begged leave to say, that he should
vote most conscientiously for the separa-
tion of the two offices. He thought that
separation ought to have taken place
sooner; but he did not feel the less
disposed to give it his support now
that it had been proposed.
The committee divided: Fortheamend-
ment 35; against it 71 ; majority 36;
The original resolution was then agreed
to.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, April 10.
LOCAL PAYMENT OF BANK NOTES.]
The Marquis of Lansdown rose to intro-
duce the bill of which he had given notice
before the adjournment. The object of
it was to make all notes payable at places
different from that in which they were
issued, also payable where issued. It was
not his wish at that time to trouble their
lordships by calling their attention to the
provisions of the bill until after it should
be printed.
The Earl of Lauderdale asked whether


Salary ofthe President


[15S


the noble marquis meant that the bill
should extend to Scotland ?
The Marquis of Lansdoun said, he
certainly intended that Scotland should
be included in the operation of the bill.
The Earl of Lauderdale said, he should
then have occasion to state to their lord-
ships very material reasons why it should
not be so extended. He begged the noble
marquis to recollect, that at that moment
there was a committee sitting to inquire
into the banking system of Scotland.
Now, if that was the case, he thought it
would be more becoming to defer pro-
ceeding with this bill until after that com-
mittee had made its report.
The Marquis of Lansdown said, that the
object of the committee was, to inquire
into the effect of the circulation of small
notes in Scotland and Ireland ; but, what-
ever might be the result of that inquiry,
whether the report should be in favour of,
or against the continuance of small
notes in Scotland it would in no de-
gree affect his view of the subject. If
the result should be the discontinuance
of small notes, then the present bill would
have no effect as to them. If it should
be thought advisable to continue them,
then the bill would be necessary.
The Earl of Lauderdale said, he was
prepared to submit to the committee, that
if the measure proposed by the roble
marquis were adopted, it would destroy
thirty or forty establishments in Scotland.
He spoke in the hearing of those who
knew that banking could not be carried
on in Scotland if the branch banks were
to be suppressed, as they must be if this
bill should pass. He thought that the
noble marquis ought to delay the second
reading, until the evidence to which he
had alluded was before the House.
The Marquis of Lansdown said, he saw
no impropriety in the course he proposed
to pursue. Whether one and two pound
notes were to be suffered in Scotland or
not, he was of opinion that they should
be payable where they were issued. The
noble earl might, if their lordships should
assent to the principle of the bill, propose
in the committee to leave Scotland out of
its operation.
The bill was then read a first time.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, April 10.
SALARY TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE
BOARD Oz TRADE.] The Chancellor of






131] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
the immense sums which passed through
his hands. He begged it to be understood,
that he opposed the present resolution,
not as a resolution of compensation for
past meritorious services, but as a prece-
dent for future practice. If he were
mistaken in what he had stated respecting
the office of Treasurer of the Navy, his
mistake afforded an additional reason for
granting the committee of inquiry, since
his ignorance of the duties of that office
might be shared by others, and could not
be dispelled but by the means which a
committee of inquiry could alone supply.
As ministers refused to institute that in-
quiry, all he could do was, to meet their
resolution with the most determined
opposition-an opposition which was di-
rected not against the right hon. the
President of the Board of Trade, but
against the job which was most unjusti-
fiably grafted upon him.
Mr. R. Martin said, he should not have
risen, but to answer the observation of an
hon. gentleman, that none but the mem-
bers of government said a word in favour
of the proposed measure. Now he, for
one, begged leave to say, that he con-
curred in opinion with every one who
had spoken upon the subject of the merits
of the right hon. President of the Board
of Trade, and the propriety of attaching
a more adequate salary to his office. He
also begged leave to say, that he should
vote most conscientiously for the separa-
tion of the two offices. He thought that
separation ought to have taken place
sooner; but he did not feel the less
disposed to give it his support now
that it had been proposed.
The committee divided: Fortheamend-
ment 35; against it 71 ; majority 36;
The original resolution was then agreed
to.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, April 10.
LOCAL PAYMENT OF BANK NOTES.]
The Marquis of Lansdown rose to intro-
duce the bill of which he had given notice
before the adjournment. The object of
it was to make all notes payable at places
different from that in which they were
issued, also payable where issued. It was
not his wish at that time to trouble their
lordships by calling their attention to the
provisions of the bill until after it should
be printed.
The Earl of Lauderdale asked whether


Salary ofthe President


[15S


the noble marquis meant that the bill
should extend to Scotland ?
The Marquis of Lansdoun said, he
certainly intended that Scotland should
be included in the operation of the bill.
The Earl of Lauderdale said, he should
then have occasion to state to their lord-
ships very material reasons why it should
not be so extended. He begged the noble
marquis to recollect, that at that moment
there was a committee sitting to inquire
into the banking system of Scotland.
Now, if that was the case, he thought it
would be more becoming to defer pro-
ceeding with this bill until after that com-
mittee had made its report.
The Marquis of Lansdown said, that the
object of the committee was, to inquire
into the effect of the circulation of small
notes in Scotland and Ireland ; but, what-
ever might be the result of that inquiry,
whether the report should be in favour of,
or against the continuance of small
notes in Scotland it would in no de-
gree affect his view of the subject. If
the result should be the discontinuance
of small notes, then the present bill would
have no effect as to them. If it should
be thought advisable to continue them,
then the bill would be necessary.
The Earl of Lauderdale said, he was
prepared to submit to the committee, that
if the measure proposed by the roble
marquis were adopted, it would destroy
thirty or forty establishments in Scotland.
He spoke in the hearing of those who
knew that banking could not be carried
on in Scotland if the branch banks were
to be suppressed, as they must be if this
bill should pass. He thought that the
noble marquis ought to delay the second
reading, until the evidence to which he
had alluded was before the House.
The Marquis of Lansdown said, he saw
no impropriety in the course he proposed
to pursue. Whether one and two pound
notes were to be suffered in Scotland or
not, he was of opinion that they should
be payable where they were issued. The
noble earl might, if their lordships should
assent to the principle of the bill, propose
in the committee to leave Scotland out of
its operation.
The bill was then read a first time.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, April 10.
SALARY TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE
BOARD Oz TRADE.] The Chancellor of






1S3] of the Board of Trade.
the Exchequer moved, that the report of
the committee of the whole House on the
Civil List Act be now received.
Mr. Hobhouse said, he would take that
opportunity, before the report was brought
up, to enter his protest against this pro-
ceeding, and to express his astonishment,
that his majesty's ministers should have
chosen that very peculiar time for propos-
ing one of the most uncalled-for acts that
could be conceived-that of making an
unnecessary addition to the burthens of
the country, and to the number of place-
men and pensioners now sitting in the
House of Commons. Every gentleman
must recollect what had fallen from the
chancellor of the Exchequer in the speech
which he had delivered upon introducing
the budget a few weeks ago. He had
declared how much he disliked the patron-
age which, as a minister of the Crown, was
intrusted to his hands. He had talked of
that patronage in a very proper manner,
when he designated it as paltry patron-
age," and assured the House that he
wished to get rid of it. This was what
the right hon. gentleman professed; but
the question was, what did he do ? Why,
in the teeth of his profession, he came
down to the House, and asked, as a matter
of course, that they would split one place-
man into two, and thus make a consider-
able addition to the already too powerful
patronage of the Crown. He did not, on
this, or on any other occasion, wish to
attach a fanciful importance to any ques-
tion. He did not suppose that one addi-
tional placemn would ruin the constitu-
tion, unless it were much deteriorated be-
fore; but he had a right to call on the
chancellor of the Exchequer to assign his
reasons for dividing one place into two.
He knew that some of the poorer bishops
were allowed to hold other offices, to
make up for the deficiency of their annual
revenue, Thus the bishop of Bristol had
been suffered to retain the mastership of
Trinity college, Cambridge, on account
of the smallness of his income. But, did
any one ever hear of a proposal to re-
munerate that bishop, by granting him the
full extent of his income for performing
the duties of one office, while a second
person was employed to do the duties of
the other; thus employing two individuals
to execute that which had previously been
very well done by one? The onus of
proving the necessity of this proceeding
rested with his majesty's ministers. All
that he and his friends had to do was to


object to it. The gentlemen on the other
side of the House were bound to show,
that the duties attached to the office of
Treasurer of the Navy and President of the
Board of Trade, had not been heretofore
efficiently performed by one person. No-
thing of this kind had, however, been as-
serted. The right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Huskisson) did not state that he could
not do the business of both situations.
The right hon. gentleman said, he would
prefer attending solely to the duties which
devolved on the President of the Board of
Trade-that was, to perform the business
of one office, instead of two, with a better
salary; which was natural enough. And
here let it be observed, that he made no
objection to the increase of that right hon.
gentleman's salary. Very far from it.
That was not the question; but whether
they were to have two officers of the
Crown in the House of Commons instead
of one ? His right hon. friend, the mem-
ber for Knaresborough, had told them, on
Friday night, that when he filled the office
of Treasurer of the Navy, in time of war,
he performed the duties adequately, by
devoting one hour each day to that object.
No answer was given to that statement.
It remained uncontradicted. The chan-
cellor of the Exchequer only said, that a
considerable degree of anxious respon.
sibility was attached to the situation, for
which an officer of the Crown ought to be
adequately remunerated. That was what
he understood the right hon. gentleman to
say. Now, he would ask, was the country
to pay 2,5001. a year on account of this
anxious responsibility-not for the duty,
as nothing had been said about that?
They must, if such was the case, come to
inquire what that responsibility was ? The
chancellor of the Exchequer was asked to
define that responsibility. According to
his own showing, he had felt a very great
anxiety to be released by the lords of the
Treasury, when Mr. Tweedie and some
other person had become defaulters. But,
in point of fact, the responsibility alluded
to by the right hon. gentleman was none
at all; because it was found that he was
not in fault, and therefore he stood ab-
solved. Responsibility, according to the
real signification of the word, must mean
the liability of a man's fortune to make
good the deficiencies occasioned by the
running away of any of his underlings.
But, as in the case of Mr. Tweedie, if the
individual who was at the head of an office
was not called upon to make good the


APRIL 10, 1826.


[134






135] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
deficiency occasioned by the malpractices
of his clerks, there was no responsibility.
It appeared to him that there was no ne-
cessity for any responsibility whatever.
He thought the business of the office
might be so arranged, that the public
could not be losers by the rascality or
improper conduct of subaltern agents.
The chancellor of the Exchequer had
stated, that some labour had been added
to the office, in consequence of the ar-
rangement relative to seamen's wills: but
that part of the duty was now provided
for by act of parliament, and the additional
labour had been removed [hear]. If he
was mistaken in this or any other of his
positions, that very circumstance afforded
a reason for granting that inquiry into the
nature and arrangements of the office for
which his hon. friend had called. What
cause, he again demanded, could be as-
signed for proposing this measure at the
present time? He really thought that
in bringing it forward his majesty's minis-
ters had not treated the right hon. gentle-
man fairly. That right hon. gentleman
undoubtedly deserved much of his coun-
try. He had acquired popularity-but
that popularity ought not to be made to
carry weight [hear, hear.]. To ask to
do that which was highly improper, be-
cause the right lion. gentleman had done
some acts which deserved approbation, and
had obtained him considerable popularity,
was not a fit way in which to treat the
House or the right hon. gentleman. He
did not very well know in what way most
effectually to oppose this proposition; but
he believed the best would be, to resist the
bringing up of the report, and thus give
gentlemen an opportunity to enter their
protest against this very objectionable
measure. He did not like to use harsh
words. His hon. friend, the member for
Taunton (Mr. Baring), had, however,
called this a job. He did not know that
it was so; but certainly it looked very like
it. The right hon. Secretary for Foreign
Affairs had told them that these offices
were formerly divided. He knew that;
but they had been since united, and he
could not conceive why they should now
go back to the old system, and employ
two persons to do those duties which were
efficiently performed by one. It was said
to be very hard on his majesty's ministers
to raise objections to this proposition.
For his own part, he thought it was more
hard on his majesty's opposition [a laugh]
to compel them to take this course.


Salary of the President [136
Where was the necessity for dragging them
through the mire, and obliging them to
resist an augmentation of the salary of
the right hon. gentleman in the mode now
proposed ? He thought that his majesty's
ministers had made use of the right hon.
gentleman's character in a way which they
ought not to have done; namely, for the
purpose of carrying an improper measure.
There was not a thinking man in the
country who did not look at the proceed-
ing as an attempt to add to the number of
placemen in that House, and to take an
additional sum of money from the pockets
of the people. While he opposed the
measure, however, let not the right hon.
gentleman think for a moment that that
opposition was directed against him. Quite
the contrary. He should strenuously op-
pose the bringing up of the report, in order
to give those who coincided in opinion
with him, an opportunity of recording
their dissent from this unconstitutional
mode of doing a very unnecessary act.
Lord Glcnorchy said, that the right hon..
the chancellor of the Exchequer had got
much praise, and acquired considerable
popularity, in consequence of his repeated
declarations in favour of economy, and the
anxiety he had shown to lighten the
burthens of the country: but, on the
present occasion, his principles and his
practice appeared to be at variance. He
strongly objected to this measure, because
he conceived that ministerial influence in
that House was more than sufficient at
present. The ministerial benches were
amply supplied with individuals holding
pensions from the Crown. That House
ought to be considered a constitutional
check on the Crown; but how could that
check exist, if they were every day add-
ing to its influence?
Mr. Secretary Canning said, that on a
question which had excited so much
personal feeling, he was very anxious
before the House came to a vote, to state,
in as few words and as clearly as he could,
his own individual view of the subject.
Nothing, he thought,could more decidedly
prove the spirit of fairness which actuated
him, than by assuring the hon. gentleman
who opposed the bringing up of the report,
that he would take no advantage whatever
of the course which he had pursued; but
he would view his opposition merely as an
obstruction to a grant which he would not
dislike, if proposed in some other manner.
The hon. member had demanded two or
three times, Why do you bring forward






of the Board of Trade.


this measure at the present moment ?
Why do you take so unfavourable an
opportunity to introduce it ?" Now, the
fact was, that the opportunity was not
selected by his majesty's government,
neither did the suggestion emanate from
them. It originated, not with his majesty's
government, but with those whom the hon.
gentleman had designated his majesty's
opposition [a laugh]. He could assure
the hon. gentleman that ministers had not
the least idea of proposing any augmenta-
tion of salary, until the suggestion came
from the other side of the House. It was
unquestionably true that the suggestion
was made at a time when the situation of
the country was different from that in
which it was placed at present; but that
was the misfortune of ministers, not their
fault. Their misfortune was, that they
had to execute at a lessfavourable moment,
that which the gentlemen opposite had
proposed at a more favourable one. That
suggestion or proposition was, at the time,
received with acclamation; but now the
attempt to carry it into effect called forth
bitter criticism and severe remark. If
ministers had, this year, shrunk from pro-
posing any measure of this kind, on
account of any difficulties that existed, he
was convinced that the gentlemen opposite
would have expressed their dissatisfaction.
And he would tell the hon. gentleman
further, not only that ministers were not
responsible for proceeding at this moment,
but that the suggestion had reached them
in this way-that if the government did
not stir in this matter, some gentlemen on
the other side of the House would take it
up [hear]. His majesty's ministers,
therefore, were no more responsible for
the choice of time than they were for
originating the measure. He declared,
that, although he should be very sorry to
stand in the way of any advantage to be
derived by his right hon. friend from the
intended arrangement, yet if he were
called upon to make his election between
sacrificing the Treasurership of the Navy
and granting a salary to the President of
the Board of Trade, he would do his
utmost to protect the former office. He
would do it upon principle, and because
he should fear to do any thing in the way
of dilapidating and demolishing the ancient
and dignified offices of the state. He
ridiculed the idea of a necessary and in-
separable union between the two offices as
being contrary to their direct history. In
questions of official reform there was


17]


APart, 10, 1826. [189
nothing so apt for their reference as the
economical reform of Mr. Burke in 1782,
the speech upon which had now become
full as much a monument of genius as a
record of history. Mr. Burke had suc-
ceeded in abolishing the Board of Trade
altogether, and doing away the salaries
which amounted to 8,0001. or 10,0001. a
year. The business afterwards devolved
upon a president, vice-president, and com-
mittee chosen from the privy council. In
the same speech Mr. Burke had proposed
alterations in the offices of the army
paymasters, and the Treasurer of the
Navy: but he deprecated at the same
time any attempt to do away with the
importance, much less the existence of
either of those offices, because of the rank
of the persons who generally filled them.
They were generally persons of the high-
est rank; by which he meant to say a
person of eminence and consideration in
that House. So far was that great man
from the intention of bringing down the
fair resources of government, that he only
wished to remove from the office of the
Treasurer of the Navy a great mass of
business which, he thought, would be
better conducted by the Bank of England.
Though he would have stripped it of that
show of business, he proved it to be his
own opinion that the office itself ought to
form a part of the efficient means of
government: he respected it, too, because
it was an ancient office, and had always
been found useful in forming a govern-
ment, and because it was, in his opinion,
a fit office for men of the highest
eminence and consideration in the House."
At that time the Treasurer of the Navy
enjoyed large emoluments, as he and the
paymaster of the forces held in their hands
large balances of the public money. Mr.
Burke provided for the separate existence
of the office, though he took away this
source of advantage from it, by causing
all sums in hand to be transferred to the
Bank of England. From that period the
office had been as often held separately as
with another office. Mr. Dundas held it
with the presidency of the Board of Con-
trol, which, in 1790, was made a salaried
office, and the sum fixed upon was 2,0001.,
in contemplation, as it was then declared,
of the 4,000/. a year which he held as
Treasurer of the Navy. Mr. Ryder, now
lord Harrowby, succeeded to the treasurer-
ship of the Navy in 1799, but not to the
presidency of the Board of Control. Mr.
Bathurst succeeded to it, without any






139] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
other office annexed in 1801. In 1803,
the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr.
Tierney) succeeded Mr. Bathurst, with-
out the annexation of any other office.
He himself succeeded the right hon.
gentleman, without the annexation of any
other office or business. Mr. Sheridan
succeeded him in 1806, and was suc-
ceeded by Mr. George Rose in 1807. The
occupation of Mr. Rose was a singular
exemplification, in both ways of viewing
it, of the error of conceiving the Presi-
dency of the Board of Trade and the
Treasurership of the Navy to be insepara-
bly united. Mr. Rose held the office from
1807 to 1812, in conjunction with a much
more onerous office-the vice-presidency
of the Board of Trade. At the latter
period he declined the onerous office of
vice-president, and continued to hold the
office of Treasurer of the Navy till the day
of his death. The declaration of Mr.
Burke would still be found good. He
who held that office, must, as government
was at present constituted, be a man of
" eminence and consideration in that
House." His time and talents must be
at the disposal of government, to assist
them in digesting and putting into order
that mass of desultory and incidental
business, the nature of which it would be
impossible officially to define, which yet
must command their attention, and which
must by some means be done, though all
the regular departments were overborne
by the pressure of ordinary business. This
was not his opinion only, "non meus hic
sermo." It was the opinion of one of
their own committees. He referred them
to the report of the committee of Finance,
dated 1817. The salary of the Treasurer
of the Navy was at that time 4,0001.
a year, with a house and other advan.
tages, which must be worth 7001. or
8001. a year more. In the report of the
committee of Finance, dated the 23rd of
June, 1817, he found the following ob-
servations:-" They esteem the salary
paid to the Treasurer of the Navy as much
too large, and recommend a reduction on
any future appointment to that office, so
as to place it on a level in respect of
emolument with the paymaster of the
forces, its present salary being the same
as that which would have been lately re-
ceived by the paymaster of the forces if
the office had been held by one individual.
Your committee, however, think it but
fair to observe, that in the oldest Naval
estimates extant, viz., from 1684 to 1695,


Salary, ojthe President


[140


while the salaries of the lords of the Ad-
miralty were, as at present, 10001. per
annum; the salary of the Treasurer of the
Navy was no less than 3,0001. per annum:
and there is no doubt, that, besides his
official duties, the Treasurer of the Navy
has been frequently looked to as the per-
son to whom important parliamentary and
political business connected with the Naval
department and the general concerns of
government, should be confided. Whe-
ther these latter considerations will induce
the House to continue the salary of
4,0001., or reduce it to 3,0001. or any
other sum, it is not for your committee to
inquire. They have not in any case con-
sidered themselves called upon to enter
into political considerations of this nature,
and have recommended the reduction
hereinbefore proposed, on a mere view of
the duties of the office itself, and on a
principle of assimilation to the paymaster
of theforces." This was not his language,
but that of the finance committee of 1817 ;
from which it evidently appeared to be in
the contemplation of that committee, that
there might exist, properly, certain offices
the holders of which might have time to
spare from the particular concerns of
their own departments, for the general
business of the government, and they al-
luded to one case-that of parliamentary
business, to which such persons had to
attend. Every one knew what was meant
by the Treasurer of the Navy being re-
tained for the business of parliament.
They all knew that the attendance in the
House formed a very considerable portion
of that business. The usefulness of at-
tending committees above stairs had never
been shown more strongly than in a late
instance, where his right lion. friend
(Mr. Huskisson) sat as chairman. It was
well known that the physical powers of a
late lamented noble friend of his (lord
Londonderry) had broken down in con-
sequence of his earnest attendance on the
corn committee; and many men who
could easily get through the routine of
their office business, found themselves
worn by the fatigue of parliamentary at-
tendance. He came now to the various
views taken of the two offices, and the
proposals for their alteration. Some gen-
tlemen wished to have them both con-
nected; some would have the salary of
the Treasurer of the Navy diminished:
others complained that government would
succeed in bringing another office into
parliament. He thanked the hon. gen-







141] of the Board of Trade.
tlemen opposite for the occasional appro-
bation which they bestowed upon govern-
ment, though he must be allowed to say,
that they took back in detail as much, if
not more than they gave in gross. They
balanced their eulogium on some of the
measures of administration by liberal vitu-
peration of its designs. Let them ask
themselves, whatever faults government
might have, if it had shown any thing like
a disposition to increase the influence of
the Crown in this respect? They were
asked, had they not done this in the case
of the vice-treasurer of Ireland ? Cer-
tainly not. Parliament had abolished both
the office and functions of the chancellor
of the Exchequer for Ireland, and the
remaining business was left to the man-
agement of a vice-treasurer. Another
case put was that of the mastership of the
Mint; and how did that stand? The
present master of the Mint, Mr. Wallace,
was, at the time of his appointment, at
the head of a commission which had been
often and loudly eulogized by gentlemen
opposite. Had government been pos-
sessed with the desire of increasing their
strength by places, what hindered them
from appointing another person to the
mastership of the Mint, and retaining that
gentleman at the head of the commission
which had earned such applause from
parliament? He ventured to say, that
there was no instance of any government,
since governments had been conducted
parliamentarily, showing so little dispo-
sition to have officers of the Crown hold-
ing seats in that House. They did not
hold office by the tenure of a few votes,
more or less. Unless they were in pos-
session of their places through the just
confidence of the country, they ought not
to be in them at all. Whenever that pos-
session came to depend upon their having
ten or twenty votes more or less, he hoped
the administration would be at an end.
But they were not eager to have every
officer who might be there, who possessed
efficiency, who could add in present
strength and credit to the government,
though nothing to its stability, sitting with
them. They had, on the contrary, shown
themselves too lax upon that point.
They had done without the presence and
aid of officers of government in that
House, with whose assistance no go-
vernment ought to dispense. He re-
membered Mr. Pitt, in the plenitude
of his power, when he was equal in de-
bate to any ten of them now present.-


APRIL 10, 1826.


Mr. Pitt at that time was assisted by a
Master of the Rolls, sir W. Grant, of no
mean strength and ability; and, until the
time of sir Thomas Plumer, that officer
was never out of the House. It was clear,
then, that the present government had
shewn no disposition to create offices, in
order to catch single votes in parliament.
There was another instance, in the case
of one who held an office which bore some
relation, with respect to the civil law, to
the office of Attorney-general, who had
formerly usually sat in parliament, and
had no seat there at present. In 1804,
when a very warm and long debate arose
on a certain occasion, the whole brunt of
it fell on the master of the Rolls and the
king's Advocate. What was to hinder
them, if they stood now upon any worse
footing than public confidence, from
having the aid of two such eligible officers?
Was there ever an opposition composed
of so many eminent and active lawyers?
Men of celebrity in that profession formed
the bulk of the present opposition. What
an advantage to ministers would it have
been to have had the master of the Rolls
to have struggled for them upon the
Chancery debates? What a superior po-
sition they might have taken, had they,
instead of their own unlearned succours,
been able to meet the logic of the hon. and
learned gentlemen opposite with the legiti-
mate, authorized, precedented assistance
of the master of the Rolls, and the king's
advocate. Did any of the hon. gentlemen
opposite suppose it could be no advantage
to have those officers present, to whose
presence they were unquestionably legi-
timately entitled? Another instance of
their laxity was, in not requiring the pre-
sence of the judge Advocate, whose ab-
sence no government till now had allowed.
Here, then, were three officers, of whose
assistance they had suffered themselves
to be deprived. He therefore rebutted
the charge of looking out to increase the
number of placemen in that House. It
could not now be believed that in wishing
to have a salary fixed to the office of Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade, they were
actuated by the desire of increasing the
influence of the' Crown in parliament,
since they had purposely neglected abun-
dant opportunities in which they might
have safely introduced persons holding
places. No topic was so fruitful of ap-
plause as a declaration against the influ-
ence of the Crown. But, confessing that,
in his opinion, the influence of the Crown


[142







143] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
needed not in this respect to be enlarged,
he wished the House to look to the op-
posite extreme. What would be the ef-
ect of driving out of the house officers
who were constitutionally eligible to sit in
it? He knew of no law by which the
Crown was at present bound to select its
ministers from either or both Houses of
parliament. For any authority of that
kind of which he had any knowledge, the
king might send to any two private gen-
tlemen, offering to make one of them his
secretary of state, and the other his prime
minister. Governments ought, according
to the notions of perfection held by some
theorists, to be so conducted. Public
business was managed in this very way in
some countries. He had, however, never
heard any gentleman say in that House
that he thought such a mode of conduct-
ing government a good one for the coun-
try. The presence of government officers,
then, became only a question of degree,
which was not to be met by any plan for
counting heads, but by the general views
and the immediate character of the go-
vernment itself. Now, let the House
notice the converse of this proposition.
Though there was no rule of law to re-
quire the Crown to choose its servants from
parliament, was there not good sense in
the practice? Was this not a most useful
check to the choosing of ministers upon a
system of mere favouritism ? Was it not
beneficial to the country that the ministers
of the Crown should be men well known
in that House-men who had been long
in the public eye, and had proved in par-
liament their fitness for office? Was it
not a great security to the public for the
efficiency of the officers of government,
that they should appear in parliament and
prove their capacity for their situations?
There were certain offices whose pos-
sessors could not be excluded from par-
liament, without lowering the standard of
the government, and such an office was
the treasurership of the Navy. For the
sake of a vote, it would not be worth
while to the government to take the
trouble of debating this question. He
gave his opinion with perfect disinterest-
edness, because it did not signify a hair
to the government, with a view to a vote,
whether the Treasurer of the Navy should
be in parliament or not. But the con-
sequence of excluding such officers from
parliament would be to make the high
offices of state subjects for scramble
among mere favourites. The gentlemen


Salary of the President


[144


opposite might themselves soon succeed
to these offices, and he was, therefore,
doing them a great service in resisting
their wishes on this occasion. If it were
acted upon, then they would have for the
great offices of state, persons with no
higher qualifications for them than those
of bankers' clerks. The parliamentary
character ought never to be separated
from high and honourable office, and
never could be so separated, without
great injury to the public, and the loss of
that respectability which the government
of this country should ever maintain. So
much for the notion of excluding the
Treasurer of the Navy from parliament.
And now one word with respect to the
salary. That salary was before 4,0001.
per annum; and at the present time it
was 3,0001. It was now proposed to re-
duce it to 2,0001. He knew no principle
upon which any one of these sums should
be preferred to the other; but where he
could not find a reason, he must look for
a rule, and a rule might often serve for a
reason. Now, he found, in the report of
the finance committee, a statement, that
when this office was held alone, it should
be put on the footing of that of paymas-
ter of the forces. Here, then, was a
rule; and as the case mentioned by the
committee was now likely to arise, that
rule might be applied to this office. The
salary of the paymaster of the forces was
2,0001. with a house. It was now intended
to give the Treasurer of the Navy a salary
of 2,5001.-the additional 5001. being in
lieu of a house. These were the grounds
upon which he thought, in the first place,
that the office should be filled separately;
secondly, that the person who filled it,
ought not to be excluded from parlia-
ment; and lastly, that the amount of
salary was reasonable.
Mr. Tierney protested, that, in the
whole course of his parliamentary expe-
rience, he had never heard a speech which
astonished him more than that of the right
hon. gentleman who had just sat down.
Positively, any body who had attended to
his reasoning must have thought that the
whole struggle in this debate-the whole
object of everylgentleman on the opposition
side of the House was, to abolish the
office of Treasurer of the Navy altogether;
and that the only difficulty with them was,
as to the shortest way in which that ob-
ject could be accomplished. But could
any thing be more wide of the fact?
Nobody had proposed, nobody had dreamt






1453 of the Board of Trade.
of such a thing. [The right hon. gen-
tleman was, at this moment, interrupted
by a rush of members into the House.]
He said he was glad to see his friends
coming in in such numbers, as there was
now a chance of their having a fair start.
He begged the House to consider that
the plain and simple question which they
were called upon to decide was this-
whether the salary of the President of the
Board of Trade should be 2,0001. or
5,0001. a year; and he begged gentlemen
to keep to that simple point, and not
suffer themselves to be talked into any
other proposition. What that had to do
with the influence of the Crown generally,
it might be for the right hon. gentleman
opposite to explain. He (Mr. T.)
could not. Nobody had said a word
about that influence-nobody had com-
plained that it was too great or too little
-nobody had hinted that it ought to be
lessened. All that was said was, "Why
do you now add to that influence ?" He
begged gentlemen to consider seriously
what it was they had to discuss. An
hon. friend near him had called the op-
position the "king's opposition." The
propriety of this appellation had been re-
cognized by gentlemen on the other side;
and indeed it could not be disputed.
From his personal experience, he could
bear testimony to the truth of the de-
signation; and that experience was no
trifle. For years he had opposed the
measures of government, because he dis-
approved of their principles; but when
they changed their tone, he had not been
backward in giving them his feeble sup-
port. My hon. friend (continued Mr.
Tierney) could not have invented a bet-
ter phrase to designate us than that which
he has adopted, for we are certainly to
all intents and purposes, a branch of his
majesty's government. Its proceedings
for some time past have proved, that
though the gentlemen opposite are in
office, we are in power. The measures
are ours, but all the emoluments are
theirs [cheers, and laughter.] It ap-
pears, by the right hon. gentleman's own
shewing, that this is our motion. He
contends that we have no right to oppose
it, because it was we who originally sug-
gested it. It is, in my opinion, imma-
terial from what quarter the suggestion
proceeded. I believe an hon. friend of
mine (Mr. Baring) did say, that he con-
sidered the salary unequal to the labour
required by the duties of the office, and
VOL. XV.


APRIL 10, 1826.


[146


the great talents with which they were at
that moment discharged. But this sug-
gestion was thrown out last session; and
no fault was found on our side of the
House this session, because no notice had
been taken of the suggestion. But it
seems to have lain heavily on the right
lion. gentleman. He steps forward to
relieve himself, and, as he assures us, to
gratify us; and he says I will accede
to your wishes; I will take the salary you
suggest for one office, and I will keep the
other office with the salary just as it is."
No wonder that we did not know our own
child. Under the right hon. gentleman's
nursing, he had changed it for a lusty
bantling, in the shape of a new Treasurer
of the Navy; an office which I undertake
to prove utterly useless, in a sense which
I will hereafter explain. The right hon.
gentleman says, that we, of the opposition,
are not sufficiently on the alert, with re-
gard to our own interests; and he has
declared that government is in no want of
such supporters as it may gain from this
measure. I differ from him widely. I
think that government do want support.
I never saw a session when they wanted
it more. The right hon. gentleman may
not be aware of the full extent of his ob-
ligations to this side of the House; but I
can assure him, that if, as he asserts, he
would not consent to stay in office with a
pitiful majority oftwenty, he would, with-
out our support, have been long ago driven
from his present honours. If we take
away our support, out he must go to-
morrow. The right hon. gentleman has
taken credit somewhat too largely for the
reduction of the official seats in this
House. True, we have lately had no
master of the Rolls here. But sir Tho-
mas Plumer, towards the close of his life,
could not, if he would, have given his
personal support to the measures of go-
vernment. His infirmities rendered him
incapable of attending. If we have no
master of the Rolls now in this House, it
is because he is in another place, where
he is required to be bodily present for the
aid and support of the lord chancellor.
But the right hon. gentleman complains,
that the opposition is made up of lawyers.
It is true that we breed some lawyers on
this side, but it is also true that we some-
times breed them for the other side of the
House. Half their strength has come out
of our nursery; not much improved cer-
tainly by transplanting. "You have two
civilians," the right hon. gentleman says;
L






147] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
" there is an advantage I" But what has
he, let me ask? He has one civilian
(Dr. Phillimore), and a judge in the ec-
clesiastical courts (sir J. Nicholl) who is
at least worth two civilians. The learned
civilian (Dr. Phillimore) was not seated
at the Board of Control purely on account
of his attachment to Indian affairs. He
no doubt considers the 1,5001. a year
which he receives, as a general retaining
fee for the support lie is to render to the
right hon. gentleman; who, on his part,
seems to think that the moment a lawyer
accepts office, he is bound to vote with
his party through thick and thin. As to
lawyers in general, there are surely enough
on the other side of the House. They
have the Attorney-general, and the So-
licitor-general, and the chief justice of
Chester-he, by the bye, is one they have
borrowed of us-and they have a Welch
judge, and perhaps they will, in a little
time, have Mr. Kenrick; while we only
have those who maintain their station by
the independent exercise of their talent.
The real question before us, however, is,
whether the proposed salary of 5,0001.
shall be given to my right hon. friend,
the President of the Board of Trade, in
consideration of the great ability with which
he has filled that office? That is the
footing on which I wish to see the ques-
tion stand. I mean to consider the pro-
position as a compliment to the right hon.
gentleman, for I am not convinced that
his office ought permanently to be a ca-
binet office, I am favourable to the pro-
position, because I am of opinion that
government will be strengthened by in-
creasing the rank and importance of this
officer. I therefore heartily hope he may
have the augmentation desired. The
right hon. secretary says that the sugges-
tion originally came from our side. So
let it be, if he pleases ; but in what shape
did it go from us ? Why., undoubtedly,
as a suggestion to add 2,0001. to the salary
of 3,0001. already received by my right
hon. friend as Treasurer of the Navy. As
to the incompatibility of the two offices
which he now fills, will any hon. gentle-
man lay his hand on his heart and say,
that he verily believes any inconvenience
has resulted to the public service, or to
the individuals holding those offices du-
ring the last six years? I feel myself
bound by every means in my power to
oppose this attempt to make the presi-
dency of the Board of Trade a substan-
tive office. I regard it as a wanton waste


Salary of the President, c. [148
of the public money; and I am equally
opposed to the miserable project for re-
ducing the salary of the Treasurer of the
Navy from 3,0001. to 2,5001., in order
that it may be given to somebody for his
support in this House; and for aught that
I know, too, to a lawyer [cheers].
The House divided: Ayes 87; Noes
76. Majority for receiving the report,
11.
List of the Majority; and also of the
Minority.
MAJORITY.
Alexander, James Lewis, W.
Arbuthnot, right hon. Lewis, F.
C. Lindsay, hon. H.
Antrobus, G. C. Lockhart, W. E.
Bradshaw, T. Long, sir C.
Brogden, James Lopes, sir M.
Bankes, George Lushington, S. R.
Calvert, John Lushington, col.
Canning, right hon. Madocks, W.A.
G. Martin, sir B.
Cholmondeley,lordH. Martin, R.
Coffin, sir I. M'Naughton, F. A.
Cockburn, sir G. Montgomery, sir D.
Cocks, James Morland, sir S. B.
Cooper, C. S. Nicoll, sir J.
Copley, sir J. S. Onslow, serg.
Courtenay, T. P. Oxmantown, lord
Dalrymple, col. Palmer, R.
Davis, Hart Palmerston, lord
Denison, J. Pearse, J.
Divett, T. Peel, right hon. R.
Downie, R. Pennant. G. H.I
Douglas, W. R. Percy, hon. W. H.
Drummond, H. Phillimore, Dr.
Dunlop, J. Plummer, J.
East, sir Hyde Prendergast, M. G.
Elliot, lord Rae, sir W. B.
Ellis, C. R. Robinson, right hon.
Evelyn, L. F.
Farquhar, sir R. Ross, C.
Foster, L. Rowley, sir J.
Freemantle, W. H. Sandon, lord


Goulburn, right hon.
H.
Grant, right hon. C.
Grant, sir A. C.
Gurney, Hudson
Hardinge, sir H.
Hart, General
Hill, sir G.
Holford, G. H.
Holmes, W.
Hulse, sir C.
Inglis, sir H.
Irvine, John
Knox, hon. T.
Leake, W.


Somerset, lord G.
Staunton, sir G.
Strutt, J. H.
Trant, W. H.
Ure, Masterton
Wallace, right hon. T.
Warrender, sir G.
Wellesley, R.
Wetherall, sir C.
Wynn, right hon. C.
W.
TELLERS.
Herries, T. C.
Horton, R. W.


MINORITY.
Abercromby, hon. J: Baillie, J.
Althorp, lord Bankes, H.
Astley, J. Baring, sir T.







149]
Baring, A.
Bernal, R.
Birch, J.
Bright, HI.
Burdett, sir F.
Butterworth, J.
Calvert, N.
Calvert, C.
Campbell, W. F.
Caulfield, hon. 1H.
Cavendish, C. C.
Colborne, N. W. R.
Corbett, P.
Crompton, S.
Cumming, G.
Davenport, D.
Denison, W. J.
Ellice, E.
Fane, J.
Fellowes, W. H.
Fergusson, sir R.
Gaskell, B.
Glenorchy, lord
Grant, J. P.
Grenfell, P.
Grosvenor, hon. R.
Hamilton, lord. A.
Honywood, W. P.
Hughes, W. L.
Hume, J.
Keck, G. A. L.
Lamb, hon. G.
Lawley, F.
Lethbridge, sir T.
Leycester, R.
Lloyd, S. G.
Lockhart, J.


Preventive Service.
Maberly, J. L.
Marjoribanks, S.
Martin, J.
Monck, J. B.
Monday, F.
Newport, sir J.
Ord, W.
Osborn, lord F. G.
Parnell, sir H.
Phillips, G.
Pitt, J.
Portman, E. B.
Pym, F.
Rice, T. S.
Rickford, V.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Robarts, col.
Robarts, A. W.
Robinson, sir G.
Russell, lord J.
Russell, lord W.
Scarlett, J.
Sebright, sir J.
Smith, R.
Thompson, ald.
Tierney, right hon. G.
Tulk, C. A.
Warre, J. A.
Whitbread, W. H.
Williams, T. P.
Wilson, T.
Wood, ald.
Wrottesley, sir J.
TELLERS.
Calcraft, J.
Hobhouse, J. C.


The resolution, "That his Majesty be
enabled to grant a Salary of 5,000'. to
the President of the Board of Trade," was
then reported.
Mr. Secretary Canning expressed his
regret that the smallness of the majority
would prevent him from persevering in
the course which, as a matter of princi-
ple, he had conscientiously supported;
but which, as a matter of expediency, he
now felt himself bound, under all the cir-
cumstances of the case, to abandon.
The expression of opinion had, undoubt-
edly, been very strong, and his majesty's
government would not further press the
measure. As it seemed to be the wish of
the House, they would consent to the
union of the ancient office of the Treasurer
of the Navy with that of the President of
the Board of Trade [hear, hear!].
Mr. Tierney rose, with heartfelt plea-
sure, to assure his majesty's Government,
that they had, by this act, justly earned
the approbation of "his majesty's Opposi-
tion" [a laugh].
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,


APRIL I,, 826. [150
that his right hon. friend had intimated
the course which government intended on
this occasion to pursue. It was his duty
to carry that intention into effect, and it
appeared to him consistent with right
feeling, and with a due sense of what be-
longed to his situation, to move the pro-
position himself, without suffering any re-
straint from false shame. Many severe
and groundless imputations had been cast
upon government in the course of the
debate, but it was not necessary to do
more at that time than to notice and repel
them generally. He would now move,
" That the Resolution be amended by in-
serting the sum of 2,0001. as the salary of
the President of the Board of Trade, in-
stead of 5,0001.
Sir MA. W. Ridley seconded the amend-
ment, which he had intended to move
himself, if the right hon. gentleman had
not anticipated him.
Mr. Hume hoped, that in the general
satisfaction he might be allowed to offer
a few words. He was happy to find that
the ministers had been obliged to aban-
don their original proposal, and he called
upon the opposition to take courage from
the circumstance. If they did their duty
much might be done in the way of reduc-
tion before the present parliament would
close its labours.
The resolution as amended was agreed
to, and a bill ordered to be brought in
thereupon.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, April 11.
PREVENTIVE SERVICE.] The Earl of
Darnley rose to bring under the consider-
ation of their lordships, the subject of
which he had last night given notice.
Although, the noble earl said, the late la-
mentable occurrence on the coast of Kent,
attended with the loss of a valuable life,
had been the immediate cause of his call-
ing their lordships' attention to the sub-
ject, this was not the only circumstance
which had influenced him, nor was that
the first time he had felt an interest in the
matter. It was not so much the particu-
lar transaction he complained of, as the
system. He could not believe, indeed,
that such an order as the one issued by
the officer, that whenever three persons
were assembled together, and did not
answer or did not disperse, they were to
be immediately fired at (although that
order had been laid before the coroner's






131] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
the immense sums which passed through
his hands. He begged it to be understood,
that he opposed the present resolution,
not as a resolution of compensation for
past meritorious services, but as a prece-
dent for future practice. If he were
mistaken in what he had stated respecting
the office of Treasurer of the Navy, his
mistake afforded an additional reason for
granting the committee of inquiry, since
his ignorance of the duties of that office
might be shared by others, and could not
be dispelled but by the means which a
committee of inquiry could alone supply.
As ministers refused to institute that in-
quiry, all he could do was, to meet their
resolution with the most determined
opposition-an opposition which was di-
rected not against the right hon. the
President of the Board of Trade, but
against the job which was most unjusti-
fiably grafted upon him.
Mr. R. Martin said, he should not have
risen, but to answer the observation of an
hon. gentleman, that none but the mem-
bers of government said a word in favour
of the proposed measure. Now he, for
one, begged leave to say, that he con-
curred in opinion with every one who
had spoken upon the subject of the merits
of the right hon. President of the Board
of Trade, and the propriety of attaching
a more adequate salary to his office. He
also begged leave to say, that he should
vote most conscientiously for the separa-
tion of the two offices. He thought that
separation ought to have taken place
sooner; but he did not feel the less
disposed to give it his support now
that it had been proposed.
The committee divided: Fortheamend-
ment 35; against it 71 ; majority 36;
The original resolution was then agreed
to.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, April 10.
LOCAL PAYMENT OF BANK NOTES.]
The Marquis of Lansdown rose to intro-
duce the bill of which he had given notice
before the adjournment. The object of
it was to make all notes payable at places
different from that in which they were
issued, also payable where issued. It was
not his wish at that time to trouble their
lordships by calling their attention to the
provisions of the bill until after it should
be printed.
The Earl of Lauderdale asked whether


Salary ofthe President


[15S


the noble marquis meant that the bill
should extend to Scotland ?
The Marquis of Lansdoun said, he
certainly intended that Scotland should
be included in the operation of the bill.
The Earl of Lauderdale said, he should
then have occasion to state to their lord-
ships very material reasons why it should
not be so extended. He begged the noble
marquis to recollect, that at that moment
there was a committee sitting to inquire
into the banking system of Scotland.
Now, if that was the case, he thought it
would be more becoming to defer pro-
ceeding with this bill until after that com-
mittee had made its report.
The Marquis of Lansdown said, that the
object of the committee was, to inquire
into the effect of the circulation of small
notes in Scotland and Ireland ; but, what-
ever might be the result of that inquiry,
whether the report should be in favour of,
or against the continuance of small
notes in Scotland it would in no de-
gree affect his view of the subject. If
the result should be the discontinuance
of small notes, then the present bill would
have no effect as to them. If it should
be thought advisable to continue them,
then the bill would be necessary.
The Earl of Lauderdale said, he was
prepared to submit to the committee, that
if the measure proposed by the roble
marquis were adopted, it would destroy
thirty or forty establishments in Scotland.
He spoke in the hearing of those who
knew that banking could not be carried
on in Scotland if the branch banks were
to be suppressed, as they must be if this
bill should pass. He thought that the
noble marquis ought to delay the second
reading, until the evidence to which he
had alluded was before the House.
The Marquis of Lansdown said, he saw
no impropriety in the course he proposed
to pursue. Whether one and two pound
notes were to be suffered in Scotland or
not, he was of opinion that they should
be payable where they were issued. The
noble earl might, if their lordships should
assent to the principle of the bill, propose
in the committee to leave Scotland out of
its operation.
The bill was then read a first time.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, April 10.
SALARY TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE
BOARD Oz TRADE.] The Chancellor of






151] HOUSE OF LORDS,
jury), had ever been authorized, or would
be confirmed by the officer's superiors.
Such an order would lead to a breach of
the peace with very innocent persons,
and men engaged in very peaceable avo-
cations might be treated as smugglers,
and their meetings have a similar termi-
nation. To show that the transaction
alluded to was not the only one of the
kind, he would mention, that he had been
credibly informed, that there was now
standing a tomb-stone in Hastings church-
yard, on which it was inscribed, that the
person beneath it was a fisherman, pur-
suing his peaceable avocation; that he
had been hailed by the boats of the Pre-
ventive Service, and not having imme-
diately answered, he had been fired at and
shot. This had been stated on the co-
roner's inquest, and a verdict of wilful
murder had been returned. He also
knew that the operation of the system was
vexatious to all those who lived in the
neighbourhood. It was some years ago
since a gallant officer, captain M'Culloch,
supposing, probably, somewhat like his
illustrious namesake, who had written
on Irish absenteeism, that it was the same
thing whether the men eat their provisions
on board or on shore, and that they couldbe
as well trained up for seamen while living
on the land, as under his eye on board-
ship, had proposed this method of em-
ploying our seamen during peace. At
first, he believed, the men so employed
were seamen; but, as they had been dis-
charged, their places had been supplied,
not by landsmen merely, not even by raw
countrymen, but by Irishmen, who could
scarcely understand the language of
the people among whom they exercised
their functions, and were unacquainted
with the use of the fire-arms they were
intrusted with. He had once been ar-
rested himself, on landing near his own
house, at Sandgate, in the middle of the
day. Not only was he stopped by one of
the men, but his portmanteau was ex-
amined, and the man claimed the right of
examining his person. This he had de-
nied; but if the man had persisted, he
would have had no remedy, as the man was
armed. He had insisted on seeing the
officer who had disavowed the proceeding,
and with proper feeling had made an am-
ple apology, and had offered to have the
man punished, which he (lord D.) had
declined, as he did not think he was in
fault, but the system. When this had
happened to himself in the middle of the


Preventive Service.


[152


day, their lordships might judge bow vex-
atious the same inquiries must be to the
poor people who constantly lived within
the sphere of the activity of those admi-
nistrators of martial law. Great as were
the evils of this system, lie believed that
smuggling had not decreased under it, but
was as much carried on as ever. Indeed,
it was absurd to suppose, as long as the
temptation was so great, that any system
could put a stop to it. The Preventive
Service could not seal the whole coast
from Sheerness to Portsmouth hermeti-
cally against the introduction of commo-
dities. As his motion was not to be op-
posed, he would not enter further into
details. He was convinced, even if the
object proposed was attained, that it was
purchased at too dear a rate, by exposing
the property and persons of all those who
came under its influence to the rudeness
of men unable to exercise the power in-
trusted to them with discretion. But, if the
object were not attained, as he was dis-
posed to believe it was not, then it was
the duty of parliament to interfere and put
an end to it. He should now move, That
there be laid before their lordships a Re-
turn of all the Officers and Men employed
in the Preventive Service, distinguishing
the able seamen ; and also an account of
the annual expense of the whole Pre-
ventive Service."
Lord Melville said, that the noble earl
was entirely misinformed. No such com-
mand or order had been given as that
which he had mentioned, justifying the
men to use violence of any kind, on any
of his majesty's subjects, that could lead
to a breach of the peace, or an interruption
of lawful avocations. No such order had
been given; on the contrary, orders had
been repeatedly given, that they should,
on no occasion, use any kind of violence,
or even resistance, unless they were first
attacked. It could not be expected, that
men with arms in their hands should not
defend themselves when attacked. They
were entitled, like other men, under similar
circumstances, to use their arms. On the
night of the late accident, armed bands of
smugglers had been seen collecting in
sundry places on the coast, near Hythe,
where the accident had occurred. Notices
of this had been given, and the men
ordered to be particularly on the alert.
The individual mentioned had been
alarmed, and took on himself to do that
for which he was responsible to the law
of the land ; which was, in fact, in direct






153] Preventive Service.
disobedience of the orders he had received,
and unhappily he had discharged his
musket at his own officer. Before that
particular service was established, troops
had been employed to perform the same
duties, and people were then as liable to
be fired at, for not answering, as at
present. It was necessary, for the se-
curity of the revenue, that some such
force should be employed. If the noble
earl supposed that smuggling could be
prevented on that part of the coast, by the
ordinary revenue officers, he was much
mistaken. They were quite inadequate
to keep down the smugglers. Within a
few days information had reached the
Admiralty, which would satisfy the noble
earl, had he seen it, that there was a ne-
cessity to have a large force on the coast,
not only to protect the revenue, but to
preserve the peace of that part of the
country. For assemblies of armed men
to resist the officers of the government,
whether they were revenue officers,
soldiers, or sailors, in the execution of
their duty, had long ago been declared a
capital offence. Such assemblies must be
put down by the strong arm of the law.
The system of the preventive service was
projected, as the noble earl said truly, by
a gallant officer now no more; and it had
partly for its object to keep our seamen
employed during peace. As we had to
keep up a naval establishment, was it not
as well so to employ the men ? The noble
earl had not explained how he would
proceed in protecting the revenue; but
he could assure the noble earl, that if
seamen were not employed for this pur-
pose, a large force, either of infantry or
cavalry, must be kept on that part of the
coast to prevent smuggling. The noble
earl said, he did not think smuggling had
been prevented; but at least it had been
changed. It was now almost confined to
thenarrow part of the channel, where boats
could cross, and by means of signals,
collect a body of men to run, at a moment,
any quantity of goods. It was this pe-
culiarity which made it necessary to em-
ploy a large force on that part of the
coast. The noble earl said, the persons
employed were not seamen; in fact all the
men engaged in that service, like all the
rest of the seamen, were discharged every
three years, and other men entered ; but
the noble earl would find, from the
returns for which he had moved, that the
principal part of these men were not
landsmen. The noble earl supposed,


probably, that the duty on spirits might
be lowered; but if the duty on foreign
spirits were lowered, it would be neces-
sary to lower the duty on spirits made at
home; and, as far as that part of the
country was concerned, with which he
was most intimately connected, spirits
were already as cheap as was beneficial
either to the morality or the health of the
people. Their lordships must make up
their minds to place some coercion on the
production of spirits, or the people of this
country would be drugged with intoxi-
cating poisons. In his opinion, it was not
expedient to lower the duty on home-
made spirits; and unless this were done,
it was not possible to lower the duty on
foreign spirits. Formerly much smuggling
had been carried on,both on the western and
eastern coasts, and on the western coast
lives had been lost. Now, no such thing
occurred, and smuggling and armed
bands were heard of only about Hythe
and its neighbourhood. This was a strong
proof of the efficiency of the preventive
service in protecting the revenue. The
noble earl would see, by referring to the
amount of the duty levied on spirits for
several years past, that he was mistaken in
supposing that smuggling had not been
by this system effectually checked.
The Earl of Liverpool said, it was not
so much from his official situation, as from
his residing for a portion of the year in
the neighbourhood of the coast, and wit-
nessing the effects of the system, that he
wished to say a few words on the subject.
It was now twelve years since the pre-
ventive service had been established; and
the circumstance brought under their
lordships' notice was, he believed, the first
accident which had happened. That had
not been the consequence of any orders
given, as had been mentioned by his noble
friend; but was the act of an individual,
and was, in fact, contrary to the general
orders. One accident could be no argu-
ment against a system. Accidents oc-
curred in every department of business;
and even in those amusements to which
some of their lordships devoted a part of
every year. Their lordships must adopt
one of three systems-they must employ
a naval force, a military force, or they
must lower the duties. As far as the two
species of force were concerned, he
should have thought that noble lords who
in general displayed such a constitutional
jealousy of the military, would have pre-
ferred the employment of seamen. As to


APRIL 11, 1826.


C154






155) HOUSE OF COMMONS,
lowering the duties, he did not think that
practicable; and if a sufficient revenue
were not obtained by indirect, it must be
got by direct taxation. The service had
more effectually answered the object than
had been expected. The noble earl said,
that smuggling was not prevented; and
allowing the correctness of the remark,
though it was not correct to the full ex-
tent, still he should contend that it had
been changed, and was now confined to
the narrow part of the channel. In his
own neighbourhood he could say that it had
been nearly extinguished. It was perhaps,
the highest praise he could give the dis-
tinguished officer, now no more, with
whom the system had originated, that he
had carried it into execution with so much
mildness, that even in the neighbourhood
where smuggling had been extinguished,
he was generally beloved. He never had
known an individual whose services had
given more general satisfaction, or whose
loss was more deeply regretted. He
could not pay a higher tribute to any
public officer, than to say that he had
executed such arduous duties, in such a
place, and among such men, as to give
general satisfaction. He had no objection
to the motion of the noble earl; but he
had no doubt that he would find, when
the returns were before their lordships,
that the service was much more effectual
than he now supposed. There must be
occasional hardships with any system of
police, whether it were military, constabu-
lary, or naval; and these hardships and
inconveniences were the price that was
paid for its advantages.
The motion was agreed to.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, April 13.
BANKING SYSTEM IN SCOTLAND.] Mr.
Huskisson said, the House had received a
great number of petitions, praying that
no alteration should be made in the cur-
rency of Scotland, and it now became
his duty to present one of a different
description. The petition which he held
in his hand pointed out the great benefit
which Scotland would derive, if the same
system, with respect to the currency,
which prevailed in England, were applied
to the former country. It was not neces-
sary, nor would it be regular, to enter at
present into the argument of the peti-
tioners, which appeared to him to be very
forcible. They particularly applied them-


Banking System in Scotland.


[156


selves to the agriculturists of that part of
the united kingdom, and demanded whe-
ther their best interests would not be
served by avoiding those fluctuations of
price which must necessarily occur, until
the present system was put an end to.
He would offer no opinion on the subject,
as it was at present under consideration in
a committee of that House; but should
merely discharge his duty by presenting
the petition. It was from the town of
Dunse, and was signed by 120 respectable
inhabitants.
The petition was then read, setting
forth, That it appears to the petitioners
that where the medium of exchange in
any country consists entirely or princi-
pally of Bank-notes, a power is possessed
by the issuers of these notes to increase or
diminish the circulation at their option;
a power which may seriously affect the
fortune of every individual in the state,
and which, therefore, ought not to be pos-
sessedby any set of men whatever; and late
experience has too clearlyshown that while,
in the period of confidence, such a state
of circulation gives every facility to over-
extended and gambling speculation, so
upon the occurrence of panic and embar-
rassment, the country is left without the
means of carrying on its regular business,
and distress is thereby greatly augmented ;
that the political and commercial circum-
stances of recent times have been accom-
panied with more sudden and extensive
vicissitudes in private fortunes than were
ever before witnessed, and the daily sight
of great and rapidly acquired wealth sti-
mulated the sanguine to venture every
thing in hopes of the same success, and
the salutary disgrace that used to attend
bankruptcy having almost entirely lost its
restraining effect, from its unfortunate
frequency, even the most cautious and
considerate were hurried along by the pre-
vailing current; the petitioners believe
that these evils were much increased, and
have been continued, by the fluctuations
of the currency; that the petitioners, al-
though removed from the great commer-
cial and manufacturing districts, have yet
not only felt the swell caused by the dis-
tant storm, but in the agricultural county
in which they reside have seen many in-
stances of the bad effects of the variations
in the price of the produce of land, and the
occasional extension and contraction of
accommodation by the banks, by which
speculators who were engaged in exten-
sive improvements, and who appeared to







149]
Baring, A.
Bernal, R.
Birch, J.
Bright, HI.
Burdett, sir F.
Butterworth, J.
Calvert, N.
Calvert, C.
Campbell, W. F.
Caulfield, hon. 1H.
Cavendish, C. C.
Colborne, N. W. R.
Corbett, P.
Crompton, S.
Cumming, G.
Davenport, D.
Denison, W. J.
Ellice, E.
Fane, J.
Fellowes, W. H.
Fergusson, sir R.
Gaskell, B.
Glenorchy, lord
Grant, J. P.
Grenfell, P.
Grosvenor, hon. R.
Hamilton, lord. A.
Honywood, W. P.
Hughes, W. L.
Hume, J.
Keck, G. A. L.
Lamb, hon. G.
Lawley, F.
Lethbridge, sir T.
Leycester, R.
Lloyd, S. G.
Lockhart, J.


Preventive Service.
Maberly, J. L.
Marjoribanks, S.
Martin, J.
Monck, J. B.
Monday, F.
Newport, sir J.
Ord, W.
Osborn, lord F. G.
Parnell, sir H.
Phillips, G.
Pitt, J.
Portman, E. B.
Pym, F.
Rice, T. S.
Rickford, V.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Robarts, col.
Robarts, A. W.
Robinson, sir G.
Russell, lord J.
Russell, lord W.
Scarlett, J.
Sebright, sir J.
Smith, R.
Thompson, ald.
Tierney, right hon. G.
Tulk, C. A.
Warre, J. A.
Whitbread, W. H.
Williams, T. P.
Wilson, T.
Wood, ald.
Wrottesley, sir J.
TELLERS.
Calcraft, J.
Hobhouse, J. C.


The resolution, "That his Majesty be
enabled to grant a Salary of 5,000'. to
the President of the Board of Trade," was
then reported.
Mr. Secretary Canning expressed his
regret that the smallness of the majority
would prevent him from persevering in
the course which, as a matter of princi-
ple, he had conscientiously supported;
but which, as a matter of expediency, he
now felt himself bound, under all the cir-
cumstances of the case, to abandon.
The expression of opinion had, undoubt-
edly, been very strong, and his majesty's
government would not further press the
measure. As it seemed to be the wish of
the House, they would consent to the
union of the ancient office of the Treasurer
of the Navy with that of the President of
the Board of Trade [hear, hear!].
Mr. Tierney rose, with heartfelt plea-
sure, to assure his majesty's Government,
that they had, by this act, justly earned
the approbation of "his majesty's Opposi-
tion" [a laugh].
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,


APRIL I,, 826. [150
that his right hon. friend had intimated
the course which government intended on
this occasion to pursue. It was his duty
to carry that intention into effect, and it
appeared to him consistent with right
feeling, and with a due sense of what be-
longed to his situation, to move the pro-
position himself, without suffering any re-
straint from false shame. Many severe
and groundless imputations had been cast
upon government in the course of the
debate, but it was not necessary to do
more at that time than to notice and repel
them generally. He would now move,
" That the Resolution be amended by in-
serting the sum of 2,0001. as the salary of
the President of the Board of Trade, in-
stead of 5,0001.
Sir MA. W. Ridley seconded the amend-
ment, which he had intended to move
himself, if the right hon. gentleman had
not anticipated him.
Mr. Hume hoped, that in the general
satisfaction he might be allowed to offer
a few words. He was happy to find that
the ministers had been obliged to aban-
don their original proposal, and he called
upon the opposition to take courage from
the circumstance. If they did their duty
much might be done in the way of reduc-
tion before the present parliament would
close its labours.
The resolution as amended was agreed
to, and a bill ordered to be brought in
thereupon.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, April 11.
PREVENTIVE SERVICE.] The Earl of
Darnley rose to bring under the consider-
ation of their lordships, the subject of
which he had last night given notice.
Although, the noble earl said, the late la-
mentable occurrence on the coast of Kent,
attended with the loss of a valuable life,
had been the immediate cause of his call-
ing their lordships' attention to the sub-
ject, this was not the only circumstance
which had influenced him, nor was that
the first time he had felt an interest in the
matter. It was not so much the particu-
lar transaction he complained of, as the
system. He could not believe, indeed,
that such an order as the one issued by
the officer, that whenever three persons
were assembled together, and did not
answer or did not disperse, they were to
be immediately fired at (although that
order had been laid before the coroner's






15i7 Licensing System.n
be in the way of realizing fortunes, were
suddenly ruined by the credit upon
which they depended being recalled; and
the unsteadiness of prices, and the spirit
of speculation, encouraged, if not en-
gendered, by a paper currency, have re-
duced many of the tenants in different
parts of Scotland to a state of precarious
dependence on the indulgence of their
landlords, a state of things by no means
desirable for either party ; that the peti-
tioners are aware that improvement has
been accelerated by a paper currency, but
without attempting to show that a less
rapid improvement might have been desir-
able, they are satisfied that every inquir-
ing mind will perceive that such rapidity
of progress would be dearly purchased by
the sacrifice of the proverbial prudence,
economy, and patient industry of the in-
habitants of that country ; that a metallic
currency, which is the only true represen-
tative of value, by being the represen-
tative of the labour by which it is pro-
cured, can never increase nor diminish
with such rapidity as to affect the pros-
perity of the country, and a return to this
currency would, in the opinion of the pe-
titioners, be a means of lessening those
evils already experienced, as well as of
avoiding others, which, though hitherto
little known to the people of Scotland,
would, should such occur in the present
state of the circulating medium, over-
whelm the whole population, and which,
therefore, it is one of the first duties of a
wise legislature to prevent; that for these
and other reasons the petitioners view
with much satisfaction the steps already
taken by the House to restore a metallic cur-
rency in England, and with full confidence
in the wisdom and caution of the House,
pray, that similar measures may be ex-
tended to Scotland in such time and man-
ner as to the House may seem meet."
Ordered to lie on the table.

LICENSING SYSTEM-PETITION OF
DR. EDWARDS.] Mr. Hume rose to
present a petition from Thomas Edwards,
a doctor of laws, and a magistrate for the
county of Surrey, on the subject of the
present Licensing System; a subject that
must be viewed by all as one of very
great importance. The petitioner had
selected the present period, because the
hon. member for Oxford, had introduced
a bill respecting the licensing system; and
he hoped that the suggestions contained
in his petition would not be disregarded.


APRIL IS, 1826. [158
It was manifestly necessary that well.
regulated houses should be established
for the benefit of the public, and that a
proper power should be given to keep
them in a quiet and orderly state. But
an attentive perusal of the whole of the
evidence taken before the committee on
this subject showed that the existing sys-
tem, so far from having the effect of en-
couraging the establishment of well-regu-
lated houses for the public good, had, on
the contrary, been a cloak for the es-
tablishment of houses of the worst de-
scription. They all knew, that when a
licence was granted, it raised the value of
a house from 5001. to 1,0001. The profits
on money thus laid out were very great;
and were raised by charging the public
exorbitant prices for beer and spirits.
It was a very lamentable thing to find a
magistrate speaking, as the petitioner did,
of the conduct pursued by his brother
magistrates in granting licences. He
stated that, on licensing-day, he had
often witnessed a system of jobbing, alto-
gether disreputable to persons holding the
situation of magistrates. There were
twenty public houses in some streets,
while in others there was not one, because
no person had taken the precaution to
induce the magistrates to grant a licence.
Now, he could not see why any licence
should be required for a public-house
more than for a house in which tea and
coffee were retailed. The person who
wished to obtain a licence for the sale of
tea and coffee produced his money, and
the licence was granted as a matter of
course; and if the same practice were
adopted with respect to persons who sold
beer and spirits, it would be attended with
great convenience. If any abuses were
discovered, the law in existence was
sufficiently powerful to put them down.
The petitioner was anxious, and so was
he, to do away with the necessity of ap-
plying to magistrates for licences, and
thus to put an end to the jobbing system
which at present prevailed.
The petition was then read, setting
forth,
That although the provisions of the
present act which regulates the licensing
of ale-houses may, with some modifica-
tions, be sufficient in the country divisions,
where the public-houses are thinly scat-
tered, where irregularities are less likely
to occur, and, above all, where the weight
and influence of the owners of public-
houses are of small amount compared with






159J HOUSE OF COMMONS,
the rank and independence of the country
gentlemen who act as magistrates, a total
change of system in the divisions adjoin-
ing London is requisite to prevent those
abuses which were proved in evidence in
the years 1816 and 1817, before the com-
mittee of your honourable House, called
the Police committee.
That in a single division, in the
vicinity of London, the number of public-
houses licenced by a few individuals
greatly exceeds the total amount licenced
by all the other magistrates in the county;
and that the temptations which the pa-
tronage holds out for mercenary charac-
ters to endeavour to get into the com-
mission of the peace are enormous, as
the grant of a licence immediately raises
the saleable value of a house five hundred
pounds and upwards. That from eight
hundred to a thousand public-houses are
licenced in a single division adjoining Lon-
don; that sometimes twenty public-houses
are licenced in a single street; that in
other places they are licenced in clusters,
and even next door to each other, with-
out the smallest regard to the legal
principle of public utility, for which ob-
ject alone the power to grant licences was
placed in the hands of magistrates; and
that this excess is stated by independent
magistrates and publicans, in their evi-
dence before the Police committee, to be
one of the greatest causes of crime, as it
is impossible for the publicans to live by
fair means where they are so numerous,
and equally impossible to have a sufficient
watch over their conduct.
"That although the legislature has been
anxious to exclude brewers and distillers
from acting as licencers, the independent
magistrates, in the divisions adjoining
London, find themselves associated, at
licencing sessions, with brewers, back-
makers, brick-makers, timber merchants,
and other tradesmen, who are identified
in interest with the owners of old, and the
applicants for licences to new, public-
houses, and that it is impossible so to
multiply the exclusions as to destroy per-
sonal interest and private connection.
"That although the licence is a per-
sonal grant to the publican of one year's
duration, requiring only that the House
should be specified in order to secure the
convenience to a neighbourhood where it
is alleged to be wanted, a most per-
nicious patronage has been created, by
treating the licence as an appendage to
the house for the benefit of the owner,


Licensing System.


[160


in consequence of which, the owner is en-
abled to extort an oppressive rent from
the publican, or to compel him to take
his beer of a particular brewer, to the
great injury of those respectable brewers,
whose superior liquors would, under other
circumstances, command a preference, and
to the ultimate ruin of the publicans,
while the public are obliged, by this mo-
nopoly, to drink beer of an inferior quality,
and at such a price as will cover the ex-
travagant rents and premiums given for
houses which magistrates thus endow with
perpetual privilege. That, among other
evils, this perpetuity of privilege has the
effect of preventing the victuallers' trade
from finding its natural and wholesome
level; for, as long as the owner of the
privileged house can find enough on the
premises to satisfy his exorbitant and
unjust rent, extorted from another man's
licence, or can hope to obtain a large pre-
mium from a brewer by threatening to
sell to an opponent, it will be his policy to
draw in successive victims, and to keep
his house in a trade which must inevitably
bring his tenant to a gaol. That it is in
evidence that some of these houses will
change their tenants three or four times in
a year.
'" That it is in evidence before the
Police committee, that the worst-con-
ducted houses are often the most valuable
on account of the increased consumption;
and that when an unprincipled owner has
put in an unprincipled tenant to push a
profligate trade, licensing magistrates
have protected the interests of the owner,
Iand perpetuated the licence by allowing
the tenant to transfer as soon as a com-
plaint has been made or threatened. That
it is in evidence before the Police com-
mittee, that when parish officers and re-
spectable inhabitants have attended to
establish their complaints on the day fixed
by the magistrates themselves for the
hearing, they have been immediately
silenced, and told by the magistrates that
a new man had been since put in under a
transfer, and that the complaints which
applied to the former tenant could not be
heard against the new one. That in re-
ference to this practice, the Police com-
mittee, in their report to your honourable
House, have observed, that the most
disorderly and licentious conduct of
houses belonging to particular owners does
not insure the loss of licence; but that if
at last, from the notorious infamy of the
parties complained against, the magistrates






155) HOUSE OF COMMONS,
lowering the duties, he did not think that
practicable; and if a sufficient revenue
were not obtained by indirect, it must be
got by direct taxation. The service had
more effectually answered the object than
had been expected. The noble earl said,
that smuggling was not prevented; and
allowing the correctness of the remark,
though it was not correct to the full ex-
tent, still he should contend that it had
been changed, and was now confined to
the narrow part of the channel. In his
own neighbourhood he could say that it had
been nearly extinguished. It was perhaps,
the highest praise he could give the dis-
tinguished officer, now no more, with
whom the system had originated, that he
had carried it into execution with so much
mildness, that even in the neighbourhood
where smuggling had been extinguished,
he was generally beloved. He never had
known an individual whose services had
given more general satisfaction, or whose
loss was more deeply regretted. He
could not pay a higher tribute to any
public officer, than to say that he had
executed such arduous duties, in such a
place, and among such men, as to give
general satisfaction. He had no objection
to the motion of the noble earl; but he
had no doubt that he would find, when
the returns were before their lordships,
that the service was much more effectual
than he now supposed. There must be
occasional hardships with any system of
police, whether it were military, constabu-
lary, or naval; and these hardships and
inconveniences were the price that was
paid for its advantages.
The motion was agreed to.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, April 13.
BANKING SYSTEM IN SCOTLAND.] Mr.
Huskisson said, the House had received a
great number of petitions, praying that
no alteration should be made in the cur-
rency of Scotland, and it now became
his duty to present one of a different
description. The petition which he held
in his hand pointed out the great benefit
which Scotland would derive, if the same
system, with respect to the currency,
which prevailed in England, were applied
to the former country. It was not neces-
sary, nor would it be regular, to enter at
present into the argument of the peti-
tioners, which appeared to him to be very
forcible. They particularly applied them-


Banking System in Scotland.


[156


selves to the agriculturists of that part of
the united kingdom, and demanded whe-
ther their best interests would not be
served by avoiding those fluctuations of
price which must necessarily occur, until
the present system was put an end to.
He would offer no opinion on the subject,
as it was at present under consideration in
a committee of that House; but should
merely discharge his duty by presenting
the petition. It was from the town of
Dunse, and was signed by 120 respectable
inhabitants.
The petition was then read, setting
forth, That it appears to the petitioners
that where the medium of exchange in
any country consists entirely or princi-
pally of Bank-notes, a power is possessed
by the issuers of these notes to increase or
diminish the circulation at their option;
a power which may seriously affect the
fortune of every individual in the state,
and which, therefore, ought not to be pos-
sessedby any set of men whatever; and late
experience has too clearlyshown that while,
in the period of confidence, such a state
of circulation gives every facility to over-
extended and gambling speculation, so
upon the occurrence of panic and embar-
rassment, the country is left without the
means of carrying on its regular business,
and distress is thereby greatly augmented ;
that the political and commercial circum-
stances of recent times have been accom-
panied with more sudden and extensive
vicissitudes in private fortunes than were
ever before witnessed, and the daily sight
of great and rapidly acquired wealth sti-
mulated the sanguine to venture every
thing in hopes of the same success, and
the salutary disgrace that used to attend
bankruptcy having almost entirely lost its
restraining effect, from its unfortunate
frequency, even the most cautious and
considerate were hurried along by the pre-
vailing current; the petitioners believe
that these evils were much increased, and
have been continued, by the fluctuations
of the currency; that the petitioners, al-
though removed from the great commer-
cial and manufacturing districts, have yet
not only felt the swell caused by the dis-
tant storm, but in the agricultural county
in which they reside have seen many in-
stances of the bad effects of the variations
in the price of the produce of land, and the
occasional extension and contraction of
accommodation by the banks, by which
speculators who were engaged in exten-
sive improvements, and who appeared to






161] Petition of Dr. Edwards. APRIL 13, 1826. [(t1
are compelled to interfere, the least possi- information is of very rare application,
ble punishment is inflicted, the tenant is from the difficulty of proving the corrupt
shifted, a real or fraudulent transfer is motive. That it appears from the evi-
made, and a newlandlord takes possession, dence before the Police committee, and
to follow the old practices with aggra- it is known to your petitioner from other
vated misconduct. sources, that contests for opposite prin-
That Mr. Bowles, in his evidence ciples have occasionally taken place; but
before the Police committee, as a licens- that the disinterested magistrates, who, in
ing magistrate of the Brixton East half- the neighbourhood of London, are much
hundred, states that a house was licensed occupied with their own professional or
in an improper situation, at Camberwell, commercial pursuits, cannot spare the
as le believes, through the influence of a time necessary to enable them to coun-
brewer, who held the lease, and that, after teract the artifices and concealments of
repeated misconduct, the publican was interested parties on the several transfer
allowed to save the licence from for- days, and at licensing sessions in divisions,
feiture, and himself from punishment, by where from eight hundred to a thousand
a transfer-a majority of the magistrates houses are licensed.
stating that under counsel's advice, which That the existing act has left all those
they had taken, they had no discretion or abuses which were proved before the Po-
power to refuse a transfer under any cir- lice committee completely untouched and
cumstances. open to repetition, and that your peti-
That, at the licensing session, in the tioner is fully convinced that it is imprac.
same division, in 1824,, your petitioner ticable, by any legislative provisions, to
had occasion, with others, to oppose an guard against the most serious injury to
attempt, supported by the votes of seven the public interest and the public morals
magistrates, to allow a publican, in a under the present system, in the divisions
neighbourhood greatly overstocked with adjoining London. That he humbly sub-
public-houses, to transfer his interest to mits to your honourable House, that the
another, after a complaint which was fatal separation of the patronage in those di-
to his own renewal had been fully es- visions from the magisterial authority, by
tablished, and the same advice was again which the patronized are now expected
adverted to; but when such advice-viz. to be controlled, can alone preserve the
the opinion of sir Samuel Shepherd-was unpaid magistracy from the hazard of that
produced and read to the end, it appeared degradation and disgrace which must al-
that his advice was, that the magistrates ways attach to practices such as were
had a discretion, and Mr. Bowles had proved before the Police committee.
therefore been misled. That in the course That if it could be supposed that ma-
of the same proceeding, in 1824, the pub- gistrates derive any additional respect
lican applied to transfer, after he had from the exercise of extensive discra
notice that the complaint had been en- tional powers, the suburban magistrates,
tered, and it was on two several days pro- by availing themselves of their right,
posed to take the application respecting as country magistrates, to attend the
the transfer into consideration, without licensing sessions of the nearest country
waitingjto hearjthe complainant's evidence, divisions (to which, since the institution
on the ground that, in the case of a of police-officers, they more properly
transfer, the magistrates had nothing to belong), may still participate in a discre-
do with the misconduct of the party tional power, more abundant than that
transferring. That on one of those days, which is enjoyed in the more remote
a bye-law of the division was produced, divisions ,by country gentlemen, where
which enabled an owner to put forward a the public-houses are but few.
new man at the same session, whenever "That your petitioner further most
the licence should be forfeited by mis- humbly submits, that if the trade were
conduct. thrown open in the divisions adjoining
That it is in evidence before the said London, under strong penalties for mis-
committee, that active and respectable conduct, and good securities, the public
parish officers have ceased to complain of houses would be less numerous and more
disorderly houses, finding it to be useless; respectable-the public would obtain their
and that respectable magistrates have beer at a lower price and of a better
withdrawn, in despair, from licensing ses- quality; while the respectable brewers
sions. That the proceeding by criminal would no longer be subject to the hard-
VOL. XV. M






163] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
ship of being compelled to purchase pri-
vileged houses at large premiums, to
preserve a trade which, under a better
system, the superiority of their beers
would command, and to the mortification
of seeing their property, thus compul-
sively purchased, placed at the mercy of
tradesmen acting as licensing magistrates,
whom, if they do not employ, they may
offend-of tradesmen who are also the
fathers of brewers, their rivals, and of
tradesmen who supply the speculating
builders of new houses with materials, and
the payment of whose bills may depend
on the speculator being able to obtain a
license for an opposition house to that
which the system has already obliged the
brewer to purchase, at a large premium.
Your petitioner, therefore, most humbly
implores your honourable House to take
such measures in respect of the premises
as to your wisdom shall seem meet."
Ordered to lie on the table.

REPRESENTATION OF EDINBURGI.]
Mr. Abercromby rose, in pursuance of
notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill
" to amend and alter the Representation
of the city of Edinburgh." He observed,
that before he engaged in this cause, he
had given the subject his most anxious
attention, and had satisfied himself of the
reality and magnitude of the evils, and of
the facility with which a remedy might be
applied to them. When he formerly pre-
sented a petition from Edinburgh in
favour of an alteration in the representa-
tion, he had entered into a detail of all
that related to the composition of that
small body called the town council. The
population of Edinburgh was above
100,000, and the electors of a represen-
tative for this population were only
thirty-three, nineteen of whom were
actually chosen by their predecessors,
and would in their turn appoint their suc-
cessors. The object in view had been
met by general arguments and fears as to
remote consequences, to reply to which
he would now address himself. The
main argument relied upon was this:-
that under the pretence of seeking a fair
and free representation for Edinburgh,
the real purpose was, to obtain a substan-
tial parliamentary reform ; and that if the
change were made with regard to Edin-
burgh, it ought also to be extended to
Glasgow, Aberdeen, and other places.
He fairly admitted that his view was,
that reform in Scotland ought not to be


Representation of.1dinburgh.


[164


limited to the capital of Scotland only,
and he was well aware that he should be
opposed by all the high-mettled anti-re-
formers, who took fire at the smallest
innovation. To reason with such persons
would be hopeless: but he would appeal,
with more expectation of success, to
another class, who had been scared from
conceding this moderate relief, by the
daring assertion, that the slightest ap-
proach to reform was tantamount to re-
volution. He would tell this class with
all sincerity, that he respected their
prudent caution, and believed them well
intentioned, and accessible to reason.
He tendered to the House a proposition
for legislating only in the single case of
Edinburgh, because it was distinguished
from all others in this respect; namely,
that the town council of that city had the
power of choosing a member of parlia-
ment, without being troubled with the
assistance of any contributary boroughs.
Such was not the case with other cities
or towns of Scotland. If the effect of
opening the representation of Scotland
should be to prove that the election of a
capable, independent, and honest member
gave content to the people and softened
asperities, under the hope that parliament
would hereafter, in its wisdom, extend
the principle to other places, then he
should have the opportunity of saying
that the experiment had answered, and
that experience was in his favour, for
accomplishing a gradual and progressive
improvement in Scotch representation.
If, on the other hand, it should turn out
that the supposed amelioration led to
riots and tumult, that it created unrea-
sonable desires and unjustifiable demands,
those who now resisted all alteration
would then also be armed with experience
in their favour. One strong recommen-
dation of the plan of reform which he
should suggest was, that it would be slow
and gradual. The numerous body of
persons whom he should designate as
reformers in Scotland, took a sound view
of the subject: they had the good sense
not to complain that Edinburgh was se-
lected in the first instance, because they
were aware, that if the House refused it
to the capital, it would be vain for other
parts of the country to entertain a hope
of redress. They felt, also, that the
course now taken was safe and prudent,
since it afforded parliament an oppor-
tunity to pause, or even to recall an act
it had imprudently sanctioned. Another




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