• TABLE OF CONTENTS
HIDE
 Title Page
 Advertising
 Table of Contents
 List of the House of Commons
 List of the King's Ministers
 November, 1803
 December, 1803
 February, 1804
 March, 1804
 List of Acts
 Index














Group Title: parliamentary debates from the year 1803 to the present time.
Title: The parliamentary debates from the year 1803 to the present time
ALL VOLUMES CITATION THUMBNAILS PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00073531/00001
 Material Information
Title: The parliamentary debates from the year 1803 to the present time
Series Title: parliamentary debates from the year 1803 to the present time.
Physical Description: 20 v. : ; 23 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Great Britain -- Parliament
Hansard, T. C ( Thomas Curson ), 1776-1833
Publisher: s.n.
s.n.
Place of Publication: London
Manufacturer: T.C. Hansard
Publication Date: November 22, 1803
 Subjects
Subject: Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Great Britain -- 1800-1837   ( lcsh )
 Notes
Dates or Sequential Designation: Vol. 22 (1812)-v. 41 (1819/1820).
Numbering Peculiarities: Covers May/July 1812-Feb. 1820.
General Note: "Published under the superintendence of T.C. Hansard."
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00073531
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 08273993
lccn - sn 85062628
 Related Items
Preceded by: Cobbett's parliamentary debates during the ... session of the ... Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the Kingdom of Great Britain ...
Succeeded by: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)

Table of Contents
    Title Page
        Page ii
    Advertising
        Page iii
        Page iv
    Table of Contents
        Page v
        Page vi
        Page vii
        Page viii
        Page ix
        Page x
        Page xi
        Page xii
        Page xiii
        Page xiv
    List of the House of Commons
        Page xv
        Page xvi
        Page xvii
        Page xviii
    List of the King's Ministers
        Page xix
    November, 1803
        Page 1521-1522
        Page 1523-1524
        Page 1525-1526
        Page 1527-1528
        Page 1529-1530
        Page 1531-1532
        Page 1533-1534
        Page 1535-1536
        Page 1537-1538
        Page 1539-1540
        Page 1541-1542
        Page 1543-1544
        Page 1545-1546
        Page 1547-1548
        Page 1549-1550
        Page 1551-1552
        Page 1553-1554
        Page 1555-1556
        Page 1557-1558
        Page 1559-1560
        Page 1561-1562
        Page 1563-1564
        Page 1565-1566
        Page 1567-1568
        Page 1569-1570
        Page 1571-1572
        Page 1573-1574
    December, 1803
        Page 1575-1576
        Page 1577-1578
        Page 1579-1580
        Page 1581-1582
        Page 1583-1584
        Page 1585-1586
        Page 1587-1588
        Page 1589-1590
        Page 1591-1592
        Page 1593-1594
        Page 1595-1596
        Page 1597-1598
        Page 1599-1600
        Page 1601-1602
        Page 1603-1604
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        Page 1611-1612
        Page 1613-1614
        Page 1615-1616
        Page 1617-1618
        Page 1619-1620
        Page 1621-1622
        Page 1623-1624
        Page 1625-1626
        Page 1627-1628
        Page 1629-1630
        Page 1631-1632
        Page 1633-1634
        Page 1635-1636
        Page 1637-1638
        Page 1639-1640
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        Page 1657-1658
        Page 1659-1660
        Page 1661-1662
        Page 1663-1664
        Page 1665-1666
        Page 1667-1668
        Page 1669-1670
        Page 1671-1672
        Page 1673-1674
        Page 1675-1676
        Page 1677-1678
        Page 1679-1680
        Page 1681-1682
        Page 1683-1684
        Page 1685-1686
        Page 1687-1688
        Page 1689-1690
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        Page 1693-1694
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        Page 1699-1700
        Page 1701-1702
        Page 1703-1704
        Page 1705-1706
        Page 1707-1708
        Page 1709-1710
        Page 1711-1712
        Page 1713-1714
        Page 1715-1716
        Page 1717-1718
        Page 1719-1720
        Page 1721-1722
        Page 1723-1724
        Page 1725-1726
        Page 1727-1728
        Page 1729-1730
        Page 1731-1732
        Page 1733-1734
        Page 1735-1736
        Page 1737-1738
        Page 1739-1740
        Page 1741-1742
        Page 1743-1744
        Page 1745-1746
        Page 1747-1748
        Page 1749-1750
        Page 1751-1752
        Page 1753-1754
        Page 1755-1756
        Page 1757-1758
        Page 1759-1760
        Page 1761-1762
        Page 1763-1764
        Page 1765-1766
        Page 1767-1768
        Page 1769-1770
        Page 1771-1772
        Page 1773-1774
        Page 1775-1776
        Page 1777-1778
        Page 1779-1780
        Page 1781-1782
        Page 1783-1784
        Page 1785-1786
        Page 1787-1788
        Page 1789-1790
        Page 1791-1792
        Page 1793-1794
        Page 1795-1796
        Page 1797-1798
        Page 1799-1800
        Page 1801-1802
        Page 1803-1804
        Page 1805-1806
        Page 1807-1808
        Page 1809-1810
        Page 1811-1812
        Page 1813-1814
        Page 1815-1816
        Page 1817-1818
        Page 1819-1820
        Page 1821-1822
        Page 1823-1824
        Page 1825-1826
        Page 1827-1828
        Page 1829-1830
        Page 1831-1832
        Page 1833-1834
        Page 1835-1836
        Page 1837-1838
        Page 1839-1840
        Page 1841-1842
        Page 1843-1844
        Page 1845-1846
        Page 1847-1848
        Page 1849-1850
        Page 1851-1852
        Page 1853-1854
        Page 1855-1856
        Page 1857-1858
        Page 1859-1860
        Page 1861-1862
        Page 1863-1864
        Page 1865-1866
        Page 1867-1868
        Page 1869-1870
        Page 1871-1872
        Page 1873-1874
        Page 1875-1876
        Page 1877-1878
        Page 1879-1880
        Page 1881-1882
        Page 1883-1884
        Page 1885-1886
        Page 1887-1888
        Page 1889-1890
        Page 1891-1892
        Page 1893-1894
        Page 1895-1896
    February, 1804
        Page 993-994
        Page 995-996
        Page 997-998
        Page 999-1000
        Page 1001-1002
        Page 1003-1004
        Page 1005-1006
        Page 1007-1008
        Page 1009-1010
        Page 1011-1012
        Page 1013-1014
        Page 1015-1016
        Page 1017-1018
        Page 1019-1020
        Page 1021-1022
        Page 1023-1024
        Page 1025-1026
        Page 1027-1028
        Page 1029-1030
        Page 1031-1032
        Page 1033-1034
        Page 1035-1036
        Page 1037-1038
        Page 1039-1040
        Page 1041-1042
        Page 1043-1044
        Page 1045-1046
        Page 1047-1048
        Page 1049-1050
        Page 1051-1052
        Page 1053-1054
        Page 1055-1056
        Page 1057-1058
        Page 1059-1060
        Page 1061-1062
        Page 1063-1064
        Page 1065-1066
        Page 1067-1068
        Page 1069-1070
        Page 1071-1072
        Page 1073-1074
        Page 1075-1076
        Page 1077-1078
        Page 1079-1080
        Page 1081-1082
        Page 1083-1084
        Page 1085-1086
        Page 1087-1088
        Page 1089-1090
        Page 1091-1092
        Page 1093-1094
        Page 1095-1096
        Page 1097-1098
        Page 1099-1100
        Page 1101-1102
        Page 1103-1104
        Page 1105-1106
        Page 1107-1108
        Page 1109-1110
        Page 1111-1112
        Page 1113-1114
        Page 1115-1116
        Page 1117-1118
        Page 1119-1120
        Page 1121-1122
        Page 1123-1124
        Page 1125-1126
        Page 1127-1128
        Page 1129-1130
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        Page 1153-1154
        Page 1155-1156
        Page 1157-1158
        Page 1159-1160
        Page 1161-1162
        Page 1163-1164
        Page 1165-1166
        Page 1167-1168
        Page 1169-1170
        Page 1171-1172
        Page 1173-1174
        Page 1175-1176
        Page 1177-1178
        Page 1179-1180
        Page 1181-1182
        Page 1183-1184
        Page 577-578
        Page 579-580
        Page 581-582
        Page 583-584
        Page 585-586
        Page 587-588
        Page 589-590
        Page 591-592
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        Page 597-598
        Page 599-600
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        Page 603-604
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        Page 627-628
        Page 629-630
        Page 631-632
    March, 1804
        Page 633-634
        Page 635-636
        Page 637-638
        Page 639-640
        Page 641-642
        Page 643-644
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        Page 669-670
        Page 671-672
        Page 673-674
        Page 675-676
        Page 677-678
        Page 679-680
        Page 681-682
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        Page 689-690
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        Page 701-702
        Page 703-704
        Page 705-706
        Page 707-708
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        Page 1025-1026
        Page 1027-1028
        Page 1029-1030
        Page 1031-1032
        Page 1033-1034
        Page 1035-1036
        Page 1037-1038
        Page 1039-1040
        Page 1041-1042
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        Page 1063-1064
        Page 1065-1066
        Page 1067-1068
        Page 1069-1070
        Page 1071-1072
        Page 1073-1074
        Page 1075-1076
        Page 1077-1078
        Page 1079-1080
        Page 1081-1082
        Page 1083-1084
        Page 1085-1086
        Page 1087-1088
        Page 1089-1090
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        Page 1173-1174
    List of Acts
        Page 1175-1176
    Index
        Page 1177-1178
        Page 1179-1180
        Page 1181-1182
        Page 1183-1184
Full Text




Parliamentary D ctes

-J FROM

THE YEAR

----- 1803

TO THE PRESENT TIME:


'FORMING A CONTINUATION OF THE WORK ENTITLED .
THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY, OF ENGLAND FROM THE .EARLIEST '
PERIOD TO THE YEAR 1803."


PUBLISHED UNDER THE SUPERINTENDENCE OF
T. C. HANSARD. '


VOL. I.
COMPRISING THE PERIOD
FROM
THE TWENTY-SECOND DAY'OF NOVEMBER
T O -
THE TWENTY-NINTH DAY OF MARCH
1803-1804.
-16


LONDON: .
LINTED FOR LONGMAN, HURST, TREES, ORME, AND BROWN~; CR
J. BOOKER; J. BOOTH; J. RICHA4DSON; BLACK, PARRY, AND CO.; C JEFFERY;
J. HATCHARD; J. RIDGWAY; BUDD AND CALKIN; J. RODWELL; R. H. EVA\S;
AND
T. c. HANSARD, PRINTER, PETERBOROUGH-COURT, FLEET-STREET
1812.







ADVERTISEMENT. I;



'N presenting this- Volume to the Public, it seems necessary to say a 4e
'l wordss as to the plan of publication, and also as to the nature and arange-
ent of the contents, especially as there is so, very great a difference
between this work and every other, which, under a similar title' or pro-
essing a. similar purpose, has heretofore been uhertakenn this
cotmntrj.---With regard'to the first point, it is, as. in the, present
stance, intended, always to divide the matter, arising, in each Session,
to,two Volumes, the first to comprise an. account of a tihSespscdn,'s
0om the opening of the Session to the'Easter Recess, and the second to
f comprise the proceedings from the end of that Recess to thd close bf the
Session.-- The nature and arrangement of the contents are ,as follow:
(. Two Tables of Contentsi; one rlatig toihe House of Lords, .the other
+ the House of Commons, each forrAing a brief chronicle of the,whole of,'
.proceedings in the two Houses respectively ;, to which Table is added
Si t er, pointing out where the accounts and other documents are, to be
uhnd. 1I. A complete List of the Members of the Parliament, as it ,
ed at the opening, of the Session; as also' aList of' HislMali s -
mabinet, and certain other Ministers, as it stood at the same time. III. T"r "
body of the work contains, in due chronological order, all the Debates; ,
.,Linute's of minor Proceedings, Messages, Motions, Lists of M1noritie .
:c. IV. j:' a part of the Volume pointed out by the'Table. ofO Coiitets;'
.ill be found all the material Accounts, Estimates, Returns,' 8, 8; ,.
Siid before Parliament; together with' -List of the Acts passed' darling
ihe period embraced by the Volume. V. At the close of the Volume
Sre four Indices; viz., two of the Subjects of the several Debates, the one
or the Lords, and the other for the Commons and two of the Names O
pf the several Speakers, fallowing, with regard to the Houses, the same.
order -as before.---The Debates, in this work, are given -at much
greater length, and with much greater precision, than it was ever. before
Attempted to give Parliamentary Debates. Neither care, labour, no.
Expense has been spared. Aid of every useful 'kind has been ,r-.i'.a,
/ l, dand, in most instances, with perfect success. The insertion c.E'c
Substance of the minor Proceedings, .under the denomination o'f
: A ,!2 '
,'s *3

.V .. t'..f ^ i -',^ H





IV : A VETISEM T.. '

will be found v -ulj. 16 'tlh p rli atiiary realer and historian; while.
Sthe selection.. arrangement of the several Accounts and Returns must
b e of ines e value to all- those-whn turn-their attention to subjects of d
ince or political economy, to military or naval affairs, or, indeed, to
i'r.y ub ect connected with the resources of he couintry.- As tfie-&ovr .
a 1, mi'tihe'sfdit aeot half a session, attained. to such an extent of cii-
eia-fion; and sd i tegre of pr-eminence, as filly to warrant the suppo-
sition, ffat f i on'ly completion at all liely to b regarded as a
iauth entie Rlecordof the Legislative Proceedings of the present time, so the
Editor confideAtly'assures ti&e Pullic f hat success, lioweever conspicous .o
arid flattering, will produce no relaxation hr hii labour or iis cwt h' but
i t it wil in fe coniiary, operate a a stiiraiutsto the attiifl ent iof
WtIT greater 6 icti i




"- Drections to the Reader and the Binde7r.

; *The Sheets comprising the first 5-76 pages of thisVolume were printed
w,ith.a view of fomming 'a part of the Supplement to the 4th and 5th Volumes of
e .Political Register, Owing to the new arrangement, they how, in order to-
avpicLrepri ting, formn a .part of this Volume, and therefore, the following di .
sections inust be carefukly attended to.

The Volume begins with Signature *L page 1521, and goes on to Signa
b=e LII page 1904., Then follows Signature *A page .999, to Signature .
S.page .: 136..After which-,the folios commencing with p. 577, run on reg.ulrly)to'
be end of the Volume.





for, A .:.: -,., . .




..,- .. -. -. -












..... " O R D S : .

HOUSE OF LORDS.

-18-3. 'Pfge
Xov. Z2, King's Speech.- Marquis of Slig,, Earl of Itmeick -
Cornimittee of- Privileges.-Ldrd Haiwkesbury, .The Lord Chancellor,
Lord Walsingham ..- 53t
Dec. '~. Parochial Clergy.-Duke of Norfolk : -' 1580
9. Volunteers.-Earl Darnley, Lord Hawkesbiry,. Earl Darnley, Lord
Hawkesbury -6 -..x6p
Bank of England Restriction Bill.-Lord King Lord Hawkesbury, Lord
King, Lord .lawkesbury, Lord Grenville 167
i., Expiring Laws' Bill.-Earl of Suffolk, Lord Hawkesbury, ;60
Curates' Relief Bill.-Earl of Suffolk i.6o -
I Irish Habeas Corpus and Maftial Law Bill.--Lord Hawkesbury, Earl.
of Suffolk, Lord King, Marquis of Sligo, Lord- Grenville, Earl of' .
Limerick, The Lord Chancellor, Earl Darnley, Lord Hobart 1760
S3; Bank of England Restriction Bill.-Lord Grenville, Lord Hawkesbury'i, '
Lord King, Marquis of Sligo,- Duke of Norfolk, Lord Grenyille,
S Lord Hawkesbury - .- 8'';
16, yolLnteer Exemltion Bill--Earl of Suffolk, Lord Hobart, Earl of Suf- "
f" "olk, Loid Hawkesbu'ry, IEarl of Suffolk-, The Lord Chantiellor,
Lord Grenville, Lord Hobart, Lord Rbinfey, Lord Hobart, Earl ,
,Darnley, Lord Hawkesbury; Duke of Clarence -- ,874
. volunteer Exempiion Bill.-Earl Fitzwilliaii,' Lord Hawkesbury, Earl
SFitz william, Lord Grantley, The Lord Chancellor, Earl Fitz-
S ......... william, The Lord Chancellor x884o

eb. 7. Queen Anne's Annuities.-Earlof Suffolk,; ord Hawkesbury oa8
S Volunteers.-Earl of Suffolk, Lord Walsingham, The Lord Chancellor,
SEarl of Suffolk, Lord Hawkesbury, Earl of Suffolk, - 0- ros9.
o ,holrnondeley. Estate Bill.-The Lord Chancellor, Lord Alvanley - oo
9. Irish Pensions and Salaries at par.-Lord King, Earl of Limerick, Earl ..
Sof Suffolk-, Lord Hawkesbiry, Earl of Suffolk,. Lord Hobart -f 74.
Mareh. r; His 1Majesty's Indisposition.-Lord King, Lord Hawkesburyi Lor ..
renville, Lord King, 'Lord Hawkesbury, Lord Carlisle, Lori .
Fitzwilliam, The Lord Chancellor, Lord Carnarvon, Lord Greri-. .
.ville, The Lord.Chaicell6r, Lord'Greniville -' 6-
Bank and Privrate Paper.-.Lord Grenville, Lord Hawkesbury, Lord.-
Grenville; Loid 'Hawvkesbitry, Lord Carnarvon, Lord Hobart, Lord -
Grenville, The Lord Chancellor, Earl Spencer, Lord Hobart, The '
S Lord.Chancellor : -' 64
.. patholic Correspondence.-Earl of Suffolk ,- -. 697'
is Majesty's Indiposition.-The Lord Chancellor .- 6-, 697
irish Bank Restriction BilL-Lord King, Erl'of. Limerick, Lord King,
o id Grenville,- Lor'd 'Hawkesbury, Earf' of Carnarin, L.ord
S. Auckland, Lord Carysfort, The Lord Chancellor ..69
-6.- Irish Bank Restriction Bill.-Lord Auckland, Lord Hawkejbury Lor
/King, Lord Carletpn, The Lord Chancellor, Lord King "i.o
laikesbury, fal arnle -. -
./' ', .. Irul iny Bill.-Dukeof Norfolk .- ..:
.- -- His Majesty's indisp'osition.-Earl Fitzwilliam, The Lor9d anc-llo,16r.i
4' : ell s Lxitery B fi.-Ear! of Suffolk, The Lord Cha'ellor -
3. Vl Voluteer Cosolidation Bill.-Lord flawkesbury, Eatl hncer, Lord
a: wkesbury, Earl, Fitzwiliaif, Earl Darnley, Lord "awkesbuitry


\-I





vi .0F- CONTENTS.
S4. age-
-'5arch 23. LorAabarroaby, Earl of Carnarvon, The Lord Chancellor, Earl
I.ley, Lord Walsingham .- -' zoo0
26. Ir ci ia.-Lord Hawkesbury, Earl of Limerick, Lord Carleton 1.017
Vol'uIr Cnisolidation Bill.-Lord Hawkesbury. Lord Grenville, Lord
H '." awkesbury, Earl Spencer, Lord Hawkesbury - or17
r.. h Salaries at par.-Earl of Limerick, Lord King - oa8
161 i7sy. Volunteer Consolidation Bill.-Lord iHavkesbury, Earl of Carnarvon, 1
Lord Ellenborough, Earl of Carnarvon, Eatl of Morton, Earl of
Carnarvon, Lord Hobart, Lord King, Lord. Boringdon, Bishop of i
SLlandaff, Earl Darnley, Earl of Fife, Lord Romney, Duke of So0.
merset, Lord Grenville, The Lord Chancellor, Lord- Grenville,
S Earl Spencer, Lord Hobart, Duke of Montrose, Earl of West.
moreland, Lord Auckland, Lord Harrowby, Lord Hawkesbury- zo0S
28. Irish Militia Offer Bill.-Lord Hawkesbury, Duke of Montrose, Mar-
S, quis'of Sligo, Earl of Limerick, Lord Grenville, Lord Hobart,
S. Earl Darnley, Lord Grenville, Lord Jilawkesbury -, 10
Priests' Orders Bill.-Bishop of St. Asaph- - 1058


HOUSE OF COMMONS.

41Zi03.
Nov.. i2. King's Speech.-The Speaker, Hon. Cropley -Ashley, Mr. Burland,
Mr. Fox, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir F. Burdett -" 33 ,
23.. Waterford Election- Committee.-Mr. C. Dundas, The Speaker l5
/. Bostn -Election Petition.--Mr. Ellison, The Speaker 155 .
Renewed Election Petitions.-The Speaker, Chancellor of the Exche- .. :.
quer .. 1 5 3 .. .-
Address on the King's Speech.-Hon. Cropley Ashley,' Mr. Windham z554
1, .. -Waterford Election Committee.-Mr. C. Dundas, Chancellof of the
Exchequer, "Mr. C. Grant, The Speaker, Chancellor of the Ex-
S-- chequir, Mr. Ward, Mr.. Tierney, Mr. Bragge ,- z566
-Desertion of Seamen.-Mr. arvis 9* - ,. 63
:Z," S28. Property Tax.-Mr. Alderman Combe, Mr. Vansittart 565
S Barracks.-Admiral Berkeley, Mr. Vansittart - 5
29. Private Petitions.-Chancellor of the Exchequer 1566'
S Waterford Election Committee.-Mr. Deverell, The Speaker,, Mr. De-
verell, The Attorney General .- 1567
Barracks.-Admiral Berkeley, The Secretary at War -t -. 1568
S30 East-India Bonds.-tord Castlereagh 5- .* 570
Bank of England Restriction Bill.-Chancellof of the Etchequer, Mr. ;
J : Jekyll,. The Chancellor of the Exchequer - '- 157x
Waterford Election Committee.-Mr. Deverell, The Speaker, Mr. De- .
S', verell, The Attorney-General, Mr. W. Dundas, Mr. Bragge, The
Speaker - 1573
Dec. z. Stipendiary Curates' Bill.-Sir William Scott '- - -1577
Curates' Relief Bill.-The Chancellor of the Exchequer 1578
Fortification of Liverpool.-Mr. Dent, Chancellor of the Exchequer,
.,r .C reevey, Mr. Dent, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Dent' 1578.8
Relief Bill.-Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Robert ux -
- Chancellor of the Exchequer 3- - - 1583
.'. E .Eonequer Bills.-Chancellor of the Exchequer 1584
,^i 'Habeas Corpus Suspension Act.-Mr. Secretary Yorke, Hon. '
..Hutchinson, General'LoftUs, Mr. Hawthorn, Earl Temple,:
Lord Archibald Hamilton, :Mi. Burroughs, The Speaker, Mr.
Burroughs, Lord Castlereagh - hL :.
issf Martral Law Bill.-Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Burroughs, Mr. Cot-
'ry; Mr. John CladdiasTeresford 1599
Irish Bank Restriction Bill.-Mr. Corry, - . 6o4 '




S- ... *. 4

S., .TAfl'tW. CON'f#' ,*. *.

*1803. a Pag
,ec. Oats Distillalion Bill.-Mr. Corry,,Mr! Francis,`Mr. r y -. :,6o
EasIndia Bonds,-Lord Castlreagh .Mr,,Gregor, Mr lansittart 609
Irish MartiM Law Bill.-Mr. William -Elhof, Mr. Secret ,Yorke, Ctol.
Craiffr.d, Mr, Francis, Lord Ca.:tleieagh, Col. Craufurd, Mlr. Pole,
Col. Craufu'rd, Mr. Pole, Mr. Windham, Chancellor ,fibhe Ex- ,.
chequer, Mr. Wilberforce,, Dr. Laurence, general aoftus, The
Attorney-General, Mr. Windham, Hon. C; H; Hutcuhison z609.
Bank'of England Restriction Bill.--Sir W, Elford, The Chaqcellgr of '
the Exchequer 16
'6. Irish Bank Rpstrictiofi Bil.-.-Lord Archibald Hamilton, Mr. Corry 1653.' ,
'Order for Col. Grant's Attendance.-Col. F. W.. Grant, The Speaker,
Mr, Pluner -. 1654 .
East-India Bonds.-Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Dent, Lord Castlereagh, ..
-Mr, Johnstone, Mr. Vansittart, Mr. C. Grant, Mr. W. Dundas, i6j$
7. Irish Martial. Law Bill.-Mr. Wilberforce, Col.-Wood, Mr. Secretary.'
Yorke, Mr. Windham, Mr. Wilberforce, Dr, Laurence, Lord. A.
Hamilton.-Admiral'Berkeley,,Chancellor of the Exchequer, Ad-
miral Berkeley, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr.J, C. Beresford, '
Mr, T. Grenville, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr.Windham 169"
8. ,Naval Inquiry.--Sir W. Elford, Sir C. Pole, Sir W. Elford, Sir C. Pole 1669
Curates' Relief Bill-The Chancellor of the Exchequer' 16790;
'Sierra Leona Company.-Mr. H. Thornton, The Chancellor of the Ex- .
chequer, Mr. FH. Thornton, Mr. Dent 16
p, Army Estimates.-The Secretary at Wa', Mr. Windham, Mr. Secretary
Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Windham, Mr. 'T.
Grenville, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the' Ex-
chequer, Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Secre-
itary Yorke, Mr, Fox, Admiral Berkeley, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr.
.: '. Corry, -Lord De Blaquiere, Hon. C. H. Hutchinson,, Mr. Pitt 1 677
o. Voluh eer Exemption Bill.-Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Curwen, Mr..
Hiley Addington, .Mr. Secretary Yorke, Thp Chancellor. of the '
S Exchequer - ,-
.. Report on ,the Army Estimates. -Colonel Craufurd, Mr. Rose, Mr. Se-
cretary Yorke, Mr, Pitt, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Cur-
-wen, Mr. Pitt, Lord Castlereagh, .Mr. Pitt, Lord Castlereagh, Mr.
i Pitt, The Chancellor, of the Exchbquer, Mr. Windham, Mr .
Erskine, Mr. Windham, Mr. Erskine, Mr. Pitt, Mr.- Courtenay, .
D Laurence, Lord Castlereagh, Dr. Laurence, The Attorney-Ge.~
neral, Mr, Windham, The Secretary at War -- 178 -
Volunteer Exemption Bill.-Dr. Laurence, Mr. Secretary Yorke 1823
'Volunteer Exemption. Bill,..-Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr.Rose,
Mr, Secretary Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Sir W. Young, The Attorney-Gene- -
ral,Dr. Laurence, Lord G.L. Gower, Mr. Tierney, Dr. Laurence,
Mr. Rose, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Rose, Mr. Giles, Mr, Secre-
S try Yorke, Sir W. Young, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr.
SR ..ose, Mr. Giles, The Attorney.General, General Norton, The
Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir W. Wynne, Mr. Pattison,: Col. ,
SCraufurd, Mr. Secretary Yorke ,-- .. -, 1839
S" *n, teer Exemption Bill.-Mr. Wiildham, Mr. H ley Addingtong Mr.
: Windham, Mr. Alderman- Price, Mr. Secretary Yoike, Col. Crau-
Sfurd, Sir W. Young, Col. Calcrafi, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mt.riles,
'Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Giles, Sir W. Young, Dr.. urance,.
T he Chancellor of'the Exchequer, Mr. Windham -.. z s8.4
2 Trihh import Duties' Bill.-Mr. Corr .. .. 88
Volunteer Exemption Bill.-Mr. Secretary Yorke,. The Speaker, Mr.
W ndliam, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Calcraft, The Chancellor of
r .. the Exchequer, Lord Folkestone. The Chancellor of the Excher-
Sq'er, The Speaker, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Wind-
Pn t. .qies ? Col, Calcraft, Lord Flkestone: T

. .. " .. .. . . . ..... / i,,. d ^




,; . -


S18. age -
Feb. Middl.e. 4 Election Patition.-Mr. Fq:, The Chancellor tof t Exche- .
S.. Mr, Fox - 993
,-J 6 V4idd lex'Election Petition,-Mf.'Fox, The.Chancellor ofi the Exche-
.quer, Mr. Francis, The Chancellor of the Exchequeir, Mr.T. Gren- ig
S '. ville, Mr. Jekyll, Lord A. 'Hamilton, Mr.. Tieiney, Mr. Serjeant
Best, The Aitornes-General, Mr.-Fo.nblanque, Mi. Jarvis, Mr.
,Dallas, Mr. Deverell, Mr. Sheridan, Sir W. Pulteney, Mr. Fox, The -
6. Speaker, Mr. Fox - - 996 -
6. Barracks.-Col. Calcraft, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, The Se-
cretary at War - -. IC28
.- Conduct of-General Fox.-Admiral Berkeley, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Sir J.
Wroftesley - 1033
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.--Mr. Sec. Yorke, 'Mr. Sheridan, Lord
S..' Castlereagh, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Windham, Col. Eyre, .Sir J.
SWrottesley, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Sec. Yorke,,Mr..
S Whitbread, Mr. Sturges 'Bourie, The Attorney-General, Mr.,
Sturges Bourng, Mr. T. Greiiville, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Hob-
house, Mr. T.. Grenville, Dr. Laurence, Mr. Sec. Yorke, The
Chancellor qf the Exchequer, Sir W. Young 1033
Middlesex Election Committee.-Lord Marshamn ,1074
Stirling Electiopi Petition.-Mr. Creevey, The Chancellor, of the Exche-
quer 1074.
'. Motion for Papers.-Mr. T. Grenville -. .- 1074 '
S Stirling,Petition.-Mr. Creevey, The Speaker, Sir T. Metcalfe .1079
13. Slave Trade,--Mr. Wilberforce .- .- o1080.
Cotton Manufacturers.-The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Rose 108o '
Irish Balk Restriction Bill -Mr. Corry, Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Corry,
S .. ,o -', Lord.H. Petty, Mr. Vansitgart, Mr. Foster, Mr. H. Thoriton, Lord .
Castlereagh, Mr. Foster, Lord Castlereagh, Mr.. Corry, Mr. John- ,
stone, Lord Castlereagh, Lord Dunio, Mr. Alexander - i6o8';,
Greenland Fishery Bill.-Mr VYrisittart - 1098 '
S. 7.' Irish Insurecdion.-Sir John Wrottesley - 1099
i o. Irish Bank Restriction Bill.-Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Corry, Lord A.:Ha-
ilton Mr. Curwyen, Sir J. Newport, Mr.Fpster 5-ot
Irish Militia. -Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster o110
.4.' Irish Fxchange' and Currency.-Mr. Foster --..' i r
7. Property Tax-.EarlTemple, The Sec. at War, EarlTemple, The Sec.
at.War, EarlTemple -.. ,i '
His 'Majesty's Indispositiop-Sir R. Lawley, The Chancellor of the Ex-
S. chequer, Sir R. Lawley, Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the-Exche-
quer, Mr. pitt, Mr. Windham, ,The. Chancellor of the x-cheqq r,
S. Mr. Canning, Mr. Grey, The Chancellor of the-Exchequer, Sir
R. Lawley, Mr. T, Grenville, The Phancellor of iheExchequer,
S. Mr. T. Grenville -' s1 -
-olunteer Consolidation Bill.-mMr. T. Grenville, Lord O6sulston, Mr.
S..Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, vir. Windham, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Pitt,
Mr. Whitblred, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Fox, The ChancelGlr of the' '
chequer, Mr. Deit, Mr, Grey, Capt. Markhqm -. 140
Irish Ilnsurrection.-Sir John Wrottesley - --, 1175 .
: 9. Permanent Taxes.--Mr, Johnstone, The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
S" '" Mr. Vansittart .- .- 1178
S..y.i 'aracks.-Admiral Berkeley, The Sec. at War 4, ,ij.
. .' ri* h hSalaries at par.-Lord A. .amilto0, Mr. Corry - '7-
Irish Bank Restr;ctiori Bill.--Mr.Elliot, Mr, Alexander '-. 179
Property Tax.-Mr. Dent,'The Chancellor of the Exchequer, iMr. De t,,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer .. -. 17 -
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.-Mr. Sec. Yorke Mr. 'Fraicis, Col. Crau,, a
furd, Gen. Maitland, ,Col. Craufura, Admiral Berkeley, Capt.
Markham, Col. Eyre, Sir W.Yung, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Fox, Mr. .
litt, Mr. Fox, 1VW. Windhamn Mr. P tt -b - 8 ~ -







Pa .e ... ,. . ..
March 2. Irish Salarie'at par.-Lord A. Hamiitoi,,Mr; Corry, L Hamiltob,
Mr. Corry, Lord Falkestone 647 -
Irish Exchange and Currency;-Mr.- Fo:ter; Mr. Brogd;.. Mr. G.
S Ponsonb, Mr. Corry, Mr. Podter, Mr. Ciry, Lord i. PeLd Lord
/ Castlereagh, Mr. Dick, Sir J. Newport, L6trd A. Hailto r. t .
S Alexander, Mr. Fox, Mr. Dick '- 49:
His Majesty's Indisposition.-Mr. Grey, The Chancellor of the Ex'h- ..
quer, Mr. Grey '-' .- -. -: 663
Irish Revenue Acts.-Mr. Corry, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Corry 664
Mutiny Bill.-.The, Sec.'at War. - -- 6
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.-Mr. Sec. Yorke, Sir W. Young, Mr.
Pitt, Mr. Windh'am, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Sec. Yorke,-M. 'Curwih,
Col. Craufurd, Mr. Pitt, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir
W. Young, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sec. Ydrk9., Mr. Pit,
Mr. Curwen, Mr. Fulter, Sir J. Wrottesley, Mr. C. Wynne, Mr.*..
Sec. Yorke .- 66
3. Irish Revenue Acts.-Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster, Mr..Corry, Mr. Foster,
Mr. Corry, Mr. Datvson, Mr. Alexander, Mi. Atkins, Mr. HaW-
thorne, Lord De Blaquiere, Lord Castlereagh, Lord De Blaquiere,
Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster, Mr. Dawson 68
.. Malt Dutfes.-Mr. Western, The Chancellor of the Exchequer 714
6. Navy. Board.-Sir William Elford -
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.-Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Lord Castle-'
reagh, Mr, Rose, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Raise, Mr,
C. Wynne, Sir W. Geary, Lord Ossulston, Mr. Pitt, Sir W. "El*
ford, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Gen,. Tarleton, Mr. Sec. York.e, Gen., TdrMe.
ion, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Pitt, -Mr.
C. Wynne, Lord W. Russell, The Chancellor of'the Exchlequer,
S .Mr. Rose, Mr.-Lascelles, Mr. Tierney, Mr. ,Pitt, Mlyr. Sec. Yorke;
Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sec. Yorke, The Chancellor of the Exche.
quer, Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Raine,, Mr. Fox;'Mr. Sec. Yorke,.
Mr. Fox, The Attorney-General, Mr. Fox, Lord W. Russell, Dr.
Laurence, Mr. Pitt, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord -
Cavendish, Mr,-Fox, Mr. Pitt, Sir R. Lawley, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sec.
Yorke, Sir W. W. Wynne, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, The Chan-
; cellor' of the Exchequer, Gen. Maitland, Mr. Pitt, Sir W. Pul-
teney, Mr. Windham .- '- -
'. *Military Officers' Incom.e Tax.--Lord Temple, The,Chancellor of the
Exchequer, Lord 'Temple, - 736-
,-Irish Insurrection.-Sk- John Wrottesley, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Can-
ning, Mr. Archdall, Mr..-Dawson, Earl Temple, General Tarleton,,
Mr., Sec. Yorke,, Mr., Fox, Mr. Dallas, Dr. Laurence, The At-
S torney-General, Lord De Blaquiere, Mr.Windham, Mr. Hawthorn,
Mr.Windham, Mr. Alexander, Mr. Fox, The Speaker, Mr. Wind-
ham, Mr. Tierney, Mr., Fox, Mr. Grey, Mr. Tierney, The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, Gen. Tarleton, Col. Calcraft, Mr. Dent,
Hon. C. H. Hutchinson, Sir J.'Wrottesley "' 737
9. Irish Duties Bill'.-Hbn. C. H. Hutchinson, 'Mr. Ker, Mr. J. Latouche,
Sir J. Newport, Mr. Hawthorne, Mr. Coriry Mr. Dawson, The
Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. G. Ponsonby, Mr. Alexander,
Mr. Foster, Mr. Pitt, The Speaker, Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster, L6rd
.Castlereagh, Mr. Rose, Mr. Corry, Mr. Canning, Mr: Fox, The
SChancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Foster, The Chancell.ir of the
Exchequer, Mr. Fox, Mr. Ormsby,' Mr. W. PonsonLv, Mr. Pitt 8to
Iri h'Militia Familiel.-Mr. Fokter, Mr. Sec. Yorke .- 8 -
Lord Kilwarden's Family.-Mr. George Ponsonby, The Chancellor of .
,.the ExcheqUer - : -- .-
r His Majesty's indisposition.-M1Ir. Grey - 823
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.-Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr; .
Pitt, The Chancellor of the "Exchequer, Mr. Pitt, The Chancel.
'I VaAI.b-





.'4 F .CONT *<1


March 9.' rlo the Exchequer Gen. Loftus, Mr. Pit.,. Mr. W. Dickinsoi, :-
H. Addington,,Mr. Windham, Mr. Pitt, Mr.' C. Wynne, Mr.
"" ... Stanhope. Mr, Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. G. Vansittart, The.
Chancellor of'the Exchequer,-Mr. Pitt, Sir R. ,Buxton, Mr. F.
Fourne, Mr. Biarland, Mr.. Hobhouse, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. H.
Lascelles, Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt - 823
S" Irish Duties Bill.-Mr. Cprry, Mr. Foster '- - .- 830
: Volunteer Consolidation Bill,-Mr: Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Tierney,
,Col. Eire, Maiq,,of Titchfield, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Lascelles,
Mr. Pilt, The Attorney-General, Mr. Pitt.,, The Chancellor of the
Sxchequer : .- 83
l Exchlequer Bills.-The Chancellor of the Exchequer 839
Irish.Duties Bill.-Mr Cprry, Mr, Foster,, Mr. Corry, The ,Chancellor. '
of the Exchequer, Mr. Foster,,Mr. Jose, The Chancellor of the
-", Exchequer, M;. Rose, Mr. G, Ponsonby, Mr. Ormsby, Mr. Van- .
sittart, Mr. Foster, The. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Foster,
S Mr. Corry, Mr. Burroughs, Mr. Corry, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. G.
r5nsPonby, Mlyr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. J. La-
S . touche - - 839
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.-Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Fox, Thb Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Ward, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Fox,
Gen. Loftus, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Grey, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Grey, Mr,'
"Pitt, Mr Se. York -- 846
S Naval Inquiry:-Mr. Sec. Yotke, Mr. Pitt t - 848
53. Irish Duties Bill---Sir J. Newport, Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry 8r'
4! ,4 Property -Tax.-Mr. Gregor, The Chancellor of the Exchequer -.
War in Ceyldh,- Mr. Creevey, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Creevey,, Lord
.' astlereagh, Mr. Fox, Gen. Maitland, Mr. J. Johnstone, 'Lord
Castlereagh, Col. Calcraft, Lord H. Petty, The Chancellor of ihe5,
Exchequer -. 8
S- ahratta War.-Mr. Francis, Lortd Castiereagh, Mr. Johnstone, Lord
Castlereagh, Mr. Francis - -'. .- .6
Croydon Canal Bill.-Mr. Howard, Mr. Joliffe, Mr. Howard, Lord *, 6
W. Russell, Mr. Somers Cocks, Mr. Hurst, Sir J, Anderson 873
S Naval Inqiry.-Mr. Pitt, Mr. Tierney, Sir C. Pole, Admiral Berkeley, *
SSir E. Pellew, Admiral Berkeley, Mr. Wilberforce, Mr. Sheridan,
Mr. Fox;-The Chanceilor of the Exchequer, Mr. G. Ponsonby, Mr.
S..Bo3rne, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. S. Bourne. Sir .' -
W. Elford, Mr. T. Jones, Capt, Markam, Sir W. Cuitis, Mr. ,-
-' Courtenay, Mr. Burroughs,.Mr. Fonblanque, Mr. Pitt 874 -
19. Volunteer Consolidation Bili.-Mr. Sec. Yorke, Gen. Tarleton, Mr.
Cartwright, Mr. Erskine' The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr.
Whitbread, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. T. Grenvi!le,'The-.peaker, M11r.
Kiiauird, Sir W. Young, The Sec..' at War, Mr. Alexander, '
Mr. Fox, Mr. Sec, Yorke, 'Mr. C. Wynne, Mr. Fox,,The Attor- "
ney-Geperal, Dr. Laurence, Sir J. Wrottesley, Mr. Alderma .
S'Combe, Mr. Pitt Mr; Sheridan, Mr. Pitt, Mr.Windhan, -Mr. Bas-
'-'- tard, Mr. T. Grenville, Mr. Sheridan, Col. C'alcraft, The Clan-
S"' ell.or of te Exchequ'e4r. Sir J. Wrottesley,-Mr. Sec. Yorke, 'Mr.
'.. ..i tt'-.. -. .,- - -, .- 30"
2o. Property Tax.-Earl Temple ., "
'. .Volunteer Consolidation Bill,-Mr. Pitt.Mr.,,Sec. York'e, Mr. Kinnaird, .
Mr.. S. Bourne, Mr. Pitt, Mr, Hiley Addington; Mr. Cainijig, Gdn. .
Grosvenor. Mr. Fonblanquie. 95
Liskeard Election.-M. .W. Dundas, The Speaker" Mr. Pitt, The han-
Scellor of ihe Es(hequer .: 954 "'..
Naval Surplus.-The Chancellor of the L..chcqjer, L.rd Folkestone,
S.Mr. 'Vansittart, Mr., Johnstone,. The Chancellor of the Exich'quer,
Mr. S. Bourne, The Chancellor of the ExcheiUr .'- 9g
p a. ayal Surplus.-Lord Folke.tone, The Ciiacellol fihq Exchequer.- 95







* 04ild. ia- . R-, s: .'; ... -.,. .,., l .' a. .. .ag .
MarchSz. loiedialionxofRussia.- Fox, The Chancellor 'of the -hequer, Mr.
Fox- -- -959
':.. li.. V iteer Co0solidatiori BilL-,Mr. Lanjgtbi,CoL Craufur r ina-
ham, The Chancellor of the'Exchequer, Sir J. Pulteney;, C _C'rar .
flrd, Mr. Dickinson, Mr. Rese,'Mr. Curwe'n, Gen. Loftu .
Tarleton, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. G. Wynne, Sir W. Gear), MA k t
H.- Lascelles - "
S3. Lord Hood's-Claim.-The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mtr. Johnstone,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, -Mr. Rose, The Cltancellor of
the Excheqner ioqi
'Irish Half-pay Officers.-Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Corry o01o
Property Tax Act.--Mr. Vansittaft, the Chancellor of the Exch'euer i oi
Loyalty Loan.-Mr. Dent, The Chancellor.of the Exchequer 2 .t "
Ay'lesbury Election.-The Marquis of Titqhfield, Mr. C. Wynne, The.
Master of. the Rolls, Sir G. Cornewall, the -Marq of Titchfield,
Mr,. C. Wynne, Mr. Rose, Sir J.Newport, Mr. N.Calvert, the '
Chaiicellor of the Exchequer, Mr' Hurst, The Master of the Rol-ls,.
Mr. C. Wynne, Sir R. Buxton, Sir'G. Cornewall "- ,' .o
26.. Bankers',Indemnity Bill.-Mr. Vansittart, Mr. Prinsep, Mr. Dent, Mr .
Vansittart - izoo
King's Message.--The Chancellor of the Exchequor '.-
27. Marine Society Fishery Bill.-Col. Calcraft, Mr.' H. Addington, Mr .
Hurst, Sir W..Geary, Mr. P. Moore, Mr. Prinsep, Mr. Blackburn 1o48.
a3. Irish Militia Families' Bill.-Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry o
M lalf Duties. Lord A. Hamilton, Sir R. Buxton, Mr. Kinnaird io6z
Liskeard Election.--Mr. Pitt, Mr. iSheridan, Mr. Burroughs, 'Mr.
Bragge '..
] Lord Hood's Claim.-The .Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Pierre-
point, Mr. Johnstene, Sir H. Popham, Mr. Creevey, The Chancel. A
lor of the Exchequer, Dr. Laurence, The Chancellor of the Eyche-
'quer, Sir H. Popham, Dr.. Laurence, Mr. W. Smith, Adrral ,
Berkeley, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, 'Mr. Kinnaird, Mr.
Johnstone, Admiral Berkeley, Sir C.'Pole, Mr. Wi'ndham, Mfr.
Kinnaird -' -, '- f66Z
Irish. Militia Offer Bill.-Sir F. Burdett, Mr. Fuller. Mr. Sec. Yorke,.
Mr. Pitt, Mr. Windham, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Bastard, .Dr. Lau-
rence, Hon C., H. Hutchinson. Mr. Banks, Mr.. Windham, Tie
COha'ncellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Windham,' Sir J. Newport, Col.
Calcraft, Mr. Grenville, Mr. Archdall, Lord De Blaquiere, Lord
S Folkestone 7 s
29. Loyalty Loan.-The Chancellor of the Exchequer r'98
Lord Hood's Claim.--Col. Calcraft, Sir J. Nicholl, Col. Wood, Mfr. T.
Jones, Mr. Sheridan, The Master of the Rolls, The Chancellor of .
the Exchequer, Mr. Bankes, Mr. Johnstone, Mrt. Alexander,-. M1r.
Burroughs, Dr. Laurence, The Attorney-General, Dr. Laurence- .99 '


PARLIAMENTARY ACCOUNTS, RETURNS, LISTS, -&c.

F-IN ANC .

Account of the Net Produce of the Permanent Taxes ,in. the Years' arid Quartes-, -
ending the ioth Oct. i8soz and - -. i895
Account of the Public Income of Great-Britain, for the Year ending on the. th of
Jan.x8o4 .- - '- - 0 o .
Account' of the Net Produce of the Permanent Taxe; in Great-Britain in the.
S Years ending 5tli Jan. ,I 8o3 and 1804 - - .. 1109
L..


T 7 lc0


T






": ; i 'T : ,' '. OF C6 TfENTS. '
Page,.
'Account of the. solidated Fund of Great-Britain, for the Year ending: Sth fan. '
58o4 - - i- r
Account tl elrms paid ino, and the Charges upon,, the Consolidated Fund be- I,
tweIIjh Jan. c. o and 5th Jan. 1804 -3
Accl'j the Public Expenditure of Great-Britain, for the Year ending on the
San. 1804 -' a- z120
W npunrt rof the Monies paid out dt'the'Receipt of His Majesty's Exchequer, in the '
Year ending on the 5th Jan. 1804, towards satisfying the Charges of the
Public Funded Debt, of Great-Britain, Leland, 'and Imperial Loans - lir
,.Accmount ,.fthe Total Amount of theSums actually received by the Commissioners
for the Reduction of the National'Debt, in the Year ending 5th,Jan. 1804; ir12
'A.count of the'Interest paid on Exchequer Bills, from 5th Jan. 1863 to 5th Jan.
f804. '123
'.Account 6f the Charges upon the Consolidated Fund, in the Year ending 5th Jan.
r 804, distinguishmn-the same under the Heads of,Ciil.List, Courts of Justice,
S&c. .- 1123
Account. of the Total Amount of such Sums as are incurred upon his Majesty's
Establishment for Civil Affdirs.within Scotland - 1- x25
,Account of the Amount of Bounties paid out of the Revenues.of Customs and Excise
'between ;th Jan. 1803 and 5th Jan. i804; being Payments in the Nature of
.' Anticipation of Exchequer Issues -. 1
'Account of lie Pensions and Parliamentary Grants paid out of the Revenue of the d
A"General Po;t Office for the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804 1 - - 1 25
Account ,hewing how the Public Monies remaining in the Exchequer on Sth Jan.
o803 together with the Monies paid' out of the same during the Year ending "
Sth Jan. 1864, &c..have been applied -
Acc6i6nt of Sums' paid by Receivers General of Land Tax, to the Militia, and for ,.
Deserters' Warrants; and for Bounties. on Hemp and Flax, in the Year end-
ing 5thj in. 1804 ;- - 2.:-
,Accouit, shlewing the Amount of Monies received from his Majesty's Exchequer
i r Naval Services, bet3veen 5th Jan. 1803, and 5th Jan. 1804 27
Account of Monies paid by the Office of Ordnance, in the Year r8o3, for Services
i t home and abroad respectively - -17
Account of Monies paid by the Paymaster 'General of His Majesty's Forces, from
,5th Dec." 892 to 24th Dec. 1803 '- 19
-Accoint of' Loans, Remittances and Advances to other Countries in the Year
S ending 5th'Jan.'1804 - -- 1129
SAcdount,' shewing how the Monies in the Exchequer.on the 5th Jan. 1803, together
with the Monies paid into the same during the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804i
have been actually applied as far as relates to Miscellaneous Services - 129
A cCount of the Unfunded'Debt and Demabnd' outstanding on 5th Jan. i804. .1137 .
A' ccqunt' of ,the. Progress' made in the Redemption- of the Public Funded Drebt of
. Great-Britain, at ist Feb. 1804 - 1139
Account of the Progress made in thle Redemption of the Public Funded Debt of
S' Irland, at I t Feb. 1,804 .- .- 39 4
,'Account of rhe Progress made in the Redemptio'n of the Imperial Debt, at ist
Feb. 1864 -- .- 1141
Account of fhe Amount of Premiums, and Bounties expended for taking and
bringing Fih to London, &c. 1141
At;c6ant of $he Extraordinary -Expenses of the Army from 25th Dec. 1803 to 2th
,Dec. 1804 - -- 1zz43
Accour4of the Amocunt of the Notes of the Bank of Ireland, in Circulation oni the
list Jai., April, Aug. and Oct., Ib0o 3- 1895
.Account of the Amourit of the No'es of the Bank of England, in Circulation, on
the ist of June, Aug., Oct., and a5th Nov-., 1803 - - '897
.-c6unt of the Amoihnt of the Notes of the Bank of Ireland, in Circulation on the
.,i'" st Jain.,,',,ne, and Sep., 1 97- - i': i
pefs respecting Payments made by the Government of Ireland, at'par, to 'all "Per- '
Sons in and Ifrom Ireland, since the.Union ,- '-1163 .






-TAS -'OF CQ^ ^TS;

Papers respecting Lord Hood's Claim to Prize Meney ht Toulon -' -7- .- .7
'Return to an Order of the House of Commons for Ain Account olIe Number of
Districts from which Assessmentt.made byvirtue of the ActLi osingka Duty4'
on Property, have been returned to the Office for Taxes, &c. .- I173


TRADE.

Accoint- of the Quantify in Yards and official Valie of liinen exported from Ire- "
land'in 800o, i, 2, and 3 -. "3.
Account of all Corn, Grain, Meal, Malt, and Flour, imported into and expor ted;
from Ireland, in i799, 1800, 1, 2, and 3 - -
Account of the Value of all Imports into, Exports from Great-Britain, for x8 Years
ending Sth Jan. 1804 - - I 4
Account of the official or rated Value of all Imports into Great-Britain during the
last,7 Years - : ; ; r4-. ,
-Accopnt of the official Value of all Foreign Merchandize exported "frim' .rea-', ..4 .
Britain,. during the last 7 Years - -. - 49
Account of the official Value of all British Produce and Manufactuires exported from"'
; Great Britain,-during the last 7.Years -7
Report of the ,Committee of the House of Commons, to whom the Petition of the
Owners, of Lands in the Islands of Shetland was referred ..-
Resolutions of the Committee of the House of Commons appoiiied to adjust such
.. Differences as may arise between Masters and Workmen engaged in the Cot-
ton Manufactures" -' '- .. .


NAVIGATION.

'Acqounit 'of the Number and Nature of His Majesty's Ships and Vessels, in Cdm-
mission, and of hired armed Ships and Vessels, and of all other Ships, Ves-
sls, and' Boats armed for the Public Service -' .'.- -'1107
Account of the Number of Seamen and Marines in His Majesty's Service, oil the ,
3 st Dec. 1793, i5th March, 1794, and 5Sth March, 1804 I-'i'
Account of the Number of Vessls, with the Amount of their Tonnage, -and the
Number of Men and Boys employed -in navigating the same,-'which entered-
Inwards and cleared Outwards, in the several Ports of England, between
S 5thune, 18o03, and 5th Jan. i8o4 -. i51r
Account- of the Number of Vessels) with the Amount of their Tonnage which,
have been annually built and registered in the several Ports of the British
Empire between Sth Jan. 1802, and 5th Jan. 1804 .. 37
Account of the Number of Vessels, and the Number of Men and Boys employed -
in navigating, the same,' which belonged to the several Ports of the British.
'Empire on 3oth Sept. 1862 and 3 -. - 1137
Account of the Number of Vessels, and the Number of Men and Boys employed ',
in navigating the -same, which entered into and cleared outwards, in the'
several Ports of Scotland between 5th Jan. 1803, and 5th Jan;.~ -8'. 11-39 '


ARMY. '
- -. A '

Abstract of a List of such Yeomanry and Volunteer Corps as have 'been accepted, ".
and placed upon the Establishment in, Ireland - -" r0oo
SAbstract of the Returns of all the Volunteer and Yeomanry Corps of Great-Britain,' :.
whose Services have been accepted by his Majesty, describing each Corps '-i.






xvi tON T. _

Seca Page '
Abstract from the t of Volunteer Corps, which have teen placed on pefinent
Pay and Du ce Nov. o1803 - '- 1141
Abstract iro ,theSubdivision Rolls, -made up from the Returns transmitted to the
Secretea f State for the Home Department -:; ... -
"E iatie; Sum that will possibly be required for the. Service of the Barrack.
parent, in the Year i804. - ..- 1141
al Reiurn. ofthe Royal Army of Reserve made up inDec. 1803 1897
nieral Return of the Royal'Army of Resetve for England and PWLales 1898
General Return of the Royal Army of Reserve for Ireland '899
.List of the Regiments and Companies of the Irish-Militia, which have made a
vohlinary Tender of their Services, to be, employed in any Part of Great-
Britain, during the War -. 17

S:.-" LISTS. .

'LiAt of His Majesty's Ministers at the opening of the Session - six
List f theeMemibers of Parliament at the opening of the Session - xv
'Lists of Acts passed, from the opening of 'the Session. Nov. 22, to the Christmas
Recess, Dec. 2o 183 1903
List of Acts passed from the Meeting after the Christmas Recessi Feb. x, to the
Easter RAeess, March 29, 1804 .- 175
List of the. Minority on Sir John Wrottesley's Motion relative to the Irish Inspr-
section -- 0- 8o -
List`of the Minority on Mr. Greevey's Motion relative to the War in Ceylon - 86 '
List of the Minority orf Mr.Pitt's Motion for a Naval-Inquiry - -92
List of the Minority on the Volunteer Consolidation -Bill -. - -949















,.A" : ,






4" "/ '






- -.,.-,--AN ; A ABEfl4 W4I,


.1























p


HOUSE OF .CO MMO NS;. .

.As it stood. at the opening of the Session, November 22,. 1604d

Abbot, Rt. Hon. Charles, Speak- Berkeley, Hon. Geo. Cranfield, Castlereagh', Vis
er, Woodstoc Gloucestershire. Cavendish, Lord Geo.
Acheson, Hon. Archibald, Ar- Bernard, Thomas, King's County Derbyshire
magh County Bertie, Albemarle, Stamford Caulfield, Hon.Hen. Arinagho. -.
Adair, Robert, Camelford" Best, Win. Draper; Petersfield Chaplin, Charles, Lincolnehire -
Adams, Charles, Weymouth, &c. Binning, Lord,' St. Germain Chapman, Ch. Newtown, Hans
Adamis,-James, Harwich Bishopp, Sir Cecil, Bart. New Chester, eharles,.Castle+Rising ,
Adams, William, Totness Shoreham Cichester, Lord Spencer Stanley,
Addiigton, Rt. Hon. H..Devizrs Blackburne, John, Lancashire Carriefergus ,
Addingtori, Rt. Hon. John Hiley, Blackburn, John, Newport, Hants Chinnery, Sir B. Bart. BaudonI.a
SHarwich Blandford, Marq of, Tregony Bridge
Ainslie,Rt Sharpe, St. Michael Bligh, Thomas, Meath County Cholmondeley,.Thos. Cheshire
Alcock, Win. Congreve, .Water- Bloxam, Sir Mat. Kt. Maidstone Chute, William, Hamtpshire '
ford City Bond, Nathaniel, CorfF Castle Clements, Vise. Leitrim County
Alexander, Boyd, Glasgow, &c. Bootle, Edw. Wilbr. Newcastle- Clephane, David, Kinrosr-shire '
Alexander, Henry, Old Sa.rum under-Line, Clive, Hon. Robert, Ludlow
Allan, Alexander,'Berwic Bouverie) Hon. Ed. Northampton Clive, William, Bishop's Castle
411en, Jefferys, Bridgewater Boyle, Viscount, Cork County Coehrane, Hon. Alex. Forrestrr,
Amyatt,-James, Southampton Bradshaw, Rob. Haldane, Bracley Dumfarmlii, &c.
Anderson, SirJ,W. Bart. London Bragge, Rt; Hon.Cha. Bristol Cocketell, Charles, Tregony .
Andover, Viscount, Arundel Brandling, Ch. John, Newcastle- Cocks, Hon.John-Somnfeis, Rye.
Andrews, Miles Peter, Annesley, Francis, Reading Brodie, James, Elginshire Codrington, Christ. Tewkebbury
Anson, Thoinas, Lichfield Brodrick, Hon. Wm Whirchurch Coke, Dan. Parker, Notiingham
.Antonie, Win. Lees Bedford Brogden, James, Launcestod Coke, Edward, Derby.
Archdall, Mervin,' Jun. Feima- Brome, Viscount, Suffolk Coke, Thomas Wmn, N1orfolk
iagh County Brooke, Charles', llchester Cole, Hon. G. L. Fermanagh Cq.
Archdall, Richard, Dundalk Brooke, Lord, Warwic Colquhoun, Jas; Dumbartonshire-
s.hley, Hon.;Cropley,Dorchester Brobkv, Tho. 'Newtown, L,ancas. Conibe, Harvey Christ., Londd
Astley, Sir Jacob Henry, Bart. Browne, Right Hon. Denis, Mayo Cooke, Bryan, Malton t .
Norfolk County County. Cooper, Joshua Edw. Sligoe Co. '
Atkins, John, Arundel Browne, Fran. John, Dorsetshire Coote, Sir Eyre, K. B. Queei's
Aubrey, Sir John,'Bt. Aldeburgh Brown, Is. Hawkins, Bridgenorth County
Babington,.Thoma s,,Leicester Bruce, Parric Craufurd, EvZsham Cornewall, Sir Geo. Bart. Here-
Bagwell, John, Tiperary County Bruce, Lord, Marlborough fordshire .
Bagwell, Wm. Clonmell Borough Buller, Edward, East Looe Cornwallis, James, Eye '
Bagenel, Wal. Cathicrlogh County Buller, James, Exeter Cornwallis, Hon. Wm. Eye -
.Baillie, Evan, Bristol Buller, James, West Loce. Corry, Right Hon. Isaac,, Newry
Baillie, pe'o. Jun. Berwicshire Buller, John, East Loon Courrenay,.John, Appleby :
Baker, John, Canterbury Bullock, John, Essex Cowper, Hon. Edward Spenceri
Baker, Pet Wmi. Wootton-Basset Bunbury, Sir T. C. Bart. Suffolk Hertford
Baldwin, Wm. Westbury Burder-JonesSir F. Bt. Middlesex Crariley, Viscount, Guilford-
.Bampfylde-, Si'rCh. W. Bt. Exeter Burdon, Rowl. Durham County Craufurd, Robert, ERist Retford
Bankes, Henry, Corff Castle Barland, John.Berkeley, Totness Creevey, Thonmas, Thetford '
Barclay, George, Bridport. Burrodughs,iVWilliam, Enuiskillen Croshie, James, Kerry County -
Barclay, Sir Rt. Bart. Newtown., Burton, Francis, Oxford City Curtis, Sir Wm. Bart. London
.Hants Burton, Hon. F. Nath. Clare Co. Curwen, John Christian, Carlisle
Barham, Jps. Poster, Stocbridge Burton, Nap. Christie, Beverley' Curzon, Hon. Robert, Clitheroe
Abating; .Sir,Francis, Bart. Chip- Butler, Hqn. Chas. KilkennyCity iCut, Hon. John, Clithqroe. .
-ping Wyc.ombe Butler Hon.Js. Kilkenny Cbunry Dallas, Robert, St. Michael" '
Barlow, Francis Wm. Coventry Baxton, Sir Rob. J. Bart. Bedwin Dalkeith, Earl of, Ludgr ha.ll'
Darlow, Hugh, Pembroke Byng, George, Middlesex Daly, Denis Bowes, GalwayTowv -
B arne, Snowdon,.Dunwich Caleraft, John, Warehaim Dashiwood, Sir H. W. Bt. Wood.
Bastard, Edmund, Dartnquth Calvert, John, HuQtingdon sto
Bagstard, J. Pollcafen, Devonshire Calvert. Nicolson, Hertford D wkins, James, Chippenhao i
Beach, Mich. Hicks, Cirencester Campbell; john, Anstruther, &c. 'D wion, Richard, Monaghan Co.
Beaumont, T'ho. Rd. Northuli- Campbell, Jolsn,,Rothsay, &c., De ElA.iouiere, Ld. K. B. Dowaion
berland Campbell, .,ord. John D. E. ,H. Denon, John, Colchester,
Bennett, R.HI.A. Launceston Argyllshire Dent, John, Lancaster
Bent, Robert, Aylesbury Canning, Right Hon. Geo. Tralee Devayies, William, Barnstaple
eeiyon,'Richard,, .Pontefrad Carberry, Lord, Rutlaud Deverell, Robert, Saltask .
Beresford, Ld, Geo..T. London- Carew, Reginald Pole, Fowey Dickenon, Wm. Somersetslkre
Sderry CQupty Carnegie, Sir Day. Bt. Forfarshiire Dickeoson, Win. ju ..Li:esrwikql
Beresford, Rt. Hon.John,.Watcr- Cartwright, W. Ralph, Nooth- Dickin;, Fras. Northaminpt6
ford County amptonshirks ;Dickson, W m. SelkirkI, c. "---
Bqresiord, J. Claud. Publin City Dillon, Hon. H.Aug.MayQ.









Dolbin, Sir 'Vm. Bt. OxTold Uni-
versity '
Douglas, SirG.Bt;.Roxbuirghshire
Douglas, Marquis of,' Lancaster
Dugdale, Stratfq Dugdale, W"ar-
V 11magh Borough
un. Aldhorough
a'le Beik,
Hon. Charles Laurence,
alton
Daiidlas,. Hon. George- Heneage
Laurence, Richmond
SDundat, Hoan. Laurence, York
Dundas, Philip,'Gatton
Dundas, Hop. Rob. Edinbudghsh.
DundA;, Right Hon. Wm. Su-
therlandshire
Ddillo, Viscount, Galway County
Dupre, James, Aylesbury
JYurand, J ohn.Hodnon, Maidstone
Egerron, William, Cheshire '
Elford, Sir Wi. Bart. Plymouth
:Eliot, Hon. John, Leskeard
Eliof, Hon. Wm. Lerkeard ,
Eliot, William, Pete; borough
Elli;,' Clarle; Rose, Seaford
Elli'on, Ricliard, Lincoln
Elphinstone-Fleei-i;g, Hon. Cha.
Stirlingshire
Erskine', Sir James St. Clair, Bart.
Kirkaldy, e.- .
ErsKine, Honm Tho. Portsmouth
Erskine, Sir Win. Bt. Eifeshire
Estcourt, Thomas; Crieqade
E'Terett, Thomas, Libdgershall
EuSton, Ea'tlof, Camb.University
Zyre, Ant. Hardolph, Notting-
Shamiahire .
Falkiner,, Fred. John, Dublin Co.
Fane, Francis, Dorchester
SFane, Henry, Lime Regis
Fane, John, Oxfordshire
Fane,"Hon. Thomas,' Lime Regis
Srqibqhar, James, 'Brechin, &c.
Fellows, Hon. Newton, Andover
Fdllowes, Roberi, Norwich
Fellowes Win. Hen. Hunoingdon
Fergusson, James, Aberdeenshire
Fdtlierstone, Sir T. Bt. Lpngford
County' ,
'Fifinch, Hon. Edw. Cambridge
Fit gerald, RL. Hon. James, Ennis
Fitzgerald, Right Hon. Maurice,
'Keiry County
Fitzgerald, Ld. Rt. S. Kildare Co.
Fitzgerald, Rob. Uniacke, Cork
County
Fitzharri., Viscount, Helston
Fitzhugh, William, T ivertn
Fitzpatrick,Rt. Hon. Rd.Tavistoc
Fitztoy, Ld. Chs. Ed4nundsbury
Fifzwiliam, Vise. WIlton'
Fleming, SigM. le,-Bt. Westmor-
land ',
FIe cher, Sir Hqn. Bt. Cumberlan.i
EdIC e'Hon. Andrew Droiiw.ch
ojj amhe, Fr. Ferrand,. Higham

BEes;'Str-M, B. Br. King's Lynp
pci4eVisc.' New Sarum
Shtsue, .Jobhn, Camelford
irIcl W enloe .
q;.e, Wm.Ch. Louth County

*Iri


Fo. ter,Rt. Hon. J'. Louth County
Fox, Hon.Ch.James, Wcitminsier
Francis Philip, Applbyv
Frankland, William, Thirsk
Frederick, Sir John. Bt. Surrey
Freneli, Arthur, Roicommou Co.
Fuller, J,'h .us;e.
Fydell, TI hornm, jun. BEnoton
Garr, in, Sir R-ch itL Wncheiter
G.irdne', Lord, WV'e-imminer
Garlind, Gtorge. Pole
Garrard,Ch.Drake,Agmondcsham
Gat thshore, Wm. Weymouth,&c.'
Gascoyne, isaac, Livyerpool
Geary, Sir William, Br. Kent
Giles, Daniel, East Grinstead
Glenbervir, Lord, Hastings
Goddard, Ambrose, Wiltshire
Godfrey, Thomas, Hythe
Gordon, Alex. Pcnrose Cumming,&
' Fortrose, &c.
'Gower, Lord G. L. Staffordshire
Gower, Edw. Leveson, Truro
Graham, Sir James, Bt. Ripon
Graham, James, Cockermouth
Giaham, Thomas, Perthshire
Grant,,Charles, Invernessshire
Grant, Francis Wm. Cullen, &c.
Grant, Right Hon. Sir Win. Kt.
Bamffsfabire
Greene, Wm. Dungarvon Bo.
Gregor, Francis, Cornwall,
Grenfell, Pascoe, Marlow
Grenville, Rt. Hon. Thos. Buck-'
ingham r,
Greville, Hon. R. Fulk, Windsor
Grey, Hon. Chs: Northumberland
Grimstorie Hon. as. Walter, St.
Albans
Grosvenor, Richard Earle Drax,
Chester ,
Grosvenor, Thomas, Chester
Gunning, Geo. Win. Hastings
Hamilton, LdArch. Lanerkshire
Hamilton, Sir C. Brt Dungainon
Hamniilton, Hans; Dublin County
Hammct, John, Taunton
Hamond, Sir And. S. Bt. Ipswich
Hardman,Edw.DroghedaCo.&To.
Hardolph, Ant, Nottinghamshire
Hare, James, Knaresbdronghr
Harrison, John, Thetford
Hartopp,SirEd.C.Bt.Leicestersh.
Harvey, Eliab, Essex
Hawkesbury, Lord, Rye
Hawkins, SirChris.Bt.Grampound
Hawthorne, Chas.Stewart,Down-i
patric -
Heath'cote,Sir GilBct.Lin'ccolnshire
Heathcote, John, Ripon
Heathcote, SirWm.Bt.Hampshire
Henderson., Ant, Bracley
'Hill, Sir Geo. Fitzg. Br. London-
.derry City
Bill, Sir Rich. Bt.' Shropshire
Hill, Hon. William, Shrewsbury
Hilliard, Edward, Horsham
Binchinbrook,Visc. Huntingdons.
Hippesley, SirJn.Cox,Bt. 'Sudbury
Hobbhouse, Benjamin,Grampound
Hodson, Johis, Wigan .
Holdsworth, ArthuiHowe, Dart-
moutlh
Holford,.Geo. Peter, Bossiney


Holland, Hen.'jun. MOkehamptoa
Holland,,Sir NathanieJ, Bt. Great
Bedwin .
Hunyman. Robert, Orkney-
Hr.ny wood, Fil!ner,.Kent
Honyywood. Sir In. Bir. Honiton
Hope, Hon. Alex. Linlithgowsh.
Hope, Hon. dhs.Hiddingtonkhire-
Hope, Rt. Hon. Chas. Edinburgh
Horrocks. 'John, Preston
Howard. Henry, Gloucester ,
Hughes, Win. Lewiib, Wallingford'"
Hulkes;'James, Rochester
Hume,Wm.Hoare,WiclowCounty
Huntingfield, Lord, Dunwich
Hurst, Robert, Shaftesbury
Hussey,'William, New Sarurm
Hutchinson, Hon. Chlistopher
. Hely, Cork City
Jaffary, John, East-Retford
Jeffery, John, Poole
Jekyll, Joseph, Calne
Jephson, Denham, Mallow
Jervis, Thos. Yarmouth, Norfolk,
Jervoise, Jerv. Clarke,Yarmquth,'
.Isle of W ight : ,.1
Inglis, Sir Hugh, Bt. Ashburton
Joddrell, Henry, Bramber .
Johnes, Thomas, Cardiganshire
JohnsEone, George, Heydon
Jolliffe, Hylton,.Petersfield
Jones,Tho.Tyrwhitt,AthlbneBor.,
Jones, Walter, Coleraine Bojoughi
Keane, Sir John, Bt. Youghall
Keck, G. A. L. Lerie-tershire "'
Keene, Whitshed, Mconigomeily.5
Kensiagton, Lord, Hlfvtie fordw'eisv
Ker, Rd. Gerv Ne.,p rr, Hants
King, Hon. Edw. R,,coimmon Co.
King, Sir John da.lwooll, Bt,.
Chipping Wycombe
Kingston, John, Lymington
Ki naird, Hon. Chas, Leominister
Kirkwall, Vise; Heyetesbury
"Knight, Rich. Payne, Ludlow
Knox,Hon.Geo.Trinity-Col.'DuWl.
Kynaston-Powell,.jn. Shropshire
Ladbrdkei, Robert, Winchelsea ,
Lamb, Thomas Da'vis, Rye
Lambe, Hon. Penniston, Hert.
fordshire
Lambton, Ralph John, Durham
Langham, James, St. Germain
Langmead, Philip, Plymouth'
Langton, Wm. Gore, Somerset sh
Lascelles, Hon.Edw.Nbrtlhallerto '
Lascelles, Hon. Hen. Y6rkshire
Latouche,Dav.jun.CathetloghCo
Latouche, John, jun.-Dublin City
Latouche, Peter, Leitrint County
Latouche; Robt. Kildare County
Laurence, French, Peterborough
Laurie, SirRobt.Bt.Dumfriesshire
Lawley, Sir-Robt. Bt. Newcastle-
under-Line
Lee, Ed'iard, Waterford County
Lefevre,,Ch. Shaw, Bodmya ;
Leigh, James Henry,Marlborough
Leigh, Rbbert Hoit, Wigan.
Leland, John. Stamford
Lemon, Johi,- Truro-; '
Lemon, Sir Wm. Jt. Cornwall
Lenox,)Charles, Sussex., "
Leslie,Chas.Powell,MoBaghaaCo.


4:1 L


I






p'-^--
Leycester, Hugh, Milbor

Littleton,SirEdw.Bt.Staff
Lloyd, James Martin, St'
TLoftus, Earl, Wexford C(
Loftus, William, Tamwo
Long, Rt.'Hon. Chs. Wet
Loigfield, Mountifort, C
Lopez, Manasdh, New R
Lovaine,\Lord, Beerlasto
Loveden, Ed. Loveden,,Sa
Lowther, James, 'Westmer
'Lowvther, John, Cumberl
Lubbock,-John, Leomins
Lushington, Sir S. Bt. Pen
Luttrellt John Fownes, M
Lygon, Wm. Worcestersh
Macdowall, Andrew,Wig
Macdowall, Wm. Rehfrev
'Mackenzie-Frazer,A.Cror
M'Mahon, John, Aldebu
Macnaghten, E. A. Antri
Madocks, Wm. Augustus
?Maitland, John, Chippen
Maitland,Rion.Tho.Jcdbu
Mann, Sir Horace, Bt. San
Manners,Ld.C.Som.Canmb
Manners, Lord Robt.Scarl
Manners, Robert, Cambri
Manners, Sir Win. Bt. Ile
Manning, Wm. Lymingto
Markham, John, Portsmo
,Marsham, Vise..Downton
Martin, James, Tewkesbu
Martin, Richard, Galway
k hthew, Vise. Tipperary
Millews, John, Hereford
May,Edward, Behliast
M' Mellish, Wm. Great Grim
Metcalfe, Philip, Plympro
Metcalfe, Sir Tho. Their
Bt. Abingdon
SMiddleton, Wm. Ipswich
Milbanke,SirRalp.Bt.Durl
Mildmay, SirH.P.S.Bt.Win
*vMilford,Lord, Pembrokes
Milts, Charles, Warwic
Milner, Sir W. M. Bt. Yor
Miles, James, Blechingley
Mitford, Wm. Beeralston
Moffatt,Wm. Winchelsea
Moncton, Hon. Edw. Staff
Montagu, Lord Fr.Hunting
Montgomery, Jas. jun. Pee
Moore, Charles, Heytesbu
Moore; Geo. Pet. Queenbo
Moore, Peter, Coventry
SMorgan, Rt. Hon. Sir Ch
Breconshire
Morgan, Chas. Monmoutl
Morland, William, Taunto
Morpeth, Visedunt, Morpe
Morris, Edw. Newport, Co
Mostyn, Sir Tho. Bt. Flint
Muridy, Ed. Miller, Derby
S' epean, Sir Evan, Bt. Brid
SNeville, Rich. Wexfor4 To
N ewboro0ugh, Lord, Beaun
.ewcomep, Ion.T. G, Lo
County
N, icholl, Sir John, Knt. Pe
N oel, Gerard Noel, Ru;lain
North, Dudley, Banbury
Northey, Wm. Newport, (
Norton, Hon. J.Chapple, G
Yot.;


ne Port O'Brien, Sir Ed. Bt. Claret'ounty Rydei, I" .p' hard, Tlreoln ''
ordshire Odell, Win. Limeric County St. Joht A.mbrosi, Call gton
eyning O'Hara, Chas. Sligoe County St.John,-fooii) St:And. Bedfordslit.
county Oliver, Chas. Silver, Limeric Co. Salnsbory,' Sir Rt. Bt. Breco'n. '
rth O'Neil, Hon.J;R.B.AntrimCounty Sargent, John, gdmyn .
indover Orchard, Paul, Callington Savage, Franc oi n Cu '.
ork City Ord, Wm. Morpeth Savile, CIii ton
omney Ormsby,Chas.M.CatherloghBoro' Saunde son,Fra
an Oiborne, Ld.Fra.Godolph.Lewes Scott, Claude, Malmes
ftesbury Osborne, Juhn, Bedfordshire Scott, Divid, St. Andre
rland Ossulston, Lord, 5:eyniqg Scott, Ron. John, Boroughbr, ge.
and" Paget, Hon. Arthur, Anglesey Scotrr,'Joeph, Worcester .
ter Paget, Hon. Edw. Carnarvon Scott, Samuel, Malmesbury'
ryn Paget, Lord, Milborne Port Scott, Rt., Hon. Sir Wm.'a Kt.x
inehead Palk,Sir Laurence,Bt Devonshire Oxford University
ire ; Palk, Walter, Ashburton Scudamore, John, Hereford
townsh. Palmer, John, Bath Seymour, Lord Robt. Orford""'
shire Parsons, Sir-Lau. Bt.-King's Co. Shake'peare, Aithut, Richnond r'
aartysh. Patten, Peter, Newtown, Lanc, Shelley, Henry, jun. Lewes
rgh Patteson, John, Minehead Shelley, Timothy, Shoreham
m Co. Pedley, John, Hindon Sheridan, Rd. Brinsley, Stafford'
, Boston 'Peel, Sir Robt. Bt. Tamworth Shuckburgh-Evelyr.,Sir Geo.Aug. :
ham Peirse, Henry, Northallerton Wm. Bt. Warwicshir'
rgh,&c. Pelham, Hon. C. A. Gt. Grimsby Shum, Geo. Ho6i6h' "
idwich Pellew,SirEdw. Bt. Barnstaple Sibthorp, Humphry, Lincoln
ridgesh. Penn, John, Helston Simpson, HFn. John, Wenloc .
borough Penn, Richard, Haslemere Sinclair, Sir John, Bt. Buteshire.
dge .Perceval, Hon. Sp. Northampton Sitwell, Frincis, Berwic
hester Petty, Lord Henry, Caine Sloane, Hans, Lestwithiel
'n Philipps, John Geo. Carmarthen' Smith, Charles, Westbury : "'
uth Phipps, Hon. Edm. Scarborough Smith, George, Midhurst
Pierrepont, 'Hon. Chas. Herbert, Smith, John, Wendover
ry Nottinghamshire Smith, John Spencer, Dover
County Pitt, John, Gloucester Smith, Joshua, Devizes
County Pitt,Rt.Hon.Wm. Cambridge Uni. Smith, Samuel, Leicester; .
shire Pitt, W'm. Morton, Dorsetshire Smith, Thq. Ashpton, Andover
Plumer, Win. Hertfordshire Smith, Thos._West Looe
sby Pecbck, Geo. Bridgewater Smith, William, Norwich
n Pole, Sir Ch. Morice, Bt. Newark Smith, William, Westmeath Co.
ophilus, Pole,Hon.Wm.Wellesley,Queen's Smith, Sir Win. Sidney, Knt.'
County : K. C. Rochester
'Ponsonby, Geo. Widow County Smyth, Rt. Hon, Jno. Pontefract
hamCo. Ponsonby, Rt. Hon. Win. Braba- Sneyd, Nathaniel, Cavan County
chester zon, Kilkenny County, Somerset, Rt. 4on. Lord Charles
hire Porcher, Josiah Dupri, Bodmyn Henry, Monmouth <
-Porchester, Lord, Criclade Somerville,SirM.Bt.MeathCounty
Ik Porter, Geo. Stockbridge Spencer, Lord F. A. Oxfordshire,
y Portman,Ed.Berk.Boroughbridge Spencer, Hon. John, Wilton
Poyntz, Wm. Steph. St. Alban's Speucer,-Lord Robt. Tavistoc
Praed, William, St. Ives Stanhope, W. Spencer, Carlisle
Ford Preston, $ir Robt. Bt. Cirencester StanifortkhJno.Kingston-on-Hull
gdonsh. Price, Charles, London Stanley, Lord, Prestoni .
.blessh. Price, Richard, New Radnor Stanley, Thomas, Lancashire
ry Prinsep,.John, Qgeenborough. Steele, Robt. Weobly
rough Proby, Vise. Buckingham , Steele, Rt. Hon. Tho. Chichestr, '
S Pulteney, SirJs.Bt.Weymouth,&c. Stephens, Sir Ph. Bt. SandWich'.
as. Bt. Pulteney, Sir Win. Bt..Shrewsbury Steward, Gab.TatckerWeymoutr, '
Pytches, John, Sudbury &c.
hshire Rain, Jonathan, St. Ives 'Stewarit,Hon.Cs.LondonderryCo. "
'a Ram, Abel, Wexford County 'Stewart, Sir Jas. Bt. Donegall Co.
th Ridley, Sir Matthew White, St. Stewart, Jas. Tyrone County
ornmwall Newcastle.on-Tyne Stewart, Rt. Hon. Sir JohnBt
shire Robarts, Abraham, Worcester Tyrone Codlhty
shire Robinson, John, Bishop's Castle Stewarr, Hon. Montgomery, Ktr-,
Iport Rochfort,Gustavus,WestmeathCo cudbright
own Rooke, James, Monmouthshire Stewart, Hon.Wm. Stranraer, &c.
naris Rose, Rt.Hon.Geo.Christchurch Stopford, Vihc. Annau,&c.
0ngfprd Rose, Geo. Henry, Southatmpton Strachey,Sir Hen.Bt. Ea.Grinsteadt
Ross, Sir Chas. Br. Rossshire. Strahan, Andrew, Wareham.. .
nryn Ross, Patric, Horsham Strange, Jimes, Okehamptba '."'
4 Rowley,Sam.Camp.KinsaleTown Strucr, Joseph Holde, Mdire" '
Russell, Matthew, Saltash Stuart, Lod Win. Cardiff .
Cornw. Russell, Lord Win. Surrey Stuait-Wortley, Jas. Archibill
uilford Rutherford, John, Selkirkshire Bossiney
'.v '
) 'o ._.





r .T


Stnrist,. Jr'Jn.Bjri'K 3c~ i eshire
Slhurges, jViji 1,3. lrthurch
Stisley, V, Zc., ,pp' ty .
Sullivn,Jgh9 j Iborough
* Sullivan, ,. 7 h, Sealord ,
SSurpr
Smotl, !anneis, Kni.

r.' W all fR.rd
i rh;. Powell, Hereford
'147rrn. Banis're, Liverpool
T,ylor, Chai. Wmn. Wells
Temple, Earl, buck,
Trnmpletown,Ld.St.F.dmiindsliury
Trellusson', Chat. Evesliam
Tlhellussou,Pet.I s l ar,C.ztleRi;in
Thoma';,.Geo. Whitc, Chiche ter
Tb ritoa, Henry, S.,urlwark
Tliorntoq, RobE Colch.iter '
Thornton,Sain.K ng. ti n-o. -Hull
Thpo'nt6oi, Thi, G, ,rah.rm
Thynne. Lor' Geo. Weobly.
STiyLne,'Loid Joba. Bath
Tierney, Rl. Hu-n Geo hnurhwaLk
'Titchtield, BIlaquis 'f, Buck:-
Toittenhap, Cha juu New Ross.
ToavaslC.d, Ld.Jpao.K u3arboro'
TbuwnO'nerd, Hibn. \iV i. Aug.
Whitchurch .
0T,.il, James, Orford











-


1UW2.W'' '"'


S-L
Treviobp, John, "Iover ., -
Troughbridgr,,-Sir I hos. St. Yar-
mouth, 'Nor f.
Tudway, Clem6ent, Aell.s
Turner, Edm. jun. MJlhurst
Turner. Sir G..Page. Br. Thulsk
T1 what Drake, Tho:. Drake,
Agrniondeb'am
Tyvrwhirt, Thos. Portarlingion
Van. itartn G. BeikA.;re -
Viln.itart, Nicolas, Old Saturnm
V.iughan, Hon. John, Cardigan
Vaughan, Sir Robt. Willialns,Bt.
Merioneth'hire
Vernket, Chas. Limerip9 ity
Sillier,, Rt.Hon.Jn.C.Dotrnoc,&c.
Wallace, R. Hon. T ho. Hi.ndon'
Walpole,.Hjon. Geo. Dertb
\,alpole,Hon.Horatio;K ing'sLyn
Walsh, Jo.hn Benn,.rlechingley
Ward, Hon. Jn.Wm.Woorerstersh.
A'ar4,.Robt> Cockermouthl
Warren, Rt. Hon. SirJohn oprlse,
,B K. B.,& K. C. Nottingham
Watson, Honf. Geo. Canterbury:
.Welby, SirW.Earle,Bt. Granthaim
West, Hon. Frederic, Denbigh
Western, Ch. Call, NIlIhJC
-\Whatl.n, John, Beverley
WVarwton, Rich. Durham City
Whit bred, Sap.uelBedford


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Whbite,.Matthewv, Hlythe -
Whitmore, John, Bridgenorth
Wickham, Ri. Hoan Win. Ca6hell.
Wigram, Robt. Fonvey
Wilherforce, Winm..Yorkshire 4
Wilkins,.-'eaer,.Radnarshirer -
Wilierc, johnWilier, New Romney
'illianT.s,J-.Himl Carmafrlenih.
Williams, John,,W.inds6r. ,
* Williams, Owen, Marlow '
%Villia m ,SirRot.Bt.Car narvornh. -
Williams, Rdbr;. Woontdtn Basert
AVilliams, Watkin, fBlint, : -. -
Windham, Rr.-'6n;W.St..Mawes
i Winnington, Sir Ed. Bt.Droitwith '
Wood Geo. Halenmere ..
Wood,' Mar-k,.Gatton
Worces er,Marq-.o.f,Glouicestersh,,
Wright, John Atkyns, OxfordCity
Wrottesley, Sir-Jno.:Bt. .Lichfield
SWyndham, Hen.. Peri..Wikshire
Wyndham, Thos.'Giamorgansh.'
Wynne, Chas.. Watkin- Williarit,.
'.Montgomeryshire .
Wvyne, Owen, Sligoe Bo d ugh
Wyine, i, iWar1V Lr.Debaghih.'
Yarmouth, Earl iof, Lieburine',"
Yorke,Hoi. Jos. Sid. Ryevate '
Yorke, Rt.Hon.Cha.Ca~mr.idgesh
Young, Sir Wm... t. SMawest"' N.







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.4,5


'.f





n. P. 0
'AL


' /


-LIST OFr HIS MAJESTY'S CABINET MINISTERS AT THE OPENING OF THE SESSiO


SCabinet Ministers.
)Duke of Portland.............. President of the Council.
Lord Eldon .................. Lord High Chancellor.
Lord Westmorland ............ Lord Privy Seal.
"'Right Hon. Henry Addington..'.. First Lord of, the Treasury and Chancellor of
the Exchequer. (Prime Minister).
Earl St. Vincent. .............. First Lord of the Admiralty.
Earl of Chatham .............. Master General of the Ordnance.
Right Hon. Charles Yorke ...... Secretary of State for the Homq Department.
Lord Hawkesbury............. Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. -
Lord Hobart .................. Secretary of State for the Department of War and
VcnCtr" ea the Colonies.
Lord Viscount Castlereagh ...... President of. the Board of Controul for the Affairs
of India.'


Not of the Cabinet.
, Right Hon. Charles Rragge...... Secretary at War. 0
S eight Hon. George Tierney...... Treasircr of the Navy.
Right Hon. J. Hiley Addington Joint Paymasters of his Majesty's Forces.
Lord Auckland ...... ...... Joint Postmasters General.
Lotd Charles Spencer.. .... J
Nicholas Vansittart, Esq ... I
JohnSargent, Esq. .. ,Secretaries of the Treasury.
Sir William Grant............ Master of the Rolls.
SHon. Spencer Perceval .......... Attorney General.
Sir Thomas Manners Sutton .... Solicitor General.


PRtSONS IN THE MINISTRY OF IRELAID.
Earl of Hardwicke............ Lord Lieutenant-
Lord Redesdale................ Lord, High'Chancellor. ,
Right Hon. W-. Wickham ...... Chief Secretary.
Right Hon. Isaac Corry ........Chancellor of the Exchequer.


F,


>N. -


4



















4






















- If.












PARLIAME NTAY DEBATES,

During the Second Session of the Second Parliament of te
United Kingdom of Great-Britain and Ireland, and of the Kingdom'
of Great-Britain the Nineteenth, appointed to meet at Westminster, -.
the Sixth Day of October, 1803, and from thence continued by
several Prorogations, to the,Twenty-second Day of November; in
the Forty-fourth Year of the Reign of King GEORGE the Third;
AnnoqueDomini, 1803.


HOUSE OF LORDS.
November 22, 1803.
This day, at a quarter past three o'clock,
his Majesty came down to the House of
Peers in the accustomed state, and being
seated in his royal robes upon the throne,
. Qarme, the Deputy Usher of the
Blck Rod, was dispatched with a message
frona his Majesty, commanding the attend-
once of the House of Commons, who forth-
with-appeared at the bar, with the Speakert
at their head. His Mfajesty was then pleas-
ed to. deliver the following most gracious
speech from ihe throne:
"--My Lords and Gentlemen,
S' Since I last met you in Parliament, it has
been my chief object to carry into -effect
those measures which your wisdom had
- adopted for the defence of the United King-
d4om, and for the vigorous prosecution of the
war; : In these preparations I have been se-
j.onded by the voluntary exertions -of all
ranks of my people, in a manner that has,
if possible, strengthened their claims to my
confidence and affection : they have proved
that the menaces of the enemy have only
served to rouse their native and hereditary
spirit and "that all -other considerations
are lost in a general disposition to make
those efforts arid sacri#(ces which the ho-
noutrarid safety of the-Kingdom demand
at this important and critical conjun.cture.
---Tholagh my-attention, has principal \ been
directed to the great object of internez .ecio-
rity, no opportunity has been lost of mniing
an Impression -on the foreign possessions of
the enemy.' The Islands of St. Lucia,- of
S'Tobago; of St. Pierre, and Miquelon, and the
Settlements of Demerara and Essequibo,
VoL..LV. -


have surrendered to the British arms.', Id
the conduct of the operations by which
those valuable acquisitions have been made,
the utmost promptitude and zeal have
been displayed by the -officers employed
on those services, and by my forces acting
under their command by sea and- land."
-In Ireland, .the. leaders, and several in.
.ferior agents, in the late traitorous and.
atrocious conspiracy, have been brought
to justice and the public tranquillity has
experienced no further interruption. I in-
dulge the hope, thit such of my deluded
subjects as have swerved from their alle-
giance are now convinced of their error;
and that having compared the advan-
tages they derive from the protection of
a free Constitution, with the condition of
those countries which are under the domi-.
nion of the French Government, they will
cordially and zealously concur in resisting
any attempt that may be made against the
security and independence of my United
Kingdom. .
Gentlemen of the House of Commons, .
I have a perfect reliance on your public .
spirit for making such provision say.- be
necessary for the service of the year. the
progressive, improvement of the revenue
cannot fail to encourage-you to persevere ini
the system *Nhich has been :i>op.red, ut de.'
-fraying the expensgs-of thel v. l, v. 1h as lit-
tie addition as possible to d t public db'-,
ahfito the peimanen-buriliens (..f the Stats..
-I client the heavy p c...ure 'wbich, o 'n-
'der thl- present circumstances, must'una-
voidably be experienced b,; my people ; but
I am' persuadqed'hat dey will, trfet it with
the good sense and fortitude which so emi-
nently distinguish their character, under a
conviction of the indispensable impor n.ce
Ll -





- 1ARL. IJEbATES_, Nov. 122>-Jkings Speech.


ef upholding the dignity, and of providing
effectually for the safety of the Empire.
My Lords and Gentlemen, "
I have concluded, a convention with the
King of Sweden, for the purpose of adjust-
ingall. thehdifferences which have arisen on
Sth's'ubiect of the eleventh article of the
,reaty of 1661. I have directed that a copy
of' this convention should be laid before
you ; and you will, I trust, be of opinion
that he arrangement, whilst it upholds our
maritime rights, is founded on those princi-
plesbf reciprocal advantage which are best
calculated to maintain and improve the
good -understanding which happily subsists
between the ,two countries.-In the pro-
secution of the contest in which we are
engaged, it shall be, as it. has ever been,
fny first object to execute as becomes me, the
great trust committed to my charge. Em-
barked with my brave and loyal people in
one common cause, it is my fixed deter-
mination, if the occasion should arise, to
share their exertions and their dangers in
the defence of our constitution, our reli-
gion, our laws, and independence. To
thxe armies, to the zeal and unconquerable spi-
rit of my faithful subjects, I confide
the honour of my crown, and all those
valuable interests which are involved in the
issue of this momentous contest.-Ac-
tuated by these sentiments, and hum-
bly imploring the blessing of Divine Pro-
vidence, I look forward with a firm con-
viction, that if, contrary to all just expec-
tation, the enemy should elude the vigi-
lance of my numerous fleets and cruizers,
2nd attempt to execute their presumptuous
.threat of invading our coasts, the conse-
quence will be to them, discomfiture, con-
fusion, and disgrace; and that our's will
not only be the glory of surmounting pre-
sent difficulties, and repelling immediate
danger, buttjhe solid and permanent advan-
tage of fixing the safety and independence
of the kingdom on the basis of acknowledged
strength, the result-of its own tried energy
'and resources."
After his Majesty had left the House,
'Lord Hawkesbury was introduced by the
-Earl Marshal and Lord Great Chamberlain
in their robes, between Lords Hobart and
Auckland, on being created Baron Hawkes-,
Sbury, and took the oaths and his seat in the
House. Lord Westmoreland then moved
the first reading of a bill, according to an.
cient usage, before they proceeded to take
into consideration his Majesty's speech.
Their Lordships then 'adjourned during
pleasure After a short interval, the House-


was resumed, and his Majesty's speech wai .
read,, first by the Lord Chancellor, and af-
terwards by the Clerk at the table.
The Marquis of Sligo then rose to move
an Address to his Majesty, on his most gra-
cious Speech from the throne, which their
Lordships had just heard read, and spoke
as follows: My Lords-In calling your
L ordships' attention to the speech which has
been delivered from the throne, I trust I
shall not be considered as arrogating to my-
self an extraordinary claim to your consider,
action. Little in the habit of addressing you
on such occasions, and not, perhaps, suited
to it on any, I shall require much of your
indulgence, while I endeavour to express
those -sentiments to which that speech has
given rise; though I am persuaded I feel
them only in common with your Lordships,
and with all those who have had the oppor-
tunity of attending to it. The importance
of perfect unanimity at this moment, I feel
most strongly, and I trust nothinig-will fall
from me to stand in the way of that most
desirable object. We must recollect that
we have to contend with an overbearing
and vindictive enemy, avowing, as his ob-
ject, our destruction, and one who we kno. y,
by the melancholy experience of Europe,"''
will stop at no means to effect his purposes.
If ever there was a period of more import-
ance in the annals of history than another,
this is the period. If ever there was a mo-
ient for peculiar pride, in the name of Bri-
ton, more than another, it is at the present
moment. If ever there was a period when
this nation, long the envy and admiration
of the world, could more properly be look-
ed up to for imitation, it is now, when
every individual, born to the protection of
equal. laws, stands forward, without distinc-
tion of rank, class, or situation, to shed his
blood in defence of that invaluable inherit-
ance. The measures which the prudence of
his Majesty's ministers has suggested for the
defence of the empire, and which the wis-'
dom of Parliament has adopted, have been
outdone by the zeal and patriotism of its
inhabitants, and Greae-Britain offers itself
to the admiration of the world, in a novel
attitude, a nation of soldiers, not brought/
together by the terrors of revolutionary laws,
not assembled by the unbridled power of a
despotic- government, not invited by the
hopes of plunder, from the destruction of
neighboring nations, but voluntarily step-
ping forth on the noblest and wisest prin-
ciples, the possession of an unequalled formi
of government, a proper sense of its value,-
and a determination to die in its defence.-
France, assisted in her views upon othet 4


1523s


[124


"- -,,, .~





PAL, DEBATESNov. -Kig's Spec.
PA 11L1. DEBATEIS,, NoV. 22.-Kr'ng's S~e~


nations, by their internal dissentions, may
have the same expectation here, but she'
will find, that, however the wisest may dif-
fer in political opinions, or however we
may be divided in another part of the Unit-
ed Empire by distinctions of religion, there
,are points and principles in which we shall
be actuated by 6ne mind; we will not be
invaded by a foreign enemy; we will not
be dictated to by any one ; we will live as
an independent people, as our forefathers
have done, or we will not live at all.-But,
though much of the attention of the King's
ministers must have been bestowed on our
extensive preparations for home defence,
their labours have not been confined to that
only. Enterprizes for conquests abroad
have been planned, and several colonies of
-considerable commercial value wrested from
the enemy and added to the dominions of
Great-Britain, opening new markets for our
manufactures, and, at the same time, cutting
off the last remnant of foreign trade from
France. She is effectually deprived of the
means for the restoration of her naval power,
the remnant of which, still smarting under
the recollection of former. defeats, confined
S to. her own harbours, remains blockaded in
.' "one of her naval arenals by the persevering
vigilance of Admiral Cornwallis, and in the
other, by a noble admiral, with whose ex-
ploits in the same quarter, she has had some
former acquaintance.-With respect to the
-recent events which have taken place in
Ireland, I'can address your Lordships on
-that subject with a considerable degree of
confidence, having been there previous to
the breaking out of the insurrection, pend-
ing it, and for many-monihs after it was
'put down. A conspiracy, fomented by the
intrigues of France, was formed,'having for
its avowed object the overthrow of the go-
vernment. The energy, the firmness, the
vigilance, and the moderation with which it
was followed up. by the King's servants
there, gave universal, satisfaction to all the
'loyal inhabitants. It was traced to its very
-source: not only every ring-leader, but also
every conspicuous person concerned in it,
W as discovered and brought to punishment,
after being allowed the fullest benefit of
those mild, just, and lenient laws, which, in
their madness, they wished to have overturn-
ed. I- will also further assure your Lord-
ships, that French fraternization is now ap-
preciated in Ireland, at its just value, and if,
by the misinformation of their emissaries,
the enemy should direct their meditated at-
tack to that quarter, they will find, I here
pledge myself to your Lordships, a vigorous
resistance from every rank-and every persua-


sion of -the inhabitants.-A continued per-
severence in the wise system of defraying
the weighty charge of war, with the least
possible permanent burthen on the public,
cannot be too much commended. It is by
that only our national credit can' be pre-
served, and that France will learn, that the
plans she may have formed for exhausting
our resources, are as vain as any others sh&
may have in view for our destruction.-
With respect to the Convention concluded
with the King of Sweden, when the papers
on that subject are before your Lordships
will be the properest time for examining the
merits of that convention ; I will, however,
take leave to say now thus much : in all 1
have seen, and all I have read, treaties be-
tween independent nations, are lasting and
beneficial, in proportion as they convey
equal and reciprocal advantage to both par-
ties: if, therefore, our just rights are ob-
tained, and all indispensably necessary to us
is secured, without infringing on the. rights
of another independent kingdom, all that
could be wished for is accomplished.-I
come now, my Lords, to the concluding pa-
ragraph of the speech ; in which his Ma-
jesty, in language never to be forgotten, de-r
cares, that, embarked in one common cause
with his brave and loyal people, he confides
to them the honour of his crown, determin-
ed in his own person to share with them
their exertions and their dangers. The feel-
ings to which such sentiments give rise, it
would not be easy to express ; I could dwell
on them with pride and pleasure: but I
have trespassed already too much on your
Lordships' indulgence, and, in truth, I have
nearly- exhausted my own strength, and,
therefore, though I could have wished to
have added a few words more, 'I must con-
clude with a fervent prayer, that the beloved
Sovereign, who has reigned in the love and
admiration of his subjects for nearly half a
century, may long continue to fill that
throne Whatever calamities hang over is,
may danger be far from him! And,'when
taken from us to ar other and a better world,
may the remembrance of his unexampled
virtues be lastingly impressed on his succes-
sors, as the highest ornament to this nation
in its prosperity, and thp best pledge to it
for the Divine aid, under any of those dan-
gers or calamities from. which nothing hu-
man is exemnpted.-HisLordship then ?noved,
"That an humble address be presented to
his Majesty," which address was as usual, an
echo of the speech from the throne,: ind
Nearly the same as that which we insert in
the proceedings pf the House of CommoAs
of this day. (See page 15).
*L 1 2


15]25]


[1526






PAI(~LiDEBALTES, NOV., 22.-King's 'pus


;The'Eart of Limerick -rose to second the
Address. Though' he fully coincided in
the pentimeni, exprcbed by the. noble Mar-
quis who had juit sat down, yet he hoped the
rlouse woulJl pardon him, if .he, felt it ne.'
essary to trespass upon their parierice, by a
Sfqw observations upon the speech itself.
Their Lordships would observe, that in the
subject at present before them, no questions
weye involved, as to the fitness or unfitness
of ministers for the councils of their Sove
reign u. the: topics before them were not
matterss of party, consideration; they were
f& a comprehensive, general and important
I tion of their Lordships in such a point of
View, as induced him to trouble them with
a. very few observations thereon. The open-
ing part of the Speech from the throne, very
properly adverted to that impregnable- state
bf -protection, which the unprecedented vi-
gour, energy, and unanimity of the popula-
,tion of the country held forth to an aggres-
.ige and unprincipled foe. This was such,
(and it was with exultation he had to re-
xmark it,) as must make the enemy ever feel
.what he had to expect, in case he should
provoke, by an attack upon its territory, the
. .just vengeance of a nation, armed in defence
_of its independcrice, its liberties, and its in-
v valuable .cQnstitution. A voluntary arma-
mpent like the present could not be parallel.
.d in the history of any country; not only
,wiih respect to the amount of numbers,-but
in the instance of the sense, nay, the feel--
ings of the people being -so clearly and for-
jp.ibly expressed. As danger threatened, our
spirits had increased; and never had energy
more conspicuously distinguished any na-
,tion, even during the most arduous emer-
genpies, than in the present contest. He
,was confident, that should the opportuthity
: pffer, of those patriotic bands sigoalizing
-themselves in action, 'they would evince
themselves the genuine descendants of those
.who.,had so gloriously carried the terrors of
the Brifiqh arms into the heart of France,
and bore away the palm of signal and com-
pl-ete victory at qressy and Poweiiers. When
.had there siuch a number ut'f.oluntary de-
,fend1ers stepped ,forward to vindicate the
- ae of- theircounlry ? If he w as rightly
informedd i hlir was at last half a million
.of ni.0 i in.arrns, pr-pared and eager to meet
..the boasting foe. "Indeed the country ap-
S.peared to flim as pne vast camp, killed
by ar-ned myri:adi, who, instead of feeling a
particle of dismay or apprehension, instead
of.evincing themselves q nationn of shop-
--_efp--rs as they hadl been tauntingly called.
r by tue enemy, ardently wished for nothing


so muel as to be brought, to the test of ac-
tion. When-we came to cope with our ene-
my in war, wve displayed the same superiority,
as when we contended with other traders in'
mercantile effort. We were not mnere
merchants who could traffic, but could n9t
fight; not mere soldiers who could fight,
without excelling in other arts; but in
whatever we undertook we were superior,
Greatly as he admired the volunteer-corps,
ye.t, there was one circumstance which he
wished to see different from what it now
was; he wished lihat every corps of that
kind, and-also the militia, should have been
engaged to serve in any part of the United -
Kinigdoms of Great Britain and Ireland,
where occasion might- require a large por-
tion of the national force: not bnly that the
volunteers and militia should narch to their
own coasts, but also to the sister island, re-
ciprocally and respectively, if they be want
ed. Meritorious as were their services,
and momentous, even under the present
tenure, yet he thought they would be still
more valuable, if'they were more extensive
as to place; and he,wished a clause to, that
effect had been introduced,into that- part of
the defensive system, which recoirmended
the formation of volunteer c.-,rI,. Wiltb
such a numerous and effectual lorie, some
persons asked, why were our operations .
almost entirely defensive? Why did we
make no attenint at offensive efforts ? Our
first and grand object was defence; the de-
fence of our King, country, constitution,
laws, religion, property, families, liberty,
and lives, from the most cruel enemy that
had ever annoyed the human race; and
who was inflamed with .peculiar hatred
against this country, which alone had effec-
tually resisted and repressed his lawless
ambition. Unless we.had made defence
our principal and' almost sole object, we
could not have provided for our security
and independence. Even now, though we
had in a great measure ascertained our se-
curity by our strength, the vigilant hatred
of our enemy would admit of;no relaxation
of our defensive exertions. He trusted,
however, that in a short time we should :be
so secure, in point of defence, as to admit
of offensive warfare.- He could hot.with-
hold his just tribute of pritise from that re-
spectable board; to whose department more
particularly belongs the arming of the troops
and volunteer fprce of the country, for their
almost miraculous exertions, within the short
period of a few months, which had enabled
them to issue, if he was rightly informed,
above 300,000 stand of arms., Such exer-,
tions, though "they merited puc liar 0c1


6-. 7 J


I tins,





meridation, were only, he was well assured,
a specimen of the vigour and alacrity
which universally pervaded every depart-
ment. connected with the public force.-
The next point of the speech to which hae
would advert, was that in which his Majesty
stated, that while every exertion was di-
rected, in the first instance, to provide foi
Sour internal safety at hemrne, yet his arms
abroad had been directed, to the attainmeiit
of new and important acquisitions of terri-
-tory in the West-indies. To the wisdom
of such conduct, .every praise was due.
Until our security at home should be placed
nout of all possible" risk, it would be quix-
otism to direct our arms to projects of fo-
reign conquest; but that security once ef-
fected, it became the wisdorh and vigour of
his Majesty's councils, to seek every means
of annoying the enemy alhroad; and the
new ,acquisitions in the West-li dies his
lordship hailed qs an omen-ofnew triumphs
.to our arms, to which, the state of forward-
ness in number, and equipment of our pub-
lie force, unparalleled at so early a period
of the war, must.c ble us speedily to make
many valuable additions.--His lordship next
adverted to that partofhis Majesty's speech
which alhides -to the concerns of Ireland.
I-. had, on a former occasion, feelingly to
lament, the misfortunes which had then
arisen in that part of the United Kingdoms:
with respect' to these, on the present view
of that subject, much matter for satisfactory
consideration was afforded; the principal
, leaders in that wicked and flagitious ipsur-
rection had since met that fate they so just-
ly deserved. The numbers of those who
were embarked in that wretched cause,
were. certainly contemptible; yet their at-
tempts were matter for precautionary con-
sideration. He had, since the period al-
-lud,ed,to, resided in Ireland, and.had taken
some pains to be correctly informed upon
the subject; he had reason to think, that
several of those who were deeply engaged
in traitorous machinations against the con-
stitution and unity of these kingdoms, dif-
fered materially among themselves as to the
plan most expedient to be pursued. Some
urged the expediency of an immediate ri-
sing, while others preferred waiting for the
'assistance or, co-operation of France. The
.explosion, therefore, had prematurely bro-
ken forth. He sincerely wished, however,
-that--the hopes held out in the speech,
that those wh.. had been unhappily misled
.into-the paths .of. treason and rebellion,
:iuld,.by comparing the effects of that mild
and lenient system of go erinjienit under
.wvhicih they had the grod folrtune to live,


with those of that tyrannicaland: unprinci-
pled usurpation to which .tlhy were.about
to commit their country, would-be induced
to return, to. their allegiance and to habits
of tranquillity. Added to hiscoiidera-
tion, he trusted the di.-aTc ted in that coun-
try would be kept down by the strength and.
vigilance of the Irish Volunteer force, Of -
that body of men, he could speak in terms of
well founded panegyric: he had seen them,
and steadier. and-better disciplined troops
were nowhere to be found: they werecon-
fidently to be relied upon : it was not-for
review and parade alone that they were cal
culated, they had been weighed in the ba-
lance of actual- service, and proved.them-
selves not to.be deficient. Herethe noble
earl adverted to the militia -force of the
United Kingdom, and .avowed- himself con-
vinced, as lie had done on a former occa-
sion, of the Superipr. policy of reciprocal
service. .After viewing ict.,. effects of the
militia system as it'now stood, lie expressed
his wish thai. these forces, of every part of
the United Kingdomm, were enabled by Jaw.
reciprocally to volunteer .their services. -
With respect to the militia of Ireland, he
argued fur the superior policy of employing,
then partially, at least, in this country. Suchl
a measure would be, he seemed to tlink, in
strict consonance with the spirit of the
union. There might exist an aversion on
the part of the English and Scotch militia.
to crossing ihe sea-; but he repeatedj-his
opinion, that with respect to the Irish,.mili-
tia, they would, if brought to'.tlis country,
behave as well as any troops possibly cou-ld,
-His lordship then entered upon tele cpn-
sideration of the remaining topics of hislMa' a
jesty's speech. In regard to the pecar
pecuniary part of it, he must anticipate- the
most perfect unanimity, with respect to. the
affording the necessary supplies under the
present circumstances.-In regardjto the
convention lately entered into withilhe
King of Swedeni, it had his hearty approba "
tion, conceiving it was, grounded on prin-
ciples, which would tend to do away those
emr-bFra.ai.?.ts hidl, heretofore obtained
on the tifle of the re.spr'live countiieis;
and, fuiirior. lie %-. ofopinion it would have
the deirat.-le op r.iiijy otcouliteracting4lhe
effec t. of the armed neutality. In former
contests Great Britain had been greatly an-
noveI'y disputes.about the maritjine aw,
aii.d the rights of neutral nations raiding
with belligerent poqw er%; but. (his convep-
tion adjusted every difference fhat had
arisen, couimerning the interpretation of t6e
treaty which defined our maritime right -in
these cdiss.s-He hid to apologizei to their


PARL. DEBATES, Npv. 2.Ki A p )~


115BQa






PAY11. DEAhNov. 22.-King's Speed'.[13


lordships for trespassing so much upon their
attention. Yet, there was one other point,
respecting which. he could not possibly re-
frain from offering a word or two; namely,
that part of his Majesty's most gracious
speech, wherein he expressed his determi-
nation personally to come forward in de-
fence of the honour of his crown, and the
liberties and independence of his faithful
people. To a communication of this nature,
he trusted there was no- lieart -so cold, or
feelings so deadened, as not to beat respon-
sive to the intimation, or feelingly to ap-
preciate, in its full extent, its magnitude
and importance. Well may his Majesty
rely-upon the zeal and services of his peo-
ple. Should such a contingency ever arise,
the whole population of the island would
rush forward, and interpose its myriads be-
tween his sacred person and danger:
though an attack should be made by hosts
gorged with the spoils and blood of Europe,
the result would be, not only security, but
triumph to our beloved Sovereign and those
who have the happiness to live under his
auspicious government. Upon the whole,
he was induced to think, that, from the pre-
sent favourable appearance of the national
affairs, and the system adopted by govern-
ment, that such effects would ensue as must
tend to the establishment, of a real, perma-
nent, and' honourable peace, because found-
ed on the genuine balance of power in Eu-
rope, and duly regarding the liberties and
independence of the various states concept n-
ed, and above all, on the broad principle of
reciprocity of benefit and advantage. The
noble earl concluded with expressing his
hearty concurrence with the address.-The
.question was put, and the address was im-
mediately voted ncit. diss.-A committee
of their lordships then retired formally to
prepare the address, and on their return the
Marquis of. Sligo reported from the same,
when the House ordered that the lords with
white staves should wait upon his Majesty
to-morrow with the said address.
[COMMITTEE OF PRIVtLEGEF ]-Lord
HaWikesbury moved that Lord Walsingham
be 'appointed chairman of the committee of
privilegci for the present session.
The Lord Chancellor, in seconding the
motion, took an opportunity to pay an
handsome compliment to the tales and
assiduity which the noble lord, who was
the subject of the motion, had displayed
diriing so long a-period, in his official capa-
city of chairman oftheir lordships' commit
tees.-The question was put, and the ap-
pointment forthwith ordered, by their lord-
.ships, em. disr.


Lord WaMsingham then rose, and ob.
served, that he was not in the habit of tres-
passing upon the attention, or taking up the
valuable time of their lordships; but, after
what had just fallen 'from the noble and
learned lord on the woolsack, he could not
avoid saying a word or two on the occasion.
He had to return his thanks to the House
for this additional manifestation of their
lordships' favourable opinion of his official
conduct; he trusted he should persevere in
that line of conduct which had met their
lordships' approbation, which principally
consisted in a strict and uniform adherence
to the rules and orders of the House, with-
out which the business could not be con-
ducted duly fo the honour of the House, or
to the advantage of the public.-It was
then ordered, on the motion of Lord
Hawikesbury, that Lord Walsingham be ap-
pointed chairman of the committees of their
lordships' House, except in cases where it
shall be other ise directed; and also that
his lordship be appointed chairman of the
private committees during the present ses-
sion.-The usual order respecting the com-
mittee of privileges was then made, on the
motion of Lord Walsingham; as were the
several routine orders usually made at the:
commencement of a session; after whfch
their lordships adjourned till to-morro.W. -


1HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, November 32,
The House met this day, pursuant to his
Majesty's proclamation, for the dispatch of
public business. About three o'clock the
Deputy Usher of the Black Rod appeared,
within the bar, and delivered a message
from the Lords, desiring the attendance of
the House in the House of Peers to hear
the speech from the Throne. The Speak-
er, accompanied by the members present,
accordingly attended, in obedience to his
Majesty's command. On their return, the
Speaker took the chair, and acquainted the
House, that, by virtue of the acts author .
sing him so to do, he had issued his warrant
to the Clerk of the Crown, directing him to
make out a new writ for the election of a
member to serve in parliament for the Bo,
rough of Yarmouth, in the County of South-
ampton, in the room of J. Murray, Esq.
deceased; and also another for the County
of Gloucester, in the room of the Marquis
of Worcester, called to the House of Peers.
-Seven members were introduced and
took the usual oaths and their seats; -among
whom were Mr; Yorke, Mr. Bragge, anr


[1533






~~533JVAAlL. DEBATES, Nv ~Kng peA 1


Mr. Tyrwhitt Jones.-The Speaker inform-
ed the House, that the clerk had, according,
to custom,, prepared a bill for preventing
clandestine outlawries. The bill was
brought' up and read a first and second
time.
[KING's SPEECH.]-The Spea.ler ac-
quainted the House that the House had, in
obedience to his Majesty's command, at-
tended in the House of Peers, to hear his
Majesty's most gracious Speech from the
Throne; of which, to prevent mistakes, he
had himself obtained a copy. He then pro-
"ceeded to read. the Speech from the chair,
for which we refer to our account of the
proceedings of the Lords. (See p. 1.)
After the Speaker had finished reading the
Speech,
The Hon. Cropley Asbley rose and spoke
as follows. Sir; after having heard the
sentiments expressed, and the statements
contained in the Speech which has just now
been read, it'cannot appear out of season
for me to congratulate the House on the
state of the country as- described in that
Speech. The spirit, zeal, and una.
Snimity of all classes, and the voluntary
exertions of every branch of the com-
munity, are unexampled in the annals of
any country, and have so effectually pro-
vided for the defence and security of the
kingdom, as to set all attempts of the enemy
to make any impresAion on our coasts at de-
fiance. I congratulate this House and the
nation in general, that the prosperous state
of our manufactures, and the great improve-
ment of the public revenue, will enable the
government to adhere -to that excellent
system of carrying on the war without any)
material addition to the permanent debt of'
the nation; a system, which, if closely pur-
sued, will infallibly disappoint the hopes of
our foe, and render abortive every attempt
of the enemy to destroy this country by de-
lay, and to keep it in a constant state of
alarm.-From the exertions that every
where appear around usi, I think the coun-
try in a situation of the greatest security ;
and it is with conscious pride I have ob
served, that, notwithstanding the extensive
and vigorous s) stem of internal defence that
has been adopted, our arms have been car-
ried abroad against the foreign possessions
of the en'amy. The valuable islands of
St. Lucia, Tobago, St. Pierre, and Mique-
lon, and the settlements of Demarara and
Essequkbo, have been added to the Briti`'h
empire.. The vigilance and wisdom of the
administration which- planned the expedi-.
tions against" them, and the zeal, bravery,
and spirit of the forces, by which such va-


luable acquisitions have been made, are en-
titled to the gratitude and acknowledg-
ments of the country. In the short space
of four months such advantages have been
gained, as, in every former war, would have
been reckoned glorious achievements for a
whole campaign.-It is with the highest
satisfaction I learn, that a convention has
been concluded with Sweden, founded on the
firmest basis of all treaties, the reciprocal
advantage of both the contracting parties.
-It is also matter of satisfaction and con-
gratulation to know, that the affairs of Ire-
land now appear to wear a favourable as-
pect, and that the change has been brought
about, without the necessity of employing
those extraordinary means, which the diffi-
culties of the times render it indispensably
necessary to place in the hands of the Irish
government. Such conduct must necssa--
rily impress the deluded insurgents of that
country, with a just sense of the blessings of
the happy constitution, which it was the ob-
ject of their wishes to destroy. The impar-
tiality and regard to public justice, with
which the several trials of the persons en-
gaged in the rebellion, have been conduct-
ed, reflects the highest honour on those to
whom the administration of the affairs of
Irelapd have been committed, and entitled
them to the respect and gratitude of the
country. His Majesty has expressed his
hope, that such- of his deluded subjects as
have swerved from their allegiance are now
convinced of their error, and that having
compared the advantages they derive from
the protection of a free constitution, with
the condition of Jhose countries which are
under the dominion of the French govern-
ment, they will cordially and zealou ly con-.
cur in resisting any attempt that may' be-
made against the security and indepen-
dence, of the United 'Kingdom. If after
such a comparison, any man can be back-
wlard or lukewarm in the cause of his cdunr,
try, let him call to his recollection the ex-
ample of his Majesty, whose wholo.life has
been devoted to the improvement and ad.,
vantage of his subjects, and who has. this
day come forward and declared t9 his peo-
pJe his 'determination, to share with them
the danger arid the toil. This is not,a war
merely fbr military glory, for extendeddo-
minion or for powerful allies; but.a war
forced upon us by an insolent f6e, in def'eic6"
the constitution, the laws, the religion of
this kingdom-; in defence of every. thing
dear and valuable to a people. Our con-
duct this night, will, I'trust, shew, that'
whatever may be the differences which re-.
vail amongst as in other respects, it is'our


4533]


[1534




L o

' *PA1RL. DEBAtES, Nov. 22.--'kinew.Spic. 13


unanirn'ous;r resoidtion to stand firm in A.the
defence of our Soverei'gn, and of our own
evil and religioLuI privileges. This is a re-
soluiiopi worthy of a free and generous peo-
'pie, fully -en;ble of the distinguished bles-
sing, whii'|h the' enjoy; a people magnani-
mous enou ,i 1. drop all party interests,
SWhen the welfare and security of the nation
i at stake. I therefore beg leave to move
That an humble Address be presented
to his Majesty. -To return his Majesty the
thanks of this house for his most gracious
speech from the throne.-To assure his Ma-
jesty that this house is deeply sensible of
his Majesty's paternal care and attention to
the safety and interests of his faithful peo-
ple,'in carrying into effect such measures as
Parliaiient has adopted for the defence of
the Uii'ted Kingdom, and the vigorous pro-
Ssecution of the war.--That it is highly. gra-
tifing 10to this house to reflect, that in those
prepIrationi his Majesty has been seconded
S'y the 'oluntary exertions of all ranks of
"iis people, in a manner which his Majesty
.ias been most graciously pleased to declare,
'1a3,1if possible, strengthened their claims to
liis confidence and aection.--That they
*feel with just exultation, that, the measures
oftfhe enemy have only served to rouse the
native and hereditary spirit of the nation;
iand 'that all other considerations are lost
Sin a gtreral disposition to make those efforts
aid sacrifices which the honour and safety of
the kingdom'-demand at this important and
,. -critical conjnncture.-,-They beg leave hum-
"bly to congratulate his Majesty on the im-
- pression which, notwithstanding the neces-
sity of principally attending to the great
object of internal 'security, has been made
on the foreign possessions of the enemy, by
the capture of the Islands of St. Lucia, To-
bago, St. Pierre, ari Miquelon, and of the
Settlements of Demerara and Essequibo;
arid they are fully sensible of the prompti-
tuIde and zeal displayed by the Officers eni-
'ployed in the conduct of the operations, by
which ilhoe valuable acquisitions have been
'ade,. and by the forces acting under their
comman.i b, 4e.i and land.--Thth they have
great satisfaction in reflecting, that tle lead-
.rs, -ers id several of the inferior agents in the
Sate traiterous and atrocious coocpiracy in
frehland, have been brought to justice, and
thai: the public tranquillity has c,,pei -rnced
rio further interruption; and they eirnestly
palticip ie -in the 'hope which, his Mljesty
3his ; g, c-uulv e'.1etsed. that such of his
deluded ,ublccts as hate swerved from their
alegiJnce are no\\ convinced of their'error;
"and, cniimpring the advantages they enjoy
IuiIjt the prc.teci,.n of a free constitution


with the condition of the Countries under
.the dominion of the French Governmen't,
*they *vill cordially and zealously concur in
resisting any attempt,' that may be made
against the security and independence of
the United Kingdom.- They assure 4 *Ma-
jesty that he may rely on the readiness of
his faithful Commons, -to make such provi-
sion as may be necessary for the service d'
-the year, and that they are fully sensible of
the importance of persevering in the system
which has been adopted, of defraying the
expenses of the war with as little addition
as possible to. the public debt, and to the
permanent burthens of the state.-They feel
a perfect confidence that their fellow sub-
jects will meet with fortitude, the pressure
-which the present situation of the country
renders unavoidable, under a conviction of
the' indispensable importance of upholding
the dignity, and of providing effectually for
the safety of the empire.-They return their
thanks to his Majesty, for his gracious in-
tention of laying before them the Conven-
tion which his Majesty has concluded with
the King of Sweden, for the purpose of ad-
justing the differences which have arssen on
the subject of the 11th Article of the Treaty
of 1661 ; and they trust thait it will be found
at once to uphold o'ur maritime rights, and
to produce the effect of maintaining 'and
improving .the good understanding which
happily subsists between the two countries,.
-That they are most deeply convinced that
it will be, as it ever has been, his Majesty's
first object to execute, as becomes his royal
dignity, the great trust with.which he is in-
vested; and they receive with the strongest
feelings of veneration' and dutiful attach-
ment the expression of those paternal sen-.
timents 'which induce his Majesty to consi-
der himself as embarked in one common
mon cause with his people, and which have
determined his Majesty,. if the 'otcasiori
should arise, to share their exertions and
their dangers in the defence of our consti-
tution, our religion, our laws, and indepen-
dence.-They beg leave humbly to assure
his Majesty, .that these sentiments will not
be lost on an affectionate and grateful peo-
ple, but will animate and invigorate the ac-
tivity and valour of his fleets and armies,
and the zeal and determination of his faith-
ful subjects, to which his Majesiy, under
the protection of Divine Providence, may
safely confide the honour of his crown and
all those important interests which are in-
volved in-the issue of this momentous con-
.test.-Partaking of these his Majesty's sen-
'timents, and joining with his Majesty in
humbly imploring the blessings of Divine


U,.


[i50@






PARL. DEBATES, Nov. 22.-Address. '


Providence, they look forward with a firm
conviction that if, contrary to all just expec-
tation, the enemy should elude the vigilance
of his Majesty's 'fleets and cruizers, and at-
tempt to execute their presumptuous threat
of invading the, coasts of the United King-
dom, the consequences will be to them dis-
comfiture, confusion and disgrace, and that
the exertions of this kingdom will be re-
warded, not only by the glory of surmounting
present, difficulties and repelling immediate
danger, but by the solid and permanent ad-
vantage of fixing its safety and independence
on the basis of acknowledged strength, the
result of its own tried energy and resources."
Mr. Burland.-Sir, In rising to second the
motion of my honourable friend, I find a
considerable degree of embarrassment; not
proceeding so much from the apprehension
of addressing this House, whose indulgence
I have before experienced, but from the
momentous crisis in which I am permitted
to address you. A crisis, Sir, which whether
we consider the general situation of the con-
tinent of Europe, sunk and depressed as it is
'by the predominant, influence of one power
-to the rank and level of a petty German State,
or whether we consider the particular situ-
ation of this kingdom rearing its head above
those clouds of anarchy and despotism which
have in succession shed their noxious influ-
ence on the globe: in whatever light we view
it, I believe it is a crisis unparalleled in the
history of antient, and I am confident un-
equalled in that of modern times.-At a pe-
riod like the present, Sir, when preparations
are making, the avowed object of which we
know to be the destruction of this country,
when even at the moment in which I am
now speaking; the meditated attack may pos-
sibly have commenced on our coasts, I am
sure I need, not call upon the members of
this House for that unanimity on which our
salvation depends. Small indeed, I am well
aware, is the influence which any argument
of mine would produce, but I rely with con-
fidence on thd unanimous vote of the House
in support of the motida of my honourable
friend, because the experience of the last
session of Parliament has taught me, that
whatever" shades of difference there might be
in political opinions on speculative or theo-
retical points, however gentlemen might
disagree.in their sentiments of past measures,
or of proposed plans of defence, yet, when-
ever the welfare of the King, the country, or
the constitution) was. at stake, this House
possessed but one opinion, and one voice.-.
Let us, then, at'the commencement of a
session, during which it is probable the fate
of this country will be decided, set an exam-
Vo .. IV.


pie of unanimity to the British empire-; let
us not by dissentions here paralyze the.efforts
which a generous and: patriotic enthusiasm
is making for the preservation of the country,.
-If, Sir, any argument was necessary in
favour of unanimity, from what source could
I deduce it better, than from the disunion,
the selfish politics, and the lust of partial ag-
grandizement, which have deluged Europe
with blood, and involved the innocent and
guilty. in one common ruin. But, Sir,
I feel no apprehension of the want of unani-
mity, either within 'these ;walls or without.
The moderation which his Majesty. invariably
shewed throughout the whole of the last
war, the disposition which he at all times
manifested to conclude a peace on fair, and
honourable terms, and the opportunity of
which he availed himself to accept proposals
of peace as soon as they were offered, have
convinced the people of the necessity of the
present war, and have united them in th,e
prosecution of it. I fear not the want of
courage in the people, or of vigour in- the
Government; but there is a. circumstance
from which I confess I do entertain some
apprehension ; because, if the threatened at-
tack is postponed to a more distant period, it
may diminish the energy of the people, and
may induce them to despise that danger,
which I wish them to view alike without
contempt or without dismay ; it is from that
improvident and overweening security whith
pervades many parts of the country. There
is a language which I frequently hear used,
which is in my opinion of so pernicious a
tendency, that I have always thought it my
duty, both as a' magistrate and a man, to re-
probate and refute it. It is a very common
phrase in all parts of the kingdom, to which
I think every gentleman who now hears me
can bear witness, that our present alarms are
imaginary, that Buonapart6 is as well con-
vinced of the impossibility of invading this
country as we are, that his preparationis'are
only meant to alarm us, and to involve us in
a ruinous expense. Now, Sir, if those who
hold this language would consider the, cha-
racter of. the enemy with whom we are to,
contend, if they would recollect that he' in-
vaded Egypt, 'and carried his arms further in
that country than European troops Had ever
penetrated before, at, a time when he was\
engaged in a war with all'Europe; if they
would consider the armament which covers
the coast of France from the Texel to the
Bay of Biscay; if they would recollect that
he has hitherto invariably attempted whatever"
he has threatened; that humanity, which
forms a barrier to the ambition of other'men,
is no obstacle to his views; that of so small
'* Mmn


[1538


1537]






PARth. DEBATES; NbV. 22.-Address.


estimation is life itself in his mind, that
the sacrifice of thousands, nay of whole
armies, is no impediment to his progress;
If they would reflect' on these circum-
stances, I think they could not for a'mo-
ment doubt, that he will attempt the inva-
sion thich-he has threatened, What the
event of that attempt will be, it is not for
human wisdom to foresee, but this it may
he fair to predict; that if, like the Swiss,
the Dutch, or the Hanoverians, we wait,
iiin a torpid or too confident security, until
the enemy is at our gates, we shall share
the fate of those unhappy countries; but
if,'on the" contrary, we go fort with the
spirit and the souls of Britons, to meet him
on our coasts; if we unite with one heart,
and one hand, in defence of our country,
we shall drive him back, with disgrace
and discomfiture, to' those who have raised
liim ,to the tyranny he usurps; where, -like
the Arch Fiend of old, he will' return to
his Pandemonium, and hear,

On all sides, from innumerable tongues,
A dismal, universal hiss-the sound
Of public scorn.

Biut, Sir, whatever may be the final issue
of this contest; however glorious its ter-
mination may be to Great Britain, I shall
always regret the revolution which it has
produced in the manners and constitution
of every state in Europe. For, Sir, the
habits, perhaps the prejudices, of my edu-
cation, have taught me to look with.a jea-
lons eye on every increase of military
power; and I grieve to think, that while'
the military desRotism of France exists,
every nation must rely, for the protection
of its liberties, not on its civil constitution,
but-on its military force. But, Sir, while
this evil does exist, for I must call it an
evil, thought I admit it to be- a necessary
evil, rejoice to see the hands in which
arms are placed. I rejoice to see a rank
and file of property, I rejoice that arms
are intrusted to those who will be induced
by iltterst, as well 'as, by principle, to
use them 4n support of the laws and consti-
tution of their country. Let me, .Sir, draw
a contrast between the military force of
the two nations; in the one I see the
-wretched -conscript dragged in chains to
fighlit the battles of his tyrant; in the other"
I see free and "independent volunteers.riish-.
iigin such numbers,that it is necessary to re-
strain theirardourand impossible to supply
all of then with arms, to the defence of
whom ? Of the father ofhis people, the King
ofa free country ofthe sovereign who comes


forth on this day, and pledges himself to
his people, that, in the hour, of peril, he %
will share their exertions .and their dangers-
with them, in defence of our constitution,
in defence of our religion, in deferice of
the laws and independence of his domini-
ons.-Sir, I have purposely avoided enter-
ing into a detail of the different subjects
touched upon-in his Majesty's speech, be-
cause my hon. friend has dilated upon them
in so ample and so clear a manner, that I
am apprehensive of weakening the effect
of his argument, by endeavouring to illus-
trate them. Gratitude, however, forbids
my passing over in silence, the conduct of 9
the British Navy. Of splendid achieve-
ments, indeed, the enemy has given them
no opportunity ; but the patience and per-
severance with which they have continued
to block up the ports of France, and the
vigilance with which they have watched
the motions of the enemy, so that I do not
believe the smallest boat has escaped their
notice, deserves our highest commendation.
The conduct of the hon. Admiral, who
commands the Channel fleet, in persever-
ing to hold his station on the coast of .
France, in defiance of the storms and tem-'-
pests incident to the season of the'year, is
above all praise.-I regret, Sir, that I can-
not look back to the events which have
taken place in Ireland with equal satisfac-
tion. But though the seeds of rebellion'
have again germinated in that country, yet
they have sprung from so weak a root,'
they have been cultivated by so unskilful
a hand, and .have been cut down at so
early a period, by the vigilance of govern-
ment, that I would willingly flatter myself
the time is approaching when they will be
finally eradicated. If, Sir, we may be-
lieve the dying declarations of the leaders,
of the insurrection, even they were not
sunk so low, as to wish for a connection
with France, or to be insensible to the'
horrors of French fraternity; pnd the-trials'
have -evinced, that the deluded people
who joined them, were influenced more by
former engagements,' and oaths imposed
on them, than by any conviction 'of the
justice or advantage-of the cause they
espoused.-I,have already occupied so much
of the time of the house, that I. ill' not'en-
large on, the wound which we have in-
flicted on the foreign possessions of the ene-'
my ; while we have detained their fleets,
blockaded in their own harbours, and
scarce suffered a single gun-boat to skulk'
frbm port to part. At any other period.
those conquests would have been consi.
dered as an adequate compensation for the


[1540






15411 PTARL. DEBATES, Nv 2-d~es


'expenses of' a' war ; but the splendor'6 f
.these victories is, in some degree, lost,, by
the very circumstance which ought to make
it more grateful to us, because they have
been gained without' bloodshed'; and be-
cause'the people of these colonies have
voluntarily sought the protection of a go-
vernment, whose mild and beneficent sway,
they had before experienced.-Sir, I am
now to thank the house for the indulgence
which they have shewn, and the patience
with which they have permitted me to
state my reasons for supporting an address,
which I trust will meet the unanimous ap-
probation of this -house, because I believe
it'speaks the feelings of every subject of
the British empire. `
Mr. Fox.-Sir, I do not rise with the in.
tention of objecting particularly to the pro-
posed address in consequence of the speech
which his Majesty has been most graciously
pleased to make to both .Houses of Parlia-
ment; nor am I disposed to dispute the
soundness' of the arguments employed by
the honourable mover, and seconder of the
address. I rise merely to advert to two
points; one of which is omitted in the
speech, and the other particularly alluded
to. -The point omitted in the speech is the
mediation of Russia:,a subject on which
I cannot help thinking, the house had a
fair right to expect some communication.
In the course of the last session of Parlia-
ment, when I called the attention of the.
house to the mediation of the court of St.
Petersbourg, a noble Secretary of State
(Lord Hawkesbury), not now in this
house, did, as strongly as language can
express, pledge ministers as not only ready
to accept of the mediation of Russia, if
offered, but, if not offered, directly to so-
licit it. The noble Lord distinctly pledged
himself,that Ministers wyerenotonly willing
to hear the ideas of the court of Russia, as to
the best mpde of bringing about an accom-
modation of-the differences betwixt this
country and France; but ready to state
what their own ideas were -of the most.
practicable means of restoring a gopd un-
derstanding betwixt the two countries.*
On this ground (said Lord Hawkesbury), mi-
nisters had not only expressed 'their willingness to
receive any proposition from the court of St Peters-
burgh, but they had gone much beyond this assu-
rance. They had declared their readiness *to explain,
in the most frank and explicit terms, the views which
they entertained .'on the points in dispute, and the
mode which to them appeared the best calculated to
briing'about an amicable arrangement, No question
of etiquette would stand in the way; the whole de-
claration of ministers liad been given in the true spi-
fit 9f p.eice I aid of his Majesty's declaration, an-


From, all that I have seen, heard, or obi-
"served, I'have every reason to think that
the noble Secretary was sincere in- the
pledge which he then gave, and that mi'.
nisters have acted on that declaration. One
would have naturally thought, then, that'
in a speecfr from the Throne, at the open.
ing of a new session, and after such an in'.
terval has taken place, as might afford
some grounds of ascertaining how far the
application was likely to be successful, bis
Majesty would have referred to the sub.-
ject, and put the House in possession of
the means of determining how far any ne-
gotiations were likely to lead to the result
which was in view. I am sensible that
this is not the particular day for. taking up
the consideration of the success or failure
of these negotiations; but the information, -
the want of which.I complain 'of in the
speech, will be very necessary, when, on
a future day, it may come to be discussed.
-The other point to which I wish to allude,
is one particularly referred to in the speech.
In that part of the speech which refers' to'
the. situation of Ireland, ,the House are
congratulated on the suppression of the late
rebellion in that country, and a confident
hope is held out of the permanent continu-
ance of tranquillity. From past expert
ence, I cannot easily flatter myself that
-such a hope will be realized. 'I can see
no reason to think that permanent tran-
quillity will be established in Ireland while
the present system is pursued. In the
speech' it is asserted, that'the leaders of
the late rebellion had in view the introduc-
tion of French dominiion into Ireland, and
that the whole plan of the insurrection was
founded on the co-operation of a French
force;, destined to overthrow the British
constitution as, now established in Ireland.
Whatever be the crimes of the men who
were the authors of the late rebellion, I
wish, in speaking of them, to be guided
by justice. But, Sir, have not the [leaders
of the insurrection most unequivocally di-
claimed all idea of a connection with the'
French Government? Have they "not
avowed, that they reprobated such -a con,.
nexion, even with an idea of promoting'
their owil views ? ,Whatever atrocities the-
rebelliion exhibited, afd certainly no man,

express assurance was given of his readiness to listen
to an'y proposal for restoring rhe blessings of peace ;
and he had now to assure the honourable gentleman
and the house, that ministers were ready to receive,
any ofler of mediation on the part of Russia, or.to
offer to the mediation ofthat power rhe proini in ds-
pute betwixt the two governments"-See Pteltical
Register, vol. iii. p. 730o,
Mm 2


1541]






1543)' PEARL. DEBATES,

can. think-or hear with greater' hprror,,f
tho'e atrocities than I do:. I must contend
that it is not just to stigmatize the authors
,of the rebellion with at-all leaguing them-
selves with the French government, in their
views of destroying all connection with
this coLntry. .A hofe is also expressed in
the,,speech, that those who had swerved
from their allegiance, were now convinced
of. thqir error. It is plain, Sir, that the
word here ought to have been wish, and not
hdpe. Under the present system of go-
vernment in Ireland, it is impossible that
an., swch hope can be rationally entertain-
ed ; for, % without a totally new system of
managing.the affair's of Ireland be adopted,
a hope of the Irish being convinced of their
error can, hardly be expected. It is not
said that another system is to be pursued,
but we are only told, that a hope is enter-
tained of the rebels being convinced of
their error ; thus shutting our eyes to the
fate of that-country, and the real state of
the case. This, I allow, Sir, is not the
day on which the consideration of the af-
fairs of Ireland can come fairly, before tho
house, but I should feel that I was not do-
ing my. duty to my country, if I were even
now to let it be supposed, that there can be'
any rational hope ot the continuance of
permanent tranquillity in Ireland unless
- pme measures aie resorted to, of a nature
very different from those now eriployed.
When we recollect the description given
of Ihe general loyalty of the people of
Ireland.; when we recollect the represen-
fations given in -the speeches of gentlemen
in this house, "we shall be careful, of at-
taching much weight to any general repre-
seitations of the state of that country. On
a subject so important as this is, I cannot
think it either wise or safe to trust much to
general words.' I hope and trust, that
gentlemen will' keep their minds open for
any future discussion which this subject
may create. I trust they will not be so far
influenced, by representations now' given,
or confide, so implicitly in general asser-
tions, as to .think futuYe enquiry unneces-
sary. 'It 'is the duty of every man. to re-
vo*lve.the matter deeply in his mind, and
not to forestall any measure or any decision
which niay hereafter take place. The
rnembers of this house could not feel them-
selves otherwise than guilty, if they suf-
ferd themrelvke to. believe in the continu-
ance of Iri.h tranquillity, because the
country is represented- 'as now contented,.
and" because hopes are held out that this
contentment is permanent.-Mr. Fox sat
down with declaring, that he should not


Nov. 22.-Address; [1544

disturb the unanimity-which there seemed
every reason to think would be maintained
in the vote for the address.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.-I rise, Sir',
for the purpose of replying to the observe,
tions which have been made by the hon.
member, on the speech with which his Ma-
jesty has been pleased to address his Parlia-
ment this day.- Although the hon. member
is not inclined to oppose the address, and is
disposed to entertain a favourable opinion of
the sentiments which generally. pervade it,
yet it would, he, declares, have afforded him
more unqualified satisfaction, if the medi-
ation of the court of Russia, whether suc-
cessful or not, had been explicitly mentioned
in the speech from the Throne; and that the
allusion to the insurrection in that part; of
the united kingdom called Ireland, had been
couched in other or more guarded expres-
sions.-Sir, the hon. gentleman has stated,
with accuracy, the general import of that
pledge, :which, during the last session of
Parliament, was made by my noble friend,
the Secretary of State, whom it has pleased
his Majesty to promote to a seat in another
assembly. My noble friend did certainly
declare, as the hon. gentleman has fairly
stated, that his Majesty's ministers were
ready to accept, not only now, but at any
future-time, the mediation of the Emperor
Alexander, towards terminating 'the un- .
happy and unprovoked hostility in which the
British empire was involved; and that for
the purpose of convincing all Europe, of
the equity of their cause, and the pacific
nature of their intentions, they would not
only accept it if offered, but that they
would even condescend to solicit it.. Sir,
for the information of the hon. gentleman,
I will communicate to him and to this house,
that that -mediation was offered by the court
of Russia, and accepted with readiness and
gratitude, on the part of his Majesty's ser-
vants; and although discussions of the
greatest moment were consequently com,
menced, yet I am sorry to say, that in their,
progress they did not assume such a shape as.
to lead to any probability of an amicable ar-
rangement with France. No man can be
more concerned than I am, that the inter-
ference of that court has not been attended
with that success which the hon. gentleman,
on a former occasion, seemed so zealous in,
his expectation of. I am not, however, at;-
all astonished to find,, that the hon. gentle-
man expresses surprise at not receiving more
information 'relative to this subject, ngr do I
think the'regret he has shewn at finding
any account of the issue of the negotiation,
omitted in his Majesty's spee at all uia<.






PARL. DEBATES, Nov. 2'.'Addwsis


reasonable. I can assure the hon. gent. and
the house, that his Majesty's servants have
no wish whatever to withhold all the infor-'
mation in their power respecting the discus-
sions which have taken place. The fact is,
however, that circumstances of a nature
which I hope may be temporary, but which
I will not positively pledge myself will turn
out to be of that nature, did prevent mi-
nisters from making a communication to the
house. Their wish was to conceal no in-
formation which could at all throw light on
the subject, but they did not wish that the
communication which they made should be
imperfect, as it necessarily must have been if
made under existing circumstances. Though
I will not absolutely pledge myself to make
a communication, even if the obstacle arising
from the circumstances to which I have
referred were removed, yet I can have
no difficulty in saying that I should 'not
be unwilling to gratify the house with the
information in question, if it appeared to
be the general wish of the house that this
information should be granted. What I
have said on this topic is, I trust, sufficient
to convince the house, that the omission of
the mediation of Russia in the speech was
. erfectlyjustified by circumstances. I will
now, Sir, advert to what the hon. gent.
said on the manner in which the speech
notices, the late insurrection in Ireland, and.
the actual state of that country. In his
Majesty's speech a hope is expressed, that
such part of his deluded subjects as have
swerved from their allegiance are now con-
vinced of their error, and that having
compared the advantages they enjoy from
the protection of a free constitution, with
the condition of those countries which are
under thedominion of the French govern-
ment, they will cordially and zealously
concur in resisting any attempt that may
be made against the security and inde-
pendence of the United Kingdom. I ad-
init, with the hon. gent., that even to the
worst of traitors justice is a debt which is
dtie, but do not see how, in this instance,'
any injustice has been done to the leaders
of the late rebellion in Ireland. The hon.
gent. contends that it is unjust to.attribute
,to the leaders of that rebellion any design
of introducing French dominion into Ire-
land. I cannot admit that the passage in
question will fairly. admit of such a con-
sutrctioh. It .is.mietely intended to convey
this'idea, that the deluded part of the.po-
pulgtion of Ireland, who might be disposed'
employ. French aid in destroyingi.their
connection with this country, would 'be
diverted from their views by contemplating


the contrast betwixt the condition qf their,
own country and the countries now'groan-
ing under the miseries'-of French domiha-
tion. I have heard it said, and I see B _
reason to doubt it, that the leader in that
insurrection, previous to the judgment of
the court being pronounced on him, ex-
pressly declared his abhorrence of any at--
liance with the French government, and
advised his deluded countrymen to con-
sume the grass under the invader's feet,
rather than suffer their native land to be.
polluted by the footstep of a French s6bi
dier. It may be allowed that some'of the
persons making such declarations were in
circumstances which lead us the less to
doubt their sincerity. I will even. concede
to the hon. member, that some-of the de-
clarations might be true, but if it be meant
to assert that none of the leaders of the late
Irish rebellion were inclined to eourt an al,:
liance with France, I must be permitted
most peremptorily to deny such a position.:
I have the best means of knowing that such
assertions are founded in gross falsehood'
Let it be recollected too what happened
during the rebellion. Let it be recollected'
that many of the leaders, though they had
no idea of introducing a French governf-
ment into their country, were not indis2-
posed to admit French aid to enable them'
with more prospect of success to prosecuted
their own views,. They were willing ti
admit this at the hazard of what they conoiC-
dered as a contingent, but what I mnst ever
consider as a certain evil, the evil of be;,
compelled to contend against French do-'
minion, even after they had succeeded in
separating themselves from this part of th(!
empire. But let this be as it may, let'the
views of the Irish be as.separate as pos-:
sible from any notion of French alliance,
my position is, that the contrast of their
own condition, and that of those nation's
which the French government has subjui-
gated, would induce them at all events t-:
resist the common enemy of the civilized'
world. This contrast would, I, ai:pe'ri '
suaded, operate as the strongest induce-e1
ment for them to abstain from the prosecu-
tiori of views which can only expose them
to destruction. The hon. gent. says, that,'
in the speech, instead of the loAse elpreq-e.
of such an event, it would have been but-
ter if the word wish had been introduced.
Sir, I willtell that hon. gent. and alsoith'i
house, that the persons. whom his Majesty
has called to his government; 'have noti
barely the wish, but a rational and well-"'
grounded hope of the establishmentdof ge-
neral and permanent tranquillity..-fit that


j'"W


,1545]


[1545


", I I






PA.RIL., DEBATES, Nov. 22.-Address.


country. Sir; I. state.,with the strongest
satisfaction, :aid witl no little -exultation,
that the conduct of-.his Majesty's govern-
ment has. operated a very salutary and
material alteration in the sentiments of the
majority of the people of that country.
But, the hon. gent. says, it is impossible to
expect the :continuance of tranquillity in
Ireland without attending more particu-
larly to the real situation of the country, and
unless some plan of removing existing.grie-
vances is resorted to. Whether it would
ise fit ,at all: to argue the question of the
state. of Ireland in the present state of
affairs, I shall leave to the wisdom 6f the
house to discover. For my own part, I
am not aware of the possibility of such a
discussion at this moment being productive
of one solid advantage. On the contrary,
I am thoroughly persuaded that the agita-
tion of the question in the present crisis of
affairs, could only tend to aggravate those
evils which I am sure the hon. member
: -ust as sincerely as any man deplore, with-
out' producing any one of' those advantages
which the hon. gent. is so anxious to ac-
complish. The hon. gent. has recommended,
to members to keep their minds open for'
future discussion, t' avoid the formation
of prepossessions, to be ready for the con-
sideration of the question whenever it'-
occurs, with moderation and impartiality.
It is hardly necessary for me to give any
pledge to the house, if the subject is ever
brought regularly under discussion, what
conduct I may think it my duty to pursue.
I shall studiously endeavour to keep my
mind unbiassed and unprejudiced by any
previous statements or antecedent repre.
sentations. The hon. member will find me
ready to enter. on the discussion tempe-
rately and gravely, and to be guided in
my judgment by what appears most conso-
nant to the principles of justice, policy,
and humanity. I trust that the house will
be content with this declaration, as to the
second objection of the hon. gent. on the
opposite bench, and that the unanimity
which is likely to prevail this night, may
experience no interruption; but that we
xnay carry our expression to the foot of
the Throne, with that ready and universal
ze'al,.which the sentiments contained in his
Majesty's most gracious speech so justly de-
mand. -
SSir Francis Burdett.-I do not rise, Sir,
for the purpose .of disturbing the unani-
rTity of the House upon the present occa-
sion.- shall tote for the Address. But
there is a matter of the greatest importance,
connectedd with that volunteer system which


has been so highly complimented in it;
which I think it my duty to mention. And
in so doing, I beg that I may not be mis-
understood, nor misrepresented. In' what
I am about to say, I mean not the smallest
censure upon the volunteers at large, nor
even upon the system: however I may
doubt, whether that system be or be not
the least expensive, or the most eligible
and effectual military force, either for the
purpose of defence or offence. Neither do
I intend the slightest censure even upon
that particular corps, whose conduct in one
particular I disapprove. I can easily be-
lieve, that they may have been actuated by
the best motives. The necessity of the
times, the novelty of their situation, zea)
for the service in which they have embark-
ed, may all have prompted them to speedy
and vigorous measures, the consequences of
which they had not maturely. considered.-
But, Sir, 1 hold in my hand a paper, which
purports to be an Address from the St.
Giles's and' St. George's Bloomsbury Vo-
lunteer Association,* directed to be carried

The following is a correct copy of the Ad-
dress to which Sir Francis alludes. The Committee
and the Commanding Officer of the St. Giles and
St. George, Bloomsbury, Volunteer Association,
most earnestly request your attention to the w4th-
in paper.-St. Giles and St. George Bloomsbury
Volunteer Association. -The Committee find
themselves under the necessity of laying before
the inhabitants of the united parishes, a state of
the fund of the Association; and of requesting
their particular attention to a few considerations
of much importance to the country and to them-
selves.-From the statement hereto subjoined, of
the subscriptions and the expenditure- already
made, and of the necessary current outgoings, it
manifestly appears that the fund (notwithstand,
ing the utmost econoniy has been used) is in no,
degree adequate to complete the establishment,
much less to continue it.-A great number of
persons enrolled, extremely zealous, but not opu-
lent, are at this moment non-effective, because
the fund is unable to furnish them with clothing.
-It is unnecessary to state many considerations
in order to excite the zeal of the inhabitants to
supply a sufficient fund by further subscriptions.
-The danger to which the country is" at this mo-,
ment exposed is too imminent and alarming to
require to be dwelt upon.-The time may possi-
bly be drawing near when the inhabitants would
gladly sacrifice one-half of their property to, be.,
secure in-the enjoyment of the remainder. It will-
be too late, when the enemy may be approaching
the metropolis, to supply the means-of training
and disciplining thlosewho have the courage and
zeal to defend it.-Few districts, if any, have
stronger reasons from .local circumstances, which
need not be pointed out, to wish for a strong vo.-
lunteer force to be ready in it, in case the regular
troops should be sent to the coast.-Few districts
are better able, from their opulence, to bear theo
\ necessary expense of a Volunteer Association,
either for the public defence, or for local profcci




*-\ -w


PRARL. fE1BATES, NoI. 22.-Ad&dresri


from hoi~se to house throughout .those pa-
rishles; calling upon those who had already
contributed, as well as upon those who had
not; giving their opinion of the ability and
wealth of, the different inhabitants; and
advertising them of an intended domiciliary
visit to each house by two of the corps ;
threatening to publish their names at the
close of the year; and particularly pointing
out the aged, the infirm, and the women,
whose fears may be supposed most easily
excited.-Sir, it is more especially my duty
to notice this, as it has passed in a county,
which I' have the honour to represent in

tion.-The Committee, from viewing the present
state of the subscription, as it respects either the
whole amount, or the sums given by individuals,
are satisfied that many of the inhabitants were
not aware of the extent of the necessary expendi-
tare, or of the claims upon them for furnishing'
the means of it.-Striking examples of pecuniary
exertions have occurred in almost every part of
the kingdom.-Many individuals have singly ex-
pended several thousand pounds in raising and
supporting Volunteer Corps.-Even towards a ge-
neial Subscription in one county a Nobleman
subscribed 2,oool. a Prelate 2,oool. several r,oool.
many private Gentlemen 5ool. 4001.ol and 3ool.
each; while, in these parishes, the highest sub-
scription. (except in two instances) has been 501.
That, sum, however, standing even as the highest
subscription, though small, in comparison with
the sums above-mentioned, would have produced
an ample fund, if others of the parishioners had
subscribed proportionably.-Ten different persons
have each subscribed Sol. making up above a sixth
of the whole subscription; while many others,
known to be of great opulence, either have not
subscribed at all, or have given sums so compara-
tively small, that the Committee -is most sincerely
convinced they have acted under misconception.
-The Committee abstain at present from pub-
lishing the subscriptions, until every person has
had a full opportunity of reconsidering the mat-
ter. Before the end of the year they will be pub-
lished.-1 he crisis admits of no false delicacy-
the present application is not to the liberality of
persons-it is a call upon their patriotism and
their duty, to come forward upon no less an occa-
sioh than that of rescuing their country from de-
struction, and of defending the very existence of
themselves and their families.-It is, therefore, fit
that the country should know who the persons
are that are zealous in its defence, arid who those
are that at such a moment can decline to supply
liberally the pecuniary means necessary to mili-
tary exertions.-Those who are unable from age,
infirmity, sex, or other cause, to render personal
service, should particularly recollect the great in-
conveniencies and sacrifices submitted to by those
who are performing military duty-they should
endeavour to balance their account with their
country by more extensive pecuniary aid.-Even
those inhabitants who are serving or subscribing
elsewhere, should remember that they have a stake
to protect in this district.-The Committee will,
in a few days, depute some of its members to ap-
ply to the inhabitants from house to house for.
their further subscriptions, and are confi-dent that
tlw application will not be in vain,-The inhabi-


this House.., It is impossible to foresee to
what extent this practice ~iny be carried.
That an armed corps'should be a, delibera-
tive assembly was never-thought advisable-
but that we should haye. parochial parlia-
ments through the land, raising money at
their will uponi the inhabitants,, could not
be borne for a moment: especially when 'it-
is considered, that these same persons un---
dertake to determine the gross amount of
the sum to be raised, and the quota of 'the
individuals, and that.these same persons are
to receive it, to dispose of it, and to partake
of it.-Sir, it is the duty of this House

tants need only pay, at present, such part of their
subscriptions as may be convenient, leaving it to
the Committee to call upon them proportionably
for. the remainder, by instalments, as it shall be
wanted."-By order of the Committee,
Nov. I, 1803. JOHN WRIoHT, Secretary.
State of the Fund of the St. Giles and St. George slomsis-
bury Volunteer Association.
Amount of Subscrip-
tions, from the z5th
of July to the ist of
Nov. 1803.......... 3o5' o o

Expended.
Clothing............ 1398 6 o
Accoutrements ...... 56z lo o
Drill Serjeants, Adver-
tisements, Drums,
Music, &c. &c. &c.. 609 4 o
2570 0 0
Further Expenditure necessary to complete
the Establishment.
Clothing for 300 Men
and Drummers .... 800oo o o
Great Coats, 6o0 .... 630 o 0o
Knapsacks, &c...... o050 o o
Pickers, Brushers, Dri-
vers, &c.. ...... 16 o o
Accoutrements, 300.. 450 o 0 .
Grenadiers' Extras .. 00oo o o
Light Infantry Ditto.. loo o o
Sentry Boxes ........ 00oo 0 o
Armoury and Magazine 250 0 o
Orderly Room- ......' 15 o o 0
Printing, Stationary, &c. 0io o 0
Pioneers ............ .90 o0 0
Erecting Abutment for '.,
Ball-firing, &c. .... 150 o o
5235 ,o .O
Current Expenses.
Ammunition ........ 6oo o 6
Armourers ........... 6oo o o
Drill Serjeants ....... 6oo o o
i8 Drummers........ 4oo o o
Secretary.............
Casual Clothing .... oo o o ,
Incidental Expenses .. 6o00 o o
Clerks, Messenger,.&c. too o o q
-- 3o00 o o

Total Amount necessary ...... i'bo5 0 o
Total Amount of Subscriptions 300oo o o

Deficiacy ,,,,,,,,,.,,,,,,. 80ooo o o


[1559






FARL,: I)EBATESi N0v. .23;-.Electiofl'agI52


especially to-meet; :hin he very beginning, a
principle so dangerous : and,-of all persoais,
rhe adini~nistratioh of tlhe country-ought to
lie the most alarmed at it; since the prin-
ciple.of this measure goes directly and im-
mediately to the destruction, not only of
this, but of every kind of government, and
tends to the introduction of that anarchy,'
of which so much has been said to be ap-
prehended. The motive mnay excuse the
individuals ; but it does not at all abate the
malignity o-f the principle : for it is well
1krinown that many of the most ruinous prac-
t.ces to nations have been begun from good
-Otives and for good purposes.-I have
;hIught-it my duty to take the earliest op-
portunity of noticing and reprobating this
measure; and .am persuaded ministers will
Sfke-care, that it shall not be necessary for
,ne to trouble the House hereafter on the,
.ibject.-The question was then put upon
'he Address, and agreed to nem. con., and a
committee appointed to prepare the same.
-Adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, November 23.
The house met at half past two o'clock, in
order to proceed to St. James's with the
address to his 'Majesty.-Lord Ashburton
tftok the oaths and his seat; after which
:heir lordships ajourned until Wednesday,
and proceeded to St. James's.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, November 23.
[MINUTES.1-The Speaker informed the
hopse that certain petitioning burgesses,
complaining of an undue election and return
for the borough of Great-Grimsby, in the
'county of Lincoln, had 'failed to enter into
their recognances within the period pre-
scribed by the act of-parliament, and that,
consequently, their petition could not be at-
tended to.-The house then proceeded to vote
the usual standing orders of the house for
grand committees on religion, courts of jus-
tice, trade, &c. &c.--Mr. Vansittart moved
an instruction to. the committee upon ex-
piring laws, that they do inquire what spe-
tific laws of a public and general nature
have been made by Great Britain or Ireland,
or'by the parliament of the united kingdom,
and which of -them have expired from Sep-
tomber, 1802, to the 22d of November
18.03, &c. and which of them are fit to be


continued, -&c. Ordered,-Mr. Jarvis gave .
notice that-he should on Friday ne.xt;move
for .leave to bring in a bill to prevent. thq
desertion and escape of petty officers sea-
men, and others, from his Majesty's service,
by means or under colour of any civil orcrimi-
nal process. He should have given this nqtice
for to-morrow, had he not tinderstood that
the house was to have the honour of waiting
on his Majesty with the address to-morrow,
on which occasion it was not usual to do any
other business.
[WATERFORD ELECTION- COMMITTEEE]
-Mr. Dundas reported at the bar, fronlithe
conmmittee- of the Waterford election, that *
tivo of the members, of thatcommittee, Mr.
Ward and Mr. F. W. Grant were absent,
and that the other members, after waitifig
one hour, ajourned.
The Speaker informed the house, that
since the nomination of the committee. Mr.
"Ward had ceased to be a member of that
house, and therefore there could be no fur-
ther proceeding by the house with respect to
him. With respect to Mr. Grant, there was
a provision in an act of Parliament for or-
dering his attendance in the house, to offer
his excuse for his absence, or to undergo the
censure of the house: a motion might there-
fore be made for his attendance in the house _
on a given day, which, of course would not
be a distant one -Mr. Dundas therefore
moved, that Francis William Grant, Esq.
do attend in his pl.iace'on Friday'next."-
After a fe-w observations from the chair,
upon the regulai'ity of the motion, and the
usual practice of the house on similar occa-
sious, the motion was putand carried.
[BOSTON ELECTION PETITION.]---Mr.
Ellison adverted to the petition of John Ogle,
Esq. complain of an undue, election and
return for the borough of Boston, in the
county of Lincoln, against Mr. Fydell, the
present sitting member. He desired that
the entry on the journals respecting this pe- 4
tition, might be read ; which was accord-
ingly done. He then desired that an entry
on the journals in the'year 1744, relative to
the case of a petitioner who had beeni allow-
ed seven days time to give in his qualifica-
tion, on account of his being beyond seas at
the time he was served with notice to -do
so, -which he said was precisely the case of
the present sitting member, Mr.' Fydell;
which entry being. read; he moved, "' that.
Mr. Fydell be allowed seven days from this
present day, in order to; prepare and lay be-
fore the house, a particular account of'his
qualification to be admitted as a member"'
4


1552. .






PARL. DEBATES, Nov. 23.--Addiess,


The Speaker entered into a full explana-
tion of the case. He reminded the house of
the jealousy with which they were always
actuated in matters of this nature. Yet he
was well aware that laudable as that jealou-
sy was, it would never stand in the way of
justice and equity when they could be- fairly
attended without prejudice to either party.
It was determined, byan.order of the house,
that when the qualification of candidates was
called in question, the particulars of that
qualification should be produced by .him
within fifteen days after the complaint of
his wanting, it, was made against him. The
usual ,notice, it appears, had been sent to
Mr. Fydell,- in .the pi'esent case, but not
complied with ; and the reason adduced for
his non-compliance was his indispensable ab-
sence beyond sea. A precedent, similar to
the present case, occurred in the year 1744.
It respected also a naval officer who was ne-
cessarily absent on the service of his country;
and the house then judged it fit to extend the
time. Should the house be now inclined to
.grant the same indulgence, they would agree
to the motion made by the honourable gent.
Mr. Ellison's motion was then put and
agreed t6. *

[RENEWED ELECTION PETITIONS.]-The
S/iedker called the attention of the house to
the renewal of petitions respecting contested
elections, and intimated that they should be
brought forward in the order of their priori-
ty, as they stood las(tsession. Those of the
fifth class were then brought forward ;
among the first of which were the petitions
.for Middlesex, Midhurst, and the Borough
-of Southwark. "
The Chancellor of thb Exchequer then rose
to suggest the propriety of deferring the con-
siderations of these petitions till after the
Christmas recess. Should it be the pleasure
of the house to adopt that suggestion, it
should be his wish to pursue the same plan
as that adopted last year, viz. that an order
should be made for a call of the house, and
that two petitions should be ballotted for on
two daya'of eachwerk. The house must be
sensible how inconvenient it might be to en-
force a call of the house at the present-mo-
ment, and under the present circumstances
of the country. Under that impression lie,
had no doubt but that they would see the
propriety of postponing the' consideration of
those petitions till the 2d of February, after
the usual recess. The business which 'was
likely -to call together a full attendance would
most probably be brought forward at that
period ; neither would the arrangement he
was anxious for, interfere in the least with the
VoL. IV.


time of theusual recess. Fie should therefore
move, that the petitions for Middles'ex and
Midhurst be brought forward on Thursday,
the 2d of February, and that for the Borough
of Southwark on the following Fuesday, the
7th of February. These motions were pat
and agreed to.

[ADDRESS.] -The Hon. Cropley 4shey
brought up the report of the address propos-
ed to be carried ,by the house to.the foot of
the throne, in return for His Majesty's most
gracious speech delivered yesterday, to both
houses of parliament. The address was read
a first time, and on the motion that this ad-
dress be now.read a second-time,
Mr. Windbam rose and addressed the chaii
as follows :
Sir; I offer myself to day to your no-
tice, not with a view of retracting in
any degree the assent which I gave yes.
terday in a former stage of this address,
but simply for the purpose of marking
more distinctly the grounds of that assent;
and obviating anmisconstruction which might
be liable to arise upon it. I wished the
question to pass unanimously yesterday, for
the same reasons which make me wish it to
pass unanimously to day ; namely, that no-
thing may seem to call in question the una-
nimity of our determination to give to-his
Majesty unbounded support, and to main-
tain the cause of the country through every
possible trial, and to the last extremity. I
should be sorry that any thing should ap-
pear on the face of our debates, which, in
the mind even of the most rude observer,
could create a 'doubt upon that subject.
But while we are guaTding against an error
of this sort, let us take care not to incur one
of an opposite tendency.; that, namely,
which would suppose, that unanimity i;n
support of the country was unanimity in
support of the ministers.- There may be
some possibly, who think, as there are'njany,
undoubtedly. wh6 wish to have it thought,
that the greater the dangers and dilficutlies
of the country are, by whatever causes
brought on, the greater must our acqmues-
ence be in.the mini tr) of the time being;
and the more complete our -ftirbea; atce of.
all that is usually called ppo'.iion. And if .
by opposition is meant a captious and 'rexa
tiou., opposition, an oppo ition on. things of -.,
doubtful nature or inferior consequence,. ati -
opposition fobr the purpose of jnpedin -mi-
nisters and making he g<., ei inenlt mnicult
to them. the opinion js ce.taml ., .Shli IbL.i .
ed. What it would .he hard to jutti ,
any time, must be -\ hcll i ijii 1,ha.bie in
circumstances such as those :up, used. But
*Nn -


- --~ ~ -..


' 1553]


[vlsaM






P-ARL. DEBATES, 'Nov. 23.- 4ddres..


if there are persons, who think ihat'of the
danger here alleged as a reason for sup-
porting ministers, tlfe ministers themselves
form the principal part; that the prepara-
tions of the enemy, however menacing,
would have little terror, if met with wisdom
and ability; that the seat of the evil is here
rather than abroad; that it is the weak-
ness of the-defence, and not.the vigour of
the attack that constitutes the danger; that
Buonapart.6 and hislegions, however terni-
fic, are not half so terrific as the little band
which we see before* us on the Treasury,
B3eneh; if there are persons who hold these
opinions, to such persons it would be idle
to say, that, for fear of exposing the weak-
ness or lessening the authority of ministers,
they were to stand quiet spectators of what
was passing, and were neither to attempt
to prevent the mischief, nor point out the
source from which they conceived it to pro-
,ceed. Such is the situation in which I feel
iniself to stand. I have no wish, and in one
view certainly have no right, to speak with
slight or disparagement of the abilities of
the hon. gentlemen. Individually consider-
ed, they are all meii of cultivated minds, of
liberal education, of good natural endpw-
ments, not unread in the history of their
country, not unpractised in its business, not
unprovided with those talents and acquire-
ments which are necessary for the conduct-
Sing of business in this'House. But if I am
to speak of-them collectively, as men form-
-.ing the council which is to guide the affairs
of a great empire, which is to rule the
world in a crisis like the present, I must
say, from whatever causes it arises, that
they are weakness itself. I really believe
the- country will perish in their hands. I
believe the hon. gentlemen will fairly see
us out; that we shall not outlive their ad-
,mifnistration;.thatjthey will prove, as I be-
lieve, I once before took the liberty of re-
marking to: them, the Angustuli in whose
hands the empire will fall. There is an old
joke which we may remember, of Cicero's,
who when some person had ceased to be
Consul on the same day on which he had
been made, ob'erted, that the person in
question might tell of a prodigy whjih few"
ofhis predeces-.ori could boast, for,, at the
sin had never ;.t during his co,,nsIlale. I
wi4i that soni,_Ihg equally ;ir. ..hI ou may
not be fuoind in 'i.- history of the hon. gen-
tlemen, and that it may not be to.. be tai. .sb
therl heredfier, that their ac.rnmii'ra. i
laite.J as.long a the country.-lt is now
juL tw'oyear; and' a fewweeks since I felt
.nm sell compelled to 'say to. Them in this
,pace, and upon something of a-similar ,pc-


casion, riamely, the first day of the meeting'
of Parliament, that they had signed the
death warrant of their country."* 'The
affairs of the country have been in their
hands, without interruption, from that day
to this. And can,we venture to say, that
the gloomy forebodings then expressed have
made no progress towards their accomplish-
ment, or that the hon. gentlemen do not
bid fairer to put the finishing stroke to the
work which they were then supposed to
have begun? With, these impressions, it is
childish to talk of forbearing opposition, in.
cases where opposition would otherwise be
proper, for fear of impeding the exertions
of the hon. gentlemen, or exciting a belief
that the country was not safe in their
hands. Were I to forbear any opportuni-
ties of so doing, I am sure it must be from
motives far different froni those of regard for
the safety of the country.-With respect to
the address itself, notwithstanding the care
which has been taken, and properly taken,
to avoid any occasion of difference, objections
to it would not be wanting, were this the
moment for insisting upon them.-In point
of taste, I could have wished, that less even
had been said, than has been, of the con-
quests in the West Indies, and the impression
thereby made on theenemy. Wretched, in"
deed, must be our view of things, if, at a
moment like the present, we can amuse our-
selves with such. objects, and not see, that
to the contempt in which the enemy holds
them compared with the immense projects
whichheis meditating, we owe, in great mea-
sure, the facility with which they have fallen
into our hands.-Upon tie subject of Ire-
land, I agree entirely in the remarks made
yesterday by an honourable gentleman (Mr.
Fox), that the hope expressed is too san--,
guine, either for the nature of the thing, or
for any confidence to be reposed in the tes-.
timony, on which we receive it. I agree
with him also, in the fears which I under-
stood him to express,--fears very far from
being allayed by what we have heard subse-
quently,-that the views entertained respect-
ing Ireland, and seeming in some degree to

The following is the passage to which Mr.Wind-
ham alludes.--" Sir, I speak in perfect plainness and
sincerity, from the bottom of my heart, and with.the
solennito of a dcath-bed declaration situationn
much reassembling ithatin which we all stand), when
I declare, that my honourable friends, who, in a
.moment of rashtness and weakness, have fatally put
their hands to this 'treaty, have signed the death
warrant to their country /They have given it a blow,
under which it may languish for a few years, but
from which I do not conceive how it is.'possible'for
it ever to recover." See Political Register, Vol 2,
p, ic093. .


S il


1553 '


,4




4


PARL. DEBATES,, Nov. 23.-Address.


be indicated in the speech, were far'from
being of a sort which promised tranquillity
or safety to that kingdom. But the part
perhaps of-the address most objectionable,
is that concluding paragraph, which speaks
of the issue of the present contest. The lan-
guage there held has too much tendency to
countenance a notion, than which nothing
can be more false and foolish, that by the
issue, of the present contest is to be under-
stood only the issue of the invasion ; which
once past and decided in our favour, all be-
yond is to be security and glory. We know
how readily the minds of men out of doors,
willrun into such a notion, and we may suspect
even some of a higher description within
these walls ; but nothing could be more dis-
graceful orfatal than that such a notion should
appear for a moment to be recognized by the
house at large. This-is all that I wish to say
upon the subject of the present address, ei-
ther generally or in detail,-One word more
only, upon a matter of a different sort, and
which I am tempted to introduce to day,
principally because it is the first occasion that
offers, and because no man can say, in our
present circumstances, whether the first occa-
sion may not be the last, nor how soon we
may be called away, as was- observed by an
honourable gentleman yesterday, to the per-
formance of duties more active at least, if
not more important, than those which we
have to discharge in this house -It will
equally with the other subjects which I have
touched upon, lead to no debate, nor re-
quire. from the honourable gentlemen op-
posite to me, even an answer.- I am
come, 'in common with many other gen-
tlemen, from a 'residence of some time in
my own country: and upon the result of
that residence, what I have to declare is,
that should any great stroke be struck in
the county of Norfolk, of the sort that has
beep pointed out to the honourable gentle-
men, and for want of those precautions,
which have likewise been pointed out to
them; I shall, certainly, think, that there
.will be grounds of serious criminal charge
against the bonourable gent., and should
the case n'ot be such as, by the very magni-
tude of the evil, to put an end to all proceed-
ings, to sweep away both accuser and accu-
sation,
To take at once the poet and the song,'
I shall probably feel it.my duty to stand for-
ward as the bringer of that charge.-More
than this upon the present occasion need nrot
.be said, nor could, perhaps, be said with
propriety. I had prepared, before I left
-Norfolk, a representation upon the subject,


and proposed it to a meeting of gentlemen-
assembled for other county business, wishing
to have transmit ted it to government with the
advantage of their signatures : but, for rea-
sons, which they, of course, thought satis-
factory, which were not explained, as in fact
no discussion was invited, and which I shalt
not presume to guess at, they declined to join
in the representation. It was my duty to
afford them the opportunity ; as I conceive
it t6have been my duty now to mention.the
subject in the way that I have done.-The
honourable gentlemen will not consider; me
as bringing a. charge against them, at-least
not one of which it is necessary for them to
take nc:ice, as it must rest for tho present
solely on the authority of the individual who
brings it, unsupported by any prodf. As a
menace even, the honourable gentlemen
will be entitled to hold it cheap, if they are
confident that no blame can be imputed to
them, but.that every thing has been done,
that can or ought to be done. It is as a'ne-
nace, however, that I intend it-; as the only.
means which I now possess of compelling at-
tention -to objects, which, in my apprehen-
sion at least, require to be attended to.-
This is all that I have to say upon this point.
Upon the general topick, I trust I have
sufficiently explained myself, and shall there-
fore no longer detain the house from voting
the present address, with that -unanimity,
which, under the explanation now given, I
shall be happy to see it received. '
The address was then read a second time,
agreed to, and ordered to be presented to His
Majesty by the' whole house; and those
members who were of His Majesty's most
honourable privy council were ordered hum-
bly to know His Majesty's pleasure when he
would be graciously pleased to receive the
same.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, .November 24.
[MINoTs.]-This day the Speaker came
to the house at half past two, according to-
the adjournment of the preceding day. Very
few members, however, gave their attmn-
dance,anJ at twentyminutes past three,wheni
the Chancellor of the Exchequer arrived,
there were not above thirty members present.
The despair of making a hous6 was at this
time very great. At length, about a quarter
before four, Mr. Serjeant, who had been
sent in .quest of members; arrived with the
member necessary to enable ,th- speaker to
take the chair, several of whot- fail bcea
called -out from the drawing room for that
pu rpose.-Lord Charles Somerset appeared at.
*Nn 2 .


[t1558 '






PARL. DEBATES, Nov. 24.-tWaerford-Election.


'e bar, and announced that His Majesty
having been waited upon to know when it
would be his pleasure to receive the address"
voted the day before, had appointed that day
at half past three o'clock:-The Chancellor
of the Exchequer moved the order of the
day for faking into consideration His Majes-
ty:s speech from the throne. That part of
His Majesty's speech which expressed a re-
liance on his faithful' commons for making
provision for 'the expenses of the ensuing
year, being read, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer moved, that a supply be granted
to His Majesty; and that the house should
to-morrow resolve itself into a committee to
consider of that motion." Ordere' -The
house then adjourned, and, preceded by the
Speaker, went up to St. James's with the
address..

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, November 25,th.
[MINUTES ]-As soon as the house met,
the Sp"eaker stated that ,he, accompanied by
several members, waited yesterday on His
Majesty, to present the address voted by the
house in reply to His Majesty's speech : to
which His Majesty was pleased to give the
following most gracious answer :-" Gentle-
men, I return you my warmest thanks for
this dutiful and affectionate address. Such a
declaration -of your sentiments at the prcs:'nt
moment cannot fail to afford me the highest
satisfaction. -I have the most perfect reliance
op the continuance of your support and on.
the zealous exertions.of my flithfi subjects,
to bring the contest, in which 1 am engaged,
to a successful and honourable issue."--
This:answer was ordered to be entered on the
Jodurnals.-A new writ was ordered for the
ele tion of a representative to serve in parlia-
ment for the town of Rye, in the room of
Lord Hawkesbury, called up to the house
of peers';-and a writ was alko ordered for
the Royal Boroughs 'of Inverness, etc. in
the room of Cumming.Gordon, esq. who.
sincp hs election, has accepted the steward-
,'ship of the Chiltern Hundreds.-The Chan-
cellor of Ihe Exchequer moved, the order of
the d:Ay, for the House to resolve itself into
a committee fur granting a supply to His
Majesty, and th:it so much of His Majesty's
n most gracious speech as referred to his re-
liance on hiii faithful commons fAr a supply,
be' referred to said committee.-T'he house
having resolved itself into the committee,
Mr. Hbbhouse in the chair, that pait of His
Majesty's speech was read, and the commit-
lee came to-a resolution that a supply be,
- granted to His M'ajezty.-The house was


then resumed, and the report -of the com-
mittee of supply ordered, to be brought up
on Monday.-Petitions were presented, com-
plaining of unduereturns for the boroughs of
Windsor, Weymouth, and Ilchester. Thetwo
former were ordered to be taken into consi-
deration upon Thursday the 9th of February,
and the latter upon Tuesday.the 14th-Mr.
Manning presented a petition from the di-
rectors of the London dock company, pray-
ing that they might be allowed to raise a
further sum of 500,0001., in addition to
the sum of 1,200,0001. already raised. Re-
ferred to the consideration of a select corn
mittee, which was appointed.-Mr. Vansit-
tart moved, that there be laid before the
house, an account of the net produce of all .
the permanent taxes in the years and quar-
ters, ending on the 10th of October, 1802,
and 1803 respectively. Ordered.

[WATERFORD ELrCTION COMMITTEE.].
-Mr. C. Dundas, at the bar, reported from
the cominittee appointed to determine the
merits of the petitions complaining of an un-
due election and return for the city of Wa-
terford, that, pursuant to the permission of
the house, that committee had adjourned from
Wednesday to this day. That they had met
consequently at three o'clock, when, finding -
that Francis William 'Grant, Esq. did not at-
tend, they had set for an hour, and their ad-
journed to half past four, directing the chaii'-
man to report the same to the house-The
report was ordered to be brought up.-Mr.
C. Dundas, as chairman of the committee,
then moved, that the said F. W. Grant, Esq.
be discharged from further attendance on
that committee. In laying the grounds for
this motion, he hoped the house would.ex-'
cuse him for stating briefly the circumstances
of the case. 'It would be in the recollection
of the house,, that previous to the recess, a
commission had been sent to Ireland for the
purpose of taking evidence, which commis-
sion had been returned with the minutes of
the evidence taken before the comnii.-oners;
upon a due consideration of which the com-
mittee was to' decide the merits of the peti-
'ltions. It would aNo. be in the recollection of
the house, that towards the close')of last ses-
sion, an -application had been made to the
house, by the consent, and for the convenience
of all parties, for permission to adjourn all
further proceedings till thesecond day of the
present session ; which permission the house
.had thought fit to grant, and the committee
had adjourned accordingly. This was a point
upon which any riember of the committee
could north hr ignorant,, as it must have been
eq,.al!y known to all. On the seconddy' of


[1560


1559]







161] '. PARL. DEBATES, Nov. 25.-'zaterford Election.-


this session the committee had met, Wvith
the exception of the honourable member,
whowas the object of the motion, when, on
reporting his non-attendance to the house,
they had obtained permission to adjourn fur-
ther to this day, in the hope that the hon.
member would attend in his place, and that
they should have the benefit of his advice in
- their proceedings. He, however, had ne-
glected to attend, and in consequence the
chairman thought it his duty, for the further-
ance of justice, and in order that the com.
mittee might be enabled to proceed, to sub-
mit the motion he had made to the house,
particularly as the provisions of the election
laws authorised a committee, on an Irish pe-
tition, to proceed, though it should be re-
duced to nine members.,
The Cbancellor of the Exchequer hoped the
house would not accede to the motion, unless
"very cogent reasons should ba assigned for
the absence of the hon. member. To dis-
charge a member from his attendance on a
committee, was an indulgence which the
house never granted but upon very substan-
tial grounds, and unless some conclusive rea-
sons should be assigned in the present in-
stance, he should feel himself under the ne-
cessity of dissenting from the motion. ,
Mr. Charles Grant begged to be indulged,
while he .stated in justification of the hon.
member what he knew of the cause of his
absence. The hon. member was at present
on duty with his regiment, which having
been lately raised, required all his care and
attention. He had not been aware of the
order of the house which authorised election
committees to continue, notwithstanding a
prorogation of parliament, and had neglected
to attend under an- impression that such com-
mittees were necessarilydissolved at the end
of a session. This was a fact which he could
confidently state, as he had himself received
a letter some weeks since from the hon.
member desiring to be informed on the sub-
ject, which information he was not at that
time competent to give.
The Speaker observed that there were two
distinct questions for the house to consider :
first, whether it should be its pleasure, for
the furtherance of justice, to enable the
committee to proceed, by discharging Mr.
Grant from further attendance ; secondly,
what conduct it would be its pleasure to
adopt, wish respect to the hon. member who
had absented himself from his duty. These
questions were wholly distinct, and it would
be for the house to determine in what man-
nier it should think proper to dispose of them.
'There was a case in point on the journals.
It was the case of Mr. Booth Grey, who,


removingfrom town on urgent business penid-
ing the sitting of a committee, of which .he
was a member, wrote a letter to the chair-
man, stating the circumstance, and request-'
ing him' to commnunicate the' same to th6
house. On the letter being produced, he
was discharged from further attendance ori
the committee, but ordered to attend in his
place on a certain day, and account for his
abserice.
The Chancellor if the Exchequer concurred
with the-sentiments that had fallen from the
chair. He had no objection to discharge
the hon. member froin further attendance,
in order to enable the committee to proceed,
'provided it could not operate to limit the dis-
cretion of the house, as to the conduct it
may think proper to adopt with respect to
the defaulter. He, however, submitted,
whether the object of the motion might not
be attained as well by wording'it differently,
that is, to enable the committee to pro-
ceed, notwithstanding the absence of this
member."
Mr. Ward concurred in the suggestion of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and ob-
served that the object of the hon. chairman -
would -be fully effected by so wording his
motion, which had been drawn up in the
other form with an unintentional inaccu-
racy.
Mr. Tierney did not think the case of Mr.
Grey applicable in the present instance. In
that case Mr. Grey had appeared by letter
before the house, in the present there was
no appearance whatever : and he trusted
that for the regularity of the proceedings of
the House, they would not suffer such a
resolution to be placed on -their journals,
without being accompanied by a good and
sufficient reason for the ground on which
they had adopted it,
Mr. Bragge.agreed with his hon. friend
(Mr. Tierney) that such a proceeding should
not appear on their journals without some
document to shew why it had been adopted.'
He submitted to the hon. member (Mr.
Charles Grant), whether he might not put
what he had already stated in that form to
the house, whereby it would be justified in
agreeing to the consequent preceedings.-
Mr. C. Grant's statement was then entered.
on the journals, as the ground on which the -
house assented to the following motions : '
1st. That F. VV. Grant, Esq. be. discharged'
from further attendance on the committee.
2d. That the committee be enabled to pro-
ceed notwithstanding his absence ; and, 3d,.
That F. W.-Grant, Esq. be ordered ,to. at-
tend in his place on YVednesday..kha seventh
day of December, nextt.


[ 1562 'A






15631 PARL. DEBATES, Nov

*[DESRTION OF SEAMEN.1]-Mr. Jarvis
rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, to
move for -leave to bririg in a bill to prevent
the desertion :and escape of petty officers,
seamen, aid others, from his Majesty's ser-
vice, by means or under colour of any civil
or criminal process. He should detain the-
hodsl. but a very short time, in stating the
g ouilds aud principles of the measure he
proposed to bring forward. There were too
many convincing proofs, that the processes
of law had been frequently perverted, for
the purpose of enabling individuals to escape
'from th' naval service, in which they had
been employed. It would not be necessary
tor him to trespass on the attention of the
house, by enumerating the various instances
of traodulent arrests for civil actions, or the
.mahy pretended.crimiual charges, under co-
lour of which, seamen had been removed
from the authority of their naval officer, and
then set at large, to the manifest injury of
his Majesty's service. The measure, he pro-
posedy would correct this abuse altogether ;
and he felt great satisfaction in assuring the
house, that it would not interfere with the
rights, dor infringe the privileges of any de-
scription of men. It would leave the sea-
man, who might be 'improperly impressed,
in the same situation as to his habeas corpus,
in' which he now stands ; and it would not
weaken the claiim of creditors, nor trench
upon their just and legal rights. It would
leave the arrested seaman, in the same sitna-
tion precisely, as to service, in which he
stood before the arrest, as its principal ob-
ject would be to secure his return to the
service to which he may have belonged, as
'soon as the action should be satisfied.. The
principal'object of the'measure he meat to
introduce, was to make sheriffs -responsible
for the return of such seamen as should be
.arrested 'uder their awtho&ity, to the service,
instead of being left at large on their release
from the arrest. It was to be obligatory on
the sheriff, in such a case, to convey the
seaman, within a reasonable time, and for an
adequate compensation, to tihe nearest port,
and-;give him up to theport-admiral, or re-
gulating captain, commanding there. The
consequence of this regulation would be an
eential benefit to the seaman, who would
be conveyed back to his ship free of any ex-
pense.' With regard also to seamen fraudu-
lently arrested, the bill would have almost
salutary effect, as it would effectually pre-
vent any future perversion of the process of
thd-law, to cover the desertion of persons
servingmin his' majesty's-navy. These were
the leading features of his measure, and, he
trusted, the house would concur with him in


. 25.-Desertion of Sedanen.


its expediency He. therefore should move
for.leave to bring in the bill, Leave was
given.-Mr. Jarvis then brought up the bill,
which was read a fiirs time, ordered to be
read a second time on Tuesday next, and to
be printed.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, November28.
[MIt'tTEs.j-The Speaker took the chair
at half after three.-Col. Hayne then pre-
sented a petition fot leave to bringing in inclo-
sure bill, which was granted.-Mr. Fosier ap-
peared at the bar from the Exphequer-office,
with an account of the net produce of-the
taxes of the current year, ending the lo0th of
October. The account was ordered to lie
on the table, .and a sufficient number of co-
pies, to be printed for the use of the mem-
bers.-Sir C. Bunbury presented a petition
from the debtors confined.in the county gaol
of Suffolk.-Ordered to lie on the table.-
Mr. W. Dundas gave notice of his intention
to bring in a bill to explain the acts relating
to statute labour in Scotland, with respect
to the construction of which, doubts subsisted.
He declined mentioning a particular day,
stating that it was his intention to write to
the representatives for Scotland, and to fix
such a day, as would be convenient to them,
for toe discussion of the subject.-Lord Cas-
tlereagh gave notice of his intention to move,
on Wednesday, for leave to bring in a bill,
relative to the bonding of East-India goods.
-Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of
the committee of supply." The resolution
for granting a supply was agreed to nem. con.
and the committee ordered to sit again on
Wednesday.-- Mr. Vansittart moved, that
there be laid before the house, the followi-ng
estimates, viz.; An estimate of the ordinary
expenses of the navy for the: year 1804;
an estimate of the expense of the half-payr
of officers of the navy, and such officers of
the royal marines, as served in the last war;
an estimate of the expense of building and
repairing ships of war, and other expenses
in his majesty's dock-yards, generally khown
by lthe denomination of wear and tear, for
the year 1804; an estimate of the expense
of guards and garrisons, and other descrip-
tions of' his majesty's land forces for.1804;
an estimate of the expense of ordnance for
land service, for the year 1804; an estimate
of the expense, incurred for services, not pro.
vided for by Parliament; an estimate of the
expenses of transport service, for, -the year
1804. Ordered.-Mr. Vansittart also mov-
ed, that an humble address be presented to
his Majesty, praying that his Majesty would


[1564






PARL. DEBATE5, Nov. 28.-bicome Ta*. t56


be graciously pleased to give directions, that
the proper officers should prepare such esti-
mates,' and lay them before the 'house.
Agreed to.-Petitions relating to the contro-
verted elections, for the following places,
were laid on the table, and appointed for
consideration in the following order :-Ayles-
bivy and Glasgow, February 14 i Baldock
and Honiton, February 16; Carrickfergus
anrd Sudbury, February 21; Minehead and
Hereford City. February 23 ; London and
Coventry, -February 28; Stirling, March 1,
1804.-Mr. Adams gave notice, that on
Wednesday next, he should move to vote
the seamen, deemed necessary for the service
of the year 1804.
[INcoME TAX.]-Mr. Alderman Combe
wished to be informed by the Secretary of
the Treasury, whether there was any inten-
tion to bring in a bill to simplify the act of
last session, relating to this tax. Much dif-
ficuliy was, at present felt, in making out the
returns; and it was therefore extremely de-
sirable, that it should be decidedly stated,
whether any alteration was to take place in
the standard by which the return was to be
regulated, and the manner in which it was
to be made, as the act now stood.
Mr. Vansittart said, he bad no intimation
from hismajesty's ministers, that any altera-
tion was to be made id the act alluded to by,
the worthy Alderman. On the contrary, he
understood it to be their intentions, that, for
the present, the returns should be made, ac-
cording to the act, as it now stood ; and that
this should be continued for one year, in
order to afford a full and fair trial to the pre-
sent system. `The whole of its faults and
deficiencies, which would then be perfectly
understood, may be then corrected by one
bill, which would be much better than to
trouble Parliament at present with separate
bills on every supposed and ill-conceived dif-
ficulity or imperfection.
Mr. Alderman Combe expressed himself
satisfied with the answer given by the ho-
nourable gentleman.
[BARRACKS.] Admiral Berkeley wished
to know, whether the expense of the bar-
racks now building, was to be included in the
estimates just moved for.
'Mr. Vansittart said, the expense of bar-
racks was not one of those included in the
estimates, which he had moved the house to
order.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
S Tuwday, Nwvember 29,
.[Mi~~rTE. -Mr.; Hurrt brought up the
reportt of the Comiiittee on i.eexntii g


laws. It was 'ordered to lie on the table,
and to be prinfed.-Sir Rbtert &,xton moved
that, -there be laid before the house an ac-
count. of the quantity of strong beer, table
beer, arid small beer, brewed in thiscountry
and liable toduty,fro-m the 'th Jan. 180o,to
the 5th Jan. 1803.-Mr. Varisitart suggested
the propriety of wording the motion in such
a way as to enable the officers to whom the
order was to be directed, to comply with
the desire of the house, and with the wishes
of the hon. baronet, which it would be
impossible for them to do if the motion,
remained as it at present stood, as they
could have *cognizance of such beer
only as actually paid the duty.--The
motion, amended according to this sug-
gestion, was put and agreed to.--The
bill for preventing the desertion of petty
officer, and seamen was read a second time,
and ordered to a committee ofthe whole houle
on Thursday next--Mr. Steele appeared at
the bar, and informed the house that his
,Majesty had been waited upon with ,the
address voted yesterday, for the production
of certain estimates to the house, and that
his Majesty had been graciously pleased to
order the same.--Mr. Tierney presented a
petition from the debtors confined in the
county gaol of Surrey.-It was ordered to
lie on the table.--Mr' Adams brought up
the account of the estimates of the ordinary
and extraordinary expenses of the navy for
year i io4. Ordered that'these estimates
-be taken into consideration on Friday next.
--The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave
notice, that he would to-morrow move for
leave to bring in a bill to -continue further
the restriction of specie from the Bank.
---Mr. Corry gave notice of a similar mo-
tion with respect to the Bank of Ireland.,'
[PRIVATE PETITIONS.] -The Ch'ancello-
of the Exchequer said, he thought it necessary
to fix upon some specific day, beyond
which private petitions would not ,be re-'
ceived by the house, in order to prevent
the inconvenience which frequently took
place in consequence of the too long ex-
tension of the time generally allowed for
that purpose. He wished, however, to put
off such limitation to such a day as.should
leave no room for complaints or excuse
to any person desiring to petition, and he'
at the same time was anxious that it should
be generally understood that no further
time would 'be allowed. This arrangement
he was urged to propose from a recollec-
tion of the trouble too often occasioned by
the great overflow of private business at
t.at period of the sessions, when a quantity
.. pos(tant public affairs Wvas to be. at-


[1566






PARL. DEBATES, -Nov. 2S,-Barracks.,


tended to. The right hon. gent. concluded
with moving, that the 24th of February
next should be the last day fixed upon for
the acceptance of' private petitions. This
motion was agreed to.
[WATERFORD ELECTION COMMIT-
TEE.]--Mr. Deverell, a member of the
Waterford Election Committee, rose to
move that James Pedley, Esq. one of the
members of the said committee, be excused
his attendance on that committee, as his
presence was necessary elsewhere, on ac-
cout of the death of a near relation, and
private business of a very urgent nature,
The Spieaker informed the hon. member
that the usual mode of proceeding on such
occasions, was, that the member who mo-
ved the leave of absence should come for-.
ward to the table, and state in writing the
grounds 'upon which he rested his motion.
That he should verify these grounds upon
oath,'and that then the house would decide
on the propriety of acceding to the motion.
-The hon. member having accordingly
approached the table, and deposed upon
oath the grounds of his motion,
The Sp/eaker acquainted the house, that
the grounds of the motion were, that James
Pedley, Fsq. was called to Jamaica by very
urgent private affairs. That he had taken
his passage on board a vessel that was to
sail .from Port.rmouth for that island, and
that he had received a letter intimating to
him that the ship was ready to sail without
delay. -.
Mr. Deverell, after stating these grounds,
moved, ihat James Pedley, Esq. have leave
of absence from further attendance on the
WVaterford Committee.-On the question
being put. I
The Atqcrvey General rose, and observed
how painful a task it must be to any man
to oppose a motion supported on such
'grounds am. those upon which the present
motion was rested. But the house must
feel how essential it was to pause before a
precedent of such importance should be
established. He certainly could not now
pretend to make up his mind upon the
-question, and should feel it his duty to take
smdvice upon the point, before he gave it his
dissent. The learned gent. then proceeded
to. observe that the Waterford Committee
was already reduced to twelve-that should
the leave of absence now solicited, be grant-
ed, the number would be eleven, within two
of the number absolutely necessary for pro-
secuting the business before the committee.
Thus might a complete suspension of the
roost essential business of the House of Com-
mons be brought entirely at a stand; be.


sides, sickness, and other equally embarras,
sing difficulties, might preclude the attend-
ance of the remaining members, which
might induce a total suspension of the most
important and essential ptoaeedings. Under
that impression, he felt this duty to move
that the debate on the motion be adjourned
till to-morrow.-The question was put on
this amendment and agreed to.
[BARR ACKs.]-Admiral Berkeley, seeing
th- Secretary at War in his place, rose to
ask a question respecting the mode in .which
the house were to be informed of the ex-
pense of the barrack department. Whent
he had inquired into this matter yesterday,
an hon- gent [Mr.- Vansittart] had not been
able to give him an answer which he could
consider satisfactory. What he desired to
be informed of was, whether the expense
of the barrack establishment was mrentioned
in the general estimates to.be laid before
the house. The contracts for the building
of barracks were enormous, particularly in
the part of the country (Sussex) where he
had lately resided. At a time when the
general expenses of the country were so
great, it was of importance to have the
expense of cotitracts fully corisidered. With
the view of bringing the matter under con-
sideration, it was. however, previously ne-
cessary that the point to which he had re-
ferred should be explained.
The Secretay ar W-ar [Mr. Bragge] could,
not at present give a decided opiniori in
what marinner the estimates for the barrack
department would be brought forward. He
could mention, however, .generally, that it
was not intended to include, them in the
estimates for the expense of the army. As
to the amount of the contracts, he should
only' observe that they were formed on prin- -
ciples of as strict economy as government
could obtain. It was not to be supposed
that, in the present circumstances of the
country such works could be executed at as
cheap a rate as in other periods. Labour
had necessarily increased in price, and the-
difficulty of procuring workmen to complete
the works with sufficient celerity naturally
enhanced, the demands of those who con-
traced with government. "

HOUSE OF LORriS.
I TWedneiday, November 30.
[MINUTES.] ---Their lordships met this
day pursuant to adjournment.-The Lord
Chancellor informed the house, that his
Majesty had been pleased to return a most
gracious answer to their lordhips' address,


, [.568.






PARL. -IEBATES, Nov. 30.-Etist-Idia Bonds.


which was ordered to be entered on the
journals of the house. It was nearly to the
same effect as the answer made to the ad-
dress of the House of Commons.- The
hearing of certain appeal causes were then
severally ordered for the ensuing week;
after which the Lord Ciancellor informed
their lordships that he lihad some matters of
consequence to communicate which respected
their privileges. Strangers were in course
ordered to withdraw ; and after a short
interval the house adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
T'ednesday, November 30.
[MINUTES.]-Colonel Stewart to6k the
oaths and his seat.--The Speaker acquainted
the house, that the petitions complaining of
undue elections, and the returns to the bo-
roughs of Hull, Leomiinster, Shaftesbury,
and Boston, had not been renewed in the
present session of Parliament, pursuant to
the provisions of the 2Sth of his present
Majesty : and that he had certified to his
Majesty's court of exchequer, that the re-
cognisances 'in these cases had been forfeit-
ed.-General Bartlett brought up an enclo-
sure bill, which was ordered to be read
.a first time.--Mr.,Manning brought up
the report of the committee to whom the
petition of the London Dock Company had
been referred, and obtained leave to bring
in a bill to allow the said company to
raise by loan, or otherwise, a sum of
500,000 1. in addition to their original ca-
pitl of 1,200,000 1.-Sir P. Stephens, in a
Committee of Supply, moved, that it be the
opinion of the committee, that 100,000
seamen, including marines, be voted for the
year 1804.--That a sum not exceeding
S2,405,0001. be granted to his Majesty, for
wages for these 100,000 men, for thirteen lu-
nar months, at the rate fll. 17s. per man per
month; that asum not exceeding 2,470,0001.
be granted for victuals for them for thir-
teen lunar months, at the rate of 11. 18s.
per man per month ; that a sum not ex-
ceeding 3,900,0001. be granted for wear
and tear of ships for that complement of
men for thirteen lunar months, at the rate
of 31. per man per month ; that a sum not
exceeding,325,0001. be granted for ord-
nance for the sea service, for that comple-
ment of men for thirteen lunar months, at
the' rate of 5s. per man per quarter.-The
fesolutibns were 'all agreed to; and the
house being resumed, the report was order-
ed to 'be: received to-morrow.-'Mr. Secre-
tary Yorke gave notice, that he should on
Friday next, move, for leave to bring in
" Vo,. IV.


two bills,, to: continue, for a time 'to-be
limited, two bills of last session, for themals-
pension of the Habeas Corpus Act ad'foe.
the suppression of rebellion in Ireland.
-Mr. Vansittart moved, that there belajid
before the house the. following estimates:
An estimate of the expense of. thehire pf
transportsfrom January 7, to December 31,
1804 ; An estimate of the expenses,: of
prisoners of war, in health, for the same
period ; An estimate of the money that will
probably be wanted for sick prisoners-of'war,
for thirteen lunar months, from Janutaryi
1804.-The motions were all agreed to, and
an address ordered to be presentedby such
members as were of his Majesty's, Pivy
Council, that his Majesty would :be g-.
ciously pleased to order the said estimate4 to
be laid before the house. .
[EAST INDIA BODs8. ]- Lord Cqske-
. reagh, pursuant to his, notice on a foirner
day, rose to submit his motion to the
house, on the subject -of the East-India
Company's bonds. The house would be'
aware of the importance of the measure
he had to propose, inasmuch as the value 'of
the East-India Company's- capital wars ma-
terially influenced by the circumstances un-
der which their securities were circulated.in
the market. The object of the:bill -'he
meant to bring forward, would be to place
India bonds, as nearly as possible, onthe same
fooling as Exchequer bills, and theiopera-
tion of it, of course, would extend t6 rtwo
points, in which they differed from .sukh
government securities. The first point-re-
lated to the manner in which the duty
charged under the property tax act was le-
vied on income, arising from such property,
which rendered it less desirable to the holder,
and of course, tended to depreciate its value.'
As the tax was levied under the provisions
of that act, the directors were authorised to
deduct the shilling in the pound from the
interest payable on India bonds; so that,
whatever may be the income of the holder,
the full amount was in this instance to b&
levied, even though he should not possess
1501. per annum. Such a mode of levying the
'tax, operated directly to diminish the con-
venience of such property, and consequently
to depreciate its value.. It was, however, to
be admitted, that the party had aremedy by
an application to the commissioners for an
abatement in every case, where his rateof
income, or other circumstances, should enh-
title him to su6h abateinent. But, whrti;it
was considered how onerous anid oyerose
such application must prove to individuals,
he trusted the house would not obj.'ct to the
principle for simplifying the made of col-
*0 Q


1569]






PAkl,. DEPAT.AS, Nov., g0.-Pank Resirki iox 13ll


electing the tax4 by enabling,h6lder 'of India
bonds to includethe 'interest thereof in the
General statement of their income. He was
the more confident of this, as the modifi-
icsation would not interfere to any consider-
able amount with the income duty. The
gross amount of India bonds, issued by the
company, did not exceed 80,000 or 90,0001.
,the. duty upon which, would of course be
'inder 50001. and not of sufficient weight with
.the house to induce it to with-hold a facility
-,':.to the operations of a great commercial comn-
.pany; particularly as the just amount of the
iLduty would not be eventually affected there-
itby. This was one object of his measure ;
the other regarded the rate of interest which
Iadia bonds bear, with reference to the inte-
Test payable on Exchequer bills. The com-
pany was by law prohibited from giving
toore than five per cent. on their bonds,
w'hereas Exchequer bills bore a rate of in-
terest' per day, which'amounted annually to
b.l. -s. 6d. per cent. This circumstance
rendered the property in India bonds, less
desirable than other property capable of
producing a higher rate of interest, and was
of course injurious to the company; besides,
it was material that in time of war the
bonds of the company should not be ousted
froml'the market. Though the rate of int--
rest had been limited by law, the noble.
Cord was sure it had never been in the inten-
tion of the legislature to place India bonds
tender disadvantages, to which no other pub-
lic securities were liable. He was aware
that it might be urged, that there ought to
be some distinction, between the interests of
the public and that of a commercial body,
but he was confident the legislature would
Jiot look upon the India company as a body
wholly mercantile. Their interests were so
'closely interwoven with the interests of the
public at large, which was to enjoy a parti-
ipation of their 'resources, that the public
could not be a gainer while the company
-was a loser. His object, therefore, was, to
enable the India company to give an interest
on their bonds, not exceeding the rate of
interest which exchequer bills may bear at
any time, in order that they may enjoy
their fair proportion in the mtnarket for the
-. Lirculating medium. He did not see any
-t2ecessity to trouble the house further, he
Therefore should move for leave to brftag
'in a bill to regulateindia bonds, with regard
to, the rate of interest and duty payable
thereon."-Leave given.
N~k NA lESTRIcTION BILI. ]-Tlhe Chan.
cellor of tbe Exchequer after moving, that
the several acts imposing a restriction on the
issue of tash in the payments made by the


Bank be read," stated, that it was not his
"intention to preface the motion he meant to
submit to the house with many introductory
observations. There had, on a former occa-
sion, existed considerable objections to the
measure for confirming the order of coun-
cil by which the restriction of the issues of
cash from the Bank had been imposed. He
was himself of opinion, that the measure
was a wise one; and whatever doubts might
have existed, in the firt instance, as to its
expediency, had been fully and satisfactorily
obviated in the discussion which had taken
place, on the subject's being brought before
the house. But though doubts had been
entertained as to the propriety of the mea-
sure, during a period of peace, he had ne-
ver heard its policy questioned during- a
period of war. Under the impression,
therefore, that no doubts existed on the sub-
ject, he should take it for granted, that no
objection would be made, in the present in-
stance, to a renewal of the measure. It was
satisfactory to know that the credit of the
Bank had remained firm and unshaken, dur-
ing the past experience of the measure, and
that its sufficiency to make good its en-
gagements, both was, and is, unaffected
by even the slightest suspicion. It was
highly to the credit of the Bank, too, that
it had not availed itself of the dispositions
of the act, to issue a quantity of paper ex-
ceeding the amount of its capital; or abused
the discretion, which a measure essential
to the public welfare, necessarily left for its
own private ends. It was, however, expe-
dient, that the house should, from time,to
time, be made acquainted with the quantity
of paper in circulation, and he proposed to
move for an account of that which was
actually in circulation at different periods
during the last year ; but he should first
move, for leave to bring in a bill, to con-
tinue, for a time to be limited, the restric-
tion on the issues of cash by the Bank of
England."
Mr. Jekyll.-Sir ; I do not rise to oppose
the motion of the right hon. gent. but to
direct his attention, and that of the house,
to the lamentable state to which the public
are reduced by the want of circulating spe-
cie. The shameful practice of hoarding up
cash, has been carried to such an excessive
pitch, that it is with great difficulty, specie
can be procured for the common purposes of
life. T am sorry to observe the prevalence
of this ungenerous feeling, at a crisis,
which calls for every possible exertion; andk
I am assured, from the respectable autho-.
rity of a principal banking-house, that, if
the practice be not put a stop tov, bankers







PARL. DEBATES, Nov. 30.-TWaterfordElection.


will in a short time, not be able to procure
specie for the .fractional parts of change. I
have seen too, in a newspaper of this morn-
ing, some resolutions of a respectable cor-
poration,* calculated to meet the evil, and
recommending the acceptance of dollars at
a certain rate, and of French crowns and
half crowns, in change. These observa-
tions I. have thrown out, Sir, merely, to
call the attention of the right hon. gent. to
a grievance, which loudly calls for legisla-
tive interference.
The Chancellor of the Erchequer agreed
with the lion. gent. that the evil of which
She complained, but too certainly existed ;
and assured him, that it had been rider the
consideration of his Majesty's government.
Hle admitted that the hon. gent. had com-
mented justly on the baseness of such a
practice, at such a crisis. The remedy,
however, rested with individuals, who might
easily correct a practice, that was as incon-
sistent with public spirit, as it was with the
duty of a ,good citizen.-The motion was
then put, and leave given to bring in the
bill. After which the Chancellor of the
Exchequer moved, that there be laid
before the house an account of the amount
of Bank of England notes in circulation
on the Ist of June, 1st of August, 1st of
October, and 25th of November, 1803;
distinguishing the amount of the value of
those below 5l." Ordered.
[WATERFORD ELECTION COMMITTEE.]
Mr. Deverell moved the order of the day,
for renewing the debate on the motion for
excusing Mr. Pedley from his attendance on
the Waterford committee.
The Speaker said, he conceived it to be
lhis duty to state to the house, that affairs
of an urgent nature having called the hlion.
gent. mentioned in the motion, to the island
of Jamaica, and that the gentleman having
long since taken his passage, it was moved
that he obtain leave of absence from the
committee on the Waterford election, on

The following is the circumstance to which the
hon. member alluded :-In consequence of the great
inconveniencee experienced at Portsmouth from the
scarcity of cash, a meeting was held, pursuant to
advertisement, at the Guildhall of that place, on
the 22d of November. The mayor presided and,
after some discussion on the means of alleviating the
difficulties and inconveniencies so. seriously, felt at
Portsmouth and Portsea, for the want of gold and
silver for the purposes of trade, it was unanimously
resolved, that dollars should be admitted into tem-.
porary currency, at 4s. od. each, hut that no per-
son should engage to take more than four in one
payment; and French crowns at ,.and half crowns
at as. 64d. *


which he was appointed. The question
beiog put,
Mr. Deverell rose. He recapitulatedA
what he had said on the preceding evening,
He stated farther, that the hon. gent.. al-
luded to had spent seventeen or eiglfeen
years si the island of Jamaica, and had only
lately left it. It was scarcely probable,
therefore, that a man in such circumstances
should have left his affairs in such a situation,
as not again to require his personal presence,.
The hon. gent. entered further into a mi-
nute discussion of the observations of the
Attorney General on the preceding evening,
and endeavoured to obviate that right hon.:
gentleman's objections. He stated, that it
would be a very hard case, indeed, if genn,
tlemen should be excluded from attendance.
on their own private and most interesting
affairs; affairs in which their happiness an&d
personal respectability were deeply impli.-;
cated, merely because they had been ap-
pointed on a committee, the business of
which might be otherwise executed without
injury to the public. He appealed to the
feelings of the house. Was it. a ease ta
which any gent. present would wish to sub-
mit He alluded to a precedent, where
nine out of fifteen haid sat and transacted the
business of an election committee, whereas.
even in case of the hon. gentleman's ab.
sence, there would still, according to the
Attorney General, be eleven on the Watertr
for' committee.
The Attorney General rose. It was fhrj.
he said, from his intention to oppose thp
private interests of any member of that
house, and in regard to the gentleman al-
luded to, he would be the last to throw any
obstruction in hisway. So much was this the.
case indeed, he said, that if the question.
were at this moment put, it would be more
agreeable to find that the gentleman should
obtain leave of absence than that he should
not. To be refused, indeed, in such cir-
cumstances, he thought would be a very
hard case; and let it be brought home to
the feelings of any gentleman'here present,
he was as sensible as the hon. gent, who
spoke last, that no one could deny the forge
of his argument. The hon. gent. had stated,
that he had said the whole of the business
would be at a stand, should more of the
members be absent than now w.ere. This.
was not directly the idea h6 had expressed.
He had meant to say, that if one, two, or
three, were permitted to absent them-
selves upon business, others might claim the
same privilege, and of course no reliance
could be placed upon any committee ap-
0 pointed


21




'> 1


FARL. DEBATES, Nov. 30Q. alIerford Election..


pointed by the house; and such really was
eae ease in the present instance ; three had
already dropped fr6m the committee in ques-
tion, and this motion went to authorize the
absence of a fourth. The right hon. gent.
concluded by saying, that where the private
interests of the' individual and those of the
public were put in competition, his own
private. feelings would be too ready to lead
him to give a preference to the individual
interest; but, at the same time, he could not
- onceal his anxiety, that the house should
iot'be forward to establish precedents that
were too likely to be followed, to the injury
of the public service. With regard to pre-
cedents, he had taken much pains to search
-o'rthem; and he could find no precedent,
whie'e a member for private business was
indulged, but in 'a temporary absence; in
Vthich case, the committee' was adjourned,
til'it could have the benefit of his attendance.
Painful' as it would be to him; he should,.
therefore, vote against the motion.
'Mr. IV. Dzundas rose, an'd requested that
the'oiouse would pause, before it should de-
tperiine in a case of such importance, where
they had nothing before them, but the gene-
'ral assertion of an individual, to direct their
judgment. Suppose, he said, 1 wish to go
to Scotland ? If you establish a precedent of
this kind, will it not be natural for me to
plead business, and to direct your attention
to'this very precedent, which you are about
to create ?
Mr. Bragge observed, that it must be in
the recollection of the house, that there was
po.precedent in England that could apply to
ihis motion, and as committees for the trial
(f Irish elections were now in this country,
no arguments could be adduced on the pre-
sent question, but those of expediency only.
It therefore remained with the house to
establish or not, as they should think proper,
a precedent on the present occasion.
The Speaker, before he put the question,
stated to the house, the number of prece-
dents of absence, granted to members, from
committees, to be eight; four of which,
were for total absence, in consequence of the
death 6f near relations. Of the other four,
two were for private business, and but for
two'days; and the committees were in both
cases adjourned, till the expiration of the
iwo days. The remaining two were, first,
the case of the Okehampton petition; Mr.
F elham, one of the'members of the commiit-
tee for trying whiih, was also water-bailiff
to the oouI t of sewers, and' had obtained a
toal' release from attendance on the com-
mittee, in consequence'of his presence being
essential to the discharge of his other duties,


The second, was the case of Shaftesbury, in
which case, SirfRichard Worsley, who was
also.mayor and returning officer of- another
place, obtained a release from attendance on
ihe committee, in consideration of the calls
of duty in his corporation. The question
being put by the Speaker, there was a call
to divide the house, when there appeared for,
the motion 45, and against it 54. The mo-
tion, of course, was tiegatived by a majority
of 9.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, December 1.
Their lordships met at the usual hour.
Certain accounts, relative to the bounties
granted by Queen Anne, were laid on the
table. 'The house then went into a com-
mittee of privileges. Strangers were or-
dered to withdraw, and soon after an ad-
journment took place.


HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, December 1.
[MNUTEas.]- -Mr. Smith informed the
house, that his MV!ajesty had been waited
upon with the address of this house, and had
ordered the proper officers to prepare and
lay before the house, the several estimates
accordingly.-Sir P, Stephens presented esti-
mates of the expense of maintaining pri-
soners of war, sick and in health; also, an
estimate of the expense of transport service,
for the year 1804. These estimates were
order d to. lie on the table; and Sir P. Ste-
phensi gave notice, that he should move them.
in the committee of supply to morrow.-
Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the
committee of supply. The respluaions were
agreed to, nerm. con.- Lord Castlereagh
brought in his bill, for regulating the interest
on East-India bonds. The bill was read a
first time, and 'ordered to be read a second
time on Monday, and to be priated.- Mr.
Vansittart brought in the bill for'continuing
the restriction, on payments in specie by
the Bank of England. Read'a first time,
and ordered to be read a second time to-
morrow.-Mr. Hobhouse brought up the
report of the committee of Expiring Laws.
The resolutions were for the contamination
of the act 39 Geo. III. for prohibiting the
exportation, and encouraging the importa-
tion of corn; the act for regulating the trade
with Malta; the act of last session, relating
to the drawback on the exportation of sugar ;-
and the act relating to the exportation of.
sugar to Ireland, The resolutions were post-'






PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 1.-Curates Relit Bill.


poned, and referred, to a committee of the
whole house to sit to-morrow.-The house
went into a committee on Mr. Jarvis's bill,
for preventing the desertion and collusive
arrests of seamen, Several verbal amend-
ments were made, the blanks were filled up,
and the report ordered to be received.'to-
mnorrow.-Mr. Vansittart moved, that to.
morrow the house should resolve itself into
a committee, to consider of ways and means,
for. raising the supply granted to his Ma-
jesty.-The -Chancellor of the. Exchequer
gave notice, that to-morrow, in the commit-
tee of ways and means, he shou-ld move, that
leave be given to bring in a bill to empower
his majesty to raise five millions, by loan, on
exchequer bills, for the service of the year
1804.-The Chancellor of the Exchequer-
gave notice, that to-morrow, in the com-
. mittee of ways and means, he should Amove
the land and malt taxes, for the year 1804.-
The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved,
that there be laid before the house an ac-
count of the outstanding exchequer bills, on
the 1st December, 1802, and 1st December,
1803, respectively.
[STIPENDIARY CURATES BILL.] Sir
Villiam Scott rose to move for leave to bring
in a bill to encourage the residence of sti-
pendiary curates. It would, he said, be in
the recollection of gentlemen, that a bill had
been brought forward on this subject last
year, which had passed that house, but was
rejected in another place, on account of a
money provision, which had been annexed
to it, of such a nature as to be conceived in-
consistent with the f. -rs of th:t place. He
had the satisfaction to state, that it was not
now necessary to annex to the bill any such.
provision, as intimation had been given, that
it was intended to bring forward a separate
measure, for the purpose of providing, in a
less objectionable way, for those of that de-
serving class of men, the stipendiary curates,
Wvho should be displaced, by the operation of
the bill for enforcing the residence of the
clergy. The bill, which he should propose,
would, therefore, be the same with that
Which the house had passed in the last ses-
sion, with the addition ofa clause, which
would facilitate its operation, and the omis-
sion of the clause, in consequence of which,
the former bill had been rejected in the
upper house. If leave should be given to
bring in the bill, his intention was, that it
should be read a first and second time, as
soon' as the forms would admit, and then
printed ahd left some time for consideration.
-Leave being giv'i., the bill was accord-
ingly brought in, and read a fist timb, and


ordered to be read a second time to-maprow.,
It is then to be committed,, in order to ill
up the blanks pro forma, when it is to be
printed; and after a sufficient interval for
consideration, to be recommitted for discus-
sion.
[CURAT.ES RELIEr BILL.]-The Chancel-
7or of the Exchequer (who was not in the
house when Sir William Scott made the
above motion) said, he understood that a-
motion had just been made, and leave given,
to bring in a bill similar to that of-last .ses-
sion, to encourage the residence of stipen-
diary curates. It would be in the recollec-
tion of gentlemen, that in the progress of
the former bill, a motion had been made, for
the house to go into a committee, to consi- '
der of the propriety of making compensation'
to such curates as should be deprived of their
cores by the bill for enforcing the residence
of the clergy. The provision, which the
committee thought it adviseable to make,
had been incorporated with the bill, and the
bill had been rejected in the other house as
informal. It was' now designed, to bring-
forward a plan, for the relief of these de-
serving men, in a separate bill. He should
therefore move, that the house should to-
morrow, resolve itself into a committee of
the whole house, to consider of the expe-
diency of affording a temporary relief to such
curates as have been or shall be displaced, in
consequence of the act of last session, for
enforcing the residence of the clergy." He
was authorised to state, that the proposition
had the consent of his Majesty.
[FORTIrIcATION OF Lv vEnooL.]--=Mr.
Dent moved for leave to bring up a petition
from the merchants of Liverpool, praying
for leave, to bring in a bill, to enable them
to fortify their harbour and town at their
own expense.-The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer said, the petition was recommended
by his Majesty, so far as the crown was con-
cerned.-The petition was accordingly,
brought up and read. It stated, that the
commander in chief, arid other general of-
ficers of that district, had represented the.
harbour and town of Liverpool to be, in a
very inadequate state of defence. The mayor,
bailiffs, and other officers of the corporation,
having, on their part, offered to raise a great
portion of the necessary fortifications at their
own expense, the merchants wished to con-
tribute to carry the plan into full effect, so
that floating batteries may be stationed across
the mouth of the harbour, and by erecting
batteries on such points of the coast as were
thought to require fortification. For this
pur0ose v1untary donations bad been s'tb-


1577],






PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 1,.--Forfiftation.of Liverpool.


scribed, but the amount of them being in-
sufficient, it was wished to raise the remain-
d,er .of the necessary sum by loan, as a secu-
rity for which the merchants were willing
to pledge their ships, and other property.
It was to enable them to rise this loan, that
the aid of Parliament was required.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that
though some of the gentlemen near him had
communicated to him the -substance of the
petition, he was not acquainted with the form
of it, till he had heard it read. If he had
been aware of the words, in which it was
'expressed, he would not have exercised in
.its favour, the discretion which his Majesty
bad vested in him, to give the approbation
of the croW\n where he should think it called
for. What were the avowed designs of the
enemy, referred to in the petition ; and what
the zeal and spirit of the merchants of Li-
verpool to resist these designs, which he had
no doubt were as great as those of any other
class of his majesty's subjects, were matters,
into the discussion ot which, he was not
now disposed to enter. There were, how-
ever, words in the petition, which, if the
house should order a bill according to the
petition, would render that bill objectionable.
The petition alluded to works to be raised
for the defence of the harbour and town of
Liverpool; :the house would not countenance
the raising of any works, without the express
order of the King. He gave every credit to
the zeal and public spirit, from which the
petition originated. This remark, he was
stalled upon to make, by his not being aware
of the particulars of the petition when he
gave l4is Majesty's consent; a defect which
the house itself would correct, and which it
-would allow him to supply. He recollected
an instance of a similar petition in 1798.
He had not then objected, for he could not
make any objection ; but his sentiments were
such as he now stated, and .he was glad to
find thry had the approbation of the chair.
[The Speaker appeared by signs to coincide
in the sentiment of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer.] It would be for the house to
decide, whether it would sanction the pre-
cedent- then established.
Mr. Creevy thought it never had been con-
ceived by the inhabitants of Liverpool, that
their town and harbour were particularly in
want of fortifications. During the last war,
and all former-wars, they looked upon them-
selves as perfectly secure; but now the com-
mander in chief of their district (Prince
William of Gloucester) found out that Li-
verpool was a very vulnerable place, and very
much in danger ,of attack. If, contrary to
his p.wn judgment and that of many others,


such fortifications were necessary, let them
be defrayed, as they ought to be, by the pub-
lic; let them not be imposed as a partial
and heavy burthen on Liverpool itself, but
let them be erected, at the general expense
of the nation. It was, besides, an error to
conceive that the expense would fall on the.
majority of the inhabitants, if the money
were to be raised in the manner proposed by
the petition: it would fall on a very small
part of these inhabitants.
Mr. Dent moved, that the petition be re-
ferred to a committee, to consider the matter
thereof, and to report the same as it,should
appear to them to the house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer begged
to be understood, pot to pledge himself to
the measure, by giving his Majesty's consent,
so far as his Majesty was concerned. He
had given it thus qualified, in order not to
debar the petition from coming before the
house.,
Mr. Dent said, the measure proposed in
the petition, had certainly the sanction of the
majority of the most respectable merchants
of Liverpool. The town had already raised
a considerable sum by subscription. Twenty
thousand pounds had been raised, but that
was not sufficient it was to supply the de-
ficiency, that the measure stated in the pe-
tition was resorted to. If assistance was re-
cessary, he was sure, though he had no
pledge, that it would be afforded. It would
have been highly indecent in the town, when
informed by so high an authority as its'com-
mander in chief, and the general officers un-
der him, not to slew the greatest alacrity to
come forward in the most liberal manner.-
The petition was referred to a committee.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, December 2d.
[MINUTES.]-On the motion of the Duke
of Norfolk, the Zouch peerage was ordered
to be taken into further consideration on the
first Tuesday in February.-On the motion
of Lord Walsingham, the Rous peeragewas
ordered to be taken into consideration on the
third Tuesday in the same month.
[PAROCHIAL CLERGY.] -The Duke of
Norfolk gave notice, that it was his intention
to submit to the consideration of the house,
a bill for preventing the arrest of parochial
clergymen, while actually engaged in the.
duties of their respective cures: a bill, for
their relief, had been introduced in that
house last session, but had' not been enter-
tained, on the idea that it was to be esteemed-
a money bill.: Such' a bill, however, was
now pefiding in the other house, and he'


(1580






tS~~ij PARL. DEBATES, Da& 2.-Aflmndies.c.t


should avail himself of the opportunity,.when
that bill came to be considered by their lord-
ships, to introduce one to the effect he had
mentioned. Adjourned till Monday.


HOUSE OF COMMONS'.
Friday, December 2.
[MINUTES ]-Mr. Wharton, from the
Bank of England, presented at the bar, an
account of the number and, amount of bank
notes in circulation on the 1st of June, the
1st of August, the 1st of October, and the
25th of November, 1 P03, distinguishing
those under 5." Ordered to lie on the
table, and to.be-printed.-On the motion of
Sir W. Scott, the stipendiary curates bill
was read a second time ; committed pro for-
ma, the blanks filled up, the report received,
and the bill as amended, ordered to be taken
into further consideration on Wednesday next.
-Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the
seamen's desertion bill, which was agreed to,
and the bill ordered to be read a third time
on Monday next.-On the motion of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, the bank re-
striction bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed to-morrow.-The
house then resolved itself into a committee
of ways and means; in which, the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer moved the following
resolutions; that the duty on malt, mum,
cyder, and perry, imposed by the 43d of his
present Majesty, which was to expire on the
24th of June,'1804, be further continued till
the 24thof June, 1805,; that the 4s. in the
pound to be raised on all pensions, offices,
&c. till the 25th of March, 1804, do con-
tinue to be raised on the same till the 25th
of March, 1805; that the duties on sugar,
tobacco, snuff, &c. imposed by the different
acts of Parliament, do continue to be further
raised upon the same till the 25th of March,
1805. These resolutions were severally put
and agreed to. -The Secretary at War pre-
sented an estimate of the expence of guards
and garrisons, which was ordered to lie on
the table. He then gave notice, that, on
Friday next, he should submit the army esti-
mates to the consideration of the house.-
Sir Philip Stephens moved the order of the
day, for the house to resolve itself into a
committee of the whole house, to consider
further of a supply to be granted to his Ma-
jesty; which being read, he moved, That
the several accounts, presented, of the ordina-
ries and extraordinaries of the navy, be re-
.ferred to the said committee. Ordered.-
The house having fo.Ued itself-Wito a cornm-


mittee of the whole house, Sir Philip moved;
that a sum, not exceeding 2,670,0001. 9s. 9d.
be granted to his Majesty for the ordinaries of
the navy, including the half-pay of navy
and marine officers, fpr 1804. Granted; tlat
948,5201. be granted for building, re-build-
ing, and repairing ships of war in his Ma-
jesty's dock-yards, over and above the ordi.-
nary wear and tear, for the -year 1804.
Granted.-The chairman was ordered to re-
port progress, and to ak leave to sit again.--
Report ordered to be received to-morrow
morning.-Sir Philip Stephens gave hotice,
that he should, on Monday,move to refer the
estimates of the probable expense of. trans-
ports, prisoners of war, &c. to a committee'
of the whole house.-Mr. Vapsittart moved
the orders of the day, on the report of the
committee on expiring laws, which being
read, he moved the continuance of all the
last regulations respecting corn, permitting.
the importation, and prohibiting the expor-
tation of it; renewing also the regulations
respecting the drawback on the exportation
of sugars, &c. and renewing also the regula-
tions respecting various articles that have
been permitted to be imported without pay-
ment of duty; renewing likewise all the last
regulations respecting the trade, &c. of Malta
till after peace, &c. which were all agreed
to.-Mr. Vansittart moved for leave to bring
in a bill to indemnify such persons in Great-
Britain as have omitted to qualify themselves
fpr offices and employment, and justices of
the peace who have omitted to deliver in
their qualifications, officers of boroughs,
&c. as required by law, &c. Granted.'---.,
Mr. Vansittart then moved, That there
be laid before the house, an estimate of the
charges of barracks in Great-Britain and
Ireland, from the 25th of December. 1803,
to the 25th of December, 1804. Ordered.
-He concluded by moving an address to 'his
Majesty, praying that he would b6 graciously
pleased to give directions for that purpose.
Agreed to.-Mr. Corry gave notice that he
would to-morrow, move for leave to bring
in a bill for continuing the acts relative to
.the importation of provisions to Ireland, and,
also for continuing the sugar act.-The right
hon. gent. then observed, that as the act
which passed last session, respecting the'is-
sue of what is called in Ireland silver-notes,
would expire on the 1st of January, 1804,
and as he thought it necessary to wait for
information, from gentlemen of that country,
respecting the state of that species of circu-
lating credit, he should, on Monday, move
for leave to bring in a bill to suspend, for a
limited time, that ptohibitory act, in order


t3825S


15811 '






PARL J DEBATES, DEC. '*Cutrates Relieft/Bill.


to give Parliament an oppbrtdnity to receive
the desired information.
[CURATES RELIEF BILL.]-The Chan-
cellor of tbe Exchequer moved the order of
the day, that the house do now resolve itself
into a committee, to consider of the most ef-
fectual and expedient 'mode of affording a
tempoirary relief to curates, who might be
deprived of their cures, by the operation of
the clergy residence act, passed-last session.
Sir Robert Buxton expressed his opinion,
that this was a business which deserved the
most serious attention of the house. No-
'body, said the honourable barpnet, can feel
more than I do, the inconveniencies to which
that valuable body of men, the stipendiary
btitates, may for a time be subjected, if no
relief can be granted them by the legislature.
But whilst I look'on this side of the ques-
tion, and admit the expediency of affording
relief to these men, who must otherwise la-
bour under considerable difficulties, I ought
not to, neglect to glance a little at the other
side, and observe the circumstances that
form more than a counter-balance to the
necessities of the curates, and that -is the
necessities of the country. In the present
situation of the country, so burthened with
taxes, to support the arduous contest in
which we are engaged, nothing can excuse a
compliance with an application of this sort,
but the most absolute necessity. In the pre-
sent instance, I am by no means satisfied,
that such a necessity does exist. The cler',,
who before kept curates, but who are now
compelled to reside on their, livings, may
very well spare a maintenance for those who
were in the habit of performing the duty of
their functions, until another provision shall
occur. The clergy are certainly able to af-
ford this expense, as it is notorious, that the
valhe of their livings have of late received
a very aniple increase. These few observa-
tions, I have thought it my duty to throw
-out at present-; at the same time pledging
myself, that whenever any subject of expen-
diture, that is not indi-spensably necessary,
does come before the house in the present
circumstances of the country, I shall uni-
formlyand strenuously object to it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed, that
nothing,could be more commendable than
the. cautious jealousy expressed by the hon.
baronet, respecting thq application of the
public money. He was anxious, however,
that the house should rightly understand their
object of the present motion. It was merely
meant to-do away an informality which has
crept into a similar bill, brought forward last
session, even after tlhe commencement of


hostilities, 'and which passed through all its
stages in that house, without having met
with one dissentidnt. voice. When the bill
for enforcing the residence of the clergy,
was under consideration last session, it was
generally acknowledged, that its operation
must press hard upon a certain description
of curates, who might be reduced, both
themselves and their families, to preat dis-
tress, by the passing of that bill. It was not
then, neither is it now; intended, to make
full and general compensation to all of that
description, who may be deprived of their
cures; but merely to rescue from the most
ruinous indigence, many meritorious curates,
who may be more particularly injured by
the non-residence bill. He was as sensible
as any gentleman could be, of the propriety
of observing a system of rigid economy; but
he was as equally satisfied, that the house
would not wish that any system of that na-
ture should stand in the way of'the geneto-
sity, he had almost said the justice, which
certain individuals, under certain circum-
stances, might have to expect at their hands.
The house would, no doubt, the more incline
to that opinion, when they understood that
the sum toa be proposed, for answering this
object, was not to exceed 8,0001. and that
that sum, small as it was, would be under
the restrictions imposed by a bill which had
already received the unanimous approbatiosi
of the house. He had only to repeat, that
the object of the bill went merely, to procure
a temporary relief for indigent curates, and
that the amount of that relief was not to ex-
ceed 8,0001.-The house having agreed to
the motion, the right hon. gent. moved,
" that a sum not exceeding 8,0001. be grant-
ed for the relief of such curates as should
be deprived of their cures in consequence of
the bill compelling the- residence of the in-
cumbents." This motion was agreed to, and
the resolution immediately reported.
[EXCIEQUER BILLS.] -The Chadncelor
of tbe Exchequer, in a committee of ways and
means, drew the attention of the committee
to the notice which he had given yesterday,
of his intention to move this day, for leave to'
issue excheqner'bills to the amount of five
million. He stated, that he had a satisfac-
tion in mentioning, what, he had no dbubt
the committee would feel a pleasure in hear-,
ing, that this motion, if agreed to, was the
only application that would be made, for any
supply, until a very advanced period of the
session. He had also to observe with plea-
sure, that all the outstanding bills of 1802
were now paid off; and that those only were
in cireuAltion, that were issued on the credit


[1584


1583]






1585] PARL. DEBATES, DI)c. 2.-Irisk Habeas Corpus SuspensionAct.


of the' services of 1803, 4,500,0001. of
ivhich remained to be paid off. If the
connmittee acceded to the present motion,
there would also be an opportunity for the
issue of new exchequer bills, for which
there was rnow a considerable demand. So
much would consequently be taken from
the supply of the yea' ; but the whole of
what he now moved for would be ne-
cessary for the public service, till the ad-
vanced period of the session, when -the
whole of the supply was voted. If parti-
cular information was called for on any of
these points, he should be ready to give
every explanation in his power. He con-
cluded by moving, that the sum of five
millions be raised by loan on exchequer
bills, for the. service of the year 1804."
This motion being agreed to, the house re-
sumed, and the report was ordered to be
received to-monrrow.
[SusPENSION OF HABEAS CORPUS ACT
IN IRELAND.]-Mr. Secretary Yorke. I rise,
Sir,. in consequence of a notice which I
gave a few days ago,. for leave to bring in
two bills to continue two acts; the one for
suspending the Habeas Corpus Act, and
the other for the re-enactment of Martial
Law in Ireland. The house may be as-
sured, that"it is with the sincerest-regret
for the circumstances which render this
measure necessary, that I now come for-
ward to perform this painful dity. I am
sorry to be obliged to propose any measure
that may trench upon the liberties of the
subject, or an.) of those blessings which
this country justly values at so high a rate.
But, Sir, it is the misfortune of the times
in which we are destined to live, that we
- are, not permitted to enjoy our lives, our
liberties, or our possessions, without being
daily called upon to sacrifice some part of
our -privileges in order to preserve the re-
nmainder, to sacrifice the best blood-of the
country in support ofthe contestin whichwe
are engaged, and to-abridge our liberties in
order.to preserve the existence of liberty
itself. But this is no more than our ances-
tors often thought proper to do. There
exists, however, this lamentable difference,
that the periods during which it was neces-
sary to resort to measures of this sort, were
extremely short with them; but we can
never, rest in complete security, nor think
either our privileges or our lives in safety,
while France, "after spreading devastation
and death over her tributaries on the con-
tinent, looks with malignant envy on this
happy spot, and longs to extend her fiend-
like- .fangs to crush ut also, and lever us
VOL. IV.


with the, lowest of her slaves. It will be
needless for me to state more particularly
than I have done, the object of these bills.
It will be recollected that they passed to-
wards theconclusion of last session, in conse
quence of a message from his Majesty, stat-"
ing the insurrection that had broken out in
the city of Dublin, and the atrocious circum-
stances with'which it was attended. The'
house very properly passed those acts with-
out any hesitation ; when passed, they- gave
confidence to the loyal inhabitants of Ire-
land, and enabled.them tQ suppress the re-
belion with celerity. The particular cir-
cumstances which gave rise to and accom-
panied that most unhappy transaction, has
now been developed by the trials of seve-
ral of the leaders and their adherents, be-
fore the ordinary courts of judicature, and'
according to the .ordinary forms of law.
The proceedings on these occasions have
been published, and to them I refer the
house for information whereon-to found-
their judgment, as to the nature and extent
of the conspiracy, as well as to the'expe-
diency of the present motion. Exclusive
of the information contained in these trials,
his Majesty's government are in possession
of other facts, which the house must feel
it would be highly improper to'attempt to
detail at the present moment. I may, how-
ever, be permitted to- state, that notwith-
standing the declaration of one of them
(Emmett), I have every reason to believe,
that the leaders of that insurrection were
connected with persons residing in France,
and those persons, traitors, immediately
connected with the French government, if
the conspirators were not immediately con-
nected with-it themselves. It is also clear,.
that some of the traitors who were in
France, came over to Ireland for the pur-
pose of exciting rebellion, and that they
calculated upon the renewal ot hostilities
between this country and France, and
chose that moment for exciting rebellion,
as the most favourable crisis for putting in
execution their nefarious designs. It is,
indeed, clear, from all that has come to
the knowledge of government, that the
great object of the French government
was to foster and increase treason and re- /
billion in Ireland, with a hope of distract-
ing and dividing the .Brish empire, .and
filially leading to the.'-subversion of the
country : but the perfidy of the enemy was
defeated, and his hope was vain. :With
respect to the events of tihe' 3d of Julyi
the details are before the public, and it is
not necessary to enlarge upon theba. The
P P


[t586






1581] PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 2.-Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Act.


horrid tale is known ; and, perhaps, in all
the history of violence, madness, and folly
which the world ever presented ; 'there
never existed treason more foul,-' an in-
surrection moreunprovoked, leaders-more
contemptible, assassination more atrocious,
or crimes more horrible.-What followed is
extremely well known : most of the leaders
have been brought to justice before the
ordinary tribunals, which these miscreants
wished to put an end to, and exterminate;
as evidently appears by their horrible as-
sassination of one of the brightest ornaments
ofthose tribunals. I hope my right Lon. friend
(theChancellor of the Exchequer) will short-
ly have it in command from his Majesty, to
lay the situation of the family of the much re-
spected, and much lamented nobleman to
whom I have alluded (Kilwarden), before
the house.-Sir, it becomes my duty to pro-
pose the continuance of the acts in ques-
tion, and I hope that, as far as concerns
the manner in which these acts have been
made use of, there will be no objection.
All the criminals have, notwithstanding
the powers vested in the Irish government,
been tried in the ordinary form, except in
one solitary instance, where a person who
endeavoured to seduce a soldier from his
allegiance, was justly and properly tried
by martial law. Of the necessity for these
measures no man can entertain a doubt,
who has taken any trouble to make himself
acquainted with the state of Ireland, or
who is at all aware of the views of the
French government, with whom it has
been a long favoured plan to attack the
empire on the side of. Ireland. The ene-
my is aware that it is only by dividing and
diverting the strength of this country, that
she can insure success; for united, the
British empire single handed, is more than
a match for all France. Provided parlia-
ment and government be on their guard,
there is little reason to fear either foreign
or domestic enemies. As to the latter,'
indeed, I am persuaded there are few,
very few now to be found in this country.
I regret that there are more in Ireland, al-
though their numbers are greatly dimi-
nished. But let their numbers be great or
small, they must be met with firmness and
resolution. They must be made sensible
that this house will never compromise with
traitors, nor suffer them to clothe them-
selves with the whole armour of the law,
whilst they are secretly attacking the
government, and the senate, and all loyal
subjects, with the concealed weapons of
ss assination.-I therefore move, Sir, that


leave be given to bring in a bill to continue,
for a time to be limited, the suspension, of
the Habeas Corpus act in Ireland."
The Hon. C. Hely Hutcbinson. -With
most of the sentiments expressed by the
right hon. gent. who has just sat down, I
ri-e to declare my perfect concurrence; and
I am happy to feel justified in assuring the
house, that the conduct of the government
of Ireland since the insurrection, meets
with my entire approbation. Their, firm-
ness and humanity ).their activity and at-
tention, entitles them to the utmost praise.
They have in a great measure pursued that
line of policy, which the wise and just
would always recommend to be observed to--
wards Ireland. Their temper and lenityy
have tended to cultivate the good opinion
of the people; which was precisely the
course, which, at the close of the last session
of parliament, I had entreated should be
adopted ; an exhortation by the bye, which
seemed to have been much misconceived;
and for offering which, I became the sub-
ject of severe and unmerited censures, from
particular quarters: several paragraphs (I
should be ashamed to suppose from autho-
rity) were inserted in some of the Dublin
papers, and also in those of this city, tend-
ing to decry the individual who had at-
tempted to call the attention of parliament
to the affairs of Ireland. I was quite un-
conscious, on that occasion, of having
given any provocation to the friends of the
noble earl, at the head of the government
of that country. Such was not my object;
as it was, and is, matter of indifference to
me, by whom the offices of state are filled,
provided government be well administered:
in the mode of that administration I am, so
far as relates to Ireland, particularly inte-
rested. Connected to her by all the sacred
ties which can bind an individual to his
country, strengthened by a respect for the
talents, a regard for the virtues, and a
warm sympathy in the wishes of its inha-
bitants: eager as I feel for their welfare,
rejoicing in their prosperity, and participat-
ing in their afflictions, I cannot but sin-
cerely lament the necessity which ministers
feel themselves under, for again resorting
to parliament, for the measures now pro-
posed. But, that under the present cir-
cumstances of that unhappy country, it is
advisable thus to strengthen the hands of the
executive, I cannot entertain a doubt: and
I feel the less reluctance.in again entrusting
theIrish government with these, extraordinary
powers, when I reflect upon the modera-
tion and lenity with which they have hi-


[1588






1589] PARL. DEBATES, DEc. 2.-Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Act.


therto been exerted : and' having on a for-
mer occasion expressed my regret, that the
conciliating conduct, and uniform attentions
of Lord Hardwicke and his family to the
people of Ireland, had not been met by that
co-operation of legislative exertion, which
I for one had anxiously recommended, I
cannot but lament, that this my avowed
opinion, should have been either totally
suppressed, or perverted.-I trust, I shall
not, in the few observations I am about to
make, subject myself to the imputation of
wishing 'improperly to obtrude the discussion
of thestate of Ireland. Of misrepresentation
alone do I feel the least apprehension : on
a very late occasion, I had an opportunity
of adverting to the situation of that country,
I mean when the motion was under consi-
deration for an address to his Majesty, but
1 abstained from any comment upon the
speech from the throne, not wishing to dis-
turb the unanimity, or damp the zeal which
prevailed in the house; and because I felt,
that at such a period, when attacked by the
most inveterate enemy, and the most ambi-
tious government, this country ever had to
encounter,, no man of loyalty, or of under-
standing, should hesitate to declare his re-
solution, unburthened by conditions and un-
alloyed by expressions of discontent, to
support his Majesty in'the prosecution of a
war, in which, in my humble judgment,
his empire is necessarily engaged. I was
sincerely glad to heat from my Sovereign on
the day to which I have alluded, that rebel-
lion had been put down in Ireland, and
that the public tranquillity had suffered no
'farther interruption; and I sincerely joined
in, the hope, that such of his deluded
subjects as had swerved from their allegi-
ance, had been convinced of their error,
and that upon a comparison of the advan-
tages they derive under a free constitution,
with the situation of those countries that
have fallen under the yoke of the govern-
rnent of France, they will not hesitate to
co-operate with his Majesty, in zealously
resisting every attack which may be made
upon the security and independence of the
United kingd6m," Of this 1" fair return to
loyalty," I could entertain little doubt, were
they fully acquainted with the miseries ac-
cumulated, on the unfortunate nations who
have been forced to wear the galling chains of
the republican despot. But I may be suf-
fered, I trust, to hope, that by that passage'
in his Majesty's speech, ministers do not
meaa to hold out an opinion, that because
the situation of Ireland may be preferable to
that of those, countries,pillaged and enslaved
by France, that, therefore, it does not require


any improvement. What, I would ask, can:
the minister mean by this comparison ?--Is
it that because Ireland is less oppressed, less.
persecuted, that, therefore, its inhabitants
should be compleatly reconciled to the con--
duct of the British' government, and tho-
roughly satisfied with their condition ? Is it
possible that it can be seriously designed,
from a consideration of the difference in de-
grees of human misery, to decline entering
into the investigation of the affairs of Ire--
land ? If such be the purport of this insinu--,
ation, it cannot be too strongly condemned.
Such a mode of reasoning could only be
justified on the preposterous supposition, Jhat
nations should be happy and contented. as
long as they see others more wretched than
themselves and it is something new in the
history of this country, to derive an argu-
ment against any project for ameliorating
the condition of its people, from a compa-
rison with the state of other countries, and
particularly with such as are subjected to ar-
bitrary government. Would the Irish itn 1782
when demanding in the bold tone of free-
dom, and the irresistible language of rea-
son, the establishment of their rights, have
tamely listened to any objection .to their
claims drawn ftio a reference to the com-
parative depression and poverty of their
situation but a few years before ?-Would
the haughty barons of England, who in
the 13th century so nobly contended for
that charter which forms the basis of Bri-,
tish liberty, have consented to have with-
drawn their pretensions, and abandoned
their claims, had they been reminded, that
their situation was still preferable to that'of
the' barons of France, and of the other
neighboring states ? No; they wo': ld
have indignantly spurned at those, who
should have presumed to influence them
by such a consideration, and have redoubled
their energies for the attainment of their
objects. But, to'reter to a more modern,
and a still more glorious epoch of your
history, would those illustrious charac-
ters of 1688. who accomplished the ever
memorable revolution of that day, which.
at length clearly ascertained the rights, and
irrevocably established the independence and
happiness of this realm, would, I ask. an
artifice so shallow, a comparison so insult,
ing, have induced them to have been faise
to their country,,to themselves, andtoy.u ?
If the comparison to which I have alluded,
be urged for the purpose of communicating
to the people of Ireland, that they ha-e nio
change in their condition to expect, I can-
not refrain from declaring that I fear it will
be productive of the worst consequences,
P p2


[159.0






15911 PARL. DEBATES, DEe. 2.--Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Act.


'and,shoul4 be'inclined to. attribute it to the
extreme o; folly or of wickedness.-I do
tell tne ri-ht hop. gent. on the treasury
bench, hiat he cannot confidently reckon on
the warm and effectual support of the em-
pire in this great struggle, unless he be just to
Sthe people.-It was with po small degree of'
regret, I understood him to have declared,
that he was not aware of the probability
<( under ihe present circumstances of any
' discussion upon the situation of Ireland
f' being attended with any other than the
fl.most dangerous consequences." If it be
meant by this observation, that the consider-
ation of .these subjects should be postponed
fill after the conclusion of the war, I assert,
that such an idea is an insult to the magna-
nimity and good sense, of parliament.-
-What shall it be said that at a time, when
all the strength which the empire is capable
of affording may be necessary, that one im-
portant part, known to be diseased, shall
be left without care or remedy, and suffer-
ed to go on decaying until, become rotten,
it be irrecoverably lost ? Good God at a
crisis the most awful, in a contest the most
'tremendous in which this country ever was
engaged, likely to be terminated only by the
downfall of one of the contending powers,
a contest for which we require all the
strength and power which unanimity only
can afford, at such a moment, to hesitate
in adopting a system of conciliation is
monstrous ! !- Will it be objected that a
time of war is unseasonable for the discus-
sion of this important subject : upon what
ground?--That there are grievances, and
-heavy ones too, under which the greater
part of the Irish people labour, is not, can-
not be disputed: this being admitted, it is
-unjust to procrastinate the redress of them
till the issue of the present contest ; for
aught we know, to an indefinite period,
and that too, without any pledge or hope
that even after the termination of the war,
Athe- government would be disposed to make
concessions or afford relief. -As to the po-
licy.qf neglecting the state of Ireland during
the war, I shall say that it becomes highly
criminal, when the right hon. secretary has
.' moment declared that the British Em-
pire, provided it were united, might single-
band.i, defy the threats with which we are
pow ins~ilted, an.i that so convinced of this
.Was tfh .enemy, that he was labouring inr
cessantly A'-) divide us, and to create a party
in'fthe empi e.- Could any stronger argu-
ment than .i's be advanced by me, or those
Who th:h~ik 'ji r me on the necessity of re-
Pressing the gri vances of the Irish people
0oon as poss le I am of the samr


opinion with the right hon. gent., that Buo-
napart6 and his agents are sowing discord,
and fomenting the passions of that people
in order to distract, divide, and weaken our
forces, as well as to embarrass his Majesty's
councils.-Taking this for granted, 'what
shadow of objection can be made against
the introduction and discussion of a measure,
the object abd result of which isto detach
from the enemy; those on whose assistance
he may rely. No motive, no reasonable
cause of discontent ought to be left, on which
he may attempt to act.-Here again I must
declare, that no system of government how-
ever defective, no complaint however found-
ed, can justify the subject at this hour of
general danger, when his country, his reli-
gion, his laws, and liberties are attacked, in
refusing his cordial support to repel the
common enemy. -- But, with respect
to this cant about the time and circum-
stances proper for a full enquiry into the
state of Ireland, I should be glad to know
when such circumstances are likely to arise
in the estimation of ministers, for, from
their conduct heretofore, it seems impossible
to calculate ; they have been ministers
during peace, and during war, during re-
bellion and after rebellion has been put
down. They have in fact, been nearly three
years in power, and have gone through
every, variety of change and circumstance,
and yet, to them, the time for considering
the means of improving the condition of
Ireland, has never yet arrived; for by .them,
every season has been deemed improper for-
the redress of its grievances, and of course
under their auspices, the beneficial conse-
ces promised by the advocates of the unionrt
cannot be looked for. On the part of the
Irish I complain, that the minister of that
day urged as a motive for hurrying on that
measure, that the subject of the grievances
of Ireland would be brought where it could
be discussed with temper, liberality, andwis.
dom ; but, no sooner was it brought to this
side of the water, than it was discovered that
it ought not to be brought forward, and for
the very same reason, namely, that it would
agitate the country and produce the most
mischievous consequences.-I beg the house
to understand that the condition of that peo-
pie cannot be ameliorated by one, two, or
three measures, but by a great and oompre-
hensive system, the result of a fair, and full
view of the whole question ; adapted to the
wants, and calculated, to, have a permanent
operation oni the interests of thi -country.
In giving my support to the bills before the
house, I confess my disposition to dp so,,iq
considerably damped, by observing that tha


f1592






1593] -PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 2.-Irish Ila eas Corpus Suspension Act. T1594


nisters manifest no inclination to take such
steps as can alone prevent the recurrence of
that calamity, against which, these bills are
intended to guard, namely by .sifting the
state of Ireland to the bottom, by deliber-
ating upon it, week after week, and session
after session.-I cannot help indulging an
ardent hope, from what passed on the first
day of this session, ihat this delicate and
important question,, will soon be taken
up by that great character (Mr. Fox) the
enlightened champion of the happiness andi
independence of mankind, the benevolence
of whose heart is- as, extensive as the views
and energies of his mind.-I feel deeply
impressed by the liberal indulgence I have
experienced from the house, on whose pa-
tience I have too much trespassed, but when
the affairs of Ireland are agitated, I cannot
induce myself to remain silent.
General Loftus.- I rise, Sir, to give my
most perfect support to the measures intend-
ed to be brought forward by the right hon.
Secretary. They are certainly strong mea-
sures, but they are the only ones that will
give security to the loyal inhabitants of Ire-
land. I have listened with great satisfaction
to the early part of the speech of the hon.
gent. who has just sat down (Col. Hutchin-
son), because I know there is one part of
Ireland in which the opinion of that hon.
gent. will have considerable weight. As to
the question tp which the hon. gent. after-
wards alluded, I think that a time of war is
not the proper period for the discussion of
it, or of any question tending to interfere
with the constitution. I felt it my duty to
say thus much, and I shall sit down
with giving my cordial support to the mo-
tion.
Mr. Hawthorn.-I shall support the mo..
tion, Sir, because, from the observations
which I had an opportunity of making du-
ring the summer, I am convinced that the'
measures proposed are necessary for the
security of the country. It is of consider-,
able consequence to give strength to his
Majesty's government in Ireland, to enable
them to meet and put down the efforts of
treason arid rebellion with vigour and effect.
His Majesty, in his gracious speech from
the throne, has acquainted the house that
the principal actors in the late atrocious in-
surrection have been brought to justice, and
that the deluded multitude are returning to
a sense of their duty; it is, therefore, es-
sential to give such powers to his govern-
ment in that country as will enable them to
maintain the tranquillity so happily restored.
:Besides, the'manner in which the Irish go-
10r .imnt hayp uspd the pxtraordinary pow*-


ers given in the last session, is the beet
security that the same powers will not be
abused in the present instance No gentle-
man, I am sure, will object to the motion
of the right hon. Secretary, if he calls to
mind the manner in which the rebellion was
conducted up to its breaking out, the cir-
cumstances of atrocity with which it was
then carried on, -the manner in which it
was put down, and the effect that the first
burst of it had on the public mind. 'The
conduct of tne Irish government has been
characterized by humanity and mildness. Its
great object has been to pass over the cir-
cumstances of former insurrections, and to
extend the benefit of the ordinary course of
justice to the guilty, and that, too, at a time
when traitors had returned from France, for
the purpose of exciting rebellion in the
country. I am, therefore, of the opinion,
that the proposed measures are necessary'
for maintaining tranquillity. As to the
other topic which has been adverted to ona
the first day of the session, as well 'as oa
the present occasion, I have ever entertain-
ed but one, and only one opinion, and that
is, that something should be done ; but I do
not consider this the proper time for enter-
ing upon the question.
Lord Temple said, that he was not un-
willing to give his consent to the motion,
trusting in the assertion of the right hon.
gent (Mr. Yorke), that the necessity ac-
tually existed for the renewal of an act
which in its preamble stated the spirit of
rebellion and insurrection to be Now actually
raging in Ireland." His hon. friend, (Gen.
Loftus) had said, that a time of war and of
danger was not the moment for entering
into any question affecting.the constitution
of Ireland. He begged leave to recall to the
memory of his hon. friend, and of his Ma-
jesty's ministers, (he was sure it was-un-
necessary to recall it to the memory of his
noble friend, Lord Castlereagh, opposite to
him) that during a period of war and. a
moment of danger very nearly equal to that
which now threatens the country, the House
of Commons had passed a measure of no lesq
importance than the Act of Union.
Lord Archibald Hamilton 'could not help,
feeling some surprise, that any doubt could
exist as to the propriety of the time for
improving the condition of so important a
member of the empire. He meant, how-
.ever, to make only a few observations o0
the subject of the motion. To ascertain
the situation of that part of the empire it
was scarcely necessary to advert to the
situation of its capital, in which every in-
habitant was obliged to placp a list of all






1595] PARL. DEBATES, DEc. 2.-IriZbb Habeas Corpus Suspension Act.


the inmates of his house on his door. In
socl circumstances there could scarcely a
doubt exist of the propriety of making some
efforts to establish the tranquillity of the
country upon some solid and permanent
grounds. It had been said that this was
not the proper time ; but the noble lord
would ask, what would be a better time ?
Were we now going on well, or was the
country well ? This was a crisis when the
exertions of every individual in the empire
were necessary, for, the defence and security
of the empire. He contended it was the
most proper time to resort to measures that
would have the effect of removing every
source of complaint, and of uniting every
arm in the common cause. His lordship
wished to be informed, whether his Ma-
jesty's ministers had any specific plan in
contemplation for that purpose.- There
seemed to be but one sentiment in the house
with respect to the necessity of uniting heart
and hand in the present arduous crisis. He,
therefore, again called .upon his Majesty's
ministers to declare, whether they meant
to bring forward any measure but those
which had hitherto been pursued in that
country. From every thing that had comee
lo his knowledge on that subject, through
persons from local information acquainted
with it, he thought a different system indis-
pensable, and he thought it the duty of his
Majesty's ministers to adopt it. If, however,
they should think proper to abandon the in-
terests of 'that part of the united kingdom,
be was of opinion that, in such a case it
would be perfectly competent to any indi-
vidual in the house to bring the question
before Parliament.
Mr. Burrows desired to be informed whe-
ther the notice, of the right hon. Secretary,
comprehended both the bills intended to be
continued ?
The Speaker informed the hon. member,
that the motion before the house related
only to that for allowing the suspension of
the habeas corpus act, for a time to be
limited, and that when that should be dis-
posed of, the motion on the other would be
put.
Mr. Burrows then rose to state his reason,
for putting .the question. He was willing
to give his ready and perfect concurrence to
the first proposition, but on the other ques-
tion he was disposed to think that some
time ought to be allowed before it should
be carried, into effect. This opinion he en-
tertained not from any concurrence with
the observations that had, been made this
night, or on a former night, tending to
shew, that the present government of Ire.


land was not such as it ought to be, or
that affairs were not well nor properly ad-
ministered in that country ; for he was con-
vinced that no system of government was
ever better calculated to conciliate the af-
fections of the people, than that now pur-
sued in Ireland. But having said this, he
trusted no attempt would be made to bring
forward the other law, at least for 'some
time, and particularly as it had not been.
found necessary in the numerous trials which
had already taken place to-resort to its pro-
visions, or try any of the culprits by martial
law. He hoped, therefore, that the law
should not be renewed while Parliament
should continue sitting, in order that 'the
people might be impressed with the idea
that Parliament, at the same time that it
entertained a fixed determination to ex-
terminate rebellion, was willing to respect
the civil rights of the people. The hon.
gent. concluded by giving his support to the
motion.
Lord Casilereagb rose to offer a few ob-
servations in reply to the last speAker. He
was happy to find that the hon. gent. had
nothing to urge against the character of those
who were to be invested witn the discre-
tionary power granted by the.bill for con-
tinuing the use of martial law in Ireland,
under such circumstances as might be
judged expedient. The hon. gent. had,
however, -contended that such a bill had
never been passed, except where strong
proofs of its necessity were produced. For
his own part he would venture to assert,
and he would defy any gentleman, to dis-
prove his observation, that no measure had.
so materially contributed to prevent the.
mischief originating from the rebellion from
extending itself, as the very measure which
was now made the ground of objection. A
great body of loyalty had existed in Ireland,
during the period that one of the most ex-
tensive and most malignant rebellions raged
in that country which it was ever the fate
of a government to encounter. By the ex-
ertions of this assemblage of loyal subjects,
that rebellion had been suppressed, and the
constitution had been saved from destruc-
tion. He must, however, be permitted to
say, that it was not till the measure in
question had been adopted, that the loyal
part of the community were able to feel
and to employ their strength. It was not
till government was armed with the ex-
traordinary powers with which the measure
vested them, that rebellion was attacked in.
its strong holds and effectually subdued,
These were the effects of the measure in
putting an end to the 'rebellion in 1798,






1597] PARL. DEBATES, DEC, 2.--ris Hfabeas Corpus Suspension At.


and the continuance of the measure at
different periods since that rebellion, had
operated consequences no less beneficial.
The late mad attempt at rebellion, shewed
how much improved the state of the country
was, and he had no difficulty in ascribing
to the operation of the measure which the
hon. member had objected to, that vast aug-
mentation of loyalty which had been ob-
tained during the interval which had taken
place betwixt the rebellion of 1798 and the
late attempt of a handful of deluded and
desperate individuals. The experience of
past consequences was the strongest induce-
ment to renew the measure at the present
moment. The use that had been made of
the measure, was a wise reason for again
resorting to it. Though the government
was vested with extraordinary powers, there
was no reason to be apprehensive that they
would be wantonly employed. The cir-
cumstance of government being vested with
these powers, was the means of enabling
them to resort only to the civil tribunals of
the country. The civil tribunals, notwith-
standing the existence of these powers, had
been appealed to, and the result had been
equally honourable to the laws and to the
individuals to whom the extraordinary pow,-
ers were delegated. This ought, in his
opinion, to operate as an additional induce-
ment to grant extraordinary powers, when it
was ascertained that they were not in any
instance abused, when discretion was em-
ployed, not in'suspending, but in encou-
raging the operation of ordinary tribunals of
justice. The great principle which a wise
legislature wished to act upon, was a prin-
ciple of precaution. Its object was to pre-
vent, and not punish crimes after they were
perpetrated. It might be argued, that there
was at present nothing in the situation of
Ireland to justify a measure which went to
the suspension of the ordinary privileges of
the constitution. The recent attempt at re
hellion had not surely escaped the notice of
gentlemen, and it could not in fairness be
pretended that tranquillity could be so soon
restored as to supersede the necessity of a
measure, the beneficial effects of which
had been so signally experienced. By the
timely interference of the legislature, a great
deal of detailed misery which had formerly
afflicted the loyal part of the community,
had been avoided. For every man who was
acquainted with the situation of Ireland
knew, that such scenes of detailed misery
could not have been prevented unless go-
vernment had been armed with the powers
adequate to the nature of the circumstances
in which the country was placed. On the


principle that it was wise on the first ap-
pearance of the late rebellion to arm go-
vernment with these powers, he would con-
tend that it was equally wise at the present
moment. It would not be denied, that
among those deluded individuals who con-
stituted the remains of the rebellion, every
effort would be made to ,interrupt the
continuance of tranquillity, more particu-
larly when they were, encouraged by the'
expectation of deriving foreign aid from the
enemy holding out threats of immediate in-
vasion. It was therefore to these individu-
als themselves, an act not of severity but of
mercy, to continue the operation of the'
measure in question. It was necessary. by
vesting government with these extraordinary
powers, to convince them that perseverance
in their treasonable designs was hopeless,
before they could be induced to retnrn'to
the habits of peaceable allegiance. When
they found that they could not take a single
step without being 'watched ; when they
saw that their pursuits could be blasted in a
moment; when they perceived that govern-
ment possessed the ,means of instant and
signal punishment, it might be reasonably,
supposed that they would be induced to
abandon pursuits evidently leading to in-
evitable ruin. It was barely an act of justice
to make them take up such a view of their
conduct and situation. The idea of rebel-
lion ought to be banished from their thoughts
by shewing them that it was- a project al-
together impracticable. On every consider-
ation of experience, of policy, of justice,
and of mercy, he was decidedly for re-
enactinZ the bill. He trusted that the boin.
gent. would not be inclined to persist in his
opposition, or contend that at least the re-
enactment of the bill ought to be deferred.
Nothing appeared to him so likely to encou-
rage the loyal part of the community, which
had, such powerful claims to support. No-
thing could so effectually discourage the de-
signs or extinguish the hopes of the dis-,
affected. It was necessary to let the dis-
affected see that the government possessed
the confidence of the legislature, and that
they would receive whatever support the
exigencies of affairs required. To refuse to
invest government with powers which there
was no danger of seeing in any instance
employed with harshness, would elate the
spirits of the deluded victims of rebellion,
while it would paralyse the exertions an4
augment the fears of those firm and patriotic
friends of the constitution whom -it was the
duty of Parliament to support by every'pos-
sible extension of liberal provision. The
noble lord concluded by giving his decided






RARL &EBATES, DEC. 1.-Martial'Law in IrelandZ. 69


support to the motion.-Leave was granted
to bring in the bill. It was accordingly
brought in, read a first tinre, and ordered
to be read a second time on Monday.
[MARTIAL LAW IN IRELAND.]-Mr.
Secretary Yorke next moved, for leave to
f ting in a bill to continue, for a time to
ie limited, the bill of, last session, for the
Suppression of Rebellion in Ireland, -by
enabling government to establish martial'
law. On the motion being put from the
chair,
Mr. Burrows rose to express his reasons
for opposing the motion. He begged it to
be understood that he did not found his
objections to it from any want of confi-
dence in those who were to exercise the
powers to be granted by the bill. On the
contrary, he had the most entire confidence
that these powers would in nq instance be
abused, either by the government of Ire-
land or the government of this country.
,His objection was founded on constitu-
tional grounds. He was convinced that it
must be a principle with every .man who
loved the constitution, never to give his
assent to a bill conferring such extraordi-
nary powers, without the most urgent and
imperious necessity. Acting on this prin-
ciple, he could not, on the ground of con-
fidence in government, consent to violate
the constitution, unless the necessity of
such violation .was clearly established.
When this bill was formerly passed, a re-
bellion actually raged in Ireland, and am-
ple documents to prove its necessity were
laid on the table of the house. At present
no sort of evidence to prove its necessity
was brought forward. Had any parlia-
mentary evidence been adduced? Were
any f~cts sfatId to shew that the re-enact-.
ment of the bill was essential to the main-
Stenance of tranquillity in Ireland ? Had
the house obtained even the bare responsi-
bility of a minister on the subject ? Not
one of these grounds of the necessity of
the measure had been brought before the
house. Independent of EI information,
Members were called on to give their as-
sent to a measure which confessedlyy vio.
lated the.free principles of the British con-
stitution. Whetn'any description of sub-
jects were to be deprived of a constitu-
;tional privilege, it was necessary to pro-
ceed with coolness and deliberation. Even
while rebellion raged in Ireland he had not
heard of resorting to martial law; and sus-
pending all appeal to the civil tribunals,
without a considerable portion of anxiety
and alarm. But what he desired the house
'to consider, were the specific grounds on


which thb introduction of martial law was
defended. It was on this principle, that
jurors were over awed in the discharge of
their duty, and that witnesses could not
come forward to give their testimony with-
out great personal danger. It wa.: because
the.ordinary tribunals of justice were ne-
cessarily shut up, fiom the causes which he
had now stated, that it became necessary
to have recourse to military decisions. If
the same circumstances now existed, he
should, however reluctant to violate the
constitution, give his assent to the motion.
No such circumstances did, however, exist
at this period. Jurors could discharge their
duty with the utmost safety. Witnesses
could come forward to give their testimony\
without any apprehension of danger. Per-
sons guilty of rebellion had been arraigned
before the ordinary tribunals of justice, had
been convicted on the clearest evidence,
and had suffered the sentence of the law.
If the grounds on which martial law was
formerly resorted to did not exist, it was
not surely asking too much to require some
new grounds for re-enacting a bill vesting
the executive government with extraordi-
nary and unconstitutional powers. It cer-
tainly was not too much to ask, that if new
grounds did exist they should be stated.
To assent to a bill of this kind without any
grounds was whathe never could, under
any circumstances, do, acting as a repre-
sentative to parliament. If the hon. sec.
of state was determined to persist in
pressing the bill, it was at least fair that he
should not precipitate its progress through
the house. It would be fair to allow those
gentlemen who were more particularly
connected with Ireland an opportunity of.
offering their sentimnientg on the subject.
The number of Irish members now in their
.place was very inconsiderable, and they
had a right to be consulted before the con-
stitutional privileges of their constituents
were suspended or violated. He had
thought it his duty to throw out .these few
observations to the house. Before he sat
down, he begged leave to repeat, he did
not oppose the re-enactment of. the bill
from any want of confidence in the mode
in which it would be applied by ministers.
He had no doubt that their application of
the powers with which it vestedthem would
be mild and merciful. His objections were,
however, founded in respect for the con-
stitution, and the character of the govern-
ment, and should not induce him to vote
for a bill, of the necessity for which not the
slightest evidence had-been adduced.
Mr. Corry rose,to make a few observa-


[16qo





1601] PARL. DEBATES, DEc. 2.-Martial L~ b in Ireland.


tions in reply. The hon. gent. had said,
that in all former cases of the passing of
the martial law bill, rebellion actually
raged, or tranquillity was very seriously
,disturbed. He begged leave to set the
hon. member right on that head. In the
year 180o, this very bill had been not only
once but twice renewed in the course of
the same session, though at tjfat time no
rebellion or appearance of rebellion ex-
isted from one part of Ireland to another.
The hon. gent. seemed to be unacquainted
with the history of the rebellion. He did
not appear to be aware that the machina-
tions of the disaffected were at their origin
carefully veiled in darkness; that their
views were gradually disseminated over the
country; that it was not till their party was
fully organized that they broke oit into
acts of open rebellion. The wisdom .of
parliament had been exerted in a number
of acts to discover and to disconcert their
views. Every effort had been employed
to trace out the different relations and bear-
ings of the conspiracy. These efforts had,
however, failed of success. Never till
the' act in question was passed were the
designs of rebellion fully ascertained. Ne-
ver till government was armed with these
extraordinary powers was any thing like
tranquillity or confidence restored. Though
individuals continued to suffer ; though acts
of insurrection and violence were not alto.
gether destroyed; yet the constitution was
saved and the sinews of the rebellion were
annihilated. This effect he ascribed, more
than to any other cause, to the repeated
re-enactments of this bill in the course of
the year 180oz and 1803. The hon. gent.
however, did not see the necessity of re-
enacting the bill at the present period. He
had said, that the grounds of its re-enact-
ment formerly was the intimidation of ju-
rors and witnesses in the performance of
their duty, but at this moment jurors were
unmolested; witnesses could give their
testimony without any dread of the conse-
quences ; all the ordinary forms of law and
of justice were observed. He would not
pretend to deny that this description of the
state of the country was correct, but he
would maintain that the present tranquillity
of the country was the effect of the very
.bill to which the hon. gent. so strongly
objected. It was not unknown to the hon.
.member and the house, that till the bill
was passed the system of intimidation was
universally prevalent, and the courts of
'common law were as a matter of necessity
shut, not against rebels alone, but against
the loyal part of the community, who were
VoL, IV.


making every sacrifice in support of the
constitution and the existing government.
It was not till the rebels found that they
could not prosecute their schemes with any
hopes of success, that the strong powers
vested in the government rendered their
detection and punishment a matter of al-
most absolute certainty, that continuance
in rebellion was only another term for de-
struction, that they thought of abandoning
their traitorous projects, that they sat down
in laborious tranquillity, and began to re-
turn to the habits of dutiful allegiance.
If the hon. member looked to the state
of Ireland, merely as it. was at this
day, his view would be extremely partial and
limited. To be able to reason fairly on the
subject, it behoved him to look at the pro-
gress and various modifications of the rebel-
lion. He ought to compare the means used
to spread disaffection with the means em-
ployed to check its diffusion among the lower
orders. Among these last means, he had the
universal testimony of the best informed per-
sons in Ireland, that this measure had been
one of the greatest and efficient causes of the
return of tranquillity and order, of the pos-
sibility of continuing the ordinary exercise of
the form of the common law courts of the
land. Independent of this measure, the hon.
gent. would not this day have had it in his
power to notice the present tranquillity of
Ireland as an argument against the re-enact-
mept of the bill. So far from viewing the
re-enactment of the bill as any act of seve-
rity to the loyal and well-disposed part of
the community, he viewed it in the opposite
light. By all loyal and well-disposed indi-
viduals, it would be considered as a'measure
not of oppression, but of protection ; not of
vigour, but of wise precaution, on the part
of the government. It would dispel their
apprehensiohs, and give them new energy
in their opposition to the designs of the dis-
affected. It would enable them' to check
rebellion at its first opening, and leave to
them the privilege of appealing for the re-
dress of injuries.to the ordinary tribunals of
their country. The proclamation of martial
law, by the exercise of the prerogative wis,
what every friend to the constitution would
be anxious to avoid. It was to avoid the
necessity of such a measure, that'the bill was
originally introduced, and was now proposed
to be continued. Without such a bill trai-
tors might escape unpunished, and,loyal ci-
tizens might be deprived of their consiitu-
tional privileges, and dragged before military
tribunals. On, these grounds the bill had
-his hearty support, and he hoped it would
also obtain the support of the house. It was
Q q


* [16o02,





PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 2,-Irish Bank Resltrltion.Bill.


a bill which, from his knowledge of the pre-
sent state of Ireland, he had no difficulty in
pronouncing essential to the continuance of
tranquillity.
Mr. John Claudius Beresford begged the
indulgence of the house, while he made a
few observations. His hon. friend under
* the gallery, (Mr. Burrows) had urged two
objections to the re-enactment of the bill, at
least, *without more nature consideration.
The first objection was, that no facts were
produced to justify the necessity of the mea-
sure. The second objection was drawn from
* the thinness of the members particularly con-
nected with Ireland, and best fitted to give
information to the house on the subject.
With regard to the first objection, it was un-
necessary for him to take up the time or at..
tention of the house. His right hon. friend
had fully removed this objection, and he
heartily agreed with his right hon. friend,
that if(the measure were not renewed, the
same system of terror, which had been al-
luded to, would immediately be renewed in
all its horrors. With regard,to the thinne`s
* of the attendance of members connected with
Ireland, he should make one or two retiiarks.
'Having been very recently in, Ireland, and
having.had occasion to ascertain what were
the sentiments of at least three-tburths of the
Irish members resident in that country, as to
'the expediency and necessity of the measure,
he requested the house, on his veracity, to be
assured, that they were to a man 'convinced,
that the re-enactment of the bill was indis-
pensably necessary to the preservation of
tranquillity, and to the protection of all loyal
subjects. They were- so thoroughly con-
vinced of its necessity, that they expected
the re-erlactment of the bill would be one of
the earliest acts of the session. If they had
not indulged such an expectation, they
would, at this moment, have been in their
places to solicit its re-enactment. This sen-
timent,, of the necessity of the measure, he
might add, was not confined to members,
but was entertained by every loyal man in
every part of the country. He, himself, had
beer the only Irish member, who had ex-
pressed doubts respecting the loyalty of the
lower orders, in opposition to the opinion of
a number of other most respectable indivi-
duals. He rejoiced to find, that the opinion'
he entertained of the disloyalty of the lower
orders was erroneous, and that the spirit of
disaffection was much less general than he
-had dreaded: At .this moment all good men
of every party were-animated with feelings
of loyalty, arid convinced of the necessity of
defending the country against the common
enetmy.." Every man who possessed only 201L


-a year, was know disposed to unite against all
foreign and domestic- foes. The late insur-
rection had not a twentieth part of the ex-
tent of the rebellion of 1798 ; and all classes
of the people, with an exception of a few of
the lower orders, were universally disposed
to assist government against an invading
enemy.-He was also authorized to state,
that it was the wish of all sects in that king-
dom, that no question should be brought
forward, which might have the effect of agi-
tating the public mind, at a period, when it
was so;essential, that all descriptions should
unite in the defence of their common inte-
rests.-Leave was obtained to bring in the
bill; which was read a first time, and or-
dered to be read a second time on Monday.
[IRISH BANK RESTRICTION BILL.]-Mr..
Corny, pursuant to notice, moved for leave to
bring in a bill to continue, for a time to be
limited, the restriction on the issues of cash
by the bank of Ireland. It was unnecessary
for him to -urge any reasons to induce the
house, to agree to his motion. The same
motives that induced the house to entertain
the bill with respect to the Bank of England,
applied to the present ease, and as the mea-
sure, lie proposed, was always consequential
to that which had been introduced within a
few days by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
he should content himself barely with mov-
ing, that leave be given. Leave was given.
-Mr. Corry then moved, that there be laid
before the house, an account of the amount
of bank of Ireland notes, including bank post
bills, payable at seven days sight, in circula-
tion on the first days of January, April, June,
and September, 1800 ; also, amount in cir-
culation on the first days of April, May, and.
June, 1801 ; also, amount in circulation on
the first days of June, August, October, and,
November, 1802, and first of February,1803;
also, amount in circulation on the first days
of January, April, August, and September,
1803 ; distinguishing, in this last instance,
the value of those below the value of five
guineas. Ordered.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, December 3.
[MINUT Es.] Mr.Hobhouse brought up the
report of the committee upon expiring laws.
The resolutions were read and agreed to, and
bills were ordered to be brought in pursuant
to them.-Mr. Secretary Yorke presented a
copy of a proclamation issued by the lord lieu-
tenant of Ireland, to prevent distillation
from oats and oatmeal in that country. Or-
dered to be laid on the table.-k r. Corry


g
.,5


[1604






PARL. DEBATES, D'E. 5-Minutes.


gave notice, that on Monday he should move
for'leave to bring in a bill to indemnify the
lord-lieutenant of Ireland for issuing this
proclamation ; and also, that he should.
move for the- introduction of a clause into
that bill to enable the lord-lieutenant'to im-
pose such a prohibition, during a time to be
limited.-Mr. Hobhouse brought up the re-
port of the committee for considering the
propriety of affording a temporary relief to
StheCurates displaced by the operation of the
bill for enforcing the residence of the clergy;
The resolution for granting 8000 for this
purpose was agreed to.-Sir Francis Burdett
presented a petition on behalf of the church-
wardens and overseers of the poor of the pa-
rish of St. Pancras, in the county of Middle-
sex, setting forth that the duties of their
offices had increased so much that they
wanted assistants to be appointed in order
to enable them to do justice to their situa-
tions, &c. Referred to a select committee.
-The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave
notice, that on Monday he should move, that
a committee be appointed to investigate the
joint account between Great-Britain and
Ireland, as in the last session. -Mr. Hob-
house brought up the report of the committee
of supply on certain parts of the naval service
voted yesterday. The resolutions were read
and agreed to. Mr. Corry brought in the
bill for continuing the restrictson on pay-
ment in specie by the bank of Ireland.
Read a first time, and ordered to be read a
second time on Monday.-The bill for con-
tinuing the restriction on cash payments by
the bank of England, went through a com-
mittee. On the motion of Mlr. Vansittart,
the blank was filled up w~i the words,
" six months after the-ratificaiion of a de-
" finitive treaty of peace." The report was
ordered to be received on Monday.-The
House went into a committee to consider of
the propriety of renewing, for a further time,
the liberty granted for bonding Portugal
wines, which had expired on the 10th of
October. Mr. Vansittart, in stating the pro-
priety of extending this indulgence, stated
also, that it was thought adviseable to give
the benefit of it to Spanish wines. A reso-
lution to this effect was agreed to, and being
reported, the committee appointed to bring
in the bill for the continuation of expiring
laws was ordered to make provision accor-
dingly.-Mr. Vansittart brought in the an-
nual bill for indemnifying magistrates and
others who had neglected to take the ne-
cessary oaths. The bill was read a first time,
and ordered to be read a. second time on
Monday.- Mr. Corry gave notice, that he
would move in the proper stage to introduce


a clause into this bill for extending the bene-.
fit of the indemnity to Ireland.

'"HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, December 5.
Their Lordship met at a little after three,
when the appeal from the court of session
of Scotland in which Christie and Keay were
appellants, and Proudfoot, Dean of Guild
and the Guild Council of the Burgh of
Perth, respondent; came before them.
Messrs. Adams and Grant were heard on
the part of the appellants, and Mr. Romilly
for the respondent. The farther hearing of
council was deferred until to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, December 5;
[MINUTES.] The bill for inclosing lands
in the manor and parish of F'ulbeck. in
the county of Lincoln, for making com-
pensation for the tithes arising within the
same parish, was read a second, time, and
committed. Mr. Manning brought in a'
bill to enable the London dock-company to
raise a farther sum af 500,000 for the con-
struction of wet docks and other works, for
the greater accommodation of the London
merchants. Read a first time and ordered
to be read a second time.-Mr. Grant ac-
quainted the House that Col. F.iW. Grant,
who had been ordered to attend in his place
onWednesday next, had arrived in town, and
would attend in his place to-morrow.-Mr.
Secretary Yorke presented at the bar, by his
Majesty's command, a copy of the convention
between his Britanuick Majesty and the King
of Sweden, signed on the 25ih of Julv 1803;
Ordered to lie on the table.-Mr. Secre-
tary Yorke moved the second reading of
the bill for continuing the suspension of the_
habeas corpus act in Ireland. The bill was
accordingly read- a second time without giv-
ing rise to any debate, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow. Mr. Pole: presented,
the ordnance estimates for 1804, which.were
ordered to lie on the table, and the hon..
inember gave notice that he would, on Fri-.
day next, in the committee of supply, move
the consideration of these estimates after the
army estimates were disposed of. -- The
Chancellor of the Exchequer moved that a
committee be appointed to enquire into the
expenditure of the United Kingdom, from
the first day of Jan. 1801, and the sums con-
tributed thereto by Great-Britain and Ire-
land respectively, and report the same with
their opinion thereupon, to the 1-iduse,
And a committee was appointed accordingly
*Q q2


[.6o6






PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 5.-Oats Distillation Bill.


-In a committee of supply the committee
on the motion of Sir Philip Stephens, voted
the following sumsj for the transport service,
for the year 1804, 709,000 ; for prisoners
of war at home and abroad, 220,000; for
sick prisoners of war, 40.000 ; the House
being resumed, the report was presented.-
Mr. Corry rose to move for leave to bring in
a bill to suspend the act of last session, pro-
hibiting the negotiation of small notes in Ire-
land. He wished it to be. understood that
'government did not by this means propose
any general system or permanent regula-
tion on the subject. They only proposed
this as a temporary measure till the Irish
members hitherto detained at home, by
their attention to the defence of their own
shores, could be present, and the question
could be fully considered. Leave was given
and the bill brought in and read a first time,
and ordered to be read a second time to-
morrow. TheHousehaving gone into a com-
mittee on expiring laws, a retprt was agreed,
and reported, on which Mr. Corry brought
in a bill to suspend certain acts prohibiting
:the exportation from Ireland, of corn, po-
tatoes and provisions, and to permit their im-
portation for a time to be limited. The
bill was read a first time, and ordered to be
read a second time to-morrow.-The sea-
imen's desertion bill was read a third time
and passed.-The malt duty bill was read a
first time, and ordered for a second reading
to-morrow.-A bill for continuing and regu-
lating thebounty on sugar exported from Ire-
land was read a first time and ordered to be
read a second time to-morrow.-The pen-
sion, &c. duty bill was read a first time and
ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.
-The curate's relief bill was read a first
time and ordered to be read a second time to-
znorrow.-The bill to suspend the act prohi-
biting the negotiation, &c. of small notes in
SIreland, was read a first time and ordered to
be read a second, time to-morrow.-A bill
for continuing an act discontinuing certain
bounties on the exportation of sugar, was
read a first time and ordered for a second
reading to-morrow.-Th.efive millions ex-
chequer bills bill was read a first time.-The
Jest indemnity bill was read a first time.
" OATS DISTILLATION BILL.]-Mr. Corrty,
pursuant to his notice on Saturday, rose to
move for leave to bring in a bill to indem-
niy.' the lord lieutenant, and such as had
acted under the authority of his proclama-
ion, issued in October, prohibiting the dis-
tillation of spirits from oats, which had been
laid before the house by his right hon. friend
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It would-'
:be necessary for him to state the cause and


circumstances of the proclamation,-before he
should submit his motion to the house., The
prohibition had arisen from a supposed
failure of the crop of potatoes, in consequence
of the extreme drought of the season. Po-
tatoes constituted the chief support of the
mass of the people of that country,, and the
failure of a crop had thessame effect there as
the failure of a crop of wheat,would have in
this country, or of a crop of oats in the
northern part of it. The active vigilance of
the Irish government, had ascertained that
there was a deficiency in the crop of pota-
toes, in three out of the four provinces of
Ireland, and therefore, it became the wis-
dom of his excellency to provide for the sup-
ply of this deficiency, by prohibiting the use
of oats in distillation. This he had done by
a proclamation, issued in October, in which
he had exceeded the powers which the law
allowed him ; and the object of the bill he
should move for, was to indemnify him for
having done so. He trusted, the house would
consider the conduct of the Irish govern-
ment, on this occasion, rather as deserving
approbation than censure, for the laudable
attention it had manifested in providing for
the support of' the people. He trusted the
house would not object to the measure, an'd
he proposed, if the house should accede to
his motion, to introduce into the bill a clause
to enable the lord lieutenant, or other chief
governor of Ireland, to prohibit, for a certain
time, by proclamation, the distillation of
spirits from oats. He was aware of the ef-
fect such a measure might have on the land-
ed interest, and the revenue, but he trusted '
there would be no difficulty or objection to
trusting such a discretionary power to the
lord lieutenant, who would have every in-
ducement to forbear from the exercise of it,
He should not trespass further on the house,
but move, that leave be given to bring in the
bill, &c. and the question being put, and the
proclamation entered as read.
Mr. Francis did not mean to oppose the
motion, though an enemy to every exercise
of power contrary to law; he was inclined
to approve of it in the present instance, where
it had been evidently directed to secure the
country from famine. The- lord lieutenant,
he thought, liad acted right, and of the de-
scriptions of power, the one proposed to be
committed to him, by the present measure,
was least likely to be abused. He should
not be sorry, if greater powers were given, or'
if the, distillation of oats were altogether pro-
hibited, for, he was confident, that much
serious mischief was caused by the use of
that pernicious liquor, whiskey, so made.
,Mr, Corry too- 'the opportunity of the hon.


[1608






PARL. DEBATES, DEc. 5.-Irish Martial Law Bill.


gentleman's observations, to throw out a re-
mark, for' the purpose of quieting any ap-
prehensions that might be entertained by
another body of men, the distillers, whose
interests concurred with the interests of the
revenue. For that purpose, therefore, he
threw out, by way of notice,. that regard
would be had to their interests, by- a regula-
tion of revenue.
[INDIA BONDS.]-Lord Castlereagb moved
the order of the day, for the second reading
of the bill for regulating the interest on
India bonds; on the question being put,
* Mr. Gregor said, he did not mean to op-
pose the measure ; on the contrary, he was
obliged to the noble lord for bringing in any
bill to amend or rectify the defects of the
property-tax act. It had been stated from
authority, that no alteration was to be made
in that act during the present session; but,
for his own part, he was of opinion, that it
was a perfectly impracticable act. By that,
he meant,.that it could not be executed ac-
cording to its letter; but, if executed at all,
must be executed according to the arbitrary,
or discretionary interpretation of the com-
missioners. He had received letters on the
subject from two gentlemen of good sense
and intelligence, who had been appointed
commissioners; they were of opinion, that
the act, in its present form, could not be
executed. He did not mean to enter into
the detail of all its clauses., and should only
advert to one clause, which directed that the
commissioners of the land-tax should be the
commissioners for executing this act. The
hon. member contended, that in place of a
board of collection, a board of control was
thus established. He threw out this obser,
vatipn merely to call the attention of gentle-
men to the defects of this act.
Mr. Vansittart observed, that only one of
the hon. gentleman's observations applied to
the question before the house. The hon.
gent. had confessed himself much obliged to
the noble lord, for bringing in a bill to ex-
plain any part of the property tax bill. His
noble friend's measure, however, went only
to amend the mode of collection in one in-
stance, and not to alter any of the provisions
of the act. With regard to the other obser-
vations of the hon. gent., he felt it would be
to travel out of the question, to advert to
them. It would be found, that the act, to
which the hon. gent. had alluded, though
perhaps containing some difficulty or obscu-
rity, was, on the whole, more perspicuous
than gentlemen were disposed to admit.
[IRISH MARTIAL LAW BILL.]-MI'. Se-
cretary Yorke proved the order of the day,


for the second, reading of the Irish martial
law bill. On the question being put, that
the bill be read a second time,
Mr. WVilliam Elliot rose, 'and spoke as
follows:-Sir; the observations, which I am
about to offer, will be comprised within a
very narrow compass. Indeed, I should not
have intruded myself at all upon the patience
of the house, if I could, compatibly with the
view I entertain of my duty towards the
country, to which this bill immediately re-
lates, have permitted a measure of such mo-
ment to pass in a silence, that might have
the appearance of a listless indifference.
The affairs of Ireland must be universally
admitted to merit the serious attention and
earnest solicitude of every member of Parlia-
ment; but there are several among us, who
are under more peculiar and indispensable
obligations to watch over its concerns. I
mean, Sir, those who gave their votes for the
legislative union of the two countries. It
does especially behove such of us as were in-
strumental in the extinction of the local par-
liament- of Ireland, to shew to the people of
that country, so far at least as may depend
upon our individual exertions, that we have
substituted in its ,place a legislature ade-
quate, not only in means, but in zeal, dili-
gence, and constancy, for the discharge of the
trust confided to it. The local Parliament,
Sir, had indisputably one eminent advantage.
Being, from the very circumstance of its lo-
cality, more intimately mixed with the trans-
actions of the country, it had a shorter and
more easy access to information in respect t6
its internal state than a more remote legisla-
ture can possess. This inconvenience attach-
ed to the united Parliament, the friends of
the union believed, would be far over-ba-
lanced by the numerous and solid benefits
likely to accrue from -that measure; but no
one can contend, that it is not an additional
call on this Parliament, for its most active
vigilance and assiduous application with re-
gard to the.interests of Ireland. The inqui-
sitorial power of Parliament, Sir, is the very
vital principle of all its privileges and func-
tions, and I trust this authority will ever be
exercised fairly, faithfully, and impartially,
throughout every part of the united king-
dom. Before we frame laws for Ireland,
it is incumbent on us to have before us, an
accurate state of the country, for which we
are about to legislate. Under these impres,
sions, Sir, I come to the.matter before us,
which every one must feel to be of the most
grave and critical importance. It is a de-
mand upon us, for continuing to the execu-
tive government of Ireland, the power-of de-
priving, at its discretion, a very large.,de-


1609og]


'i6o10






PARL. DEBATES, DEc. 5.-Irish Martial Law Bill.


[1612


scription of our fellow subjects of those
rights of liberties, to which, by the-ordinary
principles of the constitution, they are en-
titled. The measure, Sir, has certainly been
often adopted. That it has been too fre-
quently necessary, and that in many in-
stances even the preservation of the country
has been attributable to it, is a position I
shall be the last man in this house to de-
ny, and should be at variance with all my
past conduct, if I were disposed to dispute it.
But I should feel myself acting in direct con-
tradiction to the motives, which have on for-
mer occasions impelled me. to vote for the
measure, if I were not to expect such par-
.liamentary, information as might enable
every gentleman to form a clear and satis-
factory judgment in Yrespect to its present
necessity. I was a member, Sir, in the
Irish parliament, at the period in which the
first martial law bill was introduced, and
if I am inaccurate in my recollection of the
grounds upon which it was originally found-
ed, Lam in the presence of several gentle-
men, who are well able to correct me. On
the commencement of the rebellion in the
year 1798, the lord lieutenant, with the ad-
vice of the privy council, issued orders
(notified by proclamation) .to the officers
commanding his Majesty's forces to employ
the troops under their command with the ut-
most vigour and decision for the suppression
of the rebellion ; the rebellion, however, ex-
-tending itself, insomuch that several very
daring attacks and outrageswere committed
both on the troops and on the persons and
properties of many loyal persons, the lord
lieutenant, by the advice of the privy
council, directed all the general .officers'
commanding his Majesty's forces, to punish
all rebellious offenders according to martial
law. This order was likewise notified by
a proclamation, which, together with the
former order and proclamation, was com-
municated to parliament; and the houses
of lords and commons by their addresses,
,expressed their entire approbation of those
measures, with assurances to his excel-
lency of their cordial support. Never-
theless the rebellion continued so late as
the year 1799 in several parts of the coun-
try, and the ordinary course of justice and
of the common law was in many places in-
terrupted,- in consequence of which the
martial law bill was enacted. All these
particulars, Sir, are set forth in the pre-
amble to that act, which will be found
among the Irish statutes now before you;
and I cannot omit to remark that, when
the bill was introduced, there were on the


table of the Irish house of commons two
reports of two secret committees, which
-contained a very minute and detailed his-
tory both of the system and extent of the
treason connected with the rebellion, and
the last of the reports had been presented
so late as the end of the preceding session.
In the year i8oo-the law was revived, but
in fact it was to be considered as a conti-
nuance of the former act passed upon the
grounds I have stated ; and it is to be ob-
served too, that at the opening of the ses-
sion the lord lieutenant had stated in his
speech from the throne, that, though4pub-
lic tranquillity had been in a great mea-
sure restored, there still continued iri seve-
ral districts a disposition to outrage and
conspiracy. In the year i8oi the act of
the former year was, about the period of
the King's recovery, continued for a very
short time, by the united parliament, with-
out.an enquiry; andlit was in the course
of the same session renewed a second time;
but upon what proceeding did the house
then adopt the measure ? On a report
from a secret committee actually recom-
mending it.-And you, Sir, then chief se-
cretary to the lord lieutenant of Ireland,
brought in the bill upon that specific
ground. Now, Sir, let me ask, whether
the house possesses such information in the
present instance, as that to which both the
Irish and the united parliament were
thought entitled, when on former occasions
they have passed this measure ? From the
introduction of the law, which this bill is
intended to continue, to this moment we
only know that there was a rebellious in-
surrection in Dublin, on the 23d of July
last, in which Lord Kilwarden and his
nephew were murdered. The extent of
the conspiracy, whether there were any
correspondent movements in the North or
South of Ireland, whether any papers were
found developing the object of the trea-
son, are points of which parliament has
been kept in a state of the most profound
and humiliating ignorance. When. the
message communicating the insurrection
was delivered I was absent from town, but
I have on a former occasion declared, that,
if I had been in the house, I should have
given my vote for the existing law, partly
on a temporary and coerced confidence in
the assertions of his Majesty's ministers,
that prompt and vigorous measures were
absolutely necessary, and partly on the
intelligence contained in private letters,
which several of my acquaintance in Lon-
don had received. But, Sir, I protest I





, PARL. DEBATES,, ,DEc. 5.-Irish Martial Law.


.should have voted for it under a clear
conviction that .his Majesty's ministers
would, so soon as they could have ar.
ranged and digested it, laid before Par-
liament a farther detailed. communication'
not only in respect to the conspiracy
but to the general state of the coun-
try, and on this ground gave my'most' cor-
dial and zealous support to a motion, which
was made at the close of the last session for
procuring such information. The Parliament
however was prorogued without one ray of
light on the situation of Ireland, and in this
slate of darkness we are now called upon to
continue these extraordinary powers to the
.Irish government. Sir, I do for one declare
with the most genuine sincerity, that in the
present dearth- of our information, I do not
feel able to form a decisive judgment upon
this question, for it is impossible even to
estimate the real magnitude of the late con-
spiracy, which seems always to expand or
contract in conformity to the views of those
who describe it. I am therefore not prepared
to.negative the bill, but I must express my
hope .that the progress of it will be sus-
pended until some parliamentary ground
is laid for its necessity. Ireland may be in
such a state as to render the measure abso-
lutely requisite, but. surely, Sir, it is not
too much to ask for some document, some
evidence, some information on the subject.
It may be saidthat this bill is only the contin-
uance of an existing law, and that in one
or two instances the martial law bill has
been renewed without any previous speci-
fic communication from government ; but,
Sir, the present proposition is for the con-
tinuance of an act, which passed, as it were,
by acclamation, in the exigency of the mo-
ment, and which itself, as I contend, stands,
in a constitutional view, upon a defective
title; It will probably be alleged too that
we ought to vote this measure upon con-
fidence in his Majesty's ministers, who will
be responsible for the execution of it. Now,
Sir, I aver it is a case, in which there is no
pretence for confidence. On a subject of
such magnitude and importance I cannot
consent to act on the principle of implicit
faith in any government. Much inform.
tion may clearly be given to us, which cata
.be divulged without a possibility of detri-
ment to the state, and that class of intel-
ligence, which may require more caution
land.reserve in the communication of it, may
,b-e afforded to us through the medium of a
secret commitice. No injury can result.
.from the delay as the existing law will not
expire for sotae wtql. .ut perl pps, lis



Wn'. '..........


'Majesty's ministers may tell me that they
cannot argue with me on the point of con-
fidence, as I profess a general want of con-
fidence in them; and concur with those
who think them incompetent to the trust
they have assumed. But such, Sir, is the
whimsical dilemma in which ministers have
placed themselves, that I defy any man, who
gives implicit faith to the scanty information
they have furnished to us, to vote for-this
measure. I relied upon the little intelli-
gence they have afforded us, I must, on
the plain principles of common sense and
justice, meet this bill with my unqualified
negative. The only parliamentary informa.-
tion before the house in respect to the state
of Ireland is contained in thze King's speech,'
for the trials, to which we have been refer-
red, do not come within the description of
parliamentary documents. Now, Sir, in
the King's speech the conspiracy is alluded
to as a past event. We are told that the
" public tranquillityhas experienced no fur-
' other interruption, and that a hope is indul-
" ged, that such of his Majesty's deluded sub-
' jects as have swerved from their allegiance
" are now convinced of their error; and
" that having compared the advantages they
" derive from the protection of a free con-
" stitution, with the condition of those
" countries which are under the domi-
" nion of the French government, thejr
" will cordially and, zealously conctr in
" resisting any attempt that may be made
" against the security and independence of
" the united kingdom," We have gene-
rally, Sir, been accustomed to hear, the ad-
vantages of the British constitution de.
scribed as positive benefits, and I cannot
help remarking, that this is the first in-
stance within my recollection, in which
they have been in a state paper exem-
plified by a mere comparison with the mi-
series of'surrounding nations. Butto proceed,
Sir, the only other source of infoFmation is'
the report of the proceedings of the special
commission in Dublin for, the trial of the'
conspirators. This, however, I must again
deny to be a parliamentary docur.ent; but
I 'have recourse to it, partly for want of
other intelligence, and partly because I un-
derstand his Majesty's ministers have .in a
former, discussion. on this subject recom-
mended us to resort to it. In making this
reference, I naturally look to the opinion of
the first law-officer of the crown, who must
be supposed to have the best means of infor-
mation, and I shall therefore take, tke li-
berty of reading to the house two or three
passages from different parts of the speech


U4





PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 2.-Irish Martial Law B3ill.


of the attorney general to the jury, on the
first trial that took place under the special
commission, from which gentlemen will be
able to collect his sentiments, both with re-
spect to the general state of the country, and
to the magnitude of the late conspiracy.-
Speaking of the disastrous transactions of the
23d of July, he says: Certainly it is mat-
" ter of some consolation to know, that the
' conspiracy which broke out into open
, insurrection on the 23d of July last, was
" confined within much narrower limits than
' the promoters of it are willing to inculcate.
SWhether we consider the numbers who
have embarked in the enterprise, their
- wealth or their character,it will appear con-
Ste'mptible in the extreme. So far as it had
" for, its odious object the subversion of the-
government and constitution of this coun-
" try, it was absurd and romantic, it was
" idlei and visionary even in the opinion of
many of those who embraced it."-A gain,
" notwithstanding the horrors of that night
(23d July) which no man can regret more
" than I do, yet I think they furnish some
I ground for reflection, that the people, who
" bad been worked into arms ftrm one end of
the country to the other in 1798, dould not
be roused beyond the assemblage of a DES-
PERAZTE MOB, as contemptible in number
as it was atrocious in disposition. After
avowing their object to be to overset the
government of the country, and to break
the connexion with England, they state
that 10 counties will come forward with
promptitude to effect it. But five weeks
have since elapsed, and not one single
county has come forward at their call.
THE CONSPIRACY SEEMS ALMOST END-
ic ED WHERE IT BEGAN," And in an-
other passage the learned gentleman ob.
serves, though from the abandoned pro-
fligacy of those who wete employed in
the execution of it (the conspiracy), we
have to lament many private calamities
and disgusting horrors; yet perhaps they
should be considered as the visitations of
Providence to confound the-devices of our
enemies, and to rouse the loyal energies of
the nation." This Iast remark, however,
does not, I confess, appear to be quite con-
.sistent with the learned gentleman's general
impression of the improved disposition of the
country, for we cannot entertain a very fa-
voturable idea of the meliorated temper of a
people, who require the massacre of a chief
*magistrate and the loss of'several lives, in or-
der to rouse their loyal energies. But, Sir,
I believe I shall be allowed accurately to sum
.up the -information we have received, by
stating the amount to be, that the late con-


spiracy was contemptible both in numbers *
a'nd character, and seems almost to have
ended where it began, that there has been /
no further interruption of the public tran-
quillity, and that the hope is indulged that
the deluded are now convinced of their er-
ror, and that they will cordially and zealously
concur in the defence of the kingdom against
the common enemy. And what is the infe.
rence, which his Majesty's ministers 're-
quire us to draw from this statement ? The
continuance of the martial law bill! I Now,
Sir, I ask whether such a conclusion from
such premises would be reconcilable to any
principle of common reason and equity ? I
have not had an opportunity of looking intq *
the preamble of this bill, but I should
imagine that the drawing of it must have
exposed the reasoning faculties of the crown
lawyers (and no one can rate their talents
higher than I do) to great embarrassment.
If it fully describes the parliamentary ground
,.of the measure it must, I apprehend, run 4
thus. Whereas the late contemptible and
insignificant conspiracy in the city of Dublin,
was so speedily and effectually suppressed,
that it seems almost to have ended where it
began, and whereas the public tranquility has
experienced no further interruption, and
there is reason to indulge the hope, that the
deluded are convinced of their error, and a
that they will cordially and zealously concur
in resisting any attempt that may be made
against the security and independence of the
united kingdom ; be it enacted, that the
lord-lieutenant of Ireland be invested with
the power of declaring martial law, &c. &c."
Now, Sir, this I apprehend, will not be
thought sound logic, and yet such must be
the language of this bill, if it is framed on the
only information his Majesty's ministers have
afforded to parliament, and thus, I trust I
have proved myself justified in *asserting,
that those who reposed with implicit con-
fidence on the representations of the king's
servants, must, as it appears to me, on every
principle .of consistency and justice, give this
measure their most decided opposition. But
I, Sir, profess myself to have no such con-
fidence. I have long since remarked with
deep regret, that his Majesty's minieters are
apt to take very false and erroneous views of
the situation of the affairs intrusted to their
direction. We all remember the expecta-
tion, which they seemed to indulge them-
selves, and which they certainly permitted
the public to indulge, until almost the very
day, on which the chancellor of the exche- <
quer announced the menacing preparations
of the enemy:' But Ireland, Sir, itself fur-
nishes a most illustrious instance of this sort


4 '* . ? '


[1M0






PARL, DEBATES, DEC. s.--uish Martial Law Bilt


of self delusion on the part of his Majesty's
ministers. The flattering descriptions .of the
state of that country, which were given at
various times by several gentlemen, in the
course of the last session, cannot have been
forgot by any member of this house. The
speech of the right hon. gent. opposite to
me (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), on
one of these occasions, in answer to my
right hon.friend near me (Mr. Wind- !mn),
will not easily be effaced from my memory.
He told us that there were in this war,
none of the odious restrictions on the
liberties of the people, which it had
been necessary to impose in the last.
No suspension of the habeas corpus act.
No martial law bill. Loyalty, harmony,
and zeal for the public service, prevailed
universally throughout the united kingdom,
and all these benefits he described as' the re-
sult of the peace of Amiens; and yet within a:
week afterwards, I assert positively, within
a week afterwards, the same hon. gent.
came to this house, announcing an insur-
rection in Dublin, and bringing in his hand
two bills, one for the suspension of the
habeas corpus act, and the other for the
declaration of martial law. And here,
Sir, I trust, will terminate their vaunt-
ing encomiums on the peace of Amiens ;
for I protest, from past experience, I
never hear such exulting and ostentatious
statements from the treasury benah, with-
out a sort of superstitious apprehension
of some approaching calamity. But, Sir,
I must maintain, that the mysterious cir-
cumstances of this very transaction of the
23d of July, which is the basisof the pre-
sent measure, furnishes an additional rea-
son why the house should not proceed
without further information. It now ap-
pears; that, while his Majesty's ministers
were accumulating eulogies on the treaty
of Amiens, the rebels in Dublin were coll
ecting military stores; and that a large
magazine was actually formed, without, as
I have good foundation for believing, even
a suspicion of it,on the part of' the Irish
government. The government of Ireland,
however, was not without pretty'urgent
intimations ofs6metreasonableconfederacy.
The explosion of a secret gunpowder-mil
the detection of the conveyance of pre-
pared ammunition in the streets of Dublin,
and the intelligence, given by several most
i'espectable individuals, of sure indications
of approaching commotion, were formida-
ile warnings; nevertheless the government
seems to have been surprised. But when
this suggestion was made by my right hon.
friend near, me (Mr, Windham), his Ma-.
Vo'.. IV. .


jesty's ministers denied the imputation'
with indignation. Why," said my hoein.
friend, it was not unnatural for me to"
suppose it a surprise; because, a few days
only have intervened, since you gave this
house the most captivating description ofthe
internal tranquillity and loyalty of Ireland."'
Still the answer from-his Majesty's ministers
was, that the government in Ireland had
been prepared." What precautions did
you take, except strengthening two or
three guards in the vicinity of Dublin,"
asked my hon. friend ? Did you make any
previous communication.to the privy coun-
cil? No. To the lord mayor? No: the
Mansion-house was robbed of a considefa-'
ble quantity of arms. To the chief jus-
tice ? No : he fell a victim to his ignol.
rance of the information government 'os-
sessed." Nevertheless his Majesty's minis-
ters persevere in asserting, that proper pro-
vision was made against the impending dan-
ger, and that the conduct of the I-ish go-
vernment was full of energy and alertness,
The fact may have been so, Sir, but f ho-
nestly acknowledge I have my doubts of
it ; and I do in my conscience believe that
a majority of this house, and of the public,
doubt it. Sir, I criminate no man, for IL
know not, supposing there is ground for
censure, to whom the blame attaches'.
There is no one who entertains more per-
sonal respect and esteem, for the individual
at the head of the administration of Ire*
.land than I do, and for several members of
the different departments of that govern.-
ment I have the most cordial friendship :
but the very interest that I take in their
fame, increases my anxiety for an investi-.
gation of the mystery, in which this whole
transaction is enveloped. Sir, I beseeck
gentlemen fQr a moment to make this case
their own: suppose, that while his Ma-
jesty's ministers were exhausting their elo-
quence in expatiating on the internal har-
mony and loyalty attributed to a peace
which lasted but a twelvemonth, and 'in
the course of which the enemy was.de--
tected in devices for sending military spies
into the country, a traitorous plot should
have suddenly burnt dn this metropolis, and
that, in the exigency of the occasion, the
parliament had vested in the crown, the.
same powers it has given to the lord lieu-
tenant of Ireland : suppose it should have
afterwards appeared, that, 'though a secret
powder mill, and a quantity of prepared
ammunition, had been previously detected'
and the government warned of the danger,
by several most respectable persons, yet-
that no communication slwtild hoye been
R

Xj~s39


(1618


16173






PAR'L., DEBATES, UDac. 'S.-Irisk Martial La'w Bill.


made to the privy council, to any of the
great officers of state, or to the Lord Mayor,
and that the chief justice of the King's Bench
-should have been murdered, and the man-
sion house robbed of arms. Imagine, too,
that the session should have been permitted
to close without any detailed information to
Parliament ; that during the recess the at-
torney general should declare on the trials
,of the persons concerned in the treason, that
the. conspiracy was contemptible both in
respect to' numbers and character, and that it
hadtermiinated almostwhereitbegan; andt hat
the ensuing session should have been opened
by g'speech from the throne, acquainting
Parliament, that the public tranquillity had
experienced no further, interruption, and
that his Majesty indulged the hope that the
deluded were convinced of their error and
were returned to their allegiance: let it be
Imagined, I say, that, under such circum-
stances, a minister without the production
of a single document, should demand from
Parliament a renewal of a martial law bill,
I, solemnly put it to the honour of every
prember who hears me, whether he believes
this house would adopt such a measure with-
put even asking a question-. Sir, it is my
firt and honest conviction, that no minister
would presume even to make such a propo-
sition. If then we should not pass this bill
in our, own case without due proof, of its
necessity, what can be the sentiment of Ire-
land, if, in the instance of that part of the
united kingdom, we should adopt it with,
the' facility,' which his Majesty's ministers
seem to recommend to us. Here, Sir, is a
source to me of very painful and anxious
apprehensions. If we do treat the business -
of Ireland lightly, and superficially; if we
do appear to act negligently towards her
interests, we shall at the same time act
*offensively to her feelings. The people of
that country may begin to draw very un-
pleasant contrasts, they may say in our local
-Parliament our affairs would have experi-
enced a more grave- and serious attention,
.?ur antient legislature would not have sus-
pended our rights and privileges without
adequate evidence of the urgency of the
measure ;" and thus, Sir, -do I'dread that
the substantial benefits of the union may
be frustrated, and that if his Majesty's ser-
vants persevere in their present deportment
towards th~i affairs of Ireland, I may live to
repent the vote I gave for the accomplish-
ment of that great object. I perceive, by
the gestures of the gentleman opposite to
me, that they mean to accuse me of a course
of argument injurious to the public wel-
're but they wll do well to recollect, that
f ,


the mischief will be in their conduct; and
not in my statement, and I have felt it my
peculiar duty to seize this opportunity of
expressing my sense of the danger of their
system, because we are still in time to
anticipate it. For the reasons I have as-
signed, Sir, I shall not negative the bill;
but I do most earnestly exhort and conjure
his Majesty's ministers, for the dignity and
character of our proceedings, for the sake
of constitutional precedent, and in justice,
as well as policy towards Ireland, to defer
its further stages, until sufficient parlia-
mentary information, in respect to the situ-
ation ef that part of the united kingdom,
shall be furnished to the house,

Mr. Secretary Yorke considered the great-
er part of the speech of the right hon. gent.
to be directed more against the general con-
duct of the Irish government, than against
the bill now before the House. The hon,
member had thought proper to assert, that
the affairs of Ireland did not occupy so great
a share of the attention of government,
or of the house, as their vast importance
required. This was a very strong charge,
but of the facts on which it was to be
supported he professed himself to be totally
ignorant. When the hon. member thought
proper to give notice of a motion respecting
the affairs of Ireland, and that motion came
regularly before the house, he should be-
ready to meet any charges which were
brought forward. Till this was done, he
must content himself with giving the asser-
tion a general denial. A charge of so im-
portant a kind would require strong evidence
to support it, and he did not see the propriety
of bringing it forward in a loose, unsup-
ported manner. The hon. member had
said, that it was particularly the duty of
those who had voted for the union, to pay
the utmost attention to the affairs of, Ire-
land. For himself, he thought it equally
the duty of all members to pay every
possible degree of attention to this subject
whenever it came to be fairly discussed,
and he had no doubt that it would at all
times receive the gravest and most mature
consideration, such as its high importance
was entitled to. A great deal had been
said in the hoas"'gentleman's speech about
-additional information. He wished to know
of what description the information was
which was required. The information be-
fore the house was, that the rebellion ip
Ireland had been- suppressed, that measures
of precaution were, however indispensibly
necessary, more especially when it was con-
siderod that the onet* had 4Yowed Vl do-


[l620






PARL. DEBATES, Die. 5.-Irisa Martial Law Bill. '


termination to avail himself of the insur-
rection of the disaffected to aid his designs
of invasion both against this country and
Ireland. These appeared to him simple,
elear, and satisfactory grounds for the re-
newal of the bill, as the best measure of
precaution which could be adopted. The
hon. member, in reference to the late rebel-
lion which broke out in the capital of Ire-
land, had thought proper to assert that the
government was surprised, and that suffi-
cient measures had not been adopted to pre-
vent this desperate attempt of a few enthu-
siastic individuals. He must now, and on
every occasion where such an assertion was
made, distinctly deny that the government
of Ireland was in any degree surprised. It
was equally remote from the truth, that
proper measures of precaution had not been
adopted. The measures of precaution con-
sisted in a numerous and well appointed
garrison. When he stated to the house, that
there were on the night of the insurrection
in Dublin four veteran regiments, besides the
16th reg. of light dragoons, one of the best
appointed regiments in the service, making
a total of betwixt 3 and 4,000 men, it could
not be pretended with the smallest justice
that the government had been wanting in
measures of precaution for the defence of
the capital. He would venture to affirm,
and he would defy any gentleman to disprove
his observation, that the force in Dublin on
the 23d day of July, in the evening of
which the insurrection had broken out, was
adequate to the suppression, not only of the
miserable mob of infatuated individuals then
engaged, but of a number more than ten
times their amount. With equal confidence
1e would assert, that the safety of Dublin
was never, even for one moment, in danger.
The best proof of 'this was, that after the
military were brought to act, an hour had
not elapsed before the rebels had dispersed
and tranquillity was restored. It could not
be -seriously pretended, that the wretched
mob of the 23d of July could ever have
put the capital of Ireland in a state of the
smallest danger. Their number, according
to .the confession of their own leaders, did
not exceed 80, and their progress com-
mencing in Dirty Lane, had been terminated
in Cutpurse Row. They had not dared to
approach any of the principal parts of the
town, and, as to the idea of their ever
marching to the attack of the Castle, it
really was akbgether ridiculous. This ap-
peared by t'e conduct of their principal
leader. When he found the contemptible
state, of his followers, either in point of
numbers or of discipline, he had take',his


road down a street leading to the country,
where he threw off his rebel uniform, re-
gardless of the, fate of his deluded partners'
in rebellion. Much stress was laid by those&
who blamed the conduct of ministers, on
the circumstance that they were not aware
of the existence of the rebel magazine in
the heart of Dublin. True it was, that
this circumstance had not been-discovered
previous to the insurrection of the 23d of_
July. Ministers, however, were apprised, that
a rising was intended on that day, and such
precautions were adopted, as left Dubliri
fully protected from all danger. True it
was, that a respected magistrate had fallen
a sacrifice to the fury of the rebels ; but
this atrocity was, in no degree whatever,
imputable to the negligence of minister'.
From certain circumstances, that nobleman
had heard of an intended insurrection iti
Dublin, and he was in consequence induced
to proceed to town at a late hour. Perhaps
it would have been more prudent if he had
not thofight of entering Dublin that night-
or at least that he had not entered it at that
particular part of the town, where individu-
als ready for acts of atrocities could always
be without difficulty collected. Much ai
the atrocity was to be lamented, it was il
no degree brought on by the misconduct of "
the Irish government. But, to returfi mord
directly to the question before the home,
though the hon. member appeared to con-.
sider it but of secondary importance. It,
was argued, that it was contrary to practice,
to pass such a bill without previous infor-
mation. He begged leave to real the ho-
nourable member's recollection to the case
of 1801, when it was passed without any
detailed information being communicated.
He wished to ask the hon. member, if ha
felt himself authorised, without further in-
formation, to give his negative to the bill ?
He wished to ask, if he would insist on'delay,
even at the risk of leaving the government
destitute of powers adequate to meet any
emergency which might occur ? As 'to the
general charge against ministers for with-
holding information ; this was a question
quite different from the motion for the re-
newal of the bill.- If the hon. gent. had
any distinct' charge to make against the
government of Ireland; if he could produced
any facts to prove that they had been de-
ficient in foresight and energy, he should
at all times be-ready to meet and to repel
that charge. As far as he knew any thing
of the proceedings of the Irish government,
there was no deficiency of precautions.
These precautions were carried to an extent
capable of defeating, not the abortive at..
SRra ".






PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 5.-Trish Marlial Law Bill,


11624


tempt of the 23d of July alone, but a force-
of even twenty times the amount, led on
with talents, system and consistency of a
$ar superior nature.
Colonel Cratfurd was adverse to the re-
newal of the bill without obtaining some in-
formation of its necessity, of which there
was at present nothing, before the house.
The sum of this information, if it could
be called such, was, that the rebellion was
suppressed, and that expectations of the
continuance of tranquillity were entertained.
This, surely, was a very strange kind of
Infortbation to offer to the house, 'as an in-
ducement to pass a bill, which could not be
characterized as any other, than a measure
of severity. The extraordinary negligence
of the government of Ireland had been the
subject of animadversion this evening, and
with the sentiments expressed by his right
hon. friend wbe began the discussion, he
most heartily concurred. The hon. secretary
of state had endeavoured to shew that such
charges were unfounded, and he had rested
*bis argument chiefly on the strength of the
garrison; and the facility with which the re-
bellion had been suppressed. But how did
this representation accord with facts, at least
with representatiods- which had been given
as such to the world. He had been in-
formed, that in the evening on which the in-
surrection burst forth, the lord lieutenant
had gone quietly to his country house as if
no danger had been apprehended.. Thelord
chiefjustice of the King's Bench, though ne-
cessarilyin the confidence of government,was
not at all aware of any insurrection, till the
afternoon of the very day on which it exhi-
bited itself in acts of public atrocity. But,
this evening the right hon. the secretary of
state had' in his place declared, that govern-
.nent were aware of the projected, insur.
reaction that very day. How this declaration
was consistent with the statement now
Spade, he professed himself unable to dis-
cover. Credit was taken for the accurate
i, formation of ministers respecting the de-
signs of the rebels, but it was admitted that
the existence of their powder magazine was
a profound secret. It certainly could not be
pretended that the government, ignorant of
this very important piece of information,
couldbe'ablc to form an estimate, at least a
correctt one, of the force sufficient for the
preservation of the tranquillity of the capi-
tal. 'ut, still, minister were indignant at
any, charge of negligence or want of suffi-
4i0ntly accurate information. How far they
-were entitled to be so, he left it for the
3ipuse, to decide. ,He had been informed of
ui other circumsLtane,' whigh was certainly
. -. ..


no evidence of the foresight or information
of the Irish government. It was very ge-
nerally reported, that, so accurately were
ministers informed of the intended -rising
of the rebels on the 23d of July, the regi-
ments forming the garrison were provided
with only three rounds of ball cartridge,
and the yeomanry corps could not get a
supply till after an interval of two hours !
He had heard also a report,-which if true,
still more forcibly demonstrated the shame-
ful ignorance of the Irish government re-
specting the designs of the rebels. It was
roundly asserted, that, with the knowledge
on the part of ministers of the intended
rising on the evening of the 23d, a certain
proportion from each company of the regi-
ments forming the garrison, had a few days,
before been allowed to go to the country to
assist in different species of work. Nothing
could, in his opinion, more strongly discover
a want of foresight ; yet ,ministers took fire
at the idea of the conduct of their colleagues
in Ireland being censured for a flagrant
deficiency of vigilance or talent.-So far was
he from agreeing with those who thought
that this was not the time for discussing the.
affairs of Ireland, that he, could not help
lamenting the fact, that not a single ex-
pression had dropped from ministers, expres-
sive of their intention to adopt any measure
for the conciliation of the unfortunate in-
habitants of that country. The expression
in his Majesty's speech, alluding to the
contrast between their situation and the
situation of nations under the dominion of
France, afforded him, and he was sure it
would afford the inhabitants.of Ireland,- no
great degree of satisfaction. He had hoped
for acts of leniency,, instead of thie renewal
of measures of rigour, which could only
keep alive feelings of animosity, instead of
inducing the. Irish people to return to that
cordial allegiance, which could alone render
them the bulwarks of the empire. The
hon. gent. sat down with saying, that he
should give his vote against the bill, unless
further information of its necessity were
produced.
Mr. Francis said, that he could not let a
measure of such great importance pass with-
out stating his opinion of it. If his Ma-
jesty's ministers have grounds sufficient to
support so strong an act argaint a great
portion of onr fellow-subjecfs in Ireland,
and so alarming' to every other part of the
empire, they ought to state those grounds
to Parliament. In fact, we are called upon"
to proceed,' without evidence, in a manner
which nothing but the clearest evidehiee can
justify; that is, to put the kingdom of Jre4'






1625) PARL DEBATES, DEC. 5.-

land under martial law. I do not mean,
said the hon. gent., to bring any charge
against the government of lrelhnd., Until
I know the contrary to be true, I must pre-
sume, that they have furnished his Majesty's
ministers with facts and proofs adequate to
the measure now recommended. What I
complain of is, that ministers have not com-
municated those facts and that evidence, nor
even the smallest part of it to the House of
Commons. Necessity, I know, supersedes
all argument. Let the case be ever so
doubtful or questionable, or even criminal,
it may find a justification in extreme ne-
cessity: but then, I say, prove it. You
have no right to avail yourself of the plea
until you have established the fact. All the
evidence I have seen or heard of goes in the
opposite direction. The only parliamentary
document on this subject that has been laid
before the house, is that passage in his Ma-
jesty's speech which describes, in terms of,
the highest satisfaction, a general change
in the disposition of his deluded subjects in
Ireland, and his gracious confidence in the
corrected judgment of, those who had been
misled. Out of doors, and even within these
few days, I have heard no other hlnguage
among persons most disposed to favour the
present government. But, when I come
into this house, I find the case totally re-
versed. The measure nqtw proposed indi-
cates that Ireland is in such a state, and the
occasion so pressing, that nothing less than
extreme courses can save it.-If the case be
as violent as the remedy supposes, undoubt-
edly his Majesty's ministers have a right to
the remedy. If not, they call upon us to
trust them with a dangerous power, which
is not wanted, and by the very act of calling
for it, run the risk of doing mischief in other
senses, and counteracting their, own pur-
pose. By empowering the government of
Ireland to proclaim martial law, they alienate
the affections of the people whom they
* ought to conciliate, and, in effect, they in-
vite and encourage the enemy to invade the
empire in th t quarter. For what does the
proclamation of martial law in effect say to
Buonapart6 and to all the world, but that
in Ireland we are vulnerable, and that there
he may invade us with a certainty of co-
operation, and a reasonable prospect of suc-
cess ?
' Lord Castlereagh rose to reply to the two
last speakers. He began by averting to the
charge of want of proper' attention being
.paid by ministers, or the house, to the situ-
ation of Ireland. He really was not aware
on what grounds it was that such a charge
Was adduced. If it was because subjects'of a


-Irish Martial Law Bill.


delicate nature were avoided, and topics of
discussion which could only be productive of
dissention among a people too often hurried
away by their feelings, instead of being
guided by their cooler judgment, were ab-
stained from, that the charge of inattention -
to Irish affairs and Irish interests were sup-
ported, he must take the earliest opportunity
of protesting against such a doctrine. If
any member conceived that any practicable
measure could be brought forward for the ad-
vantage of Ireland, or any other part ofthe em-
pire, it was his bounden duty to submit such a
measure to the consideration of the house,
and it would then be for the wisdom of 'the
legislature to decide on its expediency or its
policy. Neglect was not, however, to be
imputed to ministers, because they did not
feel it their duty to bring circumstances be-
fore parliament, to the removal of which
they did not imagine any immediate mea-
sures to be applicable. Because government
did not see the policy of originating some of
those measures, which to some hon. mem-
bers might appear expedient and salutary,
that surely was no argument to prove that
the essential interests of Ireland, as far as
ministers understood them, were for a single
moment overlooked. It would not be ar-
gued, that, because comparative unanimity
at present prevailed, when the affairs ofIre-
land were considered, that there was, on the
part, of the. house, or ministers, any negli-
gence or inattention to,a subject which all
admitted to be deeply interesting and im-
portant. It was not presuming too much
to infer, that this unanimity on this subject,,
arose from a conviction of the indisputable
and imperious necessity of the measures
which ministers proposed. He was sure
that his right hon. friend did not hold such
an opinion. He possessed an understanding
too great, and feelings too liberal, to allow
him to entertain such an idea for a moment.
As tothe facts adduced by the lion. ofcer,
he was ready at all times to meet an inves-
tigation, and satisfactorily to vindicate the
conduct of the government of Ireland. If
there was any thing in their conduct at all
deserving of censure, let it be fairly stated,
and let them be candidly allowed to, pro-
duce their defence. He took this opportu-
nity, however, ofdeprecating the discussion
of this important subject by a side wind.
Let facts be fully and honourably brought
forward, and not frittered away and dis-
torted. Let the whole conduct of the go-
vernment of Ireland be considered, com-
bined, and arranged in all its bearings and
relations, and then lh; should be ready to
prove, that, instead of eensure, it was deo


[l826






1627] PARL. DEBATES, DEC.

serving of approbation; instead of a charge
of weakness, a confidence of foresight and
energy. He had made these observations
with the view. of preventing an idea from
going abroad, that assertions made with the
greatest confidence were true, merely be-
couse they might sometimes happen to pass
uncontradicted. Leaving these extraneous
matters out of further consideration, the
house had only to consider the question of
the. necessity of the renewal of the bill.-
The speech of his right hon. friend did not
seem to turn so much on this question as on
the conduct of the Irish government, a sub-
ject which ws, clearly uppermost in his
hon. friend's mind. He begged the attention
of the house while he stated what had been the
grounds of the previous renewal of the bill.
t its first introduction it was supported on
thl groundof the notoriety of the rebellion,
and on that its necessity was admitted. It
was renewed in 1799, when, though the
'rebellion was put down, there were partial
insurrections in different parts of the conn-
try. At that period he allowed that two
reports of a secret committee had been ad-
duced, to prove the necessity of the mea-
sure. He must, however, now be permit-
ted to remark, that the expediency of such
%reports depended a good deal on circum-
stances. This was a mode of presenting in-
formation to the legislature and the public,
often highly advantageous. Occasions might
occur, however, when to resort to it would
be highly impolitic, and even dangerous.
In such circumstances he thought that mi-
nisters now were placed, as to the propriety
of -presenting such information as .the re-
port of a secret committee would afford, It
would be recollected that government was,
.even at this moment, actively, and he was
happy to add, successfully employed in
tracing out even the remotest ramifications
pf the insurrection. While such inquiries
were Joing forward, it would be a matter
ofpeculia.r difficulty to frame such a report as
would not disclose facts, the disclosure of
which would not defeat the views of the go.
vernment, and, at the same time, prove
.satisfactory to the legislature and the coun-
try. If a report were prematurely brought
forward, government might be interrtipted
in its exertions to trace out the ramifications
of rebellion. On the other hand, if the
report was not detailed in its nature, it
could not afford any criterion for judging
of the necessity of a legislative measure,
originating out of circumstances of peculiar
emergency. To avoid the necessity of such
a dilemma, it became, necessary to resort to
certain general principles, which while they


5.- Irish Martial Law Bl [1628

were consistent with the greatest attachment
to the constitution, were not incompatible
with the idea of investing the executive
government with extraordinary powers, ap-
plicable to an extraordinary contingent crisis.
He would not deny that the bill now to be
renewed, had never formerly been renewed
where there was less actual or visible dan-
ger. He had no hesitation in applying this
observation to all the periods of the renewal
of the bill from the time of its original in-
troduction. On this part of the subject,
the noble lord took a review of the various
renewals of the bill.- Though, however, he
admitted that there was less visible danger,
though hewas happy to be able to state with
truth, that the cause of loyalty had received
a vast augmentation, while the numbers of
the disaffected had materially decreased;
still, however, there were traitors and ma-
lignant spirits 'in Ireland, bent on projects
of the most atrocious nature. It was to
counteract their views, it was to defeat their-
designs,, that he thought the bill, as a wise
measure of precautionary power, both expe-
dient and politic. There was one other cir-
cumstance which materially strengthened
his argument on this subject. He meant to
allude to the menaced invasion of the ene-
my. In former times and in former wars
invasion had been often threatened, and
perhaps at a certain period of the late war
that threat was, t% a certain degree, formi-
dable. In no former period, however, had
the threat of invasion assumed the same de-
gree of consistency, and never had we to
encounter an enemy at once so malignant,
and so well prepared for carrying his hostile
designs into'effect. -He had already adverted
to the improved state of Ireland ; but past
experience demonstrated the imprudence of
too flattering expectations of the continu-
ance of 'this spirit. He wished in no case
to depart from constitutional principles,
where they could be adhered to with safety;
but the safety of the state was a considera-
tion paramount to every other idea. This
safety could best be secured by.the renewal
of the bill. The liberties of the people
were as far as possible in every case to be
respected; and it was his decided opinion
that the renewal of the bill, while it was-
the most consistent with liberty, was the
best pledge for the continuance of tran-
quillity.-With respect to the observation
made by the hon. gent. (Mr. Francis), that"
the adoption of the present measure would
tend to inspirit Buonapart6 to make an at-
tempt upon Ireland, as holding out to him
the prospect of co-operation in that quar-
ter, he entertained no dread on that subjeet






1 PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 5.-IrishMartial Law Bill.


He was convinced, that a consciousness in
the mind of that man of the 'odium which
uniformly accompanied his footsteps, would
point out to him the futility of such an ex-
pectation. The inhabitants of Ireland,
when they joined their fate with Great-
Britain, and he among the rest, anticipated
the blessings which would result from that
connection ; they were convinced that they
enjoyed more happiness than even when
they had a legislature of their own. They
rested with firm confidence on the vigour
of this assembly, and all the loyal inhabi-
tants of Ireland were convinced that it had
acted noblyby them.
Colonel Craufurd, in explanation, stated,
that his charge, as to the want of prepara-
tion on the part of the Irish government.at
the breaking out of'the insurrection in"
Dublin, was, that the military were pro-
vided only with three rounds of ammuni-
tion, and that the yeomanry had none at
all for the space of two hours,
Mr. Pole did not wish to trouble the
house with any observations on the pre-ent
question He only meant to set the hon.
gent. who had just sat down, right as to
the circumstance which he had last men-
tioned. The hon, gent. had attempted to
deceive the house and the public. The
fact was, that, previous to the 23d of
July, all the troops in Ireland had been
provided with 60 rounds of ammunition
each. The Castle of Dublin was no d6p6t
for military stores, but there had been
lodged -there 800o rounds, for serving such
regiments ai might have occasion toapply,
and, on the first application, ample provi-
sion was made; and within less than two
hours, more ammunition was supplied than
was required to be used during the whole
course of the rebellion. He stated this
from his own personal knowledge, and
pledged himself to the truth of it. He had
been employed by the master of the ord-
nance to make the inquiry, who had been
alarmed by a report similar to that stated
by the hen. gent.
Colonel Crautfurd called upon the hon.
gent. to say, whether it was parliamentary
language, or language which ought to be
used by one gentleman to another in that
house, to accuse him of an attempt to de-
ceive the house or the public ?
Mr. Pole explained that he had stated,
'that the hon. Colonel had deceived the
house-he himself bding deceived.
Mr. Wiidbam said, it did not seem to
him that. the hon. gent. (Mr. Pole) had meat
the charge bf his. hon. friend (Colonel
Craulurd who didi not sjy, that there was


not ammunition here and there, but spoke
respecting the ammunition in the cartouch
boxes of the soldiers. That part of the -
remark had not been answered. When
he recurred to the observations of the noble
lord, he had not so much to state argument .
on the one side, as to speak of the want of
them on the other. They were now about
to renew martial law in Ireland, without
having heard one single word to justify the
measure. To vote the re-establishment of
martial law seemed to be so much a matter *
of course, that it required no argument to
support it. They stopped the constitution
as a miller would stop a wind or a water-
mill, and with as little consideration. The
constitution was stopt and set a going, was
commanded to march or to halt, with as
little ceremony as a colonel would use to-
wards-his battalion. He would not'say
this was wrong, but he wanted to know
why it was right. It had been said that
notoriety had been considered 'a good
ground for voting a measure of this nature ;
this might be very true when rebellion was
at the doors of those -who voted such a mea-
sure, but no such reason existed now, and
no other was given for it. They had been
told of a 'danger which was at present invi-
sible; this put him in mind of a dancer,
who was described as turning round so-
quick, that he could not be seen to turn ;-
which led somebody to observe, that per-
haps he did not- turn round at all; so
as to this invisible danger : people might
suspect, as nothing could be seen, that
there was, perhaps, no danger at all. In
the present instance, however, the'difficulty
was greater. He might discover from the
msre light of nature, for to that he was
left, the necessity of the present measure ;
but how was he to collect it from what
ministers said ? The whole of the infe-
rence that was to be drawn from their re-
presentations discountenanced the measure.
He wished that. ministers would tell them.,
when they should have made up their minds
upon the subject, whether the late insur-
rection was really a contemptible riot; a
mere effervescence of the moment, anid
confined to the spot on which' it originated,
or whether it spread to greater extent,
and had taken deep root in the country'?
He wished that the hon. gentlemen on
the other side of the house. would deal
fairly with them in that respect, and
not, as at present, play fast and loose ;.
seeking to have the benefit of suppositions-
both ot which could not be true, like the
student at one of the universities, who,
upon being asked whether the sui weit -


i6MI1






PARL. DtBATES, Dac. 5.-IzA. Mlariiat -Low AIM. [13


round the earth, or the earth round the sun,
answered, sometimes one and sometimes
the other. S;a in the present case, some-
times ministers said the insurrection was a
contemptible riot ; at others, it was of such
magnitude as to require a martial law bill.
How could the house act ? .If they voted
for the bill, they must vote for it in spite
of the arguments of 'the ministers who su'p-
ported it, and whose description of the
event, which made the basis of their mea-
sure, was at one time a figure of stature to
reach the skies, and at another, shrunk,
like the spirits in Pandemonium, to a
pigmy size hardly capable of being dis-
cerned. The vigour of the measure might,
according to the opinion of a noble lord
(Lord Castlereagh), be a recommendation,
and serve better to fulfil that assurance,
which he mentioned himself to have given
(and which no one could deny, was fully
made good in the present instance), viz.
that there would be no want of vigorous
legislation in respect to the affairs of Ire-
land. But whatever might be said of the
vigour of this proceeding, which, without
a moment's consideration or a particle of
evidence, put a greatportion of the empire
out of the protection of the constitution,
he was afraid that much would not be said,
or'felt, of its kindness. It would be no
great. proof, either of our respect or sym-
.- pathy for the people of Ireland, no good
illustration of the advantages of the union,
that we should be willing to exclude them
for the time from the constitution, and put
them'under martial law, in circumstances
of proof, in which no man would have
ventured to hint at such a thing in respect
to this country. Ministers might perhaps
be satisfied with the panegyrics bestowed
on.these measures ; great powers must be
applied to great occasions, and on this
ground the principle of arbitrary power
night do good : despotism was neither good
nor bad in itself, and ifatgels were always
to rule, there would be no objection to it ;
but as this could not be the case, men
were content to forego the advantages
.which a more direct and arbitrary use of
power might. confer, and to take up with
the safer and slower operation of laws and
free government s. In these measures they
must look to the ministers who proposed.
them, and who were not entitled to con-
fidence at all. If the statements of mipis-
ters were to be taken, these measures were
aot necessary. Here let the house recol-
lect what took place in last July. Previous
to the insurrection, they were told by mi-
Wnisters that.Ireland was in a continual atate


of improvement, and it was to be inferred,
that every danger ought to be thrown oft
their minds. Had any one, at, that time,
proposed a martial law bill, what would have
been thought of his conductt. Yet, why not ?
What had happened since, to change the
determination of the house, or to render that
,necessary which was not necessary at the
period above-mentioned ? Up to the moment
of the 23d of July, the house had been told
that all was tranquil in Ireland, and the
country in a state of daily improvement. A
few days subsequent to that date, news ar-
rives, that an insurrection had broken out;
that the lord chief justice had been murder-
ed, and ihe capital been within an ace of
being taken. In the first paroxysm of their
fears, ministers speak out, describe the pro-
ceeding as a dangerous rebellion, and call
for an instant suspension of 'the habeas cor-
pus, and for a martial law bill. As neither
of these measures were wanted, for any ob-
ject at that moment depending, as one ofthem
was a mere measure of general precaution, and
the other (the martial law bill) could not be
applied to the trials of those already appre-
hended, with respect to all of whom, it was
an ex post facto law, there seemed to be no
reason, why, according to the ordinary prac-.
tice of Parliament, the delay of a day should
not be allowed for deliberation; a delay
which would be nothing with respect to
the measure, but was a great deal with re-
spect to the better understanding the event,
on which the measure was to be founded.
On some subjects, an additional four-and-
twenty hours could add not4iing to our
knowledge, nor be expected to make much,
change in our opinion. On the subject of
the late peace, for instance, or of the French
revolution, a man was not likely to think
at the end of any four-and-twenty hours
now taken, differently from what he had
done at the beginning. It would, be use.
less therefore to delay a decision, with a
view to what such an interval might pro-.
duce. But, in the present case, four-and-
twenty hours was nearly equal to the whole
period that the event had been known to
us, an event too, on which the letters of
every post, were giving us further and bet-
ter information. On these ideas he had
urged, that after an assurance to his Ma-
jesty, of the determination of the house to
support his Majesty against all dangers, and
to adopt whatever measures should be ne-
cessary for that purpose, they should have
paused till the next day, to determine what
those measures ought to be. This proposal
was over-ruled, and he was treated as little
less than a person disaffected, who, before


'[1p2






?AftL. DEPAVTES, DREc." S.--4risls Narliai Ldw Psill. 1,


a bill was passed, such as the martial- law bill,
could suggest the propriety of a moment's
delay, till his Majesty's ministers should
have settled in their own minds, whether the
event in question was a serious rebellion,
or only an accidental riot. The decision
was now made for an accidental riot. And
it was declared, that from some causes or
other, from the security necessarily exer-
cised, and which, it seems, have had the ef-
fect, not only of intimidating and cutting
off the usual effects of severity, but even of
conciliating the disaffected, Ireland was in
a better state than ever, less filled with a
disposition to mischief, and,, wiih better
means of resisting, should any be attempted.
The consequence of all this would seem to
be, that a suspension of the habeas corpus,
and a martial law bill, which were not
necessary before the 23d of July, must be
still further from being necessary now. And
this inference was further confirmed, by the
circumstance so much insisted upon by mi-
nYisters, that the powers granted at the pe-
riod alluded to, had never been acted upon,
but in one instance. He was the farthest
from meaning to contend, that a power not
acted .upon, and a power not possessed,
were one and the same thing; or, that a
power known to be possessed, might not
produce great effects, even though it should
never be called forth into action. But, at
least, it must be admitted, that a power so
circumstanced, that is to say, which in the
course of many months had never been
wanted, or never used, was not one, which
required such hasty proceedings, as those
which took place at the period above referred
to, or which could claim to be renewed,
without one single fact or argument adduced
to shew that it was necessary. If no facts or
arguments were adduced, as little could it be
said, that the house had any authority to act
upon. The authority, if any, must be that
of his Majesty's ministers; and what must
their authority be held to be, whose total
ignorance or criminal neglect had exposed
the capital of part of the empire to be within
an ace of being surprised, (he was glad to
repeat the expression) at a moment when
they were preaching every where the tran'
quil state of the country. This -topic, the
hon. gentleman wished to get rid of, by a
pew kind of doctrine, namely, that nothing
should be said of the conduct of ministers,
unless produced in the shape of a distinct
charge. He had no objection to distinct
chargess wherever the magnitude of the ob-
ject, the circumstances of the case, and the
time of: the house would admit of them;
which latter consideration along might, in
VOL. IV.


the multitude of charges liable to,be. madT.
against the hon. gentlemen, be a reason-
against that course. But however this might
be, it. would be a wwhimsical rule to ,)y.
down, that unless these- charges, or intif
these charges were brought, n6 observation$
were to be made upon the conduct of men.
in public stations, even where their conduct
furnished, as in the case before them,, at
argument essentially interwoven with tho
subject in discussion. The authority of mi,
nisters constituted, in the present instance,
all the public and parliamentary grounds
which the house had to stand upon. It was
of some consequence, therefore, to ascertain
what that authority was; and no single in-
stance could better illustrate it, than that,
which was afforded by the 23d of July. -Ig.
was amazed at the account which govyern-
ment had finally resolved to give.of that
transaction. They had to chuse betweeg-
neglect and surprise. If they knew nothing
of what was coming on, if they were really
in the opinions, which they thought.proper,
to profess, that all was tranquil in Ireland,
and nothing meditating against the gqvernp-
ment, then they were surprised, and must
take the shame which belongs to'that con-
fession. If, on the contrary, they chose to
disclaim this ignorance of the state of the
country, and this want of information as to
what was passing under their noses, therk
they must confess a degree of neglect, not
merely disgraceful, but such as was in the
strictest sense criminal To his utter asto'.
nihment they made their election- for. thl
neglect. Having the choice of two inter .
pretations, being returned, 4s it were, for two
places, the one which thay chose, the onefor
which they finally took their seat, was that
which put; them in the situation of declaring,
that knowing the mischief to be coming on,
knowing that an insurrection was likely to
take place, they calmly and advisedly suffer-
ed it to take its course, neglecting those pre<
cautions, which would have saved the life of
the chief justice, and have put the city its
a state of perfect security; .instead of leaving
it, as they did, to be preserved by the merest
chance from falling into the-hands of the
Rebels. This account of the transaction, as
given by tlhe hon. gentleman, was striking
in the first instance, from the utter impos-
sibility of reconciling it with, known and ac-
knowledged facts. -Jt was "not very easy to,
understand, how that could he otherwise than
a surprise, which found the-lord mayor with-
out notice; the"commander in chiet without
instructions, at least, without permisgiir
freely to act upon- his instructions; the
troops, in part, without ammunition-3 ajd
'*'S s .






PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 5.-Irisb Mdrtial Law Bill.,


the lord lieutenant absent from .the castle.
H twass ~prepared to say, that much of the
ianniunition- supplied to the yeomanry (troops
thal had their'full share in what was done)
wai .not brought to them till after the action
had"'comrinenced, and when there was the
rfibsf imminent risk, that both the ammuni-
i'do itself, as well as those who escorted -it,
wduld have been intercepted by the rebels..
If this was not a surprise, he should be glad
to know, what in the ministerial vocabulary
was to be so denominated. But the account
was not less singular, if-adopted by the hon.
gentleman, on any principle of choice. On
*hat possible supposition was the lord lieu-
tenant's absence from the castle to be ac-
counted for, if not on that of surprise, and
6f his being ignorant of the explosion which
was about to take place ? IWhat! the lord
lieutenant absent at his country house, at a
dioment when he knew that an insurrection
Was likely to break out in the city! And
this the statement made by his friends! He
Could 'only say, in the words of Hamlet,
"'I would not hear thine enemy say so.' He
would-not have so shocked the ears of a right
bon. gentleman opposite to him (Mr. Yorke)
or have so isolated his own convictions, as to
have advanced an opinion, pregnant with
such injurious reflexions, to the noble lord
at the head of the Irish government. 'But,
in whatever way the fact was to be accounted
for, to whichever change the government
would choose to plead guilty, their authority
upon -the subject of Irish affairs was at an
end. If the measure proposed was to be
- adopted, it must be, not in consequence of
the-representations made by government, but
in spite of them; They had described the
proceedings of the 23d of July as a con-
temptible riot,: that had declared the state of
the country to have been improved by those
proceedings, instead of being made worse.
The best plea which they could urge, and
one certainly which they would be able to
make out, was, that they-knew nothing of
the matter. Yet, in this state of things, the
house was called upon to vote a martial law
bill, without a single' proof adduced of the
necessity of it,- and upon grounds too that.
would equally serve for any other time as
welU as the present. For if this measure was
to be, as a noble lordhad declared, precau-
tionary, and that that precaution was to be'
founded upon the mere fact of an insurrec-
tion having broken out, this fact would con-
tinue to whenever it could be coupled with a war,
might be made the foundation of a measure
such: as was then proposed, It was impos-
sgle to say, how long, according to the pre-


sent mode of reasoning, its influence in that
respect might last.-Upon the whole, the'
measure as now proposed, was utterly with-
out foundation to stand on. What it might
be in itself, was not so properly the object of
inquiry. He could sery well conceive,
judging from views the very reverie of those
commonly held out by the lion: gentlemen,
that the course proposed, desperate as it was,
might be necessary. He was afraid, at least,
in so critical a case, to say that it was not so.
Contrary, therefore, to the general rule, which
would direct in every case, and still more in
one like the present, the rejection of every
measure, of which no strong reason had been
urged for the support, he should acquiesce
in the one now proposed, protesting against
the manner in which it had been brought for-
ward, and begging to have it understood,
that so far as he might concur in it, it was
for reasons wholly different from tho'e which
could be derived from the language or con-
duct of the hon. gentlemen.
The Chancellor of the Exchq quer.-Sir;
in the observations which I feel it my duty
to offer to the house, it is mty intention tb
follow the example set me by my noble
friend near me (lord Castlereagh) and to
sever the consideration of the conduct of the
Irish government, respecting the insurrection
of the 23d of July, from the merits of the.
measure now before the house ; and to ma'e
that conduct, whatever it may have been, the
subject of a distinct charge. However, as it
has been, in this instance, brought into view,
I think it necessary most distinctly to declare
my opinion, that the proceedings of the high
characters, to whom the management of Irish
affairs are entrusted, will be found to have
been, in the instance alluded to, perfectly jus-
tifiable; that they acted with the most laud-
able judgment that they had procured full
information of the plan of the insurrection,-
and had provided means amply adequate to
defeat its object. That the lord lieutenant,
after having taken every necessary precau-
tion, thought proper to retire to his seat in.
the Phcenix-park, I am ready to admit ; but
that such retirement betrayed any degree of
inattention to the wants or security of the
state and the city of Dublin, I do most de-
cidedly contradict,, because I am satisfied,
that every measure was taken, that the most
deliberate investigation, and the most active
vigilance could suggest. The civil power
was prepared, and the army, as was seen by
the result of the insurrection, was -in a com-
plete state of readiness. The superintendent
magistrate of Dublin, was, at an early period
,of the day .on which the insurrection took
place, apprised by the Irish government, that


[164




,-, -i -


i.637] PAlL. DEBATES, DEc. '5.-Irii'Marlila Lhiv Bll, 16138
such an event was expected, and the police -of consistency. When the martial law bill
of Dublin 'was in :consequence prepared. was 'continued immediately after the union,
The right hon. gentleman who has just sat' no inquiry such as that now demanded took
.down' is, therefore, unfounded, in the asser- place. Parliament acceded to the.bill ther- -
tien, that no communication whatever was .on the assurance of the representatives-of
'made.of the design of the rebels to the civil Ireland, that it was proper, and& necessary..
power, until the very moment the rebellion The right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) was
broke-out. The lord-lieutenantof -Ireland then inoffice, and joined in resisting the pro-
having taken every proper step of preparation position of inquiry, and indeed one's surprise
for th.e public security, there was one other at his present recommendations is aggravated
important object to which it was the duty of by the recollection of the arguments he then-
jis excellency to attend, namely, to guard employed to justify his opposition to inquiry;
against popular alarm, by avoiding any osten- arguments founded entirely on the known
tatiops proceeding that might betray exag- circumstances of the times and of the Irish
geri'ated fear; fir such a conduct, he must nation ; and can the right hon. gent. I will
be av;',c, would tend to encourage the ask, pretend to maintain, that those circum-
re~els, by inducing them to think more stances were by any means so strong as th" '
, .highly of their own powers, 'and perhaps to present time offered, a time when in asion
throw the city of Dublin into a state of con- is impending and disaffection is actually ex'-
sternation that might weaken their power, isting in Ireland ? Why then, in such-a
pad dimminkh their competency to resist the state of our affairs, should the right hon-
danger. Such effects would have very pro- gent. persist in arguing, that no such measure
bably arisen, had the lord lieutenant declined as that which he himself supported upon
going, according to his usual habit, to. his much less ground of necessity, ought to be
seat,in the park. I, therefore, am warranted introduced to the hou-e without the prcli*
in contending, that it was wise in. the lord minary ofacommittee of inquiry ? In July,
lieutenant to return to his country house, the house assented to the enactment of this
and not to remain in the metropolis, which law, upon the authority of a message from-
would have given rise to reports and conjec- the throne, and the lord-lieutenant's p-ocla-
tures, dangerous in their: nature and conse- mation respecting the rebellion, whi-h re-
quences. But having made these statements, ferred to the massacre of Lord Kilwarden:
in answer to the assertions of the right hon. Since then the details of the several- trials
gentleman, I must once more remark, that had furnished the house and the'country'
they,have no connexion whatever with the with the most satisfactory evidence of the
question before the house, which is simply necessity of the proceedings. But the hpn'
this, whether it is expedient to. continue the gent. (Mr. Elliot) argued as if no rebel-
act under consideration without the preli- lion or disaffection of any magnitude, suf-
minary proceeding of p;i inquiry before a ficient to justify the grant of 'such extra.
committee, as .to the necessity which calls ordinary powers to the Irish government, did
for it.' To the appointment of such a corn- really exist, because the Irish attorney gene
mittee, I must object, because the necessity ral thought proper, in the course of his ad-
'is obvious, and because the same measure of dress to the jury on a particular trial, to
precaution, which this bill proposes, has, in describe the insurrection of ihe 23d of July
many instances, been adopted without any as the desperate effort of a few turbulent
previous inquiry, It was so on the first sus- men : but it cannot -be admitted' that .
pension of the habeas corpus act, at the corn- such a description from any man, however
mencement of the last war, and on several respectable, should exclude all reference to
other occasions, which must be within the the nature of the evidence. If such a. doc4
recollection of the hon. gentleman en the trine were to obtain credit, it would.lead to
other side, and in most of which, the right conclusions at once absurd and mischievous,
hon, gentleman, who last addressed the If such language as that of the hon geitie-
house, took a very active part; and his hon. men respecting the preference of the autho-
friend,.'sho sat near him (Mr. Elliot) was rity of the attorney general's statement on.
not less active, in similar cases, as a member the occasion alluded to, that of the wit-.
of the Irish parliament. From such gentle- nesses examined on the several trials, was
men, therefore, the loud call for inquiry into used by the judge on any of these trials : if,'
the grounds of necessity which pressed for for instance, his lordship were to ?ay to the'
this measure, which are notorious, and jury, f' You are to attend to and foiri your'
certainly. much stronger,' than at any of the judgment on the address of the a.ttrney-
tarious periods when a like proceeding was general, putting entirely out of your, niinds
resoaed to, comes with a very ill,grace, and the statements o the evidence," what, 1
Must citee some. astonishment on the score Ss 2 Z
Till






PARL. DEBATES, DEe. .5.--,risb Martial Law till.


beg to know from the honorable gentle-
rmen.themselves, would be their sentiments
.bpon such a singular recommendation from
the bench.?. And yet their language in the
eourse of the debate was of precisely a
similar import. I make these observations
Smerely to shew the sort of argument which
those hon. gentlemen are apt to use, when
it suits their pleasure to oppose the propo-
sitions of his majesty's ministers. With
respect to the expression in his Majesty's
speech, that tranquillity is happily restored
in Ireland, I will say, that the justice of
that statement is perfectly maintainable,
without impairing in any degree, the force
of.the arguments now :relied on for the re-
enactment of the measure under discussion.
It is known that the rebellion was put down,
that its leaders and the greater part of its
principal agents have been brought to jus-
tice, and that although much of disaffec-
,tion is understood to pervade the Irish nation,
yet tranquillity nevertheless exists; but is
slot the existence of that tranquillity to be se-
cured by precisely the same means to which
t-*e country was indebted for its attainment,
y 'the precautionary measures which formed
the. subject.of the present debate ? And sure-
ly it is not unfair or irrational to say, that
these measure have contributed a large share
in restoring peace to Ireland, and that they
Will materially, tend to preserve that peace
wre have the strongest' reasons to believe.
t~tese is nothing in his Majesty's speech
that implies an opinion that disaffection did
tfot exist in Ireland ; or that it was not ne-
c'essary to invest the Irish government with
the extraordinary powers of the bill before
the house ; on the contrary, such powers
were deemed.essentially necessary, to enable
that government effectually to repel an in-
vading enemy,. and to. repress domestic trea-
son. In announcing the restoration of tran-
quillity in Ireland, it was very natural for
the paternal mind of his Majesty to 'feel,
and benevolently to express a hope that, not-
-withstanding the disaffection that unhappily
prevailed, his deluded subjects would return
to their allegiance ; and this hope was, in a
greatdegree, justified by the improvement
which was known to have taken place in the
public mind in Ireland ;. but this improve-
-.ent was not such as to induce ministers to
believe that it would as yet be safe to relax
.1he powers of the Irish government, for I
m still of opinion that a much greater share
f: disaffectiponat present exists in Ireland,
athen, ever did in this country at any of the
varions. periods when precautionary mea-
.aP.rs. similar to that under debate,. were
ery. property, citacted agad particularly du-


,.- .


ring the right hon. gentlembh's connexioti
with the cabinet. That nothing has beeh
conveyed by his Majesty's speech, so often
referred to, and so unjustlycommented upon,
and that nothing has in any manner come
from his Majesty's ministers to contravene
the opinion that a great deal of disaffection
is to be found in Ireland, which renders
it necessary to arm the Irish government
with extraordinary powers, I will most de-
cidedly maintain yet the right hon. gent.
has charged ministers with holding one
kind of language at the commencement of
the session, and another kind to support the
measure under consideration, with, accord-
sng to the right hon. gentleman's own
phrase, '" riding fast and loose." But in
reply to the remark accusing ministers 6f
inconsistency with respect to the statement
of the rebellion, I must observe, that it is
greatly exaggerated by the right hou. gen-
tleman ; that it is by no means so formida-
ble as this discussion would imply, although
it is. of such a size and magnitude fs to justify
the proceedings of the Irish government,
and to call on a wise legislature for the as-
sent so promptly given to the grant of pow-
ers which that government thought neces-
sary for thepublic safety, and to enable them
to prevent an evil which, co operating with
thr attacks and stratagems of an invading
enemy, might be productive of incalculable
mischief. With respect then to the amount
and extent of the Irish rebellion, ,I repeat
that it is very far short of the description
of the right hon. gentleman, but. yet s6ffi-
cient to render it the duty of government to
bring forward the measure before the house.
I will seriously ask any man, whether the
insurrection of the 23d of July, was not the
symptom of such a disposition, as might
break forth, if not closely-watched and guaid-
ed against, by the provisions of such a mea-
sure as the right hon. gentleman opposes ?
To remove all doubts of the necessity whicli
he has questioned, it is enough to refer the
right hon. gentleman to, the evidence upont
the several trials, which-display so clearly
the temper of the insmgenis, to these facts;
that are quite notorious to the country, and
to the peculiar circumstances in which it is
at present placed. After such a review,
who can entertain a dotbt of the propriety
of taking immediate and vigorous measure
to avert the calamities which the state of
things menace. Such indeed was the in-
fluence of those circumstances upon the
minds of those to.whom the government of
Ireland was committed, combined 'with the
knoNwledge they had of the disposition of the
Irish people,! that I caa assure the b9Cid it


[164O






PARL. DEBATES, DEC.


was matter of doubt with many of those re-
spectable, personages, even before.the insur-
rection of the 23d of July, whether they,
should not state to government here, the
propriety of recommending to. Parliament
the adoption of precisely the same powers
and provisions which that insurrection ren-
dered so essentially necessary; and which
it is the object of the bill before the house to
re-enact. I know that the ektpediency of
proposing the suspension of the habeas cor-
pus act, previous to the unfortunate event
in July, was in the contemplation of the
noble lord who held the seals in'thaticoun-
try, who had full opportunity of judging
of the state 6f the public mind, and who
cannot be suspected of any inclination
to adopt a measure which.would abridge
the liberty of the sdioject, without the con-
viction of strong necessity-a necessity
which now exists too notoriously to be de-
fnied. The hon. gentlemen do not indeed
directly deny it, but they call for the forma-
lity of evidence to prove it. What, can it be
said, that at this crisis it is not necessary to
givd every possible strength to the executive
government in Ireland, when it is recollect-
ed that an enemy, who is ever active in his
exertions to annoy us, and who meditates an
invasion, which, if he means at all to exe-
cute, Ireland is his object, and the season is
now come when he will probably make the
attempt? Under such circumstances, I will
put it to the.good sense of the House, whe-
ther there can be aniyexcuse for hesitating to
-accede to the motion in debate, and to give
to the government 6f Ireland all the strength
that is requisite to enable it to encounter
with effect the daigeir with which that coun-
try is threatened ? I-again call upon gentle.
men to separate in their minds the question
as to the conduct of.the Irish government in
July, and the policy of asserting to the pre-
sent measure; and in reply to the calls for a
preliminary inquiry into the grounds of ne-
cessity, I answer, that notoriety, connected
with the enemy's preparations and avowed
objects, furnish sufficient grounds to sustain
the assertion, that circumstances imperiously
demand such measures as ministers have on
this occasion submitted to Parliament; and I
can shew, from a retrospect of the conduct
of the legislature fo" the last ten years, that
notoriety was held in several instances as a
Sufficient ground to justify the, introduction
of bills to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act,
iand that too ihf cases which were defended
Irt the right' hon. gentleriia who spoke last,
.and where the notoriety was'fa from being i
as strong as that which exists at present.
A toiite principle Of appointing a Comnmit-,


5.-I'isl Marlial Law Bill. r1642

tee of Inquiry, I perfectly agree in the opi-
nion of my noble friend (Lord Caslcreagh),
that 'such appointments should not be made,
on light grounds. The House is bound to
avoid it, unless the necessity should be ut-
'gent, and unless the result of such inquiry
should promise to be satisfactory, by fully
gratifying the.just curiosity of the House.
But, if in the present case a committee of
inquiry were appointed, it must be a confi-
dential committee, aiid it would, be qbite
competent to ministers, although with some
difficulty, to lay before such a committee,
such materials as would be sufficient to con-
vince their minds of the' necessity which
*called for the measures under consideration;
but still the report could not afford to the
hon. gentlemen, who were so' anxious for
the committee, the satisfaction they seerii,
to desire; for such a report must necessarily
be general as to the necessity, before it could
go into such a specification as the hon. gen-
tlemen demanded, without revealing the
communication confidentially made to the
committee; a communication which would
lead to the most serious mischief. I here is
in fact no detailed information upon this
point, which it would .not be injurious t6
publish : therefore, there ^is nothing which,
consistently with prudence, the hon. gentle-
men could obtain from the report of a com-
mittee, which they have not already; name-
ly, a statement in general terms of that ne-
cessity, the pressure of which is quite ma,
nitcst, and from ihe'e considerations I shall
:-sist ihe pielimin.iry which the hon. gentle.
men .'. i, for prc ious to giving their assent
t.-. die rrotion of my right hon. friend.-
With regard to the allusions made to the
peace of Amiens, as at all tending to pro-
duce the present state of things,' I will ever
continue to repel the charge which upon tllat
ground has so often been levelled at his Ma-
jesty's ministers, and contend that very dit.
ferent consequences are deducible from that
treaty to those which the right hon. gentle-
man who has just sat down, and his friends,
are in the habit of ascribing to it. Ministers,
I am confident, have never had reason to-feel.
any regret for the advice which, upon. the
occasion of that treaty, they thought it their
duty to offer to his Majesty.-With respect
to the proposition before the House, I cons
tend, that none of the objections advanced ,
against it are tenable upon sound prirtciples
of reasoning, or upon precedent; particular-
ly upon the precedents of late years, when
the melancholy necessity for similar mea-
sures has so often occurred.-There is bne
circumstance I have yet to mention, .which,
'In my mind, is worthy of great attention, It '






,PARL, DEBATES, DE9. 5.-fris Martial Law Bill.


is rather singular, that. in the last session of
parliament, most io the gentlemen in this
House belonging to Ireland, gave strong qs-
uraqpes, that the mind and disposition of
the great mass of the Irish peopleWver,;much
improved and alienated from discontent
and disaffection. From that opinion, how-
ever, .one gentleman, ancd one gentleman
.only, dissented ; and it's now but three
days ago, that the gentleman tp whom I al-
Jude, (Mr. J. C. Beresford) took the oppor-
tunity of correcting his mistake, and de-
clating that his opinion had undergone a
complete change; and notwithstanding that
alteration of 'sentiment, his observatioi.s
strongly tended to enforce the necessity of1 he
present bill. For although he sayshe is con-
,inced of the improvement which has taken
place in the public mind, yet he urges the
adoption of this measure, as absolutely ne-
cessary to preserve the tranquillity of all the
loyal 'people of property in Ireland. I beg
pardon, Sir, for having detained the House
so long, upon a subject, which I could not
imagine would have experienced so serious
an opposition and I have only to state my
conscientious conviction, that it is indispen-
sably requisite for the present safety of that
part of the.United Kingdom.
'Mr. WVilberforce expressed his opinion
upon the grand distinction which should be
niade between the civil and military code :
that there was no ground of doubt why the
imieasure should not be carried into effect. In
the organization, breaking out, and progress
of past insurrection, he found a complete jus-
tification for voting in the affirmative. With
respect to the argument set up by a right
lion. gentleman, that some grounds should
be.stated to the House, it was only necessary
. 'for him' to remark, that the bill was support-
ed-.by the same constitutional system which
"enabled his Majesty to proclaim martial law,
and to call for the aid of all his subje. ts in
case'of the enemy's landing. Hedid not
cpincide in the sentiments of the right hon.
gentleman, who had argued, that a despotic
government would be the best of all govern-
ments, if administered by angels. For his
own part, lie was convinced that the nature
pf despotism was so bad, and tended so much
to corruption, that he preferred the British
constitution, administered even as it was, to
the despotic government of angels. He
'thought the House was called upon to bestow
the most serious consideration upon the state
of Ireland: for it was a melancholy reflec-
tion, that a country which had been con-
nected for several hundred years with this,
enjoying the same benefits, and in possession
f the same constitution, should be afflicted


with such evils and calamities. The causes
of its distresses were certainly well worthy .f
the mature consideration of the British Par-
liament. He felt himself called upon to
say, that the wisdom, benevolence, and jus-
tice of Parliament, could not be more ur-
gently required. liHe hoped no temporary
expedients would be resorted to, but that's
wise,, liberal, and enlarged system of policy
would be adopted, which might make the
people of that country permaieietly happy.
Dr. L.ai.rence, after expressing his ag .e-
me/nt.with the concluding sentirmnts of ith1
last speaker, indicated his right hon. friend
(Mr. Windham) frotr the charge of incon-'
sistency. With regard to the suspension qf
the Habeas Corpus Act, it was a measure o.f
a very different nature from the present.
That was a measure 4, precaution, this of
punishment, and of punishment in a manner
which was looked tupon bv ihe constitution
with peculiar jea.ousy. It was barely tole-
rated, never praised. Afn assertion. had, beep
made that similar bills iad been passed -by
the United Parliament, without enquiry.
This assertion was not borne out by the fact.
He had himself on a former occasion .voted
for the measure, because, from the procla-
mation, he was led to believe ,that a neces-
sity existed Bpt, what document was there
before the House to prove the exi-tence of
any such necessity at this moment? The evi-
dence, such as it was, led to a contrary con-
clusion. It was now acknowledged, that
the murder of Lord Kilwarden was not the
effect of a premeditated plan, b6t had taken.
place from his being the first person who
was presented t !be fury of the mob. But
it was on the group d of the law being more
directly struck at in the person of one of its
chief administrators, that he had vpted for the
Martial Law Bill. On the other side, a hope
had been expressed by his Majesty, that his
deluded subjects were returning to a state of
obedience. By one gentleman the notoriety
of the necessity had been urged-; by another
it had been stated, that an invisible necessity
existed. (Lord Castlereagh here said, that
he had not called it an invisible necessity, he
had said, that there was a necessity though
not visible.) The hon. member then pro-.
ceeded, to say, that he would leave the no-
ble lord to explain to the. House the distinc-
tion, and, in compliment to him, would use
the term non-visible, instead of invisible,
The necessity was not visible, and the no-
toriety which had been mentioned was, he
supposed, not audible. The law, it was ac-
knowledged, had. never been acted upon,-
but in oue solitary instance, and in that one
instance he would-assert, that' it had been


1643]


(1644





PAklA DEI3Att 8, EC c5 .-Irlsh Martial -law mit.


misapplied. It had been directed to the pu-
nishment of a man who had attempted to se*-
duce the soldiers from their allegiance; an
act, which, though perhaps, even nriore cri-
minal than open violence, did riot come
within the. meaning of the statute. The
hon. member noticed the assertion made by
the Chancellor of ihe Exchequer, that it had
been in the contemplation of some members
of the Irish government to propose the
enactment of Martial Law previous to the'
23d of July, and he contrasted it with the
declaration of the right hon. gent. only five
diys before the insurrection, that there was
more loyalty in Ireland than ever, and that
tranquillity was perfectly secure. Should a
distinct enquiry into the business of the 23d
of July ever take place, he hoped the right
hon. gentleman would take for his defence,
ground a little more tenable than that on
ivhich he stood at present. With respect to
the measure now before the House, he wish-
ed the House to consider what had been the
policy of our ancestors, when called upon for
.extraordinary powers, even under circum-
stances of great danger. In the reign of
Edward III. ministers came to the House
for'advice, and stated, that in divers coun-
t'es, cities, and towns, ill-disposed men had
league together, and sworn, when they
should receive news agreeable to their de-
sires, to rise, to rob and murder their neigh-
bours, and procure a general insurrection
throughout the land. This was at a period
when the King was with his army in France,
and the news, which was desired by the ill-
disposed, was no less than the ruin of that
army, at the head of which was the Sove-
reign. In this situation what was done by
the House of Commons? Did it declare
martial law ? 'No. It answered, that if the
guardians of the peace were not capable of
performing their duty, they must be rein-
forced by others more sufficient, and that
no persons arrested must be released on bail
till they were delivered by persons of suffi-
ciency, and the most respectable of the
country, such as knights and serjeants. This
last clause was in effect a mitigated suspen-
sion of the Habeas Corpus Act. Such was
the wisdom of our ancestors. Here was no
recourse to martial law, a sort of law, which,
even in its best form, was alien to the con--
stitution. But, the martial law they were
now called on to sanction, was of an aggra-
vated nature.- It had none of tl.ose checks
'which had been carefully introduced into the
old martial law to modify and correct the
virulence of its operation. The learned mem-
ber then entered into a view of martial law.
It took its rise, he said, from the ancient


Courts of Chivalry, and the administration
of it was originally presided over by a' person
professing the law. Under the Mutiny Bill,
courts martial were to consist of thirteen
officers, and one of them was to be a fields
officer; thus preserving the appearance of a
judge and jury. The culprit too,. was
entitled to a copy of the proceedings and the
,sentence. In short, there had been always
an endeavour to make the martial law as
like theconstitutional law as possible. 'In
the present instance all these ideas wer,
abandoned. Courts martial were allowed toa
be' formed by a smaller number of officers,
.than, under the Mutiny Bill, was allowed in
any part of the British 'dominions, with the
exception only of the slave coast and Botany
Bay, where, from circumstances, it was im-
possible to apply the general rule.' From
the first of these places, he was sure one
hon.-member (Mr. Wilberforce,) would not
be ready to draw any precedent; and hewas
himself, and he believed the House ivould'
be, as little disposed to take one from the
second. It was utterly impossible to assign
any reason why, in a country like Ireland,
where solargean armywas stationed, so small a
numberof offices was allowed to form a court
martial. A want of officers could certainly
not be pleaded. The learned member then
urged the impolicy of suffering martial law
to remain in existence a moment longer than
was absolutely necessary. To shorten the
dominion of the sword, and to bring back
society to its original state, had always been
the wish of every wise legislator. In the
opinion of mankind no disgrace attached to
the memory of those who fell in a state of
warfare. But very different was the case of
those who suffered by the operation of the
laws. A solemn verdict of persons, who
perhaps, were their neighbours, of men
without passion or prejudice, established
their guilt, and their -names were for ever
branded with ignominy. -This was felt by
one of the leaders of the late& insurrection
(Emmet) when he was taken, and an apo-
logy was made for his being .burt in the
struggle, he replied, that every thing was
fair in war; but when he was sentenced by
a jury of his countrymen, his feelings were
very different: conscious of the shame that
was incurred by his end, he desired that no
man might write- his epitaph. Having en-
forced, at considerable length, the various
heads of argument, the hon. member con-
cluded by expressing his disapprobatio.n of
the measure now before the House.
General Loftus considered the bill before
the House merely as a measure of precau-
tiqn, and by no means one upon which th ,






?PARL, DBB4TES, Dgp, 45.-Jrish Martial Lasp BUL l4


noble lord at the 4ea44 of the administration
in Irelaqd would be disposed- to act without
the most urgent and indispensable necessity.
He knew that noble lord, and was convinced
of his disposition. He was a member of the
Irish parliament when a similar measure was
originally enacted. He had the honour also
of serving as a general -on the staff in that
country, whtn the noble lord opposite to him
was chief secretary (Lord Castlereagh); and
le could assure the House, that even then,
"yhen the country was very generally agita-
ted by, a rebellious disposition, martial law
was only resorted to in those counties or dis-
tricts where the King's judges were prevent-
ed by insurrection from going their regular
circuits, to carry into effect the common law
of the land. The governmentof Ireland, he
was well assured, would not resort to it but
when it was found absolutely necessary for
the preservation of the state.
The Attorney General observed, that the
whole of the hon. ind learned gentleman's
arguments were directed against the bill, as
if it were intended to. be carried into adop-
tion,permanently and universally throughout
Ireland : whereas it was merely intended to
'be temporary, and only to be acted on in
such, places as those wherein the ordinary
process of the law should be impeded; so
far, however, from its being a measure sub-
yersive of the common law, or tending to
supetede generally the ordinary course of
justice, it was in fact solely intended as a
measure auxiliary to the common law, and
.tending to protect its administration by pro-
ceeding in the summary process of martial
law in districts where rebellion or insurrec-
tion should render the process of the ordi-
nary law impracticable. He could not avoid
considering the arguments this night offered
'against the adoption of this bill, as very ex-
traordinary, considering the period at which,
and the persons from whom, they came, and
more especially from the right hon. gentle-
man opposite to him, (Mr. Windham,) who
was-a member of his Majesty's government,
when a measure exactly similar to the pre-
.set was first introduced, and was himself
one of its most strenuous advocates and de-;
fenders. .The right hon. gentleman, this
night, was loud and vehement in his repro-
bation of this bill, and in his declaration, that
it most undoubtedly was a measure which
,violated the constitution, and ought not to
pass in the present posture of affairs. He
remembered, however, when a similar mea-
sure was proposed during the administration
of the right hon. gentleman; and when it
was resisted by the.opposition of that day, as
one calculated to exasperate the people of
Trelnd, and to' dispose them still more to re-


billion, the right hon. gentleman's language
was-" who is it we are to conciliate ? Is it
those who are conspiring in rebellion against
us, and 'against those whom we know to be
the loyal supporters and friends of govern-
ment? In favour of whom is it that we are
called on to relax in exercising the powers
of government ? Is it in favour of traitors,
to the abandonment of our loyal fellow sub-
jects?" From this language of the right hon.
gentleman, upon a former occasion, he beg-
ged leave to furnish himself with arguments
this night in support of this bill; and he
would ask if there was a loyal man this night
in Ireland, who could conceive, from the
passing of this bill, the most slight cause to
abate in his loyalty and attachment to go-
vernment; and if, on the contrary, it would
not be received 'as an additional pledge to
every loyal subject, of the care and protection
of the government. He was clearly of opi-
nion, that the people of Ireland would not be
satisfiedl that parliament had done its duty,
if it were to separate without passing the
measure.
Mr. lWindham wished the honourable and
learned gentleman to consider, that if he
meant to expose the opinions of any one, he
must take care to state them correctly : for
that otherwise the triumph which he would
obtain, would be a triumph only over him-
self. He (1Mr. W.) had never said, that the
measure in question, though proper in itself,
.ought to be rejected, because it would be
complained of by those, on whom it was
likely to operate. He had never said, as a
foundation for such an opinion, that the
measure in question was proper. On the
other hand, he was as little inclined to say,
that it was improper. What he complained
of was, that proper or otherwise, the house
was adopting it without proof.
The Hon. C. Holy Hutcbinson.-Sir, while
I highly admire the display of talent which
has characterized this debate, I cannot but
be of opinion, that many of the observations
which have been made, might have been
well spared. I confess, Sir, that I felt du-
ring a great part of the discussion, as a
parent who had been just deprived of i
beloved child, with the physician seated by
me, detailing the. circumstances, and re-
minding me of the agonies under which my
child had perished: whilst I eagerly watch-
ed the opportunity to exclaim, spare Me,
Sir, this torturing and now unavailing. na#-
rative; my child is gone-that loss is irre-
trievable : but, in the name of God, ;ry and.
avert the ravages of a cruel disease from
the rest of my family;" and in the 'same
manner should I be inclined to address the
gentlemen of this House, no more of the


r1648






1649] PARt. IEB.A:ES, t)Ec. 5..-l'risb. Mamtkal Lawv -~111465


severity of this measure, of which happily
for you, you cannot judge of the necessity
by a reference to any thing which passes
here. No more of the useless detail of the
outrages and atrocities which have lately
disgraced that unhappy country; for her
crimes and her sufferings she has much to
miourn ; but the past cannot be recalled : in
the name of mercy, then, save her from
again plunging into the guilt of rebellion,
and incurring its heavy penalties."-I per-
fectly agree with those who consider the re-
enactment of the present bills as a most ex-
traordinary exertion of legislative power;
such a one, as in the, judgment of a Briton
may almost appear unconstitutional; but,
Sir, the hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce) under
the gallery, has given the true reason, why
a measure, which in this country would be
exclaimed against as most severe, becomes
unfortunately necessary for Ireland; namely,
that ifs state is not like that of England:
no, Sir, there exists between the conditions
of the two countries a melancholy dissimili-
tude, and it is only because I fear that the
sad necessity exists for thus strengthening
the hands of the executive in that country,
that I am induced to give my consent to
the passing of the bills before the House ; I
do so in the hope, however, .in the sanguine
expectation, that the wisdom -and justice of
the United Parliament towards Ireland, will,
at length, confer upon her those blessings to
which she anxiously, and I must be allowed
to add, justly looks; and that, by devising
for her a system of extensive and harmoniz-
ed polity, such as will ensure for the future
the happiness and tranquillity of that peo-
ple, a recurrence to such measures as these
before us, will be rendered unnecessary at
any future period.-I will not rake up the
. a4es of the dead, for the purpose of accus-
ing your ancestors of cruelty and impolicy
in the system they had adopted towards Ire-
land; I am ready with my countrymen to
forget our sufferings, and to forgive our op-
pressors; and I do most solemnly declare,
that in looking wistfully to the future, I
have no object but the prosperity of my
country, and the consolidated strength of the
empire.-The proper subject for the con-
sideration of Parliament is speedily to in-
quire as to what ought to be done to ame-
liorate the situation of-Ireland. It has been
observed during the debate, that an im-
provement had taken place in the public
mind, and that a better. disposition was ra-
pidly growing up there;" but I caution,
gentlemen not to allow themselves to be de-
ceived as to the nature of that disposition :
true, indeed; -it was an increasing and im-
VoL. IV.


proving disp6tition as against Buonapart6
and his accursed satellites; but it did hot,
therefore, incline the more favourably to-
wards a system truly vicious and. defective,
and approved by no honest, thinking man,
The inhabitants of Ireland, when by the
Union they joined their fate with thatof
Britain, were, indeed, taught to anticipate
the blessings, as a noble lord (Castlereagh)
has justly observed, which would result from
such 'a connexion; but I positively deny,
that in these their expectations, they have
been satisfied : on the contrary, they have not
advanced one step towards their accom-
plishment; it would, therefore, be prepos-
terous to suppose; and most wicked, to at-
tempt to induce the House'to believe, that
there was a growing disposition of content
and satisfaction, when there was every
ground for the reverse; and I implore gen-
tlemen not to be persuaded into any such
most dangerous opinion.-We who are de-
puted on the part of Ireland to assert her
rights, to uphold her interests, .and to en-
force her claims, appear amongst you in
consequence of the most solemn engage-
ments made to us on the part of your King
and of the Nation.-I complain of the neg-
lect and duplicity of the present ministers,
which, if not calculated to alienate the af-
fections, have, at least, marred the hopes;
but I trust not irrevocably destroyed the
confidence of the Irish people. I trust it it,
not in the power of those who have prbffer-
ed Union to be the cause of separation,
and having sworn to uphold the throne of
their Sovereign and Master, they will not,
I hope, be suffered by their conduct to en- .
danger the integrity of his empire. The re-
sponsibility they. have incurred is possibly
more than they are aware of. They are not
to compare themselves with any other mi-
nister whi"had ever had to advise as to the
management of Ireland; and should they
persevere in their neglect and indifference
to the interests of that country, he should
hope to see them one day at.the bar of ano-
thier house, where the penalties, however
heavy, which they might incur, would be
but a poor and inadequate-atonement for
the mischiefs which the prosecution of their
present system is likely to entail upon the
United Empire.-I venture to hope, that as
so many gentlemen have so humanely -ad-
verted to Ireland, and have manifested a
getherous interest in her'fate, that the House
will speedily consider the means of reliev-
ing her ; that while they give additional
strength to the executive, they will, at the
same time, think of administering some
comfort to the people 3 for surely it is not
Tt


ti65b


1 649]






PARL. DEBATES, DEc. 5.-- Bank'Restriction BIL.


unbecoming the dignity of any govern-
ment, or the wisdom of -any legislature, to
prove that it combines the power to repress
rebellion, with tlhe determined disposition
to remove all ground of complaint and dis-
satisfaction. Such is the course which any
good government would gladly pursue, and
which ministers, were they actuated by the
principles of humanity, and an unnarrowed
attachment to the entire of the empire, they
would not fail immediately to adopt -The
- question was then put and carried; the bill
was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to a Committee of the whole
House to-morrow.
[BANK RESTRICTION BILL.]-Mr. Sar-
gent brought up the Report of the Bank of
England Restriction Bill. On reading the
amendment, which makes the duration of
the Bill six months after the conclusion of
peace,
Sir William Elford called the attention of
the House to.an important alteration in this
bill from that of the last year, which took
place in a very thin committee on Saturday
last. It was in filling up the blank for the
duration of the bill, by the insertion of the
words ".six months" after the ratification, of
the Treaty of Peace, instead of six weeks,"
which was the time expressed in the last
bill.. He did not mean to oppose the altera-
tion, but felt it his duty to call the attention
of the House, as it had been made in so very
thin a committee.
The Chancellorof the Exchequer admitted,
that the alteration alluded to by the hon.
member, was certainly important; but he
trusted the House would agree with him that
it was also necessary. It had been thought
inconvenient io make the bill continue only
for six weeks after peace, because, if that
should happen in the recess, and it should
be found inconvenient to allow the Bank to
pay off in. cach so soon afterwards, Parlia-
ment must assemble for that very purpose;
whereas, if Parliament should be sitting, and
six months should appear too long, the time
might be shortened, for there was power to
varyor repeal the bill at any time, contained in
the bill itself.-After'a few words from Mr.
Vansittart and Mr. Swann, the amendment
was agreed to. The bill was ordered to be
ingroised, and read a third time to-morrow,
it then engrossed.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, December 6.
Counsel were heard in continuation, and
finally, respecting the Scotch Appeal, Chris-
tie v. Promw:oof, viz. "Messrs. Romilly and


Nolan, on the part of the Respondant, and
Mr. Adam for the Appellant, in reply.-Af-
ter the arguments of Counsel were conclud-
ed, the Lord Chancellor moved for the Af-
firmation of the Decree, with 601. costs,
which was ordered accordingly.-LordWal-
singham moved the first reading of the Sea-
men's Habeas Corpus Bill, which took place
accordingly, and afterwards that the bill be
printed for the use of their Lordships. Order-
ed.-Mr. Graham presented at the bar an ac-
count of thestate ofconvicts on board the hulks
atWoolwich and at Portsmouth, from Christ-
mas 1802, until Michaelmas last.-Mr. Ro-
binson, from the London l et Docks Com-
pany, presented an account ,of the receipts
and disbursements of the same for one year,
being from the 1st of June 1803, to the 3 tst-
of May 1803, both inclusive: and also,. a
copy of a report of the Eoard of Directors
thereon.-These documents were several'y
ordered to lie on the table, and at six o'clock
the House adjourned till to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, Dccember 6.
[MINUTES.]-Mr. Graham, Inspector of
Convicts on the river Thames, presented an
account of the state of the hulks from
Christmas to Michaelmas. Ordered to lie
on the table.-Mr. Robinson, from the Lon-
don Dock Company, presented an account
of receipts and disbursements, from the 1st
of June 1802 to the 31st of May 1803. Or-
dered to lie on the table.-Mr. Johnson
from the office of the Chief Secretary in Ire-
land, presented an account of the distribu-
tion of the sum of 500,0001. voted last ses-
sion to the Directors of Inland Navigation
in Ireland, and of the different sums grant-
ed to Grand Juries, which were ordered to
lie on the table.-Sir F. Burdett brought up'
the Report of the Committee on the Peti-
tion of the Parish of St. Pancras, whic
was read and agreed to, and a bill ordered.
-The Secretary at War appeared at the bar
and stated, that he was commanded by his
Majesty to acquaint the House, that his Ma-
jesty had caused Major-General Napper
Christie Burton to be put under an arrest,
for a breach of militarydiscipline.-He then
moved, that an humble Address be present-
ed to his Majesty, thanking his Majesty for
his most gracious communication, and for
his tender regard for the privileges of that
House. Ordered.-Mr. Secretary Yorke
moved, in pursuance of an order of the day,
that the House should go into a Committee
on the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill,
The bill having gone through the committee,
the


[t652






PARL. DEBATES, DEc. 6.-Irish Bank Restriction Bill.


the report was brought up, and ordered to
be. received to-morrow.-Mr. Secretary
Yorke moved also, that the House do go into
a Committee on the Irish Martial Law Bill.
The House having accordingly resolved into
the committee, and the clauses having been
filled up, the report was brought up, and
ordered to be received to-morrow.-The-Re-
port of the Committee of Supply of yester-
day on the TransportService, &c. was brought
up, and the Resolutions read, and agreed to.
-The Indemnity Bill, after a clause was
received into- it, on the motion of Mr. Corry,
extending the provisions to Ireland, past a
Committee of the whole House, and the
report was ordered to be received to-mor-
row morning.-The Irish Sugar Bounty Bill
went through the same stage.-The Bill to
prohibit Distillation from Oats in Ireland
was read a first time, and ordered to be read
a second time to-morrow.-As also the Por-
tugal Wine Bonding Duty Bill.-The Bank
of England Restriction Bill was read a third
time and past.-The Malt Duty Bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted to a Committee of the whole House
to-morrow morning.- The Irish Small
Note Suspension Bill went through the
same progress.-The Five Million Exche-
quer Loan Bill went also through the same
progress.- The Irish Corn, Potatoe, and
Provision Bills, in like manner, past the
same stage.- As did also ihe Curates' Re-
lief Bill, and the English Sugar Drawback
Bill.
[IRISH. BANK RESTRICTION BILr.]--Mr.
Corry moved the order of the day for the se-
cond reading of the Irish Bank Restriction
Bill; and on the motion that the bill be now
read a second time,
Lord Archibald Hamilton rose. He said,
he did not see any reason why the restriction
of payments in specie should be continued,
either on the Bank of Englapd or Ireland, to
the protracted period of six months after the
ratification of the preliminaries of peace.
It must be obvious, his lordship thought, to
every person, that the paper currency of Ire-
land was already carried to an alarming ex-
tent. It was his intention, he said, to move
in the committee, that there should be a re-
striction of paper circulation in Ireland, and
that the Directors o" that Bank should be
made responsible for the issues'they should
make. ,
Mr. Corry, in reply to the noble loId, ad-
mitted that it was, no doubt, a subject of re-
gret, that the paper currency of Ireland was
carried to such an extent. He was ready to
pdmit this; but, at the same time, he thought
1he noble lord had better delay any motion


of that kind till a more advanced period of
the session. Many of the members from
Ireland were now absent, being engaged oa\
account of the peculiarity of the times, and
of the situation of their native country, in'
their military avocations. Their absence,
from such ostensible and laudable motives,
would be readily admitted by every man as
highly to their honour. He had no objec-
tion that this subject should be brought be-
fore the House; but he thought. it was only
fair, that a discussion of this kind should not
be entered into-in the absence of those gen-
tlemen, who were most concerned, and who
were most likely to understand the subject.
It was probable that, after the recess, many
of the Irish members would be able to attend
the House. The hon. gentleman, proposed,
therefore, to refer the business till a distant
period, when such gentlemen might be pre-
sent, And when accounts might be produced
for that purpose. The hon. gentleman also,
he said, would be enabled by such a delay
to make up his mind upon the subject.- He.
concluded by moving, that the bill be com-
mitted to a Committee of the whole House]
on Monday, the 13th of February.-Agreed
to.
[ORDER FOR COL.. GRANT'S ATTEN'-
DANCE.]-Colonel F. W. Grant, who, on
account of his absence on the Waterford
Committee, had been ordered to attend in
his place to-morrow, rose, and expressed'his
regret that he had given any trouble to the
House. He stated, that it had been his in-
tention, notwithstanding his military avoca-
tions, to attend, if absolutely necessary, .on
his duties connected with that House. From
corresponding, however, with a friend in
London, he was led to understand, that elec-
tion committees were necessarily dissolved
at the termination of the session, and that
consequently his attendance on the Water-
ford Committee was no longer necessary..
The failure of duty of which he had been
guilty had arisen from this misapprehension,
and not frpm any intention to transgress the
regulations of the House. The moment, he
said, he had received the order of that House.
for his attendance, he had set out from Dun-
dee, where his regiment was now stationed,.
and where it would be necessary for him to.
return immediately. His military duties were
of an imperious nature. He relied, there-.
fore, on the indulgence of the House, and
hoped they would attribute his' absence, not
.to any want of respect for the House, or to
any tendency to neglect his duty, but to the
misapprehensions he had already stated, and
the imperious commands of military duty.
The Speaker stated, that it was usual, in
Ttt2s






PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 6.-East, IndiaBonds.


such cases for the House to say whether
they were satisfied with the apology or not,
and then either to discharge the gentleman
from attendance on the committee, if satis-
fied; or, if not satisfied with the gentleman's
apology, the House would 'order his atten-
dance to-morrow, as formerly.
Mr. Plumer rose and moved, that, in
consequence of the hoh. gentleman's apo-
logy, the order for his attendance to-morrow
be discharged."'- The motion was agreed
to, and the order was discharged accord-
ingly.---Colonel Grant returned his sin-
cere thanks to the House for their indul-
gence.
[EAST INDIA BONDS.]-Lord Castlereagb
moved'the order of the day, for the House to
resolve Itself into a committee on the bill for
-regulating the rate of interest on the bonds
issued by the East India Company. On the
motion, that the Speaker do now leave the
chair,
Mr. Dent rose, not tygoppose the commit-
tal of the bill, but to call the attention of the
House to the principal feature of it, which
he considered rather extraordinary, as giving
an indulgence to the East India Company,
which he thought extremely partial, and one
from which every individual and corporate
body in this kingdom, was precluded. A few
nights since, the hon. Secretary of the Trea-
sury, in answer to a question put to him by
an hon. member on his side of .the House,
respecting the tax on property and income,
amongst other things bad declared it to be
the intention of government, to go through
with the assessment of the tax, during the
present year, in the manner prescribed by the
existing bill. Now the present bill intro-
duced by the noble lord, was calculated to
affect, by a side wind, an exemption of the
bonds of the India Company from the law
to which every other species of public stock
was liable; and, consequently, to give those
bonds a considerable advantage at market,
over Exchequer Bills and every other species
of stock; for the whole of the interest pay-
able on Exchequer Bills, amounted to
5l, 6 s. 3 d. per cent. per ann. payable year-
ly, and he could see no reason why an ex-
emption should be extended to India Bonds,
which would give them a preference at mar-
ket-over Exchequer Bills, seeing that they
engaged a preference by the interest thereon
being paid half-yearly. At least, if such an
exemption as this vwas given to the public
funds of the India Company, with a privi-
lege of borrowing at such an extraordinary
advance of interest,. he could see no right in
precluding other corporgtioas friom .a siila
*advantage,


Lord Castlereagh rose, and, in answer to
that part of Mr. Dent's speech which refer-
red to the Income Tax, said, that the decla-
ration of his hon. friend neither had, nor
ought to have, any reference to the affairs
of the East-India Company; and he trusted
that the House would not consider, at the
present crisis, that any regulations which his
Majesty's ministers might deem necessary
in assessing the Income Tax upon the pro-
perty of individuals, ought to stand in the
way of an important and necessary regula-
tion, most materially interesting to the funds
of a great commercial company, with the
success of whose concerns the public reve-
nues of this country were so deeply interest-
ed. He begged to call the attention of the
House to the annual amount-of the revenue
paid to this country by the East-India
Company, amounting, on an average, to
'3,226,000 annually; and he trusted the
House would feel too sensibly the import-
ance of that concern which the. country
must have in the welfare of a company
yielding such important aid to the state, to
refuse, on light or trivial grounds, its assent
to such regulations in the management of
their funds and capital, as should be abso-
lutely necessary to carry on their commer-
cial concerns, under the present circum-
stances of the empire, without material dis-
advantage: for it was the province of the
East-India Company, even. under all the'
vicissitudes and disadvantages of war, to
promote the commercial prosperity of the
country in the most distant quarters of tlhe
globe; and this was not to be done unless
they were enabled to keep a certain quan-.
tity of their funds afloat, and prevent them
from returning back to their treasury, where-
by their capital would be most materially
diminished, and their means of trade con-
sequently cramped. -This could only be ef,
fected by enabling them so to regulate their
rates of interest, as to maintain that respec-
tability to their bonds, at market, which
would prevent a decided preference of other
funds, to the depreciation of theirs. The
hon: member had said, that the bonds of
the company stood in no need of such aid,
for that they at present enjoyed an advan-
tage at market over Exchequer Bills, on ac-
count of their interest being payable half
yearly. The fact, however, was otherwise;
for Exchequer Bills wore now at a premium
of one shilling above par, whereas India
Bonds were at a discount of two shillings.
The noble lord .then went generally into
some financial statements of the company,
in support pf the bill : and contended that
Sthe increase of interest oR their bonds wa


([1686






PARL. DEBATES, DEci .-East-India Bonds.


necessary to give them currency abroad.
He coricluded by expressing a hope that the
House would not refuse this indulgence to
a great trading company, in whom the re-
venue and the state were so materially con-
cerned.
Mr. Johnson said, the statement of the
noble lord thii night was in perfect consis-
tency with the conduct adopted uniformly
by him respecting, the affairs of the com-
pany. In the last session, he amused the
House with a pompous statement of the
flourishing situation of their finances, and
the brilliant prospects of their prosperity:
but what is the first illustration the noble
lord gives in this session ? Why, a new plea
of embarrassment, and a new appeal to the
indulgence of the House, for the privilege-
of borrowing money, to answer their exi-
gencies, at a much higher interest than any
other corporate body, or individual in this
country, dares venture to offer. Such was
the conduct he should ever expect from the
noble lord, so long as he presided over the
conduct of Inda affairs; ever complaining
of existing embarrassments, and ever hold-
ing out specious promises of future pros-
perity.
Mr. Vansittart said, that the present bill
purported no more -han a temporary relief
to the India Company, from a species of
embarrassment which in time of war must
more or less affect all borrowers, public or
private. The government of the country,
at such times, always filled up its loans up-
on worse terms than were to be had in
times of peace; and no company or indivi&-
dual could expect to be exempt from simi-
lar disadvantages: there was nothing, there-
fore, unreasonable, or unfair, in this mode
of enabling the India Company to meet the
terms upon which only their demands could
be supplied.
Mr.- Charles Grant said, the object of the
bill was not to place the company in a bet-
ter situation, but to prevent it from being
placed in a worse situation. India bonds
were coming in every day to be paid, and if
the Property Tax was to be deducted at the
India-House in fractional parts, according
to the number of weeks and days upon
which it might be necessary to calculate, it
would create endless confusion and embar-
rassment, and must tend to depreciate the
bonds.
Mr. IVilliam Dundas also supported the
bill; and denied there was any trumh in the
arguments of the hon. gent. opposite him
(Mr. Johnson), that there was any proof in
this bill of any embarrassment in the cir-
t.maitapces of the East-Iadia Comipany, or,


any thing which could found a fair opinion
against their prosperity.-After some further
conversation, the question was put and car-
ried, and the House having resolved itself
into a Committee upon the bill, went
through the same, and it was ordered to be
reported to-morrow.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
TVednesday, December 7.
Lord Hawkesbury presented the papers
relative to the Convention entered into be-
tween Great-Britain and Sweden, on the
25th July, which were laid upon the .table.
-The Seamen's Desertion Bill was read a
second time, and committed for to-morrow.
-The Bank Restriction Bill was brought
up from the Commons, read'a first time,
and ordered to be read a second time.


HOUSE OF COMMONS.
WVednesday, December 7.
[MINUTE.s.]-Sir John Newport, return-
ed by the Committee member for Water-
ford instead of Mr. Alcock, took the oaths
and his seat.-A private petition was brought
up respecting the widening of the Can.ter-
bury Road. Ordered to lie.on the table.-
Mr. C. L. Dundas brought up the report
of the Waterford Committee, which stated,
that the Committee had found the election
of Mr. Alcock illegal and defective, and
that consequently they had declared Sir
John Newport >he legal member.-Mr. C.
'L. Dundas also in pursuance of this report
moved, that the Deputy Clerk of the'Crown
be ordered to attend to-morrow morning,
in order to erase the name of Mr. Alcock,
and alter the election. Ordered.-Mr.-Sar-
gent brought up the report of the Qualifica-
tion Indemnity Bill. Ordered to be read a
third time to-morrow.-Mr. Corry moved
the order of the day for a Committee of the
whole House on the Irish Sugar Drawback
Bill; The alterations adopted by the Com-
mittee were purely verbal.-The House be-
ing resumed the report was ordered to be
received to-morrow.-Mr. Corry moved the
order of the day for the Irish Distillery Bill.
It was read a second time, and ordered to
be committed to-morrow.-Mr. Corry mov-
ed the order of the day for a Committee of
the whole House on the Irish Promissory
Note Bill. The House having resumed, the
report was ordered to be received to-mor-
row.-Mr. Corry moved the order of the
day for a Committee of the whole House on-
the Irish Provision Bill. The House hav,.


-.,~


1657]


[1658






PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 7.-Irish'Martial Law Bill.


ing-respmed, the report was ordered to be
received to-morrow.-Mr. Corry moved the
order of the day for the second reading of
the Irish Proclamation Indemnity Bill. It
was read a second time accordingly, and
ordered to be committed to-morrow.-Mr.
Secretary Yorke brought up the report of
the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill,
which was ordered to be read a third time
to-morrow.-Mr. Hobhotuse brought up the
report of the East-India Bonds Bill. Order-
ed to be read a third time to-morrow.-
The Malt Duty Bill was passed through a
Committee, and was ordered to be reported
to-morrow.-Mr. J. C. Beresford gave no-
rice that he would to-morrow move for
leave to bring in' a bill to regulate the sale
-of corn in the City of Dublin.-Upon the
motion for the committal of the Curate's
Residence Bill, a few observations were
made by different hon. members, in the
course of which the Chancellor of- the Ex-
chequer observed, that most probably all
the bills which were in such a state of for-
wardness would be read a third time on Fri-
day next.-The Curate's Relief Bill passed
through a Committee, and was ordered to be
reported to-morrow. -Accounts were ordered
to be laid before the House of the sums of
money which have been issued to his Ma-
jesty by-Parliament pursuant to addresses of
the House, and which had not as yet been
made good.-The Wine Bonding Bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted to-morrow.-The Five Million Loan
Bill, the Expiring Laws Bill, and the Sugar
Drawback Bill, were committed, and order-
ed to be reported to-morrow.
[IRISH MARTIAL LAW BILL.] Mr.
Hawthorn then broughtup the report of the
committee on the bill for continuing Mar-
tial Law in Ireland. The report being read,
Mr. Wilberforce said, it was not his in-
tention to trouble the house with any long
or minute discussion. With regard to the
necessity of the measure now before the
house, he believed there could be only one
opinion. He rose, not to oppose the mea-
sure nor to deny its necessity, for he was of
opinion that such a measure was really ne-
cessary in the present circutpstanices of Ire-
land, and that it had been suggested by the
imperious dictates of necessity lone. The
only difference that existed between him
and the. framers of the bill, was in regard
to the mode of carrying it into execution.-
He did not wish to trouble the house, but
he wished to propose, some amendment in
regard to the constitution of those courts
martial to which the bill alluded. He
thought, unless in a case of the most irnpe,


rious necessity, and suggested by the strong-
est reasons of expediency, no court martial
ought to be permitted to sit in such instances
which was not composed of seven members
at least. If circumstances unhappily re-
quired the interference of such courts, it
ought to be an object with the legislature to
invest thqm with as much wisdom and deli-
berative justice as the nature of the case
would possibly admit. The number con-
stituting such courts, he thought, ought ne-
ver to be more than thirteen nor less than
seven. There was not less danger from too
many than from too few, in the determina-
tion of such cases as might come before
them. The age of individuals composing
those courts, he thought also, ought to be
particularly attended to. It was well known,
that in the army there were many young
men officers, who had not arrived at that
age which the laws of the country have
wisely fixed as necessary to enable a man to
have the conduct of his own private affairs.
And could it for a moment be thought pru-
dent that we should entrust the lives of our
fellow citizens to men whom the laws of the
country had judged incompetent to the ma-
nagement of their own private affairs ? He
thought it was indispensably necessary that
the legislature should provide that no minor,
that no man under the legal age, should be
permitted to sit in any such courts martial.
The measure, he allowed, was necessary;
but it ought to be the care of that house to
appear reluctant to deviate in any degree
from the ordinary exercise of the laws :
they'ought to appear scrupulous in the adop-
tion of any harsh or severe measure, and to
remove as much as possible from its mode of
execution the appearance of all. harshness,
injustice, or severity. This he thought
might be done by the provisions which he
wished to propose as an amendment. He
could not conceive that these alterations
would render the measure in any shape less
effectual. Did he apprehend this as the
consequence, he would be the last man to
propose them. He knew, indeed, very well,
that the government of Ireland would not
wish to exercise any authority put into their
hands, with greater severity than the urgen-
cy of circumstances might require. But
while he was perfectly conscious of this, he, "
at the same time, wished that the legisla-
ture should not trust to any individuals for
the upright or lenient execution of any mea-
sure; but should prescribe to them their
duty by the letter of the law.-What is the
circumstance, the hon. gent. asked, that
endears the trial by jury to every man of
this country ? Is not.eyery member of. that


L -


Aw


0660





PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 7.--Iris Martial Lawv Bill.


jury liable to be reduced to the same cir-
cumstances of.the person standing charged
before him ? Is there not a sympathy sub-
sisting between the jurors and the persons
whom they try-a sympathy that gives con-
fidence to every man, that, if he has justice
and equity on his side, it is the interest
and congenial to the feelings of the jury to
acquit him ? In an ordinary court martial
also, the officers composing that court mar-
tial were called to the trial of men of their
own character and profession-men who had
been similar to themselves, and to whose
circumstances they were uncertain but they
themselves might likewise, at some future
period, be reduced. Here also there existed
that sympathy and fellow feeling which ope-
rated in favour of the person to be tried.
But the circumstances of a court martial
trying criminals accused of rebellion were
very different. The persons brought before
them had different interests, and would
seem to be almost of a different species.
From the circumstances of a country in
such a situation, they were too apt to meet
their victims with anger and passion, which
must everbe hostile to the deliberative mea-
sures either of justice or mercy. They feel
too great an interest as a party to listen with
that partiality which ought always to be ex-
tended to the unfortunate. If such would
naturally be the case with almost all men in
such circumstances, how much more ought
the house to guard against the passions or
prejudices of rash, unthinking, or unfeeling
youth. In some instances he was aware
the amendment he proposed to make might
be attended with difficulty ; but the lord
lieutenant, he thought, might in such in-
stances have a discretionary power. In times
such as the present we ought, to plaee some
confidence in the government, particularly
in cases where the letter of the law could
not with so much advantage be enforced.-
The hon. gent. concluded with staying, that
in his opinion such courts martial as the bill
alluded to, should not consist of more than
thirteen, nor of less than seven, and that
none under age should be admitted to sit in
those courts.
The Speaker stated, that the object of
the hon. gent. could only be obtained by
moving a separate and distinct clause to be
introduced' into the bill.
Mr. Wilberforce accordingly made out the
clause at the table, and read it to the house.
On the question being 'put that the clause be
brought up,
Colonel Wood said, he had no objection
to the amendment proposed by the hon.
gent. but rather than give any discretionary


,power to the lord-lieutenant, he thought-it
would be more eligible 'to dispense with the
number, seven proposed by the hon. gent.,
and admit five as the smallest number that
should constitute a court martial. He was
inclined to be jealous in conceding discre-
tionary powers to government that were not
absolutely necessary.- The clause was
brought up and read a first time. On the
question being put that it should be read a
second time,
Mr. Secretary Yorke observed, that he
could not agree entirely with the hon. gen-
tleman who had proposed the amendment,
though he was ready to give him full credit
for the sincerity of his intentions. His
great objection wasg, and he thought it must
occur to every person, that this amendment
was inconsistent with the original spirit of
the measure proposed by the bill. The bill
was of such a nature as could only be vwar-
ranted by necessity. If there was no tie-
cessity for the measure, it would be better
to discharge the bill entirely; but if the,
measure was thought necessary, which the
hon. gent. fully admitted, such an amend-
rent as' he proposed would entirely defeat
its object. Were it possible for regular
courts to sit, or for legal juries to be as-
sembled, there would be no occasion for
such a measure ; but neither regular courts
nor legal juries 'could meet with safety to
themselves in the present circumstances of
the country, and it was for this reason only
that the measure was brought forward. Was
it possIble, the right hon. gent. asked, that
any court in the very heart of rebellion
could previously go through any tedious
process to ascertain the particular qualifica-
tions of its members, or would it be proper
that every officer, in order to ascertain. his
age, should carry a ceriificatein his pocket?
The principle on which the hon. gent. pro- /
ceeded would go entirely t6 prevent, in
many instances, the assembling of" any
court,together, and at times too when it
might be most necessary. The righi hon;
Secretary concluded by stating that, if the
bill is at all necessary, it ought to pass as
it is, and if not necessary it ought to be
entirely dismissed; but the amendment, it
was obvious, would go to defeat its object.
Mr. Winidham thought that no restrictions
of the kind the amendment went to establish
ought to be introduced in courts martial.
If he were to state his objection to courts of
this description, ha'would say that they were'
not so competent as others. But this ob-
jection. referred entirely to that degree of
judgment which men of such habits an4
pursuit were likely to exercise. The great


. [1662






PARL. DEBATES, DEC. .-*rish Martial Law Bill.


criterion to be sought for in courts, to which
either the lives, the properties, or the -pri-
vileges of men were to be tried, was judg-
ment. But the,hon. gentleman had not
founded any of his reasons of-amendment
upon this broad and ostensible principle.'
He had objected to the general constitution
of-courts martial on the score of sympathy.
It was not probable that any of those gentle-
men composing a court martial would ever
be reduced to the melancholy circumstances
of those brought before them for trial. If
this objection on the score of sympathy and
feeling had any weight, it would militate
equally against all courts martial. Did not
courts martial try private soldiers as well as
their brother officers, and would the hon.
gent. say that officers could have that sort of,
sympathy with private soldiers which he was
disposed to derive from an idea of a probabi-
lity of being involved in similar circumstan-
ces ? The truth was, that here there was no
.such sympathy as the hon. gent. pleaded for ;
.and would' he. or any other gentleman say
that that house ought to be more tender of
the lives of rebels in Ireland, than of the
lives of private soldiers who formed the
strength and defence of the, country ? and
yet the hon. gentleman's motion went to
shew that where we neglected the interests
of the private soldier, ,we should be anxious
to provide for the safety of rebellion. But
the hod. gent. was apprehensive of the rash-
ness and undiscriminating judgment of such,
officers as were under age. For his own
part if any want of feeling was to be ap-
prehended, it was not, he thought, from
young men warm with all the feelings, and
t all the sympathies of youth. If any such
danger was to be apprehended, it was from
men rather grown old in the prejudices and
passions of a party ; it wasp from men-who
-had grown callous by long habits of severity.
The right hon. gentleman concluded by
saying, that in regard to the principle or
.necessity of the bill, he. was not at present
called upon to give his opinion. He could
not say it was necessary, and he was not
prepared to say that it' was unnecessary.
But at all events if the bill was necessary,
'the amendment went in a- great measure to
defeat its object, and was besides founded
,on a principle that militated against courts.
'martial of every 'description.
Mr. Wilberforce, in explanation, said, he
did "not mean to cast any reflection on the
integrity of young officers but he thought
they wanted steadiness, and the right hon.
gentleman confirmed the opinion, when lihe
spoke of.the warmth of their feelings, That


warmth may incline one way as much as
another.
Dr. Laurence disapproved of the clause;
the remedy was not such as should be ap-
plied. When the general measure was be-
fore the house, his object had been to render
courts martial as like as possible to those
under the muiiny act. The president, under
that act, should be a field officer, and age
and experience were secured by the rank.
He did not see why the same regulation
should not hold in the present instance, nor
why the courts should not consist of the
same number of officers as in all other parts
of his Majesty's dominions, except two places,
*where circumstances did not permit it. The
number of troops in Ireland afforded every
facility, and it was the more necessary to have
this tribunal liberally-constituted, as it took
the individuals out of the cognizance of the
other courts. The objection of the hon.
gentleman, on the score of passions, amount-
ed to nothing more than the general evil of
human infirmity; and if it was to be regard-
ed, we could not have a judge or jurer
against whom objections could not be made.
His objection wvas to the preamble, which
took so wide a range, that robbing a hen-
roost might be construed into an act of re-
bellion. The hon. gentleman had observed
on a former night, that -ngels could not be
trusted with arbitrary power : his present
opinion went to say, that after twenty-one,. it
lost its corruptive nature.
Lord Archibald Hamilton said, there ap-
peared to him to be two reasons held out for
voting the present measure ; one was, the
late insurrection in Dublin. If the hope ex-
pressed in his Majesty's speech, and the ad-
dress in answer to it, was to be relied on, it
was a measure of precaution. Precaution
against what? Was it against rebellion, against
insurrection, against dissatisfaction in the
people against the government ? No. If he
were to exercise his own understanding, he
would say it .ws not a precaution against
fear, or against danger, but against the con- -
fidence and hope expressed by his majesty's
ministers. Bearing in mind the sad and -
calamitous consequences which attended
this measure when it first passed, he could
not approve of the continuance of it; and
he wished to give it this decided,mark of
his disapprobation. The question being put,
the clause was negatived. On the question,
that the bill be read a third time to-morrow,
Admiral Berkeley rose, not :to oppose the
bill, though his Majesty's ministers gave no
satisfactory reason why- it should pass, but
Sto give notice that he should on an early


1663]


[1664






1'665] PARL. DEBATES, DEc.

day, the earliest he could after the recess,
move for the production of certain papers,
which he hoped would clear away the im-
putation which, from something that had
been said on a former night, now very un -
justly rested on the character of the late
commander in chief in Ireland (General Fox).
The Chancellor of the Exchequer called
on the hon. admiral to state.
Admiral Berkeley said, he alluded to what
the chancellor of the exchequer said, that
the commander in chief had early intelligence
of the intended insurrection on the 23d
July."
The Chancellor of the Exchequer denied
having used these words. A gentleman,
who spoke in the early part of the debate on
tije night he alluded to (Mr. W. Elliot) hav-
ing said, that no instructions had been given
to the commander in chief, no communica-
tion made to the lord mayor; he had said,
that instructions had been given to the lord
mayor 'through the superintending magis-
trate,a police officer well known to the hon.
gentleman. He took the earliest opportu-
nity of declaring, that he had not the most
distant idea of casting any imputation on the
officer alluded to, nor had he heard, except
from the hon. gentleman, that there was the
smallest idea that any imputation was sup-
posed to exist. He was sure, that whenever
the conduct of the late commander in chief
in Ireland, came to be considered, it would
be found as free from blame, and as credit-
able to that deserving officer, as any other
part of the conduct of the Irish government
was, to the general credit which the con-
duct of that government had obtained.
Admiral Berkeley.-The right hon. gen-
tleman has mistaken me. I did not mean
to say, that I conceived any imputation
against that meritorious officer from the
words that he spoke: yet, I do think, they
conveyed an aspersion. Ths hon. officer
himself thinks so; nor is he the only person
who does think so. The right hon. gentle-
man said, that early intelligence was sent to
the commander in chief.
The Chancellor -of the Exchequer.-What
I said was, that information had been sent,
at an early hour, to the superintending ma-
gistrate.
Mr. J. C. Beresford observed, that to any
gentleman acquainted with Dublin, it could
not appear at all surprising, that the insur-
rection of the 23d of July should happen
(even if such had been the case) without the
knowledge of government or the commander
in 'chief. It took place in the most obscure
part of the city, proceeded only through three
VOL. IV..


7.-Iri sh Martial Law B;h. 1666

streets, and was put down in one hour. He
also observed, that the night was remarkably
dark. From these circumstances, the hon.
member inferred, that this disturbance might
have occurred without the knowledge of the
civil government or the commander in chief;
without attaching any blame to either, for
neglect of duty or inattention.
Mr. T. Grenville not having before taken
any part in the discussion of the measure be-
fore the House, did not mean to oppose it in
the stage to which it had arrived; nor should
he have, on this occasion, troubled the House
with any observations, if some expressions,
which had fallen from the right hon. secre-
tary, had not compelled him to it, in order
to exclude himself from thaf general convic-
tion of the necessity of the measure which
had been said to exist. He should not take
up the time of the House, by entering into an'
inquiry whether the measure were necessary
or not ? but he would contend, that from
the information which his Majesty's minis-
ters had thought proper to give, no inference
could be drawn of the existence of that ne-
cessity. When his right hon. friend (Mr.
Windham), on the first introduction of the
measure, had applied for a short delay, in
order that information might be laid before
the House, his application had been rejected
on the ground that the smallest delay would
be dangerous in the then existing circum-
stances.. Though he was not in the Housd
himself on that occasion, he was at the time
fully sensible of the justice of the application,
but whatever argument might have applied
in that instance against delay, there could
be none to apply in the present. The two
bills now in their stages through' the
House, would not expire till six weeks
after the commencement of the present
session. The session' had commenced on
the 22d of November, and the" bills
would of course not expire till the 1st or
2d of January. He therefore put it to the
House, what possible argument could be
used against a short delay, until such in-
formation should be communicated to the
Hbuse, either by the report of an open or
secret committee, as should justify the adop-
tion of such strong measures. It had been
more than once his lot to complain of the
conduct of his Majesty's ministers, in bring-
ing forward measures of great importance,
without laying sufficient information before
the House ; and he took this opportunity of
protesting against the niamner in which the
two bills before the. House had been intro-
duced. There was another circumstance
too that should weigh with parliament, and
Uu


I


'4


i





PARL. DEBATES, Dac. 7.-lrish M1artial Law Bill.


which materially affected the spit of the
constitution: he meant the operation of such
a course of proceeding in the legislative
union. Since the passing of that measure,
it had become more than ever the duty, of
his Majesty's ministers to shew to the peo-
ple of Ireland, that every measure involv-
ing their interests, not only claimed but re- -
ceived as much discussion and attention as
it would, if their own legislature still con-
tinued -to assemble. It was particularly
their dutyto avoid giving the slightest ground
of suspicion, or suffering'any one to fancy that
the affairs of that country.were not fully
attended to. He did not mean to oppose the
completion of the two bills before the House,
though, if he were to follow the example of
other gentlemen, in stating .the ground of
his private opinion, he should feel em-
barrassed, and considerable difficulty in
making up his mind on the subject.
The House had no documents to ascertain
whether the measure were the wisest or most
proper for Ireland ; they had no official in-
formation whether the situation of that coun-
try was such as to require coercive measures;
they had no ground on which to rest their
proceedings, but the language of his Majes-
ty's ministers, that language generally vary-
ing, and always changing. He meant no-
thing ungracious to his Majesty's ministers
individually, but, as a member of Parliament,
he was bound to speak his sentiments open-
ly, and say, he could have no confidence in
their administration, neither in the wisdom
of their measures, nor in the activity with
which they executed them. The hon. gen-
tleman entered here into a train. of severe
comments on the conduct of ministers, and
on their incapacity. He then adverted to
the manner in which the notice of his hon.
friend (Admiral Berkeley) had been so
-quickly commented on by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. He had expected that his
hon. friend's observations would have met
with a very different reception. That chal.
lenge which ministers had on a former day
given, when they deprecated a discussion by a
side wind, they now had an opportunity of
deciding by the proposition of the hon. Ad-
nmiral respecting his hon, relation; and the
more the House investigated the conduct of
ministers, the more fully would they discharge
their duty.
Mr. Secretary Yorke did not intend to fol-
low the bon. member through the details of
his speech, because'nothing that had fallen
.from him appeared to him to require an an-
ftswer. He was anxious, however, to say a
few words, which he had not before an op-
portunity of doing, on the observations of the


hon. Admiral. The hon. Admiral had given
notice of a motion for certain papers, in con-
sequence of an aspersion which he conceiv-
ed to be thrown on the character of an ho-
nourable relation. His right hon. friend,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had dis-
tinctly stated; in answer to the hon. Admiral,
that'no such aspersion had been meant, either
by himself, oi- any other member of govern-
menti and had correctly repeated the lan-
guage he had used on the occasion. The
right hon. Secretary here re-stated what the
Chancellor of 'the Exchequer had before
stated in explanation, and insisted that no
direct nor implied aspersion was contained in
the terms used. Whatever conduct the
hon. Admiral should think proper-to observe,
would be for himself to determine; but af-
ter what had passed, he must bring forward
his motion, n t in consequence of any asper-
sion on the hon. General, for whom he felt
himself a very high respect as a meritorious
and distinguished officer, but as: a direct
charge on his Majesty's government in Ire-
land, which he should be ready to meet.
The right hon. Secretary wished also to
state a few words, which he had omitted on
a former day, in answer to an observation
which had been made by an hon. gentleman
(Mr. Elliot), by way of criticism, not of
crimination, respecting the Lord Lieutenant's
going to the Park on the night of the 23d of
July. The .usual residence of the Lord
Lieutenant was in the Park, whence he used
to return every day about two o'clock to the
Castle, to receive such information as might
.have been procured by the subordinate offi-
cers of the government. He had come to
the Castle, on the 23d, and after receiving
the information respecting the projected in-
surrection, had held a consultation on the
expediency of his remaining in the Castle,
the result of which was, that it was consi.
dered better for him to return to the Park,
as the circumstance of removing his family
to town might create considerable alarm.
Every body who knew his lordship, would
do him the justice to suppose that he would
not leave Dublin from apprehension on such
an occasion; nor was it probable that he
should consider a serjeant's guard in the Park4
a better security than a garrison of 4000 men
in Dublin.
Mr. Windbam thought, that as a charge
might arise out of the statement that had
been made, either against the Irish govern-
ment, or the Commander in Chief, that the
hon. Admiral might, notwithstanding the
explanation that had been given, bring for'
ward his motion, though not for criminal,
tion, for the justification of hi? hon, relay






PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 8.-Curates' Relief Bll.


tion.--The question was then put, and
the bill ordered to be read a third time to-
morrow.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, December 8.
Their lordships met pursuant to adjourn-
ment.-The English Bank Restriction Bill
was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, December 8.
[MrNUTES.]-The Malt Duty Bill, the
Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill, the
Irish Martial Law Bill, the East India Bonds
Bill, and the Qualification Indemnity Bill,
were severally read a third time, and pass-
ed.-The Pension Duty Bill, the Five
Million Loan Bill, the Expiring Laws Bill,
the Irish Corn Exportation Bill, the Irish
and the British Sugar Drawback Bills, the
Irish Silver Note Bill, the Curates' Relief'
Bill, and the Irish Oats Distillation Bill,
were reported, and ordered to be read a
third time to-morrow.-Lord Castlereagh
stated at the bar, that his Majesty had been
waited upon with the address of that House
upon the subject of his most gracious corn-
munication respecting General Burton
being taken into custody ; and that his Ma-
jesty had been pleased to receive the ad-
dress in the most gracious manner.-Iis
lordship informed the House qiso of the
gracious reception of the address respect-
ing the sums of money which that House
had voted and had yet to make good.-
The Portugal Wine Bonding Bill had se-
veral new clauses added, the most promi-
nlent of which was one extending the bene-
fit of, the act to the importers and proprie-
tors of Spanish Wine. The report was or-
dered to be received to-morrow.-The
Irish Inland Navigation Accounts were or-
dered to be printed.
[NAVAL INaUIay.]-Sir W. E/fovd ad-
verted t0 a motion which had been made by
him during'the,last session of Parliament,
respecting the dismissal of a gentleman from -
,his employment in his Majesty's dock-yards.
He wished now to know, and he was happy
to find that an hon. baronet was now in his
place in that House, who might possibly
have it in his power to inform him, whether
it was the intention of: the commissioners
appointed under the authority of that house,
to make any report upon the subject ? -
Sir C. Pole said, that in his opinion there


wai not any such an idea at present among
the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry.
Sir W. Elford then desired to be informed
if it was not intended to mention the name
of lhat gentleman, or make any observation
whatever upon the subject to which he al-
luded?
Sir C. Pole then told the hon. baronet that
most probably that gentleman's name might
be mentioned, but he did not think it a cir-
cumstance by any means likely to occur, that
any comment should be made upon the sub-
ject.
[CURATES' RELIEF BILL.]-On the Or-
der being read for receiving the report of the
Stipendiary Curates' Residence Bill,
The Chancellor of the Exchbequer observed,
that, in consequence of the absence of h b.
right hon. friend who had been the mover
of that bill, he thought it would be most
proper to postpone the consideration of that.
report for the present; and as he had no
doubt that the house would immediately
concur in that opinion, he should move that
the report ,be taken into further considera-'
tion to-morrow. There would most proba-
bly be a good deal of business then before,
the house, but it could easily be further post-_
poned till a more important discussion should
happen to arise. The consideration of the
report was then deferred till to-morrow.
[SIERRA LeoNA- COMPANY.]-Mr. H.
Thornton presented a petition from the Sierra
Leona Company, praying for pecuniary as-
sistance from Parliament.
The Speaker observed, that he thought it
his duty to inquire, before such a petition
was entertained as' the present, whether it
had received the approbation of his Majesty,
as it would, if the prayer should be finally
agreed to, be voting away the public money-
to the use of individuals, which requited that
fact to be first ascertained.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated,
that he thought there could be very little dif-
ference of opinion as to the probability, or
even the certainty, of his Majesty's giving ,t
a most gracious reception, as a petition for
a grant of 10,0001. had at a former period
received that sanction.
Mr. H. Thornton then moved, that the .pe-
tition be referred to a committee, to examine
the matter therein contained.
Mr. Dent stated, that the report of the
state of the company's funds had been so.
very favourable, that in his opinion, that
was in itself, the very best reason that pos-
sibly could be against granting the prayer of
a petition for parliamentary aid.-The ques-
tion was then put, and the petition referred
to a committee. *
*U u 2


[1670






PARL. DEBATES, DEc. 9.-Volunteers.


PfOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, December 9
[ IN1UTES.] -Counsel were heard 'at con-
siderable length for the Appellant, on the
appeall Cause from the Court of Chancery,
J. I. Keighly -v. the East India Company.
After which their lordships deferred the far-
ther hearing of the case till Tuesday.-Mr.
Hobhouse, accompanied byseveral Members,
brought up the following Bills from the
Coimamons, viz. The Annual Indemnity
Bill, the Malt Tax, the Place and Pension
Duty, the sugar Bounties Drawback, the
East India Bonds Duty, the Bank of Ireland,
restriction the Habeas Corpus Suspension
Bill, and the Irish Martial Law Continua-
" tjon Bills. They were severally read a first
time; the two last-mentioned bills were, on
the motion of lord Hawkesbury, ,ordered to
be printed his lordship at the same time
gave notice of his intention to move for the
second reading of those bills on Monday next.
[VOLUNTEERS.] -Earl Darnley, previous
to the Order of the Day being read, wished
to obtain some information on a subject
eorifessedly of the highest importance: see-
ing the noble secretary of state in his place,
he would take that opportunity. The sub-
ject, in his contemplation, was such as
not only that house, but many thousands of
his Majesty's subjects must regard with the
utmost concern. He alluded to the volun-
teers, respecting whom, he begged leave
to ask, if it was the intention of his Majes-
ty's ministers to propose any general regu-
lations previous to the ensuing recess.
Lord Hawkesbury shortly replied, that he
knew of no intention at present on the part
of his Majesty's government, to propose any
specific measure, previous to the recess, of.
the nature to which the noble earl alluded.
Earl Darnley resumed the topic: he by
no means wished, he said, to pin the noble
Secretary of State down to any particular
time, for proposing such a measure as he
had alluded to; he was fully aware, not
only of the importance, but of the delicacy,
of the subject. He repeated the anxious
-view in which it was very generally re-
garded. It was not his intention, however,
then to go into any detail upon the subject,
but there were one or two prominent
points, which struck him so forcibly, that he
-_pould not refrain from adverting to them,
ahdrendeavouring to press them opn the at-
tention qf the noble Secretary, as requiring
the most serious consideration of his Ma-
jesty's ministers, and calling for adequate
regulation. He first adverted to the con-


sideration of the way in which the services
of several' corps were originally accepted
on the part of government, which certainly
appeared to him to have been done on li-
beral principles, with respect to allowances,
&c. but in regard to those he had to ob-
serve, that a system had been latterly acted
upon, which appeared to him to be the.re-
verse of the former conduct of government
in that respect. The second consideration
to which the noble earl principally advert-
ed, and which he seemed to regard as one
of extreme delicacy and importance, was
the idea of the force in question, appearing,
in some points of view, as a species of mi-
litary democracy. He thought it incum-
bent on him thus early to throw out those
considerations, as meriting the most serious
and anxious attention on the part of his
Majesty's government. The 'noble earl
also alluded to certain difficulties which
had arisen under the present volunteer sys-
tem, which he thought it would be impor-
tant speedily to obviate: what he seemed
principally to advert to, was the regulation
of exemptions, &c.
Lord Hawkesbury, in the course of his re-
ply, observed, that he should avoid at pre-
sent entering into any detailed view what-
ever of the subject. He agreed with the
noble earl as to the great importance of
the subject; it was one therefore which
naturally attracted the serious attention of
his Majesty's government: their lordships,
however, would be at the same time aware
of the complexity and intricate nature of
the general subject, the variety of details
which it embraced, and the correspondent
difficulty of forming adequate regulations.
He agreed also with the noble Earl, that
certain difficulties had arisen in the progress
of that system of measures, but of that na-
ture as that they could not fairly be expect-
ed to be in the contemplation at the time,
of those by whom, under the circumstances
of the case, the bill was originally framed.
He repeated, that the subject certainly oc-
cupied the serious attention of his Majesty's
ministers; but while he made this avowal,
he wished to be understood, as by no means
committing himwlf with respect to the in-
troduction of any specific measure upon the
subj.ct.
[BEAN RESTRICTION BILL.]-;-The or-
der of the day being read, their lordships
resolved into a Committee on the Bank
Restriction Bill, Lord Walsingham in the
chair. The different clauses and provi-
sions ofthe bill were regularly gone through,
and approved by the Committee.-On the
consideration 9f the Preamble o.f the Bill,






16731- PARL. DEBATES, Dm

Lord King said, that if. he had been pre-
sent at the second reading of the bill, he
should have thought it his duty to have
urged, at some length, those arguments of
justice and policy which struck his mind
forcibly, as militating against the principle
of the bill. The present not being the re-
gular time for discussing the general prin-
ciple, he should say very little on that part
of the subject. He could not, however,
avoid expressing his surprise, that a mea-
sure of this importance should be so much
treated as a matter of course; that the bill
should be read twice within two days after
it had been sent from the other House, and
that it should have been read for the second
time without any previous notice, and with-
out even the usual formality of a few in-
troductory remarks from one of his Majes-
ty's ministers. No inquiry was instituted ;
no reason was assigned for. the passing of
the bill, nor was any information laid before
the House to prove the expediency of per-
severing in a system, which violated all ge-
neral principles, and could only be justified
by the most urgent necessity. Some very
strong reasons ought surely to be assigned
for continuing, to a distant and indefinite
period, a measure which had not been found
necessary in former wars, nor at any period
prior to the year 1797, when the restriction
was first adopted. It was at that time ac-
knowledged to be a measure of the most
questionable nature, and open to the most
dangerous abuses. It was now asserted by
ministers, and the partisans of the Bank,
that the privilege had not been abused, and
that no public inconvenience had been ex-
perienced. His lordship thought, that it
was a great deal too much to take all this
for granted, and that it ought, prior to a
continuance of the measure, to be made the
subject of inquiry. He Was convinced, for
his own part, that. the contrary was the
fact; and, though the abuse had not been
flagrant or exces-ive, that the Bank had yield-
ed, in a certain degree, to the temptation, and
extended the quantity of their notes beyond
the proper limits. By the present measure,
the interest of the Bank was put in opposi-
tion to its duty ; and in such a competition
it was not difficult to conjecture which
principle was likely to prevail among a
commercial body. Whilst the measure was
recent, the Directors appeared to have con-
ducted themselves with great prudence;
but since ,the end of the year 1798, there
was reason to believe, that they had uni-
formly, though in different degrees, been
guilty.of a breach-of. their trust. He pro-
ceeded to state shortly the principles upon


c9.-Banzk Resatrsc'.,n BUl. {1674

which this opinion was founded. An ex-
cessive multiplication, of Bank Notes, so
long as they cannot be exchanged for. spe-
cie, had precisely the same effect as- a de-
basement of the current coin; and as- the
bullion price of silver was the most accurate
test of the purity of a coinage, it was the
best standard of the degree of depreciation
produced by an excessive paper currency.
In ordinary circumstances the bullion price
of silver seldom much exceeded the mint
price, or 5s. 2d. per ounce, or if there was
any occasional excess, it was not of long
continuance. But, since the year 1798, it
had uniformly exceeded that price, being at
some periods (in 1800 and 1801) 5s. 1id1
and 6s. At present it was 5s. 8d; being
an excess of 9 per cent. above the mint
price. He knew that there were other
causes which might .produce a temporary
effect on the price of bullion ; but he cofi-
sidered this uniform and unexampled in-
crease of price, corresponding, as it did,
with the increase in quantity ot Bank Notes,
and the depression of foreign exchanges, as
affording a decisive evidence of misconduct
in the Directors of the Pank. His lordship
illustrated this position by a great variety of
calculations and details. He said, that he
should propose an amendment to the bill,
calculated to give publicity to the proceed,
ings of the Bank, which might operate as a
salutary check upon the'Director'. He
proposed, that the Directors should be
obliged to publish quarterly, in the London-
Gazette, during the period of the restric-
tion, an account of the amount of their
notes in circulation on the 25th of each of the
three preceding months. Bycomparing the
amount of the notes with the bullion price
of silver, and the state of foreign exchange,
the public would be enabled to judge at the
time, whether the abuse was increasing to
any pernicious extent. His lordship con-
cluded by moving a clause in the Committee
to this effect.
Lord IIawkesbury deemed it unnecessary
to follow the noble lord; through the great-
est part of what he had advanced, as being
partly applicable to the principle of the bill,
which was not then under discussion, and
as partly foreign from the subject regularly
under consideration: there- existed, how-
ever, a great and -an obvious necessity for"
the present measure: the bill proceeded on '
similar grounds with that of 1798, and at
least an equal necessity existed for the Re-
striction now as then. The period of the
present bill was somewhat different from
that of the above year, and was in ils na-
ture more definite, He-differed from the






2675J] 1 1ARL. DEBATES, D

noble 'lord as to the causes'assigned by him
,for the unfavourable state of the Exchange
at different periods. He had some serious
objection's to the adoption of the regulation
proposed by the noble lord; first, there was
no sudch.provision deemed necessary in any
:of the former bills which had been enacted
on the subject, though, any reasons which
might now apply for its adoption, obtained
.at former periods in equal force.-Secondly,
as the bank Directors had never, in the
.smallest degree, abused the discretionary
power vested in them, they were, on the
contrary, always most willing to come for-
ward with every necessary information on
the subject, and they never .hrunk from any
inquiry whatever. He -additionally object-
ed to the proposition, as it would tend
(though perhaps such a thing might not be
in the noble lord's contemplation) to reflect
.upon the Directors, a body who, so far from
meriting any reflection upon their conduct,
Shad uniformly discharged the trusts reposed
in them with prudence, caution, and cir-
cumspection. However, the House would
_be aware, that in negativing the motion of
the noble lord, neither he, nor any other
peer, was precluded from coming forward
at subsequent periods with. motions for spe-
cific information upon the subject ; and, in-
deed, such.proceedings had taken place, in
xnany instances, on the suggestions of mem-
bers of~both.Houses of Parliament. On the
whole, he deemed it his duty to oppose the
noble lord's motion.
LordKing observed, in reply, that if he had
not been fully understood by the noble lord,
-he had no difficulty in distinctly stating, that
he imputed-blame to the Bank, and it was on
'this account that he had moved the amend-
ment. He thought that the principle of
publicity would be better secured, and the
-Bank Directors more effectually admonish-
ed of the importance of their trust, by a
positive parliamentary enactment, than by
leaving it to the discretion of any individual
peer, who might choose to move for an
account of their notes. He wished it to ap-
pear upon the face of the bill, that the dan-
"ger of abuse was foreseen by the legislature,
and guarded against by the only expedient
of which the case .would admit. With re-,
spect to the observation,, that such a clause
was unusual, and -that it had not found a
place in former bills, he 'would only say,
that it was a principle which militated
* against all legislative improvements what-
ever. It was one of those general remarks
which applied equally to every..new pro-
position, and was, therefore, undeserving of
attention upop any.


Et. 9--Rank Restriction Bill. [ 1676

Lord Hawkesbury contended, that such a
consideratioii was a reason against the adop-
tion of the clause, inasmuch as the omission
of the provision in the former bills, was
productive of no injurious tendency what-
ever, nor of any ground of complaint. With
respect to the unfavourable state of the
course of Exchange at the periods alluded
to, it was by no means to be attributed to
the issue of paper from the Bank, but in a
greater degree to the immense sums which
were necessarily sent out of the ,country at
the tliqe for the payment of subsidies, and
in consequence of the alarming scarcity
which then prevailed. -The clause was ne-
ga:ived.-On the question heing put re-
specting the third reading of the bill,
Lord Grenville' expressed his opinion,
without meaning in the least to resist the
,progress of the bill, that the passing of such
a measure as the present should not be 're-
garded as a matter of course in that House.
He should have to offer a few observations,
which he thought it incumbent on him to
advance, on the occasion of the third read-
ing, respecting the measure, and more espe-
cially on points of considerable importance
connected with the subject of the bill. He
should therefore propose that the bill be
read a third time on Monday.-Adjourned
till to-morrow.


HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, December 9.
[MINUTES.] The Speaker acquainted'
the House, that in obedience to the order of
the House made on the loth of August last,
he had transmitted the Vote of 'Thanks of
the House to the different Lords Lieutenant
of Counties- in Gt. Britain, and to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, to be by them com-
mnnicated to the Officers and Privates of the
different Corps in the respective paits of the
United Empire; and thdt he had received,
through the Lords Lieutenant of Counties,
and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, answers
expressive of the thanks of the different
Corps for the notice which Parliame.nt had
been pleased to take of their zeal and exer-
tion.-Mr. Forster, -from the Exchequer,
presented at the, bar an account of the sums
of. money issued by his Majesty pursuant to
addresses of the House, which had not been-
made good by Parliament. Ordered to lie
on the table.-Mr. Hobhouse brought up
the report of the Portugal Wine Bonding
Bill, which was received, and read a third
time and passed.-The Malt Tax Bill, the
X'5,000,000 Exchequer Bills Bill, the k-






PARL DEBATES, Dec. 9.--Army East.mate.


pairing Liws Bill, the Irish. Provisions
Bill, Irish Sugar Drawback Bill, English-
Sugar Drawback Bill, Irish Promissory
Note Bill, Curates' Relief Bill, and Irish
Oats Distillation Hill, were read a third
time, passed, and ordered to the Lords.-
The London Dock Bill was read a second
time and referred to a Select Committee.--
Mr. Secretary Yorke presented at the bar a
return of- the Volunteer and. Yeomanry
Corps, as far as the same could be made
out, in compliance with an order of the
House, dated the 1oth of August. Order-
ed to lie on the table, and to be printed.-
Sir F. Burdett brought up the Pancras Over-
seer's Bill. Read a first time; ordered to
be read a second time.-A new writ was
ordered, on the motion of Mr. Sargent, for
the election of a Burgess to serve in Parlia-
ment for the Borough of Westloe, in the
room of Thom.s Smith, Esq. who had ac-
cepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
ARMY FSTIMATES.j-The Secretary at
War (Mr. Bragge) moved theorder of the day
that the House do resolve itself into a Com-
mittee of Supply, and that the Estimates
presented by him on a former day be refer-
red therdto.-The House having accordingly
resolved itself into a Committee, Mr. Hob-
house in the chair: -
The Secretary at War rose, and observed,
that -notwithstanding the magnitude and
importance of the subject to which the esti-
mates now under consideration referred, he
should not feel it necessary for him to take
up much of the time of the Committee in
adverting to the different items, or explain-
ing the nature'and grounds of the different
estimates to which it was his duty to direct
their attEntion. It would be altogether
needless to dwell upon the particulars, be-
cause the estimates voted last session, com-
prehended nearly the whole of those now
produced, and gentlemen having been fami-
liar with the nature and extent of the for-
mer, it was the less incumbent on him to
occupy much of their time in his statement
and explanation of the latter. He was
bound, however, to acquaint the Committee',
that the estimates now before them did not
comprehend the whole military establish-
ment of the year, because, from the nature
and extent of the different services included
in it, and the possible variation which might
arise from a possible alteration of the cir-
cumstances and state of the country, the
whole could not with accuracy be ascertain-
ed, so as to be produced to Parliament in
the: shape of an unquestionable document.
RJe. could .assur them, nevertheless, that


whatever estimates were not,' or could not,
be laid before the House in the present in-u
stance, should be submitted.to the A~sisider-.
ation of Parliament ata more advaQced pe-
riod of the session, when tlicy could be
made up with sufficient accuracy. The es-
timates now before the Committee wcrc,
classed under ten heads, namely-


1. Guards, Garrisons,
&c. ......... ..
For Great Britain
For Ireland ....
Total
2. Forces in the Plan-
tations, &c.......
3- India Forces for
Great Britain....
4. Troops and Com-
panies for recruit-
ing do. -for Great
Britain .. ....
5. Recruiting & Con-
tinCencies for Gt.
Britain. ...... ..
6. General, and Staff
.Officers, with a
stte of the parti-
culars of charges
7. Embodied Militia
and Fencihble In-
fantry for Great
Blitain ........
For Ireland ......

Total
8. Clothing for ditto
9. Contingencies for
ditto for England
For Ireland......

Total
lo. Volunteer Corps for


Numbeys. .

129,039 3rS56 9'4
ai i f,r68 2.11

4,2766104. tz 9S


38,6.-,

22,897


1,t74,5c9 16 .

545,628 4 a


S33 29,859 14 9.

180,00o 0 oe


154647 3 1'


109,947 2,T5o,965 To 6
640,657 17 6

2,791,6z2 7 6.

25,793 14 6
50,coo o 0
11,129 7 0

6r,129 7 0


Great Britain.... 730,000 o *'
For Ireland...... 1,290,567 13 it
Tot l 2,020,;6'7 13 tI
For Great Britain 301,046 8,346.86o 14 o
For Ireland...... 3>103,421 o .P
Deduct for IndiaForces 22,897 545,6z8 4 z
Total for Great Britain 278,149 780,232 9 ta
Grand Total I0,901,75 10o a

To each of these it would not be neces-
sary for him to advert particularly; and he '
should, therefore, confine his observations
to those items which, in exceeding the cor-
respondent items in the estimates submitted'
last session to Parliament, seemned-to claim:
a more minute explanation. The first item,
therefore, to which he felt it his duty to call
the attend tion of the Committee, related to
the force proposed to be voted for guard.


' V






PARL. DEBATES, DEC. 9.-Army Estimates.


and garrisons in the United Kingdom. It
Would be in the recollection of the'House,
that the"sumber voted for that service last
sessiona,partly in an early part of it, and
partly +n the month of June, amounted in
theAi hole to 108,901 men. The force now
,proposed to be voted for that service
amounted to 167,669, between which, and
the number voted last year, the Committee
would' perceive there was a difference of
58,768. But the major part of that diffe-
rence would be made up by the army of
reserve, which amounted to 39,467 men.
This-force was distributed either in aug-
mentation of the old battalions, or in form-
ing eighteen second battalions of rooo men
each, or in sixteen battalions of reserve,
consisting of about 7'0 each. This state-
mnent would be sufTicient to give the Com-
mittee a clear idea of the augmentation,
which was proposed to be made to the re-
gular military establishment. The Life
Guards were to be augmented by 12,456,
the twenty-four Regiments of Dragoons
were to be augmented by a proportion,
# which, in 'the whole, would amount to 4272
Smen; and the sixteen Regiments of Foot
.Guards were to have an augmentation, not
exceeding 2ooo men inwthe whole, making
an augmentation of about eighteen thou-
sand. This was the only addition that was
proposed to be now, made to the regular
army, with the exception of a small addition
of 20o or 230 men to some of the old regi-
Smerits of the line, and an inconsiderable ad-
dition that was to be made to some garri-
son battalions and fencible regiments, which
-would not in' the whole amount to any ma-
terial augmentation.-The next head to
which it was his duty to call the attention
of the Committee, was certainly a large
one, he meant the general staff establish-
ment. But when the situation of the coun-
try and the circumstances of the essential
services rendered by that department, were
considered, he trusted it would not appear
excessive.. The sum at which this service
was estimated, was 154,647 1. a sum though
large, not extravagant, when it was recol-
lcteed, that so many brigade officers were
. found necessary to train the volunteer force
of the -country. The.embodied militia for
Q. Britain and Ireland, amounted to 109,947.
The Restrve Army of Ireland amounted to
9970 men, of which 7055 were to be at-
t:ched to the old regiments by small additions
of 220 and 230 to. each battalion. The dif-
-frence between that number and the whole
force, he allowed, would volunteer into the
line. The onjy addition.proposed this year
was about 1827 to the dragoon guards on


that establishment. The only other, head to
which he found it necessary to a'dvert parti-
cularly related to the Volunteers. He should
consider them under two heads, first for G.
Britain, next for Ireland. Any calculation
under the head of G. Britain, would neces-
sarily be loose and subject to much unavoid-
able inaccuracy, as, it must necessarily de-
pend on so many circumstances, and be re-
gulated by the a. tual exigency, of the coun-
try. He did not pretend,,therefore, to sub-
mit an exact and accurate estimate of the
expense under this head, though it was cal-
culated as nearly as possible on the presum-
ed extent, to which the service of the year
might require it to be carried. For the Vo-
lunteer Corps, he estimated that a sum of
730,0001. would be necessary, from the 25th
of Dec. 1803, to the 25th of Dec. 1804;
but it was here necessary for him to state,
that as the clothing had been provided for
in the expenditure for the present year, that
item made no part of the estimate. The
estimate had been calculated for the number
to which the Volunteer Corps were supposed
to amount, but by the accountwhich had been
this day presented to the House, it appeared
that the actual number far exceeded the sup-
posed strength of the volunteer force. By this
account, it appeared, that the Volunteer
Corps of G. Britain amounted to 379,943
men. The estimates of the expences-of such
a' body, must necessarily be complex and dif-
ficult to be ascertained exactly, as the dif-
ferent rates of pay, according to the differ-
ent periods of the year at which they came
forward, should be taken into the account,
as well as the nature of the service, whether
permanent, or only for exercise, on which
they may be employed. The sum, there-
fore, at which the estimate was taken, would
not appear large, when it was recollected
that the number fc.r which it was calculated,
was only 320,000. Of the Volunteer force
45,314 served without pay; 42,500 infan-
try, and 2,500 cavalry. Great part of -the
clothing had been voted in June, and there-
fore was not in the estimate: but the allow-
ance of is. per day, for 20 days service, for
the purpose of training, to such as should
accept pay, was estimated at 190,0001.-
Agency Officers, and Field Officers, -in con-
sequence of the alteration that in each re-,
spect had been found necessary in the origi-
nal regulations, which had been made in
June, required an additional expense, which
did not, however, exceed 20,0001. This,
hewas aware, was a loose and rough esti-
mate of the expense that would be necessary,
but he was persuaded that it was rather un-
der than over what the service would require.


[1670'




71 74JK, -
JOW


16 1] PARL. DEBATES, Dic

With :regrd to Treland, the state of that
country required thaT the estimates should
N ff-gher than in proportion for G. Britain,
as well as to provide for services performed,
as for those which may hereafter be neces-
sary. The calculation of the numbers of
the Volunteers raised in England was under
the actual amoutit ; but the estimate for
Ireland exceeded the-known amount, which
was taken at 70,000, but presumed capable
of being raTsed, if the situation of the coun-
try should require it, to 80,0001. There was
also a considerable difference in the estimate
for the two countries, which was unavoida-
bly to be calculated in proportion to the
time the volunteers should be called out on
actual service. He supposed that the whole
of the Irish volunteers would be out four
months in the year.-But though the allow-
ance under this head would be larger than
the estimate for English corps, he thought,
it right to state, that, except in case of inva-
sion, when they should necessarily be em-
ployed on actual .service, the Irish volun-
teers received no pay when merely out for
exercising, nor when on duty, unless the.
men should be actually and efficiently pre-
sent at muster on their parade. He had
stated the present volunteer force of Ire-
land to be 70,000. The estimate, how-
ever, had been made, on a supposition that
the number could, and would be considera-
Sbly increased ; and he had stated enough,
he thought, to shew that the calculation was
not excessive. He had now stated all' addi-
- tions proposed to be made to the estimates
of last year. He had yet to observe, that
there was no estimate respecting a part of
the military establishment, which it had been
usual to include in the Army Estimates; he
meant the foreign corps employed in the ser-
vice of this country, some of which had al-
ready been provided for; and others were
now raising in different parts of Europe.
The House, he trusted, would excuse him
for not stating precisely the amount of the
expence of this branch of the service, from
the uncertainty of the extent-to which it
might be carried, and good policy would
dictate the carrying it as far as circum-
stances would allow. Though he could not
now lay before the committee the account,
he should certainly do so after the recess,
and particularly as his Majesty would have
to resort to Parliament for the exercise of
his prerogative. There was another blanch
of the military establishment which was usu-
ally submitted amongst the other estituates ;
he had it hot in his power to lay before the
committee in the present instance, and
which he was the more induced to advert to
VoL,. IV.


* 9.-.lrnmy Ema ['683

from the question which had b t to
lim on the subject, on a former i by
an honi. Admiral, he alluded te thi. ck
department. This deparlmerit hId pf -
avoidablyj from the nature of the s 'nn
of the country, carried to a much great
extent than on any tbrmr occasion. Th
expence, however, was not so much incurr-
ed for regular barracks, as in providing
winter cantoiments for the forces on" the
coast. It was impossible yet to procure iuchl
returns as would enable him to lay an accu-
rate estimate before the House,'and he was ,
convinced, that the expence would: not be
deemed improperly incurred, when the House
would be aware, that the whole effective
force of the country was at present covered
by barracks. He should use all possible di-
ligence in making out the account, -and
though he was not competent at present-to
bring it forward, he was prepared to give
any gentleman who might be desirous of in-
formation on the subject, every satisfaction
in his power, either with respect to the de-
partment itself, or to the contracts which
had been entered into respecting. it, or any
other point to which enquiry might. be6:di-
rected. He should be sorry that forms
should preclude any gentleman from seeking
information, and he would be happy to conim
municate any- in his power. He had nowe
stated the grounds upon- which he should
move a vote of the Estimates, which was a
subject intimately connected with the most,
important interests of the empire. -He
trusted the House would be sensible of the
advantage of improving, by every possible
means, the disposition which prevailed in'
the country. Not only the Parliament had
called for the exertion of every. energy of
the country, but the people had manifested
an eagerness in the cause, and a desire to
employ every energy 'they possessed, even
before they were called. He had thought .it
his duty thus to state in a plain manner, and
he hoped he had succeeded in making him-
self clearly understood, the nature .ofthe
Estimates which he proposed to move.; Hq
should now therefore move, the first Reso-
lution.-On the .question being put, .
Mr. Windham began by adverting to the
manner in which the business. had been
opened by the hon. Secretary, ,which;l, lid
said, though very'proper at any ordinary
time, and though possibly very proper then,
was so different)from the viev' whichh he
felt himself compelled to take of the sub-
ject, that his observation, he feared, would
appear very little to arise out of tihe ,site-
ments which the House had just heard, His.
view of the subject went to the general de- ,
~xx


A~.






'.183'J . DEBATES, Dce. 9.-Arny, Estimates.

fence. e country both present and .to th>f certainly could
cont er that notion, the diltcoilty was Treaty of.Amiens, as
to lki where to begin, or how to confine, the 'defence of the
th h us-ion within such bounds as he been a subject nev
Sh vish to prescribe to it. It was inm- minds. But as he did
e, in the course of such an inquiry, with the hon. gentle
botor bring ibraard many points that must mean and niggardly t
bearr hard upon the hue. geCIt. opposite. cessions where the m
4He could not arrai.;n the measures of the isted in such abtndar
time without arraiguing the conduct of tent to date his exa
those, by ,hliom these measure, %%ere plan- more recent period, a
ned;l nor could he suffer hi. mind to be so intervening space b,
engrossed and absorbed, as seeined to be Amiens, and the 8th
the case ith man\, Lb the mere business which his Majesty's
of defence, aq tu loe, all thought about the to Parliament. He
conduct and character of tho-e to t hom the have been perfectly
national aff'jir ,ereentrusted. This,though moment peace was
in some respect, a secondary consideration, *what circumstances,
inasmuch a.; it nmut be founded on proofs. according to the es
to be derived from an examination of their cases, were to reduc
conduct, was, nevertheless, a very import- your fleet, dispose
.ant and necessary one, was connected implements of war,
with every part of the subject, and might little more than the
'serve, perhaps, as well as any that could be refuse for five guilt
"chosen, to present the subject in that point would be happy nos
of view, in which it was most important to discharge others, wh
consider it. His own general opinion on back at all. All this
this head, he could hot better describe, than be right, and that,
-in some lines which gentlemen might have of.these accustomed
aeen on Inn windows and shutters, where' never have been able
the iviiter, speakingof the faults ofmen and try, or to satisfy there
women, and a ll oi ing that many faults be- which they had mac
long to men, concludes, most injuriously and not a mere mak
and un allantly, consider their condt
S.--poor women have but two; riod subsequent to th
There's inthing.'good they say, and nothing establishments of th
S. rt they do. happily brought to t
`Theke lines, however bad the poetry, and was proposed they
however false the sentiment, in its original reductions had been
" application, were, lie was sb.rry to say, per- quent alteration ha
fectly descriptive of his opinion of his Ma- in parliament might
Sjety's present ministers. That height not thing more: all the
seem to say Ihis at random, without foun- as much to be re-cc
dation or proof, he would beg only to take try had never been '
a short view of their conduct, as applicable "ters full credit for tl
to the actual state of things. If he were to less state in which
Proceed strictly in this inquiry, though by be would proceed
no means unjuilly, he should take up their change was which t
conduct from the motient of the Treaty of and what the mean!
Aniiens. It was froii that period, accord- sessed for that purp
ing to the opinion of many at the time, ac- prison of the mea
cording to their own opinion, as declared -work done, a-judgm
sine, that measures of precaution and de- to the degree of bh
fence ought to have, begun. They who to their conduct. A
had declared, that Irom the moment of the to adopt a method,
sign.atire of that treaty, the conduct of the played on other sub
'enemy was a continued series of violence, in- quantum of objects
sialt, and agcso.:; they whose partisans "ed with exactness, n
'had'told us, that he must be nature's fool,' for-assigning at least
and not the hon. gentleman's,who could ever He had heard, where
e believe in the durability of- that treaty;. I tqnt election charge


refuse to ccept the
the period from'which .
country ought toi
er absent from their
not wish to deal hardly
men,; as it would be
o be sparing of con-
aterials of charge ex-
ice, he would be con-
mination from a much
.nd to leave out all the
etweerr the Treaty, of
of March, the day on
message was brought
would suppose it to
right, that from the
made, no matter with
you were to. proceed
tablished rule in such
e'your army, dismantle
of all your stock and
sell off gun-boats for
value of the old iron,
neas men whom you,
v to get back for fifty;
om you could not get.
he would conclude to
without the observance
forms, ministers would
to persuade the coun-
nselves, that the peace.
de was a real peace,
.e-believe. He would
ict only during the pe-
e 8th of'Maich. The
e country were then
ie standard at which it
should refai'n ; all the
completed; no subse-
d taken place; a vote
have passed, but no-
means of defence were
collected as if the coun-
tt war. Giving minis-
he completely defence-
the country then was,
to consider, what the
they had since effected,
s which they had pos-
ose; so that by a com-
,ns possessed, and the
ent might be formed as
amine or merit ascribable
knd here he would wish
such'as was often em-
jects, where, when the
could nQt be ascertain-
neans were resorted to
Sa maximum or minimum.
e in the case of exorbi-
s, in a bill for cockadess




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