• TABLE OF CONTENTS
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 Title Page
 Table of Contents
 September 1886
 Table of all the statutes
 Local acts
 General index to session 2, 1886:...
 Index to Hansard's parliamentary...














Title: Hansard's parliamentary debates
ALL VOLUMES CITATION PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00072012/00005
 Material Information
Title: Hansard's parliamentary debates
Physical Description: 361 v. : ; 23-25 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Great Britain -- Parliament
Hansard, T. C ( Thomas Curson ), 1776-1833
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: S.l
Manufacturer: T.C. Hansard
Publication Date: 1829-1891
 Subjects
Subject: Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Great Britain -- 19th century   ( lcsh )
 Notes
Dates or Sequential Designation: New ser., v. 21 (Mar./June 1829)-v. 25 (June/July 1830); 3rd ser., v. 1 (Oct./Dec. 1830)-v. 356 (July/Aug. 1891).
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00072012
Volume ID: VID00005
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 07655885
lccn - sn 85062630
 Related Items
Preceded by: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Succeeded by: Parliamentary debates (1892-1908)

Table of Contents
    Title Page
        Title Page 1
        Title Page 2
    Table of Contents
        Table of Contents 1
        Table of Contents 2
        Table of Contents 3
        Table of Contents 4
        Table of Contents 5
        Table of Contents 6
        Table of Contents 7
        Table of Contents 8
        Table of Contents 9
        Table of Contents 10
        Table of Contents 11
        Table of Contents 12
        Table of Contents 13
        Table of Contents 14
        Table of Contents 15
        Table of Contents 16
        Table of Contents 17
        Table of Contents 18
        Table of Contents 19
        Table of Contents 20
        Table of Contents 21
        Table of Contents 22
        Table of Contents 23
        Table of Contents 24
        Table of Contents 25
        Table of Contents 26
        Table of Contents 27
        Table of Contents 28
        Table of Contents 29
        Table of Contents 30
        Table of Contents 31
        Table of Contents 32
    September 1886
        Page 1-2
        Friday, September 10 - House of Commons
            Page 1-2
            Page 3-4
            Page 5-6
            Page 7-8
            Page 9-10
            Page 11-12
            Page 13-14
            Page 15-16
            Page 17-18
            Page 19-20
            Page 21-22
            Page 23-24
            Page 25-26
            Page 27-28
            Page 29-30
            Page 31-32
            Page 33-34
            Page 35-36
            Page 37-38
            Page 39-40
            Page 41-42
            Page 43-44
            Page 45-46
            Page 47-48
            Page 49-50
            Page 51-52
            Page 53-54
            Page 55-56
            Page 57-58
            Page 59-60
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            Page 155-156
            Page 157-158
        Monday, September 13 - House of Lords
            Page 159-160
        Monday, September 13 - House of Commons
            Page 159-160
            Page 161-162
            Page 163-164
            Page 165-166
            Page 167-168
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            Page 319-320
            Page 321-322
            Page 323-324
            Page 325-326
            Page 327-328
        Tuesday, September 14 - House of Commons
            Page 329-330
            Page 331-332
            Page 333-334
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            Page 493-494
        Wednesday, September 15 - House of Commons
            Page 495-496
            Page 497-498
            Page 499-500
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            Page 579-580
        Thursday, September 16 - House of Lords
            Page 581-582
        Thursday, September 16 - House of Commons
            Page 581-582
            Page 583-584
            Page 585-586
            Page 587-588
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        Friday, September 17 - House of Commons
            Page 763-764
            Page 765-766
            Page 767-768
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            Page 925-926
        Saturday, September 18 - House of Commons
            Page 927-928
            Page 929-930
            Page 931-932
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        Monday, September 20 - House of Lords
            Page 947-948
            Page 949-950
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        Tuesday, September 21 - House of Lords
            Page 1087-1088
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Full Text



HANSARD'S


PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.

THIRD SERIES:

COMMENCING WITH THE ACCESSION OF


WILLIAM IV.


( FCR THE I
,s/C SER\


500 VICTORIAE, 1886.


VOL. CCCIX.

COMPRISING THE PERIOD FROM

THE TENTH DAY OF SEPTEMBER 1886,
TO
THE TWENTY-FIFTH DAY OF SEPTEMBER 1886.


SECOND AND LAST VOLUME OF SESSION 2.



LONDON:
PUBLISHED BY CORNELIUS BUCK & SON,
AT THE OFFICE FOR HANSARD'S PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,"
22, PATERNOSTER ROW. [E.C.]

1886.
















TABLE OF CONTENTS


TO


V OLU ME 0CC IX.



THIRD SERIES.


COMMONS, FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 10. Page
QUESTIONS.

FRANCE-TnE FRENCH CUSTOMS LAW-EXACTIONS AT THE PORT OF ROUEN
-Question, Mr. King; Answer, The Under Secretary of Stato for
Foreign Affairs (Sir James Fergusson) .... 2
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-THE POSTMASTER AT KILDYSART, CO. CLARE-
Questions, Mr. Jordan; Answers, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) 3
FISHERIES (IRELAND) -THE WEST AND NORTH WEST COAST-LOANS TO
FISHERMEN-Question, Mr. Clancy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .... .. 5
INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND)-THE ASSISTANT COMMISSIONERS-
Question, Mr. Clancy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir
Michael Hicks-Beach) ...... .. 6
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-BELFAST -TELEGRAPH CLERKS-Questions, Mr.
Sexton; Answers, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) .. 7
THE TRUCK ACTS-INFRINGEMENT IN SCOTLAND-Questions, Mr. Bradlaugh;
Answers, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Matthews), The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald) .. 7
INLAND NAVIGATION AND DRAINAGE (IRELAND)-DRAINAGE OF LOUGH ERNE
-Question, Mr. Jordan; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir
Michael Hicks-Beach) ...... .. 8
INDIA--THE GOVERNOR OF MADRAS-Question, Mr. Jordan; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John Gorst) .. .. 9
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-BUNDORAN PIER, CO. DONEGAL
-Question, Mr. Bernard Kelly; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Jackson) .... .... 9
COMMISSIONERS OF IRISH LIGHTS--DONEGAL HARBOUR-Question, Mr. Ber-
nard Kelly; Answer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron
Henry De Worms) .... .. 10
VOL. CCCIX. [THIRD SERIES. [ b ]







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

FSeptember 10.]
PORTUGAL-MADEIRA--M R. MAXWELL WRIGHT, A BRITISH SUBJECT-
Question, Sir Whittaker Ellis; Answer, The Under Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs (Sir James Fergusson)
THE NEW FOREST-SALES OF LAND-Question. Sir Whittaker Ellis; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson)
VACCINATION CERTIFICATES-PUBLIC VACCINATORS (IRELAND)-Question, Dr.
Tanner; Answer, The President of the Local Government Board (Mr.
Ritchie) .. ..
PRISONS (IRELAND)-CASE OF DANIEL ALLEN-Question, Dr. Tanner; An-
swer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach)
POST OFFICE-RATES OF POSTAGE BETWEEN ENGLAND AND THE COLONIES-
Questions, Mr. Henniker Heaton; Answers, The Postmaster General
(Mr. Raikes) ...
LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACTs-NEWCASTLE GUARDIANS-SCHEME AT ABBEY-
FEALE-Question, Mr. William Abraham (Limerick, W.); Answer,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach)
ADMIRALTY-MR. C. J. Cox, PRINCIPAL CLERK-Question, Sir Richard
Temple; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Forwood) ..
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-EX-CONSTABLE EDWARD M'ENTER--Question,
Sir Thomas Esmonde; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir
Michael Hicks-Beach)
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-PIER AT ENNISCRORIE, CO.
SLIGO-Questions, Mr. Sexton, Mr. P. M'Donald; Answers, The Secre-
tary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson)
LAW AND POLICE (IRELAND)-ACTION OF THE POLICE AT BALLYRUSH, CO.
'SLIGoo-Question, Mr. Sexton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .
TRADE AND COMMERCE-FOREIGN LABOUR IN THE TOWER HAMLETS-THE
CENSUS-Question, Captain Colomb; Answer, The Secretary to the
Board of Trade (Baron Henry De Worms)
AFRICA (SOUTH)--ANNEXATION OF NATIVE TERRITORY-THE PONDOS AND
XEsIBEs-Question, Sir George Campbell; Answer, The Secretary of
State for the Colonies (Mr. E. Stanhope) .
EGYPT-INTERNAL ADMINISTRATION-THE PAPERS-Questions, Sir George
Campbell, Mr. Dillon; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Sir James Fergusson)
WALES-THE AGITATION AGAINST TITHE-Questions, Mr. J. G. Hubbard,
Mr. Borlase; Answers, The Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment (Mr. Matthews)
INDIA-THE AFGHAN FRONTIER-THE RAILWAY TO QUETTA-Question, Sir
Henry Tyler; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir
John Gorst) ....
LAW AND JUSTICE-CODIFICATION OF THE CRIMINAL LAW-Question, Mr.
Howell; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph
Churchill) ... .
LAW AND JUSTICE-THE REVISED STATUTES-ISSUE OF A NEW AND CHEAP
EDITION Question, Mr. Howell; Answer, The Chancellor of the
Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill)
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT, 1884-EXTRA REMUNERATION TO POOR
LAW OFFICIALS-Question, Mr. O'Hanlon; Answer, The Chief Secre-
tary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach)
ARMY-CHARGES AGAINST THE ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT-Question, Sir
Henry Tyler; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H.
Smith) ....
EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY ACT-AMENDMENT OF ACT-Question, Mr. F. S.
Powell; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Matthews) ...







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

LSeptember 10.1 Page
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-CAPPAGH PIER, KILRUSH-Ques-
tion, Mr. Jordan; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir
Michael Hicks-Beach) ... 22
ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE-THE BAR LIBRARY-ELECTRIC LIGHTING-Ques-
tion, Mr. Pickersgill; Answer, The First Commissioner of Works (Mr.
Plunket) ... 23
POST OFFICE-MEDICAL STAFF, GENERAL POST OFFICE-DR. FIELD-Ques-
tion, Mr. Pickersgill; Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) 23
SUPPLY-POST OFFICE ESTIMATES-CLERKS IN THE SAVINGS BANK DEPART-
MENT-Question, Mr. Pickersgill; Answer, The Postmaster General
(Mr. Raikes) .. ...... 24
PRISONS ACT-SITE OF THE CLERKENWELL PRISONS Question, Captain
Penton; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Matthews) .... 24
ARMY-CHARGES AGAINST TIE ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT-Questions, Mr. E.
Robertson; Answers, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H.
Smith) .... 25
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-PENSIONS TO TEACHERS-Questions, Mr. Conway;
Answers, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Henry Holland) .... 25
IRISn LAND COMMISSION-RETURNs-Question, Mr. Parnell; Answer, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. 26
LAW AND JUSTICE (IREL.ND)-THE BARBAVILLA PRISONERS-Question, Mr.
Tuite; Answer, The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr. Holmes) .. 26
AGRICULTURAL LABOURERS (SCOTLAND)-APPOINTMENT OF A COMMISSION-
Question, Dr. Clark; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. A. J.
Balfour) ....... 28
PUBLIC BUSINESS-COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY-INCORRECT ENTRY IN VOTES-
Questions, Mr. Sexton; Answers, Mr. Speaker . 28

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-

SUPPLY-considered in Committee-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-
(In the Committee.)

CLASS II.-SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPARTMENTS.
(i.) 3,707, to complete the sum for Friendly Societies Registry.
(2.) 10,111, to complete the sum for Land Commissioners for England.-After
short debate, Vote agreed to .. 29
(3.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 175,956, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Board, including
various Grants in Aid of Local Taxation" ..... 35
lMoved, "That a sum, not exceeding 159,456, be granted, &c.,"--(Mr. Arthur
O'Connor :)-After debate, Question put, and negative.
Original Question again proposed .... .... 61
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 175,656, be granted, &c.,"-(Mr. Dillon :)-
After debate, Question put, and agreed to.
(4.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 6,239, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners in Lunacy
in England" ........ 86
Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 239, be granted, &c.,"-f-(r. iolloy :)--After
debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 67, Noes 123; Majority 56.
-(Div. List, No. 19.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
(5.) 29,081, to complete the sum for the Mint, including Coinage.-After debate,
Vote agreed to ........ 102







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 10.1] age
SUPPL---CIVIL SERVICE ESTInATES-Committee-continued.
(6.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 5,796, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National Debt Office" 13
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 5,296, be granted, &c.," (Sir Ueorge
Campbell :)-After debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 73, Noes
139; Majority 66.-(Div. List, No. 20.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
(7.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 25,303, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, connected with the Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks Act 120
After debate, Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 24,903, be granted, &c.,"-
(Mr. Alexander Blane :)-Question put, and negatived.
Original Question again proposed .. ..... 131
After short debate, Original Question put, and agreed to.
(8.) 11,190, to complete the sum for the Paymaster General's Office.
(9.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 4,014,
be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge
which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of
March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Establishments under the Public
Works Loan Commissioners" .. .. .... 132
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.
(1o.) 8,326, to complete the sum for the Record Office.
(Is.) 22,211, to complete the sum for the Registrar General's Office, England.
(12.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 241,424,
be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge
which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of
March 1887, for Stationery, Printing, and Paper, Binding, and Printed Books
for the several Departments of Government in England, Scotland, and Ireland,
and some Dependencies, and for the two Houses of Parliament, and for the Sala-
ries and Expenses of the Establishment of the Stationery Office, and the cost of
Stationery Office Publications, and of the Gazette Offices; and for sundry
Miscellaneous Services, including a Grant in Aid of the publication of Parlia-
mentary Debates" .. .. 135
After debate, Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 236,274, be granted, &c.,"-
(Mr. Labouchere :)-After further short debate, Question put :-The Committee
divided; Ayes 30, Noes 176; Majority 146.-(Div. List, No. 21.)
Original Question again proposed ... .... 149
After short debate, Original Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 10,043, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Her Majesty's Woods, Forests,
and Land Revenues, and of the Office of Land Revenue Records and Inrolments" 151
Moved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"-
(Mr. Dillon:)-After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported upon 3Monday next; Committee also report
Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

SUPPLY-REPORT-Resolutions [9th September] reported .... 153
Resolutions 1 to 15, inclusive, agreed to.
Resolution 16 read a second time.
Moved, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Re-
solution,"--(Mr. Jackson:)-After short debate, Question put:-The
House divided; Ayes 129, Noes 50; Majority 79.-(Div. List, No. 22.)

Disturbances at Belfast Inquiry Bill [Bill 351-
Order for Committee read:-Moved, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave
the Chair,"-(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. .. .. 157






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

LSeptember 10.1 Page
Disturbances at Belfast Inquiry Bill-continued.
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to:-Bill considered in Com-
mittee.
Moved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit
again,"-(Sir Mlichael Bicks- Beach:)--Question put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next..


MOTIONS.
-o.
Expiring Laws Continuance Bill-Ordered(Sir Herbert Maxwell, Mr. Jackson); pre-
sented, and read the first time [Bill 46] .. .. .. 159

Tenants Relief (Ireland) Bill-Ordered (ir. Parnell, Mir. Sexton, iMr. Dillon, Mr.
T. P. O'Connor, Mr. Pinkerton, Mr. Mahony); presented, and read the first time
[Bill 47] .. ...... .. 159
[2.0.]

LORDS, MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 13.
Secret Service (Repeal) Bill (No. 15)-
Moved, '"That the Bill be now read 2","--(The Marquess of Salisbury) .. 160
Motion agreed to:- Bill read 2- accordingly, and committed to a Com-
mittee of the Whole House on Thursday next. [4.30.]


COMMONS, MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 13.
QUESTIONS.
-0-
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-COURT OF BANKRUPTCY-MR. C. H. JAMES,
LATE OFFICIAL ASSIGNEE-Question, Mr. P. M'Donald; Answer, The
Attorney General for Ireland (Mr. Holmes) 161
LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACT -SLIGO UNION-INQUIRY UNDER TIE AcT-Ques-
tion, Mr. P. M'Donald; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir
Michael Hicks-Beach) ...... 162
THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE-RETURNS OF COST AND RECEIPTS FOR THE
SEVERAL DrvisloNS-Questions, Mr. Toailinsoi; Answers, The Secre-
tary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .... 163
LAND PURCHASE (IRELAND) ACT, 1885, SEC. 23 PURCHASERS OF GLEBE
LANDS-Question, Mr. M. J. Kenny ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. .. 163
MIDLAND GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (IRELAND)-POOR HARVESTMEN-Ques-
tion, Mr. J. F. X. O'Brien; Answer, The Secretary to the Board of
Trade (Baron Henry De Worms) .. ... 16
WAR OFFICE-THE FIRST ARMY Conrs-Question, Major General Golds-
worthy; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) 165
LAW AND JUSTICE (ENGLAND AND WALES)-THE MAGISTRATES OF DARTFORD
-SEVERE SENTENCES-Question, Mr. Shirley; Answer, The Secretary
of State for the Home Department (Mr. Matthews) 165
EXCISE DEPARTMENT-II[LAND REVENUE OFFICERS-Question, Mr. Tom-
linson ; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .. 166
LABOURERS (IRELAND) AT--THE KILMALLOCK GUARDIANS-INQUIRY UNDER
THE ACT-Question, Mr. Finucane; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) 166
LUNACY LAWS-LEGISLATION- Question, Mr. W. J. Corbet; Answer, The
SSecretary of State for the Homo Department (Mr. Matthews) .. 167






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
L[eptember 13.] Page
RAILWAYS (IRELAND)-PARSONSTOWN AND PORTUMNA BRIDGE RAILWAY-
Questions, Mr. Harris; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Jackson) .. .... 167
INDIA (NORTH-WEST PROVINCES)-NAYAT ALI KHAN-Question, Sir Thomas
Esmonde; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John
Gorst) .. .. .. 168
THE CIVIL SERVICE-THE PLAYFAIR SCHEME-Question, Sir Guyer Hunter;
Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) 169
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-DISTRICT INSPECTOR TILLY-Question, Mr.
Cox; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-
Beach) ... .. .. 170
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-THE LONDON SCHOOL BOARD-SALE OF LAND-
Question, Mr. Buxton; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir
Henry Holland) ...... 171
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-GREYSTONES HARBOUR-QUOS-
tion, Mr. W. J. Corbet; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Jackson) ..... 172
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-ARKLOW HARBOUR WoRKs-Question,
Mr. W. J. Corbet; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Jackson) .... 172
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-RIOTS AT RATHFRILAND, Co. DOWN-
Question, Mr. H. Campbell; Answer, The Attorney General for Ireland
(Mr. Holmes) .. .. .. 172
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (IRELAND)-POLLING PLACES IN THE NORTH
MONAGHAN DIVIsION-Question, Mr. P. O'Brien; Answer, The Attorney
General for Ireland (Mr. Holmes) .. 173
ARMY (INDIA)-THE TROOPS AT QUETTA-Question, Sir George Campbell;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Joh:i Gorst) .. 174
PosT OFFICE-TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH AUSTRALIA-Question,
Sir Samuel Wilson; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Colonies
(Mr. E. Stanhope) .. ...... 174
ARMY-CHARGES AGAINST TIE ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT- Questions, Major
Rasch, Mr. E. Robertson; Answers, The Attorney General (Sir Richard
Webster), The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) .. 175
WAR DEPARTMENT-GUNS-THE ORDNANCE SPECIAL COMMITTEE-Question,
Sir Henry Tyler; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H.
Smith) ..... 176
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-THE BABAVILLA PRISONERS-Questions, Mr.
Tuite, Mr. T. D. Sullivan, Mr. Sexton; Answers, The Attorney General
for Ireland (Mr. Holmes) .. .. .177
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-THE MEDICAL ADVISER AT CASTLEBAR-
Question, Mr. Cox; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir
Michael Hicks-Beach) ... 179
PRISONS (IRELAND) ACT, 1877-REFUNDING CERTAIN LEVIES---Question,
Mr. Cox; Answer, The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr. Holmes) 180
IRISH RIFLE CLUBS (BELFAST, &c.)-FIRING PRACTICE--Questions, Mr.
Sexton; Answers, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) 180
FACTORY ACTS-INSPECTORSIlPS-Question, Mr. Byron Reed; Answer, The
Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Matthews) .. 181
REGISTRATION OF ELECTORS (IRELAND)-SOUTH TYRONE REVISION COURT-
Question, Mr. P. O'Brien; Answer, The Attorney General for Ireland
(Mr. Holmes) .... .... 181
LIGIITIIOUSE ILLUMINANTs-EXPERIMENTS AT THE SOUTH FORELAND--Ques-
tion, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Secretary to the Board of
Trade (Baron Henry De Worms) .... 183
AnMS (IRELAND) ACT-HOUSE SEARCH AT BALLYRUSH, CO. SLIGO-- Qes-
tions, Mr. Sexton; Answers, The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr.
Holmes) .. ........ 184







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[September 13.] Page
INDIA-THE CIVIL SERVICE-THE COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY-Question, Sir
Roper Lethbridge; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India
(Sir John Gorst) .. .. .. 185
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-- APPAGH PIER, KILRUSH-QleS-
tion, Mr. Jordan; Answer, The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr.
Holmes) .. .. .... ..185
CHIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)--THE RIOTS AT BELFAST- COMPENSATION
FOR DAMAGE TO THE ROYAL HOSPITAL-Questions, Mr. Sexton; An-
swers, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill),
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. 186
CHANNEL FISHERIES-FISHERIES REGULATION, 1843-1)ETENTION OF ENG-
LISH FISHING SMACKS AT HAVRE-Question, Mr. Round; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Sir James Fergusson) .. 187


ORDERS OF THE DAY.
o--

SUPPLY-considered in Committee-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-

(In the Committee.)

CLASS II.-SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPARTMENTS.
(I.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 10,043, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge
which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of
March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Her Majesty's
Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, and of the Office of Land Revenue Records
and Inrolments .. ........ 188
After debate, Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 6,043, be granted &c.,"-(Mr.
Clancy :)--After further debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question again proposed .... .... 210
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 8,043, be granted, &c.,"--(Mr. Clancy :)-
Question put :-The Committee divided; Ayes 73, Noes 149; Majority 76.-
(Div. List, No. 23.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
(2.) 21,059, to complete the sum for Works and Public Buildings Office. -After
short debate, Vote agreed to .. .. .. .. 210
(3.) 10,000, to complete the sum for the Mercantile Marine Fund (Grant in Aid).
(4.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 30,000, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge
which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of
March 1887, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services .. 212
After short debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 159, Noes 54;
Majority 105.-(Div. List, No. 24.)
(g.) 3,393, to complete the sum for the Secretary for Scotland's Office.-After
short debate, Vote agreed to .... .. 215
(6.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 2,755, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Queen's and Lord
Treasurer's Remembrancer in Exchequer, Scotland, of certain Officers in Scotland,
and other Charges formerly on the Hereditary Revenue .. 220
Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 2,125, be granted, &c.,"-(Mr. Labouchere :)
-After short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question again proposed .... .... 223
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 1,466, be granted, &c.,"--(tr. Labouchere :
-After short debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 59, Noes 141;
Majority 82.-(Div. List, No. 25.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
(7.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 12,780, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge
which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of
March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Fishery Board in Scotland and
for Grants in Aid of Piers or Quays" .. .... 227
VS VOL. CCCIX. [THIRD SERIES.] [c]







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[September 13. j Page
SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-Committee-eontinued.
After short debate, Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 12,580, be granted, &c.,"
-(Mr. Hunter:)-After further debate, Question put :-The Committee divided;
Ayes 65, Noes 154; Majority 89.-(Div. List, No. 26.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
(8.) 2,482, to complete the sum for Lunacy Commission, Scotland.-After short
debate. Vote agreed to .... .. 255
(9.) 3,089, to complete the sum for the Registrar General's Office, Scotland.
(xo.) 3,340, to complete the sum for Board of Supervision for Relief of the Poor,
and for Public Health, Scotland.
(11.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 2,516, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge
which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of
March 1887, for the Salaries of the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and other Expenses .. 256
Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 2,489, be granted, &c.,"-(Mr. Arthur O'Con-
nor :)-After short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question again proposed .... .... 263
Moved, That a sum. not exceeding 953, be granted, &c.,"--(r. Thomas Russell:)
-After short debate, Question put :-The Committee divided; Ayes 36, Noes 178;
Majority 142.-(Div. List, No. 27.)
Original Question again proposed .... .. 266
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 1,727, be granted, &c.,"-(Dr. Tanner :)-
After short debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 55; Noes 179;
Majority 124.-(Div. List, No. 28.)
Original Question again proposed ...... .. 28
Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 1,427, be granted, &c.,"-(Mr. Clancy :)-After
short debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 62, Noes 172 ; Ma-
jority 110.-(Div. List, No. 29.)
Original Question again proposed .. .. 280
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 2,456, be granted, &c.,"-(Mr. Dillon :)-After
short debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 56, Noes 165 ; Ma-
jority 109.-(Div. List, No. 30.)
Original Question again proposed .. .. .. 285
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 2,154, be granted, &c.,"-(Mr. Chilly :)-After
short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 17,866, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Chief Secretary to the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland in Dublin and London, and Subordinate Depart-
ments" .... ...... 286
After short debate. Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
(12.) 819, to complete the sum for the Charitable Donations and Bequests Office,
Ireland.
(13.) 2,414, to complete the sum for the Record Office, Ireland.-After short debate,
Vote agreed to .... 287
(14.) 8,826, to complete the sum for the Valuation and Boundary Survey, Ireland.
Resolutions to be reported.

CLAss III.-LAW AND JUSTICE.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 29,041, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, of Criminal Prosecutions and other Law Charges in Ireland, including certain
Allowances under the Act 15 and 16 Vie. c. 83" .. 288
After short debate, Moved, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to
sit again,"-(Mr. Conybeare:)-After further debate, Question put:-The Com-
mittee divided; Ayes 54, Noes 150 ; Majority 96. -(Div. List, No. 31.)
Original Question again proposed ........ 311
Moved, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair,"-(Mr. John O'Coknor,
Tpperary, S. :)-Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 55, Noes 154;
Majority 99.-(Div. List, No. 32.)
Original Question again proposed:-Moeed, That the Chairman do report Progress,
and ask leave to sit again,"-(Mr. Hunter :)-After short debate, Question put:-
The Committee divided; Ayes 56, Noes 148 ; Majority 92.-(Div. List, No. 33.)
Original Question agaiii proposed .... .... 321







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 13.1 Page
SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATEs-Committee-continued.
Moved, That the Chairman do now leave the Chair,"-(Mr. Dilwhyn :)-After short
debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question again proposed .... .... 324
Moved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again : "-After
short debate, Motion agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow ; Committee also report Progress;
to sit again To-morrow.
SurrLY-REPORT-Resolutions [10th September] reported .. 325
Resolutions 1 to 9, inclusive, agreed to.
(10.) That a sum, not exceeding 8,326,be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the
sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during
the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887,for the Salaries and Expenses of the
Public Record Office" .. .. .. .. 325
Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 8,226, be granted, &c.,"-(lr. Dillon :)-After
short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Resolution agreed to.
Remaining Resolutions agreed to.
Submarine Telegraph Act (1885) Amendment Bill [Bill 45]-
Bill considered in Committee .... .328
After short time spent therein, Bill reported, without Amendment:-Bill
read the third time, and passed.
Expiring Laws Continuance Bill [Bill 46]-
Order for Second Reading read .... 329
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow. [3.45. A.M.]

COMMONS, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 14.
Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
POST OFFICE-ROBBERY OF MAILS ON THE RAILWAY BETWEEN LONDON AND
DOVER, ArRIL 8, 1886-Questions, Mr. J. G. Hubbard; Answers, The
Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes), The Chancellor of the Exchequer
(Lord Randolph Churchill) .... 329
RAILWAYS (INDIA)-EXTENSION OF THE RAILWAY SYSTEM-Question, Mr.
Maclure; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John
Gorst) .. .. .. 331
THE CONSTABULARY FORCES OF GREAT BRITAIN-SUPERANNUATION-Ques-
tion, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, The Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Mr. Matthews) .. 332
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-RIOTS AT RATEFRILAND, Co. DOWN-Ques-
tion, Mr. H. Campbell; Answer, The Attorney General for Ireland
(Mr. Holmes) .. .. .. .332
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-ScHOOL ACCOMMODATION-BOARD v. DENOMINA-
TIONAL SCHOOLS-Question, Mr. Maclure; Answer, The Vice President
of the Council (Sir Henry Holland) ..... 333
BOARD OF WORKS (IRELAND)-INCREASE OF GRANT FOR BUILDING SCHOOL-
HOUSES, CLARE ISLAND, CO. MAYO Question, Mr. Deasy; Answer,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .. 334
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-EXTRA POLICE, Co. MAYO-Question, Mr.
Deasy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-
Beach) .. ... .. 334
PooR ASYLUMS (IRELAND)-ASYLUM3 AT IMONAGIIAN Question, Mr. P.
O'Brien; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-
Beach) .... .. .. 334







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 14.] Page
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND) BUNDORAN PIER-Question,
Mr. Bernard Kelly; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Jackson) .. .... 35
POST OFFICE (TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT)-FOREIGN TELEGRAMS-THE SUB-
MARINE TELEGRAPH COMPANY-Question, Sir George Campbell; An-
swer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) .... 336
POST OFFICE-THE NORTHERN DISTRICT TELEPHONE COMPANY-Question,
Sir Henry Havelock-Allan; Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr.
Raikes) 338
METROPOLITAN POLICE DISTRICT-DOG REGULATIONS-Question, Mr. Norris;
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Matthews) .... ... .. 339
LAW OF COPYRIGHT-LEGISLATION-Question, Mr. Hunter; Answer, The
Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron Henry De Worms) .. 340
RAILWAYS (ENGLAND AND WALES)-IMPROVED COUPLINGS-Question, Mr.
W. J. Corbet; Answer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron
Henry De Worms) .. .. .. 340
BULGARIA -ABDICATION OF PRINCE ALEXANDER Questions, Sir Henry
Tyler, Mr. Dillon; Answers, Mr. Speaker, The Under Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs (Sir James Fergusson) .. .. 341
ARMY---CHARGES AGAINST THE ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT-Question, Mr. E.
Robertson; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H.
Smith) .. .. .. 342
TREATY OF BERLIN-ARTICLE LXI. ARMENIA Question, Mr. Shaw
Lefevre; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Sir James Fergusson) .... 343
THE PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE DISABILITIES OF THE POLICE FORCE-
Question, Mr. tafone ; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord
Randolph Churchill) .... .. 343
THE PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE ELECTORAL POWER OF WOMEN Ques-
tion, Mr. Lafone; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord
Randolph Churchill) .... .. 344
RAILWAYS- ACCIDENT ON THE LANCASHIRE AND YORKSHIRE RAILWAY AT
BROCKHOLEs-AUTOMATIC BRAKES-Question, Mr. Channing; Answer,
The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron Henry Do Worms) .. 344
IRELAND -- BOWLING GREEN MILLS, Co. GALWAY REPORT OF COLONEL
SMITH, R.E.-Question, Mr. Pinkerton; Answer, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .. ...... 345
IRELAND (SOUTH-WEST DISTRICT) ACTION OF SIR REDVERS FULLER -
Questions, Mr. M. J. Kenny, Mr. Cox; Answers, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. .. 346
SUPPLY-ORDER OF TAKING THE ESTIMATES-Question, Mr. Lewis; Answer,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .. 346
THE CURRENCY-THE ROYAL COMMISSION-THE MONEY ARTICLE OF THE
TIMES "-Question, Mr. T. Sutherland; Answer, The Secretary for Scot-
land (Mr. A. J. Balfour) .. .. .... 347
CHANNEL FISHERIES-FISHERIES REGULATION, 1843-DETENTION Or ENGLISH
FISIIING SMACKS AT HAVRE-Question, Mr. Round; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Sir James Fergusson) .. 348

QUEEN'S SPEECI-HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS reported .. 348

ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-0-
SUPPLY-considered in Committee-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-
(In the Committee.)







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 14.] Page
SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATEs-Committee-continued.
CLASS II.-SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPARTMENTS.
(r.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 17,866, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge
which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day
of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Chief Secre-
tary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland in Dublin and London, and Subordinate
Departments" .. .. ...... 348
After debate, Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 7,866, be granted, &c.,"-
(Mr. Tuite :)-After further debate, Moved, That the Chairman do report Pro-
gress, and ask leave to sit again,"-(Mr. Biggar :)-After further short debate,
Question put, and negatived.
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 7,866, be granted, &c.,"-(Mr. TJite:) .. 442
After debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 75, Noes 178; Majo-
rity 103.-(Div. List, No. 34.)
Original Question again proposed .. ...... 457
After debate, Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 16,666, be granted, &c.,"-
-(Mr. Lalor :)-After further short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question again proposed .. .. .... 482
After short debate, Original Question put, and agreed to
Resolution to be reported.
(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 68,688, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Board in Ireland,
including various Grants in Aid of Local Taxation .... 490
After short debate, Resolution to be reported To-morrow; Committee
also report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

Disturbances at Belfast Inquiry Bill [Bill 35]-
Bill considered in Committee .. ... 492
After short time spent therein, Bill reported; as amended, to be considered
To-morrow. [2.30.]


COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 15.

ORDER OF THE DAY.
-0-
SUPPLY-considered in Committee-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-
(In the Committee.)

CLASS II.-SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPARTMENTS.
(I.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 68,688, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Board in Ireland,
including various Grants in Aid of Local Taxation" .. .. 496
After debate, Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 65,688, be granted &c.,"-(Mr.
Jordan :)-After further debate, Question put, and negative.
Original Question again proposed ....... 545
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 65,198, be granted &e.,"-(Mr. Finucane:)-
After short debate, Question put, and negatived.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 18,559, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge
which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day
of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Public Works in
Ireland" .. .. .. .. .. 555
After debate, Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 17,559, be granted &c.,"-(lfr.
Donal Sullivan :)-Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 72, Noes 155;
Majority 83.-(Div. List, No. 35.)
Original Question again proposed... ., .... 575







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 15.] Page
SUPPLr--CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES Committee --ontinued.
Moved, "That the Vote be omitted,"-(Mr. Claney :)-After short debate, Motion,
by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 5,126, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Salaries and Expenses in the Department of the Registrar General of
Births, &c., and the Expenses of the Collection of Agricultural and other Statistics
in Ireland" .. 578
After short debate, it being a quarter of an hour before Six of the clock, the Chair-
man left the Chair to report Progress.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
Committee also report Progress; to sit again To-morrow. [5.50.]



LORDS, THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 16.
Their Lordships met;-and having gone through the Business on the
Paper without debate, [House adjourned] [4.0.]


COMMONS, THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 16.

QUESTIONS.
o--
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-EED BAY PIER, Co. ANTRIM-
Question, Mr. Biggar; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir
Michael Hicks-Beach) .. .... 582
JAPAN-CLAIMS OF BRITISH MERCHANTS ON THE JAPANESE GOVERNMENT-
Question, Mr. Gent-Davis; Answer, The 'Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Sir James Fergusson) .. 583
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS IN Co. CAVAN-Question,
Mr. Biggar; Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) .. 583
DEPRESSION OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY-REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION
-Question, Mr. Octavius Morgan ; Answer, The Chancellor of the
Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) 584
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER CONSTABLES ON DTY--Questions, Mr. Brad-
laugh; Answers, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Matthews) ... 584
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-THE POLICE AT GLIN, Co. LIMERICK-Ques-
tion, Mr. W. Abraham (Limerick, W.); Answer, The Attorney
General for Ireland (Mr. Holmes) ...... 585
LUNATIC ASYLUMS (IRELAND)-RICHMOND LUNATIC ASYLUM-Questions, Mr.
W. J. Corbet; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael
Hicks-Beach) 586
CENTRAL ASIA-MEDALS FOR THE ZHOB VALLEY EXPEDITION, 188--Ques-
tion, Mr. Donal Sullivan ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
India (Sir John Gorst) .. ..586
LAND PURCHASE (IRELAND) ACT, 1885 ADVANCES Question, Mr.
Hunter; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael
Hicks-Beach) 87
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (IRELAND)--POLLING PLACES IN SOUTH DONEGAL
-Question, Mr. B. Kelly; Answer, Tho Attorney General for Ireland
(Mr. Holmes) .. 587






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

LSeptember 16.] Page
GENERAL REGISTER HOUSE, EDINBURGH-ENGROSSING CLERKS-Question,
Mr. Sheehan; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) 588
POST OFFICE (IRELAND) TELEGRAPH STATION AT MAGUIRESBRIDGE, CO.
FERMANAGH-Question, Mr. H. Campbell; Answer, The Postmaster
General (Mr. Raikes) .... .. 588
WAR DEPARTMENT-MILITARY STORES AND EQUIPMENTS-CONSTITUTION OF
TIE COMMISSION-Question, Colonel Duncan; Answer, The Secretary
of State for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) .... 589
LAW AND JUSTICE-REGISTRATION OF FIREARMS-LEGISLATION-Questions,
Mr. Hulso, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answers, The Secretary of State for
the Home Department (Mr. Matthews) .. 590
CIVIL SERVICE ESTABLISHMENTS SALARIES Question, Mr. Pickersgili;
Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) 591
CIVIL SERVICE WRITERS-Question, Mr. Pickersgill; Answer, The Secre-
tary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .. ... 591
COAL MINES-THE LEIGH COLLIERY EXPLOSION-Question, Mr. Burt; An-
swer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Matthews) 591
PRISONS ACT (ENGLAND AND WALES) SITE OF COLDBATH FIELDS PRISON
-Question, Mr. J. Rowlands; Answer, The Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Mr. Matthews) .... 592
INLAND REVENUE DEPARTMENT-OUTDOOR BRANCH-Question, Mr. Hayden;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .... 593
INDIA (MADRAS) THE GARSTIN DACOITY CASE Question, Mr. Patrick
O'Brien; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John
Gorst) .. .. .. 593
POST OFFICE-MAJOR AND MINOR DEPARTMENTS-Questions, Mr. Wootton
Isaacson; Answers, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) 594
MERCANTILE MARINE-COASTING LIGHT DUES IN TIIH CHANNEL-BUNKER
CoAL-Questions, Mr. Gourley, Mr. Donkin; Answers, The Secretary to
the Board of Trade (Baron Henry De Worms) .. 595
LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACT INQUIRY AT KILMALLOCK UNDER THE ACT-
Question, Mr.W. Abraham (Limerick, W.); Answer, The Chief Secre-
tary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .... 597
EDUCATION (IRELAND)-LIMERICK MODEL SCHOOL-Question, Mr. H. J.
Gill; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-
Beach) ...... .... 597
IRELAND BOWLING GREEN MILLS, Co. GALWAY REPORT OF COLONEL
SMITH, R.E.-Question, Mr. Pinkerton; Answer, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .. .... 597
RIVER POLLUTION-POLLUTION OF THE THAMES-HOUSE BOATS-Question,
Mr. H. S. Wright; Answer, The President of the Local Government
Board (Mr. Ritchie) .. .. 598
INLAND REVENUE-HOUSE BOATS--EXEMPTION FROM IMPERIAL AND LOCAL
TAXATION-Questions, Mr. H. S. Wright, Mr. Dixon-Hartland; An-
swers, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill),
The President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Ritchie) .. 599
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)--FINTONA COURTHOUSE-MR. SPROULE, J.P.--
Question, Mr. Dillon; Answer, The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr.
Holmes) ........ 599
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY DISTRICT INSPECTOR DAVIS OF LOUGIREA,
Co. GALWAY-ALLEGED REFLECTION ON CATHOLIC CLERGYMEN-Ques-
tions, Mr. Sheehy; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir.
Michael Hicks-Beach) .. .. ... 600
CHANNEL FISIIERIES-FISHERIES REGULATION, 1843-DETENTION OF ENG-
LISH FISHING SMACKS AT HAVRE-Question, Mr. Round; Answer, The
Under Secretary.of State for Foreign Affairs (Sir James Fergusson) 600







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ September 16.1 Page
MERCANTILE MARINE-UNCLAIMED WAGES OF SEAMEN--Question, Colonel
Hill; Answer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron Henry De
Worms) .... 601
WAR DEPARTMENT-ARMY QUARTERMASTEBS-Question, Colonel Duncan;
Answer, The Financial Secretary, War Office (Mr. Brodrick) .. 601
INDIA- THE COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICES -THE UNCOVENANTED
CIVIL SERVICE-Question, Sir Roper Lethbridge; Answer, The Under
Secretary of State for India (Sir John Gorst) 602
PoST OFFICE-INSURANCE OF REGISTERED LETTERS-Question, Mr. Watt;
Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) 602
POST OFFICE -POSTAGE RATES TO THE AUSTRALIAN COLONIES- Question,
Lord Henry Bruce; Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) .. 603
ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CIVIL SERVICES-THE DIPLOMATIC AND CON-
SULAR SERVICES-Question, Mr. Pickersgill; Answer, The Chancellor
of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .... 603
PUBLIC BUSINESS-ORDER OF SUPPLY-THE VOTE FOR THE ROYAL IRISH
CoNSTABULARY-Question, Mr. Sexton; Answer, The Chancellor of the
Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .... .. 604


ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-
SUPPLY-considered in Committee-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-
(In the Committee.)
CLASS II.-SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPARTMENTS.
(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 5,126, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Salaries and Expenses in the Department of the Registrar General of
Births, &c., and the Expenses of the Collection of Agricultural and other Statistics
in Ireland" .. .. .. 604
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 5,106, be granted, &c.,"-(Mr. Arthur
O'Connor :)-After short debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 76,
Noes 136; Majority 60.-(Div. List, No. 36.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.

CLASS III.-LAW AND JUSTICE.
(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 29,041, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, of Criminal Prosecutions and other Law Charges in Ireland, including
certain Allowances under the Act 15 and 16 Vie. c. 83 .. .. 614
After long debate, Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 22,041, be granted, &c.,"-
(Mr. Sheehy :) After further debate, Moved, That the Chairman do report
Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"-(Colonel Nolan :)-After further short
debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Question again proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 22,041, be granted, &c.,"
-(Mr. Sheehy :)-After debate, Question put :-The Committee divided; Ayes 75,
Noes 162; Majority 87.-(Div. List, No. 37.)
Original Question again proposed .... .. .. 687
Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 26,791, be granted, &c.,"-(Mr. Alexander
Blane':)-After short debate, Question put, and negatived.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
(3.) 38,861, to complete the sum for the Supreme Court of Judicature in Ireland.
After short debate, Vote agreed to 695
(4.) 7,835, to complete the sum for Registry of Deeds, Ireland.-After short de-
bate, Vote agreed to .. .. 696
(5.) 1,163, to complete the sum for Registry of Judgments, Ireland.
(6.) 26,613, to complete the sum for the Irish Land Commission.-After short de-
bate, Vote agreed to .. .... 699







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

.September 16.1 Page
SUPPLY-CITIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-Committee-continuedd
(7.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 54,450
(including a Supplementary sum of 8,763), be granted to Her Majesty, to com-
plete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment
during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries, Allowances,
and Expenses of various County Court Officers, and of Magistrates in Ireland, and
of the Revising Barristers of the City of Dublin" .. 699
fMved, That a sum, not exceeding 53,450 (including a Supplementary sum of
8,763), be granted, &c.,"-(Mr. John O'Connor :)-After short debate, Moved,
That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"-(Mr.
Clancy :)-After further short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
After further short debate, Question put :-The Committee divided; Ayes 54, Noes
188 ; Majority 134.-(Div. Dist, No. 38.)
Original Question again proposed ...... .. 721
After short debate, Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 53,950 (including a Sup-
plementary sum of 8,763), be granted, &c.,"-(Mr. M. J. Kenny :)-After further
short debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 57, Noes 171; Ma-
jority 114.- (Div. List, No. 39.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
(8.) 60,632, to complete the sum for Dublin Metropolitan Police.
(9.) 70,886, to complete the sum for Prisons, Ireland.-After short debate, Vote
agreed to .... ... 734
Moved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"-(Mr.
Jackson :)-After short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

CLASS IV.-EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART.
(io.) 1,322,989, to complete the sum for Public Education.-After short debate,
Vote agreed to .... ..743
(iI.) 170,043, to complete the sum for the Science and Art Department.-After
short debate, Vote agreed to ... 751
(12.) 77,285, to complete the sum for the British Museum.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 3,607, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge
which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of
March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National Gallery ".. 760
After short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
(13 ) 7,400, to complete the sum for Learned Societies and Scientific Investigation.
-After short debate, Vote agreed to ...... 761
(r4.) 6,152, to complete the sum for the London University.
(is.) 6,0C0, to complete the sum for the University College, Wales.
(16.) 1,837, to complete the sum for Deep Sea Exploring Expedition (Report).-
After short debate, Vote agreed to ..... 762
Moved, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"-(Mr.
Jackson :)-Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow ; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

SUPPLY-REPORT-Resolutions [15th September] reported .. .. 763
After short debate, Resolutions agreed to. [4.0 A.M.]


COMMONS, FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 17.

Q UIE S T1 0 N S.
-o-
WAR OFFICE (ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT)-THE STOREKEEPERS AT PURFLEET-
Question, Major Rasch; Answer, The Surveyor General of Ordnance
(Mr. Northcote) ........ 764
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-KILRUSH PETTY SESSIONS-ILLEGAL FISHING
-CASE OF MR. SIMON M'AULIFFE-Question, Mr. Cox; Answer, The
Attorney General for Ireland (Mr. Holmes) .. .. 765
WAR OFFICE-CAMIPAIGN IN TIE SOUDAN-SUPPLY OF ARMS AND STORES-
Questions, Mr. De Lisle; Answers, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
W. H. Smith) .. .... .. 765


VOL. CCCIX. [THIRD SERIES.]


E ( 1






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
f September 17.1 Page
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-THE SUB-POSTMASTER OF STRADBALLY, CO. WATER-
FORD Question, Mr. P. J. Power; Answer, The Postmaster General
(Mr. Raikes) .. .. .. .. .. 766
LAND PURCHASE (IRELAND) ACT, 1885 ADVANCES TO TENANTS FOR PUR-
CHASE OF HOLDINGS-Question, Mr. Mahony; Answer, The Chief Secre-
tary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. 767
LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACT THE SCHEME FOR THE OLDCASTLE UNION -
THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD INQUIRY UNDERt THE ACT-Question,
Mr. Mahony; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael
Hicks-Beach).. .... 767
LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACT-SCHEMES IN THE ARDEE UNION-THE LOCAL
GOVERNMENT BOARD INQUIRY UNDER THE ACT-Question, Mr. T. P.
Gill; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-
Beach) .... .. .. 768
PRISONS (IRELAND)-KILKENNY GAOL-RELIGIOUS PROVISION FOR PRESBY-
TERIAN PRISONERS-Questions, Mr. T. W. Russell; Answers, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .... 768
POST OFFICE POSTMASTERS AND MASTERS OF SUB-OFFICES-SALARIES-
Question, Mr. Beadel; Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) 770
POST OFFICE (IRELAND) (NORTHERN DIVISION) ALLOWANCES TO POST-
MASTERS, &C., AT HEAD POST OFFICES-Question, Mr. Sheehan; An-
swer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) .... 771
PosT OFFICE (IRELAND) MR. W. AHERN, POSTAL SURVEYOR OF THE
NORTHERN DIVISION-Question, Mr. Sheehan; Answer, The Postmaster
General (Mr. Raikes) .. .. .. .. 772
MERCANTILE MARINE FUND-FINANCIAL POSITION-Question, Mr. Donkin;
Answer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron Henry De
Worms) ....... 773
ARMY (ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT)-PURCHASE OF 100-TON GUNs-Question,
Colonel Hughes-Hallett; Answer, The Surveyor General of Ordnance
(Mr. Northcote) .. ...... 773
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-ARMS OF THE ARTILLERY VOLUNTEERS-Ques-
tion. Mr. Mallock; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W.
H. Smith) ........ 774
ARMY (IRELAND)-THE RIOTS AT BELFAST-SPECIAL ALLOWANCES TO TROOPS
EMPLOYED-Question, Captain M'Calmont; Answer, The Secretary of
State for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) ..... 774
POST OFFICE (IRELAND) (TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT) CHARLESTOWN, CO.
MAYo-Question, Mr. Dillon; Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr.
Raikes) .... .... .. 774
LUNATIC ASYLUMS (IRELAND)-CENTRAL LUNATIC ASYLUM, DUNDRUM-AD-
VERTISEMENT FOR A KITCHENMAID-Question, Mr. Donal Sullivan ; An-
swer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. 775
COAL MINES THE DEAN LANE COLLIERY EXPLOSION Question, Mr.
Burt; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Matthews) ......... 776
PUBLIC HEALTH-GIPSY-VAN AND TRAVELLING CHILDREN-Question, Mr.
Burt; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Henry
Holland) ......... 776
RIGHT HON. JOSEPH CHAMBERLAIN, M.P.-POLICE PROTECTION-Question,
Mr. H. Campbell; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment (Mr. Matthews) .. .. .. .. 777
IRELAND-THE BREHON LAW-RE-CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMISSION-Ques-
tions, Mr. T. P. Gill, Mr. M. J. Kenny; Answers, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .. .. . 777
INLAND NAVIGATION AND DRAINAGE (IRELAND)-THE LOWER BANN-Ques-
tion, Mr. Pinkerton; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Jackson) ... .. .... 778







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ September 17.] Page
THE CURRENCY, &C.-CONSTITUTION OF THE CoMMISSIoN-Question, Mr. J.
M. Maclean; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Ran-
dolph Churchill) .... 779
EGYPT-RE-ORGANIZATION, &o.-SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF-Questions, Mr.
William Redmond, Sir George Campbell, Mr. Dillon; Answers, The
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .. 779
POST OFFICE (IRELAND) CASE OF -- MOLONEY, POSTMASTER OF KILDY-
sART-Question, Mr. Jordan; Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr.
Raikes) .. .. .. 781
NAVY-H.M.S. BELLEISLE "--Question, Sir Thomas Esmonde ; Answer,
Lord Charles Beresford (A Lord of the Admiralty) .. 782
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-SESSIONAL CROWN SOLICITOR, Co. FERMIANAGII
-Question, Mr. Jordan ; Answer, The Attorney General for Ireland
(Mr. Holmes) .. .. .. .. 782
INDIA NATIVE STATES TIIE GAEKWAR OF BARODA Question, Dr.
Tanner; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John
Gorst) .. .. .. 783
ARMY (INDIA)--MEDICAL DEPARTMENT-SURGEONS-Question, Dr. Tanner;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John Gorst) 783
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND) THE REV. MR. FAHY Questions, Mr.
Hayden, Mr. Tuite; Answers, The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr.
Holmes) .... .. .. .. 784
POST OFFICE-THE GENERAL POST OFFICE-VACANCIES IN THE SORTING
OFFICES-Question, Mr. Crilly; Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr.
Raikes) .... .... .. 784
METROPOLITAN POLICE-REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE-Question, Mr. C. E.
Hamilton; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Matthews) .. .. 785
ARMY (ORDNANCE DEPARTMIENT)-DEFECTIVE GUNS-Question, Sir Guyer
Hunter; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) 786
POST OFFICE-POSTAGE RATES AND CHARGES TO THE AUSTRALIAN COLONIES
-Question, Sir Samuel Wilson; Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr.
Raikes) .. .. .... .. 786
SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE-THE jEGEAN SEA-RUMOURS OF BRITISH ANNEX-
ATION-Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, The Under Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs (Sir James Fergusson) .... 786
PARLIAMENT- BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE- MINISTERIAL STATEMENT- TEN-
ANTS RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL Questions, Mr. John Morley, Mr.
Labouchere, Sir George Campbell; Answers, The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) ...... 787
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-RIOT AT GALWAY-ALLEGED CASUALTY-
Question, Mr. T. W. Russell; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .... .. 788

PARLIAMENT DEBATE ON TIIE ADDRESS-Personal Explanation, Mr.
Mahony .. .. .... .. 788


ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
---
SUPPLY-considered in Committee-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-
(In the Committee.)
CLASS III.-LAW AND JUSTICE.
(r.) 542,153, to complete the sum for the Constabulary, Ireland.-After debate,
Vote agreed to ... .... 789







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[September 17.] Page
SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-Committee--continued.

CLASS IV.-EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND AlT.
(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 3,607, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National Gallery" .. 828
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 3,307, be granted, &c.,"-(Sir George Campbell:)
-After short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question again proposed .... .... 885
After short debate, Original Question put, and agreed to.
(3.) 1,161, to complete the sum for the National Portrait Gallery.-After short
debate, Vote agreed to .... .. 837
(4.) 184,263, to complete the sum for Public Education, Scotland.-After debate,
Vote agreed to ....... 838
(5.) 8,508, to complete the sum for Universities, &c. in Scotland.-After debate,
Vote agreed to .... .. .... 866
(6.) 500, to complete the sum for the National Gallery, &c., Scotland.
(7.) 258,073, to complete the sum for Public Education, Ireland.-After debate,
Vote agreed to .. ........ 867
(8.) 945, to complete the sum for Teachers' Pension Office, Ireland.
(9.) 270, to complete the sum for the Endowed School Commissioners, Ireland.
(so.) 701, to complete the sum for the National Gallery of Ireland.
(rI.) 8,528, to complete the sum for Queen's Colleges, Ireland.-After short debate,
Vote agreed to .... .. .... 889
(12.) 520, to complete the sum for the Royal Irish Academy.-After short debate,
Vote agreed to .. .... .. 801

CLASS V.-FOREIGN AND COLONIAL SERVICES.
(13.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 62,010, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for the Expenses of Her Majesty's Embassies and Missions Abroad .. 892
Moved, "That a sum, not exceeding 58,010. be granted &c.,"- (Sir George Campbell :)
-After debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 54, Noes 158;
Majority 104.-(Div. List, No. 40.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
(14.) 46,486, to complete the sum for Consular Services.
(I5.) 4,160, to complete the sum for Slave Trade Services.
(16.) 2,005, to complete the sum for the Suez Canal (British Directors).
(i7.) 13,116, to complete the sum for Colonies, Grants in Aid.
(18.) 69,637, to complete the sum for South Africa and St. Helena.-After short
debate, Vote agreed to ........ 907
(19.) 13,050, to complete the sum for Subsidies to Telegraph Companies
(20.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 1,000, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887. as a Grant in Aid of the Revenue of the Island of Cyprus" .. 914
After short debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 148, Noes 47 ; Ma-
jority 101.-(Div. List, No. 41.)

CLASS VI.-NON-EFFECTIVE AND CHARITABLE SERVICES.
(21.) 123,928, to complete the sum for Superannuation and Retired Allowances.
(22.) 4,200, to complete the sum for Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, &c.
(23.) 485,000, to complete the sum for Pauper Lunatics, England.
(24.) 2,000, to complete the sum for Pauper Lunatics, Scotland.
(25.) 800, to complete the sum for Pauper Lunatics, Ireland.
(26.) 7,658, to complete the sum for Hospitals and Infirmaries, Ireland.
(27.) 1,000, to'complete the sum for Savings Banks and Friendly Societies Deficiency.
(28.) 1,111, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances,
Great Britain.
(29.) 1,303, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances,
Ireland.

CLASS VII.-MISCELLANEOUS.
(3o.) 13,331, to complete the sum for Temporary Commissions.







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[ September 17.1 .Pag
SuPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-Committee-continued.
(31.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 2,802, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March
1887, for certain Miscellaneous Expenses" .. .916
After short debate, Question put: -The Committee divided; Ayes 140, Noes 48 ; Ma-
jority 92.-(Div. List, No. 42.)
REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
(32.) 536,057, to complete the sum for Customs.
(33.) 1,057,506, to complete the sum for Inland Revenue.
(34.) 3,118,995, to complete the sum for the Post Office.
(35.) 335,663, to complete the sum for the Post Office Packet Service.--After short
debate. Vote agreed to ........ 919
(36.) 775,510, to complete the sum for the Post Office Telegraphs.
CLASS III.-LAw AND JUSTICE.
(37.) 1,680, Supplementary, for Revising Barristers, England.
(38.) 3,930, for the Crofters' Commission.
CLASS IV.-EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ArT.
(39.) 5,000, for the Royal University of Ireland.
CLASS VII.-MISCELLANEOUS.
(40.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 14,786, be
granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of pay-
ment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the repayment to
the Civil Contingencies Fund of certain Miscellaneous Advances" 920
Moved, That a sum, not exceeding 14,172, be granted, &c.,"-(-Mr. Labouchere :)-
After short debate, Question put:-The Committee divided; Ayes 48, Noes 126;
Majority 78.-(Div. List, No. 43.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

SUPPLY-REPOT T-Resolutions [16th September] reported .. 925
Resolutions 1 to 5, inclusive, agreed to.
Resolution 6 read a first and second time:-1Moved, "That this House
doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution:"-After short
debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions 7 and 8 agreed to.
Resolution 9 read a first and second time:-Moved, That this House
doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution : "-After short
debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Remaining Resolutions agreed to.
WAYS AND MEANS-
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the
service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, the sum of 20,089,689
be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.
Resolution to be reported To-morrow. [3.0.]

COMMONS, SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 18.

Q QUESTION.
o-0-
POOR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)- AGED COUPLES IN WORKHOUSES -
Question, Mr. Charles W. Gray; Answer, The President of the Local
Government Board (Mr. Ritchie) .. .. 928







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 18.] Page

MOTION.
-o-
ORDERS OF THE DAY-
Ordered, That, on Monday next, the Order of the 3rd day of September, giving pre-
cedence to all stages of the Appropriation Bill, be suspended,-(Mr. Chancellor of the
Exchequer.)

ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-o-
SUPPLY--REPORT-Resolutions [17th September] reported ... 929
Resolutions 1 to 12, inclusive, agreed to.
(13.) "That a sum, not exceeding 62,010, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete
the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment
during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Expenses of Her
Majesty's Embassies and Missions Abroad."
EGYPT (FINANCE, &C.)--THE 5 PER CENT DEDUCTION FROM THE COUPONS
REPAYMENT BY ENGLAND Observations, Sir George Campbell;
Reply, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) 929
Resolution agreed to.
Resolutions 14 to 33, inclusive, agreed to.
(34.) That a sum, not exceeding 3,118,955, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete
the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment
during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and
Expenses of the Post Office Services, the Expenses of Post Office Savings Banks,
and Government Annuities and Insurances, and the Collection of the Post Office
Revenue" .. .. .. .. 934

POST OFFICE-THE MEDICAL STAFF-Observation, Mr. Pickersgill .. 934
PosT OFFICE-SUCCESS OF TIE SIXPENNY TELEGRAM SYsTEM-Observa-
tions, Mr. Shaw Lefevre .... .. 935
Resolution agreed to.
Remaining Resolutions agreed to.
WAYS AND MEANS-Resolution [September 17] reported, and agreed to.

MOTION.
-o--
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill-
Moved, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to apply a sum out of the Consolidated
Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand
eight hundred and eighty-seven, and to appropriate the Supplies granted in this
Session of Parliament,"- (Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer) .. 93
POST OFFICE-SUCCESS OF THE SIJXENNY TELEGRAM SYSTEM-Observa-
tions, Mr. Shaw Lefevre; Reply, The Postmaster General (Mr.
Raikes) .. .. .. .. .. 935
POST OFFICE THE MEDICAL STAFF Observations, Mr. Pickersgill,
Mr. Wootton Isaacson; Reply, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) 937
SEA AND COAST FISHERIES (IRELAND) TRAWLING IN BANTRY BAY--
GRIEVANCES OF THE TRAMMEL NET FISHERMEN-Observations, Mr.
Gilhooly; Reply, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-
Beach) ...... .... 947
Motion agreed to :-Bill ordered (Mr. Courtney, Jfr. Chancellor of the Exche-
guer, Mr. Jackson); presented, and read the first time. [1.30.]






TABLE OF CONTENTS.


LORDS, MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 20. Page
PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLs-Resolutions, The
Chairman of Committees (The Duke of Buckingham and Chandos) .. 948
Resolutions agreed to :- Ordered, That the said Resolutions be printed.
(No. 23.)
Disturbances at Belfast Inquiry Bill (No. 21)-
lMored. "That the Bill be now read 2',"-(The Earl Cadogan).. 951
Motion agreed to:-Bill read 2" accordingly; Committee negatived; Then
Standing Order No. XXXV. considered (according to Order), and dis-
pensed with; Bill read 3", and passed.
FISHERY BOARD (IRELAND)-REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS-RESOLUTION-
Moved, "That no assistance given by the Government to the Irish fisheries will
prove of permanent benefit unless the transport and a reduced fare of carriage for
fish to the English markets is duly provided for,"--(The Earl of Howth) .. 951
Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
RAILWAY BRAKES-LEGISLATION -- Question, Observations, Earl De La
Warr; Reply, The President of the Board of Trade (Lord Stanley of
Preston) .. .. 952
L4.45.]

COMMONS, MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 20.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
-o-
PRIVATE BILLS-Resolutions, The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr.
Courtney) .. 955
Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
METROPOLIS-STATUE OF JAMES II. IN WHITEHALL YARD-Questions, Mr.
W. G. C. Bentinck, Sir George Campbell; Answers, The First Com-
missioner of Works (Mr. Plunket) .. .. 957
METROPOLITAN IMPROVEMENTS-WIDENING OF MUSEUM STREET, BLOOMSBURY
-Question, Mr. Edwin De Lisle; Answer, The First Commissioner of
Works (Mr. Plunket) . .. .. 958
HACKNEY CARRIAGES (METROPOLIS) PRIVATE" OMNIBUSES Question,
Mr. Lawson; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment (Mr. Matthews) 959
ARMY (INDIA)-BRITISH MEDICAL SERVICE-Question, Mr. T. W. Russell;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John Gorst) .. 959
WESTMINSTER HALL (RESTORATION)-Question, Mr. Gent-Davis; Answer,
The First Commissioner of Works (Mr. Plunket) .. .. 960
METROPOLIS (SUBURBAN WATER SUPPLY) THE SUTTON WATERWORKS
COMPANY DANGER OF SUPPLY FROM PROPOSED NEW CEMETERY-
Question, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Secretary of State for
the Home Department (Mr. Matthews) ...... 961
THE CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION-ENGAGEMENT OF SUPERIOR OFFICIALS IN
FINANCIAL UNDERTAKINGS-Question, Sir George Campbell; Answer,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .. 962
LAND-SIMPLIFICATION OF TITLES AND TRANSFERS-Question, Mr. Egerton
Hubbard; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph
Churchill) ........962
LIGHTHOUSE ILLUMINANTS-EXPERIMENTS AT SOUTH FORELAND--TIE COR-
RESPONDENCE Question, Mr. T. W. Russell; Answer, The Secretary
to.the Board of Trade (Baron Henry De Worms) .... 963






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

LSeptember 20.] Paqg
LAW AND JUSTICE-MURDER OF A POLICE CONSTABLE AT DODWORTH, NEAR
BARNSLEY, LANCASHIRE -Question, Mr. Shirley; Answer, The Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Matthews) 963
CIVIL SERVICE WRITERS (IRELAND) Question, Mr. Peter McDonald;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .. 964
INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND) ACT SCHOOL AT KILRUSII, CO. CLARE-
Question, Mr. Jordan; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir
Michael Hicks-Beach) .... .. .964
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)--OFFICERS OF MILITIA Question, Mr. Dixon-
Hartland; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H.
Smith) .. .. .. 965
OPEN SPACES (METROPOLIS) THE GARDENS AT THE TOWER OF LNDON--
Question, Mr. Montagu; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
W. H. Smith) .... 965
POST OFFICE-PARCEL POST DELAYS IN TRANSMISSION Question, Sir
Thomas Esmonde; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir
Henry Holland) .. 966
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND) ARREST OF MR. MORTIMER DOYLE-Ques-
tion, Sir Thomas Esmonde; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. .. .. 966
POST OFFICE (IRELAND) SURVEYORS' CLERKS Question, Mr. Conway;
Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Henry Holland) 967
INDIA THE UNCOVENANTED CIVIL SERVICE PENSIONS Question, Mr.
King; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John
Gorst) .... .. 967
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) MRS. MORONY, MILTOWN MALBAY -
FICTITIOUS CHARGES Question, Mr. Jordan; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. 968
ADMIRALTY-SENIOR NAVAL WRITERS-Question, Dr. Tanner; Answer, The
Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Forwood) .... 968
ADMIRALTY-CHIEF OFFICERS OF THE COASTGUARD SERVICE-Question, Mr.
Crilly; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Forwood) .. 969
ROLLS OFFICE (IRELAND)-MR. T. F. M'CoNRY-Question, Sir Thomas
Esmonde; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .. 970
CROWN LAND REVENUES--WINDSOR FOREST AND PARK-FOOD FOR GAME-
Question, Mr. Labouchere; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Jackson) 970
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-MAIL SERVICE TO KILDYSART, Co. CLARE-QueS-
tion, Mr. Jordan; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir
Henry Holland) .. 971
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-FINTONA COURTHOUSE-MR. SPROULE, J.P.-
Question, Mr. Dillon; Answer, The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr.
Holmes) .. .. .971
QUEENSLAND NEWLY-DISCOVERED GOLD FIELD Question, Sir Richard
Temple; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. E.
Stanhope) .. ... .. 972
THE MAGISTRACY (ENGLAND AND WALES)-WORKING MEN MAGISTRATES-
Question, Mr. Philip Stanhope; Answer, The Attorney General (Sir
Richard Webster) .972
WATER SUPPLY (METROPOLIS)-LEGISLATION-Question, Mr. James Row-
lands; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph
Churchill) ..... .. 973
SCOTLAND-THE CROFTER COMMISSIONERS-PUBLIC SITTINGS-Question, Mr.
Macdonald Cameron; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. A. J.
Balfour) ..... .. 973
POST OFFICE (SCOTLAND)-COMMUNICATION BETWEEN DORNOCII AND BONAR-
BRIDGE-Question, Mr. Macdonald Cameron; Answer, The Vice Presi-
dent of the Council (Sir Henry Holland) .. 974






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
September 20.] Page
SCOTLAND-TIIE HEMPRIGG TRUSTEES, WIC --ENCROACIHMENT ON RIGHTS
OF WAY-Question, Mr. Macdonald Cameron; Answer, The Lord
Advocate (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald) .. .. .. 974
FISHERY BOARD (SCOTLAND)-PAY OF OFFICERS-Question, Mr. Macdonald
Cameron; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. A. J. Balfour) .. 975
BRITISI NORTH AMERICAN PROVINCES NEWFOUNDLAND DISTRESS IN
LABRADoR-Question, Mr. Gedge ; Answer, The Secretary of State for
the Colonies (Mr. E. Stanhope) .... 975
POST OFFICE (ENGLAND AND WALES) POSTAGE STAMPS DISTINCTIVE
COLOURs-Question, Mr. Dixon-Hartland; Answer, The Vice President
of the Council (Sir Henry Holland) ... 976
FRANCE AND MADAGASCAR-Question, Mr. Watt; Answer, The Under Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Atfairs (Sir James Fergusson) .. 976
WAR OFFICE (ORDNANCE DEPART rENT)-GUARANTEE OF GUNS--1Question,
Colonel Hughes-Hallett; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
W. H. Smith) ..... 976
DEFENCE OF BRITISH POSSESSIONS AND COMMERCE ABROA)OD-REPORT OF TIHE
ROYAL COMMIssoxN-Question, Captain Colonmb; Answer, The Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies (Mr. E. Stanhope) .. 977
POST OFFICE-TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION BETWEEN THE UNITED KINGDOM
AND THE AUSTRALASIAN COLONIES-Question, Captain Colomb; Answer.
The Vice President of the Council (Sir Henry Holland) 977
RAILWAY COMPANIES-RETURN OF RATEs-Question, Mr. Dixon-Hartland;
Answer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron Henry Do
Worms) ..... 978
PRIsoNS (IRELSND)--DEATH OF TIHOLMA FITZGERALD, A CONVICT, IN MOUNT-
JOY PRISON-Question, Mr. Sheehan; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) ..... 978
ELEMENTARY EDUCATIONABROAD-MR. MATTHEW ARNOLD'S SPECIAL REPORT-
Questions, Mr. Picton, Mr. Baumann; Answers, The Vice President of
the Council (Sir Henry Holland) .... 979
LAND LAw (IRELAND) ACT, 188 -TIIE BOARD OF WORnS-LOANS TO CERTAIN
TENANTS-Question, Mr. E. Harrington; Answer, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .... ... 980
MINES REGULATION (IRELAND)-INSPECTION OF TIE MONTEEN COLLIERY,
Co. KILIKENNY-Question, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Matthews) .. 980
OWNERS AND OCCUPIERS OF LAND (ENGLAND AND WALES)-INCIDENCE OF
TITIIES--Qustion, Mr. Kenyon; Answer, The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) ... 981
THE ROYAL COMMISSION ON PUBLIC DEPARTMENTs-Our-DOOR OFFICIALS OF
CusToMS AND EXCISE-Question, Mr. Matthew Kenny; Answer, The
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .. 981
THE LANDOWNERS OF LONDON-A RETURN-Question, Mr. Shaw Lefevre;
Answer, The President of the Local Government Board (Mr.
Ritchie) .. 982
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) RENEWAL OF THE RIOTS AT BELFAST -
Question, Mr. Ewart; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord
Randolph Churchill) ... .... 982
CHANNEL FISHERIES-FISHERIES REGULATION, 1843-VISIT OF FRENCH FISH-
ING SMACKS TO GREAT YARMOUTH Question, Sir Henry Tyler;
Answer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron Henry )e
Worms) ...... .. 982
PARLIAMENT BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-Question, Mr. Dillon; Answer,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .. 983
LAW AND JUSTICE -A COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEAL-LEGISLATION-Ques-
tion, Mr.. Shirley; Answer, The Attorney General (Sir Richard
W ebster) .. ...... .. b3
VOL CCCIX. [THIRD SERIES.] [ e







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ September 20.] Page
EVICTIONS (IRELAND)-THE LATEST STATISTICS-Question, Mr. Parnell;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. 984


ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-o-

Tenants Relief (Ireland) Bill [Bill 47]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(ifr. Parnell) .. 984
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "in the opinion of this House, it is inexpedient at the present time to make
any further alteration in the Irish Land Laws,"--(Mr. Penrose Fitzgerald),-in-
stead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question: "-After long debate, Moved, That the Debate be
now adjourned,"--(Mr. John Morley :)-Question put, and agreed to:-
Debate adjourned till To-morrow.

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time" .... 1073
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-IMPRISONMENT OF FATHER FAHY-Observa-
tions, Mr. Dillon; Reply, The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr.
Holmes:)-Debate thereon ...... 1073
Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 176, Noes 66; Majority 110.
-(Div. List. No. 44.)
Bill committed for To-morrow. [1.30.]


COMMONS, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 21.

Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
ARIY (AUXILIARY FORCES)--THE VOLUNTEERS-FINANCIAL CONDITION OF
REGIMENTS-THE CAPITATION GRANT-Question, Mr. Howard Vincent;
Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) .. 1088
MERCHANT SHIPPING ELECTRIC COMMUNICATION BETWEEN LIGHTSHIPS AND
TIE MAINLAND-Question, Colonel King-Harman; Answer, The Secre-
tary to the Board of Trade (Baron Henry De Worms) .. 1088
THE PARKS (METROPOLIS)--HYDE PARK-HOURS OF CLOSING-DISORDERLY
CIIARACTERS-Question, Mr. Shirley; Answer, The First Commissioner
of Works (Mr. Plunket) .. .. 1089
'POOR LAW (IRELAND)-THE GUARDIANS OF THE RATHDOWN UNION-
UNSANITARY STATE OF THE WORKHOUSE Question, Sir Thomas
Esmonde; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael
Hicks-Beach) .. .. 1090
HALL-MARKING-THE WATCH TRADE-Question, Captain Penton; Answer,
The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron Henry De Worms) .. 1090
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-SUB-POSTAL DISTRICT OF KILMURRY M'MAHON,
Co. CLARE-Question, Mr. Jordan; Answer, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Henry Holland) .... 1090
DISPENSARIES (IRELAND)-ELY DISPENSARY, DERRYGONNELLY, CO. FER-
MANAGH-Question, Mr. Jordan; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .... 1091






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

L September 21.j Page
WAR DEPARTMENT-RETIRED OFFICERS IN COLONIAL EMPLOYMENT-Ques-
tion, Sir Thomas Esmonde; Answer, The Secretary of State for War
(Mr. W. H. Smith) ... 1092
REGULATION OF RAILWAYS ACT, 1873 THE GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY
AND THE THAMES AND SEVEN CANAL NAVIGATION Question, Mr.
Holloway; Answer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron Henry
De Worms) .......... 1092
ARMY (DISCIPLINE) THE DEVONSIIIRE REGIMENT Question, Colonel
Blundell; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Matthews) ..... 1093
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-COURT OF BANKRUPTCY-THE LATE OFFICIAL
ASSIGNEE, MR. C. H. JAMES-Question, Mr. P. M'Donald; Answer,
The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr. Holmes) ... 1094
WAR DEPARTMENT-MARTELLO TOWER AT SEA POINT, DUBLIN BAY-Ques-
tion, Sir Thomas Esmonde; Answer, The Surveyor General of Ordnance
(Mr. Northcote) .... .. 1094
TIE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND) QUARTER SESSIONS AT TULLAMORE, KING'S CO.
-REMOVAL OF DOCUMENTS-Question, Dr. Fox; Answer, The Solicitor
General for Ireland (Mr. Gibson) .... 1095
THE CHARITY COMMISSIONERS-RE-CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMISSION-Ques-
tion, Mr. Macdonald Cameron; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer (Lord Randolph Churchill) ..... 1095
CITY or LONDON PAROCHIAL CHARITIES ACT, 1883-REPORT OF COMMISSIONERS
-Question, Mr. James Stuart; Answer, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Henry Holland) ..... 1096
POLICE (METROPOLIS)-THE WANDSWORTH POLICE CouRT-Question, Mr.
Octavius Morgan; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Matthews) .. 1096
COMMERCE AND AGRICULTURE-A SPECIAL CABINET DEPARTMENT-Question,
Colonel Hill; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Ran-
dolph Churchill) .... 1097
TEACHERS PENSION (IRELAND) ACT--MRS. J. KELLY, MOUNTFIELD, Co.
TYRONE, NATIONAL SCHooL-Question, Mr. M. J. Kenny; Answer,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. 1098
INCLOSURE OF HILL GROUNDS (SCOTLAND) ACTS-Question, Mr. Mason;
Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald) .. 1098
POST OFFICE (PARCEL POST)-CONVEYANCE OF PARCELS TO SOUTH AFRICA-
Question, Mr. Baden-Powell; Answer, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Henry Holland) .. 1099
GENERAL GORDON-TIE MEMORIAL STATUE FOR WELLINGTON PLACE-
Question, Mr. Whitmore; Answer, The First Commissioner of Works
(Mr. Plunket) ........ 1099
EGYPT-THE ARMY OF OCCUPATION-THE TROOPS AT ASSOUAN Question,
Mr. Buxton; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H.
Smith) .. ...... 1100
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND) THE PIERS AT BALTIMORE HARBOUR-
Question, Mr. Gilhooly; Answer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade
(Baron Henry De Worms) .... .... 1100
PoST OFFICE (IRELAND)-COMIUNICATION BETWEEN CAPE CLEAR AND SHORKIN
ISLANDS AND THE MAINLAND Question, Mr. Gilhooly; Answer, The
Vice President of the Council (Sir Henry Holland) .... 1101
POST OFFICE (IRELAND) -- SKIBBEREEN AND BALTIMORE MAIL CAR-Ques-
tion, Dr. Kenny; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir
Henry Holland) ........ 1101
PERU AND CHILI-THE PERUVIAN BONDHOLDERS' COMMITTEE- Question, Mr.
Hunter; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Sir James Fergusson) .... ... 1102






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 21.] Page
POLICE (METROPOLIS) OBSTRUCTION or TRAFFIC- STREET LECTURERS-
Question, Mr. Atherley-Jones; Answer, The Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Mr. Matthews) .. .. 1103
INDIA (MADRAS)--VIJIARAGIIAVA CHARIAII-Question, Mr.B. Kelly; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John Gorst) .. 1103
INDIA (MADRAS)-BOARD OF REVENUE-MADURA DISTRICT--Question, Mr.
B. Kelly; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John
Gorst) .. 1104
MINING RENTS AND ROYALTIES GENERAL OR SPECIAL LAWS ABROAD-
Question, Mr. P. Stanhope; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Sir James Fergusson) ...... 1105
WAAR DEPARTMENT-PURCHASE OF REMOUNTS FROM THE BRITISH COLONIES
-Question, Mr. Baden-Powell; Answer, The Secretary of State for
War (Mr. W. H. Smith) ...... 1105
GOLD AND SILVER (ROYAL COMMISSION) DUTIES ON GOLD AND SILVER-
Question, General Sir George Balfour; Answer, The Under Secretary
of ',.!, for India (Sir John Gorst) ..... 1106
ROYAL IRISI CONSTABULARY-PROSECUTIONS FOR DRUNKENNESS--CIRCULAR
OF TIIE INSPECTOR GENERAL-Question, Colonel Saunderson; Answer,
The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr. Holmes) .1106
PROPOSED COMMISSION ON TIE DEVELOPMENT OF THE RESOURCES OF IRELAND
-HARBOURS ON THE WEST COAST Question, Mr. P. M'Donald;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .. 1107
WAR DEIPARTMENT--WARLIKE STORES AND EQUIPMENT (ROYAL COMMISSION)
-Questions, Sir Henry Tyler, Major Rasch; Answers, The Secretary
of State for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) ... 1108
CHANNEL FISHERY REGULATIONS, 1843 AND 1868 ENTRY OF A FRENCH
FISHING SMACr INTO YARMOUTII-Question, Sir Henry Tyler; Answer,
The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron Henry De Worms) 1109
THE MAGISTRACY (IBELAND)-DR. BARRETT, J.P.-Question, Dr. Tanner;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .. 1109
ROYAL COMMISSION ON MINES SAFETY LAMPS Question, Mr. Paulton;
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Matthews) ... 1110
LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACT, 1881 TIE ROYAL COMMISSION NAMES 0o'
TIE COMMISSIONERS ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF TIE RESOURCES OF
IRELAND-Question, Mr. T. W. Russell; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) ...... 1111
LAW AND POLICE-- TREATMENT OF JOHN WVILLIAMS IN HOLLOWAY PRISON
-Question, Mr. Labouchere; Answer, The Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Mr. Matthews) .. .. 1111
CIVIL SERVICE WRITERS STATEMENT UPON THEIR CASE Question, Mr.
Pickersgill; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .. 1112
SALMON FISHERIES (SCOTLAND)-RIGHTS OF FISHING IN PERTIHSHIRE-
Question, Mr. E. Robertson; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Jackson) ... .. 1112
PosT OFFICE TELEGRAPHH DEPARTMENT) ANNUAL HOLIDAY TO TELE-
GRAPHISTs-Question, Mr. Sexton; Answer, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Henry Holland) .... 1112
IRELA-ND-COLLAPSE OF TIIE ALBERT BRIDGE, BELFAsT--Question. Mr.
Sexton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-
Beach) .. .. .. 1113
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-THE RIOTS AT BELFAST-GRAND JURY OF
AN'rTIInI-Question, Mr. Sexton; Answer, The Attorney General for
Ireland (Mr. Holmes) ...... .. 1114
ARMY CHARGES AGAINST THE ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT Question, Mr.
Waddy; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) 1115






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 21.] Page
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS-POLLING PLACES IN RURAL DISTRICTS--Ques-
tion, Mr. Waddy; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Matthews) .. 1116
POST OrFICE (IRELAND)-ACCO-MMNODATION AT GRANGEGEITH--Question, Mr.
O'Hanlon; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Henry
Holland) ...... 1116
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-COLLECTION OF SEED RATE-Question, Mr.
Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael
Hicks-Beach) .. 1117
RUSSIA-EXPORTATION OF SUGAR--CONTINUANCE OF BOUNTIES-Question,
Colonel Hill; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs (Sir James Fergusson) ... 1117
ARMY (DISCIPLINE) COURT MARTIAL AT CHATHAM Question, Colonel
Hughes-Hallett; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H.
Smith) .. 1118
LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACT- THE FERMOY UNION SCIHEMIE-INQUIRY UNDER
THE AcT Question, Mr. Hooper; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Sir Michael Ricks-Beach) .. 1118
CRIIE AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-THE RIOTS IN BELFAST ATTACK ON THE
DAVIS STREET POLICE BARRACKS-Questions, Mr. Ewart, Mr. Sexton;
Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) 1119
LAND LAW TRANSFER OF LAND LEGISLATION Question, Mr. Shaw
Lefevro; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph
Churchill) ....1120
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-THE MILITIA-EXAMINATION FOR LIEUTENANTS
-Question, Mr. Agg-Gardner; Answer, The Secretary of State for
War (Mr. W. H. Smith) .. .. .. 1121
WARLIKE STORES AND EQUIPMENT (ROYAL COMMISSION)-ORDNANCE STORE
D)EPARTMENT-Question, Mr. De Lisle; Answer, The Secretary of State
for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) .. 1121
SOUTH PACIFIC-DEPORTATION OF FRENCH CONVICTS TO NEW CALEDONIA-
Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, The Secretary of State for
the Colonies (Mr. E. Stanhope) 1122
HIGo COURT OF JUSTICE-PROBATE, DIVORCE, AND ADMIRALTY DIVISIONS-
Question, Lord Claud Hamilton; Answer, The Attorney General (Sir
Richard Webster) .... 1122
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-THEI SUB-POSTMASTER OF STRADBALLY, Co. WATER-
FORD-Question, Mr. P. J. Power; Answer, Sir Herbert Maxwell
(A Lord of the Treasury) ... 1123
METIROPOLIS---TE CITY OF LONDON LIVERY COMIPANIES-LEGISLATION-
Question, Mr. Pickersgill; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
(Lord Randolph Churchill) .. 1123
SOUTII-EASTERN EUROPE--AFFAIRS OF BULGARIA-ACTION OF THE GOVERN-
MENT-Question, Mr. Cremer; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .. .. 1124
OWNERS AND OCCUPIERS OF LAND-INCIDENCE OF TITIES-LEGISLATION-
Questions, Mr. Swetenham, Mr. J. G. Hubbard; Answers, The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .. .1125
THE BOARD OF TRADE JOURNAL "-CIRCULAR OF THE BOARD TO CHAMBERS
OF COMMERCE-Question, Mr. Mundella; Answer, The Secretary to the
Board of Trade (Baron Henry De Worms) 1125
LICENSED PUBLICANS (IRELAND)--SUPPLIES, &0. TO TIE CONSTABULARY-
Question, Mr. Finucane; Answer, The Attorney General for Ireland
(Mr. Holmes) .. .. 1126
INDIA (MADRAS PRESIDENCY)-ALLOWANCES TO THIIE GOVENOR-Question,
Mr. Sheehan; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir
John Gorst) ...... 1127







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 21.] Page
FISHIiNG BOATS ACT (1883) AMENDMENT BILL-Question, Mr. Heneage;
Answer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Baron Henry De
Worms) .. .. .. 1127
FISHERIES (ENGLAND AND WALES)-EAST COAST--ENCROACHMENT OF BELGIAN
TRAWLERS-Question, Sir Savile Crossley; Answer, The First Lord of
the Admiralty (Lord George Hamilton ...... 1128

MOTIONS.
-o0-
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (WEDNESDAY SITTINGS)-
Ordered, That the Standing Orders of the House relating to Wednesday Sittings be
suspended To-morrow,-(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
ORDERS OF THE DAY-
Ordered, That the Order of the Day for resuming the Adjourned Debate on the Second
Reading of the Tenants Relief (Ireland) Bill have precedence next after the Consoli-
dated Fund (Appropriation) Bill,--(3r. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)


ORDERS OF THE DAY.
----
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill-
Order for Committee read :-Moved, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair" .... ... 1129
LAND LxW--TRANSFER OF LAND-LEGISLATIoN-Question, Observations,
Mr. Shaw Lefevre; Reply, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord
Randolph Churchill) .. .. .. 1129
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS-POLLING PLACES IN COUNTIES-Observation,
Mr. Waddy; Reply, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Matthews) ........ 1130
Question put, and agreed to :-Bill considered in Committee .. 1131
After short time spent therein, Bill reported, without Amendment; to be
read the third time To.morrow.

Tenants Relief (Ireland) Bill [Bill 47]-ADJOURNED DEBATE-
[SECOND NIGHT]-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed
to Question [20th September :j-" That the Bill be now read a second
time : "-Question again proposed, That the words proposed to be left
out stand part of the Question: "-Debate resumed .. 1132
After long debate, Question put:-The House divided ; Ayes 202, Noes
297 ; Majority 95.
Division List, Ayes and Noes .... 1247
Words added :-Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
Resolved, That, in the opinion of this House, it is inexpedient, at the present time, to
make any further alteration in the Irish Land Laws.
[2.15.]

LORDS, WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 22.
Their Lordships met at Two o'clock.

House adjourned-during pleasure :-House resumed.






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 22.] Page
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill-
Read 1-; and to be read 21 To-morrow : and Standing Order No. XXXV. to be con-
sidered in order to its being dispensed with,-(The Lord Stanley of Preston.)
[10.45.1

COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 22.
Q QUESTIONS.
-o-

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE-THE PROROGATION-Observation, The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .... 1252
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-CASE OF-- RONIN, CONVICTED OF MOON-
LIGHTING"-Questions, Mr. Stack, Mr. Sexton; Answers, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .... 1252
THE MAGISTRACY (SCOTLAND) THE SHERIFF CLERK OF BERWICKSIIRE-
Question, Mr. A. L. Brown; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. H.
A. Macdonald) .. ..... 1253
HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES THE CADOGAN ESTATE, CHELSEA-
Question, Mr. Octavius Morgan; Answer, The Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Mr. Matthews) .... .. 1254
MINES (UNITED KINGDOM)-SCALE OF ROYALTIES OR MINE RENTS-Question,
Mr. Philip Stanhope; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Matthews) .. ..1255
POST OFFICE-POSTAGE OF UNPAID LETTERS-Question, Sir John Lubbock;
Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) .. .. 1256
PUBLIC HEALTH-WATER SUPPLY (METROPOLIS)-THE POPLAR DISTRICT-
Question, Mr. Pickersgill; Answer, The President of the Local Go-
vernment Board (Mr. Ritchie) ..... 1256
POOR LAw-FLOGGING AT THE HANWELL PAUPER SCHOOLS-Question, Mr.
Pickersgill; Answer, The President of the Local Government Board
(Mr. Ritchie) .. .... .. .1257
POOR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)-REMOVAL OF PAUPERS-Question, Mr.
Pickersgill; Answer, The President of the Local Government Board
(Mr. Ritchie).. ...... .1258
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-THE PARCEL POST-NON-PAYMENT OF SALARIES
OF SUB-POSTMASTERS AND LETTER RECEIVERS-Question, Mr. Clancy;
Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) .. .1258
INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND)-THE ASSISTANT COMMISSIONERS AND
CLERKS- Question, Mr. Clancy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .... .. 1259
CROWN LAND REVENUES-RICHMOND AND WINDSOR PARKS-FEEDING THE
GAME-Question, Mr. Labouchere; Answer, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Jackson) .... .. 1260
POST OFFICE-POSTAGE TO THE COLONIES--Question, Mr. Henniker Heaton;
Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) .... 1260
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-MILITIA QUARTERMASTERS Question, Mr.
Henniker Heaton; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. 'W.
H. Smith) .. ...... .. 1261
PUBLIC HEALTH (METROPOLIS)-METROPOLITAN ASYLUMS BOARD-Question,
Mr. J. Rowlands; Answer, The President of the Local Government
Board (Mr. Ritchie) .. .. .. 1261
LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACT-THE KILMALLOCK SCHEME--INQUIRY UNDER THE
AcT-Question, Mr. Finucane; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) .... 1262
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-DELIVERIES AT GRAIGUE, CO. KILKENNY-Ques-
tion, Mr. Chance; Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) .. 1262







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 22.] Page
DEBTORS (IRELAND) ACT-CLOSING OF OMAGH GAoL-Question, Lord Ernest
Hamilton ; Answer, The Attorney tioneral for Ireland (Mr. Holmes). 1263
ROYAL PARKS AND PLEASURE GARDENS-THE REGENT'S PARK-HOURS OF
OPENING-Question, Mr. Lawson; Answer, The First Commissioner of
Works (Mr. Plunket) ... .. .. 1263
THE LONDON SCHOOL BOARD-THE FEDERATED RADICAL CLUBS-PAYMENT OF
FEEs-Question, Mr. Baumann; Answer, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Henry Holland) .. .. 1264
BURMAT-THE INUNDATIONS AT MANDALAY- Question, Mr. W. F. Lawrence;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir John Gorst) .. 1265
THE NORTH AMERICAN FISHERY TREATIES -- Question, Mr. Gourley ;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Sir James
Fergusson) ...... 1265
LICENCES (IRELAND)-REFUSAL OF HOTEL LICENCE AT DINGLE-Questions,
Mr. E. Harrington; Answers, The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr.
Holmes) .. 1266
POST OFFICE-SIXPENNY TELEGRAMS-FINANCIAL RESULTS -Question, Mr.
Shaw Lefevre; Answer, The Postmaster General (Mr. Raikes) 1267
PARLIAMENT-THE PROROGATION RE-ASSEMBLING OF THE HOUSE-Ques-
tions, Mr. Shaw Lefevre, Sir George Campbell; Answers, The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .1268
PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURE-Quelstion, Mr. R. G. Webster; Answer, The
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .. 1269
POOR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)-LANDING OF DESTITUTE AND INSANITARY
ALIENS-THE GREEK GIPSIEs-Question, Mr. Grotrian; Answer, The
Secretary of State for the Homo Department (Mr. Matthews) .. 1269
ORDER OF 1THE DAY.
-o-
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill-
Moved, That the Bill be now read the third time" .. 1270
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (IRELAND)--TIIE DEBRY ELECTION-ACTION
OF THE RESIDENT MAGISTRATE AND POLICE OFFICIAL INQUIRY-
RESOLUTION-Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "in the opinion of this House, it is expedient and necessary that an official
inquiry should be held into the conduct of the resident magistrate and police in the
city of Derry on the 6th of July last, when it is alleged that, under the orders of the
resident magistrate, an unwarrantable attack was made by the police, with staves, upon
a number of respectable and orderly people who were assembled on the steps of the
Imperial Hotel, Londonderry, on the occasion of the declaration of the poll at the city
of Derry election on that day,"-(Mr. Charles Lewis,)-instead thereof .. 1270
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question: "-After debate, Question put:-The House divded;
Ayes 237, No 1 ; Majority 236.-(Div. List, No. 46.)
Main Question, That the Bill be now read the third time," again
proposed:-
MERCANTILE MARINE-SALVAGE LAws-SALVAGE OF DERELICT VESSELS-
SAILORS AND FISHERMEN ON THE EAST COAST Observations, Major
Rasch .. ...... .. 1287
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND)--TIE GLASGOW SCHOOL BOARD SYSTEM-Observa-
tions, Mr. Mason; Reply, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. A. J.
Balfour) :-Short debate thereon .... 1288
ARMY -- CHARGES AGAINST THE ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT Observations,
Sir Henry Tyler, Mr. Waddy; Reply, The Attorney General (Sir
Richard Webster) .... .... 1294






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 22.] Page
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-IMPRISONMENT OF FATHER FAHY-Obser-
vations, Mr. Dillon; Reply, The Attorney General for Ireland (Mr.
Holmes) :-Debate thereon.. .. .. 1302
SOUTH EASTERN EUROPE AFFAIRS OF BULGARIA ACTION OF THE
GOVERNMENT-Observations, Mr. Cremer; Reply, The Chancellor of
the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill):-Short debate thereon .. 1328
Main Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read the third time, and passed.

ADJOURNMENT-
Resolved, That this House will, at the rising of the House this day,
adjourn till Saturday,-(Mr. Chancellor of the Exckheuer.) L9.15.]

LORDS, THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 23.
ARMY-EFFICIENCY OF THE NEW RIFLE-INSTRUCTIONS TO THE COMMITTEE OF
INQUIRY-THE RESERVE FORCES-Question, Observations, The Earl of
Wemyss ; Reply, The Under Secretary of State for War (Lord Harris) 1340
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill-
Read 2- (according to order) ; Committee negative : Then Standing Order No. XXXV.
considered (according to order), and dispensed with : Bill read 3,, and passed.
[5.15.]

LORDS, SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 25.
PROROGATION OF THE PARLIAMENT--
The ROYAL ASSENT was given to several Bills; and afterwards HER
MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH was delivered to both Houses by the
LORD CHANCELLOR (pursuant to Her Majesty's Command.)
Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read.
After which,
THE LORD CHANCELLOR said-
My Lords, and Gentlemen,
By virtue of Her Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal,- to us and other Lords
directed, and now read, we do, in Her Majesty's Name, and in obedience to Her Com-
mands, prorogue this Parliament to Thursday the Eleventh day of'November next,
to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Thursday
the Eleventh day of November next.

COMMONS, SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 25.
Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
OFFICE or WORKS (FURNITURE DEPARTMENT)-MbEMORIAL OF ASSISTANTS-
Question, Mr. Lawson; Answer, The First Commissioner of Works
(Mr. Plunket) ........ 1351
ROYAL PARKS AND PLEASURE GARDENS-KEW GARDENS-Question, Mr.
Macdonald Cameron; Answer, The First Commissioner of Works (Mr.
Plunket) ........ .. 1352
INDIA-NAVANCORE-EXCLUSION OF M. MONTDAR-Question, Mr. Hunter;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Sir James
Fergusson) .......... 1353
WESTERN AUSTRALIA (LAW AND JUSTICE)-APPOINTMENT OF THIRD JUDGE-
Question, Mr. Deasy; Answer, The President of the Local Government
Board (Mr. Ritchie) .. .. .. .. 1353
VOL. CCCIX. [THIRD SERIES.] [ f







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[September 25.] Page
GREAT BRITAIN AND SPAIN-TREATY OF EXTRADITION-Question, Mr. F. S.
Stevenson; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Sir James Fergusson) ...... 1353
ACCESSION OF HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN-CELEBRATION OF TIE JUBILEE-
Question, Mr. Lawson; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
(Lord Randolph Churchill) .... 1354
PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND)-CONSTITUTION OF THE PROPOSED ROYAL COM-
MISSION-Question, Mr. Murphy; Answer, The Chancellor of the
Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .... .. 1354
EVICTIONS (SCOTLAND)-EVICTION ON THE CHISIOLm ESTATE, INVERNESS-
SHIRE-Question, Mr. Wallace; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer (Lord Randolph Churchill) .... 1354
PROROGATION OF THE PARLIAMENT- .. .. .. 1856
Message to attend The LORDS COMMISSIONERS
TABLE OF THE STATUTES, TITLE AND CONTENTS.


I I


* *




















HANSARD'S


PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

IN THE

FIRST SESSION OF THE TWBENTY-FOURTH PARLIAMENT OF THE

UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND

APPOINTED TO MEET 5 AUGUST, 1886, IN THE FIFTIETH

YEAl OF THE REIGN OF


HER MAJESTY


QUEEN


VICTORIA.


SECOND VOLUME OF THE SESSION.


HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, 10th September, 1886.


MINUTES.]-SrrPLY-considered in Committee
CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES; CLASS II. -
SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPART-
MENTS, Votes 13 to 25
Resolutions [September 9] reported.
PUBLIC BILLS Ordered First Reading -
Expiring Laws Continuance* [46]; Tenants'
Relief (Ireland) [47].
Second Reading Submarine Telegraph Act
(1885) Amendment [45].
Committee Disturbances at Belfast Inquiry
[35]--.r.p
Withdrawn-Employers' Liability [2].
VOL. CCCIX. [THIRD SERIES.]


QUESTIONS.
-o--
FRANCE-THE CUSTOMS LAW-
EXACTIONS AT THE PORT OF ROUEN.
MR. KING (Hull, Central) asked the
Under Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, Whether the attention of the
Government has been called to the man-
ner in which the French Customs Law
is enforced at the port of Rouen against
English vessels, whereby the captains
or owners of vessels are obliged to em-
ploy the local brokers on frivolous pre-
tences, and to pay fees amounting in
one case to two per cent. of the entire
freight; whether, in the case of the
British ship, Royal Minstrel, the Custom
House authorities insisted on the em-
ployment of a broker simply to translate




















HANSARD'S


PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

IN THE

FIRST SESSION OF THE TWBENTY-FOURTH PARLIAMENT OF THE

UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND

APPOINTED TO MEET 5 AUGUST, 1886, IN THE FIFTIETH

YEAl OF THE REIGN OF


HER MAJESTY


QUEEN


VICTORIA.


SECOND VOLUME OF THE SESSION.


HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, 10th September, 1886.


MINUTES.]-SrrPLY-considered in Committee
CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES; CLASS II. -
SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPART-
MENTS, Votes 13 to 25
Resolutions [September 9] reported.
PUBLIC BILLS Ordered First Reading -
Expiring Laws Continuance* [46]; Tenants'
Relief (Ireland) [47].
Second Reading Submarine Telegraph Act
(1885) Amendment [45].
Committee Disturbances at Belfast Inquiry
[35]--.r.p
Withdrawn-Employers' Liability [2].
VOL. CCCIX. [THIRD SERIES.]


QUESTIONS.
-o--
FRANCE-THE CUSTOMS LAW-
EXACTIONS AT THE PORT OF ROUEN.
MR. KING (Hull, Central) asked the
Under Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, Whether the attention of the
Government has been called to the man-
ner in which the French Customs Law
is enforced at the port of Rouen against
English vessels, whereby the captains
or owners of vessels are obliged to em-
ploy the local brokers on frivolous pre-
tences, and to pay fees amounting in
one case to two per cent. of the entire
freight; whether, in the case of the
British ship, Royal Minstrel, the Custom
House authorities insisted on the em-
ployment of a broker simply to translate







3 Post Offlee


the statement of one seaman, from whom
a statement was demanded, quite un-
necessarily, as all the ship's documents
were in the hands of the authorities, in
consequence of which the owners had to
pay a brokerage fee of 538 francs 50
centimes; whether French, Russian,
Dutch, Portuguese, and other vessels
are exempted from this exaction by the
authorities; whether English vessels are
entitled, under existing. Treaties, to be
placed on the same footing as French
and other vessels in this respect; and,
whether steps will be taken in the case
of the Royal Minstrel to vindicate the
rights of British shipowners against such
exactions ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF
STATE (Sir JAMES FERGUSSOIN) (Man-
chester, N.E.): The case referred to by
the hon. Member is correctly stated, and
no doubt involves great hardship, al-
though it does not appear that anything
has been done contrary to either law or
treaty. The ships of other nations are
equally liable to such exactions, but
often escape because the shipbrokers are
unable to act as interpreters of their
several languages. The question of ship-
brokerage in France has formed the sub-
ject of frequent representations to the
French Government, and the hon. Mem-
ber will find a full statement upon the
subject in a Parliamentary Paper, Com-
mercial, No. 35 (1884), page 10. Her
Majesty's Government will watch for a
suitable opportunity to make a further
attempt to procure some amendment of
the law. A recent decision of the French
Minister of Commerce will, I hope,
lessen somewhat the difficulties and ex-
penses of British shipowners; and I will
communicate it, with explanations on
the points adverted to by the hon.
.Member, to the owners of the Royal
Minstrel.

POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-THE POST-
MASTER AT KILDYSART,
CO. GLARE.
MR. JORDAN (Clare, W.) asked the
Postmaster General, Whether Mr. Ma-
loney, postmaster, Kildysart, county
Clare, receives but 10 per annum for
postal work, and whether out of that
amount he is compelled to pay 5 yearly
to letter carrier; whether, as postmaster,
he attends from 7 o'clock a.m. till 7 p.m.
daily for net 5 per annum, or 8td. per
day, and without an hour's leave during
Mr. King


the year; whether Kildysart is a postal
centre of such importance as to warrant
an increase of Maloney's salary, and the
payment of the letter-carrier by the Post
Office authorities; whether Maloney's
remuneration as telegraphist at Kildy-
sart is but 6s. per week, while in many
cases apprentices for less responsible
work receive double that sum, and for
little more work telegraphists receive
from 20s. to 30s. per week; whether
1,000 words on a daily average are
transmitted from Kildysart; whether
his work in this department is made
more onerous by the use of a bad in-
strument; whether the Government will
consider this case with a view to re-
dress it; and, whether a similar state
of things does largely obtain in said
county?
THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr.
RAIKES) (Cambridge University) : I
think I ought to inform the hon. Mem-
ber that all sub-postmasters throughout
the United Kingdom are paid upon
one principle, which may be described,
shortly, as a system of payment by re-
sults. It is the practice to appoint as
sub-postmasters persons having private
business, and to give them a small re-
taining fee, and, in addition, commission
for various branches of work. The pay-
ment, therefore, adjusts itself to the
work; and if there is but little pay it
is evident there is but little work. The
principle appears to me a sound one. If
there is anything peculiar in the case of
Mr. Maloney, his proper course is to
make his application to me through the
prescribed channel, when the case would
be investigated. I may add that Mr.
Maloney is a grocer, and is not required
to givehis whole time to the Public Ser-
vice, and that the total amount paid to
him in 1885, under the principle men-
tioned, was about 28. An allowance
of 9 2s. 6d. is given to him for the pur-
pose of engaging a messenger, who is
occupied but a short time daily. I have
called upon him to explain why he only
gives 5 of the allowance to this mes-
senger. The telegraph instrument-an
"A. B. C."-is fully adequate for the
telegraph requirements of the office,
and the average number of words tele-
graphed daily is much below 1,000.
MR. JORDAN: Is the 9 2s. 6d. al-
'lowed for the messenger in addition to
10?
MR. RAIKES: Certainly.


{COMMONS }


(Ireland).






{SEPTEMBER 10, 1886} Education (Ireland). (


fund; and it must, therefore, be on a
FISHERIES (IRELAND) THE WEST strictly limited scale, at all events at
AND NORTH WEST COAST-LOANS first.
TO FISHERMEN.
MR. OLANCY (Dublin Co., N.) asked INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRE.,
the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu- LAND)-THE ASSISTANT COM-
tenant of Ireland, Whether the present MISSIONERS.
system of making loans to fishermen in Mn. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.) asked
that country has operated to exclude the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu-
from its benefits very many of those tenant of Ireland, Whether the com-
most in need of loans; whether a relaxa- bined salaries paid to the two Assistant
tion in the rules regulating the making Commissioners of Intermediate Educa-
of loans to fishermen was effected by an tion in Ireland amounted in 1884 to
Order of the Lords Justices in Council seven per cent of the entire expenditure
in January last, so as to enable loans of the Board, to nearly one-fourth of all
for boats and gear to be made on the the results fees to boys and girls in
security alone of the borrowers and the Ireland, to once and a-half as much as
boats; whether this new rule was made the results fees given to girls' schools in
without restriction to particular locali- all Ireland, to all the results fees given
ties; whether it has since been acted on in respect of boys and girls in Munster,
as referring only to the West and North to six times the amount of the results
West Coasts of Ireland; and, if so, fees given to all the schools in Con-
why, and by virtue of what authority; naught; whether the Assistant Com-
and, whether the Government will con- missioners who were appointed to act as
sider the propriety of enabling all fisher- secretaries and inspectors have even
men in Ireland to obtain loans on the acted in the latter capacity, and have
conditions said to be exacted now in the had their secretarial work mainly done
cases of those on the West and North by the chief and under clerks; and, if
West Coasts ? all this be the case, the Government will
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir take advantage of the present vacancy
MICHAEL HICKS-BEAOH) (Bristol, W.): in the office of Assistant Commissioner
I understand that in the case of small to effect a reduction'in the administra-
loans the difficulty suggested is not ex- tion expenses of the Board of Interme-
perienced. The relaxation of the rules diate Education, and thus increase the
sanctioned in January last permitting small fund available for prizes to pupils
large loans for boats, on the security of and fees to schools ?
the vessels, was recommended by the THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir
Inspector of Fisheries and agreed to by MICHAEL HIcKS-BEAcII) (Bristol, W.),
the Government in the hope of aiding in The hon. Gentleman will excuse me if I
the development of fisheries by the do not go into the calculations he has
supply of large boats, particularly on made. They may be correct, but if
the West and North-West Coasts, where they are correct I do not know that his
the fishermen most need assistance. The premisses would be established. I may
rule was not expressly limited to those state, however, that in the year he
parts of the Coast, though it was in- mentions (1884) the Commissioners had
tended mainly to apply to them. The at their disposal for payment as rewards
Lord Lieutenant's consent is required in and results fees 5,000 more than was
the case of every loan above 500. I.earned by students. With regard to
am in expectation of hearing further on the distribution of the business of the
this subject from the Inspectors of Department, I am informed that the se-
Fisheries; but I think I may say that I cretarial duties have been performed by
shall be prepared to advise his Excel- the Assistant Commissioners exclusively;
lency to entertain the applications in! but that no occasion has as yet arisen
deserving cases arising in other parts of for their employment as Inspectors. I
the country than those mentioned. It have already intimated that the question
is evident, however, that the experiment of the salary to be attached to the office
of dispensing with security other than of Assistant Commissioner will be con-
that of the vessels themselves may beo sidered before the existing vacancy is
attended with risk of loss to the loan filled.
B2


5 Intermediate







and Drainage (Ireland). 8


POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-BELFAST-
TELEGRAPH CLERKS.
MR. SEXTON (Belfast, W., and
Sligo, S.) asked the Chief Secretary to
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whe-
ther the Telegraph Clerks in Belfast
are obliged to work without pay on cer-
tain Sundays; whether they are paid
for overtime at the same rate only as
for ordinary duty; and, what is the
length of their annual holiday, and
whether any representations have been
made that it is not sufficient for the pre-
servation of health ?
THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr.
RAIKES) (Cambridge University) : In
reply to the hon. Member, I have to
state that the telegraphists at Belfast
are not obliged to work without pay on
any Sunday. The scale of wages was
fixed in 1881 to cover an average of two
hours' work on Sundays. All work in
excess of such average of two hours is
specially paid for as overtime. Payment
for overtime is at the same rate as for
ordinary duty for the first three hours
on a single occasion; but 25 per cent is
added for overtime in excess of that
period. The length of annual holiday
allowed to the telegraphists at Belfast
varies from a fortnight to three weeks,
according to their position and duties,
as at other Provincial offices. It is not
at all unusual for persons who wish for
a little longer holiday to make repre-
sentations of the character of those to
which the hon. Member alludes, and
such a one has been received from Bel-
fast. I am considering the subject, and
at the proper time shall announce the
decision.
MR. SEXTON: May I ask if the re-
gulations in force in Belfast are different
from those in other towns ?
MR. RAIKES: I understand they are
the same.
THE TRUCK ACTS-INFRINGEMENT IN
SCOTLAND.
MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton)
asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, Whether he has
obtained any further information as to
the infringement of the Truck Acts in
various parts of Scotland; and, whether
it is true that there are technical diffi-
culties in enforcing those Acts in Scot-
land; and, if yes, whether he will,
during the recess, consider the advisa-


ability of introducing a Bill, next Session,
enacting that all prosecutions under the
Truck Acts may be brought in the
Sheriffs' Court by the Procurators Fiscal,
whose expenses may be entered and re-
payable as in other prosecutions?
THE SECRETARY oF STATE (Mr.
MATTHEWS) (Birmingham, E.) : In
answer to the hon. Member, I regret to
say that I have no further information
on this subject as yet from Scotland. I
have consulted the Lord Advocate as to
the latter part of the Question, and he
tells me that he is not aware of any
technical difficulties in the way of en-
forcing the Truck Acts in Scotland, and
he does not advise any further legisla-
tion on the subject. I may add that I
am still prosecuting inquiries into the
matter.
MR. BRADLAUGH: I wish to ask
the Lord Advocate whether he is aware
that these difficulties were expressly
stated by the Truck Commissioners, and
have never been altered since ?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. H.
A. MACDONALD) (Edinburgh and St.
Andrew's Universities): I am aware
that certain difficulties were stated by
the Commissioners; but inquiries I have
made as to the present state of the
matter do not appear to indicate that
there is any substantial difficulty now.

INLAND NAVIGATION AND DRAINAGE
(IRELAND)-DRAINAGE OF
LOUGH ERNE.
MR. JORDAN (Clare, W.) asked the
Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, If he has yet obtained the
necessary information, or if the terms
of reference have yet been settled, or, if
not, when it is probable that they will
be, so as to enable him to state the in-
tention of the Government, as to re-
ferring the matter of the drainage of
Lough Erne with its tributaries, and
the Ulster and Ballinamore Canals, to
the proposed Commission on the de-
velopment of Irish resources, having
regard to the fact that the interests of a
large district of the north west of Ire-
land, including the counties of Cavan,
Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, and
Donegal, are affected thereby ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir
MICHAEL HICKs-BEAcH) (Bristol, W.):
This Question, as addressed to me, has
only appearedon the Paper to-day; and,
therefore, I have not been able to make


7 In~landE Navigationz


{COMMONS}







9 Commissioners of


myself acquainted with the precise posi-
tion of the question of the drainage of
Lough Erne. But I may say generally
that the duty of the proposed Commis-
sion will be to inquire what requires to
be done to complete the arterial drainage
of Ireland, and how that work should
be carried out. If the drainage of Lough
Erne and its tributaries is not completed,
or if arrangements for its completion
have not been already entered into, it
would fall within the scope of the Com-
mission.

INDIA-THE GOVERNOR OF MADRAS.
MR. JORDAN (Clare, W.) asked the
Under Secretary of State for India,
Whether the Governor of Madras visited
the Viceroy at the end of last year at the
public cost; whether he travelled by
special train, with a large following;
whether he could have travelled by ordi-
nary train at one-fifth of the sum the
Indian Press reports has been charged
in the public accounts; whether it was
absolutely necessary that the route
should have been round by Bombay,
Oodeypore, and Jeypore, and not by the
direct and inexpensive route by sea,
awaiting the Viceroy's then impending
return to Calcutta; and, whether there
is any truth in this newspaper report ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Sir JoHN GonST) (Chatham):
The Governor of Madras did visit the
Viceroy of India at Simla at the end of
1885. The Secretary of State has no
official information as to his route,
method of conveyance, or the persons
by whom he was accompanied, nor can
he say for what reason he visited the
Viceroy at Simla rather than Calcutta.
As to the cost of the journey, the Civil
Travelling Allowance Code, Section 35,
lays down that-
"The travelling expenses of the Governor of
Madras and Bombay and of their households
are paid out of the contract allowance for house-
hold charges;"
and the Secretaryof State hasnoreasonto
suppose that this rule was departed from.
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRE-
LAND)-BUNDORAN PIER, CO.
DONEGAL.
MR. BERNARD KELLY (Donegal,
S.) asked the Secretary to the Treasury,
If it be a fact that a pier has been lately
erected at Bundoran, county Donegal,
by the Board of Works, at a cost of


about 4,000; if it is so short that it
does not meet with the absolute neces-
sities of the place, and that a small
steamer which had been put on for the
conveyance of passengers and fish from
Killybegs to Bundoran, which is the
nearest railway station, had to be given
up in consequence of not being able to
come alongside and discharge either
passengers or fish; if the fisheries of
Donegal Bay have lately been largely
developed, and large quantities of fish
sent therefrom to the English markets,
but that the trade is overweighted by
the expense attendant on sending the
fish a very long distance by road before
it reaches a railway station, whilst a
near one exists at Bundoran, if only the
harbour were made convenient for land-
ing at; and, if the Commissioners of
Fisheries would approve of the exten-
sion of the pier and improvement of the
harbour, so as to effect the object so
much desired; and, if so, would he
authorize the Board of Works to make
the improvements so necessary, and thus
help the fishing industry of a poor dis-
trict of country ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.) said,
he would ask the hon. Member to post-
pone this Question till Tuesday. He
had made inquiry, and he understood a
letter had been forwarded to the Com-
missioners of Fisheries; but as yet no
reply had been received.
COMMISSIONERS OF IRISH LIGHTS-
DONEGAL HARBOUR.
MI. BERNARD KELLY(Donegal,S.)
askedthe Secretaryto theBoard of Trade,
If the entrance to Donegal is rendered
dangerous by the existence of what is
called the Blind Rock," in the channel
leading to that town, on which formerly a
beacon tower was erected, but knocked
down some years ago, and has never
been rebuilt; if, in its present state, the
navigation of this narrow channel up to
Donegal is rendered very difficult and
unsafe, and is a great drawback, not
only to the commercial interests of the
town, but also to the fishing industry of
the bay; and, if the lighthouse tower at
Fannad Point, Lough Swilly, is about
to be taken down by the Commissioners
of Irish Lights, and if he could induce
that Board to have it moved to and
erected on the "Blind Rock in Done-
gal Bay, so that the interests of that


ISFIITFMBER 10, 18861


Iris Ligts. 10







11 Vacciiatllon


town and the fishing industry, which
has lately been considerably developed,
might be assisted ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD
(Baron HENRY DE WORMS) (Liverpool,
East Toxteth): There is no doubt that
the entrance to Donegal Harbour is, as
stated by the hon. Member, rendered
dangerous to navigation by the existence
of the Blind Rock. The Rock at present
has no beacon; but it was formerly
marked by an iron pole erected and
maintained by those locally interested.
With regard to the last part of the hon.
Member's Question, the Board of Trade
are not in a position to make any defi-
nite statement respecting the old Fannad
Point Lighthouse; but I must point out
that the expense of marking dangers
which affect only the local trade of a
port should be provided for by the
locality. The Board of Trade, as cus-
todians of the Mercantile Marine Fund,
which is contributed by the general
passing trade (and towards which fish-
ing boats do not pay) are unable to
recommend the Irish Lights Commis-
sioners, who are the general lighting
authority for Ireland, to mark such
dangers at the expense of that Fund.

PORTUGAL-MADEIRA-MR. MAXWELL
WRIGHT, A BRITISH SUBJECT.
SIR WHITTAKER ELLIS (Surrey,
Kingston) asked the Under Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs, If he is aware
that Mr. Maxwell Wright, a British
subject, is now waiting his trial on a
question of offence against religion at
Santa Cruz; that he has applied unsuc-
cessfully to the Authorities at Lisbon to
allow the trial to take place at Funchal;
and, whether the Foreign Office will take
steps to insure him a fair hearing ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Sir JAMES FERGUSSON) (Man-
chester, N.E.): This question has been
before the Foreign Office for some time
past. Her Majesty's Consul in Madeira
is under instructions to watch carefully
the proceedings in the case, and to afford
Mr. Wright all the assistance he pro-
perly can. Her Majesty's Minister at
Lisbon has, moreover, been instructed
to request the friendly intervention of
the Portuguese Government in order to
procure a change of venue to Funchal,
if the case should be one for trial by
jury; and the matter will not be lost
sight of.
Mfr. Bernard Kelly


THE NEW FOREST- SALES OF
LAND.
SIR WHITTAKER ELLIS (Surrey,
Kingston) asked the Secretary to the
Treasury, Whether it is the intention of
the Commissioners of Her Majesty's
'Woods and Forests to sell or otherwise
dispose of the parcels of lands acquired
by the Woods and Forests in the New
Forest at Lyndhurst in Hampshire ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.): It
is a little difficult to understand the pre-
cise object of this Question. If it means
whether any decision has been taken to
dispose of particular lands in the New
Forest I answer that no such decision
has been come to. But, as the hon.
Member will know, the Commissioners
of Woods are constantly leasing or
otherwise dealing with the lands under
their care.

VACCINATION CERTIFICATES-PUBLIC
S VACCINATORS (IRELAND).
Dn. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid) asked
the President of the Local Government
Board, Whether it is a fact that certifi-
cates of proficiency in vaccination can
only be issued in Great Britain, by pub-
lic vaccinators appointed by the Local
Government Board ; what is the number
and distribution of these public vaccina-
tors; and, whether any are appointed
in and for Ireland ?
TIE PRESIDENT (Mr. RITCHIE)
(Tower Hamlets, St. George's) : The
certificates of proficiency in vaccination
required as part of the qualifications for
the appointment of public vaccinator in
England can only be obtained at certain
educational vaccination stations, which
are subject to the inspection of the Local
Government Board. Twenty public
vaccinators in Great Britain have been
authorized to grant such certificates;
the stations being at London, Birming-
ham, Bristol, Exeter, Leeds, Liverpool,
Manchester, Newcastle, Sheffield, Edin-
burgh, and Glasgow. The Board have
in the present year been applied to to au-
thorize the grant of such certificates at
Dublin, and have expressed their will-
ingness to do so upon certain arrange-
ments being made in order to assimilate
the practice with regard to the issue of
certificates throughout the United King-
dom. Steps are now being taken for
this purpose.


1COMMIONS1


Certificates.







(Ireland) Acts. 14


PRISONS (IRELAND)-CASE OF DANIEL
ALLEN.
DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)
asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, Whether it is a
fact that Daniel Allen, of Ballinaboy,
Ballinhassig, who was imprisoned as a
suspect in the year 1882, got his right
collar bone broken on the 23rd April
1882, in consequence of a door opening
between the new and old yards being
blown in upon him when passing;
whether the accident was occasioned
by neglect on the part of the officials;
whether the door fastenings were suffi-
cient on or before the date of the acci-
dent in question; whether another pri-
soner, Denis Lane, of Killumney, did,
on a prior date, receive, in a similar
manner, a violent blow from the same
door; whether he called the official's at-
tention then and there to the want of a
stay upon the door; whether a stay was
attached to the back of the door about
a week subsequent to Allen's accident;
whether Daniel Allen received proper
medical attention while suffering from
the fracture; whether he was discharged
from prison with the fractured bone
entirely ununited, and with a useless
right arm; whether it is a fact that he
is still unable to use his right arm and
work as he was accustomed to do for his
own and his family's (six in number)
support; and, whether the Home Se-
cretary will have the circumstances of
the case inquired into, and will recom-
mend his case to the benevolent atten-
tion of Her Majesty's Government ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY Fon
IRELAND (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEAciH)
(Bristol, W.) (who replied) said, he had
examined the Medical and Official Re-
ports made at the time. The occurrence
seemed to have been a pure accident.
On the part of the officials, nothing was
known of the circumstances alluded to in
the Question. After the accident Lane
received proper relief, and was dis-
charged shortly afterwards. Possibly
the bone was not completely united at
the time. He did not see how he could
recommend the case to the benevolent
attention of Her Majesty's Govern-
ment.
DR. TANNER asked, whether, con-
sidering the sufferings of this poor man,
and the fact that he was unable to earn
his livelihood, the right hon. Gentle-


man would not recommend the Govern-
ment to take his case into consideration ?
[No reply.]

POST OFFICE-RATES OF POSTAGE
BETWEEN ENGLAND AND THE
COLONIES.
Mn. HENNIKER HEATON (Can-
terbury) asked the Postmaster General,
Whether he intends to take any steps
with reference to the anomalies and the
high charges for postage between Eng-
land and the various Colonies of the
British Empire ?
THE POSTMASTER GENERAL
(Mr. RAIKEs) (Cambridge University):
The completion of the Postal Union by
the adhesion of the few British Colo-
nies still outside it offers the most
practical means of removing anomalies
and reducing charges. Such a step
depends more upon the Colonial com-
munities than the Imperial Post Office;
but the hon. Member may rest assured
that all possible encouragement and
assistance will be given towards the
entry of the remaining Colonies into the
Union, and the consequent assimilation
of rates of postage. I can assure my
hon. Friend that I take a great in-
terest in this question, and that I am
in continual communication with the
Secretary of State for the Colonies, with
the view of fully ascertaining the opinion
of the Colonies on this subject.
Mn. HENNIKER HEATON asked,
whether the right hon.Gentleman would
agree to grant an inquiry as to the
feasibility of cheapening postage with
our Colonies; also, whether he would
give an assurance thatno contract would
be entered into which would preclude
the introduction of an Imperial penny
postage? The reason he asked this was
that he was informed a new contract
was about to be signed.
MI. RAIKES said, he should require
notice of that Question.

LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACTS-
NEWCASTLE GUARDIANS-SCHEME
AT ABBEYFEALE.
Mn. WILLIAM ABRAHAM (Lime-
rick, W.) asked the Chief Secretary to
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether
his attention has been called to the con-
dition of the labourers in the district
of Abbeyfeale, union of Newcastle;
whether the sanitary authority of the


13 -Lab~ourers


(B&PTEMBER 10, 18861







HTarbours (Ireland). 16


said union prepared a scheme for two
hundred labourers' cottages, and for-
warded a petition to the Local Govern-
ment Board to inquire into the scheme
on the 15th of April last; whether an
inquiry was held in June, and a letter
forwarded from the Local Government
Board in July, stating that instructions
for the preparation of a Provisional
Order had been issued; if he will state
the reason why this Order is delayed;
and, whether he will urge the respon-
sible officials to proceed with the neces-
sary steps to complete the scheme with
some degree of expedition ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir
MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH) (Bristol, W.):
It is true that a scheme for the erection
of a large number of labourers' cot-
tages was submitted by the Newcastle
Guardians in April last, and that some
delay has occurred in carrying it out;
but this is attributable partly to the
extent of the scheme, but mainly to the
omission of necessary documents and
other irregularities on the part of the
Guardians. However, a draft order will
be sent to the Guardians by the Local
Government Board before their next
meeting.
ADMIRALTY-MR. C. J. COX, PRINCIPAL
CLERK.
SIn RICHARD TEMPLE (Worcester,
Evesham) asked the First Lord of the
Admiralty, Whether Mr. C. J. Cox,
Principal Clerk in the Admiralty, has
been retired; from what date; and, on
what terms as regards pension ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMI-
RALTY (Mr. FoRwooD) (Lancashire,
Ormskirk) : In reply to the hon. Member
for Worcester I have to say that it has
been arranged for Mr. Cox to retire, and
that negotiations are pending with the
Treasury to determine the terms of pen-
sion, pending the settlement of which
the date of retirement has not been
fixed; but I will urge the matter forward
to a conclusion.

ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY--EX-
CONSTABLE EDWARD M'ENTER.
SIR THOMAS ESMONDE(DublinCo.,
S.) asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, If Ex-Constable
Edward M'Enter, of Newry, will be
allowed his full retiring pension of 41
a-year, in consideration of the fact that
during his twenty years' service in the
Mr. William Abraham (Limerick, IW.)


Royal Irish Constabulary he was only
fined five times, and paid the full penalty
each time ?
THE CHIEF' SECRETARY (Sir
MICHAEL HIOKS-BEACH) (Bristol, W.),
in reply, said, the constable named
retired six and a-half years ago. The
man's pension was fixedbelow the maxi-
mum on account of previous miscon-
duct. He had been punished six times
for various offences. The last occasion
occurred only a few months before his
retirement, and on that occasion he was
not only punished, but warned of his dis-
missal. He (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach)
thought that, on the whole, he had been
leniently dealt with.

FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRE-
LAND)-PIER AT ENNISCRORIE, CO.
SLIGO.
MR. SEXTON (Belfast, W., and
Sligo, S.) asked the Secretary to the
Treasury, What was the date appointed
by contract for the completion of the
pier at Enniscrorie, county Sligo; whe-
ther complaints have been made by the
fishermen of the district as to loss and
suffering caused to them by the delay;
and, what steps will be taken to secure
the prompt completion of the work ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. JACKsoN) (Leeds, N.), in
reply, said, the contract for the comple-
tion of this pier was dated October last.
He was not aware that any former com-
plaints had been made up to date. He
was informed that the delay had been
caused by the bad weather. The con-
tract would be completed as quickly as
possible. He had caused a letter to be
written calling special attention to the
matter.
MR. SEXTON: Does the hen. Gentle-
man mean the House to understand that
there has been bad weather all the time
since last October; and will the Govern-
ment take steps to exact from the con-
tractor the penalties for default in this
matter ?'
MR. JACKSON said, the question of
exacting of penalties was a question
which would have to be considered if it
was thought necessary to do so. He
supposed these penalties would be ex-
acted if the default was due to causes
over which the contractor had complete
control; but he had been told that the
delay had been due to the prevalence of
difficulties over which he had not con-


15 Fishery Piems and


ICOMMONSI







17 Africa (South)-Annexation { SEPTEMBER 10, 1886} of Native Territory. 18


trol. He would make further inquiry
into the matter.
Mn. P. M'DONALD (Sligo, N.):
May I ask the hon. Gentleman if he can
say when the work is likely to be com-
pleted ?
MR. JACKSON: I have no informa-
tion as to that. It does not appear in
the Question.

LAW AND POLICE (IRELAND)-ACTION
OF THE POLICE AT BALLYRUSH,
CO. SLIGO.
MR. SEXTON (Belfast, W., and
Sligo, S.) asked the Chief Secretary to
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whe-
ther, at twelve o'clock on the night of
the 29th of June last, District Inspector
Smith, of Riverstown, county Sligo, ac-
companied by Acting Sergeant Glennon
and a constable, demanded admission to
the house of Mr. Willis, Ballyrush, and,
having entered the house, proceeded to
search it; whether District Inspector
Smith unlocked, by means of a key
which he had brought with him, a box,
the property of the Ballyrush Branch of
the Irish National League, and examined
the papers contained in it; and, what
were the reasons and authority for this
proceeding ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir
MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH) (Bristol, W.),
in reply, said, he was afraid he could not
answer the Question, as he had not had
time to receive the necessary information.
MR. SEXTON said, he would repeat
the Question on Monday.

TRADE AND COMMERCE FOREIGN
LABOUR IN THE TOWER HAMLETS
-THE CENSUS.
CAPTAIN COLOMB (Tower Hamlets,
Bow, &c.) asked the Secretary to the
Board of Trade, Whether his attention
has been drawn to an alleged accumula-
tion of Foreign labour in the Tower
Hamlets; whether it is in contempla-
tion to include in statistics relating to
labour any information as to the nature
and extent of Foreign competition in
the labour market of the United King-
dom; and, whether any record is kept
of the immigration of Foreigners from
European Countries into the United
Kingdom ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD
(Baron HENRY DE WonMs) (Liverpool,


East Toxteth): The Board of Trade
have observed the statements in the
public Press as to an alleged accumula-
tion of foreign labour in the Tower
Hamlets. It will be the duty of the
officers engaged in the collection of
labour statistics, when the Department
is fully organized, to give their attention
to such matters, and publish statistics
and other information regarding them.
It is intended that the Labour Corre-
spondent,who willenter on his duties next
month, should give special attention to
subjects of this class. There is no record
of the immigration of foreigners into
the United Kingdom; but substantially
the information desired is given in the
Census, which contains a record of the
foreign population resident in the
United Kingdom.
AFRICA (SOUTH)-ANNEXATION OF
NATIVE TERRITORY THE PONDOS
AND XESIBES.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.) asked the Secretary of State
for the Colonies, Whether Her Majesty's
Government have made -a fresh annexa-
tion of native territory in South Africa
to the Cape Colony, and on what ground;
and, whether it is the policy of Her Ma-
jesty's Government to make over to the
Cape Government (without representa-
tion) Pondos and Xesibes near the coast,
while tracts in the interior not accessible
from the sea are held by the British Go-
vernment ?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
E. STANHOPE) (Lincolnshire, Horncastle):
Yes, Sir; it is true that the Xesibe
country has been annexed. During
this year the relations between the
Xesibes and the Pondos being very
strained, it was represented to Lord
Granville by the Cape Ministry, the
Cape Parliament, the Acting Governor,
and by Sir Hercules Robinson that the
formal annexation of the country to the
Cape Colony was expedient, and would
promote the chances of a peaceful
settlement of existing difficulties. Lord
Granville adopted that advice, and re-
commended Her Majesty to effect an
annexation which was highly acceptable
to the Xesibes. To the second Question
my answer is that the subject of re-
presentation in the Transkei districts
has been recently under consideration;
but no action has yet been taken.







Justice. 20


EGYPT-INTERNAL ADMINISTRATION
-THE PAPERS.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.) asked the Under Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs,Whether he is
yet prepared to lay upon the Table any
Papers throwing light on the internal
administration of Egypt in 1885 and
1886, and especially showing whether
any real bondfide attempt is being made
to put in practice the autonomous in-
stitutions recommended by Lord Dufferin
and decreed by the Khedive ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Sir JAMES FEROUSSON) (Man-
chester, N.E.) : Papers are on the point
of being distributed showing the pro-
gress in the internal administration of
Egypt up to a recent date.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: Will
the hon. Gentleman say when imme-
diately means?
SIR JAMES FERGUSSON: I made
inquiry to-day, and I am told that
Papers may be expected in the course
of next week.
MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.) asked,
whether the Papers would include any
information as to the administration of
the Daira Loan ?
SIR JAMES FERGUSSON said, he
could not say at that moment that that
would be included; but he would in-
form the hon. Member on Monday.

WALES-THE AGITATION AGAINST
TITHE.
MR. J. G. HUBBARD (London)
asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, Whether it has come
to his notice that the agitation against
tithe in Wales, instigated by the Libe-
ration Society, is conducted by bodies of
men bound in writing to resist the pay-
ment of the tithe, which is a legal
liability under their several tenures;
and, whether combinations organized to
resist the discharge of legal obligations
and obstruct the recovery of just claims
are conspiracies, subjecting those en-
gaged in them to the penalties statutably
provided for such offences ?
MR. BORLASE (Cornwall, St. Aus-
tell) : Arising out of this Question, I
beg to ask the right hon. and learned
Gentleman a supplemental one, of which,
on seeing this Notice.on the Paper, I
have given him private Notice,Whether,
taking into consideration the wide diver-


sity of opinion as to the origin and
nature of tithe, the liability which, under
certain conditions, exists or may not
exist to the payment of it, the continuous
depression in agriculture, and the strong
feeling which is rife in regard to this
species of burden, Her Majesty's Go-
vernment will take into consideration the
advisability of appointing a Royal Com-
mission to inquire into the whole
subject ?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
MATTHEWS) (Birmingham, E.): I have
no knowledge of the facts referred to
in my right hon. Friend's Question-
namely, that in Wales men are bound
in writing to resist the payment of tithes.
The latter part of the Question is a
question of law, on which the Law Offi-
cers of the Crown, and not myself, could
properly give an opinion; but I appre-
hend that where organized efforts are
actually made to resist or obstruct the
process of law, that would amount to a
conspiracy punishable at Common Law.
In reply to the hon. Member for the
Mid Division of Cornwall (Mr. Borlase)
I have to say that, in the opinion of Her
Majesty's Government, sufficient reasons
do not exist for the appointment of a
Royal Commission to inquire into the
question of tithe.
INDIA-THE AFGHAN FRONTIER-
THE RAILWAY TO QUETTA.
SIR HENRY TYLER (Great Yar-
mouth) asked the Under Secretary of
State for India,Whether the Railway to
Quetta is now open for traffic; and,
what is the condition of the Railway in
the direction of Candahar ?
TIHE UNDER SECRETARY OF
STATE (Sir JOHN GORST) (Chatham):
The Railway through the Bolan Pass
reached Quetta on the 26th of July last.
That by the Harnai route is still under
construction. Preliminary surveys have
been made beyond Quetta in the direc-
tion of Candahar.

LAW AND JUSTICE CODIFICATION
OF THE CRIMINAL LAW.
MR. HOWELL (Bethnal Green, N.E.)
asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer,
If the Government will, during the re-
cess, consider the advisability of intro-
ducing a Bill to consolidate and codify
the Criminal Law ?
THE CHANCELLOR or THE EXCHE-
QUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL)


19: Law and


{COMMONS)







1 larbours (Ireland). 22


(Paddington, S.): The subject is un-
doubtedly one of first class importance,
and I earnestly hope it may be in the
power of the Government to deal with
it before any great lapse of time.

LAW AND JUSTICE-THE REVISED
STATUTES-ISSUE OF A NEW AND
CHEAP EDITION.
Mn. HOWELL (Bethnal Green, N.E.)
asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer,
If the Government will, during the re-
cess, consider the advisability, of issuing
in a cheap octavo form a new edition of
the Revised Statutes, with index and
tables up to date, with the view of bring-
ing the Statute Law of England within
the means and reach of a larger class
of readers ?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-
QUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL)
(Paddington, S.), in reply, said, the
Government would consider the advisa-
bility of carrying out the proposal re-
ferred to, provided always that the new
edition could be issued without loss to
the Treasury.

THE FRANCHISE ACTS, 1885-EXTRA
REMUNERATION TO POOR LAW
OFFICIALS.
Mn. O'HANLON (Cavan, E.) asked
the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, WVhether the Govern-
ment intend to pass a similar grant to
that given by the late Government for
the purpose of remunerating Clerks of
Unions and Poor Rate Collectors for
their services in completing the Parlia-
mentary List of Voters in Ireland ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir
MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH) (Bristol, W.),
in reply, said, he could only repeat the
answer which he had previously given.

ARMY-CHARGES AGAINST THE ORD-
NANCE DEPARTMENT.
SIR HENRY TYLER (Great Yar-
mouth) asked the Secretary of State for
War, Whether his attention has been
called to a further letter from Colonel
Hope, published in The Times newspaper,
and to a communication circulated to
Membersby CaptainArmit; and, whether
he now considers that, for the protection
of the branches of the War Department
alleged to be implicated in the matters
referred to in these communications, as


well as in the interest of the public ser-
vice, and for the satisfaction of the
Country generally, it is expedient to
appoint a Royal Commission with full
power to take evidence, to award pro-
tection to witnesses, and to report on all
such matters so referred to as may be
laid before them?
THE SECRETARY oF STATE (Mr.
W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster):
I have already explained to the House
that I have invited from Colonel Hope
and from any other person a statement
of facts, and have undertaken myself to
consider, and also to take the opinion of
the Law Officers, whether such state-
ment would justify proceedings before
any Court. Every document I have
received has been submitted to the Law
Officers; and they advise that none of
the documents contain any allegations
which would justify me in taking any
legal proceedings, civil or criminal, or
would, in their opinion, warrant the ap-
pointment of a Royal Commission with
the powers suggested in the Question.
SIR HENRY TYLER said, that, in
consequence of the answer of the right
hon. Gentleman, he would move at an
early date-
That it is expedient to appoint a Royal
Commission with full powers to examine wit-
nesses and report on all matters that may be
referred to them in connection with the charges
so constantly 'and persistently brought against
certain branches of the War Department."

EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY ACT-AMEND-
MENT OF ACT.
Mn. F. S. POWELL (Wigan) asked
the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment, Whether the Government in-
tend to introduce a Bill early next Ses-
sion to amend the Employers' Liability
Act?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
MATTHEWS): Yes, Sir; I hope the Go-
vernment will be able in the course of
next Session to introduce a Bill amend-
ing the Employers' Liability Act.

FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS
(IRELAND)-- CAPPAGH PIER, KILRUSH.
MR. JORDAN (Clare, W.) asked the
Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, If the Kilrush Town Com-
missioners are now an urban sanitary
authority; if, as such, they should have
charge of the Cappagh Pier, Kilrush;


21 Fishery Piers and


JSErTrmDrn 10, 18861







23 Prisons Act-Si!e of


if the Board of Trade has been commu-
nicated with repeatedly on the matter;
if, up to the present, no satisfactory reply
or information has been received; and,
if the Department will be instructed at
once to perfect the arrangements by
which the pier will be handed over to
the Kilrush Commissioners ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir
MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH) (Bristol, W.),
in reply, said, he must ask the hon.
Member to postpone the Question, as he
had not been able to obtain the neces-
sary information.
Ms. JORDAN said, he would post-
pone it till Monday.

ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE-THE BAR
LIBRARY-ELECTRIC LIGHTING.
MR. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green,
S.W.) asked the First Commissioner of
Works, What is the cause of the delay
in carrying out the long promised exten-
sion of the electric light to the Bar
Library at the Law Cdurts; and, whe-
ther he will undertake to complete the
arrangements before the close of the
Long Vacation ?
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER (Mr.
PLVNKET) (Dublin University) : It was
impossible to begin the work of extending
the electric lighting to the Bar Library
at the Royal Courts of Justice while the
Courts were sitting. The necessary ar-
rangements are now being made, and
will, I am assured, be completed before
the close of the Long Vacation.

POST OFFICE-MEDICAL STAFF,
GENERAL POST OFFICE-DR. FIELD.
MR. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green,
S.W.) asked the Postmaster General,
In what capacity and by what authority
a Dr. Field, whose name does not ap-
pear among the Medical Staff, was em-
ployed at the General Post Office in July
last in the examination of officers who
had previously forwarded from their
own medical men certificates of unfitness
for duty; how long Dr. Field was em-
ployed; how much he was paid; and,
who paid him ?
THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr.
RAIKES) (Cambridge University): Dr.
Field was employed for five weeks under
the authority of my Predecessor, and
paid at the rate of 3 3s. a-week, out of
the sum of 100 provided for the pur-
pose of paying substitutes in the absence
Ar. Jordan


of the medical officer on annual leave.
The amount will be seen at page 76 of
the Estimates. His duty was to per-
form all the duties attaching to the officer
whose duty he was taking.

SUPPLY-POST OFFICE ESTIMATES-
CLERKS IN THE SAVINGS BANK
DEPARTMENT.
Mn. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green,
S.W.) asked the Postmaster General,
If he will be good enough to explain
the following discrepancy: in the Post
Office Estimates 200 clerks of the Third
Class in the Savings Bank Department
are charged for, whereas it appears from
the Post Office Directory that there are
only 107 clerks of that class ?
THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr.
RAIKES) (Cambridge University): The
explanation is that Clause 4 of the Order
in Council of 1876 lays down that no
vacancies in the third class of the branch
referred to should be filled up except
by the appointment of Lower Division
Clerks; and a note appears in the Post
Office Establishment Book to the effect
that clerks borne on the Lower Division
Class in excess of the authorized num-
ber count against vacancies in the third
class. I shall be very glad to avail my-
self of the suggestion of the hon. Mem-
ber to adjust the numbers of the respec-
tive classes, and will confer with the
Treasury on the subject before the next
Estimates are prepared.

PRISONS ACT-SITE OF CLERKEN-
WELL PRISONS.
CAPTAIN PENTON (Finsbury, Cen-
tral) asked the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, Whether Her
Majesty's Government will place at the
disposal of the Clerkenwell Vestry the
site of the Clerkenwell Prisons for
building purposes, at a reasonable rate,
as at present the ground is unremunera-
tive, and adds to the burdens of the rate-
payers?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
MATTHEWS) (Birmingham, E.) : The
Government are prepared to sell to the
Clerkenwell Vestry the site of the
Clerkenwell Prisons for building pur-
poses at the fair value of the site. The
Government are, in effect, trustees of
the site for the Justices of the County,
and would not be justified in selling the
site below its value.


{CM03.0ONS}


ClerkenzwelZ Primnls. 24







Justice (Ireland). 26


ARMY-CHARGES AGAINST THE
ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT.
MR. E. ROBERTSON (Dundee)
asked the Secretary of State for War,
Whether (if he adheres to his deter-
mination not to propose a Commission
of Inquiry into the conduct of the Ord-
nance Department on the evidence now
before him) he will take the opinion
of the Law Officers as to whether any
of the published charges against the
Department and its officers are libels,
and punishable as such; and, whether,
if the Law Officers answer this ques-
tion in the affirmative, he will con-
sider the propriety of instituting a pro-
secution ?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster) :
Having regard to the circumstances
under which the documents have been
communicated to me, I consider that it
would not be proper for me to express
any opinion whether the allegations are
or are not libellous; or to instigate any
prosecution in respect of them. I am
informed that one action for libel is
already pending; and should any libel-
lous matter be published any persons
concerned can pursue the ordinary re-
medies.
MR. E. ROBERTSON: My Question
refers, not to the documents which have
been confidentially communicated to the
right hon. Gentleman, but to the pub-
lished charges which have appeared in
many newspapers affecting the Ordnance
Department.
Ms. W. H. SMITH: I am advised
that they do not constitute matter on
which it would be possible for me to
take any proceedings.
Mn. E. ROBERTSON: Has the right
hen. Gentleman been advised that the
public charges against the officers of the
Ordnance Department, and not naming
individuals, cannot be the subject of a
criminal action ?
MR. W. H. SMITH: I have given
my answer to the hon. Gentleman's
Question, and I must leave him to in-
terpret it as he thinks fit.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-PENSIONS
TO TEACHERS.
Mn. CONWAY (Leitrim, N.) asked
the Vice President of the Committee of


Council, Whether it is the practice, in
awarding pensions to teachers, under
Article 134 of the Education Code, to
exclude applicants who, having fulfilled
all the conditions approved by Parlia-
ment, have been in receipt of incomes
of 120 a-year, or of 110, with a resi-
dence; and, if so, upon what authority,
and by whose direction, such exclu-
sion of qualified claimants have been
made?
THE VICE PRESIpENT (Sir HENRY
HOLLAND) (Hampstead): No, Sir; such
is not the practice.
ME. CONWAY asked the Vice Pre-
sident of the Committee of Council,
Whether he will extend the benefit of
Article 134 of the Code (Pensions) to
those teachers who entered as pupil
teachers while the old Pension Minutes
were in force namely, before 6th
August 1862 ?
SIR HENRY HOLLAND: I have no
power to extend the operation of Ar-
ticle 134 without a new Minute under
the sanction of the Treasury. The ques-
tion has been frequently raised and de-
cided in the negative, and I see no rea-
son to make any change.

IRISH LAND COMMISSION-RETURNS.
MR. PARNELL (Cork) asked the
Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, Whether he will lay upon
the Table of the House, prior to the
Debate on the Tenants' Relief (Ireland)
Bill, Returns up to the most recent date
attainable (in continuation of Command
Paper 4803) ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir
MICHAEL HICKs-BEAcH) (Bristol, W.):
There has been some delay, the reason
for which I do not know, in the circula-
tion of the Return for May and June;
but it is ready, and will be circulated
very shortly. I have received a tele-
gram from the Land Commissioners to
the effect that the Return for July will
be ready for presentation on Tuesday
next.

LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-THE
BARBAVILLA PRISONERS.
MR. TUITE (Westmeath, N.) asked
the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, Whether his atten-
tion has been directed to the following
statement made by Constable Fitzgerald
with reference to the witnesses in the


25 Law and


SEPTEMBER 10, 18861







Committee of Supply. 28,


case of the Barbavilla prisoners since
the trials:-
On a morning immediately after young
M'Keon was brought from Clonmel to witness's
depot, business brought me at an early hour
from another part of the city towards the depot.
I came up to old M'Keon and Head Constable
Lynch, who were standing about ten or fifteen
yards from the depot. We spoke to each other,
and the conversation turned on the Barbavilla
case. Lynch said Pat (meaning M'Keon, then
present) was trying to help him with it. He
then said he had M'Keon's son there, but could
get nothing out of him. Old M'Keon then
said, When I have a talk with him it will be
all right,' or, Let me have a talk with him and
it will be all right.' IaskedLynchif he meant
to do so, when he clearly gave me to understand
that he did. In fact, old M'Keon said he had
come up from Castlepollard expressly for the
purpose with him (Lynch). In a very few
minutes after this I saw both father and son
together in a room in the upper part of the
building.
"MAt'ICE FITZGERALD, Sergeant."
Whether, at the trials, Judge Lawson
made use of the following observa-
tion :-
To insinuate,' said he, 'that the I'Keons
had interviews while in the hands of the police,
is to insinuate that the very sources of justice
are polluted, and he scouted the insinuation as
an impossibility;' "
whether Constable Fitzgerald is at pre-
sent in the Constabulary force, and bears
a most exemplary character; and, whe-
ther, having regard to the above facts,
he will cause a sworn inquiry into the
means by which the convictions were
obtained ?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR
IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES) (Dublin Uni-
versity) (who replied) said, he had been
asked by the right hon. Gentleman the
Chief Secretary forIreland to answer this
Question, as it was on a subject with
which he had been already acquainted.
He had to say that, although he had
most carefully read all the Papers con-
nected with this matter last year, yet,
considering the nature of the subject,
he would not like to answer the Question
without having had an opportunity of
refreshing his memory by going over
the Papers again. If the hon. Member
put down the Question for Tuesday, most
likely he would be able to answer it then.
MR. TUITE said, the Votes for the
salaries of the right hon. Gentleman
and the Lord Lieutenant would then be
disposed of, and he might not have
an opportunity of impugning their ac-
tion.
Mr. Tuite


AGRICULTURAL LABOURERS (SCOT-
LAND)-APPOINTMENT OF A
COMMISSION.
DR. CLARK (Caithness) asked the
Secretary for Scotland, If in view of the
probability of future legislation regard-
ing the tenure of land and the condition
of agriculture, he will appoint a Com-
mittee or Commission to inquire into the
condition of the farm servants or agri-
cultural labourers of Scotland, as to
their system of service, hours of labour,
the extent to which the bothy system
is still carried on, and the moral and
physical results of that system ?
THE SECRETARY FoR SCOTLAND
(Mr. A. J. BALFOUR) (Manchester, E.):
So far as I am aware, there is no imme-
diate prospect of any legislation of the
character indicated by the Question of
the hon. Member; and, looking to the
very able and exhaustive Reports of the
last Royal Commission on agricultural
employment, I see no reason to institute
any further inquiries, which could not,
in my opinion, be confined to Scotland.
The fourth Report of the Commission,
published in 1870, deals exclusively
with Scotland, and refers especially to
the bothy system.

PUBLIC BUSINESS-COMMITTEE OF
SUPPLY-INCORRECT ENTRY IN
VOTES.
MR. SEXTON (Belfast,W., and Sligo,
S.): I wish to put a Question to you,
Sir, before you leave the Chair. Last
night, in Committee of Supply, my hon.
Friend the Member for Mid Cork (Dr.
Tanner) moved to report Progress, but
afterwards asked leave to withdraw the
Motion. The Motion, thereupon, was
withdrawn; but in the Votes printed to-
day I find that it is stated that the
Motion was negatived.
MR. SPEAKER: I have no cogniz-
ance of what takes place in Committee
of Supply. I am only cognizant of
those matters which take place when
I am in the Chair.
Mn. SEXTON: All I wish to ask
you, Sir, is whether, if my representa-
tion of the vote is correct, it will not be
proper to correct the entry in the Votes ?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member
had better make a representation to the
Chairman of Committees. I have no
doubt that if any mistake has been com-
mitted, it will at once be rectified.


271 Public B3usiness--


{COMMONS}






Service Estimates. 30


ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-o-
SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
SUPPLY-considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
CLAss II.-SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF
CIVIL DEPARTMENTS.
[Mr. COURTNEY in the Chair.]
MR. SEXTON (Belfast,W., and Sligo,
S.): I beg to move, Mr. Courtney, that
the entry in the Votes in reference to
the Motion of my hon. Friend the Mem-
bor for Mid Cork (Mr. Parnell) last
night to report Progress be amended
by stating that the Motion was with-
drawn and not negatived.
THE CHAIRMAN: My recollection
does not coincide with that of the hon.
Member. The hon. Member for Mid
Cork moved to report Progress; I put
the Question from the Chair, and it was
negatived.
(1.) 3,707, to' complete the sum for
Friendly Societies Registry.
(2.) 10,111, to complete the sum for
Land Commissioners for England.
Mn. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.): The
Report of the Land Commissioners
shows that the Commissioners have very
little work to do. Last year they ap-
pear only to have had four applications
before them-two for the regulation
and two for the inclosure of commons.
I do not find that the amount of work
performed is in any respect adequate to
the sum of money voted for this Com-
mission. Indeed, the duties of the
Commissioners are preposterously small,
and yet there is a Parliamentary Vote
amounting this year to 24,509 for the
Commission. I venture to say that
there is not a single Land Commission
Court in Ireland which does not do 10
times the amount of work in a month
that this Commission transacts in the
course of 12 months. I should like to
have some explanation of this extra-
ordinary sum. Upon the face of the
Vote there is comparatively no work
whatever done by these three Commis-
sioners for the amount of salary they
receive. Unless I obtain a satisfactory
explanation from the Government, I
shall certainly move to reduce the Vote
by the amount of the salaries of the
Commissioners.


THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE FOR THE HOME DEPART-
MENT (Mr. STUART-WORTLEY) (Shef-
field, Hallam): I will answer the
remarks of the hon. Gentleman as far
as I have been able to gather from
them the point of his complaint. I
understand him to say that the business
of the Land Commission does not re-
ceive that amount of attention from
the Land Commissioners which it de-
mands.
Ms. CLANCY: No; that is not my
complaint. What I submit is that a
very small number of applications come
before them, and for that work they are
paid the enormous sum of 24,000
a-year. The hon. Gentleman does not
appear to have read the Report of the
Commission.
Mn. STUART-WORTLEY: I can
assure the hon. Gentleman that appli-
cations for inclosures are not the only
matters which the Land Commissioners
have to deal with. There are many
other things they have to attend to, and
during the year they do a great deal of
work. Their functions are exercised
under the Acts which create the Com-
mission to which they are attached. In
addition, there are duties thrown upon
them under the Acts which relate to the
improvements of landed estates.
MR. CLANCY: I have only drawn
attention to the facts which are stated in
the Report of the Commission; and I re-
peat that there seems to be a very small
amount of work done in comparison
with the amount of money voted for the
Commission. On the face of this Report
it is not difficult to understand why Sir
James Caird can apply himself once a
week to writing letters to The Times on
matters that he does not seem to under-
stand very much about. It is true that
a sum of 18,000 has been paid into
the Exchequer out of the fees received
by the Commission; but a clerk paid at
the rate of 100 a-year would have
been quite sufficient to receive those
fees, and one Commissioner with 5,000
a-year would be quite adequate to dis-
charge the rest of the duties of the
Office. I beg to move that the Vote be
reduced by the sum of 15,181.
THE CHAIRMAN: I must point
out to the hon. Member that the total
amount of the Vote is only 10,000.
Mn. SEXTON (Belfast, W., and Sligo,
S.): The hon. Member can move the


29 SVZY ii


ISEPTEJ6BER 10, 18861







Service Bshimate8. 32


rejection of the remaining portion of
the Vote.
MR. CLANCY: I find, under the
head of the expenses of this Commis-
sion, that the items amount to 15,181;
but, of course, a portion of that sum
has already been voted on account. I
beg to move the rejection of the
Vote.
THECHANCELLOR oF THE EXCHE-
QUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL)
(Paddington, S.): The hon. Gentleman
will excuse me if I say his remarks
were couched in so extremely low a
tone of voice that scarcely any of them
reached the Treasury Bench. I under-
stand that he objects to the cost of
the Land Commission for England. I
think the hon. Member can have very
little idea of the enormous amount of
work this Land Commission has to do.
The whole of the duties of the Inclo-
sure Commission fall upon it, and they
involve considerable and very arduous
labours. In the next place, advances of
public money, which are made for the
improvement of land estates under the
Inclosure Acts, are made by the Land
Commission; and those advances repre-
sent a very considerable sum. The
Land Commission has also other duties
which devolve upon it under the Settled
Land Act of 1881. The Land Commis-
sioners have also large duties thrown
upon them in connection with the Tithe
Commission. I happened the other day
to meet Sir James Caird, and he told
me that his time, and that of his
Colleagues, was occupied, to a consider-
able extent, in consequence of the
labours thrown upon the Commission in
connection with the extraordinary tithe
in Kent. I understood him to say that
it would occupy a greater part of the
time of the Commission for the next six
months. I have never heard it alleged
within recent years that the Land Com-
mission for England was not accom-
plishing most valuable work, and that
it was well worth the money laid out
upon it. I feel quite sure that the hon.
Member would not wish to deprive Sir
James Caird of the position and salary
he enjoys for the duties he performs,
because I understand that, at the pre-
sent moment, Sir James Caird is one of
the great authorities on land on which
the Party opposite most rely in connec-
tion with their policy under the Land
Act.
Mr. Sexton


MR. OLANOY: I will pass by the
sneer which the noble Lord made as to
the nature of my remarks. All I will
say is that they are founded on the con-
tents of this Report, which I do not
believe the noble Lord can have read.
Indeed, nobody on the Treasury Bench
appears to have read it. Anybody
who has read it will see at once the
small amount of business which has
been transacted by the Commissioners.
I defy anyone to read that Report, and
to say that the amount of business done
is in any degree proportionate to the
amount of money spent upon it. I shall
certainly go to a division if the noble
Lord will not give some assurance that
he will require from the Commissioners
a Return of the number of days' work
they transact in a year, and the hours
they are occupied each day.
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
I admit that the Vote has not been very
fully explained; but upon the Report a
fuller explanation will be given by some-
one more intimately acquainted with the
Department.
MR. CLANCY: Will the noble Lord
require from the Commissioners a Re-
turn of the number of days' work they
transact in a year ?
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
No; I cannot do that.
Mn. OLANOY: Such a Return is re-
quired from the Judges of the County
Court in Ireland.
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
I have already promised that a fuller
explanation will be given on the Re-
port.
MR. CLANCY: I think that would
be altogether too late. I wish to make
this further remark. It has struck me,
as a new Member, that it is extraordi-
nary what pains the House of Com-
mons takes in sending out Commis-
sioners, and in printing Reports, and
then the extraordinary laxity it dis-
plays-especially on the part of Mem-
bers in charge of the Votes-to make
themselves masters of the contents of the
Reports presented to them.
MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.): The
noble Lord the Leader of the Govern-
ment in this House has certainly failed
to give a satisfactory explanation of this
Vote. Sir James Caird may be a very
able gentleman; but, at the same time,
it does not appear that the Land Com-
missioners have any sufficient amount


{COMMONS}


31 Supply- Civil






33 Supply- Civil


of work to transact. I, therefore, think
it ought to be amalgamated with some
other Office, so that the abilities of the
present officials might be utilized in
some other direction. The noble Lord
has stated that one of the duties con-
nected with the Office is the control
of loans to landlords for the improve-
ment of land in this country. Now,
I maintain that the lending of money
by the Government for the purpose of
improving land is not a proper outlay
of public money. We know of many
cases where money has been ostensibly
borrowed for the purpose of improving
land which has really been utilized for
some other purpose, and certificates have
been taken from engineers or surveyors
certifying that there has been a larger
outlay than was originally expected. I
have been informed by an hon. Friend
that he went one day with a certain
surveyor to survey the land upon which
an outlay of this nature was taking
place. I believe it had some connection
with drainage ; but the entire extent of
the survey made by this gentleman
was that he stood on one of the fences
and surveyed with his eye the amount
of drainage alleged to have taken place.
That is one sample of the way in which
the public money is expended. I quite
agree with my hon. Friend the Member
for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy) that the
expense incurred in the payment of
these Commissioners is altogether dis-
proportionate to the work they have to
do; and, in the next place, I contend
that part of the work they do is work
that should not be undertaken by this
or any other Government. Another
part of the duty of those gentlemen is
to give certificates as to expenditure
upon life property. I do not see why
there should be a tribunal of that sort
paid by the State; at any rate, the per-
sons who derive benefit from the service
rendered should recoup the Government
for the expenditure incurred in main-
taining a staff to carry out the survey.
In this particular instance it does not
appear to me that any amount of fees
charged would be sufficient to recoup
the country for the expenditure in-
curred.
MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton):
I understand the noble Lord to give
an unconditional promise that upon the
Report the Minister in charge of the
Vote shall make an explanation in order
VOL. CCCIX. THIRDD SERIES ]


to meet the objections which have been
raised. Under these circumstances there
would be clearly an opportunity of di-
viding upon the Vote if the explanation
was not considered satisfactory. The hon.
Member has done good service in point-
ing out what the Vote is; but I think,
in view of the promise which has been
made, he may now withdraw his oppo-
sition to the Vote.
MR. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.): My
principal object in calling attention to
the matter, and not taking a division
upon it, was to enter a protest against
what I consider to be a scandal in pass-
ing over, without taking any notice,
important Reports of this kind. I con-
sider it altogether improper to ask the
Committee to vote large sums of money,
year after year, without knowing the
purposes for which the money is voted.
I certainly shall take every opportunity
of obtaining from Ministers in charge of
these Votes a full explanation of their
object, and the way in which they are
dealt with. At present the Represen-
tatives of the people are altogether
without knowledge, and do not under-
stand what they are doing, when they
are voting away the public money.
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY(Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.): With
regard to the expenditure of this Com-
mission, probably the hen. Member is
aware that a considerable portion of it
is returned to the Exchequer by the
fees paid for various purposes. In fact,
the greater part of the amount voted
for the Commission is repaid by fees of
one kind and another. In consequence
of a Motion which was made in the
House of Commonsin 1878, a scaleof fees
in the shape of stamps was prescribed
by which a sum of 7,000 or 8,00
a-year is raised. These ad valorem fees
are paid into the Exchequer. Therefore,
the argument of the hen. Member, that
the work of the Commissioners is dis-
proportionate to the expenditure, is not
strictly correct. As far as the payments
by the Exchequer are concerned they
are very much less than the hon. Mem-
ber imagines. I trust that, with this
explanation, the hen. Gentleman, having
done good service by drawing attention
in so pointed a manner to the question,
will not put the Committee to the trouble
of a division. So far as the investiga-
tion of the Government is concerned, I
can assure the hon. Gentleman that the
0


ISErTEMrBER 10, 18861


Service Es~timates. 34







Service Estimates. 86


work is not extravagantly paid for, and
that very good public service is done by
the Commission. I will promise to look
carefully into the matter between this
and the Report, and to make then a
complete statement as to the work done
and the actual net cost of the Com-
mission.
MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton):
I understood the noble Lord to give a
distinct promise that that should be
done.
MR. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.): I
did not attempt to conceal from the Com-
mittee that fees to the amount of 18,000
were received; but I maintain that those
fees would be received in any case, and
that a clerk with 100 a-year would re-
ceive them, and would do quite as much
work as three Commissioners, who cost
thecountry something like 5,000 a-year.
SIR JOSEPHIM'KENNA (Monaghan,
S.) : What we wish particularly to know
is the amount of time and attention de-
voted by the Commissioners to the work
for which they are so highly paid.
SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT
(Sussex, North-West): The three Com-
missioners have to inquire into matters
of a most important character, and the
amount of work they perform is far be-
yond what the hon. Gentleman has any
conception of.
Vote agreed to.
(3.) Motion made, and Question pro-
posed,
"That a sum, not exceeding 175,956, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum
necessary to defray the Charge which will come
in course of payment during the year ending
on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries
and Expenses of the Local Government Board,
including various Grants in Aid of Local Taxa-
tion."
MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Done-
gal, E.) : I propose to move the reduc-
tion of this Vote by the sum of 16,500,
that being the item which, under Sub-
head U, is to be appropriated for public
vaccination. The reason why I make
this Motion is that I believe the sum
of 16,500 is a mainspring, or, at any
rate, one of the mainsprings of a system
which is in itself immoral, stupid, and
cruel, and which inflicts immense physi-
cal suffering upon the objects of the
operation, and a needless amount of
mental anguish upon tens of thousands
of fathers and mothers in this country.
This charge of 16,500 is made under
Mr. Jackson


Section 5 of the Vaccination Act of
1857; and the terms of that section are
that on the Report made to the Lords of
Her Majesty's Council with regard to
the number and quality of the vaccina-
tions performed in the several vaccina-
tion districts of England, awards are
made to the public vaccinators, from
time to time, by payment out of the
money provided by Parliament, and
under regulations authorized to be made
to any medical officer, in addition to the
payments received by them from the
Guardians and Overseers, such further
payments as shallnot exceed in any case Is.
per child who should have been success-
fully vaccinated. The Committee will
see that that provision is not imperative,
but that it is merely permissive. It says
that their Lordships may, out of the
money provided by Parliament, and
which may or may not be provided by
Parliament, grant these rewards in addi-
tion to the sum which was received from
the rates. What I propose to do is to
ask the Committee not to provide any
money for that purpose. The Committee
will perceive that this pecuniary reward
is, in the first place, limited to England.
You look in vain for any similar charge
on account of skill at all corresponding
to the charge in Vote No. 34, or in the
corresponding Vote for Ireland, No. 38.
It is, first of all, a reward entirely re-
served for this country. Moreover, it
is to be charged in addition to the
amount which may be received from the
Guardians or the Overseers of the Dis-
trict Unions. It will also be noticed
that the amount asked for this year is
in excess of the item of last year. If
I remember rightly, 15,800 was the
sum voted last year, and this year it
has gone up now to 16,500. Now, the
history of this item is very remarkable.
When, in the year 1868, the first charge
was made on account of public vaccina-
tion, the sum asked for was only 2,700
odd; but by 1872, in four years, it had
risen to 6,000, and in 1878, or six
years later, it had doubled that amount,
being then slightly over 12,000. Last
year it was 15,800, and this year it
amounts to the sum I have named-
16,500. Since 1868 there has been
paid to the public vaccinators of Eng-
land, under this head, no less a sum than
200,000. And what does it supple-
ment? It supplements a charge of no
less than 120,000 a-year, taken out of


1COMM1ONS 1







Service Estimates. 88


the pockets of the ratepayers of this
part of the Kingdom-all of it for public
vaccination, and in support of a system
which probably brings into the pockets
of medical men in England alone some-
thing like 250,000 annually. The
charge is part and parcel of a system
which tends to establish, and year by
year to strengthen, a vested interest in
an influential body, the members of
which, at any rate, it may be reasonably
regarded as calculated to induce them to
maintain a system which is opposed to
the moral sense of a very considerable
section of the community. It is also
opposed, as I said before, to the parental
instincts of tens of thousands of con-
scientious people in this country. The
defence of vaccination itself by a large
number of medical men is by means
of this Vote, and by means of similar
charges; and it is a defence, not of
medical theory, but of pecuniary vested
interest. It is not more surprising, under
the circumstances, that medical men
should be so obstinately wedded to the
maintenance of the present system, than
it was surprising that the Irish Church
Establishment should have been de-
fended by the clergymen of the Estab-
lishment, or that the institution of slavery
should have been maintained by the
slaveowners of the Southern States of
America. It is no more surprising than
the resistance and the unscrupulous op-
position which was offered by many ship-
owners of this country to Mr. Plimsoll's
Bill some years ago, when he endea-
voured to protect the seamen of the
United Kingdom from the unscrupulous
proceedings of certain shipowners, who
were in the habit of sending men in
certain cases to almost certain death in
unseaworthy vessels. How does this
money go ? I find that the public vac-
cinator in Birmingham gets between
200 and 800 every year. A similar
sum is annually divided between three
public vaccinators in Liverpool. There
is a similar charge for Manchester; and
about the same amount is paid in St.
Pancras and London, not every year,
but every alternate year. Well, what
is it for ? At the end of the section of
the Act to which I have already referred
it is stated as being paid for successful
vaccination. Well, Sir, is it successful
vaccination ? Let us judge of it by the
result. In 1881 there was a Return of
the number of births and of the num-


her of children vaccinated, and it seems
from this Return that the births in Bir-
mingham numbered 9,000, but those who
were successfully vaccinated were only
8,000. Of course, a number of children
would die unvaccinated. As would al-
ways be the case in every population,
there would be a number of children who
would be presumably at their birth not
fit subjects for vaccination. The per-
centage of children unaccounted for by
vaccination was only 1"5. Under these
circumstances, one might reasonably
expect that, if the system is to be justi-
fied, Birmingham, as compared with
other places where vaccination has not
been so successfully carried out, would
have been singularly free from small-
pox. But what is the fact? The epi-
demic of small-pox in Birmingham has
always been of the same severe descrip-
tion. Then, again, with regard to Lon-
don, which, in the opinion of the autho-
rities at the Local Government Board, is
a very successful instance of the satis-
factory treatment of vaccination, we
know that small-pox is not only occasion-
ally an epidemic, but that it is practi-
cally an endemic. We never get rid of
small pox in London, although the
people of London are more completely
vaccinated than almost any other portion
of the United Kingdom. Well, Sir, in
London, in every one of the 19 different
Unions, these payments are made an-
nually to certain public vaccinators.
What is the result ? There was an
epidemic of small-pox last year, and the
number of small-pox patients who en-
tered the small-pox hospital, I will not
say in London alone, numbered no less
than 9,000, being larger by 4,000 than
the number who entered the hospital in
the previous year. The number in 1884
was 5,000, and in 1885 it was 9,000.
Yet in the town of Leicester, where not
more than 40 per cent of the children
born were vaccinated, the small-pox
hospital was tenantless. I ask, there-
fore, if it is not fair to say that the suc-
cessful vaccination, for which this Vote
was taken year by year, and for which
this Vote grows so rapidly year by year
-that it is not a ridiculous and mis-
chievous delusion, at any rate, open to
serious doubt as to its value ? Can there
be any reason for wonder that in con-
siderable districts of the country where
the people have had a fair opportunity
of judging of the relative safety of


37 sppycii


ISUMMMEBt. 10, 18861







-erOvice Estimates. 40


the vaccinated and non-vaccinated con-
dition-such places, for example, as
Keighley, Dewsbury, Brighton, Bed-
ford, and Leicester-they should object
not only to this particular item, but
to the whole system with which it is
bound up ? They regard it as a great
hardship and as a public scandal-a
scandal both public and private. From
what I have been able to learn, I believe
that at least one-third of the population
of this country do not believe in vacci-
nation at all; and most assuredly, out-
side, the majority of the population is
strongly opposed to compulsory vaccina-
tion. But, Sir, the system by which this
payment of rewards is made for the
effective poisoning of healthy children
is a part and parcel of a most direct
incentive to a most cruel and persecuting
system. It is about as cruel a system
of persecution as can very well be con-
ceived. It makes it to the interest of
hundreds of thousands of men, educated
men, men of refinement and remarkable
for their kindly and charitable disposi-
tion, to seek to maintain and almost in-
sist upon the systematic persecution,
prosecution, and punishment by fine and
imprisonment, repeated sometimes over
and over again, of persons who, on moral
and religious grounds, or on matters
personal to themselves, arrived at by
reason of terrible personal experience,
object to this filthy rite being imposed
on their children. It explains the secret
why we so often hear of some poor man
or woman who has had his or her first
child done to death by vaccination, or,
at any rate, permanently disfigured by
vaccination-it explains why it is that in
spite of that man's or woman's instinct,
and possibly in spite of their consciences,
they are sent to prison or fined over and
over again. I do not look at this matter
from a sentimental or from an hysterical
point of view. I am not given, I think,
to look at anything from an hysterical
point of view. On the contrary, as the
son of a physician, the brother of an-
other, and the nephew of a third, I am
as much disposed as any layman to take
a professional view of the matter. I
have also looked at the other side of the
question. I have inquired into the
matter, and I. have read what I could
lay my hands upon in reference to it. I
may say that most of us have had a
good deal of literature sent to us upon
the subject. I have also listened to
Mr. Arthur O' Connor


many discussions upon it, and the result
is that I have become convinced that vac-
cination is neither a preventive nor a pal-
liative. I believe that the whole system
is a huge and deplorable delusion. I
have stated that I intend to move the
reduction of the Vote. I do not know
what amount of support I may receive;
but even if I should find myself almost
alone, which I certainly hope will not
be the case, I should still conceive it my
duty to take this step in order to protest,
not only against a system which I be-
lieve to be wrong, and in itself immoral,
stupid, and cruel, but also in the hope
of drawing still more public attention to
the fact that there are, from time to
time, many instances in this country of
men and women who conscientiously
object to vaccination, and who are syste-
matically prosecuted, but whom the
Local Government Board has it in its
power to protect if they will-persons
who are subjected to repeated punish-
ment, and whose lives have been per-
manently darkened by the recollection
of the loss of children, and of the dis-
figurement of their offspring, and who,
in consequence, have a conscientious ob-
jection to subject their children to what
they believe to be not only a filthy but
an injurious operation. But even if I
do not carry with me either the sym-
pathy or the votes of any considerable
number of the Committee, I hope, at
any rate, that I shall be able to obtain
from the right hon. Gentleman who re-
presents the Local Government Board
here to-day an assurance that the autho-
rities of the Local Government Board
will do what lies in their power to pro-
tect the people I have referred to, who
are made to suffer in the way they do
because they entertain some conscien-
tious scruples, which, although some
persons might scarcely appreciate them,
all of us can heartily sympathize with.
I beg to move the reduction of the Vote
by the sum of 16,500.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding 6159,456, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum
necessary to defray the Charge which will come
in course of payment during the year ending on
the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and
Expenses of the Local Government Board, in-
cluding various Grants in Aid of Local Taxa-
tion."-(Mr. Arthur O'Connor.)
THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL
GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. RITCHIE)


-39 Supp~-- cizil


{COMMONS}'







Service Estimates. 42


(Tower Hamlets, St. George's): Consi-
deringthe importance of the subject which
has been introduced by the hon. Gentle-
man, I think it better to reply at once to
the remarks which he has made, rather
than wait for other Members to take part
in the discussion. The hon. Member evi-
dently anticipates that he will only be
followed into the Lobby by an exceed-
ingly small number of Members; and I
must say that, in my opinion, it would
be nothing short of a national disaster
if the hon. Gentleman's expectation in
this respect was not realized. I cannot
conceive anything which would be more
likely to inflict injury on the public
good than that the impression should go
abroad that a considerable section of the
House shared the objections to vaccina-
tion which the hon. Gentleman has
stated. The hon. Gentleman divided
his objections into two heads. First of
all, he objects altogether to the amount
which is spent upon vaccination; and, in
the next place, he objects to the parti-
cular Vote now under discussion, which
Vote is, as he rightly stated, a Vote
given by this House to be distributed
to the medical vaccination officers as a
reward for meritorious successful cases
of vaccination. In reference to the gene-
ral question of vaccination, I should
have been glad if the hon. Gentleman
had given me some Notice that he de-
sired to enter into so very important a
question. But the question is one which
lies in so small a compass, that perhaps
it is hardly necessary that much Notice
should be given. The hon. Member has
used some strong language regarding
the system of vaccination. He has de-
nounced it as immoral, stupid, and
cruel; arguing that it was the cause of
the effective poisoning of healthy chil-
dren, and that it is of no avail for the
purpose for which it has been instituted.
Now, Sir, I have here a Paper contain-
ing extracts from the annual Report of
the Medical Officer of the Local Govern-
meht Board upon vaccination. I shall
only trouble the Committee with one or
two extracts from that Report, in order
to show what, in the opinion of the
Medical Officer of the Local Government
Board, has been the result of vaccina-
tion. The hon. Gentleman alluded to
the cases of Birmingham and London,
and he stated that, seeing the large
number of meritorious cases of vaccina-
tion that had occurred, it might be rea-


sonably supposed that vaccination was
in a favourable condition in those
places; but, nevertheless, that neither
Birmingham nor London could com-
pare favourably, so far as small-pox
is concerned, with many other towns
in which vaccination is not so success-
fully carried out. Of course, the hen.
Gentleman knows very well that the
conditions both of London and Birming-
ham are exceptional. The fact of the
greater crowding of the population is
perhaps sufficient to account for small-
pox when it does occur, being very rife.
With reference to the children of Lon-
don, I should like to quote an extract
from the Report of the Medical Officer
of the Local Government Board. He
says-
"It has been already said that in 1881,
among 55,000 children who had not been vacci-
nated, 782 deaths from small-pox occurred.
Among 861,000 children who had been vacci-
nated there were 125 deaths from small-pox. If
the London children under 10 years of age who
were unvaccinated had the protection which the
current vaccination gives, not 782 deaths would
have occurred; but at the outside nine would
have died from small-pox. If the 861,000 vac-
cinated children had died at the rate of the
55,000 unvaccinated children, we should not
have been considering 125 deaths from small-
pox, but we should have been confronted with
an additional 12,000 more deaths from small-
pox occurring during the year in the London
population under 10 years of age."
The number of deaths that actually oc-
curred from small-pox was not 6,000 or
1,000, but, at the outside, 125 ; and if
there had been no vaccination there
would have been, instead of 125 small-
pox deaths among the vaccinated chil-
dren, more than 12,000 deaths occurring
from small-pox during the year among
children under 10 years of ago. There-
fore, in spite of what the hon. Member
has said, it must be evident to the Com-
mittee that if we were to revert to
savage times when there was no vaccina-
tion, London, Birmingham, and all
large towns would show very different
results from those to which we are now
able, happily, to point in consequence
of vaccination. Now, Sir, the hen. Gen-
tleman has spoken about the action of
the Local Government Board, and the
conscientious objections of parents to
vaccination. I will go this far with him,
and say, that I have the utmost sym-
pathy with parents who conscientiously
object to vaccination; and while I shall
certainly feel it my duty to use every


41 Sucpply-CCivil


ISEFUMBFIL~ 10, 18861







43 Supply-Civil


exertion in my power to secure the end
for which Parliament has passed these
Acts, yet I would be very sorry indeed
that the Local Government Board should
be made the engine of any unnecessary
persecution of parents who entertain
conscientious objections to vaccination.
The Committee will see that it is abso-
lutely essential we should use every
effort in our power to see that the Acts
are carried out for the public good. I
may say that, with reference to the
action of the Local Government Board,
they do not require that anything in
the nature of persecution should take
place. I will give the Committee some
extracts from a -letter which was sent
in September, 1875, by the Local Go
vernment Board to the Guardians of the
Evesham Union, which letter was sub-
sequently distributed very largely among
the Guardians of the various Unions, in
order to show what the views of the Local
Government Board are with regard to
the extent to which pressure should take
place in respect of vaccination. The
extracts which I propose to read will
show the hon. Gentleman that there is
no desire on the part of the Local Go-
vernment Board to go beyond what it is
their plain duty to do. The letter says-
"It is distinctly contemplated by Article 16
of the Board's General Order of the 31st of
October, 1874, that, independently of any pro-
ceedings which may be taken against the per-
son in default, under Section 29 of the Vacci-
nation Act, 1867, the vaccination officer shall
be authorized to take proceedings against him
if he continue contumacious, at least once also
under Section 31 of that Act. Until, therefore,
proceedings under the latter section have been
taken in a case and a conviction obtained, the
Board considered that the general means, which
the law provides with a view to insure the vac-
cination of a child, have not been used. The
Board would here observe that, from the in-
formation in their possession, it is not clear
whether all the means above alluded to have
been resorted to in the case of Mr. Hensley.
The Board, at the same time, direct me to
point out that, by Article 16 of their above-
mentioned Order, it is provided that in any
case in which a magistrate's order has been
obtained, and summary proceedings have been
taken under Section 31 of the Vaccination Act,
1867, no further proceedings shall be taken by
the vaccination officer without the express in-
structions of the Guardians."
The hon. Gentleman will see that it is
the duty of the Vaccination Officer to
take action up to a certain point, and
that he cannot take further action with-
out the consent of the Guardians. The
letter goes on to say-
1Mr. Ritchie


The intention of this provision is that the
Guardians should carefully consider, with regard
to each individual case, the effect which a con-
tinuance of proceedings is likely to have in pro-
curing the vaccination of the individual child,
and in insuring the observance of the law in
the Union generally. The Board may further
state that it is, on the one hand, undeniable
that a repetition of legal proceedings has, in
numerous cases, resulted in the vaccination of a
child when such vaccination has not been pro-
cured by the previous proceedings; and it is
therefore important, with a view of securing a
proper observance of the law, that parents should
be well assured that proceedings in case of non-
compliance with its requirements will not be
lightly discontinued. On the other hand, the
Board are prepared to admit that, when in a
particular case repeated prosecutions have
failed in their object, it becomes necessary to
carefully consider the question whether the con-
tinuance of a fruitless contest withtheparentmay
not have a tendency to produce mischievous
results, by exciting sympathy with the person
prosecuted, and thus creating a more extended
operation to the law. The Board entertain no
doubt that, in all cases of the kind in question,
the Guardians, having before them the pre-
ceding observations, will not fail to exercise the
discretionary powers confided to them in the
manner best calculated to give effect to the
policy of the law."
The hon. Gentleman will thus see that
the object of the Local Government
Board is this-that every proceeding
which the Guardians feel they are justi-
fied in adopting should be taken so long
as they feel convinced that the object
and aim of the Vaccination Acts are
likely to be secured, but that it is not
desirable to make martyrs of those who
steadily refuse to carry out the law,
and where there is reason to believe that
no amount of prosecution would secure
the desired result. With reference to
the other point raised by the hon. Gen-
tleman as to the extra payment made
to the medical officers for successful
vaccination, it is perfectly obvious that
if what I have stated already is accepted
by the Committee as being true, and
that it is desirable that effective vacci-
nation should take place-it is obvious
that every precaution should be taken
that the operation is performed with
due care and proper skill. The object
which Parliament had in sanctioning
these extra payments to the Vaccination
Officers was to secure that vaccination
should be effected with proper skill, and
in a proper manner, and in that way
which is best for securing the object we
have in view. The hon. Gentleman has
spoken of this additional payment as if
it were something over and above that


{COMMONS}


Service Estimates.






45 Supply-Civil


which the Vaccination Officer has any
right to calculate upon as payment for
the duty performed. But it is perfectly
clear that these rewards for meritorious
vaccinations do enter into the calcula-
tion of medical officers charged with
that duty, and that they have considered
it a portion of the remuneration which
they are entitled to receive. Perhaps
the hon. Gentleman is not aware that
these extra payments were made on the
recommendation of a Select Committee
of the House of Commons, which sat on
the Vaccination Bill of 1866. A careful
examination was also made into the
whole question by Mr. Lingen when he
was at the Treasury, and he was of opi-
nion that the payment was one which
ought to be continued. I hope I have
made it sufficiently clear to the hon.
Gentleman that, in the first place, as
far as our information goes, vaccination
is highly beneficial, and ought not to be
departed from. In the second place,
I hope that I have also made it clear
that the arrangement which the Com-
mittee is now asked to upset has the
sanction of a Select Committee of the
House of Commons, has been inquired
into, and has been approved by an
efficient officer of the Treasury, and is
distinctly advantageous to the public.
As to the action of the Local Govern-
ment Board, it is its duty to insist, as
far as possible, on the law being carried
out. As far as I am concerned, I am
extremely anxious to do everything in
my power to secure the effective work-
ing of the Vaccination Acts. I quite
admit that there are persons who are
conscientiously opposed to vaccination,
and that in certain cases unhappy re-
sults have taken place. Whenever a
case is laid before me where a suspicion
may exist on the part of a parent that
his child has suffered or died in conse-
quence of any fault in the mode of vac-
cination, or in the material used, I shall
always consider it my duty to take every
step in order to clear up any doubt
which may exist on the subject. I be-
lieve there would be nothing more pre-
judicial to vaccination generally than to
allow it to go forth that such cases have
occurred without any attempt to ascer-
tain the truth of the matter.
MB. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Done-
gal, E.): I admit that the right hon.
Gentleman has some ground for com-
plaining that I did not give him Notice


of my intention to bring forward the
question; but I think I may say truth-
fully that the right hon. Gentleman does
not appear to have required any Notice
of the matter; for I feel that even if
the right hon. Gentleman had had notes
in his possession he could not have
given a much more effective answer to
my proposition than he has given. That
answer is drawn from the Reports of
the Medical Officers; but it is a purely
hypothetical answer-namely, that if so-
and-so had been the case, then that
something else might have been expected
to happen. There is nothing more sub-
stantial than that in the whole of this
Report of the Medical Officer of the
Local Government Board; and not only
is that the sort of statement we have
from the Government Officer, but we
have the same answer from other Medi-
cal Officers interested in the matter, who
reported on the matter, and who number
about 1,000. It is quite true that this
amount of money is looked upon by the
public vaccinators as part of the emolu-
ment to be paid to them, as a matter of
course, in addition to that which they
draw from the rates. But I object to it
on the ground that it is part and parcel
of a vicious system which is intimately
connected with it, and of which it is one
of the main springs. The right hon.
Gentleman seems to be satisfied him self-
and most of the Committee will be satis-
fied with him-that the vaccination is
effective, that it is preventive, or, at any
rate, protective. If so, let those who
believe in vaccination get vaccinated;
if they are vaccinated, and vaccination
is a protection, then they are saved. But
what right have they to insist that their
neighbours, who have conscientious ob-
jections to vaccination, should also un-
dergo the operation, although they do
not believe in its utility ? The right hon.
Gentleman spoke of "savage times"
before vaccination was instituted. Now,
I really believe that the day will come-
and I hope it will come soon-when the
people of this and other countries will
look back with amazement at the hor-
rible fetish which seems to have seized
upon some people, and is now sanctioned
by the law of the land. With regard to
the directions which the Local Govern-
ment Board have given to the Boards of
Guardians, and the letter of instructions
which the right hon. Gentleman has
quoted, I wish to observe that in reality


ISErTEMnBER 10, 18861


~Service E81imale&. 46







47 Supply-Civil


these directions are not likely to have I
anything like direct control over the t
action of any large number of Boards of t
Guardians in the country. Many of the
Provincial Boards of Guardians are im- i
bued with a great deal of the spirit of
Bumbledom; and when their officers go
out and give directions to poor people
to do this, that, and the other, if it is i
done with the sanction of the Board of t
Guardians, it very often happens that
however hard the directions may be,
and however trying to those who receive
them, the Board of Guardians show very
little consideration to the feelings of the
people, and have no compunction what-
ever in putting in force, to the very full,
what powers they have. I maintain
that poor people require some stronger
protection than is contained in that Cir-
cular Letter, and I had hoped to hear
from the right hon. Gentleman that the
Local Government Board is prepared to
issue something a great deal more strin-
gent to the Local Authorities in order
that the people I refer to may be pro-
tected. I know it is perfectly true that
the legal proceedings taken in some
cases have caused parents to get their
children vaccinated who otherwise would
not have done so; but what expense to
the parents' peace of mind, and what
misery must these prosecutions have
caused ? These poor people have been
really exposed to one or other of two
alternatives--they must submit their
children to this rite which they both
detest and abominate, or render them-
selves liable to legal proceedings, which
occasion a considerable expenditure of
money, and also threaten them in the
immediate future with possible restraint
and imprisonment. The result of vac-
cination is certainly not so satisfactory
as many people think, and I am satisfied
of this-that the Local Government
Board, in not restraining the hands of
the legal authorities, are causing an
amount of misery which is, to a great
extent, preventible, and ought at no
time to be made excessive.
Ms. TAPLING (Leicestershire, Har-
borough): I have the honour to repre-
sent one of the Divisions of Leicester-
shire, and the Committee will be aware
that the town of Leicester is the centre
of the anti-vaccination movement. Per-
sonally, I am in favour of compulsory
vaccination; but I have given a pledge
to my constituents that I will vote for
Mr. Arthur O'Connor


in inquiry into the subject of vaccina-
ion if the proposal should be made to
he House, and I now throw that out as
a suggestion for the Government to take
nto consideration. I think that an in-
quiry could only be productive of good.
It appears to me that if vaccination is a
good thing, it can have nothing to fear
rom an inquiry; and if it is wrong, then
;he sooner it is done away with the
better. If the inquiry should prove, as
I have no doubt it may, that vaccination
s a good and beneficial thing, then I
think it would have the effect of re-
moving the prejudices which now exist
against it in the minds of people who are
really conscientious in the view in which
they take.
Ms. W. A. M'ARTHUR (York, E.R.,
Buckrose): I do not think it ought to
be supposed that every hon. Member
who opposes compulsory vaccination in
this House does not himself believe in
vaccination. I believe in vaccination,
and have myself been vaccinated; but I
have a strong opinion that Parliament
has no right to enforce a practice to
which many thousands of people in
England have well-defined and strong
objections, and who make it almost a
part of their religion to resist it. The
right hon. Gentleman the President of
the Local Government Board has inti-
mated that he does not wish to see
prosecutions instituted except where it
can be shown that such prosecutions
would be effective, and would secure
obedience to the requirements of the
law.
ME. RITCHIE: I do not wish to be
misunderstood. What I said was that
the Local Government Board put the
law in force in the hope that people
would obey it; but I added that the
Local Government Board would not en-
courage the Guardians in entering upon
a course of persecution with a view of
obtaining that which there was every
reason to believe they would never ob-
tain. At the same time, the Local Go-
vernment Board certainly would not
consider that they had put in force all
the powers vested in them, unless they
took steps to ascertain whether a certain
amount of pressure would not bring
about compliance with the provisions of
the law.
MR. W. A. M'ARTHUR: Would
the right hon. Gentleman suggest that
fresh prosecutions should be entered


servicee Estimate&. 48


{COMMONS}






49 Supply-Civil


into after the first prosecution has failed
to bring about a satisfactory result ?
MR. RITCHIE: I have already read
an extract from the letter of the Local
Government Board to the Guardians of
the Evesham Union, which states that-
"It is distinctly contemplated by Article 16
of the Board's General Order of the 31st Oc-
tober, 1874, tlat independently of any proceed-
ings which may be taken against the person in
fault under Section 29 of the Vaccination Act,
1867, the vaccination officer shall be authorized
to take proceedings against him if he continue
contumacious under Section 31 of that Act."
Mn. W. A. M'ARTHUR: Then I
understand that the feeling of the right
hon. Gentleman is this-that if a pro-
secution has been entered into under
the Act, the Board of Guardians shall
have authority to take proceedings
in further cases where there is a con-
tumacious non-performance of the act
of vaccination. Now, I would suggest
that the Local Government Board should
allow a licence to be taken out by the
parents who are prepared to take an
affidavit that they have conscientious
objections to the performance of vac-
cination. Many people would be pre-
pared to pay, if necessary, what would
virtually be a fine for the non-perform-
ance of vaccination ; and this would be
a much less degrading practice than
that which now prevails of dragging
people before legal tribunals for the
non-performance of a rite to which they
have strongly-defined and conscientious
objections. I may add that in many
cases there is an impression that the
children of poor people have not been
vaccinated with lymph as pure and as
good as that which the children of the
rich can procure. I think it would be
possible, without clashing to any great
extent with the existing law, to obviate
what is certainly regarded as a hardship
by persons who have conscientious ob-
jections to vaccination.
SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA (Monaghan,
S.) : I have a strong belief in the effi-
cacy of vaccination. I have myself been
vaccinated on more than one occasion,
and all my children have been vacci-
nated. Indeed, there are no more
strenuous advocates of the principle
than the Irish people, and there is no
place where vaccination has so very few
opponents as in Ireland. The question
now before the Committee, however,
does not depend upon whether vaccina-
tion is good or not, but whether we


ought not to procure, by the exercise of
economy, some reduction in this item of
16,500. I may point out that neither
in Ireland nor in Scotland has there
been any such Supplementary Vote as
is represented by this sum of 16,500
for England; and although I should not
be prepared to press for the entire dis-
allowance of this grant, still I think it
is well worth consideration whether the
system of economy, which has succeeded
so well in Ireland and Scotland, should
not be followed in England also.
MR. MOLLOY (King's Co., Birr): I
regret that I cannot agree with my hon.
Friend the Member for East Donegal
(Mr. Arthur O'Connor) in the proposal
he has made, because I believe that
vaccination is one of the greatest bless-
ings of modern days. Nor can I agree
in the suggestion made by the hon. Mem-
ber for Yorkshire (Mr. W. A. M'Arthur)
that licences should be granted to those
heads of families who have an objection
to .vaccination itself. It should be re-
membered that there is a second party
to that consideration-and that is the
general public. Personally, I am strongly
in favour of vaccination; and I think
that if people were released from the
Compulsory Clauses of the Act it might
be the means of introducing infectious
diseases into the very house in which I
live. I have no doubt there is a very
great objection, and a conscientious ob-
jection, among a great number of the
people of this country in regard to vacci-
nation, and I believe that it arises to
a great extent from the fact that the
lymph which is supplied is impure.
Whatever the case may be, there is,
undoubtedly, a conscientious objection
among a large class of persons in the
country to compulsory vaccination; and
yet I am of those who are prepared
to maintain vaccination even in its com-
pulsory form. I think it would be well
to make an effort to convert people who
object to it to my way of thinking, and
to get them to recognize the extreme
value of the principle, the validity of
which modern science is confirming. I
see no reason why an inquiry should not
be made. It is all very well to say that
we cannot inquire into the matter be-
cause we have already settled it. It
must be remembered that at the time it
was settled we had the mind of the
public with us. Circumstances may have
changed since, and public opinion may


ISEFTEMBER 10, 18861


Servie -Estimates. 50






Sei vice Estimates. 52


have veered round in the matter. There
are certainly a large number of people
who are conscientiously opposed to com-
pulsory vaccination. Therefore I think
that an inquiry may be valuable in con-
verting those who are opposed to us
by giving them further proofs of the
importance of vaccination. I myself
looked into the matter somewhat seri-
ously some years ago, and I became ab-
solutely convinced by the evidence which
was placed before me. I believe that
others would be similarly convinced if
the facts of the case were clearly made
known. There is no reason whatever
why an inquiry should not take place.
The present Government is a Govern-
ment of Inquiry-a Government of Com-
missions, and a little Commission more
or less is not likely to injure the sta-
bility of the Government. It will satisfy
a large number of those who have helped
to keep the Government in power; and
I think it would be a very desirable ex-
tension of that policy of Her Majesty's
Government which takes the form of
the appointment of little Commissions.
Mn. BRADLAUGH (Northampton):
The Committee seems unaware that
at present the practice prevails of
licensing persons who object to vac-
cination. At the present moment any
person who can afford to pay the
fines imposed escapes the Vaccina-
tion Law. Those persons who pay the
fines obtain an immunity, while those
who cannot do so are sent to gaol. The
law, therefore, is inoperative against
the rich, and oppressive against the
poor. I have a case in my own mind in
which an hon. Member of this House-
a very much respected Member-was
summoned for the non-vaccination of his
child. Probably because he was a Mem-
ber of this House he was let off with one
insignificant fine, and has never been
troubled since ; whereas another person,
who did not occupy the same social posi-
tion, has been fined more than 30 times,
and even sent to gaol. I believe that
there is an enormous feeling arising in
the country against this system of perse-
cution. I do not think it right to take up
the time of the Committee by discussing
the merits of vaccination; but, seeing
that the operation of the law has been
made most oppressive, I shall support
the hon. Member for East Donegal
(Mr. Arthur O'Connor) if he goes to a
division.
Mr. Molloy


MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton):
I do not exactly understand what the
arrangement proposed by the President
of the Local Government Board is. Are
we to understand that any person who
can obtain a certificate-any person who
has a conscientious objection to his chil-
dren being vaccinated, after he has once
been fined, is not to be subjected to any
further prosecution ? I maintain that
you destroy the principle of insisting
upon vaccination when you say that a
person who is able to pay the fine shall
not have his child vaccinated. The hon.
Member for King's County (Mr. Molloy)
supports compulsory vaccination on the
ground that small-pox may be intro-
duced into his own establishment; but
as he happens to have been vaccinated
himself, together with all his family, I
do not see how that circumstance ought
to influence him.
MR. H. SMITH-WRIGHT (Notting-
ham, S.) : As a Representative of a
large Midland town, I wish to say that
the question of vaccination is one which
excited a great deal of feeling at the
time of the last Election. I am, myself,
in favour of vaccination; and I felt that
I could not altogether give way on the
subject in the course of my electioneering
campaign. I believe that vaccination is
essential in order to secure the good of
the country, and I have applied myself
to the task of inquiry. A point raised
by the hon. Member for East Donegal
(Mr. Arthur O'Connor) and the hon.
Member for Northampton (Mr. Brad-
laugh) is why those who object to vacci-
nation should not be allowed to be ex-
empted from it. My reply to that is
that those who are in favour of vaccina-
tion do not claim that vaccination gives
complete security. It is very well known
that persons who have measles are gene-
rally exempt thereafter; but, neverthe-
less, it is possible to have measles even
a second time. It is well known, in the
same way, that there may be a second
attack of small-pox. Therefore, if we
were to prevent any large body of the
people of the country from being vac-
cinated, they would thus constitute a
nucleus for the spread of the disease, to
some extent, at all events, among those
who had been vaccinated. I would ask
the hon. Member for East Donegal to
look back to the state of things that
existed 100 years ago. At that time
there was scarcely a Royal Family in


51 Stpply- Civ~il


{COMMONS}






53 Supply--Civil


Europe in which one or two of its Mem-
bers were not marked with small-pox.
It was quite the exception in those days
for anyone to be free from the marks of
small-pox, and anybody who was not
marked was considered to be an absolute
beauty. Now, we have no wish to recur
to that state of things. This is a very
grave question, and no doubt there is a
great deal of feeling upon it. As the
hon. Member for Northampton (Mr.
Bradlaugh) has said, there is one law
for the rich and another for the poor,
seeing that one is able to pay the fine
without much inconvenience, whereas
the other is put to great straits, and
even compelled to undergo imprison-
ment. I myself feel the force of that
argument, and during the late Election
campaign I advocated the making of
imprisonment universal, and doing away
with fines altogether. The consequence
was that for a month the walls of Not-
tingham were placarded with the an-
nouncement that Mr. Smith-Wright
wishes to imprison the working man for
not being vaccinated." That is all I
got out of my proposal. I feel sure that
the Government will give this matter
their best attention, and will see that
the powers of compulsory vaccination
are exercised with every care and with
every possible consideration for the feel-
ings of those who object to it.
Mn. RITCHIE: A number of sugges-
tions have been thrown out in the course
of the discussion on this Vote to which I
should like to make a reply. One hon.
Member intimated that the Government
have thrown out some hope that certifi-
cates may be granted to persons who
have a conscientious objection to vacci-
nation. I do not know where the hon.
Member obtained his information. The
granting of a certificate was mentioned,
but certainly not by me. As far as the
Government are concerned, Iam obliged
to the hon. Member for the suggestion
he has thrown out; but it is not one that
could be entertained for a single moment
-namely, that a certificate should be
given to any person who broke the law.
The hon. Member himself will see how
impossible it would be for any Govern-
ment to adopt such a proposal. The hon.
Member for King's County (Mr. Molloy),
and also the hon. Member for Leicester-
shire (Mr. Tapling), have suggested that
we should grant an inquiry, and the hon.
Member for King's County added that


we were essentially a Government of
Inquiry, and therefore that it would
come well within our duties. No doubt,
we are a Government of Inquiry, where
inquiry is necessary in order to obtain
information which we do not possess;
but we are not a Government of Inquiry
in order to obtain information which we
do possess. If there is one subject on
which the Government possess accurate
information more than another it is upon
the subject of vaccination; and therefore
Her Majesty's Ministers could not con-
sent to any Committee of Inquiry into the
Vaccination Laws, not because they fear
the result of an inquiry, but because,
while on the one hand they do not be-
lieve the inquiry would have the least
effect in removing the objections of
those who at present resist the law, on
the other hand it might have the
effect of implying doubts on the part
of the Government which the Govern-
ment do not possess in the slightest de-
gree. I may add that only two years
ago an exhaustive inquiry was made
by the Statistical Society, not only into
cases arising in this country, but all over
the world, and they came to the con-
clusion that the benefits of vaccination
were undoubted. One matter has been
mentioned with which I have a consider-
able amount of sympathy. An hen.
Gentleman stated that poor people ob-
jected to the lymph which is supplied.
I wish it to be understood that the
Government have an establishment al-
ready in existence where pure lymph
can be obtained bymedical practitioners,
and it may become a question whether
or not such establishments should not
be extended. If the Government can
do anything in that way to destroy the
prejudice which undoubtedly does exist
in the minds of some people they will be
most happy to consider the question.
MR. SHEEHY (Galway, S.): The
hen. Member for East Donegal (Mr.
Arthur O'Connor) has called attention to
the fact that a grant from the public
funds of 16,500 appears in this Esti-
mate for the encouragement of vaccina-
tion in England. No explanation is
given of it; and I would only ask why,
if this pecuniary reward is necessary
in England for the encouragement of
vaccination, a similar reward is not
granted to Ireland and Scotland ? If it
is necessary that this sum should be
given to English practitioners for suc-


ISEPTEFLBER. 10, 18861


Service Esli=168e. 54







Service Estimates.


cessful vaccination
the spread of disi
necessary that sol
given to prevent th
in Scotland and
Member for East
how the grant has
a-year to 16,500,
been an increase thi
explanation has 1
Government of this
merits of vaccinati(
ture to speak ; but ii
what extraordinary
told that small-pom
by vaccination, anc
should, nevertheless
not deal with other
the same way? V
public to be vaccine
against rabies? I
ful argument in fi
entertain conscienti
vaccination that if
he has only to pros
and his family shal
in order to protect
such circumstances,
who has obtained
object to give full f
tious scruples of an
tains conscientious
tion, and refuses ei
himself or allow hi
the operation ?
Da. TANNER
have listened witl
an extremely inter
great question of v
certain that the res
been most satisfac
astonished, at the
Friend the Membi
(Mr. Arthur O'Co
altogether to vaccine
that anybody who
to inquire into the
nation and the be
it has brought al
material blessings
ferred upon human
struck with the e
has made and the
has attended it. 1I
Friend object to v
ventive of small-p
it on the ground t:
source of the poiso
dren. Now, Sir, :
acquainted with m
Mr. Sheehy


n order to prevent
,ase, is it not also
nething should be
e spread of disease
reland ? The hon.
Donegal has shown
umped from 2,000
and how there has
Year of 900. No
een given by the
increase. As to the
n I would not ven-
strikes me as some-
that we should be
can be prevented
yet that small-pox
i, be so rife. Why
zymotic diseases in
rhy not require the
,ted as a preventive
think it is a power-
.vour of those who
ous scruples against
a man believes in it
ide that he himself
1 undergo the ordeal
t himself. Under
why should the man
security for himself
force to the conscien-
other man who enter-
objections to vaccina-
her to be vaccinated
children to undergo

Cork Co., Mid): I
great attention to
sting debate on this
vaccination, and I am
alt of the debate has
;ory. I was rather
outset, that my hon.
ir for East Donegal
2nor) should object
ition, because I think
will take the trouble
past history of vacci-
leficial results which
lout-the great and
which it has con-
ity-cannot fail to be
aormous progress it
great success which
ot only does my hon.
tccination as a pre-
ax, but he objects to
lat it is a pregnant
ling of healthy chil-
: am perfectly well
ore than one case in


which vaccination certainly did poison
healthy children ; but the difficulties the
people and medical men.have to deal
with in treating cases of vaccination are
two-fold-in the first place, the virus
matter must be pure, and must not be
used in too strong or too concentrated a
form; and,secondly,the child who is to be
operated upon must not suffer from any
debilitating or constitutional malady.
Unfortunately, in dealing with vaccina-
tion, many people have arrived at the
impression that due care is not taken
in selecting the lymph, and that seri-
ous complications arise in consequence.
Now, anyone who has inquired into the
subject must know the serious risk
which a child runs who is vaccinated
from lymph taken directly from the
calf. It is found, however, that when a
healthy child has been successfully vac-
cinated from lymph taken from the calf,
the vaccine matter taken from that child
will successfully vaccinate any other
child in turn, and thus pass on the ad-
vantages of vaccination from child to
child, so that the same beneficial results
may be obtained by a child to whom
the lymph has been transmitted even in
the 10,000th degree, the result being
quite as successful as that which was
produced in the case of the child who
was vaccinated directly from the calf.
I think this fact shows that at the pre-
sent time there must be faults in dealing
with the system of vaccination, and that
it does not require medical skill or
knowledge to deal with vaccination. It
is patent that any child can be success-
fully vaccinated with lymph taken from
another child without being subjected
to that source of danger which is in-
curred by a child directly vaccinated
from the calf. My hen. Friend the
Member for King's County (Mr. Molloy)
says that it would be a very good thing
if a Commission were appointed to in-
quire into the question of vaccination.
I quite agree with him, and fully endorse
what he has said ; but I know perfectly
well that in England-it has not been
so in Ireland-there is in the present
day an outcry against vaccination which
has been taken up in a practical form
by gentlemen who have formed them-
selves into anAnti-Vaccination Society-
a Society which is even represented at
the present day by a journal. The re-
sult of this combined effort against vac-
cination on the part of no inconsider-


STpply- Civrd


{COMMONS}






57 Supply-Civil


able portion of the public has tended to
create discontent, and many persons
have come to the conclusion that in
allowing their children to be vaccinated
they may possibly incur a grave risk. In
cases where children die while suffering
from the effects of vaccination the death
is put down to vaccination and nothing
else; whereas, in nine cases out of ten,
the death occurs from other causes and
complications. If, therefore, a Commit-
tee or a Commission were appointed, as
asked for by my hon. Friend, to inquire
into the present state of the question of
vaccination, I think it would be doing
good service, because vaccination, like
every other branch of medical science,
is not at a standstill. It is progressive,
and vaccination at the present day ought
to make some advance upon the system
which was in vogue some years ago.
But that is not the only point to which
I wish to draw the attention of Her
Majesty's Government. There is an-
other point which I think will justifyme
in urging that the appointment of a
Commission of Inquiry would be ad-
vantageous to the country. It has been
found that the child of a father who
has been vaccinated without being vac-
cinated in turn will not get the small-
pox in the same virulent form as the
child of a non-vaccinated father would
be likely to receive it. That points to the
value of the system of inoculation, al-
though there may have been a break in
it for several generations. Children
even of the third and fourth generation
have received the benefit of the vaccina-
tion undergone by their ancestors, and
are certainly not so prone to be attacked
with the dreadful malady of small-pox
as even children of the second genera-
tion. Therefore itis believed that gradu-
ally as we go on from generation to gene-
ration the receipt for vaccination will
become proportionately less. Instead of
the great outlay which is now incurred in
supplying vaccine lymph and in remu-
nerating the public vaccinators being
progressive and getting larger it ought
to be gradually growing less. There is
no doubt that the system of inoculation
practised at the present day has its
enemies as well as its friends. The
enemies of vaccination have an idea that
the world has gone mad in its efforts to
extirpate disease by resorting to inocu-
lation. Even "pigoculation has been
adopted for the vaccination of children


for the measles. There can be no doubt
that the people of the United Kingdom
have acquired many advantages from
vaccination, and I sincerely trust that
the system will be carried out to the
fullest extent. I hope also that the
right hon. Gentleman the President of
the Local Government Board will con-
sent to the appointment of a Commis-
sion to inquire into the present state of
vaccination, and also to ascertain whe-
ther the expense already incurred in
connection with vaccination may not be
cut down. There is another point to
which I wish also to call the attention
of the right hon. Gentleman. The right
hon. Gentleman, in some detail, entered
into the benefits of vaccination; but in
speaking of those benefits he omitted
to mention that in Ireland we are pro-
vided with no centre of vaccination
whatever. Ireland, be it remembered,
contributes to the Imperial taxation,
and helps to supply a portion of the
amount that is provided in this Estimate
for the remuneration of public vaccina-
tors in England; but, at the same time,
there is no vaccination dep6t in Ireland,
and, what is still worse, we have no
public vaccinators. Of course, there
are in Ireland a great number of dis-
pensary doctors-doctors of dispensary
districts-which I believe is a system
which does not prevail in England.
These doctors are looked upon as public
vaccinators; and it was understood to
have been suggested by the President
of the Local Government Board, the
year before last, that that should be
their position. Unfortunately, that
position has never been recognized, and
the certificates which are given by these
dispensary doctors in Ireland are not
recognized in England as certificates
from a public vaccinator. The conse-
quence is that in order to fulfil the func-
tions of a public vaccinator Irish stu-
dents are required to take out a diploma
from the Royal College of Surgeons in
London, and even then the certificates
which are granted in Ireland are not
looked upon in this country as sufficient,
because they have not been supplied by
a legal public vaccinator. We regard
this in Ireland as a standing injustice;
and I think we may not unreasonably
hope that the right hen. Gentleman the
President of the Local Government
Board will take the circumstances of
the case into consideration, and either


ISEPTEMlBER 10, 18861


,_ervica Estitnates. 58







Service Estimates. 60


have public vaccinators appointed in
Ireland for the purpose of carrying out
there, in the same way as in England,
the duties proscribed by the Statute, or
else provide that the certificate granted
by a dispensary doctor in Ireland shall
have the same effect as that granted by
a public vaccinator in England.
Mn. E. HARRINGTON (Kerry, W.):
I wish to explain the vote that I intend
to give on the Motion of my hon. Friend
the Member for East Donegal (Mr.
Arthur O'Connor). Personally, I have
a firm belief in vaccination; but I can-
not ignore the fact that there are a great
number of persons in this country who
do not believe in it; therefore, I am of
opinion that, as the present Government
is a Government of examination and in-
quiry, they might reasonably allow an
inquiry into this very important ques-
tion. I intend to vote with my hon.
Friend; but simply as a matter of
courtesy in consequence of the refusal
of the Government to grant an inquiry.
The reply which was given by the right
hon. Gentleman the President of the
Local Government Board to the request
which has been made for an inquiry was
that the Government of the day declined
to grant an inquiry into things that are
already known. Nevertheless, in our
opinion, the Government have already
intimated their intention to inquire into
things as perfectly well known and es-
tablished as the fact that the sun shines
at noonday. I may further say that the
Government itself has already been vac-
cinated, and the lymph with which they
have been vaccinated as a protective
against the rush of Radicalism is the
lymph which has been taken from the
" three acres and a cow." I shall vote
with my hon. Friend the Member for
East Donegal, not because I have any
doubt as to the value of vaccination,
but because I protest against the atti-
tude of the Government in refusing to
grant an inquiry.
THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL
GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. LONG)
(Wilts, Devizes): I may remind the
hon. Member that my right hon. Friend
the President of the Local Government
Board promised in the early part of the
evening that arrangements would be
made for an issue of certificates from
Dublin. Attention has been called to
the considerable increase which has
taken place in this grant. I may, how-
Dr. Tanner


ever, point out that during the last four
years the sum asked has been 15,000.
That sum, however, has been invariably
exceeded; and, therefore, it has been
deemed expedient to ask for the sum
which will, in the opinion of the Board,
be actually expended. As a matter
of fact, it is not anticipated that the
annual expenditure this year will in-
volve any increase upon the expendi-
ture of last year; and in asking for a
sum which will cover the real expendi-
ture the Government think they are
introducing a principle which should
deserve the support and encouragement
of the Committee.
Ms. W. A. MACDONALD (Queen's
Co., Ossory): I have been much surprised
and disconcerted at the tone which the
Government have taken in reference to
this matter. There is no doubt what-
ever that at least a considerable section
of intelligent and fairly educated people
in this country have a very strong ob-
jection to vaccination; and it seems to
me no argument to reply to this volume
of public opinion-" We know all about
the matter already, and we will not
sanction any inquiry into it." As long
as this volume of public opinion against
vaccination exists it must necessarily be
met, and the only way to meet it is by
an inquiry, which those who object to
vaccination will regard as thoroughly
impartial. If you converse with people
who are opposed to vaccination you
will find them invariably assert that
evidence which is given in favour of
vaccination is tainted evidence-that
is, evidence given by the medical prac-
titioners who have an interest in the
matter. That is what they say-namely,
that the medical practitioners have an
interest in upholding the present system,
and that that interest depends upon the
very Vote which the Committee is now
asked to sanction. Now, it seems to me
that if a Government inquiry were set
on foot by a Commission or otherwise,
which would really be of an impartial
character, and which would be above
the suspicion of unfairness, it would
have a very considerable effect in calm-
ing the public mind upon this question,
and making the path of future Govern-
ments both clear and easy. And if, as
I think is very likely to be the case, it
should be proved that the present system
is upon the whole right, and that com-
pulsory vaccination is good for the com-


69 supply- civilivi


{COMMONS}







61 sumplj- Civil


munity, we should be able to set at rest
a question which has been disturbing
the peace of the public mind for year
after year, leading to continual discus-
sions in this House, resulting in a great
many people breaking the law, and
placing the Local Government Board in
considerable difficulties as to how they
may best be able to maintain the law.
Under these circumstances, I would
most earnestly press upon the Govern-
ment, from the point of view of settling
this question satisfactorily, that they
should grant such an inquiry as has
been asked for. At the same time, I do
not feel so strongly on this matter as to
be able to vote with my hon. Friend the
Member for East Donegal (Mr. Arthur
O'Connor), and therefore I shall not give
my vote on this question at all. I am
satisfied that his arguments, which I am
sure are advanced in the most conscien-
tious spirit, are abundantly sufficient to
justify an inquiry.
Question put, and negatived.
Original Question again proposed.
MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.): I wish to
call attention to the salaries of two of
the Government Secretaries-the Secre-
tary to the Local Government Board and
the Secretary to the Board of Trade.
The salary of the Parliamentary Secre-
tary to the Local Government Board is,
I see, fixed at 1,500 a-year, whereas if
we turn back to the salary already voted
for the Board of Trade it is fixed at
1,200 a-year. Now, I find that both
of these salaries, until last year, stood at
1,500 a-piece, and that they were then
reduced to 1,200 ; and before we pro-
ceed any further with the Vote I want a
clear explanation from the Government
why they are continuing to pay 1,500
to the Parliamentary Secretary to the
Local Government Board and only
1,200 a-year to the Parliamentary Se-
cretary to the Board of Trade ? I have
never heard any hon. Member contend
that the Local Government Board has
more to do than the Board of Trade. If
in a country like England any compari-
son is to be made, it must be admitted
that the Board of Trade is entitled to
have its officials more highly paid than
those of the Local Government Board.
If I am correctly informed, we have here
evidence of a very unsavoury job. I am
disposed to admit the present Govern-


ment are not responsible for it, and I
have no fault to find with them in re-
gard to it. Least of all am I inclined to
find fault with the present Parliamen-
tary Secretary. But what has occurred,
so far as my information goes, is this.
Some time ago it was arranged that the
salaries of these two officials-the Secre-
taries to the Board of Trade and the
Local Government Board-should be
fixed at 1,200 a-year. But a rather
distinguished Gentleman-now repre-
senting the Bordesley Division of Bir-
mingham (Mr. Jesse Collings)-whose
name was identified with the "three
acres and a cow was appointed to the
position of Parliamentary Secretary to
the Local Government Board, and he
seems to have discovered that 1,200
a-year was not sufficient for the bril-
liancy of the genius and services he
brought to bear in support of Her Ma-
jesty's Government; but the President
of the Local Government Board at that
time was a Cabinet Minister, and a per-
sonal friend of the hon. Member, and
it is said that through the influence of
that Cabinet Minister the original ar-
rangement was broken through, and that
the salary of 1,500 a-year was continued
to the Secretary to the Local Govern-
ment Board. Well, the salary of the
Secretary to the Board of Trade was re-
duced in strict accordance with that
understanding to 1,200 a-year. There
can be no doubt that the Secretary to
the Board of Trade was an equally able
and accomplished official; but he does
not seem to have possessed the influence
of the Secretary to the Local Govern-
ment Board, and therefore his salary re-
mained at 1,200 a-year. Now, Sir, I
regard this transaction as most discredit-
able, and I think that we have a right
to ask that the salary of the Secretary to
the Local Government Board shall be
reduced, so that the remuneration paid
to these two officers shall be equal. I
think it is highly disrespectful that be-
cause the hon. Member for the Bordesley
Division of Birmingham (Mr. Jesse Col-
lings) happened to have a personal
friend in the Cabinet his salary should
have been raised by 300 a-year, whereas
that of the Secretary to the Board of
Trade should have been left at 1,200.
Unless I. get a satisfactory explana-
tion of this matter I shall certainly
move to reduce the Vote by the sum of
300.


ISZPPIrErBER. 10, 188611


Sercrvice Eystimates. 62







63 Supply-Civil


Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding 175,656, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum
necessary to defray the Charge which will
come in course of payment during the year
ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for
the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Go-
vernment Board, including various Grants in
Aid of Local Taxation." -(Mr. Dillon.)
THE C CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-
QUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL)
(Paddington, S.): I should have hoped
that the hon. Member who has brought
forward this question would have satis-
fied himself with facts, and not have
drawn, as he has done, upon his imagi-
nation. In this particular case he is al-
together in error, and the explanation I
have to give in regard to it is this.
When the Estimate was originally framed
by the late Government the salary for the
Parliamentary Secretaryship to theLocal
Government Board was placed at 1,500
a-year, an amount at which it had stood
for a long time-I believe ever since the
establishment of the Board of 1854.
That being so, the actual figures in the
Estimate have been altered. But these
are the facts of the case. When the late
Prime Minister appointed the late Se-
cretary to the Board of Trade and the
late Secretary to the Local Government
Board he made it a condition that the
salaries for both of those Offices should
be reduced to 1,200 a-year. The hon.
Member for the Bordesley Division of
Birmingham (Mr. Jesse Collings) was
appointed Secretary to the Local Govern-
ment Board before the arrangement to re-
duce the salaries was made. This is why
the salaryof 1,500 waspaid to him; but
it will not be paid to the present Secre-
tary to the Local Government Board,
because the arrangement made by the
late Prime Minister is still in force, al-
though I must confess that I am unable
to see the advantage which the late
Prime Minister aimed at in making
these rather small reductions in official
salaries. I am not prepared to depart
from the decision which the right hon.
Gentleman came to; and, therefore, the
salaries of these two Parliamentary Se-
cretaries have been reduced to 1,200
a-year. They still remain at 1,200
a-year, and the balance of 300 in each
case will be paid into the Exchequer.
Of course, the hon. Gentleman will under-
stand that I have absolutely'no know-
ledge whatever of anything which has
taken place between the late President
Mr. Dillon


of the Local Government Board, the right
hon.Member for West Birmingham (Mr.
Chamberlain), and the hon. Member for
the Bordesley Division of Birmingham
(Mr. Jesse Collings) as to the salary of
the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local
Government Board, nor had I thought
it any matter of concern to the House.
All I have to say is that the arrange-
ment which the late Government made
in regard to these two salaries will be
carried out, and that the Secretary to
the Local Government Board, like the
Secretary to the Board of Trade, will
only receive a salary of 1,200 a-year.
It is not necessary, therefore, to submit
the Amendment which the hon. Member
for Mayo has proposed.
MR. BORLASE (Cornwall, St. Aus-
tell): What the noble Lord has stated
is entirely correct. When the late Prime
Minister asked me to become the Secre-
tary to the Local Government Board he
mentioned to me that the salary would
be at the rate of 1,200 a-year. I had
previously seen statements in the news-
papers to the effect that the salaries for
the Parliamentary Secretaryships to the
Board of Trade and the Local Govern-
ment Board were to be reduced from
1,500 to 1,200 a-year. Under those
conditions, and without making any
comment upon them, because I did not
think it my place to do so, I accepted
the Office. I then found, on going to
the Local Government Board, that my
Predecessor had been receiving remune-
ration at the rate of 1,500 a-year. -Per-
haps I may say that a curious anomaly
occurred with regard to myself which I
should like particularly to point out to
the noble Lord, and that is that I re-
ceived my salary at the rate of 1,500
a-year up to the last payment, which I
only received the other day. Upon that
occasion the old rate of payment had
been reduced all along the line; and
therefore, although I had been receiving
a salary at the rate of 1,500 a-year,
when it came to the last part of the year
during which I had held Office I found
that I was only entitled to be paid at
the rate of 1,200 a-year. Now, I can-
not exaggerate-certainly not in my own
estimation -the value of the Offices
which I and my Colleague in the repre-
sentation of Cornwall (Mr. C. T. D.
Acland) filled. Although the salaries
had been reduced, I must say that I
trust in future, when the great import-


{ COMMONS }


Service Estimates. 64







Service Estimates. 66


ance of the Board of Trade is fully con-
sidered, and the great, if not equal, im-
portance of the Local Government Board
is also borne in mind, this House will, I
venture to hope, arrive at the opinion
that these two Parliamentary Secretary-
ships are worthy of the higher salaries
which were originally paid to them.
MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton):
My hon. Friend need not flatter himself
that we are going to raise these salaries.
I think my hon. Friend the Member for
East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) has stated the
facts of the case with perfect accuracy.
His statement was that when Mr. Jesse
Collings was appointed Secretary to the
Local Government Board he had 1,500
a-year, and that then Mr. Chamberlain-
[ cries of" Order! "] I think I am in
Order. My hon. Friend the Member for
East Mayo complains that the late Prime
Minister when he came into Office ar-
ranged that the salaries for the Parlia-
mentary Secretary to the Local Govern-
ment Board and the Secretary to the
Board of Trade should be 1,200 in-
stead of 1,500 a-year. Mr. Chamber-
lain-[ Cries of "Order! "] Mr; Court-
ney, I appeal to you as to whether I am
not in Order?
THE CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Mem-
ber is speaking of Members of the last
Parliament he is in Order. He would
not be in Order in naming Members of
the present Parliament.
Ms. LABOUCHERE : Well, Sir, the
right hon. Gentleman the Member for
West Birmingham was very powerful in
debate, and he insisted that his follower,
the present Member for Bordesley (Mr.
Jesse Collings), should have 1,500 per
annum, whereas the Secretary to the
Board of Trade only received 1,200.
When we lost Mr. Jesse Collings, my
hon. Friend who took his place was not
under such powerful protection, and al-
though he thought he was to receive
1,500 a-year yet he only received
1,200. The statement of the hon. Mem-
ber for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) is en-
tirely confirmed as to the fact that the
hon. Member for Bordesloy received
300 a-year more than the hon. Mem-
ber for West Cornwall (Mr. Borlase)
when he succeeded him.
MR. DILLON: I listened with the
utmost attention to the noble Lord the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I
could not gather from his statement any
sufficient reason for the difference in the
VOL. CCCIX. [THIRD SERIES.]


Estimates; nor did the noble Lord make
any attempt to meet my statement that
Mr. Jesse Collings was in receipt of
1,500 a year. But when his successor
(Mr. Borlase) came into Office the re-
duction of the salary to 1,200 was
allowed to come into force, and the
whole loss fell upon that hon. Gentle-
man. Now, I consider that that was a
most discreditable and unfair thing.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member
for West Birmingham (Mr. J. Chamber-
lain) should not use his influence to in-
crease the salaries of his particular
clique in this House, and I shall cer-
tainly go to a division on this question.
The noble Lord stated with regard to
the present Estimate that this sum of
1,500 a year would not be used, and
that a repayment would be made into
the Exchequer ; but he did not give any
satisfactory explanation of the reason
why the Estimate is for 1,500 for the
Local Government Board, and 1,200
for the Board of Trade. Therefore, I
shall move a reduction of the Vote by
the sum of 300, not because I have
any feeling at all as to those salaries
being too large, and still less because I
have any objection to the present occu-
pant of the Office, but because it is the
only way in which I can raise the ques-
tion as to the action of the right hon.
Gentleman the Member for West Bir-
mingham.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding 175,656, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum
necessary to defray the Charge which will come
in course of payment during the year ending on
the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries
and Expenses of the Local Government Board,
including various Grants in Aid of Local Taxa-
tion."- (Mr. Dillon.)
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): I do not see why the
Chancellor of the Exchequer should not
accede to the Motion for the reduction
of the Vote, because I understood him
to say that the excess would be repaid
to the Treasury. I think that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer might justly
accept the reduction of the Vote. But
there is another point which I wish to
draw attention to-n amely, that the right
hon. Gentleman the Member for West
Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) and the
hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordes-
ley (Mr. Jesse Collings) are not in the
House at the present time, and I think
D


65 Supyly--Civil


ISETEMBEIR 10, 18861






Service Estimates. 68


it was unfair on the part of the hon.
Member. for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) to
impute to them what he did in their ab-
sence. We were told by the successor
of the hon. Member for Bordesley, that
he expected to get 1,500 a-year, and
that when he came into Office he found
that the salary had been reduced. Pro-
bably it would have been the same in the
case of the hon. Member for Bordesley.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-
QUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL)
(Paddington, S.): I do not exactly under-
stand the course which the hon.
Member for East Mayo wishes us to
take. The hon. Member says he
wishes to go to a division in order
to censure the right hon. Gentleman
the Member for West Birmingham
(Mr. J. Chamberlain). Does the hon.
Member wish us to go to a division in
order to censure the right hon. Gentle-
man the Member for West Birmingham,
or the hon. Member for Bordesley (Mr.
Jesse Collings)? I do not think that
the Committee by going to a division
would convey the smallest censure on
either of those Gentlemen; and, again,
the conduct of the right hon. Member
for West Birmingham and of the hon.
Member for Bordesley is not in any way
before the Committee. I have stated
to the Committee that the present Se-
cretary to the Board of Trade only re-
ceives 1,200 a year, and it has been so
ever since the hon. Member was ap-
pointed. I own that, as the present
Secretary to the Board of Trade is
being paid at the rate of 1,200 a-year, I
fail to see that there was any useful
purpose served by asking for an addi-
tional sum of 300, and therefore I am
perfectly ready to accept the reduction.
I wish, however, to guard myself against
any responsibility for that reduction,
which, as has been pointed out, was made
by the late Prime Minister. I therefore
express a hope that the hon. Member
for East Mayo will not put the Com-
mittee to the trouble of dividing on this
Vote.
MR. DILLON: I see the force of the
noble Lord's objection, and I shall not
put the Committee to the trouble of
dividing. With regard to a censure on
the right hon. Gentlemen the Member
for West Birmingham (Mr. J. Chamber-
lain), I stated that it was only by mov-
ing a reduction of the Vote that I could
raise the question at all. I am bound
Sir George Campbell


to say, after all that the noble Lord has
said, and after what has been said on
this side of the Committee, it is clear
that the hon. Member for the Bordesley
Division of Birmingham (Mr. Jesse
Collings) drew 1,500 a-year, and that
when another hon. Member took his
place a reduction was made. I think
this a most disreputable transaction. I
believe the intention was to continue the
1,500 a-year to Mr. Jesse Collings as
long as he had the place, and to reduce
it when another hon. Member came into
Office. I have no hesitation in saying
that this was a disgraceful transaction.
MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool,
Scotland): I believe the Chancellor of
the Exchequer is responsible for the
finances of the country. Now the state-
ment of the hon. Member for East
Mayo (Mr. Dillon) is that the hon.
Member for the Bordesley Division of
Birmingham (Mr. Jesse Collings) drew
a salary at the rate of 1,500 a-year.
Are we to understand that the noble
Lord assents to that statement ? [Lord
RANDOLPH CHuRCHILL: Yes.] Then
I have nothing further to say.
MR. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green,
S.W.): I desire to draw attention to
the inadequate and improper perform-
ance of a duty which is imposed upon
the Local Government Board. It is an
important question involving very closely
the interests of my constituents, but
even in a greater degree the interests of
the right hon. Gentleman whom I see
opposite, and generally the interests of
hundreds and thousands of the poor
ratepayers of this Metropolis. Now,
Mr. Courtney, the facts are simply these.
We have in London what is called the
Metropolitan Common Poor Fund. This
is a Fund to which each Union contri-
butes according to its rateable value,
and out of this Fund certain charges in
connection with poor relief are defrayed.
LoDI RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
I rise to Order. Am I right, Mr. Court-
ney, in the opinion that the hon. Member
is out of Order? The hon. Member is
referring to a subject that has nothing
to do with the Amendment of the hon.
Member for East Mayo, which has not
yet been disposed of by the Com-
mittee.
THE CHAIRMAN: The Amendment
is to reduce the Vote by a certain sum.
There is nothing in the Amendment to
identify any particular item, and, there-


(COMMONS}


67sppycii






{SEPTEMBER 10, 1886} Service Estimates.


fore, the question put covers the point
which is being raised by the hon.
Member.
MR. PICKERSGILL: The noble
Lord, perhaps, has no great acquaint-
ance with the Unions. I was aware
that unless I raised this question now
I should be shut out from raising a
question of great importance to the rate-
payers. In districts where the aggregate
rating value is large and the poor are few
a larger contribution is made to the Com-
mon Poor Fund than is drawn from it, the
reverse being the case where the rating
value is small and the poor are nume-
rous. One of the charges on this Me-
tropolitan Common Poor Fund is the
cost of the rations of certain officers.
The Local Government Board and the
right hon. Gentleman the President
(Mr. Ritchie) are concerned in this-
that the Legislature, in making the cost
of these rations a common charge, em-
powered the Local Government Board
to fix the scale for these rations. My
first allegation is that this scale is in-
adequate. Some hon. Members may
have noticed that I have recently put a
series of Questions on this subject to
the right hon. Gentleman the President
of the Local Government Board. I re-
gret to say the right hon. Gentleman
has not been very communicative; but
he did inform me of the particulars of
the scale fixed for the Board. It appears
that the officers are divided into two
classes, called principal and subordi-
nate. As regards the rations of the
principal officers, an allowance of 12s.
per week per head is made by the
Board; and as regards subordinate offi-
cers, an allowance of 7s. per week per
head is made. The other day I asked
the right hon. Gentleman what was the
average cost of these rations in the Me-
tropolitan Unions. The right hon. Gen-
tleman was either unable or unwilling
to supply me with this information, and,
under those circumstances, I took the
only course which remained open to me
-that is to say, I set about obtaining
all the information I wanted for myself,
and in a few hours I obtained from Mr.
Howard, the Clerk to the Bethnal Green
Guardians, the information I was asking
from the right hon. Gentleman. Now,
in Bethnal Green I find that the actual
cost of these rations, taking principal
and subordinate officers together, is
12s. 8d. per head per week. The amount


allowed by the Local Government Board
works out at 7s. 51d. per head per
week. The Local Government Board,
in this case at any rate, allows very
little more than half the actual cost.
I communicated -these facts to the
right hon. Gentleman as represent-
ing the average cost throughout Lon-
don, and the right hon. Gentleman
replied that he had no reason to doubt
the general accuracy of my statement.
So that, interpreting that as official an-
swers must generally be interpreted, I
think it may be taken that the inade-
quacy of this scale is established. But
I may mention to the Committee, how-
ever, that I have been also in communi-
cation with the Clerk to the Shoreditch
Guardians, and, through the courtesy of
that gentleman, I find that in Shore-
ditch the actual cost is 13s. 9d. per head,
whereas the allowance works out at
7s. 5d., so that it appears that the dif-
ference between the actual cost and the
allowance for rations is very nearly as
great as the official grant. There is a
further point which I wish to mention
to the Committee. Mr. Clay, of Shore-
ditch, who is a gentleman of great
experience in these matters, informs
me that, although the cost of rations
for the principal officers is materially
greater than the cost of rations for
the subordinate officers, still it is not
nearly so great as the difference fixed
by the Local Government Board; so
that it is clear that we have the evi-
dence of an expert to show that the
scale of the Local Government Board is
wrongly constructed. But in order to
establish and bring home this charge
against the Local Government Board, it
is not sufficient for me to show merely
that the scale is inadequate; I must also
show that it is contrary to the intention
of the Legislature.
COLONEL HUGHES (Woolwich): I
rise to Order. I ask whether the sub-
ject to which the hon. -Member is draw-
ing attention can be discussed upon the
Vote before the Committee, having re-
gard to the fact that the expenditure to
which the hon. Member is alluding is
entirely defrayed by an expenditure from
the rates ?
THE CHAIRMAN: I understand the
hon. Member to be discussing the ques-
tion of payment out of the rates by the
direction of the Local Government Board,
who have framed a scale of allowances.


69 $up. ly- civil







Service Estimates. 72


If that is so, the hon. Member will be in
Order in continuing his observations.
COLONEL HUGHES: The Local Go-
vernment Board controlthe action of the
Guardians in many cases; but there is
no single item of the Vote before the
Committee which can include the ques-
tion which the hon. Member is now dis-
cussing.
THE CHAIRMAN: That is not the
point.
MR. PICKERSGILL: I am not at
all surprised at the interruptions by
which the hon. and gallant Member
opposite endeavours to prevent my ex-
posing this matter. When I was inter-
rupted by the hon. and gallant Member
I was at this point-that it was not
sufficient for me to show that this scale
was inadequate, but that I must also
show that it is contrary to the intentions
of the Legislature. Now, I must refer
to the Metropolitan Poor Act, 1867.
Under that Act the salaries of the offi-
cers are made common charges, the
rations of the officers are excluded. But
by the 2nd section of the Metropolitan
Poor Act of 1870 it is provided as fol-
lows :-namely,
That the item of salaries of the officers re-
ferred to in the ninth section of the Metro.
politan Poor Act of 1867 shall include the cost of
the rations of the officers according to a scale to
be fixed by the Local Government Board."
Well, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman
opposite argues that it is obvious that
the cost of the rations is not on all-fours
with the salary. Now, I submit that so
far from this proposition being obvious,
on the contrary I maintain that the cost
of the rations is precisely on the same
footing with the question of salary. The
right hon. Gentleman will, no doubt,
tell the Committee that the cost of the
rations to be allowed to the Guardians
is to be determined according to the
scale fixed by the Local Government
Board; but my answer to that is that
the salaries-the amount of the salary
repayable to the Guardians-is a matter
to be fixed by the Local Govern-
ment Board. In both cases a discre-
tion is given to the Local Government
Board, but it is a discretion which is to
be judicially exercised in bothcases alike.
I admit thatthe Local Government Board
is not bound to allow the actual cost, but
the reasonable cost-not a cost that they
might find or take here or there, but
the cost taken upon average. Well, I
The Chairman


believe that the right hen. Gentleman
will tell us that it would not be in the
interest of economy that the Local Go-
vernment Board should allow any amount
which might be demanded in respect of
these rations. [" Hear, hear! "J The
right hon. Gentleman says Hear, hear!"
but I submit that a statement of that
kind is mere idle beating of the air. No
one has ever maintained, certainly.least
of all have I, that the Local Government
Board would be justified in allowing a
Board of Guardians to maintain its offi-
cers on turtle soup and bottles of old
port; but what I maintain is that the
Local Government Board are required
by this Act to provide a reasonable scale
-a scale such that a Union exercising
fair economy would not exceed, and
might charge against the Local Govern-
ment Board. I say that they have fixed a
scale to which the Metropolitan Unions
cannot possibly bring down the cost of
their officers' rations. It will be perfectly
clear that if the scale is inadequate when
it ought to be adequate, it is very unfair
upon the poorer districts of London; and
that it is unfair to the poorer districts of
London I may show by stating a single
fact-namely, the cost of the rations in
Bethnal Green Union alone is consider-
ably more than 1,000 in excess of the
sum which the Local Government Board
allows. Well, Sir, I submit that the
revision of this scale is most urgently
required. I do not know that the right
hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ritchie), who re-
presents an East End constituency, would
be disposed to deny that it is not very
astonishing that I should wish, if possi-
ble, to relieve the burdens of the poor
ratepayers of those places. It is to me
a most painful sight-acquainted as I
am with painful sights-to see thou-
sands of respectable ratepayers struggling
quarter after quarter to keep their
heads above water, and to see them
from time to time sink into pauperism
under the crushing weight of the enor-
mous local imposts which they have to
bear. The only question, then, is this,
What was the intention of the Legisla-
ture in passing this Act ? In addressing
the Committee I can use arguments
which would not be permissible if I
were pleading before a Court of Law.
I will refer to the statement made by
Mr. Goschen at the time he was Presi-
dent of the Local Government Board.
Mr. Goschen, who was the author of the


ICOM~MONSI


71 sp Py ii







[SEPTEMBER 10, 1886} Service Estimates.


Act of 1870, declared to the House that
he introduced a Bill, the object of which
was to equalize the rates throughout
London as far as possible. When I find
that in the parish of St. George's-in-the-
East, which the right hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Richie) represents, the poor rate is
3s. 5d. in the pound, whereas in the parish
of--
TnE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Mem-
ber is now travelling beyond the definite
question, which is the discretion of the
Local Government Board in fixing this
scale.
MR. PICKERSGILL: I submit, of
course, to your ruling, Mr. Courtney, and
point out that if this scale is not revised
it will have the effect of making the
poor of this Metropolis worse off than
they are at present. In conclusion, I
simply ask that the President of the
Local Government Board should do that
which I conceive to be his duty, and to
act on the principle of the distinguished
man who, when he was President of the
Board, was responsible for the Act of
1870.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL
GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. RITIIIE)
(Tower Hamlets, St. George's): I also
would appeal to the hon. Gentleman to
consider what, perhaps, may be news to
him-namely, that it was the distin-
guished man he refers to who fixed the
scale of rations to which he objects. The
argument of the hon. Gentleman was
that the Bill of Mr. Goschen had for
its object the equalization of the rates
throughout London. I can hardly
understand that the hon. Member was
aware that Mr. Goschen fixed the scale;
but that is the case, and, therefore, if
his object was to give to the parishes
the total amount of the rations of offi-
cers, and if these are not paid for by
the scale fixed, it is Mr. Goschen who is
responsible. I have here Mr. Goschen's
circular. [Mr. PICKERSGILL: I do not
dispute that.] Then if I have not stated
the argument of the hon. Member cor-
rectly I do not know what his argument
is. Well, Sir, Mr. Goschen also said in
the same debate it was a portion of the
plan that a margin should be left in
order to secure economy. Well, now, of
course, the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pickers-
gill) said, and said very truly, that I, as
the Representative of very poor parishes,
ought to have some sympathy for the
course he was pursuing. I have been


connected with the East End of London
perhaps twice as many years as the hon.
Gentleman has been months, and, there-
fore, the Committee may well imagine
that I am deeply interested in the con-
dition of affairs in the district to which
the hon. Gentleman has referred, and
that nothing would be wanting on my
part, which I thought I ought properly
and justly to do, to mitigate the con-
ditions under which the unfortunate poor
lived in the East End of London. But,
Sir, we must bear in mind this, that in
dealing with questions of this character
a scale ought to be fixed which would
secure economy in the administration of
ratesbyLocal Bodies. What Mr. Goschen
did at the time he fixed that scale was
to inquire throughout the Unions in the
Metropolis what was the minimum it
would be proper to fix the scale at. I
am not now contending that that scale
is sufficient; I am only showing how the
scale was fixed. I think it can hardly
be contended that the case of rations has
arisen between 1870 and the present
time. However, what I want to noint
out to the hon. Gentleman and the Com-
mittee is that before the hon. Gentleman
called attention to this subject at all I
had made it the subject of investigation;
and not only have I made this the sub-
ject of investigation, but Ihave for some
time been investigating the whole inci-
dence of the Metropolitan Common Poor
Law Fund. The hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Pickersgill) thinks we ought at once to
proceed to fix a higher scale without
making any inquiry. I myself do not
think that would be a judicious course
to adopt. I am making inquiries; I have
previously informed the hon. Gentleman
that I am making inquiries. When I
have satisfied myself as to the exact con-
dition of affairs I shall not hesitate to
take such action as my inquiries may
show to be right; but it is perfectly im-
possible for me to say now, without
having made any inquiry at all, I can
recommend to the House that the scale
should be raised. The hon. Gentleman
has given figures as to the cost of rations
in Bethnal Green and Shoreditch. I
have no doubt that the figures he has
quoted are substantially correct; but
it does not at all follow it would be
right to take these figures as the basis
everywhere. The average must be taken,
and the very minimum of the average
must be taken, in order to promote eco-


73 XzUiP ll- civil







Service Estimates. 76


nomy in the various Unions. However,
I do not propose to enter into the ques-
tion the hon. Gentleman has raised. I
have only to state again what I have
stated in answer to Questions, that the
whole matter is being investigated by
me, and that my course of action will be
dictated by the result of my inquiries.
Mn. BUXTON (Tower Hamlets, Pop-
lar) : I think the Committee generally
will have heard with pleasure that the
right hon. Gentleman has already insti-
tuted an inquiry into the whole question
which has been raised by my hon. Friend
(Mr. Pickersgill). Knowing as we do
the sympathy the right hon. Gentleman
has always shown on behalf of the rate-
payers of London, and knowing also
the immense knowledge he has acquired
as a Member of an East End con-
stituency for so long a time, we may
safely leave the inquiry into this import-
ant matter in his hands. I am sure
that the Committee and all those inte-
rested in this question will feel that'great
good will come from the inquiry the
right hon. Gentleman is now prosecuting.
We hope that in this particular question
which my hon. Friend has raised greater
equality and greater fairness may be
shown between the different districts in
London with reference to this Metro-
politan Fund. The right hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Ritchie) stated that Mr.
Goschen had fixed the scale, and that,
therefore, the scale must have been a
fair one; but I think it is evident from
what Mr. Goschen said in the debate
which took place at the time of the fixing
of the scale, and from the wording of
the two Acts themselves, that there was
no intention of fixing that scale, or any
of the grants from the Common Poor
Fund, on the principle of the laws of the
Medes and Persians-on the principle
that there was never to be any alteration.
Mr. Goschen fixed the scale as fairly as
possible; I acknowledge he fixed it as
fairly as possible, according to the know-
ledge he then had, for the matter was
then an entirely new experiment. Fresh
information and light has been thrown
on the question from time to time, and,
therefore, I do not think we need take
Mr. Goschen's proposals or Mr. Goschen's
references to the matter as absolutely
final and precluding us from making
alterations. I trust the whole question
of the Common Poor Fund may receive
adequate consideration in the next Ses-
Mr. Ritchie


sion. I think the answer the right hon.
Gentleman has given is very satisfac-
tory under the present circumstances ;
and I hope my hon. Friend (Mr. Pickers-
gill), who has most carefully considered
this question, will be satisfied with the
.answer he has received.
MB. ISAACS (Newington, Walworth)
Mr. Courtney, I am particularly anxious
to urge on the attention of the right
hon. Gentleman the President of the
Local Government Board (Mr. Ritchie)
that it is the poorer parishes or Unions
in the Metropolis that are most interested
in this question. The hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Pickersgill) has pointed out that,
in Bethnal Green Union, 1,000 per
annum is at stake in this matter-that is
to say, that sum represents the differ-
ence between the allowance and the
actual cost of the rations. Much the
same sort of thing prevails in most
Unions, and I, as the Representative of
one of the poorest Divisions of this Me-
tropolis, respectfully urge upon the Pre-
sident of the Local Government Board
the desirability of setting 'this matter
right at the earliest possible moment.
I am sure I have only to make this ap-
peal to him to insure that there shall
be no unnecessary delay. What has
occurred to-night only points to the ne-
cessity of considering that far larger
question-namely, the equalization of
the poor rates throughout the whole of
the Metropolis.
MR. F. S. POWELL (Wigan): I
must apologize for endeavouring to en-
gage the attention of the Committee for
a few moments, while I refer to -a sub-
ject in which, as Chairman of the Canal
Association, and as Chairman for many
years of the Sanitary Department of the
Paddington Vestry, I have taken con-
siderable interest. The question which
I wish to ask my right hon. Friend (Mr.
Ritchie) is, What is the nature of the
duties which are imposed upon the In-
spector under the Canal Boats Act,1884 ?
We have already had a discussion in
this House with reference to the addition
to the staff of Inspectors. I do not wish
to enter now upon that large question,
but hope I may be allowed to say at
least this, that when there is an addition
made to the staff of Inspectors we ought
to receive some guarantee that his duties
are fairly discharged by him, and that
they are clearly defined by the Depart-
ment under which he serves. I should


{COMMONS}


75 upy cii







{SEPTEMBER 10, 1886} .Service Estimates.


like to know how the duties of the In.
spector under the Canal Boats Act, 1884,
have been arranged; in what manner
he has been asked to serve the Depart-
ment, whether he visits different locali-
ties along the line of canals, or whether
he is resident and receives reports
which may be sent to him ? I had the
honour of giving evidence before the
Committee which dealt with this subject,
and I confess I felt some doubt at the
time as to whether the Inspector, having
command over so large a mileage as
the canals of this country cover, could
devote sufficient attention to any par-
ticular point as to render his services so
effectual as could be desired. I ven-
tured also, before that Committee, to sug-
gest that there would be one difficulty
in connection with this Inspectorship,
and that was that an officer, whose duty
appeared to me to cause him to travel
very much, must incur large expenditure
in travelling; but I confess, although I
did at that time feel some apprehension
on the subject, I was not quite prepared
to discover, at so early a stage as the
present, that the travelling expenses
would amount to 270, an increase, as
compared with last year, of 80. I am
not at all raising any difficulty as to the
change of law. I am not making any
objection, and I hope I am not erring
in asking the Department to give the
Committee some explanation on the
point I have mentioned. I believe that
some inspection is necessary; I am not
hostile to reform, I am only asking the
Department in charge to give us some
explanation. The entire cost of the In-
spector is shown in the Estimate of the
present year as no less than 800. That
is a serious charge, and one which I
hope I may be excused in drawing the
attention of the Committee and the De-
partment to. At the same time, I dis-
tinctly say that I am not averse to the
Inspectorship; I am only asking the Go-
vernment to give us some explanation
as to the working of the new experiment.
There is another point to which I desire
to refer, but it has relation more to the
form of the account than to the account
itself. On the 137th page of the Esti-
mate, under the heading Grants in
Aid," there is a charge of 74,000 for
" Medical Officers of Health and In-
spectors of Nuisances." It certainly
does appear to me to be very incon-
venient that officers, whose duties and


whose positions in the world are so far
remote as those of Medical Officers of
Health and Inspectors of Nuisances,
should be grouped together in the same
sum total in these Estimates. Ihopethat
on future occasions we may know ac-
tually the cost of the Medical Officers
under the Public Health Act, and also
the exact cost of the Inspectors of Nui-
sances, and I hope also that we shall be
informed in this case, as we are in some
others, of the number of those officers.
I do not grudge the growth of this item;
on the contrary, I welcome it; I believe
its growth is an indication of a more
healthy condition of public feeling on
these subjects, but, at the same time, I do
hope that in the Estimates presented to
the House in future years we shall be
informed how many Medical Officers
there are, and also how many Inspectors
of Nuisances. I trust, too, that in the
future the number of these officers will
not be less than it is now, but that, on
the contrary, the number of both class
of officers will be increased. I shall
hail with pleasure rather than with pain
any increase of the Vote under this
heading. I am very reluctant to intrude
upon the attention of the Committee;
but I trust that, as I have devoted con-
siderable attention to the points I have
raised, I may be pardoned in asking
these questions.
THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL
GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. LoNo)
(Wilts, Devizes): Perhaps I may answer
the questions which my hon. Friend
(Mr. Powell) has asked. So far as the
Department is concerned we are very
happy to have the opportunity of an-
swering any questions hon. Gentlemen
may put in connection with the Inspector-
ship of Canals. As regards his duties,
the Inspector is directed generally to
inspect the condition of boats, and do
his utmost to improve what was unques-
tionably a bad condition of things. It
is with great pleasure I can inform my
hon. Friend that the Inspector has car-
ried out his work very satisfactorily,
The Sanitary Authorities in the different
districts through which canals pass have
become much more alive to the duty
of superintending the condition of
canal boats; and I may perhaps point
out that in connection with this work
the Inspector must of necessity be very
careful he does not unnecessarily inter-
fere with the passage of the boats. Of


77 Sup?-ii






Service Estimates. 80


course, if a boat were stopped several
times on one journey, it would cause
considerable dissatisfaction. On the
whole the work seems to have been
satisfactorily done; not only have the
Sanitary Authorities become more alive
to their duties, but the boats have been
greatly improved. The condition of the
inmates has been materially improved ;
there has not been so much herding to-
gether as before, and the condition of
the young women especially has been
greatly changed for the better; many of
them, in fact, have been induced to
abandon their wandering life and enter
domestic service, and so improve their
condition. I may also tell my hon.
Friend that, notwithstanding the fact
that the bargemen have the reputation
for using rather strong language at
times, our experience, through our In-
spectors, goes to show that in hardly a
single instance has there been the
slightest attempt to resent the Inspec-
tor's interference; on the contrary, the
bargemen seem to be very much grati-
fied with the efforts of the Inspector to
improve their condition. In the opi-
nion of the Department the amount put
down for travelling expenses is not ex-
cessive; but I can assure my hon.
Friend that the point will receive the
attention of my right hon. Friend (Mr.
Ritchie). As to the grouping together
of some of the charges in the Estimate,
I think my hon. Friend (Mr. Powell)
will find that the officers to whom he
referred do not object to the grouping,
so far as they are concerned, so long as
they receive the money their services
entitle them to. But even if they did
object, it does not rest with us to sepa-
rate the charges, but with another De-
partment of the State.
MR. F. S. POWELL: I am anxious
to know how many medical officers there
are receiving assistance in this manner?
It is really a most important point of
sanitary administration; and I do hope
that on future occasions the charges will
be shown separately, and that we shall
know exactly the number of Medical
Officers and the number of Inspectors of
Nuisances.
Mn. LONG : If my hon. Friend will
let me know exactly what his wishes
are, I will take care that an endeavour
is made to meet them.
Mn. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.):
There is a note at the foot of page 182
Hr. Long


which seems to require some explana-
tion. I find there are several officers em-
ployed by the Local Government Board
who receive double salaries-who hold
double offices and receive double salaries.
I do not quite understand such a system
of carrying on the Public Service. The
note to which I refer is as follows:-
"Another Inspector received in addition to
his salary, under sub-head A, 829 Os. 8d. from
the Vote for the Household of the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland as Private Secretary, for him-
self and clerks."
I do not understand how a Local Go-
vernment Board Inspector in England,
unless he possesses the qualities of Sir
Boyle Roach's bird, can be Private
Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
land at the same time. No doubt, if all
the Noblemen who have filled the Office
were like the present holder of the Office
and stayed away from his post it would
be easy to understand. But the last
three holders of the Office of Lord Lieu-
tenant were always at their post; they
lived in Ireland, not like the Marquess
of Londonderry, in Seaham. I want
some explanation as to how it comes to
pass that a Local Government Board In-
spector in England can also be at the
same time Private Secretary to the
Lord Lieutenant in Dublin, and receive
double salary for this practically impos-
sible work?
THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL
GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. RITCHIE)
(Tower Hamlets, St. George's): The
point which the hon. Gentleman has
raised is one that is new to me. I will
make inquiries into the matter, and if
he thinks it necessary to put another
question concerning it on Report, pos-
sibly I may be in a position to afford
him the information he desires.
MR. CLANCY: I will certainly raise
the question on Report; and I will also
raise on Report, if the right hon. Gen-
tleman is not able to give me an answer
now, the whole question of these allow-
ances. I see, by another note at the
foot, that one of the Inspectors receives
an addition to his salary. 100, I see, is
put down as a temporary allowance. I
do not understand how an allowance can
be temporary when it is every year
granted to a man.
Mn. RITCHIE: I am now in a posi-
tion to afford the hon. Gentleman in-
formation as to the first question he
raised. Mr. Boyle received the amount


79 supply Civil


{COMMONS}






81 Supply-Civil {SEPTEMBER 10, 18861 Service Estimates.


quoted as Private Secretary to Earl
Spencer. Of course, as he is no longer
Private Secretary he does not receive
that amount; and I understand that at
the time he was receiving it he was not
an Inspector.
MR. CLANCY: It is stated that he
was one of the Inspectors of the Local
Government Board.
Mn. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Done-
gal, E.): The discussion on this Vote
has taken some time, and I am unwill-
ing to trespass unnecessarily on the at-
tention of the Committee; but I wish to
mention a few points in connection with
the administration of the Local Govern-
ment Board, which, though they may
appear trivial, do affect in a serious
manner a considerable number of per-
sons. The first point I will raise has
reference to the accommodation of the
aged couples in workhouses. In regard
to this point a Question was asked in
this House the other day. Since that
Question was put, I have been in com-
munication with several of the most in-
telligent Guardians in this Metropolis,
and I am glad to say that the opinion I
have always expressed on this subject
was confirmed by those gentlemen. They
said that whenever any cases of this
kind arose in their Unions they endea-
voured to secure for these aged couples
outdoor relief. The officers of the Me-
tropolitan workhouses are averse to ac-
commodation for old married paupers;
they are unwilling to allow the paupers
to know their rights under the law, and
they are very angry with those who take
any steps to inform paupers over 60 years
of age what their rights are; and, under
these circumstances, they have endea-
voured-and endeavoured successfully,
as they assure me-to secure outdoor
relief for all respectable old couples.
Now, I submit to the Local Government
Board, whether it would not be advis-
able for them to draw the attention of
the Guardians generally to the desira-
bility, first of all, of avoiding the diffi-
culty, in matters of workhouse adminis-
tration, of having these married paupers
on the premises; secondly, the advisa-
bility of avoiding the expense which
these paupers entail; and, thirdly, the
advantage of giving a small amount of
outdoor relief in all cases where these
old married couples are respectable
people, and where they may be pre-
sumed to get assistance from other


quarters if they do get assistance from
the rates ? The second point I want to
urge on the attention of the right hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Ritchie) is this-that in
many of the workhouses in England
there are a number of unfortunate people
classed as dangerous lunatics, but of such
a condition mentally that they require a
certain amount of care and attention;
they really want a little more than
nursing. Their life at present is a very
hard one. They are exposed to a great
deal of unkindness from the somewhat
uncultivated people amongst whom their
lot is cast. The classification of lunatics
is not by any means perfect. In some
cases the crowding of lunatic wards
in workhouses is something perfectly
hideous; and if authoritative informa-
tion is wanted on the subject I direct
the right hon. Gentleman's attention to
page 40 of the last Report of the Lunacy
Commissioners in this country, in which
he will find special reference made to
the scandalous condition of the lunatic
wards of the Dudley Workhouse. I
only mention it because it has often been
reported upon before without any effect.
I direct the right hon. Gentleman's at-
tention to the lunacy wards of the Dudley
Workhouse; and if he is satisfied that
the complaint is well-grounded with re-
gard to that workhouse, perhaps he will
think it worth while to communicate
with the Lunacy Commissioners with
regard to the condition of a considerable
number of other workhouses in Great
Britain. He will find, if he pursues the
subject, that the condition of hopeless
lunatics in the English workhouses is
often very pitiable, and, to a great ex-
tent, depends upon causes which might
easily be removed by a proper classifica-
tion.
Mn. RITCHIE: I promise the hon.
Gentleman that I will make special in-
quiries; and if I have reason to believe
that the evils of which he complains-
exist at Dudley Workhouse, I shall cer-
tainly take steps to do what I can to
put an end to them. The hon. Gentle-
man is, no doubt, aware that great efforts
have been made to put down what was
at one time a great evil; and the result
is that an improvement has been made.
Of course, I cannot say that these evils
do not exist; but I will certainly inquire
and take such course as is desirable.
With reference to old couples living
together, no doubt it is perfectly true







Service 8st6males. 84


that in some cases difficulties have been
overcome by the outdoor relief given to
aged couples. The hon. Gentleman must
know that this question of outdoor re-
lief must be approached in a very care-
ful manner by Poor Law Guardians,
and that if the Local Government Board
were to encourage the system, the effect
might be very injurious. With reference
to the provisions made in workhouses
for old couples, I do not think the hon.
Gentleman is correct in saying that any
attempt is made to hide the rights of
these old couples from them.
MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: Will
the right hon. Gentleman allow me to
explain. I am speaking as a Guardian
of some experience in London. When
I found the condition of the Chelsea
Union pointed out to the Members of
the French Ministry as that of a model
workhouse, I, as a Guardian of that
Union, made it a point to go amongst
the old people, and inquire which of them
were married, and I was beset by the
officials of the workhouse, who depre-
cated the line I was taking, and who
explained that they would find it ex-
ceedingly difficult to maintain discipline
in the workhouse if the old people
knew what their rights were. I need
not say that the result of my proceeding
was that I did not ingratiate myself
with the officers.
MR. RITCHIE: How long is that
ago?
MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: Eight
years ago.
MR. RITCHIE: I think I explained,
in answer to a Question put to me the
other day by an hon. Member, that a
Circular had been sent out to all Boards
of Guardians specifying what their
duties were in that respect, and calling
upon them to perform them. I also
stated that in a great many cases where
.accommodation had been provided aged
couples had not availed themselves of
it. Of course, it does not at all follow
that there may not be exceptions in
which accommodation is required and
not provided. At the same time, I re-
peat what I said the other day, that if
any instances are brought to my know-
ledge where the obligations of the law
are not fulfilled, I shall consider it my
duty to call upon the Guardians to fulfil
their obligations under the law. I have
the most entire sympathy with the
object of the hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Mr. Ritchie


Arthur O'Connor), and the object of
those who desire that arrangements
shall be made for aged couples to live
together when they desire to do so. I
only repeat what I said then, that if any-
one will bring to my knowledge in-
stances in which the law has not been
fulfilled, I will make it my duty to call
on the Guardians to carry out the law.
DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid): I
wish to draw the attention of the right
hon. Gentleman the President of the
Local Government Board to an item
which amounts to 4,336, for a Chief
Inspector of Alkali Works and seven
Assistant Inspectors. Looking at the
condition of this House in which we
are assembled, I should very much like
to know what these Inspectors are for ?
MR. RITCHIE: The Inspectors are
to see that the Alkali Acts are carried
out.
DR. TANNER: I see that the In-
spectors are appointed under the Alkali
Works Regulation Act of 1881, and,
that being the case, I presume that the
duties of these gentlemen are to see
that the Act is carried out. If they do
carry out the Act, how is it that we
find the stonework of this building
peeling off day after day ? Looking at
the amount of money that we spend on
these Inspectors, I think we have a
right to look for some result from their
labours, especially when we know it
can be displayed in connection with the
very building in which we are assembled.
We have a right, so far as we are
brought into immediate contact with
that which forms a part of the duty of
these gentlemen, to expect that they
shall perform their functions with in-
telligence and circumspection. If, in
connection with a building like this, we
find such gross and palpable neglect on
the part of these Inspectors, no doubt,
were we to travel further, we should find
that elsewhere the condition of things
is much worse. I should like the right
hon. Gentlemen to tell me how it is that
these Inspectors have not carried out
their duty so far as that duty should be
brought to bear upon the condition of
the exterior of this building ?
MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool,
Scotland): I cannot see how the right
hon. Gentleman the President of the
Local Government Board, who is at the
head of the Department to whom these
Inspectors are responsible for the pro-


83 suppp~y- civil


{COMMONS)







{SEPTEMBER 10, 1886} Service Estimates.


per discharge of their duties, can sit
still without attempting to offer a reply
when a charge of this kind is made
against the subordinates who are men-
tioned in this Vote.
Mn. RITCHIE: I hardly thought
that the hen. Gentleman opposite could
be serious in connecting the Inspectors
under the Alkali Acts with the condi-
tion of the stonework of the House of
Commons. I failed to see the cause and
effect-
DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid): The
effect is observable on the structure of
this House.
Ma. RITCHIE: The Inspectors under
the Alkali Acts have to visit alkali
works, and see that they obey the pro-
visions of the law. How the fact that
the stone peals off the walls of the
Houses of Parliament can go to show
that these Inspectors have not properly
carried out their duties of inspection I
fail to see. I say I cannot trace the
cause and effect in the condition of the
House of Commons and the details of
this Vote.
MR. T. P. O'OONNOR (Liverpool,
Scotland): The right hen. Gentleman
forgets that right opposite the House of
Commons, on the other side of the river,
are situated Messrs. Doulton's extensive
pottery works. I remember the Alkali
Act being passed, and, if I am not mis-
taken, it applies to all works, the noxious
gases from which are calculated to in-
juriously affect the health of the popu-
lation or the condition of property
around them. I believe I am right
when I state that the effect of Messrs.
Doulton's works on all surrounding
buildings and on the health of the
people in the neighbourhood has been
the subject of strong complaint and of
controversy for the past 15 years. The
late much respected Archbishop of Can-
terbury, Dr. Tait, over and over again
called attention to the injurious effect of
these works upon Lambeth Palace and
its inhabitants; and if any Inspector will
only take the trouble to examine the
outside of this building, he will have
no difficulty in satisfying himself that
the works in question have a most
damaging effect upon the stonework of
these Houses. I think my hon. Friend
(Dr. Tanner) was amply justified in the
observations he made.
MR. MOLLOY (King's Co., Birr): I
noticed a gesture of dissent run along


the Benches opposite when my hon.
Friend (Dr. Tanner) suggested a con-
nection between the Inspectors under
the Alkali Acts and the condition of the
stonework of this building. But, as a
matter of fact, there is a very strong
connection. By a certain section of an
old Statute, Messrs. Doulton are per-
mitted to open the flues of their works
whilst carrying out certain operations.
Salt is used in the furnaces to produce
a glaze upon the pottery, and the gases
that are evolved pass into the atmos-
phere, combine with the moisture, and
eventually form hydrochloric acid, which
settles on the stonework of this House
and causes very material injury.
MR. RITCHIE: If the hon. Member
(Dr. Tanner) will communicate with me
privately on this subject I shall be glad
to consider the matter.
Mn. MOLLOY (King's Co., Birr): I
have mentioned this subject frequently
in previous Sessions of Parliament; but,
though I have always received the same
kind of answer as that just given,
nothing has ever been done.
Question put, and agreed to.
(4.) Motion made, and Question pro-
posed,
"That a sum, not exceeding 6,239, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum
necessary to defray the Charge which will
come in course of payment during the year
ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the
Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Com-
missioners in Lunacy in England."
Ms. MOLLOY (King's Co., Birr): I
beg to move the reduction of this Vote
by the sum of 9,000, the amount paid
to the Lunacy Commissioners in this
country, and I do so because I have
always looked upon these Commissioners
as I look upon them to-day-namely,
as a body utterly worthless for the pur-
pose for which they are appointed. The
main purpose for which these Commis-
sioners were instituted, as I have pointed
out Session after Session, was for the
protection of the unfortunate lunatic.
Now, let me just in a few words explain
how these gentlemen carry out their
work. There are, in all, six Commis-
sioners in Lunacy, three lay and three
professional. They are under the Act
bound to go about the country in
couples; therefore, we may say that for
the purpose of inspecting the different
lunatic asylums of this country there are
only three Commissioners. Now, the


85 supy-aa







Service Estimates. 88


duty of these Commissioners is not only
to visit and look after the asylums, but
to visit and examine the patients sepa-
rately for the purpose of ascertaining
what their condition is, and for the pur-
pose of preventing any misuse of the
law this miserable and detestable
Lunacy Law. The number of lunatics
in the country is 80,000 ; so that it
comes to this-as the Commissioners
must go in couples-that 80,000 lunatics
have only the protection which can be
given in the time that three men can
devote to their interests. Now that, on
the face of it, is an absurdity. Year
after year I have called attention to the
subject, and year after year I am told-
"We are about to introduce a Bill-we
agree with all you say, and we hope
that by next year our measure will be
passed into law and the evils you com-
plain of remedied." How does the
matter stand ? Three or four Bills have
been introduced into the House on the
subject. The hon. Member for Swansea
(Mr. Dillwyn) has introduced a Bill;
the Earl of Selborne introduced another
in the House of Lords; but though it
passed all its stages in the other House
there it rested, and there, I suppose, it
will rest until Doomsday unless we can
induce the Government to be active in
the matter. The Commissioners do not
do the work as they ought to perform
it; and I complain this year, as I have
complained year after year, that, by
what means I am unable to tell, in the
case of private lunatic asylums, when
the Inspectors go to visit the patients
the fact of their intended visits is in-
variably known beforehand to the
keepers of these establishments. As it
came out in evidence in our Law Courts
not long ago, and in evidence before the
Select Committee on the question of
Lunacy, the fact of an intended visit is
known beforehand and preparations are
made for it, everything is cleaned and
everybody is looking happy and smiling.
Such visits are not worth a straw.
These Inspectors have under their pro-
tection unfortunate people, some of
whom we know are incarcerated im-
properly for private purposes, and are
no more lunatics than we are in this
House. This was proved in some of
the evidence which has recently been
given in lunacy cases. Now, what are
these private asylums, because it might
appear that an inspection and close ex-
Mr. Molloy


amination into the condition of the
people in these establishments is not
necessary ? Well, the Earl of Selborne,
in the House of Lords, when speaking
on these subjects-I think it was the
Earl of Selborne-mentioned the fact
that the discharged coachman of one of
his friends was then keeping a private
asylum. I should be sorry to say that
that is the general character of the
keepers of these institutions. Far from
it. Still, such people do keep them;
and, therefore, it will be seen how ne-
cessary it is that these institutions should
be subject to the closest inspection and
examination. Of course, visits to the
public asylums are not of such import-
ance, in one sense, because public
asylums are under public view, and the
difference between public and private
institutions of this kind is that whilst
in the former the keeping of lunatics is
not a question of gain, in the latter it is
the reverse. The public asylums are
public institutions, the people connected
with which are paid by the State;
whereas the other class of asylums
are private undertakings, the whole aim
and object of the keepers being to make
a profit out of the patients. I will not
go into detail on this point, although it
is a very serious matter, and I am very
much in earnest with regard to it. I
could show, by quotations as to the
number of deaths in private asylums
and the number in public asylums, and
the number of cures in the one class of
institutions and in the other-I could
give a clear indication, nay, absolute
proof, that the interest of the patient
is not looked after in the private
asylums, but that he is kept there for
the purpose of gain. You would get
at this indication by comparing the
death-rate and the number of cures
under the two systems. I have another
objection to the Lunacy Commissioners.
When the Earl of Selborne introduced
his Bill last year, they made some re-
commendations, which, of course, were
received as such recommendations al-
ways are received-namely, with re-
spect; but these recommendations were
not carried out, and the Chairman or
the Head of these Lunacy Commis-
sioners resigned in high dudgeon. Well,
I think it would be a good thing if
the other Commissionsers would follow
this example, and we could get rid of
them all. This is the way they deal


8'7 sulpply-- civil


{COMMONS}






{SEPTEMBER 10, 1886} Service Estimates.


with the proposed reform of the Lunacy
Laws. In their last quarterly Report
they complained of the proposed inter-
vention of a County Court Judge, a
Stipendiary Magistrate, or two Justices
of the Peace, in the matter of the in-
carceration of a lunatic. At present the
law is that two persons, even if uncon-
nected in every shape and form with an
individual, can, by procuring a certificate
from two medical gentlemen, obtain the
incarceration of that individual. So that
if I have a grievance against anyone,
and can find two medical men who will
give me a certificate-not a probability,
but certainly not an impossibility, as we
know from circumstances which have
recently transpired-I can obtain that
person's incarceration in a lunatic
asylum. An hon. Member opposite is
laughing at me; but I tell him that if
I can get two medical men to certify to
his insanity I can incarcerate him in a
lunatic asylum. [Laughter.] I beg the
hon. Member's pardon; I did not mean
anything personal. I was endeavouring
to explain what the law is. These Com-
missioners were appointed for the pur-
pose of protecting the public as well as
the lunatics, and the object of the Bill
introduced into the House of Lords was
to allow of the intervention of a County
Court Judge, of a Magistrate, or two
Justices of the Peace, in this sense-
that before you could obtain the incar-
ceration of a person, the medical cer.-
tificate was to be certified by a public
Local Authority. Then, a second object
sought to be obtained by a reform of
the Lunacy Laws is power for these
Local Authorities to visit and examine
the asylums on certain fixed occasions.
The Commissioners object to the Local
Authority having power to visit and
examine lunatics, I think, once in three
years. Now, these are the gentlemen
who have been appointed to protect the
interests of lunatics, and who receive-
six of them-9,000 a-year, or 1,500
each. I assert that when reforms are
proposed by Parliament these gentle-
men object to them, on the ground that
they will give further protection to these
unfortunate lunatics. But the very sys-
tem which they object to is the system
in vogue in Scotland at the present
time, where it has been found to work
exceedingly well. It was because of the
experience we had obtained in Scotland
that the reforms were introduced in the


measure I have referred to, which passed
through all its stages in the House of
Lords last Session. I object to these
Commissioners, because I think they
are useless for the purpose for which
they were appointed. As collectors of
statistics they are, no doubt, very good
indeed; but the collection of statistics is
a work which can be very satisfactorily
performed by persons paid at a much
less rate and possessing much less power
than these Commissioners. I should
like to see men appointed as Commis-
siouers who would look into the law, in-
quire into the circumstances of the cases,
and understand the wants of these poor
people. By no act of the Commissioners
has freedom ever been restored to an
alleged lunatic. For six or seven years
I have taken an interest in this matter,
and yet, in that period, I cannot recall a
single case in which an alleged lunatic
has been freed from his incarceration
by any act of the Commissioners. On
the contrary, so far as my memory
serves me, they have invariably acted
as obstacles to the freeing of alleged
lunatics from the asylums. Their visits
and examinations must be of the most
cursory character; because, if you take
the private asylums alone, they have
not sufficient time to do the work. The
inspection of these places alone would
more than occupy all the time they have
at their disposal. And this question of
inspection is a question I call more at-
tention to than anything else, because
the public asylums, like public prisons
and hospitals, are open to public inspec-
tion. That is not the case with private
asylums; and it is ridiculous, on the face
of it, to suppose that three sets of Com-
missioners can visit all the persons incar-
cerated and detect such fraudulent cases
as in the course of the debates in the
House of Lords were shown to be pos-
sible. I hope the Bill which passed
through the House of Lords will be in-
troduced in this House next Session by
the Government. If it is not introduced,
it will be brought forward by a private
Member, if not in its entirety, at least
in its main features. There is one point
in the Bill as introduced into the House
of Lords to which I object. My objec-
tion to private asylums is based on the
single ground that the interests of pro-
prietors is not the protection or cure of
a patient, but is that of a common
tradesman in the matter. That is a


89 supy Cii






Service Estimates. 92


principle which, I think, is quite enough
to put an end to all private asylums in
the country; but the proposition which
was made in the House of Lords on this
matter was one which, to my mind, was
utterly ridiculous. They proposed a
kind of tontine arrangement; and if it
is proposed again, I shall give it my
strongest opposition, and I know several
hon. Members who will do the same.
They proposed in this Bill that no more
certificates shall be given for the hold-
ing and maintaining of private asylums,
but that those who hold certificates at
the present time shall be entitled to
continue to do so. They begin by assert-
ing, as I assert, that the whole system of
private lunatic asylums is wrong in its
very essence, and then they compromise
the matter by allowing existing institu-
tions to continue. They allow the assign-
ing of a certificate of an asylum just as if
it were a public-house. They express an
opinion against the continuing of private
asylums, and then they allow them to
continue with just the same force. If
their proposal has any other meaning,
it is this, that as the holders of private
asylums die out the money interest of
the remaining owners shall be increased;
and they propose this on the ground that
otherwise they would be compelled to
pay compensation to the proprietors of
the private asylums, if they refused to
allow them to continue their trade.
Now, to my mind, that is incompre-
hensible. You grant a certificate to a
man to permit him to keep a private
asylum. He pays a small fee, but that
small fee does not give him any pro-
perty. It is simply to bring him, so
to speak, under the supervision of the
Lunacy Commissioners, and to prevent
people from keeping asylums without
being registered. I object to this pro-
vision in the Earl of Selborne's Bill,
and I allude to it now because it is sure
to be introduced in any future Bill com-
ing from a similar quarter. I object to
it altogether, because I say that the cer-
tificate is simply a certificate of registra-
tion, and that it gives the holder no
more right than is possessed by any pri-
vate individual. To introduce the ques-
tion of compensation because you put
an end to that which is wrong, is carry-
ing the doctrine of compensation to a
most ridiculous point. Well, as I have
said, I do not wish to detain the Com-
mittee by going too fully into this ques-
Mr. Molloy


tion. I have made my protest against
this Vote regularly for the last three
years. I make my protest against it
again this year. I have gone a little
into detail simply for the purpose of
drawing attention to a proposal in the
proposed legislation which ought not to
be accepted-that is to say, the proposal
to continue existing private asylums,
which we are all agreed are wrong
in principle, and also the proposal to
grant compensation because you refuse
to allow these men holding your certifi-
cate to continue a trade which is wrong
and which is injurious to the public
good. I move to reduce the Vote by
9,000.
THE CHAIRMAN: I would point out
to the hon. Member that the sum now
asked for is only 6,239.
MR. MOLLOY: Then I move to re-
duce it by 6,000.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding 239, be granted
to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary
to defray the Charge which will come in course
of payment during the year ending on the 31st
day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Ex-
penses of the Office of the Commissioners in
Lunacy in England."--(Mr. Mollyy)
MR. W. J. CORBET (Wicklow, E.):
I agree with every word that has fallen
from my hon. Friend-or with every-
thing but one observation. He compli-
mented the Commissioners as a body for
the collection and publication of statis-
tics. Imust disagree with myhon. Friend
in that matter, and I wish to give some
information to the Committee on one or
two points in regard to it. In the first
place, I want to point out that in the
Report which the Commissioners have
just issued, and in preceding Reports,
there is to be found no account of the
cost of maintaining the lunatic poor of
England. Now that is a very remark-
able fact. I find that in the Reports of
the Scotch Commissioners and of the
Irish Commissioners there are very
complete and admirable tables setting
forth in full the details of the expen-
diture for maintenance, and also setting
forth the cost for buildings and every
other charge connected with the main-
tenance of the lunatic poor, and I fail to
see how it would be impossible in this
country, where finance is supposed to be
conducted in so superior a manner, for the
English Lunacy Commissioners to give
a similar statement of account. There


91 Supply- Civil


{COMMONS}






{SEPTEMBER 10, 1886} Service Estimates.


is another remarkable feature in this
Report of the Lunacy Commissioners.
They have stated, over and over again,
that insanity is not on the increase.
They have attempted to show that such
is the fact in ways of their own, but I
find from this Report that the actual
numbers of insane have increased year
by year from 36,762 in 1859, to 80,156
in 1885; and yet they go on asserting
annually-they have a paragraph for
thatpurpose in their Reports-that there
is no increase at all. In their 15th Re-
port, page 75, they say-
"During the 10 years, from 1st January,
1849, to 1st January, 1859, the number of pa-
tients in the various asylums of England and
Wales has advanced from 14,660 to 22,853."
And they go on to say-
The great increase which has taken place
in the number of patients in asylums is limited
almost entirely to pauper and criminal pa-
tients."
They then enter into figures as to pa-
tients in private asylums, and they
say-
"The foregoing calculations clearly show
that while the number of pauper patients has
increased so enormously "-
they admit the enormous increase-
"there has been no augmentation of the
private cases."
Now, I just wish to dwell for a moment
on this matter-and perhaps it is a
more important one than some hon.
Members would imagine. I hold it to
be the duty of these Commissioners, so
far from minimizing and making light
of so grave a matter as the affliction of
insanity-it is their duty, I say, as
honest servants of the public to let
the public know the actual truth.
In one of their Reports they attempt
to account for the increase under three
heads. First, the large number of
cases previously unreported and only
recently brought under observation;
secondly, the increased number of those
sent to asylums; and, thirdly, the pro-
longation of their life which occurred in
consequence. Now I admit to the full
the justice of the way in which they pro-
ceed to explain the increase; but this
explanation was given 26 years ago, and
the numbers were only then brought up
to 22,855, and the solution they gave
was in my mind a reasonable one. But
then how does the matter stand at the
present time, when the number has quad-
rupled? They give in their 40th Re-


port a Table which completely upsets all
their theories of no increase. I will not
trouble the Committtee by going through
all the figures on page 10 of the 40th
Report. But in 1859 I find that the
number of lunatics in borough and county
asylums was 15,844; the number in those
asylums to-day is 48,139; the number
in registered hospitals was 1,855, the
number at the date of their last Report
is 3,219; the number in Metropolitan
licensed houses in 1859 was 2,551, at
present it is 2,426; the number
residing with relatives and friends
was 5,920, it is now 6,313. The total
in 1859 was 36,762, and the gross total,
including those in Broadmoor and the
Metropolitan District Asylums, is now
80,156. It is then quite plain that in
every department, both in the public in-
stitutions and in regard to those pro-
vided for by their friends, there has
been, with trifling exceptions, an enor-
mous increase. Now, with regard to their
position, which has been referred to by
my hon. Friend the Member for King's
County (Mr. Molloy). With reference
to the Lunacy Bill, which was read three
times in the House of Lords, and a first
time in this House, I think it a very re-
markable thing that they should have
opposed the measure, which I consider
would have been a very beneficial one
in regard to the insane population of
the country. There is one matter to
which I desire to refer before I sit
down. I allude to a case upon which
the Lunacy Commissioners obtained an
order from Lord Chancellor Selborne to
make a Report-the case of a lady and
her daughter, both alleged to be insane,
and who were detained in the house of
a gardener at Newport, Isle of Wight.
The Commissioners endeavoured to exe-
cute the Lord Chancellor's order, but
were met with determined opposition on
the part of the gardener and his wife,
who, on two successive days, refused them
admission to the house. These people
were in consequence summoned before
the magistrates, the wife was discharged,
but the husband was convicted and fined
in a mitigated penalty. The order was
subsequently executed; but it was found
that the younger lady had been removed,
and had left England, and that the
mother was in a moribund state, and,
it appears, died very soon afterwards.
The Commissioners did not say that
there were any inquiries further than


93 SUPP?/- Civ~il







95 Supply-Civil


this. I shall certainly support the Mo-
tion of my hon. Friend for the reduction
of this Vote. I desire to draw atten-
tion to the Report itself, and to say that
it is incomplete. Several times I have
brought before the House the fact that
these Commissioners do not produce
their Report until Parliament is either
risen or is about to rise; and now I find,
from their preliminary observations in
this Report, that they complain rather
bitterly of having been forced to bring
it out so early as in July, and allude to
the fact that the Report is in conse-
quence wanting in some particulars.
We all know that Committees of this
House sit and take evidence, and print
it in the course of a few weeks, pro-
ducing Reports-in a few months cer-
tainly-which are of much greater im-
portance than the Report of these Com-
missioners; and, therefore, I do not
think that they have any just ground of
excuse for failing to produce their Re-
port in full within the time specified.
Sir, I beg to support the Motion of my
hon. Friend.
Dx. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid): No
doubt, the Report resulting from any
inquiry into the existing state of affairs
by the Commissioners in Lunacy is a
most valuable and important document.
When we look into the state of these
unfortunate people, who are afflicted in
the greatest degree, and see how de-
pendent they are upon the benevolence
of the State, we find many instances
which must move the natural feelings
of hon. Members to try and promote
the comfort of this class. I cannot help
saying, from what we have heard this
evening, that a complete case has been
put before the Committee by my hon.
Friend, and I shall have pleasure in
supporting his Motion. When we con-
sider that there are 80,000 people in
England afflicted with insanity, and
when we take into consideration that a
large number of these persons are left
to the tender mercies of managers and
proprietors of asylums, when what we
know of these asylums is a disgrace to
the humane feelings of the majority of
the population, the importance of the
subject impresses itself most deeply
upon our consideration. Now, it seems
to me that the Commissioners in Lunacy,
from what we have heard to-night, do
not perform their work in a satisfactory
manner. For my own part, I cannot
Mr. IW. J. Corbet


help saying, and I believe many hon.
Members will agree with me, that we
are, to a certain extent, biased by the
expressions which are used in connec-
tion with this subject. The history of
the past shows us that the insane have
been dealt with in a way not at all
suited to their condition; and perhaps
many Members of this House have read
a book which at one time tended more
than anything else to bring this matter
under the consideration of Parliament.
I refer to Valentine Vox, a book which I
read many years ago. There are many
points mentioned in that book which
are, practically speaking, true to-day.
Of course, we appoint Commissioners
to inspect the asylums; but, speaking
as a medical man, I know that these
Commissioners find very great difficulty
in dealing with this part of the work,
because we know that a person suffering
from what is called dementia may be
perfectly sane for a week or a fortnight,
and then go off his head again for two
or three days, passing from complete
sanity to savage mania. In many in-
stances it is very difficult for them to
express an opinion in these cases, and
the consequence is that, when the Com-
missioners go down to anyof the asylums,
they have more or less to act upon the
ipse dixit of the medical man in charge,
which, unfortunately, is not always re-
liable. As a medical man, I dislike to
say anything against the Profession to
which I have the honour to belong. In
dealing with this subject of private
lunatic asylums the element of profit
must not be lost sight of ; and this is a
point which demands the strictest in-
vestigation. I think this ought to be
seen into more thoroughly than it is at
present. I remember a case in point
which occurred about four years ago in
connection with a private lunatic asylum.
The case was not brought forward, be-
cause the relatives of the lunatic did not
like to make the matter public. The
lunatic in question was a professional
man who had been a clergyman, and
was afflicted with a propensity for the
excessive use of alcoholic liquors. He
was a man of weak constitution, which
brought about the particular form of
insanity with which he was afflicted,
and he was confined in a private asylum.
We know that people who go mad in
consequence of drink get worse for a
few days after they are deprived of it,


{COMMONS}


~Service Estimates. 96






Service Estimates. 98


and afterwards, as a rule, improve and
recover. Well, this gentleman was con-
fined for about nine or ten months, and
a member of his family wished to get
him out of the asylum; but, on inquiry,
they were told it would be better to
wait a little longer. This is the usual
answer that is given at private asylums.
After a great deal of trouble Commis-
sioners were appointed to visit the
asylum. The Commissioners came down,
but decided to postpone their examina-
tion until the next day. What had been
done to this poor man ? The fact is, in
the meantime, he had been allowed to
get hold of some liquor. When the
Commissioners came to the asylum they
were received with a smirk on the part
of the proprietor, and notably on the
part of the underlings in charge; they
were shown into a room, and there they
found this unfortunate man lying on a
table with his abdomen quite bare;
upon it was a kettle of water; and he
informed the Commissioners that he had
a fire inside him, and was boiling the
kettle to make punch. The Commis-
sioners would not be satisfied with
simple investigation; but they went
further and inquired into the cause.
What happened was that, in the
course of a fortnight, the man, whose
case was considered as hopeless, became
completely well; and, owing to the
efforts of his relative, who insisted
upon the Commissioners going down
again, he was released. But it is not
easy to get the Commissions to go down
a second time. They are often satisfied.
with a single visit; and it is a notorious
fact that they take the ipse dixit of the
medical man in charge. Unfortunately,
they remind me of the practice of con-
sulting physicians, who, when they are
called in to see a case and have an-
nounced the determination they have
come to, always begin by stating that
they completely and entirely agree with
the physician in charge; the only differ-
ence being that the ordinary consult-
ing physician is always bound to do some
little thing, if possible, in the case, be-
cause it is expected of him. These Com-
missioners are bound to send in a Re-
port; and here I must endorse the state-
ment of my hon. Friend the Member
for King's County (Mr. Molloy), who re-
ferred to the Reports of the Commis-
sioners as a scandal and as utterly
worthless as regards the main purpose
VOL. CCCIX. [THIRD SERIES.]


for which the Commissioners are ap-
pointed-namely, the protection of
lunatics. It is for issuing such Reports
as these that the Commissioners enjoy
large salaries. I trust that this debate
will produce some results. I hope that
a yearly Report will be issued, setting
forth on the face of it the number of
private asylums which have been visited
by the Commissioners. When we look
into the case of private asylums and
contrast them, and the way they are
managed, with public asylums, we see
that the private asylums are not so well
cared for as the public asylums. The
reason of this is perfectly clear; the
statistics at our hand show us that the
patients confied in private lunatic asy-
lums live for a long time. Of course they
do. Why? Because they are paid for;
and we know that in many cases people
who are sent to private lunatic asylums
are actually paid for after they are dead.
That is stated in the Report of the Com-
missioners; and there have been many
instancesinrecent years. But, although
the inmates of private asylums do live
for a considerable time, still they do
not recover in the same ratio as those in
public asylums. This is a matter which
ought thoroughly to be investigated by
the Commissioners, who ought to add
their quota to the knowledge we already
possess of this remarkable portion of
medical science; and I trust that in
future they will attend to their duty in
this respect more fully and completely
than they have done hitherto.
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE FOR THE HOME DEPART-
MENT (Mr. STUART-WORTLEY) (Shef-
field, Hallam): I have listened with
great attention to the hon. Gentlemen
who have brought under the notice of
the Committee the serious defects of
the present system. It is not the first
time that I have listened to their ear-
nest and conscientious pleading, and
it is not the first time that I am com-
pelled to refer to the overmastering cir-
cumstances which prevent the Govern-
ment taking in hand legislation to meet
the evils of which they speak. Last
year I undertook, on the part of Her
Majesty's Government then in Office,
that they would view with favour all
efforts to promote legislation ; and, ac-
cordingly, I am able to tell hon. Mem-
bers opposite that the then Lord Chan-
cellor had prepared a measure which ho
E


97 uppzy- civil


SEPTEMBER 10, 18861






service Ehtimates. 100


would have submitted to the House of
Lords had that Government remained in
Office. The noble and learned Lord
who occupied the Woolsack in the time
of the last Government did introduce a
Bill, which passed the House of Lords
and came down to this House; but,
owing to untoward circumstances, legis-
lation had to be put a stop to. It is
rather hard that the Commissioners
should be found fault with, and that a
proposal should be made to reduce their
salaries, because Parliament has been
unable to amend the Lunacy Laws in
the direction in which they required
amendment. I have had difficulty in
making out, from the speeches of hon.
Members opposite, whether they wish to
increase the number of Commissioners
or to have none at all; whether it is
wanted to make easy their difficulties, so
as to make them able to prevent abuses.
I believe that the latter is the true policy,
and such would have been the object of
the legislation of the House of Lords
last Session. The Bill of last Session
aimed at the gradual extinction of pri-
vate asylums; but hon. Members will
see that we cannot abolish these all at
once, because we have at present no
substitute for them, and the only way to
extinguish them would be by the estab-
lishment of asylums for paying patients.
With regard to the question of requiring
an order of a magistrate before you
detain a lunatic, it is hard to find fault
with the Commissioners because they
disapproved of this portion of the Bill.
I can assure the hon. Member for King's
County (Mr. Molloy), and other hon.
Gentlemen who take an interest in this
subject, that between this and the next
Session of Parliament it will occupy my
most earnest attention, and that of Her
Majesty's Government, and that no time
will be lost in asking the assent of Par-
liament to legislation. I do not propose
to deal any further now with the un-
doubtedly important matters raised by
hon. Members opposite. I ask them to
be content with the fact that nothing
will be left undone for the purpose of
securing what they consider to be con-
ducive to the welfare of this class of the
afflicted. The hon. Member for Wick-
low (Mr. W. J. Corbet) has referred to
the Report of the Commissioners. The
Commissioners were asked to bring out
their Report earlier this year; but they
were supplied with no additional staff
fMr. Stuart- Wortley


and no additional powers for the pur-
pose of acceleration. With regard to
this, I may say that the arrangement
might possibly have been made more
lucid had they been allowed more time
in which to bring out their Report. I
trust, after this explanation, the hon.
Gentleman will not see any necessity to
offer serious opposition to the Vote.
Mn. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.): My
hon. Friend the Member for the Birr
Division of King's County (Mr. Molloy),
who moved the Motion for the reduction
of this Vote, is not present at this mo-
ment; but I am sure we shall be con-
sulting his wishes if we take a division.
My hon. Friend has stated to-night that
this is the fourth year he has drawn at-
tention to this subject. Notwithstanding
this, he is treated in the scantiest man-
ner-in such a manner, in fact, as al-
most leads one to suppose that the Go-
vernment doubt the hon. Gentleman's
sincerity in bringing the matter forward.
Under these circumstances, and con-
sidering that the hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Stuart-Wortley) gave us no assurance
that there will be any legislation tending
in the direction pointed out by my hon.
Friend, we are bound to go to a division.
We shall divide as a practical protest
against this system of procrastination.
The assurance that this subject will re-
ceive the most earnest attention of the
Government is of the most stereotyped
character. In Ireland, when we hear
that the Government are going to give
most earnest and serious attention to any
matter, we come to the conclusion that
they are not going to do anything what-
ever until they are absolutely compelled.
The hon. Gentleman(Mr. Stuart-Wortley)
has saidthat thereisotherBusinessbefore
Parliament which prevents legislation
on this subject. He must know per-
fectly well that, even though Irish ques-
tions do monopolize the larger share of
the time of Parliament, non-contentious
legislation-and no one will pretend
for a moment that legislation on this
subject is other than of a non-contentious
character-has in these times a good
chance of passing. I will not assume
that anyone in this House has any other
motive than to benefit this unfortunate
class of human beings; secondly, I can-
not imagine anyone in this House setting
up his views in opposition to thdse which
will be generally conceded to be right;
and I am confident that if a Bill were


99 Sucpply- -Civil


{COMMONS}







Service Estimates. 102


introduced dealing with this subject, and
commanding the support of a large
number of Members,. it would not ex-
perience any difficulty in passing through
all its stages in the busiest time. This
is the fourth time the hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Molloy) has drawn attention to this
question. I do not know whether he
went to a division on previous occasions
-probably he did not, and it turns out
that his forbearance has been rewarded
by nothing being done. I think we are
bound to go a step further on this occa-
sion; and, therefore, if I am allowed to
do so, I shall insist upon a division being
taken.
Mn. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal,
E.): I do not rise for the purpose of
offering any opinion on the question of
the debate, and for the very reason that
I have not heard the whole of the
debate; but before going to a division
I should like to draw the attention of the
hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stuart-Wortley)
to one or two points in connection with
this Vote. The first point I wish to raise
is that of the utter want of attention
which the representations of the Com-
missioners with regard to the employ-
ment of paid skilled attendants for
imbecile inmates of workhouses have
hitherto met with at the hands of Guar-
dians. The other point is that of the
necessity of a diet superior to that which
is given to ordinary inmates. On these
two points the Commissioners have more
than once complained that their represen-
tations are all in vain. Then I assume
that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Ritchie) will take notice that the Com-
missioners have remarked upon the un-
satisfactory surroundings or circum-
stances of post mortem examinations in
the Metropolitan District Asylum at
Leavesden. The Commissioners re-
ported that the practice of making post
mortem examinations was not so general
as they believed it might be; and the
chief reason why they urged that care-
ful post mortem examinations should be
held was that they had some ground for
suspecting that many of the deceased
patients had suffered personal injuries,
which escaped observation, such as
broken limbs. Broken limbs may often
result from ill-treatment by attendants
not particularly well qualified for the
positions they occupy. The Commis-
sioners go on to compare favourably the
state of things in the county and borough


asylums with the circumstances of the
managementof the Metropolitan Asylums
Board. Now that, certainly, is a matter
which ought to receive the attention of
the proper authorities. The last point
to which I desire to ask the attention of
the Government is in reference to the
Roman Catholic inmates of a number of
these lunatic asylums. No one will
question that the influence of religion
has often a very quieting and salutary
effect upon persons suffering from mental
disorder. Now, in the Birmingham
Asylum there are no less than 50 Ca-
tholic patients, who, mad as they may be
on certain points, are yet keenly alive to
the fact that according to the dictates of
their religion they are obliged, if pos-
sible, to hear Mass on Sundays and
Holidays of Obligation. The Commis-
sioners are of opinion that the absence
of facilities for the purpose is a grievance
which ought to be remedied. That is
not an isolated case. On page 278 of the
Commissioners' Report the same repre-
sentation is made with regard to the
Roman Catholic patients in the New-
castle-on-Tyne Asylum. These patients
number between 40 and 50, and the
Commissioners are of opinion that the
ministrations of a priest of their own
faith should be obtained for them. I
trust the attention of the hon. Gentle-
man will be directed to this point also.
Question put.
The Committee divided:-Ayes 67;
Noes 123: Majority 56.-(Div. List,
No. 19.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
(5.) 29,081, to complete the sum for
the Mint, including Coinage.
Mn. DILLON (Mayo, E.): Upon
this Vote I should like to raise the
question of the desirability of continu-
ing the circulation of half-sovereigns.
We all know that this question.was
raised, I think, about two years ago in
a very unpleasant shape. I cannot re-
collect the exact amount, but it is a
very large one, which it was then stated
is lost annually through the depreciation
in the value of half-sovereigns. The
amount of gold in half-sovereigns circu-
lated in England is exceedingly great;
and, in my opinion, the time has come
when the Government ought to abolish
the circulation of half-sovereigns alto-
gether. I am quite aware that such a


101 su'ppply- Civzil


(SEPTE~iBER 10, 18861







103 Supply-Civil


course would meet with considerable op-
position from men who consider the
half-sovereign a convenient coin.
Notice taken, that 40 Members were
not present; Committee counted, and 40
Members being found present,
MR. DILLON (resuming): I was
pointing out, Mr. Courtney, that by
some people the half-sovereign is con-
sidered a very useful coin; but that
now it has become a very grave ques-
tion whether, for the sake of the conve-
nience of persons who like the coin, a
continuous loss through its circulation
should be sustained by the country.
Everyone who knows anything about
gold coinage knows that the wear and
tear of half-sovereigns is exceedingly
great as compared with the wear and
tear of sovereigns. I should think it is
fully double, if not more; and the con-
sequence of this is that a loss of a
very considerable amount-I have not
ascertained the amount-is sustained
every year, and will go on as long as
these coins are circulated. What I wish
to urge upon the Committee is that, in
my opinion, the proper course for the
Government to take is to call in half-
sovereigns, and to discontinue their cir-
culation. Well, now, when we come to
examine the coinage of both coun-
tries-I will deal with that of the United
States of America and that of Italy,
having had some opportunity of study-
ing the coinage of both these countries
-we find that the circulation of gold is
exceedingly scanty; that, practically,
there is no coin such as the half-sove-
reign circulated in those countries. I am
not aware that in the United States any
serious inconvenience arises from the
non-circulation of gold. The circulation
of gold is almost entirely confined to the
20-dollar piece, which is worth rather
over 4. On account of its size
this coin circulates very little, and
therefore the loss through wear and
tear is exceedingly slight. Of course,
I know that in the United States
paper money takes the place of gold.
The tendency of civilization is to in-
crease largely the circulation of paper
money and decrease the circulation of
gold. It may be said that the point I
have raised is but a small branch of the
great question of currency. But it still
is one worthy of consideration : it is well
to consider whether the circulation of
Mr. Dillon


gold to such an extent as is witnessed in
this country, an extent which does not
exist in any other country, should be
any longer continued, especially when
regard is had to the fact that such a
circulation leads to perpetual waste and
loss. As I have said, and as hon. Mem-
bers are no doubt aware, in the United
States of America the place of gold is
enormously taken by paper. My expe-
rience, and it is somewhat considerable,
is that no inconvenience arises from this
fact. Indeed, I believe that besides the
loss in wear and tear, which is pre-
vented by the great substitution of paper
for gold, the convenience to individuals,
as well as to the State, is very great. I
recognize that it would not be proper to
raise the large question of paper cur-
rency at this particular time, and in so
informal a manner ; and, therefore, I
will simply say that in view of the
growing scarcity of gold, and of the diffi-
cult questions which have arisen out of
that scarcity, the Government are bound,
without entirely revolutionizing the cur-
rency system of England, to consider
what newer methods they can adopt to
stem the waste of gold in this country.
I believe no substantial inconvenience
would be inflicted on the public of Eng-
land if the coinage of half-sovereigns
was entirely stopped, and those that are
at present in circulation called in and
melted down, and a silver currency sub-
stituted for them. I know perfectly
well that such a measure as this will
have a very small effect indeed in meet-
ing the difficulties which are known to
exist on account of the scarcity of gold;
but, so far as it goes, to will help, tempo-
rarily, at all events, to relieve the pres-
sure in this direction : it will take in at
least 10,000,000 sterling of gold, and
throw it on the market-perhaps more;
I have only made a rough guess-and
in the replacement a considerable quan-
tity of silver will be absorbed. While
the continuous fall of silver is inflicting
great hardship on individuals, and I be-
lieve leading to widespread difficulties
in trade, even while the Committee
which has been appointed to inquire
into these matters is sitting, I do not
think so small a matter as this ought to
be neglected by the Government, if it
will, as I think it will, check the down-
ward tendency of silver in the market.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-
QUER (Lord RANDOLrH CHUROHILL)


Service Estimates, 1044


{COMMONS}







Service Estimates. 106


(Paddington, S.): Mr. Courtney, I was
not aware that this subject was to have
been brought forward to-night. The
hon. Member opposite (Mr. Dillon) must
know that he has raised a question which
is of very large and wide range, and,
in some sense, very unfathomable and
mysterious; and it is not due to any want
of courtesy to him at all if I ask the
hon. Member to excuse me from at-
tempting to follow him with any amount
of elaboration into the suggestions which
he has made. I must frankly admit
that I do not feel myself able at the
present time to deal with the questions
he has raised. These are questions
which must before very long come before
the House of Commons for very serious
consideration. I imagine that the hon.
Gentleman has combined, to some ex-
tent, two questions which ought to be
kept distinct and separate. He has
combined the question of the quantity
of light gold coin which is at present in
circulation, and he has raised the much
larger question as to whether it is ad-
visable that we should continue to coin
small gold coins. As to the question of
the quantity of light coins in circulation,
I hope that the Revenue will be in a
sufficiently satisfactory state to allow of
its being dealt with next year; but the
question as to whether it is politic or
prudent to circulate, or to withdraw from
circulation, small gold coins is a matter
on which I am not able at the present
time to arrive at a definite conclusion.
The hon. Member suggests that we
should discontinue the coinage of half-
sovereigns, in order, if I understand him
right, that we should, so far as it goes, re-
habilitate the value of silver. But the hon.
Member himself admits that the effect of
such a course will be extremely small, and
can only act as a very slight palliative
upon the depreciation of silver in the
market. I admit, however, that this
question of the withdrawal of half-sove-
reigns is one well worthy of considera-
tion, and I am not at present aware of
any great or overwhelming objection to
it; but, at the same time, I should be
sorry to-night to express a definite opi-
nion with regard to it. No doubt, it is
quite open to argument that our cur-
rency arrangements are not, from one
point of view, considered strictly with a
view to economy of gold, and to economy
in the use of gold. But, on the other
hand, I submit to the hon. Member that


what may be called our extravagance in
the use of gold adds indirectly to Eng-
lish credit. It may be extravagant for
us to use gold so very freely; but, on
the other hand, I am not prepared to
deny that our being able to afford to use
gold so freely may be in itself a source
of credit to this country.- Then the hon.
Member must recollect, when he advo-
cates a greater use of paper money, as
in the United States, how strong in
England is the force of custom and of
habit. For very many years-in fact,
since the time of Lord Liverpool-the
people of this country, who are singularly
influenced by habit and custom, and
who in questions of this kind are mar-
vellously conservative, have been ac-
customed to a gold coinage, and to a free
use of gold in all ordinary commercial
and trading transactions; and it is quite
possible that the greatest imaginable
mischief to all classes might arise from
any very sudden or violent interference
by the Government, or the Legislature,
with what has come to be, perhaps, a
deep-rooted and almostineradicable habit
on the part of the people of this coun-
try. I only make these remarksin order
to show to the hon. Member that the
subjects he has raised are far, indeed,
from being absent from my mind. The
moment the exigencies of Parliament
allow me to do so, it is my hope and in-
tention to devote close and careful study
to these questions; but I trust the hon.
Gentleman will not expect me to commit
myself to any particular opinion on the
questions he has raised, but will be con-
tent with the assurance that these ques-
tions are receiving the most careful at-
tention of the Government. A certain
portion of the subject, that with regard
to the excessive use of gold in our cur-
rency bearing upon the depreciation of
silver, is obviously a matter which must
come under the consideration of the
Royal Commission which the Govern-
ment have appointed. That Commis-
sion will, I trust, investigate the matter
with as much expedition as its nature
will admit of; but before it reports it
obviously will be impossible for the Go-
vernment to take any definite action.
MR. DILLON: The answer of the
noble Lord the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer is entirely satisfactory to me.
I did not expect for a moment that he
would stop the circulation of half-sove-
reigns without consideration. Perhaps


105 spl-ii


ISErTEMBER 10, 18861







Service Estimates. 108


it is as well that I should say I only
alluded incidentally to the greater ques-
tion of currency reform, and that I ad-
mitted that the question I raised was a
small one, but that I thought it was
well worthy the attention of the noble
Lord. The noble Lord, I think, slightly
misunderstood me. I did not say the
stoppage of the coinage of half-sove-
reigns would have any great effect on
the silver, or bullion market. My in-
tention certainly was to convey that if
you were to take in all the gold which
is now circulating in the shape of half-
sovereigns and replace it by silver, and
do all this in one year, if it could be done,
it would act as a sort of check upon the
depreciation in the value of silver.
MR. CONWAY (Leitrim, N.) : I beg
to point out that the loss on the coinage
of gold is estimated at 2,000, and that
on the coinage of silver 500. I trust the
Chancellor of the Exchequer will see his
way to adopt the circulation of silver to a
greater extent than now obtains. There
is one question I should like to ask, and
it has reference to steel coinage. The late
Professor Jevons recommended that steel
ought to be employed for the manufac-
ture of smaller coins, instead of bronze.
If rust could be prevented, it is quite
clear that such a coinage would be very
picturesque and advantageous. I should
like to elicit from the noble Lord the
Chancellor of the Exchequer whether
the authorities have any intention of
carrying into effect this recommendation
of the late Professor Jovons ?
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
This question has not been before me,
and really I am not sufficiently ac-
quainted with it to pronounce an opinion
upon it.
MR. CAINE (Barrow-in-Furness): It
seems to me that the 400 put down
under Sub-head G. for Brokerage is not
a' proper expenditure. I see no reason
whatever why the Deputy Master of the
Mint should not go into the silver market
himself, and do his own buying, and
thus save this amount for brokerage. I
trust we shall receive some explanation
upon this point.
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. JAcKsoN) (Leeds, N.): I
think anyone who is accustomed to trans-
act business in London in articles of
produce coming from abroad his pretty
well aware that it is the custom in almost
every branch of business to employ
Mr. Dillon


brokers. It may be, and no doubt it is,
true that any individual who goes into
the London Market can, without any
difficulty, get any reasonable quantity
of either gold or silver bullion; but as
a matter of economy-and I understand
the hon. Gentleman raises the question
entirely on that ground-I should say,
from my own personal experience of
business in London, that the Govern-
ment are wise in following the custom
of the trade, and that probably the 400
a-year which is spent in this way is
more than saved by the employment of
a broker. By buying bullion ourselves
we might save the broker's commission;
but I am confident we should have to
pay fully its equivalent, and probably
more, in the extra price asked us.
MR. JORDAN (Clare, W.): The
usage in ordinary trade is, I think,
that brokerage is paid by the seller, and
not by the buyer. That has been my
experience in the sale and purchase of
American produce. That being so, I do
not see why, in this case, the brokerage
should be charged to the buyer instead
of to the seller.
MR. A. BLANE (Armagh, S.): I see
that the loss on the coinage of silver is
put down at 500, and that on the
coinage of gold at 2,000. The loss on
gold is charged for, while that on silver
is not. Gold is supposed to be the money
of rich men, and yet they get the
weight of gold back. Silver is the
money of poor men, and for any de-
ficiency they are charged. I think we
ought to receive some explanation on
this point.
MR. JACKSON: I think I can ex-
plain to the hon. Member the practice
with regard to gold coinage. Gold coins
are issued free of charge in exchange
for bullion.
MR. A. BLANE: But will the hon.
Gentleman explain how it is that silver
is charged for and gold is not? If the
hon. Gentleman does not give us a satis-
factory explanation I am afraid I shall
have to move to reduce the Vote.
MR. JACKSON: If the hon. Gentle-
man means to reduce the Vote, perhaps
he will kindly put his question in a
form in which the Government can un-
derstand it ?
MR. A. BLANE: It is quite easy. A
man brings a certain weight of gold to
the Mint, and gets the same weight back.
If he brings silver he is charged for it.


107 supply-civili


{COMMONS}






{SEPTEMBER 10, 1886}


MR. JACKSON: The coinage of silver
is charged for, and it arises from the fact
that silver is not a legal tender in this
country, and gold is. The coinage of
this country is a gold coinage, and silver
is merely a token coinage.
MR. CAINE: Perhaps the hon. Gen-
tleman the Secretary to the Treasury
will say whether any Commission is
charged on gold when it is purchased ?
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
No.
Mn. CAINE: Is there nothing paid
to brokers ?
MR. JACKSON: I imagine there
would be if you had to go into the
Market to buy gold; in that case you
would leave to pay brokerage on gold
just as on silver. I take it, however,
that the 400 is charged as brokerage
on the purchase of silver only.
MR. CAINE: The whole tendency
among men of business in London is to
get rid of brokerage, and I cannot ac-
cept as satisfactorythe explanation given
by the hon. Gentleman. I shall not
divide the Committee on the present oc-
casion; but if this amount appears in
next year's Estimates I shall repeat the
question, and most certainly take a
division.
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Caine) advo-
cates the abolition of brokerage; but,
in connection with the purchase of silver,
the position of the Government does not
differ from that of private firms. The
Government goes into the Market just
as other purchasers do, and has to em-
ploy and pay brokers in the ordinary
way. If an individual wanting silver
did not employ brokers he would have
to add to his own expenses, so there
would be very little difference in the
long run. If we abolished this broker-
age, and expect the Master of the Mint
to go into the market whenever he wants
silver, he would have to add to his own
establishment in order to provide that
the purchases of silver should be pro-
perly and economically made. Obviously,
it must be a saving to the Government
to employ men to purchase silver who
are properly qualified ; it must be more
economical to employ persons who are
connected with that special business
than to add to our own establishment
men unaccustomed possibly to the Mar-
ket, and who at times would not be em-
ployed at all. I put it to the hon. Gen-


tleman, as a man of business, whether
he really thinks it is extravagant of the
Government to do what every private
firm finds it advantageous to do ?
Mu. CAINE: I can assure the noble
Lord it is not the custom of firms in
London to employ brokers. I myself
am a merchant in produce in the City of
London, and I never dream of paying
brokers. This silver is consigned to the
dealer in silver by the owners of the
silver, and you pay him brokerage. The
Deputy Master of the Mint is not at all
overworked; he is a large dealer in this
produce; and why should he not go to
Market and buy from the man who has
silver to sell ? As a matter of fact, two
commissions are paid for every pound
of this silver that is purchased by the
Mint. This 400 is an unnecessary
charge, and if the matter is properly
looked into, there will be no difficulty
in obviating the charge in future.
MR. DIXON-HARTLAND (Middle-
sex, Uxbridge): May I ask if the same
amount of silver is bought every year,
because 400 has been regularly charged
for years past? It is a notable fact that
silver is a great glut in the Market.
There is a great amount in the banks;
indeed, managers find the greatest diffi-
culty in getting rid of it. I should like
to know why 400 is charged regularly
every year for buying this silver, when
probably no such sum is ever spent?
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
I promise the hon. Member for Uxbridge
(Mr. Dixon-Hartland), and hon. Gentle-
men generally, that I will take the
earliest possible opportunity of discuss-
ing the question with the Master of the
Mint, in order to inform myself more
fully upon it.
MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.): On the
question of brokerage I should say
that if the Master of the Mint is really
a judge of the value of silver he ought
to buy silver himself; but if he does not
understand silver, and has not time
to watch the fluctuations of the Market,
a broker is a very proper man to em-
ploy. As a man of business, my ex-
perience in that a person who only goes
occasionally into the Market, and who
does not carefully study the Market, is
verylikely to make injudicious bargains,
and may, in consequence, very easily
lose 400.
MR. CRILLY (Mayo, N.): Notwith-
standing the comments made from the


Service Estimates.


109 Swply- civil







111 Supply--Civil


Treasury Bench, I do not quite see why
we should give way on this matter
all at once. I do not recognize the
force of the remarks that have been
made by the Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Jackson), or by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph
Churchill). I agree with the hon.
Gentleman the Member for Barrow-in-
Furness (Mr. Caine) that two broker-
ages are paid, and that the Deputy
Master of the Mint, who receives 1,500
a year, ought, when necessary, to pur-
chase the silver himself. But if it is
found that the Deputy Master of the
Mint cannot buy silver owing to the
pressure of other duties, the "Master
and Worker" of the Department, who
happens to be the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, might do some practical and
actual work, and thus allow the Deputy
Master sufficient time to go to market,
and purchase the silver for which 400
is now paid to brokers. I know that
formerly a very large business was done
on the Liverpool Cotton Exchange by
brokers; but it gradually dawned on
the Lancashire manufacturers that they
could make their own purchases, and
save brokerage. They thus saved a great
deal, and this public Department could
do the same if they acted as the Lanca-
shire manufacturers did. This 400
might be absolutely saved if the Gen-
tleman to whom 1,500 a-year was paid
bought the silver himself; and if he
could not do the work, why not bring
into requisition the services of the
"Master and Worker ? "
MR. P. O'BRIEN (Monaghan, N.):
The question raised by the hon. Gentle-
man the Member for East Mayo (Mr.
Dillon) is, as the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer (Lord Randolph Churchill)
admitted, one of wide and large range ;
but I do not think the Committee will
agree with the noble Lord in consider-
ing it very mysterious. I do not think
it would be very mysterious in its opera-
tion. The effect of withdrawing half-
sovereigns from circulation would, I am
sure, be very beneficial in many respects ;
and therefore the suggestion of my hon.
Friend deserves the consideration of the
Government. But, Mr. Courtney, it
strikes me that the charge of 2,500
for loss of gold and silver withdrawn
from circulation is worthy of some
consideration.
rI. Crilly


MR. MOLLOY: If there is a loss of
2,000 on the gold coinage, the whole
of the sum ought to be recovered from
the "sweep." I should like to know
how it comes to pass that there is this
heavy loss upon gold coinage, and only
a portion of it is obtained from the
"sweep?"
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
The hon. Member puts to me a technical
question which I am quite unable to
answer; and I do not think that if he
remains in the House 50 years he will
ever find a Chancellor of the Exchequer
ready to answer off-hand questions of
this kind. I do not know whether he
has ever been to the Mint. I went
there not many years ago, and I was
informed that a considerable amount of
gold was lost in coinage, in waste of
one kind or another; but that from time
to time a very careful "sweep was
made by the workmen, in which a great
portion of the gold lost in the process of
manufacture was recovered. Whether the
recovery from the sweep" balances the
loss on coinage I am not quite prepared
to say.
MR. MOLLOY: I admit the ques-
tion is rather intricate, and my inten-
tion was simply to draw the noble
Lord's attention to it. I assert, how-
ever, from my knowledge of these
matters, that there ought not to be
any loss on the coinage of gold. The
whole of the loss in coinage, within a
fraction, ought to be recovered from the
"sweep."
MR. J. ROWLANDS (Finsbury, E.):
Perhaps the noble Lord the Chancellor
of the Exchequer can tell us what be-
comes of the sweep "?
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
Obviously, what is recovered by the
employs in the sweep is used in
subsequent manufacture.
MR. J. ROWLANDS: As I have had
some practical experience in this matter,
perhaps the noble Lord will excuse me
if I say that the employs do not use
up the "sweep." The "sweep" is
sold; someone purchases it; and I think
it should be shown on the Estimates
exactly how much it realizes.
An hon. MEMBER: I think the noble
Lord was perfectly correct in saying that
no Chancellor of the Exchequer during
the next 50 years will be able to answer
every question of this character off-hand.


{COMMONS}


Service E81imale&. 112







Service Estimates. 114


As a matter of fact, the "sweep" is
sold.
Vote agreed to.
(6.) Motion made, and Question pro-
posed,
"That a sum, not exceeding 5,796, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum
necessary to defray the Charge which will come
in course of payment during the year ending
on the 31st day of MIarch 1887, for the Salaries
and Expenses of the National Debt Office."
Smn GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): The question I wish to
raise is, whether it is advisable in the
public interest that Sir Rivers Wilson,
the Comptroller of the National Debt,
should also occupy the position of
Director of a private financial under-
taking ? Sir Rivers Wilson, as Comp-
troller of the National Debt, is paid a
salary of 1,500 a-year, and in addition
he has been appointed a Director of the
Suez Oanal, with a salary of 500
a-year. He was not satisfied with his
lot, and therefore gave his name to a
private financial undertaking. The at-
tention of the right hon. Gentleman the
Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. W. E.
Gladstone), then Prime Minister, was
called to the subject, and the result was
that Sir Rivers Wilson resigned his
private appointment. I find, however,
that Sir Rivers Wilson has still con-
tinued to be a Director of the British and
Foreign Life and Fire Insurance Com-
pany. I have no doubt he is paid for
his services as a Director of this Com-
pany; his salary may not be a large
one; but, nevertheless, a very large
principle is involved. The late Prime
Minister undertook to consider the
general question of the connection of
permanent Civil servants with private
undertakings. The right hon. Gentleman
did not come to a conclusion; but the
late Chancellor of the Exchequer-the
present Member for South Edinburgh
(Mr. Childers)-considered the question
another year, and ended by saying he
was afraid he could not lay down any
rule, but must leave the matter to the
discretion of the Heads of Offices. It
does seem to me that, of all officers of
the Government, the Comptroller of the
National Debt ought not to embark in
private enterprises. It seems to me the
principle that he ought not to do so was
conceded when he was obliged to resign
the appointment he had at one time ac-


cepted. I will not detain the Committee
longer; but I hope the Chancellor of
the Exchequer will give his serious
attention to the matter, and that he
will deem it right to direct, or to re-
quest, Sir Rivers Wilson to give up the
Directorship of the private Company,
and be content with the two appoint-
ments he holds under the Government.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-
QUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCRHILL)
(Paddington, S.) : In reply to the hon.
Gentleman (Sir George Campbell) all
I have to say is that Sir Rivers Wilson
is a most valuable public servant, one
of the most valuable this country pos-
sesses. I have no knowledge whatever
of the circumstances to which the hon.
GCtleman alludes. The great charge
the ion. Member brings against Sir
Rivers Wilson is that he is a Director of
an Insurance Company, the name of which
I recognize as being that of one of the
most respectable Insurance Companies
in this country. I can see no reason, on
my prevent information, why Sir Rivers
Wilson should not be a Director of this
Company; and if that is all the hon.
Member has to urge against Sir Rivers
Wilson I really cannot undertake to
interfere.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I regret
that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
does not see any objection to Sir Rivers
Wilson holding an appointment in a
private undertaking at the same time
that he is the Comptroller of the Na-
tional Debt. I beg to move the reduc-
tion of this Vote by 500.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding 5,296, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum
necessary to defray the Charge which will come
in course of payment during the year ending
on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries
and Expenses of the National Debt Office."-
(Sir George Campbell.)
Mn. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.): The
noble Lord stated that Sir Rivers
Wilson is a very able official, and the
Director of a most respectable Assur-
ance Company; but that, I think, is to
a very large extent begging the ques-
tion. The question seems to me to be
whether public officials shall hold ap-
pointments in private Companies, out-
side their position as officials of the
Government. There is, at the present
time, a considerable amount of agitation
among a certain class of people against


113 sup~ply--civil


ISErTEMBER 10, 18861







Service Estimates. 116


public officials being Directors of Sup-
ply Associations. I certainly think the
Government officials should be paid a
reasonable salary for their services, and
that they should not exceed the duties
of their Office; and, more than that, I
think that gentlemen holding Office
under Government should not be al-
lowed to sell the use of their names as
" guinea pigs to public Companies
which are wanted, simply because they
have Offices under Government. I as-
sent to all the noble Lord has said in
favour of Sir Rivers Wilson; but I en-
tirely dissent from the position he has
taken up, that there is no objection
to Government officials becoming mem-
bers of private firms. After the remark
of the noble Lord, that Sir Rivers Wil-
son could become the Director of a re-
spectable Assurance Company if he
thought fit, it is probable that many
other officials will become members of
Assurance Companies of shady charac-
ter, and by that means may carry ruin
to a large number of people. I venture
to hope that the noble Lord will recon-
sider this question, and give a firm
decision, not only on the merits of this
particular case, but with regard to the
position of Government officials gene-
rally in matters of this kind.
MR. SHEEHY (Galway, S.): I shall
be inclined to vote for the Motion of the
hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George
Campbell). I think that the noble Lord
has made a very indiscreet defence of
Sir Rivers Wilson; because, as the hon.
Member for West Cavan has said, there
are other officials who may be led by it
into similar employment.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I have
a strong opinion in these matters derived
from a long official career. I was in
hope that I should have received from
the noble Lord a more conciliatory
answer. I remember the case of the
high official in the National Debt Office
which was settled by the late Prime
Minister, the official having to resign
an employment which he held. I appeal
to the noble Lord to reconsider this
matter. The words which the noble
Lord has uttered are words which,
coming from him, are most dangerous
words, because not only has he excused,
but he has justified, the conduct of Sir
Rivers Wilson. As far as anything he
said is concerned, Sir Rivers Wilson
might have represented half-a-dozen
Mr. Biggar


Companies, or received any number of
appointments; and unless I receive a
more satisfactory answer from the noble
Lord it will be my duty to divide the
Committee.
LoRD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL:
I have not the slightest objection to the
hon. Gentleman dividing the Committee.
The hon. Gentleman's idea of a concilia-
tory reply is, that I should deprecate
the conduct of Sir Rivers Wilson. If
the hon. Gentleman supposes that I am
going to depreciate the characters of
Government officials for the purpose of
conciliating Gentlemen opposite he is
mistaken.
MR. P. McDONALD (Sligo, N.): I
wish to add my protest to that of the
hon. Gentleman (Sir George Campbell)
against the holding of private appoint-
ments by public officials, a practice which
tends to giving credit to many Companies
that are unsound, and to ruin the sub-
scribers. I say that this principle is a
wrong one altogether. It is the complaint
generally of the trading community
that they are injured by the extension of
so-called co-operative stores. Therefore,
I protest against the principle in ques-
tion, and if any hon. Member will second
me I am quite prepared to divide against
the Vote.
Mn. ARTHUR WILLIAMS (Gla-
morgan, S.): It is extremely unfortunate
that the noble Lord the Chancellor of
the Exchequer should adopt this line.
We all have, I am sure, great respect for
the official in question. I think the hon.
Gentleman who brought the subject for-
ward has discharged a very grave duty
in showing that an officiallike Sir Rivers
Wilson, a man in high position, is occu-
pying his time in the service of a private
Company. It is desirable that a fact of
that kind should be brought under the
notice of this House; because if this
is done by men in his position, and is
countenanced by Her Majesty's Govern-
ment, we shall find it done by minor
officials, and great inconvenience will
result. Therefore, I hope that it may
be recognized by the Government that
officials, either in high or minor posi-
tions in the Public Service, are not en-
titled to accept other employment.
MR. GEDGE (Stockport): The hon.
Member who has just spoken seems to
lay down the principle that a servant of
the Crown is obliged to give his whole
service to the Crown. Is it really to be


{COMMONS}


115 Supplty- C~ivil






{SEPTEMBER 10, 1886} Service Estimates.


the case that the servants of tle Crown
are to be slaves, who are not at liberty
to do anything else but their public duty;
and are they not to be allowed to occupy
their spare time? Is Mr. Matthew
Arnold, the Inspector of Schools, not to
be allowed spare time in which to write
those poems which we all admire ? No
one does his work better than Sir A.
Stephenson, the Solicitor to the Trea-
sury, and there is no reason why he
should not be a Director of the Economic
Life Office. But is he to be told he is
not to give his spare time to any occupa-
tion he thinks fit that is of an honour-
able character? If it is said that, be-
cause Sir Rivers Wilson is a member of
an old established Insurance Company,
some other gentlemen in the Service may
become members of Fishery Companies,
I reply, let the matter be dealt with when
it comes up. I say, let us hear no more
of this subject in connection with Sir
Rivers Wilson; but let us accept with
gratitude the services he has performed
with so much credit to the country.
MR. CAINE (Barrow-in-Furness): I
am quite sure, from my experience in
these matters, that no one can be a
Director of the Alliance Insurance Com-
pany without giving some hours a day
twice a week during the greater portion
of the year. Now, that would be given
at a time when a public servant ought to
be in his office. In this way, the services
of Sir Rivers Wilson would be required
just at the middle of the day, when we
should expect to find him in his place.
Weknow, of course, thathe would not take
any appointment that was not conform-
able with the discharge of his duty; but
a principle is involved in this matter,
and I should like to know whether the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would ap-
prove of the Secretary to the Admiralty
becoming Director of a shipbuilding firm
on the Thames? The question of the
employment of public servants as Direc-
tors of Companies is a very important
one, and I trust that the hon. Gentleman
the Member for Kirkcaldy will divide
the Committee upon it.
Mn. HOWELL (BethnalGreen, N.E.):
I protest against the Chancellor of the
Exchequer calling in question the con-
duct of those who object to servants of
the Crown undertaking private business
when they ought to be devoting their
time to the public business for which
they are paid. The position we take up


is one of principle; the question has
been raised long enough; and all I can
say is, that unless the Chancellor of the
Exchequer can give us some idea that
the Government will take it into con-
sideration, we, on this side of the House,
shall do our best to force the hand of
the Government upon the question. The
practice has been complained of over
and over again. The hon. Gentleman
who has just spoken (Mr. Caine) has
referred to a matter which comes home
rather closely-namely, that of a man
being associated with private under-
takings similar to that for which he is
paid by the Government. It seems to
me that a public servant ought to devote
his whole time to the work for which
the country pay him; and I think it
would be of greater advantage to the
country if Mr. Matthew Arnold were to
devote more time to the work for which
he is paid. I altogether dissent from the
principle that a man in the Public Ser-
vice should be allowed to devote any
portion of the time for which he is paid
to other employment.
MR. BIGGAR: I believe that hon.
Members who oppose this Vote will not
take any exception to the particular In-
surance Company with which Sir Rivers
Wilson is connected. Butlprotestagainst
the argument of the hon.Gentleman oppo-
site (Mr. Gedge), who said that we ought
not always to criticize the action of Go-
vernment officials when they become
members of what I may call shady
Companies, or when they are deficient in
the duty which they owe to the State.
There are public Companies which are
presumably solvent, and beyond criticism
possibly; but that is not the question.
I think we ought to go on the general
principle, and consider whether or not
these gentlemen should be allowed to
become directors of trading Companies,
and, at the same time, public servants.
First of all, it appears that these gentle-
men give, on several days a week, some
hours to the work of the Insurance Com-
pany, and ignore their public duty.
[" No, no !"] Well, it seems to be so.
And, in the next place, as in the case of
Mr. Matthew Arnold, we find that poems
are written in business time. There is
the fact to be considered that a man may
write good or bad poetry, and it does
not much matter; but when a public
servant becomes a member of an Insur-
ance Company, a great many people may


117 Supply/- Civuil







Service Estimates. 120


suffer by the fact that his name has been
lent to an unsound concern. It is a much
more dangerous thing for a public ser-
vant to become a Director of a Company
than it is for him to write poems, or
occupy his time with similar work. I
hope the hon. Gentleman will divide the
Committee on this question, in order to
show that this House requires that
public servants should give their whole
time to the performance of their duties,
and have nothing to do with business
speculations.
SmI GEORGE CAMPBELL: I wish
to say one word of protest against the
doctrine laid down by the hon. Gentleman
below the Gangwayopposite (Mr. Gedge)
-that a public servant is only bound to
give a modicum of his time to the Public
Service. I think that is a most dangerous
doctrine, for this reason especially- that
the money which he receives as salary is
a fixed quantity, and that which he makes
from his other position is a variable
quantity; and, therefore, as the means of
increasing it, he is likely to devote more
time to the latter than to his public
duties. I have many years of official
experience; and I think the doctrine pro-
pounded by the hon. Member for Stock-
port, with the sanction of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, is most dangerous.
.M. HARRIS (Galway, E.): There
are many grave evils connected with the
practice of public men becoming mem-
bers and Directors of public Companies.
Had it not been for the fact that the
late Mr. Sadlier was a Lord of the Trea-
sury, he would not have been able to
swindle the public to the enormous ex-
tent that he did. I see no reason why
we should consider public officials as
any better than other people, but rather
the other way, as being less occupied.
I have been in their society, and am
able to speak with some knowledge in
this matter. I think the question under
discussion is one of much importance in
the interest of the people; and if the
hon. Gentleman goes to a division I
shall certainly vote with him.
MR. A. BLANE (Armagh, S.): I do
not think that this Committee would act
justly if they did not apply to the heads
of Departments the same rule as they
apply to subordinates. It is of no use
saying, as the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer has said in effect, that because a
man is respectable he should be allowed
to do what other people are not allowed
Mr. Biggar


to do. I protest against that doctrine,
and shall therefore vote for the Amend-
ment of the hon. Gentleman the Member
for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell).
Question put.
The Committee divided:-Ayes 73;
Noes 139 : Majority 66. (Div List,
No. 20.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
(7.) Motion made, and Question pro-
posed,
"That a sum, not exceeding 25,303, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum
necessary to defray the Charge which will come
in course of payment during the year ending
on the 31st day of March 1887, connected
with the Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks
Act."
MR. MOLLOY (King's Co., Birr):
I do not wish to discuss this Vote in
any sense; but I desire to put a ques-
tion to the Government upon it. I
should like to know whether it would
not be possible to have an index of
foreign patents prepared for reference
in our Library? Such an index would
be of the greatest value. Another sug-
gestion I would make-and it is one
which I made on a former occasion-
is that a museum of patent models should
be established in England similar to
those which are to be found in almost
every other country of the world.
THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD
or TRADE (Baron HENRY DE WORMS)
(Liverpool, East Toxteth): In reply to
the hon. Member I have to say that the
index he refers to is being proceeded
with, and that I trust it will be com-
pleted in a very short time. The other
suggestion the hon. Member makes is a
very good one, and will receive favour-
able consideration.
MR. P. McDONALD (Sligo, N.): I
wish to call the attention of the Com-
mittee to a very great want existing in
this Kingdom, and I would trouble hon.
Members with a few words of explana-
tion thereupon. I would contrast the
American trade mark system, and some
portions of the Continental system, with
our own. In America, I believe, the
system is that the trade mark, when
submitted to the Registry Department,
is not recorded until it is properly and
duly examined; and when it is found to
clash with an existing trade mark it is
refused admission on the index. The
same thing applies, and perhaps still
more strongly, in the matter of patents.


{COMH~ONSI


119 suppiply-ci~vil






{SEPTEMBER 10, 1886} Service E8timates.


A different system exists in England.
I believe, as far as I am aware, that
any person can bring forward a patent
or trade mark, present it to the Depart-
ment, and have it indexed, without
taking into consideration whether or
not it clashes with any pre-existing
patent or trade mark; and the conse-
quence of that system is that the trader
who has a pre-existing patent or trade
mark is put in a position of being
obliged to bring an action at law against
the subsequent patentee, or person re-
gistering, to defend his right. The
result is that long and tedious law suits
occur, often to the serious detriment,
and even to the ruin, of one or other of
the parties. We have in this country
frequent instances of the unsatisfactory
result of this system; and we had in
Ireland, quite recently, a case in point
which accentuates the necessity of having
some change in the law. I would, there-
fore, beg to draw the attention of the
noble Lord the President of the Board
of Trade (Lord Stanley of Preston) to
the necessity of introducing an examina-
tion system combined with the indexing,
and of ordering that the indexing alone
shall not be sufficient. He should have
an examination system combined with
the present process, so that immediately
a person presented an invention clashing
with one already registered, it would be
rejected, and the party presenting it
told that he had no right to any protec-
tion in regard to it. I beg to call the
attention of the Department to this
question, as I believe the system I pro-
pose would tend greatly to the advan-
tage of the trading interests of the
country. It would be a reform which I
believe to be very urgently called for.
Mn. TOMLINSON (Preston): It is a
matter for regret that hon. Gentlemen
should address themselves to subjects
with which they do not appear to have
made themselves fully acquainted. Those
who know anything about trade marks
are aware that they cannot be admitted
on the register without previous exami-
nation.
Mr. P. MoDONALD: I have confident
personal knowledge to the contrary.
Mn. TOMLINSON: This is not the
time to go deeply into the question of
the laws relating to patents and trade
marks. The hon. Gentleman seemed to
confine his observations to trade marks;
and I wish to point out that the law, as


established by the existing Acts, pre-
vents two trade marks of a similar de-
sign being registered with respect to the
same class of goods.
MR. M. J. KENNY (Tyrone,Mid): On
a point of detail, I should like to know
how it is that there are two items in the
Vote relating to indexing ? How can
this double charge be made for the same
thing; and will the hon. Gentleman op-
posite (Baron Henry De Worms) ex-
plain what is the meaning of this item
of 4,000, which is a considerable in-
crease upon the charge for last year ?
MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool,
Scotland): I am sorry that the hon.
Member for Preston (Mr. Tomlinson)
should have thought it right to say what
he did to my hon. Friend sitting near
me (Mr. P. McDonald). He says my
hon. Friend addressed himself to a sub-
ject of which he knows nothing. Well,
I have sat with the hon. Gentleman op-
posite (Mr. Tomlinson) for four years in
this House, and I must say that during
the whole of that period the hon. Mem-
ber has never seemed to me to know
anything, except how to block a Bill,
and how to fill up those interstices in
debates which talkers against time know
so well how to avail themselves of.
[" Oh, oh! "] In reply to the interrup-
tion of hon. Members, I would point out
that I myself never talk against time.
My hon. Friend says he has had ex-
perience of trade marks being granted
without proper investigation; and I
would recommend to the hon. Gentle-
man, the champion blocker, this import-
ant fact for his consideration-that, at
the present moment, the noble Lord the
President of the Board of Trade (Lord
Stanley of Preston) is engaged in a con-
sideration of a Bill for re-arranging the
whole of the law of trade marks, and a
Bill is to be brought in next year. If
trade marks are in the happy condition
the hon. Member (Mr. Tomlinson) sup-
poses them to be in, there would be no
occasion whatever for the introduction
of the Bill the noble Lord is engaged
upon.
MR. TUITE (Westmeath, N.): I be-
lieve the present cost of obtaining a
patent is too high, and that it operates
very harshly against the working class
of this country. The total cost is much
more in England than in any other
country. I would ask the Government
to do what they can to reduce the cost,


121 spl-ii







Service Estimates. 124


so as to enable our intelligent artizans
and labouring classes to patent their
inventions.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir
RICHARD WEBSTER) (Isle of Wight):
Perhaps it would be convenient that I
should say a word or two at this point
on the three questions which have been
raised. First, as to the examination of
patents and trade marks. Perhaps I
ought to point out to hon. Members
that the question of the examination of
patents and the question of the exami-
nation of trade marks are distinct. As
to the examination into the validity of
letters patent before a patent is granted,
I need not remind the House that that
is a subject which has occupied the
minds of those who have studied the
Patent Law for the past 15 or 20 years.
Rightly or wrongly it has been con-
sidered neither possible nor desirable,
in the interest of inventors, to attempt
to make examinations as to novelty.
The whole matter was carefully con-
sidered prior to the passing of the Act of
Parliament of 1883. I must remind the
Committee that the matter is dealt with
in Section 7 of the Act, under which
there is an examination and report as to
the nature of an invention ; and if the ap-
plication, specification, or drawings have
not been prepared in the prescribed
manner, or if the title does not suffi-
ciently describe the subject-matter of
the invention, the application may be
refused. That, the Committee will see,
is an examination into what I may call
the validity of the patent, to find whe-
ther, on the face of it, the subject-
matter has been properly described.
Then I would remind the Committee
that when there is an opposition the
matter is governed by Section 11, which
provides that there may be such opposi-
tion on the ground that the applicant
has obtained the invention from the op-
ponent, or from the person who is his
legal representative, or on the ground
that the invention has been patented
in this country on an application of
prior date. The Committee will observe
that, the subject-matter being advertised
in the case of important inventions, it is
pretty well known whether or not any
important patent intrudes upon the
rights of prior patentees. Where the
owner of a previous patent opposes it,
it rests with the Law Officer to decide
whether or not a patent is to be granted.
Mr. Tuite


The suggestion of the hon. Member op-
posite would be that, in the interest of
every inventor, there should be an exa-
mination as to the validity of every
patent, to see whether or not the patent
should go on. The subject has been
most carefully considered, and those who
have studied the working of the Patent
Law have come to the conclusion that
unless such an examination were tho-
rough, so that the State could guaran-
tee the validity of the patent, it would
be of no real value to the patentee. I
do not wish to repeat the names of
the eminent men who have expressed
opinions upon this matter. Some of
them are no longer with us, though
others, I am happy to say, are still
living. Sir William Siemens, who came
to this country for the sake of the Patent
Laws, having started originally with the
idea that an examination would be de-
sirable, at last came round to the oppo-
site view, and sat on a Committee to
consider this question, which reported
that it was not desirable that there
should be such examination. The cost
of an efficient examination would be
very great indeed; and the desire, of
course, is to reduce the cost to inventors
of obtaining patents. I do not think
that anyone who is conversant with the
daily working of the Patent Office, and
of the Patent Laws, will be of opinion,
especially now that there are much
larger powers of amendment than before
the passing of the last Patent Act, that
it would be desirable, in the interests of
the patentees, to attempt a system of
examination. I do not know that I
need say anything further on that ques-
tion. With regard to the cost of index-
ing, I may be allowed to tell the Com-
mittee-though it is scarcely within my
province, but as I happen to have had
the matter brought prominently under
my notice I may be permitted to say a
word or two with regard to it-I may
be allowed to tell the Committee that
the main cost of the increase of index-
ing is the increase of work thrown on
the officials of the Patent Office. It has
been already pointed out that the matter
of indexing is of one great importance to
patentees, and especially to those who are
bringing out patents for improvements.
It would be astonishing to Members, on
inquiring into this subject, to find how
frequently it happens that inventors,
who think they have hit upon a per-


123 Xsipply- Civil


{COMMONS}






Service Estimates. 126


fectly original idea, find on making in-
vestigation that the same thing has been
invented before. Indexing is a most
difficult process; and, owing to the large
increase which has taken place in the
number of patents since the passing of
the last Act, it has been necessary to
incur great expense in the matter. But
a large increase has taken place on the
other side of the account. There is a
countervailing balance; therefore, the
patentees who pay the fees have a right
to be considered. With regard to the
cost of obtaining the patent being too
high, that was a matter which was con-
sidered prior to 1883. The initial cost
was largely reduced. In the first in-
stance it is only 4-1 on application
for a provisional protection, and 3 on
completion of specification. There is no
further payment until the end of four
years. Practically speaking, therefore,
every useful invention can get protection
for four years for 4; and there are few
inventions indeed which cannot be de-
veloped, and tried, and tested in four
years. And when a man has got an in-
vention which is so useful that it is
worth while to obtain a monopoly for
it, then, at the end of four years, he
can continue the patent. The sum
charged is not at present considered too
large; but whether a reduction is pos-
sible and desirable, I am sure those who
have control over the Patent Office will
be very glad to consider. So far as the
interests of working men inventors are
concerned, I do not think there have
been anything like the complaints as to
the high cost of patents since the pass-
ing of the Patent Act that there were
previously. Certainly, the endeavour
of those who have had the framing of
the laws has been to put it in the power
of those working men who have been
fortunate enough to hit upon an original
invention to obtain a patent for it on
the most moderate terms, and then to
secure their right at the least possible
expense. I am not aware that any other
question has been raised upon which I
can afford the Committee any informa-
tion; but I think I can say that, as to
the examination of trade marks, the
Comptroller does not allow two trade
marks of a similar kind to be put on
the same class of goods. All these
matters have been lately under the con-
sideration of the Patent Office and the
Board of Trade; and I do not think there


is any question of weight which has
been overlooked, and on which every
effort has not been made to make the
Act work as successfully as possible.
MR. P. McDONALD: My remarks
were in the direction of improving the
law as to trade marks. I did not intend
so much to address myself in the course
of my observations to the question of
patents, inasmuch as I am more con-
cerned in the one than the other. I am
pleased to find that the observations of
the hon. and learned Gentleman have
fully borne out the necessity that exists
for effecting some change in the law;
and that, indirectly, has been a com-
plete answer to the hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Tomlinson), who has earned the
reputation of champion blocker of the
House.
MR. CONWAY (Leitrim, N.): It
must be satisfactory to hon. Members
to hear from the hon. and learned Gen-
tleman the Attorney General that there
is likely soon to be a consolidated index
of patents. As to cost, I would point
out that the total income from patents is
86,980, whilst the cost of the Depart-
ment is 53,000, leaving a profit of
34,000. It appears to me, therefore,
that having 34,000 at their command
they may very well see their way to
reducing the charge, and to extending
the initial period of protection. I think
the Department ought to take that mat-
ter into consideration. Looking at the
Annual Report of the Patent Office,
there appears to me to be one feature
of it that demands the attention of the
House. Here is a paragraph stating
that during the year certain hardships
arose under Sections 8 and 9 of the Act,
owing to applicants not having complied
with the statutory requirements; and as
to the production of an amending Act,
enabling the Comptroller to allow suffi-
cient time for the completing of specifi-
cations. The time allowed is too short,
and it will, no doubt, be wise to make
arrangements for meeting the complaints
of inventors. We all know how great
are the complaints of inventors. We
hear tell of their exceedingly sensitive
natures; and one can well understand
the feelings of anxiety of a man who
submits a specification to the Patent
Office, and the worry and the care
which he must endure, owing to the
over-methodical and circumlocutory sys-
tem adopted by the authorities. The


125 upyai


ISErTEMBER 10, 18861






Service Estimates. 128


feelings of inventors ought to be con-
sidered by those engaged in the Depart-
ments; and I trust that this paragraph
in the Report to which I call attention
will meet with consideration from the
Attorney General, and that the time for
putting in specifications after applica-
tion has been made will be extended.
MR. HARRIS (Galway, E.): I should
like to ask whether facilities could not
be given to working men to enable them
to take out a patent without the inter-
vention of a lawyer ? I myself thought
I had an invention worth patenting; but
I found that I should have to go to a
lawyer, and give him something like
30 to begin with, in order to take out
a patent. I thought that too much to
pay for an experiment. I, therefore, ask
whether arrangements could not be made
to enable a working man to go to the
office and take out his patent without
the intervention of a lawyer, or the
trouble and annoyance of having to
obtain legal assistance ?
DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid): I
was led to understand by the hon. and
learned Gentleman on the Treasury
Bench (the Attorney General) that since
this new Patent Law had been brought
in the number of applicants for the
protection afforded by Letters Patent
had greatly increased. Well, Sir, in
looking into the statistics, we find that
the number of applicants has increased,
but that the number of patents which
have been taken out have not increased;
on the contrary, that there have been
more heart-burnings over this question
than over many others. [" Oh, oh !"]
Yes, than over many others that arise
here every night. [Laughter.] Hon.
Gentlemen opposite may laugh, but per-
haps they are not inventors. Well,
Sir, there is one point to be noticed in
connection with this Estimate, and that
is that there is a considerable expendi-
ture of public money involved for which
there is no return whatsoever-I mean
the amount paid in salaries to the exa-
mining staff. They receive somewhere
between 14,000 and 15,000 a-year,
and that is altogether exclusive of the
payment of writers and others in the
same Department. There is no propor-
tion between the numbers of these offi-
/ cials and the numbers of the applications.
The number of applications shows that
the amount paid in this Department is
not far from 1 for each application,
Sir. Conway


which is actually the initial fee which
has to be paid by those who apply for
patents. The initial fee may, therefore,
be said to be spent in examination
and preliminary specification. We may
thus put aside this 1 per application
as spent without advantage to anyone
concerned. The Committee which has
been appointed to deal with this ques-
tion has shown that the method is of
practical advantage. Though it has
given general satisfaction in its work-
ing, still it is a fact that the reduction
of fees which was made was mainly
clamoured for on the initial stage. If
the number of patents applied for is
to be taken as a criterion of the value
of the Act there can be no question
about that value, for its success in this
respect exceeded the most sanguine an-
ticipation of its promoters. In the first
year the number of applications was no
less than three times what it had been
in the preceding year. In the year just
passed there were only 16,101; though
in the first year there were 17,110.
That is a falling-off of 1,000; and it is
to be accounted for by the fact that
there was an accumulation just before
the Act was passed. Of course, when a
reform is made in a Department of this
sort, naturally enough the applicants
will wish to take advantage of it, and
will wait until it is completed. The
applicants, therefore, waited until the
reform took place, when they were able
to take practical advantage of it. It
will be highly satisfactory if the quality
of this enormous number of inventions
could be readily tested. Unfortunately,
we are told that that is not possible.
However, there is a rough test afforded,
and that is by the number of applica-
tions that are allowed to lapse at the
first stage. With respect to this number
of applications, there are a few statistics
which have been furnished that I should
like hon. Members to learn. The Patent
Office has, with a delightful amount of
candour, lately published a. full list of
applicants for patents since the year
1884, and which have become void in
consequence of complete specifications
not having been lodged within ten
months of the date of application. This
list numbers 7,013, and the addition of
applications voided for other reasons
brings the total to 7,064, or 41 per cent
of all the applications made in a year.
Though there have been such a con-


{COMMONS}


127 SUPPp5Iy-avil






{SEPTEMBER 10, 1886} Service Estimates.


siderable number of applications made
in order to take advantage of the new
Patent Law, still, practically speaking,
though the applications have been made,
you must take into account the number
of people who have lost their patents
by letting the whole thing lapse. The
number of patents voided under the old
law was 35 per cent; and, putting the
two figures side by side, we have the
result that there has been a greater per-
centage during the period to which I
have drawn special attention. It is a
little surprising that the percentage
should be increased, and that the fee of
1 should yield no less than three-fifths
of all the applications for patents-
that is to say, that the inventors of two-
fifths of the inventions for which patents
are applied do not consider them worth
3 a-piece nine months after they have
taken the first steps to protect them.
This is an important point, and pos-
sibly the hon. and learned Gentleman
opposite will deem it worthy of his con-
sideration. It used to be said, under
the former law, that it was the heavy
fees and the initial stages which killed
the patents; but that argument cannot
be advanced now. It would not be true.
It is admitted that the taking out of
patents is not now confined to such im-
portant matters as it was in days gone
by-in fact, that many smaller minor
inventions are now worth patenting
which formerly were not deemed of
sufficient value-in consequence of the
lowering of the charges. We cannot
walk down any street of importance
without seeing many shops in which are
exposed for sale small patented articles
which formerly you could not have ob-
tained. ["Order!"] Iwas talking about
the examiners and the amount paid to
them, and from that we come to argue
on the price of patents ; and it is clearly
discernible, even to the most superficial
inquirer, that owing to the lowering
of the price of patents many minor
articles are patented. A man will now-
adays take out a patent for a cork-screw,
though, in days gone by, he would not
have thought it worth his while to do so.
We now find patents taken out not for
one, but for dozens of minor articles,
such as cork-screws. It is worthy of
consideration how you can best give in-
formation of all these small patents to
future inventors. It is important that
we should have an index; because, if


the patents were destroyed, we should
have no record of what had been pre-
viously detected. Besides, an index is
necessary, so that future inventors may
be able to see what has already been
patented, and may be able to guard
themselves from the risk of having their
patents interfered with by the owner of
an abandoned application, and that the
owners of the abandoned applications
themselves may be able to relinquish
their first claims, and substitute fresh
applications based on a fuller knowledge
of the machine or implement they may
have invented. It would also be well
worth considering whether the destruc-
tion of all provisional specifications would
not in itself be an advantage. In that
case, the examining staff would not have
to be relied upon to see that an inventor
did not introduce fresh matter into his
specification, which he had probably ob-
tained from a rival. Of course, the
examination of applications has suc-
ceeded to a degree, and it certainly is a
matter which should be inquired into.
Inventors themselves, especially those of
the poorer class, like it, because they
believe that, after their specification has
once been taken into consideration, it is
safe from subsequent attack, and that,
whether or not, they have secured an
indefeasible right to their inventions.
They have, at all events, obtained a
right not to be impugned except by
legal proceedings. [Cries of" Divide! "
and "Question!"] If I have not ex-
plained myself intelligently, I will en-
deavour to do so at greater length.
What I wanted to show was that the
examining staff receive a large amount
of money, and that, unfortunately, the
benefit the people who take out in-
ventions derive from the operations
of these gentlemen is not altogether
commensurate to this amount of
money. The results are not alto-
gether satisfactory. The existence of
the examination has induced a great
many inventors to rely upon them-
selves and upon the officials for the
proper drafting of their specifications,
without the intervention of a patent
agent. That is a very great mis-
take, and is to be deprecated as
likely to work to the disadvantage of
persons who may wish to obtain patents
in the future. I hope this matter will
receive the deliberate and mature con-
sideration of the noble Lord the Presi-


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129 Spl-ii




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