Title: Interview with Mr. and Mrs. Archie A. Locklear (September 21, 1971)
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 Material Information
Title: Interview with Mr. and Mrs. Archie A. Locklear (September 21, 1971)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: September 21, 1971
 Subjects
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
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Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
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Bibliographic ID: UF00008137
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 249

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INTERVIEWER: Mr. Adolph Dial

INTERVIEWEE: Mr. and Mrs. Archie A. Lockee

September 21, 1971 dib



D: Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one,

two....Today is September the 21st, 1971, Adolph Dial speaking,

Pembroke State University. I am here at the home of Mr. and Mrs.

A. A. Lockee, Mr. Archie Lockee, and we're here in his living room.

Mr. Lockee, I see that you have on the wall a picture of all your

children. Seem they've been quite successful. Will you tell me a

little about what each one's doing?

L: Well...

D: We'll begin with Eardel over here, your son Eardal.

L: Well, we'll start with the older boy then.

D: All right. Which one's older, Archie?

L: Yes, no, Eardel.

D: Eardel, all right.

L: The oldest boy. He's in the United States Navy now and he's in Washington.

D: In the Pentagon?

L: In the Pentagon in Washington, that's right.

D: What is his rank?

L: He's a captain in the Navy.

D: A captain in the Navy. When did he go in service?

L: '41, I believe. was just '43.










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D: '43, huh. Now has, what's been some of his positions? Do you recall

while in the Navy was he ever head of a destroyer or anything of

this nature?

L: Executive officer on ship and then from that he went to Captain of

the Turner and...

W: The Brow.

L: ...and the Brow.

W: And one more.

L: And then captain of the Wainwright.

D: Captain of the Wainwright.

L: Yes, of the Wainwright.

D: Well, it seems that he's one step away from admiral and I hope that

he'll make it some day. Up to this time we've never produced a

Lumbee admiral in this area, in this, in the area of Pembroke. Now

I see next to him you have a son, what's his name, another son?

L: Archie Stanley. Archie Stanley.

D: It looks like he's a full colonel.

L: Yes, sir.

D: I recognize the bird on his shoulder. He's, how old is he now?

About forty-seven, about forty-seven?

L: Forty-six.

D: I remember those two boys. They're very fine fellows. I didn't see them

too often, only when they came home, but I remember when they were at

the University of South Carolina I believe it was.

L: That's right.










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D: Now what is, he's in the army, isn't he?

L: He's in the United States Air Force.

D: Oh, in the United States Air Force.

L: Air Force, yes. They've separated that now from the Army.

D: Was he a pilot or just, or...

L: He's a pilot.

D: ...two sons are still in the service and one has twentywhat?

they both go in the same time?

L: The same year.

D: The same year.

L: About the same year, yes. About the same year.

D: And Mrs. Lockee, how many years do they have in the service? See,

they went in in '43, didn't they?

W: Yes, about almost twenty -eight years.

D: About twenty-eight years. Yes, I know they went in the year I went

in and I joined, one of their friends, Landspan, who was a student

with them, he was in my outfit in the Army that I....Now you have over

there another son.

L: Otto.

DP Otto. I had the privilege of having him in my student teaching class

Wtle, I was at the high school. What is Otto doing now?

e: e ins Piedmont College in Charlotte. He's vice-president of some

department in that college and you'll find down there in that...

D: Oh, yes, he's vice-president of continuing education of Piedmont College.

L: Right. That's right. That's right.










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D: Now those are your three sons and of course he has his masters

degree and I believe Did the other boys attend any

schooling while they were in the military?

W: Archie did.

L: Archie Stanley.

W: Both of them did. Both of them. He got his...

D: Both of them.

W: ... masters degree while he was in.

D: Eardel received his masters degree in the service. Did Archie Stanley

attend, did he receive his masters when...

W: No, he didn't receive his...

L:

D: Well, both of them have the same rank. Maybe one day one of them

will become admiral and the other one a general. Let's hope so.

Now you have three daughters. I see Miss Georgia

L: Georgia.

D: And she has her masters degree also, Miss Georgia does, and Joyce

is doing secretarial work.

W:

D: And Claudette a teacher is she?

W: Yes, she's a teacher.

D: She teaches. Is she doing graduate work?

W: Yes, but I can't tell you anything about it.

D: Yes.










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W:

D: Well, it looks like a very successful family of six. Now you are

the father, Mr. Lockee, I mean you are the son of Mr. A. S, Lockee

L: Aaron_

D: Yes, I always knew him as Aaron__Lockee. Now looking at your

family here and thinking of your father, there must have been some

reason for success with fighting against the odds over the years

here in Robeson County. That is you, this is something extraordinary

that just doesn't happen to a family. Now I'd like a comment from

each one of you on what do you really contribute this to. Suppose

you speak to this for a few minutes.

L: What I contribute to the boys success, the two older boys especially,

to, I contribute that just to their grandfather. He was in the ministry.

He was an Indian evangelist.

D: Their grandfather, what was his name?

L: His grandfather, Aaron, Aaron, A. S. Lockee, and he was in the state

of South Carolina and of course when the older boy got over in high

school, lacked about a year of finishing high school he went and lived

with his grandfather and finished high school in Camden, South

Carolina, and after finishing high school in Camden, of course we

kindly adopted him to his grandfather and of course he in turn had

him over to the University of South Carolina and he entered the school

there. And that interested the second boy who was in high school here

in Pembroke and he gets on the train and goes down to Columbia himself










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and finishes his high school career in Columbia living on the college

campus and everybody thought that while he lived there on the college

campus that he was a college student. But he, he lived in the tenement

with his brother and finished his high school and then went into

this university himself.

D: Mrs. Lockee, what do you consider the success of"your children, too?

Do you, it must have been something in home training and so forth,

too, you know. What kind of philosophy did you practice around your

children?

W: Well, I really wanted...

D: In other words everyday teaching and so forth, what...

W: ...I really wanted a doctor and a lawyer and a preacher and I didn't

get to go to school myself and I just pounded, begged them and

begged them and persuaded and pushed them to go to school even though

times were real hard, but I wanted them to go to school and they

listened and they really wanted to accomplish something and I was

interested in that and I think, two, I asked the Lord to direct in

all, this and to help us that they might go to school and I attribute

everything to what the Lord has done for us including that caused

them to have this ambition and us to have the desire to want them

to accomplish something that would be worthwhile in life.

D: Now you think the desire means a lot, don't you? Now you, you and

your family, your children did well. You were never real wealthy

people, were you?










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W: We were poor people, very poor. I wouldn't like hardly to go

in to how poor we were, but anyhow the Lord supplied our need,

not our want. And then we were very much concerned, that's another

word I think that helped being concerned about them.

D: Did you teach your children to work? You were here on the farm, did

you teach them to work?

W: Everybody had a chore. They know how to work. They know how to

do anything that poor people know how to do in this world.

D: Mr. Lockee, did you, did your children seem to enjoy the farm life

while they were coming up?

L: They were good, they were good plowhands, they were good tobacco

workers, they were good cotton-pickers and they were good hog-raisers,

they were...

W: They were_

L: ...just any, just anything on the farm. They were one hundred percent.

They just worked_

D: Did your boys enjoy hunting? You always enjoyed hunting.

L: Oh, they loved to go hunting in the wintertimes. The older boy

missedischool a while once to go down to Pamico Sound hunting with

his grandfather and I and, but Mr. was his teacher

at that time and he gave him a good scolding about that and he

never, he never left school again to go hunting, but he really did

love to hunt.










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D: Mr. Lockee, what's your age, seventy...

L: I'm seventy-one right now.

D: Now do you recall when your father was born, the date there? He

lived to be eighty what?

L: My father was about eighty-five when he died.

D: Eighty-five when he died. Mr. Locklear, Mr. Lockee, what was your

dad's role in the church in the early years? Was he connected

with the Burnt Swamp Baptist Association?

L: Yes, sir. He was, he was in the Burnt Swamp Association ever since

quite a young man. In other words he was, he come into the associa-

tion right after the establishment of it. Well, I don't think he

helped establish it, but he, he come right, come into it right,

right following the establishment of the association.

D: Yes, he was born around 1872 and the association was established in

1880, so I noticed there that quite a young man he got started and

so forth. Do you recall any of his basic philosophy as far as church

work goes and so forth?

L: Well, he was quite interested in church work and he was a deacon of

his old home church and he was a clerk of the Burnt Swamp Association

at one or two intervals. I don't know how many years. And he was

very much interested in, in the Burnt Swamp Association.

D: Now the Burnt Swamp Association was known as, in other words once

they were members of the Burnt Swamp Association, from that time

were they associated, was this an individual thing or were they










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associated with the greater Baptist Association?

L: Just a little individual group of Indian people who had just a few

churches and they organized their churches into this Burnt Swamp

Association and they were just a group to themselves at that time.

D: I wonder what, did you ever hear your dad say that his dad said

what it was like before prior to the time the Burnt Swamp Association

was organized? I wonder how they worshipped or, did you ever hear

anything about that? Mr. Archie, what was your father's education

like in the early days?

L: Oh, you mean, you mean not to say_

D: Yes, where did he attend school?

L: Up at the old Normal, up at the old Normal School at Pace, at Pace.

D: You don't know how many years he attended.

L: I don't remember how many years, but he and, he and Mr. Oxen, Foster

Sampson Oxen went to school together and Mr.

Archie Sampson's wife.

D: A lot of what they picked up I suppose was at home because he seemed

to be a pretty well-educated man from reading the...

L: He studied a lot, he studied a lot at home. He got books and things

and people would donate him books and he'd, he'd find a good book,

an educational book and he'd get and just study it at home by very

little light as far as light was concerned, because they usually built

a fire in a big fireplace and studied right there.










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D: Now in 1885 when the people were designated the, designated as Croatan

Indians here from the lost colony theory, did you ever hear

your father say how the people felt about this name when it was first

give to them? Did they feel, did they like it all right in the first,

for the first few years when they ?

L: I think they, I think they were proud of it. I think they were proud

of receive, in other words rather than, rather than to go by nothing

I think they were kind of proud of the Croatan Indians.

D: It appears that that was the case.

L: That they were proud of being called Croatan Indians.

D: Now in 1911 we changed our name to Indians of Robeson County and in

1913 to Cherokee. Now being proud of the name 'Croatan' there for

a while, what do you suppose happened? Did you ever hear your father

say anything about how the name was used and why they decided they

ought to change the name and so forth?

L: Well, it seemed that the people who used that name would use it as

4 sang and to our people and the, when they'd refer a lot of times,

and 'Old Croatan So-and-so', and 'Old Croatan So-and-so' and our

people got to where they didn't like that name because of the Croa

and the tan and because we were all brown-skin and dark-skin people

and they, they just got to where they actually didn't like it because

it looked they used it for a slang on our folks and we just got to

where we hated the name, actually hated it.

D: I notice the Burnt Swamp Association used the name 'Croatan' for a









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few years and then they dropped it and I suppose by this time the

people were beginning to resent the name. Now your father was very

much involved in the Indian business at the time that we were

out for another name. Is this correct? Cherokee?

L: Yes, yes.

D: I suppose he went to Raleigh some.

L: Yes, and he went up to Cherokee County, too, a whole lot, and brought

a man from Cherokee County down here by the name of Blithe.

D: This is very important.

L: B-l-i-t-h, I might not spell it right, but anyhow his name was Blith.

They brought him down here to talk about the Indian people and to

help to originate among our folks the name 'Cherokee Indian' and of

course that's the way I know my father went

up in the mountains, up in Cherokee County and Mr. Blith come back

with him from up there.

D: Mr. Lockee, what is your feeling on our present name 'Lumbee' and

so forth? How do you think your dad would feel about it if he

were here today?

L: Well, I think that my, my father was a very intelligent man and

the way that the situation and everything has been here before,

I believe that he wouldn't be resentful whatsoever about the situation

and as far as I'm personally concerned I think that it's one of the,

one of the gooder moves as the Indian people of Robeson County could

have done because I've been told as and I'm not an elderly man like

some of the men are who do know, but I've been told that we were located










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up and down both sides of Lumhee River and I, I have heard way

back that we were tilling the soil, farming on our own property

and some of our people had slaves. I've been told that, and so

we were, we were located up and down on both sides of Lumbee River

from well, below Lumberton all the way right on up the river towards

above Maxton as far as that's concerned right on. And I think,

I think it's a very, I think it's a very popular move, yes.

D: Well, we are geographically located here and on this river and

the Cherokees can't be mad about it or anyone else, so it works...

L: That's right.

D: ...very good and of course now the name is all over the country and

recognized as such and perhaps we'll always keep it. However, it's

important to recognize that the Indian movement during the time of

the Croatan, Cherokee later, that all of this did a certain amount

of assimilation to the people which later were to work with this

same problem, they would at least have some groundwork and the basis

for working with it and the people would really be wanting, you know,

identity and so forth.

L: Right.

D: The groundwork was very well, very well much in line. Do you recall

any of the old stories of the fellows going away to shop and so forth?

L: Well, they, they used to take their wagons, their covered wagons, and

go up about Rock Fish up this side of Fayetteville and camp and

during the night and leave the next morning and go over into Fayetteville

and shop and buy their grocery and whatever they went after and come










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back to about Rock Fish that evening late and spend the, a night

and the next day then drive home back in Robeson County over in

around St. Pauls and from St. Pauls in around Lumberton and from

Lumberton in and around Pembroke here. They've done that several

times way back. I've heard the old people tell that, that story.

D: Can you recall any of the Henry Barry Lowery stories about the

death of Tom or anything?

L: Well, yes, I've heard.

D: Do you, yes, do you recall any of the Tom Lowery stories? The

time that he died?

L: I've heard the story and it's supposed to be a true story that

early in the morning Tom Lowery left my grandfather's home and

went going across the Holy Swamp and the Holy Swamp went into

Rat Swamp and in going across that swamp that morning there was

some men behind some trees in the edge of that swamp that shot

and killed Tom Lowery and after he was shot and killed this man

goes to Lumberton to let them know about Tom being killed and another

old man comes up, you want me to call his name I guess, Dave Davis,

a man by the name of Dave Davis come up and in Tom's face

and he was pretty near cold, too cold for the blood hardly to run

out of his face, in order to receive some of the reward from Tom



D: You don't recall whether he received any of it .

L: I don't remember now that he did, whether he did or whether he










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didn't receive any of the reward, but he did that in order to try to

get some of the reward. I don't know whether he had any of it or

not. But Tom Lowery was buried, Tom Lowery was buried in Lumberton

right where that old cemetery was there at the fire station, right

in back of the fire station in Lumberton. Tom Lowery was buried there.

D: Wonder why they buried him there.

L: And my, and I don't know why they buried him there, but later Tom

was dug up out of there and I don't know where they carried him, but

I've heard people say that saw the remains of him as he was dug up,

said he had the largest bones of any man that they ever saw. They

said that his arm bones and his leg bones were just awful they were

so, so large, that he was undoubtedly a large-framed man as far as

his frame was concerned. I've heard, I've heard that story.

D: What was, what was your dad's feeling on Henry Barry Lowery? Did

he feel he went away or that he was killed? Did you ever hear him

express...

L: My daddy believed he was killed. I never could believe it, but my

daddy believed it.

D: Mrs. Lockee, do you recall any stories at all about Henry Barry, Henry

Barry Lowery?

W: He had a neice that lived up on Bear Swamp and she would come, all the

group would come to her place and some of them would lay down and

some would-stay up and they said, demanded her to cook, pick peas

and cook them and she'd cook them and they'd wash a pot of peas

and she would feed them. But always some of them slept while the










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others done the watching. And it was interesting to hear her

tell all these stories. I just wish I could remember a lot of them.

D: In other words it appears that the Indian people had to hide

him out and gave them their moral support and food and sometimes

sleeping, I've been told, in shuck barns and so forth.

W: Yes, that would be in the barn where they slept ___ at her place.

L: Shuck beans.

W: With them shuck beans. They didn't know what it was. She said to

go to bed, so they stayed in the woods and they, she said they traveled.

You know they call this road up there the Lowery Road on account of

that was the road where the outlaws traveled and she said, "And he

wasn't mean either." She told a story then about Henry Barry, his

wife, Rhoda, and said there was a ditch built from under their house

where he would go home and try to stay a while with his family and

of course hear the militia, she called it the militia. They would

come and he'd get in this ditch and leave and get out of her way

and say he was all the time running for his life and he was tired

of this. He really got tired of it and it was most pathetic, you

know, to hear her tell this story and she loved him. They were her

people, too. And then she told a story then about Henry Barry, and

this should have come first about Henry Barry, and some of his

relatives looking at them make his parents, his daddy and brother dig...

L: His uncle.

W: His uncle dig a grave and how they made him after he dug it stand there

and they shot him, and then they 14Ad her in, too, that was her end.










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Now you've heard them talk about this. Made them march, the militia

would make them march. They would catch them on the way over there

to, you know, to visit with her grandparents and then she told the

story about two of them were killed down here in Branch

Swamp down below where I was reared. I can't remember their

name but two of, I don't know if that was a brother or, but anyhow

it was two of the...

L: boys.

W: boys that was killed down there and then she told, too,

about the militia and all, knocked their mother's teeth out

and then put them in a...

D: Knocked whose teeth out?

W: This old lady, their mother, and they used to tell this story

about them put them in a smokehouse and putting

light wood around them,this old lady. They was going to burn them

up in there, but I don't know what happened that they didn't do this,

but they put that light wood around the smokehouse. You put them

there, you didn't have places, you know, like we do now, and so

that was, that was sad, too. But maybe I haven't got that in.

D: How do, how do you feel, you look back to then, the stories that

been told about the Lowery gang, you think the Lowery gang did a lot

for us?

L: I think they really did. I think they opened up a channel for us.










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They stood for something and I appreciate them for that and as far

as I'm concerned I'm like somebody said, I think they ought

to have a monument to put up in memory of him.

D: Mrs. Lockee, do you recall any stories ever been told to you as a

child or as an adult about the, about the Lowery gang?

W: Well, we live with this Miss Mozetti and this would be Henry Barry

Lowery's neice and she would tell us stories about what happened

when they were outlaws, that they'd come to her house and they'd

demand her to get, pick peas and cook,a pot of peas for them and

while she was cooking some of them slept in the barns or anywhere

they could lay down and she said in shuck bins and some of them

would watch. They were watching for the militia. And so then she

told us about her making her marks when she was a young girl, her

and her Aunt That was Henry Barry's sister.

Said the militia would make them march, but now I don't know why

they had them marching. I don't know the gist of that, all that

they're being close relatives to the Lowery gang and maybe thought

they'd get some information. The best I can remember seems like

that's what they was picking information about, where to find them

or what they were doing and they treatedipretty rough.

D: Perhaps they were wanting to take them certain places, too, and

maybe that's looking for Henry and so forth and make them march

on the way.

W: Make them march on the way, just drive them and they treat them pretty










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bad and it caused her to dislike white people a whole lot. She just

didn't like them on account of she had remembered all this, how

they were treated and how they treated her people and she loved her

people just like we do today. And so she had in her

heart against them from being treated so bad and then she told us

about why we had outlaws. I was real young and I was interested

to know why we had outlaws and she said, "Well, they wanted them

to, they wanted to fight in the war." Now what war was this?

D: The Civil War.

W: The Civil War and said Henry Barry and his people wanted to go to

the beach where they were building batteries and they wanted to

work just side by side like everybody else. And wasn't it ?

D: uh huh.

W: ...said that they wanted to fight like other people. But the militia

and all the people wanted them to go down to Wilmington and build

batteries, and they didn't want to do that. They wanted to be like

free people and anyhow since they wouldn't go they'd take -Eb in

the woods and so they, they were real, the white people was real

angry with the Lowery people, so they made Henry Barry's daddy

and his brother dig a grave and Henry Barry was off working, could

see all of this happening. He was a watching and he said," I'll get

even with every one of them that killed my daddy," and said, of course

they stood them up there and shot them backwards in the grave, his

brother, his daddy and his brother. And so that still caused more

built up in the Lowery gang. So...










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D: That was Erlin, was his father and his brother was named William.

W: William, uh huh. I didn't know, you know, I didn't them. I mean

this is just a story that...

D: Yes.

L: Aunt Mazenie told.

W: Aunt Mazenie.

D: Mazenie, what was her last name?

L: Brayboy, Mazenie Brayboy.

D: Mazenie Brayboy.

W: That was her married name.

D: Yes, and she was, but who was she, she was a Lowery before she...?

L: She. was Patrick Lowery's daughter.

W: She was Patrick...

D: She was Patrick Lowery's daughter.

W: Yes.

D: And Patrick was Henry Barry's brother.

W: Brother.

L; Patrick, Patrick.

D: Mr. Archie, do you remember hearing any of the stories about the

death of __. the Lowery boys killed?

L: I heard the story that he left his home on that, on the morning that

he was killed and was coming across the Mossneck Dam and the Lowery

boys were on the side of the dam when he come along and I've heard










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the word that he quoted, that if they didn't get him this morning

they wouldn't get him. He was going to Mossneck. Mossneck was a

big town in our estimation at that time because there was a big

store there and the train stopped at Mossneck and he was going to

get on the train and, and leave the country that morning. But

as he come across the, the Mossneck Dam the outlaws just shot him,

shot part of his head off in the, in the mill pond. Now that's,

that's the story I've heard and Oakley MacNeil was with them at

the time. They had him under arrest for some reason, some talk

that had been out and I, I heard him say that whenever they killed

Taylor that he was so scared until he seemed to sank into a stump

that he was sitting behind. That's the story I've heard about him

and at that very time, at that very time Henry Barry and his men

would look up at the Mossneck Railroad and see a bunch of the militia

marching up and down, up and down the road looking and watching out

for the outlaws at that time. But they- wasn't afraid of them,

didn't seem to be because they were right down there ready and got

Taylor as he passed and whenever they got Taylor they just went on

down through the swamp.

D: O.K. I asked your wife a minute ago, you know, what her feelings

was. She felt that the Lowery gang made a contribution to the later

of the people here, what is your feeling on it?

L: Well, I tell you what I feel, Mr. Dial, personally, and I've mentioned

it several times in Pembroke and I didn't care who heard it, that










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the Indian people of Robeson County ought to build a monument in

memory of Henry Barry Lowery for his shrewdness and for his genuine

manhood for his people and for himself. He just didn't intend

to let himself down and be lower than anybody else. He was ready

to stand by the side of any man and do the things that was better

for his country. But to lower his dignity and to lower him as a

man, we just ought to, I think the Indian people ought to just build

a monument to his name. That's just how much I think of the whole

situation. I've told the Lowerys that and I've told all of our people

that and I've told it several times in our little town here and I

think I've said it eveniin Lumberton that that's what, that's what

the Indian people ought to do.

D: Yes, I think so, too. Do you recall any more of the Henry Barry

Lowery stories?

L: Well, there were some of his enemies down at the Boyo Store that sits

right next to, side of the Seaboard Railroad near our college campus

now, and Henry and Steve and Tom and I don't know how many of them,

I don't know whether all of them was together that morning or not,

but they began to shoot at them and try to fight them and to arrest

them and I've been told that Steve walked out right in the center of

the old Seaboard Railroad and fired down at this Boyo Store, and there

was a man shooting at them from the Boyo Store leaning up side of the

corner of the Boyo Store house, and the bullets from Steve Lowery's

rifle pit the side of that building and so near to that fellows head

until he just fell out and left there just, just as quick as he










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possibly could. And as a little boy, as a little boy I remember

seeing the bullet holes that Steve Lowery put into that building.

D: How old are you now?

L: I'm seventy-one years old. That was in about 1909 and '10-that

I saw that. That was what they called it the Boyo Store that dit

right there.

D: What was Steve's reputation? Was he one of the good guys of the

Lowery gang or was he supposed to be tough?

L: He was the one that was full of fire. He'd, I've been told that

Henry Barry had to talk to him quite often to hold him down. He

was just actually full of fire and he was just ready to do things

whenever the time come. He was, he was just one of the, he was just

one of the one of the outlaws and, and a fine

fellow. I've understood that he was a mighty fine fellow, but he

was a crack shot. I've been told that there was nobody could beat

him with his rifle. I heard Mr. Ollie Johnson say once that he

saw some pine trees on the other side of his father's, that's

Mr. Colonel Johnson, and Steve Lowery was coming from over out on

Burnt Swamp and was coming walking through the woods on a foot path

and a great big box-face pine four hundred yards from him, he just

stopped right still and just split that box-face, just whipped it open

with bullets out of his rifle. I heard Ollie Johnson say this, that

he and his father remember seeing some of them pine trees over at...

Ollie Johnson's father was Mr. Colonel Johnson they called him.

D: Of course Mr. Colonel lived during the time of the Lowery gang.










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L: Mr. Colonel, yes. Mr. Colonel lived during the time, and they'd

come across, a lot of times they'd come across from Burnt Swamp

and come in through by his place, you know, the Old Dove,

Old Dove Footpath Road, you know, wagon cart-loads and so on.

D: A thought just came to me that I don't hear many stories about the

boys using, travelling by, travelling by horses. It seemed that

they walked most of the time. I supposed this was a certain

amount of protection.

L: I believe that, that that's the reason why they walked, because

they, they had taken these little...of course they could have

travelled, they could have travelled by horseback if, but it would

put them in too much show for the enemy don't you see? And so they

walked so they could take cover in any little branch or any little

woods or anything they passed, they could take cover should trouble

happen or should trouble start or the enemy try to overpower them

or something they could take, they could take the bushes then. And

a horseback would bother, would bother them





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