• TABLE OF CONTENTS
HIDE
 Title Page
 Table of Contents
 Lords and Commons
 April 1886
 May 1886
 Index to Hansard's parliamentary...














Title: Hansard's parliamentary debates
ALL VOLUMES CITATION PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00072012/00004
 Material Information
Title: Hansard's parliamentary debates
Physical Description: 361 v. : ; 23-25 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Great Britain -- Parliament
Hansard, T. C ( Thomas Curson ), 1776-1833
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: S.l
Manufacturer: T.C. Hansard
Publication Date: 1829-1891
 Subjects
Subject: Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Great Britain -- 19th century   ( lcsh )
 Notes
Dates or Sequential Designation: New ser., v. 21 (Mar./June 1829)-v. 25 (June/July 1830); 3rd ser., v. 1 (Oct./Dec. 1830)-v. 356 (July/Aug. 1891).
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00072012
Volume ID: VID00004
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 07655885
lccn - sn 85062630
 Related Items
Preceded by: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Succeeded by: Parliamentary debates (1892-1908)

Table of Contents
    Title Page
        Title Page 1
        Title Page 2
    Table of Contents
        Table of Contents 1
        Table of Contents 2
        Table of Contents 3
        Table of Contents 4
        Table of Contents 5
        Table of Contents 6
        Table of Contents 7
        Table of Contents 8
        Table of Contents 9
        Table of Contents 10
        Table of Contents 11
        Table of Contents 12
        Table of Contents 13
        Table of Contents 14
        Table of Contents 15
        Table of Contents 16
        Table of Contents 17
        Table of Contents 18
        Table of Contents 19
        Table of Contents 20
        Table of Contents 21
        Table of Contents 22
        Table of Contents 23
        Table of Contents 24
        Table of Contents 25
        Table of Contents 26
        Table of Contents 27
        Table of Contents 28
        Table of Contents 29
        Table of Contents 30
        Table of Contents 31
        Table of Contents 32
        Table of Contents 33
        Table of Contents 34
        Table of Contents 35
    Lords and Commons
        Unnumbered ( 38 )
    April 1886
        Page 1-2
        Monday, April 19 - House of Commons
            Page 1-2
            Page 3-4
            Page 5-6
            Page 7-8
            Page 9-10
            Page 11-12
            Page 13-14
            Page 15-16
            Page 17-18
            Page 19-20
            Page 21-22
            Page 23-24
            Page 25-26
            Page 27-28
            Page 29-30
            Page 31-32
            Page 33-34
            Page 35-36
            Page 37-38
            Page 39-40
            Page 41-42
            Page 43-44
            Page 45-46
            Page 47-48
            Page 49-50
            Page 51-52
            Page 53-54
            Page 55-56
            Page 57-58
            Page 59-60
            Page 61-62
            Page 63-64
            Page 65-66
            Page 67-68
            Page 69-70
            Page 71-72
            Page 73-74
            Page 75-76
            Page 77-78
            Page 79-80
            Page 81-82
            Page 83-84
            Page 85-86
            Page 87-88
            Page 89-90
            Page 91-92
            Page 93-94
            Page 95-96
            Page 97-98
            Page 99-100
            Page 101-102
            Page 103-104
            Page 105-106
            Page 107-108
            Page 109-110
            Page 111-112
            Page 113-114
            Page 115-116
            Page 117-118
            Page 119-120
            Page 121-122
            Page 123-124
            Page 125-126
            Page 127-128
            Page 129-130
            Page 131-132
            Page 133-134
            Page 135-136
            Page 137-138
            Page 139-140
            Page 141-142
            Page 143-144
            Page 145-146
            Page 147-148
    May 1886
        Page 149-150
        Monday, May 3 - House of Commons
            Page 149-150
            Page 151-152
            Page 153-154
            Page 155-156
            Page 157-158
            Page 159-160
            Page 161-162
            Page 163-164
            Page 165-166
            Page 167-168
            Page 169-170
            Page 171-172
            Page 173-174
            Page 175-176
            Page 177-178
            Page 179-180
            Page 181-182
            Page 183-184
            Page 185-186
            Page 187-188
            Page 189-190
            Page 191-192
            Page 193-194
            Page 195-196
            Page 197-198
            Page 199-200
            Page 201-202
            Page 203-204
            Page 205-206
            Page 207-208
            Page 209-210
            Page 211-212
            Page 213-214
            Page 215-216
            Page 217-218
            Page 219-220
            Page 221-222
            Page 223-224
            Page 225-226
            Page 227-228
            Page 229-230
            Page 231-232
            Page 233-234
            Page 235-236
            Page 237-238
            Page 239-240
            Page 241-242
            Page 243-244
            Page 245-246
            Page 247-248
            Page 249-250
            Page 251-252
            Page 253-254
            Page 255-256
            Page 257-258
            Page 259-260
            Page 261-262
            Page 263-264
        Tuesday, May 4 - House of Commons
            Page 265-266
            Page 267-268
            Page 269-270
            Page 271-272
            Page 273-274
            Page 275-276
            Page 277-278
            Page 279-280
            Page 281-282
            Page 283-284
            Page 285-286
            Page 287-288
            Page 289-290
            Page 291-292
            Page 293-294
            Page 295-296
            Page 297-298
            Page 299-300
            Page 301-302
            Page 303-304
            Page 305-306
            Page 307-308
            Page 309-310
            Page 311-312
            Page 313-314
            Page 315-316
            Page 317-318
        Wednesday, May 5 - House of Commons
            Page 319-320
            Page 321-322
            Page 323-324
            Page 325-326
            Page 327-328
            Page 329-330
            Page 331-332
            Page 333-334
            Page 335-336
            Page 337-338
            Page 339-340
            Page 341-342
            Page 343-344
            Page 345-346
            Page 347-348
            Page 349-350
            Page 351-352
            Page 353-354
        Thursday, May 6 - House of Lords
            Page 355-356
            Page 357-358
            Page 359-360
            Page 361-362
            Page 363-364
            Page 365-366
            Page 367-368
            Page 369-370
            Page 371-372
            Page 373-374
            Page 375-376
            Page 377-378
            Page 379-380
            Page 381-382
            Page 383-384
            Page 385-386
            Page 387-388
            Page 389-390
            Page 391-392
            Page 393-394
            Page 395-396
            Page 397-398
            Page 399-400
            Page 401-402
            Page 403-404
            Page 405-406
            Page 407-408
            Page 409-410
            Page 411-412
            Page 413-414
            Page 415-416
            Page 417-418
            Page 419-420
            Page 421-422
            Page 423-424
            Page 425-426
            Page 427-428
            Page 429-430
            Page 431-432
            Page 433-434
            Page 435-436
            Page 437-438
            Page 439-440
            Page 441-442
            Page 443-444
            Page 445-446
            Page 447-448
            Page 449-450
            Page 451-452
            Page 453-454
            Page 455-456
            Page 457-458
            Page 459-460
            Page 461-462
            Page 463-464
            Page 465-466
            Page 467-468
            Page 469-470
            Page 471-472
            Page 473-474
            Page 475-476
            Page 477-478
            Page 479-480
            Page 481-482
            Page 483-484
            Page 485-486
            Page 487-488
        Friday, May 7 - House of Lords
            Page 489-490
            Page 491-492
            Page 493-494
            Page 495-496
            Page 497-498
            Page 499-500
            Page 501-502
            Page 503-504
            Page 505-506
            Page 507-508
            Page 509-510
            Page 511-512
            Page 513-514
            Page 515-516
            Page 517-518
            Page 519-520
            Page 521-522
            Page 523-524
            Page 525-526
            Page 527-528
            Page 529-530
            Page 531-532
            Page 533-534
            Page 535-536
            Page 537-538
            Page 539-540
            Page 541-542
            Page 543-544
        Monday, May 10 - House of Lords
            Page 545-546
            Page 547-548
            Page 549-550
            Page 551-552
            Page 553-554
            Page 555-556
            Page 557-558
            Page 559-560
            Page 561-562
            Page 563-564
            Page 565-566
            Page 567-568
            Page 569-570
            Page 571-572
            Page 573-574
            Page 575-576
            Page 577-578
            Page 579-580
            Page 581-582
            Page 583-584
            Page 585-586
            Page 587-588
            Page 589-590
            Page 591-592
            Page 593-594
            Page 595-596
            Page 597-598
            Page 599-600
            Page 601-602
            Page 603-604
            Page 605-606
            Page 607-608
            Page 609-610
            Page 611-612
            Page 613-614
            Page 615-616
            Page 617-618
            Page 619-620
            Page 621-622
            Page 623-624
            Page 625-626
            Page 627-628
            Page 629-630
            Page 631-632
            Page 633-634
            Page 635-636
            Page 637-638
            Page 639-640
            Page 641-642
            Page 643-644
            Page 645-646
            Page 647-648
            Page 649-650
            Page 651-652
            Page 653-654
            Page 655-656
            Page 657-658
            Page 659-660
            Page 661-662
            Page 663-664
            Page 665-666
            Page 667-668
            Page 669-670
            Page 671-672
            Page 673-674
            Page 675-676
            Page 677-678
            Page 679-680
            Page 681-682
            Page 683-684
            Page 685-686
            Page 687-688
            Page 689-690
        Tuesday, May 11 - House of Lords
            Page 691-692
            Page 693-694
            Page 695-696
            Page 697-698
            Page 699-700
            Page 701-702
            Page 703-704
            Page 705-706
            Page 707-708
            Page 709-710
            Page 711-712
            Page 713-714
            Page 715-716
            Page 717-718
            Page 719-720
            Page 721-722
            Page 723-724
            Page 725-726
            Page 727-728
            Page 729-730
            Page 731-732
            Page 733-734
            Page 735-736
            Page 737-738
            Page 739-740
            Page 741-742
            Page 743-744
            Page 745-746
            Page 747-748
            Page 749-750
            Page 751-752
            Page 753-754
            Page 755-756
            Page 757-758
            Page 759-760
            Page 761-762
            Page 763-764
            Page 765-766
            Page 767-768
            Page 769-770
            Page 771-772
            Page 773-774
            Page 775-776
            Page 777-778
            Page 779-780
            Page 781-782
            Page 783-784
            Page 785-786
            Page 787-788
            Page 789-790
            Page 791-792
            Page 793-794
            Page 795-796
            Page 797-798
            Page 799-800
            Page 801-802
            Page 803-804
            Page 805-806
            Page 807-808
            Page 809-810
            Page 811-812
            Page 813-814
            Page 815-816
            Page 817-818
            Page 819-820
            Page 821-822
            Page 823-824
            Page 825-826
            Page 827-828
        Wednesday, May 12 - House of Commons
            Page 829-830
            Page 831-832
            Page 833-834
            Page 835-836
            Page 837-838
            Page 839-840
            Page 841-842
            Page 843-844
            Page 845-846
            Page 847-848
            Page 849-850
            Page 851-852
            Page 853-854
            Page 855-856
            Page 857-858
            Page 859-860
            Page 861-862
            Page 863-864
            Page 865-866
            Page 867-868
            Page 869-870
            Page 871-872
            Page 873-874
        Thursday, May 13 - House of Lords
            Page 875-876
            Page 877-878
            Page 879-880
            Page 881-882
            Page 883-884
            Page 885-886
            Page 887-888
            Page 889-890
            Page 891-892
            Page 893-894
            Page 895-896
            Page 897-898
            Page 899-900
            Page 901-902
            Page 903-904
            Page 905-906
            Page 907-908
            Page 909-910
            Page 911-912
            Page 913-914
            Page 915-916
            Page 917-918
            Page 919-920
            Page 921-922
            Page 923-924
            Page 925-926
            Page 927-928
            Page 929-930
            Page 931-932
            Page 933-934
            Page 935-936
            Page 937-938
            Page 939-940
            Page 941-942
            Page 943-944
            Page 945-946
            Page 947-948
            Page 949-950
            Page 951-952
            Page 953-954
            Page 955-956
            Page 957-958
            Page 959-960
            Page 961-962
            Page 963-964
            Page 965-966
            Page 967-968
            Page 969-970
            Page 971-972
            Page 973-974
            Page 975-976
            Page 977-978
            Page 979-980
            Page 981-982
            Page 983-984
            Page 985-986
            Page 987-988
            Page 989-990
            Page 991-992
            Page 993-994
            Page 995-996
            Page 997-998
            Page 999-1000
            Page 1001-1002
            Page 1003-1004
            Page 1005-1006
            Page 1007-1008
            Page 1009-1010
            Page 1011-1012
            Page 1013-1014
            Page 1015-1016
            Page 1017-1018
            Page 1019-1020
            Page 1021-1022
            Page 1023-1024
            Page 1025-1026
            Page 1027-1028
            Page 1029-1030
        Friday, May 14 - House of Lords
            Page 1031-1032
        Friday, May 14 - House of Commons
            Page 1031-1032
            Page 1033-1034
            Page 1035-1036
            Page 1037-1038
            Page 1039-1040
            Page 1041-1042
            Page 1043-1044
            Page 1045-1046
            Page 1047-1048
            Page 1049-1050
            Page 1051-1052
            Page 1053-1054
            Page 1055-1056
            Page 1057-1058
            Page 1059-1060
            Page 1061-1062
            Page 1063-1064
            Page 1065-1066
            Page 1067-1068
            Page 1069-1070
            Page 1071-1072
            Page 1073-1074
            Page 1075-1076
            Page 1077-1078
            Page 1079-1080
            Page 1081-1082
            Page 1083-1084
            Page 1085-1086
            Page 1087-1088
            Page 1089-1090
            Page 1091-1092
            Page 1093-1094
            Page 1095-1096
            Page 1097-1098
            Page 1099-1100
            Page 1101-1102
            Page 1103-1104
            Page 1105-1106
            Page 1107-1108
            Page 1109-1110
            Page 1111-1112
            Page 1113-1114
            Page 1115-1116
            Page 1117-1118
            Page 1119-1120
            Page 1121-1122
            Page 1123-1124
            Page 1125-1126
            Page 1127-1128
            Page 1129-1130
            Page 1131-1132
            Page 1133-1134
            Page 1135-1136
            Page 1137-1138
            Page 1139-1140
            Page 1141-1142
            Page 1143-1144
        Monday, May 17 - House of Lords
            Page 1145-1146
            Page 1147-1148
            Page 1149-1150
            Page 1151-1152
            Page 1153-1154
            Page 1155-1156
            Page 1157-1158
            Page 1159-1160
            Page 1161-1162
            Page 1163-1164
            Page 1165-1166
            Page 1167-1168
            Page 1169-1170
            Page 1171-1172
            Page 1173-1174
            Page 1175-1176
            Page 1177-1178
            Page 1179-1180
            Page 1181-1182
            Page 1183-1184
            Page 1185-1186
            Page 1187-1188
            Page 1189-1190
            Page 1191-1192
            Page 1193-1194
            Page 1195-1196
            Page 1197-1198
            Page 1199-1200
            Page 1201-1202
            Page 1203-1204
            Page 1205-1206
            Page 1207-1208
            Page 1209-1210
            Page 1211-1212
            Page 1213-1214
            Page 1215-1216
            Page 1217-1218
            Page 1219-1220
            Page 1221-1222
            Page 1223-1224
            Page 1225-1226
            Page 1227-1228
            Page 1229-1230
            Page 1231-1232
            Page 1233-1234
            Page 1235-1236
            Page 1237-1238
            Page 1239-1240
            Page 1241-1242
            Page 1243-1244
            Page 1245-1246
            Page 1247-1248
            Page 1249-1250
            Page 1251-1252
            Page 1253-1254
            Page 1255-1256
            Page 1257-1258
        Tuesday, May 18 - House of Lords
            Page 1259-1260
            Page 1261-1262
            Page 1263-1264
            Page 1265-1266
            Page 1267-1268
            Page 1269-1270
            Page 1271-1272
            Page 1273-1274
            Page 1275-1276
            Page 1277-1278
            Page 1279-1280
            Page 1281-1282
            Page 1283-1284
            Page 1285-1286
            Page 1287-1288
            Page 1289-1290
            Page 1291-1292
            Page 1293-1294
            Page 1295-1296
            Page 1297-1298
            Page 1299-1300
            Page 1301-1302
            Page 1303-1304
            Page 1305-1306
            Page 1307-1308
            Page 1309-1310
            Page 1311-1312
            Page 1313-1314
            Page 1315-1316
            Page 1317-1318
            Page 1319-1320
            Page 1321-1322
            Page 1323-1324
            Page 1325-1326
            Page 1327-1328
            Page 1329-1330
            Page 1331-1332
            Page 1333-1334
            Page 1335-1336
            Page 1337-1338
            Page 1339-1340
            Page 1341-1342
            Page 1343-1344
            Page 1345-1346
            Page 1347-1348
            Page 1349-1350
            Page 1351-1352
            Page 1353-1354
            Page 1355-1356
            Page 1357-1358
            Page 1359-1360
            Page 1361-1362
            Page 1363-1364
            Page 1365-1366
            Page 1367-1368
            Page 1369-1370
            Page 1371-1372
            Page 1373-1374
            Page 1375-1376
            Page 1377-1378
            Page 1379-1380
            Page 1381-1382
            Page 1383-1384
            Page 1385-1386
            Page 1387-1388
            Page 1389-1390
            Page 1391-1392
            Page 1393-1394
            Page 1395-1396
            Page 1397-1398
            Page 1399-1400
            Page 1401-1402
            Page 1403-1404
            Page 1405-1406
            Page 1407-1408
            Page 1409-1410
            Page 1411-1412
        Wednesday, May 19 - House of Commons
            Page 1413-1414
            Page 1415-1416
            Page 1417-1418
            Page 1419-1420
            Page 1421-1422
            Page 1423-1424
            Page 1425-1426
            Page 1427-1428
            Page 1429-1430
            Page 1431-1432
            Page 1433-1434
            Page 1435-1436
            Page 1437-1438
            Page 1439-1440
            Page 1441-1442
            Page 1443-1444
            Page 1445-1446
            Page 1447-1448
            Page 1449-1450
            Page 1451-1452
            Page 1453-1454
            Page 1455-1456
            Page 1457-1458
            Page 1459-1460
            Page 1461-1462
            Page 1463-1464
        Thursday, May 20 - House of Lords
            Page 1465-1466
            Page 1467-1468
            Page 1469-1470
            Page 1471-1472
            Page 1473-1474
            Page 1475-1476
            Page 1477-1478
            Page 1479-1480
            Page 1481-1482
            Page 1483-1484
            Page 1485-1486
            Page 1487-1488
            Page 1489-1490
            Page 1491-1492
            Page 1493-1494
            Page 1495-1496
            Page 1497-1498
            Page 1499-1500
            Page 1501-1502
            Page 1503-1504
            Page 1505-1506
            Page 1507-1508
            Page 1509-1510
            Page 1511-1512
            Page 1513-1514
            Page 1515-1516
            Page 1517-1518
            Page 1519-1520
            Page 1521-1522
            Page 1523-1524
            Page 1525-1526
            Page 1527-1528
            Page 1529-1530
            Page 1531-1532
            Page 1533-1534
            Page 1535-1536
            Page 1537-1538
            Page 1539-1540
            Page 1541-1542
            Page 1543-1544
            Page 1545-1546
            Page 1547-1548
            Page 1549-1550
            Page 1551-1552
            Page 1553-1554
            Page 1555-1556
            Page 1557-1558
            Page 1559-1560
            Page 1561-1562
            Page 1563-1564
            Page 1565-1566
            Page 1567-1568
            Page 1569-1570
            Page 1571-1572
            Page 1573-1574
            Page 1575-1576
            Page 1577-1578
            Page 1579-1580
            Page 1581-1582
            Page 1583-1584
            Page 1585-1586
            Page 1587-1588
            Page 1589-1590
            Page 1591-1592
            Page 1593-1594
            Page 1595-1596
            Page 1597-1598
            Page 1599-1600
            Page 1601-1602
            Page 1603-1604
            Page 1605-1606
            Page 1607-1608
            Page 1609-1610
            Page 1611-1612
            Page 1613-1614
            Page 1615-1616
            Page 1617-1618
            Page 1619-1620
            Page 1621-1622
            Page 1623-1624
            Page 1625-1626
            Page 1627-1628
            Page 1629-1630
            Page 1631-1632
            Page 1633-1634
        Friday, May 21 - House of Lords
            Page 1635-1636
            Page 1637-1638
            Page 1639-1640
            Page 1641-1642
            Page 1643-1644
            Page 1645-1646
            Page 1647-1648
            Page 1649-1650
            Page 1651-1652
            Page 1653-1654
            Page 1655-1656
            Page 1657-1658
            Page 1659-1660
            Page 1661-1662
            Page 1663-1664
            Page 1665-1666
            Page 1667-1668
            Page 1669-1670
            Page 1671-1672
            Page 1673-1674
            Page 1675-1676
            Page 1677-1678
            Page 1679-1680
            Page 1681-1682
            Page 1683-1684
            Page 1685-1686
            Page 1687-1688
            Page 1689-1690
            Page 1691-1692
            Page 1693-1694
            Page 1695-1696
            Page 1697-1698
            Page 1699-1700
            Page 1701-1702
            Page 1703-1704
            Page 1705-1706
            Page 1707-1708
            Page 1709-1710
            Page 1711-1712
            Page 1713-1714
            Page 1715-1716
            Page 1717-1718
            Page 1719-1720
            Page 1721-1722
            Page 1723-1724
            Page 1725-1726
            Page 1727-1728
            Page 1729-1730
            Page 1731-1732
            Page 1733-1734
            Page 1735-1736
            Page 1737-1738
            Page 1739-1740
            Page 1741-1742
            Page 1743-1744
            Page 1745-1746
            Page 1747-1748
            Page 1749-1750
            Page 1751-1752
            Page 1753-1754
            Page 1755-1756
            Page 1757-1758
            Page 1759-1760
            Page 1761-1762
            Page 1763-1764
            Page 1765-1766
            Page 1767-1768
            Page 1769-1770
            Page 1771-1772
            Page 1773-1774
            Page 1775-1776
            Page 1777-1778
            Page 1779-1780
            Page 1781-1782
            Page 1783-1784
            Page 1785-1786
            Page 1787-1788
            Page 1789-1790
            Page 1791-1792
        Monday, May 24 - House of Lords
            Page 1793-1794
            Page 1795-1796
            Page 1797-1798
            Page 1799-1800
            Page 1801-1802
            Page 1803-1804
            Page 1805-1806
            Page 1807-1808
            Page 1809-1810
            Page 1811-1812
            Page 1813-1814
            Page 1815-1816
            Page 1817-1818
            Page 1819-1820
            Page 1821-1822
            Page 1823-1824
            Page 1825-1826
            Page 1827-1828
            Page 1829-1830
            Page 1831-1832
            Page 1833-1834
            Page 1835-1836
            Page 1837-1838
            Page 1839-1840
            Page 1841-1842
            Page 1843-1844
            Page 1845-1846
            Page 1847-1848
            Page 1849-1850
            Page 1851-1852
            Page 1853-1854
            Page 1855-1856
            Page 1857-1858
            Page 1859-1860
            Page 1861-1862
            Page 1863-1864
            Page 1865-1866
            Page 1867-1868
            Page 1869-1870
            Page 1871-1872
            Page 1873-1874
            Page 1875-1876
            Page 1877-1878
            Page 1879-1880
            Page 1881-1882
            Page 1883-1884
            Page 1885-1886
            Page 1887-1888
            Page 1889-1890
            Page 1891-1892
            Page 1893-1894
            Page 1895-1896
            Page 1897-1898
            Page 1899-1900
            Page 1901-1902
            Page 1903-1904
            Page 1905-1906
            Page 1907-1908
            Page 1909-1910
            Page 1911-1912
            Page 1913-1914
            Page 1915-1916
            Page 1917-1918
            Page 1919-1920
            Page 1921-1922
            Page 1923-1924
            Page 1925-1926
            Page 1927-1928
            Page 1929-1930
            Page 1931-1932
            Page 1933-1934
            Page 1935-1936
            Page 1937-1938
            Page 1939-1940
            Page 1941-1942
            Page 1943-1944
            Page 1945-1946
            Page 1947-1948
            Page 1949-1950
            Page 1951-1952
            Page 1953-1954
            Page 1955-1956
            Page 1957-1958
            Page 1959-1960
            Page 1961-1962
            Page 1963-1964
            Page 1965-1966
            Page 1967-1968
            Page 1969-1970
            Page 1971-1972
            Page 1973-1974
            Page 1975-1976
    Index to Hansard's parliamentary debates, volume CCCV: Fourth volume of session 1886
        Page 1977-1978
        Page 1979-1980
        Page 1981-1982
        Page 1983-1984
        Page 1985-1986
        Page 1987-1988
        Page 1989-1990
        Page 1991-1992
        Page 1993-1994
        Page 1995-1996
        Page 1997-1998
        Page 1999-2000
        Page 2001-2002
        Page 2003-2004
        Page 2005-2006
        Page 2007-2008
        Page 2009-2010
        Page 2011-2012
        Page 2013-2014
        Page 2015-2016
        Page 2017-2018
        Page 2019-2020
        Page 2021-2022
        Page 2023-2024
        Page 2025-2026
        Page 2027-2028
        Page 2029-2030
        Page 2031-2032
        Page 2033-2034
        Page 2035-2036
        Page 2037-2038
        Page 2039-2040
        Page 2041-2042
        Page 2043-2044
        Page 2045-2046
        Page 2047-2048
        Page 2049-2050
        Page 2051-2052
        Page 2053-2054
        Page 2055-2056
        Page 2057-2058
        Page 2059-2060
        Page 2061-2062
        Page 2063-2064
Full Text




BANSARD'S


PARLI AMENTARY DEBATES.

THIRD SERIES:

COMMENCING WITH THE ACCESSION OF


WII,LAMvL IV.


,PPLID
FOR THE I
/CSER\1


490 VICTORIES,


1886.


VOL. CCCV.

COMPRISING THE PERIOD FROM

THE NINETEENTH DAY OF APRIL 1886,
TO
THE TWENTY-FOURTH DAY OF MAY 1886.


FOURTH VOLUME OF THE SESSION.



LONDON:
PUBLISHED BY CORNELIUS BUCK & SON,
AT THE OFFICE FOR HANSARD'S PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,"
22, PATERNOSTER ROW. [E.C.]


1886.

















TABLE OF CONTENTS


TO


VOLUME CCCV.



THIRD SERIES.



COMMONS, MONDAY, APRIL 19. Page

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
------
North Metropolitan Tramways (No. 2) Bill-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Charles Forster) 2
Motion agreed to:-Bill read a second time, and committed.
PRIVATE BILLS-
Ordered, That Standing Orders 39 and 129 be suspended, and that the time for de-
Spositing Petitions against Private Bills, or against any Bill to confirm any Provisional
Order, or Provisional Certificate, and for depositing Duplicates of any Documents
relating to any Bill to confirm any Provisional Order, or Provisional Certificate, be
extended to Monday 3rd May,-(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
ARMY-THE PURCHASE SYSTEM--PURCHASE LIEUTENANTS-Question, Sir
Richard Paget; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Camp-
bell-Bannerman) .. .... 3
ARMY (PENSIONs)-CASE OF JAMES KELLY, ARMY PENSIONER-Question,
Mr. P. O'Brien; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Camp-
bell-Bannerman) .. .. .. 4
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-- GLIN UNION, Co. LEITRIM-RATING QUALIFICATION
FOR GUARDIAN-Question, Mr. Stack; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ..... 5
LIGHTHOUSES (IRELAND) BEREHAVEN LIGHTHOUSE Question, Mr.
Gilhooly; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) 5
INLAND REVENUE (INCOrME TAX)-BUILDING SOCIETIES-Question, Mr. O. V.
Morgan; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William
Harcourt) ..... .
VOL. CCOV. THEIRR SERIES.] L






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[April 19.1 Page
THE MAGISTRACY (SCOTLAND)-THE GAELIC LANGUAGE-Question, Mr.
Fraser-Mackintosh; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) 6
Angry STORES- UILITARY TENTS- Question, Mr. D. Sullivan; Answer, The
Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. 6
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS-THE VESTRY CLERK OF ST. PANCRAS-QUeS-
tions, Mr. Baggallay; Answers, The President of the Local Govern-
ment Board (Mr. Stansfeld) .... 7
PALACE' OF WESTMINSTER-VENTILATION OF THE HOUSE-Questions, -Mr.
Baumann; Answers, Sir Henry Roscoe, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord
of the Treasury) .. 8
LAw AND JUSTICE (SCOTLAND)-CIRCUIT COUnRT-Question, Mr. E.
Robertson; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. 9
INDIA-VETERINARY SURGEONS Question, Mr. Justin M'Carthy; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for India (Mr. Stafford Howard) .. 9
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-MR. W. L. BOLE, J.P., Co. LONGFORD-
Question, Mr. Justin M'Carthy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ...... 10
TIE ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE-VACANT LAND-Questions, Mr. T. H.
Bolton; Answers, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord of the Treasury) .. 11
AFRICA (WEST COAST)-RIO DEL REY-Question, Mr. Hutton; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) 11
WAR OFFICE ESTABLISIIMENT-SUPPLEMENTARY CLERKS-Question, Mr.
Macdonald Cameron; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman) ........ 11
INDIA (BEN3AL)-THE GOVERNMENT COLLEGE OF KISHNA-xeUR-Question,
Sir Roper Lethbridge; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
India (Mr. Stafford Howard) ..... 12
THE ROYAL IRISII CONSTABULARY-TRANSFERS FROM DOWNPATRICX-QUeS-
tion, Mr. Cox; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) ... 12
LIGHTHOUSES (IRELAND) CARLINGFORD LOUGH LIGHTHOUSE -Question,
Mr. O'Hanlon; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) ....... 12
RAILWAYS (IRELAND)-RAILWAY RATES-Question, Mr. Smithwick; An-
swer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundolla) .. 13
THE MAGISTRACYY (IRELAND)-RESIDENT MAGISTRATES-GOVERNMENT OF
IRELAND BILL, CLAUSE 29-Question, Mr. Trevelyan; Answer, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 14
CONTINUANCE SITTINGS BILL-Question, Mr. Baden Powell; Answer, The
Attorney General (Sir Charles Russell) .. .. 14
LAW AND POLICE (ENGLAND)-EVICTION OF MINERS IX DURHAMI-Ques-
tion, Mr. Atherley-Jones; Answer, The Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 15
CEYL'N -RAILWAY CONSTRUCTION-Question, Mr. Macdonald Cameron ; An-
swer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne
Morgan) .. .. .. 15
PARLIAMENT-CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS-THE STEPNEY ELECTION-Ques-
tion, Mr. Cremer; Answer, The Attorney General (Sir Charles
Russell) .... 16
METROPOLIS-RAILWAY EXTENSION-Question, Mr. Cremer; Answer, The
President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) ... 17
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-CASE OF G. GIBBS AND P. MULLENS-
Question, Mr. Sheehy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley).......... 18
ALLOTMENTS EXTENSION ACT, 1882-LEGISLATION-Question, Mr. Cobb;
Answer, The President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Stansfeld) 19
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (THE JOINT COMMITTEE)-Question, Mr. Magniac;
Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .. 19






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LApril 19.1 Page
THE DOMINION OF CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES-TREATY OF WASr-
INGTON-FISIERY DISPUTES-Question, Mr. Baden-Powell; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) 19
LAND PURCHASES (IRELAND)-Question, Sir George Campbell; Answer,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 20
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-Questions, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, Mr. W.
O'Brien, Mr. Addison; Answers, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
(Sir William Harcourt), The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley), The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 21

ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
0-
Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill [Bill 118]-
Bill considered in Committee [Proqres 15th 'April] [SIXTH NIGHT] .. 21
After long time spent therein, Bill reported.
Moved, "That the Bill, as amended, be considered upon Monday, 3rd May,
and be printed,"-(The Lord Advocate) .... 142
Question put, and agreed to:-Bill to be printed. [Bill 200.]
Police Forces Enfranchisement Bill [Bill 3]-
Order for Committee read .. .. 143
Moved, "That this House will, upon Monday, the 3rd day of May next,
resolve itself into the said Committee,"--(Sir Henry Selwin-lbbetson.)
Amendment proposed, to leave out the words Monday, the 3rd day of
May next," in order to insert the words "Friday, the 20th day of
August next,"--( r. Parnel,)-instead thereof.
Question proposed, That the words Monday, the 3rd day of May next,'
stand part of the Question : "-After short debate, Question put, and
negatived.
Question put, That the words 'Friday, the 20th day of August next,'
be there inserted: "-The House divided; Ayes 80, Noes 77; Ma-
jority 3.-(Div. List, No. 86.)
Main Question, as amended, put:-Committee deferred till Friday 20th
August.
MOTIONS.
-o--
Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill- Ordered (AMr. oharles Aeland, Mlr.
undella); presented, and read the first time [Bill 19.5] .... 149
Gas Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill-Ordered (ir. C/Oarles Acland, Mr. Mlundella);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 196] .... 149
Police and Improvement (Scotland) Provisional Order (LSith) Bill Ordered
(The Lord Advocate, Mr. MAlndella) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 197] .. 149
ADJOUR NMENT-THE EASTER RECESS-
Resolved, That this House will, at the rising of the House this day, ad-
journ till Monday 3rd May. [3.15.]

COMMONS, MONDAY, MAY 3.

QUESTIONS.
-0-
PosT OFFICE (SCOTLAND)-DELIVERIES OF MAILS TO PORTREE Question,
Mr. Fraser-Mackintosh ; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) .... .. 150







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

T May 3. Pap
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-STATISTICS OF "BOYCOTTING "-Question,
Lord George Hamilton ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .. .. .. 151
LICENSING LAws LICENSING OF CLUBS Question, Mr. Agg-Gardner ;
Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) 151
Post OFFICE-OUTWARD AMERICAN MAILS-Question, Mr. Montagu; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) 151
PARLIAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-Observations, Mr. Sexton, Sir
Robert Peel; Questions, Mr. Fraser-Mackintosh, Sir Walter B.
Barttelot; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler), The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .. 152

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-
SUPPLY-considered in Committee-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-
(In the Committee.)
CLASS I.-PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 800, be
granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge
which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of
March 1887, for constructing a new Harbour at Dover" .... 153
After short debate, Amendment proposed, To leave out the words for constructing
a," in order to insert the words "towards the expense of the preliminary Survey
for the site for a projected,"-(31r. Badlaugh,)-instead thereof.
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Ques-
tion: "-After further short debate, Moved, "That the Vote be withdrawn,"-
(Sir William Harcourt :)-After further short debate, Amendment, and Motion, by
leave, withdrawn.
(l.) 25,120, to complete the sum for Peterhead Harbour.
(2.) 141,485, to complete the sum for Rates on Government Property.
(3.) 7,500, to complete the sum for the Metropolitan Fire Brigade.
(4.) 232,000, to complete the sum for Disturnpiked and Main Roads, England and
Wales.
5.) 30,000, to complete the sum for Disturnpiked and other Roads, Scotland.
6.) 182,335, to complete the sum for Public Buildings, Ireland.-After short
debate, Vote agreed to .. .... 174
(7.) 12,208, to complete the sum for Lighthouses Abroad.
(8.) 35,677, to complete the sum for Diplomatic and Consular Buildings.-After
short debate, Vote agreed to ....... 174
CLASS III.-LAW AND JUSTICE.
(9.) 70,974, to complete the sum for Law Charges.-After short debate, Vote
agreed to ... ... 180
(10.) 129,277, to complete the sum for Criminal Prosecutions, Sheriffs' Expenses, &c.
(ii.) 352,219, to complete the sum for the Supreme Court of Judicature.-After
debate, Vote agreed to ...... 181
(12.) 10,930, to complete the sum for the Wreck Commission.
(I3.) 108,804, to complete the sum for County Courts.
(14.) 1,942, to complete the sum for Land Registry.
(15.) 18,690, to complete the sum for Revising Barristers, England.-After short
debate, Vote agreed to ....... 197
(16.) 13,065, to complete the sum for Police Courts, London and Sheerness.
(17.) 409,730, to complete the sum for the Metropolitan Police.-After short debate,
Vote agreed to ...... 199
(i8.) 30,000, to complete the sum for Special Police.
(19.) 852,311, to complete the sum for Police-Counties and Boroughs, Great
Britain.-After short debate, Vote agreed to ... 20
(20.) 286,644, to complete the sum for Convict Establishments in England and the
Colonies.-Vote agreed to .. 205
(21.) 406,035, to complete the sum for Prisons, England.-After short debate,
Vote agreed to ...... .. 206
(22.) 210,852, to complete the sum for Reformatory and Industrial Schools in
Great Britain.-After short debate, Vote agreed to .. 211
(23.) 24,282, to complete the sum for the Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum.






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[May 3.] Page
SUPPL7-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-Committee-continued.
(24.) 54,366, to complete the sum for the Lord Advocate and Criminal Proceedings,
Scotland.-After short debate, Vote agreed to .217
(25.) 58,921, to complete the sum for Courts of Law and Justice, Scotland.-After
short debate, Vote agreed to ..221
(26.) 30,862, to complete the sum for the Register House Department, Edinburgh.
(27.) 147,037, to complete the sum for Police--Counties and Burghs, Scotland.-
After short debate, Vote agreed to ... 227
(28.) 93,876, to complete the sum for Prisons, Scotland.
(29.) 8,559, to complete the sum for the Court of Bankruptcy, Ireland.
(30.) 1,085, to complete the sum for the Admiralty Court Registry, Ireland.
(31.) 83,057, to complete the sum for Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Ireland.
(32.) 5,255, to complete the sum for the Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum,
Ireland.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow ; Committee to sit again upon
Wednesday.

Customs and Inland Revenue Bill [Bill 190]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(le Chancellor of
the Exchequer, Sir William Barcourt) ..... 230
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted for Monday next.

Medical Acts Amendment Bill [Bill 163]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(The Vice President
of the Council, Sir Lyon Playfair) .... .. 236
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time,
and committed for Monday 17th May.

Infants Bill [Bill 139J-
Bill, as amended, considered .. 248
After short debate, Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.

Ulster Canal and Tyrone Navigation Bill [Bill 141]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Mr. Henry
H. Fowler) .. .. 250
Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(MrA Biggar :)-After
short debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 6, Noes 127;
Majority 121.-(Div. List, No. 87.)
Original Question put:-Bill read a second time, and committed for
Monday 17th May.

Burial Grounds Bill [Bill 131]-
l Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(The Under
Secretary of State for the Colonies, Mr. Osborne Morgan) .. 251
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time,
and committed for Monday 24th May.

Returning Officers' Charges (Scotland) Bill [Bill 1881-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(The Lord Advocate) 263
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time,
and committed for Monday next.

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders Bill-Ordered (Mr. Charles Acland, Mr.
Mundella); presented, and read the first time (Bill 201] .. .. 265
[12.45.]






TABLE OF CONTENTS.


COMMONS, TUESDAY, MAY 4. Page

QUESTIONS,
-o---
CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS--CORRUPT AND ILLEGAL PRACTICES-DECISIONS OF
THE JUDGEs-Question, Mr. H. G. Reid; Answer, The Attorney
General (Sir Charles Russell) . 265
LAND PURCHASE (IRELAND) ACT, 1885-STATISTICS or PURCHASES-Ques-
tion, Sir George Campbell ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .. .. 267
POOR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)-LAw or REMOVAL-CASE OF MARY
ANN ASSITER, "MAIDSTONE- Question, Mr. Isaacs ; Answer, The Presi-
dent of the Local Government Board (Mr. Stansfeld) .. 267
VACCINATION LAWS-REPEATED PROSECUTIONS-CASE OF CHARLES HAY-
WARD, ASHFORD, KENT-Questions, Mr. Robinson; Answers, The
Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 268
PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1881-Questions, Mr. Lewis, Mr.
Sexton; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 269
SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE-GREECE AND THE POWERs-Question, Sir Michael
Hicks-Beach; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E.
Gladstone) .... .. 270
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-Questions, Sir George Campbell, Mr. Fraser-
Mackintosh; Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E.
Gladstone), The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. 270

MOTIONS.
-o-
ToBACCO-MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE-
Moved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the working and
effect of the present system of levying Duty upon Tobacco ; to consider, having due
regard to Revenue requirements, whether any change should be introduced, and
to inquire and report upon the excessive use of moisture contained in manufactured
Tobacco,"- (Mr. Maefarlane) .... 271
After short debate, Question put, and negative.

OPIUM-RESOLUTION-
Moved, That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that the Indian Govern-
ment should take measures to terminate gradually its direct connection with the
cultivation of the poppy, and the manufacture of and trade in Opium, and that it
should use the powers that it possesses to prohibit in British India the cultivation of
the poppy, except to supply the legitimate demand of Opium for medical purposes,"
-(Sir Joseph Pease) .. 278
After debate, [House counted out] [8.0.]

COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, MAY 5.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-
Municipal Franchise (Ireland) Bill [Bill 9]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(M2r. James O'Brien) 3 19
After debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and
committed for Monday next.

Probation of First Offenders Bill [Bill 39]-
.Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Mr. Howard
Vincent) .. .. 33
After short debate, Debate adjourned till Wednesday 26th May.






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[Lfay 5.1 Page
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-ORDERS OF THE DAY FOR SECOND READING-
POSTPONEMENT OF UNPRINTED BILLS-Observations, The Secretary to
the Board of Trade (Mr. C. T. D. 'Acland):-Short debate thereon .. .39
Representation of the People Act (1884) Extension Bill [Bill 25]
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Robert Fowler) 341
After short debate, Debate adjourned till Wednesday 7th Suly.
Married Women (Maintenance in Case of Desertion) Bill-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [24th March],
That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Mr. Pulley :)-Question
again proposed :-Debate resumed .... 344
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time,
and committed for Wednesday 19th May.
Quarry (Fencing) Bill [Bill 185]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. T. Blake) .. 347
After short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn :-Bill withdrawn.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill [Bill 27]-
Order for Committee read :-Aloved, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair,"-( Sir Joseph Pease) .... .. 348
Moved, "That it be an Instruction to the said Committee that they have power to
extend the provisions of the said Bill to all houses, shops, and buildings, or any part
thereof, occupied or used by any club, society, or association in which intoxicating
liquors are sold or supplied to the members of the said club, society, or association
for consumption in the said house, or shop, or building, or any part thereof,"-(Mr.
Addison.)
After short debate, Question put, and negative.
Main Question put, and agreed to :-Bill considered in Committee.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Friday 7th June.

Parliamentary Franchise Bill [Bill 124]-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [2nd April],
"That the Bill be now read a second time: "-Question again pro-
posed:-Debate resumed .. 352
After short debate, Moved, "That the Debate be further adjourned till
Wednesday 7th July,"-(Mr. Secretary Childers :)-Question put, and
agreed to.
SuPPLY-REPORT-Resolutions [3rd May] reported .. 354
First Twenty-four Resolutions agreed to.
Twenty-fifth Resolution postponed.
Subsequent Resolutions agreed to.
Postponed Resolution to be considered To-morrow.

MOTION NS.
-o
Jurors' Detention Bill Ordered (Mr. Lockwood, Mr. Crompton, Mr. Finlay, Mr.
Baggallay); presented, and read the first time [Bill 202] .... 356
Mining Leases (Cornwall and Devon) Bill Ordered (Sir John St. Aubyn, Mr.
Courtney, Viscount Ebrington, Mr. Bickford Smith, Mr. Seale-Hayne) ; presented, and
read the first time [Bill 204] ........ 355
Stannaries Act (1869) Amendment Bill Ordered (Sir John St. Aubyn, Mr.
Courtney, Viscount Ebrington, Mr. Bickford Smith, Mr. Seale-Hayne); presented, and
read the first time [Bill 203] .. .... .. 355
[3.45-.]
VQL. COCV. [THIRD SERIES.] [ C






TABLE OF CONTENTS.


LORDS, THURSDAY, MAY 6. Page
THE LATE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEES OF THIS
HOUSE) Observations, The Secretary of State for the Colonies
(Earl Granville), The Marquess of Salisbury .. 355
Drowned Persons (Discovery and Interment) Bill (No. 77)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2*,"-(The Earl Stanhope) .. 358
Motion agreed to :-Bill read 21 accordingly, and committed to a Committee
of the Whole House on Thursday next.
POOR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)-DEATn OF A CHILD IN TOTNES
WORKHOUSE-Question, Viscount Barrington; Answer, Lord Sudeley
(for the Local Government Board) ...... 359
Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2)
Bill [H.L.]--Presented (The Lord Thurlowt); read la; and referred to the Examiners
(No. 84) .. -. .. .. 360
[4.45.1
COMMONS, THURSDAY, MAY 6.

Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
INLAND REVENUE-THE INCOME TAX (IRELAND)-Question, Sir Joseph
M'Kenna; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. .... 360
COURT OF BANKRUPTCY (IRELAND)-DELAYS OF LIQUIDATION-Question,
Mr. Peter M'Donald; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) .. .. .... 361
COURT or BANKRUPTCY (IRELAND)-IRREGULARITIES-Question, Mr. Peter
M'Donald; Answer. The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ...... 362
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-ARKLOW BREAKWATER-Question, Mr.
W. J. Corbet; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. .. 362
PoST OFFICE (SCOTLAND)-THE INVERNESS POST OFFICE-Question, Mr.
Finlay; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) 363
NAVAL PENSIONS-SAMUEL BARBER-Question, Mr. James Hutton; Answer,
The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .... 364
TRAMWAYS (METROPOLIS) Question, Sir Guyer Hunter; Answer, The
Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works (Sir James M'Garel-
Hogg) .. .... 364
MERCHANDISE MARKS ACT, 1862-MARKING OF BRITISH-MADE GOODS-
Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, The President of the Board
of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 365
THE DOVER HARBOUR BOARD- Questions, Major Dickson, Sir Edward
Watkin; Answers, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) ....365
INLAND REVENUE-HERB BEER-Question, Mr. Banister Fletcher; An-
swer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .. 367
.CIVIL SERVICE WRITERS AND CLERKs-Questions, Sir Guyer Hunter, Mr.
Bazley White; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ....... 368
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)--PORTPATRICK HARBOUR-Question, Mr.
Mark Stewart; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .. ........ 369
PARCEL POST-CONVENTIONS WITH FRANCE AND ITALY-Question, Mr.
Henniker Heaton ; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) ., ,. .... 369







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[L~ay 6.] Page
CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACTS-AMENDING LEGISLATION-Question,
Mr. Duckham; Answer, The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Sir
Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) ...... 370
CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACT, 1878-COMPULSORY SLAUGHTER-
AMOUNT OF COST AND INCIDENCE-Question, Mr. Duckham; Answer,
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Sir Ughtred Kay-Shuttle-
worth) .. .... .... 370
NAVY-OBSOLETE VESSELS OF WAR-Question, Lord George Hamilton;
Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. 371
NAVY-H.M.S. THUNDERER "-Question, Lord Charles Beresford; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .... 372
INLAND REVENUE-EXCISE-CHICORY-Question, Mr. Alfred Pease; An-
swer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .. 372
SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE-THE CENTRAL OFFICE-Question, Mr.
Rylands; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. 373
EGYPT-ARMY or OCCUPATION (NUMBERS)-Question, Mr. Labouchere;
Answer, The Financial Secretary, War Department (Mr. Herbert
Gladstone) .. .... ... 374
CANALS AND RAILWAY COMPANIES-Question, Mr. Herbert Gardner; An-
swer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 374
ARMY-RETIRED OFFICERS-Question, Captain Verney; Answer, The
Financial Secretary, War Department (Mr. Herbert Gladstone) .. 375
NAvY-H.M.S. "COLLINGWOOD "-BURSTING OF TIE 43-TON GUN-Ques-
tions, Lord George Hamilton, Lord Charles Beresford, Sir Walter B.
Barttelot; Answers, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert),
The Surveyor General of Ordnance (Mr. Woodall) .. 375
SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE-GREECE ANDT THE POWERS-Question, Mr. Bourke;
Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 377
EGYPT-SIR HENRY DRUMMOND WOLFF'S MISSION-Observations, The
First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .... 378
PUBLIC BILLS-SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL-ALTERA-
TION OF DATE-Observations, Question, Sir Joseph Pease; Answer,
Mr. Speaker ...... .... 379:

ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-0-
Railway and Canal Traffic Bill [Bill 138]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mfr. fundella) .. 380
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "while this House desires legislation with the object of securing uniformity
of classification for merchandise conveyed by Railway, the consolidation of the
toll powers of Railway Companies, and such other modifications of the existing law
as experience has shown to be useful and necessary, including the establishment of a
strong and permanent Court with special powers over Railways and Canals, it is
not prepared to sanction any compulsory interference with or diminution of those
powers of earning revenue granted by Parliament to Railway Companies upon
the faith of which eight hundred millions of capital have been expended, and upon
which the security of that capital depends,"--(Mr. Joseph Bolton,)-instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the. Question: "-After long debate, Amendment, by leave, with-
drawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted for Tuesday next.







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[Maay 6.1 Page
Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill [Bill 2001--
Bill, as amended, considered .. .. 466
After short debate, Moved, That the Bill be read a third time on Monday
the 10th of May,"--(The Lord Advocate :)-After further short debate,
Question put, and agreed to:-Bill to be read the third time upon
Monday next.
International and Colonial Copyright Bill [Bill 156]-
Bill considered in Committee .. .. 478
After some time spent therein, Committee report Progress; to sit again
upon Monday 24th May.
SUPPLY REPORT-Postponed Resolution [3rd May] considered.
(25.) 58,921, to complete the sum for the Salaries and Expenses of the Courts of Law
and Justice in Scotland, and other Legal Charges .. .. 489
Moved, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said
Resolution: "--Moed, "That the Debate be adjourned till Monday
next,"-(Mr. Fraser-Mfackintosh :)-Motion agreed to :-Debate adjourned
till Monday next.
Highways Acts Amendment Bill [Bill 149]-
Bill, as amended, considered .. .. .. .. 489
Bill read the third time, and passed.

Arms (Ireland) Bill-Ordered (Mr. John Morley, Mr. Secretary Childers, Mr. Attorney
General) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 205] .. .. 490
[2.15.]

LORDS, FRIDAY, MAY 7.
RoYAL NAVAL VOLUNTEER CORPS-RESOLUTION-
Moved, That there be laid before this House any further correspondence respecting the
Royal Naval Volunteer Corps from naval officers or other officials who have been
instructed to inquire into or to report upon the subject,"-(The Viscount Sidmouth) 490
After short debate, Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
NAvY-H.M.S. COLLIuNWOOD "-BURSTING OF THE 43-TON Gux-Question,
Observations, Viscount Sidmouth, The Earl of Ravensworth; Reply,
The First Lord of the Admiralty (The Marquess of Ripon) .. 492
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND-Observation, Question, Lord Ashbourne; Reply,
The Lord President of the Council (Earl Spencer) .... 496
Incumbents of Benefices Loans Extension Bill [H.L.] Presented (The Duke of
Buckingham and Chandos); read 1 (No. 89) .... 496
Municipal Corporations (Scheme Confirmation) Bill [n.L.]-Presented (The Lord
President); read 11; and referred to the Examiners (No. 90) .. 496
[5.15.j
COMMONS, FRIDAY, MAY 7.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
---0----
Charterhouse Bill [Lords] (by Order)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Richard
Wester) .. .. .. .... 496
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "in the opinion of this House, it is inexpedient to abolish the Hospital founded







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Lay 7.1 Page
Charterhouse Bill [Lords] (by Order)-continued.
by Thomas Sutton in the London Charterhouse, to mutilate a most interesting relic of
Old London, and to cover with buildings a considerable area of open ground in the
heart of the Metropolis, in order to re-construct a Charity which, in its present form,
carries out the intention of the Founder, and has not been shown to be unsuitable to
the needs of the present day, or to have given rise to abuses,"--(Mr. Walter James,)-
instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question :"-After debate, Moved, "That the Debate be now
adjourned," (3Mr. Beresford Hope:) After further short debate,
Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 99, Noes 198; Majority 99.
-(Div. List, No. 89.)
Question again proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand
part of the Question: "-After short debate, Amendment, by leave,
withdrawn.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn :-Bill withdrawn.

MOTIONS.
---0-
Gas and Water Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill-Ordered ([ir. Charles Acland,
Mr. tMundella); presented, and read the first time [Bill 206] .. ** 523
Water Provisional Orders Bill Ordered (fr. Charles Aeland, iMr. iMundella);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 207] .. .. 28

Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
EGYPT-ARMY OF OCCUPATION-MEDICAL OFFICERS AT SUAKIN-Question,
Mr. Mitchell Henry; Answer, The Financial Secretary, War Depart-
ment (Mr. Herbert Gladstone) .. 523
EXCHEQUER DEPOSITs-Question, Mr. Lionel Cohen; Answer, The Secretary
to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .524
POST OFFICE (SCOTLAND)-MAILS TO THE OUTER HEBRIDES-Question, Mr.
Macfarlane; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ... .. 524
TENURE OF LAND-HOMESTEAD AND EXEMPTION LAWS IN THE UNITED
STATES Question, Mr. Edmund Robertson; Answer, The Under
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 524
BURMAH-MILITARY EXECUTIONS-COLONEL HOOPER--Question, Mr. James
Maclean; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Mr. Stafford
Howard) ...... .. 25
RAILWAYS (INDIA)-THE NAOGORE-BENGAL RAILWAY-Question, Mr. James
Maclean; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Mr. Stafford
Howard) .. .. .. 526
GIBRALTAR-SIR JoIHN ADYE--(uestion, Viscount Curzon; Answer, The
Financial Secretary, War Department (Mr. Herbert Gladstone) .. 526
NAVY-H.M.S. COLLINOWOOD "-BURSTING OF THE 43-TON GUN-QueS-
tion, Captain Price; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr.
Hibbert) ... 527
GREENWICH HOSPITAL-THE WIVES AND FAMILIES OF NAVAL PENSIONERS--
Question, Captain Price; Answer, The Civil Lord of the Admiralty
(Mr. R. W. Duff) .... .. 528
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL-Question, Sir
Michael Hicks-Beach ; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr.
W. E. Gladstone) .. 528
CROFTERS (SCOTLAND) (NO. 2) BILL-NAMES OF THE COMMISSIONERS-
Question, Mr. Craig-Sellar; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury
(Mr. W. E. Gladstone) ........ 528







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

LMay 7.1 page
SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE-REPLY OF THE GREEK GOVERNMENST-Question,
Sir Michael Hicks-Beach; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury
(Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. .. 529
RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC BILL-CONTROL or CANALS-Question, Mir.
Herbert Gardner; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .. .. 529

ORDER OF THE DA Y.
--0-

SUPPLY-Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question proposed,
That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair: "-
POSTAL SERVICE (BRITISH POSSESSIONS)--RATES OF POSTAGE-RESOLUTION
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "the interests of the people urgently require that on letters, newspapers,
and printed matter there should be a discontinuance of the charges of higher rates
of postage in Great Britain than those which are charged to the public in other
countries for Postal Service by British steamers carrying Mails to and from the
Colonies and the possessions of Great Britain in India and elsewhere,"-(Mr.
: James Hutton,)-instead thereof ....... 580
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," again
proposed :-
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-SCHOOL BOARD ELECTIONS-HOURS OF POLLING
-Observations, Mr. T. Fry:-Short debate thereon .. 538
PoST OFFICES AT RAILWAY STATIONs-Observations, Mr. Cavendish
Bentinck; Reply, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) 545
House counted out] [7.0.]

LORDS, MONDAY, MAY 10.

SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE-GREECE-BLOCKADE OF THE GREEK COAST-Minis-
terial Statement, The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (The Earl
of Rosebery) ; Observations, The Marquess of Salisbury .. 546
SPAIN-SIGNATURES OF THE COMMERCIAL CONVENTION Ministerial State-
ment, The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (The Earl of
Rosebery) .......... 550
CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES OF THIS HOUSE-RESOLUTION-
Moved, "That the Earl of Morley be appointed to take the Chair in all
Committees of this House for the remainder of this Session,"-(The
Earl Granville) .. 551
Amendment moved, to leave out ("Earl of Morley,") and insert (" Duke
of Buckingham and Chandos,")-(The fM arquess of Salisbury.)
After short debate, on Question, That the words proposed to be left out
stand part of the Motion ? their Lordships divided; Contents 103, Not-
Contents 122 ; Majority 19.-Resolved in the negative.
Then it was moved to resolve,
That the Duke of Buckingham and Chandos be appointed to take the Chair in all
Committees of this House for the remainder of this Session:
"That the Duke of Buckingham and Chandos do take the Chair in all Committees of
the Whole House unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House:
"That the Duke of Buckingham and Chandos do also take the Chair in all Committees
upon Private Bills and other matters, unless where it shall have been otherwise
directed by the House."
Agreed to; and resolved accordingly.







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LMay 10.] Page
REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR IRELAND-
Ordered, That there be laid before this House a nominal return, in tabular form, of the
Lords Temporal at present elected to serve in Parliament for Ireland, arranged ac-
cording to date of election, with the number of years of service, and showing the
naval, military, or civil rank in public service (if any) of each Peer, and also the
naval or military commands or civil public offices he may have held,-(The Earl of
Belmore.)
NAVY-DISCIPLINE, &C.-IRREGULARITIES IN BARRACK--Question, Obser-
vations, Viscount Midleton; Reply, The First Lord of the Admiralty
(The Marquess of Ripon) .... .... 556
Metropolitan Police Stations Bill (No. 87)--
Moved, "That the Bill he now read 21,"-(The Paymaster General, Lord
Thurlow) ....... 558
Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2' accordingly, and committed to a Committee
of the Whole House To-morrow.
NAvY-THE ESTIMATES, 1886-7-RESOLUTION-
Moved, That the Navy Estimates for this year be laid on the Table of this House,"-
(The Viscount Sidmouth) ........ 558
After short debate, Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn. [5.45.]

COMMONS, MONDAY, MAY 10.

Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
LITERATURE, SCIENCE, AND ART-WATER COLOUR DRAWINGS AT SOUTH
KENSINGTON MUSEUM Question, Mr. Agnew; Answer, The Vice
President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .... 560
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) MEMORANDUM OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE
SCHOOL BOARD OF Ross KEEN, ROSS-SHIRE, AND ITS TEACHERS-QueS-
tion, Dr. R. Macdonald; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B.
Balfour) .. .. .... .. 561
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-LONGFORD ASSIZES-ASSAULT ON JAMES AND
CHRISTOPHER NEWMAN-Questions, Mr. Justin M'Carthy; Answers, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley). .. 56
FOREIGN OFFICE--CONSULAR AND COMMERCIAL REPoRTs-Question, Mr. J.
G. Hubbard; Answer, The.Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) .. 564
EGYPT-SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF'S MISSION -Question, Sir George
Campbell; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) ....... 564
MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1854 THE "CREOLE "-Question, Colonel
Hughes-Hallett; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .. .. .. .. 565
SCOTLAND-LOCAL TAXATION-THE BLUE BOOK FOR 1884-Question, Mr.
J. W. Barclay; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. 566
ARMY (INDIA) INSPECTORS OF ARMY SCHOOLS Question, Viscount
Lewisham; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Mr.
Stafford Howard) .. .. .. 566
POST OFFICE INSUFFICIENTLY ADDRESSED TELEGRAMS Question, Mr.
Forwood; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ..... .. 567
SCOTLAND-DISTRESS IN KINTRA, ROSS OF MULL, ARGYLLSIIIRE-Question,
Mr. Macfarlane; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. 568
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-POLICE SUPERANNUATION BILL-Question, Sir
Henry Selwin-Ibbetson; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Childers) .. .... .. 568







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[May 10.]
AFGHAN DEMARCATION COMMISSION-Question, Mr. Hanbury; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce)
SOUTH-EASTERN EUEOPE-GREECE-BLOCKADE OF THE GREEK COAST-Ques-
tions, Mr. Bourke, Mr. Joseph Cowen; Answers, The Under Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) ...
PARLIAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE BURGII POLICE AND HEALTH
(SCOTLAND) BILL-Question, Mr. Buchanan; Answer, The Lord Advo-
cate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) ...
SPAIN-SIGNATURES OF THE COMMERCIAL CONVENTION- Statement, The
Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce); Questions,
Sir James Fergusson, Mr. Forwood, Sir Henry Roscoe; Answers, Mr.
Bryce ..


Page

568


569


570



.;7n


BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-DEBATE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL
-Questions, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, Lord Randolph Churchill; An-
swers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 572
ARMs (IRELAND) BILL-Question, Mr. Brodrick; Answer, The Chief Secre-
tary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 573

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-

Government of Ireland Bill [Bill 181] [FIRsT NIonIT--
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(The First Lord of
the Treasury, Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .... 574
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end
of the Question to add the words upon this day six months,"-(The
Marquess of JHartington.)
Question proposed, That the word now' stand part of the Question: "
-After long debate, Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-
(Sir Henry James :)-Motion agreed to :-Debate adjourned till Thursday.

Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill [Bill 200]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read the third time,"-(The Lord Advocate,
Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. .. 678
After short debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 219, Noes
52; Majority 167.-(Div. List, No. 90:)-Bill read the third time, and
passed.

customs and Inland Revenue Bill [Bill 190]-
Bill considered in Committee .. .. 683
After short time spent therein, Committee report Progress; to sit again
upon Thursday.
Burgh Police and Health (Scotland) Bill [Lords] [Bill 194]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(The Lord Advocate,
Mr. J. B. Balfour) .... 687
After short debate, Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-
(Dr. Cameron :)-Motion agreed to:-Debate adjourned till Monday next.

Terms of Removal (Scotland) Bill [Bill 187]-
Order for Committee read:-Moved, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair,"--(The Lord Advocate, Mr. J. B. alfour) .. 690
After short debate, Question put :-The House divided; Ayes 113, Noes
28; Majority 85.-(Div. List, No. 92.)
Bill considered in Committee.
Committee report Progress; to it again upon Monday 24th May.


570






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[2May 10.1 Page
SUrPLY [3rd May] REPORT-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [6th May],
That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolu-
tion "-
(25.) "58,921, to complete the sum for the Salaries and Expenses of the Courts of Law
and Justice in Scotland, and other Legal Charges" .. .. 691
Question again proposed :-Debate resumed.
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.

Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill--Odeire (.1M. ch/,rlc.s Aeand, MJr.
.iefndella) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 208] .. .. 692
L2.15.]

LORDS, TUESDAY, MAY 11.
Salmon Fisheries Amendment (Scotland) Bill (No. 30)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2',"-(The Marquess of Huntly) .. 692
Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and add at the end of the
Motion (" this day six months,")--(The Lord Balfour.)
After short debate, Amendment, Original Motion, and Bill (by leave of
the House) withdrawn.

Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday (Durham) Bill (No. 59)
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2',"-( The Lord Bishop of Durham) .. 703
Amendment moved, to leave out ("now ") and add at the end of the
Motion ("this day six months,")-(The Lord Bramwell.)
After debate, on Question, That (" now ") stand part of the Motion?
their Lordships divided ; Contents 47, Not-Contents 41 ; Majority 6:-
Resolved in the affirmative.
Division List, Contents and Not-Contents .. 720
Bill read 21 accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole
House on Thursday next.

Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Birmingham) Bill
[n.L.]-Presented (The Lord Fresident) ; read 1"; and referred to the Examiners
(No. 96) ....... .. 721
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London) Bill [i.L.]
-Presented (The Lord President); read 1', and referred to the Examiners (No. 97) 721
[7.45.]

COMMONS, TUESDAY, MAY 11.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
o--
FELIXSTOWE, IPSWICII, AND MIDLANDS RAILWAY, PETITION FOR BILL-
RESOLUTION-
Moved, That the Resolution of the Standing Orders Committee of the 19th day of
February last, with respect to the Fclixstowe, Ipswich, and Midlands Railway Peti-
tion, together with the said Petition, and the Bill annexed thereto, be referred back
to the said Committee, and that they have power to inquire whether there are any
special circumstances which render it just and expedient that the Standing Orders
should be dispensed with in respect to the said Petition,"--(Mr. Everett) .. 722
After short debate, Motion agreed to.


VOL. CC0 V. [TH*1iD SERIES.]


I d






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[jay 11.] Page
PR OVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
-o-

Commons Regulation (Hayling) Provisional Order Bill-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(The Under Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department, Mr. Broadhurst) .... 732
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"--(Mr.
Edward Buxton.)
Question proposed, That the word now' stand part of the Question : "
--lored, That the Debate be now adjourned,"--,(r. T. /1 Ilaly:)
-Question put, and negatived.
After debate, Original Question, "That the word now stand part of the
Question," put, and negative :-Words added.
Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to:-Second Reading put off
for six months.
Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
STATE OF IRELAND-Question, Mr. Byrne; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ..... 753
THE PARKS (MoETROPOLIS) --THE CARRIAGE ROADS IN ST. JAMES'S PARK-
Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord
of the Treasury) .... .. 753
POST OFFICE KIVETON PARK, YORK, W.R. Question, Mr. Shirley;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 754
CENTRAL AsIA-MISsION TO THIBET-Question, Mr. Hutton; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for India (Mr. Stafford Howard) .. 755
AnMY-CO-OPERATIVE STOREs-Questions, Mr. Hooper, Mr. Sclater-Booth;
Answers, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) 755
INLAND REVENUE-INCOME TAX COLLECTORS-Questions, Mr. Cox; Answers,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 758
PUBLIC HEALTH-REMOVAL OF S.MALL-Pox PRISONERS-Questions, Mr.
Stanley Leighton; Answers, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Childers) .. .. .. 759
NAVY-CONTRACTS FOE CRUISERS WITH PRIVATE BUILDERS-Question, Mr.
Jacks; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) 760
THE ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-CONSTABLE HAYES-Question, Mr. H.
Campbell; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. ...... .. 760
EGYPT-THE MILITARY EXPEDITION -THE BATTLE OF GINNIS -Question,
Viscount Newark; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman) ..... 761
INLAND NAVIGATION AND DRAINAGE (IRELAND)-THE RIVER SHANNON-
Questions, Mr. W. Abraham (Limerick, W.), Mr. Cox; Answers, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 762
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL-THE CIVIL SERVICE-Question, Mr.
Stanley Leighton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .. .... 763
IRELAND-ARKLOW HARBOUR WonRKS-THE BREAKWATER-Questions, Mr.
W. J. Corbet; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry
H. Fowler) ........ .. 763
EGYPT-BRITISH TROOPS IN EGYPT-SANITARY CONDITION--Question, Mr.
Coope; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-
Bannerman) .. .... 764







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[i ay 11. Page
INLAND REVENUE-SALARIES OF FIRST-L.ss ASSISTANTS-Question, Mr.
Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir
William Harcourt) ........ 765
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-THE DEBATE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND
BILL-Questions, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, Mr. T. P. O'Connor; An-
swers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) 765

MOTIONS.
---0----
DEATH PENALTY-RESOLUTION-
Moved, "That, in the opinion of this House, the timn has arrived for the abolition of
the death penalty for the crime of murder,"-(Sir Jos.ph Pease) .* 767
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word "House" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words" it is desirable that offences, for which the penalty of death now follows a
verdict of guilty, unless remitted by Her Majesty, should be divided into three
categories, as recommended by a Royal Commission in 1866; and in order that
executions, when necessary, may be carried out with every regard to humanity and
decency, an experienced person should be selected by the Government for the
purpose, and adequately remunerated from public funds,"-(Mr. Howard Vincent,)
-instead thereof.
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Main Question put :-The House divided ; Ayes 63, Noes 117; Majority
54.
S Division List, Ayes and Noes ...... 789
VALUATION OF REAL PROPERTY-RESOLUTION-
Moved, That a comprehensive measure for regulating the valuation of property for
the purposes of Imperial and Local Taxation is essentially necessary,"-(Mr.
Dulckham) .. .. ... .... 790
After short debate, Resolution agreed to.
INCOME TAX-MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE-
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the way in which Income
Tax is levied, especially on unlet property, on partially let property, on property
rated above its present letting value, on the investments of Insurance Companies,
Savings and other Banks, and other cases in which Income Tax is claimed on more
than the income actually received,"- (Mr. Bartley) .... .. 801
After short debate, Question put:-Ths House divided; Ayes 63, Noes
174 : Majority 1ll.-(Div. List, No. 94.)
Losses by Riot (Compensation) Bill-
Moved, "That leave be given to bring ai a Bill to give Compensation for
Losses by Riot,"--(Jr. Secretary Childers) .. .. 805
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill ordered (Kfr. Secretary Childers,
3Mr. Broadhurst, Mr. Attorney General) ; presented, and read the first
time. [Bill 209.]
ORDER OF THE DAY.
o--
Land Transfer (Scotland) Bill [Bill 141]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"--( r. Boyd-Km near) 808
After debate, Question put, and negative.

MOTIONS.
-0-
Charities, &c. (Exemption from Local Rates) Bill--Ordered (Sir Julian Goldsmid,
Mr. Baggallay, Mr. Oetavils Morgan, Sir Robert Fowler, Baron F. de Rothschild, Sir
Algernon Borthwick, Mir. I. I. Lawson); presented, and read the first time [Bill 210] 828







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

LMlay 11.] Page
Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act (1875) Amendment Bill-
Ordered (Mr. T Healy, Mr. Chance); presented, and read the first time [Bill 211] 828
RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC LEXPENsES, &C.J-
Considered in Committee .. .. 828
Resolution agreed to ; to be reported To.morrow...
[12.45.]

COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, MAY 12.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-
Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers' Expenses)
(Ireland) Bill [Bill 8]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. uitoe) 829
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"-(Colonel
Iing-Harman.)
Question proposed, That the word 'now' stand part of the Question:"
-After debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 174, Noes
56; Majority 118.-(Div. List, No. 95.)
Compulsory Purchase of Land Compensation Bill [Bill 1451-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(M3r. M'Laren) .. 855
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"--(Ir.
Gregory.)
Question proposed, That the word now stand part of the Question : "
-After debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 203, Noes
103; Majority 100.-(Div. List, No. 99.)
Main Question put, and agreed to:-Bill read a second time, and committed
for Tuesday next.
Beer Adulteration (No. 3) Bill [Bill 66]-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [14th April],
"That the Bill be now read a second time: "-Question again pro-
posed :-Debate resumed .. ... 868
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time,
and committed for Wednesday 2nd June.
Church Patronage Bill [Bill 4]-
Order for Committee read:-Moved, That Mr. Speaker do now leave
the Chair,"--(Mr. Leatham) .. .. .. 875
After short debate, it being a quarter of an hour before Six'of the clock,
the Debate stood adjourned till To-morrow.

MOTIONS.
----
Stipendiary Magistrates (Pensions) Bill--Ordered (3ir. Hastings, Mr. Kenriek, ir.
Forwood, Mr. Wiggin); presented, and read the first time [Bill 212] .. .. 876
NATIONAL PROVIDENT INSURANCE-
Select Committee nominated:-List of the Committee .... 876
FORESTRY-
Select Committee nominated :-List of the Committee .. ** *. 876
[5.50.]







TABLE OF CONTENTS.


LORDS, THURSDAY, MAY 13. Page
BUSINESS OF THE HoUSE-Observations, The Marquess of Salisbury :-Short
debate thereon ........ 877
Church Patronage Bill (No. 63)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a,"-(The Lord Archbisop of
Canterbury) ..... .. .. 879
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2" accordingly, and referred
to a Select Committee.
"IRELAND (ELECTORAL STATISTICS) RETURN "-Observations, The Earl of
Limerick; Reply, The Lord President of the Council (Earl Spancer).. 894
STATE OF IRELAND-REPRESENTATIONS FROM PUBLIC BODIES TO THE PRIME
MINISTER-MOTION FOR A PAPER-
Copy of Selection from the representations made to the First Lord of the Treasury by
public bodies, in response to the invitation for the free communication of views on
Ireland, contained in a letter addressed by the First Lord of the Treasury to Viscount
de Vesci en the 12th day of February, 1886, ordered by the House of Commons on
the 16th April last to be printed, No. 117: Ordered to be laid before the House (The
Lord Ashbourne.)
Friendly Societies Act (1875) Amendment Bill [u.L.]-Presented (The Lord
Greville); read 1" (No. 99) .... .. 898
[6.45.]
COMMONS, THURSDAY, MAY 13.
Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
EvICTIONS (IRELAND)-Q-uestions, Mr. Harris, Mr. Mitchell Henry; An-
swers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley), Mr.
Speaker ...... 899
PERU--TIE PERUVIAN BONDHOLDERS-Questions, Mr. Thorold Rogers, Mr.
T. H. Bolton, Mr. Norris; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) ...... 900
LIGHTHOUSE ILLUMINANTS-THE CORRESPONDENCE-Question, Dr. Cameron;
Answer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. C. T. D. Acland) .. 902
LAW AND JUSTICE (SCOTLAND) THE ALLEGED FRAUDS BY "PRINCIPAL"
NERO-Question, Dr. Cameron; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B.
Balfour) .. .. .. .. 903
THE ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-DISTRICT INSPECTOR LEATHAM, DOWN-
rATRICrK-Questions, Mr. A. Blane, Mr. Johnston; Answers, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. .. 904
TIlE RABBIT PLAGUE IN AUSTRALIA-Question, Mr. M. J. Kenny; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) 904
NAVY-H.M.S. CoLLINGwoon "-BURSTING OF THE 43-TON GUN-Ques-
tion, Sir Henry Tyler; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman) .. .. ... 905
INLAND iEVENUE--THE INCOME TAX Question, Mr. Ainslie; Answer,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .. 906
B3RITISH COLONIAL WTINES-THE CONVENTION WITH SPAIN--Questions, Sir
James Fergusson, Mr. Forwood; Answers, The Chancellor of the
Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt), The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. .. 906
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)--THE MILITIA REGULATIONS-Question, Mr.
STottenham; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-
Bannerman) ........ 907
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-HOUSE OF COMMONS-ACCOMa ODATION FOR
MEMBERS-LOOKERS-Question, Mr. O'Hanlon; Answer, Mr. Leveson
Gower (A Lord of the Treasury) .. .. 907







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[L ay 13.] Page
IRELAND-LORD WOLSELEY--SPEECII OF M11. WILLIAMI JOHNSTON, M.P. -
Questions, Mr. T. M. Healy, Mr. T. P. O'Connor; Answers, The Secre-
tary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman), The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley), Mr. Speaker .. 907
INDIA (CURRENCY, &c.)-THE SILVER QUESTION-Questions, Mr. J. M.
Maclean; Answers, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William
Harcourt) .. ... .... 909
THE AUSTRALASIAN COLONIES THE CONVENTION OF SYDNEY FOREIGN
ANNEXATION IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC-Question, Mr. Howard Vincent;
Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 909
CANADIAN FISHERIES-THE DAVID J. ADAMS "-Question, Mr. Howard
Vincent; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr.
Osborne Morgan) .. .. ..910
BT:SINESS OF THE HousnE-Observations, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, Mr.
Bradlaugh; Replies, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E.
Gladstone) ...... .. .. 910

ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-0-
Government of Ireland Bill [Bill 181]-SECOND READING. [AD-
JOURNED DEBATE] [SECOND NIGHT --
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to
Question [10th May], That the Bill be now read a second time : "-
Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the
Question: "-Debate resumed .. .. .. 92
After long debate, Moved, "'That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Sir
R. Asshetfn Cross:)-Motion agreed to:-Debate adjourned till Jlonday
next.
Customs and Inland Revenue Bill I Bill 190]-
Bill considered in Committee .. .. .. 1023
After short time spent therein, Bill reported, without Amendment ; to be
read the third time To-morrow.

MOTION.
-o-
Ulster Canal and Tyrone Navigation Bill IBill 141]-
Moved, That the Select Committee on the Ulster Canal and Tyrone Navigation Bill do
consist of Nine Members, Five to be nominated by the House and Four by the
Committee of Selection,"-(Mfr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. .. 1030
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "five,"-(Mr. Biggar.)
Question proposed, That the word five stand part of the Question: "
-After short debate, Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Ordered, That all Petitions against the Bill presented not later than three clear days
before the sitting of the Committee be referred to the Committee, and that such of
the Petitioners as pray to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, Agents, or Witnesses
be heard upon their Petitions, if they think fit, and Counsel heard in favour of the
Bill against such Petitions.
Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
Ordered, That Three be the quorum of the Committee,-(M3r. Henry H. Fowler.)
[1.0.j

LORDS, FRIDAY, MAY 14.
Their Lordships met;-and having gone through the Business on the
Paper without debate, [House adjourned] [4.30.]






TABLE OF CONTENTS.


COMMONS, FRIDAY, MAY 14. Pago
Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
VETERINARY PORTAL INSPECTORS (IRELAND)-Question, Mr. Cox; Answer,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ... 1031
THE MAGISTRACY (SCOTLAND)-SHERIFF IVORY'S REPORT TO THE COMMIS-
SIONERS or SUPPLY-Question, Dr. Cameron; Answer, The Lord Ad-
vocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) ....... 1032
Poon LAW (IRELAND)-DR. CROIKER, DISPENSARY MEDICAL OFFICER OF THE
BALLYMACARRETT DIVISION OF THE BELFAST UNIoN-Question, Mr.
Biggar; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1033
EVICTIONS (SCOTLAND)-ALLEGED EXTRAORDINARY EVICTION IN PERTHSHIRE
-Question, Mr. Macdonald Cameron; Answer, The Lord Advocate
(Mr. J. B. Balfour) ....... 1034
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-DUNGANNON PETTY SESSIONS-INTIMIDATION
-Questions, Mr. Johnston, Mr. W. O'Brien ; Answers, Mr. Speaker,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ... 1035
IRELAND-EDUCATION OF THE CHILDREN OF LIGHTHOUSE KEEPERS-Ques-
tions, Mr. Johnston; Answers, The Secretary to the Board of Trade
(Mr. C. T. D. Acland) .. ...... 1037
WESTMINSTER HALL-ADMISSION OF THE PUBLIC-Question, Mr. Lawson;
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Childers) ...... .. 1037
LAW AND POLICE (IRELAND)-ASSAULT BY A CARETAKER- Question, Mr.
Condon; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1037
STATE OF IRELAND-DISTRESS IN KERRY-Questions, Mr. John O'Connor
(Kerry, S.), Mr. E. Harrington; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Mr. John Morley) .. .. .. 1038
EGYPT-THE NILE EXPEDITION, 1884-5-Question, Mr. Stanley Leighton;
Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) 1039
INLAND REVENUE-INCOME TAX COMMISSIONERS-NAMES FOR THE DISTRICT
OF SEISDON-Question, Mr. Hickman; Answer, The Chancellor of the
Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .. .. .. 1039
IRELAND-ARKLOW HARBOUR WoRKs-Question, Mr. W. J. Corbet; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 1040
CIVIL SERVICE WRITERS-Question, Mr. Vanderbyl; Answer, The Secretary
to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. .. 1040
VACCINATION-THE ISLAND OF RUGEN-Question, Mr. Arthur O'Connor;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) 1040
TRADE AND COMMERCE-THE CONVENTION WITH SPAIN--BRITISH COLONIAL
PRODUCE-Question, Mr. Baden-Powell; Answer, The Under Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 1041
CANADIAN FISHERIES-THE "DAVID J. ADAMS "-Question, Mr. Baden-
Powell; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr.
Bryce) .......... 1041
ISLANDS OF TIE SOUTH PACIFIC-THE NEW HEBRIDES-Question, Mr. Howard
Vincent; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr.
Osborne Morgan) ........ 1042
THE IRISH POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT-MEETING AT BELFAST-Ques-
tions, Mr. Johnston, Mr. Sexton; Answers, Mr. Speaker, The First
Lord of the Treasury (Mr. WV. E. Gladstone) .... 1043

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-0-
SUPPLY-Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair: "-






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[May 14.] Page
SurrLY-Order for Committee read- continued.
IMPORT DUTIES-RESOLUTION-Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "in the opinion of this House, it is expedient to raise a larger portion of the
Revenue of the Country from Import Duties, and that such Duties should be levied
on certain descriptions of fully manufactured Foreign goods, entering'into competi-
tion with similar goods of our own make; and that the Revenue so obtained
should be applied to the reduction of the Duties on tea, coffee, and cocoa, and of
other burdensome imposts,"-(Mr. Jennings,)-instead thereof .. .. 1015
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After long debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Main Question again proposed, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair: "-
MINING ROYALTIES-RESOLUTIoN-Obesrvations, Mr. Mason: -Debate
thereon ... .. .. 1113
Motion, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," by leave, with-
drawn.
SUPPLY,-Committee upon Monday next.
Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act (1375)
Amendment Bill [Bill 211]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(3r. T. 31. Iealy) 1142
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted for J!N,.ld 2 I thi May.

KITCHEN AND REFRESHMENT RooMs-
Moved, "That the Select Committee on the Kitchen and Refreshment
Rooms do consist of Nineteen Members,"-(The Secretary to the Trea-
sury, M3r. Arnold Morley) ... .. .. 1144
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Other Members added. [2.0.]

LORDS, MONDAY, MAY 17.
UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND)-Question, Observations, Lord Balfour; Reply,
The Secretary for Scotland (The Earl of Dalhousie) .... 1145

Infants Bill (No. 86)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a,"-(The Lord Chancellor, Lord
Ilerschell) .. .. .. .. 1146
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 21 accordingly.
MALTA-RESOLUTION-
Moved for, Copies of all Correspondence having reference to the Maltese nobility
which has been addressed to or has emanated from the Colonial Office since August
1883, up to the present date,"--(The Viscount Sidmlouth) .... 1149
Motion agreed to.
Copies or extracts of correspondence with reference to the Maltese
nobility (in continuation of [0.-3812], August 1883) :
Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

Incumbents of Benefices Loans Extension Bill (No. 89)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 21,"-(The C/lairrni of Committees,
The Duke of Buckingham) .. .. .. .. 1150
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2' accordingly, and com-
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow,






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Lay 14. Page
LITERATURE, SCIENCE, AND ART-THE WoRKs oF MR. WATTS, R.A.-
Question, Observations, The Earl of Wemyss; Reply, The Lord
President of the Council (Earl Spencer) .... 1151
Rivers Pollution Prevention Bill [H.L.]-Presented (The Lord Balfour); read 1a
(No. 114) .... ...... 1153
West Indian Incumbered Estates Bill [u.L.] Presented (The Earl Gramnille);
read 1 (No. 115) .. .. .. .... 1153
British North America Bill [I.L.]--Presented (Tle Earl Granville); read 1' (No. 116) 1154
Church Patronage Bill [nr.L.]-
Select Committee nominated:-List of the Committee .... 1154
L6.0.]
COMMONS, MONDAY, MAY 17.

Q UES TIONS.
-0-
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-THE ROYAL COMMISSION ON TECHNICAL INSTRUC-
TION-THE SECOND REPORT-Question, Mr. Lewis Fry; Answer, The
Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .... 1154
SCOTLAND-SIERIFF IVORY-Question, Mr. Fraser-Mackintosh; Answer,
The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) ...... 1155
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-THE EDUCATION CODE-EXAMINATIONs--Question,
Mr. Mildmay; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon
Playfair) .......... 1155
ARMY (INDIA) ROYAL ENGINEER OFFICERS Question, Mr. Howard
Spensley; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-
Bannerman) .......... 1156
INDIA (FINANCE, C.) DEPRECIATION OF SILVER Question, Colonel
Hughes Hallett; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir
William Harcourt) .... .. 1156
PUBLIC HEALTH (METROPOLIS)-TIIE ISLE OF DoGs-Question, Mr. Henry
Green; Answer, The Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works
(Sir James M'Garel-Hogg) .... .. 1157
BOARD OF WORKS (IRELAND)--PAYMENT OF FINAL INSTALLMENT OF A LOAN
GRANTED UNDER THE LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACT, 1881-Question, Mr.
Tuite; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) 1157
STATE OF IRELAND-TIHE ARMING OF ULsTER--Question, Mr. William
O'Brien; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1158
CURRENCY, &O.-GOLD COINAGE-Question, Mr. Kimber; Answer, The
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .... 1159
Poon LAW (IRELAND)-JoHN TAYLOR, RATE COLLECTOR FOR A DISTRICT OF
TIE LURGAN POOR LAW UNION-Question, Mr. O'Hanlon; Answer,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .1159
VENEZUELA THE TERRITORY OF TIIE YURUARY Question, Mr. Watt;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) 1160
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-PUNISHMENT OF SCHOOL CHILDREN-Question,
Mr. Herbert Gardner; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir
Lyon Playfair) ..... .. 1160
NAVY-H.M.S. COLLINGWOOD "-BURSTING OF THE 43-TON GUN-Ques-
tion, Sir Henry Tyler; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman) .... 1160
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA-THE JOINT COMMITTEE-Questions, Mr. James
Maclean, Lord Randolph Churchill; Answers, The First Lord of the
Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. .. .. 1161
SPAIN-THE COMMERCIAL CONVENTION-Question, Mr. Forwood; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 1162
VOL. CCOV. [THIRD SERIES.] [ e






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[ May 17.] Page
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-SCHOOL BOARDS AND VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS-Ques-
tion, Mr. Conway; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir
Lyon Playfair) ...... 1163
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-VENTILATION OF THE HOUSE-Question, Sir
Henry Roscoe; Answer, The Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of
Works (Sir James M'Garel-Hogg) .... 1164

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-

Government of Ireland Bill [Bill 181 J SECOND READING [ADJOURNED
DEBATE] [THIRD NIGHT]-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to
Question [10th May:] -Question again proposed, "That the word
now' stand part of the Question: "-Debate resumed .... 1165
After long debate, Moved, That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(M r.
Shaw Lejerre:)-Motion agreed to :-Debate further adjourned till To-
morrow.
Medical Acts Amendment Bill [Bill 163]-
Order for Committee read :--Moved, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair,"-(The Vice President of the Council, Sir Lyon Playfair) .. 1256
Question put, and agreed to:-Bill considered in Committee.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.
Trees (Ireland) Bill-
Lords Amendments considered .... 1256
One agreed to ; some agreed to with Amendments; some disagreed to.
Committee appointed, to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing
to the Amendments to which this House hath disagreed: "-List of the Committee.. 1260

Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill- Ordered (Mr. Charles Acland, Mr.
Mundella); presented, and read the first time [Bill 213] ... 1260
[1.0.]


LORDS, TUESDAY, MAY 18.
SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE-
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that Her Majesty had (by
Commission) appointed the Duke of Buckingham and Chandos Speaker
of the House in the absence of the Lord Chancellor: The said Com-
mission was read.
Trees (Ireland) Bill-
Returned from the Commons with one of the Amendments agreed to, some agreed to
with amendments, and some disagreed to, together with Reasons for such disagree-
ment: The Commons amendments and reasons to be printed. (No. 117.)
PRIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER No. 128)-.
The evidence taken before the Select Committee from time to time to be printed, for the
use of the Members of this House; but no copies thereof to be delivered, except to
Members of the Committee, until further order (No. 118.)
Hyde Park Corner (New Streets) Bill (No. 88)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a,"-(The First Commissioner of
Works, The Earl of Elgin) .. .. 1261
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2 accordingly, and cem-
mitted: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[May 18.] Page
Labourers (Ireland) Acts Amendment Bill (No. 51)-
House ifi Committee (according to Order) .... 1263
Bill to be printed, as amended, (No. 120.)
Companies Acts Amendment Bill (No. 82)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 21,"--(Te Secretary for Scotland, Tlhe
Earl of .Daloudse) .. .. .. 1271
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2' accordingly, and com-
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES ACT, 1875-Questions, The Earl of Iddesleigh; An-
swers, The Lord Chancellor (Lord Herschell) .. .. 1272
SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY (DURHAM) BILL (PETITIONS)-
MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE-
foved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the validity of all peti-
tions presented to this House for or against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on
Sunday (Durham) Bill, and of the signatures attached thereto, with a view to
ascertaining how far such signatures are or are not genuine,"-(The Earl of Wemyss) 1273
After short debate, Motion agreed to:-Committee appointed accordingly.
[7.0.]

COMMONS, TUESDAY, MAY 18.
QUESTIONS,
-0-o
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS-UNION OFFICIALS-Question, Mr. Alexander
Blane; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1277
PIERS AND HTARBOURS (IRELAND)-KINGSrowN HARBOUR-Question, Sir
Thomas Esmonde; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry
H. Fowler) .. .. .... .. 1278
SALMON FISIHERIE (IRELAND)-TIIE SUIR FISIERIES-Question, Mr. P. J.
Power; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1278
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-MID-DAY MAIL SERVICE FOR THE TOWN OF BAL-
LINAMORE, Co. LEITRIM-Question, Mr. Hayden; Answer, The Secre-
tary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 1279
Posr OFFICE (IRELnND)-MouTNTNORIS POST OFFICE-Question, Mr. Alex-
ander Blane; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Arnold
Morley) .. ...... .. 1279
CLARITY COMMISSIONERS-INK BEBRno CHARITIES Question, Dr. Foster;
Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .. 1280
HARBORS PUBLIC HARBOUR TRUSTS Question, Sir John Jenkins;
Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 1280
EXPENSES OF REGISTRATION OF ELECTIONS (IRELAND)-Question, Mr. Peter
M'Donald; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) ...... .... 1281
LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACT, 1870-APPEALS IN Co. DONEGAL--Question,
Mr. Bernard Kelly; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .... .... 1281
TIE CHANNEL ISLANDS-REVENUES OF GUERNSEY-Question, Mr. Boyd-
Kinnear; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. .... .. .. 1282
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND) DUNGANNON Questions, Mr. William
O'Brien; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1283
HOME RULE-THE METHODIST COMMITTEE OF PRIVILEGES, DUBLIN-Ques-
tion, Mr. Jordan; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. ........ 1284






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[May 18.] Page
PUBLIC HEALTI-SMALL-POX AT Wo0BURN, BUCKis-Question, Mr. Lawson;
Answer, The Secretary to the Local Government Board (Mr. Borlase) 1285
ARMY--TIE NILE EXPEDITIONS-TIE RATIONS-Question, Colonel Brook-
field; Answer, The Surveyor General of Ordnance (Mr. Woodall) .. 1286
ARMY-CONTRACTS FOR FORAGE-Question, Colonel Brookfield; Answer,
The Surveyor General of Ordnance (Mr. Woodall) .... 1286
ARMY-THE ORDNANCE SURVEY THE ROYAL ENGINEERs-Question,
Admiral Sir John Commerell; Answer, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord
of the Treasury) ...... .. 1286
SOUTH AFRICA-ZULULAND-THE PAPERS-Question, Mr. Baden-Powell;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne
Morgan) .. ...... .. 1287
THE PACIFIC BLOCKADE OF GREECE-Question, Mr. Crompton; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 1288
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL-THE SCHEDULES-Question, Mr. Raikes;
Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 1288
ARMS (IRELAND) BILL-Notice, Mr. Lewis; Question, Mr. T. M. Healy;
Answer, Colonel Waring .... .... 1289

MOTION.
0--
NOTICES OF MOTIONS AND ORDERS OF THE DAY-THE DEBATE ON THE
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL AND THE ARMS BILL-RESOLUTION-
loved, "That this day, and on succeeding Tuesdays and Fridays, the Order for
resuming the Adjourned Debate on the Second Reading of the Government of
Ireland Bill, when it is set down among the Orders of the Day, have precedence
of Notices of Motions and Orders of the Day,"-(Mr. Gladstone) .. .. 1289
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.

ORDER OF THE DAY.
-o-
Government of Ireland Bill [Bill 181] SECOND READING [ADJOURNED
DEBATE] FOURTH NIGIIT--
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to
Question [10th May:]-Question again proposed, "That the word
'now' stand part of the Question : "-Debate resumed .. .. 1299
After long debate, Moved, That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Mr.
Justin M'Carthy :)-Motion agreed to:--Debate further adjourned till
Thursday.

MOTIONS.
-o --
LOWE'S CHARITY (LloHCFIELD)-RESOLUTION-
Moved, That, in the opinion of this House, every Scheme of the Charity Commis-
sioners ought to provide for the majority of the Trustees or Managers being directly
elected by the ratepayers in the locality to which the Charity extends,"-(Sir John
Swsinburne) .. .. .. .. .. 1385
After short debate, Moved, That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Mr.
James Stuart:)-After further short debate, Question put :-The House
divided; Ayes 59, Noes 73; Majority 14.-(Div. List, No. 97.)
Original Question again proposed .. .... 1403
After short debate, Original Question put, and agreed to. .






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[May 18.1 Page
Coal Mines Regulation Bill-
Moved, That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the Regulation of Coal
Mines,"-(The Secretary of State for the Home Department, Mr. Childers) 1405
After short debate, Motion agreed to: Bill ordered (Mr. Secretary
Childers, Mr. Broadhurst); presented, and read the first time [Bill 217.]
Ulster Canal and Tyrone Navigation Bill [Bill 141]-
Moved, That Mr. Henry H. Fowler be a Member of the Committee,"-
(The Secretary to the Treasury, Mr. Arnold Morly) .. .1406
After short debate, Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Mr.
Arnold Morley :)-Motion agreed to:-Debate adjourned till Monday
next.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-0-
Conveyancing (Scotland) Act (1874) Amendment Bill [Bill 127]
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Dr. Cameron) .. 1407
After short debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 55, Noes
28.; Majority 27.-(Div. List, No. 98.)
Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday next.
Public Health Acts (Improvement Expenses) (re-committed)
Bill LBill 153]-
Order for Committee read .... .... 1411
Moved, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to amend
section 156 of The Public Health Act, 1875,' by extending its provisions to the erec-
tion of buildings in streets,"--(Captain Cotton.)
Motion agreed to.
Moved, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair,"-(Mr. William
Cook :)-Motion agreed to :-Bill considered in Committee.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Tuesday next.


Gas Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill-Ordered (Mr. Charles Acland, Mr. Mundella);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 214] .... .. 1412
Freshwater Fisheries Bill-Ordered (Mr. Charles Aeland, Mr. lMundella); presented,
and read the first time [Bill 218] .. .. .. .. 1413
[2.30.]
COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, MAY 19.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
-o--
Dundalk Gas Bill-
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow .. .. 1413

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o -
Poor Law Guardians (Ireland) Bill [Bill 5]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"--( r. Edward
Harrington) .. .. .... 1413
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"-(Colonel
King- Tarman.)






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
S[May 19.1 Page
Poir Law Guardians (Ireland) Bill-continued.
Question proposed, That the word now' stand part of the Question: "
-After debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 203, Noes
105; Majority 98.-(Div. List, No. 99.)
Main Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and committed
for To-morrow.
Railway Regulation Bill LBill 97]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. Channing) .. 1440
After debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and
committed to a Select Committee.
Parliamentary Voters (Registration) Bill [Bill 100]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Julian
Goldsmid) ...... 1465
And it being a quarter of an hour before Six of the clock, the Further
Proceeding on Second Reading stood adjourned till To-morrow.
Married Women (Maintenance in Case of Desertion)
Bill [Bill Ill]-
Order for Committee read .... .. 1465
Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to extend the
provisions of the Bill tothe maintenance of children deserted by their father,-(Mr.
Warmington.)
Further Proceeding on going into Committee deferred till Wednesday
2nd June.
MO TIONS.
o--
Barristers at Law and Advocates (Fees) Bill-Ordered (Mr. Boord, Mr. Ingram,
Mr. Lewis, Mr. Lawson, Mr. Hanbury) : presented, and read the first time [Bill 219] 1465
Distress for Rent Amendment Bill-Ordered (Mr. Burt, Mr. Arthlur Williams, Mr.
William Cook, AMr. Robson) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 220] .. 1466
Post Office Sites Bill-
Select Committee nominated :-List of the Committee .. .. 1466
[5.55.]
LORDS, THURSDAY, MAY 20.
Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill (No. 95)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a,"-(The Secretary for Scotland, The
Earl of Dalhousie) .. 1466
After debate, Motion agreed to:-Bill read 2= accordingly, and committed
to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
Oxford University (Justices) Bill [n.L.]--Presented (The Lord Chancellor) ; read 1I
(No. 110) .. .. .. 1494
[6.45.]
COMMONS, THURSDAY, MAY 20.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
-o--
Dundalk Gas Bill (by Order)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now taken into Consideration,"-(MJr. Dillwyn) 1495
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"--(Mr.
Nolan.)






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[Mlay 20.] Page
Dundalk Gas Bill (by Order)-continued.
Question proposed, That the word now stand part of the Question: "
-After short debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 169,
Noes 210; Majority 41.-(Div. List, No. 100:)-Words added.
Main. Question, as amended, put, and agreed to:-Consideration, as
amended, put offor six months.

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
-o-
Police and Improvement (Scotland) Provisional Order
(Leith) Bill [Bill 197]-
Order for Second Reading read .... 1516
After short debate, Bill read a second time, and committed.

Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
NAVY-COMMISSIONS FOR SEAMEN OF THE FLEET-Questions, Captain
Verney, Captain Price; Answers, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr.
Hibbert) .......... 1516
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-RENARD POINT PIER-Question, Mr.
John O'Connor (Tipperary, S.); Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Mr. John Morley) ...... .. 1517
FIRES (METROPOLIS)-FATAL FIRE IN BEAK STREET-Question, Sir Henry
Selwin-Ibbetson; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment (Mr. Childers) .. .. 1517
SEA FISHERIES ACT (ScoTLAND)-FORESHORES-Question, Mr. Macfarlane;
Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. .. 1518
TRADE AND COMMERCE-IMITATION BRITISH TRADE MARKs--Question,
Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. .. 1519
THE WESTERN PACIFIC-REPRISALS OF NATIVES-Question, Dr. Cameron;
Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. 1519
Poon LAw (IRELAND) CLAREMORRIS INTIMIDATION Question, Mr.
Dillon; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1520
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT, 1884-REQUISITION FORMS-TIE
RATE COLLECTORS OF MOUNTMELLICK UNION-Questions, Mr. Arthur
O'Connor; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) ...... .. .. 1520
SOUTH AMERICA-THE ARGENTINE REPUBLIC-Question, Lord Frederick
Hamilton; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) .......... 1521
AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS ACT-FISHERMEN ON THE NORTH-EAST COAST OF
SCOTLAND-QuestiOn, Mr. Esslemont; Answer, The Lord Advocate
(Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. ..... 1522
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-HOLYIIEAD PIER-Question, Lord Claud
Hamilton; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. ... .. 1522
ARMS (IRELAND) BILL-Question, Mr. Mitchell Henry; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ...... 1523
INDIA-CALCUTTA CUSTOM HOUSE-ADULTERATION OF M'GAVIN AND CO.'S
WVHISKY-Question, Sir Robert Fowler; Answer, The Under Secretary
of State for India (Mr. Stafford Howard) .. .1524
NAVY-H.M.S. "COLOSSUS "-THE 43-TON GUNS-Questions, Lord Charles
Beresford, Mr. Bethell, Lord Randolph Churchill; Answers, The Se-
cretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert), The Surveyor General of
Ordnance (Mr. Woodall) .. .. .. 1524






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ fay 20.] Page
IRELAND ALLEGED CATTLE STEALING Question, Captain M'Calmont;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1526
INLAND FISHERIES (IRELAND) POISONING FISH Question, Captain
M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .......... 1526
LAW AND POLICE (IRELAND)-ALLEGED RIOT AT LISTOWEL-Question,
Captain M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) ...... 1527
RAILWAYS (METROPOLIS)-TIE PADDINGTON AND LIMEHOUSE RAILWAY-
Question, Mr. Cremer; Answer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade
(Mr. C. T. D. Acland) ........ 1528
METROPOLITAN RATING PARISH OF PUTNEY Question, Mr. Kimber;
Answer, The President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Stansfeld) 1528
PRISONS (IRELAND) OMAGI GAOL Question, Lord Ernest Hamilton;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1529
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-Questions, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach; Answers,
The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 1530

ORDERS OF T E DA Y.
-0-
Arms (Ireland) Bill [Bill 205]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Te Chief Secretary
for Ireland, Mr. John Morley) .. 1530
After long debate, Question put: The House divided; Ayes 303,
Noes 89; Majority 214.
Division List, Ayes and Noes ...... 1609
Bill committed for Monday next.

Losses by Riot (Compensation) Bill [Bill 209]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(The Secretary of
State for the Home Department, JMr. Childers) .... 1612
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted for Monday next.

Freshwater Fisheries Bill [Bill 2181-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Tie Secretary
to the Board of Trade, Mr. C. T. D. Acland) .... 1614
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted for Monday next.

Stannaries Act (1869) Amendment Bill [Bill 203]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir John
St. Aubyn) .. .... .. .. 1616
Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Mr. Conybeare:)-After
short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time.
After further short debate, Bill committed for Thursday 3rd June.

Mining Leases (Cornwall and Devon) Bill [Bill 204]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir John
St. Aubyn) .. ...... 1625
Moved, That the Debate be now adjourned,"--(Mr. Conybeare :)-After
short debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 72, Noes 69;
Majority 3.-(Div. List, No. 102.)
Debate adjourned till Thursday 3rd June,






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LfMay 20.] Page
MOTIONS.
-o-
Parliamentary Elections (Ireland) (Clerical Interference)-
Moved, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prevent Clerical interference before,
at, and during a Parliamentary Election in Ireland,"-(Captain A'Calmont) .. 1628
After short debate, Question put, and negatived.
Police Forces (Removal of Disabilities) Bill-
Moved, That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the removal of disabilities of the
Police Forces to Vote at Parliamentary Elections in Great Britain,"- (dur. Tottenham) 1631
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill ordered (Mr. Tottenham, Sir
William Hart Dyke, Sir Julian Goldsmid, Viscount Grimston, Mr.
Biddulyp, Colonel Ifing-Harman, Air. Rylands); presented, and read
the first time [Bill 221.]
Public Parks and Works (Metropolis) Bill-Ordered (Alr. Henry H. Fowler, Mr.
Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Leveson Gower) .. .. .. 1635
[2.0.]
LORDS, FRIDAY, MAY 21.
Ionian Bank Bill-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2 ,"-(The Chairman of Committees,
The Duke of Buckingham) ........ 1635
Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2" accordingly.
NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY-Question, Observations, Viscount Hardinge;
Reply, The First Commissioner of Works (The Earl of Elgin) .. 1635
THE NEW WAR OFFICE AND ADMIRALTY-Question, Viscount Sidmouth;
Answer, The First Commissioner of Works (The Earl of Elgin) .. 1638
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday (Durham) Bill (No. 59)
House in Committee (according to Order) .. .. 1638
Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Mfonday next;
and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 123.)
Customs and Inland Revenue Bill (No. 112)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3-,"-(The Lord Sudeley) .. 1648
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 3' accordingly, and
passed.
British North America Bill (No. 116)-
House in Committee (according to Order) .. .. 1649
Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3 on Mfonday next.
Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill [n.L.]-Presented (The Lord President): read 11
(No. 122) .......... 1649
[6.0.]
COMMONS, FRIDAY, MAY 21.
Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
NAVY-H.M.S. "COLLINuwooD "-BURasrIN 01 'THE 43-roN GUN-Ques-
tions, Captain Price, Mr. Carbutt; Answers, The Surveyor General of
Ordnance (Mr. Woodall) ... 1650
WAR DEPARTMENT-MANUFACTURE OF GuNs-Question, Sir John Kennaway;
Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) 1652
,MINES REGULATION ACT WEIGHTS AND MEASURES Question, Mr.
Forwood; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Childers) .. .. .. 1652
ROYAL IisHO COSrTABULARY-PBROMITION-Questions, 'Mr. T. M. Healy;
Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ,, 1658
V05. 000 V. [nMTlll 8EiEi;.] [ f






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

L[May 21.] Page
BRITISH COMMERCIAL INTERESTS ABROAD-DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR RE-
PRESENTATIVES-Questions, Mr. Howard Vincent, Mr. Hutton; An-
swers, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 1654
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION-Questions, Sir Bernhard
Samuelson, Mr. P. M'Donald; Answers, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .... 1655
INLAND NAVIGATION AND DRAINAGE (IRELAND)-THE RIVER BANN-Ques-
tions, Mr. T. M. Healy; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H Fowler) ....... 1656
MERCHANT SHIPPING--WRECK OF THE BARQUE CARIWELL "-Question, Dr.
Tanner; Answer, The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duff) 1657
NAVY (ARMAMEINT, &c.)-THE 43-TON GUN-Question, Mr. Carbutt; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. .. 1658
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-UNION AMALGAMATION-Questions, Mr. Marum, Mr.
Sexton; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1659
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-SCHOOLS ON THE CONTINENT-MR. MATTHEW
ARNOLD'S REPORT--Questions, Sir Henry Holland; Answers, The Vice
President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) 1659
SALMON AND FRESHWATER FISHERIES-TRANSFER TO THE BOARD OF TRADE-
Questions, Mr. Portman; Answers, The President of the Board of
Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. ...... 1660
POLITICAL DEMONSTRATIONS-MILITARY BANDs-Questions, Mr. Labouchere,
Mr. Coote, Sir Herbert Maxwell; Answers, The Secretary of State
for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .... .. 1660
NAVY-CONTRACTS FOR CRUISERS WITH PRIVATE BUILDERS-Questions, Mr.
Jacks; Answers, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. 1662
THE DEBATE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL-Questions, Observa-
tions, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach; Questions, Mr. T. M. Healy, Mr.
Labouchere; Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E.
Gladstone); Observations, The Marquess of Hartington .. 1663
SITTINGS AND ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE-THE DERBY DAY-Notice, Mr.
Labouchere .... .. .... 1666
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA-TIE JOINT COMMITTEE-Question, Mr. Magniac;
Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 1666
THE ESTIMATES-VOTE ON AccOUNT-Question, Sir Walter B. Barttelot;
Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman).. 1667
ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
--o
Government of Ireland Bill [Bill 181] SECOND READING [ADJOURNED
DEBATEl FIFTH NIGHTJ-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed
to Question [10th May], That the Bill be now read a second time: "
-Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the
Question: "-Debate resumed .. .. 1667
After long debate, Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-
(Viscount Lymington :)-Motion agreed to :-Debate fur their adjourned till
Monday next.
Cottagers' Allotment Gardens Bill [Bill 186]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"--( r. Chaplin) .. 1780
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end
of the Question to add the words upon this day six months,"-( Jir.
Arch.)
Question proposed, "That the word now' stand part of the Question: "
-After short debate, Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"
(Mr. Johns:)-After further short debate, Question put:-The
House divided; Ayes 106, Noes 91; Majority 15.-(Div. List, No. 103 :)
--Debate adjourned till Monday next.







'TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[May 21.]' Page
MOTIONS.
0-
Local Government Provisional Orders (Gas) Bill Ordered (Mr. Borlase, Mr.
Stansfeld); presented, and read the first time [Bill 222] .. .. 1792
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill-Ordered (Mr. Borlase, Mr.
Stansfeld); presented, and read the first time [Bill 223] .. 1792
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill-Ordered (Mr. Borlase, Mr.
Stansfeld); presented, and read the first time [Bill 224] .... 1793
Local Government Provisional Order (County Divisions) Bill Ordered (Mr.
Borlase, Mr. Stansfeld) ; presented, and read the first time IBill 225] .. 1793
Friendly Societies Act (1875) Amendment Bill Ordered (Mr. Norton, Viscount
Folkestone, Sir Herbert Marwell, Mr. HIoyle); presented, and read the first time
[Bill 228] .. ..... .. 1793
[1.45.j

LORDS, MONDAY, MAY 24.
Marriage with a Deceased Wife's Sister Bill (No. 62)-
Moved, That the Bill he now read 2a,"-(The Duke of Saint MAbans) .. 1793
Amendment moved, to leave out ("now,") and add at the end of the
Motion (" this day six months,")-( The Duke of Argyll.)
After debate, on Question, That (" now") stand part of the Motion? their
Lordships divided; Contents 127, Not-Contents 149; Majority 22:-
Resolved in the negative.
Division List, Contents and Not-Contents .... 1818
Bill to be read 2, on this day six months. [7.45.]


COMMONS, MONDAY, MAY 24.

Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
Posr OFFICE-SECRECY OF TELEGRAMIS-Question, Dr. Cameron; Answer,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 1821
ROYAL Inisa CONSTABUL~I.Y-PENSIONS-Question, Sir Thomas Esmonde;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1822
INCOME TAX (GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND) -- Question, Sir Joseph
M'Kenna; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. .. .. 1823
SCOTLAND---LAND OF SIKYE-ScHoor, AND PooR RATES-Question, Mr.
Fraser-Mackintosh; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) 1823
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-DISTURBANCES NEAR CooKSTowN-Question,
Mr. T. M. Healy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. .... 1824
ARis (IRELAND) ACT-LICENCEs-Question, Mr. Gilhooly; Answer, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1824
ADMIRALTY-PAY or COASTGUARDSMEN-Question, The Earl of March;
Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. 1826
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL-THE CIVIL SEBVANTS-Question, Mr. Stanley
Leighton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1826
POLICE SUPERANNUATION BILL-Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer,
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 1827
Poon LAW (IRELAND)-EDENDERRY INFIRMARY-Question, Mr. Biggar;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morloy) .. 1827
NAVY (ORDNANCE, &c.)-NAVAL GUNs--Questions, Commander Bethell, Mr.
Carbutt; Answeis, The Surveyor General of Ordnanco (Mr. Woodall) 182k







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

L31ay 24.1 Pag"
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION IN SCHOOL BOARD SCHOOLS
-Question, Sir R. Assheton Cross; Answer, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .. 1829
SECRET SERVICE MONEY-Questions, Mr. Albert Grey, Mr. Brodrick, Mr.
Boord, Sir Julian Goldsmid; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. 1829
NORTH AMERICA-CANADIAN FISHERIES-Question, Sir Frederick Stanley;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne
Morgan) .. .. .. 1831
ARMY QUARTERMASTERS-Question, Colonel Duncan; Answer, The Secre-
tary of State for War (Mr. Campbell Bannerman) .... 1832
INLAND REVENUE-INCOME TAX ON FOREIGN RESIDENTS-Question, Colonel
Hughes Hallett; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir
William Harcourt) ........ 1833
EVICTIONS (SCOTLAND) -ARDNAMTUROHAN-Question, Mr. Macfarlane; An-
swer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .... 1833
TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION IN BOARD SCHOOLS-Question, Sir Bernhard
Samuelson; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon
Playfair) ... .. .. 1833
NAVY-H.M.S. COLLINGOOOD "-BURSTING OF THE 43-TON Gux- Question,
Mr. Seager Hunt; Answer, The Surveyor General of Ordnance (Mr.
Woodall) .. .. .. 1834
NAvY-H.M.S. CALYPSO "-Question, Captain Verney; Answer, The
Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) ... 1834
CATTLE MARKETS WEIGHING MACHINES Question, Mr. Seton-Karr;
Answer, The Secretary tolthe Board of Trade (Mr. C. T. D. Acland) .. 1835
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS-EXPENSES OF THE FRANCHISE-Questions, Mr.
Leahy, Mr. P. J. O'Brien, Mr. P. M'Donald; Answers, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .... 1835
THE DEBATE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL-Questions, Mr.
Richard, Mr. T. P. O'Connor, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach; Answers, The
First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone:)-Short debate
thereon ...... .. 1836

ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-0-
SUPPLY-considered in Committee-CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DE-
PARTMENTS- (In the Committee.)
(i.) Motion made, and Question proposed, 'That a further sum, not exceeding
2,266,400, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the
Charge for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year
ending on the 31st day of March 1887, viz:- [Then the several Services are
set forth] .. .. .... 1842
Moved, That the Item of 5,000, for Secret Service, be omitted from the proposed
Vote,"-(Mr. Rylands :)-After debate, Question put:-The Committee divided;
Ayes 44, Noes 319 ; Majority 275.-(Div. List, No. 104.)
Original Question again proposed .. ... 1872
After short debate, Moved, "That the Item of 2,500 (Scotch Fishery Board), be
omitted from the proposed Vote,"--.(r. Biggar:)-After further short debate,
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question again proposed ........ 1901
After debate, Mfoved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit
again,"- (Mr. Brodricek:)-After further short debate, Motion, by leave, with-
drawn.
Original Question again proposed ....... 1951
Moved, "That the Item of 2,000 (Registrar General, Ireland), be omitted from the
proposed Vote,"-(Mr. Chance:)-After short debate, Motion, by leave, witldawn.
Original Question again proposed ........ 1939
After short debate, Moved, That the Item of 20,000, for Superannuation and Re-
tired Allowances, be reduced by the sum of 160,"-(Captain Verney :)-Question
put, and negative.
Original Question again proposed .. .... 1964







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

LMay 24.] Page
SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS--Committee-eontinued.
Moved, "That the Item of 120,000, for the Post Office Telegraphs, be reduced by
the sum of 100,"-(Dr. Cameron :)-After short debate, Question put:--The
Committee divided; Ayes 54, Noes 116; Majority 62.-(Div. List, No. 105.)
Original Question again proposed ........ 1969
After short debate, Original Question put, and agreed to.
ARMY.
(2.) 3,282,000, Provisions, Forage, &c.
NAVY ESTIMATES.
(3.) 207,600, Coast Guard Service and Royal Naval Reserves, &c.
(4.) 113,200, Scientific Branch.-After short debate, Vote agreed to .. 1971
(5.) 812,900, Half-Pay, Reserved Half-Pay, and Retired Pay to Officers of the
Navy and Marines.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again upon
Wednesday.
Ulster Canal and Tyrone Navigation Bill [Bill 141]-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [18th May :]-
Question again proposed :-Debate resumed .... 1974
Question put, and agreed to:-Other Members nominated.

DIVORCE BILLS-
Select Committee nominated :-List of the Committee .. .. 1974
[2.30-]





















LORD S.

-o--

SAT FIRST.
MONDAY, MAY 17.
The Lord Forester, after the death of his brother.

MONDAY, MAY 24.
The Lord Brougham and Vaux, after the death of his father.







COMMONS.

-0-

NEW MEMBERS SWORN.
MONDAY, MAY 3.
Bradford (Central Division)-- ight Hon. George Shaw Lefevre.
North-East Lancashire (Clitheroe .Division)-Right Hon. Sir Ughtred James Kay-
Shuttleworth, baronet.
Ipswich-Hugo Richard Charteris, commonly called Lord Elcho.


















HANSARD'S


PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

IN THE


SIRST SESSION OF THE TWENTY-THIRD PARLIAMENT OF THE

UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND,

APPOINTED TO MEET 12 JANUARY, 1886, IN THE FORTY-NINTH

YEAR OF THE REIGN OF


HER MAJESTY QUEEN VICTORIA.



FOURTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1886.


HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Monday, 19th April, 1886.


MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLs-Ordered -- First
Reading-Tramways Provisional Orders (No.
1) [195]; Gas Provisional Orders (No. 1) *
[196]; Police and Improvement (Scotland)
Provisional Order (Leith) [1 7].
First Reading- Lunacy Acts Amendment*
[198].
Select Committee Employers' Liability Act
(1880) Amendment* (60), Colonel Blundell
and Mr. Hingley added.
Committee Police Forces Enfranchisement
[3], deferred.
Committee-Report-Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2)
[Sixth Night] [118-200].
VOL. CCCV. [THIRD SERIES.]


PRIVATE BUSINESS.
-0-
NORTH METROPOLITAN TRAMWAYS
(No. 2) BILL.
SECOND READING.
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Bill be now read a second
time."-(Sir Charles Forster.)
MR. T. H.BOLTON (St. Pancras, N.):
I had placed upon the Paper a Notice
of my intention to move that this Bill
should be referred to a Hybrid Com-
mittee; but having regard to the course
adopted by the House on Friday upon
the Cricklewood, Kilburn, and Harrow
Road Tramways Bill, I do not propose
to move that Reference. I prefer to
act upon the suggestion of the hon.
B


















HANSARD'S


PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

IN THE


SIRST SESSION OF THE TWENTY-THIRD PARLIAMENT OF THE

UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND,

APPOINTED TO MEET 12 JANUARY, 1886, IN THE FORTY-NINTH

YEAR OF THE REIGN OF


HER MAJESTY QUEEN VICTORIA.



FOURTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1886.


HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Monday, 19th April, 1886.


MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLs-Ordered -- First
Reading-Tramways Provisional Orders (No.
1) [195]; Gas Provisional Orders (No. 1) *
[196]; Police and Improvement (Scotland)
Provisional Order (Leith) [1 7].
First Reading- Lunacy Acts Amendment*
[198].
Select Committee Employers' Liability Act
(1880) Amendment* (60), Colonel Blundell
and Mr. Hingley added.
Committee Police Forces Enfranchisement
[3], deferred.
Committee-Report-Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2)
[Sixth Night] [118-200].
VOL. CCCV. [THIRD SERIES.]


PRIVATE BUSINESS.
-0-
NORTH METROPOLITAN TRAMWAYS
(No. 2) BILL.
SECOND READING.
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Bill be now read a second
time."-(Sir Charles Forster.)
MR. T. H.BOLTON (St. Pancras, N.):
I had placed upon the Paper a Notice
of my intention to move that this Bill
should be referred to a Hybrid Com-
mittee; but having regard to the course
adopted by the House on Friday upon
the Cricklewood, Kilburn, and Harrow
Road Tramways Bill, I do not propose
to move that Reference. I prefer to
act upon the suggestion of the hon.
B







(Pensions). 4


Gentleman the Chairman of the Com-
mittee of Ways and Means (Mr. Court-
ney), and to move for the appointment of
a Select Committee to inquire into the
operation of the Tramways Act, 1870,
the powers of Tramways Companies,
and the management of tramways.
Motion agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed.

PRIVATE BILLS.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 39 and 129 be
suspended, and that the time for depositing
Petitions against Private Bills, or against any
Bill to confirm any Provisional Order, or Pro-
visional Certificate, and for depositing Dupli-
cates of any Documents relating to any Bill to
.confirm any Provisional Order, or Provisional
Certificate, be extended to Monday 3rd May.-
(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
ARMY-THE PURCHASE SYSTE3M-
PURCHASE LIEUTENANTS.
SmIR RICHARD PAGET (Somerset,
Wells) asked the Secretary of State for
War, Whether Officers in the Army,
having paid 700 or more in the pur-
chase of their Lieutenancies previous to
the Abolition of Purchase in the Army,
will be allowed, on retirement from the
Service, any advantages in respect of
the money so paid; and, whether Officers,
having entered the Army since the Aboli-
tion of Purchase, and paid nothing for
their Commissions, will receive the same
retiring allowances as others having paid
large sums?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN) (Stirling, &c.) :
This Question was fully answered on
August 4, 1881, by my right hon. Friend
the present Home Secretary. The sug-
gestion is, I suppose, based on the fact
that a purchase captain does in his re-
tired pay receive some compensation for
his purchase money; but I would point
out that such compensation is given only
in respect of the over-regulation sum
which the captain could have realized
on selling his commission. This averaged
from 600 to 700; and if the officer
attained higher rank before being pen-
sioned it was held that the increased
retired pay of the higher rank included
all compensation due to purchase rights.
In the case of purchase lieutenants the
over-regulation money was only 100
Mr. T. H. Bolton


on the average, and as they must
necessarily be pensioned from a higher
rank no question of compensation can
arise.

ARMY (PENSIONS)-CASE OF JAMES
KELLY, ARMY PENSIONER.
MR. P. O'BRIEN (Monaghan, N.)
asked the Secretary of State for War,
Whether it is true that James Kelly,
Army pensioner, Newbliss, county Mona-
ghan, late of the 16th Brigade Royal
Artillery, was engaged in service in
Meerut, East India, when, by the cap-
sizing of a field gun, he sustained such
serious injuries that he was under
medical treatment from December 1872
to March 1874, when he was discharged
from the RoyalVictoria Hospital, Netley,
after having one of his arms amputated,
a portion of his left jaw, which was
fractured, removed, with the sight of
one of his eyes seriously affected, and
his hearing almost destroyed; whether
he was discharged on a pension of one
shilling per day for eighteen months,
which was subsequently, after submit-
ting himself to two medical examina-
tions, increased to one shilling and six
pence per day for life; whether Kelly
applied for, and was granted, a further
medical examination, which was held at
Armagh in August 1883, with the view
of establishing his claim to a higher
pension, at which examination, owing
to the fact that he was only required to
answer the usual formal questions not
applicable to the gravity of his case,
and, being very nervous and delicate at
the time, he failed to direct the medical
examiner's attention to the number and
nature of his injuries; whether Kelly
since forwarded to the War Office a
petition, accompanied by the recommen-
dations of eight medical doctors, praying
for another medical examination, the
expenses of which he declared his will-
ingness to bear, and which prayer was
refused; and, whether, taking into con-
sideration the services, sufferings, losses,
and present deplorable condition of this
man, he will afford him the desired oppor-
tunity, by another medical examination,
of proving his claim to a more generous
pension ?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN) (Stirling, &c.):
Sir, steps are being taken to have a
full inquiry into the case of this pen-
sioner,


{COMMONS}


3 Army






m1lililary Ten ts. 6


POOR LAW (IRELAND -GLIN UNION,
CO. LEITRIM- QUALIFICATION
FOR GUARDIAN.
MR. STACK (Kerry, N.) asked the
Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, Whether the rating qualifi-
cation for a guardian in the Leitrim
(county Kerry) division of Glin Union is
25, and only five persons resident in
the division are rated over that amount,
of whom two are disqualified by being
evicted from their farms; whether he is
aware that at the last election the rate-
payers had to nominate a candidate who
does not live in the Leitrim division but
in the county Limerick; and, whether
he would consider the advisability of
recommending the Local Government
Board to lower the rating in this division
to 15?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY(Mr. JoHN
MORLEY) (Newcastle on Tyne) : The
facts are substantially as stated in the
Question. It is the intention of the
Local Government Board to consider the
question of reducing the qualification
before the next election occurs in the
division.

LIGHTHOUSES (IRELAND) BERE-
HAVEN LIGHTHOUSE.
Mn. GILHOOLY(Cork,W.) asked the
President of the Board of Trade, If he is
aware that it is essentially necessary for
the success of the fishing industry in
Bantry Bay that the Lighthouse at the
western end of Bere Ireland should be
utilised; and, if he will take the neces-
sary steps to accomplish that object ?
THE PRESIDENT (Mr. MUNDELLA)
(Sheffield, Brightside) : The Commis-
sioners of Irish Lights inform me that
before the tower at the western end of
Bere Island was finished the idea of ex-
hibiting a light from it was abandoned,
owing to the difficulty of sailing vessels
navigating up the western channel in
consequence of its narrowness. On this
decision being taken the present Bere-
haven Light was at once commenced.

INLAND REVENUE (INCOME TAX)-
BUILDING SOCIETIES.
MR. O. V. MORGAN (Battersea)
asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer,
Whether, seeing that several permanent
Building Societies still refuse to allow
Income Tax on interest, he will instruct


the Solicitor to the Inland Revenue to
enforce penalties for each refusal in
accordance with the Act 16 and 17 Vic.
c. 34, s. 40 ?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-
QUER (Sir WILLIAMHARCOURT) (Derby):
These instructions are not necessary.
The solicitor to the Inland. Revenue is
always prepared, under instructions from
the Board of Inland Revenue, to insti-
tute proceedings for penalties in any
cases where they appear to have been
incurred. All cases of refusal on the
part of Building Societies to allow In-
come Tax on interest which have
hitherto been brought under the notice
of the Board of Inland Revenue have
been satisfactorily settled without the
aid of legal proceedings.

THE MAGISTRACY (SCOTLAND)-THE
GAELIC LANGUAGE.
MR. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire) asked the Lord Advocate,
Whether, in filling up the vacant office
of Sheriff Substitute at Portree, he will
take care that the person to be appointed
shall have, with other qualifications, a
knowledge of the Gaelic language ?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c): It is, no
doubt, desirable that officials in the
Highlands should be able to speak
Gaelic, if this qualification can be ob-
tained with the other qualifications
requisite. The point will be duly con-
sidered in filling up the office referred
to.

ARMY STORES-MIILITARY TENTS.
MR. D. SULLIVAN (Westmeath, S.)
(for Mr. MURPHY) asked the Secretary
of State for War, Whether the Military
tents stored at Arbour Hill Barracks,
Dublin, were formerly kept in repair
locally and in a satisfactory manner;
whether, of late years, it is the practice
to get those tents repaired in England
at a greater cost, including carriage
both ways, than before the present
system was adopted; what was the
reason of this change; and, will arrange-
ments be made that the repairs shall in
future be executed in Dublin ?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN) (Stirling, &c.) :
No change has been made in the system
of having tents repaired. Tents stored
in Dublin are repaired there by local


5 Army Stores--


JAPR(IL 19, 18861






7Westminster. 8


labour, and in the interests of economy
local repairs are always encouraged.
When tents in Ireland are condemned
locally they are forwarded to Woolwich
for ultimate disposal. Occasionally these
are found susceptible of repair, and
after repair would be re-issued. Pos-
sibly the case of some of these tents
may have suggested the hon. Member's
Question.

REGISTRATION OF VOTERS-THE
VESTRY CLERK OF ST. PANCREAS.
Mn. BAGGALLAY (Lambeth, Brix-
ton) asked the President of the Local Go-
vernment Board, Whether he is aware
that, by the byelaws of the vestry of St.
Pancras (Part III. Rule 7), one of the
duties of the vestry clerk and clerk to the
directors of thepoor to prepare the lists of
voters and to attend at the revision of such
lists, and that the vestry clerk received
the sum of 10 10s. for doing one or
both of such duties in 1885; whether it
is any part of the duty of the overseers
or their clerk to collect information as
to lodgers' claims at the expense of the
ratepayers; is he aware that Mr. George
Harrison, chief clerk of the vestry, re-
presented Mr. Gibb, the vestry clerk, at
the revising barrister's court in 1885,
and shortly afterwards issued the fol-
lowing Circular to the officers of the
vestry-
Dear Sir,-A meeting of the officers of the
vestry and guardians will be held in the Board
Rooms on Monday next at 5.30 p.m. to consider
the steps to be taken to assist Mr. Gibb in his
Parliamentary candidature. Your attendance
is particularly requested.
Yours faithfully,
Alfred A. Millward,
"George Harrison;"
and, will he take steps to provide, by
legislation or otherwise, that, in future,
no official, whose duty it may be to pre-
pare the lists of voters, take active part
either as a candidate or active political
partisan in any Parliamentary election
within the district in which he is em-
ployed ?
THE PRESIDENT (Mr. STANSFELD)
(Halifax): It appears that such a bye-law
as that referred to in the first part of
the Question was made more than 30
years ago; but I am informed that it is
now, practically, obsolete. A sum of 10
guineas was paid to the Vestry Clerk as
an acknowledgment of the assistance
given to the Revising Barrister at the
Mr. Campbell-Bannerman


evening sittings, the cost of the prepara-
tion of the list of voters being about
900. I understand that it is not the
duty of the overseers of the parish to
obtain information as to lodgers' claims
at the expense of the rates, and that no
expense was incurred by them under
this head. Mr. Harrison did represent
the Vestry Clerk at the Revising Bar-
rister's Court in 1885, and the letter
referred to in the Question was circu-
lated among the officers of the Guar-
dians and Vestry. As regards the con-
cluding inquiry, which is of a general
character, I can only say that if an officer
who has duties in connection with the
preparation of the list of voters is to be
precluded from becoming a candidate in
a Parliamentary election within the dis-
trict in which he is employed, it can only
be done by express legislation, and that
this is a matter which may have to be con-
sidered in connection with any Registra-
tion Bill which may be introduced by
the Government.
Ma. BAGGALLAY : Is the right hon.
Gentleman prepared to suggest that the
question should be dealt with in such a
Bill ?
Mn. STANSFELD: I am not pre-
pared to make any suggestion; but I
can promise the matter will have atten-
tion.

PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-VENTILA-
TION OF THE HOUSE.
Mn. BAUMANN (Camberwell, Peck-
ham) asked the honourable Member for
Manchester (South), Chairman of the
Ventilation Committee, Whether the
temporary but effective measures for pre-
venting, as much as possible, the air of
the Palace of Westminster from being
contaminated with sewer gas emanating
from the low level sewer of the main
drainage of the Metropolis, adverted to
in the interim Report of the Committee,
will be carried out during the Easter
Recess ?
SiR HENRY ROSCOE (Manchester,
S.), in reply, said, that the Committee
on the Ventilation of the House brought
under the notice of the proper officer of
Her Majesty's Board of Works the de-
sirability of at once carrying out the
temporary measures referred to in the in-
terim Report of the Committee for effec-
tually preventing the air of the Palace
of Westminster from being contaminated
with sewer gas emanating from the low


COMMONS I


7 Palace of






9Th1


level sewer of the main drainage of the
Metropolis, and they had received the
assurance of that officer that the pro-
posed measures could, in his opinion, be
executed before the House re-assembled
after the Easter Recess. They had,
moreover, reason to believe that the
Board of Works did not look otherwise
than favourably on the proposal.
MR. BAUMANN said, what he
wanted to know was not whether the
works could be done, but whether they
would be done ?
SmI HENRY ROSCOE said, that the
Committee had no power to order the
works to be carried out.
MR. LEVESON GOWER (A LOKD of
the TREASURY) (Stafford, N.W.) said,
that the Board of Works fully recog-
nized the importance of having the works
done at once. It was a very important
matter. No effort would be spared, and
they were in hopes that the improve-
ments would be finished by the time the
House met again.

LAW AND JUSTICE (SCOTLAND)-
CIRCUIT COURTS.
MR. E. ROBERTSON (Dundee) asked
the Lord Advocate, If his attention has
been called to the fact that there are no
prisoners for trial at the Circuit Court
appointed to be held at Dundee on the
20th April; and, whether he will con-
sider the propriety of making such
arrangements as will in future avoid the
inconvenience and expense of holding
Circuit Courts when there is little or no
business to be done ?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): It is true
that there are no prisoners for trial at the
Circuit Court to be held at Dundee to-
morrow. But it is possible that there
may be complaints and civil appeals;
and, further, as the Court is held under
statutory authority, no such arrange-
ments as the hon. Member points at can
be made by the Judges. As no jury-
men have been summoned, and the offi-
cials only require to attend, the incon-
venience and expense occasioned by the
holding of the Court will not be serious.

INDIA-VETERINARY SURGEONS.
MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHY (Long-
ford, N.) asked the Under Secretary of
State for India, Whether it is intended
to reduce the number of Senior Vete-


rinary Surgeons in India, and to supply
their places with Junior Veterinary Sur-
geons from the Indian Civil Service;
and, whether, at present, the number of
skilled surgeons is found insufficient for
the work, owing to the amount of con-
tagious disease among elephants, horses,
and mules ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Mr. STAFFORD HOWARD) (Glou-
cester, Thornbury): As was stated to
the House on March 12 last, in reply to
a Question from the hon. and gallant
Member for Holborn (Colonel Duncan),
a reduction in the Veterinary Establish-
ment in India has been sanctioned by
the Secretary of State in Council, on the
recommendation of the Government of
India. There is, however, so far as I
am aware, no desire to alter the existing
proportions of senior and junior officers
in the Department. There is at present
no Civil Veterinary Department in
India; but the creation of a Civil
branch of the Service is at present under
consideration. No representation has
been made by the Government of India
that the number of skilled surgeons in
the country is insufficient.

THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)--MR. W.
L. BOLE, J.P., CO. LONGFORD.
MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHY (Long-
ford, N.) asked the Chief Secretary to
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whe-
ther it is the fact that Mr. William L.
Bole, a magistrate for the county of
Longford, refused to sign the statutory
declaration of Patrick Kelly and others
for proxy votes at the recent election of
a Guardian for the Agharra Electoral
Division of the Ballymahon Union; whe-
ther the day on which the proxies were
tendered was the last day on which
they could be signed; and, whether, in
consequence, the proxies were of no
avail ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY(Mr. JOHN
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne), in reply,
said, that he was informed that at the
time Mr. Bole was applied to he was
extremely busy, and told Kelly there
were two other magistrates in the town
who could sign the paper, and referred
him to them. There being no contest
or second nomination in the Electoral
Division for the last three years, it did
not appear to have in any way affected
the result of the election.


fAPiuL 19, 18861


(Irelandt). 10







11 Lighthouses


THE ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE-
VACANT LAND.
Mn. T. H. BOLTON (St. Pancras, N.)
asked the honourable Member for North
W6st Staffordshire, Whether he will
consider the propriety of laying out the
vacant land on the west side of the
Royal Courts of Justice as an orna-
mental garden for the use of the public?
Mn. LEVESON GOWER (A LORD of
the TREASURY) (Stafford, N.W.) : It is
not proposed to lay out as a public re-
creation ground the land in question,
which will be required at no distant time
for the extension of the Courts of Jus-
tice. A Departmental Committee has
recently reported in this sense.
Mn. T. H. BOLTON asked, whether
the hon. Gentleman would consider the
propriety, at all events, of making some
slight alterations by fixing ornamental
railings and laying down grass, in order
that the grounds might be made more
sightly than they now were?
Mn. LEVESON GOWER said, he
would bring the matter before the
notice of the First Commissioner of
Works.

AFRICA (WEST COAST)-RIO DEL REY.
MR. HUTTON (Manchester, N.)
asked the Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs, Whether, under the
engagements entered into between the
Governments of Great Britain and Ger-
many in April and May 1885, British
traders established on the territories of
the right bank of the Rio del Rey, on
the West Coast of Africa, or established
on any of the affluents of the right bank
of that river, will be within the boun-
dary of the British protectorate, and
able to carry on their trade there under
British jurisdiction ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Mr. BRYCE) (Aberdeen, S.):
The territories on the right bank of the
Rio del Rey fall within the area over
which the British Protectorate extends,
and British traders there will have the
benefit of any British jurisdiction which
may be constituted.

WAR OFFICE ESTABLISHMENT-
SUPPLEMENTARY CLERKS.
MR. MACDONALD CAMERON
(Wick, &c.) asked the Secretary of State
for War, Whether a Memorial has been
received from the Supplementary Clerks


of the War Office, supported by the
opinion of counsel, alleging that several
of these gentlemen are suffering from a
breach of faith as to their prospects of
official advancement; and, if so, whe-
ther he will consider the expediency of
taking such steps as may be necessary
to remedy the grievances complained of ?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN) (Stirling, &c.) :
I have seen the Memorial referred to;
but I have not had time since I came
into Office to go thoroughly into the
question raised in it. The hon. Mem-
ber may be sure that it will not be
neglected.

INDIA (BENGAL)-THE GOVERNMENT
COLLEGE OF KISHNAGHUR.
SIR ROPER LETHBRIDGE (Ken-
sington, N.) asked the Under Secretary
of State for India, Whether it is the in-
tention of the Government of Bengal to
withdraw in any degree State aid or
State control from the Government Col-
lege of Kishnaghur; and, whether such
withdrawal constitutes a breach of the
understanding on which the Govern-
ment College of Kishnaghur was en-
dowed by local subscription in 1876 ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Mr. STAFFORD HOWARD) (Glou-
cester, Thornbury): The subject is one
which it is within the competence of the
Government of India to decide, and the
Secretary of State in Council has re-
ceived no information about it.

THE ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-
TRANSFERS FROM DOWNPATRICK.
Mn. COX (Clare, E.) asked the Chief
Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland, Whether he can state the rea-
sons why Constables Lockington, Orr,
M'Guigan, and Cameron have been re-
moved from Downpatrick?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN
MORLEY)(Newcastle-on-TYNE'): The four
constables named were removed because
they could not agree amongst them-
selves; and it was considered necessary,
for the peace of the station and the dis-
cipline of the Service, that they should be
removed.

LIGHTHOUSES (IRELAND)-CARLING.
FORD LOUGH LIGHTHOUSES.
MR. O'HANLON (Cavan, E.) asked
the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu-


COMMONS1


(Ireland). 12






Sittings Bill. 14


tenant of Ireland, Whether he is aware
that for several years the keepers of the
CarlingfordLough Lighthouse have been
kept in Kilkeel at lodgings of an incon-
venient and insufficient character and in
a highly unsanitary state, although much
superior accommodation could be ob-
tained at a smaller annual outlay than
at present; and, whether any steps
will be taken to remedy this state of
things ?
THE PRESIDENT (Mr. MUNDELLA)
(Sheffield, Brightside) (who replied)
said: The Commissioners of Irish Lights
inform me that no lightkeepers reside at
Kilkeel. The keepers of the Carlingford
Lough leading lights live at Greencastle,
in lodgings paid for by the Commis-
sioners. It is proposed to build dwell-
ings for the use of the keepers at Green-
castle. The intention has been delayed
owing to the excessive compensation
demanded by the tenants of the pro-
perty. Proposals have been received
for letting other lodgings which are not
better than those at present occupied by
the keepers. Until the Commissioners
have built their own houses they do not
think it advisable to enter into other
arrangements.

RAILWAYS (IRELAND) -RAILWAY
RATES.
MR. SMITHWICK (Kilkenny) asked
the President of the Board of Trade,
Whether his attention has been called
to the anomaly that the Railway rate
upon the Great Southern and Western
Line (Ireland) for the carriage of porter
is fifteen shillings per ton from Kilkenny
City to Dublin, being a distance of 81
miles, whereas the same commodity and
quantity is carried from Cork to Dublin,
being a distance of 1651 miles, for the
same charge of fifteen shillings per ton;
and, whether he will cause inquiries to
be made, in view of the promised legis-
lation, in order that the necessity of
relieving the public from such in-
equality of Railway rates may be estab-
lished ?
THE PRESIDENT (Mr. MUNDELLA)
(Sheffield, Brightside) : No, Sir; my at-
tention has not been called to the case
to which the hon. Gentleman refers;
but I have directed a communication to
be made to the Company, with a view
to learning the exact facts of the case.
Supposing these to be as stated, nothing


can be done beyond an appeal to the
Railway Commissioners until the Bill
now before the House is passed into
law.

THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-RESI.
DENT MAGISTRATES.
MR. TREVELYAN (Hawick, &c.)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the
position of Resident Magistrates will be
governed, as regards their tenure of
office and personal prospects, by the
provisions applied to Civil Servants in
Ireland under Clause 29 of the Govern-
ment of Ireland Bill ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JonI
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne): The an-
swer to my right hon. Friend's Question
is in the affirmative. The Bill distin-
guishes between those persons, such as
Judges and County Chairmen, whose
salaries are by law charged on the Con-
solidated Fund, and all ordinary Civil
servants who are paid out of moneys
voted by Parliament. The Resident
Magistrates belong to the latter class,
and they are dealt with, like other Civil
servants, by Clause 29 of the Bill.

CONTINUANCE SITTINGS BILL.
MB. BADEN-POWELL (Liverpool,
Kirkdale) asked Mr. Attorney General,
If he can inform the House whether
the Lord Chancellor has come to any
decision in reference to the representa-
tions which were made to him by the
deputation which waited upon him in
reference to the Continuance Sittings
Bill in the Provinces ?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir
CHARLES RUSSELL) (Hackney, S.), in
reply, said, that he had received from
the Secretary to the Lord Chancellor
a communication to the effect that he
had seen the Judges since the deputa-
tion on this subject attended in London,
and, with their Lordships' assent, he had
it in contemplation to alter the existing
Rules by removing the restrictions which
limit the facilities of trial in Lancashire.
The Lord Chancellor had also under
consideration, and hoped to be able to
provide a scheme, by which the admi-
nistrative business of causes proceed-
ing in the District Registries of Man-
chester and Liverpool might be pro-
secuted locally and not necessarily in
London.


13 Continzuance


JAPRIL 19, 18861







Controverted Elections. 16


LAW AND POLICE (ENGLAND)-EVIC-
TION OF MINERS IN DURHAM.
MR. ATHERLEY-JONES (Durham,
N.W.) asked the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, Whether, having
regard to the Memorials he has received
from the ratepayers and from the miners
of South Medomsley, he will suggest to
the magistrates for the county of Dur-
ham the expediency of directing a tho-
rough and impartial inquiry into the
alleged improper conduct of the police
during the recent evictions at South
Medomsley Colliery ?
THE SECRETARY oF STATE (Mr.
CHILDERS) (Edinburgh, S.): My hon.
Friend is aware that I have no authority
over the Durham police, and that all I
can do on such a Question as this being
asked in the House of Commons is to
call for information from the police
authorities. I have done so, and it is
not my opinion that on this occasion the
police acted improperly. The remedy
which.the complainants have, if they are
still unsatisfied, is to take proceedings
before the Justices against the con-
stables for excess of duty.

CEYLON-RAILWAY CONSTRUCTION.
MR. MACDONALD CAMERON
(Wick, &c.) asked the Under Secretary of
State for the Colonies, If it is true that
in 1878 the Colonial Office sanctioned an
expenditure of one million pounds ster-
ling to construct two-thirds, or forty-two
miles, of a railway line intended to
reach new traffic in the province of Uva,
Ceylon, but up to the present the officials
at the Colonial Office have declined, in
the face of urgent appeals from two Go-
vernors and their Executive Councils,
annual Memorials from the natives,
planters, and merchants, to sanction
the half million necessary to construct
the remaining one-third, or twenty-five
miles, and that, in consequence, the inte-
rest on the million pounds sterling can-
not be earned ?
TIE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Mr. OSBoRNE MORGAN) (Den-
bighshire, E.): It is true that in 1878
the then Secretary of State sanctioned
an expenditure of 1,000,000 sterling
on the line referred to in the Question,
on the distinct assurance that it would
pay without any regard to its possible
extension. The hon. Member is mis-
taken in supposing that the officials


at the Colonial Office, who are simply
the servants of the Secretary of State,
have ever given any decision on this
or any other Colonial matter of busi-
ness. The late Secretary of State (Sir
Frederick Stanley), after giving the
matter his most careful consideration,
reluctantly arrived at the conclusion
that the estimates of the earnings of
the proposed extension line would not
warrant the cost-estimated at between
18,000 and 19,000 per mile-of con-
structing it. When I state that be-
tween 1877 and 1884 the Revenue of
Ceylon fell from over Rs.17.000,000 to
Rs.12,500,000, while its debts increased
from 1,000,000 sterling to 2,200,000
sterling, and that in such a Colony there
are always other important reproductive
works claiming attention when such
matters are under consideration, the
hon. Member will, I am sure, see how
impossible it is for the Home Govern-
ment, with every desire to provide facili-
ties of transport for the planters, to
whom the Colony is largely indebted for
its prosperity, to sanction projects which
cannot be shown to pay interest and pro-
vide a Sinking Fund on the amount
borrowed for the purpose. I may add
that public opinion in the Colony is by
no means unanimous on the scheme, and
that the two unofficial Members who
represent the Native interest on the
Council spoke and divided the Legis-
lative Council against it.

PARLIAMENT-CONTROVERTED ELEC-
TIONS-THE STEPNEY ELECTION.
Mn. CREMER (Shoreditch, Hagger-
ston) asked Mr. Attorney General,
Whether his attention has been drawn
to the decision of the Judges in the
Stepney election petition, to the effect
that a Member against whom no.illegal
practices of any kind have been proved,
but whose return has been unsuccess-
fully challenged by a scrutiny, may be
compelled to bear the enormous costs of
defending his seat, while the Petitioner
who has initiated the litigation and
whose claim to have had the majority
of legal votes has been conclusively dis-
proved, is released from payment of any
part of the costs to which he has put
the sitting Member, on the ground that
the Judges, in the exercise of their dis-
cretion, considered there was a reason-
able case for inquiry; and, whether,
having regard to. the limit of expenses


1CoMMONS1


115 Parliament--






17 Law and Justice


fixed by "The Corrupt Practices Act,
1883," by which candidature for Parlia-
ment was believed to be open to men of
moderate means and not to be exclu-
sively within the reach of men of wealth,
he will consider the desirability of limit-
ing by Legislation the discretion of the
Judges in awarding costs ?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir
CHARLES RUSSELL) (Hackney, S.), in
reply, said, that the facts, as stated in
the first part of the Question, seemed, so
far as he (the Attorney General) knew,
to be accurately set out. He had no hesi-
tation in saying that, in view of these
facts, the case seemed to be a very
hard one. He had not, however, the
whole of the facts fully before him, or
within his knowledge; and it would
be presumptuous and wrong for him to
attempt to pronounce an opinion as to
the discretion the Judges had thought
proper to exercise. With regard to the
question whether it would be desirable
to limit by legislation the discretion of
Judges in awarding costs, he thought it
was not undesirable that the costs should
be made to follow the event, unless for
good causes the Judges decided other-
wise. This was already the case in
ordinary litigations in the High Courts ;
and he (the Attorney General) believed
the same rule was supposed to be sub-
stantially followed in the case of Election
Petitions. He would mention the matter
to the Lord Chancellor, with the view
of ascertaining whether any change was
desirable.

METROPOLIS-RAILWAY EXTENSION.
MR. CREMER (Shoreditch, Hagger-
ston) asked the President of the Board
of Trade, Whether he can explain the
delay which has taken place in the com-
mencement of the Paddington and Lime-
house Railway, the South Eastern Rail-
way extension in Southwark and Ber-
mondsey; and, whether, taking into
consideration the serious loss entailed
by suspense and uncertainty upon the
shopkeepers and owners and occupiers
of property in the scheduled area, and
the great amount of unemployed labour
in the Metropolis, he can take any steps
to expedite the commencement of the
works referred to ?
THE PRESIDENT (Mr. MUNDELLA)
(Sheffield, Brightside): I have no in-
formation with regard to the Question
put to me by the hon. Member, as the


Board of Trade has no power to act in
the matter. I may add that the time
limited for the completion of the works
in question is fixed by special Act of
Parliament in each case, and in the
event of that being overstepped they
would be liable to a penalty of the loss
of deposit. I have forwarded a copy of
the hen. Member's Question to the re-
spective Railway Companies.

LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)- CASE
OF G. GIBBS AND P. MULLENS.
MR. SHEEHY (Galway, S.) asked
the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, Whether two men,
named George Gibbs and Patrick Mul-
lens, were prosecuted at the Gort Petty
Sessions on the 31st October last, for an
assault on two men named Claran and
Linskey; whether Gibbs was sentenced
to one month's imprisonment with hard
labour, and Mullens to 14 days; whether
Gibbs's solicitor applied to the Bench
to have one day added to Gibbs's sen-
tence, to give him power to appeal,
which was refused; whether Gibbs only
learned when he was lodged in gaol that
his term was to be two months; whether
Gibbs, in carrying with another prisoner
a barrow of coal, slipped and fell under
the coal he was carrying, and broke his
leg; whether when discharged from the
prison, Gibbs still suffering from his leg,
was with two securities summoned, he
being under a rule of bail, and his re-
cognizances estreated, he being fined 2,
and his sureties 1 each; and, whether,
having regard to all the circumstances,
some compensation will be made to
him for the injury he received in the
prison; or, at least, will the fines be
remitted?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.
JoHN MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne), in
reply, said, the assaults committed in
this instance appeared to be entirely un-
provoked; and the Bench, in the exercise
of their discretion, sentenced Mullens to
14 days' imprisonment, and Gibbs, who
committed two assaults and had been
bound to the peace previously, to two
months' imprisonment with hard labour,
being a month for each assault. Gibbs
sprained his ankle in prison; but the
medical officer stated that he was nearly
all right when he was released. The
magistrates estreated his recognizances,
but, in consideration of the injury he
received, reduced the amount from 10


JAPRIL 19, 18861


(Irelanld). 1







19 Land Purchases


and 5 to 2 and 1. The case did
not appear to call for further considera-
tion.

ALLOTMENTS EXTENSION ACT, 1882-
LEGISLATION.
MR. COBB (Warwick, S.E., Rugby):
asked the First Lord of the Treasury,
Whether, looking to the neglect of the
trustees of parochial charities to carry
out the provisions of The Allotments
Extension Act, 1882," he could say ap-
proximateiywhen the Government would
be in a position to introduce the Local
Self Government Bill ?
THE PRESIDENT (Mr. STANSFELD)
(Halifax): My right hon. Friend has
requested me to answer this Question.
My hon. Friend correctly assumes that
the subject of allotments and of small
holdings will be dealt with by Her Ma-
jesty's Government in the Local Govern-
ment Bill, if not by a separate measure.
Her Majesty's Government are fully
conscious of the importance of the sub-
ject in the interests of the agricultural
population'. I regret that I am not at
this moment in a position to make a
statement as to the time when I shall be
enabled to ask leave to introduce a
Local Government Bill; but I can as-
sure my hon. Friend that there will be
no avoidable delay in so doing.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (THE JOINT
COMMITTEE).
MR. MAGNIAC (Bedford, N., Biggles-
wade) asked, Whether the Chancellor of
the Exchequer could say on what day
after the Recess the subject of the Indian
Committee would be taken; or, if he
could not fix a day, whether reasonable
Notice would be given ?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-
QUER (SirVILLIAM HARCOURT) (Derby):
in reply, said, that reasonable Notice
would be given.

THE DOMINION OF CANADA AND
TIE UNITED STATES TREATY
OF WASHINGTON- FISHERY DIS-
PUTES.
MI. BADEN-POWELL (Liverpool,
Kirkdale) asked the Under Secretary of
State for the Colonies, Whether overt
acts of aggression, as between Canadian
and American fishermen in the Bay of
Fundy, have recently taken place;
whether the United States Government
Vr. John 3orley


has brought the matter to the attention
of Her Majesty's Government; and
whether steps are now being taken by
the Canadian or theImperial Government
to put an end to these disturbing fishery
disputes ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Mr. OSBONE M ORGAN) (Den-
bighshire, E.): I am not surprised
at the hon. Member putting the
Question, which, perhaps, ought pro-
perly to be answered by the Under
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
No representation has been received
from the Government of the United
States as to any acts of aggression by
United States or Canadian fishermen in
the Bay of Fundy, nor has any official
information been received showing that
such acts have taken place. The Fishery
Clauses of the Treaty of Washington,
having been denounced by the United
States Government, lapsed in July,
1885, and a temporary arrangement -for
continuing their operation for the then
current fishing season has now also ex-
pired. The United States Senate having
rejected the proposal of the Government
of that country to appoint an Inter-
national Commission to consider the best
means of settling the question on equi-
table terms, the rights of Canadian and
American fishermen are now remitted to
the position in which they were placed
by the Convention of 1818. If any dis-
pute should arise as to the exercise of
these rights, the House may rest assured
that no effort will be spared by Her
Majesty's Government to settle them
with as little friction as possible.
LAND PURCHASES (IRELAND).
SmI GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.) asked the Chief Secretary to
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with
regard to the Land Act of last Session,
How many farms above the value of
100 per annum had been purchased;
and, what was the total rental and
purchase of what had been sanctioned ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JoHN
MORLEY) (Newcastle on Tyne): The
number of farms of over 100 a-year
rental that have been purchased is 65,
and the amount sanctioned for their
purchase is 171,797. The largest pur-
chase is a rent of 450 a-year. This
has been bought, subject to a head rent
of 122, for 4,550, of which the Land
Commissioners advanced 3,000. I am


1 COMMONS}


(Irelandt). 20






21 Crofters (Scotland)


unable to say now what is the total rent
of the farms whose purchase has so far
been sanctioned, nor can I say how
many years' purchase the amount sanc-
tioned is of the gross rental. I under-
stand it would take some days to get out
this information, and I only got my hon.
Friend's Notice yesterday.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
SIR MICHAEL HICKS BEACH
(Bristol, W.) asked Mr. Chancellor of
the Exchequer, What Business would
be taken on the Monday and the Thurs-
day after the Recess; and, also, whether
he intended to proceed with the Budget
Bill to-night?
THE CHANCELLOR Or THE EXCHE-
QUER (Sir WILLIa M HAncoURT)(Derby),
in reply, said, he understood the Civil
Service Estimates would be taken on the
Monday; and, of course, if the right
hon. Gentleman wished the Budget Bill
not to be taken to-night, he would not
take it.
MR. W. O'BRIEN (Tyrone, S.): As
the Land Bill was not circulated this
morning, I would like to ask the Chief
Secretary whether the Government in-
tends to make any provision in the Bill
dealing with the case of the purchasers
of Church Lands in Ireland ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY(Mr. JOHN
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne) : I re-
gret to say that at the present stage we
have been unable to include any pro-
vision in the scheme in regard to that
matter.
MR. W. O'BRIEN: Can you give
any hope that the claims of the pur-
chasers of Church lands will be dealt
with in any other shape?
MR. JOHN MORLEY: I would rather
not commit myself at this moment to any
further statement.
SIn MICHAEL HICKS BEACH:
The right lion. Gentleman has not stated
when the Bill will be circulated.
MR. JOHN MORLEY: I have seen
the draftsman to-day, and he assures
me that it will be circulated not later
than Wednesday morning.
In reply to Sir MICHAEL HIicK-BEAOI,
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT said,
the Government proposed to take the
Budget Bill on the Monday after the
Recess, as it was very desirable that it
should be disposed of before they came
to the discussion of the Irish Bills.


MR. ADDISON (Ashton-under-Lyne)
asked when the Railway and Canal
Traffic Bill was likely to be taken ?
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD
OF TRADE (Mr. MUNDELLA) (Shef-
field, Brightside), in reply, said, he
only wished he had been able to give
the hen. Member a positive answer as
to when the Bill would be likely to come
on. It all depended on what progress
was made with the Crofters Bill. If
that Bill were got out of the way to-
night, he proposed to take the Railway
Bill on the Thursday after Easter.

ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-0-
CROFTERS (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL.
(Mr. Trevelyan, The Lord Advocate, Mr.
Solicitor Generalfor Scotland.)
[BILL 118.1 COMMITTEE.
[Progress 15th April.]
[sIXTH NIoGHT.]
Bill considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Clause 14 (Assigned Land).
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.).: As this is the last clause in
Part 5 which deals with the enlargement
of holdings, I should like to make a few
brief observations to the Committee be-
fore the clause is added to the Bill. I
look upon it as a good principle to make
provision for the enlargement of crofters'
holdings upon fair terms when there is
available land conveniently adjacent to
that already in the occupancy of the
crofters. But I feel bound to say that
the refusal of the Government to accom-
pany the measure by some provision for
pecuniary aid to enable the crofter to
stock the enlarged holding materially
impairs the value of the concession. The
Committee, in this part of the Bill, have
been engaged in imposing numerous
restrictions upon the enlargement of
crofters' holdings in the interests of the
landlord; and, as the matter now stands,
I am afraid that all these restrictions,
together with an entire absence of pecu-
niary aid, will render the number of
cases in which the Bill will be applicable
practically nil. This part of the ,mea-
sure is only to be made operative in the
[Sixth Niht.]


JAPRIL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill. 22







23 Crofters (Scotland)


event of the crofters who make an ap-
plication to the Land Commission show-
ing that they have the means of stocking
it; and, therefore, I am afraid that the
number of cases in which the enlarge-
ment of the holding will be sanctioned
will be an infinitesimal fraction of the
number of persons who ought to receive
benefit. I am strongly of opinion that,
if these clauses are intended to apply at
all, provision ought to be made by which
the crofters should be able to obtain
pecuniary assistance. If the crofter does
not possess the means of stocking the
holding-and I am afraid there will
hardly be a case of that kind, consider-
ing the present circumstances of the
THighlands-the result will be that these
clauses will remain altogether inopera-
tive; because the tenant, if he does not
obtain the additional land under the
Bill, will hardly get it voluntarily from
the landlord. And if the crofter has the
means of stocking it, it is scarcely pro-
bable that the landlord would refuse to
enlarge his holding, even without these
provisions of the Bill. I feel bound to
express my extreme regret that Her
Majesty's Government should have
brought in a Bill embodying such good
principles, and yet should make it prac-
tically inoperative by refusing to give to
the crofters the only means by which
they could take advantage of it.
THE CHAIRMAN : I must point out
to the hon. Gentleman that his remarks
upon this clause are very wide.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I only
wished to express my objection to the
clause as it stands. The refusal of the
Government to accompany it by pecu-
niary aid is to me astounding, after the
proposals which have been made to pro-
vide millions for the relief of Irish land-
lords.
Motion agreed to.
Clause 15 (Appointment of three Com-
missioners).
Da. R. MACDONALD (Ross and Cro-
marty) : The first part of this clause
provides that, with a view to the exe-
cution of the Act, it shall be lawful
for Her Majesty to appoint three
Commissioners, who are designated in
the Bill as "the Land Commission."
The object of the Amendment which I
am about to propose is to provide that
all the Commissioners shall speak the
Gaelic language. I cannot help thinking
Sir George Campbell


that it would be ridiculous and absurd
to appoint three Commissioners who can
only speak the English language, and
who would be altogether unacquainted
with the language spoken by the large
majority of crofters with whose interests
they will have to deal. I believe that it
will be very easy indeed to find gentle-
men fit to do the work who are able to
speak the Gaelic language; and I feel
satisfied that, if this proposal is not
adopted, there will not only be many
misunderstandings, but frequent miscar-
riages of justice, owing principally to
the want of information on the part of
the Commissioners. To my mind, it is
of the utmost importance that the Com-
missioners should be able to talk to
these people in their own language, and
ascertain their grievances from their
own mouths, instead of through an in-
terpreter. In any case, the crofters
themselves would have much more con-
fidence in the Commission, and would be
more satisfied with its decisions, if the
Members of it were able to talk to them
in their own tongue. I regard this
as a matter of very great importance in-
deed, and I trust that the right hon.
and learned Gentleman the Lord Advo-
cate will accept it, or, at least, consent
to provide that there shall be upon the
Commission someone who can speak the
Gaelic language.
Amendment proposed, in page 7,
line 10, after the word "Commission-
ers," to insert the words all of whom
can speak the Gaelic language."-(Dr.
R. Mlacdonald.)
Question proposed, "That those words
be there inserted."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): I have
no doubt that there is a great deal in
what has been said by the hon. Member
to justify the appointment of a Gaelic-
speaking Commissioner. I would point
out, however, that this is a matter for
consideration in the administration of
the Act, rather than for an express
statutory provision in the Bill itself.
Although it may be desirable that one
or two of the Commissioners should
speak Gaelic, I do not think it would be
quite safe to put in a statutory restric-
tion of the kind suggested, any more
than it would have been to insert in the
Irish Act a provision that the Land
Commissioners appointed under it should


{COMMONS}


(-Nog. 2) BMl. 21






25 Crofters (Scotland)


speak Celtic. I admit that the matter
is a fair one to be kept in view in ad-
ministering the Act.
Mn. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire): I must confess that I
have heard the reply of the Lord Advo-
cate to the proposal of my hon. Friend
with great disappointment. The Gaelic
language is spoken universally by the
people in the part of the country falling
under the operation of the Bill. I believe
that my hon. Friend will not insist that
the whole of the Commissioners should
be able to speak Gaelic; and perhaps
the objection of the Lord Advocate would
be met by the proposal to appoint at
least one Commissioner with a knowledge
of the Gaelic language. I will therefore
move that the Amendment be amended
by the insertion of one" Gaelic-
speaking Commissioner.
Amendment proposed to proposed
Amendment, by leaving out the word
"all," and inserting the word "one."
-(Mr. Fraser-Mackintosh,)
Question proposed, That the word
'all' stand part of the proposed Amend-
ment."
Mn. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I hope the right hon. and learned Gen-
tleman the Lord Advocate will accept
the Amendment as proposed by the hon.
Member for Inverness-shire, in order to
insure that at least one of the Commis-
sioners should be acquainted with the
Gaelic language. Our experience hitherto
of legal appointments in the Highlands
has not been such as to inspire con-
fidence. In some instances the Pro-
curators Fiscal and Sheriffs are unable
to speak Gaelic, with great disadvan-
tage to the people among whom they
are required to administer justice. I en-
tirely disagree with the Lord Advocate
that it is unnecessary to insert this
provision in the Bill. I consider it
to be an essential qualification in the
appointment of these Commissioners
that one of them, at least, should be
acquainted with the Gaelic tongue; and
to insure that it ought to be specified in
the Bill.
THE CHAIRMAN: Does the hon.
Member for Ross-shire (Dr. Macdonald)
accept the Amendment of the hon. Mem-
ber for Inverness-shire (Mr. Fraser-
Mackintosh) ?
DR. R. MACDONALD: Yes; I am
prepared to adopt the suggestion that


one of the Commissioners shall be able
to speak the Gaelic language.
Question put, and negative.
Question proposed, "That the word
'one' stand part of the proposed Amend-
ment."
Mn. J. B. BALFOUR: I think it is
a very fair proposal that one of the
Commissioners, at all events, should be
acquainted with Gaelic; and, that being
the evident feeling of the Committee, I
will accept the Amendment.
Mn. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester,
E.): I quite concur in the view that if
a Commissioner can be found who is
able to speak the Gaelic language such
an appointment would be highly de-
sirable; but I do not think the Commit-
tee ought to include such a provision in
the Bill. The number of educated per-
sons who possess a knowledge of Gaelic
is rapidly diminishing; and if we insert
a statutory provision of this kind it
might happen, in the course of time,
that the Government would be com-
pelled to accept the appointrient" of a
Commissioner who would have no other
qualification but that of being able to
speak the Gaelic language. I therefore
hope that the Lord Advocate will not
accept the Amendment.
MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.): I
shall be glad to learn how it is sug-
gested that the Commission shall con-
duct their investigations if no member
of the body be able to understand the
language of the people whose cases they
have to decide. The result of having no
one on the Commission who understood
Gaelic would be that interpreters would
have to be appointed, which would entail
great expense, much difficulty, and pro-
bable misunderstandings. I therefore
hope that the Lord Advocate will require
that one, at all events, of the Commis-
sioners should possess a knowledge of
Gaelic.
SIR DONALD OURRIE (Perthshire,
W.): I am quite sure that a very large
number of the persons in whose interest
the Commissioners will have to conduct
their inquiries understand no other lan-
guage than Gaelic. I would only ven-
ture to suggest that as the Lord Advo-
cate has already promised that one of
the Commissioners shall be able to speak
Gaelic he will adhere to his promise,
and in making the appointment provide
that the most efficient man who can be
I[ Sixth Night.]


JAPRIL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill. 26







27 Crofters (Scotland)


obtained shall be appointed. I am
satisfied that efficient men can be found
in Scotland possessing the Gaelic quali-
fication.
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll): I have
only one word to say. I am very much
surprised that the right hon. and learned
Gentleman the Lord Advocate should
wish to appoint Edinburgh lawyers of
a certain number of years' standing,
ignorant of the native tongue, into these
districts to administer justice to a people
who cannot understand a word of Eng-
lish. If the right hon. and learned
Gentleman were to go out to India he
would find that the most petty official
of the Government who is called upon
to administer justice to the Natives is
required to pass an examination, in order
to show that he has a knowledge of the
language of the people among whom he
is to dwell.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR : I have already
stated that I am prepared to accept the
Amendment, and to require as a quali-
fication that one of the Commissioners
shall have a knowledge of Gaelic.
MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD (Edin-
burgh and St. Andrew's Universities):
I should like to point out to the Com-
mittee how the matter stands in regard
to the ordinary administration of justice
in Scotland. It is certainly incredible
to me that in any local parts of Scotland,
where all the legal forms are drawn up
in English, any difficulty should arise in
administering justice, or any dissatisfac-
tion be expressed in consequence of the
employment, where necessary, of an in-
terpreter. I cannot see why there should
be any more difficulty experienced than
there is .in the ordinary, way in which
such cases are dealt with in the Law
Courts. I have myself acted as a local
Judge in the Highland district, and I
have had to administer justice in cases
in which scarcely a single witness spoke
a word of English. Of course, it was
necessary that I should speak to such
persons and receive their evidence
through an interpreter; but I never
found any difficulty, and never heard
any dissatisfaction expressed. [" Oh "]
No; not in a single instance, in the whole
course of my experience. Nor have I
ever heard it said in regard to any case
tried in a Criminal Court that an in-
justice of any kind has been done in
consequence of following the ordinary
mode of examining a witness who spoke
Sir Donald Currie


another languagethroughan interpreter.
I am afraid that a considerable amount
of inconvenience and difficulty may be
created if this Amendment is inserted in
the clause. The Statute should only
provide that fit and proper persons
shall be appointed on the Commission.
We are axious on thissideof the House-
and I have no doubt that hon. Members
on the other side are equally anxious-
that the Commissioners appointed in the
Land Court should be gentlemen of the
highest qualifications and professional
rank. I am sure my right hon. and
learned Friend will bear me out when I
say that there would be very great diffi-
culty at the present moment in finding
efficient men who possess such a know-
ledge of Gaelic, such practice in and
command over the language, which is a
very different thing from being merely
able to read it, as would give a guarantee
that the more important duties of the
office would be adequately discharged.
I therefore trust that my right hon. and
learned Friend will reconsider the matter,
and arrive at the conclusion that it is
not necessary to include this qualification
in the Statute.
Ms. J. B. BALFOUR: I have no
doubt that what the right hon. and
learned Gentleman says is perfectly true
in regard to the Law Courts, and that it
is frequently the practice to employ an
interpreter; but I hope that in the case
of the Land Commission the proceedings
will be somewhat more informal, and a
knowledge of the language might be of
great value where a Commissioner was
going over a holding. He would be
able to speak to the people and elicit
information, which he could not do if he
did not know their language.
MR. RAMSAY (Falkirk, &c.): I can
confirm the statement which has been
made by the right hon. and learned
Gentleman opposite (Mr. J. H. A. Mac-
donald), and I very much regret that
my right hon. and learned Friend the
Lord Advocate should have assented to
the proposal. The greatest drawback
from which the Highland people suffer,
in providing themselves with labour, and
in seeking it elsewhere, is their ex-
clusive knowledge of the Gaelic lan-
guage. I feel satisfied that if this
qualification is insisted upon the Com-
mission will not be as efficient as it
ought to be. It is well known that at
the present moment there is difficulty in


(COMMONS}


(Vo. 2) Bill. 28






29 Crofters (Scotland)


obtaining schoolmasters with a sufficient
knowledge of Gaelic to enable them to
teach schools efficiently in the Highlands;
and still more difficult will it be to find
a gentleman of education, position, and
legal training to fill the office of Com-
missioner. There can be no justification
in inserting such a qualification, and I
am afraid it will only add another
obstacle to the proper working of the
Bill.
Mn. BEITH (Glasgow, Central): I
may say that I know one or two gentle-
men familiar with the Gaelic language
who would be quite competent to act as
Commissioners.
MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton):
I trust that after the very fair manner
in which the Lord Advocate has met the
appeal to him the Committee will sup-
port the right hon. and learned Gentle-
man.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): I cannot allow the state-
ment which has been made to the Com-
mittee by two legal Gentlemen-one on
this side of the House and one on the
other-to pass without notice. I, for
one, fail to conceive how it can be satis-
factory, either in a criminal or any other
trial, to have a Judge who is ignorant of
the language of the people among whom
he is administering justice. I certainly
do not think it right to attempt to justify
one abuse by suggesting that another
abuse already exists, and that in the
ordinary Courts of Law the Judges do
not, as a rule, understand the language
of the people among whom they admi-
nister justice. I am able to confirm
what has been said by the hon. Member
for Argyllshire (Mr. Macfarlane) with
reference to the necessity of Indian offi-
cials knowing the language of the Indian
Natives among whom they reside.
SmI JAMES FERGUSSON (Man-
chester, N.E.): I feel bound to dispute
the accuracy of the statement of the
hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George
Campbell). It is an entire mistake to
suppose that the officials all over India
understand the language of the Natives
among whom they act. In the Presi-
dency of Bombay, for instance, there
are four different vernaculars, and it
would be perfectly impossible for a
Judge to understand the whole of
them.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I can-
not answer for the Presidency of Bom-


bay; but I think I can for the other
parts of India.
Question put, and agreed to.
Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
MR. M'CULLOCH (Glasgow, St.
Rollox): The Amendment which I have
now to move has reference to the next
paragraph of the clause, and its object
is to omit the qualification that one of
the Commissioners shall be an advocate
of the Scottish Bar of not less than 10
years' standing, and to substitute the
provision that he shall be a person
" duly qualified to practise law in one of
the Scotch Courts." I may mention a
single instance, which I think will con-
vince the Committee of the inadvisability
of making the provision contained in the
clause. Probably there was no one
better versed in Scotch law and rural
practice than the late M'Neil Caird,
and yet if he had now been alive it
would have been impossible to have
appointed him to one of these Commis-
sionerships under this clause.
Amendment proposed,
In page 7, line 13, to leave out the words
"an advocate of the Scottish bar of not less
than ten years' standing," and insert the words
"duly qualified to practise law in one of the
Scotch Courts."-( Mr. M'Ciuloch.)
Question proposed, That the words
proposed to be left out stand part of the
Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.) : I can-
not accept the Amendment. It has been
the invariable practice, in similar cir-
cumstances, to appoint a person of even
considerable standing at the Bar. Under
the Irish Land Act the Judicial Com-
missioner is required to be a person of
not less than 10 years' standing at the
Irish Bar. Without intending to be
disrespectful to any person, I must say
that we are more likely to get the proper
qualification under the clause than under
this Amendment.
Da. CLARK (Caithness): The Judi-
cial Commissioner under this Bill will
occupy a different position from that of
the Irish Commissioner, who is not only
a Commissioner of the Land Court, but
a Judge of the Superior Courts as well.
If the right hen. and learned Gentle-
man the Lord Advocate laid it down
that the Judicial Commissioner should
be a Lord of Session, there might be
[Sixth Night.]


JAPRrL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill 30







31 Crofters (Scotland)


some justification for the qualification'
which the clause seeks to impose. But
I quite agree with the hon. Member for
Glasgow (Mr. M'Culloch) that under
this Bill there is no advantage in limit-
ing the selection in the same manner as
would be necessary if the appointment
were that of Judge of one of the Supe-
rior Courts. The questions which the
Land Commission will have to deal with
are of a different class altogether; the
scope of the investigation is limited;
and there is no absolute necessity for
the appointment of a barrister of 10
years' standing. There are other
branches of the Legal Profession in
which suitable men may be found, and
the limitation proposed by the clause
ought not to be retained.
Mn. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I shall certainly support the Amend-
ment. I hold that its effect will be to
widen the area of choice, so as to en-
able the Government to select the best
man. It is quite possible, if there is
no restriction of this kind, that you
may find a solicitor who is specially
qualified to discharge the duties of the
office, and who is conversant both with
questions relating to land and relating
to law. If you make it absolutely essen-
tial that the appointment should be con-
ferred upon someone now practising in
the Parliament House of 10 years' stand-
ing, you may find it necessary to tempt
him with the offer of a very large salary
indeed. Not only would a large expen-
diture be entailed in that way, but it
would be requisite to give the other two
Commissioners correspondingly high sa-
laries. If we limit ourselves to the
Parliament House, we are certainly not
likely to obtain a really competent bar-
rister of 10 years' standing who would
accept the appointment unless the salary
offered were a great deal higher than
the necessities of the case demand;
for these reasons I shall support the
Amendment of the hon. Member for
Glasgow (Mr. M'Culloch).
MR. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire): No doubt the principle
of conferring such appointments only
upon barristers of 10 years' standing is
one which has been long adopted in
Scotland; but it is time it should cease.
In this particular case I maintain that
you may have competent lawyers in the
Parliament House, and yet not one of
them a person who ought to be selected
Dr. Clark


for this appointment. So far as Iunder-
stand the Amendment, it places no limi-
tation upon the power of the Govern-
ment to appoint an advocate of 10 years'
standing; but it simply provides that
the appointment shall not be restricted
to that class only.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester,
E.): I hope the hon. Member for Glas-
gow (Mr. M'Oulloch) will not put the
Committee to the trouble of dividing
upon this point. It must not be for.
gotten that the Land Commission which
the Bill establishes will have to perform
most difficult and delicate official duties
of an entirely new kind. It is, there-
fore, absolutely essential that the Court
to be established should be so constituted
as to inspire confidence in both classes
of litigants. I venture to think that
any Amendment we might insert in the
Bill which would lower the status of the
Commissioners, or render it probable
that they would inspire very little con-
fidence among the people, would be
greatly to be deprecated. My only
objection to the previous Amendment
was that it might not be possible to
obtain a man of adequate standing who
knew Gaelic; and the fact that we have
adopted that Amendment makes it all
the more necessary that the remaining
Members of the Commission should
possess such qualifications as would
place the dignity and efficiency of the
new tribunal upon a solid foundation.
Question put.
The Committee divided:-Ayes 183;
Noes 80: Majority 103. (Div. List,
No. 77.)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Clause, as amended, stand
part of the Bill."
Six DONALD CURRIE (Perthshire,
W.): I beg to move in page 7, line 14,
after standing," to insert and the
other two Commissioners shall be prac-
tical agriculturists." I am of opinion
that due provision having been made to
secure the services of a Judicial Com-
missioner with a legal training, the
remaining Commissioners should have
some practical acquaintance with the
questions likely to be brought before
them.
Amendment proposed,
In page 7, line 14, after the word "stand-
ing," to insert the words "and the other two


1 COMMO6NS1


(Alo. 2) Bill. 32






33 Crofters (Scotland)


Commissioners shall be practical agricul-
turists."-(Sir Donald Currie.)
Question proposed, "That thosewords
be there inserted."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): I think
the adoption of the Amendment of my
hon. Friend would be calculated to do
more harm than good. It would, in that
case, be essential to restrict the appoint-
ment to men who had lived all their
lives in the country, and had devoted
themselves to the study of agricultural
matters. The object of leaving two of
the Commissioners at large, so to speak,
and not defining their profession, is to
leave it possible to select persons who
have special knowledge of agricultural
matters. A man may not be a practical
agriculturist and yet know a good
deal about agricultural matters. The
administration 'of the Act will also in-
volve a certain amount of pastoral know-
ledge,and that might be excluded by the
adoption of the Amendment.
Amendment negative.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.) moved an
Amendment in the section relating to
the remuneration of the Commission and
its officers, the object of which was to
include valuers, assessors, clerks, and
persons holding inferior situations.
Amendment proposed,
In page 7, line 23, after the word officers,"
to insert the words "including valuers and
assessors, as also clerks or persons holding in-
ferior situations."
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 16 (Area covered by the Act).
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll): The
first section of the clause provides that-
The Commissioners after due inquiry shall
ascertain what parishes or islands or districts
forming aggregates of parishes, within the
counties of Argyll, Inverness, Ross, Suther-
land, Caithness, Orkney, and Shetland, are
crofting parishes, or aggregates of crofting
parishes, and shall determine that this Act
shall apply to such parishes."
I propose, as an Amendment, to leave
out the first two lines of the section, for
the purpose of providing that the Bill
shall be applicable to all the counties
named without any preliminary inquiry
by the Commissioners to ascertain what
were the crofters' parishes. Unless this
VOL. CCV0. [THIRD SERIES.]


alteration is agreed to, a large number
of the poor class of cottars in these
counties will be excluded from all the
advantages proposed to be conferred by
the measure, and the Bill will only
apply in patchwork fashion. Within
my limited knowledge there is no pre-
cedent for legislation which is to apply
only to portions of particular localities.
If the Amendment is adopted, the Act
will still only apply in circumstances to
which it is applicable. The object of
the clause is, I presume, to make the
measure inapplicable where it could not
possibly be applied, and my Amend-
ment will answer the same purpose, be-
cause if the clause is made applicable to
the whole of the counties named, it can-
not be applied except in cases to which
the Bill is applicable, and that is where
there are crofters or crofting parishes
whose cases are dealt with by the mea-
sure. Therefore, without further obser-
vation, I will move the Amendment, and
I trust that the Lord Advocate will ac-
cept it.
Amendment proposed,
In page 7, line 27, to leave out from the word
"The," to the word "within," in line 28, in-
clusive, and insert the words This Act shall
apply to,"-(Mr. Macfarlane,)
-instead thereof.
Question proposed, That the words
'The Commissioners, after due inquiry,
shall ascertain what parishes or islands
or districts forming aggregates of
parishes within' stand part of the
Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): I very
much agree with the hon. Member as
to the result of the Amendment, and
believe it would amount to very much
the same thing as the clause itself; but
if we mean the Act to apply only to
areas inhabited by persons possessing
the crofter qualification, we had much
better say so, and say so consistently.
I hope the hon. Member will not press
the Amendment.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I support the Amendment. The clause,
as it stands, would have a most extra-
ordinary effect. Without any geogra-
phical distinction it will apply to one
set of tenants holding under one form
of tenure, but will except another set of
tenants holding under precisely the
same tenure. This, I maintain, is con-
C [Sixth Night.]


JArRIL 19, 18861


(20. 2) Bial. 34







(No. 2) Bill. 36


trary to the practice of all modern legis-
lation, which is to assimilate the tenure
throughout the country and make it
uniform. Here the Bill makes excep-
tions in the most extraordinary manner.
First of all we have exceptional coun-
ties, then exceptional parishes, and then
exceptional holdings. It is an endeavour
to give the benefits of the Act to the
smallest number of tenants, and I am
sure the result would be unsatisfactory.
One tenant would hold under different
conditions from another, and a third
under a totally different tenure still.
I think the Committee should express
their opinion upon the matter, if only
by way of protest, by accepting the
Amendment of my hon. Friend.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk--
caldy, &c.): I shall support the Amend-
ment of my hon. Friend the Member
for Argyllshire (Mr. Macfarlane), al-
though it may be objected to on the
ground that it goes a little too far. No
doubt, so far as the interests of the
crofters are concerned in the provisions
of the Bill, the Amendment would make
a material alteration. If there are no
crofters, however, the Bill will not
apply. The definition in the clause does
not apply to the crofters, but to crofting
parishes, and later on a "crofting
parish is defined to mean a parish in
which there have been, within 80 years
prior to the passing of the Act, holdings
consisting of arable land held with a
right of pasturage in common with
others, and in which there are still ten-
ants of holdings from year to year.
But there may be parishes in which
there are hundreds of crofters to whom
the definition will not apply. I have
taken the trouble to look at the defini-
tion of the word "croft" in the
dictionary, and I find that it means a
small field or inclosure of arable land
attached to a dwelling; but it is not
grazing ground. I am quite sure that
in many parts of Scotland these com-
mon grazing lands do not exist; and
therefore I hope the Lord Advocate
will accept the Amendment of the hon.
Member for Argyllshire, which will
enable all crofters in the counties men-
tioned in the clause to receive benefit
under the Bill.
DR. R. MACDONALD (Ross and
Cromarty): I hope that the hon. Mem-
ber for Argyllshire (Mr. Macfarlane)
will adhere to his Amendment. We all
2Mr. J. W. Barclay


know that this Bill has been brought in
in consequence of the extension of deer
forests in the Highlands of Scotland.
It was pointed out by an hon. Member,
the other night, that on the borders of
the large deer forests, like that of Mr.
Winans, there is not a single crofter to
be found. The only persons who live
there are cottars who have been turned
out of these forests. Indeed, it would
not suit the gentlemen who own deer
forests to have crofters all around them.
The land, which was originally croft,
has been converted into large sheep
farms, and very strict precautions are
taken to prevent trespassing. I cannot
-see why there should be any objection
to the Amendment. I do not thinkany-
body need be in the smallest degree
afraid that any Land Commission which
may be appointed will be likely to give
the crofters too much, or will do any-
thing that is wrong or unjust. The
adoption of the Amendment will save a
great deal of discussion in the future.
The Government will appoint men who
can be trusted to do justice between the
landlords and the people, and we should
give them the usual latitude in deciding
what land should be included, and what
not.
DR. CAMERON (Glasgow, College):
I hope the Committee will adopt the
Amendment in the interests of the
cottars who may live just outside of
crofting parishes, and would constantly
be debarred from any benefit under the
Act. All crofting parishes in which
there are crofters should come within
the area of the Bill, and all cottars also,
otherwise great injustice will be done.
I therefore trust that the Lord Advocate
will accept the Amendment.
Ms. FRASER-MACKINTOSH
(Inverness-shire) : This limitation of
"crofting parish" is one which I am
afraid will affect a great part of the
counties included in the Bill. I think
there ought to be no restriction what-
ever; but wherever there are crofters
the provisions of the Bill should apply to
them. I would ask those hon. Members
who represent the crofters, and all Mem-
bers friendly to them, to take a decided
stand on this point, and I trust that the
hon. Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Mac-
farlane) will not withdraw the Amend-
ment.
DR. CLARK (Caithness): One of the
complaints made by the crofters was


{COMMONS}


85 Crofter8 (Scotland)






37 Crofters (Scotland)


that they were rack-rented; but the
Royal Commission only report four in-
stances of rack-rented estates visited by
them, and they will not be affected if
the Committee pass this clause, so that,
under the definition contained in the
Bill, certain localities where this legis-
lation is more required than almost any-
where else in Scotland will be entirely
debarred from coming in. It has been
found in a great many districts that the
crofters have been compelled to become
leaseholders, and when once a crofter
becomes a leaseholder he ceases to be a
crofter under the Definition Clause, and
he is deprived of the benefit of the Bill.
Before the Land Commission can begin
their operations at all it will be neces-
sary for them to spend six or 12 months
in trying to discover what the crofting
parishes are under the definition given
here. In the next place, after a great
expenditure of money and time, they
may arrive at a conclusion as to what
are the crofting parishes, and then the
other clauses of the Bill step in and
operate, so that by the time the Com-
missioners have completed their pre-
liminary investigation there will be no
crofters at all to whom the principles of
the Bill can be extended. I trust that
my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll-
shire (Mr. Macfarlane) will divide the
Committee upon his Amendment, and
that his proposal will be carried, so that
the Commissioners will be able to begin
their work at once without having to
waste eight or 12 months in finding out
where the Act is to operate.
Mr. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester,
E.): I am very unwilling to interpose in
the discussion; but I think there is one
consideration which it is important for
the Committee to bear in mind. As the
Bill is based on a certain historic view
of the crofters' rights it is absolutely
essential that that historic basis should
be kept constantly in view. For that
reason I regard it as of vital importance
that the Government should adhere to
the Bill as they have framed it, and
confine the exceptional legislation here
initiated to those classes which, in the
view of the Government, have lost some
of the rights which it is now desired by
the Government to restore.
Mn. MACFARLANE: When I moved
the Amendment I did it in the fewest
words possible, because I imagined that
there could be no difficulty about the


matter. Even the speech of the Lord
Advocate led me to believe that he him-
self would make no difficulty. He cer-
tainly accused me of going too far; but,
as my hon. Friend the Member for
the College Division of Glasgow (Dr.
Cameron) has pointed out, the clause of
the right hon. and learned Gentleman
himself goes very much too far, and
would, if adopted as it stands, make a
very considerable difference to the very
poorest class of persons who will receive
benefit under the Bill. But that is the
way throughout the clauses of the Bill.
A clause is inserted which professes to
give some benefit to the crofters; and
then there are provisoes and sub-sections
which impose such restrictions and
limitations that the clause becomes
altogether valueless. That is the in-
variable rule. The right hon. and
learned Gentleman has not yet answered
the objection of the hon. Member for
Glasgow (Dr. Cameron) that the effect
of this clause will be to exclude the
cottars from the benefits proposed by
the Bill. Does the right hon. and
learned Gentleman intend that they
should be so included, and that there
should be a general survey of Scotland
to lay down what are the crofting
parishes which are included within the
scope of the Bill ?
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): I hope that before the dis-
cussion is closed the right hon. and
learned Gentleman will answer the ap-
peal of my hon. Friend, and explain
who it is who are to be entitled to com-
pensation under Part IV. of the Bill.
He has already consented to make the
definition of a crofter wider than was
originally intended. There may, how-
ever, be a large number of cottars who
will be entitled to compensation under
the Bill; and it is not contended that
they are provided for. As to the his-
torical question, if we are to confine the
Bill to the crofters with grazing land
and common rights of pasturage, very
few persons would be benefited by it.
But arable land has now been admitted,
and some portion of the cottars are to be
benefited; and I wish to know whether
the Lord Advocate proposes to exclude
from the benefit of this clause those per-
sons who are entitled to compensation
under Part IV. of the Bill, and what are
to become of crofters who do not happen
to belong to crofting parishes?
C 2 [Lixth Night.]


JAPitm, 19, 18861


(-Y, 2) Bill. 38







39 Crofters (Scotland)


MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I hope the
Committee will not be prepared to enter
into matters of this kind which have al-
ready been fully discussed, seeing that
it is most desirable to get through with
the Bill. There is certainly no intention
in the Bill to give the kind of benefits
proposed to every cottager throughout
Scotland generally, or to every cottager
in particular counties; but when it has
been ascertained that the parish is a
crofting parish upon the historical basis,
then we assume that many of those who
are found in those areas may at one time
have had a connection with the soil and
been deprived of their crofts. It is,
therefore, proposed to extend the bene-
fits of the Act to such persons, and thus
go beyond the persons who now answer
the description of crofters; but certainly
there is no intention of giving these
benefits to every cottager throughout
the Lowlands, irrespective altogether of
his historical connection with the soil.
Question put.
The Committee divided:.-Ayes 152;
Noes 95 : Majority 37. (Div. List,
No. 78.)
Mn. M'CULLOCH (Glasgow, St.
Rollox): I have an Amendment on the
Paper to strike out from the clause the
names of the counties in which the
crofting parishes are situate; but as
the Government have already intimated
that the Bill is not be extended beyond
the districts which have been reported
on by the Royal Commission, I do not
propose to move it.
Da. CLARK (Caithness): I move to
insert, after "Argyll," the words "Bute
and Arran." The object of the Amend-
ment is to include the Islands of Bute
and Arran among the crofting parishes
which are to come within the provisions
of the Bill. Bute and Arran contain
numerous crofting parishes, and every-
thing that applies to a Highland county
will apply to both of those Islands.
The great bulk of the crofters there
hold the land they occupy under the
Duke of Hamilton. They are all them
tenants at will, and although the deer
come down and eat up their crops, if they
make any objection they are turned out.
All the evils which exist in the High-
lands, and which it is the main object of
this Bill to remedy, are to be found in
the Island of Arran, and fully entitle it
to be included within the scope of the


Bill. The crofters there complain loudly
of their condition, and their grievances
are as fully deserving of redress as
those of the crofters in any other
locality.
Amendment proposed, in page 7,
line 29, after the word Argyll," to in-
sert the words "Bute and Arran."-
(Dr. Clark.)
Question proposed, "That those words
be there inserted."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): My hon.
Friend (Mr. M'Culloch) rightly under-
stood and stated the view of the Govern-
ment on this matter. The Bill was
brought in on the information contained
in the Report of the Royal Commission.
We have no authentic knowledge-in-
deed, no knowledge whatever-on which
we should be justified in submitting
proposals to Parliament with respect to
any other localities; and, in these cir-
cumstances, I should not feel warranted
in asking Parliament to extend the area
of this Bill to places not visited by the
Royal Commission, and upon which the
Commissioners have not reported. The
scope of the Commissioners' inquiry was
general, and not limited to the High-
lands. Their first duty was to inform
themselves of the parts of the country
which seemed to demand their investi-
gation, and to report upon them. I
think we are bound to assume that the
Commissioners executed that duty, and
made their Report in regard to those
places the peculiar social and economic
conditions of which justify this legisla-
tion. Therefore, I cannot accept this
Amendment, and in regard to it and
others I am bound to stand by the Bill
as limited.
MR. BEITH (Glasgow, Central): In
one part of the Island of Arran the
crofters for miles round have been de-
prived of the right of pasture, and
many cases of unjustifiable eviction have
taken place from 1820 down to as late
as 1883. I could name to the Lord
Advocate six distinct glens in this
beautiful Island from which the crofters
have been evicted during that period;
and I am informed that since 1880
the hill pasture has been taken away
from the crofters residing in 10 distinct
localities in the Island of Arran. If
it were not for the situation and attrac-
tiveness of the Island, and, its near-


(No. 2) Bill. 40


{COMMONS}






41 Crofters (Scotland)


ness to Glasgow, the population would
be very badly off indeed. As has
been said by my hon. Friend, all the
tenants are tenants at will or on one
year's lease, and they are in a condition
of subjection to the landlord as bad as
that of any people in any part of Scot-
land. If there are any districts outside
the counties named in the clause to
which the provisions of the Bill ought
to be extended, the Island of Arran is
certainly one of them. I have had one
case placed before me, that of a cottar,
who last year laid out 40 upon his little
cottage. Hitherto he has been able to
let his cottage every season; but he has
just received notice to quit, and his out-
lay of last year, and of previous years,
will be all lost to him. In my opinion,
it is exceedingly desirable that this Is-
land should be included within the scope
of the Bill. The tenants are exactly in
the condition of the crofters in the High-
lands, for whose relief this Bill is in-
tended; and it is of the utmost import-
ance, in their interests, that the Island
should be included.
MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON (Bute):
This question exclusively affects the Is-
lands of Bute and Arran. As represent-
ing the constituency of those Islands, I
think it right to state why I intend, in
the interest of the people there, most
strenuously to oppose this proposal. I
do so with some confidence, because
at every meeting I addressed during
the election I discussed this subject,
and I placed before the electors un-
equivocally the .course I intended to
take if ever this disastrous proposal
were introduced as applicable to the
Island of Arran. Perhaps I may be
allowed to point out to the Committee
some circumstances which appear to me
to be conclusive against the reasonable-
ness of the proposals of the hon. Mem-
ber for Caithness (Dr. Clark). In the
first place, I attach great importance to
the fact which the Lord Advocate has
already communicated to the Committee
-namely, that the Royal Commission
did not visit Arran. It was in their power,
but nevertheless they abstained from
doing so. Anyone who is acquainted
with the beauty and attractiveness of the
Island of Arran will know that it is a most
charming place, and will readily admit
that not only was this an act of self-
denial on their part, but that the fact of
the Royal Commissioners not having


stopped their yacht there on their way
round the Coast of Scotland affords
conclusive evidence that in the opinion
of the Commissioners the condition of
the people of the Island of Arran was
not such as to justify their inclusion in
the present Bill. But, beyond that, therb
is another consideration to which I will
ask the attention of the Committee. I
should have thought that the hon. Gen-
tleman, in making this proposal, would
have pointed out the evils that were to
be remedied, and that he would not have
been content to rest his proposition upon
general assertions or even an individual
case. This Bill is intended as a remedy
for districts where the life of the people
is a failure, and where they have no
means of obtaining subsistence. So far,
however, as the people of Arran are con-
cerned, life, instead of being failure, is a
very great success with them. They are
a set of able, capable, cheerful, prosperous
people; and it is in their interests that
I protest against this proposal, because
it assimilates their fortunes with the
fortunes of those who, however esti-
mable their qualities may be, have not
made those qualities prevail in the battle
of life. The evils which the Bill pro-
poses to remedy will be found to be the
following :-In the first place, that the
holdings of the crofters are miserably
small-so small that no man can make
a livelihood out of them; next, that
there are frequent evictions; thirdly,
that too high a rent is exacted; and,
lastly, that they are without communica-
tion with the rest of the world. These
were the grievances which the Royal
Commission was appointed to inquire
into, and from every one of them the
Island of Arran is perfectly free. I
should like to give some figures, which
to my mind are not only instructive but
will enable the Committee to get at the
root of this question. I am sure that
hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the
Committee will admit that the first of
the grievances which I have enumerated
-namely, the miserable smallness of the
holdings-was the principal feature of
that inquiry of the Commissioners; and
the best illustration I can give is the
statistical account which the Commis-
sioners give of the four parishes, as
typical and characteristic of the evils
they desired to remedy. According to
the Report of the Royal Commission,
taking the holdings under 30 rent,
[Sixth XNght.]


JArniL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill. 42







43 Crofters (Scotland)


85 per cent had a less rental than 6.
I have obtainedinformation of the hold-
ings this year in the Island of Arran of
a corresponding class-namely, under
30 rent-and I find that instead of
85 per cent there are only 9 per cent
under 6. It is further said that in the
erofting districts in the Island of Arran
there is a miserable monotony of small
holdings. That is not the case in Arran.
There are a variety of holdings ranging
from 6 a-year to a much higher figure.
Is it the case that they are condemned
to live where there is no other occupa-
tion ? That also is distinctly not the
fact; and I may tell the Committee that
one of the main occupations of a large
and most respectable portion of my
constituents in Arran is that of letting
lodgings to visitors during the summer.
Therefore, instead of being destitute of
any occupation except that of agricul-
ture, they have a very agreeable and
lucrative occupation during the summer
months. I believe also, and it does
them great credit, that they are pros-
perous. Another point bearing upon
this question is this-that under one of
the provisions of the 1st clause of the
Bill a crofter is precluded from sub-
letting his holding, and from taking
benefit under it. I believe that the
right lion. and learned Gentleman the
Lord Advocate is under a promise to
bring up a clause to deal with this
matter of sub-letting; but if it is to
apply to Arran, the result would be that
many of these persons who give up
possession of their houses for several
months in the year would receive no
benefit under the Bill. But, whether it
applies ornot, oneof the chief features of
distinction between the case of the people
of Arran and of the crofters in the
Highlands is that the former have
another occupation and another source
of livelihood. Then, again, there is a
considerable amount of fishing, and a
good deal is now being done to further
the interests of the fishermen. A pier
has already been put up, and a harbour
will probably be soon established in
Loch Ranza. Therefore, there are not
among this community the privations
and the absence of the opportunity
for self-elevation which exist in the
districts to which the Bill more properly
applies. I am not going to weary the
Committee by entering into an alterca-
tion with the hon. Gentleman the Mem-
Alr. J. P. B. Robertson


ber for Caithness (Dr. Clark) as to a
question of facts. I have in my recol-
lection an incident which occurred a
short time ago in reference to a state-
ment of the hon. Gentleman. The hon.
Gentleman asserted that a particular
individual paid 80 rent. I stated that
he had never paid more than 33; butthe
hon. Member declined to accept my cor-
rection. In this case the hon. Member
made a reference to the Duke of Hamil-
ton. It is right to say that the commu-
nity of Arran is attached to the Duke
of Hamilton, who is the proprietor, by
more than a mere commercial tie. The
Dukes of Hamilton have been the
Chiefs of the people of the Island for
generations, and every man in the
Island, unless he is trying to conciliate
the momentary favour of a Glasgow
Radical, would say that he regards the
Duke of Hamilton with feelings of
personal regard and friendship. I am
bound to say that I do not think it is
very creditable to certain politicians that
they have tried their clumsy artifices
on a population enjoying prosperity in
attempting to stir up discontent where
there is no ground for discontent. The
last point I would mention as one
of the objects of the investigation of the
Royal Commission is the want of com-
munication with the outer world. For-
tunately, in the case of the Island of
Arran there is constant steam communi-
cation, and the people of the Island see
a great deal of the outer world. Their
sons go out to Glasgow and elsewhere
for employment, and ,do credit to the
district to which they belong. Conse-
quently, on that point as well, there is
no similarity between the condition of
the population of Arran and that of the
crofters in the Highlands of Scot-
land. The result of applying this Bill
to Arran would be most detrimental to
the welfare of the community. My
theory about Arran is that the Island
should be for the Arran people-that the
Arran people should live and thrive
there. It is always said, Arran for the
Arranpeople;" andI oppose this Amend-
ment, because it seems to me that to ex-
tend this Bill to Arran might lead to a
gradual depletion of the population,
carrying the Arran people away and
substituting strangers in their place.
One of the most important features of
this Bill is the provision for the fixing
of judicial rents. I challenge contra-


{COMMONS }


(Xo. 2) Bill. 444






45 Crofters (Scotland)


diction from anyone who has the slightest
knowledge of the subject when I say
that if you send down a Judicial Com-
mission to consider what rents ought to
be paid in Arran, the result would be to
bring about a general raising of rents.
The reason for that is this. The land of
Arran is valuable, not merely for small
farms, but from the attractiveness of the
beautiful scenery and other character-
istics it is valuable also for residences;
and if this Bill is to apply to Arran, and
the system of fixing judicial rents is to
be adopted, it would be the duty of the
Commissioners to ascertain how much a
place would let for, not in view of its
being a holding, but as a lodging-house,
and the result would be that they would
screw up these unfortunate people, who
are now enjoying a moderate rent, to
what would practically be a watering-
place rent. Another point to which I
attach special weight is this. I have
said that the relations of the people and
the principal proprietor of the Island are
of the most harmonious character. I
do not say that that is the result of
special indulgence on his part. I main-
tain that the qualities of the people de.
mand and deserve the treatment they
receive. I would, however, ask the Com-
mittee to consider this view of the case.
Suppose you in this Bill introduce the
Land Commission between the people
and the proprietor, and that this should
have the effect of taking away the in-
terest which the proprietor at present
takes in the administration of his own
estate, would the people hereafter get
the same terms they get now? Would
they not, under the 1st clause of the
Bill, be placed in a much worse position
than that which they now occupy? I
am afraid that the proprietor of the
Island, being deprived of his interest in
the property, would be open to the
temptation of putting up a villa here
and a lodging-house there all over the
place, and in the end the present tenants
would be deprived of the advantage they
now enjoy-namely, the monopoly of
letting lodgings. That would, I am
afraid, be the result of adopting this
Amendment, and it is a result which,
in the interests of these people, I should
deeply deplore. I think it is only right
to add that I have spoken now to the
Committee in precisely the same way as
I did when before my constituents at the
last election. And I speak also with


a thorough knowledge of the place,
having visited nearly every house in
Arran. It is quite true.fthat the
people of Arran are Highlanders, and,
of course, to that extent they have a
distant connection with the suffering
people who are the objects of this legis-
lation. It is a natural ambition for
people who are a little out-of-elbows
themselves to endeavour to walk down
the street alongside their better-off
neighbours, and assume a distant re-
lationship. I am prepared to do any-
thing for those who have been less pros-
perous than their brethren in the Island
of Arran; but I think it is a stretch of
friendship to ask the people of Arran to
place themselves under the provisions of
this Bill. The hon. Member for Glasgow
(Mr. Beith) made some remarks in the
early part of the discussion, and I am
bound to say that I was very much sur-
prised at the statements he made. My
belief is that the effect of adopting this
proposal would be to disestablish the
crofters in the Island of Arran alto-
gether, and in reality to hand over their
places to others. Of course, I know
very well that the hon. Gentleman thinks
that the best thing you can do to anybody
of men is to disestablish and disendow
them; and I am somewhat inclined to
believe that he is desirous of applying
his favourite theory to my constituents.
I trust that the question will be 'con-
sidered by the Committee entirely in the
interests of the people of Arran, and
that they will decline to back up the
random statements of hon. Gentleman
below the Gangway on the other side of
the House-statements which, in my
opinion, are met and confuted by the
marked abstention of the Royal Com-
mission from visiting the Island of Arran,
even for the purpose of inquiry-an
evident proof that they knew the Island
required none of the remedies provided
by the present Bill. The introduction
of this system may be appropriate to
some places, but it is not required in the
Island of Arran. Its application there
would simply be to throw a dark cloud
over the modest prosperity at present
enjoyed by the people, and which is
largely due to their own virtues.
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll): I am
sorry to hear from the hon. and learned
Member for Buteshire (Mr. J. P. B.
Robertson), that his constituents are not
prepared to march through Coventry with
[Sixth Night.]


JAPRIL 19, 1886)


(No. 2) X71l. 46







47 Crofters (Scotland)


the rest of the population of the High-
lands. Am I to understand from the
Lord Advocate that the Bill will only be
applicable to the places visited by the
Royal Commission ?
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: If I said
" places," I meant counties.
Da. CAMERON (Glasgow, College):
If the places visited by the Royal Com-
mission were to be made the criterion of
the extent of the operation of the Bill,
we should probably have to include
Glasgow and Edinburgh, as those places
were visited by the Commissioners, as
well as a number of other large towns,
and evidence was read in relation to
some of the outlying districts in the
Highlands. Possibly, the fact that the
Com-issioners were wrecked in the
gunboat placed at their disposal by the
Government accounts for their not visit-
ing Arran, and to the absence of any
confirmation from that Island of the
facts adduced in evidence elsewhere. It
is to be regretted that the Commissioners
did not visit a place which we have heard
so temptingly described by the hon. and
learned Gentleman. The Commissioners
are to be instructed to decide what are
to be crofting parishes. The Royal
Commissioners did not visit Arran, and
consequently there is no official Report
about that Island, and I apprehend that
if the Bill passes, in its present form, it
will be the duty of the Land Commis-
sion appointed under it to decide whe-
ther any and what parts of the country
are crofting parishes, and whether Arran
is properly to be considered a crofting
island or parish. It seems to me that
the clause which we decided a short time
ago, in the shape in which it now stands,
affects this matter. As the hon. and
learned Gentleman has pointed out, the
houses in the Island of Arran are, as a
matter of fact, sub-let during some por-
tion of the year, and the people of the
Island do something for themselves
during the summer which would prevent
them from coming within the scope of
this Bill. But I wish to point out, that
as we make it the duty of the Commis-
sioners to decide what is a crofting and
what is not a crofting district, there is
no necessity for restricting unnecessarily
the operation of the Bill by refusing to
include in it what are properly Highland
counties.
ME. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire) :
I would suggest to my hon. Friend the
Mr. Macfarlane


Member for Caithness (Dr. Clark) that
he should add to his proposal an Amend-
ment which stands in my name lower
down-namely, to include the counties of
"Nairn, Moray, Banff, Aberdeen, Kin-
cardine, Forfar, and Perth." It would
be unadvisable, I think, to take more
than one division as to which of the
Highland counties are to be included. I
would therefore ask my hon. Friend to
amend his Amendment, by adding after
Bute and Arran all the counties which
are really Highland counties. I do not
see any reason why there should be
any limitation. They are all Highland
counties, and the conditions of the
crofters in them are very much the same
as in the area to which the Bill at pre-
sent applies. If their grievances are
not so apparent, it is owing to the
fact that they are endowed with greater
patience than their brethren of the
Western Highlands. Now, I think
it is a most unfortunate principle for
Parliament to go upon, that they will
consider only the case of those who have
made themselves troublesome, and who
have been riotous and disorderly, and
that while people remain quiet and or-
derly they will do nothing for them. It
is a stimulus and encouragement to the
crofters of other parts of the country
who have borne their grievances
quietly to follow the example of their
more turbulent brethren. I will there-
fore propose to amend the Amendment
by adding, after Bute and Arran," the
words Nairn, Moray, Banff, Aberdeen,
Kincardine, Forfar, and Perth."
Amendment proposed to proposed
Amendment, by adding, after the word
"Arran," the words "Nairn, Moray,
Banff, Aberdeen, Kincardine, Forfar,
and Perth."-(Jlr. J. TI. Barclay.)
Question proposed, "That those words
be there added."
DR. CLARK (Caithness): I have no
objection to accept the Amendment sug-
gested by my hon. Friend, and there
would then be only one division as to all
the Highland counties which are pro-
posed to be included. But I wish to
say a word or two by way of reply to
the observations of the hon. and learned
Gentleman the Member for Buteshire
(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson). In the first
place, the Royal Commission merely
went to the places they were asked to
visit, and they were the worst districts


IcoMiMONSI


(No. 2) Bill. 4






49 Crofters (Scotland)


in the Highlands. They could not, in
the time they had at their disposal, visit
the Islands in the South-West, because
they started at Skye, and by the time
they got to Lewis they had lost their
gunboat. For this reason they held
meetings in Edinburgh and Glasgow,
and at the latter place they received in-
formation as to Islay and Mull and other
Islands. If the argument for the exclu-
sion of Arran holds good, it would apply
equally to Islay and other Islands as
large. As to the condition of Arran, I
do not agree with the rose-coloured pic-
ture the hon. and learned Member has
drawn to day. I know Arran quite as
well as the hon. and learned Gentleman,
and my view is very different from that
which he has presented. It is somewhat
curious how very inaccurate the hon.
and learned Gentleman is in regard to
his facts. When the hon. Member for
Lanarkshire raised this question some
time ago I corrected the hon. and learned
Gentleman, and I feel called upon to do
so again. In regard to the case of the
crofter whose rent was sought to be
raised on his making a building im-
provement, what I said was that the
rent was raised to 80; but that sum
was never paid, because my hon. Friend
the Member for Glasgow raised the
question, and the landlord at once
offered to reduce it. He proposed 40,
and it now stands at 33. We have
been told about the relations of the
Duke of Hamilton with his tenants in
the Island of Arran. I will remind the
hon. and learned Member that for 15
years prior to 1880 the estate was
managed by a trustee, and not by the
Duke. During this time a small crofter,
who had a croft of 18 acres, pulled down
a black house and built a white one,
and at the end of a short lease he had
his rent raised from 18 to 33, and
that was not for anything done by the
Duke. There was not one acre added
to the farm, and the increased rent was
simply attempted to be put on because
the tenant had pulled down a black
house and erected a white one. The
property thus built was sought to be
stolen or legally confiscated by his Grace,
who is a Prince, and holds two or three
Dukedoms. It was an immoral act, and
if the Duke had got what he ought to
get he would have been imprisoned for
stealing. By-and-bye I hope to see the
law applied to Dukes as well as to pick-


pockets. If the Committee refuse to
put the tenants of the Duke of Hamilton
into this Bill, all the crofters there may
share the fate of this poor man, and if
they do anything to their farms they
may have their property confiscated. I
have no objection to the course the Lord
Advocate is taking in refusing Amend-
ments, because the result will be that in
the next Parliament there will be more
extreme men than now appear. We,
the moderate men, will give way to the
extreme men, and, instead of us, you
will have men representing the Land
Restoration League in Scotland, who
now come to our meetings and fight
against us, as we are fighting the land-
lords. I congratulate the right hon. and
learned Lord Advocate upon the part he
is taking in playing into the hands of
the Land Restoration League. By-and-
bye the right hon. and learned Gentle-
man will find that he has a very different
class of men to deal with than the mode-
rate men who now represent the High-
land crofters. We are told there is to
be a pier at Loch Ranza, but that pier
at Loch Ranza will not give the poor
fishermen milk for their children. When
we are passing a measure which is to
give practical perpetuity of tenure to the
crofter, and prevent his landlord from
disestablishing him, are we to be told
that it is either just or equitable to ex-
clude from it the Island of Arran ? The
Duke of Hamilton holds the whole of
that Island and uses it for sport, having
the crofters entirely at his mercy. One
year the rent is raised and the next the
deer come down and eat all the corn.
What is the use of passing a Hares and
Rabbits Act when, as long as these men
are tenants at will, the moment they
complain they are turned out? The
condition of the crofters in the Island of
Arran is exactly that of the crofters in
those parts of the Highlands to which
the Bill applies. I quite agree with my
hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire
(Mr. J. W. Barclay) that the Bill should
apply to all Highland counties equally,
and we could, by adopting the sug-
gestion of my hon. Friend, settle the
question of their inclusion by one divi-
sion. In order to secure that object, I
shall be glad to withdraw my Amend-
ment in favour of his.
SIR DONALD OURRIE (Perthshire,
W.): I understand that the Amendment
which I have on the Paper for including
[ ixth NighM.]


JArRIL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill. 60






51 Crofters (Scotland)


the county of Perth will be virtually set
aside by a decision upon the proposal of
the hon. Member for Forfarshire (Mr.
J. W. Barclay), who desires to add words
that will include the counties of Nairn,
Moray, Banff, Aberdeen, Kincardine,
and Forfar, as well as Perth. If that
Amendment be rejected by the Com-
mittee, I shall be debarred from moving
the addition of Perth to the Bill;
and I will, therefore, venture to place
before the Committee as briefly as I
can, upon the present Amendment, the
reasons which induce me to desire to
bring Perth within the scope of the mea-
sure. In regard to Arran, I resided
there for several years, and I do not
know that there are many places in the
Highlands which claim more considera-
tion than Arran. I have known crofters
there who have had their crofts damaged
by the depredations of deer; and I
have also seen their crops damaged
by game, both ground and winged.
With regard to Perthshire, I may not
only be debarred from moving my
Amendment, but I may be told by
the hon. and learned Gentleman oppo-
site (Mr. J. P. B. Robertson) that the
Royal Commission did not visit it. Being
an inland county, they could not very
well get there by boat, but they could
have got there by railway. It certainly
appears to me that the Commission did
not extend its visits to all the districts
requiring examination, by reason of the
approach of the latter days of August,
and the desire expressed by the Govern-
ment that they should terminate their
labours. The Commissioners conse-
quently stayed their investigation, and
the counties of Perth and Aberdeen as
well as the Island of Arran were not
favoured with a visit. But the neces-
sity was there all the same, and
the grievance of the Perthshire crofters
is none the less a grievance than
that which is felt by the crofters of
other parts of the Highlands. I have
received from a factor in the county a
letter in which he urges that Perthshire,
at least that part of it known as the
Highlands of Perthshire, should be in-
cluded in the area covered by this Bill,
as the position of the Perthshire crofters
is, in.some instances, just the same as
that of other crofters. They are less
demonstrative, and they are law-abiding
men. A clergyman in the county has
also written to me on the subject, say-
Sir Donald Currie


ing that it is to him a great mystery
that such a county should be excluded,
and expressly mentioning that there
are hundreds of crofters whose griev-
ances call for redress. A deputation of
crofters not very far from my own resi-
dence have represented to me that they
are most anxious that the Bill should be
extended to Perthshire, and begging me
to do all that I can in their behalf. A
good deal has been said about the his-
toric basis; but if there is any part of
Scotland which claims historic associa-
tions it is Perthshire. During the French
War some 3,000 fencibles were raised
from the districts within the district of
Breadalbane. The Black Watch was
embodied as a regiment at Aberfeldy.
At the famous reception of Her Majesty
at Taymouth:Castle by the first Marquess
of Breadalbane there were 1,000 of his
men in uniform to receive her; and now
how many of that class could be got to-
gether in that district? If it is desir-
able to give the benefit of this Bill to
the crofters in the West Highlands,
it is right to extend it to Perthshire;
and I therefore press on the attention of
the Committee the claim of my Amend-
ment for the addition of Perthshire to
Clause 16.
Ms. ESSLEMONT (Aberdeen, E.):
I think, that as one of the Members for
the county of Aberdeen, I am entitled
to claim the indulgence of the Com-
mittee; but I do not propose to detain
them at any considerable length. As
my hon. Friend the Member for the
Western Division (Dr. Farquharson)
well knows, there are more agricultural
holdings in Aberdeen than in any other
county in Scotland, and if there is any
county which deserves the consideration
of the Legislature, it is Aberdeen. Many
of the tenants are very small tenants.
They are extremely enterprizing, and
have turned a barren desert into one of
the most productive counties in the
Kingdom. I desire, then, to call the
attention of the Committee to the pre-
cise position in which the crofters of
Aberdeen stand in regard to this matter.
At the meeting of the Scotch Members,
it was quite understood that all of what
are called Highland counties would be
included within the scope of the Bill,
and that there was no object in exclud-
ing them. I do not propose to reply to
the speech of the hon. andlearned Mem-
ber for Buteshire (Mr. J. P. B. Robert-


{COMMONS }


(NoO. 2) Bill. 52






53 Crofters (Scotland)


son), but I would ask him to accept the
Reference to the Royal Commission as
entirely applicable to the county of
Aberdeen. The hon. and learned Gen-
tleman was returned to Parliament as a
Representative who had nothing to do
with the Crofters' Question. I, on the
other hand, was elected as a crofters'
candidate, and was hard pressed to give
full consideration to every question which
can affect the interests of the agricul-
tural labourers and the crofters. I hold
in my hand letters from large communi-
ties in Aberdeenshire which take a deep
interest in these matters, and have held
public meetings in support of the crofters'
claims. Representations upon the sub-
ject have come to me from communities
of crofters varying in number from 35
to i00, and the Resolutions they have
passed in favour of legislation have been
forwarded to me. It is only right that
I should direct the attention of the Com-
mittee to these facts. We have been told
that we may save ourselves any trouble
with regard to the Islands of Bute and
Arran, and the hon. and learned Mem-
ber for Buteshire has told us that the
people of Arran do not want this legis-
lation applied to them. But what are
the facts in regard to the county of
Aberdeen? If that county is included
within the scope of the Bill, it will be
necessary before the legislation can take
effect that the crofters must make an
application to the Land Commission, and
appear before the Commission to state
their case. But why should the people
of Aberdeen be excluded because the
people of Bute and Arran do not choose
to come under the Bill ? Those who are
in charge of the Bill will be safeguarded
in every way. I do not ask that the
crofters of Aberdeen shall have all the
advantages of the Bill conferred upon
them. All I ask is that we should not
pass an Act of Parliament which will
expressly exclude them. There is no
reason that I can see for so doing, except
the reason which is apparent from the
Benches opposite that anything that is
done for the agricultural labourer, the
crofter, or the tenant, should be opposed.
We have a Member for Aberdeen (Mr.
Bryce) on the Treasury Bench, who will
vote for us, and all the Northern Mem-
bers are practically in favour of includ-
ing Aberdeenshire. I submit, therefore,
that it would be a most reasonable con-
cession. I have never adopted the course


of railing at the landlords. I believe
that many of them, considering the cir-
cumstances in which they have been
placed, have acted generously and be-
nevolently, and have studied the interests
of their tenants as far as they could; but
all landlords are not alike, and what we
want is that those who have not dis-
played an equal amount of generosity
should be compelled by the Legislature
to follow the example of their neigh-
bours. It is upon that ground that I
claim the indulgence of the Committee;
and, seeing that every interest is safe-
guarded by the provisions of the Bill,
I do hope that there will scarcely be an
hon. Member who will feel himself called
upon to vote for the exclusion of these
Highland counties. It ought to be very
easy to convince the Committee that
there can be no justification for excluding
any Highland county from a right to de-
mand at the hands of the Land Com-
mission a consideration of its claims.
That is all that we ask-namely, that
Parliament should give us the right of
having our case heard. In one of the
letters which I have received it is stated
that about 50 years ago 37 crofters took
from a proprietor 20 acres of land, for
which they paid 20s. a-year, or 1s. per
acre. Having held the land for 10 years
the rent was raised to 4 a-year, and at
the end of another term of 10 years it
was raised to 10 a-year. At the pre-
sent moment the rent is 14, and yet
during the whole of this period not ls.
has been spent upon it by the pro-
prietor. Every Id. for improvements
has been expended by the tenants. Do
these men require no consideration or
thought? No injury whatever can be
inflicted upon the landlord, because he
already receives 148. for what was
originally worth 1s. Why, then, should
nothing be done for the crofters, and
upon what grounds should the Com-
mittee exclude these Northern counties
from the benefits of the Bill? If they
do not make out a case before the Com-
mission their application will not be
attended to, and if they cannot show that
their grievances are substantial and de-
serve consideration they will get no
redress. I am not going to hold out any
threat; but I do seriously warn the
Committee that, as has been said already,
the agricultural classes have been long
suffering in Aberdeenshire; that they
have now come to this House with a de-
[Sixth Night.]


JAPRIL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill. 54







55 Crofters (Scotland)


demand for this concession, and if
Parliament consents to grant it, it will
do a great deal to satisfy the wants and
wishes of a most deserving class of the
community.
Dn. FARQUHARSON (Aberdeen-
shire, W.) : As that part of Aberdeen-
shire which I have the honour to repre-
sent is deeply interested in this question,
I feel it my duty to say a few words in
support of the claim of that county to
be included in the Bill. I had myself
given Notice of an Amendment to this
effect, and should certainly have moved
it if the opportunity had offered. I
think it is very unfortunate that the
Lord Advocate should have proposed to
exclude any county on the mere ground
that the Royal Commission had not
visited it in the course of its investiga-
tions. The voyage of the Commissioners
was necessarily limited, owing to the
accident which befel the vessel that took
them out; but I do not see that it can
do the Bill any harm by extending its
provisions to other Highland counties
which come strictly within the basis of
the conditions laid down for the guidance
of the Royal Commission. I maintain
that the county which I represent strictly
carries out all these conditions. We
have heard a good deal from the other
side of the House about the historical
basis of the Bill, and if that is to be ad-
hered to, surely there are few counties
in Scotland with greater historical asso-
ciations than Aberdeenshire. The Aber-
deen Free Press has published a series of
events which have happened in connec-
tion with the county, which show that
in many districts there used formerly to
be crofters, but that they have now been
evicted owing to the large clearances
which have been made for the sake of
getting rid of small farms and holdings.
In many instances the land has been
reclaimed by the crofter without the
slightest help from his landlord, and
the position of the Aberdeenshire small
tenants gives them every right to claim
the benefits of the Bill. They have
pasturage in common with others, and
they are absolutely defenceless against
evictions and other evils of that kind.
I do not endorse everything that has
been said against the landlords. I do
not think that all landlords are desirous
any more than I to look upon all tenants
as angels. Very often a landlord may
be tied down by a trust, or he may
Mr. Esslemont


employ a factor, and is unable to give
effect to his generous impulses. These
small crofts are generally very much
coveted, and like Naboth's vineyard are
oftenliable to be swallowed up by larger
and richer neighbours. They certainly
ought, in my opinion, to be placed in a
secure position of defence against the
encroachments to which they are sub-
jected. We have heard to-night that
the people of Aberdeen are peaceable,
orderly, and law-abiding. It is hard
indeed that they should be told, in con-
sequence, that before their grievances
can command consideration they must
adopt tactics which have only been too
successful in other places. I think it
would be most unfortunate to teach
them that that is their only means of
obtaining the redress of their grievances.
We know very well how narrow the
margin is which keeps these people from
starvation, and we should not only be
prepared to approach them in a kindly
spirit, but to welcome gladly any pro-
posal made in this House to relieve
their wants. It is solely in the interests
of the tenants and small farmers that I
have made these remarks; and if the
Lord Advocate has made up his mind
not to accept this Amendment, I think
it only right that the Representatives of
county constituencies in Scotland which
contain persons in precisely the same
position as those whose case is dealt
with by the Bill, should let the right
hon. and learned Gentleman know what
the wishes of their constituents are.
Question put, and agreed to.
Question put, 'That the words 'Bute,
Arran, Nairn, Moray, Banff, Aberdeen,
Kincardine, Forfar, and Perth,' be in-
serted after the word Argyll.' "
The Committee divided;--Ayes 87;
Noes 126: Majority 39.-(Div. List,
No. 79.)
Mn. RAMSAY (Falkirk, &c.): The
object I have principally in view in
moving the Amendment in my name is
to exclude from the operation of the Act
the Islands of Islay, Jura, and Colon-
say. No reason can be shown for in-
cluding them; there has been no dis-
putation and no complaints with regard
to holdings in these Islands; there has
been no resistance to the law there; I
have never seen a more law-abiding
population, and I have lived amongst


{COMMONS}


(.Yo. 2) Bill., 56






57 Crofters (Scotland)


them all my life, and can therefore
speak with confidence; but I shall not
dwell upon those particulars any further.
The Islands I refer to are a district of
the county of Argyll, and under the
Roads and Bridges Act were regarded
as a county in themselves. I do not
think that it is at all disrespectful to the
Royal Commission to state that it was
never contemplated they would deal with
any area which they neither examined
nor visited. It has been stated that
there may have been a statement with re-
gard to the Islands; but I must say that
I never heard of any such thing, and I
do not believe that the Royal Commis-
sion ever took any evidence from a
single owner or occupier on the Islands.
Indeed,they never went near the Islands,
which are within three or four hours'
sail of the adjacent coast I am quite
sure my right hon. and learned Friend
the Lord Advocate cannot say that the
Bill was framed to bring these Islands
within its scope. Then I may say that
there is no resident lawyer in the Islands,
which shows that they are not a litigious
people; there is no Sheriff there, and
therefore I think there will be some
difficulty in carrying out the Act there,
because in every clause of it the Bill
involves questions of a legal kind. I
have been for 50 years living in these
Islands, and know the people; and
during that time I was never in a Court
of Law as a suitor, and, therefore, I
think my right hen. and learned Friend
will see that it is rather doing an injus-
tice to include the Islands in question
within the scope of the Bill. The pro-
bability is that the Royal Commission
felt that they ought not to go to places
which they considered it was unneces-
sary to visit. But they might well have
done so. In the Northern Islands one-
fourth of the total population is almost
dependent on charity for their subsist-
ence. I saw a report in The Times that
a house was destroyed a few days since
by some crofters in the Lews; but
in these Islands we have had nothing
of that kind. The people are not to
be supposed to be absolutely con-
tented with the position in which they
are placed, but they are paying their
rents regularly. I therefore do not
think that this Act will do good for a
single poor man in the Hebrides, al-
though it may do good for some of the
richer men, by giving them fixity of


tenure and fair rent; and I say that I
have not had a single complaint from
any one of my small occupiers, nor do I
believe that in any of the Islands a single
complaint has been made. I hope my
right hon.'and learned Friend will assent
to the Amendment which I now beg to
move-
Amendment proposed,
In page 7, line 32, after the word parishes,"
to insert the words but this Act shall not
apply to any island which was neither visited or
examined by the Crofter Commission."-(Mr.
Ramsay.)
Question proposed, "That those words
be there inserted."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): We
cannot accept the Amendment of the
hen. Member. I am not aware exactly
what the number of the Western Islands
is; but I know it is considerable, and
there were some, of course, which the
Royal Commission not only did not, but
could not, visit. They took the counties
by sample and did not visit the whole.
So that the fact that an Island was not
visited by the Commissioners does not
show that it should be excluded from the
scope of the Bill. Then my hon. Friend
said that the steamer passed very near
his Island without landing. I suppose it
must have done the same with regard to
all the Islands on the West Coast where
they did not land ; but that is no reason
for omitting the Islands in question from
the Bill. I contend that there must be a
certain arbitrariness in the localities to
which a measure of this kind applies. I
may be permitted to remark that if the
prosperity of these Islands is such as my
hon. Friend has represented, we need
not have any fear that judicial rent will
be fixed, because the people will not
apply for it.
Mn. RAMSAY: I feel the truth of
what my right hon. and learned Friend
says; but I point out that the Royal
Commission did visit every other Island
in the Hebrides to which their Report
applies ; and their Report does not apply
to those Islands which I have mentioned,
nor to certain others. My right hon.
and learned Friend says he cannot assent
to this Amendment, but I think it is
nothing but just that he should do so. I
do not see that this Bill is likely to bene-
fit a single poor man in the Hebrides,
although, as I have said, it may do some
good for the richer class.
[Sixth INg't.1


'ArRiL 19, 18861


(Xo. 2) BRIl. 58







59 Crofters (Scotland)


DR. R. MACDONALD (Ross and
Cromarty) : I am under the necessity of
saying that I have not heard the speech
of the hon. Member for the Falkirk
Burghs (Mr. Ramsay); but, looking at
the Amendment as it stands upon the
Paper, I point out, what I presume is,
the fault of the printer-namely, that its
grammatical construction is not correct.
I wish to let the Committee understand
what is the meaning of this Amendment.
It is that the hon. Gentleman is unblush-
ingly drawing himself out of this Act.
But in the first place I ought to apolo-
gize to the hon. Gentleman for what I
stated in this House the other night.
My statement was made on the word of
a man who knew the parish, and I am
sorry that I had no other data to go
upon. But we shall see from the Report
of the Royal Commission what is the
condition of the place. It says-

"If you look at the population tables from
1831 to 1881 you willnot find that theparish of
Kildalton and Oa keeps up its population
which it had in 1851; but as soon as Mr. Ram-
say became proprietor and founded a residence
for himself at the head of Loch a Chnoic, we
see the same rule applied which Webster and
the trustees applied so successfully to the rest
of the Island, and in a few years after his suc-
cession the population falls off from 3,310 to
2,283, more than 1,000 disappearing from the
Returns. But these figures do not tell the story
in full. In the division of the estate called Oa,
and which is outside entirely of the wretched
village of Port Ellen, there are only 15
farmers and 23 cottars, where there used to be
99 farmers and 66 cottars; 38 families where
there were 163. Angus M'Cuaig, blacksmith at
Gleann a Mhuiluin, told me that in one of the
little townships he shod 36 horses where he now
shoes four, and not merely this land is not in-
habited, but there is a covering of rushes on it
which renders it incapable of supporting the
stock which should be available for the feeding
of the people elsewhere. It is not tilled, and the
grazing as elsewhere has become too bad for
sheep and cattle, and the chief use I saw it put
to was yielding rushes with which to thatch the
corn stacks of Cornabus and Lag a Mihuiluin;
and let me not forget to state that so far
from the land set free, and at the disposal of
Mr. Ramsay, being bestowed to enlarge the
crofts or farms said to be too small, the whole of
the 82 holdings have gone to augment the pre-
viously existing large farms of Cornabus, Kina-
bus, and Kintrea, and to form another large
one. So that even so intelligent a man as Mr.
Ramsay is not to be trusted to make the best use
of his possessions. Those three farms were
large enough previously, and two of them occu-
pied by two of that class of gentlemen farmers
who were related to some of the leading
families of the county."
Well, Sir, this evidence was given before


the Commission, in reference to this
Island and the district, especially which
is owned by the hon. Member. I wish
to read another statement contained
in a letter from Mr. Donald Ross, Her
Majesty's Inspector of Schools, which
will show what was the educational
condition of the Island on the 4th of
August, 1875. The Report addressed to
the Vice President of the Committee of
Council on Education is as follows :-
"Sir,-I beg to call your special attention to
the very unsatisfactory state of this school. At
least three of the other inspected schools in this
parish are barely efficient. In my Report last
year on Port Ellen public school, I referred to
the unhealthy character of the building and
the locality ; but though the speedy removal of
the children to a healthier spot was urgently
needed, no action of a serious or hopeful na-
ture has been taken. There is a grave respon-
sibility attached to this delay, for, as was in-
evitable, fevers of a very bad type and other
epidemics have swept away a number of the
children during the year, and paralyzed the
efficiency of the school. Thus, in opening the
log-book at random, I find that deaths occurred
from fever on the 5th, 6th, and 9th of November,
and on the 7thand 8th of December. A panic
seized the school, for on the 12th and 13th of
November there were only three pupils pre-
sent, and the number of the teachers was three.
Afterwards the school was removed to a
healthier spot-namely, the Free Church be-
hind the village; but on the day of inspection
it was back in its old quarters. Some of the
children were absent through illness, and the
assistant Inaster was just recovering. In a
school with three male teachers, a head master
of remarkably high character, popular, and es-
teemed in the place, an assistant, and a pupil
teacher, only 25 children could be present for
individual examination. The cause of all this
is a very complex one :-1. The building, which
is very bad. 2. A locality which is very un-
healthy. 3. The village of Port Ellen. This
village is not supplied with water, unless the
little which the natives bring more than a-
quarter of a mile in pitchers be a supply. Itis
badly drained if it is drained at all. It has all
the ordinary marks of poverty and neglect, and
others peculiarly its own. Disease perpetually
nestling in its filth will impair the efficiency of
the new schools, as it has impaired for several
years that of the old. I am unfortunately very
familiar with schools crippled with gross neglect
on the part of the local sanitary authorities,
and I am not sure that there is an authority of
the kind here ; but this is the worst case in most
respects known to me. It is no pleasure to me to
inspect such a school as this, far less to write
such a Report as this.
DONALD Ross."

Here, then, we have two independent
Reports as to the state of this favoured
Island, to which we are told it is not ne-
cessary to apply this Bill. The hon.
Member for Falkirk tells us that there


(No. 2) P171. 60


{COMMONS}






61 Crofters (Scotland)


is no litigation, no Sheriff, and no lawyer
there. Well, then, it must be blest
indeed. But I have authority for
stating that all the crofters who have
been evicted from the estate of the hon.
Member previously signed a paper
stating that they would consent to evic-
tion without going through the ordi-
nary course, and that they did so with-
out knowing what was its effect. I am
sorry to occupy the attention of the
Committee with these matters. But the
hon. Member has himself to thank, for
if he had not brought forward such a
proposal as is now before us, we should
not have shown the nakedness of his
estate.
MR. RAMSAY: Perhaps I may be
allowed to make some explanation after
the serious charges which the hon. Gen-
tleman has brought against me on this
and previous occasions. The hon. Gen-
tleman has said he was mistaken in the
statements which he made the other
night. I suppose he refers to the charge
made against me of having burned some
widow woman to death. [Dr. R. MAc-
DONALD: I apologized for that.] Yes; and
I think if the hon. Member knew the
truth, he would have great reason to
apologize for the other charges he has
made against me to-night. As to the
school reported on by Mr. Ross, it was
a school paid for by myself, and not a
public school in any other sense than
that it was a denominational school.
Two of the schools in the parish at
the date referred to were built at my
own expense; and I do not think it
could be held that it was neglect of the
cause of education on my part that con-
stituted any justification for the Report.
The state of things which the Inspector
referred to was brought under the no-
tice of the Department in London by
myself; and at the time I complained
of his mode of inspecting the school,
the remarks he made about myself, arid
his efforts to stimulate the people to dis-
content. But I do not wish to say any-
thing about him now, because the man
has been in his grave many years; and
I repeat that these were things brought
up at too distant date for me to have
anything to do with them at the present
time. As to the condition of the vil-
lage, the houses are not my property,
they chiefly belong to the people them-
selves, and the charge with regard to
the sanitary arrangements is a charge


against the people of Port Ellen, and not
against me. I do not know that any
owner of the soil would be to blame
for the state of the houses in which the
people live; and, moreover, many of the
people have not paid me ground rent
for a long time past. The sanitary
arrangements, so far as they exist, were
made at my expense; and I recollect,
shortly after buying the property, going
over the houses in the lowest part of
the village, and ordering drains to be
made, and perforated stones to be placed
at the door of each house for the pur-
pose of getting rid of the refuse, and
enabling the people to keep their houses
more tidy and clean than they were
when I saw them. I did that, as I
have said, at my own expense. The
hon. Gentleman speaks very much about
things which have not been done; but
I must say that I have taken an interest
not only in the condition of the people
on my estate, which it was natural that
I should do, but I have also done what
I could to advance the interests of the
locality. Notwithstanding all the defects
pointed to by the hon. Member, I spent
large sums of money on the works to
which reference has been made; and
when I bought the property, there
was no road along the seashore, but
I have since made one. Well, Sir,
I might say more about myself; but I
do not like to have personal matters dis-
cussed in this House. The time of the
House is too valuable for that, and I
willingly leave the charges as to burn-
ing the widow woman and evicting 400
crofters to be verified by the experience
of those who choose to visit the Island
and inquire as to the nature of those
fictions narrated against me by the hon.
Member.
MR. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire): I rise merely for the
purpose of suggesting to my hon. Friend
the Member for the Falkirk Burghs that
he would do well by withdrawing this
Amendment.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester,
E.): I also venture to express a hope
that the hon. Member will not press his
Amendment. It is quite clear that by
the very framework of the Bill some
injustice must be done. Everyone who
has listened to the discussion will admit
that the hon. Member is a good land-
lord; but he is not the only good land-
lord who is affected by the Bill. No
[sixth Night.]


JAPRIL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill. 62







63 Crofters (Scotland)


doubt, if they could, the Government
would be only too ready to exclude him;
but they are probably doing what they
are obliged to do, and therefore I trust
the hon. Member will withdraw his
Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.): I
rise to propose the omission of the last
paragraph of this clause. The objec-
tionable part of the clause is the words
which relate to tenants of holdings at
the passing of this Act," because the
effect of these words is that the opera-
tion of the Bill is confined to persons
who are at the passing of the Act
tenants of holdings. The hon. Member
for Edinburgh argued against freedom
of sale, on the ground that it would in-
volve great hardship on future tenants;
but it turned out that the Bill does
not apply to future tenancies at all.
We were very much surprised on look-
ing at the Bill to find that the operation
of the Act would be limited to those who
were tenants at the passing of the Act.
Take the case of a man who becomes a
crofter the day before the passing of the
Act. What are the rights which this
Bill confers upon him ? In the first
place, it confers upon him the right that
he cannot be evicted for any arbitrary
reason by his landlord, but only for just
cause as set forth in the Bill. Another
right is that he can apply to the Land
Commission to fix a fair rent, which is
clearly defined as rent that does not
include the value of the tenant's im-
provements. He is therefore protected
with regard to the value of his own
property. Thirdly, under certain con-
ditions he may happily acquire addi-
tional land. Now, Sir, I ask why a
person who becomes a crofter two days
later-that is to say, the day after the
Bill is passed-should not have security
of tenure, protection against being rented
on his own improvements, and an oppor-
tunity of obtaining more land ? I should
like to hear from the Lord Advocate any
just distinction that can be drawn between
the two cases. It appears to me that
if the tenant who becomes a holder two
days before the passing of the Act is to
have these rights, there is no just reason
why they should not be conferred on the
man who becomes a tenant a day or two
afterwards. The latter is under the
same conditions as the former; he is
Mr. A. J. Balfour


open to the same danger of having his
property appropriated by the landlord,
stands in equal need of fixity of tenure,
and may equally require more land.
The only protection that the man has
who becomes a crofter after the passing
of the Act is the protection under the
Agricultural Holdings Act (Scotland),
and what protection that is the Com-
mittee may understand from a single
instance. In one case a small tenant sued
for improvements under the Agricultural
Holdings Act; he claimed 8, was al-
lowed 6, and the costs amounted to
48. But I should like to know what
is the difference in principle which gives
the security I have mentioned to one
man and denies it to another who enters
upon precisely the same position a day
or two afterwards ? If the security is a
good thing for the one it is a good thing
for the other. What mysterious agency,
then, changes its character and makes
it a bad thing for the man who becomes
a crofter after 'the passing of the Act ?
I have been trying my ingenuity to dis-
cover what possible reason the Govern-
ment can have for making this dis-
tinction in time and circumstances. But
the secret, I think, is not far to find-the
Bill is merely a sop to Cerberus. If we
study the structure of the Bill we shall
find it is a measure, the operation of
which is strictly, rigorously, and reli-
giously confined to the area of disorder
and disturbance. In parts visited by
Her Majesty's Marines, where there has
been threatening of landlords, deforce-
ment of Sheriffs' officers, and where the
rents have been withheld, there the
beneficence of the Government is felt,
but in no other part of Scotland.
Throughout these discussions the Lord
Advocate has rejected all the Amend-
ments supported by the unanimous opi-
nion of the North of Scotland. Out of
16 Members representing constituencies
North of Forfar the Government through-
out seven days' discussion have only
been able to carry into the Lobby with
them four Members. I do not take all
the divisions, but I take what are fair
and typical divisions, and I find that in
three cases the Government have been
able to get four Members, in three cases
two Members, and in two cases none. I
maintain that the opinion of the North
of Scotland is entirely opposed to the
course the Lord Advocate is taking; and
I say it would have been wiser of the


JCO~mONSJ


(A~o. 2) BILt 64






65 Crofters (Scotland)


right hon. and learned Gentleman if he
had not despised public opinion in the
North of Scotland. Why is it that we
have now reached the seventh day of
this discussion ?
Ms. A. J. BALFOUR: I rise to
Order, Mr. Courtney. I should like to
know if the hon. Gentleman is confining
himself to the Amendment before the
Committee ?
THE CHAIRMAN: I am afraid the
hon. Member is travelling rather wide
of the-Amendment.
MR. HUNTER: I should be wanting
in my duty to the Lord Advocate if I
were not to warn him of the consequences
of rejecting this Amendment. There is
a limit to the forbearance of the most
devoted followers, and that limit is being
rapidly reached on this occasion. Before
I sit down I wish to seriously ask those
independent Members of the Liberal
Party who have allowed themselves to
be led into the Lobby with the Tories
and the Government to pause and con-
sider whether they also are to take a
part in opposition to the opinion of the
entire North of Scotland. I maintain
there is no element in this question
which ought to be considered more than
the opinion of the North of Scotland.
That opinion is entirely against the Lord
Advocate, and simply because he has
framed his Bill on the narrowest pos-
sible lines. By restrictions and quali-
fications he has rendered nugatory those
parts of the Bill which might be of use
and benefit to the crofters.
Amendment proposed, in page 8, line
1, to leave out from the word "within,"
to the word "lease," in line 4.--(Mr.
Hunter.)
Question proposed, "That the words
'within the parishes to which this Act
is determined to apply as aforesaid,'
stand part of the Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALtOUn) (Clackmannan, &c.): There is
a good deal that the hon. Member has
said that I think I may perfectly well
leave to the judgment of the Committee.
I do not know that I can say much, or
anything at all, about it. But as re-
gards the real merits of this matter I
should like to make a few remarks. In
the first place, with respect to this pro-
vision in the Bill. I do not very well
understand how it should have required
anything in the nature of a discovery
VOL. CCCV. [THIRD SERIES.]


for an hon. Gentleman, who himself is
a skilled lawyer, to find out at a late
stage what the scope of the application
of this provision is, because both in the
Bill of last year and in this Bill it has
been declared to apply to crofters who
were tenants of holdings at the passing
of this Act, and to their heirs. That is
very distinct, and, of course, shows that
it does not apply to contracts made after
the passing of the Act, for a reason which,
whether good or bad, presented itself to
the Government, and also, I think, to
the judgment of the House. The reason
why the definition both in last year's
Bill and of this year's Bill is of such a
character is thatno other definition would
be consistent either with the theory of
the Bill, or with what we regard as the
justification of the Bill. If it had been
intended to introduce a provision to de-
clare that everyone who either was at
the time of this Act passing, or who
afterwards became a tenant of land in
Scotland, should acquire fixity of tenure,
the right to fair rent and the right to an
enlargement of his holding, that would
have been intelligible. That is not a
provision of our Bill. That would have
been a much larger proposal than we
make. We desire to recognize in a
generous spirit what is not a strict his-
torical title, but what we believe to be
a certain historical usage. We are pre-
pared to saythatthose who arein the posi-
tion of crofters shall get all these bene-
fits; and not only so, but that all those
who are the heirs of crofters should get
all the benefits of the Bill. I may here
say that I propose to move an Amend-
ment, the object of which is to extend
the definition of heirs so as to include
heirs by bequest. Anyone who knows
anything of the Highlands will be aware
that that is a remarkable and compre-
hensive definition. The extent of High-
land families, of Highland cousinship,
is proverbial; and, therefore, I think my
proposal will take in everybody who has
any sort of historical connection with a
place. Now, just observe what the pro-
posal of the hon. Member (Mr. Hunter)
means. It is not quite correct to say it
will not apply to future holders; his ex-
tension must be intended to cover the
case where strangers take holdings. Let
us see what that amounts to. What
would be the consequence if it were pro-
posed that anyone, whether crofter or
otherwise, who took a holding after the
D [Sixth NigYht.


JArRiL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bfll. 66







67 Crofters (Scotland)


passing of the Act, and who, by a fresh
contract held from year to year, should
come under the operation of the Bill?
It would be this -a person contracts
with the landlord that he shall have a
particular area of ground for a year at.
a certain rent. If the Bill applied to
such a case, the man having made the
contract to-day may to-morrow say-" I
claim this land not for a year, but for
perpetuity. I claim it not at the rent I
agreed to yesterday, but at a fair rent
to be fixed. I claim not the area I
agreed yesterday to rent, but an en-
larged area." In short, the hon. Mem-
ber's (Mr. Hunter's) proposal is that a
man, a new comer, who to-day contracts
for certain things as regards area, rent,
and duration, shall be entitled to-morrow
to overcome all the essentials of his con-
tract.
MA. HUNTER: There is a subse-
quent Amendment which shows that
that is not the proposition I make.
Ms. J. B. BALFOUR : We will. con-
sider that Amendment when we come to
it. What I have stated would be the
effect of striking out the words in ques-
tion. I quite admit that by a subsequent
Amendment the hon. Gentleman gives
seven years as the period during which
the lease is not to be altered. What I
have stated would be the effect of strik-
ing out the words proposed to be left
out, and making the clause applicable
to all crofters, no matter what time they
came. While, therefore, I do not re-
tract what I have said, I quite admit
that in respect of the seven years, but
only in respect of that point, are my
criticisms inapplicable. Now, I put it
to the judgment of the Committee, is
there any example of such a thing in
any civilized country ? I say there is
not. [" Yes; the Irish Act."] I think
it will be found on an examination of
the clauses that future tenancies are
very much more restricted in the Irish
Act than they are by anything suggested
here. Of course, there was nothing like
the boon given by the Irish Act as by
this Bill. [" Oh! "] Well, there was
no permanency of tenancy given, but
only a lease equivalent- to 15 years.
There was no additional land given;
but, however that may be, what I have
laid before the Committee will be the
effect of this proposal. The hon. Mem-
ber has referred to the manner in which
I have, on the part of the Government,
The Lord Advocate


conducted this Bill. That is a matter I am
quite willing to leave to the judgment of
the Committee. As to the opinion of the
North of Scotland, I must say I should
pay very great respect to the opinion of
any part of the country of which I have
the honour to be a native; but, of course,
the opinion of Parliament must be
taken as a whole; in arriving at our de-
cision we must be guided by the wish of
the whole country. I have no doubt
that upon this Amendment the mind of
the Committee is perfectly open to argu-
ment and conviction. I cannot but think
the Committee will see that to strike out
these words would not be consistent with
the theory on which the Bill was framed,
upon which it was presented to the
House, and upon which the House was
persuaded to give it a second reading.
I venture to say that whatever the judg-
ment of the Committee may be I should
regard it as a distinct breach of faith
with the House if the Government were
voluntarily to accept a proposition which
would convert the Bill into something
different from what was intended. I
really do not think the acceptance of the
proposal would be in the interests of the
persons who are likely to become crofters
themselves, because if it is to be said
that no landlord can in future let a piece
of land on certain terms as to duration
and as to rent, without the person with
whom he has made his bargain being
entitled to'ask that his land should be
increased, his rent altered, and that he
should have a permanency, I fear that
landlords will cease to let such land at
all, and there will be great risk of much
injury being done to the crofters.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I think the Committee must be pretty
well convinced by this time of the
worthlessness of this Bill. The Lord
Advocate has referred to the promises
held out when the Bill was introduced.
What were those promises ? Why, that
the Bill was to deal with the grievances
of the Highlanders. As a matter of fact
we have seen, clause by clause, provisions
calculated to remedy these grievances
practically withdrawn, and I say de-
liberately that the Bill as it will pass
through Committee will not be worth the
time we have spent upon it. It will not
settle this question. It may be con-
sidered a sop to the Highlanders; but I
do not think it will prevent disturb-
ances. Parliament will have to con-


ICOMMONSIs


(No. 2) Bill. 68






69 Crofters (Scotland)


sider this question again almost imme-
diately. It is a great pity that the
House should spend seven nights of
valuable time upon a Bill which is really
of so little practical value. That is the
conclusion at which I have arrived. The
historical argument I consider a pleasant
fiction on the part of the Government.
No doubt there is a certain amount of
historical tradition on the subject; but
the same historical tradition applies
with equal force to every district of
Scotland. Why, then, does the right
hon. and learned Gentleman not apply
the Bill to the whole of Scotland?
I regard this Bill as one of an alto-
gether exceptional character, and in
that respect I quite agree with hon.
Members opposite. I do not like the
Bill on economic grounds; but to pre-
vent society in the Highlands falling to
pieces it is necessary that Parliament
should step in. The only justification
for interfering in the manner proposed
is to put the Land Question on a sound
footing. Under the scheme which the
Lord Advocate has adopted the land-
lords will be free to rack-rent all the
new tenants. ["Oh!"] There is no
reason why we should not expect that
the landlords will rack-rent in the future,
as they have done in the past. They
will do so, and Parliament will have to
interfere again. All this difficulty has
arisen from the mistaken policy of the
Government in refusing to adopt the
principle of free sale. If they had
adopted this principle the matter would
have gone on very much according to
economic law. They have, instead,
adopted the principle of compensation,
a system which has already broken down
under the Act which the right hon. and
learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate
passed through the House some years ago.
After the experience of that Act it is
foolish to proceed with this Bill upon
the basis of compensation. Sir, I think
it would have been well for the Govern-
ment to accept the principle of free sale
once for all, and thus get themselves out
of the difficulty in which they now find
themselves with regard to future ten-
ancies. If they had done so, the provi-
sions of the Bill would have been of such
a character that they would have been
self-acting. But as the Bill stands, so
far as we have gone, I say deliberately
it is really not worth the time the
House of Commons has spent upon it;


and the sooner it is thrown aside the
better. It will do nothing appreciable
to remedy the grievances which are com-
plained of in the Highlands.
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll): I
agree with what has just been said by
the hon. Gentleman the Member for
Forfarshire (Mr. J. W. Barclay). What
I am afraid of is that this Bill will dis-
turb all past relations, and will not settle
future relations. That is the danger.
I am anxious, whatever hon. Gentlemen
may think, that this Bill, or any other
Bill dealing with the crofters, should
be a complete settlement of the question.
I have had occasion many times to say
something in disparagement of this
Bill. I will read to the Lord Advocate
a Resolution passed at a meeting in the
Highlands-a copy of which has been
forwarded to me; it is an example of
scores of Resolutions I have received,
dealing with this Bill in much stronger
language than I have ever used. The
Resolution is as follows:-" That this
Convention of Lewis delegates-- "
THE CHAIRMAN: I must call the
hon. Member's attention to the fact that
there is a specific Amendment before the
Committee.
MR. MACFARLANE: If you rule,
Sir, that it is not competent for me to
discuss the general scope of the Bill
upon a specific Amendment, I must
adhere strictly to the Amendment. I
understood, however, the Lord Advocate
to depart rather from that Rule on this
very question; he went into other sub-
jects besides that dealt with by this
Amendment. However, I agree with
my hon. Friend the Member for North
Aberdeen (Mr. Hunter) that this Amend-
ment is essential; and if, Sir, you will
not permit me to express the opinion of
the people to whom the Bill is to apply
I must bow to your ruling.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): I should like to say a word
or two upon this particular Amendment.
Although I may agree with very much
of what has been said by hon. Gentle-
men, we must admit they have not al-
together confined themselves to the pro-
position now before the Committee. The
object of this particular Amendment is
to put future tenants on the same foot-
ing as existing tenants. If this were
done landlords will never permit any
more crofters to settle on their land. It
is the fact that in the Irish Act future
D 2 -[Sixth Night.]


JArRIL 19, 1886


(Xo.2) Bll. 70







71 Crofters (Scotland)


tenants were not put on the same footing
as present tenants; they were not to
have that complete fixity of tenure and
other privileges which were given to
existing tenants. On the other hand,
I think the Government made a very
great mistake in depriving future ten-
ants of all compensation for improve-
ments. I hope something will yet be
done to remedy this defeat.
MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD (Edin-
burgh and St. Andrew's Universities):
I do not suppose my right hon. and
learned Friend the Lord Advocate would
have the slightest objection to extend
the Bill so as to cover compensation for
any improvements future tenants may
make, if such a matter came within the
scope of the Bill, and if it were at all
necessary. But I want to call attention
to what seems to be entirely overlooked
here-namely, that the Bill is based
upon what are believed to be rights
belonging to a certain people, which
rights have been somehow or other taken
away. If the Bill is not based on such
an idea as that there is no ground for
it at all. If that be so, what possible
claim can future tenants have who have
no historical rights, real or imagi-
nary, to be imported into the Bill, and
placed exactly on the same footing as
existing tenants ? To import such people
into the Bill would be practically to
alter the whole scope and intention of
the measure, as stated in the speech
which the right hon. Gentleman the late
Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan)
made in introducing the measure, and
as maintained consistently, and I must
say with great force, by the Lord Ad-
vocate throughout these discussions.
But we are surfeited with the protesta-
tions of hon. Gentlemen below the Gang-
way that the Bill is such that it is not
worth going on with it. We are weary
of such protestations. If hon. Gentle-
man really believe the crofters in the
Highlands do not wish this Bill to pass
let them have it thrown out.
DR. CLARK (Caithness): We will
try to throw it out.
MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.): The
historical theory conjured up by the
right hon. Gentleman the Member for
the Border Burghs (Mr. Trevelyan) is
one to which I attach no importance at
all; I think the Legislature should
legislate to meet the wants and necessi-
ties of the present time. Reference has
Sir George Campbell


been made to Ireland, and to the fact that
there is no provision for future tenants
in the Irish Act. But provision does
not require to be made for future tenants
in that Act, because in Ireland there is
free sale. I contend that the right hon.
Gentleman did not give a shadow or
shred of reason to justify the iniquitous
distinction made between existing and
future crofters. The only reason I can
assign for it is that in the case of the
existing crofters there is a reasonable
presumption that they have either taken
part in disorder themselves or encou-
raged others to do so, whereas future
tenants have not done so. A more mis-
chievous principle was never inserted in
a Bill.
Question put.
The Committee divided :-Ayes 89;
Noes 70 : Majority 19. (Div. List,
No. 80.)
DR. CLARK (Caithness): Mr. Court-
ney, I accept the challenge of the right
hon. and learned Gentleman the late
Lord Advocate (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald),
and move that you do now report Pro-
gress. The Bill is a delusion and a
sham, and we will not be parties to
anything which will perpetuate the
present unsatisfactory state of things in
the Highlands. We move to report Pro-
gress because the Bill will not prove a
solution of the question, and because
we are simply wasting the time of the
House by discussing it. We are told
that this measure is based upon the
theory of history; but I believe it is
opposed to such a theory, and I will
very briefly explain how.
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member
will be distinctly out of Order in entering
into that question on the Motion to re-
port Progress. He must confine him-
self to the reasons for reporting Pro-
gress.
DR. CLARK: I was going to give
my reasons for wishing to report Pro-
gress. I wish to prevent the time of
the House being wasted, and I was
anxious to show that by the remedies
you propose you will increase, instead
of diminish, the disease. If it is not
proper for me to go into that question
I must content myself by moving to
report Progress, on the ground that it
is idle to debate further the measure in
its present form.


ICOMM~ONSI


(No. 2) Bill. 72






73 Crofters ( Scotland)


Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Chairman do report Progress,
and ask leave to sit again."-(Dr.
Clark.)
Mn. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I quite agree with my hen. Friend the
Member for Caithness (Dr. Clark) that
it is really a waste of time to proceed
further with this Bill. So far as I can
make out, of the 40,000 holdings in the
district contemplated by the Bill, not
more than 2,000 or 3,000 at the most
would be dealt with by it. Now, 2,000
or 3,000 crofters are such a very small
proportion of the people who have been
causing disturbances in the Highlands,
that it is impossible to hope that the
passing of this Bill will remedy the
grievances or pacify the country. At
the same time you have under the Bill
very expensive machinery. We have
some idea of what the working of the
Irish Land Act has cost. We are going
to have in Scotland, for the sake of
2,000 or 3,000 people, very expensive
machinery; we are going to be landed
in a very considerable annual expendi-
ture, an expenditure which I believe
will be very nearly as much as the whole
of the rents of the crofts dealt with. I
really think it would be much cheaper
for Parliament to make a present of
the rents to the landlords than to go on
with this Bill. Clause after clause we
have endeavoured to have the Bill ex-
tended, and to make it of some use. We
are beginning to recognize more and
more fully how narrow the limits of the
Bill are; and I have certainly come to
the conclusion that the Bill is not worth
the time the House of Commons has
spent upon it. I said the same thing
in respect of the Agricultural Holdings
Act for Scotland, and I repeat it in re-
spect of this Bill. This Bill is not at
all adequate to the occasion.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): I think my hen. Friends
are entirely wrong in the course they
have now taken. I have said already,
and I say now, I do not think the Bill
will be very effective; but, at the same
time, I am bound to recognize the fact
that it does contain some most beneficial
principles. The Bill is a very large step
in the right direction, and I must ex-
press my astonishment that this attempt
to defeat it should have come from the
Representative of Caithness, one of the


two counties in which I believe the Bill
will be of some effect. The time we
have spent on the Bill has not been alto-
gether wasted; and, therefore, I hope
the proposal of my hon. Friend (Dr.
Clark) will not be accepted.
Mn. BRADLAUGH (Northampton):
I venture to appeal to the hon. Gentle-
man (Dr. Clark) to withdraw his Motion
to report Progress. It is very little
use having Parliamentary discussions
at all if, because we cannot succeed in
realizing all we want, we destroy even
the very little good that a measure may
effect. I have voted with the Crofter
Members against the Government in
every division; but I shall support the
Government on this question if it is
unfortunately pressed to a division; and
I am certain that will be the course
adopted by every English Radical Mem-
ber who sits near me.
Mn. MASON (Lanark, Mid): I trust
that the hon. Gentleman the Member
for Caithness (Dr. Clark) will withdraw
his Motion. I am not at all satisfied
with the Bill; but I would recommend
the Crofter Members, whom I have sup-
ported all through these discussions, to
accept the Bill as it stands, seeing that
there is no hope of fighting the Govern-
ment with their allies on the other side
of the House. If the hon. Gentleman
would withdraw his Motion and allow
the Government to take the Bill as it is,
I am quite convinced that before two
years are over it will be found necessary
to amend it, and that, in fact, it will be
amended in a liberal manner, and a
manner suitable to the needs of the
people of the Highlands. I 'hope my
hon. Friend will not persevere with his
Motion, and that we shall cease to take
any further divisions against the details
of the Bill.
THE MARQVE s or STAFFORD
(Sutherland): I hope the hon. Member
will withdraw this Motion. Whatever
may be the shortcomings of the Bill, I
may remind him that the future pros-
perity of the fishing industry depends
very largely upon its passage.
Mn. MACFARLANE (Argyll): I
have refrained from taking upon myself
the responsibility of throttling the Bill.
I am willing that any Bill which will
benefit people, however few, shall be
passed if it can be passed. I have
had many communications from all parts
of Scotland in regard to this Bill, but
[ Sixth Night.1


JAIRIL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill. 74








not one in its favour. The Resolution ought to be allowed to get through the
which you, Mr. Chairman, would not remaining Amendments on the Paper,
allow me, a few minutes ago, to read- and then see whether the Bill still de-
I believe I am now entitled to read it if serves all the censure which has been
I wished-was to the effect that a meet- heaped upon it.
ing of Lewis delegates expresses its con- Mn. BEITH (Glasgow, Central): I
tempt for the Government Bill. I have hope my hon. Friend will withdraw the
not gone so far as that. Whatever I Motion to report Progress.
may have felt, I have not expressed my DR. R. MACDONALD (Ross and Cro-
contempt for the Bill. As I have said, marty): I, too, hope my hon. Friend
I declined to take the responsibility of will withdraw his Motion. I do not sup-
moving at any of the stages the rejec- pose anybody in the House can think
tion of the Bill, although the communi- less of the Bill than I do. I can freely
cations I have received against the Bill say, with my hon. Friend the Member
have been innumerable, whilst not one for Argyllshire (Mr. Macfarlane), that
has been in its favour. One reason I I have not received a singlecommunica-
had for delaying any action against the tion from Scotland in praise of this Bill.
Bill was that I had a faint hope that I have, however, received hundreds of
some slight amendment might be intro- Resolutions informing me that I shall
duced into the measure. But the Bill is never be elected for Ross-shire again,
like the law of the Medes and Persians because I do not go in for rejecting the
-it is unalterable. My hon. Friend Bill. That is the case with all of us.
the Member for Mid Lanarkshire (Mr. All the Crofter Members are endanger-
Mason) has spoken of the alliance be- ing their seats by going in for this Bill.
tween the Lord Advocate and the Front Notwithstanding this fact, I hope my
Opposition Bench. There is only one hon. Friend will withdraw his Motion,
mistake in that statement. My hon. and, as the hon. Member for Argyllshire
Friend should not have called it the (Mr. Macfarlane) has said, let the Go-
Front Opposition Bench, but the Front vernment take the whole responsibility
Co-operation Bench, because every of the measure. I am perfectly certain
Amendment calculated to extend the that, within a twelvemonth, the Govern-
scope of the Bill has been mainly de- ment will have to spend more on an ex-
feated by the votes of hon. Gentlemen petition to the Highlands than would be
opposite, and everyAmendment intended required to put half the crofters on their
to restrict the operation of the Bill has legs.
come from hon. Gentlemen opposite. DR. CLARK (Caithness) : I shall not
There are, however, several reasons why withdraw my Motion ; but allow it to be
the hon. Member for Caithness (Dr. negatived, as a great many Amendments
Clark) should not press this Motion. have been treated. I made the Motion
One is that he cannot carry it-he will because the late Lord Advocate (Mr. J.
be defeated. I would advise him to H. A. Macdonald) challenged us to take
withdraw the Motion, let the Bill go that course. We will divide the Con-
through Committee, and let the responsi- mittee upon two important Amendments
ability for this miserable, diluted, and which still stand upon the Paper, and
rubbishy measure rest with the Govern- then, either on the Report stage or the
ment. third reading, wash our hands of the
MR. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester, measure by doing all we can to throw it
E.) : Whether the line pursued in the out. With regard to the observations
Bill is proper or not, we are certainly of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir
not pursuing the proper course at the George Campbell), I should like to say
present moment. It may be right to I do not believe that 5 per cent of my
amend the Bill, or to throw it out; but constituents will be affected by the Bill.
it cannot by any possibility be right to As Oaithness contains most of the men
waste time in discussing futile Motions who were reported upon by the Royal
for Adjournment. If hon. Gentlemen Commission, and as very few of them
below the Gangway think that it is a will reap any benefit through this Bill,
Bill which ought to be thrown out, I I am anxious to do all I can to prevent
would recommend them to move an the time of the House of Commons being
Amendment on Report and throw it out wasted in passing the measure. There
if they can. But, in the meanwhile, we are two important points yet to be de-
Mlr. ,Macfarlane


- 1coMM~oNs1


(No. 2) -Bill. 76s


1 5 Crofters (Seotland)






77 Crofters (Scotland)


cided; but, of course, we shall be de-
feated by the co-operation of the Whigs
and Tories. We will wait and take a
decisive action, as the right hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. A. J. Balfour) has suggested,
upon the third reading.
MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD (Edin-
burgh and St. Andrew's Universities) : I
may, perhaps, be allowed to- put myself
right with the Committee. If I had
imagined that my suggestion would have
been an incentive to report Progress I
certainly would not have made it. What
I said was that it was wearisome to hear
hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway say-
ing the Bill was worthless. If they
really thought so, they could, at the
proper time, vote against its passage.
I had no Motion to report Progress in
my mind; and I do not think it occurred
to the hon. Gentleman (Dr. Clark) to
make such a Motion until he was passing
through the Lobby.
Question put, and negative.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): I beg to move the second
Amendment which stands in my name-
namely, to add to the clause the follow-
ing sub-section:-
But Part IV. of this Act shall apply to all
crofters and cottars in the counties of Argyll,
Inverness, Ross, Sutherland, Caithness, Orkney
and Shetland, Nairn, Elgin, Banff, Aberdeen,
and Kincardine."
The Lord Advocate must feel he has
created a very unfavourable impression
by the stubborn way in which he has
resisted all Amendments. I wish to
offer what I think is a reasonable com-
promise in this matter. The object of
my proposal is that one of the operative
parts of this Bill shall be extended to
the Highland counties-that Part IV. of
the Bill-that is the part which refers to
compensation for improvements-shall
be extended to the whole of the High-
land counties. Compensation for im-
provements is admitted to be just
according to the strictest principles of
political economy; and I must remind
the Committee that if you reject this
Amendment there will only be one
corner of Scotland the North-East
corner-in which there will be any
compensation for improvements. We
know that as long ago as 1870 compen-
sation for improvements was given in
Ireland. We also know that in Eng-
land we have, through the Agricultural


Holdings Act, compensation for im-
provements, and that in certain counties
there is a tenant right, which meets the
necessities of the case. In the South
of Scotland, I admit, the case is dif-
ferent. Almost all the holdings there
depend upon contract; and we have an
Agricultural Holdings Act. In the
Western Highlands we propose, by this
Bill, to protect the tenants in the right
to compensation for improvements; but
we exclude, as the Bill now stands, that
right to compensation from certain of
the Highland counties-namely, the
Highland counties which are mentioned
in my Amendment. I propose to extend
the right of compensation not only to
existing crofters in the counties I
specify, but to all future tenants. I do
sincerely hope it may be possible for the
Lord Advocate to accept this moderate
compromise.
Amendment proposed,
At the end of the Clause, to add the follow-
ing sub-section :-" But Part IV. of this Act
shall apply to all crofters and cottars in the
counties of Argyll, Inverness, Ross, Suther-
land, Caithness, Orkney and Shetland, Nairn,
Elgin, Banff, Aberdeen, and Kincardine."-
(Sir George Campbell.)
Question proposed, "That those words
be there added."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFoUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): I do not
know how far it is competent for my
hon. Friend to move this Amendment
after it has been declared, by decisions
and votes of the House, that the Bill is
not to apply to these additional counties.
I may say, however, upon the merits of
the proposal, I feel very much with
my hon. Friend that the Compensation
Clauses, which are a good deal simpler
than those in the Act of 1883, might
very well be extended not only to these
counties, but to Scotland generally; but
I am afraid that is a matter rather be-
yond the scope of this Bill. The Com-
mittee now knows the scope of the Bill;
and I put it to my hon. Friend whether
it would not be better to look forward to
the hope of being able to amend the
defects in the Agricultural Holdings Act
of 1883 by making a more simple and
liberal provision for compensation appli-
cable to Scotland generally ?
DR. R. FARQUHARSON (Aberdeen-
shire, W.): I support this Amendment
very cordially, because I should like to
get the benefit of some little portion of
[Sixth Night.l


JAPRiT, 19, 18861


(No. 2) -Bill. 788







79 Crofters (Scotland)


this Bill for my constituents in the
North of Scotland. It is quite evident
that the cottars will be placed, as it
were, between two stools. I think it is
a great pity the Government did not
give relief at once in the shape of free
sale. They will be put off with the
usual anaesthetic-they will be told they
must bear the ills they have until the
leaven, in the shape of a Local Govern-
ment Bill comes, in which all evils have
to be remedied.
DR. CAMERON (Glasgow, College):
I do not think there is any force in the
objection the Lord Advocate has raised
that this Amendment has practically
been negatived already; it was quite a
different Amendment that was nega-
tived. That Amendment was to give all
the benefits of the Bill to the whole of
the Highland counties; but this Amend-
ment is simply to extend the Compensa-
tion Clauses to the Highland counties
generally. If the Lord Advocate really
sympathizes with the Amendment, the
way to give practical effect to his sym-
pathy is to accept it. It is idle to talk
about waiting until we can amend the
Agricultural Holdings Act. We have
got a lot of other Business before us.
If what my hon. Friend proposes is
worth doing, let us do it at once.
MR. CHAPLIN (Lincolnshire, Slea-
ford): While I sympathize with the
principle of tenants, from whatever part
of the country they may come, receiving
compensation for unexhausted improve-
ments, I see the greatest possible diffi-
culty in accepting this Amendment and
adding it to the Bill. If you accept this
suggestion, you must import into the
Bill a definition of crofter throughout
the whole of Scotland; and if you once
proceed to define what is a crofter in
every county of Scotland, I cannot con-
ceive how, with anything like consis-
tency or reason, it would be possible to
resist the application of the Bill to the
whole of the country. That would, no
doubt, be an inclusion which would give
great satisfaction to many hon. Members
who have supported this Amendment;
but it would be contrary to the whole
course of our proceedings in regard to
this measure. I do not think the Com-
mittee, generally speaking, at all agree
with the hon. Member for Aberdeen
(Dr. Farquharson), when he said we are
all of opinion that free sale ought to have
been imported into the Bill as a much
Dr. R. Farquharson


more convenient way of deciding com-
pensation for improvements. That is an
opinion held by a small portion of the Com-
mittee; and it is certainly no argument
whatever in support of this Amendment.
For the reasons which I have given I
sincerely hope the Lord Advocate will
adhere to the course the Government
have announced, because if we are to
make this extension I do not see where
we are to stop.
Mn. ESSLEMONT (Aberdeen, E.):
The Preamble of the Bill is that-
"Whereas it is expedient to amend the law
relating to the tenure of land by crofters in the
Highlands and Islands of Scotland."
If the counties named in the Amend-
ment are counties in which crofters hold
land, why should they be excluded from
the benefits of the Bill? Can there be
any objection in equity to extending the
operation of the Bill to the counties pro-
posed ? I hope the Lord Advocate will
make some little concession on this one
point at least.
D. CLARK (Caithness) : There is
this difference between the tenants in
these counties and those in the Southern
counties-that while in the latter the
landlords make the improvements, and
the tenant pays for them in his rent, in
the former the improvements represent
the capital and labour of the tenants, for
which they are entitled to compensation
when they are turned out. All we ask
is that, when these people are turned
out, they shall receive some compensa-
tion for the capital they have invested and
the labour they have given in the im-
provement of the land. I cordially sup-
port the Amendment of my hon. Friend
(Sir George Campbell). You are not
asked that the people of these counties
shall have fair rents fixed; you are not
asked that they shall have their holdings
enlarged-you are simply asked that
when the people are turned out they
shall be compensated for improvements.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): I do hope that since the
Lord Advocate has expressed himself
favourable to the principle of this
Amendment he will consider it by Re-
port. When he looks into the facts of
the case he will see he may well give
effect to the Amendment without any
danger of a wide extent. It is admitted
that this Amendment is entirely dif-
ferent to that which has been negatived,
inasmuch, as it only proposes to extend


(-ATo. 2) Bill. 86


{COMMONS}






81 Crofters (Scotland)


the Compensation Clauses to the High-
land counties generally. I fear it would
be very difficult to secure an extension
of the Agricultural Holdings Act of
1883, as the Lord Advocate suggested.
It is perfectly true, as the hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Caithness (Dr.
Clark) has said, that the conditions in
the Northern counties are totally dif-
ferent to those in the Southern coun-
ties. The farmers do not build their
own houses. In the North of Scotland
there is a peculiar condition of things.
It has been said that the Royal Com-
mission did not visit Aberdeenshire.
Well, I amnot an Aberdeenshire man, but
I constituted myself a volunteer Com-
missioner, and made inquiries in that
district, and I was surprised to find the
enormous extent to which the farmers
have built houses without any security
whatever as to compensation for their
outlay. This is the case with regard to
Aberdeenshire estates, and it prevails to
an enormous extent; therefore, I say it
is a peculiar state of things, and one
which should be adequately met by a
provision in Part IV. of this Bill. It
is a state of things we are not likely to
find a remedy for in the Agricultural
Holdings Act, which necessarily applies
to much larger areas; consequently I
trust the right hon. and learned Gen-
tleman will assent to this proposition.
It is not to extend the Agricultural
Holdings Act unreasonably to parts of
the country where contracts are the rule,
but to apply it to parts where contracts
are not the rule.
MR. CONYBEARE (Cornwall, Cam-
borne): As the only English Radical in
the House at this moment, I should like
to express what is the feeling of Eng-
lish Radicals on this point. I earnestly
support the appeal the hon. Member
has just made to the Lord Advocate. It
seems to me that the principle of grant-
ing this has been sanctioned in one case,
and I, therefore, cannot see why it should
not be sanctioned in another. As to the
argument that the acceptance of the
Amendments would so extend the scope
of the Bill that no one would know
where it would stop, I should like to
know what Amendments have been ac-
cepted in favour of the crofters? One
Amendment, providing that all the
Commissioners shall understand Gaelic,
has been adopted; but that, I under-
stand, is the only one that has been


adopted in the course of these discus-
sions. I do not think I ever recollect a
measure in which the Government have
been so obstinate in the way of refusing
Amendments as on this Bill, and I hope
they will change that policy on the pre-
sent occasion.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes 76;
Noes 103: Majority 27.-(Div. List,
No. 81.)
Mn. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.): I am
sorry the Lord Advocate felt compelled
to reject the last Amendment, though I
agree that it would have been almost
impossible to apply the words of that
Amendment to this Act. The Lord Ad-
vocate made some observations as to the
Irish Land Act of 1881, in which I
think he was mistaken-no doubt ex-
cusably-owing to the extreme com-
plexity of the matter. I think he will
find this proposal drafted on almost
similar lines. Under the Act of 1881
the tenants could apply to have a re-
valuation of rent every 15 years, and
they get compensation for improve-
ments. The only additional provision I
can see is this-that of increasing hold-
ings. But to come to the point of my
Amendment. In the Act of 1881 cer-
tain provisions were put as to future
tenants; and I do not see why they
should not, on the ground of equal jus-
tice, be introduced into this Act also.
The provisions as to future tenants were
divided into three. A future tenant
went into a holding at a certain rent,
and, of course, he had to pay that rent;
but if, afterwards, the landlord chose to
attempt to raise the rent on him, three
courses were open to him. He could
either submit to that rent, and then he
would have all the rights as to fixity of
tenure that a present tenant had under
the Act; but that course was seldom
adopted. The second course was for
him to sell his tenancy, subject to the
increased rent, and then demand from
the landlord compensation for the dimi-
nution in value caused by the increase
of rent; a course which would be clearly
inapplicable to this Bill, since we have
not adopted the principle of free sale.
The third course, and that to which I
wish especially to call the right hon.
and learned Gentleman's attention, was
this-that if the landlord demanded an
increase of rent the tenant was entitled to
L Sixth Night.]


JAPRIL 19, 18861


(Yo. 2) Bill. 82






83 Crofters (Scotland)


say-" I will not pay it;" to leave the
holding, and then recover from the land-
lord compensation for disturbance as it
is called under the 4th section of the
Act. The compensation varies accord-
ing to the amount paid. Under the 9th
section of the Irish Land Act, where the
amount of rent is 30-and the ten-
ancies within this Bill are all under
30 rent-in these cases, the tenants
going out rather than pay an increase
of rent, will be entitled to compensa-
tion for disturbance not exceeding seven
years' rent of their holdings. I do not
see that there ought to be great diffi-
culty in applying that principle to the
present Act.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order! If I un-
derstand the hon. Gentleman aright he
is leading up to a proposal to introduce
something into the Act for the benefit
of future tenants. [Mr. CHANCE: Yes.]
I am of opinion that in the proposal of
the hon. Gentleman the Member for
Aberdeenshire the Committee refused to
bring future tenants within the Act;
therefore it would be inconsistent with
the resolution already arrived at to dis-
cuss the proposal of the hon. Member.
MR. CHANCE: I appreciate your
ruling, Sir. I should not, of course,
propose to apply this to future tenants.
The distinction is that in the previous
Amendment it was proposed to give the
main benefits of the Act to future ten-
ants; but I should not dream of doing
that at all. I merely propose to give
them a certain sort of compensation for
disturbance. I do not know whether I
should be in Order in doing that; but I
would ask you for your ruling in the
matter.
THE CHAIRMAN: I think the hon.
Member is precluded by the previous
decision from applying the Act to future
tenants at all.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Clause stand part of the
Bill."
MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.): Before
this clause is agreed to, I ask the Lord
Advocate to consider before the Report
stage the advisability of introducing
this Amendment. It has been working
fairly satisfactorily in Ireland, although
to a small extent; but no objection can
be found to it. I hope the right hon.
and learned Gentleman will give us
some assurance that he will do this.
Mr. Chance


THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.) : I shall
be quite willing to look into the sub-
ject; but I cannot say positively any-
thing with regard to the admission of
the clause. I was not in the House
when the Irish Land Act was passing
through.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I hope the right hon. and learned Gen-
tleman will look into the clause of the
Irish Land Act.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR : I shall look
through the provisions which the hon.
Gentleman refers to; but I cannot be
expected to give a pledge without much
more careful consideration of the matter.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY: I think we
have a right to expect that it should be
so, unless it is a principle that the
greater the disturbance made the greater
the concession which the Government
will make to the demand. The Irish
tenants made more disturbance than
the crofters. I think the right hon.
and learned Gentleman should have no
difficulty in giving us an assurance that
he will consider the matter.
Ma. J. B. BALFOUR: I will con-
sider the matter, and look very carefully
into the Irish Act.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 17 (Procedure in fixing fair
rent).
On Motion of The Lord ADVOCATE, the
following Amendment made:-Page 8,
line 17, leave out from the remunera-
tion" to "determine," in line 20, in-
clusive.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 18 (Procedure in enlarging
holdings).
Amendment proposed,
In page 8, after line 32, insert "in assigning
land for the enlargement of crofters' holdings, it
shall be competent for the Commissioners, if
they think fit, to make such order or orders with
respect to the fencing of the said land as they
shall consider necessary or expedient.
It shall also be competent to the Commis-
sioners to decide summarily any questions re-
lating to the boundaries or marches between
crofts, or between crofts and adjoining lands.
"In the event of any dispute arising as to
whether a person is a crofter" within the
meaning of this Act, it shall be competent for
the Commissioners to determine such question
summarily."-(The Lord Advocate.)
Mn. CHAPLIN (Lincolnshire, Slea-
ford): I have a question to ask with


-{COMMONS}


(No. 2) Bill. 84






,85 Crofters (Scotland)


.regard to the powers of the Commis-
sioners with respect to fencing the land
assigned for the enlargement of crofters'
holdings. I presume that the first part
of the Amendment refers to grazing as
well as arable land. If I am correct it
appears to me that this is a very large
power to give to the Commissioners,
because the cost of fencing additional
grazing land would probably be much
greater than the cost of fencing arable
land. I have not the figures with me,
but I know that the cost of such fencing
is very heavy indeed.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
The clause is proposed as much in the
interest of the landlord as of the crofter,
and would only apply in cases where it
might be desirable that the land should
be inclosed. '
Ma. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire): I am informed that dis-
putes sometimes arise between crofters
and landlords with regard to the bounda-
ries of grazing land, which I think would
be obviated by introducing, in line 7, the
words and grazing."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): I agree
with the principle of the hon. Gentle-
man's proposal; but I would suggest the
words should be including grazing."
Amendment proposed to said proposed
Amendment after "crofts," in line 7, to
add "'including grazing."-(The Lord
Advocate.)
Amendment agreed to.
MR. FRASER-MACKINTOSH:
Then I suggest that we should add at
the end "and grazing."
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I think we should say including
grazing and arable land." I think
that decidedly the best alteration.
Amendment proposed to said proposed
Amendment, in line 7, after "including
grazing, to add and arable land."-
(Mr. J. WT. Barclay.)
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19 (Duration of the Act).
DR. CLARK (Caithness): I rise to
ask the Lord Advocate to agree to strike
out the word "five," in line 35, and in-
sert "nineteen." If you only allow the
Land Commissioners to make engage-


ments for five years, they will probably
be unable to make the necessary en-
largements, because there will be a
limited number of large farms let on 19
years' leases, and until they expire the
enlargements could take place. I can-
not see why the period of five years
should be fixed upon; but my proposal
is to take 19 years, which is the term of
the leases.
Amendment proposed, in page 8,
line 35, to leave out the word "five,"
and insert the word "nineteen."-(-Dr.
Clark.)
Question proposed, That the word
'five stand part of the Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFouR) (Clackmannan, &c.): I think
it would be very injurious to limit the
period during which the powers of the
Land Commission were to be exercised.
My idea is that the clause expresses
what is a fair period.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I think it quite unnecessary to make
this alteration, the result of which would
be that we should be burdened with the
expenses of the machinery for another
term of years.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 20 to 22 agreed to.
Clause 23 (Use of sheriff court
houses).
On Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE,
the following Amendments made:-
Page 9, line 10, after "use," insert
"free of charge;" page 9, line 15,
after "Court," add-
with right to exact the same fees as are
eligible by them for service at the sittings of
the Sheriff Court."
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 24 (Record of proceedings;
transmission of applications by sheriff
clerk; sheriff clerk's remuneration).
MR. MACFARLANE: (Argyll): The
object of the Amendment in my name is
to bring a record of the transactions of
the Land Commission within more easy
reach of the tenant. In my county a
tenant might have to travel 100 miles to
ascertain the order of the Court; and
therefore I propose that the record
should be kept in the local Court.
LSixth Night.]


f~iRIL 19, 188,61


(Mo. 2') Bill. 86







87 Crofters (Scdland)


Amendment proposed, in page 9, line
19, after the word clerk," to insert the
words, "or his depute for the said dis-
trict."-(Mr. iacfarlane.)
Question proposed, That those words
be there inserted."
MR. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire): I beg to support the
Amendment of my hon. Friend. It
would be very inconvenient in the
larger counties if the words suggested
by him were not inserted.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (MR. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): I en-
tirely agree that it is desirable that this
book should be kept in a local office. I
do not, however, think it necessary to
make the second similar Amendment
which the hon. Member proposes to the
subsequent part of the clause.
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll): If
the right hon. and learned Gentleman
will agree to make these records as ac-
cessible as possible I do not wish to
press the Amendment.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: The subject
shall receive consideration.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause agreed to.
Clagse 25 (Execution of orders made
by Commission) agreed to.
Clause 26 (Forms of Procedure).
On Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE,
the following Amendment made:-In
page 9, line 38, at end, add-
It shall be in the power of the Land Com-
mission to make rules with reference to pro-
ceedings before the Commission, and also,
with the approval of the Treasury, to fix a
scale of costs and fees to be charged in carrying
the Act into execution, and the taxation of such
costs and fees, and the persons by whom, and
the manner in which, such costs and fees are to
be paid."
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 27 (Sole arbiter may be chosen)
agreed to.
Clause 28 (Saving of the Agricul-
tural Holdings Act, 1883).
Amendment proposed, in page 10, to
leave out lines 9 and 10.--(2lr. X'Cul-
lokh.)
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): The
hon. Gentleman will see that we make a
more liberal provision by giving the


landlord and tenant the option of settle-
ment under either Act.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): In the case of manures the
crofter is entitled to compensation under
the Agricultural Holdings Act. Is he
entitled under this Act also?
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: The hon.
Member will see that the cases covered
by the clause; the words are-
Such valuation shall be made, unless the
landlord and the crofter otherwise agree, by the
Land Commission, according to the procedure
prescribed by this Act, but otherwise subject to
the provisions of the said Act."
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mn. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
Before the clause is put, I wish to
understand the exact application of the
last words of the clause-
But otherwise subject to the provisions of
the said Act."
Mn. J. B. BALFOUR: What we pro-
vide for specially in this Act are perma-
nent improvements; but we do not desire
to cut off the claim of the crofter, if he
has been a manuring tenant, which he
would have under the Agricultural
Holdings Act.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY: Would it
not be better to have an additional
Schedule to the Bill ? In the first part
of the Act the crofter is to be compen-
sated for all improvements. I do not
see how the two Acts can work together,
and therefore I propose to leave out the
words-
But otherwise subject to the provisions of
the said Act,"
because I do not see any necessity for
them. I advocate this Amendment be-
cause the wording of the Agricultural
Holdings Act is too complicated to be
understood by the bulk of the people
concerned.
Amendment proposed,
In page 10, to leave out the words, "but
otherwise subject to the provisions of the said
Act."--(Mr. J. W. Barclay.)
Question proposed, "That the words
proposed to to be left out stand part of
the Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUn) (Clackmannan, &c.): The
question is how the compensation is to
be claimed ? I do not think the Amend-
ment proposed is desirable; however, I
will look into the matter before Report.


(No. 2) BX~. 88


{COMMONS}







89 Crofters (Scotland)


Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 29 (Definitions).
DR. CLARK (Caithness): The Amend-
ment I am about to move is one of great
importance, and I hope the Lord Advo-
cate will take it into his consideration
now, because upon its adoption or rejec-
tion the fate of the great bulk of the
crofters depends, and especially of the
best class of crofters. The question
has already been raised on the Amend-
ment of the noble Marquess the Member
for Sutherlandshire (the Marquess of
Stafford); but it only then affected the
question of rent, whereas my Amend-
ment affects the crofter as far as getting
compensation for improvements and ex-
tension of his holding is concerned. I
think we ought to be as accurate as pos-
sible in defining the term "crofter."
During the last 10 or 12 years it has
been the custom, and especially since
the passing of the Irish Land Act, to
force leases upon crofters. Now, the
crofters have always fought against
leases, because they are under the im-
pression that by accepting a lease they
are giving up their right to compen-
sation. A great many tenants have
lately been offered the alternative of
accepting these leases or going, and they
have accepted the leases. By inserting
these words you will take in a great
number of crofters who have been
obliged to accept leases in this way,
and who will be very much benefited. I
trust, moreover, that the Lord Advocate
will show that he is conceding some-
thing to the crofters who have a heredi-
tary right. The hereditary argument
strongly applies here, and if you apply
it at all in the Bill you ought to apply it
here.
Amendment proposed, in page 10,
line 16, after the word "holding," to
insert the words by lease for a term of
years or."-(Dr. Clark.)
Question proposed, "That those words
be there inserted."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.) : I was
under the impression that the whole
question of applying this Act to lease-
holders had been very fully discussed,
and negatived. I must say that we are
now delaying the Committee on an
argument which was stated at the out-


set to be outside the scope of this Bill-
namely, that it should apply to lease-
holders. The Bill is intended to apply
to tenants under the customary tenure;
and if a person has taken himself out of
that category, that is a very different
position to the position of the tenant we
are dealing with; and it would not be
right that the Bill should step in and
alter the existing arrangement. Ithink
there may be some hard cases arise;
but I do not think the hon. Member was
happy in instancing improving leases,
because we all know that in those cases
the tenant gets the holding at a very
low figure, which he pays partly by rent
and partly by improvements.
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll): It
will be remembered that in the Irish
Land Act it was provided that if a
tenant could show that a lease had been
forced upon him it should be set aside.
That provision has been applied, and
applied successfully; and, therefore, I
would suggest that we should leave out
the words from year to year." Persons
Sof this class only accept leases of this
Kind with the greatest reluctance, and
Therefore they ought not to be excluded
from the benefit of this Act. What I
want to ask the right hon. and learned
Gentleman is this-that the Government
shall treat these people somewhat on the
same basis as the Irish peasants were
treated by the Irish Land Act; and if
they can show that leases have been
recently forced upon them they shall be
able to obtain the benefits of this Act-
such as they are.
THE CHAIRMAN: A previous
Amendment to Clause 6 on this point
was negatived, and the Committee have,
therefore, refused to go into the ques-
tion of leases. This Amendment, there-
fore, will be out of Order.
DR. CLARK (Caithness): But that
Amendment on Clause 6 did not apply to
other clauses. I would ask you, Sir,
can a division of this Committee upon a
question on Clause 6 affect a question on
Clause 8, and Clauses 11 and 12? We
have altered the Bill as far as Section 3
is concerned; but Sections 4 and 5 have
not been affected by that alteration. I
should like to see the same principle ap-
plied to this case.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): Section 6, on which we
took a division, only applies to the fixing
of rent, while this Amendment applies
[Sixth Vight.]


JAPRIL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill 90







91 Crofters (Scotland)


to the fixing of tenure; and I would
ask you, therefore, Sir, if that is not
different ?
THE CHAIRMAN: This Definition
Clause which we are now on applies
to the whole Bill; and therefore the
Amendment, if passed, would be incon-
sistent with the Amendment we nega-
tived on Clause 6. Under those circum-
stances, it is out of Order at this stage.
DR. CLARK: I beg to withdraw my
Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. MACDONALD CAMERON
(Wick, &c.): I do not think the right
hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord
Advocate can complain that I have
troubled him much with Amendments.
I will withdraw the first one which
stands in my name; but I think my
second one, in page 10, line 16, to leave
out all after "holding," to "holding,"
in line 17, inclusive, is a very important
one. I represent a very important group
of boroughs, the inhabitants of which
are greatly interested in this point, as
many of them are engaged part of the
year fishing, and I shall be glad if the
right hon. and learned Gentleman can
see his way to accept my Amendment.
Amendment proposed, in page 10,
line 16, to leave out all after the word
"holding," to "holding," in line 17,
inclusive.- (Mr.Macdonald Cameron.)
Question proposed, That the words
proposed to be left out stand part of the
Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.) : Of
course, the object of introducing these
words was to cut out that kind of person
who has some other business, and does
not reside on his holding. I do not
know whether the words as they now
stand might not be pressed against a
man who is away half the year fishing,
and I shall not press them if any satis-
factory words can be found.
MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON (Bute):
I cannot see that that difficulty stands
in the way of the acceptance of the
words of the Bill as they stand. It ap-
pears to me that the case of such people
as have been mentioned will be met by
the other sections of the Bill; but I un-
derstand that the words of this clause
are supposed to apply to a very dif-
ferent kind of persons-who are really
Sir George Campbell


burgesses having a small holding out-
side the towns in which they live. That
is that they have their holdings as a
luxury. I am bound to say that I think
the right hon. and learned Gentleman's
words are quite right; and I do not see
how the hon. Member can imagine that
his constituents will be damaged by
them, unless they are tradesmen first
of all and small farmers afterwards.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: Perhaps I
may suggest that the difficulty may be
so far solved by leaving out the word
"habitually."
Mn. MACFARLANE (Argyll): I was
just going to suggest to leave out the
word habitually," and insert the word
i' generally."
MR. J. B. BALFOUR : No; I think
it is better to leave out the word habi-
tually" altogether.
MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON: Yes;
leave out the word "habitually" alto-
gether.
MR. MACDONALD CAMERON:
There is a large class who will be en-
tirely excluded from the benefits of this
Bill if my Amendment is not accepted.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I put down an Amendment to insert
"or in the vicinity of."
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I should be
sorry to cut out anybody; but the words
are meant to meet the case which exists
in some parts of burgesses who have
farms outside.
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll): I am
quite sure that a very large class of per-
sons is by no means covered by these
words. I have a large number of letters
from people, including such persons as
the doctor and the minister, complaining
that this clause will exclude their hold-
ings from the operation of the Bill.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I am afraid
that this is neither a Clerical nor a
Medical Bill; and, therefore, I cannot
see why gentlemen of those Professions
should be included.
MR. MACFARLANE: I am not ad-
vocating the case of these gentlemen;
but I want to know whether the right
hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord
Advocate will modify the clause so as to
include the spirit and not the letter of
the Bill ?
MR. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire) : I would suggest to the
right hon. and learned Gentleman that
if, instead of the word "resides," he


{COMMON S}


(No. 2) Bill, 92







93 Crofters (Scotland)


inserted cultivates," his holding, he
would obtain his object.
DR. R. MACDONALD (Ross and Cro-
marty): I think that the best Amend-
ment we can accept is that of the hon.
Member for Forfarshire (Mr. J. W.
Barclay), which comes next.
Mn. MACDONALD CAMERON
(Wick): I am quite willing to accept the
Amendment of the hon. Member for In-
verness-shire (Mr. Fraser-Mackintosh),
which comes as an Amendment to mine.
A number of the people whom I have
in my eye are evicted crofters in the
old sense of the term, and I think that
they are entitled to get all the benefits of
any measure of this kind.
Mn. J. P. B. ROBERTSON (Bute):
We shall be much better without the
word generally." I think the word
"resides" absolutely will be much
better than any other. The hon. Mem-
ber wants to go further than is proposed
in any of the suggestions yet made, forhe
wants to include in the Bill people who
live on their feus. I beg to say that
we should be going far beyond the in-
struction given to this Committee by
the House if we were to go into the
grievances of people who live on their
small feus, but who are also small
farmers outside. I think the whole case
will be met if we merely strike out the
word "habitually."
Mn. MACFARLANE (Argyll): I
want to put a question to the Lord Ad-
vocate. Suppose a crofter has two hold-
ings and he lives on one of them, will
he lose the benefits of this Act in regard
to the other ?
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I am afraid
that he would only get the benefits of
the Act for the one on which he resided
last.
MR. MACFARLANE: Then he would
be deprived of the benefits of the Act in
regard to his second holding?
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: Well, that is
not the question.
MR. MACFARLANE: Suppose a man
has a holding half of which is situated
on one property and half on another.
Suppose he has a small patch of arable
land from one landlord and a house and
some pasture from another, will he be
excluded ?
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I entirely
agree that that is a case that ought to
be met; and I shall be willing to accept
an Amendment dealing with the matter.


MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
There are a great many crofters in the
Highlands who have houses inside some
of the little hamlets, and I say that they
are quite entitled to the benefits of this
Act.
MR. MACDONALD OAMERON
(Wick): I beg leave to withdraw my
Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): Now, I
beg to move to omit the word habitu-
ally."
Amendment agreed to.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I move, in page 10, line 17, after on,"
insert "or in the vicinity of." The ob-
ject of the Amendment is this. Suppose
a man has a holding consisting of two
parts-one in the hamlet and the other
outside. That is a case which ought to
be considered, and it will not involve a
great matter of disadvantage to the land-
owners.
Amendment proposed, in page 10,
line 17, after the word "on," to insert
"or in the vicinity of."--(Mr. J. W.
Barclay.)
Question proposed, "That those words
be there inserted."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): May I
point out to the Committee that these
words would take no cognizance of the
kind of land which was in question ? A
man worth 5,000 a-year might come
in as a crofter, under these words, and
take advantage of the benefits of this
Act.
MR. GREGORY (Sussex, East Grin-
stead): It appears to me that we have
got into a difficulty by omitting the word
" habitually." We do not want to in-
clude within the Act a man who has
other means of living; and therefore I
would suggest that we should include
the words who is dependent on his
holding."
MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.): The
vital objection to that is that most
crofters in the Highlands are fishermen,
and they would be excluded altogether
by such words.
DR. CLARK (Caithness): How would
the word "occupies" do ?
I Sixth Night.]


JAPRIL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill. 94







95 Crofters (Scotland)


MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I am afraid
that residence is the only qualification
that we can accept.
Ms. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.): How
would it do to say "lives in a crofting
parish?"
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I think we
must have the residential qualification ?
Ms. M'CULLOCH (Glasgow, St.
Rollox): I think that the question of
occupation should be quite sufficient. I
have known this residential qualifica-
tion used for the oppression of tenants,
and I can quote cases in which people
who have been unable to live on their
holdings have been deprived of benefits
to which they were entitled.
SIm GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): What we want to know is
whether such cases as have been men-
tioned ought not to be included in the
Bill; and if the right hon. and learned
Gentleman says they ought, then we are
willing to wait for him to introduce
words to deal with the matter.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I thought I
had made myself perfectly clear on this
point. If a person has a piece of land
quite separate from his house, and he is
a prosperous person apart from this
land, he is not the kind of person who
should come under the provisions of
this Bill; but if it is a genuine case it
ought to be dealt with.
Ms. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
But how does the right hon. Gentleman
intend to deal with it ?
Ms. J. B. BALFOUR: I propose to
deal with it by inserting words to show
that he should have land which is part
of the same possession.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY : I think that
we should have some definition from
the right hon. and learned Gentleman
now. He appears to be afraid that a
number of people are going to get the
benefits of this Act who are not entitled
to them; but I do not think the benefits
will be worth so much after all.
Ma. CHAPLIN (Lincolnshire, Slea-
ford): It really seems to me that hon.
Members opposite are pressing the right
hon. and learned Gentleman too much.
He has expressed his sympathy with
the point they have advanced, and he
has promised to deal with the question
on Report. I hope, therefore, we may
be allowed now to come to a decision.
If the hon. Member for Forfarshire (Mr.
J. W. Barclay) is not satisfied with the


undertaking of the right hon. and
learned Gentleman let him press his
Amendment, and let us take a division
upon it.
Question put.
The Committee divided:- Ayes 84;
Noes 133: Majority 49.- (Div. List,
No. 82.)
MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.): I beg
to move after the word "holding" in
the same line to insert these words-
Or who resides in a crofting parish and is
mainly dependent on agriculture or fishing for
his livelihood."
Question proposed, "That those words
be there inserted."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.) : That
would involve a very large and com-
plicated addition to the clause, and
therefore I cannot accept it. I think
the hon. Member would do better to
bring up the words on Report.
MR. BIGGAR (Cavan, W.): Many
of the people living in these crofting
parishes are fishermen in addition to
possessing a holding, and I think they
should be included in the Bill. I think
the Committee should give effect, there-
fore, to the Amendment of my hon.
Friend.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester,
E.) : I do not think that the contention
of the hon. Member is unreasonable;
but it is a difficult thing to introduce
into the Bill matter of such moment on
occasions like this and on the spur of
the moment. I cannot see, therefore,
that the right hon. and learned Gentle-
man the Lord Advocate is unreasonable
in asking that the question shall be left
over until Report.
MR. CHANCE: I think that this is
a matter which can be better dealt with
at this stage than on Report. It in-
volves a simple matter of fact, and ought
to be settled at once.
MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD (Edin-
burgh and St. Andrew's Universities):
The hon. Member who has brought in
this Amendment does not appear to be
aware of its effect. He is only including
one industry which a crofter may be
open to engage himself in during a por-
tion of his time; but I think there are
many others besides fishing which
ought not to be excluded from the
benefits of this Act. The hon.


{COMMONS}


(-Yo. 2) Bill. 96






97 Crofters (Scotland)


Member has contributed some ex-
ceedingly valuable suggestions during
the sittings of the Committee on this
Bill; but if he will allow me to say so, I
think he has gone a little beyond his
depth on this occasion. No doubt the
Amendment is intended to get rid of a
difficulty, but the acceptance of it would
bring about a much greater one. I hope
the hon. Member will not press the
matter.
MR. CHANCE: The Amendment
points out that a man must be mainly
dependent upon his croft or fishing, and
I am quite sure that hon. Members will
agree that unless he is so "mainly
dependent" he ought not to have the
benefits of this Act.
MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD: If they
are not mainly dependent on agricul-
ture they ought not to be included in
the Bill, and it is for that reason that
this Amendment should not be pressed.
I earnestly trust it will not be insisted
upon.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.) : I agree with the right hon.
and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr.
J. H. A. Macdonald) that the Amend-
ment would introduce fresh difficulties
into the Bill, and that it is better that it
should not be pressed.
MR. CHANCE: I shall be glad to
withdraw my Amendment, on the under-
standing that the right hon. and learned
Gentleman will introduce words on
Report to meet the case which has been
brought forward.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I will en-
deavour to introduce words on Report
which will meet the views of the Com-
mittee.
MR. J. E. O'DOHERTY(DonegalN.):
I should like the right hon. and learned
Gentleman to consider this point. Take
the case of a crofter who is fairly pros-
perous, and is anxious to enlarge his
holding, and succeeds in getting an addi-
tional piece of land from another land-
lord, but continues to reside on his old
croft. How will he be included in the
Bill? How can you deal with a case of
that sort, unless you insert some such
Amendment as this ?
MR. CHANCE: Surely a man should
not be excluded from the benefits of the
Act because, with a view of adding to
his income, he lives in a miserable little
crofting village, and does some black-
smith's work? That would really be
VOL. CCCV. [THIRD SERIES.]


discouraging industry amongst these
poor people.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I propose to
meet cases of that kind.
MR. CHANCE: Then, under those
circumstances, I withdraw my Amend-
ment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SIR JAMES FERGUSSON (Man-
chester, N.E.): I beg, Sir, to move the
Amendment which stands in the name
of my hon. Friend the Member for
Lanark (Mr. Baird), which is as
follows :-In page 10, line 18, to leave
out "thirty," and insert "fifteen." It
is not desirable to create a number of
small farms upon which, in a precarious
climate, people can scarcely exist. I
remember, for instance, parts of my own
county upon which the population barely
exists. This state of existence is un-
suited to modern times. Families either
consolidate their holdings, or give them
up and retire; but for Parliament de-
liberately to create a new system of
small farms in these days would be an
anachronism and retrograde movement,
not in accord with the ordinary progress
of the age.
Amendment proposed, in page 10,
line 18, to leave out the word thirty,"
and insert the word "fifteen."-(Sir
James Fergusson.)
Question proposed, "That the word
Thirty stand part of the Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): I cannot
accept this Amendment at all. The
Royal Commissioners, in their Report,
say-
For the purposes of this inquiry and Report,
we limit the class of crofters to tenants paying
not more than 30 annual rent; "
and, no doubt, the great majority
of the crofter holdings are under
30. We took the largest figure
named by the Commissioners; and I
would submit, though they say there
should not be additional land given, that
we may very well give the benefits of
the Act to all who come under the defini-
tion "tenants paying not more than 30
annual rent."
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SIn GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &o.): I beg to move, in page 10,
line 19, after "parish," to insert "or a
E [Sixth Night.]


JAFRIL 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill. 98







99 Crofters (Scotland)


tenant of a like holding whose lease has
expired." The object of the Amend-
ment is to put the Scotch crofter inexactly
the same position as the Irish crofter who
holds under the Act of 1881. I hold in
my hand the Irish Land Act of 1881,
and I find that, according to that, a
lessee cannot have a fair rent, but that
at the expiration of his lease he has the
privilege of an ordinary tenant, and the
benefits of the Act. I do hope that the
Lord Advocate will put the Scotch crofter
in the same position as the Irish crofter
at the expiration of a lease that has come
down for hundreds and thousands of
years. I hope that at the end of his
lease he will not be allowed to find him-
self in a worse position than an ordinary
tenant.
Amendment proposed, in page 10,
line 19, after the word "parish," to in-
sert the words "or a tenant of a like
holding whose lease has expired."-(Sir
George Campbell.)
Question proposed, "That those words
be there inserted."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFoun) (Clackmannan, &c.): I should
think that in cases where leases have
been granted for hundreds and
thousands of years these words would
be hardly necessary. A person whose
lease has expired is a tenant from year
to year.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: If the
Lord Advocate is quite clear that that is
the true interpretation of the law, I am
perfectly satisfied, and will withdraw the
Amendment.
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll): The
hon. Member has, I think, misunder-
stood the Lord Advocate. Does the
right hon. and learned Gentleman say
that the tenant who at the time of the
passing of this Act is under a lease will,
at the expiration of that lease, become
what the Irish Land Act calls a present
tenant ?
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: He be-
comes a tenant from year to year.
MR. MAOFARLANE: No; a present
tenant. If he means that I shall be
satisfied.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I do not
understand that the Amendment of my
hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy
(Sir George Campbell) is meant to
apply to the case of any person who at
any future time has a lease running
Sir George Campbell


out. I understand that when an inquiry
arises and the point comes in question,
and a tenant has no lease, it will be held
that he is holding from year to year.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire) :
What is to happen to the tenant whose
lease expires one year after the Act
comes into operation ?
ME. J. B. BALFOUR: Why, he is
then no longer a leaseholder, but a
yearly tenant. We must not talk about
different things. If, when the question
arises, the lease is still current, then it
is a compact, with all the incidence of a
compact, and with the right to bring it
to an end; but if that contract has ex-
pired, and the tenant has become an
ordinary tenant from year to year, he
will, of course, be treated as such.
Da. CLARK (Caithness): I have this
morning received several letters with
regard to this point. The people who
write to me are a number of tenants
whose leases are expiring, and one of
them is the Secretary to the Land Law
Reform Association of his parish. I
have a letter from this gentleman, say-
ing that his lease will expire next year,
and that unless he agrees to take a new
lease he will have to go. The Amend-
ment of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy
will put an end to that state of things.
[Mr. J. B. BAiLoun : Not at all.] We
must thoroughly understand this point.
The landlord will give a leaseholder
notice to quit at the expiration of his
lease, that leaseholder will leave, his im-
provements will be confiscated, and he
will be debarred from the privileges of
this Bill.
MN. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.): I
would point out to the Committee that,
under the 39th section we are discuss-
ing, the definition of a crofter is "a
tenant of a holding from year to year."
Then, if we turn to the 16th section,
which defines the scope of the Bill, we
find-
This Act shall apply to every crofter who
is the tenant of a holding at the passing of this
Act, and to his heirs, in the same manner as if
the tenancy were a lease."
Supposing a man is a tenant under a
lease, he clearly is not "now" a tenant
from year to year, according to the terms
of this Bill, and in that way this measure
differs in its application from the Irish
Land Act of 1881. It was provided in
the Irish Act that a tenant under a
lease should, at the expiration of his


{COMMONS}


(.Yo. 2) Bill. 100






101 Crofters (Scotland) {APRIL 19, 18861


lease, be deemed a present tenant. In
England and Ireland, it is clear that on
the expiration of a lease the tenant be-
comes the permissive occupant, and not
a tenant from year to year, although, of
course, if the landlord does anything in
the way of recognizing him as such, he
may become a tenant from year to year.
A landlord in Ireland may let such a
man remain on his holding for a time,
and then summarily eject him, if he can
show that he has done nothing to recog-
nize him as a tenant from year to year.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: With us,
unless notice were given the requisite
period before the new year has com-
menced, the tenant would have become
a tenant from year to year.
Mn. CHANCE: The Bill, under the
combined operation of the 16th and 39th
sections, only extends to tenants now
occupying their holdings as tenants from
year to year. A person who is now a
leaseholder will not come within the
operation of the Act, and no future pro-
ceeding will ever bring him under the
Act.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: It has been
twice decided by the Committee that
present leaseholders shall not come
within the Act.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: There
is some ambiguity about the Amend-
ment, and I would ask leave to with-
draw it, so that I may move it again in
this shape-
Or a tenant of a like holding, under an ex-
isting lease, on the expiration of his lease."
THE CHAIRMAN: I think that that
Amendment would be out of Order. We
have already decided against the inclu-
sion of leaseholders.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I sub-
mit that the Committee has only decided
as to the position of a leaseholder, on
the expiration of his lease, as regards
certain privileges.
THE CHAIRMAN: It would be im-
possible to insert a provision to this
effect.
Mn. J. E. O'DOHERTY (Donegal,
N.): Before the hon. Member with-
draws his Amendment, let me point out
the inconvenience which the Bill would
cause without it. There are tenants
holding leases, upon whom, before the
expiration of those leases, notice to quit
would be served. In all those cases, as
I understand it, by the law of Scotland,
the status of the tenant is exactly the


same as that of tenants in England, on
the expiration of their leases. He is
utterly unprotected against eviction.
How are you going to deal with the
class who have not acquired the status
of tenants from year to year, and who
are wholly at the mercy of the land-
lords ? I think the hon. Gentleman on
the other side of the House (Sir George
Campbell) should press this Amend-
ment.
MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD (Edin-
burgh and St. Andrew's Universities):
May I point out that the proposal is to
deal with a case that was not contem-
plated in this clause. The intention of
the Bill is to deal with the cases of
crofters who sit in their holdings with-
out any legal or ordinary contract. It
is not proposed to deal with such per-
sons as, by reason of education and other
circumstances, are able to look after their
own interests, and have entered into cer-
tain contracts with their landlords. No
doubt, if a lease expires and the person
who holds it is allowed to remain on in
occupation of the holding, he then be-
comes, by law, a leaseholder from year
to year. There can be no question
about that, and such a person having
no contract will get the benefit of this
Act. To say that the leaseholder who
holds by written contract, and is there-
fore presumed to be able to take care of
himself, should be placed in the posi-
tion of a crofter in ordinary circum-
stances, is going altogether beyond the
scope of this Bill. A leaseholder of
that kind is not intended to be dealt
with in this Bill at all.
THE CHAIRMAN: Does the hon.
Member withdraw his Amendment ?
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: Yes.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. KIMBER (Wandsworth): I
should like to take up the next Amend-
ment, to a certain extent. The clause
says-
"' Crofting parish' means a parish in which
there are at the commencement of this Act, or
have been within eighty years prior thereto,
holdings consisting of arable land held with a
right of pasturage in common with others, &c."
Instead of the word "or," Iwould move
that the word "and" be inserted. In
this definition of the words "crofting
parish," there is this defect-that pro-
vision is not made for dealing simply
with parishes that have crofters in them
E 2 [Sixth Night.]


(No. 2) Bill. 102







103 Crofters (Scotland)


at the present time. A careful reading
of the first lines of this sub-section will
show that it means that a crofting
parish implies a parish where there are
at the commencement of this Act, or
have been within 78 or 80 years, these
holdings consisting of arable land held
with a right of pasturage in common
with others. So that if 79 years ago
those conditions prevailed, though they
do not prevail now, and have not for
the last 60 or 70 years, still the parish
would be a crofting parish within the
meaning of this Act. ["No, no."] An
hoen. Member says "No, no;" but I
venture respectfully to differ from him,
and I submit to the Lord Advocate whe-
ther this clause does not mean that a
crofting parish is not necessarily one in
which there are crofters at the present
time, but a parish in which there were
crofters 70 years ago?
Amendment proposed, in page 10, line
21, to leave out the word "or," and in-
sert the word and."-((Mr. Kimber.)
Question proposed, "That the word
'or' stand part of the Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): This
word has been designedly introduced
here, and I will state to the Committee
why. A crofter, according to the provi-
sions of this Act, need not necessarily be
a person who has a share of a right of
pasturage with others. If you get a
parish in which there are present crofters,
although there are no holdings consist-
ing of arable land held with a right of
pasturage in common with others, yet
the crofter will come within the opera-
tion of this Act, and the parish will be a
crofting parish. It will, therefore, be
quite evident that these words are quite
necessary.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. J. A. CAMPBELL (Glasgow and
Aberdeen Universities): I beg to move,
in line 21, to leave out eighty," for the
purpose of inserting "forty." It seems
to me that 80 years is a very long time
over which to extend the researches as
to the customs of a parish. In most
cases proof of there having been com-
mon pasturage at so remote a date as 70
or 80 years ago will be of the vaguest
and most uncertain kind. If the clause
is allowed to stand as at present framed,
I very much fear that false hopes will
Mr. Kimber


be held out to people, and that many
disputes will be occasioned. Forty years
is a term well understood in Scotland;
it is, comparatively speaking, a short
term, and there would not be much
difficulty in ascertaining whether, during
that period, the conditions mentioned in
the section had existed.
Amendment proposed, in page 10,
line 21, to leave out the word eighty,"
and insert the word "forty."-(Mr. J.
A. Campbell.)
Question proposed, "That the word
'eighty' stand part of the Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.) : It would
be very inconvenient if this Amendment
were accepted. This is not a question
that has anything to do with prescrip-
tion, and anyone who knows anything
of the history of the Highland holdings
must be aware that if you limited this
period to 40 years you would not get
at a large number of the worst cases.
Eighty years is quite sufficient, we
think, to cover all cases.
Amendment negative.
MR. M'CULLOCH (Glasgow, St.
Rollox) : I beg to move to leave out the
following words:-
Consisting of arable land held with a right
of pasturage in common with others, and in
which there still are tenants of holdings from
year to year, who habitually reside on their
holdings."
Amendment proposed, in page 10,
line 22, to leave out from the word
"holdings," to the word "holdings," in
line 25, inclusive.-(Mr. M Culloeh.)
Question proposed, "That the words
proposed to be left out stand part of the
Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.) : I do not
think this would be workable, as it
would destroy the specific difference be-
tween crofters and ordinary tenants.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE,
the following Amendments made:-
Page 10, line 27, after "a," insert
"dwelling;" after "house," insert
"situated in a crofting parish."
THE CHAIRMAN called upon Mr.
J. W. BARCLAY to move the next Amend-
ment.


{COMMONS }


(No'. 2) Bill. 104







105 Crofters (Scotland)


MR. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire): I wish to ask the right
hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord
Advocate to explain his definition of
the word cottarr." When he says,
" who pays no rent to the landlord,"
what does he mean by landlord ? "
THE CHAIRMAN: I have called on
the hon. Gentleman the Member for
Forfarshire to move the next Amend-
ment.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I beg to move to leave out, in line 28,
the words "who pays no rent to the
landlord." I wish to give the right hon.
and learned Gentleman an opportunity
to explain the words in the sub-section,
and to get a proper definition of the
word cottar."
Amendment proposed, in page 10,
line 28, to leave out the words "who
pays no rent to the landlord."--(Mr. J.
W. Barclay.)
Question proposed, "That the words
proposed to be left out stand part of
the Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFonU (Clackmannan, &c.): I would
ask the hon. Gentleman to look at the
Amendment a few lines lower down to
see the definition we propose to give to
the word cottar." We propose that in
the first place the cottar should be-
The occupier of a house with or without land
who pays no rent to the landlord;"
and we propose to add-
"as also the tenant from year to year of
a dwelling-house situated in a crofting parish
who habitually resides therein, and who pays to
the landlord therefore an annual rent not exceed-
ing six pounds in money, whether with or with-
out garden ground, but without arable or pas-
ture land."
In this way we shall have a better defi-
nition of cottar than that in the Bill
as it stands. I may explain that by a
cottar is meant a person who is on the
land, either with the landlord's tolerance
or by agreement with the landlord. But
it would not include, and it is not in-
tended to include, a person who is upon
the land by some arrangement with the
principal tenant to which the landlord is
not a party and which may be against
his contract with his tenant. It is
reasonable that in cases where a land-
lord allows a person to reside on his
land, and perhaps build a house on it,
without paying rent, that that person


should have the benefits of the Act; but,
on the other hand, if the tenant makes a
bargain with some person to which the
landlord is no party, it would not be fair
or right to make the landlord liable for
compensation to such person. It is no-
torious that in the Western Highlands
one of the greatest evils has been the
process of sub-division and squatting on
crofts. It would be unreasonable to
give the benefits of the Act to a person
who possibly has come upon the land
with the knowledge not of the landlord,
but of someone else, and possibly to the
injury of the croft.
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll): I do
not think that description is correct. The
right hon. and learned Gentleman as-
sumes that the cottar who is on the land
has gone there in defiance of the land-
lord-[Mr. J. B. BALFOUR: No; on
the contrary.] I understand the right
hen. and learned Gentleman to exclude
the cottar from the benefits of the Act as
to compensation, because he will be upon
not the landlord's but the crofter's land.
I asked the right hen. and learned Gen-
tleman a question on this matter some
time ago-on a previous evening. I will
repeat my query; it was, Will the land-
lord, under this Act, be entitled to
evict the cottar who has squatted on the
crofter's holding, that crofter being in
possession of the holding by a tenure
called fixity of tenure? The crofter is
the landlord for all time so long as he
pays the rent; and what I want to
understand from the right hen. and
learned Gentleman is whether or not the
cottar evicted in the way I have referred
to will be entitled to compensation ?
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: A person
under those circumstances would not be
entitled to the benefits of the Act; and
I should submit that he ought not to be,
because he is not on the land with the
permission-either tacit or stated -of
the landlord. Would it be reasonable to
make the landlord or anybody else liable
for compensation to a person whom he
has neither tolerated on his land nor
made a bargain with ?
Mn. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire): I do not think that such
a class would come under the Bill. It is
well known that the vast majority of
cottars do not pay rent to the landlord,
but to the tenant. What does the right
hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord
Advocate mean by pretending to give
[Sixth Night.]


JAPRIT, 19, 18861


(No. 2) Bill. .106







107 Crofter8 (Scotland)


certain benefits to the cottars, and then
hedging the gift about in such a way
that no benefit at all is conferred? Surely
he means something when he speaks
about doing something for the cottar.
How many cottars will come under this
Bill? I do not believe more than 100.
Mn. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.): I
understand the Lord Advocate to say
that the presence of a cottar on a
crofter's holding would be a breach of
this Act. May I ask, that if such a
breach would cause a forfeiture of all
the benefits of the Act to the crofter,
whether it is intended to make this Act
an engine for the purpose of getting rid
of any crofters who have cottars on their
holdings ?
DR. CLARK (Caithness): When a
cottar is removed from his dwelling ac-
cording to the 9th clause, or when he is
removed from any land or buildings
occupied by him in connection there-
with, he is to be entitled to compensation
for permanent improvements; but now
you say the cottar is to be a person who
pays no rent to the landlord, or a tenant
from year to year of a dwelling-house
situated in a crofting parish who habi-
tually resides therein, and who pays to
the landlord therefore an annual rent not
exceeding 6 in money. Now we have
got the cottar who pays no rent to the
landlord and the cottar who does pay
rent to the landlord. But there is an-
other class of cottars whom nothing in
this definition will include-who do not
pay rent to the landlord, but pay rent in
service to the tenant. If they are turned
out, I should like to know who is to
give them compensation ? The Act says
they are to get compensation, but it
does not say who they are to get it from.
I think we ought to have the clause
made more clear even than it would be
by the Amendment of the Lord Advo-
cate.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I venture to
think that the Committee would not
wish compensation to be given to per-
sons who were on the land without the
consent of the landlord. Their only
claim for compensation would in justice
lie against those who allowed them to
be on the land.
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll) : I
should be glad to accept the view of the
Lord Advocate if the class of people in
question were imported on to the land;
but what are the facts? As a rule,
Mr. Fraser- Mackintosh


every cottar to be found squatting on
property is either an evicted tenant or
the descendant of an evicted tenant. He
has been allowed to squat by the land-
lord, in order that he might avoid the
necessity of turning him into a state of
complete destitution. It is not accurate
to say that these men are not upon the
land with the tacit consent of the land-
lord as well as the crofter. Everyone
knows that if it were not so the landlord
could turn him and the crofter out. The
law would assist him in doing so.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.) : This is a very wide defini-
tion. But there are two definitions-
one is that a cottar is a man who pays,
and the other that he is a man who does
not pay, rent.
MR. CROMPTON (Staffordshire,
Leek): I have a difficulty in under-
standing the definition which says that
a cottar is the occupier of a house who
pays no rent to the landlord. Though
the Lord Advocate proposes to alter the
definition originally in the Bill by the
Amendment on the Paper in his name,
his definition does not explain the ques-
tion I ask-who is the man who does not
pay rent to the landlord ? It seems to me
four or five classes of people come within
that definition. First of all, there is the
man who is allowed by the landlord to
go on peaceably in a house without pay-
ing rent. He is a man who should be
compensated. But, certainly, the man
who is a squatter pays no rent, and the
definition would entitle him to compen-
sation. I am not quite sure whether it
would not include the landlord himself,
because he pays no rent. The cottar
would, under this clause, be entitled
to share in the benefit of extended
pasturage. He is a man who pays no
rent to the landlord, but to the crofter;
and I should think he would be entitled
to compensation. I cannot but think
that this clause will be the cause of great
confusion when the Act is passed if it is
not made clearer. Certainly, it does
not seem to be satisfactory in its present
form.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I am afraid the present definition of
cottarr" might refer to both crofters
and cottars. A person who holds of
a larger tenant is a crofter or cottar;
and, according to the definition, a
crofter is a man who resides on a small
holding. He is also a cottar because he


{COMMONS


(No. 2) Bill. 108






109 Crofters (Scotland)


resides in a house and pays no rent to
the landlord. There is, undoubtedly,
great confusion in the definition; and I
do not think that the Lord Advocate
quite realizes the position of the class
for whom he proposes to legislate. I
should like to know whether a man who
has four or five acres of land and a
dwelling-house is a cottar, and whether
he is not also a crofter?
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: At one time
the sub-tenant was uncommon; but
this applies to what is now undoubtedly
a common case, and was reported to be
so by the Royal Commission, of persons
who are in relation with the landlord.
I suggest that the matter should stand
over, to see how the clause will read
when reprinted in the amended form.
MR. J. E. O'DOHERTY (Donegal,
N.): Does not the Lord Advocate see
that the building is actually included,
and that money will be passed to some-
one ? Surely there will be some person
to receive it, and that will be the person
who built the property. I suggest that
the provision of the Irish Land Act
should be applied.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed,
In page 10, line;28, after the word "land-
lord," to insert the words "' as also the tenant
from year to year of a dwelling-house situated
in a crofting parish who habitually resides
therein, and who pays to the landlord therefore
an annual rent not exceeding six pounds in
money, whether with or without garden ground,
but without arable or pasture land."-(The Lord
Advocate.)
Question proposed, "Thatthose words
be there inserted."
MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.) : I
think in this case that the Lord Advo-
cate cannot be said not to include in the
Act compensation with respect to leases.
I propose on that account to move the
omission of the words "from year to
year."
THE CHAIRMAN: That has already
been decided.
Mn. CHANCE: I think that decision
was in reference to crofters only.
MR. KIMBER (Wandsworth): I wish
to point out that the definition of cot-
tar" would seem to cover the case of a
man who holds not from the landlord,
but from the farmer, who may be an
intermediate lessee. If that be so, he
would be entitled under Clause 9 to
compensation; but it does not appeal


from whom that compensation is to be
received. As I understand it, the cottar,
as here defined, even if he be holding
under a farmer as intermediate lessee,
will come under the definition of a man
who pays no rent to the landlord.
Mn. J. B. BALFOUR: I think the
case put by the hon. Gentleman opposite
(Mr. Kimber) does not come under the
definition; but, as the point has been re-
ferred to, I shall consider it as he has sug-
gested. My view is that the claim should
not come against the landlord.
Mn. KIMBER: Do not the words
"holds direct from the landlord" cover
my case? You mean that the cottar
must be a man who holds direct from
the landlord, and yet pays no rent ?
MR. J. E. O'DOHERTY (Donegal,
N.) : I should say your definition ought
to be wide enough to cover the case
which may frequently arise of eviction
of his sub-tenant by a farmer.
MA. J. B. BALFOUR: I suggest, for
the purpose of making this definition
more correct,that the word "habitually"
should be left out.
Amendment proposed to the said pro-
posed Amendment, line 3, leave out the
word "habitually."-(The Lord Advo-
cate.)
Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed, "That the Amend-
ment, as amended, be added to the
Clause."
Smi JOHN RAMSDEN (York, W.R.,
Osgoldcross): There are many cases
of persons who have houses with gar-
Sdens around them, and who, although
they do not occupy any pasture land,
are in the habit of grazing cows on
pasture land. Would they be cottars ?
Or are they, as it appears to me by the
definition, crofters, which I think is not
the intention of the Bill ?
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I should
think that would not vary the position
at all.
Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUn) (Clackmannan, &c.): The
Amendment relating to the definition of
"fisherman is not necessary.
Mn. M'CULLOCH (Glasgow, St.
Rollox): I rise to move the omission
0 of the word the," in line 29, on the
Ground that the use of the definite
[Sixth Night.]


JAPRIL 19, 18861


(No. 2) B0l. 110







111 Crofters (Scotland)


article would exclude every useful im-
provement which does not happen to be
enumerated in the Schedule. This, I
may point out, is one of the great de-
fects of the Agricultural Holdings Act.
Amendment proposed, in page 10,
line 29, to leave out the word "the."-
(Mr. M' Culloch.)
Question proposed, "That the word
proposed to be left out stand part of the
Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): I take
the same view as my hon. Friend with
regard to the Agricultural Holdings Act,
because I entirely agree that any im-
provement should be paid for; but I
suggest that under this Bill the Amend-
ment of the hen. Member would be
greatly at variance with the work which
the Committee have already done. It
has always been the custom to endea-
your to define the nature of improve-
ments. No doubt the hon. Member has
in view improvements which add to the
value of the holding. Does the hon.
Member mean improvements which will
permanently add to the value of the
holding ? There are several classes-
liming, manuring, and so on.
MR. M'CULLOCH: I should say
that all improvements are more or less
permanent.
Mn. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester,
E.): It is of little use to speak of per-
manent improvements without defining
under what class those improvements are
to come. It would be quite a new pro-
cedure if they were not put in the Sche-
dule, and great difficulty would arise in
consequence.
Mn. M'CULLOCH: I had the plea-
sure of being one of those first con-
sulted when an Agricultural Holdings
Bill was drafted for Scotland.- If my
Amendment is not agreed to, how do
you propose to deal with new improve-
ments which may hereafter be intro-
duced ?
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
Of course there are many improvements
which are not permanent. Is it not the
intention to compensate for such im-
provements ?
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: The only ne-
cessity for mentioning the improvements
is because we propose a much more
liberal scale than that in the Act of
1873.
Mr. M'Culloch


DR. CLARK (Caithness): We dis-
cussed this subject the other night for
some hours, and the Lord Advocate
agreed that other improvements should
be scheduled. The right hen. and learned
Gentleman said he would extend the
Schedule by adding manuringg and
liming; but we have not yet any clause
before us in which the Lord Advocate
carries out the promise he made. Will
the right hen. and learned Gentleman
point out how he proposes to give com-
pensation both for improvements which
are not permanent and those which
are ?
Amendment negatived.
Amendment proposed,
In page 10, line 29, to leave out the words
"specified in this Act," and insert which add
to the value of the subject, and to which the
crofter shall be invested with full title and
power of sale, unless he shall elect to have
them valued over in manner provided in section
ten of this Act: Provided always, That ex-
ception be made of those which have been exe-
cuted by the landlord otherwise than in fulfil-
ment of written agreement."-(Mr. 1M'Culloch.)
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): We can-
not accept this Amendment. In this
case the tenant would come under the
Agricultural Holdings Act.
DR. CLARK (Caithuess): I do not
see why you should limit the operation
of the Act to those who have held five
years and longer than that period.
There may be people who have succeeded
by inheritance within the five years, and
to them the Act will not apply. The
words of the clause are-
"And which has been occupied and used as
arable or pasture land (whether such pasture
land is held by the crofter alone, or in common
with others) for a period of not less than five
years prior to the passing of this Act."
A woman may for a year or two have
held the land of her deceased husband,
but under these words she will lose all
the powers and benefits of the Act. The
proposed limitation is contrary to every
theory on which the Bill is based, and
we will see if the Lord Advocate under-
stands his own theory or not. Let us see
if he will apply it in favour of the
crofters.
Amendment proposed, in page 10, line
85, to leave out the words "for a period
of not less than five years."-(Dr.
Clark.)


{COMMONS}


(flo. 2) Bill. 1 f2







113 Crofters (Scotland)


Question proposed, "That the words
proposed to be left out stand part of the
Clause."
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR (Clackmannan, &c.) : The, ob-
ject of putting in these words was
simply to secure that a person should
truly possess the character of a crofter.
I have, however, no strong view in re-
gard to them. I can quite conceive that
they might work harshly, and therefore
they might be left out.
Ml. J. P. B. ROBERTSON (Bute) :
I beg my right hon. and learned Friend's
pardon. If he will look twice at the
clause he will see that the words "five
years are applicable not to the tenure
of a particular croft, but to the descrip-
tion of the ground. [Mr. J. B. BAL-
FouR : That was intended.] The phrase-
ology of the clause is-
Holding' means any piece of land held by
a crofter, consisting of arable or pasture land,
or of land partly arable and partly pasture, and
which has been occupied and used as arable or
pasture land (whether such pasture land is held
by the crofter alone, or in common with others)
for a period of not less than five years prior to
the passing of this Act."
In point of fact, it means this-that the
Act is not to apply to any piece of hill
ground which has been in the occupa-
tion of a crofter. The arguments of the
hon. Member for Caithness (Dr. Clark)
do not apply to the case at all.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: That was the
intention, but subject to the criticism
that it might apply to the case of some-
body succeeding. I dare say my hon.
Friend (Dr. Clark) will be satisfied with
the assurance that the clause will not
be subject to that difficulty.
Dr. CLARK: Even if it were not so
ambiguous, and might not be used
against those who succeed to a holding,
why should a man who has taken a
piece of hill and has improved the land
lose any right to compensation for his
improvements? On what ground of
equity would you take from a man who
has taken land and improved it the right
to compensation for his improvement?
If the land was not worth Is., but has
been made valuable by the investment
of capital and labour, why should the
tenant be refused the benefit of the Act?
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
The Bill certainly ought to apply to any
piece of land which has been in the occu-
pation of the tenant. I do not see why


a tenant who has improved a piece of
hill should not receive the benefit of the
Act.
MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.): May
I point out to the Lord Advocate that
there is great ambiguity in the clause
as it stands. I need not read all the
words; but the clause provides that-
Holding' means any piece of land ....
which has been occupied and used as arable or
pasture land .... for not less than five years."
These words leave it quite ambiguous
as to by whom the land has been occu-
pied.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I think I
should be disposed, for the present at
all events, to leave out the words. The
words may not be quite clear; but we
can reconsider the matter before Re-
port.
Mr. KIMBER (Wandsworth): If
these words be left out the clause will
be ambiguous. The omission of these
words will mean that a holding must be
understood to be any piece of land which
has been occupied or used for any time
heretofore.
Mn. J. B. BALFOUR: If there was
no other difficulty than that it could be
got over by inserting the word imme-
diately." Perhaps it would be as well
if I were to move to leave out "for a
period of not less than five years prior
to," in order to insert "immediately pre-
ceding."
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed, in page 10, line
35, to leave out the words "for a period
of not less than five years prior to," in
order to insert the words "immediately
preceding,"-( The Lord Advocate,)-in-
stead thereof.
Amendment agreed to.
MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON (Bute):
The definition provides that a "holding
does not include garden ground only
appurtenant to a house." I propose to
amend the provision by inserting or
grazing" after "garden." My Amend-
ment is intended to cover a case where
a house forms the main value of the
holding, but where there is a paddock
or grazing land for a pony. I may say,
in order to disarm opposition from hon.
Gentlemen sitting below the Gangway
opposite, that the class of holdings to
which I refer are really not holdings of
crofters at all. The holdings are those
[Sixth Ni.ght.~]


JAPRIL 19, 1886)


(No. 2) Pill. 114







115 Crofters (Scotland)


of well-to-do people, and are valued,
say, at about 25 a-year. I am quite
certain all the persons who occupy these
holdings voted against hon. Members
opposite; therefore, those hon. Gentle-
men need not extend their sympathy
to them. I think my Amendment gives
completeness to the proposal. The second
Amendment standing in my name refers
to the case where the ground is partly
garden and partly grazing.
Amendment proposed, in page 10,
line 86, after the word garden to in-
sert the words "or grazing."--(Mr.
J. P. B. Robertson.)
Question proposed, "That those words
be there inserted."
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.): This Amendment recalls to
memory our old friend the "three acres
and a cow," and I do not think it ought
to be accepted. As the Bill now stands
a "holding" is not to include garden
ground only. If a man has garden
ground only he is a cottar, if he has
grazing land he is a crofter.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &o.): It seems
to me that this Amendment might give
rise to the rather difficult question whe-
ther grazing was appurtenant to the
house or the house appurtenant to the
grazing unless there is some definition
of the relative value. I quite see that
a mere paddock inclosed within a hedge
should not make a man a crofter.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester,
E.): I think that such a doubtful case
might with safety be left to the Land
Commission.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: Perhaps it
might without this definition.
Di. CLARK (Caithness): I think the
two Amendments standing in the name
of the Lord Advocate on page 15 of the
Amendments will meet this case. If you
accept the Amendment now under con-
sideration it is quite possible that you
would disqualify a large number of
crofters, especially the men in Orkney
and Shetland, who raise ponies and
use their land for that purpose.
There is a large number of people
who only use their land for grazing
purposes they are fishermen and
graziers combined. By this Amend-
ment you would remove them at once
from the position of crofters, and they
would lose all the benefit of the Bill.
Mr. J. P. B. Robertson


The power given to the Land Com-
mission to determine such questions sum-
marily will be quite sufficient to meet the
case. If a man who has got grazing
ground attached to his house should
pose as a crofter the Land Commission
may very summarily dismiss his appli-
cation.
Mn. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
If this Amendment were accepted this
Bill would only apply to arable land, and
not apply to any person except the very
few crofters and cottars in the Western
Highlands who have a piece of arable
land.
MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON: Perhaps
I may make a suggestion which the Lord
Advocate can consider either immediately
or at a later stage. I have no desire
whatever to exclude persons having
very small holdings-I mean holdings
within the reach of real crofters. It
occurs to me that one solution of the
difficulty might be this-to define the
house as being of a certain value, say
15. A house in the country of that
value is a very good house. The clause
might read-
"Does not include garden or grazing ground
only, appurtenant to a house of the value of
15."
The case I want to exclude is the case
of people who, with a total holding of
20, 25, or 30, have really paid the
money for the house, and who have
only a small piece of ground appurtenant
to the house.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: Perhaps the
hon. and learned Gentleman will leave
the matter over until Report.
MR. J. E. O'DOHERTY (Donegal,
N.): It is well to bear in mind that
serious injury would result from this
Amendment. Take the case of a small
croft upon which a good house has been
built by a crofter, or some person in
the position of a crofter. The house
would actually form the main portion of
the improvements to be compensated
for. The moment the value of the house
rises above the garden or the appur-
tenant grazing, it becomes the subject-
matter of the letting. I hope the right
hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord
Advocate will strongly resist the Amend-
ment.
Amendment negative.
MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON (Bute):
My next Amendment to the clause-that


{COMMONS}


(.Yo. 2) Bill. 116







117 Crofters (Scotland) {APRIL 19, 1886}


relating to the class of persons whose
crofts are held by reason of some em-
ployment or office-is sufficiently met
by one put down by the Lord Advocate
after my Notice. My last Amendment
deals with the case of mills. My impres-
sion is that there are many cases in which
it would not be right to apply the pro-
visions of the Act to mills.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOun) (Clackmannan, &c.) : I hardly
think the Amendment is necessary.
Mn. J. P. B. ROBERTSON: If the
right hon. and learned Gentleman does
not wish it I will not press the Amend-
ment.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Clause, as amended, stand
part of the Bill."
MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.): The
crofter must be a legal tenant. In Ire-
land there has been considerable diffi-
culty in the matter, and therefore I hope
the Lord Advocate will see his way on
Report to add some clause to make the
point clear.
DR. CLARK (Caithness): The point
raised by the hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Chance) is a very important one, and I
trust it will receive the consideration of
the right hon. and learned Gentleman
the Lord Advocate. Perhaps it is as
well I should bring to the right hon. and
learned Gentleman's recollection the fact
that 18 months ago the hon. Member for
Argyllshire (Mr. Macfarlane) introduced
to him a deputation of crofters who were
being evicted. The papers presented
by the deputation clearly showed that
some of the crofters held crofts from
bog farmers. It is evident that some-
thing must be done for men in such a
position.
Motion agreed to.
Clause 30 (Short title) agreed to.
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): I beg
to propose to insert the following new
Clause after Clause 13:-
(Deduction from rent in case of lands held for
sporting purposes.)
"Where a portion of any land held under
lease for the purposes of a deer forest, or of a
grouse moor, or for other sporting purpose, is
assigned by the Land Commission for the en-
largement of the holding or holdings of a crofter
or crofters under this Act, the Land Commission
shall, when they so assign such land, fix the
amount of the deduction (if any) which in their


judgment ought to be made from the rent pay-
able by the tenant under the lease to the land-
lord, in respect of the portion of the land held
under the same having been assigned as afore-
Eaid, and thereafter the tenant under the lease
shallbe liable to the landlord only in the balance
of the rent thereby stipulated, after deduction
of the sum so fixed."
New Clause brought up, read the first
and second time, and added to the Bill.
Mn. J. B. BALFOUR moved the in-
sertion of the following new Clause after
Clause 14:-
(Bequest of holding.)
"A crofter may, by will or other testamen-
tary writing, bequeath his right to his holding
to one person, being a member of the same
family, that is to say, his wife or any person
who, failing nearer heirs, would succeed to him
in case of intestacy (hereinafter called the
'legatee'), subject to the following pro-
visions :-
(a.) The legatee shall intimate the testa-
mentary bequest to the landlord or his
known agent within twenty-one days
after the death of the crofter, unless he
is prevented by some unavoidable cause
from making intimation within that time,
and, in that event, he shall make inti-
mation as soon as possible thereafter;
(b.) Intimation to the landlord or his
known agent by the legatee shall import
acceptance of the crofter's right to the
holding by the legatee;
(c.) Within one month after intimation has
been made to the landlord or his known
agent, he may intimate to the legatee
that he objects to receive him as crofter
in the holding.
If the landlord or his known agent
makes no such intimation within one
month, the legatee shall come into the
place of the crofter in the holding, and
shall have all the rights, and be subject
to all the liabilities, pertaining to the
crofter therein, as from the date of the
death of the deceased crofter;
(d.) If the landlord or his known agent
intimates that he objects to receive the
legatee as crofter in the holding, the
legatee may present a petition to the
sheriff, praying for decree declaring that
he is the crofter therein as from the date
of the death of the deceased crofter, of
which petition due notice shall be given
to the landlord, who may enter appear-
ance and state his grounds of objection;
and, if any reasonable ground of objec-
tion is established to the satisfaction of
the sheriff, he shall declare the bequest to
be'null and void; but, otherwise, he shall
decree and declare in terms of the prayer
of the petition;
(e.) The decision of the sheriff under such
petition as aforesaid shall be final;
(f.) Pending any proceedings under this
section, the legatee shall have possession
of the holding unless the sheriff shall
otherwise direct on cause shown;
[Sixth Night.]


(To. 2) Bill. 118







119 Crofters (Scotland)


(g.) If the legatee does not accept the
bequest, or if the bequest is declared to
be null and void as aforesaid, the right
of the holding shall descend to the heir
of the crofter, in the same manner as if
the bequest had not been made."
New Clause brought up, and read the
first and second time.
Mn. MACFARLANE (Argyll): I
have an Amendment to propose to this
clause. The object of the Amendment
is very simple; it is, if possible, to
slightly extend the scope of the Act.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman
proposes by this new clause to give to
the crofter the power to bequeath his
holding. The crofter cannot sell his
holding; but that is not the question I
want to discuss. What I want to do is
to secure that the bequest can be made
to any person, whether of the same
family or not. At present the power of
bequest is strictly limited to persons
who would otherwise be heirs. Will
the right hon. and learned Gentleman
tell me this. In case of a crofter's de-
cease without testamentary bequest, will
his son inherit ? Suppose a testamentary
deposition does not, from ignorance, or
neglect, or any other cause, take place,
will the dying crofter's son come in to
the property ? There is no provision in
Bill to entitle a crofter to bequeath the
holding to his family. Will the right
hon. and learned Gentleman accept an
Amendment in that direction ?
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: Subject to
proper qualifications.
MR. MACFARLANE: I beg to move
the Amendment which stands in my
name.
Amendment proposed, to leave out
from the word "person," in line 2, to
the word "legatee," in line 13.-(Mfr.
.Macfarlane.)
Question proposed, "That the words
'being a member of the same family'
stand part of the Clause."
MB. J. B. BALFOUR : I think I can,
in a very few words, show that, so far
from their being any inconsistency in
this provision and the others, they are
entirely consistent, and are intended to
confer what I believe would very often
be a very considerable benefit-namely,
the right of selecting a heir from a
large class of persons. The hon. Mem-
ber (Mr. Macfarlane) has asked what is
'to become of the property in case of in-


testacy? Undoubtedly, by the law of
Scotland, it would, as real property, go
to the heir. I am afraid that if this
Amendment were accepted, it would not
be consistent with the decision the Com-
mittee has already come to on the sub-
ject of free sale, because if there was to
be bequest outside the very large group
of persons-practically, the clan, who
would feel themselves heirs-there would
be the right to bring in strangers. We
should not be doing right if we accepted
this Amendment.
MR. KIMBER (Wandsworth): I be-
lieve this clause was introduced in con-
sequence of some suggestions I made on
the second reading. I should like to ask
the Lord Advocate whether he has been
able to give his attention to some notes
I gave him, and whether the clause, in
its present form, completely effects the
object intended-whether there is not a
case which is not provided for? I can-
not say whether words necessary to cover
the case should be inserted in the clause
we are now discussing; but I will ex-
plain the point I have put before the
Lord Advocate. Under Sub-section (c)
the landlord may object to the legatee
as successor, and under Sub-section (d),
if the landlord objects, the legatee may
present a petition and may have it ad-
judicated upon. But nothing is pro-
vided as to what shall take place if the
legatee does not present a petition.
THE CHAIRMAN: These questions
will come up subsequently. The Ques-
tion is, That the words being a mem-
ber of the same family' stand part of
the Clause.'
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll): I
think we have now arrived at a con-
tentious question which cannot possibly
be disposed of within the next hour. I,
therefore, move that you, Mr. Courtney,
should report Progress.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Chairman do report Progress,
and ask leave to sit again."-(Mr. Mao-
farlans.)
Mn. J. B. BALFOUR: I hope this
Motion will not be pressed. It will not
take very much longer to get through
the Bill. It is of very great importance,
whatever view hon. Members may take
of the Bill, that we should get through
Committee to-night, and that the Bill,
as amended, may be circulated through-
out Scotland during the Recess. We


{COMMONS}


(Xo. 2) Bill. 120






121 Crofters (Scotland)


shall then have the benefit of communi-
cations from all persons interested.
This is one of the points I should be
quite ready to take in the most informal
way, and give effect to any opinion that
prevails. If there is a prevalent feeling
that this somewhat larger extension
should be made, I certainly should not
resist it. I hope we shall not be put to
the trouble of a division.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester,
E.): I hope the bon. Gentleman the
Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macfar-
lane) will allow us to proceed with the
Bill. I am quite satisfied Gentlemen
sitting on the Opposition side of the
House are anxious to support the Go-
vernment as far as they can in the
endeavour to finish the Committee stage
to-night, which cannot last very long
now. Of course I shall be prepared to
deal with the Amendment when the
present Motion is disposed of.
MR. MACFARLANE: The Lord Ad-
vocate has expressed his readiness to
ascertain the prevalent opinion upon
this subject. It is very hard to ascer-
tain the prevalent opinion of the Com-
mittee at 1 o'clock in the morning. It
is perfectly clear this is a most con-
tentious subject, and that much discus-
sion must take place before justice can
be done to it. I must divide the Com-
mittee on the Motion to report Progress.
MR. J. W. BARCLAY (Forfarshire):
I must appeal to my hon. Friend not to
press the Motion. Of course, I quite
agree with him that the Amendment he
has moved to the new clause is one
which might very fairly be accepted by
the Lord Advocate.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes 23;
Noes 161: Majority 188.-(Div. List,
No. 83.)
Question again proposed, "That the
words 'being a member of the same
family,' stand part of the Clause."
MR. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester,
E.) : I should like to point out, in regard
to the words the hon. Member has pro-
posed, that, in the first place, if we adopt
them we shall put the crofter in a far
better position than any tenant in any
part of England or Ireland; secondly,
we shall be accepting a principle which
we have rejected over and over again
in this Committee-the principle of free


sale; and, in the third place, I would
point out that they are wholly antago-
nistic to the principle on which this Bill
is founded. This Bill is based upon the
hereditary principle, and it is in conse-
quence of that that special privileges are
given the crofter. Therefore, I trust
that the Lord Advocate will not throw
to the winds the principles which he has
so often and so powerfully advocated,
but will adhere to the Bill in its present
shape.
MR. MACFARLANE: The whole
Bill is to give to Scotch crofters, under
the special circumstances of the case,
special terms which English tenants
have not got. I fully understand that
the Lord Advocate would personally be
willing to accept the Amendment; but
he has got his cue from the Co-opera-
tive Benches, and that he will therefore
vote against it. If that is so I shall
divide the Committee.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: I think we
had better settle the question at once
by a division.
MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.):
What the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. A.
J. Balfour) has said with regard to what
he calls the principle on which the Bill
is founded, I would suggest is all non-
sense.
MR. SMALL (Down, S.): I would
point out that under the Irish Act the
Irist tenants enjoy an unlimited power
of devise by will, and there are no more
special claims in regard to Ireland. The
grievances of which the crofters and the
Irish tenants complain are very much
the same, and I cannot see why we
should make flesh of one and fish of
the other. As an Irish Member, I feel
bound to say that I do not see that the
Irish tenants should be treated diffe-
rently to the Scotch crofters.
MR. J. B. BALFOUR: That would
be all very well if the circumstances
were the same; but they are not. There
is no law of custom, or anything else-
in fact, the cases are entirely different.
MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.): Having
looked somewhat carefully into the two
cases, I am of opinion they are absolutely
analogous,
DR. CLARK (Caithness): The Lord
Advocate was doubtful on this point
before we had a division. He was
anxious to take the evident sense of the
Committee. There was one Member
rose after that to object to the Amend-
SixFh igM.q]


JAPR1IL 19, 18861


(Yo. 2) Bill. 122




University of Florida Home Page
© 2004 - 2010 University of Florida George A. Smathers Libraries.
All rights reserved.

Acceptable Use, Copyright, and Disclaimer Statement
Last updated October 10, 2010 - - mvs