• TABLE OF CONTENTS
HIDE
 Title Page
 Table of Contents
 Lords and Commons
 March 1886
 April 1886
 Index














Title: Hansard's parliamentary debates
ALL VOLUMES CITATION PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00072012/00003
 Material Information
Title: Hansard's parliamentary debates
Physical Description: 361 v. : ; 23-25 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Great Britain -- Parliament
Hansard, T. C ( Thomas Curson ), 1776-1833
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: S.l
Manufacturer: T.C. Hansard
Publication Date: 1829-1891
 Subjects
Subject: Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Great Britain -- 19th century   ( lcsh )
 Notes
Dates or Sequential Designation: New ser., v. 21 (Mar./June 1829)-v. 25 (June/July 1830); 3rd ser., v. 1 (Oct./Dec. 1830)-v. 356 (July/Aug. 1891).
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00072012
Volume ID: VID00003
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 07655885
lccn - sn 85062630
 Related Items
Preceded by: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Succeeded by: Parliamentary debates (1892-1908)

Table of Contents
    Title Page
        Title Page 1
    Table of Contents
        Table of Contents 1
        Table of Contents 2
        Table of Contents 3
        Table of Contents 4
        Table of Contents 5
        Table of Contents 6
        Table of Contents 7
        Table of Contents 8
        Table of Contents 9
        Table of Contents 10
        Table of Contents 11
        Table of Contents 12
        Table of Contents 13
        Table of Contents 14
        Table of Contents 15
        Table of Contents 16
        Table of Contents 17
        Table of Contents 18
        Table of Contents 19
        Table of Contents 20
        Table of Contents 21
        Table of Contents 22
        Table of Contents 23
        Table of Contents 24
        Table of Contents 25
        Table of Contents 26
        Table of Contents 27
        Table of Contents 28
        Table of Contents 29
        Table of Contents 30
        Table of Contents 31
        Table of Contents 32
        Table of Contents 33
        Table of Contents 34
        Table of Contents 35
        Table of Contents 36
        Table of Contents 37
        Table of Contents 38
        Table of Contents 39
    Lords and Commons
        Unnumbered ( 42 )
        Unnumbered ( 43 )
    March 1886
        Page 1-2
        Friday, March 26
            Page 1-2
            Page 3-4
            Page 5-6
            Page 7-8
            Page 9-10
            Page 11-12
            Page 13-14
            Page 15-16
            Page 17-18
            Page 19-20
            Page 21-22
            Page 23-24
            Page 25-26
            Page 27-28
            Page 29-30
            Page 31-32
            Page 33-34
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            Page 51-52
            Page 53-54
            Page 55-56
            Page 57-58
            Page 59-60
        Monday, March 29
            Page 61-62
            Page 63-64
            Page 65-66
            Page 67-68
            Page 69-70
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        Tuesday, March 30
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        Wednesday, March 31
            Page 355-356
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    April 1886
        Page 417-418
        Thursday, April 1
            Page 417-418
            Page 419-420
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        Friday, April 2
            Page 583-584
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        Monday, April 5
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        Tuesday, April 6
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        Wednesday, April 7
            Page 977-978
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        Thursday, April 8
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Full Text




BANSARD'S j_


PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

THIRD SERIES:

COMMENCING WITH THE ACCESSION OF


WILLIAM IV.

FCGR THE
10aC SE--
490 VICTORI}E, 1886.



VOL. CCCIV.

COMPRISING THE PERIOD FROM

THE TWENTY-SIXTH DAY OF MARCH 1886,
TO

THE SIXTEENTH DAY OF APRIL 1886.


THIRD VOLUME OF THE SESSION.



LONDON:
PUBLISHED BY CORNELIUS BUCK & SON,
AT THE OFFICE FOR HANSARD'S PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,"
22, PATERNOSTER ROW. [E.C.]

1886.


















TABLE OF CONTENTS

TO


VOLUME CCCIV.



THIRD SERIES.



LORDS, FRIDAY, MARCH 26. Page
REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR SCOTLAND ..
IRELAND-POLICY OF THE GovERNmME -Questions, Viscount Oranbrook,
Lord Ashbourne; Answers, The Secretary of State for the Colonies
(Earl Granville) .... 2

Electric Lighting Act (1832) Amendment (No. 1) Bill-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2%,"-( The Lord Rayleigh) .. 3
After short debate, Motion agreed to:-Bill read 21 accordingly.
Electric Lighting Act (1332) Amendment (No. 2) Bill-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a,"-(The Viscount Bury) 8
Motion agreed to :-Bill read 21 accordingly.
Moved, That the Bills be referred to a Select Committee,"-(The discount
Bury) .. 9
After short debate, Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
ISLANDS OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC-THE NEW HEBRIDES-ALLEGED OCCUPA-
TION BY FRANCE-Question, Observations, The Earl of Harrowby;
Reply, The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Earl Granville) .. 11
Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment (No. 3) Bill r[m.L.]-Presented (The
Lord Houghton); read I1 (No. 48) .. .. .. 12
Consolidated Fund (No. I) Bill-
Read 2- (according to order): Committee negatived: Then Standing Order No. XXXV.
considered (according to order), and dispensed with : Bill read 3a, and passed .. 12
VOL. CCCIV. [TE.] L [5.30.]
VOL. CCOIV. [TnIUBD SEIuES.3 [ b ]







TABLE OF CONTENTS.


COMMONS, FRIDAY, MARCH 26. Page

Q UES TION8.
-o-
ARMY APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS--HELSEA IN-PENSIONERS-Question, Sir
Charles W. Dilke; Answer, The Financial Secretary, War Department
(Mr. Herbert Gladstone) .. .. .. 12
MAR LA- MARRIAGE L -CII-Question, Mr. Bradlaugh; Answer,
The Attorney General (Sir Charles Russell) .... 13
FRANcE-CoNDITiON or THE AGRICULTURAL AND INDUSTRIAL CLASSES-
REPORT OP THE COMMIssIoN-Question, Mr. F. S. Powell; Answer, The
President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. .. 14
LAW AND POLICE (IRELAND)-ARREST OF MR. MORTIMER DOYLE-Ques-
tions, Mr. Clancy; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .......... 14
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-CASE OF "M'MEEKAN v. THOMSON "-Ques-
tion, Mr. Clancy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
MoIley) ..... 15
IRISH LIGHTS-BOAT SERVICE TO THE FASTNET ROOK LIGHTHOUSE-Ques-
tion, Mr. Gilhooly; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .. .... .. 16
MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND) ACT-REFUSAL or MEDICAL RELIEF-CASE or
GEORGE MAiRUN, CASHEL UNION-Questions, Major Saunderson, Mr.
Sexton; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 17
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-BLOWING UP OF HOUSE OF ROBERT MAR-
SHALL AT LONDONDERRY-Questions, Mr. John Redmond, Mr. Sexton;
Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 17
FInIILRIES (SCOTLAND)-BEAM TRAWLING IN IN-SHORE WATERS-Question,
Mr. Preston Bruce; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) 19
IRELAND-THE MAGISTRACY-MESSRS. TRUELL, BARTON, AND ACTON-CASE
or MR. STOnEY-Question, Mr. W. J. Corbet; Answer, The Chief Secre-
tary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ...... 19
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-BOGUS OUTRAGE AT CASTLECAULFIELD,
Co. TYRONE-CASE OF ROBERT CUDDY-Question, Mr. William O'Brien;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 20
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-OUTRAGE IN PORTADOWN-Question, Mr.
William O'Brien; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. .. .. .. .. 21
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-THE SHERIFF OF GALWAY-Question. Mr.
Sexton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 21
AFRICA (EAST COAST)-FOREIGN ANNEXATION-Question, Mr. James Hutton;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) 23
SOUTH AFRICA-THE SALE OF INTOXICATING DRINKS IN THE TRANSKEI-Ques-
tion, Mr. Valentine; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the
Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) .. 23
ARMY-THE MARTINI-ENFIELD RIFLE-Question, Mr. Chance; Answer,
The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. 24
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-MURDER OF PATRICK FINLAY AT WOOD-
FORD-Question, Captain M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 24
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-MEMORIAL FOR REMISSION OF SENTENCES-
CASE OF THE O'BRIENS-Question, Captain M'Calmont; Answer, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 25
LAW AND POLICE-ACTION OF THE POLICE AT LEEDS-Question, Mr. William
Redmond; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Childers) .... .. .. 25
HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE (CHANCERY DIVISION)-TAXING MASTERS-Ques-
tion, Mr. Bartley; Answer, The Attorney General (Sir Charles Russell) 26







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[Maarch 26.1 Page
INDIA (FINANCE, &C.)-THE SILVER CURRENCY-Question, Mr. James
Maclean; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred
Kay-Shuttleworth) ... .. 27
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-THE FIRST GLOUCESTERSHIRE ENGINEERS'
CoRPs-Question, Mr. Agg-Gardner; Answer, The Secretary of State
for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) ...... 27
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-HOUSE OF COMMONS-THE LOBBY-Question,
Mr. Brunner; Answer, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord of the Treasury) 28
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-MR. FRANK BROOK, BROOKBOROUGH, Co.
FERMANAGI-Question, Mr. William Redmond; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 28
POST OFFICE-REGISTERED TELEGRAPHIC ADDRESSES-MESSRS. J. AND W.
JUDGE, KENNINGTON-Question, Mr. Gent-Davis; Answer, The Secre-
tary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 29
DYNAMITE OUTRAGES, 1884 (METROPOLIs)-THE REWARD-Question, Vis-
count Newark; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment (Mr. Childers) .... .. 29
REGULATION OF THEATREs--LEGISLATION-Question, Captain Price; Answer,
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 30
INLAND REVENUE-SURVEYORS OF TAXEs-Question, Sir Henry Meysey
Thompson; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ........ 31
INLAND REVENUE DEPARTMENT-CUSTOMS CLERKS-Question, Colonel
Makins; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. 31
THE DUCHY OF CORNWALL-COMPENSATIONS-Question, Mr. Bradlaugh ;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 32
MERCHANT SHIPPING -THE LOSS OF THE "OREGON," CUNARD MAIL
STEAMER-Question, Mr. Forwood; Answer, The President of the
Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .... 33
SCOTLAND-TRAMWAYS FOR CROFTER DISTRICTS-Question, Mr. Mark
Stewart; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ........ 34
LAW AND JUSTICE-THE LAW OF EVIDENCE IN CONSPIRACY AND DIVORCE-
Question, Mr. H. J. Wilson; Answer, The Attorney General (Sir
Charles Russell); Observations, Sir Charles W. Dilke .... 34
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND-POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT-THE ULSTER
LIBERAL CONVENTION-Questions, Mr. De Cobain, Mr. Sexton; An-
swers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 35
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND-POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT-Question, Sir
Michael Hicks-Beach; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr.
W. E. Gladstone) .. .. .. 36
TIE ROYAL COMMISSION ON MINES-THE REPORT-Question, Sir R.
Assheton Cross; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Childers) .. .. .. 37
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-THE ANTrRI ARTILLERY MILITIA-Question,
Mr. Alexander Blane; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman) .. .... .. 37

ORDER OF THE DAY.
-o -
SUPPLY-Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question proposed,
That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair: "-
PARLIAMENT-PUBLIC BUSINESS-THE ESTIMATES-MOTION FOR A SELECT
COMMITTEE-Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words a Select Committee be appointed to consider the Estimates, in conjunction







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
L [ Karch 26.1 Page
SuPPLY-Order for Committee read-continued.
with the Official Heads of Departments, before they are submitted to the House,"
-(Mr. John Wilson (Edinburgh,)-instead thereof .... 38
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Main Question again proposed, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair: "-
GREENWICH HOSPITAL FUNDs-Observations, Captain Price :-Short
debate thereon .... 50
[House counted out] l8.0.]

LORDS, MONDAY, MARCH 29.
GREAT BRITAIN-CULTIVATION OF TOBAccO-Observations, Question, Lord
Harris; Reply, Lord Sudeley .. .. .. 6
Law of Evidence Amendment Bill (No. 44)-
Amendments reported (according to Order) .. .... 77
After short debate, Bill to be read 34 on Thursday next.
Sporting Lands Rating (Scotland) Bill (No. 36)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 21,"-(The Earl of Elgin) .. 79
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2a accordingly. L7.0.]

COMMONS, MONDAY, MARCH 29.
NEW WRIT (BARROW IN FURNESS)-
Moved, That Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out
a new writ for the election of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the
Borough of Barrow in Furness, in the room of David Duncan, Esq., whoso election
has been declared void,"-(The. Secretary to the Treasury, Mr. Arnold Morley) .. 81
Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Mr. Lewis:)-After short
debate, Question, put, and negative.
Original Question put, and agreed to.

Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND)--SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION-CROACHIE OF DAVIOT, IN-
VERNESS-SHIRE-Question, Mr. Fraser-Mackintosh; Answer, The Lord
Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .... 84
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND)-PAYMENT OF RATES IN THE HIGHLANDS
-Question, Mr. Fraser-Mackintosh; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr.
J. B. Balfour) .... .. 85
CRIMINAL LAW (SCOTLAND)-OUTRAGES ON LADY GORDON CATHCART-Ques-
tion, Mr. Fraser-Mackintosh; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B.
Balfour) .......... 85
THE ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE-ATTENDANCE OF OFFICIALS-Question, Mr.
H. Campbell; Answer, The Attorney General (Sir Charles Russell) .. 86
THE LAND COMMISSION (IRELAND)-FAIR IENTS-CASE OF HUGH REILLY
AND PATRICK REEHILL, CLINCOOHY, Co. FERMANAGH-Question, Mr.
H. Campbell; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. 87
CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT-OUTPORT CLERKS-Question, Sir Thomas Esmonde;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 87
THE BRITISH WEST INDIES-CONVENTION .WITH THE UNITED STATES-
Question, Mr. Tomlinson; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) ...... 88







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 29.] Page
EGYPT-ADMINISTRATIVE REFORMS-SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF'S REPORTS-
Questions, Sir George Campbell, Mr. Hanbury; Answers, The Under
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .... 88
STATE OF IRELAND-INFLAMMATORY PLACARDS-CASE OF ALEXANDER STEEN,
CLOGHER, CO. TYRONE-Questions, Mr. William O'Brien; Answers, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 90
NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS (IRELAND)-LEGISLATION- Question, Sir James
Corry; Answer,%The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 91
THE CHANNEL ISLANDS-JERSEY GAOL-Question, Mr. David Smith; An-
swer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) 91
LITERATURE, SCIENCE, AND ART-THE TRANSIT OF VENU--Question, Mr.
Brodrick; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ..... .. 92
PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE (IRELAND)-THE COLLECTOR GENERAL OF RATES
FOR THE CITY OF DUBLIN-Question, Mr. Sexton; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 92
INDIA-ANNEXATION OF UPPER BURMAH THE INDIAN NATIONAL CON-
GRESS, BOMBAY-Question, Mr. Hunter; Answer, The Under Secretary
of State for India (Sir Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) .. 93
INLAND REVENUE-THE SALE OF STAMPS-Question, Mr. Bernard Kelly;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 94
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-MEDICAL OFFICERS OF DISPENSARY DISTRICTS-
Question, Mr. Harris; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .... 94
INLAND REVENUE-INCOME TAX-THE ASSESSMENTS-Question, Mr. Gibb;.
Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .. 95
SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY (IRELAND) ACT, 1878-Ques-
tion, Mr. Theodore Fry; Answer, The Chief Secretary forIreland (Mr.
John Morley)... .. 96
IRISH CHURCH ACT, 1869-THE GLEBE PURCHASERS-Question, Mr.
Sexton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 96
BOARD OF WORKS (IRELAND) SYSTEM OF CONTRACTS Questions, Mr.
Peter M'Donald, Mr. Barry; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... .. 97
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-KINGSTOWN EAST PIER-Question, M.
Peter M'Donald; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry
H. Fowler) ........ 97
AGRICULTURAL DEPRESSION CULTIVATION OF TOBACCO IN THE UNITE:
KInGDoM-Question, Sir Edward Birkbeck; Answer, The Chancello
of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .. 98
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-THE RECENT WEXFORD MAIDEN ASSIZE
Questions, Mr. Barry, Mr. Johnston; Answers, The Chief Secretary fo
Ireland (Mr. John Morley).... .. 98
MOROCCO-SLAVERY AT TANJIER-CASE OF FATTAIH-Questions, Mr. Alfred
Pease; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr.
Bryce) .......... 99
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)-ATHY AND CLONMEL MODEL SCHOOLS-
Question, Major Saunderson; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) ...... .. 100
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-INTIMIDATION AT DROMORE, CO. CLARE-
Questions, Captain M'Calmont, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answers, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 101
J^IRELAND-ANTI-HOME RULE PETITIONS-Question, Mr. Sexton; Answer,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 102
EGYPT-THE EGYPTIAN EXILES-Question, Mr. Labouchere; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 103
CIVIL SERVICE WRITERS AND CLERKS-Question, Mr. Morgan Howard;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 103







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ March 29.] Page
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (SCOTLAND)-POLLING PLACES-LEGISLA-
TION-Questions, Mr. Macfarlane, Sir Herbert Maxwell; Answers, The
Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. .. 104
THE CROFTERS BILL-TRAMWAYS (SCOTLAND)-Question, Mr. Mark Stewart;
Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .... 104
GREENWICH AGE PENSIONs-Questions, Sir John Gorst; Answers, The Civil
Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duff) .... 105
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) BOGus OUTRAGE AT CASTLECAULFIELD,
Co. TYRONE CASE OF ROBERT CUDDY Questions, Mr. William
O'Brien; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 105
TRANSFER OF LAND AND HOUSE PROPERTY-LEGISLATION Question, Mr.
Gourley; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E.
Gladstone) .... .. .... 106
GRANTS OF MONEY TO THE ROYAL FAMILY A COMMITTEE-Question,
Mr. Howard Spensley; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr.
W. E. Gladstone) .... .. .. 106
PROCEDURE-UNOPPOSED RETURNS-Questions, Mr. Beresford Hope, Mr.
Raikes; Answers, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Childers) .... .. 107
PUBLIC BUSINESS-GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND-Ministerial Statement, The
First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .... 109

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-
Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill [Bill 1181-
Moved, That it be an Instruction to the said Committee that they have power to
extend the provisions of the Bill to other parts of Scotland,"-(Mr. M'Laren) .. 109
After debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 91, Noes 287;
Majority 196-(Div. List, No. 47.)
Order for Committee read :-Moved, That Mr. Speaker do now leave
the Chair" .... .. .... 121
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "no Bill will suffice to amend the tenure of land in the Highlands and Islands
which does not afford some pecuniary assistance towards that object in certain parts
of the Country,"-(Sir George Campbell,)-instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question: "-After debate, Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," again pro-
posed:- .. .... .. .. 137
After short debate, Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill considered in Committee [First Nightl .... 147
After long time spent therein, Committee report Progress; to sit again
upon Thursday.
Common Juries Remuneration Bill, [Bill 95]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. Crompton) .. 206
After short debate, Order discharged :-Bill withdrawn.
Marriages (Attendance of Registrars) Bill [Bill 121]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir -Richard
Webster) .. .. .. .. 210
Moved, That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(M1r. Illingworth:) -
After short debate, Motion agreed t :-Debate adjourned till Monday
next,







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
lMarch 29.1 Pags
Marriages (Hours of Solemnization) Bill [Bill 62]-
Bill, as amended, considered ... .. .. 218
Moved, That the Bill be now read the third time,"-(Mr. Carvell
Williams:)-After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read the third
time, and passed.

Public Health Acts (Improvement Expenses) Bill [Bill 7]-
Order for Committee read .. .. 219
Bill considered in Committee, and reported; to be printed, as amended
[Bill 1531; re-committed for Thursday 8th April.

MOTIONS.
-0--
FETTES SCHEME-MOTION FOR AN ADDIESS--
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying Her Majesty
to withhold Her consent to the Scheme of the Educational Endowments (Scotland)
Commission now lying upon the Table of the House for the management of the
Fettes Endowments, Edinburgh,"-(Mr. John Wilson, Edinburgh) .. .. 219
After debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 61, Noes 82;
Majority 21.-(Div. List, No. 51.)

Hyde Park Corner (New Streets) Bill-
Select Committee nominated :-List of the Committee ... 233
Prison Officers' Superannuation Bill- Ordered (Sir Edward Reed, Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 154] .... 234
Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill-Ordered (Mr. John Morley,'jMr. Henry H. Fowler);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 155] ...... 234
International and Colonial Copyright Bill-Ordered (Mr. Acland, Mr. Mundella,
Mr. Bryce, Mr. Osborne Morgan, Sir Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth); presented, and read
the first time [Bill 156] ........ 234
Intoxicating Liquors (Sale to Children) Bill-Ordered (Mr. Conybeare, Mr.
Theodore Fry, Mr. Cossham, Mr. Valentine, Mr. Allison, Mr. O. V. Morgan, Mr.
Channing) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 157] .... 234
Companies Act Amendment Bill- Considered in Committee:-Resolution agreed to,
and reported :-Bill ordered (The Lord Advocate, JMr. Solicitor General for Scotland);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 158] .... .. 234
LAMBETH AND OTHER WATER BILLS-
Select Committee nominated :-List of the Committee .... 234
[2.45.]

LORDS, TUESDAY, MARCH 30.
Lunacy Acts Amendment Bill (No. 37)-
House in Committee (on re-commitment) .... .. 235
Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Tuesday next;
and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 53.)

Idiots Bill (No. 46)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a,"-(The Lord Chancellor) .. 243
Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2" accordingly, and committed to a Committee
of the Whole House on Tuesday next.
VOL. CCCIV. [THIRD SERIES.] C







TABLE OF CONTENTS

[ffvrch 30.] Paq
NAVY-STATE OF THE NAVY-Question, Observations, Viscount Sidmouth,
The Earl of Ravensworth; Replies, The First Lord of the Admiralty
(The Marquess of Ripon), The Secretary of State for the Colonies
(Earl Granville) .. ... 243
Parish Churches Bill [H.L.]
Select Committee nominated:-List of the Committee .... 248
L6.0.]

COMMONS, TUESDAY, MARCH 30.
CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS (NORwICH CITY) .... 248
QUESTIONS.
-0-
PoST OFFICE (IRELAND)--TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT TELEGRAPH STATION
AT ROSSLEA, CO. FERMANAGH-Question, Mr. H. Campbell; Answer,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 250
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY DEFAULTING PENSIONERS CASE OF JOHN
DENASH-Question, Mr. Sexton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley).. .. .. .. 250
THE CURRENCY-BIMETALLISM-Question, Mr. J. F. Hutton; Answer, The
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .... 251
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-ELECTION OF GUARDIANS-MOUNTBELLEW UNION-
Question, Mr. Harris; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .... .. .. 252
PosT OFFICE-REGISTERED TELEGRAPHIC ADDRESSES-Questions, Mr. Lane,
Viscount Grimston; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) ...... 252
IRELAND LOANS TO LANDLORDS AND OCCUPIERS RETURN OF AMOUNTS
OUTSTANDING AND REMISSIONS-Question, Mr. Sexton; Answer, The
Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 253
MENAI BRIDGE-LETTING OF THE ToLLs-Question, Captain Verney; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 253
SCIENCE AND ART-BETHNAL GREEN MUSEUM-Question, Mr. Howell; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 254
TRADE AND COMMERCE THE NEWHAVEN AND DIEPPE BOATS-Question,
Admiral Field; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .......... 254
CRIMINAL LUNATICS-DISCHARGE OF STRAIN, WILSON, LONGMAN, AND
JARVIS FROM COLNEY HATCH-Question, Mr. Morgan Howard; An-
swer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) 255
MERCHANT SHIPPING BOATS OF PASSENGER SHIPS Questions, Captain
Price, Mr. Macfarlane; Answers, The President of the Board of Trade
(Mr. Mundella) .. 256
GREENWICH HOSPITAL SCHOOL-Questions, Captain Price; Answers, The
Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duff) .. .. 257
FRIENDLY SOCIETIES A ROYAL COMMISSION Question, Mr. Thorold
Rogers; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William
Harcourt) .... .... 257
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) ALLEGED ATTACK ON THE REV. MR.
KEARNEY, DROGHEDA-Question, Mr. De Cobain; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley); Question, Mr. Sexton [no
reply] .. ...... 258
THE ROYAL UNIVERSITY (IRELAND)-ELECTION TO THE SENATE-DELIVERY
OF VOTING PAPERS Question, Mr. Conway; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... .. 259







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
L areh 30.] Page
ALLOTMENTS EXTENSION ACT, 1883-THnE CHARITIES OF KIRTON AND
SWINESHEAD, LINCOLNSHIRE ACTION OF THE TRUSTEES Question,
Mr. Ingram; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. ...... .. 260

MOTIONS.
--- o-
PARLIAMENT-ORDER-BOARD OF SUPERVISION (SCOTIAND)-MOTION FOR
RETURNS-
Moved for, Returns of the names and designations of the members of the Board of
Supervision in Scotland, distinguishing such as are members ex officio; of the
number of meetings of the Board relating to the Poor Law held during the years
from 1876 to 1885, both inclusive; and, of the number of members present at each
such meeting (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 304, of Session 1876),"
(Mr. Preston Bruce) ........... 261
After short debate, Motion agreed to.

INTERNATIONAL PENNY POSTAGE-RESOLUTION-
Moved, That, in the opinion of this House, the time has arrived for the Government of
this Country to open negotiations with other Governments, with a view to the es-
tablishment of a Universal International Penny Postage system,"--(Mr. Henniker
Heaton) .... .. ** 261
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word Country," to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words to take the necessary steps with a view to the establishment of a Penny
Postage system throughout the British Empire,"-(Mr. James Rutton,)-instead
thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question : "-After debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Main Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 127, Noes 258; Ma-
jority 131.-(Div. List, No. 52.)

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND DISESTABLISHMENTT AND DISENDOWMENT)-RESO-
LUTION-
Moved, "That, in the opinion of this House, the Church of Scotland ought to be
Disestablished and Disendowed,"-(Dr. Cameron) .... 293
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words having regard to the declaration recently made by the First Lord of the
Treasury, with reference to the appointment of a Royal Commission on the subject
of Disestablishment in Scotland, to the effect that, in the opinion of Her Majesty's
Government, this important question of the continuance and circumstances of the
Established Church in Scotland should be left as much as possible to the spontaneous
action and consideration of the Country,' this House declines to entertain a proposal
for the Disestablishment and Disendowment of the Scottish Church until the wishes
of the people of Scotland in relation thereto shall have been ascertained,"-(Sir
Donald Currie,) --instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question : "-After debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Main Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 125, Noes 237; Ma-
jority 112.
Division List, Ayes and Noes .... .. 353
[12.15.1

LORDS, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 31.

Their Lordships met,-and the Royal Assent being given to three Bills
[House adjourned] L12.30.1







TABLE OF CONTENTS.


COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 31. Page

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-
Police Forces Enfranchisement Bill [Bill 3]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Henry
Selwin-Ibbetseon) ... .. 356
After debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and
committed for Monday next.
Quarter Sessions (Boroughs) Bill [Bill 371-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Mr. Powell
lilliams) .. .. .. .. .. 375
After debate, Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and
at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six
months,"-(Mfr. Hanbury.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'now stand part of the Question: "
-Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn :-Bill withdrawn.
Allotments and Small Holdings Bill [Bill 53]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Dr. Foster) .. 400
After debate, it being a quarter of an hour before Six of the clock, the
Debate stood adjourned till To-morrow.

MOTIONS.
-0-
School Board Elections (Scotland) Bill-Ordered (Mr. Shiress Will, Mr. Eugene
Wason); presented, and read the first time [Bill 159] .. 416
Religious Prosecutions Abolition Bill--Considered in Committee :-Resolution
agreed to, and reported:-Bill ordered (Mr. Courtney Kenny, Mr. Coleridge, Mr.
Crossley, Mr. Illingworth); presented, and read the first time [Bill 160] .. 416
[5.50.]

LORDS, THURSDAY, APRIL 1.
NEW PEERS .. .... .. .. 417
SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE-GREECE AND TURKEY--THE RUSSIAN FLEET-
Question, Viscount Cranbrook; Answer, The Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (The Earl of Rosebery) ...... 417
Lawof Evidence Amendment Bill (No. 44)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3","-(The Lord Bramwell) .. 417
After short debate, Motion agreed to:-Bill read 3* accordingly, and
passed, and sent to the Commons.

Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment (No. 3) Bill (No. 48)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2-,"-(The Lord Houghton) .. 419
After short debate, Motion agreed to ;--Bill read 2".

Electric Lighting Acts (1382) Amendment (Nos. 1, 2, and 3)
Bills (Nos. 25, 40, and 48)-
Moved, "That the Bills be referred to a Select Committee,"--(The
Viscount Bury) .... .. 421
After short debate, Motion agreed to:-Bills referred to a Select Com-
mittee accordingly.






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LApril 1.1] Page
Trees (Ireland) Bill (No. 42)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a,"-(The Lord President of the
Council, Earl Spencer) .. .. .. .. 426
After short debate, Motion agreed to:-Bill read 2. accordingly, and com-
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday the 12th of
April next.
POST OFFICE-THE METROPOLITAN POLICE-THE TELEGRAPHS-Question,
Earl Fortescue; Answer, The Postmaster General (Lord Wolverton) 428
[6.0.]

COMMONS, THURSDAY, APRIL 1.

Q QUESTIONS.


THE CIVIL SERVANTS OF THE CROWN-PRIVATE TRADING-Question, Sir
George Campbell; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir
William Harcourt) . 429
LAND PURCHASE (IRELAND) ACT, 1885-OPERATION OF THE ACT-Question,
Sir George Campbell; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) ... .. 430
IMPERIAL REVENUE, 1801-1840-PROPORTION OF TAXATION PAID BY IRELAND
-Question, Sir Joseph M'Kenna; Answer, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. .. 430
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) ACT, 1885-POSTAGE OF REQUISITION
FORMs-Question, Lord Ernest Hamilton; Answer, The Secretary to
the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) 431
THE CIVIL SERVICE-GRIEVANCES OF THE WRITERs-Questions, Sir Henry
Holland, Sir Herbert Maxwell; Answers, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 432
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-M-R. FRANK BROOK, OF BROOKBOROUGH, CO.
FERMANAGHI-Question, Mr. William Redmond; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ... .. 432
INLAND REVENUE-PROPERTY AND INCOME TAX--BUILDING SOCIETIES-
Question, Sir Julian Goldsmid; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer (Sir William Harcourt) ... 432
THE LAND COMMISSION (ENGLAND AND WALES)-ASHDOWN FOREST-QueS-
tion, Dr. R. McDonald; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Childers) ...... 433
SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE-GREECE AND TURKEY-THE RUSSIAN FLEET-
Questions, Mr. Bourke, Mr. Ashmead-Bartlett; Answers, The Under
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .... 434
POLICE SUPERANNUATION BILL-Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer,
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 435
EGYPT (FINANCE, &C.)-CONVERSION OF THE DAIRA AND DOMAIN LOANS-
Question, Mr. Dillon ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .... 435
ARMY (SOUTH AFRICA)-THE BARRACKS AT CAPETOWN-Question, Sir
Herbert Maxwell; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman) .. .... 436
GREENWICH AGE PENSIONS-MEMORIAL OF PENSIONERS-Question, Sir Wil-
liam Crossman; Answer, The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R.
W. Duff) .... .. .... 437
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-ELECTION OF GUARDIANS-ALLEGED MALPRACTICES
OF THE NATIONAL LEAGUE AT TRALEE-EULES OF DEBATE-QUESTIONS
-Questions, Mr. T. M. Healy, Mr. E. Harrington; Answers, Mr.
Speaker, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 437







TABLE OF CONTENTS

LApril 1.J Payg
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-THE LONDON SCHOOL BOARD ELECTION-SCALE
OF COSTS-Question, Mr. W. H. Smith; Answer, The Vice President
of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) ...... 439
CUSTOMS ESTABLISHMENTS-REDUNDANT CLERKS-Question, Mr. Dawson;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 440
STATE OF IRELAND-THE LOYALIST MEETING IN CORK-ALLEGED ASSAULT
ON MR. ROBERT WALSH, T.O.-Questions, Mr. John O'Connor (Tip-
perary, S.), Lord Ernest Hamilton; Answers, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .... 441
MERCHANT SHIPPING-LOSS OF THE OREGON," CUNARD LINER-Ques-
tion, Sir Henry Tyler; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade
(Mr. Mundella) ........ 442
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-ELECTION OF GUARDIANS-LURGAN UNION-ALLEGED
INTIMIDATION-Question, Mr. De Cobain; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ...... 443
ARTISTIC COPYRrIGT-LEGISLATION-Question, Mr. Agnew; Answer, The
President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .... 444
EVICTIONS (IRELAND)-DISTRESS IN CLARE ISLAND, CO. MAYO-Question,
Mr. Deasy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. .. .. 444
SUMMARY JURISDICTION ACT, 1879-Question, Sir John Gorst; Answer, The
Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 445
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-ELECTION OF GUARDIANS-MOIIILL UNION, CO.
LEITRIM-DISTRIBUTION OF VOTING PAPERS BY THE POLICE--Question,
Mr. Hayden; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. .. .... .. 445
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) -OVERCHARGES IN COLLECTION OF COUNTY
CESS BY MR. JOHN GARTLEY, KILCAR, CO. DONEGAL-Question, Mr.
Bernard Kelly; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. .. 446
COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC PETITIONS-THE REPORT-ALLEGED FORGERY OF
SIGNATURES TO PETITION FROM EAST CAVAN-Question, Mr. Clancy;
Answer, Sir Charles Forster; Question, Major Saunderson [no reply] 446
EMIGRATION (IRELAND)-THE DISTRESS IN THE WEST OF IRELAND-Ques-
tion, Mr. Dillon; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. ...... 447
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION-THE ROYAL COMMISSION-Question, Mr. Edward
Russell; Answers, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon
Playfair, Sir R. Assheton Cross .. .. 448
POOR LAW (IRELAND)--ELECTION OF GUARDIANS-DRUMFIN DIVISION, SLIGO
UNION-Questions, Mr. Sexton; Answers, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) . .. 448
PUBLIC OFFICES-THE NEW ADMIRALTY AND WAR OFFICE-Question, Mr.
W. H. Smith; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir
William Harcourt) .... .... 449
ARMY-SERVICE IN THE AUXILIARY FORCES-Question, Viscount Lewisham;
Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) 450
ARMY- ORDNANCE STORE DEPARTMENT Question, Viscount Lewisham;
Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) 450
PRISONS (ENGLAND AND WALES)-CANTERBURY GAOL-CASE OF WILLIAM
JOSLIN-Question, Mr. W. H. James; Answer, The Secretary of State
for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .... 450
FISHERIES (EAST COAST)--ENCROACHMENT OF BELGIAN TRAWLERS-Question,
Sir Edward Birkbeck; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr.
Hibbert) .. .. .. .... 451
TRADE AND COMMERCE-PUBLICATIONS OF THE BOARD OF TRADE-ISSUE TO
CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE Question, Mr. F. Hardcastle; Answer,
The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .... 451







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LA pril 1.] Page
CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACT, 1878-Question, Mr. Chaplin ; An-
swer, The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Heneage) .. 452
LITERATURE, SCIENCE, AND ART-SCULPTURES AT THE BRITISH MUSEUM-
Questions, Mr. Stuart-Wortley, Mr. Hanbury; Answers, The Secretary
to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) ... 452
COMMISSIONERS OF NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)-RESULTS EXAMINA-
TIONS AND FEEs-Questions, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answers, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... .. 453
ARMY-DEPOT OF THE RIFLE BRIGADE-Question, Mr. Tottenham; Answer,
The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. 454
ADMIRALTY-ADMINISTRATION OF THE DOCKYARDS Question, Mr. Watt;
Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. 455
PHOENIX PARK (DUBLIN)-THE NEW BARRACKS-Question, Mr. T. M.
Healy ; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. .... .. 456
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA-THE JOINT COMMITTEE-Question, Mr. Magniac;
Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 456
EDUCATION-APPOINTMENTS TO PROFESSORSHIPS-Question, Mr. Buchanan;
Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 457

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-0-
Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill [Bill 1181-
Bill considered in Committee [Proqress 29th March] [Second Night] .. 458
After long time spent therein, Committee report Progress; to sit again
upon Monday next.

Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill [Bill 155]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(The Chief Secretary
for Ireland, Mr. John Morley) .... 566
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time,
and committed for Monday next.

Prison Officers' Superannuation Bill [Bill 154]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Edward J. Reed) 576
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :- Bill read a second time,
and committed for To-morrow.

Copyhold Enfranchisement Bill [Bill 261-
Bill considered in Committee [Progress 23rd March] .. 577
After short time spent therein, Committee report Progress; to sit again
To-morrow.

MOTIONS.
-0o-
Bankruptcy (Office Accommodation) Act (1885) Amendment Bill-Ordered
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler); presented, and read the first time [Bill 161] .. 583
Prevention of Hydrophobia Bill-Ordered (3r. Macfarlane, Dr. Cameron, Mr. M'Iver,
Dr. Farquharson); presented, and read the first time [Bill 162] .... 583
[2.30.]







.TABLE OF CONTENTS.


LORDS, FRIDAY, APRIL 2. Page
PARLIAMENT-PRIVATE BILLS-STANDING ORDER, NO. 128-RESOLUTION-
Memorandum respecting Standing Order, No. 128. (No interest out of
capital to be paid on calls) laid on the Table.
Moved, That the same be printed,"--(The Earl of Redesdale, Chairman of
Committees) ...... 583
Motion agreed to :-Memorandum laid on the Table, and to be printed.
(No. 56.)
HARBOURS OF REFUGE (GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND)-ADDRESS FOR
RETURNs-Address for,
"Returns of monies advanced on loan within the last five years towards the construc-
tion and improvement of large and small harbours of refuge in Great Britain
and Ireland,"-(The Viscount Sidmouth) ...... 584
After short debate, Address agreed to.
COLONIES-MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS-
Mloved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for all papers addressed
to the Colonial Office during the last twelve months in favour of State-directed
colonization, as well as any papers addressed to the Colonial Office requesting that
official information for those who desire to become colonists should be supplied to
the post offices and local authorities throughout the country,"-(The Earl of
Harrowby) .... .. 587
After short debate, Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
POOR LAW-DEATH FROM OVER-FEEDING-Question, Viscount Barrington;
Answer, Lord Sudeley (for the Local Government Board) .. 594
[5.30.]

COMMONS, FRIDAY, APRIL 2.

CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS (IPSWICH) .. .. 596

QUESTIONS,
-0-
SEA AND COAST FISHERIES (IRELAND)-SCARCITY OF FISH ON THE NORTHERN
COAsT-Question, Mr. Mulholland; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley).... .. 597
BURIALS ALLEGED SCANDAL AT TARPORLEY Question, Mr. Carvell
Williams; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Childers) .. .. ... 597
STATE OF IRELAND-RIOTOUS PARTY PROCEEDINGS AT CALEDON, CO. TYRONE
-Questions, Mr. William O'Brien, Mr. Macartney; Answers, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 598
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-ALLEGED ASSAULT UPON AN EMERGENCY
MAN AT EDGEWORTHTOWN, Co. LONGFORD-Questions, Mr. Johnston;
Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 599
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) -ARSON AT LONDONDERRY-CASE OF MAR-
SHALL-Questions, Mr. John Redmond; Answers, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley); Question, Mr. Sexton [no reply] .. 600
LOTTERY ACT-SALE OF SWEETMEATS TO CHILDREN-Question, Mr. Thomas
Blake; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
hilders) .. ...... .. 601
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-ELECTION OF GUARDIANS-THE BANTRY UNION-
Question, Captain M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. .. 601
LAW AND JUSTICE (SCOTLAND)-EXCLUsION OF THE PUBLIC FROM A COURT
OF JUSTICE IN GLASGow-Question, Mr. M'Culloch; Answer, The Lord
Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .... 602






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LApril 2.J Page
MERCHANT SHIPPING-ADVANCE NOTES TO SEAMEN-Question, Mr. Norris;
Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 603
NAVY-ROYAL NAVAL ARTILLERY VOLUNTEERS-THE CAPITATION GRANT-
Question, Mr. Baden-Powell; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty
(Mr. Hibbert) .... .. 604
ELECTRIC LIGHTING--LEGISLATION-Question, Mr. Watt; Answer, The
President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 604
ADMIRALTY THE DIRECTOR OF NAVAL CONSTRUCTION- Question, Mr.
Howell; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert);
Observations, Lord George Hamilton .. .. 605
WALEs-LAND LEGISLATION-- Question, Sir John Jenkins; Answer, The
First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) 607
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-SIR EDWARD PORTER COWAN-Question, Mr.
Johnston; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E.
Gladstone) .. .... 607
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-MILITIA OFFICERS-Question, Mr. Howard
Vincent; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-
Bannerman) ...... .... 608

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-0-
SUPPLY-Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question pro-
posed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair: "-
FOREIGN TRADE COMPETITION- Resolution-Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "in the opinion of this House, the Government ought to consider the
desirability of appointing properly qualified Diplomatic Agents in all Foreign capitals'
or seats of Government, for the express purpose of promoting the extension of
British commerce,"--(Mr. M'Laren,)-instead thereof .. .. 609
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Original Question, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," again
proposed:-
POOR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)-DEPRESSION OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
-OUTDOOR RELIEF-Observations, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Childers) :-Short debate thereon .644
Motion, by leave, withdrawn :-Committee deferred till Monday next.
Contagious Diseases Acts Repeal (No. 2) Bill [Bill 147]-
Bill considered in Committee .. .. .. 645
Bill reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill [Bill 27]-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to
Question [10th March], "That the Bill be now read a second time."
And which Amendment was, to leave out the word "now," and at
the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"-
(Mr. Addison,)-instead thereof.
Question again proposed, That the word 'now' stand part of the
Question: "-Debate resumed .. .. .. 645
After short debate, Question put:-Tho House divided; Ayes 101, Noes
41; Majority 60.-(Div. List, No. 59.)
Infants Bill [Bill 139]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Jr. Attorney
General) .. 650
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :--Bill read a second time,
and committed for Monday next.
VOL. CCCIV. [THIRD SERIES.] L d







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ April 2. Page
Places of Worship Sites Bill [Bill 136J-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. J. E. Ellis) 652
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"-(M3r.
Reresford Hope.)
Question proposed, That the word now' stand part of the Question : "
-After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second
time, and committed for MAonday next.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday (Durham) Bill [Bill 74]
Bill considered in Committee .. .. 655
After short time spent therein, Bill reported, without Amendment; to be
read the third time upon Monday next.
Intoxicating Liquors (Sale to Children) Bill [Bill 157]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. Conybeare) .. 656
After long debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 132, Noes
115; Majority 17.-(Div. List, No. 60.)
Bill committed for Tuesday 13th April.
Parliamentary Franchise Bill [Bill 124]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Mr. Moulton) .. 697
Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Sir Henry James:)-
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to:-Debate adjourned till
Monday next.
ADMIRALTY AND WAR OFFICE-
Select Committee appointed, to re-consider the plans and proposals for an Admiralty
and a War Office: "-That it be an Instruction to the Committee to report whether
some or all of the existing buildings of the Admiralty*may not with advantage be
retained,-(Mlr. William Henry Smith.) [1.0.]

LORDS, MONDAY, APRIL 5.
ZEBEHR PASHA-RESOLUTION-
Moved, That the time has come when, under certain conditions, the presence of Zebehr
Pasha in the Sidan might prove valuable in the interests of Egypt and the pacifica-
tion of the Sidan provinces,"-(The Lord Ribblesdale) .. .. 703
After short debate, on Question ? Resolved in the negative.
AIRELAND-THE LEGISLATIVE UNION-PETITION OF GENERAL SYNOD OF THE
CHURCH OF IRELAND PRESENTED-
Moved, That the said Petition be read by the Clerk,"--(The Earl of
Courtown) .... .. .... 720
Motion agreed to :-Petition read accordingly, and ordered to lie on the
Table.
Compensation for Damages Bill (No. 50)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a,"-(The Paymaster General, Lord
Thurlow) .... .... 721
Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2" accordingly, and committed to a Committee
of the Whole House To-morrow. [6.0.]

COMMONS, MONDAY, APRIL 5.
Q U ESTIONS.
-0-
EvICTIONS (IRELAND)-TEMPLEPORT, Co. CAVAN-Question, Mr. Biggar;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ., 722







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ April 5.] Page
MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND) ACT-DISPENSARY DISTRICTS-THE ISLANDS
OF CLARE AND TURK-Question, Mr. Deasy; Answer, The Chief Secre-
tary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ...... 723
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-CO. ARMAGH--Questions, Mr. Blane; Answers,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 723
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-THE MASTER OF THE WORKHOUSE, CAVAN UNION-
Question, Mr. Blane; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .... .... 724
THE CHARITY COMMISSIONERS-PUBLIC CHARITIES AT BAMPTON-Question,
Mr. F. W. Maclean; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir
Lyon Playfair) .. .. 724
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-TELEGRAPII DEPARTMENT-STATION AT ROSSLEA-
Question, Mr. H. Campbell; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. 725
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND) HOWTII HARBOUR-Questions, Mr.
Clancy, Mr. T. M. Healy; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) .... .... 726
INDIA (BOMBAY)-MR. P. H. CAMA'S HOSPITAL-Question, Sir W. Guyer
Hunter ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred
Kay-Shuttleworth) ...... 727
POST OFFICE-THE POSTAL UNION-Question, Mr. Hutton; Answer, The
Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 728
PosT OFFICE-REMUNERATION OF RURAL POSTMEN-Question, Mr. Deasy;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 728
RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC BILL-RAILWAY PASSENGERS-Question, Sir
George Campbell ; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) ...... 729
LAW AND JUSTJOE (ENGLAND AND WALES)-EXCESSIVE SENTENCE-CASE OF
SARAH ANN BLACKMORE, DULVERTON, SOMERSETSHIRE-Question, Mr.
L. L. Cohen; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Childers) .. 730
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-COLONEL LLOYD, CLERK OF THE PEACE, CO.
MONAGHAN-Question, Mr. T. M. Healy; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 730
LAND COMMISSION COURT-TIE RENTAL OF IRELAND-QUestion, Mr. T. P.
O'Connor; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .... .. .. .. 731
POOR LAW (IRELAND) -ELECTION OF GUARDIANS-MOUNTMELLICK UNION-
MATTHEW S. CASSAN, SIIEFFIELD, QUEEN'S Co.-Question, Mr. Lalor;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 732
ADMIRALTY-PLUMBERS OF THE ROYAL NAVY-Question, Colonel Hughes-
Hallett; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. 733
ROYAL PARKS AND PLEASURE GARDENS-KEW GARDENS-EXTENSION OF
HOURS OF OPENING TO THE PUBLIC-Question, Mr. Macdonald Cameron;
Answer, Mr. Levesmn Gower (A Lord of the Treasury) .. 733
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-Da. HENRY, EX-J.P., Co. TYRONE-Questions,
Mr. D. Sullivan, Mr. T. M. Healy ; Answers, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. .. 74
STATE-AIDED OR DIRECTED E MIGRATIoN-Questions, Mr. Seton-Karr, Mr.
Baumann; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr.
Osborne Morgan) .. .... 734
SOUTH AFRICA-ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN STELLALAND-Question, AMr.
Baden-Powell; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies
(Mr. Osborne Morgan) .. ...... 736
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-HOUSE OF COMMONS-KITCHEN AND REFRESH-
MENT ROOMS-THE TARIFF-Question, Mr. Biggar; Answer, The Chair-
man (Sir William Hart Dyke) .... .. 737







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ April 5.] Page
AMETROPOLIS-THE DUKE OF YORK'S COLUMN-Question, Sir R. Assheton
Cross; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .......... 738
POST OFFICE-ST. PANCRAS DISTRICT POST OFFICE-" EXTRA DUTY "-
Question, Mr. Lawson; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) ........ 739
EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES)-ELEMENTARY EDUCATION-ADMISSION
OF CHILDREN TO SCHOOLs-Question, Sir Charles Forster; Answer, The
Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .... 739
THE ROYAL COMMISSION ON DEPRESSION OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY-THE
EVIDENCE-Question, Mr. Brocklehurst; Answer, The President of the
Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. .. .. 740
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-ELECTION OF GUARDIANS-TUBBERCURRY UNION-
Question, Captain M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 740
STATE OF IRELAND-POLICE PROTECTION-MR. ST. GEORGE, BALLINASLOE-
Question, Captain M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Mr. John Morley) .... 741
NAVAL PENSIONS-WILLIAM KEMPToN-Question, Mr. Leicester; Answer,
The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duff) .... 741
LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND)-MR. QUINN, CARNACALLY, CO. DOWN-
Question, Mr. H. Campbell; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .. .. 742
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-GALLERIES OF THIS HOUSE-MEMBERS OF COLO-
NIAL LEGISLATURES-Question, Dr. O'Doherty; Answer, Mr. Leveson
Gower (A Lord of the Treasury) .. .. 742
METROPQLIS-THE PARKS-IMPROVEMENT OF HYDE PARK-Question, Mr.
Cremer; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. .. .... .. 743
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-PENSIONS TO OFFICERS-CASE OF MR. JOHI BENSON,
Dur.ANAeHY-Questions, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answers, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 743
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-RIOTING AT CALEDON, Co. TYRONE-Ques-
tions, Mr. W. O'Brien, Colonel Waring; Answers, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 744
TRAMWAYS AND PUBLIC COMPANIES (IRELAND) ACT-THE WEST CLARE
RAILWAY-Questions, Captain M'Calmont, Mr. M. J. Kenny; Answers,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. 746
SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE-GREECE AND TURKEY-Question, Mr. Ashmead-
Bartlett; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) ...... .... 747
CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT-EXAMINING OFFICERS OF CUSTOMs-Question, Mr.
Puleston; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ...... .... 747
DWELLINGS FOR THE WORKING CLASSES-REMISSION OF PROPERTY TAX-
Question, Mr. Thorold Rogers; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... .. 747
ROYAL COMMISSION ON ACCIDENTS IN MINES-THE REPORT-Question, Mr.
A. J. Williams; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment (Mr. Childers) .. .... .. 748
CITY OF LONDON-SALARY OF THE COMMON SERJEANT-Questions, Mr. E.
Robertson, Sir Robert Fowler; Answers, The Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 749
PARLIAMENT SESSIONAL ORDERS NOTICE OF MOTION FOR THE ISSUE OF
A WRIT-Question, Mr. Lewis; Answer, The Attorney General (Sir
Charles Russell) .. .. ... 750
INDIA-THE BURMAH CROWN JEWELS-Question, Mr. Richard; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) .. 750







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[April 5.] Page
REMOVAL TERMS BURGHSS) (SCOTLAND) ACT (1881) AMENDMENT BILL-
Question, Mr. J. W. Barclay; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B.
Balfour) .. ...... .. 751
THE MERCHANT SERVICE-ENGLISH SEAMEN-Question, Mr. Macdonald
Cameron; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .. .. ...... 751
COMMONS AND OPEN SPACES--HAYLING COMMON-Question, Mr. Buxton;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Broadhurst) ...... .... 752
SOUTH AFRICA-BASUTOLAND- SALE OF SPIRITUOUS LIQUORS -Question, Mr.
M'Arthur; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr.
Osborne Morgan) .... .. 752
ARMY (IRELAND)-DEATH OF A SOLDIER IN THE BELFAST MILITARY HoS-
PITAL-Question, Mr. T. P. O'Connor; Answer, The Secretary of State
for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. 753
REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE-" THE SPENDING DEPARTMENTS "-Question,
Mr. Rylands; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E.
SGladstone) .. .... .. .. 754
PARLIAMENTARY AND MUNICIPAL REGISTRATION-Questions, Sir Julian
Goldsmid, Mr. Thorold Rogers; Answers, The Secretary of State for
the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .... 754
PARLIAMENT-PUBLIC BUSINESS-QUESTIONS RELATING TO THE CIVIL SER-
VICE, 1880-86-Questions, Mr. Leake, Mr. Puleston; Answers, The
First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .... 755
THE MERCHANT SERVICE-CHAIN CABLES AND ANCHORs-TESTING-Ques-
tion, Mr. Hickman; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade
(Mr. Mundella) .. .... 757
LAW AND JUSTICE (ENGLAND AND WALES)-" BRYCE V. RUSDEN "-Ques-
tion Mr. Cobb ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies
(Mr. Osborne Morgan) .... .. 758
LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND)-EJECTMENTS ON LORD MORLEY'S
ESTATE-Question, Mr. Biggar; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Mr. John Morley) ... .. 759
PARLIAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC BILL
-Question, Sir Joseph Pease; Answer, The President of the Board of
Trade (Mr. Mundella) .... .. 760
PARLIAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE -CROFTERS (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL
-Question, The Marquess of Stafford; Answer, The First Lord of the
Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. .... 760


ORDERS OF THE DAY.


Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill [Bill 1181-
Bill considered in Committee [ Progress 1st April] [Third Night] .. 761
After long time spent therein, Committee report Progress.
Moved, "That the Committee sit again To-morrow at Two of the clock,"
-(The Lord Advocate) .... ... .869
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.

Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill [Bill 1551-
Bill considered in Committee ........ 873
After some time spent therein, Bill reported; as amended, to be con-
sidered To-morrow.







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
April 5.] Page
Cape Race Lighthouse Bill [Bill 151]-
Bill considered in Committee .. ..893
After short time spent therein, Bill reported, without Amendment.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read the third time,"-(The Secretary
to the Board of Trade, Mr. C. T. D. Acland:)-Motion agreed to :-Bill
read the third time, and passed.
Bankruptcy (Office Accommodation) Act (1385) Amendment
Bill [Bill 161]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(ir. Henry
H. Fowler) .. 896
Motion agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow.
Infants Bill [Bill 139]-
Order for Committee read :--Moved, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair,"--(~ e Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, fr. Bryce) 897
Motion agreed to :-Bill considered in Committee.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday.
Police Forces Enfranchisement Bill [Bill 3]-
Order for Committee read :--Moved, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair,"-(Sir Henry Selwin-1bbetson) ...... 897
Motion agreed to :-Bill considered in Committee.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday (Durham) Bill [Bill 74]
Moved, That the Bill be now read the third time,"-(Mr. Theodore Fry) 898
Amendment proposed, to leave out the words now read the third time,"
in order to insert the word "re-committed,"-( Mr. Tomlinson,)-instead
thereof.
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question: "-After short debate, Amendment, by leave,
withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read the third time, and passed.

MOTIONS.
-o
Medical Act (1858) Amendment Bill-
iMoved, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend 'The Medical
Act, 1858,' "-(The Vice President of the Council, Sir Lvon Playfair) .. 898
Motion agreed to :-Bill ordered (Sir Lyon Play!fair, Mr. aMundella, The Lord
Advocate); presented, and read the first time [Bill 163.]
SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE--
Resolved, That whenever the House shall meet at Two of the clock, the Sittings of the
House shall be held subject to the Resolutions of the House of the 30th day of
April 1869,-(Mr. Arnold Nlorley.) L2.45 ]

LORDS, TUESDAY, APRIL 6.
Lunacy Acts Amendment Bill (No. 53)-
Amendments reported (according to order) .. .. .. 900
Bill to be read 3" on Friday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 64.)
Marriages (Hours of Solemnization) Bill (No. b2)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a,"--(The Lord MJonk-Breton) .. 905
After short debate, Motion agreed to:-Bill read 2" accordingly, and com-
mitted to a Committee of the Whole Hous' on Friday next.







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[April 6.] Pagy
Army (Annual) Bill (No. 55)-
Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee on the
said Bill,"-(The Under Secretary of State for War, Lord Sandhurst) .. 906
After short debate, Motion agreed to:-House in Committee.
Bill reported, without amendment; and to be read 38 on Thursday next.
Marriage with a Deceased Wife's Sister Bill [H.L.] Presented (The Duke of
Saint Albans); read 1l (No. 62) .. .. .. .. 907
Church Patronage Bill [H.L.]-Presented (The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury); read 1-
(No. 63) .. .. .... .. 907
[6.15.]
COMMONS, TUESDAY, APRIL 6.

MOT IONS.
-0-.
Commons Regulation (Stoke) Provisional Order Bill- Ordered (Mr. Broadhurst,
Mr. Secretary Childers); presented, and read the first time [Bill 164] .. 908
Commons Regulation. (Hayling) Provisional Order Bill-Ordered (Mr. Broad-
hurst, Mr. Secretary Childers); presented, and read the first time [Bill 165] .. 908
Commons Regulation and Inclosure (Totternhoe) Provisional Orders Bill-
Ordered (Mr. Broadhurst, Mr. Secretary Childers); presented, and read the first time
[Bill 166] .......... 908

Q QUESTIONS.
-o--
IRELAND-GOVERNMENT LOANS FOR IRISH PURPOSES, 1840-1886-Questions,
Mr. Albert Grey, Mr. Sexton, Mr. T. M. Healy; Answers, The Secre-
tary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) . 908
TRADE AND COMMERCE-THE MINERAL RESOURCES OF TEE COUNTRY--Qes-
tion, Sir Edward Watkin; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
SHenry H. Fowler) .. .. 910
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-CATHOLIC JURORS (MONAGHAN QUARTER
SESSIONs)-Question, Mr. T. M. Healy; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ... 910
COMMISSIONERS OF WOODS AND FORESTS-THE FOREST OF DEAN-Question,
Mr. T. Blake; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .... .. .. 911
LIGHTHOUSE ILLUMINANTS-THE EXPERIMENTS AT SOUTH FORELAND-
Question, Sir James Corry; Answer, The Secretary to the Board of
Trade (Mr. C. T. D. Acland) .. 911
PoOR LAW (IRELAND)-ELECTION OF GUARDIANs-ALLEGED INTIMIDATION OF
VOTERS AT KILVINE, CLAREMORRIS UNION-Question, Mr. Dillon; An-
swer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 912
ROYAL COMMISSION ON ACCIDENTS IN MINES-SPECIMENS OF MINERS' SAFETY
LAMPS-Question, Mr. Burt ; Answer, The Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. ... 913
CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT-OUTDOOR EXAMINING OFFICERS-Question, Captain
Cotton; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. .. .. .. 913
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-VENTILATION OF THIS HOUSE-Questions, Mr.
'::Duncombe, Mr. Ashmead-Bartlett; Answers, Mr. Leveson Gower (A
Lord of the Treasury) .. .. .. .. 914
ROYAL : PARKS AND PLEASURE GARDENS-KEW GARDENS INCREASED
SEATING ARRANGEMENTS-Question, Mr. Howard Spensley; Answer,
Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord of the Treasury) ,. 914







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

LApril 6.1 Page
TRADE MARxs-LEGISLATION-Question, Mr, Ashmead-Bartlett; Answer,
The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. C. T. D. Acland) .. 914
ADMIRALTY- EDUCATION OF NAVAL EXECUTIVE OFFICERS- Question,
Admiral Field; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) 915
SOUTH AFRICA AFFAIRS OF ZULULAND Question. Mr. Baden-Powell;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne
Morgan) ........ .. 915
NAVY-H.M.SS. "IMPERIEUSE" AND "WARSPITE "-Question, Sir John
Commerell; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. 916
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-BOGUS OUTRAGE AT CASTLECAULFIELD, CO.
TYRONE-CASE OF ROBERT CUDDY, JUNIOR-Question, Mr. Johnston;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 916
LOCAL BANKRUPTCY COURTS, IRELAND-Question, Mr. De Cobain; Answer,
The Attorney General (Sir Charles Russell) .... 917
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-SCHOOL ATTENDANCE Question, Sir Charles
Forster; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon
Playfair) ...... 917
PARLIAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-THE OATHS BILL-Question, Mr.
Serjeant Simon; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry
H. Fowler) ...... .. 918
THE IRISH CHURCH FUND-Question, Sir George Campbell; Answer, Mr.
Speaker .... .. .. 918

.ORDER. OF THE DAY..
-0-
Crofters Scotland (No. 2) Bill [Bill 118]-
Bill considered in Committee [Progress 5th Aprit] [Fourth Night] .. 918
After long time spent therein, it being ten minutes before Seven of the
clock, the Chairman left the Chair to report Progress; Committee to sit
again upon Friday.

THE RIGHT HON. W. E. FORSTER-Observations, The First Lord of the
Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone), Sir Michael Hicks-Beach .. 976
The House suspended its Sitting at Seven of the clock.

The House resumed its Sitting at Nine of the clock.
[House counted out] [9.5.]

COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 7.
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-MEMBERS' SEATS IN THIS HousE-Observations,
Mr. Mitchell Henry; Question, Mr. Macfarlane; Answer, Mr. Speaker 978

SOTIO N.
-0--
IPSWICH WRIT-
Moved, That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out
a new Writ for the electing of Two Members to serve in this present Parliament for
the Borough of Ipswich, in the room of Henry Wyndham West, esquire, one of Her
Majesty's Counsel learned in the Law, and Jesse Collings, esquire, whose Election
hath been determined to be void,"-(The Secretary to the Treasury, Mr. Arnold
Morley) ...... .... 979
Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(3Mr. Brand:)-After
short debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 16, Noes 175;
Majority 159.-(Div. List, No. 69.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ April 7.] Page

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-
Church Patronage Bill [Bill 4]-
lMoved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. Leatham) 989
After long debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time,
and committed for Wednesday next.
Waterworks (Rating) Bill [Bill i17 1-
Moeved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"--( r. G. Balfour) .. 1027
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"-(Mr.
Addison.)
Question proposed, That the word 'now stand part of the Question:"
-After short debate, Moved, That the Debate be now adjourned,"-
(Mr. Jackson:)-Question put, and agreed to:-Debate adjourned till
Tuesday 25th May.
Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill [Bill 155]-
Bill, as amended, considered .... .. 1030
Bill read the third time, and passed.

MINEs-ACCIDENTS IN COAL MINEs-Questions, Mr. Arthur O'Connor, Mr.
Tomlinson; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Broadhurst) ..... 1031

NEw WRITs-
Resolved, That, in all cases where the Seat of any Member has been declared void on the
ground of corrupt practices or illegal practices, no Motion for the issue of a New
Writ shall be made without two days' previous Notice in the Votes, and that such
Notice be considered before Orders of the Day and Notices of Motions," -- (Air.
Attorney General.)
Metropolitan Fire Brigade Expenses Bill-Ordered (Mir. IKimber, Mr. Vanderbyl);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 167] .... 1031
Friendly Societies (Transmission of Money) Bill-Ordered (Viscount Curzon, Sir
E. Birkbeck, Mr. Fellowes, Sir John Kennaway, Mr. Tomlinson) : presented, and read
the first time [Bill 168] .... .... 1031
Metropolitan Police (Stations) Bill-Ordered (17r. Broadhurst, Mr. Secretary Childers,
Mr. Henry H. Fowler); presented, and read the first time [Bill 169] .. 1032
[5.55.]
LORDS, THURSDAY, APRIL 8.
Lunacy (Vacating of Seats) Bill (No. 47)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2-,"-(The Lord Balfour of Ilurleiqh) 1032
Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2- accordingly, and committed to a Committee
of the Whole House To-morrow.
Prison Officers' Superannuation Bill (No. 61)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2-,"-(The Paymaster General, Lord
Thrlow) .. .. .. .. 1033
Motion agreed to:-Bill read 2- accordingly, and committed to a Committee
of the Whole House To-morrow.
Compensation for Damages Bill (No. 50)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3%,"-(The Paymaster General, Lord
Thurlow) .. .. 1033
SMotion agreed to.
YOL. CCCIV. [wTrI, slils.] [ e







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

LApril 8.1 Page
Compensation for Damages Bill-continued.
On Question, That the Bill do pass?
Amendments made; Bill passed and sent to the Commons, and to beprinted,
as amended. (No. 68.) [4.45.]

COMMONS, THURSDAY, APRIL 8.
CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS (KENNINGTON DIVISION OF THE BOOUIon OF
LAMBETH)- .... .. .. 1034
MOTIONS.
-o
PARLIAMENT-ORDERS OF THE DAY-
Moved, That the Notice of Motion relating to the Government of Ire-
land have precedence of the Orders of the Day,"-(Milr. Gladstone) .. 1035
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.
'Government of Ireland Bill [FIRsT NIGHT]-
Moved, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the provision for the future
Government of Ireland,"-(M2r. Gladstone) ...... 1036
Moved, That the Debate be now adjourned,"-- Mr. J. Chamberlain :)-
-Motion agreed to :--Debate adjourned till To-morrow.
ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-0-
International and Colonial Copyright Bill IBill 156]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-( Mr. Bryce) .. 1142
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted for Thursday next.
Drowned Persons (Discovery and Interment) Bill [Bill 123]-
Bill, as amended, considered .. .. ... 1144
Bill to be read the third time upon Wednesday next.
MOTIONS.
-0 -
NATIONAL PROVIDENT INSURANCE-
Select Committee nominated:-List of the Committee .. .. 1145
Church Sites (Compulsory Powers epeal) Bill Ordered (Mr. Francis Powell,
Mr. John Talbot, Mr. Addison); presented, and read the first time [Bill 171] .. 1145
[12.45.]
LORDS, FRIDAY, APRIL 9.
Burgh Police and Health (Scotland) Bill (No. 28)-
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee on the said
Bill,"-(The Earl of Algin) .... ... 1145
Moved, That it is inexpedient that the House should so resolve itself until such time as
the measure promised by Her Majesty's Government for the establishment of county
government boards has been presented to Parliament, in view of the possible changes
that may thus be effected in the administration of the police force in Scotland,"-
(The Earl of Galloway.)
Amendment negatived :-House in Committee.
Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Tuesday next;
and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 69.)
ARMY (EDUoATION)-ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGES, SANDHURST AND WOOL-
wICII-REPORT OF BOARD OF VISITORs-Question, Observations, Viscount
Enfield; Reply, The Under Secretary of State for War (Lord Sand-
burst) ., 1150






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ April 9.] Page
Contagious Diseases Acts (Repeal) (No. 2) Bill (No. 58)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2","-( The Under Secretary of State for
War, Lord Sandhurst) ........ 1151
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2' accordingly, and com-
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
Lunacy Acts Amendment Bill (No. 64)-
Third Readingput of to Monday next .. ., 1154
Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill (No. 66)-
THE RIGHT HOON. W. E. FORSTER-
On the Order of the Day for the Second Reading of the Poor Relief
(Ireland) Bill,
The Lord President of the Council expressed the regret of himself and
his Colleagues on the death of the Right Hon. William Edward
Forster, formerly Chief Secretary for Ireland.
Earl Cowper, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland when Mr. Forster held the
Office of Chief Secretary, expressed his concurrence in this eulogy of
the deceased.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2","-(The Lord President of the Council,
Earl Spencer) .. .. .. 1155
After short debate, Motion agreed to --Bill read 2A accordingly, and com-
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next. I 6.15.1

COMMONS, FRIDAY, APRIL 9.
Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
POOn LAW (IRELAND)-DEPORTATION OF PAUPERS FROM SCOTLAND-CASE
OF MRS. JANE CARROLL-Question, Mr. Donal Sullivan; Answer, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 1158
THE THAMES CONSERVANCY BOARD-FERRY AT GREENWICH-Question, Mr.
Ernest Denison; Answer, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord of the Treasury) 1158
ARREARS or RENT (IRELAND) ACT, 1882-CASE OF MR. TEMIPLEMAN, AGENT
TO MRu. ARMSTRONG Questions, Mr. Dillon, Mr. Tottenham; An-
swers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1169
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-CAPTAINS OF MILITIA SERVING AT DEPSTS-
Question, Mr. Ashmead-Bartlett; Answer, The Secretary of State for
War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. .. 1160
LITERATURE, SCIENCE, AND ART-THE SCULPTURES IN THE BRITISH MUSEUM
-Question, Mr. Ashton; Answer, Sir John Lubbock .... 1160
COMMISSIONERS OF NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)-PUPIL TEACHERS-
Question, Mr. Peter M'Donald; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Mr. John Morley) .. ...... 1161
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-TIE MONAGHAN JURY PANEL- Question,
Mr. Dillon; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) ....... .1161
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)--"LLOYD V. SHAW "-Question, Mr. Dillon;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1162
EMIGRANTS TO THE COLONIEs-AssISTED PASSAGES-Question, Mr. Ban-
mann; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr.
Osborne Morgan) .... 1162
SOUTH AFRICA-ZULULAND-USIBEPu-Question, Mr. Baumann; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) 1163
POST OFFICE (TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT)-PREPAYMENT OF MESSAGES TO TIIE
CONTINENT-Question, Dr. Tanner; Answer, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) ... .. 1164







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[April 9.1 Page
PUBLIC MEETINGS (IRELAND)-ATTENDANCE OF CIVIL SERVANTS-MR. GEORGE
HILL SMITH-Question, Mr. Alexander Blane; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 1164
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-HOUSE OF COMMONS-SAFETY MATCHES IN THE
SMOKING ROOM-Question, Mr. Pyne; Answer, Mr. Leveson Gower (A
Lord of the Treasury) .... .. 1165
BUILDING SOCIETIES ACT, 1874-ADVANCES ON PROPERTY IN IRELAND BY
BUILDING SOCIETIES-Question, Mr. O'Neill; Answer, The Chief Secre-
tary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ...... 1165
MERCANTILE MARINE-THE EMPLOYMENT OF FOREIGN SAILORS-Question,
Mr. Addison; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .... .. .... 1166
INDIA-THE CINCHONA BARK TRADE-Question, Mr. Lewis Melver; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred Kay-
Shuttleworth) .. ...... 1166
ARMY AUXILIARYY FORCES)-THE MILITIA AND YEOMANRY-VACANT COM-
MIssIONs-Question, Colonel Waring ; Answer, The Secretary of State
for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .... 1667
NAVY-EGYPTIAN MEDALS FOR THE ROYAL MARINE BATTALION--Question,
Captain Price; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) 1167
THE SUGAR REFINERS-DEPUTATION TO THE BOARD OF TRADE-Question,
Mr. Kimber; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .. .. .... .. 1168
GOLD AND SILVER-HALL-MARKING WATCHES-Question, Mr. Kimber; An-
swer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 1168
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-DONEGAL BOARD OF GUARDIANS- Questions, Mr.
Bernard Kelly, Mr. T. M. Healy; Answers, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. .... 1169
NAVAL ENGINEER STUDENTS-REPORT OF THE DIRECTOR OF NAVAL EDUCA-
TION-Question, Sir Thomas Brassey; Answer,. The Secretary to the
Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. ...... 1170
LAW AND JUSTICE (WALES)-WELSH-SPEAKING JUDGES-Question, Mr.
W. Abraham (Glamorgan, Rhondda); Answer, The Secretary of State
for the Home Department (Mr. Childers).... .. 1171
COPYRIGHT-THE BERNE CONFERENCE-Question, Mr. Agnew; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 1172
BELGIUM-RECENT DISTURBANCES-Question, Mr. Addison; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 1172
LITERATURE, SCIENCE, AND ART-ANTIQUITIES AT TIE BRITISH MUSEUM-
Question, Mr. W. F. Lawrence; Answer, The Secretary to the Trea-
sury (Mr. Henry H Fowler) ...... 1173
PARLIAMENT-GALLERIES OF THIS HOUSE-ACCOMMODATION FOR COLONIAL
MINISTERS AND MEMBERS OF LEGISLATURES-Question, Mr. Baden-
Powell; Answer, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord of the Treasury) .. 1174
TRADE AND COMMERCE-COMMERCIAL REPORTS OF CONSULS GENERAL AND
CoNsuLs-Question, Mr. Lawrence Baker; Answer, The Under Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) ... 1174
ARMY-CASE OF SERGEANT THOMAS MACKIE, CANTEEN SERGEANT AT FORT
GEORGE, N.B.-Question, Mr. Fraser-Mackintosh; Answer, The Secre-
tary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .... 1175
LAW AND JUSTICE (SCOTLAND)-MALICIOUS MISCHIEF-CASE OF WILLIAM
STOKES AND WILLIAM MACDONALD, DUTBIL Question, Mr. Fraser-
Mackintosh; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. 1175
NAVY-STATE OF THE NAVY-Question, Mr. Howell; Answer, The Secre-
tary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. .... 1176
SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE- BULGARIA-- Question, Mr. Ashmead-Bartlett;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr.
Bryce) ...... .. 1177







TABLE OF CONTENTS,
[-April 9.] Page
POOR LAw (ENGLAND AND TVALES)-BOARDING-OUT OF PAUPER CHILDREN-
Question, Mr. William Davies; Answer, The President of the Local
Government Board (Mr. Stansfeld) .. 1177
IRELAND-THE QUEEN'S COLLEGE, BELFAST-Question, Mr. Alexander
Blane; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1178

ORDERS OF THE DAY-ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS-MINISTERIAL
STATEMENT-
Standing Order No. 20, appointing the Committee of Supply, to be the
First Order on Friday, read .. .. 1179
Moved, That the said Standing Order be suspended,"--(Tie First Lord
of the Treasury, Mr. W. E. Gladstone :)-After short debate, Motion
agreed to.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-0-
Government of Ireland Bill [ADJOURNED DEBATE] [SECOND NIGHT]-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [8th April:]-
Question again proposed :-Debate resumed .. 1181
Afte'r'long debate, Moved, That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Lord
Randolph Churchill:)-After further short debate, Question put, and
agreed to :-Debate further adjourned till Monday next.
Copyhold Enfranchisement Bill I Bill 26]-
Bill considered in Committee [Progress 1st April] .. 1279
After short time spent therein, Bill reported; as amended, to be con-
sidered upon Tuesday next. [1.0.]

LORDS, MONDAY, APRIL 12.
Trees (Ireland) Bill (No. 42)-
House in Committee (according to Order) .. 1284
Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Thursday next;
and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 72.)
Army (Annual) Bill (No. 55)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3',"-( The Under Secretary of State for
War, Lord Sandhurst) ..... 1284
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 3", and passed.
Marriages (Hours of Solemnization) Bill (No. 52)-
House in Committee (according to Order) .... 1285
An Amendment made; the Report thereof to be received To-morrow;
and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 73.)
GREAT BRITAIN--CULTIVATION OF TOBACCO--Question, Lord Harris; An-
swer, Lord Sudeley (for the Treasury) .... 1286
Electric Lighting Acts (1332) Amendment (Nos. 1, 2, & 3)
Bills (Nos. 25, 40, & 48)-
Select Committee nominated:-List of the Committee .. 1287
Moved, That all petitions presented before the 15th instant against the said Bills be
referred to the Committee, and that the petitioners have leave to be heard before the
Committee by their counsel, agents, and witnesses in support of the allegations of
their petitions,"-(The Lord Grimtthorpe.)
Amendment moved,
To leave out all the words after the first (" Committee ") and insert (" and that the
Committee have leave to hear such of the petitioners as they think fit by their counsel,
agents, and witneses,"-(The Earl of Camperdozwn.)






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[April 12.] Page
Electric Lighting Acts (1882) Amendment (Nos. 1, 2, 6 3) Bills-continued.
After short debate, Amendment moved,
To leave out (" before the 15th instant ") and insert (" on or before the first sitting day
after the recess at Easter,")-(The Lord loughton.)
After short debate, on Question ? agreed to:-Motion, as amended,
agreed to.
Ordered, That all petitions presented on or before the first sitting day after the recess at
Easter against the said Bills be referred to the Committee, and that the Committee
have leave to hear such of the petitioners as they think fit by their counsel, agents,
and witnesses.
PRIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER No. 128)-(No INTEREST OUT OF CAPI-
TAL TO BE PAID ON CALLS UNDER RAILWAY BILLS)-
Mloved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire whether it is expedient to
amend Standing Order No. 128, and, if so, in what respect; and That no Bill
containing provision for payment of interest out of capital during construction of
works be read a second time before the Report of the said Committee has been
laid upon the Table,"-(The Lord Houghton) .. .... 1291
Motion agreed to; and ordered accordingly.
Sporting Lands Rating (Scotland) Bill (No. 36)-
House in Committee (according to Order) ... .. 1291
An Amendment made; the Report thereof to be received To-morrow.
Labourers (Ireland) Acts Amendment Bill (No. 51)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2',"-(The Lord Fits Gerald) ... 1292
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2" accordingly.
PARLIAMENT-ADJOURNMENT-THE EASTER HOLIDAYS-0bservation, The
Secretary of State for the Colonies (Earl Granville) .... 1295
[7.15.J

COMMONS, MONDAY, APRIL 12.
CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS (TOWER HAMLETS, STEPNEY DIVISION)-Certi-
ficate and Report of the Election Judges .. 1296

Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
THE METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS--THAMES CROSSINGS-Questions, Mr.
Ritchie; Answers, The Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works
(Sir James M'Garel-Hogg) .. .. 1297
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-RELIGIOUS STATISTICS OF PROMOTIONS-Ques-
tion, Mr. T. M. Healy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) ...... 1298
CHARITABLE TRUSTS-LEGISLATION-Question, Mr. Macdonald Cameron;
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Childers) .... .. .. 1299
ROYAL PARKS 'AND PLEASURE GARDENS-KEW GARDENS-Question, Mr.
Macdonald Cameron; Answer, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord of the
Treasury) ........ 1299
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS-LIsTS OF VOTERS-ST. PANCRAS PARISH--
Question, Mr. Baggallay; Answer, The President of the Local Govern-
ment Board (Mr. Stansfeld) .. .. 1300
SEA AND COAST FISHERIES (SCOTLAND)-THE FISHERMEN OF BALLANTRAE-
DAMAGE TO NETS, &C. BY BEAM TRAWLERS-Question, Mr. Wason;
Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .... 1301
POOR LAW (SCOTLAND)-DEATI FROM EXPOSURE OF ANN MACKINNAN, AT
DERRAIG, ISLE OF MULL-Question, Mr. Macfarlane; Answer, The
Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) ....... 1301







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LApril 12.1 Page
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-DISTRICT INSPECTOR DUNNE, Co. MONAGHAN
-Question, Mr. T. M. Healy ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Mr. John Morley) .. .. .. .. 1302
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-THE POLICE BARRACK AT KILLEAGH, CO. CORK
-Question, Mr. Lane; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) ...... ... 1303
MUNICIPAL AND PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS-POST OFFICE SERVANTS-
Question, Mr. A. J. Balfour; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. ..... .. 1303
JUDICATURE ACT (IRELAND)-COURT FEES-Question, Mr. Biggar; Answer,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. 1304
LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACTS-THE RATHDRUM BOARD OF GUARDIANS-CASE
OF PETERB GIBSON-Questions, Mr. W. J. Corbet; Answers, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 1304
ARMY (PENSIONERS)-CASE OF JOHN GORMAN, OF MALLOW- Question, Mr.
W. O'Brien; Answer, The Financial Secretary, War Department (Mr.
Herbert Gladstone) .... .. 1305
NAVY-TORPEDO BOATs-Question, Mr. Gourley; Answer, The Secretary
to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .... 1306
NAvY-H.M.S. "ALBATROSS "-EXPLOSION OF A NORDENFELT GUN-Ques-
tion, Lord Charles Beresford; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty
(Mr. Hibbert) ... 1306
LIGHTHOUSES-REGULATIONS, JANUARY 29-Question, Mr. Macfarlane; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. C. T. D. Acland) .. 1306
PooR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)-EMIGRATION OF ORPHAN AND DESERTED
CHILDREN-Question, Mr. Seton-Karr; Answer, The President of the
Local Government Board (Mr. Stansfeld) .... 1307
LAW AND POLICE-TREATMENT OF PRISONERS, DURHAM-Question, Mr.
Milvain; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Ohilders) ........ 1308
LAW AND POLICE-SUNDAY TRADING IN THE EAST OF LONDON-Question,
Mr. Shirley ; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Childers) ...... .. 1309
ARMY-GRIEVANCES OF QUARTERMASTERS-Question, Sir Thomas Esmonde;
Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) 1309
ARMY CHELSEA HOSPITAL ARMY PENSIONERS Question, Captain
M'Calmont; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-
Bannerman) .. ... .. 1310
PORTUGAL-ARREST OF MISSIONARIES IN MADEIRA-Question, Admiral
Field; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr.
Bryce) ... .. .. .. 1310
SOLVENCY OF THE IRISH CHURCH FUND-Questions, Sir George Campbell;
Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 1311
INLAND REVENUE-AsSISTANTS OF EXCISE-Question, Mr. Lawson; Answer,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 1312
FISHING AND FORESHORES (SCOTLAND)-THE RETURN-Question, Mr.
Macfarlane; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .... .... 1312
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-THE DEBATE ON THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND
BILL-Questions, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, Mr. Labouchere; Answers,
The First Lord of the Tpasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 1313
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-MIEMBERS' SEATS IN THIS HOUSE-Questions,
Mr. Bartley, Mr. T. M. Healy, Mr. Mitchell Henry; Answers, Mr.
Speaker, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 1315
MR. HOWELL AND MR. CAVENDISH BENTINK--Personal Explanation, Mr.
Howell; Observations, Mr. Cavendish Bentinck ,, ,, 1316







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LApril 12. Page
ORDER OF THE DAY.

Government of Ireland Bill [ADJOURNED DEBATE] [THIRD NIGHT]-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [8th April:] -
Question again proposed :-Debate resumed .... 1316
After long debate, Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Sir
William Hareourt:)-Question put, and agreed to:-Debate further
adjourned till To-morrow.
MOTIONS
-0-
Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) Bill-Ordered (MTr. Broadhurst,
Mir. Secretary Childers); presented, and read the first time [Bill 172] .. 1416
Local Government Provisional Orders Bill-Ordered (Mr. Broadhurst, Mr. Secretary
Childers) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 173] .... 1416
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill Ordered (Mr. Broadhurst,
3Mr. Secretary GCilders) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 174] .. 1417
Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 2) Bill-Ordered (Mr.
Broadhurst, Mr. Secretary Childers) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 175] .. 1417
Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 3) Bill-Ordered (Mr.
Broadhurst, Mr. Secretary Childers) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 176] .. 1417
Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 4) Bill-Ordered (Mr.
Broadhurst, Mr. Secretary Childers) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 177] .. 1417
Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 5) Bill-Ordered (Mr.
Broadhurst, Mr. Secretary Childers) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 178] .. 1418
Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 6) Bill- Ordered (Mdr.
Broadhurst, Mr. Secretary Childers); presented, and read the first time [Bill 179] .. 1418
County Courts (Ireland) Bill-Ordered (Mr. Small, Mr. James E. O'Doherty, Mr.
Maurice Healy, Mr. Reynolds, Mr. O'Bea); presented, and read the first time [Bill 180] 1418
[12.45.]
LORDS, TUESDAY, APRIL 13.
EASTERN RoUMELIA-Question, The Marquess of Salisbury; Answer, The
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (The Earl of Rosebery) .. 1419
Burgh Police and Health (Scotland) Bill (No. 69)-
Amendments reported (according to Order) .. .. 1420
Further Amendments made; and Bill to be read 3' on Thursday next.
IRELAND (REPRESSION OF CRIME)-MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS-
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for a Return, from 1830
to the present time, of all coercion Bills (by whatever title they may be called) passed
by Parliament, and by whom they were proposed: Also, a Return of agrarian crime
committed 18 months previous to, and 18 months after, the passing of the said Acts,"
-(The Lord Oranmore and Browne) .... .. .. 1421
After short debate, Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn. [5.0.]

COMMONS, TUESDAY, APRIL 13.
QUESTIONS.
-o-
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-CLERI OF THE PEACE, LONDONDERRY-
Question, Mr. T. M. Healy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .... .. 1424
Poon LAW (IRELAND)-BELFAST UNION WORKHOUSE-ABSENCE OF OFFICERS
FRon DUTY-Question, Mr. Alexander Blane; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ,, ,, ,. 144







TABLE'-OF CONTENTS.
LApril 13.1 'Page
COMMISSIONERS OF NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)-SCOHOOL ACCOMMODATION
AT CAIRNDAISY, Co. LONDONDERRY Question, Mr. T. M. Healy;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1425
BUILDING, &C. SOCIETIES-LOITERY BALLOT-Question, Mr. Seale-Hayne;
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Childers) ..... 1426
PRISONS (ENGLAND AND WALES)-THE NEW PRISON AT NORwICr--Ques-
tion, Mr. Colman ; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Childers) .... 1427
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-TIIE TELEGRAPH OFFICE IN THIS HOUSE-Ques-
tion, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord of
the Treasury) .... .. 1427
POST OFFICE -- THE PARCEL POST--PAY OF CARRIERS-Question, Sir
Thomas Esmonde; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) .... ... 1428
PUBLIC OFFICES-THE NEW ADMIRALTY AND WAn OFFICE-Question, Mr. T.
Blake; Answer, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord of the Treasury) .. 1428
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT SCHOOL EXAMINATIONS Question, Colonel
Gunter; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon
Playfair) .. ...... 1429
MERCHANT SHIPING-- Loss OF THE ENTERPRISEE" Question, Mr.
Esslemont; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. 1429
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (IRELAND)-TIIE SCIENCE AND ART DIRECTORY-
RULE 12-Question, Mr. Bernard Kelly; Answer, The Vice President
of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) ...... 1430
WEST INDIA ISLANDS-ST. VINCENT GRAMMAR SCHOOL-Question, Mr.
Edmund Robertson; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the
Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) .... 1430
DISTRESS IN THE WESTERN ISLANDS (SCOTLAND)-Question, Mr. T. Blake;
Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. 1432
ARMY-WAR BALLOONS-Question, Sir Robert Fowler; Answer, The Secre-
tary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. .. 1433
LAW AND JUSTICE-REWARDS FOR DISCOVERY OF CRIME-Question, Mr.
Shirley; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Childers) ...... 1433
BURIALS-ALLEGED SCANDAL AT TARPORLEY-Question, Mr. Carvell Wil-
liams; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Childers) ...... .. .. 1433
LAW AND JUSTICE (ENGLAND AND WALES)-SEVERE SENTENCES-CASE OF
ABIGAIL BIRD Question, Mr. William Saunders; Answer, The
Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 1434
MERCHANT -SHIPPING-ROBBERY OF FOREIGN SEAMEN AFTER BEING PAID OFF
-Question, Captain Verney; Answer, The President of the Board of
Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. ... .. 1435
PRISONS (ENGLAND AND WALES)-CLERKS IN LOCAL PRIsONS-Question,
Mr. Bartley; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ....... 1436
STRIKES AND LABOUR ORGANIZATIONS IN THE UNITED STATE--Question,
Mr. Paulton; Answer, The, Under Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs (Mr. Bryce) ........ 1436
CIVIL SERVICE VOLUNTEERS-Question, Lord Algernon Percy; Answer, The
Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry I. Fowler) .. .. 1437
METROPOLIS-CITY OF LONDON CoURT-Question, Lord Algernon Percy;
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Childers) .... .. .. 1437
VOL. CCCIV. [THIRD SERIES.] L f







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[~pril 13.] Page

MOTION.
-o-
NOTICES OF MOTIONS AND ORDERS OF THE DAY-SALE AND PURCHASE OF
LAND (IRELAND) BILL-
Moved, "That the Order of the Day relating to the Government of Ireland have
precedence of the Notices of Motions and the other Orders of the Day,"-(-(r.
Gladstone) .......... 1438
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-
Government of Ireland Bill-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [8th April:]-
Question again proposed :-Debate resumed . 1439
After long debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill ordered (Mr. Glad-
stone, Mr. Secretary Childers, Mr. John Morley, Mr. Attorney General);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 181.1
Police Forces Enfranchisement Bill [Bill 3]-
Bill considered in Committee.. .. .. .. 1550
After some time spent therein, Committee report Progress; to sit again
To-morrow.
Copyhold Enfranchisement Bill [Bill 261-
Bill, as amended, considered .. .. .. 1563
After short debate, Bill read the third time, and passed.
REFRESHMENT CHARGES IN THE HOUSE OF COMIIONS--
Select Committee appointed, "to inquirefinto the Refreshment Charges and Arrange-
ments of the House,"--(Mr. Biggar.) [2.45.]

COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14.
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL-
Second Reading deferred from Thursday 6th till Monday 10th May .. 1568
CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS (GLOUCESTER COUNTY, SOUTHERN DIVISION)-
Certificate and Report of the Election Judges ... 1568

QUESTION.
-o-
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (SCOTLAND)-EDUCATION OF CHILDREN OF TRAVEL-
LING TINKERS-Question, Mr. Jacks; Answer, The Lord Advocate
(Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. .. .. 1569

ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-0-
Police Constables' Pensions Bill [Bill 28]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Henry Selwin-
Ibbetson) .. .. .. .. 1570
After short debate, Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word "That to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "statutory pensions granted by Parliament to the Police ought not to be
provided by imposing fresh burdens on the ratepayers,"-(Mr. Stanley Leighton,)--
instead thereof.







,TABLE OF CONTENTS.
_April'14.j Page
Police Constables' Pensions Bill-continued.
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After further short debate, Moved, "That the De-
bate be now adjourned,"-(Sir Henry Selwin-lbbetson :)-Question put,
and agreed to :-Debate adjourned till Tuesday 4th May.

Land Cultivation Bill LBill 71]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Mr. Bradlaugh) .. 1582
After debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn:-Bill withdrawn.

Solicitors' Annual Certificate Duty Bill [Bill 133]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Mr. O'Hea) .. 1612
Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Mr. Henry H. Fowler :)
-Question put, and agreed to :-Debate adjourned till To-morrow.

Beer Adulteration (No. 3) Bill [Bill 59]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. Quilter) .. 1612
Debate adjourned till Wednesday 12th May.

MOTIONS.
-o---
Medical Act (1858) Amendment Bill-Ordered (Mr. Morgan Howard, Sir Trevor
Lawrence, Mr. Tomlinson, Mr. Addison) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 183] 1612

Fires Prevention (Metropolis) Bill-Ordered (3[r. Howard Spensley, Colonel Duncan,
Mr. Spicer, Mr. Isaacs); presented, and read the first time [Bill 184] .. 1612

Quarry Fencing Bill--Ordered (Mr. Thomas Blake, Mr. Conybeare, Mr. Burt, Mr. Cobb,
Mr. Abraham (Glamorgan, Ihondda); presented, and read the first time [Bill 185] .. 1613
[5.50.1


LORDS, TEIURSDAY, APRIL 15.

PRIVATE BILLs (STANDING ORDER No. 128)-
Select Committee nominated:-List of the Committee .. .. .. 1613
Lunacy Acts Amendment Bill (No. 64)-
Bill read 3" (according to Order) .. 1613
On Motion, That the Bill do pass: "-After short debate, Bill passed,
and sent to the Commons.
Bankruptcy (Agricultural Labourers' Wages) Bill (No. 70)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2","-(The Earl of .arrowby) .. 1614
Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2" accordingly, and committed to a Com-
mittee of the Whole House.

IRELAND SPECIAL PROTECTIVE AND REPRESSIVE CRIMINAL LEGISLATION-
MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS-
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for a Return, from 1830
to the present time, of all special protective and repressive criminal legislation
applicable to Ireland (by whatever named called), with the dates and names of pro-
posers : Also a Return (so far as may be practicable) of all crimes, specifying con-
spiracy, sedition, murder, offences against the person, agrarian offences, arson, in-
timidation, &c., committed 12 months next before, and next after, the passing of the
Act,"-(The Lord Oranmore and Browne) .... .* 1614
After short debate, Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn. [5.30.]







.TABLE OF CONTENTS.

COMMONS, THURSDAY, APRIL 15. Page

QUESTIONS.
-0o-
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-LETTER CARRIERS-CASE OF SAMUEL LYONS -
Question, Sir Thomas Esmonde; Answer, The Secretary to the Trea-
sury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. 1617
EDUCATION (IRELAND)-ST. GEORGE'S INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL, LIMERICK-
SQuestion, Mr. H. J. Gill; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .... .. .. 1619
LAW AND JUSTICE-CASE OF ABIGAIL BIRD-Question, Mr. Shirley; An-
swer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) 1619
PoST OFFICE (IRELAND)-POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS AT ROCKCIIAPEL, CO. CORK
-Question, Mr. Flynn; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) .... .... 1620
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-ATTENDANCES-TIIE ENGLISH AND SCOTCH CODES
-Question, Mr. Macfarlane; Answer, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .... 1620
POOR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)-ELECTION OF GUARDIANS-NOTTINGHAM
-Question, Mr. Conybeare; Answer, The President of the Local
Government Board (Mr. Stansfeld) .. 1621
CIVIL SERVICE-EMPLOYMENT 'o DISCHARGED SOLDIERS, SAILORS, AND
MARINES-Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, The Secretary to
the Treasury (Mr. Arnold Morley) ...... 1622
LAW AND JUSTICE-THE GLASGOW EXPLOSION-PATRICK DUNN-Question,
Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Childers) ... 1622
INLAND REVENUE-BILL STAMPS-Question, Mr. Baden-Powell; Answer,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. '.. 1623
EGYPT-DISPOSAL OF THE SUAKIN-BERBER RAILWAY MATERIAL-Question,
Mr. John O'Connor (Kerry, S.); Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley). ...... 1623
THE WATCH TRADE HALL-MARKING OF WATCH OASES Question, Mr.
Kimber; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) 1624
PoST OFFICE (TELEGRAMS)--INSUFFICIENTLY ADDRESSED TELEGRAMS--QueS-
tion, Mr. Houldsworth; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) .... 1624
ARMY-COMPULSORY RETIREMENT OF MAJORS Question, Lord Algernon
Percy; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-
Bannerman) .. ...... 1625
THE ARMS ACT (IRELAND)-Question, Mr. Lewis; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 1626
SPAIN-COMMERCIAL NEGOTIATIONS-Question, Mr. Baden-Powell; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 1627
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-SANITARY CONDITION-SEWER GAS Question,
Mr. Hanbury; Answer, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord of the Treasury) 1627
PUBLIC OFFICES-TIE NEW ADMIRALTY AND WAR OFFICE-Question, Mr.
T. Blake; Answer, Mr. Leveson Gower (A Lord of the Treasury) .. 1627
RAILWAYS (SCOTLAND)--THE GIRVAN AND PORTPATRICK RAILWAY- QUeS-
tion, Mr. H. F. H. Elliot; Answer, The President of the Board of
Trade (Mr. Mundella) ..... 1628
NAvY-ARMED CRUISERS AND TRANSPORTS-Question, Mr. Forwood; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. .. 1629
REVENUES AND ENDOWMENTS OF RELIGIOUS BODIES-Questions, Mr. Morgan
Howard, Mr. Picton; Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr.
W. E. Gladstone) ...... 1629
BUSINESS OF TIIE HOUSE-CROFTRES (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL-Questions,
Mr. A. J. Balfour, Sir George Campbell. Lord Randolph Churchill;
Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 1630







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[April 15.] Page
HOUSE OF COMMONS-REFRESHMENT CHARGES AND ARRANGEMENTs-Obser-
vations, Sir William Hart Dyke; Reply, The First Lord of the Trea-
sury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .... 1631
Sm THOMAS ERSKINE MAY, K.C.B., CLERK OF THE HOUSE OF COMIoNS-
Letter received by Mr. Speaker from the Right Hon. Sir Thomas
Erskine May, K.C.B., the Clerk of this House .. 1631
PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1881 Observations, Mr. Lewis;
Reply, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley :) -
Short debate thereon ... .. 1634

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
1-o-
WAYS AND MEANS-considered in Committee-FINANCIAL STATEMENT-
(1.) Moved, That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, the Duties of
Customs now chargeable upon Tea shall continue to be levied and charged on and
after the first day of August, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-six, until the
first day of August, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-seven, on the importation
thereof into Great Britain or Ireland (that is to say) : on
Tea the pound Sixpence.
(2.) That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be charged,
collected, and paid for the year which commenced on the sixth day of April, one
thousand eight hundred and eighty-six, in respect of all Property, Profits, and Gains
mentioned or described as chargeable in the Act of the sixteenth and seventeenth
years of Her Majesty's reign, chapter thirty-four, the following Duties of Income
Tax (that is to say) :
For every Twenty Shillings of the annual value or amount of Property, Profits,
and Gains chargeable under Schedules (A), (C), (D), or (E) of the said Act, the
Duty of Eight Pence;
And for every TwentyJShillings of the annual value of the occupation of Lands,
Tenements, Hereditaments, and Heritages chargeable under Schedule (B) of the
said Act,-
In England, the Duty of Four Pence;
In Scotland and Ireland respectively, the Duty of Three Pence;
Subject to the provisions contained in section one hundred and sixty-three of the Act
of the fifth and sixth years of Her Majesty's reign, chapter thirty-five, for the
exemption of persons whose income is less than One Hundred and Fifty Pounds, and
in section eight of "The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1876," for the relief of.
persons whose income is less than Four Hundred Pounds.
(3.) That it is expedient to amend the Laws relating to the Inland Revenue and
Customs,"-(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer) .. .. .. 1637
After long debate, Resolutions agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrowo; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill [Bill 1181--
Bill considered in Committee [Progress 5th April] [ Fifth Night .. 1716
After some time spent therein, Committee report Progress; to sit again
To-morrow.

Post Office Sites Bill [Bill 1481-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. C. R. Spencer) 1747
Motion agreed to:-Bill read a second time, and committed to a Select
Committee :-Committee to consist of Five Members, Three to be
nominated by the House and Two by the Committee of Selection.
Ordered, That all Petitions against the Bill presented two clear days before the
meeting of the Committee be referred to the Committee; that the Petitioners praying
to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, or Agents, be heard against the Bill, and
Counsel heard in support of the Bill.
Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
Ordered, That Three be the quorum.







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
| April 15.] Pagm
Metropolitan Police Stations Bill [Bill 169]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(The Under Secre-
tary of State for the Iome Department, 3Mr. Broadhurst) .. 1748
Motion agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow.
International and Colonial Copyright Bill [Bill 157]-
Order for Committee read:-Moved, That Mr. Speaker do now leave
the Chair,"-(The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Mr.
Bryce) ... .. 1748
After short debate, Motion agreed to:-Bill considered in Committee.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday 6th May.

Infants Bill [Bill 139]-
Bill considered in Committee [Progress 5th April] .... 1750
Moved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit
again,"--(ir. Ince:)-After short debate, Motion agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Companies Acts Amendment Bill [Bill 1581-
Bill considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment .. 1751
Bill read the third time, and passed.

TITHE RENT-CHARGE (EXTRAORDINARY) AMENDMENT BILL-
Select Committee nominated :-List of the Committee ...... 1751

MO TIONS.
-0---
Cottagers' Allotment Gardens Bill-Ordered (3ir. Chaplin, Sir William Hart Dyke,
Colonel Harcourt, Viscount Curzon, Mr. Charles Hall); presented, and read the first
time [Bill 186] .. ........ 1751
Terms of Removal (Scotland) Bill-Ordered (The Lord Advocate, Mr. Solicitor General
for Scotland) ; presented,'and read the first time [Bill 187] .... 1752
Returning Officers' Charges (Scotland) Bill-Ordered (The Lord Advocate, Mr.
Solicitor Generalfor Scotland); presented, and read the first time [Bill 188] .. 1752
Assistant County Surveyors (Ireland) Bill-Ordered (Mr. Small, Mr. Marum, Mr.
Conway, Mr. O'Hanlon) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 189] .. 1752
[1.45.]

LORDS, FRIDAY, APRIL 16.
PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS-
Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 92. and 93. be suspended; and that the time for
depositing petitions praying to be heard against Private and Provisional Order
Confirmation Bills, which would otherwise expire during the adjournment of the
House at Easter, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after
the recess.

PRIsONs (IRELAND)-DISCONTINUANCE OF NAAS GAOL-Question, Observa-
tions, The Earl of Milltown, The Earl of Longford; Replies, The Secre-
tary of State for India (The Earl of Kimberley) .. .. 1752
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND-Observations, Lord Denman .... 1754
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Public Health Act) Bill
[H.L.]-Presented (The Earl of Kimberley) ; read 1-, and referred to the Examiners
(No. 83) ..... .. .. 1754
[5.0.]






TABLE OF CONTENTS.


[COMMONS, FRIDAY, APRIL 16. Page

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
-o-
Cricklewood, Eilburn, and Harrow Road Tramways Bill (by Order)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Charles Forster) 1755
Question put, and agreed to.
Moved, "That the Bill be committed,"-(Sir Charles Forster.)
Amendment proposed,
To leave out the word "committed," in order to add the words "referred to a Select
Committee, Five to be nominated by the House, and Four by the Committee of Selec-
tion,"-(Mr. T. I. Bolton,)-instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the word committed' stand part of the Ques-
tion: "-After short debate, Question put, and agreed to:-Bill com-
mitted.
North Metropolitan Tramways (No. 1) Bill (by Order)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Charles Forster) 1764
Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Mr. T. IH. Bolton:)-
After short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question put:-Bill read a second time, and committed.

Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
BURMAI-SUPPLY OF W ITrwoRTH GuNs-Question, Mr. Gregory; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for India (Mr. Stafford Howard) .. 1765
ADMIRALTY-THE ROYAL MARINEs-Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .... 1765
TRANSFER OF PROPERTY OF NONCONFORMIST BODIES Question, Mr. Jones-
Parry; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Childers) .......... 1766
PRISONS (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1877-DISCHARGING OF PRISONERS AT BARLINNIE
Question, Mr. Baird ; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) 1766
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-" NAYE V. FINNIGAN AND FINNIGAN "-Ques-
tion, Mr. Macartney; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) ...... 1767
EDUCATION (IRELAND)-INDUSTRIAL AND REFORMATORY SCHOOLS-TIPPERARY
INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL-Question, Mr. Dillon; Answer, The Chief Secre-
tary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 1768
THE DIPLOMATIC SERVICE-CONSULAR APPOINTMENTS-Question, Mr. James
Hutton; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr.
Bryce) ... .... 1768
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND) MR. FRANK BOOK, BROOKBOROUGH, Co.
FERMANAGH-Question, Mr. William Redmond; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. .. 1769
MERCHANT SHIPPING SEAMEN IN THE PORT OF LONDON Question, Sir
Robert Fowler; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .... ... .. 1769
PoST OFFICE (IRELAND)-THE ATIIENRY AND TUAM DAY MAIL-Question,
Colonel Nolan; Answer, Mr. C. R. Spencer (Groom in Waiting) .. 1770
MERCHANT SHIPPING-TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH THE GOODWIN
SANDs-Question, Mr. Fitzgerald; Answer, The President of the Board
of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .... .... 1770
EGYPT-DISPOSAL OF THE SUAKIN AND BERBER RAILWAY MATERIAL-QueS-
tion, Mr. John O'Connor (Tipperary, S.); Answer, The Surveyor
General of Ordnance (Mr. Woodall) .. 1770







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[April 16.] Page
THE ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-RETURN OF COST OF EACH RANK -
Question, Mr. T. M. Healy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) ...... .. 1771
SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE-TURKEY AND GREECE ACTION OF THE POWERS
-Question, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach; Answer, The First Lord of the
Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 1772
PARLIAMENT-PUBLIC BUSINESS-Questions, Mr. Carbutt, Mr. Macfarlane,
Sir John Gorst; Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E.
Gladstone) .. .. .. .. ..772
REPRINT OF THE ACT or UNIoN-Questions, Mr. Raikes, Mr. Arthur
O'Connor, Mr. O'Kelly, Mr. John O'Connor (Kerry, S.), Lord Ran-
dolph Churchill, Mr. Labouchere; Answers, The First Lord of the
Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .... 1773

MO TI0 ONS.
-0-
THE RiIGHT HON. SIR THOMAS ERSKINE MAY, K.C.B., CLERK OF THIS
HOUSE--ESOLUTION-
Moved, That Mr. Speaker be requested to convey to the Right Honourable Sir Thomas
Erskine May, K.C.B., on his retirement from the office of Clerk of this House, the
assurance of its cordial respect and regard, together with its warm acknowledgment
for the prolonged and singularly valuable services which, alike by his pen, his action,
and his ever ready advice, he has rendered to this House, and to its Members, in the
conduct of their business; joining therewith the expression of its earnest hope that
the retirement rendered necessary by his indefatigable exertions may serve effectually
for the restoration of his health,"-(Mr. Gladstone) .... 1774
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to, nemine contradicente.
ORDERS OF THE DAY-
Standing Order No. 20, appointing the Committee of Supply to be the
first Order of Friday, read.
Ordered, That the said Standing Order be suspended.
Ordered, That the Notice of Motion for leave to bring in a Bill relating to the Sale and
Purchase of Land in Ireland have precedence of the Orders of the Day,-(Mr.
Gladstone.)
Sale and Purchase of Land (Ireland) Bill-
lMoved, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make amended provision for the Sale
and Purchase of Land in Ireland,"--(The First Lord of the Treasury, Mr. IV. E.
Gladstone) .. .. .. .... 1778
After long debate, Question put, and agreed to:-Bill ordered (iMr.
Gladstone, .3r. Secretary Childers, Mr. John Morley, Mr. Attorney
General); presented, and read the first time. [Bill 193;]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-
Infants Bill [Bill 1391-
Bill considered in Committee [Progress 15th April] 1867
After short time spent therein, Bill reported: as amended, to be considered
upon Monday next.
Highways Acts Amendment Bill [Bill 1491-
Order for Committee read:-- 7/- I, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair,"--(Mr. Duckham) ....1877
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word That," to the end of
the Question, in order to add the words this House will, upon this
day six months, resolve itself into the said Committee,"-(Mr. brunner,)
-instead thereof.






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[April 16.] Pag6
Highways Acts Amendment Bill-continued.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question: "-After short debate, Question put:-The House
divided; Ayes 59, Noes 38; Majority 21.-(Div. List, No. 75.)
Main Question put, and agreed to :-Bill considered in Committee .. 1878
After short time spent therein, Bill reported; as amended, to be con-
sidered upon Monday 3rd May.

MO TIONS.
o--
WAYS AND MEANS-
Customs and Inland Revenue Bill Resolutions [April 15] reported, and agreed to:
-Bill ordered (Mr. Courtney, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, MrI. Henry H. Fowler);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 190] .. .. *. 1880
National Debt Bill-Ordered (mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Henry H. Fowler);
presented, and read the first time [Bill 191] .. ... 1880
[1.45. )


VOL. CCCIV. [THIRD SERIES.]


fI g 1


















LORDS.



REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR SCOTLAND.
FRIDAY, MARCH 26.
Earl of Mar, v. Viscount Strathallan.
Earl of Morton, v. Lord Saltoun.

NEW PEERS.
THURSDAY, APRIL 1.
The Right Honourable Richard de Aquila Grosvenor (commonly called Lord
Richard de Aquila Grosvenor), created Lord Stalbridge of Stalbridge in
the county of Dorset.
The Right Honourable William Baron Kensington, in that part of the United
Kingdom called Ireland, created Baron Kensington of Kensington in the
county of Middlesex.




COMMONS.

-0-

NEW WRITS ISSUED.
MONDAY, MARCH 29.
For Borough of Barrow-in-F'urness, v. David Duncan, esquire, void Election.
TUESDAY, MARCH 30.
For Halifax, v. The Right Hon. James Stansfeld, President of the Local Govern-
ment Board.

FRIDAY, APRIL 2.
For the City of Norwich, v. Harry Bullard, esquire, void Election.
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 7.
For the Borough of Ipswich, v. Henry Wyndham West, esquire, one of Her
Majesty's Counsel learned in the Law, and Jesse Collings, esquire, void
Election.







NEW WRITS ISSUED-continued.
TUESDAY, APRIL 13.
For North-East Lancashire (Clitheroe Division), v. Sir Ughtred James Kay-Shuttle-
worth, baronet, Chancellor of the Duchy and County Palatine of Lan-
caster.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14.
For Bradford (Central Division), v. The Right Honble. William Edward Forster,
deceased.

NEW MEMBERS SWORN.
MONDAY, MAR 29.
Chester County (Altrincham .Division)-Sir William Ounliffe Brooks, baronet.

MONDAY, APRIL 5.
Halifax-Right Honble. James Stansfeld.

THURSDAY, APRIL 8.
Flint County-Samuel Smith, esquire.
.Norwich-Samuel Hoare, esquire.
Barrow-in-Furness-William Sproston Caine, esquire.

FRIDAY, APIIL 16.
Borough of Ipswich-Charles Dalrymple, esquire.















HANSARD'S


PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

IN THE

FIRST SESSION OF THE TWENTY-THIRD PARLIAMENT OF THE

UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND,

APPOINTED TO MEET 12 JANUARY, 1886, IN THE FORTY-NINTH

YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN VICTORIA.



THIRD VOLUME OF SESSION 1886.


IRELAND-POLICY OF THE GOVERN-
HOUSE -OF LORDS, 3MENT.--QUESTION.
Friday, 26th March, 1886. VISCOUNT CRANBROOK: I beg to
Sask the Secretary of State for the Colo-
Snies, Whether it is his intention, or the
MINUTES.]-PuC LI BILLs-First Reading- intention of any other Member of the
Consolidated Fund (No. 2) *; Electric Light- Government, to make a statement in
ing Act (1882) Amendment (No. 3)* (48). this House on the 8th April as to the
Second Reading -Drainage and Improvement of Irish policy of the Government, similar
Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order (38);e to the statement which we understand
Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment
(No. 1)* (25); Electric Lighting Act (1882) will be made in the House of Commons
Amendment (No. 2)* (40). on that day ?
Second Reading Committee negative Third THE SECRETARY or STATE FOR
Reading-Consolidated Fund (No. 1),* and TIE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE):
pass ed. It is not my intention to do so on that
REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR SCOT- day.
LAND. LORD ASHBOURNE: Does the noble
Earl intend to do so on an early
The Clerk of the Crown in Chancery date ?
delivered his certificate that the Earl of
Mar and the Earl of Morton had been [No reply.]
elected Representative Peers for Scot- LORD ASHBOURNE: If not on that
land in the room of the Viscount Strath- date, will the noble Earl do so on an-
allan and the Lord Saltoun deceased, other date ?
VOL. CCCIV. [THIRD SERIES.] B















HANSARD'S


PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

IN THE

FIRST SESSION OF THE TWENTY-THIRD PARLIAMENT OF THE

UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND,

APPOINTED TO MEET 12 JANUARY, 1886, IN THE FORTY-NINTH

YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN VICTORIA.



THIRD VOLUME OF SESSION 1886.


IRELAND-POLICY OF THE GOVERN-
HOUSE -OF LORDS, 3MENT.--QUESTION.
Friday, 26th March, 1886. VISCOUNT CRANBROOK: I beg to
Sask the Secretary of State for the Colo-
Snies, Whether it is his intention, or the
MINUTES.]-PuC LI BILLs-First Reading- intention of any other Member of the
Consolidated Fund (No. 2) *; Electric Light- Government, to make a statement in
ing Act (1882) Amendment (No. 3)* (48). this House on the 8th April as to the
Second Reading -Drainage and Improvement of Irish policy of the Government, similar
Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order (38);e to the statement which we understand
Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment
(No. 1)* (25); Electric Lighting Act (1882) will be made in the House of Commons
Amendment (No. 2)* (40). on that day ?
Second Reading Committee negative Third THE SECRETARY or STATE FOR
Reading-Consolidated Fund (No. 1),* and TIE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE):
pass ed. It is not my intention to do so on that
REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR SCOT- day.
LAND. LORD ASHBOURNE: Does the noble
Earl intend to do so on an early
The Clerk of the Crown in Chancery date ?
delivered his certificate that the Earl of
Mar and the Earl of Morton had been [No reply.]
elected Representative Peers for Scot- LORD ASHBOURNE: If not on that
land in the room of the Viscount Strath- date, will the noble Earl do so on an-
allan and the Lord Saltoun deceased, other date ?
VOL. CCCIV. [THIRD SERIES.] B






3 Electric Lightinq Act (1882) {LORDS A


EARL GRANVILLE: I have no doubt
that it will be my duty to do so on
some day or other-at least, I hope so.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882)
AMENDMENT (No. 1) BILL.
(The Lord Rayleigh.)
(No. 25.) SECOND READInK.
Order of the Day for the Second Read-
ing read.
LonD RAYLEIGH, in moving that
the Bill be read the second time, said,
that it was commonly but erroneously
supposed that electric lighting was a re-
cent invention. The are light was, in
fact, discovered at the beginning of the
century by Davy, and might be recog-
nized by its powerful character, which
by contrast seemed to be intensely blue,
but was really less blue than the day-
light. Subsequently, the present Mr.
Justice Grove, then an ardent experi-
mentalist, showed how a reading-lamp
could be constructed by passing electri-
city through a spiral wire at a red heat.
The difficulty in the practical develop-
ment of the art lay almost solely in the
production of the electricity, which at
that time could only be produced by
batteries. But by the introduction of
the dynamo machine the art of electric
lighting attained a greater and greater
development; and at the present time the
dynamo had so nearly attained perfection
that 9S per cent of the whole mechanical
power was converted into the electrical
form. The next difficulty was in em-
ploying electricity on a small scale; but
the discoveries, almost simultaneous, of
Edison and Swan, went far towards
overcoming these difficulties. A period
of speculation ensued. Electricity was
supposed to be rapidly superseding gas,
and gas shares accordingly became much
depreciated in value. Then various
schemes came before Parliament fnr the
supply of the electric light, and the Act
of 1882 was passed, which was termed
"An Act for facilitating and regu-
lating" the use of electricity for
lighting and other purposes. But it
was proposed to effect this object by
more oppressive regulations than were
ever before applied to an industrial
undertaking. The burden of com-
plaint lay in the 27th clause, by which
Local Authorities should have the option
of compulsorilypurchasing undertakings
for electric lighting after 21 years. In


the event of disagreement as to the
price, the question was to be submitted
to arbitration; and it was provided that
the price to be paid for the undertaking,
plant, &c., should be its value at the
time of purchase-that was, when the
machinery might be much worn or even
obsolete-but without any addition in
respect of compulsory purchase, or of
goodwill, or of any profits. What was
still more surprising was that when the
Bill wasfirst introduced into the House of
Commons the period was seven years. It
was, however, extended by the Select
Committee of that House to which the Bill
was referred to 14 years, and their Lord-
ships further enlarged the time to 21
years. If the terms of purchase had
been reasonable the mere shortness of
time might not have constituted an ob-
stacle to the working of the clause.
But no capitalist would care to invest
his money in electrical enterprises on
such terms as the Act imposed. Those
terms, in effect, were that if the enter-
prize failed the loss should fall exclu-
sively on the capitalist; but if it should
be successful the Local Authorities
should have power to step in and buy
the concern on utterlyinadequate terms.
How could such a clause permit the
proper development of any scheme of
electric lighting? The question arose,
With what motive was the Act made so
stringent ? It had been suggested that
the object really was to put a stop to
electric lighting; and it was, perhaps,
true that the powerful interest of the
Gas Companies arrayed against electric
lighting enterprises had influenced the
result too much. But he was unwilling to
believe that Mr. Chamberlain, who was
then President of the Boardof Trade, was
actuated by anything else than a desire
for the public interest. It was a diffi-
cult and wide question how far Local
Authorities could usefully enter into in-
dustrial enterprises of this kind. He
would not enter into that question,
though he would remark that the elec-
tric light did not stand in the same
position as water supply, which was an
absolute necessity, or even as the manu-
facture of gas, of which almost as much
was known as could be known. At the
time the Act was passed it was gene-
rally supposed that the electric light
would be a great success, and the Board
of Trade desired that the benefit of that
successehouldbesharedbythepublic,and


Antenenn~~ot (No. 1) B3ilb. 4






5 Electric Lighting Act (1882) {MaARCH 26, 1886} Amendment (No. 1) Bill. 6


that it should not go entirely to private
Companies. It seemed to him that there
was too much jealousy at the present
day of a private Company making large
profits. Most undertakings were more
or less of a speculative character; and
if some were great successes others
were miserable failures, so that one
ought to be balanced against the other.
The promoters of the Act, in endeavour-
ing to advance the public interest, really
inflicted great injury on the public by
preventing them from having any chance
of getting the electric light for many
years. Although he believed a great
mistake was made at the time of the
passing of the Act in 1882, he was
willing to admit that the subject was one
of considerable difficulty. The Bill was
not seriously debated in either House of
Parliament; but it had the advantage of
consideration by a Select Committee of
the House of Commons, under the Presi-
dency of Mr. E. Stanhope. That Com-
mittee took the evidence of experts, and
heardcounselwho representedthevarious
interests involved. He must go further
and admit that some of the witnesses on
behalf of electric lighting examined be-
fore that Committee seemed to think
that 21 years might possibly suffice as a
minimum period, not, however, in con-
junction with such terms of purchase at
the end of the period as those embodied
in the Act. From another point of view
he thought they need not altogether re-
gret that something in the nature of a
wet blanket was thrown by the Act over
the feverish speculation at that time.
But during the last two years he thought
the Act had done a great public injury.
Experience had been gained in many
mills and large ships which had been
lighted by electricity; and the last
two years would have been a very
favourable time in other respects. La-
bour had been cheap, and capital could
easily have been obtained on reasonable
terms. As soon as it became clear that
matters were at a deadlock, endeavours
were naturally made to obtain some re-
laxation of the very stringent provisions
of the law. At the suggestion of Mr.
Joseph Chamberlain, who was then at
the Board of Trade, a Committee was ap-
pointed, of which a noble Lord opposite
(Lord Thurlow) was Chairman, and
among its Members were Sir Frederick
Bramwell and others, who were well
qualified to advise in matters of that kind.


The present Bill was, in fact, the outcome
of the deliberations of that Committee.
When they considered in what direction
it would be possible to obtain a relaxa-
tion of the present law, the most ob-
vious one that suggested itself was a
prolongation of the period of 21 years,
more particularly if that prolongation
could be accompanied by some less un-
favourable terms of purchase. This
was the view of the matter which had
commended itself to his noble Friend
(Viscount Bury), who had contributed
the second Bill to the trio now before
the House. If the question weremerely
one of raising a large amount of capital
in order to start an enterprise of this
kind once for all, it was likely enough
that such a relaxation as he had spoken
of would meet the circumstances of the
case. But they could not shut their
eyes to the fact that, in so experimental
an enterprise as electric lighting must
be for many years, it would be impos-
sible for a Company to lay out a large
sum in the first instance, in the full con-
fidence that they would obtain a fair
remuneration for their outlay. They
would establish the system on a com-
paratively small scale at first, and then
would gradually extend it. In that case
it was obvious that a comparatively
small capital would be required in the
first instance; but from time to time
they would have to go into the market
in order to raise fresh capital. In what
position would the Company be to effect
that object ? After a considerable frac-
tion of their term had elapsed they
would be in such a position that it would
be impossible for them to attract fresh
capital to the enterprise. Moreover, the
interests of the public would be by no
means well served during the latter part
of such a term. During the later years
the Company would hesitate greatly
about embarking on any improvements
or extending the area of their operations.
After considering the objections which
he had endeavoured to place before their
Lordships, the Committee came to the
conclusion that a solution of the question
could not be found in that direction; and
they proposed that the two competitors,
lighting by gas and lighting by elec-
tricity, should be put on the same foot-
ing in respect not only of privileges, but
also of obligations. The obligations im-
posed by the Bill were more severe than
anything in the existing law. One of
B2






7 Electric Lighting Act (1882) {LORDS}


the clauses relating to the compulsory
supply of electric light provided that the
Company should be required to supply
electric light at any point within 25 yards
of their mains. The important question
of the raising of additional capital was
provided for by the adoption of the cor-
responding provision from the Gas Acts
known as the Auction Clauses. The
object of securing to the public part of
the benefits of the undertaking was, to
a great extent, obtained under the pro-
visions of the Bill by the adoption of
what was known as the sliding scale of
the Gas Acts. If a Company were able
to supply light at a lower rate, then in
accordance with that they would be at
liberty to increase the dividends paid t0)
their shareholders. By this arrange-
ment a Company would have every in-
ducement to consider efficiency and eco-
nomy; and, at the same time, if circum-
stances were favourable, both the public
and the Company would be benefited.
At the present stage of the question he
did not wish to commit their Lordships
further than to the opinion that the
obstacles should now be removed which
practically forbade the attempt to supply
electricity publicly on a large scale under
the Act of 1882. If the suggestion of
the noble Viscount who had another
Bill on the same subject were adopted,
the exact form of that remedy might be
well left to a Select Committee of that
House, or of both Houses of Parlia-
ment. What he particularly wished to
emphasize was that too much time had
been lost already; and it would be a
matter of great regret if further delay
was allowed to intervene, so as to pre-
vent a fair chance being given to this
most interesting application of modern
discovery and invention, which promised
to do much to relieve the gloom and un-
healthiness of life in our great cities.
The noble Lord concluded by moving
that the Bill be now read the second
time.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 21."
-(7he Lord Rayleigh.)
LORD HOUGHTON said, that Her
Majesty's Government had no objection
to the second reading of this Bill, pro-
vided that if the Motion of the noble
Viscount (Viscount Bury) to refer the
two Bills to a Select Committee should
not be carried the noble Lord would
defer the Committee stage of the present
Lsrd Rayleigt


Bill till the Government Bill on the
same subject had passed through Com-
mittee.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 21 accord-
ingly.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882)
AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
(The Viscount Bury.)
(No. 40.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Read-
ing read.
VIscoUNT BURY, in moving that the
Bill be read the second time, said, that
although it went in the same direction,
it did not go so far as that of his noble
Friend (Lord Rayleigh). The Bill to
which the House had just given a second
reading was a Companies Bill, as it put
the undertakings of the Electric Light-
ing Companies on equal terms with
those of the Gas Companies. But he
believed that the interests of the public
would be best served if a term were
given at the end of which the electric
lighting undertakings should belong to,
or should be capable of acquisition by,
the Local Authorities. His noble Friend,
on the other hand, gave the Electric
Lighting Companies a perpetuity like
the Gas Companies. The term fixed by
the Bill which he was now moving was
42 years. He had no objection to the
greater part of his noble Friend's Bill;
but it would be in the interests of the
public that both should be referred to a
Select Committee. If the Government
had prepared a Bill on this subject why
had they not brought it on before, in-
stead of wishing to delay these Bills?
Legislation was urgently required on
this subject, as the Act of 1882 had
made electric lighting altogether an im-
possibility. He did not know of a
single place which had been lighted
under it. It had entirely frightened
capitalists away, as no one would invest
money in a concern which could be sold
for the price of old iron at the end of
21 years. He proposed to give a term
of 42 or 63 years, at the end of which
period the Local Authority would have
to pay the price of a going concern.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 21."
-(The Viscount Bury.)
Motion agreed to; Bill read 24 accord-
ingly.


Amendment (No. 2) Bill. 8






9 Electric Lighting Act (1882) {MARcIt 26, 18861 Amendment( Nos.1 &2) Bills. 10


ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882)
AMENDMENT (No. 1) BILL.-(No. 25.)
(The Lord raylerjh.)
ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882)
AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.-(No. 40.)
(The Viscount Bury.)
VISCOUNT BURY, in moving that
these two Bills should be referred to a
Select Committee, said, that the matter
must be dealt with, to a great extent,
on expert evidence. The principle to
which he attached importance was that
the term for the purchase of the under-
takings should be extended from 21 years
to a much longer period, and the object
of the Committee would be to inquire
from experts what was the shortest term
that could be given for working which
would permit of capital being raised for
electric light undertakings.
.ioved, That the Bills be referred to
a Select Committee."-( The Viscount
Bury.)
Loan HOUGHTON, in reply, said,
that Her Majesty's Government had no
complaint to make against either of the
noble Lords; on the contrary, they
quite admitted that the present position
of electric enterprise fully warranted them
in bringing in these Bills. Although
the Electric Lighting Act of 1882 con-
tained some valuable provisions, never-
theless he did not doubt that the time
had arrived for relaxing some of its most
stringent clauses. The Board of Trade
had, in relation to this matter, to con-
sider three separate interests-those of
the inventors, those of the Local Autho-
rities, and those of the public. Her
Majesty's Government believed that
electric lighting had a very brilliant
future before it, provided sufficient se-
curity was taken that new and perpetual
monopolies were not created. He ob-
jected to the Bill of the noble Lord (Lord
Rayleigh) on the ground that although
it was politely called an Amendment Bill
it was really intended to entirely destroy
the Act of 1882, and to establish a new
series of vested interests. The Govern-
ment, having taken the best opinions,
found itwas not necessary to alter the law
regarding the right of consumers tochoose
their own burners. The noble Lord's
argument seemed to be that because a
bad bargain had been made with the
Gas Companies they were bound to go


on making such bargains. He appealed
with great confidence to their Lordships
not to aid the noble Lord in establishing
a new monopoly. As to the Bill of the
noble Viscount (Viscount Bury), he
(Lord Houghton) was bound to say that
the Government thought the present
Purchase Clause was a fair one, and did
not work badly; but the Bill of the
noble Viscount would create a more
dangerous, because a more insidious,
form of monopoly. What Her Majesty's
Government were prepared to do in their
Bill was to extend the maximum term
during which a Provisional.Order should
remain in force from 21 years to 30
years, and, with the consent of the
Local Authority, to 42 years from the
date of the concession, the Companies to
have three months'notice in order to en-
able them to arrive at some new arrange-
ment. Her Majesty's Government, how-
ever, could not consent to their Bill being
referred, with those now under discussion,
to a Select Committee. He, therefore,
appealed to the noble Viscount to with-
draw his Motion for referring these
Bills to a Select Committee; or, at all
event, to postpone it until he had seen
the Government measure, which would
be laid before the House in a day or
two. In his opinion, this subject could
be better discussed in Committee of the
Whole House than by a Select Com-
mittee.
VISCOUNT CRANBROOK asked whe-
ther it was intended that the three Bills
should be referred to a Select Com-
mittee ?
LORD HOUGHTON replied in the
negative.
VIscourT BURY said, that an ex-
tended term of 30 years would not be
sufficient. If the noble Lord did not
intend that the Government Bill should
be referred to a Select Committee, and
refused to agree to a further extension
of the term beyond 30 years, he should
go to a division upon his present Mo-
tion. If the noble Lord, however,
would agree to refer the Government
Bill to the same Select Committee to
which these Bills were to be sent he
would gladly withdraw his Motion.
THE DUKE or RICHMOND AND
GORDON said, that when the House
had seen the Government Bill it would
then be for their Lordships to decide
whether the three Bills should be sent
to the same Select Committee.







11 Army Appropriation


EARL GRANVILLE was understood
to assent to that proposition.
Motion (by leave of the House) with-
drawn.

ISLANDS OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC-
THE NEW HEBRIDES -ALLEGED
OCCUPATION BY FRANCE.
QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
THE EARL OF HARROWBY, in rising
to ask the Secretary of State for the
Colonies, Whether he has received any
communications from the Australian
Colonies on, the subject of the appre-
hended occupation by France of the
New Hebrides; and whether he could
state what course Her Majesty's Go-
vernment propose to take respecting this
important matter? said, he hoped that
the Secretary of State for the Colonies
(Earl Granville) would be able to allay
some of the anxiety that was felt on
that important question. The future of
the New Hebrides was a matter of no
small concern to our Australian Colonies
and New Zealand, and the subject re-
quired to be treated with very great
delicacy and care. What he wished to
impress on the noble Earl was that
many of their Lordships felt an intense
desire that the question as to the New
Hebrides should be looked at principally
from an Australian point of view. These
Island were not of the small importance
to the Colonies of Australia and New
Zealand anyone would think, viewing
them from a map. Of course, as it was
mixed up with the subject of the possible
increase of French convicts in those seas,
it assumed an aspect of very great and
peculiar gravity. He therefore hoped
that Her Majesty's Government would
approach that matter with an earnest
desire to look at it not only from a British
point of view, but, if possible, primarily
from the point of view of their Austra-
lian fellow-subjects.
THE SECRETARY oF STATE FOR
THE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE) said,
he would endeavour, to answer the
Question in the same spirit in which the
noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) had
asked it. He (Earl Granville) fully re-
cognized the appreciation shown by the
noble Earl of the delicacy of some of the
matters connected with that question.
Their Lordships were aware that an
agreement had been come to with re-
gard to the Hebrides, and the Govern-


ment most fully adhered to that agree-
ment. A pledge had been given on the
part of Her Majesty's Government to
the Australian Colonies that no agree-
ment should be entered into or con-
sidered with reference to those Islands
without consultation with the Colonies
interested in the matter; and at this
moment they were in communication
with all the Colonies on a sugges-
tion that had been thrown out by the
French Government which they thought
might possibly be agreeable to the Colo-
nies. Under those circumstances, he did
not consider that it would be convenient
in the interests of the Public Service
that he should make any further state-
ment at present on the matter.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882) AMEND-
MENT (NO. 3) BILL [I.L.]
A Bill to amend the Electric Lighting Act,
1882-W-as presented by The Lord Houghton;
read 1. (No. 48.)

CONSOLIDATED FUND (NO. 1) BILL.
Read 2a (according to order): Committee
negatived: Then Standing Order No. XXXV.
considered (according to order), and dispensed
with : Bill read 3,, and passed.
House adjourned at half past Five o'clock,
to Monday next, a quarter before
Eleven o'clock.


HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Friday, 261h Alarch, 1886.


MINUTES.] PRIVATE BILL (by Order) -
Withdrawn-Mretropolitan Street Improve-
ments Act, 1877 (Amendment).*

Q UES TI ONS.
---o-b-
ARMY APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS-
CHELSEA IN-PENSIONERS.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKE (Chelsea)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War
Office, Whether his attention has been
drawn to the remarks of the Comptroller
and Auditor General, at page 194 of the
Army Appropriation Account recently
distributed, as to the age of Chelsea In-
Pensioners; and, whether he will con-
sider if the Secretary of State cannot
make use of his powers under the Yeo-
manry Act of 1884, to so interpret the
Chelsea Warrant as to allow the autho-


COMMONS }


Accounts. 12








rities of the Hospital to continue the should not have so acted. He had no
practice of admitting a fewmen who are intention of contravening the law, but
able to work and perform duty for the simply to superadd the sanction of the
help of their weaker comrades ? Church to the secular ceremony. Mum-
TII, FINANCIAL SECRETARY merv was the beadle and his wife had
(Mr. HERBERT GLLADSTONE) (Leeds, W.): been pew-opener, but was not now so
Yes, Sir; my attention has been drawn employed. Mummery stated that his
to the objections of the Comptroller and reason for going before the Registrar
Auditor General, and steps are being rather than to the church was his desire
taken to remove technical difficulties, to avoid any public or general notice;
and to continue a practice which is ne- and seeing that he was about to marry
cessary for the service of the Hospital. his fourth wife, and that his intended
wife was about to marry her third hus-


MARRIAGE LAW-CIVIL MARRIAGE.
MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton)
asked Mr. Attorney General, Whether
he is aware that a marriage between
George Mummery, widower, and Jane
Johnston, widow, was duly solemnized,
on the llth May 1885, before W. T.
Ward, Registrar of St. Olave, South-
wark, and was duly registered; whether,
after, and with the knowledge of such
marriage, the Rev. W. J. Batchelor,
Rector of St. John, Horsleydown, incited
the said George Mummery and Jane
Johnston to be re-married before him,
by licence, in the parish church, on the
1st July 1885; whether such second mar-
riage was also registered, in contraven-
tion of the 19th and 20th Vie. c. 119, s.
12; whether he is aware that the parties
to the marriage were respectively beadle
and pew-opener in the said parish; whe-
ther, under the incitement, and with the
knowledge of the said Rev. W. J.
Batchelor, the marriage before the Re-
gistrar was disregarded, and treated as
if it had not happened, and the parties
were still described in the declaration
for the licence, and in the parish church
register, as widower and widow, as
though the marriage before the Regis-
trar had not taken place; and, whether
he will direct the Public Prosecutor to
take any action in the matter?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir
CHARLES RUSSELL) (Hackney, S.), in re-
ply, said, he had communicated with the
rev. gentleman, who had written and
also called upon him. It was true, the
rector said, that after the marriage be-
fore the Registrar he advised Mummery
to obtain a licence, with a view to his
marriage being celebrated according to
the rites and ceremonies of the Church;
and the marriage was subsequently so-
lemnized and registered, as stated in the
Question. He was not then aware of.the
provisions of the Act of Parliament, or


band, perhaps their modesty was not
unnatural. He did not think that on
the whole it was desirable to take any
further notice of the matter.
FRANCE CONDITION OF THE AGRI-
CULTURAL & INDUSTRIAL CLASSES
--REPORT OF THE COMMISSION.
Mn. F. S. POWELL (Wigan) asked
the President of the Board of Trade,
Whether a further Report has been
published by members of the Commis-
sion appointed by the French Chamber
of Deputies to inquire into the situation
of the agricultural and industrial classes
in France; and, whether, if such further
Report relates to the agricultural classes,
he will lay upon the Table of the House
extracts from such Report, in continua-
tion of Return I C. 4667], relating to cer-
tain industrial classes, which was recently
presented to the House?
TRE PRESIDENT (Mr. MUNDELLA)
(Sheffield, Brightside): No Report of
the French Commission has yet been re-
ceived relating to agriculture. When it
comes to hand it shall be dealt with in
the same manner as the Industrial Re-
port and submitted to Parliament.

LAW AND POLICE (IRELAND)-ARREST
OF MR. MORTIMER DOYLE.
Mi. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.) asked
the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, Whether a man,
named Mortimer Doyle, was arrested
in Dalkey, county of Dublin, on the
23rd of November last, as he was leav
ing a Nationalist election meeting, for
having, on the morning of the same'
day, in assertion of title, thrown down
a wall the height of which the Board of
Works had, against his previous pro-
test, raised; whether Doyle was detained
in the company of common criminals in
the police cells till the following day, al-
though solvent bail was offered on his


13 Law and Police


I NARcn 26, 18861


(fi~cand).14







Lights. 16


behalf; whether on the trial of the case
Doyle was discharged, the magistrate
observing that he had done nothing but
what he was justified in doing; whether
the same magistrate, at the first hearing
of the case, at once declared his opinion
that it was a case for a civil action rather
than for a criminal prosecution ; whether
he will state the name of the official re-
sponsible for the arrest; and, whether
the Government will compensate Doyle
for the wrong to which he has been sub-
jected?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.
JoHN MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne), in
reply, said that it was a fact that
'Mortimer Doyle was arrested in Dalkey
on the 23rd of November last for hav-
ing thrown down a portion of a wall be-
tween his premises and the police sta-
tion. The police had been previously
informed that the wall was regarded as
the property of the Chief Commissioner,
and they made the arrest on their own
responsibility. Doyle was not placed in
the cell, but allowed to remain at the fire
in the reserve room. No offer was made
to bail him. He was discharged by the
magistrate, who considered that, so far
as pulling down the wall was concerned,
Doyle acted under a fair and reasonable
supposition that he had a right to do
what he did. He added, however, that
if Doyle suffered anything in conse-
quence he had only himself to blame,
as he had used threats, and the case
was not considered one in which com-
pensation should be given.
MR. CLANCY: The right hon. Gen-
tleman has not stated the name of the
official responsible for the arrest.
MR. JOHN MORLEY: Unfortu-
nately I do not know the name.
MR. CLANCY: Will you inquire.
MR. JOHN MORLEY: I will.
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-CASE
OF M1'EEKAN v. THOMSON."
MR. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.) asked
the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieuten-
ant of Ireland, Whether Mr. Coffey, Tax-
ing Officer, Four Courts, Dublin, was re-
cently frequently applied to by the de-
fendant and his solicitor, in the case of
M'Meekan v. Thomson, for copies of an
affidavit made by the plaintiff, which
said Mr. Coffey had characterized as
" wilful and deliberate perjury; whe-
ther Mr. Coffey declined to give the
copies applied for; whether it is now
.Mr. Clancy


alleged that the documents cannot be
found; and, whether it is the practice
for Mr. Coffey to reecive, in the dis-
charge of the duties of his office, affida-
vits which have not been regularly filed;
and, if so, whether he will bring the fact
under the notice of the Attorney General
for Ireland, with a view to a change of
practice in Mr. Coffoy's office, so as to
make persons responsible for what they
state on oath ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.
Jonrr MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne), in
reply, said, the affidavit was made in the
course of the taxation of a bill of costs,
and as to the payments alleged to have
been made to a witness. MasterCoffey,
in the discharge of his duty, considered
it necessary to comment on the nature
of the explanation. It was not the prac-
tice, as he was informed by the Attorney
General, to file affidavits made for the
purpose of vouching items in a bill of
costs. The original affidavits were inter-
changed between the parties, and after-
wards handed to the solicitor for the
party who produced them. That course,
he was informed, was found convenient
and economical, and was followed in this
case; consequently Mr. Coffey was un-
able to comply with the application. He
was advised that the Attorney General
could not interfere in the case.

IRISH LIGHTS- BOAT SERVICE TO
THE FASTNET ROCK LIGHTHOUSE.
Mn. GILHOOLY (Cork, W.) asked
the President of the Board of Trade, If
it is a fact that Mr. Isaac Notter, of
Crookhaven, has a monopoly of the boat
attendance to the Fastnet Rock Light-
house; if other inhabitants of Crook-
haven have repeatedly offered to supply
a better boat and crew on cheaper terms;
and, whether, in future, the boat attend-
ance will be thrown open to public com-
petition ?
THE PRESIDENT (Mr. MUNDELLA)
(Sheffield, Brightside): The Commis-
sioners of Irish Lights inform me that
Mr. Isaac Notter, of Crookhaven, has
had the carrying out of the boat attend-
ance on Fastnet for over 20 years. Ap-
plications have, from time to time, been
received for this contract; but the Com-
missioners have strong objections to in-
trusting this particular contract to in-
experienced persons, owing to the danger
of the service; and as the Fastnet is ex-
ceptionally difficult of access for reliev-


15 Irizsh


{ COMMONS }







17 Crime and Outrage


Sing the light keepers and supplying them
with provisions, the Commissioners are
not at present inclined to disturb Mr.
Notter in his contract.
MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND) ACT
-REFUSAL OF MEDICAL RELIEF-
CASE OF GEORGE MARTON, CASHEL
UNION.
MAJOR SAUNDERSON (Armagh, N.)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the Go-
vernment is aware that, quite recently,
George Marton, in charge on an evicted
farm near Clerihan, in the Rose Green
Dispensary District of the Cashel Union,
in the county of Tipperary, was, while
very ill, refused a ticket for medical re-
lief by Mr. E. Heffernan, of Mocklers-
town, on the grounds of his being an
Emergency man, and was told he might
get a doctor for himself, the consequence
being that Marton, although seriously
ill for ten days, was unable to procure
medical relief, through there being no
one within two miles who could issue
medical relief tickets; and, whether Her
Majesty's Government will take such
steps as may prove necessary to prevent
the issue of medical relief tickets being
influenced by personal motives ?
Mn. SEXTON (Sligo, 8.): I would
ask the Chief Secretary whether Emer-
gency men are entitled to outdoor relief
out of the poors' rate, having regard to
the fact that their wages are generally
7s. 6d. a-day ?
TIrE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JonN
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne): I am in-
formed that Marton was refused a dis-
pensary ticket by Mr. Heffernan on the
ground that he was in receipt of wages
of 1 a-week, paid every Saturday. If
the man was seriously ill and unable to
pay a doctor, it seems strange that he
should have omitted to communicate
with the relieving officer, who is a re-
sponsible person, and who would not
have refused relief without due cause.
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) -
BLOWING UP OF HOUSE OF
ROBERT MARSHALL AT LONDON-
DERRY.
Mn. JOHN REDMOND (Wexford,
N.) asked the Chief Secretary to the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether
his attention has been called to the re-
cent trial and conviction of George
M'Garrigle on the charge of setting


fire, by means of a dynamite explosion,
to the house of one Robert Marshall in
Derry, on St. Patrick's Day 1885; whe-
ther he is aware that it was alleged at
the time of the occurrence that this out-
rage was perpetrated by the Nationalists
of Derry, in consequence of Robert Mar-
shall being obnoxious to them ; whether
Marshall actually brought a claim for
malicious inj ury before the Derry Grand
Jury; whether a Crimes Act inquiry into
all the circumstances of the case was
several times demanded, and was refused
by the authorities; whether, as a conse-
quence, Marshall evaded all suspicion,
and M'Garrigle, being released on bail,
fled the Country, and was only brought
to justice several months after; whether
he is aware that upon the recent trial it
was conclusively proved that M'Garrigle
was the tool of Marshall, who bribed him
to commit the outrage; whether he is
aware thatM'Garrigle was recommended
to mercy by the jury, on the ground
that he was a tool of Marshall's," the
learned judge who presided saying
" there was no doubt about that; whe-
ther Marshall has successfully evaded
justice; and, whether the Government
can give any information as to the num-
ber of cases recently in which outrages
to property in Ireland, attributed to the
people, have subsequently been proved,
as in this case and the case of Mrs. Lucas
in Cork, to have been perpetrated by the
owners of the property themselves ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. Jons
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne), in reply,
said, that the first eight paragraphs in
the Question were correct statements of
the facts. It was always believed by the
authorities that Marshall had employed
M'Garrigle to blow up the house with
gunpowder, not dynamite. An inquiry
under the Crimes Act was suggested at
the time; but it was ultimately deter-
mined that no benefit could accrue from
it. The Inspector General informed him
that he was not aware of any recent
cases, except this and the case of Mrs.
Lucas mentioned in the House the other
night, in which outrages to property were
proved to be perpetrated by the owners
of the property themselves.
MR. SEXTON (Sligo, S.): Does not
his Excellency know of the case of the
Orange member of the Corporation of
Derry, who was sentenced to five years'
penal servitude for burning his own
house ?


IM~nncii 26, 18861


(Ireland2). 18








MR. JOHN MORLEY: The hon. I planation of the magistrates. They
Gentleman misapprehended what I said. State that it was proved before them that
I said the Inspector General was not the peace of the district was seriously
aware- endangered, and, therefore, that they
MR. SEXTON : He ought to be thought it necessary to impose a severe
aware. sentence. The Lord Chancellor sees no
Season to doubt that they arrived at the
FISHERIES (SCOTLAND)-BEAM conclusion in good faith ; but he concurs
TRAWLING IN IN-SHORE WATERS. with the County Court Judge in think-
MR. PRESTON BRUCE (Fifeshire, ing that the original sentence was, under
W.) asked the Secretary for Scotland, the circumstances, one of undue severity,
Whether he has yet confirmed the bye- and he has so informed the magistrates,
law recently passed by the Fishery with an intimation that he hopes in
Board for Scotland, with reference to future they will exercise a more careful
beam-trawling in the Firth of Forth and discretion in fixing the amount of punish-
certain other territorial waters; and, ment. His Excellency has declined to
whether this bye-law will come into remit the fine which was attached to the
force upon the 5th of April next, as its reversal of the decision of these magis-
terms show was intended by the Fishery trates.
Board ?
THE SECRETARY Fon SCOTLAND CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) -
(Mr. TREVELYAN) (Hawick, &c.): Before BOGUS OUTRAGE AT CASTLECAUL-
confirming the bye-law recently passed FIELD, CO. TYRONE CASE OF
by the Fishery Board for Scotland for ROBERT CUDDY.
closing certain in-shore waters against MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN (Tyrone,
beam trawling, I have arranged to re- S.) asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
ceive deputations from the General Lieutenant of Ireland, Was it reported
Steam Fishing Company, and repre- to the police, that, on the night of 21st
sentatives of the various Bodies who December last, a man disguised and with
have memorialized the Fishery Board his face blackened visited the houses
on the subject, together with the mem- of John Armstrong, Jonathan Colbert,
bers of the Fishery Board itself, in Thomas Armstrong, Samuel Somerville,
order to give the opportunity of a full JohnMacwhinny, and WilliamM'Kenna,
hearing of the arguments of all parties near Castlecaulfield, county Tyrone; is
concerned. The bye-law will not come it the fact that the man had a book with
into force on the 5th of April unless it him, from which he pretended to read,
shall have been confirmed by the Secre- and in which he seemed to make entries;
tary for Scotland. that he asked who lived in each house,
-_/ and for whom he had voted at the late
IRELAND-THE MAGISTRACY- election; said he was from Dublin and
MESSRS. TRUELL, BARTON, AND had other boys with him; that he told
ACTON-CASE OF MR. STOREY. them to pay no rent, or, if they did,
MI. W. J. CORBET (Wicklow, E.) they would not have long to live; whe-
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord their, when he came to the house of
Lieutenant of Ireland, What decision M'Kenna, he said, All right, you are
the Lord Chancellor has come to in re- a Nationalist," and, pointing to a school-
ference to the conduct of Messieurs house, which had been an Orange Lodge,
Truell, Barton, and Acton as Justices of said, That must be removed ;" was he
the Peace, in sentencing Mr. Storey to hunted down and captured by two men
six months' imprisonment, without the named Bunnes and Armstrong, and did
option of fine, for a nominal assault; it transpire that he was an Orangeman
and, whether the Lord Lieutenant has named Robert Cuddy, junior; is it true
acceded to the application made to him that Cuddy and his father were brought
on behalf of Mr. Storey, and remitted by the police before a local justice,
the penalty of five pounds imposed by Colonel Burgess, and discharged with-
the County Court Judge in reversing the out a prosecution; and, was the case
decision of the Magistrates ? reported to the resident magistrate, and
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN have any steps been taken to punish the
MORLEY) (Newcastle on Tyne): The author of this outrage; and, if not, who
Lord Chancellor has received the ex- is responsible?


19 Critne acnd Outrage


{COMMONSt


(Irelad). 20







21 Dlie .3Igisrae2I2


THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne), in reply.
said, a Report was being prepared with
reference to the circumstances, and was
under consideration. He would ak the
hon. Member to repeat the Question, so
as to give him an opportunity of fully
inquiring into it.
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-
OUTRAGE IN PORTADOWN.
MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN (Tyrone,
S.) asked the Chief Secretary to the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Is it a fact
that, on Saturday night last, a stone was
flung into the shop of Miss Fearon,
newsagent, Portadown, and two panes
of plate glass broken; has Miss Fearon's
house been repeatedly attacked and her
life threatened unless she ceased to ex-
hibit the cartoons of the Nationalist
papers in her shop window; was a stone
or bullet fired through the window on
the night of the 22nd February last;
was another stone flung into the shop
on the evening of 18th February, and a
Mr. M'Intyre, who was standing by the
counter, struck; have the police failed
to bring the authors of any of these re-
peated attacks to justice; and, whether
adequate police protection will be afforded
to Miss Fearon in the exercise of her
lawful calling, against the intimidation
practised against her ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JoIN
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne), in reply,
said, that the police were aware that
two stones and a marble were thrown
into the shop of Miss Fearon, in whose
shop Nationalist newspapers were sold,
and that notices were posted cautioning
her against exhibiting the cartoons.
The police had not heard of the incident
of the 18th February mentioned in the
Question, and therefore they assumed it
had not occurred. The police had in-
structions to keep watch on the house in
their order to detect the guilty parties; but
efforts had hitherto been without success.
MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: I would
draw the attention of the Chief Secretary
and the Government to the singular
supineness of the authorities in dealing
with Orange rowdies, and will ask a
Question on that subject.
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-THE
SHERIFF OF GALWAY.
MR. SEXTON (Sligo, S.) asked the
Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant


of Ireland, With reference to statements
in the press to the effect that a force of
constabulary has been engaged in aiding
the sheriff to carry out evictions on the
estate of the Catholic Archbishop of
Tuam, whether the only ground for the
statement is that the sheriff of Galway,
last month, executed a writ of habere
upon a holding of which the Archbishop
is trustee on behalf of a charitable insti-
tution; whether the holding formed an
undivided moiety of a certain parcel of
land, the tenant being the owner in fee
of the other moiety ; whether, before
the execution of the writ, the Arch-
bishop's solicitor and agent informed the
sheriff that there was no occasion for
the employment of the constabulary, that
it would involve entirely unnecessary
expense, and that the ejectment of the
tenant was not required, the object of
the writ being, as was known to the
sheriff and all the parties concerned, to
procure a legal partition of the moieties
of the land; whether, notwithstanding,
the sheriff brought a large force of con-
stabulary to the spot; whether he and
his bailiff insisted on putting out the
tenant, against the expressed desire of
the agent; how the cost of the force of
constabulary will be defrayed; and,
what course the Government will
take in regard to the conduct of the
sheriff?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. Jonr
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne), in reply,
said, that there was only one eviction in
this case, and it was simply of a formal
nature to enable possession tobe assumed
of an undivided moiety, the tenant being
the owner in fee of the other undivided
moiety. It was carried out without the
slightest difficulty or inconvenience to
the tenant. The Archbishop did inti-
mate, through his solicitor, to the sheriff
that no difficulty whatever was expected,
and that the police might be dispensed
with. The sheriff, however, from con-
siderations of a general character, and
without reference to the particular cir-
cumstances of the case, concluded that
he would not be justified in going into
the locality without protection, and he
was accompanied by eight men. The
cost only amounted to one guinea, which
would be paid out of the Constabulary
Vote.
Mn. SEXTON: I shall move to take
that guinea out of the Constabulary
Vote.


JMancii 26, 18861


(Ir elandl). 221






23 Crime and Outrage


AFRICA (EAST COAST)-FOREIGN
ANNEXATION.
MR. JAMES HUTTON (Manchester,
N.) asked the Under Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs, Whether he can,
without detriment to the Public Service,
inform the House of the precise terms
of the understanding with the Govern-
ments of France, Germany, and Zanzi-
bar, to which reference was made by
him on the llth instant, to the effect
that no annexation of territory will be
made while the Zanzibar Delimitation
Commission is sitting ; and, when it is
expected that the Commission will com-
plete its work ?
THF UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Mr. BRYCE) (Aberdeen, S.): No
reference was made in my answer on the
11th instant to any understanding with
the Governments of France or Zanzibar.
The understanding with Germany is in-
formal; but Her Majesty's Government
are satisfied that it will be observed. It
is at present impossible to form an esti-
mate as to the date when the work of
the Commission will be completed.

SOUTH AFRICA-THE SALE OF IN-
TOXICATING DRINKS IN THE
TRANSKEI.
MR. VALENTINE (Cumberland,
Cockermouth) asked the Under Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies, Whether
the Proclamation made by the Govern-
ment of Cape Colony, allowing the sale
of intoxicating drinks in the Transkei
is still in force, or if it has been with-
drawn; and, if the latter, what was the
date of the withdrawal ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF
STATE (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN) (Den-
bighshire, E.): By a Proclamation dated
October 8, 1885, of the Government of
the Cape Colony, and amended by a
Proclamation dated December 31, 1885,
the sale of spirituous liquors to any Na-
tive, unless he should produce a permit
signed by a magistrate, a Justice of the
Peace, or field cornet, was prohibited in
the Transkeian territory. These Pro-
clamations are still in force. There is
no prohibition against the sale of other
liquors to Natives, although the importa-
tion of wine, beer, and other intoxi-
cating liquors into the territory, except
under certain conditions, is strictly for-
bidden. Papers relating to the subject


Were laid by me yesterday on the Table,
and will be circulated in a few days.

ARMY-THE MARTINI-ENFIELD
RIFLE.
Mn. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.) asked
the Secretary of State for War, Whe-
ther he will make arrangements for the
issne to the public of a limited number
of the new Martini-Enfield -400 rifles,
with ammunition, on payment of four
pounds for each rifle and ten shillings
for each hundred rounds of ammunition,
in order to subject the new arm to in-
dependent criticism ?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN) (Stirling, &c.):
The pattern of the new rifle which has
been approved by the Military Autho-
rities was elaborated, after numerous ex-
periments, by a committee of officers
thoroughly conversant with the require-
ments of the Service. As an additional
precaution, a tentative issue of 1,000
rifles will be made to the troops in order
to see if they may require alteration in
any minor points. Under these circum-
stances, I do not consider that it will be
necessary to resort to the plan suggested
by the hon. Member.
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-
MURDER OF PATRICK FINLAY
AT WOODFORD.
CAPTAIN M'CALMONT (Antrim, E.)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the
following facts relative to the estates of
Sir Henry Burke and Mrs. Lewis, in the
vicinity of Woodford, are correct :-That
on the estate of Sir Henry Burke, com-
prising one hundred and thirty holdings,
there has not been a single rise of rent
in the memory of the oldest tenant; that
not a single tenant entered the Land
Court to obtain a reduction of rent; that,
in November last, Sir Henry Burke
voluntarily offered a reduction of fifteen
per cent; that, on the estate of Mrs.
Lewis, almost all the tenants have had
judicial rents fixed; whether the tenants,
at the usual time for paying their rents,
marched in, in a body, headed by four
priests, and demanded a reduction of
fifty per cent; whether these reverend
gentlemen were membersof the National
League, and if the murdered man, Fin-
lay, was refused Christian burial byanyof
them; whether it was on account of this
demand, and the threats and intimida-


1 comAhTONS)


(Ireland). 2






25 Tighq Court of Justice {MAncI 26, 1886}


tion accompanying it, that legal proceed-
ings were instituted; and, whether the
Irish Executive still decline to afford
assistance to Sir Henry Burke and Mrs.
Lewis to enable them to assert their legi-
timate rights?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JoHN
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne): I have
no reason to doubt the substantial accu-
racy of the statements contained in
this Question, except that, with regard
to the burial of Finlay, I am informed
that he was buried with the rites of his
Church, and that one of the clergymen
referred to in a preceding paragraph
of the Question officiated. As to the
last paragraph, I have only to observe
that there is no pretence whatever for
the assumption that either in these or in
any other cases the Government have
declined to afford assistance in the asser-
tion of legitimate rights.

LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND) ME-
MORIAL FOR REMISSION OF SEN-
TENCES-CASE OF THE O'BRIENS'.
CAPTAIN M'CALMONT (Antrim, E.)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether a me-
morial has been presented to the Irish
Executive for the remission of sentences
of twelve months' imprisonment passed
on two men named O'Brien, at the
Winter Wicklow Assizes, for having
waylaid and badly beaten a carman
named James Dunne, who was boy-
cotted for driving the police ; whether,
after the trial at Wicklow, a hay-rick,
the property of James Dunne, was ma-
liciously burnt; and, whether it is the
intention of the Executive to accede to
the prayer of the memorial ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.
Jonn MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne), in
reply, said, the memorial was under the
consideration of the Government. It
was a fact that a hayrick, the property
of Dunne, had been burned, and Dunne
had announced his intention to seek
compensation; but he attributed the act
to no one in particular.


Police in Leeds on Friday 19th in-
stant:-
"Yesterday afternoon a scene of an unusual
and not very creditable character took place in
Briggate, the principal street of Leeds. The
management of the Grand Theatre had issued
placards 'to the unemployed,' offering work to
two hundred men. The men were to apply at
the stage door of the theatre at half-past
twelve, and some hundreds congregated in Har-
rison Street. Some of the theatre officials, it is
understood, became alarmed at the language
used by some of the men who were rejected,
and word was sent to the Police Station that a
riot was in progress. A few minutes later, while
the crowd was peaceable and orderly, half a
dozen policemen, mounted on horses from the
TFire Brigade Station, dashed along Briggate,
and, turning into Harrison Street, rode down
upon the closely-packed mass outside the theatre
door. A scene of great confusion and terror
ensued, the people flying in all directions to
escape the horses' hoofs, while those who at-
tained places of safety hooted at the Police.
The latter, turning, rode out again into Brig-
gate, which was now full of excited spectators,
and these latter, to their dismay, were then
charged by the horsemen, who dashed along the
pavements, driving the unfortunate bystanders
and pedestrians into shops, &c. and pursuing
them up the side streets they sought refuge in.
Returning to the main street, now crowded,
they dashed repeatedly along the pavements
and road, one man even kicking at the crowd
as he dashed by them. An order was given for
the men to confine themselves to the road, and
to behave with more moderation, and after some
time the excitement abated, and in an hour or
so the crowd dispersed; "
and, whether he will cause inquiries to
be made into the matter?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
CHILDERS) (Edinburgh S.) said, he had
asked for a Report from theLeeds autho-
rities into the conduct of the police of
that borough on the 19th instant, andhad
been promised a Report of the facts of
the case when the Watch Committee had
ascertained the full particulars. When
the Report reached him he would con-
sider what was necessary to be done.
He reminded the hon. Member that he
hadnoauthority over the borough police,
and that none had authority but the
elected Town Council.

HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE (CHANCERY


.II \ 1UliiN )-T -A.lXING MASTI ERS.
M R. BARTLEY (Islington, N.) asked
LAW AND POLICE-ACTION OF THE Mr. Attorney General, Whether, having
POLICE AT LEEDS. regard to the additional powers and re-
MR. WILLIAM REDMOND (Fer- sponsibility conferred on and vested in
managh, N.) asked the Secretary of the eight Chancery Taxing-Masters, by
State for the Home Department, Whe- Order 65 of The Rules of the Supreme
their his attention has been called to the Court, 1883,"and theRules of December
following account of the conduct of the 1885, and to the fact that the fees earned


( 0- n i _iv~in) 2







27 The fiag lisracy


by them amount on an average to
32,215 per annum, showing an annual
profit, after payment of their salaries and
the salaries of their clerks, of between
9,000 and 10,000 per annum, the
Government will take under their con-
sideration the propriety of appointing
an additional Taxing-Master, making
the ninth, thus completing the number
contemplated and provided for by sec-
tion 5 of the 5th and 6th Vie. c. 103 ?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir
CHARLES RUSSELL) (Hackney, S.), in
reply, said, he would take care that this
point was submitted to the Lord Chan-
cellor ?

INDIA (FINANCE, &c.)-THE SILVER
CURRENCY.
MR. JAMES MACLEAN (Oldham)
asked the Under Secretary of State for
India, with reference to the statement
of the Indian Finance Minister, Sir A.
Colvin, in his Budget Speech. that-
"The earnest attention of the Secretary of
State has been called to the subject of the silver
difficulty by the Indian Government, who have
pressed on him the necessity of seeking, in con-
cert with the Great Powers and the United
States, a solution of the question,"
What steps have been taken, and with
what result, by the Secretary of State to
give effect to this recommendation ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Sir UGIHTRED KAY-SIIUTTLE-
WORTH (Lancashire, Clitheroe) : On
January 26 last a letter on this subject
was sent by order of the noble Lord
the late Secretary of State in Council to
the Treasury. This was followed by a
further letter, inclosing, by the direction
of the present Secretary of State in
Council, a despatch from the Govern-
ment of India. The questions involved
are now under the consideration of the
Treasury, and no reply has yet been re-
ceived.

ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-THE
FIRST GLOUCESTERSHIRE EN-
GINEERS' CORPS.
Ma. AGG-GARDNER (Cheltenham)
asked the Secretary of State for War,
Whether, as a large number of Volun-
teers are desirous of joining the 1st
Gloucestershire (Western Counties)
Engineers' Corps, but are prevented by
reason of the Regiment having attained
its regulation strength, he will sanction
the formation of two additional com-
Ir. Bartley


panies, or the enrolment of supernu-
meraries ?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN) (Stirling, &c.):
The corps in question has already 10
companies, and the addition of a sub-
marine company at Cardiff has been
sanctioned. This is considered by the
Military Authorities to be as large for
administrative purposes as any Volun-
teer corps should be. The enrollment of
supernumeraries is contrary to regula-
tion.

PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-HOUSE
OF COMMONS-THE LOBBY.
MR. BRUNNER (Cheshire, North-
wich) asked the honourable Member for
North West Staffordshire, Whether he
will, for the convenience of Members of
this House, permit two or more men of
the Corps of Commissionaires to attend
in the Lobby?
THE LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr.
LEVESON GOWER) (Stafford, N.W.) said,
he would take care that the suggestion
of the hon. Member should be brought
under the notice of the proper authori-
ties.

THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND) MR.
FRANK BROOK, BROOKBOROUGH,
CO. FERMANAGH.
MR. WILLIAM REDMOND (Fer-
managh, N.) asked the Chief Secretary
to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
Whether his attention has been called to
the following paragraph in the Report
of a speech delivered by Mr. Frank
Brook, at Brookborough, county Fer-
managh, and reported in The Fermanagh
Times of the 18th instant-
"But, brother Orangemen, if England spurns
us from her then, and, if by the vot of the men
who are tied hand and foot to Gladstone's
chariot wheels, and who would follow him to
perdition sooner than vote against him-if, I
say, by these votes Home Rule is granted to
the Parnellite rebels, then, I say, England
scorns us ; and we must let her know, with no
uncertain sound, that we, the loyal minority,
will never, no, never, allow the rebels to place
their yoke around our necks, at least not with-
out a struggle; and, before accepting their law
as the law of the land, we will rise as one man
and fight for our liberties, our homes, and our
glorious religion; "
and, whether this speech will be brought
by the Government under the notice of
the Lord Chancellor, in view of the fact
that Mr. Brook holds the Commission of
the Peace, and is a Deputy Lieutenant


{COMMONS;


(Ireland). 28






29 Regulation of


for Fermanagh? The hon. Member
added that his Question had been al-
tered. In the original form the word
"hell" occurred, and not "perdition."
THIE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.
JoHN MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne):
This Question appears without Notice,
and I have not been able to ascertain
whether this quotation is correctly given.
If I find, however, that there is reason
to believe that Mr. Brook used the lan-
guage imputed to him, I may consider
it my duty to bring the matter under
the notice of the Lord Chancellor.

POST OFFICE REGISTERED TELE-
GRAPHIC ADDRESSES-MIESSRS. J &
W. JUDGE, KENNINGTON.
Mn. GENT-DAVIS (Lambeth, Ken-
nington) asked the Secretary to the Trea-
sury, Whether the Telegraph Depart-
ment have refused to continue the
registered telegraphic address Cotton-
bag," adopted by Messrs. J. and W.
Judge, of Kennington, some years ago,
and selected by the Post Office at the
time as being a suitable one for them,
and if the refusal is solely on the ground
that it is a double word, and might"
cause difficulties in transmission; whe-
ther the Department has given this firm
two months summary notice to discon-
tinue the address, putting them to con-
siderable inconvenience and expense,
advising correspondents, renewing sta-
tionery, &c.; and, if there is any
instance where this anticipated difficulty
has occurred with the address in ques-
tion, and is it a fact that a large num-
ber of commercial houses in London are
at the present time using double words?
THE SECRETARY TO TIE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLEn) (Wol-
verhampton, E.), in reply, said, the
address referred to was registered be-
fore addresses of telegrams were charged
for, and now there were frequent dis-
putes as to whether it was one word or
two. Consequently, the Postmaster
General had given notice that the word
must be changed, but was willing to
allow a sufficient interval to elapse to
prevent inconvenience.

DYNAMITE OUTRAGES, 1884 (METRO-
POLIS)-THE REWARD.
VIscouNT NEWARK (Notts, Newark)
asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, Whether the reward
of two thousand pounds, offered in 1885


for information which would lead to the
conviction of Cunningham and Burton,
the dynamitards, ha.s yet been awarded;
whether Mr. and Mrs. Herrod, who were
fellow passengers with Cunningham on
board the S't.,,....", were subpoenaed by
the Solicitor to the Treasury to attend
the Sessions at the Old Bailey in May
last. and there gave important evidence
identifying the prisoners; and, whether
it is the intention of Her Majesty's Go-
vernment to grant Mr. and Mrs. Herrod
any of the promised reward ?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
CIrILDERS) (Edinburgh, S.): Yes, Sir;
so much of the reward as it has been
deemed advisable to distribute has been
already apportioned by the Police Au-
thorities in accordance with the instruc-
tions of the Treasury Solicitor. The
noble Lord may not be aware that this
reward referred only to the four explo-
sions which took place at London rail-
way stations in February, 1884, and that
Cunningham and Burton were proved
to have been connected with only one of
these. It is true that Mr. and Mrs.
Herrod gave useful evidence; but they
have not been rewarded, as they did not
come within the terms of the reward
bill. They were ordinary witnesses,
brought forward as the result of police
inquiry, and did not give information
such as that for which the reward was
offered.

REGULATION OF THEATRES-
LEGISLATION.
CaPTAIN PRICE (Devonport) asked
the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment, Whether, with the view of
enabling the local authorities to more
effectually control places of public en-
tertainment, he would bring in a Bill to
extend the provisions of the Act 25 Geo.
2, c. 36, s. 2, at present only applicable
to the Metropolis, to the whole of the
United Kingdom ?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
COfLDens) (Edinburgh, S.): Except in a
letter from the hon. and gallant Member
himself, I have had no information laid
before me showing that the Local Autho-
rities have not, under the present law,
sufficient power to control places of
public entertainment. Under these cir-
cumstances, I cannot pledge myself to
recommend legislation in the direction
proposed-that is to say, by extending
the operation of Section 2 of the Act


JAIakcom 26, 18861


TIPnre.F.30






of Cornwall. 32


quoted, by which any house, garden, or
other place kept for public entertain-
ment without a licence shall be deemed
a disorderly house or place. This now
only applies to the cities of London and
Westminster, and to places within 20
miles of them.

INLAND REVENUE-SURVEYORS OF
TAXES.
SIR HENRY MEYSEY THOMPSON
(Lincolnshire, Brigg) asked Mr. Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, Whether Sur-
veyors of Taxes are paid poundage on
the amount of Income Tax collected in
their districts?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER) (Wol-
verhampton, E.): No; surveyors of
taxes are salaried officers, and are not
paid poundage on the amount of Income
Tax collected.
INLAND REVENUE DEPARTMENT-
CUSTOMS CLERKS.
COLONEL MAKING (Essex, S.E.) asked
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Is it
true that, in 1877, when the Inland
Revenue Department, Somerset House,
was reorganised under the Playfair
Scheme, an actuary was employed by
the authorities to calculate the exact
amount of compensation due to each
clerk whose prospects had been inter-
fered with by the re-organization; and,
whether such compensation was forth-
coming, in the shape of an immediate
increase of salary; if so, is the Trea-
sury prepared to similarly deal with the
case of the ex redundant Customs' clerks
who were distinctly promised speedy
promotion. to induce them to join the
Outdoor Branch, but whose prospects
have since been almost destroyed by the
abolition of a large number of surveyor-
ships ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER) (Wol-
verhampton, E.): No actuary was em-
ployed by the Inland Revenue Depart-
ment to calculate the exact amount of
compensation due to clerks whose pros-
pects had been interfered with by the
re-organization under what is called the
Pla.fair Scheme. Calculations were
made by the Inland Revenue Depart-
ment as to the loss of prospects by
certain existing clerks owing to the
abolition of the class system and the
consequent loss of jumps," or increase
J.3. Childers


of salary on promotion from class to
class, and in making their calculations
the Board of Inland Revenue conferred
with Mr. Vaughan, the actuarial clerk
of the Board of Trade. The Treasury
compensated the clerks for the loss of
"jumps by an immediate addition to
their salaries, restricting, however, their
maximum pay to 380, the maximum of
the old seniority class. No promise of
speedy promotion was ever made to in-
duce the redundant Customs clerks to
join the outdoor branch, nor was there
any understanding that the number of
surveyorships would not be reduced if
found too large for the requirements of
the Service. In fact, many of the re-
dundant clerks only joined the outdoor
service when the alternative was placed
before them of doing so or being placed
on the pension list.

THE DUCHY OF CORNWALL-
COMPENSATIONS.
Mn. BRADLAUGH (Northampton)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury,
Whether the Treasury minute of 15th
February 1839 (directing that, from the
5th April 1841, the sum of 630 14s. 2d.
should be deducted from the annual
amount of 16.216 15s. lid. paid to
the Duchy of Cornwall), was not laid
before both Houses of Parliament on
the 19th April 1839, pursuant to 1 and2
Vie. c. 120, ss. 6 and 7; whether by s. 6
of the said statute the Commissioners of
Her Majesty's Treasury were directed to
grant such compensation as seemed to
them just and proper, and by s. 7 to lay
before Parliament a return showing the
amount of the compensation so granted
by them ; whether the Treasury minute
of 15th February 1839 was ever formally
.revised and at what date; whether such
revision was ever communicated to Par-
liament on that occasion; and, whether
he will lay upon the Table a Copy of
the objections taken on behalf of the
Duchy of Cornwall to such annual
deduction of 630 14s. 2d. and a copy
of the Treasury minute on such deduc-
tions ?
THE -ECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER) (Wol-
verhampton, E.): The Treasury Minute
of the 15th of February, 1839, was laid
before both Houses of Parliament on
the 19th of April, 1839, under the Act 1
& 2 Fict. c. 120, s. 7. The compensation
referred to in Section 6 of the Act is


31 Thle Duchy


'ICOMMONSI






{MARCH 26, 1886} Conspiracy and Divorce. 34


compensation to officers whose emolu- subject to the law of that country as re-
ments were affected by the operation of gards inspection and certificates. I may,
the Act, but does not affect the payment however, state that as regards ships'
to be made to the Duchy of Cornwall. boats, the United States have adopted
The Minute was never formally revised; a rule that requires no increase to the
but, as I stated last night, the Treasury boat accommodation carried by British
acquiesced in the view taken by the passenger ships. I am advised that it
Council of the Duchy of Cornwall, and is not possible for a steamer like the
have acted accordingly during the last Oregon to carry a larger number of boats
45 years. than she had with due regard to the safe
navigation of the vessel, the rapid and
MERCHANT SHIPPING-THE LOSS OF efficient lowering of the boats in sudden
THE "OREGON" CUNARD MAIL emergency, and their safe carriage in
STEAMER. bad weather. By our rule for mea-
MR. FORWOOD (Lancashire, Orms- during, the Oregon's boats could only
kirk) asked the President of the Board accommodate 365 persons; but, accord-
of Trade, If it is the fact that the Oregon, ing to the American statutory measure-
ment, the same boats could accommo-
in common with all steamers conveying the same boats d acommo-
passengers between this Country and date 1,216 persons, or 338 more than
the United States, had to obtain not the actual number of passengers who
only passenger certificates from the were on board the Oregon. But. as I
Board of Trade, but had also to undergo stated yesterday, I have appointed a
a periodical examination in the United Departmental Committee of practical
States by inspectors appointed by the men to inquire into the whole question,
Government of that Country, and that and as to how far boats may be supple-
no such vessel can obtain a clearance mented by rafts and other contrivances,
unless provided with a certificate from and to report to the Board of Trade and
theirinspectors thatshecomplieswith the to the Royal Commission on Loss of
American law as to efficiency of hull and Life at Sea.
engines, and as regards the sufficiency of SCOTLAND-TRAMWAYS FOR CROFTER
her boat accommodation, life saving, and DISTRICTS.
fire appliances, and that the same re- MA STEWART (Kirkcud-
quirements in these respects are imposed t t Secretary to the Trea-
on British ships by the United States bright) asked the Secretary to the Tcoean-
Law as apply to vessels under their own sury, whether the Government will con-
flag; and, whether he can state if it sent to the facilities for the formation
flag; and, whether lie can state if it
would be possible to require such a and working of Tramways given by the
vessel as the Oregon to carry a larger Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1883, being
number of boats than she had, with a due extended to those parts of cotland in-
regard to the safe navigation of the luded in the Crofters Bill of the Go-
regard to the safe navigation of the vernment now before Parliament?
vessel, to the rapid lowering of the boats ermen now before Parliam TEA-
when required, and to their safe carriage SURY (Mr. HENEY H. FOWLER) (Wl-
TinT PRESIDENT (Mr. MUvDELLA) verhampton, E.) asked the hon. Gentle-
(Sheffield, Brightside): As I came down man to postpone the Question, so as to
to the House to-day I received a tele- give time for its consideration.
gram from Messrs. Ismay, Imrie, and LAW AND JUSTICE THE LAW OF
Co., of Liverpool, who, I believe, are EVIDENCE IN CONSPIRACY AND
the owners of the Ore on. [Mr. FOR- DIVORCE.
wooD: No!] Well, they are large
owners of steamers running between MR. t. J. WILSON (Yor, W.R.,
this country and America. The tele- Holmfirth) asked Mr. Attorney General,
gram says- Whether, in a recent case in the Divorce
r at hav b dre t Mr. Court, it was decided that evidence upon
For' attention having been directed to r. which a respondent was found guilty of
Forwood's Question in The T'ines of to-day, which a respondent was found guilty of
beg to state that the facts he assumes are quite adultery was not receivable as against
correct, and in strict accordance with our actual the co-respondent; whether, in cases of
experience." conspiracy, it has been decided that evi-


I am informed that all passenger
steamers visiting the United States are
VOL. CCCIV. [THIRD SERIES.]


dence receivable against one prisoner is
receivable also against another prisoner
C


33 Law~ of -Eidenebe int






of Ireland. 36


who is jointly charged with that offence
whether it has also been decided that
where two persons are jointly charged
with conspiracy, both must be found
guilty or both acquitted; and, whether
he is prepared to take steps with a view
to making the Law of Evidence in cases
of adultery similar to the Law of Evi.
dence in cases of conspiracy ?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sit
CHARLES RUSSELL) (Hackney, S.): The
rule as to the non-admissibility ol
evidence mentioned in the first part ol
the Question is one which has been
recognized in every Court of Law
in the Kingdom, and is well estab-
lished. A statement made, as in the
case put, is evidence against the person
making it, but not against any other
person, if that person was not present
when it was made. This rule does not
affect the law relating to conspiracy,
which is as stated in the Question. I
see no reason, as at present advised, for
such an alteration in the rules of evi-
dence as the hon. Member proposes.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKE (Chel-
sea): With your permission, Sir, I
wish to throw myself upon the indul-
gence of the House while I say a few
words with, reference to the Question
which has just been asked. It is ap-
parently an abstract Question; but it
cannot but be taken as referring to the
case in which I was recently concerned.
I wish to ask the leave of the House to
appeal to the hon. Member who put the
Question that if he thinks right that the
matter should be mentioned here, he
should raise it in a form which would
enable me, in some way, to meet it in
the House.

GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND-POLICY
OF THE GOVERNMENT-THE
ULSTER LIBERAL CONVENTION.
Mn. DE COBAIN (Belfast, E.) asked
the First Lord of the Treasury, Whe-
ther he has received a copy of a resolu-
tion passed at the "Ulster Liberal Con-
vention on Friday last; and, if not,
whether he is aware that the resolution
stated that the Liberal party in Ireland
. would offer a most determined opposi-
tion to the establishment of a separate
Irish Parliament, as it would be certain
to produce a disastrous collision between
sections of the people holding conflicting
views on social, economic, and religious
subjects, and would produce a feeling of
Mr. i. J. Wilson


;insecurity which would jeopardise all
industrial and commercial pursuits, and
I that the maintenance of the Union be-
Stween Great Britain and Ireland was
Sthe best safeguard for the peace, pros-
perity, and liberty of all classes in Ire-
Sland; and, whether he would endeavour
Sto produce a copy and lay it upon the
Table of this House, the declaration of
the opinions from those who were the
adherents of the Liberal party in Ire-
land ?
MR. SEXTON (Sligo, S.): In refer-
ence to this Question, I would ask the
right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that
the resolution referred to was adopted
at a preliminary meeting only by a ma-
jority of one; if at the Convention itself
an amendment declaring confidence in
the right hon. Gentleman's Irish policy
was made the subject of a division; that
the chairman refused to ascertain in a
conclusive way the result of the divi-
sion; and that the mover of the amend-
ment and those who supported him
maintained that the amendment was in
reality supported by a large majority of
the Convention ?
THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. E.
GLADSTONE) (Edinburgh, Mid Lothian):
I have been made cognizant of the re-
solution to which the Question refers, and
I have also heard some statements with
regard to the proceedings at the meet-
ing at which the resolution appears to
have been adopted. I do not think it
my duty to enter into an examination of
those proceedings, and all that I have to
say is already covered by what I stated
on a former occasion-namely, that I
shall endeavour to see whether, from the
papers expressive of the views of im-
portant bodies in Ireland, a selection may
be made which would be instructive.

GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND-POLICY
OF THE GOVERNMENT.
SmI MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH
(Bristol, W.): I am anxious to ask the
right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of
the Treasury a Question with reference
to the statement made by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer yesterday. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer informed the
House that it was the intention of the
right hon. Gentleman on the 8th of
April to make a statement with respect
to his Irish policy. I wish to ask the
right hon. Gentleman if he can tell the
House in what form that statement will


35 Government


{ COMMONS}






87 Public Business-


be made; whether in such a form as to
admit of the subject being fully dis-
cussed, and, if necessary, of an issue
being taken upon it ? 1 shall be happy
to ask the Question on Monday if the
right hen. Gentleman requires Notice.
THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. E.
GLADSTONE) (Edinburgh, Mid Lothian):
Most certainly, Sir, I have no difficulty
in answering, in particular, the last part
of the Question. The statement will be
made in such a form as will admit of
debate, or of any course which hon.
Members may think fit to take. It will
place the subject completely under the
command of the House. The purport
of it will be to procure the opportunity
for the introduction of a Bill for the
future government of Ireland. I will
consider the particular form of the Mo-
tion, and lay its terms upon the Table
either on Monday or Tuesday.
THE ROYAL COMMISSION ON MINES
-THE REPORT.
In answer to Sir R. ASSHETON CROSS
(Lancashire, S.W., Newton),
THE SECRETARY or STATE FOR
THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. CHIL-
DEns) (Edinburgh, S.) said, that the
Report of the Commission on Mines had
been laid on the Table, and there would
be no delay in circulating it. He fully
expected to be able to introduce a Bill
founded on that Report and upon certain
other things immediately after Easter.
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-THE
ANTRIM ARTILLERY MILITIA.
MR. ALEXANDER BLAINE
(Armagh, S.) asked the Secretary of
State for War, Whether it is a fact that
the Antrim Artillery is to be trained at
Plymouth. this summer; and, whether
the necessary guns and appliances to
enable the men to obtain sufficient know-
ledge of their drill are still at Carrick-
fergus Castle, and whether there is an
excellent sea range for practice; if so,
would he state what is the object in
sending the regiment to England, at
considerable expense ?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
CAMPBELL-BANTERMAN) (Stirling, &c.):
It is the usual practice to train two
brigades of Artillery Militia yearly at
the large fortresses in the South of Eng-
land. This year the choice falls upon
the Antrim Artillery. It is only at large
fortresses of this class that there are


sufficient modern appliances as regards
guns, mountings, &c., for the effective
training of Militia Artillery in the use
of recent armaments.

OR1D]ER OF THE DAY.
-o-
SUPPLY.-COMMITTEE.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair."
PARLIAMENT PUBLIC BUSINESS -
THE ESTIMATES.
MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.
Mn. JOHN WILSON (Edinburgh,
Central), in rising to move,-
That a Select Committee be appointed to
consider the Estimates, in conjunction with the
Official Heads of Departments, before they are
submitted to the House,"
said, that the Prime Minister, in one of
his addresses to his constituents in
Mid Lothian, gave expression to these
words:-
"If you return a Parliament of the right
kind, finance is one of the first subjects which
must receive careful and close attention."
Now, he (Mr. J. Wilson) thought they had
here a Parliament of the right kind-
one specially able to deal with the ques-
tion of finance, for during the Election
Campaign most hon. Members, in ad-
dressing their constituents, dealt very
minutely with this question of finance;
and nearly all of them promised, if
elected, to give it their special and careful
consideration. It was only 14 or 15 years
ago since the Expenditure of the coun-
try was something under 70,000,000.
A few years later it rose to 80,000,000;
and he well remembered what a sensa-
tion the mention of that sum created
throughout the country. There were
Financial Reform Associations formed in
nearly every town; and these Associa-
tions and the newspapers discussed the
question of the growing gravity of our
financial Expenditure. Now they had
left 80,000,000 behind, and had reached
90,000,000. He was quite prepared to
admit that it was extremely difficult to
deal with this subject. It was a large,
far-reaching, and intricate question; but
it must be faced. There was a growing
impression throughout the country that,
by one means or other, some limit-and
that speedily-must beput on the increas-
C2


{MARcHt 26, 1886}


1Te ETinhmates.







39 Public Business-


ing financial Expenditure of the nation.
This was not a Party question. He was
aware that on the hustings it was some-
times made a Party question; but he did
not think either Party was identified
exclusively with economy in the finan-
cial Departments. He was bound to
say that, in looking into the history of the
administration of the country for some
years past, he was satisfied that the Gen-
tlemen who were now represented by
hon. Members opposite had on many
occasions evinced as much desire for
financial reform and administrative eco-
nomy as Gentlemen who were repre-
sented by hon. Members on the Liberal
side of the House. He was also bound to
to say that perhaps both Parties at times
had made financial blunders; but neither
of them was entitled to the exclusive
privilege or prerogative of being more
peculiarly economical in their adminis-
tration than the other. He had said
that this question must be faced; and
to-night he desired to raise a discussion
on the best method of dealing with their
growing Expenditure. Hon. Members
of the House would be aware, from
Returns recently placed in their hands
from the Accountant General, how close
and minute was the surveillance of the
outgoings of the Expenditure of the
country. They had also the Public
Accounts Committee -the Standing Com-
mittee of the House dealing with the
details of the Expenditure ; and on look-
ing back into the Report of that Com-
mittee for last year he was impressed
with the singular minuteness with which
the accounts of the country were exa-
mined. In the Comptroller General's Re-
portlatelyissued there was again thesame
minuteness. In the list of outstanding
debts given he noticed an item of 3s. as
being due to the country by the Belgian
Government. It was not in more small
details of the Estimates that a reduction
of the Expenditure of the country could
be effected. It was rather in the initia-
tion or inception of Expenditure. Hon.
Members had recently had a volume
of Estimates put into their hands,
comprising Votes varying from 1,000
to over 3,000,000; and he put it
to hon. Members, were they satisfied
when they came to vote the money that
they were able to discharge this great
public duty in the satisfactory manner
in which they thought it ought to be
done ? Personally, he did not feel com-
Mr. John Wlilon


petent to analyze the large items of
Expenditure which came before them in
the off-hand way that was at present ex-
pected from a Member of Parliament;
and as this must be the feeling of many,
he thought some change in the mode of
handling the Estimates was absolutely
necessary. There were various sugges-
tions as to how this should be done. He
had noticed in the newspapers that cer-
tain suggestions had been made by the
Government to the Procedure Commit-
tee, with the view of a portion of the
Estimates being remitted to a Special
Finance Committee to be afterwards ap-
pointed. Therefore, the principle of
remitting the Estimates in whole or in
part to a Committee for examination had
been practically acknowledged.
MR. RAIKES (Cambridge Univer-
sity): I rise to Order. I wish to ask
whether the hon. Member is in Order in
referring to what he supposes to have
taken place in a Committee upstairs ?
MB. SPEAKER: The hon. Member
is not in Order in referring to what has
taken place in a Committee until the
Committee has reported.
MR. JOHN WILSON said, he might
put the matter in another way. Instead of
adopting his method of dealing with the
question, it might be suggested that the
Estimates ought to be brought, in the
first place, before the House, and then
sent to a Committee; but he thought
the mode he proposed was preferable to
that. The Committee he proposed for
the consideration of the Estimates could
call the officials and heads of Depart-
ments before it, and examine them to
see whether the Estimates were properly
and economically framed. Hon. Mem-
bers who by their training could bring
the special knowledge of details to bear
would be able to subject the officials to
a much more thorough examination than
the mere head of a Department could
possibly do. On the Navy Estimates,
the other evening, for instance, the hon.
Member for Leith (Mr. Jacks) pointed
out several matters of detail which only
a practical shipbuilder could have done.
In the same way, if his suggestion were
adopted, other hon. Members could
bring minute knowledge of details to
bear upon the investigation of the Esti-
mates before they were submitted to the
House. During the discussion on the
Naval Estimates, the House was told it
was not so much a question of expense


{COMMONS}


The Estimatecs. 40






41 Public Business-


as efficiency that was desired; and yet
three eminent naval authorities variously
estimated the additional sum necessary
to put the Navy into a satisfactory con-
dition at 2,000,000, 5,500,000, and
11,000,000. How could hon. Members
decide the question of efficiency when
naval authorities differed so widely?
During the past five years the country
had spent 60,000,000 on the Navy;
and yet we were told we had not a
line-of-battle ship which could face a
foe, and we had not a single gunboat
which could be relied upon. Had that
60,000,000 been spent under the
supervision of such a Committee as he
had suggested he was satisfied such
complaints would not have been made.
Another reason in favour of his Motion
was that the House would have the
assurance that the Estimates would
come before it under the examination
of a large number of hon. Members.
Members did not attend the discussion
on the Estimates, not from want of inte-
rest, but through incompetency to deal
with the large sums involved in the
wholesale way in which the Estimates
now came before the House. It was
that feeling of inability which deterred
so many hon. Members from taking part
in the discussions on the Estimates.
The Government, of course, were re-
sponsible for the Estimates; but he did
not think that if his plan were adopted
there would be any infringement of Go-
vernment responsibility. They could
still draft the Estimates. They would
have the suggestions of this Committee,
which they could adopt or not as they
pleased; and by-and-bye they would
come before the House with the Report
of the Finance Committee, and the
House would then deal with the Esti-
mates in the usual way, so that neither
would the responsibility of the Govern-
ment be lessened, nor the independence
of the House forestalled. As to the
composition of the proposed Committee,
he would make it large and representa-
tive. It would, of course, require to be
large, because it would be necessary, no
doubt, to appoint sub-Committees. The
majority would require to be in sym-
pathy with the Government of the day;
but at the same time there would be a
large proportion of hon. Gentlemen from
the Opposition. He had brought his
Motion forward with the simple desire
to draw the attention of the House to


the matter of our Expenditure. He
thought the time was most opportune.
They had the Estimates before the
House, and this question was also be-
fore the Committee on Procedure; and
he thought a discussion on the best
method of dealing with the Estimates
would be instructive, not only to the
House, but to the country at large.
MR. MASON (Lanark, Mid), in rising
to second the Motion, said, every econo-
mist in the country who had watched
the alarming increase of the Expendi-
ture during the last 10 years felt that
the time had come when a stand must
be made to put a check upon the extra-
vagance of the Public Services. The
method proposed by this Motion of his
hon. Friend (Mr. John Wilson), he be-
lieved, commended itself to those hon.
Members having a practical knowledge
of commercial undertakings on a large
scale, and, indeed, of daily business
life. It had long appeared to him, and
to many gentlemen outside the House
of Commons, that it was almost a hope-
less task for any individual Member to
succeed in cutting down an Estimate
after it had been adopted by the Govern
ment of the day; and he feared that
Ministers, who were responsible to the
Government for the Estimates, were
very much guided, if not controlled, by
the official heads of the various Depart-
ments, whose sole object would appear
to be to swell the Estimates year by
year. Governments came and Govern-
ments passed away; but the official
heads went on for ever, and proved to
be too strong for the transitory Minis-
ters. This year's Estimates were, in
the opinion of many hon. Members, dis-
gracefully too high, more -particularly
those for the Army. 18,250,000 ster-
ling for the Army in a period of peace,
when the country was suffering acutely
from trade depression, was calculated
to arouse a just and bitter feeling of
hostility against the governing classes.
By comparing the Estimates of the pre-
sent year with those of 10 years ago
they found a very striking contrast in-
deed. In 1875 the Civil Service, the
Army, and the Navy Estimates were
40,000,000 sterling. The amount
asked for in the Estimates lately issued
to the House were, in the aggregate, the
enormous sum of 50,000,000 sterling.
Now, what was there to justify this
great increase over the Estimates of


JMAncri 26, 18861


nhe EstUnlateg. 42







43 Public Businiess- {


1875 ? He (Mr. Mason) knew they
would be told that the Education Vote
was so much more; and no one, he be-
lieved, grudged that. Then it was said
our weapons of war are so much supe-
rior now, and that scientific discoveries
travel so rapidly we are constantly re-
quiring to renew them. There were
also many other stock arguments made
to do duty which he need not allude to.
But all these did not explain the real
cause. Sheer waste, gross mismanage-
ment, and extravagance would be much
nearer the actual truth. Of course,
many of the new hon. Members, of
which he was one,'composing a majority
of the House, had not yet been initiated
into all the mysteries of knowing "how
not to do it; but they were at a loss,
to understand why a Lieutenant in the
Army must retire at 40 years of age,
and a Captain at the same age, a Major
at 48, and a Lieutenant-Colonel at 55,
all on half-pay. Others must take'their
places on full pay. The country had
by this stupid system to pay one and
a-half times for its officers in the Army,
and these gentlemen who were forced
to retire were burdened with a miserable
life of idleness and half-starved into the
bargain, and the country was burdened
by finding the money to keep them in a
state of misery. But what struck him
and others as business men was this-
why there should be an enormous in-
crease when, in the ordinary course and
natural order of things, there should
have been a large decrease ? Every-
one was fully aware of the great fall
in the value of all commodities except
gold which has taken place during the
last decade. Prices of all the supplies
which Her Majesty's Government re-
quired must have fallen not less than
from 30 to 50 per cent. As an illustra-
tion, ships could now be built on the
Clyde 30 to 40 per cent less than they
could have been built for 10 years ago.
Whether such was the case in Her Ma-
jesty's Dockyards he could not say.
But if not, why not? Probably some
Member of the Government would be
able to explain. These Estimates are
most unsatisfactory, and very disappoint-
ing to many hen. Members who were
hopefully looking for reduced Estimates.
But they were told the Government-
that is the present Government-were
not to blame for these bloated Esti-
mates; they were the work of their
Jfr. .1Mason


Predecessors in Office. The country
would learn, then, the penalty it had
had to pay for a few months of Tory
rule. What might it not have been if
years had elapsed instead of months ?
But if they must submit to pay for their
folly for this year, he very much misap-
prehended the temper of this new Parlia-
ment and the feeling of the country
if it did not demand that at least
10,000,000 should be struck off the
Estimates next year, which he believed
could be done without endangering
the defence of the country or interfering
with the proper efficiency of the Ser-
vices. Many hen. Members had come
there pledged to economy, and they
meant to act up to their pledges, because
They believed it to be a just and a wise
policy, and that this Finance Committee
would help the Government of the day
to carry it into effect. The new Mem-
bers were amazed with the minute de-
tails given in the Estimates of several
of the items, especially when they com-
pared these with the manner of passing
the Supplementary Estimates in con-
nection with Sir Drummond Wolff's
Mission to Egypt. There were 12,500
for expenses, and a like sum for tele-
grams, which, added together, gave
25,000. He (Mr. Mason) believed it
was considered on his side of the House
that the Mission was not worth 25
pence. But no explanation was given
of the large lump sum for telegrams;
and what amazed him and others was
that in the Civil Service Estimates he
found an item of 10 for a rat-catcher
at Windsor Castle. Surely if they got
details in the one case there ought to
be more in the other. They listened to
a very interesting debate the other
night on the Army Estimates; and
shortly after midnight the right hon.
Gentleman the Secretary of State for
War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) an-
nounced to a thin House-in fact a hand-
ful of hon. Members-that he wanted
18,250,000 sterling-a stupendous sum
-4,000,000 or 5,000,000 being voted
there and then. Now, it was an easy
matter to pass trippingly over the
tongue these vast sums, or even to vote
them. But it was not such an easy
matter to get the money from the in-
dustrial classes in these trying times.
Trade was bad, manufacturers' profits
had reached the vanishing point, de-
pressed agriculture, the labourers and


{COMMONS}


The Essthnates. 44






45 Public Bughincss-2


artizans of the United Kingdom-those
who really produced the wealth of the
country-had a difficulty in securing
employment; the Revenue no longer
went forward with leaps and bounds;
but rather it showed unmistakable signs
of going back. Was this, therefore, a
time to go on increasing our Expendi-
ture? A few weeks hence the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would have to
provide the Ways and Means. Either
he must continue to suspend the Sink-
ing Fund for the redemption of the
Debt or impose fresh taxation. If the
latter course were adopted, where was
the money to come from? Was it to
be an increase of the Income Tax, or
what? That, then, was the practical
outcome of these swollen Estimates, by
no means a pleasant one for the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, but far more
unpleasant to the poor unfortunate tax-
payers. The foreign policy of this
country had been greatly changed for
the better during the last 40 years;
imperceptibly, gradually, but yet surely,
caused by the commercial policy in-
augurated by the late lamented Mr. Cob-
den and the pure and noble-minded Sir
Robert Peel, and carried forward by the
right hon. Gentleman the senior Member
for Birmingham (Mr. John Bright), and
last, though not least, the present Prime
Minister. These great statesmen had
set in motion principles which were
silently revolutionizing the world. They
had altered and diverted the old aggres-
sive policy of this country, which was
promoted by the art of war into one
not less aggressive, but much more bene-
ficial, by the arts of peace. Why, then
again, he asked, in the face of such a
condition of things, should we be called
upon to vote Estimates which had no
parallel since the Crimean War? In-
stead of preparing constantly for war,
wasting our national resources, our first
duty should be to prepare for work.
Unquestionably our industrial power
was now the chief pillar of our strength.
Let that by any means be partially
struck with paralysis, and the foremost
place we now occupy amongst the na-
tions would be gone. Foreign competi-
tion of the fiercest kind was already
running us hard in the neutral markets
of the world; and not only so-the
home market was being evaded by the
foreigner. Every manufacturer felt it
keenly. But he was not so foolish as


to believe that Fair Trade nostrums
would give either one or any fellow-
manufacturers relief. He looked for
the remedy in quite another direction,
and that direction was economy. It
followed that whatever helped to lighten
the springs of industry should earnestly
engage our attention ; and, therefore, the
future taxation of the country must not
only be reduced, but made to fall more
heavily on realized wealth. This pro-
posed Finance Committee might consider
the sources of the National Income, and
help by suggestions to guide the Go-
vernment of the day as to the sources
of income, and the best method of rais-
ing the Revenue. It would not, as some
people supposed, relieve the Government
of any responsibility; neither would it
hamper the action of the House. Doubt-
less, if the Government went against the
finding of the Committee the House
would know the reason why; but in-
dividual Members would then be ably
assisted, cutting down the Estimates if
the Committee so decided, and the Go-
vernment would in that case have to
fight the Committee in the House. On
the other hand, if the Government and
the Committee were agreed a vast deal
of time wasted now in fruitless discus-
sion would be saved. There were three
things essentially necessary to enable
this country to maintain its position as
a first-class agricultural, commercial, and
manufacturing nation in Europe; and
these were-economical government, just
taxation, and perfect freedom of trade.
The last we had, in a large measure, al-
ready obtained; the second only to a
very partial extent indeed. The first, he
feared, was in the dim and distant future.
But if the House established this Com-
mittee it might help them to realize it,
although only to a limited extent, during
the present generation.
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That to the
end of the Question, in order to add the words
" a Select Committee be appointed to consider
the Estimates, in conjunction with the Official
Heads of Departments, before they are sub-
mitted to the House,"--(Mr. John Wilson (Edin-
keivh,)
-instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words
proposed to be left out stand part of the
Question."
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-
QUER (Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT)(Derby):


JMaxcci 26, 18861


The Estimantes. 46








Sir, I can assure my hon. Friends the would make the Committee of the House
Mover and Seconder of this Resolution partners in the responsibility of the Go-
that they will always find, at least in the vernment, which, I think, would be a
individual who happens to fill the Office most dangerous and mischievous thing,
which I have the honour to hold, a strong and I am not at all sure that the result
sympathy with the objects which they would be economy. I think it is just as
have at heart. There was never a time, likely, by relaxing the responsibility of
I think, when it was more essential that the Government, to lead to extravagant
this country should consider, and con- expenditure. How can you be sure that
sider most carefully, the extent of its all the Members of that Committee
Expenditure. It has grown to a point would be economists? I do not find
which it has hardly ever reached before, that economy is recommended on one
I am speaking now of the normal Ex- side of the House much more than on
penditure, not of the extraordinary Ex- the other, because I have heard demands
penditure upon particular occasions. ofallkindsfrombothsidesoftheHouse-
But I am not going to enter upon that demands which I have had to resist upon
great question now at any length-it one side as well as on the other, though
will be my duty to bring that before the they may be all for admirable objects. I
House at a later period; still less am I have been perfectly appalled at the de-
going to follow my hon. Friend who mands made in discussion of such a Bill,
seconded this Motion-the discussion on for instance, as the Crofters Bill and
taxation and the incidence of taxation. upon other subjects. Then you may
That, again, will belong to another occa- have a Committee which would propose
sion. But I agree myself very much expenditure. [Sir JOSEPH M'KExNA :
in the opinion of the Mover and the Se- Hear, hear!] I do not know if the hon.
conder that this House does not, and Baronet desires that such should be the
under existing circumstances cannot, case. [Sir JosEPH M'KENNA: No.] You
give that examination to the Estimates may depend upon it that you had much
proposed by the Government in any- better keep the Government well in
thing like the measure which the House hand, well under control of the House,
ought to give. So far I entirely agree and to hold them responsible for the
with the Mover of this Motion. It would Estimates. If the Government does
be out of Order, as the right hon.Member not act as the House desires, the House
for Cambridge University (Mr. Raikes) can deal with them. And I am sorry to
has pointed out, that I should refer to any say that I believe that the increased Ex-
particulars of what is going on in the penditure has been quite as much the
Committee of Procedure upstairs; but I doing of this House in recent years as of
think it would not be out of Order for the Government; and you may depend
me to say that the question of how the upon it that, as soon as ever Governments
Estimates should be dealt with is one of discover that the House of Commons de-
the subjects which is under the considera- sires economy, you will have economical
tion of that Committee, and I hope my Governments But as long as you have
hon. Friend will be content, at least, to demands made-it may be one day for
wait until that Committee- which is a increased pay for the Civil Service, one
very competent Committee, with great day for one thing and another day for
experience both in financial affairs and another-all for most admirable objects,
also in the Business of this House-will but which, all combined, lead to the
have an opportunity of fully discussing growth of immense expenditure-so long
and sifting this question, and reporting will you have expenditure growing. I
to the House on it. If I were to make do not think, therefore, it could possibly
any criticism on this Motion-which I be of any advantage to make this exa-
hope it may not be necessary for me at mination beforehand ; because what
present to do at any length-I would would be the Estimates then when pre-
say that I cannot concur in the form, sented to this House? The Government
though Ido in the substance, of the Mo- could not be held to be responsible for
tion. As I understand the proposal, it them. You could not call the Govern-
is that the Estimates shall not be ex- ment to account, or censure them on ac-
amined by the House, but that they count of the Estimates. The Government
shall be examined beforehand by a would say -"It is your Committee's
Committee of the House. Well, that fault; they are partners with us." ft
The Chancellor of the Exchequer


{COMMONS}


Ths E86)natecs. 48


47 Publaic Businecss--






4M hospitall PFund. 50


would be a sort of Adam and Eve trans-
action between the Government and the
Committee with reference to any trans-
gression in the Estimates. Therefore I
do not think that particular form of pro-
ceeding advocated by my hon. Friends
the Mover and Seconder of this Resolu-
tion would conduce to the object they
have at heart. There is another objec-
tion. The objection which I have spoken
of is a Constitutional revolution. It is
a sin against the fundamental principle
laid down by the Prime Minister the
other night, because it amounts to the
overthrow of the doctrine of Ministerial
responsibility in recommending expendi-
ture. There is another objection of a
minor character. The proposal of my
hon. Friends would require a complete
alteration in the whole framework of the
Business of the House, because the Es-
timates, by our Standing Orders, must
be laid on the Table 10 days after the
opening of the Committee of Supply,
and an investigation of this character
must last over many weeks; and, there-
fore, the House itself would not get the
Estimates till a later period in the Ses-
sion. It would alter the whole character
of our proceedings; and I, therefore, do
not think that this antecedent examina-
tion is one which we could accept. As
to the subsequent examination of the
Estimates by a body set apart for the
purpose, I very much myself concur in
that idea. I do think there ought
to be a much more careful examination
than we are able to give now to the Es-
timates. They should be examined both
in the whole and in detail. The exami-
nation in the whole-that is, the prin-
ciple of our Expenditure -ought to take
place in this House; but the examination
as to details might with advantage be
dealt with in Committee. I do not think
you can part with the jurisdiction of the
House in determining the great Votes
for the Services; but, as to the particu-
lars and details of the Estimates, I should
be very glad to see a more effective ma-
chinery for their examination. I hope
my hon. Friends will be satisfied with
this assurance, and will allow the matter
to be worked out by the Committee up-
stairs. I am sure, from the interest
which the House takes in this question,
the discussion which has taken place
upon it will be of a solid advantage.
MR. JOHN WILSON: I wish to ex-
plain that I gave Notice of this Motion


four weeks ago, before there was any
intimation of what the Government pro-
posed-
MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. Mem-
ber withdraw the Motion?
Mn. JOHN WILSON: Under the
assurance given I wish to withdraw the
Motion. ["No, no!"]
Question put, and agreed to.
Main Question proposed, That Mr.
Speaker do now leave the Chair."

GREENWICH HOSPITAL FUNDS.
OBSERVATIONS.
CAPTAIN PRICE (Devonport), in rising
to call attention to the distribution of
Greenwich Hospital Funds, said that, if
the Forms of the House would have
allowed'him, he should have been glad
to move the Resolution of which he had
given Notice, which was-
That, in order to keep faith with the Sea-
men and Marines who entered or re-engaged in
Her Majesty's Service under the Regulations as
to Greenwich Pensions laid down by the Order
in Council of the 9th day of September 1865,
the provisions of the said Order in Council
should be carried out."
At the last General Election this ques-
tion excited a good deal of interest at
the naval ports. When he formerly
brought the question before the House
it had not one-tenth of the importance
it had now. The number of seamen
and Marines affected by the Regulations
as to the Greenwich Hospital pension
was now much larger than a few years
ago; so that the funds of the Hospital,
which were some years ago fully ade-
quate to meet all the claims upon them,
were now insufficient, and there was
not enough to give pensions to all
persons eligible. It might be said that,
after all, it was only a small matter, as,
at the most, the Hospital pension only
amounted to 9d. per day. He could
assure hon. Members, however, that it
was by no means a small matter to the
persons affected. They were men ad-
vanced in years, very frequently unable
to do any sort of labour, and often this
pension was the only thing a man had
to look forward to. He knew cases in
which the small pittance was the only
means of support. Many men, in re-
liance upon the receipt of the pension at
the age of 55, had not made provision
for old age in benefit societies. Others,
through not receiving the pension, found


49 Ienuc


IMARorr 26, 18861






51 GreenwichC


themselves unable to continue their sub-
scriptions to such societies. There were
now about 3,000 men who were eligible
under the existing rules to pensions, who
had been looking forward to them all
their lives, and who now could not get
them; and as years went on that num-
ber would be increased. When the
Greenwich Hospital was disestablished
in 1865 a bargain was entered into with
the men. They were told that, for many
reasons, it was desirable to disestablish
the Hospital, but that their rights to it
were to be respected, and in lieu of
having this place to go to in their old
age they might remain outside the
Hospital and be granted a pension.
Certain Parliamentary Papers were pre-
sented the other day, one of which was
a copy of the Admiralty Circular of Sep-
tember, 1865. He was surprised, how-
ever to find that the Circular on which
the men founded their claim to a pension
-the Order in Council of 1865-had not
been presented to the House. lHe found
that the Paper which had been pre-
sented to Parliament was the copy of the
Admiralty Circular of September, 1865,
addressed to the in-pensioners; and he
was anxious to see whether the Repre-
sentatives of the Admiralty were going to
rest their case on the statements con-
tained in that Paper. It was desirable,
however, to remember that that Paper
also referred to out-pensioners. It is
stated on the part of the Admiralty that
any in-pensioner who was discharged
from the Hospital would receive the
same amount of out-pension as he re-
ceived when he came into the Hospital.
It also stated that the Act of 1865 autho-
rized the Lords of the Admiralty to pro-
vide that if a pensioner was 55 years of
age and had been a pensioner within or
out of the Hospital for a period of five
years he would obtain 5d. a-day and
an additional 4d. at the age of 70. It
was under those conditions that men
claimed a title to pensions. Theylooked
upon the disestablishment of the Hos-
pital and the promise of pensions as a
bargain that their rights in the Hospital
were to be respected by the granting of
pensions. Now, there could in his mind
be no doubt that the Order in Council
ought to be carried out; but, as he had
said, there had been a Circular issued by
the Admiralty which was headed to in-
pensioners," but which he contended
from the body of it referred clearly to
Captain Price


"out-pensioners; and this contention
he considered was proved by the fact
that it was issued side by side with the
Order in Council, which made no refer-
ence to in-pensioners at all; and, fur-
ther, there were at the time only about
1,400 "in-pensioners." TheCommittee
who had examined the question, and
upon whose recommendations the scheme
was based, expressly stated that the
number of pensioners who might be
interested in the scheme would probably
be about 5,000; so that it was prac-
tically clear, and proved to demonstra-
tion, that the Admiralty Circular could
not apply to in-pensioners only. In
1870, he might add, the Admiralty, in
a reply to a Memorial, stated over again
the conditions and amounts of pensions,
and added that there was no inten-
tion on the part of Her Majesty's Go-
vernment to depart from the promises
which had been made to all pensioners,
irrespective of any other pension which
they might be enjoying. It was clear,
therefore, that the Government had
made the promise, and that it referred
to the pensioners of the Hospital gene-
rally. But how was it that the funds
of the Hospital had not been sufficient
to give pensions to all the men who had
a claini upon them? He thought the
reason was to be found in the fact that
at the time of the disestablishment of
the Hospital and the institution of the
pensions which were to be aquid pro quo
correct calculations were not made by,
the Admiralty. Experience had shown
that the money had run out, and that
there was not sufficient now to give to
those pensioners who were eligible under
the rules. The next thing which was
done with the Greenwich funds was this.
The right hon. Gentleman the present
Home Secretary (Mr. Childers) formed
what was called a Pensioners' Reserve.
He found that the funds of Green-
wich Hospital were in a flourishing con-
dition; and he thought that it would be
an excellent thing to increase the Re-
serve Forces of the Crown, not at the ex-
pense of Imperial funds, but at the
expense of what was really a chari-
table endowment, or, as the Admiralty
themselves invariably designated it,
"a charity;" and that had been
done to the extent of some 3,000
or 4,000 a-year. In 1869, four years
after the disestablishment of the Hos-
pital, the right hon. Gentleman es-


{COMMONS }


fHospital Funds.






Hospital Funds. 54


tablished this Pensioners' Reserve.
whose remuneration was to be obtained
from the funds of Greenwich Hospital.
He arranged that those pensioners who
chose to join this Reserve and come up for
certain drills every year should receive a
pension from the fundsof GreenwichHos-
pital at the age of 50; whereas, if they
had not joined that Reserve, they would
have had to wait until the age of 55.
The right hon. Gentleman stated that
he had believed the number of pen-
sioners joining this Reserve would ulti-
mately reach 5,000 men, entailing a cost
on the Greenwich funds of 19,000
a-year. He (Captain Price) was glad to
say that the Reserve had been, to some
extent, a failure, and that it had only
drawn on those funds to the extent, as
he had said, of between 3,000 and
4,000 a-year. That was a consider-
able drain on the funds of Greenwich;
and he did not see why payment
should be made to the Naval Reserve
out of an endowment like the Green-
wich Hospital, instead of from the Im-
perial funds. He thought he should
say a word on another point. It
had been thought by some of the pen-
sioners that a great number of officers
were put into Greenwich Hospital
who had' no right to be there; and he
had often been asked-was it a fact
that officers were pensioned out of the
fund ? Well, the matter had been tho-
roughly thrashed out a great many years
ago, and it was found that although the
names of officers were not mentioned in
the Charter of the Hospital, yet from the
very first they were made inmates of the
Hospital, some being among the first 100
admitted ; and, therefore, it was clear
that they were considered as equally en-
titled as the men to the benefits of the
institution. Well, while he made that
admission, he should like to say this-
that if the pensions of the men were to
be restricted, the same restriction should
be made pro rata in the case of the
officers; and on this subject he had
himself founded a Motion some years
ago. Then he came to the responsi-
bility of Parliament in this matter. The
Admiralty were Trustees of the Hos-
pital; and if the Admiralty were Trus-
tees, they being under the control of
Parliament, it was tantamount to saying
that Parliament were the Trustees. The
men held that they had a right to these
pensions; but, on the other hand, the


representatives of the Admiralty main-
tained they had no right, and that these
pensions were given at the discretion of
the Admiralty. But the same might
be said of all pay and pensions paid
in connection with the Navy; and what
he wanted to know was-How was the
discretion exercised with regard to
Greenwich Hospital pensioners ? Nei-
ther he nor the men concerned meant to
contend that they had a legal right to
the pensions; but custom, to a great
extent, made the law, and was, indeed,
the foundation of the Common Law of
England; and such pensions had, at all
events, always been paid as a matter
of certainty from 1865 up to the year
1878. In what respect were these
Greenwich Hospital pensions more
under the discretion of the Admiralty
than any other pensions and pay ? The
seamen pensioners had never been told
that their pensions were at the discre-
tion of the Admiralty. It would na-
turally be asked, What would it cost
to satisfy the claims of those men eli-
gible for the Greenwich Hospital pen-
sions, but who did not get them, and
where was the money to come from?
He was informed that about 20,000
would be sufficient, and that amount
would have to be paid until all the
claims of those men were satisfied who
entered the Service prior to the year
1878. How was the money to be found ?
The funds of Greenwich Hospital had
been very carefully nursed, especially
in recent years; but he thought there
should be a re-investment. There was
the large sum of 1,500,000 of Green-,
wich Hospital property still invested
in Consols; and it would be wise to
re-invest 1,000,000 of that in some
securities, which would give a better in-
terest than Consols. He believed there
was no money invested in Australian,
Cape of Good Hope, or Canadian secu-
rities. Well, by re-investing the sum
he had referred to in those securities it
would give something like 7,000 or
8,000 a-year of the required sum.
Then, by the.Government giving up the
remuneration which they now gave to
the Pensioners' Reserve, and by placing
it as a charge on the Navy Estimates,
they might realize 3,000 a-year for the
purpose. There was another source from
which funds might be got. At Green-
wich there was a school in which pro-
vision was made for the support of 1,000


53 Greenwich.


IMAnRcII 26, 18861







Hospital Funds. 56


boys. The Government had a right to
enter these boys in the Navy; and, as a
matter of fact, something over 100 boys
entered the Naval Service from that
school. He would ask, why should not
the Government pay Greenwich Hos-
pital for these boys, as they did in other
cases ? The Government paid 25 for
each boy they got .from the training
ships in the Thames or other places;
but there was not even a Government
grant given to this school. If the Go-
vernment would pay for these boys, it
would give 2,500 towards the 20,000
which he maintained was necessary.
Finally, if the age for second instal-
ments was changed from 65 years of
age to 70, that would release another
4,000 a-year, making in all nearly
about the entire amount. It might be
said that the pensioners themselves
would not like this; but he had taken
the opinion of the pensioners to the best
of his ability, and he knew that the men
themselves were willing that it should
be done. A Petition had been sent to
the Admiralty from Devonport and Ply-
mouth, in which that had been one of
the suggestions. If the sum could not
be provided from the funds of the Hos-
pital, Parliament had a deep responsi-
bility with regard to the whole of the
question ; and, sooner than break faith
with the seamen, it should ask for money
from the Consolidated Fund if it could
not be found in the manner in which lhe
had suggested. He was quite sure that
Parliament would do wisely in looking
into this matter, with a view to keeping
faith with the pensioners.
Mn.VANDERBYL(Portsmouth) said,
he had much pleasure in seconding the
Motion which had been proposed by the
hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite
(Captain Price). The fact that the Mover
and the Seconder sat on different sides
of the House showed that this was no
mere Party question. In his own con-
stituency there were at least 2,000
naval pensioners interested; and he
knew that there was a great deal of
dissatisfaction and soreness prevailing
in regard to it. They were under the
impression that the funds of Greenwich
Hospital were created in their interest,
and that the terms on which they en-
tered the Navy, according to the Order
in Council of 1865, entitled them to
pensions; and they felt that the pro-
mises then made should be carried out.
Captain P i ce


The hon. and gallant Gentleman oppo-
site, in stating the case of the naval
pensioners, said that he was not a
lawyer; bat he (Mr. Vanderbyl) thought
he was justified in saying that, if there
was not an express contract, there was
an implied contract; and, that being so,
he did not think that the Admiralty
would be justified in ignoring an ar-
rangement considered equitable and fair
when it was entered into. He might
remind the House that before the Com-
mittee, over which the Duke of Edin-
burgh had presided on the subject,
Captain Holland had said that it was
most desirable that the soreness of the
naval pensioners on this question should
be overcome; and Captain Chanwick,
of the American Navy, had expressed
himself to the effect that a large body
of naval pensioners, going back to the
places where they came, acted as a
leaven through their discipline, re-
sources, energy, and honesty among
other classes. It was essential that a
just grievance of that kind should be
remedied. There was just one other
point with which he would trouble the
House. On going into Hospital re-
ductions had been made from the pen-
sions of the men disproportionate to
the reductions made from the pensions
of the officers; and he ventured to sub-
mit that if it was necessary that those
reductions should be made it was only
right and fair that the reductions should
be madein the same proportion all round.
If the special pensions were done away
with there would be more money for
the regular seamen, who were so well
entitled to their pensions. With those
few remarks, he begged to second the
Motion of the hon. and gallant Gentle-
man.
SIR JOHN GORST (Chatham) said,
that it was the duty of the Lords Com-
missioners of the Admiralty, as Trustees
of this charitable fund, to endeavour to
make the most profitable investment of
these funds, to protect the property from
any misappropriation; and, in the third
place, so to regulate their management
that they did not hold out any expecta-
tions to the seamen which they were not
able to perform. If some private person
were Trustee of that property, and had
to administer it for the benefit of the
pensioners, he would probably sell the
buildings and site, and invest the pro-
ceeds for the benefit of the persons in-


55 GreenivuicA


{COMMONS}








terested. But, the Trustees being the of men into the Service, because there
Board of Admiralty, it was proposed to was a widespread feeling that the Admi-
let the buildings at the absurdly inade- ralty had not kept faith with the seamen,
quate rent of 100 a-year. The amount and had by a legal quibble attempted to
of money which was by that means deprive them of their just rights. He
diverted from its proper and legitimate objected altogether to the Government
object was no less than 3,000 per proposal that the pensions hitherto en-
annum, and he asked the Secretary to joyed by seamen when they attained 55
the Admiralty to put a stop to that. He or 70 years of age should be converted.
had in vain repeatedly asked for an ex- into special pensions, which would in-
planation of this singular course of ac- evitably be conferred by favour upon
tion. It was nothing less than a mis- those who had friends in that House or
application of the funds to let the in the Service, instead of upon poor and
buildings for the purpose to which they friendless men. He entirely denied that
were applied at this nominal rent. The the fund was now better administered
Seamen and Seamen Pensioners' Reserve than it had been before; and he thought
Force had been proved before H.R.H. that it was a mistake, in these days of
the Duke of Edinburgh's Committee to Board Schools, to deprive the old men of
be practically a failure. There were their pensions in order to increase the
only 6,750 men in the force, and it was grant to the schools from 22,000 to
certainly a misappropriation to apply 29,000. If the magnificent property
the fund in any way for the benefit of at Greenwich were to be kept intact it
the active service. Then they ought to should be at the expense of the nation,
pay for the boys who were trained for and not of these poor old sailors. If the
the Navy just as they paid any other funds were carefully administered and
training ship or school. He would ask allocated alone to the purposes for which
that the steps taken should be retraced, they were intended in 1805 there would
and that the fund should henceforth only be no necessity to ask for a contribution
be applied to its proper purposes. Then from the Consolidated Fund, and there
an obvious breach of faith had been would be ample means of giving the
committed against the Greenwich pen- poor men that which they honestly and
sioners. The terms of the pensions had truly believed was their right.
been settled in 1870, and it was ex- SIR WILLIAM CROSSMAN (Ports-
pressly provided that the pensions to be mouth) said, he thought that the differ-
provided out of the fund should be in ence between 152,000, the income of
addition to any others to which the pen- the Hospital, and 145,000, the amount
sioners had been entitled. But now all of the expenditure namely, 7,000,
were to be reduced to a dead level, and together with other sums referred to in
the promises made in 1870 had not been the Report of the Duke of Edinburgh's
fulfilled. He hoped they would hear Committee, would be sufficient to pro-
nothing about legal obligations of the vide for these pensions. If the funds
Admiralty. It was not a question of did not admit of the whole amount
legal obligation, but of honour. It was being paid, the Chancellor of the Exche-
the duty of the Board of Admiralty, who quer would not refuse to grant the very
had this large property under their small sum that would be required to
charge, to administer it for the benefit complete the amount from the Consoli-
of the pensioners. If they let the pro- dated Fund.
perty at all, it was obvious that it should SIR EDWARD BATES (Plymouth)
be let at its full value, and the proceeds said, that they had had the opinion of a
devoted to the objects of the fund. He Naval Officer. and also a legal opinion
earnestly hoped that the Board would from the late Solicitor General. He would
consider the matter in a generous spirit, now give the House a mercantile opinion.
and if they did so they would see that If the statements made by the hon. and
the complaints which had been made gallant Member for Dovouport (Captain
were not ill-founded. Price) were correct, which he verily be-
Sin JOHN COMMIERELL (South- lived them to be, he would only say,
ampton) said, that this question was a speakingasamercantileman,thatueither
burning one among a very large num- he nor any other mercantile manof stand-
her of seamen, and would in the future ing would deny that there had been a
have a great deal to do with the entry gross and wilful misapplication of the


57 Greenwich


JMAHCIiI 26, 18861


lfo2pital Tund&s 58







hospital Funds. 60


funds applicable to these pensions. The
idea of letting Greenwich Hospital for
100 a-year was simply folly. The Go-
vernment had better have taken the
place for nothing than have committed
an act of that kind. Instead of invest-
ing these funds in the Three per Cents
the Admiralty should have invested
1,000,000 of them in the Guaranteed
Four per Cents which had been lately
issued. They would then have more
than enough to give these men their
right and their due. He had given them
now what he considered a mercantile
opinion, and he should be glad if the
hon. Gentleman the Civil Lord of the
Admiralty (Mr. Duff) would state that
after what he had heard that night he
gave the matter a full and favourable
consideration.
ADmIHALFIELD (Sussex, Eastbourne)
said, he protested against the fact that
in the question of the legal right to these
pensions the Admiralty had acted as
judges in their own cause. A good deal
had been said about finding ways and
means to meet the extra charge involved;
but he had to point out that there was a
fund which actually belonged to the sea-
men of the Fleet, andthat was the savings
on the provisions of the Fleet. These
savings, he believed, amounted to some-
thing like 34,000 annually, which would
meet the extra charge and leave a balance
of 14,000 besides. That fund, belong-
ing not to the nation, but to the sea-
men, ought to be applied for the benefit
of the seamen. This was a question of
contract, and any departure from the
spirit of the Circular of 1865 was a
breach of faith utterly unworthy of any
Department.
Smn JOHN SWINBURNE (Stafford-
shire, Lichfield) said, that when urging
seamen to remain in the Navy on account
of the good pensions which had been
promised them, he had frequently been
met with the rejoinder that the promises
might be altered any day by an Order
in Council. The men said they were never
sure of getting what had been promised
them. In his own experience he had had
to wait no less than 16 years before he
received some small prize money to
which he was entitled. That was a usual
occurrence, and he wished to impress on
the House that these things rankled in
the breasts of the seamen. Even in a
financial point of view, there was no
more expensive way of engaging men
Sir Edward Bates


for any employment than to do so under
circumstances in which the men had not
confidence that faith would be kept with
them. He hoped the Government would
look at the matter not from a strictly
legal, but from a point of view in every
sense of the word liberal.
THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMI-
RALTY (Mr. R. W. DUFF) (Banffshire)
said, that the subject raised by the hon.
and gallant Member for Portsmouth (Sir
William Crossman) was one of very great
interest totheNaval Profession, and espe-
cially to the men. He should like, in the
first place, to notice the point referred to
by almost every speaker, and that was the
assumed breach of faith on the partof the
Admiralty with regard to the Circular of
1865. Now, when Greenwich Hospital
was abolished there were two sets of
provisions. In the first place, there was
a Circular issued to the in-pensioners,
which said that any in-pensioner would
receive a specified amount per day "whe-
ther he is in or out of the Hospital."
But the naval pensioners who had formed
the subject of the present debate had
been dealt with in an entirely different
manner. They were dealt with by an
Order in Council, which was the outcome
of the Act 28 & 29 Vict., and issued in
1865. The Circular was very distinct
in its terms-
An extra pension of 5d. per day may, at the
discretion of the Lords Commissioners of the
Admiralty, be granted to seamen and Marines
now in receipt of pensions who are over 55 years
of age."
The two classes of pensions were quite
distinct. Now, with regard to the ori-
ginal Circular. When Greenwich Hos-
pital was abolished the intention was to
have a limit of 5,000. It was true that
was not stated in any Circular; but there

was no doubt about the intentions of
the Admiralty.
Notice taken, that 40 Members were
not present: House counted, and 40
Members being found present,
Mn. R. W. DUFF, resuming, said,
that things went on so until 1869, when
the maximum of 5,000 was exceeded.
In 1878 Sir Massey Lopes held the
Office which he (Mr. Duff) had now the
honour to hold. He spoke with the
greatest possible respect of Sir Massey
Lopes, whose personal friendship he had
the honour to claim, and who had left
behind him the character of a strong


59 Greenwzich


{ COMMONS }








Civil Lord of the Admiralty. But Sir the way in which the Admiralty dealt
Massey Lopes took too sanguine a view with Greenwich Hospital buildings, and
of the resources of Greenwich Hospital. thought that they ought to be sold.
The original intention might have been Under the Greenwich Hospital Act of
carried out, he believed, but for the 1869 power was conferred upon the
alterations made in 1878. In the first Admiralty to permit the buildings to
place, the age was reduced to 65 from be occupied temporarily for the pur-
70. That involved an increased charge poses of the Naval Service. When the
upon Greenwich Hospital of between Hospital was closed in 1869 these vast
10,000 and 12,000 a-year. Then buildings had to be maintained at the
200 boys were added to the school, charge of Greenwich funds. The build-
which made another increase in charge ings were historical and of great archi-
to the amount of 5,000, so that about tectural merit, and it was not practicable
15,000 a-year more would have fallen to relieve Greenwich funds by selling
on the funds. The hon. and gallant the buildings or letting them for com-
Admiral the Member for Southampton mercial purposes. The cost of main-
(Sir John Commerell) was anxious to tenance was about 3,400 a-year. In
put a pensioner's coat on every seaman's 1873 the Admiralty decided to utilize
back; but you must cut your coat ac- the buildings for the purposes of a Naval
cording to the cloth. The hon. and College, and from that date all charges
gallant Admiral was on the Board in in connection with the buildings so ap-
1879, and he (Mr. Duff) did not find propriated had been transferred to naval
that any step was taken by the Col- funds. A nominal rent of 100 a-year
leagues of the hon. and gallant Admiral was paid, and it was a condition that
in the direction now advocated, the buildingswere to be kept in thorough
SIR JOHN COMMERELL said, that repair, and might be re-occupied for the
he was not on the Board until the latter purposes of a hospital if required. With
part of 1879. regard to the Greenwich Hospital landed
MR. R. W. DUFF said, that they had estates the charge for management was
now reached the limits. They were al- no doubt very large. It came to 47 per
ready spending 98,000 a-year, and the cent. He might say that the Admiralty
scheme proposed would involve an ad- were considering the matter, with the
ditional 15,500, which would bring up view of seeing whether the charge could
the entire sum spent on pensions to not be reduced.
113,500. He did not think they would
be justified, having regard to the other Notice taken, that 40 Members were
charges, to spend 113,500 in that way. not present: House counted, and 40
The appropriation of Greenwich Hos- Members not being present,
pital was as follows :-Superannuationsouse adjourned at Eight o'clock
and maintenance of painted hall, &c., till onday next.
2 per cent; pensions to officers and
education allowance to children, 5,1 per
cent; pensions to seamen and Ma'rines,
and maintenance in hospitals, 64, per HOUSE OF LORDS,
cent; education of children of seamen,
&c., 21 per cent; pensions to widows, l1onday, 29th JlIarch,, 1886.
&c., and gratuities to relatives, 11 per
cent; cost of administration, 2 per
cent; surplus, 4 per cent; total. 100 MiNUTES. -PUI BiL-SeeodReadiTg-
per cent. The hon. and gallant Mem- Sporting Lands Rating (Scotland) (36).
ber for Devonport (Captain Price) Second Reading--ommittee negatived-Con-
dwelt upon the question of granting solidated Fund (No. 2).*
3,000 a-year towards the pensions of Committee -Report--Drainage and Improve-
Reserves. That was a matter open to m"nt of Lands (reland) Provisional Order *
discussion. It had been before the Repot- Justices' Jurisdiction* (43); Law of
Admiralty, and all he could say was Evidence Amendment (44).
that it had been submitted to the Trea- Royal Assent-Consolidated Fund (No. 1) [49
sury, and was now under consideration. ViCt c. 4]; Marriages Validity [49 TVit.
The hon. and learned Member for Chat- 3]; Glebe Loans (Ireland) Acts Conti-
ham once [49 Vit. 6]; Drill Grounds [49 ieft.
ham (Sir John Gorst) found fault with c. 5].


61 Greeniwich


I Mancri 29, 18861


]Tospital Tnnds. 62







Cultivation of Tobacco. 64


GREAT BRITAIN-CULTIVATION OF
TOBACCO.
OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
LORD HARRIS, in rising to call at-
tention to the penalties imposed by cer-
tain Acts of Parliament on the cultivation
of tobacco in the United Kingdom, and
to ask Her Majesty's Government if
they will give facilities for experiments
being undertaken in its cultivation and
preparation ? said, the subject to which
he wished to call attention was one that
affected agriculture; and the serious and
deplorable condition of that great trade
at the present moment justified him, he
thought, in bringing it before such an
Assembly as the House of Lords, repre-
senting so thoroughly, so eminently, and
so practically as it did the great agri-
cultural interest, the more so as it pos-
sibly pointed out a direction in which, as
regarded certain parts of the country, a
remedy might be found for agricultural
depression. When he first considered
the subject, he thought it would be en-
tirely impossible not to ask for some
measure of protection. Close considera-
tion, however, had convinced him that it
was unnecessary to do that, and that all
he need ask the House was that the home
might be placed exactly upon the same
footing as the foreign producer. He
did not know whether their Lordships
were aware-he was quite satisfied the
general public was not aware-that in
England-Free Trade England-which
had endeavoured, unsuccessfully, it was
true, to cram Free Trade down the
throats of every other country, which
had strutted on the world's stage as the
one true exponent of thoroughly sound
commercial principles-Protection in its
rankest form existed. And for whom?
Not for the benefit of the English pro-
ducer or for the English farmer, but for
the benefit of the foreign producer. It
was the fact that the law of this country
enacted that a protective duty of no less
than 500 per cent should be given to the
foreign producer, and that the English
producer should not be allowed to grow
that particular plant. It had been ob-
jected that tobacco could not be grown
in England, and that the grower could
not compete against the import duty.
He did not require to rest his case on
mere theories. He should be able to
show that tobacco had been grown as
far North as Scotland; that it was cured


and prepared in the same country; that
at one time-unfortunately many years
ago-it was in considerable cultivation
in England, and that at the present day
in Belgium, whose climate approached
very closely indeed to that of England,
it was in most thriving cultivation. It
was not a question of competing with an
import duty. He would presume that
an Excise duty was put on equivalent to
the import duty; and then the question
was, whether they could produce an
article of equal quality to the worst
quality of tobacco introduced into this
country, and whether the price given for
that worst quality of tobacco was not
sufficient to leave a margin between the
cost of production and the selling price.
There was one other objection raised,
and that was that we had not sun enough
in this country in order to prepare to-
bacco for market. It was a mistake,
however, to suppose that all tobacco in-
troduced into the market in England
was sun-dried. There was large quan-
tity sold in the market very readily
which was dried, both in America and
Belgium, in open air shades by a system
of wood fires, and there was no reason
why the same should not be done here.
He would shortly call attention to the
anomalous Statutes by which the culti-
vation of tobacco in this country was
prohibited. By 12 Ch/ar/es II., c. 34,
it was enacted that-
No person after January 1. 1660, shall set
or plant any tobacco under penalty of forfeiture
of crop and of 40s. per rod of ground so planted."
That was equivalent to a duty of 320
per acre. This penalty failing to stop
the cultivation of the plant another Act
was passed-the 15 Charles II., c. 7,
ss. i5, 16, and 17-by which the tax of
320 was raised to 1,600 per acre, and
that existed to the present day. The
Act 22 & 23 Charles II. imposed a fur-
ther penalty of 5s. on all officers in
whose district tobacco was found under
cultivation, and that measure seemed to
have had the effect of stopping the cul-
tivation of the plant in England. The
*22 Gro. III. recited 12 Charles II., and
extended its provisions to Scotland. The
1 & 2 Will. IV., c. 13, repealed the Act
19 Geo. III.-which he could not find-
For repealing so much of several Acts as
prohibit the growth and produce of tobacco in
Ireland, and to permit the importation of
tobacco of the growth and produce of that
kingdom into Great Britain."


{LORDS}


63 Great Britain--






{MAncI 29, 1886} Cultivation of Tobacco. 66


Sir John Sinclair, in his General Report
of Scotland, stated that-
During the AmericanWarthisarticle of very
generally diffused luxury became so dear that se-
veral unsuccessful attempts were made in Scot-
land for its cultivation. The chief seat of that
new culture was in the neighbourhood of Kelso,"
whern it succeeded so well that 161 statute
acres at Crailing brought 104, or 6 7s. 4d.
per acre, being purchased by the Government
at 4d. per pound."
From the Agricultural Survey of the
County of Roxburgh, dated 1794, it ap-
peared that-
Tobacco was first grown at Newstead, and
eventually many hundred acres of land were
cropped with it. The profits were amazingly
great; but an Act of Parliament put an entire
stop to its cultivation."
Sir John Sinclair in 1830 expressed his
opinion, derived from the experiments
of 1782, that tobacco might be grown at
considerable profit. Mr. Train also gave
evidence that land let for tobacco culti-
vation used to let at 5 an acre when
other land was only fetching 2. The
growth of the plant was carried on in
six English shires and five Scotch. But
the crop was never much cultivated in
Ehgland because the statutory prohibi-
tion had been continuously in force,
whereas it was for some time taken
off in Ireland and Scotland. But in-
dividual experiments in gardens and
small areas had been made from time to
time with considerable success. A more
extensive experiment was made in the
Vale of York for a few years before
1782, which had to be abandoned be-
cause the penalties laid amounted to
30,000. As we had long since lost the
Colonies on whose behalf the heavy
tobacco duty was imposed it seemed
unreasonable to continue the duty in the
present day. In Ireland the duty was
removed in 1822, but was reimposed
about 1830. By 1829 or 1830 there
were no fewer than 1,000 acres under
tobacco cultivation ; but upon that ques-
tion he might refer their Lordships to
the evidence given before the Commis-
sion of 1832. The effect of that evidence
shortly was that an average crop was
1,000 lbs. an acre, and the average cost
of production from 20 to 30; that a
great improvement was noticed in the
condition of the people where it was
grown ; that three crops could be taken
off the land in as many years, and
that it was an excellent preparation for
cereal crops. It might be questionable
VOL. CCCIV. [TIUID SERIES.]


whether, if cultivated in this country,
tobacco would bear a duty of 3s.- 6d.
per lb.; but it must be remembered that
we were rapidly becoming accustomed
to a much smaller margin of profit than
was required by our forefathers. He
would read a short and amusing extract
from Fairholt, which showed the advan-
tages which had formerly accrued from
the cultivation of tobacco in this coun-
try-
It had been extensively grown in Gloucester-
shire, as appears from the following passage in
' Harry Hangman's Honour, or the Gloucester-
shire Hangman's request to the Smokers and
Tobacconists of London,' a quarto pamphlet in
the King's Collection, June 11, 1655. He
says :-' The very planting of tobacco hath
proved the decay of my trade, for since it hath
been planted in Gloucestershire, especially at
Winchcourt, my trade hath proved nothing
worth.' He adds: Then 'twas a merry world
with me for indeed before tobacco was there
planted, there being no kind of trade to employ
men, and very small tillage, necessity compelled
poor men to stand my friends by stealing of
sheep and other cattel, breaking of hedges, rob-
bing of orchards, and what not.' "
He had also had the advantage of re-
ceiving a letter from a Flemish farmer,
dated the 12th instant. The writer said
that the best soil for tobacco growing
was a dark, rich, peaty, and not too stiff
soil in a well-sheltered locality. Manual
labour and much manure were required;
but when the manure was put in four
or five crops of cereals could be taken
with scarcely any additional dressing.
The writer generally sowed the seed in
the open, but said that hot beds were
preferable. The gathering took place
in September, and was performed by
adults, though children took part in cer-
tain subsidiary operations. The cost
was estimated as follows:-Manures,
17 9s. 4d.; labour,.17 9s. 4d; rent,
rates, and taxes, 5 6s. 8d.-total,
40 5s. 4d. To this had to be added a
duty of two centimes a plant, which was
much lower than the English duty. An
ordinary year yielded 2,700 lbs. an
English acre, of which 70 per cent was
first quality and 30 per cent second and
third quality. The first quality sold at
61d. per lb., and the second and third at
about 41d. The net profit was about
26 an acre. The industry had made
the fortune of the frontier town of Blan-
dain, and enabled it successfully to tide
over the present agricultural crisis. He
could not, of course, assume that so
large a crop could be raised in this
D


65 Great Britain--






Cultivation of Tobacco. 68


country as in Belgium; but even as-
suming the Irish average of 1,000 lbs.
an acre, and putting the cost of produc-
tion as high as 6Jd. per lb., the estimate
of the Excise officers as produced in
evidence in 1829, it was clear that a
good profit might be made out of
tobacco cultivation in this country. To-
bacco had been grown in Scotland and
in Ireland, and it was now grown suc-
cessfully in Belgium; and these figures
showed that we might be able to grow
it, and to have a profit of 8 per acre.
Even if this figure were too high an
enormous margin for profit still existed;
for the profit on 1 lb. weight of wheat,
at 40s. per quarter, and four quarters
of 60 lbs. per bushel per acre, only
came to Id., out of which had to be
paid rent, rates, and taxes; whereas
between 61d. per lb., the estimated cost
of producing tobacco, including rent,
rates, and taxes, and 8d. per lb., the
average present price of the very worst
quality of smoking tobacco, there was
a net profit of l1d. per lb. This was
a cultivation which might be under-
taken on small holdings, and conse-
quently it ought to be a subject of con-
siderable interest to noble Lords oppo-
site, because they belonged to a Party
prominent Members of which had im-
pressed on the mind of the agricultural
labourer the idea that they, and they
alone, were his friends. Perhaps the
most important question of all in con-
nectionwith this subject was the question
of the Revenue; and he admitted that
a Revenue which brought in from
8,000,000 to 9,000,000 ought not to
be lightly tampered with. He was not
asking for any measure of Protection;
he was only asking that an Excise Duty
equivalent to 3s. 6d. per lb. should be
levied on all home-grown tobacco. There
were three ways in which this might be
done. There might be an acreable tax;
but there would be some difficulty in
this plan, because unless a system of
guarantees were established he thought
it was doubtful whether men could be
found to put down so large a sum as
would be required. Then came the Ex-
cise Duty on the cured tobacco. This
was undoubtedly the fairest plan, and
would, he hoped, proved feasible. Lastly,
the cess might be levied, as in Belgium,
at so much per growing plant, worthless
ones being excluded; but there was this
difficulty about fixing the amount-
Lord Harris


namely, that we did not know how many
plants should go to the acre. Different
authorities advised different numbers,
varying from 6,000 to 9,000. Stillthat
ought not to deter them from doing jus-
tice; and to show them that it was pos-
sible to collect a tax upon tobacco he
might mention that in 1864-the year
of the Great War in America-taxes on
240,000 acres of tobacco cultivation were
collected to the amount of $29,000,000.
The suggestions he had to make to Her
Majesty's Government were either that
these Acts should be repealed and an
Excise Duty equivalent to 3s. 6d. per
lb. be put on home-grown tobacco and
and the British farmer be left to himself
to see what he could do, or, if the Go-
vernment thought that that was too
hurried a step, he suggested that, with-
out repealing the Acts, a certain num-
ber of experiments should be authorized
in England and Ireland, the area of each
experiment to be limited, a registration
fee to be paid, and a report of results to
be sent into the proper persons. He
was asking for no boon; he was asking
for simple justice. His figures might
prove utterly fallacious; but at present
they justified him in thinking that the
experiment ought to be made. He asked
it not so much for the advantage of land-
lord and tenant-though Heaven knew
they wanted encouragement bad enough
-but he asked it most especially for
the agricultural labouring class. He
asked that a cultivation which employed
more labour than any crop grown in this
country might, for their sakes at any
rate, be no longer prohibited by the Acts
of Parliament he had cited.
LonD SUDELEY (who replied) said,
that the question of the growth and cul-
tivation of tobacco raised by the noble
Lord in his most interesting speech was
one which had been frequently con-
sidered by different Governments; but
hitherto it had been found impossible to
allow its cultivation in this country. At
this moment of intense agricultural de-
pression he need hardly say that any
practical suggestion which would be
likely in the smallest degree to alleviate
or smooth over the difficulties our far-
mers were suffering from would be gladly
supported by the Government. The
sanguine views expressed by the noble
Lord that the growth of tobacco would
prove remunerative could not fail to be
of great interest to everyone, and espe-


{LORDS}


6'7 Great Britain--







{MAnCH 29, 1886} Cultivation of Tobacco. 70


cially to their Lordships, who were great
authorities on agricultural matters, and
knew so well the terrible trials the agri-
cultural interests were going through.
On several occasions that this question
had been raised arguments had been
brought forward in favour of a certain
amount of Protection being allowed;
and it had always been easy to show
that, if the advocates of the growth of
tobacco relied upon Protection, the cul-
tivation was impossible, as it would lead
to endless smuggling and deception.
The noble Lord who had brought this
Motion forward stood on much stronger
ground. If he understood him rightly he
threw over all ideaof such assistance, and
boldly asserted that the cultivation must
rest only on its own merits, free from
all protective duties. He also stated
his opinion that a profit could be made
even in the face of the heavy tax of
3s. Gd. per lb., and that it could be
cultivated without any loss to the Re-
venue. As he had said, tobacco was
grown in Ireland between the years
1824 and 1830, and in Scotland to a
limited extent in the years 1780, 1781,
and 1782. In both cases it had the ad-
vantage of being duty free; but in Scot-
land it was on an extremely small scale,
and even in Ireland, in 1829, the total
amount of land under cultivation was
only 500 Irish acres, even with that
enormous advantage. This was sup-
posed to be due to the fact that the
tobacco grown was of an inferior quality
to the American product, and that the
great disadvantages attendingthe growth
of tobacco from humidity and uncer-
tainty of climate, and its general specu-
lative character, rendered it an unprofit-
able crop. In 1830 a Select Committee
of the House of Commons inquired tho-
roughly into the whole question, and
their Report was so much against the
cultivation and the impossibility of the
industry being carried on, even if only
a small duty was levied, that the growth
of tobacco in Ireland was prohibited.
A similar prohibition had been in
force in Great Britain since the time
of Charles II. The Committee re-
ported-
That to levy a high Excise Duty on tobacco
grown in the United Kingdom would be at-
tended with a very groat expense and a large
increase in the Excise Establishment; that even
under the strictest regulations and the most
unremitting vigilance, the greatest frauds and
abuse would be likely to prevail from the great


temptation to smuggling created by a high im-
port duty and the facility of evading any Excise
law which could be enacted."
The circumstances which induced the
Committee to come to that decision had
not apparently altered, except so far
that the Revenue which they found
it so necessary to protect was, in 1830,
2,800,000, and in 1886 it was
9,000,000, and therefore the dangers
were greater. In 1863 a planter from
Illinois desired to grow tobacco here,
and Mr. Gladstone, who was then Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, went very care-
fully into the question. The scheme
was found impracticable, as it would
have impaired the Revenue and in-
volved an element of Protection. A
subsequent investigation was made by
the present Secretary of State for India
(the Earl of Kimberley), when he was
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and another
when Lord Sherbrooke was Chancellor
of the Exchequer; but in both cases it
was found impossible. He would not
attempt to criticize the figures the noble
Lord had brought forward to show that
this plant could be grown with a margin
of profit. They must all sincerely hope
he was right; and he knew the noble Lord
had gone very carefully into the sub-
ject. But he must point out that no one
who had read the Report of the Evi-
dence of the Committee that sat in 1830
could fail to be convinced that, under
the most favourable circumstances, to-
bacco was an extremely speculative
crop, and that unless the profits were
very large few would run the risks en-
tailed in its growth. This, perhaps, in
one sense, would not much matter; but
in connection with Excise regulations it
became important. The difficulty as to
the mode of imposing the duty so as
to protect the Revenue was enormous.
Whether the tax should be per acre or
not was doubtful. The evidence taken
in 1830 showed, however, that the culti-
vators were not at all agreed, and that
the arguments against this mode of
collection were very great. In the first
place, the question arose at what period
the duty should be imposed and col-
lected-when the land was first planted,
or when the crop was secured. If when
first planted, the speculation would be
greatly increased; and if not until the
crop was collected, it would be necessary
to keep up a large staff of Excise officers
to watch the crop. Then, in any case, as


69 Great Britain--







Cultivation of Tobacco. 72


the produce must vary in quality and
quantity, from superiority of soil or
situation or mode of culture, the duty
must fall unequally on the proprietor.
The person who had the smallest and
least valuable crop would pay a heavier
amount of duty in proportion than the
individual who had the most profitable
crop. The other plan, and which was
certainly the fairest and most equitable,
was to place the duty on the actual
quantity produced. Unfortunately this
involved an enormous expense, owing to
the necessity of having the crop watched
day and night for nearly two months;
and when the crop after constant
pruning was at last picked, it had to
be placed in specially erected buildings
for drying and storing. He noticed that
one witness gave it as his opinion that
to properly carry out this supervision
the cost would almost be equal to the
actual duty itself, so tremendous was
the expense of guarding the Revenue.
Perhaps those difficulties of Excise could
be solved; and there was no doubt that
if the noble Lord was right, that, not-
withstanding the tax, tobacco could be
grown profitably, some scheme must be
adopted. He must, however, point out
to the noble Lord that in his calculation
of the cost of the tax per acre he had
forgotten to take into account the cost
of collection, which must be added. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer, in answer-
ing a Question on that subject the other
day, said that the Government were
anxious to obtain information. The Go-
vernment had gone very carefully into
the question, and they thought that at
the present time it was most necessary
that any possible suggestion that could
be made of a practical character likely to
assist agriculture should be looked into.
They saw the difficulty of collecting the
Revenue, and the danger to it that would
flow from these experiments; but they
would be willing to try the experi-
ments in certain localities in the way
suggested by the noble Lord. These
experiments were, of course, to be made
subject to certain restrictions. These
restrictions would be very much as
stated by the noble Lord-namely, that
due notice should be given to the In-
land Revenue of the quantity to be
sown, that the localities should be
within an easy distance of the Excise
officers, and that duty should be payable
on any produce fit to smoke. Of course,
Lord Budeley


no legislation would be necessary in
order to carry out these experiments.
The Government hoped that by these
experiments some solution would be
found of the difficulties which he had
endeavoured to enumerate. The Go-
vernment sincerely hoped that the noble
Lord might prove his case, and that it
might be found possible to grow tobacco
in this country without in any way in-
terfering with the Revenue.
THE EARL or DUNRAVEN said, the
noble Lord who had just sat down (Lord
Sudeley) had stated that the cultivation
of tobacco in Ireland was not successful;
but he wished to point out one reason
why it was not so. Although tobacco
had been allowed to be cultivated in
Ireland, it was not permitted to be
manufactured there, and an import duty
had to be paid on Irish-grown tobacco
coming into this country. Under these
circumstances, it was not surprising that
the growing of tobacco in-Ireland did
not reach very large proportions. At
the same time, all the evidence given
by the growers before the Committee in
1830 was to the effect that tobacco was
a very profitable crop in Ireland. He
also wished to point out that the weight
of evidence went to show that it was
grown at a profit in Scotland. The
noble Lord had mentioned the evidence
of one witness, to the effect that tobacco
was not a source of profit in that coun-
try; but he would refer the noble Lord
to the statements of his noble Friend
(Lord Harris) with respect to its having
been grown in Roxburghshire and
Wigtonshiro. He (the Earl of Dunraven)
had another extract on the subject, from
The Quarterly Journal of Agriculture,
Edinburgh, in 1830-
That the tobacco plant may be produced to
any extent in the British Islands is beyond a
question. It grows in all the temperate zones
to a high latitude. It is cultivated extensively
in Germany, and the Low Countries, and even
in Sweden. It required all the intemperate'
laws of King James and his Successors to re-
press its progress in England. During the
American War, and previous to the applica-
tion to Scotland of the prohibitory laws by
the Act of 1782, it was cultivated on the
banks of the Tweed and Teviot with the most
promising results. This Act overtook the
planters in the midst of their labours, and com-
pelled them to root up their plantations and dis-
pose of the produce to Government at a third
part of its market price. But this is not all.
The plant had at length taken root in Ireland,
notwithstanding the absurd anomaly in the law,
which allowed the cultivation of the plant, but


71I Gr6at Britain--


(LORDS}






{MARC 29, 1886} Cultivation of Tobacco. 74


not its manufacture afterwards. Suited in a re- that the cultivation of tobacco was a
markable manner to cottage culture and the matter of very great importance. Agri-
state of small possessions existing in that coun- culture, as they all knew, was in a very
try, there cannot be a doubt that the cultivation
required only a beginning to extend itself over depressed condition, and anything that
the whole of the Island. If the power of culti- tended to revive it would be a godsend,
vating it were freely given, not only would an not only to the agricultural community,
odious tax on the social comforts of the people but to the whole population of the coun-
be lessened, but a new channel would be opened p
for the employment of their industry. At a try. Then, tobacco was singular in this
time when complaints are everywhere loud of -that it required very little capital, and
want of employment, and an excess of labourers, a great deal of labour, and that labour
it surely cannot be wise to persist, by a series of was required chiefly at a time when
laws more harsh and barbarous than any other there was very little doing in agricul-
upon the same subject in Europe, in shuttingery little doing in agcul-
out thousands of our countrymen from a means tural matters. He believed that if to-
of employment in their own country." bacco were grown here it would be of
The plant had taken'root in England, enormous benefit. The evidence before
notwithstanding the absurdly anomalous the Committee of the House of Corn-
state of the law, and there could not be mons, though conflicting, went over-
a doubt that it only needed encourage- whelmingly to show that there was an
ment to extend itself to the whole of the improvement in the material circum-
Island. The want of success which had stances and the moral condition of the
attended its cultivation proved, not that people of Ireland where tobacco was
the plant was not suited to the soil, but grown. Even if it were necessary, to
that the industry had not had fair play. favour the production of home-grown
There was no doubt that tobacco of fair tobacco on a large scale, that the Excise
quality could be grown in these Islands. Duty should be less than the Import
It was very largely grown in Belgium, Duty, he believed it would be a wise
where there was,a climate much the and prudent thing, and true wisdom, to
same as our own, and in climates not place the Excise Duty at a sufficiently
much better than our own in the United low figure to allow of the cultivation.
States. It was not generally known He did not mean to say that it would be
what a large proportion of the whole wise to allow the Revenue to suffer; for
tobacco crop of the United States was while the present Government remained
raised in the Northern States. In Mas- in Office-judging from past experience
sachusetts "and Connecticut large quan- -they must expect to have increased
titles of tobacco, especially adapted for expenditure, further depression of trade,
certain purposes, were grown and ex- and a shrinkage in their resources; and,
ported to Cuba for making wrappers of therefore, it would be very unwise to
cigars. Within the last few years Penn- hamper such a source of Revenue as to-
sylvania had become the third largest bacco. But even if the Excise Duty
tobacco-growing State in the Union. The should not be so high as the present
tobacco-producing area laid mainly in Import Duty, the Revenue might not
York and Lancaster counties, in the suffer in any way. The first effect of
neighbourhood of Delaware Bay, a dis- the competition would be to reduce the
trict famous for east winds and fogs at price of foreign grown tobacco, as the
least equal to our own, and in which growers abroad would have to reduce
the climate would not be generally the price in order to compete with the
thought favourable for tobacco cultiva- growers at home, and prices must be
tion. With regard to the cultivation of cheapened, to the great benefit of those
tobacco paying, whether his noble Friend who used tobacco. The consumption
(Lord Harris) was correct in saying that would thus be largely increased, and
British tobacco could compete with even if the Excise Duty were reduced
foreign tobacco, he did not know, and below the Import Duty, the Revenue
he confessed that he did not quite follow would not suffer. But he would not
his nobleFriend'sreasoning that,because speak about this aspect now. He was
a profit could be made upon wheat, well content that Her Majesty's Govern-
therefore tobacco could be grown at a ment should allow experiments to be
profit. His (the Earl of Dunraven's) made;and heunderstoodthat theGovern-
impression was that wheat could not be ment would allow any amount of land
grown at a profit at all. But, from his to be cultivated, subject to the con-
point of view, he held very strongly editions laid down.


713 Greant Brlitain--







Cultivation of Tobacco, 76


LORD SUDELEY: The experiments
must be on a small scale, to be made by
responsible persons.
THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN, con-
tinuing, said, if only a small amount of to-
bacco were grown and cured, there might
be a difficulty in finding a sale for it.
The noble Lord must remember that all
connected with the trade-importers,
brokers, and middlemen-would be en-
tirely opposed to the experiment. All
the importers and brokers who were ex-
amined before the Committee of 1830
spoke strongly against the proposal, and
all the growers were strongly in favour
of it. There would be an enormous in-
terest opposed to the growing of tobacco
at home; and if only a small quantity
was to be grown, he failed to see how a
market was to be found for it. He
should have thought that, under the re-
strictions which the noble Lord had an-
nounced, Her Majesty's Government
would have allowed any quantity to be
grown, provided the Excise Duty paid
was equal to that of the Import Duty.
He could not conceive that there could
be any difficulty in collecting the Excise
Duty, any more than any other duty.
He hoped and trusted that Her Majesty's
Government would reconsider this mat-
ter, and would see whether, under the
restrictions which had been set forth,
they could not allow of the cultivation
on a large scale, so that the producers
might have a reasonable chance of ob-
taining a sale of the-article produced.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH said, he
congratulated his noble Friend (Lord
Harris) who had brought that subject
forward on the excellent speech he had
made, and also on the result he had so
far obtained. He was glad that Her
Majesty's Government proposed to in-
stitute experiments on that important
question. He did not like to forecast
what might be the result of those ex-
periments. They would have to be con-
ducted with very great care, because
they would apply to a matter of very
large financial importance. They had
to bear in mind that an enormous amount
of Revenue might be affected, and that
when they were instituting anything in
the nature of an excise, and a very heavy
excise, on an article of home growth, it
was absolutely necessary to take pre-
cautions by restrictions on the cultiva-
tion of the article which could not fail
to be felt to be annoying and to a certain


extent discouraging. However, it was
important that the experiments should
be tried in order to ascertain as well as
they could whether it was possible
for the Revenue Authorities to provide
means of checking and preventing fraud
on the Revenue without imposing such
burdensome and inconvenient restric-
tions on the cultivation of tobacco as
would destroy its successful prosecution.
If there should be very heavy restric-
tions and very inconvenient precautions
employed to prevent fraud upon the
Revenue they might render it impossible
to cultivate the plant at such advantage
as would make it profitable. However,
the subject appeared to have been fairly
considered by the Government, and he,
therefore, hoped that notice would be
issued as soon as might be of the con-
ditions upon which the experiments were
to be tried. If they were to be tried, it
was very desirable that it should be
done soon, and that, if possible, a season
should not be lost in the matter. He
did not know whether the Government
would be able to give the notices quickly,
but, undoubtedly, it was very desirable
that they should do so.
LORD NORTHBOURNE said, that
the farmers of this country were apt to
say that Parliament took little interest
in agriculture; but he was quite sure
that was not the case, and* that noble
Lords on the Ministerial side were
anxious to do as much good for the in-
terests of agriculture as noble Lords
opposite. He would also point out
that very crude and absurd notions were
afloat in regard to the waste land exist-
ing in this country, and its capacity for
profitable cultivation.
THE EARL OF WEMYSS said, he would
not enter into the question whether the
Liberals or the Conservatives were best
entitled to be called the farmers' friends;
but he wished to ask whether it was in-
tended by the Government'that the pro-
posed experiments with respect to the
cultivation of tobacco would apply to
Scotland as well as to England and Ire-
land, and in what relative proportion as
to. acreage between the three countries ?
LoRD SUDELEY said, he believed
that it was not quite decided what ex-
periments should be carried on, or whe-
ther it might not be desirable to consult
with the Royal Agricultural Society on
the subject. That point was still under
consideration.


75 Great Britain-~-


{LORDS}








THE EARL OF WEMYSS asked whe- prisoner voluntarily put himself in the
other they would not apply to the Three position of a witness he ought to be
Kingdoms? subject to the same kind of cross-ex-
LORD SUDELEY said, he thought it amination as that to which other wit-
was intended that they should apply to nesses were exposed. In order to get
the Three Kingdoms; but the point was rid of one anomaly his noble and learned
not yet settled. Friend proposed to introduce another.
The man having elected to come for-
LAW OF EVIDENCE AMENDMENT ward as a witness, on what possible
BILL.-(No. 44.) ground could they protect him from the
(The Lord Bramwell.) consequences of his own choice ?
REPORT. LORD BRAMWELL said, that in two
recent Statutes-the Explosives Act and
Amendments reported (according to the Criminal Law Amendment Act-the
Order). principle had been admitted that the
THE EARL OF MILLTOWN, in rising person accused might give evidence in
to move to leave out Clause 5, which his own case; but there was no clause
provided that prisoners on being called in either of those Acts similar to that of
upon to give evidence as witnesses should which the noble Earl opposite (the Earl
not be cross-examined, said, that the of Milltown) had moved the omission.
Amendment had been introduced at the He (Lord Bramwell) would have sub-
suggestion of the noble and learned mitted to their Lordships' former de-
Lord (Lord Halsbury) ; but it was very cision; but as the omission of the clause
doubtful whether the effect would not had been moved, he must vote for it.
be to lead to a miscarriage of justice. THE MASTER OF THE ROLLS (Lord
While the prisoner might give his evi- ESHER) said, he spoke from a legal ex-
dence and be guarded from cross-ex- perience of 40 years, 18 years of which
amination, a prosecutor would be liable he had spent on the Bench. With re-
to be cross-examined and have his whole guard to some things which had been
character inquired into. He could said, it should be remembered that the
imagine a prosecutor who had been Crown had no desire to convict a pri-
guilty of some immorality during his sooner; and if the case depended solely
life, and that fact might be dragged be- on the evidence of the prosecutor, and
fore a jury to the benefit of the prisoner, the prosecutor was shown not to be a
and thus the ends of justice would be credible person, no conviction would ever
defeated. be obtained. Criminal trials differed
Aoved, That Clause be left out of from civil, and no Judge, he was sure,
the Bill." The Earl of illown.) would ever allow a jury to convict unless
the Bill."-(Te rl of lltowhe himself was certain of the prisoner's
LORD HALSBURY said, that the guilt. He would ask their Lordships to
question was whether they would allow imagine what the state of feeling would
the prisoner to make a statement. It be if a timid and ordinarily ill-educated
was not a question whether they would prisoner was made to say something
allow him to be cross-examined as the under cross-examination which he did
prosecutor would properly be cross- not want to say, and which would put
examined. The noble Earl (the Earl of him in a position -of the greatest
Milltown) spoke of the prisoner and pro- jeopardy. His conviction, under such
sector as if they were rivals. That circumstances, would not improbably
idea, of course, was untenable. The lead the spectators to sympathize with
jury would draw the inference from the the criminal rather than with the law.
evidence. In his opinion the result of It should be borne in mind that a great
the Bill, without such a provision as end to be arrived at in a criminal trial
Clause 5, would be to invert the whole was not only to secure a conviction, but
system of our administration, and it to secure sympathy with the conviction;
would be calculated to do mischief if it and with that view, although he some-
were adopted without the restriction what objected to the wording of it, he
there laid down. supported the clause.
VISCOUNT CRANBROOK said, he was THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord
obliged to differ from his noble and HERSCHELL) said, he had no strong view
learned Friend (Lord Halsbury). If a on the subject. No doubt, the clause


77 Law of Evidence


{MARCH 29, 1886}


amendment t Bill. 78







79 Sporting Lands Rating


was not logical; but the Bill itself was
not wholly logical, and the clause would
only add another anomaly to the Bill.
He was in favour of the measure, which
would be a great advantage to the inno-
cent man, and would lead to the convic-
tion of the guilty; but though the clause
might pass their Lordships' House, he
knew what would be said of it in "an-
otherplace." It would be said-" Fancy
a poacher brought before county ma-
gistrates and asked whether he had
ever been guilty of poaching before."
He thought, therefore, that the Bill was
a good one with that clause; but with-
out it the Bill would not become law.
On Question, Whether the said Clause
shall stand part of the Bill ? Their Lord-
ships divided :-Contents 31; Not-Con-
tents 14: Majority 17.
Bill to be read 3* on Thursday next.

SPORTING LANDS RATING-(SCOTLAND)
BILL.-(No. 36.)
(The Earl of Elgin.)
SECOND READING. -
Order of the Day for the Second Read-
ing read.
THE EARL OF ELGIN, in moving that
the Bill be read a second time, said, that
it had already passed through all its
stages in the Lower House without op-
position or alteration. The object of
the Bill was very simple. As the law
now stood in Scotland, an assessor was
bound to enter on the Valuation Roll the
assessments for poor rates and other
purposes on shootings and deer forests
which were let; but he was not bound
or entitled to enter any shootings which
were unlet, or still in the hands of the
proprietor. He understood that that
was not the case in England, but that
all shootings, whether let or unlet, were
rated. It was not the first time that
the anomaly which existed in Scotland
had been brought under notice, because
so long ago as 1871 a Select Committee
of the House of Commons on the Poor
Law of Scotland recommended that the
shootings and deer forests in the occupa-
tion of owners be assessed for the poor
at the yearly value at which they might
reasonably be expected to be let for
sporting purposes. The Royal Commis-
sion on the Highlands and Islands-
the Crofters' Commission-reported in a
similar sense two years ago. Under
Lord Hersehell


these circumstances, the Bill proposed
to enact that in future the words now
appearing in the Valuation Act dealing
with this subject-" Where such shoot-
ings or deer forests are actually let "-
should be omitted. It also laid down
that it should be the duty of the assessor
to enter separately for each parish, and
of respect of each property, the yearly
value of the shootings and deer forests
so far as situated within such parish.
The only other point of importance in
the Bill was contained in Clause 6,
which proposed certain rules to guide
the assessors in estimating such yearly
values. The valuation of shootings de-
pended, to a certain extent, on the ser-
vices of keepers and others, without
whose services the sporting would be
very much deteriorated in value. It
was to guide the assessors, therefore, in
this and other respects that the rules in
the clause were laid down.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2"."
--(The Earl of Elgin.)
LORD BALFOUR said, he certainty
thought the Bill a very wise one, and
did not suppose it would encounter any
opposition. He was not quite sure, how-
ever, of the wisdom of these rules for the
guidance of the assessors; and he should
like that some time should be allowed to
elapse before'the Committee stage was
taken, in order to allow him to consult
those whowere practically engaged in the
work of registration, and ask them to
give the question their consideration.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accord-
ingly.
House adjourned at Seven o'clock,
till To-morrow, a quarter
past Ten o'clock.


HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Monday, 29th March, 1886.


MINUTES.]-NEW MEMBEn SwonN--Sir
William Cunliffe Brooks, baronet, for
Chester County (Altrincham Division).
SELECT COMMITTEE-Ventilation of the House,
MIr. Tatton Egerton and Mr. Cyril Flower
added.
PUBLIC BILLS Resolution in Commiittee -
Ordered First Reading Companies Acts
Amendment* [158].
Ordered-First Reading-Prison Officers' Super-
annuation* [154]; Poor Relief (Ireland)*


{COMMONS}


(Scotlanzd) Bill. 80







(Barrow in Feurness). 82


[155]; International and Colonial Copy-
right* [156]; Intoxicating Liquors (Sale to
Children) [157].
Second Reading Marriages (Attendance of
Registrars) [121], debate adjourned.
Select Committee Hyde Park Corner (New
Streets) [103], nominated.
Committee-Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2) [118]
[First Night]--R.r.
Committee Report Army Annual* [150];
Public Health Acts (Improvement Expenses)
[7-153].
Considered as amended-Third Reading Com-
pensation for Damages [120] ; Marriages
(Hours of Solemnisation) [62], and passed.
Third Reading Labourers (Ireland) Acts
Amendment* [10], and passed.
Withdrawn Common Juries Remuneration
[95].
NEW WRIT (BARROW IN FURNESS).
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. ARxoLD MORLEY) (Notting-
ham, E): I beg to move-
That Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to
the Clerk of the Crown to make out a new writ
for the election of a Member to serve in this
present Parliament for the Borough of Barrow
in Furness, in the room of David Duncan, Esq.,
whose election has been declared void."
Mn. LEWIS (Londonderry): I wish
to call the attention of the House to a
Standing or Sessional Order which was
in existence during the last Parliament,
and which provided that whenever an
election was declared void on the ground
of corrupt practices, no new writ should
be moved until after three days' notice
had been given. Now, considering the
character of this election, I think it is
highly inexpedient for the House in this
early stage of its existence to set the
bad precedent of issuing a new writ
for the election of a Member to serve
in Parliament in the place of a person
whose seat has been declared void, on
the ground of corrupt practices, until
we have had an opportunity of seeing
the evidence adduced on the trial of the
Petition. I entertain no doubt as to
the extreme purity of the Liberal Party,
and I entertain still less doubt as to the
extreme purity of individual Members
of the Government opposite in passing
the Corrupt Practices Act; but I think
we ought to know a little more about
the circumstances of this case before
we consent to the issue of a new writ.
At present I have no knowledge of those
circumstances except what I have de-
rived from the newspapers -namely,
that a Member of this House has been
deprived of his seat on the ground of


bribery and corrupt practices, although
I do not know the nature or extent of
the bribery committed. Then I think
that the House ought to do what it has
repeatedly done before. When there
has not been sufficient evidence to justify
the issue of a Royal Commission, the
House has for months, aye, and even
for Sessions-as occurred in the case of
the Wigan Election-abstained from
issuing a new writ; and I do not think
that we ought to commence the labours
of this new Parliament by establishing
the really bad precedent which the
hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the
Treasury asks us to set. In order to
give time for the further consideration
of the matter, I beg to move that the
debate be now adjourned.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Debate be now adjourned."-
(Jfr. Lewis.)
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir
CHARLES RUSSELL) (Hackney, S.): I
had received no intimation from the
hon. Gentleman that he intended to
raise this question.
MI. LEWIS: I had no idea that the
Motion for the issue of the writ was
going to be made.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: I
think I am correct in stating that the
Report of the Election Judges was re-
ceived by the Speaker, as appears from
the record of our proceedings, on the
24th or 25th of March. The Standing
or Sessional Order to which the hon.
Member has referred is not, in fact, now
in force. I do not at all dispute the fact
that that does not dispose of the matter,
and give a complete answer to the ob-
jection of the hon. Member, if there is
reason to suppose that there was in this
case any bribery or any kind of general
corruption. If the hon. and learned
Member will look to the Report of the
Election Judges, and to the information
which is within the knowledge of every
Member of the House, he will see that
this is a case in which there was no
charge of anything like the existence of
corrupt practices at all, and that the
late Member for Barrow in Furness,
Mr. Duncan, was unseated not on ac-
count of corrupt practices, but on the
ground of an illegal practice. The
illegal practice in question was, that on
the day of election, after taking advice,


81 ~New MPrit


IMAncu 29), 18861







(Scotland). 84


Mr. Duncan ordered some refreshment,
very moderate in amount, to be given to
certain persons who had been actually
working for him, and that has been held
by the Judges to be an illegal practice
within the meaning of the Statute. I
will read what the Election Judges say
about it. They say-
"And, in further pursuance of the said Acts,
we report that at the conclusion of the said
Trial we determined that the said David Dun-
can, being the Member whose Election and re-
turn were complained of in the said Petition,
was not duly elected and returned, by reason of
illegal practices, within the meaning of the Cor-
rupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act,
1883, having been committed by or with the
knowledge and consent of the Respondent, in
reference to the said Election, and also by the
Election Agent of the Respondent (with the
like knowledge and consent), and we do certify
in writing such our determination to you.
And whereas charges were made in the said
Petition of corrupt and illegal practices having
been committed at the said Election, we, in fur-
ther pursuance of the said Acts, report as fol-
lows:-
That no corrupt practice was proved to have
been committed by or with the knowledge or
consent of any Candidate at such Election.
That the following persons were proved at
the Trial guilty of illegal practices, namely,
illegal employment, to both of whom we have
furnished Certificates of Indemnity :-
David Duncan, the Respondent;
Abraham Langhorn Garnett,the Respondent's
Election Agent.
We further report that there is no reason to
believe that either corrupt or illegal practices
have extensively prevailed at the Parliamentary
Election for the Borough of Barrow in Furness,
in the County of Lancaster, to which the said
Petition relates."
SIR JOHN GORST (Chatham): The
hon. and learned Attorney General has
not replied to the objection of my hon.
Friend the Member for Londonderry
(Mr. Lewis). The objection of my hen.
Friend was, that although there may not
be a Standing Order, it has always been
the determination of the House whenever
an hen. Member had been unseated by
an existing tribunal, and that tribunal
has reported that he had been unseated
in consequence of the Commission of
Corrupt Practices by anybody, there
should be a few days' notice before a
Motion was made for the issue of a new
writ, so that every Member might have
an opportunity of examining the Report
of the Judges who tried the Petition.
In those days there was no such thing
as an "illegal practice ; but it pleased
the House, by an Act passed about a
year before the termination of the last
Sir Charles Russell


Parliament, to institute a new electoral
offence, called an illegal practice,"
and the question now is whether the
same rule should not be applied to ille-
gal practices as has been wisely applied
to corrupt practices. If it is considered
that an illegal practice is an offence of
so venal a character that it should not
necessitate any action on the part of the
House, then it maybe quite right that
a writ of this kind should be moved;
but if the House is desirous to make
the Act of 1884 a reality, and not a
sham, I think it would be wise for the
House to apply to illegal practices ex-
actly the same rule as has been applied
to corrupt practices. If that is done, it
would follow that whenever a man is
unseated for the commission of an ille-
gal practice, there ought to be three
days' notice before a Motion is made for
the issue of a new writ, so that hon.
Members may have an opportunity of
examining the Report of the Election
Judges, in order to see whether there is
any objection to the issue of the writ,
or whether it ought to be issued as a
matter of course. That is what my
hon. Friend the Member for London-
derry intended, and I do not think
that what the hen. and learned Attorney
General said in reply has at all answered
that objection.
Question, That the Debate be now
adjourned," put, and negatived.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Ordered, That Mr. Speaker do issue his war-
rant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a
new writ for the election of a Member to serve
in this Present Parliament for the Borough of
Barrow in Furness, in the room of David
Duncan, Esq., whose election has been declared
void."
Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) -- SCHOOL
ACCOMMODATION CROACHIE OF
DAVIOT, INVERNESS-SHIRE.
Mn. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire) asked the Secretary for
Scotland, Whether his attentionhas been
called to a defect in school accommoda-
tion for the Presbyterian children in and
about Croachie of Daviot, in Inverness-
shire; and, whether he will order that
steps be taken to remove the grievance ?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &e.) (who re-
plied) said: In answer to this Ques-


83 -Educcation


{COMMONS}






85 The Royal Courts


tion, I have to state that the De-
partment are now in communication
with the School Board on the subject,
and await a proposal from the Board,
with whom the primary responsibility
for the school supply rests.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND)-
PAYMENT OF RATES IN THE
HIGHLANDS.
Mu. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire) asked the Secretary for
Scotland, If his attention has been
directed to a printed statement lately
issued by the proprietrix of South Uist,
where it is alleged that the crofters and
others to a large extent decline to pay
their share of the parochial rates and
assessments; whether he will cause in-
quiry to be made as to the truth of the
above allegation; and, whether the ar-
rears of rates in South Uist, if greater
than the average, has any connection with
the prevalent distress in the locality ?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.) (who re-
plied) said: Attention was directed to
this printed statement, and the serious
results likely to ensue from the non-pay-
ment of rates in various island parishes in
Inverness-shire were brought under the
notice of the Government by communi-
cations from the Board of Supervision
and other persons. Directions were con-
sequently given, under which a special
inquiry is now being made into the
whole circumstances connected with the
arrears of rates and the distress alleged
to exist in certain parishes in Skye.
When the Report has been received
it will be the duty of the Government
to consider whether the inquiry should
be extended to other districts, including
South Uist.

CRIMINAL LAW (SCOTLAND) OUT-
RAGES ON LADY GORDON
CATHCART.
Mn. FRASER-MACKINTOSH (In-
verness-shire) asked the Lord Advocate,
If his attention has been directed to a
printed statement, lately issued by the
proprietrix of South Uist, where it is
alleged that outrages were committed by
paraffin being put in her Church pew,
by telegraph lines being cut, and the
terrorism prevailing was such that the
perpetrators of these crimes could not be.
discovered by the authorities, although


well known in the district; whether the
Procurator Fiscal at Lochinaddy investi-
gated the circumstances; and, whether
there is any information in possession
of the criminal authorities to warrant
the charge made that the outrages were
committed by members of the South
Uist Land Law Reform League, or by
any of the crofters and cottars on the
estate of South Uist ?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): My at-
tention has been called to this state-
ment. In consequence of information
which reached me in the autumn of 1884
regarding various outrages alleged to
have been committed in South Uist, I
caused an inquiry to be made by the
Procurator Fiscal, the result of which as
regards the specific acts mentioned in
the Question was that it was ascertained
that the parish church had been entered
between Saturday night and Sunday
morning, and that paraffin oil had been
spread over certain pews, books, &c., in
the church; but it was not established
that oil had been placed in the pew of
the proprietrix. It was also ascertained
that a telegraph wire had been cut and
certain other illegal acts done; but it
could not be ascertained who the perpe-
trators of the offences were.

THE ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE-
ATTENDANCE OF OFFICIALS.
MR. H. CAMPBELL (Fermanagh, S.)
asked Mr. Attorney General, Who is re-
sponsible for the punctual and regular
attendance of the officers of the Royal
Courts' of Justice; is it the fact that
there is great irregularity in the attend-
ance, some officials arriving about 11.30,
and leaving before 3, and, in conse-
quence, much loss of time to the public
and suitors generally; and, is there any
time or attendance book for signature
by the various officers and clerks, and
who has the supervision of it?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir
CHARLES RUSSELL) (Hackney, S.): In
answer to the Question of the hen.
Member, I have to say that this matter
has been brought before the Lord Chan-
cellor, and I have received a letter from
the Lord Chief Justice, who is now pre-
siding over a Committee to which this
very matter was referred. I will, there-
fore, ask the hen. Member not to press
the Question further until a Report can
be presented on the subject.


JMAlRcH 29, 18861


of Jusliee. 86







87 1. I- Drlumnmond {COMMONS8


THE LAND COMMISSION (IRELAND) -
FAIR RENTS -CASE OF HUGH REILLY
AND PATRICK REEHILL, CLINCOOHY,
CO. FERMANAGH.
MR. H. CAMPBELL (Fermanagh, S.)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, Is it the factthat
Hugh Reilly and Patrick Reehill, of
Clincoohy, barony of Knockninny, county
Fermanagh, served the necessary notices
upon their landlord, the Rev. J. Massy
Beresford, to have a fair rent fixed;
whether these cases were heard at Lis-
naskea on 15th October 1883, four Com-
missioners being present; did the fair
rent fixed in both cases correspond with
the old rent; is it true that the Commis-
sioners never inspected the farms of
these men; if so, was the course pur-
sued regular; and, will the cases be re-
heard ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JonN
MORLEY) (Newcastle on-Tyne): These
cases were heard by the Commissioners
on the date mentioned. The fair rent
fixed in both cases was the old rent,
which was below the Poor Law valua-
tion. The Commissioners heard the
evidence of valuers; but they did not
inspect the farms themselves. That, I
understand, was a matter within their
discretion. No appeal was lodged against
the decision, although it was open to
the tenants to do so. The time allotted
for this purpose has long since passed.

CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT-OUTPORT
CLERKS.
SIR THOMAS ESMONDE (Dublin
Co., S.) asked the Secretary to the Trea-
sury, What steps the Treasury intend
taking to provide for the principal clerks
at present stationed at Bristol, Hull,
Newcastle, Dublin, Belfast, and Leith,
in view of the fact that, whereas seven
principal clerks were provided for in
last year's Estimates, only one principal
clerk at the Customs Out-ports is pro-
vided for in the Estimates for the pre-
sent year ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HErNRY H. FOWLEn) (Wol-
verhampton, E.): The offices of prin-
cipal clerks having at the recent re-
vision been struck off the establishment
of the ports of Bristol, Hull, Newcastle,
Dublin, Belfast, and Leith, it was not
possible to provide salaries for the
holders of those offices under the name


of principal clerks. Their pay has,
therefore, been provided with, and in-
cluded in, that estimated for clerks of
the first class, they being, in fact, super-
numerary principal clerks employed in
vacancies of first-class clerk, but paid at
their old salaries. No individual lately
holding the office of a principal clerk,
and now redundant as such, will sustain
pecuniary injury through the revision.

THE BRITISH WEST INDIES-CONVEN-
TION WITH THE UNITED STATES.
MR. TOMLINSON (Preston) asked
the Under Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, Whether the draft Conventions
for facilitating trade between the British
West Indies and the United States of
America, as propounded by the Govern-
ment of the United States, contained
treaty proposals conferring upon those
British Colonies the status and privi-
leges of the most favoured nation; and,
whether the Government of the United
States have, ever since, expressed to
Her Majesty's Government their un-
willingness to enter into a treaty engage-
ment to accord the most favoured nation
treatment to the British West Indies;
and, if so, when andunder what circum-
stances such expression of unwillingness
was made ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF
STATE (Mr. BRYCE) (Aberdeen, S.):
The only Draft Convention proposed by
the Government of the United States for
facilitating trade between that country
and the British West Indies will be
found at page 11 of the Parliamentary
Paper No. 4 Committee of 1885. The
11th Article contains a qualified and
conditional Most Favoured NationClause.
The reasons for which Her Majesty's
Government were unable to agree to
that Draft are given in Earl Granville's
despatch of the 12th of February, 1885,
in the same Paper. The Government of
the United States have not since then
expressed unwillingness to grant most
favoured nation treatment to the British
West India Colonies ; but, in such corre-
spondence as has subsequently passed,
they have not given any definite answer
to Earl Granville's despatch.

EGYPT-ADMINISTRATIVE REFORMS-
SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF'S
REPORTS.
SSi GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirk-
caldy, &c.) asked the Under Secretary


lyooy"8 Reporl0's. 88







{ MARCH 29, 1886} Inflammatory Placards. 90


of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether
Her Majesty's Government have re-
ceived, or expect soon to receive, any
Report from Sir Henry Drummond
Wolff on the state of Egypt; whether
they propose soon to lay upon the Table
that and other Papers throwing light on
the internal Administration of Egypt,
and especially showing the fate of the
self-governing institutions recommended
by Lord Dufferin, and decreed by the
Khedive; showing whether there has
been any real progress towards a Native
Administration that can stand by itself,
and a Native Army that can protect the
Country, and also showing whether the
Country is contented, peaceful, and
fairly free from violent crime, or whe-
ther brigandage and violent crime are
common; whether the administration of
justice is satisfactory, and the state of
the gaols creditable, or the justice is
scandalously bad, and the gaols full of
persons arbitrarily detained without
trial, as represented by Mr. Justice
West; what are the irrigation works
in progress; whether any relief has been
given to the cultivators of Upper Egypt,
always over-taxed, and now affected by
the fall in prices; whether the revenue
survey is more effective, or is still as bad
as represented by Lord Dufferin; whe-
ther the Crown domains are as mis-
managed as has been represented; whe-
ther forced labour has been abolished,
or is still actively enforced; and, whe-
ther, in regard to Mokabileh and Pension
claims, and other financial questions,
the Natives have had the same mea-
sure of justice as Europeans ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY oF
STATE (Mr. BRYCE) (Aberdeen) S.):
Her Majesty's Government are receiv-
ing from Sir H. Drummond Wolff Re-
ports on the various branches of the
Egyptian Question, and it is probable
that these Reports will be in due course
laid upon the Table of the House; but,
pending the continuance of Sir H.
Drummond Wolff's Mission, it is not
possible to find a date for their publica-
tion. With regard to the seven other
Questions which my hen. Friend puts
to me, he must, of course, be aware that
I could not reply to them in a manner
which would give to the House any in-
formation not already in its possession
without far exceeding the limits which
it allows to the answer to a Question.
He will find ample materials for in-


forming himself on the topics to which
he calls attention in the Papers already
laid, and hereafter to be laid, before
Parliament.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL said, he
wished to explain. His hon. Friend had
misunderstood his Question. He did
not ask for information on the points set
out in it, but whether any Papers would
be laid on the Table in regard to them
all.
Mn. HANBURY (Preston) asked
whether Mr. Justice West's Report had
been received.
Mn. BRYCE said, the Report had
been received, and was now under con-
sideration. As to the observation of his
hon. Friend, he could only say that his
answer was suggested by the series of
seven Questions put to him. Informa-
tion on these points would doubtless be
found in the Papers about to be pre-
sented, but he could not say when.
STATE OF IRELAND-INFLAMMATORY
PLACARDS CASE OF ALEXANDER
STEEN, CLOGER, CO. TYRONE.
MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN (Tyrone,
S.) asked the Chief Secretary to the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether
he is now prepared to state what
course the Government intend to take
in the case of Alexander Steen, stamp
distributor and registrar of marriages
at Clogher, county Tyrone, in re-
ference to the evidence submitted to
him as to Mr. Steen's part in issuing
an inflammatory placard summoning
an Orange counter-demonstration, and
subsequently publishing a black list dis-
tinguishing the Orange from the Na-
tionalist traders of Clogher by name?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY(Mr. JOHN
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne): In reply
to the hon. Member, I have to say hat I
made inquiry and sent an Inspector-or
an official-down to make an inquiry
into this matter. The information which
I have obtained in response to that in-
quiry does not legally connect Alexander
Steen with the issue of the placard re-
ferred to. The hon. Member will per-
ceive that a particular name being affixed
to a placard is not itself legal evidence
against that person. I am advised that
neither the placard nor the notice could
be the subject of a prosecution. In the
absence of any persons to come forward
to give evidence in public we cannot
carry the matter further.


89 State of Ireland--







Franchise (Ireland). 92


Mn. WILLIAM O'BRIEN asked
whether there was any other Alexander
Steen in the district, and whether he had
been asked if he was the author of these
placards ?
Mn. JOHN MORLEY: Subject to
legal correction I will state that I believe
we have no right to go to him on the
subject. I may point out that the mere
fact of his name appearing on the cir-
cular in no way connects him with it.
MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN (who on
rising was received with cries of
"Order!") said, he was perfectly in
Order. He would ask whether this
gentleman had ever disowned these
placards, seeing that they had updn
several occasions been the subject of dis-
cussion in that House and elsewhere ?
MR. JOHN MORLEY: We cannot
press him to own or disown them.
MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: I will
then be obliged on Friday next to put
down a Motion upon this matter.

IRISH NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS
-LEGISLATION.
Sin JAMES CORRY (Armagh, Mid)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, If the Govern-
ment intends introducing a Bill this
Session dealing with the claims urged
by the National School Teachers in Ire-
land for improved position and increased
salaries ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.
JorH MORLEY) (Newcastlo-on-Tyne):
I am sorry to say that I am not in a
position to give any undertaking that
this subject will be dealt with in the
present Session.

THE CHANNEL ISLANDS-JERSEY
GAOL.
Mn. DAVID SMITH (Brighton)
asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, Whether it is a fact
that in Her Majesty's prison in Jersey
prisoners are shut up during the winter
season from dusk till seven in the morn-
ing without the cells being warmed,
without lights, and without any means
of communication with a warder; and,
whether he will send an Inspector to
examine the prison, and report to him
thereon, or to take such steps as he may
think right to ameliorate the condition
of the prisoners ?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
CIIILDERS): Yes, Sir. Thefactisasstated


in the Question of the hon. Member. I
have called the attention of the Governor
of the Island to the matter, and he has
asked me that an Inspector of English
prisons may be sent over to report on the
state of the prison there. I have accord-
ingly given instructions that this may be
arranged at once. I would remind the
hon. Member that the prison adminis-
tration in Jersey is vested in a Prisons
Board, composed of the leading officials
of the Island, and not in the Secretary
of State in the sense that the administra-
tion of English prisons is under the Act
of 1877.

LITERATURE, SCIENCE, AND ART-
THE TRANSIT OF VENUS.
MR. BRODRICK (Surrey, Guildford)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury,
Whether the final Report of the Expe-
ditions to observe the Transit of Venus
in 1882, subsidized by the British Go-
vernment to the extent of 14,689, has
been presented; and, if not, when it
will be presented ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FoWLER) (Wol-
verhampton, E.), in reply, said, that it
was hoped that the final Report of the
Expeditions would be presented in June.

PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE (IRE-
LAND)-THE COLLECTOR GENERAL
OF RATES FOR THE CITY OF DUBLIN.
Mn. SEXTON (Sligo, S.) asked the
Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, with regard to the opinion
given by the late Attorney General for
Ireland, that the Collector General of
Rates for the city of Dublin was entitled
to make in the rate books of the city the
alteration which he has made in the rate
books for the current year, by adding a
column for occupiers not liable for pay-
ment of rates, Under what circumstances
the opinion of the late Attorney General
was sought for, and whether it was given
by him in his capacity as a Law Officer
of the Crown ; whether the present At-
torney General for Ireland has been
consulted on this question, and whether
his opinion agrees with that attributed
to the late Attorney General; whether
portions of the English Rates Act of
1869, and of the English Registration
Act of 1878, incorporated with "The
Representation of the People Act, 1884,"
direct that occupiers, whether liable for
payment of the rates or not, be returned


91 Parliamentary


{COMMONS J






93 Poor Law


for every qualification dependent upon
rating; whether at the current revision
of the lists of Poor Law voters in Dublin,
the Revising Barrister, notwithstanding
the provisions cited, is excluding from
the Poor Law franchise occupiers not
liable for payment of rates; and, what
steps will be taken to prevent the dis-
franchisement of thousands of occupiers
in Dublin, and to execute the purpose
expressed in the Franchise Act ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN
MORLEY) (Newcastle on Tyne): The
opinion of the late Attorney General
was obtained from him in his capacity
as Law Officer. As I mentioned before,
on that particular matter, both he and
the present Solicitor General, and Mr.
Carton, Q.C., have given an opinion in
accordance with that given by several
other eminent counsel, that the Fran-
chise Act of 1884 does not apply to the
Poor Law franchise. The matter can
only be solved by a legal decision, which
can be readily obtained in the Courts of
Law.

INDIA-ANNEXATION OF UPPER BUR-
MAII-THE INDIAN NATIONAL CON-
GRESS, BOMBAY.
Mn. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.) asked
the Under Secretary of State for India,
Whether his attention has been called
to the following resolution passed at the
Indian National Congress held in Bom-
bay on the 28th, 29th, and 30th Decem-
ber 1885:-
That this Congress deprecates the annexa-
tion of Upper Burmah, and considers that, if
the Government unfortunately decide on an-
nexation, the entire Country of Burmah should
be separated from the Indian Viceroyalty, and
constituted a Crown Colony, as distinct in all
matters from the Government of this Country
as is Ceylon; "
whether the Rangoon Chamber of Com-
merce, in May 1885, expressed its desire
that Burmah may be constituted a
Colony unattached to the Indian Penin-
sular; and, whether, having regard to
those indications of opinion from India
and from Burmah in favour of the
separation of the two Countries, the
Government will take the question into
their consideration ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Sir UGHTRED KAY-SHUTTLE-
woarH) (Lancashire, Clitheroe): The
Secretary of State is aware of the Reso-
lution passed at the Indian National


Congress held in Bombay in December
last, and also of the opinion of the
Rangoon Chamber of Commerce ex-
pressed in May, that Burmah should be
constituted a Crown Colony ; but it is
not, in the opinion of Her Majesty's
Government, necessary to consider the
question of separating Burmah from the
Indian Empire.

INLAND REVENUE-THE SALE OF
STAMPS.
MR. BERNARD KELLY (Donegal, S.)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury,
If a Company are prepared to pay the
Government their full price for penny
stamps, and if they, without fraud, are
prepared to re-sell them to the public
through stationers who hold licences to
sell stamps at a halfpenny each, if the
Government would interfere with the
said stationers selling same ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER) (Wol-
verhampton, E.) : The proposal in ques-
tion is now under the consideration of
the Commissioners of Inland Revenue;
but no decision has yet boon been ar-
rived at as to whether the scheme should
be sanctioned or not.

POOR LAW (IRELAND)-APPOINTMENT
OF WORKHOUSE MEDICAL OFFICER
AND DISPENSARY MEDICAL OFFICER.
Mn. HARRIS (Galway, E.) (for Mr.
FOLEY) (Galway, Connemara) asked the
Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, Whether it is a fact that, in
Ballinrobe, Castlebar, Ballina, and other
Irish dispensary districts, the offices of
Workhouse Medical Officer and Dispen-
sary Medical Officer are held by different
persons; whether the dispensary district
of Clifden, extending sixteen miles north
and south of the town of that name, and
having a population of 9,593, is more
extensive and more populous than any
of the districts named; whether the last
two occupants of the combined office
of Workhouse and Dispensary Medical
Officer in the Clifden District died in
consequence of the pressure of overwork
upon them; and, whether the Local
Government Board have considered a
series of Resolutions, adopted on the
17th instant by a public meeting at
Clifden, setting forth the necessity,
owing to the extent and population of
the district, and the number of recent


I MlkRcH 29, 18861


(Ireland). 94







95 Irish Church Act, 1869- {COMMONS}


deaths in consequence of the want of
adequate medical assistance, that two
Medical Officers instead of one should
be appointed; and whether this course
will be taken ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. Jon
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne) : Sir, the
fact is as stated in the first paragraph of
this Question. In Clifden, which is not
so populous or so extensive as any of the
other three districts named, and in about
half the Unions in Ireland, the offices in
question are held by the same person, as
it is found that in places where the
opportunities of private practice are few
the combined salaries enable the Guar-
dians to secure the services of persons
of higher qualification than if they could
only offer the salary appertaining to one
post. The combined salaries in Clifden
only amount to 180 a-year. The Local
Government Board have no information
as to the cause of death of the last two
occupants of the office beyond a state-
ment made in a Resolution passed at the
meeting referred to; and having regard
to the extreme poverty of the Union,
and to the fact that the existing arrange-
ment has been in force for 34 years, they
do not feel they would be justified in
interfering with the discretion of the
Guardians and Dispensary Committee,
or in compelling them to incur more
expense.
INLAND REVENUE INCOME TAX -
THE ASSESSMENTS.
MR. GIBB (St. Pancras, E.) asked
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whe-
ther he was rightly reported to have
said that any of the Government officials,
such as surveyors of taxes, connected
with the assessment of Income Tax are
paid either wholly or partly by commis-
sion, so as to give them an interest in
raising assessments; and, whether pay-
ment by poundage or commission is not
confined to collectors of taxes who are
local officers ?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-
QUER(SirWILLIA HAncoURT) (Derby):
There was some misapprehension as to
the answer I gave the other day. The
Question was put with reference to
" supervisors of taxes, and I supposed
it to refer to the local officials. As sug-
gested in the Question, the local officers
are alone paid by commission. The
officers of the Government are paid by
salary.
ir. Harris


SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON
SUNDAY (IRELAND) ACT, 1878.
MR. THEODORE FRY (Darlington)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, If it is the in-
tention of Her Majesty's Government,
during the present Session of Parlia-
ment, to bring in a Bill similar to that
mentioned in the Queen's Speech opening
the Session of 1884, and subsequently
introduced by the then Chief Secretary
for Ireland, making the Irish Sunday
Closing Act of 1878 permanent, and ex-
tending its provisions to the five cities
and towns exempted from its full opera-
tions.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JoHn
MORLEY) (Nowcastle-on-Tyne): It is too
early in the Session to answer positively;
but we hope pretty confidently to bring
in a measure similar to that which my
right hen. Friend introduced in 1884.

IRISH CHURCH ACT, 1869-THE GLEBE
PURCHASERS.
MR. SEXTON (Sligo, S.) asked the
Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, Whether the Government,
in dealing with the case of the Irish
glebe purchasers, will have regard to
the condition of tenants who held their
farms on terminable leases, and pur-
chased them under the Church Act, by
paying one -fourth of the purchase
money, and giving an instalment mort-
gage for the remaining three-fourths;
and, if the Government will consider
whether such tenants should be admitted
to participate in the relief provided by
section twenty-three of The Purchase
of Land (Ireland) Act, 1885," and whe-
ther some relief should be afforded to
such tenants and all yearly tenants who
similarly purchased, in respect of the
one-fourth of the purchase money paid
down, and the excess of the price paid
over the true value ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JoHN
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne): I have
obtained a good many replies to inquiries
on the subject mentioned in the hon.
Member's Question, and there will be
great difficulty, probably insuperable
difficulty, in the way of reducing the
principal money agreed to be paid by
the tenants. I am also informed that
such a course would seriously affect
the financial position of the Commis-
sioners. I have consulted with my


Thle Glebie Pureo~hasers. 96






97 Law and Justice


hon. Friend the Secretary to the
Treasury as to the relaxation under
the 23rd section of the Purchase Act,
with a view to making provision for the
relief of purchasers who have not paid
their instalments. For that relaxation
I will co-operate with my hon. Friend.

BOARD OF WORKS (IRELAND)-
SYSTEM OF CONTRACTS.
Mn. PETER M'DONALD (Sligo, N.)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury, If
the several contracts by the Board of
Works in Ireland, especially in regard
to the supply of stores, furniture, &c., to
the Public Departments are open to
general competition after due notice by
advertisement in the leading Dublin and
provincial papers; or, whether a pre-
ferential intimation is merely given to
a limited number of traders to whom
thereby such contracts are in conse-
quence confined?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLEn) (Wol-
verhampton, E.), in reply, said, that the
means adopted to procure articles re-
quired by contract was based upon public
competition, except in cases where a
supply of one or two articles, which
were obtained direct from certain quar-
ters, which were found most suitable.
The supplies were obtained by public,
open competition, except for some very
small or special purposes, where, as in
the City of Dublin, it was found that
large firms would not compete. On this
account circulars were sent round to
certain persons.
Mn. BARRY (Wexford, S.) asked,
would the hon. Gentleman give the
names of the firms thus invited to com-
pete ?
MR. HENRY H. FOWLER: I am
unable to do so without Notice.
Mn. BARRY said, he would put a
further Question on the subject.

PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-
KINGSTOWN EAST PIER.
MR. PETER M'DONALD (Sligo, N.)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury,
Whether the Kingstown Township Com-
missioners can obtain the charge of the
footway of the East Pier, in view of the
fact that, until so taken in charge by
them, no expenditure out of the local
rates could be made for its improvement;
and, whether, if such charge cannot be
given to the Town Commissioners, the
VOL. CCCIV. [THIRD SERIES.]


Treasury will re-consider the matter, and
include in the Estimates a sum sufficient
to put the promenade portion in suitable
condition, the same as has been done at
Dover and elsewhere ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER) (Wol-
verhampton, E.), in reply, said, that
under the Harbours Act the Commis-
sioners of Public Works were unable
to act in the manner suggested. They
would offer no objection to the extension
of the works from other than public
funds.

AGRICULTURAL DEPRESSION CUL-
TIVATION OF TOBACCO IN THE
UNITED KINGDOM.
SmI EDWARD BIRKBECK (Nor-
folk, E.) asked Mr. Chancellor of the
Exchequer, Whether, with the view of
testing the practicability of tobacco
culture, he will allow experiments to
be made, under proper supervision, in
various parts of the United Kingdom ?
THE CHANCELLOROF THE EXCHE-
QUER(SirWILLIAM HARcoURT)(Derby):
Yes, Sir. Under proper supervision I
think this might be done.

LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-THE
RECENT WEXFORD MAIDEN ASSIZE.
MR. BARRY (Wexford, S.) asked the
Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, If his attention has been
drawn to the proceedings at the Wex-
ford Spring Assizes, where, according
to a report in The [Times of 26th March,
"Mr. Justice Johnson congratulated the
Grand Jury on the fact that there were no
prisoners for trial, notwithstanding the fact
that eight months had elapsed since a Judge
had last sat in Wexford ;"
and, whether he is aware that county
Wexford, for its size, contains more
branches of the National League than
any other county in Ireland?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN
MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne) : It is
quite true that there was a maiden
Assize at Wexford this spring. The
information in the possession of the
Government does not enable them to
decide whether the County Wexford
occupies the prominent position stated
by the hon. Member.
Mn. BARRY asked whether the right
hon. Gentleman was aware that there
had since been another maiden Assize at
Wexford ?
E


fINIARcH 29, 18861


(Ireland). 98







99 National Education


Mn. JOHN MORLEY said, he was
unaware of this fact.
MR. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.) asked,
if it was not the case that the Orange
Society had ramifications in Wexford ?
Mn. JOHN MORLEY: I cannot say.

MOROCCO-SLAVERY AT TANJIER-
CASE OF FATTAH.
MR. ALFRED PEASE (York) asked
the Under Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, Whether he is aware that con-
siderablelaxity existsin:allowing persons,
under the name of "servants," to enter
the port of Tanjier in British steamers,
.and also to be carried from that place
for sale in the Red Sea ports ; and, whe-
ther he will give such instructions to the
British Minister at Tanjier to make
representations to the Moorish Govern-
ment, so as to induce it to take such steps
as will arrest this form of the slave trade?
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Mr. BRYcE) (Aberdeen, S.):
No such information has reached Her
Majesty's Government; but they willbe
glad, if the hon. Member will furnish
the information on which his Question
is based, to instruct Her Majesty's Mi-
nister at Tangier to make all proper
inquiries, and, if .necessary, to address
a representation to the Moorish Govern-
ment on the subject.
MR. ALFRED PEASE (York) asked
the Under Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, Whether his attention has been
called to a case, which has been noticed
by the London press, of Fattah, a negro
who it is stated had been working at the
port of Tanjier for the last two years,
and was seized on Sunday evening the
7 1 )March (instant), and thrown into
the Tanjier dungeon by the Governor,
on the plea that a former master (Hddj
Hamu El-Lulisheri, now a state prisoner
at Fey), from whose cruelty he escaped
in 1878, claimed him as part of his
estate; whether he is aware that this
negro was purchased ten years ago in
Constantinople, carried to Gibraltar on
board a British steamer, and thence
transhipped to Morocco, when he fell
into the hands of Hddj Hamu El-
Lulisheri, the man now lying in Fey
prison; whether he is aware that, al-
though repeated and earnest representa-
tions were made, both to the Portuguese
Minister, and by the Correspondent of
British and Foreign Anti-Slavery Society
to the British Minister, Sir John Hay,


and, in spite of the fact that such an
arrest was contrary to Moslem law, the
Moorish authorities sent Fattahoff to
Fey, manacled, and with a heavy iron
chain round his neck; and, whether he
will communicate with Sir John Hay,
and secure, if possible, the immediate
release and restoration to freedom of
this man ?
Mn. BRYCE: The attention of the
Foreign Office has not been called to the
case. If my hon. Friend will state the
source of his information, inquiry will
be made forthwith.

NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)-
ATHY AND CLONMEL MODEL
SCHOOLS.
MAJoR SAUNDERSON (Armagh,
N.) asked the Chief Secretary to the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether it
is true that the Commissioners of Na-
tional Education in Ireland have ordered
that some of their smaller model schools
should be amalgamated and the head
mistresses in them reduced to the rank
and salary of assistants; whether the
Commissioners have complied with the
Petition of the Roman Catholic priests
and people of Clonmel, on behalf of the
head mistress of the girls' department
of the model school in that town, who is
a Roman Catholic; whether petitions
signed by the Protestants of all de-
nominations in the town and vicinity of
Athy had been forwarded to the Board
of National Education, in behalf of the
head mistress of the combined girls' and
infants' department of the Athy Model
School, who is a member of the Church
of Ireland; whether only a very small
proportion of the children attending the
girls' department of the Clonmel Model
School are Roman Catholics, while two-
thirds of those in the girls' and infants'
departments of the Athy Model School
are members of the Church of Ireland;
whether, during the four years that the
present head mistress has been in charge
of the Athy Model School, over 96 per
cent. of her pupils have succeeded in
passing at the annual results' examina-
tions; whether the head mistresses in
model schools are appointed by open
competitive examination; and, whether
Her Majesty's Government would ad-
vise the Commissioners of National
Education in Ireland to comply with
the petitions from Athy and to leave
their reforms in abeyance until they can


{COMMONS}


(Ireland). 100






101 Ireland-Anti-1bome


be carried out without interfering with
the vested interests of the teachers ?
TIE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.
JoHN MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne) :
It appears that until recently there were
two model schools in Athy, one for boys
and the other for girls and infants. The
attendance at the former having fallen
below the standard, it was resolved to
amalgamate the two schools; and as
there could not be two principals, it was
thought advisable to make the master,
who is resident in the school house, the
principal of the new school, the mistress
remaining as assistant there until an
opening could be found for her as prin-
cipal in some other model school. No
question of religion arose, as both were
Protestants. I am informed that the
Commissioners have now before them a
proposal under which it may be possible
to revert to the old arrangement of
having two schools. What happened
with regard to Clonmel was this. There
was a Petition, not of the Catholic priest
and people, for no priest signed it, but
of the Mayor and other persons, and its
prayer exactly tallied with the course
resolved upon by the Board.

CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-
INTIMIDATION AT DROMORE,
CO. CLARE.
CAPTAIN M'CALMONT (Antrim, E.)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his at-
tention has been drawn to the fact of
notices, of which the following is an ex-
tract, having been lately posted in the
neighbourhood of Dromore, County
Clare-
Now for the sake of liberty, country, and
nationality, we call upon you to avoid;all deal-
ings with that mongrel and rotten sloggard,
lame Tommy Crowe, of Dromore, let no one
buy or sell with him, lot no one work for him
in any way, the man that does shall meet a
sudden and untimely death; this is sworn by
Him that Rules above.
"By order of the Committee,
"C. Moonlight;"
whether three-fourths of Mr. Crowe's
labourers, on the appearance of this
notice, at once left their employment;
and, whether the Irish Executive are
unable to cope with tyranny of this de-
scription?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.
JOHN MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne) :
Notices containing the sentence quoted
were found to have been posted in the


locality in which Mr. Crowe resides;
and several of his labourers have left
his employment, alleging the notice as
the reason for doing so. The police at
once took steps to trace the printer or
publisher of the notice, which so far
have not been successful. They also
made arrangements for Mr. Crowe's
personal protection, with which he has
pronounced himself satisfied. The Go-
vernment would have readily supported
these men in resistance to this intimida-
tion should they have resolved upon
that course; but we have no power to
compel them to resume work, or to take
any steps in cases of the kind beyond
those which I have mentioned.
Mn. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Done-
gal, E.): I will ask the right hon. Gen-
tleman whether this configurated notice
was not put up until a number of
labourers had actually left this gentle-
man's employment ?
Mn. JOHN MORLEY: I am not
aware of that.

IRELAND-ANTI-HOME RULE
PETITIONS.
MR. SEXTON (Sligo, S.) asked the
Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland, with respect to the charge of
procuring by intimidation signatures to
Anti-Home Rule petitions in Ireland.
Whether the police have inquired into
the foundation of the statement in The
Drogheda Independent of the 13th inst.,
that in ditlr.iuit p.at- o:f LiIeath and
Louth, and in the neighborhoods of
Duleek and Bohermeen, the labouring
men on the different estates are com-
pelled to sign Anti-Home Rule Peti-
tions, under threats of disemployment
and in fear of starvation ; and, whether
inquiry has been made, as to a resolu-
tion adopted by the Keles Branch of the
National League, declaring-
That we condemn as heartless and tyran.
nical the action of those magnates who are
coercing their labourers and servants to sign an
Anti-Home Rule Memorial, in the hope that
they will thereby impose on Mr. Gladstone and
his Government "
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.
JorH MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne):
The police have made inquiries, and
they report that no intimidation is being
practised to procure signatures to anti-
Home Rule Petitions, as is alleged in
the newspaper statement and resolution
referred to in the Question.
E2


JIVAncri 29, 18861


Ru~le ~Petitions, 102






.Tramways (Scotland). 104


EGYPT-THE EGYPTIAN EXILES.
Mn. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)
asked the Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs, Whether, in view of
the facts that two Egyptian exiles in
Ceylon pleaded guilty of a charge which
involved the confiscation of their pro-
perty, by the advice of Her Majesty's
Representative in Egypt, on the distinct
assurance that they should receive pen-
sions adequate for their requirements
during their exile, and that the Gover-
nor of Ceylon reported in a despatch to
the Colonial Secretary, which was laid
before the last Parliament, that their
pensions are not adequate, Her Ma-
jesty's Government will see that they
are increased; and, whether Her Ma-
jesty's Government will use their good
offices with the Egyptian Government
to bring the exile of these gentlemen
from their native country to-a speedy
close ?
THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Mr. BRYCE) (Aberdeen, S.):
Her Majesty's Government are not
aware that the Egyptian exiles received
any such assurance as stated in my hon.
Friend's Question. The Papers pre-
sented to Parliament show the contrary
to be the case-see Egypt, No. 8, 1883,
page 3. In consequence of the repre-
sentations received from the Governor
of Ceylon, Her Majesty's Acting Agent
at Cairo was instructed in September
last to recommend to the Egyptian Go-
vernment an increase of the allowances
to the exiles, so as to put each of them
in receipt of 435 a-year, except Arabi
Pasha, who receives 600 a-year, and
who has refused to share his extra
allowance with his companions. Sir Eve-
lyn Baring's attention has recently been
called to the matter, and it is intended
to desire him officially to again commu-
nicate with the Egyptian Government
on the subject. Considering the causes
which led to the deportation of these
exiles, and the results which might
follow their return to Egypt, Her Ma-
jesty's Government can hold out no hope
that they will use their good offices in
the way suggested.
CIVIL SERVICE WRITERS AND
CLERKS.
Mn. MORGAN HOWARD (Camber-
well, Dulwich) asked the Secretary to
the Treasury, Whether any decision has


yet been arrived at with respect to the
claims of the Civil Service writers and
clerks; and, if not, when such decision
is likely to take place ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER) (Wol-
verhampton, E.): I hope very shortly
to be in a position to announce the
decision on the questions raised by the
lower division clerks and the writers
employed in the Government Depart-
ments.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE
(SCOTLAND)-POLLING PLACES-
LEGISLATION.
MR. MACFARLANE (Argyll) asked
the Lord Advocate, Whether he intends
to bring in a Bill dealing with the ques-
tion of the cost of Polling Places in Scot-
land ?
SmI HERBERT MAXWELL (Wig-
ton) asked, if the right hon. and learned
Gentleman would also inform the House
whether the Return which his Prede-
cessor had promised would shortly be in
the hands of hon. Members?
TIE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BALFOUR) (Clackmannan, &c.): I am
not in a position to answer that Ques-
tion at the moment. The Returning
Officers' Bill is in course of preparation;
but we have had to communicate in
Scotland with persons who are con-
cerned in the administration of the law
there, with a view to ascertaining what
minimum charges can be inserted in the
Schedule of the Bill.

THE CROFTERS BILL-TRAMWAYS
(SCOTLAND).
MR. MARK STEWART (Kirkcud-
bright) asked the Secretary to the Trea-
sury, Whether the Government will
consent to the facilities for the forma-
tion and working of tramways, given by
"The Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1883,"
being extended to those parts of Scot-
land included in the Crofters Bill of the
Government now before Parliament?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B.
BAI oF ) (Clackmannan, &c.) (who re-
plied) said: The question of extending
the provisions of the Tramways Act to
the Highlands of Scotland has not been
considered, because the Government
have been doing what is regarded as
much more material-largely improving
the steamer communication amongst the
Islands and on the coasts of the High-


103 ne Crofters Bill--


{COMMONS}






105 Provision for


lands with very great and immediate
advantage.
GREENWICH AGE PENSIONS.
SIR JOHN GORST (Chatham) asked
the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whe-
ther the Admiralty will withdraw the
regulation by which the amount of
Greenwich Pension is limited, to such
amount as raises the total received, as
pension, to 2s. 6d. per diem?
THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMI-
RALTY (Mr. R. W. Durr) (Banffshire)
(who replied) said: The Admiralty have
already withdrawn the limit as to 2s. 6d.
in such cases as they deem fit.
SIR JOHN GORST asked, how much
the change would cost ?
MR. R. W. DUFF: It will cost the
Charity about 500 a-year.
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-
BOGUS OUTRAGE AT CASTLECAUL-
FIELD, CO. TYRONE CASE OF
ROBERT CUDDY.
MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN (Tyrone,
S.) asked the Chief Secretary to the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Was it re-
ported to the police, that, on the night
of 21st December last, a man disguised
and with his face blackened visited the
houses of John Armstrong, Jonathan
Colbert, Thomas Armstrong, Samuel
Somerville, John Macwhinny, and Wil-
liam M'Kenna, near Castlecaulfield,
county Tyrone; is it the fact that the
man had a book with him, from which
he pretended to read, and in which he
seemed to make entries; that he asked
who lived in each house, and for whom
he had voted at the late election; said
he was from Dublin and had other boys
with him; that he told them to pay no
rent, or, if they did, they would not
have long to live; whether, when he
came to the house of M'Kenna, he said,
" All right, you are a Nationalist," and,
pointing to a schoolhouse, which had
been an Orange Lodge, said, "That
must be removed ;" was he hunted
down and captured by two men named
Bunnes and Armstrong, and did it tran-
spire that he was an Orangeman named
Robert Cuddy, junior; is it true that
Cuddy and his father were brought by
the police before a local justice, Colonel
Burgess, and discharged without a pro-
secution; and, was the case reported to
the resident magistrate, and have any
steps been taken to punish the author


of this outrage; and, if not, who is re-
sponsible ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.
JOHN MORLEY) (Newcastle-on-Tyne): In
connection with this case I have received
from Colonel Burgess a repudiation of
his having acted with any spirit of par-
tizanship in the matter. I have also
received from the Inspector General a
Report which puts the affair in a rather
serious light; and I have accordingly
laid the papers before the Attorney
General for his decision as to whether
a prosecution should be instituted
against Robert Cuddy, jun. I shall
then consider what further action the
circumstances of the case call for.
Mn. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: Will the
right hon. Gentleman undertake to sub-
mit the action of Colonel Burgess to the
Lord Chancellor ?
Mn. JOHN MORLEY: I have no
doubt that what Colonel Burgess did
will at the same time come within the
purview of the inquiry.
TRANSFER OF LAND AND HOUSE
PROPERTY-LEGISLATION.
MR. GOURLEY (Sunderland) asked
the First Lord of the Treasury, If it is
the intention of Her Majesty's Govern-
ment, during the present Session, to in-
troduce a Bill for the purpose of cheapen-
ing the transfer of land and house pro-
perty ?
THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. E.
GLADSTONE) (Edinburgh, Mid Lothian)
in reply, said, that the question was
receiving the full consideration of his
noble and learned Friend the Lord
Chancellor, but it was impossible to
give an answer in regard to it at pre-
sent, The Question was not so simple
as it looked, or as one unacquainted
with the subject might imagine, as it
involved rather a large consideration of
the manner in which land under entail
or settlement is dealt with.
PROVISION FOR THE ROYAL FAMILY.
Mn. HOWARD SPENSLEY (Fins-
bury, Central) asked the First Lord of
the Treasury, Whethei, in accordance
with the assurance given in the last
Parliament, he contemplates the ap-
pointment of a Committee to consider
the question of grants of money to the
Royal Family?
THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. E.
GLADSTONE) (Edinburgh, Mid Lothian):


IMAnenI 29, 18861


the Royal Fwnily.







Unopposed Returns. 108


It is quite accurate that an intention
was expressed in the course of last
Session by the Government then in
Office, consisting in great part of Mem-
bers of the present Government, to move
for the appointment of a Committee to
consider the question of grants of money
to the Royal Family, and that intention
is still retained. But with regard to the
precise time for asking the House to ap-
point that Committee, we are doubtful
whether the present time would be con-
venient when questions of great and ab-
sorbing interest and difficulty ara in
immediate prospect. I therefore cannot
say at what specific moment it may be
considered convenient to submit the
proposal to the House.
PROCEDURE UNOPPOSED RETURNS.
MR. BERESFORD HOPE (Cam-
bridge University): Iwishto ask the right
hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, Under what cir-
cumstances the Return No. 11 (Univer-
sities Oxford and Cambridge) moved for
by the hon. Member for Bermondsey
(Mr. Thorold Rogers) has been assented
to by the Home Office as an unopposed
Return ? The Return itself is of a very
comprehensive and inquisitorial cha-
racter; it has only appeared on -the
Paper to-day; and no intimation that
the hon. Member intended to move for
it was previously givento the Represen-
tatives of either Oxford or Cambridge
University.
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
CHILDERS) (Edinburgh, S.): I am not
quite sure that the term inquisitorial,"
which has been used by the right hon.
Gentleman, is strictly regular; but how-
ever that may be, I am very happy to tell
the right hon. Gentleman all I can with
reference to the Return. The application
for this Return was made by my hon.
Friend below the Gangway some weeks
ago, and when he made it I placed myself
in communication with the Vice Chan-
cellors of the two Universities of Oxford
and Cambridge. The communications
lasted for some time, and ultimately the
character of the Return was considerably
modified. After I had obtained the con-
currence of the two Vice Chancellors, I
was not aware that it was my duty to do
more than consent to the Return as an
unopposed Return. If I had known
that it was the custom to consult the
Members for the two Universities as
Mr. W. E. Gladstone


well as the officers of the Universities,
I would have been happy to do so; but
I have no recollection of any previous
occasion in which that was thought
necessary. In my opinion, the Return
itself will be an extremely useful one.
MR. THOROLD ROGERS (South-
wark, Bermondsey): As my right hon.
Friend the Home Secretary has stated,
I asked for the Return some time ago,
and I stated certain facts in connection
with it. I was unaware that it was
necessary to consult the Representa-
tives of the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge, or I certainly should have
done so, if only as a matter of common
courtesy. I know that the form of the
Return was submitted to the Vice Chan-
cellors of the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge, and that they made some
emendations in it; and, under those cir-
cumstances, I moved for the Return as
an unopposed Return at five minutes past
4 to-day. All I can say is, that I
asked you, Sir, when I should make the
Motion, and you were good enough to
say that it ought to be made after the
Private Business. As a dutiful Member
of the House I obeyed your ruling.
Mn. RAIKES (Cambridge University):
As to the form of this Return I will say
nothing; but I will ask the right hon.
Gentleman the Home Secretary, Whe-
ther his attention has been called to the
serious interference with the privileges
of the House that may arise from the
course pursued in the present case, if
an hon. Member is allowed to put
down a Notice one day of his intention
to move for a Return, and is then, on the
next Parliamentary day, to move for it
as an unopposed Return, with the con-
sent of the Department concerned ? I
must say that in such a case the juris-
diction of the House is altogether
ousted, and the judgment of the House
is precluded from being taken. I, there-
fore, ask my right hon. Friend whether
he will not lay it down, on behalf of the
Government, as a general principle, that
in granting unopposed Returns, the
Home Office will stipulate that a certain
time must elapse, so that hon. Members
who may object to them may have an
opportunity of expressing their opi-
nion
MR. CHILDERS: I think the sug-
gestion of my right hon. Friend is
not an unfair one, in the case of a com-
plicated. Return like the present one;


107 Proeedttre--


{COMMONS}






109 Crofters (Scotland)


but I do not think it would be necessary,
as a rule, to insist on its adoption in all
cases. Of course, there are many simple
Returns which it may be convenient to
moveforatonce. Imayadd that, although
I consented to this Return, I did not
know that it was to be moved for to-day.

PUBLIC BUSINESS-GOVERNMENT OF
IRELAND.
MINISTERIAL STATEMENT.
TIE FIRST LORD OF THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE) (Edin-
burgh, Mid-Lothian): I wish to say,
with regard to the course of Busi-
ness, that if the Committee on the
Crofters Bill should not be closed this
evening we shall proceed with it on
Thursday. But if, as I hope is possible,
it should be closed this evening, we should
propose to proceed with Supply as the
first Order on Thursday; and as the
Report on the Crofters Bill would pro-
bably not take much time we should
leave off Supply at an early hour to
take that Report, and after that redeem
the pledge we have given on the Sunday
Closing Bill. On a former evening I
said that I would give to-day the terms
of the Motion with regard to Ireland.
They will be for leave to bring in a Bill
to amend the provisions for the future
government of Ireland. That will be on
the 8th. On the 12th, so far as depends
on the Government, I will give further
information, if I can, as to the course of
Business; but on that day my right hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
proposes to produce the Budget; and
on the 15th I shall propose to ask leave
to bring in a Bill to make amended pro-
vision for the sale and purchase of land
in Ireland.

ORDERS OF TfE DAY.
-0-
CROFTERS (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL.
(lr. Trevelyan, The Lord Advocate, Mr.
Solicitor General for Scotland.)
BILL 118.] COMMITTEE.
MR. M'LAREN (Stafford), in rising
to move-
"That it be an Instruction to the said Com-
mittee that they have power to extend the
provisions of the Bill to other parts of Scot-
land,"
said, he was sure every Member inte-


rested in this Bill would agree with him
in regretting that the right hon. Mem-
ber for the Border Burghs (Mr. Tre-
velyan) would no longer have the official
conduct of the measure. Every Member
in that House knew that the right hen.
Gentleman took a sincere and a great
interest in the crofters; and he was sure
there was no Member of the Govern-
ment who [could have striven more
conscientiously to make the Bill a
thorough-going and useful measure.
Though they would no longer have the
advantage of his assistance in the Go-
vernment, they would hope to have his
powerful assistance as an independent
Member, and he trusted that Amend-
ments which the right hon. Gentleman
could not have supported as Secretary
for Scotland, he might be able to sup-
port as a private Member. The Bill
was limited to five counties named in
the Bill, and several Members had given
Notice of Amendments to extend that
provision. He understood that unless
the Committee had an Instruction to
extend the provision of the Bill it would
not be competent for any hon. Member
to move any such Amendment in Com-
mittee. The only object:of this Instruc-
tion was that the Committee should have
power to entertain these :Amendments
and to judge them on their merits. He
should like to have a definite ruling
from the Chair on this subject'; and he
therefore asked the Speaker whether it
would be competent for the Committee
to entertain any Amendment which
would bring other counties within the
scope of the measure unless some such
Instruction as this was carried ?
MR. SPEAKER: On looking at the
Bill, I am clearly of opinion that an
Instruction of the nature proposed to
be moved for by the hen. Member would
be distinctly necessary to empower the
Committee to do what otherwise they
would not be competent to do.
MR. M'LAREN said, that being the
case, he hoped that the Government, on
the understanding that this Instruction
was moved only for the purpose of ad-
mitting certain Amendments for discus-
sion, would be able to accede to his

Motion. He did not ask the Govern-
ment to commit themselves to any par-
ticular Amendment. He only asked
them to give power to the Committee
to take the Amendments into considera-
tion. The Bill at present did not proceed


{MARCH 29, 1886}


(.No. 2) Bill. 110






111 Crofters (Scotland)


on a logical principle. The House was
not accustomed to entertain measures
for altering the law with respect to par-
ticular counties. It had been of late
attempted to pass Sunday Closing mea-
sures for Durham and Cornwall; but
they had never been received with
favourbytheHouse. Theprinciplewhich
the House had always gone upon was
not to pass measures for particular geo-
graphical districts, but to pass measures
relating to special conditions of society
wherever these conditions might exist;
and he asked the House to consider whe-
ther it would not be a more logical appli-
cation of this principle of legislation to
say that this Bill should apply to all those
districts in Scotland where crofting con-
ditions existed. If this were done, it
would render the Bill a much more use-
ful, more satisfactory, and more com-
plete measure. Aberdeen and Perthshire
formed as important a part of the High-
lands as Inverness, and why should they
be excluded from the benefits of the
Bill? Why was an unfortunate farmer
in one district to be excluded from ad-
vantages which a farmer in another was
allowed to enjoy? If it was said that
the Commissioners only visited certain
counties, and only reported on certain
counties, then he thought that would be
taking advantage of a technicality which
would be unworthy of Her Majesty's
Government. The Commissioners had
power to go into any district they chose,
the scope of their Reference being the
Highlands and Islands of Scotland. He
thought the more the Government would
consider this point the more they would
see the justice and the expediency of
allowing the Committee to be unham-
pered when deciding on the details of
the Bill. The tenure this Bill proposed
to establish was beneficial; but some
persons doubted whether crofters could
really live on their holdings without the
aid of some other occupation, like fish-
ing. The hen. Gentleman the Member
for Kirkcudbrightshire had an Amend-
ment which would deal with the fishery
question, and it would be good to
give to all crofters, who could earn
some money by fishing, the privileges
of this Bill. Now, in some of the
counties to which he had alluded, par-
ticularly in Bute, there was every oppor-
tunity for allowing a crofter to hold a
little land, and also to do a little fishing;
and if the whole question was to have a
Mr. M.Laren


fair trial the House ought, as far as
possible, to extend the principle to dis-
tricts in which it was most probable that
the crofting system would succeed. The
crofters that would be benefited under
this Bill would form a very small class
indeed; and it was a very dangerous and
invidious thing to create, as this Bill
did, a small peasant aristocracy, having
privileges that were withheld from all
others of their class throughout Scotland
-an aristocracy which, by reason of the
smallness of their numbers and of the
restrictions with which this Bill was
hampered, would inevitably die out
unless the Bill were extended. He
humbly suggested that the only true
statesmanlike principle on which the
Bill could be carried out would be to
say that anyone who could say "I fulfil
the conditions of this Bill," might have
a right to avail himself of its provisions.
He hoped the Instruction would be ac-
cepted by the Government; and in Com-
mittee hon. Members who had already
Notices of Amendments would be able
to give ample reasons for asking that
the provisions of the Bill should be ex-
tended.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That it be an Instruction to the said Com-
mittee that they have power to extend the
provisions of the Bill to other parts of Scot-
land."-(Mr. M'Laren.)
Mn. J. H. A. MACDONALD (Edin-
burgh and St. Andrew's Universities)
said, he gathered from the hon. Gentle-
man's observations that his object was
to get the Government to allow this
Instruction to pass, practically without
argument, for the purpose of allowing
certain Amendments to be moved in
Committee, which Mr. Speaker had
ruled could not be moved without such
an Instruction. He thought that would
be a very inconvenient and very unsatis-
factory course, because it would be prac-
tically pledging this House in Committee
to consider a perfectly new matter; one
which had never been suggested in de-
bate before in this House, and which
had never been discussed in any way
throughout the country as a practical
question. He thought he was justified
in stating broadly and frankly that this
idea of dealing with this question as a
general question affecting all Scotland
was one which had never been discussed
by the community, and that there had


(COMMONS }


(No. 2) Bill. 112






113 Crofters (Scotland)


never been any facts laid before this
House, by Report or otherwise, to guide
them in the matter. It was an entirely
new idea, neither coming from the
people in the other districts of Scotland
themselves nor suggested by the Report
of the Royal Commission. The sole
ground for the Commissioners' inquiries,
the sole matter with which the Commis-
sion after its inquiries dealt, was nar-
rowed down to the consideration of the
condition of certain places and districts
in the West Highlands and Islands of
Scotland, where it was alleged that in
consequence of the conditions of the
population in the crofter townships
there was distress existing. The hon..
Gentleman opposite had not suggested-
and he would have been surprised if he
or anyone who knew anything about
Scotland had suggested it-that through-
out the districts of Scotland, not em-
braced in this Bill, there was distress
among any population similar to that in
the West Highlands and Islands which
should call in any way for the interven-
tion of Parliament; and if there was no
ground for considering the condition of
the people in the West Highlands and
Islands as different from that of the
people of a similar class in life in other
parts of Scotland, then there was no call
for proceeding to legislation on the sub-
ject at all. He ventured to submit that
the only ground for this legislation was
that there had been something anomalous
in the history of the West Highlands and
Islands which led to the distress that
now called for Parliamentary interfer-
ence; and it would need a strong case
in a Bill brought in expressly to meet
and to carry out a Report of the Royal
Commission to justify Parliament in not
limiting itself to the somewhat limited,
confined, and peculiar areas to which
the inquiries of the Commission had
been limited, and to extend it practically
to the whole of Scotland. He thought
the House would demand to know whe-
ther, when such proposal was made,
there was any ground in the Report or
the evidence of the Royal Commission
to show that there were other parts of
Scotland which were practically in the
same position as the West Highlands
and Islands ? The proposal was a very
extraordinary one to come from people
who had been parties to the issuing of
a Royal Commission, and to the con-
fining of that Commission, to the dis-


tricts with which it dealt. He presumed
they had not learned anything since the
Commission was issued which would
lead them to the conclusion that they
had then been ill-informed as to the
general state of Scotland, and that
they should have asked for an inquiry
with reference to the whole of Scot-
land. But if they did now think that
this matter could not be dealt with
finally without dealing with it on the
footing that the whole of Scotland should
be included, then the proper course would
be to move for another inquiry. Instead
of that, however, they were asked, on the
ipse dixit of the hen. Member for Staf-
ford and some other Members, to proceed
on the footing that although there had
been no inquiry made or suggested into
the state of matters in the rest of Scotland
they should proceed now to extend the
scope of the operation of the Bill, solely
and only because the hen. Member and
certain other Gentlemen said that they
believed there was other places in which
the general historical observations, it
might be, or the general features of the
country and population resembled to
some extent those in the West High-
lands and Islands. That would be a
very extraordinary instruction to give to
the Committee. They were at present
dealing with a Bill based on the idea of
carrying out the Report of the Royal
Commissions. But he was not, as a
matter of fact, surprised that some were
anxious to go outside the scope of the
Bill; because, in his own judgment, the
Government had taken an extraordinary
course in selecting one isolated item in
the Report of the Royal Commission,
and proposing to carry it out in one
way, and now by an Amendment they
had on the Paper proposing to carry it
out in an entirely different way. The
recommendations and opinions of the
Commissioners as to what was required
to meet the distress in the Highlands
were absolutely ignored by the Govern-
ment; and not only so, but the main
recommendations upon which the Com-
mission declared any legislation that
followed would have any real and per-
manent beneficial effect upon the popu-
lation of the Highlands had also been
ignored down to the present time. It
was suggested in the Motion that the
Bill should apply in any part of Scotland
where it could be ascertained that simi-
lar circumstances prevailed to those in


I MAncH 29, 1886


(No. 2) Bill. 114i




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