Title: R. C. Quinn
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SEM 166A-M
R. C. Quinn chn
Introduction completed

SIDE 1 Tape A


In any situation in which there are as many people as involved as are involved


under the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and under the various tribal organizations, and


in Congress, and a in- local and state governments there's bound to be some very


serious differences. And there's bound to be a whole area of problems that are


difficult to resolve. And so I don't want to hit these too hard but at the same


time I don't want to overlook things that are important and influential factors.


In its early years congress enacted many Indian bills. In 1789 it established the


War Department. In addition to military affairs this department handled matters


pertaining to Indian affairs. In those turbulent early years 4 the military seemed


the apporpriate branch of government to deal with tribal affairs. The congress then


enacted laws for the government of the northwestt territories. This act provided, and


I'd like to quote--"The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards the Indians,


their land, their property shall never be taken from them without their consent. And


in their property rights and liberties they shall never be invaded or disturbed unless


in just and lawful wars authorized by the congress. That laws founded in justice and





SEM 166A-M
-2-


humanity shall from time to time be made for preventing wrongs being done to them


and for preserving peace and friendship with them." This short-lived policy was


intended to provide the pattern for future legislation, and federal policy. But in


1970 congress ie laws to regulate trade and intercourse with Indian tribes, and


providing for the sale of Indian lands, the commission of crimes, trespass against


the Indians, and the procedures to punish white men committing offences against the


Indians. The substance of these laws later amended remains in affect today. From


this modest beginning and by a process of trial and error the congress preceded to


work out the main outlines of federal Indian law. From 1789 to 1824 a period of


some thirty-five years, the congress pursued a course of opportunism with respect


to Indian affairs. The Indians usually controlled their internal affairs and to


some extent their relationship with other Indian tribes and the federal government.


Little money was provided to support the tribes, and education was left almost entirely


to the missionaries. In 1832 congress authorized the president to appoint a commissioner


of Indian affairs who under the direction of the secretary of war was given authority


to manage all Indian affairs and all matters arising out of Indian relationships.


Then in 1834 the congress provided for the formal organization and functions of the


department of Indian affairs, still however under the war department. President


-Andrew Jackson appointed Elbert Herring on July 10, 1832, as the first commissioner of





SEM 166A-M
3


Indian Affairs. In the 140 years that followed there were forty individuals to


hold this high post representing the widest possible range in outlook upon the


responsibilities and opportunities of that office. I personally served under all


the commissioners from John Collier through to Bob Bennett. I have nothing but


the greatest respect for these men and their integrity and dedication to their


duties and responsibilities. But as we shall later find these men while they held


this high position didn't hold all the authority necessary to carry out the charges


which was placed in their hands. In 1849 the a interior department was established


and the Bureau of Indian Affairs was transferred over there to the interior department.


And a a I believe that$ almost from the inception of this government 46 as witnessed


in their the articles in the constitution a of the United States. Article I grants


the congress power to regualte commerce with Indian tribes. Article II grants power


to make treaties and abrogate them. And Article III grants the power to hold trust


property or otherwise deal with Indian.owned property in which the United States


shares t interest in title. So it was that a the United States has been


an intergral part of a tribal affairs all from almost from the inception. I think


that probably theaVg one single most important statement of that period was made


by Justice Marshall of the Supreme Court when he defined Indian tribes inO the case


of the Cherokee Nationsverszse-Georgia. He said, "the Indian Nations have always been





SEM 166A-M
4



considered as distinct independent political communities, retain their original


rights as undisputed possessors of the soil from time immemorial with the single


exception of that imposed by irrestible power." Segregation of the greater part


of Indians from the white population became a well-defined element of Indian


policy during the Jackson administration. From this &' firm conviction # it


was decide that 0g Indians could never be a a a part of the culture, they would


never learn the technology of the white people, (nd therefore the kindest thing


to do would be just pick them up bodily and move them beyond the frontier where


they wouldn't be in the way. And this treaty this &Wa policy continued into


affect until all during the thirties, and many tribes were moved I the Cherokee,


the Choctaw, the Chickasaw, Creeks, Seminoles, the ones they could catch, o Delaware,


Kickapoo, kAJOLO- J Shawnee, Peoria, Wea, Powhatan, Fox, Winnebago, and most


of the other eastern groups. They all got moved out to the mid-west all the way from

to
the a Canadian boarder a down throughVTexas. But a as the white population moved


west the country was occupied and there wasn't any more frontier beyond which they


could moved, so they started assigning them to reservations. And this continued


until a along about O 1880 % ^ about 1871 they g% quit entering


into treaties with Indian tribes, they didn't have any more treaties. But alot of


reservations were established by acts of congress and the Indians were placed on there




SEM 166A-M
5


by an act of Congress not by a treaty after 1871. So #then later on the 0 Indians/


after the whites had settled the area pretty well and a lot of the land was taken/

why
there wasn't very much free land left they began to look at the Indian land as .


a#Qft probably a good & source of additional property. And a so the congress

um accomodated its citizens as it always does, it passed the Allotment Act and the

to
reservations were allowed ~he members of the tribe. The surplus land was then ceded


and open to public entry. Indians were paid for that ceded land, a pittance but


they were paid in this instance. A at least they were agreed to be paid. 4 Ws


It nevertheless ) when the land was allotted that left a lot of land which was


shipless. They said it was surplus to the Indians need at that time. And that land


was then sold 4 and open to public entry and &40 lost to the Indians. Well after


that& technique used up much of the land was available why then 4 the Congress


decided that a that many of those Indiansjr didn't want to live on their allotments


and ought to be given the privilege of selling them if they want to. And so they


made it easy. They passed ( f an act which permitted Indians of one half or less


degree of blood to sell their lancet a -4 r kf l to sell their land if


they wanted to. And this was done. Well why all of this was going on this $ the


Indians were being denuded of their property and and a reservations were being


whittled down and so on. A lot of people were disturbed by this. There was a in great





SEM 166A-M
6



deal of a adverse feeling about the way the federal government was treating the


Indian. And a by 1933 it was estimated that there were 91,000,000 acres of land


had beenLlost to the Indians, and that 90,000 of these Indians were now landless,


4hey didn't have any place to live they were just nomads. And A so 4A the


destruction of Indian 4W social and political forms, and the liquidation of their


property 4^ combined to greatly increase rather than to decrease the governments


problems. I mean here were all these people who were kind of aimless, and tragic


figures that had to be taken care of. And so the government issued rations hey


did had all sorts of programs for Indians. But none that were really affective.


As a matter of fact I recall back in my day in the early '30s there was no schools


on the reservation for Indians, there were no Indian schools. They were all public


schools and the Indians weren't allowed to go or they were allowed to go but they


didn't want to go. i"-@rhe people made it too tough for them, so a lot of


our kids never got educate hey just stayed out of school. It was easier to stay


out of school then fight a to get an education. And so these problems a were were


really magnified. All of these things magnified the the condition of the Indians,


and it also made the a the American people a a a little conscience sticken. Because in


1930 1hen commissioner John Collier took the office and a FDR was the president they


had the so called New Deal. And a they actedd the Indian Reorganization Act in which





SEM 166A-M
7



? they f decided they they would reverse the policy of taking land away from


the Indians. They stopped ttl4 QJ dW the allotting of land to Indian tribes,


they stopped the issuance of and -5 They started to buying


land rather than selling land. And J it provided work opportunities. And they


provided measures to conserve the natural resources of the Indian. And they provided


the means for the economic development of Indians by providing credit and money


and capital for these things. And 0 they reaffirmed the rights of the Indian


people. And #of course the4e Bureau of Indian Affairs was bad the lead role in


accomplishing all of these things. And the Bureau of Indian Affairs was not manned


in those days by Indians but largely by non-Indians. And many of them o had


some pretty dim views about a what the Indians could do And they had some pretty


about whether or not Indians should be given the an opportunity to participate,


and certainly had some pretty dim views about Indian's leadership in these activities.


Everybody had opinions about Indians. The social scientists they said that all


political forms found in Indian societies at the time of contact with the Europeans


was a based on a kinship and a only a handful groups had a the concept of government


4 as !g an administrative organ of state, voting, elections, etc. That except for


theeko Iroquois onfederacyj most of the other groups were pretty & losely


organized. And Me they were more inclined to have a a clanship type of a a authority,





SEM 166A-M
8



and the authority was pretty limited. I think this is a good statement,&I


think that this was about right. Many Indian people, don't care much about


authority4 hey don't like authority, they don't want it themselves, and they


don't want anybody using it on them. And a*t therefore it's pretty difficult some-

for
timesVIndians to accept a Indian government as a really meaningful way of doing


business. But j with the advent of f Indian experiences with jW their white


neighbors and watching their political machinery in operation, and seeing how


everything would run and so on he Indains began to except a little bit more the


idea that there would be some sort of a political leadership, and that there'd


be some sort of a political organization which pwouldp have responsibility for


%Indian activities. Indian leadership was a sort ofI lfsely developed I guess


you'd say/and one group might be the religious people that were the leaders, in


another it might be the war leaders that were the heads of the various tribal


organizations. And g W there're some cases like the Sioux that had hereditary


chiefs and they handed down their a authority from father to son or from uncle to


a nephew or whatever method they used. Andok very few tribes had an elected


body. You gained a place of authority by your acts, and by what you were and what


you could do, and the respect that people had for you. And you functionedO on this


basis and from this premise. And A it was not considered good form to force your





SEM 166A-M
9



opinion on somebody else. As a matter of fact the Indian people are very reticent


to express their opinions. ~FChey'll listen, they're good listenersfhey'll


sit and listen to you for hours, but they won't say very much themselves. If you


call them and they they get up and look around at the group and they usually sit


down without saying to much. T6iJ W-i hey get a little flustered and they


don't say very much. So among them particularly among the full-blooded groups 4~-Ats


you don't have this (Vflair for 4 debate and flair forf confrontation that you


have in modern type of a governmental organizations. I understand and am told


that the reservation system caused an almost complete breakdown of a aboriginal


political forms. And that all functions of the government was performed by the


Indian agent, the superintendent. Now among the Sioux the superintendent is called


( e.^-- pe which means the father. And a his word is @P pretty strong as far as


the Indians are concerned. And I think this is true among most 4PijA tribes


that I've had anything to do with. It's true among the Seminoles that the man


py who spoke for the government spoke with a pretty strong voice Ond d had


to be listened to whether you like it or not. And if he wanted to do something

way
why that's what you did even though you thought you might have a betterof doing it


ou didn't say anything about that. You'd let him have his way. Then still another


Factor was thApgNAW paternalis that developed by the dole system the government used.





SEM 166A-M
10



The Indian leaders the men who were the hunters or th went out and got the


food g9 did the fighting and a so on, his whole mode of life was changed by


the reservation. There wasn't anyplace for him to go hunting and he certainly


couldn't go fight anybody. And they just about took all of his the basis for


manhood out 9 of existence, and $P so he had to he had to look in another direction.


And f some of the older people tell me that that's one of the reasons why the

tow
younger men on the reservation used togAP they'd get drunk and they'd fight among


themselves and #.they'd raise particular hell sometimes. AW*And the reason for


that they said was well they're they're a the Siouxs would say A.- C-

If 1 t t it H 10
which means he's a soldier or he hits, he's a man who touches. OA I guess
J

they l to C. But r anyway they say that and $ and I think


there's some reason for it because now if you have a little status on the


reservation it's causedA you get not because au4s e @ you're- smart


not because you acquire a lot of property. If you acquire a lot of property people


call you stingey because you're supposed to share what you have with your needy


relatives and needy friends. You're not supposed to accumulate a lot of property,


that isn't the way Indians do things. So a there are all of these problems which


4QMV on the reservation system did break down. So the status for the young men


was changed a little bit, changed to fighting for one thing and rough and tumble





SEM 166A-M
11



fighting, & broncbusting, athletics, any kind of activity which a permitted


you to use your muscles so on Those saej4 0 became the new 4 status


factors in the J1sW reservation situation. Now f as undesirable as the


reservation system is&B and 4*b as hard as some people tried/it still left a


a very strong, indelible mark on Indian people. And EaP early- ~sab after


the Indian Reorganization Act a number of tribes began to organize and set up


a a constitutional form of government, to elect their leaders, do what they


could to comply with the Indian Reorganization Act. o gonna dwell on this


because there'ss AI've provided a great deal of material about the early days


of the Indian Reorganization Act and some of the instructions that went out, and the


kind of a authorities that were incorporated in the constitutions. With the


establishment of a constitutional form of government by a great number of tribes,


the need began to develop for strong Indian leadership to a guide these political


entities and 4W this of course~ was a new field for the Indian leaders. And a

atcc -"
they had to be trained by Bureau of Indian Affairs actually to ar.es the role,


and exzept the responsibility, and to preform their duties in an acceptable manner.


For instance, as the chief reservation I remember everytime a


judge was appointed, an Indian judge, I'd bring him down to the agency, he and I


Should get in my office and we'd have a general review of the tribal law and order code.





SEM 166A-M
12



I'd explain the code to him, various types of laws that existed, and various


actions that he could take, and what his authority was, and what thedo enforcement


responsibilities of the police, and so on, and tried to get him to tried to


educate him. Because very often he'd be elected judge and 0 he wouldn't know


the first thing about law and order, have no background in it at all. And it would


take &W quite awhile for him to develop into a rsonably good judge. Well the


same thing was true with the tribal leaders. The chairman of the tribal council


he didn't know anything Robert's Rules of Order, he didn't know anything about a


voting and so on. And these things a usually the Indians acted on the unanimous


basis.if there was J )

act. But now they had a procedure for a resolving a a problems by voting on secret


ballots and nobody knewaJggfSBS where you stood and it was easy to express your


opinion that way. Andt A2SW2B ? if it was unanimous that'd be fine, if it


wasn't unanimous the majority governed whether it was for or against. And so all of


these things a the Indians had to learn, and of course the people that was available


to teach them was the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And I know personally from my own


experience that9P many of the early superintendents and the early officials just


had no conception of tribal government as such. And they#o it was this question of


blind leading the blind I guess, because they were having trouble interpreting the





SEM 166A-M
13



constitutions, they were having trouble trying to establish, help the


tribe establish good government. And a because they didn't understand fully


all of these things either. Now in the later years the Indian leadership


was4p much improved, E the younger people were getting better educated, we


were getting some college trained young people coming back to the reservation and


helping, we were getting some professional people, and they were beginning


to upgrade the type of leadership that could be given. Ando sometimes this all


wasn't always the best thing, because young leadership very often inexperienced


leadership. And of course sometimes it's better for a more experienced older man


to a with judgement to lead than a highly educated young fellow with no experience


because sometimes his judgment was more emotional than practical. So #Pmany of the


tribes went this process where the older people were replaced by younger leaders,


and the hope was that the younger leaders were better educated to do a better job.


But the end resultsfthey didn't. In many instances I don't know of except for


a few younger$ leaders who were really good men, they they would have developed


under any circumstances. But they were good men and they developed very rapidly.


Well a lot of the younger fellows who had to face up to the long term responsibilities


of their office just couldn't hack it then. They didn't do a very good job and had


to be replaced by other young people. Very often the people finally re-elected the





SEM 166A-M
14



old leaders back again, and they just lost some time. I can remember early in


the business when superintendent a would attend the tribal council meeting and


Indians talked in the Indian language and we had to use interpreters. The


superintendent would talk in English and the interpreter would have to interpret


What he said to the India they couldn't speek eac others languages. Now you


you go to these tribal council meetings and they're gratifying to see a these


a councilmen preform in a very businesslike manner, and really examine the


problems that are confronting their people, and willing to face reality, and trying


work out the means by which these problems can be resolved. dgSDAut no amount


of programing and no amount...


END OF TAPE A SIDE 1





SEM 166A-M
15



TAPE A SIDE 2



Itself was the Bureau of Indian Affairs4 also called the BIA. And a some of


the historical policies, some of the history and experiences that the bureau


has had and t then I've sort of a general summarization of the current programs


which a were in affect at least e6=s 1965 when I last a worked in the central


office in Washington D. C. To discuss the Bureau of Indian Affairs in all of its


ramifications is a highly complicated and very a puzzling problem because there're


so many facets, there are so many different angles, and there are so many different


ways that this can be approached. And I would like to examine this ratheao'


analytically, and unbiased if that's possible to the degree at least that is possible,


and to keep the facts as a well supported as I possibly can. One would wonder


why I felt that I would be capable as a person to undertake such a a description


of such a large organization. Andc I think it's only fair for me to a lay out


some of my background so that you get some idea of i the basis for some of my


opinions and some of my views. I was born on _Sisseton reservation in Sisseton


SPierre, South Dakota, on April 27, 1913. Both my mother and my father are Indian.


I came from an Indian-speaking home. I spent much of my early childhood on the


reservation usually with my grandmother Mrs. Elizabeth White whom everybody affectionate
/ ) / I





SEM 166A-M
16



called ___ which in Sioux means grandmother t And that interruption


was my grandson demanding a little attention which he does in a loud voice.


To get back to the subject. My first experience with the Bureau of Indian Affairs


was in 1920 when my mother took me to the Wahpeton Indian School in Wahpeton, North


Dakota. Now this school is a boarding school and a a it's sort of like a military


school. We we lived a very regimented life there. We had companies, it was a


militarily organized, we had companies, we drilled and we had officers, and


we had responsibilities. And on Sundays we had9 little grey uniforms that we wore


and we had little wooden guns they gave us and we marched around the parade grounds


after Sunday dinner. And the people in town would come out in their buggies and


cars and park around the parade ground and watch us. And we'd march back and forth


there around for quite awhile before we were finally turned lose. And by the time


we got into the dormitories those little grey uniforms were really itching our


necks and backs because they they weren't very comfortable. I remember that very


distinctly. I also remember that4pthe food wasn't4the best in the world but you


had to hustle to get your share of it. ]il Ets conditions were extremely strict.


at Wahpeton in those days. We had what we called disciplinarians oho0didn't try


any counseling,-0. Cheir sole# responsibility seemed 4A SU______


corporal punishment to the erring students. And we were lined up Devenings for our




SEM 166A-M
17



spankings which were administered with a short rubber hose. Not viciously I don't


think but they were administered pretty 4 strongly. And we knew none of us


wanted to go up there for that. I don't remember a lot about that situation. I


was there from 1920, '21, and '22. I developed some bad sores on my legs which


refused to heal and my mother was told about it ando so she came up and... I was


in the hospital and they were trying to cure those sores, and they couldn't. So


my mother decided she'd take me home o I went home. And that was my last


experience with boarding school for awhile. And then a I attended public school


on the Sisseton reservation. Now the situation there in Si ton was quite common


I think & throughout Indian country. Sisseton where the agency headquarters was,


is A not an Indian town in the sense that a lot of the Indian people thereA lot


of Indian people live around on the reservation, but very few in those days lived


in town. My grandmother lived in town. She was married to a Robert White who was


a # retired sergeant-major from Fort Sisseton, and a he was quite a respected member


of the community. And after he O was through farming br -- the


allotted the land that was allotted to his family for several years he built a house


and moved into town. So my grandmother was probably the first Indian woman to live in


town permanently. Ag tut there were very few other Indian families there and a


consequently there were very few Indian children going to public school. And a we got





SEM 166A-M
18



our fair share of attention from the students. They were pretty hostile towards


us most of the time. The few of us that were there we had a lot a pretty hard


time. Most of the Indian kids would drop out of school and go to one... In

Indian school
1930, '29, '30, and '31 I again attended at Haskell Institute which is at


Lawrence, Kansas. This time things were a little bit different. I was.A


among a lot of other Indian children, here was no white children in that


school. And at that time a Haskell was &run on a semi-military basis a like


aa Wahpeton was. We we had companies and we did a little drilling and and


t we marched to and from the mess hall, and we had inspections and so on.


And we didn't carry any guns and we didn't have to wear any uniforms. Butgt we


aSh had officers and we were pretty regimented. And A- Haskell was a k place


were a lot of Indians in those days wanted to go. A lot of Indian children


wanted to go to Haskell because it had a pretty good reputation among Indians,


it was a school that Oadvocated athletic programs of all kinds. Ande I


was quite interested in athletics. But it turned out when I got to Haskell that


I was way to small to participate in the types of a athletic activities going


on there. There were-plerny University of Notre Dame-awd football nd North


Dakota and Minnesota and Oklahoma, Kansas some of the goiSV some of the


big schools, and Georgia Fech and so on. And of course I only weighed about* 135





SEM 166A-M
19



pounds and soaking wet. And they wouldn't even issue me a uniform. So


I O didn't go out for football or basketball. But I did like athletics. And

there
they had a (mSboxing programWhich I i kind of liked boxing so I went out for


that. And f it was like ever other a athletic program that Haskell had, they


they went all out in their training and everything else. We ran five miles every


nightB the first thing we did, and then we had 1p calisthenics for quite awhile.


And then ggg we* kept this up until we were in pretty good shape and then they


they brought some instructors out and they the older boys aB instructed the


new boys, you know. And a they were pretty rough with us but i it's the


only way you can learn. So gQ I boxed. I was I told them I was sixteen, I


actually was only fifteen. And I kind of lied my way into the


boxing squad. But they ate they ate at the athletic dining room over in the


gymnasium and not with the rest of the students, they ate a lot better. So a


one of the reasons I was interested in boxing was because their dining room was


so much better than ours. ButP I learned quite a bit. I was-eaa-a novice of


course. And rwe boxed a quite a quite a lot. We boxed in Missouri Valley Golden


Glove, ando we boxed several of the big schools like the University of Kansas,


and we went down to Oklahoma and boxed the University of Oklahoma, we boxed with a


the University of Nebraska. And of course, they'd take some of us novicea longhand





SEM 166A-M
20



we'd get a chance to box with other novices. And a so it was quite an interesting


thing. It was I enjoyed quite a bit and it turned out to be something that was


influential in my life later on. After '31 I went back to Sisseton to school.


And I and I was a junior in high school at that time. They a I of course a was


big enough for high school athletics and I played football, and basketball, and


track. They didn't have boxing there but I participated in all other athletic


programs. And I made most it*I was on all of the teams. I was on the football


team, and the basketball team] I was on the track team. So even though there


were by this time there were a few more Indians in the school thin had been. But


even though there were a few more Indians in the school they was still giving us


pretty rough treatment. And as for my boxing it came in handy. And it sort of


like it developed into kind of a peculiar way. rst one then another was


challenging me. And I kind of worked my way through the most of the young fellows


in 40 school that/ wanted to try me out before they finally decided they'd leave


me alone. And after i they got acquainted with me and@ found out that I


wasn't going to run from them ande that I might cause a little damage if they


insisted j on boxing or fighting. AndP so I had several pretty rough fights


in in high school. And a the other Indian kids kind of looked up to me. Some of


- them were my cousins and they looked to me" for a little protection. So I kind of




SEM 166A-M
21





took them under my wing and nV2W6k I sort of kind of stood in the breach so

0-
as to speek as far as they were concerned. And so we we had a much better time


of it. And some of the other kids come along were pretty good athletes and a


then a a we made the team. And &but I think there was only three boys of any


size in high school. And we were all on -0 our athletic teams. So well


if they didn't like it too well some of them but they they had to put up with


us because they couldn't do much about it. I graduate high school there in


1932. And I $ was the only Indian who graduated high school that year. And


I was the only boy in my graduating class who didn't get some kind of job

O
around or I had a job and one of the other boys father went to see my prospective


employer and Ag his son got the job instead of me. So I Rind of got discouraged


with Sisseton. And I thought well its time for me to look at the rest of the


world so I left. I went back down to Kansas City where my mother living at that


time with my step-father. I went to business college there for a couple of


years. Then I went out west to see if I could find work. And while I was out


working out west over in the state of Washington *I was getting out COr" o'O


out there. I was working pretty hard. 4I'd taken the civil service examination


while I was in i L the business college in Kansas City. And a they finally come to





SEM 166A-M
22



my name I guess a couple two or three years later, and they offered me a job
/ /L1J CC Vdqlley f5ervvf^vl7
in the Bureau of Indian Affairs at Owyhee, Nevada And a so a I accepted the


job. I went out there. I started in ad@Pas the Indian assistant clerk. Now


40in those days the Bureau of Indian Affairs was hiring Indians but they they'


didn't give them the regular civil service positions. They gave them.#?jobs<


below the civil service grades. Now in other words /d4qS in those days it was

I I -
a CAF 1 well I wasa not a CAF 1lI was a"0Indian Assistant Clerk .hat meant


that they could start me in at ninety dollars a month instead of a twelve-sixty


tia the 45 hundred and five dollars that the other civil service people I had


to start at ninety. Butt at least it was a start. And I got started. I was


at Nevada from 1936 to 1937'I was at the Owyhee agency. AndA that thisOl
/

was a Shoshoni and a Paiute tribe. And while I was there I met my wife Dora.


She's a member of the Shoshoni and Paiute tribes. And we were married there. And


a we lived there. And then in 1938 we got transferred to Washington. I went to


Washington D. C. and I worked in the and division of the Washington office a


the central office. I was in the Land acquisition section. Under the Indian


Reorganization Act Oongress was authorizing purchase of land for Indians for


needy landless Indians. And so I was working he unit that was buying this land.


And although I had no experience of this type I learned quite bit in the Washington
I


~




SEM 166A-M
24



office. I was there from 1938 to '42. Then in 1943 I transferred to a the


Crow Creek agency in South Dakota as chief clerk. And at that time I was*


quite young, I guess I was twenty-nine. And I was the youngest Indian ever


appointed chief clerk-t Well in those days the chief clerks job was ~just like


the superintendents*it "" wasn't the assistant superintendent but he had
J

exactly the same authority as the superintendent did. And in the superintendents


absence he was the only man in the agency who could function as superintendent. So


#chief clerk was a quite an important position. At least I thought so, I


was quite proud of myself to get that kind of a job. And I stayed at Crow Creek


until 1947. Then in 1948 I transferred the Fort Berthold agency in North Dakota.


The superintendent there Ben( Jt. had come down and talked to me, and wanted


me to come up there and and work with him. Thef&p Vxf F e- Mandan, and

AC ri arA [oo&4
reqvo s tribes of the Fort Berthhold reservation were gonna be t-h-erd out of

their reservation by the rrison.anft. And things were pretty hectic up there, and


he wanted somebody who could sort of a ride herd on that situation while he fought


that So problem of relocating all of those Indians. And a then in '48 Og Mr. ,


was offered a scholarship at Harvardi andP &so he went to school,and left me there.


I was appointed superintendent then in 1948 at Fort Berthold. And actually again)


I wasn't the first choice. Most of the seasoned, experienced superintendent in the




SEM 166A-M
25



Bureau had turned down that job. Because there was something like 3,000


Indians that had to be moved and lock, stock, and barrel, and they were a pretty


unhappy bunch. And they didn't like what was happening, and they were pretty


mad about it. And they weren't willing to talk 9 weren't willing to negotiate


with anybody, not the CorpSof engineers, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, or


nobody else. And the prospect of having to deal with those Indians and their


mood at that time didn't appeal to very many people. So they offered that job


to I know at least ten different people that turned it down. And finally as a


last resort they offered it to me. Because although I was experienced enough to


handle it I thought my age again was a #factor whichJ was a hindrance. Because


I was thirty-four and at that age most people a would not be considered# for


superintendent. They they didn't start picking superintendents until they got


into their middle forties. They wanted more mature men. Because they felt the


man in that job had to make a wide variety of decisions on a wide variety of


subjects and he was theft man on the spot so as to speak. And he had to make on-


the-spot decisions, anda he didn't have many people that he could go to when
A

he'd have a made a decision it usually had to stick. So and in a situation of


great duress like tha and highly charged emotional things ) they were


a little reluctant to appoint me. But I was recommended and( I did get the job.





SEM 166A-M
26



And a I took office in 1948 as superintendent at a Fort Berthold. Well I


stayed there '48 through '52, I was there five years. And I stayed at Fort


Berthold through that whole relocation period. I helped get a settlement


for their land claims. They lost a 155,000 acres against a &e land right


in the middle of their reservation, the best part of their reservation was


gone. I helped relocate the 3,000 Indians, and helped reestablish all the


facilities that they needed" schools,.roads, utilities, medical services,


and administrative services, and so on. And I # was well I helped the***


and what if we say we relocated those Indians that didn't mean we just picked


them up and moved them over here. They had allotments and some of them


wanted to live on their allotments, some of them didn't. And the ones that


didn't we had to exchange their land to somebody that in an area they wanted


to live. So a under the old Fort Berthold situation the lived


in one community and the G&7PS vres lived in another one, and the Mandans


lived in another one. Well they weren't allotted that way. Their allotments


were scattered all over the reservation on the basis of a first-come first-

6)
serve~9 So # if they had moved according to the way their lands were allotted


They would have gotten into a lot of there would have been mixing OS and


the Indians don't want to do that. And so there were all kinds of problems. Well




SEM 166A-M
27



anyway I was there five years until after things pretty well worked out. Then


a I was transferred to ) CfOi') dIschool in Utah. And a the commissioners office


wanted the school reorganized and wanted me to go out there and do that. So they


told me it's gonna he a short assignment. But and it was, I Owas only there I was


there & from '53 through '54. Then in 1955 the bureau transferred me to the Menominiee


agency in Wisconsin. Now this again was another special project. And that was a
eoc
I was transferred there as program officer. The job there was to the federal


government was in the mood to withdraw federal supervision over tribal affairs


wherever this was possigo And so they had two major projects' One was at a Menomine-


in Wisconsin, and the other one was "ft the (~i O{4 reservation in


Oregon. And ~aF so they handled it in two different ways I was assigned to


lMenomin&eas a program officer on the spot ( whereas in the .C(,IM"'t reservation
- /

situation the program officer was the area office level and the superintendent did


the program work. Well that didn't work to well but anyway I was there for & just


a short time. I was there in '55, '56. And then 'after we got the Memomine-t-


thing sort of structured and( got the framework up andp it was a question of 9i96 S


finishing the job they d i went through three superintendents in pretty fast order.


And but I outlasted all three of them. Butgt I didn't last too long after after we


-got things pretty well worked out because I began to be a threat to the Indians. I knew





SEM 166A-M
28


0
too much about what was going on I had too much information. They didn't like


to have me around. So I finally got transferred to Washington. Now the Washington


office a a wanted to transfer me back to Washington on a number of occasions I


always objected. I objected this time. But it turned out that that was the only


assignment that was available at that time. And so I decided well I'll go back


to Washington and see what's going on and stay back there for awhile. # I'd been


there once beforepdidn't like it too well, and I didn't want to go back. But I


didn't have much choice this time. So I went back to Washington. And I was chief


of the a branch of (ribal Oerations in Washington. I started out as chief of the


Tibal government section nd then that a a responsibility and position was enlarged and


I became a branch chief and a a I was given full responsibility for all tribal


operations and activities. And I prepared some tapes on that and and also my


papers on my activities as tribal operations officer which I'll consider as separate /


so I won't go into this anymore than that. But 4gg I was there in I went there in


'56 a '57 and I stayed there till '65. And I had I developed some hypertension


and medical problems. And &they the doctors advised me to take an assignment that


was less demanding. So a I was transferred to the Seminole agency in Florida. And I


work in Seminole until I retired in '68. I retired on a disability retirement. And a


so that's been my general background on in Indian affairs of for I would say most of





SEM 166A-M
29



my life I have been closely associated with a Indian affairs, both as an Indian


and then as ASVI~A an employee of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And I so I have


some background and general knowledge about this subject which may be unique in that


a? few people ndian descent has had the opportunity to enjoy the wide range of


experiences that I I've had. I want the people who are going to use this information


to know that I started out in SS the bureau in a *P very minor position and d over


a long period of time I graduated to p through various stages almost all of the stages


I guess I didn't miss very many steps in the bureau until I got into Washington and


AP on several occasions during the last few years I was in washington I was acting


* commissioner of Indian affairs. So I did have a lot of a experience and a I think


that a it's important for people to know that because I'm going to express opinions


and people are going to wonder where I got my ideas, and they're gonna wonder why I


presume to know as much as I do about some of these things. But a I don't want it to


sound presumptuous, and I don't want to sound as though I'm alI consider myself l


something of a authority on Indian affairs. I don't really think that I am I think


a I know quite a bit about the Bureau of Indian Affairs. I know a lot about & the


governments operation handling of the Indian affairs. I know something about the


tribes g operations and how they function, And I know a lot about a a different


tribes, their views about many subjects. Because I was exposed to them for a long





SEM 166A-M
30



time. But g&i I just want the people to know who listening to know that I do


have some premise from which I express my opinion. The next thing I'd like to do


is to sort to give a free hand sketch so as to speak of the relationship between


the federal government and the Indians from the colonial until 1965. I will


discuss only some of the major policy trends and the major legislation and some of


our present programs. And I think I I should do this, because later on I'll want


to talk about attitudes not only of Indians but of government employees about tribal


affairs. I want to talk about some of the internal programs 0 problems that exist.


I want to talk about some of the problems some of the programs that that the bureau's


advocating for the benefit of Indians...


END OF TAPE A SIDE 2




SEM 166A-M
31



TAPE B SIEl 1



Which I might catorgorize as g line auctions within the bureau which I did not


specifically mention. But I believe a their importance did not deminish by this


failure to discuss these activities. But I would like to mention a few a of these


in order to round out the picture: Such functions as forestry services, irrigation,


realty, soil and moisture conservation, grazing services, extension services round out


the functions of the bureau in the management of the tribal and individual Indian


resources. And mo are continuing responsibility. Then in the field of r~-r S--


services the bureau provides a service at most agencies a concerning the leasing of a


Indian land both for agriculture and for grazing purposes. We also provide the


services for a transferring ownership of Indian land, sales, exchanges, and a the


bureau also haintainss a special service a for a handling the problem of inheritance


which has now gotten to be a very serious problem in Indian ownership of property.


The reason for that of course is that Indians have never considered that property in l


same light that 4 the American people consider it- They do not for instance very


often make wills and so property descends from one large family group to the next.


And until the present time some of the allotted lands are owned by people who have


a one ten millionth of an interest in 160 acres of land. This might seem to be an


exageration but it really isn't because we do have a CS C*e 4 problems that have




SEM 166A-M
32



the only way that a the lease money that is gained from the rental of these


properties can be divided is by a dS computer of some kind. The bureau also


provides the service with respect to individual Indian money, and that is money


that the government feels should be handled for Indians. Now some of this


money is b aw required to be deposited with the superintendent or with the


AIreau of Indian affairs. And that money is considered to be trust money.


And this is money is deposited in the U. S. Treasury to in an account under


the superintendent's $ special dispersing agents authority. In other words,


the superintendent can sign the checks against all of these accounts. I know


when I was superintendent at Fort Berthold t much of the lease money went


into these accounts and I have had as much as a five or six million dollars


in these accounts at one time. And # I maintained f normally about a 2,000


individual Indian money accounts constantly in the U. S. Treasury. And I


was a special dispersing office officer, and I had my own checks numbered


Treasury checks, and I was responsible a for all of the money going in and


goang and going out of these accounts. And I also was responsible for collecting


money for the federal government, and/Ae for g& funds that were used in


transactions between Indians. So that the question of a a the superintendent


of an agency acting as a trustee over tribal property is a rather large a responsibility





SEM 166A-M
33



in terms of his time. Most agencies where you have a lot of land you have an


individual Indain money clerk and you have a lease clerk, and sometimes two or


three of each depending on the volume. The superintendent no longer # has a


special dispersing agent account. This account is now handled is consolidated


at the area level. And all collections and deposits are made into the area


directors account, and all checks are issued #at his office. But when I was


superintendent all this work was done at the agency. And of course in addition


to these responsibilities we had a lot of work to do with respect to the &gW


custodial operations. In other words at the say at the Fort Berthold we had

So
a hospitals probably had 152 150 or government buildings, and a we had roads,


and utilities, and #we hadP our own telephone lines, ande we provided&P


all of the highway services within the reservation except for &V state roads


that crossed the reservation. And 4( we provided g4 for these services MS


on a year round basis. Now in the winter time 1 snow removal was a very serious


matter with us because our roads were so poor) in some instances that if the


snow wasn't removed pretty quick people would soon get isolated nd you wouldn't


have to have people isolated to long before you'd have some sort of medical


emergency or law order emergency or something going on and which you'd have to


get to but W you'd have to wait until the roads were cleared in order to get




SEM 166A-M
34



there. So we had a a continuing responsibility along these lines which lots


of people never think about, but P which Sf actually did F take a lot of


our time. Now on top of all of this someone had to be responsible for the money


that was appropriated, to see that it was spent properly. Someone had to be


responsible for all the employees that were employed, to see that they did their


jobs, and see that they were rewarded with promotions or transferred ~P when


p this was necessary, and all sorts of things all sorts of personnel action.


We had 0 we had a wide open program of a administration. The Bureau of Indian


Affairs was constantly advoctingjf improved g administrative techniques. And


*we had people whose a whole career was premised on their ability to a handle


the management functions of the Bureau of Indian Affairs not only at the

at
agency level, but\the area level, and at the Washington office level. I'm sure


that as we go along I'll find that I've either omitted some important function of


the breau or slighted a function that is important o-my -end very briefly


mentioning it. But it isn't my privilege at this point o to go into


operating detail on every activity of the bureau. I'm merely trying to give an


overall view of the a jurisdiction of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, 4 and some


of its activities, and the needs of Indian groups Indian tribes, and &*; the f


position the Bureau's in to provide some of these needs. Andb also to give you some




SEM 166A-M
35



background as to my own a experience as an individual and as an employee of


the bureau so that you can regard my opinions on the bureau &VOSP9^0


from this basis. In order to show theA organization of the Bureau of Indian


Affairs in 1965 when I was 4 still in the bureau I drew up a chart which


shows the various major functions of the bureau, and4 the people who were in


charge of those functions at that time. Let's start with the Cmmissioner of


Indian Affairs. The commissioner of course is nominated and appointed by the


?resident of the United States, and it's necessary that he be confirmed by the


U. S., enate. Now the commissioner is directly responsibility to theTg secretary


of the Sterior. And ~effgthe secretary in his organization has an assistant


secretary whosejOione of whose responsibilities is the Bureau of Indian Affairs.


So the commissioner works directly with the assistant secretary and with the


secretary a depending who's handling a particular matter. The commissioner also


works directly with(ongress. He works with the in the House with the AV


committee onfinterior and nsular/ffairs which handles all of the Indian all of


the special legislation.of the Indiang..B1B people. And he also works directly


with, the Interior and Isular' s affairs appropriations committee Now there


are the same types of committees in the U. S. senate. So he has actually four


groups whom he is more of less in constant touch with agWlfggfgfI over the years.




SEM 166A-M
36



Now the commissioner is has of course sole responsibility for a the operation


of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And it is to him that all of the secretarial


authority is delegated, he's the man who receives all this authority and puts


it into affect. And now he also has a right 9 if the

does not prohibit it to redelegate this to the area directors and to the


superintendents. Bureau of Indian Affairs is operated on a line and staff basis.


Line officers are the people who have authority to make decisions that is the


(mmissioner of Indian Affairs, the associate commissioner, and a deputy commissioner.

Now these three men or these three offices -are# sort of a triumvirate, they


have eea authority. And they for instance if the commissioner is gone and the


deputy commissioner is gone the associate commissioner automatically is acting. If


the commissioner and the associate commissioner are gone the deputy is automatically


acting. And they all have the same authority so that they can all do the same


thing that they have no handicap so far as administration is concerned now from


a delegated authority point of view. Then the next level of.g authority in the


in the central office is the assistant commissioner. In 1965 we hadq an assistant


(-ommissioner for ommunity- services who was We had an Asistant


commissioner for sources which was E.I 4 f c T We had a assistant


-cmmissioner for Oadministration who was a Fred H. Massey. We had gggpand those were




SEM 166A-M
37


the line officers in the in jA the Washington office in so far as the management


of the bureau was concerned. Now we had some special line officers who had


special functions. We had for instance a ssistantommissioner for Lgislation.


Now he was a line officer in so far as legislative matters were concerned and*


he worked directly with the commissioner. But he also worked directly with all


of the other levels of the ureau. In other words he didn't stay in channels


if he had to information from the superintendent he called him up direct and got


it, or if he needed information from an area director he called him up direct and


got it. Ando and he JO didn't follow the normal& channels within the breau.


He went across channels and- because most of the work that he was doing required


some early action. Then there was the Asistant Qommissioner for T policyy

matters that was Mr. Riley, Rod Riley. The commissioner brought him in, he was a
)
strictly a political appointee, he was strictly Philleo Nash's man. And he had


a lined authority gS on the projects that were assigned to him not in the


normal operations of the bureau but on special projects. In addition to these two


men the commissioner had reporting directly to him an assistant who& sort of

fhis office. He was 4"t.j in charge of the&CS commissioners


office so as to speak. He managed the flow of work in and out ando,ylps he reviewed


all of the incoming matters to see who should be biiffS&MiS- handling itAwhether it




SEM 166A-M
38



should go directly to the commissioner, to the associate, or to the deputy, or


whether it should go to the department for final review. Andt heW sort of y


was the A~i. administrator and looked after thelireau Ffront office. Then we


had the formation Officer. And thefnformation officer was in constant contact


with contact with the a commissioner. @ 4II matters of importance, all happenings


were reported to him. And Ihe Oh discussed these with the commissioner usually by


telephone or go up to talk to him briefly and to get his views on what should be

it It It
done, or the commissioner would say go talk to the associate or go talk to the

tt it It
deputy or go talk to the assistant for administration or resources or somebody


else, and then he would go and discuss it with those people. But sgif'all the


breau's information 0g"s0 went into directly to him. And then he evaluated


this and decide and then on those things that were of of major importance he took


them directly to the commissioner. The rest of it he wor out with the commissioners


assistants. And then #there was A the commissioners Philleo Nash appointed -


what he termed the operating committee. This committee was fW composed of the


assistant to the commissioner on policy and administration, and the associate


commissioner,and deputy commissioner,and the three assistant commissioners, and


also mysel I was on the committee I was chief of the branch of tribal operations


and I was a staff officer but I was on the committee primarily because of my general




SEM 166A-M
39



knowledge of tribal affairs, and the fact that I was usually in a contact on


all major tribal problems of the moment. Andb& so I was able to gives information


pretty speedily on situations which some of these people normally wouldn't be


involved with. In other words a project can be handled 4.Pe by a staff member#


until you get to a decisionwmaking point in which the line officer may never know


about it until it does get to that point. And when the decision is madethen


.........a............ that's the first time he's brought into the picture. And we


have so few line officers in the iSOBe central office and so many staff officers


that the line officers had to be protected or otherwise the staff officers would


involve them in every transaction at every a[g opportunity and we just waste


their time. So this is the way this worked out. The operating committee had


a function which #was *unique with with dPhilleo Nash. Philleo Nash wanted the


major problems brain storms so as to speak andt he'd bring together this committee


whenever he had a problem. And he'd lay this problem out on the table and and we'd


all take a wack at it. Ando then && he'd get our recommendations and he'd go right


down the line. He'd say, what do you recommend, you, you what is your recommendations,


he said. And he'd put you on the line, you couldn't hide from him. He'd say he said,


if you can't alsiBlM make up your mind you don't belong on this committee. And


Sso everybody had an opinionow it wasn't always we weren't always unanimous. But we
so everybody had an opinion


1




SEM 166A-M
40


did have and the commissioner sometimes didn't go with the unanimous decision
A

sometimes he took an independent route, or he wen omeindividual who had a point


that he subscribed toV as against the majority view of the group. This committee

also met on all executive appointments. In other words superintendents, assistant


area directors, area directors, branch chiefs, and .43 all of the major appointments


within the ireau that Mr. Nash had anything to do with these were considered by

the committee. Now this is something that had never had been done before, and aot


of these people didn't like it. Because the old method ofA handling appointments


was that ~S the assistant commissioner would know that some position is going to

become vacant andg he'd go to one of his friends and say hy the superintendency

0,,
over here is gonna be vacant you got anybody in mind that might be a good man?

And and his friend would tell him, yeah I got a couple two or three. And he'd give

two or three names you know. And a so the commissioner would then go to the


assistant commissioner would go to the commissioner and sayp this position is


going to become vacant and I've been checking out a little bit and now I'm told

.that these are some real good people who are highly qualified g g -MOBiggg
A
maybe you'd like to consider these. And then he'd give him the brochures on them

all just the people that these people decided among themselves a would fit the bill


- and gno one else got a look-in. And then Pthat would be the way it was habad P.





SEM 166A-M
41



Well now Commissioner Nash was putting all these appointments out in the open.


And everybody, every assistant commissioner, every member of the operating


committee had an opportunity to express his opinion. Andt you'd be surprised


how knowledgeable these guys were on the actual operations of each of these


agencies even though some of these fellows were just new in the Bureau of Indian


Affairs. The deputy commissioner was John 0. Crow. And in his office and reporting


directly to him he had the officpf audit which was a a headed up by Milton Boyd,


and the office of a inspection which was headed by a Mr. Joyce. Now these two


men a were sort of the watch dogs of the bureau. They* Milt Boyd examined the


the financial actions of -all of the installations. He had a staff of auditors


stationed out at Albuquerque and Lthey never came to Washington. He had I


guess ten twelve men out there and they were constantly auditing, they were at


one agency or another all of the time. And during the course of the year these


people were able to get to every installation in the bureau. And, so you knew


that ,all of your actions was going to be examined, and that these fellows would


and these fellows were quite 3 reserved they didn't get too well acquainted with


a the rank and file members of the of the people or tried not to get too friendly


with everybody because they they had this job of a kind of peeking over the shoulder


to see what was going on. And I knew both of these4quite well. As a matter of fact,





SEM 166A-M
42



I worked with Milton Boyd when he was the assistant mill manager at the Menominge-


reservation and I was a the program officer there. We got pretty well acquainted


there. I worked a couple of years with him. He was quite a intelligent guy. And


i he'd been an auditor most of hiseh career which extended over some thirty years


in the reau. So he was pretty knowledgeable. And Mr. Joycee was aemman of


-is impeccableA integrity. He was a man who g was transferred from the postal


service to the interior department because he was an embarrassment to them. He


get kept telling them what was going on and they didn't want to hear it. And so


frankly they moved him over to the department of the interior and he did the same


thing there. He told you everything that was going on whether you wanted to hear


it or not. And, 0his reports were very consice and they were in confidential but


they were very,& informative. Andf he reported directly to the commissioner, deputy


commissioner. Now the associate commissioner was Jim C. the was a newcomer


to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. John 0. Crow was an Indian, and I went to school


with him at Haskell back in '28 or '29, '30, '31. And he was quite a football


player. And from after he graduated Haskell he almost immediately went to work


for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And he'd been in the bureau for a long long time.


And ~ he's been a superintendent, he's been all over the southwest. And ( so John


is "was real experienced in bureau activitieS. Now JimC C on the other




SEM 166A-M
43



hand was a newcomer to the bureau of Indian affairs. He was an anthropologist.


He was with the University of Arizona at Tucson. And he was a good friend oiW


) Stewart Udall who was commissioner ofndian affairs, And he was in fact


Stewart Udall's unofficial Indian advisor when he gwas congressman. So (..


now Jim came in. AndGf my branch tribal operations reported directly to him,


he was my immediate superior. And Paul Philips who was in tribe ,was in charge


of the branch programs he reported directly to Mr. C'' And these a a


operations we didn't a for instance I didn't have to a clear with anybody on


tribal operations matters. As a matter of fact I had direct access to the


commissioners office. There was the commissioner for a long time wanted me


directly on his staff. But they decided among themselves for one reason or


another that I should be attached to the associate commissioner. It really didn't


make that much difference to me because it didn't hamper mytrassociations with


commissioner when I needed to have them. Now te- m6a-k-an the next level in the


bureau, this is the top level, the commissioner, the associate commissioner, and the


deputy commissioner. Now the next level of a line officers are is the the4ssistant


Commissioner for community services Selene ____ Now she came in with


a Dillon Myer. And 1' she came in O,4 highly recommended. She was f quite a


an experienced person in the field of social science. Her major activity was welfare




SEM 166A-M
44



I think. But a a she had a lot of experience in education. Reporting directly


to her was, Hildegard Thompson who was a Cief of the ranch of education .


And a this was probably the single biggest branch in the bureau. Over half the


almost half of the employees and three quarters of thdoney was allocated for


this purpose. And then a the next a branch was a the anch of Law and order,

and Bill 3f;r l')2 reported to Selene Bill *C again was


an Indian boy and I knew him at Haskell. He...


END OF TAPE B SIDE 1





SEM 166A-M
45



Tape B Side 2



First tape, at the end of the first tape was that no amount of programing or


money or good intentions will achieve satisfactory goals for Indian people


without their participation, and without their leadership. To attempt to


carry on such program without Indian participation would be just to create


tensions and hostility and frustration and anxieties among the people. Because


a these policies have already been used and are certainly* not successful


means ofg administration. And g it's completely understandable that Indian


people want to have and should have an important role in helping themselves get


some of these things taken care of. And 4S when someone starts to a act as


though they knew all of the answers and leave the Indian people out of it


that's when trouble starts. The Bureau of Indian Affairs has a number of


programs which are all which are important. And they're '~jiS rather complicated.


Now the thing that a complicates these things is sometimes the very size of the


problem. In order to a get a little bit understanding of what we're talking


about I I think we need to know that in Alaska there are about 250 permanent


native villages scattered along the Artic slope to Point Barrow, along the Aleutian


Chains, up the Yukon River to Canada, and along the southeast coastline. We estimate




SEM 166A-M
46


A(CLtL /Hrj
about 25,000 Eskimos, and Ale, and ___ and Tlingit, and Haida Indians.


And about ninety villages are formally organized with written organic documents.


Now in the rest of the United States we have a about '9( recognized tribes, bands,


pueblos, colonies etc. 154 are formally organized and the rest are not. We


estimate approximately 550,000 Indians of which 380,000 are within the scope of
)

our programs, and the rest live away from Indian country. Our Indian adults are


only about half as well educated as other Americans. They live only two-thirds


as long as other Americans. Their annual incomes are somewhat somewhere between


one-fourth and one-third as large as other Americans. And 4W unemployment,


they stand about six or seven times below the> I mean above the national average.


And jowe don't need to dwell on all of these problems, it's statistics, except to


point out that they add up to poverty grinding, soul-destroying kind of poverty.


And our national conscience is involved in this problem. It is not only prudent


but it is essential that people in the Bureau of Indian Affairs know about these


conditions. And& they need to know that conditions and statisticss # the


likes of which we've talked about there have to be dak~ with when you espouse


the kind of goals that the bureau espoused in 1965. For instance they a 1.)


they wanted to maximize Indian economic self-sufficiencyA2. they wanted full


participation of Indians in American li an 3.) they wanted equal citizen citizenship
/ eLl e -icc .e :- tiL




SEM 166A-M
47



privileges and responsibility for Indian people. Now these things or goals


can be very glibly stated, but to implement them in a satisfactory manner


requires highest motives and qualification. The administration of these


far flung interests and responsibilities by the Bureau of Indian Affairs is


no simple task. And it requires not only money and people, but it requires


the kind of direction and leadership that the Indian people should have in


their own government. Let's take a look at some of thed currentg~problems


and programs of theBureau. Education is by far the a single biggest function


of the ireau in terms of money and people. We operate about 265 schools andj


# this is annually bding increased, but not fast enough to keep up with the


steadily increasing reservation population. The schools range from single classroom


units in remote areas to to the 2,100 student boarding school at Brigham City.


The educational program provides for boardingghome Sando boarding home care,


day schools, and also for Ihighschools elementary Tos-iigh school activities


at the places like Haskell. And a it also envisions the highest use of elementary


public schools 0 public schools I should say wherever possible. In education


aside from the usual problems we have special problems in counseling, and special


curricular, and language instructions where language deficiencies exist, problems


arising out of poor home environment, isolation, and the facilities are either too





SEM 166A-M
48



small or entirely lacking. Three out of every five dollars appropriated


goes either into education or Ja-p e in to the construction of educational


facilities or other directly related activity. Sogmost of the people in


the bureauu and most of the money in the Preau is directed in the field of


education. In the field of welfare most of our eligible Indians received


catagorical assistance from the state in a county welfare program. The


bureau's job is primarily to provide direct assistance to needy people not


eligible under social security, assistance like for instance theta aid to


dependent children, old age assistance, aid to the blind, and aid to the permanently


or totally disabled. We also provide a social service with emphasis on rehabilitation


rather than dependency. But in most reservations you have a depressed economic


situation, and the people there need assistance and they have no way of


providing for themselves and therefore even though we all recognize that &,the


dole or the handout or whatever you want to call it is not a good things in


the absence of a economic opportunity in the absence of employment)in the absence


of an opportunity to earn a living something else has to take its place,and that


something is usually welfare. Law and order is a very complicated and completing


problem. Most of the Indian reservations are still outside of the states criminal


and civil jurisdiction. And federal jurisdiction* for major crimes still applies




SEM 166A-M
49



to all reservations. And tribal criminal a civil jurisdictions also apply


for lesser crimes and misdemeanors. Andeg so the cost of law enforcement


and the judicial services, the care and feeding of prisoners, and the


maintenance of retention facilities, a the purchase of vehicles mother vehicles,


and all of these things are financed usually by a a joint effort of the bureau


and the tribe. In many instances the tribeipays its judge and its policemen,


and the bureau provides facilities, and so on. Butdgin other situations


where the tribe has no income and is unable to provide for itself the bureau


has to provide all of these services. Sop the situation is agrmmna0 handled


on a basis of the financial ability of thedparticular tribe. If they're able


to they i Fpay-N i|g) for their own service if they're not the-breau steps in


and pays for them. The protection of civil and constitutional rights of Indians,


the develpoment of efficient law and order programs with $Indian tribes requires


that the;9reau work not only with the Indian tribe but with the county, state, and


the federal law enforcement agencies, and with the judicial agencies AO that have


the AP jurisdiction in a particular situation. Ande it is necessary thataP all


of these activities be directed at the problem of enforcing law on $ Indian


reservations, if we are going to protect the lives and the property of the


Indian people. Employment assistance is a relatively new program, and it has two




SEM 166A-M
50



principal aims. One is tol relocate a people for direct employment eand


occupational training to .... place in which this employment


and training is available. It is a voluntary thing as far as the Indians


concerned. The services are provided but the Indian has to voluntarily


subscribe to these things in order for the A to be able to help them.


Andq our staff has to provide counseling both on and off the reservation,


and at major employment centers throughout the country. And we help with the


cost of transition, moving the family from the reservation,say to a place


of A employment WJ help them get housing, we help them get their furniture,


we help them make the adjustment the physical adjustments, and besides placing


them in a job. And we provide assistance for the family so that they get their


kids started in school and do, all these things without stumbling along


S EI1.-.a.ta~- -a blind alley and trying to cope with these problems without


knowing how. In addition to PJ- taking Indians to actual place of employment


we're also able now to provide vocational training in three way One, using


regular established schools, and the second is on the job training, and the


third is apprenticeship training. And gwe Ocounsel with our young people, and


try to help them find the kind of employment best suited for their wP talents

in a
andf best suited for their # abilities. And we try to do thisVscientific manner.





SEM 166A-M
51



This last jS authorization from congress and &S funds enable us now to


help people F help workers who are/you know employed to acquire new skills


and training. And so they'll no longer be a a part ofo a bloated or a


heavy labor market. We're trying to get themogtb out of the unskilled and


untrained class into the skilled and the,.egf class of O employment which


requires considerable training. And these programs have been very adaMP


popular with the Indian people. And they've liked the idea of uflw working and


having regular employment, ande some of them have done very well. Of course


now on the other hand we have a people who can't wean themselves from the


reservationAhey can't leave their family behind, they can't leave their friends


behind, they they just don't feel at home in a new community, and no matter


what you do for them they're gonna still go home. And they give it a try


but a lot of peopled can't except employment in this way. They'd rather go


home and tough it out on the reservation than d to a job someplace among


strangers. And gI guess they ifub have a difficult making that pattern of


adjustment. Our economic development division has just a monumental task. It


faces the challenge of getting more jobs on the reservation, it faces the challenge


of raising income and living standards on the reservation, ande it faces the


challenge of taking advantage of every possible economic opportunity and to do it in





SEM 166A-M
52



a feasible manner. Andg of course 4V it is characteristic of ~aevetioed,


communities that a they don't have any capital to work with. They're without


capital, they live a ahand to mouth existence and a there's really no way for


them to develop capital. So 4gVit's necessary for capital to be brought into


the situation. And this can be done both by direct loans from the federal


government or by grants from the federal government, or by the use of tribal


funds gg4O in all of these programs. Soo these things require Oagain a


participatory p action on the part of the United States s government and the


Indian tribes. Because obviously when you've got 330 Indian tribes you just


can't provide programs for all the programs that each of them need without


running into staggering amounts of money. And the bureau has enough


trouble with the congress now justifying the large amounts that we ask for


because of the size of the of the problem. And &SM that's why the statistics


that I mentioned earlier are very important to understand that Vr instance
A

let me give you an example that comes to mind immediately. Early in the '40s


and the '50s when they were getting started with the cattle business up north


tag;gSa therBureau of Indian Affairs got 00,000 dMagb for the whole


Bureau of Indian Affairs. Well that meant thatogVyou could divide that money


up among& forty or fifty esay fifty tribes. That meant that fifty tribes could get
'I)




SEM 166A-M
53



10,000 dollars apeice. Well & that meant the 10,000 dollars the is really


not enough to develop one real goodoggprogram. For instance, one cattle


operation is gonna take more capital than 10,000 dollars to get it started


just for one family. So 4the amount of money that is needed to support these


programs >is when your thinking in terms of the number of Indians that are


eligible and can participate in it is just astonishing, it's astronomical.


So a for this reason the bureau has been put into a difficult spot many times


because Indians say well you never helped me. You get all of these these
)

millions and millions of dollars but I don't get no help from ya. Well o


again you have to some judgement has to be exercised because .you can't if you


if you divide it up and give each one an equal share then nobody has any


operating capital, the money will be dissipated. Or if you give people enough


money to fully support their financial needs then you can onlydgowg help one


tribe at a time--it'd take you 330 years to help all tribes. So ,..iSS


this is a dilemma. And so that the problem is one of the major problems is


capital. Now obviously is you've got to find ways to introduce private capital


into the situation and that has and that has to be on a on the basis of a many


times on the basis of a participation a joint effort joint venture between the


tribes and a and private industry. The bureau has established an industrial





SEM 166A-M
54



development program. And the purpose of this program is to f induced a


private industry to move their plants and facilities to Indian reservations.


We try to provide a benefits in every anyway we can in order to entice them


P to move and once they get moved to the reservation and set up their


plants then this provides an opportunity for the local people to find employment.


And we can work with these people e we have oruthamjob training money ,


dt W can use, we have a all sorts of ways in which we can help iron out the


difficulties of getting a factory moved to a reservation. Butt the


end result of course is pretty good for the Indians because you have another


source of employment at home which was never there before. In recent years


thelureau has given increased attention to triballyAsponoeive financial

is
business enterprises that will create jobs. ThisAaccomplished through our


credit program, but also with the use of tribal funds. Now the problem with


using tribal funds 0is ~a problem of philosophy on the part of of both the


tribe and the Indians. The Indians feel that a tribal money should be divided


up among its membership on a per capita basis each getting loan individual


share. Now we I say we including myself very often believe that tribal funds


can best be used by a developing tribal enterprises of various kinds which


produce work and which produce opportunities for members of the tribe to earn a





SEM 166A-M
55



living. Because P this is a og long-term benefit and that it doesn't


dissipate a resource. It 6 uses a resource, and recycles it and uses

/I
it again. But of course you run into the problem >the Indians say well


aNpiNArAIn ~we don't want you telling us what to do with our money.


That's our money want to use it the way we want to. So they spend their


money and when they get through spending their money they get their money

0
on a per capital basis everybody gets his share and spends it, and then when


their money is gone then they come to me and sa well if they come to you


the Kreau or whom ever and say ok now you can help us. We haven't got any


money any more and now we want to use some of your money to get some of our


programs started. And# you say, well you should have been able to help


yourselves, you had all this money. And they say, well that money wasn't for

I)
that purpose that was for us. So SS when I say we have a Oconflicting 4Mg


philosophy here it's more then a conflict in philosophy. It's @ a deeper


conflict where the Indians feel that the best way is to share and share alike.


And this goes exactly counter to any proposals for the development of industry


which *would be a probably beneficial only to those who could participate,


the able body who did a little bit of work. Certainly members of the tribe who


have a share in that wouldn't be able to participate like young kids below employment




SEM 166A-M
56



levels, and older people who are no longer employable. Through the years the


angress has increased the credit funds. It started out at something like
to, C,000)0 v 0 *2-c000100c)
i1 i~^~ ,---, and it's now at -- ...... ... .. But this


is inadequate in terms of the total Indian needs. And i&t of course the


Congress says, well now you all of these people all of these tribes were


getting all of these monies and judgements and one thing or another. Why aren't


they using some of their own money? And we say, well you authorized the per


capital payment of that money, and per capital payments have used that money up,


there's none left over for economic development. Of course money's not the


sole problem. We've long needed a long and penetrating look at the gIndian's


economic development potential. These potentials must be examined with


considerable skill, because if the resources of a tribe is marginal it's


questionable whether they can participate in any kind of an economic development


program that's dependent on natural resources. d'A 4/nd they may be in an


isolated situation, they may be in a desert part a small part of the desert


far away from civilization. Maybe there's very little that can be done for them


p in the field of economic development. We've got to look at these problems.


TbiggL fg a hat'sJW S a situation that has to be examined. Then there are


other areas where a it's very feasible to develop gg~ certain types of programs.




SEM 166A-M
57



For instance, on the west coast it's fisheries, some areas it's timber


up in Washington and Oregon it's timber ~i f i it's in IdahoA n


the mountain there are lots of grazing land, cattle Montana, Wyoming, North


Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska all cattle country. So that there is a variety


of different kinds of operations that can be a developed, don't necessarily


have to be limited to these that I mentioned. But this just goes to show you


that there are a great many ways that Inew ideas can be introduced to


take advantage of such things as tourism, and recreation, light industry, and


0 that sort of thing. There are areas in Wisconsin where the tribe has very


little to offer in terms of natural resources, but they have they live in a


beautiful area where there are lakes and stuff like that where they develop


g resorts and recreation and fishing 'P things of that kind. So that 49P


all of these things should be examined, all of these things should be studied.


And and not by some experttinsulated and a part from the Indians but by


people who are expert and who will talk with the Indians and discuss these


things with the Indians so the Indians know and understand what these problems


are. So they won't be dreaming about something that's never gonna happen.


In the past few years a there's been a very important breakthrough in the


field of Indian housing. The eBureau of Indian Affairs has had a branch of




SEM 166A-M
58



housing for the first time, and begin to get a little money. And some of


the programs tin~ paH that have been established for other communities are


now being 0 established on Indian reservations such as low rent housing,


and qf housing where you help yourself. A1ib they give you money and f


they give you materials and tS assistance anEhey give you direction and


AggIyou build the homes yourself. And then there of course there's the


vPI housing where @grit's a gift youggpu wind up with a with a new house,


and you d6n't make any contributions at all. So all these kinds of programs


are needed because a some people just can't help themselves. These old


people they're just too old to work and they they don't have any income.


So if you don't have some programs whereby they can just move in why ~e iR


you're gonna leave them out. Soo all of these kinds of things have been


developed and are now on the scene as far as Indians are concerned...


END OF TAPE B SIDE 2




SEM 166A-M
59



TAPE C SIDE 1



I had this disagreement with John 0. Crow and he resented it pretty much


and I got on his list. So and it wasn't too long before people in the


bureau aiknew that that aI was opposed to John. And d~so I was just


kind of put in Philleo Nash's camp whether I wanted to be or not which was


alright with me I didn't object too much to that. i%40)s o but I found that


~there weren't too many people that were $ supporting the commissioner. So


then ;g I knew that that j Philleo f had his a a political contacts, and 0


that he was gfan able politician, 4 had g~long history of political offices,


and* was p man who g had a lots of experience. So I knew he was gonna


make himself felt. So&I didn't worry too much about it, there was no


sense in it anyway. And d then I kind V polled the area directors 0 and


myself. And I found out that p Leslie Cole who was the area director at

she
Anadarko A supported John 0. Crow. Fred Haverland, who was area director


at as&Sthe Navaho agency or thep & area office, he was a strongly


for John 0. crow. And Virgil Harrington, who was area director at Muskogee,


he was for John 0. Crow. And Bob Holtz, who was area director at Portland, he

**
was for Mr. Holtz .| .M. ilB- wanted qJohn 0. Crow to get


in in the worst way. It turns out that & in their background John at one





SEM 166A-M
60



time was a chief clerks when #gBob Holtz was the superintendent and Bob


recommended him to his first superintendency so there was a strong paternal


relationship there. Bob Csort of looked at John 0. as his son and andtgi


John 0. Crowea admired and felt great affection for rBob Holtz. So gthatG

Q
I could understand that. Now on the other side of the ledger p there were

C) C
a number of area directors who were like me trying to stay neutral but 4who
A A

weren't particularly in favor of John 0. Crow. One was Jim Cannon at P' ,


and Bob Bennett at -%, JaS, and Wade Head at Arizona, andgEmMr. Leonard


Hill at 0,Sacramento. Now these fellows they weren't on Philleo's % they


weren't in his camp, but they weren't in John'S camp either. They were


trying to stay neutral but they'd kind a gotten themselves forced over like


I did over i#gHt on Philleo's side. Well then OMartin Holmes he did stay


neutral, he was at the area director at Aberdeen. He refused to pulled into


this thing one way or the other. And Jim Hawkins who &fwas area director at


Minnesot, formerly the area director up at i~wsrm"m and strictly a political


appointee with no a a BIA history of any size kind, he was a strictly neutral.


And a for some reason these two men didn't get a dragged in on either side. So


the thing lookedqggpylike it was sort of John 0. Crow had lopsided support as


-far as the bureau was concern most everybody was for him. Not too many people
A





SEM 166A-M
61


was for 0 Philleo Nash. But it became evident this thing became evident


that a there was a pretty big clique in the bureau. And that it wasn't

purely a Haskell clique that there were a lot of other peoples 07in this

clique lik t F0 a), a d a /- ? C-)and aWalte4 Of ,//


and Charles Ok wo and a Hildegard ZI "S r), and a a Do, and

Ernie Page. These fellows weren't Indians but they supported Dick Massey.

And and after John 0. came on the scene and # replaced Dick as the top dog


around there why & they all supported him through Dick. They were all loyal

to Dick. But aOthe only one who wasn't really loyal to Dick was Leonard

I(IC ift'0X and &he supported 4g John 0. because of their prior associations.


So g the split in the area in the Washington office t which I of course knew

about, and the split in the area office was a Epretty even split eventhough

nobody knew a Philleo Nash, as far as ,S .the head were concerned. But 9 as

far as 48 the d9total numbers were concerned there wasn't any more on Crow's

side then there was on Philleo's side. So a later o)hen VI often wondered

what had happened if John 0. Crow had been appointed superintendent. I guess I

would have gotten my field assingments a lot quicker. But anyway he wasn't a

Philleo Nash a was appointed commissioner. And aBS this put some of us in a'

little better position then we would have been if L John 0. Crow had been appointed




SEM 166A-M
62



superintendent. And of course Philleo Nash appreciated the support that we


gave him. Whenever he came to me and asked me for any assistance on anything


I gave him everything I could I helped him anyway I could. And I didn't hold


back. As a matter of fact he 0 talked to me about several very confidential


matters which p one was a complete reorganization of the bureau. He gave me


A an organizational chart that had been worked up by John 0. Crow and Dick


Massey, and asked me to review it. They had just they had just corraled all


of thep influential factor functions in the bureau and put it under their


direct supervision. And > the only thing that was left for the commissioner


to decide on wasilgft when he'd take his annual leave I guess. Now they SS


just about had him handcuffed. And so I pointed all of this out to him. And


he of course knew all of that, he had 00 opinions on it. I just laughed. I


told him, he asked me, he said, well what did you think of it? I said, well
el A

I can tell you who wrote it up He said, who wrote it up? I said, well Dick
A A A A

Massey and John 0. Crow wrote it up. Becaus- said, they wound up with all
A
the authority. You don't have any authority under this arrangement. He laughed
A
(L
and he says, yeah, he says, the secretary and I had a good laugh about this


one. We went over it together. He said, I was just interested in your views.


I don't know, I,may have given this information before. But I want to reiterate





SEM 166A-M
63



it just to to emphasize the size of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. There


was approximately 400 employees in the central office in 1965. And


There was ten area offices, and about seventyCg field officers,


superintendents, and others in the field who were responsible fore different


functions. Nowbthe area offices there was there seemed to be 1,500


people attached to the area offices. And there around 12,000 directly

O
associated with the(gg field services. So that in proportion the(PBureau
A

of Indian Affairst had most of its employees and money where it was doing


the most good, directly in relationship with 4~i the Indian people. The


very size of the Bureau of Indian Affairs creates a number of problems. I


discussed the fight over the commissioners job. Now this was a political


eact his was a political matter. And e it was a pretty ai~r am -Wit was

an actual grab for power and authority. And it was on a dog eat dog basis.


And the rivalry was ppretty strong. And rFthis goesto a certain degree


this goes on throughout the bureau. There are rivalries on for every job


of importance that occurs. If there's an assistant commissioner job vacancy


then there's rivalry for that and it becomes a political matter. And i there's


a commissioners jobgg> if there's a branch chiefs job it becomes rivalry
for that, and so on right on down the line to the area offices and the superintendents.
for that, and so on right on down the line to the area offices and the superintendents.
AX




SEM 166A-M
64



There's rivalry s a part of a big organization like that that has as much


authority and power as the Bureau of Indian Affairs has. So$ one of the


problems that the bureau has is finding ways and means to harness that P


0 conflict and rivalry that$ continues 1q fora~Pll of the desirable ga


situations in theuireau. And another problem that the greau has because


of its size is the fact that people tend to be impersonal (Lg hey tend to


consider other people as part of a huge machine, their little cog in a big


machine. AndcalP the individualism is i submerged in a situation like that.


For instance if you walk into an office and there are fifteen clerks all doing
A

the same thing it's hard for these people to have, identities that stand


out. You tend to group them all as as one group and you herd them together


and and you call them one thing ando that's it. Andgg of course the people

6-
resent that, everybody resents that. Nobody wants to categorized and d


impersonalized out of existence. And ~that's what happenst'if you're not


careful. So this is a big problem with a large organization, not just the


bureau but any large organization. And tbany organization that has as many


different activities as the4freau has, we have one central office, ten area


offices, and around seventy field offices all over in a widely dispersed area.


In order to get instructions out to these people, in order to keep things rolling





SEM 166A-M
65



you have to have channels. In other words, you can't have everybody going


his own individual way, because sooner or later you're gonna get everything


snarled up. So everything has to be fS channeled. People are gonna have


to have authority to do things. You're gonna have to take things to certain


people to get their views on it, and they either pass it up the line or


make a decision on it. Now this channeling becomes # a real problem when


it starts to slow things down. When people with authority Obegan to I.'"


fail to make decisions, in other words, something will come up that's pretty


sticky see. And ggWsthis man has got the responsibility to decide that. And


he sayscel I'm gonna make a decision on it, but I gotta have some additional


views on thi -So he sends it to somebody else, and he says, give me your

0 AA
view. And this guy gives him his views and he&t3 doesn't get at the


solution he wants so he sends it someplace else. And the next thing you
A

know you've got agg the channel all clogged up with qjfjrthese JiAW things


that are going crossways instead of up and down the channel like they're


supposed to go. And e-, channeling dgs very often '% sort of'Emakes a


person anonymous. In other words 4you may decide a case, and you work hard on


it, and you get it all done, you have your secretary type it up, and you


initial it, and you send it up to your boss, and he initials it, he sends it up




SEM 166A-M
66



to his boss. And the first thing you know it gets up to the man who's


gonna sign the letter, and he signs the letter. And and he's the guy


who gets all of the attention. Everybody else who participated in the


development of that case is anonymous, they don't nobody knows who they


are or what they did. It's the guy who signs the letter that gets the


publicity and gets the catches hell if it's a situation in


which he is going to be critized. Nbw another problem in the big organization


is the layering of authority. You have for instance in the Washington


office you have the the commissioner, the associate commissioner, the deputy


commissioner, the assistant commissioner, the special assistant commissioners, the


branch chiefs, the section chiefs, then you have the employees within this


group, and they are all layered,yyou have different classes, you have a clerk


& say grade three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and you have assistant


section chiefs.nine, ten, eleven, you have section chiefs twelve, and thirteen,


you have branch chiefs fourteen and fifteen, you have assistant commissioners,


and you have all of these grades, and QtMMIMAyou got all of these people in


various dMagM5grades and everybody knows what grade yr in. In other words


if y~DP*grade fifteen everybody in the bureau knows you're a grade fifteen.


And they know what that 4~f1' grade pays in terms of salary, they know how long




SEM 166A-M
67



you've been in that grade. SoOthe layering of people in the bureautp


is a thing thatreally hampers the administration, yet it's necessary.


You gotta have differentOg1 responsibilities, and different grade levies.


You can't have a newcomer coming in and,#ad trying to agg obtain the salary


of somebody that's been in the job for ten or fifteen years that knows his


business better and doesn't need any administrative direction or


supervision, and who can work pretty much on his own. And you get somebody


that comes in and needs a lot of direction, and supervision, and training
el

ou can't put them in the same grade because it isn't fair. Anddthe


quality of work isn't the same anyway. So there isn t ts all these things


are.needed. But you have to watch this stuff because it can slow up the


machine. And it does occasionally slow up the machine. Now another problem


that a big organization has is regulations. Now you've got regulations for


everything. The bureau has t'maybe 0 notebooks that probablyears if placed.


side by sid would teg'yqaGt completely cover a twelve foot shelf. And


there're regulations on everything. Every branch has its manual, every a a


section within the branch has its manual. And-ka" all of this all these


regulations and policy statements and everything are in gdgW the manuals.


And you gotta know where the regulations are. Nbw the regulations are





SEM 166A-M
68


O
safeguards really for employees. If you know the regulations and you
0

understand the regulations you can function. If you don't know the
A

regulation don't understand them ou better be careful because you could


get in trouble. So the regulations tend tot make some people rigid and


restricted while it gives other people.%%"% assurances that awPalt as


long as they know what the regulations are they #g(pOknow how they can function


and they do function. And & soqtg you get y!ggf t a two way reaction to


regulations. you get people who are scared of them and can't use them. And


you get the people who understand them andea9 can use them andSa the regulations


are no problem for them. So the of course you get people who don't like to


have regulations that aren't absolute in every detail. In other words if it


doesn't say exactly what you're gonna do they're unhappy with it. They don't


want left anything left to the imagination or to your judgment. They want


everything spelled out ad4 book, verse, and page so they can quote it. And
A A

they use that as a defense. Well this is bad. This is what the Indians hat
A $7

whenC you go into an office and a somebody starts quoting regulations it just


turns the Indians just get furious, he just get hostile, he gets mad, and he's


upset, he don't like any of this. Andt. this is what happens. Still another


problem in the Bureau of Indian Affairs is the compartmentalization. For instance





SEM 166A-M
69



Sin my branch I had a brancl)tribal operations. I had that divided up.


I hadD all Indian claims matters under one section, and all tribal government


matters under another section, and all tribal money matters under another


section, and I had all of theat'enrollment matters under still another


section. And each of these sections were( compartment of the tribal


operations. Now if you as an outsider came in and didn't know how we were


divide up, you wouldn'tyou might have a hard time getting to the people


who could help you because #you wouldn't know how we were compartmentalized.


And when you start multiply this by all the branches in the bureau and all


of the areas in the agency office j&;tS it gets to be quite a problem.


Because it's very easy in this sort of an arrangement where one part of


the organization doesn't know what the other part is doing even though it


should. And it's 4J important then for &the organization-to have a good


(,communications system whereby everybody is informed of what's going on


and nothing is held in secret. We have j'good examples of, situations


which develop and people really don't know what's going on. For instance,


let me give you an example, gSg the commissioner was very interested in getting


a the branch of housing established and getting some people transferred from


the federal housing administration to the bureau of Indian affairs. And this was





SEM 166A-M
70


G
a very worth while project. And Wt everybody was for it ut the field


didn't know anything about it. And a'dmmost of the branches and amimon.l


rts most of ther~aB people in theuareau ordidn't know anything about it.

Well efew of us did. And we advocated to Philleo Nash that he have(


staff meetings, regular staff meetings once a week get up and give a general


review and q.ilet every branch chief who ehad a $major project in af


operationojetell everybody else what was going on so that people who didn't


QggiS hadn't heard about itfp would know about it and could react to it.

And that was just one way of communications there's a lot of others. But
A

Jbyou got to be careful when you have this kind of a compartmentalization in

a big organization as wide flung as theureau is because people do not


intentionally but they do tend to be secretive. They they do their own thing,


and aI8othey don't make any effort for other people to know. gt They don't


hide it, but they still don't any effort for other people to know about it.


And so this becomes C(aJDSAt AVAAMMWan a detriment rather than'o#W-~ a but


and yet again the compartmentalization is necessary. For instance, if I


had to have& one tribal operations officer who could handle any constitutional


matter that came up, who could handle any a charter problem that came up,


who could handle any ^tribal fund matter that came up, who could handle any,





SEM 166A-M
71



enrollment matter that came up, who could handle any claim matter that


came up, I'd have to train him three times as long as we trained him when


we specialized. Andg~ in the time that we were able to train them in their


specialties if we put that much time to them they they would be highly


competent q' people. So compartmentalization is necessary (i^W'buek


againyou gotta watch it's dangerous ou gotta watch it because it'll get
4 4A Ao

you in trouble. Now another problem tin a big organization is the delegation


of authority. People have to have authority to function, and you ought to


have authority to carry aOPOM*your job. People tell you what you gonna do


but if they don't tel ou that you have authority to do to give you the necessary


w working tools to get the job ga r gonna be sitting around wondering


how to do it. So$pEthe delegation of authority is very important. Now a lot


of people ..now this is where you d._brun into a lot of conflicts I did.


Now when I was chief of the branch of tribal operations I delegated a lot of
6/)
authority out to the area offices let the area director make decisions. Because


I didn't feel that some of those things had a proper place in the bureau. But


there were people in other branches who didn't want me to do that. Not because


they were opposed to my delegating authority. They wouldn't care if I went out


to the area office with my authority that wouldn't have made any difference. What
/1





SEM 166A-M
72



they were concerned with is they didn't want this to be catching they


didn't want some of the things they were husbanding in Washington to be


taken from them and given to an area director even though it could be

-
handled as well 0 the area director. They did this because they were


concerned with their ownia.-b station, and they were concerned with their


own ilSg welfare and aj with the possibility of their own growth within


the organization. And so they husband authority. And they froze a lot


of people out, they didn't give-g people the authority that they needed


to function and they made people come to them. And a that is bad, because
A

a you can set up a very fine organization and then kill it by failing to


delegate the necessary authority to function. It's like buying a new car


and not putting any gas in. I mean it's iS just that simple. So f i ~ 'there


are a lot of people who have 9S, strong feelings about tf authority and

#r0
letting other people work. They want me people like to have complete


and solid control. They don't want anybody to even turn around unless they

4) y? QTC.
tell them which way to turn. SoandBparticularly when '~-mep VW in


competition for other #positions of gg authority within the organization


you want everybody to think highly of you, and you want everybody to think you're


efficient, you want everybody to think that you're doing a swell job. And the more




SEM 166A-M
73



often you get into the bosses office with a case personally the more often


he gets exposed to your ability. And the more you can keep your subordinates


from-~ag going in there and seeing him and showing their _c' abilities, the


better off you are. Because they're Ijejg not really any.competition


for you. So the delegation of authority is Wa pervasive matter and it's


throughout the bureau. It's not just that the commissioner doesn't want to


delegate authority, the section doesn't want to delegate authority, the


area directors don't want to delegate authority, the superintendents don't


want to delegate authority. So it's not just at one level that this only


transpires. A big organization tends to get ingrown too. I mean by that


that there are people in the organization who don't want change. Things


are going well, they don't want to disturb anything, and therefore they don't


want you changing the policy, they don't want you changing their programs, they


don't want any changes. Because they they can they feel that they can handle
A

what's going on. So this means that people with new ideas new concepts and


new approaches igggot competition. There are lots of people who don't want


those things totrtake root because they like things the way they are. And '


a lot of people become ingrown iot because they are so concerned about Indian


development and Indian a improvement they're W ~r ***a*Oia concerned
A.





SEM 166A-M
74



about their own situation. They want to hang on until they retire, or they're


or they got some other reason. Butt this is a problem in their {breau. It's one


that the administrators always have to be on the watch for. Because when you


see this begin to happen you better do something about it, because it's really


P 'ki-ft- l%-- i 0a S a big problem. Now ~f4paternalism is another problem


within the ireau. The bureau tends to want to do things for people particularly


Indians. They for instance, we lease Indian lands. We don't even show them


the lease until we're ready to have it signed. We've got the money and everything


there, and;a we say alright sign here. He doesn't know what he's leasing the


land for. And gfgwe don't even give him a copy of the lease just a keep


&h-is copy in his folder on the agency. And we put one copy in theease file

copy r
and we put oneVwith the official receipts. But ,gowe ten to at's just one


example but we tend to do too much. And we tend to put ourselves into a


situation which is not healthy, because it permits other people to escape their


responsibilities by transferring them to us. And h4many times ~g our people


hangg on to detail and igtog -"they're afraid of competition and so they *

It*
^.j.i geC Jtend to want to keep busy doing all of these things. And so they


and you 4g I 've been to a lot of agencies where4P some of the clerks have


very paternalistic attitudes towards some Indian families. And now this Indian





SEM 166A-M
75



family goes through that one clerk about everything. And (this tsill-no w


happens. And gt. I don't know whether it's good or bad. Sometimes it's


all right buto you got to watch it because you can't usurp people's


responsibility without it affecting them. And if people learn to accept


their own responsibility and function on their own then the advice you give


them^ isn't paternalistic, it's s something that's very helpful to

SCD
them. Then another thing I Onoticed within the bureau" +here's &you know


Supposing there's 4 take the situation between Philleo Nash and John 0. Crow.

Now when the decision was made to appoint Philleo Nash commissioner everybody


didn't say OK well that's that let's go back to work. They chose up sides
A A A

the battle continued. John 0. Crow got sti necked about som things. And
A

qggEshe made <10a01 it kind a miserable for Philleo on somehings that he


could. Where he had the authority he did things e!hough he knew that Philleo


didn't like it he did it anyway. And .he had seniority, he had the age, and he


had the years. He could retie he was independent. He didn't really didn't


care. And of course a lot of people didn't enjoy his security and so they had


to be a little bit more careful. Butoa. it got to a point where f I was at a


conference one time and Philleo saw me in -~oalmgmm the...

END OF TAPE C SIDE 1




SEM 166A-M
76



TAPE C SIDE 2




...thing about Bill who was chief of the branch of law and


order. Bill was a Haskell man. I knew him when I went to school there.


And he had a variety of experiencein therbureau. He had been a


superintendent at the New York agency, had been assigned to a number of


different agencies. And S Bill was a lawyer. He had his degree in law.


Theme the chief of the branch of c& :employment assistance was a a


Wal '__. He was an old line reau employee who had been in various


place's9t stationed in various in the Vbireau, and kindd of just worked


himself up to aoM a position of assistant@gggin the branch relocation.
k A
Anl was aAassistant for many years until finally the branch chief resigrO


retired and he took over the position. Now the chief of the branch of


welfare was Charliek Mr. __ came in with Selene Y f


and-a he was g"W employed under herghin her previous ft assignments. And t9'


igfhis speciality was welfare. He was very knowledgeable in this field e was


an exceptionally able man. He knew his business. Now tj|RB in the branch


@in the assistant commissioners staff for a resources a Mr.FI' I f
there was a George who was in charge in the branch of forestry. George
there was a George ___ who was in charge in the branch of forestry. George
A




SEM 166A-M
77



was ,A4-'old line f forester in the bureau, had been for many years, had


never held _^*aan administrative position. But had always been a forester


and twas recognized as one of the top men in the bureau in his field. He's

P t //
one of the few fellows who stayed in his field that I know of. Now Jim __ _


a waste! not a long time bureau employee. He had come into the bureau late


in life and was a political appointee. He came in with Dillon Myer, he was


one of Dillon Myer's men. And ,ia he U was .W .thegp a sort of a hanger-on
A

after *Mr. Myer left. He didn't have any particular talents that I knew of.


They i he was in charge of the branch of industrial development and he didn't
A
do too good a job with the industrial development branch. And ,r and finally


he was transferred out tof the area office at Sacramento asM an assistant to


to the area officer and he retired there. Now the next man is,;a __


And he was in charge of land operations. Now this man was a real power in-the


bureau of Indian affairs. And he got that authority he got that power because


he was a very close friend of the chairman of thel pj useAppropriations Qmmittee.


This/ppropriations committee chairman was g~^ after I was in a budget hearings
/t
and when his budget was being discussed and after they got through he'd say 4C'


fow 'did you get all the money you need, is there anything more that you


j





SEM 166A-M
78



need that I can get for you? And that's this is this is totally strange,
A

because they'll usually try to take what we've offered' away from us and


give us something much less than that. And here was getting offers


of more money. Well aanywav. of course our budget was controlled by the


a reau of the budget, and then they controlled the departmental budgets,


and the departments controlled each of the bureau budgets. So we only had


a certain amount that we could ask for. And if he got more money


it would have to come from somebody else in the bureau and he wasn't about


to do that. But he did have this influence which was a a quite important


and he used itmgS. For instanceSbcf now I know that I can't prove
this, but I know that 9--*A 11, ."
this, but I know that c k was that man in the bureau who kept


theA-ongress advised on what was going on. And I'm sure the the chairman of


appropriations committee knew more about the breau appeared in


q in these hearings. And every once in awhile that would come out because


some of the bureau some of friends would have a hard time over there in


the I mean some of his people who were twg3in the'if he was having problems


with would have a hard time with their budgets over there on the hill. So 4ia'


___ was aqtman who was quite important in so far as bureau activities


were concerned. For instance, many of his recommendations turned out to be




SEM 166A-M
79



superintendentyin the reau. Well the next person in the resources


is Dell Bruce, he was chief of the branch of realty. Dell has been in


the branch of realty almost the entire period that he was in the bureau.


For a very short time in the early '30s he was stationed at the Cheyenne


River agency out in Cheyenne River. And then 4:'^ about '36 or '37 he was


transferred into Washington in the ,p land acquisition section. And Iff'


came into that section back in 1938. As a matter of fact he and I had the


same offices together for a number of years. So I know Bruce pretty well


and he's 4~"'exceptionally bright guy. He's an attorney, he's$g you know


good thinker le's a well grounded in the field of tribal law with respect


to real estate, he knows more about tribal real estate laws than anybody else


in the ireau. And he was for a long time John 0. Crow's right hand man. John


worked with Dell when he came in from the field, and he t respected Dell and Dell's


knowledge of real estate. And A',Dell was not the political type and he was


inclined to be outspoken, and therefore on some occasions <(he was in trouble


with fpthe powertha e. And it was one of his outbursts that got him into
4 A

difficulty with qg4FD the commissioner. And it was this difficulty which resulted


in the commissioner going out to the field and& hiring John 0. Crow to come in


run the I"branch of realty. And so( I give this background information to so




SEM 166A-M
80


that you'll understand that there are relationships in the bureau--I'm


gonna go into that in more detail later on. Then the last man OB in


resources is Bob who was a chief of the branch of roads. Now Bob


was an engineer, a professional engineer. He was a professional in all


respects. And (%he was a gentleman. He didn't involve himself in the


political machinations that went on in theh reau. He ran his program to


the best of his ability. He was on top of everything that was going on in


his branch. He j nobody questioned his integrity or anything else. He was
A

a man who everybody respected. And r-they didn't involved him in the


political affairs of the tribe and therefore he kind of coasted right through


all of this A w .gAW. of 'fighting andfP.bickering that went on with out


being touched&so as to speak, because he did mind his own business and he didn't
A

get himself involved. Now the a next position is the was a very controversial,


the assistant commissioner for administration was Fred H. Massey. He is an


Indian from Oklahoma. Dick Massey is a man who was a for many years a protege'


of $ Bart Greenwood and Bart Greenwood probably was the best administrator that


the bureau ever had in terms of administration. And gpBart Greenwooat one time


was on thec iy reau of the adget team which *handled thee interior


apartments appropriations. And.' sobDick was well trained. Dick came up through





SEM 166A-M
81



the ranks. He didn't he was like me he didn't miss a thing. He started


in as assistant clerk, and he just worked "! straight up through the


clerical levels, up through the section chiefs, and up through *al~ak 5


to4ga to the branch chief and then finally into t.an assistant commissioners


job. And he's a man of thirty-some-odd years experience. And ifr.Dick gwas


so intimately knowledgeable with the affairs of the ireau that all of the


Indian people both in around the Washington office and all of the field


people in major jobs sort of gravitated to Dick. He was(, the head of the

(( ))
f4 what I guess (you could term the Haskell /afia. Among the Indians ag


Dick was the leader,~: in tP Washington, and to a large extent in the -t-trte


field. Now this mafia deall just wasn't limited solely to Indians. But it


was the one important clique that Indians could belong to in the central office.


Now there were other cliques. There were #some of the A ' ,


people that associated g0 together official~ Odd tA entertained eachother


privately andfgehad all kinds of associations which a-AftMd'ta people of lesser


)rank just were not admitted to those f functions. Andgtiso soai Dick was


. controversia rto say the least. Allan was the engineer advisor.
,'t
He's the man who handled all the construction contracts for the whole-bareau


of Indian affairs and a he was a lawyer, he was an engineer, he was also an Indian
.101





SEM 166A-M
82



hm -a _e was ae from Pine Ridge reservation. And he#O been


in theTbureau 0 at that time about forty years. So he knew the bureau


from one end to the other. Then( the chief of the branch of budget and


finance was Leonard Norwood now. Norwood was an old line chief clerk. He'd


been a chief clerk for the Bureau of Indian Affairs at various agencies


and he'd been at several of their area offices in the field of administration,


and finally came into Washington and becames Dick Massey's right hand man


so as to speak. However, and he was a part of this d Haskell mafia that I


I mentioned. But Dick tb~eka Norwood &didn't stay married to Dick


Massey too long. As soon as John 0. Crow ascended to a top position Norwood,


who had been stationed in the same area with John 0. Crow down in the


southwest and knew him personally, transferred his affections to John 0. Crow,


and dididn't bother to tell Dick about it. And sogrJohn 0. was getting


-a lot of information that normally would have gone to Dick Massey. So there


was a little feuding within the ranks. The management analyst was a new man. His


his a that was his name was Charlie He 'av ks function was new in


theureau, and he was new to the Fbureau and never did quite understand the


bureau and finally retired. The branch of personnel was F under Ear.


Earl ____ had been in personnel all his life. And he came to the bureauu




SEM 166A-M
83



some twenty-five years ago and stayed with the bureau all during tbat=SS T4


.4 ~ this a final years in the government. Page was a chief of the


branch of plant management. He was an engineer andc- he was a very good


friend close friend of Dick Massey's, and they worked very closely together.
A

Don __" was chief of the branch of property and supply. Now Don 't


was probably & the .4.-a"one opportunist in that group. When I first met


Don he was a clerk over .in the education branch. And he transferred around.


Now Don was a pretty sharp guy, andt he kept moving around in the Vbureau
A

trying to find himself a niche. And he finally did get withttDick Massey,


and Dick took him under his wing anda':so Don 'b* started to learn thejsB


property and supply activities. And later Dick promoted him to chief of


the branch. So you see the assistant commissioners had quite a lot of


authority. They could take a clerk and a~ in a matter of a few short years


raise up to a branch chief, right by people who are much better qualified and


a had longer tenure and everything else. They they had a lot of prerogatives.


Now the last chief of of of the branch was a Ralph ( __ He was the


chief of branch of plant design. Now Ralph got his operation the hell out


Washington. He found $Ia place g-h close to Denver wheree they hada;4 some


space and( the bureau was really ayou know growing and4 outgrowing the space
r r- ^ ^





SEM 166A-M
84



that was assigned to it by the Secretary's office. AndM so he proposed


to the commissioner that ,his unit be transferred out to #,'Littleton,


Colorado, close to Denver, 'ail to a government installation there. And


J^fSCE he could then commute when it was necessary. And people could come


see him and he still could preform the services that were required of him.


So -6B Me wmM this is what di he moved his place out there. And so


he wasn't around the Washington offices very much. He was when I first


came in, but then he moved his whole outfit out and a we didn't see too much


of him around the central office. Well now that gives you the general idea


of 4' the e%.line officers and the branch chiefs in the Washington office level.


And of course there's some 300 other employees in support of all of these


operations. So*nggfaS S I just mentioned the top people because that's about


all we're gonna be able to deal with in this report. Now I've prepared a


an organizational chart which lays this all out. In addition to, the


Washington office the next level of authority is the area office. Now this
4
office is a organized ono a little different basis. Each area has a territory.


For instance the Minnesota are office has the state of Minnesota, Wisconsin, and


Michigan, and Iowa a* itA area of responsibility. The Aberdeen area office


- has the state of North Dakota, South Dakota, and tNebraska. The Billings office




SEM 166A-M
85



has Montana and Wyoming. The Portland area office has a a Washington,


Oregon, Idaho, and Idaho. The Sacramento are office has all of California.


The Phoenix area office has a New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and Utah, and


part of Colorado. And the area office, oh I guess it's the


Pueblo area office, anyway the area office had the Pueblos and the


Navajo reservations, the Pueblos of New Mexico and the Navajos of New Mexico


and Arizona. And the Oklahoma area then was divided between Muskogee on the


east side and Anadarko on the west side. And of course the quno area ptCT"


ini' Alaska had all of Alaska. Now each of the ten area offices had two or more

-c k th Portland ra offi e
assistants. I'm also including a the Portland area office


which a dated 1963 under bureau organizations which will depictgg>the divisions


with in the area office. For instance, F a" the area office usually had


a several functions reporting to it directly. One was industrial development,


another was tribal operation, and t.these reported directly to the area office


as a general rule. Administration carried out the same functions at the at the


area level as they did at the Washington office level. The same thing is true


of division' of community services, and the division of economic development.


NowJa at the Portland area there was three assistant areas one in charge of each
of the divisional functi administration, committee services, and resources.
of the divisionall functions 'administration, committee services, and resources.
A




SEM 166A-M
86


Then r;, each of the 0-1 various divisions was supported by f"* branch

chiefs. Now for instance, if the i-7frh area had no forest there'd be/ 0

forestryA if they had no irrigation there'd be no irrigation in there, or

if they had no welfare programs there'd be no welfare programs, if they

G 0
had no educational programs if everybody was going to public school they'd

have no branch of education,and so on. But af'gagHapso the area was confined


largely to MatVESits actual functions a.within the territory assigned to it.

In addition to the Portland area I'm a enclosing an areate directors directory

area directory\ for the (eav.Aberdeen area office. And g(this is a quite


interesting one because it shows the(congressional subcommittees, the
A

4ouse~ommitteeC Indiana affairs and the enate6ommittee on IndianAffairs,

and the regional senators and representatives that affect the Indian operations

within these areas. And it gives the breakdown of the entire bureau operations

in the Washingtonton office. & It gives the 4.lbreakdown pretty much as what

I've indicated. It also tells you who all of the area directors are in each

all
of the area offices, and who the employment assistant officers at each of the
1'4
#- relocation office centers ined$various major cities throughout the United

States. And then it gives a complete breakdown of the superintendents within

the area, the agencies that they have, and e so on. And it ')V gives you f a




SEM 166A-M
87


real good picture of the way a a an area functions. I'll put that in the


bureau organizational folder. At the time of the election of John Kennedy

a'as resident of the United States Glenn Emmons was then the commissioner.
AA
And he was a republican, had been appointed by Eisenhower nd therefore his


resignation was accepted. And #President Kennedy called John 0. Crow over

to the White House and asked him to act as acting commissioner while a new

commissioner was appointed. And. they were about equal size John wasgbig


tall husky ando so was the president. And they hit it off pretty well
A A

together. Well everybody in the Areau immediately decided at that point

that John 0. Crow was going to be the next commissioner of IndianAffairs, and


it did look that way. And thena.Stewart Udall decided tog,-have a,(r

task force investigate the Bureau of Indian Affairs, not investigate ut look

at the Bureau of Indian Affairs to give i him ethe task forc- recommendation.

Well a that task force was manned by a a Bill ,'" executive vice president

of Philips 66, and we used the Philips 66 plan hilleo Nash, and the ex-ieutenant

vernor of the state of Wisconsin, John 0. Cro.he ctingommissioner of


Indian affairs, Bill Zimmerman thee ex-:ssistant mmissioner of Indian affairs,

and Jim Officer a anthropologist at the University of Arizona at Tuscon, and then

Marty __ and I accompanied the task force &hase sort of resource people





SEM 166A-M
88



available to them to help with anything that come up k(X where they'd


find our services useful. Well it became apparent that as soon as the


task force was organized, and we started to swing out into the Indian


territory that Philleo Nash was campainging for the commissioner's jo
A

!And *.that he was going to put a bid in for that job and he was gonna give


John 0. Crow a run for his money. Well it wasn't too long before other


people in the bureau began to realize this. Anda gradually the(ureau


begins to take sides. And a it was rfquiteg"s amusing to me because ~I


was #eef of independent. I came into the Washington office ?the people who


wereA the leaders in th6~Haskell maria group Vextended me ie an open invitation-
A

to join with them and so on. But -a I didn't much like that idea because a


I had^ enough bosses without having somebody start telling me what I


should do and what I should think,and so on. And that's what they were doing.


These fellows were actually a laying out the policy that they wanted their


supporters to a follow. SoFSI didn't join it, I didn't ande'they,. the way


they asked ya to join wasjpA they'd invite you social functions that would

C4 /
be given say by Dick Massey, or ,40 some member of the organization who was
A

close to him. And they'd, give a private party and you'd be invited to come.


And if you went then of course later on you'd have to reciprocate and have
A 4





SEM 166A-M
89



a party for all of them, and the first thing you know you'd be involved


in the their operations. And they just let the .. r fftg door


open and you walk in. And a that's the way it works. Butas'aI didn'tA

down
' I turned all of their a,-invitations :-top-parties and so on. I never


went to any of them. I stayed out of it, and I stayed away from them too.


And f course they resented that. They didn't like that too well and
71t A

they kind a got on me gp a few times. But a a was used to having people


resent what I was doing anyway. And a a it wasn't anything too new as far


as I was concerned. So I didn't really worry too much about their attitude


towards me. But it was interesting for me to note that almost the entire


group that supported the Haskell mafia would went directly a too a with


Dick Massey to John 0. Crow's camp. In addition to Dick Massey's organization


all of Selene ( Vl' organization went directly to Jfn)O. Crow,


even though I think she personally liked Philleo Nash better because he was


more on her level. He was an intellectual type of a guy and she probably


had more in common with him than she did John 0. Crow who was kind of a


rough neckg-M So anyway everybody began to support a
A
support John 0. And I was kind of just mentally observing all of this and


seeing what was going on and I found that as far as Philleo was concerned that




SEM 166A-M
90



the only support he had was from~ $the associate commissioner and AE14S-


Mr. C And ( that 4omost of group, George ''. -


stayed neutral and Bob __ stayed neutral, but Jim Lr... and

-") v < Lt'and Dell Bruce all went with John 0. Crow. And i


of course the whole service group Hildegard Thompson, Bill

'.: Walt Modell, and Charlie *1 CDhey all flocked over to


John 0. Crow. So everybody thought John was going to be commissioner and

0
everybody was getting on his on his bandwagon so as to speak. And not too


many people were really interested in &T the lg opposition of Philleo Nash.


They had not didn't thihk he had too much of a chance. .So* I tried to


stay neutral but you know you couldn't almost in&e that situation. And a
A

so whencQ I 1 26f was forced to make a decision one day o while I was


with the task force, so I did. I told John 0. that I didn't like what he


was doing, didn't like what he was saying and I told him so. So I dgot on


his list immediately. And everybody else...


END OF TAPE C SIDE 2
rtl""""C S"--'.-- f D.. -"










SEM 166D-Side 1

Page 91 McKenzie

So
differences, andleft /j.h, the d& racial perogatives hav4merged

that 4 we have WiQpby very little biological racial differences q* and

^iaI g g of course we still have prejudice about some things, but in the

main, for instance we don't distinguished between the French and the

Italians and the English and Danes and the Swedes and the Germans and the

Russians and all the little blood lines are now part of the American scene.

We don't really 4 distinguish between those. ~pgriWg [ It's true

however, that those who wish to withhold certain rights and opportunities

from some groups have sought to justify their attitude by fE alleging bio-

logical infer...inferiority of those groups andfgaldkP- this is used as a

means to keep them in a state of submission. People are different because

of food, climate, upbringing, education, incom4!in short, the physical en-

vironment of their surroundings are important. cpN second, we come from

different parents, families, stock, and race of men. And our heredities

differ. These are two forces which *% need to be considered in vagBM,
that
examining the culture of Indian people. Some believe the difference between
men and races are inborn and unalterable and ~Qa this is an old and wide-

spread view that has been held. What I'm really trying to get at is that 4,

0; cultures ( have organization as well as content. And that if you have
a list of the 4 FSbK behavioral and regulatory patterns with out the ~ph

relationship that i., one to the other, you would nt have much. The culture

to m'have identical inventories and still be extremely different. Uh, it's
A
true, the whole is different than the sum of its parts. In most traditional

Indian culture, it is @ believed ( that the established order 4e

is opposed0ochanged, is impervious to new ideas, and < involves ( F









Sem 166D-Side 1
Franckle
Page 92


the radical alteration of the way the Indians have lived. Certainly there

are going to be changes. Indians know that, and I think can accept it. I

don't think this is a problem. People say it is, but I don't think that it

really is. As I indicated earlier, the social life of the tribe is continued

by a system of conventional understandings transmitted from one generation

to the next generation. And the knowledge of that culture make it poss...

would make it possible to predict a good many aZqgsden~ that that tribe would

d'-- take or the individuals of that tribe would take. And the administrators and

..' a lawmakers should know that one cannot isolate a custom and abolish it or

modify ite Customs ariseof 4 man's nature. It's forms are restricted both

by men's biological and natural laws. Any custom must be functional or it's

going to disappear. No participant an any culture know or underhand all

of the parts that exist. That's a part of the culture qwS Must may be
A /I
learned by everybody. Part may be learned by a selected few and' part

apply only to those who perform roleswich the patterns are designated.

In our society, the school is used for traditionally, to develop technology.
A
The home and a church for regulatory training. And there's considerable

overlap. But in, in Indian groups, their cultural requirements may be

totally different and uh, this may be handled in a completely different way.

For instance, my grandmother, in our family, wasq p the person who gave

us most of the history of our group. She told us about the various leaders

and some of the things that happened in the past and she regaled us with

stories at night and( shej us the fairytales and she told us the actual

battles and she told us some of the wonderful things that were done by members

of the tribe and so on. And uh, all of this was a ( S, part of her role

in the tribe. She was, it was up to her to eduaate us, the grandchildren,


I





SEM 166D-Side 1
Franckle
Page 93


and to get us our educated,, our education started. By giving us the history

and the background and "0 teaching us how we should behave. There

was no formal school, there was no formal church. She gave us everything,

and everything we learned about the Indians and about our own group came

from her. And 4 W, unlike the white culture l, there's no overlapping

and no one interfered with her W, y with herg teaching methods or

with the subjects she was teaching. Whenever an outside force takes it upon

itself to destroy forcibly some part of the social organization of an Indian

tribe, that act of destruction creates g long lasting hostility and A it

is absolutely the worse thing that could be done. 4, no one tried to inter-
w-
fer with my grandmother's method of training us. I stayed with my grandmother up

until the time of, until I was ready to go to school. And when my mother

come to got, get me, I couldn't speak English. (laugh) My grandiHma.iA spoke
A
Sioux, she didn't speak English. So I she taught me how to talk Sioux. so

my grandma--my mother come to get me and take me home and I couldn't talk

English. She had to talk Indian to me to make me understand. And I got off

to a full start because W I had a language problem right off the bat --I

couldn't talk English. Even though both my parents were bilingual.

SO even though my mother disagreed with what my grandmother aas doing-

even though she didn't approve it-even though I was her child she didn't
A
interfere. She allowed my grandmother to go ahead and teach me and train m
A
And allowed me to stay with her until it was time for me to go to school.

Had she interfered and had she prevented Grandmother from me-grandma from

doing what she thought he had to do there would've been trouble in the

family.

Imagine how much....Just-I just wanted to point this out that it's very

important-vitally important-uh for the Indians to want to make the change.








SSEM 166D-Side 1

Page 94 McKenzie


It's vitally important for the Indians to take the fitst step in making

the change-even though sometimes we think they're going in the wrong

direction! Let them go someway and let them get started Lz b 'c-y c

____C 4-e 2 C. 9 C&vL. and change their direction
Believe me, when I say, that India people know there are variant

arrangements of human life. They've seen their cultural traits dis-

appear, change, go down the drain. They've seen their religion--their

whole economic system, their marriage customs, the property ownership

and $IPF'all of their tribal &behavior patterns change and 41)iiW they

know that 4 these changes 1 were forced on them. And hence, many of the

tribes are hostile. Even to this day, the-they're hostile to the Bureau.
and
They're hostile to white people they're even hostile to other tribes.

We live in a system of ranked group) e ch group
and Ad -
consists of people who participate in intimate social *.-and economic

ways with each other. And CP they don't At associate too freely with

people above or below we know that .* The Indians don't understand

that.because theyif' [chuckle] there's no upper class Indians or lower
4
class Indians. They're just Indians. Let me give you an example-- when I

was 4 X rr fcriicl /c(

one of the things that we did annually was go out to Yellowstone National

Park and get buffalo meat and 6 elk meat and things of that kind and--

in the fall-anda when they had a big slaughter I'd call up down there

and tell them that we would send trucks when they were ready to slaughter

ancdb4, h to let us donate trucks So they'd call me up and they'd tell

meIell, we're going to slaughter many animals, you can have this many

if you want them, send five trucks. So we'd send P& trucks up there and
A










SEM 166D-Side 1

Page 95 McKenzie



they'd kill buffalo and elk in Yellowstone Park and they'd kill all kinds

of animals and slaughter them and dress them up, send the hides and--and

the meat back and we'd truck that all back to the reservation. Then I
now
would get the councilmen together and I'd say, all right, you take

your .stuff up to your division--up to your 10 community and you 4* super-
of
vise the dispositionithat and you take this up there to yours and you

take this e>__ so on l so I'd let the council

men part--parcel out the-the meat. Well, here comes this little old lady'

0 he's on welfare and she got nothing! She's toothless,

she can't work, she's crippled up and she just barely gets around--she

just barely gets enough money to live from one month to the next. She

comes with her little ol' sack and she wants her meat. She gets it. Here

comes this Indian--drives up in a new car, he's got about 400 head of

cattle, he's got 15-20,000 dollars in the bank. He walks up there and he

gets his meat. Indians don't question his right to come up and get that

meat. They don't live by a system of ranked groups--he's an Indiant He's

entitled, let him have it. And the little old lady doesn't feel that

he's taking something that she should have. So 0> when you study people

and cultures you got to keep in mind that man is apolitical animal. And
you
hk can't understand him without taking into consider--consideration both

his political life, his social life and his environment. Without these

things to guide you, you're gonna make some wrong decisions and/4fso

that I say this simply to point out that there are serious differences
serious
and sometimes thoseAdifferences go unnoticed.

I have often heard Indians say in the old days there was no fights

about hunting grounds or fishing territory, There wao laws the
o lws then so









SEM 166D-Side 1

Page 96 McKenzie


everybody did what was right! It's obvious that L. ...they did not con-

sider themselves as being subject to the social controls imposed on

them by somebody else. Even in the American society law is never more

than a crude implement of society. It's never the equivalent of social

order....

And it is frequently necessary to check it because people who administer

laws are inclined to be arrogant on occasions they're inclined to be



Missionaries are often puzzled because Indians do not regardockmorals

and sex & synonymously. Sometimes the Indians feel that morals dizEh
with /)
are about as concerned as sex as WNPF they are with eati No more

and no less. Morality of course starts from a completely different assump-

tion so far as the uh missionary is concerned.
^ And a good many of the more traditional tribes--like the Seminoles of
'IC ........ Florida, (Apaches h
Florida, Apaches he lR the Navajos, the Pueblos,

and the Hopis, and some of the Of f k )....You can't

understand those people too well unless you understand the iWsocial in-

stitutions of which they are a part.

With those traditional groups, it's pretty hard to (S understand the

behavior of an individual without knowing &>the system of sentiments

possessed by the group which he is a member.

It is obvious that the sum of all the individuals in the Zuni

tribe make up a culture beyond and above those individual when considered

separate and apart. The group is fed by tradition and it is justifiably

1.9a-calledd a tribe....

On the other end of the spectrum, there are the /l Al na c









SEM 166D-Side 1

Page 97 McKenzie



Wisonsin m uh hereditary point of view they look like MI-4V'e f

They are dark skinned, they look like Indian heir features are In-

dian, their behavior is Indian and &VI attended a general council meet-

ing one time and I saw a groupAlooked like full bloods I went over

there. to see if I could understand any of their language--they were

soeaking English. So I went over to another group and listened to their

group and they were speaking English. No where in that whole tribe was

anybody speaking M A <'. Then I found that foro'%HBB

for a long time that t~(not many people could speak M:_c Otit. '.

There. were a few left that--that JAiP'spoke the language-the older

people. But none of the young people spoke the language too well. While

they looked like full bloods they weren't^-they were ethnically white.

- Wy weerent--they were ethnically more white than they were Indian. They

.were talking about such things as the d rlderies. They were talking

_abbut- such things as the possibility of the 4b Green Bay Packers winning'

another title and L they had all kinds of things under discussion. Very

4ew of, them were talking about the matters that were before the Tribal

Council. The. general council. 4 Lhey were going to listen to what people

hAd to say about it, the matter would be put to ote, they would then de-

cide at that time what they-what their position was and they would vote

accordingly. And Ih tiuh found that these people are devout Catholics--

they go to church. The Catholic Church runs the uh schools, the Catholic
a
church runs their hospital. And uh tLA part of uh the biggest part of

their social -uh social behavior. So while the Zunis on the one hand can truly

be called a tribe the MfC \ ::"/' r on the other han it's pretty hard
toe to /A
foRcall them an Indian tribe. For that reason.









SEM 166D-Side 1

Page 98 McKenzie
iTh
Most of the Indians in Alaska would have to be considered traditional


gigigIe fii .4 A ''. 0'SCCO S these are pretty traditional

groups. Pretty much oriented towards their own culture. But in the lower

'48 there are a great many tribes that are in the category of the / (*'~ "''.

Tribe to varying degrees. There are much fewer tribes that are in the categ-

oriaes of the Zunis and there are & gradient all in between these two ex-

tremes of the spectrum in which all of the other tribes fit. So dS

this adds to g the complexities of the administrative problems that face

Indian leaders and Bureau C" c' 'k

1iSf these differences among the Indian tribes in mind I would like to

r this tape and discuss proBlems which are somewhat general and
puh pervasive uh throughout the Indian country. Now, as Americans we're highly

practical people. We assume. 4 without muchT reflection and analysis that
the (11h
.Vrultimate criteria of any act peis in its -utility "conceived in material
terms. The Indains don't-don't look at it that way. They just don't see

that point of Jyiew-they have other things in mind when they. ( consider-

-ig 10t a (b!h situation.

... .. _what their culture teaches them to

bhe Indians cannot learn American foresight and modernization unless they

can participate socially with the American people whom they learn to imit-

ate.

Another problem is that # the social danger of leaving a reservation

originates in a threat of disapproval, ridicule, or rejection by man's fam-

ily, the community, or the tribe.
-ive
This of courses not true on progressAreservations but it'd certainly
he true traditional reservation groups.
he true traditional reservation groups.
A.










SEM 166D-Side 1

Page 99 McKenzie



The behavior which we regard as delinquent or shiftless or unmotiv-

ated in reservation groups is usually a perfectly realistic adaptation
as the 9_) it's a
to reservation life i and as far Indians concerned respectable, response

to reality.

The tough job is to discover what the people of the reservation will

accept. And what they won't accept. And a try and work out a climate with-

in which living habits can be changedg3pwithout causing turmoil.

The Indian child is taught to be anxious abou completely differ-

ent set of social dangers. The American child learns to fear poor grades,

fighting, cursing, or having early sexual relations. The reservation learns
r
to fear quite something different. He learns not to talk to the teacher--

that that shows that he has studied. He learns to &) hide his good grades

for fear that he will be ridiculed by the rest of the class. He wants to

be tough because $ he doesn't want to be considered a baby and 0 he

learns altogether different things than the O( American child learns. And

for a completely wholly differeEnt set of reasons.

I think most social sciences agree that the higher the level of anxiety
is
in a society the greater the degree of alcoholism. And < drinking is

a very serious problem on Indaih reservations which indicates that these

people are pretty frustrated. They're.4B really e uptight and they find

too many answers in alcoholism.

No effective way of dealing with internal competition and aggression

has yet been devised nor is it--is one likely t~be devised as long as C

repression and retaliation remain the standard devise for dealing with in-

group aggressionsjg P of individuals or minorities. or instance, in
an ndain tribe tribal council is eleed. e
an Indain tribe lh tribal council is elected. The-fr the iirgroup. Now









SEM 166D-Side

Page 100 McKenzie



the tribal,. .-' has a limited amount of income. It has a

number of projects going maybe t they have a lot of little projects

they have M maybe they have i" -culture program of

some kind and maybe they have one or two little enterprises going. When

you examine the people who man those enterprisesyou're gonna find that

mostWb f the tribal leaders families are in all of the paying positions.

You think that you're gonna put a stop to that--you better think again

Because the tribes leaders they're gonna retaliate heyriot gonna put

up with you messing around with their fringe benefits. And S so there

are certain things that do occur in which q~mih the more aggressive members

of the Tribe take advantage of the less aggressive. AndfFh a-ot of

people when you talk to Indian members uh of the trib' heys ay well,
A A I A
he selected the council, 1 guess he has a right to do that. And they really

don't question it.

In. ACNorth Dakota after we had ,made t" ( payment I saw
A
one of the Tribal leaders in town and I stopped and talked with him a

minute. And I said, well, gih Hans what are you gonna do with all

of your money? Oh, he says *well, I'll put my money in the bank for awhile-

And I said, oh, ,ell, that's good, what're you gonna do with it? Well, he

said tell you, Rex I'm gonna wait until these Indians spend all their

oney Now he says there's some of these fellows are buying

some. pretty nice stuff /he says, the fella up there bought him a new saddle-

IT-d like to have that. He sai n other fella over there bought a pick-up
A A
x '__________ I know he's gonna .' " sell

that pretty soon and ( the4 they bought a lot of things that I'd like to











SEM 166D-Side 1

Page 101 McKenzie

0
have but I can't afford to pay that much money for it. So*qhe says,

I'm gonna wait until they go broke and then I'm gonna go over and tell
them say, you want sell that pick-up? You want sell that saddle.
o "> @ ^
He says, you watch, he says, I'll be able to bu all that stuff, he says
A A A a t
for about ten cents on the dollar. So he says if I wait I can get ten

times as much with my money as--if I try to do it now. Well, this is the
A
question--he's aggressive. He's gonna take advantage of the less i~. __
less able, more defenseless members of the tribe. There's

no way to stop that.
tn
I know pf my own tribe we had a--a man who was a minister and k$ he

was also an interpreter for the agency and abaP when ASi; the d realty

officer had to go out to draw up a will or he had to go out to talk to

somebody or anybody ____ government employees

to ddo .... business %gW with individuals well, ie took Abe along
wA Abe
with him ,/ ?/:/i and old Abe he'd go out long wit-. And \ used

to tell those Indians ~4oo what he wanted them to hear he just used

the. agency employees as W s@as f window dressing for his own self-aggrandiza-

tion among the Indian people. The Bureau never did find--the Bureau employ-

ees never did find that out. But q he took advantage of everybody n

old woman who wanted to leave her grandson some property and d....


[END OF SIDE 1]




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