• TABLE OF CONTENTS
HIDE
 Title Page
 Table of Contents
 March 1886
 Index to Hansard's parliamentary...














Title: Hansard's parliamentary debates
ALL VOLUMES CITATION PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00072012/00002
 Material Information
Title: Hansard's parliamentary debates
Physical Description: 361 v. : ; 23-25 cm.
Language: English
Creator: Great Britain -- Parliament
Hansard, T. C ( Thomas Curson ), 1776-1833
Publisher: s.n.
Place of Publication: S.l
Manufacturer: T.C. Hansard
Publication Date: 1829-1891
 Subjects
Subject: Politics and government -- Periodicals -- Great Britain -- 19th century   ( lcsh )
 Notes
Dates or Sequential Designation: New ser., v. 21 (Mar./June 1829)-v. 25 (June/July 1830); 3rd ser., v. 1 (Oct./Dec. 1830)-v. 356 (July/Aug. 1891).
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00072012
Volume ID: VID00002
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: oclc - 07655885
lccn - sn 85062630
 Related Items
Preceded by: Parliamentary debates (1820-1829)
Succeeded by: Parliamentary debates (1892-1908)

Table of Contents
    Title Page
        Title Page 1
        Title Page 2
    Table of Contents
        Table of Contents 1
        Table of Contents 2
        Table of Contents 3
        Table of Contents 4
        Table of Contents 5
        Table of Contents 6
        Table of Contents 7
        Table of Contents 8
        Table of Contents 9
        Table of Contents 10
        Table of Contents 11
        Table of Contents 12
        Table of Contents 13
        Table of Contents 14
        Table of Contents 15
        Table of Contents 16
        Table of Contents 17
        Table of Contents 18
        Table of Contents 19
        Table of Contents 20
        Table of Contents 21
        Table of Contents 22
        Table of Contents 23
        Table of Contents 24
        Table of Contents 25
        Table of Contents 26
        Table of Contents 27
        Table of Contents 28
        Table of Contents 29
        Table of Contents 30
        Table of Contents 31
        Table of Contents 32
        Table of Contents 33
        Table of Contents 34
        Table of Contents 35
        Table of Contents 36
        Table of Contents 37
        Table of Contents 38
        Table of Contents 39
        Table of Contents 40
        Table of Contents 41
        Table of Contents 42
        Table of Contents 43
        Table of Contents 44
        Table of Contents 45
        Table of Contents 46
    March 1886
        Page 1-2
        Friday, March 5 - House of Lords
            Page 1-2
        Friday March 5 - House of Commons
            Page 5-6
            Questions
                Page 5-6
                Page 7-8
                Page 9-10
                Page 11-12
                Page 13-14
                Page 15-16
                Page 17-18
            Orders of the day
                Page 19-20
                Page 21-22
                Page 23-24
                Page 25-26
                Page 27-28
                Page 29-30
                Page 31-32
                Page 33-34
                Page 35-36
                Page 37-38
                Page 39-40
                Page 41-42
                Page 43-44
                Page 45-46
                Page 47-48
                Page 49-50
                Page 51-52
                Page 53-54
                Page 55-56
                Page 57-58
                Page 59-60
                Page 61-62
                Page 63-64
                Page 65-66
                Page 67-68
                Page 69-70
                Page 71-72
                Page 73-74
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                Page 77-78
                Page 79-80
                Page 81-82
                Page 83-84
                Page 85-86
                Page 87-88
        Monday, March 8 - House of Lords
            Page 89-90
            Motions
                Page 89-90
                Page 91-92
                Page 93-94
        Monday, March 8 - House of Commons
            Page 95-96
            Notice of resolution
                Page 97-98
            Questions
                Page 97-98
                Page 99-100
                Page 101-102
                Page 103-104
                Page 105-106
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                Page 109-110
                Page 111-112
                Page 113-114
                Page 115-116
                Page 117-118
                Page 119-120
                Page 121-122
                Page 123-124
            Orders of the day
                Page 125-126
                Page 127-128
                Page 129-130
                Page 131-132
                Page 133-134
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                Page 185-186
                Page 187-188
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                Page 195-196
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                Page 203-204
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                Page 207-208
                Page 209-210
                Page 211-212
                Page 213-214
                Page 215-216
                Page 217-218
        Tuesday, March 9 - House of Lords
            Page 219-220
            Motions
                Page 219-220
                Page 221-222
                Page 223-224
                Page 225-226
                Page 227-228
                Page 229-230
                Page 231-232
        Tuesday, March 9 - House of Commons
            Questions
                Page 291-292
                Page 293-294
                Page 295-296
                Page 297-298
                Page 299-300
                Page 301-302
            Motions
                Page 303-304
                Page 305-306
                Page 307-308
                Page 309-310
                Page 311-312
                Page 313-314
                Page 315-316
                Page 317-318
                Page 319-320
                Page 321-322
                Page 323-324
                Page 325-326
                Page 327-328
                Page 329-330
                Page 331-332
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                Page 337-338
                Page 339-340
                Page 341-342
                Page 343-344
                Page 345-346
                Page 347-348
                Page 349-350
                Page 351-352
                Page 353-354
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                Page 359-360
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                Page 365-366
            Page 233-234
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            Page 267-268
            Page 269-270
            Page 271-272
            Page 273-274
            Page 275-276
            Page 277-278
            Page 279-280
            Page 281-282
            Page 283-284
            Page 285-286
            Page 287-288
            Page 289-290
        Wednesday, March 10 - House of Commons
            Page 367-368
            Order of the day
                Page 367-368
                Page 369-370
                Page 371-372
                Page 373-374
                Page 375-376
                Page 377-378
                Page 379-380
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                Page 397-398
                Page 399-400
                Page 401-402
                Page 403-404
                Page 405-406
                Page 407-408
        Thursday, March 11 - House of Lords
            Page 409-410
            Motions
                Page 409-410
                Page 411-412
                Page 413-414
                Page 415-416
        Thursday, March 11 - House of Commons
            Page 417-418
            Page 419-420
            Page 421-422
            Questions
                Page 433-434
                Page 435-436
                Page 437-438
                Page 439-440
                Page 441-442
                Page 443-444
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                Page 449-450
                Page 451-452
                Page 453-454
                Page 455-456
                Page 457-458
                Page 459-460
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                Page 465-466
                Page 467-468
                Page 469-470
                Page 471-472
                Page 473-474
                Page 475-476
                Page 477-478
            Orders of the day
                Page 479-480
                Page 481-482
                Page 483-484
                Page 485-486
                Page 487-488
                Page 489-490
                Page 491-492
                Page 493-494
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                Page 499-500
                Page 501-502
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                Page 513-514
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                Page 563-564
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                Page 575-576
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                Page 581-582
                Page 583-584
                Page 585-586
                Page 587-588
                Page 589-590
                Page 591-592
                Page 593-594
                Page 595-596
                Page 597-598
                Page 599-600
            Page 423-424
            Page 425-426
            Page 427-428
            Page 429-430
            Page 431-432
        Friday, March 12 - House of Lords
            Page 601-602
            Page 603-604
            Page 605-606
            Page 607-608
            Page 609-610
            Page 611-612
            Page 613-614
            Page 615-616
            Page 617-618
            Page 619-620
            Page 621-622
        Friday, March 12 - House of Commons
            Questions
                Page 623-624
                Page 625-626
                Page 627-628
                Page 629-630
                Page 631-632
                Page 633-634
                Page 635-636
                Page 637-638
                Page 639-640
                Page 641-642
            Page 623-624
            Orders of the day
                Page 643-644
                Page 645-646
                Page 647-648
                Page 649-650
                Page 651-652
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                Page 655-656
                Page 657-658
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                Page 731-732
                Page 733-734
                Page 735-736
                Page 737-738
            Motions
                Page 739-740
        Monday, March 15 - House of Lords
            Page 741-742
            Page 743-744
            Page 745-746
            Page 747-748
            Page 749-750
            Page 751-752
            Page 753-754
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            Page 761-762
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            Page 771-772
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            Page 777-778
            Page 779-780
            Page 781-782
            Page 783-784
            Page 785-786
        Monday, March 15 - House of Commons
            Questions
                Page 789-790
                Page 791-792
                Page 793-794
                Page 795-796
                Page 797-798
                Page 799-800
                Page 801-802
                Page 803-804
                Page 805-806
                Page 807-808
                Page 809-810
                Page 811-812
                Page 813-814
                Page 815-816
                Page 817-818
                Page 819-820
                Page 821-822
                Page 823-824
                Page 825-826
            Order of the day
                Page 827-828
                Page 829-830
                Page 831-832
                Page 833-834
                Page 835-836
                Page 837-838
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                Page 915-916
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                Page 919-920
                Page 921-922
            Page 787-788
        Tuesday, March 16 - House of Lords
            Page 923-924
            Page 925-926
            Page 927-928
            Page 929-930
            Page 931-932
            Page 933-934
            Page 935-936
            Page 937-938
            Page 939-940
            Page 941-942
            Page 943-944
            Page 945-946
        Tuesday, March 16 - House of Commons
            Private business
                Page 947-948
                Page 949-950
                Page 951-952
                Page 953-954
                Page 955-956
                Page 957-958
                Page 959-960
                Page 961-962
                Page 963-964
                Page 965-966
            Page 947-948
            Questions
                Page 967-968
                Page 969-970
                Page 971-972
                Page 973-974
                Page 975-976
                Page 977-978
                Page 979-980
            Motions
                Page 981-982
                Page 983-984
                Page 985-986
                Page 987-988
                Page 989-990
                Page 991-992
                Page 993-994
                Page 995-996
                Page 997-998
                Page 999-1000
                Page 1001-1002
                Page 1003-1004
                Page 1005-1006
                Page 1007-1008
                Page 1009-1010
                Page 1011-1012
                Page 1013-1014
                Page 1015-1016
                Page 1017-1018
                Page 1019-1020
                Page 1021-1022
                Page 1023-1024
                Page 1025-1026
                Page 1027-1028
                Page 1029-1030
                Page 1031-1032
                Page 1033-1034
                Page 1035-1036
                Page 1037-1038
                Page 1039-1040
                Page 1041-1042
                Page 1043-1044
                Page 1045-1046
                Page 1047-1048
            Orders of the day
                Page 1049-1050
                Page 1051-1052
                Page 1053-1054
                Page 1055-1056
        Wednesday, March 17 - House of Commons
            Page 1057-1058
            Orders of the day
                Page 1057-1058
                Page 1059-1060
                Page 1061-1062
                Page 1063-1064
                Page 1065-1066
                Page 1067-1068
                Page 1069-1070
                Page 1071-1072
                Page 1073-1074
                Page 1075-1076
                Page 1077-1078
                Page 1079-1080
                Page 1081-1082
                Page 1083-1084
                Page 1085-1086
                Page 1087-1088
                Page 1089-1090
                Page 1091-1092
                Page 1093-1094
                Page 1095-1096
                Page 1097-1098
                Page 1099-1100
                Page 1101-1102
                Page 1103-1104
                Page 1105-1106
                Page 1107-1108
                Page 1109-1110
                Page 1111-1112
                Page 1113-1114
                Page 1115-1116
                Page 1117-1118
                Page 1119-1120
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                Page 1123-1124
                Page 1125-1126
                Page 1127-1128
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                Page 1131-1132
                Page 1133-1134
        Thursday, March 18 - House of Lords
            Page 1135-1136
            Motions
                Page 1135-1136
                Page 1137-1138
                Page 1139-1140
                Page 1141-1142
                Page 1143-1144
                Page 1145-1146
                Page 1147-1148
                Page 1149-1150
        Thursday, March 18 - House of Commons
            Page 1151-1152
            Questions
                Page 1153-1154
                Page 1155-1156
                Page 1157-1158
                Page 1159-1160
                Page 1161-1162
                Page 1163-1164
                Page 1165-1166
                Page 1167-1168
                Page 1169-1170
                Page 1171-1172
                Page 1173-1174
                Page 1175-1176
                Page 1177-1178
                Page 1179-1180
                Page 1181-1182
            Orders of the day
                Page 1183-1184
                Page 1185-1186
                Page 1187-1188
                Page 1189-1190
                Page 1191-1192
                Page 1193-1194
                Page 1195-1196
                Page 1197-1198
                Page 1199-1200
                Page 1201-1202
                Page 1203-1204
                Page 1205-1206
                Page 1207-1208
                Page 1209-1210
                Page 1211-1212
                Page 1213-1214
                Page 1215-1216
                Page 1217-1218
                Page 1219-1220
                Page 1221-1222
                Page 1223-1224
                Page 1225-1226
                Page 1227-1228
                Page 1229-1230
                Page 1231-1232
                Page 1233-1234
                Page 1235-1236
                Page 1237-1238
                Page 1239-1240
                Page 1241-1242
                Page 1243-1244
                Page 1245-1246
                Page 1247-1248
                Page 1249-1250
                Page 1251-1252
                Page 1253-1254
                Page 1255-1256
                Page 1257-1258
                Page 1259-1260
                Page 1261-1262
                Page 1263-1264
                Page 1265-1266
                Page 1267-1268
                Page 1269-1270
                Page 1271-1272
                Page 1273-1274
                Page 1275-1276
                Page 1277-1278
                Page 1279-1280
                Page 1281-1282
                Page 1283-1284
                Page 1285-1286
                Page 1287-1288
                Page 1289-1290
                Page 1291-1292
                Page 1293-1294
                Page 1295-1296
                Page 1297-1298
                Page 1299-1300
                Page 1301-1302
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                Page 1307-1308
                Page 1309-1310
                Page 1311-1312
                Page 1313-1314
                Page 1315-1316
                Page 1317-1318
                Page 1319-1320
                Page 1321-1322
                Page 1323-1324
        Friday, March 19 - House of Lords
            Page 1325-1326
            Motions
                Page 1325-1326
                Page 1327-1328
                Page 1329-1330
                Page 1331-1332
                Page 1333-1334
                Page 1335-1336
                Page 1337-1338
                Page 1339-1340
                Page 1341-1342
                Page 1343-1344
                Page 1345-1346
                Page 1347-1348
        Friday, March 19 - House of Commons
            Page 1349-1350
            Questions
                Page 1349-1350
                Page 1351-1352
                Page 1353-1354
                Page 1355-1356
                Page 1357-1358
                Page 1359-1360
                Page 1361-1362
                Page 1363-1364
                Page 1365-1366
                Page 1367-1368
                Page 1369-1370
                Page 1371-1372
                Page 1373-1374
            Orders of the day
                Page 1375-1376
                Page 1377-1378
                Page 1379-1380
                Page 1381-1382
                Page 1383-1384
                Page 1385-1386
                Page 1387-1388
                Page 1389-1390
                Page 1391-1392
                Page 1393-1394
                Page 1395-1396
                Page 1397-1398
                Page 1399-1400
                Page 1401-1402
                Page 1403-1404
                Page 1405-1406
                Page 1407-1408
                Page 1409-1410
                Page 1411-1412
                Page 1413-1414
                Page 1415-1416
                Page 1417-1418
                Page 1419-1420
                Page 1421-1422
                Page 1423-1424
                Page 1425-1426
                Page 1427-1428
                Page 1429-1430
                Page 1431-1432
                Page 1433-1434
                Page 1435-1436
                Page 1437-1438
                Page 1439-1440
                Page 1441-1442
                Page 1443-1444
                Page 1445-1446
                Page 1447-1448
                Page 1449-1450
                Page 1451-1452
                Page 1453-1454
        Monday, March 22 - House of Lords
            Page 1455-1456
            Page 1457-1458
            Page 1459-1460
            Page 1461-1462
            Page 1463-1464
            Page 1465-1466
            Page 1467-1468
            Page 1469-1470
            Page 1471-1472
        Monday, March 22 - House of Commons
            Page 1473-1474
            Questions
                Page 1473-1474
                Page 1475-1476
                Page 1477-1478
                Page 1479-1480
                Page 1481-1482
                Page 1483-1484
                Page 1485-1486
                Page 1487-1488
                Page 1489-1490
                Page 1491-1492
                Page 1493-1494
                Page 1495-1496
                Page 1497-1498
                Page 1499-1500
                Page 1501-1502
                Page 1503-1504
            Orders of the day
                Page 1505-1506
                Page 1507-1508
                Page 1509-1510
                Page 1511-1512
                Page 1513-1514
                Page 1515-1516
                Page 1517-1518
                Page 1519-1520
                Page 1521-1522
                Page 1523-1524
                Page 1525-1526
                Page 1527-1528
                Page 1529-1530
                Page 1531-1532
                Page 1533-1534
                Page 1535-1536
                Page 1537-1538
                Page 1539-1540
                Page 1541-1542
                Page 1543-1544
                Page 1545-1546
                Page 1547-1548
                Page 1549-1550
                Page 1551-1552
                Page 1553-1554
                Page 1555-1556
                Page 1557-1558
                Page 1559-1560
                Page 1561-1562
                Page 1563-1564
                Page 1565-1566
                Page 1567-1568
                Page 1569-1570
                Page 1571-1572
                Page 1573-1574
                Page 1575-1576
                Page 1577-1578
                Page 1579-1580
                Page 1581-1582
                Page 1583-1584
                Page 1585-1586
                Page 1587-1588
                Page 1589-1590
                Page 1591-1592
                Page 1593-1594
                Page 1595-1596
                Page 1597-1598
                Page 1599-1600
        Tuesday, March 23 - House of Lords
            Page 1601-1602
            Page 1603-1604
            Page 1605-1606
            Page 1607-1608
            Page 1609-1610
            Page 1611-1612
            Page 1613-1614
            Page 1615-1616
            Page 1617-1618
            Page 1619-1620
            Page 1621-1622
            Page 1623-1624
            Page 1625-1626
        Tuesday, March 23 - House of Commons
            Page 1627-1628
            Questions
                Page 1627-1628
                Page 1629-1630
                Page 1631-1632
                Page 1633-1634
                Page 1635-1636
                Page 1637-1638
                Page 1639-1640
                Page 1641-1642
            Motions
                Page 1643-1644
                Page 1645-1646
                Page 1647-1648
                Page 1649-1650
                Page 1651-1652
                Page 1653-1654
                Page 1655-1656
                Page 1657-1658
                Page 1659-1660
                Page 1661-1662
                Page 1663-1664
                Page 1665-1666
                Page 1667-1668
                Page 1669-1670
                Page 1671-1672
                Page 1673-1674
                Page 1675-1676
                Page 1677-1678
                Page 1679-1680
                Page 1681-1682
                Page 1683-1684
                Page 1685-1686
                Page 1687-1688
                Page 1689-1690
                Page 1691-1692
                Page 1693-1694
                Page 1695-1696
                Page 1697-1698
                Page 1699-1700
                Page 1701-1702
                Page 1703-1704
                Page 1705-1706
                Page 1707-1708
                Page 1709-1710
                Page 1711-1712
                Page 1713-1714
                Page 1715-1716
                Page 1717-1718
                Page 1719-1720
            Orders of the day
                Page 1721-1722
                Page 1723-1724
                Page 1725-1726
        Wednesday, March 24 - House of Commons
            Page 1727-1728
            Motions
                Page 1727-1728
            Orders of the day
                Page 1727-1728
                Page 1729-1730
                Page 1731-1732
                Page 1733-1734
                Page 1735-1736
                Page 1737-1738
                Page 1739-1740
                Page 1741-1742
                Page 1743-1744
                Page 1745-1746
                Page 1747-1748
                Page 1749-1750
                Page 1751-1752
                Page 1753-1754
                Page 1755-1756
                Page 1757-1758
                Page 1759-1760
                Page 1761-1762
                Page 1763-1764
                Page 1765-1766
                Page 1767-1768
                Page 1769-1770
                Page 1771-1772
        Thursday, March 25 - House of Lords
            Page 1773-1774
            Thursday, March 25 - House of Commons
                Page 1775-1776
            Questions
                Page 1775-1776
                Page 1777-1778
                Page 1779-1780
                Page 1781-1782
                Page 1783-1784
                Page 1785-1786
                Page 1787-1788
                Page 1789-1790
                Page 1791-1792
                Page 1793-1794
                Page 1795-1796
                Page 1797-1798
                Page 1799-1800
                Page 1801-1802
                Page 1803-1804
                Page 1805-1806
                Page 1807-1808
            Orders of the day
                Page 1809-1810
                Page 1811-1812
                Page 1813-1814
                Page 1815-1816
                Page 1817-1818
                Page 1819-1820
                Page 1821-1822
                Page 1823-1824
                Page 1825-1826
                Page 1827-1828
                Page 1829-1830
                Page 1831-1832
                Page 1833-1834
                Page 1835-1836
                Page 1837-1838
                Page 1839-1840
                Page 1841-1842
                Page 1843-1844
                Page 1845-1846
                Page 1847-1848
                Page 1849-1850
                Page 1851-1852
                Page 1853-1854
                Page 1855-1856
                Page 1857-1858
                Page 1859-1860
                Page 1861-1862
                Page 1863-1864
                Page 1865-1866
                Page 1867-1868
                Page 1869-1870
                Page 1871-1872
                Page 1873-1874
                Page 1875-1876
                Page 1877-1878
                Page 1879-1880
                Page 1881-1882
                Page 1883-1884
                Page 1885-1886
                Page 1887-1888
                Page 1889-1890
                Page 1891-1892
                Page 1893-1894
                Page 1895-1896
                Page 1897-1898
                Page 1899-1900
                Page 1901-1902
                Page 1903-1904
                Page 1905-1906
                Page 1907-1908
                Page 1909-1910
                Page 1911-1912
                Page 1913-1914
                Page 1915-1916
                Page 1917-1918
                Page 1919-1920
                Page 1921-1922
                Page 1923-1924
                Page 1925-1926
                Page 1927-1928
                Page 1929-1930
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    Index to Hansard's parliamentary debates, volume CCCIII: Second volume of session 1886
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Full Text



IIANSARD'S


PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

THIRD SERIES:


SjPPLIE
FCOR THE
/C SER


COMMENTING WITH THE ACCESSION OF


D WILLIAM IV.


490 VICTORIEE,


1886.


VOL. CCCIII.
COMPRISING THE PERIOD FROM

THE FIFTH DAY OF MARCH 1886,

TO
THE TWENTY-FIFTH DAY OF MARCH 1886.


SECOND VOLUME OF THE SESSION.


LONDON:
PUBLISHED BY CORNELIUS BUCK & SON,
AT THE OFFICE FOR "HANSARD'S PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,"
22, PATERNOSTER ROW. [E.C.]

1886.
















TABLE OF CONTENTS

TO


VOLUME 00C II1



THIRD SERIES.



LORDS, FRIDAY, MARCH 5. Page
Drill Grounds Bill (No. 24)-
Mloved, That the Bill be now read 2a,"-(The Lord Sandhurst) ..
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2" accordingly, and com-
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
FEMALE INSPECTORS OF WoRIsnors-Question, Observations, Viscount
Enfield; Reply, Lord Thurlow .... .. 4
[4.45.]
COMMONS, FRIDAY, MARCH 5.

Q QUESTIONS.
--o
MINES REGULATION ACT-THE Boo COLLIERY EXPLOSION-Question, Mr.
Mason; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Childers) ... .. 6
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-ALLEGED "BOYCOTTING OF NATIONALISTS
-Questions, Mr. W. O'Brien, Mr. Johnston; Answers, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. .. 7
THE MAGISTRACY (ENGLAND AND WALES)-THE WORTHING MAGISTRATES,
SUssEx-Question, Mr. Bradlaugh; Answer, The Secretary of State for
the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 8
LAW AND JUSTICE-IMPRISONMENT FOR CONTEMPT OF COURT-Question, Mr.
Thomas; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Childers) .. .. 8
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) ACT-REMUUNERATION OF POOR RATE
COLLECTOns-Question, Mr. P. J. O'Brien; Answer, The Secretary to
the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. 9
HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE (IRELAND)-QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION-JUDOES
LAWSON AND O'BRIEN-Question, Mr. Chance; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 10
VOL. COCIII. [THID SERIES.] [ ]







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[March 5.] Page
TRADE STATISTICS-THE TRADE OF IRELAND-Question, Mr. Baden-Powell;
Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 10
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND)-VOLUNTARY ScHooLs -Question, Sir Archibald
Campbell; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) .. 11
CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACT-PLEURO-PNEUMONIA-Question, Mr.
Duckham; Answer, The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr.
Heneage) ...... .. .. 12
ARMY-REWARDS FOR DISTINGUISHED SERVICES Question, Mr. T. H.
Bolton; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-
Bannerman) ...... .... 13
THE HOUSE OF COMMONS-AccOMMODATION FOR MEMBERS-Questions, Mr.
Pyne, Mr. Mitchell Henry; Answers, A Lord of the Treasury (Mr.
Leveson Gower) .... ... 13
ARMY-SUPPLY OF MARTINI-HENRY RIFLES-Question, Viscount Folkestone;
Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman).. 14
ARMY-ENFIELD SMALL ARMS FACTORY-DISCHARGE OF WORKMEN-Ques-
tions, Sir Henry Tyler, Viscount Folkestone; Answers, The Secretary
of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. .. .14
BOARD OF WORKS (IRELAND)-LOAN TO THE WEST CLARE RAILWAY COM-
rANY-Question, Mr. Cox; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) ...... 15
THE ROYAL LIVER SOCIETY-REPORT OF THE INSPECTOR-Question, Dr.
Clark; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. .. .. 16
METROPOLIS-PUBLIC MEETINGS-Question, Sir Henry Tyler; Answer, The
Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 16
DISQUALIFICATION OF VOTERS-THE LABOUR TEST-Question, Mr. Bigwood;
Answer, The Secretary to the Local Government Board (Mr. Jesse
Collings) .. ... 16
CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS-THE PUBLIC PROSECUTOR-Question, Mr. Picton;
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) 17
LAW AND POLICE-COST OF THE POLICE FORCE-Notice of Question, Mr.
James Stuart; Question, Mr. Dwyer Gray; Answer, The Secretary of
State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 18
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)--MURDER OF PATRICK FINLAY, AT WOOD-
FORD, Co. GALWAY-Question, Mr. Macartney; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley); Questions, Mr. Gill, Captain
M'Calmont [no reply] .... .. .. 18
yIRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-" BOYCOTTING "-THE NATIONAL LEAGUE
-Question, Mr. Macartney; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .... .. 19

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o0-

SUPPLY-Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question pro-
posed, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair: "-
REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT-RESOLUTION--Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words in the opinion of this House, it is inconsistent with the principles of
lRepresentative Government, that any Member of either House of the Legislature
should derive his title to legislate by virtue of hereditary descent,"-(Mr. Labouchere,)
-instead thereof .. .. .. .. ** 20
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question: "-After debate, Question put:-The House divided;
Ayes 202, Noes 166; Majority 36.
Division List, Ayes and Noes .... .. 50







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LMAarch 5.1 Page
SUPPLY-Order for Committee read-continued.
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," again pro-
posed:-
THE FISHING INDUSTRIES (ENGLAND AND WALES)-INSTITUTION OF A
FISHERY BOARD Observations, Sir Edward Birkbeck :-Debate
thereon .... .. .... 53
Main Question, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and
agreed to.
SurrLY-considered in Committee.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.
POST OFFICE, SUBMARINE TELEGRAPH CONTRACT (ST. VINCENT TO THE
WEST COAST OF AFRICA)-RESOLUTION [ADJOURNED DEBATE]-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [4th March],
"That the Contract, dated the 19th day of January 1886, for the Construction of a
Submarine Telegraph Line from the Island of St. Vincent to the West Coast of
Africa be approved."
Question again proposed :-Debate resumed .. 67
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word approved," in order to in-
sert the words "referred to a Select Committee,"--(Mr. Henniker
Heaton,)--instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the word 'approved' stand part of the
Question: "-After debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes
199, Noes 34; Majority 165.-(Div. List, No. 19.)
Main Question put, and agreed to.

Freshwater Fisheries (Eels) Bill [Lords] [Bill 128]-
Mfoved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Mr. Broadhurst) 80
Motion agreed to:-Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday
next

Metropolitan Board of Works (Water Supply, &c.) Bill-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to
Question [24th February], That the Bill be now read a second time."
And which Amendment was, to leave out the word "now," and at the
end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"-
(Mr. Coope)
Question again proposed, That the word 'now' stand part of the Ques-
tion: "-Debate resumed .. .. .. 81
After short debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 76, Noes
130; Majority 54.-(Div. List, No. 20:)-Words added.
Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to :-Second Reading put of
for six months.
Trees (Ireland) Bill [Bill 30]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Jlr. Gilhooly) 88
After short debate, Motion agreed to:-Bill read a second time, and
committed for Monday next.

M OPTIONS.
-o--
Metropolitan Commons Provisional Order Bill-Ordered (Mr. Broadhurst, Mr.
Secretary Childers); presented, and read the first time [Bill 132J ... 89
SALMON AND TROUT FISHING (IRELAND)--
Select Committee appointed .. .. 5 89
[11.45.1






TABLE OF CONTENTS.


LORDS, MONDAY, MARCH 8. Page

COLONIAL POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS-PACIFIC MAIL STEAMERS-VANCOUVER
AND HONG KONG-Question, Observations, The Earl of Harrowby;
Reply, The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Earl Granville) .. 90
[5.0.]


COMMONS, MONDAY, MARCH 8.
CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS-AYLESBURY ELECTION .. 96

NOTICE.
-o-

JAPAN-TREATIES WITH EUROPEAN POWERS-Notico Of Resolution, Mr.
Hanbury; Question, Mr. Sexton; Answer, Mr. Speaker .. 97

Q QUESTIONS.
--o---

BRITISH COMMERCIAL INTERESTS ABROAD-DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR
REPRESENTATIVES Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) ... 97
STATE OF IRELAND-THE ORANGE LODGEs-Questions, Mr. O'Kelly, Mr.
Johnston, Mr. Sexton; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .... 98
HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE (CHANCERY DIVISION) Question, Mr. Ince;
Answer, The Attorney General (Mr. Charles Russell) .... 99
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-THE VOLUNTEER FoRCE-Question, Mr. Mitchell
Henry; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-
Bannerman) .......... 99
EGYPT-SUPPLIES FOR THE SOUDANESE-Questions, Mr. Dillon; Answers,
The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 100
SECRET SOCIETIES (IRELAND)-COURTS IN ORANGE LODGES-Question, Mr.
W. O'Brien; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley); Questions, Mr. O'Kelly, Mr. J. O'Connor [no reply] 100
DISTRESS IN THE METROPOLIS-THE EAST END-DWELLINGS FOR THE POOR
-Question, Mr. Seton-Karr; Answer, The President of the Local
Government Board (Mr. J. Chamberlain) .. 102
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-THE TEMPLEDERRY POST OFFICE-Questions, Mr.
P. J. O'Brien, Mr. W. O'Brien; Answers, The Secretary to the Trea-
sury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. .. 103
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (ENGLAND AND WALES)-DAN-Y-GRAIG SCHOOL,
SWANsEA-Question, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Vice Presi-
dent of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .... .. 105
THE LORD LIEUTENANT OF IRELAND-THE DEAN OF TIE CHAPEL ROYAL-
Question, Mr. W. O'Brien ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) . .. 106
INDIA-THE INDEPENDENT NATIVE STATES-THE MARTINI-HENRY RIFLE-
Questions, Lord Randolph Churchill; Answers, The Secretary of State
for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. .. .. 107
EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS ACT (SCOTLAND), 1882--MIss LUCY CAMPBELL'S
BEQUEST Question, Mr. Macfarlane; Answer, The Secretary for
Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) .. .. .. 108
INLAND NAVIGATION AND DRAINAGE (IRELAND)-TIE DRAINAGE OF THE
RIVER SCK--Question, Mr. Harris; Answer, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) ... 109






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LiMarch 8.] Page
VACCINATION-FATAL RESULTS AT EYDE (ISLE OF WIGHT)-Question, Mr.
Picton; Answer, The President of the Local Government Board (Mr.
J. Chamberlain) .. .. .109
SLAVERY IN BRAZIL-THE SARAIVA ACT-Question, Sir Joseph Pease;
Answer, The Under Secretary of Stite for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) 109
IRELAND-THE "FREEMAN'S JOURNAL" OFFICE AT RATIIMINES-Question,
Mr. Johnston; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) 110
THE CHARITY COMMISSIONERS-THE PAROCHIAL CHARITIES OF THE CITY OF
LoNDoN-Question, Mr. Carvell Williams; Answer, The Vice Presi-
dent of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .. .. 110
PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND)-CONVICT LABOUR -Question, Mr. Arthur
O'Connor; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 111
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-ACTION OF THE KILMACOW NATIONAL
LEAGUE-Question, Captain M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... .112
POOR LAw (IRELAND)-SUPPLY OF DRUGS FOR DISPENSARIEs-Question,
Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .. 112
THE 'NEW PUBLIC OFFICES-THE PLANS FOR RE-ARRANGEMENT-Question,
Mr. Story-Maskelyne; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
/ Henry H. Fowler) ..... 113
/CHURCH OF IRELAND-COLLECTION OF THE TITHE RENT-CHARGE-Question,
Mr. Stanley Leighton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) ...... 113
LAW AND JUSTICE (ENGLAND AND WALES)-THE FORESHORE OF TEIGNMOUTH
HARBouR-Question, Mr. Seale-Hayne; Answer, The Secretary of
State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .114
EXCISE-HOME-GROWN ToBAcco-Questions, Sir Edward Birkbeck, Mr.
Pyne; Answers, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William
Harcourt) .... ... 114
LIQUOR TRAFFIC IN THE NORTH SEA-CONFERENCE AT THE HAGUE-QueS-
tion, Sir Edward Birkbeck; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. .. 115
POon LAW (IRELAND) ELECTION OF GUARDIANS Question, Mr. W.
O'Brien; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 116
EASTERN ROUMELIA-CUSTOMS CORDON-Question, Mr. Bourke; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 116
SOUTH AFRICA (BECHUANALAND)-SIR CHARLES WARREN'S EXPEDITION-
Question, Mr. Portman; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman) ... 117
ENGLAND AND IRELAND-A SUBMARINE TUNNEL Question, Colonel
Blundell; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 117
IRELAND (EvICTIONs)-THE HIGH SHERIFF OF DUBLIN-Question, Mr. De
Cobain; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 118
LAW AND JUSTICE (ENGLAND AND WALES)-CASE OF WILLIAM BRIGHTWELL
Questions, Mr. Cremer, Mr. Serjeant Simon; Answers, A Lord of
the Treasury (Mr. Leveson Gower) .. .. 119
WORKMEN ON GOVERNMENT BUILDINGs-Question, Mr. Cremer; Answer,
A Lord of the Treasury (Mr. Leveson Gower) 120
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) ACT-EXPENSES OF PREPARING LISTS-
Questions, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answers, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 121
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-ATTACK ON MRS. HAMILTON, LANGAN-
Question, Captain M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley).. .. 122






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 8.] Page
MAI-RIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER-LEGISLATION-Question, Mr.
H. Gardner; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William
Harcourt) .. ...... .. 122
PRIVILEGE-Question, Mr. Dillon; Answer, Mr. Speaker .... 123
DISTRESS IN IRELAND-SUPPLY OF SEED-Questions, Mr. Deasy, Mr. Dillon;
Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 123

ORDER OF THE DAY.
-o-

Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2) Bill [Bill 1181-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-((Mr. Secretary for
Scotland) .... .. .... 125
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words it is requisite that any measure intended for the improvement of the con-
dition of the population of the Islands on the West Coast of Scotland should make
provision for assisting the voluntary emigration of families from congested dis.
tricts,"--(Mr. Ramsay,)- instead thereof.
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After long debate, Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed, to:-Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted for Monday next.

MOTIONS.
---o--.

Railway and Canal Traffic Bill-
ltoved, That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of Railway
and Canal Traffic; and for other purposes,"-(Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 219
Debate adjourned till Thursday.

Solicitors' Annual Certificate Duty Bill-Ordered (Mr. O'Bea, Mr. Deasy, Mr.
Dwyer Gray, Mr. Arthur O'Connor, Mr. Sexton); presented, and read the first time
[Bill 133] .......... 219
HYDE PARK CORNER (NEW STREETS) BILL-
Select Committee to consist of Five Members, Three to be nominated by the House, and
Two by the Committee of Selection .... 219
L12.45.]

LORDS, TUESDAY, MARCH 9.

Burgh Police and Health (Scotland) Bill-
Bill for regulating the police and sanitary administration of towns and
populous places; and for facilitating the union of police and municipal
administration in burghs in Scotland-Presented (The Earl of Elgin);
read 1" (No. 28) .. .. .. .. 220

-Arbitration Bill (No. 17)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2',"-(The Lord Bramwell) .. 220
After short debate, Motion agreed to:-Bill read 21 accordingly.

Justices' Jurisdiction Bill (No. 18)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a,"-(The Lord Bramwell) .. 222
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2& accordingly.







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 9.] Page
Law of Evidence Amendment Bill (No. 19)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 21,"-(The Lord Bramwell) .. 223
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 2' accordingly.
NATIONAL GALLERY-HOURS OF OPENING-ADDRESS FOR, A PAPER-
lMoved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for copy of a Memo-
randum drawn up and signed by the Director and Trustees of the National Gallery
with reference to the risks and inconvenience attending the proposed opening of
the Gallery on week days up to 10 p.m.,"- (The Viscount Sidmouth) .. 230
After short debate, Address agreed to.
RAILWAYS-ALLOTMENTS TO SERVANTS-Question, Observations, The Mar-
quess of Huntly; Reply, The Lord President of the Council (Earl
Spencer) ... ...... 232
[6.0.]

COMMONS, TUESDAY, MARCH 9.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
--o-0
Manchester Ship Canal Bill (by Order)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Charles Forsler) 233
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words upon this day six months,"-(Lord
Claud 1Hamilton.)
Question proposed, "That the word now stand part of the Question: "
-After debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be referred to a Committee to'be nominated by the Committee of
Selection,''-(Lord Claud Hamilton) .. 275
After short debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 61, Noes
375; Majority 314.
Division List, Ayes and Noes .. .. 278
Moved, That the Votes of the Right honourable David Plunket and
Mr. Tipping be disallowed,"--(Jr. Sexton) .. .. 282
After short debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 81, Noes
291 ; Majority 210.-(Div. List, No. 22.)
The Entry in the Votes ...... 284
Bill committed.
Midland Railway Bill (by Order)-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to
Question [2nd March], That the Bill be now read a second time."
And which Amendment was,
To leave out from the word That to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words this House, whilst not unwilling to consider favourably an application from
the said Company, under proper conditions, for power to make arrangements with
other Companies tending to economist the cost of transport to the Company, refuses
to entertain the same as a mere incident in a Bill for miscellaneous objects, and un-
accompanied by the offer of any compensating advantages to the public,"-(Sir
Bernhard Samuelson,) -instead thereof.
Question again proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand
part of the Question: "-Debate resumed .. 285
After short debate, Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question again proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second
time: "-After further short debate, Main Question put, and agreed o :
-Bill read a second time, and committed.
VOL. CCCIII. [THIID SERIES.] L 0 1






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[.arch 9.] Page

Q QUESTIONS.
-o-

PARLTAMENTARY ELECTIONS (IRELAND)-THE MID-ARMAGH DIVISION-DIS-
TURBANCE AT TANDERAGEE-Question, Mr. Alexander Blane; Answer,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 292
ARMY-ORDNANCE-HIEAVY SERVICE GUNS -Question, Mr. Brand; Answer,
The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. 293
ARMY-RIFLE RANGES--WORMWOOD ScRUBBs-Question, Mr. Howard
Vincent; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-
Bannerman) .. .. .. .... 294
THE LONDON CUSTOMS-SURVEYORS-Question, Colonel Makins; Answer,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 294
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-BANTRY PIER-Question, Mr. Gilhooly;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 295
NAVY-COALING PORTS FOR H.M. SHIPs oF WAR-RETURN OF DEFENDED
AND UNDEFENDED PORTs--Question, Viscount Lewisham; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) 295
LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACT, 1881 SuB-COMMISSIONERS SITTINGS IN
CORx CITy-Question, Mr. Deasy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ...... 296
PUBLIC LUNATIC ASYLUMS, IRELAND-Question, Mr. W. J. Corbet; An-
swer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 296
IRELAND-THE LEGISLATIVE UNION-ADDRESS OF THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH
-Questions, Sir James Corry, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach; Answers,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 298
ARMS LICENCES (IRELAND)-CASE OF JOHN DUNSEATI-Question, Dr.
Tanner; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 298
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (SCOTLAND)-THE CODE FOR 1886-Question, Mr.
Menzies; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) .. 299
BOUNTIES ON FOREIGN GOODs-Questions, Mr. Kimber, Mr. Ritchie;
Answers, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 300
POST OFFICE-THE AMERICAN MAILS-Question, Mr. Giles; Answer, The
Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. 300
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-TELEGRAPI OFFICE AT BUNDORAN-Question, Mr.
Macartney; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ........ .. 301
METROPOLIS-OLERKENWELL AND COLDBATH FIELDS PRISONS-Question, Mr.
Howard Spensley; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the
Homed Department (Mr. Broadhurst) ...... 301
INSPECTORS OF FISHERIES (IRELAND)-LOANs-Question, Mr. Harris; An-
swer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 302
Poon LAW (IRELAND)-THE DONAGHMORE UNION-Question, Mr. O'Mara;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 302
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) -MURDER OF PATRICK FINLAY-Question,
Captain M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .. .... 303
INLAND NAVIGATION AND DRAINAGE (IRELAND)-THE BARROW DRAINAGE-
Question, Mr. Lalor; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .. .. .. 303
STEAMSHIPS BETWEEN VANCOUVER AND JAPAN-THE INTER-DEPARTMENTAL
COMMITTEE-Question, Mr. Puleston; Answer, The Under Secretary
of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) .... 304







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[Miarch 9.1 Tage

MOTIONS.
-o---
MEETING OF THE HOUSE-ASH WEDNESDAY-
Moved, "That this House will meet To-morrow at Two of the clock,"-
(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer) 304
After short debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 156, Noes
82; Majority 74.-(Div. List, No. 23.)
CHURCH OF ENGLAND IN WALES-RESOLUTION-
Moved, That, as the Church of England in Wales has failed to fulfil its professed
object as a means of promoting the religious interests of the Welsh people, and
ministers to only a small minority of the population, its continuance as an Established
Church in the Principality is an anomaly and an injustice which ought no longer to
exist,"-(Mr. Dillzyn) .. .. 305
Amendment proposed,
To leave out all the words after the word population," in line 4, and insert the
words, this House is of opinion that the time has arrived for introducing, without
delay, into its organisation such reforms as will enable it to adapt itself more
efficiently to the religious needs and wishes of the Welsh people,"--(lr. Albert
Grey,)-instead thereof.
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part'of
the Question:"-After debate, Question put:-The House divided;
Ayes 229, Noes 241; Majority 12.
Division List, Ayes and Noes ...... 358
Question proposed, That those words be there added" .. .. 361
After short debate, Question put:--The House divided; Ayes 251, Noes
152; Majority 99.-(Div. List, No. 25.)
Main Question, as amended, proposed 366
After short debate, Main Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 49,
Noes 346; Majority 297.-(Div. List, No. 26.) [2.15.]


COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 10.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-
Public Health Acts (Improvement Expenses) Bill [Bill 7J-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. Dodds) .. 367
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time,
and committed for Tuesday 23rd March.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill [Bill 27]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Joseph
Pease) .... .. 376
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"-(Mr,
Addison.)
Question proposed, That the word 'now stand part of the Question: "
-After debate, it being a quarter of an hour before Six of the clock,
the Debate stood adjourned till To-morrow.

MOTIONS.
-0-
Municipal Rates Bill-Ordered (Mr. Joseph Cowen, Mr. Dodds, Mr. David Smith)
presented, and read the first time [Bill 134] ...... 409






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
L[farch 10.] Page
Commissioners Clauses Act (1847) Amendment Bill- Ordered (Mr. Warmington,
Mr. Thomas Price, Mr. Winterbotham) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 135] 409
Places of Worship Sites Bill-Ordered (Lr. John Ellis, Mr. Borlase, Mr. Burt, Mr.
M'Arthur, Mr. Henry Wilson); presented, and read the first time [Bill 136] 409
[5.50.]


LORDS, THURSDAY, MARCH 11.

BURMAH-ALLEGED DANGEROUS POSITION OF A GARRISON NEAR MANDALAY
-Question, Viscount Oranbrook; Answer, The Secretary of State for
India (The Earl of Kimberley) ..... 410
GOVERNMENT or INDIA-MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE. JOINT C0Ol-
MITTEE OF INQUIRY-
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to join with a Committee of the
Commons to inquire into the operation of the following Acts of Parliament:-
Statute 21st and 22nd Vict. chap. 106. An Act for the better Government of India
(1858), and the Acts of Parliament amending the same :
Statute 24th and 25th Vict. chap. 67. The Indian Councils Act (1861), together with
the statutory provisions amending the same, and those relating to the Executive
Councils of the Governors of Madras and Bombay:
"Statute 24th and 25th Vict. chap. 104. (1861). An Act for establishing High Courts of
Judicature in India:
"Statute 24thand 25th Vict. chap. 54. (1861). An Act to confirm certain appointments
in India, and to amend the law concerning the civil service there :
Statute 33rd Vict. chap. 3. (1870). An Act to make better provision for making
laws and regulations in certain parts of India, and for certain other purposes relating
thereto,"-( The Earl of Kimberley) .. ...... 410
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-List of the Committee .. 417
NAVAL CONSTRUCTION-Question, Viscount Sidmouth; Answer, The First
Lord of the Admiralty (The Marquess of Ripon) .... 417

Salmon Fisheries Amendment (Scotland) Bill [I.L.]-Presented (The lMarquess of
Huntly); read la (No. 30) ...... .. 417
[5.0.]


COMMONS, THURSDAY, MARCH 11.

PRIVATE BUS INESS.
-0-
Felixztowe Railway and Dock Bill (by Order)-
Joved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. Dodds) .. 418
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"--( 1r.
Charles Wilson.)
Question proposed, That the word now' stand part of the Question : "
-After debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Main Question put, and agreed to:-Bill read a second time, and
committed.

Q QUESTIONS.
-o-
ARnm (INDIA)-ROYAL WARRANTS-INSPECTORS OF ARMY SCHOOLs-Ques-
tion, Mr. Sidney Herbert; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
India (Sir Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) .. .. 433






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
L[March 11.1 Page
POST OFFICE-THE METEOROLOGICAL SOCIETY-TRANSMISSION OF METEORO-
LOGICAL REPORTS-Question, Sir Richard Paget; Answer, The Secre-
tary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 434
THE TRUCx ACTS-INFRINGEMENT IN SOUTH WALES-Question, Mr. Brad-
laugh; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Childers) .. .. ...... 435
PUBLIC HEALTH-M. PASTEUR'S TREATMENT OF HYDROPIIOBIA-QOestions,
Sir Henry Roscoe, Dr. Cameron; Answers, The President of the Local
Government Board (Mr. J. Chamberlain). .. 435
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) ACT-PAYMENT OF CLERKS OF UNIONS
-Questions, Mr. A. Blanc, Mr. P. J. O'Brien, Colonel Waring; An-
swers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 437
FRIENDLY SOCIETIES ACT, 1876-JURISDICTION OF COUNTY COURT JUDGES
-Question, Mr. Duncan; Answer, The Attorney General (Sir Charles
Russell) .. .. .. 438
FRANCE-ARREST OF MESSRS. WEYMAN NEAR OLonRN-Question, Mr.
Addison; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) ...... .... 439
SEED SUPPLY (IRELAND) ACT-FOURTH INSTALLMENT OF SEED RATE-POST-
PONEMENT OF PAYMENTS-Questions, Colonel Nolan, Mr. Arthur
O'Connor; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) ... .. .. 439
EGYPTIAN AND SOUTH AFRICAN EXPEDITIONS-THE ~WAR CONTRACTS-
Question, Dr. Cameron; Answer, The Surveyor General of the
Ordnance (Mr. Woodall) .... .. .. 441
MR. BRADLAUGH-Question, Mr. Norris; Answer, The Attorney General (Sir
Charles Russell) .. .. ... 441
NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS (IRELAND)-GRATUITY TO A DECEASED
TEACHER'S REPRESENTATIVES-CASE OF R. O'FLYNN, NEWPORT, Co.
MAYo-Question, Mr. Deasy; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. .. .. 442
INLAND REVENUE-DOG LICENCES-Question, Mr. Mark Stewart; Answer,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 442
TRADE STATISTICS-Question, Sir Julian Goldsmid; Answer, The President
of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .... 443
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-CAPPA PIER-Question, Mr. Jordan; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 443
ENFIELD SMALL ARMS FACTORY-DISCHARGE OF GOVERNMENT WORKMEN-
Question, Mr. Pitching; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman) .... .. 443
MERCHANT SHIPPING-THE WRECK OF THE "LESLIE "-Questions, Mr.
Arthur O'Connor; Answers, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .......... 444
METROPOLIS-WORK FOR THE UNEMPLOYED-NEW POLICE STATION AT
HOLLOWAY--Question, Mr. Bartley; Answer, The Secretary of State
for the Home Department (Mr. Childers)...... 444
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-BOARD SCHOOLS-INFANT SCHOOL ATTENDANCE-
Question, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) 445
LAW AND JUSTICE-DURHAM QUARTER SESSIONS-INEQUALITY OF SENTENCES
-Question, Mr. T. Fry; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Childers). .. .. .. 445
TRADE AND COMMERCE-BRITISH COMMERCIAL INTERESTS ABROAD-Ques-
tions, Sir Julian Goldsmid, Mr. Tomlinson; Answers, The Under
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 416
IRELAND-THE MAGISTRACY-THE ENNISTYMON MAGISTRATES- Question, Mr.
Jordan; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 447







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[March 11.] Page
CHARITABLE BEQUESTS (IRELAND)-THE EATON BEQUEST-Question, Mr.
W. J. Corbet; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. ...... .. 448
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-- URAL LETTER CARRIERS-THE BALLINGLEN AND
MOYNE POSTMAN-Question, Mr. W. J. Corbet; Answer, The Secretary
to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) ...... 449
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-ELECTRIC COMMUNICATION IN THIS HOUSE-
Question, Mr. Buxton; Answer, A Lord of the Treasury (Mr. Leveson
Gower) .. .. ...... 450
PUBLIC MEETINGS (IRELAND)-SPEECII OF MR. W. H. H. LYONS-Questions,
Mr. Sexton; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) ... ... 450
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) INTIMIDATION Questions, Captain
M'Calmont, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answers, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley); Question, Mr. M. J. Kenny [no reply] .. 451
CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT (IRELAND)-VETERINARY PORTAL INSPECTORS-
Question, Mr. Cox; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .. .... .. 452
TITHE RENT-CIARGES (IRELAND)-EXTENSION OF TIME FOR PAYMENT BY
LANDLORDS-Question, Mr. R. Power; Answer, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. 452
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-TEELIN PIER-Question, Mr.
Kelly; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) 453
ARMY-GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS-Question, Sir Henry Tyler; Answer, The
Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. 453
LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACTS 1883 AND 1885-APPEALS TO PRIVY COUNCIL
AGAINST SCHEMES-Question, Mr. Tuite; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 454
HOUSE OF COMMONS-ACCOMMODATION OF MEMBERS-LOCKERS--Question,
Mr. O'Hanlon; Answer, A Lord of the Treasury (Mr. Leveson
Gower) .. ... .. 454
CIVIL SERVICE WRITERS-Question, Lord Claud Hamilton; Answer, The
Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 454
COMMISSIONERS OF NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND) THE LISTOWEL
SCHOOLS-Questions, Mr. Stack, Mr. Sexton; Answers, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 455
ARMY-DEFERRED PENSIONS-CASE OF JAMES BRADY-Question, Mr.
O'Hanlon; Answer, The Financial Secretary, War Department (Mr.
Herbert Gladstone) ... 455
RAILWAYS (INDIA)-THE SCINDE, PUNJAUB, AND DELHI RAILWAY-QueS-
tion, Mr. E. R. Russell; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
India (Sir Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) .. 456
SOUTH AFRICA-AFFAIRS OF BASUTOLAND-Question, Mr. Leake; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) 456
COMMONS AND OPEN SPACES (METROPOLIs)-A RECREATION GROUND FOR
FULHAM-Question, Mr. Fisher; Answer, The Chairman of the Metro-
politan Board of Works (Sir James M'Garel-Hogg) .... 458
EVICTION OF PITMEN (DURHAM)-Questions, Mr. A. E. Pease, Mr. John
Wilson (Durham, Houghton-le-Spring), Mr. Arthur O'Connor; An-
swers, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) 458
CURRENCY, &C.-THE APPRECIATION OF GoLD-Questions, Sir George
Campbell, Mr. Montagu; Answers, The President of the Board of
Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. ...... 460
NAVY-H.M.S. BENBOW -Question, Mr. Leicester; Answer, The Secre-
tary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) ...... 460
TRADE AND COMMERCE-COMMERCIAL INTERCOURSE WITH SPAIN AND THE
UNITED STATES Question, Mr. Tomlinson; Answer, The Under
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .... 461






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
LMarch 11.] Page
LITERATURE, SCIENCE, AND ART-SCULPTURES AT THE BRITISH MUSEUM-
Questions, Mr. Tomlinson; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler) ........ 461
INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (WALES)-LEGISLATION-Question, Mr. Kenyon;
Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .. 463
THE METROPOLITAN POLICE-PENSIONS--SIR EDMUND HENDERSON AND
MR. WALKER-Question, Sir George Campbell; Answer, The Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 463
LAW AND JUSTICE (BANKRUPTCY)-ESTATE OF DR. FORBES WINSLOW-
Question, Mr. Brunner; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade
(Mr. Mundella) .... .. .. 464
METROPOLIS-DWELLINGS OF THE WORKING CLASSES-INQUIRY AT ST.
JAMES AND ST. JOHN, CLERKENWELL-QUestion, Sir Robert Fowler;
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Childers) .. .. 465
POST OFFICE-PROVISIONAL APPOINTMENTS-Question, Mr. Radcliffe Cooke;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) 465
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-THE KEEPER OF THE VICTORIA TOWER-Question,
Mr. Radcliffo Cooke; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) .... ... 466
METROPOLITAN POLICE COURTS-FINES AND PENALTIES-Question, Mr.
Kenyon; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department
(Mr. Childers) ... .. 466
POST OFFICE-TRANSMISSION OF PRINTED MATTER AT ELECTIONS-Ques-
tion, Mr. W. H. James; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) .. .... 466
PoST OFFICE (IRELAND)-TELEGRAPH, &C. STATION AT TORY ISLAND-
Question, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. 467
AFRICA (EAST COAST) -ZANZIBAR DELIMITATION COMMISSION-Question,
Mr. F. S. Stevenson; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 468
AFRICA (EAST COAST) ANNEXATIONS IN ZANZIbAR Question, Mr.
Hutton; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) .. .. .. 468
AFRICA (EAST COAST)-THE SLAVE TRADE BLUE BooK-Question, Mr.
Hutton; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) .. .. .. .. .. 468
POOR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)-AGED COUPLES IN WORKHOUSES-
Question, Mr. F. S. Stevenson; Answer, The President of the Local
Government Board (Mr. J. Chamberlain) .. .. 469
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-BOARDS OF GUARDIANS AND THE GOVERNMENT-
Question, Mr. Sexton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .... .. .. 469
METROPOLIS-WORK FOR THE UNEMPLOYED-THE NEW STREET FROM
GREAT DOVER STREET, BOROUGH Question, Mr. Radcliffe Cooke;
Answer, The Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works (Sir
James M'Garel-Hogg) ...... .. 470
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-ARD AND MASON ISLAND PIERS,
Co. GALWAY-Question, Mr. Sheehy; Answer, The Secretary to the
Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. 471
JAMAICA-FEVER AT PORT RoYAL-Question, Sir Julian Goldsmid; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .... 471
LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND)-LOAN FOR BUILDING-CASE OF JOHN
M'NAMARA, BRAWNEY, Co. WESTEATII-Question, Mr. D. Sullivan;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 472
POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANK-Question, Mr. De Cobain; Answer, The
Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. ., 473







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 11.] Page
BRITISH MUSEUM-DISMISSAL OF WILLIAM BRIGHTWELL-QeOStiOnS, Mr.
Cremer, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answers, A Lord of the Treasury
(Mr. Leveson (ower) .. .. .. 473
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBORS (SCOTLAND)-DUES AT GIRVAN HARBOUR-
Question, Mr. Macfarlane; Answer, The President of the Board of
Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. .. .. .. 474
TnE MAN-CHESTER SHIP CANAL-Questions, Mr. Baden-Powell; Answers,
The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .... 474
ENFIELD SMALL ARMS FACTORY-DISMISSAL OF WORKMEt Question,
Viscount Folkestone; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman) .... .. 475
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS-POLLING ARRANGEMENTS-Question, Sir Henry
Meysey Thompson; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Childers) .. .. 476
.METROPOLIS-DWELLINGS OF THE WORKING CLASSES-THE MIDDLESEX
HOUSES OF DETENTION AND CORRECTION-Question, Mr. Baumann;
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Childers) ..... .... 476
ARMY-SURPLUS STOnES-THE PLANT OF THE SUAKIN-BERBER RAILWAY-
Question, Mr. Jackson; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman) .... .... 477
BOARD OF TRADE-REPORT OF THE LIGHTHOUSE ILLUMINANTS COMMITTEE-
Question, Lord Claud Hamilton; Answer, The President of the Board
of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 477
NAvY-REDUCTION OF DOCKYARD EMPLOYES-Question, Mr. Puleston; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) 478
SCARCITY OF EMPLOYMENT-TIIE RETURN--Question, Mr. A. J. Balfour;
Answer, The President of the Local Government Board (Mr. J. Cham-
berlain) .. .. .. .. 479

ORDERS OF THE DAY.


SUPPLY-considered in Committee-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-
(In the Committee.)
CLASS I.-PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
(I.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 31,997, be
granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of pay-
ment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Maintenance
and Repair of Royal Palaces" .. .. 47
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 23,723, be
granted, &c.,"--(Mr. Labouchiere:) After short debate, Question put:-The
Committee divided; Ayes 125, Noes 240; Majority 115.-(Div. List, No. 27.)
Original Question again proposed ... .. 487
After short debate, Original Question put, and agreed to.
(2.) 1,625, Marlborough House.
(3.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 112,619, be
granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of pay-
ment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Royal
Parks and Pleasure Gardens" .. .. 493
Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding 62,216, be
granted, &c.,"-(Mfr. Labouchere :)-After debate, Question put The Com-
mittee divided; Ayes 131, Noes 114; Majority 17.-(Div. List, No. 28.)
(4.) 47,865, Houses of Parliament.-After short debate, Vote agreed to .. 509
(S.) 500, Gordon Monument.
(6.) 192,221, Public Buildings, Great Britain.-After debate, Vote agreed to ,. 529
(7.) 19,060, Furniture for Public Offices, Great Britain.
(8.) 227,464, Revenue Department Buildings, Great Britain.
(9.) 29,150, County Court Buildings.
(*o.) 6,370, Metropolitan Police Court Buildings.
(II.) 9,360, Sheriff Court Houses, Scotland.






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[lfareh 11.1 Page
SUrrLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-Committee-continued.
(12.) 258,000, Surveys of the United Kingdom.-After short debate, Vote agreed to 545
(13.) 19,742, Science and Art Department Buildings.
(14.) 11,477, British Museum Buildings.-After short debate, Vote agreed to .. 546
(i5.) 17,598, Harbours, &c. under the Board of Trade.-After short debate, Vote
agreed to. ......... 547
(16.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 1,000, be
granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of pay-
ment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for constructing a
*new Harbour at Dover" .. .. 548
After short debate, Moved, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to
sit again," (Mr. Rylands :)-After further short debate, Question put, and
agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee also report Progress;
to sit again To-morrow.
Railway and Canal Traffic Bill-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [8th March],
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of Railway and Canal
Traffic; and for other purposes"
Question again proposed :-Debate resumed .. 553
After debate, Question put, and agreed to:-Bill ordered (Mr. Mundella,
Mr. Acland, Mr. Attorney General); presented, and read the first time
[Bill 138.]
Employers' Liability Act (1880) Amendment (No. 2) Bill -
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mfr. Burt) .. 598
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted to the Select Committee on Employers' Liability Act (1880)
Amendment Bill.

CROFTERS (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) [REMUNERATION TO OFFICERS, &C.]-
Considered in Committee .. 600
Resolution agreed to ; to be reported To-morrow.
COMMONS-
Select Committee appointed and nominated :-List of the Committee .. .. 600
[2.15.1
LORDS, FRIDAY, MARCH 12.
TIE NEW PUBLIC OFFICES-THE NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY-Observa-
tions, Lord Lamington:-Debate thereon .... 601
THE NATIONAL MUSEUMS-EVENING OPENING-MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS-
Moved, That a humble address be presented to Her Majesty praying that Her Majesty
will be pleased to direct that the National Gallery, the British Museum, and the
Natural History Museum shall be open to the public weekly on three week-day
evenings till 10 p.m., in order that Her Majesty's subjects whose occupations during
the day prevent them from visiting these institutions may have the advantage and
enjoyment of studying the national collections,"-(The Earl of Harrowby) .. 608
After debate, Previous Question moved (The Lord President of the Council,
Earl Spencer:)-After further short debate, on Question ? Previous
Question affirmed.
Original Motion agreed to.
EGYPTIAN WAR MEDALS-Question, Observations, Viscount Sidmouth;
Reply, The Under Secretary of State for War (Lord Sandhurst) .. 622
MERCHANT SHIPPING-LlHT AT PORTLAND BREAKWATER-Question, Ob-
servations, Lord Colville of Culross; Reply, The First Lord of the
Admiralty (The Marquess of Ripon) .. .. 623
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (Fermoy) Bill [n.Li--Presented
(The Lord President) ; read 1, and referred to the Examiners (No. 32) .. 624
VOL. COCIII. [i I.] [7.0.J
VOL. CCOIII. [THIKD SEaIES.] [ d ]







TABLE OF CONTENTS.


COMMONS, FRIDAY, MARCH 12. Page

QUESTIONS.
-0-

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (ENGLAND AND WALES)-SCIOOL BOARD ELEC-
TIONS-Question, Mr. T. Fry; Answer, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Lyon Playfair).. .... .. 624
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-POLICEMEN AS TENANTS OF AN EVICTED FARM
-CASE OF SERGEANT O'DONNELL-Question, Mr. Deasy; Answer, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 625
AFFAIRS OF BUInAH-Question, Dr. Cameron; Answer, The Under Secre-
tary of State for India (Sir Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) .. 625
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND) HOWTH HARBOUR Question, Mr.
Clancy; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .... .... 626
ARTIZANS' DWELLINGS (METROPOLIs)-Question, Mr. Ince; Answer, The
Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. C. T. D. Acland).. .. 627
PRISoNS (SCOTLAND)-BARLININE PRISON-Question, Mr. Baird; Answer,
The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) .. .. 628
ARMY (INDIA)-THE MEDICAL SERVICE-Question, Sir Guyer Hunter; An-
swer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred Kay-
Shuttleworth) ........ 629
RETIRED MILITARY AND NAVAL OFFICERS-COLONIAL EMPLOYMENT-Ques-
tion, Sir Guyer Hunter; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the
Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) ...... 630
ARMY (INDIA) THE VETERINARY ESTABLISHMENT Question, Colonel
Duncan; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred
Kay-Shuttleworth) .... .. 630
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-BALTINGLASS UNION-APPOINTMENT OF SUPERIN-
TENDENT REGISTRAR-Question, Mr. Byrne; Answer, The Chief Secre-
tary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... .. 631
TRADE AND COMMERCE-THE TRADE IN FISiH-Questions, Sir Henry Tyler,
Mr. O'Kelly; Answers, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .. .. ...... 631
POOR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)-OUTBREAK OF FEVER IN ST. GEORGE'S
SCHOOLS, AsHFoRD-Question, Mr. W. J. Corbet; Answer, The Presi-
dent of the Local Government Board (Mr. J. Chamberlain) .. 632
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-INCAPACITY OF HOLDERS OF SPIRIT LI-
CENCES TO SERVE AS JURORS IN CRIMINAL TRIALS-Question, Mr.
Justin M'Carthy; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) ...... 633
LoNDON HOSPITALS-THE HOMERTON HOSPITAL-Questions, Mr. Gibb, Mr.
James Stuart; Answers, The President of the Local Government Board
(Mr. J. Chamberlain) .... .... 634
POOR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)--SALARIES OF POOR LAW OFFICIALS-
Question, Mr. Cornwallis West; Answer, The President of the Local
Government Board (Mr. J. Chamberlain).. .. .. 635
LONDON HOSPITALS-THE HIGHGATE HIOSPITAL-Question, Mr. Gibb; An-
swer, The President of the Local Government Board (Mr. J.
Chamberlain).. ..... 635
THE EGYPTIAN EXPEDITION-SERVICE IN THE NILE EXPEDITION-Question,
Sir John Commerell; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr.
Hibbert) ........ .. 636
JAMAICA-CONVICT OFFICERS-Question, Sir Robert Fowler; Answer, The
Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) .. 636
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA-THE JOINT COMMITTEE-PLACE OF INQUIRY-Ques-
tions, Sir Roper Lethbridge, Dr. Clark, Mr. Macfarlane; Answers, The
Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) .. 637






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 12.1 Page
INDIA (BENGAL)-THEF PATWARI BILL-Question, Sir Roper Lethbridge;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred Kay-
Shuttleworth) ...... ... 638
NAVY ARMAMENT GUNS AND AMmNUNITION-Question, Lord George
Hamilton; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-
Bannerman) .. ........ 639
POST OFFICE-PARCEL POST TO FRANCE AND ITALY-Question, Mr. Henniker
Heaton; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .......... 639
FRANCE AND MADAGASCAR-Question, Mr. Johnston; Answer, The Under
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 640
SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL-Question, Sir Joseph
Pease; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Childers) ..... .. 640
NAVY--COASTGUARD STATION AT ENNISCRONE- Question, Mr. Peter
M'Donald; Answer, The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W.
Duff) .. .. .... .. 640
DEPRESSION OF TRADE-OVERTIME IN GOVERNMENT FACTORIES- Questions,
Mr. Howell, Viscount Curzon; Answers, The Secretary of State for
War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman), The Secretary to the Admiralty
(Mr. Hibbert) .... .. .. 641
POST OFFICE -IRISH MAIL SERVICE-Question, Mr. Peter M'Donald; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 641
PROCEDURE-DIVISIONs-Question, Mr. Channing; Answer, The Chancellor
of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .... 642
ULSTER CANAL AND TYRONE NAVIGATION BILL-Question, Mr. Johnston;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 642


ORDERS OF THE DAY.

-o-
SUPPLY-Order for Committee read ; Motion made, and Question proposed,
That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair : "-
HAnBOURn OF REFUGE-RESOLUTION-Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "in view of the existing depression of trade, and the large number of
persons out of employment, this House is of opinion that the present is a favourable
time for the Government to carry out certain valuable and necessary public works,
more especially the formation of Harbours of Refuge, at various points upon the
Coast,"--(r. Dawson,)-instead thereof .. .. 643
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After long debate, Amendment, by leave, with-
drawn.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-NOTICES OF QUESTIONS-RESOLUTION-
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words Notices of Questions be given by Members in writing to the Clerk at the
Table, without reading them viva voce in the House, unless the consent of the
Speaker to any particular Question has been previously obtained,"-(Sir Henry
Selwin-Ibbetson,)-instead thereof .... .. 697
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question: "-After debate, Moved, "That the Debate be now
adjourned,"--(Mr. T. P. O'Connor:)-After further short debate,
Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 51, Noes 235 ; Majority 181.
-(Div. List, No. 29.)
Words added:-Original Question put, and negative.







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[March 12.] Page
SUPPLY-Order for Committee read--continued.
Resolved, That Notices of Questions be given by Members in writing to the Clerk
at the Table, without reading them viva voce in the House, unless the consent
of the Speaker to any particular Question has been previously obtained.
Resolved, That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Com-
mittee of Supply,-(Mr. Henry H. Fowler.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That Mr. Speaker do now leave
the Chair: "-
ARREARS OF RENT (IRELAND) ACT, 1882-MR. HENRY M'DOUGALL, AGENT
OF THE GOR3ANSTOWN ESTATE, CO. MEATII--RESOLUTION-
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That," to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words in the opinion of this House, it is the duty of the Government to institute
a prosecution of Mr. Henry M'Dougall, agent of the Gormanstown estate in the
county of Meath, Ireland, who recovered money under the Arrears Act in a case in
which no arrears were due, either under the section of the Arrears Act which is
concerned with such cases, or for perjury,"-(Mr. Clancy) .. 713
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After debate, Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
SuPPLY-Committee deferred till Monday next.
Labourers (Ireland) Acts Amendment Bill [Bill 10J-
Bill considered in Committee .... .. 729
After some time spent therein, Committee report Progress ; to sit again
upon Monday next.
MOTIONS.
-e --
Infants Bill-
Motion for Leave (Mr. Attorney General) ..... 739
Motion agreed to :-Bill ordered (YVr. Attorney General, The Lord Advocate,
Mr. Secretary Childers, Mr. Bryce); presented, and read the first time
[Bill 139.]
PARLIAMENTARY PROOEDURE-NOMINATION OF SELECT COMMITTEE-
Moved, That the Select Committee on Parliamentary Procedure do con-
sist of Thirty-three Members" .. .. 739
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :-List of the Committee 741
SUPPLY-REPORT-Resolutions [llth March] reported .. 741
First Two Resolutions agreed to.
Third Resolution postponed.
Subsequent Resolution agreed to.
Postponed Resolution to be considered upon Thursday next.
High Court of Justice (Provincial Sittings) Bill-Ordered (,ar. Whitley, Mr.
Forwood, Mr. Houldsworth, Mr. Hutton, Lord Claud J. Hamilton, Mr. Mather, Tr.
Armitage, Mr. Agnew, Mr. Powell Williams, Mr. E. B. Russell) .. .. 741
[1.45.1

LORDS, MONDAY, MARCH 15.
DISTURBANCES IN THE METROPOLIS-RESOLUTION-
Moved to resolve-
', That in the opinion of this House responsibility for the unfortunate occurrences of
8th February devolves on Her Majesty's Government collectively and not on any
single branch of the executive,"-(The Lord Stratheden and Campbell) .. 741
After debate, Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[fMarch 15.1 Page
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-MURDER OF PATRICK FINLAY, WOODFORD,
Co. GALWAY-Observations, The Duke of St. Albans:-Debate thereon 761
[8.30.]

COMMONS, MONDAY, MARCH 15.

Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (IRELAND)-DISTURBANCE AT THE SOUTH FER-
MANAGH ELECTION--ASSAULT ON JOHN M'MANUS-Question, Mr. H.
Campbell; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) ...... 789
SCOTLAND-PORTREE PIER, ISLE OF SKYE-DEATHI OF REV. DR. MACKAY
-Question, Mr. Fraser-Mackintosh; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr.
J. B. Balfour) .... .... 789
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-PUPIL TEACHERS' SCHOLARSHIP EXAMINATIONS-
PUBLICATION OF RESULTS-Question, Mr. M. J. Kenny; Answer, The
Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .... 790
SUPPLY-CLASS I., VOTE 3, ROYAL PARKS AND PLEASURE GROUNDS-Ques-
tions, Mr. Brodrick, Mr. W. H. Smith, Mr. Labouchere; Answers, The
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt), The Secretary to
the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. .. 791
EGYPT-THE PAPERS-Question, Mr. Dillon; Answer, The Under Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. .. 793
EGYPT-THE SOUDAN- SUAKIN- Questions, Mr. Dillon, Sir George
Campbell; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) .... ... 793
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-MALICIOUS BURNING OF HAY AT NEW-
CASTLE WEST, Co. LIMERIOK-COMPENSATION-QueStions, Mr. W.
Abraham (Limerick, W.); Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .. .. .. 793
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) ACT-RETURN OF FORMS TO THE CLERK
OF THE UNION THROUGH THE POST OFFICE-Question, Mr. Arthur
O'Connor; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 794
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-WOODFORD, Co. GALWAY--Questions,
Captain M'Calmont, Mr. Sexton; Answers, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 795
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) Co. LIMERICK- Question, Captain
M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. .. 796
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-THE POSTMASTER AT OMAGH-Question, Mr. M. J.
Kenny; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 797
COMMISSIONERS OF EDUCATION (IRELAND)-EXAMINATION PAPERS OF NA-
TIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS-Question, Mr. P. J. O'Brien; Answer, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 797
INLAND REVENUE-STAMPS-AFFIXING OF NEWSPAPER STAMPS-Question,
Mr. Dwyer Gray; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry
H. Fowler) .... .. 798
INLAND REVENUE-CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT (IRELAND)-CONFISCATED SNUFF
AND ToBAcco-Question, Mr. Dwyer Gray; Answer, The Secretary to
the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) ..... 798
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-PIER AT INNISHMURRY ISLAND
-Question, Mr. P. M'Donald; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Mr. John Morley) .. ... 799
BORNEO-FURTHER ACQUISITION OF TERRITORY BY THE NORTH BORNEO
COMPANY-Question, Sir John Gorst; Answer, The Under Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) ...... 800






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 15.] Page
REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND)-APPURTENANCES OF
LAND-Question, Mr. Biggar; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .. .... .. 801
POST OFFICE-SAVINGS BANK DEPOSITS-Question, Mr. Beadel; Answer,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 801
INLAND REVENUE-COLLECTION OF INCOME TAX-Questions, Mr. Dwyer
Gray; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) 802
NAVY-H.M.S. DIAMOND "-Questions, Dr. Cameron, Mr. J. A. Blake;
Answers, The Under Secretary of State. for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne
Morgan), The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duff) .. 802
COMPENSATION FOR DAMAGES BILL-RESIDENTS IN NORTH LAMBETH-
Question, General Fraser; Answer, The Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Mr. Childers) ... .. 804
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-MR. VESEY FITZGERALD, R.M.--Questions,
Mr. Lalor, Mr. O'Kelly; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley)...... .. 804
SCOTLAND-EVICTION OF CROFTERS-RETURN OF CASES-Question, Mr. Mark
Stewart; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) .. 805
IRISH LAND COMMISSION-SUB-COMMISSIONERS-SITTING IN TYRONE-QueS-
tions, Mr. W. O'Brien; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley)... ...... 806
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-DUBLIN AND BELFAST POST OFFICES-ANNUAL
LEAVE OF TELEGRAPH CLERKS-Question, Mr. W. O'Brien; Answer,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 807
COMMISSIONERS OF NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)-APPOINTMENT OF MR.
NEWEL-Question, Mr. Harris; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Mr. John Morley) ..808
ARMY-REGIMENTAL STATISTICS-Question, General Fraser; Answer, The
Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman).. .. 809
POOR LAW (IRELAND)-RATING QUALIFICATION FOR A GUARDIAN-Question,
Mr. W. Abraham (Limerick, W.); Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. ... 809
ARMY-WAR DEPARTMENT-GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS ABROAD--Question,
Sir Henry Tyler; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Camp-
bell-Bannerman) ... 809
HARBOURs-DOVER HARBOUR-Question, Sir William Crossman; Answer,
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 810
THE AUSTRALASIAN COLONIES-SEPARATION OF NORTH QUEENSLAND FROM
QUEENSLAND-Question, Mr. M'Arthur; Answer, The Under Secretary
of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) .. 810
PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1881-RENEWAL-Question, Mr.
Lewis; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 811
RAILWAY AND CANAL COMPANIES-STATISTICAL RETURNS-Question, Mr.
Hanbury; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .. .. 811
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-SCIOOL GRANTS-Question, Mr. Arthur O'Connor;
Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) 812
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-POSTAL FACILITIES IN DONEGAL-Question, Mr.
Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry
H. Fowler) ...... 813
DEFENCES OF THE EMPIRE-COALING STATIONS-Question, Mr. Baden-
Powell; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Ban-
nerman) ...... 813
GREENWICH HOSPITAL-AUDIT OF ACCOUNTS OF CAPITAL AND INCOME-
Question, Captain Price; Answer, The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr.
R. W. Duff) ... 813
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND)-GAELIC IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS-Question, Mr.
Macfarlane; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) .. 814






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[LMarch 15.] Page
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES) NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICERS OF MILITIA
STAFFS-Question, Colonel Waring; Answer, The Financial Secretary,
War Department (Mr. Herbert Gladstone) .... 814
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA-THE JOINT COMMITTEE-Question, Mr. King;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred Kay-
Shuttleworth) .... .. .. 815
REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND)- THE WATERFORD IN-
DUSTRIAL SCHOOL Question, Mr. R. Power; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley); Question, Mr. John Red-
mond [no reply] .... .... 815
MERCHANT SHIPPING-CRIMPING IN AMERICAN PORTS-Question, Captain
Verney; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) 816
'ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-ALLEGED ASSAULT ON MR. PATRICK CORKERY
-Question, Dr. Tanner; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .... .. 817
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-EMPLOYMENT AS CARETAKERS AT INNISCARRA,
Co. CORK-Questions, Dr. Tanner; Answers, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .817
PAROCHIAL GOVERNMENT--IGHT TO VOTE AT VESTRIES Question, Mr.
Cobb; Answer, The President of the Local Government Board (Mr.
J. Chamberlain) ........ 818
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION IN BOARD SCHooLS-Ques-
tion, Admiral Field; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir
Lyon Playfair) .... .. 818
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-CATHOLIC MAGISTRATES, Co. DONEGAL-Ques-
tion, Mr. Kelly; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) ........ .. 819
THE SPENDING DEPARTMENTS OF THE STATE Question, Mr. Rylands;
Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 820
EDUCATION (IRELAND) -NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS- GOOD SERVICE
SALARY-Question, Mr. P. J. O'Brien; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 820
PRIVILEGE-DUPLICATE SIGNATURES TO PETITIONS-Question, Mr. Clancy;
Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone); Ob-
servations, Sir Charles Forster .... 821
TRADE AND COMMERCE-EXTERNAL TRADE OF THE COUNTRY-Question, Mr.
Kimber; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E.
Gladstone) ...... .. 822
FISHERIES (IRELAND)-TRAWLING ON THE IRISH COAST-Question, Mr. P.
M'Donald; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. ...... .. 822
IRELAND-GRAND JURIES-RESOLUTIONS ON HOME RULE-Questions, Mr.
De Cobain, Mr. Dillon; Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr.
W. E. Gladstone) .... .. .. 823
NAVY-THE ROYAL DOCKYARDS-DISCHARGE OF MEN AT DEVONPORT DOCK-
YARD-Questions, Captain Price, Mr. Puleston; Answers, The Civil
Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duff) .... 824
SUPPLY-THE ARMY ESTIMATEs-Questions, Mr. W. H. Smith; Answers,
The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman), The First
Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) 824
PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURE THE SELECT COMMITTEE-ALTERATION OF
THE RULES OF DEBATE-Question, Mr. Allison; Answer, The First
Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 825
CROFTERS (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL-Questions, Mr. Macfarlane; Answers,
The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) .. .. 826
PARLIAMENT--PUBLIC BUSINESS-STANDING ORDER No. 485A-THE NAVY
ESTIMATEs-Question, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answer, Mr. Speaker .. 826







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

[Lfarch 15.] Page
MOTION.
-0o-
PARLTAMENT-THE NEW RULES OF PROCEDURE (RULE 2, ADJOURNMENT OF
THE HOUSE)-PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDUTRE-THE SELECT COMMITTEE
-CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMITTEE-
Moved, "That this House do now adjourn,"-( Captain Verney) .. 827
Whereupon a number of Members-less than 40 rising in their places,
the hon. Member could not proceed with his Motion.

ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-0-
SUPPLY-Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair : "-
NAvY (EFFICIENCY)-RESOLUTIuN-Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words now would be a suitable opportunity for the Sinking Fund to be suspended,
or Terminable Annuities created, in order to put the Royal Navy in that state of
efficiency which is necessary for the safety of the Empire, at the least possible
expense to the Country, owing to the cheapness of material at the present time,"
-(Lord Charles Beresford,)-instead thereof ...... 827
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After long debate, Question put: The House
divided; Ayes 206, Noes 98; Majority 108.-(Div. List, No. 31.)
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and
agreed to.
SUPPLY-considered in Committee-NAVY ESTIMATES-
(In the Committee.)
(1.) 61,400 Men and Boys.-After short debate, Vote agreed to .. .. 905
Resolution to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again upon-
Wednesday.
Marriages Validity Bill [Lords] [Bill 137]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(The Lord Advocate) 906
Motion agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday.
Lunacy (Vacating of Seats) Bill [Bill 85]-
Bill considered in Committee .. .. .. .. 906
After short time spent therein, Committee report Progress; to sit again
To-morrow.
Coal Mines Bill [Bifl 92]-
Bill considered in Committee .... .... 908
Moved, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit
again,"-(Sir Joseph Pease :)-After short debate, Question put:-The
Committee divided; Ayes 128, Noes 69; Majority 59.- (Div. List,
No. 32.)
Moved, That the Committee have leave to sit again To-morrow,"-(Sir
R. Assheton Cross) ...... .. 914
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "To-morrow," in order to in-
sert the words upon Wednesday, the 31st day of this instant March,"
-(Mr. Sexton,)-instead thereof.
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After short debate, Amendment, by leave, withdrawn,
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Committee to sit again To-morrow.






STABLE OF CONTENTS.
[.March 15.] Page
Labourers (Ireland) Acts Amendment Bill [Bill 10]-
Bill considered in Committee [Progress 12th March .... 915
After short time spent therein, Committee report Progress; to sit again
upon Thursday.
Ulster Canal and Tyrone Navigation Bill-
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [1st March],
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the transfer of the Ulster Canal
and the Tyrone Navigation or Coal Island Canal from the Commissioners of Public
Works in Ireland to the Lagan Navigation Company; and for other purposes,"-
(Mr. Henry I. Fowler.)
Question again proposed :-Debate resumed. .. .. 922
Question put, and agreed to :-Bill ordered (3r. John Morley, Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ; presented, and read the first time [Bill 141.]

Liquor Traffic (Local Veto) Ulster Bill-Considered in Committee :-Resolution
agreed to, and reported:-Bill ordered (Mr. Johnston, Lord Arthur Hill, Mr. De
Cobain); presented, and read the first time [Bill 142] .. .. 922
[2.15.]
LORDS, TUESDAY, MARCH 16.
Parish Churches Bill No. 5)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a,"-(The Lord Bishop of Peterborough) 923
Amendment moved, to leave out (" now") and add at the end of the
Motion ("this day six months,")-(The Lord Grimthorpe:)-After
debate, on Question, That (" now ") stand part of the Motion ? Resolved
in the affirmative.
Bill read 2" accordingly, and referred to a Select Committee.
Women's Suffrage Bill (No. 10)-
lMoved, That the Bill be now read 2","-(The Lord Denman) .. 947
On Question ? Resolved in the negative. [7.0. I


COMMONS, TUESDAY, MARCH 16.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
-o-
London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Bill (by Order)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Charles Forster) 948
Question put, and agreed to:-Bill read a second time, and committed.
Moved, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the London, Brighton, and
South Coast Railway Bill, to insert a Clause providing that the Company shall, at the
expiration of their present agreements with the contractors for, or tenants of, the
bookstalls upon the premises of the Company, put such bookstalls up to public com-
petition among the newsvendors and others being bona fide residents in the borough,
or, if outside a borough, in the county in which such stalls are situate, and that the
Company shall be bound to enter into no agreement for the letting of any bookstall
for any period longer than three years,"-(Mr. Arthur O'Connor.)
After debate, Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Mr.
Sexton :)-Question put, and negatived.
Original Question put, and negatived.

QUESTIONS,
-o-
MEDICAL ACT, 1858-Question, Dr. Foster; Answer, The Vice President of
the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .. .... 967
VOL. OOCCIII. [THIRD SERIES.] [ e ]






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

L arch 16.]
THE INCOME TAX (EXEMPTIONs)-Question, Mr. Round; Answer, The
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt)
LAW AND JUSTICE (SCOTLAND)-THIE REV. MATTHEW AnMOUR Question,
Dr. Cameron; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour)
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (SCOTLAND)-TIE HIGHLANDS AND ISLANDS-
Question, Dr. R. M'Donald; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr.
Trevelyan) .....
PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND)-SMALL-POX AT WOODSIDE-Question, Mr.
Hunter; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan)
HARBOURS (SCOTLAND)-THE HARBOUR AT GIRVAN-Question, Mr. Mac-
farlane; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella)
LAW AND JUSTICE (ENGLAND AND WALES)-IMPRISONMENT OF ROBERT
HOWE ASHTON-Question, Mr. Houldsworth; Answer, The Attorney
General (Sir Charles Russell) .
THE DIPLOMATIC SERVICE-BRITISH LEGATION AT CHINA-Question, Mr.
Octavius Morgan; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs (Mr. Bryce)
LAW AND JUSTICE (SCOTLAND)-THE SHERIFF CLERK OF CROMARTY-QUOs-
tiQn, Dr. R. M'Donald; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B.
Balfour)
LAW AND JUSTICE (SCOTLAND)-THE PROCURATOR FISCAL FOR ROSS AND
CROMARTY-Question, Dr. R. M'Donald; Answer, The Lord Advocate
(Mr. J. B. Balfour)
-CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-TnE STATE OF KEERY-Questions, Cap-
tain M'Calmont, Mr. Mitchell Henry; Answers, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY--THE BALLINASLOE POLICE AND FREE GAS-
Question, Mr. Harris; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley)
SOUTH AFRICA -THE TRANSVAAL CONVENTION Question, Mr. Kimber;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne
Morgan) ....
CENTRAL ASIA THE ZHOB VALLEY EXPEDITION Question, Colonel
Hughes-Hallett; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir
Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth)
THE NATIONAL GALLERY-CONSTABLE'S "HAY WAIN "-Question, Mr.
Ruston; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .....
ENFIELD SMALL ARMS FACTORY-" STANDING OUT" EMPLOYES-Question,
Viscount Folkestone; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman)
PosT OFFICE RURAL POSTAL DELIVERIES Question, Sir Edward
Birkbeck; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ..
NAVY-DEVONPORT DOCKYARD-THE EMPLOYES-Questions. Mr. Puleston;
Answers, The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duff)
INLAND REVENUE-ASSESSMENT OF THE INCOME TAX-Question, Mr. Agg-
Gardner; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William
Harcourt) ..
L/RIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-STATE OF KERRY-Questions, Mr. De
Cobain, Mr. Sexton; Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W.
E. Gladstone)...
IRELAND-" THE HOUSE LEAGUE'"-Question, Mr. De Cobain; Answer,
The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone)..
COAL MINES BILL-Question, Sir R. Assheton Cross; Answer, The Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers)...







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
Mlrarch 16.J Page
M OPTIONS.
--o-0
CoNTA Itrs DISEASES ACTS, 1866-1869-RESOLUTION-
Moved, That, in the opinion of this House, the Contagious Diseases Acts, 1866-1869,
ought to be repealed,"-(Mr. Stansfeld) .. ... 98
Amendment proposed,
At the end of the Question, to add the words due provision at the same time being
made for the continued maintenance of hospital accommodation with adequate
treatment of women voluntarily seeking admission and medical care,"-(Sir John
IKennaway.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there added : "-After debate,
Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 131, Noes 245; Majority
114.-(Div. List, No. 35.)
Main Question put, and agreed to.
GROUND RENTS-RESOLUTION-
Moved, That no system of taxation can be equitable unless a direct assessment be im-
posed on the owners of Ground Rents, and on the owners of increased values imparted to
land by building operations, or other improvements, as recommended by the Royal
Commission on the Housing of the Working Classes,"--(Mr. Saunders) .. 999
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That" to the first word "on," in line 2, in order to
insert the words "the question of imposing a direct assessment,"-(Mr. Lawson,)
-instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question: "-After debate, Question put, and negatived.
Question proposed,
That the words, That the question of imposing a direct assessment on the owners
of Ground Rents, and on the owners of increased values imparted to land by building
operations, or other improvements, as recommended by the Royal Commission on the
Housing of the Working Classes,' be there inserted .. .. 1048
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word "improvements," to the end of the Question, in order to
add the words "be referred to the Select Committee on Town Holdings,"-(Mr.
Lawson,) -instead thereof.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the
Question," put, and negatived:-Words added.
Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-0-
Rivers Purification Bill [Bill 101]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Sir Edward
Birkbek) ... ..... ..1049
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words upon this day six months,"-(Sir
henry ooscoe).
Question proposed, "That the word now stand part of the Question: "
-After short debate, Question put, and negatived :-Words added,
Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to :-Second Reading put of
for six months.
Employers' Liability Act (1880) Amendment Bill -
Select Committee nominated:- List of the Committee .. .... 1056
WAYS AND MEANS-
Considered in Committee .. .. .. ** 1057
(In the Committee.)
Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the
service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1886, the sum of 544,772 be
granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.
Resolution agreed to; to be reported To-morrow. [1.0.]







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 17. Page

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-0-

Church of Scotland Bill [Bill 6]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(3fr. Finlay) .. 1057
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word now and at the end of
the Question to add the words upon this day six months,"-(Dr.
Cameron.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'now stand part of the Question: "
-After long debate, Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 179,
Noes 202; Majority 23.
Division List, Ayes and Noes .. .... 1129
Words added :-Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to:-Second
Reading put offfor six months.
Metropolitan Board of Works (Theatres, &c.) Bill FBill 441-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(MrE. R. Cook) .. 1132
It being a quarter of an hour before Six of the clock, further Proceedings
stood adjourned till To-morrow.
SCINDE, PUNJAUB, AND DELII RAILWAY COMPANY BILL [ANNUITIES--
Considered in Committee .... .. 1135
Resolution agreed to; to be reported upon Monday next.

MOTIONS.
-0-
WAYS AND MEANS-
Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill- Resolution [16th March] reported, and agreed to:
-Bill ordered (Mr). Courtney, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Henry H. Fowler) ;
presented, and read the first time .... .... 1136
Merchant Shipping Act (1854) Amendment Bill-Ordered (Mr. Penrose Fitzgerald,
Colonel Dawnay, iMr. Morgan Howard); presented, and read the first time [Bill 146] 1136
Land Transfer (Scotland) Bill-Ordered (Mr. Boyd-Kinnear, l'f. Bruce, Mr. Mason,
Mr. M'Laren); presented, and read the first time [Bill 144] .... 1136
Compulsory Purchase of Land Compensation Bill-Ordered (Ar. M'Laren, Mr.
Houldsworth, Mr. Joseph Bolton, Mr. Jesse Collings) ; presented, and read the first
time [Bill 145] ...... .. 1136
[5.55.]

LORDS, THURSDAY, MARCH 18.

Lunacy Acts Amendment Bill (No. 12)-
Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee,"-(The
Lord Chancellor) .. .. 1136
After debate, Motion agreed to:-House in Committee accordingly.
Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received To-morrow ; and
Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 37.)
[7.45.]

COMMONS, THURSDAY, MARCH 18.
Q QUESTIONS.
--o
SCoTLAND-ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN KIRKWALL-Question, Mr.
Macdonald Cameron; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) 1153







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 18.] Page
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY HIRING OF CARS Question, Mr. Biggar ;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1154
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-TnE CAVAN GRAND JURY-Question, Mr.
Biggar; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1154
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-USE OF SCHOOL ROOMS FOR POLITICAL MEETINGS
-Question, Mr. Herbert Gardner; Answer, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .... .. 1155
WESTMINSTER HALL (RESTORATION)-Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; An-
swer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) 1155
COMMISSIONERS OF IRISH LIGHTS-FACILITIES FOR LIGIITKEEPERS ATTENDING
DIVINE SERVICE -Question, Mr. Johnston; Answer, The President of
the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .... 1156
ARMS LICENCES (IRELAND)-CASE OF PATRICK M'GINN-Question, Mr.
Macartney; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. . 1156
RAILWAYS (IRELAND)-THE BELTURBET RAILWAY-BRIDGE OVER THE BAL-
LINAMORE CANAL-Question, Mr. H. Campbell ; Answer, The Secre-
tary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 1157.
COAL MINES REGULATION ACT-WEIGHTS AND SCALES-Question, Mr.
Forwood; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) ....... 1158-
PAVING CONTRECTs-DUBLIN CORPORATION-Questions, Mr. Jones-Parry,
Mr. Peter M'Donald; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) .... 1158
PRISONS (IREL'AND)-CONSOLIDATION Question, Sir R. Assheton Cross;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1160
CRIMINAL LAW-PROSECUTION FOR LIBEL (CAPE CoLoNY)-Question, Mr.
Mason; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr.
Osborne Morgan) ....... 1161
LITERATURE, SCIENCE, AND ART (SCOTLAND)--SIR DAVID BAXTER'S BE-
QUEST TO DUNDEE-Question, Mr. Edmund Robertson; Answer, The
Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) .. 1162
TENURE REMOVAL (SCOTLAND) BILL-Question, Mr. J. W. Barclay; An-
swer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. B. Balfour) .. 1162
FISHERIES (SCOTLAND)-REGISTRATION OF FISHING BOATS-Question, Mr. J.
W. Barclay; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) .. 1163
IRELAND--THE BELFAST CORPORATION-SALARY OF THE TOWN CLEnK-
Question, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 1163
MERCHANT SHIPPING-THE SMACK COLUMBINE "-RESCUE OF MRS. MOUATT
-Question, Mr. Lyell; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) ...... 1164
BANKRUPTCY ACT, 1883-DUTIES OF OFFICIALS-Question, Mr. Arthur
O'Connor; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) ... .. .. .. 1165
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND) CASE OF MR. BUCHANAN, TEACHER OF
TIE NATIONAL SCHOOL AT CARNONE, CO. DONEGAL Questions, Mr.
Arthur O'Connor; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. ...... .. 1166
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-ALLEGED ATTACK UPON REV. W. P.
KEARNEY, DROGHEDA-Question, Mr. De Cobain; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1166
EVICTIONS (IRELAND)-WOODFORD, Co. GALWAY Question, Mr. Harris;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1167
EGYPT-ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE-REPORT OF JUDGE WEST-Question,
Mr. Dillon; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) .... .. .. .. 1168







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[farch 18.] Page
INLAND REVENUE-LICENCE DUTY ON PUBLIC-HOUSES Question, Mr.
M'Laren; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir William
Harcourt) .. ........ 1168
STATE OF IRELAND-LAWLESSNESS IN THE WEST OF IRELAND-Question,
Mr. Macartney; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .... ...... 1169
RAILWAYS AND PUBLIC WORKS, INDIA-Questions, Mr. Fell Pease, Mr.
Jackson; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir
Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) .... 1169
IRISH LAND COMMISSION (SuB-COMMISSIONERs)-SITTINGS AT AUGINACLOY
Questions, Mr. W. O'Brien; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Mr. John Morley) .. .. .. 1171
COAL STATISTICS, 1885-Question, Mr. M'Laren; Answer, The Secretary of
State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .... 1171
METROPOLIS-THE LONDON PARKS-GROUND RENTS AND REVENUES-Ques-
tion, Mr. Hanbury; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) ...... .. 1172
TRAMWAYS AND PUBLIC COMPANIES (IRELAND) ACT, 1883-OPERATION OF
THE ACT-Question, Mr. Mark Stewart; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 1173
ARMY (IRELAND)-CASUALTY TO A SOLDIER IN BELFAST-Question, Mr.
Sexton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley).. 1173
IRISH FISHERY COMMISSIONERS-CONTRACTS FOR PIERS, &c.-Question,
Mr. Mulholland; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry
H. Fowler) .. .... 1174
NAVY (ORDNANCE)-RETURN OF GUNS UNDER CONSTRUCTION FOR NEW
SHIPS OF WAR-Question, Mr. Ruston; Answer, The Civil Lord of the
Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duf) ..... 1174
TRADE AND COMMERCE-HALL MARKING OF FOREIGN MANUFACTURED GOLD
AND SILVER WATCH CASES-Question, Mr. Forwood; Answer, The
President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .... 1175
INLAND NAVIGATION AND DRAINAGE (IRELAND)-THE BARROW DRAINAGE
AND ARDGLASS HARBOUn-Question, Mr. W. J. Corbet; Answer, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1175
PtISONS (IRELAND)-PRISON WARDERS-Question, Mr. John O'Connor
(Tipperary, S.); Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) ..... .. 1176
NAVY-ARMAMENT-THE HOTCHKISS GUN-Question, Mr. Jackson; Answer,
The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. 1176
BANKRUPTCY (IRELAND) COURTS-LOCAL COURT AT BELFAST-Question,
Mr. James Haslett; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley).. .... .. 11.77
THE ROYAL LIVER FRIENDLY SOCIETY-THE REPORT- Question, Mr.
Hutton; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ... 1178
VACCINATION ACT-REPEAL OF THE COMPULSORY CLAUSES-Question, Mr.
Thomas Robinson; Answer, The President of the Local Government
Board (Mr. 'J. Chamberlain) .. .. 1178
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-SERGEANTS MAJOR OF VOLUNTEERS-Question,
Mr. Alexander'Hall; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman) .. 1179
DEFENCES OF THE EMPIRE-COALING STATIONS-Question, Mr. W. H.
Smith; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Ban-
nerman) .... .. 1179
POOn LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)-DESTITUTE RUSSIANS AT HULL-Ques-
tion, Mr. C. H. WVilson; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) ,. 1180






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

L arch 18.1 Page
ROYAL InISr CONSTABULARY-COMPENSATION TO DISTRICT INSPECTOR CON-
NAUGIITON-Question, Mr. James Flynn; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 1180
THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)-THE CLOGHER JUSTICES-Question, Mr. W.
O'Brien; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1181
THE GENERAL DISTRESS-PROPOSED DAY OF NATIONAL HUMILIATION-
Question. Mr. Johnston; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr.
W. E. Gladstone) ....... 1182
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA-THE JOINT COMMITTEE-Questions, Sir Michael
Hicks-Beach, Mr. Macfarlane; Answers, The First Lord of the
Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 1182
EGYPT-TIE SOUDAN-Question, Mr. Dillon; Answer, The Under Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .... 1183
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-THE SANITARY CONDITION OF THIS HOUSE-
Question, Dr. Farquharson; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler) ........ 1183
CROFTERS (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL-Question, Sir George Campbell; An-
swer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) .. 1184

ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
o-0-
.SUPPLY-considered in Committee-
(In the Committee.)
NAVY ESTIMATES-DEPARTMENTAL STATEMENT.
(r.) 2,902,900, Wages, &c. to Seamen and Marines.-After long debate, Vote
agreed to .. ... .. 1184
(2.) 964,400, Victuals and Clothing for Seamen and Marines.-After short debate,
Vote agreed to ...... .... 1285
CIVIL SERVICES.
(3.) 3,403,400, Vote on Account, Civil Services and Revenue Departments.-[Then
the several Services are set forth.]-After debate, Vote agreed to .. .. 1286
(4.) 595 12s. Id., Civil Services Excesses, viz:-[Then the several Services are set
forth] ..... ..... 1307
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
SUPPLY-REPORT-Postponed Resolution [11th March] considered .. 1308
(3.) 62,216, Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens.
Resolved, That the Postponed Resolution reported from the Committee of
Supply on the llth March be re-committed to the said Committee.
Resolved, That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Com-
mittee of Supply.
SUPPLY again considered in Committee.
MJoved, That, in addition to the sum of 62,216 already granted to Her Majesty, to
defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending
on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens, the
sum of 50,403 be granted, making together the sum of 112,619 .. 1308
Moved, That, in addition to the sum of 62,216 already granted to Her Majesty,
&c., the reduced sum of 48,253, be.granted, making together the sum of110,469,"
-(Mr. Labotuehere :)-After short debate, Question put:-The Committee
divided; Ayes 65, Noes 141; Majority 76.-(Div. List, No. 37.)
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported To-morrow ; Committee to sit again To-morrow.
Compensation for Damages Bill [Bill 120]-
Order for Committee read :-Moved, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair,"-(Mr. Childers) ...... 1314
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill considered in Committee .. 1324
After short time spent therein, Committee report Progress; to sit again
upon Monday next.






.TABLE OF CONTENTS.

I [March 18.] Page
Trees (Ireland) Bill [Bill 30]-
Bill, as amended, considered .. .. 1324
Bill re-committed in respect of New Clause; considered in Committee.
After short time spent therein, Bill reported; as amended, considered:
to be read the third time To-morrow.
WAYS AND MEANS-
Considered in Committee .. ., .. .. 1326
(1.) Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the
service of the year ended on the 31st day of March 1885, the sum of 38,715 2s. id.
be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.
(2.) Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the
service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, the sum of 8,256,018 be
granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
Town HOLDINGS-
Select Committee nominated :-List of the Committee .... 1326

Contagious Diseases Acts Repeal (No. 2) Bill Ordered (Mr. Stansfeld, Mr.
James Stuart, Sir Robert Fowler, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Burt, Mr. Henry Wilson); pre-
sented, and read the first time [Bill 147] .. .... 1326
Post Office Sites Bill-Ordered (Mr. Spencer, Mr. Henry H. Fowler); presented, and
read the first time [Bill 148] ...... .. 1326
L2.45.]

LORDS, FRIDAY, MARCH 19.

SUNDAY (OPENING OF MUSEUMS, &C.)-RESOLUTION-
Moved to resolve-
"That whereas for many years past Parliament has voted, without comment or protest,
funds to provide for the Sunday opening of Hampton Court Picture Galleries, Kew
Gardens, the Painted Hall of Greenwich Hospital, and the Dublin National Gallery;
that whereas a majority of the Trustees of both the British Museum and of the Na-
tional Gallery have expressed a desire to open those institutions on Sunday after-
noons; that whereas for many years museums, libraries, and art galleries have been
opened free to the people on Sundays in many large provincial towns, with results of
a highly satisfactory character; and further, seeing that no legislative impediment is
offered to the Sunday opening of the Zoological Gardens in London to the wealthy
classes of society, notwithstanding the much larger proportion of Sunday labour
thereby involved as compared with a Government art collection ; that, for the above
reasons, this House is therefore of opinion that the time has now come when the
principle already conceded should, in the interests of religion and education, be ex-
tended to the national collections of art and literature in the Metropolis,"-(The Lord
Thurlow) .. .. .. .. .. 1326
Amendment moved,
To leave out all the words after ("That,") and insert (" it is not desirable to open the
national collections of art and literature in the Metropolis on Sunday,"-(The
Viscount Midlelon.)
After debate, on Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand
part of the Motion ? their Lordships divided ; Contents 78, Not-
Contents 62 ; Majority 16 :-Resolved in the affirmative.
Division List, Contents and Not-Contents .. .. 1348
Original Motion agreed to.
Lunacy Acts Amendment Bill (No. 37)-
Amendments reported (according to order); and Bill re-committed to a
Committee of the Whole House on Monday the 29th instant .. 1349
Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment (No. 2) Bill [n.L.] Presented (The
Viscount Bury); read 1 (No. 40) .. ,. 1350
L7.o.]






TABLE OF CONTENTS.


COMMONS, FRIDAY, MARCH 19. Page

Q QUESTIONS.
-0o-
LIABILITIES OF HARBOUR COMMISIONs-Question, Mr. Seale-Hayne; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. C. T. D. Acland) .. 1350
TRINITY COLLEGE (DUBLIN)-TENURE OF HOLDING OF LANDS-Question,
Sir James Corry; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .... .... .. 1351
POST OFFICE-RURAL TELEGRAPHS-POSITION OF THE GUARANTORS-Ques-
tion, Sir John Kennaway; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... .. 1352
PosT OFFICE-COLONIAL POSTAGE-Question, Mr. Dixon-Hartland ; An-
swer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 1352
Post OFFICE-POSTAGE STArMP-Question, Mr. Dixon-Hartland; Answer,
The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 1353
TRAMWAYS AND PUBLIC COMPANIES (IRELAND) ACT-THE WEST CLARE
RAILWAY-Question, Mr. Cox; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler) ..... .1353
CERTIFIED INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS AND VOLUNTARY TRAINING HOMEs-As-
SISTED EMIGRATION OF CHILDREN Question, Mr. Howard Vincent;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Broadhurst) .. .... .. 1354
ROMAN CATHOLIC REFORMATORY SCHOOLS (IRELAND)-CASE OF CHARLES
M'CLINTOCK, OF ARDSTRAW, Co. TYRON E-Question, Mr. Johnston;
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1355
REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND)- POSITION OF NEW
Ross INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL-Question, Mr. John Redmond; Answer,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1356
LUNATIC ASYLUMS (IRELAND)-THE BOARD OF GOVERNORS, LIMERICK DIS-
TRICT LUNATIC AsYLUM-Question, Mr. William Abraham (Limerick
Co., W.) ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1356
COMMISSIONERS OF NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)-SELECTION OF
TEACHERS FOR MODEL SCHOOLs-Question, Mr. Macartney; Answer,
The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 1357
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-THREATENING LETTERS-CASE OF MR.
ROBERT TESKEY, CURRAHEEN, CO. LIMERICK-Question, Captain
M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. ...... 1357
LAW AND JUSTICE (SCOTLAND)-MR. CRAWFORD, SHERIFF CLERK OF BER-
WICKSHIRE-Question, Dr. Cameron; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr.
J. B. Balfour) .... .. 1358
EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY ACT, 1880-THE LONDON AND NORTH-WESTERN
RAILWAY COMPANY-Questions, Mr. Arthur O'Connor, Mr. Sexton;
Answers, The President'of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 1359
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-WICKLOW HARBOUR-LOAN TO THE COM-
MISSIONERS-Question, Mr. W. J. Corbet; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ...... 1360
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-THE SUMMONING OF JURORS-Question, Mr.
Sexton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley).. 1360
IRELAND-DISTRESS IN DUBLIN-Question, Dr. Fox; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1361
FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (SCOTLAND)-GIRVAN HARBOUR-Questions,
Mr. Macfarlane; Answers, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) ........ .. 1361
KITCHEN AND REFRESHMENT ROOMS, HOUSE OF COMMONS-THE CONTRACT-
Question, Mr. B. Kelly; Answer, Sir William Hart Dyke .. 1362
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (SCOTLAND)-THE NEW CODE-Question, Mr. Boyd-
Kinnear; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Trevelyan) .. 1363
VOL. CCCIII. [TIIRD SERIES.] L f 1







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

.f Marh 19.] Page
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-THE VOLUNTEER FORCE-VACANCIES FOR SUB-
ALTERNS-Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, The Secretary of
State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) 1363
ROYAL COMMISSION ON ACCIDENTS IN MINES-THE REPORT--Question, Sir
R. Assheton Cross; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Mr. Broadhurst) .. .. .. 1364
CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE-DISTRIBUTION OF PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS-Ques-
tion, Mr. Baden-Powell; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) .... .. .. 1364
THE IRISH NATIONAL LEAGUE MEETING OF THE KILBRIDE BRANCH-
Questions, Mr. Macartney; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .. .1364
PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE (DUBLIN)-THE COLLECTOR GENERAL OF RATES
-Question, Mr. Sexton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley)...... .. .. 1365
BANKRUPTCY COURT (LoNDON)-APPOINTMENT OF MR. GIFFARD AS REGIS-
TRAR-Questions, Mr. Handel Cossham; Answer, The Under Secretary
of State for the Home Department (Mr. Broadhurst) .1366
POLICE (SCOTLAND)-DISMISSAL OF JAMES MARTIN, POLICE CONSTABLE,
ABERDEEN-Question, Mr. Hunter; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland
(Mr. Trevelyan) .... .. .. 1366
LoCAL TAXATION-THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON TOWN HOLDINGS-TAXATION
OF RAILWAY STOCKS-Question, Mr. Milnes-Gaskell; Answer, The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) ... 1367
HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE-CIRCUIT ARRANGEMENTS-Question, Mr. Morgan
Howard; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment (Mr. Broadhurst) .. .. ... 1368
DEFENCES OF THE EMPIRE-COALING STATIONS-Question, Mr. W. H.
Smith; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Ban-
nerman) ....... .1368
AFRICA (EAST COAST)-GERMAN ANNEXATION OF TERRITORY BELONGING TO
ZANZIBAe-Question, Mr. J. F. Hutton; Answer, The Under Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. .1369
INLAND REVENUE-TAXATION OF DOGS-EXEMPTION OF LIFE-SAVING DOGS
-Question, Mr. Mildmay; Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
(Sir William Harcourt) .. .. .1370
THE BISHOPRIC OF JERUSALEM-Question, Mr. Seager Hunt; Answer, The
First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. .. 1370
IRELAND-POLICY OF THE MINISTRY-Questions, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach;
Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 1371
vIRELAND-THE DISSENTING BODIES AND HOME RULE-Questions, Mr. De
Cobain, Mr. W. O'Brien; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .. .. 1372
PARLIAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-THE PROPOSED NEW RULES OF
PROOEDURE-Question, Mr. Raikes; Answer, The Chancellor of the
Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .... .. 1373
PARLIAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-ARRANGEMENT OF THE ORDERS OF
THE DAY-Questions, Mr. Raikes; Answers, Mr. Speaker .. 1373
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA-THE JOINT COMMJlTTEE-Question, Mr. Magniac;
Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 1374

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o-

SUPPLY-Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question proposed,
That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair: "-
CROWN DUTIES-RESOLUTIoN-Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 19.] .Page
SuPPLY-Order for Committee read-continued.
words "a limitation in point of time should be applicable to liabilities for duties to
the:Crown,"-(Mr. Gregory,)-instead thereof .. .. 1375
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question: "-After short debate, Amendment, by leave,
withdrawn.
NATIONAL ENGAGEMENTS-RESOLUTION-Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "in the opinion of this House, it is not just or expedient to embark in war,
contract engagements involving grave responsibilities for the 'Nation, and add
territories to the Empire without the knowledge and consent of Parliament,"-(Mr.
Richard,)-instead thereof ..... 1386
Question proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the Question:"-After debate, Question put:-The House divided;
Ayes 108, Noes 112; Majority 4.-(Div. List, No. 38 :)-Words added.
Main Question, as amended, put:- The House divided; Ayes 109,
Noes 115; Majority 6.
Division List, Ayes and Noes .. .. .. 1421
SUPPLY,-Committee upon Monday next.

PARLIAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-ARRANGEMENT OF SuPPLY-Obser-
vations, Mr. Cavendish Bentinck; Reply, The First Lord of the Trea-
sury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) :-Short]debate thereon .... 1423
Labourers (Ireland) Acts Amendment Bill [Bill 10]-
Bill considered in Committee [Progress 15th March] .. .. 1429
After some time spent therein, Bill reported.
Moved, "That the Bill, as amended, be taken into Consideration upon
Monday next" ...... 1446
Amendment proposed, by leaving out the word "Monday," in order to
insert the word Thursday,"-(Mr. Brodrick.)
Question proposed, That the word Monday' stand part of the Ques-
tion: "-After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Main Question put, and agreed to:-Bill, as amended, to be considered
upon Monday next.
SUPPLY-REPOrT-Resolutions [18th March] reported .... 1447
Moved, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said
Resolutions: "-After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Marriages (Hours of Solemnization) Bill [Bill 62J-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(r. Carvell
Williams) .. .. .. .. .. 1448
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time,
and committed for Tuesday next.
WAYs AND MEANS-ar 18] ported, and agreed to
Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill- Resolutions [March 18] reported, and agreed to
Bill ordered (Mr. Courtney, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Henry I. Fowler);
presented, and read the first time .. .... 1454
[12.30.]

LORDS, MONDAY, MARCH 22.
AFFAIrs OF BURMAHI- Observations, Viscount Cranbrook; Reply, The
Secretary of State for India (The Earl of Kimberley) .... 1455
THE NATIONAL MUSEUMs-EVENING OPENING-Queen's Answer to Ad-
dress [March 12] reported .... .... 1455







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[LMarch 22.1 Page
Dore and Chinley Railway Bill-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2"" .. .... 1455
Moved, That the Second Reading of this Bill, and of any other Bill containing pro-
visions for payment of interest out of capital during construction of works, be post-
poned until the 12th day of April next,"-( The Lord Houghton.)
After short debate, Motion agreed to.

TRINITY COLLEGE, DUBLIN-MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE-
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into and report upon the
tenure of lands under Trinity College, Dublin, and the Provost thereof in his corpo-
rate capacity; and on the working of the Trinity College, Dublin, Leasing and
Perpetuity Act, 1851, with respect to the variation of rent, and its effect on the value
of the interest respectively of the college, the perpetuity'grantees, and the occupying
perpetuity tenants of the lands,"-(The Earl of Leitrim) ... 1456
After debate, Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-MINIMUM OF ATTENDANCE AT YEOMANRY
CAVALRY TROOP DRILLS -Question, Observations, Lord Harris; Reply,
The Under Secretary of State for War (Lord Sandhurst:)-Short
debate thereon .. 1467
Law of Evidence Amendment Bill (No. 19)-
Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee upon the
said Bill,"-(The Lord Bramwell) ...... 1469
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-House in Committee accordingly:
-Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 44.) [7.45.]


COMMONS, MONDAY, MARCH 22.

Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-" SHAW V. LLOYD "-Question, Mr. W.
O'Brien; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1473
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-RULES OF LOCATION OF CONSTABLES-QueS-
tion, Mr. Alexander Blane; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) .... 1474
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS-SECRECY OF THE BALLOT-Question, Mr.
Everett; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon
Playfair) .... .. 1474
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (SCOTLAND)-SCHOOL GRANTS IN THE HIGHLANDS
-Question, Dr. Clark; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr.
Trevelyan) ..... .. 1475
PosT OFFICE-MAILS TO THE UNITED STATES-Question, Mr. Samuel
Montagu; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ...... .. 1475
IRELAND-DISTRESS IN THE TOWN OF WICKLOw-Question, Mr. W. J.
Corbet; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1476
LAW AND JUSTICE-ESTABLISHMENT OF A COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEAL-
Question, Mr. Shirley; Answer, The Attorney General (Sir Charles
Russell) .. .. 1477
ARMY-PENSIONS-CASE OF ISAAC HEMPTON-Question, Mr. M. J. Kenny;
Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) 1477
THE RAILWAY CLEARING HOUSE (IRELAND)-Question, Mr. Gilhooly; An-
swer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 1477
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-DUBLIN POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS-Question, Mr.
Johnston; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ...... .. 1478






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
L[arch 22.] Page
IRELAND-INVESTMENTS OF ENGLISH CAPITAL-Question, Mr. Joseph
Cowen; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) 1478
EGYPT -THE SYSTEM OF PENSIONS Questions, Sir George Campbell;
Answers, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr.
Bryce) .. ...... 1478
EGYPT-COST OF THE ARMY OF OCCUPATION-Questions, Sir George
Campbell; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) .. .... .. .. 1479
ARMY (INDIA)-THE INDIAN MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS-Question, Mr.
James Maclean; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir
Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) ...... 1480
HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE-IRREGULAR ATTENDANCE OF OFFICERS-Questions,
Mr. John Redmond, Mr. Addison, Mr. Labouchere; Answers, The
Attorney General (Sir Charles Russell) ...... 1481
DEFENCES OF THE EMPIRE-THE COLONIAL AND IMPERIAL NAVAL FORCES-
Question, Mr. Baden-Powell; Answer, The Under Secretary of State
for the Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) ...... 1482
CORRUPT PRACTICES ACT-POLITICAL ASSOCIATIONS-Question, Mr. Puleston ;
Answer, The Attorney General (Sir Charles Russell) .... 1483
THE CHARITY COMMISSIONERS-THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-Question,
Mr. Conybeare; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon
Playfair) .. .. .... 1483
AFRICA (RED SEA COAST)-OCCUPATION BY ITALY OF MASSOWAH-Ques-
tions, Mr. Joseph Cowen; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .... 1484
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-THE ANTRIM GRAND JURY-Questions, Mr.
Sexton, Major Saunderson; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland
(Mr. John Morley) ... .. .. 1485
V/IEELAND-HOME RULE-ALLEGED INTIMIDATION OF LANDLORDS-Question,
Mr. Sexton; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .... .. .... 1486
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT-CHISLEHURST ScHOOL-Question, Mr. Arthur
O'Connor; Answer, The Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon
Playfair) ... .. .. 1486
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-CONTEMPT OF COURT-Question, Captain
M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .... .... 1487
ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY-CASE OF DISTRICT INSPECTOR TILLY-Question,
Mr. Cox; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1488
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA-THE JOINT COMMITTEE-Question, Mr. Magniac;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred Kay-
Shuttleworth) ........ .. 1489
AFRICA (CENTRAL)-MURDER OF BISHOP HANNINGTON-Question, Mr.
Puleston; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) .. .. .. .. 1489
EGYPT-THE GARRISONS IN THE SOUDAN-Questions, Mr. W. H. Smith; An-
swers, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. 1490
COMMISSION ON DEPRESSION OF TRADE-THE SILVER CURRENCY-Questions,
Mr. Goschen, Lord Randolph Churchill; Answers, The Chancellor of
the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt) .. .. .. 1491
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS-PATENT BALLOT MACHINE-Questions, Mr.
Coote; Answers, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Childers) .... .. .. 1492
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-" BOYCOTTING "-CASE OF JOHN FORAN,
GALLEY, Co. KERRY-Questions, Major Saunderson, Mr. E. Har-
rington; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1492






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 22.] Page
MERCHANT SHIPPING-Loss OF THE OREGON," CUNARD LINER-Questions,
Mr. Macfarlane; Answers, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .. ...... 1493
INLAND REVENUE-THE LAND TAX COMMISSION-QuestiOn, Mr. Francis
Powell; Answer, A Lord of the Treasury (Mr. Leveson Gower) .. 1494
LAw AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)-Co. DONEGAL QUARTER SESSIONS-Question,
Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley).. .. .... 1494
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)-KINGSTOWN HARBOUR-QuestiOn, Mr.
Peter M'Donald; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry
H. Fowler) .. ...... .. 1495
UNIVERSITY OF ST. ANDREW'S-APPOINTMENT OF DR. DONALDSON-Question,
Mr. Boyd-Kinnear; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland (Mr. Tre-
velyan) .... .... 1495
EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY ACT-THE LONDON AND NORTH-WESTERN RAILWAY
CoMPANY-Question, Mr. Seton-Karr; Answer, The President of the
Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) ...... 1496
POOR LAW ELECTIONS (IRELAND)-THE QUEEN'S Co.-Question, Cap-
tain M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) ...... .... 1497
,/STATE OF IRELAND-CONDITION OF CORK AND TIPPERARY-CHARGES OF
THE JUDGES OF AssIZE-Questions, Captain M'Calmont, Mr. John Red-
mond, Mr. Hooper; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley).. .... 1498
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (ENGLAND AND WALES)-THE EXCELLENT MERIT
GRANT-Question, Mr. Woodhead; Answer, The Vice President of the
Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) ...... 1500
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER-WRITING ROOM OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS-
Question, Mr. Lalor; Answer, A Lord of the Treasury (Mr. Leveson
Gower) .. .. ...... 1500
IMPERIAL FEDERATION-CONFERENCE DURING THE COLONIAL EXHIBITION-
Question, Mr. Howard Vincent; Answer, The First Lord of the Trea-
sury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) ...... 1500
STATE OF IRELAND-" BOYCOTTING "-STATEMENTS OF CLERGYMEN OF THE
IRISH CHURCH-Questions, Mr. De Cobain, Mr. Sexton; Answers, The
First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone), Mr. Speaker .. 1501
PARLTAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE-Question, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach;
Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) .. 1503
RULES AND ORDERS OF THE HOUSE-PROCEDURE AT QUESTION TIME-
Questions, Mr. William Redmond, Mr. Cavendish Bentinck; Answers,
Mr. Speaker, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone).. 1503
RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC BILL-Question, Sir Joseph Pease; Answer,
The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. .. 1505
AFFAIRS OF BURMAH-Question, Mr. Wodehouse; Answer, The Under
Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) ,. 1505
ARMY-THE INFANTRY OF THE LINE (NUMBERs)-Question, Mr. Brand; An-
swer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .. 1505

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-0-
SUPPLY-Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question pro-
posed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair: "-
ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)-THE VOLUNTEER CAPITATION GRANT--ESOLU-
TION-Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "for the thorough efficiency, maintenance, and development of the Volunteer







TABLE OF CONTENTS.

LMarch 22.1 Page
SurrLY-Order for Committee read- continued.
Force, an immediate increase in the present capitation grant is absolutely and
urgently necessary,"-(Mr. Howard Vincent,)-instead thereof .. .. 1506
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question: "-After debate, Question put:-The House divided;
Ayes 187, Noes 166 ; Majority 21.
Division List, Ayes and Noes .... .. 1534
Main Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair:"-
EGYPT-COST OF THE ARMY OF DEFENCE-Observations, Sir George
Campbell:-Short debate thereon ...... 1537
DEFENCES OF THE EMPIRE-DEFENCE OF COALING STATIONs-Observations,
Mr. W. H. Smith :-Debate thereon .. .. 1543
AnMY (AUXILIARY FORCEs)-VOLUJNTEER ARTILLERY-Observations, Mr.
Mark Stewart ...... .. 1564
ARMY-THE SOLDIER's RATION-Observations, Dr. R. Farquharson :-
Debate thereon ...... .. 1569
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and
agreed to.

SUPPLY-considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
ARMY ESTIMATES-DEPARTMENTAL STATEMENT-
(i.) 151,867 Men, Land Forces at Home and Abroad.-After short debate, Vote
agreed to .. .. .. .. 1588
(2.) 4,457,300, Pay and Allowances.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow: Committee to sit again upon
Wednesday.
WAYS AND MEANS-
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the Service
of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, the sum of 4,457,300 be granted
out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom .. .. 1600
Resolution to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.

Highway Acts Amendment Bill-Ordered (Mr. Duckham, Mr. More, Mr. Thomas
Blake); presented, and read the first time [Bill 149] .. .. 1600
[1.15.]

LORDS, TUESDAY, MARCH 23.
PRIVATE BILLS-
Ordered, That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a
second time after Friday the 25th day of June next [and other Orders] .. 1601

Union of Benefices Bill (No. 20)-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2,"--(The Earl of Milltown) .. 1601
Amendment moved, to leave out ("now,") and add at the end of the
Motion ("this day six months,")-(The Lord Bishop of London.)
After short debate, on Question, That ("now") stand part of the Motion?
Resolved in the negative.
Bill to be read 2" this day six months.






TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 23.J Page
INDIA-ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE-MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS-
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Return of the taxes
and duties raised or levied on the administration of justice in India during the year
1885, whether by stamps, ad valorem duties, or otherwise, under the Act of the
Governor General of India in Council in 1870, or any of the Acts referred to therein,
or otherwise ; and that the subject of the taxation of justice in India be referred to
the Select Committee on the operation of the Act for the better government of India
(1858), and certain other Acts relating to India,"-(The Lord .itzGerald) .. 1612
After short debate, Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
DISTURBANCES IN THE METROPOLIS TBE DUTIES OF SOLDIERS Observa-
tions, Lord de Ros:-Short debate thereon .... 1617
Burgh Police and Health (Scotland) Bill (No. 28)-
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2,"--(The Earl of Elgin) .. 1624
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read 21 accordingly, and com-
mitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.
Idiots Bill [H.L.]-Presented (The Lord Chancellor); read 1* (No. 46) .... 1627
L7.30.]

COMMONS, TUESDAY, MARCH 23.

Q UESTIO NS.
-0-
POOR LAW (ENGLAND AND WALES)-COLLECTION OF RATES AT CREWKERNE
-Question, Mr. H. R. Farquharson; Answer, The President of the
Local Government Board (Mr. J. Chamberlain) .... 1628
ARMY (IRELAND) DEATH OF PRIVATE AHERNE AT BELFAST-Questions,
Mr. Sexton; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. .. 1629
HIGHLANDS AND ISLANDS (SCOTLAND) -DISTRESS IN THE HEBRIDES-
Question, Mr. Fraser-Mackintosh; Answer, The Secretary for Scotland
(Mr. Trevelyan) .. .. 1631
LUNATIC ASYLUMS (IRELAND) RETURN OF SALARIES, &C. OF CHIEF
OFFICERS-Question, Mr. Cox; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ire-
land (Mr. John Morley) ...... .1631
INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION WALESS) Question, Mr. Yeo; Answer, The
Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .. 1632
PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND) WIICLOW HARBOUR THE BARONIAL
GUARANTEE-Question, Mr. W. J. Corbet; Answer, The Chief Secre-
tary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 1632
RAILWAYS (INDIA)-THE BENGAL CENTRAL RAILWAY COMPANY-Question,
Sir George Campbell; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for
India (Sir Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) ...... 1633
BURMAH-EXECUTION OF REBELS AND DACOITS-Question, Sir George
Campbell; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir
Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) ...... 1634
CHARITY COMMISSIONERS-SCHEMES OF ALLOTMENTS-LADY DODD'S CHARITY,
ELLESBOROUGH, BucKs-Question, Dr. Foster; Answer, The Vice Presi-
dent of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) .. .. .. 1635
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS-PUBLIC SALE-THE QUARTERLY LISTS-Question,
Mr. Arthur Acland; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry
H. Fowler) .... .. .. 1636
LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACTs LABOURERS' COTTAGES IN INNISHOWEN-
Question, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answer, The Chief Secretary for
Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. 1.636
PosT OFFICE (IRELAND) POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS IN ROSCOMMON Ques-
tion, Mr. Hayden; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) .. ., .. .. 1637






TABLE OF CONTENTS.


L[March 23.]


Page


POST OFFICE-REGISTERED TELEGRAPHIC ADDRESSES-Question, Mr. David
Smith; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. .... .. 1637
NAVY PENSIONS FOR WIDOWS OF SEAMEN AND MARINES Question,
Captain Price; Answer, The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W.
Duff) ... .. .... 1638
POLICE (ENGLAND AND WALES) DISTURBANCE IN LEEDS-Question, Mr.
William Redmond; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Childers) .. .. 1638
NAvY-ENGINE-ROOM ARTIFICERS Question, Colonel Hughes Hallett;
Answer, The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duff) .. 1639
AnMY-CAVALRY TROOP OFFICERS-Question, Lord Ernest Hamilton; An-
swer, The Financial Secretary, War Department (Mr. Herbert
Gladstone) .......... 1639
COMMERCIAL TREATY WITH ITALY-ITALIAN SHIPPING BOUNTIES ACT--
Questions, Mr. Tomlinson; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .... 1640
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (IRELAND) CANDIDATES' SOLICITORS AND THE
SCRUTINY OF VOTES-Question, Mr. William O'Brien; Answer, The
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... 1641
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)--RELEASE OF IRISH MOONLIGHTERS- Question,
Mr. Albert Grey; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. ...... .. 1641
NAvY-ACCIDENT ON BOARD H.M.S. ALBATROSs "-Question, Mr. Ritchie;
Answer, The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duff) .. 1642
PARLIAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE--COFTERS (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL
-Questions, Mr. Macfarlane, Mr. lWilliam Redmond; Answers, The
First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. E. Gladstone), Mr. Speaker .. 1642

MOTIONS.
-a-o
LOCAL TAXATION (INCIDENCE) -RESOLUTION-
Moved, That the present system under which, in England and Wales, the first Inci-
dence of Local Taxation (with some slight exceptions) falls on the occupier and not
on the owner of lands and tenements is unjust; that such owners ought in equity to
bear at least a moiety of those charges; that the system under which country
mansions are rated is unfair ; and that the owners of ground rents in towns are liable
to no part of those charges, the outlay of which is essential in order that the property
may possess any marketable value whatever,"--(Mr. Thorold Rogers) .. 1643
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word That to the end of the Question, in order to add the
words "while the apportionment of the payment of Rates between landlord and
tenant may be desirable, as part of a complete scheme for remedying the admitted
inequalities of the Incidence of Local Taxation, this House is of opinion that the
financial injustice complained of can only be removed by a comprehensive measure,
and that an equitable re-adjustment of Taxation, as between real and personal pro-
perty, is urgently required,"-(Sir Richard Paget,)-instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the Question: "-After long debate, Question put:-The House
divided; Ayes 205, Noes 186; Majority 19.
Division List, Ayes and Noes .... .. 1701
Main Question again proposed .... .. 1704
After short debate, Main Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 216,
Noes 176; Majority 40.-(Div. List, No. 42.)
Main Question agreed to.
VOL. C00III. [THIRD SERIES.] L g






TABLE OF CONTENTS.

IMarch 23.1 Page
ARMY (ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT)-RESOLUTION-
Moved, That a Committee be appointed to inquire into the whole question of guns,
and the working of the Factories at Woolwich, Enfield,'and Birmingham,"--(Mr.
Carbutt) ........... 1709
After short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-0-
School Fees of Non-Paupers Bill [Bill 114]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Jir. Llewellyn) .. 1721
Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"--(Jr. Joseph Chamberlain:)
-After short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question put: -Bill read a second time, and committed for
Tuesday 6th April.
Lunacy (Vacating of Seats) Bill [Bill 85]-
Bill considered in Committee .. ... .. 1726
Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Marriages (Hours of Solemnization) Bill [Bill 621-
Bill considered in Committee .... 1726
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Friday.
SUPPLY-
ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL-
Resolutions [22nd March] reported, and agreed to.
Ordered, That the Resolution which, upon the 16th day of this instant March, was
reported from the Committee of Supply, and then agreed to by the House, be now
read; and the same was read, as followeth:-
That 61,400 men and boys be employed for the Sea and Coast Guard Services, for
the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, including 12,900 Royal Marines.
Ordered, That leave be given to bring in a Bill, to provide, during twelve months, for
the Discipline and Regulation of the Army, and that Mr. Secretary Campbell-Ban-
nerman, the Judge Advocate General, and Mr. Hibbert do prepare and bring it in.
Bill presented, and read the first time [Bill 150] .... .. 1727
WAYS AND MEANS-
Resolution [22nd March] reported, and agreed to .. .. 1727
Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Consolidated Fund
(No. 2) Bill, That they have power to make provision therein, pursuant to the said
Resolution.
MOTIONS.
FORESTRY- -----
Select Committee appointed, to consider whether, by the establishment of a Forest
School, or otherwise, our Wood ands could be rendered more remunerative,"-(Sir
John Lubbock) .. ...... .. 1727
VENTILATION OF THE HOUSE-
Select Committee appointed :-List of the Committee .. .. .. 1727
[1.15. I

COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 24.
ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
0--
Tithe Rent-Charge (Extraordinary) Amendment Bill [Bill 611
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Mr. Norton) .. 1728
After debate, Question put, and agreed to:-Bill read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be referred to a Select Committee,"-(Mr.
Secretary Childers:)-After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :
-Bill committed to a Select Committee.







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ arch 24.] Page
Tithe Rent-Charge Amendment Bill [Bill 65]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(Colonel Brookfield) 1742
After short debate, Question put, and agreed to :-Bill read a second time,
and committed to the Select Committee on the Tithe Rent-Charge
(Extraordinary) Amendment Bill.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday (Durham) Bill-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(flr. T. Fry) .. 1750
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"-(Mr.
Milvain.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question "
-After debate. Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"-(Mr.
Gent-Davis :)-Question put, and negatived.
Original Question put:-The House divided; Ayes 163, Noes 82;
Majority 81.-(Div. List, No. 43.)
Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow.
Tithe Rent-Charge (Extraordinary) Redemption Bill [Bill 63]-
Moved, That the Bill be now road a second time,"--(.r. T. II. Bolton) 1769
Question put, and agreed to :- Bill read a second time, and committed
to the Select Committee on the Tithe Rent-Charge (Extraordinary)
Amendment Bill.
Marriage with a Deceased Wife's Sister Bill [Bill 49]-
Order for Second Reading read .. .. 1769
After short debate, Second Reading deferred till Wednesday 7th April.
Married Women (Maintenance in Case of Desertion) Bill-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"-(.lr. Palley) 1769
After short debate, Debate adjourned till Wednesday next.
Compulsory Purchase of Land Compensation Bill [Bill 145]-
Moved, "That the Order for Second Reading be discharged,"-(Mr.
Gregory) ... .. .. .. 1771
After short debate, Motion, by leave, withdrawn:-Second Reading
deferred till Wednesday 7th April.
Drowned Persons (Discovery and Interment) Bill [Bill 123]-
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time,"--(Colonel Ifughes) .. 1772
After short debate, Motion agreed to :-Bill read a second time, and
committed for Wednesday 7th April. [5.15.]

LORDS, THURSDAY, MARCH 25.
THE NATIONAL MUSEUMS-EVENING OPENING--RESOLUTION-
Moved to resolve,
"That it would be expedient that museums should be opened by daylight only, and
should be closed during the time of afternoon Divine Service, on Sundays,"- (The
Lord Denman) .... .. .... 1774
On Question, Resolved in the negative. [4.45.]

COMMONS, THURSDAY, MARCH 25.
CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS (BARROW IN FURNESS) .. 1775

Q QUESTIONS.
-0-o
LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)--MR. BARRON, COUNTY COURT JUDGE, CO.
MONAGHAN-Question, Mr. W. O'Brien; Answer, The Chief Secretary
for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .... ..1776







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[ larch 25.] Page
LAw AND JUSTICE-CARDIFF COUNTY COURT-WELSII WITNESSES -Question,
Mr. A. J. Williams; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home
Department (Mr. Childers) .... .... 1777
LAw AND POLICE (IRELAND)-DEATII OF CORNELIUS COSGRAVE AT EDGE-
WORTIISTOWN, Co. LONGFOnR-Questions, Mr. Justin M'Carthy, Mr.
Sexton; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1778
SUNDAY CLOSING (IRELAND)-EXTENSION or LEGISLATION Question, Mr.
T. Fry; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) 1779
NAVY-PEMBROKE DOKYARD--Question, Mr. H. G. Allen; Answer, The
Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duff) .. 1779
POST OFFICE (IRELAND)-TELEGRAPII DEPARTMENT-TELEGRAPH OFFICE,
SHANAGOLDEN, Co. LIMERICK-Question, Mr. W. Abraham (Limerick
Co., W.); Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) .. .. 1780
NAvY-H.M.SS. "NILE" AND "TRAFALGAR "- Question, Mr. C. H.
Wilson; Answer, The Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Hibbert) .. 1780
THE DUCHY OF CORNWALL THE COINAGE DUTIES Questions, Mr.
Bradlaugh; Answers, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ... .. .. 1781
PoST OFFICE- ABBREVIATED TELEGRAPHIC ADDRESSES Question, Mr.
Seton-Karr; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H.
Fowler) ....... .. 1782
THE PARLIAMENTARY REGISTER TIE VESTRY CLERK OF ST. PANCREAS -
Questions, Mr. Baggallay; Answers, The Secretary to the Local
Government Board (Mr. Jesse Collings) .. 1783
THE PHOENIX PARK (DUBLIN)-PRIVATE ENCLOSURES-Question, Mr. Clancy;
Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 1783
PRIVILEGE-FOROED SIGNATURES To PETITIONs-Questions, Mr. Clancy, Mr.
Sexton; Answers, Sir Charles Forster ... 1784
LUNATIC ASYLUMS (IRELAND)-OMAGH DISTRICT LUNATIC ASYLUM-Ques-
tion, Mr. O'Hanlon; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) ...... 1785
POOR LAW (IRELAND) ELECTION OF GUARDIANS MESSRS. J. W. PAYNE
AND JOHN E. PAYNE-Question, Mr. Gilhooly; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) ...... 1786
POST OFFICE (IRELAND) MAIL SERVICE BETWEEN ATHENRY AND GORT -
Question, Mr. Sheely; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr.
Henry H. Fowler) .. ..1 786
LAW AND JUSTICE-" BRYCE V. RUSDEN"-SIR ARTHUR GORDON-Ques-
tions, Mr. Cobb; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for the
Colonies (Mr. Osborne Morgan) .... .. 1787
REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS, MARRIAGES, &0.-6 & 7 WILL. IV. C. 85, s. 17--
REGISTRAR OF MARRIAGES AT CONWAY-Question, Mr. Kenyon; Answer,
The Secretary to the Local Government Board (Mr. Jesse Collings) .. 1788
BANKRUPTCY APPOINTMENT OF ASSISTANT RECEIVERS Question, Mr.
Lionel Cohen; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Mundella) .... .. .. 1788
ARMY OFFICERS OF THE RESERVE CORPS Question, Colonel Hughes-
Hallett ; Answer, The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-
Bannerman) .... .. 1789
MERCHANT SHIPPING-Loss OF THE "OREGON," CUNARD LINER-Questions,
Mr. Macfarlane, Mr. Forwood, Captain Price; Answers, The President
of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. 1790
ARMY RECRUITING-Question, Sir George Campbell; Answer, The Secre-
tary of State for War (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) .... 1791
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-THE CURTIN FAMILY-Question, Captain
M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John
Morley) .. .... .. 1792







TABLE OF CONTENTS.
[March 25.1 Pago
SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE-THE GREco-TURaISI FRONTIER-Question, Dr.
Clark; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
(Mr. Bryce) .... ... 1792
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (IRELAND)-CONTEMPT OF COURT-Question,
Captain M'Calmont; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr.
John Morley) ........ 1793
MADAGASCAR AND FRANCE-THE TREATY OF PEACE-Question, Mr. M'Arthur;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr.
Bryce) .. ...... .. 1794
METROPOLIS-PROOESSIONS OF THE UNEMPLOYED-Question, Mr. Bristowe;
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) 1794
SoUTI AFRICA-TIHE BOERS AND THE SWAZIE Question, Sir Robert
Fowler; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr.
Osborne Morgan) ........ 1795
IRELAND-GOVERNMENT LOANS FOR IRISH PURPOSEs-Questions, Mr. Albert
Grey, Mr. Parnell, Sir John Gorst, Mr. Sexton; Answers, The Secre-
tary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 1796
PoST OFFICE ABBREVIATED TELEGRAPHIC ADDRESSES -Question, Mr.
Labouchere; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry
H. Fowler) ........ .. 1797
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA-THE JOINT COMMITTEE-Question Mr. Buchanan;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir Ughtred Kay-
Shuttleworth) ........ 1797
BURMAH, UPPER AND LOWER-THE MILITARY COMMAND--Question, Mr.
Buchanan; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for India (Sir
Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth) .. .. 1798
MINES REGULATION ACT-Question, Mr. John Redmond; Answer, The
Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 1798
POST OFFICE-TELEGRAMS-INCOMPLETE ADDRESSES-Question, Mr. For-
wood; Answer, The Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) 1798
HALL-MARKING OF FOREIGN PLATE-Question, Mr. Forwood; Answer, The
President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .... 1799
TRADE AND COM[ERCE-FOREIGN BOUNTIES ON SUGAR PRODUCTION-RE-
TALIATORY DUTIES-Questions, Mr. Kimber, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach,
Mr. Ritchie, Mr. Arthur O'Connor; Answers, The President of the
Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) .. .... 1800
TRADE AND COMMERCE-BRITISH COMMERCIAL INTERESTS ABROAD-INSTRUC-
TIONS TO H.M. AGENTS-Question, Lord William Compton; Answer,
The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) .. 1801
VACCINATION-THE ISLAND OF RUGEN-Question, Mr. Arthur O'Connor ;
Answer, The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) 1802
PRIsoN DISCIPLINE-TREADMILLS-Question, Mr. Ruston; Answer, The
Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Childers) .. 1802
TRADE AND COMMERCE-ANNUAL REPORTS FROM THE COLONIES-Question,
Mr. Hutton; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for the Colonies
(Mr. Osborne Morgan) .... .. 1803
NAVY-ROCIrE'S POINT COASTGUARD STATION-Question, Dr. Tanner; An-
swer, The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. R. W. Duff) .. 1804
GUN LICENCES (IRELAND)-Question, Mr. Macartney; Answer, The Chief
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. John Morley) .. .. 1805
REGISTRATION ACT (IRELAND), 1885-NON-PAYMENT OF POSTAGE OF RE-
QUISITION FoRMs-Question, Lord Ernest Hamilton; Answer, The
Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .. 1805
PosT OFFICE SAVINGS BANK-Question, Mr. Bartley; Answer, The Secre-
tary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) .... 1806
TRADE AND COMMERCE-REPORTS ON FOREIGN TRADE-INSTRUCTIONS TO
H.M. AGENTS-Question, Mr. Hutton; Answer, The Under Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bryce) ...... 1806







.TABLE OF CONTENTS.

SLfMarch 25.1 Page
IRELAND-A SEPARATE PARLIAMENT-Questions, Mr. De Cobain, Mr.
Sexton ; Answers, Mr. Speaker .. .. 1807
IRELAND-POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT-Ministerial Statement, The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer (Sir William Harcourt); Questions, Sir
Michael Hicks Beach, Mr. Macfarlane; Answers, Sir William
Harcourt) .. .. ...... 1808

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
-o -
SUPPLY-considered in Committee-AnRY ESTIMATES-
(In the Committee.)
(r.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 866,500, be
granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Clothing Establishments,
Services, and Supplies, which will come in course of payment during the year
ending on the 31st day of March 1887 .. .... 1809
After long debate, Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding
849,000, be granted, &c.,"-(Sir George Campbell) .... 1890
After further debate, Question put: The Committee divided; Ayes 66, Noes
290 ; Majority 224.-(Div. List, No. 44.)
Original Question again proposed ........ 1907
Moved, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"-(Mr.
Campbell-Bannerman :)-M-otion agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Contagious Diseases Acts Repeal (No. 2) Bill [Bill 147]-
Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time,"-( Mr. Stansfeld) .. 1908
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this day six months,"--(.r.
Cavendish Bentinck.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question: "
-After short debate, Question put, and agreed to.
Main Question put, and agreed to:-Bill read a second time, and
committed for To-morrow.
Compensation for Damages Bill [Bill 120]-
Bill considered in Committee .... ... 19-24
After short time spent therein, Bill reported; as amended, to be con-
sidered To-morrow.
'Labourers (Ireland) Acts Amendment Bill [Bill 10]-
Bill, as amended, considered .. .... 1930
After debate, Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.
CROFTERS (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) [ADVANCES]-
Considered in Committee ........ 1950
Resolution agreed to ; to be reported To-morrow.

MOTIONS.
-0-
Cape Race Lighthouse Bill-Ordered (Mr. C. Acland, Mr. Mtandella, ir. Osborne
Morgan); presented, and read the first time [Bill 151] .... 1950
Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act (1855) Amendment Bill-Ordered (iMr. Preston
Bruce, Sir Herbert Maxwell, Mr. Donald Crawford) ; presented, and read the first
time [Bill 152] .. ... .. ., 1950
[3.30.]

































NEW WRIT ISSUED.
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 17.
For Cheshire County (Altrincham Division), v. John Brooks, esquire, deceased.














HANSARD'S


PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

IN THE

FIRST SESSION OF THE TirENTY- THIRD PARLIAMENT OF THE

UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND,

APPOINTED TO MEET 12 JANUARY, 1886, IN THE FORTY-NINTH

YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN VICTORIA.


SECOND VOLUME OF SESSION 1886.


HOUSE OF LORDS,

Friday, 5th MJarch, 1886.


MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLs-Second Reading-
Drill Grounds (24).
Third Reading-Marriages Validity* (11), and
passed.
Royal Assent-Land Registry [49 Vict. c. 1].
DRILL GROUNDS BILL.
(The Lord Sandhurst.)
(No. 24.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Read-
ing read.
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF
STATE FOR WAR (Lord SANDHURST),
in moving that the Bill be now read the
second time, said, as this was his first
endeavour to pilot a Bill through their
Lordships' House, he had to ask their
Lordships to regard his shortcomings
with leniency; and, on the ground of his
inexperience, to forgive any errors of
which he feared he must inevitably be
VOL. CCCIII. [THIRD SERIES.]


guilty. The Bill which he asked their
Lordships to read a second time was of
a very simple nature, and he should
have to occupy them but a very few
minutes. The Bill was one-
For extending, with amendments, to grounds
for drill and other military purposes the enact-
ments relating to the acquisition and regulation
of rifle ranges."
He must, therefore, refer to the two Acts
of which this Bill was to be the exten-
sion. One was the Volunteer Act, 1863;
the other the Artillery and Rifle Ranges
Act, 1885. In the first of these, a power
was given to Volunteer corps, with the
assent of the Secretary of State, to ac-
quire land for artillery and rifle ranges;
and it was now contemplated to extend
this power in order to acquire land for
drilling purposes for Volunteers and all
other military forces. These powers re-
lated merely to the acquisition of land.
The Act of 1885 contained power for the
Secretary of State to make bye-laws
which should secure the safety of the
public, and, at the same time, prevent
any intrusion on the ranges to the incon-
B














HANSARD'S


PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES,

IN THE

FIRST SESSION OF THE TirENTY- THIRD PARLIAMENT OF THE

UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND,

APPOINTED TO MEET 12 JANUARY, 1886, IN THE FORTY-NINTH

YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN VICTORIA.


SECOND VOLUME OF SESSION 1886.


HOUSE OF LORDS,

Friday, 5th MJarch, 1886.


MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLs-Second Reading-
Drill Grounds (24).
Third Reading-Marriages Validity* (11), and
passed.
Royal Assent-Land Registry [49 Vict. c. 1].
DRILL GROUNDS BILL.
(The Lord Sandhurst.)
(No. 24.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Read-
ing read.
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF
STATE FOR WAR (Lord SANDHURST),
in moving that the Bill be now read the
second time, said, as this was his first
endeavour to pilot a Bill through their
Lordships' House, he had to ask their
Lordships to regard his shortcomings
with leniency; and, on the ground of his
inexperience, to forgive any errors of
which he feared he must inevitably be
VOL. CCCIII. [THIRD SERIES.]


guilty. The Bill which he asked their
Lordships to read a second time was of
a very simple nature, and he should
have to occupy them but a very few
minutes. The Bill was one-
For extending, with amendments, to grounds
for drill and other military purposes the enact-
ments relating to the acquisition and regulation
of rifle ranges."
He must, therefore, refer to the two Acts
of which this Bill was to be the exten-
sion. One was the Volunteer Act, 1863;
the other the Artillery and Rifle Ranges
Act, 1885. In the first of these, a power
was given to Volunteer corps, with the
assent of the Secretary of State, to ac-
quire land for artillery and rifle ranges;
and it was now contemplated to extend
this power in order to acquire land for
drilling purposes for Volunteers and all
other military forces. These powers re-
lated merely to the acquisition of land.
The Act of 1885 contained power for the
Secretary of State to make bye-laws
which should secure the safety of the
public, and, at the same time, prevent
any intrusion on the ranges to the incon-
B






Regulation Act. 6


trades, were duly qualified to act as Fac-
tory and Workshop Inspectors with every
prospect of their utility; and he should
hope that a certain number of intelligent
women conversant with the duties and
requirements of their sex in various
trades would prove valuable auxiliaries
to the present Inspectors.
LoRD THURLOW, in reply, said,
that the question raised by the noble
Viscount's Question was one of great
interest; but, at the same time, it was one
of extreme difficulty. The subject had
occupied the attention of the Home De-
partment for several years, and it was
still under consideration. The difficul-
ties in the way of following the sugges-
tion of the noble Lord were greater than
at first sight one might be inclined to
fancy. There was a great difference be-
tween the duties of a Poor Law In-
spector, which Mrs. Senior discharged,
and those of a Factory and Workshop
Inspector. This subject had been dealt
with at considerable length in the Re-
port of the Chief Inspector of Factories
for 1879 and 1880; and that official
expressed the opinion that the duties
which devolved upon a Factory Inspector
could not be discharged by a lady.
The Chief Inspector said the day's
work of a Factory Inspector some-
times extended from 6 or 8 in the
morning to 8 and 10 o'clock at night;
and he was forced to the convic-
tion that it was work for a man and not
for a woman, the multifarious duties
being really incompatible with the cha-
racter of a woman. In a previous Report
the Chief Inspector referred to the ex-
posure to which Inspectors were sub-
jected, and the necessity for examining
machinery in workshops could not be
undertaken by women. Those were
some of the difficulties which stood in
the way of carrying out the suggestion.
He was instructed to say that at the
present moment, at any rate, there was
no intention to appoint a female In-
spector of Factories and Workshops.
The subject, however, remained under
the attention of the Home Office, and
from time to time it would be considered
to what extent and how far the sugges-
tion could be carried out.
House adjourned at a quarter before Five
o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter
before Eleven o'clock.


IOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, 5th March, 1886.


MINUTES.] SELECT COMMITTEES Educa-
tional Endowments, Mr. H. G. Allen dish. ;
Mr. William Abraham (Glamorgan) added;
Salmon and Trout Fishing (Ireland), ap-
pointed.
SUPPLY- considered in Committee-n.P.
PRIVATE BILLS (by Order)-Second Reading-
Leeds Hydraulic Power Company *; Lincoln-
shire Marshes and East Coast Railway*;
Louth, lablethorpe, Sutton, and Willoughby
Railway.*
PuBLIC BILLS Ordered First Reading -
Metropolitan Commons Provisional Order*
[132].
Second Reading Freshwater Fisheries (Eels)
[128]; Metropolitan Board of Works (Water
Supply, &c.) [34], put of; Trees (Ireland)
[30].

QUESTIONS.
--_o---
MINES REGULATION ACT--TIIE BOG
COLLIERY EXPLOSION.
Mn. MASON asked the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, If he
will inquire into the cause of an explo-
sion of fire damp which occurred in Bog
Colliery, Yorkhall, on 2nd November
last, whereby three men were injured;
if it was the duty of the manager to have
reported the explosion to the Inspector
of Mines; whether the Inspector's atten-
tion was called to the accident eight
days thereafter; and, what action was
taken thereupon ?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
CHILDEns) : As soon as the hon. Mem-
ber called my attention to this explosion
I at once made inquiry into the matter.
It appears that the Inspector visited the
mine on November 10, the accident
having occurred on the second of that
month. Undoubtedly, it was the duty
of the manager to report the accident,
and he probably did so. The accident
was caused by the fall of a roof, in which
it seems that a small quantity of gas
was lurking. This was driven out by
the concussion of a fall, and ignited at one
of the lamps which the men were using
As no gas had been seen in the colliery
for two years naked lights were used.
The Inspector attaches no blame to the
men under these circumstances. In con-
sequence of this accident safety lamps
are now being used in the mine.
B2


5 mines


IMaRon 5, 18861






Regulation Act. 6


trades, were duly qualified to act as Fac-
tory and Workshop Inspectors with every
prospect of their utility; and he should
hope that a certain number of intelligent
women conversant with the duties and
requirements of their sex in various
trades would prove valuable auxiliaries
to the present Inspectors.
LoRD THURLOW, in reply, said,
that the question raised by the noble
Viscount's Question was one of great
interest; but, at the same time, it was one
of extreme difficulty. The subject had
occupied the attention of the Home De-
partment for several years, and it was
still under consideration. The difficul-
ties in the way of following the sugges-
tion of the noble Lord were greater than
at first sight one might be inclined to
fancy. There was a great difference be-
tween the duties of a Poor Law In-
spector, which Mrs. Senior discharged,
and those of a Factory and Workshop
Inspector. This subject had been dealt
with at considerable length in the Re-
port of the Chief Inspector of Factories
for 1879 and 1880; and that official
expressed the opinion that the duties
which devolved upon a Factory Inspector
could not be discharged by a lady.
The Chief Inspector said the day's
work of a Factory Inspector some-
times extended from 6 or 8 in the
morning to 8 and 10 o'clock at night;
and he was forced to the convic-
tion that it was work for a man and not
for a woman, the multifarious duties
being really incompatible with the cha-
racter of a woman. In a previous Report
the Chief Inspector referred to the ex-
posure to which Inspectors were sub-
jected, and the necessity for examining
machinery in workshops could not be
undertaken by women. Those were
some of the difficulties which stood in
the way of carrying out the suggestion.
He was instructed to say that at the
present moment, at any rate, there was
no intention to appoint a female In-
spector of Factories and Workshops.
The subject, however, remained under
the attention of the Home Office, and
from time to time it would be considered
to what extent and how far the sugges-
tion could be carried out.
House adjourned at a quarter before Five
o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter
before Eleven o'clock.


IOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, 5th March, 1886.


MINUTES.] SELECT COMMITTEES Educa-
tional Endowments, Mr. H. G. Allen dish. ;
Mr. William Abraham (Glamorgan) added;
Salmon and Trout Fishing (Ireland), ap-
pointed.
SUPPLY- considered in Committee-n.P.
PRIVATE BILLS (by Order)-Second Reading-
Leeds Hydraulic Power Company *; Lincoln-
shire Marshes and East Coast Railway*;
Louth, lablethorpe, Sutton, and Willoughby
Railway.*
PuBLIC BILLS Ordered First Reading -
Metropolitan Commons Provisional Order*
[132].
Second Reading Freshwater Fisheries (Eels)
[128]; Metropolitan Board of Works (Water
Supply, &c.) [34], put of; Trees (Ireland)
[30].

QUESTIONS.
--_o---
MINES REGULATION ACT--TIIE BOG
COLLIERY EXPLOSION.
Mn. MASON asked the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, If he
will inquire into the cause of an explo-
sion of fire damp which occurred in Bog
Colliery, Yorkhall, on 2nd November
last, whereby three men were injured;
if it was the duty of the manager to have
reported the explosion to the Inspector
of Mines; whether the Inspector's atten-
tion was called to the accident eight
days thereafter; and, what action was
taken thereupon ?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
CHILDEns) : As soon as the hon. Mem-
ber called my attention to this explosion
I at once made inquiry into the matter.
It appears that the Inspector visited the
mine on November 10, the accident
having occurred on the second of that
month. Undoubtedly, it was the duty
of the manager to report the accident,
and he probably did so. The accident
was caused by the fall of a roof, in which
it seems that a small quantity of gas
was lurking. This was driven out by
the concussion of a fall, and ignited at one
of the lamps which the men were using
As no gas had been seen in the colliery
for two years naked lights were used.
The Inspector attaches no blame to the
men under these circumstances. In con-
sequence of this accident safety lamps
are now being used in the mine.
B2


5 mines


IMaRon 5, 18861







7 Law and


CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-
ALLEGED "BOYCOTTING" OF
NATIONALISTS.
MR. W. O'BRIEN asked the Chief Se-
cretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
Whether his attention has been called
to a notice posted at the Beragh (county
Tyrone) Railway Station; whether the
Alexander Steen referred to occupies
the position of Stamp Distributor and
Registrar of Births, &c. for the Clogher
District; whether all persons named in
the notice as those for whom ho carts
goods were, with the exception of offi-
cials, supporters of the Orange candi-
date at the election then pending, and
all the persons, without exception, posted
as traders not approved by him, were
supporters of the Nationalist candidate;
whether the author of this notice is the
" A. Steen whose name was signed to
a placard summoning an Orange counter-
demonstration at the time and place
fixed for a lawful Nationalist election
meeting, the placard being couched in
the following terms :-
"Loyalists and Orangemen of South Tyrone,
assemble in your strength at Clogher on the
3rd December inst. and hurl back your country's
invaders.
"A. Steen.
Clogher, 28th November, 1885."
Whether, in response to this appeal, a
number of Orangemen did assemble for
the purpose of attacking the Nationalist
meeting, to the imminent danger of the
public peace; whether Steen's name is
also signed as one of the Committee of
" the North West of Ireland Registra-
tion Association" to a handbill sum-
moning a meeting of Loyalist electors"
in the court house, Clogher, on the 20th
February, for the purpose of forming a
branch of the Association; and, whe-
ther, under these circumstances, Steen
will be retained in his offices, or whether
he will be prosecuted for boycotting ? I
am, Sir, sorry that the Rules of the
House will not permit me to put the
terms of the placard on the Notice Paper.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.
JOHN MORLEY), in reply, said, that Alex-
ander Steen did hold the position men-
tioned. He had made inquiries, and
had been unable to ascertain whether it
was his signature that had been ap-
pended to the Notice which the hon.
Member had been good enough to send
him. He had been advised that a pro-


section for Boycotting" could not be
sustained on that notice. He could not
obtain evidence throughthe Constabulary
that Alexander Steen was the person
who had signed the placard. He was
informed that the meeting of Orangemen
was the first summoned.
MR. W. O'BRIEN: If I am able to
give the right hon. Gentleman evidence
that Steen was the person who called the
Orange demonstration, and that was
called subsequently to the Nationalist
meeting being convened, will that give
ground for the dismissal of Steen from
his position ?
MR. JOHNSTON: May I ask whe-
ther it is to be a subject for dismissal
the taking part in an anti-rebel demon-
stration ?
MR. JOHN MORLEY: In reply to
the Question of the hon. Member, I can-
not promise dismissal until the evidence
is laid before us.
MR. MACARTNEY: Are we to under-
stand that Nationalists are the only
people who can-- Order! "]

THE MAGISTRACY (ENGLAND AND
WALES)-THE WORTHING MAGIS-
TRATES, SUSSEX.
MR. BRADLAUGH asked the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department,
If his attention has been drawn to the
case of George Skinner, 60 years of age,
sentenced by the Worthing Magistrates
to one month's imprisonment with hard
labour for stealing coal value lid. not-
withstanding it was his first offence;
and, whether he will take any action in
the matter?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
CHILDERs): Yes, Sir; my attention has
been called to this case. It appears that
the prisoner stole 15 lbs. of coal, and the
sentence was unanimously agreed upon
by a bench of six magistrates. The theft
was a deliberate one, and there appears
to have been a good deal of coal-stealing
in the neighbourhood. I see no reason
to interfere with the discretion of the
justices.
LAW AND JUSTICE-IMPRISONMENT
FOR CONTEMPT OF COURT.
MR. THOMAS asked the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, If he
has seen the report in The South Wales
Daily N1ews of the case of a poor woman,
seventy years of age, who has been
imprisoned in Cardiff Gaol for contempt


{COMMONS}


Justice. 8






9 Trade Statistics--The


of court since last April; whether the
case has been reported to the Home
Office; and, whether he will cause full
inquiries to be made into the circum-
stances of the case as to her ability to
obey the order of the court ?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
CIIILDERs): The hon. Member may not
be aware that the Home Secretary
has only a limited jurisdiction over
County Court cases. This case has not
been officially reported to me, and all I
can do is to call the attention of the
County Court Judge to the matter. I
have accordingly given instructions that
a letter should be written to him asking
for his observations on the case.

REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND)
ACT-REMUNERATION OF POOR
RATE COLLECTORS.
Mi. P. J. O'BRIEN asked the Secre-
tary to the Treasury, WVhether he is
aware that the sum of 15,000 granted
by Parliament for the remuneration of
Poor Rate collectors in Ireland for extra
duties imposed on them under the
Representation of the People Act, 1884,
and the Registration Act, 1885, has
been found to be totally inadequate to
pay for the work so done by these
public servants; whether the Nonagh
Board of Guardians were furnished by
Collectors O'Brien and Carroll for
balance of their bills for this service,
which the guardians considered mode-
.rate, but had no power to pay out of the
Rates; whether he will inquire into
these two cases, which are but samples
of others similar in the several unions
throughout Ireland; and, whether a
further sum willbe provided adequate to
pay off the balance that remains due on
the fair claims of the Irish Poor Rate
collectors for the faithful performance of
imperative and onerous duties; or, if not,
how is the balance to be discharged ?
THE SECRETARY TO TIE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENIY H. FowLEr): The
officials named in the 11th section of
theRegistration (Ireland) Act, 1885, have
been paid at the rate of about 3d. for
each additional name placed on the regis-
ters in 1885-that is, the excess of the
names in 1885 over those in 1884-sub-
ject to certain limitations. There is no
doubt that in some cases, especially
among the poor rate collectors, the offi-
cers were not sufficiently remunerated
for the work done; but the poor rate


collectors were required by the above-
named Act to assist in carrying into
effect the duties imposed upon the clerk
of the Union, and the Local Government
Board have advised Boards of Guardians
that it is competent for them to make
payments to the clerk of the Union,
under the authority of the Parliamentary
Voters Act, 1850, to enable him to pay
poor rate collectors for assistance af-
forded in the preparation of the lists; and
in this manner poor rate collectors in
several Unions in Ireland have received
additional remuneration when theBoards
of Guardians considered that they had
not been sufficiently paid from the Par-
liamentary grant. The Local Govern-
ment Board is aware that the collectors
in Nenagh have addressed the Board of
Guardians on this subject, but has not
seen the particulars of their claims.
*When the Boards of Guardians refer the
matter to them they will advise them to
the above effect.

HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE (IRELAND)-
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION--JUDGES
LAWSON AND O'BRIEN.
Mn. CHANCE asked the Chief Secre-
tary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
Whether Mr. Justice Lawson and Mr.
Justice O'Brien, now members of the
Queen's Bench Division of the High
Court of Justice in Ireland, were
formerly Judges of other Divisions of
the High Court; does the said Division
possess an almost exclusive jurisdiction
in matters of criminal appeal; what
were the circumstances under which
such transfers were made; and, what
special qualifications possessed by Mr.
Justice Lawson and Mr. Justice O'Brien
rendered their transfer to the Queen's
Bench Division desirable ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr.'JoHN
MORLEY): The two appointments re-
ferred to were made on the recommen-
dation of the then Lord Lieutenant, with
the concurrence of the Lord Chancellor of
the day, as the arrangement, in their
judgment, most suitable in the circum-
stances.

TRADE STATISTICS-THE TRADE OF
IRELAND.
Mn. BADEN-POWELL asked the
President of the Board of Trade, Whe-
ther, with the aid of the Excise and
Customs officials, and with the co-opera-
tion of private firms and companies, he


IMAMCHcr 5, 1886)


Trad of Ireland. 10







11 Contagious Diseases


can obtain an approximate Return of
the values and quantities of the prin-
cipal articles sent annually from Eng-
land to Ireland, and from Ireland to
England, and also exported and im-
ported annually between Ireland and
Foreign Countries and British Posses-
sions ?
THE PRESIDENT (Mr. MTUNDELLA) :
The trade of Ireland has been hitherto
treated as part of the internal trade of
the Kingdom; and consequently no dis-
tinct figures, showing the aggregate of
that trade as distinguished from the rest
of it, have been given. The total value
of the exports and imports in the direct
trade between Ireland and foreign
countries will be found in the trade
accounts, with particulars of principal
articles at one or two ports. I will see
whether the figures cannot be brought
together, so as to be shown as a whole.
As regards the trade between Great
Britain and Ireland I have consulted the
Customs authorities; and they tell me
that the information asked for could not
be procured officially and accurately
without considerable increase of expense
as well as much delay and inconvenience
to trade, and that an alteration of the
law would be necessary for the purpose.
The Returns would be very interesting
and valuable, and I should be very glad
to give them if, on inquiry, Ifind it could
be done without interfering too seriously
with trade; but I fear that an approxi-
mate Return obtained in the way the
hon. Member suggests would not be
sufficiently accurate or trustworthy to be
made the basis of official statistics.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND)-VOLUN-
TARY SCHOOLS.
SixARCHIBALD CAMPBELL asked
the Secretary for Scotland, How it is in-
tended that the grievances of the mana-
gers of the voluntary schools in Scotland
shall be considered; and, whether the
Order of Reference to the Royal Commis-
sion now inquiring into the operations
of the English Education Acts may be
enlarged, so as to admit of such griev-
ances being received and considered by
the Commissioners ?
THE SECRETARY roR SCOTLAND
(Mr. TREVELYAN) : In answer to the hon.
and gallant Member, I may say I am
not prepared to assent to the statement
that the managers of voluntary schools
in Scotland suffer from any grievance,
.fr. Baden-Powell


and the Department have received no
statement bearing upon any such griev-
ance. I have had some conversation
-with the hon. and gallant Gentleman,
and I shall be glad to have more; but
he will remember that the conversation
did not go beyond the general structure
of the Act. As I stated to the House
last night, the Order of Reference to the
Royal Commission is not likely to be ex-
tended, nor is it desirable that it should
be extended, to Scotland.
CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACT
-PLEURO-PNEUMONIA.
MR. DUCKHAM asked the Chancellor
of the Duchy of Lancaster, Whether he is
aware that during the past year several
of the outbreaks of pleuro-pneumonia in
Great Britain have been traced to Irish
cattle, and that it has seriously depre-
ciated their value in the markets of Great
Britain; that asformany months past the
disease in Ireland has been confined to
Dublin and a limited area around that
city, whether he will, in the interests of
the stock owners of Ireland and Great
Britain, press upon the Privy Council
of Ireland the desirability of rigidly en-
forcing the provisions of the Contagious
Diseases (Animals) Act of 1878 ; and, in
order that the United Kingdom may be
free from a disease which has imposed
such serious national losses for so
many years past, whether he will also
press the same upon the local authorities
in Great Britain ?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY
(Mr. HENEAQE): During 1885 several
Reports were received from Inspectors
of Local Authorities of outbreaks of
pleuro-pneumonia in Great Britain,
which were attributed to the introduc-
tion of Irish cattle. In every case
where it appeared on inquiry that the
animals had been recently landed, the
attention of the Irish Government was
called to the circumstance, in order that
the animals might be traced to their
origin. I must, however, remind my
hon. Friend that in a large proportion
of the cases reported the animals had
been a long time in this country before
the disease was detected among them,
and in those cases it was impossible to
come to any conclusion as to whether or
not the animals were infected before
leaving Ireland. The Privy Council
are in frequent communication with
the Irish Privy Council on the subject,


(Jnimazls) Act. 12


{COMMONS}







Small Arms Factory. 14


and arc satisfied that they are fully
alive to the importance of dealing
with this disease. I would only further
remark that the disease is not spread by
the movement of obviously diseased ani-
mals, but by the movement of animals
which have been herded with diseased
ones, and the Act of 1878 only provides
for the compulsory slaughter of diseased
animals. Whenever it appears that
Local Authorities are not acting with
the necessary stringency, the Privy
Council invariably urge them to adopt
measures for the purpose of stamping
out the disease.
MR. DUCKHAM: I beg to give
Notice that I shall take the earliest op-
portunity of moving that the Act be so
amended.

ARMY-REWVARDS FOR DISTIN-
GUISHED SERVICES.
Mn. T. H. BOLTON asked the Se-
cretary of State for War, Whether the
reward for distinguished or meritorious
service, under the Royal Warrant of
1884, is reserved for officers above a
certain rank; and, if so, on what grounds
this practice has been established?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN) : Officers of all
ranks are eligible for rewards for dis-
tinguished or meritorious service; but
as length of service necessarily forms a
factor in determining claims, it follows
that officers in the higher ranks are
most frequently selected. A proportion
of the grant is specially reserved for
quartermasters. I may add that no
change has been recently made in the
rules which are observed in the selec-
tion of.officers.

THE HOUSE OF COMMONS-ACCOMMO-
DATION FOR MEMBERS.
Mn. PYNE asked the First Commis-
sioner of Works, Whether he would in-
crease the number of lockers to the
number of Members of the House?
Mn. MITCHELL HENRY asked,
whether the First Commissioner of
Works would use his best endeavours
to bring about a near approximation of
the number of seats in the House to the
number of Members ?
TinE LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr.
LEVESON GOWER) (who replied) said: In
consequence of a representation from the
Sergeant-at-Arms, the Office of Works


brought the subject of providing 40 ad-
ditional lockers under the consideration
of the Treasury, but were informed by
the Lords of the Treasury that they were
not prepared at present to sanction the
expenditure, estimated at 250. The
hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Mitchell
Henry) has entered into a rather wider
question than that of lockers, and per-
haps he will give Notice.
Mn. T. M. HEALY asked the hon.
Gentleman whether he would convey to
the Treasury the information that if the
Treasury did not conform to the wishes
of the House the House would make it
rather warm for the Treasury ?

ARMY-SUPPLY OF MARTINI-HENRY
RIFLES.
VISCOUNT FOLKESTONE asked the
Secretary of State for War, How many
Martini-Henry rifles there are in store
in the United Kingdom at the present
moment; and, whether the re-arming of
the Forces at Home and in India with
the new rifle arranged for by the late
Government is entirely suspended; and,
if not, how many of these arms it is
proposed to turn out at the Enfiold Royal
Small Arms Factory during the coming
year?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN) : I do not think
that it would be for the good of
the Public Service that I should give
the information asked for in the first
part of the noble Lord's Question.
As regards the new rifle, there is no in-
tention of suspending its manufacture.
It will be more convenient if I state the
arrangements which are to be made
when I move the Estimates.

ARMY-ENFIELD SMALL ARMS FAC-
TORY-DISCHARGE OF WORKMEN.
Sin HENRY TYLER asked the
Secretary of State for War, Whether,
having regard to the present condition
of trade and manufacture, he will cause
the order to discharge 800 workmen
from the Enfield Small Arms Factory,
on the 1st April, to be reconsidered,
and ascertain if the services of some or
all of those workmen could be usefully
retained for a longer period ?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN) : The order in
question was issued as a warning to the
workmen of a reduction which then


13 _4rny--EEnel


JMAhcii 5, 18861







15 -Disjualfficationf


seemed probable; but I am glad to say
that our final arrangements are so made
that I hope any abrupt dismissal on a
large scale will be avoided.
SmI HENRY TYLER: Will that
apply to other establishments of the
War Department?
MR. CAMPBELL BANNERMAN:
That order was not issued at other
establishments.
VISCOUNT FOLKESTONE: Could the
right hon. Gentleman say whether he
anticipates having to reduce the number
of workmen in the Enfield Small Arms
Factory ?
MR. CAMPBELL- BANNERMAN:
There is no certainty on that subject;
but I can promise that every possible
care will be taken that it shall not be
abrupt or inconvenient to the workmen,
or involve unnecessary hardship.

BOARD OF WORKS (IRELAND)-LOAN
TO THE WEST CLARE RAILWAY
COMPANY.
MR. COX asked the Secretary to the
Treasury, If his attention has been
directed to the following Resolution
adopted by the County Clare Grand
Jury:-
"Resolved, That the Grand Jury, in the in-
terest of the ratepayers, regret very much the
delay that has taken place in the withholding
of the loan of 50,000 by the Treasury towards
the making of the West Clare Railway, and
most earnestly urge that the Board of Works
will take the necessary steps to facilitate the
loan to enable the contractor to complete the
line, and which loan has been practically sano-
tioned by the Treasury for a considerable time.
Every requirement of the Board of Works has
been complied with, and their inspector satisfied
with the work executed. The ratepayers are
enduring great hardships in having to pay the
whole interest on the money expended, amount-
ing to 1,600, as the Treasury does not become
contributory until the completion of the line;
and, in consequence of the contractor, from
want of funds, having had to nearly cease work,
and much distress amongst the labourers of the
district has resulted, we consider the matter
should meet no further delay;"
and, whether he will hasten the com-
pletion of the loan, as recently pro.
mised ?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER): My
attention has been called to the Reso-
lution referred to. I cannot admit that
the wording of the Resolution accurately
represents the position of the Treasury
with regard to the loan applied for by
the West Clare Railway. The conditions
.rh. Campbell-Bannerman


laid down by the Treasury for the ad-
vance of the loan have not yet been en-
tirely satisfied; but everything that we
can do shall be done to hasten the settle-
ment of the matter.
THE ROYAL L1VER SOCIETY-REPORT
OF THE INSPECTOR.
DR. CLARK asked the Secretary to
the Treasury, If, considering that the
Royal Liver Friendly Society has an
annual income of about 400,000, and
nearly a million of members, he will
lay upon the Table of the House the
Report of the Inspector, the honourable
E. Lyulph Stanley, to the Registrar of
Friendly Societies, on the condition of
the Royal Liver Society?
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER): I
shall have no objection to lay the Re-
port on the Table if the hon. Member
will move for it.
METROPOLIS-PUBLIC MEETINGS.
SmI HENRY TYLER asked the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department,
Whether, having regard to recent occur-
rences, he will now adopt measures for
prohibiting in future public meetings
from taking place in Trafalgar Square
or other similar places, and confining
such meetings, under proper restrictions,
to certain parks or open spaces to be
specified; and, whether he will issue
instructions that an adequate force of
mounted police shall always be on duty
and in readiness on such occasions ?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
CHILDERS): No, Sir; I am not at pre-
sent prepared to issue any general order
as to the places and the manner of hold-
ing public meetings. The policy to be
followed in each case must be guided by
the circumstances of that case. The
question of the employment of mounted
police on these occasions is now engaging
my attention, its importance having been
urged by the recent Committee of In-
quiry.
DISQUALIFICATION OF VOTERS-THE
LABOUR TEST.
MR. BIGWOOD asked the President
of the Local Government Board, Whe-
ther those who, as a test of their willing-
ness to work, seek and obtain employ-
ment and pay from the relieving officers
in the labour yards of the various boards
of guardians will be disfranchised for


of Voters.


{COMMONS}







Outrage (Ireland). 18


so doing; and, if so, whether steps will
be taken to prevent such disqualification
under the present exceptional circum-
stances?
THE SECRETARY (Mr. JESSE COL-
LINGS): The task of work which is re-
quired by Boards of Guardians in the
case of able-bodied persons applying for
relief is intended as a test of destitu-
tion. The Guardians do not pay for the
work, but give such relief in the cases
in which the test is imposed as the cir-
cumstances may require. Relief by the
Guardians where the persons are set to
work is attended with the usual statu-
tory disqualification, and this disquali-
fication could only be removed by legis-
lation. Where the circumstances admit
of it, we think it very desirable, having
regard to the present distress in certain
districts, thattheLocalAuthorities should
expedite the commencement of works
which are contemplated by them; and
that in the employment of labour they
should act in concert with the Guar-
dians. If the works are undertaken
without the intervention of contractors,
the officers of the Guardians might refer
to the Local Authority for employment
the persons who appeared to be most
deserving of such assistance, and per-
sons so employed would be saved from
the disqualification which attaches to
relief from the rates. There should, of
course, be strict supervision of the men
employed, such as would be the case on
the part of a person who contracted for
the work. The wages should probably
be less than the usual rate, and the ac-
ceptance of the work would then be a
proof of need, and it would afford no
inducement to continue the employment
when other opportunity of obtaining
work offered. It is intended by the
.Board to press upon the Local Autho-
rities the adoption of such arrange-
ments as those where exceptional dis-
tress prevails.
CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS-THE
PUBLIC PROSECUTOR.
Mn. PICTON asked the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, Whe-
ther his attention has been called to a
case proceeding at the Marylebone
Police Court, in which a woman is ac-
cused of having procured two girls, aged
twelve and thirteen, for immoral pur-
poses; and, whether he will instruct the
Public Prosecutor to take care that any


male persons who may be implicated
shall not escape without being brought
to trial?
THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr.
CHILDERS): My hon. Friend may rest
assured that this case is being most care-
fully watched, and that no efforts will
be spared on my part to bring to justice
any persons who may be implicated in
the committal of the alleged offences.
But the case is still sub judice, and it
would be premature for me to take any
action at present.
LAW AND POLICE-COST OF THE
POLICE FORCE.
Mn. JAMES STUART gave Notice
that he would ask the Home Secretary,
Whether his attention had been called
to the fact that by a recent Return
as to the cost of police in 262 pro-
vincial boroughs, it was shown that the
average cost was equivalent to a pound-
age of 5jd. on the rateable value, of
which 2d. was borne by the Consoli-
dated Fund, and 3-d. by the local rates;
whether the cost of the police in the
Metropolis, exclusive of the City, was
equal to 9d. in the pound on the rateable
value, of which 4d. was borne by the
Consolidated Fund and 5d. by the rates;
and, whether the right hon. Gentleman
would direct the Committee which was
to inquire into the organization and ad-
ministration of the Metropolitan Police
to inquire into the causes of the great
excess of the cost of the police in the
Metropolis over other large centres of
population.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr.
CHILDEES): If my hon. Friend will
speak to me I shall be happy to give
him the Returns.
MR. DWYER GRAY: Will the same
apply to Dublin ?
Mn. CHILDERS: That is a question
for the Irish Government to determine.
I have nothing to do with the Irish
police.
CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-
MURDER OF PATRICK FINLAY, AT
WOODFORD, CO. GALWAY.
MR. MACARTNEY asked the Chief
Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
land, Whether a man named Patrick
Finlay was shot dead on Wednesday at
Woodford, county Galway; whether he
had been boycotted for several months
for having paid his rent to Mr. Lewis,


I MARcu 5, 18 8 6


17 Crime and







19 Representative


of Ballynakill, county Galway, whose
house was blown up in December last;
and, whether he had been afforded police
protection ?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JonI
MORLEY): PatrickFinlay, process server,
was shot dead at Derrycraig Wood, near
Woodford, in county Galway, on Wed-
nesday, the 3rd instant. Finlay, I am in-
formed, had been obnoxious since the
middle of December last, in consequence
of having served processes on Sir Henry
Burke's property, and also on the pro-
perty of Mr. Lewis, whose house was
attempted to be blown up in December
last. Since the 26th of that month
Finlay had been constantly watched by
the police, and an escort accompanied
him when leaving his residence; but on
the day of his murder he evaded the
vigilance of the police by leaving his
house unobserved through the back door
in order to proceed to a wood to cut
timber for firewood, and in the wood he
was afterwards found murdered.
Mn. GILL: I should like to ask, Sir,
whether there are not circumstances
mentioned in to-day's London papers
which would suggest that the death was
accidental ?
CAPTAIN M'CALMONT : And I should
like to ask the right hon. Gentleman
whether there are not circumstances
which show the connection between this
"death" and the National League ?
[No reply.]

CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)-
"BOYCOTTING" THE NATIONAL
LEAGUE.
MR. MACARTNEY asked the Chief
Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
land, Whether his attention has been
drawn to a report in The Roscommon
Herald, of 27th February 1886, of the
proceedings of the Longford Branch of
the Irish National League, in which Mr.
Wilson, the Vice-President,i i reported
as follows:-
The League is averse to public or open boy-
cotting, I' believe, and they want country
branches to do things quietly till we see what
Parliament will do for us, and hence we are
admonished to be as little aggressive as we pos-
sibly can for a time; "
and,-if so, whether the Government in-
tend to take any steps to protect the
public against the less aggressive form
of Boycotting indicated in this state-
ment ?
Mr2. Macartney


THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN
MORLEY) : The hon. Member will excuse
me, but I do not quite see the object of
this Question. Surely the less aggres-
sive "Boycotting" is, the better; but the
hon. Member may rest assured that
whenever there is evidence to sustain a
prosecution for a breach of the law in
respect of intimidation the law will be
put in motion. I do not take the hon.
Member as regarding the present as a
specific instance of "Boycotting."

ORDERS OF THE DA Y.
-5-
SUPPLY.-COMMITTEE.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair."
REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT.
RESOLUTION.
MR. LABOUCHERE, in rising to
move the following Resolution:-
That, in the opinion of this House, it is in-
consistent with the principles of Representative
Government, that any Member of either House
of the Legislature should derive his title to
legislate by virtue of hereditary descent,"
said, that the Prime Minister had lately
described himself as an old Parliamen-
tary hand;" and, though he himself
would not have ventured to speak in such
terms of the right hon. Gentleman, it
was obviously the doing of one who
thoroughly understood Parliamentary
tactics that Motions such as the present
were arranged to come on upon Fridays.
By this arrangement Members were
asked not to vote according to their opi-
nions ; but it was asked that all those
who wished the government of the
country to be properly carried on should
vote against any Motion standing on the
Paper on these occasions and in favour
of going into Supply. He maintained
that if this were insisted on, and if hon.
Members were to be told that whatever
was the grievance brought forward, and
however strongly they might think on
the subject, as a matter of fidelity to the
Government, they were to vote against
it, discussion would be an end. He
trusted, therefore, that the Prime Minis-
ter would allow them to vote upon this
Motion according to its merits, and he
hoped that this would extend to the
occupants of the Treasury Bench. He


{COMMONS}


Government. 20







21 'Representative


was sure that many of them entirely
agreed with the Motion which he had
brought forward, and he had no doubt
that they had been delighted when they
saw that he had put it down, and that
they were most anxious and eager to
vote in favour of it. At the last Gene-
ral Election they had had an authorized
programme and an unauthorized official
programme. The unauthorized pro-
gramme went somewhat further than
the authorized one; but it seemed to be
in accordance with the wishes, opinions,
and views of that House, since it had
been upon an item of the unauthorized
programme that the late change of
Ministry had taken place a few weeks
ago. Besides these, the people had a
programme of their own. It was ex-
pected that the Government would
shortly propose a radical change in
those fundamental laws which regulate
the legislative relations between Eng-
land and Ireland, which hen. Members
opposite regarded as the very basis of
the Constitution. But they had a
grievance on this side of the Channel as
well as the Irish, and that grievance
affected the Irish as much as it affected
themselves. They desired to repeal any
species of union between the elective
legislator and the hereditary legislators,
and both in Ireland and England they
asked that that union should be treated
as they would treat the Castle in Ire-
land. Last year they had passed a Re-
form Act. Some time before that Lord
Beaconsfield, in speaking of the House
of Lords, had said that it practically
represented 26,000,000 of population in
this country who had not votes. No
Conservative would raise that argument
at present. They had taken away that
electorate from the House of Lords,
and the decisions of the House of Com-
mons were now, to all intents and pur-
poses, the decisions of the whole coun-
try. Such an argument was only pos-
sible when representative government
was a mere sham. The country was now
becoming democratic, and hereditary
legislators were an anachronism in a
democracy. There were Liberals, per-
haps, who thought differently. The
term Liberal" was at present a some-
what vague one; and, for his own part,
he did not profess quite to know what
a Liberal was. He himself was a Radi-
cal, and consequently he knew what
Radicals were. Owing to the indepen-


dence and frankness of their nature,
Radicals sometimes differed upon small
points; but they were entirely united in
this opinion-that all legislative rights
should spring from the people, and they
all objected to the existence of any
hereditary Legislature in this country.
If any hon. Gentleman told him he was
a Radical and took an opposite view, he
would say to that Gentleman, with the
utmost respect, that he regarded him
as a humbug. If such an hon. Gentle-
man was under the impression that he
carried his constituency with him in op-
position to the Motion which was now
brought forward, he would recommend
him to consult his constituency. He
thought that there had notbeenoneRadi-
cal or Liberalmeeting duringthe whole of
the last Election campaign at which
this Resolution would not have been
carried almost unanimously; and if any
Gentleman questioned that-he referred
to Gentlemen on his own side of the
House-let him call a meeting of his
constituents, and let him decide by
what they thought. He was himself in
favour of a single Chamber; but his
Motion did not go so far as that, and the
House was not asked to give an opinion
upon that point. Perhaps the House
had not made up its mind whether there
ought to be one Chamber or two. It
was true, however, that they had the
highest authority--he was speaking of
hen. Members opposite-for the exist-
ence of a single Chamber. Lord
Beaconsfield himself had said that no-
body wanted a second Chamber, except
a few disreputable individuals, and that
it was a valuable institution for any
Member who had neither distinction nor
character nor talents.[ Cries of" 'Where?"]
Well, it was in one of Lord Beacons-
field's early works, and he never clearly
gathered that his Lordship had altered
his opinion. The hon. and gallant
Member for Buckinghamshire (Captain
Verney) had put down an Amendment
to this Motion. He confessed he could
not quite make out what that Amend-
ment meant; but, so far as he could
understand it, it seemed to imply that
the second Chamber was an evil, but
a necessary evil, and that they should
be satisfied with the evils which they
had, and should not fly to others that
they knew not of-in fact, that they
might go further and fare worse. But,
in his own opinion, the House of Lords


IMAncii 5, 18861


Government. 22







23 R epresentative


was not quite so innocuous. It was
powerless for good, but it was powerful
for evil, as he trusted he would be able
to show them. Up to 1832 the aristo-
cracyhad been paramount in this country
not only in the House of Lords, but in
the Executive and in the House of Com-
mons. In 1797 a Petition had been
presented to that House, representing
that 306 Members were almost entirely
returned either by noblemen or borough-
mongers who wanted to become noble-
men. Since 1832 popular government
had advanced by leaps and bounds, and
there was now a permanent antagonism
between that House and the other
House. In these two Houses they had
two antagonistic principles, which could
no more unite together than oil and
water. Who was the first Peer in ordi-
nary cases ? He did not wish to make
personal remarks, but they knew very
well that the first Peer had very often
been a borough-monger, or a person
who had done some service, or a Court
favourite. The other day he had asked
the Secretary to the Treasury a Question
with regard to the services of the an-
cestors of one Peer. The hon. Gentle-
man had evaded the Question, and had
asked him to go back to sixteen hundred
and something to find out what they
were. He had before maintained that
because a man had been clever and had
gained a Peerage it did not follow that
his son was clever too. The Prime
Minister had once contested that pro-
position, and cited the case of the two
Yorkes, father and son, who had been
Lord Chancellors; but the right hon.
Gentleman had forgotten to mention
that the second of them felt so strongly
that he was not fit for the position that
he had blown out his brains as soon as
he had gained the appointment. Peers,
like humbler individuals, had mothers
as well as fathers. They did not spring
from the heads of their fathers, as
Minerva had sprung from the head of
Jove; and, in fact, mothers had as much
to do with the intellect of the son as
fathers had. Painters, poets, or lawyers
were not hereditary. It was true that
in France there had been hereditary
lawyers; but one of the first things the
Revolution did was to sweep away
hereditarylawyers, as he would havethat
House sweep away hereditary Peers.
If there were to be hereditary legis-
lators they did not adopt the right plan.
Mr. Labouchere


They ought to find the most intelligent
persons in the country, take them when
young, bring them up to be legislators,
and, when they had reached the years
of maturity, marry them to Girton girls,
and then, perhaps, they might get some
sort of result. But when the hereditary
Peers had condescended to be born,
what was their training, and what were
their amusements? Were they such as
were likely to make them efficient legis-
lators ? In the House of Lords there were
Peers connected with the Naval and
Military Services. Now, though, no
doubt, military training made a good
soldier, no one would assert that the
training of a soldier was good for
making a legislator. The Peers lived in
the country and were great Thanes-
bulls of Bashan-great men in a small
locality. When they came to London
for the season they occupied their time
much as most idle men did. He had
never seen in what they did or said any
sign on the part of the great bulk of
Peers of any attempt to educate them-
selves for the duty of legislators. One
would suppose that they would go to the
House of Lords to learn how to legislate.
What was the fact? Hon. Gentlemen
sometimes went themselves to the House
of Lords to look on, and he thought that
the best cure for those who admired the
House of Lords was to go and look at it
when sitting. On great occasions they
flocked up from all parts of the country,
and sat on their Benches like sheep, and
voted like sheep; but, on ordinary occa-
sions, a visitor would find some Peer
making a speech to half-a-dozen others
until the dinner hour approached, when
all present vanished like ghosts. The
mass of Peers did not attend except
when some great division was to take
place. They did not, like Members of
the House of Commons, attend regu-
larly to learn their business. Some
Peers, no doubt, had devoted themselves
to politics. But how were they re-
warded ? We were so exceedingly grate-
ful to them for doing it, that, whenever
their Party came into power, we at once
gave them some Office, and felt proud
of their condescension in taking into
their charge some portion of the affairs
of this great Empire. No doubt, there
were some excellent men in the House
of Lords who were exceptions; there
were men like Lord Salisbury and Lord
Rosebery, who were exceedingly able


{COMMONS}


Government. .24






25 Representative


men; but there were albinos in Africa,
and this fact did not entitle anyone to
describe the Natives of Africa as white
men. They knew that every Member
of this House possessed the greatest
wisdom; but in a former House of
Commons there were some fools, and
they could not say it was a House of
fools because there happened to be
half-a-dozen fools among them. Neither
could they say the House of Lords was
a House of wisdom because it contained
a few able men. The fact was that
their system was this. It was as if they
took a lady's lap-dog and bred it up in a
drawing-room, and then imagined he
would turn out a good sheep-dog. Their
whole system was bad. It was said that
the House of Lords did not entirely
consist of hereditary Peers, and that it
was constantly being recruited from the
cream of the nation. But was that the
fact? Who were the Gentlemen who
were ordinarily made new Peers? Some
of them were politicians, but politicians
who had been bores and nuisances in
this House, and were kicked upstairs.
It was not generally the rule to select
the new Peers from politicians, but to
select Gentlemen who were rich men,
who had inherited large estates, or who
had made large fortunes and bought
large estates. He would take an in-
stance, since it was one of the latest, the
case of Sir Henry Allsopp. He selected
the case of this Gentleman not invidi-
ously, for he believed he was a most
respectable man, but as being a typical
one. This Gentleman brewed beer, and
by so doing he acquired a fortune. No
one could say that he distinguished him-
self very much as a politician. No
doubt, he voted very often for his Party
in the House of Commons, and very
likely he subscribed to the Carlton Club.
As a consequence, Sir Henry Allsopp
was made a Baronet. No one objected
to Sir Henry Allsopp or anybody else
being made a Baronet. It would be
almost cruelty to animals to refuse any-
one a Baronetcy who asked for it. A
Baronetcy pleased the Gentleman him-
self, and was a matter of perfect in-
difference to everyone else, except, per-
haps, his wife. He would as soon think
of refusing a thistle to a hungry and
pleading donkey. But SirHenryAllsopp
was not satisfied with his Baronetcy, and
he was considered worthy of the dignity of
a Peerage. This afforded good cause of


complaint, for it gave him and his de-
scendants the hereditary right of legis-
lating for the country. It was often
said that the House of Lords was retro-
grade. This was scarcely surprising.
What was the first step that Sir Henry
Allsopp took when he had become a
Peer? He wrote to fTHe Times com-
plaining that he had been described as
a brewer, and saying that he had ceased
brewing; and at a bucolic festival which
occurred in the country shortly after-
wards, when his tenants congratulated
him on being made a Peer, some gentle-
men present suggested that LordHindlip
was descended from one of the Plan-
tagenet Kings. He (Mr. Labouchere)
had taken this Gentleman as an in-
stance, and he did not exactly know
whether or not he had a son. An
hon. Member near him said he had a
son in this House. Well, would that
hon. Gentleman, if he survived his
father and went up to the other House,
prove a useful Member of that House in
connection with commerce? Would he
allude to the paternal butt? In all
probability he would think much of his
Plantagenet ancestors, and that the re-
spected vendor of intoxicating liquor,
to whom he owed his title, would be
entirely forgotten. He did ask upon
what principle in the world were they
to assent to Sir Henry Allsopp's son,
grandson, and great-grandson here-
ditarily ruling over them? The House
of Lords consisted entirely of men be-
longing to one class, whereas the boast
of the House of Commons was that in it
every class was represented. Last year
one of the reasons given for reducing
the expenses of elections was that poor
men might come into the House, and
now there were nine working men sitting
on that side of the House. Lord Salis-
bury had said that-
In these days any institution that is sec-
tional in its character, and has not the interest
of the whole community for its object, is neces-
sarily doomed."
Trying the House of Lords by this test,
Lord Salisbury ought, if he considered
the matter, and happened to have a seat
in the House of Commons, to support
this Motion. There were in the Upper
House 402 hereditary Peers. They
owned among them 14,000,000 acres,
producing a rental of 12,000,000, which
was an average of 35,000 acres each, and
an average income of 30,000. A great


JMAncH 5, 18861


Govzernzment. 26







27 Representative


deal had been said about the Irish Land
League; but could anyone conceive a
more pernicious Land League than that
which existed in this country? Of
course, being landlords; they legislated
in the interests of landlords; and, as a
consequence, our Land Laws were the
disgrace and opprobrium of the country.
These Gentlemen beat people off the
land to make way for game; there were
vast tracts of land uncultivated. Even
at death they shirked paying the Death
Duties; the farmers had no fixity of
tenure; and the labourers were almost
starving. Moreover, these Gentlemen
appeared to think that 35,000 acres was
the proper share for a gentleman; but
when starving labourers came forward
and asked for a miserable three acres
and a cow they were treated with con-
tumely. What could be more absurd
than to suppose that any single class,
when they had the power, would legis-
late for any class except themselves ?
They might as well, in an assembly of
cats and mice, imagine the: cats would
legislate in the interests of the mice. It
might be thought that, being so rich,
these noble Lords were personally inde-
pendent. But was this the case? A
more self-seeking body of men did not
exist. ["Oh!"] He would prove it.
There were three Orders of Knighthood
which were conferred without any pre-
tence of merit in the recipients, being
simply given for the purpose of keeping
them sweet, as he might call it, to the
Government. In addition, almost half the
Peers were Privy Councillors, and a large
number of them were Lords Lieutenant.
When a Ministry was turned out, Gentle-
men in the Upper House fought hard for
places with a salary. They were ready
to accept a place in the Government or
at Court, and to perform duties which
Gibbon said the noblest of Roman
Emperors would not have caused the
meanest patrician to do- for him. One
Gentleman got a sum of money for look-
ing after the Queen's dogs, another Gen-
tleman for looking after the Queen's
horses, and a third for looking after the
Queen's footmen. He had been count-
ing up what they received from the
State, and, leaving out of consideration
the sums received by Royal Peers and
Bishops, Members of the House of
Lords annually received out of Govern-
ment funds 338,776. When it was
proposed that Members of the House of
Mr. Labouckere


Commons should be paid, it was said
that this would be degrading, and would
destroy its independence. Yet a very
small sum of division showed that these
hereditary Peers, notwithstanding their
vast wealth, were paid out of the public
Treasury an average of 700 per annum
each for their services. But that was
not all; they had relatives. There was
a very valuable book published annually
-namely, The Financial Reform Alma-
nack. [M3uch laughter.] He could under-
stand that some hon. Members opposite
did not like that publication. It ap-
peared from it that the relatives of
Peers had received from 1855 up to the
present date 120,000,000 sterling. As
some slight mistake might have been
made in the calculation, he would de-
duct 20,000,000 from the total. Surely
100,000,000 was a very considerable
sum for some 400 or 500 families to
have received from the Exchequer in 30
years. It appeared that each Duke
had, since 1855, had 56 relatives living
upon the public Exchequer. It might
be asked why not, on the ground that
these relatives were just as good as
other people; but it must be remem-
bered that other people also wanted to
live. In 1873, the present Prime Mi-
nister stated that there were multitudes
of competent men who would gladly
take the places of the worst paid public
servants. Lord Palmerston used to say,
" The best man for a place is the man I
like best; and so, apparently, thought
the Peers. Last year the House of
Commons passed a Corrupt Practices
Act. He regretted that its scope had
not been extended, so as to include the
cases of corrupt practices occurring in
the other House. Hereditary legislators
possessing hereditary votes seemed to
consider that they had a perfect right
to take them to the best market. An
ideal Upper Chamber would be above
all partizanship, and would hold the
balance equally between the Parties in
the Lower Chamber. Did the House of
Lords perform any such office? ["No!"]
There was no more partizan Assembly
in the country. The air of the House
of Lords was too foul and stagnant for
Radicals to live in it. There was no Radi-
cal there; even Liberalism drooped in
that House. The Upper House was an As-
semblyof Conservative partizans. There-
fore, when the Conservatives were in
power the House of Lords was per-


I ICOMMONSI


Governmenlt. 28






29 Representative


fectly useless, because they concurred, as
a matter of course, in everything pro-
posed by the Tory Government. But
when the Liberals .were in power the
success of their measures depended
upon the goodwill of the Conservative
Leaders in the Upper House. At the
beginning of the last Parliament a Bill
was brought in by a Liberal Prime
Minister enjoying the confidence of the
country for the purpose of providing
compensation for disturbance in Ireland.
The Government held that the Bill was
necessary in order to enable men to rule
justly in Ireland, and yet the Bill was
thrown out by the House of Lords.
Remembering that fact, he laid every
outrage that had been committed in
Ireland since that period at the door of
the other House. Of the measure in
question the Prime Minister had said-
"It was an Act which would have averted
by far the greater part of the dangers and diffi-
culties that have arisen. The House of Lords
had committed one of the most deplorable errors
of judgment which ever misled or bewildered a
public Assembly."
Then the House would remember that
later in the existence of the late Liberal
Government a Franchise Bill passed
through the House, and that the House
of Lords consequently refused to pass it.
The Conservatives in the country were
apparently opposed to it. What fol-
lowed? There was an Autumn Session,
and the Prime Minister had to go hat in
hand to the Leader of the Conservative
Party and make terms with him, the
Conservatives being at that time in a mi-
nority in the House of Commons. It
would be remembered that when Amend-
ments were afterwards proposed by a
Liberal Member, the reply in many in-
stances that came from the Ministerial
Bench was that such Amendments, al-
though not objectionable in themselves,
could not be acceded to by the Govern-
ment, because they were not within the
scope of the bargain made between the
Leaders of the two Parties. That was
an instance of the way in which the
Upper House acted as a Tory Caucus.
Now, was not such a state of things ex-
tremely humiliating? He could under-
stand that Conservatives wished to per-
petuate such a state of things; but he
was surprised that there should be Gen-
tlemen on his side of the House who also
wished to perpetuate it. He could only
suppose that they were afraid of their


own principles; that after professing
those principles on the hustings, in order
to secure their return to Parliament,
they were exceedingly grateful when
they found that the action of the House
of Lords was likely to prevent the em-
bodiment of those principles in legisla-
tion. What was the spirit that animated
the House of Lords ? Lord Hertford,
who had all the attributes of an average
Peer, had lately stated that the speeches
of Mr. Chamberlain and others belong-
ing to that right hon. Gentleman's Party
were incentives to disorder and riot, and
that the Attorney General had delivered
revolutionary speeches; and the noble
Lord asked whether it was not a strange
thing to put a man in the position of
Under Secretary for Home Affairs who
at onetime was under police surveillance?
He added that he supposed we might
soon see a notorious burglar, like Peace,
supersede Sir Edmund Henderson at the
head of the police, and went on to say-
It behoved them all to do their best to
spread loyal and Conservative principles, so that
when the time came they might get rid of the
Socialistic, Republican, Radical Government,
and put in its place one containing men like
Lord Salisbury and other noted Conservatives."
The spirit disclosed in the remarks of
Lord Hertford animated nearly the
whole of the House of Lords, and it
was high time that Liberals should pro-
claim that they would not be coerced
and bullied any longer. Now, what
was theposition of affairs? The Prime
Minister had recently returned to power
with a large majority from England,
Scotland, Wales, and Ireland; and it
.was his intention to produce on the 1st
of April-[Mr. GLADSTONE dissented]-
well, some time in the month of April,
a scheme which he had not yet revealed,
but which in all probability would be a
scheme of Home Rule for Ireland. Lord
Salisbury, however, had declared that if
such a scheme were proposed the House
of Lords would fulfil their duty and re-
ject it. Lord Salisbury thus claimed
the right to veto any measure passed in
the House of Commons, and to provoke
a Dissolution at his pleasure. He held
that that would be an outrageous right
to grant to anybody; but Lord Salisbury
was the very last man who ought to
possess such power, because he was the
candidate for the Premiership at the last
General Election, and the country had
declared that it had no confidence in


JMIARciar 5, 18861


Government. 30







31 Bepresentativ3


him. That he should be able to prevent
the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord
of the Treasury from carrying out the
policy which he held to be desirable
would be most monstrous. Liberals, it
appeared, could only hope that they
would be able to bribe the other House
into agreeing to the wishes of the House
of Commons. Much was sometimes heard
about the integrity of the Empire; but
he had observed lately that the rights
and property of landlords were also
much talked about, and it was possible
that the House of Peers would allow the
integrity of the Empire to drop out of
sight if clauses were inserted in the con-
templated legislation for the purpose of
giving to the landlords far more than
they had any right to expect. When
Liberal reforms were proposed in the
House of Commons, were Liberals al-
ways to be threatened with a Dissolu-
tion, and to be forced to bribe or coerce
a privileged class into agreement ? Lord
Beaconsfield once stated that the legis-
lation of the future would be in the
direction of weakening the great landed
class in the Constitution. He could only
hope devoutly that it would. It seemed
to him that, in accordance with that
sound principle, they ought not to main-
tain the existence of an hereditary class
of landlords, who openly avowed that
they were there in order to prevent the
House of Commons doing that which
was for the benefit of the country. Even
in Liberal Cabinets the baneful influ-
ence of the House of Lords was felt. In
the last Cabinet there were, perhaps, not
quite so many Peers as usual; but al-
most every Member of that Cabinet was
a relative of a Peer. The only two who
were not were the right hon. Gentleman
the late Home Secretary (SirR. Assheton
Cross), and the right hon. Gentleman
the late Minister for War (Mr. W. H.
Smith). And what did the aristocracy
say of them ? They contemptuously ad-
mitted them, and said-" We will admit
Marshall and Snelgrove." In the pre-
sent Cabinet, too, there were a good
many Peers, and two Members of the
Government outside the Cabinet were
Peers. There were two objections to
that. One was that a Peer, when he
was a Member of the great Executive
Council of the Nation, must have very
great influence; and, as a rule, Peers
were not so liberal as Members of the
House of Commons. Therefore, that
Mr. Labouchere


was a bad thing. But a stronger ob-
jection was that the great Offices of
State ought to be represented by their
heads in the House of Commons. No
doubt their subordinates were very ex-
cellent and intelligent Gentlemen; but
he had always observed that when a
question was asked of any one of them,
they said that the noble Lord at the head
of the Office had said so and so. If the
House of Commons did represent the
country, the heads of the great spending
Departments should sit in that House.
The evils of the House of Lords were
obvious. Almost every other institution
in 'the world had some counterbalancing
advantage; but the House of Lords was
the only Assembly that he ever knew of
that had absolutely no counterbalancing
advantage. The Peers might be very ex-
cellent men, but being in the other House
they might as well live in the planet
Saturn. Lord Salisbury had said that
the abolition of the House of Lords
would lead to the establishment of tri-
ennial Parliaments. His reply to that
was that he wished there were now tri-
ennial Parliaments, as they would be a
very good thing. He thought they could
not too often consult the electors. But
they were also told that the House of
Lords saved the country from hasty and
precipitate legislation. When did they
ever do that? For an instance of that
they would have to go back to the last
century, when the House of Lords threw
out Fox's East India Bill. It was per-
fectly true that that was an act on their
part to which the constituencies of the
country agreed; but it must be remem-
bered that the majority in the House of
Commons at that time bore the reflex of
the aristocracy, and the constituencies
did not represent the people. Was it
humanly probable that the Members of
the House of Commons, elected by the
country as their Representatives, would
deliberately say-" We will act in such
a manner that the country will not ap-
prove of us ? Members of that House
were far more likely to know the will of
the people, and to act according to it,
than the House of Lords, who did not
and could not know it, and lived far
away up in the moon. When once a
Bill had passed the House of Commons,
it was perfectly certain to become the
law of the land, no matter what the
House of Lords did. The people had
invariably stood by their own Represen-


{COMMONS}


Government. 32






33 Repre8entatlve


tatives, and when the House of Lords
had appealed against the House of Com-
mons it had been proved by the result
that the House of Lords had been in the
wrong and the House of Commons in the
right. It was absurd to talk about the
House of Commons being precipitate.
Precipitate! Why, it was the longest-
winded Assembly in the world. It was
very seldom, however, that the Lords
threw out Bills. They were a very great
deal too astute; they mutilated and
marred Bills, or, rather, they did that
when the Liberals were in power, but
when the Tories came into power they
introduced a Bill containing the very
same provisions. He would give two
instances of that. In 1868 a Bill was
introduced in the House of Commons
and passed, which did something to-
wards doing away with the unhealthy
dwellings of the artizans; but the House
of Lords struck out all the clauses re-
lating to unhealthy dwellings. Seven
years later, when the right hon. Gentle-
man opposite was Home Secretary, he
brought in a Bill replacing those very
clauses which had been struck out of the
Bill of 1868 when the Liberals were in
power. He did not think he was ex-
aggerating in saying that the right hen.
Gentleman had frequently boasted of that
Act to the country as a proof of what he
and the Conservatives did for the work-
ing classes. Again, in the Criminal Law
Amendment Act, 1871, the House of
Lords inserted clauses against picketing;
and yet in 1875 they brought in a Bill
doing away with those very clauses. He
asked hon. Gentlemen opposite to show
him one single useful act the House of
Lords had done during its whole career.
Their action had been one consistent war
against all reform, municipal and Par-
liamentary, against all the sound doc-
trines of political economy and commerce
and religious equality. Their mission
had been to obstruct, and mar, and mu-
tilate every sound Bill that had passed
the House of Commons. He did not
say that they were worse than other aris-
tocracies. He did not say that they were
worse, even, than other men. He had
no doubt that if any other class was
given such honour that class would
legislate for itself. He even believed
that the purest and best of men-he al-
luded to journalists-would do the same.
They were told that it would be impos-
sible Constitutionally to abolish the Here-
ditary Legislature. Lord Salisbury,
VOL. COCIII. [THIRD SERIES.]


speaking a day or two ago, had said
that the abolition of the House of Lords
could only be achieved by violent and
revolutionary means; and then this de-
fender of the Constitution went on to
state that if this inevitable struggle took
place the House of Lords should not
have to rely upon the high sanction of
Constitutional authority, but should have
just a taste of physical force in the back-
ground as well. The late Secretary for
India (Lord Randolph Churchill) had
also said in Ireland that there would be
a taste of physical force even if Lords
and Commons passed a certain law. But
why could not the House of Lords be
ended Constitutionally ? Nothing could
be more simple than to create 300 Peers
and swamp the present House. He
really believed there was such patriotism
on the Benches on which he sat that he
could find 300 Gentlemen upon them
who would ascend the political altar of
their country and sacrifice themselves
in that way. But if there was to be a
struggle between the House of Lords in-
sisting on maintaining their present
position, and the vast majority of the
people of this country, with their Re-
presentatives, insisting on an alteration
being made, physical force would not be
of any great avail, even if Lord Salisbury
led it. An hon. Gentleman had put down
an Amendment to his Motion, to the
effect that he wished the House of Lords
should be reformed in accordance with
the principles already recognized in the
constitution of that House. But he would
point out to the House that he was not
asking them to decide between the sys-
tem of one Chamber and another; but
he wanted to reform the House of Lords,
not in accordance with the principles al-
ready recognized, but in accordance with
the principles recognized by every sane
and sensible man outside the House of
Lords. The reform that he wished for
was that the hereditary legislators should
disappear. The lines of demarcation be-
tween Parties were very artificial at this
time. What united the Liberal Party
was a personal tie to the Prime Minister.
They were faithful to the Prime Minister
owing to the great services he had per-
formed for the Liberal Party. He be-
lieved that the only men in that House
who really knew their own minds were
the Radicals. After the Reform Bill of
last year they were landed in a De-
mocracy, and Democrat and Radical
were convertible terms. Democracy re-


(hMAncHI 5, 18861


Government. 34








cognized no class distinctions, no here- great experience or services-the Earl of
ditary legislators; and Democrats re- Durham-to take the chair for him, he
garded a Hereditary Legislature as an pronounced an elaborate eulogium upon
insult, an absurdity, and an abomina- him, as being one of those who, having
tion-they regarded such an Assembly, come forward to assist the Radical Party,
claiming to overrule the decision of the could never be accused of neither toiling
Representatives of the people, as a bane- nor spinning. The Chancellor of the
ful and pernicious institution. In the Exchequer, whose opinions on this sub-
great tribunal of the country the case ject had peculiar force, because unless
had been heard and judgment had been he was grossly maligned he would not
given; and the country called upon the be averse to take his seat in the House
House to give effect to that judgment. of Lords, and on the formation of the
Mn. DILLWYN seconded the Roso- present Government had been willing
lution. to face the dismay of the Legal Profcs-
Amendment proposed, sion by accepting the Woolsack. That
To leave ot from the word "That" to the right hon. Gentleman went some time
end of the Question, in order to add the words ago to speak in Dorsetshire, and he in-
' in the opinion of this House, it is incon- vited to take the chair a Peer who had
sistent with the principles of Representative since been rewarded with the Office of
Government, that any Member of either House Postmaster General; and the right hon.
of the Legislature should derive his title to Gentleman said that if every Peer was
legislate by virtue of hereditary descent,"- e Ld W n o w
r. Labchere,) like Lord Wolverton no one would take
instead tLhereof. objection to the House of Lords. All
-instead thereof. that showed that it was the politics and
Question proposed, "That the words not the composition of the other House
proposed to be left out stand part of that they were asked to deal with on the
the Question." present occasion. The hon. Member for
Mn. BRODRICK said, he thought Northampton did not deny that there
that the hen. Member for Northampton, was a useful minority in the other
in the interesting exhibition which he Chamber. The fact was, that this
had just afforded them, had hardly minority was really a majority. Now
treated the subject with the seriousness the present House of Lords consisted of
that it demanded. The hon. Gentle- 521 Members. Of thatnumberl82had
man's description of the composition of previously sat in the House of Corn-
the House of Lords was an extraordi- mons, and had therefore experience of
nary caricature and a ridiculous exagge- legislative work from having contested
ration which would not be received with and being chosen to represent consti-
much respect in the country. There tuencies. Surely those who were fit for
was no class of men which was more the work of legislation in one House
violent in their vituperation of the House could not lose their qualifications by
of Lords than the Radicals when on the being transferred to the other. Then
war path, and yet whenever they found there was the class of Peers who had
themselves with a Peer who adopted held, not mere ornamental posts, but
their own views, there was no body of high administrative, judicial, and other
men more ready to idolize him and throw offices, the permanent civil servants,
themselves at his feet. The President and, again, men like Lord Wolse-
of the Local Government Board had, as ley and Lord Alcester, who had pe-
everybody knew, spoken very strongly culiar knowledge, of the Services to
against the Upper House, and he had which they belonged. They mounted
pointed out Lord Salisbury as one of up to 50 more. Again, there were 26
those who "toiled not neither did they Bishops who had risen by no hereditary
spin," urging that his opinions in re- rank, but solely by their own merits,
gard to artizans' dwellings and social to the positions they occupied, and who,
reform should be accepted with some it could not be doubted, if they had
reservation because of his aristocratic followed other than spiritual functions,
feelings. That was an indictment against would have been found well quali-
every Member of the other House; but fied by education and cultivation to
a few weeks afterwards the right hon. legislate for the country. There were
Gentleman went down to a political altogether between 250 and 260 men,
meeting in the country, and having sue- or rather more than half the House
ceeded in getting a young Peer of no of Lords, who belonged to these
.r. Labouckere


JC0-MM0NSJ


Government. 36


35 Rep~resenztative







87 Representative


classes. It was, therefore, preposterous
forth hon. Member to speakof theHouse
of Lords as if capable men in it were as
rare as albinos in Africa. Why, there
were in the Upper House no less than
eight Peers who had sat side by side
with the present Prime Minister in diffe-
rent Cabinets, but who had not on this
occasion found their way there. The hon.
Member had been guilty of the grossest
exaggeration in regard to the sums of
public money paid, as he represented,
in pampering hereditary legislators. He
challenged the hon. Member to show
the House how he arrived at his cal-
culation that 380,000 per annum of
public money was enjoyed by Members
of the House of Lords. He believed
that there were not at this moment more
than 30 paid Members in the other
House; and he felt satisfied that the
hon. Member could not produce authentic
documents to prove his extraordinary
calculation. Again, great ignorance
existed as to the proportions of Peers
who attended in the other House. He
admitted that a certain number of Peers
did not attend to their functions, and he
should be as much inclined as anyone
to say that those of that Body who did
not value their privileges should not be
enabled to exercise them. But he had
taken the statistics of attendance for a
period of eight years. During that time
from 330 to 400 Peers who attended the
House spoke and voted, and the average
amounted to 340 per Session. He did
not, of course, say they were there every
day; but the average for one year be-
fore Easter, although there were no
divisions and few debates of importance,
was 120. The hen. Member said that the
House of Lords, as at present consti-
tuted, was a body of partizans. But
whose fault was that? Since the Re-
form Act of 1832, of nearly 200 Peers
added to the House of Lords more than
two-thirds had been added by Radical
Administrations. These, then, were the
"spawn of corruption, and blunders, and
wars of the dark ages of history," of
whom the senior Member for Bir-
mingham (Mr. Bright) had spoken.
Why did Peers who were sent up from
that House become Tories? It was, he
believed, because they had no occasion
to be afraid of constituents as to the
course they pursued with regard to legis-
lative measures; but then it had to be
remembered that they voted according
to their principles. It had often been


said that Radicalism was a good faith
to begin life in, but it got stale in middle
age, and it was a bad faith to die in.
That was evidently the view shared by
those who went to the House of Lords.
What the hen. Member and his Friends
really wanted was a House of Lords con-
sisting of Radicals, hall-marked by the
Caucus. If theylooked at thowork of the
House of Lords fairly, he did not think
they had much reason to complain; but
he would like to see a body of life Peers
added-men of legislative instincts and
experience, who might replace those who
could be deprived of their legislative
functions through non-attendance on
their duties, as that would strengthen
the House. He asked the House to
note the circumstance that the hon.
Member did not say that he wished
the offices attached to the Court to be
abolished, or the salaries connected with
the appointments done away with. It
seemed to him that he would evidently
be satisfied if his Colleague the junior
Member for Northampton (Mr. Brad-
laugh), and perhaps Mr. Schnadhorst
became Master of the Horse and
Master of the Buckhounds in suc-
cession to the present holders of
these offices. As to the action of the
House of Lords with regard to the Bills
sent up from the Commons, that action,
he thought, must, on the whole, be re-
garded as beneficial. It had been said
the House of Lords never did anything
to the advantage of the country; but he
utterly denied the accuracy of that state-
ment. He thought the hon. Member.
was unfortunate in his comparison in
taking as an illustration the last Reform
Bill. Could any hon. Member doubt
that the hands of the Prime Minister
were strengthened for carrying out the
Redistribution Bill by the action of the
House of Lords? The result of their
action in that instance was that a more
complete measure of Reform was pro-
duced than they could have expected in
the fifth year of an expiring Parlia-
ment. Much exception had been taken
to the action of the House of Lords in
throwing out the Compensation for Dis-
turbance Bill. It was quite true; but
the House of Lords thought that the
series of measures which the Prime
Minister had brought forward would not
result in the pacification of Ireland.
Would any hon. Member say that those
measures had had this result, or even
that the present attempt of the right
C2


IMARCH 5, 18861


Governinent. 38







39 Representative


hon. Gentleman was one which justified
those measures and the strain which he
had put on Parliament during all those
years? The strongest position of the
House of Lords was in reference to
measures which had not received due
consideration from the country. The
Lon. Member had said that the issue of
the Home Rule scheme of the Prime
Minister was in the hands of Lord
Salisbury. He need hardly remind the
House that no hint of the scheme of the
Prime Minister was given to the country
until a fortnight after the General Elec-
tion.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE): I
broadly contradict that statement. The
declaration was made on the 13th Sep-
tember, and nothing whatever was ever
added to it.
MR. BRODRICK: Did the right
hon. Gentleman in November ever make
any declaration with respect to large
schemes dealing with land in Ireland ?
MR. W. E. GLADSTONE: I spoke
of the Government of Ireland. No
declaration was made as to land.
MR. BRODRICK: I said scheme.
MR. W. E. GLADSTONE: No scheme
was hinted at.
MR. BRODRICK said, the fact of a
radical and complete change with respect
to Ireland was first brought before the
country broadly in the month of Decem-
ber, at the very moment when the con-
stituencies, having given their verdict,
could not be consulted on it. The House
of Lords could ensure a due attention by
-the Government of the day to the wishes
of the people. The House of Lords had
shown its usefulness in many ways, and
they had a right to ask that their House
should be fairly judged on the measures
they had promoted. He was surprised to
see how many of the questions on which
the minds of labourers and artizans
were excited had" been first brought
forward and debated in the House of
Lords. The questions of the transfer of
land and the freedom of entail were
subjects which, but for the initiative of
Lord Cairns, would certainly have not
been treated in the last Parliament.
Reference had been made to the subject
of artizans' dwellings. Would the hon.
Member deny that the question of
artizans' dwellings coming so promi-
nently to the front were due entirely to
the action of Lord Salisbury in writing
an article in a magazine, afterwards
Mr. Brodrick


bringing the matter before the House of
Lords, and moving for a Royal Com-
mission ? Take, again, the question of
intemperance. The House of Lords
appointed a Committee to inquire into
the matter, and a Report had been pre-
sented to Parliament. He hoped that
in the Local Government Bill of this
Session some attempt would be made to
grapple with this'question. No hen.
Member would deny that the Select
Committees of the House of Lords were
attended with greater vigour than those
of the House of Commons. He had
often heard lawyers bear a tribute to
the superior way in which the Private
Bill Committees were conducted by the
Peers in comparison with those of the
House of Commons. Again, the House
of Commons might imitate without any
derogation of its dignity the business-
like manner in which the Business of
that House was transacted. With regard
to the strictures of the hen. Member on
the composition of the late Cabinet, and
the number of Peers and relatives of
Peers which it included, he denied alto-
gether that those criticisms were either
just or fair. The last Cabinet repre-
sented the people as truly as did the
present Cabinet, and this could be tested
by the reception half-a-dozen Members
of either Cabinet would receive at
popular gatherings in the country. He
hoped the House would not be hurried
into a decision adverse to the hereditary
principle. When we had a body of
Peers who had given their services to
the country, as many of the Peers had
done, with all the knowledge'they had
of Quarter Sessions business and of local
government, with the experience many
of them had gained in the House of
Commons, and the advantages others
possessed in having filled high govern-
ing offices, we ought to halt before we
condemned the hereditary principle. If it
were necessary to modify the working of
that principle, he did not think there
would be any difficulty about doing that.
It was said that this House had already
emancipated itself from the influence of
the other House, and the day might yet
come when the impulses of this House
after an election might be advantage-
ously restrained by the more settled
habits of thought which were favoured by
the independence of the other House.
BAnoN F. DE ROTHSCHILD said,
he should not have spoken but for a
sentence in the speech of the hon. Mem-


{COMMONS}


Government. AO








ber for Northampton. He understood than others, who were eminent above
the hon. Member to say that one reason their fellows, and he looked into their
for sweeping away the hereditary system parentage and relationships. The body
was that the unsatisfactory character of of men he singled out in order to prove
ourLandLawswasdueto the abominable his case was the House of Lords.
and disgraceful conduct of the landlords. Although there were varieties of degree
Although he was as staunch a supporter in genius and ability in that House, yet
of the Liberal Government as the hon. it was found that elevation to that House
Member himself, he could not assent to did mark some degree of eminence over
the charges which he understood the the ordinary runof men. Consequently,
hon. Member to make, and, therefore, a philosopher, a man of science, study-
he must be allowed to protest against ing the question said that a body of
them. men which did include men of more or
Mn. LABOUOHERE corrected the less eminence afforded him the illustra-
hon. Gentleman with a remark which tion he required in order to prove the
was inaudible in the Gallery. hereditary quality of genius. The author
BAnoN F. DE ROTHSCHILD said, said that not only was genius transmis-
he had understood the hon. Member had sible from father to son, but it was
spoken of the disgraceful conduct of the curious to find traces of it in the ances-
landlords. This country had achieved tors and collateral relatives of dis-
historic greatness long before the demo- tinguished men, in brothers, in uncles
cratic principle had asserted itself in the and nephews, and even in. female rela-
composition of the House of Commons; tives. If Mr. Galton's investigations
and, therefore, if landlords had exer- were worth anything, they proved that
cised the influence with which they were the possession of particular qualities had
charged or credited in the past, it must something to do with the accession of
be admitted that they had done some- men to the Peerage; and, therefore, the
thing to promote the historic greatness abolition of the House of Lords would
of the country, be a retrograde measure which it was
Mn. RADCLIFFE COOKE said, that inherently improbable that the hon.
the hon. Member for Northampton could Member for Northampton, as an ad-
scarcely have intended to do irreverence vanced reformer, would desire to support.
to the memory of his uncle, who was a Looking to the terms of the Resolution,
Peer, so that the hon. Member was him- it was not desirable to discuss the merits
self a relative of a Peer and one of the of the existing Assembly; it would be
class of whom he had affected to speak time to do that when such a Resolution
so contemptuously. The real intention was moved by a responsible Minister.
of the hon. Member must be something It was said that long ago many persons
different from that which was suggested were promoted to the House of Lords
by the guise he assumed; and for the because they were relatives of persons
meaning of his speech, as for that of a of unruly wills and affections. The
manifesto of the Prime Minister, you hon. Member might make the best or
must read between the lines. The hen. the worst of the amours of Charles II.;
Member would not favour a retrograde and, indeed, he would give the hon.
measure; it would be one to deny the Member all the 17th century. The
value of the hereditary principle; and, House was probably familiar with a
therefore, the House must in this case publication which was named on the
look deeper than the surface for the principle of lucus a non lucendo. That
springs of human action. The doctrine publication brought the hon. Member
of evolution was announced and estab- in, as he had stated himself, 5,000
lished by Darwin. His investigations a-year. Judging from analogy, thehon.
were carried further by Mr. F. Galton, Member did not wish the House to sup-
who studied not merely the transmissi- port this Resolution. The publication
ability of physical qualities in the lower to which he referred was hardly any-
animals and man, but also the trans- thing else than a Court Circular. It was
missibility of intellectual qualities and nothing but a record of all the sayings
the heredity of genius. It was some 10 and doings and tittle-tattle of the Court,
or 15 years since he read Mr. Galton's and nobility, and gentry of the Realm.
book, the scope of which was that genius If the House of Lords were abolished,
was hereditary. Mr. Galton took certain that paper would no longer bring in
classes of persons who were more noted 5,000 a-year. It was absolutely im-


41 Rep~resenztatime


IMARcir 5, 18861


Government. 42








probable that anyone would wish to lose What he intended to show was that the
5,000 a-year. Moreover, the hon. Gen- hon. Gentleman did not mind having his
tleman, in conducting his publication, motives misconstrued, and that he could
was most pronounced and particular as in a new and unsuspected way promote
to the minuteness and accuracy of his a good object. He would therefore vote,
information about any Royal Family; as he was sure the hon. Member wished
and if he could find out that the Princess him to vote, against his Resolution. For
of some obscure German Principality his own part, he did not ask for any re-
took three lumps of sugar in her tea, ward for having discovered the real
and could convict a contemporary, not nature of the hon. Gentleman. If the
so well-informed, of the glaring inaccu- hon. Gentleman would send his gossip
racy of saying that she took two, he gatherers down this neighbourhood, he
chuckled for a month over the trans- might find something that would suit
action. After that, he turned round him; but he should consider himself
and, by the assistance of his staff of fully remunerated for being vilified in
gossip gatherers, vilified the very people Truth.
whom he had been describing. The THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREA-
outside public would naturally think SURY (Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE) : I
that anyone who should act in that way shall have the honour of voting this
was a very mean and contemptible per- evening in the same Lobby as the hon.
son. But the true conclusion was that Gentleman who has just sat down,
the hon. Gentleman so acted in order to though I shall not be able to justify my
win sympathy for the persons he at- vote on precisely the same principles, so
tacked, and in proposing this Resolution far as I am able to understand them, as
he was actuated by the same motives, those which characterized the latter part
There were one or two other matters in particularly of his speech. The early
which he had acted in the same way. In part of it, with respect to heredity, I
what he advocated he wished to be de- thought to be extremely interesting,
feated. On a former occasion, the hon. particularly had we been a metaphysical
Member propounded a scheme of Home society, and, no doubt, there was a con-
Rule, and it was so ridiculous and im- siderable degree of truth in it; but I do
practicable that it settled the question not think we can found ourselves broadly
for a century. No doubt, the hon. Gen- upon the propositions he advanced. I
tleman brought forward the scheme be- thought it right to leave the debate to
cause he was desirous of maintaining the, proceed for a certain time without inter-
unity and integrity of the Empire. vention, because I was not able to join
Again, in the cloture debate, when hon. issue with the Mover of this Motion in
Members feared that freedom of debate terms as broad and as unqualified as I
would be curtailed, the hon. Gentleman thought probably hon. Gentlemen oppo-
said that if a Radical Government were site might be disposed to adopt. Iam very
in Office and proposed a measure, he glad that the question has been stated
would give the Conservatives half-an- on both sides, by the Mover as by the
hour to pass it. That was the reduction hon. Member who replied to him, with
ad absurdum, and it was clear that the so much precision; because mixed with
hon. Gentleman, by acting in that way, all the sarcasms of the Mover of the
wanted to defend the rights of minori- Motion there was, I thought, in the
ties. Ho hoped he had proved, by the speech he delivered much of a substance
analogy of these cases, that the hon. of a very grave and serious nature. I
Gentleman did not want the House to will make the admission also that I
pass this Resolution, that he brought it thought the hon. Member opposite de-
forward with a deep meaning, and that fended the House of Lords with great
he did not mind being thought con- ingenuity and talent. But, Sir, my posi-
contemptible and mean. [Cries of tion is not that of either the one or the
"Order!" and "Name!"] other. I am not able to adopt the de-
MR. SPEAKER said, he hoped the fence of the legislative action of the
hon. Member would not pursue that line House of Lords that was given by the
of observation; he was not entitled to hon. Gentleman opposite. He said, very
apply such language to another Member naturally I think, that this House has
of the House. very little reason to complain of the
Mn. RADCLIFFE COOKE said, he House of Lords. But I want to know
would at once withdraw the expression, who in this House have very little
Mr. Radliffe Cooke


Government. .44


43 Rspresenlactive


{COMMONS}








reason to complain? As for the hon. always made on the occasion of public
Member himself, I admit that he and festivities, when the speaker--particu-
his Friends have had very little reason larly if he is a Liberal speaker, I am
to complain of the House of Lords. But bound to say-is charged with the busi-
I am bound to say, without entering into ness of returning thanks for the House
details which would be fitter for some of Lords, and that stock observation is
other occasion and for a more searching as a capital panegyric on that illustrious
debate, I cannot deny that I think the Assembly, that the House of Lords never
nation has much to complain of in regard pushes its resistance to measures sent
to the legislative action of the House of from the other House of Parliament to
Lords. And the hon. Member himself the point of causing revolution. Well,
distinctly indicated that such must, at that is perfectly true; but is that a
any rate, be our belief, because he said reason why we ought to be contented
that the indictment against the House of and pleased with the action of the
Lords, which in terms purported to be House of Lords ? My reasons for
that the House of Lords was made opposing the Motion of my hen.
up of partizans, really meant that they Friend are in brief these two. In
were Conservatives. That might be per- the first place, I never, I believe,
fcctlytrue; but if the House of Lords have voted upon a question of import-
are from year to year, from Parliament ance for a declaration of an abstract
to Parliament, from generation to gene- opinion in regard to a matter involving
ration, deliberately and consistently Con- deeply the public interests unless I was
sorvative, and if at the same time the able to follow up that Resolution by
country, as tested by General Elections action. I do not press that hard upon
and at the very least 11 out of 13 Par- my hon. Friend. I cannot wonder that
laments, has been Liberal, it is assur- hon. Members in this House frequently
edly no very great error to say that a find it a necessity for themselves in the
case may have happened which may in- difficulties in which they are placed, in
dine a Liberal Parliament to make some order to give effect to their opinions, to
complaint of the action of the Conserva- resort to the proposal of abstract Reso-
tive House of Lords. Sir, I cannot agree lutions. But there is some difference in
with the hon. Member that we are very this respect between the position of in-
much indebted to the House of Lords dependent Members and the position of
for its conduct with respect to the Fran- those who hold Office. As regards those
chise Bill. He said that by means of who have for the time or the hour the
the conduct of the House of Lords we honour of being Ministers of the Crown,
were enabled to carry the Redistribution the adoption of a Resolution of this kind
Bill, as to which he thought even I is a virtual promise to give it effect. In
should have admitted that it was in the my opinion there is nothing which would
power of the minority of this House, so much excite the suspicions of the
with the use of its Forms, and without House, nothing which would throw it
recurring to the extreme use of its into such a mood of vigilant jealousy, as
Forms, to check, and effectually to render the detection of any tendency on the
futile, the action of the majority. But, part of the Ministry to deal in promises
although it may be perfectly true that in lieu of dealing in performances.
after once rejecting the Franchise Bill, [Ironical cheers.] I understand the
after causing the country to be agitated meaning of that cheer, but I do not
through an autumn, and after having think it is a very sharp one. I think
presented to it the second issue of a most that the promises of which I speak are
formidable conflict, the House of Lords promises embodied in the Resolutions
did then give way, I cannot help saying, of this House. I apprehend that with
why was that course not adopted on the regard to the action of a Minister,
first occasion? It was not owing to any unless the Gentlemen who cheer may
change on our part. There was nothing think it is perfectly possible-and, per-
done by us on the second occasion which haps, such is their opinion-for him to
we did not from the first make known do everything at once, and without a
our readiness and desire to do. [" Oh, moment's consideration-I apprehend
oh "] Nothing whatever. And when in regard to his future conduct, what he
I am told that the House of Lords gave may do next week or next month, when
way upon the second occasion, it reminds he speaks of anything in the future he
me of an observation which is almost may be said to deal in a promise. That


45 Beepresentative


IJMARCH 5, 18861


Government. 46







47 Representative


is a necessity of the case, and no such
necessity is incumbent on this House.
With respect to these promises, they
are promises of action ; but the practice
to which I now refer is not a form of
action, it is a form too often of evading
action, and of keeping an engagement
in the letter, while in act there is no
fulfilment of it in the spirit. But I
cannot say that I could entirely adopt
the Resolution of my hon. Friend, even
if we were in a condition-which we are
not-to deal with the great subject of
what is called the reform of the House
of Lords. We have reached a point-
and it is worth remarking-at which all
hon. Gentlemen appear to admit that
there ought to be reforms in the House
ofLords. The hon. Gentleman opposite
had not only made that admission, but
he had made it as an assertion, and he
appears to hold that opinion with vigour
and decision. The question of what
those reforms ought to be-when we
come to it-is a very large question,
indeed, and I do believe that when
the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr.
Labouchere)-should it be his fate-
comes to deal practically with this sub-
ject, he will find it a larger subject than
he is disposed at the present moment to
imagine. I was rather struck by hearing
the hon. Gentleman the Member for
Surrey (Mr. Brodrick) say in warning
tones to-day that we ought to think once,
twice, and thrice before proceeding to
deal comprehensively with the case of
the House of Lords, because it reminded
me that I once used that very expression
myself in a public speech, and that upon
my having used that expression there
was founded a series of volleys from the
whole Tory Press of the country which
nearly blew me to pieces; and they said
it was a clear proof that as "he had
only to think once, twice, or thrice, and
then to do it he entertains the most
revolutionary doctrines." Such is the
effect produced by change of times.
But my hon. Friend has paid to-day an
indirect compliment to the Bishops, for
he proposes to condemn by his Resolu-
tion-
MR. LABOUGHERE: De minimis
non curat lex.
MR. W. E. GLADSTONE: If my
hon. Friend considers that de minimis
non curat lex disposes of the question of
the episcopal seats in the House of
Lords, I gather that to be a declaration
by my hon. Friend that when Motions
2Mr. W. E. Gladstone


are made in this House on the subject
he will not condescend to take any part
either by his speech or by vote. My
hon. Friend has, at any rate by silence,
given his sanction to the episcopal seats
in the House of Lords. Perhaps he will
say he did not mean that. Then,
Sir, I will say that that illustrates one
of the objections I take-namely, to
dealing piecemeal with this subject.
This great question ought not to be pre-
judiced by premature discussion. You
ought to leave the whole field open, and
you ought not to narrow or restrict
the means of future action by laying
down beforehand a limited condition
that whatever you do you will totally
abolish the hereditary principle. I am
not going to ask the House to affirm
anything about the hereditary principle.
I am not myself entirely inclined to its
total abolition. I have said, with regard
to the legislative action of the House of
Lords, that I cannot defend it. I cannot
deny that there is a case for large and
important change-change very difficult
to effect, but change for which there is
sufficient and ample reason. But do
not let the hon. Member suppose that
when he talks of abolishing the heredi-
tary principle he is propounding an
opinion which it will be as easy
to give effect to as it is undoubtedly
popular and musical to the ears of men.
The House of Lords has, in my opinion,
great sources of strength in this coun-
try quite apart from its legislative
action, In my opinion its great strength
is not in its legislative, but in its local
action. It is in the local action of its
Peers individually-certainlynot of all of
its Peers; there are a part of them who
are abandoned to the tender mercies of
my hon. Friend or of anybody else by the
hon. and learned Gentleman opposite,
the clever, able, and ingenious champion
of the House of Lords to-night-but it
is impossible to deny that in a multitude
of local circles in this country there are
many Members of the House of Lords-
many eminent Members of the House of
Lords-who do not draw their chief
eminence from conspicuous political
action, but from useful services ren-
dered, along with great capacity and
opportunity for such services, to their
neighbours and to the community in
which they live. These men have driven
deep roots into the soil, and these men
are the strength of the order to which
they belong, just as the idle Peer and


{COMMONS}


Government. 48







49 Representativc


the worthless Peer are both the disgrace
and the weakness of their order; and
much, Sir, will have to be done before
you can arrive, I will say, at a ra-
tional conclusion on the question when
you come to deal seriously with the con-
stitution of the House of Lords, and
what course should be taken with re-
spect to the hereditary principle as to
either its extinction-which I for one
am not prepared to affirm-or as to a
limitation of its range. But the general
conclusion which I draw from this view
of the case is that this is not a question
to be dealt with piecemeal. I certainly
cannot vote for a Motion to which I
could not give effect even if I accepted
the terms of the Resolution of my hen.
Friend. These terms appear to me to
be far too wide and sweeping, and to
tend not to an increase, but to a dimi-
nution, of our future means of action.
When I say our future means of action,
the question which I put just now may
be retorted upon me, and I may be
asked-"Whose future means of ac-
tion?" Certainly, Sir, it will not be
mine. I speak in the presence of those
around me and in trust for those who
are to come; but I think the House
will do well, while reserving this great
subject for a time when its whole power,
its whole attention, and its whole free-
dom can be concentrated upon it-and
I am quite certain that when that time
does arrive all your means and all your
resources will be required in order to
deal with it worthily-the House will
do well to decline to deal with it in a
manner which I think would not be
worthy either of the dignity or of the
high character of this House, or of the
greatness of the subject itself, by laying
down a particular opinion in respect of
a particular point in the future-per-
haps distant-discussion of a great
public subject as to which we might
find, when the time came, that the only
effect had been that such a declaration
had fettered us in our freedom of action
and made still more difficult a practical
solution of a question which, under all
circumstances, when it arrives, will in
itself be difficult enough.
CAPTAIN VERNEY, who rose amidst
loud cries of Divide! said, he only
wished to reply to a remark which had
been made by the hen. Member for
Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) with
regard to himself. They had all listened


with great pleasure to the hon. Mem-
ber's speech; but that speech lacked one
thing-it lacked that courtesy towards
Members who disagreed with him which
young Members expected from older
Members. The hon. Member was not
entitled to say that those who differed
from him were necessarily humbugs, or
that they advocated upon the hustings
principles which they were afraid to
advocate in this House. When the hon.
Member for Northampton knew him
better, he would not repeat that charge.
He regretted to have obtruded upon the
House, and would not have done so
except to repudiate the unworthy ob-
servation of the hon. Member.
Question put.
The House divided:-Ayes 202; Noes
166: Majority 36.


AYES.


Acland, rt.hn. SirT. D.
Acland, C. T. D.
Addison, J. E. W.
Agg-Gardner, J. T.
Allsopp, hen. C.
Allsopp, hon. G.
Ambrose, W.
Amherst, W. A. T.
Asher, A.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.
Baden-Powell, G. S.
Baily, L. R.
Balfour, rt. hon. A. J.
Balfour, G. W.
Barnes, A.
Barttelot, Sir W. B.
Baumann, A. A.
Beach, right hon. Sir
N. E. Hicks-
Beadel, W. J.
Bentinck, rt. hn. G. C.
Bethell, Commander
Bigwood, J.
Birkbeck, Sir E.
Blundell, Col H. B. H.
Bourke, right hon. I.
Brand, hon. II. R.
Brassey, Sir T.
Bridgeman, Col. hen.
F. C.
Brinton, J.
Bristowe, T. L.
Brodrick, hen. W. St.
J. F.
Brookfield, Col. A. 11.
Bryce, J.
Bullard, H.
Burdett-Coutts, W. L.
Ash.-B.
Campbell, Sir A.
Campbell, J. A.
Cavendish, Lord E.
Charrington, S.
Childers, rt. hon. II.
0. E.


Churchill, rt. hn. Lord
R. H. S.
Clarke, E.
Commerell,Adml. SirJ.
Compton, F.
Cooke, C. W. R.
Corry, Sir J. P.
Cotton, Capt. E. T. D.
Cranhorne, Viscount
Cross, rt. hen. Sir R. A.
Cross, H. S.
Currie, Sir D.
Curzon, Viscount
Dawson, R.
Do Cobain, E. S. W.
Dimsdale, Baron R.
Duckham, T.
Duff, R. W.
Duncombe, A.
Dyke, rt. hen. Sir W.
H.
Eaton, H. W.
Edwardes-Moss, T. C.
Egerton, hen. A. de T.
Egerton, hn. A. J. F.
Elliot, hen. II. F. II.
Ellis, Sir J. W.
Evelyn, W. J.
Ewing, Sir'A. O.
Farquharson, II. R.
Feilden, Lt-Gen R. J.
Ferguson, R.
Fergusson,rt. hn. Sir J.
Field, Captain E.
Finlayson, J.
Fitzgerald, R. U. P.
Fitzwilliam, hen. W.
J. W.
Fletcher, Sir H.
Folkestone, Viscount
Forwood, A. B.
Fowler, Sir R. N.
Fraser, General C. C.
Gathorne-Hardy, hon.
J. S.


IMAi~onI 5, 18861


Govcernmencrt. 50








51 Representative


Gibson, J. G.
Gladstone, rt.hn. W.E.
Gorst, Sir J. E.
Gower, G. G. L.
Grant, Sir G. 1M.
Green, H.
Gregory, G. B.
Grenfell, W. H.
Grimston, Viscount
Gunter, Colonel R.
Hall, A. W.
Halsey, T. F.
Hamilton, right hon.
Lord G. F.
Hamilton, Col. C. E.
Hanbury, R. W.
Harcourt, rt. hon. Sir
W. G. V. V.
Hardcastle, E.
Harker, W.
Haslett, J. H.
Heaton, J. H.
Heneage, right hon. E.
Herbert, hon. S.
Hickman, A.
Hill, Lord A. W.
Hill, A. S.
Holland, rt. hon. Sir
H. T.
Hope, right hon. A. J.
B. B.
Houldsworth, W. H.
Howard, J.
Howard, J. 1M.
Hughes Hallett, Col.
F. C.
Hunt, F. S.
Jackson, W. L.
Johnston, W.
Jones-Parry, L.
Kennaway, Sir J. H.
Kenny, C. S.
Kilcoursie, right hon.
Viscount
Kimber, H.
King, H. S.
Knatchbull-Hugessen,
hon. H. T.
Knightley, Sir R.
Lawrence, Sir T.
Lechmere, Sir E. A. H.
Llewellyn, E. H.
Long, W. H.
Lowther, hon. W.
Lubbock, Sir J.
Macartney, W. G. E.
Macdonald, right hon.
J. H. A.
Maclean, F. W.
M'Calmont, Captain J.
M'Garel-Hogg, Sir J.
M'Lagan, P.
March, Earl of
More, R. J.
Morgan, rt. hon. G. 0.
Morgan, hon. F.
Mowbray, rt. hon. Sir
J. R.


Mulholland, H. L.
Muncaster, Lord
Mundella, rt. hn. A. J.
Murdoch, C. T.
Norton, R.
Paget, Sir H. H.
Parker, C. S.
Pease, Sir J. W.
Pease, A. E.
Pelly, Sir L.
Pitt-Lewis, G.
Playfair, rt. hon. SirL.
Plunket, rt. hon. D. R.
Portman, hon. E. B.
Powell, F. S.
Price, Captain G. E
Pugh, D.
Raikes, rt. hon. H. C.
Reed, Sir E. J.
Richardson, T.
Ritchie, C. T.
Roscoe, Sir H. E.
Ross, A. H.
Round, J.
Russell, Sir G.
St. Aubyn, Sir J.
Saunderson, Maj. E. J.
Selwin Ibbotson, rt.
hon. Sir H. J.
Seton-Karr, H.
Sidebottom, T. H.
Sitwell, Sir G. R.
Smith, rt. hen. W. H.
Smith, A.
Smith, D.
Spencer, hon. C. R.
Stanhope, rt. hon. E.
Stanley, rt. hn. Col.
Sir F.
Stanley, E. J.
Stewart, 1M.
Sturgis, H. P.
Sturrock, P.
Talbot, J. G.
Temple, Sir R.
Thomas, A.
Tollemache, H. J.
Tomlinson, W. E. M.
Tottenham, A. L.
Trevelyan, rt. hn. G.O.
Trotter, H. J.
Tyler, Sir H. W.
Verney, Captain E. H.
Vincent, C. E. H.
Walrond, Col. W. H.
Walsh, hon. A. H. J.
Watson, J.
West, Colonel W. C.
West, H. W.
Whitbread, S.
Wodehouse, E. R.
WVortley, C. B. Stuart
Wroughton, P.
Young, C. E. B.

TELLERS.
Marjoribanks,rt.hon.E.
Morley, A.


NOES.
Abraham, W. (Glam.) Allison, R. A.
Abraham, W. (Lime- Armitage, B.
rick, W.) Ashton, T. G.


Baker, L. J.
Barbour, W. B.
Barclay, J. W.
Beamont, H. F.
Blades, J. H.
Blaine, A.
Blake, T.
Bolton, J. C.
Bolton, T. H.
Boyd-Kinnear, J.
Bradlaugh, C.
Brocklehurst, W. C.
Brown, A. H.
Bruce, hon. R. P.
Brunner, J. T.
Byrne, G. 1M.
Campbell, H.
Carew, J. L.
Chance, P. A.
Channing, F. A.
Clancy, J. J.
Cobb, H. P.
Cobbold, F. T.
Coleridge, hon. B.
Colman, J. J.
Compton, Lord W. G.
Condon, T. J.
Connolly, L.
Conway, M.
Conybeare, C. A. V.
Cook, E. R.
Cook, W.
Corbet, W. J.
Cossham, H.
Cowen, J.
Cox, J. R.
Craven, J.
Cremer, W. R.
Crilly, D.
Crompton, C.
Crossley, E.
Crossman, Gen. Sir W.
Davies, W.
Dillon, J.
Dillwyn, L. L.
Ellis, J. E.
Esslemont, P.
Fenwick, C.
Finucane, J.
Fletcher, B.
Flynn, J. C.
Foster, Dr. B.
Fuller, G. P.
Gilhooly, J.
Gill, H. J.
Gill, T. P.
Goldsmid, Sir J.
Gourley, E. T.
Gray, E. D.
Grey, Sir E.
Harrington, E.
Havelock Allan, Sir
H. 1M.
Hayden, L. P.
Hayne, C. Seale-
Healy, H.
Hingley, B.
Holden, A.
Holden, I.
Howell, G.
Illingworth, A.
Ingram, W. J.
Jacks, W.


Jacoby, J. A.
James, hon. W. H.
Jenkins, D. J.
Johns, J. W.
Johnson-Ferguson, J.
E.
Jordan, J.
Kelly, B.
Kenny, J. E.
Lalor, R.
Lane, W. J.
Lawson, H. L. W.
Leahy, J.
Leatham, E. A.
Lockwood, F.
M'Arthur, A.
M'Culloch, J.
M'Donald, P.
Marum, E. M.
Mather, W.
Morgan, O. V.
Murphy, W. M.
Nolan, Colonel J. P.
Nolan, J.
O'Brien, J. F. X.
O'Brien, P.
O'Brien, P. J.
O'Brien, W.
O'Connor, A.
O'Connor, J.
O'Connor, T. P.
O'Doherty, J. E.
O'Hea, P.
O'Kelly, J.
O'Mara, S.
O'Shea, W. H.
Peacock, R.
Pickersgill, E. H.
Picton, J. A.
Pilkington, G. A.
Powell, W. R. H.
Power, P. J.
Power, R.
Price, T. P.
Priestly, B.
Pulley, J.
Pyne, J. D.
Reid, H. G.
Richard, H.
Rigby, J.
Roberts, J. B.
Roberts, J.
Roe, T.
Russell, E. R.
Rylands, P.
Salis-Schwabe, Col. G.
Saunders, W.
Shaw, T.
Sheehan, J. D.
Sheehy, D.
Shell, E.
Sheridan, H. B.
Shirley, W. S.
Simon, Serjeant J.
Small, J. F.
Spensley, H.
Spicer, H.
Stack, J.
Stevenson, F. S.
Sullivan, D.
Tanner, C. K.
Tuite J.
Vanderbyl, P.


Government. 52


{COMMONS}






53 The Fishing Industries {MAnCR 5, 1886} (England and Wales). 54


Vivian, Sir I. H. Williams, P.
Wardle, H. Wilson, H. J.
Warmington, C. M. Wilson, I.
Wason, E. Wilson, J. (Ednbgh.)
Watson, T. Wolmer, Viscount
Watt, H. Wright, C.
Wayman, T.
Westlake, J. TELLrES.
Will, J. S. Labouchere, H.
Williams, A. J. Stuart, J.
Williams, J. C.
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker
do now leave the Chair," again pro-
posed.
THE FISHING INDUSTRIES (ENGLAND
AND WALES)- INSTITUTION OF A
FISHERY BOARD.-OBSERVATIONS.
SinEDWARD BIRKBECK, on rising
to call the attention of the House to the
great want of a Central Department for
all matters connected with the Fishing
Industries; and to move-
That, in consideration of the growing im-
portance of the Fishing Industries, the capital
at stake, and the lives dependent on them, in
the opinion of this House it is desirable that a
Fishery Board be appointed for England, with
power to deal with all questions relative to Sea
and Inland Fisheries,"'
said, it was necessary, in order that the
objects which he had in view should be
properly carried out, that they should
have the support of the Government of
the day, and he had no hesitation in
asking for such support, because he
looked upon it as the duty of a great
maritime and fishing country like Eng-
land to give adequate support and en-
couragement to its fishing industry. He
could not better show the importance of
the fishing industries of this country
than by stating to the House a few
statistics in reference to those industries.
In the first place, then, he was able to
inform the House that the number of
fishing vessels employed at the present
time in the United Kingdom was no less
than 37,000, and probably as nearly as
could be ascertained about 17,000 be-
longed to Scotland and Ireland, and the
remainder to England; but it should be
added that the English fishing-vessels
were a far larger, more valuable, and
more important class of vessels than
those belonging to Scotland and Ireland.
The number of men employed in these
vessels might be taken to be from
118,000 to 120,000, and there were,
speaking well within the mark, at least
as many more people on land connected
with the fisheries and dependent upon


their success for the means of livelihood.
With regard to the capital employed in
the industry, it was impossible to arrive
at any definite conclusion. Probably,
however, a fair estimate would be from
15,000,000 to 20,000,000 sterling. At
all events, there could be no doubt that
the capital had of late years increased to
a very large extent. As regarded the
annual income derived from the fisheries,
quoting from Mr. Spencer Walpole, a
late Inspector of Fisheries, who read a
paper in 1883 at the Fisheries Exhibi-
tion, he estimated the annual income at
no less than 10,000,000 sterling. Well,
he thought these statistics would satisfy
the House that the fisheries of the
United Kingdom was a most important
industry, and that he was justified in
asking that the State should encourage
andprotectit. But hon. Members might
ask what Central Department we had
which could take up this work ? Well,
at the present time they had a small
Department called the Fisheries Inspec-
tor's Department, which was a very
small affair, located at the Home Office,
and which figured in the Estimates for
only 1,048 for this year; but the prin-
cipal duties allotted to the Inspector of
Fisheries were in connection with the
salmon fisheries of England, and, as a
rule, no duty was undertaken with re-
gard to the larger and important sea
fisheries. Inquiries were held from time
to time by the Inspectors of Fisheries, and
everybody was ready to acknowledge the
valuable services rendered to the nation
-no one more readily than himself-
by such men as the late Mr. Frank
Buckland, Mr. Spencer Walpole, and
Professor Huxley. The nation was, no
doubt, much indebted to them for what
they had done. Then, in addition to
the Inspector of Fisheries' Office, there
were other Departments which were
more or less connected with the fishing
industries of the country. There was
the Board of Trade, with the Harbour
Department and Marine Department.
There was the Admiralty, to which fisher-
men looked for protection and assistance
on the sea. There was the Foreign
Office, which was expected to protect the
fishing interest with other countries.
There was the Naval Reserves Office,
which was also connected with the pro-
tection of the fisheries; and there wasMr.
Giffen's Office, which had to do with
fishery statistics. Altogether there were







{COMMONS} (England and )Wales).


seven Offices, more or less, connected with
the fisheries in one way or other, and
what he proposed was that these scattered
Offices should be concentrated into one
Central Office and all their powers com-
bined, so that a really effective and
influential Fishery Department might be
formed. He asked hon. Members to say
frankly if they did not believe that such
a Central Department would not only be
much more effectual, but also much
more convenient, than the present in-
adequate and absurd way of represent-
ing the fishing interest in a multiplicity
of scattered Offices. As things now were,
if a smackowner or a fisherman came to
London for the purpose of transacting
business, he'might wander up and down
Whitehall all day long and yet never
find the Office which had control of the
particular branch of the fishing interest
with which he was concerned. Now,
such a state of things was absurd in a
practical country like England. It was,
moreover, highly injurious to the in-
terests of the fishing industry. What
was wanted by way of remedywas a Cen-
tral Fishery Department, which should
take under its care all matters which
affected the interests of fishermen and
the industry which they followed.
There was also the lives of fishermen,
which ought to be considered in this
matter and protected. A few years ago
some regulations with reference to the
fishing vessels lights were proposed to
be put in force, and were drawn up by
men who admitted that they knew of the
subject practically nothing, and were
sprung upon the fishermen without
notice, and upon his (Sir Edward Birk-
beck's) representation Mr. Evelyn Ashley
was sent to the North Sea to observe for
himself. But, unfortunately, on the oc-
casion of that Gentleman's visit there was
heavy ground swell on -and Mr. Evelyn
Ashley was confined to his cabin all the
time, and had to return without being
able to report to the Board of Trade
what dangerous regulations they had
proposed. He only cited this cir-
cumstance to show how necessary it
was that the Department should be
advised by practical men. In Scotland
and Ireland they had well-organized
Fishery Boards, which furnished sta-
tistics and details of the greatest im-
portance, and these Boards were enabled
to make bye-laws for the regulation of
the fisheries. In Canada, the United
Sir Edward Birkbeck


States, Sweden, Norway, Holland, and
other countries, they had Fishery Depart-
ments, which were of immense service
to the fishing industries of those coun-
tries. The United States made a grant
of 54,000 in 1882 for the encourage-
ment of their fisheries. A foreign gen-
tleman expressed to him (Sir Edward
Birkbeck) in 1883, at the International
Fisheries Exhibition, his astonishment
that England, the greatest maritime na-
tion in the world, with the largest fishing
interest, had no Fishery Department.
He (Sir Edward Birkbeck) wished to
remedy that defect, and to give to the
fishing interests of this country a De-
partment or Board with power not only
to protect the fisheries, but to make
regulations for the proper carrying on
of the industry and for the safety of the
lives of the men employed. The Report
of the Royal Commission on Trawling,
which had come before the House last
year, had referred to the question of
fishery authorities. Scotland and Ireland
both possessed Fishery Boards, and the
Irish Board had power to regulate
trawling and make bye-laws. England
had no Fishery Board or any one Body
with analogous powers. He contended
that the fishing interest should be under
the control of one Department,that there
should be a Board with a strong element
of practical men upon it, and with a
permanent secretary and staff. Certain
powers should be conferred upon the
Board and certain duties laid down for
them. They should collect statistics in
the same way as the Scotch and Irish
Boards, and should lay a Report on the
Table of the House annually. The
statistics should state the quantity of
fish caught, its value, the number of
vessels engaged in the industry, the
number of hands employed, and other
useful information. The Board should
be responsible for the registration of
fishing vessels, and be able to recommend
such legislation as was required for the
advance of the fishing industry, taking
care always to have first a thorough
public inquiry, and that there should be
no danger, as heretofore, of legislating
first and asking the advice of practical
men afterwards. He was also of opinion
that in this matter the Coastguard Ser-
vice could give great assistance. The
most practical paper that had ever been
written on our fisheries was brought
before the Fishery Commissioners of the


55 Yhe~ Fishing Indu~strie8






{MARci 5, 1886} (England and Wales). 58


International Fisheries Exhibition, and
was written by His Royal Highness
the Duke of Edinburgh. The fisheries
should, in his (Sir Edward Birkbeck's)
opinion, be divided into fishing districts,
and those districts should have fishery
officers of their own. He would have
officers for such districts as Hull,
Grimsby, Yarmouth, Lowestoft, Ply-
mouth, &c., and those officers would
report to the Board on all matters
in connection with the fisheries, so that
if there was any grievance to be
remedied those officers might, through
the powers conferred on them, be able
to remedysuch grievances,or at all events
communicate respecting them with the
Fishery Board. Such a Board should be
responsible for the salmon fisheries of
England and Wales, and for all inland
fisheries. It might also be thought fit in
time that the Scotch and Irish Boards
should have a connectionwith theEnglish
Central Board-that was to say, if regu-
lations applying to the United Kingdom
were proposed by the Central Board. He
(Sir Edward Birkbeck) hoped the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade had given
consideration to this very important
question. He could not ignore the recom-
mendations of the Trawling Commis-
sion and the importance of dealing with
this matter without delay. He was con-
fident the right hon. Gentleman would
be able to state to the House in speaking
on the Motion now before the House
that as far as its principle was concerned
he would adopt that Motion. He (Sir
Edward Birkbeck) could not be expected
to go into the details of this question at
any length; but he would ask most
earnestly, for the sake of the fishing in-
dustry of the United Kingdom, that the
right hon. Gentleman would be able to
tell the House that the Government were
disposed to give it their best considera-
tion. If he did so, he might rely on the
fishing interest being grateful for what
was carried out. He (Sir Edward Birk-
beck) knew that the late Government
would have given the question their
earnest consideration, and would have
adopted the Motion. Trusting that the
present Government would act in a similar
spirit, the hon. Baronet concluded by
asking the consideration of the House to
the Resolution which stood in his name.
Mn. EDWARD CLARKE, in support-
ing the hon. Member, said that, as repre-
senting a large seaport, the great portion


of whose population were deeply inte-
rested in fishing, he had for some years
felt the serious need that existed for some
such Establishment as that which his
hon. Friend had just described. He had
no intention of going into details; but,
as' to principles, he thought that those
recommended by the Royal Commission
last year appeared conclusive. That
Commission, he would remind the House,
was a strong one. It had a great many
subjects to consider, and in consequence
it made a great many recommendations.
He hoped that they would hear from the
right hon. Gentleman the President of
the Board of Trade a sympathetic and
favourable response to the appeal which
had just been made. He (Mr. E.
Clarke) would simply mention two
matters which had occurred within the
last five years, and which would illus-
trate the need of such a Board. One
was the question of trawlers' lights.
With regard to these lights, a series of
orders of the most contradictory cha-
racter had been issued from time to
time, and one after the other had been
cancelled. These orders had no doubt
been what was considered best by those
who had drawn them up ; but the fisher-
men had thought that those who had
discussed the rules had not had a suffi-
cient knowledge of the subject with
which they they were dealing. In 1883
there occurred a'very remarkable instance
of sudden legislation passed through
Parliament without any discussion at
all. There was the Merchant Shipping
Bill, which, in that year, was read a
second time in the House of Lords on
the very day it was printed, and it was
also read a second time in the House of
Commons on the day it was presented
to the Members of that House. There
was no opportunity of discussing it, and
when it was read a second time the
Minister in charge of it said it had better
be read a third time at once, and from
the day the Bill was passed till 1884 the
Board of Trade was diligently endea-
vouring to find a means of exonerating
the fishermen from the provisions of the
Act. It would be a very desirable thing
if there was some Department appointed
to consider, in concert with practical
men, the provisions passed into law; nor
did he think that the proposals made
necessarily involved any real increase of
the charge, because at present these
questions undoubtedly were scattered


57 The~ Fiuhiny Industrims







59 Te Fishing Industries {COMMONS}


over various Departments. A little ar-
rangement and modification might be
made, probably without any real increase
of the charge, while it would prove
much more satisfactory than was the
case at present.
Sin SAVILE CROSSLEY said, he
would express a hope that the House
would extend to him that kind in-
dulgence which a new Member invari-
ably received at its hands. The hon.
Baronet (Sir Edward Birkbeck) had put
his case forcibly and clearly, while he
was ably seconded by the hon. and
learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. E.
Clarke). He (Sir Savile Crossley) felt
it incumbent upon him to say a few
words on the Resolution, because his con-
stituents felt very strongly on the ques-
tion, and were more largely interested in
the fishing trade than any other division
in the country. He might mention also
that, at a large meeting held last night
in the division which he had the honour
to represent, a Resolution was passed in
favour of the subject brought forward by
the hon. Baronet. That Resolution he
(Sir Savile Crossley) hoped would be sup-
ported by everyone in the House. The
representations that had been made to
the Board of Trade had not been
thoroughly satisfactory to the shipping
interest. He had no desire to rake up
the past; but he must say that the fish-
eries had suffered very'much owing to
the Department of the Board of Trade
not having been able to devote very
much time to the fishing interest. All
questions connected with the fishing
trade required more going into than,
perhaps, the questions arising from any
other trade. The hon. Member for East
Norfolk went into the subject of the
great development of the fishing trade
during the last few years; there was no
doubt that many developments had been
made in boats and nets. He (Sir Savile
Crossley) had great pleasure in support-
ing the Resolution, because it was moved
by one very well disposed towards the
fishing interest. It was unnecessary for
him to remind the House of the services
which the hen. Baronet had rendered
the fishing interest. He would, how-
ever, say one word why they should
have in this matter the support of hen.
Members below the Gangway on the
other side (the Irish Members). The
English Members merely asked that
England should possess the same privi-
Mr. Edward Clarke


lege which Ireland and Scotland had
enjoyed for many years, and, above all,
they asked to be put on a fair footing
with foreigners. In our case our
fishermen had no Central Board which
would give them advice; and the re-
sult of that was, as every hen. Member
knew, that in all questions where the
foreign fishing-boats came into contact
with ours, the foreign boats had
the best of it in matters of law. He
referred to the Report of the Deep
Trawl Fishing Commission, issued last
year. In that Report it would be found,
in page 37, that Scotland and Ireland
both possessed a Fishery Board, and the
Irish Board was allowed to regulate all
kinds of fishing, and to make such bye-
laws as were deemed necessary. Eng-
land, unfortunately, had no such Board.
Now such an Authority should be created
for England at once, and be constituted
as a Department of the Board of Trade
or Home Office, and upon it should be
conferred the same powers of making
bye-laws as were now possessed by the
Irish and Scotch Fishery Boards. The
Commissioners recommended that such
a Central Authority should be created,
and also that the Scotch Board should
have similar powers as the Irish Board;
and, thirdly, that a similar Authority
should be made for England, and that a
statutory power should be conferred
upon the Board to give statistics. The
House of Commons, a few nights ago,
had the opportunity of becoming ac-
quainted with the great value of labour
statistics in the speech of the hen. Mem-
ber for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh).
The House had also shown its apprecia-
tion of those statistics, by the support
which it gave to the Motion of the hon.
Member. He would remind the House
that, as far back as 1866, when the Com-
missioners reported, they investigated
the mode of fishing then in use. In
1878 the Commissioners recommended
the collection of statistics; and in 1886,
they expressed regret that no statistics
had been furnished. They pointed out
that, although eight years had elapsed
since the collection of the statistics was
recommended, yet that they were still
without them. He (Sir Savile Crossley)
ventured, most humbly, to appeal to the
right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of
the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Heneage),
and above all to the Board of Trade, to
carry out the recommendations of the


(Eng~land and Wa~aes). 60






61 The Fisling Industries


Commissioners. He felt sure the House
would not be satisfied to wait another
eight years before the recommendations
so often put forward were carried out.
In conclusion he begged to thank the
House for the patient manner with
which it had heard his remarks.
SIR HENRY TYLER said, he cor-
dially supported the Resolution. The ob-
ject which it aimed at was really a ques-
tion of "justice to England," which,
with larger fishing interests at stake,
did not enjoy advantages that had been
conceded to Scotland and Ireland years
ago. It was very much to be regretted
that they had no better statistics for
England than those already furnished.
The best statistics of which he had any
knowledge were those which had been
published by the Board of Trade; but
they only related to fish conveyed
inland by railway, and not to the
total amount caught. Those statistics
were brought out in February last year,
and he hoped that a similar collection
would shortly be presented to Parlia-
ment. Looking at the figures conveyed
in those Returns, he found the number
of tons of fish conveyed inland from the
fishing ports had increased to 248,000
in 1884; whilst in Scotland the increase
the same year had been 38,000 to 68,000
tons; and in Ireland from 5,933 tons to
7,888 tons, making a total increase for
the Three Kingdoms from 240,000 tons in
1879 to 325,000 tons in 1884. Fisher-
men had the sympathy of all classes.
Everybody know something of, though
few fully appreciated, what they had to
endure. Theyhad to carryon their labour
in fogs and in storms; they had to
trust to their chances, and often they had
bad luck, and every circumstance con-
nected with their lives created the live-
liest sympathy. Fishing was an industry
which had increased especially through
the work of trawling, and he believed
that, as far as experience had hitherto
gone, the more fish there were brought
from the sea the more there seemed to be
to catch. Another consideration of the
matter was this, that the fisheries of the
country gave employment to 120,000 or
150,000 men. The fisheries round about
our coasts were of great value in other
ways; for instance, they formed a nur-
sery for the sailors of our Navy. Thus
a very great deal depended upon this
great industry. The extension of rail-
ways had given a great impetus to the


trade of fishing, because it enabled good
markets to be found for fish all over the
country. They wanted a Department
very much which would look after the
interests of the industry, and provide
those engaged in it with a better know-
ledge of the habits of fish and of the
ways and means of taking fish. Whilst
all the other industries of the country
were more or less in a state of depres-
sion, the fishing business was the only
one which was comparatively flourish-
ing. He considered that the Depart-
ment recommended by his hon. Friend
should be created, because it was of
the first importance. He had great plea-
sure in supporting the Motion of his
hon. Friend.
MR. JOHNSTON said, he thought
the House would pardon him if he said a
few words on the Resolution of the hon.
Baronet the Member for East Norfolk.
He had until lately been an Inspector
of Irish Fisheries, from which position
he had been compulsorily retired under
somewhat peculiar circumstances. He
certainly should like to see some of the
functions of the Irish Fishery Board ex-
tended to England, and all the powers
for controlling the fisheries of the coun-
try consolidated in one Office, instead of
various organizations being called into
play. He had listened with the greatest
possible interest to the speech of the
hon. Baronet who had brought forward
this proposal. InIreland the Inspectors
of Fisheries were Inspectors of the sal-
mon as well as of the sea fisheries; and
he hoped that the same system would
prevail in England. In Ireland the
Fishery Commissioners found the great-
est assistance from the Coastguard, who
supplied returns of the number of men
and boys employed in the Sea Fishe-
ries. He hoped that Her Majesty's
Government would see their way to
granting what the hon. Baronet had so
ably asked for; and, that being so, he had
great pleasure in supporting his Motion.
MR. SAUNDERS said, he hoped that
the House would favourably consider
the Resolution which had been brought
forward in connection with our fishe-
ries, which could only be effectively
dealt with by such a Board as recom,
mended. They required, for instance,
to know the merits of trawling and
its effect on fishing beds. This was a
matter which required great investi-
gation. Matters of this kind could


I MARCH 5, 1886 1


(England and T~ales). 62






(England and Wales). 64


not be settled by individuals, however
eminent. They could only be satisfac-
torily dealt with by an independent
Board. The members of such a Board
should be men who had practical know-
ledge and were connected with the fish-
ing trade. The men who were connected
with the trade on the Humber were
particularly anxious that the Motion
before the House should be carried, and
that there should be a large practical
element on the Board. If the Board
had on it members who went to sea
themselves, and were capable of making
a Report on the fisheries, so much the
better. It need not be an expensive
Board, for he believed that very capable
service could be rendered at moderate
salaries. The adoption of the Motion
of the hon. Baronet would give a great
deal of satisfaction to a very deserving
portion of Her Majesty's subjects.
Mn. MARK STEWART said, he could
speak with some little practical know-
ledge of the advantages which had been
derived in Scotland from the adoption of
a scheme on the South-West Coast of
Scotland which was now proposed for
England. He thought, however, that
it would be more advantageous to the
whole country if, instead of having
three separate Boards for the Three
Kingdoms, there was one Central De-
partment. There were many interests
constantly clashing, and he did not think
sufficient attention was given by any
one Department to the interests under
their charge. Not that he wished to
insinuate or make any reflection against
either the Scottish or the Irish Fishery
Boards. But there were so many ques-
tions affecting the fishing interests of
the three adjacent coasts that it would
be most advantageous to have a Central
Board, so that matters might be regu-
lated more smoothly than at present.
The question of trawling was a most
important one. Previous to 1883 they
sustained very great damage indeed
from the system of trawling then prac-
tised. No doubt great improvement
had been effected, but at the same time
there were improvements still to be
carried out. There was the question of
foreign trawlers, who cut up the oyster
beds on the South-West Coast of Scot-
land, and utterly depopulated them.
Then as to the herring industry, which
was no doubt the most important ele-
ment in the Scottish fishing industry,
Mr. Saunders


great havoc had been done in some
places by the injurious modes of fishing
practised. It was conjectured that the
fish had been frightened off the coast;
but it was the fact, whatever the cause,
that in numerous places where fish
were abundant a few years ago they
were now greatly diminished in num-
bers. These matters, as affecting the
food supplies of our ever-increasing
population, and also the interests of the
persons engaged in fishing, deserved
the greatest attention which could be
given to them.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD or
TRADE (Mr. MUNDELLA) said, he was
sure the House and the country were
grateful to the hon. Baronet for the
deep interest he had taken in this im-
portant industry; and he was grateful
that he did not expect him to go into
the details of the scheme for settling
the question. The Government were
quite prepared to accept the principle of
the Motion. After reading the Report
of the Trawling Commission, it was
impossible to resist the evidence before
them that something must be done to
centralize the work of that very im-
portant industry. At present it was
spread over some six or seven Depart-
ments and Sub-Departments, and there
was a conflict of jurisdiction and some-
times a conflict of instructions. The
industry had thus been hampered and
embarrassed, and it was very desirable
that that state of things should come to
an end. He doubted, however, whether
it would be necessary to constitute a
Statutory Fishery Board. A Central De-
partment might be constituted, which
would meet all the requirements of the
case. They had had at the Home Office
a succession of most able men as In-
spectors of Fisheries-Mr. Frank Buck-
land, Mr. Walpole, and Professor Hux-
ley. Those were men of the highest
scientific attainments who had not con-
fined their attention to salmon fishing,
but had rendered valuable service to the
sea fishing industry. It was singular
that the two kinds of fishing had ever
been separated, and that there should
have been an Inspector and an Assistant
Inspector, an outdoor Inspector, or
officer, at the Board of Trade; that the
Admiralty should have rights of inter-
ference; that the Home Office should
regulate all fish that migrated to the
sea, and some other Department was re-


63 1 The Fishinzg Inzdustries


{COMMONS}






65 The Fishing Industries {MAnRC 5, 1886} (England and Wales).


sponsible for fishing at the mouth of
rivers. That was an anomalous state
of things, and they were quite ready to
co-operate with the hon. Baronet to
bring it to an end. He found that the
official statistics were now, for the first
time, being thoroughly dealt with. They
were now in the hands of Mr. Giffen,
and he, with the aid of the officers of
the Board of Trade, and the Admiralty,
and the Customs, had published the first
batch of statistics. The registration of
fishing vessels was regulated by the
Mercantile Department of the Board of
Trade. There had been a good deal
of controversy about lights for fishing
vessels; but he hoped the matter was
finally settled, and that he would not be
called upon to issue any new orders.
What they desired to do was to con-
solidate the functions of the Home
Office, the Board of Trade, and the Ad-
miralty, so far as they referred to sea
fishing, and put them under the Board
of Trade. He was not ambitious to
take it; but it was impossible to sepa-
rate it from that Department. The De-
partment would be consolidated in that
respect, and the Admiralty would place
their vessels under the instructions of
the Board of Trade in order to maintain
the police of the sea. They would pro-
bably find it necessary to appoint an-
other Inspector; and they then would
constitute it a Department which, with
a head and with the two chief Fishery
Inspectors, would be responsible for the
whole of the administration of the De-
partment. They would have the advan-
tage of having the head of the Statis-
tical Department, the head of the Marine
Department, the head of the Harbour
Lights Department, and the FisheryIn-
spectors, so that they would combine in
one Department the whole of the ma-
chinery necessary for its proper conduct.
No doubt whoever was appointed chief
should be a practical man. He was
glad to say that an International Con-
vention had been agreed upon between
Germany, Belgium, Denmark, France,
Holland, and themselves, for regulating
tho police for the North Sea Fisheries.
He believed good results would flow
from that Convention. One very im-
portant matter had been settled by
Lord Rosebery with respect to the Con-
ference which was to take place at
Whitsuntide. There was nothing the
fishermen suffered from more than the
VOL. CCCIII. [THIRD SERIES.1


temptation and demoralization of the
floating grog-shops. Some of the Powers
had held aloof on this matter; but he
was glad to say Lord Rosebery had
pressed it very closely upon the North-
ern Powers, and they had come to an
agreement that at Whitsuntide this
matter should be the subject of a Con-
ference. He knew there would be some
advantage from a consolidation of the
Boards of the three countries; but he
very much doubted whether Scotland or
Ireland would be willing to be merged
with the English Fishery Board. Both
the Scottish Board and the Irish Board
were doing their work exceedingly well;
but this might be done with advantage.
After a conference of the scientific au-
thorities, and indeed all the authorities
of the three countries, there ought to
be a mutual correspondence on all mat-
ters bearing on improvements decided
upon. Already, he believed, both the
Scottish and Irish Fishery Boards were
willing to aid in this matter. He hoped
what he had said would give satisfaction
to the House. He was not able to say
that all this machinery should be per-
fected at once; but the Board of Trade
would set about it immediately. It
should be remembered, however, that it
would be necessary to pass a measure
through Parliament to transfer the
powers of the Home Department to the
Board of Trade. He was sure the hen.
Baronet would think they would derive
considerable advantage from employing
the staff of the Home Office and the
Board of Trade, and not limiting them
to fresh water fisheries. He hoped that
what the Government proposed to do
would show that the Government had a
thorough sympathy for an important in-
dustry carried on by the bravest men.
He trusted the Department would be
arranged so that there would be no
difficulty in anyone addressing it re-
ceiving prompt attention and an answer
to any question, and that this might be
done without any great increase of ex-
penditure. It was, he believed, more a
matter of organization than expenditure,
and the putting an end to a divided re-
sponsibility, which had worked a good
deal of hardship upon the fishermen.
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker
do now leave the Chair," put, and
agreed to.
SUPPLY-considered in Committee,
D






{COMMONS} Telegraph Contract, e.


Committee report Progress; to sit
again upon Monday next.

POST OFFICE, SUBMARINE TELE-
GRAPH CONTRACT (ST. VINCENT TO
THE WEST COAST OF AFRICA).
RESOLUTION. [ADJOURNED DEBATE.]
Order read, for resuming Adjourned
Debate on Question [4th March],
"That the Contract, dated the 19th day of
January 1886, for the Construction of a Sub.
marine Telegraph Line from the Island of St.
Vincent to the West Coast of Africa be ap-
proved."
Question again proposed.
Debate resumed.
Mn. HENNIKER HEATON: I rise
to oppose the Motion, and to move, as
an Amendment, that the whole question
should be referred to a Select Committee
of the House. This, Sir, is a contract
between Her Majesty's Government on
the one hand and the Eastern Telegraph
Company on the other. In considera-
tion of the latter constructing a cable
from the Island of St. Vincent to the
West Coast of Africa, the British Go-
vernment agrees to pay a subsidy of
19,000 a-year for 20 years to the
Eastern Cable Company and its satellite,
the Brazilian Company, both Companies
being controlled by the same persons.
Now, I want to direct the House's par-
ticular attention to the fact that this
contract is dated 19th January, 1886;
and it is solemnly stated therein that a
cable of an approved character shall be
constructed, and on condition of its con-
struction this large subsidy of 380,000
shall be paid. Now, I am prepared to
prove that on the day when the contract
was signed, a rival Company, the India-
rubber and Gutta Percha Company,
without any subsidy or promise of sub-
sidy, had completed a cable over this
very line. Now, the object of a subsidy
is to make up or make it possible for a
Company to construct a cable. Where,
then, was the necessity of this subsidy ?
It seems to me, therefore, that the Trea-
sury Minute on this subject is entirely
misleading. A reference to The Times
newspaper of 13th October last will
prove that the rival Company to that
which obtained this contract had de-
spatched a steamer with the cable on
board to construct this line from the
Island of St. Vincent to the West Coast


of Africa, and on to the Cape of Good
Hope, and from thence to Australia. A
further reference to The Times of 21st
November following proves that, on
that day, the cable had been completed
all but a small section along the coast.
Yet, on the 18th January of this year,
the contract to construct a cable was
signed by the British Government with
a rival Company, which, for so doing,
was to be paid this large subsidy. Now,
we are informed that the Eastern Tele.
graph Company purchased the cable
already laid, and takes the Government
bonus. And who is the moving spirit
in this transaction ? A gentleman whose
name does not appear in the contract,
and yet a gentleman, I venture to say,
who is greatly distrusted and looked
upon with grave suspicion when matters
of this kind have to be settled. The
gentleman I allude to is Mr. John
Pender. As an Australian, I must say
we have had rather too much of this
gentleman's monopolies in the Southern
Hemisphere; and, in asking for a Select
Committee to examine into all matters
connected with this contract, I think I
am making a very reasonable request
of the Government. The contract which
the House is now asked to sanction
binds the British Government to pay
380,000 to John Pender and Company
for the construction of a telegraph cable
from St. Vincent to the West Coast of
Africa. John Pender and Company
have already a line of cable on the East
Coast of Africa, for which the Govern-
ment pay a subsidy of 25,000 a-year.
By now obtaining the contract for the
West Coast of Africa, John Pender and
Company will obtain a practical mono-
poly; and I am sure that the House will
not submit to a contract of this nature
being entered into without the most
searching inquiry. I believe that the
time has come for the Government of
this country to own these cables that
connect England with our great Colo-
nies; and the effect of this contract is to
throw the monopoly of the cable to
Australia into the hands of John Pender
and Company. While these large sub-
sidies are being paid to one Company,
there is no hope of inducing the Govern-
ment to construct cables themselves. I
have already given Notice of Motion, to
the effect that the Government shall
construct an alternative line of cable
round the West Coast of Africa to the


67 Post Oflee, Submarine~






{MARCI 5, 1886} Telegraph Contract, fJc. 70


Cape of Good Hope; but if this contract
be approved my proposal cannot be
adopted. As announced in The Times
of the 13th of October, the Gutta Percha
Company agreed to construct the cable
from St. Vincent to the West Coast of
Africa, and thence to the coast of Aus-
tralia without subsidy. Without warn-
ing John Ponder and Company came in,
and, after the cable had beenlaid down,
purchased the rights of the Company,
and now endeavours to obtain a large
sum of money from the Government as
a subsidy for the construction of the
cable, although, as a matter of fact, it was
already laid down and almostin operation.
I can prove that the Treasury Minute on
this matter is erroneous, and I have
other information in my possession which
is more suitable for a Select Committee.
I am desirous of avoiding saying any-
thing offensive, and I shall not state the
source of my information except to the
Select Committee; but I can readily
prove that this contract is of a character
which, to use a very mild term, deserves
inquiry. If the Government grant an
inquiry, as I maintain they are bound
to do, they will be enabled to examine
various Papers, to call witnesses, and
obtain other evidence, which will enable
them to understand the transaction
which has taken place, and that evidence
will show that the transaction is not an
honest one. I do not say one word
against the Members of the late Govern-
ment; but this contract was entered into
just before they left Office, during a time
of Election excitement, when they were
influenced by information put before
them of an erroneous character. In con-
sequence of the monopoly granted to
John Pender and Company, a rival Com-
pany find that the concession granted to
them is of no avail, and that they are
entirely in their power. Imaintain and
shall prove that this contract is unneces-
sary; and, at a time when we are all
suffering from depression at home, it is
not a fitting time to throw away 20,000
a-year on the West Coast of Africa.
And I maintain that the time has come
for these subsidies to cease. As I said
before, the time has come for the British
Government to construct and own cables
to all parts of Her Gracious Majesty's
Dominions. I find that, if this subsidy
is granted, it will make a total of
54,000 a-year given by the British
Government to Pender and Companyfor


the construction of African cables. Seven
years ago a contract was made with
Mr. Pender to construct a cable down
the East Coast of Africa, and for that he
receives, and will receive for the next
20 years, the enormous sum of 35,000
a-year from the British Government.
He has already received 250,000 ster-
ling for that work, and now we propose
to give him another 250,000 for the
West Coast of Africa. I ask, Sir, for a
Select Committee of Inquiry, and I
pledge myself to produce documents to
prove that the cable was laid, or a great
portion of it; that the remaining portion
was on board ship and being completed;
that the subsidy was neither asked nor
demanded, and it is not necessary to
pay it. The late Government is not to
blame, because, after the excitement of
the General Election, the Ministry had
much to do to prepare to meet Parlia-
ment. If the present Government will
not grant the Committee, I shall con-
sider that they do not wish to have the
true and full facts made public. I beg
to move that the matter be referred to a
Select Committee of the House.
Amendment proposed, to leave out
the word approved," in order to insert
the words "referred to a Select Com-
mittee,"-(.2Mr. lenniker Heaton,)-in-
stead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the word
'approved' stand part of the Ques-
tion."
SmI HENRY HOLLAND said, that
of course he did not know what line the
Financial Secretary to the Treasury
would take with regard to this subject;
but if he might tender his advice, it
would be not to allow this contract to
be referred to a Select Committee. He
was somewhat surprised at the insinua-
tions which had been thrown out by
the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr.
Henniker Heaton), who had stated that
these transactions, which had been en-
tered into by the late Liberal Govern-
ment and by the late and present Go-
vernments, were not honest. The hon.
Member further said that the decision
of the late Government was arrived at
during a period of Election excitement.
On the contrary, he could tell him that
one of the first matters which came be-
fore him (Sir Henry Holland) as Finan-
cial Secretary to the Treasury in July,
long prior to the period of Election ex-
D 2


69 Fost Offlco, Submarine






Telegraph Contract, c. 72


citement, was the question of this tele-
graph. He found that it had been
decided by the preceding Liberal Go-
vernment that it was absolutely neces-
sary to lay down this telegraph line to
the West Coast of Africa, and tenders
had been actually called for and sent in.
That was an opinion which had been
arrived at by the then Secretary of State
for War, the Admiralty, and the Colonial
Office; and he ventured to think that it
was hardly possible for the Treasury,
under such circumstances, to refuse to
consider the question of this contract,
even if the opinion of the late Govern-
ment had differed from that of their
Predecessors. The hon. Member had
averred that when this question came
before the late Government a Company
had started to lay down a cable. It was
true that the India-rubber Company had
agreed with the Portuguese Government
to lay down a line from St. Vincent; but
the line was a quasi-foreign one, with
which Her Majesty's Government might
not have been able to make satisfactory
terms, and over which they had no con-
trol. The hon. Member said that this
Eastern Company had now established
a monopoly, and could charge what rate
they pleased; but if he looked at the
contract he would see that the rates
were laid down and fixed by it, and
many other useful and necessary condi-
tions were imposed upon them. The
hon. Member said that the India-rubber
Company were ready to work without a
subsidy. So far from this being the
case, they tendered for a higher subsidy
than the Eastern Company. Both Com-
panies tendered, and they both required
a subsidy. He denied that any line, or
part of a line, had been laid in July
and August last, when the terms of this
agreement were under discussion. The
arrangement with Mr. Pender's Com-
pany was, he believed, practically settled
long before the India-rubber Company
had laid any line. He might say, with-
out breach of confidence, that very great
care and trouble were expended in con-
sidering this question. The late Secre-
tary of State for War, the late Colonial
Secretary, and the late Chancellor of
the Exchequer, and he himself, went
again and again over the question of
the amount of the tenders and the
amount of the subsidy; and the result
was that it was reduced to 19,000,
which was lower than the subsidy re-
Sir Henry Holland


quired by the India-rubber Company.
The Treasury had no option but to take
the best terms they could obtain from
the Company that would lay down the
line to the West Coast of Africa. The
Government had to say which Company
offered the best terms, and after all the
attention and examination which had
been given to the matter it would be
idle to refer it now to a Select Commit-
tee. He therefore hoped that the Secre-
tary to the Treasury would adhere to
that contract.
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER) said,
that the charge of the hon. Member for
Canterbury was that they were enter-
ing into a contract that was not an
honest one. The question had been be-
fore three different Governments for a
succession of years, and it had been
most carefully considered. The matter
involved two points-namely, a question
of policy and a question of internal ad-
ministration. On the first question, he
frankly conceded that the House had
both the right and the duty to express
its own opinion. That question was
whether it was for the political and the
commercial interests of this country that
a telegraph cable should be laid to the
West Coast of Africa. If the House
referred to the Treasury Minute of
February, they would find that the
Treasury were of opinion that that
scheme would be of advantage both to
the West African Colonies and to this
country, commercially and politically.
The question was raised, in the first
instance, under the former Administra-
tion of the present Prime Minister; and
it was considered by the Cabinet of that
day that it was for the interests of this
country that there should be telegraphic
communication with our Settlements in
West Africa. Anybody who was aware
of the grave public inconvenience that
had been suffered from the want of that
means of communication would be of
opinion that that Cabinet decided
rightly. That decision was confirmed
by the Cabinet of Lord Salisbury, and
again by the present Government. Of
course the House might, if it chose,
overrule the judgment of three succes-
sive Governments, and of those who,
being responsible for the Military,
Naval, Colonial, and commercial in-
terests of this country, were all of opi-
nion that it was necessary to have that


1COMMONS1


71 Post Ofice, ~Subnzarinee






73 Post Ofh'6, SubLmarine IMAnon 5, 18861 Telegrajph, Contract, 4,. 74


telegraphic communication. The next
question was as to the terms of the con-
tract for securing this telegraph. The
Treasury, in its permanent officers, pos-
sessed a staff of the highest capacity
and experience, which was totally in-
capable of a dishonest transaction. Their
fault, if it was a fault, was their desire
to safeguard the public interests, and to
avoid, if they could, all undue expendi-
ture; and it was not likely that the
House could enter into a contract on
better terms than the permanent offi-
cials of the Treasury could do. The
Treasury invited tenders, and they re-
ceived three-one of 23,000, another
of 29,000, and another as high as
102,000. They decided to accept the
one for 23,000. There was a difficulty
in the way, arising in connection with
the Island of St. Vincent not being
British territory; but, that difficulty
having been got over, the Company
was in a position to complete the con-
tract. Negotiations were opened, and
he must express his admiration of the
manner in which the late Chancellor of
the Exchequer was enabled to reduce
the subsidy to 19,000, of which the
Colonies themselves would contribute
5,000. The English Government were
only to pay half-rates; they were to
have priority for their messages, and to
have the right to nominate a Director to
protect their interests; while in time of
war they were to take possession of the
telegraph. The House was asked to
withhold its confidence from the Trea-
sury, and to refer the contract to a Select
Committee. That was not the mode in
which the Public Business either had
been or ought to be conducted. The
hon. Member for Canterbury, before he
concluded, had rather unveiled what
was behind. The hon. Member said he
was very anxious that there should be
another cable laid to Australia, and that
the Government should own all those
submarine cables. They knew what
that meant. They knew that the Go-
vernment paid between 10,000,000 and
11,0000 sterling for the purchase of the
telegraphs, which, he supposed, were
not worth above half that sum. And
now probably some people would like
the Government to buy up the sub-
marine telegraphs also. He, however,
hoped that the Government would do
nothing of the kind. The policy now
being pursued of paying the Company


for the work they did was the wisest
and the best that the Government could
adopt. He objected to the appointment
of a Select Committee, which, in fact,
was a declaration on the part of the
House that the Treasury was not com-
petent to do its work. He submitted
the whole matter to the House as a
question pf public policy, which had
been decided unanimously by three
successive Governments, without any
element of Party conflict entering into
the consideration of the subject.
Mn. LABOUCHERE said, he must
congratulate his hon. Friend on having
adopted the true and proper method
pursued by Secretaries to the Treasury
in answering inconvenient proposals.
No one supposed that the Treasury offi-
cials were anything but honourable men;
but when a contract was made and sub-
mitted to the House, surely the House
had a right to consider whether it was
wise, expedient, or desirable. The Se-
cretary to the Treasury had himself ex-
plained how sharply the House ought
to look after the Treasury and other Go-
vernment officials. Reference had been
made to the large sum of money which
had been paid for taking over the tele-
graph system of this country. Why was
this? Suchalarge amountof expenditure
was due to the fact that the House left
this matter to be settled by the Treasury
and other officials; and it seemed to him
that the hon. Gentleman proved that the
House could not trust Government offi-
cials in matters of this kind, but that
they ought to carefully overhaul every
contract brought before them. The
hon. Member who brought this subject
forward did not complain that the con-
tract was dishonest on the part of the
Treasury, but that the contract was dis-
honest on the part of those with whom
the Treasury dealt. The Secretary to
the Treasury said there were two points
to look at one a question of policy,
whether it was to the political and com-
mercial interest of this country to have
telegraphic communication with our
African Colonies. He admitted that it
was desirable to get this communication
as cheaply as possible. What were the
allegations made by the hon. Member ?
It was proved that three years ago the
Treasury and the postal authorities
thought that it was desirable that a
cable should be laid between the Island
of St. Vincent and the West Coast of







Telegraph Contract, 4-e. 76


Africa. Tenders were submitted to the
Treasury by various Companies. The
lowest tender was that of the Eastern
Telegraph Company; and the contract
was signed on the 19th of January to
construct and lay a cable from the Island
of St.Vincent to the West Coast of Africa
for the sum of 19,000per annum during
20 years. Was this cable then con-
structed and already laid by another
Company? The hen. Gentleman said
no. Would the hon. Gentleman accept
the news in the columns of The Times as
a fair statement of the facts? In The
Times of the 13th of October there was
an account of a ship being sent out with
a cable by the India-rubber Cable Com-
pany to lay this cable. There was a
dinner and the usual festivities after-
wards. In The Times of the 21st of
November there was a statement that
the cable had been laid. Consequently,
the allegation was this-and it was a
clear one-that the India-rubber Com-
pany did lay a cable from the Island of
St. Vincent to the West Coast of Africa;
and the reason was that they were
obliged to lay it because they had land
lines and small coast lines connecting
Bathurst with the Cape of Good Hope.
They were really obliged to lay the cable
in order to fructify their land lines.
When the contract was signed, there-
fore, with the Eastern Telegraph Com-
pany to construct and lay a cable for
19,000 a-year, he asserted that, unless
those two statements in The Times should
be contradicted, a cable had been con-
structed and laid by the India-rubber
Company. The India-rubber Company
had the exclusive concession of laying
cables to the Island of St. Vincent.
The Eastern Company, when they
put in a contract below that of the
India-rubber Company, knew very well
that they could not carry out the con-
tract; but when the India-rubber Com-
pany found that they could not obtain a
contract the Eastern Company came
and said-" Sell us your cable; then we
will get a contract to construct and lay a
cable from those two points, and we will
obtain 19,000 per annum." The point
which he wished to urge on the atten-
tion of the House was that a cable had
been laid without any contract with the
Government, and without any subsidy
from the Treasury. This statement was
in The Times, and he could not see the
object which the Government had in
Mr. Labouchere


entering into a contract with the East-
ern Company when the woi k had been
done by another Company without a
contract two months before. It looked
like reckless benevolence on the part
of the Government. Because the cable
had been sold by one Company to
another, they had said-"Let us give
you 19,000 for 20 years." That was,
altogether, 380,000. The whole sys-
tem of subsidy was radically bad. It
was of far more importance to Australia
than to us that there should be tele-
graphic communication between that
country and England. This route was
a connecting link in the telegraphic
communication between the two coun-
tries. We ought to consider what our
Colonists desired, and ought not, by
such subsidies, to prevent them from
laying cables of their own. Two prin-
ciples should guide the Government in
making such contracts-the desires of
the Colonists, and the desirability of
buying in the cheapest market. We
already paid to the Eastern Company
35,000 for telegraphic communication
on the Eastern Coast of Africa ; and now
we were called upon to pay another
large sum because this Company had
suddenly bought a cable laid by and be-
longing to another Company. In these
circumstances, he thought the hon.
Member was justified in denouncing this
contract.
MR. BADEN-POWELL said, that
the last speaker had said that the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade did not
know everything; but his own speech
had shown, in the most extraordinary
manner, that he did not know every-
thing. He had said that the Australian
Governments had objected to this con-
tract, and that the hon. Member for
Canterbury (Mr. Henniker Heaton) was
speaking on behalf of these Govern-
ments. He had yet to learn that the
Australian Colonies had expressed any
opinion whatever as to this cable,
which only went to the West Coast of
Africa.
Mn. LABOUCHERE said, this was a
link in one of the telegraphic routes
with Australia.
MR. BADEN-POWELL said, this
cable did not connect Australia with this
country, and it was not likely that it
ever would.
MR. HENNIKER HEATON said, it
was one of the projected lines.


COMMONS I


75 Post Offlee, Suzbmarinee






{MAhCn 5, 1886} Telegraph Contract, ic. 78


MR. BADEN-POWELL said, that he
had been in conversation with the official
representatives of the Australian Colo-
nies, and none of them mentioned that
they had this route in view. Something
had been said about the contract having
been accepted after part of the cable had
been laid; but the fact was that the
matter was virtually settled two months
before the India-rubber Company began
to lay any cable. He would like some
explanation of the statement that the
two hon. Members who opposed the con-
tract had met outside and arranged what
to say inside the House.
MR. LABOUCHERE said, he was in
the Smoking Room, and simply asked
the hon. Member for Canterbury to ex-
plain his case, and he did so, telling
him what he meant to say.
MR. BADEN-POWELL said, he be-
lieved that there was something at the
back of what had been said, and that it
was a purely personal matter, for he
knew that one hon. Member, at any
rate, had had business dealings with the
Syndicate which had acquired the con-
tract.
MR. LABOUCHERE said, he could
assure the hon. Member that he had not
the slightest idea who was in the Syndi-
cate, and, in fact, knew nothing of the
matter until he came into the House.
Mn. BADEN-POWELL said, although
he was not aware of any intention to
run the cable to Australia, yet he be-
lieved it was intended to carry it to
South Africa; and, if so, it would give
that Colony the great advantage of an
alternative route. When in Bechuana-
land last year with Sir Charles Warren,
they experienced great inconvenience
from the want of telegraphic communi-
cation with England. During the criti-
cal state of affairs in Egypt, and the
threatened war with Russia, their tele-
graphic communication was stopped for
one month. He hoped, however, that
the Government would take precautions
against the evils that might arise in the
way of excessive rates if both those
routes were in the future to fall into the
hands of the same Company; and if
that was done he believed the contract
ought to be passed, as he believed it was
wise, expedient, and valuable.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD
or TRADE (Mr. MUNDELLA) said, the
negotiations for this contract had been
commenced by the last Liberal Govern-


ment and concluded by the late Govern-
ment on the most economical terms. It
was a reasonable and a good contract;
and he considered that a very good bar-
gain had been effected by the country.
He could not understand how the
hon. Member for Northampton (Mr.
Labouchere) could, after a short confabu-
lation in the Smoking Room, come down
and oppose a step which had been taken
after careful investigation and long con-
sideration. The contract was put up for
tender, and one tender was for 23,000
a-year, another for 29,000 a-year, and
a third for over 100,000 a-year. The
late Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose
ability in this transaction everybody re-
cognized, reduced the first tender to
19,000, and at that sum the contract
was concluded, special care being taken
in regard to the terms and conditions,
and it being arranged that 5,000 a-year
should be paid by the Colony towards
the 19,000. Under such circumstances,
he hoped the House would not allow
itself to be led away by the hon. Member
for Northampton, whose criticisms, he
thought, had a little animus in them, but
would determine to ratify the contract.
Sin MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH said,
that the responsibility of this arrange-
ment rested entirely upon the late Go-
vernment, and mainly upon himself. He
had never taken more trouble with any-
thing in his life; and he believed that in
the contract, as cut down to 19,000,
the country had an exceedingly good
bargain. This cable might save many
hundred thousand pounds by securing
telegraphic communication between this
country and the Governors of our Colo-
nies in Africa, thus tending to guard us
from Native wars. For commercial pur-
poses, too, it would be of great value;
and he did not believe that we could
lay out 14,000 a-year-for that was
the real amount-better than in the pre-
sent contract.
Mn. MOLLOY asked whether it was
not a fact that the India-rubber Com-
pany, a solvent Company, were prepared
to lay the cable at their own expense,
and that some person stepped in, pur-
chased the contract, and then came to
the House for a large subsidy? He
thought that the Government was bound
to give a clearer statement than they
had done with regard to this contract.
Unless a more satisfactory explanation
was furnished he should oppose the Vote.


77 Post Offlee, Submatrine






{COMMONS Fisheries (Eels) Bill.


Mn. MUNDELLA begged to state, by
permission of the House, what had been
already stated half a dozen times, that
the India-rubber Company asked for
29,000 a-year; that they only laid a
small section of the cable, and when they
got the contract for the whole distance
they handed it over to another Company,
who undertook to do it for 19,000.
MR.ILLINGWORTH wished to know
why only 5,000 out of 19,000 was to
be charged to the Colonies? He thought
that sum might have been divided
equally between the Colonies and the
Mother Country. If, instead of dealing
with our kith and kin in South Africa,
we had been dealing with India, in all
probability a large share of the burden
would have been put on the Indian Ex-
chequer. Those who were primarily in-
terested in this matter were the large
owners of land ia South Africa. They
would have the main benefits. It was
for the interest of that large landed
aristocracy that many of our wars were
carried on; but in these arrangements
the heaviest share of the burden was in-
evitably thrown on the Mother Country.
SIR FREDERICK STANLEY said,
that the hon. Gentleman was quite mis-
taken, and could not have looked at the
Motion that was before the House. This
contract related not to South Africa, but
to the West African Settlements. The
fervid imagination of the hon. Gentle-
man had run riot with regard to large
landholders. He did not know that the
proprietors in the West African Colonies
possessed even the traditional "three
acres and a cow."
MR. ILLINGWORTH: Ultimately
the cable is to go to the Cape of Good
Hope.
SIR FREDERICK STANLEY: Yes;
but the objection was made to the Vote
now proposed, not to that which might be
asked ultimately. The hon. Gentleman
thought 5,000 was very little for the
Colonies to pay; but the fact was that
the matter had been very carefully
looked into, and the proportion of
5,000 was allotted on a fair basis.
He believed this contract would be the
means of securing the prosperity of a
large portion of Africa, and saving a
large outlay.
In reply to Mr. BRUNNER,
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-
SURY (Mr. HENRY H. FowLEn) said,
A'r. Molloy


that the India-rubber Company asked
between 20,000 and 30,000. The
Company proceeded to lay a small por-
tion of the cable-about one-sixth of the
whole-and ultimately when they got
the complete contract they sold the cable
they had laid, with their rights, to a
Company with whom his right hon.
Friend opposite arranged better terms.
Question put.
The House divided: -Ayes 199;
Noes 34: Majority 165. (Div. List,
No. 19.)
Main Question put.
Resolved, That the Contract, dated the 19th
day of January 1886, for the Construction of a
Submarine Telegraph Line from the Island of
St. Vincent to the West Coast of Africa be ap-
proved.

FRESH WATER FISHERIES (EELS)
BILL.-[Lords].-[BILL 128.]
(Mr. Broadhurst.)
SECOND READING.
Order for Second Reading read.
THE UNDER SECRETARYorSTATE
FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr.
BROADHURST), in moving that the Bill
be now read a second time, said, that it
was rendered necessary by a decision of
the High Court that eels were included
in the 11th section of the Act of 1880
relating to fresh water fisheries. That
decision was against the desire of all
those who were interested in the sub-
ject, and of the Fishmongers' Company.
The Bill would prevent a loss of 20,000
spent on food imported from Holland.
Next to Holland the largest importation
was from Ireland. The close time would
begin on March 15 and end on June 15,
and it was important that the Bill should
become law before the 15th instant. He
hoped, therefore, that the Bill would be
read a second time.
MR. JOHNSTON said, it was unusual
to proceed with the second reading of a
Bill that had not been printed, and he
hoped that this would not be made a
precedent; but, under the circumstances
stated by the Under Secretary for the
Home Department, he would not oppose
the second reading.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Bill be now read a second
time."-(Mr. Broadhurst.)
Motion agreed to.


79 F7iresh T~ater






{MARCH 5, 1886} Works (Water, oe.) Bill. 82


Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted for Mondayy next.

METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS
(WATER SUPPLY, &c.) BILL.-[BILL 34.]
(Sir James M' Garel-Hogg, Mr. Bryce, Sr George
Russell, Colonel Hughes.)
SECOND READING. [ADJOURNED DEBATE.]
Order read, for resuming Adjourned
Debate on Amendment proposed to
Question [24th February], "That the
Bill be now read a second time."
And which Amendment was, to leave
out the word now," and at the end of
the Question to add the words "upon this
day six months."--(Mr. Coope.)
Question again proposed, "That the
word 'now' stand part of the Question."
Debate resumed.
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF
STATE FOR THE HOME DEPART-
MENT (Mr. BRoADHunsT) said, he took
occasion to state that the objection of
the Government to the measure had been
mainly founded on the fact that it en-
abled the Metropolitan Board of Works
not only to oppose Bills which they might
think to be against the interest of the
ratepayers, but also to promote Bills re-
lating to the water supply of the Metro-
polis, and to other Metropolitan pur-
poses. Since the adjournment of the
debate, however, the hon. Baronet who
was in charge of the Bill had agreed that
he would, in Committee, omit such por-
tions of it as empowered the Board to
take the initiative in legislation. The
Bill would then only enable the Board
to oppose measures which they might
deem to be adverse to the interests of
the Metropolis. In these circumstances,
Her Majesty's Government would not
further oppose the second reading.
SIR HENRY HOLLAND said, he de-
sired to offer a few observations to the
House before they assented to the
second reading of a Bill against which,
as a ratepayer, he strongly protested.
As regarded the Water Companies, their
opposition to the Bill was, of course, con-
siderably diminished by the proposed
alterations which were to be made in
Committee; but he should like to be sure
that he understood correctly the exact
alterations. He understood that the
words make application to Parliament
and may," in Clause 2, were to be omit-
ted, and also the further words "or the


acquisition of the undertakings of any
such Companies were to be struck out.
In other words, that the Metropolitan
Board of Works undertook not to initiate
any Bill for providing a new supply of
water to the Metropolis, or for purchas-
ing the existingWater Companies. Well,
the Water Companies would in the
future, if the Bill so altered were to be-
come law, find the Metropolitan Board
supporting instead of opposing them.
Therefore, so far as the Water Compa-
nies were concerned, they might almost
desire that the Bill, as amended, should
be passed. But he (Sir Henry Holland)
still objected to this Bill as a ratepayer.
The Bill still gave wide and vague
powers to the Board to oppose applica-
tions with respect to Companies autho-
rized to provide a supply of water and
the undertakings of such Companies,"
and to institute "inquiries and negotia-
tions," and to saddle the expense, neces-
sarily very heavy, of such opposition and
inquiries upon the Metropolitan rate-
payers without their having been pre-
viously consulted. Why should the
Metropolitan ratepayers be placed on a
different footing to the municipal rate-
payers in other places ? .Opposition and
inquiries, if this Bill passed, might be
made very unnecessarily and unwisely,
at the instance of a small majority of
the Board, and the ratepayers would be
saddled with the costs. He protested, as
a ratepayer, against this Bill; and no-
thing, he freely admitted, had astonished
him more than the apathy of the London
ratepayers upon this question.
SIR JOSEPH PEASE observed, that
if the Bill was to be emasculated in the
way proposed, it would merely leave
the Metropolitan Board in a position to
oppose legislation relating to the water
supply emanating from anybody but
themselves. He was one of those who
was not satisfied with the present water
supply; and he thought that, consider-
ing all things, the House would exercise
a better display of. wisdom in deciding
that this Bill should be placed in the
background. It was far better that the
water supply question should be dealt
with as a whole by the Government, than
in the piecemeal fashion in which this
measure proposed to grapple with a
great question.
Mn. BOORD said, he had no know-
ledge of the arrangement which had been
come to between the Government and


81 Metropolitan Board of






Works (Water, sc.) Bill. 84


his hon. and gallant Friend (Sir James
M'Garel-Hogg) who had charge of this
measure until he heard the statement
just made; but the consideration which
he had given to what had been stated
appeared to him to make the measure
scarcely less desirable than it was be-
fore. The Bill had been described very
frankly as a measure to enable the Me-
tropolitan Board to do legally what they
had hitherto done illegally; and the
Amendment it was intended to adopt in
Committee still left the objectionable
power in the hands of the Board,
who were to decide on their own motion
what was desirable and what was unde-
sirable. As had been said, the Metro-
politan Board of Works was not a di-
rectly elected Body; and they were,
therefore, not in a position to properly
exercise the powers they were claiming.
This should not be lost sight of, nor
should they forget that if the Bill was
thrownout theMetropolitan Board would
still be able to oppose any measure
which it might be inexpedient to pass,
or which might be improperly put for-
ward. Besides that, he regarded it as the
duty of the Government to protect the
ratepayers, in common with the rest of
Her Majesty's subjects, from the pas-
sage of undesirable Bills of the kind in
question. He certainly should be in-
clined to move as an Amendment that
the debate should be further adjourned
for six months.
THE SECRETARY or STATE FOR
THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr.
CIIILDERs) observed, that the hon. Gen-
tleman who had just sat down said there
was always the Government to fall back
upon in these matters. He must protest
against the idea that when there was a
responsible Body like the Metropolitan
Board of Works, specially appointed to
deal with these Metropolitan questions,
it should be passed by and the Govern-
ment appealed to. The Metropolitan
Board was a Body with a representative
character, and they should not be passed
over in matters affecting the Metropolis.
It had been agreed to leave out that
part of the Bill which related to the
power to promote water schemes; and
surely the Metropolitan Board were a
more fit Body than the Government to
oppose such schemes if necessary.
MR. MURDOCH said, he hoped the
House would not pass the Bill. There
was a growing feeling in the Metropolis
Mr. Boord


that the Board entered too much into
legislation. It was constantly bringing
Bills before Parliament, and constantly
spending the money of the ratepayers;
and he could not help thinking the Board
laid claim to a greater amount of popu-
larity than it possessed. The general
feeling of the ratepayers of the Metro-
polis was a hope that the Government
would at no distant date deal with the
water question; and it was matter of
great regret that the Bill of the right
hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Assheton Cross),
which had received the assent of the
ratepayers and the Water Companies,
was not proceeded with.
BARON DIMSDALE said, that, in
view of the promised reform of the go-
vernment of London, this Bill ought not
to pass. The proper settlement of the
question ought to be left either to the
new Municipality or to the Government
of the day.
MR. EVELYN said, he trusted the
House would reject the Bill, even as
amended. It was said it would be hard
that the duty of protecting the Metro-
politan ratepayers should devolve on the
Government; and therefore the matter
must be thrown upon the Metropolitan
Board. But he very much doubted whe-
ther the ratepayers of the Metropolis had
the confidence in the Metropolitan Board
which the Home Secretary supposed.
There was another body of men who
might be trusted to look after the inte-
rests of their constituents in these mat-
ters, and that was the Metropolitan
Members. The Metropolitan Board was
a moribund Body, and was likely to pass
away very soon, and therefore ought not
tc be entrusted with further powers.
SIn ROBERT FOWLER observed,
that the hon. Member (Baron Dims-
dale) was an eminent Director of
Water Companies, which accounted for
the knowledge he had displayed on the
subject. There must be some Body
charged with looking after these mat-
ters, and he contended that the proper
Body was the Metropolitan Board. As
long as they had that Body they must
trust it. Whatever changes might be
made in the government of London,
there would still be wanting a Body to
represent the different interests of the
Metropolis in the way that Board did.
He thought the work of the Metropo-
litan Board had, as a rule, been well
done, and the Board was entitled to the


83 Heefropolilan Boardl of


{COMMONS}






85 fdetropolitan Board of (MARcn 5, 1886} Works ( Water, &e.) Bill. 86


gratitude of the ratepayers for what it
had done.
MR. T. H. BOLTON said, if they
wanted a Body to manage these things
satisfactorily, it should be a Body as
unlike the Metropolitan Board as they
could possibly have. As a Metropolitan
Member, he ventured to say that his
constituents looked with very great
suspicion upon the action of the Metro-
politan Board, especially in connection
with questions of this character.
Sm JAMES M'GAREL-HOGG said,
when he brought the Bill in he gave his
reasons for it, and entered into past
legislation, and showed why the Board
considered this Bill necessary. If the
Metropolitan Board of Works found in
any case that the Acts of Parliament which
related to their work were misconstrued,
they intended, notwithstanding that, to
go on and do their best for the rate-
payers of the Metropolis. He entirely
disclaimed the idea that the Metropo-
litan Board of Works was a moribund
Body, or that he was a moribund Chair-
man. The Body over which he presided
would, notwithstanding the jeers and
threats and gibes with which it had been
assailed outside, go on doing their best
for the ratepayers; but he ridiculed the
idea that before introducing a Bill of
this kind they should consult the rate-
payers. Did they want a mass meeting
in Hyde Park? The Board had been
enlarged and strengthened by 13 or 14
additional members elected under the
Act of last year; and evidently Parlia-
ment did not regard it as a moribund
Body. They represented the interests of
the ratepayers at large; and he con-
tended that it was a very good thing for
the Metropolis to have some Body which
was not afraid of Gas or Water Com-
panies, or, indeed, of any other mono-
polies. Unfortunately, however, the
Auditor had taken a different view of
the case, and it was to make clearer the
144th section of the Act that this Bill had
been introduced.
Mn. KIMBER said, he objected to
giving the Metropolitan Board such
powers. He submitted that the duty of
watching the water question, which he
admitted was a very serious one, lay
with the Government. He begged to
oppose, in the interests of the Metro-
politan constituents he represented, the
second reading of the Bill. The Bill
would promote speculativelitigious pro-


ceedings in Parliament, such as had al-
ready involved the Metropolitan Board in
great cost- 17,000-which the Auditor
had disallowed, and which had been paid
under a special Act passed by the House
on an undertaking by the Chairman
not to take further action on the sub-
ject except with the consent and ap-
proval of the Government. He objected
to the Board interfering in this matter.
It was nota duty delegated to the Board;
that contention was proved by the in-
troduction of this Bill, by which the
Board sought to obtain a power that
they did not possess. He objected to
the Bill as practically entrusting the
Metropolitan Board of Works with a
roving commission to oppose Water
Bills. The proper course was for the
Board to examine or watch any projects
they thought fit, and not to enter on
litigious Parliamentary contests at the
expense of the ratepayers without their
consent, but to bring to the attention of
the Government anything objectionable
for their interference, so that, if neces-
sary, it might be dealt with on the re-
sponsibility of the Governmentof the day.
THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL
GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JESSE
CoLLINGs) said, that the hon. Member
seemed to have based his argument on
the original Bill, and to have forgotten
the objectionable passages which had
been left out of it. To cast the duty
of watching the water question upon
the Government would surely be a piece
of centralization which would not be in
the interest of the ratepayers at all. He
thought that this matter was plain to
all those who had taken part in muni-
cipal matters in the Provinces. When-
ever any Company applied for powers,
whether Tramway, Railway, Water, or
Gas Companies, it was the duty of the
Local Authority to watch over the in-
terests of the ratepayers in a manner
that no other authority could do. The
hon. Member had said that the Metro-
politan Board of Works had not that
power. He thought by that statement
the hon. Member surrendered the whole
question. This was evidently a rate-
payers' question. The power of these
private Companies was well known; and
individual ratepayers had positively no
chance single-handed in resisting their
demands. He admitted that the Me-
tropolitan Board of Works was not their
idea of what a Representative Body






(Ireland) Bill. 88


should be, but it was the best they
possessed; and if these powers were
granted to the Metropolitan Board of
Works they would, in any reform of the
government of London, be handed over
tothe newly-constituted authority, what-
ever it might be. He did not think that
anyone who admitted that ratepayers
needed protection from private Com-
panies could refrain from coming to the
conclusion that some such powers as
were asked for in this Bill should be
conferred on the best Representative
Body that existed, pending a better
form of municipal government.
SIR RICHARD WEBSTER said, the
hon. Member had stated that in all
other places the Local Authorities pos-
sessed the power of looking after the
interests of the ratepayers in opposing
Bills promoted by private Companies.
The hon. Member, however, must not
forget that this power could only be
exercised under the control of the Muni-
cipal Funds Act of 1872, and that before
such opposition could be undertaken by
the Local Board or any other Governing
Authority the consent of the ratepayers
must have been obtained. The objec-
tion, as he understood it, of hon. Mem-
bers who opposed this Bill was that
power was given to the Metropolitan
Board of Works without any control on
the part of the ratepayers. If there had
been in this Bill any restriction of the
kind which existed in the Bill of 1872
the matter might have been different;
but, as it stood, the Bill gave a simple
and uncontrolled authority to the Metro-
politan Board of Works. He recognized
that the Metropolitan Board of Works
had done much useful work, whatever
faults it might have; but, on the other
hand, when they saw what had happened
with regard to this Bill, he thought it
should not be passed without a strong
case being made out in support of it.
He submitted that no strong case had
been made out. He understood that in
1879 the hon. Member for the Horn-
sey Division of Middlesex (Sir James
M'Garel-Hogg) said that he would never
put his name to any Bill of the kind
without consultation with the Govern-
ment, and that the right hon. Member for
Hampstead (Sir Henry Holland) with-
drew his opposition to the Bill in conse-
quence of the statement then made. If
so, this Bill was undoubtedly promoted
without the consent of the Government.
MAr. Jesse Collings


He thought it was open to serious ques-
tion whether or not the position of the
Metropolitan Board was such that it
ought to be trusted with what might
be called a roving commission to oppose
Water Bills. While it was proper that
there should be an authority able to
watch over the interests of the rate-
payers and water consumers, he sub-
mitted that no sufficient case had been
made out for allowing the Metropolitan
Board of Works without control to
spend the money of the ratepayers in
this manner.
SIn JAMES M'GARE.L-HOGG said,
he thought that the hon. and learned
Member had not looked into the case.
He had never said anything which could
bear the construction put upon it by the
hon. and learned Member. He had said
that he would never bring in a Bill
which would make the Metropolitan
Board in any way liable for an expen-
diture of money, and that this Bill was
simply to give to the Metropolitan
Board of Works the power.
MR. JAMES STUART said, he
wished merely to state that he should
oppose the Bill, because the Metropolitan
Board of Works was, as he believed it
ought to be, a moribund Body.
Question put.
The House divided:-Ayes 76; Noes
130: Majority 54.-(Div. List, No. 20.)
Words added.
Main Question, as amended, put, and
agreed to.
Second Readingput of for six months.

TREES (IRELAND) BILL.-[BILL 30.]
(Mr. Gilhooly, Mr. Timothy Harrington, Mr.
Marum, Mr. Pyne, Mr. O'Hanlon.)
SECOND READING.
Order for Second Reading read.
MR. GILHOOLY, in moving that the
Bill be now read a second time, said, its
object was to give tenants in Ireland a
property in trees planted by them which
they had not registered.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Bill be now read a second
time."--(ir. Gilhooly.)
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Mr.
CHARLES RUSSELL) said, that in the ab-
sence of the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant he might state that the Go-


87 Trees


COMMONS}






89 Colonial Postal


vernment would offer no objection to the
second reading of the Bill. He thought
the objects aimed at by the Bill were
highly to be desired, and it was of great
importance that everyinducement should
be given to tenants to plant trees upon
their holdings. It might be a question
whether some simpler mode than that
provided in the Bill for certain purposes
should not be provided; but that was a
question for Committee.
MAJOR SAUNDERSON said, that,
speaking on behalf of the Irish land-
lords, he had no objection whatever to
the Bill; on the contrary, he thought
it would be extremely useful. The plant-
ing of trees had done good, and he only
regretted it was not more universally
followed in Ireland. Every encourage-
ment ought to be given to the Irish
tenants to improve the country side by
planting trees. If some method could
be devised of ascertaining the trees that
were planted, it was well it should be.
While some modifications might be in-
troduced into the Bill in Committee, he
saw no objection to the second reading
being taken.
Mn. MARUM observed, that a mea-
sure similar to this was before the House
last April, and Lord Ashbourne gave his
assent to the principle of it. He was
gratified to find that Her Majesty's
Government had agreed to the second
reading of the Bill. He might add that
the Irish Members would be happy to
receive any suggestions as to the details
of the Bill in Committee.
Motion agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted for Mlonday next.
MO TI ONS.
-o-
METROPOLITAN COMMONS PROVISIONAL
ORDER BILL.
On Motion of Mr. Broadhurst, Bill to con-
firm a Scheme, under "The Metropolitan
Commons Act, 1866," and The Metropolitan
Commons Amendment Act, 1869," relating to
Chislehurst Common, ordered to be brought in
by Mr. Broadhurst and Mr. Secretary Childers.
Billpresented, and read the first time. [Bill 132.]
SALMON AND TROUT FISHING (IRELAND).
Ordered, That a Select Committeebe appointed
to consider the operation of the existing Law
regulating Salmon and Trout Fishing in Ire-
land, and to report whether any Amendments
in the Law are desirable.-(Mr. Sexton.)
House adjourned at a quarter before
Twelve o'clock till Monday next.


HOUSE OF LORDS,

Monday, 8th March, 1886.


Several Lords-Took the Oath.
MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILL Committee -
Report-Drill Grounds* (24).
COLONIAL POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS-
PACIFIC MAIL STEAMERS-VAN-
COUVER AND HONG KONG.
QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
THE EARL OF HARROWBY, on rising,
in pursuance of Notice, to ask the Se-
cretary of State for the Colonies, Whe-
ther Her Majesty's Government have ac-
cepted the proposals which have been
recently made for the establishment of a
line of first-class British mail steamers
from the city of Vancouver, the Pacific
terminus of the Canadian Pacific Rail-
way, to Japan and Hong Kong, when
the Pacific Railway is opened for through
traffic from Great Britain in the month
of June next? said, that the reasons
which had induced him to bring this
matter forward were, he need scarcely
say, entirely dissociated from any per-
sonal connection with the Canadian
Pacific Railway or with the proposed
line of mail steamers, as he had nothing
whatever to do with either. He had
been led to refer to this question on the
present occasion, solely owing to official
information received by him as a Mem-
ber of the late Government. His interest
in this matter was further awakened by
the fact that a few years ago he served,
with his noble Friend (the Earl of Iddes-
leigh), on the Hudson's Bay Company
Committee of the House of Commons,
when the question of opening up these
regions was fully considered, and when
that most important step was recom-
mended by the Committee, which was
subsequently acted upon-of closing
the territorial Sovereignty of the Hud-
son's Bay Company, which had been
nobly and worthily conducted for many
years-andof making these vast centres a
part of Her Majesty's magnificent Domi-
nion of Canada. It had been a matter
of the greatest delight to him to watch
how much more rapidly than they could
have hoped their Canadian fellow-sub-
jects had been spreading Christianity
and civilization over this, their great


IMARCH 8, 18861


Arrangements. 90






89 Colonial Postal


vernment would offer no objection to the
second reading of the Bill. He thought
the objects aimed at by the Bill were
highly to be desired, and it was of great
importance that everyinducement should
be given to tenants to plant trees upon
their holdings. It might be a question
whether some simpler mode than that
provided in the Bill for certain purposes
should not be provided; but that was a
question for Committee.
MAJOR SAUNDERSON said, that,
speaking on behalf of the Irish land-
lords, he had no objection whatever to
the Bill; on the contrary, he thought
it would be extremely useful. The plant-
ing of trees had done good, and he only
regretted it was not more universally
followed in Ireland. Every encourage-
ment ought to be given to the Irish
tenants to improve the country side by
planting trees. If some method could
be devised of ascertaining the trees that
were planted, it was well it should be.
While some modifications might be in-
troduced into the Bill in Committee, he
saw no objection to the second reading
being taken.
Mn. MARUM observed, that a mea-
sure similar to this was before the House
last April, and Lord Ashbourne gave his
assent to the principle of it. He was
gratified to find that Her Majesty's
Government had agreed to the second
reading of the Bill. He might add that
the Irish Members would be happy to
receive any suggestions as to the details
of the Bill in Committee.
Motion agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and com-
mitted for Mlonday next.
MO TI ONS.
-o-
METROPOLITAN COMMONS PROVISIONAL
ORDER BILL.
On Motion of Mr. Broadhurst, Bill to con-
firm a Scheme, under "The Metropolitan
Commons Act, 1866," and The Metropolitan
Commons Amendment Act, 1869," relating to
Chislehurst Common, ordered to be brought in
by Mr. Broadhurst and Mr. Secretary Childers.
Billpresented, and read the first time. [Bill 132.]
SALMON AND TROUT FISHING (IRELAND).
Ordered, That a Select Committeebe appointed
to consider the operation of the existing Law
regulating Salmon and Trout Fishing in Ire-
land, and to report whether any Amendments
in the Law are desirable.-(Mr. Sexton.)
House adjourned at a quarter before
Twelve o'clock till Monday next.


HOUSE OF LORDS,

Monday, 8th March, 1886.


Several Lords-Took the Oath.
MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILL Committee -
Report-Drill Grounds* (24).
COLONIAL POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS-
PACIFIC MAIL STEAMERS-VAN-
COUVER AND HONG KONG.
QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
THE EARL OF HARROWBY, on rising,
in pursuance of Notice, to ask the Se-
cretary of State for the Colonies, Whe-
ther Her Majesty's Government have ac-
cepted the proposals which have been
recently made for the establishment of a
line of first-class British mail steamers
from the city of Vancouver, the Pacific
terminus of the Canadian Pacific Rail-
way, to Japan and Hong Kong, when
the Pacific Railway is opened for through
traffic from Great Britain in the month
of June next? said, that the reasons
which had induced him to bring this
matter forward were, he need scarcely
say, entirely dissociated from any per-
sonal connection with the Canadian
Pacific Railway or with the proposed
line of mail steamers, as he had nothing
whatever to do with either. He had
been led to refer to this question on the
present occasion, solely owing to official
information received by him as a Mem-
ber of the late Government. His interest
in this matter was further awakened by
the fact that a few years ago he served,
with his noble Friend (the Earl of Iddes-
leigh), on the Hudson's Bay Company
Committee of the House of Commons,
when the question of opening up these
regions was fully considered, and when
that most important step was recom-
mended by the Committee, which was
subsequently acted upon-of closing
the territorial Sovereignty of the Hud-
son's Bay Company, which had been
nobly and worthily conducted for many
years-andof making these vast centres a
part of Her Majesty's magnificent Domi-
nion of Canada. It had been a matter
of the greatest delight to him to watch
how much more rapidly than they could
have hoped their Canadian fellow-sub-
jects had been spreading Christianity
and civilization over this, their great


IMARCH 8, 18861


Arrangements. 90







Arratngemenls. 92


and marvellous country. Speaking of
the position of the late Government
on this matter, he might say that
as regarded its main principles the
scheme for subsidizing this line of
steamers was very favourably entertained
by them. The scheme was brought be-
fore them in January, and it had, of
course, to be referred to the Depart-
ments of the Post Office, the Admiralty,
the War Office, and the Treasury, before
it could be finally approved. Whether
the late Government would have arrived
at a decision ultimately to support the
scheme he could not, of course, positively
state. He could only say that Her Ma-
jesty's late Advisers felt most favourably
towards it, and that they had great hopes
of being able to co-operate with the
Canadian Government in the establish-
ment of this great and most important
line of mail steamers. This subject, he
might observe in passing, was not in the
slightest degree one of a Party or of a
controversial character, and he had no
intention whatever of attacking noble
Lords opposite. His reason for bringing
the matter forward was that he thought
it possible that an expression of opi-
nion in their Lordships' House might
strengthen the hands of the Colonial
Office, and might show that parsimony
on the part of the Treasury was unwise,
and ought to give way, in the broader
interests of the Empire, to more generous
views. With their Lordships' permis-
sion he would state of what this scheme
consisted. It was proposed to start a
great line of mail steamers from the city
of Vancouver, the terminus of the Cana-
dian Pacific Railway, to Japan and Hong
Kong. This, he would at once say,
he felt would be to put the suitable
" crown" upon the Canadian Pacific
Railway scheme, one of the greatest and
most marvellous works of our time. It
was impossible to speak too highly of
the energy, the indomitable, zeal, and
patience of our Canadian fellow-subjects
in carrying the enterprise through.
They ought to be proud in this country
of having for their fellow-subjects men
who had been able to overcome so
successfully and so rapidly such great
difficulties as were opposed to them;
and when upon this subject how could
he omit to mention the names of those
two most distinguished gentlemen, Sir
John Macdonald and Sir George Ste-
phen, without whose governing capa-
The Earl of Zarrowby


city, determination, and foresight it was
difficult to conceive that this extraordi-
nary work could have been carried
through ? The railway, which would be
opened in June next was 3,000 miles
long, and it was hoped that by it ex-
press trains would be enabled to be run
from Quebec to the city of Vancouver-
from the Atlantic to the Pacific-in less
than five days during the summer time.
During the winter the link would be
furnished by the Intercolonial Railway
now completed in connection with the
other great line from Halifax to Quebec.
So that, unlike the United States Pacific
communication, passengers and goods
could be sent on our railway system
from the extreme winter Atlantic port
of Halifax to the Pacific Ocean. On
these works the Canadian Government
had spent 20,000,000 sterling, besides
giving large land subsidies. To show
the value of these great railways, he
might say that in 1861 it took 11 to 12
days for troops to go from Halifax to
the terminus of the Pacific Railway at
Quebec. At the time of the Red River
rebellion in 1870 it took 11 weeks to
convey troops from Quebec over Lake
Superior to the Red River, and 95 days
to transport them from Toronto to Win-
nipeg. These were now but trifling
portions of their great line-from the
Atlantic to the Pacific. Now the whole
of this vast district could be traversed
in six days. This was nothing less than
a revolution in the conditions of the
world and in the relations of Continents,
the results of which it was utterly im-
possible to estimate at present, but for
which statesmen should prepare them-
selves, and hasten to utilize without loss
of time for the safety and prosperity
of our common Empire. It was pro-
posed that the Imperial Government
should subsidize the line of mail steam-
ers from Vancouver to Japan and Hong
Kong, and thereby be enabled to convey
troops, stores for the Navy, and passen-
gers from Liverpool to the Pacific over
British territory, so far as the land
journey was concerned, in 13 or 14 days.
He might mention that in summer the
journey across the Continent from Mont-
real to Vancouver would occupy four to
four-and-a-half days, and in winter from
Halifax to Vancouver five-and a-half to
six days. The amount of the subsidy
asked from this country he would not go
into, but would only say that its payment


{LORDS}


91 Colonial Postal






Arrangements. 94


was to extend over a period of 10 years.
The line of steamers proposed to be
started would consist of first-class vessels
steaming 14 to 15 knots per hour, and
making the passage from Vancouver to
Japan and Hong Kong once every three
weeks, so that the journey from Van-
couver to Yokohama would be made in
less than 12 days' time. The result
would be that the journey from England
to Japan would be made in 26 days, and
that between England and Hong Kong
and Shanghai in 34 days. At the pre-
sent time the journey from England to
Yokohama in Japan, vid Brindisi, occu-
pied a period of 40 to 44 days, while vid
Gribraltar it took 46 to 53 days. Then
as to Calcutta, the journey for troops
from England vid Gibraltar to Calcutta
could not now be done in less than 38
days, while from Halifax to Calcutta
would be only 31 to 39 days, to which
would have to be added seven days for
the Atlantic voyage. As far as Australia
and New Zealand were concerned, the
line from San Francisco must, of course,
be the shortest; but there was good
reason to hope that if this line of mail
steamers was established a good deal of
trade would take place between Van-
couver, Australia, and New Zealand,
particularly when it was remembered the
advantage this route afforded to our great
railway system, with its command of a
great timber trade and its coal resources
as well. He believed there were many
enormous advantages to be derived from
the establishment of this mail route, and
one among the greatest would be the
encouragement of our commerce and our
friendship with those two most impor-
tant ancient Empires, Japan and China.
Nothing was more clear as to the politics
of the world in the future than that
Great Britain's greatpolicy was, and must
be, to do all in her power to maintain
the independence, the power, and the
prosperity of these two most remarkable
countries. Everything should be done
to draw closer the ties of friendship be-
tween us. Our people might benefit enor-
mously on both sides by such relations
between powerful and independent
States. To this great purpose a first-
class Royal Mail Line of steamers would
be a powerful aid. Another vast advan-
tage was that we should have an alter-
native line of communications, in the
event of European complications, to
India, China, Japan, and Australia


through British territory. In that re-
spect-the advantage of which was so
obvious and so overwhelming that he
need not dilate upon it-nothing could
exceed the importance of this scheme.
Among its other advantages would be
that supplies could be sent to the Fleet by
it, and that coal could be obtained in
Vancouver Island. Then, again, this
new railway could not fail very shortly
to open up fresh vast and fertile districts
to our surplus population; and anything
which called greater attention on the
part of our working classes to that part
of the world must be no slight advan-
tage to this country. As an inducement
to the Imperial Government to grant the
subsidy, special terms were offered for
the conveyance of troops and stores,
while emigrants' sleeping carriages con-
veying 30 to 40 persons would be run.
Even if there had not been these strong
and urgent reasons for this new mail
line, he must confess that he should
consider it a matter of no slight national
importance that the starting of their
magnificent steamers would, in a time
of unexampled depression in all our in-
dustries at home, give .employment
during three or four years to our lead-
ing shipbuilding yards. Whether the
terms of the proposed subsidy were just
or not he could not say; but, as the
Canadian Government had done so much
for this great and magnificent work, he
trusted that the Government of this coun-
try would look upon this proposal with
a favourable eye, and would help for-
ward the grand enterprise by every
means in their power.
THE SECRETARY or STATE Fon
THE COLONIES (Earl GRANVILLE)
said, that he entirely agreed with very
much, although not with all, that had
fallen from the noble Earl. He con-
curred with the observations of the noble
Earl that this was not a Party question,
and with what he had said as to the
energy and ability shown by Sir John
Macdonald, and Sir George Stephen, the
Chairman of the Company, in carrying
forward their great railway so expedi-
tiously and successfully. Individually,
and as Colonial Secretary, he should be
very glad if it were found practicable to
carry out the scheme of subsidizing mail
steamers proposed by the Dominion.
But the matter did not rest entirely with
the Colonial Office. It concerned the
Departments of the Treasury, the War


93 Colonial Postal~


IMARcii 8, 18861







95 Controverted


Office, and those of his Friends the First
Lord of the Admiralty and the Post-
master General. It appeared from a
Minute by his Predecessor (Sir Frederick
Stanley) that the late Cabinet had come
to the conclusion on principle to approve
of this project, and that inquiry should
be made on the whole subject by Repre-
sentatives of the different Departments
of the Government interested. He was
afraid that primd facie the opinions of
those Departments were not as favour-
able to the project as he could have
wished; but they made no Report, having
suspended their sittings in consequence
of the change of Government. The late
Government seemed in this case to have
somewhat departed from the course
generally pursued, not only by philo-
sophers and men of science, but also by
men of business, who were accustomed
first to inquire and then to decide. In
this case the opposite plan was adopted
-first to decide, and then to inquire.
There might, however, have been
reasons why delay might have been in-
convenient at that time. When he came
into the Colonial Office, this was one of
the first subjects which claimed his
attention. Her Majesty's present Go-
vernment, desirous of having full infor-
mation before them, had requested the
Committee to resume their sittings, which
they had done, and to give a complete
Report. The Report, when presented,
would receive the most careful considera-
tion on the part of Her Majesty's Go-
vernment, and the Dominion would
receive an answer without loss of time.
House adjourned at Five o'clock, till
To-morrow, a quarter past
Ten o'clock.


HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Monday, 8th March, 1886.


MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLs--Leave-Railway
and Canal Traffic, debate adjourned.
Ordered-First Reading-Solicitors Annual Cer-
tificate Duty [133].
Second Reading -Drainage and Improvement of
Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order* [119];
Crofters (Scotland) (No. 2) [118].
Committee-Labourers (Ireland) Acts Amend-
ment* [10]--.r. ; Trees (Ireland)* [30]-
1.P.
Committee-Report-Glebe Loans (Ireland) Acts
Continuance [107]; Freshwater Fisheries
(Eels) [1281.
Earl Granville


CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS.
Mn. SPEAKER informed the House,
that he had received from Mr. Justice
Field and Mr. Justice Day, two of the
Judges selected, in pursuance of The
Corrupt Practices Prevention Acts, 1854
to 1883, for the Trial of Election Peti-
tions, a Certificate and Report relating
to the Borough of Aylesbury, and the
same were read as follows:-
Aylesbury Election.
The Corrupt Practices Prevention Acts,
1854 to 1883.
To the Right Honourable the Speaker of the
House of Commons.
We, the Honorable Sir William Ventris
Field, knight, and the Honorable Sir John
Charles Day, knight, Justices of the High Court
of Justice, and two of the Judges for the time
being for the trial of Election Petitions in Eng-
land, do hereby, in pursuance of the said Acts,
certify that upon the second, third, and fourth
days of March 1886 we duly held a Court at
the County Hall, Aylesbury, in the County of
Buckingham, for the trial of and did try the
Parliamentary Election Petition for the Mid
Bucks or Aylesbury Division of the County of
Buckingham, wherein Frederick Charsley was
the Petitioner and Ferdinand de Rothschild was
the Respondent, which Petition prayed that it
might be determined that the said Ferdinand
de Rothschild was not duly elected or returned
a Member to serve in Parliament for the said
Division of the said County, and that his Elec-
tion and return were and are wholly null and
void.
And, in further pursuance of the said Acts,
we report that at the conclusion of the said
Trial we determined that the said Ferdinand
de Rothschild, being the Member whose Elec-
tion and return were complained of in the said
Petition, was duly elected and returned, and we
do hereby certify in writing such our determi-
nation to you.
And whereas charges were made in the said
Petition of corrupt and illegal practices having
been committed at the said Election, we, in
further pursuance of the said Acts, report as
follows:-
That no corrupt or illegal practice was proved
to have been committed by or with the know-
ledge or consent of any Candidate at such
Election, nor has any Candidate been proved
guilty by his Agents of any illegal practice
within the meaning of the Corrupt and Illegal
Practices Prevention Act, 1883, in reference to
such Election.
We further report that there is no reason to
believe that either corrupt or illegal practices
have extensively prevailed at the Parliamentary
Election for the 'Mid Bucks or Aylesbury Divi-
sion of the County of Buckingham, to which
the said Petition relates.
Dated this 4th day of March 1886.
WILLIAM V. FIELD.
JoiN C. DAY.


{COMMONS}


Elections. 96






The Orange Zodges. 98


NOTICE OF RESOLUTION.
-0 -
JAPAN-TREATIES WITH EUROPEAN
POWERS.
Mn. HANBURY (Preston): I beg to
give Notice that, on going into Commit-
tee of Supply upon the Civil Service
Estimates, I will call the attention of
the House to the effect of existing Trea-
ties between Japan and the European
Powers upon the Eastern trade of the
United Kingdom and the development
of Japan, and will move-
That, in the opinion of this House, the time
has arrived, in the interests of both countries,
for the withdrawal of those Treaties either
singly or in concert with other Powers."
Mn. SEXTON (Sligo, S.) : May I ask,
Sir, if the Motion which the hon. Mem-
ber proposes to make is in Order ? You
have already left the Chair on the Civil
Service Estimates, and I wish to know
if it is competent for any hon. Member
to make any further Motion ?
MR. SPEAKER: The Standing Order
to which the hon. Member refers, applies
when the Estimates are taken on Monday
or Thursday, and only on those days.

Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
BRITISH COMMERCIAL INTERESTS
ABROAD-DIPLOMATIC AND CON-
SULAR REPRESENTATIVES.
MR. HOWARD VINCENT (Sheffield,
Central) asked the Under Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs, What are the
instructions to Her Majesty's diplomatic
and consular representatives in Foreign
Countries with regard to the advance-
ment of British commercial interests,
and the assistance to be afforded to
British traders; and, if, in order to
assist the depressed condition of com-
merce and manufacture, Her Majesty's
Government will enjoin upon its offi-
cials abroad the necessity of increased
activity in this respect, encourage their
zeal by all possible means, and direct
Reports to be made, at least quarterly,
from all parts of the World, and pub-
lished for the information of the com-
mercial community throughout the Em-
pire, upon the condition of general
trade within their several districts, and
special Reports concerning British trade,
and the new markets which are likely
to offer an advantageous field for British
enterprise ?
VOL. CCCIII. [THIRD SERIES.]


THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Mr. BRYCE) (Aberdeen, S.):
Her Majesty's Diplomatic officers are
instructed to make the commercial in-
terests of Great Britain an object of
their constant attention," and the gene-
ral instructions for the guidance of Her
Majesty's Consular officers state that-
"It is the duty of Consular officers to pro-
tect and to promote the lawful trade of Great
Britain by every fair and proper means, and to
uphold the rights and privileges of British mer-
chants."
My hon. Friend will have learnt from
the speeches made on the 24th ultimo,
at the dinner of the Associated Cham-
bers of Commerce, at which, I believe,
he was himself present, that Her Ma-
jesty's Government had then already
taken steps with a view to a full con-
sideration of the manner in which the
services of Her Majesty's Diplomatic
and- Consular officers could be turned
to the best advantage for the promotion
of British trade abroad. Suggestions
on the subject have been invited from
the Chambers of Commerce, and my
hon. Friend may be well assured that
Her Majesty's Government are fully
sensible of the importance of prompt
action in this matter. I may add that
a Notice calling attention to it has been
standing on the Order Book for some
weeks past, in the name of the hon.
Member for Stafford, and now stands as
the first Order for April 2.

STATE OF IRELAND-THE ORANGE
LODGES.
MR. O'KELLY (Roscommon, N.)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he will
consider the advisability of disarming
the Orange Lodges in Ireland in view
of the speeches openly made by the
Orange leaders ?
Mn. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.): Be-
fore the right hon. Gentleman answers
the Question, perhaps he will be able to
say whether he is aware that Lord
Clarendon, then Liberal Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, took steps for the
arming of the Orangemen of Dublin in
the year 1848, in view of the action of
certain disaffected Irishmen ?
Mn. O'IELLY: Might I also ask the
right hon. Gentleman whether he is
aware that the Orangemen generally use
these arms for the shooting down of un-
armed men?


97 State of Ire~and--


JAVIARCH 8, 18861






The Orange Zodges. 98


NOTICE OF RESOLUTION.
-0 -
JAPAN-TREATIES WITH EUROPEAN
POWERS.
Mn. HANBURY (Preston): I beg to
give Notice that, on going into Commit-
tee of Supply upon the Civil Service
Estimates, I will call the attention of
the House to the effect of existing Trea-
ties between Japan and the European
Powers upon the Eastern trade of the
United Kingdom and the development
of Japan, and will move-
That, in the opinion of this House, the time
has arrived, in the interests of both countries,
for the withdrawal of those Treaties either
singly or in concert with other Powers."
Mn. SEXTON (Sligo, S.) : May I ask,
Sir, if the Motion which the hon. Mem-
ber proposes to make is in Order ? You
have already left the Chair on the Civil
Service Estimates, and I wish to know
if it is competent for any hon. Member
to make any further Motion ?
MR. SPEAKER: The Standing Order
to which the hon. Member refers, applies
when the Estimates are taken on Monday
or Thursday, and only on those days.

Q QUESTIONS.
-0-
BRITISH COMMERCIAL INTERESTS
ABROAD-DIPLOMATIC AND CON-
SULAR REPRESENTATIVES.
MR. HOWARD VINCENT (Sheffield,
Central) asked the Under Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs, What are the
instructions to Her Majesty's diplomatic
and consular representatives in Foreign
Countries with regard to the advance-
ment of British commercial interests,
and the assistance to be afforded to
British traders; and, if, in order to
assist the depressed condition of com-
merce and manufacture, Her Majesty's
Government will enjoin upon its offi-
cials abroad the necessity of increased
activity in this respect, encourage their
zeal by all possible means, and direct
Reports to be made, at least quarterly,
from all parts of the World, and pub-
lished for the information of the com-
mercial community throughout the Em-
pire, upon the condition of general
trade within their several districts, and
special Reports concerning British trade,
and the new markets which are likely
to offer an advantageous field for British
enterprise ?
VOL. CCCIII. [THIRD SERIES.]


THE UNDER SECRETARY or
STATE (Mr. BRYCE) (Aberdeen, S.):
Her Majesty's Diplomatic officers are
instructed to make the commercial in-
terests of Great Britain an object of
their constant attention," and the gene-
ral instructions for the guidance of Her
Majesty's Consular officers state that-
"It is the duty of Consular officers to pro-
tect and to promote the lawful trade of Great
Britain by every fair and proper means, and to
uphold the rights and privileges of British mer-
chants."
My hon. Friend will have learnt from
the speeches made on the 24th ultimo,
at the dinner of the Associated Cham-
bers of Commerce, at which, I believe,
he was himself present, that Her Ma-
jesty's Government had then already
taken steps with a view to a full con-
sideration of the manner in which the
services of Her Majesty's Diplomatic
and- Consular officers could be turned
to the best advantage for the promotion
of British trade abroad. Suggestions
on the subject have been invited from
the Chambers of Commerce, and my
hon. Friend may be well assured that
Her Majesty's Government are fully
sensible of the importance of prompt
action in this matter. I may add that
a Notice calling attention to it has been
standing on the Order Book for some
weeks past, in the name of the hon.
Member for Stafford, and now stands as
the first Order for April 2.

STATE OF IRELAND-THE ORANGE
LODGES.
MR. O'KELLY (Roscommon, N.)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he will
consider the advisability of disarming
the Orange Lodges in Ireland in view
of the speeches openly made by the
Orange leaders ?
Mn. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.): Be-
fore the right hon. Gentleman answers
the Question, perhaps he will be able to
say whether he is aware that Lord
Clarendon, then Liberal Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, took steps for the
arming of the Orangemen of Dublin in
the year 1848, in view of the action of
certain disaffected Irishmen ?
Mn. O'IELLY: Might I also ask the
right hon. Gentleman whether he is
aware that the Orangemen generally use
these arms for the shooting down of un-
armed men?


97 State of Ire~and--


JAVIARCH 8, 18861




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