• TABLE OF CONTENTS
HIDE
 Title Page
 Table of Contents
 Half Title
 June, 1820
 July, 1820
 August, 1820
 September, 1820
 Index to debates in the House of...
 Index to debates in the House of...
 Index of names - House of...
 Index of names - House of...














Group Title: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Title: The parliamentary debates
ALL VOLUMES CITATION THUMBNAILS PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00073533/00002
 Material Information
Title: The parliamentary debates
Uniform Title: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Physical Description: 20 v. : ; 25 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Great Britain -- Parliament
Hansard, T. C ( Thomas Curson ), 1776-1833
Publisher: Published under the superintendence of T.C. Hansard
Place of Publication: London
Publication Date: 1820-1829
 Subjects
Subject: Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Great Britain -- 1820-1830   ( lcsh )
 Notes
Dates or Sequential Designation: New ser., v. 1 (1820)-v. 20 (1829).
Numbering Peculiarities: Covers Mar. 1820-Feb./Mar. 1829.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00073533
Volume ID: VID00002
Source Institution: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 07655703
lccn - sn 85062629
 Related Items
Preceded by: Parliamentary debates for the year 1803 to the present time
Succeeded by: Hansard's parliamentary debates

Table of Contents
    Title Page
        Title Page 1
        Title Page 2
    Table of Contents
        Table of Contents 1
        Table of Contents 2
        Table of Contents 3
        Table of Contents 4
        Table of Contents 5
        Table of Contents 6
        Table of Contents 7
        Table of Contents 8
        Table of Contents 9
        Table of Contents 10
    Half Title
        Half Title
    June, 1820
        Page 1-2
        House of Lords - Tuesday, June 27th
            Page 1-2
            Page 3-4
            Page 5-6
            Page 7-8
            Page 9-10
            Page 11-12
            Page 13-14
            Page 15-16
            Page 17-18
            Page 19-20
            Page 21-22
            Page 23-24
            Page 25-26
            Page 27-28
            Page 29-30
            Page 31-32
            Page 33-34
            Page 35-36
            Page 37-38
            Page 39-40
            Page 41-42
            Page 43-44
            Page 45-46
            Page 47-48
        House of Commons - Wednesday, June 28
            Page 49-50
            Page 51-52
            Page 53-54
            Page 55-56
            Page 57-58
            Page 59-60
            Page 61-62
            Page 63-64
            Page 65-66
            Page 67-68
            Page 69-70
            Page 71-72
            Page 73-74
            Page 75-76
            Page 77-78
            Page 79-80
            Page 81-82
            Page 83-84
            Page 85-86
            Page 87-88
            Page 89-90
            Page 91-92
            Page 93-94
            Page 95-96
            Page 97-98
            Page 99-100
            Page 101-102
            Page 103-104
        House of Commons - Thursday, June 29
            Page 105-106
            Page 107-108
            Page 109-110
            Page 111-112
            Page 113-114
            Page 115-116
            Page 117-118
            Page 119-120
            Page 121-122
        House of Commons - Friday, June 30
            Page 123-124
            Page 125-126
            Page 127-128
            Page 129-130
            Page 131-132
            Page 133-134
            Page 135-136
            Page 137-138
    July, 1820
        Page 139-140
        House of Lords - Monday, July 3
            Page 139-140
        House of Commons - Monday, July 3
            Page 141-142
            Page 143-144
            Page 145-146
            Page 147-148
            Page 149-150
            Page 151-152
            Page 153-154
            Page 155-156
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            Page 159-160
            Page 161-162
            Page 163-164
            Page 165-166
        House of Lords - Tuesday, July 4
            Page 167-168
            Page 169-170
            Page 171-172
            Page 173-174
        House of Commons - Tuesday, July 4
            Page 175-176
            Page 177-178
            Page 179-180
            Page 181-182
            Page 183-184
            Page 185-186
            Page 187-188
            Page 189-190
            Page 191-192
        House of Lords - Wednesday, July 5
            Page 193-194
            Page 195-196
            Page 197-198
            Page 199-200
            Page 201-202
            Page 203-204
            Page 205-206
            Page 207-208
            Page 209-210
            Page 211-212
            Page 213-214
        House of Commons - Wednesday, July 5
            Page 215-216
            Page 217-218
            Page 219-220
            Page 221-222
            Page 223-224
            Page 225-226
            Page 227-228
        House of Lords - Thursday, July 6
            Page 229-230
            Page 231-232
            Page 233-234
            Page 235-236
            Page 237-238
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            Page 249-250
            Page 251-252
            Page 253-254
            Page 255-256
            Page 257-258
        House of Commons - Thursday, July 6
            Page 259-260
            Page 261-262
            Page 263-264
            Page 265-266
            Page 267-268
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            Page 287-288
            Page 289-290
        House of Commons - Friday, July 7
            Page 291-292
            Page 293-294
            Page 295-296
            Page 297-298
            Page 299-300
            Page 301-302
        House of Lords - Monday, July 10
            Page 303-304
            Page 305-306
            Page 307-308
            Page 309-310
            Page 311-312
            Page 313-314
            Page 315-316
        House of Commons - Monday, July 10
            Page 317-318
            Page 319-320
            Page 321-322
            Page 323-324
            Page 325-326
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            Page 329-330
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            Page 345-346
            Page 347-348
            Page 349-350
            Page 351-352
            Page 353-354
            Page 355-356
        House of Lords - Tuesday, July 11
            Page 357-358
            Page 359-360
        House of Commons - Tuesday, July 11
            Page 361-362
            Page 363-364
            Page 365-366
            Page 367-368
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            Page 387-388
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            Page 393-394
        House of Commons - Wednesday, July 12
            Page 395-396
            Page 397-398
            Page 399-400
            Page 401-402
            Page 403-404
            Page 405-406
            Page 407-408
            Page 409-410
            Page 411-412
            Page 413-414
            Page 415-416
            Page 417-418
        House of Lords - Thursday, July 13
            Page 419-420
            Page 421-422
        House of Commons - Thursday, July 13
            Page 423-424
            Page 425-426
        House of Lords - Friday, July 14
            Page 427-428
            Page 429-430
            Page 431-432
            Page 433-434
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        House of Commons - Friday, July 14
            Page 471-472
            Page 473-474
            Page 475-476
        House of Commons - Saturday, July 15
            Page 477-478
            Page 479-480
            Page 481-482
            Page 483-484
        House of Lords - Monday, July 17
            Page 485-486
            Page 487-488
            Page 489-490
            Page 491-492
            Page 493-494
        House of Commons - Monday, July 17
            Page 495-496
            Page 497-498
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            Page 519-520
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        House of Lords - Tuesday, July 18
            Page 523-524
            Page 525-526
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            Page 529-530
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            Page 537-538
        House of Commons - Tuesday, July 18
            Page 539-540
            Page 541-542
            Page 543-544
            Page 545-546
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            Page 549-550
        House of Lords - Wednesday, June 19
            Page 551-552
            Page 553-554
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            Page 567-568
        House of Lords - Thursday, July 20
            Page 569-570
            Page 571-572
        House of Lords - Monday, July 24
            Page 573-574
            Page 575-576
            Page 577-578
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        House of Commons - Monday, July 24
            Page 585-586
        House of Lords - Tuesday, July 25
            Page 587-588
        House of Commons - Tuesday, July 25
            Page 589-590
            Page 591-592
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            Page 605-606
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    August, 1820
        Page 611-612
        House of Lords - Thursday, August 17
            Page 611-612
            Page 613-614
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        House of Lords - Friday, August 18
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        House of Lords - Saturday, August 19
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        House of Lords - Monday, August 21
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        House of Commons - Monday, August 21
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        House of Lords - Tuesday, August 22
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        House of Lords - Wednesday, August 23
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        House of Lords - Thursday, August 24
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        House of Lords - Friday, August 25
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        House of Lords - Saturday, August 26
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        House of Lords - Monday, August 28
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        House of Lords - Tuesday, August 29
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    September, 1820
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    Index to debates in the House of Commons
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Full Text



THE


PARLIAMENTARY



DEBATES:


FORMING A CONTINUATION OF THE WORK ENTITLED

" THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY OF ENGLAND

FROM THE EARLIEST PERIOD TO THE YEAR 1803."


PUBLISHED UNDER THE SUPERINTENDENCE OF
T. C. HANSARD.


COMMENCING WITH TIE ACCESSION OF GEORGE IV.



VO L. II.

COMPRISING THE PERIOD
FROM
THE TWENTY-SEVENTH DAY OF JUNE a
TO
TIE SEVENTH DAY OF SEPTEMB 1r,1820.


LONDON: '

PRINTED BY 'I. C. HANSARD, PETERBOROUGb-OOURT, FLEET-STREET;
FOR BALDWIN, CRADOCK, AND JOY; J. BOOKERI; LONGMAN, HURST, REES, ORME,
AND BROWN; J. M. RICHARDSON; BLACK, KINGSBURY, PARBURY, AND ALLEN;
J. HATCHARD & SON; J. RIDGWAY & SONS; E. JEFFERY & SON; RODWELL &
MARTIN; R. H. EV4NS; BUDD AND CALKIN; J. BOOTH; AND T. C. HANSARD.


1821.













TABLE OF CONTENTS

TO

VOLUME II.

NE W SERIES.





I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OFr IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERns
LoRDs. V. PETITIONS.
II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF
COMMONS. VI REPORTS.
III. KING'S MESSAGES. VII. LISTS.




I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
1820. Page
June 27. Earl Grey's Motion for discharging the order for the meeting of
the Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the Conduct
of the Queen ............................ ......................... 1
July 3. Report of the Committee on Foreign Trade ....................... 139
4. Report of the Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the
Conduct of the Queen .................................. ............ 167
5. Alien Bill................................. ......................... 19
Petition from the Queen desiring to be heard by her Counsel on
the subject matter of the Report of the Secret Committee on
the Papers relating to the Conduct of her Majesty............... 195
Bill of Pains and Penalties against her Majesty brought in by
the Earl of Liverpool, and read the first time.................... 207
6. Petition from the Queen protesting against the proceedingagainst
her by Bill, and desiring that her Counsel may be admitted to
state her Claims at the Bar of their Lordships ................. 230
Mr. Brougham, her Majesty's Attorney-general, heard in sup-
port of the Claims of her Majesty................................... 232
Mr. Brougham further heard on the Mode of Proceeding to be
had on the Bill of Pains and Penalties, and on the Time when
those Proceedings should take place ............................. 236
Mr. Denman, her Majesty's Solicitor-general, heard to the same
points ..............................................**....* 248
10. Motion for reading the Bill of Pains and Penalties against her
Majesty a second time on the 17th of August.................... 304
11. Petition from the Queen desiring to be furnished with a List of
the Witnesses to be examined against her .......,,.......... 35S


r







TABLE OF CONTENTS.


1820. Page
13. Marriage Act Amendment Bill......................................... 419
14. Lord Erskine's Motion, That a List of Witnesses, intended to be
examined in support of the Bill of Pains and Penalties, be
forthwith delivered to her Majesty's Legal Advisers ............ 428
17. The Earl of Lauderdale's Motion for Papers relating to Parga
and the Ionian Islands ........................................... 485
Marriage Act Amendment Bill ...................................... 489
Criminal Law-Privately Stealing Bill................................ 491
18. Criminal Law-Capital Felonies Repeal Bill ....................... 524
State of the Navy ................................................... 5..
A lien Bill ................................................................. 529
19. Petition from the City of London praying the House to reject
the Bill of Pains and Penalties against her Majesty ........... 55 I
Marriage Act Amendment Bill ...................................... 553
20. Irish Court of Chancery Bill............................................ 569
24. Petition from the Queen desiring to have a Specification of the
Places in which the Criminal Acts are charged to have been
committed .... ........................................ 574

Aug. 17. PROCEEDINGS ON THE BILL OF PAINS AND PENALTIES
AGAINST HER MAJESTY .................................... 612
Motion by the Duke of Leinster, That the order of the
day for the second reading of the Bill be rescinded ... 612
Debate on the Earl of Liverpool's Motion, that the Coun-
sel be called in .................................................. 613
Mr. Brougham, her Majesty's Attorney General, prays to
be heard in this Stage of the Proceeding against the
Principle of the Bill............................................ 634
The House agree that her Majesty's Counsel may urge
their Objections to the Principle of the Bill, either at
that time, or after the Evidence should be closed ...... 638
Mr. Brougham heard against the Principle of the Bill...... 638

IS. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties ......... 651
Mr. Denman, her Majesty's Solicitor-general, heard against
the Principle of the Bill ..................................... 651
Mr. Attorney-general (Sir Robert Gifford) heard in sup-
port of the Principle of the Bill ............................ 674
Mr. Solicitor-general (Sir John Copley) heard in support
of the Principle of the Bill .................................. 689
Mr. Brougham heard in Reply ................................. 698

19. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties............ 710
Debate on Lord King's Motion, That it is not necessary
for the Public Safety, or the Security of the Go-
vernment, that the Bill of Pains and Penalties against
her Majesty should pass into a law ....................... 710
Mr. Attorney General heard in part to open the Allega-
tions of the Bill ........................................... 741

21. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties........... 774
Mr. Attorney-general further and fully heard to open
the Allegations of the Bill ..............,......,.......... 774







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Teodoro Majoochi examined by Mr. Solicitor-general...... 805
~,. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties............ 837
Teodoro Majoochi further examined by Mr. Solicitor-ge-
neral ............................................................... 837
- - cross-examined by Mr. Brougham...... 841

23. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties ........ 869
Teodoro Majoochi further Cross-examined by Mr.
Brougham...................................................... 871
- - re-examined by Mr. Solicitor-general 874
- - examined by the Lords ................ 881
Gaetano Paturzo examined by Mr. Attorney-general ...... 889
- - cross-examined by Mr. Denman ......... 896
- - examined by the Lords .................. 900

21. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties ........ 907
Vincenzo Gargiulo called in and sworn....................... 907
Mr. Williams, one of her Majesty's Counsel, submits, that
the Witness should be asked, Whether the Oath admi-
nistered to him was that which was most binding on his
conscience ? ...................................................... 907
Mr. Brougham heard in support of this Argument........ 910
Question thereupon put to the Judges ...................... 913
Lord Chief Justice Abbott delivers the Opinion of the
Judges .......................................... ........... 914
Vincenzo Gargiulo examined by Mr. Solicitor-general ... 915
- - cross-examined by Mr. Williams...... 923
- - re-examined by Mr. Solicitor-general 928
- - examined by the Lords................ 928
Teodoro Majoochi again cross-examined by Mr. Brougham 934
- - examined by the Lords ................. 937
Francesco Birollo examined by Mr. Parke ............... 937

25. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties........... 910
Francesco Birollo further examined by Mr. Parke ......... 942
- - cross-examined by Mr. Brougham ...... 944
- examined by the Lords .................... 946
Samuel George Pechcll, esq. Post Captain in the Royal
Navy, examined by Mr. Attorney-general .............. 948
- - - - examined by the Lords... 950
Thomas Briggs, esq. Post Captain in the Royal Navy, ex-
amined by Mr. Attorney-general .......................... 951
- - cross-examined by Mr. Denman ... 953
- - examined by the Lords ............... 954
Pietro Cuchi examined by Mr. Solicitor-general.......... 958
- cross-examined by Mr. Williams.............. 961
- examined by the Lords ....................... 966
Mcidge Barbara Kress examined by Mr. Attorney-ge-
neral ............................................................... 969

26. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties ......... 972






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Meidge Babara Kress further examined by Mr. Attorney-
general .................................................... ..... 97
-- - cross-examined by Mr. Brougham 975
Debate on the Mode of cross-examining the Witness...... 983
The Counsel against the Bill requested by the House to
state, whether they were desirous of proposing any and
what, departure in these Proceedings from the usual
course of Cross-examination ............................. 994

28. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties............ 997
Debate on a Motion made by Lord Manners, That the
Lord Chancellor be directed to instruct the Counsel
against the Bill, that if at any time they should be desir-
ous to re-examine a Witness already cross-examined
they must state a Case as the ground of that Re-exami-
nation ................................. .................... 997
Counsel called in and informed, that, It having been pro-
posed to withdraw the permission to her Majesty's
Counsel, of reserving their Cross-examination, and to
direct that they should proceed in their Cross-examina-
tion in the usual course, but with a full claim, on cir-
cumstances or facts not now known to them coming to
their knowledge, to call back those witnesses for further
Cross-examination" if they were desirous of being heard
against this proposed mode of proceeding in cross-exa-
mination, the House would be ready to hear them ...... 1016
Mr. Brougham heard against the proposed mode of pro-
ceeding in Cross-examination ............................... 1016
Mr. Denman heard against the proposed mode of proceed-
ing in cross-examination...................................... 1027
Mr. Attorney-general heard in support of the proposed
mode of proceeding in Cross-examination................ 1034
Mr. Solicitor-general heard in support of the proposed
mode of proceeding in Cross-examination................. 1037
Mr. Brougham heard in Reply ............................... 1043

29. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties ......... 1049
Debate on the Earl of Harrowby's Motion, That under
the Special circumstances of the Case, the House
do consent to the Counsel for the Queen proceed-
ing in their Cross-examination in the manner they
proposed, namely, that they may be at liberty to cross-
examine Witnesses immediately after the Examination
in chief, to such extent as they may think proper, with
liberty to call back the Witnesses, at a future time, for
such further cross-examination as they may desire"'...... 1049
Debate on Lord Erskine's Motion, That the Counsel for
the Bill be instructed to deliver to her Majesty's Coun-
sel a List of the remaining Witnesses, together with a
specification of the Names and Places to which their
Evidence is to apply" ......................................... 1066
Meidge Barbara Kress further cross-examined by Mr.
Brougham ......................................................... 1077
.- - - -examined by the Lords............ 1085
Giuscppe Blanche examined by Mr. Parke ............. 1087







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
- - cross-examined by Mr. Denman ...... 1089
- re-examined by Mr. Parke............... 1091

30. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties ........ 1092
Paolo Raggazoni examined by Mr. Solicitor-general ...... 1092
- - cross-examined by Dr. Lushington ...... 1095
- - re-examined by Mr. Solicitor-general ... 1098
Gerolamo Mejani examined by Mr. Parke................... 1099
- - cross-examined by Mr. Tindal ............ 1100
- - re-examined by Mr. Parke................. 1103
Paolo Raggazoni again examined by the Lords ............ 110
Paolo Oggioni examined by Mr. Attorney-general ........ 1104
- cross-examined by Mr. Wilde................. 1105
- re-examined by Mr. Attorney-general ...... 1108
- examined by the Lords ....................... 1109
Louisa Demont examined by Mr. Solicitor-general......... 1111

51. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties ......... 1126
Louisa Demont further examined by Mr. Solicitor-gene-
ral .............................. ................................. 1126

Sept. 1. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties ......... 1157
Louisa Demont cross-examined by Mr. Williams............ 1157
Questions submitted to the Judges, Whether in the courts
below, a party on Cross-examination would be allowed
to represent, in the statement of a question, the Contents
of a Letter," &c. ............................................. 1183
Lord Chief Justice Abbott delivers the Opinions of the
Judges ......................................... ............... 11 3
Question submitted to the Judges, Whether, when a wit-
ness is cross-examined, and upon the production of a
Letter to the Witness under cross-examination, the
Witness admits that lie wrote that letter, the Witness can
be examined in the courts below, whether he did or did
not make statements, &c." ................................... 1191
Lord Chief Justice Abbott delivers the Opinions of the
Judges ....................................................... 1191
Louisa Demont further cross-examined by Mr. Williams 1193

2. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties.......... 1195
Louisa Demont further cross-examined by Mr. Williams 119(
- - re-examined by Mr. Solicitor-general ... 120(
- - examined by the Lords ............... 1211

4. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties ......... 1221
Copies of two Letters written by Louisa Demont.......... 1221
Luigi Galdini examined by Mr. Parke ....................... 1233
- cross-examined by Mr. Tindal ............... 13
- re-examined by Mr. Parke .................... 127
- examined by theLords............. .... ..... 122.
Alessandro Finetti examined by Mr. Attorney-general ... 12:39
Domenico Brusa examined by Mr. Parke .................... 1212
VOL. II. b







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Antonio Bianchi examined by Mr. Attorney-general ...... 1244
- examined by the Lords.................... 1245
Giovanni Lucini examined by Mr. Parke .................... 1246
- cross-examined by Mr. Denman............ 1247
- examined by the Lords....................... 1247
Carlo Rancatti examined by Mr. Attorney-general......... 1247
- -cross-examined by Mr. Williams........... 1249
Francesco Cassina examined by Mr. Parke ................ 1249
- - cross-examined by Mr. Denman......... 1250
Giuseppe Restelli examined by Mr. Solicitor-general...... 1250
S- - cross-examined by Mr. Denman ......... 1252
- -examined by the Lords................. 1258
Giuseppe Galli examined by Mr. Parke ............... ... 1258
- cross-examined by Mr. Williams............ 1260
- examined by the Lords....................... 1261
Giuseppe Dell'Orto examined by Mr. Solicitor-general 1262
- - cross-examined by Mr. Tindal ...... 1263
Giuseppe Guggiari examined by Mr. Parke................ 1263
- - cross-examined by Mr. Wilde ......... 1264
- re-examined by Mr. Parke ............ 1265
- examined by the Lords ................. 1265

5. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties ........ 1266
Giuseppe Sacchi examined by Mr. Attorney-general ...... 1266
- cross-examined by Mr. Brougham ......... 1275
Question submitted to the Judges, Whether, according
to the established practice of the Courts below, Counsel
cross-examining are entitled, if the Counsel on the
other side object to it, to ask a Witness whether he has
made representations of a particular nature, not specify-
ing in his question, whether the question refers to repre-
sentations in Writing or in Words......................... 1282
Lord Chief Justice Abbott delivers the Opinions of the
Judges .......................................................... 1284
Giuseppe Sacchi further cross-examined by Mr. Brougham 1287
S- - re-examined by Mr. Attorney-general...... 1289

6. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties............ 1295
Mr. Brougham complains of a Misrepresentation in "' The
Morning Post" Newspaper ................................... 1298
Questions arising out of the question put to Giuseppe
Sacchi, Upon your saying that your were a Witness,
did Marrietti make any observations upon the subject of
your being a Witness?"' submitted to the Judges......... 1296
Opinion of Mr. Justice Richardson............................. 1302
Mr. Justice Best .................................. 1302
Mr. Baron Garrow .... .......................... 1306
Mr. Justice Burrough ............................. 1306
Mr. Justice Holroyd................................ 1306
Mr. Baron Graham ................................ 1307
Lord Chief Baron Richards ...................... 1307







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Lord Chief Justice Dallas ..................... 1307
Lord Chief Justice Abbott ...................... 1307
Giuseppe Sacchi further re-examined by Mr. Attorney-
general ........................................................... 1311
- - -examined by the Lords................. 1312
Mr. Attorney-general applies to the House for an Adjourn-
ment, in consequence of the absence of certain Wit-
nesses .......................................................... 1320
Mr. Brougham heard against the Application ............... 131
Mr. Denman heard on the same side .......................... 1323
Mr. Attorney-general heard in reply........................ 132

7. Further Proceedings on the Bill of Pains and Penalties ......... 1330
Mr. Attorney-general withdraws the application for an
Adjournment in consequence of the Absence of certain
Witnesses .................................................. 1330
Teodoro Majoochi further cross-examined by Mr.
Brougham.................................................. 1331
- - --re-examined by the Attorney-general 1337
- - examined by the Lords ............... 1338
Mr. Solicitor-general sums up the Evidence in support of
the Bill ........................................ ............... 1345


II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.

1820.
June 28. Mr. Brougham's Motion for leave to bring in a Bill, for the bet-
ter Education of the Poor in England and Wales............... 49
Mr. Daly's Motion for a] Select Committee on the Disturbances
existing in Ireland ............................... ...................... 91
29. Female Offenders Whipping Bill ...................................... 105
Lord John Russell's Motionfor Papers relating to Parga......... 106
Mr. Maxwell's Motion for a Select Committee on the Distress
of the Cotton Weavers .............................................. 116
30. Metropolis Turnpike Road's Bill..................................... 123
Irish Court of Chancery Bill ......................................... 125
Criminal Laws-Privately Stealing in Shops Bill .................. 137
Linen Bounties ............................................................ 138
Marriage Act Amendment Bill ...................................... 139
July 3. Limerick Election ........................................................ 141
East India Company's Volunteers Bill ............................ 142
Complaint against the Magistracy of Carlisle....................... 143
King's Message respecting a Provision for the Royal Family ... 143
Private Property of the late King...................................... 153
King's-bench Proceedings Bill......................................... 155
Expense of the Coronation ........................................ 156i
Irish Court of Chancery Bill............................................ 167
4. Mr. Hume's Resolutions relative to the Management and Collec-
tion of the several Branches of the Revenue...................... 176
Mr. Hume's Motion respecting the Private Property of his late
Majesty .......................................... 190







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
5. Petition from Norwich for two General Gaol Deliveries ......... 216
Steam Engines Committee ............................................ 217
Petition from Hugh Campbell respecting Celtic Literature ...... 217
Scots Malt Duty............................................................ 218
Grantham Election ..................................................... 221
Irish Tithes Bill ......................................... ............ 221
Provision for the late King's Officers and Servants................ 223
The Queen-Motion to examine the Lords' Journals to ascer-
tain what Proceedings had taken place with respect to her
Majesty ............................................................. 229
6. Sir Ronald Fergusson's Motion for Papers relating to the Milan
Commission ............................................................ 259
King's Message-Papers relating to the Conduct of the Queen.., 272
Excess of Spirit's Bill .................................................. 285
Lottery Bill................................................................ 290
7. Postponement of the Coronation ..................................... 291
Sir William Manners...................................................... 291
Alien Bill ................................................................ 292
Union Duties Bill ................ .................................... 300
Military in the City of London.......................................... 303
10. Sir William Manners...................................................... 318
Ophthalmic Institution .................................................. 321
Mr. Henry d'Esterre, the Recorder of Limerick, called to the Bar
and Reprimanded by the Speaker ................................ 322
Alien Bill .......................................... ................. 324
11. Grantham Election ...................................................... 361
Ophthalmic Institution ................................................. 362
Mr. Martin of Galway's Complaint against The Morning
Herald" ............................................................ 362
Motion, that the Queen'sA attorney and Solicitor-general, though
Members of the House, should be permitted to attend the Bar
of the House of Lords as Counsel for her Majesty ............ 36
Education of the Poor Bill ............................................ 365
Lord John Russell's Motion for an Address to his Majesty to
shorten the term of Imprisonment awarded to Sir Manasseh
Lopez ................................................................ 367
Dr. Lushington's Motion relative to the Establishment of a
Bourbon Dynasty in South America ............................ 376
East India Company's Volunteers Bill ............................. 394
State of Westminster Abbey............................................ 395
12. Grantham Election-Mr. R. A. Jervis reprimanded.............. 396
Grantham Election-Resolution relative to the practice of pay-
ing money to Out-voters ............................................ 397
The Queen's Attorney and Solicitor-general, though Members
of the House, permitted to attend the Bar of the House of
Lords, as Counsel forher Majesty................. ................ 400
Audit Office ............................................................... 404
Alien Bill ............................................................... 405
Sale of Spirits Bill......................................................... 417
13. Petition from the Protestant Dissenters for the Repeal of the
Corporation and Test Acts .......................................... 423







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Barrack Agreement Bill ............................................ 425
14. Petition from Olive Serres Wilmot, stating herself to be the le-
gitimate daughter of the late Duke of Cumberland ......... 472
Mr. Hobhouse's Notice of a Motion relative to the Situation of
the Jews ....................................... 473
Barrack Agreement Bill ................................................ 473
Irish Distillery Bill .................................... ............ 474
15. Dr. Lushington's Motion for Papers relating to the Queen's
Plate ...................................................... ............ 477
Petition of Mr. James Mills respecting Borough Influence...... 479
17. Catholic Claims-Petition from the Roman Catholics of Dublin 496
Barrack Agreement Bill .................................... .... 496
Petition from the City of London praying the House to reject
the Bill of Pains and Penalties against her Majesty............... 499
Dr. Lushington's Motion for Papers relating to the Queen's
Plate o ................ ..................................... ...... 499
18. Mr. Calcraft's Motion respecting Fees in the Court of Chan-
cery ........................................................................ 540
Barrack Agreement Bill ....................... .................. .... 5 3
Report of the Committee on Foreign Trade ........................ 545
Sir William Manners discharged from Newgate................... 548
24. Mr. Wetherell'sComplaint of a Libel upon the Queen published
in Flindell's Western Luminary" ............................... 586
25. Mr. Wetherell's Complaint of a Libel upon the Queen published
in Flindell's Western Luminary" ................................. 589
Reform of Parliament-Petition of George Edmonds ........... 609
Landlords and Tenants Bill ............................................ 611
The House adjourns to the 21st of August......................... 611
Aug. 21. Bill of Pains and Penalties against her Majesty ................... 825
Lord Francis Osborne's Motion for an Address to his Majesty
praying him to prorogue the Parliament ........................ 825
The House adjourns to the 18th of September ................... 837


III. KING'S MESSAGE.

June 30. King's Message respecting a Provision for the Royal Family ... 124


IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.

July 5. Copy of the Bill of Pains and Penalties against her Majesty...... 212

V. PETITIONS.

July 5. PETITION from the Queen desiring to be heard by her Counsel
on the subject matter of the Report of the Secret
Committee on the Papers relating to the Conduct of
her Majesty ................................................... 195
6. - from the Queen protesting against the Proceeding
against her by Bill, and desiring that her Counsel may







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
be admitted to state her Claims at the Bar of their
Lordships ............................... .................... 230
II. - from the Queen desiring to be furnished with a List
of the Witnesses to be examined against her............ 358
2. - from the Queen desiring to have a Specification of
the places in which the Criminal Acts attributed to
her are charged to have been committed ............... 574

VI. REPORTS.

July 4. REPORT of the Secret Commmittee of the House of Lords on
the Papers relating to the Conduct of the Queen...... 167
25. - of the Committee of the House of Lords relative to the
Enforcement of the Attendance of Peers during great
and solemn Occasions...................................... 587


VII. LISTS.

June27. LIST of the Minority in the House of Lords, on Earl Grey's
Motion for discharging the Order for the Meeting of
the Secret Committee on the Papers relating to the
Conduct of the Queen........................................ 49
July 4. of the Minority in the House of Commons on Mr. Hume's
Resolutions relative to the Management and Collection
of the several Branches of the Revenue .................... 190
7. of the Minority in the House of Commons on the Second
reading of the Alien Bill................... ................. 00
12. of the Minority in the House of Commons on the third
reading of the Alien Bill...................................... 417
13. of the Minority in the House of Commons on the Barrack
Agreement Bill....................................... ......... 42S
14 of the Minority in the House of Lords, on Lord Erskine's
Motion, That a List of Witnesses intended to be exa-
mined in support of the Bill of Pains and Penalties, be
forthwith delivered to her Majesty's Legal Advisers ... 472
17 of the Minority in the House of Commons on the motion
for receiving the Report of the Barrack Agreement
Bill ................. ..................... .................. 498
Aug. 17. of the Minority in the House of Lords, on the Duke of
Leinster's Motion for rescinding the order of the day
for the second reading of the Bill of Pains and Penal-
ties against her M ajesty ..................................... 612
19. of the Minority in the House of Lords on Lord King's Mo-
tion, That it is not necessary for the Public Safety, or
the Security of the Government, that the Bill of Pains
and Penalties against her Majesty should pass into a
Law ............................... ......................... 740
29. of the Minority and also of the Majority on the Earl of
Harrowby's Motion, That the Counsel for the Queen
be at liberty to cross-examine Witnesses immediately
after the examination in chief, to such extent as they
may think proper, with liberty to callback he Witnesses
at a future time, for such further cross-examination, as
they may desire ......................... ................... 1075



















PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.









----



Parliamentary Debates


During the First Session of the Seventh Parliament of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, ap-
pointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-first Day
of April 1820, in the First Year of the Reign of His
Majesty King GEORGE the Fourth.


hOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, June 27th, 1820.
SECRET COMMITTEE ON THE PAPERS
RELATING TO THE CONDUCT OF THE
QUEEN.] Earl Grey, wishing to spare
their lordships the pain of unnecessary dis-
cussion on a subject on which it was most
desirable that discussion should be avoided,
rose to ask the noble earl opposite, whether
any thing had occurred since yesterday to
induce him to delay the meeting of the se-
cret committee on the papers relating to
the conduct of her majesty, which had
been so often suspended, and which was
ordered to sit to-morrow.
The Earl of Liverpool said, he had cer-
tainly, in consequence of that respectful
attention which he thought due to the feel-
ings of the House, and to the important
nature of the subject, after the argument
which had been heard at the bar, thought
it his duty to propose that their lordships
should be allowed twenty-four hours to
consider whether what was stated in her
majesty's petition, or what had been urged
in its support, ought to induce them to
make any change in the course of their
proceeding. For his own part, he had no
difficulty, upon the fullest consideration he
was capable of giving to the subject, and
after reference made to analogous pro-
ceedings on other occasions, which, though
affording no direct precedent, might be
in some measure similar, in declaring it to
be his opinion that the course which had
been at first adopted by their lordships, in
appointing a secret committee, was that
which was most fitting, with refer-
VOL. II. (sres)


ence both to doing justice to the indivi-
dual concerned, and to guarding the pub-
lic interests. As long as there exist-
ed any hope that an investigation could be
avoided, he had been willing to consent
to delay ; but when it was proved that
the hopes which their lordships had been
encouraged to entertain were become fruit-
less, there was nothing left for them to do
but to proceed in the course which they
had originally chosen. If the noble lord
had any objections to urge to that mode of
proceeding, he should, in reply, state the
grounds on which' he thought it ought to
be adhered to by their lordships.
Earl Grey said, he felt himself placed, in
consequence of the noble lord's persist-
ing in this measure, under the painful ne-
cessity of calling their lordships' atten-
tion to the grounds on which he pro-
posed to submit to theirconsideration a mo-
tion for abandoning the course they had al-
ready adopted. Before, however, he pro-
ceeded to state the reasons which he
hoped might induce their lordships to
rescind the order they had made for the
secret committee, he thought some
apology must appear due from him for
venturing to make such a proposition. It
might seem, that, in taking on himself the
task of persuading their lordships to aban-
don that course which they had chosen
after mature deliberation, which the able
arguments of his noble friend had not
been able to prevent them from adopt-
ing, which they had repeatedly refused
to alter, and which they had persevered in
notwithstanding various adjournments, he
manifested no little presumption in sup-
B









----



Parliamentary Debates


During the First Session of the Seventh Parliament of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, ap-
pointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-first Day
of April 1820, in the First Year of the Reign of His
Majesty King GEORGE the Fourth.


hOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, June 27th, 1820.
SECRET COMMITTEE ON THE PAPERS
RELATING TO THE CONDUCT OF THE
QUEEN.] Earl Grey, wishing to spare
their lordships the pain of unnecessary dis-
cussion on a subject on which it was most
desirable that discussion should be avoided,
rose to ask the noble earl opposite, whether
any thing had occurred since yesterday to
induce him to delay the meeting of the se-
cret committee on the papers relating to
the conduct of her majesty, which had
been so often suspended, and which was
ordered to sit to-morrow.
The Earl of Liverpool said, he had cer-
tainly, in consequence of that respectful
attention which he thought due to the feel-
ings of the House, and to the important
nature of the subject, after the argument
which had been heard at the bar, thought
it his duty to propose that their lordships
should be allowed twenty-four hours to
consider whether what was stated in her
majesty's petition, or what had been urged
in its support, ought to induce them to
make any change in the course of their
proceeding. For his own part, he had no
difficulty, upon the fullest consideration he
was capable of giving to the subject, and
after reference made to analogous pro-
ceedings on other occasions, which, though
affording no direct precedent, might be
in some measure similar, in declaring it to
be his opinion that the course which had
been at first adopted by their lordships, in
appointing a secret committee, was that
which was most fitting, with refer-
VOL. II. (sres)


ence both to doing justice to the indivi-
dual concerned, and to guarding the pub-
lic interests. As long as there exist-
ed any hope that an investigation could be
avoided, he had been willing to consent
to delay ; but when it was proved that
the hopes which their lordships had been
encouraged to entertain were become fruit-
less, there was nothing left for them to do
but to proceed in the course which they
had originally chosen. If the noble lord
had any objections to urge to that mode of
proceeding, he should, in reply, state the
grounds on which' he thought it ought to
be adhered to by their lordships.
Earl Grey said, he felt himself placed, in
consequence of the noble lord's persist-
ing in this measure, under the painful ne-
cessity of calling their lordships' atten-
tion to the grounds on which he pro-
posed to submit to theirconsideration a mo-
tion for abandoning the course they had al-
ready adopted. Before, however, he pro-
ceeded to state the reasons which he
hoped might induce their lordships to
rescind the order they had made for the
secret committee, he thought some
apology must appear due from him for
venturing to make such a proposition. It
might seem, that, in taking on himself the
task of persuading their lordships to aban-
don that course which they had chosen
after mature deliberation, which the able
arguments of his noble friend had not
been able to prevent them from adopt-
ing, which they had repeatedly refused
to alter, and which they had persevered in
notwithstanding various adjournments, he
manifested no little presumption in sup-
B








3] HOUSE OF LORDS,
posing that he could induce them to
adopt another course, merely be-
cause he thought it more consistent with
the principles of justice than the one on
which they had decided. le entertained
no hope which rested on so unreasonable a
foundation. However strong might be his
opinion of the impropriety of a measure, he
certainly should not presume, immediate-
ly after it had received the deliberate
sanction of their lordships, to propose
that it should be abandoned, if it did not
appear to him that a material alteration
had taken place in the state of the circum-
stances, which made the case different
from that which was before their lordships,
when they adopted the resolution ori-
ginally submitted to their consideration.
When it was first proposed to refer the
contents of that green bag which had
been placed on their lordships' table to
the consideration of a committee, the im-
propriety, injustice, and unprecedented
nature of such a proceeding had been
ably enforced by his noble friends. With
regard to the last objection, the noble lord,
in the answer given by him to the ques-
tion he had put, admitted that no preced-
ent for the course taken was to be
found; but intimated that, on searching
for proceedings of a similar nature, the
present was the most proper mode of par-
liamentary inquiry which could be point-
ed out. He certainly was not aware of
any precedent that could justify the mode
which had been adopted, and in the ab-
sence of all precedent he thought it right
that their lordships should be guided by
their own judgment on the case. But
even if there were precedents, still it would
be for their lordships to consider whether
they were bound to be guided by them.
They might have been created in times
when principles of equity had little in-
fluence, and might be repugnant to rea-
son and justice. Whatever precedents,
therefore, might have been adduced, he
should still have thought himself en-
titled to require their lordships to consi-
der the claim now made upon them by her
majesty, and to decide according to equal
justice. Their lordships ought to recol-
lect, that the proposition made to them
was, that they should now proceed to exa-
mine infoination of a nature totally ex-
parte, in a case directly affecting the cha-
racter and honour of the queen. This ex.
amination was to take place without afford.
ing her any means of explanation on
the charges made against her-any oppor-


Secret Commitlee on the Papers [4
tunity ofexaminingwitnesses, or of saying
any thing in her own defence. Upon
such a partial examination their lordships
were to make a report with a view to some
proceeding in that House. Be that pro-
ceeding what it may, her majesty woold
inevitably be placed in a disadvantageous
situation with respect to it, from the
weight of their loidships' report, in the
first place, against her. This was a ge-
neral principle, on which he would in any
case insist ; but when lie considered the
situation in which their lordships stood,
and the important functions, judi-
cial as well as legislative, which they
might have to perform, the objection
acquired infinitely greater force. The
charges supposed to be contained in the
green bag were of such a nature, that
it proved her majesty ought no longer to
enjoy her high station. They were such
as affected her life, and, what was to her
of far more importance, her character
and honour. Such was the nature of
the case on which their lordships were
to decide; and he called upon them to
consider whether it was proper for them to
come to a judgment under the suspicion of
being prejudiced by previous proceedings,
or of being biassed in their decision by the
ministers of the Crown. It was true, it
had been said that it was impossible their
lordships could be called on to act judici-
ally in this case; but were they now to pro-
ceed on the persuasion that another view of
the subject could not be taken elsewhere ?
The other House of Parliament had equal
authority with this to investigate the case,
and might think it one which ought to be
the foundation of an impeachment. The
learned lord on the woolsack had stated,
that no prosecution for treason could be
instituted on the present charges, even
supposing them true. He was perfectly
ready to acknowledge the weight which
was due to the learned lord's authority;
but if, as a member of that House, he was
not satisfied with the reasons given by the
noble and learned lord, he could not be
expected to abandon the opinion he had
himself formed, especially as he found his
own opinion fortified by legal authority,
which he respected equally as much as he
did that of the noble and learned lord.
With regard to the construction put upon
the statute of Edward 3rd, unless it was
maintained that the words of the clause
applied only to the forcible violation of
the queen's person, he did not see how it
could be doubted tlat she was to be held
1







5] relating to the Conduct of the Queen.


an accessory, if the crime were committed must contend that it was not consistent
in England, and with an English subject. with justice to permit a preliminary inves-
He must also observe, and he could not tigation by a secret committee to take
persuade himself to concur in the subtile place. The report of that secret com-
distinction taken by the noble and learned mittee might do prejudice to the person
lord, that if the crime were committed accused, on whose case their lordships
abroad and with a foreigner, her majesty would have to decide. This question, it
would be relieved from all the penalties was true, had already been argued by his
which would otherwise attach to such an noble friends, and the House had thought
act. If, however, he admitted the doc- fit to decide against their opinion. But the
trine of the noble and learned lord, he circumstances of the case were now greatly
should still be of opinion that the means altered. It was at the outset supposed
of applying a remedy through the medium by his noble friends that the House of
of the House of Commons existed. On Commons might entertain a different opi-
the supposition that her majesty had while nion from their lordships, and that which
abroad lived an immoral and licentious was then regarded only as a possibility
life, and committed such acts as in Eng- was now a matter of fact; for it appeared
land would make her guilty of high trea- from the votes on the table, that a pro-
son, the idea that no judicial proceeding position similar to that which their lord-
could be instituted appeared to him un- ships had adopted had been made to the
founded. If she were liable to such im- other House; but that the Commons, in-
putations he must contend that the Com- stead of agreeing at once to the proposi-
mons would havethe same right to proceed tion, had not yet come to any decision
against herastheypossessed inallcasesofof. upon it. They had suspended it, not in
fences which were not defined by the law. the manner done by their lordships, but in
That House might therefore impeach her an anterior stage; for they had not ap-
majesty, on the ground that she had ren- pointed the committee at all; while in
dered herselfunworthy of the station she their lordships' House it seemed to be
occupies. With all the respect he enter- thought that the business ought to pro-
tained for the authority of the noble and ceed with all possible expedition. After
learned lord, he must in this case, be al- the proceeding was first suspended, a
lowed to dissent from it; and he must be negotiation had taken place, which had
permitted to say, that it appeared to him failed ; and now it appeared that the pro-
that the great and powerful mind of the position in the House of Commons was a
noble and learned lord had on this occa- second time suspended, on the express
sion been so limited by the mere techni- condition that some measure was to come
calities of the law, that he could not look before that House from their lordships.
at the question in its proper light. He In alluding to what had passed he might
must also protest against another opinion be allowed to state a supposed case. He
which had gone forth respecting a sup- would suppose, then, that it had been
posed ground of vindication which might stated in another place, that their lord-
be set up. This was not a case in which ships' House might possibly institute a ju-
recrimination could be admitted [Hear, dicial proceeding. Suppose this state-
hear !]. The offence, if there were any, ment had been mad'. by some person in
was of a public nature, and could not be authority-by some statesman eminent
regulated by the rules which applied to for the correctness of his language, and
cases of private injury. Such a principle the precision with which lie always ex-
as the admission of recrimination, he pressed his ideas [Hear, hear!]. The
trusted would never be sanctioned by their person who gave this opinion might be
lordships. It would have been equally only stating his view of what he expected
improper to have allowed Thistlewood to would be done by their lordships, but itwas
defend himself by saying that his treason very extraordinary to suppose that a judi-
was directed against tyrants and oppres- cial proceeding should originate with that
sors, as to permit a vindication in this House. But suppose the same eminent
case by the accusation of another person. statesman had farther observed, that if the
On these grounds he was of opinion that expectation he entertained should be dis-
their lordships might still be called upon appointed; if the course thus chalked out
to act in their judicial capacity, in conse- for their lordships should not be followed,
quence of some proceeding taken by the and nothing should be done in that House;
House of Commons; and therefore he then he, the minister of the Crown would


Ju~j 9.7, 1820. L6









be ready to stand forward as the accuser, place, but begs that she might not, by a
and put the case in a train for inquiry be- previous proceeding, have the accusations
fore the only tribunal by which it could against her sent forth into the world, not
be judged, namely, their lordships' House. as the charges of her accusers, but as
Their lordships must now perceive in what those of that House. He was not then to
state they stood with respect to the House support her majesty's cause; he knew
of Commons. It was a situation to the nothing of it, nor of her accusers ; but it
probable consequences of which they was his duty as a member of that House
could no longer shut their eyes. If the to conlen(I in every case for the equal dis-
determination of their lordships on any pensation of justice. He was anxious that
report made to them, after the examina- it should appear clearly to the public that
.tion proposed to be gone into by the com- every stage of the proceedings which might
mittee, should be one way, it would be be adopted was consistent with the strict-
prejudicial to the accused; if another est rules of justice. Every possible care
way, it would be against the accuser; but ought to be taken to obviate any odium
it was their duty to take care that they did to which the measures to be adopted
nothing either to favour the accuser or might be exposed. He had already dis-
the accused. They might, however, be claimed the intention of recommending to
placed in that situation; and nothing their lordships to yield to any sort of cla-
could, in his mind, be a stronger reason mour. No idea could be more averse
for altering the course in which they were from his mind. But when the call made
now engaged. But the medium through was not factious-when it proceeded from
which the inquiry was proposed to take the best feelings of human nature, from
place was of itself most objectionable. generosity and compassion-then it was
Secret committees had, unfortunately, of not to faction he asked them to yield, but
late, been too common in that House. So to the pure spirit of justice. [Hear!].
far was such a body from being looked Hle had already stated, that no similar
upon with a favourable eye by the public, proceeding had ever before taken place.
that the very name of a secret committee This, he believed, was not disputed, and
stamped a character of suspicion on the their lordships must therefore feel it to be
whole proceeding, and created in the mind of more importance to pay attention to
of the public an apprehension that preju- the character which such a proceeding
dice might influence the decision on the must have in the eyes of the public. Their
case. He never would advise their lord- lordships occupied a high station in the
ships to yield to any factious clamour, but country, distinguished by a long line of
he would say that it ought to be their first ancestors, possessing wealth, rank, and
and most anxious care, not only to do every thing that could entitle them to re-
strict justice, but to see that no step spect, and secure their perfect independ-
should be taken which might be calcu- ence. Possessing these high advantages,
lated to excite distrust with respect to they were bound to take the greatest care
their proceedings. He had stated the how they brought the character of their
grounds on which he objected to the proceedings into question. But, however
course their lordships had pursued, and it respectable their lordships were, they did
certainly was not with the vieki of induce. not stand high in the opinion of the public
ing them to yield to any popular clamour with respect to any disposition to resist
that he begged of them to consider the the propositions of the minister of the
state of general suspicion into which the Crown. In what situation, then, would
proceedingsof the Housemightbe brought. they stand with respect to public opinion,
He had endeavoured to show that the should their conduct on the present occa-
course recommended by the noble earl sion be contrasted to their disadvantage
opposite was inconsistent with the princi- with that of another assembly-if, after
pies of justice, with the duties of that a discussion in the House of Commons on
House, and with the respect due to the the same proposition which was before
claims of the person who was brought in their lordships, his majesty's ministers
a state of accusation before them. That thought fit to yield to the sense of that
illustrious person came before them in a House, and abandon their intention, while
character in which he believed no queen they persisted in it in their lordships'
of England had ever before appeared. She House ? In what light would they stand
is a petitioner; she prays for a prompt in- before the public, were this case, which
quiry, desirous that no delay may take he had supposed, to take place ? These


Secret Coninnacele on the BPa~el's


71 HOUSE OF: LORDS,







9] relating to the Conduct of the Queen. JuNE 27, 1820. [10
reasons he thought were sufficient to in- the report of that committee would be re-
duce the House to abandon a course, guarded as any thing else than the report
which, if persisted in, could not fail to of the ministers of the Crown. He would
prove generally odious. Ministers must then ask, what it was that the ministers
indeed have great influence if they sup- did with the committee which they were
posed that they could prevail on their Inot able to do without it ? Was there any
lordships to take upon themselves a duty secret charm in the committee-room of
which belonged to the other House, and that House, which was to inspire them
to become accusers after that House had with that energy, wisdom and justice,
declined the task. Were their lordships, which they could not find in their cabi-
then, prepared to take upon themselves all net ? It was in vain to suppose that any
this odium-to relinquish the respect to effect would be produced on the public
which, by acting otherwise, they would mind, by a committee appointed by mi-
be entitled ? But for what were they wil- nisters, that might not have been produc-
ling to encounter the odium to which ed without one. He implored their lord-
their proceedings exposed them ? If they ships, then, to abandon the committee.
could show him that any advantage could But he did not therefore call upon them
be derived from the course they pursued, to abandon inquiry; for he was afraid
he would almost give up all his objections that the advisers of the Crown had by
to it on the score of public justice. In the their conduct brought matters into such
mean time he must ask, how this com- a situation, that they could neither pro-
mittee was to proceed ? Were he a mem- ceed without danger, nor retrograde with-
ber of it, as soon as that green bag was out disgrace. It was therefore to be fear-
opened, and a paper taken out purporting ed that the only way of escaping from
to be evidence against her majesty, he their present straits-the only solution
would not hear it read. He would protest of the difficulty in which they were in-
that he must have the opportunity of volved-was a fair, open, and impartial
seeing and examining the witness himself. inquiry, that would answer the ends of
He would insist upon being permitted to justice and satisfy the public mind. But,
sift the person who brought forward such in order to produce that satisfaction, it
charges. I' the committee were conducted was not only necessary that the investiga-
on these principles, which were the prin- tion should be fair and impartial, but
ciples of justice, it must be evident to above all suspicion. An inquiry might
their lordships that no timecould regained now be necessary; but he asked, whether
by the mode proposed to them. But after it might not be as well or better to carry
having gone through all this labour, and it on by a more simple mode of proceed-
completed their report, they would still ing than by a secret committee? There
have a second trial to commence; for the were three ways in which the investiga-
illustrious person accused must some how tion might come before their lordships-
or other have an opportunity of defending either by an entirely judicial proceeding,
herself. Nothing, therefore, could be which would originate in the other House,
gained in point of time by examination of or by a bill of pains and penalties, which
the committee. But of whom was the would also originate in the other House;
committee composed ? It was stated yes- or by a measure, partly legislative and
terday by a noble friend of his, that it in- partly judicial, which might in the first
eluded four cabinet ministers : he should instance be brought before their lord-
add, that with only two or three excep- ships. In any of these three modes, the
tions it consisted of members of that investigation might be properly prose-
House, of whom he said nothing uncivil cuted, the ends of justice obtained, and
when he stated that they were persons the character of their lordships' House
who on all political questions concurred preserved, without any proceeding by a
in opinion with the ministers of the Crown. secret committee. It was by no means to
When he besides stated, that at the head prevent inquiry that lie had made this
of this committee were the lord chancellor, suggestion, or urged this course. It was
the president of the council, the first lord only that he might induce their lordships
of the Treasury, the secretary of state for to adopt a measure consonant to the prili-
the home department, the duke of Wel- ciples ofjustice, satisfactory to the public
lington, &c., what sentiments could it be mind, and not injurious to the character
expected to speak ? Let not their lord- of parliament.-He could not but remark,
ships deceive themselves by the belief that that the conduct of ministers during the








whole of these proceedings had been most impeaching her character. None of these
extraordinary, weak, and unjustifiable; three courses, however, had ministers pur-
and that, by their imbecility and vacilla- sued. They made offers of treating with
tion, they had brought the question to an her majesty, but they at the same time
issue, which, as he had said before, they denounced a threat that all negotiation
could not pursue without danger, or re- must terminate, and all adjustment be at
tract without disgrace. He would not an end, unless she complied with certain
enter into all the circumstances of their conditions; thus coupling a menace of
singular conduct, but he would say that proving criminal charges, with the offer
they had brought not only the honour of of an arrangement wholly inconsistent
the Crown, but the interests of the coun- with them. But how was it proposed now
try into peril, and that without necessity to proceed ? When they found that her
or excuse. It was now more than twelve majesty would not attend to their offers,
months since the extraordinary commis- they now spoke of provingserious charges
sion was appointed to inquire into her against her; but they did it with hesita-
majesty's conduct abroad-he could not tion and delay, and a desire to divest
say by whom appointed, or how it had themselves of all responsibility-a respon-
conducted itself-but it had been nomi- sibility from which they would never .be
nated to obtain the information on which relieved by him. This was not the only
ministers now acted. Nay, it was even instance in which this loose, disjointed,
twelve months since its report was re- ana feeble administration had divested
ceived. Was it not the duty of his ma- themselves of the official accountability
jesty's ministers, then, to take all the cir- that attached to their stations, and left
cumstances into consideration, and to act the business of the nation to be performed
upon them, as it became them, for the by the legislature, had abdicated the pow-
honour of their royal master, and for the ers of government and devolved upon
peace and welfare of the country ? If, in committees of parliament their duties and
their opinion, that report contained no- their responsibility. At a season of great
thing which obliged them tobring any ac- public distress and danger, at a moment of
cusation against her majesty, it was their great peril to the peace and tranquillity of
duty to have communicated that opinion the country, they had shown themselves
to their sovereign, and to have set at rest unfit for.the emergency, and called upon
reports which affected the character of their lordships for direction. When the
the queen. If, on the other hand, they tempest arose-when the winds raged-
were convinced that matters of serious when the waves beat high, the vessel of
charge existed, and that that charge the state was left by them, without com-
would be supported by the evidence pass or rudder, to the mercy of the storm.
which had been collected, it was their duty The fury of the tempest increases-the
as soon as possible to bring forward the i crew becomes mutinous, and the pilot
accusation, to bring it to the result which trembles;
they foresaw it would have, and thus pre- Ipse pavet; nec se qui sit status, ipse fatetur
vent all those dangers which might arise Scire ralis rector; nec quid jubeatve, vetetve:
from suspending such serious charges Tanta mali moles, tantoque potentiorarte est.
over the character and conduct of her One of the members of that administra-
majesty. If they had preferred their ac- tion (Mr. Canning) and of course one of
cusation, collected their witnesses, served the advisers of the accusation against her
a notice on the queen, and brought the majesty, had since declared, in his place
matter before parliament, the whole affair in parliament, that he did not concur with
might have been by this time terminated, his colleagues in their present measures,
and all those evils which now threatened and had added with great emphasis, So
the peace of tie country prevented or dis- help me God, I will never become her ac-
sipated. If neither side of this alternative cuser." But what did the right hon. gen-
was expedient to be followed, and if the tleman say more ? He spoke from his
information collected regarding her ma- personal knowledge of the queen, and he
jesty's conduct allowed the ministers of called her the grace, the life, and the
the Crown to think that the arrangement ornament of society." If she deserved
of her affairs admitted of negotiation and this encomium-ifshe was the "grace, the
compromise they ought immediately to life, and the ornament of society," why
have entered upon that negotiation, and was she not a fit partner for the throne of
to have made that arrangement without England ? and why, when his colleagues


11] HOUSE OF LORDS,


Secrect Committee on thfe Papers







13] relating to the Conduct of the Qu
spoke of charges, did he shrink from giv-
ing advice to that effect? For he not
only called her the grace, life, and or-
nament of society," but added, that she
was entitled to his highest respect and ad-
miration. This, strange as it seemed, was
not enough to show the conduct and state
of the administration.-After strong in-
stances of trepidation, uncertainty, and
dismay, they agreed to a resolution which
lay on the table of the House, on which,
as it was a curious document, he would
now make a few observations. Those
very ministers who threatened the queen,
who brought charges, as they expressed
it, of a serious nature against her, and
who, believing those charges, thought that
she ought to be deprived of her rank and
dignity, agreed in a resolution to address
her majesty, humbly beseeching her ma-
jesty "' not to press farther those proposi-
tions on which any material difference of
opinion remains." Those ministers who
threatened that, if she set her foot on the
shore of England, proceedings would be
immediately instituted against her, and
that all compromise and negotiation would
be at an end, resolved, now that she had
despised their menaces, and arrived con-
trary to their inclination, to send a depu-
tation of the House of Commons, pra3 ing
her,-" bending low, and in a bondman's
key,"-to be so good as to desist from
farther demands, such large advances
having been already made to an adjust-
ment of differences." They agreed to
her title of queen; they conceded her
most important rights, and they only sup-
plicated her to surrender what they could
not concede without a glaring retracta-
tion. Nay, one of these ministers had
praised her for her boldness in coming to
this country, which they had previously
denounced as an offence, and the reason
of their opening their charges against her.
In the resolution, they said, You shall
be acknowledged as queen : foreign
courts shall be told that you retain all
your rights; you may have any thing but
a place in the Liturgy, and a recognition
of your innocence." Could any thing be
more base and contemptible than such
conduct ?-He now came to a passage in
the resolution, on which he would stand
as on a rock, and resist the inquiry, and
the mode in which it was proposed to be
conducted. Her majesty was accused-
the charges were in the bag-a committee
had been proposed; and yet they paused,
and agreed not to open the bag, but to


een. JUNE 27, 1820. [Pr
address her majesty with all respect and
submission, to surrender some of her
rights, that inquiry might be prevented.
In defence of their conduct one of the
ministers in the other House stated,
in that curious phraseology which he
sometimes used, that with such serious
charges existing, if they had not called
for inquiry, ministers would have been
a contrast to themselves." If they did
alter their manner of governing this coun-
try, and thus formed a contrast with their
former administration, he, for one, should
rejoice at it. The resolution said, that
the House of Commons should address her
majesty to give up the points of differ-
ence, thereby entitling herself to the
grateful acknowledgments of the House,
and sparing the House the painful neces-
sity of those public discussions, which,
whatever might be their ultimate result,
couldn't but be derogatoryfrom thedignity
of the Crown, and injurious to the best in-
terests of the empire." Here, then, was a
declaration that the ministers had proposed
to institute an inquiry which could have
no possible result but one derogatory from
the dignity of the Crown, and injurious to
the best interests of the empire. What
necessity was there for this inquiry but an
alternative replete with greater evil; and
what result could be more calamitous than
one so characterized ? This was stated
to be the result of the inquiry by a com-
mittee, whatever the termination of the
inquiry might be. But this had been
said to be a mere quibble, and a distor-
tion of the words of the resolution. But
did the words mean any thing? And if
they did mean any thing, what other con-
struction could they bear, than that great
evil would result from a secret inquiry ?
The injury could not arise simply from
the exposure of the conduct of the queen;
for, if she had been living in a course of
lice abroad, it could be no injury that her
behaviour should be investigated, and that
she should be separated from the throne;
and if, on the other hand, she was inno-
cent, it could not be derogatory from the
honour of the Crown, or injurious to the
interests of the empire, that her inno-
cence should be established [Hear !].
But when proceeding by a secret com-
mittee was declared so calamitous, would
their lordships persevere ? He could not
think that it was consistent with justice to
prosecute inquiry in this mode; and he
was sure it would be injurious to the high
character of parliament. The inquiry, if







*5] HOUSE OF LORDS,
necessary, should be prosecuted without
delay, with justice and impartiality, with
due regard to the character of parliament,
and the honour of her majesty.-These
were the grounds on which he made his
motion to discharge the order for the
meeting of the secret committee. He
knew nothing of the accusation against
her majesty-nothing of the witnesses by
which it was supported-nothing of the
evidence by which it could be repelled.
But on this principle he stood, that there
should be no secret investigation-that
there should be no inquiry that was ac-
knowledged to be derogatory from the
dignity of the Crown, and injurious to the
best interests of the empire. He knew
nothing of the charge or defence, but he
saw no means of obtaining a proper ad-
judication but by a public proceeding.
He therefore implored their lordships to
desist from a secret investigation, as con-
trary to law, and exposed to odium and
suspicion. The noble earl concluded by
moving, that the order for the meeting of
the secret committee to consider the pa-
pers referred to their lordships be dis-
charged.
The Earl of Liverpool said, he had
heard the speech of the noble earl with
great surprise. The beginning of it con-
tained a legal argument against the mode
of proceeding adopted by their lordships,
in which he said that the present was no
party question, but that it ought to be de-
cided by the principles of justice. How
much, therefore, was he surprised to hear
the noble earl, in the conclusion of his
observations, so completely belying his
professions, and making one of the most
inflammatory party attacks that was ever
made within the walls of parliament
[Hear, hear !] This attack was general,
and he (lord Liverpool) was prepared
to repel it. He was prepared to ap-
peal from the judgment of the noble
earl, to the country, to parliament, and
to posterity, and to be tried by them
for the conduct pursued by himself and
his colleagues for the last eight years.
He was willing that their counsels and
acts should be compared with the counsels
and acts of the administration with which
the noble earl had been connected. He
would ask their lordships what now would
have been the situation and prospects of
the country, if the counsels of the noble
earl and of his friends had been followed ?
He again declared that he was willing to
be tried for the general conduct of admi-


Secret Committee on the Papers [16
nistration by the country, by parliament,
and by posterity. In the present case he
had no difficulty in explaining or defend-
ing the whole of his conduct, and that of
his colleagues, without reference to any
parliamentary resolution. He was pre-
pared to state, that proceedings against
the queen would be an evil, that they
could not be undertaken without great
inconvenience, and ought not to be pro-
secuted unless to encounter a greater in-
convenience. The principle acted upon
to prevent her majesty's coming to this
country was in his opinion wise and expe-
dient, and was, he was convicted, ap-
proved of by nine-tenths of the country.
Was there any alternative, then, when
she arrived, between allowing her all the
honours and privileges of her rank, or
placing her in a state of accusation?
Unless a message had been brought down
to the House, containing charges against
her, how could their lordships or the other
House of Parliament consistently omit to
present her with addresses of congratula-
tion on her arrival ? But after they had
taken their ground the noble earl accused
them of vacillation in their subsequent
course. He knew of no vacillation; he
had moved that the papers on their lord-
ships' table should be referred to a secret
committee, and that motion was adopted.
It was true that a strong sense had been
expressed in another House that a fresh
attempt at negotiation should be made;
and that, concurring with the wishes and
opinions of his majesty's ministers, had
been agreed to by them. Words had
been quoted in an irregular manner, as
having been uttered in another place; but
without meaning to say that there was
any intentional misrepresentation, he
could say, from inquiry, that they had not
been accurately published. The resolution
adopted in the other House had been
called the resolution of ministers ; if this
meant that it had received their support,
the assertion was true ; but if it meant to
insinuate that they had any knowledge of
it, even an hour before it was moved, the
statement was altogether unfounded. He
was prepared to deny the doctrine of the
noble earl with respect to the resolution
and to maintain that though the trial of the
queen might be a great public evil, still a
greater evil might be encountered by not
proceeding under certain circumstances.
He trusted the House would believe that
ministers wished to avoid investigation in
the first instance, but if it was instituted







17] relating to the Conduct of'the Queen. JUNE 27, 1820. [18
they did not wish to avoid responsibility. struction of this statute and contended,
The first consideration was, whether the that as there was no substantive crime in
course of proceeding which had been pro- the act of the woman, her guilt must be
posed was wrong, as had been stated by inferred on the ground that she was an
the noble lord, with reference to the House accessary to the crime. If, then, the ac-
of Commons: and the second, whether a cessary were criminal; it followed that
preliminary inquiry by a secret committee the principal must also be criminal ; and,
was wrong, with reference to their lord- indeed, any other supposition would be
ships themselves. The noble earl called absurd. But, in the present case, if the
on their lordships to preserve the high principal in the adulterous act was a fo-
character which they had in all times past reigner, there was no treason on his part
maintained in the exercise of their judicial at all; and how could it be said that in
functions. He too hoped their lordships such a case the accessary was guilty,
would not overlook this consideration; since, in the eye of the law, the guilt of
for it was matter of satisfaction to reflect, the accessary was the same as that of the
that if there existed in the world a tribu- principal, and here no principal was
nal whose character for strict justice and guilty ? He confessed that for some
rigid impartiality was unimpeached, that time he had great doubts on this subject,
tribunal was the House of Lords of this but after consulting all the legal authori-
kingdom. But the noble earl said, that ties to whom he had access, his doubts
even supposing the course adopted to had been completely removed. But the
have been right in the first instance, cir- noble earl had said, that though there was
cumstances had intervened that now made no treason in the present case there might
it wrong. He, on the contrary,maintained, be other great state offences on which
that those intervening circumstances, so their lordships might be required to decide
far from furnishing any reason for deviat- judicially. He agreed so far with the
ing from the original course, afforded noble earl; but if there existed any crimes
their lordships additional inducements to of that description, they must be such as
persevere in that course of proceeding, were known to the common law of the
It had been said that this subject had country, and therefore adultery could not
been taken up by the other House of be included in that class [A peer on
Parliament; and, for aught their lordships the Opposition benches dissented from
knew, might be made the ground of an this opinion]. He said that adultery
impeachment; and that therefore their was a civil injury, but no crime, and that
lordships ought not to institute an ex opinion had been distinctly expressed by a
parte inquiry into a matter on which they noble lord (the late lord Auckland), who
might be called on to decide in their judi- had brought in a bill to make adultery
cial capacity. Now, undoubtedly, he a crime. That which was not a crime by
conceived that the main cause of laying the common law could not be tried before
this charge before their lordships was the any of the ordinary tribunals of the coun-
consideration that an adulterous con- try, and indeed, if that were not the case,
nexion could not be made the ground of there would be no protection for the sub-
an impeachment, or of any other legal ject. While he had any thing to say in
proceeding; and that ground lie was pre- that House, he would never endure the
pared to argue with the noble lord, who doctrine that they had a right to create
appeared to question the law of his noble for the occasion, a crime which did not
and learned friend on the woolsack res- belong to tile law of the land. This mat-
pecting the proper construction of the ter being so stated, he now came to the
statute. He would say of his noble and consideration of what was the only remedy

learned friend, that no one's opinion on in the present case-of what was the
legal questions had so much weight with only course of proceeding for their lord-
him; but he could also say that every other ships to adopt. The only proceeding in
legal authority that had been referred to his opinion, which was applicable to the
-and many other eminent authorities present case, was a legislative one: it
had been consulted-supported the same might be a bill of Divorce, or a bill of
construction. By the statute of Edward Pains and Penalties, but it was necessary
3rd, the violation of the king's wife, or that there should be a legislative proceed-
his eldestson's wife, or his eldest daughter ing. He was likewise authorized by the
was declared to be high treason. The precedents recorded on their Journals to
noble earl proceeded to argue on the con- say, that the proceeding might originate
VOL. II. C








19] HOUSE OF LORDS,


in that House as well as in the other.
And this brought him to the consideration
in which House of Parliament it would
with most propriety originate. He
thought that the circumstance of their
lordships being in the habit of examining
witnesses on oath, independently of vari-
ous other important considerations, was a
decisive reason why it should originate in
their lordships House. He therefore
would repeat, that in the present case
they could adopt no other than a legisla-
tive course of proceeding, and that it
ought to arise in that House rather than
in the other. This opinion seemed also
to be entertained by the House of Com-
mons, which had suspended its proceed-
ings in the expectation that their lordships
would commence some measure on the
subject; and what his noble friend (lord
Castlereagh) had stated on that occasion
was, that if some legislative measure were
not introduced in the House of Lords, lhe
would propose one in the House of Com-
mons. To him it appeared that a legisla-
tive proceeding was the only course that
could lead them out of the present diffi-
culties and that this proceeding should
originate in the House of Lords, it being
competent for either House to commence
it, but preferable that it should arise from
their lordships. He came now to the
question more immediately before the
House;--namely, whether, supposing a
legislative measure to be proper, it ought
to be preceded by any inquiry, and whe-
ther that inquiry, if admitted to be neces-
sary, ought to be made by a secret com-
mittee? He had looked into most of the
bills of pains and penalties that had been
brought before the House, and he could
find no case in which such a bill had been
introduced without some previous inquiry.
In the view in which the noble lord ob-
jected to a secret committee, he would
ask, where was the distinction between an
inquiry before a secret committee, and an
inquiry before the whole House? The
noble lord opposed a secret committee,
on the ground that it was calculated to
excite a great prejudice in the public
mind; but if a preliminary inquiry of
some kind were necessary, and if, as the
noble lord contended, the tendency of
such a proceeding was to excite preju-
dice, it would follow, that the more public
the inquiry, the more prejudice would be
caused. But he had no difficulty in saying
that, even if the course now proposed had
not been sanctioned by the general usage


in introducing such bills, he should still
have thought it highly fitting in the pre-
sent case. This was an accusation against
the first subject in the realm, and the case
could not be entered into without great
difficulty and great delicacy. Was it fit-
ting, he would ask their lordships, that
the House, on the mere ipse dixit of
a minister, and without inquiring for them-
selves, should decide that there were
grounds of proceeding against the illustri-
ous individual who was accused ? The
noble lord had assumed-and the assump-
tion certainly was not parliamentary-that
this committee must report that there were
grounds for farther proceeding. There
was no such necessity; it might report
that there were not, as well as that there
were, grounds. But even if the evidence
should not appear altogether decisive, or
if other difficulties should arise which
might render a different course of proceed-
ing advisable, would the noble lord say in
that event, when such great interests were
at stake, that no authority should be
interposed between ministers and the par-
ties concerned ? He had looked at all
the bills of Pains and Penalties
that had been brought into parliament,
and in nine cases out of every ten a pro-
ceeding by impeachment might as well
have been recommended; and yet the no-
ble earl called on them to stop this pro-
ceeding, because the House of Com-
mons might impeach. He had listened
attentively to all the arguments which
had been so eloquently urged at their bar
by her majesty's counsel; but, ably as
the learned counsel had argued, he had
not heard from them one word that bore
on the present question. The learned
gentlemen had said, it was unfair that
the charge should proceed till the queen
was prepared for her defence. In that
opinion he agreed with them; and he
thought that she and her counsel
should have their choice as to the time
at which the requisite delay should be
granted-whether it should be before
the trial commenced, or after the charge
and the evidence in support of it had
been brought forward. But the inquiry
before the secret committee did not imply
any charge. Their lordships, by refer-
ring the papers to a committee, were not
by that proceeding making any charge
against her majesty, but were merely
ascertaining whether any charge should
hereafter be made. When that commit-
tee had reported, and when the bill found-


Secret Committee on the Papers







relating to the Conduct of the Queen.


ed on the report had been brought in (sup-
posing the report to be in the affirma-
tive), then would be the time to consider
what delay was necessary, and at what
stage of the proceeding it would be most
desirable. But the question now was,
whether there should be preliminary in-
quiry-whether the proper course of pro-
ceeding was by abill of Pains and Penalties,
and whether, the measure should origin-
ate in that or in the other House of Par-
liament. He had shown that there had
been a preliminary inquiry in every other
similar case, and that such a one as was
now proposed was most consonant to form-
er practice. The noble lord had spoken
of the clamour and discontent which
this inquiry was likely to excite; but he
would not suffer himself ts be swayed by
arguments grounded on the clamour of
the factious and discontented out of doors
[Hear, hear !]. He did not, however, be-
lieve, that the proceedings of a secret com-
mittee were looked to with that jealousy
and prejudice which the noble lord repre-
sented.-His lordship next adverted to
the observations which had been made on
the selection of the members of the com-
mittee, and observed that it was compos-
ed of peers as honourable and as well qua-
lified in every respect as could possi-
bly have been chosen. With regard to
what had been said on a former occasion
by a noble lord (Dacre) respecting the re-
sponsibility of a right reverend prelate,
the archbishop of Canterbury, for the era-
sure of her majesty's name from the Litur-
gy, it was due from him to state that the
remarks on that subject were not just.
That right reverend prelate was in no re-
spect answerable for the omission, and what-
ever might be thought or said of that omis-
sion he took the responsibility of it on the
executive government. What he was an-
xious to impress on their lordships, with re-
gard to this inquiry, was, that they should
not be deterred from the discharge of their
duty by clamour and faction either out of
doors or within doors. It they were fully
persuaded that the course now recommend-
ed was the one most analogousto the form-
er usage of parliament, let that considera-
tion'guide their lordships' conduct. But if
they thought that the course proposed
bore hard on the illustrious individual who
was the subject of the proceeding, then
he would call on them to vote for the mo-
tion of the noble lord. They had delay-
ed the inquiry in the hope that all invest
tigation might be rendered unnecessary ;


that hope had failed, and they were now
called upon to adopt the course usually
pursued in similar cases. Their lordships
were now called on to look at those sealed
papers which had been sent down by the
king, not for the purpose of trying the
illustrious person whose conduct they con-
efrpmi, but in order to to see whether any
investigation of Jier conduct was neces-
sary.
Loi d Erskine said, lie wished to give his
opinion on the question at that early pe-
riod of the debate, because he was the
only person on that side of the House
who had originally voted for a secret
committee. His opinion with respect to
the propriety of that vote was not since
changed, but he differed from the proceed-
ings of the noble lords opposite in many re-
spects, so far as to render it impossible
for him to continue longer on the commit-
tee. When the committee was first ap-
pointed he certainly felt great reluct-
ance to be nominated as one of its
members. Certainly he did not think,
that according to the statute of Edward
3rd, there could be any impeachment.
The House of Commons might, it was
true, impeach; but their lordships were
the judges, and would not consent to
any proceeding which the law of England
would not justify. He looked, however,
to probable contingencies; and he thought
then as he thought now, that it was not
probable the House of Commons would
prefer any impeachment for misdemeanor.
But what was the state of things at
present ?-It was impossible when the
committee was nominated to foresee the
turn which affairs had taken. For the
House of Commons, generally, and for
many members of it individually, he en-
tertained great respect. But lie confes-
sed his surprise at the proceeding they
had adopted. He had already stated his
opinion on the omission of her majesty's
name in the Liturgy. When he looked at
the act of Uniformity, he doubted if any
power existed in the Crown to direct
that omission. The words in the act
were very strong. They stated, That
the names should be altered and changed,
and suited to the occasion. It was evi-
dently intended, however, only that
the names should be changed, but not thac
the individuals should be omitted. In
the address which had been voted to her
majesty by the House of Commons,
it was said,-" That this House, fully sen-
sible of the objections which the queen


JUNE 27, 1820. [Q2








might justly feel to taking upon herself unless the queen consented to such a step.
the relinquishment of any points in which The Lord Chancellor was anxious to
she might have conceived her own dig- state to their lordships the reasons by
nity and honour to be involved; yet feel- which he was actuated in the course that
ing the inestimable importance of an ami- he took on the present occasion. His
cable and final adjustment of the present noble and learned friend who had just sat
unhappy differences, cannot forbear de- down, had surely forgotten that the ques-
claring its opinion, that when sucliTarge tion of the omission of the queen's name
advances have been made towards that ob- in the Liturgy was just in the same state
ject, her majesty, by yielding to the earn- as that in which it was when his noble
est solicitude of the House of Commons, and learned friend so powerfully argued
and forbearing to press further the adop. in favour of the appointment of the com-
tion of those propositions on which any mittee. Adverting to what had been said
material difference of opinion is yet by the noble mover of his construction of
remaining, would by no means be un- the statute of Edward 3rd, he complained
derstood to indicate any wish to that the noble earl had, although he was
shrink from inquiry, but would only be sure quite unintentionally, misrepresented
deemed to afford a renewed proof of the his former statement on that subject. He
desire which her majesty has been graci- then proceeded to show how far the sta-
ously pleased to express, to submit her tute of Edward 3rd, relative to high trea-
own wishes to the authority of parlia- son, referred to the case of a queen-con-
mont; thereby entitling herself to the sort accused of adultery, and said, that it
grateful acknowledgments of the House was only by a forced construction of that
of Commons, and sparing this House the act that she could be viewed as guilty of
painful necessity of those public discus- high treason. He declared this to be his
sions, which, whatever might be their ulti- opinion, after a careful examination of the
mate result, could not jut be distressing text of lord Coke, who could not make
to her majesty's feelings, disappointing to out the doctrine which he had laid down,
the hopes of parliament, derogatory from except by twisting the words of an act of
the dignity of the Crown, and injurious to parliament into a sense which they did
the best interests of the empire. "-It was not naturally bear. Such a plan of pro-
absolutely impossible that the queen could ceeding was unjust, and ought on no ac-
accede to this request. Her counsel had count to be allowed. Lord Coke's way
last night declared at the bar, that the of making adultery in a queen-consort
queen demanded the right which any high treason was by considering the party
other subject possessed, of a public trial, with whom it was committed guilty of high
When his name was added to the commit- treason, by looking upon her as an accom-
tee, he had no idea that lie should be police with him, and by then stating that in
asked to do what was considered dero- treason all the partieswereprincipals. This
gatory from the dignity of the Crown, and way of construingadulteryinto treason, de-
injurious to the best interests of the em- fective as it was, could only apply when
pire. All that he expected to be the adulterous intercourse was carried on
called upon to do was, to examine the with a subject of the realm; but how
nature of the evidence contained in his could it be so construed when the adul-
majesty's communication. He consider- tery was committed with a foreigner
ed it as a kind of indulgence to the illustri- abroad, who, owing no allegiance to this
ous individual inquestion, since, ifa secret country, could not be guilty of high trea-
committee were to determine that there son, or indeed of any other offence against
was nothing against her, no calumniating its laws or institutions? His noble friend
tongue could have injured her character ; had said, that supposing evidence existed
and if on the contrary, the committee to convict the queen of high treason, he
were to determine that the evidence should not have thought it requisite to
was sufficient to justify a proceed- have referred the case in the first instance
ing, thatproceeding must take place open- even to the House of Commons, but would
ly before the House and the country. have considered it the duty of his ma-
Now that her majesty insisted on a jesty's confidential advisers to have insti-
public trial at once, the case was differ- tuted proceedings at once before the pro-
ent, and he should unquestionably vote per tribunal, and to have put her on her
for his noble friend's motion. It was trial according to the regular course of
impossible for parliament now to recede, law. But this mode of proceeding, even


231 HOUSE OF LORDS,


Secret Committee on the Papers









supposing that circumstances .had oc- the responsibility which ought to attach
curred which had rendered it necessary, to them. This he positively denied. He
and he by no means intended to assert was himself one of the ministers who had
that such circumstances had occurred- brought down the bag in question, and
for at present he was only speaking hy- he shrunk from no responsibility that
pothetically this mode of proceeding, might attach to him for so doing: nay
he asserted, would have been attended by more, he would acknowledge that minis-
so many difficulties, of which, indepen- ters in bringing down that bag were fully
dently of the technical objection which as responsible as if they had brought in a
he had just urged, not the least would be bill of Pains and Penalties. But the pre-
the procuring of three witnesses to the sent was not a mere question of how far
particular act of treason, that he should the ministers were responsible for the
have given it as his sincere and deliberate measures which had lately been pursued
advice to his majesty's ministers not to -they might have acted rightly, or they
agitate the question in that manner.- might have acted wrongly-they might
Having stated thus much upon this mode deserve applause or they might merit
of viewing the subject, he would in the public execration-the king and queen
next place state in the most impressive were personally interested in it, and therc-
tone which he could command-and he fore the public were in a situation in
wished that his voice was loud enough to which the responsibility of ministers was
to convey the opinion from one corner of but a point of minor importance, and
the empire to the other-that those per- consequently they might better endure
sons brought a most abominable and un- the taunts which were made against them
just charge against his majesty's ministers, on account of ignorance, stupidity, preci.
who said that they were desirous of dis- pitancy, and vacillation, in dealing with
posing of this important question in the the contents of the bag which they had
most offensive way that the public ima- introduced. Individually he might have
gination could conceive, when it heard a knowledge of what those contents were ;
the words secret committee." For his but as a peer of parliament he could not
own part, he must confess, that he should at present disclose them. A secret com-
go into that committee with no other mittee had been appointed to decide whe-
view than that of executing justice fairly thcr they ought to be disclosed or not ; but
and impartially between the two illustrious it was now represented, that it was unfit that
parties who were implicated in this trans- it should assemble, because those who were
action. He owed many obligations to upon it might hereafter be called upon to
the Crown for the favours which it had, act as judges. UnJless he had mistaken
for no merits of his own, so lavishly bes- the whole course of parliamentary history
towed upon him ; but let his obligations -and he could assure their lordships that
to the Crown be ever so great, there would at various periods of his life lie had paid
be no punishment to which the noble lord considerable attention to it-whenever a
opposite could bring him which would be secret committee had been proposed to
too severe for him, if he, during the pro- interfere between the propositions made
section of the inquiry into which they to their lordships and the acts of their
were about to enter, holding the high ju- lordships consequent on those proposi-
dicial situation which he held, willingly tions-as was usual upon bills of impeach-
lost sight for a moment of the great prin- ment, bills of pains and penalties, and
ciples of English justice. He would go bills of attainder-it had never been pre-
further than this, and would say, that even viously urged; and therefore he thought
if his colleagues with one consent, were it rather too much that he should be now
to agree to bring in a bill of Pains and told, that their lordships were not to in-
Penalties against her majesty, without en- terfere, either by public or private com-
tering into an investigation of the charges mittees, as they might afterwards be called
exhibited against her, he, for one, would upon to act in a judicial capacity. If
not consent to being made a party to such they gave way to such an argument, their
bill, relating, as it would relate, to the lordships would be giving up certain of
most illustrious female in the kingdom. their functions of which they had been in
But then it was said, that ministers in undoubted possession for many centuries.
bringing down the bag to the House, and It was no objection to the appointment of
in leaving it, as they had done, on the a secret committee, that it might do no-
table, had shown a desire to shrink from thing, or that it might recommend nothing


JUNE 27, 1820. [26


relating to the Conduct of the Queen.







27] HOUSE OF LORDS,


to be done, or that it might order the at-
torney-general to impeach, or that it might
advise a bill of attainder, or that it might
suggest a bill of Pains and Penalties: all
these things it certainly could do, though
the papers which came out every morning,
and which misled the public as regularly
as they came out, had asserted that no
bill of attainder could originate in their
lordships House. In answer to the ge-
neral aspersions which the noble earl had
thought proper to cast on secret commit-
tees, he would tell the noble earl, that
high as was his rank, and great and de-
served as was the general estimation in
which he was held, he would not on that
night have been in that House freely ex-
pressing his sentiments in debate, had it
not been for the labours of some of the
secret committees that he had attacked.
For his own part, he thought that the
appointment of a secret committee would
be a shield of protection for her majesty
[Here some noble lord said, But she
won't use it"]. He had been informed
that she would not use it; but his duty
to the public urged him to inform her
majesty, that her interests must be better
defended than they could be by the mere
responsibility of ministers. But it was
also said, as he had before observed, that
the noble lords who formed the secret
committee might afterwards become part
of her majesty's judges. This, however,
would also be the case if a public com-
mittee were appointed, and therefore was
an objection not so much against the
committee being a secret one, as against
the appointment of a committee altoge-
ther. But their lordships must be aware
that they had never yet gone into the in-
vestigation ofa charge without considering
whether there were sufficient grounds for
doing so; and he had never heard that
the members of secret committees, sacred
as were the functions, and important
as were the duties which they had to
perform, had performed the duties which
it fell to their lot to discharge in fu-
ture stages of the transactions submit-
ted to their consideration, with less
fidelity than those of their lordships
who had sat on public committees,
or who had not been in committees at all.
He would endeavour to prove by another
argument, that there was no just ground
for saying that they were acting impro-
perly in appointing a secret committee to
decide on these papers, because the mem-
bers of that committee might afterwards


have to decide upon them judicially. The
House of Commons, in commencing an
impeachment, had three modes of pro-
ceeding-by a secret committee, by a se-
lect committee, or a committee of the
whole House: but had it ever been said
that those who had been upon any of these
committees should not vote on the ques-
tion of acceding to the report? If such
a doctrine were to be laid down, how
would it be when an impeachment was
thought necessary by a committee of the
whole House ? Why, in that case, as the
whole House had been in the committee,
the report could not be received, and an
impeachment could never be instituted.
He allowed that the analogy which had
been drawn between the appointment of
a secret committee on this occasion and
the functions of a grand jury fell short
and imperfect; as also that between it
and the case of a judge in the King's-
bench granting a criminal information,
which he might afterwards be called upon
to try, but, unless such a committee were
appointed, they must always originate
measures without knowing or caring any
thing about the necessity of doing so.
He was well aware that he had often been
represented, not indeed as a velocipede
judge, but as one who was fond of delay;
but in spite of such representations he
should always make use of and grant that
delay which was essential to the purposes
of justice. The legal advisers of her ma-
jesty were now requesting delay, not in-
deed in the progress, but in the com-
mencement of the prosecution, on the
ground that they knew nothing of the
charges to be exhibited against her ma-
jesty, and had all thewitnesses to collect re-
quisite to defend heragainst them. In saying
that no more delay than wasnecessary ought
to be granted to them, lie thought he was
acting in the most impartial manner to-
wards those two illustrious personages
who were most interested in this inquiry.
Such delay as was necessary, he must
again repeat, he would willingly grant;
but he could not see on what grounds her
majesty's legal advisers, or indeed any of
the noble lords who seconded their argu-
ments, could demand a delay of two
months, when, according to their own
showing, they knew nothing of the charges
exhibited against her majesty, and there-
fore could not possibly be informed of the
witnesses who might be wanted to refute
them. As for himself he cared little for
the decision to which the House might


Secret Cominitiee on thle Ilapers







relating to the Conduct of the Queen.


come that evening, provided it pursued
such measures as were calculated to pro-
mote the dignity of the Crown, and the
interests of the empire: he had stated the
reasons which had induced him to oppose
the motion of the noble lord for the dis-
charge of the order of the day, and he
could assure the House, that he had
stated them with the utmost sincerity. If
further proceedings in this important in-
quiry should be deemed necessary, he
should enter upon them in the spirit so
ably described by an eminent English
judge, who declared that he had made a
covenant with God and himself, that nei-
ther affection nor any other undue prin-
ciple should ever make him swerve from
the strict line of his duty. In that spirit
he had always endeavoured to act during
the past, and should endeavour to act in
the future. The consciousness of doing
so would be the best consolation he could
possess if he should appear to the friends
whom he esteemed to act wrongly, and
would form his best title for pardon at
the hands of that God, before whose tri-
bunal all mankind must sooner or later
stand to be judged.
The Marquis of Lansdownecommenced
by observing, that much as it would pain
him to differ on any occasion with his no-
ble friend who had brought forward the
present motion-and it would give him
more pain to differ from him on this than
on any other question-still he must so-
lemnly declare, that, if he could bring
himself to think that the House was in a
situation in which it could consistently
with its own dignity and the principles of
justice rightly understood,either close this
painfulscene forever, or enter upon itafresh
with a better chance of success than that
which had attended their late efforts, he
would most certainly not give his vote in
favour of the motion of his noble friend.
But not seeing that there was any chance
of effecting either of those purposes, he
should not enter into any idle discussions
upon them, but should confine himself en-
tirely to the question at present before the
House, which was indeed ofitselfsufficient
to occupy their undivided attention. He
would therefore ask, whether the mode of
proceeding, to which, after repeated ad-
journments, it was now proposed to ad-
here, was, in the first place, consistent
with the forms of the House; and, in the
second place, whether it was calculated, if
it was necessary-and if it was not neces-
sary, it certainly was not calculated-to


further the great work which it seemed
now determined that the House should
immediately commence ? And here he
could not help observing, that ministers
had done that which they ought not to
have done-they had assumed to them-
selves the right of determining what the
Commons of England would do with re-
gard to the accusations which were now
laid before them. Both the noble lord
on the woolsack, and the noble earl oppo-
site had argued the question upon what
they supposed the opinions of the House
of Commons would be, and upon the al-
leged crimes which were contained in the
green bag now before them. This he main-
tained, was not proper, because as the no-
ble lord on the woolsack had told them
that he had, during the whole course of
his professional life, learned and laborious
as that life had been in the practice of the
law, entertained until very lately opinions
diametrically opposite to those which he
now held on the subject of high treason,
as committed by a queen of England, it
was possible that there might still be in
the House of Commons men entertaining
the opinions so lately rejected by the no-
ble and learned lord, and determined to
act upon those opinions, in opposition to
the line so positively marked out both by
the noble and learned lord himself, and
also by his noble colleague. But the no-
ble and learned lord had only alluded to
one accusation-of which, though he well
knew the nature, he (the marquis of Lans-
downe) would forbear, as long as he could,
to mention the name-when lie (lord
Eldon) well knew that there were other
matters of misconduct contained in the
bag on the table, not at all connected with
the description of the offence to which he
had before alluded. Had they, when such
was the case, any right to assume that the
House of Commons was perfectly certain
to adopt the same line of conduct as that
which they had recommended ? They had
assumed it; but what was the real fact ?
He was not disposed to violate the forms
of that House by alluding to phrases used
in the other House of Parliament, though
he was inclined to contend that those
phrases were the very phrases used
within it; but to the votes of that other
House, he was bound to look, whenever it
received a communication from the Crown.
Had that communication, he would ask,
been disposed of by the other House?
No: but he found that a specific resolu-
tion had been made to defer the consider-


JUNu 27, 1820. [30







31] HOUSE OF LORDS,


ation of it for six months, and that it had
been rejected. Was he not entitled from
that circumstance to inter, that the Com-
mons would still consider it? It was his
opinion that they would; and he therefore
must contend, that until they had deter-
mined whether a judicial proceeding
against her majesty ought or ought not to
be 'nstituted, their lordships ought not to
appoint a committee to examine a subject
on which they might afterwards be called
upon to decide as judges. But why
not?" said the noble and learned lord on
the woolsack; members of committees
have always been allowed in times past to
vote upon the important questions which
they may have examined in those com-
mittees." He could not help observing,
that at the very time when the noble and
learned lord uttered these words, he al-
most perceived that there was no analogy
between the two cases. The cases which
he had quoted were cases in which pro-
ceedings had originated with their lord-
ships ; in the present case measures might
originate with the other House, which it
was not possible to originate among their
lordships. With respect to proceed-
ings in the other House of Parliament, and
against a most illustrious individual, their
lordships, by instituting any measure,
would disqualify themselves from judging;
and they would thus disqualify themselves
without any precedent, and without that
regard to justice whichlhad alwaysgovern-
ed, ought always to govern, and he hoped,
would always govern their lordships' con-
duct. But if their lordships were not to
disqualify themselves from acting as judges
by the instituting of a secret committee,
still he must consider a secret committee
most inexpedient, because most unjust.
A noble lord had said that there were no
instances of bills of pains and penalties,
without inquiry; butsince the Revolution it
had not been the practice of that House to
institute bills of pains and penalties,
and therefore it was difficult for him to
find an instance of previous inquiry with-
out a secret committee. In the last in-
stance on their records before the Revo-
lution-that of lord Clarendon-there had
been no committee appointed in that
House, and no previous inquiry. It was
true, there had been inquiry in another
House, and an impeachment had been
voted, when lord Clarendon withdrew out
of the country. But there had been al-
ready one ex-parte inquiry in this cause ;
there had been already a secret commis-


sion appointed, notoriously for inquiring
into the conduct of the illustrious party
now accused. He would not here say
whether that commission had been neces-
sary or not necessary, he did not consider
whether it had been properly or impro-
perly instituted; whether it had been pro-
perly or improperly conducted; but if
another secret inquiry was now proposed,
surely that illustrious person was at least
entitled to say, Let me have no more
secret inquiry ; if I am accused, let me
fairly hear the charges against me, and
offer my defence." But if they were now
to institute other measures than had be-
fore been intended, they must surely
apply their attention to the settled rules of
the House. In former instances, the
House must have been governed by es-
tablished and recognized rules. The
orders and rules of proceeding in that
House were a shield of protection, not an
optional mode of proceeding. God for-
bid that that House should not have the
most solemn records to authorize and re-
gulate their proceedings! But he asked,
whether it was not a great defect to find
not a single instance before of a bill of
Pains and Penalties thus instituted ? The
only argument that had in the first in-
stance been urged for this proceeding was,
that it was for the benefit of the accused.
But surely the accused had a right to dis-
claim that benefit. Here, then, was a
proceeding proposed which was not ne-
cessary, which was calculated to excite the
most unfavourable suspicions and appre-
hensions, which would disqualify theirlord-
ships from the free and unprejudicedexer-
cise of their peculiar functions, and which
the illustrious accused said was calculated
to prejudice her defence, and could be no
benefit. Was he not therefore entitled to
say that this mode of proceeding was in-
expedient ? Therefore the proceeding by
a secret committee, he contended was
calculated only for delay, which was al-
ready too great. As long as there was
any prospect of preventing any disclosure
to the public, delay might have been
proper and useful ; but from the moment
that such prospect ceased to exist, and
that had been notoriously the case so far
back as last summer, all delay had in fact,
and could have, only the effect of agitat-
ing unnecessarily the public mind, and of
prejudicing justice in the greatest cause
which could come before their lordships.
Yet when they had instituted this com-
mittee their lordships had not advanced


Secret Cowirniltce on the Papers~1.







relating to the Conduct of the Queen.


one step. The names on the committee
were unquestionably respectable. But
when they considered that his majesty's
ministers were among them, and that they
had been examining and considering the
documents to be laid before the committee
for more than a year, and had not agreed
whether they should become public ac-
cusers or not, what could be expected
from the committee? When the noble
earl had brought down the papers, he had
avoided as much as possible saying any
thing of the view taken of them by minis-
ters, and he hadt for the first time this night
said that ministers were public accusers.
Yet there were others of his majesty's mi-
nisters, who had the same opportunities of
inquiring into the merits, and who said
that they were not accusers, and never
would be accusers. Would the addition
of two, three, or four of their lordships to
the number of ministers, elicit any thing
more consistent or more satisfactory, or
possess greater authority with their lord.
ships ? They would therefore be reduced
to the authority of those who had brought
down the message, and on that authority
they would be obliged to proceed, or not
proceed at all. Why, then, institute a
secret committee, which could only excite
alarm and agitation throughout the coun-
try, and prove prejudicial to the character
of the illustrious accused, and the inter-
ests of justice? He had carefully consi-
dered the subject, and he certainly did
not feel it to be his duty to attend that
committee. If by attending the commit-
tee he could be of service in the slightest
degree to justice-if he could, without
that publicity which was precluded by
such an inquiry, promote truth-if he
could be of use in any fair and consistent
shape, he would have attended, and made
every sacrifice of feeling and private in-
clination. But as it was not so, he would
decline to attend. He had refrained from
saying so till now, because he had enter-
tained hopes, though from the beginning
his hopes had been faint, of an arrange-
ment that would save their lordships from
all inquiry on the subject. Before lie sat
down he begged leave to express his
anxious hope and his fervent wish that in
this proceeding-the most awful, the most
pregnant with consequences which ever
came under the consideration of that
House--since unfortunately they must
now in some shape be engaged in it, they
would not sink themselves, but raise their
characters, both as individuals and as a
VOL. II.


JUNE 27, 1820.


judicial assembly, by discharging their du-
ties in such a manner as that they could
stand acquitted in the face of the country
at large. He trusted that they would ex-
ercise their judicial functions with all that
caution, with all that regard toprecedents,
and with all that consideration of future
consequences which they were bound to
exercise, not only from a sense of duty to
the illustrious individual accused, but
from a sense of the consequences to the
country at large. He should give his vote
for the motion of his noble friend; if the
secret committee still proceeded, lie
should abstain from attending, reserving
to himself the power of acting as occasion
might require.
The Lord Chancellor explained. In
reply to the noble marquis, he could state
that, in 1703, a message had been sent by
queen Anne to both Houses of Parlia-
ment, on the discovery of a conspiracy to
restore the Stuart family. That House
had then examined all the papers, with a
view to the best steps that could be taken.
There was a great distinction between the
legislative and judicial powers of that
House. In 1720, the Commons had taken
steps respecting transactions connected
with the South Sea company, and the re-
payment of money advanced in that spe-
culation. The Lords also had passed a
bill of pains and disqualifications, but the
Lords had originated that proceeding.
The distinction between the legislative
and judicial functions of that House was
often very nice; but that House could do
many things in originating such a pro-
ceeding which they could notdo in its pro-
gress.
The Earl of Donoughmore said, that
he certainly could not agree with his
noble friend as to the propriety of with-
drawing himself from the committee. It
was with great regret that he differed
from his noble friends upon this occasion,
but he had not arrived at his present con-
clusions without duly considering the
subject, examining it in all its bearings,
and looking to all its possible results. He
thought no reasonable man could object
to the conduct of his majesty's ministers
upon this occasion. They had not lost a
moment in bringing the subject before
the consideration of parliament, and the
House had lost no time in taking up the
royal charge, and appointing a secret
committee for its investigation. He
thought it right to pay a decent respect
to the persons who had brought forward
D







3.] IIOUSE OF LORDS, Sec
the accusation ; lie had voted for adjourn-
ment after adjournment, and if a further
adjournment had been proposed by his
majesty's ministers, he should still have
voted for it. It had been said that his
majesty's ministers were weak men ; that
they had not sufficient confidence in them-
selves; and that they had taken counsel
of both Houses of Parliament. Now, in
his opinion, this was not a fair ground of
accusation, and he thought it would be
much better for the country if they would
oftener take the advice of parliament.
Not a single argument had been employed
with a view of influencing the proceed-
ings of this House, except what was
founded upon the proceedings and
speeches of the other House of Parlia-
ment. He deprecated the idea of this
House being bound by the proceedings
of any other assembly, and he thought
all the difficulties and embarrassments
with which the present question was in-
volved, were attributable to a want of
attention on the part of the members of
the other House. He would put the case
of a person, who had once distinguished
himself as an advocate for another, and
who had shown great dexterity in her
cause, being suddenly seized with some
strange wandering, some unaccountable
forgetfulness, and being induced to make
a glowing speech against the individual,
for whom he had once exerted all his
eloquence; the right hon. gentleman to
whom he alluded had blended much of
panegyric in that speech; he had talked
of scenes,
----- Quique ipse dulcissima vidi,
Et quorum pars magna fui,"
[A laugh]. Yet it had been his own ac-
cusation, prepared by him in common
with others, and therefore an accusation
which lie ought to have supported. He
must take the freedom to say, that he did
not look upon the present proceeding as
a trial of the illustrious lady in question,
or even as the commencement of a trial;
it was only an inquiry whether there
should be a trial or not. He still perse-
vered in his original opinion, that such an
inquiry would be most conveniently and
most decently conducted by a secret com-
mittee; and the observations which had
fallen from the learned lord upon the
woolsack had convinced him, if he could
before have entertained any doubt upon
the subject, that such a measure was per-
fectly in conformity with the spirit and
usage of parliamentary proceeding.


r, / Comiltee on lte Papers [63
The Earl of Lauderdale said, it was
with great regret that he felt himself
compelled to differ with his noble friends
upon this most important question. He
could assure their lordships that he felt
most anxious that the illustrious person
accused should receive a fair trial; but
lie was anxious also that this House
should do its duty to another illus-
trious person, who had felt it due to
his dignity and honour to bring forward
this accusation. He agreed with the opi-
nion which had been stated to the House
by the learned lord on the woolsack, as to
the impossibility of proceeding in this
case upon the statute of Edw. 3rd. If the
illustrious personage were guilty of high
treason, she could only be so in conse-
quence of her participation in that
offence, and because there were no acces-
saries in this offence. The maxim that
" Accessorius sequitur naturam sui prin-
cipalis," was in this case most immedi-
ately applicable. The queen had, he ob-
served, sent counsel to the bar to ask that
opportunity should be afforded to allow
her to send for witnesses before any in-
quiry was instituted. But he would ask,
how it was possible for her majesty,
or her counsel to determine what
witnesses it might be necessary for
them to adduce, until it was known what
charges were to be preferred ? If witnesses
were sent for before the result of the pro-
posed inquiry were communicated to the
queen's counsel, they might be subject to
the inconvenience of collecting witnesses
upon points or charges, which, according
to that result, were not at all to be brought
forward. Would any man then maintain,
that it would be better for the object of
the learned counsel to have the delay
they required granted now by the House,
rather than after the report of the secret
committee should be made known to
them ? It appeared to him, indeed, that it
would have been wiser on the part of the
queen to require that the report of the
committee should be brought up before
she was called upon to collect evidence
for her defence against any charges which
that report might recommend. Such an
appeal, he could not help thinking much
more advisable than that which had been
made to the House. With respect to the
motion of his noble friend, he felt himself
called upon to vote against it. He had
now, for about forty years, had the
honour of a scat in that House, during
which he had frequently been a member







JuNIi. '21, 1S20. [CS


of secret committees upon the subject of
finance, and of the Bank for instance, and
he was willing to confide in the conduct
of tie ministers who sat in that House,
from what he had witnessed upon such
occasions; for although these ministers
had often expressed very strong opinions
in the House in opposition to his own,
upon questions referred to these com-
mittees, he had always found then in
such committees ready to give every due
consideration to any pointbrought forward.
Looking, then, to past experience, he
calculated upon similar coolness and im-
partiality of investigation upon the pre-
sent occasion, and lie should vote in fi-
vour of the proposition, for the sitting of
the committee.
The Marquis of Lansdowne, in ex-
planation, said, that in alluding to the
postponement proposed in the Hlouse of
Commons, lie had never intended to pro-
pose or recommend a similar measure to
their lordships. Hle did not intend to say,
that secret committees ought not to be
appointed in certain cases, but that the
present was not one of those cases, since
he was quite certain that the question
could be disposed of without having re-
course to a secret committee.
Lord Belliaven declared that lie could
not abstain from expressing his intention
to vote for the motion, while lie was not
at all inclined to oppose inquiry upon this
subject. On tie contrary, indeed, lie was
an advocate for inquiry, but it was for such
a public and open inquiry as was agree-
able to those principles of British justice
which lie had always been taught to ve-
nerate, and not for any mode of inquiry
which was inconsistent with those princi-
ples, and especially when the party ac-
cused so strongly objected to it. The queen,
lie could readily suppose, might see reasons
for this objection, of the propriety of which
the House was not competent to decide,
and particularly from her knowledge of
the machinations employed against her;
and therefore, feeling it his duty to yield
to her appeal, lie would vote for the
motion.
Lord Bulkelelq regretted that on this
occasion lie was called upon to differ from
those with whom lie usually concurred;
but from a reverence for those principles
of British jurisprudence which, since he
was a boy at school, lie had been taught
to hold sacred, lie felt it his duty to vote
for the motion.. ie could never, indeed,
allow himself to assent to the violation of


those principles, whatever might be the
rank of the party accused; and there-
fore he should be equally tenacious in this
instance, whether the accused were
merely Mrs. Brunswick, or the queen of
England [Hear, hear!]. The noble lord
again declared, that lie differed with pain
from those with whom lie generally
agreed; but he was urged by a strong
sense of duty to say, as lie could not he-
sitate to do were it even his last word,
that lie deprecated the course which they
proposed to pursue upon the present oc-
casion.
Lord Holland said, that in giving his
vote, as le intended, for the motion of
his noble friend, lie should make no pro-
mise as to what course lie might ulti-
mately think it proper to support. He
had from the outset disapproved of the
course which ministers had taken, from a
conviction of the irregularity and incon-
venience of their proceedings ; and of that
irregularity and inconvenience many of
the ministers themselves had since be-
come fully sensible. Nay, two of the
noble lords who were appointed on the
secret committee, had that night stated
their intention not to attend that com-
mittee from an impression of its irregula-
rity. The reasons stated by those noble
lords were no doubt different, but their
resolution was quite the same. 'lThose
noble lords, whom he was proud to call
his friends, had, throughout life, rendered
such services to the cause of justice and
liberty, that no one was more ready to
acknowledge those services than himself,
and especially with respect to his noble and
learned friend behind him (lord Erskine).
He therefore regretted to differ from his
noble and learned friend upon this subject
on a former occasion. Since that occasion.
however, his noble and learned friend had
this night observed, that the case under
consideration was materially altered, and
therefore his opinion had undergone a
change. The case, had, indeed, been
altered, as appeared from the proceedings
elsewhere. He would not rcfer to the
conduct of the other House of Parlia-
ment, to which two noble lords on the
other side had observed it would be irre-
gular to advert, although each of those
noble lords were themselves betrayed into
that irregularity. But lie would refer to
that which was matter of public notoriety,
namely, tile negotiation which had taken
place between two of the king's ministers
and the legal advisers of the queen. Their


rebaaling lo ihre C~onduccl Y'AD~c Queen..









lordshlips were aware of the protocols that or suspicion, that learned man was spe-
were published, and here he would ask cially requested to leave the country for
quid est protocol, or was there no word in sake of the public tranquillity. No money,
the English language to answer the pur- however, was offered to the noble lord.
pose without importing this expression ? nor was there any negotiation or protocol
The subject of those protocols had, how- respecting him. Lord Clarendon, as it
ever, materially altered this case, as well might naturally be supposed, did not like
as certain resolutions, which were also the proposition to abandon his country.
matter of notoriety, and in the adoption In deference to authority, however, he
of which, several of the ministers them- was induced to leave it, and within three
selves had concurred. From these nego- days after his departure, a bill of pains
tiations and resolutions, then, it was cvi- and penalties was preferred against him
dent, that this question had been changed for flying from justice. But the present
since its former discussion in that House, case was directly the reverse, as it was
and principally too through the conduct proposed to the illustrious personage
ofministers themselves. Buthisnoblefriend under consideration, that if she would fly
(lord Lauderdale), and lie was surprised the country she would be rewarded for
to witness it, avowedly confined his con- her flight by such a liberal grant of the
fidence to those ministers who were mem- public money as might enable her to main-
bers of that House. Upon their conduct, tain her station abroad. The proposition
it seemed, his noble friend was disposed was however rejected, and thus we were
fully to rely in the proceedings meant to in a different situation respecting her ma-
be investigated by the seciet committee, jesty from that which regarded lord Cla-
from which the motion proposed to re- rendon. Looking, then, to all the cir-
lieve the House. His noble friend had cumstances of her majesty's situation, he
also become an advocate, in a great de- thought his noble friend must agree with
gree, for the institution of secret com- him in thinking that a very strong ground
mittecs, but without stating the grounds of state necessity should be made out
of that advocacy very fairly. Against before their lordships could consistently
this system of secret committees, how- institute an inquiry which, according to
ever, lie (iord IH.) could not hesitate to high authority, would inevitably prove
enter his prote-t, for although he hiad not derogatory from the dignity of the Crown,
long lived in this world, it was his morti- and injurious to the best interests of the
fying fate to see the liberties of his coun- empire [Hear, hear !]. But what degree
try more than once subverted by the of state necessity could be adduced or
system of secret committees, preceded by imagined for inquiry upon this occasion,
accursed green bags [Hear, hear!]. He merely because the queen thought proper
had, indeed, in one instance, seen the to return to, or to remain upon English
constitution suspended through such a ground? Ministers had said tlat they
proceeding, within the space of twenty- would state this necessity before a secret
four hours, and when onlv seven members committee. But was it consistent or cus-
of that House were pre:rent to deliberate tomary to determine upon the sitting of
upon the measure. It had been said, that such a committee before any such neccs-
bills of pains and penalties might origi- sity was stated, or was it enough to tell
nate in that House ; but this doctrine he the House that it should wait for a state-
utterly denied, and challenged its advo- ment of the ground of that necessity
caLts to produce any precedent in its fa- until the secret committee brought up its
your. He, indeed, was decidedly of opi- report? It was inconsistent and unjust,
union, that such measures should rather he would maintain, to call upon any por-
originate in the other House of Parlia- tion of their lordships to make out
ment, as they had usually or uniformly charges upon which they might afterwards
done. It could not be pretended, that be called to decide as judges. The
since the Revolution any case had oc- learned lord on the woolsack had, no
curred at all analogous to the present. doubt, alleged that the green bag con-
There was, no doubt, a case upon record tained nothing that could justify impeach-
which had some analogy, but to which it ment, and this allegation the learned lord
must seem somewhat ludicrous to allude grounded upon the strange doctrine that
-he meant the case of lord Clarendon, nothing was impeachable that was not
who was said to have been implicated in indictable at common law, in which doc-
a great conspiracy. l pmn thib Sb'.ater n iit trine his noble and learned friend behind


Secret Comm~ittee on the Papers


59)] HOUSE OF LORDS,








him had concurred. But notwithstanding most important functions of parliament.
the very high authority of both those With respect to proceeding by impeach-
noble and learned lords, he would ever ment, it had been resorted to but twice
maintain that such doctrine was contrary fur several years. Impeachment," as
to the constitution of the country, parti- had been observed by a great lawyer,
cularly to the privileges of parliament. is a Goliah's sword, and can only be
It was a proposition utterly untenable in- removed from the temple on great occa-
deed that the rules of the lower courts sions." It was a weapon which only ap-
could fetter the discretion of parliament, plied under circumstances in which no
or that no public officer could be ima. other course of proceeding could apply:
peached unless he committed such an so far were indictable" and impeach-
offence as was cognizable at common law. able," from being convertible terms. The
The lex consutetudo pailiamenti was no question under consideration was briefly
doubt a part of the common law, but he this, whether the method of proceeding
never could subscribe to the doctrine that by a secret committee, was the proper
indictable and impeachable offences were course that should be pursued on this oc-
convertible terms. The establishment of' caion ? No individual had argued that
such a doctrine, indeed, would serve to the decision of a secret committee might
exempt ministers from all efficient res- not be necessary, might not be useful,
ponsibility, unless for offences of the under peculiar circumstances. All that
utmost magnitude known to the law. It' had been said on that side of the House
their lordships valued those constitutional was, that it was neither proper, just, nor
doctrines, on which, in the best times, necessary, on the present occasion. He,
the dearest interests of the people were and his noble friends were of opinion, that
supposed to depend, they would allow no employing a secret committee, where it
authority from the woolsack, nor from the was not absolutely necessary, was an ex-
benches of that House, to poison their tremely unwholesome practice; not be-
minds against an old and sound constitu- cause it was of necessity an unjust pro-
tional doctrine, for the purpose of receiv- ceeding, but because it was one out of
ing another which would render the which so many monstrous acts had arisen,
ministers of this country completely irre- that it could not give satisfaction to the
sponsible characters. Suppose an am- public mind. With respect to precedents
bitious, factious, weak, or injudicious in favour of such a course, he could see
minister to involve this country unneces- no precedents in the case. The noble
sarily in war-to bring on this empire the earl had adduced instances of secret com-
greatest of possible calamities-would not mittees having been appointed in this and
his conduct be liable to punishment ? Cer- the other House on great public ques-
tainly it would. But that punishment tions, when messages had been sent down
could not he awarded in a common court by the king ; but he did not state any
of law; an indictment could not be there instance where a message was sent by
preferred against him. lie was, however, the Crown relative to the conduct of an
accountable to parliament. If, with re- individual. O," said the noble lord,
aspect to this illustrious personage, the a similar course has been proposed by
first subject in the country (and lie ministers in the House of Commons."
%wished it had been generally recollected There, however, they must be considered
that she was the first subject in the in the light of accusers-they had only
country), the queen-consort, placed in ai one character to appear in-they might
high oflice-if, in her case, ministers con- proceed to the end with unstained honour.
ducted themselves so as to create a great But it was a very different thing, with re-
evil, they were, he maintained, account- ference to their lordships, who would be
able to parliament for it. This, he was called on to judge a party at the bar on
sure, was the doctrine of lord Somers, whose case they lad previously formed an
and of all the great men who had been opinion. There was not only no prece-
distinguished as parliamentary lawyers. dent, but he would go farther, and say,
He therefore thought, when ministers the analogies were all against the noble
were laying a bag of accusations on the earl. If they looked back to bishop At-
table, that they should have recognized terbury's case, the Crown, on that occa-
this principle, and made no allusion to sion, had seen a number of papers, be-
the common law. If a contrary doctrine longing to a Mr. Layer; and, having
were held, it would be subversive of the looked at these papers, the advisers of the


reclalinar to the Conrduct of the Quccneil


JunB 27, lbS20. E 4 -9








Crown thought they saw in them the and convenience of a particular time. If
proofs of a very extensive conspiracy, this were so, he contended, that the opi-
with which bishop Atterbury was con- nion of the public ought to be looked to,
nected. The Crown deemed it necessary with respect to the method of proceeding.
to address both Houses of Parliament on He would say even more-that the feel-
the subject. The address stated, that ings of those connected with this case
there were good grounds to believe that should not be overlooked. He knew no-
an extensive conspiracy existed, and thing at all of the merits of the case;
called on parliament to take into consi- though he knew her majesty by sight, he
deration what proceeding it wouhl be was not personally acquainted with her;
proper to adopt. Did ministers call for but as to the particular charges, he had
bishop Atterbury at that time ? No. Did no sort of information on the subject ; he
they send bags down to both Houses of would, however, not speak of treating her
Parliament? No. They sent a sealed majesty as an illustrious personage; he
bag, containing papers, to the House of would look to her case as to the case of
Commons. The papers were examined, any accused person who was supposed to
and the House, for some reason or other, have committed an offence, and he would
did not think it necessary to come to any demand for her the same measure of jus-
resolution with respect to those papers. tice. Could they on such an occasion
They deemed it better to legislate; and adopt an anomalous proceeding, as he had
a bill of pains and penalties was intro- shown that this would be? If any one
duced. It was immediately passed, and part of the proceeding was not necessary,
along with the sealed bag sent to the and if that part were considered by her
House of Lords.-Notwithstanding all majesty to be offensive, he conceived that
that had been said to induce them that alone would be a good reason for
to agree to this committee, he would changing the measure. He contended
call on their lordships not to adopt that that to proceed by a secret committee,
course. He wished to know did the would be to prejudge thecase on ex-parle
people on this occasion, look silently at evidence, although they had been gravely
the proposed measure ? He did not wish told that it would not have that effect.
to enter into the general measures of ad- But, not long ago, a motion was made for
ministration, but he could not help smiling an inquiry into the conduct of the Man-
when the noble earl so triumphantly ap- chester magistrates. Ministers then said
pealed to the period during which the that an inquiry of that kind would be such
counsels of himself and his colleagues had a prejudging of the question as they never
prevailed. If the noble lord was so highly could consent to. In the present case,
delighted with his own handiworks, with however, they thought differently, and
the general state of the country, with the they talked of the great impartiality
present situation of its agriculture and its which they had displayed throughout the
commerce, he was glad to find that his business. When the motion he alluded
mind was so easily satisfied. Si cst ca to was made, ministers said, We under-
gloriafloreat." It was a species of glory stand what you mean when you move for
in which he did not wish to participate. this inquiry : it is equivalent to a vote of
The noble earl had stated what, in his censure. If it were agreed to, who would
opinion, would have been the consequence act in the capacity of a magistrate ?" But
if the counsels recommended by his noble now, it was not only just, but it was a
friend (earl Grey) had been adopted. It most merciful proceeding, to institute a
was, he conceived, paying no very great secret investigation. An inquiry into the
compliment to the noble earl, nor was it conduct of the queen, was, it appeared,
very consolatory to the country, when he merciful: but to examine the proceedings
said that, had the advice in question been of a number of magistrates would be de-
acted on, the results would not have been grading and insulting in the highest de-
worse than those which had taken place. gree He could not conceive how it was
With respect to the question immediately possible that the committee could finish
before them, he must observe that the this business in a few days, or a few weeks.
rules which regulated a court of law, or Persons had been coming over who had
those which directed a court of impeach- been employed in collecting all those de-
ment, ought never to be departed from tails for a year: a commission had been
through a feeling of favour, although they sent out; a report had been made by that
might be new modelled to suit the justice commission, which had, of course, been


43] HOUSE OF LORDS,


Secret Committee on Ihe Papers







relating to the Conduct of the Queen.


seen by his majesty's ministers. They
had not stopped here; they had stated
all they knew to the greatest law authori-
ties in the kingdom, who considered the
alleged crime in all its bearings. After
this paraphernalia of preparation had
been resorted to, ministers came down to
the House and said, We will not state
what we intend to do, but will leave the
matter to the opinion of a secret commit-
tee." He would say, with reference to
that committee, that if it had not been
called for, they would not now have been
placed in the state of embarrassment in
which they stood. What that committee
could now do, which might not have been
effected a year before, he could not say.
He was sorry to see on that committee
the metropolitan of England, who of
course had sanctioned the striking out of
her majesty's name from the Liturgy, as
one of his majesty's advisers. In opposing
the motion for a committee, could it be
supposed that independent peers in that
House were actuated by any ill feeling
towards ministers ? Did they not know
that the feeling of the people out of doors
was universally opposed to such a pro-
ceeding ? No precedent, nor even any
analogy, could be produced to support
the motion. If the committee expressed
a strong opinion, or was looked upon as a
high authority upon the subject, it was
then liable to all those objections which
he had before stated, because it tended to
prevent the impartial administration of
justice. If on the contrary, it merely
pointed out what course the House should
pursue, where was the necessity for ap-
pointing it ? Could not his majesty's ad-
visers, as they had often done before,
point out the line of conduct which it was
deemed necessary to adopt ? But, said
the learned lord, there should be previous
inquiry in all parliamentary proceedings.
From this doctrine he wholly dissented.
The principle of the constitution was pre-
cisely and extravagantly the reverse.
The only proceeding in the other House
of Parliament that one man could move
against another was an impeachment.
Any member might start up, without any
previous inquiry, and lay articles of im-
peachment on the table. There they
must lie for a fortnight without even being
seconded, and yet they were told that no
criminatory proceeding could take place
in parliament without previous inquiry.
Where was the previous inquiry in lord
Clarendon's case.? Where was the previ-


JUNE 27, 1~20. [40


ous inquiry in the case of a noble friend
(lord Ellenborough), now no more, for
whom he had always entertained a most
sincere regard ? In this latter instance,
the sense of the House was decidedly
against the impeachment ; and yet all the
wisdom of parliament could not remove
the articles from the table for a fortnight.
The noble lord again shortly adverted to
the words used in the resolutions of the
House of Commons, which, he contended,
stated most plainly, that by proceeding in
this course they were derogating from the
dignity of the Crown, and injuring the
best interests of the country. For his
own part, he looked upon the proceeding
by committee to be unconstitutional, un-
necessary, odious, and unseemly. Their
lordships had, on a former occasion, when
it was discovered that bills of indictment
were sometimes found without full evi-
dence, passed an act to prevent the re-
currence of such a practice. Then their
lordships showed that accusations should
not rest upon light grounds. They should
be supported, in a case like the present,
either by the correspondence of the indi-
viduals implicated, by parole evidence, or
by evidence given before a competent au-
thority in this country. But much that
was contained in this bag must, fiom the
very nature of things, be the depositions
of unknown persons. Such evidence was
not fit to be laid before a secret committee,
because the members ot it could have no
opportunity of deciding on its veracity.
There never was a subject that so com-
pletely agitated the feelings of the people
of this country, from one end of it to the
other, and therefore it should be handled
with extreme caution; and he implored
the House to consider well the dangerous
consequences that might result from
taking a false step unnecessarily, if not
unjustly. In another point of view, he
could not help calling on them to proceed
with the utmost circumspection. He al-
luded to the effect which their conduct
would produce throughout the country.
If they proceeded rashly, people would
be apt to say that the House of Commons
had acted with spirit, that it was a mettle-
some steed, which ministers could not
manage, and that therefore they were
obliged to go back to their old pack-
horse-the House of Lords. This per-
haps would be said, not in consequence
of the substance of what they did, but
with reference to the form and mode in
which they had proceeded. On all these







Secret Committee on Mhe Papers, cSc.


grounds he would vote for the motion of Lord Dacre disclaimed the slightest in-
his noble friend. tention personally to offend the right re-
The Archbishop of Canterbury said, verend prelate. In bringing forward the
after what had been stated by two noble petition of her majesty, he hal observed
lords in the course of the debate, it was that some of the noble lords who formed
necessary that he should declare his feel- the secret committee, had in some way or
ings on this occasion. The noble mover, other already formed an opinion. That
who adverted to the list of those appointed the ministers who had laid the bag on the
to go into this inquiry, objected to the table must have formed an opinion was
name of the archbishop of Canterbury, not denied; but it was doubted whether
because, as the noble lord stated, he was the right reverend prelate was pledged on
the responsible adviser of the Crown with the subject, or whether he was the re-
respect to the alteration of the Liturgy; sponsible adviser of the omission of the
and another noble lord was of opinion queen's name in the Liturgy. The noble
that the archbishop of Canterbury was lords on the other side might assume the
the constitutional adviser of the Crown responsibility, but they could not divest
on that point. Now, he believed that the person who was legally responsible of
neither of the noble lords was correct on that character. If the archbishop sub-
this question. If they were correct, they nmitted the alteration to the king, and re-
would have the goodness to show where turned to the council and declared the
their authority lay. Was it in the act of king's will, he was the king's adviser; and
parliament? The only act he was ac- though not removable, was impeachable
quainted with on the subject was the act for bad advice.
of uniformity. Was their authority to be The Earl of Liverpool again explained.
found there ? He must conclude that The alteration of the Liturgy was made
unless they pointed out the ground on by the declaration of the king in council.
which their statement rested, it was a gra- It might be a question whether all the
tuitous assertion. He would tell the lords present at the council were not
noble lords that he was willing to relin- strictly responsible, but as in reality the
quish his station on the committee in declaration was made in all cases by the
question, if the noble lords could point out advice of the committee of the council,
such grounds as would be satisfactory to generally called the cabinet, they were
the House, and which would not impeach the persons on whom parliament would
his integrity as a public or a private man. fix the responsibility. As for the right
Lord Holland explained, that nothing reverend prelate, he, in communicating
was farther from his intention than to im- the order to his clergy, had no discretion
peach the integrity of the right reverend left him.
prelate. But as that right reverend pre- Earl Grey said, the right reverend pre.
late conveyed the acts of the king as head late, in communicating the order in coun-
of the church to the clergy of England, cil to his clergy, acted ministerially, and
and as there was no act done by the king might not be for that act responsible. But
in that or any other character, for which in signing it as a privy councillor, he un-
there was not some ostensible and respon- questionably made himself responsible;
sible adviser, he considered the right re- for the parliamentary power of impeach-
verend prelate as responsible for the al- I ment was held not only to check pernici-
teration in the Liturgy. ous advisers, but to deter any persons
The Earl of Liverpool said, the altera- fromexecutingillegalcommands. Though,
tion of the Liturgy was the act of the therefore, the cabinet ministers were the
king's confidential servants who had ad- persons more peculiarly responsible, yet
vised it, and who were prepared to justify no one who had lent himself to the exe-
its legality and its expediency. The act i cution by his signature could be exempt
was done in council, and the lords of the from responsibility. In some cases, in-
council who were present were perhaps 1 deed, it was necessary to address the
strictly responsible; but in the practice Crown to learn who were its advisers, as
since the Revolution, the acts done in in the case of a negative given to bills,
council were preceded by advice on the for then no signature appeared; but to
part of the king's confidential servants, acts of the council there were the signa-
who were thus the peculiar objects ofres- tures of the councillors [" Not always,"
ponsibility. The archbishop merely acted from lord Liverpool, not in this case"],
ministerially, and was obliged to execute at least there was an entry in the council
the orders in council. books of the lords present.


47] HOUSE OF; LORDS,







49] Education of ihe Poor.
The Earl of Darnley said, he did not
rise to make any remarks, but to state,
that as the advice of the ministers to omit
the name of the queen from the Liturgy
was the cause of the present embarrass-
ment of parliament, if no other lord, bet-
ter qualified to do it justice, took up the
subject, he should call the attention of the
House specially to it.
The House divided: Contents, 47;
Not-Contents, 102; Majority against the
motion, 55.

List of the Minority.


Duke of Somerset
Grafton
De\onshire
Hamilton
Argyll
Marq. of Lansdowne
Downshire
Earl of Essex
Jersey
Breadalbane
Roseberry
Cowper
Stanhope
Hardwicke
Darlington
Ilchester
Earl Spencer
Grosvenor
Fortescue
Carnarvon
Darnley
Rosslyn
Romney
Grey


Minto
Blesinton
Viscount Anson
Bulkeley
Hood
Down
Lord De Cliflbrd
Dacre
Sayeand Sele
Belhaven
King
Holland
Ducie
Foley
Gage
Auckland
Yarborough
Calthorpe
Carrington
Lilford
Alvanley
Erskine
Crewe


IOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, June 28.
EDUCATION OF THE POOR.] Mr.
Brougham rose. He said, he returned
his best thanks for the candour and the
kindness of both the hon. gentlemen, in
allowing him the precedence; and now,
without any further preface, he would at
once enter upon the subject he wished to
bring before the House. After a very
long period of time employed upon its
consideration, he had at length determin-
ed to bring forward a motion, which in
his estimation, was second to none in its
magnitude or its importance. Parliament
had been for some time, indeed, occupied
upon what might be vulgarly considered
a topic of more importance, a question
to which the most intense attention of the
nation had been directed; but by the pro-
duction of the plan which he was about
to submit to parliament, he trusted, that
VOL. II.


JuNE 28, 1820. [50
he should put it in the power of the
House to do a benefit to mankind which
would exist and be widely felt, long after
that question should have been determin-
ed, and long after the differences which
existed between the individuals (illustri-
ous as they were) who were more imme-
diately connected with it, should have
been forgotten. He well knew that this
was a very unfortunate moment for bring-
ing forward a question proceeding upon
such abstract principles as the present
one; and he could only hope that the
House would assist him, by its candour
and attention, in listening with as little
interruption as possible to the develope-
ment and elucidation of those principles,
which became, for that very reason the
more indispensable. Without meaning
for one moment, or in the slightest de-
gree, to convey any thing like a sneer
or a sarcasm, he would beg leave to say,
that if any lion. gentleman should feel
that the subject before the House was
one which possessed not sufficient in-
terest to command his attention, it would
be better that he should remove to
scenes more capable of exciting that in-
terest within him. It was now more
than two years since those proceedings,
the result of which it was now his duty
to bring before them were commenced.
They had been since pursued with va-
rious success, but with equal industry,
perseverance, and zeal upon the part of
the gentlemen who were engaged in
them. Their inquiries and exertions had
produced a mass of statistical information,
which, for its importance and its kind,
was equally unprecedented; for, instead
of possessing the dry, abstract, and unin-
teresting character of statistics (and they
who were versed in that science would
know that such, generally speaking, was
their nature), instead of mere numerical
details and elaborate calculations, those
inquiries had produced a vast body of
moral information, which, the more it
was studied and examined, would be
found to be the more important and va-
luable.
Before he proceeded further, lie felt
it his duty to return his most cordial
thanks to those reverend gentlemen,
without whose assistance they could not
have advanced a single step towards
that point of their labours at which they
had arrived-he meant the whole of the
clergy of the established church. It
was, however, quite impossible that any
E







51] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
words of his could do justice to the
zeal, the honesty, and the ability with
which they had lent their assistance to-
wards the attainment of tle great ob-
ject which had been proposed as the
result of the inquiries. Those reverend
persons had been actuated by no angry
feeling, and had manifested no degree
of impatience, when, from the circum.
stances of the nature of the information
which was required, and the length at
which it was to be detailed, their readi-
ness to undertake what they might have
considered a work of unnecessary labour
was a thinghardly in reason to be expected
from them. He candidly confessed tlat he
felt it incumbent upon him to enter a
little more into the statement which lie
thought it necessary to make upon this
part of the subject, in justice to the
important services of the reverend indi-
viduals in question. This was a measure
the great burden of which must of course
be thrown upon the ministers of the es-
tablished church. It might be proper,
therefore, rather to show, first of all,
what were the claims of those clergymen
to the confidence which this bill reposed
in them; and that he could not do in
any way so well as in stating merely
what it was which they had done. The
first work of the committee had been to
address a circular to the whole of the
clergy of England and Wales; the object
of which was to call their attention to
a variety of matters connected with the
present subject. The clergy set about
returning answers to these circulars;
and as a proof with what alacrity they
had exerted themselves in obedience to
the wishes of the House, as signified
through the committee, he need only
mention, that, a day or two after, lie
had received no less than 600 returns,
all in one day ; and, two days after that,
as many as 2,600; and that within one
week, about one-third of the whole cler-
gy had obeyed the wishes of the House,
-that was, all those who were suffici-
ently near the capital to make their re-
turns in such a space of time. After a
little while the committee received nearly
all the remainder; but, in a correspon-
dence maintained with so large a num-
ber of persons as 11,400, there were, as
might be expected, some defaulters; and
they amounted to 600. To these another
circular was addressed; whereupon, as
universally happened in such cases, their
number was soon greatly reduced; and


Educsalon ofthe Poor. [5%
about 200 ministers only were still de-
faulters. He had next to mention a cir-
cumstance, of which he would only say
beforehand, that there was no blame to be
attributed to the clerks at the post office,
nor to any of those channels of trans-
mission whose extraordinary fidelity, ac-
curacy, and dispatch, he most willingly
acknowledged; nor to any party more
immediately engaged in conducting or
aiding in the inquiries; nor indeed to
himself. By some accident, however,
there were 360 returns that were mis-
laid after the dissolution of parliament;
they were put into a box, for the pur-
pose of being taken care of, and could
not afterwards be found, as he should
have occasion subsequently to explain.
Another circular was in consequence ad-
dressed to the clergymen who had fur-
nished these returns. Now, it did so
happen, that these 360 returns had been
picked out of the whole 11,400, as being
the most elaborate, and the most ample
of them all. They had been so selected,
as pattern cards, if he might use the
term, of the rest. Owing to the mis-
conception occasioned by this unfortunate
accident, however, a letter was sent to
those gentlemen, couched in terms which
pretty smartly imputed to them neglect
and delay. Those very returns were a
second time called for from reverend
gentlemen who were thus chid, owing
to a mistake arising out of an accident,
(for which, he repeated, le was not
aware that any one was to blame);
which accident, ag.in, anse out of the
very fact of their superior industry, skill,
and attention, as testified in the returns.
Any one might have supposed that, after
this, those ministers would have felt
themselves hurt and aggrieved; and he
should not have been surprised, for one,
if they had answered publicly, and said,
that it was really too hard that they
should be again called upon to make out
returns which they had before sent up,
after infinite pains and some labour;
for many of them extended to the length
of ten pages and upwards. But would
the House believe-and he protested
that it did appear to him a most unex-
ampled and incomparable instance of a
very honourable and meritorious feeling
-that so great and so zealous was their
good-will to a most important national
object, and such the truly Christian meek-
ness and benevolence, which they evinced,
that out of those 360 clergymen no more









than two murmured at the fresh trouble of education in every quarter of the coun-
that was imposed upon them; and even try; and the.-e still remained for com-
those two transmitted the required returns, pleiion a separate volume containing sup-
togetherwiththeirremonstrances ? Some elementary statements, to which tables
of those gentlemen had fortunately kept were prepared to be added to render
copies of the statements which they ori- the whole as complete as possible to
finally sent to the committee; but others show the state of education, exhibiting
had not done so, and were under the in one view, or rather in various points
necessity of making out fresh returns, of view, the state of education in every
He knew that, in making this allusion county, parish, village, and even small
to the accident out of which the renewed hamlet, showing not only the actual state
applications in question originated, lie of education, but the defects which ex-
ran the risk of incurring some blame; isted in each. It would therefore re-
but he was content rather that blame quire but a few words to explain to
should be imputed to him, than that he those gentlemen the nature of his mo-
should fail to do justice to a body of tion, particularly its extension in a se-
men who had so handsomely and so li- parate form to England and Wales.-
berally exerted themselves to remedy There were also two keys printed; one
the loss of their own labours. The same was to the numerical tables of the Di-
reverend gentlemen had since answered gest, and the other referred more parti-
even private letters connected with this cularly to the subject. The Digest it-
subject, and letters written under no self consisted of an abstract of the in-
parliamentary authority whatever. Hle formations obtained, and in some parts
had himself sent private letters again recapitulated the very words of those
and again to them, always, of course, informations. His late lamented and ho:
making his most humble apologies for friend, the member for Bedford. in 18CG,
the trespass committed on their leisure, proposed a plan upon a similar subject, but
Another proof of the good- ill to the of a very different nature; Mr. Perceval
cause which lie was embarked in was obj cted to it, not with reference to itj
this-th.at if any one would look through principle, but because he thought pro-
the digest, lie would find that in many cases vious inquiry necessary: lie said, Haae
a foundation was supported entirely by thi a commission first, and then see whether,
charity and exertions of the incuibeint fiom the information to be derived under
himself. When he said this, he spoke it, a new and better plan may not be
of the working parish priests, of those the rciult." What Mr. Perceval recon-
meritorious individuals who, to their n'cil-:d lnid now been done. The com-
great i'! I.,e:', votedtd to this laudable i i n.i had made the necessary inquiries.
purpose a portion of their money and The resit showed the errors which had
their time. He did not speak of the hihierto existed. He held in his hand
more dignified prelate, who could not a calculation clearly proving how wide
of course be expected to reside upon of the mark writers upon these subjects
the one particular spot; nor of the plu- had been in former years, and how very
ralist, who could not, if lie would, reside ignorant they were of statistics. It was
there; hut he meant the working parish extracted from a book written in 1806,
minister-the true and effective labourer by )r. Colquhoun-a man who had
in the vineyard. In making this remark, been always considered, both here and
he meant no compliment to those re- on tihe continent, of great authority upon
verend gentlemen. It was merely an matters connected with political economy.
act of justice towards them. For himself, lie would own that he had
He had said thus much in order to always been doubtful of the infallibility
make out his case for intrusting the of such sweeping calculations as the
clergymen of the establishment with the doctor was accustomed to indulge in,
execution of the proposed plan rather nor could he ever reconcile to himself
than any other body of men in the king- the absolute truth of a numerical calcu-
dom. The result of' the labours of tie nation which went to ascertain, even to
committee was, that a Digest was pre- the fraction of a single woman of the
pared and ready to be put into the hands town, how many were the females in
of members, which would exhibit the London living by prostitution. Dr. Col-
clearest and most prompt information on quhoun was certainly a very lively writer,
every part of the subject, and the state and in some respects entitled to credit,


JUN-E 12, 1820O. [54


Edudrcation qf the Pooir.







551 HOUSE OF COMMONS, Education ofthe P'oor. [5(
but he was never more wide of the mark There was one difficulty which had for-
than when in an evil hour he undertook merely stood in the wayof such a plan as
to calculate the number of children in that he had now to submit, which no longer
the country whose parents were unable existed: it was one which had not in
to provide education for them. His first fact been often attempted to be urged
statement was-that there were two mil- against the progress of knowledge, even
lions of poor children in England and in a time of general ignorance-he meant
Wales, who were in want of education, the objection that education would prove
and 50,000 in London alone. Now it a detriment to the poor. He purposely
did so happen that there were not two avoided using the term "lower orders,"
millions of poor children at any one not from any deference to those who
time in existence in England and Wales, had so strenuously objected to it, and
because the number of children of an whose counsels and evil courses if they
age capable of education was reckoned had been followed, would have made
at one-ninth part of the whole popula- them low indeed. He knew not what
tion of a country at any time. He (Mr. rational objection there could be to the
Brougham) estimated them at one-tenth, appellation. Sure he was, that the fore-
although he knew that his opinion was fathers of those lower orders never found
contrary to that of almost every foreign fault with it. That House (the House
writer on these subjects. At this rate, of Commons) was called the lower
however, the poor population of England House of Parliament, but that term did
and Wales ought to be 20 millions, and not imply any degradation to the Com-
if the children of the rich were added mons; it was used as a term of distinc-
in an equal proportion (and he should tion between that and the other House.
be sorry if every other man were a pau- So it was when the lower orders
per). the whole population should be 40 were mentioned; the term was used to
millions. The next position of this au- distinguish them from those who were
thor was, that there were 1,750,000 in- above them in the scale of society. God
dividuals in Great Britain and Ireland forbid that he should say any thing
who grew up without education ; and it against the poorer classes of society, for
was a position of which he would say, what would the rich be without the poor?
without troubling the House further on Where would the pyramid be without
the subject, that it was equally absurd its base? To return to the question.
with the other. Here they had one cal- It appeared that since the peace of Ami-
culation which omitted the children of ens, and in consequence of what had
the rich altogether, and another which taken place at the French revolution,
made the number of poor children greater the education of the poorer classes was
in amount than the total number of chil- objected to by some persons in this coun-
dren in the country. The doctor went try, on the ground that it would make
on, however, to hazard another calcula- a man a worse subject. This was, how-
tion, which was yet more untenable; it ever, a modern idea. He could show,
was rather a proposition indeed; for he from historical authorities, that the edu-
said, "let there be built a school in each cation of the poor was by no means a
parish, capable of containing 800 poor novel object; but had been held in early
children." Now he (Mr. Brougham) ages, and by the wisest governments
had looked into this matter, and he the best security for the morals, the sub-
found that there were only 50 parishes ordination, and the peace of countries.
in the kingdom which did contain 800 In France, in the year 1582, under the
such children; and that 700 parishes only reign of Henry 3rd, the states-general
contained even so many as 400 children. met, and the noblesse of the day pre-
What was yet more was, that the aver- sented a petition to the sovereign, pray-
age amount taken upon all the parishes ing that pains and penalties might be
of England and Wales was only 85 and imposed upon those who would not send
not 800 children. So that, in fact, if their children to school; and nearly at
Dr. Colquhoun had been talking about the same time the Scotch parliament
the empire of China, he could not have (perhaps the most aristocratical body
arrived at conclusions much more erro- then in existence) passed a law that
neous. It only served to Ishow how every gentleman should send at least his
surely and how fatally false deductions eldest son to school, in order to learn
were derived d from false premises. grammar. In the 16th century, an or-







57] Education ifthe Poor.
der was made that all children should
attend school, and that alms and
charities should be refused to those per-
sons whose children did not so attend.
He had also seen a charter of king Da-
vid 1st, dated in 1241, in which men-
tion was made of various public schools
in Roxburgh, now a small village. An-
other charter dated 1163, spoke of the
schools of Stirling. Another in 1244,
noticed the number of schools at Ayr;
and a fourth, dated in 1256, made ho-
nourable mention of the praiseworthy
manner in which the schools of other
districts were conducted. Shortly before
the revocation of the edict of Nantes,
in 1680, the most intolerant period of
French history, was founded the first so-
ciety in the world, and, for a long time,
the only one, for the advancement of
education: its founder was the celebrated
Pere de la Salle, and the order was
denominated "Les Freres des Ignorants,"
and their vow was the foundation of
schools. That society had established
numerous schools for the education of
the poor. In 1724, which was also a
most intolerant period, pope Benedict
issued his celebrated bull, authorizing
and encouraging the extensive establish-
ment of places of education for the poor.
In that bull the pope mentioned the ex-
ample of the Pare de la Salle, and ex-
pressed himself in the following words:-
"Ex ignorantia omnium origine malo-
rum, priesertim in illis qui egestate op-
pressi sunt, et qui clementa Christiana
religions persaepe ignorant." A more
accurate, a more scientific description
of ignorance was never given, even by
Voltaire, than that in this instance pro-
mulgated by the enemy of that great
philosopher-by Benedict. He nowturn-
ed to a different authority. From that
of Pere de la Salle and his Ignorantium
brotherhood, from the advice of the pope,
to whose bull he had alluded, he came
to the evidence, in 1738, of the lieute-
nant of police at Paris; a man who was,
perhaps, much more conversant than
either with the effects of ignorance. That
gentleman stated, that from the period
of the establishment of the ignorantium
schools in Paris, the expense of the po-
lice in the Fauxbourg St. Antoine was
reduced 30,000 francs annually. This
was the evidence, be it remembered, not
of a theoretical, but of a practical man.
About the same time a remarkable cir-
cumstance happened in this country. In


JUNE 28, 1820. [5S
1714, Mandeville published his "Fable of
the Bees," condemning the charity schools
of that day, because he said the chil-
dren learned nothing there but to lisp
"High Church and Ormond;" and in
nine years afterwards the grand jury of
the county of Middlesex thought fit to
present him as a fit object for prosecu-
tion, and he was accordingly prosecuted
for endeavouring to prevent the advance-
ment of education and religious instruc-
tion, for irreligion, for decrying the uni-
versities, and for reprobating the instruc-
tion of youth. Thus, strange as it might
seem, an impious man and an athe-
ist at that time was occupying the ground
since mistakenly filled (though only for
a moment) by the pious and religious,
who in our own day, worked upon by
the false philosophy and evil consequences
of the French revolution, had endeavoured
to discourage the progress of knowledge.
Mandeville charged the educators of his
time with instilling principles of disloy-
alty, and an antagonist of Mandeville's,
in a letter to lord Carteret, replied I
defy you to prove this; but, enter
into any of the schools, and if you at
any time find disloyalty inculcated, let
the schools be pulled down." Now this
was precisely his argument. He had
heard that schools had been established
in Lancashire and Cheshire, inculcating
unconstitutional doctrines, radical doc-
trines; why then his advice was, if there
were such schools, let them be shut up.
He next came to the letter or circular
of the pope, through the cardinal Fon-
tana, to the Irish prelates, in 1819. In
that letter was pointed out the poison,
which was inculcated into the minds of
the people from allowing them to read
unauthorized versions of the holy scrip-
ture. The right reverend father said,
with true philosophy, "it is not enough
to prevent such works; in order to pre-
vent your flock from being badly educat-
ed, you must yourselves educate them
well," This was undoubtedly the lan-
guage which, as a pious man, and as head
of the church to which he belonged, he
ought to use. The pope went on to say,
" in order to avoid the snares of the
tempter" (and no man seemed to have
a better knowledge of the use of schools;
no man saw more fully the necessity of
instructing the ignorant), "I beseech the
holy brotherhood, through the bowels of
Christ, to work day and night in the es-
tablishment of Catholic schools, in order







59] HOUSE OF COMMONS,


to prevent the dissemination of improper visited foreign countries. He would read
doctrines." Now this was exactly his ar- an extract of a letter from the brother of
gument. Let them, in order to prevent that man to Dr. Currie, and it was the
bad impressions, inculcate those which more worthy of attention as the hand that
were sound, and this was only to be clone wrote it had, half an hour before, been
by education. He was happy to have probably engaged in directing the plough.
such high authority with him on this Mr. Gilbert Burns in his letter, said, I
point. The whole of this branch of his can say, from my own experience, that
argument might be summed up in the me- there is no sort of farm-labour inconsist-
morable words of the great lord Bacon- ent with the most refined and pleasurable
"Lucis enim naturam puram," &c.-that state of the mind that I am acquainted
the light of knowledge was in itself pure with arising from a liberal education,
and bright, however it might be perverted thrashing alone excepted." He would
and polluted by wickedness or imperfect here beg leave to observe, that the writer
instruction; and that the channels by did not clothe his ideas in perhaps as fine
which it poured in upon the human spe- or as roundabout a dress as would be used
cies ought to be ever kept open and un- by some other gentlemn ; he stated what
defiled, arose in his mind clearly, but simply. He
He now came to a new topic. It had had, perhaps, been threshing shortly be-
been objected that he (Mr. Brougham) fore, and had therefore felt the irksome-
wished the poorer classes to be taught ness of the employment. He went on to
Greek and Latin and fluxions, and other state, That, indeed, I always considered
knowledge which would draw them from an insupportable drudgery, and I think
the cultivation of the soil, and their va- the ingenious mechanic who invented the
rious humble occupations. He really had thrashing machine ought to have a statue
no such wild project in his contemplation. among the benefactors of his country in
lie agreed with one of the wisest men a corresponding niche with the first intro-
that had ever lived, that to one of the ducer and cultivator of potatoes. I main-
rank to which lie alluded, a knowledge of tain, moreover, that as the sort of dim re-
all the languages o' rti' globe could not, ligious awe is wearing off which used hi-
in point of utility, be put in competition therto to guard the morals of the people
with an acquaintance with a single mecha- in this part of the world, from a great va-
nical art. Milton, the most learned man riety of causes, men will go suddenly into
of a learned age, endowed with many rare an opposite extreme, if they be not so
accomplishments of genius and ofacqui- educated as to enable them to see the se-
sition, in his small Tractate of Educa- paration between the essence of true re-
tion, had expressed himself in the fol- ligion and the gross systems so often con-
lowing forcible and beautiful language :- founded with it." So much for his pea-
And though a linguist should pride him- sant. He came at once to the point; and
self to have all the tongues that Babel lie (Mr. Brougham) wished that many
cleft the world into, yet if he had not other persons whom he knew would do
studied the solid things in them, as well the same. He would now call the atten-
as the words and lexicons, he were no- tion of the House to the result of the in-
thing so much to be esteemed a learned quiries that had been made upon this sub-
man, as any yeoman or tradesman compe- ject. It appeared from those returns that
tently wise in his mother-dialect only."- there were now educated at unendowed
Still however, lie was persuaded that if a schools 490,000 children, and to these
poor man had a little more education, it were to be added about 11,000 for 150
would be no bar to his industrious occu- parishes from which no returns had yet
nations. Without dwelling upon theore- been made. In the endowed schools
tical opinions, lie would quote a practical 165,432 children were educated; making
authority of a remarkable nature, in a a total (exclusive of the 11,000) of
letter from Mr. Gilbert Burns, brother to 655,432. In England it appeared that on
the immortal poet of that name, who the average 1-14th or 1-15th of the whole
though a self-taught man, would pass population was placed in the way of re-
down to posterity with the name of his ceiving education. The Breslaw tables,
country; a man who had by his songs on which the calculations were made in
rendered that country dearer to its na- France, included children between the
tives, as must have been felt by all those ages of 7 and 13 years, and represented
belonging to that country, who had ever one-ninth as the proportion of the popu-


Edlucation fthe Ruor.







61 Education of the Poor.
lation which required education. He had
gone through the laborious task of check-
ing those tables by the digests now before
the House, which digests were made up
from the actual statements of clergymen,
from the personal knowledge of their own
parishes; and the result was, that instead
of one-ninth being the ratio of children
requiring education, as compared with the
whole mass of the population, he found that
it was nearer one-tenth. Now in England
the proportion of those actually receiving
education was only one-fourteenth or one-
fifteenth, so that there appeared tobe a con-
siderable deficiency. Another deduction
oughtalso tobemade for the dame-schools,
where 53,000 were educated, or rather not
educated, for it amounted to no education
atall, since the children were generally sent
too young, and taken away just when they
were competent to learn. He admitted,
notwithstanding, that these dame-shools
were most useful, on account of the regu-
larity and discipline they inculcated. The
average means of mere education, there-
fore, was only in fact one-sixteenth in
England; yet even this scanty means had
only existed since the year 1803, when
what were called the new schools, or
those upon the systems of Dr. Bell, and
Mr. Lancaster, were established. Those
schools were in number 1,520, and they
received about 200,000 children. Before
1803, then only the twenty-first part of
the population was placed in the way of
education, and at that date England might
be justly looked on as the worst-educated
country of Europe. What a different
picture was afforded by Scotland! the edu-
cation there was in the proportion of 1-9th
or between 1-9th and 1-10th. Wales was
even in a worse state than England: at
the present day the proportion was 1-20th,
and before 1803, it was 1-26th.
It might be useful that he should state
the condition in this respect of three
foreign countries, France, Switzerland,
and Holland; and he was happy to be
able to do so, not from books, but from
the assistance and information which had
been generously afforded him by dis-
tinguished foreigners; among them he
might mention the baron de Stael,
the duke de Broglie, M. Cuvier (who
had supplied the information regarding
Holland), and the chevalier Laborde, at
the head of the department particularly
connected with this subject in Paris. The
proportion in France at this day was one-
twenty-eighth, but even this had only


JUNE 28, 1820. [62
been produced by very recent improve-
ments. In 1819, only 1,070,000 chil-
dren of the population received educa-
tion, but that number was greater by
200,000 than in 1817. In 1817 only one-
thirty-fifth part of the population of
France received education. In truth
France was at that period in almost as bad
a state in that respect as Middlesex,
which, though the great metropolitan
country of England, was, beyond all dis-
pute, the worst-educated part of Christen-
dom. No sooner had the defect been
discovered in France, than the inhabi-
tants set about to reform it, and, from
the zeal with which the subject was under-
taken, no less than 7,120 new schools had
been opened, and an addition of 204,000,
or the children of two millions ofthe whole
population, had since 1817 received edu-
cation-an example well worthy of ad-
miration and of imitation. If they went
on in the same way for ten years, there
would not be an uneducated child in
France. Regarding the state of Switzer-
land he had received much valuable intelli-
gence from his well-known friend, Mr.
Dumont, in a letter written in a most
beautiful hand, by his servant, who was
from the Pays-de-Vaud, and had never
received a single lesson but in one of the
parish-schools. From this and other sources
he found that in Switzerland there was
twelve times asmuch education as in Eng-
land, the proportion was about one in
eight, and there was not above one per-
son in sixty who could not read and write.
In 1812, in Holland, according to M.
Cuvier, there were 4,451 schools, educat-
ing 190,000 children, or one-tenth of the
population.
Such were the general averages by
which he thought it fit to preface his plan;
and he would now take another, and not
an uninteresting, view of the subject.
HIe would state, in the first place, what
was the amount of population in England
wholly destitute of the means of education.
He would take 600,000, as before as the
number educated in endowed and un-
endowed schools, deducting the number
placed in dame schools. To these he
would add 50,000 for the children educat-
ed at home by private tuition; also
100,000 for such as were educated at
Sunday schools. The latter received,
indeed, in this way, a very small modicum
of education ; and, above all, they ob-
tained none of the useful habits inculcat-
ed by the discipline of schools under the







63] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
eye of a master, which was more benefi-
cial to the child than that of a parent.
The total therefore of the children re-
ceiving education was 750,000; accord-
ing to which calculation no less than
2,000,000 of the population of England
wasleft in this respect unprovided for;
in other words, every fifth person was
without the means of education ; so that
the condition of Switzerland was twelve
times better than our own. The last view
he should take of this subject was found-
ed upon a comparison of the number of
parishes and ecclesiastical districts which
had, and had not schools. There were
about 12,000 ecclesiastical district
parishes, or chapelries, in England; of
these 3,500 had not the vestige of a
school, endowed, unendowed, or dame;
they had no more means of education
than were to be found in the country of
the Hottentots. Of the remainder, 3,000
had endowed schools, and the rest relied
entirely on unendowed schools-of course
fleeting and casual. In Scotland it was
known that every parish, great or small,
had one or more schools; some of them
endowed, upon which were formed the
bulk of those where the majority of the
population was educated. Were he not
afraid of fatiguing the House, he could
show, as in a map, how education was
spread over the country. The average of
the whole of England being one-fifteenth,
in Middlesex, it was only one-twenty-
fourth, and if the dame schools were de-
ducted, it would be only one-forty-sixth ;
and excluding this county from the calcu-
lation would lower the average of England
to an eighteenth. Thus it was evident
that Middlesex was three times worse
educated than all the rest of England.
Lancashire was next in the scale, where it
was one-twenty-fturth, or very nearly
half as bad again as the rest of England.
In the four northern counties taken to.
gether, the average was one-tenth of
the population; but in Westmorland sing-
ly, he was happy to say, that it amounted
to one-seventh. It was far from his wish
to state any thing disrespectful of other
counties, but it was his duty on this occa-
sion to observe, that the proportion was
extremely different in many districts. In
the six midland counties, Buckingham-
shire, Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire,
Northamptonshire, Hertfordshire, and
Huntingdonshire, where lace-making was
the ordinary occupation, and the great
enemy both to education and morals, the
*


Education o lhe Poor. [64
average was one-twenty-fourth. A great
deduction from the dame schools was to
be made as respected these counties, in
consequence of Lhat occupation. In the
eastern counties, Essex, Norfolk, and
Suffolk, the proportion was one in twenty-
one, and in Somerset and Wilts one in
twenty-four. He had no desire to build
any argument upon the connexion be-
tween education and the amount of pover-
ty and criminality, without reference to all
the circumstances and disturbing forces
which formed such an essential ingredient
in a calculation. Amongst these must be
reckoned a vicinity to sea-port towns, the
comparative density of population, and
manufacturing habits. Making allow-
ance for these obstructions, the result
would still answer as a practical exemplifi-
cation of his theory. The average of the
poor of all England was one-twelfth, ex-
clusively of the northern counties, where
the average was about one-fifteenth. In
Westmoreland and Cumberland, the coun-
ties in which the population was twice as
well educated as in any other part of the
country, the proportion of poor was but
one half of what it was elsewhere. He
held in his hand a table of the number of
commitments, with reference to the popu-
lation of each county, for the last ten
years. That number, estimated for all
England, was in the proportion of one in
1,100, but in the northern counties was
one in 4,200, and in the midland coun-
ties one in 2,100. In Westmoreland the
numbers committed for crimes varied but
little fbr the last twenty years, and this
was matter of little surprise ; they were
not to expect miracles from education-
education enlightened the people-it did
not immediately remove them from crime.
-They must mix with their fellows-
they must wait for the gradual improve-
ment which time brought about but if,
notwithstanding the disturbances of late
years, if the number of committals did not
increase, he thought he might rely on the
fact as affording a proof of the salutary
and permanent effects of education. It
was surprising to find how the proportion
of those who received education without
paying for it varied in different districts.
In the four northern counties the number
of children educated free were 16,300;
those who paid were 37,000. In West-
moreland, out of 2,700, only 48 were
educated free. In the six midland coun-
ties 18,000 paid, 20,000 were free. In
Wilts and Somerset 11,000 paid, 16,000







65] Education of the Poor.
were free. In the three eastern counties
2t,000 paid, 30,000 were free. Now in
Scotland, which was again pre-eminent in
this instance, although all the children
were educated, there was scarcely one
whose parent or friend did not pay some-
thing for it. In Scotland there was hard-
ly such a thing as gratuitous education.
If in drawing up the returns for that
part of the king's dominions, the paper of
two columns had been sent underthe heads
of Paid and Unpaid Schools, the
return to the paid would be nil.-
Even the peasants took care to provide
means for this purpose; and we in this
part of the empire might well envy
Scotland the possession of such a peasan-
try. We might also be assured that there
was no way of getting rid of the poor-
laws, and of their increasing evil, ex-
cept by a restoration of those wholesome
and independent feelings which England
once had, which Scotland still had, but
which she would not long continue to
have, if the poor-laws were extended to
that country.
He might here point the attention of
the House to a digest of the reports of,
the Scotch clergy on this subject, as one
of the most admirable and affecting docu-
ments which had ever been submitted to
their consideration. In that might be
taken a correct view of the character of
the people; in that might be found ma-
nifested, in a thousand ways, the zeal and
earnestness of parents in procuring in-
struction for their children. The chil-
dren of the poorer classes worked half
their time, and their earnings constituted
a fund, not, as in other places that should
be nameless, where the sweat of their
brow was imposed to support the dissipa-
tion, or gratify the impure desires of their
parents ; not to be wasted in drunkenness
and debauchery ; but to be carefully re-
served as the means of obtaining educa-
tion. Scotland was not a land where
many visionaries or speculators were to
be found. Metaphysically as some of its
inhabitants were inclined, they had an
utter contempt for every thing that did
not promote their own real and substan-
tial advantage. It was for this lie praised
them. His praise of the Scotch was, that
they knew and followed what was their
real advantage, and that they did not see
the advantages of vice and ignorance.
Their youth were not brought up in vice
or idleness, but in persevering and indus-
trious habits. The clergymen said, that
VOL. II.


JUNE 28, 1820. [6b
the poor people who could not afford to
keep their children all the year at school,
kept them at work for the summer, and
with the amount of their wages, which
seldom amounted to more than 20 shil-
lings, they sent them to school in tile
winter, at that invaluable period of life
when mind, as the Roman poet said,
" might be fashioned like w\.t clay." In
Scotland thete were parishes fifteen miles
in length, and six in breadth. It was
easier for an adult to go to church than
for a child to go to school in such cases.
But what was the expedient suggested by
their zeal and ingenuity? The school-
master was taken into houses successively,
and was boarded in remuneration for his
trouble in teaching the children. Scot-
land was not remarkable for abundance of
animal food, but the parents gave him
some kind of subsistence, probably better
suited to their means than to his appe-
tite. There was a curious similarity in
this respect between that part of the king-
dom and the south of France. It was
observed, in a report of the French com-
missioners, that happy was the school-
master who lived in the rugged districts
of the Pyrennees; there he was at least
sure of not dying of hunger, for the peo-
ple having no money, boarded him by ro-
tation." Such was exactly the state in
the Highlands, in what he would call the
Pyrenean parts of Scotland. He would
join these poor people in preferring the
humble and pious prayer of their clergy
for the. love of God to grant them more
widely the means of education ; for the
love of that religion which their Divine
Master said was preached for the rich as
well as the poor, he implored parliament
not to be stingy on this branch alone of
their internal administration, and not to
limit to an annuity of 101. the stipend of
the teacher who was to assist in this good
work.-lt was probable that if they did,
some persons would be found to contrast
their ill-starred economy on this point
with their profusion upon other projects.
The money which had been thrown aaway
on the Caledonian canal would have edu-
cated half of England, and the whole of
Scotland.
He had now no further statements to
offer to the House, and would therefore
proceed to lay before them, as liortly as
he could, the principal heads of that plan
which lie felt himself justified in recom-
mending. If this plan had been struck
out in a heat, if it was the offspring of
F








67} HOUSE OF COMMONS,
mere theory, a creation of fancy, or the
adaptation of a system established else-
where to the state of this country, as, mu-
tatis mutandis, an act of William had en-
deavoured to extend the parochial system
of England to Scotland, criticism and op-
position might well be expected. But he
entreated every honourable member to
believe, when any objection presented
itself to his mind, that it had previously
occurred to the committee, had been well
weighed and fully considered, both by
himself and the hon. members whose as-
sistance he had enjoyed. Had it been
otherwise, indeed, the plan could neither
be rational, practicable, nor feasible. He
was sure that the length of time which
had been employed in the considerations
and inquiries of the committee evinced
their sense of the importance and diffi-
culty of the task which they had under-
taken. There was no part of the plan
that was not warranted by the information
which had been laid before the commit-
tee. Queries had been propounded upon
every leading branch of the inquiry-wit-
nesses had been examined on every ma-
terial point, and the benefits of their
united wisdom and experience brought in
aid of the deliberations of the com-
mittee. The plan in question was di-
vided into four branches, and referred
in the first place, as might be sup-
posed, to the foundation of schools. In
the second place, it related to the ap-
pointment and removal of masters; in the
third, to the admission of scholars, and
their mode of tuition ; and in the fourth,
to the improvement of old education en-
dowments. The first thing naturally to be
considered was, how to plant the school;
the second,howto procure proper school-
master; the third, what he was to teach
when procured; and the fourth, how to
relieve the country of part of the expense
necessarily attendant upon the plan, by
making the old endowments in some mea-
sure available. He proposed to rest the
authority of initiating proceedings in four
different classes of persons, and that the
tribunal for determining and adjudicating
on the subject should be the quarter-ses-
sions. The ecclesiastical division of dis-
tricts was that which he had adopted, and
the first class of persons to whom he had
alluded was the grand jury at the Easter
sessions, to proceed either by finding a
bill of indictment, or presentment of their
own. Upon this, he submitted, that the
case ought to be triable in the following


Education of the Poar. [68
sessions. The matter of complaint should
be either that there was no school within
the district, or none in the adjoining dis-
tricts sufficiently near to be available to
the inhabitants of that district, or that
there was only one school where two were
necessary, or three, in the case of very
extensive or populous districts. Beyond
this he did not go; it was right some
limit should be set, and when there were
three schools in a parish a great deal
would have been done. Evidence might
then be heard, and the question deter-
mined at a special or school sessions ; no
certiorari or writ of error being allowed.
The second class of persons entitled to
apply was, the rector, vicar, perpetual
curate, or actual incumbent of each pa-
rish, with a power of uniting two parishes
or chapelries together, and making the
application jointly. In the third place,
his plan would enable any two justices
acting for a division in an ecclesiastical
district to prefer similar complaints; and,
in the fourth and last instance, would
confer a like discretion on any five resi-
dent householders. Notice was to be
given and affixed to the church-door in
such cases, for the period of a month be-
fore the first day of quarter-sessions; two
chapelries or parishes might join in the
application, four householders of each
parish or chapelry concurring; the parish
officers were obliged to defend, at the re-
quest of five householders; an estimate
of the expense of the school-house and
garden was to be furnished; the educa-
tion digest and population abstract were
to be given in evidence, but liable to be
rebutted; costs of the application were
to be allowed; no appeal or certiorari
was to be allowed; the salary of the
schoolmaster should not be less than 20
or more than SOl.-This last point he was
aware might stagger some persons, and
he begged them to believe that he had
not fixed so low a sum without mature
consideration. It might be objected, that
this was a great deal too little; but lie
did not wish for sinccurists, or to take
from them the desire of obtaining day
scholars. He deemed it important that
they should find their own interests im-
mediately concerned in this particular.
It was in fact important, and it was his
great object, that whilst measures were
adopted for bringing education home to
the doors of all, that all should still pay
a little for it. He was desirous of seeing
the instructor live by his art, and obtain







69] Education of the Poor.
some remuneration for his pains, and the
advantages which he communicated, from
each of his pupils. He, however, allowed
a power of increasing the salary with the
concurrence of two-thirds of the house-
holders paying school-rate; the absent
proprietors voting by agents. He could
anticipate that there might be cases in
large parishes, such as those of Liverpool
or Manchester, where it might be an ob-
ject of great public importance to secure
a schoolmaster of superior talents at a
higher salary than 20 or 01.-such men
as Joseph Lancaster, had he continued
industrious in his vocation; and in men-
tioning him, although he lamented his
errors, he could not but express his sense
of the great service which he had rendered
to society. With this view he proposed,
in the first instance, that the order of ses-
sions for the master's salary should be a
warrant to the parish-officers to levy it
half-yearly; and 2ndly, that the inhabi-
tant householders might, at a meeting
with one month's notice, and consent of
the resident parson, increase the salary
when the office was vacant, provided that
two-thirds of such inhabitants concurred.
He now came to the delicate question
of how the expense was to be defrayed ;
and he was quite sure that no country
gentleman would complain of the small
additional burthen of a few shillings, or
even of a pound a-year, which would be
imposed upon him as his quota for the
maintenance of a schoolmaster ; for in a
very few years he or his son would expe-
rience a diminution of the parish rates
brought about by these very means. The
expense of building the school, however,
ought not, in his opinion, to fall upon the
country gentlemen, but upon that part of
the community-those engaged in manu-
factures-who, whilst they increased the
objects of the poor-rates, contributed
but little towards them. He should pro-
pose then-but here he almost trembled
whilst he spoke, for he saw the right hon.
the chancellor of the exchequer, was be-
coming uneasy-the lion of the Treasury
was roused-but he should propose that
the money be advanced, in the first place
by the treasurer of the county, provided
that it did not in any case exceed 2001.
This sum might, however, be deemed too
large or too small for the purpose, and he
was perfectly ready to acquiesce in some
other estimate. This sum, whatever it
was, he proposed should be replaced out
of the consolidated fund in the hands of


JUNE 28, 1820. [70
the receiver-general of the land-tax, and
that the commissioners of the treasury
should direct it to be paid on seeing the
order of sessions. The digest was, in-
deed, filled with complaints of the evils
that arose from having schools in very
large houses, by which the original object
was destroyed. He was for making them
nothing but school-houses, in the strictest
sense of the word-buildings, where the
master and his wife, with a guardian to
assist him, might reside, but in which no
boarders should be admitted. He looked
upon the schoolmaster to be employed in
an honourable and useful capacity-so
honourable, that none was more highly to
be esteemed, if the individual were faith-
ful in the discharge of his duty-so use-
ful, that no man, he believed, effected
more good in his generation than a good
parish schoolmaster. That class would
not, however, be offended when he ob-
served, that they moved in an inferior sta-
tion of life-and, their circumstances be-
ing contracted, to eke them out they were
glad to practise a little land-surveying, or
a little conveyancing. The more convey-
ancing they undertook, the better it was
for the profession to which he belonged;
for their labours in that line generally
brought plenty of grist to the mill in West-
minster-hall. Sometimes they only occu-
pied themselves in copying conveyances,
which was a more harmless pursuit, and
they were generally assisted by their pu-
pils in that innocent amusement. In aid-
ing in the correspondence of the fair, there
was often employment for the epistolary
taste of the village schoolmaster. Every
man who read the Digest, must see the
necessity of watching, with the greatest
vigilance, the mode in which the building
of these schools was contracted for, and
carried on. With this view, it was in-
tended that no parish officer should be
employed in building a school; and where
land for the purpose was purchased from
persons in that situation, that the county
surveyor should be called in to inspect it,
and to report on its value. The public
should be answerable for the sum expend-
ed in building the school, but the salary
of the schoolmaster was to be defrayed by
the county. The outfit was placed to
the public account, and the salary was
made a local matter for the best possible
reasons. In the first place, individuals
possessing local information could best
decide on the amount of salary that should
be given; secondly, rendering the pay-







71] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
ment a local charge was useful, inasmuch
as it established a certain degree of con-
trol over the schoolmaster's conduct: and
thirdly, that the charge ought to fall only
on those parishes or districts that had not
already voluntarily provided the means of
education. It, for instance, it should
happen, that a parish was without any
school (as that in which he resided
in the country actually was, though
it also happened that in that parish
there were no children, at least none
who were not educated at home), if tile
present inhabitants paid no master, and
their ancestors had not had the grace to
found one, it would be hard that tle inha-
bitants of the next parish, who had a
school, should be obliged to pay to make
up for their neighbours' neglect. But the
building might reasonably be paid out of
the general fund, as well for the reasons
which he had before stated, as because it
might form an impediment to the estab-
lishment of the schools, because the
householders, to whom the power was left
of making an application for a new school,
might be deterred from doing so by the
apprehension of being called on at once
for a considerable sum. It would be found
that all the four classes of persons alluded
to in the digest were landholders; and
though they would not be willing to pay
the 301. or 401. towards the outfit, they
would have no objection to lay down the
20s. or 30s. for salary. He stated these
points, as drawn from the Digest, to show
that they were all facts deduced from ex-
perience, and not depending on theory.
Parish-officers, it would be provided, might
summon a jury to assess the value of any
land or house that might be taken, whose
verdict should be final. It was intended
that the warrant for levying the master's
salary should be issued half-yearly. An-
other provision was, that the inhabitant
householders might, at a meeting regu-
larly convened, after one month's notice,
and the consent of the resident clergy-
man, increase the salary of schoolmasters,
when the office became vacant, by a sum
not exceeding 201., provided that not less
than two-thirds of such meeting con-
curred. Proprietors of above 1001. a-year
might vote by their agents at such meet-
ing, being duly authorized in writing.
They had now the school planted and
endowed, and the next step was to put in
the schoolmaster, which was one of the
most important parts of the whole system.
Thle appointment and the removal of the


Education of the Poor. [72
master were distinctly provided for; and
those provisions he would state to the
House, rather than send gentlemen to ex-
amine a bill, which was very rarely read
by those who were directed to it. In the
first place, the master's qualification must
appear from the certificate of the clergy-
man, and of three householders of the pa-
rish in which he had resided for twelve
months ; or from the clergymen and two
householders of two parishes. He should
not be less than 24 years of age, nor more
than 40. The youth t' some masters,
and tie advanced age of others, had oc-
casioned great evils. He believed that
boys of 15 and men of 70 had knocked
up more schools than any other cause
whatever. He must be a member of the
established church, and have taken the
sacrament, in testimony of that fact, one
month previous to the election. It was
provided tlat parish clerks should be eli-
gible to the office. Without that specific
statement they would have been eligible;
but it was thought right to mention parish
clerks particularly, as it would be a hint
that that body were thebest calculated to fill
the office of schoolmasters. That ancient
but now degraded body, the parish clerks,
in the older and better times of the
church, were viewed in the light of minor
spiritual assistants. Even now, in Ca-
tholic countries, they were so considered.
They were one of the five minor orders of
the Catholic church, amongst whom were
the ostuarii, the bell-ringers, &c. Our
parish-clerk, however, filled a more re-
spectable situation; but the office of late
years had fallen so much into decay, that
some of those who were appointed to it
pursued the very lowest occupations. He
recollected one of that fraternity, who, to
procure a livelihood, went about singing,
or rather disturbing the slumbers of the
neighbourhood, if not depressing the spi-
rits of those who did not sleep. In truth,
he could not say that his voice was remark-
able for its sweetness, or the ditties which
he poured forth remarkable for their ele-
gance. Having refreshed the parishion-
ers in this manner, the worthy man regu-
larly proceeded to refresh himself-and,
for the most part, it was necessary to
carry him home. These were his nightly
amusements-his occupation during the
day was mole-catching. On Sunday lie
appeared in church, reading-not indeed
with a distinct voice, but as audibly as he
could, and as fast as his abilities enabled
him to read-that part of the divine ser-







73] Education of the Poor.
vice which was allotted to him. He (Mr.
Brougham) was not very squeamish about
these things; but he thought when he wit-
nessed this exhibition (and it was a
long time ago), that it was a very un-
dignified mode of performing a religious
service. He thought it would be a great
advantage, if, by the proposed alteration,
a better class of men were placed in the
situation of parish clerk, which must be
the case if they hoped to combine with
that duty the duty of parish schoolmaster.
In Scotland, the sessions-clerk, who was
connected with the church, was very fre-
quently the school-master.
He now came to the mode by which
the schoolmaster was to be elected. 1st,
a meeting was to be called, by notice,
posted on the church-door a month be-
fore the election of inhabitant house-
keepers, rated to the school rate. They
were to assemble in the church between
12 and 3 o'clock. 2nd, Proprietors of
above 1001. a year might vote by their
agents, authorized in writing for that pur-
pose. Srd, The senior parish-officer to
preside, and have a casting vote, in
case of equal numbers. And here he
requested the House to observe how lhe
had united and knitted the system with
the Protestant establishment. The senior
parish officer was to read the certificates,
and to declare by letter, to the resident
parson, on whom the choice of the meet-
ing had fallen. He, doubtless, would here
have the church with him, but he feared
that the sectaries would be against him.
It did, however, appear to him, that the
system of public education should be
closely connected with the church of
England, as established by law. He
stated this, after the most mature con-
sideration; and he was anxious to make
the statement, because on a former occa-
sion he did not go quite so far as he now
did. He had then abstained from going
so far, because he dreaded the opposition
of the sectaries. Their argument was,
You are making this a new system of
tithe. You are placing a second parson
in each parish, whom we must pay, though
we cannot conscientiously attend to his in-
struction." He had bowed to this position ;
because there was certainly some justice
in it; but, when he came to compare it
with the inestimable advantages of a sys-
tem that would secure the services of such
a body of men as the established clergy
-when he looked to the infinite benefit
that would arise from having the constant,


JUNE 28, 1820. [74
the daily superintendence of such a cha-
racter as a well-educated and pious Eng-
lish churchman-when he became sensi-
ble, as he soon did, how much the dur-
ability of the system would he increased
by giving it that solidity, that deep root,
that wide basis which no new system
could possess or acquire without being
grafted on an old stock, so as to infuse
through the feeble and fickle graft all the
strength that was imbibed, and only could
be imbibed, through a long course of ages,
in which that stock had flourished-he
felt the full force of the argument, as op-
posed to that advanced by the sectaries;
and if no other argument could have been
adduced, that which he had stated was
sufficient for him. But there were two
other satisfactory reasons which he would
state to the House, for connecting the
system intimately with the church esta-
blishment. In the first place, a religious
education was most essential to the wel-
fare of every individual. To the rich it
was all but every thing-to the poor, it
might be said, without a figure, to be
every thing. It was to them that the
Christian religion was especially preached
-it was their special patrimony ; and if
the legislature did not secure for them a
religious education, they did not, in his
opinion, half execute their duty to their
fellow creatures. What would give them
the chance that this system of education
would be a religious one, was placing it
under the control of those who taught
the doctrines of the church. Another
consideration was, that the church had a
direct interest in promoting a religious
education. The clergy were the teachers
of the poor-not only teachers of religion,
but, in the eye of the law, they were
teachers generally. It was true they could
not be compelled to teach, but they did
teach as far as their means allowed them.
Their labours in the other parts of the
vineyard were, however, too extensive to
admit of their cultivating this portion of
it to any considerable degree ; and there-
fore it was necessary that they should
have assistants to act under them. What
then could be more natural than that they
should have a control over those who
were selected to assist them? He might
almost say, that a parson was a clerical
schoolmaster, and a schoolmaster was a
lay-parson. This was his view of the
subject, and the plan he now detailed to
the House was founded on that view.
There was one other consideration







75J HOUSE OF COMMONS,
which induced him to adopt the principle
he had stated. Let the House look to the
alacrity, the zeal, the warm-heartedness,
which the established clergy manifested
for the education of the poor. They did
not wait till these numerous statements, fill-
ing 2 large volumes, were placed in a more
palatable and more digestible shape be-
fore the House; but they at once de-
clared their anxiety for the dissemination
of education amongst the poor. The
names of those individuals were contained
in the Digest, certainly against their will;
for some of them had not scrupled to
blame the conduct of their neighbours.
But they overcame any reluctance they
might have felt on that head, anxious only
for the better education of the poor; and
their letters on the subject were now be.
fore parliament. In those letters they
declared that blessings would be poured
down on parliament if they carried into
effect a religious system of education,
which they expressly declared to be the
most effectual barrier against the prevail-
ing vices of the time. These were the
persons whom Providence had appointed
to assist in this great work of educating
the poor. Should they then, to overcome
the scruples of a few individuals (he said
a few, for many of the Dissenters, he was
happy to say, supported the opinions of
those who approved of the system)-
should they, on account of the scruples
of a few, do away all chance of success
in this great undertaking, and forego the
benefits of this excellent measure, by re-
jecting such assistance-by turning their
backs on the clergy of England, whom
Providence had raised up to give strength
and stability to the plan ? He would say,
No. And he had not the least doubt
when the Dissenters themselves under-
stood the nature of the measure, that
their repugnance to it would be removed.
But to proceed with the point respect-
ing the election of the schoolmaster. The
4th provision under this head was, that
the parson might, upon the examination
of the successful candidate, reject him,
and direct the parish officers to issue no-
tices for a new election. The parson had
here a veto-not a nominal, but a real and
effectual veto. This would in a great
measure prevent any improper person
from offering himself at the period of the
election. If such a power did not exist,
the appointment might become a mere
matter of canvas, and persons not suited
to the situation might have a majority.


Education oflthe Poor. [76
As, in ordination for the church, the
bishop had a right to report a candidate
for orders minus efcientis literature ; so,
in this case, he would allow the parson to
pronounce on the qualifications of the
candidate for the situation of master. The
next head was that of visitation. The
first regulation was, that the bishop of
the diocese from time to time, as he might
think fit, might visit the school by him-
self; secondly, by the archdeacon ;
thirdly, by the dean, within the limits of
the deanery; and, fourthly, by the chan-
cellor. The visitor might, in the fifth
place, remove the master, who might ap-
peal from the subordinate visitor to the
ordinary, and from the ordinary to the
metropolitan; all of whom were to act
not as courts, but to decide privately on
the appeal. This latter regulation might
be objected to. He had at first enter-
tained doubts of its propriety, but, by the
ancient law, the visitor was privileged to
decide privately; and he felt that it would
be extremely dangerous to introduce an
innovation, without absolute necessity.
He had therefore adhered, in this regula-
tion, to the spirit of the ancient law.
6thly, The visitor (subject to the appeal
before mentioned) might direct the master
to be superannuated, with a pension not
exceeding two-thirds of his salary, after a
service of 15 years continuance. As no
individual would be eligible to the situa-
tion after the age of 40, it was evident by
this regulation that he need not remain in
the situation after he had become too old
to perform its duties. 7thly, The dio-
cesan to make yearly returns of the names
of masters, the number of children under
their care, their salaries and average
emoluments, with any remarks that might
occur to him; power being granted to
him to apply to the parsons for such in-
formation as they might possess. This
provision was similar to that contained in
the Clergy Residence acts (43 Geo. 3rd,
cap. 84 and 57 Geo. 3rd, cap. 99). The
diocesan, under these acts, returned an-
nually the number of non-resident clergy,
and the object he (Mr. Brougham) had
in view would be obtained by the intro-
duction of an additional column to the
return, in which might be inserted the
state of the schools, &c. in the diocese.
8thly, The parson to be allowed at all
times to enter the school and to examine
the children. The Dissenter might say,
that he would be obliged to support this
establishment, though he never could be







771 Education of the Poor.
prevailed on to send his child there. He,
however, as the House would presently
see, had taken care, in the formation of
this measure, that none but very squeam-
ish Dissenters indeed would refuse to send
their children to these schools.
The school was now planted, endowed,
and the master appointed; and they con-
sequently came to the admission of the
children. The first regulation, on this
point, was, that the parson, with the
parish-officers, as assessors, were, on the
appointment of each new master, to fix
the rate of quarter-pence-which was to
be not less than 2d. nor more than 4d.
per week. 2ndly, This rate to be, in all
cases, 2s. per quarter, or 2d. per week,
for the children of persons receiving
parish relief. If their parents could pay
this small sum, so much the better. If
they could not, he was sure the parish-
officers would defray the expense; since
he believed most of them felt that educa-
tion was the surest means to check the
growth of pauperism. Between those
who were thus paid for, and those whose
parents defrayed the charge, he would
allow no distinction to be drawn. If there
were a line chalked across the school-
room, indicating that on one side of it
there were gentlemen who paid, and, on
the other, paupers who did not pay, it
would be attended with the worst moral
effects. He never would suffer the spirits
of poor children to be beat down and
broken by such a distinction. He would
always, on the contrary, store their minds,
as much as possible, with the seeds of in-
dependence. 3rdly, The parson, with
the parish-officers, as assessors, might
direct the master to admit certain chil-
dren gratis; but no other distinction
whatever to be observed respecting such
children, or pauper children. 4thly,
Parents to be allowed to agree with the
master for extra hours, or extra tuition, as
they might think proper.
The next head, under this branch of
the subject, was the mode of education to
be adopted. With reference to this part
of the plan, it would be proposed, 1st,
That the parson, at each new appointment
of master, should fix the course of teach-
ing according to the state of the parish.
He should also notify the times of vaca-
tion, not exceeding twice a year, either a
fortnight at each period, or a month at
once. The regulation on this point to be
fixed in some conspicuous part of the
school-room. 2ndly, The Scriptures


JUNE 28, 1820. [7L
alone to be taught, the parson fixing, if
he pleased, the passages to be rehearsed
from time to time. Srdly, No other reli-
gious book to be taught, nor any book,
without the consent of the parson-nor
any form of worship to be allowed in the
school, except the Lord's Prayer and
other passages from the Scriptures. With
respect to this provision, he hoped he
should not have the church against him
here, as he had the Dissenters against him
on other points. But he conceived the
church had no right to complain when
the Lord's Prayer and the Ten Com-
mandments, which were so intimately
connected with the Christian religion ge-
nerally, and which contained doctrines
that were not the subject of dispute, were
to be repeated in the school. It was not
necessary that the schoolmaster should
teach any particular religion. It would
be much better to leave the children to
their Bible alone. It was, in many parts,
a much better school-book than any
other. Now, so long as nothing but the
Bible was taught, it appeared to him that
no sectary could refuse to send his chil-
dren to one of these schools. He did not
wish to exclude them-he would much
rather invite their attendance, 4thly, The
children to attend church once every Sun-
day, either with their parents or with the
master. Dissenters to take their children to
their own churches or chapels. To take the
children to church once in the day he con-
ceived to be sufficient. When they became
adults, they might go twice on Sunday,-
the oftener the better; but when children
spent four hours at church, they naturally
became tired of it. In his opinion, it was
not a good plan to keep children more
than an hour and a half at religious wor-
ship, on the day set apart for it. It was
not the proper way to make them love
and respect it. Let them go to church
in the morning, and let their evening be
devoted to that innocent play which was
most congenial to their age. With res-
pect to the children of Dissenters going
to their own churches or chapels, it was
nothing more than was just and proper.
Of course, no conscientious Dissenter
would allow his child to go to a Pro.
testant church, any more than a Protest-
ant would suffer his children to attend
the service of the church of Rome. He
had heard it said Compel all children,
Dissenters and others, to go to church,"
and those who gave this advice founded
their opinion on a passage in the report







79] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
of a committee, before which the rev. Mr.
Johnson was examined. That eminent
man, who came from that part of the
country which was proverbially well edu-
cated, was diffusing in this country the
benefits which, at home, he saw derived
from the extension of knowledge. His
school, in Baldwin's-gardens, the central
metropolitan school, was the finest per-
haps in the world. Mr. Johnson stated,
that many Dissenters sent their children
to his school. But what was this but to
say that they were not Dissenters ? They
were what was termed Anythingarians,"
or Nothingarians," individuals who
had no over-ruling predilection for any
particular creed; and consequently wholly
different from real Dissenters. 'He would
not call on individuals of this latter class
to send their children to church. He
would not gain converts to the church by
duress. He would as little attempt to
starve an individual into a churchman by
want of mental, as he would by want of
bodily food. 5thly, That there should be
a school-meeting every Sunday evening,
for teaching the church catechism, and
other portions of the Liturgy, such as the
parson might think fit to direct, and all
children to attend except those of such
Dissenters as might object. Such a meet-
ing as this would be attended by many
children of that species of Dissenters whom
Mr. Johnson had described as allowing
their children to attend his school at
Baldwin's-gardens. Gthly, Reading, writ-
ing and arithmetic to be taught in all the
schools, and to all the children of fit age.
He had now gone through the three
branches of the subject-planting and en-
dowing the school, electing, superintend-
ing, and removing the master, and admitting
and teaching the children. Those three
heads exhausted this part of the subject.
He now came to that which was an ap-
pendix to the bill, but was of the utmost
importance-namely, to make the exist-
ing endowments more available to the
purposes of educating the poor than they
actually were. He hoped that nothing
contained in this part of the bill would be
prejudicial to it, and that the House would
not reject the measure till they saw some-
thing better. All that he had laid down
in the 4th branch, it was true, was con-
fined to schools; but there was not one
point of it that was not applicable to every
charity whatsoever. And if the sugges-
tions here contained were extended to
charities generally, he should have re-


Education lofthe Poor. [80
Seemed the pledge he had given to the
House three years ago, when he stated
that he would devise a plan to remedy the
errors in the existing system. The sub-
ject of what he had termed the appendix
to the bill consisted of several branches:
-1st. Supplying defects in trusts. Ena-
bling trustees to improve the administra-
tion of the funds. 3rd. Enabling trustees
to improve the disposal and application of
funds. 4th, Proceeding for cases of fai-
lure, total or partial, in the object of the
charity. And 5th, the necessary checks
to operate on the whole of the four pre-
ceding branches. What he was about to
state was founded on the Education Digest,
and the report of the commissioners on
charitable foundations; and here he took
the opportunity of amply acknowledging
the beneficial labours of those who had
collected such materials. He thought it
right to state this, because he did not
augur so well of them when they com-
menced their functions. He perhaps was
not wrong in exercising a fair jealousy on
that occasion, since it seemed to be bene-
ficial to have the eyes of a vigilant public
narrowly directed to watch their proceed-
ings, not with respect to their integrity,
but their activity. He would not use the
word retractation," which according to
the hon. member for Galway no gentleman
could use. but he made this concession,
which was all an honourable man could
be called on to make. With respect to
the latter branches of the bill, for supply-
ing the defects of trusts, it was proposed,
first, that where the number of trustees
was reduced below the quorum, the re-
mainder should be allowed to fill up the
vacancy. The second provision for sup-
plying defects in trust was, that, where all
the trustees were gone,the founder's heir it
law should name trustees. The third was
that where no heir at law was to be found
the visitor should name trustees. The
fourth, where there was neither visitor
nor heir at law, that the legal estate, if
above 51. a year, should be vested in the
clerk of the peace, to administer it under
the order of the quarter sessions. And
the last provision under this head was,
that where there were no trustees, heir at
law, or visitor, and the estate was below
51. a year, it should be vested in any three
of the charity commissioners.
The next general head was the mode of
enabling trustees to improve the adminis-
tration of their funds. This was proposed
to be done-]st, by giving tie:n powers







81J Education ofthe Poor.
to sell, borrow, or exchange, or by bor-
rowing for the purposes of repairing, or
improving their revenue by new invest-
ments, of paying their debts, &c.,-2nd, by
making all papers for conveyances or re-
ceipts free from stamps; and here again
his bill came into contact with the right
hon. the chancellor of the exchequer'spro-
vince ;-3rd, by enabling the receiver of
the county to hold the money arising from
sales, &c., until invested ; and, 4th, by a
declaratory clause, that no trustee should
be a party beneficially interested in the
purchases, sales, exchanges or loans al-
ready mentioned. It might be thought
extraordinary that such a clause should
be necessary. It was not occasioned by
any opinions of the lord chancellor or of
lord Kenyon. But ignoramuses who had
never seen a law-book had pretended to
quote the authority of the greatest lawyer
that was ever in this country-he meant
lord chancellor Eldon, for an absurd-
ity of this kind, and therefore he had in-
troduced this declaratory clause.
The next general head, in this branch
of the subject, was that for enabling trus-
tees to improve the application or dispo-
sal of their revenue. Under this head he
should propose two declaratory enact-
ments to secure the intentions of founders,
and two enacting clauses for altering the
laws of the foundation in order to effect
their obvious object. The first declara-
tory enactment was, to allow trustees in
all cases to contract with the master of
a grammar school to teach reading, writ-
ing and arithmetic, by himself, or assist-
ant, on the same terms as in the ordinary
schools. With existing masters it would
be voluntary, so that vested interests
were not to be touched. But on all mas-
ters hereafter appointed it was to be
binding. But the dignity of the master
would be saved by allowing him to teach
inferior branches by an assistant, and the
expressed object of the foundation would
be effected by the master teaching the
same branches that were now taught in
grammar schools. The second declara-
tory enactment was, to enable trustees to
make the number of children, now limited
and not confined to grammar, unlimited,
and to limit or prohibit the taking of
boarders. Here it appeared strikingly
true, as stated by lord Kenyon, in the 6th
volume of the Term Reports, how shame-
fully the intentions of founders were per-
verted. In many instances the master
VOL. II.


JUNE 28, 1820. [82
did nothing but receive the salary, so far
as the foundation was concerned, while he
kept 50 boarders at 1001. each. The sa-
laiy in many instances was no more than
501.; but even if it were 1001., the school-
master would willingly giveit to the poor if
they pleased, his wish being only to have
the situation of master of the endowed
school and the house. In some places
there were but 20/. for a library given to
the master, but then the sum was unli-
mited for repairs. In one instance, where
only 101. were paid for rent, 401/. were
paid for repairs and taxes. The object
was, to drive away as much as possible the
poor from the benefit intended for them.
The master was quite ready to teach
them, but he was bound only to teach
Latin and Greek, and nothing else. My
school," lie would say, is open, but then
I can teach you only Latin, Greek, and,
if you please Hebrew." The children of
paupers and beadsmen might thus be
taught Hebrew roots, and the paulo post
fiturum in Greek, but they could not be
taught reading, writing, or arithmetic.
The schoolmaster gained all the benefit.
Let him have the benefit of boarders, and
gain 5,0001. a year elsewhere, but let him
not occupy the situation of another, who
should be bound to teach English ; or let
him retain the name and the place, but
let his ostiarius, or usher, teach the infe-
rior branches, while he taught Latin,
Greek, and Hebrew. In many cases those
grammar-schools were expressly founded
for paupers. But paupers were said to
be persons in easy circumstances. He
would not enter into any discussion res-
pecting the universities, that multum
vexata question. But when the poor were
mentioned every man at once saw that
men of easy fortunes weremeant. Itwas,
indeed, less obvious, that poorest meant
the same class of persons; but when it
was recollected that poor meant affluent,
it might be inferred that poorest meant
the most affluent. Possibly those who
were poor at the time some of the estab-
lishments were founded, might, as things
stood at present, be regarded as persons in
easy circumstances. But the case was not
left in any state of doubt by the will of
several of these benevolent founders. For
instance, in the establishment at Lewisham.
the founder distinctly prescribed the edu-
cation of the poorest. children, and on
other foundations the provision was speci-
fically for the children of the poor in
G







S] HOUSE OF COMMIONS, Ediualion of the Poor. [84
alms-houses, while in others the provision they actually did, and what they really
was for the children of persons in low es- could do by the improvements proposed.
tate involved in distress, or hardly having Here again he was obliged to have re-
the means of common sustenta;ion. In course for illustrations to the north. In
others, too, it was directed, that the chil- Cumberland there were 8 schools, of 500
dren of parish paupers should be educated. boys each, at an annual expense of 2921.
It would be allowed, that these at least i In 16 other counties there were 101 chil-
were not the terms best calculated for dren educated at an expense of 3,1231.;
conjuring up to our idea the affluent, and the average in the first case being 11 shil-
those abounding in every luxury, clothed lings and sixpence for each child, and, in
in purple, and cloth of gold. In the times the others, 301. 19s.for each. Thus 5,246
when those endowments had been made children could be taught in these schools,
the poor were taught Latin : but not in on the Cumberland average. It wasprac-
the sense now attached to that part of ticable, upon a proper plan, to educate
education; they were taught Latin for 35,000 children, in 100 schools, at an ex-
the church service. This was well known pense of 2,5001. a year. Economy was
to have been necessary in Catholic times, with him but a secondary consideration in
for the priests were taken from the lowest the proposed bill; but if they regulated
orders of the people. It was true there well the funds already provided, they
were then barons, fortified three deep in would introduce much economy into the
castles; whose daughters were almost system of education. His principal ob-
royal, for often they were married to ject was to regulate these schools, and
sovereigns; who while they sent their connect them with the parish schools.-
eldest sons to the army, designed their This he would do without degrading the
youngest sons for the church. The avow- head master from the rank of a gentle-
ed reason was, that they might pray for man, because he would have the inferior
the sins of their father who had just re- usher to teach the lower classes in the
turned from, and their brethren who had school. This would have a most desir-
just gone to the wars; but another consi- able effect, inasmuch as it would open the
deration was, that they could generally dour of preferment to the parish school-
obtain a commendam of 10,0001. a year. master, and raise that class of men above
Thus was one branch of the church sup- their present condition, by raising their
plied. But the vast majority of those i emulation, and instigating them to ac-
who belonged to the clergy in those days quiring that knowledge which would fit
were the sons of the poor ; he meant the them for higher situations. It would be
monks of all orders; and hence the ne- an advantage analogous to that which ex-
cessity of having the children of the poor isted in the church. Many persons ob-
instructed in the Latin language in en- jected that in the church one individual
dowed schools. Had the pious founders should have 20,0001. year, while another
of those schools foreseen the light of the laboured for 501. a year; but the good
reformation which was afterwards to dawn must be weighed with the bad, and this
upon the world, they would indeed have good would be found in the disparity of
hated it, because they were ignorant of income, that, by how much 20,0001. was
its advantages; but, had they foreseen superior to 501., was the character im-
and understood the value of that greatest proved and the class raised of the persons
revolution which ever blessed mankind, who had only 501. but who had a prospect
they would not have confined their en- of obtaining 20,0001. Mr. Burke had
dowments to the teaching of Latin; but said of this variety of orders in the church,
would have required the English to be -he begged pardon for referring to a
taught as the language in which religion writer whose very words he could not recol-
could be taught. To his mind it was lect, but from whose words no variation
conclusive that they would not have neg- couldbemadewithout loss to the forceand
elected the language in which church ser- illustration ofhismeaning,-butMr. Burke
vice was to be performed twice every had said, that the church ought to rear her
week. mitred front in courts and palaces; and
Let it not be said that grammar-schools this, he said, was necessary, not for the
would thus be degraded into parish sake of the mitred heads, but for thesake
schools; he held in his hand a list of 200 of the people; the poorest of whom were
endowments, with calculations of what interested in the character and talent of








the clergy of all orders. For the same found, the funds should be applied iu aid
reason lie was for establishing that princi- of the parish school. In both these cases,
pie with respect to schools. No means the founder's name was to be placed con-
could be so effectual in raising the cha- spicuously on the outside and on the in-
racter of parish schoolmasters as to make side of the school-house. If all parties
it common property between a parish agreed that an endowment-school should
school and a grammar school. This was be put on the same footing with the pa-
the kind of reform which Mr. Burke had rish-school, no objection could be made
recommended as the most useful and the to that arrangement; and the master
wisest; as tending at once to preserve might be rejected in such a case who was
and to improve; so lie (Mr. Brougham) not approved by the parson. The last
was for rejecting only what was bad in the head of all was that where there was a
present system, and for improving what failure of the objects of the trust. This
was good; and thus to obtain, with the failure was in many cases total; in others
life and vigour of a new institution, the it was partial. There were now 4,5001. a
sanctity and veneration of the old.- year belonging to the Tunbridge school,
Among the provisions of his bill he meant and a decree had been made to that effect,
to propose, that where any charitable es- but 5001. a year was twice as much as was
tablishment, originally designed for board- wanted for that school. The superfluous
ing, lodging and clothing, as well as for 4,0001. in this case, would, according to
educating poor children, was found defi- his plan, be sufficient to provide for the
cient in funds, those establishmentsshould, support of 200 schools, which would be
if necessary, be confined to education quite enough to educate the poor children
alone. For it was no part of his views to of the whole county of Kent. In order
establish hospitals for the children of pau- to remedy all such failures of the objects,
pers, by making a provision to board, he proposed to give power to trustees to
lodge, and clothe them; such establish- appeal to the commissioners of charitable
ments indeed were, in his judgment, but abuses.
to much calculated to remove every salu- He had now gone through the plan he
tary check to an over-abundant popula- proposed, and had, he feared, fatigued
tion, and therefore ought to be depre- the attention of the House. Its merits
cated. There was no worse charity than must rest on itself. But it was necessary
that for clothing and boarding. It was a for him to speak at some length in order
premium for the neglect of prudence and to explain his views, and he hoped the
frugality. The town of Bedford was an House would think that he had redeemed
instance: for 30,0001. a-year were so em- the pledge which he had given two years
played there, and yet Bedford was over- ago. Before he concluded, lie was anxi-
whelmed with paupers. It was infinitely ous to do justice to those meritorious in-
better to let children be fed and clothed dividuals who had assisted him in this
by their parents. Hospitals for children task. He had never known individuals
were but nurseries for population, and con- who had been so diligent in a labour new
tribute more than any other means to:de- to them, and therefore the more difficult,
range the regularcourseof population, and and so skilful as they had proved them-
t. counteracttheprinciples of the soundest serves. If this inquiry should be extend-
p1litical science, especially in the encou- ed to Ireland, if statistical researches
lagement which they afforded for impro- were generally pursued,-a pursuit so ho-
vident or careless marriages. He wished nourable and so useful, so honourable as
to promote instruction by every possible a matter of science, so calculated to dis-
means, but by no means to countenance tinguish us among the nations of Europe,
such injurious establishments. The next and so useful in promoting our morality
provisionin this department was for enab- and security; if other statistical inquiries
ling trustees to treat with the ministers should be instituted, those who had assist-
and parish-officers, or two justices of the ed him on this occasion would be better
peace, for having the children permanent- qualified for it than any others, and than
ly taught in the parish school, where the they as well as he had been for this in-
founder had designed that they should be quiry. He had been able to apply only
taught in other schools, but that design the summer and part of his vacation to
had been frustrated by the inadequacy of the task ; they had applied the whole year.
the funds. Another part of this provision He was precluded from mentioning their
was, that where no endowed school was names, but he should not have done jus-


JuNB 28, 1620. [S6


Education of the Poor.







87] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Education of the Poor. [SS
tice if he had not mentioned their merits. sideration. When he was in Switzerland,
The mere progress of education was not talking of the Bell and Lancaster system,
all he expected as the result, if this plan his friend, M. Fellcnberg, had said to
were cautiously and steadily acted upon. him, "it teaches too last-you make mere
He anticipated that dame-schools would machines of your scholars." He had not
get into better hands, and be better con- been able to answer that objection. The
ducted. One school of that most inter- school in Westminster was intended for
testing class was but a short walk from the that purpose. It brought the mind of the
spot on which he then stood; and he had child into sufficient discipline by the age
already called the attention of the House of six years, to give it all the advantage
to it. If a child was neglected till six of the Lancasterian system afterwards.-
years of age, no subsequent education There were one hundred of the children
could recover it. If' to that age it was in the school at Westminster who did lit-
brought up in dissipation and ignorance- tie more than attend the school, and even
in all the baseness of brutal habits, and by this much good was done. Their mo-
in that vacancy of mind which such ha- others were able to go out to such work as
bits created-it was in vain to attempt to they happened to be engaged in, and
reclaim it by teaching it reading and writ- while they thus gained 3s. or 4s. a week,
ing. They might teach what they chose did not grudge paying a single penny of
afterwards; but if they had not prevented it for tle education of their children. He
the formation of bad habits, they would be exceedingly glad of contribu-
taught in vain. But if dame-schools tions from any gentleman who had heard
were better regulated, and adapted to the him, but the contributions he had men-
example of the school in Westminster, tioned proved the utility of the institution.
and the examples of Fellenberg and La- Who could deny that children thus edu-
nark, he would not say that there would cated were prepared, though not perhaps
not be a pauper or a criminal in England, fully prepared, to defy the shocks and
but he could say that Scotland or Swit- buffettings of the world infinitely better
zerland would not have fewer than Eng- than they whose progress was more showy,
land, even in seaport-towns. An infant but who became only educated machines?
was in a state of perpetual enjoyment He had almost forgotten to state the ex-
from the intensity of curiosity. There penses of carrying his plan into effect.
was no one thing which it did not learn Taking the average from Devonshire,
sooner and better than at any other period which was the county least provided with
of life, and without any burden to itself schools, the expence would be for build-
or the teacher. But learning was not all, ing of new schools, purchasing of ground,
nor the principal consideration-moral &c.c. 850.000/. But taking the aver-
habits were acquired in these schools; and age from Cumberland, it would be only
by their means children were kept out of 400,0001. Striking a fair medium, he cal-
nurseries of obscenity, vulgarity, vice, culated that about half a million would
and blasphemy. In the establishment at be sufficient-a less sum than had been
Westminster to which he had just alluded, granted by parliament for building six
none but children between three and five churches. There had been a time when
years of age were admitted, and there such an object would have been provided
they were kept out of the streets, and for in England, without any hesitation or
taken care of by a parental indulgent delay, by a voluntary subscription-but
dame, while their mothers were set at li- that time had ceased-the various burdens
berty to go out and work. The expense of taxes and rates had put an end to that
of this establishment was quite trivial, es- feeling, and he was compelled to require
pecially compared to the good which it the necessary aid of parliament. The ex-
produced. Such establishments, there- pence, however, of building these schools,
fore, would, he trusted, be universally cre- combined with the maintenance of them
ated. They required but little money, (which he estimated at about 150,0001. a
and the superintendance of a dame of year) was so comparatively trivial that he
good temper, who might let the children could not suppose parliament would refuse
Indulge in any amusement; always taking to assenttoit; especially when the import-
care, however, to keep them out of im- ant objects in view were duly taken into
proper company. Whether they learnt consideration. Of course he should go
less or more was of little consequence. more fully into the details of the proposi-
Tie moral discipline was the great con- tion when in the committee. At present







89] Education of the Poor.
he would conclude with moving That
leave be given to bring in a bill, for the
better Education of the Poor in England
and Wales."
Lord Castlereagh said, head listened
with much satisfaction to the perspicuous
details given with so much ability by the
lion. and learned gentleman. He was
quite incapable of giving any opinion at
present on the general merits of the pro-
posed plan, but lie should best discharge
his duty by giving his consent to the bring-
ing in of the bill, reserving to some future
occasion the discussion of its principles.
From the importance of the subject and
the great interests involved in it, he hoped
the lion. and learned gentleman would not
press the bill during the present session.
After the bill should have been brought in,
it could be printed, and members would
then be prepared for its discussion. He,
at least, would give it his best attention.
Mr. Brougham said, he had no wish
to press so important a measure hastily
through the House, as, independently of
the advantages which would accrue from its
discussion within doors, great advantages
would also be gained by its discussion out
of doors-hie meant among the clergy of
the establishment, and all who were in any
way connected with it. If the sense of
the House should appear to be in favour
of passing his bill during the present ses-
sion, he should certainly, speaking indivi-
dually, be better pleased; but if the House
should think that it ought to be delayed
to a future occasion, he should cheerfully
submit to such delay as to the House might
appear most advisable.
Mr. Wilbebforce expressed the obliga-
tions which he felt to his hon. and learned
friend for the exertions which he had made,
not only in establishing the principles, but
in explaining the details, on which his bill
was founded. He was confident that those
exertions would be productive of the
greatest benefits to the community, and
that too at no very distant period.
Mr. V. Fitzgerald had listened to the lion.
and learned gentleman's speech with the
utmost attention, and expressed his opinion
that the details which were presented in it
renderedit more incumbent than ever upon
the House to take the state of education
throughout thecountry into theirimmediate
consideration. Some of the plans, how-
ever, which the hon. and learned gentleman
had proposed were totally inapplicable to
Ireland. If he had not himself called the
attention of the House, as he had promised


JUNE 98, 1820. [PU
on a former occasion, to the necessity which
existed for advancing the interests of the
poor in Ireland by a similar investigation,
it was not because lie had abandoned the
intention of doing so, but because he
deemed the present to be an unfit time
for the institution of such a measure.
The circumstances of that country render-
ed it peculiarly necessary that some steps
should be taken for the moral amelioration
of its poorer inhabitants.
Sir J. Newport also remarked on the de-
ficiency of education, and the necessity of
bestowing it on the people of Ireland.
He was sorry that the act for numbering
the population had not been sooner put
into force, because that, by showing the
extent of the want, it would have brought
the House so much nearer to the accom-
plishment of that object. He considered
that in any measure of this sort as applied
to Ireland, it should be distinctly borne in
mind that the great majority of the nation
were ofa different religion from that of the
state.
Mr. Brougham observed, that he had
studiously abstained from any mention of
Ireland throughout his address to the
House, from a consideration of the state of
religion in that country ; and if the Dis-
senters in England bore any such propor-
tion to the members of the Established
Church, as the Catholics in Ireland did to
those of that country, his views of the sub-
ject would have materially differed.
Sir Jamnes Mackintosh said, that lie had
read with great satisfaction the report of
the education committee, and had heard
with still greater satisfaction the measure
which his hon. and learned friend had
founded upon it. Having been himself
alluded to in the course of the observations
which had been made upon this subject,
lie would assert, that though he might be
considered a speculatist, yet he was no
visionary on the subject of education. He
did not intend to trouble the House with
many observations on it at present; but he
could not help making one observation
which had been repeatedly forced upon his
notice during his residence in a distant
part of the British empire. He had re-
peatedly had occasion to remark that mo-
rality if not produced, was at least best
preserved, amongst those of our soldiers
and sailors who were possessed of the
power of communicating with their rela-
tions in Europe by means of writing. It
was a truth so obvious, that there was no
need for him to waste words in dilating







91] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
upon it, that the most powerful incentive
to virtue, and the most effectual restraint
against vice, was destroyed, whenever the
opinion ofthe circle in which a man moved
ceased to have an influence upon his con-
duct. When the intercourse with that
society in which he originally moved ceased
totally to exist, the restraint against vice
generally ceased to exist at the same mo-
ment. Character was then lost, because
no sense of shame was left to preserve it,
because no affections bound the individual
to society, because no attention to his esta-
blishment in life secured his good beha-
viour. He had seen the beneficial effect
of keeping up an intercourse with their
friends and relatives in Europe strikingly
exemplified in those soldiers who came
fiom the same part of the island of which
he was a native ; for they had often made
him the channel through which they re-
mitted sums of money to their relatives at
home-sums which he allowed were but
small in themselves, but which were of so
much the more value, as they would in-
duce virtue, temperance, and frugality, if
not domestic affection. At that time it
appeared to him that the art of writing,
which one of our poets had so warmly
eulogized as calculated to promote affec-
tions much inferior to those which lie
had just mentioned, was an art which made
it almost true that those who were ac-
quainted with it carried their homes with
them wherever they went; for by it they
were enabled to look back upon the home
where they were born as the home to which
they would hereafter return. Allthis de-
pended upon the art of writing, which was
used by them for a better purpose than
that of wafting a sigh from Indus to the
pole." It was used by them to solace the
sufferings of aged and absent parents,
and to foster all the noblest affections which
belonged to humanity.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.

DISTURBANCES IN IRELAND.] Mr.
Daly rose to bring forward his promised
motion. He expressed his regret that he
was under the necessity of calling the at-
tention of the House to the disturbed
state of Ireland. There never was a pe-
riod when the state of that country re-
quired a more prompt and vigorous inter-
position on the part of government ; when
the disturbances were so extensive, and
the outrages of so violent and dangerous
a character. He should abstain from
entering into any topics which were likely


Disturbances in Ireland. [92
to provoke discussion, such as Catholic
emancipation, or the commutation of
tithes, whatever opinion he might enter-
tain of the high importance of those ques-
tions. The state of disaffection and dis-
turbance to which Ireland had been con-
stantly subject for the last sixty years,
might be in a great degree attributed to
the melancholy condition of the lower
orders of its population. In a country
which was for the most part destitute of
manufactures, the population was almost
entirely employed in the cultivation of the
soil, and much of the existing distress had
arisen from the large sums offered to land-
owners by the tenantry, by which pro-
prietors had unfortunately suffered them-
selves to be tempted, but which it was
wholly beyond the means of the tenant to
pay. The disturbances to which he had
alluded commenced about the middle of
November last, in the county of Roscom-
mon and the parts adjacent. An application
was made to government by the magis-
tracy, who undertook to preserve the
peace of their district if 60 men were
sent down to assist them. This assistance
was refused, and the consequence of the
refusal was, that the disaffection spread
so rapidly that it was necessary very short-
ly after to place four districts under the
Peace Preservation act. Renewed distur-
bances took place, in which some lives
were lost, and a gentleman of respecta-
bility was shot by the road-side in a pub-
lic highway. In consequence of this
atrocious murder a meeting of magis-
trates took place ; resolutions were enter-
ed into for the purpose of detecting and
bringing the offenders to justice, and upon
an application being made for 150 soldiers,
government, which had a fortnight before
refused 60 men, now refused to grant 150,
upon the ground that they were afraid to
trust so small a number of soldiers within
the district. Disaffection had now reach-
ed such a head, that the whole eastern
part of the county, consisting of 13 baro-
nies, was placed under the Peace Preser-
vation act. The meeting of the magis-
tracy was adjourned for a fortnight, it not
being deemed prudent to adjourn for a
longer period, and in that short in-
terval, such was the increased audacity of
the rebels, for he could designate them in
no other manner, that upwards of 70 gen-
tlemen's seats had been attacked and
plundered, and there were actually not
five seats in the whole district which had
either not been entered, or defended and







93] Disturbances in Ireland.
saved from the depredators after an ob-
stinate engagement. Government, which
had refused 60 men in November, in the
middle of February were ready to grant a
military force of 3,500 men. The rebels
who had before confined their outrages to
the night, now marched in parties of
1,200 and 1,500 men in open day. They
attacked the police barracks, and thirteen
of the police were dangerously wounded
in a desperate engagement, which lasted
from half past nine in the evening till three
in the morning. For above five hours
was this band of rebels engaged with his
majesty's organised and veteran troops.
He would ask whether this state of things
did not demand the interposition of his
majesty's government, and whether the
country was tobeleft exposed to a renewal
of those atrocities upon the return of
winter ? Memorials had been present.
ed to government by the magistracy, but
his majesty's government had not thought
proper to take any notice of them. There
was an armed and organised force from
ene end of the country to the other.
Some measure, therefore, such as the In-
surrection act, or some act modified as to
the most objectionable parts of the Insur-
rection act, was imperiously demanded to
insure the public peace. It might be
said, that when the assizes came on se-
veral examples had been made ; that some
of these men had been hanged and others
transported ; but so little effect had these
punishments had in subduing the spirit of
disaffection, that he could state from his
own knowledge, that on returning from
the funeral of one of these criminals, a
meeting was fixed by the leaders of the
insurrection, and was actually held upon
the spot where the execution took place.
Several shots were fired upon the magis-
trates on this occasion, and one of the wit-
nesses, who had given evidence against
their comrade, was shot at his own door.
In this situation of the country, it was
not very satisfactory to reflect upon the
probable renewal of these horrors in the
ensuing winter. As soon as he under-
stood that his motion was likely to be op-
posed by his majesty's government, he had
communicated with the principal gentle-
men, with the superintending magistrates,
and with some of the first legal authori-
ties in that country. He would state to
the House the substance of some of the
letters which he had received from the
principal Protestant and Catholic gentle-
men of the county. He had a letter from


JUNE 28, 1820. [9F
the archbishop of Tuam, stating his be-
lief that the country was in a most melan-
choly situation, and demanded the most
prompt and decisive interposition of go-
vernment. That distinguished person
had been compelled to lay aside his cleri-
cal character, and was in fact one of the
most active magistrates in the county.
Mr. D'Arcy, the chief magistrate of the
county, who had been sent down by go-
vernment as superintending magistrate
under the authority of the Peace Preserva-
tion act, was of opinion that the prevail-
ing spirit of disaffection could not be sub-
dued without arming government with
some extraordinary powers, and that
there was no objection to a revival of
the Insurrection act. Government had,
indeed, in some respects, awakened to a
sense of the necessity of preserving the
peace of that district. The country was
studded so thickly with military, that no
man could stand at his door without
seeing parties of soldiers. Government
had been obliged to take another step
which was unconstitutional, although he
allowed it was necessary ; namely to grant
the qualification of the peace to field offi-
cers and captains commanding detach-
ments. If such was the alarm felt at the
present moment, what would be the case
in the long nights, when a part of the
army would probably be withdrawn, in a
country in which the whole population was
armed ? What he had described related
only to one county. He had heard that
both Kilkenny and Cork were disturb-
ed, and that horrible outrages had been
perpetrated in Westmeath. Putting that
out of the question, however, there was
the fact that four counties had been
proclaimed. He had felt it his duty to
state the facts of which he had been an
eye-witness. He had gone out on nights
for a fortnight together, to search the
houses of persons, aid he had hardly
ever found an able bodied man at
home. He had met numbers on
the road. If they were civil, they replied
to his inquiries that they had been danc-
ing at a wedding; if saucy, they ask-
ed what it was to him ? He was obliged
to let them go on, although he knew per-
fectly well their object. He conclud-
ed by moving, That a Select Commit-
tee be appointed to take into considera-
tion the progress and extent of the Dis-
turbances at present existing in Ireland,
to examine whether it be necessary for
their effectual suppression to intrust to the







95] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Government of that country any and what
additional powers, and to report their ob-
servations thereupon to the House."
Mr. D. Brown said, it was impossi-
ble by ordinary means to put down the
disturbances that existed, and hence it
was, that his hon. friend called upon
the House to accede to his proposition
for a select committee on the subject.
It was well known unlawful oaths were
every where administered, especially in
the disturbed districts, and that nothing
but the presence of the military preserv-
ed the public tranquillity.
Mr. Charles Grant perfectly agreed
with the hon. mover in the extreme im-
portance of the subject, not merely be-
cause it involved the character of the exist-
ing government of Ireland, but much
more because it involved the consideration
of the principle on which Ireland had been
and ought to be governed. He (Mr.
Grant) was certainly in a singular situa-
tion. He had felt it his duty already
to state to parliament that there did
not appear to the lord-lieutenant and the
government of Ireland, to be any ground
for proposing the renewal of the Insurrec-
tion act. And now an honourable gen-
tleman rose, and with curious inconsis-
tency complained that the Irish govern-
ment was not alive to the state of Ireland,
and at the same time proposed to enact a
law which was, to give that government
a discretion that they did not think it ne-
cessary to possess Ie felt bound to
oppose the motion; not merely because
it was brought on so late in the ses-
sion (although that, notwithstanding the
explanation of the lion. gentleman, would
have been sufficient); not merely be-
cause if the House were absolutely to
go into a committee, the proposition of
the honourable mover was not sufficient-
ly extensive ; as it did not include any in-
quiry into the local and general causes of
the disturbances ; not merely because he
was hostile to the supposition of the hon.
gentleman, that only what were called
strong measures could be salutary ; but
because the bill which the hon. gentle-
man recommended was contrary to that
principle on which, in his opinion, the
government of Ireland ought to be con-
ducted. Did the House recollect what
were the provisions of the Insurrec-
tion act ? Did they recollect that it for-
bad every person to be absent from his
house from sun-set to sun-rise ? Did they
recollect that it established a perpetual


Disturbances in Ireland. [96
Sessions, to which persons apprehended for
a violation of the law might be taken,
and, without a grand jury or a petty jury,
on the sole opinion of the magistrates at
those sessions, acting under the influence
of the passions and the feelings of the mo-
ment, condemn to transportation for
seven years ? Such was the Insurrection
act; and the complaint was, that the
government of Ireland were reluctant to
re-enact it. Nay, the meeting in Galway
had declared, that if the Irish government
did not propose its re-enactment, they
would forfeit the confidence of the coun-
try. Something, however, had been said
of a mitigated Insurrection act, by which
persons accused of violating it should be
tried by a jury. Now it was his deliber-
ate opinion, that under the peculiar cir-
cumstances of Ireland, it would be better
to have the Insurrection act with all its
enormities, than this modified act; be-
cause, if parliament were to adopt the
severer measure, they would guard against
its continuance ; whereas, he had little
doubt that the milder measure would be
rendered permanent.
0 gently on thy suppliant's head,
Dread Goddess! lay thy chastening hand,
Not in thy Gorgon terrors clad."
In that benign form" he had no doubt
that an attempt would be made to render
the Insurrection act permanent. The
lion. mover, in laying the grounds for his
motion, had spoken much of the disturb-
ances in Ireland. He (Mr. Grant) was
not informed to that effect. By the ac-
counts which he had received it appeared
that Ireland was in a state of great

tranquillity. He was never disposed
to disguise evils and dangers; but he
felt that it was his duty not to exag-
gerate them. The people of Ireland were
rather hardly dealt by. If there were
any local outrages in that country then
the Insurrection act was called ftr; ifl
quiet seemed to prevail, it was said to be
delusive, and to threaten a tremendous
convulsion. If he were asked whether,
Ireland was in such a state that all consi-
derations for the future might be calmly
resigned, his answer would be, that he
would be a bold man who, in the present
state of the world, would predicate that
of any part of his majesty's dominions.
Unquestionably there were in the history
of Ireland deeply seated causes for dis-
content and disturbance. For those
causes they must look to the two centu-







97] Disturbances in Ireland.
ries which preceded the middle of his late
majesty's reign. Never had a great nation
been ill-treated with impunity. If great
principles were sacrificed to gain a tem-
porary end, for the moment safety might
be obtained, but the hour of retribution
would surely arrive. The present causes
of the agitation with which Ireland was
occasionally-afflited weremnong others
the extent of illicit distillation, the fatal
influence of religious animosity, the re-
dundance of population, and the absence
of employment. But what had those
causes to do with an inquiry by a com-
mittee of that House. Some of them no
legislature could reach. They must be
left to time, and to the beneficial effect of
a more general intercourse with England.
Some of them it was in the power of the
resident gentry to control. Undoubtedly
there were causes of the evil to which the
legislature ought to look ; but they were
not fit subjects for the investigation of a
committee; they were abundantly notori-
ous and ascertained. But above all, the
renewal of the Insurrection act would be
the worst mode of meeting the evil. Ad-
verting to the recent disturbances, the right
hon. gentleman observed, that it was un-
pleasant in him to make the remark ; but as
the hon. mover had put the government
on its defence for its conduct on" that oc-
casion, he was obliged, however reluc-
tantly, to say, that every person connected
with the government of Ireland must,
under such circumstances, expect to re-
ceive, day after day, applications for mili-
tary force, accompanied by declarations of
great alarm and infinite danger. No
doubt, those by whom such declarations
were made thought them well-founded;
but it was the duty of government to use
a sound discretion, and to consider how
far it might be proper to afford the re-
quired aid. Under such circumstances
the first duty of government was, to en-
deavour to rouse the local authorities
themselves to attempt the suppression of
the evil. If that failed, their second duty
-a duty to be always reluctantly per-
formed-was to supply such a moderate
military force as would enable the local
authorities to suppress the evil. If that
should fail their next duty was to resort
to the provisions of the Peace Preserva-
tion bill. He was not presumptuous
enough to say, that no reproach whatever
could attach to the present government
of Irelald: but, attacked as that govern-
ment had been, he might perhaps be al-
VOL. II.


Juxtr '28, 1820. [98
lowed to maintain, that in the instance in
question it had acted as it ought. The
right hon. gentleman here entered into a
minute detail of the applications which
had been made by the magistrates of the
county of Galway for military aid, and of
the measures taken by the Irish govern-
ment in consequence. During the last
thirty or forty years, it had been the con-
viytion of successive administrations in
Ireland, that it was necessary, by some
means or other, to descend from the sys-
tera of extraordinary measures by which
that country had been so long governed.
That conviction was manifested by the
government of lord Cornwallis. It was
manifested to a great extent by the admi-
nistration of his right lion. friend who had
immediately preceded him (Mr. Peel).
His right hon. friend had established the
Peace Preservation bill, because it was
not safe to descend too suddenly from the
system which had been so long pursued.
The Insurrection act was in force when
his right lion. friend came into office, but
he had wisely allowed it to expire. Under
what circumstances was Ireland when
that act was allowed to expire? The
counties of Tipperary and Down had just
recovered from an insurrection. In Loutlh
there had been great agitation, and many
atrocities had been committed. These evils
had been suppressed by the application of
a large military force-by the operation of
the Peace Preservation act-and, as was
believed by many, by the operation of the
Insurrection act. What did his right hon.
friend do, zealous and anxious as every
one knew he was for the peace of Ireland ?
Did he declare the apparent tranquillity
hollow, and ask for the continuance of the
Insurrection act, that it might be ready
for the next winter? No-not because
he did not expect disturbances would
recur, but because he believed the power
with which the government was vested by
the constitution to be sufficient for their
suppression. What was the case at pre-
sent ? There had been some disturbances
in Galway. Those disturbances had been
suppressed. How ? By a military force,
and by the operation of the Peace Preser-
vation act. The tranquillity of the county
of Clare had been menaced. The threat-
ened movement had been repressed by
the exertion of the resident gentry, and
by the operation of the Peace Preserva-
tion act. The tranquillity of the county
of Mayo had also been threatened but
had been maintained by the vigorous et-
SH








forts of the local gentry, even without it would not be good for Ireland. The
the Peace Preservation act. Did he say, calamities by which Ireland had been
that there would never be any further dis- most deeply afflicted, were to be mainly
turbance in Ireland ? Was he to be told ascribed to their constant recourse to ex-
by gentlemen whom it was his interest traordinary measures. To them was to
and his wish to conciliate, that he was be traced the too general abandonment,
abandoning the cause of Ireland, because by the magistrates of Ireland, of their
he was unwilling to place in the hands of proper functions, and the consequent desa
the lord lieu!Wnant and the government of: truction of the mutual relations of do.
Treland a power which, until the passiWT pendenee-and support between them and
of the Insurrection act, had never existed the people. If the laws of a country did
since the days of the Norman conquest' not restrain alike the rich and the poor-
As he was speaking on this subject, he if they were rendered applicable to one
was bound to say, that if the same exer- class and not to the other, how was it pos-
rion had been made in the county of Gal- sible to suppose that magistrates could be
way, as in the counties of Clare and found capable and willing as in England
Mayo by the resident gentry, the disor- to discharge with correctness all the high
ders would have been checked in the first duties entrusted to them ? But if such
instance. In su- port of that opinion, and was the effect of the system to which he
of the necessity for such exertion, the alluded on the magistracy, what effect
right hon. gentleman quoted at consi- had it on the great mass of the people of
derable length the charge of judge Daly Ireland ? With what aspect had the con-
who went to try the ribbon-men in Galway; stitution been always shown to them?
and who strongly reprobated the con- Angry and vindictive. It had been exhi-
duct of those who conceived that they bited, not as the medium of doing justice,
should save their lives and property by his but as affording the means of gratifying
supineness and a leaning to the mob. resentment. It was the essence of all
From this censure it was but just, utterly good government, that the excesses of the
to exempt the hon. mover of the proposi- people should be resisted by steady and
tion before the House as well as several constitutional, and not by extraordinary
other honourable gentlemen. To the measures. More especially was it expe-
charge, therefore, of being careless as to dient that the people of Ireland should
the future tranquillity of Ireland he could find that their crimes and excesses were
not plead guilty. He had an unfeigned met not by extraordinary measures but by
respect for many of those who differed the established laws, and by the constitu-
from him in opinion on the subject; but tion, in the common and daily exercise of
he must put it to their good sense and its powers. He would again appeal to
feeling seriously to consider on what prin- those hon. gentlemen who were connected
ciple the government of Ireland ought to with Ireland-he would again call onr
be conducted. Was it not important to them to consider whether it would not be
ask when the system which had so long very practicable, by local exertion, to do
prevailed, was to end ? Was it not im- away with the necessity of a recourse to
portant to determine what should be the any such measure as the Insurrection act.
limit to the system of extraordinary mea- He intreated those who came to that
sures ? If a modified insurrection act were House for stronger powers to protect
adopted to-day, why might not a com- them from the people, to consider if, in
plete insurrection act be adopted a year the districts in which they resided, the
hence? Why might it not be proposed local causes of the evil might not be
to abolish the Habeas Corpus ? He ap. so softened as to supersede such a fatal
pealed to those who were conversant with necessity-fatal, not merely because it
the history of Ireland, whether they did was in itself a violation of the constitu-
not in their conscience believe that the tion, but because it naturally led to greater
greater part of the evils under which violations of the constitution. He did
Ireland now laboured, were attributable not say that it was practicable immediately
to the system which hl.d been pursued for to abolish the system which he had so
two centuries? ThI case of Ireland had strongly reprobated. He might fail in
always been considered as an excepted the attempt; his successor might fail in
ease. This had been the unvaried tone- the attempt; but ultimately be was per-
that such or such a particular measure suaded that that important object would
might be very good for England, but that I be accomplished. It was by a steady and


Disturbances h? 1yela-1.


[100


99] Y1USy oi, com~io,\zs








inflexible adherence to constitutional prin. of government. He had, in common i with
ciples that England had attained to her most liberal Irish gentletui n, ihe highest
present prosperity; and by pursuing a respect for the candour, feeling, and worth
similar course he hoped that Ireland would of the right hon. secretary for Ireland; but
share the advantage. It was on these whilst he made this admission, he could
grounds that he must most respectfully not help saying, that he felt it his iniperi-
but most firmly oppose such propositions ous duty to support the motion of his hon.
as that under consideration. He was not friend.
so rash or so foolish as to say that there Mr. IW Parnell said that from the state-
would be no more disturbances in Ireland, ments he had that night heard, he should
but he would say, that come when they have imagined that Ireland was in a stat-
might, they ought to be met on the prin- of universal disturbance; but the fact was,
ciples of the constitution. A sudden there had been some disturbance in Gal-
emergency might require a temporary re- way, and they were now called upon for
medy; but whenever the great features of more rigorous measures, after the lenient
the law by which Ireland was governed, proceedings of government had had their
differed from those of the law by which proper and full effect.
England was governed, he could not but Mr. Wellesle.y Pole said, lie felt it ne-
consider that difference as a departure cessary to point out to his hon. friend, the
from justice and wisdom. The right hon member for Galway, why lie considered
gentleman sat down amidst loud and ge- the measure of an Insurrection act per-
neral cheers. i fectly unnecessary. The British House
Mr. Datson regretted, in common with of Commons would always ht ar with sur-
his hon. friend, the inattention which had prise an application from Irish members
been paid to the general state of Ireland to coerce their own country, by enact-
by the government, of which the right hona. ments abhorrent to the constitutional feel-
gentleman formed so prominent a member. ings of that House. It was remarkable.
Great partofthesessionhadnow elapsed, that although the Insurrection act had
and no notice had been taken of the nightly been passed in 1807, as a means of in-
meetings, the outrages, and the blood- timidating and keeping the spirit of in-
thirsty assassinations which had invaded subordination in check, it had never been
thequiet ofa whole province,andproduced acted on, except in the district alluded
the loss of many lives. Had his hon. to, although frequently applied for by
friendproposed an insurrectionactat once, local magistrates in other quarters of
heshouldnothavesupportedsuchamotion, that country. The object of government
because lie was, generally speaking, averse at that period, and lie then formed a part
to measures of violence rashly or hastily of it, was, to conciliate the feelings of the
adopted. The evils of the state of Ire- people, whilst they endeavoured to pos-
land at present originated, in a great sess themselves of sufficient power to go-
degree, from those unavoidable circum- vern that country with tranquillity. Was
stances in which she had been placed for the House prepared to strengthen the
a series ofyears past. The soldiery, scat- hands of the Irish government beyond
tered at a great distance from head-quar- even what that government considered
ters, too often plundered the peasantry. necessary for its authority, and the pre-
This begat reprisals, and the peasantry servation of the public tranquillity ? He
rose in arms, or secretly avenged their had been surprised at hearing from his
wrongs by assassination. The Insurrec- ihon. friend, that a whole province of Ire-
tion act was passed in 1807, with a view land was now in a state of inisurrection.
to prevent the necessity of employing the Hle believed it was no such thing. In
military. Thedanger now was greater; and fact, they themselves had admitted that,
yetanymeasure ofthis nature was declared owing to the application of the Peace
by government to be unnecessary. Gen- Preservation bill, the country had been
tlemen who, like himself, were in the restored to tranquillity. Under these cir-
habit ofsupporting government, expected cumstances, he conceived that no case
theyshouldbeprotectedbythegovernment had been made out for such an enact-
in their turn; and it was of greater import- ment, and he should therefore vote against
ance to them that their dwelling should the motion.
he protected, their repose undisturbed, Mr. V. Filzwcrald maintained the ex-
and their lives unmenaccd, than that any pediency of'tlic proposed, inquiry, although
particular set of men should hold the reins it appeared to be rciatcd by the combined


Disturbances in Ireland.


JuTi, 28, ISW0. [ ICJ9







1033] HOUSE OF COMMONS,


Dislerbanccs in Ireland.


L[iO


parties in the House. His right hon. of increasing the powers of the magis-
friend, who had made such an impression trates, and alluded to the beneficial re-
on the House by his eloquence, had said suits of the Insurrection act when Ireland
that it was proposed to renew the Insur- was in a state of disturbance, as a proof
reaction act. That was not the proposition that some modification of it would be at-
before the House. Many who voted for tended with advantage at present. He
inquiry might oppose the Insurrection act, thought no plan could be better calculated
or only agree to it if stripped of the ob- to secure the tranquillity of Ireland than
jectionable and severe enactments on that which had been proposed. In the
which his right hon. friend had descanted. county he represented, nocturnal meetings
The province of Connaught had been not were held, and recourse had even been
merely disturbed, but in a state of rebel- had to assassination, where the unfortu-
lion. Regular battles had been fought nate victim was suspected of having re-
there between the insurgents and the vealed the projects of the conspirators.
king's troops. It was quiet at present; He was firmly of opinion that the in.
but it was a dreadful tranquillity, occa- production of the bill would be very be-
sioned by pouring in a large military neficial.
force. It was not his wish, or the wish Lord Castlereagh said, that no man
of those who supported the motion, to en- had a greater respect for the opinion of
force measures of coercion; but lie the right hon. gentleman who had just sat
thought they had a right to ask parlia- down than lie had, because from his great
ment to investigate the situation of a local knowledge and experience he might
country in which rebellion had so lately be considered competent to form a correct
raged. He denied that the Peace Pre- judgment. He must, however, deny that
servation bill was a substitute for the In- there was any thing in the present state of
surrection act, and reminded the House Ireland to justify the introduction of such
that Mr. Grattan, for whose talents and a measure under any modification. If
principles they had so great a respect, was Ireland was really in such a state as had
among the number of those who approved been described by his right hon. friend
of the Insurrection act when brought (Mr. V. Fitzgerald), he could not help
under the consideration of parliament, thinking that he was rather tardy in not
The object of his lion. friend's motion was coming forward until now that tranquillity
not to revive that act in its full force, had been restored under the authority of
but merely to retain that part of it which the law of the land. The Insurrection act
gave the magistrates a right to institute was not a measure to be adopted upon a
domiciliary visits if the motion was to precautionary principle; it required the
be followed up by any positive enact. existence of insurrection to justify its
ment. introduction. It was, in fact, like the in-
Mr.R. Martin denied, that in the county come tax, a measure, which, if adopted
of Galway there was any thing like a re- at a proper time, and with proper regula-
bellion. In the baronies where his pro- tions, might lie attended with the best
perty was situated, every thing was tran- effects, but which ought never to be in-
quil, and he claimed their exception from produced without the existence of an ade-
the imputation. He opposed the motion, quate necessity. Ireland was now in a
and recommended his hen. colleague to tranquil state; and he thought it would
withdraw it, as the measure was unneces- be at once impolitic and uncalled for to
sary in the present situation of the select a moment of public quiet to bring
country. into action a measure, the spirit of which
Sir J. Newport expressed his satisfac. was agreed, upon all hands, to be re-
tion at being able for once to support the pugnant to the constitution, and which
conduct of the executive government could only be warranted by an adequate
with regard to Ireland. He begged leave state of public disturbance.
to remind his right hon. friend, that General lart wished his lion. friend
though Mr. Grattan had supported the would withdraw his motion, as it would
Insurrection act generally in the then only tend, if carried, to make the Irish
state of the country, he had repeatedly people believe they were not looked upon
divided the House on that very clause of as a portion of the British empire. Con-
domiciliary visits to which it was now ciliation would do every thing for Ire-
proposed that the act should be limited, land: it would promote the union of the
Mr. Foster contended for the necessity two countries; and he was happy to hear
i t







JO1] Parga.
that such a system was to be acted on in its
future government. Gratitude was a term
which it was said could not be found in
the Irish language; but it was a senti-
ment, lie was sure, that could be found
in every Irish heart. The government
had just extended to the people of Ire-
land a measure to relieve their commer-
cial distress, and when they had done this
with one hand, they ought not with the
other to tell them they were to be sub-
dlued by a military force.
The motion was then negatived.

IOUSE OF COMM ONS.
Thursday, June 29.
FEMALEOFFENDERS WIHIPPING BILLL]
Mr. Chetwynd rose to move for leave to
bring in a bill to abolish the punishment
of Whipping Female Offenders in any case
whatever. The House was aware, that by
an act of the year 1817, the system of
public whipping of females had been wholly
exploded; but he was surprised that the
private whipping of females had been by
that measure permitted to continue, look-
ing on it as he did as objectionable, or
even more objectionable than the other.
It might be said, in defence of its conti-
nuance, that it was necessary for the sake
of example; but, on the other hand, as
the infliction of the punishment was pri-
vate, it was in the power of the gaoler or
other superintendent to render it the most
excruciating torture possible, or a mere
matter of form ; and this alone he thought
a decided objection to it. With respect
to the public whipping of females, he was
of opinion that no exhibition could be
more revolting to the feelings. The act
to which he had alluded only abolished
the punishment of the public whipping of
females; but if the House would agree
with him, they would go much further.
His intention was to move for leave to
bring in a bill to repeal that act, and sub-
stitute other provisions for the more ef-
fectual prevention of the whipping of
females; and the object of it would be to
prohibit that practice, not only in the
cases already provided for, but in work-
houses, houses of correction, lunatic asy-
lums, and other places for the reception
of lunatics. If, therefore, the House
should be of opinion that it should in
no case be permitted, he should humbly
move for leave to bring in a bill to abolish
the punishment of whipping female of-
tenders in any case whatever.


JUNE 29, 1820. I106
Leave was given, and the bill was
brought in and read a first time.

PARGA.] Lord John Russell rose for
the purpose of submitting his promised
motion relative to the production of a
copy of the memorial presented by a native
of Parga to the secretary of state. He
was perfectly aware, that at the present
time of the year, so near the conclusion of
the session, and in the present agitated
state of the public mind, it was extremely
difficult for him to engage that attention
which he could wish to circumstances
occurring in a distant country, and not at
all connected with that one paramount
and domestic object which at present en-
tirely occupied the public mind ; but at
the same time, he felt it his duty to urge
this momentous subject, as one well-de-
serving the attention of parliament; and
he thought that they were bound to give
Sto the people of Parga that protection,
which was not only a valuable right, and
one to be extended, in such a case, of all
others, but which could alone be their
safeguard from the further continuance
of those abuses and that oppression under
which they at present laboured. The
House would not expect that he should
now enter into a detailed view of the
question as to the cession of Parga.
Would to God that he could enter into it
with such effect as to be able to induce
the House to commiserate the fate, and
to relieve the situation, of a wronged and
gallant people Notwithstanding all the
attempts which had been made by an
anonymous writer to colour the transac-
tions which had betrayed them, and to
gloss over the counsels which had achieved
their ruin, he thought the general opinion
of mankind would be, that this was a case
of as notorious treachery and as grievous
injury, as any that had ever yet occurred
in the world. And what had been the
consequence, as regarded our own repu-
tation ? Our enemies always alluded with
extreme anxiety to the case of Parga, as
an instance of our acquiescence in op-
pression, and our desertion of the cause
of freemen; and they reproached us with
this fatal inconsistency-that we, who for
ages, and throughout protracted wars, had
stood forward as the champions of the
rights of nations, were content, when the
enemies of the Parguinotes required their
submission, and the surrender of their
rights, to act in a very different character,
and upon principles contrary to those on






107J HOUSE OF COMMONS,


Parga.


[108


which we had hitherto unsheathed our use it. Their chief anxiety had been to
swords.-The noble lord then briefly be enabled to live in tranquillity under a
stated what had been the treatment which just government.-The noble lord here
Parga had received upon the occasion of introduced a passage from the rev. Mr.
the recent cessions; and observed, that Eustace's work, in illustration of the real
although by a former treaty with other state of Parga; he afterwards alluded to
powers, in 1800, it was stipulated that she some parts of sir T. Maitland's dispatches,
should preserve the free exercise of her observing, that that officer, as high con-
religion, that condition was broken in the missioner, was placed in a very difficult
very first war that ensved between Russia situation: he possessed great power at
and Turkey. In the treaty of 1815, by the head of what was called the constitu-
which the Ionian Islands were ceded to tional government, and was furnished with
us, no provision was made for Parga; and a large foreign force to suppress discon-
therefore it had been said, that the Par- tent or rebellion: he was a sovereign,
guinotes were excluded from the opera- without the usual checks to which even
tion of that treaty. But it had been re- monarchs were subject; and might be
plied, and very justly, that because the considered, in some points of view, a
treaty of 1815 alluded to that of 1800, greater man than the king, from whom he
therefore Parga was entitled to the benefit received authority. In the exercise of his
of it. The Parguinotes said, At least powers, sir T. Maitland had taxed the
let us have some security that our rights, people of Santa Maura very heavily, hav-
our property, and our religion, are not to ing obtained the consent of the senate,
be sacrificed to the Turks." The same appointed by himself; but the approbation
anonymous writer turned round upon of the House of Commons of the Ionian
this request, aln had endeavoured to show Islands seemed to be a trifle he had en-
that neither by the treaty, nor in equity, tirely disregarded. The right hon. the
were they entitled even to these. The chancellor of the exchequer might, per-
property which a treaty had intended to haps, obtain a useful lesson of finance by
secure had been ravished from them-the listening to the plans adopted by general
religion which it had been stipulated to Maitland. He had taxed not only wine,
preserve had been violated-and the bul- oxen, and other ordinary commodities,
warks, the safeguards, attempted to be but he had fixed upon one that in no
set up, had been swept away. Now, the other country, from the earliest times, had
property of these Parguinotes, which was been subjected to an impost-water. He
so given up to the Turks, was estimated, had required the payment of a dollar per
by the writer in the Quarterly Review, month for every well or fountain. Even
at 300,000/. Let the House observe the in this much-taxed country of England,
monstrous injustice which had occurred such an expedient had never been re-
in this part of the transaction: the buyer sorted to. In this way the high com-
was permitted to estimate the property, missioner had asserted that there was a
while the seller was denied that right, larger surplus of revenue this year than
The Turks were allowed to make an esti- at any former period, notwithstanding lie
mate; that privilege was refused to the had given salaries to some officers never
Parguinotes. In the first instance, the before paid, and had doubled and trebled
sum of money at which their property the emoluments of others. Besides,
was estimated by the British consul was when he spoke of a surplus, lie seemed to
277,0001.: the Turks, as matter of course, have forgotten the large sums he had
estimated it at very considerably less; received from this country, and voted by
and the estimate subsequently transmitted the British House of Commons, for the
by sir Thomas Maitland, was of no maintenance of his authority. His lord-
greater an amount than 150,000/. After ship was willing to allow that the govern-
the preliminary valuations were corn- ment of sir T. Maitland might have been
pleted, and the sum thus diminished, the beneficial in some respects. He was an
Parguinotes were obliged to accept pay- able and efficient officer ; but it was very
merit in the Turkish alloy. This arrange- unfit that any man, however qualified,
ment being concluded, the unhappy peo- should be erected into a sovereign so
pie wished for some spot of ground where despotic. His conduct regarding cern
they might erect a new town ; but the had been perfectly orthodox; he had taken
place assigned for them was so barren and the whole subsistence of the island of
unpromising, that they were unable to Corfu into his own hands. It might be







109] Purga. .JUNE 29, 1820. [110
very true that formerly a few merchants and Turkey soon after took possession of
monopolized the trade in grain; but it the Ionian islands. The treaty of 1800,
did not follow that on this account it was which followed, was one of temporary dis-
fit that such an advantage ought to be tribution, not of final cession ; but not long
seized bythe executive authorities. Hav- afterwards, namely, in 1801, the Ionian
ing referred to certain opinions expressed islands, including Parga, ere given in so-
by sir T. Maitland on the subject of re- vereignty to Turkey, with, however, a
form, and to complaints made against him distinct government of their own. This
and transmitted to Petersburgh, his lord- amounted to a direct transfer, and the
ship concluded by moving for the copy of contract was as complete as any that had
a memorial presented to the secretary of ever occurred between two nations. In
state for the colonial department, by a 1806, Russia declared war against Turkey,
native of Parga, and for certain copies of and conquered Parga and the other pos-
or extracts from the dispatches of sir sessions of the Porte on the Albanian
Thomas Maitland relative to Parga. coast; but when peace was subsequently
Mr. Goulburn congratulated the House, made, the integrity of the Turkish do-
that after two or three years of misrepre- minions was fully recognized. There was
sentations, invented with art and circulat- nothing, therefore, to warrant Great Bri-
ed with industry, the time was not far tain in assigning the rights of sovereignty
distant when the documents to be laid over Parga to any other power than Tur-
upon the table of parliament would lay the key. It was very true that in the treaty
whole case regarding Parga fairly before formed at the Congress of Vienna no men-
the country. The House would then be tion was made of Parga; but this was not
able to judge whether the resignation of an accidental omission, inasmuch as Tur-
this island was, as had been asserted, an key being no party to the negotiations, it
act of grievous treachery, or whether, on would have been most extraordinary if she
the contrary, it had not been inevitable, if or her dependencies had been introduced
any regard was to be paid to positive and into the treaty. The very engagement
distinct engagements. The whole of the under which the British troops had enter-
speech of the noble lord afforded the ed Parga prevented this government from
strongest confirmation that he himselfen- keeping possession of it; and he denied
tertained some doubt upon the question. most positively, thit there was any under-
If the case of Parga manifestly and indis- standing that it should remain in the hands
putably reflected disgrace on the British of this country. He had searched all the
government, would the noble lord have papers in the colonial office, and could
thought it necessary to wander about in find no document relative to any autho-
search of subsidiary matter not really and rity given on the part of this government
fairly connected with the point at issue, to lead the inhabitants of Parga into a be-
but relating to the whole government of lief that they were to remain under the
the Ionian islands ? The talents and dex- protection of Great Britain. He had then
terity of the noble lord would not have written to sir James Campbell, the con-
been so exerted, had he not been sensi- handing officer on that station, for the
ble that he must find something or other purpose of learning whether he had di-
to bolster up a bad case. The noble lord reacted any subordinate officer to make
had alluded to certain anonymous state- such a communication, or to hold forth
ments recently published regarding Parga such a prospect. The answer (which sir
but he gave the noble lord credit for be- James Campbell did not write, for the
ing unconnected with other anonymous state of his health disabled him, but which
statements elsewhere printed, which had he dictated) was, that he had authorized
led to that refutation. He maintained no person to enter into an engagement or
that the British government had not re- to give any assurance to that effect. The
stored Parga to Turkey, without being course which government had to pursue,
fully satisfied that the latter had an indis- therefore, was distinctly marked, and
putable right to the island; and he pro- could not be mistaken. It was a course
ceeded to prove his assertion by reference of duty and a path prescribed by the let-
to the treaty of Campo Formio, by which ter of an express stipulation with another
it had been first made over to France, and power. He was sure that, whatever dif-
subsequently relinquished to Turkey. The ference of opinion might prevail, on the
war between France and the Porte broke question of the general policy of our trea-
out in 1798, and the joint fleets of Russia ties with the Porte, no honourable mem-







11] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
ber would deny the necessity of our faith-
fully performing the engagements which
we had contracted. With regard to the
mode of restoration, and the circumstances
under which that proceeding had been
conducted, he only begged that, before
any gentleman formed an opinion, he
would carefully consider what course it
was practicable to adopt. As far as the
treatment of the Parguinotes by the Turk-
ish government was in question, they had
not complained of it, nor had any of those
inconveniencies or oppressions, of which
so much was said, been experienced dur-
ing the six years of their dependence on
that state. Parga, it must be recollected,
stood in absolute need of the protection
of some foreign power; she had not with-
in herself the means of support or of self-
defence for a single week. It would have
been most impolitic in the British govern-
ment to have embarked in any guarantee
which it was not prepared to maintain
against Turkey. But at the same time
that it was announced to the inhabitants
that the island itself was to be transferred
to Turkey, a declaration was published,
that those who were averse to the new
government would be permitted to retire.
The only question then was, whether the
Parguinotes had received the boni jide
value of their property, on their accepting
the offer of retiring with their effects.
Notwithstanding all that had been urged
on this point, he was satisfied that, if the
documents were attentively perused, no
doubt would exist that adequate compen-
sation had been afforded. These would
show clearly, and beyond all dispute, that
the Parguinotes had received full value
for all which they possessed. He well
knew that their own estimate amounted
to no less than 600,0001.-an immense
value, when it was distributed over one
town, and divided among 2,700 persons.
It was impossible to believe that this ge-
neral valuation of their property was cor-
rect. He would also draw the attention
of the House to the circumstance, that
the Parguinotes had not been left like
other people to the chances of private
purchase, but that the government had
taken upon itself to pay at a just valua-
tion. The compensation actually afforded
exceeded the limit fixed by the individual
who had been most anxious to defend
their interests. He trusted, therefore,
that the House would not be disposed to
put any faith in the correctness of the
estimate which had been alluded to by the


Par ga.


F[ 12


noble lord. So different were the valua.
tions which had been made, that one
amounted to 50,0001., and another to
280,0001. The House would recollect,
that the value of property could not be
measured by any simple rule, but de-
pended not only on the character of the
government, but on many other fortuitous
circumstances. To swell it in this in-
stance beyond the limit which had been
fixed would, he was persuaded, be to err
as much as it would be to take the annual
produce of an estate in the West Indies,
cultivated by the labour of slaves, and as-
sign to it the same number of years
purchase as to landed property in Eng-
land. The Parguinotes had no right to
expect the value of their land, when they
were informed by the governor of the
Ionian islands that a tract of land was to
be assigned to them, and means furnished
for building churches. The documents
on the table presented abundant and con-
clusive evidence of the fitness of the
place to which they had been removed.
Exact descriptions had been given in of
every species of property; no general or
average calculation had been relied on :
and although the Parguinotes complained
that the sum allotted was unequal to the
claims of justice or to their rights, he had
not met with a single instance of an indi-
vidual objecting to the smallness of his
own particular share. The noble lord had
adverted to another point, touching the
supposed harshness of the instructions
sent out to sir T. Maitland, and to his
harshness in executing them. It had
been urged, that the conduct of sir T.
Maitland was not to be justified by any
circumstances. The substance of the in-
structions, however, was, that the British
government would not agree to support
the labouring classes in idleness, and that
as soon as they reached their new abodes
they must depend on their own resources.
What other course, he would ask, was it
open to government to pursue, unless it
was prepared to support almost the whole
population of Parga for an indefinite pe-
riod? He was not then in a situation to
enter upon a defence of the whole admi-
nistration of sir T. Maitland, but he
would say that the taxes he had imposed
were fully justified by the exigencies of
the case. That officer had abolished the
monopoly of corn, which he found in ex-
istence on his arrival, and established a
free trade. It was not until compelled
by necessity that he re-enacted the ipolo-







113] Parga. JuNE 29, 1820. [114
poly, which he could only do by taking it ed with colonel de Basset, the officer al-
into the hands of government. At the lauded to, when he commanded in the
time when this proceeding was adopted, island of Cephalonia; that there was not
there were not more than seven days' pro- a more honourable or well-deserving offi-
visions in the place. As to the other cer under the Crown; his plan appeared
complaints against that distinguished the fairest, namely, to value the rentals
officer, he might safely rest the answer on for a certain number of years, and fix the
his general character through a long price of each person's property upon that
course of service; and lie was sure that principle. BeCides the roads, bridges,
the more his conduct was examined, the and other improvements of the same na-
more it would be found to deserve appro- ture, which colonel de Bosset caused to be
bation. He should be ready to enter at made in Cephalonia, it was that officer
any time into this discussion, and was who had the honour of extirpating the
confident that when the whole subject was unfortunate practice of homicide, which
before them there would be but one opi- so generally prevailed in that country
union respecting it. previous to his arrival ; and he would rest
Sir Robert Wilson said, his opinion had the defence of that officer on the question,
always been, that it was impossible, consi- whether one out of one hundred of the
during the situation of Parga, for usto keep inhabitants would refuse to bear testimony
possession of it. That possession must be in his favour? He was well convinced
deemed as offensive to Turkey, as Dover that colonel de Bosset's conduct towards
in the hands of the French would be to the inhabitants of Parga would reflect as
us, or Calais in our possession to the much credit as all his other acts in the
French. What he complained of and Ionian islands. As to the conduct of sir
lamented was, that England should have T. Maitland, some further explanation
charged itself with the odious responsi- was, le thought, desirable. It could not
ability of the cession. When that proceed- be denied, whatever might have caused
ing, however, was adopted, the most the alteration, that before lie went there
scrupulous care should have been taken to all was peace and unanimity, and that
secure to the inhabitants the full value of complaints had since become general. It
their property. There was at present did not appear to him that the valuation
every reason to believe that the Pargui- of property at Parga had been made on a
notes were dissatisfied; that they did not just principle ; it had been made accord-
think they had received the protection ing to the standard at Corfu, which was
which had been promised to them ; and as inapplicable as it would be to appreci-
that our character had suffered in the eyes I ate property in this country by its value in
of Europe. France. The first estimate which had
Mr. Hume observed, that, feeling as he been founded on annual rental was, in his
did for the condition of a people who had opinion, the correct one. Another com-
been compelled to remove from their na- plaint was, that the inhabitants of Parga
tive homes, he hoped the House would ex.. had been kept in ignorance for a consi-
cuse him for offering a few observations on derable time of the mode in which the esti-
the subject. lie admitted that Parga mate was drawn up, and of the principle
stood in need of some protecting power, upon which the valuation was conducted.
and had been for a long time dependent on Two valuations had, he believed, been
the Venetian republic. The treaty of made, but no decisive information had
Tilsit had, however, as he conceived, dis- been given on the subject. Whatever
tinctly conveyed it by name, with the those valuations might have been,
other lonian islands, to France. It after- general Maitland took no notice of
wards fell into our hands by conquest and them ; but in his proclamation, of' the
the treaty of 1S15. This t leat t was the 19th of March, declared that only a sum
general understanding ; an and the impres- of 150,0001. was to be distributed amongst
sion of the Parguinotes themselves certain. the inhabitants. What he wished to
ly was, that they were to share in the fate know was, whether the valuation was
of the other islands. With respect to the 120,000/., or 150,0001. or 270,0001.
officer alluded to by the hon. gentleman Such a proceeding, as the noble mover
opposite to have raised expectations in had said, was rather a harsh one to be em-
the minds of the people of Parga which played, when these unfortunate individuals
could not fairly be fulfilled, he must say, were forced from their homes. But even
that he had the pleasure of being acquaint- from this 150,000/. a deduction was made,
VOL. II. I







115] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
on the ground that the payment should be
in Spanish dollars-in good current
money. The payment was, however,
made in bad money, but the deduction
was not, therefore, relinquished. A few
months ago, 48,0001. were deducted from
the gross sum of 150,0001., to cover differ-
ent expenses, and the loss by exchange.
Now, though this large deduction was
made, instead of being paid in good money,
as they had been promised, five-sixths of
the whole sum was in reality base money.
He understood that general Maitland had
since offered to restore this 4.8,0001., pro-
vided the Parguinotes would give up all
farther claims. Last year ministers stated
the island of Marganese would be given
up to the Parguinotes, and this place
was described as a fine fruitful territory,
where they might easily build a town.
He, however, had been there, and it was
nothing but a heap of stones, where it
would be almost impossible to form a
garden. The portion of Corfu which was
appropriated to the use of these unfortu-
nate people was, he believed, equally
barren. The whole of this transaction lhe
viewed as a stain and disgrace on the cha-
racter of the British government. It was
so considered by foreign nations, and
by the great body of the community
here. All that could be done then was,
to make a proper recompense in a pecu-
niary way to these people. If the valua-
tion had been too low, or if any impedi-
ment had taken place in adjusting the
settlement; in the one case, the valuation
ought to be revised, in the other, that
which was due to those people should be
promptly paid.
Mr. Goulburn denied that the Parguin-
otes were not paid the whole sum pro-
mised them.
Mr. Hume said, he rested on the pro-
clamation of the governor of the 19th of
June, stating that 113,0001. only should be
paid.
Mr. Goulburn said, that that circum-
stance admitted of an explanation.
Lord J. Russell, in reply, said, that
as the inhabitants of Parga had sur-
rendered themselves on the understanding
that they should follow the fate of the
Ionian isles, he still thought faith had not
been kept with them. If the great pow-
ers at the congress of Vienna had acted as
they professed, on the principle of restitu-
tion, he should have been satisfied.
Venice would then have been restored,
and Parga would have been put under the
I1


Cotton Weavers. [116
protection of Venice. But they had des-
troyed Venice, they had destroyed Parga;
they had divided Saxony and destroyed
Genoa. So much was their profession of
a return to the ancient state of things at-
tended to.
The motion was agreed to.
Mr. Mlaxwell presented a petition from
Benjamin Wills, honorary secretary to the
provisional committee for the encourage-
ment of industry, praying that parliament
would take some steps to provide the peo-
ple with proper employment, and thus pre-
vent them from falling into that state of de-
gradation which must inevitably ensue, if
they were not able, by their labour, to
support themselves.

COTTON-WEAVERS.] Mr. Maxwell,
in rising to move for a select committee to
inquire imto the nature of the distress by
which the Cotton Weavers were affected,
and to consider whether there was any
practicable mode by which assistance could
be extended to them, felt it necessary to
make a few observations explanatory of
his reasons for bringing forward a partial
motion. When the whole community
were suffering, and the manufacturing dis-
tricts were plunged in such a state of
misery as was now presented-when indi-
viduals were unable to procure employ-
ment, and found it wholly impossible to
maintain themselves-ihe felt that he
should have grossly neglected his duty, if
lie had not before the close of the session
called the serious attention of government
to the distress that prevailed. If they
could not do away that distress altogether,
they might, perhaps, devise some means
by which it might be alleviated. The
table had been covered with statements,
both from the workpeople themselves,
and from the magistrates, detailing to
That House and to the government, the ex-
tent of the misery that prevailed. They
admitted that great irritation existed;
but they traced that irritation to the severe
privations to which the lower classes of
the community had unfortunately been
too long exposed. He was astonished
that ministers, who had extended relief to
particular individuals, and even to the
throne itself, should have overlooked
these frequent calls. The distress which
they had endeavoured to avert could not
for a moment be placed in competition
with that which he had described. When
a motion for a committee to consider the
state of the manufacturing population was







117] Cotton Weavers.
submitted to the House it was refused
and yet he conceived it might as well
have been acceded to since, if measures
were not devised for the relief of that po-
pulation, it would at least have shown
that parliament were ready to listen to
their complaints. They were told by mi-
nisters that no reform was required-that
they anxiously considered by what means
they could diminish the pressure ofdistress,
which weighed down the working classes;
but, in his opinion, the greatest proof that
could be adduced in favour of reform was
the constant refusal of inquiry. When 25
per cent had been added to the taxes, in
order to meet the interest of the national
debt-that offspring of the most wanton
and lavish expenditure that any country
had ever witnessed-ought they not to in-
quire whether some means might not be
discovered by which an addition might be
made to that industry on which those
grievous burdens were imposed? While
the master manufacturers, and other
classes of society, were rioting in every
species of luxury, the poor operative la-
bourer was placed in a situation degrading
to the character of the country. The
House ought to listen to their complaints,
and prove the fallacy of those arguments
which were founded on the general feel-
ing that parliament paid no attention to
the people. Let them look to the cotton
trade. They pursued it in vain. It was
receding from them, like an ignis fatuus.
It was growing less and less every hour.
Many individuals in that house treated cir-
cumstances of this kind with the utmost
coolness. They said it was no use to in-
terfere. Things must find their level.
That was as much as to declare, that if no
means at present appeared by which the
people could live in comfort, therefore
none should be sought for, and all should
be left to chance. Notwithstanding that
feeling, it might perhaps be shown to a
committee, that means did exist by
which the industry of the working classes
could be rendered efficient, not only to
support themselves, but to augment the
revenue of the country, or to produce
even a better effect-the diminution of
taxation, by spreading it over a larger sur-
face. For that reason it was that lhe
wished to obtain a select committee.
There was at present a portion of ma-
chinery which wholly escaped those bur-
dens that were imposed on machinery of a
different kind-that kind of machinery,
one-half of which consisted of animal life.


JUNE 29, 1820. [118
There was a machine called a power-
loom," which machine, even now, as well
as during the war, was met in competition
by the simple loom of the individual
weaver; but with this great advantage-
that all the goods which the power-loom
produced were exempt from the draw-
back necessarily created by the consump-
tion of those articles on which the weaver
was compelled to exist, and on which he
paid a heavy rate of taxation. As it was
rather an abstract question how far the
two species of machinery should be placed
on a level, he wished to have a committee
to investigate it; and to consider whether
the capital of the poor man, which con-
sisted in the labour of his two hands,
must bear the burden of taxation, since
those articles, without which he could
not exist, were taxed; while the large
capital of the wealthy manufacturer,
which he invested in a machine, was suf-
fered to escape any contribution to the
revenue. He did not wish to do away ma-
chinery, from which incalculable benefits
had been derived; but he wished to see
whether the advantages which had been
produced by it did not arise in a great de-
gree from its being exempted from the
consumption of articles which the poor
weaver was obliged to use, and on which
heavy taxes were laid. It was a matter of
serious consideration whether capital,
shut up in machinery, should be useless to
the revenue-when, if it were not so shut
up, it would, according to the laws of
nature, be expended in animal labour.
There was another point well worthy of
consideration-lie meant the laws relating
to combination amongst the working
classes. The wealthy part of the trading
community possessed the means of com-
bining, to an immeasureable extent, for the
purpose of depressing the wages of the
labourer, while the operative manufacturer
was liable to punishment if he attempted
to raise them. There should certainly be
no distinction of that kind between the
wealthy and the indigent. Another point
to be considered was whether some means
ought not to be taken, by way of experi-
ment, to try the practicability of removing
some few of the working classes from
avocations by the pursuit of which they
could not obtain subsistence, and placing
them in other situations where their in-
dustry might be useful and productive.
When, however, individuals brought for-
ward plans of this nature, they were gene-
rally refused a committee to investigate







119] HOUSE OF COMMONS,


them. They were laughed at, and treated ministers were responsible for the security
as people of feeling hearts, but of feeble of the state, but it would have been far
understanding. This, he thought, was a more agreeable to him if this sum had
very poor recompence for those who de. been applied to the relief of the distressed
voted their time to such praiseworthy -if that House and his majesty's govern-
objects. Sir John Sinclair, Roweroft, ment had manifested a deep feeling for
Owen, and Wills, were not perhaps the the distresses of the poor. Subscriptions
first names amongst the aristocracy of the had been raised for Germans and Portu-
country; but they had considered how guese; relief had been given to French
the situation of the people could be refugees and American loyalists; money
ameliorated, and were therefore entitled to had been lavished to embellish Henry the
respect. They wished to rescue the peo- Seventh's chapel, which had better be
pie from that situation which was likely to left in the rust of antiquity than be
make them bad subjects, and to sink them covered with modern garnish; money had
below the level of human nature. The been even voted for improving the city of
endeavour that had been so long persisted Dublin, Those expenses struck him, not
in to undersell other markets had no other as improper, but as injudicious. He sub-
effect but to overwhelm every class of the mitted to the right hon. gentleman oppo-
community by a weight' of poor's-rates. site, if his ingenuity in finding new sub-
Of the different plans which he had seen- jects of taxation was not exhausted, whe-
and he had probably seen and examined other it was not possible to tax foreign
more than the right hon. gentleman, be- cooks, French lacqueys, and Swiss por-
cause his feelings bad been more excited ters, for it appeared from the Alien-bill
on the subject-he thought the applica- that they were very numerous in this
tion of public money for providing lands country. Another gross anomaly was,
to those who could obtain no employment that a great number who possessed much
at their looms one of the best. If exche- property in this country, lived out of the
quer-bills were so applied, instead of ex- country and thus injured the industry and
pending public money on canals, along revenue of the country. Others who had
which there was no commerce to pass, or not much property lived in other coun-
on harbours frequented by no ships, the tries, and drew pensions from this country,
benefit would be greater and more obvious, as half-pay officers. Their income would
Ample security could be given to govern- not support them so well in this country,
ment by mortgage on the lands. The la- and it might be impolitic to prevent them
bourers thus employed would pay 10 or from leaving it ; but relief to severe dis-
12 per cent; and they would improve the tress ought to be sought by risking even
revenue by the cpnsumption ofexciseable an impolitic measure. His object in
articles ; they would at the same time re- making these observations was to submit
lieve other labourers at the looms, by in- to the attention of parliament sentiments
creasingtheiremployment,andraisingthem which were circulated, canvassed, and felt
from their present miserable and degraded elsewhere, especially in that part of the
level. He should reserve his opinions on country from which he came. If he
other points-opinions which were there- should not succeed in obtaining a com-
suit of much attention and time for the ihittee, lie should at least have given mi-
committee, who could more deliberately nisters an opportunity of explaining con-
consider the subject. He should now duct which appeared unintelligible. He
simply implore the House to consider respected ministers, and some of them lie
how far their conduct had been calculated had the honour of calling his friends; but
to allay the unhappy spirit which was la- while he had a seat in that House he
'mented in the speech from the throne. should tell them freely what he thought
It appeared to him doubtful, whether it of their conduct. Was it consistent with
was economical or wise to rear barracks, the harmony of the universe that one
raise additional troops, fill up battalions, class of men should want the necessaries
call forth volunteers and yeomanry corps of life, while another abounded in every
at an enormous expense, as a means of luxury and superfluity ? If the right hon.
allaying the spirit caused by distress. gentleman believed in the existence of a
Not less than400,0001. had been expended Supreme Bejng wise, powerful, and bene-
in this manner last year, as a reply to the volent-if he had any feeling of humanity
cry of hunger and distress. He was not -if he possessed any part of the spirit of
finding fault with this expenditure, for that religion which we all professed, he


Cotton Weavers.


[lio







121] Cotton Weavers. JUNe 29, 1820. [128
would ask whether it was consistent with posed upon foreign servants and ab-
his ideas of the grand attributes of the sentees, le was at a loss to imagine-
Supreme Being that his moral govern- With respect to the absentees, many,
ment of the world should suffer one man lie believed the great majority of them,
4to sink below the state for which all men were obliged to resort to other coun-
had been intended, and another to rise tries for cheap living, in consequence
higher almost than to be susceptible of of the depression of their circumstances;
human feeling or rational enjoyment? and would the hon. member seriously
There was no man but must feel a lively press for an aggravation of those circum-
anxiety to know how long the institutions stances by tile imposition of an additional
of this country were to remain; it was not to tax ? Would parliament consent to such
be disguised, that the people in all parts of injustice, or, lie would say to such inhu-
Europe looked towards America and her manity and impolicy ? The lion. member
institutions with sympathy, whilst they deprecated luxury, for which he (Mr. R.)
felt nothing but disgust at the expenses of was certainly no advocate, as a moral
their own governments. He did not say good ; but he apprehended it might easily
that those expenses had not become ne- be shown in various ways, such as the
cessary, but it was surely alarming to see number of servants, or the general amount
taxation arrive at such an extent as to en- of expense among the rich, that the aban-
danger the existence of our institutions donment of luxury would tend rather to
both in church and state. If it should aggravate than to relieve the distress of
be thought that these were strong ob- the labouring classes. In what the hon.
servations, he answered that he made member had advanced on the means of
them in order to show what feelings he relieving the distress of the manufacturer,
entertained in common with multitudes of he professed to echo the language of his
others throughout the country. He was constituents, and this furnished an addi-
in a very different situation of life from tional argument against the proposed
many who entertained those views and his committee, the appointment of which
opinions might therefore be thought of would only serve to propagate delusion,
less importance; but he implored his ma- without leading to any practical good, or
jesty's ministers to consider what effect even to any temporary palliative for the
such sentiments must have upon those evils complained of. At all events, from
who were in the very extremity of dis- the variety of matter which the hon.
tress, and to whom it was little matter member proposed to submit to the com-
whether they were to live or die. The mittce, in conjunction with his abstract
lion. gentleman concluded by moving, ideas, he could hardly suppose it would
That a Select Committee be appointed be thought possible, at this period of the
to inquire into the means of relieving the session, to make any progress in such a
Cotton Weavers, which may be attempted complicated investigation. On those
without injury to the community." grounds, then, he felt it his duty to move
Mr. Robinson observed, that it was to- the previous question.
lerably well known he was no advocate for Mr. Ricardo said, that he conceived
parliamentary reform and he was the less so, the duty of government to be, to give the
because he was unwilling to convert the greatest possible development to industry.
House into a college of disputants. But his This they could do only by removing the
lion. friend seemed disposed, from the va- obstacles which had been created. He
riety of subjects to which he had adverted, complained therefore of government on
to render the committee he proposed quite very different grounds -from the lion.
an arena for disputation, and the very mover, for his complaint was against the
first point which he would have this com- restrictions on trade, and other obstacles
mittee discuss was an abstract idea. of that description, which opposed the de-
That a committee might be useful and velopment of industry. The recommend-
essential in collecting and arranging facts nations of the hon. mover were inconsistent
and information he was ready to admit, but with the contrastbetween one class and an-
this was, he believed, the first time it was other. If government interfered, they
proposed to refer to a committee the dis- would do mischief and no good. They had
cussion of an abstract idea. The lion. already interfered, and done mischief by the
member's professed object was, to benefit poorlaws. The principles ofthehon. mover
the cotton manufacturers, but how that would likewise violate the sacredness of
was to be done by such taxes as be pro- property, which constituted the great se-
curity of society.







123] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Mr. Lockhart opposed the motion, con-
ceiving that its adoption would only serve
to hold out false hopes, which might pro-
bably induce the agriculturists and other
classes of the people whose distress was
quite equal to that of those for whom the
lon. mover was an advocate, to make si-
milar applications to that House. He
particularly deprecated the hon. member's
proposition to tax absentees, for such a
tax would most probably urge those to
take away their capitals from this country
who at present only spent their incomes
in (other nations, and the capital once
taken away was by no means likely to re-
turn. He disagreed with the plans of
spade-husbandry, and others, which had
been proposed, because they all appeared
on a nearer view to be futile. The
House at any rate could not grant a
committee until some of those plans
should be found effectual, by the experi-
ence of people out of doors. Besides, if
the House granted a committee to the
cotton weavers, the agricultural labourers,
and almost all others, would have an
equally good claim to consideration, and
would scarcely fail to urge it. Time alone
and patience, which he doubted not the
people would show, could care the diffi.
culties under which they laboured.
Mr. Maxwell, after a short reply, con-
sented to withdraw his motion until the
next session. The motion was accord-
ingly withdrawn.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, June 30.
METROPOLIS TURNPIKE ROADS BILL.]
Mr. Sumner presented petitions from cer-
tain Trustees of Roads in Kent and
Surrey against the Metropolis Roads bill.
The hon. member hoped that the bill
would be read a second time, printed,
,and allowed to stand over to next session.
Mr. Davies Gilbert, in alluding to the
matter of the petitions took occasion to
offer a few remarks upon the subject of
turnpike-roads generally. Every lion.
gentleman must be aware of the national
importance of a good and perfect system
for the regulation and management of
roads. When he mentioned that, in the
instance now more immediately before
the House, an extent of no less than
136,000 acres was appropriated entirely
for public roads, they would at once see how
highly desirable it was that their construc-
tion and arrangement should be con-


Provision for the Royal Family. [124
ducted upon the most scientific principles,
whether they considered the surface
which was so to be prepared, or the im-
mense expense of its preparation. Up-
wards of 1,500,000/. were annually col-
lected for the repairs of turnpike-roads,
by the trusts; and about 1,500,0001.
more from the towns and villages of the
country; in all 3,000,0001. It was about
100 years ago since the present system
of turnpike-roads was first introduced;
and the improvement in consequence was
one which was perfectly marvellous.
That system was founded on the equitable
principle of making those who most used
the roads pay for their repairs. The lion.
gentleman observed, that the roads round
London, as every one must have re-
marked, were, from the inefficiency of
the small trusts for their proper manage.
ment, the very worst in the kingdom. It
was his wish to see the roads altogether
put under the direction and management
of certain commissioners [here he read
some of those names which he intended
to propose] ; and lie meant at the earliest
possible period of the next session to bring
in a general highway act of that nature.
He entirely disclaimed any aspersions
upon the character of those who held the
small trusts; and alluded only to the con-
traction of their means.
Sir M. W. Rlidley wished to know, whe-
ther the committee intended to propose
any remedy of the grievance which was
felt in the renewal of turnpike trusts,
even for a limited period. The expense
of such a proceeding amounted at present
to 1121. in that House, and when the bill
got into an office belonging to another
place, the applicants were obliged to
make the clauses of a certain length-he
would leave it to the House to judge for
what purpose [Hear !]. If no measure
of the kind was proposed by the commit-
tee, he would introduce a motion on the
subject early in the next session.
Ordered to lie on the table.

KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING A PRO-
VISION FOR THE ROYAL FAMILY.]
Lord Castlereagh presented the following
Message from the King:
GEORGE R.
The King acquaints the House of
Commons, that a part of the provision
made by parliament for certain branches
of his majesty's royal family, has ceased
in consequence of the demise of his late
majesty, and recommends to his faithful







JUNE 30, 1820. L[2(


Commons, to take the necessary measures
to enable his majesty to grant to his royal
brothers and sisters such annuities for
their respective lives, as may be necessary
to make their several allowances equal to
the income which they enjoyed at the
time of the demise of his late majesty.
G. It."
Ordered to be considered in a commit-
tee on Monday.

IRISH COURT OF CHANCERY BILL.]
On the order of the day for the committal
of this bill,
Sir J. Newport said, he meant to move
a clause in this bill, which lie conceived
of great importance. It was one which
would prevent Irish masters in Chancery
from sitting in parliament, while they
held such office. The duties of a master
in chancery in Ireland were such, that if
in parliament, either the one or the other
must be neglected [Hear!]. The public
duties which devolved on a master in
chancery, ought not to be neglected to
favour the ambitious views of any indivi-
dual. The right lion. baronet proceeded
to quote various authorities, among others,
the lord chancellor of Ireland and the
master of the rolls, in support of his
statement, that the public business of his
office required every moment which an
Irish master in chancery could by possi-
bility devote to it. One master in chan-
cery had stated, that the fees of his office
had increased in the proportion of five
and a half to one. But being asked whe-
ther there was a proportionate increase of
business ? he answered "* Yes, where I
was formerly employed for one hour, I
am now employed four or five." The
lord chancellor was of opinion, that all
the witnesses in matters going before
masters in chancery, ought to be ex-
amined, if it could be done without in-
jury to public business, by the masters
themselves, but this being found impos-
sible, the examination devolved on other
persons. He would add another piece of
evidence which he held to be conclusive.
On the examination of Mr. Ellis himself
the following question was put to him:-
" Can you state the particular time the
duties of your office occupy ?" Answer-
" The duties of my office require a regular
attendance for ten months in the year;
and there is to be performed more or less
business every day in the year, if attended
to." Now then this officer declared that
the duties of his office, if attended to,


would take up all his time; and it was
clear that the faithful performance of
those duties was incompatible with his at-
tendance in that House as a representative.
He thought the evidence was quite con-
clusive on the point; and he would under
those circumstances, move That it be an
Instruction to the committee, that they
have power to receive a clause, providing
against any master in the chancery of Ire-
landi beig elected into, or sitting or
voting in the House of Commons so long
as he shall hold such office."
Lord Castlereagh said, he entirely con-
curred with the right hon. baronet in his
conclusion. If the office of master in
chancery was not a judicial office, it yet
so nearly pertained to a judicial office,
that any time devoted to other avocations,
to the injury of the business of suitors,
would operate as an infraction of the duty
of that office. The grounds on which a
master of chancery in England sat in that
House were different from those on which
an Irish master in chancery could sit there.
An English master in chancery might sit
in that House without any inconvenience
to suitors, and without the neglect of the
duties of his office. He had no objection
whatever, therefore, to the general prin-
ciple laid down ; but he understood that
an election was now pending for the city
of Dublin, in which a master in chancery
was one of the candidate., and he thought
that the clause proposed ought not to
operate as an ex post jacto law. He how-
ever felt that it ought to operate against
any person holding that office from being
hereafter elected.
Sir John Newport said, that if it was
manifest that the duties of a master in
chancery were incompatible with his at-
tendance as a member of parliament, that
officer ought not to be allowed to hold a
seat in that House. Could any man
doubt but that by his attendance in that
House the duties of his office would be
neglected ? That officer was bound to at-
tend ten months in the year in Dublin ; he
had sworn that it was necessary so to at-
tend. Would any member attempt (if lie
took his seat in that House) to propose
an address to the Crown to remove him ?
He saw no reason why the legislature in
this instance should forego giving that
protection to the suitors which they were
clearly entitled to ; he saw no reason why,
in compliment to the officer in question,
the business of the Court of Chancery
should be delayed, or the suitors of that


Irish Court of A memry B~ill.







127] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
court injured. In the event of the elec-
tion of the officer in question, previous
to the passing of the bill before the
House, he might if he thought fit resign
an office, the duties of which he could no
longer discharge.
Mr. Shaw said, that the clause pro-
posed would operate as a great hardship
on Mr. Ellis, who was at present a candi-
date for Dublin. The election would
possibly be over before he could receive
any information as to the proposed law.
The hardship would be not merely on Mr.
Ellis, but on the citizens of Dublin. The
present contest was one of the most acri-
monious and violent that had been re-
membered for a long time in that city.
There was more of party spirit and per-
sonal hostility displayed than had been
exhibited on any late contest. It would
be a great misfortune to the electors if,
after closing a contention of that kind,
they should be driven to a new contest,
which would possibly be carried on in
the same way. Mr. Ellis, when he of-
fered himself to the electors, had no no-
tice of the clause now proposed; he
thought, therefore, that lie ought to be
exempted.
Mr. Abercromb.y begged to call the at-
tention of the House to the subject upon
which they were about to legislate. It
had nothing to do with the Dublin elec-
tion, but was in plain terms whether or no
parliament would continue to afford suitors
in the Irish Court of Chancery that pro-
tection to which the law had entitled
them. Nobody had ventured to state
that the office of a master in chancery
and a member of parliament were com-
patible. The very gentleman whose case
was supposed to be involved in the pre-
sent consideration had himself given con-
clusive testimony upon that point. He
had declared that the business of his office
required his full attendance for ten months
in the year. Could any man after such a
declaration, and with a consciousness of
the importance of the duties of such an
office, require an exception to be made
in favour of a gentleman who had himself
shown the impossibility of making it with
any sense ofjustice ? The hon. gentleman
opposite had asked the House, on behalf
of the citizens of Dublin, not to accede
to this clause. If lie asked that on behalf
of the citizens of Dublin, he (Mr. Aber-
cromby) would ask for the clause on be-
half of the whole people of' Ireland, who,
if it did not pass, would be deprived of


Irish Court of Chancery Bill.


[128


the performance of those duties which
they had a right to require from a public
officer. Were the people to be deprived
of the benefit of having indispensable du-
ties performed, merely because Mr. Ellis
wished to gratify his ambition ? To pass
the clause would entail no individual hard-
ship; for no master in chancery had been
a member of parliament since the Union.
As to the ex post facto operation com-
plained of, he must say, that he thought
the complaint a little out of place; for
this bill was not now for the first time
brought forward; it was a measure long
in contemplation for the regulation of the
Court of Chancery in Ireland, and this
was the first time when his right hon.
friend could have introduced the clause,
which was now complained of as if it had
been prematurely framed to meet a par-
ticular occasion. It would be a derelic-
tion of their duty if the House did not
agree to this clause.
Sir M. W. Ridley could not help re-
marking upon the observation that this
clause, if passed, would be productive of
great inconvenience to the citizens of
Dublin, by exposing them to a repetition
of an election contest. To this he would
answer, that there was no necessity what-
ever of their being so exposed; for if the
election was concluded in favour of the
gentleman alluded to, he could take his
seat, and obviate all the inconveniences by
the resignation of his office as master in
chancery. To give him the option was
no hardship upon him ; he could either re-
tain the seat or the office; he could not
expect that he or any other public officer
would be permitted to retain a situation
the duties of which he could no longer
perform.
Mr. Fowell Buxton begged to know
from the noble lord, before he gave his
vote, whether, if Mr. Ellis should be
elected, the noble lord would advise his
majesty to dismiss him from his office, as
lie had declared that it was incompetent
for that officer at once to discharge the
duties of his office and to sit in that
House ?
Mr. Canning said, he understood his
noble friend to say, that the instruction
before the House ought not to have the
effect of influencing the election now
pending. If Mr. Ellis were elected, the
effect of the instruction might be to nega-
tive the return. His noble friend did not
say that a master in chancery should not
be incompetent to sit or vote in parliament.







JUNE ':0, 1820S. [ 130


Mr. Ellis might go through the election,
and if he succeeded, it would be fair to
leave him the option of resigning his office;
but, at all events, the election should be
considered good.
Sir J. Newport said, that the object of
the clause was to prevent any person from
being capable of sitting or voting in parlia-
ment so long as he continued to hold the
office of master in chancery.
Mr. Canning said, that in that case
there was no difference of opinion.
Sir J. Newport said, that the officer in
question would not be allowed to sit or
vote so long as he continued to hold his
office.
Mr. Canning.-But the election will be
good.
Sir George Hill said, that the effect of
the instruction would be, to disqualify a
gentleman from sitting in parliament, with-
out any notice having been given to him
of such a measure, and without any dis-
qualifying law having previously existed.
The object of the instruction, as explained
by the right hon. baronet, was, to prevent
Mr. Ellis from sitting or voting in that
House [Cries of No, no!]. If he were
wrong, he could be corrected, but he
understood the resolution went to dis-
qualify Mr. Ellis to sit or vote in that
House, unless he gave up his office [Hear,
hear!]. He would say that this was the
first time pending an election of great ex-
pectation, that a measure was proposed in
parliament to conclude that election.
Was it the intention to dismiss Mr. Ellis,
and to substitute Mr. Grattan in his place ?
Mr. Ellis was qualified in all respects to
sit in that House. Extraordinary interest
was excited at the election. Would the
House disqualify an individual who
might receive the favour of the citizens of
Dublin ? He considered such an act an
outrage on the constitution, on fairness,
and on candour.
Sir James Mackintosh said, he was at a
loss to think how gentlemen could recon-
cile to any respect for the constitution-
to fairness-to candour, or to common
sense, the idea of enabling a man to
occupy two places, which by his own
confession, were absolutely incompatible.
It was said that parliament had not given
notice to the learned gentleman of the
present measure; true, but he had given
notice to the parliament that he could not
possibly sit in that House without neglect-
ing his duties. The right hon. baronet had
said that there was a novelty about the
VOL. II.


measure. Yes, there was a novelty, in
the first place, of disqualifying the present
officer by his own testimony ; the evidence
out of his own mouth proving his incompe-
tency. In the second place, it was a
novelty to see the friends of that gentle-
man maintain his office against his testi-
mony. Those friends impeached his tes-
timony in order to preserve his office. If
his evidence was true, if it was true that
the duties of his office must necessarily de-
tain him in Dublin ten months out of the
year, would the House endure the idea of
permitting a person to sit amongst them
holding a judicial office, the duties of
which, if they believed his oath, required
ten months of his attendance in Ireland in
each year. The right hon. baronet had
used very hard words. He (sir James)
had another taste-lie would rather use
hard arguments and soft words. The
right lion. baronet had talked a great deal
about the constitution. This was an ex-
traordinary appeal, considering the line of
argument he had taken. He had talked of
the election as being interesting to the pub-
lic. But what did he (sir James) know
of the interest, the violence, or the
feuds of any party in Dublin-what did he
care about them ? Was any one of them
prepared, in order to satisfy any party in
that country, to establish by his vote so
shameful, or rather so shameless a princi-
ple? Would any one call upon parlia-
ment to permit a gentleman to sit in that
House, whilst the most pressing, and he
would say the most sacred duties of so-
ciety disqualified him? It would be im-
possible, even if all the passion and all the
spirit of an Irish election found its way into
that House, that any party or any faction
could so thwart its proceedings, or darken
its views. He did not wish to speak
harshly, but this he would say, that so ab-
surd, and so monstrous, and so unconstitu-
tional an exemption, could not possibly be
tolerated in that assembly.
Lord Castlercagh observed, that he un-
derstood there was but one opinion in the
House, either as to the incompatibility of
the two situations of master of chancery in
Ireland and member of parliament, or as
to the impropriety of disturbing an elec-
tion now in progress. All that was desired
was, that the individual now a candidate
for the city of Dublin should be at liberty,
if elected, to resign his office.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer sug-
gested, that the object of the clause would
be more precisely marked if the words of
K


frishr Court of Chancery BUill.







V!t] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
instruction to the committee were con-
fined to the sitting and voting" of a
person holding the office of a master in
chancery in Ireland.
Mr. Calcraft thought that, although the
right hon. gentleman's amendment might
meet the circumstances of the case imme-
diately in view, it would not provide a suf-
ficient regulation for all future cases, in
which the office in question was, to disqua-
lify in the first instance.
Mr. Wynn also observed, that the pend-
ing election would probably have termi-
nated before notice was received in Dublin
of the present resolution of the House.
It should therefore, be made applicable to
future cases.
The instruction was agreed to, and the
House went into the committee.-On sir
John Newport's proposing a clause to
prevent any individual from being elected
a member of parliament so long as he filled
the office of master in chancery,
Colonel Barry opposed it, because it ap-
peared to him to be levelled at an indivi-
dual. The right hon, baronet had thought
proper, at the present moment, when it
was probable the individual alluded to was
actually a member oftlhe House, to intro-
duce a clause personally affecting that
gentleman. He did not complain of the
principle of the clause, but he thought
that an ex-post ficto regulation ought
not to be admitted. Ifagreed to, it would
stamp disgrace on the proceedings of the
House ; and, though he might stand alone,
he would divide the committee on it.
Sir J. Newport defended the clause.
Mr. Ellis knew that lie could not perform
the double duties of master in chancery
and member of parliament ; why, there-
fore, did lie set up for the representa-
tion of the city of Dublin ? The present
clause was forced upon them by his own
act.
Mr. Daly observed, that the bill which
had passed this House last year, and was
thrown out in the Lords, was without
any such clause as that now proposed.
This circumstance proved that it was
an ex-postfasto law to affect Mr. Ellis.
He said this without any personal feeling
in Mr. Ellis's favour, for he would, with
all his heart, go over to Dublin to vote
for Mr. Grattan.
Ir. Phillimore thought it would be
a gross injustice to the suitors in chan-
cery, if the same individual were allow-
ed to act as master and member of
parliament. The duties of a master in


Irish Court Jf/ Cihancern B1ill.


chancery and of a member of that House
were totally incompatible. What, then,
did Ihe House resolve ? They resolved
that the member for Dublin should have
the option of choosing the one situation
or the other ; than which nothing could
be more just.
Dr. Lushington said, that Mr. Ellis
being a master in chancery, had taken
an oath faithfully to perform the duties
of his office, to do which, according to
his own evidence, it was necessary that
he should be in Dublin during ten
months in the year. They should not,
by allowing Mr. Ellis to retain the two
situations, put him under the tempta-
tion of neglecting the duty of the one
or the other, which no honourable man
would wish to be subjected to. Be-
sides, were they to forget the public in
this case? A master in chancery had
important duties to perform ; the ma-
nagement of bankrupts' affairs, &c. which
required attendance from day to day ;
so that every hour he was absent in
England was injurious, and might be
ruinous to the suitors. If no such bill
was before the House, he thought one
should have been introduced to pro-
tect the chancery suitors of Ireland.
Mr. Nolan considered the clause an
ex post fact law, and an act of injus-
tice of the deepest dye. Though Mr.
Ellis had heavy duties to perform, his
friends might consent to do them for
him during his absence; besides, tih
months during which he was occupied
might not be the time that parliament
was sitting. It would hardly be tolerated,
if this gentleman was in parliament, that
a bill should be brought in to exclude
him; yet he probably was by this time
a member, so that the only difference was
(and honourable gentlemen might make
the most of it) that he was absent.
Mr. 7I. Martin meant to vote for the
clause, which did not disqualify this gen-
tleman from sitting in the House of Com-
mons, if that were his wish. According
to his oath, he could not fulfil the duties
of the two situations; and, therefore, it
was necessary that one of them should be
given up. If a precedent were allowed in
this case, the four other masters might
also be returned to serve in parli-;nent,
and thus the whole business of the court
of chancery would be stopped.
Mr. Williams said, if this clause went
to exclude Mr. Ellis from the court of
chancery, or from the House of Com-


[132









mons, it would be unjust ; but as it clause and those general measures of dis-
gave him his option to choose the one or qualification which had been passed from
the other situation, it was perfectly equit- an apprehension of some future possible
able. Though absent in person, Mr. inconvenience. In those cases there
Ellis was present, by his own testimony ; could be no necessity to affect the actual
and that testimony showed, that the two holders of seat<. But here the case
situations were wholly incompatible. If was the reverse : it was not future incon-
this clause were not agreed to, ministers venience that was guarded against, but
themselves ought to say to Mr. Ellis, parliament had presented to it a case in
" the two situations are incompatible- which the holder of an office had declared
you cannot hold them both ; you must that it was impossible that he could per-
therefore make your election for one of form the duties of that office if he were a
them." member of parliament, As to the allega-
Colonel Barry observed, that all the tion that the other masters might do the
arguments had been addressed to the prin- duty for Mr. Ellis, the argument of the
ciple of the clause, and nothing had been lon. member for Galway could not be re-
said as to its being an ex post facto plied to ; and, if there was one master in
proceeding. He admitted that it was chancery more than was necessary, the
improper to unite the two situations ; House should immediately set about the
but he objected to the time when the work of reduction.
measure was introduced. He wonder- Mr. Wrottesle said, a seat in parlia-
ed that the right hon. baronet had not ment was a trust, not an office. It was,
thought of the incompatibility of the therefore, a que-tion between Mr. Ellis
two situations in the last session of and his constituents, because the lord
parliament. He had, however, only chancellor of Ireland would see that busi-
found it out now, when Mr. Ellis ei- ness of Mr. Ellis's office was attended
other was, or was likely to be, one of to. If the House took upon it to legislate
the members for Dublin. It should be in the case of every person returned to the
recollected, that Mr. Ellis had bought flouse who night not be able to attend,
his office at a time when it was legally they would be olii'ed in consistency to
saleable for 10,0001. exclude many of their members who were
Sir J. Newport said, the gentleman generals in the army, and had coRn-
alluded to had purchased the ohiice, niands abroad, for instance at the Cape
under a special notification from lord and in India, so that they could not at-
chancellor Ponsonby, who felt the im- tend at all.
propriety of the purchase or sale of Mr. Baring said, the learned gentle-
such situations, that it was intended to men seemed to have forgotten that the
alter the system. With respect to the office in question was one of permanent
charge alleged against him for introduc- duty ; whereas the avocations of the
ing this provision now, he could only army and navy weie not so. Officers
say, that it had all along been his in- were frequently enabled to attend to
tention to propose it, whenever the bill their duties in parliament, without inter-
arrived at its present stage. If tle fearing with prof'c-sional matters; but
House felt it necessary to except Mr. Mr. Ellis's employment required atten-
Ellis from the operation of the clause, tion from day to d;ay. With respect to
lie hoped government would provide its being a mere question between his
for him in some manner, so as to ena- constituents and himself, lie differed en-
ble him to give up the situation of tirely from the learned gentleman. It
master in chancery, that the suitors did not follow, bec;nu:e his constituents
might not be injured by his absence. were satisfied, that lhat House should
Mr. Martin said, that after Home also be satisfied ; because there were im-
Tooke had been elected a member of that portant duties to be performed by that
House, a bill had been passed which dis- House which must be neglected if an in-
qualified him. dividual resided in a distant part of the
Mr. Nolan observed, that none of country.
the great disqualification acts were allow- Sir J. Yorke supported the clause.
ed to operate until the ensuing session of Lord Palmerston said, that the argu-
parliament. meant of Mr. Wrottesley haid not been
Sir J. Mackintosh said, a manifest dis- answered. There was no effectual dis-
ti-ction existed between the present tinction between a command in the arn.y


J U' E: 0, 1 S C () 13,1


Irishr Courl of Chan~cery Bill.







135] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Irish Court of Chancery Bill. [136
or navy and the office of Mr. Ellis, as far advising his majesty to comply with such
as attendance in parliament was concerned, an address.
Hitherto the House had proceeded on Mr. Abercromby supported the clause.
one principle of exclusion only, namely, The observations made on the other side,
that which was directed against the in- with regard to officers of the army and
fluence of the Crown. It was not on that navy holding seats in that House, had, in
principle that the admission of Mr. Ellis his view, no analogy to the present case;
was opposed. They had to consider for a seat in parliament was to such an
whether they would admit another officer but a secondary consideration,
principle of exclusion, namely, that a man while a master in chancery, in becoming
should not be elected to serve in parlia- a member of that House, was but too
ment when lie had other occupations which likely to make that his primary object,
might keep him absent. This principle through which, of course, his official busi-
might lead to an inconvenient extent, ness would be neglected.
which might incapacitate any man for Sir J. Newport assured the committee
any sort of public or private business, that he had no personal motive whatever on
Mr. M1. Fitzgerald maintained, that the thisoccasion,ashehadthegreatestpersonal
clause proposed by his right hon. friend respect for Mr. Ellis, and as he had men-
was not liable to any of the objections tioned to a friend of his, then in the House,
which applied to a retrospective or ex:post before the death of Mr. Grattan, that it
facto law with respect to Mr. Ellis, as it was his intention to move the insertion of
proposed only to enact a general principle, a clause of this nature in the bill under
from which it was in the power of that consideration.
gentleman to relieve himself if he should Mr. Foster objected to the proposed
think proper. By the evidence of Mr. attempt to defeat the wishes, and to inter-
Ellis himself, it appeared that a master fere with the franchises of the people of
in chancery was necessarily occupied in Dublin. He called upon the committee
the performance of his official duty for to recollect the precedent in the case of
ten months in the year, and even liable Horne Tooke, where the act excluding
to be called upon at times within the re- persons in holy orders from that House,
maining period. How, then, was it pos- specially provided for the exception of
sible for such an officer to perform his that gentleman during the existing par-
official duties and to attend to the business ligament, on the ground that it should not
of that House? be retrospective in its operation, although
Lord Castlerecgh said, that he was an that act was actually brought forward in
advocate for the principle of the clause, consequence of Mr. Tooke's election.
upon the ground that attendance in par- Mr. Macdonald observed, that Mr.
liament was incompatible with the duties Tooke had no option, as he could not
f an office which required almost perpe- divest himself of his orders, and that he
tual attention in Ireland. He was, in- had no duty to perform elsewhere, by the
deed, an advocate for the clause upon the neglect of which the public would suffer,
same ground that the judges were ex- while Mr. Ellis was in quite different cir-
cluded from that House, which was not cumstances, as he had a complete option.
because they were supposed dependent Mr. Foster remarked, that the object
upon the Crown, but because, from the then was, to force Mr. Ellis to give up his
pressure of their judicial engagements, office.
the two situations were incompatible. Mr. R. Smith said, that Mr. Ellis had,
Still he thought that this clause should by his own admission, such official busi-
not be retrospective with regard to any ness to discharge as rendered it impossible
mastersin chancery which might be elected for him to attend his duty as a member
previous to the passing of the act. But of that House. Therefore, should that
should the gentleman alluded to be re- gentleman be returned, an address to the
turned, it would, of course, be competent Crown ought to be voted for his removal
to any member of that House to move an from office, and if no other person would
address to the throne for his removal from make the motion, he should himself feel it
the office which he held in the court of his duty to do so.
chancery, and upon that address being Colonel Barry moved an amendment,
presented it would be difficult, he thought, to exempt from its operation any master
for any minister, with that gentleman's in chancery who might be elected previous
own evidence before him, to hesitate about to the passing of the act. The amend-







137] Linen Bounties.
ment was negatived without a division,
and the clause was agreed to. t

CRIMINAL LAWS.] Sir J. Mackintosh,
in rising to move the committal of the
Privately Stealing in Shops bill, said, he
should make no observations in the present
state of the measure, but reserve himself
for the committee, which, after the ad-
mission of the principle by the House,
was the proper place for the discussion of
any objections which might be made to
the several clauses. He hoped that any
objections which might be entertained to
any part of the bill, would be brought
forward in the committee, in order that
he might have a convenient opportunity
of answering them, and not be postponed
to any subsequent stage. Upon this, in-
deed, he was induced to calculate, as lie
had so often deferred the progress of the
bill, at the request and for the accommo-
dation of those gentlemen who were un-
derstood to entertain some doubts upon
the subject.
Mr. Chetwynd, after some observations
in favour of the bill, recommended the
adoption ofa clause, substituting a definite
punishment for that which this bill pro-
posed to repeal, namely, confinement for
some period not more than two years, or
less than six months.
Sir J. Mackintosh observed, that as this
bill had been three times before the
House, being twice carried in silence, and
once with a majority of two to one in his
favour, he could not be expected to offer
any thing new upon the subject; but he
felt it necessary to repeat, that nothing
could be farther from his intention, than
to cast the slightest imputation upon the
judges, because he felt, from the conduct
of those exalted magistrates, that no im-
putation could fairly attach, nor did he
mean to take away from them any discre-
tion but that which they never exercised.
From the manner, then, in which the
judges generally exercised their discre-
tionary power, he could not think it ne-
cessary to prescribe the limits recom-
mended by his hon. friend.
Sir J. Yorke observed, that as the hon.
and learned gentleman avowedly took up
these measures in imitation of the exam-
ple of sir Samuel Romilly, he ought to
recollect the fate of that gentleman's pro-
positions in the other House, and not to
pursue a course on this occasion, which,
however creditable to his heart, did not
appear creditable to his head.


JUNE 30, 1820. [138
Sir J. Mackintosh felt persuaded, that
he adoption of his hon. friend's amend-
nent would not recommend this bill to a
nore gracious reception in the other
House of Parliament.
The amendment was not pressed. The
Capital Felonies Repeal bill was also com-
nitted, and ordered to be reported on
Monday. The committal of the Capital
Felonies Commutation of Punishment bill
was then proposed by sir J. Mackintosh,
who observed, that he meant to propose
the omission of three clauses, namely, that
with respect to fines and recoveries, also
that respecting marriage registers, certi-
ficates, and licences, as those offences ra-
ther belonged to the class of forgeries,
upon which he had a distinct measure to
submit to the consideration of the House;
also the clause relating to persons return-
ing from transportation who had been
sentenced for offences against the revenue.
The last clause he was induced to omit,
because, upon farther consideration, he
felt that there was no sufficient reason for
making a distinction between such per-
sons, and convicts returning for other
offences. But upon all the other clauses
he meant to take the sense of the com-
mittee.
After some discussion, in which the
attorney-general, Mr. Lockhart, Mr.
Chetwynd, Mr. Harbord, sir J. Roclfort,
Mr. Martin, sir J. Yorke, and the solici-
tor-general, participated, the various
clauses were agreed to, and the House
resumed.

LINEN BOUNTIES.] Mr. JMt/icrl
brought up the report on the linen boun-
ties acts, and moved that the resolutions
be read a second time.
Mr. Robinson argued against the policy
of making these bounties permanent. He
objected strongly to the second resolution
which recommended the imposition of a
duty of 28s. on foreign linen yarn.
Sir G. Hill regretted that this question
should have been agitated in the present
session.
Mr. Hume concurred in the view taken
by Mr. Robinson, and hoped his hon. friend
would withdraw the secondresolution. He
urged the propriety of allowing the same
drawback on ashes used in bleaching in
Scotland and England as was allowed in
Ireland.
Mr. Foster said, that the people of Ire-
land wished that those of England and
Scotland should be included in every thing







139] HOUSE OF LORDS,
in the way of advantage which they de-
rived, but it would be ingratitude to take
away the bounties on linen from Ireland.
If he were exclusively an Irishman, he
would say, treble the duties on yarn com-
ing into Ireland, for the country grew
more than it could manufacture. As to
the drawback on ashes, he did not think
it was sufficient, for formerly they were
imported into Ireland free of duty.
Mr. Huskisson said, that every principle
of justice required that the other parts of
the empire should be put on the same foot-
ing, as to bounties, with Ireland.
Mr. Ricardo considered bounties given
to Ireland in this way, as in the nature of
a tax on the people of this country, and
therefore he was generally opposed to such
measures.
The first resolution was agreed to. The
two other resolutions were negatived, and
a bill was ordered to be brought in,
founded on the first resolution.

MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.]
Dr. Phillimore brought up the report of'
the committee on theMarriageAct Amend-
ment bill. Dr. Lushington moved as an
amendment, that the report be recom-
mitted. Mr. Warren seconded the
amendment. Dr. Dodson and Mr. D.
Gilbert spoke in favour of the re-com-
mittal, and after a reply to their argu-
ments from Dr. Plillimore, the House
divided, when there appeared, For the re-
ception of the Report, 47; Against it,
23: Majority, 24. The report was then
received.

IOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, July 3.
FOREIGN TRADE.] The MIarquis of
Lansdowne brought up the report of the
committee on Foreign Trade. In moving
that it be laid on the table, he trusted their
lordships would excuse him if he detained
them sonie moments by a few observations
which he thought the more necessary to
be now made, as he did not mean to make
this report the subject of any other mo-
tion except that it be printed. He was
induced to adopt this course, not only
because any bill connected with the finan-
cial situation and revenues of the country
would come with more advantage to the
subject from the other House, but because
he thought it better that any measure of
this kind should originate with those who
possessed the best means ofgiving it effect


Foreign Trade.


[!40


and carrying it into execution. At the
same time that he abstained from pro-
posing any thing on this report, he should
very ill discharge his duty, if he did not
state, on the behalf of the other members
of the committee, that they were all anxious
that some measure should be founded on
the inquiry which had taken place. That
something should be done, their lordships
could not but feel to be due to the inter-
ests of all classes of the community-to
the manufacturing, as wc!l as the com-
mercial interests-to the interests of ship-
owners-to the interests of the colonists-
and lastly, though not least important,
to the interests of British consumers. All
the interests connected with foreign com-
merce complained of embarrassment and
difficulties, respecting the nature and ex-
tent of which their lordships would be
satisfied when they took the trouble to
examine the report. Some of the recom-
mendations which the committee had
thought fit to make were of a nature which
he believed would give rise to little or no
conflict of opinion. Such were the alter-
ations and arrangements respecting duties
which appeared necessary for giving con-
sistency. and effect to existing measures.
There were, however, facts connected
with the interests to which he had alluded,
on which difference would occur. There
were cases in which he felt it would be
impossible at this time to effect any con-
siderable alteration, however desirable,
without giving rise certainly to difference
of opinion, and probably to some dissatis-
faction. But he could not doubt that
their lordships would concur in adopting
such measures as should appear to them
calculated to promote the interests of the
public at large. In whatever was pro-
posed, full consideration was due to the
interests which might be affected; and
their lordships must concur in this-that
the interests of those persons whose capi-
tal had been embarked in trade within
these ten or twelve years ought not to be
overlooked. While the committee had
thought it right to lay down in their report
those great principles which he conceived
ought never to have been departed from,
they were at the same time desirous that
the means of returning to a right system
should be rendered as easy and convenient
as possible. To accomplish this purpose,
in as far as it could be forwarded by the
present inquiry, theirlordshipshad thought
fit to separate that part of the subject
which had been referred to the committee







139] HOUSE OF LORDS,
in the way of advantage which they de-
rived, but it would be ingratitude to take
away the bounties on linen from Ireland.
If he were exclusively an Irishman, he
would say, treble the duties on yarn com-
ing into Ireland, for the country grew
more than it could manufacture. As to
the drawback on ashes, he did not think
it was sufficient, for formerly they were
imported into Ireland free of duty.
Mr. Huskisson said, that every principle
of justice required that the other parts of
the empire should be put on the same foot-
ing, as to bounties, with Ireland.
Mr. Ricardo considered bounties given
to Ireland in this way, as in the nature of
a tax on the people of this country, and
therefore he was generally opposed to such
measures.
The first resolution was agreed to. The
two other resolutions were negatived, and
a bill was ordered to be brought in,
founded on the first resolution.

MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.]
Dr. Phillimore brought up the report of'
the committee on theMarriageAct Amend-
ment bill. Dr. Lushington moved as an
amendment, that the report be recom-
mitted. Mr. Warren seconded the
amendment. Dr. Dodson and Mr. D.
Gilbert spoke in favour of the re-com-
mittal, and after a reply to their argu-
ments from Dr. Plillimore, the House
divided, when there appeared, For the re-
ception of the Report, 47; Against it,
23: Majority, 24. The report was then
received.

IOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, July 3.
FOREIGN TRADE.] The MIarquis of
Lansdowne brought up the report of the
committee on Foreign Trade. In moving
that it be laid on the table, he trusted their
lordships would excuse him if he detained
them sonie moments by a few observations
which he thought the more necessary to
be now made, as he did not mean to make
this report the subject of any other mo-
tion except that it be printed. He was
induced to adopt this course, not only
because any bill connected with the finan-
cial situation and revenues of the country
would come with more advantage to the
subject from the other House, but because
he thought it better that any measure of
this kind should originate with those who
possessed the best means ofgiving it effect


Foreign Trade.


[!40


and carrying it into execution. At the
same time that he abstained from pro-
posing any thing on this report, he should
very ill discharge his duty, if he did not
state, on the behalf of the other members
of the committee, that they were all anxious
that some measure should be founded on
the inquiry which had taken place. That
something should be done, their lordships
could not but feel to be due to the inter-
ests of all classes of the community-to
the manufacturing, as wc!l as the com-
mercial interests-to the interests of ship-
owners-to the interests of the colonists-
and lastly, though not least important,
to the interests of British consumers. All
the interests connected with foreign com-
merce complained of embarrassment and
difficulties, respecting the nature and ex-
tent of which their lordships would be
satisfied when they took the trouble to
examine the report. Some of the recom-
mendations which the committee had
thought fit to make were of a nature which
he believed would give rise to little or no
conflict of opinion. Such were the alter-
ations and arrangements respecting duties
which appeared necessary for giving con-
sistency. and effect to existing measures.
There were, however, facts connected
with the interests to which he had alluded,
on which difference would occur. There
were cases in which he felt it would be
impossible at this time to effect any con-
siderable alteration, however desirable,
without giving rise certainly to difference
of opinion, and probably to some dissatis-
faction. But he could not doubt that
their lordships would concur in adopting
such measures as should appear to them
calculated to promote the interests of the
public at large. In whatever was pro-
posed, full consideration was due to the
interests which might be affected; and
their lordships must concur in this-that
the interests of those persons whose capi-
tal had been embarked in trade within
these ten or twelve years ought not to be
overlooked. While the committee had
thought it right to lay down in their report
those great principles which he conceived
ought never to have been departed from,
they were at the same time desirous that
the means of returning to a right system
should be rendered as easy and convenient
as possible. To accomplish this purpose,
in as far as it could be forwarded by the
present inquiry, theirlordshipshad thought
fit to separate that part of the subject
which had been referred to the committee







1411 East India Company's Volunteers Bill.


from every other. The report was now
completed, and he hoped that no unne-
cessary delay would take place in coming
to the settlement of those important ques-
tions which remained to be adjusted. A
difficulty had been experienced in return-
ing from a course which had been resorted
to only for temporary purposes. But
though measures which ought to be aban-
doned could not be immediately relin-
quished on the change from war to peace,
nothing could be more unfounded than tlhe
opinion that no alteration could be made
in consequence of the restoration of peace,
He concluded by moving that the report
do lie on the table, and afterwards moved
that it be printed.
Lord Ellenborough expressed a hope
that some legislative measure should, if
possible, be brought in this session on some
of the objects recommended in the re-
port. It was impossible for any member
of the committee, who attended in his
place, not to feel the duty of urging this.
There were two points to the introduction
of a measure, to embracewhich lie thought
no objection could be made. They re-
lated to an alteration of the mode of levv-
ing the duties on timber. The first was a
recommendation to levy the duty on tim-
ber by the cubic contents of the foot; the
second was, to make the duty on timber
which had undergone any process of manu-
facture higher than on timber in the log.
In reference to the adoption of those en-
lightened principles which were recom-
mended by the committee, it was with
great satisfaction he could state his con-
viction that in some important instances
their introduction would be attended with
no inconvenience. It had, for example,
been ascertained bythe committee, thatBri-
tish ships were navigated more cheaply than
any other vessels in the world. No injury
therefore could arise to the shipping inter-
est from any alteration which it might be
thought fit to make in favour of foreign
trade. Those who had petitioned most
earnestly for the continuance of the pre-
sent system with respect to the duties on
timber, would therefore, if not benefited,
at least not be injured, by any alteration
which the legislature might think fit to
make on that subject.
The Report was ordered to be printed.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, July Q3.
LIMERICKELECTION.J Mr.Wodehouse


brought up the report of the committee
appointed to try the merits of the Lime-
rick election petition. It stated that the
hon. J. P. Vereker had not been duly
elected, and Mr. T. S. Rice ought to have
been returned. A resolution was sub-
joined, in which it was stated that Henry
d'Esterre, recorder of Limerick, having
been guilty before the committee of gross
prevarication, he had been placed in the
custody of the serjeant at arms. A se-
cond resolution enforced the propriety of
laying the minutes of evidence before the
House, in consequence of various acts of
the corporation brought to light during the
inquiry. On the motion of Mr. Wode-
house, it was ordered that Henry d'Esterre
be committed to Newgate, and that the
evidence be printed.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S VOLUNTEERS
BILL..] Mr. Canning gave notice of his
intention on a future day to strike out the
clause in tie bill relating to the payment
of the men. He suggested that any dis-
cussion would be more conveniently taken
on the third reading.
Mr. Bernal objected to the bill, as he
thought the volunteers to the number of
800 wholly needless.
Mr. Canning stated the nature of their
establishment under the auspices of the
East India company, as well as their pro-
bable duties in cases of necessity. He also
referred to certain pending discussions on
tile subject, and to the length of time dur-
ing which the corps had existed.
Mr. Hume expressed his regret that so
strong a disposition prevailed upon all oc-
casions by the civil power to call in the aid
of the military. This step had been taken
on Friday last within the city of London,
when, as far as he could learn, not the
slightest necessity existed. This was a
most dangerous practice; he hoped that
England would not be changed entirely,
but that the civil power now, as formerly,
would be paramount. On the occasion to
which he referred, a legally established
body had met for legal purposes, and yet
something like an attempt was made to
overawe it by the presence of a military
force. It was the duty of magistrates upon
all occasions, as far as possible, to avoid
calling in'the aid of the soldiers, and then
the civil power would be both obeyed and
respected.
Sir W. Curtis said, that this was the
first time he had heard that any troops had
been in the city on Friday last. He had


JUrLY. 1820. [142







143] HOUSE OF COMMONS,


King's Message-


gone through the city and had seen none, House. The votes were merely for a con-
and he believed that none had been there. tinuation of the allowances which had been
Mr. Hume added, that troops were made during the late reign to the brothers
stationed in Holborn, half of which was and sisters of his majesty, and the duke of
within and half without the limits of the Gloucester and the princess Sophia of
city. Gloucester, and to place those illustrious
Mr. Alderman Wood observed, that he personages in the same situation in which
felt called upon to set the House and the they stood previously to the demise of the
country right regarding the soldiery in the Crown. He had no hesitation in saying,
city. Certain it was that a considerable that under other circumstances than those
body oflife-guards had been called out on in which the country now found itself, he
Friday last, and perhaps their horses might have felt it his duty to call the at-
heads might be in the city, and their tails tension of the House to one or two of these
out ofit: one of them, fully armed, had allowances with a view to augmentation.
come to Guildhall for orders; and the The second resolution, which would be
lord mayor had avowed that the military for the allowance to the duke of Clarence,
were summoned by his orders. It was would call to mind, that his royal high-
not easy to see any necessity for such a ness was, with respect to that provision,
proceeding, since no breach of the peace in a situation inferior to that of his royal
had been committed or contemplated: the brother. He should not now enter into
meeting was most unanimous, and nothing the merits of the decision of the HouSe on
was more unlikely than a disturbance. a former occasion respecting those allow-
The bill was then read a second time. ances, as theCrown had determined to pro-
pose no new grant whatever, though his
COMPLAINT AGAINST TIE MAGIS- royal highness had now 3,5001. less than
TRATES OF CARLISLE.] Lord Lowther his royal brother the duke of Cambridge.
said, that he held in his hand a printed The House and the public would not fail
petition presented on a former day by an to admire the domestic economy and pri-
hon. gentleman complaining of the con- vacy in which the duke of Clarence had
duct of three magistrates of Carlisle: he lived, and which alone had enabled him to
wished to know what course the hon. gen- keep within the parliamentary provision.
tleman intended to pursue, as the indivi- The duchess of Kent and the infant prin-
duals concerned were very reluctant that cess might be also thought to have claims
such unfounded calumnies should go forth on the justice of parliament; but he should
without the means of refuting them. His not then propose any vote to them, and
lordship hoped that the subject would not he would inform the House that there
be postponed until the next session. would be no inconvenience in this post-
Mr. James answered, that early in the ponement, as the prince Leopold, with
next session he designed to bring the sub- great liberality, had taken upon himself
ject forward, and that his motion would the charge of the support and education of
then be, that the three magistrates who the infant princess [hear, hear!], hoping,
had called in the military under pretence however, that this would be no bar to any
of quelling a riot, when not the slightest claim she might have on the liberality of
disturbance existed, should be called to parliament on a future occasion. Without
the bar of the House. this liberal proceeding on the part of the
Lord Lowther regretted that the ques- prince Leopold, the provision of the
tion was to be postponed, as the accusa- duchess of Kent would have been found
tions were perfectly groundless and very limited. On opening the civil list,
unjust. he had previously stated to the House,
that he should have tocallon parliament for
KING'S MESSAGE-PROVISION FOR! 24,0001. to make provision for the servants
THE ROYAL FAMILY.] The House hav- of the late king. The estimates for this
ing resolved itself into a committee on grant would be submitted to the House on
the King's Message, Wednesday, and he should at this time
Lord Castlereagh said, that in calling shortly state the heads under which pro-
the attention of the committee to the mes- vision was to be made to that amount. It
sage of his majesty, he was happy to state was not usual on the accession of a mo-
that the votes, seven in number, which he narch to make any charge for the servants
had to propose, were such as would meet of the former king, as those servants gene-
with the unanimous concurrence of the rally continued on the royal establishment.


[144








From the peculiar circumstances which at- the noble lord proposed motions to that
tended the formation of the Windsor esta- House relative to the royal family, ex-
blishment,-from his late majesty having pressed his astonishment that he did not
in fact ceased to reign for some time before offer any proposition to parliament for a
his demise, his present majesty had created due provision for the queen. On one oc-
a royal establishment long before his ac- casion tile noble lord said, that when the
cession. In addition to the servants, in time came for making a provision for the
behalf of whom some allowance was called other branches of the royal family, he
for, were some annual payments which would then introduce the subject of a
had been made out of his late majesty's provision for the queen. He hoped he
privy purse. The whole sum, which it had not misunderstood the noble lord;
was proposed to vote, was about 24,000/. but such he took to be the nature of his
Of this sum the allowances to the servants answer on that occasion. He now found
actually in the king's service at his death, that the noble lord had come down this
would amount to 9,0001. The allowances day, and moved for certain provisions for
to servants who had been previously super- the other branches of the royal family,
annuated from his majesty's household, to without taking any notice whatsoeverof her
4,5001. There were various small pen- majesty. This was a matter of very great
sions charged on his late majesty's privy surprise to him, and, he apprehended, to
purse, which had been formerly exa- many other members of that House.
mined by a committee up stairs, and had From the course pursued by the noble
been charged on that privy purse by the lord, it appeared to him that ministers
advice of that committee. At the demise did not mean to make any proposition to
of her majesty, some of these charges yet the House, on this subject, during the
continued. Several of the pensions were present session. If he were wrong on this
granted by the liberality of his majesty, point-if the noble lord would state, that
and could form no claims on the public, in the course of a few days he meant to
Many of them, however, were of a class submit to the House a proposition relative
which called for the consideration of par- to a provision for her majesty-he would
liament. Of this class the majority were sit down without making any further ob-
allowances to old servants. These charges servation. He presumed, however, from
on the privy purse, which it was now in- the silence of the noblelord,that this would
tended to make parliamentary provision not be the case. He was so much sur-
for, amounted to 10,2001. Of this sum prised at the course the noble lord had
8,0001. had been charged on his privy taken, that lie could not avoid expressing
purse by the late king himself; 1,8001. by the feeling which at that moment impelled
the late queen, while she presided over the him to ask an explanation from the noble
Windsor establishment, and a few hun- lord, whose conduct he could not recon-
dreds a year by the duke of York while cile with his previous declaration. He
he was custos. The persons to whom conceived that it was peremptorily neces-
those payments were made could not be sary for the House to ascertain immedi-
supposed to have a claim as of right on ately the situation in which the queen was
parliament, as the principle could not be now placed, and that in which she was
admitted,thatthecharges ontilesovereign's likely to continue. At present, lie be-
privy purse were to be made permanent on lived, her majesty had no legal income
the public. Yet, under the peculiar cir- whatsoever. What she might receive
cumstances of the case, as no danger ex- from his majesty's ministers was, in his
isted of forming a precedent, he hoped opinion, illegally granted, and unduly
the House would accede to the proposal. made use of. He understood that her
The noble lord concluded with moving, majesty had been told that she might con-
" That his majesty be enabled to grant a tinue to live at the rate of 35,0001. a year;
yearly sum of money, not exceeding but he, as a member of parliament, de-
14,0001., out of the consolidated fund of manded, by what authority that money
the united kingdom of Great Britain and was advanced? by whom it was paid ? and
Ireland, to his royal highness Frederick on what principle his majesty's ministers
duke of York, from 5th July 1820." took upon themselves to make any part of
Lord Archibald Hamilton was extremely the royal family their pensioners ? In his
surprised that the noble lord had wholly apprehension this matter had little or no
omitted to mention any provision for the relation to the discussions that had been
queen. He had, more than once, when lately going on-discussions, the result of
VOL. II. L


Provisionfor0 the Rnoyal Familiy.


JULY 3, 1820- L146







147] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
which was likely to be so calamitous. But
if the members of that House sat there as
guardians of the public purse, they were
bound to demand explanation relative to
all sums that appeared to them to be
illegally and unconstitutionally granted.
They ought to consult the welfare and
dignity of the royal family; and as a
member of parliament he felt that dignity
to be wholly compromised, and the duty
of ministers grossly neglected, if they al-
lowed any portion of the royal family to
be placed in the situation of pensioners on
the existing government. No provision
had been asked for the queen, which was
the more extraordinary, because not a
doubt could be entertained of the readi-
ness of the House to provide for her ma-
jesty. He knew not in what situation her
majesty would be placed at the expiration
of this session; and it was the more ne-
cessary that a proper sum should be voted
for her service, since, if the proceedings
now in progress went on, she would have
occasion for a much larger command of
pecuniary resources than she possessed at
present. It was one singular feature of
this unfortunate and calamitous case, that,
at a time when her majesty was labouring
under accusation, she was not placed in a
situation that commanded all the facilities
necessary for her defence. She was not
treated in that way which her dignity, her
station in the country, and the circum-
stances under which she was called on to
defend herself, ought to have secured.
It was most ungenerous and most unjust
to seize on the present moment, in order
to deprive her of any provision which she
might have formerly enjoyed. He could
not point out to the House what precise
course they ought to pursue; but he was
sure they would not make themselves a
party to the negative insult that had been
offered to her majesty by the noble lord
and his colleagues, by any contribution
of the public money for the use of different
branches of the royal family, all mention
of the queen being omitted; still less did
be believe that the public would tolerate
the noble lord and his colleagues in re-
taining her majesty as a pensioner on
their bounty, merely, as he understood,
because it suited his majesty's ministers
not to stir this important subject. He
wished to avoid touching on any point
connected with the existing investigation,
which had nothing to do with an adequate
provision for her majesty. The proper
mode of proceeding would perhaps be, to


King's Message-


[148


move, in some period of the evening, that
the chairman should leave the chair, report
progress, and ask leave to sit again, for
the purpose of giving his majesty's minis-
ters time to repair the affront they had
given to the House of Commons, and to
the dignity of the royal family. If he had
said any thing harsh or severe, he could
assure the House lie did not intend it; but
he felt that a great neglect had been
shown towards her majesty, in not making
for her that provision to which she was
entitled a proceeding which, he must
observe, placed her majesty in such a
situation as no member of the royal family
ever was, or ever ought to be, placed in-
a situation which no member of that
House ought even for a moment to suffer.
He expected from the noble lord a plain
answer on this subject; but unless he re-
ceived such an answer, he would move
that the chairman do leave the chair, for
the purpose of giving ministers an oppor-
tunity of considering the impropriety of
their conduct, and also to enable the
House to decide how far they would abet
and sanction that impropriety.
Lord Castlereagh said, he was sure that
the surprise of the House would have
been much greater than that expressed by
the noble lord, if ministers had come down
and proposed a settlement for her majesty,
considering the situation in which she at
present stood. The noble lord had made
three distinct charges against ministers-
1st, they were charged with not providing
funds sufficient to enable her majesty to
enter on her defence; next, with having
committed a breach of the law, in grant-
ing sums of money not sanctioned by
parliament; and, lastly, with having neg-
lected to make a proposition to parliament
relative to a provision for her majesty, it
having been notified that such a proposi-
tion would be submitted to the House.
Now, with respect to any practical incon-
venience connected with the first point,
he could assure the House that every
means had been taken to obviate it. Every
care had been taken to prevent any per-
sonal inconvenience which might be likely
to affect her majesty. Provision had been
made to meet any particular expense
which the queen might incur in conse-
quence of the pending inquiry. Thatwas
a point which he could assure the noble
lord had neither escaped the king, nor
been lost sight of by his ministers. It had
been specifically notified to her majesty
that every means would be afforded to her







Provision for the Royal Family.


for the defence of her character and con-
duct. He therefore hoped that the House
would not catch from the noble lord the
insinuation, for he had not made it a mat.
ter of direct charge, that there was any
desire on the part of his majesty's minis-
ters to expose the queen to any inconve-
nience, or to abridge her comforts in any
way whatsoever. With respect to the
mode in which the allowance was granted
to her majesty, the jealous feelings of the
noble lord would be quieted if he took the
trouble of reading the resolution which
passed that House in the month of April
last, which went to continue for a limited
time certain grants that had been pre-
viously made, and which were chargeable
on the consolidated fund. Of these
grants, the sum annually paid to the
queen was one. It would be quite time
enough for the noble lord's constitutional
jealousy to take the alarm, if, after the
5th of July, he discovered that any ad-
vance of this nature had been made by
ministers. At present, ministers had
shown as little inclination to interfere with
the functions of parliament as to neglect
the duties of humanity. As to what the
noble lord said relative to what he had
observed on a former occasion, he was
ready to avow that at the time alluded to
he contemplated, as the most proper mo-
ment for making a settlement on her ma-
jesty, the period when the grants to the
other branches of the royal family were
brought under the consideration of the
House. He had studiously stated this
point, because there was nothing at that
period to prevent their proceeding on the
same principles by which their vote would
be guided with respect to the other
branches of the royal family. This feel-
ing he had entertained while any hope
existed that her majesty would remain on
the continent, and thus save the House
the painful task of investigating her con-
duct. What had since occurred had
materially altered the situation of affairs;
and for his own part, he did not think
that the queen had authorized the noble
lord to introduce this subject, after the
papers that had been laid on the table of
the House. Her majesty in one of those
papers had plainly declared, that she would
not have any thing to do with the pecu-
niary arrangement until the circumstances
affecting her honour and character were
disposed of. Besides, the noble lord
ought to know that the House could not
entertain a question of that description,


viz., the making a settlement on the queen'
without a message from the Crown. It
was not for them to become initiative on
a measure of this kind; and he would tell
the noble lord, that in bringing it forward
he was travelling out of his function as a
member of parliament. It was not, he
believed, very usual for the representatives
of the people to be clamouring for the
disposal of the public money. Neither
did he think it was proper to enter into
an inquiry as to the way in which the
queen was to be provided for, until they
saw the end of the pending investigation.
He was the more astonished at the course
adopted by the noble lord, because it was
entirely contrary to the feeling of the no-
ble lord's right lion. friend (Mr. Tierney).
That right hon. gentleman had stated, that
he would not vote a shilling of the public
money to the queen, till the charges made
against her were entirely cleared up. He
had farther observed, that if even a ru-
mour continued unexplained, he would not
agree to any supply that might be pro-
posed for her use. So determined was
that right hon. gentleman, that he would
not even suffer rumours to pass by unno-
ticed. But the noble lord, rather unad-
visedly he thought, was anxious, in the
very midst of these delicate proceedings,
that her majesty should be specially pro-
vided for. Under all the difficulties of
this painful state of things it would be
found that the Crown had taken the best
care to relieve her majesty from any em-
barrassment in entering on her defence;
and with respect to making a permanent
provision for her, it would perhaps be as
well to reserve that subject until the
moment when the country understood
how her conduct was regarded by parlia-
ment.
Lord A. Ilamilton observed, that the
noble lord had treated him with much
unfairness, and the House with still more.
In the first place, every gentleman would
do him the justice to acknowledge his
having stated in the outset, that if the
noble lord meant, in the present session,
to move for an allowance to her majesty,
he would say nothing more on the sub-
ject. The noble lord, however, had told
them that her'majesty had been provided
for until the 5th of July. He would now
ask the noble lord how her majesty was
to be provided for after that period ? and
in answer to the triumph of the noble lord,
he would observe, that, had he postponed
the statement which he had that night


JULY 3, 1820. [150






151] HOUSE OF COMMONS, King's Message, 3Sc. [152
submitted to the House until the day after to her majesty, as he understood, for the
to-morrow, the noble lord would not have ensuing quarter, and he was also glad to
had the opportunity of repelling it as he learn from the noble lord, that a sufficient
had done. The course the noble lord had provision would be made for her majesty,
taken was another proof of the extreme to enable her to conduct her defence.
unfairness that pervaded the whole of his This had not been the customary mode of
conduct on this occasion. He would de- proceeding. It was usual for parliament
mand whether any perversion of reasoning to defray the amount of the charges after
could be greater than to argue that be- they had been incurred. So long, how-
cause her majesty thought proper (most ever, as the queen was provided with the
honourably as he conceived) to exclude means ofentering on her defence, he cared
all pecuniary considerations from the not whether they were granted before or
negotiation between her law-advisers and after that defence was made. It ought
ministers, therefore the noble lord's hu- to be recollected, however, thatthe queen
vanity and that of his colleagues should had been allowed 35,0001. a year as Prin-
lead them rather to continue her a pen- cess of Wales, she having at the time a
sioner on their bounty than a plain and royal palace to live in. Was it not, then,
direct applicant to that House. He could a fair matter of consideration whether the
not imagine any thing more unfair in ar- same sum would now be sufficient, her
gument than that. He did not wish to majesty having to provide herself with a
follow this subject farther; but his opi- House? He had little more to observe
nion was, that the line of conduct pursued with reference to these votes, because the
by the noble lord was neither suited to thie whole of them would be brought before
dignity of the royal family nor creditable the House in a more formal shape on
to the character of parliament. The no- Wednesday. It was true that the duke
ble lord ought to know that, by the law of Clarence was in a worse situation than
of this country, every individual against any of his royal brothers. On his mar-
whom charges were made was, pending riage 10,0001. had been proposed for him,
trial, deemed to be innocent. but only a sum of 6,0001. was voted, which,
Mr. Tierney said, it was perfectly true, he knew not by whose advice, he had de-
that he did state that he would not agree dined accepting. From his independent
to any permanent vote for her majesty, conduct on that occasion, and his having
until the charges alleged against her were thrown himself openly on the feelings of
cleared up. When her majesty's name the people, he appeared to him to be
was omitted in the Liturgy, he had de- worthy of the additional vote that was
dared that if her conduct was such as to about to be proposed.
justify that measure, he would vote against Lord Castlereagh observed, that pro-
any grant that should be proposed. He vision would not only be made for the
was a little surprised, however, at the usual support of her majesty, but that a
course the noble lord was now pursuing, sum would also be granted to meet any
because, if he understood him correctly, expenses that might arise during the pend-
he had stated that he would, whenever ing investigation. Her majesty was pro-
the provision for the royal family was vided for by the vote of that House
brought before the House, take some no- up to the 5th of July, and it would be
tice of her majesty's situation. It ap- time enough for the noble lord to com-
peared to him that her majesty was treated plain when he found ministers disbursing
in the most extraordinary way, no provi- the public money without any legal autho-
sion of any kind having been made for rity.
her. The noble lord had stated very truly, Mr. Dcnman wished to observe, that
that no member of that House could this question was brought before the com-
bring such a question forward of his own mittee, without her majesty's knowledge.
motion, but that it rust be done by a She had given no directions whatsoever
message from the Crown. He knew that on the subject; she had no possible doubt
there must be a message on the subject; that all necessary means for defending her
but he supposed no intention existed to rights and asserting her character would be
make the necessary provision for her ma- afforded her from some quarter or other.
jesty [Lord Castlereagh here intimated It was, however, fit that the House should
across the table that such an intention did understand that the expenses would neces-
exist]. Ile was very happy to find that sarily be very considerable. There was,
a proper sum of money would be allowed however, another object much nearer to







Personal Property of the late King.


her heart than that of expense; it was
the dread lest the interference of foreign
powers should prevent her from having
the benefit of those witnesses who were
necessary to her exculpation. She feared
that certain foreign powers, particularly
Austria, which had been exceedingly ac-
tive in her persecution, would deprive her
of those individuals without whom her
justification would be incomplete. When
she was, at last, accused before a public
tribunal, whatever the decision of that
tribunal might be, she called for a fair
opportunity to sustain her character,
and with that view she demanded that
all difficulties and obstacles should be re-
moved.
Lord Castlereagh said, that on the part
of the Crown every thing would be (lone
to facilitate her majesty's proceedings;
and, with respect to the foreign powers,
they would, he conceived, feel it to be a
point of character to give her every assist-
ance in their power.
The several resolutions were agreed to.

PERSONAL PROPERTY OF THE LATE
KING.] Sir J. Newport wished to ask
the chancellor of the exchequer, whe-
ther his late majesty had left a will, or,
if he had died intestate, in what man-
ner his personal property had been dis-
posed of ?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said,
le was not prepared to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Tierney repeated the question, and
asked, in case of the non-existence of
such a document, what had become of that
property ?
The Chancellor ofthe Exchequer replied,
that he did not know, and it was not his
duty to know whether such a paper exist-
ed.
Mr. Hume said, that when he put a si-
milar question to the chancellor of the
exchequer upon a former occasion, the
right lion. gentleman was certainly under-
stood to have stated distinctly that a will
did exist. If his late majesty had died
intestate, it was proper that the House
should know what had become of the
money vested by acts of parliament under
commissions, before they proceeded to
grant sums of money to any part of the
royal family. He trusted that some ho-
nourable member would take an early op-
portunity of making a motion upon the
subject.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer ob-


served, that if there was no will the perso-
nal property, he apprehended, devolved
to the successor to the throne.
Mr. Tierney thought it very important
to ascertain whether his majesty had died
intestate, or if any paper amounting to a
will had beem found, what measures had
been taken with respect to the disposition
of the personal property of his late ma-
jesty.
Mr. Bernal wished to know from whom
lie was to receive official information upon
this subject, if not from the chancellor of
the exchequer.
Mr. Hume contended, that if his late
majesty had died intestate, his property
was no longer private but public; and
if public, it was the duty of the House
to ascertain, especially in the :present
distressed state of the country, in what
manner it had been disposed of.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer assured
the hon. gentleman, that no part of the
personal property of the his late majesty
had come under the cognizance of that
part of the government connected with
the Treasury.
Mr. J. P. Grant said, that as part of the
property, which was primndfacie to be con-
sidered as the property of the Crown, had
been put up to sale, the House ought to
be informed whether any inquiry had been
made to ascertain whether it belonged to
the Crown or not.
Mr. Hume wished to ask the chancellor
of the exchequer whether lie would have
any objection to state, upon a motion be-
ing made, what steps had been taken by
ministers to ascertain whether his late
majesty had left a will, and what part of
his personal property was likely to accrue
to the public.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer was
silent.
Mr. Baring thought that if this subject
appeared to be involved in any mystery
or intrigue, a strong sensation would be
excited in the country. If the exaggerat-
ed estimates had gone abroad as to the
amount of the property left by his late
majesty ; that circumstance was itself cal-
culated to excite the public attention,
which would probably be increased after
the conversation which had taken place
upon the subject. If the right hon. gen-
tleman did not wish to give any distinct
information, he might at least state some
reason which rendered it inconvenient to
be more explicit.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer re-


JULY S, 1820. [151







155] HOUSE OF COMMONS,
peated, that no part of his late majesty's
property had come under the cognizance
of the Treasury, the disposition of it be-
longed more properly to the authority of
another court.
Mr. Bernal observed, that information
was extracted from the right hon. gentle-
man, like a bad cork from a bottle of
brandy.
After some further conversation, Mr.
Hume gave notice that he would make a
motion respecting the personal property of
the late king to-morrow.

KING'S BENCH PROCEEDINGS BILL.]
The House having gone into a committee
on this bill,
Mr. Chetwynd said, it was his intention
to propose three additional clauses to this
bill. The first of them was, to enable
judges to pass sentence upon defendants
at Nisi Prius, instead of bringing them up
to the court of King's Bench.
The Attorney-General said, that an ob-
jection in limine existed against the clause
proposed by the hon. member. When
defendants were brought up to the court
of King's Bench, they had a right to
move for a new trial, for a writ of
error, or in arrest of judgment. The
effect of the clause would be to deprive
them of these advantages. Whatever opi-
nion the House might entertain of the
expediency of such an alteration if intro-
duced to them as a specific measure,
there could be no question as to the im-
propriety of entertaining it in the crude
shape in which the hon. gentleman had
brought it forward.
Mr. Chetwynd observed, that in offences
against the revenue not a single instance
of a new trial had occurred in the last
year.
Mr. G. Bankes thought that the clause
proposed would be more properly made
the subject of a specific measure.
The Attorney General was of opinion,
that in the cases which had been pointed
at,it might be very important to the parties
to possess the right of moving for a new
trial. He therefore could not consent to
adopt the clause. He explained and justi-
fied the increased amount of law charges
for the last year,and proceeded to show that
the statement recently made by the late
member for Colchester receiving briefs
and counsel being paid for all prosecutions
throughout the country whether they at-
tended them or not was erroneous.
The clause was rejected, and as Mr.


The Coronation. [156
Chetwynd did not press his other clauses,
the House resumed.

THE CORONATION.] On the order of
the day for going into a committee of
supply,
Mr. Creevey rose to make a few obser-
vations upon a subject which the right
lion. gentleman was going to introduce to
their notice-he meant the expense of the
ensuing Coronation. As yet there had not
been placed upon their table any estimate
of the sums of money which would be re-
quired for such a ceremony; and till such
an estimate was presented to them, he for
one, would not grant a single farthing for
it. Indeed, it was his opinion, that, under
the present circumstances of the country,
no coronation ought to take place: for let
honorable members consider-and if they
did not consider, the public would con-
sider for them-the situation to which
that House was at present reduced. A
green bag had been submitted as well to
its notice as to the notice of the other
House of Parliament. The other House
had proceeded so far in the investigation
of the contents of that bag as to render it
extremely probable that a bill would be
immediately introduced to expose her
majesty the queen to the utmost disgrace
and infamy. The House of Commons
had, however, refused to enter with simi-
lar speed into a similar investigation; and
yet, notwithstanding that circumstance,
ministers, who knew well that that bag
was lying on their table unopened, and
that proceedings might arise from the
opening of it which could only be termi-
nated in another place-ministers had
dared to come down, and to ask for a
large grant of money to be expended in a
grand gala, a great national jubilee, whilst
the queen of the country was labouring
under the most heavy and grievous accu-
sations. If the laws of the land had pre-
scribed any particular period, after the
demise of one monarch and the accession
of another, within which this ceremony
of coronation was necessarily to take place,
then, however painful the circumstances
attending it might be, he should have said,
let it take place within that period. But
no such limitation existed, and therefore,
under existing circumstances, it was most
improper that it should be held at the time
which was now fixed for it. Indeed, his
majesty would be most imprudently ad-
vised if he did not postpone it until the
conclusion of this investigation. If there







157] The Coronation.
was any one country in the world more
distinguished than another for honourable
and chivalric feeling towards women, it
was our own; and he would say, that he
had never seen in it any individual who
would wish to obtain gratification to him-
self by inflicting pain even upon the most
degraded of the other sex. If, then, such
were the state of feeling amongst us, with
what disgust would the nation view its
king mixing in all the revelry of a grand
gala and jubilee-given too, not at his own
but at the public expense-at the very
time that its queen was made the subject
of a grave and heinous accusation ? It was
said, that in the course of this inquiry
there could be no recrimination; but even
allowing that to be the case, which he did
not believe, still it ought to be recollected
that,so far as public feeling was concerned,
the king was as much upon his trial as
his illustrious consort. He thought that,
as the House had decided that the inquiry
now proposed would be both derogatory
from the dignity of the Crown and in-
jurious to the best interests of the empire,
that inquiry ought not to be instituted ;
but if it were, it appeared to him that
the coronation, costing the money which
it would cost, and irritating the feelings
of the country as it would irritate them,
ought to be postponed until that inquiry
was finally terminated.
Lord Castlereagh observed, that he did
not know upon what grounds the hon.
member had come forward with so much
zeal to attack the coronation, if it were
not on the ground of the expense by
which it would be attended; and upon
that point he was happy to inform
him that it would be much less than
had been originally expected. With re-
gard to the argument which the hon.
member had built upon the unfortunate
differences now existing between their
majesties, he felt himself compelled to
to say, that his majesty's rights were not
to be impaired either by the absence or
the presence of the queen on this occa-
sion; for the coronation was not a grand
gala, or national jubilee, as the hon. mem-
ber had represented it, but a ceremony
whereby the king ratified the compact
which existed between himself and his peo-
ple; and therefore was a ceremony which
ought not to be delayed. His majesty's
ministers deserved no blame on account
of the period at which the coronation was
to take place, as it had been fixed at the
usual period after the death of the pre-


JULY 3, 1820.


[158


ceding sovereign, and had been announced
long before it was known that her majesty
would return to England. Ifit occasioned
pain to her majesty, ministers could not
but regret that circumstance; but still it
ought to be recollected, that her majesty's
presence was not occasioned by them,
and therefore, if it did cause her pain,
they were not the authors of it. As, then,
a day had been fixed for the coronation,
as that coronation was the time when the
king entered into a covenant with the na-
tion to observe its laws and protect its
interests, and as no public ground had
been shown for deferring it, he did not
feel it to be his duty to interfere in arrest-
ing it. Before he sat down he would take
the opportunity of assuring the House,
that 105,000/. would be the utmost ex-
pense which this coronation would cost
to the country.
Dr. Lushington apprehended that at
present there were circumstances of so pe-
cular a nature, both with respect to the
situation of the queen-consort, and the
state of the public finances, that ministers
themselves must believe they would best
discharge their duty by advising that this
ceremony should be delayed. There was,
in fact, no necessity for a coronation at
all, and he believed it would be found, on
referring tothe history of this country, that
many kings had reigned for a considerable
time without having gone through that
ceremony. If then, there was no neces-
sity for his majesty's being crowned, it
became a question whether or not, at the
present moment, it was expedient. His
hon. friend had stated, that while the
trial of her majesty was going on, it was
improper that there should be a public
solemnity in which she could take no part.
In this opinion he entirely concurred; and
he also agreed with his hon. friend in
thinking that it would be imprudent to
rouse and provoke the feelings of the peo-
ple of this country, at a time when they
would be in a high state of excitation.
He would appeal to the noble lord himself
whether it was not impolitic to offer this
additional excitement to public feeling at
a time when the noble lord must know,
from the addresses that were presented to
her majesty, what the opinion of the peo-
ple was respecting the treatment which
she had received : and when he must also
know, if he at all looked forward to futu-
rity, that these feelings would hereafter
become stronger than they were at pre-
sent. But there was still another objec-







159] HOUSE OF COMMONS, The Coronation. [160
tion which had more weight with him than should say, that to whatever extremities
either of those to which he had adverted- the people might go, whatever outrages
he meant the universal distress which at they might commit [Hear! from minis-
present pervaded the country. That dis- ters] ; he was not afraid to avow the senti-
tress was so real and so great, that he ment; and lest the hon. gentleman should
would not consent to vote away a single think that he might disavow it at some
shilling of the public money for any pur- future period, he would now repeat, he
pose that was not absolutely and indispen. believed in his conscience that whatever
sably necessary. Let hon. gentlemen excesses the people n':ght commit they
look at their table covered with petitions had been driven to them by ministers, by
from the agriculturists; let them reflect their arrogant and oppressive conduct, and
on the present state of all the great manu- their contempt of public feeling. Did
facturing towns in the kingdom-Glasgow the hon. gentlemen opposite suppose that
in ruins, Leeds in distress, and Birming- the spirit of the country was to be fettered
ham scarcely able to support herself; let and manacled by those volunteers that were
them also look at the situation of the sister now raising, or that it was to be kept down
kingdom, to relieve whose commercial dis- by the barracks that were rising up in
tresses they had a few nights ago voted a every direction ? This effect might indeed
grant of 500,0001.; and with this picture be produced for a short time-but only for
before their eyes, was the noble lord to a short time; for there was still spirit
tell them that 105,0001. was a small sum ? enough in the country to lay in the dust all
It was not a small sum; it was a large the machinations of the hon. gentleman
amount, when the means of the country and his colleagues. He had thought it
and the distresses of the people were taken his duty to state these sentiments. On
into consideration. What would be the looking at the events which had occurred
effect of a coronation at the present mo- for some time past, and at the measures
ment on the public feeling ? They would which had been adopted in consequence
have in the news-papers columns upon co- of those events he firmly believed that no
lumns filled with accounts of this pompous bills could effectually put down disaffec-
ceremony, with gorgeous descriptions of tion, because he was convinced that dis-
the coronation robes, and of all the splen- affection never existed generally amongst
did trappings and costly equipage dis- a people, except it were the consequence
played on the occasion; and when the of misgovernment on the part of their
starving individuals in Glasgow, Leeds, rulers.
and Birmingham, should read these ac- The Chancellor of the Exchequer ex-
counts, and learn that 105,0001. had thus pressed his surprise at the observations of
been spent in one day, while at that very the hon. and learned gentleman, as he
moment there were hundreds of thousands had allowed the subject to sleep so long
of individuals in those towns without any unnoticed. The hon and learned gentle-
means ofsubsistence-what effect, under man knew of it long ago from the king's
those circumstances, could such an ac- proclamation. He had, however, chosen
count have but to excite disgust and dis- to wait until a considerable expence had
content? Let the House compare the mi- been incurred, and when the question was,
sery and sufferings of these people with not so much whether the public money
the pomp and pageantry of the proposed should be paid, but whether the tradesmen
coronation, and then they would see if who had been employed should he honour-
ministers were not exerting themselves to ably paid ? He wished the hon. and learn-
aggravate the distress of the country. ed gentleman to consider, whether or not
They not only neglected the public dis- when the complaint from many parts of
tress, but were also wanting in attention the country was of a want of employment,
to constitutionalforms. They were erect- the occurrence of such a great public so-
ing additional barracks at the present mo- lemnity as that in contemplation was pe-
ment at Glasgow, at Manchester, and culiarly desirable, giving work as it must
even in the metropolis: and for what pur- to many branches of the unoccupied ?
pose? Why, to keep down the dissatis- The hon. and learned gentleman must
faction of the country. Thus, while they know that the sum voted from the public
were taking measures on one hand to sup- purse would form but a small part of the
press discontent, they were on the other money that would be expended on the
doing all in their power to excite it. If occasion. He must know that the ex-
this measure were persisted in, he, for one, pence to which the higher classes of so-








city would be put in consequence of the been so fixed, it did not become necessary
approaching solemnity, would very much to alter it in consequence of any difference
exceed the amount to be taken from the which existed in the royal family, and
public purse. He must know that the there having been no previous objection
whole of this expenditure would go to en- started to the coronation of his majesty,
liven industry and employ the manufac- the House ought to provide for the ex-
turers, who were in want of such a sti- penses attendant on it.
mulus. The hon. and learned gentleman Colonel Davies was of opinion, that the
must know that the peculiar grievance in period fixed for his majesty's coronation
the country was the want of animation was a most inconvenient one. Irritated
which trade experienced. Above all as the public mind now was, it might be
times, therefore, the present was the time productive not only of disorder and riot,
in which an ancient custom, which would but of bloodshed. Why, then, should his
contribute to produce that animation, majesty's advisers propose such a proceed-
ought not to be relinquished. As the lion. ing at this moment? It was not indis-
and learned gentleman asserted that there pensably necessary that his majesty should
was a want of fidelity to the constitution be crowned immediately. His late ma-
on the part of the people, could there be jesty was not crowned until 13 months
a better occasion on which that disaffec- after his accession. He thought, there-
tion might be diminished than one in which fore, that as there was no other mode of
the monarch on the one hand promised repressing tumult on this occasion than by
protection, while the people on the other calling out an extraordinary number of
pledged themselves to pay the tribute of the military, the danger likely to arise had
their allegiance ? Was the present a time better be avoided by postponing the coro-
to depart from an ancient usage of that nation for the present.
nature ? Was it a time to abandon those Mr. T. Wilson said, it was not his in-
forms which our ancestors had established, tention to prejudge the guilt or innocence
and which had so long been maintained? of her majesty, but he thought it would
Was it not rather a time at which, with all be derogatory from the dignity of the
due attention to economy, the most vene- crown to refuse the sum proposed to
rable and splendid ceremony of our con- defray the expenses of his majesty's coro-
stitution ought to be properly observed ? nation. It was rather odd that those gen-
The hon. and learned gentleman had gone tlemen who had now objected to this
rather to extremities in his speech. He ceremony, had not, on any former occa-
had, by anticipation, apologised for any sion, signified their disapprobation of its
outrages to which lie thought the people taking place at the time proposed. Any
would be prompted by the extravagance objection on that head ought to have been
of ministers [Dr. Lushington expressed made at an earlier period.
his dissent across the table]. He hoped Mr. Bennet said, the lion. gentleman
then that he had misunderstood the hon. had accused his side of the House for not
and learned gentleman, and he was per- having taken an earlier opportunity of op-
suaded it would give the House satisfac- posing the coronation at the period pro-
tion, if the hon. and learned gentleman posed. But who was it that proposed that
could explain the expressions to which he coronation-who was it that directed the
alluded. What he had understood the erection of the works for it ? It was his
hon. and learned gentleman to declare was, majesty's ministers, not the opposition, as
that the extravagance of ministers was a i neither he nor his friends had any oppor-
just ground for expecting that the people tunity of speaking on the subject until it
would proceed to extremities and outrage. came fairly before the House. He could
Dr. Luslihigton said, that what lie had not help feeling, that nothing was more
stated was, that the distress of the country I likely to excite public indignation, than to
was occasioned by the extravagance of find, that while one House was agitating
ministers. a bill of pains and penalties against her
The Chancellor of the Exchequer con- majesty, the other was employed in voting
tinued. He would say no more on that a sum of money to be expended in the
point. With respect to the coronation of pageantry and show of the coronation of
his majesty, he begged to observe that the king. Historians had remarked, that
the period when that ceremony should in the reign of Henry 8th, the public
take place, was fixed long before the ar- mind had been much agitated, while pro-
rival of the queen. The period having ceedings were pending against the queen
VOL. II. M


The Coronation.


JULY t3, 1820. 1-16-9








of that monarch, at observing the festi- the coronation could not be witnessed at
vities and pageantry of that court. He all.
thought it not unlikely that a similar feel- Mr. W. Smith would ask the right hon,
ing, would be entertained now, if it was gentleman, if he really believed that the
found, that while the ceremony of the king, after he had taken the coronation
coronation was going on in Westminster oath would be more or less bound to
Abbey, a bill of pains and penalties was reign according to law than he was after
pending against the queen. he had taken the oath before the privy
Mr. Robinson said, he rose principally council ? Could it be said that he was at
to make a few observations, which were any future period to be absolved from any
drawn from him by the extraordinary and of his regal functions because he had not
unmeaning rant of the hon. and learned taken a coronation oath ? As to those
doctor, who had worked himself into a splendid ceremonies, of which the chan-
most violent passion, and had belaboured cellor of the exchequer had spoken as
his majesty's ministers most unmercifully; calculated to support the dignity of the
but if there was any foundation for that Crown, he conceived that they were-
harangue, the hon.and learned doctor had more honoured in the breach than in
been lamentably remiss in his duty in not the observance." He appealed to every
calling them to account long ago. He hon. gentleman, whether it was not his
ought to have objected to the first step opinion that the feelings of the country
taken in preparing for the coronation ; he were more in favour of economy than of
bad not however done so, and therefore the the most splendid public exhibition. He
learned doctor was wrong in now object- had hitherto purposely abstained from
ing to the expenses necessary to carry that saying any thing on the question of the
object into effect. It was objected that so queen ; and if he were now to speak his
large a sum should be expended in the sentiments, he apprehended they would
mere pageantry of a coronation, and that not please either side of the House. He
too while a bill of pains and penalties was thought that the propriety or impropriety
pending against her majesty. He denied of having a coronation while proceedings
that the coronation was a pageantry. Let were going on against her majesty, was
the lion. member look to the preamble merely a matter of feeling; but it was a
to the act of king William, and he would matter that came home to the mind and
find that the coronation was any thing bosom of every person.
but a parade. The king was bound to Mr. Baring concurred with his hon.
take certain oaths, and it would be a fault friends as to the unfitness of the period
in ministers to delay his majesty's doing chosen for the coronation ; but with re-
so. The hon. member then read the oath guard to the expense, lie could not think
which his majesty was bound to take, that there would be any man in the coun-
", that he was bound to govern the country try whose feelings would be shocked by
according to the statutes; that he should it. The estimate was certainly far less
administerjustice in mercy; that lie would than lie had anticipated. Although it
maintain the religion of the country as by was undoubtedly of extreme importance
law established, &c." Would the House, that the king should be crowned soon af-
after this, say that the coronation was a ter his accession, yet he could not see
matter of choice ? He maintained it was that a delay of 6, of 12, or of 18 months
matter of law, and could not be dispensed even, was material. He thought, also,
with [Hear, hear !]. This being the case, that the ceremony should be performed
how could ministers have justified them- with great solemnity; but he repeated
selves in advising the postponement of so that lie could not see the necessity of be-
important a measure? Next came the ing particular as to the precise period of
objection in point of time. He remem- the event. Pending the present proceed-
bered, that six months since, a great ob- ings with regard to her majesty, however,
section was, that it was to take place in the celebration of that solemnity was
the dog-days: however this might be, he likely to be not only unpleasant to the
was sure that Christmas would be found a feelings of the people, but to have a very
much more inconvenient period. The injurious effect upon the minds of many.
public curiosity would naturally be excited If her majesty were declared innocent,
on the occasion, and ministers would un- every person would say, notwithstanding
dergo no small portion of blame, if a that it might be the right of the Crown
period was fixed when the ceremony of to determine whether or no she should be
I)


1,6i3] H-OUSt" 01, CO.NnlIONS,


The Coronation.


[164







165] The Coronation.
crowned, that it was a great hardship to
exclude her from a participation in the
ceremony of the coronation. But his
principal object in rising was, to suggest
that upon the coronation of a new king,
some alteration should be adopted in the
oaths which were to be taken by him.
The whole of the family and race of the
Pretender having now ceased, lie thought
his majesty's ministers should devise some
alteration in the oaths.
Sir AM. W. Ridley hoped, that should
the coronation take place, a due regard
would be paid to the encouragement of
British manufacture. Tihe article of velvet
particularly ought to be encouraged on
this occasion. It was true that English
velvet could not compete with that of
Genoa, yet it was equally handsome in
appearance. This might appear a trifling
consideration, but he hoped it would not
be forgotten by his majesty's advisers.
Mr. Tierney said, that as to the vote to
be proposed, he was not aware that he
should have any thing to object on that
account. He was no enemy, on some oc-
casions, to pageants, and, least of all, to
such a pageant as the one in question.
But he regretted that it was determined
that the coronation should take place
upon the 1st of August. He sincerely
lamented that his majesty should have
been advised to come to such a resolution.
After the steps, however, which had
been taken, after the official letters that
had been addressed to all parties concern-
ed, it was hardly, perhaps, to be expect-
ed, that his majesty should stop short in
the ti .isaction. He did not, at the same
time, think that there were ten gentlemen
in the House who would not thank him,
if he could devise any means by which
the celebration of the coronation could be
farther deferred. Now, after the arrival
of her majesty in this country, he did
own that lie had hoped the propriety and
necessity of such a postponement would
have been felt and acted upon. He should
be liable to a great deal of misunderstand-
ing, if lie were to state all that he appre-
hended as likely to result from the corona-
tion so speedily taking place. The general
opinion was that her majesty had been op-
pressed. He did not here mean to say a
word as to the opinion of her innocence
or guilt; yet it could not be contended
for a moment but that this opinion of her
being oppressed was the general feeling;
and the one which pervaded not only the
lower classes, but the higher ranks of so-


JuLY 3, 1820. [166
city also. He would ask any man whe-
ther this was a moment to be selected for
a coronation, when her majesty was resid-
ing in a miserable house in Portman-
street? The right hon. gentleman had
referred to an act of parliament; and that
undoubtedly was a very important one.
if it had directed that the oaths should be
taken within a few weeks, it might have
been a conclusive authority; but the fact
was, that they had always beer postponed
where particular circumstances required.
For instance, his late majesty's coronation
was deferred in this way, upon the ground
that he was about to espouse the late
queen, upon which account it was thought
better that the two coronations should be
performed at once. So in the present
case, if all the grounds of suspicion should
be done away with, he was prepared to
contend, that her majesty should be
crowned. If his majesty's coronation
should be deferred till that were the case,
she would be entitled to participate in
that exalted honour. The noble lord
could not deny that in consequence of the
proposed coronation a larger military
force than usual was to be introduced into
the metropolis. Now, under these cir-
cumstances, he thought that more cruel,
more unfriendly, or more unkind advice
could not have been given to the Crown,
than to proceed with this important mea-
sure ; and he agreed that ministers were
to be held responsible for all the acts
which might follow. He pressed upon
the attention of the House the mischiev-
ous consequences which might result from
the occurrence of the coronation on the
1st of August, while the minds of men
were so entirely occupied by the question
of the exclusion, just or unjust, of her
majesty from the full enjoyment of her
right. lIe thought that its postponement
could be productive of no bad effect;
whereas its celebration upon that day
might be productive of consequences
which could not be foreseen.
Mr. Ricardo thought that if the various
articles likely to be consumed at the co-
Sronation could be bought cheaper in the
foreign than the home market, there could
be no objection to their not being home
manufacture, seeing that they must be
purchased by the produce of our own in-
dustry.
The House then went into the com-
mittee, in which it was resolved, That
100,0001. be granted on account ot the
expenses of his majesty's coronation."







167] HOUSE OF LORDS, Report ofthe Secret Committee on the Papers [168


IRISH COURT OF CHANCERY BILL.]
The report of this bill being brought up,
Colonel Barry said, that in order to show
there was a second opinion in the House
with respect to the case of Mr. Ellis, who
was, he believed, ere now, elected for
Dublin, he thought it proper to move an
additional clause, viz. That nothing in
the act shall extend to prevent any per-
son from sitting or voting in the House
of Commons who shall have been elected
to serve therein previous to the passing of
the act." The question being put, that
the clause be brought up, the House di-
vided-Ayes, 42; Noes, 65 : Majority
against the clause, 23. The report was
then agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, July 4.
REPORT OF THE SECRET COMMITTEE
ON THE PAPERS RELATING TO THE CON-
DUCT OF THE QUEEN.] The Earl of
Harrowby rose and said, that as chairman
of the Secret Committee appointed to
examine the Papers referred to the House
by his majesty's message, relating to the
conduct of the queen, he was commanded
to present the Report of the Committee
to the House. The noble earl moved
that it be read, which being agreed to-
The Clerk read the Report as follows :
By the Lords' Committees, appointed
a Secret Committee to examine the
Papers laid before the House of
Lords on Tuesday, the 6th of June
last, in two sealed bags, by his ma-
jesty's command, and to report there-
upon as they shall see fit, and to
whom have been since referred seve-
ral additional papers, in two sealed
bags, relative to the subject matter
of his majesty's most gracious Mes-
sage of the 6th of June last,
Ordered to Report, That the Com-
mittee have examined, with all the atten-
tion due to so important a subject the do-
cuments which have been laid before them,
and they find that those documents con-
tain allegations supported by the concur-
rent testimony of a great number of per-
sons in various situations of life, and re-
siding in different parts of Europe, which
deeply affect the honour of the queen,
charging her majesty with an adulterous
connection with a foreigner, originally in
her service in a menial capacity; and at-
tributing to her majesty a continued series


of conduct highly unbecoming her ma-
jesty's rank and station, and of the most
licentious character.
These charges appear to the Commit-
tee to be calculated so deeply to affect, not
only the honour of the Queen, but also
the dignity of the Crown, and the moral
feeling and honour of the country, that in
their opinion, it is indispensable that they
should become the subject of a solemn in-
quiry ; which it appears to the Committee
may be best effected in the course of a
legislative proceeding, the necessity of
which they cannot but most deeply de-
plore."
The Report was ordered to be printed.
The Earl of Liverpool said, that in con-
sequence of the report which their lord-
ships had just heard, it was incumbent on
him to give notice, that he should to-
morrow bring in a bill, founded upon the
report, the object of which he should then
explain to their lordships. At the same
time all facilities would be given to the
illustrious personage whose conduct was
implicated so much, for the purposes of
defence or exculpation in every way. He
concluded by moving, that their lordships
be summoned for to-morrow.
Earl Grey would, in the present situa-
tion of the proceedings, abstain from saying
much that occurred to him upon this most
important subject, the difficulty and dan-
ger to be apprehended from which was, in
his opinion, increased in an immense de-
gree by the report now on the table.
When he before objected to the course
which the noble lords opposite proposed
to pursue, he stated then, and he now
repeated, that his only object was to ob-
tain for the parties concerned strict and
impartial justice. He had now again to
enter his protest against the injustice of a
proceeding which did not leave the case
of the person accused in an unprejudiced
state. The charges now made were not
merely brought forward by the ministers
of the Crown, but came before their lord-
ships through the medium of a committee
of their lordships' House. It was there-
fore important that their lordships should
consider the situation in which they were
placed. Though the noble lord had al-
luded to the introduction of a legislative
proceeding, it must be anticipated that
their lordships would have to act judicially
in the course of the inquiry. They ought,
then, to come impartially to that part of
their duty. The charge set forth, on
the authority of the report, was that of an







169] relating to the Conduct of the Queen.


adulterous connexion with a menial ser-
vant, and a long course of licentious con-
duct. A charge of a more abhorrent na-
ture never could be made against any in-
dividual, to say nothing of its being
brought against a queen. If this charge
rested upon evidence which could be sup-
ported, it certainly formed a case for in-
dispensable inquiry, and he agreed that
it was for the honour of the Crown and
the welfare of the country, that the inqui-
ry should proceed in the way calculated
to secure the honour and interests of both.
But by whom were their lordships told
that the evidence could be supported? By
those ministers who were willing to con-
tinue her majesty in the character of
queen-to make arrangements for her in-
troduction to foreign courts-and to re-
commend their ambassadors to pay res-
pect to her. They now told their lord-
ships that the queen was a person liable
to imputations of the most abhorrent na-
ture. They had permitted this conduct
to go on for years, and now they brought
forward the charge with the greatest haste,
leaving it suspended to agitate the country,
and thus compromising not only the dig-
nity of the throne, but the safety of the
state. Her majesty, now standing under
a charge proceeding from such authority,
was placed in a situation that no one be-
fore her ever stood in. It appeared to be
thought that it would be necessary to sus-
pend the charge, in order to allow time for
the defence; but he did not think that her
majesty would lose any thing by the in-
quiry proceeding immediately; for she
must sustain more injury from the circum-
stance of this report being promulgated
to the world, than she could gain advan-
tage from any delay for procuring evi-
dence. As the case now stood, she had
no means of knowing the characters of the
witnesses that were to be brought against
her; even the name of the menial servant,
with whom the adulterous intercourse
was said to have taken place, was not
mentioned. In this situation the charge
was to stand against her for months; and
then perhaps she would have, after all, to
meet the investigation with very imperfect
means of defence. He thought that jus-
tice required that her majesty should be
forthwith furnished by ministers with a
distinct statement of the charges, and a
list of the witnesses on whose authority
they were made. He concluded by say-
ing that his object in rising was merely to
enter his protest against a course of pro-


ceeding that seemed to violate every prin-
ciple of justice.
The Earl of Harrorvby thought that the
noble earl might have abstained from say-
ing any thing until his noble friend had
had the opportunity, to-morrow, of ex-
plaining the course of proceeding which
he thought should be adopted. He could
assure their lordships that he as deeply
regretted the necessity of the proceeding,
and as anxiously desired to avoid agitating
the public mind, as the noble earl or any
other person ; but he thought it requisite
to make one or two observations on what
had fallen from the noble earl. He had
accused his majesty's government with
having committed a great act of injustice
by the course which had been pursued.
If that course was injustice, their lordships
were completely accomplices in it. The
arguments of the noble earl and his friends
were stated to be unanswerable ; but
those who were convinced by those un-
answerable arguments had not thought fit
that the public should know how large
their numbers were. As to the incon-
venience to the accused person, of which
so much had been said, how was it to be
avoided ? Every regard had been had to
the strictest impartiality inlaying the pro-
ceedings before the committee. But if
any member of that House had risen to
propose a measure similar to that which
was the object of the committee, would
their lordships have allowed him to open
his mouth ? When the call from the ac-
cused person for trial had been so strong-
ly made, there was no other mode of pro-
ceeding left. Before the call was made,
the committee had been appointed, and
then their lordships did not think it con-
sistent with propriety or justice to change
their course. But it was said, his majes-
ty's ministers were highly blameable for
not having themselves instituted a pro-
ceeding like that which it was now pro-
posed to institute on the recommendation
of the committee. And yet what the no-
ble earl contended ought to have been
done before, he now wished to delay ; and
alleged that to proceed would be danger-
ous to the tranquillity of the country.
He could assure the House for himself,
that if there were any part of the conduct
of his majesty's ministers to which they
could look back with more particular sa-
tisfaction than another, he believed it to
be that which had been employed in en-
deavours to avoid, by some compromise,
the public discussion of the present subt-


JULY 4, 1820. [170




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