Title: Narva Lee McGhee
CITATION THUMBNAILS PAGE IMAGE ZOOMABLE
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007541/00001
 Material Information
Title: Narva Lee McGhee
Physical Description: Archival
Language: English
Creator: McGhee, Narva Lee ( Interviewee )
Publisher: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program
Place of Publication: Gainesville, Fla.
Publication Date: August 2, 1978
 Notes
General Note: Oral History Interview CRK 71 - 8/2/1978 - Restricted (Box 27)
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007541
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.

Full Text






CRK 71A

Side 1

August 2, 1978


Page 1

kk


I: How long have you been living in Nokomis?

M: What?

I: How long have you been living in Nokomis?

M: Thirty-five years.

I: Quite some time. That's a good long time.

M; Yep. We moved from up north of,, towards northwest of a place called Bell Creek.

I: Uh...uh.

M: There's a bunch of Indians who live there, you know. Ever since that community dang

disappeared, you know moved off, and there's none living in what you call Bell Creek

now. Used to some live on each sidecof the creek, you know all along the side. There's

none...all Xfsae places growed up, rotted down old houses.

I: Y'all moved closer down to the highway?

M: Yep.

W: *f= -rt.a That $30, did you ever send it *i?

M: Huh?

W: Did you ever send t-he-$4.0-n? Thirty dollars? No, you didn't Wh tellonC,(& ,oScC'.

M: Xe didn't ever pay.'..the balance of it. You know for that month, we didn't ever pay

the balance for that month, that month.

W: -_-f6 ei. ?-

M: No, he didn't ever pay, for the balance that month.

W: No, he didn't ever pay for the balance that month, did he? Andi=yQu ~id-__ -

What was that he brought you, that day?

M: What?









CRK 71A


W: He brought you thirty dollars.

M: I spent all that he gave me.

W: You ain't got no money, you sinner. What did you spend it by?

M: I spent all that he sent... he just never paid for the balance that month.

W: He didL

M: He just paid for part of the month.

W: No, he wrote it up...

M: Forty dollars...

W: Thirty dollars...

M: He owes thirty more, and he gave me a see?

W: He come up here and brought it to you.

M: No, he didn't.

W: Share did. AHe said he pay it all, and don't you know I said I reckon that the reason he

didn't pay it was becausefq yA .

M: Yeah, that's what I said, he didn't pay for the balance for the month.

W: You ain't sent him the thirty dollars!

M: I di4-of-the first forty dollars. Then there was thirty more dollars, you see, but

he didn't ever pay that, cause he knew he was going to move, you see.

W: You sure he paid you the thirty dollars. I know he paid it...

I: Why did you move out to Nokomis?

M: Pardon?

T: Why did we move out to...

W: He brought you that money and you know it!

M: The reason, my daddy lived in Bell Creek at the time. It was during the depression,

the fellow he was _._ for, his son-in-law, they didn't have no place to go,

you know, so that put my dad out. He had to come...he found a place around here to


Page 2









CRK 71A


plant. He rented a place a hundred and twenty acres, and bought him a pair of mules,

to start him off. He didn't have nothing' to start...bought him a pair of mules.

I: And y'all started farming around here?

M: Later on, I bought, after my dad died, mother died, well I bought all of the rest of

the heirs out. Later on, I sold it all, except for twenty acres. Well, I've been

selling some off of this twenty...but I don't have but thirteen acres left. What,

about a hundred and twenty sold.

I: Are you still farming around here?

M: I've got a little~ already standing rent) i C (o

I: You haven't farmed around here for a long time?

M: I used to farm, when I was public working, but when I retired, Ilust decided I didn't

want to...I just sold it off.

I: Where did you retire from?

M: 9 was .-, Miller, I was a crane operator--operated cranes for about fifteen

years for Miller. And I worked some other jobs for about two or three years. Run a
\ *(.(. <'
switch engine a little, operated a crane about fourteen years.

I: How did you get started going up to Wisconsin?

M: Well, I just...well when I went to carry labor, I went with some old fellows up there,

and these fellows quit carrying the labor, and a fellow wanted me to carry labor for

him, and I started to carry labor for six--this is the seventh year if I go this year.

I bought, I picked up a truck in '72 brand new, and I went that year and have been

going every year since. Which is six years--this is the seventh yearI \? 1 --

I: Yeah, you been really going, you're getting ready to go tomorrow.

M: Yeah, I'm getting ready.

I: Is it very hard to find people to work around here?

M: Yeah, it is pretty hard. Some of them promised to go that done backed out or another


Page 3













job, you know. There's a girl I was figuring on going, her sister come toldAjust a

while ago that she couldn't go. Short again.

I: So you're one short now, huh? Did it used to be this hard to get people?

M: Well, no, it *werrtea this hard. Youqaeeel.hat-& seeder- program has a lot of

people employed, young people employed. That's one reason in particular.

I: Do you think that .ede~ program is pretty good for the boys up there, or...

M: Yeah, I think it is, I think it is.

I: Tak\ away some of your labor, though.

M: Yeah.

I: How many people do you normally carry up there?

M; Well, he wants me to carry fifteen. I ain't going to have many, Some of them G-(

backed out.

I: You still got a lot of relatives over there in Poarch? v'. flrR r"9 '.1

M: Me?

I: Yeah.

M: Yeah. In fact all of them are related to me. My grandfather, he used, that was his

old home just east of that, what,,g- call Hog Fork. I don't know whether you heard of
'I
Hog Fork or not.

I: That's where I live.

M: Huh?

I: I live in Hog Fork.. That's where I'm staying this summer.

M: Who you staying there with?

I: I'm staying by myself. Do you know Willie Eby's house?

M: Yeah.

I: I'm renting that house.

M; Yeah... There's a cemetery there, you know.


Page 4


CRK 71A









CRK 71A


I: Yeah.

M: You know where the cemetery is?

I: Yeah.

M: That's where my grandfather is buried.

I: Oh...

M: JOe McGhee. His name is Joe.

I: Joe?
A \-'^. 'A i Lcr>.
M: His father, I think hiS name-was Richard. And his grandfather's name Rend. My daddy's

name, he was named after his great-grandfather.

I: Ah..ha.

M: He was named after his great-grandfather, Rand McGhee. That's who the treaty was...

signed a treaty I think, with Jackson-

I: I see.

M: A lot of treaties were signed, were signed under duress, you know. Treaties signed

under duress, it's not lawful.

I: No, it doesn't seem like it would be.

M: Forced to sign it, you know.

I: Did your grandfather or daddy ever tell you any of the old stories about what happened

around Poarch, or right before they moved?

M: No, I never heard him- talk much that much about it. There's an Indian...uh, he learned

us how to fi I don't whether you prc./ s saw it, draw a star--a star that's

got five points, and take nine objects and work them in that star,:and help a cross-
(a.Kp kT ( -l1 I4
-line every time...put nine of them tog:~th- iv .-. o ..

I: No, I don't think I've seen that.

M: That's an old __that's handed down from generation to generation.

I: Uh...ha.


Page 5









CRK 71A


My daddy learned me how.

To make a five-pointed star.

Yep. You take five objects,you can take rocks, grains of corn, or beans, or anything,you k"oi
QC/O Zt) ( gL p4-U~r>-* 'pA -_____-_.
S....-....r .x -u.'. 1, go. I got one here.

Okay...

If I can find it...let me get by. The list what these nine in there,

and jump across like...see~you can't go from this corner--that's two lines. You can jump

over one, but you can't start where you've got one down. And you watch me now.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm going to go by the rules. You can't start here and go, that's two lines.

But you can ste-'here and go there.

Ahl...uh.

Start here and (4up, start here and fUSp...now let's see you do it.
t-, .,- 0CS 0-.-_
You play this a lot wah-the kid ?

Huh?

You used to play this a lot -waisw4- kidk ?

This has been handed down, I don't know how long--for generations. My daddy learnt me,

and his daddy learnt him, I think.



What?

Left in the first place, a... Jackie?

Yeah, I think I took Jackie...



Where did you get this?

From that f.L

Yeah, that's what Jackie printed.


Page 6









CRK 71A


L: Huh?

M: That's what Jackie printed. She was going to read this letter she printed...was going

to read to the congress o*-the... She didn't, she give a copy of it to me.

I: Ah...ha. Right there and through here...I think I'm in trouble now. Right here and

through there...

M: You got the other one done?

I: Yeah. I got myself in trouble.
y,,< c -o-----
M: You can't starto-T, you can't Qo ro- CJc two lines, and jumping over two.

I: Yeah, I think Lmic ei+ g~t my corners geewfedmp. It's harder than what it looks like.

M: That's a _, brother.

I: Um, hum.

M: .J. ncrT been handed down for generations, I don't know how long.

I: Yeah?

M: You watch me tnow, I'm going to go by the rules.

I: Okay.

M: One. Two. Three. Four. Five. Six. Seven. Eight. Nine.

I: And-ten. Let me see if I can do it one more time. One. Two. Three.

M: You started where you can't start. You followed that line. Yoh have to come to this

point.

I: I have to go to that point.

M: You can't stop come that end of the line, you have to cross the line.

I: Four. Five. Six. Seven.

M: -Yoes- hzi* YotrimveT' dt U0 rbuL -- I.t. b (jW

I: It's better, much more Xik&- this time.
t, '-', "* ... *,- ;:**' n ilcc ^ .
M: All right. One. Two. Three. Four. Five. Six. Seven. Eight. Nine.

I: I keep...I see how you're doing it.


Page 7









CRK 71A


M: Huh?

I: I keep seeing how you do it, but I can't do it myself. Even if I try. One. Two. Three.

Four. Five. Six. Seven. Eight. Nine.

M: Yep. Let's see you_--it again.
-7
I: You want me to do it again. Well, where did I start off at? One. Two. Three. Four.

Five. Six. Seven. Eight. Nine.

M: You're a taught Creek. I've seen them play on that thing half a night at a time

and didn't ever work it.

I: k half a night? It does take some figuring out.

M: You did it right.

I: What's your trick, I was just watching you, and seeing how you did it.

M: You can do it.

I: Yeah. The trick, I guess is to fill up the one you just (e bo .

M: That's the only way you can work it.

I: Uh...ha.

M: I've seen them work and work on that thing for half a day. Used to, I would stop by

the crane and lots of time it would be rainingta half a day. We had af old house we

Sget in, you know, and all crew would get in when it rained...played games. I've seen

some of them fellows there work on that thing for hours and hours, and could never work

it. There's a letter that Jackie wrote,,she lives across-the-course, she's going to

read that to me. To the congress she done mailed one and give me one--a copy.

I: Jackie your daughter?

M: Jackie \- O,-crl'..

I: That your daughter, or... CQ

M: No, no, she's just one of the members. She printed this about our history. She was

going to read this to congress'when we had ptr hearing, you know. She didn't, she didn't.
J" ,A4. 4t4r


Page 8









CRK 71A Page 9


.Sermee-Tdin'-t- reaed. the case--it didn't come up for a hearing that day. She give me

one of the copies. I hunted and hunted for-Lt.- y daughter, she just found it. I don't
I &.Cc."r-q '+U ^',- i'* ^ '5-' 'g V^-A't".C
know where she... I've looked and looked for it, J-knew-;t.-wie-tsmewe~-p4ere but I

never could find it.

I: est David McNack, 4mnt- eS-MeNe So e e c \..' \' k .... ....... ... ,

M: Pardon?

I: W* David McNackAthe son of Sam McNack.'

M: Yeah, that's his, a.r- c... r ic ..... --... My grandmother, she was an McNack
Co\b on my mother's side. She was a ggar, her daddy was a ,Gaere, while his wife was a

McNack. McNacks and McGhees, see)that where they were descended from me. My relatives

were descended from McNacks and McGhees, and Qewwn s. You know, you can show them

that in Oklahoma when you go back.

I: Yeah, I'll do that. That's the first time I can. My grandmother used to try to show

me, you know, to make pictures out of string, and I used to could do that, but I haven't

been able to in a long time.

M: Did you read this?

I: I read part of it.

M: "I am seven-eights white, and I am sorry. You have crushed our nation. You1 ..I can't

hardly see this, I'can't hardly see. "You make loud noises and shout that all men
0h
are created equal, but you deny us the right to live. You the white...rascals"...that

be your name, the rascals?

I: Race?

M: Yeah, race, yeah..."you have spilled our blood as a drunkard man spills his wine. And

you have crushed us, but you cannot conquer us, for our blood will be in the blood of

your grandchildren in a hundred years from this date. The Mclntoshes, the Weatherfords,

and the Baileys,-and the"...w t*- "d ic t-hi

I: The Wards?









Page 10


M: Ward, yeah, Wards. "...the McQueens and the..." I can't see what that is.

I: McDonalds, Simpsons,_______

M: "In 1832," that.1832, ain't it?

I: Uh...huh.

M: "the Creek Nation see...",,what this to be?

I: Seeded.

M: Yeah, "eeded-to the United States all their land east of the Mississippi. Except for

the few..." What is that?

I: Sections.

M: Yeah, "sections they were allowed to keep up po five years unless they sold it...sold it.

Most of the Creeks of Alabama..." Was, what's that?

I: West, west.

M: See, yaM.aL-i d sal. My 4eeadgJ about shot.

I: Oh, you've gotta use glasses nowadays?

M: I had a pair one time, but I quit. wearing them.

I: "...some of them were allowed to stay and become citizens of the United States, but

they were to retain their tribal rights. I am a descendant of one of these."

Your son going up to Wisconsin with you, the one you're going to pick up?

M: Yeah. He's got a job in Zon, he just got a few days to come to help me drive up.

He's a security guard up there in a nuclear power plant.

I: That's the same one you guarded in?

M: That's the same one I guarded in. 'Course there's two different companies that got it

now. Pinkerton, they had it when I was guarding--it was under construction, but they

got it finished when another guard company taked it over, you see.

I: How long ago was this that you were a guard there?

M: '70, I believe it was 1970, I believe. Ah...I-thi-k...wl.a~sAthat company that got it now...


CRK 71A









Page 11


What's the name of that company that guards these banks, these payrolls,...

END OF SIDE 1

M: ." .. There's one fellow going the same timethe didn't pass it.

My boy, he passed it.

I: How long did you live up in 2on?

M: Me? I didn't live, I justjworked.

I: -Yp justiworked :uPheie?-

M:" Yeah, my family, they was still here.

I: You work up there very long, or.U.-'-

M: No, about twelve months. I worked some with another guard company at Lake County

College, that's west of Ion. My job was to park cars, and after I got them/parked,

I didn't have nothing else to do. 'Course ;i some of them parkVJ illegally, I-htl. co, I

-t& give them a ticket. After I get everybody parked, see, I didn't have nothing .lse

to do. Walk around the yard once in a while to see if nobody tampered with nothing. ,

Yard was a mile and a half. I didn't stay with them very long, cause it was about

fifteen miles out of Son, you know, and I didn't have my car. I Whd to use the other

boy's car.

I: Am I keeping you from going soraeerae?

M: No, I ain't going to go til...I won't leave till ten or eleven o'clock. You can lay

down, lay down and go to sleep. I just hope that plane's on time. In the wintertime,

you can look for it to be late. In the wintertime, you know, the runways get iced over

and they can't off and can't land anywhere. Gets snowbound, you know. I went down

in to r- .- in the wintertime, you know, be delayed, the plane be delayed.

I: There in Pensacola, or taking off from Wisconsin?

M: Huh?

I: Taking off from Wisconsin?


CRK 71A












M: No, why, he takes off from O'Hara. That's where he be's in ~on, O'Hard. That's one

of the biggest airports in the country, O'Har?.

I: It gets cold up there.

M: Yeah. I was on guard duty one night at 32 A-geee-below zero. The wind chill factor

is 52 below. You know, you get a wind chill factor too. Fifty-two below!

I: That's too cold.

M: You'd better believe it. ...so many chills... I dread my trip tomorrow.

I: Not looking forward to it?

M: I went and bought another car today. I had a car, one car...had a '76 Chevelot and

'72 pick-up, but I couldn't carry them all in one car and pick-up,/cause the pick-up

be loaded with luggage and groceries. See, I carry a lot of groceries from here, see)

such as flour and meal and lard. Why, you can't buy self-rising flour up there, that's

for sure.

I: You can't buy it?

M1 Not in Wisconsin. If you find any, it's 'about a five-pound bag, you might buy a five-

pound bag, But you can't afford to buy a five-pound of flour and feed a big camp crew.

You see, the smaller proportion you buy, the more it costs you. Little old five-pound

bag, it'll cost you about a dollar, over a dollar, you see. Where you can get a 25

for about three dollars and a half. That would take about five dollars, paying a dollar

for five pounds. That take over five dollars for 25 pounds. You couldn't afford to

feed them. Same way with lard. I've got about, I reckon a hundred pounds of lard, in

that deep freeze in there now.

I: Are you ready to go now?

M: I'm going to carry my son some, he going...in jon, he can't, he dan get it up there, but

it costs so much, see. Same way with others...I got, I don't how much, I reckon, I

suspect I got about fifty pounds of rice loaded up. Maybe more in there.


Page 12


CRK 71A









Page 13


What will you have to buy when you get there?

Well, meats, eggs. I'm going to pick-up some meat in Zon. Wilma's going to get this
C'\\ ^)
from this daughter, and she's going get me a bunch of meat, you know, salt meat. Abwt

bacon and eggs, 1. pork chops, fresh meat, I could buy that up there, see,

in Paloma, or either Adam, one. Those towns, you know, we go in there shopping. There's
a-c
a big dairy farm, I mean, a poultry farm right close to, right close to where we going

to be staying; I can buy eggs, all the eggs I want. I reckon they still sell them. They

did last year. Last year we was about two miles from this place, but now we ain't going

to be, ain't going to be more than a half of mile from that place I moved. Changing camps,

moved closer to the shed. Be closer to this poultry farm.

Do they have buildings up there for you to stay in, or...

Or what?

They have houses for you to stay in?

Oh, yeah, sure. Sure, yeah.

Everything all fixed up, then?

Yeah, yeah. Running water, indoor restrooms, hot showers. See, the government got

involved...you used couldn't...t H-=, i i 't...they used to use migrant labor

anyways, but the government, they got behind s. They had to cut that stuff out, they

had to fix better facilities for workers, the migrants, migrant workers.

I bet that makes it a lot easier going up there, you know.

Yep, you're right.
1p1ul boy/
These-people must have always treated you right, for you to keep going back.

Pardon?

This boy up there must have always treated you right, for you to keep going back.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Good fellow to work for. Kinda wish I hadn't obligated myself to

go now, 'cause he's expecting them. \act he done sent me money to travel with, travel

money, you know. Done sent me money to go on. Good man. He come down here every year


CRK 71A









CRK 71A Page 14

to see me. He come down here last...well, it was as soon as he got through with his

crop here. I believe it was in March or Aprilithis year he come down. He's a big golf

fan, you know, golf player. Goes on the course and play, a lot,,plays golf, you know.

When he's down, he always comes see me, you know.

I: Yeah.

M: Sometimes...um...year before last, I think it was, his son, he...and his wife, they came

to see us. And I take them all around Poarch, come back there that morning we had dinner

at the city cafe.

SWhen he come, I...we take my car out there. He had a good car, but his a small car, you

know. I told him, well we'll just drive mine, mine's larger than your car. He put the

gas and everything in it. do^ orce anmh et His son. didn't come this year; the

old man come. He's a millionaire, -mea emee*Anbt. His wife's president of a bank in
pvA-\-v .


I: Aaaadoeye?

M: AnniemevHti ; Wisconsin.

I: Annieai-1e.

M: He's got twelve hundred acres of land down there in faloma) Plants about 450 or 500

acres of potatoes.

I: That's a lot of potatoes.

M: Sometimes he plants snap beans; he said he's going to plant a bunch of soybeans this year.

Corn and celery, you know. He's got a dry shell seed corn in there, aS a lot of corn,

snap beans.

I: Runs a big business up there.

M: Yeah. He's really rigged up for fe-potatoes. Harvesting, gotta harvest it, you know.

They got what you call a windrower, you don't see them...I ain't never seen one in this

country. This windrower, he goes along and he digs two rows. Well, he plied them out









CRK 71A Page 15

here in a heap row, see. And this harvester, he come along and he digs through it,

he picks Jeta4L-wo You make one trip to the field, and a lot of times they done

loaded the wagon before they get all the way out there. Long road, potatoes good.

Get that oy a--the tractor cae if yeu i 't, cut it loose.
Get that___________ a. tractorhe A" "'"

If you ain't got that extra tractor to cut it loose, i-f yiu'm guiaat.t.-'eS... a eo

~m =Ca. am, if you've got an extra tractor, just let it stay hooked to the tractor.

Maybe there be a tractor hooked to this, and if they're running, you get this ~-\Ce

to pull that one out and just load it. You break that conveyor in half, so it's half

round, you got another wagon up here standing loaded. While we chain this one in, you

switch this other one on, see? That way, 4to-X aC the conveyor continue to run.

I: Just keeps on running?

M: Well, when you pull that empty out, and put this other load in, you couple up to ship

this other off up there, see. And load this one on the end. And when it gets empty, you
Or-'-e Or-
put another load, and switch that other ab you see. While your chain, on this end,

that continues.,to run.

I: It keeps on going?

M: It keep on and don't stop. a can run a half a and not even switch over.

I: That's amazing. I've never seen harvesting potatoes that way.

M: They used to, up there several years ago, they used to...these peas, they had to work

about three men to catch them, and bag them, and weigh them, and stack them back in the

shed, you know. But now them beans comes on a conveyor, and they got a wagon, the wagon

back, they just pile them up right on that wagon. But they get that wagon loaded to

put it on the e4bi log When they get about five, about four or five of them wagon

loaded, they get a big open top van to come in there, you see. Open top van come in there,

they load fight out lof the wagon right in that van, you see. That way they ain't never

touched by your hands. Man don't even touch it with your hands.









Page 16


I: How do they grade the potatoes? They weigh them, or..

M: Yeah, yeah. See they go over a grader, you see. They got chains, you never seen a

potato grader?

I: No, I've never seen a potato grader.

M: Well, they've...see, the got seefthem smaller, they fall through.

6o jn another conveyor, you see. Big ones, they slide on over andigo on a place where the

number ones go. And they've got an automatic bagger there, thing with balls.

A: How you're doing?

I: Pretty good, yourself?

M: That's my grandson there, Alan, you probably saw him.

A: Yeah, I saw you yesterday.

I: Ah...ha.

M: And they, see when they're running hundred, eee they've got an automatic weighing machine

that weigh hundreds. Got one, you know, bagging machine that weighs tens and twenties,

paper bags, you see. These hundreds, they gets on a revolving thing. When that thing

gets a hundred pounds, they automatically turn loose.

I: Turn loose, huh?

M: And then you've got an electric sewer, sew it, you see. While you stack them on pallets

and you've got a forklift carry them right on in the van. It was just the last three

years they got this forklift to stack them on pallets.

I: Yeah.

M: Them five and ten pound bags, you stack them on pallets. You just p1ek that forklift on

them, and pick it up and put it right on in the van.

I: Does it take long?

M: No.

L: That machine is kinda of like an egg grader. I used to work on an egg farm and watch

them grade eggs. They'd grade those on weight, though, they'd tip the scale.


CRK 71A









CRK 71A Page 17


M: 1a. you have some more i t

I: I think T- got iL.r- nl a sC nd. ...Florida State University.

A: They was pretty good in football this year, weren't they?

I: They was real good.
,__-_^ I _. r T -,
A: I saw them. They was in the Tangerine Bowl. They ~amt rs-w imaa tra.

I: Yeah. Ride them on by.

A: They had...what's that, defensive tackle, what's his name? He was good.

I: Robinson? That's the noseguard.

A: Yeah, noseguard. He was good, wasn't he?

M: My grandfather was a general in the war. *AB didn't say what war.

A: Mama, I appreciate you cleaning that.

M: I don't know what he talking about. I ain't talking about it, though.

)M grandfather was a general in the war 'OC

I: I wonder which war that was, though.

M: Yeah, I like forgot which war it was.



M: You don't knowwhere I copied those papers, there, do you?

M: How far is that from QO-o'cL ?
,c-,- ..-,,-,^ ro H p\-
I: That's about, if I remember, about forty-file or fifty miles north Q Omokee.

M: The fellow said north of Omokee?

I: Yeah, about northeast of Omokee.

M: Calvin, I know you've heard of him, Calvin...Calvin, he's dead now.

W: Are you a Creek Indian here?

I: Yep.

W: I thought, I thought you said you was from the university.

A: What's mostly up there?

I: They got all kinds up there in Oklahoma.









Page 18


A: They got reservations now.

I: Not in Oklahoma.

M: The reason they moved the Indians to Oklahoma, it was a barren land. They didn't think

it was nothing. See, it wasn't iteA they discovered oil there. I understand a lot

of them out there working.

I: Some of them have got a little bit of money. None of them got very much.

M: Well, any of y'all get any payment from the government, anym.nonthly check taweemes



r: go.

M: Well, up in the Dakotas they do.

I: you -enMt- 6~vL m t1-.znH'I
f\^U^ q o0 k /ru A-kNN;-O 0-" 0o^^^ .--
M: Yeah. I bet a lot of people could get checks from the government and

they don't know. Tell them to try to get that started. Try to get that work done.
IDou ,e.-. \" Q -
W: ou paid o4U 4p offf hundred and thelve dollars?

I: My dad did.

W: You didn't get it?

I: No, no I didn't sign up for it.

W: You'd better ha <5Qi p i .

I: I should have had.

W: You should have had.

A: An hundred and twe Ive dollars can come in handy.

M: Was that on the same, was that on the same claim as document 21?

I: Uh...ha.

M: It wasn't but a hundred and something dollars.

I: No, it wasn't but a hundred and twelve.

M: Yeah, a hundred and twelve. That's what it was. Well, you ought to sell this __


CRK 71A









CRK 71A Page 19

from Alabama, too, I reckon. 'Cause there wasn't nothing there, they moved all the

Indians, drove them west, you know.

I: Yeah, that used to be a bender. I think the Creeks got out there and they was ready to

head home.

M: Used to be, I noticed a long time ago, a- n"lMg company in Oklahoma City, I believe,
Co l- 1 vr. 1 "^
by the name of Garver MPSEn Company. I just wonder if that is some of my descendents.

My grandmother, my mother was a Cae. 25ias....her daddy was a cave-. Name of this

company was the-Ga.awer--eMi4ien Company in Oklahoma City. I'm just wondering, if some-

how, I have descendents there.

I: Yeah, could be.

W; Could have been. Th- Indians up in Wisconsin%, what you call them?

M: Menominies. e

W: Menominias? _R\_rS different kind up there.

M: Let me see, what you call them, the VJ wCtb6r augh*e o'be north of C_'s_ .

These menominies, they west--east of A=I;w ie. They got 300,000 acres in their res-

ervation. They got a big saw mill on it.

W: /hey got the more timber than anybody I've seen..-.

M: Fin' timber ou jr cv 0k

W: ;____ o\ '_ -. They got a pine tree up there where's that/ it's

so big... 4 VC Lk -crcA C' f c-, r - c

M: tAin't that the name of that river -s-iang tirugh -Tdl Lake? T$., Wolf River.

Some of them Indians, I ders know, there's one up there, they had a house right on the

bank of that river. You could've fished out of his back door.

W: Yeah, that'satru,,, I wouldn't live tkhate-t~. Yt had a bunch of little children...

r\fall out and-_4i that Iimg!o~ p d. That's /cause the bank on the riverAb-4- eI.

M: The reason they was there, this chief of that tribe, the government, herwouldn't go.









CRK 71A Page 20

He refused to go. Sogsome*e,, they didn't try to force him. There's a big marke-r

right on the highway reads and tells you all about this ii-l--about the menomirtes, that

tP wouldn't budge, you know, that they couldn't move him. They just give him that

land of the 300,000 acres, that's the reservation. They got a big sawmill over there;

they got a big store. The last eight or ten years they built the big store there.

What, with that stl and that store, makes each one participate in the profits, sharing

the profits, see, what it maker.

I: A lot of them are trying to do now, start some kind of industry. I guess there's not

enough land productivity to employ the people.

(Wilma discussing something in background, cannot understand what is being said)

A: There will be a nigger president before you know it.

M: The stand alone, there will be. The niggers, they out-populating the whites,

the Indians. They Goe out Yvo\ see-"t "llYI want--nigger president. Some of

these towns now got nigger mayors, you know. This town down here in...Mobile, John Milton

Fletcher, dtnwia Mobile, they got nigger mayor.A There's a nigger mayor of Los ANgelps.

A'. Some of the congressmen are niggers, you.know.

I: Yeah.

M: The congressman from Massachusetts, I believe was a nigger. I believe from Massachusetts.

Up there in(HOlb,)a~;-g Y"O -hrz -, you don't see no niggers there.

I: There's none up there?

M: NoW No )now in Milwaukee, it's wrapped up with niggers. But on, further on up north,
'4IC/a A'-t' \ 'C% 11v C^-. ldq V65-
you don't see none.t Once in a while you might see one over there in 4^w. That's a
U-1, f^ri+\CJ Itir4rC0
town we, that's the county seat of that county. In AoiAiewe ie, bSkHi I don't know O

I ever saw one there, and I ain't never saw one in Green Bay. Ydu know where Green

Bay is, I know you've heard it, read of Green Bay.

I: I heard it but...









Page 21


M: But I ain't never saw a nigger in Green Bay.

I: Except playing football.

M: Yeah, vc-i ;AooA\,

A: The Green Bay Packers. They ain't been no good for about five years. That one year

when they won the Super Bowl, itaaptSIESe straight in a row. "ue..mffl f-hm,' they ain't

been no goods]'w._ -.,

I: How many more years you think you're going to be going to Wisconsin?

M: This is it, I think.

I: Think this is your last one?

M: I think this, f___ m -1-m .

W: Been trying to get him not to go this time, but...

M: I'm obligated. Hate to let the man down, you know.

I: Do you pay them boys? You give them boys some money or...

M: They pay them wages, you know.

I: Oh.

M: About $2.65 an hour. See, the man pays me so much on the hours. See, I have to get them

to work from the boarding house, back and forth eam'nam*atkm. Tell me at night. See,

he pays me by the hours.

I: By their hours, or by...

W: By their hours.

M: Yeah, by what they make.

W: It ain't good...I tell you working so hard. He just likes to go far down.

I: Do you have to pay people to haul them up like that?

M: He don't, he don't pay me enough. I charge ile& a little, you know, about ten dollars

a piece. And that's cheap to go ten or twelvehundred miles.

I: Yeah, that is cheap.


CRK 71A









Page 22


M: About ten dollars a piece, is what I charge them. I have to charge a little, cause

of, what he sends ain't enough to cover what... Then I charge them so much a week board.

My wife,she does the cooking. See, this year I'll get...I guess about a fifty-cent on-

the-hour-raise. I'll be getting, we're going to get $2.65 an hour, and then *~ieuld S4

#bonus. l tda as, you know, if you go there and stay until a~ get through, you get

the bonus. Go there and work two or three weeks, well, you don't get that bonus. You

go there and stay till you finish it. And that's when we get that bonus. They give it

to you the last day.

I: Two bucks on the hour bonus? That would add up pretty good there.

M: Yeah.

I: That brings it up almost three dollars a hour.

M: Th. ..-wayj wt w they started that...wdll, a long time ago, we used to have, we...a lot

of Mexicans that go up there. And they'd pay them off right up to date, see. And when

they got ready to move, they didn't, they finished, they didn't have no money to move

onv he state passed...they had t ___, so they went to hold them back with the

bonus. So when they got through, they'd have something, have 'semeithe g teamdaseso

get away onA We didn't...paying them up to date, they'd blow that money anyway,cand

throw it away, you know, as fast as they'd get it. So when we wound up, didn't none of

them have it. :t wtitl' So we adopted this rule, see.

I: Makes pretty good sense.

M: Yeah.

I: What's the most number of people you've hauled up there?

M: Oh, I ain't never carried...oh, about twelve or fifteen.

I: That's your average size crew, then.
H1 4- \hj>P k % 4 1. V k-3 4
M: Maowmaken fifteEmnA, ,B.hiaaea A don't be able to carry as \ ,
Oor\'4- c<^akr 4-o Cr-C 4t 4il+ *+*-j* /( i-H-C-C
I-Vo m.yi n' .B... ml -gt iL hmu-h. Of course, some of them backed out.

I: How many have you been able to get?


CRK 71A









CRK 71A Page 23


M: -winE

I: How many have you been able to get?

M: Well, I pretty well had a crew to start with, but two sisters backed out. I think maybe

now...let's see...two...five...that's...twelve I imagine is all I've got now. Four

women. A woman just come told me toniteher sister couldn't go. Her mother is sick,

or something like that. And this Walter Rowen, you know him, Walter Rowen, he was

out in front of Jackie's trailer today?

I: Yeah, I...

M: I've been depending on him. He said he was going to...tonite he told me he wasn't going

to go. That's six up there I've got notes from. I reckon they're going,now. My

.brother and myself, that's eight, and four women makes twelve.

I: You got six going from Poarch?

M: Four. Big Sam, you know him, don't you?

I: I don't think so.

M: Lives right beside the road.

I: Sam Ward?
-7
M: No, Sam...Lionel. You know, he 's got a long mustache.

A: Big____

M: His sister was told about wanting to go out. I come by there as soon as he said something

about his sister going. I don't whether she gonna go or not. I got a daughter-in-law

in 'on that's gonna go. She says she gonna go.& s odOh IC Co

(Daughter talking--cannot hear what is being said)

M: Twelve-thirty. You like to ride down with us?

I: I was up till four this morning. Yeah, i-" i GI' Ith C. c-.'

M: Who was that you told me died? Who? Who?

W: 6e*Y *ra.











-CRK; 7l cPage' 24
L: What =Iit- -at.-ti Lburyinghu.a u

I: -S LCjp;l'n.n

M: When did he die?

W: Last night.

M: When?
Co S- ________----_
W: Last night. And Elizabeth's in the hospitaltexpect4*satvs...

(discussion between Wilma, Loise, and Narva..cannot understand)

M: I wonder where they're burying the boy, Pensacola?

I: Oh, she's in Georgia now. They let her out. I think Saturday it was. Or sometime this

weekend. She went back with her mother it Georgia.

M: She didn't aim that bullet in the right place, did she?

I: No, she didn'tio.Didn't have a big enough gun or something.

U: I don't know what she wants to do now. She didn't want to gc za- 1khen- e-e --.er.
v\u\) Ck)) 17
W: I always thought she couldn't get along with herr~awaa- Sam, Helen, and

Ricky?

I: Yeah.

(Wilma again)

I: The Head Start people are going to be back soon, aren't they?

W: Yehh,they start back the fifth of Sp K b-. And then the children phback the-fte,

and Sam starts back the #a"Eh. T1 ,^, t-h-we'tea

I: No, I think they're fl-tiha Friday, that's what I heard.
C cb ^y+t-
W: Friday? (Wilma continues...)

I: No, I think I saw Toby, though. Sophie and Toby?


Page 24


CRK 71A




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