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Q = Questioner (Gregory or Strickland)
1R = (girl)
2R = (boy)

Brighton Seminole Reservation
February 25, 1971
interviewers: Gregory, Strickland.

Tape 1, Side 1.

Q: What grade are you in?

/ R: Twelfth.

Q: Where did you go to grade school? You know, grades 1 through 6.

SR: First, when I started I went to Okeechobee and then I went to Big Cypress

and came back to Okeechobee and now I am going to Moore Haven.

Q: How many kids from Brighton are going over there to Moore Haven?

SR: I don't know, there is quite a few.

Q: How many of you are in the twelfth grade?

I R: Nine.

Q: Nine. Do you want to go to college when you finish?

R: Yes, I have been thinking of that.

Q: Where would you go?

/R: I don't have any plans now.

Q: Do you know of any Seminoles going to college now?

SR: Yes.

Q: Are there any from Brighton going to college?

IR: Yes.

Q: What are their names?

jR: There is one named Patty. This other girl, she just went not too long ago,

her name is Mary.

Q: What college is she going to?

SR: The one that just left?

a: Yes.

JR: She is going to a vocational training in California.

Q: Did they used to have a school here?

R: Yes,

Q: They usedto have a school here. Hen did they shut this school down here?
IR: I do ntt know.

Q: Did they have Idian teachers here or did they have white teachers?

JR: White.

Q: How long have you been going to school over at Moore aven? How many years?

IR: About seven years.

Q: Do you mix in with the whit+ids over there?

)R: Yjs.

Q: Do they have cheerleaders over there for the football team and the basketball


IR: Yes.

Q: Do the Indian kids get elected to any of the positions over there?

I R: This one did.

Q: Is that right? She is a cheerleader?

JR: Not now because she quit a couple of years ago.

Q: What classes are you taking now?

iR: I take Shorthand II, Office Practice, Business E7glish, AVC.

Q: What is AVC?

IR: Ammericanism versus Communism and I take Bandy,

Q: Is that right? What instrument do you play?

R: TAe cymbols-t.-ls the easiest one.

Q: Is that your mocher's sewing machine there?

JR: No, that is mine.

Q: That is yours. N$w how did you get that sewing machine?
JR: This thing came in the mail and said that we had a luck y number ae4 we went

and checked up on it.

Q; 7d you won that.

\R: Yes.


Q: Did you have a sewing machine.

)R: No, she use to but I have got two of them.

Q: You have got two?

] R: She uses them most of the time. I do ndt hardly sew.

Q: How may brothers and sisters do you have?

IR: Alf together there are seven of us in the family.AJNi -

Q: Is this one of your brothers here?

IR: Yes,

Q: Does he go to school at Moore aven too?

/R: yes. I have found brothererand two sisters.

Qt What does your daddy do?

IR: He is a heavy equipment operator.

Q: Where does he work?

fR: He works for the BIA,

Q: I see.

I N /- .

Q: DO you live in one of these houses over here?

: No, way down there.

Q: Do you all have a chickee at your house?

IR: No,

Q: You do not have one.

SR: ,a have a cement house.

Q: Is it a government house?

SR: No,

Q: You built it yourself?

/ R: We borrowed some money and they built it for us.

Q: When you were little did your mother ever tell you any stories or traditions or

legends or stories that the Seminoles use to pass on? You know that e the

things that we are looking for.

IR: Yes

Q: Did she ever tell you what do they call them chuffee tales, rabbit tales?

/R: Yes,

Q: She told you those?

R: Yes..

Q: Would she tell them to you at night or when would she tell them to you?

SR: They use to tell us at night and sometimes during the day.

Q: Did you have a campfire orAcertain time of the year that they would gather

together or just at night when you were going to sleep?

SR: The only thing that I remember was around the campfire at night. They

us) to scare us,:scared me anyway.

Q: What story did they tell you that scared you the most?

JR: I do npt remember.

Q: Are you going to scare your children?

JR: No.

Q: Does your mother tell her younger children the stories like she use to tell you?

i R: Once in a while.

Q: Once in a while.

(R: Most of them here are ikt superstitious.

Q: Is that right? Are you n*t superstitious?

i : 0 --uch.

4: We are both Cherokee and we are superstitious. Te Cherokees have little people.

I do not know if the Seminoles have that or not. We have what they call the little

people who came out. I think they came out, the Seminoles in Oklahoma have
V14 + +"l- dolrc1^-
little people too'they came out from Florida. Did any of them stay here?

'R: I do not know. ACIt ~ V

Q: Do they talk about witches or conjuring ?

)R: No,

Q: Is this one of your brothers too?

fR: Yes-

Q: 71at is his name?

JR: Johnny.

Q: What is the big one's name over there?

IR: Mingo.

Q: Mingo. Is that one of your sisters?

fR: Yes,

Q: Mich one of them is the meanest?

)R:. The oldest one.

Q: Are these some of your brothers here?

IR: No.

Q: Do they send any of the kids here Brighton up to Oklahoma to school any more?

Up to gSeea.

jR: Yes they do. S,2e of the kids that do not hardly go to school.

Q: Isee, as a kind of punishment?

1: Yes, something like that.

Q: Did you kn-cWaany of them that went up there to OklahomaR

fR: There has been qucre a few but you know most of them have been kicked out. Tey

ge into too unch trouble up there)I think.

0: Does yGou tnmoher ake you go to school or do you want to go to school?

JR: She tells us to go and I guess she wants us trso we go.

Q; If this your brother here?

R: Yes, he is the meanest.

Q: Does he go to school atMoor aven?

;R: Yes,

Q: What grade is he in?

SR: Twelfth,.

Q: You are both in the twelfth?

/R: Yes, I failed two years.

Q: You failed two years and he is smarter than you. Do any of the boys out here

play oa any of the teams over there?

IR: Yes,

Q: Do you all have to ride the school bus to get over there?

/R: Yes,

Q: HOw would they practice on the team if they ride the school bus? How would they

get home?

/R: Most of them took cars.

Q: They have got cars.

iR: He was playing but he did not want to practise every day so he quit. He said

that he did not hardly play much.

Q: What 46 most of the boys do when they first get their jobs around here? What

do they Do? Do they work for the BIA or do they go into mining?

R: We work in NYC.

Q: What is that?

R: Neighborhood Youth Corp.

Q: What kind of a job would you do?

R: W~ab I do ?

Q: Yes,

R: I do not know'that is just what I do.

Q: Is thatyour mother making skirts over there?

R: She is making a jacket.

Q: A jacket'that sure is pretty.

R: Q44a (J

Q: How much do those sell for?

R: I do not know.

Q: Does she take them down there and sell them at the pow-wow

R: N(, she is making them for my brothers.

Q: You are going down to ad-ace. Theyfave)got prizes for the best traditional


R: Yes, they do for costumes that they use to wear a long time ago.

Q: Do you think that we could get your brother to talk to us for a while?

R: Yes, I think so.

Q: She said that they still have the Green.. Corn around here. Is that right?

SR: Yes.

Q: How often do they have it?

'1R: About once every year.

Q: Aboutionce a year. Now what do you'll do at that? What do you do? Do you go
there and build a fire.

.R: Yesand dance every night.

Q: Dance every night,

.: For about five days.

Q: Five days. D/t hey still try to have the religious part of it?

.R: .l:e. do you mean by that?

Q: You know, where they make the black drink, Do they make the black drink any

L-o' 7h, dcm' nwtk d .!-t -.e, 4 7

-R: T/ey use medicine instead of that.

Q: That is what I mean. Wo makes the medicine?

;1R: ra-/ : 'l hat is who does it.

QL Is he your grandfather?-

'-LR: In a way he is.

1R: He is in the clan.

Q: What clan are you in?

2R: Thger.

Q: Tiger,
2JR: There are different kinds of clans girds and stuff.

Q: Are most of the people around here in one"^ e the all ea emt-

2-R: Most of thejare.

Q: Most of them around here Tiger?

,2R: Yes, T/ger and Birds are the ones.
./ .~-r'--- --- -
Q: Tiger and Birds are the major clans, s that right ? ~ P //'/ / o' o or/

R: Yes, D ,

Q: Do you still follow that way?

2 R: WI try to but sometimes people get married tt '*

Q: S1eetime the arry into another one.,0

;: You are on the football team over there at Moor aven?

)R: Yes, I was.

Q: You quit because they did not give you a chance play. Do you think that you

were as good as some of the people playing?

R: I played when I was a junior.

Q: You played the year before but they would not let you lay when you were a

senior? That hardly does not seem fair.

a R: Different coach that is all.

0: That do you do now when you take the medicine? Does it make you sick?

AR: It just makes me throw-up and clean out your insides as they say.

Q: They do that just once a year is that right?

,2R: Yes,

Q: In Oklahoma they have iA in July, es it vary from the date that they have it


:9-R: They have it every summer in June or July.


Q: Now in ours the Creeks up there drink a lot.I DO they drink a lot down here?

Ydu know drink whiskey.

2 R: Yes

Q: Do the older men try to not have the drinking there?

OR: TTey start it there. T ey are the best drinkers.

Q: Do you sit by clans over there when they have it or jdst around?

-R: YPt do h- have tocyou can do what you want too.

Q: Do you have a different leader for each song or do you have the same one.

d-R: Different one.

QL Howimany Indians would come to itc now ?

2.R: 50 dor some where along in there.


1_R: It does not matter who comes to it any moreaeverybody can come in,

Q: D{ they have whites come into it?

2 R: Yes.

Q: Well, is that looked upon as religion anymore? Are most of these people down

here Christians? Do they go to the Baptist Church?

SR: Yes, most of them are.
Q: What does the preacher Reverend Leader what does he think about-the Green Corn?

oR: I do et know what he thinks. H is gone now.

Q: oas he a .good preacher?

a-R: He was all right.

Q: Did you go down there to the church?

*2 R: Yes,

Q: Do you have a new preacher there?

R: Not yet.

Q: Have the ad lots of preachers down there?

2 R: Yes. T ey try to get one om-y- Sunday but not every Sunday.

Q: Do they preach in your language?

9 R: They preach in English.

Q: Most of the people go around here down to the Baptist Church?

SR: Yes.

Q: A lot of the Seminoles in Oklahoma go to'the Baptist Church but they do not

believe in it much. I that the way that it is down here? Do the people

believe in it or do they just go?

Z2R: I do not know. I think that they probably believe in it most of them.

Q: Are aot they burmsing anymore on the wrists4the old men still burn on the wrists

like they us to. Or is that jus he Me4eak-ees that do that?

3R: I d&ij know.

Q: Do you know what I am talking about? Have you ever seen that before where

they burn them on the wrists here?

.2R: I do nat- know.

Q: Two burn spots on the wrists. Do you know anything about the Mickasukeea at all?

2-R: Yes, their language. i

Q: Can you speak Mickasu.te?

2 R: N but I can understand it- crijj. bi-.

Q: You can. Is there any Mick sukees living down here?

2 R: Scme Micks---kees are living around here and some Creeks are living around here.

Q: Do you call yourself a Creek or Seminole or what are you\ c LA -

Q R: Creek.

Q: You do not call yourself Seminole ?
"4 i.'11 a e co U
R: They call as Creek, Mi;kasrkee and Seminole.

Q: I sees Are there any Indian police here? Any police that are appointed by
A /n A
the tribe?

1 R: Yes, we have one out here,

Q: Does he give the young boys a hard time?

PJR: No,

Q: He understands.

2R: Yes.

Q: What do you want to do when you get out of school?

aR: I was thinking about going to the junior college.

Q: Where C&" 7

. R: At Hollywood. dCt J-,a9

Q; At Hollywood? ,e,

Q: you were to get sick out here where would you go to a doctor?

2 R: To the clinic that is where we usually go.

Q: Is there any more Indian doctors out here at all that cook with herbs?

' R: YEs, Ctaaq-he the one that as telling you about. He stilioes it.

Q; What does he do? Does he make up herbs or blow on you? What method does he

use to cure ,61 .

.-R: He just makes up herbs like you said. My grandmlrher does too.

Q: Your grandme--r does too.

SR: My /ad de' t-o.

Q: Is that righz? Eow about you,,can you?

9 R: N

Q: Are they eC teaching the oldest boy?

SR: No

Q: Are there any young boys picking up the old ways orA/all of you picking up the

new ways?

'O-R: The new ways probably most of them,

Q: Do most of the Seminole boys and Creek boys want to leave or do you want to stay
down here ?
down here ?

2R: I don't know what they think.

Q: You want to go on to college?

2R: Yes, Try to.

Q: When you get a college education, would you come back out here?

2R: Yes, maybe. lee1.

Q: ANd fou say your grandfather can now what do you call him medicine

doctor, medicine man?

2R: Medicine man.

Q: What's some cures that he's done to you? Can you remember any at all?

2R: I had a sprained ankle once and he cured that for me.

Q: How did he cure it?

2R: I don't know, he put some kind of stuff on it, some kind of '' ,

mixed it with water and blow on it and sing too. Then you just rub

it on your sore leg and it hurt for a day.

Q: Atd He cured it that way?

2R: Yes. But you can't eat for a day. That's what he told me.

Q: Does he speak English?

2R;: No, not too good but he'll understand you, I guess.

Q: S none of the young boys are picking up this medicine man.

2R: Not around here, I don't think. But on the Trail, there's another reservation

on the Trail, and they're picking it up, most of the young guys over there.

:S you all hav credit here for the other Indians? Do you let them buy on


2R: Just some people.

Q: Do you have any trouble collecting the bills some time ,

2R: I don't know.

Q: No~,'5oes your family own this store?

2R: We just recently bought it.

Q: Who had it before you?

2R: The Tribe.

Q: The Tribe owned it and then you all bought it from the Tribe?

2R: Yes.

Q: pw-5re you paying the Tribe back for it?

1R: For the building and for some of the stuff that was in it.

Q: Who orders the stuff for it?

2R: We do.

Q: People come out, men from town, with the stuff and stock it?

2R: Yes.

Q: What are the biggest selling items that you have here in the store?

2R: Bread, I think.

IR: Everybody loves t bread.

2R: They don't bring the bread out here. W have to go in town and get it.

Q: What town do you buy it at?

1R: Okeechobee and sometimes Moore Haven.

Q: -And Ro you sell a lot of pop?

1R: Yes.

Q: How much do you have to pay for a loaf of bread that you bring out here and


1R: X and some of them for 7t'y f"r- ".. '

O: >. thesee things in the show case, did you all make them out here?

1R: e s.

Q: I see you got some Seminole dolls and some necklaces and rings, belts.

How did you all learn how to make these? Who taught you how to make them?

1R: My mother.

Q: Oh, your mother knew how. How did she know how?

2R: She learned it from my \randma, I guess.

1R: Most of them learn just by watching.

Q: Is she making those jackets over there to sell or is she making them special

for this celebration?

IR: Special for this celebration.

2R: If she wanted to, she could just make them for sell. I told her to make me

one so she's just making me one.

Q: (Are you going down there tomorrow?

2R: No, Saturday.

Q: NDNw, aat are they going to do down their Saturday?

2R: They have all kind of contests arts and crafts shows, alligator wrestling.

Q: Can you wrestle an alligator? Will you enter any of the contests?

2R: No, I'm just going down there::to watch.

Q: Now, is this the contest for the Princess?

IR: No, that's for the traditional costume.

Q: Oh, costume. Is that what your mother's making over there?

2R: Those are long, full-length costumes. That's just a jacket over there.
Ayie -Jiev/e Ai1y >-p&s
Q: De-any-of-them still wear the old costumes?

2R: Not around here. The ladies do, they wear the dresses. My mother, she's

got one on but it's not that old.

Q: Do you sell very much meat out here?

2R: No, not too much. We don't hardly order meat.

Q: ?hat about flour? Do you sell a lot of flour?

2R: Yes.

Q: When you go home from work here tonight, based on what people buy here, what

would be a typical dinner you might have tonight?

2R: I don't know, we just let my mother cook.

Q: Is she a good cook?

2R: Yes.

Q: Dd you have any special Creek Indian foods? Do you all have fry bread?

How does she make the fry bread? Do you know how to make it? What"

is it-- flour and water?

1R: Yes.

Q: Does she ever put any sugar in it?

1R: No.

Q: Do you all use it as a bread substitute? How do you use it?

lR: When you don't have no loaf of bread, you just make that. If you're not

too lazy to make it.

Q: Does she still make the fry bread?

1R: Yes, once in a while.

Q: Not too often.

1R: No.

Q: Do you all ever make 0 tampula?

1R: What's that?

Q: Okay. The Creeks in Oklahoma make tampula. Do you all makeSC4.


1R: Yes.

Q: Does she still make it? How often do you eat that?

IR: Every day. We don't eat it; we drink it.

Q: How does she make the t. sofkee?

1T: Water and arits or rice or corn meal.

2R: You boil the water first.

Q: Have you been eating () ofkee all your life? Ever since you can remember?

2R: Yes.

Q: Do you like it?

2R: Yes, it's ,kay.

Q: Do you eat it in the morning or in the afternoon Lnen do you eat it?

2R: Anytime you feel like it.


2R: We always have it.

Q: What about sweets? Do you have any special sweets like pies?

1R: (old drinks.

Q: Does she ever make pie or cake?

1R: She makes pies; she can't make cakes.
CAke/AA' ,
Q: What out of? Berries, apples?

1R: Guava pie and lemon. Thats' about all she makes.

Q: Do a lot of them make it around here, Guav jelly? T7 h \t {k iV...-- 1y D y~'

IR: Yes. '--. v
*'- ..i **- --- ,..-- _^_ __ j ; J 6
Q: Have you had it all your life- Guava jelly? You're shaking your head no?

2R: They sell it in the stores. Sometimes we make our own.

Q: Is there any white people that live out here at all.

2R: Yes, some do. Auys wife.,

Q: That's what I mean. So white women livAhere but no white men/.JLA' ?t

2R: They're not allowed to.

Q: White women aren't allowed to live out here?

2R: White men.

Q: But now you could bring a white woman out here if you married her, Right?

Why couldn't she bring a white man out here if she married him?

2R: The man is supposed to support the girl.

0: So a white man who married a Creek wouldn't move out herei vLia 4 -/ -c

12: 3o.
Q: TWhat if one did. Would the community pressure be so great against him?

2R: We'd just throw him out.

Q: In school, do any of your whiIa friends date white boys?

1R: Yes and they date Mexicans.

Q: Where's the hospital out here? When you all get sick, where's the hospital

you go go to?

1R: ~"Clewiston, bt they'd probably let you die, though.

Q: Do you have any UL doctors at all? Don't have any government doctors

a- al1 out here?

1R: There's a doctor that comes out here, a lady.

Q: Is it a nurse or a doctor?

1R: A doctor, a lady doctor.

Q: Where was your little brother born?

1R: CInes*een. CLei!'Sto-**,

Q: Where were you born?

IR: Okeechobee.

Q: Were you, too?













All of us were except for him.

So you all hLa-e felt much segregation out here like the Indians do some

places? You know, out where we come from, the Indians can't come into some

of the places with the whites. You all have always been able to use the

hospitals around here, as far as you know?


na -T )au o you go into the restaurants, too?


Just go al-a-ce you want to?


Do any of the Mexicans ever come out here?

There's some that work out in the fields.

What are those crops right over there?

Tomatoes. .

Is it owned by a farmer or a rancher down here?

A farmer, a white man.

























Do the Seminoles lease him that land? Is that what they do?

Yes. For about two years, I think.

Are there any ranches around here that the Indians own? That the ibe owns?

Yes. We own-the M cattle ranch.

Now this festival that's coming up at Dania, what's this festival?


Pow-wow, you call it a pow-wow? How many days does it last?

Two days, three days.

"- That is more a white man's type pow-wow, isn't it? It's not like your

Green Corn Dance, is it?


Did any of you aqt get scratched when you were young?

We all did.

All the guys got scratched. How old are you when you get scratched?

Just so you're a boy. When you're old enough to walk. All males.

What do they scratch them with?


Have you got any scars left from your scratches?


So they just scratch you on your arms?

On your arms, back, thighs.

,ho scratches you?

The older men.

Afd-hey don't scratch the girls?

I got scratched one time.

Was that punishment?


He says yes and you say no.



2R: Yes. We were swimming -( too much and we weren't allowed to swim L

down there so we had to all get scratched.

Q: Who scratched you.

2R: My grandfather. He's dead now.

Q: Was that your grandfather on your mother's side?

2R: No.

Q: On your daddy's side?

1R: Yes.

Q: Do they still scratch you at the Green Corn Dance? The oys?

1R: Yes.

Q: Ard en do they punish you now -like when they told you to quit swimming?

When did they scratch you then?

1R: Same day.

Q: What else do they do to punish you?

2R: Whip us and spank us.

Q: Just like white people now. Is scratching going out?

2R: For punishment it is but not at the Green Corn ance.

Q: Are you going to scratch your boys?

2R: I don't kncw.

Q: You don't think so?

2R: NX.

Q: How about yOu zoning over here and talking to us some. We're writing a book on

the Seminoles. What are those cards?
3R: Ri+ynHg cards.

?: They got this Neighborhood Youth Corps.Y hey got another name for it now;

I don't know what it is' They started out with the Neighborhood Youth Corps.

-Ad These boys from age '4 to as long as they're in school and under 12-,,---

they can work hours a week during school.

Q; Now what do you do?

Q: Wd;ka do yu dl ?

3R: Me?

Q: Yes.

3R: I just sign these cards. As little as possible.

Q: Do you think it does them any.good?

?: I think it does. It gives them a little spending money. That's what every-

body's after, isn't it? T k A0l E P. ( r',t.-

Q: Are they boys staying around or are they leaving here?

?: Well, I been here about six years steady now, and I don't know of aay boys

leaving since I been here.

Q: They're all staying around?

?: They're all staying pretty close by.

Q: What do they do for jobs around here?

?' They have odd jobs. A lot of the older men, when they get out of school, they

work for the government building these roads. Most of these roads are built

with government funds and they work for the government. Now, where these

are paved, the county come in and done that but all these graded roads are

done by the

Q: Do you go down to their July celebration? Do they still call it the Green

Corn Dance around here or they call it (?) Stomp?

2R: Well, either way you want it.

Q: Do you go to them?

?: Ze=, sir. I gc to them once in a while.

Q: What did there used to be for the boys around here ten years ago? There didn't

used to be Neighborhood Youth Corps jobs. What did they do to make money?

?: I don't know really. Well, like this tomato field over here they go out and

look for odd jobs. Maybe go.into town and work for two or three days, something

like that. Other than that, like I said, this program has helped them quite a

bit. This helps them buy some of their clothes and what-have-you while they're

in school. And it kind of encourages them to stay in school also because they


?: know they got this little bit coming.

Q: Well, now, are you they're supervisor or what?

?: I'm supervisor of about six of these boys. I work on the cattle program here

and these boys work with me. Of course, they got girls and boys working on

this program. This guy over here, he has two or three girls and a boy working

with him. He's in the recreation department. LIke the Headstart up around

the headquarters. They have two or three up there also. Most all the kids

in that age group works well, not all of them. My boys here work on the

weekend. They try to work two hours a day but that's too much trouble for

me. You have to wait till they get out of school and by the time you get

where you're going to, you have to turn around and go .back home. I may

not be working right here at the time that I need them so we work on the

weekends. They put in 10 hours a week.

Q: You want your boys to go to school and get an education.

?: Oh, yes. Most all these boys with the exception of one or two, go to

school. But the ones that aren't going to school, they can't work on this


Q: Do the parents want them to go or do they go on their own?

?: Well, I think most of them want them to. Before, you know, the parents

discouraged them.

Q: Do you think the old ways are dying out around here?

?: Well, I'm ncc going to say it's dying out. A lot of youngsters are coming

back to it. It's slowed down a little I'll put it that way. But I don't

think it will die out. Of course, the language is kind of dropping out.

Maybe this little girl's kids won't know it when they're her age. But she

knows it so, therefore;,I'll assume she'sll teach her kids but I don't know.

Of course, a lot of kids I know right now that are ten, eleven years old,

don't know it. Some kids can understand it. Like I've got two kids of my

own. They know some words. But, her kids may not know it.

Now, you all still have the Green.Corn here. Do you go:to it?

Once in a while.

it's five days?

Five days.

Is it still looked on as religion?

Right. In fact they have been trying to get them to do some of this

at this pow-wow they're having in Hollywood this weekend. In fact, this

is about the second time they've done it that I know about.

Q: They don't usually do that out in public, do they?

?: No, they usually don't. That is their religion but

the open.

Q: And the boys were telling me that they still have an

here. Do many of the people go to him around here?

?: Oh, yes. He cures with

now it's coming out in

Indian medicine man around

Q: Where's that at?

?: Oklahoma. I used to go to. school with some girls over here. They sent them

over to Sequoia.

Q: Now, you all look upon yourselves as Creeks?

3R: Yes, a lot of them do. There's two different languages here Seminole and


End of Tape 1, Side 1.

Tape 1, Side 2.

one or two words that I might.make out what they're-saying but as far

as make out what they're talking about, I couldn't.

Creeks and SEminoles

Well, we had one or two guys, we have a guy here now Who's from Oklahoma -

a Seminole.

Is that right? What's his name?

What is that guy's name? That's married to that Billy girl? Buster Hargill (?)

I went to school with Scotty Hargill (?).

Well, this guy came from Oklahoma this is another fellow I'm talking about -

he came from Oklahoma way back and married one of my aunts and had 3 or 4

young uns. He died about 3 or 4 years ago. He spoke the same language we

do only his was a little different. Things he said, we laughed about because

that's not the way we'd say it. I guess it was something like the difference

between a Yankee and a Southerner. But he always spoke his language and we

spoke ours.

And you understood him?

Yes. He spoke, I guess you would say, more or less, the real, true Seminole.

We have probah-l added a lot of slang to ours because a lot of things, I

remember when I was a kid, we'd call things and he'd say it the way they used

Ssay 1iTt.

P- ^iL jb r ^ oa hk" ^i Dr' e ^trc

Well, who is he?

He's one of the laziest Seminoles I know.

That's Joe Johns. He's the most-extensive-traveled Seminole here.

Is that right?

He's been everywhere.

Where you been, JOe?

." .24

Jd: Where haven't I been?

3R: He's known in these rodeo circles all over. He used to be good but when he

hit that 40 mark, he started going to pieces.

Q:. So, a lot of the old ways are losing.out around here.

JJ: I wouldn't say they're losing out. They just come in cycles. They slow down

and then maybe ten years from now they'll pick it back up and it'll go stronger.

It's.just like everything else I've run into. Talking about everything dying

out, this happening and that happening. I-dnn't go along with that. People

make things like they want it and they believe what they want to believe

because everything is here like it was 100 years ago or 500 years ago.

Q: you don't think it has changed that much?

JJ: No. It's maybe a little faster.

Q: Do you all still make the black drink at the fire over here? Will you give it

to all the boys? Do the women drink the black drink?

JJ: I guess they still do because they get mighty happy every now and then. Yes,

I think they still pretty much do.

Q: You go to the dance but you don't take part in it?

JJ: No. Like I said, around here they still practice it like a religion and I don't

participate in it every day so when I go, I dnn't participate in it. I'm just

like a specatator.

Q: Were you scratched?

JJ: Yes, when I was a kid. I guess that was one of the main reasons I quit going.

Scared I was going to get scratched.

Q: Did you scratch your boys?

JJ: No. No, it's got to be an uncle on your daddy's side that does the scratching.

I mean, they don't let just anybody do it. If you're going to be around this

weekend, I guess they're going to have a simulation of the Corn dance in Holly-


JJ: All of the Corn Dance and everything.

Q: Are you knid to them here now?

JJ: No

Q: Not any kin to them ?

JJ: No, I do not think so I do not claim them anyway. They are Jones and I am

Johns. THey maybe kin.

Q: What is your clan?

JJ: TIger,

Q: Tiger. Where I taught at Mussockee I had about twenty tigers there on _my

football team there and they were full-blooded Oklahoma Seminoles. THey were the

best athletes that I had.

JJ: Well, youknow they believe in that clan system pretty strongly; here for

many years until here recently I think it has slowed down a little bit.

Q: Some of then still believe in the clan?

JJ: Yes and they marry according to their clan.

Q: What would happen if you did not marry in your clan?

JJ: I guess that they would probably disown--you~something of that nature. I do not

really know.

Q: Did you ~mar7 zry ? your clan?
JJ: No, I married our fo my clan.

Q: 7.icr. is all right.

JJ: Well, I assZ-e i is because I married a non-Indian.

Q: You married a non-Indian? How did they look at that? How did your Bad and

Mother look at that-at you marrying a white girl?

JJ: I do not really know. I guess,since we are both over 21,..they figured it was

our lives to live.

Q: Is that the way that you feel today? Your kids can marry whoever they want to?

JJ: Not just anybody.

Q: What about a black? If they were to marry a black what would be your attitude

on that?

JJ: I do not know. I guess that they are human just like anybody else. I do not

really know. I guess that I will have to cross that bridge when I come to it.

I hear a lot of people express their feelings ahead but the people that do have to

eat crow. I have seen a lot of people back down. A lot of things that I said

that I would-not do I have ended Fdoing.

Q: Were you raised in a chickee?

JJ: Yes, the biggest part, of the time.

Q: Now you live in a what?

JJ: I have a house trailer down there.

Q: A house trailer.

JJ: They would not give me one of these houses like they got up here.

Q: Is that right? Did you help build a chickee cf would you know how to build

one today?

JJ: If I had to, yes, I believe that I could, but to just go out there and build

one I do not think so.


JJ: Yes, when she is asleep. SHe is mean"that is what her Daddy says.

Q: Is there much of a drinking problem out here? Do they have a good time on

Saturday nights?

JJ: In the young people much more then in the older people.

Q: No different then in town.

JJ: None. When an Indian does it and goes to jail it is a sad thing but when a

white man does it and goes to jail it is nothing and nobody looks at that. Nobody

even thinks anything about it.

Q: The drunk Indian.

JJ: That is right. When one gets drunk well then they all are drunk.


Q: That is right. Now these girls live out here too?

JJ: YEs, those tew are Joe's sisters.

Q: see. DO they a to school at .Mer an too ?

JJ: That is right.

Q: You can not own a piece of land out here can you?

JJ: It is owned by-evsmfthy. A- r e .

Q: Are their any Indians out here that have a lot of money? You know, are

pretty well-to-do, have a big car.

JJ: I do not really know. Everybody works.

Q: What is the best job out here to have?

JJ: No job. I would assume that woull be the best job.

Q: Are many of them on what you would call welfare?

JJ: Unemployet. I think the most people that are on welfare is old people past

65 other thbn that I do not know of any. There maybe some on welfare-dependents

or something like that.

Q: Is that the city-school bus there?

JJ: No, that is that black shge4 bus. They work on these tomato fields, labor bus.

Q: You mean that not many:Indians work over there it is mostly black?

JJ: A few of hea work over there, one or two. Most of the Indians are pretty

independent. You see, this time of year they are cutting the cabbage palms for

Palm Sunday and they are all over these woods cutting the heart out of these

abbge tr..-

Q: Who does that? Does some company do that and you work for them? Or do you do

it yourself?

JJ: We cut them and then they are shipped all over the world. I guess you would

call it a company; he buys them from the Indians. I see now that he is paying

a dollar a bundle for them.

Q: A dollar a bundle. How many does it take to make a bundle?


JJ: 25 to make a bundle. It does not take too long. IF the people go out

and stay at it all day they make about a hundred dollars a day. THey clear

around fifty or sixty dollars a day. Some of them do better and some of them

do less.

Q: Do you have to haul. them in yourself?

'7 : No, you bring them to your house and a fellow picks them up and he has got

a truck.

Q: What did they use to do around here-say ten or twenty years ago?

JJ: The same thing.

Q: It hes not changed that much.

JJ: NO, the&only thing that has changed is,maybe the cars. The people hhve not

changed that muchothey just think a little faster.that is all. THey are getting

more modern houses but I think that their old way of cooking is still the same.

Q: Do they have electricity?

JJ: Yes, gas,whatever. I think that is still pretty much the same it is just

more compact. Where these chickees were they had four or five chickees and they

cooked under one chickee. Mow they are in the house and it is all compact and

they do not have the big area and everything that they need is right therein

front of them,

Q: It seems like a lot of sare going to school now more then they use to.

-L Creek ccunmrr up here not many kinds would go to shcool they would only go to

the first or second grade. Was that the way that is was when you were growing


'7J': Pretty much so. We were not really forced to go to school. The town people

they did not really care whether the Indian kids went to school or not. In fact,

Moore Haven did not want the Indians to go to school. So they use to go to Jchool

in Okeechobee. THey went for many years. Then recently after this aid started

to come in then they went to Moore Haven because Moore Hasen had to have this extra

JJ: money. Of course, them people at Moore Haven say that ain't it. But they didn't

want us going to school with them before but now they want them.

Q: Why did they close the school out here?

JJ: Well, I think it was for the lack of teachers and the grade variation. You

know, you'd have to teach one kid in the first grade and one in the sixth so

it's easier to send them to town. They can all get the same education as

everybody else. Which I thought was better.

Q: Do you think it's better now that they're all going into town?

JJ: Oh, yes. It's no use having a separate school. You learn the same thing.

Once an Indian get out of school here they'd run a test on him and say that

he probably got an equivalent of an eighth grade education. This way, i

think, they end up as smart as anybody else and maybe smarter only they may

not express their feelings as most people do. I think that's very helpful to

everybody here.

Q: Would you like to see this Brighton and all this kept out here? A

separate Indian community?

?: WEll, I don't kcow. People don't bother me none. We in the cattle business

and I myself would like to see a little progress not really modern and every-

thing putti=g in subdivisions and everything, I wouldn't want to see that.

I think most people here are happy with the way things are because if they're

not, it's kind of too late to be crying now. You know, most people can get

whatever they want.

Q: Now. they can?

?: I think so. Most of them can within reason. They don't go up to somebody

and say, "I want to build me a mansion here," or something. But industrial

and other things come in and they pollute everything and I'd just rather leave

things the way they are.

Q: Is there ever anywhere around here the old dugouts? Did you ever hear back in

Q: the old days where they used to go up and down the water here?

?: I used to hear the old-timers talking when they used to hunt for alligators

I had never really dug back that far in

asking people what they used to do 100 years ago so I don't really know where
could see
the dug-outs would have manuevered around here. Of course, I w~nidxkP w where

they would have a little further south. Around here,

Q: Now what is that?

?: That's a Headstart school, a pre-school. They start them in at two years old

on up to kindergarten.

Q: Where's that.

?: Up there at the shop in the old school building. I guess that was one of the

first buildings on this reservation and it's still there. And they use it

to put these kids in from two to four, I think it is.

Q: Was that the teacher driving the bus there?

?: No, I didn't notice.

?: Who's Alice?

J3: Alice? She's a social worker Alice Snow.

Q: Does she live out here?

Jj: Yes. She's a bus driver,; she's a deacon.

Q: Do you know Alice? Is she married?

jJ Yes. That wc'au be her sister-in-law. I don't want to talk about her.

She's into everything out here. Whatever you need, why,

you can see her. Whatever you don't want, well, she's into it, too.

Q: Is she Indian?

JJ: Right. She helps quite a bit.out here. And you know, with kids you never have

enough help. They have about 20 head up there from 2 to 4, I think. But once

they get that kindergarten age, why, they send them to town. Which is better,

I thin,.

Q: They didn't used to always have this building here, did they?

JJ: This building here?

Q: Yes. Is this new?

JJ: It's only about five years old.

Q: What did they used to have out here, where you could buy groceries and things?

JJ: Nothing.

Q: Wh ere did you have to go to get most of your supplies?

JJ:" I think most people went to Okeechobee. Or Moore Haven or Lake Placid or

S n. But we're about in the center part and it's about 25 miles anywhere

you go. Clueston is about 45 miles; 25 to Moore Haven and about the same

to Okeechobee this way.

Q: What do you do for fun out here? Your age? On Saturday or Friday night.

?: Go home and watch TV.

Q: Go home and watch TV? Now, that doesn't sound like a typical Indian. What

did you do when you were little?

JJ: I cried an awful lot. Well, they have a basketball court and a community hall

up here and most of these young people go up there and play basketball. Well,

we built an arena un there and once in a while we have a rodeo.

0: You have a rode? Does he ride in it?

JJ: Right. 1 guess that's the way I spent most of my weekends when I was a teenager.

Yes, we used to do that and put on one in Hollywood but we quit.

Q: Was it an TLdin- rodeo?

?: Yes, Joe and I used to run it in Hollywood with help from one or two others.

Q: How come you dropped the rodeo?

?: Well, I think one reason was that Uncle Sam wanted me to help out a little;

they were having a little trouble. But when I quit, they had two others

around but they all quit.

Q: You think that if we went down and talked to her, the lady that was driving

the bus, she could help us a lot?

?: Anyone that you talk to. MOst people, a lot of people come here expecting to

get all their information in two hours. There was one lady here a while back.

She was trying to record some of the old songs and all this and I told her,

"Lady, if you don't mind me saying so, you're wasting your time." She said,

"I'll see if I can get a few songs." I said, "Well, be my guest. I'll put

you on the right people, on the right trail." And I think about two weeks

later she got disgusted and left and said, "I think the best thing to do is

to just leave the people along. I think it's the best way of doing things,

anyway, to not tell nobody nothing." I said, "I've think you caught the idea.

Their songs and dances are a religion to them and they're not going to just

share it with everybody." They never have so I never did expect them to do

it. And even at the Green Corn Dance, they had two or three guys there with

tape recorders and they told them no, they just couldn't do it. That's all

there was to it.

Q: NOw, the white guys wouldn't want the Indians coming into their church and

tape-recording their songs.

?: Some may. I don't know, they all sing the same songs. They're all trying

to get to heaven. I guess there ain't but one heaven. I don't know that.

Maybe they got one for black, one for red, and one for white. If they do,

I hope I get a chance at two of them. It's hard to say. But this lady,

she finally got discouraged. Then she had some old songs that she had borrowed

fro: somebody up the country. And she asked me if I had ever heard of it and

she played them for me. And I said, "Yes, I heard of them, similar to what

song they sang here." And she said that this didn't have all the meaning to

it because two guys just sat down and sang it for the tape recorder. And I

said, "I could have almost told you that when I first heard it because that

doesn't even express anything." That was just a song and that's it. Just a

flat song. She said that was what she was wanting, something that had meaning

to it.. I said, "Well, for a feller to sit there and sing to you would be like a

like Tom Jones just tie him up and give him, don't give him a microphone

and take him out there and tell him to sing and wiggle. Because the dancing

they do, I guess, the dance and the steps are all similar but the songs are

different. They have different meaning and they way they do things has a

different saying. While they're out there in motion and singing they are

really expressing themselves but while they're just sitting there in front

of a tape-recorder and singing it would be something else.

Q: Yes, that's right. Do they have a baseball team out here that goes into the

other towns?

?: Yes, also basketball. Well, all these boys, young boys, they work off of the

reservation it's just a few that works here so when they get in it's

pretty late. So therefore they don't get much pr actice or anything. You

know, they try, they have a team that gets up. In fact they have these

boys that go off to Oklahoma last year, last September to play baseball.

Basketball, wasn't it? I don't know what it is. It was something they went

up there to play.

Q: The INdian school where we're from has one of the best basketball teams in the

country. They're really good. Of course, they get Indian boys from all over.

We used to get the Creek boys, they're the best ones, because where we're

from is a Creek town. And they used to be real good. But now a lot of

black boys are coming in and playing at the Indian school.

?: Are they i-iLans?

Q: No. Not a drop.

?: How do they get in Indian school?

Q: don't know. I guess they opened it up to everybody.

?: They couldn't stand it either, huh. They had to have some of that money.

Q: The Indians had to have some of that black money.

?: I don't know how many boys we got on this team here in town but they seem to


?: be the champs in their district right now.

Q: Is this the bus driver that came by while ago?

?: No. She's as big as one. Where's Alice Snow?

?: She's in Hollywood.

Q: Where's that other lady live you were.telling us about while ago?

?: Alice?

Q: Ye.s

?: She's in Hollywood right now, they said. Our main office, everything is

functioning through Hollywood. This is just a little subdivision out here

that we work under.

Q: But I mean the gal that was driving the bus through here.

?: She's a, I guess they call, a qualified teacher, whatever that means.

Q: Does she live out here?

?: She lives off the reservation.

?: Six or seven miles from here.

Q; What was her name?

?: Joyce Norton.

?: The social worker is Alice Snow.

Q: And she's a social worker?

?: Alice is.

Q: And Joyce Norton is?

?: She's the Eeadstarc teacher.

Q: And where does this Joyce live? Right down that road there? How far?

?: Six or seven miles from here.

?: Go down this road and you hit the dead end there and take the highway to your

left. Go down about two miles.

Q: What side of the street does she live on?

?: Left-hand side.

Q: Well, OK, boys, we sure do appreciate your conversation. We're from Oklahoma.

Q: Did you ever come up to Oklahoma for any of the rodeos up there?

?: NO. I been to Oklahoma but not to no rodeos.

Q: You never been to the Creek or Seminole towns there

?: No. I know some people that been to

Q: There's an Indian boy that ran a lot of livestock there from Henrietta but

I can't remember his name. Do you remember his name? Jim Shoulders?

Did you ever ride on any of his stock?

?: No. Well, I rode some of his stock but he wasn't there.

Q: Yes. He was a world champion there for a while but he got busted up so many

times. I don't know what happened to him. I think he's just running live-

stock now. He got a school down there in Henrietta where he trains rodeoers.

Did you just pick up rodeoing?

?: Yes. I picked it up just like you said back when I was young. We thought we

was good enough and we went at them. And we beat them, too. We beat them

pretty good. I'm going to one this weekend.

Q: Whereabouts is it?

?: Right over here in Labelle (?) about 30 mile.

Q: You know, u- in Oklahoma about every little town has got a rodeo in summertime.

June, July and August. I think they have the finals up there at Oklahoma

City, don't -heay?

?: Yes. The outfit that I'm with, they had theirs in Tulsa. That was about three

-eks ago.

Q: Did you all ever think about training the boys down here to follow you or just

do it on your own?

?: We want to but we don't have the livestock.

Q: You don't have anything to train them with.

?: It can be done. We can do it because I done it for almost 15 years.

Q: Were your purses enough to keep you alive eating?

?: Yes. I done real good for a few years, till I got married.

?: When I was single I could just get in the car and go with anybody to the


Q: What did you do for a horse? I mean, did you just borrow somebody's horse?

Or rented it?

?: Well, yes, you leased them. Whatever you win, you give them a fourth. If

you win a hundred, you give them $25. And like we was, we was just going to

the rodeo day.after day.

Q: Purses weren't very big then, were they?

?: No, not too much. They're getting better all the time

Q: Do you work with him?

?: We're raising bulls out here.

Q: What kind of bulls are you raising? Herefords?

?: Yes. We got to where you couldn't find any bulls. And we had a lot of cattle

here and every year you had to go out and buy 20, 30 head of bulls and it

got too expensive. So, the Universityoof Florida, they started this project

out here and it's been doing pretty good so far. We've b-een getting a good

selection from them and it's-getting better.

Q: Now, does the tribe own these bulls?

?: Right. They own the bulls and we work through the University of Florida.

To them, It's more of an experiment station but for us, it's the life of

our cattle. If you have to go and look for a bull, it's going to cost anywhere

frm $400 to 3-00 apiece. I mean a good bull. So we started raising our

own and some of them are looking pretty good so he's been helping us out over

there on that project.

Q: How many head you got now?

?: On this reservation, I don't know, about 3500, I'd say.

Q: 3500? Wow. HOw many Indians are working on it?

?: Well, just two of us. But see, the 3500 are owned individually. The cattle

are owned out individually except the project. The project where he works at

?: has about 300 head of cows which we select these bulls from. But most of these

cattle are individually owned and I more or less take care of the young heifers

because they're all together. But all the breeding herds are all in different

pastures which most of the owners take care of. The cow owners are supposed

to take care of their own cows. MOve them when they're supposed to be moved;

keep their fences up. When this man gets out, he's supposed to plant grass

out there.

Q: How long has he got that lease for?

?: He probably has it leased for about three.-years at a time.

Q: Did he clear that or did you all clear it?

?: Well, I don't know that he done any clearing. It was already that way when:

he come in so he just farmed it as far as I can see.

Q: So after that lease is up, you all will probably move cattle over there.

?: right.

?: He grows tomatoes over there and brings colored people in.

?: He tried to hire Indians but Indians don't want to work. You know, a lot of

Indians don't want to work with the colored people. But therers some that

works for him, 2 or 3.

Q: How do these guys get these good houses up here? How do you go about getting


?: It's through that OEO low-income family. Some of the people only pays $12

a ronth. Yes, I told them, "Lord, that there is cheaper than my light bill."

Yes, that's for low-income families. You got to qualify for it. The guys

that couldn't qualify for it, like this guy over here, he's building him a

new home which he just borrowed money from FHA or from the tribe just like

anybody else would do. And two orthree others are doing the same thing.

Q: Do a lot of the Indians want those homes?

?: Not really. They didn't want them all together like it is right now but that

was the only way they could qualify for it so that's how they got them. MOst

?: of them wanted it where they were living at right then, at the time. They

didn't want them that way. In fact, a lot of them are not satisfied right now.

Q: We were talking to some ladies up there a while ago, and they said it was so

hot in there.

?: Before they lived all over this reservation. They didn't live in a bunch.

Cause I don't blame them. I told them not to accept them. I told them,

"I believe you can get what you want." but, they was wanting houses so

they got them.

Q: So you think it would have been better to build in those, in there?

?: I think so. The housing outfit was afraid they would move out and then the

house would be standing there vacant and nobody would move in and they

would lose all that.money on that house. Which is true, but then again

a family that has been living there for 25 years, where are theygoing to

go? If they were going to move, they woull have moved long ago. Most of

them, you know, they've already picked their spots and they've stayed in

them so long, they call it home. And I can't much blame them for wanting

to come back to them.

Q: Why did you come back? You went out and saw all the world, and saw all the

countryside, why'd you move back here?

?: That's a funny question. HOme. Raised around here. I.don't care where the

hell you go, there ain't no place like home. It's what you get used to.

0: Yu lived in tcwn for a while?

?T 'Yes, I lived in town. I got a house in town but they started this program

here and they asked me if I would come in and help them and I said, "I'd

be glad to. In fact, it's right down my lane." So I moved here and even

if I left here, I assume I could keep everything wh-ere it's at now 'cause

like I say, it's home. I don't know of anyplace else I'd be comfortable.

But I lived two or three places and I was never comfortable. But out here

I'm comfortable, I feel like it's where i belong

?: The lady that we was telling you lived out here 6 or 7 miles?

Q: Yes, that white lady?

?: Yes. I used to live right next door to her I worked on that ranch ad-

joining the reservation there. I lived there six years.

Q: Did you marry an Indian, too?

?: No, I married a white lady.

Q: Where was she from?

?: Fort Lauderdale. I met here when we was putting on rodeos down there.

Q: The girls were telling me a while ago that an Indian girl, lady, wouldn't

bring a white man out here. Is that right? Now why is that?

?: Well, it's one of the regulations they got.

?: If a white man married an Indian woman, he's supposed to make the home. If

an Indian marries a white lady, he makes the home and brings her out here.

I didn't understand it for a long time. I thought maybe they didn't like

them or something but it makes a lot of sense.

Q: What about the white guy that was here a while ago?

?: He's an extension agent. He works with the extension, through the University

of Florida which they sent us.

Q: Oh, he's the far agent?

?:. e works on tis reservation and the Big Cypress reservation. I say 'works' -

He rides th=r-gh, rides around. NO, he's been mighty good; he's been mighty

helpful to us. You know, they always say you don't appreciate a man till he

leaves. He's done a lot of help. He can get around and talk to different

people. He can get word around. And he lives in town, too, so they can call

each other up and see what's going on. And it works pretty good. So, I'm

always accusing him: f not doing anything but he's done more than he should.

Well, I don't really know what he's supposed to do. A lot of night work in-

volved in it, too. He has to go to a lot of meetings 'cause he's got to come

to them. He's not too fond of those meetings at night. Because when we have

?: one we don't know when to quit.

Q: What kind of meetings do you all have at night?

?: Community meetings.

Q: Now, do you all have a representative out here?

?: We have two.

Q: Who are they?

?: Richard Smith and Howard Mickle. Howard lives right over here; Richard lives

in the circle. When he went in, he told me he didn't have no house and he

wanted a house, so they built him one. But I think he pays quite a bit more

then those people over there.

Q: Now, what do those representatives do for you all? Do they go to the main

meeting down at Dania?

?: Yes, supposedly. And report our needs and wants and don't.

Q: Now, you all had a woman in charge, didn't you?

?: Yes, Betty Mae. She's still in charge.

Q: She's still in charge? Is she a good leader?

?: I guess so. Yes, she must had a lot of pull cause she's in there.

Q: Is she elected?

?: Yes. Our president resigned.

Q: To was the old president?

?: Joe Dan Oscecla. So when he resigned, instead of having another election which

is coming up in May, they just let it ride and let her and the secretary,

treasurer take care of it. They won't fill that office until they have the


Q: .Now, does everybody get to vote on that?

?: Right, everybody that's 21.

Q: How do you vote? Do you vote here at the store?

?: No, we'll probably vote up there at the recreation hall, community hall. I

assume that's where we'll vote. I don't know, we may even vote here.

Q: And when you have your meetings at night, you say you don't know when to stop?

?: Well, we have long meetings.

Q: Do you all have pie suppers like we do? We have pie suppers and bake sales

and sometimes chili suppers. How do you all raise money, like, for some


?: We have like cake-walks to raise money for whatever we all want to use it.

?: Put on a barbeque. sometimes just take donations.

Q: Where would you get the cow to barbeque?

?: Some of the owners would probably donate one cr we'd get one from the owners.

Q: Indian?

?: White. He may donate it or sell it cheap. If he knows what it's for, he usually

don't want the market price. Maybe half of it. We've been pretty generous to

one another on things of this nature.

?: We had quite a few people here last year, in August. We had a rodeo. We usually

have one, make it an annual deal. We had around 3,000 people out there last


Q: Did you charge them or did you take up donations?

?: No, we just passed a hat around.

?: It was just kids putting on a show, put up a little money kind of like a jackpot.

?: So, this yer we're looking for a bigger one. Because we fed them free.

Q: I think we- cght to drive down for that. Up where we come from, they've been

giving buffalo to the Indian tribe for their celebration. If you have your tribal

leaders write in, they'd send you the buffalo meat and fur.

?: What do we write this to?

Q: Department of Interior.

?: In Oklahoma?

Q: No, in Washington. You had to write to Washington and I think they sent them

whole buffalos down.

?: The state of Washington?

Q: No, Washington, D.C.

?: Good, I'm going to lean on our representative pretty strongly. We may have a

buffalo this y.ar.

Q: Yes, they're sending them out. "Cause the Choctaws got them; the Cherokees did.

?: Right there in August, no, September, they had buffalo there at Telaquaw (?).

Q: Where do the Miccosukees live around here?

?: Way south.

Q: Some of them living here?

?: Oh, there's a few scattered out. Some down in Hollywood. But most of them are

down at what they.call Tamiami Trail which is HIghway 41.

Q: What's the difference in Miccosukees and Creeks?

?: The language is different foi one thing. And I guess if you look at them just

right, the people are a little different. I guess it's 'cause I look at people

3 or 4 different ways and I can almost tell you what one's going to say.

Q: Do they have different ways than you all?

?: No, I think most of them are pretty similar. 'Cause they have a clan system

just like we do.

Q: Do they have the same names for the clans?

?: Yes, that's why I couldn't figure why they was called Miccosukee and the other

bunch was called

End of Tape 1, Side 2

Gregory Strickland Comments, Brighton Reservation

Tape 2, Side 1

?: and then we take a chalk from the fire and every time the men

score, why, we give them two sides and the women has two sides. And the one

that fills up their space (?)

?: Well, what it is, they put that pine tree out there what, about thirty foot high?

?: Yes, about a thirty foot pine tree.

?: And they cut it all off except the bush; they leave the bush on top. If they hit

anywhere above the mark of the bush, they score, this is just men against girls.

And they just keep going round and round the tree, maybe ten on one side and ten

on the other side. And if you're going to play, you better wear your oldest shirt

or they'll tear it off you. Them women will tear your clothes off you trying to

get that ball.

?: They have these clubs, these sticks that they use, the men use it; they can't

use their hands,

?: They got to catch the ball with that.

Q:. And we have another-one where, like a football field, you see, we have a little

leather ball they put in the middle and then they try to get it down. Two sides

playing. You all don't play that one at all?

?: That's sort cf like lacrosse, isn't it?

Q: Yes, that's .-ere they got lacrosse.

?: I think the Cherokees play that.

Q: Yes.

?: No, that's the only game we have with the girls.

Q: Has your wife picked-up any Indian ways at all?

?: No.

Q: She doesn't. Does she make fry bread or anything?

?: Yes, I guess she can. But the language itself is no value.

Q: She doesn't speak it?

?: She doesn't even know a word of it. But, you know, as far as the language

having any value, it's just knowing it and being able to speak it. That's all

because nowadays most people speak English; even the old people speak English.

It's no greater advantage to know it.

Q: What about your children?

?: Well, I figure if they're interested, they'll pick it up. I don't believe I

have to go teach it to them; I think they'll pick it up. In fact, I believe

they'll pick up faster if you just let them alone then if you just teach them.

Well, my kids are .7 and 9 so anything they want to know, they usually ask me and

I tell them what it is.

?: You stand right here and just listen to them kids when they come in there, they'll

talk to each other in English. Even that one right there. She'll talk to another

little girl in English. And She'll go talk to her Mama in Indian.

Q: So they're thinking in terms of English, then.

?: I would think so, yes. Well, when I try to interpret things, I look at it from

both angles, ways, and I can ex-press my thoughts in English easier.

Q: But you learned Indian first?

?: Yes, I probably did. Some things I can express in Indian better than I can in

English; most of ther-time, like, speaking to these older people, I usually explain

to them in English and then ask them in Indian if they know what I was talking

bout. And icst of them pretty well know.

Qt Now, both your mother and father spoke to you in Indian? Or did they speak

English to you, too?

?: MOst of our parents spoke Indian. Like, right now, you probably couldn't get two

words of English out of my mother. But most of them, like this lady in there, they

all pretty well speak English. But they don't when other kids are around. But

if she had to, she could probably say anything you wanted to know.

?: I couldn't sit down and talk to ohe of them right now.

Q: Is that right?

?: No, I couldn't carry on a conversation.

Q: Do you understand it?

?: Yes,. I understand every word they way.

Q: You understand it perfectly don't you?

?: Oh, yes. Well, I wouldn't say perfect; I can understand them fairly well.

Q: What's your dad do? To make a living?

?: I don't really know.

Q: Did he hunt, fish?

?: I assume he did. But my daddy passed away; I never did see him because I always
lived with my mother s in I was about 12, 13 years old. but other than that,

I was, Iguess, like you say, my mother's boy.

Q: Well, all Creeks are supposed to be, aren't they?

?: Yes.

Q: Your mother's clan.

?: We was all (?) raised right there in that hammock.

Q: Is that right? Right there Is any of them living there now?

?: No. Right -whre the highest tree is.

?: Well, on the inside. It's dry over on the other side. But, me, since they all

moved out over there in them houses, my mother lives inthe first house, on the

right going into that circle.

Q; Well ho- =any families would have been living there?

?: About 4 or 5 families lived right there.

Q: There goes that bus driver again. Is she married?

?: No.

Q: So, no one is living-Tn that hammock over there anymore?

?: No, they're not.

Q: That's real interesting. When you al 1 were little, were they trying to keep

the old ways, when you were small? Did they tell you the old ways, the stories?


?: They might have. Of course, when we was living over there, I don't think that

interested us any. Now, every now and then they would tell you some old tale that

they used to do long ago, that's been handed down things of this nature. But

as far as myself and Joe here, I don't think that ever enthused us too much -

what they did years ago. We wanted to know what was coming up ahead of us more

so than looking back and see what was going on behind.

Q: Would you call you guys progressive Indians?

?: Right.

Q: Now, the other group would be called conservative. Is there a conservative bunch

out here?

?: Oh, I would think so. I think most of these people out here would be called


?: Some of these older boys they been places. These older people, they hardly ever

go anywhere.

Q: Do the older men, like in their 50, 60, or 70's, do they try to keep the old way?

With the Green Corn?

?: Yes, i imagine that that's the only ones that does.

?: Well, not all of them. A lot of them became Christians and they kind of frwwn on

that. And then again,.like the middle-aged people, I would more or less say,

understand both sides of this thing here are being out in the open with the white

people and are now trying to cmme back in where they used to do long many years ago.

And I think they're coming back a little bit stronger this year. Well, like last

year I went to their Green Corn Dance, no, I didn't, but they was going to have to

move and they had another dance. But I understand they had a crowd there, more so

than they been having for the last 4 or 5 years. And Frank, he's our medicine man

here, he was telling me that he thought this was a change again. He said it's not

really a change; it's a cycle that people tends to go one way a while and as soon

as they understand what's happening, why, then they'll come back to the old.

?: Well, let me tell you about these folks in back

?: You know, we take a drink or two once in a while and we go to them squaredances

and all. And all these people out here, they wouldn't let their boys the same

age as us they thought we was bad, you know. They wouldn't let them go off

with us nowhere and they all went to church and all that. Now, hell, they're

worse then we ever was, ain't they?

Q: And when you were younger you raised a lot more hell?

?: Yes, but we don't do it anymore.

Q: That's the way we were raised.

?: But these other guys, they kept them under their wings all the time and boy, when

they got loose, damn, if they didn't go crazy.

?: They come unwound.

Q: The Oklahoma Creeks and Cherokees, Seminoles have pretty much a daily ritual that

they follow with regard to their old religion. Do they still have any, do they

offer the sacrifice down here blood, to the first fire? do you know if they

still do that or not?

?: I don't think so, no. They never have.

Q: They used to kill a rooster down there where we want.

?: Do you get a lot of blood out of roosters?

Q: I don't know.

?: Well, I think cur sacrifice was different from yours if that's the case because

we never sacrificed. Well, they have another dance they call the hunting dance that

I guess you might say they've abandoned now. I don't know why, they just quit all

together. It took two weeks.

Q: A hunting dance. Oh, I never heard of that. It wasn't called a ribbon dance?

?: They called it a hunting dance.

?: The menfolks danced all night and the next morning they had to get up early they

had to bring something in. Squirrel, anything they had to bring it in.

?: Well, how it started was, they had a partner, all men, they'd go out and dance and

?: the women partnered up with whoever, I guess, theywanted to partner up with. And

from that moment on, they got to be partners every dance they danced he could

dance with nobody but her for the next two weeks. Really it's only about a week

because the next week they hunt. While he's off hunting, his partner, she should

be cooking biscuits or some kind of bread to exchange w thxwha rm ax when he

brought back whatever it is he's bringing back. And I guess this is during the

fall somewhere in September, October, somewhere. But I remember when I was a

kid they had one over here.

Q: WEll, what year was that? .Can you remember?

?: Would you believe about '50, '51.

Q: OK, now, whereabouts did they have it over here?

?: Way back in back.

Q: On the reservation, on the back part?

?: Well, it's not in the back part, the central part

Q: So that' s the last hunt dance you all remember?

?: Yes.

Q: You all don't have the baby-naming ceremony?

?: They have them at the Green Corn dance. Not baby-naming, they call it from boy

to manhood, I guess.

Q: 172: do they do on that down here?

?: That's been so long ago, I don't know. It's a ceremonial thing. I think they do

that right before they dancing even starts, they do that. They change the name is

what they really do.

Q: A man to a boy?

?: Yes, I think when he gets to about 10 or 11 years old, they change his name.

Q: They don't scratch him again, do they?

?: WEll, no, that would be a little later on. They get that, too.

Q: Well, how old are. they when they scratch them that second time?

?: Well, there's not really no second time. They scratch you if you're crawling.

?: Some kid, if he's not walking, you know, they may just scratch him on the arm.

But if he's walking like her, they may scratch him a couple times on the arm,

on the forearm and on your leg here, on your calves, and on-your back.

Q: Were you all both scratched?

?: Like I told you while ago, I jgot scared. So I don't think you're going to see it

on me.

Q: Were you scratched?

?: Yes, a bunch of times. I used to go back for seconds.

?; Not me, I held back from that first.

Q: Would it give you more strength?

?: No, it was supposed to get the bad blood out of you.

?: Kind of purify you.

?: I guess I thought jI had more than anybody else.

?: That guy that pulled up there while ago and got out of the car? I've seen him go

back three or four times. Harold Jones.

?: His brotherowns the store here. I've seen him go back too. They just looked

like hamburgers and they just stand there and holler. Boy, you can hear it rip, too.

That needle goes in about that far! This right here ain't so bad but right back

there boy tha gets you. They take needles, about 4 or 5 of them, and they jab

it through till it sticks out.

Q: Now, would the older men do this?

?: Every mal7. Like I say, it's got to be your uncle on -

Q: On your mother's side?

?: I don't really know. But there's relationship in there somewhere. It depends on

who you carry it to. You can't carry it to your immediate kin; it has to be some

distant kin.

Q: And they use the scratching for punishment, too?

?: Like you said, they sacrificed a chicken they sacrificed blood. More or less

purifying yourself.

Q: Getting the bad blood out. Did you ever hear about them, down further south, they

had the practice of what they called 'putting people in the hole'. You all never

heard of that around here?

?: No. Like I say, there could have been a lot of things that been done. A lot

of these old people, they're just dyingjto tell you what you want to know but

if nobody shows any interest, they're got going to just come out and tell you

But if you show some interest and talk to them, most of them will tell you every-

thing you want to know.

Q: What about the cures? The medicine men around here they're still operating?

?: Yes, they operate real well. In fact, some of these people would rather go to

the medicine doctors than they would commercial doctors.

Q: What about you two guys?

?: It's immaterial to me. I'll go to anybody that will cure me for what ails me.

?: I haven't been to one in a long time.

Q: If there's something wrong with you, they go out and get the herbs. Don't they

still do that? Blow on you?

?: Yes.

Q: Can you remember any cures that they pulled on you?

?: I don't really know. I couldn't say, I went to a doctor one time. He said I

had a bleeding ulcer and so this guy from Oklahoma came down and they said he

was a doctor. So I went to him and he must have fixe,d me up. I don't really

believe that I had a bleeding ulcer.

Q: But this was a white doctor that told you.

?: Well, he said I had an ulcer, he thought.

Q: And then this Indian from Oklahoma came, an Oklahoma Seminole.

?: Right. He came down and he was curing everybody.

Q: What did he do to you? Can you remember?

?: He gave me some-herbs and stuff to take.

Q: Do they blow on them around here like they do up where we're from?

?: Right.

?: That boy over their, his father was from Oklahoma.

?: That's that button man I was tellin you about. He got killed over here

about 3 or 4 years ago, now. His daddy was from Oklahoma. He married one of

my aunts.

Q: T hat's what interests me. How do you all bury around here?

?: I think they used to bury them yhu know, this is one of the sacred things, also.

And just from what I can gather, they take all his belongings with him and they

put him inside a hammock or whatever, an out of the way place and fix it where

nothing can get into him and that was it.

Q: Put all his belongings in there.

?: Right.

Q: You all have a cemetery now?

?: We go to a conventional cemetery.

Q: Where is it around here?

?: It's at Ortuna (?), about 25 miles from here.

?: We used to have one down here about three miles, had that a long time. I think

it got to where it stayed so wet.

Q: Did they have any chants or did they have any like some of the people where we

come from each Indian comes by and says good-by?

?: I don't thi-k hhey done it here. In fact, nobody was able to go to the funeral,

just the mediate family, that was all.

Q: Is that right? Just the immediate family.

?: But here lately, I think what they just do, when they bury him, they just take

a handful of dirt and throw it in there.

Q: Each Indian does?

?: Yes.

Q: Doesn't say anything?

?: No, just good-bye or something, I don't know. That Lonnie Buck we was talking

about while ago, they sent him back to Oklahoma.

?: They had a bucket of dirt at the funeral home. That was supposed to go with him.

Q: I guess a lot of these people are still superstitious around here?

?: All of them.

?: They are scared of HUnka (?)

Q: Hunka?

?: Boogey man.

Q: What's he look like? I never heard of this one.

?: I don't think nobody ever saw him. I been a hunting him and I never have saw


?: That's what they tell their kids

and said "You better look out. Hunka's going to get you."

Q: And that translates out into boogey man or something. What's he supposed to look

like? Is he.white?

?: He's a ghost. What do ghost's look like?

Q: Nothing..

?; will, that's the same with Hunka. He's a ghost. Like you say, "Good Morning."

vhat's a good morning look like?

Q: These Indians always got questions you can't answer. Well, what about death. Do

they think that the spirits hang around?

?: Well, evidently they must, because the immediate family doesn't move around for

four days. Yes, it's a mourning period or something of this nature. But they

keep pretty well quiet for four days particular the immediate family. Now, as

far as other s are concerned, it's just another day. Because I remember them

telling me when I was a kid not to be going off nowhere by yourself. Keep some-

body with you at all times.

Q: Is that right?

?: So I would assume that that was the reason.

Q: We were talking to an old man and he told us the other day that your brothers

and sisters always came back and the ghost was always around you. The Hunka

or whatever you all call it, was your brother's and sisters. Have you ever

heard that:the spirits was you kinfolk that came back trying to get you to

go back in the land with them?

?: I've heard something like that. It was sort of that a way.

Q: How many people live out here at the Brighton, this immediate area right in here?

?: .300, I guess, kids and all.

Q: How many of them are Christians would you say, that go to the Baptist Church


?: I would imagine about 300.

?: They say they are but I know about 50 of them -well, I ain't going to say he's

not a'CHRIStian 'cause I don't know. He may be at heart and still not show it

on the outside.

?; Well, I do k ~c a man that's been going to church ever since they built it and

I've heard hi= say the prayer and everything else. I found out I never knew

he drank. 1 was sitting in a little old down there one day, last year,

I guess. Ea came in and sat down by me. I was sitting there drinking a beer and

I looked =z i- and said, "You want one?" He said yes. "What do you want?"

Ee said, "Busch." I bought him a beer and he sat there and in two big swallers

it was gone. "WE'll see you." and he left. His brother told me

Q: He's supposed to be a Christian.

?: Yes, that's right. I imagine there's a lot of people back here that way. They

go and hide it.

Q: Well, do they say the prayers in Seminole, in INdian?

?: Yes.

Q: When the leader spole down at church, did he speek Creek, Indian?

?: No.

?: Sometimes he'll read the Bible in Indian and he'd explain in English.

?: Who ever is there, you know. If they had some non-speaking Indian, why he'd

repeat it in English.

Q: Isn't there any men around still teaching the old Indian religion fire and


?: If they are, they are keeping.it a secret.

Q: You never were taught it?

?: No.

Q: Out where we come from, they still have a lot of the Indian religion. But the

Baptists seem to have made a lot of inroads in on them. WEll, does he preach?

Did preach against the fire? Talk against -the stomp dance?

?: I'don't know. I couldn't tell you. I don't know that I've ever even heard his

sermon. If I did, he was at my house.

Q: Oh, he comes by your house trying to get you to come?

?: No, ,I told them all that I was a lost cause. No need for them wasting their

time; go to somebody else.

?: Wasn't you baptized?

?: Yes.

3: 2re would they baptize you around here?

?: There's a couple of pits back there.

Q: Did they take you all the way under?

?: I think they do, yes, because .1 was baptized in the River. In the

Carolinas. That was many years ago.

?: I guess every kid out here has been baptized. Most of them. I never was.

They couldn't hold me down long enough.

Q: So there isn't hardly very much of the old Indian religion left out here.

?: Not the old way. I think most of them pretty well practice -

?: You was talking while ago, did Mr. preach against the stomp dance?

I imagine he did because most everybody that went to the'stomp dances,

they all drank. All the people that drink, they all went. They danced and

they drank. It was one hell of a big party, is what it was. Only thing

I could ever get out of it.

Q: Who is the leader now? Do they have a caller? Who is the caller around here?

?: I don't know who it is.

Q: Is he from around here?

?: Frank was the medicine man. Now, I don't know who the caller is.

?: Barfield?

Q: What's his first name?

?: Barfield. Barfield Jones.

Q: They don't have a medicine bundle up here?

?: Frank has it.

Q: Do they let you see the medicine bundle or is that a secret?

?: JI don't really know. I have never asked to see it so'I couldn't really tell


Q: Is that where they keep the secrets to the healing?

?: No, I dnr't think so. This is another thing. When the medicine man cures some-

body, he used herbs and what have you. And of course just bundle it the same

;,y. I '-;-= heard them talk of a bundle. 'Cause I've heard Frank say a couple

of times that he had to move that. They dance in the same place, they don't

dance on the reservation. They dance about 5 miles from here.

Q: Why don't they dance on the reservation.

?: They said they didn't want them dancing on the reservation. At one time.

Q: You mean the white people did?

.: Right. And I told them, "Why, I don't see why not. This land belongs to us.

?: We can do whatever we want to do with it." He said he had his medicine thing over

there and he'd rather keep it over there. Keep the people from prying around,

you know, and finding itt. So he'd rather keep it over there.

Q: He keeps it hid.

?: Right.

Q: They keep the medicine bundle hid out somewhere.

?: And when they moved the dance there, he moved it off. So he said when they moved

it, they had to dance one more time before they moved it so that's the reason

they danced on off season deal there.

Q: So they could move the bundle.

?: So that's when I went out there.

Q: Does he bring the bundle out and show it at the Green Corn Dance?

?: I don't know. I would assume that if you wanted to see it, you could ask and

they'd let you see it. But he may not even do that. I don't know.

Q: Does Frank "live around here?

?: Yes, he lives in the fifth house. On the circle, on the left side.

Q: Does he speak English?

?: Yes.

?; He's got two houses.

Q: He does?

?: A government house and he's got his own house.

Q: -Yo, what's he called? Is he called a medicine man?

?: Yes, I think most people: calls him that.

Q: What would you call him in Creek, in Seminole? What word would you call him?

?: I don't really know. I guess you would call him the ; well, I don't know what

you'd call him.

Q: You all don't use the term micco anymore, do you? You don't refer to anybody as

your micco?

?: No, although we got some miccos here. WEll, we got a Hwward Micco.

?: We've got a Charlie Micco. In fact, Frank Shore is Charlie Micco's brother.

Or was. But he passed away. He had five brothers and two sisters. They

all had different names. All four of those boys had different names. Different

las names.

Q: How did that come about?

?: Well, I think back then, whenever they heard a name or something they liked, well

they'd rather be called that instead of you know, something else.

?: Frank Shore got his when he was a captain on a lake out here. That's what I heard.

Q: And he took the name Shore.

?: He was Captain Shore. There's a lake out here and they used to fish; that's where

he got his name.

Q: What were the other last names?

?: One of them was Hall, Oscar Hall. Sam Jones.

Q.: That's a big Creek name up where we come from, JOnes.

?: Yes, I would think that they might have been called Jones to begin with.

Q: That's an old Seminole name.

?: It might have been Micco. That's another one.

?; Shore, MIcco, Eall, Jones.

Q: Did the Seminole boys ever have a hero, a Seminole hero, like Osceola or

Billy 3:-Les? Were you all aware that there was a great hero of the Seminole tribe

at one time?

?: No, it was j3st whoever they picked out as their hero; that was about it. Nobody

ever idolized Bowlegs or Osceola.

Q: When you were young they didn't tell you about them? Did they talk to you about

the Trail of Tears or anything?

?: No, not really. I've heard some tales of it but nothing that I already knew.

Q: Well, now, you said you were in the Army. Do most of the Seminole boys your age

go into the military?

?: Yes, I think so. If they are called, most of them go. They don't burn their

draft cards or dodge the draft. I think most of them go.

Q: And they're proud to serve?. Would you say that?

?: Not me. I dodged the draft.

?: No, I think it's just like anything else. You can either make it hard on your-

self most of them take the easy way.

?: I never registered for the draft.

Q: Oh, you didn't? Nobody ever came to get you or anything?

?: What it was, see, you didn't have to. None of us had to then. But now they

have to. Back when I was 18, you didn't have to.

?: Well, I talked to the man from Washington. And he said it is a law but they never

have really enforced it on the Indians. But they say that they have to register

now.but if they come in late, it wouldn't be hard on them. I t is actually a law

that they have to register 'cause I talked to him myself. Betty Mae was trying

to keep her boy out and, of course, I got a brother that was here while ago

and he was asking me and I told him i didn't think he had to register. And the

subject came up so we chased it down a little further and Betty Mae called

Washington -

Q: That's Betty Mae, head of the tribe?

?: Yes. She said she had talked to the man and the man had told her that they didn't

have to register. I told her, "No, sir, you better call that man again and verify

_hat or either get a written statement to that effect otherwise it's no good. It's

no good just to hear it on the jhone. You better get him to write you a letter."

So she called back and he told me that that wasn't what he had told her. He had

told her-that it is a law but it hasn't been enforced like it should and they're

not enforcing it that strong and that they do have to register. And if they registerE

late, well, this was something that they didn't really enforce either. So they


Q: What year did you go into the service?

?: '48.

Q: Where did they station you?

?: New Mexico.

Q: I bet that was quite a change for you.

?: I expected worse.

Q: Had you had much white contact when you went into the service?

?: Yes JOe and I didn't live there too much. We'd come off and on. We stayed

in town the biggest part of the time. So I was pretty well-acquainted and

expected worse of everything, everybody.

?: That's when we was still having rodeos down there.

?: Yes, we'd probably still be having them there now if I hadn't left. But I

enjoyed my two years.

Q: Oh, you enjoyed it?

?: Oh, yes. Like I say, it's just what you make of it. You can make it easy on

yourself or hard on yourself. I've seen boys make it hard on themself.

Q: Did they ever kid you because you were an Indian, friends or anybody?

Did they have a nickname for you?

?: Well, when I got up there there was a lot of other Indians up there. I don't think

most of those guys even looked at me as an Indian; there was a lot of other guys

up there that was Indians and they more or less called them chiefs or something

like that. I met a lot of boys up there from Oklahoma.

Q: Yes, they have a lot of parades when the Indians come home there. Downtown, you

know. The Indian families will get together and put them on a convertible.

Have you ever heard anything about the Seminoles in Oklahoma striking a lot of

oil? ON their land?

?: Yes, many years ago I heard that.

Q: Yes, that was true. A lot of them did.

?: And then they wanted to take it away from them again after they struck oil.

Q: Yes, they did.

?: This guy, Lonnie Buck, I was talking about. He had a lot.

?: He still got land up. there.

Q: I wondered if you all were Seminoles and that land up there was given to Seminoles

and Creeks, didn't you all get an allotment? Let's say your grandparents?

Why didn't they get 160 acres? I wonder why that is.

?I I don't know. We're in a kind of ticklish situation here right now. These INdians

here have already sued the government for 12 million dollars for this land here

that they took away from them.

Q: I thought you all won a judgement last year?

?: Yes, they awarded us 12.8 but the PResident never signed the bill so it's not

effective yet. But, to get back to your question, to add on to some more, we

had another piece of property that was taken away from us and they said that

they had paid 2 million dollars for this land that they had bought in Oklahoma.

So that this was kind of offsetting one on the other So they were just going

to let this one ride. We didn't go along with that.

Q: So you didn't get any of the advantages of that property.

?: We should; I don't know why we haven't got any of that. Why is it we didn't get

none of that land in Oklahoma like them other cats did?

?: We wasn't there, was we?

?: Eow come they want some of ours when we get ours?

Q: I'm ~ e Gregory.

T: Howard Tommie.

Q: What's you name?

SJ: Sanlo (?) JOhns.

Q: And what's yours?

J: Joe.

Q: NOw, he's wearing one of them -

SJ: He's wearing one of them lazy man's shirts.

Q: Why do you call it a lazy man's shirt?

J: It's a 11 pressed up and pretty, ain't it?

SJ: You can tell who does the work around here. He must do a little bit more than

you do.

Q: Well, see, I'm a Cherokee and we get more money. He's Osage and they don't get

as much as the Cherokee did.

J: He worries a lot.

Q: Oh, he's losing his hair?

SJ: No, he ain't losing his hair.

Q: HOw come Indians never go bald? I never seen a bald Indian.

?: I don't know, they don't worry.

Q: So, you're suing for more money now.

SJ: Well, I assume we are. Aren't we sueing for that 2 million that they had offset

for that bunch in Oklahoma?

Q: We got a payment in the early 60's on our tribe and it only turned out to be

$219 each so thes were quite disappointed.

J: What were they expecting?

Q: Well, I think a lot of the people I know wanted about 2 or 3 thousand. It came

out they divided it up.

T: Oh, yes, well, Iwhen you divide it up -

Q: Yes, but, there's a lot fewer Seminoles than there are Cherokees. YOu all ought to

T: 1600 (?) apiece.

Q: That's pretty good.

SJ: I don't think so. I'd rather have the land back.

Q: You're right. You w6n't get it now.

SJ: Oh, no, you won't ever get it.

J: I'd like to have right downtown Miami, Miami Beach. Fountainbleu.

Q: Well, do any of the INdians ever go into Miami, to the Fountainbleu?

SJ: I don't know. Do you, Howard. Howard's the only one I know that can get

around like that.

Q: You go into town?

T: Yes, I just got back from Tampa. Had some business there.

SJ: Yes, he's an NYC co-ordinator. Director or something like that. What is your title?

T: Director of the Neighborhood Youth Corps.

SJ: That's those cards I'll sign.

Q: lWhat is it whites and blacks and Indians and everybody put together?

T: Yes, that's the new stuff coming out.

Q: Do you ever have any trouble; do those blacks come over and try to start any trouble


?: Yes, they came in here and robbed this place one time. Of course, this was going

to happen and I had already warned the gjeople, "You all keep that finger in that

in the key 'cause you're going to get robbed." Same day he come in here

and-took the money and left. But they caught him.

End Jf Tape 2, Side.

Tape 2, Side 2

Q: What about the boys out here? Do you have any trouble with robbing each other?

Breaking into houses out here?

SJ: I don't really know.

J: We must not. Because we got a sheriff and a deputy out here and they ain't never

arrested anyone.

Q: Out here? Are they Creek?

J: Yes. They're Indian.

Q: Who pays their salaries?

J: I think the county pays some and the tribe pays some. And the state. I think

they all got a hand in it.

Q: So they don't ever arrest anybody out here?

?: They're all good boys.

SJ: Well, you know, little things, you can work it out yourself. NO use advertising

you got some bad Indians out here. One bad Indian spoils the whole bunch.

Like I said about one drunk Indian, they say, "Oh, the whole damn bunch of

Indians out thare are drunks." One white man gets drunk in town and raises

hell, nobody pays any attention to that. But one Indian does that, and the

whole bunch of the Tribe is drunks.

Q: Howard, whers- do you live now?

T: HOllywood.

Q: Do you live on the reservation down there?

;: W got some ycung bucks down there that needs to be taken care of.

Q: Have they ever thrown Indians in MoreHaven or the other jail over there?

J: Yes, I think so. They caught several I say caught several, when they get out

of line, they arrest them.

Q: But you try to work it out first. Like If someone broke in and stole something -

SJ: I'd want him to go to jail first and then I'd work it out later.

SJ: I'd assume that like I say, we got a sheriff and a deputy here and I haven't heard

of anybody stealing anything or getting away with anything, so I assume everybody's

64 ,

SJ: good. If everybody's that good, we don't need a sheriff and a deputy.

J: The only time the boys get in trouble is when they go to town or so.athing

and get drunk.

Q: Do you think the whites ever rough.them up any in the jail down there.

SJ: No.

Q: They treat them all right.

SJ; If they do, they probably deserve it. But I don't know. I couldn't say for sure

because I don't know how they work it.

J: One time You take a drunk, when he's drunk he can't

hardly move. But I laid for him one time when I heard

about it; I.was living over yonder then.

But I think he pulled it on Eddie, Eddie Shore

Q: Is he Indian?

T: Yes. He's the secretary-treasurer's brother.

Q: How you doing? Jack.Gregory. This is Dr. Strickland. We're out here for the

University of Florida taking some Oral stories on Seminoles and Creeks so we

stopped here today.

SJr They hit the jack-pot right here.

Q: 'e got a bock cut of this guy. Can you talk to us? You got a little time to

talk to us? We're just talking about anything. We work like you guys like

the Florida Extension out here. Now what's you job out here now?

?: Deputy and representative. Tribal and that of Brighton community.

Q: Now, they were telling me while ago, they weren't real clear about this you all

got awarded how much last year now? ON that settlement? That you didn't take?

?: A little over 12 million.

Q: And how much are you sueing for?

?: 42 million. A little more than that but I don't know how much it is.

Q: I'm Cherokee from Oklahoma, Muskogee and I was telling them when we got awarded

ours, we got $214 each is all. But now, you all's would break down a lot

higher, wouldn't it? Do you think you have a chance of winning the case -

42 million?

?: I don't think so, no. About 12 million

Q: How often do you all meet? Do you call it a council or what do you call it?

?: Every other month

Q: The Board meets every month?

?: In between we switch

Q: These guys here are saying that you handle most of the problems out here?

?: Don't be telling them things like that.

Q: What's the bigge; problem you have with them?

?: You mean the young people?

Q: Yes.

?: Drinking and staying out of school...

Q: Ci, you're kind of the truant officer, too?

?: No, we got one from Morehaven school. She comes over here. She tells me how

-any people are missing.

Q: Now, how did you get elected representative here?

?: I had to run.

Q: How long are you appointed for?

?: Two years. This May I'll have to run again.

Q: Are you going to run again? Do you like the job?


Q: Do you have to drive down here from HOllywood?


Q: Now, do you live here at this community, at Brighton?

?: I.live on the circle.

Q: Where you born here?

?: Yes

Q: Are you employed by the county or by the jTribe?

?: I'm employed by the county and jpaid by the Tribe.

Q: There's two law men out here is that right?


He was but he's off right now.

SJ: jI get to wear the badge once in a while.

Q: $id you ever try to arrest one of these guys?

?: No, not these guys.

I've only gotten one Indian boy.

0: .What did you get him for?

?: Drunk.

Q: Ta-t did .:.. do with him?


Q: Oh, they won't complain. What did you do? Take him home?


Q: So they're not scratching around here for punishment anymore? If you do something


?: NO.

?: They may do it individually at their own homes.

Q: What do the people think about him being the sheriff out here?

?: They don't like it.

Q: Indian fuzz.

SJ: Everybody here is too closely related. I told you there was about 300 head

here that's counting cats and dogs and all. So you can't say he's a sorry

so and so because you may be talking to his brother-in-law.

?: Everybody is kin to one another in some way.

J; Like if he was having some trouble out here with some people, you know, he could

call on us and we'd be glad to help him' That's the way they work things out


Q: That's good. That's real good.

SJ: Just don't come to my house at three o'clock in the morning.

Yes, you all are going to miss it if you don't come down there Saturday.

Q: We're going down there. That's where we're going.

SJ: You better buy you one of them Indian jackets. I know where you can get one of

them real cheap.

Q: Where?

SJ: Right over a= my house. $75.00. No, I was kidding. I don't know, they'll

probably have some. They don't have none at the store?

Q: No, she said she's going to give them to the boy. She's got a real good one in

there; she's going to let him wear it. We got some in Oklahoma Indians down here,


J: My mother can whip one up in about a day and a half. She's made three of them.

SJ: Howard's mother-in-law made one for me the other day; not for me, but for a

fellow. Fifty smackers. And I took it to that man and he tried it on and he

said, "The sleeve's a little long. Thank you." I told him, "That's the way I

like to do business." 'Cause he ordered it, see. He said he wanted a size 16

with a 33 inch sleeve.


SJ: All right, sir. You just name the date. I got the beef hanging in the cooler

right now.

Q: We're trying to get something out of these guys on the Green Corn but they say

it's not much around here anymore.


Q: Did you use to go?

?: Yes.

Q: You don't go anymore?

?: No.

Q: When's the last time you been?

?: Maybe ten years ago.

SJ: I been to one more recent than that.

Q: You guys are more white down here than we are up there Indian. You all need to

come up to Oklahoma and see what the Indians are like.


Q:. Did you get scratched too?

?: Yes.

Q: You got any of the marks left on you?

?: That's why I quit.

: Indian cczedlz s. You guys need to be on television. Do any of the Indians ou

here go down to Dania much? Settle down in there?

SJ: Like Howard done. He got tired of working so he went down there. They come and

go. Well, you know, it's broader area down there where a fellow can get a job.

With decent pay. Around here you have to scratch with the dogs here. Do without.

So that's the reason I told you, see how dirty we are here. There comes our

other representative. The big honcho.



SJ: See, this was a tribe-owned store until eventually they just worked it up to

give it to an individual. I mean, not give it, an individual bought this


T: How long are you going to be down?

Q: We're going to be down probably through Sunday.

J: We're going to have a big here at More Haven.

SJ: Yes, a week from Saturday they're going to have a big blow-out. That's when you

should really be down because they'll have all their fIndians from here, Holly=

wood, Big Cypress, all four reservations, we'll have some come from the Trail,

they'll be up here.

Q: What's going to happen up here?

J: We're going to have a rodeo. Let him look at that thing here. this is the

newest edition. This is an annual deal. Every year they put this thing on.

SJ: The Indians have never participated here real much until recently; they just

started this so we got four hours (?)

Q: How do you pro-ounoce that now?


0:- What does tat mean? Translate out?

?: Bass Day.

Q: Look there, -hey got an Indian there in a big boat.

?: They just done that here recently to make us feel good.

Q: What are the Indians going to do this year up there?

?: At More Haven?

Q: MOee Haven, right.


Q: Oh, an Indian fashion show. Seminole styles.

?: Yes, and they have Green Corn Dance competition.

Q: Oh, Green Corn Dance competition.


SJ: They're going to have Calhoun Twins (?), did you see that?

Q: Singing?

SJ: Yodeling. They may put on a show there for us (?)

Now.there's the two cats you want to see about the Green Corn Dance. They

can tell you thn whole thing or nothing at all. LIKe I said before, a lot

of people look at this thing as a religion and they don't just chat with any-



Q: What's their names now?

T: Barfield Jones and Ollie Jones.

J: The one that's getting out now owns the store.

sj; No, he don't own the store. His wife owns the store.

Q: Oh, his wife owns the store.

J: It's all in the family.

Q: What does he do? He works for the government? Well how does his wife own it?

Why do you say that?

T: JIf he works for the government, he can't be in business for himself

SJ: Ee also owns cattle here on the reservation. Talking about one of the rich ones,

ea's one of the rich men on the reservation.

Q: He holds the old way, huh?

J: All three of them guys out there, they all work down at Big Cy press. They do

something down there; I don't know what.

?: So you all come out of the University of Florida?

Q: Well, we come out of the University of West Florida at Pensacola but we're doing

this for the University of Florida.

Q: Are any of you guys going to ride in the rodeo? You gonna ride?

SJ: all around last year?

Q: He did? Hoss, huh? Got those old worn down furs on.

?: I got around but I didn't get all over.

Q: We want to meet you. Come here. Jack Gregory. This is Dr. Strickland.

M: Micco.

J: They want to take you in to lock you up.

Q: Are you one of the representatives, too?

M: Yes.

SJ: Come on now, be proud.

Q: Are you going down to Hollywood to the celebration there?

M: Wi~9cximx You mean this Saturday?

Q: Is that the big day down there, Saturday?

M: Yes.

SJ: They're going to eat on Saturday, that's why he's going then.

J: If they was going to eat Friday, he'd have been down there, too. And so would I.

M: Yes, I'll be down there about 12 o'clock.

Q: What are they going to serve?

M: I don't know. Maybe some barbeque chickens, I don't know what they going to have

SJ: I'll tell you what they going to have beef.

Q: Are they gztzing them from up hre?

J: Yes, we got them for them the other day.

T: I'm going to take them after dinner.

Q: Well, how will they cook them? Just on a big open pit?

T: YEs.

Q: And they'll just give it away like I was telling these guys they are giving

buffalo away up there where we are.

SJ: Yes, give them that address again so we can write them.


J: Next time we're going to have buffalo.

Q: They're giving buffalo to the tribes now. You guys, as representatives, could

send up there and they'll send you part of a buffalo free for your celebrations

out here.

SJ: I sure wish you guys would write for this damn buffalo.

Q: They gave the Cherokee a buffalo this year. Two years ago they gave the Choctaw

a buffalo.

T: JThe government does. Give it to an Indian tribe.

SJ: Well, we'll see what kind of a liar .that man is now. I be t you they'll probably

say they ain't never heard of it.

Q: OK, you'll see.

SJ: If we get them here, we may keep them here and try to cross-breed them with

these Herefords. I don't think they cross-breed, do they?

Q: I don't think so.

SJ: They tried it before and I don't think it ever worked.

Q: Hey now, what's your name?

OJ: Ollie Jones.

Q: Ollie? I'm Jack Gregory, Ollie. This is Dr. Strickland and we're up here trying

to get the story of the Seminoles. We're originally from Muskogee in Oklahoma

and we came down to see Reverand Crenshaw I knew him from Oklahoma but he's

gone. nad we're working for the University of ktceimxa Florida doing some

tape-recording of the Seminole history and these boys ar ound here have been

telling us you know a lot of Seminole history.

OJ: .I don't know.

Do you still go to the Green corn?


Are you a leader down there?

I lead some things.

Q: Can you call?

OJ: Yes, I do it a lot (?) We're going to Hollywood

Q: You are going to go over there, huh? You going to take your family down too?

OJ: worth $200.

Q: $200; that's good. Are you going to be the caller?

OJ: Yes.

Q: That's real good. We're going down there too. We're going to leave here at

night and be down there Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

OJ: Saturday and then come back.

Q: You all still have it up here in July?

OJ: Yes, at Hilolo.

Q: I understand you moved it off the reservation.

OJ: Yes, we moved it off but it's going to be on the highway this time.

Q: Where's your grounds up here? You have it up here off the reservation now?

OJ: Way up to Hilolo.

Q: do you all still make the black drink? At your dance?

OJ: Yes.

Q: And you give i to everybody that comes that wants to take it, right?

OJ: Yes.

0: Cleans out?


Q: How many are coming to you all's Green Corn now?

OJ: I don't know. Not too many.

Q: 50? 100?

OJ: About 200, something like that. Kids and all.

Q: do they have fires on the other reservations around here, too? Does Dania have

its Green Corn Dance, too?

OJ: Tamiami Trail. Do you know where Tamiami Trail is?

Q: Those are Miccosukees, aren't .they?

OJ: Yes

Q: Do they have the same kindof celebration you all do?

OJ: YEs.

Q: Do you still have your medicine men in here too?

OJ: Yes, he has a medicine man. We got one over there.

Q: You got one here, too?

OJ: Yes.

Q: Is he good? Can he cure good?

OJ: Yes, he do pretty good.

Q: They tell me you know some cures, too?

OJ: Yes.

Q: Who taught you the cures?

OJ: My daddy.

Q: Could your mother cure too? Or was it your daddy?

03: It was my daddy.

Q: Have you ever tried to work the cures on your children here?

OJ: Yes, sometimes/

Q: Do they work?

OJ: I don't know.

Q: Sometime they did and sometime they didn't? You working for the government now?

OJ: Yes, for a long ia.- About 17 years.

Q: Your wife runs the store here?

OJ: With my daughters.

Q: You got a son and a daughter both going to More Haven in the 12th grade over


OJ: YEs.. My daughter and my boy, too.

Q: They both do?

OJ: Ye s.




























They're going to finish school this year, this summer. I got four.more.

Oh, you got six?


Now, do you all still scratch them?

Yes. The boys. Any boys that's just a little baby.

Just when he's a little baby you scratch him?


Did the little one in there get scratched yet?

We're going to scratch him this time. He was too small last time.

What's that do? Take the bad blood out of him?


Has he got a name yet or when do you name him?

When they get old enough my boy Johnny.

What's that? About 10? 12?

YEs. About 10 or 11.

You give them a name?


Who gives them the name?

That's Bar=fil=d.'

Frank Barfield gi es them the name?


EnV does he set the name? Does he just make it up and give it to them?

He and his arandaddy used to be the name -

Name giver?


He gives them the names?

When the grandaddy they just picked it up.

He died a long time ago

Q: Oh, when a grandfather dies, he brings that name and gives it to one of

your kids?

OJ: Yes. Some people and the old people die and they

name them after them.

Q: Oh, he saves that name?

OJ: Yes.

Q: Can you get the younger people to come down to the fire?

OJ: YEs.

Q: You think they believe in it?

OJ: Yes.

Q: does all your children go to it too?

OJ: YEs.

Q: Now you all still.go by the old ways about not marrying in your clan, is that



Q: Now, you're tiger clan, right?

OJ: I'm Bird.

Q: And your wife is Tiger?

OJ: Yes.

Q: So your children have to marry out of the Tiger clan, Bird clan?

OJ: Yes, the Tiger clan and the clan, Bears and Winds.

Q: hy did yu aL1 nove the Fire off the reservation? Did the whites want you to

move it off?

OJ: No, we just

Q: Do you yourself go to a white doctor or do you go to an Indian doctor?

OJ: I go to a good doctor an Indian.

Q: They're better, aren't they?

OJ: YEs.

Q: How long have you had this place here?

OJ: Going on about two months.

Q: It's a nine store. And that's your wife and daughter running it?

OJ: YEs.

Q:. You got this from the tribe?

OJ: Yes. I bought itout.

Q: Were you born down here at Brighton, jtoo?

OJ: I was born at Hollibah (?)

I was raised down at Cow Creek.

Q: Can you remember when you were small were they using any of the boats then,

the dug-outs then?

OJ: Yes, I used pretty good at riding in them.

Q: Oh, you used to ride in them?

OJ: Later on they was gone.

Q: But when you were small you rode in the boats.

OJ: YEs.

Q: Where was that around?

OJ: Back in the Fort Pierce.

Q: Around Fort Pierce you rode in the boats. Were they the big long dug-outs or

were they e- lit-tle ones?


Q: did you ever help make one?

OJ: No.

Q: And they were all gone by the time you weee big?

OJ: YEs.

Q: Are all these boys here going to school now?

OJ: Yes

Q: Now, is that your bab y there? Now where will he be scratched next year at the



OJ: Right here.

Q: Right there on the top of his hands.

OJ: And on the foot.

Qt So you'll just scratch him on his feet and his hands?


Q: And later on you'll put them on the back? You'll put them down there too?

OJ: YEs, the whole thing.

Q: Scratch the whale thing. Well, we've had a good day out here- We talked to

everybody out here. Seminoles from Oklahoma we've got some mut down here.

They came down to bring some of the things they make and they're staying down

there. Well, I guess we better be going. We'll be seeing you down at Dania.

We arrived at the Brighton reservation in the afternoon of February 25th and

we found the Seminole trading post there called the Brighton trading post

and we went inside. We spoke to the elderly lady there at the counter and

asked her if she could help us out. She couldn't speak English. And there

was a younger girl in her late teens that came around and talked to us.
We asked her where Reverend ( break in tape ) was living and she told

us where his sister was living, Cathy Micco Carrie Micco. And about that

time the older Semiiole lady pulled a chart, like a seating chart at a baseball

g=e or at a play It was a cardboard chart about 10 by 14. And they had

drawn little squares for the government housing units down there and they had

two or three rows of them and on each little square they had written the name

of the family living there. And she counted six squares on the first row of

government houses on the right-hand side and she said that this was where the

Miccos lived. So we got in the car and went down there and this is the reason

that we're taping this now when we tried to do the interview, it was such a

valuable interview that we would retape it now because she would not speak over

the taperecorder. And we thought it was such great value that we went ahead

and we want to tell you what she said at the time. So Dr. Strickland will

tell you his part what he interpreted.

S: Well, we went to the door and she came to the door of the newly built federal

housing there, slowly, we knocked and she came to the door very slowly, opened

it up, was very reticent to speak. We introduced ourselves. She spoke on and

we asked her about her brother, the Reverend Micco and she said that he worked

down in Hollywood and was there and wouldn't be back normally until six o'clock

but he wouldn't be back tonight at all. He was going to stay on over. And

then she spole to us a little while longer. And we were out in the hot sun

and she then asked us to come into her house. We stepped in. It was quite

obviously new; she had just moved in. We asked her how she like it. and she

said well, it was nice but it got awful hot during the summer. It was really

hot in there. We asked her. and she said she like to live in a chickee, that

summers were better there. She didn't really know, she didn't feel at home in

this. So we asked her why she didn't build a chickee in back of it. She said

the government wouldn't let them build chickees, that that was where she really

wanted to i-ia but they wouldn't let her build one. And we explained to her

what our job was and what we were trying to do and she seemed to be most agreeable

about it. A- d then we asked her if we could bring a tape recorder in and she

would talk. And she shook her head and she pointed across the street and she

said that her :inf6lk lived over there that knew a'lot more about it and

for us to go over there. We asked her who lived over there and she says a girl

that she knew that was kin to her. And she said, yes, it was her niece. We

said, well, as much as you've told us about it, we'd like for you to record it.

And she said she wouldn't do it. So then we Aimnn decided to go ahead and keep

her talking about it and we asked her about the Green Corn and if she used to

go. And she said yes, she'd been to the Green Corn Dance, went to them every

year. She had a lot of fun and enjoyed them a great deal and that the drinking

Shad gotten so bad that she was afraid t o go down there anymore and that

there was some fighting and that they weren't like they were in the old days

and that that's w hy she was a little hesitant about going down anymore.

And we also observed that the house, quite different from most houses, was

immaculate. The floor was even polished and there wasn't any dirty dishes

sitting around and she kept the house perfectly clean. And of course we

commented about this and she appreciated the compliment. Another observation

that I made at the time was that she was wearing the traditional bright

typical Se'minole skirt but she had on just an ordinary blouse that a woman

would buy in a shop at any downtown store. And another observation that I

made of m most of the Seminole women here at Brighton was that none of them wore

brassieres and I commented to Dr. Strickland about this and he said that he

hadn't observed this but I was observant on those matters and I don't know that

it was common that they just didn't wear them or not. We also didn't

see any women nursing any children, the babies, and we saw some at that very

young age that they would have been nursing. But her hair was matted; it wasn't

combed and she wore no make-up and her person was very sloppy. And another

interesting thing that she seemed to be very proud of was that at the front

she had three solid gold teeth that gleamed like she just walked out of a gold

mine in Colorado. And her smile was big enough, obvious, that she was v ery

proud of those gold teeth. We asked her if her brother was the preacher there,

the reverend there, and she said, no, that he wasn't but that he filled in

sometimes and that they didn't have apreacher now because Reverend Lieder had

retired and gone back to Oklahoma. And I asked her where her brother had

learned to be a preacher and she told us some school that he had studied at.

At the time, I don't know what school it was that she spoke about. But she said

that they wanted to get a minister there but than they didn't have one and they'd

like to get one there full-time. And we went to the church twice today and both

time s we looked the grounds were perfectly well-kept. And there was one central

building there.with, what I guess would be several classrooms around where

they would probably teach the Sunday school. The classrooms were thatched

roof or what they would call chickees. And under each a chickee they had from

8 to 12 chairs which apparently was a classroom. Also there was a couple

of sheds that went with it, equipment sheds where they had equipment there.

And there was two living quarters there on the grounds of the church and neither

one of those were occupied. We knocked at the doors. All the grounds were

very well-kept. And of course, sleep ing there in fromt of the church steps

were two of the INdian dogs that always seem to hang around. We asked Carrie

the typical question about schooling and she seemed to be rather hesitant about

telling us but she said, well, it seemed to me, quite proudly, that she had

gone through two grades of school before she dropped out.

S When we left Carrie Micco's house we decided we'd go back to the store where

we had first stopped. And that was a Itcky decision to return to the store

which was a combination one pump Sinclair, I believe, or Texaco service station

and a general store. This was undoubtedly the community center. We went by

the federal g-veroent ope rated, built neighborhood community center, as such,

but there was no one there. It wasn't being used as a gathering place as they

are in scne areas. It was completely locked up. So when we went down to the

store we saw that almost everybody in the community during the course of the

afternoon cae in.Children came in to buy a bottle of pop, pick up some potato

H chips; men, women stopped in to get gasoline and to exchange gossip.

G: ABOUT one of the most interesting bits of lore that we did pick up was XMhan

when we asked them was what was the biggest selling item at the store and they

all jointly agreed awha that bread was the biggest selling item at the store.

We asked them later on in the interview if they made the fry bread amd they said

yes, they made fry bread when they didn't have bread. But she said that was by

far the biggest seller .and that candy and pop was probably the biggest seller

and we, of course, had found this true in most of the little INdian communities

across the nation.that this candy and pop was a big seller. All six or seven

of the family operated the cash register but I.never saw the mother who seemed

to be running the store run the cash register. That confusing bit about the

ownership of the store was that we were told that the mother ran the store and

not the father. We asked if the father didn't own it and very emphatically,

the man said no, the father didn't run that. This was a bit that we never did'

get quite clear about why the father didn't own the store which could go back

to the mother control of a lot of the things in the Seminole tribe. But when

word had spread around the reservation that we were here, that some white men

was talking to the INdians at the store, it was quite obvious that people

from all parts of the reservation were coming in. And wnk when they come up

the front, we would introduce ourselves to them and they weee very gregarious

about talking to us. Probably in the process of the day, we talked to roughly

20 people ranging in age from 8 years old up through their 60's. And they

didn't seem the least bit timid about talking to us. As a matter of fact, they

seemed to be very happy that we were there. They all shook hands with us, came

over and smiled at us and not one of them was sullen as we found in other tribes

that we have worked with. And I would say that of all the people that we have

worked tith, the Seminoles seemed to be about the happiest.

End of Tape 2, Side 2


Tape 3, Side 1

Interview with Josephine Youngblood, Jack Gregory interviewer

G: Does your mother speak English?

Y: No.

G: Where's your father today?

Y: He's working.

G: Where does he work?

Y: He works on the reservation.

G: On the reservation down at Hollywood?

Y: No, here. He works with the SEminole tribe; he works with them but he's working

around on these cattle pastures. He operates these water pumps that's out on

the pastures.

G: Did you go to school?

Y: Yes.

G: Where did you go?

Y: At Okeechohse.

G: Eow high in school did you go?

Y: I just waet thr~cgh the seventh grade.

G: Do you ha-e aZy brothers or sisters?

Y: Yes, I've go- four brothers and one sister.

G: Have you ever gone to the Green Corn dance around here?

Y: Well, I was raised around those things. I go every year.

G: Oh, you do. Still go?

Y: Yes.

G: Do your mama and daddy go, too?

Y: Yes.

G: Do you go to the church here, the Baptist church?

Y: Yes. My uncle was the one that started the church on the edge of the reservation.

And after he built it up he was sent down to Hollywood and he preaches down

there but somebody else, one of my other uncles, is preaching there now.

G: What was your uncles's name?

Y: Billy Osceola.

G: And what's your name?

Y: Josephine Youngblood.

G:. What clan do you all belong to?

Y: The Bird.

G: And what clan was your dad?

Y: He's the Wildcat or the Tiger they're the same. Or at least we consider that

the same clan or the same group.

G: Is that right? I didn't know that. Why did you quit school?

Y: Well, I just x quit school because, well, my parents had more kids than they could

afford to send to school and that's why three of us dropped out. And my younger

brother finished high school and went on to the Army and came back.

G: Oh, he's here now. What's his name?

Y: John Wayne (?)

G: Do many tourists come in here and buy these things from you all?

": Yes.

G: Ds your mother make these or do all of you work on them?

Y: '-We work on them together. I do the sewing and she does the

G: How did you jpick that up (static on tape)

Y: and I just picked it up. My mother did

sewing all her life

G: Do you all have a sewing machine?

Y: Yes.

G: Oh Vs, your mother recognized that word sewing machine.

G: How come you don't wear the skirt like your mother does?

Y: It's mostly because I got used to wearing this when I lived off the reservation

and when I got married I lived off the reservation.

G: Oh, you're married now?

Y: No, I was but not any more. So when I got used to wearing the other kind of

clothes I have them but I just don't wear them all the time.

G: Where did you live off the reservation?

Y: Well, I lived just about everywhere in the state.

G: In Florida? What were some of the towns you lived in?

Y: I lived in Bradenton and other places. We went down to Hollywood and Fort Lauder-


G: Did you marry an Indian, Seminole boy?

Y: No.

G: You married a white? Wh ere did you meet him?

Y: Well, I met him here. He worked on a ranch near the reservation.

Gt How long did 7ou stay married?

Y: Oh, about eight years.

G: =That's a liCg time. Where is he now?

Y: I don't kacw.

G: Is this vour brother here?

Y: Yes, that's y youngest brother.

G: ow old is h


G: How you doing? So you lived in Bradenton and after you and your husband separated

you came back here?

Y: Yes.

G: Do you have any children?

Y: Yes, I have four. They're all in school, though.

G: good.

G: They go to More Haven?

Y: Yes.

G: I guces you're going to make them stay in school, aren't you?

Y: Oh, yes. I'm going to make sure they finish at least high school.

G: Do any of the kids here go to college?

Y: Well, they do go but mostly they went through Lawrence, Kansas.

G: Haskell?

Y: Yes.

G: Well, we're from Muskogee. Have you ever heard of Sequoia? Used to send some

of the kids from here over there. Where I used to live, we taught a lot of

the Seminols over there.

Y: Yes, some of my cousins Static

Haskell and finished there and she's working at

in Hollywood and she works d own there.

G: Are you going down to the celebration in Hollywood?

Y: I don't know, .probably Static

G: Have you ever gone down before?

Y: YEs.

G: What do the young people your age do down there?


Y: everybody j8st gets together and talks

They have games and contests and everything else.

G: Does your mother go down?

Y: Yes.

G: Doss she enter any of the contests like traditional dress?

Y: I don't know. .She usually dous.

G: Has she ever won before?

Y: Yes, always first prize. She's got a lot of ribbons and trophies for her costumes.

we're all very proud of that, too.


Y: She's going to cook this swamp cabbage,; I don't know if you -ever heard of it.

She's going to cook that tomorrow

G: does your mother make (Static)

Y: YEs, she's making some right now that they used to make long time


G: Is that right? How do you fix it?


Y: first and then you grind it up and you have to grate it through

several times and you have to grind it two or three times before you get it to the

right size. And after that it's readyl

G: Do you like it?

Y: Oh, yes.

G: Yes, out where we come they drink sofkee, too, and the blue does your

mother ever make the blue like the Seminoles do out where we come from?

Y: What is that?

G: You take grapes and drop dough in them.

Y: No.

G: You all don't have grapes down here, do you?

Y: No. WE do have the wild grapes; we have a lot of it growing.

G: Do you do azytrhng with them?

Y: Yes, we pick it and make jelly or something out of it but that's about all we do

with it. S -aor use it for anything else. They do make bread but they just

use dough and water and mix it like you would a biscuit dough but they fry it in

deep grease, real hot, fry it on both sides, and they eat it. That's real pop ular.

But you can't har dly find many young girls trying to cook that now.

G: Is that right?

Y: Some of them don't know how to cook.

G: I bet you know how to cook, don't you?

Y: Oh, yes. A lot of other people that comes from somewhere else likes it and some

Y: don't like it. I guess everybody has different tastes. That's swamp cabbage over


G: Oh, yes. Stacks of it over there. How do you fix that? What do you do?

Y: Well,.you cut the top part off and you get down to the heart of it where it's

real tender and you slice them real thin and then you, well, most people boil it,

but to us, that's just killing the taste in it, but we usually sx -a use some

kind of grease in it and kind of fry it and sweeted it. It's real good. But

most other people boils it and puts milk in it, stuff like that and put meat in

it or something like that. They say it's good but I never have learned to like

it cooked like that.

G: NOw, this is the sleeping chickee over here?

Y: Yes.

G: What's this one used for right here?

Y: Oh, that's where we have our souvenirs. WE used to live there for a long time.

We lived in these new block houses over there = I don't know if you all have been

there we live over there now but we just come here every day.

G: We were over at the MIccos yesterday.- knew Reverend Lieder; he's from

Oklahoma. He came down here for a long time with you all, wasn't he?

Y: Yes, he was the one that married me and my husband.

G: And you were married in the church out here?

;Y Yes, the church out here at the edge of the reservation.

G: But your husband couldn't come live on the reservation?

Y: No.

G: Don't let white men come out here and live?

Y: No. The way they see it, they think-that men are the head of the family, house-

hold, so they figured that if they let the women that married other races come on

the reservation, that they would try to take over where they INdians -

G: That's right.

Y: So, that's why they wouldn't let him. But Indian boys will marry white girls and


Y: they bring them on the reservation and that's all right.

G: What clan would the children of an Indian man married to a white woman belong to?

You get your clan from your x mother, don't you?

Y: Well, that I nev-er have been able to figure out. I have asked about it but nobody

seems they consider them white people.

G: Do they consider your children white people?

Y: No, not mine.

G: WEll, now, your children, what clan can't they marry in?

Y: Well, they can't marry I mean, they can marry them.

They can't marry their own clan.

G: they can't marry their mother's clan.

Y: But even that is now not kept anymore.

G: Is that right?

Y: JWE11, it depends on how you was raised. Some of us, like my mother

the old rules

so when they keep telling you something like that over and over again it just sticks

in your mind and you just live by it.

What did yc-r -other think when you married this white man?

Well, they didn't approve of it but hhey didn't say too much about it. I guess

they figured they couldn't do too much to me and I just went ahead and got married.

What did your husband do?

He's a road construction worker. He operates heavy equipment or did.

When youwere little and you did something bad, how did you get punished?

I don't remember but I think that the only way were were punished is thatxxmr

we got spanked. But that was it. We weren't ever punished, you know, the white

people, if some child-woild do something wrong, he would be sent to his room or

something like that, we didn't have that.

You didn't have rooms.

No. not really. We were just spanked and talked to in a very hard way.



Y: What we did wrong. And when we shouldn't do it. But that was it. Mostly they

could talk to you and tell you about what happened to people that did wrong and

they would say it to you so many times that you were afraid to do it anyway. So

it just wasn't that bad. But nowadays, you know, everybody is just like everybody

else and nobody pays any.attention to their parents hardly anymore. And if some

do, well, they're all right, there's a lot more that are not then there is.

G: did your mother and father tell you some of the old stories?

Y: Oh, yes. We had this time in the evening when all of us went to bed at nighttime.

WE didn't have any electricity or television or anything like that so when we

went to bed at night we would always lay in bed while my mother or father told

us the story of the old days. You know, it's just like bedtime stories. But

these really happened, they claimed, they would tell you things like that

and you'd be scared and you wouldn't move and you'd fall asleep. And they used

to tell lots of it. But I couldn't tell my children that because they don't,

I think mostly, they don't understand half what I say in Indian because they

just speak English now.

G: Can you remember some of the stories your mother told you?

Y: Oh, yes.

G: What were some of them?

Y: Well, mostly it was stories about a rabbit and a lion. They ev en told me the

story about how the turtle got the way it's shell happened is that

LI don't re-mber how the story went, but they told me the story how the turtle

got it's shell like that. Because he was one time

Static his shell together, his shell was stuck together like that.

They used to tell us things like that.

G: What was the lion and the rabbit story?

Y: Well, I don't remember how that one went. Well, the rabbit used to tell a lot of

lies to the other people always get in trouble. And the other

animals always got in trouble because the rabbit would always tell a lie. He was

Y: known as the lying rabbit or the rabbit that fold lies. And after a while nobody

hardly believed what he said. It's just like that, what is that story the

boy that cried wolf or something like that.

G: When you were going to school did the kids out here have trouble making grades

as good as the white kids?

Y: Well, we did at first and from my experience when they sent me to school, I

guess I was about 7 years old, so instead of starting me at kindergarten or

first grade they just put me in the second grade and I had to start from there.

G: Did you speak much English?

Y: I don't remember if I ever spoke English but as far as I can remember I've been

speaking it ever since.

G: Where did you learn how to speak English? Do you remember?

Y: Probably around here from Mr. Boehmer that used to come aroudd.

G: did he have the school here?

Y: Yes, he had the day school.

G: Was he a good teacher/

Y: WEll, I guess he was but he just had too many students in the one room.


I think the more advance ones was the ones that was more advantaged than the

other ones because as I remember I didn't do anything when they sent me there.

I remember sitting there, I was very young, but I remember sitting at a desk

all day I-sr azd he never taught me anything. I never did anything all day.

I think the reason was that the more advance ones was the ones he was trying

to teach more. He figured as soon as we could get in public school

static The only good grades I made was in the subjects I liked;

subjects I didn't like-I just didn't do too much with.

G: Di d the kids like him?

Y: static Well, he was really a nice person but his wife was kind of strict.

G: Did they understand the Indian ways?

Y: static

I don't remember too much of it because I didn't go there too long before

I went to Okeechobee.

G: How did they decide to send you in to Okeechobee?

Y: I don't know how that came about. But when we did go we had to go all the way

up, about half way to Okeechobee. They had to drive us half way to Okeechobee

and the bus picked us up from there. And they wanted us to wear the clothes

like the other kids wore and we didn't have them. But they bought them for us.

G: Who bought them?

Y: I don't know who bought them.

G, Somebody in town?

Y: NO, I don't know. I remember getting the dress and things like that. We would

have to wear them every day but I remember coming home every day and I couldn't

wait to get home and change back into my other clothes. That's what I was used

to. After while, now I can't wear them every day.

G: Oh, you can't wear the dress like your mother?

Y: No. I've got some but I just wear them on special occasions like tomorrow or

sc=ething likEe hat. Other times I dress like this and that's what I'm used to

now, I guess.

G: Would you like to go back to the white towns again?

Y: Well, from the way living expenses are nowadays, I enjoy living where I am.

It's where I grew up, I guess, and I have my own home, too, so I don't care

too much to leave. Because my children always say, why don't we live in town.

It's just costs more to live in town than it does.

G: Well, they want to move in town?

Y: Yes. They would like to live in town but I couldn't afford to live in town.

It's just too much.

G: Your children don't speak Indian at all? How do they talk to their grandmother?

Y: They talk in English but she talks back in Indian and they understand it good.

They understand what's necessary for them to understand

Of course, my youngest one who is just three years oMd and he'Al pick up a word

every now and then and he'll say it and that's funny to him. But we think that's

pretty good because at Ri least he's saying something static

G: Do you try to tell them some of the stories?

Y: Well, I do but I can't sqay it exactly the way that it was told to me in Indian.

It's kind of hard to communicate in English k like that in a story like that.

Well, in the xB evening when we're eating supper or something like that


to me it was real when they were telling me. To them now its

just like a story book static

the difference is that when they was telling it to me, it was

really true and it really happened to me. But to my children, they don't really

think anything of it. It's like telling them the story of Cinderella, I guess.

G: When your children get sick, where do you take them?

Y: We have a clinTc out here that opens two days a week and I usually take mine

there but if they're really seriously sick or something like that, we have to

take them inzo Clueston to a private doctor there that's contracted to take

care of the x Indians.

G: Have you ever had any of your children there at Clueston?

Y: YEs.

G: Is he a good doctor?'--

Y: YEs, we have three of them in contract there but I just usually take mine to

one I've always been doing that and I have complete trust in him. Some of the

Indians don't have that. It's hard to believe it but some of them don't trust

the doctors and the people in the hospital.

G: Well, do you take them to the INdian doctors out here?

Y: WVll, some people do but I hardly ever do that myself or my children.

02 Your mother and Dad still do, don't they?

Y: Yes but if it was my children I usually take them to a medical doctor.

G: If your mother was sick would shelike to have an Indian doctor come, too?

Y: Yes, they usually do that but both sides don't like to do that. But still,

when a person's.sick, they snH usually do that. Doctors in town don't want

to treat a person while they're going to the Indian doctor and the Indian

doesn't want to treat the person while he goes to the medical doctor. It's

complicated like that .sometimes.

G: So, maybe we could ask your mother something about what we're trying to find

out about in the Green Corn. WE go to it up in Oklahoma and we want to see if

it's like ours. Do they still scratch the young boys?

Y: Yes. WEll, my husband didn't approve of it but I have always taken my children.

My parents hardly ever took me; my grandmother took me every t year and I went

with her. So, when I grew up;like that fI just figured that it was part of my

life and.I just kept going after I got married. My husband would go with me but

he didn't approve of my children getting scratched. But it was my 5ifax way of

life so he just went ahead and let me. But they still do that. They still 1 have

the day the day that they don't eat anything, scratching day, pnd they just

drink that black medicine static

G: What's the black medicine?

Y: WEll, that's to keep him from getting hungry and also, I don't know how to say it,

it's to keep their bodies strong or something like that I don't know how they

sayi it. Like I say, I t can't hardly put in English what they tell me in Indian/.

It's kind of hard for me to do. Some people has it easy but I never could.


and they've had it years and years.

G: Do you k drink it out of a cup?

Y: Yes, they drink jit out of a cup.

G: Asl your mother why they drink the black drink and see what she says.

Y: I guess you could say it's just like starting a new year

G: Cleaning out?

Y: Yes.

G: Like white people give & castor oil? Clean them out once a year.

Y: I guess so but they drink that black stuff and it just empties their stomach.

They just throw everything back up. I mean you can see the4 do it and I just

guess it's part of their way of life. It's just like starting their new year

again. Well, I guess you could say that the Green Corn dance is like an Indian

New Year.

G: Do you still go to them?

Y: Yes.

G: Is it getting fewer and fewer people/

Y: Oh, yes. It was for a while but now we have some of the INdians from the other

reservations-that come.

G: From where? 3ig Cypress?

Y: From there ad from out there at the Trail.

E: Any of then co-e up from Dania?

Y: Up here? Nor too many. Now they usually have a lMt of peopL'e there.

G: How long does it last? How dong is the whole celebration?

Y: Four days.

G: You still go?

Y: YEs.

G: Is that considered a lot of fun and the kids and the old folks really look forward

to that?

Y: Yes, but some of. us that has gone on through our lives consider it a sacred

thing. Some of the younger people like people my own age don't know anything

about it. They are things that it's just a place to go and have a lot of fun.

And they'll come in with liquor and this just disappoints us, really, because

it's something sacred to us. And the other people, they'll bring something

like that and it just isn't really good for us when we see that. We just don't

like that. To us that place is for anybody and for everybody that wants to

come so we can't say, "You cannot come in here" and stuff like that. So these

people come.

G: What do you do the first day?

Y: WE11, I think they kind of lay out the whole four days static

You know, it's the same thinggevery year but that's traditional, too. The

very first day they kind of lay out the whole thing.

G: Oh, they plan it the first day.

Y: YEs. And it's the same thing every year but static

I think that's the day they would go out and cut firewood. They have several

camps around one fireplace static

and they go to each camp and each fireplace

That's the third day is the day they build that big, fI guess you could h call

it static

G: Has your brother


G: Has he sat under it?

Y: They have a special place for each special clan to sit by or under


G: When do they dance?

Y: WEll, they dance at nighttime.

G: They dance everynight?

Y: Yes, every night until the fourth day when nobody eats and nobody drinks or

anything even down to the babies until they fix that medicine and all the men

use it and the children, all the male boys get scratched. The women are allowed

to eat but nor the men and the children are allowed to eat, too. But then after

that, the men just go all day and night without any food. And the next day, the

women cooks for their men and they eat but they don't' eat. But that same night

they dance all night ar ound the fire.

G: Do the women get to dance?

Y: Yes.

G: Do you all dance like we do where you put the turtles wrapped around your leg?

T: Yes.

G: What do you put inside the turtle shells gravel?

Y: Well, that's what they used but my mother and sister has tried some of the

an d they work pretty good. I had a pair of those rattles made

last sunier by some Oklahomaas but they were made in cans and wired together.

And they were really good and I really like it then.

G: They were made out of those 5 milk cans? Have you seen those?

Y: YEs.

G: They make them up there where I live a lot.

Y: I've bean trying to get some but I haven't ever been able to find out who made

them. My mother went up there and she traded a skirt for a pair of those

and she knew that I liked them to dance so much that she brought them back for me.

Y: After a while, you know, the cans would just tear up from that wiring so I had

to sell it to a museum that wanted it. So I don't have any now.

G: So what are the women keeping the time with now the turtles or the cans?

Y: They use the cans. The milk cans. I was going to am make a pair out of box

turtle shells. I caught about thirty some box turtles and they all died at one

time and I had to throw them away. I wanted to get more than that but before I

got my ligit, they all died so I just had to throw them away.

:i My mother.has got some here. My little girl is learning how to use those rattlers

now. She really enjoys dancing too.

G: OK, now here's what we do. We have a lead man, we call the caller now do you all

have that?

Y: Yes.

G: And he calls out the dance, right?

Y: YEs.

G: And all the rest of hk them men -

Y: sings behind him.

G: And where do you have the woman kin the circle? Right behind the caller?

Y: YEs, behind the first man or just along behind anywh ere. So, you know, they

mix together like a man and a woman and so forth.

G: J-Do you have any where just women dance?

Y: No.

G: You all have just the straight circle dancing.

Y: W have that and thejother dances.

G: What other dances? What do you call them?

Y: Well, we have the buffalo dance and they have one they call the dance,

the.snake dance.

G: How do you do the dance.

Y: Well, if you have a lot of people, it's too long but they have very few. When the


Y: leader sings and they have a woman in between every man and they have to hold a

hands and they be facing toward the fire. And every so often when he gets to a

certain part of the song everybody runs towards the fire and they let the first

woman go. And she has to go all the way back around the fire to the end of the

string. And then it goes on and on until the very first woman comes back to the

first, to the head of the line. Then they start on another one. And I think

it's four f phrases of a song that a leader has to go through before they finish.

G: That's real interesting a dance. What were some of the other dances

you mentioned?

Y: jWe have the buffalo dance but that's danced at day time.

G: OH, here she's bringing the shakers now.

Y: This belongs to my daughter.

G: Now, these are what?

Y: These are unbleached what do you call that stuff?

G: Unbleached muslin/

Y: Yes.

G: Three cans in here. What are these beer cans, pop cans?

Y: Those are probably beer cans.

G: And you're zgt them tied here in the middle with string and each side's about

a foot lon0. And where would she tie these around her, leg

Y: Well, we use it around the back

G: And how old is she?

Y: Well, she's abour eight years old now. She started when she was about

six years old.

G: Now these are yours?

Y" Yes.

3: And these are your mother's?

Y: 'as. They're the same thing.

3: Now you've got six xCxxwtEe cans in each one of those.

Y: Yes.

G: Well, I think next time we're up in Oklahoma we might see if we

can't find her...see if we couldn't find a her or have somebody

make you a set up there and when we come back down, try to bring

you a set of them. Do you know anything about your people up in

Oklahoma, have you ever heard about the Seminoles up there? The

Creeks up there?

Y: Yes, we have but I don't know that much of them. My uncle does,

but my uncle knows so many things he'll come home, well, I don't

know how many times, I think he's just gone about every year ever

since I can remember, but...

G: What's his name?

Y: Billy Osceola.

G: Oh, yeah, he's famous, he's written up in a lot of the books.

Where does he live now, down in tha...

Y: Well, he's in Hollywood now.

G: Did we talk to him the last time we were down there?

For a little while, I think so, yeah. Now, he's wrestled the

alligators some too, hasn't he?

Y: No, he never has. His brother has, and one of his sons has

but he never has.

G: That's just kind of a tourist thing, isn't it? I mean...

Seminoles never really did that, they just do that for...

Y:. Yes.

G: Would you like to live down in Hollywood?

Y: No.

G: You wouldn't. Is that considered more around the whites,

living down there?

?: Too much town.

G: Too much town, huh?

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