• TABLE OF CONTENTS
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 Title Page
 Table of Contents
 March 1830
 House of Lords - Wednesday, March...
 House of Commons - Wednesday, March...
 House of Commons - Thursday, March...
 House of Lords - Friday, March...
 House of Commons - Friday, March...
 House of Lords - Monday, March...
 House of Commons - Monday, March...
 House of Lords - Tuesday, March...
 House of Commons - Tuesday, March...
 House of Lords - Wednesday, March...
 House of Commons - Wednesday, March...
 House of Lords - Thursday, March...
 House of Commons - Thursday, March...
 House of Lords - Friday, March...
 House of Commons - Friday, March...
 House of Lords - Monday, March...
 House of Commons - Monday, March...
 House of Commons - Tuesday, March...
 House of Lords - Wednesday, March...
 House of Commons - Thursday, March...
 House of Lords - Friday, March...
 House of Lords - Monday, March...
 House of Commons - Monday, March...
 House of Lords - Tuesday, March...
 House of Commons - Tuesday, March...
 House of Lords - Wednesday, March...
 April 1830
 House of Commons - Thursday, April...
 House of Lords - Friday, April...
 House of Commons - Friday, April...
 House of Lords - Monday, April...
 House of Commons - Monday, April...
 House of Lords - Tuesday, April...
 House of Commons - Tuesday, April...
 House of Lords - Wednesday, April...
 Index to debates in the House of...
 Index of names - House of...
 Index of names - House of...
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Title: Hansard's parliamentary debates
ALL VOLUMES CITATION THUMBNAILS PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00072012/00008
 Material Information
Title: Hansard's parliamentary debates
Physical Description: 361 v. : ; 23-25 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Great Britain -- Parliament
Hansard, T. C ( Thomas Curson ), 1776-1833
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: S.l
Manufacturer: T.C. Hansard
Publication Date: 1829-1891
 Subjects
Subject: Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Great Britain -- 19th century   ( lcsh )
 Notes
Dates or Sequential Designation: New ser., v. 21 (Mar./June 1829)-v. 25 (June/July 1830); 3rd ser., v. 1 (Oct./Dec. 1830)-v. 356 (July/Aug. 1891).
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00072012
Volume ID: VID00008
Source Institution: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 07655885
lccn - sn 85062630
 Related Items
Preceded by: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Succeeded by: Parliamentary debates (1892-1908)

Table of Contents
    Title Page
        Title Page
    Table of Contents
        Table of Contents 1
        Table of Contents 2
        Table of Contents 3
        Table of Contents 4
        Table of Contents 5
        Table of Contents 6
    March 1830
        Page 1 (MULTIPLE)
        Page 3-4
        Page 5-6
        Page 7-8
        Page 9-10
        Page 11-12
        Page 13-14
        Page 15-16
        Page 17-18
        Page 19-20
        Page 21-22
        Page 23-24
        Page 25-26
        Page 27-28
        Page 29-30
        Page 31-32
        Page 33-34
        Page 35-36
        Page 37-38
        Page 39-40
        Page 41-42
        Page 43-44
        Page 45-46
        Page 47-48
        Page 49-50
        Page 51-52
        Page 53-54
        Page 55-56
        Page 57-58
        Page 59-60
        Page 61-62
        Page 63-64
        Page 65-66
        Page 67-68
    House of Lords - Wednesday, March 10
        Page 69-70
    House of Commons - Wednesday, March 10
        Page 71-72
        Page 73-74
        Page 75-76
        Page 77-78
        Page 79-80
        Page 81-82
        Page 83-84
        Page 85-86
        Page 87-88
        Page 89-90
        Page 91-92
        Page 93-94
        Page 95-96
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        Page 99-100
        Page 101-102
        Page 103-104
        Page 105-106
        Page 107-108
        Page 109-110
        Page 111-112
        Page 113-114
        Page 115-116
        Page 117-118
        Page 119-120
        Page 121-122
        Page 123-124
        Page 125-126
        Page 127-128
        Page 129-130
        Page 131-132
        Page 133-134
        Page 135-136
        Page 137-138
        Page 139-140
        Page 141-142
        Page 143-144
        Page 145-146
        Page 147-148
        Page 149-150
        Page 151-152
        Page 153-154
        Page 155-156
        Page 157-158
        Page 159-160
        Page 161-162
        Page 163-164
        Page 165-166
    House of Commons - Thursday, March 11
        Page 167-168
        Page 169-170
        Page 171-172
        Page 173-174
        Page 175-176
        Page 177-178
        Page 179-180
        Page 181-182
        Page 183-184
        Page 185-186
        Page 187-188
        Page 189-190
        Page 191-192
        Page 193-194
        Page 195-196
        Page 197-198
        Page 199-200
        Page 201-202
        Page 203-204
        Page 205-206
        Page 207-208
        Page 209-210
        Page 211-212
        Page 213-214
        Page 215-216
        Page 217-218
        Page 219-220
        Page 221-222
    House of Lords - Friday, March 12
        Page 223-224
    House of Commons - Friday, March 12
        Page 225-226
        Page 227-228
        Page 229-230
        Page 231-232
        Page 233-234
        Page 235-236
        Page 237-238
        Page 239-240
        Page 241-242
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        Page 245-246
        Page 247-248
        Page 249-250
        Page 251-252
        Page 253-254
        Page 255-256
        Page 257-258
        Page 259-260
        Page 261-262
        Page 263-264
        Page 265-266
        Page 267-268
        Page 269-270
        Page 271-272
        Page 273-274
        Page 275-276
        Page 277-278
        Page 279-280
        Page 281-282
        Page 283-284
        Page 285-286
        Page 287-288
        Page 289-290
        Page 291-292
        Page 293-294
    House of Lords - Monday, March 15
        Page 295-296
    House of Commons - Monday, March 15
        Page 297-298
        Page 299-300
        Page 301-302
        Page 303-304
        Page 305-306
        Page 307-308
        Page 309-310
        Page 311-312
        Page 313-314
        Page 315-316
        Page 317-318
        Page 319-320
        Page 321-322
        Page 323-324
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        Page 327-328
        Page 329-330
        Page 331-332
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        Page 337-338
        Page 339-340
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        Page 349-350
        Page 351-352
        Page 353-354
        Page 355-356
        Page 357-358
        Page 359-360
        Page 361-362
        Page 363-364
    House of Lords - Tuesday, March 16
        Page 365-366
        Page 367-368
        Page 369-370
        Page 371-372
        Page 373-374
    House of Commons - Tuesday, March 16
        Page 375-376
        Page 377-378
        Page 379-380
        Page 381-382
        Page 383-384
        Page 385-386
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        Page 411-412
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        Page 415-416
        Page 417-418
        Page 419-420
        Page 421-422
        Page 423-424
        Page 425-426
        Page 427-428
        Page 429-430
    House of Lords - Wednesday, March 17
        Page 431-432
        Page 433-434
        Page 435-436
        Page 437-438
        Page 439-440
        Page 441-442
        Page 443-444
        Page 445-446
        Page 447-448
        Page 449-450
        Page 451-452
        Page 453-454
    House of Commons - Wednesday, March 17
        Page 455-456
        Page 457-458
        Page 459-460
        Page 461-462
        Page 463-464
        Page 465-466
        Page 467-468
        Page 469-470
        Page 471-472
    House of Lords - Thursday, March 18
        Page 473-474
        Page 475-476
        Page 477-478
        Page 479-480
        Page 481-482
        Page 483-484
        Page 485-486
        Page 487-488
        Page 489-490
        Page 491-492
        Page 493-494
        Page 495-496
        Page 497-498
        Page 499-500
        Page 501-502
        Page 503-504
        Page 505-506
        Page 507-508
        Page 509-510
        Page 511-512
        Page 513-514
        Page 515-516
        Page 517-518
        Page 519-520
        Page 521-522
        Page 523-524
        Page 525-526
        Page 527-528
        Page 529-530
        Page 531-532
        Page 533-534
        Page 535-536
        Page 537-538
    House of Commons - Thursday, March 18
        Page 539-540
        Page 541-542
        Page 543-544
        Page 545-546
        Page 547-548
        Page 549-550
        Page 551-552
        Page 553-554
        Page 555-556
        Page 557-558
        Page 559-560
        Page 561-562
        Page 563-564
        Page 565-566
        Page 567-568
        Page 569-570
        Page 571-572
        Page 573-574
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        Page 577-578
        Page 579-580
        Page 581-582
        Page 583-584
        Page 585-586
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        Page 589-590
        Page 591-592
        Page 593-594
        Page 595-596
        Page 597-598
        Page 599-600
        Page 601-602
        Page 603-604
        Page 605-606
        Page 607-608
        Page 609-610
        Page 611-612
    House of Lords - Friday, March 19
        Page 613-614
        Page 615-616
        Page 617-618
    House of Commons - Friday, March 19
        Page 619-620
        Page 621-622
        Page 623-624
        Page 625-626
        Page 627-628
        Page 629-630
        Page 631-632
        Page 633-634
        Page 635-636
        Page 637-638
        Page 639-640
        Page 641-642
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        Page 649-650
        Page 651-652
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        Page 655-656
        Page 657-658
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        Page 661-662
        Page 663-664
        Page 665-666
        Page 667-668
        Page 669-670
        Page 671-672
    House of Lords - Monday, March 22
        Page 673-674
        Page 675-676
        Page 677-678
        Page 679-680
        Page 681-682
        Page 683-684
        Page 685-686
        Page 687-688
        Page 689-690
        Page 691-692
    House of Commons - Monday, March 22
        Page 693-694
        Page 695-696
        Page 697-698
        Page 699-700
        Page 701-702
        Page 703-704
        Page 705-706
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        Page 773-774
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        Page 777-778
        Page 779-780
    House of Commons - Tuesday, March 23
        Page 781-782
        Page 783-784
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        Page 787-788
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        Page 817-818
        Page 819-820
        Page 821-822
        Page 823-824
        Page 825-826
    House of Lords - Wednesday, March 24
        Page 827-828 (MULTIPLE)
        Page 829-830
        Page 831-832
        Page 833-834
        Page 835-836
        Page 837-838
        Page 839-840
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    House of Commons - Thursday, March 25
        Page 845-846
        Page 847-848
        Page 849-850
        Page 851-852
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        Page 913-914
        Page 915-916
        Page 917-918
    House of Lords - Friday, March 26
        Page 919-920 (MULTIPLE)
        Page 921-922
        Page 923-924
        Page 925-926
        Page 927-928
        Page 929-930
        Page 931-932
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        Page 939-940
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        Page 949-950
        Page 951-952
        Page 953-954
        Page 955-956
        Page 957-958
    House of Lords - Monday, March 29
        Page 959-960
        Page 961-962
        Page 963-964
        Page 965-966
        Page 967-968
        Page 969-970
        Page 971-972
        Page 973-974
        Page 975-976
        Page 977-978
        Page 979-980
        Page 981-982
        Page 983-984
    House of Commons - Monday, March 29
        Page 985-986
        Page 987-988
        Page 989-990
        Page 991-992
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        Page 1025-1026
        Page 1027-1028
        Page 1029-1030
        Page 1031-1032
        Page 1033-1034
        Page 1035-1036
        Page 1037-1038
        Page 1039-1040
        Page 1041-1042
        Page 1043-1044
    House of Lords - Tuesday, March 30
        Page 1045-1046
        Page 1047-1048
        Page 1049-1050
    House of Commons - Tuesday, March 30
        Page 1051-1052
        Page 1053-1054
        Page 1055-1056
        Page 1057-1058
        Page 1059-1060
        Page 1061-1062
        Page 1063-1064
        Page 1065-1066
        Page 1067-1068
        Page 1069-1070
        Page 1071-1072
        Page 1073-1074
        Page 1075-1076
        Page 1077-1078
        Page 1079-1080
        Page 1081-1082
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        Page 1111-1112
        Page 1113-1114
    House of Lords - Wednesday, March 31
        Page 1115-1116 (MULTIPLE)
    April 1830
        Page 1117-1118 (MULTIPLE)
        Page 1119-1120
        Page 1121-1122
    House of Commons - Thursday, April 1
        Page 1123-1124
        Page 1125-1126
        Page 1127-1128
        Page 1129-1130
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    House of Lords - Friday, April 2
        Page 1187-1188
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        Page 1199-1200
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    House of Commons - Friday, April 2
        Page 1207-1208
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        Page 1213-1214
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        Page 1261-1262
    House of Lords - Monday, April 5
        Page 1263-1264
    House of Commons - Monday, April 5
        Page 1265-1266
        Page 1267-1268
        Page 1269-1270
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Full Text



HANSARD'S



PARLIAMENTARY


DEBATES:


FORMING A CONTINUATION OF THE WORK ENTITLED

THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY OF ENGLAND,

FROM THE EARLIEST PERIOD TO THE YEAR 18o0."


oeW Sevie ;

COMMENCING WITH THE ACCESSION OF GEORGE IV.


V O L. XXIII.

COMPRISING THE PERIOD FROM
THE NINTH DAY OF MARCH,
TO
THE SEVENTH DAY OF APRIL, 1830.
[Qtontr Wolueo of tbe tioin,]




LONDON:
Printed by T. C. HANSARD at the Pater-nosterRow Press,
FOR BALDWIN AND CRADOCK; J. BOOKER; LONGMAN, REES, ORME, AND CO.;
J. M. RICHARDSON; PARBURY, ALLEN, AND CO.; J. HATCHARD AND SON;
J. RIDGWAY; E. JEFFERY AND SON; J. RODWELL; CALKIN AND BUDD;
R. H. EVANS J. BOOTH; AND T. C. HANSARD.
1830.















TABLE OF CONTENTS

TO

VOLUME XXIII.

NEW SERIES.



I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF III. PETITIONS.
LORS.IV. POTTS.
II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF I POTEST
COMMONS. V. LISTS.



I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
1830. Page
Mar. 10. Tax on Leather ..................................... 70
Relief of the Jews ................................... 72
11. Country Bank Notes ................................ 157
Conveyance of Life-hold Property Duty-Fire Insurances .... 158
State of the Country-Relations with Portugal-Turkey...... 160
Marriages Validating Act .............................. 166
12. Irish Poor............................................. 225
East-India Charter ...... ............... ...... ...... 22
15. Coal Trade ....... ...... .............................. 296
Shipping Interest.......... ........... ..... ........... 297
Speakers of the House of Lords ....................... 298
16. Coal Tax .......................................... 365
Irish Poor Laws ..................................... 366
Court of Chancery ..................................... 376
17. Ellenborough's Divorce Bill ............................. 431
18. National Distress ................................... 475
State of the Labouring Classes ........................ 476
19. Legal Amendments ................................. 613
22. Reforms in Courts of Justice ............................ 674
23. Affair at Terceira .................................... 737
5. Welsh Judicature......................................., 829
Improvement of Rooas ........ ...., ...... 4 ., ,, ,,.... 830






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Mar. 25. East Retford ......................................... 831
Distress ............................................ 832
Corn Averages ................................ ....... 832
Taxation ............................................ 834
Kentish Petition ..................................... 835
Free Trade-Exports and Imports ........................ 844
26. Jews-Petition ........................... .......... 920
Foreign Flour-Petition ............................... 920
29. Standing Orders ..................................... 961
Malt Tax-Petition ................................. 961
Christian Natives of India ............................. 962
Distress-Petition from Birmingham .................... 963
Corn Laws ......................................... 966
30. Commercial Treaties ................................ 1046
Supply of the Precious Metals ......................... 1048
31. Tithes-Petition ..................................... 1115
April 1. Administration of Justice ............................ 1118
Ireland-Duty on Coals ........................ ..... 1119
Tithes .................. ............... ... ...... 1121
Distress.......................................... .. 1121
Poor Laws-Scotland.................. ................ 1124
2. Greece ........... ..................... ............ 1189
Amendment of the Law ............ ... ........ .... 1189
Algiers .......... .. ...................... ........ 1190
East Retford Witnesses' Bill .......................... 1190
5. Spirits ............................................. 1265
East India Company's Monopoly ..................... 1265
6. East Retford Disfranchisement Bill ..................... 1336
Prevention of Smuggling Bill......... ................ 1337


II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mar. 9. Herring Fishery-Scotland.............................. 2
Agricultural Distress ............. ........... .... 3
Distress in the Iron Trade ............................. 3
Welsh Judicature ................................... 8
Judge Jebb ........................................ 10
East India Charter .................................. 10
Supply....................... .... ............. 12
Welsh Judicature-Administration of the Law.............. 53
10. Agricultural Distress ................................... 73
Duty on Spirits ...................................... 73
Standard of the Currency ............................ 74
Roman-Catholics of Galway ........................... 75
Affairs of Portugal .................... ............ 76
11. Forms and Ordersof the House ........................ 168
Licensed Victuallers .,,,,,,,,, .. ....,,,,, ,.,,,,,,,, 175






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Mar. 11. Distress and Reform .................................. 176
Slavery............... ............ ........ ........ 177
East India Company's Monopoly .................... 177
Radical Reform .................................... 181
Scotch Judicature .................................. 222
Coal Trade .................. .................. 223
12. Metropolis Turnpike Roads ............................. 226
Avon and Gloucester Rail Roads ...................... 228
Distress ......................................... 229
Treasurer of the Navy ............................... 243
15. Tanjore and Carnatic Commissions ..................... 299
Smuggling Tobacco .................. ............. 299
Distress in Scotland-Taxation ........................ 300
Finances of the Country ........................... 301
Haymarket and St. James's Park ....................... 364
16. Call of the House .................................. 377
St. Giles's and St. George's Bloomsbury Vestry Bill.......... 371
Distress of the Country ............................... 378
Public Distress-the Malt Trade ....................... 383
Truck System ....................................... 387
CornTrade ................ ........ ............. 388
Wool Duties ..................................... 389
Poor Laws-Ireland .................................. 389
Licensing System.................................... 389
Suttees ............................................. 390
Select Vestry Act-Ireland ........................... 390
State of the Nation .................... .................. 391
Excise Acts ...................................... 430
Stamp Duties ...................................... 430
17. Distress ........................................ .. 456
Coals and Taxation .................................. 457
Scotch and Irish Vagrants ............................ 460
Truck System ...................................... 461
18. Revision of the Criminal Law .......................... 541
Operative Weavers .................................... 542
Reform of Parliament ................................ 543
Borough of Carlow.................................. 544
Galway Town ........................................ 544
Trials at Cork ..................................... 545
Wool Trade .......................................... 546
Lunatic Commissions Bill ............................ 547
Distress of the Country, Adjourned Debate ................ 548
19. Duty on Malt-Beer Trade............................. 620
Duty on West India Produce ........................ .... 622
Lead .............................................. 623
Committees ......................................... 624
Distress of the Country, Adjourned Debate ................ 624
22, Insolvent Debtors .........,., ........................ 694







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
Mar. 22. Corn Laws ..... ................ ..................... 694
Lottery Officers ..................................... 695
*Malt and Beer Duties and Publicans..................... 695
Distress and Taxation .......................... ... 697
Dublin Pig Market .................................. 699
Coal Meters, Dublin ........................ ........ 700
Union with Ireland ................ ... ............. 701
Irish Tobacco ........................ .... ....... 708
Dcccan Prize Money ............................... 709
Forgery ............................. .............. 710
Law Reform .......................................... 710
India .............................................. 711
Committee of Supply--Greece ........................ 712
Numberof Electors................................... 713
Colonial Expenditure ............................... 714
Ordnance .......................................... 716
Navy Estimates ................................ .... 716
23. Emigration ......................................... 782
Voting by Ballot.................................... 784
Surrey Petition .................................... 785
Double Punishment.................................... 787
Distress of the Country, Adjourned Debate ................ 789
25. Misrepresentation .................. ............... 846
Distress ............................................ 846
Manufacture of Arms ................................. 852
Manufacture of Flour ................ ............... 854
Canada ............................................ 855
Trial by Jury-New South Wales ...................... 856
Injudicious Taxation ................................. 857
26. Removal of the Haymarket-St. James's Park.............. 921
Conversion of Annuities, New 3A per cents ............... 923
Supply-Navy Estimates ............................ 931
Pensions for the Hon. R. Dundas, and Hon. W. L. Bathurst .. 945
29. Lord Eldon ........................................... 986
Kent Petition-Corn Laws ............................... 987
Supply .............................................. 990
Committee of Supply ................................... 994
Navy Estimates ..................................... 999
Ordnance Estimates ................................ 1005
30. Distress and Crime .................................. 1053
Sugar Duties ........................................ 1053
Duties on Coals ..................................... 1054
Crown Lands ....................................... 1055
.Irish Constabulary Force............................... 1110
31. Lord Ellenborough's Divorce Bill ........................ 1116
April .1. St George's and St. Giles's.Select Vestry Bill .............. 1125
Lord Ellenborough's Divorce Bill ....................... 1128
Tril by Jury in Scotland ..... ....... ... ..... ..... 1138







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Page
April 1. Lawof Forgery .................go ........ 1176
2. The New Haymarket ...................... ....... 1209
St. Giles's and St. George's, Bloomsbury .................. 1209
Lord Ellenborough's Divorce Bill ...................... 1214
Shipping Interest ............... ........ ...... .. 1215
Foreign Relations of the Country ....................... 1234
Supply-Report--Civil Contingencies .................... 1240
Supply.............................................. 1242
Beer Duty ................................ .......... 1263
Arms Bill-Ireland .................................. 1264
5. Vice-Treasurer of Ireland ............................. 1267
Distress-Ireland ....... .. .............................. 1268
Administration of Justice in Scotland .................... 1268
Forgery ............................................ 1269
Ambassadors' Expenses-Civil Contingencies .............. 1270
Bounties on the Fisheries ................... ...... .. .. 1271
Scotch and Irish Poor ................................ 1273
Forgery ... ......................................... 1274
Opening from Waterloo Place ........................ 1275
Forestof Dean ...................................... 1276
Baron de Bode....................................... 1276
Economy in the Packet Service .......................... 1286
The Jews........................................... 1287
6. Lord Ellenborough's Divorce Bill ...................... .. 1340
Tobacco Duties ...................... ............... 1403
Portugal .......................................... 1404
Employment of the Poor.............................. 1406
Supply-Assessed Taxes......o......................... 1410
7. Excessive Taxation ........................ .......... 1414
Misrepresentation .................................... 1414
Reports of the Proceedingsin Parliament ................. 1417
Stamp Duties-Ireland ................... ........... 1417
Distillers of Corn Spirits ...................... ........ 1418
Library of the House of Commons ..................... 1427
Malt Duties.......................................... 1429
4 per cent. Annuities Bill ............................. 1429
Stamp.Duties Acts .......................................... 1432
Tobacco Duties ...................................... 1433
Compensation to Officers of the Courts of Law ............ 1436


III. PETITIONS.

Mar. 11. PETITION from Merchants and Agents connected with the
Trade to the East Indies against the East-India
Company's Monopoly ..................... 178
12. Substance of a Petition, from a Meeting held at the Mansion
House respecting the Distress ................... 231
April5j Petition of Baron de Bode ............................. 1283






TABLE OF CONTENTS.



IV. PROTESTS.
Page
Mar. 23. By certain of the Lords with respect to the Affair at Terceira .. 780
April 2. By Lord Holland in the matter of East Retford............ 1205


V. LISTS.

Mar. 9. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, upon the Supply
Question .................................... 24
of the Minority in the House of Commons, on the State of
the Poor....................................... 26
10. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Motion
respecting the affairs of Portugal .................. 157
12. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on a Motion
respecting the Treasurer of the Navy .............. 295
15. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Amend-
ment of the East Retford Disfranchisement Bill........ 355
of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Ballot
clause of the East Retford Disfranchisement Bill ...... 363
18. of the Majority and Minority, in the House of Lords, on
the State of the Labouring Classes ................. 538
22. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Amend-
iment of the Motion on Navy Estimates .............. 725
-of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the original
Motion on the Navy Estimates ... ................ 734
25. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Injudicious
Taxation ..................................... 918
26. of the Majority, in the House of Commons, against Minis-
ters, on the Motion respecting the Pensions of the hon.
R. Dundas, and the hon. W. L. Bathurst ............ 958
29. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Ordnance
Estimates ............. ............ 1044
30. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Motion
respecting the Crown Lands ...................... 1110
April 6. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Lord Ellen-
borough's Divorce Bill ........ ............ ..... 1394













HANSARD'S




Parliamentary Debates



During the FOURTH SESSION of the EIGhTI PARLIAMENT

ofthe United Kingdom of GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND,

appointed to meet at Westminster the 4th of February,

1830, in the Eleventh Year of the Reign of His Majesty


GEORGE THE FOURTH.

[SECOND VOLUME OF THE SESSION.]


HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 9, 1830.
MINUTES.] On the Motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY,
an Address was presented to his Majesty, for a copy of the
second Report of the Commissioners for Inquiry into the
proceedings in Suits in the Superior Courts of Common
Law.
On the Motion of the Earl of ROSSLYN, Lord ELLEN-
BOROUHo's Divorce Bill, after Counsel had been heard, was
read a second time.


HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 9.
MINUTEs. MRn. WARD took the Oaths and his Seat as Mem-
ber for Leominster.
Accounts were ordered,on the Motion of Mr. IIUME, of Cot-
ton Yarn and Twists exported from this Country from 1826
to 1829, inclusive, together with their value, &c.:-of the
Four and a Half per Cent Duties on Goods imported into
Barbadoes, and other neighboring Colonies, which had
before been laid on the Table, down to 1819, to be brought
down to the present time, with a view, as the hon. Mem-
ber said, of attempting to relieve the West Indies from
this charge, which they were quite unable to bear:-Of the
persons employed in Commissions of Inquiry in the year
1829, of the Balances paid them, of the Expenses of the
Commissions and of the Reports made to the House.
On the Motion of Colonel SIBTHORP, Accounts were
ordered, of all Persons in the Civil and Military Establish-
ments of Great Britain and Ireland holding two or more
situations, or receiving two or more pensions or allow-
ances, in the year 1829, with the name, date, &c.:-of all
Offices, Pensions, Fees, and Allowances of any kind, held
in Reversion; with the names of the occupant, the ever.
sioner, the date, and the particulars.
On the Motion of Sir JAMEs GRAHAM, of the Names and
Offices of all Persons now employed in the respective
Civil Departments of the United Kingdom, whose Salaries
and Emoluments exceed 2501. per annum; sewing the
compensation amount in 1815 and 1829; the grounds on
which increase, if any, had been made, and giving the date
of that increase:-of the Net Amount of the Revenue
VOL. XXIII. {N.s.}


collected in each Department, and the rate per cent at
which such collection was made:-of the Items of the
Expenditure, including charges for conveyance out and
home, and for outfit, of the Diplomatic Consular Establish-
ment to the New States of South America, with the time
of Residence of each Consul, since January 1st, 1825.
Notices were given by Sir JAMEs GRAHAM, that, on Friday
next, he would move for the following Return:--Of all
Salaries, Profits, Pay, Fees, and Emoluments, whether
Civil or Military, from 5th January, 1829,'to the 5th
January, 1830, held and enjoyed by each Member of the
Privy Council specifying the total amount received by
each individual, and distinguishing the various sources
from which they were derived; and also that, on Friday,
before the House resolved itself into a Committee on the
Navy Estimates, he would move a Resolution respecting
the recent appointment of the Treasurer of the Navy.
Leave was obtained by Mr. POULETT THOMSON, to bring in
a Bill to Amend the Laws relating to Usury. A Bill was
brought in to regulate the Office of Sheriff in Ireland. The
Game Bill was read a second time. The Exchequer Bills
Bill, and the Transfer of Aids Bill were passed. The
Mutiny Bill went through a Committee. The Pensions and
Duties Bill was read a first time. The Estimates of the
Army Extraordinaries, Civil Contingencies, and expense
of the Commissariat Department were laid on the Table.
An humble Address was ordered to be presented to his Ma-
jesty, fora copy of the Commission issued for Inquiry into
the Ecclesiastical Courts of England and Wales: also for
an Account of the Expenditure, including Charges of Con.
veyance and outfit for Diplomatic and Insular Establish-"
ments in the New States of America.


HERRING FISHERY- SCOTLAND.]
Mr.Cutlar Fergusson, in presenting a Pe-
tition from the Magistrates and others of
Cromarty, engaged in the cure of Herrings,
praying for the continuance of the bounty ,
on that branch of industry, stated that
the people engaged in this trade, by aid of
this bounty had been enabled to carry it
on, and that it nourished 48,000 sea.
B







{COMMONS} Distress in the Iron Trade. 4


men, as hardy as any in Britain. If it ants of Merthyr-Tydvil, complaining of
were withdrawn, these men would be un- great distress, said that the petitioners had
able to obtain a living. Many of them, so little business, and profits were so low,
too, had been driven from their former that they were hardly able to exist. The
dwellings by its having been found expe- manufacturers and artizans having barely
pedient to appropriate the land to a dif- the necessaries of life, the shopkeepers
ferent purpose, and they had found a re- and tradesmen were suffering most se-
source from starvation in this fishery. verely, and many of them had no business
He did not suppose it would be necessary at all. The petitioners prayed for a re-
for him to point out to the House the im- duction of taxation, as the only means of
portance, in a national point of view, of relief. He could bear his testimony to the
our fisheries as forming a nursery for our truth of the petition; but he was bound to
seamen; but he must say, it would be add that he believed the pressure would
very impolitic were the Government to speedily pass away. He would enter into
embrace any policy which would drive further particulars did he not anticipate a
these men from our shores, and compel better opportunity for doing so when the
them to seek a home and employment in hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyne
a foreign land. He was well awareof the brought forward his motion.
theory on which these bounties were with- Sir Christopher Cole bore his testimony
drawn ; but he must say, practically speak- to the severe sufferings of the petitioners,
ing, to turn such a body of men from our and at the same time said, they had, in
shores, at a time when France and Holland the midst of all their sufferings, displayed
were encouraging their commerce to the invariable loyalty and good conduct. He
utmost of their power, was neither politic was happy, however, to say, that there had
nor wise. It was breaking up our naval of late been a gradual improvement in the
militia. The petitioners stated, that the trade of that part of the country.
bounty would not be wholly lost to Petition read and printed.
the state, but repaid in the shape of Lord Althorp presented a Petition from
various taxes, which, without this bounty, the Grand Jury of the County of North-
they would be unable to pay, and unable ampton, complaining of the sums of
to get a living. The petitioners prayed money paid for passing Irish and Scotch
that the Government would at least con- Vagrants. It was difficult, his Lordship
tinue a part of the bounty, for if it were said, to credit the expense to which pa-
all withdrawn, they declared that it would rishes were subject on this account. A
be utterly unable for them to carry on single parish, in 1825, paid 7971. for the
their business. On a subject of so much purpose; in 1828 it paid 6881., and last
importance, he hoped he might be ex- year 7771. If by this expense those paupers
used if he earnestly called on the House were permanently removed, so as not
and the Government to give it their serious again to become a burthen, it might be
consideration, borne, but it unfortunately happened that
the same expense was incurred, year after
AGRICULTURALT DISTRESS.] SirWilliam year, in passing the same identical paupers,
Rowley,in presenting Petitionsfrom several who amused themselves apparently travel-
Hundreds in Suffolk, praying for the re- ling through the country at the expense
mission of the Duties on Malt and Beer, of the different parishes. Some legisla-
stated that the petitioner, in common with tive provision was, he thought, necessary
all the agriculturists, were suffering under on this subject, and he hoped hon. Menm-
vast distress, which they said was much en- bers would attend to it.
hanced by the Duties on Malt and Beer Mr. Cartwright stated, that he fully
pressing particularly on them, by pre- concurred in what had fallen from the
venting the consumption of Barley. He noble Lord, and agreed with him that
earnestly prayed, that the Government some remedy ought to be applied to this
would give ear to the petitioners, and give evil. The necessity of passing vagrants
relief to the Agricultural Interest, by re- caused an enormous expense to parishes.
pealing these and other burthens. Mr. Greene concurred in this repre-
sentation of the evil. In the absence of
DISTRESS IN THE IRON TRADE.] Mr. a noble Lord (Stanley), he begged to.say
Alderman Thompson, in presenting a Pe- that it was his intention to briggitmne
tition signed by 400 respectable inhabit- measure respecting this subject uader the


3 Agrzeultural Distress.







notice of the House at an early day. He other class of vagrants he should like to
knew of one parish in Lancashire which see transported to Ireland. He meant
was subject, on this account, to an annual the rich vagrants, who collected their
expense of nearly 3,0001. rents in that country, to spend them in
Mr. Cutlar Fergusson said, that there foreign lands.
was abundant proof of the expense occa- Mr. Littleton said, that he did not
sioned by Irish vagrants; but he knew no think the case of the Irish vagrants was
examples of money thus spent in the con- quite what the hon. and learned Member
veyance of Scotch vagrants. Scotland for Clarerepresented it. They didnotbene-
would be glad to maintain her own va- fit the country one-half so much by their
grants, if she had none others to support, labour as they injured it by the excessive
but she was burthened to a great extent competition they introduced, and the
with the expense of supporting Irish paupers their system of working created.
paupers. He could assert, that they were a real
Mr. Sunday expressed his satisfaction, grievance to the central counties. Staf-
that an evil which had long been seriously fordshire alone had paid 2,0001. a-year
felt in many parts of the country, had at for the expenses of their removal, and the
length attracted the attention of the sum was increasing. He trusted the hon.
House, and he hoped that the committee, Member for Lancaster would soon submit
for which he understood the noble Lord to the House some measure to remedy
meant to move, might devise some remedy. this evil.
Sir James Graham said, he could in- Mr. George Dawson said, that injustice
form his hon. friend the Member for Kir- was often committed towards Ireland in
cudbright, that the expense of passing removing thither the female vagrants with
Scotch paupers was very considerable in whom the men had formed connections in
the county which he represented. this country. With regard to Scotland,
Mr. C. Davenport could also inform he could show that invitations were often
the House, that where he resided, the ex- sent over to Ireland for labourers to go to
pense of passing Scotch and Irish paupers Scotland, where they were wanted to un-
was very great, and he would give his derwork the active labourers of the soil,
strenuous support to any measure for re- and they were then sent back in a very
living the country from this enormous miserable condition, after they had served
expense, the purposes of those who had called them
Sir M. W. Ridley also asserted, that the over.
expense of passing Scotch vagrants was Mr. Cutlar Fergusson observed, that
very considerable, and which fell very the hon. Gentleman must be mistaken, as
heavy in some of the northern counties. Scotland unfortunately possessed no power
Where he resided it was very severely of sending back the vagrants to their own
felt, and would, he was afraid, continue as country. That was the great defect in
long as the practice was continued of her law. In one county alone there had
banishing men from Scotland. Whether Ibeen 40,000 Irish paupers. He repeated
that were a punishment or not to the in- what he had before said, that Scotland
dividuals he would not say, but it was would gladly maintain her own poor if she
a severe infliction for the northern parts had no others to support. In reply to his
of England which had to pay for the hon. friend, the Member for Cumberland,
passing and repassing of these banished he would say that he did not assert that
Scotchmen. there were no Scotch vagrants in England,
Mr. O'Connell thought, thatif Irish va- but only that the number was small.
grants were to be driven from this country, Mr. Grifith said, the hon. and learned
their deportation should be provided for Member for Clare was mistaken in the
at the expense, not of the country to way in which he had spoken of the Irish
which they were going, but of that in vagrants. Our great evil was, that as
which they had spent their life, and en- soon as they had been sent back to Ire-
riched by their labour. It would be cruel land they came back again, and out of a
on those men, after having spent their large number very few would at any time
youth in the service of England, to send be found who had not been in this coun-
them back in their old age to starve in try before. They made a trade of this
i* reland, or be a burthen on a land they passing and repassing between the two
had volmiiarily quitted. There was an- countries.
B2


5 Distress in the


{MARCH 9}


Jrron Tradre.






Welsh Judicature. 8


Sir R. Heron said, that the Irish la-
bourers who found their way into Lin-
colnshire were very useful, and he had ge-
nerally found them to be very orderly, well
behaved men.
General Gascoyne declared that the Irish
vagrants were a grievous tax upon the
people of Liverpool. One-half, or nearly
two-thirds of the taxes raised in that
town for the poor, were directly or indi-
rectly consumed on account of the Irish
vagrants. He thought an act ought to be
passed declaring that every person who
brought over an Irishman here, and did
not give security that he should not be-
come a burthen to any parish, should be
liable either to pay a penalty, or to have
him sent back to Ireland. He was quite
sure that England would gladly take back
all her paupers, from both Ireland and
Scotland, if those two countries would un-
dertake to receive their own from this
country. He hoped the noble Lord would
lose no time in bringing forward his pro-
mised measure.
Mr. Slaney thought, that all the schemes
for preventing the emigration of the va-
grants of one of the three countries into
either of the other two would be found
useless, so long as the condition of the
labouring classes in either of the three
was superior to that of the same men in
the other. The only mode of preventing
the emigration of Irish vagrants here was
to raise the condition of the peasantry of
that country, and to place them as nearly
as possible on a level with the peasantry
of England.
Mr. O'Connell denied, that the poor of
Ireland were any worse off than those of
England. At least, they were not subject
to the tyranny of parish overseers and
select vestries.
Sir C. Burrell contended, that select
vestries, which in London were considered
such evils, in the country produced great
advantage. They exercised no tyranny
over the poor, but promoted their hap-
piness.
Mr. G. Dawson contended, in opposi-
tion to what had fallen from the hon. and
gallant Member for Liverpool, that that
town derived the highest benefit from its
contiguity to Ireland, instead of sustaining
any injury, and that the Irish labourers
paid in the sweat of their brows for what-
ever they obtained in this country. Very
few cases could, he believed, be found, of
an Irishman being a willing pauper. He


would be glad to work if he could get
employment, and only begged when he
was sick or out of work.
Mr. Benett argued that the evil arose
out of a difference of laws relating to the
poor prevailing in England and Ireland.
The sure remedy was, to establish the same
Poor-laws in both. The existing tithe-
system in Ireland prevented the outlay
of capital upon the land there, and the
extension of cultivation. If some equita-
ble means could be found out for com-
muting the tithes there, it would give, he
believed, a great stimulus to the demand
for labour in the country, and both keep
the peasantry at home, and improve their
condition.
Mr. Protheroe concurred with the hon.
Member for Wiltshire, and said, he was
sure that the evil must speedily be reme-
died some way or other.
Sir Robert Inglis stated, that the ex-
pense of removing every pauper was as
great as if he were sent by the mail, and
the expense fell on counties lying betwixt
Liverpool and London, which derived little
or no benefit from the labour of Irish la-
bourers.
Petition read.

WELSH JUDICATURE.] Mr. R. Trevor,
after observing that he wished the Judges
of Wales to be placed upon the same
footing as those of England, and that he
for one could not consent to the dividing
and mixing up of counties for the sake
of making assize districts, presented a
Petition from the freeholders of the
County of Carmarthen against the Bill
for the alteration of the Welsh Judi-
cature. The hon. Member added, that he
in a great degree concurred in the prayer
of the petition. There might be some
improvements in the present system, but
he could not agree to its total abolition.
Some Gentlemen spoke of the Welsh law
as a foreign code; it was, in fact, the old
English law differently, and in some
respects better, administered.
Petition laid upon the Table.
Sir J. Owen presented a Petition with
the same prayer, from between 1,800 and
1,900 freeholders of the County of Pem-
broke. He concurred heartily in tll-
prayer of the petition.
Mr. Jones presented a similar Petitian
from the Sheriff, Magistrates, 4, ,9f
the Borough of Carmarthen. The hon.
Member trusted that no attempt would


I The Iron Tralde.


ICOMMONSI






East India Charter. 10


be made, as had been threatened, to hurry
the Bill through the House before Easter.
He looked on the proposed plan as an
untried experiment, of which the good
was doubtful, and before it was carried
into execution he wished that the
Bill should be printed, and circulated in
Wales at least a twelvemonth. The
Welsh had not complained of the present
system, and when they did it would be
time enough to alter it. He did not
charge it against any member of the
Government; but it had been said, that
whether the Welsh liked the measure or
not, they should be forced to swallow it.
From that he claimed the protection of
the House, and complained that the nature
of the Bill had been kept as secret from
those it was to affect, as if it were a state
mystery.
Sir C. Cole said, that the borough of
Glamorgan was in favour of the Bill before
the House.
Mr. Peel denied that any mystery had
been kept up regarding the Bill, which
had originated in the recommendation of a
commission, after due inquiry. It had
been submitted to Parliament last year, and
he had himself seen sixteen or eighteen
gentlemen connected with the Principality
on the subject, so that there was no
pretence for saying that the matter had
been kept secret. He, however, concurred
in the objection that had been raised
respecting the division of counties, and
full time, he said should be allowed, to
enable the people of Wales to give an
opinion upon the whole measure.
Mr. Jones reiterated his objection to
the alteration of the system, excepting as
far as regarded placing the Welsh Judges
upon the same footing as those of England.
Mr. Peel was ready to enter into this
compact, that all due time for considera-
tion should be allowed, provided the hon.
Member and his friends would not throw
needless impediments in the way, so as to
prevent the passing of the Bill in the
present Session.
Mr. Jones consented to these terms, and
laid upon the Table two other Petitions,
with the same prayer as that he before
p .eiit,:d, one from the Burgesses and
Cbmmonalty of Carmarthen, and the other
i onm Kidwelly.
Colonel Powell presented a similar
P titioni from the freeholders of the County
aof Cardigan.


JUDGE JEBB.] Mr. O'Connell, after re-
ferring to a charge given to the Grand
Jury by one of the Irish Judges, which
was in opposition to the tenor of a Procla-
mation issued by the Government, moved
" that there be laid before the House a
Memorial addressed to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, on the subject of certain prose-
cutions for murder to be tried at the next
Assizes for the county of Fermanagh."
Lord F. L. Gower objected to the pro-
duction of such documents, unless some
ground of suspicion were previously laid:
to grant it, would imply a want of impar-
tiality in the executive government of
Ireland, and the precedent would be liable
to inconvenience and abuse. He heard
with considerable regret anything like an
insinuation against a member of the
Bench of Ireland-Judge Jebb; and he
felt bound to state, that were his own life
in jeopardy on any charge, he should think
he could not intrust it to any Judge
more safely than to that distinguished
individual.
Mr. Peel thought it would be dan-
gerous to set a precedent like that now
attempted to be established. It appeared
that a judge of one of the superior Courts
of Ireland differed in opinion from the
executive government on the subject of a
certain proclamation. Judges were in-
tended to control the executive govern-
ment when it attempted unduly to interfere
with the liberty of the subject. He pro-
tested against the production of the me-
morial.
Mr. O'Connell did not intend, in the
most remote degree, to charge the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland with partiality:
any man who did so would be guilty of a
high crime, inasmuch as he would do
gross injustice to that noble personage.
The parties accused felt their lives at
stake, as a judge who had expressed such
a hostile opinion was about to try them.
He thought that the better mode would
be for the parties interested to present a
petition.
Mr. Peel added, that lie did not mean
to impute the slightest partiality to the
executive government of Ireland, and he
was himself a party to the proclamation
from which Judge Jebb had dissented.
Mr. O'Connell withdrew his Motion.

EAST INDIA CHARTER.] M. :Little-
ton, in presenting a Petition fruin! the Pio-
prietors of various Iron Mines in the Coutni


WeIVlsh Juldicalare..C


{MAfRCH 9}






11 East India Charter.


ties of Stafford and Worcester, against the
Monopoly enjoyed by the East-India
Company, complained in strong terms of
the privations to which the operatives in
that trade were exposed, and adverted
shortly to communications which he had
some time ago had with the President of
the Board of Trade. The parties to the
present petition had then remonstrated
against admitting foreign corn and steel
into this country. Their remonstrance had
been effectual, and they had now become
sensible of the justice of the views they
there opposed.
Mr. Huskisson remembered the appli-
cation made by the hon. Member at the
Board of Trade, and he also remembered
telling him, and those by whom he was
accompanied, that the hardware trade of
this country would be most materially
improved and benefitted by the introduc-
tion into this country of the lighter pro-
ductions of other countries; and he had
no doubt that that effect would be pro-
duced were the cause allowed to come into
full operation. He was formerly of opinion
that allowing the raw material to be brought
into this country, would be a benefit;
our manufacturers would be able to make
their articles cheaper, and foreigners have
.something to exchange for them. He
was glad to find that the people were
beginning to be sensible of the advantages
of the liberal policy he had recommended;
and had that not been followed, he be-
lieved that our present difficulties would
have been much greater. He would not
then enter further into the subject, but he
could not permit that opportunity to pass
of acknowledging the honourable and
candid manner in which the gentlemen
who attended on that occasion, and for-
merly opposed him, now admitted that
the measures then in progress for removing
the restriction on foreign trade have turned
out for the good of the country; and
that the originators of those measures
intended them to be productive of good.
Mr. Robinson thought the right hon.
Gentleman drew a hasty conclusion when
h inferred, because these petitioners
were not suffering, that his measures
must have been beneficial to the whole
country.
Mr. Littleton said, the petitioners were
suffering much; that no one engaged in
the Iron Trade in England, Wales, or
Scotland, was free from very severe
privations.


The Petition was brought up and order-
ed to be printed.

SUPPLY.] Mr. FyschePalmeFthen rose;
Sir Henry Hardinge said, he hoped the
hon. Member would allow the Report of
th' Committee of Supply to be brought up.
Mr. Fysche Palmer had no objection,
on the understanding that he should be
allowed to move afterwards.
On the question that the Report of the
Committee of Supply be brought up,
Mr. Robert Gordon said, that in bring-
ing forward the Resolution with which he
intended to conclude, he meant to convey
no imputation whatever upon the great
and illustrious men who had served their
country, either in the Army or the Navy;
all he wished was, to establish a principle,
he hoped a correct principle, upon which
the half-pay of military officers might in
future be regulated. It had been cus-
tomary to introduce into the Appropriation
Act a clause regulating the half-pay and
allowances of the military. Early in the
reign of the late King, it was made a rule
that no officer on half-pay should hold a
civil office without giving up his half-pay
or retired allowance. This practice was
continued from the year 1761 to the year
1820, when it was, for the first time, de-
parted from, and by a new regulation,
officers on half-pay were allowed to retain
their civil employment, if any they had,
and their half-pay at the same time. The
Finance Committee recommended a re-
currence to the ancient usage, and from
that time to this, the regulation he spoke
of remained on the old footing. Thus the
House would see that the deviation from
the ancient practice was to be found in
the change of 1820, and the recommenda-
tion of the Committee went to a restora-
tion of the old practice. He thought,
that when the House came to look at the
facts, it would agree with him, that the
same regulations ought to apply to full as
to half pay, and that neither should be
retained by the holder of a civil office.
He did not object to a military man hold-
ing a civil office; but when he did hold
a civil employment he ought not to
enjoy a greater benefit than a civilian
holding a similar situation. Why should
he possess greater benefits than the civil
servants of the state? For example,
if any person holding a Parliamentary
pension obtain a civil employment, the
practice up to this time has been, that he


JCOMMONSJ


Supply.






18 Supply.


make his election between the one and the
other. If he accepted the one, the other
immediately abated. A military officer,
however, on full pay, accepting a civil
situation, did not relinquish thereupon the
full pay, but the holder of half-pay lost it
instantly. In that there was anything
but fairness. There was a remarkable
case then before them, the Secretary at
War enjoyed no half-pay for his military
service, but his right hon. friend beside
him enjoyed his full pay, though he held
along with that full pay the situation of
Secretary to the Colonies. The Secre-
tary-at-War, then, and the Secretary
to the Colonies, though both of them
officers of distinguished merit, stood in
situations altogether different. He was
aware he might be told that the regi-
ments which colonels held were their own
property, and that they ought not to be
deprived of those on account of any civil
office which they might subsequently take.
To that he had to say, that he did not
propose to take away from those colonels
the regiments they might hold, but merely
suspend the military emoluments which
they held while the civil emoluments were
accruing. Here he might, in passing,
observe, that the mode of paying colonels
of regiments at present in use was one of
which he entirely disapproved. In the
report of Mr. Abbot on the Army Estimates
this practice was judiciously mentioned,
and he conceived very properly condem ned.
It might also be objected tothe view which
he was taking of this question, that those
who were on half and those who were on
full pay, did not stand upon the same
footing, and ought not to be treated alike;
but he thought the rule as to civil offices
ought to be precisely the same. He be-
lieved that there were some instances, even
where half-pay did not stand in the way
of holding civil offices; thus a Navy Lord
might hold his half-pay as an Admiral, and
his full pay as a General of Marines, and
his situation at the Board besides. He
found it utterly impossible to discover any
reason why full pay should not stand
exactly on the same footing as the half-
pay. It might be, that he thought the
present regulations somewhat too strict;
but whatever might be thought of them,
there could be no doubt that fair play de-
manded that no difference should be made
between one class of retired military offi.
cers and another. He hopedhe had been
in noise discourteous in his remarks, and


he begged particularly to guard himself
against being thought to convey the
slightest offence towards any of the gallant
officers in that House, or in the service.
Most of all, he was desirous of guarding
himself against being supposed to mean
aught disrespectful to an illustrious Gen-
eral, who held his military and civil incomes
without the one being at all allowed to
interfere with the other. He should be
the last in the world to endeavour to
deprive those illustrious and gallant indi-
viduals of the reward of their services;
they had the highest claims upon the
justice and upon the liberality of their
country. With respect to a great number
of those now upon the half-pay list, he
must be allowed to say, that nothing could
be more melancholy than the condition in
which they were placed. They were, for
the most part, men of birth and education,
who had served their country for years;
some of them had lost their limbs and
their health in that service, or had spent
their property in endeavouring to attain
that rank in the army which they had
attained, and which left them now without
the means of maintaining their station in
society. Struggling against difficulties
such as these, they still could have no just
ground of complaint if the small amount
of their stipend arose from the real necessi-
ties of the country; but when they saw
other military men, not more deserving
than themselves, in possession of civil
offices and full pay, with such things
before their eyes, it would be no matter of
surprise that they should be discontented.
Fair and equal justice ought to be granted
them, and in the distribution of emolu-
ments no difference should be made
between the weak and the powerful. He
hoped, too, that in meeting his Resolution,
no nice distinctions would be set up
between officers holding elevated rank, or
subordinate rank. He then moved as an
Amendment to the Motion for receiving
the Report of the Committee of Supply,
the following Resolution:-" That it is
the opinion of this House, that, as certain
regulations are in force by which Half-pay
officers of the Navy, Army, Ordnance, or
Marines, are prevented from receiving the
whole or part of their Half-pay during the
period they may enjoy the emoluments of
any Civil office, it is expedient and just
that the same regulations shall extend to
all Officers of the Army, Navy, Ordnance,
or Marines, in the receipt of Full pay or of


Supply. 14


{MARCH 9}






MSupplyj. 16


profit from:Naval, or Military allowances,
or. from emoluments from Naval or Mili-
tary appointments."
,.Sir Henry Hardinge admitted the per-
fect fairness of the statement made by the
hon. Member who had just sat down. No-
thing'could be fairer or more courteous
than his observations, and he congratulated
the gentlemen on half-pay on their possess-
ing so able an advocate. With respect,
in the first place, to the alterations made
ig the year 1820, and the change by the
Finance Committee, he at the time, as
now, pronounced that change to be exceed-
ingly ill-judged. It was neither econo-
mical nor politic. There were many
places of small emolument, which ought,
nevertheless, to be filled by respectable
persons; by persons who offered a long
life of integrity, and possessed a commis-
sion as a guarantee to their employers;
but such men,he believed, could no where
be found, unless among officers on half-
pay, and they would not accept such offices
unless they were allowed to retain their
half-pay. As an illustration of the effect
which the refusal to allow half-pay to be
retained by officers accepting other ap-
pointments, he would instance the case of
a.captain appointed to the situation of
barrack-master. The pay of a barrack-
master was 7s. 6d., the half pay of a
captain 7s. If a captain accepted a
barrack-mastership, he lost his half-pay-
Ilie tno together were but 14s. 6d. If
he. resigned the one for the other, he
undertook heavy and laborious duties,
considerable responsibility, the expense
and inconvenience of a residence abroad
--all for 6d. a day. Upon those grounds,
and he thought them sufficient, he disap-
proved of the change, and he thought it
productive of the most evident injustice.
He thought that full pay, or retired allow-
ances granted for military services ought to
be retained, and certainly thought the same
rule ought to apply to half-pay; but the
House would be surprised to learn how few
officers on full pay had also civil appoint-
ments. In the service there were under
ilt rank of major-general, 5,260 officers
op full pay, and of that number there
weNe only three in the civil service whom
hen could discover. There was one in a
colonial situation-there was a Captain
Turner as secretary to the Governor of
Beqmuda;.:but he had no staff-pay as
Aidelde-camp. The third was in the
7ill regiment, stationed at Botany Bay,


where he held the situation of Clerk to
the Council, for which he received 100t.
a-year. He was perfectly ready to discuss
the question, as the hon. Member had pro-
posed to discuss it, as a matter of ancient
usage; but he thought that, upon ex-
amination, it would be found that the
ancient usage was rather against the hon.
Member than against the views which he
took of the question. Now let them take
the case of colonels of regiments-they
always retained the emoluments of their
regiments, notwithstanding any civil situa-
tion to which they might be appointed-
that had always been the practice; and
he would contend that it was a practice
which ought to be continued. To go
back to the case of the Duke of Marl-
borough, which was going back far enough
-and the case of the Duke of Marl-
borough was one which he trusted even
the hon. Member for Montrose would ac-
knowledge as an authority of some weight
-that distinguished individual held the
first regiment of Guards, the office of
Master-General of the Ordnance, and of
Constable of the Tower. The Duke of
Wellington held the same offices, and
under the same circumstances; and to
that, he expected, no one would be found
to enter a valid objection. As to what
the hon. Member had said respecting his
right hon. friend near him, and himself,
he saw nothing invidious in the com-
parison. His own services were far
inferior to those of his right hon. friend.
In due time, if he lived, he might expect
to attain the same rank in the army as
his right hon. friend; but until they
should stand upon the same footing pro-
fessionally, he declared himself quite con-
tent with the advantages he then possessed.
His right hon. friend had a regiment; the
income of a regiment generally averaged
about 1,0001. a-year. Previous to the
appointment of his right hon. friend to
the situation he at present held, he was
Governor of Edinburgh Castle. That he
resigned; and he then held the office of
Governor of Fort George,which produced
4701.; so that the whole of his reward for
a life of military service, was about
1,5001. a-year. To punish him by taking
that away, merely because he undertook
to serve the state in some other way, was
anything but fair and equal justice.
When General Fitzpatrick held the office
of Secretary-at-War, he had long been
inefficient as a military officer, He wa


Supply.


C COM M/INSJ






17 Supply.


given a regiment, and enjoyed the full
pay, with all the emoluments of the office.
There was another case that of the
Lieutenant Governor of the Tower, and
the Surveyor General of the Ordnance,
who had each 1,2001. a-year. Were
either of those officers to give up their
regiments they would just receive 2001.
a-year for their services. What motive,
then, could they have for accepting office ?
Let the House only look at the grounds
upon which the hon. Member pressed his
Motion. He said, that they dealt harshly
with the half-pay officers, and he called
upon them to deal as harshly with those
upon full pay; for wherein lay the differ-
ence ?-the officer who received full pay
had earned it as well and was as justly
entitled to it as the officer on half-pay.
The hon. Member was inclined to pro-
pose, that when a general officer received
a civil appointment, he should immedi-
ately resign his regiment; but the income
of that regiment was given chiefly on
account of the great responsibility which
the colonel of a regiment necessarily
undertook. A colonel was often bound
to pay large sums to Government on
account of the various persons connected
with the regiment, who might happen to
become defaulters. Recently he had to
call upon the colonel of one regiment for
a sum of 1,5001.; upon the colonel of
another, for 1,8001.; and upon the colonel
of another, for 2,0001., though the last-
mentioned sum was afterwards reduced
to 1,4001. Colonels of regiments were
answerable for agents for clothing, and for
a variety of other matters, for which they
could not be made responsible if their
incomes were withdrawn or suspended.
Within the present year, ten general
officers had been appointed to regiments,
and he had institued an inquiry into their
length of service and their ages, and he
had struck an average-he found that the
average period of service was thirty-nine
years, and their average age fifty-five years.
The 130 regiments in the service afforded
the only prizes in the profession to 13,000
officers on full and half pay belonging to
it. Would the House be disposed to
withdraw those prizes ? He hoped, that
with those facts before them, Members
would see the necessity rather of rejecting
than of adopting the Resolution of the
hon. Gentleman, in case he should deem
it right to press that Motion to a division,
which, he hoped, would not prove the case.


Mr. C. Wood supported the Motion,
and said, that he heard nothing to invali-
date his hon. friend's statements. The
gallant officer had shown, that half-pay
officers were harshly treated; but he had
not given any reason why officers on whole
pay should be suffered to have the emolu-
ments both of civil and military employ-
ments. In his opinion, the pay of an
officer ought to abate when he took a civil
office.
Sir Francis Burdett said a few words
against the Motion. He was sorry that
he could not agree with his hon. friend;
for he was not aware of any reason why
officers who had passed a long life in the
service of their country, should be ex-
cluded from accepting office in the civil
departments of the country; and he
thought, that when they did, it would be
very hard to deprive them of their military
pay and emoluments. He saw no reason
for depriving any class of officers of that
half-pay which they had so hardly earned.
As he understood the Motion, it would go
to deprive some officers of their half-pay,
which was quite contrary to the general
principles which, he thought, ought to be
acted on. He was quite aware of the
necessity of encouraging the Ministers to
practise that economy which was now
required by the country, but he could not
consent to urge that economy at the ex-
pense of individuals.
Mr. C. Fergusson observed, that there
were many situations with small salaries
which could not be properly filled except
by half-pay officers, and he thought it
was hard to deprive them of the power of
holding such offices. If the subject were
likely to be taken into consideration by
his Majesty's Government, he would
recommend his hon. friend to withdraw
his Motion.
Lard Althorp felt all the inconvenience
of Ministers being placed in a situation of
refusing to make allowances and grant
superannuations to gentlemen; he felt,
however, that the House was placed in a
critical situation ; and while he regretted
the difficulty in which Government was
placed, he must insist that it was the duty
of the House to press economy on the
Government. It was painful, perhaps,
for Members to enforce economy when it
affected individuals, but there was a
necessity for them, being trustees for the
public, not to allow their feelings to get
the better of their duty to the public,


{MARCH 9}


.S ppl.






Supply. 20


The statement made by his hon. friend
had not been answered, in the slightest
degree, by the right hon. Gentleman. It
seemed to him a partial system to deprive
the lower ranks of officers of their half-
pay if they accepted civil situations, and
to allow the higher ranks to retain their
full pay with official situations. Such a
system ought not to be continued. The
hon. Baronet and the hon. Member for
Kircudbright seemed to think that the
half-pay was to be continued at the same
amount as it ever had been; and if that
were the way in which they pressed
economy on the Government, they might
be sure that the Government would
steadily attend to their recommendation.
Being convinced of the necessity of doing
everything possible to enforce economy,
and limit the national expenditure, he
should give his vote for the Motion of the
hon. Member.
Mr. Huskisson was disposed generally
to concur in the views of the noble Lord ;
but considering all the circumstances of
the case, he should feel more satisfaction
if the Motion were not pressed to a divi-
sion. He thought that the time was come
when the whole system of superannua-
tions, allowances, pensions, and half-pay
must, from the circumstances of the
country, become a subject of investiga-
tion. The House ought to go into such
an inquiry, not with reference solely to
half-pay or full pay, but with reference to
every kind of salary, pension, and allow-
ance. It would be wise and good policy
to do so, and the Government ought to be
encouraged to take the arduous task into
its own hands. He admitted that the
recompense of the half-pay was well
earned, but the House must look at the
difficulties under which the country was
placed. If, according to the statement of'
his right hon. friend, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, of seventeen millions ex-
pended annually only eleven millions were
applied to the efficient and active service of
the country, while six millions were paid
for superannuation allowances,'pensions,
and half-pay, and if this sum had been
increasing since 1822, it was time to con-
sider if the whole establishment could not
be gradually diminished, instead of taking
any partial view. He had listened with
attention to his right hon. friend, the
Secretary of War, but had not clearly
ltl1dergtoio that there was any other
difference between continuing the full pay


to officers holding other situations, and
not continuing the half-pay, than that the
one was usual, and the other-not. As to
the colonels of regiments, he did not look
on their appointments as a remuneration
for past services; these appointments
involved, he believed, certain duties, and
the colonels had no other remuneration.
He wished to see the principle of the Act
of Parliament extended to all classes of
pensions and allowances. It would be
well for the Government to take up this
subject; but if it did not, and if no other
hon. Member, more competent to the task
than himself, did, he did not know that he
should not call the attention of the House
to the subject, before the close of the
Session. Something like principle ought
to be acted on throughout; and he
thought that the principle of the bill in-
troduced by the hon. Member for Dorset-
shire, that on the acceptance of an office,
double the value of any half-pay or allow-
ance, the latter should be suspended; and
on the acceptance of an office of less
value, half the half-pay or allowance
should be suspended-was the principle
that ought to be adopted. If that were
not done, and if the House did not take
some opportunity of considering the whole
subject, the six millions might be increased
to a yet greater sum. He must say, that
for this large expenditure the Government
was not to blame; it had been forced on
the Government. In times of ease and
prosperity they all knew with what facility
grants of money were made; and if they
did not, when in difficulty, press for
reduction and relief, it was not likely that
any would be obtained. Looking at the
whole question, he would beg his hon.
friend to withdraw his Motion.
Mr. R. Gordon, in reply, did not think
the right hon. Gentleman had answered
his objections; and he hoped that the
right hon. Gentleman who spoke last
would move either for a Select Committee
or a Committee of the whole House, to
inquire into the subject. With an under-
standing that the subject would be taken
up by his Majesty's Ministers, or by the
right hon. Gentleman, he would consent
to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. Secretary Peel protested against its
being understood that his Majesty's Go-
vernment was pledged to a motion of
which no notice had been given, and of
which he did not yet know the terms. As
an earnest of the intentions of his Majes-


119; Supply-


COMMONSNS)






21 Siupply.


ty's Government with respect to salaries,
he would remind the House, that the
Session before last, his right hon. friend,
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) intro-
duced a bill to regulate the retiring allow-
ances of the civil servants of the Govern-
ment, according to the recommendation of
the Finance Committee. He did not pro-
pose to deprive any of the servants of the
Government of their retired allowances,
but he proposed to deduct a per centage
from all salaries to form a Superannuation
Fund. But how did the House meet
the views of his right hon. friend ? He
was unable to pass the bill. He received
no support. His right hon. friend had
now the subject under his consideration,
and would have no objection to revive -the
proposition of the Session before last.
Mr. Hushisson wished the hon. Member
to understand that he had not pledged
himself to move for any Committee, but
only that he might possibly call the atten-
tion of the House to the subject, if no
Member more competent to the task than
himself should take it up. He thought
the whole subject required revision, but he
was of opinion that some better opportu-
nity should be found than on that occa-
sion, to go into the matter.
Mr. Secretary Peel informed the House
that the principle of the bill formerly in-
troduced into the House had been applied
to every person subsequently accepting
office, and to all new offices. A deduction
had been made from their salaries to form
a fund for retiring allowances.
Lord Hozwick hoped his hon. friend
would not withdraw his Motion, unless he
received a distinct pledge from the Go-
vernment that it would go into a general
inquiry. He regretted that the hon. Mem-
ber for Westminster, and the hon. Mem-
ber for Kircudbright should encourage the
Government in its extravagance. The
Government was ready enough to attend
to recommendations similar to those.
When the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had brought in the bill alluded to, he had
not marshalled all his forces to pass it;
and he had withdrawn it after a very
feeble opposition from the hon. Gentleman,
who was then on the Opposition side of
the House, and was now Paymaster of the
Army. Since then, the right hon. Gen-
tleman had done nothing on the subject.
He had allowed a whole Session to pass
away, and had made no effort to get over
his defeat. He hoped that hishon, friend


would not withdraw his Motion, unless5a
distinct pledge were given that an inquiry
should be instituted into the Dead Weight.
He would call on the right hon. Gentle-
man to say whether or not he would grant
,such an inquiry ? If the right hon. Gen-
tleman would consent, he would recom-
mend the hon. Member to withdraw hit
Motion; if not, he recommended him to
persevere.
Mr. Maberly defended the Government.
He was sure that it was ready to go fully
into any suchinquiry as that recommended.
It was very seldom that he rose for such a
purpose; but he was bound, in justice to
the Government to declare, that he be-
lieved it was ready to go immediately into
the investigation. He thought that the
same principle that was applied to persons
receiving half-pay ought to be applied uni-
versally, and that no person ought to be
allowed to hold two offices, and receive
two salaries.
Mr. Secretary Peel could not suppose
that the House would be so unjust as to
require that the Ministers should pledge
themselves to a Motion of which no notice
had been given, and of which the terms
were not known. Did the noble Lord
wish to deprive officers of their half-pay ?
On Monday next his right hon.friend was
to bring forward his view of the financial
state of the country. The ordinary ex-
penditure of the country was 11,000,0001.
and the Dead Weight and Pensions
amounted to 6,000,0001., and was it to be
supposed that his right hon. friend would
allow the 6,000,0001. to escape his atten-
tion ? In the absence of his right hon.
friend, he could not be expected to pledge
himself to any measure similar to that re-
quired by the noble Lord.
Lord Howick only rose to guard him-
self against its being supposed that he
wished to touch the half-pay of officers,
or to deprive any person of the emoluments
he then possessed ; but he wanted a pledge
that there should be no increase.
Sir H. Hardinge understood the hon.
Member to accuse the Government of
gross partiality, in continuing the allow-
ances of general officers while subalterns'
were obliged to give up their half-pay on
accepting office. But the House would
remember that in 1815 it was recom-
mended that the number of general offi-
cers should be diminished; and from 378,
their number then, they had been gradually
reduced to 120, by which a saving had


{MARCH 9}


Siippl'i.






Supply. 24


been cfLetlcd of 33,0001. This betrayed
no partiality to the general officers.
On the Question being put on the origi-
nral Motion,
Mr. Hume suggested, that it would be
wise in the House to withhold the grant
till after the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had made his financial statement.
Mr. R. Gordon had no desire to press
the Motion if the right hon. Member for
Liverpool would undertake the inquiry.
Mr. Huskisson would only pledge him-
self to turn his attention to the subject in
the course of the Session.
Lord Howick hoped the right hon. Gen-
tleman would do so, as no person could
accomplish the matter so well.
The Amendment, by the leave of the
House, withdrawn.
The Report of the Committee of Supply
was brought up. Several items were agreed
to without opposition. On the Question
that the House agree to the Resolution of
the Committee for granting 32,0001. for
Exchequer Fees,
Mr. Hume took the opportunity of ob-
serving,that the quarantine establishments
were at present expensive ; and to express
his hope that, if any vacancies occurred in
them, or in any other offices of the State,
that they would not be filled up.
Mr. Herries believed, that his right hon.
friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
did not need the suggestion of the hon.
Member to attend to the subject he had
alluded to. It had engaged the serious
and careful consideration of his Majesty's
Ministers. As to the Treasury, he could
say that it had, to the utmost of its power,
carried into execution the recommendation
of the Finance Committee, with regard to
salaries and superannuations. The noble
Lord (Lord Howick) had done his right
hon. friend injustice by accusing him of
lukewarmness in regard to the bill he had
brought into the House the Session before
last. He knew that his right hon. friend
had made the greatest exertions to get that
bill through the House, but he had not
been supported, with the exception of the
hon. Member for Montrose, even by the
Members of the Finance Committee.
Resolution agreed to.
On the Question that the House agree
to the Resolution of the Committee to
gialti 60.6121. to his Majesty, to defray
the C penrise of Volunteers,
,Z'r. 1r, le csprestd his surprise that
tiis y~t should be continued, If we were


to have Volunteers they ought to be real
Volunteers, who should pay for 'them-
selves. For his part, he thought the Go-
vernment should have an opportunity to
take the question into consideration, and
time afforded them for carrying reductions
into effect; and he would therefore move,
as an Amendment, "that 30,3061.be grant-
ed for a period of six months; that is, until
the 30th of June of the present year."
On the Question being put,
Mr. Portman said, he would give the
Motion hiswarmest support. He expressed
a hope that on the eve of a Motion by the
right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Horton) for
taking into consideration the causes of the
present extent of suffering among the
poorer classes, the House would not allow
this last proposition, for a just and wise
reduction of the Estimates, to be frittered
away like the former ones. He agreed
most fully with the hon. Member, that the
Volunteers should perform voluntary ser-
vice; and that in times like the present,
unless they could be supported without
such an enormous expense, tte country
would be better without their services.
He would therefore implore hon. Members
to consider the necessity for economy ; and
he was confident there was not a man in
the House, meaning honestly and sincerely
to relieve the burthens of the people, who
could refuse his vote to the Amendment
now proposed.
Sir H. Hardinge did not mean again to
trouble the House with any observations
on this subject after the very protracted
discussion, of more than two hours, which
it had undergone on a former occasion.
The Estimates, he repeated, were framed
on as low a scale as they could be; and
he put it to the courtesy of the hon. Mem-
ber whether he would thus continue an
opposition which so many majorities had
already decided to be ill-founded.
The House then divided-For the origi-
nal Resolution 104: For the Amend-
ment 59 :-Majority 45.
Original Resolutions agreed to.

List of the Minority.


Althorp, Lord
Baring, Sir T.
Baring, A.
Baring, F.
Baring, B.
Bentiick, Lord G,
Blake, Sir F.
Bright, IH.


Burrell, W.
Burdett, Sir F.
Burrell, C.
Cave, O.
Carter, J.
Carew, R.
Dundas, hon. T,
Peison.J. B.


Supply,


TCOMMONJSI






25 Duties of High Sherif.


Tbringtoi, Lord
Fa.,k.rky, J. N.
Fane, J.
Fyler, T. B.
Hoye, J. B.
Jephson, C. D. 0.
Lennard, C. B.
Lamb, hon. J.
Lott, H.B.
Lester, B.
Labouchere, H.
Monck, J. B.
Marjoribanks, S.
Macdonald, Sir J.
Martin, J.
Macqueen, T. P.
Nugent, Lord
O'Connell, D.
Parnell, Sir H.
Pendarvis, E. W.
Ponsonby, hon. F.
Price, R.
Palmer, C. F.


Philips, Sir G.
Philips, G. R.
Rice, T. S.
Russell, Lord J.
Robinson, G. R.
Rumbold, C. E.
Rickford, W.
Sandon, Lord
Smith, W.
Smith, V.
Sebright, Sir J.
Thomson, C. P.
Ward, J.
Warburton, 11.
White, Col.
Wood, C.
Wood, Alderma
Whitmore, W. W.
Wrottesley, Sir J.
Wilbraham, G.
TELLERS.
Humne, J.
Portman, E. B.


DUTIES OF HIGH SHERIFF.] Mr.
Fysche Palmer, pursuant to notice, rose,
to move for a Committee to inquire into
the nature*of the Duties of High Sheriff,
and entered into a detail of the various
complicated subjects on which a High
Sheriff was expected to be conversant, and
of the number of Courts in which he was
supposed to preside, if he fulfilled in person
the duties of his office. Among these he
enumerated the presiding in the County
Courts, the protection of the public as
conservator of the peace, his duties as
Collector of the Crown Rents, and as the
officer called on to execute all writs issued
within the county. All these, and many
other judicial and ministerial functions,
were performed by a man who was com-
pelled to discharge a large portion of the
expenses out of his own pocket, and who
was liable to be prosecuted for the failure
or misconduct of his officers. Every ex-
pense of the Judges of Assize was paid by
the Sheriff-the table of their attendants,
the coals, the beer, the wine consumed at
their place of residence--all was defrayed
by the property of the High Sheriff, while
he was, at the same time, compelled to
bring a vast number of retainers to the
court town, at his own entire cost, to be
employed as javelin-men, and for other
purposes. To so great an extent had this
gone, that a law was passed in the 13th
and 14th of Charles the Second by which
it was enacted, that no Sheriff should be
compelled to keep a table at the Assize
town f6r any save the members of his own
family, or the judges' servants; that he


was not at any time to bring forth more
than forty retainers; but for the sake of
decency and a proper regard to the dignity
of his station, he was not to appear with
less than twenty in England or twelve in
Wales, to be employed as javelin-men. He
had procured a return of the amount of
expenses incurred in one county, and he
found that they amounted to about 1,3001.
while the whole of the receipts were only
6001. so that the remaining 7001. remained
to be made good out of the pocket of the
Sheriff. Looking at the extent of duty
required from the High Sheriff, and the
expenses to which he was subjected in the
performance of these duties, he thought
they were by much too numerous and too
great to be demanded from any gentleman
of ordinary fortune; and he, therefore,
proposed to bring the subject under the
consideration of a Select Committee, for
the purpose of ascertaining to what ex-
tent the duties might be lightened and the
expenses removed. He should, therefore,
without troubling the House by going into
any further details, move at once for a
Select Committee to take into their con-
siderationthe Duties and Expenses attend-
ing the execution of the office of High
Sheriff in England and Wales, with a view
to devise some means to reduce or amend
the same.
Mr. Hudson Gurney begged the House
to recollect that the office of High Sheriff
was an ancient one, of very great import-
ance, and always filled by gentlemen of
rank, character, and fortune. In his
opinion, if the House were to make those
alterations and reformations which the
hon. Member seemed to aim at in his
speech, the result would be, that the office
must fall into the hands of men in a lower
and humbler rank of society than those
who had hitherto filled it with so much
advantage to the country. The Motion
of the hon. Member seemed to go to the
reformation of points so extremely frivo-
lous, that it would be worse than idle to
give it the support of the House.
Motion agreed to. Committee appointed.

STATE OF THE POOR.] Mr. W. Horton
then rose to make his promised Motion for
a Committee of the whole House to inquire
into the State of the Poor in the United
Kingdom. The hon. Member commenced
by observing, that he preferred nmo ing for
a Committee of the whole House rather
than a Select Committee, because h'e


IMARCI:1 91


State of the, Poor.






Distress of the Poor. 28


thought it would be more satisfactory to
the sufferers to hear the course of the
proceedings as they occurred, and the
nature of the evidence offered in their
favour, than if the subject were to be
examined in the usual manner by a Com-
mittee especially appointed for the pur-
pose. He thought it necessary to premise,
in the outset, that he wished to confine his
inquiries solely to the distress prevailing
among those poorer classes whose labours
were the most productive, and who receiv-
ed at present so small an extent of remu-
neration in proportion to the labour which
they were called on to employ. After all
the attention he had been able to give the
subject, he was convinced that the distress
of this class was to be found in the super-
abundance of the number who required
employment in proportion to the demand
for labour; and that the class most mate-
rially interested in the removal of this evil
was that on which the maintenance of the
labourers principally fell, he meant the
landed interest of the country. When he
heard so many discussions, night after
night, on the subject of the reduction of
general taxation, he confessed he was at
a loss to understand why the House should
allow the Poor-laws to escape considera-
tion, and why it did not direct its attention,
in settling the balance sheet, to the reduc-
tion of the seven or eight millions of taxa-
tion which pressed on the landed interest,
through the poor-rates, just as ardently as
the Members applied themselves to procure
a relief from those other taxes which
pressed on the industry of the country.
In entering on an inquiry of this kind, it
would be well worth while to look at the
opinions entertained with respect to the
distress of the labouring classes at different
periods of our history. In the year 1796,
Mr. Whitbread introduced a bill into the
House for the purpose of regulating the
Wages of Labourers inHusbandry.* This,
be it recollected, was before the Bank of
England was authorised to refuse payments
in gold, and before any of those changes
which were afterwards introduced into the
monetary system had been carried into
effect, and yet even then the people were,
as now, suffering under that redundancy
of labourers, which he maintained to be
the great cause of the distress. Mr.
Whitbread, in the discussion on the bill,
ied' Some language which was peculiarly
remarkablee with reference to this fact.
He :said, In most parts of the country


the labourer had long been struggling
with increasing misery, till the pressure
had become almost too grievous to be
endured, while the patience of the sufferers
under their accumulated distresses had
been conspicuous and exemplary." t These
were praises which, if applied to the
manner in which the great body of the
people bore their distresses and sufferings,
could scarcely be too highly coloured.
Ever since, the people had continued in
the same state, and had borne their suffer-
ings with equal patience. Mr. Whitbread
observed on the same occasion, That by
the pressure of the times, marriage was
discouraged; and among the labouring
classes of the community, the birth of a
child, instead of being hailed as a blessing,
was considered as a curse." : To remedy
these evils Mr. Whitbread recommended
a minimum of wages to be fixed; and he
argued that the Act of Elizabeth had
established a maximum of the price of
labour, which was good against the
labourer, but that it had established no
minimum which would be good against
the employer. Mr. Pitt, in the same
debate, admitted, instead of denying the
extent of the distress; but he argued
against the fixing a minimum of wages, as
contrary to all general principles, and
concluded in these words: -" What
measure, then, could be found to supply
the defect ? Let us (said he) make relief,
in cases where there are a number of
children, a matter of right and an honour,
instead of a ground for opprobrium and
contempt." And Mr. Fox and Mr. Whit-
bread concluded by recommending the
Government to provide a liberal premium
for the encouragement of large families.
If the principle that a surplus of labourers
produced a redundancy of labour; and
that the principle of demand and supply
was applicable to that as well as to other
commodities, had been then known and
recognized, he believed these distinguished
statesmen would have been induced to
recant their errors. But the assertion of
Mr. Pitt, with respect to labourers, was
about as rational as if he had proposed to
cure a glut of sugar by increasing the
quantity in the market. After observing
that Mr. Whitbread proposed two bills
subsequent to the year 1807, when the
book of Mr. Malthus appeared, and: that
they were not free from the errors of the
* Hansard's Parl. Hist. vol. xxxii. p.700.
f ib. 70. ib.704. ib.709,'


,S Dstressof the Poor.


{ COMMONS






{MARCH 9} Distress of the Poor.


former, for one of the clauses proposed a
premium to the father of a family of six
children, the hon. Member proceeded to
say, that Mr. Ricardo was the only person
who seemed, on the discussion of those
bills, which were afterwards lost in the
Lords, to have any idea that a redundancy
of population diminished the amount of
wages, and that the bills were calculated
to increase the evils they proposed to cure.
When, therefore, they saw that, in the year
1796, the same complaints were made as
at present, and that the poorer classes were
suffering the same privations, he thought
it must be admitted, that the evils did not
flow altogether from an increase of taxa-
tion. In the work of a gentleman named
Barton, with which he thought nearly all
the Members of the House must be
acquainted, and which contained more
information than almost any other on these
subjects, he found it observed, that if it
could be proved that in Switzerland and
other countries the same distress was
suffered as in this country; if the people
of countries of the Continent, where there
was no paper currency, and where there
had always been a free importation of
grain ; if countries inhabited by a people
poor and agricultural, were labouring under
the same evils as a country rich, manu-
facturing and luxurious; did it not show
that there existed some cause for that
distress, common to all, and independent
of those local circumstances to which it
was generally attributed ?" Now he would
ask the House to say, whether that cause
was not the redundancy of population,
which rendered the wages of labour in-
sufficient for the maintenance of the la-
bourer? The laws of those countries
involved principles much more severe
than we dared to resort to in this country ;
principles, however, the result of which
was to maintain the labouring classes in
a state of comparative ease and indepen-
dence; a state to which pauperism was
almost, if not altogether, unknown. With
respect to the bills which at various
periods had been introduced into that
House, for the purpose of establishing a
better system of regulations for the poor,
they had all failed; they had all been aban-
doned by their original promoters; and no
material alteration had taken place on the
subject. The bill which was introduced
in 1822 by Mr. Nolan, in a very able and
argumentative speech,* was more analogous
Hansard's Parl. Deb. vol, vii, s. p. 1560.


to the principles maintained by him (Mr.
Horton) than any of the measures which
had been proposed with similar views; but
still it did not suggest any practical
remedy for the existing evil which appeared
to him to be of sufficient efficacy. After
all the attention that he had bestowed
upon this subject, and he could assure
the -louse that he had bestowed upon it
the most anxious attention; he would
suggest to any one who should in future
wish to undertake an amelioration of our
present condition with respect to the poor,
the advantage that would be derived from
considering them under four separate
heads. First-the poor who had real
employment, and who maintained them-
selves by the actual wages of their labour;
such persons were free from pauperism;
privations they certainly suffered as com-
pared with other parts of the community:
but for that there was no remedy. The
next class was the helpless poor; who,
however they might wish to labour, were
destitute of the power to do so, either
from too great age, or too great youth, or
sickness, or accident; and who must be
supported by charity, whether that
charity was compulsory, and prescribed by
law, or whether it flowed spontaneously
from the benevolence of individuals. The
third class consisted of those whom he
was desirous especially to distinguish by
the appellation of the pauper class ;"
being able-bodied men, willing to work,
but who could not get employment, and
who, if not assisted by others, must perish.
That was the class which now demanded
the most serious attention of the legisla-
ture, in order to endeavour to discover the
best means of disposing of it. The last
class was beggars; persons who preferred
living on charity to supporting themselves
by honest industry, and who, while they
could find any individuals in the country
prepared to relieve their necessities, would
look to no other means of subsistence.
Every one conversant with the laws of
production knew that no capitalist would
go on producing any article unless he
could obtain a remunerating price for it.
But the labourer had no choice. He
must continue to offer his labour, not
while he could obtain a remunerating price
for it, but while he could prevail upon any
one to employ him at whatever price. In
the large classes supported by charity
must be comprehended those who received
money for anything but for their labour,


29 Distress of the Poor.






31 Distress of the Poor:


If, therefore, a man received money from
the parish to make good the deficiency of
his wages, the mere fact of his receiving
wages did not take him out of the pauper
class. Such a practice, however, was
productive of the greatest evils. It ope-
rated specifically against the interest of
the strongest and the best labourer; for it
brought society into competition against
him; diminished the average price of
labour; and, finally, reduced him to a
state of poverty to which all hope was
denied. On these grounds it was, that he
highly approved of the bill which an hon.
friend of his had introduced, for prevent-
ing any part of the wages of labourers
from being paid out of the poor-rates ; or,
in other words, to prevent the private
employers of labour from being assisted
out of any corporate funds. One modifi-
cation, however, he wished to see of his
hon. friend's bill, namely, that in the
case of any labourer having a large
family, which he was incapable of support-
ing on his wages, if those wages were such
as would be sufficient for the support of
an unmarried and unencumbered labourer,
that then the parish should pay to the
married labourer the balance necessary
for the maintenance of his family. With-
out entering into the consideration of
the mode of levying the poor-rates, the
first suggestion which he would take the
liberty of throwing out upon the subject
was, that in the accounts of every parish
the sums paid to the helpless poor should
be kept separate from the sums paid to
the third class which he had described, or
the pauper poor. By such a regulation,
they would obtain an account of the
redundant labouring population. His
next suggestion would be, to empower
parishes to employ the able-bodied poor in
concentrated labour, instead of employing
them in their separate parishes. It ap-
peared to him that in many instances,
labour, which afforded no return when
employed in separate parishes, would be
productive, if the labour of several parishes
were concentrated. Another suggestion
would be, to frame some regulations for
restricting the erection of cottages in
parishes where it was shown that a great
redundancy of labour existed. A check
of this description would be most advan-
tageous. He was also decidedly of opin-
ion, that to give the able-bodied poor, the
natural labourers of the country, a small
quantity of ground for their own cultiva-


tion, would be attended with highly bene-
ficial consequences. In support of his
principle of the existence of a large re-
dundance of the labouring population, he
would refer to a petition from one of the
hundreds of the county of Bedford,
presented to the House towards the close
of the last Session of Parliament. In
that petition it was stated that 4,0001. was
paid yearly by that hundred for labour,
for which there was no return; and that the
system was productive of serious crime and
of every variety of shade of moral turpi-
tude; and presented a picture of pau-
perism of the most deplorable character.
The petition proceeded to state what pro-
portion of the able-bodied labourers of
the hundred would be sufficient to perform
all the ordinary and habitual labour of
the hundred. The number of able-bodied
labourers in the parish was 2,177. After
making every due allowance for harvests
and other casual demands, it appeared
that 1,496 would be sufficient to perform
the work of the hundred; and, conse-
quently, that in the hundred in question,
containing thirteen parishes, 681 able-
bodied labourers might be advantageously
spared. He was persuaded that if by the
means which he had recommended an
account of the redundant labour-popula-
tion of the country were to be forth-
coming, it would create much astonish-
ment. He by no means meant to say that
much of this redundant labour might not,
at a future period, be again absorbed; but
he contended, that while it continued to
press upon the food of productive labour,
it occasioned the most serious evils. He
had, as might easily be supposed, received
numerous letters and other communica-
tions, anonymous and otherwise, on the
subject to which he had paid so much at-
tion; and among them one from an en-
lightened individual, a man of the highest
possible character, who, speaking of his
own neighbourhood, stated that a strong
desire for emigration prevailed, that the
labouring population were sinking with
an accelerating velocity into the jaws of
pauperism, and that the funds of the parish
were insufficient to remedy the evil; or, to
use his own forcible expression, "to re-
lieve the wretchedness of the labouring
population, breeding and starving in a
paroxysm of hopelessness and fatuity."
The state of Ireland afforded a sufficient
proof of the evils which resulted to the
labouring classes from the absence of all


COMMONS}


Distress ofp the Poor. 32






State of the Poor. 34.


check on the increase of population. The
existence of a state in the most wretched
pauperism was not in itself a check on
that increase. This was clearly estab-
lished in Mr. Barton's letter, to which he
had already referred. Mr. Hodges, a
gentleman from Kent, who gave evidence
before the Emigration Committee, said
that in proportion as the labouring popu-
lation became more miserably poor, they
became more reckless, and married at an
early age, without the slightest regard to
any consequences. This was a fact es-
tablished by experience, and by communi-
cations from other quarters. He was one
of those who thought that if the poor-
laws were properly regulated, they would
be very beneficial. He conceived that the
existence of judicious poor-laws indicated
a high state of civilization in any country.
But of this he was certain, that a country
in which there was a free circulation of
labour, as well as of other commodities,
must be everywhere under the same law
respecting the poor. If twenty counties
were without a poor-law, and twenty
counties were with one, that would be pro-
ductive of great evil. For his part, he
could see no reason why, now that our
union with Ireland was cemented, the in-
terposition of the ocean should prevent
Ireland from having the same poor-law as
England. But he should be very sorry to
see the poor-laws inflicted on Ireland,
unless she possessed the means of getting
rid of her redundant labouring population.
The object of the legislature ought to be
to distinguish between that class of the
population which lived upon the produce
of the labour provided by private em-
ployers, and that class which lived upon
other sources. If the House wanted to
introduce a prudent and effective check to
increasing population, it must make a sub-
stantive distinction between the two classes
which he had described. The labouring
classes must be taught to feel the dis-
grace of pauperism, and they would then
anxiously avoid it. At present no such
anxiety existed. Until it revived, every
effort would be hopeless. It was im-
possible to consider the situation of the
poor in this country, without adverting
to the effect produced by the influx of
the Irish poor. He by no means intended
to say that the Irish poor ought not to be
allowed to come over to this country.
But the potato of Ireland was one of the
substantial causes of the increase of popu-
VOL. XXIII.


lation in that country. This potatoe-fedi
population came over to this country to enter
into competition with our labouring poor,
because there was no law in Ireland calling
on the rich, under any circumstances, to
provide for the poor. So little were the
poor of Ireland relieved by the rich of
Ireland, that whenever there was a failure
in the potatoe-crop of Ireland, exposing
the poor of that country to starvation,
English benevolence always extended its
assistance to them. Thus, however, a
bonus was given to the increase of dis-
tress in both countries. All he asked was
the extension to Ireland of the laws on
the subject which were established in
Great Britain; and then the potatoe-fed
population of Ireland would prove bene-
ficial to the empire. He wished he could
see an attempt made to separate the
pauper population from the labouring
population of Ireland. The Report of the
Committee of 1825, to inquire into the
state of the Irish poor, stated that, of the
former class, no fewer than a million were
strolling over the country. It would be a
most beneficial policy to introduce into
Ireland a National Mendicity Association.
The reports of such an Association would
distinctly exhibit the amount of the redun-
dant population of Ireland. Until that
was ascertained, all legislative proceed-
ings respecting the poor would be prema-
ture. If it shouldbe afterwards found, on
experiment, that the redundant population
might be advantageously employed at
home, after the example of the Dutch, let
that be tried. If, on the other hand, it
should appear that the advantage of the
community would be more promoted by
national colonization, some plan for car-
rying that colonization into beneficial
effect should be devised. All he con-
tended for was, that something must be
done to put an end to a system which, if
not checked, would multiply misery to an
indefinite extent. Until, however, the day
arrived when the labouring classes of the
community should be convinced of the
truth of what he had stated, and that the
misery of their present situation, proceed-
ing from redundancy, could be remedied
only by removal, he was convinced that
the Representative Body could never take
any salutary step. He therefore called
on the intelligent part of that class of the
community, on the labourers and me-
chanics who had received the benefits of
education, and who were competent t the
C


33 State of the Poor.


{ MARCH 9}







35 State of the Poor.


consideration, to investigate the subject,
and to determine if there was not truth in
his statement, that where the numbers of
the population were redundant, no legis-
lative measure, no remission of taxes, or
any other proceeding, could effectually
put down pauperism. In 1826, a small
experiment had been tried at Manchester.
In the year 1825, the population of that
town, 200,000 in number, was in a state
of the greatest possible distress. The
richer inhabitants determined to give
work to all, at low wages. He had been
told by an intelligent individual, that
many persons supposed that there was
a redundant population, others that there
was no redundant population, but nothing
certain was established on that point.
The people were put to work, however;
they were taken back into the general de-
mand as they were required, and at no
very distant period they were all absorbed.
No one could deny that there was a great
difference between the condition of the
agricultural and the condition of the ma-
nufacturing population. The fact was,
that whereas the demand for manual
labour required in agriculture diminished,
the demand for manual labour required in
manufactures increased. In agriculture
the improved processes had occasioned a
greater produce, with less manual labour ;
but in manufactures the improvement of
machinery, were it not for the introduc-
tion of Irish labourers, would have greatly
increased the demand for, and bettered the
condition of, the workmen. For the last
thirty years, however, the latter had been
kept down by the influx from Ireland.
He could not avoid saying a few words on
the subject of the currency. Many hon.
Gentlemen appeared to be of opinion that
a change-a depreciation-in our cur-
rency would operate to remove the na-
tional distress. Never, in the history of
mankind, however, had the depreciation
of the value of the money of any country
produced any thing but misery to the
labouring classes. This was undeniably
true; and ought to enter into all the con-
siderations of the legislature, when we
were contemplating measures for the re-
lief of those classes. The people at large
ought to know that if, by a change of the
standard, or by the introduction of paper,
money were depreciated five-and-twenty
per cent, the consequence would be, that
every shilling received by a labourer or an
artizan would be practically reduced in


value to ninepence. It was true that
time would afford a slow remedy for this
evil, and that wages would gradually in-
crease in the proportion of from one shil-
ling to one shilling and threepence; but
it would be then, and then only, that the
situation of the labourer or of the artizan
would be upon a par with his situation
before the depreciation of the currency.
When, therefore, he heard a depreciation
of the currency described as a means of
relief for the labouring classes, he only
wished that those who so described it
would consider the subject a little, and
they would perceive that the sole ten-
dency of such a depreciation would be, to
benefit the debtor at the expense of the
unfortunate creditor. He protested, there-
fore, against such a proposition; which,
instead of relieving, would only add to
the distresses of the labouring classes, and
would not add a single grain of value to
the wealth of the country. As to the
changes which had already taken place in
the currency, he did not pretend to say
that the landed interest had not been
affected by them. But if those changes
were now to be renewed, and all the evils
attendant on the alteration of the real
terms of contracts were again to be pro-
duced, and that not only without bene-
fitting, but very much to the injury of the
labouring classes of the community, such
a proceeding would experience his entire
condemnation. Nor could the labouring
classes derive the slightest relief from
any such remission of taxation as would
render it impracticable to keep up the
necessary establishments of the country,
and at the same time preserve faith with
the public creditor. He should grossly de-
ceive the people were he to tell them that
they must look for relief to such a remis-
sion of taxation. There was another
sound principle which he wished to incul-
cate on this subject. It was impossible
that any remission of taxes could mate-
rially affect the situation of the paupers.
Those who had to dispense charity might
certainly, by a remission of taxes, havetheir
means of doing so increased; but those
who were to be maintained out of that
charity-in other words, the redundant
labouring population-must be benefitted
in a very small degree by the remission of
taxation, since it would not increase the
amount of employment. He alluded es-
pecially to this part of the subject, because
it had been said that the remission of the


f COMMONS I


1State of the Poor.






37 State of the Poor.


{MARCH 9}


Malt and Beer Tax would do the pauper
population good. It was impossible to do
that portion of our population good while
it remained in a state of pauperism, because
its existence involved a constant compe-
tition among the labouring population.
The remission of taxation could not reach
those who were in a state of actual pau-
perism, and a large class, both in this
country and in Ireland, were approxi-
mating to that class. All he was anxious
for was, to excite attention to the state of
pauperism. If any doubt remained on the
minds of hon. Members of the soundness
of the doctrines which he had laid down,
inquiry would convince them that that
doubt was unfounded. If he were suc-
cessful in his Motion, and were allowed to
bring the subject before a committee, the
propositions which he should be prepared
to maintain, and which he would en-
deavour to prove, would be as follow :--
"1. That the sums raised and applied for the
relief of the poor in England and Wales,
though mainly bearing on one particular class
of the community-viz, the landed interest-
ought to be considered, after the deduction of
that portion which would otherwise be paid as
wages, as much in the nature of a tax as
any of those taxes which are to be found in the
balance-sheet of the Revenue and expenditure
of the country.
2. That if a pauper population, for whose
labour there is no real demand, can be pros-
perously colonized (with their own consent) at
a less expense than would be necessary to be
incurred for their maintenance in the mother
country, a national outlay for the purpose of
such colonization ought to be considered as an
economy rather than as an expense.
3. That if a redundant population were
removed by a national effort of colonization,
there would be but little danger to be appre-
hended from what is called the filling-up of
the vacuum.'
4. That if the United Kingdom were re-
lieved from its redundant labourers-that is,
those labourers for whose labour no real and
natural demand exists in society.; the remain-
ing labourers might permanently remain in a
state of comparativecomfortand independence.
5. That it is expedient to effect such repa-
ration and abstraction of forced from unforced
labour as would accurately measure the extent
of the redundancy.
6. That to enable parishes to raise money
upon mortgage of their poor-rates for a period
of years; such capital being specifically applied
towards the emigration of voluntary candidates
who may prefer independence in the colonies
to pauperism at home; would be a measure
highly favourable to the landed interest.
7. That in the event of home colonization,
the ratio of danger as to the filling-up of the


State of the Poor.


vacuum must be double as compared with
foreign colonization.
8. That if the vacuum were to be filled
up, the policy of a measure of colonization
must be governed by a comparison of the
increment of the expense of maintaining the
new pauper population, with the decrement of
the expense of maintaining the removed popu-
lation, supposing them to have remained at
home.
9. That there are no means of producing
wealth more effective than the combination of
an able-bodied population, with uncultivated
land of the first degree of fertility.
10. That, independently of the special
advantage to the landed interest, and to the
labouring classes, the expenditure involved in
such a measure of colonization would not be,
in any degree, prejudicial to other classes
possessing property in society.
11. That, as a pauper, while he continues
a pauper, receives necessarily only a bare sub-
sistence, he can neither suffer from taxation,
nor be relieved by its remission.
12. That the application of any portion of
surplus revenue for the purpose of raising a
capital to be applied in the first instance in
the home employment, and secondly, in the
colonization of the poor, would be more benefi-
cial to the labouring classes of the community,
than if the same sum were applied in the
reduction of public debt, or in the remission of
any class of taxes to the same amount."
An examination would enable him to
convince the House that what he had
stated was the fact; and then only, when
the House were really disposed to make
the experiment, would it be able to afford
substantial relief to the labouring and
suffering classes of the country. He
begged to offer the House his best thanks
for the attention with which they had
heard him, and he would now no further
trouble them than by quoting an aphorism
of Lord Bacon, who was the enemy of
colonization in general, but whom he con-
sidered the best defender of the principle
which he had endeavoured to recommend
to the House. Lord Bacon had said,
Things will alter for the worse spon-
taneously, if they are not remedied deci-
dedly; and then who can say what will be
the end of the evil ?" In the same
manner he would say, that if things were
not altered speedily and decidedly, they
would go on getting worse spontaneously,
and there would be no end of the evil.
The population would be unemployed,
distress would increase; and if a year
passed on without Members being con-
vinced of the truth of what he had said,
the period would arrive when they would
see there was no other measure but a well-
C2







State of the Poor. 40


planned system of emigration, which could
reach the intensity of the evil, and then
they would feel the mortification of dis-
appointment, until opinion universally
pointed to the true remedy; to that which
he had endeavoured, though imperfectly,
to describe. The right hon. Gentleman
concluded by moving that the House
resolve itself into a Committee of the
whole House to consider of the State of
the Poor of the United Kingdom."
Mr. Portman, in seconding the Motion
of his right honourable friend, said,
that he considered some plan of this
kind of the utmost importance to the
labouring classes of the country. He
was convinced that the redundancy of the
labouring population was the great cause
of their distress. That fact was shown in
the state of the county of Dorset. In the
short time he was in that county during
the Easter recess, no less than 370 persons
applied to him to procure them the means
of going out with their families to the
Swan River, for they were all without the
means of procuring a passage. The right
hon. Gentleman had made four divisions
of the poorer classes of this country. He
thought he could make two divisions that
would be as nearly accurate as those of
the right hon. Gentleman. He should,
he said, divide them into poor and paupers.
Of the whole of this country the portion
north of Warwick, or, perhaps, north of
the Thames, might be stated to be that in
which the majority of the people were
poor ; while in that portion of the kingdom
south of Warwick, or south of the Thames,
the majority of the people were paupers.
These latter might be sub-divided also into
two classes; those who were paupers in
consequence of age or infirmity, and those
who were reduced to that situation from
the want of sufficient wages to maintain
their families. Those who were reduced
to pauperism by age or infirmity were
supported by poor-laws, and with respect
to them no alteration was required;
but for those who sunk into pauper-
ism either from the want of work, or
from want of sufficient wages, it was
necessary that something should be done.
The House ought not to interfere with the
wages of labour. Mr. Burke had truly
said, that to attempt to establish a maxi-
mum or minimum of wages was mischiev-
ous in the extreme; for labour was a
commodity, and every interference with
the laws of trade for such a purpose must


be injurious. The profits of labour, not
the subsistence of the labourer, was the
object kept in view by the capitalist, and
the labouring classes were, therefore, only
fully employed when their employment
would afford a profit to the men who
engaged them. His right hon. friend
seemed to think that a diminution of taxes
would not produce any very favourable
effect. On that point he differed from
him; because he thought that a reduction
of taxation would put money into the
pocket of the agriculturalist, which would
enable him to take some additional pauper
labourers out of the market. Unfortu-
nately, in such a population as ours, every
married man was an evil, for the market
for labour was regulated by the bachelors,
and the married men must descend to
their terms, for the bachelor could not rise
to that of the married man. The evils of
tampering with this subject arose from
the endeavour to legislate for each parish,
and he thought there ought to be one
general measure, declaring that in each
parish the will of the majority of rate-
payers, assembled in vestry, should bind the
minority. The laws of settlement which
erected a wall round every parish, and
converted it into a prison for the labourer
ought to be altered, and then only would
the labourer have the means of carrying
his labour to a free market. He recom-
mended that a smallportion oflandshould
be given to each pauper, and he was
convinced that the poor-rates would then
be materially diminished. One great
means of alleviating the wants of the poor
man would be, to allow him to have a
small portion of land to cultivate. En-
couragement of that kind would prevent
him from falling into the condition of a
pauper. He believed that the multiplica-
tion of very large farms, which prevented
the poor man from getting a small quantity
of land to cultivate, had been attended
with very injurious effects. As the law of
settlement now stood, the poor man could
not procure land; because, if he rented
land to the amount of 101. a-year, it gave
him a right of settlement in the parish, a
circumstance which induced the land-
holder not to let his ground. The conse-
quence of this, and of what he might call
the destructive monopoly of the land,
combined with the poverty of the people,
were most afflicting. It happened; to him
lately to be present at a Quarter Sessions,
where a person was indicted for stealing


34 State'-of th~e Poor.


fCOMMONSI







haulm or bean-stalk, to place under his principles he had stated. Among the rest
father's feet. Another was tried for he could not possibly concur with what
stealing a truss of straw to make a bed. the right hon. Gentleman had said respect-
In the former instance the jury refused to ing the currency. He did not wish to
convict, because they said the practice of introduce that question unnecessarily into
taking haulm for such a purpose, and to this discussion, but he must make one
make litter for pigs, was universal in the observation upon what the right hon.
county. In the second case, they did Gentleman had said. He was not friendly
convict, but the man was strongly recom- to a depreciated currency; but he could
mended to mercy, on the ground that it not help thinking that the adoption of the
was also customary for the people to steal present currency had taken from a number
straw to make beds. If men were allowed of persons connected with the productive
a small piece of land, they could them- classes of society the same means of em-
selves cultivate it, and they would then playing the labour of men that they before
obtain litter for their cattle, and beds for possessed. He thought, therefore, that a
themselves, which they were now unable to limited return to our former currency
buy, and which it seemed they were com- would provide a greater means of employ-
pelled to steal. He knew, however, that ment, and consequently a greater demand
what he now proposed could not be adopt- for labour. He must confess that he was
ed without a change in the law of settle- quite astonished when he heard the right
ment. He hoped, that should the corn- hon. Gentleman say that the reduction of
mittee be appointed, the currency question taxation could have no effect on the
would be kept out of view, for it would labouring poor. Why the reduction of
only excite a difference, of opinion, and taxation would afford increased means of
detain the House from matter that was consumption to the higher and middle
much more important. classes, and consequently increased oppor-
Mr. J. Smith supported the plan of tunity of employment to the labouring
giving each pauper a small portion of poor. Without a large reduction of taxa-
land. He had done so three years ago, tion, he was convinced that emigration
to a certain extent, in the eastern division would afford but very little relief; for
of Sussex, and the result had been most though many might be removed, numbers
satisfactory. He had allotted to a number would soon spring up to fill up their
of poor persons rather more than one vacant places in the class to which they
acre each, and not only were they kept had belonged. In a parish near him, a
from demanding parish assistance, but, clergyman had nearly done away with the
beyond his utmost expectations, the result poor-rates, by apportioning the glebe land
had been most beneficial to himself. A for the poor to cultivate. This could not
Quaker gentleman, of the name of Allen, be done to a sufficient extent to relieve the
who also had property there, adopted the whole country, but relief might be effected
same plan; and he could assure the by a return to the former currency, united
House that every one of those individuals with a diminution of all the taxes that
who took these small portions of land paid pressed upon country labour.
their rent regularly; and they procured by Mr. Courtenay thought it would be
their labour on the soil from 3s. to 5s. 6d. extremely unadvisable to go into a com-
a-week. The consequence was, that they mittee, which would only occupy time
did not receive any parochial aid, and the without the least expectation of coming to
poor-rates in the parish had been reduced any practical result. He had still higher
nearly one-half. If, instead of this, ground on which to object to a committee.
individuals were compelled, as they were It would be an abuse to the country to
in many parts of England, to work on appoint a committee to take into consi-
the roads at 6d. and Sd. a day, and to deration the state of the labouring poor,
sleep in barns and out-houses, there could unless the House felt confident that that
be no wonder that they forgot their duty committee would be able to devise some-
to society, and thatwhen temptation came thing which would administer to the
in their way, they fell into the commission suffering classes extensive relief. He
of crime. He implored the attention of agreed with the right hon. Gentleman
the House to this subject. that there had been a great redundance of
Mr. Benett could not agree with the the labouring poor, but he could not bring
right hon. Gentleman as to many of the himself to believe that that redundance


41 State obthe Poor.


{Mancu1 9}


State of the Poor..







had been caused by the poor-rates. He the right hon. Gentleman to abandon his
had reflected much on this subject, and measure, and proceed with his bill for
he was satisfied, that all the House could emigration.
do would be to amend the poor-laws; and Mr. Slaney willingly acknowledged the
if that were not sufficient, then to have services rendered by the right hon. Gen-
recourse to emigration. But to attain tleman in bringing the subject before the
neither of these objects did a committee country, for there never was a period
appear to him to be the most desirable which more imperatively called upon the
mode of proceeding. The right hon. Gen- House, as a matter of policy and duty, to
tleman approved of the bill introduced by consider the question of population in
the hon. Member for Shrewsbury, and relation to the means of employment.
had proposed amendments to it, a course There had now been a period of fifteen
which he thought more likely to promote years of peace; and instead of having
the object the right hon. Gentleman had improved the condition of the labouring
in view than that which he now wished classes of the community, the peasantry
the House to adopt. The right hon. of the southern counties of England had
Gentleman had said, that of many select decidedly deteriorated. Mansions had
committees not one had produced any been built, and riches spread throughout
good; but he must remind him of one the land; the higher classes possessed
exception ; for one committee had pro- enjoyments which they had not possessed
duced a bill which had certainly checked before, and the middle classes had enjoy-
the progress of the poor-rates. The evil ments which their forefathers had not;
of the poor-rates had not increased in any but the working classes, by whose labour
thing like the proportion that had been they attained their enjoyments, instead of
expected twelve or thirteen years ago. advancing with the progress of civilization,
There was not a single term used by the had fallen back. No man who looked to
right hon. Gentleman, respecting the im- the consequences could contemplate-the
possibility of the country continuing to go effects of this continual deterioration with-
on as it had done, which had not been out alarm. Was not this a case to call on
used and applied over and over again in Government, and upon that House, calmly
the same manner during a century and a and sedulously, but firmly and steadily,
half. The right hon. Gentleman wished to look at once at the nature and extent of
to know how much of the poor-rates were the evil, and at its probable consequences.
paid to those who were willing to labour, The great body of the working classes
but could not get work, and he had re- might be divided into two sets perfectly
commended a classification of paupers, distinct- he meant the agricultural and
but neither of these objects were proper manufacturing population; but of the
to be debated in a committee. If a com- latter it was not his intention to say a
mittee upon the subject were to consist of single word. With reference to the
thirty-five Members, he was sure there peasantry, they might be divided likewise
would be thirty-four plans and a half into two classes, perfectly and clearly
started, each of which would require to distinct from each other. An hon. Mem-
be debated. The letting of lands to la- ber had spoken of the redundancy of the
bourers would be facilitated by the bill population, which certainly might exist in
then in the House, which gave a power the south of England, but it could not be
to parishes to let out land for the employ- said to exist in the northern counties.
ment of the poor. He could only say, The greatest distinction existed between
that whatever improved the prosperity of the southern and northern parts of the
the country must improve the condition of kingdom, as much, indeed, as between
the people; but it would be impossible to the people of any two distinct kingdoms;
get rid of the poor altogether, unless they and it was for the House to trace the
could have a constant progressive pros- causes of the difference. In twenty coun-
perity without any check, and keeping ties of the north the poor were well off,
pace with the increase of the population. with plenty of work and good pay for their
The right hon. Gentleman's Resolutions labour, and the parish rates were lower
were a sort of reasoning pamphlet, and he than in the South; whilst in the South
could not expect any committee to agree there was an immense body of the poor
to his Resolutions: they would cause an depressed and degraded, as compared
endless discussion. He would recommend with their brethren of the north, The,


43 State of the Poor.


JCOMMONSJ


State of the Poor. 44






45 State of the Poor.


poor rates in the county of Sussex were as
high as 7s. in the pound, whilst in the
north they did not exceed Is. 6d. In
the north the poor-laws had been kept to
their original intention, whilst in Sussex
they had been wrested completely from
their purpose. In the north only one
person in forty applied for relief out of
the rates, whilst in Sussex the proportion
was as one to three. In 1793, the price of
food to the poor man was proportionate to
his wages, but now things were regulated
by a new principle. In the interim, the
prices of wages and food had oscillated ;
wheat in one year had varied from 60s. to
150s. the quarter. It had been utterly
impossible in those years for the labouring
man to support himself, and in the north
the temporary expedient of subscriptions
had been resorted to ; whilst in the south
the expedient had been adopted of paying
the wages of labour partially out of the
poor-rates; and of all schemes ever in-
vented, never had there been one more
detrimental. A scale of these drafts from
the poor-rates had been fixed according to
the prices of bread. This had commenced
in Sussex. Was not Government bound
to consider the effects of this system ? A
few years ago the proportion of paupers in
this kingdom had been as one in twelve;
soon after as one in nine ; soon after as
one in seven; and now he believed it to
be as one in six. He could refer to docu-
ments to prove that throughout this king-
dom one person in six received aid from
the parish. The period which had pro-
duced this was that of the oscillations; but
now that the cause had passed away, why
not revert to the old practice ? In the
northern counties the poor labourer re-
ceived twelve shillings a-week, whilst in
the south he received five or six; and
yet it was infinitely cheaper to pay a man
good wages, and stimulate him to use all
his energies and exertions; for when the
peasantry were degraded they were lost to
the country and to themselves. It was
both the policy and duty of the landlord
to elevate the humbler classes. The
Report of the Committee of 1815 had
stated in the most plain manner what had
been the cause of the abuse of the poor-
laws in the South of England. Five
different committees had agreed in the
same opinions, and they had recommended
the same remedies; namely, to go back
gradually and cautiously to the system of
the poor-laws which had existed before


the abuses had been introduced. They
had the experience of various parishes,
which had returned to those laws with the
happiest effect. The success had been
uniform, and where wages had increased
pauperism had diminished. It was in
consequence of the abuses of the poor-
laws that the redundancy of the popula-
tion existed in the South of England; but
all remedies were useless that did not tend
to restore the proportion between employ-
ment and capital. All that was necessary,
however, was to take away the existing
stimulants to population, and to leave the
natural laws which regulated population to
their own operation. The poor would be
then more industrious and cautious, and
take better care of themselves. The right
hon.Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) was not
insensible to the sufferings of the multi-
tude; and he saw the necessity of assist-
ing the classes that were distressed and
degraded. It was evident, indeed, that
unless something were do.e, the country
would go on from worse to worse. Turn
which way they would, from the House in
which they then were-go into whatever
county or place they would round the
metropolis, it would be found that one
person in every five or six was a pau-
per. The noble palaces--the splendid
mansions that surrounded them-stood
upon an insecure foundation and a totter-
ing base as long as the labourers were
miserable. He believed there was only
one feeling in that House upon the sub-
ject, and that was, to improve, by every
possible means, the condition of the poor.
That was now fortunately acknowledged
to be the only way to spread happiness,
and to diminish that frightful catalogue of
crimes which had increased of late years,
and which was the necessary consequence
of the destitute and degraded condition of
the lower orders.
Mr. E. Davenport denied that there was
an overpopulation in the country; and he
thought it would require great abilities to
show that a country, capable of producing
subsistence for all its inhabitants, and
even capable of producing double what it
now produced (were agriculture but im-
proved), could be overpeopled by its pre-
sent population. The chain which had
connected capital and labour had been
dissolved; but no person had a right to
arraign the wisdom of Providence, until
he had found out that he could entirely
exculpate the folly of man. Providence


State of the Poor. 46


{MARCH 9}







might have made man with less of folly, gentleman had his estates burthened to
which would have dissolved the argument. provide for the poor of Ireland. In Berk-
He would only say a word as to the pro- shire, the mere passing of the Irish poor
posed remedy by exporting part of the in a single year had cost from 1,2001. to
population. When thenumbers had been 1,4001. The question was, could any
thus thinned in Ireland, for instance, what effectual remedy be found for this great
security was there that the vacuum would evil ? He was sorry his right hon. friend
not be soon supplied ? and certainly there had involved himself in such a complica-
was no country of the world that had a tion of Resolutions, containing many
better reputation than Ireland for multi- positions upon which no two men perhaps
plying the species with rapidity. could be found to agree: the more his
Sir F. Burdett said, if the right hon. right hon. friend had advanced into his
Mover had not yet made much way in his subject, the more comprehensive his views
project, he had at least succeeded to the seemed to be; and it would have been far
extent of persuading the House that the better if he had limited himself to his
subjc.:t was worth consideration. Never- original general and simple proposition-
theless, he could not yet encourage him that it was expedient to send part of the
with the expectation of a beneficial or redundant population to the colonies. As
speedy result. He wished, on that occa- the Motion now stood, it could lead to no
sion, particularly to avoid inquiring how beneficial practical result-whereas, if his
far the alterations in the currency might right hon. friend had brought in a bill to
have occasioned the redundant population; carry his intentions into effect, a substan-
and he should, therefore, only say, gene- tivepropositionwouldhavebeenmadeupon
rally, that on this point he was inclined to which the legislaturewould have been called
agree with his right hon. friend. As to upon to decide. At present the estates of
filling the vacuum to be occasioned by Irish gentlemen were hot-beds ofpopula-
emigration, it seemed to him that nothing tion, and this was an evil that loudly called
was more easy than to prevent a rapid for remedy. In order that England might
increase, when once the numbers were continue the sphere of laudable enterprise,
thinned. In the same way, it was easy at he wished to get rid of those who were
any time to stimulate population, but not merely burthensome; they might be re-
so easy to revocare gradum, and to lessen moved with advantage to all parties to
it after it had been so stimulated. There some of our magnificent colonies, the
was the difficulty; and hence arose the chief difficulty being to determine, of the
question, what was to be done with the good,which were the best. The exportation
present superabundant population ? The of a comparatively small number would
existence of that superabundance must, have a great effect upon those who were
for a time, produce great suffering and left behind; as a small overplus of any
misery; and whether it were or were not commodity depreciated it greatly, so a
the fault of the legislature, there the small overplus of population caused an
people were, and the country was bound accumulation of misery. The subject of
to provide for them, and could not allow relief could be no topic of dispute-all
them to starve. The great feature of the were anxious to accomplish one end;
subject was Ireland-get rid of what he amicable discussion might lead to the
might. call the annual Irish invasion-of most beneficial results, and Ministers
the competition of the Irish peasantry would, he was sure, be grateful for any
with the labourers of England-and the useful suggestions. He would confine
latter would be left in comparatively easy the view of the House simply to the point,
and comfortable circumstances. The Irish whether it were not possible to remove to
were an honest and an industrious people, the colonies a large portion of the popula-
and they had a full right to bring their tion of Ireland, and of Ireland alone? In
labour to the best market. While the that country there were no poor-rates; and
Irish peasant could obtain more for his as the present management of Irish
labour here than in his own country, he estates produced the evil, a rate, not in
must and would come; and the necessary the nature of a poor-rate, might perhaps
consequence was, that the English pea- be levied upon them, to aid in the accom-
satt was:reduced very nearly to the same plishment of the object. He could not
condition as the Irish peasant. Thus in agree with his hon. friend (Mr, J. Smith),;
WiUll, and in fact, the English country that to give every poor man aa acre- of


4Y~ SMMrteof-the Pdor.


ICOMMONSI


State of' the Poor..






State of the Poor. 5Q


ground would remedy the evil. First,how
would it be possible to give every poor
man an acre of ground? and secondly, if
it were given,was not that the very system
that had prevailed in Ireland, and which
had occasioned the redundant population ?
What had happened in Ireland would then
happen in England ; and the mischief, in-
stead of being amended, wouldbeincreased.
There were two ways by which the lower
orders might be benefitted. 1st. By giv-
ing them higher wages; 2nd. by reducing
their numbers-though the second was, in
fact, only another mode of accomplishing
the first. Then as to the introduction of
machinery, it was undoubtedly true, that it
might, for a time, throw hands out of
employ, but in the end the increase of the
branch of trade in which machinery was
used would require the active exertions of
many more men than had in the outset
been temporarily injured. When he
talked of a rate for Ireland, he was ready
to admit that the subject deserved grave
consideration: colonization must be at-
tended with a heavy expense; but the
present state of the poor also caused an
enormous expense, and the expense of
emigration would not be great if those
parishes that were relieved contributed
their due share towards the attainment of
relief. From the effect of those contribu-
tions the parties would soon recover when
once the superabundant population was
removed. He hoped that his right hon.
friend would not press his Motion to a
division, because it would lead to no bene-
ficial practical result.
Sir G. Murray said, he should only
offer a few observations, in consequence
chiefly of what had fallen from the hon.
Baronet, to whom he had listened now, as
always, with great satisfaction. He con-
curred entirely with what his right hon.
friend (Mr. W. Horton) had said on the
subject of emigration to the colonies : that
opinion was not new to him, for he had
entertained it when he was in the Canadas,
and he had stated it in a paper he then
drew up, on a means of forming a better
defence for those provinces. He thought
now, as he had thought then, that the only
certain and permanent means of providing
for the defence of the Canadas was by di-
recting to them a stream of population
from the mother country, attached to her
interests, and resolved to maintain her
possessions. The difficulty of holding out
much encouragement on the subject of


emigration arose from the strong prevail-
ing disposition in favour of it. If much
encouragement were given, that disposition
would be increased to a dangerous, or at
least to an injurious extent. With a
view practically to promote this benefit, he
had turned his mind with great attention
to the question, and the mode in which
he thought the object might be obtained
was this:-First, by establishing in the
colonies themselves a well-considered
system, with reference to the grant of land,
and then by degrees, when that system was
brought to maturity, to establish in some
of our ports, agents to whom persons
desirous of sending out emigrants might
address themselves, in order to facilitate or
provide passages, and to make those ar-
rangements in detail which landed pro-
prietors, societies, or parishes, would find
it difficult to make themselves. But in
considering this plan, it had always ap-
peared to him impracticable for the coun-
try to go to any great expense in order to
convey emigrants, to our North American
Colonies, for instance. Therefore, in
order to give a commencement to the
plan, when applied to, he had held out
that, on the arrival of theemigrants in the
provinces, they would receive land free
from any expense but the usual fees on
making the grant. The outline ofthe plan
was this :-That those who came out with
money ready to make purchases of land,
should be provided with it; thatthosewho
on coming out required no assistance, but,
at the same time, were not able to pay for
the land, should have it on discharging the
ordinary fees for the survey, &c.; a third
class were those who came out and re-
quired aid; besides having their land free
of any expense, it was doubtful whether it
might not be fit to give them assistance in
the first instance in the erection of log-
houses. Whatever was done, caution was
necessary, or such a tide of population
might be poured into the provinces as
would overflow the country, and be at-
tended with great inconvenience. He
stated these views to show that he had not
neglected the important subject, and he
would only add one word as to the inva-
sion from Ireland of which the hon. Ba-
ronet had spoken: that was, that in his
opinion, the most certain, and he might
say, the most legitimate mode, of getting
rid of that evil was, by promoting the
prosperity of Ireland. He would conclude
by merely adverting to what he had alreadT


{MARCH 9}


40 State of( the Poor.








done to carry into effect a plan of emigra- time, the surplus population could be pro-
tion. The Duke of Hamilton had applied vided for by emigration.
to him on behalf of some persons who Colonel O'Grady denied that in Ireland
wished to emigrate from his estates : land there was a redundant population, if the
had been given them for the mere expense waste land were brought into a proper
of the survey-the settlers were sent out, state of tillage ; and he maintained that
and they had been provided for to their England had no right to complain of what
entire satisfaction. A similar application was termed the Irish invasion, because the
had been made by the hon. Member for absentee nobility and gentry spent in this
Ludgershall with reference to emigration country much more than the Irish pea-
from Ireland, who was informed that he santry took away.
(Sir G. Murray) was ready to act on the Lord Althorp thought a Committee of
same principles that had guided him with the whole House-not for the purpose of
respect to the settlers from the estates of examining witnesses, for that would be ab-
the Duke of Hamilton. surd, but for the purposes of discussion-
Mr. Baring had always been of opinion, might be attended with very beneficial ef-
from the time he was a member of the fects. He thought also that no new mea-
Committee, that relief might be given by sure ought to be introduced affecting the
emigration, and it was the interest of state of the people, or applying to the ad-
parishes in the southern parts of the king- ministration of the poor-laws which
dom, which were suffering so severely from would not have the effect of making those
the pressure of the poor-rates, to contri- who contracted imprudent marriages, at an
bute to this desirable end. With respect early period of life, find themselves in a
to the fact of the redundancy of our popu- worse situation than if they had exercised
lation, he wondered how any Gentleman a greater degree of foresight and discretion.
could entertain a doubt upon it. Expe- Mr. A. Baring explained, that he was
rience had proved that the theory of Mr. quite averse from returning to the old
Malthus was correct. Those who in this system.
country were in a state of abject pauperism, Mr. Slaney observed, that the great prin-
in the colonies would be in a condition of ciple of the old system was to find employ-
comparative comfort. Only two remedies ment for the able-bodied labourer.
worth consideration had been suggested: Mr. Hume said, that he disapproved of
-the one was Emigration, and the other charging emigrants any thing for land.
was an alteration of the Poor-laws, revert- The county ought rather to be at some ex-
ing to what had been properly called a pense to remove the paupers, than to throw
sound interpretation of that system of en- impediments in the way, by seizing on the
actments. An union of these remedies land, and not allowing it to be occupied
might perhaps be effected. Let relief be unless its fees and exactions were paid.
refusedtothe able-bodied,buttheremustbe Sir George Murray said, he had
at the same time the means of conveying given directions to diminish the fees as
them to the colonies. This arrangement much as possible. It was his wish to di-
would remove all the dangers apprehended minish the impediments to emigration.
from a transition from the present system Mr. W. Horton rose to reply. He said
of parish relief to that of refusing relief to it was the duty of the House to assert dis-
the able-bodied. If the poor-rates were tinctly whether or not it were prepared to
applied only to relieve the aged and infirm, relieve the country from the effects of that
and an opportunity were afforded to the redundant population now pressing upon
young and able-bodied to proceed to the its resources. It was indisputable that
colonies, much might be accomplished the population of Ireland, as compared
for the benefit of this kingdom. He with the demand for labour, was prodigi-
thought, therefore, that the members of ously redundant, and he saw no means of
the legislature ought to make up their relief from that redundancy that could be
minds whether they would or would not try at all considered effectual except those
the experiment of revising the poor-laws, which he had recommended, and which
instead of having every year a debate upon he should feel it his duty to continue to
the subject, which debate always ended in recommend, notwithstanding the apathy
nothing. He, for one, was ready to make with which they appeared to be received.
tha eperiment but he should make it It was in vain to talk of the Colonial Se.
with greater confidence if, at the same cretary affording facilities for emigration-*i


51 State of the Poor.


{COMMONS}


State of the Poor. 52






{MARnC 9} Administration of the Law. 54


he had not sufficient funds at his disposal.
He was recommended to bring in bills,
which he could very easily do, but they
would prove of little use, unless money
were provided to carry their provisions into
effect. Bills without money were but so
much waste paper. The House might
rest assured that 1,000,0001. applied to
the purposes of emigration would do more
good than any reduction of taxation which
could possibly be effected. He knew the
House received with distaste much of what
he thought it his duty to say upon that
subject; but he should persevere-more
for the effect that might be produced out
of doors, than for any thing he hoped to
effect within the walls of that House. He
hoped that the influence from without
would urge forward some energetic means
for ridding the country of the incubus of
population by which it was oppressed-
means for spreading English feelings and
English institutions over the fertile plains
of the new world. He should feel great
pleasure in consenting to withdraw his pre-
sent motion for a committee, but he was
determined soon again to bring the subject
under the consideration of the House, either,
by moving a resolution, or by introducing
a bill, when he should take the sense of
the House upon a distinct question,whether
or not it would look at the difficulties of
the country with a view to provide an
adequate remedy for the existing evil.-
Motion withdrawn.

WELSH JUDICATIURE.-ADMINISTRA-
TION OF THE LAW.] The Attorney
General, after adverting to the lateness of
the hour, said, he.intended as shortly as
possible to call the attention of the House
to a Motion of his which stood on the
paper, the object of which was, to intro-
duce a Bill for the better Administration
of Justice in Wales, and which must be
accompanied by some further measure,
such as that House might deem necessary,
in respect of the procedure of the English
Courts of Common Law. He also in-
tended to propose some additional regula-
tions in the English Courts, which would
certainly not be required by anything ne-
cessary to the Welsh Judicature; but
which, he conceived, would in itself be
found highly expedient and advantageous.
Alterations of that nature had been alluded
to in the Speech from the Throne; and
the present, he had to inform the House,
was one of the measures in contem-


plation of the advisers of the Crown,
at the time that Speech was pronounced;
and it was submitted to the House
with the view of carrying his Majesty's
gracious recommendation into effect in
that matter. The proposition which he
had to submit to the House naturally
divided itself into parts-the first, such
enactments as might be necessary for
assimilating the administration of justice
under the Court of Great Session of
Chester, and in the principality of Wales,
to the administration of justice in Eng-
land; and, secondly, such alteration in
the regulations of the English Courts as
might be necessary for that purpose-
arising out of these, there would be some
incidental alterations necessary for effect-
ing the due dispatch of business, and for
rendering the practice of the courts uni-
form and regular. The administration of
justice throughout England and Wales
was confided to twenty judges-twelve in
England, eight in Wales-of course he
meant the administration of the Common
Law. The first step would be, to reduce
that number to fifteen ; thereby removing
five from our judicial establishment. Not
only would these appointments be an ulti-
mate saving to the country, but the offices
attached to several of the courts would
also be removed. He mentioned this in
justice to Government, which, in consent-
ing to forego so large a share of patronage
as this would involve, most clearly evinced
that its only object in the proposed alter-
ations was the benefit of the community.
With respect to the number of judges, it
was well known that, at different periods,
it varied considerably. Atone time itwas
eighteen, at others fifteen, sixteen, and
seventeen, but, for the last 100, or, he
might say, 130 years, the number had
been limited to twelve for England; and
it was remarkable that this comparatively
small number had despatched a greater
share of public business than was per-
formed by the judges of any other country
in the world. The way in which he should
propose the addition to the present num-
ber in England would be to add one to
each of the Common Law courts. One of
the five of which each court would then
consist would have to sit at chambers,
take bail, and do the other business out of
court, which one of the judges in each
court nowusually performed in Term. It
would be a matter of regulation amongst
the judges themselves, which of theiv


53 Welsh Judicature--






{COMMONS} Administration'of fiw Law. 56


*h.lrd aittriid lto the chamber business in
tbd Term; but it was the intention of the
bill that only three puisne judges should
sit at one time with the chief judge in
each court, the number of four having
been found, from long experience, to be
that which was most convenient, and to
which, as having been long accustomed to
it, the public looked with the greatest
satisfaction. It was also intended that
while the four judges sat in Banco, the
other judge should sit at Nisi Prius, which
would have the good effect of facilitating
the despatch of business, and also prevent
the necessity of the chief judge of the re-
spective courts, who usually took the nisi
prius cases, leaving the court on certain
days in Term, thereby often occasioning
much delay to the business of Term. In
this way alone there would be a saving of
two days in each Term. The Bill would
also propose an alteration with respect to
the length of the Terms. At present some
inconvenience was felt from the periods at
which they commenced. Michaelmas
Term began on the 6th of November, and
ended on the 29th; Hilary began on the
23rd of January, and ended on the 12th
of February; Easter began this year on
the 28th of April, and ended on the 24th
of May; and Trinity, on the 11th of June,
and ended the 30th. The time for hold-
ing Easter Term was, of course, variable,
as it began on the Wednesday fortnight
after Easter day. When he was first ac-
quainted with the practice of Westminster
Hall, a much longer time was allowed for
vacation, and that before the Michaelmas
Term was much longer than at present;
but for the last ten years the attention
which barristers were obligedto give, owing
to the increased number of days during
which the courts sat, left too little time
for relaxation, and for that which was even
more important to the profession than re-
laxation, he meant the time necessary for
study. In stating this, he of course meant
to cast no imputation on the noble and
learned Judge who presided in the Court
to which he more particularly alluded.
No man could feel a greater respect for
that noble Lord than he did, and no man
was more impressed with the constant and
unremitting attention which he gave to
business, even to the risk of his own
'health; yet with the great attention which
'Be bestowed, the business of the court had
'got into arrear, and that arrear was on the
Increase. The two measures which had


been introduced by the noble and learned
Lord for facilitating the despatch of busi-
ness in the courts had not succeeded.
The first measure was soon after repealed,
and the second,-that for enabling three
of the judges to sit in Banco out of the
Term to discharge the arrear of Term busi-
ness, was also unsuccessful. Indeed, it
could not be otherwise ; for it was a court
without a bar and without an audience,
and was not looked to by the public with
that feeling of satisfaction which was so
necessary to bring to it the business which
was taken to the court in Term. The
changes which he should propose would
be-first, that Michaelmas Term should
begin on the 2nd of November, and end
on the 24th. This would give time for
the discharge of nisi prius business for
one month up to Christmas. There would
then be a short vacation until the com-
mencement of Hilary Term, which would
begin on the 8th of January, and end on
the 28th. By this arrangement two days
which, by Act of Parliament, were dies non
in our law courts, would be excluded, and
so much saved for the business of the
,Term. He would limit the sitting after
Hilary Term to one month, as about that
time the circuits would begin. Generally
speaking, the circuits were at an end the
first week in April: he would therefore
fix Easter Term for the 15th of that month,
and, after sitting for twenty-four days,
there would be a longer time allowed, as
an interval between Easter and Trinity,
than at present. Of this Term he would
allow only one week for the sitting of the
court. He also proposed that the court
should sit only for a month after Trinity,
which would leave about two months from
the circuits to the Michaelmas Term.
There were other points in the Bill to
which he would not then advert, which
would give greater facilities to the judges
for transacting business in chambers, and
also for trying causes, by which greater
expedition would be ensured. It would
be a most important thing to advance a
step towards some equalization of the
business of the different courts. It was
not his intention to propose any alteration
in the forms of business in the court-
any change which it might be necessary
to make in this way would be the subject
of separate legislative enactment; but one
point which his Bill embraced he did not
wish.to pass over. This point was, that
there should be no arrest on mesn process


5 Welsh JudEicature-








for any sum under 1001., unless upon the evening, and he could assure him, that
special affidavit made before a judge, it was his desire to meet the wishes of the
stating peculiar circumstances on which people of Wales in this respect, as far as
the judge should have a discretionary he could consistently with the principle of
power. This would in itself greatly di- the alteration. It was hardly necessary
minish the number of arrests. His reason for him to say that the granting of com-
for fixing the sum at 1001. was, that no missions of Oyer andTerminer and Gaol
man would be likely to leave the country Delivery was the prerogative of the Crown,
to get rid of the obligation to pay such a and that the Crown could grant such com-
sum, and yet it was necessary to fix a missions to be held at any time or place,
limit somewhere. It was well known that and could extend their jurisdiction over
peculiar species of personal property,- such places as it might deem proper.
such as property in the funds-was not This matter, therefore, of the extent of
liable to be taken in execution, and per- circuits was a matter which he thought
sons in debt with such property might go would be much better left for decision by
off to another country and live there, re- his Majesty by the advice of his Privy
ceiving the dividends, secure from their Council, than be brought for discussion
creditors. He had fixed the sum at the in that House; and the more particularly
amount stated, because so extending it so, as the House could act on the subject
would greatly check the number of arrests, only by legislating; and any measure
while it would not be too violent a de- they might introduce for fixing the time,
parture from the present state of the place, or extent of a circuit, must be the
law; for though many persons might subject of an Act of Parliament, which
think it desirable that the law of arrest could be altered only by another Act. In
for debt should be wholly abolished, he the Privy Council, any regulations that
did not think that the time was yet arrived might be made by the Crown, if they were
when it could be done with safety. It foundinconvenient,orrequired amendment,
would, in no very long time, be seen how could be rectified in a more summary and
this limitation of the law worked, and he speedymanner. He was aware, as had.been
had no doubt that the change would be stated by an hon. friend near him, that in
received with satisfaction by the country. the first Report of the Commissioners on
In making changes such as his Bill pro- this subject, they recommended a division
posed, much must be done at first as a of counties, in the arrangement respecting
matter of compromise; and if we could the circuits. To such an alteration he
not get all the good we wished at once, we could not consent. He would not divide
should endeavour to get as much as was any county, English orWelsh; but whether
within our immediate reach. Many might each county could have a separate assize-
think he had not gone far enough in some town was a matter which must be left for
points, but he had endeavoured to achieve consideration. It would be necessary in
as much as he could. With respect to some cases to join counties in one assize,
the Court of Great Sessions of Wales, for otherwise the business of some would
other opportunities would occur for going be so small, that it would not hold out
into the subject more in detail. He would sufficient inducement to men of eminence
now confine himself to stating, that itwas at the bar to attend them; and in fact it
intended to abolish the jurisdiction of that might be difficult to get a sufficient bar,
court, and assimilate the practice of the unless a union of more counties than one
Principality to that of England. The law was included in the same assize. But in
was the same in the two countries-the such union the convenience of each county
difference lay in the mode of administra- would be studied as much as possible in
tion. As the Court of Great Sessions the selection of the place where the assize
would be abolished, it would be necessary was to be held. The city of Chester
to send two judges on an additional cir- would be a great object in making the
cuit. On this subject, of making a change new arrangements; and it would be a
in the Welsh circuits, it was his wish to matter for consideration, whether much,of
do every thing which would make it as the judicial business of the county, of
agreeable as possible to the inhabitants of Lancaster, bordering on that city, Apd
that part of the country. He had heard which was now transacted 50 miles pff,
what had fallen from an lion. friend near might not with much greater convenimece
him on this subject in the early part of to the parties be despatched at Chester,


IMARCH 91 Admtinistration of the La~w. 08


57 ;Welsh Ju~dicature--






{COMMONS} Administration of the Law. 60


In cases of union of more counties than
one in an assize, it would be necessary
that there should be only one sheriff; but
in this there could be no practical incon-
venience, for there would be a sub-sheriff
for each county, by whom the usual busi-
ness of the office would be transacted
without interference. The plan might be
extended to Wales which was acted on in
the case of Cambridge and Huntingdon,
where one sheriff acted for both. The
Bill would also embrace regulations by
which a jury of either county might try
causes originating in the other, and this
would be found a great convenience, and
tend to the more perfect administration of
justice; for such was the difficulty of
getting a sufficient number of jurors to
act in some counties, that causes were left
for trial to a very few, who possibly might,
in some instances, be biassed by local in-
terests or feelings. It was also intended
that the gaols in the counties should be
considered in law as situate in each; and
clauses would also be found regulating
the mode in which the expense of Court-
house and other expenditure connected
with the holding of an assize, would be ap-
portioned between the counties joined,
according to circumstances. This was the
general outline of the measure which he
meant to introduce, and though it might
seem, at first glance, that it would require
voluminous enactments, it would be found
that the whole did not comprise more than
a few pages. In framing the measure, he
had endeavoured to avoid any violent
change, or making any at all except in
those points where change was expe-
dient to carry the general principle of
the measure into operation. It might,
perhaps, have accorded more with certain
popular notions, that when he proposed a
change in the system of judicial adminis-
tration, he should sweep away every thing
at once. He had, however, limited him-
self to those alterations which were neces-
sary, preserving, as much as possible, the
ancient forms. He had little hesitation
in saying, that the fifteen judges in this
country would have more arduous duties
to administer in causes of property than
all those who presided over the adminis-
tration of justice in France. It wouldn't
be uninstructive to put the House in pos-
session of the means of comparing our
institutions with those of France in refer-
ence to this important subject. The
courts he would first mention of that


country were those called the Tribunaux
de Premiere Instance, in which the num-
ber of judges varied from three to eight,
and one of them called the Juge d' In-
struction drew up, organized, as it were, the
case on which the other judges decided.
From the Tribunaux de Premidre Instance
a cause might be carried before one of the
Cours Royales, of which there were twen-
ty-six in the Departments, besides that at
Paris. Above the Cours Royales was the
Cour de Cassation, which, in fact, was a
Court of Error, appointed to review all the
proceedings, and observe that all the sub-
ordinate courts administered justice ac-
cording to the strict forms of law. This
Court had no less than forty-five judges,
called Conseillers ; one chief-president,
and three-vice presidents, making in all
forty-nine judges, besides a Procureur
General, six Avocats Generaux, a Grefier,
and four clerks, all of whom were ap-
pointed, and paid by the Government.
The Cour Royale of Paris consisted of
fifty-four judges, one chief president, and
five vice-presidents, making in all sixty
judges. In this Court also, there were
attached Procureurs, Avocats, Greffers,
and other officers as well as to the Court
of Cassation. Each of the Cours Royales,
of which, as he had said, there were twen-
ty-six in the provinces, had from twenty to
forty judges; and taking the average at
thirty, including that of Paris, the number
of judges would be no less than eight
hundred and ten; making, with those of
the Court of Cassation, no less a number
than eight hundred and fifty-nine judges
paid by the Government. There were,
moreover, the Juges de Paix, one of whom
was placed in every commune. These,
too, were exclusive of the Tribunaux de
Premiere Instance. There were also two
hundred and thirteen Tribunaux de Com-
merce, the judges of which were paid by
the nation, the secretaries or registrars
being the only officers paid by the Govern-
ment. The hon. and learned Gentleman
next enumerated the items of expenses
attendant on each court, and calculated
the aggregate at 11,265,465 francs, or
582,5361. English, whereas, the expense
of administering justice in England was
only 150,0001. in the sum total. He did
not mean to cast any reflection on the
French system, but he thought it would
be found,on examination, that the number
of causes, and the amount of property, de-
cided by the English judges, Were fully


59, -Welssh Jucdicature--






{MARCH 9} Administration of the Law. 62


equal to those decided by the French
judges. It might, however, be supposed
that the expense being so burthensome to
Government, the French suitors would on
that account pay less; but this was far
from being the case. The charge of a
single cause in France, as he was informed
by M.LeRoi, an eminent French advocate,
if it went through all its stages, would be,
he need not enumerate the items,-1401.,
which he would undertake to say, would
cover the expenses of ten causes of a
similar description in London and Middle-
sex. One or two causes here might cost
2001. or 3001., but the average of costs
for each cause was not 1401. The cost
of French law proceedings would appear
still greater if the parties there had to pay
fees to the officers of the court, as they
had in England; but in France they were
paid out of the general taxes. He would
further add, that the expense of a suit in
the Tribunaux de Prenmire Instance was
about 800 francs; to carry it through a
Cour Royale, it would cost 1000 francs
more; and if it went into the Cour de
Cassation the additional expense would
be 1700 francs, making in all 1401.,which,
considering the difference in the value of
money in the two countries, was, he con-
sidered, a very large sum. From these
facts he inferred, that the law costs in
France at least equalled, if they were not
much greater than, those occasioned by
the administration of justice in England.
The proceedings, moreover, were more
prolix, and perhaps he might add, more
unsatisfactory than our own, in conse-
quence of law questions being mixed up
with the facts of the case, as they always
were in French courts of justice. It was
a great advantage, in his opinion,resulting
from the trial by jury in this country, that
it determined the merits of a case by
coming to a decision on the facts separate
and distinctly from the law which might
arise out of them. He would take that
opportunity of saying, in vindication of
that part of the English system which had
been sometimes censured, because its
working was not understood, that there
never was happier expedient to facilitate
the administration of justice, than that of
trial by jury. The separation made by
that institution, in all cases, of the facts
from the law, give to the iules of our law
a greater certainty than was to be found
in those of any other country. He was
happy to have that opportunity of say-


ing so much of what he conceived an
excellent institution, because some per-
sons turned it into ridicule. They were
to be excused on account of their igno-
rance of the vast benefits it contained.
With respect to the present system of
administering justice in Wales, he would
set aside his individual opinion for a mo-
ment, and adduce that of very unsuspicious
witnesses. That evidence was to be found
in the report of the Chamber of Commerce
in Bristol, and the parties concerned had
never thought of anticipating that their
sentiments, so expressed, would have ever
been brought forward on an occasion like
the present. The report alluded to repre-
sented that those who might be creditors
for debts contracted in Wales to the amount
of 501. were obliged to have recourse to
Welsh courts alone for enforcing their
claims, but that the uncertainty, the risk,
and the difficulties attendant on such a
mode of procedure, owing to the inefficient
operation, and defective constitution of
those courts, induced creditors very often
to relinquish their debts, as a less evil
than seeking to recover them, which caused
very great loss and inconvenience to the
trading interests of the city of Bristol.
The existing system of Welsh judicature
he conceived to be erroneous and imper-
fect. It was a principle there, that every
man was supposed to be in court, which
not being generally the case, it was neces-
sary to apply to the Courts of Equity to
stay proceedings. The judges had lately,
however, required that fifteen days' notice
of action before the assizes should be given
to all persons against whom an action
was contemplated. But, up to that time,
cases were hurried on without giving any
adequate time for preparation, and conse-
quently operated unjustly to the prejudice
of the defendant. The Report of the Com-
missioners had stated, that the expenses
of Welsh causes in every stage consider-
ably exceeded those of causes in England.
This also was a grievance which he in-
tended to remove, by his Bill, if the House
would allow him to bring it in. Thehon.
and learned Gentleman concluded by
moving for leave to bring in a Bill for
" the more effectual Administration of
Justice in England and in the Principality
of Wales."
Mr. O'Connell said, he was quite willing
to give the right hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Peel) credit for his intention to ameliorate
our law, but he disclaimed having heard a


61 Welsh Judicature--






{COMMONS} Administration of the Law. 64


single word which induced him to believe
that the present change would be in any
respect an amendment. He supposed
that the object kept in view, in every
change ought to be, to make law cheap,
expeditious, and certain; but this measure
would leave every process as tardy, un-
certain, and costly as before. Convenient
it certainly would be, both to judges and
barristers in great practice, whom it would
enable to recreate and refresh themselves;
but he was yet to learn that the benefits
resulting from this boasted reform would
extend to the public. They would have
no additional day consumed in their ser-
vice, nor would the suitors find themselves
placed in a more advantageous position
for obtaining justice or redress. The ar-
rangement would give a resting-place to
many learned gentlemen overburthened
with briefs; but it would diminish the num-
ber of days devoted to the public service.
This was, he thought wrong: he would
have no Terms at all: he would have the
courts always sitting, for as injustice never
slept, so ought justice never to slumber. A
fifth judge, too, was to be added to those
who already presided in the Exchequer;
but for what purpose ? Why, in order to
help them to do nothing. There was,
nevertheless, one part of the Bill which
he could not but approve of, that which
related to the prevention of arrests for
sums under 1001. According to the present
state of the law, if the merest wretch chose
to swear a debt of 100,0001. against any
individual, not a Member of either House
of Parliament, an arrest and imprisonment
of the party designated would be the im-
mediate consequence. Not long ago, a
woman in Dublin, who could neither read
nor write, had made oath to a debt amount-
ing to 60,0001., which she alleged to be
due to her from a respectable gentleman,
and her affidavit was acted on forthwith.
Special pleading also was a subject which
he wished to see reformed in all its parts,
as it only increased the expense of coming
at the truth, and prevented the parties
from coming into the presence of the judge
until their resources were previously ex-
hausted. They then often settled matters
by arbitration, which they might have
done in the outset but for this precious
system of special pleading. They ought
likewise to give every county its local
court, and facilitate the administration of
justice at every man's door. The Secretary
for the Home Department had expressed


himself favourable to the introduction of
such courts, with authority to decide cases
of small debt; but why, when the prin-
ciple was acknowledged, should they not
be extended to large debts as well? This
advantage Wales had enjoyed hitherto;
but it was about to be deprived of it by
the Bill in contemplation. They would
henceforward be constrained to make ap-
plication in London before any step what-
ever could be taken. An American captain
might owe a debt to an inhabitant, and
before the writ could arrive from the me-
tropolis would most probably pay his debt
(according to the sea phrase) by the fore-
topsail. They must now travel forjustice,
whether it be in a law case or an equity
case, for it was no longer to be extended
to them as heretofore at home. By the
time about 400 Welsh cases tacked to
the tail of the list in Chancery were dis-
posed of, he supposed successive genera-
tions of those interested would have passed
into the grave. The local tribunals were
also to be annihilated. The hon. and
learned Gentleman, in adverting to France,
might have recollected that justice was
there to be had at every man's door; and
in this respect the French enjoyed a su-
periority over ourselves, since they travelled
for justice for the first time when they
themselves made an appeal to the Cour
Royale. What consolation was it to us
if they were charged exorbitantly for jus-
tice ? Did their misfortunes alleviate our
own? But the hon. and learned Gentle-
man had forgotten that the expense he
had described was for thirty-two millions of
people, while the expense here was in-
curred for twelve. The hon. and learned
Gentleman had also omitted all mention
of fees when he stated the expense of our
courts. He had not enumerated all the
expenses attendant on the constitution of
our courts when he mentioned 150,0001.
as the sum total, which he could very
easily make appear, if the late hour would
permit. In brief, he would for his own
part consent to cashier half our army, and
get rid of half our colonies, if by so doing
we could accelerate and cheapen the
administration of justice.
Sir J. Owenprotested againstthemeasure
from a conviction that, by the abolition of
local judicature, the costs of law would be
more than doubled to the inhabitants of
Wales. He was confident that Govern-
ment would not so far disregard the feel-
ings of the people as to suffer this Bill w9


63 Welsh Judicature--






{MARCH 9} Administration of the Law. 66


go into a committee before the Easter
holidays.
Mr. Wilbrahamn had no doubt but it
would prove highly advantageous to that
part of the country to which he personally
belonged. He wished to thank the hon.
and learned Member for the bill.
Mr. C. W. Wynn was of opinion, that
the annihilation of the local judicature
would confer an important benefit on the
Principality ; and he was led to form this
conclusion after an attentive consideration
of the subject, confirmed by his own indi-
vidual experience of the practice in these
courts themselves. There was, to a certain
degree, disadvantage in every change, but
here the good counterbalanced the evil.
He hoped, however, that the Bill would not
be allowed to go into a committee before
the assizes, in order to give time for ex-
amination of its merits.
The Solicitor General, in reply to the
hon. and learned Member for Clare, stated
that it was a part of the measure in ques-
tion, so to apportion the business as to
provide that the Court of Exchequer
should for the future do a fair and reason-
able share of the work of the country. It
sounded well to propose that they should
bring justice to every man's door, but in
practical operation it might not be so con-
venient. The local magistracy would be-
come mixed up with the interests of fami-
lies, and it was hardly possible to avoid
partiality when the same gentlemen were
sent again and again to administer justice
amidst the same local associations.
Mr. O'Connell explained, that he had
not desired that local tribunals should be
composed of persons selected from their
respective neighborhoods.
Mr. Jones defended the character of the
Welsh judges, and observed, that several
of the most distinguished ornaments of
the judicial bench had previously filled the
office of Welsh judge. Whether England
would be content with having three addi-
tional judges when those at present exist-
ing were not all employed, he did not pre-
tend to say, but it was certainly hard that
the interests of Wales should he made the
ladder by which ambitious barristers were
to climb to such preferment as three addi-
tional seats on the bench must necessarily
induce. It was admitted on all hands
that the Welsh were attached to their
present institutions; and he could not
bring forward a better proof of their
feelings, than the fact that the inhabitants
VOL. XXIII.


of Denbigh sent in a petition against this
Bill, although the potent family of the
Wynns had mustered all their influence
at the meeting in that town, for the pur-
pose of opposing its being carried. As to
the comparison of expense, made by the
hon. and learned Gentleman, between
France and England, that was nothing to
the purpose; for if the French chose to
have expensive law, was that to justify us
in submitting to great inconvenience?
But even in making that comparison the
hon and learned Member had not been ac-
curate. He had omitted Scotland and
Ireland, and the local jurisdictions of
many stipendiary magistrates. The Bill was
a benefit forced on the people of Wales
against their inclinations. All the petitions
on the subject, except one,'were against the
measure. He could not imagine what had
made the Ministers interfere in the business,
for the whole population of the Principal-
ity, except a few rich people, to whom it
was of no consequence where they got
justice, were averse from it. The learned
Solicitor General seemed to think that a
judge in the neighbourhood was an evil,
and he would probably think a judgment
delivered at Moscow even better for the
people of Wales than one delivered in
London. The learned Gentleman seemed
to have forgot that there were such things
as juries, and deriving allkhis notions from
the courts of equity, he seemed to suppose
that every document concerning a cause
might be sent up in a box by the coach
from Wales. But for the eulogium passed
by the Attorney General on juries, he
should have been afraid that the next step
would have been to abolish them, but he
hoped the poor Welshmen would long be
allowed to preserve that part of their an-
cient institutions.
Mr. C. W. Wynn, in explanation, stated,
that the Denbigh meeting was not unani-
mous, and that the measure was opposed
by the inhabitants in consequence of their
expectation that their interests would be
injured should the assizes be occasionally
removed.
Sir Christopher Cole said, he saw no
reason why Wales should have a separate
judicial system any more than Yorkshire.
He was glad that the Ministers had taken
the matter in hand, and he hoped that
they would successfully carry it through.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusson said, he regretted
that the Bill did not provide some remedy
for the inequality of business in the dif-
D


65 WC~elsh Judicature--







{COMMONS} Administration of the Law. 68


ferent courts in England. The judges Judicature. The House had heard also a
ought to have equal labour and equal re- great deal about the repugnance of the
sponsibility; but he did not know how people of Wales to the measure, but he
that was to be obtained, unless the causes would like to ask on which of the repre-
were all placed in one list, and each court sentatives of that principality the House
should take a part of them in succession, meant to rely ? The declarations of two
The plaintiff had no right to select a tri- hon. Members at least showed that the
bunal any more than the defendant. It inhabitants were not universally opposed
was said that the Court of Common Pleas to the measure. The Welsh had no local
was an efficient court, but he found, if tribunal which would be taken from them
the whole business were equally divided by the Bill. The judges would go into
between the three courts, each one of Wales at different periods of the year, as
them would have one-half more to do at present, and when it was said that the
than the Court of Common Pleas, and Welsh were devotedly attached to their
four-fifths more than the Court of Exche- local tribunals, it should be remembered,
quer. It was not fair, therefore, to over- that at present a great number of causes
burthen, as at present, the Court of King's were sent into England to be tried in
Bench with so much more than an average order to get rid of local prejudices. It
share of business. He agreed with the ought also to be observed, when it was said
hon. Member for Clare, that it was most that the Welsh would lose their Equity
desirable to carry justice home to every Courts, that, in fact, most of the Equity
man's door, but he doubted whether it cases came already up to London to be
were possible to find a sufficient number settled. It was a curious illustration of
of judges to put such a scheme, on the the Equity Courts of Wales, that they
French plan, into execution. He should were chiefly of use to stay the irregular
think it harsh to force a measure of the proceedings of the Courts of Law. That
nature of that then before the House on was not, however, the time for discussing
any people against their inclination; but those matters in detail, and he would not
not believing, after what had been stated go further into them. He could, however,
by two hon. Members, that this was the assure those who had expressed themselves
case, he should give his assent to the so anxious for delay, that there was no de-
Motion. sign whatever on the part of Government
Mr. Secretary Peel said, that the pro- to force this measure on the people of
position of his hon. and learned friend Wales without giving them abundant
had not been fairly treated. He had pro- time to consider it in all its bearings. Such
posed to introduce a measure to alter the a disposition, he thought, had been satis-
jurisdiction of the Welsh Courts, and it factorily evinced already by his right hon.
might have been supposed, as the House friend, when he gave notice of his inten-
had previously been engaged in discussing tion so early after the commencement of
the twelve propositions of his right hon. the Session.
friend, that it would, at thatlate hour, have Mr. Rice Trevor wished only to state,
thought the discussion of one topic at a that he had presented a petition from the
time enough. The hon. Member for Clare, county he represented against the change,
however, was disappointed that the Bill and in the sentiments of that petition he
did not reform the whole practice of all our fully concurred.
courts, and he had indulged in many re- The Attorney General professed him-
marks on that subject. He had himself, as self disposed to give all the time for de-
a preliminary measure to such a reform, lay which could be conceded consistently
stated his intention to introduce a bill for with his intention to have it passed through
putting an end to patent offices, and till both Houses of Parliament before the ex-
that, and the question concerning fees piration of the Session. He wished it to be
were disposed of, the reform of the courts understood that it was no part of his plan
could not be proceeded with. Measures to touch the Palatine Courts of Durham;
were in contemplation, also, for an equal Chester, and Lancaster. As to what had
distribution of business among the courts, been said of France, he had compared, not
and he did not expect that subject would the amount of population in the two
have been brought under the notice kingdoms, but the extent of business done
of the.House, when it was only called by the judges. He had stated thaAltBe
on to discuss the question of the Welsh twelve judges of England decided as


67 Welsh Judicature--







69 Welsh Judicature.


many causes, involving as large an amount
of property, as the judges of France; and
that statement, which he would re-affirm,
had not been controverted. He had also
distinctly stated, that he meant to propose
no alteration in the form of procedure
except as to arrests for debt. He could
not agree with the hon.Member forClare in
what he had said with respect to special
pleading, as he considered the present
system unobjectionable, and no man could
become a good lawyer without attaining
a competent knowledge of it. He knew
that there was a sect in this country con-
taining many clever men, who were of a
different opinion, but whose theories he
regarded as unfounded. He knew one
celebrated individual who objected to trial
by jury, he knew that that individual
had made many proselytes, and perhaps
the hon. Member might be one of them.
He knew also, that it was very easy to
find fault where there was a disposition,
and that it was more difficult to defend
than to attack, but he would take the
liberty of saying, that ordinary talents
were sufficient for criticism, while to com-
pose a system required time and genius.
When institutions had been matured by
time, they modelled the habits of the
people to themselves, and therefore, if for
no other reason, they were generally de-
serving of support. He thought, when the
time came for a more complete discussion
of all those circumstances, that he should
be able to satisfy the hon. Member for
Clare, that he was wrong also in his wish
to carry cheap justice to every man's
door. One disadvantage of many judges
was the uncertainty of the law, the de-
cision of one tribunal in France being
often at variance with another. As to
the measure itself, he would only say that
those who were concerned in bringing
it forward had undergone the severest
labour in preparing it for the legislature
ever since the second week in November,
which, he submitted, did not manifest any
undue or inordinate desire to spare them-
selves, or to hurry it through the House.
Mr. Hume animadverted on some ob-
servations that had fallen from the Attor-
ney General, conveying, as he conceived,
a sneer of ridicule, directed against Mr.
Bentham and the doctrines advocated by
that writer and his followers. Instead of
sarcastically reviling such a man as Mr.
B*tithanm,he thought it would be well for
the Attorney General if he would cultivate


his principles, and labour to attain the
same exalted character in the estimation
of the civilized world.
The A attorney General disavowed having
made any disrespectful allusion to Mr.
Bentham or his writings, and he could
not help thinking that a very insidious ap-
plication had been made of any expres-
sions lie might have uttered. He enter-
tained a high respect for Mr. Bentham,
whom he had not the honour to know per-
sonally, although he was acquainted with
those who were on intimate terms with
that gentleman. It did not follow, how-
ever, that the respect which he felt for the
writer was to extend to an adoption of his
opinions. He did speak of a sect, but he
had cast no reflections upon its members.
Mr. Hume regretted that he had mis-
understood the hon. and learned Gentle-
man, and was happy to hear him disclaim-
ing any disrespectful intention.
Motion agreed to. Bill ordered to be
brought in.

IOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, March 10.
MsINUTms.] Lord ELLENBOROUOH'S Divorce Bill went
through aCommittee.-The Transfer of Aids Bill, and the
12,000,000 Exchequer Bills Bill, were brought up from the
Commons and read a first time.
A Report was laid on the Table concerning the National Vac-
cine Establishment, and ordered to be printed.
TAX ON LEATHER.] The Earl of Rose-
bery presented a Petition from the Tanners
of Linlithgow, praying for a repeal of the
remaining Tax upon Leather. The noble
Lord observed, that he entirely concurred
in the prayer of the Petition. The remis-

sion of the Leather-tax that had already
taken place was productive of no benefit
to the public, although it took 400,0001.
out of the Exchequer. It would be better
to reimpose the duty formerly remitted,
unless their Lordships were prepared to
remit the remainder, and get rid of the
penalties and restrictions which caused
the previous remission to be of no public
benefit.
The Earl of Malmesbury said, he could
not concur in the propriety of reimposing
the Leather-tax, though he agreed with
the noble Earl in stating, that the public
had derived no benefit from its having
been taken off. When Mr. Pitt gave up
the 3s. duty on hats, he (Lord Malmes-
bury) went to his hatter and congratulated
him upon the reduction, at the same time
expressing a hope that the price of the
D2


Tax on Leather. 70


{MARCH 10}







Tax on Leather.


article would be lowered. The answer of
the hatter was, that the trade had heard
with great satisfaction that the 3s. duty
had been taken off,-that it had been in
contemplation to raise the price of the
article; but that, in consequence of the
remission of the duty, the price would re-
main the same. Not only was the price
not lowered, but hats were actually Is.
dearer than when the duty was in exist-
ence. It must be admitted, however, that
the tax was one easily evaded. This
afforded a reason for considering the
probable effect of a remission of taxation,
before taking off a particular tax: it was
also a reason why their Lordships should
consider seriously before they imposed a
tax. As he had said already, he could
not agree with the noble Earl in the policy
of reimposing the moiety of the Leather-
tax which had been remitted, for although
the public had not been benefitted by its
remission, no doubt if it were reimposed
the price of boots and shoes would be
raised. When he spoke to his shoe-maker
on the subject, the invariable answer was,
that the advantage of the remission had
accrued to the tanner or currier,-it had
stopped in medid vid-the benefit never
reached the consumer. He made an ex-
ception in favour of the salt-tax, the re-
mission of which had been extremely bene-
ficial to the agricultural population. In
that instance the legislature had conferred
a real benefit upon the public. But if it
imposed the tax upon leather, the people
would not only have to pay so much more
for their boots and shoes, in proportion to
the amount of the tax, they would also
have to pay a per centage on account of
the reduction of consumption which taxa-
tion invariably occasioned.
The Earl of Rosebery did not recom-
mend the re-imposition of the Leather-tax ;
on the contrary, he thought it advisable to
repeal the remaining duty, which gave rise
to restrictions that prevented the public
from enjoying the benefit of the repeal that
had already taken place. The public had
derived no advantage hitherto; all the
benefit fell into the hands of a few great
capitalists.
Earl Stanhope was well aware, that the
public did not receive that relief which might
reasonably be expected from a reduction of
taxation upon the raw material. The evil
O se from our want of those municipal
regulations which existed on the Continent,
and by which corporations and magistrates


were empowered to fix the prices of the
necessaries of life. The ancient law of
this country gave such a power with re-
spect to two of the prime necessaries of
life-bread and beer. The noble Earl
opposite smiled at this; but if he looked
into the statute passed in the reign of
Henry 2nd, he would find the principle
recognized. Such regulations were at-
tended with eminent benefit to the conti-
nental consumer, whereas here we had all
the evils of exclusive corporations and
monopolies, andnone ofthebenefits which
they might be made to bestow. He quite
agreed in the statement that a remission
of taxes on the raw material was frequently
of no benefit to the consumer : it afforded
an undue profit to the capitalist or the
retail dealer,-that was all.
Petition ordered to be printed

JEWS.] The Marquis of Lansdown pre-
sented a Petition, signed by all the respect-
able inhabitants residing in the town of Li-
verpool, of the Jewish persuasion, for the
removal of the disabilities under which they
laboured. This being the first opportunity
which he had enjoyedof stating his opinion
on the subject, he should say that he knew
of no reason connected with the faith which
these individuals professed,or with their per-
sonal conduct, which ought to preclude
them from a free admission to those equal
advantages of a civil nature that had been
so wisely extended to others. This was not
an occasion on which it would be proper
to say more on the subject, and he should
only add, that he had seen with satisfaction
an intimation that a bill for the relief of
the Jews was shortly to be brought into
the other House of Parliament.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 10.
MINUTEs.] Notice was given by Mr. JEPHSON of a Bill to
amend the 9th Gen. 4th. c. 83, relating to the selection of
Juries in New SouthWAles and Van Dieman's Land:-by
Mr. FRANKLAND LEWIs, that he would, on April 17th,
move for leave to bring in a Bill to consolidate the laws
relative to the payment of the Navy.
Accounts were presented of Proclamations issued and expenses
incurred by putting into force the Peace Preservation
Acts :-of the amount of money paid by ships for Medi-
terranean Passes.
Accounts were ordered on the motion of Mr. ALDERAiAN
WAITHMAN, of the number of persons discharged by the
Court for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors from the 1st
January 1814 to December 31st 1829:-of Mr. D. W.
HAnvaY,'of the number of Informations.filedin the Court
of Chancery since 1818 having for their object to correct
abuses in public charities, and of the number of Peititons
presented to the Court:-of Mr. HUME, ofthenunber of
Writs or Processes issued by the Solicitor of the Board of
Taxesagainstpersons in arrear forAssessed TaxesinMiddle-


Jews' Relief.


f COMMONS I






{MARCH 10} Standard of the Currency. 74


sex, stating the number of executions &c.:-of Lord
PALMERSTON of freeholders registered in each county of
Ireland on January 1st 1829, and 1830:--of MR. MARTIN,
of all Salaries and Emoluments paid to persons in the office
of Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, for the payment of Irish
Tontine Annuities, with all charges on account of the
office, of all fees received at the office, and of all sums
remitted to them.

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.] Several
Petitions were presented on this subject by
Mr. Burrel, by Mr. Arkwright, and also by
Mr. Denison, who observed thatthe peti-
tion he had to present from the inhabitants
of Croydon, Surrey, was, though short, full
of serious circumstances. The petitioners
stated that they could no longer bear to
witness the distressed and even starving
condition of the destitute labourers, many
of whom were out of employment, and must
actually die of want, if they were not re-
lieved. They stated that thetaxes onbeer,
malt, and on hops, might be considered as
poll-taxes, falling the heaviest on the poor
labourers, who were obliged to consume
those articles to support their strength,
though atpresent theycould getneither this
nor any thing else. The want of those ne-
cessariesoflife was shortening the existence
of thousands of labourers. If these taxes
were remitted, beer would be reduced from
5d. to Id. per quart. He did not make
these remarks from any hostility to his
Majesty's Ministers, but he must press on
their attention the propriety of taking
these complaints into their serious consi-
deration. Hewished to enforce these com-
plaints by the strongest language which
he could with propriety use, and he should
be glad that similar petitions from every
distressed district were sent up, as he
thought by that means alone would the
Government be induced to rcniit a suffi-
ciency of taxation to give the people per-
manent relief.
Petitions read and printed.

DUTY ON SPIrITS.] Mr. W. Smith, in
presenting a Petition from a body of men
who were not numerous, butvery important,
on account of their wealth, and the sums
they paid to the revenue, he meant the
English Distillers,observed, that the prayer
of their petition was, that no alteration
might be made in the discriminating duty
now levied on rum, and on English corn-
spirit. They had been induced to present
the petition to the House by observing
that a petition had lately been presented
to it, praying for a reduction of the duty
,oqrum. When that petition was presented


he had no doubt that many of its allega-
tions were unfounded, and the petitioners
began by denying them. Already the
price of spirits was ruinously low in this
country, and he thought that any further
reduction of the duty on colonial spirits
would bring them so much within the reach
of every class, as almost to supersede the
use of our wholesome national beverage.
Indeed he regretted very much to observe
that spirits were already generally drank
instead of beer, and he could not but fear
that the change had led to a deterioration
of public morals.
Petition read and printed.

THE STANDARD OF TIE CURRENCY.]
Mr. Wodehouse asked the right hon. the
Master of the Mint, whom he saw in his
place, why a copy of the evidence of Mr.
Baring, and of the Governor and Deputy-
Governor of the Bank of England,relative
to the Silver Standard, which the Govern-
ment had some time back consented to
produce, was not laid on the Table. He
thought it essential to give the country
every possible information on this subject,
in order to see if it would afford a means
of relieving our distress.
Mr. Herries said, that as far as he was
aware, there was every disposition to lay
all the evidence obtained by the Govern-
ment before the House. The occasion on
which this evidence was given was peculiar,
and perhaps for that reason it might be
produced; but in general cases he thought
it would be inconvenient to say that com-
munications thus made to the Privy
Council were not privileged. He thought
that when the papers were produced it
would be seen that the Board of Trade
had done what was most conducive to the
end in view. On looking into the papers
he found them divided into four. The
first consisted of the evidence of Mr.
Baring; the second was a statement of
information privately communicated to
him; and the third was a memorandum of
a conversation between him and the
Governor and Deputy-Governor of the
Bank of England, which, from the very
first passage in it, was clearly of a con-
fidential nature. He thought that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would readily
agree to lay on the Table all the papers
that could properly be the means of
affording information to the House.
Mr. S. Rice thought the explanattin'of
thq right hon. Gentleman satisfactory;


73 Duety on Spirits.






75 Roman Catholics of Galway. {COMMONS}


and he wished to know whether any to be the general opinion, that after
information could be afforded as to the having passed the bill of the last Session,
quantity of silver specie exported ? for the relief of the Roman Catholics, it
Mr. Herries said, that there were not would be inconsistent with its principle to
any means of obtaining accurate informa- allow such a distinction to remain on the
tion upon that subject. Statute-book. The only question was,
how the inequality should be removed.
ROMAN CATHOLICS OF GALWAY.] One mode was by giving the franchise to
Mr. O'Hara, in presenting two Petitions, Catholics as well as Protestants, and the
one from the Justices of the Peace of the other by taking it from the Protestants;
County of Galway, and the other from the but of the latter mode he could not think
Roman Catholic Clergy of the Warden- for a moment, and it was but justice to
ship of Galway, praying that Roman the Roman Catholics of that town to
Catholics might be admitted to the privi- repeat what had been said of them by
leges of the Corporation of the Town of the hon. Member for Clare, that they
Galway, observed, that the petitioners would never accept any concession at the
stated, that formerly Catholics were ad- expense of their Protestant brethren. The
mitted to all the privileges of the Corpora- hon. Member then moved for leave to
tion. Their rights were recognized by the bring in the bill.
Charter of Charles 2nd, and by the Irish Mr. Trant did not rise to oppose the
House of Commons in 1715. The Act of Motion, but he wished to guard himself
4th Geo. 1st was intended only to give against its being supposed, should he
Protestants a more ready, and secure, and remain silent, that he approved of the
cheap mode of acquiring their freedom, measure. What steps he might afterwards
By the late Act of admitting Roman take to oppose the bill he did not then
Catholics to the civil offices of the State, know, but he looked with extreme jea-
they were certainly entitled also to enter lousy upon any measures interfering with
the Corporation of the town of Galway ; corporate rights.
but that was contrary to the words of Leave given, and Bill ordered to be
the Act of George 1st. The petitioners brought in.


therefore prayed, and he warmly concurred
in their prayer, that Parliament would
adopt some means of removing all doubt
on the subject, and of giving Roman
Catholics an equal right with Protestants
to share all the privileges of the Corpora-
tion of Galway.
Mr. S. Rice rose, pursuant to the notice
he had given, to move for leave to bring in
a bill to repeal so much of the Act of the
4th of George 1st as limits the franchise of
this corporation to Protestants only. The
hon. Member observed, that it was not his
intention to go into any argument on the
subject at present, particularly in the
absence of those hon. Gentlemen who took
a part in the discussion when he presented
the Petition. Other opportunities would
occur for going more fully into it, should
it be necessary. He would confine
himself, therefore, at present, to merely
stating the grounds on which he asked for
leave to bring it in. The Protestant mer-
chants and traders could, by the Act of
Geo. 1st. claim their freedom as a matter
of right, after a residence in the town,
but the claim was confined to them ex-
clusively. The privileges of the corpora-
lion were limited to Protestants. It seemed


AFFAIRS OF POrTUGAL.] Viscount
Palmerston rose to submit to the House
the Motion of which he had given notice,
relative to the Affairs of Portugal. His
lordship spoke to the following effect:--I
feel that I ought, in the first place, to
apologise to the House, for having fixed
upon a day which, by the general under-
standing of all sides, is usually devoted
to relaxation from Parliamentary duties;
but it has been my misfortune, and not my
fault. I have already been obliged twice
to postpone my Motion. I have failed
in an endeavour to make an arrangement
with the Government, which would have
enabled me to bring it on to-morrow ; and
I had no alternative, but either to make
my Motion to-day, or else to put it off till
April; and I did not think, that under all
circumstances, I could with propriety,
delay it so long. The Motion with which
I shall conclude, will be for further infor-
mation as to the conduct of the Govern-
ment, with regard to the affairs of Portu-
gal; and I trust I shall be able to
establish such grounds for my Motion, that
it will be impossible for the House to refuse
to accede to it. There may be many


Affairs of Portugal. 16i









occasions, on which it may be the duty of that they have neither done injustice
the Government to resist the production of themselves, nor connived at, nor encour-
papers, and when it would be inexpedient aged it in others. It is, then, a matter of
for the House to press for such production ; deep interest and high importance, that
but in those cases, the Government should we should know what have been the
stand upon its denial, and refuse informa- principles upon which our Government
tion absolutely and entirely; but when the have acted; what has been the spirit in
time has arrived, at whichthe Government which the influence of England has been
think, that information may be communi- exerted; what objects have been aimed
cated to Parliament, without detriment to at; and by what means we have sought
the public service, surely it is incumbent to attain them. A revolution has been
upon them to give such papers as shall effected, and an usurpation accomplished,
really elucidate the transactions to which almost in the presence of a British force;
they relate, and shall afford such complete solemn engagements, to which we were
explanations, as may enable Parliament to parties, have been broken; gross indignity,
arrive at a sound and correct judgment by the admission of the Ministers them-
upon the course which has been pur- selves, has been offered to our King;
sued : but to give imperfect informna- Europe has been strewed with victims
tion, mutilated extracts, and fragments of ruined by their confidence in us;-nego-
correspondence, from which the most im- tiations on all these matters have been
portant parts have been cut off, is to make undertaken, and have ended in acknow-
a mockery of Parliament, under pretence ledged nothing; England, or at least its
of submitting to its jurisdiction. That Government, is loaded with the reproaches
this has been done with respect to the of Europe: wehear
affairs of Portugal, it will not be difficult On all sides, from innumerable tongues,
to shew. For several years past, we have A dismal universal hiss, the sound
been engaged, actively and incessantly, in Of public scorn."-
interference in the affairs, internal and But upon all these affairs, so deeply
external, of Portugal; we have carried on affecting our interests, so nearly touching
important correspondence on those affairs, our honour-we have been kept in pro-
with many of the great powers of Christen- found ignorance; and the Government
dom; we have been parties to solemn have preserved a gloomy silence, broken
transactions, deeply affecting the welfare only partially, by a few oracular and mys-
and destiny of Portugal; we have lately, terious sentences in Speeches from the
even undertaken the task of attempting to Throne, and by the imperfect and un-
reconcile the conflicting rights and preten- satisfactory papers, which were extracted
sions of the Princes of the House of Bra- last Session from the pigeon-holes of the
ganza, and of settling the order of suc- Foreign Office, by the motion of my right
cession to the throne of Portugal: but in hon. friend, the Member for Knares-
all these negotiations and transactions, is borough. When I am criticising, let me
it Portugal alone that has been concerned ? however be just. The fault of this silence
Is it Portugal alone, whose interests have does not rest solely with the Government:
been involved, and whose honour has this House must also come in for its share.
been staked upon the issue ? England, It was not to be expected that the Go-
also, is seriously affected by these transac- vernment should volunteer the production
tions; in her interests far less indeed than of papers, on a subject which it was so
Portugal, because with Portugal it was a much their interest to keep, as far as
question almost of life and death, with possible, out of sight, and out of mind.
England only a balance of profit and loss; No man is bound to criminate himself,
but in honour, we played by far the deepest 1 and no man can be expected of his own
game; for it was ours to arbitrate, hers accord to stir up a discussion, which he
only to suffer: shelay prostrate andpower- has too much reason to fear, must end in
less with the dagger at her throat, and it his own condemnation. It is no wonder,
depended upon the turn of our hand, then, that this silence should have been
whether she should be sacrificed or saved; preserved, so long as Parliament acquiesced
and when the mighty intermeddle with in it; but therefore it is, that I intreat the
the destiny of the weak, and make them- iHouse to take this matter in hand, and to
selves the arbiters of fate, it behoves them require the production of that informa-
to render a clear account, and to shew tion, which it is so fitting and necessary


AJ~irs of Portugal, .78


77 Afadrs of Portugacl.


{MARCH 10)








for it to have, I know that there are school, their maneuvres and intrigues,
many persons in this House, who look whenever they may attempt them, are sure
with great indifference, if not with actual to be nipped in the bud, and to be blasted
repugnance, at discussions which turn as soon as born, by immediate and unmer-
upon our foreign relations ; who think ciful exposure. I say then that every
that they sufficiently perform their duties English gentleman, who brings to the
in this House, by devoting themselves debates of this House, an honest mind,
sedulously to our domestic concerns; who and a manly and generous spirit, will find
are willing to leave our foreign affairs to it just as easy to judge of these matters,
the unquestioned discretion ofhis Majesty's if he will only insist upon having proper
Ministers; or who, at least, believe those information, as he would of any thing else,
affairs to be matters of peculiar mystery to which he may direct his attention. I
and craft, upon which none, but the fully- therefore implore this House to rouse
initiated, are capable of arriving at sound themselves from that apathy as to our
and satisfactory opinions. Why, as well foreign affairs, which has prevailed so
might a man think, that provided he long; for they may be assured, that never
looked carefully after his estate, and upon a matter of high national concern-
managed his household with economy and ment, was the salutary control of their
order, it was unimportant to him, what interference more urgently required. The
might be his behaviour towards his neigh- case between me and his Majesty's Minis-
bours: a fair character, a good name, the ters, as to the affairs of Portugal, is
esteem and respect of others, are not less shortly this; they condemn, (as who could
valuable to a nation than they are to an not) the conduct of Don Miguel, in vio-
individual : reputation gives influence, lating his engagements to us, and
and power, and security from molestation, usurping the throne of his niece; they
to the one, as well as to the other. When say, indeed, that his bad conduct, and bad
we consider how much our purely domestic qualities have been somewhat exaggerated,
interests are concerned in our diplomatic but they admit that as regards us, he has
relations with other countries; when we broken his faith to England, and has
reflect what influence the foreign policy of personally insulted our Sovereign, and that
so great a power as England must neces- as regards Portugal, he has been treacher-
sarily have upon the transactions of the ous, and perjured, and tyrannical, and
world, and how much it must affect the cowardly, and cruel. They assert, how-
welfare and peace of nations, it is plain, ever, that we have not been so mixed up
that both those who look only to our own with these transactions, as to give us any
selfish interests, and those whose views right to interfere; that our practice and
take a higher flight, ought equally to principle have invariably been, non-inter-
watch with jealous anxiety every step of ference and neutrality ; and that any
the Government in these matters. But other course on this occasion, would not
then as to the difficulty of understanding only have been unjust, but would inevita-
these things. It may suit the purposes bly have involved us in war. 1 maintain
of some, to endeavour, like the High on the contrary, that their alleged princi-
Priests of Egypt, to keep knowledge to ple of neutrality and non-interference, has
themselves, by locking it up in mystical only been a cloak, under cover of which
and unintelligible language; but the days they have given effectual assistance to
are gone by, when diplomacy was an that party, whom they secretly favoured;
occult science; the intercourse of nations I maintain, that in all times, but more
must now be conducted upon the same especially in recent times, England has
principles as that of individuals. Plain been so mixed up with the affairs of Por-
dealing, sincerity, and a regard to justice, tugal, that to say, that it has been our
are the most successful policy in the one, practice and principle not to interfere in
as well as in the other; the communica- those affairs, is to contradict the records
tions of cabinets are now so frequent and of history; that not only have all former
unreserved, that nothing can long be kept Governments so interfered, but that this
secret in Europe, and if there are a few very Government itself has never ceased
,ltimi Romanorum, not indeed citizens of so to interfere, from the first day of its
the republic, but rather subjects of the existence, down almost to the present
empire who still linger on the stage as hour; but that its interference, whether
specumeas of an obsolete and exploded by negotiation, or by open force, has


79 AlPairs of Portug~al.


I COMMONS


.4ffairs of Portulgal. 80






81 Affairs of Portugal. {MARC
invariablyy been directed to assist and
confirm the usurpation of Don Miguel: I
maintain, that the solemn engagements
taken by Don Miguel, and to which he
chose to make the King of England a
party, gave us rights of interference with
respect to him, which we should not
otherwise have had; that a due regard to
the dignity and good faith of the nation,
and to the personal honour of its Sove-
reign, required us to enforce those rights ;
and I further maintain, that so far from
incurring any danger of war by so doing,
we might have accomplished our purpose,
without any war at all; whereas the
course which has been pursued has
brought us to a situation, in which the
Ministers themselves confess, they are not
free from apprehensions as to the con-
tinuance of peace. It has been a disputed
question, whether the Government of
England were counsellors beforehand to
the Portuguese Constitution; be this as
it may, there can be no doubt, that by
circumstances, over which that Govern-
ment had no control, the name of England
was so much mixed up with the introduc-
tion and establishment of that Constitu-
tion, that public opinion in Portugal,
linked together that Constitution and
English connexion, in such a manner,
that no official disclaimers could effectually
destroy the impression. As to the ques-
tion itself, however, my firm conviction is,
that the English Government had nothing
whatever to do with the granting of the
Portuguese Constitution. I say not this,
as a vindication from an imputation, but
as the statement of a truth. I confess,
that if the English Government had
advised the Emperor Don Pedro, to
bestow free institutions on his Portuguese
subjects, as a parting gift, upon abdicating
the throne, I think they would have done
a wise and praiseworthy act; and one,
which, so far from denying, they might
justly have been proud of; but if we will
only solve this question by chronology,
and pay the slightest attention to dates,
we shall see that it was physically impossi-
ble they could. King John died at
Lisbon on the 10th of March, 1826. The
news of his death reached Rio de Janeiro
about the 26th of April, and it appears,
from the papers before Parliament, that
within a few days afterwards, Don Pedro
had determined upon giving a Constitution
to Portugal; by which time it was im-
possible that any communication could


11 10} Affairs of Portugal. 82
have reached the Brazils, sent from Eng-
land after the death of Don John was
known in London. It will be seen,
therefore, that in point of fact, it was
absolutely impossible that the English
Government could have had any thing to
do with this grant, and that it must have
been the spontaneous act of Don Pedro
himself; an act, however, not arising
from levity or caprice, but suggested by
the use of his own experience, and by a
prudent attention to the signs of the
times. I am speaking now, not of the
details of this Constitution, which might
or might not have been better adapted to
the existing state of parties and interests
in Portugal, but of its character as a free
institution, and as contrasted with pure
and absolute monarchy. I look upon that
Constitution as having arisen out of the
events, which had happened in the world,
during the preceding twelve years. When
Bonaparte was to be dethroned, the
Sovereigns of Europe called up their
people to their aid; they invoked them in
the sacred names of Freedom and National
Independence ; the cry went forth
throughout Europe : and those, whom
Subsidies had no power to buy, and
Conscriptions no force to compel, roused
by the magic sound of Constitutional
Rights, started spontaneously into arms.
The long-suffering Nations of Europe rose
up as one man, and by an effort tremen-
dous and wide spreading, like a great
convulsion of nature, they hurled the
conqueror from his throne. But promises
made in days of distress, were forgotten
in the hour of triumph; and the events
of that period furnish an additional proof
S-How soon
Height will recall high thoughts, how soon unsay
What feigned submission swore ; how ease recant
Vows made in pain, as violent as void."
The rulers of mankind, like the Persian
fisherman, had set free a gigantic spirit
from its iron prison, but when that spirit
had done their bidding, they shrunk back
with alarm, from the vastness of that
power, which they themselves had set
into action, and modestly requested, it
would go down again into its former
dungeon. Hence, that gloomy discontent,
that restless disquiet, that murmuring
sullenness, which pervaded Europe after
the overthrow of Bonaparte; and which
were so unlike that joyful gladness, which
might have been looked for, among men,
who had just been released from the







83 Affairs of Portugal.


galling yoke of a foreign and a military
tyrant. In 1820 the long brooding fire
burst out into open flame; in Germany it
was still kept down and smothered, but in
Italy, in Spain, and in Portugal, it over-
powered every resistance. We all re-
member that succession of revolutions,
which in Portugal marked the struggle
for ascendancy between two parties, who
fought, the one for the maintenance of
abuses by which they lived, under the
protection of arbitrary power; the other
for the suppression of those abuses, and
for security under a constitutional system.
In 1820, a revolution established in Por-
tugal the Spanish Constitution of 1812;
a crude ill-digested system, unfit for any
country, but especially for one just emerg-
ing from arbitrary government; but which
the Portuguese probably laid hold of, as
the first thing that came ready to their
:land, and for want of time and capacity
to frame any thing better. In 1821 King
John returned to Portugal from the Brazils,
where he had been since 1807, driven from
thence by a revolution, which had broken
out there in the beginning of that year ;
and on his landing at Lisbon he swore
allegiance to the new constitution. In
1823 a military revolution, headed by Don
Miguel, overthrew the constitution; the
insurrection was repressed, and Don
Miguel banished, and the popular party
again began to shew themselves; and in
1824 Don John, for the purpose of ap-
peasing parties, and gaining time, publish-
ed an evasive decree, proclaiming that
the ancient constitution of Portugal, con-
sisting of three estates, was still in actual
vigour. From that time till the death of
Don John in 1826, the two parties remain-
ed in a state of balanced truce, each of
them waiting for events. In the mean
time the revolution which had broken out
in the Brazils in 1821, had led, by a suc-
cession of events, to the separation of the
two countries, to the erection of the
Brazils into an Independent Empire under
Don Pedro, and to the establishment of
the representative system of Government,
granted by him in 1823. Was it then
surprising, that, when in 1826, Don
Pedro heard of the death of his father
Don John, and found that by this event,
and by the separation of the Crowns of
Brazil and Portugal, the latter would de-
volve upon his infant daughter, Donna
Maria, he should have thought that the
best chance of saving Portugal from fur-


their convulsions, and of securing an un-
disturbed succession to his daughter, lay
in establishing in Portugal, not the wild
and democratic and impracticable constitu-
tion of 1820, but that mixed and modified
system of Representative Government,
which had produced in the Brazils so
much tranquillity and satisfaction. It
was this consideration beyond a doubt,
and not any advice from England, that
led Don Pedro to send to Lisbon, what
was nearly a transcript of the Constitu-
tion of the Brazils. But the papers now
before us prove, that although we were no
parties to the original determination, yet
those who saw only the outside of things
must have considered us, as mixed up
with its execution. The Constitution, as
is shewn by these papers, was brought
over by an Englishman; accidentally and
unforeseen, but still so it was. Its adop-
tion in Portugal was brought about by the
direct and active interference of an Eng-
lishman ; acting in his capacity of Portu-
guese Plenipotentiary I allow, but still it
was the interference, active and direct, of
an Englishman. England was asked
what Portugal should do; and the advice
of the English Cabinet, in which, never
let it be forgotten, the leading Members
of the present Government had seats, the
advice of the English Cabinet was, im-
mediate acceptance of the Charter. This
was not indeed given as peremptory advice,
but submitted as an element of decision,
but still such was the public and official
advice of the English Cabinet. I know
well that the distinction between an Eng-
lish Minister, and a Portuguese Plenipo-
tentiary is not merely technical, but sub-
stantial ; 1 know well that there is a real
difference, between giving peremptory
advice, and submitting advice as an ele-
ment of decision; but these differences
and distinctions were of a nature to escape
general observation, and were capable of
being easily explained away, by those who
had an interest to do so; and we were, there-
fore, in this respect, clearly in the situation
of persons, who are fettered by having
excited in others expectations beyond what
they themselves fully intended; and who
will bejudged,not byintentions known only
to themselves, but by the interpretation
which others may have put upon their
conduct. On this first branch of the
subject I ask for no other papers; those
which we have, though scanty in quantity,
are abundantly ample in substance; every


AAfairs of Portugal.


fCOMMONS1







85 Afairs of Portugal. {MARCH 10} Afairs of Portugal. 86
one of these eleven pages is full of traces patch from Prince Metternich, and the
of English interference in the affairs of protocols, are enough for my purpose.-
Portugal. We find an Englishman enter- This despatch and those protocols estab-
ing into, what he calls, altercation with lish beyond the possibility of question, first,
Don Pedro about the Constitution of the fact of the continued and direct inter-
Portugal; we find an Englishman actively ference of England, in the most important
engaged in persuading the Portuguese to concerns of Portugal; and secondly, the
adopt that Constitution; we find the existence of a formal compact between
British Cabinet consulted, and advising Don Miguel and the King of England,
the immediate acceptance of the Charter; every tittle of which compact Don Miguel
and we find the abdicating sovereign of has contemptuously violated. The des-
Portugal, soliciting, for the arrangements patch from Prince Metternich to Prince
which he had made for the internal affairs Esterhazy, proves that England and Aus-
of his kingdom, the approbation and sup- tria took upon themselves the tutelary task
port of the King of England. And then of arranging the affairs of Portugal;
we are gravely assured that it is contrary Austria in consequence of the relationship
to our principles and practice, ever to in- between the two royal families, England
terfere in the internal affairs of Portugal. by virtue of its ancient political connexion
The second portion of these papers gives with Portugal. This despatch sets out
an account of the transactions which took with a reference to a communication made
place at Vienna, in 1827, previous to Don to Prince Metternich, of the principles
Miguel's departure for England; and it and wishes of the English Government, as
explains the negotiations carried on there, to the then present and future position of
to induce the Infant to bind himself to the Infant; that is, as explained by the
maintain the Constitution; to forget and despatch, the wishes and principles of
forgive all offences against himself, or to England, as to the conditions on which
speak more correctly, his offences against Don Miguel was to be allowed to leave
others; and to give up his Regency to Vienna, and as to the line of conduct he
Donna Maria, in conformity with the was to pursue in administering the affairs
Charter; and it contains also copies of of Portugal, as Regent, after his arrival at
the conventions, for protocols have the Lisbon. It further recites specifically,
force of conventions, by which Don certain deliberations to which the English
Miguel bound himself to Austria and ambassador was a party, and which were
England, to perform these engagements. held for the purpose of conquering the re-
I am unwilling to ask for more papers distance of Don Miguel to the arrange-
than are absolutely necessary, and there- ments proposed to him; and also for the
fore, I rest contented with what we have purpose of concerting, without delay, such
on this branch of the subject; but I measures as might be immediately neces-
should have liked to know, whether any sary, in order to put an end to a hazardous
of the communications from the Cabinet state of uncertainty in Portugal. But
of England to that of Austria, during this still, I suppose, we shall be told, that
period, expressed a strong and earnest England has never interfered in the in-
anxiety for the maintenance of the Portu- ternal affairs of Portugal. Then come
guese Constitution; whether the Court of the protocols, and the letters attached to
Vienna was plainly told, that the only them, and what do these establish? Why
condition upon which Don Miguel could Miguel appoints plenipotentiaries to treat
expect any countenance, or aid, or friend- in his name with the ambassadors of Aus-
ship from England, was his undertaking tria and England; negotiations follow, in
to govern Portugal by means of the insti- the course of which, it appears that the
tutions of Don Pedro; and whether his consent of England was held necessary,
visit to England in his way, or rather out even to decide the apparently unimportant
of his way, to Lisbon, was the public sign question, whether certain letters which
and symbol of such an engagement on his Don Miguel was to write, should be signed
part. But this is not necessary for my case; by him with the title of Lieutenant simply,
such documents, if they exist, would shew or with that of Lieutenant and Regent
indeed the contrast between the feelings jointly. In consequence of these nego-
of the Cabinet of that day, and those of tiations, Don Miguel contracts a solemn
the Cabinet of this, as far as the latter engagement, to maintain religiously the
Can be gathered from events; but the des- institutions of Don Pedro, to bury the


it ....







87 Affairs of Portugal.


past in oblivion, and to restrain with firm-
ness the spirit of faction in Portugal; and
to this engagement, England becomes a
party. Nay, more; to these protocols are
annexed, as part and parcel of this
formal proceeding, three letters from Don
Miguel: one to Don Pedro, to whom he
vows obedience; one to the Infanta Isa-
bella, then Regent at Lisbon, through
whom he proclaims to Portugal, Amnesty,
Constitution, Impartiality; and a third to
the king of England, from whom he so-
licits good-will and support, upon the
distinct undertaking, that he will govern
Portugal by means of the institutions of
Don Pedro. Here then we find Don
Miguel entering into a convention with
the King of England, by plenipotentiaries
authorized on both sides; the purport of
which convention is, that he shall admi-
nister Portugal according to the Consti-
tution. It has been said, I know, that the
English Ambassador attended these con-
ferences, and signed these protocols only
as a witness, and not as a party; but
there is nothing in these papers, which at
all bears out this assertion. If there is
any document by which that is proved,
that document ought to have been pro-
duced. But the very reverse appears from
these papers. It is evident from them,
that Austria and England held negoti-
ations with Don Miguel, as to the line of
conduct which he was to pursue as Regent
of Portugal; and that when at last he was
brought, and with much difficulty, to ac-
cede to their wishes, and agree to certain
engagements,-those engagements were
formally recorded by the plenipoten-
tiaries of the negotiating parties, in the
shape of these conventions. I maintain
that the subsequent violation by Don
Miguel of these engagements so con-
tracted by him, gave us a right to enforce
them if we liked, by whatever means we
might think most expedient; and I con-
tend, that the publicity which was un-
avoidably given to the whole transaction,
and by which thousands of Portuguese
were led to acts, by which their fortunes
and their lives have since been placed in
jeopardy, so committed the honour of
England, as to leave us nothing to choose,
but the means by which this right should
be enforced. After this second part of
-the papers, comes an important gap.
These protocols are dated at Vienna, in
October 1827, and they are immediately
followed by an extract from a despatch


from Sir Frederick Lamb, dated at Lisbon,
on the 1st of March. Here then, we
jump at once over an interval of five
months, and transport Don Miguel from
Vienna to Lisbon, passing over unnoticed,
his intervening residence in England, and
every thing that happened while he was
here. Will it really be asserted, that his
visit to England was merely a progress of
pleasure and parade ? that we brought him
here for no other purpose than to show
him how hard it could snow at a review,
and how drenchingly it could rain at a
stag-hunt ? was there no Portuguese busi-
ness done while he was in England? were
there no protocols signed ? were there no
arrangements made, as to how he was to
govern Portugal, when he got there? was
nothing settled as to the oaths and en-
gagements, by which he was to bind
himself still deeper to the Constitution,
on entering upon his office of Regent?
and if such things were, why are they not
produced ? is it for fear of completing that
chain of evidence, which would demon-
strate the incessant interference of Eng-
land, in all the transactions connected
with Don Miguel's return to Portugal ?
Why, Sir, there was such a protocol, in
January, 1828; for it has appeared in
print; and therefore it ought to be laid
before Parliament. And what was it
about? why it was about a loan of
200,0001. which we were to assist in pro-
curing for Don Miguel, to enable him to
assume the reins of government; it was
about the return of our troops from Por-
tugal, which at the special request of
Don Miguel, was agreed to be delayed,
so as to enable him to express his wishes
on that subject, after his arrival at Lisbon ;
it was about the separation of the crowns
of Portugal and Brazil; it was about the
abdication of Don Pedro, which England
and Austria again pledged themselves to
press ; and lastly, it was about a treaty to
regulate the order of succession to the
throne of Portugal, which England and
Austria undertook definitively to settle,
and then to communicate for general re-
cognition, to the other powers of the
world. Here then is this England, whose
principle and practice it is, never to inter-
fere in the internal concerns of Portugal,
helping her to a loan, separating her from
Brazil, urging her Sovereign to abdicate,
and undertaking to settle the order. of
succession to her throne. For this proto-
col I intend to move. But was nothing


J COMMONS


Affitirs of' Porhtgal.. 88






89 Afairs of Portugal.


else settled in England? I must infer that
something else was settled in England,
because I find in these papers, an extract
from a despatch from Sir Frederick Lamb
of the 1st of March 1828, in which he
mentions that he had successfully objected
to a form of oath which Don Miguel pro-
posed to take, and which Sir Frederick
Lamb declares would have been a total
departure from all that had been settled
in England." It is important that we
should know what was settled in England,
as to Don Miguel's proceedings in Portu-
gal; and therefore I shall move for a
statement with reference to this passage in
the papers. From thispoint forwards, these
papers become less and less satisfactory;
and I must say, without meaning any thing
uncivil, that there never was such a mysti-
fication practised upon Parliament, under
pretence of giving them information, as
these twenty pages of the Lisbon corre-
spondence exhibit. They contain indeed a
very clear and concise narrative of the suc-
cessive steps by which, between the 1st
of March and the 1st of July, Don
Miguel transformed himself from the obe-
dient and oath-taking lieutenant, into the
rebellious and perjured usurper. But
nearly the whole of this information
might equally be found in the columns of
private correspondence of the newspapers
of the day, and is by this time safely en-
tombed in the pages of the Annual
Register. These papers are indeed in-
geniously swelled by a copious infusion of
Portuguese decrees, and addresses, and
dissertations extracted from the Lisbon
Gazette, and the Trombeta Final, and
circumstantial accounts of military festivi-
ties, and loyal speeches from power-loving
Bishops, which occupy full one-third of
this part of the volume, and which seem
put in, to swell the size, or to deter some
from attempting to open it, and to bewilder
those who do, and lead their attention
astray; but which serve, as I can see, to
give no useful or important information.
But we look in vain for any thing to shew,
what, during any part of this period were
the sentiments and views of the English
Cabinet; we look in vain for any thing to
shew, what instructions they had given to
our ambassador, when first he set out
upon his mission, and what orders they
conveyed to him afterwards, in conse-
quence of his report of the doings in Por-
tthgal; we look in vain for any thing to
shew, what were those earnest and re-


peated remonstrances, which the Speech
from the Throne, in July 1828, informed
us, his majesty had been advised to make,
"against those measures in Portugal by
which the just expectations of his majesty
had been disappointed," remonstrances
too, which that same Speech informed
us, had been utterly disregarded; we
look in vain for any thing to show, what
steps the advisers of the Crown took, to
hold Don Miguel to his engagements
with England, and to resent the gross in-
dignity, which they themselves declare, he
had put upon our sovereign. Here then
I call for further information. We ought
first to have a copy of the original instruc-
tions given to Sir Frederick Lamb; these
are indispensable; they are necessary in
order to shew what were the views and
intentions of the Government, at the time
when Don Miguel sailed from England;
we ought next to have copies or extracts
of all communications made to Sir Fre-
derick Lamb, after his arrival at Lisbon,
expressive of the sentiments of the Govern-
ment upon Don Miguel's progressive
departure from his engagements; and
particularly it is fitting that we should
have those earnest and repeated remon-
strances, which were mentioned in the
Speech from the Throne. When it is ad-
mitted by the Ministers themselves, that a
gross indignity has been offered to the
King of England, it is right that Parlia-
ment should know the nature and extent
of that indignity, and the steps which
have been taken by the advisers of the
Crown, to assert the honour of the Crown.
This is a matter which touches the honour
of the country, and any attempt at con-
cealment must necessarily excite a sus-
picion, that that honour has been
imperfectly guarded. These instructions
given to our ambassador, and these re-
monstrances, which he was ordered to
make, would of course not be sufficient,
without his report of the manner in which
he executed those instructions, and of the
temper in which those remonstrances were
received; and further extracts are there-
fore necessary from the despatches of Sir
Frederick Lamb; for these also, therefore,
it is my intention to move. It has been
stated, and there can be no doubt of the
fact, that the usurpation of Don Miguel
was unfortunately much assisted by the
presence of the British troops at Lisbon,
after his arrival; inasmuch as all possi-
bility of resistance to the first steps of his


{MAWcir 10}


,4fairss of Portugal.








proceedings, was prevented by the instruc- that the King of England, acting of
tions under which our general was acting, course by the advice of his responsible
to put down disturbances in Lisbon, counsellors, has recognized Donna Maria
and to protect the persons of the royal as lawful Queen of Portugal; and that,
family. These instructions were given during her residence here, she was not
under other circumstances, and with far veiled in that unpretending incognito,
different views; but they became un- under which other sovereigns de Jure have
luckily a powerful engine in the hands of shrouded their misfortunes, while taking
the usurper. For these instructions I refuge in this country, during periods of
propose to move. I cast no blame upon actual dethronement; but that she was
these instructions. I do not censure the received on all proper occasions, with
delay in removing the troops. To the those honours which are due to an ap-
latter I was myself a party, and however parent Queen. We have had a hint, not
unfortunate its effects, it was ordered for very obscurely given, in the Speech from
the.best, under the circumstances of the theThrone, that the time might not be far
moment; but I do say, that as England distant, at which his Majesty might be
had in this manner, however uninten- advised to recognize the usurper of the
tionally, given to Don Miguel the power- crown of Donna Maria. It may be useful,
ful aid of her military protection, in the and must be instructive, to be able to
early execution of his revolutionary plans, compare this correspondence, which took
we were on that account the more bound place upon her arrival in this country,
to have interposed in the after-stages, to with the announcement, whenever it may
compel him to adhere to his engagements, be made, that we have recognized and
With this extract from the instructions to sanctioned her dethronement. We have
Sir W. Clinton in December 1826, we been informed in a Speech from the Throne,
ought also to have any communication that negotiations have been undertaken for
upon the same subject, which may have the purpose of reconciling the Princes of
been made at the same time, to Sir W. the House of Branganza, or, as I should
A'Court, our then ambassador at Lisbon. say, for that of inducing Don Pedro to
With the Terceira branch of these papers, acquiesce in the usurpation of Don
I shall not at present meddle. A right Miguel; and I intend to move for the
honourable friend of mine has given notice production of those negotiations. In the
of a motion specifically upon that sub- Speech from the Throne at the close of the
ject: I am glad he has done so. That Session of 1828, it was stated, that "his
outrage upon the laws of nations, that Majesty relied upon the wisdom of the
open and violent departure from all our august head of the House of Braganza,
boasted principles of neutrality and non- to take the course which should be best
interference, is a matter of too much im- calculated, to maintain the interests and
portance to be made an incidental topic honour of that illustrious family, and to
in a general discussion, and well deserves secure the peace and happiness of the do-
the undivided attention of the House. I minions over which it presides." Very
shall purposely abstain from saying any- sound doctrine this, and perfectly consis-
thing at present on that transaction; and tent with the principles of non-interference.
I hope honourable Members will reserve It informed us that the head of the House
their opinions upon it, till my right of Braganza was the best judge of matters
honourable friend shall bring it distinctly which concerned the interests and honour
before the House. But among the papers of his own family, and which affected the
which have been given relative to this peace and happiness of his own dominions.
affair of Terceira, there is a letter from But one could not help thinking that its
the Duke of Wellington to Lord Aber- enunciation at that particular moment,
deen, of January 1829, in which the was intended to convey a hint to the
former states, that he incloses to the sovereign in question. But what happens
latter, a correspondence which had passed in February 1829? Why then it comes out,
between himself and the Marquises of that this reliance upon the wisdom of the
Barbacena and Palmella, regarding the head of the House of Braganza, had been
arrival in this country, of the Queen, neither very firm nor very long lived; and
Donna Maria da Gloria; and with this that, with all our reliance upon the wisdom
correspondence Parliament ought, I think, of this august person, we had thought that
to be made acquainted. It is well known, this wisdom might be much assisted by a


91 ffarsof Portug~al.


Affairs of Portug~al. 92


{COMMONS)






Affairs of Portugal. 94


little advice from an English ambassador,
as to the best means of maintaining the
honour and interests of his family, and of
securing the peace and happiness of the
dominions over which that family reigns :
and accordingly an ambassador was sent
for that purpose to the Brazils. And the
Speech of February 1829 informed us, that
"his Majesty, deeply interested in the
prosperity of the Portuguese monarchy,
had entered into negotiations with the
head of the House of Braganza, in the
hope of terminating a state of affairs
which is incompatible with the permanent
tranquillity and welfare of Portugal."
Why, Sir, do what we will, and say what
we like, there is a fatality, which draws us,
like the moth into the candle, to mix
ourselves in Portuguese affairs : for
the truth is, and no Government can
deny it, that the real interests of England
are concerned in maintaining the tran-
quillity, and protecting the welfare of Por-
tugal: and even those very Ministers, who
professed to abandon that tranquillity and
welfare to their fate, find themselves com-
pelled to step in, though too late and
without success, and to make an attempt to
restore them. The communication from
tha Throne at the end of last Session, im-
plied, that the negotiations which had
been announced at the beginning of the
Session, were still going on, as it stated
"the determination of his Majesty to use
every effort to reconcile conflicting in-
terests, and to remove the evils, which still
pressed upon Portugal." But the Speech
at the opening of this Session, informed
us in plain terms, that those negotiations
had entirely failed, as it stated that His
Majesty lamented that he was unable to
announce the prospect of a reconciliation
between the Princes of the House of Bra-
ganza." Now, I apprehend it is usual, I
am sure it is becoming, that when Parlia-
ment has been informed from the Throne,
that negotiations have been entered into,
and has learnt from the same quarter, that
those negotiations have failed, some in-
formation should be laid before Parlia-
ment, to enable them to judge whether the
failure is in any degree imputable to those,
who have been the advisers of the Crown
in the course of the transaction; and it
might have been expected, that, without
waiting for a motion upon this subject,
the Government should themselves have
laid before Parliament the details of this
negotiation. But as they have not done


so, I shall propose to the House to ask for
this information. I am the more induced
to do this, because a part of these nego-
tiations has already appeared in print,
and I am sorry to say, that what has so
appeared, shows, that the Government of
England placed these negotiations upon a
basis, which has been unequivocally con-
demned by Parliament; and that they
made the immediate marriage of Donna
Maria to Don Miguel, if not the sine qud
non, at least the fundamental principle of
the only arrangement which they were
willing to propose. Now, I know per-
fectly well, that this marriage formed part
of the original plan of Don Pedro, in
1827, and was, on that account, encou-
raged by the English Government at that
time; but will any man tell me that this
marriage could rest, in 1829, upon the
same grounds as in 1827 ? Could it in
fact be called the same marriage? What
had happened in the interval ? What, as
far as this marriage is concerned, had not
happened in the interval? One short year
only, had indeed elapsed, but upon the
records of that one short year, Don Miguel
had found
"Ample room, and verge enough,
The characters of Hell to trace."
Will any man venture to assert, that if, in
1827, Don Pedro, or Mr. Canning, could
have read forward into the Book of Fate,
and have foreseen the events of 1828, they
would for one instant have entertained the
project of such an alliance; and could we
have believed, if we had not known it to
be certain, that in 1829, with the events
of 1828 fresh before their eyes, an English
Cabinet could have proposed to a Father
and a Sovereign, to consign his infant
daughter, with her rival right upon her
head, to the care and custody of a man,
who had shewn that he dealt with perjury
as an amusing exercise of ingenuity ; in
whom, by their own admission, coward-
ice makes cruelty an instinct; and who,
in yielding to his fears, in glutting his
revenge, or in grasping after regal sway,
has spared neither infancy nor age, and
respected neither sex nor station. Could
such a proposition have been made with
any other view, but to secure to Don
Miguel the fruits of his violence and in-
justice; and does not this tally with all
the rest, and bear out those, who main-
tain, that throughout the whole of these
transactions the Government of England
has incessantly laboured to assist and


{MARCH 10}


93 Alairs of Portugal.






95 Affairs of Portugal.


confirm the usurpation of Don Miguel.
The basis upon which this negotiation was
founded, seems to have consisted of five
principal propositions.
1. The immediate marriage of the Queen of
Portugal with the Infant, Don Miguel,
who should take the title of King.
2. The conclusion of a family compact, of
which the Emperor of Austria should be
umpire.
3. That in case of the death of the Queen
without issue, before Don Miguel, (quod
Di prius omen in ipsnum convertant) the
crown should pass to the royal branch of
Portugal; (that is, to Don Miguel.)
4. That in case of the death of the King
Regent, the Queen should reign.
5. That no notice should be taken of the
changes, which had happened, in the form
of Government in Portugal.
There was also a sixth condition of
minor importance, that as a preliminary to
this arrangement, the Queen should im-
mediately be removed from this country,
and placed under the care of the Court of
Austria. Upon the project of the mar-
riage, I shall not say another word; but I
must remark upon that latter part of the
first article, which proposes that Don
Miguel should, upon his marriage, assume
the title of King, that this would be a
direct violation of the laws of Lamego,
relative to the succession to the throne ;
which have for nearly seven hundred years
been considered as the fundamental laws
of the Portuguese monarchy. The laws
of Lamego declare, that a Queen of Por-
tugal shall marry only a Portuguese
Noble; but they add, that this Noble shall
not assume the title of King, till there has
been issue male of the marriage. How
then, consistently with that law, could
Don Miguel assume the title of King, im-
mediately upon his marriage with a child
of nine years old? As to the second ar-
ticle, relating to the family compact, it was
perhaps natural, considering the family
connexion, that if an umpire were required,
the Emperor of Austria should be chosen.
But the third article is most remarkable
and ominous. I wish to say as little as
possible, of those words of evil import,
which contemplate the early and prema-
ture death of this unhappy child. The
ancients, indeed, thought it unlucky dis-
tinctly to mention such things, and had a
superstitious belief, that deaths too plainly
spoken of, were also too likely to happen;
but such refinements are unsuited to diplo-
matic transactions; and truth compels me to


confess, that any arrangement, which had
for its object, the immediate marriage of
Donna Maria to Don Miguel, would have
been imperfect in its details, if it had not
provided, at least for the possibility, that
she might never live to pass the age of
childhood. But the latter part of this
article abrogates the rights of three mem-
bers of the House of Braganza, in direct
violation of the laws of Lamego. By those
laws, the daughters of the King of Por-
tugal, provided they are born in Portugal
or its dependencies, succeed to the
throne equally with sons, in preference to
his brother; unless such daughters.should
marry a foreigner, and thereby forfeit their
right to the throne. Now, Don Pedro
has three daughters besides Donna Maria,
who were all born in the Brazils, before the
final separation of that country from Por-
tugal, and while it was still a dependency
of Portugal; and all these three Prin-
cesses have therefore, in reversion, pre-
cisely the same right to the throne of Por-
tugal, as that, of which we have recognized
the validity, in the person of Donna Maria.
These reversionary rights could not be
affected by the manner in which the reign
or the right of Don Pedro came to an end;
and they are equally valid, whether we
hold with some, that Don Pedro forfeited
his right to the crown of Portugal by
accepting that of the Brazils, when it was
separated from Portugal, and by thus be-
coming the sovereign of a foreign country;
or whether we maintain with others, that
his reign over Portugal ceased only by his
own act of abdication. For if wetake the
most unfavourable assumption, and admit,
that Don Pedro forfeited his rights to Por-
tugal, from the moment when he became
Emperor of separated and independent
Brazil, still that forfeiture could only be
personal to himself, and prospective to
children to be thereafter born to him;
but it could not be retrospective in its
operation, and it could not extinguish
rights, which had been created previously,
and which had accrued to his children
already born, from the hour of their birth,
and which were inherent in them, from,the
first moment when they began to breathe.
But if we take the other view of the case,
and consider Don Pedro's right to Por-,
tugal to have ceased only by his own
abdication, it is clear, that that abdication,
could only be tantamount to political,
death, and that instead [of extinguishing
the rights of those who derived through


ICOMMONSI


Affairs of Portugal2. 96






97 Affairs of Portugal. {MAI
him, it only tended to bring those rights
sooner into operation. Upon either view
of this question, therefore, in the event of
the death of Donna Maria without issue,
the Crown of Portugal would descend to
her next sister; and so on to the other
two, before it could come to Don Miguel;
and consequently this article, by which it
was proposed that if Donna Maria should
die without issue the Crown should pass to
Don Miguel, was a positive violation of
the fundamental laws of the Portuguese
Monarchy; and set aside, by a stroke of
the pen, the birth-right of three members
of the House of Braganza, who, by reason
of their tender age, could not possibly be
consenting parties to the arrangement.
The fourth article proposes that, which at
first sight appears unnecessary, but which
looks as if it was put in for the purpose of
implying a doubt of the title of Donna
Maria, upon the assumed validity of which
title, however, the whole arrangement is
founded. For if, as we maintain and ad-
mit, Donna Maria reigns by her own in-
herent birth-right, and if Don Miguel's
proposed title of King, was only to accrue
to him by reason of his marriage with her,
how could his death, although it would
put an end to his matrimonial title, bring
into question her pre-existing and inde-
pendent right? and why, therefore, could
it be necessary to stipulate, that she should
still continue to reign notwithstanding his
death; and does not this article seem pro-
posed, for the purpose of implying, that
her right was in some way or other de-
pendent upon his? The fifth article re-
quires no comment; it proposes that no
notice should be taken of the changes
which have happened in the Government
of Portugal: and this might naturally
have been looked for, in any arrangement
proceeding from the quarter from which
this was proposed. Such were the terms,
which our Government proposed to Don
Pedro, as the basis of an arrangement for
restoring the tranquillity of Portugal; and
it does seem strange, that we, who profess
never to interfere in Portuguese affairs,
should quietly propose to subvert those
laws, which for 700 years, have regulated
the order of succession in the Portuguese
monarchy, and to cut off the rights of
three members of the House of Braganza.
But what is stranger still, it appears that
when these propositions were declined by
Don Pedro, our Government turned round,
and declared, that after all it did not much
VOL. XXIII.


ICH 10}


Affairs of Portugal.


signify, for these were not British propo-
sitions. Not British propositions indeed!
why then, whose propositions are they?
Brazilian propositions they cannot be, be-
cause they were made to Brazil, and by
Brazil rejected; are they by chance Spanish
propositions? do they happen to be Mi-
guelite propositions ? and have we been
making ourselves the gratuitous Plenipo-
tentiaries of Don Miguel and of Spain,
for the purpose of persuading Don Pedro
to agree to an arrangement, the effect of
which would have been, to establish in
Portugal that influence of Spain, which it
has always heretofore been the great aim
of English policy to exclude ? All these
circumstances render it absolutely neces-
sary that these negotiations should be laid
before Parliament. In the present state of
this affair I do not propose to Parliament
to pronounce any opinion, I only call for
papers. The Government by presenting
papers have pleaded to this tribunal; they
are therefore bound to furnish us with the
necessary elements of judgment. I ask
Parliament to pronounce no opinion, be-
cause I am very sure, that for the present,
there is no intention of recognizing Don
Miguel. Events which have happened in
the Brazils, determinations which the Em-
peror is understood to have taken, and
circumstances which we hear are about to
happen in Terceira, must necessarily in-
duce our Government to pause, and wait
the course of events, before they take a
step which might prove so embarrassing
to them ; and, indeed, if the reports, which
we hear, are founded in truth, the Govern-
ment is more likely to be under the ne-
cessity of recognizing a Regency at Ter-
ceira, in the name of Donna Maria, whose
rights, as Queen of Portugal, they have
openly acknowledged. Sir, when upon
former occasions, I have felt it my duty to
bring under the consideration of the House,
the foreign policy of his Majesty's Minis-
ters, and to point out, what I think, the
false and injurious principles upon which
they have acted ; my right hon. friends,
for want perhaps, of better arguments to
assail me with, have endeavoured to put
me down with a cry; and one and all have
exclaimed to the House, "Listen not to
him, for he would involve you in war?"
and I dare say I shall hear the same
charge repeated this evening, as the
readiest way of dealing with a difficult
discussion. Sir, I deny the charge, both in
argument and in fact. I say that war
E






Affairs of Portugal. 100


neither is the object of my wish, nor would
have been the consequence of the mea-
sures which I would have advised. I main-
tain that, on the contrary, war is much
more likely to result from the system of
policy pursued by his Majesty's Govern-
ment. I am neither mad, nor destitute of
ordinary sense ; how, then, is it possible,
I could wish to plunge my country into
unnecessary war ? A celebrated writer,
who lived in a country where military
glory, beyond all other things, dazzles the
public mind, has justly observed,that none
are really fond of war, but those who are
ignorant of its evils. And if there are any
in this country whom a love of national
glory can blind to the magnitude of the
price, by which alone that glory can be
purchased, sure I am, that the trophies of
that war, which ended at Trafalgar and at
Waterloo, might satiate the most ardent
imagination, and reconcile it to a century
of peace. But peace is best maintained,
by a dignified, and above all, by a just
behaviour ; by shewing that we respect
ourselves, and by gaining the respect of
others ; by neither doing, nor bearing in-
justice; by neither offering, nor brooking
affront; by neither seeking a quarrel, nor
inviting insult, by proclaiming that we
never will accept one. But above all, the
maxim of a great country ought to be,
" Be just, and fear not." We should steer
a straightforward course, diverted neither
by timid apprehension of the strong, nor
by the temptation of preying upon the
weak: and then, if war should be forced
upon us, by the violence and injustice of
others, we should be strong in that union
which arises from a consciousness of right;
and we should carry into battle that cheer-
ing encouragement which the sympathy
of bystanders inspires. But by pursuing
an opposite course, by leaguing with the
oppressor, and trampling upon the op-
pressed ; by submitting to wrong from
others, and perpetrating wrong ourselves;
by making personal and party objects, in-
stead of great principles, the rule of our
conduct ; we break down and confound
all those moral distinctions, in which our
strength ought to lie; and we find our-
selves at last involved in a labyrinth of
complications, out of which there is no
escape, except by humiliating concessions,
or else by unjust, and therefore disadvan-
tageous war. That this is no visionary
picture, recent declarations demonstrate.
Ministers themselves have admitted, that


the state of this Portuguese question is
not what it ought to be ; and that because
other nations have not chosen to accept
from us, our interpretation of what we
chose to call their duty, the chances of the
preservation of peace are not what they
would otherwise have been. Why this is
undoubtedly true ; and it is impossible to
deny, that the course which the Govern-
ment has pursued with respect to Portu-
gal, may lead to results which may se-
riously threaten the tranquility of Europe.
Changes have taken place in councils be-
yond the Atlantic; changes may take
place in councils on this side the Atlantic;
other nations of Europe may not continue
to leave the affairs of Portugal, as matter
exclusively belonging to England; popular
feeling may stimulate other Governments,
to give to a rightful Queen and her suffer-
ing subjects, the same protection and aid
which England is considered as having
afforded to a faction and an usurper; and
if, in the mean while, we should have
committed ourselves by an act of recog-
nition, we may be placed in a situation, in
which we should have no alternative, but
either to abandon and desert Don Miguel
and his friends, as we have already aban-
doned and deserted the constitutional
party, or else to engage in war, for the
support of Don Miguel! Speeches which
have lately been made from foreign thrones
are well deserving of attention. The
Speech from our Throne at the beginning
of this Session, informed us, that the King
of England could announce no prospect of
a reconciliation between the Princes of
the House of Braganza; another Monarch,
in a recent speech to his legislature, says,
that he is engaged in concert with his
allies, in endeavours to promote the tran-
quillity of the Peninsula. Besides the
difference of action, there is a difference
of expression here which is well deserving
of attention; our communication has re-
ference to Portugal only, the other to the
whole Peninsula; and does not this seem
to indicate that the last-mentioned nego-
tiation has referenceto Spain also, and is
calculated to extend and establish her in-
fluence in Portugal. It has been the
ancient and invariable policy of England,
not only to draw close our connexion with
Portugal, but to exclude from Portugal
the influence of Spain; but I maintain,
that the tendency and effect of the system
recently pursued has been, to destroy our
influence in Portugal, and to establish


99 Affairs of Portugal.


IcoMMioNs I






101 Affairs of Portugal.


there the influence of Spain. The triumph
of Don Miguel has been the triumph of
Spanish influence; the fruit of usurpation,
indeed, has ripened at Lisbon, but the root
has drawn its nourishment from Madrid.
It might, perhaps, have been thought by
some, that the eminent services, civil and
military, rendered by us to Don Miguel,
might have inspired him with some grate-
ful feelings in return. That our prompti-
tude to recognize his blockades, our vigour
to defend his colonies, and our zeal to un-
dertake his negotiations, might have en-
titled us to the release of a prisoner or
two, if we had chosen to content ourselves
with such aboon. But I have understood
that our Government have vainly endea-
voured to obtain from Don Miguel, any
relaxation of that system of persecution
and oppression, which he has been carry-
ing on towards his subjects. Like the
Highlander who, having in battle cut
down his opponent, and being asked for
quarter, exclaimed, My dear friend, ask
me for any thing else in the world,"-
Don Miguel, it is said, would be ready to
oblige us by taking up any body we please,
but begs that we will not press him about
letting any of his prisoners out; and if
report does not much mislead us, the
Government of England, repulsed and
rejected by their ungrateful favourite, have
been obliged to become suppliants to
Spain, and to intreat the Spanish Govern-
ment to use its influence with Don Miguel,
to prevail upon him to do, what we have
been unable to obtain at his hands. It
has further been reported, 1 know not how
truly, that the recognition of Don Miguel
by Spain, took place either by our advice,
or upon previous consultation with us.
Now, if all this be true, is it not a proof,
that the system pursued by the Govern-
ment has not only failed in maintaining
that influence in Portugal which, in for-
mer times, it has been our object to pre-
serve, but has established there that in-
fluence of Spain which we have always
endeavoured to exclude. But if we have
lost our influence in Portugal, how has
fared our character in Europe? In 1826,
a Sovereign, in alliance with us, gave to
his subjects free institutions; and all
Europe immediately exclaimed, "This is
the advice of England! In 1829, another
Sovereign, in alliance with us, called to his
councils an administration, repugnant to
the liberal feelings of his subjects, and
looked upon by them as hostile to their


Constitutional rights ; and all Europe im-
mediately exclaimed, This is the nomi-
nation of England!" Mr. Canning, in
1826, disclaimed the boon, and could
hardly prevail upon any body to believe
him; the present Government, in 1829,
denied the infliction, and the world are
equally incredulous. In 1826, when ra-
tional freedom seemed to dawn upon Por-
tugal, and to hold out a promise of pros-
perity and happiness, all men fancied they
could trace in that auspicious event, the
secret working of the beneficent hand of
England; in 1829, when a cloud over
spread France, and seemed to threaten
the subversion of her dearest institutions,
all mankind pronounced, that it must be
the handiwork of England. Whence has
arisen this great and sudden change in
public opinion ? Why is it, that England,
who only three short years ago was hailed
as the author of good, should now be
branded as the instigator of evil? Why,
the reason is, that here, as well as here-
after, men will be judged, not by their pro-
fessions, but by their deeds. I say, then,
that we have shrunk from solemn and
public engagements; that we have aban-
doned to exile, to beggary, to dungeons,
and to death, thousands of men, whom a
knowledge of those engagements, might
justly have led to count upon our protec-
tion; that we have lost our influence in
Portugal, and have thrown her into the
arms of Spain; that we have tarnished
our character in Europe, and endangered
the permanence of peace; and if any man
shall ask me, what has been accomplished,
by sacrifices so many, and so great, the
only answer I can make to him is, that
Constitutional freedom in Portugal has
been destroyed. Sir, I will now read to
the House what it is that I propose to
move for. That an humble Address be
presented to his Majesty, that he will be
graciously pleased to give directions that
there he laid before this House :
1. Extract of so much of the instructions
given to Sir W. HI. Clinton, on his taking
the command of the British Force, sent to
Portugal, in December 1826, as relates to
the interference of the troops under his com-
mand, in suppressing disturbances in Lis-
hon, and in protecting the persons of the
Royal Family of Portugal.
2. Extract of such parts of any communica-
tions made to Sir William A'Court, as relate
to .his interference.
3. Copy of the Protocol of the conference held
in London, on the 12th of January 1828,
E2


fMARC11 10}


Afaht~s of Portulgal, 102







Affairs of Portugal. 104


between the Ministers of England, Austria,
and Portugal.
4. Copy of any Document explaining what
"had been settled in England," relative to
the course to be pursued by Don Miguel on
his arrival in Portugal; as referred to by Sir
Frederick Lamb, in his despatch of 1st
March 1826, (No. 17, of the Papers pre-
sented to Parliament in June 1829.)
5. Copy of the Instructions given to Sir Frede-
rick Lamb, on his proceeding to Portugal,
as His Majesty's Ambassador, in 1828.
G. Extracts of such further parts of the de-
spatches from Sir Frederick Lamb, as relate
to the proceedings in Portugal,-in violation
of the engagements entered into by Don
Miguel, and to the execution of the instruc-
tions given to Sir Frederick Lamb, in conse-
quence thereof.
7. Extracts of such parts of any despatches
addressed to Sir Frederick Lamb, while in
Portugal, as relate to the proceedings in
Portugal, in violation of the engagements
of Don Miguel, and to the earnest and re-
peated remonstrances made in consequence
thereof, in the name of his Majesty, and
mentioned in the Speech from the Throne,
on 24th July, 1828.
8. Copy of the instructions given in 1828,
to Lord Strangford, on his proceeding to
the Brazils, and Copies or Extracts of
such parts of all despatches to or from
him, and to or from the Marquis of Bar-
bacena, as relate to those negotiations for
the settlement of the affairs of Portugal,
which were announced in the Speech from
the Throne, on the 5th of Feb. 1829.
9. Copies of the Correspondence between the
Duke of Wellington, and the Marquises of
Barbacena and Palmella, regarding the ar-
rival in this country of the Queen, Donna
Maria da Gloria, referred to in the Duke of
Wellington's Letter to Lord Aberdeen, Jan.
1829. (No. 37, of the Papers presented to
Parliament in June 1829.)
Mr. Herries, on the Motion being put,
rose and claimed the indulgence of the
House while he stated a few objections to
the Motion of his noble friend, and a few
reasons why the House should not comply
with the Motion. He would not pretend
to determine the decision of the House,
knowing, as he did, that several of his
right hon. friends were ready and better
able than he was to answer the noble Lord;
he would only enforce some points the
noble Lord had slurred over, and explain
the incorrect view he had taken of others.
The noble Lord had already made as
serious an attack as he could make if he
had all the papers he moved for, and they
corresponded entirely to his supposed view
oftheir contents. Though thenoble Lord's
speech was nominally for the production


of certain documents, it really was a cen-
sure on the present Administration ; and
that delivered, too, with the confidence of
a belief that the documents would bear him
out in his animadversions. The only ob-
ject, indeed, for which the speech of the
noble Lord was made, was to attack the Ad-
ministration now in existence; but hewould
beg to remind the noble Lord, that most of
the actions complained of were begun
under the Administration of which he was
member, and which mustsharethe blame,
if blame were due to them, with the pre-
sent Administration. He could show that
the course pursued by the present Minis-
ters in relation to Portugal was the same
in principle as that of their predecessors
in office. He should first object to the
production of papers during the progress
of negotiations, which might frustrate the
objects of them. The noble Lord did not
directly assert that the Government had
advised the giving, and had supported the
Constitution, but he said that which im-
plied as much. The question for the
House to determine was, was the British
Government the originator of the Portu-
guese Constitution, or was it not? His
noble friend knew well that the official do-
cuments would prove the negative of such
a proposition, and therefore he adroitly
confined himselfto insinuating, that though
we were not literally, we were morally
bound to guarantee that Constitution.
Now he begged leave to explicitly deny
that such was the fact, and to state, that
neither as originators, nor as suggestors,
nor as abettors, was this country bound to
maintain that Constitution. Dates, as the
noble Lord very well knew, clearly showed
that this country had no act nor part in the
framing of the Constitution which Don
Pedro granted to his Portuguese subjects.
Without taking up the time of the House
with proving this fact, which was, as his
noble friend well kpew, indisputable, and
on which the whole question virtually
rested, he would at once appeal to the very
best authority on the subject.-he need
perhaps not say, he meant the late Mr.
Canning. The speeches of Mr. Canning
had been collected and edited with no or-
dinary care, and might be considered as
the correct records of his sentiments, and
nothing could be stronger than Mr. Can-
ning's declaration, in his speech of DeGem-
her 12th, 1826, which never could be for-
gotten by any one who had the,.good
fortune to hear it. That lamented states-


103 44il~ of Portugal.


ICOMMONSI







105 1 A 17,, ,A/ of Portbyal.


man then said, It has been surmised that
this measure, as well as the abdication
which it accompanied, was the offspring of
our advice. No such thing. Great
Britain did not suggest this measure. It
is not her duty nor her practice to offer
suggestions for the internal regulation of
Foreign States." Again Mr. Canning
stated -" I am neither the champion nor
the critic of the Portuguese Constitution.
But it is admitted on all hands to have
proceeded from a legitimate source-a
consideration which has mainly reconciled
continental Europe to its establishment;
and to us, as Englishmen, it is recom-
mended by the ready acceptance which it
has met with from all orders of the Portu-
guese people." That was the principle,
and that alone, on which Mr. Canning had
countenanced the Portuguese Constitution;
and that, he contended, had been the
guiding rule of the present Government
with respect to Portugal. Further on,
Mr. Canning continued, Nothing shall
be done by us to enforce the establishment
of the Constitution; but we must take
care that nothing shall be done by others
to prevent it from being fairly carried into
effect." And in a still more striking pas-
sage, showing that it was only in the event
of foreign aggression that we should inter-
fere-" Let us fly, he said, to the aid of Por-
tugal, by whomsoever attacked-because
it is our duty to do so; and let us cease
that interference where our duty ends."
When the time arrived for producing the
several official documents relating to our
recent transactions with Portugal, it would
be seen that no departure had been made
from the principles so eloquently asserted
by Mr. Canning; but till that time arrived,
he thought itbut fair that the House should
at least refrain from expressing any censure
on those transactions. He did not agree,
indeed, with the noble Lord, that the time
was arrived when these papers could be
laid before the House. It was yet too
early for the noble Lord to obtain the
object he had in view. The noble Lord
had argued his case on the strength of a
number of documents which were piled on
the seat behind him, and from which he
made frequent quotations. He did not
know what might be the degree of authen-
ticity which those documents possessed,
but this he must say, that when called on
to produce the papers which might be an
answer to them, and which might prove
the noble Lord's statements not to be


authentic, he would reply, that these
documents were in a course of preparation,
and that when laid on the Table of the
House, they would prove that the noble
Lord's arguments were not quite so well
founded, and that the imputations which
he threw out against the Government
could not be so well supported as he would
have the House to believe. The noble
Lord had alluded often to the question of
the propriety of interference. Now, he
would not enter into that question at the
present moment. He would merely beg
the House to observe, that when the papers
were laid on the Table, they would show
that strict attention had been paid to the
principle laid down in the oft-repeated
declaration of Mr. Canning, that it was
not the feeling of this country to interfere
with the internal affairs of Portugal. It
seemed, however, to be the object of the
noble Lord by this Motion to procure a
premature production of a portion of
these papers, in order to find a cause of
censure on the conduct of the Govern-
ment. Against this it was the duty of his
Majesty's Ministers to guard; and, inas-
much as it appeared to him likely to be
prejudicial to the great interests that were
at stake, and to throw an impediment in
the way of the successful and prosperous
conclusion of the negotiations then pend-
ing, he felt that the Government, consist-
ently too with what had been the practice
on all former occasions, ought not to pro-
duce a portion of the documents, nor give
the information required, until these nego-
tiations were brought to a termination.
Ministers had no personal reluctance to
produce those documents, for they knew
they would prove their best justification;
but they deemed it as yet premature to
make a disclosure, which might thwartthemn
in attaining the great object they had in
view the preservation of the British
alliance with Portugal. He believed, too,
that the production of those papers at this
moment would injure the interests of all
the parties concerned in the pacification of
that country. When produced, which he
hoped would be at no distant time, they
would prove, that the present Ministry had
acted throughout these unpleasant trans-
actions in the full spirit of Mr. Canning's
policy of non-interference with the internal
concerns of the Portuguese nation, and it
was only a just regard for these consider-
ations which induced the Government, on
this occasion, to abstain from promulgat.


{MARCH 10}


_4ffaies oJ' POrtuga~l. 106i







107 Affairs of Portugal.


ing a triumphant defence from all the loose
and idle accusations that had been levelled
against them. His noble friend would, in
some of his ingenious surmises, which were
wrapped in his usual strain of eloquence,
have the House to believe that Ministers
had, in the policy which they had adopted,
been influenced by, or subservient to, the
insidious policy of some foreign power.
For this, again, there was not a shadow
of foundation : he would give it a positive
and peremptory denial, as would be de-
monstrated when the papers were forth-
coming. Indeed, he had expected more
from the candour of his noble friend than
an insinuation, that the moment the Go-
vernment lost the co-operation of his sup-
port, then, and not till then, they deter-
mined to pursue quite an opposite course,
and to negative the former policy of which
he and they had been previously the ad-
vocates. The Government had, through-
out the whole course of these transactions
with Portugal, looked solely to the main-
tenance of the honour and dignity of this
country. The noble Lord had himself been
very lately a party to these transactions;
and what, he would ask, did the noble
Lord see in the conduct or principles of
the Government now, which could justify
him in supposing there had been so great
a departure from that honourable course
of conduct pursued during the time the
noble Lord formed a part of the Adminis-
tration ? He could assure him that its
principles were as pure and as honourable
as during his official life, and that the pro-
duction of the papers would prove them
to have been so. The noble Lord, if he
understood him correctly, had blamed the
Government for withdrawing the English
troops from Portugal, and so allowing the
usurpation of Don Miguel: but the noble
Lord must know that it was the intention
of the Government, in furtherance of their
principle of non-interference, to withdraw
the troops before even the arrival of Don
Miguel at Lisbon. This determination
was taken while that Government was in
existence of which the noble Lord was a
member, and it was carried into execution
as soon as Portugal was secure from foreign
aggression, in strict conformity with Mr.
Canning's principle of non-interference
with its internal concerns. He begged
the House to remember, that he did not
pretend, in the few remarks he had offered,
to refute all the noble Lord's vague asser-
tions, but he could not hear so many ac-


cusations brought against the Government
without replying to some of them. The
right hon. Gentleman concluded by assert-
ing that the papers connected with the
negotiations would, when produced, prove
an ample vindication of the conduct of
the Government; but that he was so
deeply impressed with the injury to the
public service which must result from the
premature production of a part of them,
that he must give the Motion of the noble
Lord a decided negative.
On the Question being put, strange s
were ordered to withdraw, but
Lord John Russell rose and said, he
could not allow the Question to go to
a division, although reluctant to detain
the House, without stating his reasons for
supporting the Motion of the noble Lord,
when the Speech from the Throne stated,
" that the numerous embarrassments
arising from the interruption of our diplo-
matic relations with Portugal increased
his Majesty's desire to effect the termina-
tion of the evil;" and when they were
told that the recognition of Don Miguel
was not far distant, he thought there was
no time so proper for the production of
the papers connected with the negotia-
tions as the present, in order that the
House might be able to judge of the pro-
priety of the course of conduct pursued
by his Majesty's Ministers. If the papers
were not to be produced now, he did not
know when they would be. It was now
more than two years since the usurpation
took place. It was more than one since
a motion of a right hon. Gentleman (Sir
J. Mackintosh) obtained a portion of the
papers connected with the negotiations
which ensued; although it was now con-
tended that to produce any part of the
correspondence would be premature and
unjust. Premature information was given
twelve months ago, but further informa-
tion was withheld now, because it was
not mature enough for production. This
was the argument of the right hon. Gen-
tleman. The right hon. Gentleman,
feeling himself unable to answer the noble
Lord, had shown a discretion much to be
commended, by passing over in silence all
the most important topics of his speech.
He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman,
however, that the Government of this
country, as a government, did not give
the Constitution to Portugal. But it
interfered, as it were individually, and
the ambassador of this country, Lord


{COMMONS}


Affairs of Portugyal. 108







109 Affairs of Portugal.


Stuart, had concurred in its propriety,
had been instrumental in its transmission
from Brazil, and instrumental in per-
suading Don Pedro to adopt it. Mr.
Canning, also, when it arrived, declared
distinctly, in one of his despatches to our
ambassador at Lisbon, directing him to
recommend the Portuguese Regencyto put
in operation that Constitution, that any
other course than the adoption of the
Constitution would be full of danger, not
only to the safety of the Crown of Portu-
gal, but the Monarchy of Brazil." This
was certainly on the part of Mr.
Canning, giving strong advice to the
authorities in Portugal, and in consider-
ing these transactions, it should always be
remembered that Portugal was the weaker
power, long accustomed to look to
England for support in her struggles and
difficulties, and assistance in her times of
danger. The right hon. Gentleman said,
that while this Government felt bound to
protect Portugal from aggression, it had
repeatedly declared it would abstain
from all interference in her internal con-
cerns Well, then, it was during this non-
interference the Constitution was accepted.
Yet it was said, that it never was received
by the people, and that its overthrow was
to be attributed to their want of attach-
ment. Then how came it to be estab-
lished ? How came Don Miguel to send
the Duke of Cadaval on a mission to Don
Pedro, to compliment him upon his acts,
if the Constitution were deemed worthless
by those for whom it was intended ? But
the question, as regarded England, was
simply this, was the Government at
liberty to recommend the adoption of this
Constitution, considering the relative con-
nection of the two countries ; and then to
withhold all moral support from the con-
stitutionalists, who stood forth to vindi-
cate the legitimate authority of the
throne of Portugal. If any reliance were
to be placed upon the faith and honour of
national support, these men, lie thought,
had a claim to it, after the adoption of a
Constitution had been recommended by
the British Minister. Those persons who
are called the friends of that Constitution,
and who have suffered grievously for their
adherence to it, were not disposed to
become parties at any time to a rebellion
against the existing Government. They
accepted the Constitution because it came
to them guaranteed by the credit of
England; and they afterwards rose in


support of it, because they considered
themselves to be supporting a legitimate
authority, which would receive the aid
and countenance of the English Govern-
ment. It was cruel to think to what
a fate these unhappy persons had been
subjected, and to feel that their chains
and the dungeons to which they had been
dragged, and the scaffolds on which they
had perished for their support of the Con-
stitution, were the work of the English
Government, and the result of that course
of conduct which had proved it so in-
consistent with itself. It was asked, bad
as the transaction was, what remedy was
there but a declaration of war against Don
Miguel? His firm belief was, that no
such step would have been necessary, but
that the firm and prompt language of
remonstrance would have availed to save
the Portuguese Constitution-sustaining it
by inspiring the constitutionalists with
confidence in the good faith of England.
From that part of his noble friend's speech,
in which lie spoke of the manner in which
Don Miguel had dealt with the Con-
stitution immediately upon his return
to Portugal, he unfortunately differed.
After that prince left England, his noble
friend was one of the Ministers who signed
the order for the British troops to remain
some time longer in Lisbon. Now, he
must say, that had he been a party to
these transactions, he should have been
averse from leaving these troops in Lisbon
after the prince's arrival : had he, how-
ever, consented to their so remaining, it
would only have been upon condition
that instructions should have been given
to our Minister at Lisbon, to have kept a
steady eye upon the movements of such
a person as Don Miguel. Mr. Canning
had eloquently said, That where the
British flag waves, foreign dominion shall
not come:" he (Lord J. Russell) would
have added, to have rendered the posi-
tion more secure, Where British in-
fluence rests, perfidy, treachery, and dis-
loyalty shall not be allowed to prosper."
That would, he confessed, have been his
decision, and the British ambassador,
supported by British troops, would have
controlled and baffled the intrigues and
knavery of the profligates of Don Miguel's
court. By his remonstrances he would have
prevented him from proceeding step
by step towards the destruction of the
Constitution which he had sworn to de-
fend, The first step of the tyrant plainly


.4ffairS Of Por'tugal. 110


(MARCH 10}







Jll Afairs of Portugal.


evinced what were his intentions; he
began by displacing some of the governors
of the provinces, and by removing particu-
lar colonels from regiments, substituting
in their places creatures of his own. Two
regiments became, however, exasperated,
and refused to submit to this change. Now
there was a remarkable anecdote which he
could mention, as connected with the
treacherous movements of Don Miguel.
When thus his views became apparent,
some Portuguese officers of rank deter-
mined at once to seize him by stratagem,
and transport him to his brother, in Brazil.
They had completed their arrangements,
and the execution of the plot was to have
been done without bloodshed: it was
thought advisable, however, to impart a
knowledge of it to the British Com-
mandant, the consequence of which was
the assurance, that the project would,
if attempted, be immediately resisted by
the English troops, who were bound to
protect the persons of the Royal Family
of Portugal. Thus was British interposi-
tion rendered useless for the protection of
the Constitution, but sufficiently effective
to maintain Don Miguel until he had com-
pleted its overthrow. But here he would
call the attention of the House to a book
lately published in Paris, which professed
to give, in the appendix, important official
communications alleged to have passed,
during these transactions, between the
Marquis of Palmellaandthe Earl Dudley;
and between the Marquis of Barbacena
and the Earl of Aberdeen. This book was
a sort of manifesto in favour of the rights
of Donna Maria, and explanatory of her
situation. The Ministers werenot toimna-
gine, that because they chose to withhold
information, and to garble documents,
doling out miserable portions of them as
it suited their purpose, that the repre-
sentatives of other Powers, who were se-
riously involved in these negotiations,
would likewise refrain from publishing
more full and fair details. In this book
it would be seen, that in a correspondence
between the Marquis of Barbacena and
the Earl of Aberdeen, some discussion
arose about a proposition which was sup-
posed to have been carried to Brazil from
the British Government, the object of
which was, to induce Don Pedro to con-
sent to the marriage of his daughter with
Don Miguel, and then to recognize him as
the legitimate possessor of the Portuguese
tthiorL, in referring to this correspon-


dence, he could not help remarking how
strange it appeared, that in the case of
Don Miguel, who had perfidiously violated
all his oaths, who had given a grave
affront both to the dignity of the Crown
of his British Majesty, and likewise to the
nation, the first step taken by a Minister
of that Sovereign and people should be,
not to oppose or disavow the traitor, but
send a mission to a distant country to en-
deavour to carry into effect all the wishes,
views, and designs, of this false individual.
According to this mission, the crown of
Portugal was to be placed on the head of
Don Miguel, the only accompanying pro-
vision being that he should marry Donna
Maria, and have thus placed in his hands
the person of the only individual who
could be successfully opposed to him as a
legitimate rival. It would seem from this
correspondence, that there were five pro-
positions submitted by the Earl of Aber-
deen to the Marquis of Barbacena, but
the Earl of Aberdeen, in his reply, inti-
mates that they were merely suggestions.
The Marquis rejoins, that he was glad of
it, and begs, that to prevent future mis-
takes, they may be submitted to him in
writing. The five propositions were, 1st,
that the Queen should immediately marry
Don Miguel, he holding the title of King ;
2nd, that a family compact should be
concluded under the mediation of the
Emperor of Austria; 3rd, that in case of
the Queen's death, the crown should pass
to the Portuguese branch of the royal
family; 4th, that in case the King should
die, the Queen should reign ; 5th, that no
notice should be taken of the changes in
the government. Lord Aberdeen then
stated, That it is indispensable for her
most faithful Majesty the Queen Donna
Maria to continue her journey to Vienna,
as at first intended by her father." Why
this should have been held indispensable
he confessed himself at a loss to compre-
hend; unless perhaps Ministers thought
that, because Don Miguel had taken a
journey to Vienna, and had come from
thence to take his seat upon the throne
of Lisbon, and afterwards succeeded in his
usurpation, the young Queen might, from
the same jaunt have equal luck in ejecting
the intruder : or whether it was, that as the
air of Vienna had impregnated Don MiA
guel with good sound principles of loyalty,
there was an equal chance of the same suc-
cess with the young Princess, and thereby
some security that she would be weaned


(COMMONS)


Affalirs of Portugal. .112






113 Afairs of Portugal.


from any violent propensity towards new
opinions. Which, or whether either of
these causes had influenced the British
Ministers, he could not say, but it was
due to Lord Aberdeen to add, that with
the proposed recognition of the sovereignty
of Don Miguel was to be a recommenda-
tion of a political amnesty, as an essential
preliminary to the pacification of Portugal.
Now, it was singular enough, that the
visit of the young Queen to Vienna was
to be an indispensable requisition, while
the amnesty was to be a mere recom-
mendation. The utter hopelessness, how-
ever, of any amnesty which could flow
from a source so foul as that, to use the
words of the noble Secretary of State, of
" a false, perfidious, cruel, and cowardly
prince," must be apparent, unless it were
supported by something more than a re-
commendation, and made as indispensa-
ble as the young Queen's going to Vienna.
He must state his admiration of the an-
swers of the Marquis of Barbacena, who,
when required to surrender his master's
daughter into the hands of Don Miguel,
said he would concur in any measures cal-
culated to place Donna Maria on the
throne of Portugal; but that the prin-
ciples of good faith and of paternal ten-
derness which marked the character of the
Emperor Don Pedro, would never permit
him to marry his daughter to the usurper
of her crown-a sentiment which, the
Marquis said, he was sure his Britannic
Majesty would participate in : which,
however, the sequel proved that the King's
Ministers did not adopt; and in this he
rejoiced they had been defeated. He
rejoiced that among the other vicissitudes
which had befallen the young Queen, she
had not been consigned to the palace of
the usurper ; that she had escaped the last
calamity of being the companion of his
bed,-
Nec victories heri tetigit captive cubile !
He rejoiced at that escape, he re-
joiced that Miguel had not another
crime to answer for in his conduct to his
niece; and if she had not this additional
suffering, he had not to answer for that
other crime ; it was not to be attributed
to any sense of honour, good feeling, or
policy, displayed by the members of his
Majesty's Government. He lamented to
say that a noble Lord was the minister to
whom the negotiation at Brazil, for the
attainment of these objects, was specially
intrusted. In referring to all these trans-


actions lie was compelled to say that they
tended to lower the high tone and liberal
policy of this country, to suit the feebler
policy of arbitrary states, and to weaken
and disfavour the growth of popular
rights. He thought that other powers of
Europe, instead of withholding approba-
tion from the conduct of the unfortunate
Portuguese, who had been driven from their
country, and had not found a very hospit-
able shelter amongst us, would wish them
success, and give them rather support;
for theirs was the cause of loyalty, of free-
dom, and of justice.
Mr. Calcraft was not surprised at the
natural indignation which had been ex-
pressed by the noble Lord against the
perfidy and treachery which had placed
Portugal in its present situation. But
Ministers, whose duty it was to consult
the honour and true interests of the
country, must not allow themselves to be
induced to swerve from the direct path of
their duty by any considerations having
reference to the personal character of the
princes with whom they had to treat.
His object in rising, was to refute the
imputation that the subversion of the
Portugese Constitution had been occa-
sioned by the influence of those Ministers.
Any other line of policy than that which
they had followed, particularly the line
of policy so warmly, he might say
passionately, recommended by the noble
Lord and his friends, would be imme-
diately followed by war; and war without
any adequate reason, which, in their
cooler moments, the noble Lord and his
friends would condemn. Nothing else
could be the result of the present Motion,
and of the manner in which it had been
brought forward; nothing else could be
the result of calling on statesmen to act
with a view to the personal character of
Sovereigns, than war. War! war! in-
terminable war, without any adequate
motive, or any justification, either of
interest, or of honour. He recollected
that several of his hon. friends, whom he
saw sitting on the other side of the House,
had deprecated the interference in foreign
affairs which had led to the late wars,
and been the cause of imposing great bur-
thens on the country; and he hoped they
would pause, and not suffer themselves to
be carried away by indignation against
the personal character of a prince.
Whatever indignation, therefore, their
might feel at the past conduct of the


{MARCCH 10}


Ala i rs 6f I-'t, r /, t,-, / '114






115 Affairs of Portugal. {COMMONS } Afairs of Portugal. 116
prince who had seated himself on the it must at once say that the Government
Portuguese throne, which became them was unfit to conduct the business of the
admirably as men of honour and huma- country. That some documents were
nity, but which ill became statesmen; furnished last year seemed to him no
whatever might be their feelings now, he argument to shew that more ought now
called on them, recollecting their former to be furnished, when it was distinctly
opinions, to pause in their design of stated, that doing so would interfere with
hurrying his Majesty's Government into a pending negotiations. He could not per-
course which could only lead to an aggra- ceive any ground for the mistrust ex-
vation of the acts they had formerly so pressed by the noble Lord, except that he
loudly deplored. As to the question of was no longer a member of the Govern-
interference in the affairs of foreign ment. In fact, its policy towards
countries, they who had lived as long in Portugal had not varied from that
the world as he had done, knew the evils adopted by the Government of which
of such interference. There was no one the noble Lord was a member. No fact
thing which Mr. Canning more distinctly had been stated by the noble Lord to
disclaimed, on the occasion of sending the show that anything short of actual hosti-
troops to Portugal, than the right of this lity on the part of his Majesty's Govern-
country to interfere in the internal affairs ment could have prevented what had
of any other. He completely concurred in taken place in Portugal. Unless the per-
the principles of Mr. Canning on that point. fidy of Don Miguel towards Portugal
Those troops were intended to resist foreign were tobe considered, therefore,a sufficient
aggression, not to take part in domestic cause for war unless a different course,
strife. In Mr. Canning's principles on likely to bring matters to a pacific and
this point, he fully concurred, and if lie satisfactory conclusion, could be pointed
wanted any proof of that statesman's out to his Majesty's Government from
determination strictly to abide by those that which they had adopted, then it must
principles, he should find it in his con- be admitted tobethe safest and the wisest.
duct towards Sir Charles Stuart. That It had been said, that if Mr. Canning
ambassador exposed himself to many were living, he would have protected the
imputations for making himself the bearer lives and property of the unfortunate
of the Constitution. And what was Mr. Portuguese refugees; but unless his sen-
Canning's conduct. Why he instantly dis- timents had materially changed, Mr. Can-
claimed any part in Sir Charles Stuart's ning would have abstained from the inter-
proceedings ; and would not interfere to ference recommended by the noble Lord.
take the least share of the responsibility. He would have exerted the energies of his
He called, then, upon all the admirers of great mind to mitigate the sufferings of
Mr. Canning, who disclaimed all inter- these people; but he would not have
ference in the internal affairs of Portugal, plunged his country into the calamities of
a policy in which he repeated he con- war. Every thing short of that had been
curred, to resist the policy recommended done by the present Government. Nego-
by the noble Lord, which was that of in- tiations had been entered into, remon-
terference. The question at issue between strances had not been spared, moderation
the Government and the noble Lord was, had been recommended, humanity had
" has the Government done its duty," been enforced, and unless the country
and to ascertain this, the noble Lord were to make war for the support of the
wished for further information. That Portuguese Constitution, it was not in the
wish had been replied to by his right lion. power of the Government to do more. It
friend, who had said, that when the pend- had also been said, that we ought to
ing negotiations were at an end, the behave like good neighbours to Portugal.
information should be furnished; but True; but that behaviour consisted in
that any communication at the present doing good offices to a neighbour, and not
moment would probably interfere with in interfering in his domestic matters. It
the negotiations in progress. Such an had been said, that neither wit nor talents
answer would probably satisfy the House. could compensate for want of prudence;
To persist in a motion for papers after and if the Government were to be com-
such an answer, betrayed a determined pared to a private man, he was sure that
mistrust in his Majesty's Government, for him no maxim was more applicable
Should the House be of the same opinion, than that he should not interfere with his








neighbour's family quarrels. His right on the internal prosperity of this country,
hon. friend had, however, so completely he would look at the position in which we
answered all the noble Lord's arguments, stood with respect to the continent of
that he felt it to be quite unnecessary Europe. In that continent there might
to trespass any further on the attention of be said to exist two chief powers, the
the House. military power of Russia, and the power
Lord Morpeth said, he was of opinion, of the liberal party of France. Both
that his noble friend had completely these powers were once disposed to admit
established his case, and a painful case it the ascendancy of England ; but we had
appeared to him to be. Enough had contrived to irritate and offend Russia;
been proved to justify his noble friend in what effect our conduct had had in
deploring the fallen credit of this country, France, it was likely we should learn in a
and arraigning the conduct which had few days. He hoped the noble Lord
been pursued by her Government. The would press his Motion to a division: and
conduct of England had been such as at if so, he should certainly give his vote in
first to give hopes to the liberal party in favour of it, in consideration of the
Portugal of support; but that afterwards justice of his reasoning, and the righteous-
it had contributed to crush their cause, ness of his cause.
By this conduct, England had lost one Colonel Beresford said, that his noble
party in Portugal which had always relation had shown the correspondence to
been attached to her without gaining which the noble Lord referred to the
the affections of any other. It had noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's
been asked, what were the Govern- Government, who had expressed it as his
ment to do ? But he would tell them opinion, that that correspondence was not
what it ought not to have done. It calculated to compromise his Majesty's
ought not to have permitted the corre- Government.
spondence of Lord Beresford, boasting of Mr. E. Davenport said, he gave his cor-
the friendship of his party for Don dial thanks to the noble Lord who had
Miguel; it ought not to have acknow- introduced the subject to the House, and
ledged with breathless haste, the blockade he congratulated those who had pre-
of Oporto; it ought not to have allowed ceded him in the debate on the manly
the occupation of Portugal by our army stand, they seemed disposed to make
to appear as the proximate cause of the against our disgraceful conduct towards
downfall of the Portuguese Constitution. Portugal. Two years ago, when he
The right hon. Member for Wareham brought forward a motion on the subject,
deprecated any interference in domestic the House appeared to look with perfect
affairs; but how could we interfere more apathy at the matter, though he believed
effectually in the domestic affairs of any that there was scarcely a period of our
man than by recommending him a wife ? history, in which such an appeal as that
The right hon. Gentleman also talked which had been made continually to the
of the evils of war. Thrice he repeated the honour and humanity of Englishmen, by
words bella, horrida bella! He always the unhappyPortuguese,duringthe lasttwo
rejoiced to hear the invaluable, and he years, would have been made in vain. At
feared in the present state of the country, that time, however,the watchfulnessof Par-
the necessary word, peace; but, as a liament over foreign affairs, had gone to
right hon. Gentleman had observed in sleep. It was first wholly occupied by the
the discussion on the Navy Estimates, the Finance Committee, andafterwards by the
best way to avert war was to show a readi- Catholic Question. If Ministers had
ness for it if required. In his opinion, taken care of our internal interest, which
however, the policy which our Govern- certainly the present state of the country
ment had pursued was most calculated did not prove, they had been unmind-
to leads into war. In the speech, indeed, ful of the national honour abroad. It
to which he had just referred, there seemed was quite evident at that time, that a
to him to lurk some dark forebodings despotism, founded on treachery and
of a state of hostility. It would be a perjury, was to be established in Portugal,
most lamentable circumstance, he under the connivance, if not by the
thought, if the conduct of England with assistance, of England. England, he be-
respect to Portugal should lead to war. lived, assisted in establishing that des-
Without noticing the effect it would have potism. She had got enshrined in her


IMARCH 101


Affairs of Portvgal. 118


117 Affairs of Portugal.






f I .1 IiAIRPUiJ A~Tairs of Porthl


f:iri g, ofli..., the spirit of Metternich, and
;'.l' h.ld become the willing instrument of
r'Nimi,. She had aided that despotism
by tlih: withdrawal of the British troops
just at the time when they might have
done some good, and compensated for
the evil they had been the means of
effecting, by the unconditional surrender
to Don Miguel of those fortresses which
were the keys of the Tagus, and by a
peer and privy councillor having corre-
sponded with the friends of the usurper.
Another great error was, promoting the
author of this correspondence, instead of
dismissing him entirely from office. It
was to such men as Lord Beresford and
Lord Aberdeen that the honour of this
country was now confided. The troops
had been withdrawn, according to the
latter, because it was time; but, why
were they not withdrawn before Miguel
w.,- :,:,.,,: in his usurpation? The forts
had been given up, it was said, because we
had no right to retain them; but, for
what purpose, or by what right did we
ever occupy them ? If we had a right to
go to Portugal at all, we had a right to
keep our troops there, and garrison the
forts till the purpose for which we went
was completed. That purpose was the
security of Portugal, which was not yet
accomplished. The noble Lord at the
head of Foreign Affairs, seemed to like
tyrants; he had favoured them by paper
blockades; he seemed disposed to recog-
nise one. The celebrated negotiator
who could not pronounce the name of
Buonaparte hastily ran to bow himself
before the throne of a royal usurper.
B~it it was said that any interference on
our part would lead to a war. He denied
that such would be the case; but even if
such a crisis should arrive, the apprehen-
sion of it should not prevent us from
interfering on the side of liberty and
justice. But with whom, he would ask,
were we to go to war-with the wretched
Government of Lisbon ? Two brigades
would, he believed, be amply sufficient to
settle all disputes with it. Had we kept
oui troops in that country, at an expense
of a few thousand pounds, till the will of
Don Pedro had been known, we should
have conferred on Portugal the lasting
uenclbi r,' a free Constitution, and ensured
the peace of Europe. The foreign policy
df this'country was at present disgraceful
to its character. And he called on the
M'embeis of that side of the House, to


vindicate the national honour in the
face of Europe. -He hoped, indeed he
was certain, that notwithstanding the
distressed state of the country, it was not
so fallen and so poverty-stricken as not
to be able to sustain our honour and our
character amongst foreign nations. We
had been the champions of freedom in
every clime, and now we had become,
under the guidance of those men who had
assented to the occupation of Naples and,
Piedmont, and Spain, the ready abettors
of tyranny and oppression. The Ministers,
indeed, seemed to think that free institu-
tions on the continent were a nuisance,
like the smoke of a steam-engine, or the
effluvia of a gas-work, which every despotic
power was bound to abate. But though
that were the opinion of Ministers, it
was not the opinion of the country. It
was not yet in love with the cold, and
formal, and blighting tyranny of
Austria, or the ruthless and destroying
virulence of Don Miguel. The country
would not consent to acknowledge that
usurper, however much the Ministers
might recommend him, and he was sure
that Ministers did not possess sufficient
courage to fix such an indelible disgrace
on our national honour, as, in spite of the
country, to recognize that despotic tyrant.
Sir F. Burdett, after complimenting the
noble Viscount upon the eloquent and
argumentative manner in which he had
introduced this Motion to the House, pro-
ceeded to say that he felt that this was a
subject in which the character of this
country was at stake, and for that reason
he wished, as an Englishman deeply con-
cerned for the national honour of his
country, to declare his opinions upon the
question. As yet, indeed, no answer had
been given, nor even an attempt at answer
had been made to the able speech with
which the question had been introduced.
It was not, therefore, necessary to offer
any of his sentiments to the House, nor did
he mean to do so with any view to make
that clearer which was already as clear as
the noon-day, but only to make known
his own opinions. The national character
of this country, he knew from experience,
was at present at a very low estimate
amongst the people on the continent-df
Europe, and that was entirely attributable
to the foreign policy which had been lat-
terly pursued by our Government. Th'e
Motion of the noble Lord, if acceded toi
was calculated in some degree to raise dtu


I l ll7 : JPrh!1








character amongst foreign nations, and to friend, Lord Aberdeen, who had lately
prove in the face of Europe that the and justly depicted him to the people
House of Commons at least was not indif- of Europe, as cruel, base, cowardly,
ferent to the national honour. All the false, and treacherous." He did not
most important portions of the documents know how far such language could be re-
bearing upon this question were still with- conciled by that noble Lord with the line
held by Government, and it was absolutely of policy he recommends, he did not know
necessary that those which were called for that Don Miguel deserved the application
by the noble Lord should be laid before of such terms, to the noble Lord, he
the House, before it could possibly pro- was sure that person might well say-
nounce any opinion as to the transactions -namn si ego dignus hic contamelia
to which those documents had reference. Snum maxnume, at tu indignus quifaceres tamen.
It was absolutely necessary, he would re- He was of opinion that the whole of
peat, that all those papers should be laid these transactions should be fully detailed
before the House. The right hon. Gen- to the House and the country. He would
tleman, the Master of the Mint, who had like to know how and why Don Miguel
attempted to answer the able speech of was first brought hither, and afterwards
the noble Lord had offered a most flimsy confirmed by England in the possession
pretence for refusing to give those docu- of power in Portugal; how it was that,
ments and the information which the when there, he acted a part so different
noble Lord required. The right hon. from that which he had promised, and we
Gentleman, said, that that would be inter- had sanctioned, to which he had bound
fearing with pending negotiations. Why, himself, when here, to perform; and for
a mere reference to the dates of those the performance of which this country was
papers would show that there was not one in some measure a guarantee; he should
of them, or at most, not above one of them, like to know why his conduct, which was
the production of which could possibly a disgrace and insult to the Crown of this
interfere with any pending negotiations. country, had not been indignantly chas-
In the result of those negotiations the cha- tized ? He was convinced that, but for
racter of this country was deeply involved : the death of Mr. Canning, Don Miguel
it was plain that Ministers were not very would never have played such a part; he
chary as to the maintenance of that cha- would not have dared to falsify his engage-
racter; indeed, it was impossible to con- ments with this country for fear of well-
fide in them in that respect, after what meritedpunishment. Hewouldhaveknown,
had already occurred; and under such cir- if Mr. Canning were living, that he could
cumstances he conceived that the House not enact such a part with impunity, and
ought to insist upon the production of he would not have had the countenance or
every species of information with regard supposed good understanding of the Eng-
to the manner in which those negotiations lish Government to support him in his
had been conducted. It used to be the doings in Portugal. To what extent or
characteristic policy of England through- amount that countenance went, and how
out Europe to aid the cause of liberty and far it was maintained by the correspond-
independence-to cherish the feelings of ence of Lord Beresford, it was not pos-
patriotism and love of freedom, to re- sible to say, unless the House had the
strain the strong, to assist the weak, to whole of the documents before it. If a
resist the encroachments of despotism, and different line of policy, if the policy of Mr.
to afford a refuge to the destitute and op- Canning had been pursued in reference
pressed. But the present character of to Portugal, it would have prevented all
her system of foreign policy was quite the those difficulties in which we now found
reverse. Although Don Miguel was stig- ourselves placed. He should say nothing
matized equally by friend and foe, the as to the propriety of removing Dop
House could not tell how far he deserved Miguel from custody at Vienna, nor should
such abuse, unless the papers were pro- he say whether it devolved upon an Eng-
duced, and he did not know but the time lish ambassador to return from Brazil with
would soon come when many persons a Constitution in his pocket for Portugal,;
would call him a much calumniated per- but he was sure that Mr. Canning, when
san. He was far from knowing that such he found that Don Pedro was determined
language might not speedily be used in togivea Constitution toPortugal, was-on0
reference to Don Miguel by his best vincedofthe necessity of some interference;


{MARCI110}O


Affairs of Por~tugal. 122


121 .4yl;, 2 of, Portugal,.






{COMMONS Affairs of Portugal.


and he thought it wise and prudent to give
our support to the establishment of that
Constitution, in order to secure the good will
of the party there attached to liberty and
England. Mr. Canning, at the time,
very properly thought, that if the Con-
stitution were established with the aid
of England, the gratitude of the party
attached to it, for our exertions, would
render the connection between the two
countries still more intimate and advan-
tageous. By the countenance then afford-
ed to the constitutionalists, we induced
them to come forward and risk their lives
and fortunes in support of the Constitu-
tion; and by the policy which we had
since adopted, we delivered them up to be
massacred by Don Miguel, or punished
and degraded in any way that his malice
and cruelty could devise. We abandoned
them to be sacrificed in their own country,
or to be driven out of it; and what was
the species of refuge we afforded them ?
Upon that point, however, following the
example of the noble Lord, he would not
dwell, as the right hon. Gentleman oppo-
site (Mr. C. Grant) was pledged to bring
all the transactions relating to Terceira
before the House. He would only say,
that one mind appeared to pervade all
these transactions. But it was asked,
why suspect the conduct of England in
these transactions ? Why suspect it-who
could doubt it?
Who finds the heifer dead, and bleeding fresh,
And sees, fast by, a butcher with an axe,
But will suspect 'twas he that made the slaughter ?
If there were not grounds for suspicion,
why not let us know every thing relating
to these transactions? Peace, peace,"
was now the word. He trusted that this
country was not so fallen in condition and
in energy as to be afraid of war. The
Minister who would declare that this coun-
try durst not go to war did not show any
respect for the honour and character of
the country which were here so deeply
concerned; and if the mere word war"
were to silence all argument, suppress all
inquiries, and frighten the House and the
country, then must he say that the nation
was undone. Though greatly distressed
at present, not indeed in comparison to
other countries, but compared to herself
-to what she had been, and to what she
might be but for bad legislation-yet he
had no hesitation to give it as his opinion,
that in spite of all depressions and dis-
tresses, the country was as capable of


maintaining its honour as it ever had been.
When he heard English Gentlemen get up
in that House, and state that the country
was in such a condition that she must
avoid war at the expense of honour and
character, he could only say, that if such
were the state of England, the Ministers
who had reduced her to it deserved that
their heads should be brought to the block.
A great man, whose memory he respected
and admired, and than whom no man
could be a greater enemy to war-he
meant the late Mr. Fox-had well said,
that the cases in which war might be
disputable, were those which included a
war for aggrandizement, which was dis-
honest; a war of ambition, which was
indefensible; and a war of interest, which
was disgraceful; but he added, that when-
ever our honour was concerned, we should
be always ready to stand forward in its
defence, and that unless we did so, we
should be no longer fit to hold, and we
could not keep, our station in the eyes of the
world. Was a dread of war to induce us
to recognize that despot Don Miguel--
Monstrum nulla virtute redemptum ?
Was it come to this, that the least resist-
ance being exhibited on his part, we
should submit at once, and all because,
as the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Calcraft) had asserted, that we were
unable to go to war ? That was the
surest way to involve us in war; and if
we were not prepared at all times for war,
we could have nothing but a disgraceful,
miserable, and unprofitable peace. He
could not, however, believe that we were
unable to go to war, after what had been
said by the noble Duke at the head of
the Government in another place. Indeed,
the present Administration seemed to be
composed of Ministers who, like the fabled
monster with two mouths, spoke one way
in one place, and another way in another
place. The noble Duke said the country
was never more ready for war; the right
hon. Gentleman opposite said war was
impossible. Peace was his word. Eng-
land, it appeared, no longer dared to raise
her standard of glory aloft before the
world, and to bear her streamers against
the driving thunder-storm, and all the
winds of heaven; no, she must yield to
every wind that blows, and even to the
blast of Don Miguel ; and must be content
to put her honour in her pocket, because
the Minister declares that she could not


123 Afairs of Portugal.






125 Afairs of Portugal.


go to war. Mr. Canning was not the
man who would have adopted such policy,
or could have brought this country to such
a pass. If we are not able to go to war,
why, in the name of common sense, should
we retain our present immense military
establishments ?-why not at once
Doff the lion's hide
And hang a calfskin on those recreant limbs ?
If the heart was gone-and in truth the
head seemed not able to direct the heart
or hands to any noble enterprise--if that
were the case, the sooner we got rid of,
our enormous establishments the better.
If the Government were to be abject let it
also be frugal. If it were afraid to wield
its weapons, let it then lay themaside, nor
call on the country to pay for extravagant
armour that seemed to crush its wearer.
The right hon. Gentleman had argued the
question as one of pounds, shillings, and
pence. If that were the proper view of it,
what did we want with ambassadors ? and
why keep up an army of soldiers and
diplomatists ? If we were only to mind our
own shop, and not have any thing to do
with the affairs of our neighbours, we
should at least get a chance of saving our
money. He was sure that the people of
this country would support Ministers in
any wise course of measures for the support
of the national honour, and he should
be sorry if our timidity should lead to
stamp eternal infamy on England, which
it would do if Don Miguel were to be
acknowledged King of Portugal. He
trusted that the papers required by the
Motion would be produced, and the noble
Lord had made out such a case that he
did not see how they could be refused;
and he trusted that the noble Lord who
had done his country so much honour by
his exertions upon this subject, would
again bring it under the consideration of
the House, with a view to calling for some
specific resolution, that should serve to
redeem the honour of the country, to
wipe off from England the curses that were
then heaped on her, throughout the
Continent, and restore her to that high
and estimable situation she formerly en-
joyed, in the eyes of all Europe. The
noble Lord had made out a complete case
for the production of these papers, and
he did not see how they could be refused.
Mr. Calcraft explained. He never
meant to say, according to the extravagant
misrepresentation of the Member for West-
minster, that this country was not able to


go to war. He never conceived a doubt
on that point, if there were good grounds
and a just cause for going to war, but he
contended, and would still contend, that
no such grounds existed here.
Mr. Secretary Peel said, that in rising
upon this occasion, he felt it necessary to
ask for more than the usual indulgent
consideration of the House. He could
not but regret that it had been deemed
advisable by the noble Lord, no doubt for
good reasons, though he could not divine
their nature, to submit a motion of this
important description to the House, upon
a day which was usually devoted to relaxa-
tion, and upon which there was a distinct
arrangement and understanding among
men of all parties that no public business
whatever of any consequence should ever
be brought forward. His own time had
been so much and so incessantly occupied,
in consequence of the lateness of the
debates during the last two days, that he
really conceived he had some claim upon
the noble Lord's forbearance, and that he
had some right to expect that such a
motion as this should nothave been brought
forward upon this day, which was a sort
of parliamentary dies non. He had been
detained in the House, by public business,
till four o'clock the preceding morning.
He was afterwards obliged to devote a
considerable portion of the day to the
transaction of public business connected
with the office over which he presided,
and which could not be postponed: and
he felt, therefore, that he entered under
great personal disadvantages upon the
discussion of this question. While his
noble friend who brought forward the
Motion had an opportunity to select his
points of attack, he had not considered it
necessary to communicate previously to
Government, and he therefore was called
upon, on the part of Government, to enter
upon an explanation of transactions that
were spread over a wide extent of surface,
which embraced a considerable period of
time, and which did not particularly relate
to the peculiar department over which he
presided. He mentioned these circum-
stances, in order that the House might
make due allowance, should he fail in
giving satisfactory answers to all the
accusations of his noble friend, though he
trusted, notwithstanding the disadvantages
under which he laboured, that he should
be able distinctly to refute all his insinua-
tions and charges. In doing so, however,


{MARCH 10}


Affairs of Portugal.







{COMMONS} Afairs of Portugal.


he hoped also that allowance would be tion. He conceived that of all the just
made for the peculiar situation in which causes of war, the vindication of the
he was placed, owing to his inability to honour of a country was that which was
refer publicly,atpresent, to the documents most just. He could conceive few cases
and particular facts of the case, which in which mere considerations of interest
would furnish a complete refutation of the could justify a country for involving itself
noble Lord's charges, And here he could in war. He concurred most cordially
not avoid declaring, that in the whole with the doctrine of Mr. Fox, that the
course of his public life he had never best vindication which a country could
found his private feelings clash so much plead for embarking in war was, that it
with those public considerations from was necessary to the vindication of the
which he could not, consistently with his national honour; but making a concession
views of the public interest, depart, on of all these points to the hon. Baronet, he
this occasion. If he could refer to all the still thought that it was matter for legiti-
papers connected with those transactions, mate inquiry, whether, when we were
they would furnish a most triumphant invited to enter into a war, there was any
answer to the charges of his noble friend: engagement, expressed or implied, made by
they would afford a full explanation of the the country; any formal or moral obliga-
whole case, and they would show why his tion; any consideration of interest which
noble friend had selected some of those required it to involve itself in that war, or
transactions for animadversion, and why to hold that menacing language, which, if
he had prudently abstained from referring it were disregarded, left us no alternative
to others. He was confident that even but to follow it up by the commencement
without those documents, he should be of war. He did not expect that either his
able satisfactorily to vindicate the conduct noble friend or the hon. Baronet would
of his Majesty's Government, and of the conceive him to be arguing the question
course which, as a Minister of the Crown, unfairly, if, after making these admissions,
he thought it most proper to advise in he proceeded to contend that it was our
reference to the interests of that country, interest not to involve ourselves in war,
with the administration of the affairs except for some great and paramount
of which he was charged. The hon. consideration. He thought that his noble
Baronet, the Member for Westminster, friend would not consider him as stating
had made a speech which could easily be his argument unfairly, when he assumed
made, and it would be very easy for any it to be this :-that his noble friend was of
man to make, if it were only conceded to opinion, first, that there were certain
him that he had the right to make, not engagements in existence which compelled
only his own speech, but the speech of his this country to pursue a different course
opponent to which he meant to reply. It from that which it actually had pursued.
was easy to make charges against his His noble friend did not state himself to
Majesty's Ministers, and then call upon be an advocate for war, but without being
them to answer them, when the expres- guilty of any unfairness, he must say that
sions to which they had reference were his arguments led to the conclusion that
never used by them. His right hon. we must havewar. If war were necessary,
friend, the Pay-master of the Forces, let us have it; but if it were not necessary,
had however sufficiently answered for let us not conjure up such a phantom to
himself. When, he would ask, did the deter men from following the dictates of
hon. Baronet hear from that side of the reason. His noble friend, he repeated,
House that the country was unable to did not demand that we should go to war;
sustain the charges of a war? What he was of opinion that we ought to have
Gentleman upon the Ministerial Benches done something different, though he did
had ever said that the country ought to not state what that something different
submit to dishonour, or to put up with should have been; he said, indeed, that
degradation, or abandon its interests, from we ought to have assumed a different tone
an apprehension of war, or from a con- in the language which we addressed to the
sciousness that she was not in a condition Government of Portugal, and enforced
to bear its expenses ? But the hon. certain rights which we possessed by treaty,
Baronet had assumed this to be the lan- and which we had failed to enforce. His
guage of Ministers; and this assumption noble friend had likewise said, for he had,
made, he proceeded to argue in its refuta- i taken down his words. That we have


12" Affairs ofPortugal.







shrunk from solemn and public engage- cited expectations there which we were
ments, that we have abandoned to exile, bound to realize. If that were so, how
to beggary, to dungeons, and to death, was it to be reconciled with the language
thousands of men, whom a knowledge of held by Mr. Canning ? Mr. Canning had
those engagements might justly have led not disapproved of Sir Charles Stuart's
to count upon our protection." Now, if conduct in bringing the Charter from the
he were not much mistaken, he should be Brazils to Portugal; as to the granting
able to show, that if we had basely shrunk of that Charter, England could not be
fromour engagements,his Majesty'spresent responsible, and he would therefore leave
advisers were not the only persons who it out of consideration; but because Mr.
ought to bear the disgrace of such mis- Canning had not disapproved of Sir C.
conduct,-that if we had failed to enforce Stuart's conduct, his noble friend argued
our claims on Don Miguel, the noble Lord that expectations were raised in Portugal
and his friends were equally implicated in which we were bound in honour to fulfil.
such failure ; for the period when the Now that was not the view taken by Mr.
execution of such engagements, if such Canning of the consequences which were
engagements there were, could have been likely to arise from the Charter's having
most effectually compelled was when his been conveyed to Lisbon by a Portuguese
noble friend himself held office under the agent, who happened to be a British sub-
Crown, and at that time he had never ject. The directions which Mr. Canning
heard from his noble friend any of those sent to Sir C. Stuart were, that he having
remonstrances which he had made so left the Charter at Lisbon with the par-
vehemently that night. He would admit ties who were commissioned to receive it,
to his noble friend, that even supposing should return immediately home to pre-
that there were no express engagements, vent any such impression from being
there might be moral obligations on the made, either upon the Portuguese people,
country which ought to have the same or upon other nations. That was evident
force. He would, in the course of his from the language of Mr. Canning's de-
speech, consider that question fully, and spatch to Sir W. A'Court. On the 22nd
would inquire whether there were any en- of July, 1826, he wrote thus to Sir W.
gagements, expressed or implied, requiring A'Court: It is the anxious wish of his
our interference with the government of Majesty's Government, that nothing may
Portugal, or whether there were any moral have been done by Sir Charles Stuart, whe-
obligation possessing the force of a formal their under the commission of the Emperor
contract. Hemustherestopto vindicatethe Don Pedro, or at the solicitation of the
memory of his late right hon. friend, Mr. Portuguese authorities, which can beliable,
Canning, from the imputations which had either in Portugal, or throughout Europe,
been thrown on it that night, if the assertions to be misconstrued as an authoritative in-
of the hon. Baronet opposite were well terference in the internal concerns of Por-
founded. He must contend that the tugal. Should any thing of that sort un-
whole of Mr. Canning's language in that luckily have occurred, his Majesty's Go-
House, and the whole of his written com- vernment relies confidently on your Ex-
munications with foreign ministers, which cellency for doing away the impression
were on record, contradicted the assertion, which it would be calculated to create, by
that there was any thing either in the a discreet use of the explanations and de-
mode in which the Portuguese charter was clarations contained in my despatches
granted, or in the mode in which it was to your Excellency, and in those of which
conveyed to Lisbon, imposing any obliga- I have transmitted copies for your informa-
tion upon England to maintain it in full tion." Again, on the same day, Mr.
and undiminished integrity. If our troops Canning wrote thus to Sir C. Stuart:-
were, as it was contended, sent to Portu- It is the desire and determination of his
gal to interfere with the internal institu- Majesty's Government to avoid, as far as
tions of that country- possible, the appearance of any direct in-
Sir F. Burdett intimated that he had terfcrenceofBritishagencyin theestablish-
not said so. ment ofthe neworder ofthingsin Portugal."
Mr. Peel understood the noble Lord IHe did not suppose that any Gentleman
and the hon. Baronet to have both said, would contend, that because Mr. Canning
that the circumstances under which the enjoined Sir C. Stuart to avoid the ap-
Charter had been carried to Portugal ex- pearance of British interference, he in-
VOL. XXIII. F


129 Affairs ofPortug~al.


{MARCH 10}


AffairsofPortug al. 1,30






Affairs of Portugal. 132


tended to authorize him to carry on that
interference in a secret manner; by no
means : Mr. Canning intended to deny
the existence of any desire on the part of
the British Government to interfere in the
establishment of the new order of things
in Portugal. Mr. Canning expressly said,
that he founded his approbation of the
Charter on the implied assent of the peo-
ple of Portugal to it; and in a despatch
dated the 17th of July, 1826, and addressed
to Sir W. A'Court, he says-" It appears
to us, upon the whole, that the best
chance of a safe and tranquil issue to the
present extraordinary crisis in Portugal
will be to be found in an acceptance (as
immediate as may be suitable with the im-
portance of the measure) of the Charter
of Don Pedro, coupled as it is with his
abdication of the throne. Any other
course must, as it appears to us, be full
of danger." But what did Mr. Canning
say afterwards?-" But if, nevertheless,
another course shall be pursued, we shall
not be the less anxious for its peaceable
and happy issue, than if it were one which
we had ourselves advised." He thought
that he had now satisfactorily shown that
Mr. Canning had never admitted that he
was responsible for the establishment of the
Charter in Portugal; and that the bring-
iig of it to Lisbon by Sir C. Stuart, who,
though a British subject, was a Portuguese
agent, was no claim upon England to sup-
port that Constitution against the wishes
of the majority of the Portuguese nation.
The next point which he had to notice in
the speech of his noble friend referred to
the protocol of Vienna. His noble friend,
and after him the hon. Baronet, had both
argued that because the signature of a
British Minister was attached to that pro-
tocol, we had contracted an engagement
to see that the engagements into which
Don Miguel had entered were faithfully
observed. As the House had been told
that this Motion had been made not so
much with a view of obtaining any new
documents, as with a view of casting a
censure upon his Majesty's Government,
he hoped that the House would, although
it was an unprecedented night for debate,
listen to him with patience whilst he en-
tered at some length on the defence of
Government. The circumstances under
which we became parties to the protocol of
Vienna were very fully explained in a de-
spatch sent by Prince Metternich to Prince
Esterhazy, the Austrian Ambassador to


this country, and by him communicated
to this Government. Hon. Members would
find it at page 29 of these papers. He
could assure the House that no instruc-
tions had been given to Lord Cowley, the
British Ambassador at Vienna, to be pre-
sent at the conference between Don Miguel
and Prince Esterhazy,and his Lordship only
joined the conferenceat the desire of Prince
Metternich. The intention of Don Pedro
to constitute Don Miguel his lieutenant
in Portugal was known at Vienna, and
was communicated by Prince Melternich
to Don Miguel. In consequence of the
excitation which then unfortunately pre-
vailed in the minds of the people of Por-
tugal, it was thought necessary that Don
Miguel should go forthwith from Vienna to
that country, Prince Metternich pro-
posed to him to go thither by way of Paris
and London. To this plan Don Miguel
expressed great reluctance ; and this was
the manner in which Prince Metternich
explained the matters on which he invited
the British Ambassador to a conference,
" Seeing ourselves thus arrested in our
progress by the unexpected resistance we
had met with from this young Prince, I
determined at once, confidentially, and in
the fullest detail, to make the British am-
bassador (whom I had previously informed
of the object and end of my conferences
with the Portuguese plenipotentiaries) ac-
quainted with all that had passed be-
tween them and me, and between his Ma-
jesty and the Infant. I afterwards in-
vited Sir Henry Wellesley to meet those
gentlemen and me, to take together into
consideration the means which we could
yet adopt, in order to overcome the re-
sistance of the Infant, and in the event four
not succeeding, to concert such measures,
as, with the consent of his Government,
from which we were quite determined not
to separate ourselves in this affair, it might
be necessary to adopt without delay, in
order not to prolong such a dangerous
state of things in Portugal." Such were
the circumstances, he repeated, under
which Lord Cowley had become a party
to that protocol. But Lord Cowley never
I i...1 to see that Don Miguel should
perform the engagements into which he
had entered towards his brother and to-
wards his countrymen. He never gave
any guarantee for the execution of those
engagements. He was nothing more than
a witness to their having been made; and
thus he thought that there was an end to


131 Affairs of Por~tugal.


f COMMONS}






{MARCII 10} Affairs of Portugal.


the assertion that Lord Cowley, and
through him the British Government were
a party to the arrangements which Don
Miguel formally made with his brother
and with his people. His noble friend had
likewise stated, that there was a protocol in
London, signed by Don Miguel previous
to his departure for Lisbon, and that
such protocol must have been fixed on
before Don Miguel's arrival here, as it was
alluded to in a despatch written about the
same time from Lisbon by Sir F. Lamb. He
did not feel himself at liberty to state to
the House the contents of that protocol;
for in arguing on official documents, of
which lie had determined to refuse the pro-
duction, he did not think it right to de-
scribe their contents. Whenever these
transactions should be brought to a final
issue, that protocol should be published,
and then his noble friend would see that
there was no engagement, either express or
implied, compelling us to prevent Don
Miguel from acting ashe had done. Much
stress had been laid, in the course of the
debate, on the appearance of the British
troops in Portugal when Don Miguel first
landed at Lisbon, and afterwards when he
commenced his violation of the rights of
his brother, and of his niece. He believed
this to be the most important part of his
noble friend's speech, and he knew that it
was that which had created the greatest
impression on the House. His noble
friend had stated, that the appearance of
our troops in Portugal was a direct inter-
ference in its internal affairs. It mat-
tered not whether it was intentional or not,"
he said, "but a direct interference it cer-
tainly was." It was true that the British
troops were at Lisbon when Don Miguel
arrived. It was true that instructions were
given to our commanders to avoid inter-
fering in the internal dissensions of Por-
tugal, with this proviso, that in case of
necessity, they were to grant protection to
the members of the royal family. "No-
thing" said the hon. Gentleman opposite,
" could have been more easy than for us
to have retained possession of the forts on
the Tagus," and on that point he agreed
with the hon. Gentleman, that if we were
right to go to war with Portugal to support
the Constitution, or to control Don Miguel,
the time for going to war, or for using
those menaces, which, if disregarded, left
no alternative but war, was when Lisbon
was occupied by our forces. Could there
be any question upon that point ? The


period during which we had 4,000 or
5,000 efficient troops in Portugal, was the
period when it would have been most ex-
pedient for us to interfere; but when we
omitted that opportunity, and directed our
troops to withdraw entirely from Portugal,
we abandoned all right of interference for
the future. It was only right that he
should state to the House that the British
minister had withheld the order for the
withdrawal of the troops, contrary to his
instructions, but in conformity with what
he considered the interests of his country.
The British Government, in the instructions
which they had given him, had maintained
the position laid down by Mr. Canning-
that the troops were not sent to take any
part in the internal dissensions of Portugal;
and thus they were allowed to stay at
Lisbon when Don Miguel arrived, and also
when he assumed the royal signature, and
usurped the throne of his brother. The
British minister, from good motives, disre-
garded his instructions, acting therein
with such perfect propriety as to receive for
it the approbation of the Government at
home. His reason for disregarding them
was his desire to ascertain whether there
was any engagement binding us to correct
the extraordinary conduct of Don Miguel,
or whether the interest of the country re-
quired that a menacing tone, or even war,
should be adopted towards him and his
intrusive government. All this took
place, he ought to observe, after several
appearances of an intention, on the part
of Don Miguel, to assume the royal au-
thority, and to place himself upon the
throne. The decree for convening the
Cortes at last came out, having the royal
signature, instead of the signature of the
King's lieutenant attached to it. The
question, whether it should interfere or
not, then came regularly before the British
Government, and yet, though such was
the question brought before it, the order
that every British soldier in Portugal
should be withdrawn was repeated, and, if
he were not mistaken, the letter which
contained that order bore the signature
of William Huskisson. Thus, if the King's
Government had basely shrunk from the
performance of its engagements, it was at
the very time that it could have interfered
with the greatest effect; and if it were
base to shrink from the performance of
such engagements, the King's present ad-
visers were not the only persons obnoxious
to that imputation. There was another
F2


133 Affiairs ofPortugal.






Afairs of Portugal 136


circumstance, to which it was painful even
to allude, but to which he undoubtedly
must allude, because it formed one of the
combination of circumstances which led his
noble friend to suppose that we were under
engagement to make Don Miguel perform
his contract towards his brother and his
people, and that was the oath which Don
Miguel had taken before the Emperor of
Austria, the King of England, and the
British Government, to stand faithfully by
the Constitution. He admitted that such
a promise was given in the most solemn,
and that it had been violated in the most
shameful, manner. God forbid that he
should say one word in vindication of Don
Miguel's conduct upon thathead. He was
well aware of the alliance which his noble
friend was sure to form with the sympathies
of all who heard him, when he had to deal
with the engagements of a person upon
whose character such reflections could be
cast, and cast with justice. He was also
well aware that his noble friend had availed
himself largely of that natural sympathy
which he was certain to excite when he
pleaded in behalf of that young person
whom we admitted to be the legitimate
Queen of Portugal, and whose right Don
Miguel had usurped. He (Mr. P.) was
bound, as a Minister, to consult the great
interests committed to his charge, and to
decide on the merits of the question, not
by listening to appeals to his feelings, but
by pursuing the dictates of reason and ex-
pediency. It was true, then, that Don
Miguel had disregarded the oath which he
had sworn to his brother. What were
the circumstances under which that oath
was disregarded,-how far the violation of
it was in compliance with the prevailing
feeling of Portugal,-were points into
which he declined to inquire, for he was
not prepared to vindicate them. He had,
however, heard it whispered that the same
circumstances had happened before in
the same family, and they might therefore
entitle him to some allowance, though he
admitted that they could not palliate his
oblivion of the most sacred engagements.
Honourable Members could not have for-
gotten that the Brazils had been separated
from Portugal some years before in nearly
the same manner as Portugal had recently
been separated from the Brazils. He was
afraid that it somehow or other had hap-
pened that Don Pedro had contracted
towards his father engagements similar tc
those which Don Miguel had contracted


towards Don Pedro. He was afraid that
it likewise had happened that Don Pedro,
relying on the support of the people,
had violated his engagements towards his
father as decidedly as Don Miguel had
since violated them towards Don Pedro.
He had some reason to believe that when
Don Pedro was administering the Govern-
ment of the Brazils in the name of his
father,hetook the following oath in a let-
ter he wrote. John, King of Portugal:-I
protest to your Majesty that I never will
be a perjurer. That if the people of the
Brazils were mad enough to think of elect-
ing me Emperor, the election should not
be until I and all the Portuguese in the
Brazils were cut to pieces, and that I
swear all this faithfully to your Majesty,
writing in my own blood, this oath to be
faithful to your Majesty, the Portuguese
nation, and the Constitution." Circum-
stances arose shortly afterwards, which
proved the value which Don Pedro set upon
this oath. The prevailing feeling of the
Brazils was so strong in favour of erecting
the Brazils into an independent state, and
of separating them from Portugal, that
Don Pedro felt that he had no alternative
but to yield to that feeling, and to declare
himself Emperor, if he wished to preserve
any amicable relations with Portugal.
It was true that the cases of Don Pedro
and Don Miguel were not analogous; for
in the case of Don Pedro there was not even
the shadow of an obligation made with
England ; still there was enough of resem-
blance between them to show that Britain
ought not altogether to disregard the way
in which such engagements had been vio-
lated by another member of the royal
family of Braganza. There was another
argument of his noble friend, which might
appear to possess some importance-" You
repudiate," said his noble friend, all in-
terference now, though I have shown that
all your former course has been a course
of interference. I claim your adherence,
not to your exception, but to your rule.
You have interfered often before in the
affairs of Portugal, all I ask of you is to
interfere again now." Now this, he begged
leave to say, was a fallacious argument.
He admitted that England had often inter-
fered with the affairs of Portugal. The
Relations of England to Portugal were so
peculiar, that it was impossible for Eng-
land not to interfere in them. We had
guaranteed in repeated treaties the inde-
Spendence of Portugal; and that guarantee


135 Affairs of Portugal.


JCOMMONSJ







Affairs of Portugal. 13S


gave us a right to interfere in the manage-
ment of her affairs. His noble friend had
said, You interfered at Vienna about the
separation of the Brazils from Portugal,
and also about the appointment of Don
Miguel to be Lieutenant of that kingdom :
why do you not interfere for the restoration
of the Charter?" He (Mr. Peel) would
tell his noble friend shortly why. We in-
terfered in the case of the Brazils, because
under our mediation a negotiation had
been entered into for separating the Brazils
from Portugal, and for placing the crowns
of the two countries on different heads.
When Don Pedro, by the death of his
father, united the two Crowns on his own
head, we were compelled, by the treaty
which had been signed under our media-
tion, to interfere in order to compel him to
make his election of the Crown which he
would prefer to wear. The treaty of 1825
rendered it necessary for us to call on Don
Pedro to fulfil his obligations under it,
and to separate Portugal and the Brazils
for ever. Such interference as this might
possibly be found by his noble friend in
numerous cases; but where could his
noble friend find any interference on our
part with the internal regulations of the
Government of Portugal ? We had been
connected with Portugal for four centuries,
and in that time many changes had oc-
curred in the form of government of both
countries. There were treaties formed
with Portugal in the reign of Charles 1st,
and also in the time of the Commonwealth,
and by those treaties we were bound to
nothing more than maintain her indepen-
dence against all assailants. When the
Cortes met in 1822, and claimed our inter-
ference in their behalf, what was the an-
swer given to their application by Mr.
Canning? It was this-" We have under-
taken to guarantee, and are ready at all
hazards to guarantee, the independence of
Portugal from foreign powers, but we have
nothing to do with, and we decline to in-
terfere in, its internal regulations." He
therefore said, that there was no moral ob-
ligation, having the force of a formal
obligation, arising from our past interfer-
ence in the affairs of Portugal, which
called upon us to interfere at present
for the restoration of the Charter. But
then came another question,-did any
considerations of interest compel us to in-
terfere otherwise than we hitherto had
interfered ? He really did not understand
the course which his noble friend wished


the Government to pursue. We hadtaken
every other alternative but war, or the
menace of war. We had withdrawn our
Minister from Portugal some time ago,
and he was still absent. The English
Government had, as was generally known,
become the guarantee for the payment of
a loan made in this countryto Don Miguel.
The money was sent off to Lisbon, but as
soon as Don Miguel refused to take the
oath of fidelity to his brother and to the
Charter, the British Minister sent back
the first instalment of the loan, which had
actually reached the port of Lisbon. On
the affairs of Terceira, he did not intend
to speak, for it appeared that they were to
form the subject of another motion. He
knew not to what acts, save those which
he had mentioned, England could have
resorted, short of war, or the application
of such menaces as, if disregarded, would
render war a natural consequence. Now,
was it for the interest of England, he
would ask, to go to war for the purpose of
compelling Don Miguel to perform his
engagements, or of enforcing on a reluct-
ant people a Constitution for which they
had no predilection ? Under what cir-
cumstances, he would ask,was that Consti-
tution granted? The House had been
told that it was the duty of England to
range herself on the side of free constitu-
tions, and against despotic governments;
and that she ought, upon that principle, to
throw her sword into the balance of parties
which were now dividing Portugal. In
plain English, the argument of the hon.
Baronet, and of his noble friend, when
stripped of its dazzling rhetoric, was no-
thing more than this-" We ought to go
to war for the Portuguese Constitution."
Now, whatever the feelings of the people
of England might be at present regarding
the propriety of such a war, he would
venture to predict that two months would
not elapse after its commencement, before
the supplies for prosecuting it would be
withheld. Was, then, that Constitution
granted with such deliberation and consi-
deration of circumstances as ought to pre-
cede the grant of a form of government ? It
was true that that Constitution emanated
from a legitimate source. But under what
circumstances? Don Pedro received intel-
ligence of the death of Don John on the
26th of April. On the 30th of April he
had an interview with Sir Charles Stuart,
when mention was first made of the Portu-
guese Constitution. Sir C. Stuart, in his


17 Affairs of Piortuganl.


{MARCH 10}






139 Affairs of Portugal.


despatch to the British Government on
the subject, said, he produced the pro-
ject of a Constitution for Portugal, to the
compilation of which he had devoted the
greater part"-of what would the House
suppose ? Of his life ? No ; Sir Charles
Stuart added, of a week." This was the
manner in which Don Pedro had framed a
Constitution by which a country 2,000 or
3,000 miles from the Brazils was to be
governed. Before this country resolved
to go to war, in support of such a Consti-
tution, it would at least be material to
ascertain how far the affections of the
people of Portugal were enlisted in its
favour. On the 1st of March, 1828, Sir
Frederick Lamb wrote, in a despatch to
the British Government-" Don Miguel
is constantly assailed with entreaties to
make himself King. That the assumption
of sovereign power by Don Miguel was
likely to be popular with the majority of
the inhabitants of Portugal." In the course
of the same month Sir F. Lamb stated, in
another despatch-" No party here of any
consequence attaches the least value to
the Charter." These facts being perfectly
undeniable, he implored the House to
reflect upon the consequences of forcing
upon a reluctant people a Constitution,
however good in itself. It should not be
forgotten that an effort had been made in
Portugal to oppose the assumption of
power by Don Miguel. The army aided
that attempt, all the disciplined force of
the country was in its favour, and yet the
attempt signally failed. The failure of
this attempt to dispossess Don Miguel of
his usurped authority warranted the as-
sumption that we should meet with no
cordial support from the people of Portu-
gal, if we entered upon a war in support
of the Constitution. It was said that Brazil
had proposed to us to enter into a treaty,
the object of which was to dispossess Don
Miguel of his power and re-establish the
Constitution ; but it was quite evident that
this would be merely a nominal treaty on
the part of Brazil, and that the whole
burthen of the war, if it were undertaken,
would fall upon us. Besides, there were
good reasons for supposing that even if the
government of Brazil were inclined to de-
fray its share of the undertaking, the
people of that country would not consent
to such a sacrifice in favour of Portuguese
interests exclusively. On the ground,
therefore, that there was nothing which
called upon this country, in vindication of


its honour, to go to war, or to pursue any
other course than that which had been
pursued, on the ground that the interests
of the country, apart from considerations
of honour, were opposed to war, he would
resist the Motion, the object of which was
to express an opinion in favour of another
line of policy. He wished, on his own
account personally, and as connected with
the Administration, that the papers moved
for could be produced; but in the present
state of our relations with Portugal, he
was bound to state his opinion, that it
would not be for the interest of England,
it would not be for the interest of Portugal,
it would not be for the interest of that
party with which the sympathies of his
noble friend were so justly and so honour-
ably engaged. On these grounds he was
bound to state, on his responsibility as a
Minister of the Crown, that it would not
be wise to produce the documents at the
present moment. The noble Lord had
stated, that the papers already produced
on the subject were garbled extracts. He
denied that most distinctly. He trusted
that the House would not be imposed
upon by whatever they might have heard
with respect to the predilections of his
Majesty's Government for arbitrary power
and despotic institutions, and of its in-
difference to free institutions, and to the
fate of those who had been engaged in
maintaining them; he hoped, he repeated,
that the House would not allow itself to be
led away by vague accusations, that
Government was insensible to the painful
situation of those persons who had in-
volved themselves in difficulties from their
adherence to the free institutions of Por-
tugal. He could state with truth that
Ministers were at the present moment
labouring earnestly and solicitously for the
protection of the interests of those un-
happy persons, and he could assure the
House that one of his main grounds for
withholding his assent from the Motion
before them, was his deliberate conviction
that the unreserved communication of
documents would not promote their in-
terests. An attempt had been made to
raise a prejudice against the Government
by asserting that Ministers had insisted
that Don Pedro should give his daughter
in marriage to Don Miguel. He could
only meet that positive assertion by as
positive a denial. The British Govern-
ment had never attempted to press the
marriage upon Don Pedro since he declared


COMMONS}


Affairs of Portug~al. 140






141 Affairs of Portugal.


his insuperable and very natural repug-
nance to the union. Indeed, all commu-
nications with Don Pedro on that subject
had been made rather with the view of
ascertaining his sentiments than any other
object. After the explanation he had
offered, he was sure the House would bear
him out in the assertion that the British
Government had done nothing to disgrace
the honour of England. The Government
professed no friendship for arbitrary power,
it expressed no approbation of the course
of conduct which Don Miguel had pur-
sued. He claimed permission to share in
the sympathy which was felt for those in-
dividuals who were suffering on account
of their attachment to free institutions,
and their adherence to the cause of Don
Pedro, whom they considered their legiti-
mate monarch; but he trusted it was
possible to reconcile that feeling with
obedience to the dictates of calm and sober
judgment. He thought it was the true
policy of England to maintain peace as
long as it could be maintained consistently
with honour, and not for one hour longer
than it could be so maintained. In the
present instance he was of opinion that the
maintenance of peace was perfectly con-
sistent with the honour and interests of
England; and let the judgment of the
House be what it might, he, for one, never
would be a party to a vote, which would
have the effect of contravening the policy
which the Government had hitherto pur-
sued, and of which he believed the House
would, at no remote period, have cause to
repent [cheers].
Mr. Huskisson said, that he was well
aware that that day was not ordinarily
devoted to debate a great public question ;
but it having been admitted that his noble
friend had no alternative but to bring for-
ward his Motion on that day, or forego it
altogether, that was a full vindication of
his course of proceeding. It had always
been admitted that one of the highest pri-
vileges of that House was to superintend
the conduct of the Ministers, and never
was there a time, perhaps, in which the
exercise of that privilege had been so long
suspended. He had reason to fear that
ere long the country might regret that the
House had, on the subject of our foreign
relations, neglected its duty. Perhaps
that might be attributed to the satisfaction
which the conduct of the Ministers had
given when they sacrificed, on a great
public question, their individual opinions


to the voice of the country. For that they
bad received and deserved praise; and he
thought if the House would take the same
trouble in enforcing a different line of
foreign policy, that it had taken to im-
prove our domestic relations, similar bene-
ficial results would arise. He regretted
to say, that while our domestic policy met
with general approbation, our foreign
policy was as generally condemned, not
only in this country, but by all the enlight-
ened people of Europe. He could easily
shew sufficient grounds to justify that
general opinion, were he to examine the
foreign policy of Ministers during the last
ten years. But he would not travel over
so wide a field. He would content him-
sell' with remarking, that our foreign
policy had altered fGr the worse since the
period of Mr. Canning's death. Since
that national calamity, for in his opinion
the death of that great man was a national
calamity, the country had been losing
ground in the estimation of foreign powers,
and her name, then revered in every corner
of the world, was now little respected.
The confidence of Mr. Canning had arisen
from his conviction that his line of po,.cy
was equally adverse to that faction-that,
he believed, incurable faction--which
desired that every thing should return to
the condition in which it was before the
French Revolution, and that other faction,
not less incurable, which was ever fau-
ning the flames of revolution, and ever
striving again to abolish the sacred marks
of property, and to disturb that.happy
state of peace and tranquillity which had
been the lot of Europe since 1815. What-
ever might be the defects of the general
arrangements among the great Powers of
Europe, made at that period, they had
certainly preserved it in peace, and the
nations had become so sensible of its
blessings, that the statesman must be little
less than insane who sought to revive the
calamities of war. For himself, he must
declare, that he abjured all community of
feeling with those who wished again to
disturb the repose of Europe. Nothing
but the preservation of national honour, or
of national independence, could justify a
renewal of hostilities. It had been truly
stated, that Mr. Canning had no share in
the formation of the Portuguese Constitu-
tion, and the fact was so notorious, that
no arguments were required to prove it.
But that Mr. Canning had never interfered
concerning this Constitution was a, very


Affairs of Portugal. 142


{MARCH 10}








different proposition. He was able to House see how that statement agreed with
bear his personal testimony to the feel- the facts. In adverting to the present
ings of Mr. Canning on the subject of point in dispute, he was not about to betray
the Portuguese Constitution; for he hap- any information which he might have ob-
pened to be in his company when tidings trained while holding a place in his Ma-
were transmitted from Paris of that Con- jesty's Council. He would state nothing
stitution having been brought to Europe but what he had heard from others-he
by Sir C. Stuart, and the mode in which would state nothing except what had been
it had been received in Portugal, and the made a matter of the most perfect noto-
vexation that right hon. Gentleman ex- riety-nothing but what had been supplied
pressed on the occasion was extreme. He from documents already published-and
took great pains to make it known that the House would see that his right hon.
he had not advised the giving of that Con- friend had not stated all the facts.
stitution, but when it had been given, he Nothing could be more distinct and ex-
did not refuse it his countenance. Con- plicit than the statement put forth, that it
sidering who was the bearer of that to was the first object of the British Go-
Europe, and considering the activity of vernment to establish peace between the
Sir C. Stuart who was stated, in a despatch different branches of the House of Bra-
of Sir W. A'Court, to be solicitous for its ganza, and to maintain the Constitution
adoption, it was a very natural inference sent to Portugal by Don Pedro. Of that
on the part of the Portuguese, that this principle Sir H. Wellesley was perfectly
country was anxious to support it. In apprised, and nothing, he confessed, could
the autumn after it had been sent to exceed the surprise with which he heard
Europe, it was acknowledged by persons his right hon. friend the President of the
of all classes in Portugal; and when a Board of Trade give a denial to such a
faction, supported by Spain, or as it was statement. He should be able to show,
called by Mr. Canning, a furious fana- from documents already before the public,
tical cabal swaying the King of Spain that the British Ambassador at Vienna
in his own Cabinet, and supplied with was instructed, and did all in his power,
arms and stores from thence, made its to bring about the maintenance of the
appearance in opposition to the Constitu- Portuguese Constitution of Don Pedro.
tion, a force was sent by Great Britain to It was not denied in any quarter that that
protect Portugal from the invasion. After Constitution had an advocate in the nego-
such conduct, it was in vain to state that tiations at Vienna: did any one suppose
we did not undertake to defend the Con- that that advocate was Prince Metternich?
stitution against foreign enemies: from Which was it more likely, that he or Sir
that moment the connection between Great H. Wellesley would act the part of advo-
Britain and Portugal was identified with cate upon such an occasion ? When he
the maintenance of those free institutions, heard that our ambassador was passive
and from that moment Portugal was ne- and not active in those negotiations, he
cessarily divided into two parties-British could not help referring to the Protocol of
and Spanish. He could further assert, the 23rd of October. He found that set
that from the moment our ambassador at out with stating, that after the Protocol
Vienna signed the Protocol concerning of the last conference had been read and
the government of Portugal, from that approved, the British Ambassador an-
moment we were as much bound by his nounced that he had a confidential and
acts as if his Majesty's Government had important communication to make."
sent out special instructions to him upon What, the House might naturally inquire,
that subject, and that he had commu- was that important and confidential com-
nicated the fact of having received those munication ? Nothing less than that
instructions to the other parties engaged it had been discovered that persons at
in the negotiation. Yet his right hon. Paris and Madrid had organized a plan
friend had referred to the papers con- to overthrowthe liberal institutions of Por-
nected with that negotiation, and had tugal, and for the purpose of indisposing
contended from them, that in consequence Don Miguel to actfairly and honestly by the
of Sir Henry Wellesley having received Constitution sentby hisbrother; and there-
no instructions from his Majesty's Go- fore it would be necessary to call on Don
vernment, therefore that Government was Miguel to pledge himself strongly in sup-
not' bound by his acts. Now let the port of that Constitution, Thus, then, it


AffaAP~irs of~ Portugagl.


{COMMONS}


Affairs of Portuganl. 144






Affairs of Portugal. 146


was obvious that England had, in every
part of those conferences, maintained the
attitude and position of an advocate and
supporter of the Portuguese Constitution,
and had given the people of Portugal
reason to believe that those amongst them
who also supported it should have the
benefit of her assistance, countenance,
and support. Soon after this Don Mi-
guel wrote to his brother, Don Pedro, and
in that Letter pledged himself to govern
according to the Constitution; he also
wrote a letter of the same purport to his
sister. Then came his proclamation to the
Portuguese people, containing similar as-
surances, and last, though to the Parlia-
ment of Great Britain, not the least im-
portant, there was the letter of Don Mi-
guel to our own Sovereign-there was the
contract made with the people of England
through their Monarch-a contract made
in the face of Europe, and of which the
people of Europe looked for the perform-
ance to the moral weight and character of
the English Government and the English
nation. All Europe, he would affirm, was
led to place confidence in Don Miguel, in
consequence of the intervention of Eng-
land, and the communication which he
had had with that power. He would not
add to these circumstances all the per-
sonal honours which Don Miguel re-
ceived in this country, in consequence of
the apparent fairness of his conduct, and
which further proved the feelings of our
Government with reference to the Portu-
guese Constitution. But he desired the
House to remember the Protocol of the
12th of January, to which it was said that
the Plenipotentiary of Don Miguel was
no party; but England was a party
to it, and Austria was a party to it,
and the subsequent acts of Don Miguel
made him a party to it; yet, from his
acts immediately after his return to Por-
tugal, it could not be doubted that he had
previously plotted and planned for the
abandonment and destruction of that Con-
stitution altogether, and for the establish-
ment of a system directly its reverse.
Don Miguel left this country accompanied
by the British ambassador, and supported
by a British force. He arrived at Lisbon,
and before six or seven days had elapsed,
he manifested the fullest disposition to
reject the Constitution, to disregard the
solemn pledges he had given, and to break
the sacred oaths by which he ought to
have been bound. He seemed desirous


to show, under the tuition of his bad
mother, that he could trifle with the
most sacred obligations, and gratuitously
deceive those who placed confidence in
him. His conduct soon shewed that no
reliance could be placed on his honour,
no faith could be put in his oath. They
had been told that the British ambassador
had remonstrated against his proceedings;
but they ought to have the exact words in
which he did so remonstrate, in order that
they might judge of the spirit and ten-
dency of the instructions which he had
received, and the principles which go-
verned the advisers of the King in the
course which, upon that occasion, they
thought proper to adopt. Let the instruc-
tions on which these remonstrances were
founded be produced, and he would prove
to the House, that even then the mainte-
nance of the Portuguese Constitution was
the great object of the British Govern-
ment. When his right hon. friend endea-
voured to implicate him and his noble
friend in some of the proceedings which
were complained of, he would say to his
right hon. friend, "Give us the papers,
give us the papers, and then we can de-
fend ourselves." He admitted that the
despatch which actually recalled the
troops did bear his name, but he was sure
that his right hon. friend, when he made
that assertion, had not given himself time
to look at the documents, imperfect as
they were. The Letter to which he wished
particularly to refer (that from Sir Fre-
derick Lamb), was dated the 7th of May,
and was received in London on the 27th.
Now, it happened, that before the 27th of
May he had resigned the seals of the Co-
lonial department. This letter referred to
the copy of a note from the Foreign Secre..
tary (Lord Dudley) to the Marquis Pal-
mella. Why had they not that note
before them ? On the day on which that
letter was written, the council of Don
Miguel resolved upon convoking the Cortes.
That was the first indication which they
had of a disposition upon his part to be
guilty of the treachery which marked the
succeeding part of his course. He said
again, he was perfectly ready to admit
that the order was signed by him which
was sent for the real of the British troops,
and that that. order was sent after the
conduct of Don Miguel had given some
cause of uneasiness to his Majesty's Go-
vernment; but it was not to be forgotten
that the Government of that day directed


145i Affairs of Portugal.


{MARCH 10}






147 Aflairs of Portugal.


their Ambassador to address to Don Mi-
guel the strongest remonstrances upon the
nature and tendency of his conduct; and
he much wished that that remonstrance
was then upon the Table of the House,
that Parliament might be enabled to judge
of the manner in which the then advisers
of the Crown had acted. The result of
the despatch which was received on the
22nd of June was, that Sir Frederick
Lamb suspended his functions at Lisbon
until further orders, and the other Powers
all followed the example of England. On
the 13th of July his Majesty's Ministers
received a very laconic letter from Sir
F. Lamb, in which he said, I enclose
the proclamation of Don Miguel, in which
he claims to be recognized as King."
Thus it appeared, that on the 13th of
July his Majesty's Ministers received the
notification of his having usurped the
throne of Portugal, long after he ceased
to be connected with the Government.
On the 13th of July, Ministers received
this information, and he would remind the
House, that only three days after the re-
ceipt of that despatch, when one would
suppose that the Government would have
been filled with indignation at the im-
position which had been practised on his
Majesty-when one would imagine that
the deceit of Don Miguel would meet
with their strongest reprobation only
three days after the arrival of that in-
formation, the Secretary of State for the
Foreign Department (the Earl of Aberdeen)
declared-his regret at the usurpation ?
or his sorrow for the fate of the persons
whose lives and properties were sacrificed
by the usurper ? No such thing; he de-
clared that the friends of Don Miguel
spoke the sentiments of the Portuguese
people. Thus did it go forth to the world,
that the moral influence of Great Britain
had expired ; thus did it appear that our
friendship and assistance were mere sha-
dows. Well might the Portuguese say,
when an English minister again proffered
them assistance, noscitur a sociis-heaven
defend us from such friends. But it
seemed, we were to be friends of neither
party. As if to make up for the praise
thus bestowed on these actions, the noble
Lord had lately spoken of the character of
this wretched Prince in good set terms of
horror and detestation. There are no
terms in our language, he believed, which
could adequately describe the compound
enormity of baseness, perfidy and villany


in so young a man. Before the age of 26
he had attempted or perpetrated every
crime, and displayed every vice which
historical truth and poetical fiction have
accumulated upon the head of the most
sanguinary and remorseless usurper that
ever waded through the blood of innocent
kindred and betrayed friends to the Bri-
tish Throne. The parallel might, perhaps,
not end here. Portugal, like England,
may have a Bosworth Field. For one, I
should not be sorry to see it. It would
be something, at least, for the hon-
our of high lineage and Royal blood, if,
like our Richard, Don Miguel should thus
be permitted to veil the infamy of his life by
the courage which marked its close; and
that it should not be said of him, in the
page of history, as it was said the other
night by a noble Lord, that he was cow-
ardly because he was cruel. Let him not
descend to posterity blacker than Richard,
and then, God knows, he will still be black
enough. But could they talk of this indivi-
dual abstractedly, and without reference to
the engagements into which he had en-
tered ? Could they forget the pledge which
he had given to the King of England?
Could they overlook the indignity with
which his subsequent conduct visited the
monarch of this country ? To use a mili-
tary metaphor, a gallant body of British
troops, including a portion of his
Majesty's household forces, had been
sent out as a covering party, to facilitate
the assaults and attacks which Don
Miguel was about to make on that Consti-
tution which he had sworn to maintain
-they were sent out to look on his bru-
tal violence, and to view, unmoved, the
judicial murders which he was commit-
ting. Was it for the honour of this
country that there should be now some
30,000 or 40,000 Portuguese wandering
all over Europe? He could assure his
right hon. fi'iend, whatever he might
think, that the impression throughout the
world was, that the Constitutional party in
Portugal had suffered deeply for their
strict adhesion to this country. His right
hon. friend had argued, that Ministers
were justified in the course which they
had adopted, and that they would have
acted improperly if they had, under the
existing circumstances, interfered with
Portugal. Why, the history of Portugal,
for the last thirty years was nothing but
the history of English interference; and
it could not be otherwise, in consequence


f coMMONSIs


4ffairs of Portugal.






149 Affairs of Portugal. {MARCII 10} Affairs of Portugal. 150
of the engagements which bound this such institutions as would render her
country to that limited and feeble state. I government sufficiently strong and power-
All must know the reason of the engage- ful, as not to be dependent on England
ments which bound us to defend Portugal on every trifling occasion of danger. If
from any aggression, come from what quar- he were called on to state instances of our
ter it might. It was evident, when an en- interference, not during the period of war,
gagement so binding, and yet so inconve- but since the peace, he would say, that
nient to this country, was so long pre- before the Constitution was sent over from
served, that there must be some leading Rio Janeiro, a large British force was
and paramount interest which called for lying in the Tagus. That force was
it. That leading and paramount interest stationed there, not to assist one party or
was to prevent Portugal from falling another, but to preserve the government
into the hands of any of those great inviolate. And when Don Miguel at-
powers which adjoined that state, and tempted the foulest treason to his sove-
which this country was accustomed to reign and his father, how was it pre-
view with jealousy. Besides, the situa- vented ? Why, by the intervention of the
tion of Portugal was such as would British ambassador, who placed the cap-
enable this country the more easily to tive monarch on board a ship in the
repel any design which the Spaniards harbour, and sent him for safety out of
might meditate with respect to Gibraltar. the country. Speaking of interference,
Supporting that power against her conti- ihe would suppose that when Don Miguel
mental neighbours, we kept a long line of was engaged in the subversion of the
sea, of sea coast harbours of great utility, Portuguese Constitution, in violating
and a considerable maritime population the most solemn pledges, and profiting
in the hands of an ally. Portugal by the presence of the British force to
ought, therefore, to claim as a right a perpetrate a series of the most odious
paramount interest in our councils. treachery, he would suppose that Donna
What had been the history of our con- Maria, the rightful Queen of Portugal,
nection with Portugal for the last thirty had then arrived in that country, and had
years ? Early in the late war, an appli- placed herself at the head of the patriotic
cation was made by Spain to Portugal, party; and what then, he would ask,
calling on her to shut her ports against would have been the conduct of the
Great Britain. And what representation British ambassador. Would he have
did Portugal make to this country ? She deserted her, or would he not rather like the
said, that either we must defend her at ambassador in 1824, have protected her
our own expense, and with our own army by the British force against domestic
and navy, or else that she must comply treason. Did the relationship of the
with the unjust and improper requisition parties make any difference, the rights of
of Spain. This country then entered on the parties being the same. Did ab-
the defence of Portugal, with a most sence make any difference as to these
unbounded profusion of men, of money, rights? He thought not. And if the
of military, of naval, and of every other British ambassador received the sanction
description of succour. Did we not train of the Government in one case, he would
up in that country a well-appointed not have deserved its censure in another;
force? Did we not give strength to her he would not have merited condemnation,
government, and inspire her whole popu- had he protected the Constitution and
lation with a spirit warmly devoted to the Donna against this latter outrage of
preservation of her rights ? All this was Don Miguel, as he had protected the
done, and in what situation stands that father of that Prince against the former.
country now ? All that we did had been His right hon. friend seemed not to like
overturned; and general corruption, folly, the Constitution of Portugal, because it
feebleness, and immorality prevailed, appeared that the Emperor had framed it
Portugal was now in a state of absolute in less than a week, and because it was
inability to make any defence against not suited to the disposition of the Portu-
foreign aggression. She was as ineffi- guese. He did not stand up to defend
cient to defend herself in 1827 as she that Constitution; but it was no answer
was at any time when she called for our to him to say that it must be defective
assistance. It. was the paramount duty because it was framed in so short a time.
then of this country to give to Portugal Let his right hon. friend recollect how






151 Affairs of Portugal.


long Louis 18th was occupied in fram-
ing the Charter of France. He believed
the Charter of France-and he hoped it
would not die a premature death-was
promulgated in three days after the
necessity of such a measure was pointed
out. When the House was gravely told
that England ought not to interfere with
other countries, that this was equally
contrary to her practice, and the law of
nations, he begged to ask what was the
history of Europe for the last fifteen
years, but a history of such interference ?
Naples, Spain, Piedmont, all the smaller
states of Europe, had been so interfered
with ; the fact was, that the sort of consti-
tution to be interfered with justified
or condemned interference. Did any
people, urged by their wants, proceed in a
peaceable, orderly, and quiet manner to
remodel their ancient usages, giving them-
selves institutions intended to secure life
and property, and encourage the growth
of improvement, while they afforded a
protection against arbitrary power; if
those institutions involved the liberty of
discussion, and the freedom of the press,
and promised to establish a regular and
free Constitution; if they were brought
about by the instrumentality of the peo-
ple, all the despots of Europe immediately
joined to crush them. No question was
asked whether the Constitution were good
or bad, fit or unfit; the only question was,
did the constitution flow from the people,
was it the spontaneous growth of the
public sentiment, and if it were, it was
to be unhesitatingly crushed. That the
Portuguese Constitution came from a legi-
timate source, even the despots of Europe
could not deny; that it was well re-
ceived by the most intelligent of the
Portuguese people was equally certain;
but when this Constitution was put down
by a fanatical rabble, headed by priests,
and stimulated and supported by a neigh-
bouring sovereign, then the people of
England heard of nothing but the
doctrine of non-interference, then his
right hon. friend the Secretary of State
for the Home Department, and the
noble Lord, the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs, though never over-anxious
to recognize the power of the people,-
founded their principle of non-interfer-
ence on the impropriety, the impolicy of
appealing against the voice of the people.
The Constitution had the marks and
stamps 'of freedom, and that was the


reason why it was not supported. Though
recognized by all the legitimate sovereigns
of Europe, it was not for one moment
to be defended. Had an attack been
made on an absolute Monarch by the
people, their armies would instantly have
marched to his rescue. They looked,
however, with complacency, and with ap-
probation, on the overthrow of free insti-
tutions. It was not for England to hold
counsel with those who entertained such
doctrines respecting the duty of sove-
reigns. He had already referred to the
language used on hearing of Don Miguel's
usurpation, and was that the only indication
we had given of our readiness to support
him? What was thereason, he would ask,
of the breathless haste with which the
blockade of Oporto was recognized,-a
blockade so utterly inefficient, and even
ridiculous, that whilst the government at
Oporto was sitting devising measures
against Don Miguel, the first intimation
of it was conveyed by the newspapers ?
All Europe was astonished that Great
Britain should so prematurely have thrown
its great influence into the scale of usur-
pation. His right hon. friend (Mr. Peel)
had said Would you go to war?"
Why, if England had manifested her
opinions in the tenour of her conduct, and
especially if she had declared those
opinions to her allies, such a declaration
would alone have been sufficient to crush
the usurper. Even if war were the result,
no man could deny that a war against an
usurper, a rebel against his sovereign, and
a persecutor of his people, would have
been just. But had we merely blockaded
the Tagus, or issued a declaration, or
made a display of force, that would have
been sufficient, and there would have
been an end of the usurpation. But the
fact of this interference in support of the
usurper, and against the legitimate sove-
reign of Portugal, was no longer an
inferential charge against the Government.
It had lately been avowed by the head of
that Government, that his proceedings in
respect to Terceira were pursued with
that intent. With grief and mortification,
greater than he could trust himself to ex-
press, had he heard it declared that the
state of Terceira was not such as it
ought to have been, and would have been,
had the other Powers of Europe done
their duty as this country had done hers,
What was the plain meaning of this decla-
ration ? That we had done every thing


ICOMMONSI


Affairsof Portugal. 152






Affairs of Portugal, 54


in our power, and more, as it would be
made too plainly to appear, than the law
of nations, sanctioned for the odious pur-
pose of putting Terceira under the domi-
nion of Don Miguel; and that he com-
plained that other powers had not co-
operated with us in this iniquitous pro-
ject. We are disappointed, forsooth,
because the King of the Netherlands
would not send his ships of war to pre-
vent Count Villa Flor and his gallant
companions from finding an asylum in that
Island-and yet the King of the Nether-
lands was not committed, as England was
committed, to the protection of those who
had stood by the Constitution and their
legitimate Sovereign, and who had been
taught by us to believe that, in so doing,
they were standing by the connection of
their country with Great Britain: but, if
not committed to them, he felt himself
bound by the law of nations, and the
claims of misfortune. Sir, (said Mr.
Huskisson) at the time I am now speak-
ing, this ill-omened declaration has proba-
bly reached the young and gallant hero,
Count Villa Flor, who is charged with the
defence of that Island, and who has
shewn how worthy he is of that trust, by
the brilliant manner in which he repulsed
the Miguelite forces last autumn. What
must have been his feelings at reading
this declaration? amounting, as it does,
to an expression of regret and disappoint-
ment, that he had been able (able un-
assisted, able in spite of the hostile inter-
ference of England) to save himself and
his loyal countrymen, by their own
prowess, and their own resources, from
the scaffolds, the tortures, the dun-
geons of the usurper. I think I see him
casting his eyes round that little Island,
now so endeared to him by all the noblest
ties of patriotism and honour-I think I
hear him exclaim, in the agony of em-
bittered, but indignant feelings, I was
but a stripling, when, in 1810, Lord Wel-
lington made his stand in the lines of
Torres Vedras. That last little nook of
the land of my birth was then the only
spot in the west of Europe, from Venice
to the mouth of the Vistula, which was
not under the yoke, or in immediate sub-
jection to one overwhelming usurpation.
It was there that I saw Lord Wellington
plant that standard of defiance against
the countless armies of Buonaparte, which,
three years afterwards, flying triumphant
across the Pyrenees, was waving in victory,


and amid the shouts of general peace,
upon the ramparts of Thoulouse. The
sight of Lord Wellington shut up at Torres
Vedras first kindled in my youthful bosom
the love of freedom, and the aspirations of
honourable fame. If from Terceira I
now defy the tyrant of Portugal, it is
because the example of the Duke of Wel-
lington has taught me what may be
achieved by indomitable fortitude, and
by unshaken perseverance in a just cause.
It is with unbounded admiration of those
virtues in him, that I have studied to
make him my pattern, and that I raise
my daily prayers to Heaven, that I may
have the constancy to emulate them for
the restoration of my lawful sovereign,
and the deliverance of my native land."
If these be the feelings of Count Villa
Flor, when he receives the declaration to
which I have alluded with so much
pain and regret, I can only say that, with
those sentiments, I had rather be Count
Villa Flor, shut up with his faithful band
at Terceira, than the Prime Minister of
England, regretting that he and they are
still able to defy the vengeance of Don
Miguel; and fearing that from thence,
they may at last accomplish the down-
fall of his tyranny, and the restoration of
peace and happiness to Portugal. The
right hon. Gentleman concluded by say-
ing he thought on the whole, whether
Parliament looked to the honour of Great
Britain or its interests, whether it looked
to the opinion of foreign states on the
necessity of encouraging freedom; it was
bound to interfere, it was bound to
call for that information which could
alone enable it to form a correct opinion
of the conduct of Ministers. He wished
for inquiry, and for the interposition
of the authority and opinion of Parlia-
ment, in order to prevent those further pro-
ceedings which would make the Ministers
of England appear disadvantageously in
the eyes of Europe, and a blot in our
history in all time to come. There was
but one feeling throughout Europe, that
this country ought to interpose, for the
protection of that party which were now
the agents of persecution for a measure
which we had countenanced. Something
had been said of a treaty of Amnesty; he
would only say that unless it were gua-
ranteed by something more trustworthy
than Don Miguel's oath, no man ought to
rely on it.
Mr. Secretary Peel explained, that !is


153 Affairs of Portugal..


{MAn cI 10}






155 Afairs of Portugal.


right hon. friend had complained that he
had stated that the British army had been
recalled from Portugal, whilst he (Mr.
Huskisson) was Colonial Secretary, at a
time when it was known that Don Miguel
had violated the Charter. But he had not
stated that when his right hon. friend re-
called the British troops Don Miguel had
taken the title of King, though he had
given indications of his intentions to usurp
that title. The order was given on the
26th of March; and, previous to giving it,
a letter had been received from Sir F.
Lamb, stating that the officers of the army
had been displaced, and that other steps
had been taken, which were the evident
precursors of more violent measures. On
the 24th of March, Sir F. Lamb notified
to Lord Dudley, that the Chamber of
Deputies had been dissolved, without
requiring that another should be convoked,
which was directly contrary to the Charter.
It was subsequent to the former despatches
received from Sir F. Lamb that the order
had been used for the recall of the British
troops, and he therefore inferred that his
right hon. friend concurred in the policy
of the British Government not to interpose
by force for the protection of the Portu-
guese Constitution.
Mr. Huskisson explained. What he
complained of was, that his right hon.
friend quoted despatches of his which he
did not produce, and he challenged his
right hon. friend to produce the letter
signed by him.
Mr. Peel (with warmth.)-" I deny the
charge, [loud cries of 'hear.'] I did not
quote the letters of the right hon. Gentle-
man. There is an end of all discussion, if I
cannot refer to facts. I said that an order
was given for the recall of the British
troops by a Secretary of State, and that
Secretary was Mr. Huskisson. I quote
no letters : I relate facts."
Viscount Sandon said, that he did not
think an armed interference was required ;
but Ministers had other means, even
stronger than arms: and it would have
been sufficient had they expressed their
opinion against the usurpation. A foreign
Minister of the country had declared that
the friends of Don Miguel were the friends
of this country; and a few nights after,
the same Minister had declared that Don
Miguel was cruel because he was cowardly.
Both these sentiments were, in his opinion,
improper; and he could not give his con.
fidence to a foreign policy so conducted.


He admired the domestic policy of the
present Government; but if he was put to
the test, he must say that he could not
place confidence in the foreign policy of
the Government. He saw an absurd
readiness to recognize the blockade of
Oporto by Don Miguel, and a determined
opposition to every blockade instituted by
the Greeks. He said the expedition to
Terceira was beaten back, and that to
Mexico allowed to pass unmolested. It
was because he disapproved of the policy
that he meant to support the Motion of
the noble Lord.
Viscount Palmerston replied.-He was
not, he said,desirous of occupying the House
at that hour, but some observations had
fallen from his right hon. friend, to which
a reply was necessary. His right hon.
friend had complained that he had made
choice of his points of attack, but he had
forgotten to add, that the Motion was
communicated to Government some time
before, and it embraced every point on
which he had made any observations. His
right hon.friend (Mr. Peel) had charged him
too with broaching opinions which he had
not avowed whilst a member of the Cabi-
net; but, looking to dates, that reproach
would not appear well founded. It was
true, that he (Lord Palmerston) made no
objection to withdrawing the British
troops from Portugal; but he denied that
the government of Portugal had then
taken a decisive course. He (Lord Pal-
merston) felt himself in an embarrassing
situation, for he did not know whether he
was entitled to use, even hypothetically,
the expressions in the remonstrances made
by the English Government to Don Mi-
guel; but he challenged his right hon.
friend to produce them. The order for
the recall of the troops was sent on the
6th of March. The arrival of the first
communication of any thing like the as-
sumption of royal authority on the part of
Don Miguel was on the 7th of May. On
the 19th of May, he (Lord Palmerston)
attended the last Cabinet Council on this
subject. He wished the right hon. Gen-
tleman would produce the answer to that
despatch of the 7th of May. It would
appear from that despatch what was the
tone held by the British Government
towards Don Miguel. He challenged his
right hon. friend to produce these papers,
which would decide the difference between
them. If his right hon. friend would pro-
duce the others, he would not press for


COMMONSI


Affairs of Portugalt. 166






{MARCH 11} Duties on Conveyances, &c. 158


those which regarded the negotiations with
the Brazils, and he did trust that the
House would support his Motion to this
extent.
Strangers were then ordered to with-
draw, and a division took place. The
numbers were For the Motion 73:
Against it 150:-Majority against the
Motion 77.
List of the Minority.


Bankes, Henry
Beaumont, T. W.
Bentinck, Lord G.
Bernal, Ralph
Blake, Sir F.
Burdett, Sir F.
Canning, Sir Stratford
Carter, John B.
Calthorpe, Fred.
Cave, R. Otway
Cavendish, Henry
Cavendish, Wm.
Chichester, Arthur
Davenport, E.
Duncombe, hon. W.
Denison, J. E.
Dundas, hon. Thomas
Ebrington, Viscount
Ellis, lion. Geo. Agar
Ellis, lion. Augustus
Encombe, Viscount
Ewart, W.
Fazakerly, John N.
Fyler, Thomas B.
Graham, Sir J.
Grant, rt. lion. C.
Grant, R.
Ileneage, G. F.
IIobhouse, J. Cam
Howick, Viscount
IIonywood, W. 'P.
Horton, rt. hon. R.W.
Huskisson, rt. lion. W.
Inglis, Sir Robert
Je hson, Chas. D. 0.
KInight, Robert
Labouchere, Henry
Lamb, hon. George
Lambert, Jas. S.
Lennard, Barrett
Littleton, Edw. J.


Macdonald, Sir James
Macqueen, Potter
Maberly, J.
Morpeth, Viscount
Norton, G. C.
Nugent, Lord
O'Connell, Daniel
Ord, William
Peech,N. W.
Pendarvis, E..W.W
Philips, Sir George
Philips, Geo. R.
Phillimore, Joseph
Price, Robert,
Protheroe, E.
Rice, T. S.
Robinson, Sir II.
Rumbold, E. C.
Russell Lord John
Sibhlhorp, Col.
Smith, W.
Stanley, E. G. S.
Tennyson, Chas.
Thomson, C. P.
Townshend, Lord C.
Vyvyan, Sir R.
Uxbridge, Earl of
Warrender, Sir G.
Wetlerell, Sir C.
Whitmore, W. W.
Wood, C.

TELLERS.
Palmerston, Lord
Sandon, Lord

PAIRED OFF.
Hume, Joseph
Ingilby, Sir W. A.
Gordon, R.
Wilson, Sir R.


HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 11.
MIaurcs.] Returns were laid on the Table, of the quan-
titles or Corn, Flour, and Meal imported into the United
Kingdom, since July 15th, 1828; and of the weekly aver-
age price of Corn, since the same period. Several Petitions
were presented, complaining of Agricultural Distress,
praying that the East-India Company's Charter might
not be renewed, and that Suttees might be put a stop to.

COUNTRY BANK NOTES.] The Duke
of Wellington, in presenting a Petition


from the Parish of St. Pancras, against the
Vestry Act, took an opportunity to answer
a question put to him by his noble friend
(Viscount Goderich) on a former evening,
with respect to a return of Country Bank-
notes, stamped within a certain period.
On inquiry, he found that he was right in
supposing, as he did, when he answered
his noble friend's question at first, that
the amount of Scotch notes was in-
cluded in the account on both sides. He
had ascertained that it would be quite
impossible to distinguish between the
stamps issued for England and Scotland,
except as regarded those for 11. notes,
which were all Scotch. The account in-
cluded the notes of the chartered banks.

DUTIES ON CONVEYANCES OF LIFE-
HOLD PROPERTY.--FIRE INSURANCES.]
The Earl of Malmesbury wished to obtain
returns of the proceeds of two different
descriptions of Stamp-duties, in one of
which, he, as a land-owner, felt a par-
ticular interest; and the other of which
included the interests of many classes of
the community. As the day was approach-
ing, on which it was intended to submit
to the other House of Parliament the usual
annual financial statement, he thought he
could not do better than advert to the sub-
ject at that moment. He alluded to the
Stamp-duties upon Conveyances of Life-
hold property, and he wished to call their
Lordships' attention, for a short time,
to the subject. In some of the western
counties in which he possessed landed
property, it was usual for cottagers to
hold their cottages on lives; and the cus-
tom was a good one, as it encouraged the
breeding up (if he might use the expression)
of a respectable class of cottagers. When
these individuals had children, they na-
turally desired to put their children's lives
in their leases as well as their own ; and
the usual fine for adding one life to two
others in such case was (according to his
own experience, and he believed, it was
the same in the case of other parties) 51.
But this was not all; the tenant who paid
his landlord 51. on account of this trans-
action, had to pay to Government a duty
of Il. 15s. on the conveyance, and 11. 10s.
on the counter-part, thus, making a sum
of 31. 5s. stamp-duty, payable on a trans-
action of which the amount between land-
lord and tenant was only 51. The exist-
ence of this duty opposed a great obstacle
to such transactions. The landlord might


157 Countryl Banzk Notes.





159 Duties on Conveyances, yc. {LORDS}


say to his tenant, pay me the fine by in-
stalments: I know you cannot afford to
pay it at once, and I will take it as you
can spare it;" but the stamp duty must
be paid upon the nail. The consequence
of a duty so disproportionate in amount
to the value of the transaction, was to pre-
vent conveyances being made in many
cases in which they would otherwise be
effected. He was desirous of knowing the
actual amount of revenue produced to the
Exchequerby this tax. Hehoped that there
would appear reason for reducing this
duty? He would have it lowered (if not
entirely remitted) to Is. or 2s. 6d. on each
conveyance. Again, if he had five acres,
which he wished to dispose of in fee, say
for a sum of 1491., the stamp duty was
11. 10s. He wished to ascertain the produce
also of that duty. There were few things
from which land suffered more than from
law transactions, as at present conducted.
The law, or rather taxation, weighed most
heavily upon it. He hoped to see these
onerous and unjust imposts considerably
lowered, or altogether done away with in
the forthcoming financial arrangements.
There was another point affecting landed
property, which was also well deserving
attention;-he alluded to the duty on
policies of fire insurance. He would take
the case of common insurances. He, or
any other man, might not be wealthy
enough to risk the chance of a fire upon
his farm,and was accordingly compelled to
insure his dwelling, farm, buildings, stock,
&c. In 1815,theexpense ofa policy of com-
nion insurance was 2s. per cent, and the
duty was 2s. 6d. (125 per cent on the in-
surance); but it was raised between 1815
and 1824 to 3s. (150 per cent on the in-
surance). Policies were now done at
Is. 6d., the duty still continuing 3s.; so
that the amount of the duty was actually
double the charge of the offices which
undertook to guarantee people's property
from loss by fire. What was the con-
sequence ? Men of large property, who
could afford to run the risk, did not
insure at all. They said, Here are per-
sons willing to insure us for a sum upon
which a duty of 200 per cent is added by
the Government. We shan't pay it: we
will take our chance." He was satisfied
that if this tax upon fire-insurances were
reduced considerably, the Treasury would
be fully repaid, and all deficit prevented
by an increase in the number and amount
of policies, at the same time that there


would be much greater security for pro-
perty than at present. He might here
observe, with reference to the first part of
his statement, that the duty on convey-
ances of cottages was about 75 per
cent on the amount generally demanded
by landlords for the introduction of a new
life into a lease. The duty upon convey-
ances of property, in fee simple, below the
value of 1501. a-year, was also very bur-
thensome. The noble Earl concluded by
moving for A return of the amount of
Stamp-duties paid upon Conveyances of
Lifehold property, under the annual value
of 51.* Also for a return of the amount
of Stamp-duties paid on Conveyances of
property in Fee, under the value of 1501."
-Ordered.
(The cottages in question seldom or never
exceeded the value of 40s., but he fixed 51. in
order to save trouble, and facilitate the making
out of the account.)

STATE OF TIIE COUNTRY.-- RELA-
TIONS WITH PORTUGAL.- TURKEY.]
Lord Holland said, since he came into the
House, he had received a request from his
noble friend (the Duke of Richmond),
whose Motion for a Committee to inquire
into the State of the Country, more par-
ticularly as regarded the employment of
the labouring classes, originally stood for
that day, but which had been put off in
consequence of circumstances which must
be to their Lordships a source of great
regret, to give notice that his noble friend
would submit his motion to theirLordships
on that day week. Accordingly, he would
do so, and would move that the House be
summoned for that day.-Ordered. The
noble Baron proceeded to say, that, seeing
some noble Lords, members of his Ma-
jesty's Government, in their places, he
wished to put two or three questions to
them concerning the relations subsisting
between this country and Portugal. He
was the rather disposed to do so, as in the
several communications made to Parlia-
ment, from time to time, respecting those
relations, there seemed still to remain
(notwithstanding all that had been said
on the subject) a considerable degree
of ambiguity. In order that noble Lords
should fully understand the questions,
it might, perhaps, be necessary for him
to refer to the communications with
which the House had been favoured
on the subject. On the 28th of July,
1828, Parliament was informed, in the


State of the Country. 160





161 Affairs of Portugal.


Speech from the Throne at the close of
the Session, that "his Majesty relies upon
the wisdom of the august Sovereign the
head of the House of Braganza, to take
the course which shall be best calculated
to maintain the interests and honour of
that illustrious family, and to secure the
peace and happiness of the country over
which he reigns." At the opening of the
Session of 1829, Parliament was informed,
in the Speech delivered by the Lords Com-
missioners, that "his Majesty laments
that his diplomatic relations with Portugal
are still necessarily suspended;" and that,
deeply interested in the prosperity of
the Portuguese monarchy, his Majesty
has entered into negotiations with the head
of the House of Braganza, in the hope of
terminating a state of affairs which is in-
compatible with the permanent tranquillity
and welfare of Portugal." Further, at the
conclusion of the Session of 1829, it was
stated by the Lords Commissioners, that
it is with increased regret that his Ma-
jesty again adverts to the condition of the
Portuguese monarchy, but his Majesty
commands us to repeat his determination
to use every effort to reconcile conflicting
interests, and to remove the evils which
press so heavily upon a country, the pros-
perity of which must ever be an object of
his Majesty's solicitude." Notwithstanding
these repeated assurances Parliament was
told at the commencement of the present
Session, that his Majesty laments that he
is unable to announce to you the prospect
of a reconciliation between the Princes of
the House of Braganza;" that "his Majesty
has not yet deemed it expedient to re-
establish upon their ancient footing, his
Majesty's diplomatic relations with the
kingdom of Portugal; but the numerous
embarrassments arising from the con-
tinued interruption of these relations
increase his Majesty's desire to effect
the termination of so serious an evil."
From these communications their Lord-
ships might collect that a negotiation
was established between this country and
the Emperor Don Pedro, with the hope of
reconciling the conflicting interests of the
different branches of the House of Bra-
ganza; and the conclusion was, that our
hopes and endeavours had been disap-
pointed-in fact, that the negotiation had
failed. But since the delivery of the royal
Speech at the commencement of the
Session, some other circumstances had
occurred which rendered it desirable to
VOL. XXIII.


have a little more light thrown upon this
subject. One of the circumstances to
which he alluded involved a communi-
cation, which, although it might not be
strictly regular to introduce and argue upon
in their Lordships' House, must, neverthe-
less, be considered as having been made
to Europe at large,-he meant the late
Speech of the King of France to the
French Chambers. In that Speech lie
found that the King of France informed
the Chambers as follows on the subject of
Portugal:-" I pursue at this moment, in
concert with my allies, negotiations, the
object of which is, to bring about a recon-
ciliation necessary for the repose of the
Peninsula between the Princes of the
House of Braganza." This was some-
what different from the language held in
the Speech delivered in that House at the
commencement of the Session,-but this
by the way: he proceeded to the ques-
tions which he had to propose to the
noble Lord. His first question was this--
Had the negotiation originally established
between this country and the Emperor
Don Pedro, in the year 1829, or the close
of 1828, come to a conclusion; and if so,
had it failed, or not ? In the next place,
he wished to know, with respect to the
negotiation mentioned by the King of
France in his late Speech to the Chambers,
a negotiation undertaken in concert
with his allies," and pursued with similar
views to our own in our negotiation, and,
it might be, for some ulterior purposes,---
were we parties to this second negoti-
ation ? and did we become parties to it
with France in a secondary and sub-
servient point of view, having failed in
the negotiation which we undertook as
principals. His third question regarded
what was, perhaps, an equally irregular
source of information, and an equally
irregular ground of remark. However, he
should proceed with his inquiry founded
upon such grounds. It wasgenerallyunder-
stood by the public, that some of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers had elsewhere alluded,
as a reason for refusing certain papers
connected with the subject of our relations
with Portugal, to the circumstance of
negotiations upon that subject being ac-
tually pending, and to the possibility of
such negotiations being prejudiced by the
production of the papers required. He
wished to know whether the negotiations
stated to be pending, and urged as consti-
tuting a bar to the information demanded,
(i


{MARCH 11}


Affairs of Portugal. 162







{LORDS } Affairs of Portugal.


were negotiations which we were pursuing
in concert with, and under, France, with
Portugal and Spain, or direct negotiations,
undertaken upon our part with the govern- t
ment de facto of Portugal, with a view of
arranging its recognition, and re-estab-
lishing our diplomatic relations with that
government, as hinted at in the Speech
from the Throne at the commencement of
the Session? So much upon the subject of
Portugal: but, since he was upon his
legs, he might as well mention, that there
was an apparent discrepancy between the
French King's Speech and that recently
delivered by the Lords Commissioners in
that House with respect to the mode of
alluding to the termination of the war
between Russia and Turkey. It was
stated in the Speech of the King of
France.-" War has been extinguished
in the East: the moderation of the con-
queror, and the amicable intervention of
the Powers, by preserving the Ottoman
empire from the evils which threatened
it, have maintained the equilibrium, and
confirmed the ancient relations of states."
He understood from the Speech of the
Lords Commissioners that our Govern-
ment felt satisfaction at the peace between
Russia and Turkey, but he did not under-
stand that that peace had been brought
about by the intervention of his Britannic
Majesty. The words of our Speech were,
" His Majesty has seen with satisfaction that
the war between Russia and the Ottoman
Porte has been brought to a conclusion."
Certainly these words did not bear out
the notion of this country having been one
of the powers to whose amicable interven-
tion the preservation of the Ottoman empire,
and of the balance of Europe, was brought
about. He wished to learn whether there
had been an accidental omission in the
royal Speech of a statement of the fact of
intervention on our part, or whether we
were to understand that Great Britain had
looked on indifferently upon the progress
of the quarrel between Russia and Turkey,
and did France interfere to preserve the
Ottoman empire, and maintain the balance
of Europe without us?
The Earl of Aberdeen replied, that the
negotiation to which the noble Lord al-
luded, as having being entered into by us
with Don Pedro, in the summer of 1828,
was considered to be brought to such a
close as deprived us of all prospect of a
successful result with respect to it. In
fact, no negotiation, in the proper sense


of the word, could be said to have existed
on that occasion at Rio de Janeiro, as Lord
Strangford, our ambassador, was referred
o London as the seat of negotiation. It
was naturally enough considered incon-
venient to carry on negotiations on both
sides of the Atlantic at the same time, and
upon the same subject. In point of fact,
the negotiation which failed was carried
on in London, and not at the Brazils.
As to the negotiation of France, that was
quite a different transaction,-it was one
in which we certainly acted in concert
with France, but by no means in a secon-
dary or subservient character. Indeed,
strictly speaking, it could hardly be called
a negotiation. A communication had
been made by us, in concert with France,
with a view to accomplish the end adverted
to in the French King's Speech--the re-
pose of the Peninsula. As to ulterior
purposes," his Majesty's Ministers neither
knew of them nor were parties to them.
Lord Holland wished to know concern-
ing the pending negotiations ?"
The Earl of Aberdeen.-It could hardly
be considered as a negotiation-a com-
munication had been made by us, in con-
cert with France and our allies, to Don
Pedro--the subject was yet pending : it
was impossible to say more on the point.
With respect to the subject of the declar-
ation supposed to have been made by
some members of the Government to the
effect that, in consequence of pending ne-
gotiations, certain papers could not be
laid before Parliament, he must observe
that, assuming this statement to have been
made, nothing could be more true than
that while negotiations were pending, it
must be impossible to produce papers re-
lating to such negotiations; and when
the time came for producing them, prob-
ably the noble Lord would see very good
reasons why they were at the present
moment withheld. This he said in refer-
ence to the general principle of not dis-
closing prematurely the subject of nego-
tiations which were in progress; but he
did not know that any such declaration as
the noble Lord appeared to imagine had,
in fact, ever been made in reference to the
present proceedings. What he understood
was, that the papers in question had been
refused on the ground that their production
might be injurious to a numerous class of
persons about whom every one felt natur-
ally interested. Hie thought it was more
with the view of avoiding the possibility of


163 Affairs of Portuglal.






{MAncH 11} Marriages' validating Act. 166


running this risk, than in reference to pre-
sent negotiations (which were only thrown
in as an additional argument), that the
documents had been refused. They were
not produced lest they should prove inju-
rious to the prospects of those in whom
the noble Lord was himself deeply inter-
ested. With respect to that paragraph in
the speech of the King of France which
referred to "the amicable intervention of
the powers" for the preservation of the
Ottoman empire and the balance of Europe,
lie could assure the noble Lord that our
intervention was most unceasing in the
course of the contest, and went to urge,
in the strongest manner, upon both par-
ties, the necessity of adopting conciliating
views, while we endeavoured all in our
power to forward negotiations of peace
between them. What effect our remon-
strances might have had he could not pre-
tend to say: he hoped it would appear, if
their Lordships looked at the termination
of the contest, that neither party had neg-
lected them. He must, however, admit
that the Turks had long continued obsti-
nately determined to proceed in their own
way, and that they appeared to yield at
length to the urgency of their situation
rather than to the urgency of our remon-
strances or to any thing else.
Lord Holland said, he was not prepared
at that moment with any notice of motion
on the subject of our proceedings in re-
ference to Portugal. However, he wished
to make one or two observations upon what
had fallen from the noble Lord. In an-
swer to the first question proposed to him,
the noble Earl stated, that the negotiation
entered into between this country and the
head of the House of Braganza, took place,
not at Rio de Janeiro, but at London.
He did not care which way it might be,
but as to the fact that His Majesty has
entered into negotiations with the head of
the House of Braganza, in the hope of ter-
minating a state of affairs which is income.
patible with the permanent tranquillity
and welfare of Portugal," as stated in the
Speech from the Throne, at the commence-
ment of the Session of 1829, his wish had
been, to ask the noble Earl whether he con-
sidered those negotiations as completed
and concluded ; and he understood the
noble Earl to say, that they were con-
cluded, and that another negotiation, un-
dertaken by us in conjunction with, but
not under, France, was to be considered a
separate and new negotiation,


The Earl of Aberdeen said, the noble
Lord did not appear fully to understand
him, and had rather misinterpreted what
he had said. The present negotiation, or
communication, couldhardlybe considered
as an entirely separate and new one, be-
cause it had the same object in view as
the original negotiation. What he wished
the noble Lord to understand was, that our
original negotiation with the Emperor Don
Pedro had arrived at such a state that there
was little prospect of its successful issue.
The present negotiation, which we had un-
dertaken in concert with France, was in
continuation of the previous one which we
had conducted by ourselves, and could
hardly be considered a separate negotia-
tion, although undertaken in direct con-
cert with France and our other allies. It
was true that before, although acting with
a perfect feeling of unanimity and concert
with other powers, we acted by ourselves,
and that now we were acting in direct con-
cert with our allies, still it was for the
attainment of the same object as we ori-
ginally had in view.
Lord Holland said, he was to understand,
then, that France was no party to the ne-
gotiation originally, and that she was a
party to the present negotiation. He
would ask, was Spain a party to this nego-
tiation ? The noble Earl talked of our
having undertaken the negotiation in con-
cert with our other allies. He therefore
wished to ask whether Spain was a party ?
The Earl of Aberdeen replied, that the
Court of Spain was no party to the nego-
tiation. He might also as well observe,
that the Court of Austria was a party,
and that throughout the whole of the ne-
gotiations France had full cognizance of
all that had been done by us from the very
first, although she had not, until recently,
acted prominently in the matter, and in
direct concert with this country.

MAlRRIAGES' VALIDATING ACT.] The
House went into a Committee on this Bill,
on the Motion of the Bishop of London.
Lord Holland wished to return his thanks
to the reverend Prelate who had intro-
duced the Bill, the principles and enact-
ments of which, generally speaking, met
with his warm approbation. It was very
disadvantageous, very galling, particularly
where property was concerned, to leave
the authority uncertain by which marriages
could be rendered valid. He believed that
much inconvenience had arisen for want
G2


165 Affairs of Portvgal.







167 Marriages' validating Act. {COMMONS}


of an enactment like the first clause, and
he had to regret that it had not been made
prospective as well as retrospective in its
operation. It would have been desirable
that a method should have been found, to
render the marriages therein described
valid when contracted in future. To the
second clause he had no objection; the
wording of the third clause he thought
somewhat vague. He should like to see
it stated why banns could not be legally
published in certain chapels." Like the
first clause, too, the benefits of this were
all for marriages already contracted, and
no provision was made for future marriages
of the same description. The act would
not, indeed, legalize marriages contracted
in chapels where banns could not be legally
published; but these chapels should be so
described as to leave no doubt on the sub-
ject. The fourth clause, relating to mar-
riages celebrated in chapels of which the'
consecration was doubtful, wanted an ad-
ditional enactment, to put an end to all
doubt, as to what was or what was not a
legally consecrated chapel.
The Bishop of London said, if the noble
Lord's suggestions were acted on, some of
the most important clauses of the Marriage
Act would be nullified. By that it was
provided, that the marriage should take
place where the banns were published.
It had been his object to provide a remedy
for doubts in past cases of inadvertence:
but he would not be a party to remove the
obstacles to clandestine marriages. The
noble Lord was not perhaps aware, that
the last clause of the Bill related only to
one chapel, and that might be more par-
ticularly described. As the law stood,
the bishop of a diocese had the power,
with the consent of the incumbent, to au-
thorise the publication of banns in any
consecrated chapel; but he wished to give
the bishop the power independently of the
incumbent. He believed that at Maccles-
field, which contained from 20,000 to
30,000 inhabitants, most of them had to
go four miles to a chapel because the in-
cumbent refused to allow the banns to be
published in any other.
Some verbal amendments were then
agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read
a third time on a future day.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 11.
MlINUTES.] Mr. NEELE took the Oaths and his Seat, as
Member for Gattoon. Petition werepresented, praying for


Forms of the House. 168


the repeal of the Duties on Coals carried coastwise: Against
the Leather Duties: Against the Malt Duty: For a Reform
in Parliament: For the Abolition of Slavery: For the Eman-
cipation of the Jews: Against the Truck System: Against
the late Change in the Currency: And praying for the re-
moval of the India Company's Monopoly.
Returns were ordered on the Motion of Sir THOMAS FREIE-
MANTLE of Money demanded at the Exchequer by High
Sheriffs of each County of England and Wales, for extra
expenses in 1828-1829, and of the sums granted by the
Exchequer:-On the Motion of Mr. WODEHOUSE, of the
average Prices of Corn in England and Wales for the ten
years ending with 1829:-On the Motion of Lord F. L.
GowEa, of the Expenses of various Public Establishments
in Ireland, and of the Miscellaneous Estimates for Ireland.
Returns were presented of the number of Vessels employed
in the Trade of the United Kingdom for 1829: Of the money
paid for the management of the National Debt : Of balance
of Public Money in the hands of the Bank of England at
different periods: Of the last report ofthe National Vaccine
Establishment: Ofthe twenty-secondReporton Charities:
Of processes issued and the commencement of Writs in the
Courts of Great Sessions of Wales during the last ten years.

FouMS AND ORDERS OF THE HOUSE.]
Mr. Lawley, in presenting three Peti-
tions from individuals against the London
and Birmingham Junction Canal Bill, com-
plaining that their names had been impro-
perly inserted in the subscription-list, ob-
served, that so many irregularities had been
committed in the management of the Bill,
and so many of the Standing Orders of the
House had been violated, that he wished
these Petitions should be referred to a
Committee to examine their allegations.
The Speaker explained, that the rule of
the House was, to give leave to bring in a
private bill, after the petition praying for
leave to bring it in had been referred to a
committee. It was the duty of the com-
mittee to ascertain thatthe StandingOrders
had been complied with. A petition
against the principle of a bill might be
received at any stage, but petitions against
its details were always referred to the
committee after it had been read a second
time. In this case it appeared, as the Bill
had been read a first time, that it must
have been referred to a committee, which
had reportedthat the StandingOrders had
been complied with. If the hon. Member
were prepared to show that the committee
had been imposed on, the House might
reject the Bill.
Mr. Lawley said, he understood that the
petitioners were prepared to prove that the
Standing Orders had been evaded.
Mr. Littleton suggested, that the safer
course would be, to adhere to the rules
laid down by the House.
The Speaker stated it to be his opinion,
that the case could not be passed over,
though there was a difficulty in saying
what was to be done, as it could only.be







169 Forms and Orders


referred back to the committee which had
already decided that the Standing Orders
had been complied with.
Mr. Alderman Thompson said, he had a
Petition to present from several individuals,
complaining that their names had been in-
serted in the list of approvers of the Bill
without their consent. That appeared to
him an unwarrantable infringement on the
rules of the House, which could on no ac-
count be passed over.
The Speaker said, as there was no breach
of privilege, and no irregularity in the forms
which had been followed, he was at a loss
to know to what committee it could be re-
ferred for investigation.
Mr. Littleton said, that until last year,
when the regulations then made limited
the time of presenting petitions complain-
ing of irregularities, with respect to the
Standing Orders such a petition might have
been presented at any time. If the House
were once to open a door to vexatious pro-
ceedings, by infringing those regulations,
the consequence would be, that attornies
in a late stage of the proceedings, point
out some irregularity as to the Standing
Orders, with aview to stop the progress of a
bill to which his clients were opposed.
He admitted that the case of the peti.
tioners was a hard one, but he thought it
would be still greater hardship, if the
rules of the House were departed from.
The Speaker explained, that up to the
Session before last, a petition might be
presented against a private bill at any
stage of its progress through the House,
complaining that the Standing Orders had
not been observed. That power, however,
was frequently abused, and petitions pre-
sented at a late stage of the measure, in
order to frighten the party promoting it, or
increase his expense. To guard against
this, the House ruled that no petition
should be received complaining that the
Standing Orders had not been complied
with, after the first reading of any private
bill. This regulation was, however, found to
go too far, and in practice, as a private bill
was generally brought in when a Com-
mittee reported that the Standing Orders
had been complied with, to operate as a
complete bar against all petitions. To
remedy this, the time of petitioning was
extended to the second reading of a
bill, because that allowed the parties op-
posing the bill an opportunity of peti-
tioning against it, on account of the
Standing Orders not having been complied


with before the party promoting it had
been put to much expense. By that rule
the House was then guided, and he did not
see how it could be departed from without
causing great inconvenience.
Mr. Ilume, who said he had proposed
the Resolution just referred to, was of
opinion that it did prevent vexatious oppo-
sition,while it gave a means of redress. If
it were made out that names and sums had
been put down without any authority, that,
by the rules, of the House would justify
throwing out the Bill.
Mr. D. W. Harvey said, that the alle-
gation was, that a false subscription had
been deposed at the Private Bill Office,
which was a fraud. If it were proved,
though he did not accuse Mr. Eyre Lee, or
any other gentleman, the Bill ought to be
instantly rejected, and an inquiry set on
foot as to its author. One of the allega-
tions of the petition was, that the name of
a person appeared in the list of sub-
scribers for 1,0001. who was not, as he
knew, worth any such sum.
The petitions presented by Mr. Lawley
were then ordered to be referred to the
Committee on the Petition for the Bill.
Mr. Alderman Thompson then presented
a Petition from several persons, complain-
ing that their names had been put down
as subscribers to the same Junction Canal
Bill, when they had never subscribed a
single farthing. The list deposited in the
Bil Office, they stated, was false; they
therefore prayed that the House would
institute an inquiry in order to find out
the authors of this subscription-list, and
that they might be heard by counsel
at the Bar against the Bill. He had seen
the subscription-list, and could assure the
House, that the names of many persons
were down as subscribers for large sums,
whom he knew to be quite unable to pay
any such amounts.
Mr. Littleton deprecated the discussion,
which was all exparte and quite needless,
as the petitions would be referred to a
committee. Mr. Eyre Lee, whose name
had been mentioned, was then in Wor-
cestershire, discharging his duty as sub-
sheriff, and though he knew nothing
whatever of the facts of the case, he could
answer for that gentleman being ready, on
his return, to meet any charge that might
be made against him.
Mr. Alderman Thompson said, he had
no wish to hurry forward an inquiry
in the absence of that gentleman, H-


{MARCH 11}


Of the Ho Ise. 170








171 Forms and Orders


had no doubt of Mr. Eyre Lee's respect-
ability, but he was not more respectable
than manyof the subscribers to the petition,
which he had presented. He would move
that the petition be referred to the same
committee, which he had no doubt would
give Mr. Eyre Lee an opportunity of vin-
dicating himself.
Mr. D. W. Harvey said, that what the
petitioners complained of, the House was
bound to inquire into. It was of such a
nature that it was not to be overlooked. He
had no object in pressing the inquiry but
to do justice, and he hoped that Mr. Eyre
Lee, and the other parties, would be fully
heard in their own defence. He could not
avoid regretting, however, that the hon.
Member for Staffordshire had not evinced
the same desire for parties to be heard, when
he (Mr. Harvey) presented a petition from
an individual against a measure by which
his interests were affected.
Mr. Littleton thought, that his conduct
on that occasion needed no justification,
and that he was bound to move a resolu-
tion, declaring that it was improper for a
person to be both judge and attorney in the
same cause.
Sir John Wrottesley knew nothing of
the particular case, but he wished that
every Englishman, when accused, should
have a fair trial.
Mr. Lawley said, that it was not his in-
tention that the committee should pro-
ceed in the investigation till Mr. Eyre
Lee was present. He did not implicate
Mr. Lee, or any other person, but would
leave the matter entirely to the committee.
The petition presented by Mr. Alder-
man Thompson was also referred to the
committee.
Mr. Benson presented a similar Petition
from thirty-six individuals. They had ap-
plied for shares in the canal, but had never
received any answer. They had never
paid any deposit, and many of them said
they were unable to pay the large sums
placed against their names. He thought
these were matters that required serious
investigation, and he should move that
the petition be referred to a committee. He
wished, as well as the hon. Baronet, not to
condemn a man unheard, and he should
be ready to assist Mr. Eyre Lee in making
his defence; but if he could not defend
himself, it would be his painful duty to
uphold the dignity of Parliament, and
bring the offender to account.
Mr, Littleton said, that the Standing


Orders at present did not require the
christian namesof theparties to be inserted,
which sometimes led to mistakes. Perhaps
the Standing Orders ought to be altered in
that particular.
Petition referred to the Committee on
the Bill, which was revived.

LICENSED VICTUALLERS.] Mr. Alder-
man Thompson presented a Petition,signed
by 1,100 persons engaged in the sale of
beer, by retail, in London, praying that
the House might not consent to throw
open the trade in Beer. He was aware, he
said, that the House was disposed to take
off the restrictions on trade as much as
possible, and in that, as a general prin-
ciple, he cordially concurred; but he
thought the House ought to pause before
it took a step which might not benefit the
public, but would certainly be a most
serious injury to persons carrying on the
trade of Licensed Victuallers. The number
of persons engaged in the trade of selling
beer by retail in the metropolis, meaning
only licensed victuallers, was 4,300, and
the houses they occupied, at the lowest
average, were worth 2501. a-piece to their
owners ; but which, if the trade in beer
were thrown open, would not be worth
any thing. There then was a loss to this
body of individuals exceeding 1,000,0001.
sterling without any corresponding benefit
to the public. A measure involvifig so
serious a loss to any set of men ought not
to receive the sanction of the House, un-
less it were required by some great and
paramount interest. The sale of beer had
been greatly reduced of late years by the
reduction of the duty on wine, spirits, and
coffee; and if duty to the same amount
were taken off beer, the consumption
would probably be increased in proportion :
but it was absurd to suppose that Govern-
ment would increase the consumption by
increasing competition among the sellers.
The duty was so high, that all the retailer
could get as his profit was Id. per pot, out
of which he had to pay rent, taxes, and
all other expenses; so that it was utterly
impossible the public could get it cheaper
by open sale unless the duty was reduced.
He therefore begged to caution those hon.
Members connected with the landed in-
terest, who were willing to support the
throwing open the trade in beer, under an
idea that it would benefit them by tn in-
creased consumption of malt, that it would
do no such thing, Nothing woedieffoot


of the House. 172


{COMMONS}








173 Licensed Victuallers.


that but a reduction of the duty on malt
and beer. If the duty were removed, beer
would enter fairly into competition with
wine, and spirits, and tea, and the quantity
consumed would probably increase. If
it were said that the value he had ascribed
to these houses was fictitious, he would
answer, that this fictitious value was the
result of our excise laws, which had been
more than a century in existence, and tlhe
petitioners had embarked their property in
the trade, perfectly ignorant that these
laws were to be abrogated. The petition-
ers prayed to be heard by themselves or by
counsel against the Bill, which would
plunge their families in ruin.
Mr. Alderman Wood supported the
prayer of the petition, and said that it was
not an over-value to fix the loss which
throwing open the trade in beer would
occasion to the publicans of the metropolis
at 2,000,0001. His hon. colleague had
understated it. There were upwards of
4,000 licensed victuallers in the metro.
polis, and their houses were, he thought,
on an average, worth double the amount
stated by the former speaker. Let the duty
be first taken off malt and beer, and then,
perhaps, the trade might be thrown open,
but to do it at present would ruin those
engaged in it, and give no benefit to the
public. By the abolition of the duty, the
prices would probably fall to three pence
a pot, and the increased consumption
would make up for the smallness of profit.
At present the amount of business was so
small, and the profits so little, that the
publicans could hardly get a living.
Already the trade had been opened to a
certain extent by the establishment of
houses for the sale of intermediate beer,
which had inflicted a serious injury on the
licensed victuallers. He supposed that
Government did not intend to allow the
trade to be carried on without a license,
and if they did not, they would only
divide a trade, that was now too small to
subsist those engaged in it, among double
their number. The tax on malt and beer
was one of the most unjust that ever was
yet devised, because the whole weight of
it fell upon the poor. It really was mon-
strous that the poor should drink their
beer at a charge of 150 or 160 per cent
above the absolute value, while the rich
drank their claret at only twenty-five per
cent beyond its first cost.
Sir J. Newport objected to the practice
of urging vested interests against any


measure of this kind, intended for the
public benefit. It was absurd to talk of
vested interests in a trade carried on under
a law which might at any time be varied
for the public good. If the trade were so
little profitable as was said by the hon.
Alderman, those who now carried it on
had no occasion to fear much competition;
for few persons would be absurd enough
to embark in a trade which would bring
on their ruin. If there were no profit, how-
ever, why were the publicans so anxious
to secure their monopoly ? He was per-
suaded that such a measure would do a
great deal of good, and if the Government
persevered in its intentions, he would give
them all the support in his power.
Mr. G. Dawson said, that he was dis-
posed to give every consideration to the
prayer of the petitioners; but he thought
it would be attended with great inconve-
nience to allow the parties to be heard by
themselves or counsel before the com-
mittee then sitting to inquire into the
regulations under which beer was sold.
Such a course would only tend to bring
before that committee very exaggerated
statements, and would delay its proceeding
without contributing to the discovery of
truth. It was to be hoped that hon.
Members would not be so far carried
away by the heat of debate as to enter on
a desultory, irregular discussion on the
merits of a question, at a time when it
could possibly be productive of no eventual
good, but would content themselves with
providing evidence that might be laid be-
fore the committee, and reserve their
arguments for the proper place, where
they could be fairly sifted and turned to
account. The committee sitting upon the
subject above stairs, he had no doubt
would be disposed to pay every attention
to the representations of a body so respect-
able as the petitioners.
Mr. F. Buxton concurred in thinking
that all exaggerated statements ought to
be avoided. He should not have said one
word on the subject, had not the hon.
Baronet indulged in some remarks which
might better have been spared, as they
were totally uncalled for. He did not in-
tend to advance any thing in vindication
of the monopoly of brewers, although a
brewer himself; but he would say, that the
present system of excessive taxation bore
very hard upon the publican. People did
not appear to be aware of the amount to
which the beverage of the poor man was


Licensed Victuallers. 174


{MARCH 11}







175 Licensed Vichitdlers.


tx edi;aasd nothing could so well demon-
state 'the grievance alluded to as a state-
ment of the rate at which the consumers
of beer paid for their humble enjoyment,
compared with the tax imposed on the
luxuries of the rich. Those who regaled
themselves on champagne paid a duty of
only twenty-seven per cent; those who
drank claret paid twenty-eight per cent;
those who took port paid fifty-six; but the
consumers of beer were mulcted to the
amount of 165 per cent. Again, gentle-
nien consumed malt at 20s. per quarter,
while the poor man was constrained to pay
5$s. A reduction of one-half had been
taken off the duty on spirits, but no cor-
responding concession had been made in
the'article of beer, which was peculiarly
the accompaniment of the poor man's
recreation. These were evils which could
be removed by the reduction of taxation
only; not by the abolition of the monopoly.
That would not prove any remedy what-
ever, unless the House at the same time
abolished the duties both on malt and beer.
He did not complain as a brewer, but he
was convinced that many publicans, men
who had embarked their whole capital in
their trade, would be ruined. If the public
good required any alteration of the present
system, he hoped that the House would
not stop short until it carried the principles
of free trade into full effect throughout the
wholee'system of our legislation. Let the
brewers buy both hops and corn in foreign
markets, wherever they could get them
better and cheaper than in our own; and
one of these articles, hops, was much
cheaper abroad than at home. The case
of the publicans was undoubtedly one of
irtich hardship; they could live under the
resent system, or they might be able to
lyve under a system of perfect freedom;
but a system of half favouritism and half
freedom would be injurious to all classes.
Mr. C. Barclay acknowledged that that
was not a proper occasion for entering on
the discussion, as all parties would have
an opportunity of making their sentiments
,p wn to the committee, who, he was sure,
would pay due attention to their state-
wpapts, and act between conflicting inter-
ast-aa justice might dictate. He believed
i hat'Ministers meant to act fairly by all
ttidi; but many industrious individuals,
Sifard, would be overwhelmed with
Ai0res;, if not with ruin, .f the existing
I4,eM were very considerably and sud-
.j|i altered,, Why the right hon. baronet


had made such an attack on the publicans
he did not know, unless it were because he
came from a country in which there was
no beer. He assured that right hon.
Gentleman, that the people whose inter-
ests he seemed to value so lightly were
generally persons of .great industry and
economy, who from small beginnings had
attained to independence.
Mr. Alderman Thompson in moving that
the Petition be referred to the committee
thanked the Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. G. Dawson) for his candor on that
occasion. When the House recollected
the great stake the petitioners had in the
inquiry, it would not be surprised that
they should be anxious that their interests
should receive due consideration.
Petition referred to a committee.

DIsTRESS AND REFORM.] Sir F. Bur-
dett presented a Petition from the Manu-
facturers and Shopkeepers of Coventry,
complaining of Distress, and praying for a
Reform in Parliament. The hon. Baronet
said, he perfectly concurred in the senti-
ments of the petitioners.
Mr. Fyler declared his conviction, that
the parties to this petition were suffering
under most overwhelming distress. He
did not take offence on account of their
not having intrusted it to him, but should
have candidly stated, had he been so
honoured, how far he agreed with them,
and how far he dissented. They prayed,
as he was informed, for annual parlia-
ments, election by ballot, and universal
suffrage, on none of which points did their
opinions coincide with his own. With
respect to their desire for introducing
ballot, he could never be brought to ap-
prove that American, or rather dark Italian
system of election, but he could give his
hearty support to a temperate and gradual
reform. He agreed with that part of the
petition which represented the retail deal-
ers as being in extreme distress. He knew
they were so generally in the country,
whatever they might be in town, and he
was amazingly surprised to hear from high
authority, that they were flourishing and
prosperous. In his opinion, the true and
only remedy for distress was relief from
taxation, and for that he would vote,
though he would not lend his name to
swell ministerial majorities, nor to give
importance to factious opposition.; i
The Petition was read, and, ordered to
be printed,


COMMONS)


Distress and Reforin. 176







177 East 'India-Company's { lM7


SLAVERY.] Mr. Jephson presented a
petition from a Mr. Johnston, praying for
the abolition of Slavery in the West Indies.
Mr. O'Connell, in seconding the motion
of his hon. friend for bringing up the peti-
tion, said, he did not think the House was
taking all the steps it might for the aboli-
tion of Slavery in the West Indies. He
was willing to admit that in those colonies
which had no legislatures of their own,
being under the immediate control of the
Crown, something had been done for
ameliorating the condition of the slave-
population. Where, however, there hap-
pened, unfortunately for the poor negroes,
to be a colonial legislature, the condition
of those unhappy beings remained un-
changed. He could not let that oppor-
tunity pass without expressing his deep
abhorrence of a system which subjected
one human being to the lash of another;
a system repugnant alike to the best feel-
ings of humanity, and to the dictates of
sound policy.
The Petition to lie on the Table.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S MONOPOLY.]
Mr. Poulett Thomson said, he had to
present a Petition from individuals whose
wealth, influence, and respectability
placed them on a footing of equality with
the highest classes of their fellow-subjects,
and entitled their sentiments on all sub-
jects, but more especially on that which
was involved in their petition, to the most
earnest and respectful attention of the
House. It related to the monopoly of the
East-India Company, in reference to which
they held but one opinion, and that was
embodied in the petition which he had the
honour to present. It was not necessary
for him, on that occasion, to say any thing
of his own sentiments, he would merely
state the views which were taken by the
petitioners. He was gratified in having
an opportunity of doing so, as it had been
industriously represented that the mer-
chants of London, who were concerned in
the East India trade, had separate inter-
ests, and entertained separate opinions,
quite different from those already so gene-
rally expressed by the merchants of the
outports. The petition in his hand fully
refuted those assertions, and proved that
the London merchants made common
cause with the parties to former petitions,
and perfectly coincided in their sentiments
withthe merchants and manufacturers at
the outports,


The petitioners, said Mr. Thomson,
are merchants and agents connected with
the trade of the East Indies, resident in
London; and they state,
That they are deeply interested in the in-
quiry now pending in your hon. House 'into
the state of the Trade between Great Britain,
the East Indies, and China,' as connected with
a renewal of the Charter to the East-India
Company.
That it is their opinion, from the experi-
ence obtained since the opening of the trade
to the East Indies, by the 53rd of George 3rd,
and subsequent acts, that the manufacturing,
shipping, and commercial interests of the
United Kingdom have derived very important
advantages therefrom.
"That they confidently rely that, in any
renewal of the Charter of the East India Com-
pany, due provision will be made to allow such
free intercourse of British subjects with India,
and to give to them such right of settling there-
in, as shall (consistently with the security of
the British Government, and the welfare of the
native population) be best calculated to pro-
mote the full development of the internal re-
sources of that country, and, by the application
of British skill and capital, improve its various
products, especially those of sugar, cotton, silk,
and tobacco; these being the principal means
by which, in the opinion of your petitioners, a
further extension of the valuable trade with
India, now obstructed by the difficulty of ob.
training returns, may be facilitated.
That, adverting to the fact of the Govern.
ment of India having recently imposed a heavy
and most vexatious burthen on the commerce
of that country, through the operation of the
' Stamp Regulation,' it is, in their opinion, due
to the commercial interests of India that the
trade should be at once relieved from that
burthen, and protected against the imposition
of any tax whatever by the local government,
without a fair opportunity being afforded to
all parties affected thereby of canvassing its
merits and provisions, and of submitting to the
Government such objections as they may
entertain to the measure, previously to its
acquiring the force of law.
They further state, that it is their opinion,
supported by the personal experience of many
of them, that commercial dealings, on the part
of the Government of India, whether as mer-
chants or manufacturers, are destructive of fair
competition, and are, in consequence, calcu-
lated rather to depress than excite commercial
enterprise through the countries subject to
their dominion. It is, therefore, most impor-
tant to the mercantile prosperity of India that
the government of that country should be
entirely restricted from all commercial deal-
ings, save and except, in reference to thb
export trade from India to Europe, it be abs9-
lutely necessary to buy produce in ':6pi
market, for the purpose of remittance in alt of
the territorial demands on the London treasury


(MARCH 11


1Monopoly. 178







179 East India Company's {COMMONS}


when no other means of supply can be ob-
tained."
The petitioners add, however, That, whilst
they express this opinion as to the bounds
which should be set to the commercial inter-
ference of the government of India, they desire
to be distinctly understood not to uphold the
usefulness or necessity of even such limited
transactions, believing as they do, that the
condition of India will, under a free and open
competition of commerce, afford further proof
to the experience furnished by all other coun-
tries in the world, that the work of remittance
can be best performed by means of the indus-
try, intelligence, and economy of merchants
individually interested in the result of their
undertakings.
"The petitioners further say, that they re-
frain, at this time, from making any declaration
on the important question of the monopoly in
the supply of tea to this country, now vested in
the East-India Company, because, in their
opinion, that subject is interwoven with various
other considerations, besides those purely com-
mercial, which render a full investigation
indispensably necessary for establishing a fair
and just decision as to the course which it may
be wise to pursue in furtherance of the common
interests of the country.
"But, pending the consideration which is
now giving to this most important object,
the petitioners say they cannot withhold the
expression of their opinion that the interests
of British merchants, ship-owners, and manu-
facturers, ought not to be any longer disregard-
ed in relation to the commerce of China; nor
the expression of their hope, that merchants of
this country shall be no longer excluded from
the exercise of their skill, and the employment
of their capital, in a lucrative branch of the
commerce of the world, open to all other
nations of Europe and America, whilst the
exclusion of the private merchants of the
United Kingdom has, without producing any
corresponding benefit to the East-India Com-
pany, had the direct effect of checking the
general commerce of the country, and narrow-
ing the consumption of its manufactures.
"These being the views," said Mr. Thomson
in conclusion, "which the petitioners entertain
on this important subject, they pray your
honourable Iouse will adopt such measures
as may afford greater facilities for the exten-
sion of the trade with India and China, pro-
mote its general prosperity, and conduce to the
improvement and welfare of the vast popula-
tion of the British territories in the East."
He had read the Petition, he then
stated, at full length, in order to shew
that the petitioners entertained the same
opinions as the large body of merchants
throughout the country, who were by their
petitions calling on Parliament to do away
the East-India Company's monopoly.
Mr. Huskisson stated, that he was about
to present a Petition, very numerously and


respectably signed, praying that the East
India Company's charter might not be
renewed. The signature of every mer-
chant, every banker, and every ship-owner
in Liverpool was affixed to this petition,
and the petitioners were in number about
7,000. That was not the time for de-
bating such a subject, as it could be more
fitly discussed in the committee to which
the petition might be referred; but he
would merely observe, that exclusive pri-
vileges in these days were out of fashion.
Although he did not mean to make a par-
ticular application of his remark to the
East India Company, he would not
scruple to affirm, that more industry would
have been called into employment if mo-
nopoly had never been in existence.
General Gascoyne said, he had another
Petition of the same sort to present. He
hoped that when the question came to be
discussed, they would not be met with
an argument founded upon the immense
capital which the Company invested in
their concern and the business of their
trade. He was afraid, however, that it
would be said-What! do you propose
to take away the trade with China,
without enabling them to pay their debt ?
Such an argument might be valid if the
Company had paid off any debt while it
had the trade all to itself, but it happened
that the debt of the Company had in-
creased since 1813, from 7,000,0001. to
40,000,0001. He hoped also, that in the
coming discussion, they should hear no-
thing of vested interests in the mainten-
ance of a monopoly. The petitioners,
he observed, did not interfere with the
political management of India; all they
asked for was commercial freedom. For
his own part, he was quite at a loss to
understand upon what ground it would
be sought to continue the monopoly of the
China trade. The interests of millions were
not to be sacrificed for the sake of two or
3,000.
Mr. Astell rebuked the hon. and gallant
officer for having indulged in some exag-
gerated statements. In the committee the
question, he hoped, would rest only on
its own merits, and be decided on the
principle of justice, apart from the con-
sideration of the relative units, whether
millions or thousands, on the one side or
the other, and without reference to the
exaggerated statements which were every
now and then made to the House.
The Petition to be printed.


Monopoly.







181 Radical Reform.


Mr. Hiuskisson presented a similar Pe-
tition from the Liverpool Dock Company.

RADICAL REFORM.] Mr. O'Connell
said, he had two Petitions to present, pray-
ing for a Radical Reform in that House.
He feared that the position for which the
petitioners contended was likely to meet
with but little favour in that House ; but,
in his opinion, and he had little hesitation
in stating that opinion, the reform of the
House was a debt due from Parliament to
the people-that was an assertion which
he advisedly made, and which he felt
bound to sustain, as well from a deep
conviction of its truth, as from the addi-
tional reason for sustaining it, which he
derived from the solemn pledge upon the
subject which he had given to his consti-
tuents, and which formed one of the
conditions upon which he had accepted
the situation of one of their representa-
tives. One of the petitions which he had
to present on this subject, was from cer-
tain inhabitants of Ireland; the other
emanated from a meeting held in London,
where no less than 30,000 individuals
were present-it was a meeting at
which the utmost order and decorum
prevailed-it was conducted in the most
regular and peaceable manner-he was
sure with the most loyal intentions-he
knew with the most perfect unanimity.
The Petition prayed for Radical Reform :
it came from 30,000 British subjects, who
considered that that House of Parliament
ought not to be an instalment of the other
House-that the people of England ought
not to allow themselves to be made the
property of an oligarchy. He had the
highest respect individually for many of
those who commanded seats in that
House, but he could not shut his eyes to
the usurpation of popular privileges of
which they were guilty. The petition
which he had to lay before them from Ire-
land, bore two thousand signatures; and
with the permission of the House, he
would briefly and rapidly go through the
statement and prayer of that petition. It
contended, in the first place, that all per-
sons under the degree of a Peer, had a
right to be represented in that House;
that no Peer was entitled to interfere in
elections of Members to serve in that
House; that it was robbery to levy taxes
upon any class not duly represented there;
and that it would be murder to put any
pian to death under laws enacted by a


Parliament in which the suffering party
was not duly represented; that when not
represented, the people of this realm were
deprived of their rights; that no single
person ought to be allowed to nominate to
seats in that House; that it had become
a matter of notoriety these seats were
bought and sold; that there could be
no purity of election without election by
ballot, and without radical reform; it
called attention to the fact, that the poor
were taxed to the extent of 120 per cent,
and the luxuries of the rich only to 27
per cent. From this they inferred, that
the people were not fairly represented in
that House; for, if they were, a principle
of greater humanity might be expected to
prevail, and the interest of the poor would
be more attended to. These petitioners,
he observed, obeyed the unconstitutional
law, by which a Lord-lieutenant in Ire-
land was enabled to disperse any such
meeting. They accordingly did not meet:
but the petition bore the signatures of two
thousand persons. The other petition, to
which he should as briefly advert as to the
former, came certainly from a meeting
composed of not less than 30,000 indi-
viduals. It was voted by that meeting
unanimously voted, but it bore the sig-
natures of only ten, and as the petition of
those ten he knew it must be received.
The petitioners stated that, owing to the
existing distress, their industry had be-
come useless, and that there existed no
prospect of relief-that they attributed
the distress under which they laboured,
in a great degree, to the long, bloody, and
disastrous wars which a venal Parliament
led the Crown to carry on, especially
those against the independence of America
and the liberties of France, by which a
debt of 500,000,0001. was contracted, and
an accumulation of fiscal laws and regu-
lations brought upon the people, which
offered to industry the most serious inter-
ruptions. They prayed the House to re-
store the efficacy of Magna Charta and
the Bill of Rights, and to secure for the
people of England those rights and privi-
leges which every King of England had
sworn to maintain from Edward 1st to
George 4th. It prayed further that in any
alteration which the House might make
in its own constitution, it would secure to
the people the right of voting by ballot,
as the most effectual means of preventing
bribery; for the secrecy of a ballot set
bribery and intimidation at defiance,


{MARCH 11}


Radical Reform.L 182







183' The Poor of Ireland.


The two Petitions to be printed.

THE POOR or IRELAND.] Mr. Spring
Rice rose, he said, to bring forward, pur-
suant to notice, a Motion for the appoint-
ment of a Select Committee to take into
consideration the state of the Labouring
Poor of Ireland, and the best means to
improve their condition. The hon. Mem-
ber adverted, in the first instance, to the
discussion which had taken place upon the
subject last Session, when it was brought
under the notice of the House by a friend
of his, who was no longer a Member-
Mr. Villiers Stewart. Though he (Mr. S.
Rice) did not fully concur in the reso-
lution submitted on that occasion by his
hon. friend, yet he was sure that if Mr.
Villiers Stewart had continued a Member
of that House to the present time, he
would not have objected to the Motion
with which he then intended to conclude,
namely-" that a Committee be appointed
to inquire into the state of the Labouring
Poor in Ireland." After much regretting
the absence of Mr. Villiers Stewart, and
pronouncing a warm eulogium upon his
character and talents, he went on to say,
that though he and that gentleman essen-
tially differed as to the means of effecting
an improvement in the state of the la-
bouring poor of Ireland, yet they were
animated by the same spirit, and anxious
to bring about similar results. They now
came to the consideration of the state of
the Irish poor, free from one of the great
difficulties and impediments which had
heretofore interrupted the consideration
of any measures for the improvement
of Ireland-he alluded to the religious
dissensions which had so long distracted
that country, and which were now so
happily terminated. He had understood
from the noble Lord opposite, that no
objection would be made to the appoint-
ment of a committee, and he should
therefore have limited himself to the mere
terms of his Motion, had he not been
apprehensive that his views and intentions
might be mistaken in Ireland; and that
in that House persons might support his
Motion from misunderstanding the object
he meant to keep in view. He desired to
entrap no votes and no support on any
false views, and therefore he meant, with
the permission of the House, to enter
into an explanation at considerable length.
The first proposition which he meant to
establish was, that there existed a case for


inquiry, which no one who had paid the
slightest attention to the evidence laid
upon the Table 6f the House, upon the
subject of the Irish poor, could doubt.
In fact, all admitted that such a case
existed. The next object, after acquiring
information, was to found on the in-
formation some practical measure. If
the House approached the inquiry, and
came to a decision in a temper of moder-
ation and discretion, he had no doubt that
such a practical measure would be the
beneficial result. It had too often hap-
pened, indeed, that measures like that
he proposed had ended in nothing; but
should the inquiry be determined on, he
begged to assure the House that he would
do all in his power that the labours of the
committee should not be allowed to be-
come a dead letter. It was the saying of
an ancient sage, that Hell was paved with
good intentions, and it had but too often
been the practice of that House to appoint
committees to examine witnesses, to make
reports-most wise, and prudent, and ra-
tional-but those reports were made only
to be neglected and forgotten. There
was already before the House a great mass
of evidence upon the subject of the people
of Ireland, which he should, in the first
place, beg leave to refer to the committee,
and then he should wish that the com-
mittee be desired to extend the inquiry
as far as might be necessary for bringing
the information down to the present
time. He hoped that the effect of that
inquiry would be to disprove the ex-
aggerated statements which they were
every hour in the habit of hearing with
respect to the state of Ireland, and the dis-
tress prevailing in that country. He did
not deny the existence of distress, and
very considerable distress in Ireland, but
he altogether denied that the distress existed
to the extent which had been stated in
some quarters. It was decidedly his opi-
nion, that the poor of Ireland were by no
means in a condition of such distress, rela-
tively to those above them, as the English
poor were, though it was very much the
practice to speak of the sinking and de-
pressed condition of Ireland. He begged
briefly to call the attention of the House
to the exports of that country to England,
and he should confine himself to a single
case. Exactly a century before the time
he was speaking, Sir Charles Whitworth
stated-and he was considered good autho-
rity-that the exports of Ireland to Eng-


ICOMMONSI


The Poo), of Ireland. 184







land amounted annually to about287,0001. to any measure of legislation with a view
That statement was written in the year to its further improvement, it would be
1729. Now the exports from a single necessary that the House should have its
city (Waterford) that which his right hon. actual condition before them, and that
friend near him represented-amounted brought down to the latest period. In
to no less in a single year than 2,163,0001. moving for a committee at that early
There was reason to believe that capital period of the Session, there was every
was accumulating in every part of Ireland, reasonable prospect that its labours might
and he believed that many of the gentle- be brought to a close time enough to admit
men in that House connected with the of practical results. The next subject to
banking concerns of Ireland could bear which he would direct the attention of the
testimony to the improving condition of House was, the charge brought against the
the commercial portion of the Irish people Irish gentry and middle classes that they
in other ways besides the exports to Eng- showed no disposition to relieve the wants
land. He confidently looked forward to a and necessities of their poorer fellow-coun-
period of greater prosperity for Ireland than trymen. National reflections might be
ever she had before experienced. Already easily made, but they should not be made
he was able to trace a great improvement lightly. What were the facts of the case ?
in the condition of the people, of which he Was Ireland without its charitable insti-
would mention an example. In 1827 the tutions? Far from it: no country under
number of persons admitted into the fever Heaven, he would venture to say, main-
hospital at Limerick was 2,780; in 1828 tained, as compared with its means, more
it was 2,920; while, in 1829, it was for- munificent asylums for the sick and des-
tunately diminished to 692. As disease titute than Ireland. Let the House look
and poverty generally went hand in hand, to the asylums for the insane, and they
he did not know that he could quote a would see none of the great towns without
stronger proof of the improved condition one, and none of the provinces, except
of the people, and that the distress, though Connaught, (in which, however, there was
it was very severe, was not last year equal one about to be erected,) and those were
to former years. The hon. Gentleman then chiefly supported by voluntary contribu-
briefly adverted to the condition of the tion. Then every county in Ireland had
labouring poor in Killarney, among whom, its county hospital, except Waterford,
he said, the Earl of Kenmare expended which had an institution under another
5,0001. annually, finding them employ- name, but for the same purpose. The
ment; to the numbers living by mendicity Lunatic Asylums for the poor, he said,
in Bandon, who, he said, were 2,590; in were more generously endowed, and ex-
Cork, where many were in a state of des- ceeded in magnitude those of any
titution; and in Dublin, where 7,000 per- other country. There were also fever
sons lived on alms; and then he pro- hospitals and county hospitals, which re-
ceeded to show the improving condition lived 8,000 patients, and were provided
of the country from the criminal returns, for at the expense of 54,0001. a year; and
The population, he observed, was rapidly there were other public institutions in each
augmenting, and crime, so far from in- of the four provinces. Of the sum expended
creasing, had considerably diminished of on county hospitals, 54,0001. a year, only
late years. In 1823 the commitments 2,6001. was provided by Parliament, and
were 15,000; in 1828, 14,600-showing the remainder was contributed by the
a difference of 400 for the whole island, charity of Ireland. He would next advert
The progress of crime had been advancing to the fever hospitals, which were estab-
in England in 1828, as the right hon. lished all over the country, and all of
Secretaryopposite knew; while in Ireland which, except the one at Dublin, were
the contrary was the case. In that coun- supported by local funds, and without
try, in 1823, the executions were 61; 1827, costing the Government any thing. At
37; 1828, 21. In 1823 those convicted all these hospitals, amounting in number
of seditious practices amounted to 121; to 271, cases of fever were treated with
1825, 9; 1827, they had fallen to nothing, as great liberality, and with as great suc-
and in 1828, they were 3 only. Thus it cess, as in any hospitals of this country.
would be seen that the condition of Ire- There were also Dispensaries for the relief
land had, in more ways than one, been of sick persons, to the amount of 400,
materially ameliorated ; but antecedently supported by private subscription; andit


185 The Poor of Ireland.


{MARCH 11)


The Poor of Ireland. 186




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