Title: William Godfrey James
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Title: William Godfrey James
Series Title: William Godfrey James
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January 4, 1974

---Iert-, some basic biographical material. here h was born,-h

>*O 60 r ae /c3o
education, and how-he bee interested in olitics and so on.

J: I born inr Boyon Beach.,in 1930. Attended schools in Boyton up

until about 1945 when my mother died. I went to Washington, D.C.

and attended Anactia High School. Southeast section ---Forty-five

Forty-six. Part of 7L2.TY-seven, came back to Delray Beach, Florida

in 1947 Christmas time. And graduated from Delray Beach High

School in 1947. allowingng September1 4a the University of Florida-

started off in prelaw course but then in my senior year because

of having taken ROTC and knowing that I had a commitment to go

during the Korean War I switched from prelaw to sales and cales

management. Got a BC BA degree A) d sales and sales management

in 1950^and entered the Army in September '51. -+uinci back

to Delray Beach and married also, '51 November. Ue returned back

to Delray Beach in '53. Sold appliances here in Delray for nearly

about two three years. Sales manager for a local appliance firm.


J: Opened the insurance business, general insurance in 1956, and it

was some where around the Goldwater days that my actual involvement

other being interested in college and helping other people .get

elected. I worked in campus politics to the extent of being one of

the workers who made signs and did that type of thing. No extra

seeking or running for office myself.

W Uere you ever appointed to r student government office?

J: I was never appointed. I remember the varcity arty. The Varsity

Vary was defeated I remember what we callVthft ty n of Varsity

our won
party. I remember because o president varsity rty

election night. jprdied an airplane over the '-(I-LL l1 7LD

prnnpgn jumping over the ghet- He had jumped

1t-> NOT
before the vice president k-ncr-ked and almost got himself hung up

0 FT
in the telephone wires, but then in the J-f Goldwater days, committees

W^ wdre seeklq v>V^
formed here locally ata^-pigo esist and trying to get

to the point of the National Convention mieTrittg-:7-,1-" 'oldwater to

the presidential candidacy in 1964. Prior to that we worked



K)6T 1I
J: of course, in '60 for Proesident Nixon, but thatt-ste way we got

4PZT77AJ6 p'J T 6E DJFT D 4 UF
involved, get into Jeff Goldwatero meeting peoplee around the state

other people -- -a-- r-of---ur own locality.and uh,

How did you become invied? 'What lnds of things did you personally do?

J: 'ell, in the Goldwater Campaign, I started out being on a local committee.

HTer ^* Dolray cach appoint Goldwater and then, later, when

Congrosnman ramer and others got involved, I became the chairman of -i-

/_ for Goldwater in 1964 tnd thore worc two facts tht had to do

with the slate. I worked ao the chairman of the Goldwater slate aSe fee-

th --Ze0nqe slate Wl also said that they were Goldwatcr people andlt+ I -e

thtrt they were running as f ,no_ .: ter pcople core running

. a- and when the election is-ove with ion ., more seats

than the pl. ae-by far but we did get a lot of votes from it. The

people w1io took over then at that time then made myself and another

Jenndl onta Vd
fellow that lhn he was naimd Fo son, on-ofu,^myself cochairman, l

MAi t s u ,tlth hiii. Then it ,was after the '.4 election, i tallkt/,

about why don't you get intded in the Republican party ThI 1 a
wi$,utructurc the mechanic of it.
It was suggested that -- could r-i-eo for the


J: State committee- the next time the job uqs open. so I did run in 1966

with the State Committee and won that race. And then I ; went to

the state convention -in Tampa where we selected.chairman and ran

vice particular
for the district.chairman and got that chairman, got that4position.

Then, in '67, shortly thereafter, the special election,AI ran for

the Florida Hlouse of Representatives and was elected in MarchA4967.

I ran for roeehction for Florida House in '68 and atthat time didn't

have any Republican or Democrat opposition. a4-candidates outnumbered

the Detocr...ts two to one. Then, in 1970, I had to run again for the

state co'mitteeman's job. And didn't spend any of my money because

I was raving my money for the Sen:te race that I was going to be

involved in.V n again the state committeeman's job for four years.

I didn't run for district vice chairman because the chairman, the now

chairman,Tommy. 2homas, a- on.,y asked 4 to take a position

and ho --s ~eod where he hIs appointments. Hoe jT- .- in'. the

legal gon0A and legislative/an4 after -61appcinted me as

are counscoa -2//ofter that ;ent to the Nixon administration

and one and he resign' -th/ to committee. He resigned from

active/participation Resigned from the-ftipaktment of Gegsaw


nine months later i
J: Jun(. 1972 / I decided that I wanted to run for office again.

aa employee and run for the Gettrt House representative

again of '72, aid was reelectede /

*. OK. That's light. I think it was very impressive Thank-you. for providing

an insight into Republican politics in Florida CA4and d-lora

politics in the State in this period of time. I'd like to begin

because of what you said about your earlier party activities Begin

with Jeek-Goldwater, the Jack Goldwater movement. What period of time----

G. Herald Alexander was up in the primary leadership oO arty structures.

such as it was. What do you remember about the nan? How close were

you associated with him? And what kind of an effect did he have on people

who were working at this level? yeronally, I didn't have any contact

or knowledge other that what I was told and what I4had seen as a result

of his behind.sceneSmanipulation of the department.

-What have you seen? What did yhu see that made you somewhat?-----

J: Well, his handpicked chairmen% and-as .-.nf ampa area. And I

saw a party that you couldn't that when you read over the state committee

list, of the people involved, you found tfof them had grown up in those

jobs They were elected to them every forufour years


J: time and time again. They didn't seek out people that were running

(,ltjt, (L.itA
for office local. :' wise or statewse. They were interested primarily

only in whether or not we had a Republican president or they were involved

in the campaign of Republican presidents for te benefits that they might

receive from Washington, but they couldn't relate nor could they even

could have successes
believe that they :in the State of Florida. And because of

sort o^AR defeatist attitude on the local and statewide basis

we were not developing grass root Republicanism in the 6tate. They were

not interested in going into precincts or going into counties and cities.-

And seeing te Republican Party come up from Grassroots. They wanted to

the office. es ^I :
come down from Washington tc few post L.-4fit and if you coula

a few judicial appointments and things of this nature. It seemed to

be the only thing that they cared for and in many instances some of these

people were only on the state committee because relatives were

already postmasters Qt I d If 4 A state committee positions

orthey were on the committee because it met every four years. Somebody

t the person
paid their way to le conventions hey could fote for whoeverspaid th eir

way told them to vote for them in the election.

I Do you have any personal contact with Mr. B~ya?


.,etdid some
J: Yes, I did meet Mr. 17yan and did have.conversations with him.

low FO* UL gentleman
And even though, I think that Byan was a p ty ingentleman
even A Bwrn was a pr t infine
a pretty nice man, someone you could enjoy having Ai a fam acquaintances

(6ra social w air, but his vision was too limited to even conceive p thPe.id be'

a Republican governor or Republican senators from the state ,nd the

majority of the Republicans in the House or even-the Senatecanf-even that's

-c become oj some importance nud 'ha1- /1 a-fact-upon what transpired and

a-'t policies o hat were set in the state. I don't think that he could see

court houses changing over and he could see thgade9fo becoming,

Republicans It was just to him .I don't think that he could vision he

i ^thing happening.

It wasn't Xthen so much that he might have been opposed to that4/btt-ahat"*

4Je. i^o IT ly
heAcouldn't A4 practical.speaking in his own terms?

J: I think so for himself. Now _GAlexander I Oon't think that

had4 ,rs.rvAt.iopn,-, ,
he wanted that. He -.' when we talked to different people,

(Z) G j*AlmXl dor's
who had run for office and had, dominance in the party. He -ever
\ t0Q*c want to hel vnin and to ret a check to you on A certain day.
1 'wan y ^* .
A final
dag d then the *heck would arrive after te the date for receiving

d\ -tlUt C(%tn4^W^U^^^
contributions xAd-somet imes even after election. I think that Frgton

use have one on his office 014S10


cash h -eekit
J: but he didn't wh e ame in after the results of the

elections So he sent it hack and jstead of caching it, he just VI8Red it.
to /him that G Alexander really wan't interested in seeing Republican

to toj fl7t //' ..
elected.o in 0ny i th- io.h. t

- You were upset with this kind of thing* -' you weren't alone

in feeling disconten te.d with the Republican Party "t fw wre-emoving.

-SE Who and how did the so-called Reforg group get together? What ~ p e^ )

Who as involved?

J: Well, my problem sar ed when locally we didn't have a young Republican

organization*, The one in the West Palm sv_ Beach area had

become pretty dormant. So we were invited to go to a meeting one night

in Boca Ratonad.t organize a yOung Republican group

- Who was going t organize it?

J: Tm $-at Delray Beach or BocaRaton % the present time d all I

know is a g attorney and he's the one who gade the call and I made

some calls and apeoplA ork with goGoldwater ho were some young

men and women in the area and we attended the meetings and

found out that we had more people there than they did and in thinking

about listening to hat this gentleman had to say about



J: what he wanted to acomplish and what he wanted to do, we sort of

had an informal #%fjd around the room and decided that instead of

their slate,
going with a I'd run for president and organizeA the chairman

and I'd control the organization as f ehai rather than this

gentleman who didn't have the confidence in hi itle so we had

an election in even though he called a meeting that was te last

time that we ever saw him.

K Can you ell me where the meeting id at?..

They were
J: It was held in Boca Raton Community Hospital, s tarting toben

:,hospital Boca Raton and had this building on the present site of the

hospital Someone allowed us to meet.there Z!t2 "il

V "- Can you date the meeting?

J: It was^1965.

Any idea of the montlat the time? of the year?

J:: I can't recall. I probably have it somewhere in A" records.Y-e*can

probably find it and give it toT but I can't remember exactlybeemea -

It .I remember hs. I recall that it was fterwpd that I was elected Y ~.ne

And the way that the organization works it was
And the way that the organization works, it was a turn ozf the
^ -4 eL1-


J: baos&e unb then earelon the executive bo .rd of the state the

Young Repiblican federation.

This is what happened to o you? 4f /

J4I went to being chairman to tje next mmeetingA andat-he.district

meeting.~)itting around talking to :other young Republicans around

the state

\S- Where was that now?

J: It was in Gainsville.

11: And can you date that?

J: No. I thought it was in Gainesville, Florida but it was Ocala. It was

in Ocala. Right near Silver Springs. And that was in probably *

I can't remember what time of the year it was.

; It still would have been in '65?
1 t
J: Yeah, I believe i-t-wer

^ 16-5.)OK

J: AT t~at-meeting t& wre '.e k4afina Ia people who wre interested in

... t. interested ig,

S- OK no problem. (it
S-1d meet and

J: What we did at the meeting -7 talk., with other young Republicans

around the state fact* Why have an
~,that we are concerned about theorganization?. Why work? Why have

to elect or to
an organization? Just, president ,try to get votes for the
Why not
president. try toget people elected to offices.d"bthe State

of Florida. taounty an+A tatc4 itself and discuss why

J 1' n 1 1n it / he
you hear a lot of ,1 ,i Browns, the do-nothings

status quo t ,, t \ ^ .
Republican organization an -hat i there should be some way

that we could change things to eeemingAmore active and become

activist as it were in getting young-people elected to the state

Getting people involved as chairman of the state committee. Actively

and seek
seek monies,,andidates for office, and oppose Derocrats everyplace that LV-C

w have- a chance and even in some placeswe didn't have a chance to U*t7 .

q- So some .ime in late 1965, this small group of young Republicans : the

n or did this come later
first, was it at this meeting. Was tere a plan for it.or was this still

an airing of dissent?

J: We started talking about it and some of us started having meeting

,Jp-tA -at- t
AndA say some of us -a very small numbers -L. .

Can you remember any of the people?

J: Bill Murphin,, up here in Hoke Sound Martin County, a good

friend of his and still is with him wherever Bill Murphi is today


J: named Jk Cary. You had Fred Hagin from the Orlando area. You had

Lou Frye from theAWinter Park area. You got a Bill Taylor from Jacksone--

ville area. You had a G+ad Griffin from Pinellas County. Bill S ch Bes '..

from the Fort Myers area. Willard or Bill Dover from Broward County ega

S Casi*ha from Dade County. And myself and a viung man named
S. exactly
(-H sZe which was involved at the time. I know.when it all fit

together as far as the time schedule, but to d young Republicans
needed money or we needed in order to do what we wanted to do.

The young Republicqns didn't have the money to-give*,)V

that organization so a young Republican Foundation type thing was done.

I' Who started hat?

J: It was deoe by the young Republicans Federation, but

it was pr At~by the people most the people I just mentioned.

This nucleus of people and the meeting was held .Maytag in Miami.

It was explained to her what needed to be done ari d hat hnr -nnn ti.nns

witih b war She was also interested in young Republicans

f /that
R/ /<44 when she thought.all these young men and women

that had come along could form the basis and foundation

of thtuture of the Republican Party.


S- Did you personally attend? She had lunch with
J:I did not personally attend the meetings. several of them
I b i w where they had lunch.
I believe it was
in Dade County, Thqroutlined the plan that they have been

able to accomplish and take over,if you want to call it that,of the

her was
Republican Party. Andfinancing.I believe, the check that she gave

the bach was somewhere around $20,000.00. $20,000 that-e3uld-be used

for salary and expenses. To split the state in two sections

and to assign one person to go talk to all the state committee people

in the northern part of the state, one in the southern part of the counties

we h
to explain to them what kind of Republican Party 6uld have

what could be accomplished if people on the state committee were
actively attempting to find canvass to raise money-to push the philosophy

und-zrornrdipis m ^-gC -7if

S- This meeting would have occurred sometime again in late 1965 or early

with Mar Maytago A \
1966, At this point and V times Bid G.AAlexander or Tomke.ab ey

Bi 'have any idea that you were doing this kind of thing?

6: Not until after they actually put the people in the.---- Up to

this particular time I don't believe that they had any knowledge of it.

They may have, but I don't believe so. And the two people,#g/ were

eventually /J"
hired to do the job were Hal Stayman and ChucLh



K Who worked where?

J: Chuck w h)Bhf""-'m the north of the state. IHa -f man was

ar N from Ind ian a, I believe,
more nearly sort of> country boyand it was thought that he would

in the Western Panhandle
fit into the rural, country people of North Floridax, An that Hal

sort of it was
Stayman was.a city slicker. And figured that he could talk to

the people that were representing the state committee Dade County
and Palm Beach )' Ut -t-
and Broward County, and relate to then And, also in the more

^ & J C 1 then
populous and urban i-they-had AAchance. And.each one of them

went around and they would report back. teher we started to have

Orlando, \r~a-M4<,t
meetings in Miami, Broward County, and arPying

places and they would make.their calls. They would come back aid

report how these particular people felt. These people were willing

to go along with us in -- reform movement. These people

are not Xhese people are dedicated G. Harold Alexander

--and then we would see

particular CTt1 C U pu i
who we had in those Canvss, and then-the Republicans
itself just in the community hat could
4^ -ir the party Paagainst those people, dttil'theI e

.a chance to beat-4he election.




-GoCtd we stop long enoughto see if we can't draw up some profiles

of.typical Republican united in support of G. Harold Alexander. faction?
and typical1Republican$who would have thought inerms of reform?

Were, for example, the Republicans in support of Aleander generally

older Republicans by age?

J: Yes.

i in terms of
- Were they generally wealthier Republicans economic living?

J: You had both of them that way. You had some in the southern part of

the state or central part of the state that had a good deal of money

or had had a comfortable living, but you had some in North Florida that

from what I know of them, didn't have ~, they were ;just old er

Republicans who had been the only Republican maybe in the Maybe they

had a brother or sister who that was a big Democrat And it seemed that

there was some in North Florida where it was a good thing to have

your brother the big man the Democrat' c~ .id-be the big man Maybe the

only man in the Republican Party that happened tb-be on your side

Y1a have a door open that your buddy took care of going the other

direction. Some of them seemed to be that kind of people. I'm not

criticizing some of those who are still on there because some of these

people continued to t elected



J: we were able to convince I think, over a period of timethat it
a future and
was lime to start being that way and start thinking about see

that AL this thing could be done either aAtwo party thing or

someday Republicanl.4A V

OK so after these two men went into the field and again have a series of

meetings. Was a formal plan set up ? A time saving organization?

Chart? How soon was going to occur and

J: It was all planned the '66 election because it only happened

every four years and there was no way -. -e didn't want to wait

five years.. and five and a half years for one- oh-A eMed--

e t off the ground.

- Did anyone consider before the election' p)id anybody consider going

to G. Harold Alexander and just simply asking him to resign? Or was

that something that he just never uld have considered doing anyway?

J: Well, it wasn't a question of getting him to resign because

at this particular point he was not the chairman.

Fairfield Briow getting BPown out?

J: I think thIt- Fairfield Brw was talked to. I think that we sent,''

I can't remember whether it was Mipan Stayman, but we had several e I -


J: talked-mau tier f-o ..hilo.. /nad see what his feelings were about

working with ideas we had instead They dame back with the same th ing

which wqs more or less
that I said earlier, the confusion that it was impossible

Y&^ TO vT a1r Y, P V-1 V_

V!- He was ty e j


nd that G. Harold Alexander was impossible because if he couldn't
if he couldn't
run things ortcontrol things, he didn't want to be involved on the

basis that he was just a participant. He had to be a ka4 or

The one ,
he didn't want to be involved. Yhing we didn't do and nobody in the

group never talked about who the chairman would beior candidate for

chairman was ever discussed Almost to .great loss. We were out

checking around and talking to people and it finally got to a point

you know,
that people were sayin4."who are you suggesting?" You are saying that
,"-V ) Vt DJ group
we ought to get rid of G. Harold Alexander but who are you suggesting

8 somebody capable of leading the party to be the chairman? And they

would turn-back in and tell them that they- soeld-gt ti-n this kind of

problem 7 eL0 D
S saw Mrs. So and So wi4- Mr. So and So wh the -ter-

o(u\r candidate. we ae going to get? ,We were not calling ourselves VA 4



J: We were not calling ourselves we were just interested people,
_.tvvW'^ K.f // J,
ife' Nap group had the best name that we ever had for ourselves, )Mt '

We had met in Port St. Lucie, I believe, discussed the problems

of not having a charter. Se-we didn't settle it ye"t We later met in

Orlando, north of Orlando and at that particular point in time we selected

Bill Murphin to e the chairman.

K: How did he become the choice?

J: He was the one man who said that he could take the time from his business/

and still be able to survive. 1e ran for chairman and got elected

chairman. Lu Frye was in the..Senator Gurney's law partner at the time.

And iwe-had been pretty well told that -he- he got directly involved in

trying to throw somebody out or to gt involved as the chairman,

t might be bad for his law practice. It might be bad Acr income btar-

1a oAiTr" a- ) Ae-Aa0. avYCtI%-I
people. 1 was involved in eae insurance business and didn'- see how

I could take time out to travel around the state to talk to all these

people. And then, if I got elected, I didn't have enough time to get e

the arty ta do the job. And we thought that he wouldn't be a one-man

chairman. There would be enough -mae o-asethim in policies and

decisions and whatever you got.



J; And)any one of-us elected we might be'taken offthe rollbecause the

J nof'.pW.. m 0H4'1' C 4^ -^^
rest of the group more or less 's-pi rhbtied"to do anything to assist ",

A- campai gn xto make contributions for traveling around the state to t

raise money-to pay for the campaign. 'Then, if elected and after elected

to hnw1*ktime to beto o lre ".art,' -2r, t job .And we felt that

he -:ulhli't be a one man chairman that here would be enough men to as-.ist

him in policies and decisions and whatever you got. hesF any ne of us

that was selected would not be taking the job on his own /he rest of

the group would more or leads committed to do anything that they could.

to asist in the campaigning to make contributions toward traveling
to raise money -T-\_
around the state and.to pay for the campaign,a-d if elected and after

elected, to give of their time to attend meetings. 7o meet before the

regular meeting if necessary aed- to put together agendas and-e -

draft ideas to be presented to committee that is financing plans
enlistment '
or whether it was candidate selection or,. whatever And so he

was the one who said I think that-they sent Hal Stayman out of the

room because he was being paid and then the rest of us voted on who

we wanted. e -9 \wado i consensus of bill Murphin.

id he want the job?


J: He wanted the jb. He was bashfull about it. He was a very bashful

person. He didn't like to te much publicly and hadever done any

public speaking d-maybe never got in front of a group to

I: w &- about accepting tae
speak before. And he had real serious... 'e was hesitant?
t you're
the nomination of theetudent group saying going to be the man Ot't to

to go out and say you're running for chairman, and it scared him k

and rightly so It would scare .anybodg. particularly someone ho-

wasn't that outgoing, pot usejto being out in front of the public.

Having meetings aiet later n; i on some oeneessione to go over
with them- \
parliamentary prodecures and teach them some of t1e basics that

would be necessary In fact, when he got elected, we had to

stop the meeting and take him out in another room and work with him, 7 -

take him back in and let him s-t beauge He was dumbfounded and

speechless it wae embarrassing,when-we stopped it all, and took him

out to get it-all put together. We came back in and he did pretty good.

It was quite some time before he was able to give a speech 0

#e'd take one foot and hide it behind the other. He was a great guy.

but we thrust something on him that wasn't his cup of tea at the time.

He later grew into it real easily.



- I think that it is understandable in front of anybody. I wouldn't worry about it,

M -) UI N Qe --p 6->
-o te sdte executive committee convention is that what yeure-ippygL

J: Well,,first have to have the state you have to have the electionsbecause Du -

counties. RJ
people are elected in their various The state committe~tnagem

At*d sa
emberiwere elected by the Republicans in their particular areas. Anee we
that were of this group.
ran. I ran here and others ran in other parts of the state, Bill Murphin

different ones because you even
and -around the statesto get elected tobe considered a candidate for

anything. And you certainly couldn't take over unless you got enough votes.

existing C
So with the people who were .on the committee who were running for

that were pe m e to
re-electior, along with the people we were able to run as candidates,
that committed to us,
either as men or women w1T-were .we were able to come up

with a large number of the hundred and eeme possible1 two people of each
of the sixty-seven counties* and the only competition we had at the

convention didn't turn out to be Thom Fairfield Byrfrttbecause by

the time our work was done, another group back;in Charles Holly

area I -
over in Pinellas. got their work done he ended up with just a handlfull

of people theirr that were in G., Alexander's corner And in the corner

of Thom Fairfield "k V-')
K- and where was the actual convention held?
K- A


J: It took place in Tampa June 1966.

And at this meeting, how did the.. how much preliminary work was there

wa-the meeting began and voting take place? Were they unusual

We that
J: used the same method we used in our young Republican Federations and

SamongD the people,who they were, al-
our clubs And that we made up a chart :: we continued to meet with

them because, of course,
and caucus with and to keep our accountV a in political
delegate of any type
organizations such as the Convention and when you have a

limited number of people who can vote, it's much easier handling

got lo-tc( {
them-than running for public office. As long as you people sitting loskiJi-

don't '!.! got o P
babyjsitting and making sure that they ..change w e- committee4 J

Vol ou 6 b ,t ables7
we-hae our question' :we had the ones that were definite for somebody

elsepn.d knowing the caucus is around and I guess it wqs the Friday night

before the Saturday vote took place, it became evident that -by-4het.imn

Fairfield ry was no longer a threat w 1hi. they wese.

this group come from?
Who was back1in .Charles Holl and where did

J: Pinellas County and this would be some of Cramers people around the state.

They were outside of Pinellas County, hey were basically friends of the


Cramers. proupj
Y- Were they a group that was backiin Charles Holll to oppose your
Or were they back-in Charles Holl to oppose Drr Fairfield 3ry5Ht?

f you understand the meaning of the question.

J: A little bit of both. I think primarily they didn't think that we were

going to gt enough votes to wrestle control away from G.H Alexander

because we were for the most part in their minds considered to

be people without any political experience backround,and knowledge

how these things work and so how could we expect to pull off

this particular victory. VWe felt that maybe some of them were oldeL

Republicans that were fed up with G. L. Alexander and Thom Fairfield

Bryant. They thought that they were better able to handle it.

nd if elected, M u wt ''..
they were better able to handle it than me so they

were.sort of wanting to get rid of G.~. AlexanderI and-at the same time

they didn't trust our control and didn't trust whether or not

that C0 r
we could wrestle with control, / but we made a deal dung the night
/ -> a 4 C r fliA -r5.-(( ^ ith G.4c Alexander's people and ended up but it was enough.

whether D 6J^ T
It became meaningful with not knowing some of your doter1e would

go to Holly or not, but we agreed and to let Harry *-ScIooley from over

in Lee County take a position wanted district vice chariman, \"
thae I had already spoken for that.
I think that they made him the assistant secretary.


J: TIey put him on the executive board,and we did something with a
of them,
couple of othersan~d-so they dislike- the G.H Alexander group

disliked the Bill Cramer group and the Holly group weatk&Ut dislikel-thpEs

go when they saw that they were out of it, they came with us. So

their sup- which
we were able to have /port) ^more or less just closed out

the Cramer people totally. We were in and we were going to win.

-ad the balance of the night and next morning, all we did was make sure

that our ppple Gamn with us and talked with us on and stayed away from

being talked into you know, leaving the fold. And we won on the

first ballot. we-tried to have a closed I believe somebody

ballot. (C_ -L-
suggested a closed We-u. I have a philosophy closed ballot andO you
going to lose we'll

are going to lose if you think that you are going to lose we'll

takl-c -yu 'U1- tLh d make you say it aloud. ant ye figured 6-

etr people werecommitted to this-and the only way to keep the

commitment was to have them vote out loud-and stand up and say2 KO i OW

we-know ow-hAe vote for Bill Murphin. I 'vote for this one,and once

we vJE \ any
got Bill Murphin, the rest of the slate ran totally, without.opposition

-- the opposition* just stopped.

- Yeah. t
J: Once the chairman was cracked, we got every other position,that-we--ptl-u


C Lt ^ Then we caucused
J: nominations t Bar bang, bang, they went. .and the people

in it. said that they were running for district vice chairman such

as myself, and others even if they ,.if that caucus had a lot of the

other people in it, they gould go ahead and say, yeah, he's the one

who got it,e*euseme,. the people that he wants in it, arfs e

have-Uto- the main offices were electedrwithout.any flaws whatsoever.

And so the reform of the Republican Party was complete.a-t that tim
J: was complete at that time.

S-OK .

J: Then we had a piece of luck because what happen in the upcoming

elections r sort of worked in wih our plans. AA-J O-

r- In what way?

J: Well, of course, we didn't have any idea when we took over the Republican

Pary of any success for many years to come. de a work at it

(k 'B with
o-start building. ihen, Robert King High being selected by the

Democrats he guy in the green report coat flying back in from Paris

Claude -A.
ae.^Kirk coming before our young Republicans he-m ayor up in

Gainesville I get Gainesville right here in (lorida)and he came in


----------------------------------------_ _ -- ---- _------_ _


J: at the last minute and he was fresh off the plans and flew all the

way back from Paris just to be with ho-au-tocade. and 'I want

to run for governor." "I'deab+ want to be your governor." He sort of

just totally swept the convention. He just became the other people

who were there talking about running about governor He just

forgot-i v -

V- Who were the other people?

J: What was the man from Brevard County?

T from
And-thenw-there was Paul Myers Fort Myers.

(N- That's OK.

J: I can't rem ember the fellow who ran. He was a nio County Commissioner

V, my
from Brevard County, but he was not gedp material in our opinion.

The other man came to the meeting to tell us why he

thought that he ought to be governor with Paul Myers, ?he mayor at that

time wae-Fort Myers. and-.ut the governor Governor Kirk just had

that they Y
such personality enthused him so much, that the Young RepublicansGroup0-

who-was the base of the reform really, the ones that were involved in the

reform and all the rest e-tfhet-.that were in it were the ones that controlled



J: *y{'. i f A tL' ,T ley a

Ti Ui I465 4a.-iV Ia M a,-
This was the man they wanted,-a they thought that should take the party's

banner and lead them on to victoryand it worked out tft*-h a.y-actually

from the standpoint that as they do in so many elections people don't

vote 6 "vote the
for A they against somebody, A negative vote went to minority

party Vf tAO( d
.eah. Claude Kirk was o.ri ,ns far an rh.t -ge6,
,f course, that gave us the ability to .raise money easi, to solicit

for having
funds, and get the necessary monies htaff offices, establish the

Republican Party as oppoentt c i1an'e '

1- Right. Let's go back to the campaign/ and to the AdmiraL Governor

Kirk, coming into the office C( \he campaign itself)I don't want to

skip over that. First of all, what role did you play personallyy ?

Did you campaign actively thrwugmF-7Governor Kirk in your capacity

as Republican ----?

M i o~cc~ I when
J: I- I v-ary uc& d Claude Kirk in 19 4 e was running for United

State Senator. And I actively campaigned for him in 1964-whf I was

at f 'i any Republican
working for Barry Goldwater. because I iuld- happlwork for

Ie maueltao. -running for office Even if I didn't think that he had

a chance to win. because I thought he all-had-a chance to serve other


J: Republicans n B~42hey-h I that this man got this many votes, /t3z?

have 'V J.
he ought to run because things.changed got more int Peested I' 4

Republicans to keep him en couraging people to step out and run for

At ;/ 4 6-e -o r
political office. United States Senate or Congress) Sktate legislature

\44 r he'd 'Lt a
or lycal office. d ghman-t: campaign, and

-auL o t egd- bu4-didn't seem to bother him.

h- What were his a-t/u~'- r for going to the young Republicans and saying

"I want to run." What did he say?

J: Well, he came here more or less talking about the standpoint ;that he had

run for United States Senate against the top Democrat in the State of Florida.

That he had taken on "he SpeonTi Holland who was the most dmrogetve of

all the Democrats and the strongest of all of them. And he had got

X number of votes He made a good showing in spite of his defeat.

That he had shown his interest, he had shown his ability to involve himself

in statewide ampaign.and he talked about his dream) for America his

dream for Florida and uh

- Did he have any specific issues at this period of time? Things like the

war on crime,

J: No, he never

4-itan- concern?


J: No at that particular time Claude Kirk didn't outline' provide us

with -his that he would
to my knowledgeany specipicsc n issues involve himself at all.

Did anybody think that maybe that a 4 k k:"er- --- M'~aE

have ed
to ask him for specific issues?

J: No, that never came up because I don't really believe that he talked

about being conservative. He talked about the suppbot for Goldwater /~
support for conservative people. s/- ".' /
K- Was it a one issue campaign against 0obert-PR-HIrt?

J: NO.

.- Conservatism and liberalism?

J: Yodre talking about what he had told us at the time. Heater in his

he r
campaign went on about two different issues that he' bougI up. and one
thing was taxes were increasing steadily and he ran in the no new
tA-tU,-q ovv-,, -, "A thing,
tax basis,and your-home-is-your-castleconsidering at that time that there
was a lot of discussion& /ou couldn't sell your house to who you wanted

You couldn't buy **wr house here. ,&~( <( tt
to. You couldn't do that, and-Claude Kirk would just take-a-few-things

and he would stick to them day in and day out. And let the other man talk

themselves into problems, because the other candidate, Robert King High,

*iwa involved in this issue and thab-issue and got involved in so many issues



J: that he was bound to make 50 ,mad every time he mentioned something.

because he had a wide range of things that he wanted to discuss. So Claude

Kirk talked about dreams, he talked about the state. He could be and
about how ^ -

ought to be under Republican conservative leadership, ^Ae

could hold the line good pky policies and so forth.

J- When you started te campaign, were you, were young Republicans, were you

personally enthusiastic about his chances?

J: Yes, ,tA

Right from the beginning?

When he 7.d -*fesw
J: Right from the start. into Gainesville and we heard him, we

-F "and .
said ~thr anybody can do it, this man can do it., I didn't know he said

that. I didn't really feel it deep down inside.

That' s really what I wanted to know.

J: Deep down inside I felt you know, we haven't done it before when we made

good candidates and there's just too many other people on the statewide

basis. 7oo badwe outnumber through the statewide.thiang, but then as

the campaign started to velop and I started to sense the way people

feel in this state about somebody from Dade County1

,v\v, ovve
wo the almost total distrust that the rest of the state outside



J: starting in Broward County N toward Dade County. And to fnd that

they had selected a candidate from Dade County over all these other s
'J- V r --e-,5
and-4-the in the primary that they had had-4dff4ert eea in their primary

where they had made accusations/and they had more or less destroyed

their own candidate in the process of nominating. The people in North

Florida were totally just ,absolutely) so for the first time we could

see the people who voted Democrat year after year after year. and only

would change for a Republican president)and they were ready to change.

good ^to us.
The Democrats did another.thing\ They had decided that one of these

days the way the Republican candidates were winning the presidency in

Florida that if they weren't careful, a Republican

candidate for governor was going to sua in on the shi-t-tails of

some Republican president. So they went to Tallahassee andas they are

apt to do, they passea law to what they think is going to be their

salvation. They usually work just the opposite. They passed a law

and said they were going to diange the gubernatorial etion to te off

year. And to change it to the off year, you get the people out to vote

only those who are only interested in campaign. And so the people who

were really anti- can get in the smaller vote election ~L-L



J: and you don't have president involved and all these other things,

and it worked to our advantageV to have an off election year.

So the first time that we had an off election year, the thing hat

we-feared would happen in the election year presidenthappened to them.

They lost the governorship. They also, of course, they have-

viaa running for office,
a law of not being able to change parties.

They changed that, but they put that in to keep

Democrats from changing to Republicans, and-hat wo\aha-wer against -

presden@-Pfefrm at that particular timeg ut you could seec 9-'

catch on. You could see the fire that he had built You could

see his crowds getting larger. You find people on the streets talking

about him, getting more enthusiastic. The calling of the little man.

in a ,pE~
Stop in the filling station or-drug store and say, you know, we *have

a guy named Claude Kirk running for governor You bet you haw-and

He's my kind of man.
I'm voting for him., I like what he is saying.

T9r That's when I ga et.ihe-h-ut who n-a- n really had a

chance .And I predicted and said that he would win it later way

before the election took place. I told people that I had become

a believer an- he could and was and that he was going to be the next


J: governor. And at that time, we just sort of developed a winning

positive attitude. That we were still nervous about it.

- Governor Kirk before he became governor, sa gfor the United States
I personally don't know, but trom
Senate. Now apart from those two things ,

he didn't ,
from all that I have ever read, hve ai vast amount

pride ir in these two a-^-t-
of government experience or political experience.you know in running

campaigns or certainly running c- government, being governmental participant.

Did this bother you and other members of the Republican Party?

Did it bother the governor? Was their some program designed to provide

him with.. Was there some concern in this area/L E i// experience?

J: Until we knew that he was going to win, we weren't concerned.

We weren't concerned his lack of party ba round because

we felt that)-fer number one, that as far as the organization goes,

his life had been spent more or less as a promoter getting g people

together and getting something accomplished.other than

insurance cola tg and that type of thing. We felt that he would

have to lean upon us and their was nothing wrong with that. That if

he had to cme to us wit4 political advice, that we were the ones

involved in the party structure2


it to
J: Thatthat would be a good th ing. That we could teach.him

the way we wanted it taught and he would be o~t- governor so to speak.

but we didn't think enough of him to go with him and sit down and

say, "when you get in, are you going to be a good party man?

Are you going to sit down and council with us as far as appointments

and things of that go. And get it settled. way ahead of time.
Primarily, I think, because at the time we didn't think that he was

going to win to start off with even though we were enthusiastic

about him as a candidate. When it became evident that he was going

to win, he did -4t fati become the nominee, in fact, of the party,

We became concerned about his lack of knowledge about state government.

But he took Don Reed/and Skipa 4 And they took him into

hothl rooms around the state Ad they sat down with them and they

discussed emtel y-fr- I ta c the make-up of itT he state agencies

involved7 ,/he cabinet system and the people involved in those particular

offices. I think that at that particular point and-time, he went

-irrt-e other-state capital for the first time in his life. Where-

he.walked through te estte capital and saw the first floor of it and

ett .to-te. vnl tI. v l"that's the governor's office,



J: that's your secretary of State's office,c'
There's your commissioner of Education." and- then they then discussed,
as I understand
what those job's" sponsibiities were. To find out what the legislative

branch was and where it was and how it fit into the entire picture3

the scheme of things. He was taught these things and sort of a

pae-p~ot-because of his extremely fine memory and intelligence,

it Because -f
e picked.up I think, rather fast. Being a promoter is something like

being a politician, I guess and he was sort of natural

for this. As quick as he could, maybe learn so fast that he-4ould

SA-, We
it was ery easy. regretted later) )very much so that we didn't

teach him more about the Republican Party and theprotocol to follow

in the sytm and the system to follow as far as securing appointees -^V r c

to work with him and to work in the various appointments/ that come

under the -re4i-of the governor's office.

K- This is a very important question that we want to get to. As .we will

talk about later. The split that occured between party end-regulars. O

Governor Kirk wae-in-h t ruaipng but in this period of time)late in

OL6 \V3a4 aa- ^
the elections, it, fairly clear that he ha excellent chance to in.L

fBewas gcdg into office. At this point an- time, were there members of

the party who were concerned who his political advisors are going to bey



J: Well, when we those of us in our group in. allahaa e and Bill

Murphin was thB our leader and our chairman, we went with Murphin

)f/ -t, tLHr j -I e k /011 .0
and we. discussed the fact with hia Who ae-U7yo- going to

select as his top administrative aidebandpeople in the governor's

office. How close is he going to work with the Republican Party

itself and we sent Murph)and others in to talk with him. I don't

know who else went with Murphin, but Murphin did. Now this is
Yh \piM -L 1
Ahe thing that I can explain in more detail later. aver yime we

lot. if
sent him to see the governor, he'd come back washed. I mean.we

sent him for something specific, the governor always won and Murphin

always lost, but that was just the two men though. The governor

WatJd a-ed atn-aggressive and Murphin was, I guess, in that areaV but

/e were concerned who he was going to appoint as -preaidet advisor

how well / was he going to work in relationship to the party, not

only for appointing. the various agencies but from fund raising and
that a -A
things of this nature # u can use a governor's office for, For-

his political party1 A ut we suggested to him to use somebody older
and~pnowledgeable experiencing government)-aa- unfortunately,

because of I his contact with the- tc



J; .a his close involvement with Skip aand

teaching him some of the things,because k was a member of the

legislature and he would naturally lean to these elected officials

who already there and.know more about government L than those of

44 4- A4c4 e It was through
us who were fiw*g- party mechanics. ,H'is suggestionmthat had a

greater bearing on how the governor selected his aides. Skip was a

young man and the people he had around him were younger and he

suggested some of his young associates and eemn uf ut hi lvb

assoatgsien~and-some of his financial backers peopleT to be in the

governor's office. And then that particular individual more or less

brought in the others to-interview5thregr the governor.

And ended up with some young men that were aggressive in the business

world, but who had no background or experience in government whatsoever.

And it's my feeling that the governorwthr tenure in office and his

\cK o %-eF C00o-D ( ev- AA 0
continuation op~o nite -we- greatly enhanced ft he get selected

for his personal advisors some other people other than he did --some

older people some more experienced people, either Republican or

Democrat whichh is eliminating the difference. Somebody who understood

how the party works, how it relates to the elected office itself.



J; How they compliment one another.

n rI^ though KQ *? 5
" Sereally sounds as -'~'s almost too stresteag working, that

here was a man who was non-party in terms of his own background

and experienceand both the party and he lack the experience

of having the governor's chair. That these were not necessarily

the mme stresses, but they were two courses seemingly operating on

both the party and both the man. And eventuallyof course, the party

came to a I.A-
and the man -,a very vicious kind of split in the party sense

of that.-- in nm f th-btzsitri'en What happened from 1966 to 1972

fn your view?

J: Well, in the first place, we were to -6 T T .7evpnd a-e-4maz.

"V,. 0.t 0 'ou S o
successful. IF-was never planned to elect legae4es- in '66.

We never planned to be^successful so quicklyI without getting the

structure built) and getting the background and experience for those

of us whe-were just becoming involved. so a were thrust into a

position where first/we elected e governor. e-asstill

p =a t 4o work out a relationship with the governor between the

party and who he was going to have 'as his advisor, hen the legislature

was thrown out,so we were then thrown into a special election.


J: We got notified by the party chairman abeft the legislatveoffice!-

-e~atr the governor's office that here's your chance for more people

to come in because the Republican is on. So we had to put

down some of our work/ an- organize the party to run for office

Some of the people that would have spent probably .y years in the

party machin..ery itself pi0t-t;b Rntogether and putting them into

shaped left that to run for office.

SPeople 'like VLOtdh '

J: Peple-Ik- myself,.argard,and others w"-ran for office, Ad- hadn't

fjo of e ., .~IA- t eet was created in
plan' to mn for office whatsoever-tbut-as -nt- --- eattin Palm Beach

County. I was the only person that had any county-wide exposure er VuVKi

c70r that
medical office so it was natural.since I had some name identification 4~C

it would be easier to-get elected in special elections than someone else.

FJ to'ukof
And Chuck Eargard had been around the state made some contacts -whA-+rhin

with the state committee people so he had some acquaintance and some

knowledge of how it works and how you get Qee- what you have to dr.

And so we had the special election and we were successful in increasing

the number of Republicans and-how some Democrats only got to spend from

November to March and they were out of office. I think hat-we added



~~< o his issue advisors were going to be? Were the people in the

party now becoming concerned about the practical side of this man

who was going to become governor? ,Xas there some discussions

with the governor about who his own closest political advisor should

be? L-A-c A

SD His own
-_.- I understand that here were some of the problems ,staff may have

had something to db with dividing him from the party Later. At this

point and time,


t was becoming clear. It became clear late in the campaign that he had

an excellent chance of winning and, of course, he did become, he did win

the election. He was going to be the governor. Wasn! there any concern

at this time about his closest staff, on the part of the party. Was their

any conversation with the governor as to who e should appoint, how he

should appoint his closest greiupf-advisors not the people

who are going to run the various departments, but the people who were

going to help him shape the issues Aid help him shape his politics
for the next four or eight years.



J: about eleven more Republicans in the special election that we didn't

have in the '66 election because of the ew-new freshmen. Something

z he 6
of that naturepIbut we-thezn problems that then started developing -&

the governor was the person that could raise money for the party,

getting back to the party end of it. And by having either dinners or

speeches or cocktail parties' we found that you could put on a cocktail

party and say Come to the cocktail party and give $100 to Republican

Party and meet the governor and talk with him and shake his hand.

Of course, the governor had expenses beyond what the state payed him.

And this is something that has been changed under the in na

goverrnie-i but it-e-time Governor Kirk expenses were still there

for the inaugeration because you just didn't ou had no monies

to make the changeover. The party had to raise money finance

4c4 AitjX
setting up new offices in Tallahassee and &tat bringing people

in there --zhired is personal staff and things of this nature.

because the legislature provided no funds for the orderly transition

because in the past it was never needed,and from one Democrat to

the next-, they shaking hands and bringing them in, Use their offices



J: but it was the first time inodern History

.... when we had -t change from one party to

another as far as the governor goes. The i augral ball -there

were no funds. Yet you had all these expenses and all these monies

that had to be spent, but most state funds were available for that

type of purpose. We tried through the legislature after

Sgot elected in '67 to get the legislature to pass a lawsto provide

some funds to pay some bills that were still .outstanding, but, of course,

with being very partisan at that particular point in ) why- it

was impossibleand later the very Republicans who supported

us, supported Governor Askew. because they thought that it was

right then bt it was right now a I would have done the same th ing

if I had been there onthand so forth- but ~r the governor

set up advisory committee around the state as he was accustomed to doing.

I startede-fS on his advisory committee while on the state committee

and after then-was elected special aide here in Palm Beach County.

- Can we stop long enough to explore this advi ory committee? hat were

the purposes of it?


J: The purposes of it wae. to find out what positions and wk4 appointments

were open and were needed to be made by the governor. 2-et out

what jobs would if vacancies created in state jobs, what jobs would be

da I l~i a 3y 's office.
appointed if-tha -tould be handled through the governor* And then, to

find people and to talk to people interested in state employment,

interested in appointments to various boards Things that wan4--tLbe

of + 4'r4-v
contlill-c the governor'to teke applications from them Xo have several

meetings where we ih- oOALs /5,$
looked at applications of people hadmbeen as judges

Judge McTyre retires that, appointment filled We evse-- keep a list O

prospective people for judgeships, eleeted prospective people

on board, and-somebody said that they were interested in the Board of

Regentsappointment came open, wanted tcbon the board of pharmacy

or whatever it might be. We had these applications and interviewed

4vv-- uw^a $,,
the people.we talked to and found that motivation iwle what their

background was, if they had any problems that would surface

ed, when
in case anything happen.and thefAthe governor's office .put

out a list and the part chairman wer-posted that time. Of course, 7 ith it

these are the appointments that are going to be made in the middle of

October or the of January or February We would send forth



J: recommendations that we had in Palm Beach County that we think fit

the billeand ye didn't get very many appointments. We got some but

heard from others,
not very many. And I agree with what I've And

I am always amazed at the quality of people that the governor did appoint to

lb positions that he had the responsibility eesArhe. Not the ones

that he surrounded himself with butpeople that he appointed hwe

were .outstanding in my opinion. He made some of the finest appointments

O-->- -l having
and I think that this is because The-did his background and.surrounded

himself in a corporate structure with people w-h get the job done.

That he had the capacity of talking to a mn and interviewing a man

and looking at his past record/and deciding whether that man could

do the job. He wanted to look good. And he --wanted to look good

agency agency,
because of the job that was being done in this or that A He didn't

to get a lot of
want.criticism. So I never had any quarrel about his appointments. He

4: -Ui4 1-He didn't care yh
was not baduwEd a bit about what party he belonged to. He didn't seek

out and say well I only want a Republican because he wanted the best man

he said for he job and if that happened to be a Democrat, he wanted his

name brought up to 4t. And not nearly as partisan as he ie accused

aesasBdof partisan appointment. You. couldn't even compare what I have

seen before 44


J: and what I have seen with the present eteta ere They ae--bote- totally

jR\ t^ Only occasionally do you ever hear ofa Republican getting

appointed, but in Kirk's administration there were a great number

of them. Of course, he probably felt he was elected by a majority <

the majority of so tat
people of Florida and .people were .Democrats,.he had just as

much responsibility to appoint Democrats as he did Republicans. tluk

One of the problems with our party associa s-tge4er was that he

never did feel that we were the ones that really elected him

to office. We thought that he got elected because eh Demo crats

ww e working the-campaign. great number of people came up to- a

Democrats working for Claude Kirk and they would,,teven if they were I '

Democrat machine they would come out publiciay saying ttht they

were against Robert King High and-thae they were Claude Kirk. >
prganjations were built up outside the Republican organization

that he looked to as being just as a real part of his electionand

more or less / you know
then he developed p the idea with his ego that I did it 'And he

didn't do anything bu-t me. This is what I'm doing for you. and I'm

the one who can walk into a cocktail party and raise for the party

$50,000.00. He couldn't do it without me. And you wouldn't even be



J: the party you are.now. You wouldn't have the people in the legislature.

You wouldn't have all these things. This is what I've done for you.

And instead of seeing that there was an organization put together and

e, 0/->< d,9d
there was an awful lot work pre inctwise or fundraising wise, door-to-

door talking about this man this Qaude Kirk hbut he didn't see that

because of-the big picture, he4age. around giving the speeches and

canvaee4ng throughout the state and I don't th.nk that he ever

a sense of o0t _Z4
developed appreciation of what it takes, some-of-

the -philfe phi- and county level to get someone elect jed

to any office, go tuat-not ever having been involved in titis-

per a n" I9,
e pavt~e \ he didn't realize the significance of it. And he just

it g"
thought th is all his own doings. And that we should be grateful

and thankful to him, that he rcertainlyhad no reason to be so

grateful and thankful to usay ut he did have tremendous expenses. He

liked to move around fast. He liked to go places, salary and

expenses were not enough to cover it.the plane he decided to lease

was very expensive aid so we set up ways where the party would raise

money with his help, but then we could pay expenses, A.plane leases,

and things of that nature. And if I remember certain



our very first problems came up and and he would charge .- -- things

to hotels.and we'd get a bill at Republican headquarters saying that they

owed 1500 dollars and tarke-e ta ther 0, . C>0-V- -

Claude Kirk~would lease an airplane and fly all over the country and

we'd get these tremendous bills and we tried our best to pay them

*-0 ke.- (a-
and we-kept having dinners and pP Ige affairs with him again being the

one was basically responsible for raising money, but he wanted to

spend it all, that didn't leave any for the staff and the structure that

we had. ,ried to talk to him about slowing down and taking it easy

and not letting his staff let up these I-'." bills and-wha.-really

happened n0 e

I- This was the frictionpi4 you think that started -ecauee

J: between the parties.

Representing the party in iis talk, I s ewas Bill Murphin.

J: Bill Murphin7 was the one we would send,even- o bd aqsa come out and

and we'd say go in there and tell them that we want to get this done

and that done. He came back ith his tail between


J: his legs. and the governor had whipped him again .r had won him

over. Most of the time the governor would put his arm around and say,

"you know, what are you worrying about, boy?" I'm taking care of you

Y0VV got
aren't I? I -oti a nice office et here and I'm putting on these

speeches and the party is becoming benefactor of fifty per cent of the

proceeds, at least, andif I spent a more than fifty once in

awhile, you still have more than you had before, more than

dreamed to get \\ Ah Lt r
you had before. And he.would more or less convince eoth,

you know, I am a lucky guy to-come back He'd say, "I guess

I'm lucky because the governor just explained it to me. And he was just

that kind of a man. o~ q\l A ''\

K- OK. After 1967, you moved into the legislature and much of the friction

from .to 1970 Governor Kirk's experience with Republicans occurred in

the legislature. What were some of the specific issues?

J: Well, to start off with, there was no problems with the governor and

the legislature. Even ... if we didn't .agree with him,

one hundred percent. kL COA
we went along with him right down the line Wei4h

'Ive thirty-nine votes on any issue that he was for or against.



J: Either way thna he wanted to go, and when the b'(O VUtoo

Vu Ci k II one button went off in the house, be it thirty-

nine red butt,- or thirty-nine green buttons and no questions asked. One in

awhile some of us might have some personal the

in iny was the governor right i being for this issue or against

that issue tut we felt that it was important that we show that we were

Uivl^ owv- g-o04c-e -
indeed -enf&ring that legislature and that we could be molded together

with a solid force, and tha we were. Tha4 he came up with

the iraugeral ball, the in augfral spee ch )and hni s things like War

on Crime. He mentioned a new Constitution for the State of Florida.

and-we ex ~sted under a system of sheriffs that were all-powerful.

The Sheriffs Association that was like a fraternity of crooks, so nobody

was going to go in and investigate a sheriff that was accused of being

dishonest because the associationn would have to agree that such an

investigation would be made. 4nd it was evident and it had been evident

for some time that the state law enforcement could upon being notified that

some dishonesty is going on in the particular county, go in there and

make an investigation because things et be changed. And they said
mak a ivetia~jg eweti


J: no, they weren't going to do it. They couldn't have a law

enforcement agency and so he'd use what was considered as sort of
He said tha. if .p
an unathodox thing. you won't give me the funds, Xou won't give me

e start
the people to fight crime in this state5 I'll a citizens war

on crime.

- Do you know where he got the idea for it? Or do you think thet he

conceived it himself? Do you have any specific knowledge?

J: I don't have specific idea but I almoktwould in my mind

woeud think that the evidence& maybe some of the people he talked to

around the state said, you know, maybe we ought to get a citizens'

group like we did in the old days, but7 4t<~ .P-, d c ,

but the idea, I think, basically fe-that- 'te never heard

Cvc t ^-cr
anybody take pricdenme except the governor. ~HesY. It was a shock

to me I wasn't sure I liked it much. I'm not sure I did like it-

but I do believe that there are times when-those in politics and those

in political office have-come with itfnman4ien andot-e frth different- a-

r* might not be the accepted method of doing things, but-in order to

act as a catalyst and when you think that this has been talked about

and rejected by the status-quo, -tha do-nothing legislature all those



J: years. The citizens war on crime did cause legisla'turelthet-
C- 4 'C V NOV
in reaction to the hadto -taketp he -doing this

all by himself to develop some tao- /he law that established it.

ia-the State of Floridat Thir Law Enforcement and hen, of course,

his appointment to that particular position one h wh r *:ke u~L t '"e -

.an-appointments recognized ""Vr(aio~ Q recognized thronughut--

thie. nrn&n-1TnTm just recently he was chosen as the assistant to te FBI director. Bill
was Democrat, by the way out of Dade County. and then

the Constitution for seventeen years they called-or Constitutional

revision w;r n.t only uLThey didn't even come clo-t. -in-
-- .t
being able to revise Florida Constitution ;but the Govenoremore or less told

the legislature to d' a pub- l -jo ~ou are going to stay here and-de
your~ -tak wftl. You're going to get out of that whele Constitution and

bring us o a modern-day Constitution if I have to LOU t ~O to lose

your businesses, your--.{ L 'w>Ii 64' you are going to stay

here and do your job* And imayben-- ng y and that type of thing, but

they did it. We had never had a road program that lasted more than two

yea l -range plan os h a tso eer
years. IPo long.road plans or -boea whatsoever
A' /k


J: and 4w in the State Road Department at the time the Department of

Transportation ,nd- we did develop the first program that -peceeded

the two year term that we were budgeting at 4 t-timebefore the

constitution was adopted by the people,and all that the Republicans

were with him 100 The educational crises, the Republican minority

was -mat- ben him 100C teacher walkout was 1968 in Florida. And there

was no aren though there were maybe differences of opinion among hem--

t Republicans, the program we came up with, it's looking back

with hindsight Ahe program now been developpedl 4e not that

much different from what the governor's Blue Ribbon Commission came up

with in '68. And we talked about raising the monies. We put

as many -a millions of dollars near in education at that time. a.-

ifferent method was used a- at1 =t~an. than we suggested, but nevertheless,

it did happen. Education got a bigger 4we1a-of money than we-go@tia-

its entire history) in one particular period of time. Of course, he was

in many instances Al-tA hI Y'k C
caught as a victim and so were we.and th- ie-s a nagleot over many

years. And trying to play catch-up when you are so far behind you get

into problems like you do in football And so we developed troubles* The

Democrats were budget, 59% I guess it was, Wa. u e to npzak ~f. They

couldn't get their appropriations act through without a great deal of


O great deal of '
debate) e~ddiscussion. We ~t together a recommendation

gave it to us,
with the governor in a hurry and they anA just about as fastas

we put it together, they said the5eL4-give you what you want. And there

were problems te-be correCted because again we didn't aike the staff

The Democrats had the staff. We didn't have the committee structures

They had the committee structures. We didn't have the personnel.

Y\ad v GW o'\--
to work on something as demanding as the budget for the ,tate,

but everything, as far as the governor'relationship walked along fine.

until such time that we got involved,in recognizing that the legislature

Republicans themselves,
became knowledgeable that we were not truly a meaningful legislative body.

'-When did that happengand what brought that recognitionon?

J: Well, it started happqping as soon as &- got there. tarted realizing

-tbte there was something wrong. That we vto- a committee meeting and

g. A e, k:i^ would
havig- an experience where the- ~~ legilatji introduce a bill and when-he

started making questions about the bill, he would confess that it wasn't

his bill 'Ter it was Secretary of State's bill. That he was

in the audience and that- would answer any questions you would have.

He- began to ask w-ee"Who is it that develops and passes

legislation in the state of Florida. Is it the legislature or is it



J: the cabinet that we rubber stamp whatever the cabinet wants?

thh gt rro san-. and e didn't have the

staff. We didn't have the professional people to go to. seek advice

on legislature- and-en labor o management or schools or university

system or transportation or social problems or whatever it might be.

There wasn't anybody yeoutol+ because there were no professionalism in it

so b^ O-V U I e/ 5$1
whatever. We were necessarily recognized., recognized which-was-g aeal

r '.j&vLu^ I\\^J s&L-fA tefth-
Sthat we ha -t-have a little .bit--eatra .in our own

but La y ed / wLP>
professions, .,e-- w (e had -been leaning on- other people for helping

to dvelop legislation and-- Nproblems that existed in our

atate. And we didn't have it to turn to. So consequently the
with the cabinet a; ao
3egisature had been sort of a rubber stamp and they would -4i

ha-at home,
there every two years t what the cabinet wantedand come backandE

either run or not run again. You can get the people reelected /XV-_

and go up and permit them .-the-ci. again, and so e got working

even Q-\ just Republicarl This was something that

there was a new bref&e in 'V4 We had a -b change -in the -kinof

people that served in legislature. They were for the most part younger


J: and most of them were more formal education than some of the past

legislators did. They were more involved in wanting to see things

dhangedThey wesaeot so interested in just ssead--status quo not

going *i and
rocking the boat. They weren't opposed togetting involved in ar

that hidden days before that. ,C 4-
controversyg nd legislation.was i hen

leadership in the Democratic Part, the leadership in the Republican

Pary, Y)e sat around and talked about what we needed. We talked to V-(

citizens in- state'and national citi zens group, state government,
various national organizations that were involved in te~r~ oam state VDUV' '

I-v S Ce JO vx D 10 q- *u
er-v Aho pe-+liy state government And they had- C

The wea ;ve. mre of what ey' needed "WherS-atE -the professional staff/

was neede:a- as far as committees, 4oeering committees, what you needed

as far as ----- legislation, what you needed as far as expense

monies go and suggested salary ranges for the amount of time that was

spent. We had studies made on it. And all this the governor told us

all the way along that he supported everything that we were doing to

improve the legislative branch of the government. And that he thought

that it was an excellent idea. And the Republicans agreed with the

Democrat majority '-


J: d would work together. We would not use \ minority voice to Eigh

or to try to gpt him in trouble if they did things to strengthen

W \\ legislative O~Ld4(
the legislature, 41p to the very last moment thesalary increase which the-sdate-p

S.we~ the starting of the split between the governor and the Republican

problems his
legislators. He had with the party, but not with'elect "ed

had cemOwra td. 4
Republicans say..~and he to our minority leader and others

in various fitrlde that ~ ot eighteen, why net-twelve, and that he was

twelve At
certainly in favor of a.thousand dollar sa..lary.. One time, I think ttmfi

he even suggested that .he-had-atie for-the governor's salary.. hatt
/ 10

fifty pe ent of whatever the governor made. Therefore, could raise

the governor's salary and raise our own/and it wouldn't wasn't so

much trouble the general public. And then, at the time that the

bill ? that he was thinking about vetoing
salary.was passed, we just got the word back out A it.

Wuck"-t ht-h3 zs4 ime -
he Republican minority voted for A We passed around a

list with everybody's name on it VWe& had to gu-a. way before the thing iA

you favor/the t. I' "
happened .salary bill, and-~hey-av-rhed- twelve, do you want ten?,

do you want seventy-five hundred do you want fifteen, eighteen#,. -

,`';,the consensus of both parties, largest number of votes that was A-



J: ?- by thLis- time~ 5 'P b this time
twelve thousand. He had commit nments this time ) Ma
nV- 60 i6 the man
Schultz who was much daf efutyla He was that really,

I think, caused the head-on collisions, the partisanship of the legislature, ~~

S.Cr>^u r efttyv 'i -u> in
the-ki4nd-t thing of the past, *.= legislat., that work. unity

toward good legislature .4ithe state of Florida /recognizing that we

were there /We weren't going to go away. and. -'t \tt' -

4^ ^i/vdL) it etQt Vq LAA
really felt that if- something$happened and it was like a boil and treated

the thing -and- in a few days it isappeare and W wouldn't have this

problem. These thblge-4-thee weird people would be gone. And Schultz

accepted people and &i-. having some rights and moved us into decent

minority offices. In fact, I had as my office the second term the

minority office. I-th*iAn one little small cubicle asT'-ee

vat f-4the office/that he gave to the Republican Party in i "

Then Schultz wa&- a complex of offices, the staff that really started-5

making the Republican 'eminatie- c hold their head up, useful to

the legislative branch and useful to the people they- represent,

erwe represented. -oz i -the. people had the right to

dir ect 'he-puble if they want to and they had the right to di-scue-them-

tt o i 57j


J: Schultz recognized allthis/ and worked with it. We were working in

harmony, wthwh4ie our principles aad philosophies7 never asked that.

You--gt-a-i--ferent-etate* in the legislature d' maihao-
our-political philosophy, Senator 1 ^

AThe governor, I think took advice from.Guqrney, The., he got tbe / 1F'-
[/ 9"" o^ I Ce." t he got some _Trov
J -response to hat he was hearing ia Orange

County, because the bed of opposition to any expenditurefe- money .' r

any: purposes o-t whatsoever, particularly a --fa- ab -t6 legislate)
almost totallyif Orange County. here it started, 3Ak5
was mgTi i restrictedbe- where initiation of it was made. And

Broward County became almost as bad, but it rvffly ja siee
1 J ( -/. S 4-t4 o r since he began i/
-e was from Orange County and represent ag.him Congress got

he got 2< -l h o
calls ,.wires, he got letters and stuff,a flew owF Tallahassee
,I'LL )flAt' l IC)f
and put ltgetheo-gn$ the governor mad a serious mistake Ls ? e

K- You said you think that-you flew into Tallahassee.

J: I saw him personally. Because at a later date,

4e /.u-tL his veto and so forth, &
when it was all taking place and he-wae overriding, f.

Gurney was speaking at the country club

and after the dinner he asked to see me and pu me back in the back

room 58


el he wanted me
J: in front of the little cubicleand told me that, ;

to introduce
to go into the legislature the next day andAtf bill that they just

theirs from thirty-four to
raised, forty -two and I said that I would go back in and

de 4
introduce a bill to 'crease ours to sixand he'll go back to Washington

te-~ppe&it Congress to reduce yours to thirty-five.

I What was his reaction?

J: His reaction was that I was being foolish. And I more or less told him

that and I don't see eye to eye. I wouldn't

give him ten percent
(t 'L tooSpecause k"' c
That's when we started ouaw g.. 4ng thought/ I think eat

poms- besevO /s\want you to go in there and introduce
i gOi L senator.
this bill and I baisd fine if that's what you wantb After all

you' re a senator and you and I know youie senator.

I just outright told him that
and when we gave him opposition)wb /w I wouldn't even think

of doing Jt. And totalling u iUdJ ete

-Do you know that Senator Gurney,if I can call that"applying pressure"

apl OzC -o t4e. n otheru-J-- - 1 6O
appl d that same kind of pressure ther'i oduu ,



J: I know that he talked to oth-e-abe t-. He called the minority leader

- at the same time? 1 0-U i r a, -i D s T C ,.
J: before he-cou l ask me to inteduce the-foeign-legi
f V .r -' O 1,
1 was 0 .b &was
ai talked to him several timeswhen It .happening e t -,k '
%TAX7V iK*P& Vw, ^ .*'. ,f^ -00A N 1
J: dzWOttq and th calledsenator to te minority leader. Saying that this

Shta this was
was a horrible thing to do. ~ going to cause the ruination of the

in Flaida,
Republican Party, -Sayng t1at we were going to be blamed for it that, the

Democrats were.going to twist it around to blame it for us. And that they

were going to sandbag us on the beas which they did not. Som democrats

;adnt--vote-, some Republicans.didn4t.-

i Who else in the party received Gurney's, Senator QFney's 8-

J: I would imagine that he talked to several senators -frem-se- -- k

/Wt &' that ---- e
-pthe Senate. I'm sure.he talked to Ray Osborn Governor with Kirk.

fO r /
I imagine t- t he talked to Savage but- I don't know, t-+he-factt that

Savage was-like

c1/0 ^ocLVuL r.Ct- /A
but on the basis of what you do know, did he talk to you and he did talk to
\ -- A

J: I know that he probably contacted... I remember at the time that some of the

Orange County people, di the ones who- were really ott- like Hewpd- Gibson

and some of the others, had been talked to by Senator Uurney. He more or less


J: convinced tem that this was a suicidal type f- approach '&o Y-4"

-a-ctdicrotte salary

- Did governor Kirk before thedea was announced publically as there any

pressure applied from his office or from personal offie?- Was there

any advance warning that this do wa--?

J: *. -tfhere-wes o advanced warning whatsoever. He allowed us to continue on

the plan that we had with his full support.The rumor came up, We-don'Lt kno-hAr m

YI- 14 V vt
it came up and-it was vetoed) and- hof -w ring -vato--it.

What. did the rumor quote come up qauI- ae u..--

J: Somebody just remember my house 0 somebody said, yIu-know, w-'f L -B tha-t-

the governor is going to veto the bill, and Don Reed said, ib true the governors"

gave me a commitment. I said ou have got-t go talk to him. You --mth, e

h d rumor h iande g .ed uh, but even

at that we were not you know, totally at that particular point offended We

could see from the rumor that maybe he had run into a political

problem, maybe he could give us some information that we weren't

the time
knowledgeable of at.present.that would show us that we had errored and that we could

correct it and sustain his vetogpbut, of course, as you know the gentlemar

requested a (4 joint session deliveredhis veto message.He climbed up into



J: the rostrum of-the speakers chair and delivered one of the most blistering

Sveto messages that I have ever heard anybody give and didn't separate

the sheep from the goats that he thought that one side was goats and

side was sheep. He took a brush and painted everynj black. He said

6 l <( to
that the whole thing was a conspiracy vet, to feather our own beds andApocket

the monies and I think didn't use -that exacting themes- but he did use the

term that we were peopwar caught with our hands in the droj and that type

of thing. And when he called us crooks, both Republicans and Democrats,

and then that's when I think the that was it. We were finished from ta

standpoint. From that point on, we -o-vw his veto very quickly and

I think the press was probably right, myb We were ht te-d~ that

argument, And I think that we had every reason to be angry7 because if

the governor woaid not veto it, ,he governor woud cone out mnd support

evey.bo4dg e ,Kowledge of what-we- had and what we were attempting to do,

I don't think that there had been very little flak whatsoever in this thing.

DV\4b ,\I
W-ith the legislative salary increase, the truth would have been told.

,because he knew the truth. He knew that they had been taking money

under the table and doctoring expenses. They had county supplements 0-

Jacksonville, Hillsborough County, Dade County, Browqrd and Palm Beach.



in the state MtI-
J: d-no citizen knew about I got a $1500 check

that I was elected in '67 by County Commissioners. and had no knowledge

that there was a county supplement for legislators in this county.

As far as I was concerned, it must be a mistake. I didn't pay that

II(e t to, T k-'J LkU
much taxes. He-said, ''"''-gong-tvge1tyea county supplement."

^ \- T ', .4 c < "
He-said,"when that happen y k years agog the delegation T C~O-J Us '

was whoaly-e-(L 6c O (
"ase -it the other party They decided that a

hundred dollars a month and expense money was not enough, They needed more money,

b^/ 'L)Ot ^
go they passed a little bi-tand said the county commissioners who

hzid tho urong typ' arc -a yig- $1500 a session. And when you added up

LAwo ot- t~ e when
$600 oa-batefrh-. expenses /(you added up a $1500 county supplement,
when you added up the periaem you had $100 t came to $10,800

1040 D-' ( lje
approximately. -oupay- taxes on $1200e Y threw away all county supplements
\,, 0 o ,',. 1 . ,' -,-/,
We-did-away with all undo~toaed- expenses forever and i.'..' "

and statutes, -L ?L, '- " D d
books.ad tax a developped'a salary of $12,000 ust like every other

citizen would. And netwise you ended up probably with less money per

month than you had under the old system which was the under the table deal.

Which the new breed efair- considered to be sort of,, 1J9 \'A ,/);e



J: L(t T-3 / \k
to get tn saying I'm hunting for a job that pays $100 knowing full

itZ@L {, 0.:,-- d., 5UA'.,."'"'
well that the total pay was $10,800 whenQhe-was-4 and that was

in this county. In Duval it was more and Dade it was more and ampa it

was more, because it had larger county supplements nd li t an

l he realized that-he had been discussing-and so it was just one of those

thingsluncalled for) that the should calL us in and that Senator

Gurney was the one who discussed it with him. He should have called us

in and counseled with us before making a decision. Agai he felt that, l

,-yesry senator's advice statewide candidate elected offidal that eien had

his finger in the .e3. Of course, at that time he had K Crio4A n

in Orange County and George Anderson as State Finance chairman
+-U Ck^e',\ e'V Vowe\, ke R4 0; /Ld b
from.Orange County. So Senffta running for reelection uwas- ~eI1 Lt 5

all around Gurney,-an Gurney' people at that time, so maybe A O

- Before we talk about the upcoming '70 campaign, let's 1et back and let

me ask you something about -the salary issue and the veto/ as it occurred.

presumably, as a legislator it was a high political issue and it had to
be-,.had to be handled with.extreme amount of care by both Democrats and

Republicansand when you -brot ghf yourself a salary increase, not sure


had a study made
J: It was in the papers that we were discussing it and thea we were
that would
that we were that would
.considering legislation, raise the salary to12,000 according to

L C4 1 (z Lo uL
the new constitution ^e-- to d itbut we would check with each

other a4 we would talk to each other about ew-4do you get the letters.

and-we just would not get but one or two letters', three letters, that would

even mention the salary~ until the governor made a political issue,

it was not the issue in the minds of people, I don't thi~k- and I still

believe i -w abs e a that particular point !ad time, that-it had not

become something people were very concerned about. And if it had been
T 1t: ^:lA ijt^ ^OM b.
handled differently maybe- en-maybenbeen that clncern4. Some yes,

but not the majority of citizens,and he said things in speech after speech

after he vetoed-it that continued to fire up the em options of the people,
-i'r fl.- s t the emmotions 4J "-
and he caught up the e6 tions o1-hisj V)e a f. fhis press

releases and things that had-to happened afterwards I > -i c t f ;)

A- <
political issue.

while we are talking about the administration, before we get to the re-election,
of course,
while we're in a four year period,,it probably would have been whl*e clear

to the govern*ent that there was no way Ci ar ("&- A '

,, Sq^^^^-^ 'y^'1~`: ~ ii


all tax payers understand iti/ c2A-- c

I can under 3_ stand hs concern. I would imagine and this is really

.-because I would like for you to tell me.
what I want to ask I shouldn't imagine/ DiduRepublican leadership in

the House and in the Senate which had) the- the year of the governor--

ds 7t turned out you didn't apparently. Did you have to reassure the Democrats

specifically that the governor was not going to veto and did this have

-^uadA_ eie -- k ec
any rupturing effect in- Democratic and Republicanism id-Gurney-

cme down and de this?

J: NoPwe did, of course, have an agreement with the Democrats that we would

break- F/azLe 6WF
not lead them down a ri rose path so to speak. And then. ao on

hti-at the last minute and leave them with the responsibility of-the

salary. Er us to take it, but to be in a position ee-we voted against it

and our governor vetoed and they are the ones who forced the override

and one thing and another. They did want assurance. They -aw-it m-poiss-ibe

soe-peeeible check and see what the governor is-doing for it.

Because he realized that it had the basis of being an issue that was

of geeat consequence to k future in politics. Quite frankly,

none of us would f-- uem



I'm sure bt- when he organized it, he must have felt -that~thrc .was

nsme prnhlem thxsci, What about in the legislature, wh what kinds of

reaction went on and-what do you as a legislator and asl for a more

permanent funding e. his -ik- employees? Were there any particular

party issue incidents that.come to mind ?

J: When he came to the legislature/ asking for more permanent funding

K- Did he not go to the legislature and sk for the legislature to appoint

thirty 6F A people ."Ale l-f? nd put it on a permanent statewide basis? < ''

J:I-d inu eal I don't recall that ever occurring. I don't recall him

wanting us to pay or financeig- any of his citizen war on crime."

He wanted the legislature to go ahead and act to get the permanent law

enfor cement agency.

but that didn't occur before the--

J: Not to my knowledge)because even when he passed it, he didn't pass it

to& many people to start off with. 1 w funding. He got started but the

fund didn't establish positions foagood

- That is the second question that comes along. Why-ou are limited by

>' 66


\ your total revenues. Many times the .legislature would initiate a

program and not be able to fund it at the time they initiate, i- -tat

happens at the university many times. where they might say we are going

to put in a college of-pharmacy at this particular university, but

Sr 6ting
then they just put a little money up -et..g. it organized.

A 4nd that's what.we did with because of limitation of funds.

We made a set-up and sae -em4 started saying, "let's get some people

in and start putting it together, at putting together an organizational

structure, writing job descriptions and the-next time/ we'll establish
S1c4(itype of thing because
the positions that they'll need out in the field, next time we'll

tmov e -aYPn ~ .l / /ct trying to live within the budget

because he was 'also Jfor things like this to be established but

'*L3as pretty well kL
he was also insisting and so were the legislature.insisting that he- live
within a certain revenue 'al ^-{' or'
within a certain revenue plani because you know we the-part-y is a

our ywewuA C
little bit different in that we can't exceed -reeeder. we have

to go -ohold-back ur -reeepds.- and I like that/ because we are limited

by what we take in in revenues. So then you are force'to adopt certain

priorities5 Iut your money where you think your priorities are and in some

instances, in this particular instance


J: the priority was just not as great Education,*transportation, ln

.. to ____.... .... -Cor
so ong_ ut .get the concept started ouG-seeretaries fo-tod th bills

and said you know, you won't need to ,vote for the bill. You know

good and well we don't have anything to publieh. They yeah, you vote

for it anyhow. It will make the people happy that we accepted the concept.

y never get around to funding it, w'll still be happy that yeu t -J

established \
thought enough to pass the bill that, the concept. I'm still

saying-that I don't like that particular pe.e4.. If you say that-something

is needed, then you.ought to recognize tfe- honesty that's benrg-

S^ espee^iy-to do the job. O9 )t 7 a lea4 / o' d 2 but7

I think that i-a the basic reason that he uccldrn't get along-w4tkr-the staff

find out who youare going to appoint first. He didn't give a

dam, under his total control. As you put in some of the cabinet people eP~c C

ye" were still fighting cabinet, chief executive, phi-alop that we had

to compromise hi& Republicans fromhat standpoint. We finally

had to accept the fact that there would be cabinet people involved in

decisions and controls over ua2t kL&,A c,.- fC(-,-c A'^'<

- OK so I suppose that we ought to ask before we move into the campaign what--
S-C -t r v incident eP poal iae iniduek Lt' -
4s salary veto.issue ;don't want to call it an incident i' .

68 '^t ^ ^ W.D^ \^W- i.


that issue occurred and it was over Ath, what kinds of things happened

toward the end of it? Did anything happen between then and 1973?

Did anything else happen Made this controversy between the legislature

and the governor? UOVI4 ,

J: I was a little bit wrong in my memory dating other problems,

but we did have some problems even before the salary things where we

got involved as legislators with the governor's differences with the

party, even though we,*,

/- How did that happen?

J: Well, the party people would complain to us. 0 f course, I was, also

app&ota. as well as elected and and so forth abot his

expanes~eo-of monies, about his failure to take into consideration

recommendations to the part as far as endIft4aO go appointments

and things of this nature. And not working with parties as close as

they should. And then his attitude toward the legislature itself

on occasions (L-, C LLkt Ce of Oerterae,
Aa he-was sort of looking down his nose at thia-1meatiz~arm *r-endhp

government. And I do remember) I tried my best to remember exactly what

had happenedX ft happened before the veto and probably in '68.



J: He decided that his population had gone in sort of a He'd been

-Afftedr a post when he went in and then after the inaugeration,

after the special election)in and down the road in '68 his popularity

had beuan to fall particularly with Republicans. Young Republicans
/ 0- or V, t^v-/
and said and-ptt-
were upset with him r some things that he had done O~i-' doing.

hat kinds of things < ...'2 e,#' I j / c ',

J: -ppointmentsf ey would hear Republicans not being considered for this

or '-
job and the governor not working with party funds and things, he Young

Republicans were the base of the party machinery discussed earlier

/Tey were the first to become offended if we-didn't work with this

group that had gotten the Republican senior party

S- And yet you ye4 today, at least, applaud him for making nonpartisan


J: I applauded him for making good appointments. I'm not

saying that he couldn't have found qualified Republicans that might

have been able to do the job just as well. I don't think that it was

just so much in every instance that we got disgusted. It's just we

the appointments that the lack of respect and involving himself in

things of the party, because it was in '68 that we had the selection of


FLA PERS -3ABC .. 9-

J: the National Committee and we met in Orlando.


J: Now the selection ,(ur problemreally started ith the governor before

the salary veto took place as far as the selection of national committeee~-
o dom i4k '"'eCl\, supporting
and the meeting took place in Orlando.The party was ,Bill Cramer/

running for re-election national committeeman. They were opposing

anjt Morris, one wh- ~had.be l he background up to this point?

national wo
e committeeman and committeemen were elected throughout

the state on a statewide election by Republicansbut we ha4 as a party under

Murphin had supported both Democrats who were also a little bit tired

of the statewide election for the two positions, hanged the election

laws., the party to adopt rules for the election of the

rational Fommitte--nen and/ committee women. and we passed that in the
that this was done
interim and this was the first time after the '67 sessionthat we would

actually operate under the selection process/ of electing one by our own

group rather than having the Republicans at large be able tobeeausaqe.f course,

before it took a very wealthy person to travel throughout the state and

Eaine Morris from over in Sarasota was National Committeewoman. She



4AAZ-C i-K1-t
J: had been with G. Harold Alexander atthc t-ime of-~t Fairfield .iyaa

group, so there was no way we eeus1d-support Helene. And we were

supporting Pala Hawkinsj W-en I say we, the party structure itself"
for re-
and Bill Cramer. Helene Morris was running on her own election.

The Pinellas group thought that he was wrong in-haking-a party to

support SBi Hawkins because where did she come )from) di she ever

4-- 7 and Mary Gszaeing was the ,first woman legislator in the state

of Florida from the Republican standpoint, at least, and ePrl .,

4-in the state, )a ;-....
president oftWoman's Federation and figured she ought to be the V~rI'

nam>..Well, in the first place she was busy enough being legislator

And we thought, Paula would be more effective as national Committeev)OlO- --or

Wembter On-he-eothr-hand, I nominated Pa3ct that particular

meeting and then Mary was nominated and also Helene. And Mary did''- V*

Paula didif r-an-in the first election, but what got everybody

mad at Claude Kirk was that he had decided to come in and O 0fuo

n .gh. his support behind Mary Grii for the/dationalCommitteeWman

to bring in a very nice guy, Reed in Martin County Net Reed, who is a

fabulous person whcaeverybody loves/ and great environmentalist.

iaanything that he does, Xe does a good job and dedicated job on it.


J: but the governor came down oe walkie talkie, that's the first time

that we had had the opportunity to have walkietalkies thrust at us OQA

people walking around that were representing the governor's office.

During the time that we were trying to make our minds up, the governor

participated in applying political pressure to various members of the

state committee as far as taking them off advisory committees We-d-
lI4st-cAi any T7
go with him; not -i-stag of their recommendations op- appointments

that might come up in the future if they didn't go with him as far as U0o

he wanted the-to--drtia th the Natiioal committee He even had given

one of our young Republicans, the position with the

turnpike authority. And iowe was there. working the hotel for the

0o .'S..,, i well
governor's two teaaen and I remembered so .because e -I had a great

for H al "
deal of respectfor his abilities, an particular as executive secretary

of the group and or a person to head up an organization, Eployee

type of position. And we had quite an .argument that night in the hotel

room because I said, How in the world could you enoy yourself

being up here working against the very people that you worked with t~hepe to

help the party get established and know that our

FLA PERS 3ABC k4ic4.C,1 l> //-i^ i^ t1'-;.

J: : choices for the NCo discussed early and

were in total agreement, and he was explaining to me the realities

of lifeeating and having a job. And I later regretted that I was

really trust as hard as I did because that is something I guess that

has to be taken into consideration in -de at the time.

-AAnd, ut we did win. And winning)it left some scars that caused his

popularity that-the Republican Party begin)~ld already begun to fade

fade even farther. The young Republicans were participating there

watching the thing, I- thkd dt-t t t is where their erosion began

to take place to ame degree. And so to get it back to the Tallahassee

situation, we got back to Tallahassee later. He decided to establish

what he called a-thunk session thank- -thank--tank whatever

he referred to it, .he would invite from both houses people to 'C4

fimeneion and we would sit around and discuss thingsand we would have

the pulse of tiAings in our district, in our area,. e could benefit

and we could benefit from this type of informal discussion,which -wa

we thought a important as 46 he-leacie idea and so that the first one

.was called and we arrived at the meeting and we were going to have cl~t-

daepth --imenlR n and then go into the living room and sit and talk



J: and discuss things.

X- Can you date .- the meeting?

J: It was in '68 what date, I don't know. All I can remember, in trying

to date it was that I was still living the Prince.h a e Hotel. an we

moved out of there when the manager got shot so I could finddout -he

when he got shotthBe* I went with Don Reed 'tucome-t the house we had

Ray Osbore-, Mary GrizzJ. Don Reed, aid myself. So from the Senate

Bill Young.
I think we had I'm not so sure we ,oe I can't remember 0 qL

It's not really important, but we had an interim. and- then as we finished

dinner, I remember the governor looking up from the table down

where.I was sitting and saying "what are you doingk You're not even

\\ /'^ minority
my frieid,a t-I said I was selected by my leader to ?come here,

with \a / ,O'
and so I am here the house people. Then we left the He wasn-1-
ug l- y -; he j-...... U"

gLyr a Ju king .-about- it, He was just laughing and saying

this type of thing. He went into,/E everything was beautiful at dinner.

We didn't have steak; we had some kind of a rice and I was e

to governor about-thar steak s At least b ut we went into the

living room and sat I own in our chairs) and I think that-he might have -

eOu-^f c^T &`-Y^-


Pe in-
J: had on a sweater was very formal and delightful/ to start off

with,and Ito start off w -I'd like to find out how I am doing.

t are people saying about me in the areas that-you live in. hat

you hear7 How am I doing as your governor?" And-they start off -b

maybe Ray Osbor then, rnaha, Mary Grizz mo more or less u know,

you fhaea few problems .andthere they're nothing of any magnitude, and

things are going fairly good for you. We think 4kha- you are

\\ to
all right. They got Don Reed about third or fourth in the group and
Don told me, "how do you think that I am doing?" 'Well, you come across

arrogant, egotistical people begin not to like youana a person to person

basis do pretty goodrbut you are just too arrogant. ,you know, you are

the Skd i -C
losing. people and you are losing the legislature. And then he turned

Qf t L&- ^Low dw h
theargume aa little bit about Yther he was arrogant or whether

he was anything that he said,They got into sort of a field debate and I

can't for the life of me remember the things that were said, but
began to
at this particular point after the hair on the back of his neckealmost

stand up, rushed out in the middle of the living room and put his finger

down to the carpet and he run a line across it? and-lokeebaWackand said

you are either over here with me or you can get the hell out.


Jtge-rfheJd out -Ii h l r f -thdIe1oT -TivnIgrToom and ipu- is finger-.

--~doto tihe carpet) - -

W 4A k- a8 left the door open.
and we got up andS-^' got- to the door, and leftAnd I got up

to nmy pleaser and walked to the door and the governor said,"James

where in the hell are you going?\ I said, "I'm following my leader."
And we left. And because of our former experiences with -.governor)

1o Its a a little argument and he would come and find you

later andcome back and talk about it some more. So we said let's go

-en. back to the motel room)and go out some place and have a few

drinks- and sort of hide from him so tiat if he decides f4hart he wants

us back we won't spend all night listening to him at the dimonsin.*

So we head out for while and went back to the motel rather late

and Xfathcrao-id- twA jthe next day V P- sA -. like just tired,

njiid [IIJ I w e al3~ .o7-fre d Evcrything goA fr-
~t~c-c~t-bu QAIg2I /~l~~ 0. T a -t1 0A) YJUt MaQ it0 au

with pretty well from a that one experience, bute was

just- ex'Chfs the governor's inaMility to take criticism; And

total belief in himself and that he was right in anybody elses opinion.. *

He asked for criticism but then gave it to him)he didn't appreciate

it. Of course, I should have knoawthen, as I have known all my life A-



J: this is true of most of us. you can say, TellKme the truth,

then you tell somebody the truth)and they're not too happy

that you told it to them, that you relate to them,hut that experience

and the one in Orlando was differences that we had with the governor

prior to the One thing to clear up on the salary thing

was I didn't think that was the way to go. I went with the majority.

I went with the- .the same way our system works. Aen it comes to

electing officials we have to believe that the person

who gets the majority of votes is the representative of all the people

at that particular-time. The rest of us did not get a taarity (A

voteThey accepted that this is the way our government works, And

when we voted on eo salary thing/ O we -yoed -i the $12,000

salary at that particular time I had suggested the salary commission
type thing ato aag T' To o0 KAu ~o-
4which they rejected but now i-,t becoming sc ethin- you know with the

committee appointed by the governor to study salaries of the judicial

officers executive officers legislative officers,and to make

rt< i-a"s that ought VF-
recommendations of what we-should be paid, inincreases5o-

allowed., ~ e ,"(0 / after he following election
to be o-makoyt go into effect
if the legislature didn't reject it-,-Y!^L

J: similar to what the Federal governmentA And I

thought at the time because a cross section of Florida citizens

should get together to study the jobsof legislature and

did f eYW^^ 0- change the o t
decide if we were- e4ig--te salary, if so and how much

and what. And I even thought that they'd come up with a better

salary than we could get- It-wee jy experience with citizens groups

is thatAthey get behind you and bother you for a couple of weeks,

hey come away with a sort of a new assurance that' .

S- appreciation of the work that is being done.

'- abso .l Aly c V one 0
t Because I cantt records for two'year period and

every hour that I spent in legislative duties, and one year, I remember

specifically, I owi -48 hours more fore-mre- than an eight-hour day)
you see)
five day a week,with two week vacation, in purely legislative involvement, Y-

ties of my job. Qnd I didn't say that everybody did that because
approximately -
everybody didn't, but we based the salary on / fifty per cnt of the

person's :ime being spent in legislative duties. And that the average

executive in Tallahassee, in a position in a department with the salary

was $27,~00. o.a'. EvSn the report came to the conclusion

$12,000 to $15,000 --- IC7Te4 l .- _


5'. ----- -____

4: OK, so the issues exp4eit. 5 5 i % ^r -^ '

I suppose that we ought to move to 1970. And the governor is going to

number one,
run for reelection. irequestion was there any consideration, anybody

did anybody consider trying to convince governor Kirk that he es~kid not

run for re-election?

J: No. Not to my knowledge. hey- don't recall anybody talking together

and saying, 4 .-L ~XLv .iot eeA ~,t

K: Was there anyone talking among themselvesconsidering that the governor

Az should not run for re-election? Not that I recall because I didn't

have any opposition A as far as his, o-f-i -bejig- governor I did ot get

-s.,atisfied with it_-_--

K-: OK.and how did Skip Eckerd, Claude Kirk split How--t happened-

as far as you know? What role did you play? How did all this 'STh

J: Skip Phale thing, I think{ Skip MePhllas decided that the governor
could not win again in his own mind. He also2
upset that h selected Ray Osborn instead of himself as Lieutenant Governor.

He thought that since he had been p a without even telling people



J: he had been slipping into the Gove or's office advising the Governor

things even beyond what we suspectedand I think that since he

ft the.-se-oppse he top assistant's recommendations that

he advised him on other things behind tie scenes that he would be the

natural t{ r tJ l -
lieutenant governor's choice and-wu-ld resolve what he was looking

making his mind up) 7-7 was going to be lieutenant governor. He seemed

to be hurt and-. when Ray OsbifKi-4as elected. So I think that he Lt O

kl-w.^^ Ir V4, C
wanted sort of to get back at the governor the governor itghkt

consider him for lieutenant governor. I think that-after he went around

the state for Awhile and talked about running for governor, that

these Cramer voices felt that this guy will never make it. Even-though.

hell U11 vr vegiv lr-l t -pat. he hasn't got the financial

backing) and he hasn't got the other thin ,s it takes to be a real

reliable candidate for governor, Kirk is going to get re-elected.

And of course,they wanted him t beat it. And I think many of the party

people wanted him to-beat-- it someone else other than Claude Kirk.

t WU ,,"C( O '4'41
I said I didn't hear from the legislative party an~d o I think that o~

Cramer, particular from that faction par tiat-whe- they selected

-6 I 3 1 h e, d ; A T W'o
Eckerd, I think that Edkerd had the financial strength tnt'-he could spend


J: on-any necessary qv o d V64 ra r \4- ev6 V

to give the governor a real fight on it. And the, by that time the

governor along with the eomitt h close ally with 4ay-, of course

Gurney ramer was going to run for United States Senate. It was supposed

to be his from all the agreements that had been made. He spuld be unopposed

in his race for the United States Senate. He stepped aside for Gurney, aJ

ie&had waited long enough. Now was his time to go.~.)\A Gurneys and

to resign av
Claude Kirk's conspiracy, they got the iudge Carswellto announce that he

was going to run for United States Senate, which was probably one of the

'c., I think the
most 'pbli4e things that happened all. Because-Judge had a life-time job,

andget somebody to resign rndto-t run for

something he didn't have a chance and Id)n't think

t et they were thinking of the judge. I think that-they were thinking of

Claude Kirk and themselves. Thinking that they could get a well-known

SW b t-t-ei-C
man like Judge Carsell to b-aet-ve on the other side and to get in on this

W lead
side, and to lead the ticket; that he- Auld Kirk back to success.
if he didn't
That he might lose otherwise have somebody on the ticket that

gould bring the Democrats into the polls. And the North Florida people %A


J: ithn appuinte the Judge would be ale to do&but I met the judge awn I've

talked with him and I don't have any bad feelings abe"t him at all. I don't

think he had any idea at all what was happening.

-: What prompted. ',

X ^'t V, ^ P^'^ "4e
Jr antieipat d- conspiracy. It was their thinking andjust talked to him and

convinced him that he was the man who ought to do it and somehow were able

to using his ego that he must have t"ha all of us have for him to get

involved )r A -

V-: What prompted you to run for the Stqte Senate? You did run for the

State Senate,-didn&*t=vu in '70?

J: Well.

0 4' / lism
-t: J41 all this faction was going on around you all the

controversy going around you, what consideration prompted you to run for

the State Senate?

J: All this factionalism ig-ftet as
Sto do it.
heavy and I made my decision. Later got heavier and heavier but at that

time, -was no :ffort running and I don't think that at that time I made
~iaI $
the decision announced that there -would -bn hard-we- involve

becausee made the decision and tik-Phaltas made the decision to nm for



J: governor, because we have rIeegred the -. umnl -- Jlaw that gotten

-paat and so Me Piaitus wea saying that he was going to run for the

governor's office)would be required to step down in-the Senate Otibt

It was an off-election year. There was nobody running for office 'c co c

Ls>oA- except those who were resigning to run for some other office. And you

had Senator.,.Congressman now, Bill, -

J: No, not Bill Leonard, it's over in Pinellas County. Bfill YP ng.

SBill Young was a State Senator. He was resigning and the House member

B Ware was stepping up to run for that and -m- seat.MehPh~erll was

from that area, aid the most ppuba part area of- Palm Beach CountyJ and

e was resigning. And nobody else in my house delegation was interested

in moving up. ,Mr. e, I thought that Don-Lee shetl be the one.

He was a minority leader, but nevertheless he had more years of experience

that anybody else in the delegation and he had not ever run for a higher

S and-.had never run,
office. He talked about every office in the book.a~d I went to him and,

// 0('j o .lt ,\ ,i]
sail are you going to run for MPhaMlla seat? He said, I don't know. : oap

beside- because I don't think 4hat-we ought to let bha. go and lo e a

K bh- with experience -
seat when we got people in themjmqa delegation that can runt r



J: I talked to the other man in the delegation and said are you interested
de *,a lwql,tf.u t Jo -^' in it? And he came back and said, no, I like being my mayer yeu-e-

JA /Ijmy ego and the vacancy being there I said well, shoot nobody else will go,

I'll go. And maybe they didn't want to run for the reasons you talk about.

There was going to be a bad year. Kirk wasn't going to be that popular.

There was controversy in the party, but the office was still there. And
jo me
uh, somebody still had to r nit. I decided it would be* lie didn't like

it too much. My wife didn't. She thought that I ought to stay in the fouse.
a5 7 t wi/afe %l<^
And for Monday she was probably right as it turned out. put
at he time I still thought in spite of that because politics don't

actually believe that all these things are going to hurt them. They believe

their popularity is there. They believe their popat. ty 4i here and they-

,you know that is one of our things- we have to be loved,
believe that they are loved and when you believe that you are loved that

much, you don't believe that somebody elses problems are going to cause

you to be turned down, but they do work out that way. It is just one of

those th ings/ but that's all right with me.

K -you lost in a close election. And then you went back to the party.

J: let's say liaison

K -: right. 85


J: ou see, we had the party elections. I told you about in seventy.

And the party people ran in the first primary. September. All the

party offices were selected. Sve-_ had worked fe-rAmPState with

Tommy as-en-indicator

and we.particularly in the ninth Congressional District, I had made

a personal visit with him thaf~ each person in that district introduced

him to them, talked to them about it, we flew off to --I had considered

making a run for the state chairmanship myself and bq only on the

basis that the state chairman become the paying job. I couldn't

afford to just leave my business and become state chairman on a full

time basis which I thought was almost necessary to have in a state with

seven million people. So I went to a meeting and I believe again

in Winter P ark-i n-Orlando area told them that I was thinking about

making a run for it, discussed it with the people 1 trusted all the year

that.were involved in this type of decision and the name was brought up

of T ommy Thomas. We-were in Panama City. I said that I had heard of

him, but that I had never met the mman and they said that before that

you make your mind up, that you want to run for it and us make a

decision that we would support the-salaried position here's a man



J: that has the money that he can run for the office Aspend the time,

Ul spend the money necessary.

-: Who were these people that you were talking abo .

Who did you consult with?

J: Paula Hawkins, q (Bioy]ltonF~t. Lauderdale, .*e-knol all the people

still is and still as, he never gets out. He stays there and we had
up in Holiday L /<--
some people from.the Panhandle. I think.Ba might have been there
that particular
-at., meeting. There were a number of the state committee- p4-e-

board people
executive that were at the meeting.

I-: And they encouragedyou to go see Tommy Thomas.

J: Well, let me say that the men-there, a couple of them, a couple of

them that were opposed to a salary change. They just didn't pay a

salary chO eck. -- all specifically, but

that was the way

Y1, Paul Hawkins.
to a
J:,IW was the one who was totally opposed t The salary chairman was also

the one who opposed legislative salary the other side against Gruney
WJe rV-4 '
and all politicians necessary to ban I guess now tat she had



J: been elected,she didnr-t feelthat - -

-: Was ere any problem.or controversy y raised D~tA i.A .-,.. OuU

This is the question that we want to ask. An7 controversy raised over the

idea of having a party chairman for this area that goes from one

6wt c% 14 (t&L 0 0, V 1 0
Panhandle man e faotin and.al1.

J: Maufa"eturirg, I don't think entered into itt4LC O

I think that it was strictly from the standpoint that I had nominated

Paula. We had/i differences and the operation of the committee from

that point went on for a while that I wanted to get rid of ltfn

Chritendon, 'er area and all these people involved were from that

area. And Orange County pretty well had a lock on it so if there had

been any regional type thing, --- had been trying to keep it
in that area, but she said that she opposed to paying a chairman

and she and some of the others were leaning one way orA another

They just didn't know what. I just said that I was tired of Chritendon

I want not I want to run against him and want -gize him every

yet. but I'm
consideration to running and I made my mind up totally

thinking about it. If I do, I'll ask him the committee to V//

And so they said would you fly over there or w would you go see



J: Tommy Thomas and Dao, I'll fly you over you and

we' 11 in
we'll in
your wife over and.call and get an appointment set up.

Gray b from
So and Dr. Lane, Bob Ctnd I,Sen.Lane Broward County. We

flew over in Gray's plane to Panama City. We met Tommy and Virgi nia<

We went out to the-pad place on the beach and we were just absolutely

delightedot.P We enjoyed their company. I was impressed with

what he knew about the party, the background, and work he'd done

in Alabama as well as in Flc rida for the Republican party. /And his

ability to meet with people so quickly and to get them to like him.

That it was just personal friendliness that he has about him.

To meet him on a one to one basis. I thought that he could talk

with so-many people and being from North Florida he could get a good

edge with North Florida people and that he could talk and the South

Florida people could fall in love with him just as quickly in my

district and in others districts and he did have a big Chevrolet

that he turned over to Center felds
dealership and They more or less got themselves

than for me
successful in business It was much better for him.and so I

agreed that weekend to support him and work with him

and -o become sort of his(a endntin the campaign.


J: to go ahead and to tell the story and to him around and to

introduce him to various people and so after we completed this,. d. /iC

I had no idea of working with him at that particular time

of any appointments on the committee because I had been dected to

the sate committee, but I was also running for the State Senate. S0

I figured that I would be too busy in the State Senate to take on

a higher responsiUfi party beyond just being a committee man.

And as it turned out, then I was defeated. He was elected. And I

as our
was elected t the state committee and he was elected chairman.

Cbut wl B unIl January then the Nove mber
elections ame and I was-h the Senate. Then, I went back

to the convention. He was still not the chairman. He had only been

elected as state committee man in September so we were still

Sthe way up to
going around meeting people and getting votes allA January

94 I believe. And then, I worked th; E convention. made some

nominating and stuff like that
-,.speeches so we won again our Wtate from then on

always when -

She got up and went back to Gainesville so she- laen-a RaFb;le mV

preesdtSU in terms of the position that she was looking for.


C I o an
J: aasoM e asked me if I would accept.appointment in legislative counsel

I told him yes. He said that he would like to see it become more than

that since he wanted to meet with us and discuss moving the Republican

Party from Orlando to Tallahassee and this is what I had suggested

to him because this is one of my pet points of view. That I had

run for chairman it would have been to Jlocate a permanent headquarters

in Tallahassee and not let it move to West Palm Beach to Sarasota to

Tampa to Orlando .

>- local area influence to localarea.

J: d11, and, also, people get the idea that some flakey organization. ..

open up a new office someplace every four years. nd that we showed the

whoe they U-C.
other party something because now they followed our suit-opened

up offices in Tallahassee, jut I told him that when I was running the

campaign, I was opening offices in Tallahassee being where the action is,

being where the capital press is,,and the press release in turn puts out

distributed 4l
to be better 4~emm&^tto the state and that this is the plat to work out

XF ;i's
of because we are that related t government. Me-are going to be a party

it ought to be We--- he -wo d-up-that campaign We stieseed this with

that people so it means after his election, we sat down and discuasd the



J: mechanic of looking for the building and searching in Tallahassee

Fortunately, we found the Chamber of Commerce ef Building with a financial

deal where I think Tbmmy and one other 4/ yiS .

J: No1Miami Uh, American Marine Under writers Joe Bor and I think that

puthi V
the two of them. We discussed everybody on the executive board putheir

signature on the note, but the bank didn't like that idea And they didn't

like the idea of having a lot of fifteen or sixteen people to run around

and chase down people in case the mortgage went though.

P So Tommy finally, said to them.suppose two people Leither put up cash

and securities and sign on to the thing and the been making

payment of it since then. Another thing I talked about was that there

was no communication while I was in the legislature. We were forever

wondering why O9it6nd n would say for example that he was against the

salary when we hadn't heard nd all of a sudden the governor

vetoes it.He makes it a-ta gdpSbody -- enrSlOO kU /
He's right.
All the time --.- the debate is going on discussion going

on and he hadn't seen our chairman. So he became a man with the



disliked. A .
J; with the legislative j sP at accepted

his county Don Reed, the ones from Sarasota from Broward County,

and the rest of them, Pete- GrSffi became a very /] (P

He-waesa--canrdiarbe-and all of a sudden blasting us and we were his

party's elected officialsand he had never advised us of his party's

position and the salaries whatsoever. And so this was a problem that

I thought in communicationW.%* t I had suggested the elected chairman

tell him too that you are going to establish communication between

Republican elected officials in Tallahassee and the party chairman.-

A officeoSays "I got defeated thenSyswould you come up here and

act as a liaison and accept this legislative counsel? 6aasA A

and I did. So we moved to Tallahassee at that session and I handled

the job fromAparty headquarters. It was just a few blocks fom the

our officials /AtCC 1~t lC .
capital. Carrying messages to.Republicanand a-cucuses in case there

;ayz ad I'd tell them what the executive

board had said at its meeting that they had discussed t~ie particular

subject. That there had -ben~any results We didn't try to tell

you woltd vote wou-d
anybody that this wqy or you^vote that way, but if an issue was

there. M"Tney'-try tooseVf the party and discussed it.


J: the majority of the board members felt that this was good legislation tA

,C amd"T "V's bad legislation, it ought to be changed. A "e-~tere-any

I ta Lc e--" the kind of thing that
\iAc specific instances that stand out in your own mind 'a ,"(at7

are talking about. Le value of what you are doing?

J: I think thatin election -- probably(he biggest because the legislative

leadership sometimes appoints some of the most inexperienced people to the

elections/and they get in here and start messing around with election laws.

They get. They won't.run for office. They have never had the experience

of trying to raise money 9 hey were-tiying to operate a mechanical party

structure and I think the adoption of the We worked on the bill having

use to
to do with the putting all the taking from thk statutes basicallyspell out

exactly the operation of the Republican and Democrat State Executive

Committee' and ae g committees from the statutes. And I worked

with in
with the Republican members relation committee Republicans .both

houses to help me develop a law that would give the tax voters a part

to some aecotarnTsg committees That the party adopts the rules and

procedures rdherthan have them outlined in the statutes so tat both

parties wouldn't have to be identical because maybe the Democrats PV

would in-ta l tsg rules and procedures tIat would



J: build its base one -rwaytWe might dkcidethat we want to do it an

entirely different way, but we both ~ ke into being wins you might

say. Following the same procedures basically. There were other

pieces of legislation tha besides elections heWl1, the

corporate income tax was one issue that I worked ith them

and because the Republican Party took a position totally opposed to

corporation and indeamd we were I went to the caucus and explained

the party's position, tbeina g why they were opposed to it and what

they thought and they thought that they ought to react to it.

As it turned out, C -.- l.: '-, .*

and-the Republicans- Aoff and we had some deals

made and wetholght that the tax did get through. I still think that
to this day.if they had done what we had suggested and stayed

inihere tight, and followed what their caucus but they broke away

from the caucuses and we had people break off from the caucus position

and this I think is when they lost some of their real respect that the

Democ \ratic Party had for them. IswhenAthes- eat party realized
that onimporas they could cr*agthem but before that it wasn't a partisan

issue. Sure we would go wlth-theDemocrate-T-ralgo-id cenought to pass it.

but if something thought was Partisan the party had a position

we .wnL. -UZ -r We stayed in there tight and at this particular

point in time these men, they wece-good-for-progress. They had full
and everything, would
amount of debate. The position.be taken and the next day you find five of



J: them going the other way. Instead of staying with the Party position that
was adopted by thea .n and of curse, you have five of them do it one

day, the next day two more are going to ay, "Well, why should I stick ith

thfop .2 They got away with it. Of course, here's no way to db anything
there was, but
to them. Nobody suggested 'ust from solidarity and from the standpoh t

that you are not going to be respected as a force in this body unless there comes

a time when44 4 C t itand up and be counted as a Republican and this
LVEW tr taxation;
is te philosophy. This is the philosophy of octhat the corporate

tax, and personal income tax stand up and say this is where we are going to

stand stand here andget run over Whayou need to do they didn't do that.

I can't recall an issure,- Abt I d get. We'd have board meetings in Tallahassee
was -ing
about once a month and sometimes less if something com up. We had board

meetings before hand, and discussed some of the legislation eeme p- at various

sch sl and they discussed it and then I would get get from them their opinion,

and I wuld and other things that I did was go b cabinet meeting and listen to
what he cabinet was doing, to see I could find any information that would be

useful to our chairman. As the loal opositienm out of office you might say,

the minority should be able to ange' things itn light the general public.
dJ-- L e) W ^ ,'C
Even though we did find some things we found some things the cabinet way

and as far as I am concerned as the governor goes we tried it. We iss ed-

Inp--- be, but they didn t get too much play throughout the state. WhJfapt
1(Zi^: ^HAL'LO3 C^I)Q LbZ^ 'L4.3C.-'. '' I'' t.'*
She -pa"epe e. nteh honeymooning with the governor and

he could do no wrong. And maybe our timing on submitting the pieaede t=sT -.

Otherwise it didn't work as well as we.expected.

- Any specific issue there you care to give Me-an example y


J: As an example, I'd like to bring out the issue of the legislative wings

in Tallahassee. I went to the cabinet meeting and they would discussing

who #a build it and the money was there representing Knott Construction

Company out of Baltimore, Maryland. And so I just started king notes

(w io what they were saying It became apparent to everybody in the room

that Knott Construction Company had come in as a-n -guoVr, but that

they had found in the statutestechnicality because they had not either

done something regarding the voting-procedures exactly the way that it

was supposed to be done. And so it was recommended by the governor to

the chairman that the vete-be-thrown out because of i-s technical

violations And the ifct that th ing phd for oz agr- n

thal-tatt Company in Pensacola be accepted, and so I figured that

Pensacola, the governor Pensacola worth looking intc t he

Secretary of State's office and found out who the green-hbts were a4f

what's his financial statements, his wife, his children n, vartuums tb

people in his office by making calls to Pensacola, takig pato-e -in-

realesta;.e to find out who worked for him, aid he was involved directly

with the construction and came up with.$8,000 $9,000 contributions



.just this particular individual and his acquaintances to

-te-the governor's campaign. Find out that Bastew
W) w to the Board of Regulations.
Brockto was appointed Business And that
^- conw a A i 'A .
he was thb elected contractor.,e4 -it was worth the contractor,

was worth 2.1 millions of dollars an this ten million plus That's

before extras, that's just what the contractlr was wort in the

legislative wing. And we thought that there was a tie in. We thought

that it was something that if it had happened in our administration

would have been t.exposed and the governor would have been crucified for
i( of
it. And I thought that I wAud1ad a gold mine political espionage
into the
yo} might say .finances of the campaign. Tha the press was just tZ& 44
{-A7' I!
Saki as but they didn't like it. They didn't enjoy it) a24 arut

And it was fun doing it but still I kinda wasted effort.



491 C

S- let's backtrack. As a legislator, in 1967 to 1970, what do you A6

significant accomplishment Jour legislative sessions made) in yot

party Republican legistive What significant contributions do you

J:-a!t the Republican Pary itself?

S- As legislatoof the Republican Party..AhtLt C~'- -C

J: Of course, I felt thq greatest contribution waTSe .change that






J; had taken place that ise-taing p"-a in the legislative branch itself.

don't -t-
Ithink that it could never have taken place if the Republicanshad not

gotten enough people up there to assist in doing it. I don't think

that one party would have accepted the responsibility by itself. O/ L S-

zAot the responsibility so much as the threat that it might have brought

to their political careers, but if there's one thing 'th date that

not just the State of Florida, but every state it's a weakness of

the legislative branch, to be able to handle the responsibility of

government, concerning policies for the state. And we were still operating

on the every two year crisis basis of do nothing, know noth ing legislators

who weren't trained, wevenIt prepared and never understood leg4eatuare that

they were passing beyond the fact that they were told that it was good by

somebody y ty- were voting for And the outstanding contribution, I think,

j4- or5 /ie, 4
:a Republican legislat- 71 participating and willing to step out into a

take a strong, positive position and seeing that4legislative branch

wae-renAequal branch with the judicial ,executive in the State of Florida.

I think that the adoption the second most significant thing was that, ther~ 60

-~thecould not have had the Codstitution 'election of 196f d I think that

the constitutional revision was necessary t6 outlivedthe 1885 Constitution.

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