Title: Interview with Indian Protest on Education (October 31, 1972)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00008184/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Indian Protest on Education (October 31, 1972)
Alternate Title: Indian Protest on Education
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: October 31, 1972
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00008184
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 47

Table of Contents
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Full Text


This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

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All rights, reserved.

This oral history may be used for research,
instruction, and private study under the provisions
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attention editor:

since side 1 and side 2 of this tape(LUM 47A) are in no way related--

side 1 is a monologue about an indian protest and side 2 is interviews

regarding lack of police protection in lumberton--i have typed a sep-

arate section for each side of the tape, numbering the pages of each

section independently.


LUM-47A Transcribed: 20-75
October 31, 1972 Johnson
SPEAKER: Lew Barton
SUBJECT: Indian Protest, Lumberton, NC

B: This is October 31, 1972. I am Lew Barton, recording for the Doris Duke

Foundation American Indian Oral History Program. Today we are in Lumberton,

North Carolina in front of the Board of Education building,where many Indians

from various parts of the United States have encamped throughout the night,

keeping a vigil in order to force the hand of the Roberson County Board of

Education, who to date have refused to talk with people of the American

Indian Movement about Lumbee educational problems. This is, indeed, a day

of history for our people. Everything that happens here today, everything

that has happened here in the past few days, is of tremendous importance.

On another tape, I have the remarks of various people who spoke at a meeting

last evening at the Sim-brook Cafe here in, rather, in Pembroke, North Caro-

lina, which is the Lumbee Indian capital, or cultural center, so to speak.

But now here in Lumberton, we are near Lumberton--the Board of Education

building is not located in Lumberton proper, but just outside, probably about

a mile away, such a matter. As we've said on other tapes, most of the stu-

dents of Lumbee parents are in the Roberson County system, although there are

some in the other five so-called city districts. This is a sight such as I

never thought would take place in this county. For years people have talked

about the Lumbee Indians "not being recognized" by the federal government, and

of course this is false, because we are recognized through an act of Congress,

dated in 1956 by the Congress of the United States and three years earlier by

the General Assembly of North Carolina, and our relations with other Indian

groups have been strenghtened over the years and is now at a peak because we

have contact with virtually every tribe of Indians in the United States. Many

of these tribes are represented here today and it is an awesome experience, to

Continued(page 2) SideI

be here, knowing that you are a Lumbee Indian. But it is also an inspiring

experience which says to me that the American Indians are cooperating more

closely, perhaps, than ever before in the history of this country. AIM, the

American Indian Movement, is directed by Dennis Banks, who has said that they

were on their way to Washington, this great caravan of American Indians, but

they stopped here, and after stopping here and taking stock of our problems,

he said the crisis, it appears, is not in Washington but right here in Lumber-

ton, North Carolina. And of course, Lumberton is the county seat of Roberson

County, North Carolina. We are going to try to record here today for the

Doris Duke Foundation, which is operating under the auspices of the Univer-

sity of Florida and its History Department under Dr. Samuel Proctor, we are

going to try to record the events that occur here this morning. With me is

Mrs. Brenda Brooks, who also works on the Carolina Indian Voice, a newspaper

of which I am editor, located in Pembroke. So, whatever happens from now on

will be sounds from what is happening, after I conclude these remarks. I

talked to Sheriff Malcolm G. McCloud's office this morning and wasn't able to

talk to the Sheriff himself, but I did talk to the secretary and I asked her

if...I asked her very frankly if she anticipated any cracked skulls and she

said, "We certainly hope not." She also said, however, that the Sheriff would

do whatever was necessary. I asked her if any new deputies had been brought

in from other areas and she replied in the negative. This certainly doesn't

preclude the possibility or even the probability that this may occur. Now

these Indians remained here in Lumberton throughout the night, although it

was a very cold night, many of them going to their cars, starting engines,

getting the...getting the heater going. It was very difficult to stay warm,

camped here as they were last night. But certainly his is a highlight in the

history of the Lumbee Indian because it says that we are no longer alone, that

Continued(page 3) sidel

other groups are interested in us, and other groups are standing with us,

that we no longer stand alone, and this, from my point of view, is of great

significance of what is happening here today, no matter what the outcome may

be. We are certainly praying to God that there will be no violence, however,

it is only fair to state that the American Indian Movement, is-perhaps the

most militant of all the Indian rights groups. For this reason, there are

some people in the county, particularly some other groups, some other ethnic

groups, who very definitely wish the American Indian Movement had never come

to this county, and understandably so. We will be trying to report what is

going on here. I have had phone calls throughout the night from news media

seeking information, from the Associated Press, from the United Press Inter-

national, and from individual reporters.

As I recorded this, I was interrupted by a phone call from WKIX in Raleigh,

North Carolina, and a news program interviewed me live, so now I can get

back to this recording. I have been requested by AP and also UPI to keep

them informed as to what is going on here, so the interest is great and

growing. This concludes the recording made on the actual grounds of the

Board of Education building near Lumberton, North Carolina, and I am adding

a note here later, a day later. This all occurred on October 31. I am

recording now on December 20, I am recording this note on December 20, and

of course, all this is a matter of history by this time. The American

Indian Movement, under Dennis Banks attended a Jim Holshauser for Governor

rally on December 1, 1972, and I have covered this in its entirety on another

tape, which will be in this batch. Now, the American Indian Movement, after

staying here for about a week, moved on, supported Jim Holshauser's candidacy

for governor, and at this date, Jim Holshauser has been elected the next gov-

Continued(page 4) 51sL

ernor of North Carolina, making it the first Republican governor to be elected

in the state of North Carolina in seventy years. Now, after the caravan of

Indians met over at the Jim Holshauser rally, where he concluded his rally--

incidentally, he began his campaign for the governorship right here in Pem-

broke, North Carolina, at the Lumbee Recreation Center, on Lumbee Homecoming

Day, June 4, 1970. This is where Jim Holshauser opened his campaign. And of

course, his last campaign, I mean his last appearance, last speech, was made

right here in Pembroke, North Carolina, and I have covered this.on another

tape. During this time, Dennis Banks and many of the Indians danced and sang
more chants and vent A to the front and endorsed thedoGovernor-elect. They

endorsed Jim Holshauser as Governor, as the next Governor of the State of

North Carolina, and of course at this date we know that Jim Holshauser was

elected. These are very exciting events, indeed, in the Lumbee River Valley.

I wanted to add another footnote, and that is that the Lumbee Indians...all

the Indians of Roberson and adjacent counties are officially designated as

the Lumbee Indians of North Carolina. However, there are those descendants

of the Tuscarora Indians who were originally of southeastern North Carolina,

and who removed later to Niagra Falls, New York after their disastrous defeat

in 1711 to 1713, but a few remained behind because these were the people led

by Tom Blunt, who were not on the side of the Tuscarora proper, but who allied

themselves instead, with the colonists. Now, after the conclusion of this

Tuscarora War of 1711-1713, these people, naturally, were not received back

into the main body of the Tuscarora with open arms and so they remained here

in the Lumbee River Valley, and they joined our people here, and they have

been here ever since. There is a segment of the group officially known as

the Lumbee Indians of North Carolina, which is striving and contending for

recognition as Tuscarora Indians instead of Lumbee Indians, so there is dis-

Continued(page 5) Side I

sension and this feeling about names. This group is led by...well, I would

say, in effect the leader of this group is Colonel Lockler, who is the Sec-

retary-Treasurer, actually, but who has taken a very active part and played

a very important role in the movement and it was most of the Tuscarora group

which took part in Dennis Banks and the American Indian Movement thing, and

you have noticed from your newspapers by this time these Indians went from

here to Washington, D.C., where they took over boldly,and completely, the

building of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and who held control of this building

for a length of time, and this was concluded by a twenty-point agreement

between them and the White House, and the White House took a soft stand on

the situation, whereas the Department of the Interior took a harder stand,

but the White House won out, of course, and so hey did make history and they

did effect some changes. It's all very interesting. I mentioned this in

this footnote simply for the sake of continuity, and because it will help

you to understand what has happened here and what happened in Washington,

D.C. Not all American Indians in the United States agree+ith the American

Indian Movement when they went into the Bureau of Indian Affairs building

and took over their records and the building and so forth, because there was

much destruction, estimated by some newsmen to run several million dollars,

and there were charges that some of the records had been destroyed, and some

American Indians, of course, have resented this. They saw no sense in des-

troying or misplacing the records, because, of course, the United States

government has to keep in contact and keep official records on each indivi-

dual American Indian group with whom they have direct relations.

Now, I want to make another distinction here in this footnote, and that

is this: There are two types of Indians in the United States today. There

are the reservated Indians who are directly under the guardianship, if you

Continued(page 6) Sde-

want to call it that, of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. These groups of Indians

are Indians who have treaties with the United States and who are the trus-

tees of the United States. Usually, these treaties came about as a result of

conflict between the United States government and the Bureau of Indian Affairs...

I mean, the individual Indian groups...I'm sorry. But there is also another

group of Indians which never went to war against the United States and, iron-

ically, they have been the ones who have been ignored most, although both

groups have certainly been ignored to too great a degree, and those treaties

have been broken,some 1100 treaties have been broken, and there scarcely

remains one that hasn't been broken down through the years. It has indeed been

what the Indians called it--a Trail of Broken Treaties. One interesting thing

is that the White House issued a statement after the agreement with Dennis

Banks and the American Indian Movement recently that they would not add

to the trail of broken treaties, that they would keep the twenty-one points

made, and they would do what they had promised to do, and certainly this is

encouraging from the Indians' point of view, becausethe Great White Father

is still that, to some degree. President of the United States, Richard M.

Nixon, has done much for the welfare of the Indian. He is generally consi-

dered to be benevolent toward the Indians. He has introduced many programs

in favor of the Indians, for which most of them are grateful, if not all.

Sometimes there may be some disagreement as to the means of aiding the Indians

and so forth, but generally the Nixon policy toward Indians has been accepted,

and approved so far as I have been able to ascertain. I thought I should in-

clude this here by way of explanation--I have met Dennis Banks, Colonel Lock-

ler is a friend of mine, he worked with us very closely on this AIM movement,

and he is a very effective and fearless leader. As he says himself, we have

guts. And I certainly concur that Colonel Lockler has guts, and so do the

Continued(page 7) 'S \

people he leads and the people led by Dennis Banks on a national scale. This,

then, concludes the remarks on this tape regarding the brief stay or the sev-

eral days' stay of the American Indian Movement here in Roberson County, North

Carolina. These footnotes have been added later on in the home of my step-

mother in Lumberton, North Carolina, Mrs....well, no need to mention her name.

Over and out. The other side of this tape, incidentally, has been used to

record some interviews made recently in west Lumberton, North Carolina

regarding a dispute over the firing of the police chief there, and I went

over there November...about November 28, and I spent a day over there inter-

viewing people, and of course I have included these interviews and their com-

plaints about the Police Department in Lumberton and its alleged inefficiency

et cetera. On the other side of this tape...I'm sorry, I was forced to use

the other side of this tape, and I should have put it on a separate tape,

but I'have no tape available at this moment, and I had to get on with the

business at hand, so I hope this is satisfactory. I think this should be

considered two tapes, perhaps somebody could re-record it on another tape.

LUM-47A Transcribed: 20-75
INTERVIEWEE: Citizens of Lumberton, North Carolina

#1: Can you hear it from this angle here?

B: Yes, sir, it will pick it up.

#2: Is it recording now?

B: Yeah, uh huh. You were telling me something about the service, police

service at your Mobil Service Center, about, you know, the delay when you

called the police. They'd wait for...

#1 : Well, to begin with, I'm open from eight or seven, to ten, eleven o'clock

through the week. And I was open on weekends all night long, but I found

that as far as police protection, it was probably better for me to close

early on weekends, because I couldn't get police protection. One incident

that I had around one o'clock at night--I called the police department from

a disturbance, someone at the station. About thirty minutes after I called,

about thirty minutes had went by and I hadn't...the police hadn't got out

there and I still had the disturbance going on at this time, so I again

called the police department and tried to find out what...why I had...some-

one hadn't been out. And they said that they're on the way, and I don't

know why but it seems like the time that's involved, by the time they get

out there the people that was disturbing you is already gone. But the

reason why I started closing up early, it appears to me that I couldn't get

the protection, that I'd have to take my own action, which I wasn't equipped

to stop this disturbance, lessen I'd have to shoot them, and I necessarily

wouldn't want to do that, so I found that it was probably better to close

up real early than to have this disturbance.

B: Do they...when you call, do they come at all, or do you have to...

#1: Well, I'd have to...mostly, every time I called them I've had to call them

second time. I'd explain that it was very urgent and living here in this

Continued(page 2) 'k 2.

#1: precinct, West Lumberton, I've found that late at night, that they don't pat-

rol these areas. Now, I have a motor company, sells automobiles, and I have,

in the past, had cars to be stolen, and broke into, and

little odds and ends, like tires have been taken, and when I make a...a fellow

will make a...the police comes out to write out a report, that's all I ever

hear of it. They don't never give me any facts, or he never comes out to

re-check anything. It got to the point when I missed these things that I

just wouldn't call them because it just seemed like a waste of time, unlessen

it was an automobile stole, or something, I would call them, but I imagine

I've had anywhere from four to five cars being stole and I don't know of one

incident where he came back to give me any information or if they ever caught

anyone, I don't know.

B: They didn't make any report to you at all, did they?

#1: No, no reports.

#2: How long do you think it takes them, in your average that you call them, how

long does it usually take for the police to get there?

#1: Well, usually I call them a second time. It takes anywhere from thirty minutes

to an hour to get them out here.

B: By this time people are already gone.

#1: Well, they've already done their damage, or they're already gone.

#2: Do they...do you think they ever check your place out? Come by and...have you

ever seen them at night-time by your place, looking around, taking a special

interest in...

#1: Yeah, I have one...I guess it'd be a friend that comes...I have seen him, when

he's working at night, you know they rotate their shifts of work, and I have

seen him out on different occasions, but as far as coming out, say, on a routine

check every night or on weekends, they don't fool with it. I remember one

Continued(page 3) ide 2

#1: incident while I had the station open at night, I was down here at the car lot

taking a part offen a car, around back, and I had it jacked up and I stayed...

we stayed there at the car about two hours late at night, and during that time

I didn't see a policeman come by. That was on a Saturday night. Which I...it

could have been a theft then, you know?

B: But you don't see a regular patrol?

#1: No, sir.

B: Well, living here as you do and operating your business as you do, you would

certainly be in a good position to know whether they do actually have any patrols.

#1: Well, yes, I have about three different businesses here at this location, and

being around at night, and I live here in this area, so I'm not...been here

for five, six years, so I know pretty well :what goes on at night, during

the day, what have you. But it appears to me that we have enough policemen

on the force because at the Mobil Station, I'm located beside of the Ackerson

Restaurant, and all during the day and early part of the night, it's nothing

to see one police car over at Ackerson's.

B: Is this a white establishment?

#1: Yes, it is. They seem to hang around there awfully a lot. There are a lot

of people who will back me up on this.

#2: Is this place known for notorious, or is it bad that they happen to patrol...

#1: Well, why I think they hang around there is I think they get free coffee and

I doubt...I don't know whether they're being entertained or what, but they seem

to be one or two cars over there mostly all the time.

B: And that's not helping you any, is it?

#1: No, I don't know if they have a shortage at night, or what, but it should be...

they should be patrolling, I think, especially on weekends when that seems to

be the time when we have the most trouble.

Continued(page 4) sid6e

B: Yeah, it seems to me they would be on regular patrol.

#1: Could you stop this just for a minute?

B: I was asking you if you could suggest certain things which you thought policemen

could do to give better service to the businessmen and also to the residential

part of West Lumberton.

4L, : Is that where we were? Let me, if I may, add something on that particular

thing. I would say that to do things the police should be seen in this area

at all times at night, checking doors, they should drive around the establish-

ment, they should...if they see a door open, they should know that it shouldn't

be done. They should acquaint thierseives with the establishment. If anything,

the least little thing wrong, they would be alert about it, but if you never

go anywhere, you never see anything, they don't know the neighborhood, you know

what I mean? If they would only circle around an establishment, see what's

going on, and then acquaint theirselves with the area, if there was anything

happening other than the ordinary, they would spot it real quick, but as far

as the police, we don't know how they operate uptown...I don't know how many

men they have, but if they would just patrol it, by seeing a police car out

here at practically all times of the night would alleviate a lot of this

breaking in, that's going on.

B: Just their presence in the area would help.

#1: Also, I think we should have a policeman or policemen in this area, just assigned

to this area, instead of having maybe in east Lumberton or south Lumberton, or

what have you, whereas when you call them, they could come immediately, because

this is when you need help, is when you call them, and I think it shouldn't be

any reason, they should be there in anywhere from five to ten minutes after you

call them. If they don't have the right personnel for policemen, they should

Continued(page 5) A d2-

#1: hire some. Because I think if there's anything done there's going to be several

people hurt, or knifed, or killed.

B: And you think this negligence encourages crime, and leads to loss of property

and maybe to bodily harm to people and so on?

#1: Yes. If nothing else, I think they should have a precinct out here in Lumberton

where that you can call right straight to the precinct and get help when you

need it.

B: That sounds like a good suggestion. What do you think of that?

#2: I think that it would probably incur a little too much expense, because the

police are equipped with radioes. A car goes into the station and immediately

he is...a call is dispatched to that car. They should know where...the police-

men should be in that car at all times of the night on duty.

#1: Yes, but he is located out in east Lumberton.

#2: Well, how far would it take him to get if he got, if he was in his car, how

long would it take him to drive over this little part of the city?

#1: Well, he could also be on...one policeman could be in east Lumberton and he's

on another call, how can he work west Lumberton? This is one of the things

that I found out. One incident that I called, this policeman was over in

east Lumberton, I was just take the...try to do

something and when they finally got over here it was

about forty-five minutes to a hour had elapsed, which I think they should

have revised their schedule. They seemed to have a lot of policemen wandering

around on duty during the day, and at night you can't find them. I think they

should change their schedule evenly, or have more at night than they do during

the day, or during the trouble areas, which I'm sure if they made a survey

and found out which times of the night, certain days do you have the most

problems, which I would think would be on the weekends.

Continued(page 6) dOL2-

B: And you think they have more people on duty in the daytime...

#1: Well, I seem to see more people around this area that they hang out, which

is at the Ackerson Restaurant during the day. It's nothing to see two or

three policemen there, and what I'm saying, after hours, which is maybe

from twelve A.M. on, you don't seem to see them in this area.

B: Well, do you have any suggestions?

fi.'-: No, I don't have any suggestions. I'm sure that the police should be...I'm

not trying to tell them how to run their business, or anything like that,

but what I think they should do is to schedule, as been said here, to sche-

dule where they can patrol this area. What we want is a patrol out here to

be seen.

#1: Yeah, I think that they should, especially the businessmen here. They should

have a schedule where that they patrol--police checking the business estab-

lishments every thirty minutes or an hour on the hour.

B: Then you don't necessarily care how they work it out as long as they work it

out? Is that right?

1J .: Right. Like he said, checking locks, checking windows, see if they are broke

out or if the windows are up or checking people who are loafing through the

streets around here...several ways that they should be able to tighten down

on vandalism, people that are giving you trouble.

#2: Going back to earlier, if they acquaint theirself with the establishment, if

they see a window broken they would realize that it's something out of the

ordinary. This is what I brought up earlier. If they acquaint theirself with

the neighborhood a little bit, get to know the establishments, if they see

someone they know it's out of the ordinary. This is what most of your cops

do, your good policemen in your cities, and they have a lot of work to do...

that's what they try to do--acquaint, and you see, the least little thing out

Continued(page 7) side 2-

#2: of the ordinary, they know that something's wrong. Like if a door is open--

they know if the door should be open or not. Or if you see somebody out there

working on a car, you should ask him what is he doing--you know what I mean.

Even a car that's stopped, you should inquire about it. You can come out in

this area at almost any time of night, especially after eleven o'clock, and

I don't think you...probably see one ...you don't,

you just, they're absent from somewhere. I don't know where they'd be...they

might be in a high crime area, I don't know, but I know-that:you'd need more

policemen. We're paying a tax on it. They should...and therefore let them

get out of the car--you can't see anything sitting in an automobile. If they're

even patrolling, they ought to get out and check the doors.

B: In other words, you don't know where they are, but you do know they're not in

your area.

#1: Lew, this is definitely a big problem. Like he said, I made a point to be...

say, if my motor company, during the late hours, I've been there several times

parked in front of my place for two to three hours and never yet have I seen

a policeman come up to the door or even to see what I was doing there. You

follow me? In fact, I mentioned before I was around the back of my place taking

a part off of my car. I was around there for two hours, had it jacked up, and

I could have been...I could have been...a theft myself, and I would have got

away with it, with even my lights shining on the car I was working on. I could

have been someone stealing, but they...if they would have passed a policeman

he would probably stopped and inquired what I was doing...but ideal, those two

hours...wasn't even passed... the thief, or he didn't care.

B: Right. That's a good point.

#2: What is happening, too--we try to patrol our own section. This is what has been

done, patrolling your own section, you know, like--well, I've got to get up

Continued(page 8) side

#2: at two o'clock and go down and check my business.

#1: Lew, that's a good thing he said. We even...we had it so bad with vandalism

that we even had to hire a night-watchman, it was so bad. We had, like I

said, cars, automobiles being stolen, tires, rims, what have you; they broke

in my place, the back window, knocked it out, and I even lost two cars at

one time.

#2: We had an incident happen in the restaurant where they took a safe--rolled a

safe out the back door and left the back door open and didn't know it til we

got back in the next morning.

B: And the police department didn't know a thing about it?

#2: That's right. Well, if they were to if they

were even to circle around like they should, because I know it's impossible

to catch everybody in crime. It's nearly impossible. But if you make your-

self absent from patrol, you encourage these things. If you're seen in a

neighborhood--oh there's a police car. We better be more careful--you know?

B: What of criticism of the Chief of Police?

#1: He knows. He's familiar with what's going on, but he doesn't change his police

department. He won't tell it to fit the needs of west Lumberton. This is one

of these criticisms, things that wd've mentioned here now with the police

force that goes into them, I'm sure he's aware of what's going on and he should
of the big
tell his police to be aware of these things happening, and this is one\ criticisms

that he's getting.

#2: From people that we've talked to up here. They say, "why report it to the

police? They'll never do anything about it." This is the common man

Unsolved things--how many burglaries have been solved out here?

It just seems that the crooks are so much smarter than the police. I know,

again, I said, it's impossible to solve all these things. I know you can't

Continued(page 9) side 2

#2: solve all these things that...again, I emphasize that the negligence of the

police force by not making their rounds, looking at these business establish-

ments is imperative. *.*You want to go down? Let's go down and talk to that


B: Okay.

#2: I think we've covered about everything, don't you? Of course, you've got to

edit that and get it...

(mumbling) [OTEV jpq + O see o q e sc0Y-C

B: I would appreciate it if you would summarize what...

#1: Maybe we can, both of us together, can add into, probably, what he said...

B: Covered a lot of territory, didn't we?

#1: Brought up some new facts that we hadn't covered. Are you running your tape


B: Uh huh, no I'm recording now.

#1: Are you recording?

B: Uh huh.

#1: Oh, I didn't know that. Well one thing was brought out that we hadn't even

touched on. None of the people that we talked about was afraid of reprisal.

We ran into this--this happened one time to this gentleman who recorded some-

thing was going on around him and that same night he had vandalism. Twelve

automobiles got glass broken on them because he reported an incident nearby.

We found out that people are a little hesitant to make reports, be named when

they make a complaint, and they say that they're afraid of reprisal from the

police force, that they will never get any actions on it. There's one case

in particular where two people was in this little station. They called one

police--they were cutting each other--they called one police, called the police,

Continued(page 10) s5c 2.'

#1: he came out there himself and then he called another police. They in turn

called another precinct. Three police cars. Now, this is a little building,

and they would not go in this place, and they were cutting each other. Three...

three men, now, three police cars was there. They finally got their gas, went

back uptown, now they were still in there fighting, cutting each other, they

went back uptown and got their gas, and throwed gas in there. The only way,

to them, was this...to do something...it seemed to be that the policemen are

afraid, are not trained to handle a situation. We ran into this considerable...

quite many times. They don't know, they undecided just what to do, and this

was probably, seemed to me, the training. What do you think about that? Don't

you think it's the training, that they haven't, they don't know how to handle

one given situation?

B: Right, it seems something like this. You remember he also mentioned in connec-

tion with these people who were cutting each other...

#1: That's the same instance.

B: ...that a lady tried to break it up and got her hand cut.

#1: Yeah, trying to take the knife away from him. And they wouldn't go in there...

B: And she was the only one who would try to break up this fracas, this cutting


#1: Tried to take the knife away from one of them and got her hand cut. And they

also seem to think that a lot of the policemen...the reason we don't have them

out in this particular section, they're way across the river, out of the city,

visiting some club over there that you can see cars, police cars, quite often

over in this club. I'm sure they're not off duty. Maybe it's a bad club and

they have to have the law enforcement from another county to go in...I mean,

from another city to go in and take care of it. But it's any given time that

you can see a city police car out of the city, across the river, visiting this

Continued(page 11) ole 2

#1: place, or arbitrating it. Another incident was brought up...let's see...that

a lady was begging for assistance from a policeman. Someone had taken her

keys and she was crying...a young girl, seventeen year old, was very upset.

Somebody had taken her keys and wouldn't give them back. She was visiting

some neighbors and he wouldn't give her keys back, said, "You have to go to

bed with me." This was quoted to the police. She ran away, got away from

him, came out to the highway and had this gentleman to call the police, and

the gentleman...the police got out there forty minutes later and told them

he couldn't do nothing about it, going down there to get her keys from her.

But through persuasion, quite a bit of persuasion, I think he did go with her...

It seemed like that the people have to...that the people are patrolling their

own business, regardless what business they in. They either have a night

watchman, or they patrol it. This instance...this gentleman has his cars stolen

repeatedly, and he set in there with 4,..he called, tried to get protection,

till he finally set in with his shotgun, and they...and...to drive them away

from his lot, from stealing his cars. What was another incident?

B: Did he say there's a number of people who this is the only protection that they

have? That businesses have to use shotguns or whatever to protect themselves.

They have no police protection at all.

#1: It seemed to be, each businessman that we talked to that's had break-ins, van-

dalism, that he relies on his own patrol, and get up from bed at night and

drive out to his place and watch it closely, which, we feel, that the policemen

should be able to do it. I mean, should be able to protect a man's place

where he could have one good night's sleep.

B: If he has to do that he certainly doesn't feel like working, that's for sure.

#1: Let's see...this is about general opinions that we have gathered, but we

also know that this man will work here, in a committee, and this cuts...I mean,

Continued(page 12) s\de

#1: will be open for...he will be welcome to be questioned by any of the law

enforcement officers, or make a statement...

B: Or in the committee?

#1: ...I think the best would, say, Lew, make a statement for public record, if

necessary. That's about all. You can cut it now if you want to, we'll take

over some...can you think of anything else more while we fresh on the subject?

You might want to add?

B: Not right off. It was a little shocking that businesses do have to go to these

extremes in protecting themselves, you know. And that these police cars are

never seen in this part of town. We haven't talked to anybody yet who tells

us about seeing any patrol cars.

#1: At a certain given hour.

B: Yes. And there seem to be more police on duty during the daytime than in the

night. That was brought out. That's all I can think of right now.

B: Some of the things we've heard, by the way, were references to the Chief of

Police and these were not references stating their trust or anything. They

were references referring to his "inadequacy, or incompetence" you know,

adjectives like this.

#1: It was also mentioned that the older officers...it's just generally been told

that the older officers think he's not adequate for his position, that he's

incompetent, that he's not trained his young men to take over situations.

They arrive for about a week and then they are turned loose on their own.

This has been quoted by the older men that's being overworked.

B: And the complete lack of organization. This wasn't said in so many words, but

do you think it was implied?

#1: Yeah, he said that. He said that a lot of people have quit this force because

Continued(page 13) 'id Z

#1: of the uncooperation. They're disorganized. He mentioned that.

B: People aren't assigned to specific places at specific times, or anything like

this. It seems to be a helter-skelter kind of operation, you know. Everybody

takes off and goes where he pleases and spends the time wherever he pleases

and it just seems very disorganized, according to this description.

#1: His description.

B: Yes.

#1: I mean, his comments. You find it, Lew, in travelling over cities that people

are...the citizens are not...the citizens are very angry because of the pro-

tection, they think they should be having, like businesses afraid to be open

late at night, the absence of patrol cars in a given area encourages vandalism,


B: Right. And they seem to feel that this is exactly why there is so much vandal-

ism and so much unsolved crime and they are indignant. They...the people

we've talked to express strong indignation and it seems to me...how about you?

#1: Yeah, most people that we've talked to, they feel that they're not getting the

police protection that they must...I think it would be...I think...my opinion

of what I've heard, these things should be brought into a committee to study

these things, to report over a period of time. I was hoping that the great

City Council of Lumberton would appoint a committee to study these things, these

crimes and the complaints they had in certain areas about the policemen. And

this little time that you've spent here, in a couple of hours, you have given,

and most of the people that you've talked to have been so up in arms about the

protection...I think the committee...the Mayor or somebody ought to appoint a

committee and recommend to the City Council, or let the City Coucil know some

of these things. I'm surprised that a city this large, an all-American city,

can be so much disruption, I mean, corruption in, it seemed like, in the

Continued(page 14) 'idA 2

#1: police force.

B: There were references to corruption, very definite references and expressions

of doubt as to the trustworthiness of the,police department in general, or

would you think this is references to the police chief, in particular?

#1: Well, I feel, that in talking to these people, getting them together, that

the people are...they're not singling out a policeman. It seemed like it all

falls on the lack of organizing in this police force. The cars would be seen,

the policeman visiting places that he shouldn't be, out of his car, and where

if he got a call, how would he know it, you know? It seemed like the police,

they have directives to go by. I'm sure the chief, he should give people...

tell his men that you ought to stay with your automobile. If a crime is

committed, if a man's in the house how can he hear his radio? If he's

visiting...if he's out on his farm looking at his sheep...it just don't make

sense to me. How can you keep a good police force...and most, several people

have told us about people going visiting, policemen visiting or using their

car, using the public vehicle on a personal visit, to visit their friends

and girlfriends.

B: Right, and one thing I noticed that we didn't have any reference to at all

by anybody that we talked to during the entire day was any grudge held by any-

body against anybody. It wasn't a matter of grudges, it was a matter of con-

cern about protection of their property and this sort of thing. No mention of

a grudge made by anybody,

#1: I don't think that...I follow that, but I concur with you a hundred per cent.

We didn't run into anybody that had a grudge or grudges. If it was a grudge

it was more a complaint form to me. If you could say that was a grudge, I

don't think...well a grudge would be...

B: Well, that wouldn't be a grudge. We heard plenty of complaints but no reference...

Continued(page 15) de 2-

B: nobody had any ill feeling against any individual that we talked to, you know.

#1: I couldn't detect it, could you?

B: No, not at all. This is one thing I sort of listen for, you know, and it

just didn't...it didn't materialize, and there was no off-reference or any-

thing else that would indicate this, so perhaps this was some official's

opinion-on it, you know.

#1: If you want to indulge on that line of thinking, I don't know what we might

could'just touch on it, maybe one sentence, maybe touch on it, but we're not

here to attack any individual. We're not...because of the council meeting

here...we're not here to...we interviewed citizen who was concerned. Well,

in interviewing you could mention that we haven't met one, there was no

mention, no grudges, there seemed to be. Yeah, you could use that.

B: We didn't hear any reference at all to any grudge by anybody against anybody.

#1: Of any of the policemen.

B: Right.

#1: Of any of the policemen here.

B: Right. The complaints were not of a personal nature, really, at all. They


#1: Concerned, mostly, the people we interviewed has been concerned businessmen.

B: Right, concerned about their property and concerned about their safety, con-

cerned about the safety of citizens, and things of this nature, you know?

This seems to be the...

#1: Yeah, no one is...I don't...no one is trying to indict...we're just...the people

seemed to be concerned from a viewpoint of being protected, needing protection.

The place, for instance, to be checked nightly, or police cars seen in the

neighborhood at all times of the night, not in a little given period of time.

This has been the things that's been involved.

Continued(page 16) iA 2&

B: Could you detect any attitude toward the chief of police, or could you sum-
marize any attitude thatAcame into contact with? Or have you thought about


#1: No, it's...there might have been one that was very down on him, because he

had reason to be.

B: Little bit disgusted with...

#1: And very disgusted. Some of the things happened that...it seems that it was

much farther than what we ever got on. We had never thought of retaliation,

by making...when you call the police and have to follow things up. It seemed

to be another thing, though, of the police force. Not often...we had talked

to one man about making fingerprints, which is a normal thing to do in an

automobile stealing, and I know that from my own personal thing, I had my

house broken into, and detectives down there, and there wasn't a single

fingerprint made. I have never seen a fingerprint made here.

B: I wonder if they have a fingerprint man at all? Or anybody who is able to...


#1: I wouldn't know, I wouldn't know. I think that he could be...now this...the

chief of police is expert in fingerprinting, but I wouldn't think that he'd

have time to make these calls, but he must have someone in there that could

make these...could make fingerprints. There must be somebody in our all-

American city...in as big a...in the metropolitan...as big as Lumberton has

grown and the progress they have made, it seems to me that they would have a

fingerprint expert. Again, I...it just seems that...I'm not trying to solve

the police problems, or anything about it, but the citizens are not...I don't

think they have made an attempt. They have recommended a few things they

thought would be nice to have, like having a fingerprint expert. They undoubt-

edly don't have one because they don't never make them. If they come out and

Continued(page 17) S0d -

#1: somebody breaks in a door they don't make a fingerprint. I've known of no

case, and Steve, on the earlier tape, he said that he'd been broke in three

times, they never made fingerprints, did they?

B: He didn't mention any fingerprints at all. As a matter of fact, they did

very little. If they came out their and investigated it at all.

#1: That was an effort, it seemed to me, on their part.

B: Right. It seems to be a matter of indifference or neglect, or both, inadequacy,

incompetence, things like this, it seems that this seems to cover the whole

thing, doesn't it?

#1: It seems.

B: References to imcompetence in the police department, and particularly in ref-

erence to the police chief between you and me. People seem almost to be sorry

for the man, that he's an asenine man, between you and me, in a high position,

and doesn't know how to handle it, you know.

#1: This is the general thing that I'm pretty sure of...

B: If anything, they seem to be sorry for him because of this.

#1: They do, seem to be, that maybe he is a nice individual. I...you know, this

is what, when we say personal grudge. Most of the people thinks he's a nice

individual but there's the lack of leadership in his department that's what

has been criticized.

B: People are very doubtful that he could put his finger on any person in his

department at any given time if he had to lay hold of one of his men, it would

be very doubtful...unless...I won't say that...oh my...

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