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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
CRK 55A
David Weaver (W)
Interviewer: J. Paredes ()
September 6, 1973
Typed by: P. F. Williams
I: The date of today is September the 6th, 1973, and I'm
talking with Mr. David Weaver, who began the Mennonite
work in the Creek Indian Community and is here for a
visit in Poorch and currently is working with the
Choctaw Indians in Mississippi. Mr. Weaver, if you
could just begin by talking about how you came upon
this community and when you first came here and how
you began your work.
W: All right. In 1950, I was approached by some of our
church leaders in Pennsylvania about need of personnel
in south Alabama to help with some new programs, mission
programs, in the Atmore, Alabama, area. We yd_6__A_
to this and moved to north of Atmore, northwest of
Atmore to the Ewil's farm in another part of 1950.
Our work there was to help along with the mission
church in Freemanville. And after we're living in
this area for a year, we decided to sell our property
in Pennsylvania and try to buy a small farm here in
this part of the county. The only farm, small farm,
available to us at that time was a farm that Mr. King
CRK 55A 2
had for sale which happened to be right in the middle
of the Poorch Indian Community. This community some-
times was called _Uc_ _ecs-- And so we
finally purchased that farm and moved there, not with
any idea of working with the Indian-people, but rather
continue our work with the Freemanville congregation.
But we weren't living there very long until two of
the Indian women from the community came to our house
and asked if we wouldn't be willing to start a Sunday
school for them, their families and some other families
that were interested in this kind of thing.
I: Who were those two women?
W: Well, one was Mrs. Martin here, and her sister, Mrs.
Sells, Roberta Sells. Now, we didn't know about one
factor of this until sometime after we lived here and
became better acquainted. Actually after we had started
the church, Sunday school and church program there.
Apparently there were some families in the community
that were desirous of some kind of a religious program
kt^M;e Wt- 1(5 Lo11 "6p r
for the- families andnwere not able to find the fellow-
ship in the only other available congregation in the
community. And I understood from them later on that
they had gotten together and prayed together that God
CRK 55A 3
would send somebody in to help them. Then, when we
moved in they felt it was their answer, that God ikem
answered their prayers. So we gave consideration to
this. First started with having Bible studies in the
homes, Indian homes. And this thing grew until we
finally decided to move in our home, we had able to
open two rooms into one. And we kept that going in
the summer of...up to the summer of '53. We-had
seventy attending in our home. Then we planned for
a summer vacation Bible school and got permission to
use the Indian schoolhouse and that was in the latter
part of July of 1953. We had the very interesting
Bible school, well-attended by...from the whole com-
munity. I believe that we had up to around a hundred
and fifty people coming to Bible school, average
attendance of a hundred and twenty to thirty people.
And then parents of the committee were urging to move
ahead into a regular mission church program, and so
we decided to continue with Sunday school at the school-
house and that was the first Sunday in August. I
believe it was August 3, 1953 we had our first Sunday
school in the schoolhouse. We couldn't continue using
CRK 55A 4
the -schoolhouse very long. They were getting ready
for school term. So we moved over to our home and
immediately built a two-car garage with two rooms
on the end, and we used that for about two years, us
preaching and Sunday school work there. And then
moved ahead and built the churchhouse in 1956. And
moved in there then.
I: There-s one that now called Poorch Community Chapel.
W: That's the one there. That's right. You asked some
questions. You asked how I learned to know about the
Indian people. I didn't know there was any Indian
people here until I moved here working at Freemanville
and then, in the interim of time there the first year,
I believe we made a contact with the older couple.
They're both dead now, Margie and Ed McGhee lived along
this gravel road here. And we stopped there one
Sunday-afternoon. They were sitting on the porch. We
stopped and chatted with them and I was really impressed
with the old couple. Very friendly and I guess, I
think that's where we first had our first Bible study--
"in their home.
I: And was this before or after you bought the King farm?
CRK 55A 5
W: That was before we bought the King farm. But we didn't
start Bible study in their home, then, until after we
had moved here. We bought the King farm in the early
part of 1953, I believe it was.
I: I've heard some people mention that at one time there
were Mennonite services in a tent. Is that correct?
W: Yes. The year before the Bible school in the school-
house, we erected a tent and had Bible school. But I
must say that at that time response was very poor. I
think the people didn't know who we were and were rather
suspicious as to what our aims and goals were.
I: Was this before or after Mrs. Martin and Mrs. Sells
came to you?
W: That was before.
I: That was before?
W: Before. A year before that.
I: Why had you decided before that to put up the tent and
start services?
W: Well, see the policy of the mission evangelism committee
of our denomination was that we should go into any com-
munity where there are no churches, set up a tent, and
see what the interests of the people are. This led into
a lot of different communities which they may have had
CRK 55A 6
Bible school in a tent or schoolhouse for one or two
summers and the people weren't interested in this kind
of timing, so we just dropped it. Other places 0es
built it up into a congregation. There's
about a dozen different Mennonite churches in the state
of Alabama --of course, there's some few across the
Florida line--which is called the Alabama District
which all developed from this type of a program as
we did here. But the interest was not very good in
the year in the tent. But then, by the time we had
moved here and learned to know the people, communicate
with them, this changed completely from maybe twenty
people coming to Bible school in the tent, a year later
a hundred and fifty came, see. It made the difference
of learning to know the people.
I: Let me ask you a few quick questions. Was your work
in Freemanville originally intended to work with the
black people of Freemanville or the white people?
W: The white people.
I: White people.
W: Primarily the poorer class whites. The Ewings' farm
was sharecropper, large...
I: At that time it still was?
CRK 55A 7
W: Yeah, still was. See, we were asked to move in that
area and we were moved back on the Ewings' farm. We
leased a parcel of ground, a hundred acres, and farmed
ourselves to make our own living. We're not supported
by the church, we made our own living. But the six
or eight families living on that farm, all the rest
of them were sharecroppers.
I: Were they Indians or what?
W: White sharecroppers.
I: White sharecroppers.
W: And these were the ones that I was bringing to church,
working with them in that area, and Brother
was working in the Freemanville and Atmore area. And
this emerged into a congregation. And of course, then
we moved here and started our work up here.
I: Let me ask you, when you were working in Ir b e- ,
how much participation did you get from the Indian
people living over in what they call Fort Switch and
Hog Fort?
W: Not too much. We had some in the early stages, but as
the years went by, it became less and we put our thrust
into this community here.
I: Did you actively go over there trying to work with the
people in those areas?
CRK 55A 8
W: I did, -Za-the first&JI ti-i through all these
communities. And of course, there were active churches
in those areas and it's always been our policy not to try
to proselyte, take people away from their churches.
We would visit with those that were active members,
enjoy the fellowship together, share together, and many
times they'd call me even to come over and help their
problems, but I'd never...those that were active in
churches, we encouraged them to continue in their
churches, but those that were not going to church any-
where we would try to help them meet their spiritual
needs.
I: How long did stay here before you i and what were the
circumstances of your leaving here?
W: Well, the reason for leaving here was that, I'm not
quite sure what year it was that the Baptist church
from town, First Baptist Church, erected a tent over
in the other community and got an Indian preacher from
Mississippi to come and have meetings. And that's the
first I knew there was Indians in Mississippi. And it's
the first time Indians here knew there was Indians in
Mississippi! And so through that, later on traveling
through Mississippi, I stopped in and checked in with
the Choctaw Indian Agency headquarters in Philadelphia,
CRK 55A 9
Bureau of Indian Affairs office.
I: Excuse me just a minute, but it would be a great help
to me if you could sort of guess more of less what
time period when that tent did get put up in Fort
Switch.
W: Um, I'd say about '57, 1957.
I: And that was the First Baptist Church in Atmore.
W: Atmore/put that tent up. And the evangelist, Indian
evangelist's name was Clay Gibson. And he mentioned
a little bit about the plight of their people there,
and Ja stirred the interest of the Indian people here
in our congregation. Why shouldn't we go over there
and see what our Indian people over there, their living
style, what are their needs, and so on. So I took ti-s- A
station wagon loaded with folks here, Mr. and Mrs. Martin,
#RDU \
and I believe Brian and Clara-ek4-i.--he's no longer
living--and one or two others. And we went and made a
tour of the various reservations and they really were
shocked at how poor and primitive these people are
living. And they began to push me pretty hard to get
over there, get something started over there. Because
the idea was that we appeal to our mission board up
in the northeast and let them send someone in there
CRK 55A 10
and get started. But this never developed, so in 1958,
well, '57 we tried. We madecontact in February of
'57. So it would have been '56 when the Indian preacher
was over here.- l bI c {( >i.
'57, February, we went over there and looked at the
various reservations. We tried to...well, the chairman
of the Choctaw Indian Agency told us that he dare not,
being a federal employee, advise us as to mission and
church work. But he said if you want to see some of
the most primitive and poor Indians, go to Neshobaville.
And so we went out there and very poor. And
so there's an old chief had control of that community,
Cameron Wesley, Chief Cameron Wesley. And he was very
friendly. He was very happy to meet these Indian people
from Alabama. e--was a great joy to him because he
didn't know there were overhere. So he then...well,
I asked him, I said, "Could we come and have a Bible
school with your people sometime?" And he finally
said, "Well, maybe so. We'll try and work it out."
But every time I'd write to him he'd write back and
say, "No, can't have this." And I found out what it
was. lHe a+- some of the other older IndiarS9did not
CRK 55A 11
want anything to do with the white man's religion.
They don't want the white man's Bible. They had
their own tradition, legends that they were holding
on to, promoting among the younger Indians of that
time. And so it was in 1958 that I went back over
with a fellow helper, Paul Dagin, and visited with
the old chief. When we came there he was very happy
to see us because he was planning a big Indian meeting
and he wanted us to bring the Creek Indians over for
his big meeting. And so, I finally put it this way
to him, "All right, chief. I'll bring the Creek
Indians if you let us come and have a Bible school
a week before your big meeting that Sunday." And
that's what broke the ice. And he finally said,
W all right /We'll let you do that." And we
got started g&AA Ite aC^Phy t 4 W rLt/ .
And then, of course, we tried to find someone to move
in to take over the place there as a missionarybut
it was impossible to find. The mission board asked
us if we would do it, go over and start the work there.
So we moved there in 1959. June of 1959.
I: I'll come back there in just a moment. What was the
CRK 55A 12
nature of the meeting they were having there?
W: All right, this was a thing that surprised us. During
that week in visiting in the Indian homes over there,
the Choctaw people, they were talking about their plans,
asking about their plans for Sunday. Well, "We make
cry." Well, we didn't knowA We thought maybe it was
a term they used for some kind of food they prepare.
So that Sunday morning when I got to the chief's house,
we had the Bible school at the chief's house, rather,/
his son's house right here by his own house, he came
to me, he said, "You have your meeting first then we
have ours." And so we had just the regular preaching
service. People had settled on the porch and
out in the yard and I stood out in the yard and
preached to them. But I noticed while I was preaching
some of the Indians were walking around with quilts
folded neatly hanging over their arms. And while
I was preaching a truckload of Indians pulls up there
and they get off and the women were carrying quilts.
And so after we-were through, the old chief got out in
the yard and made a speech. They used their Choctaw
language which I don't understand. Made a long speech,
CRK 55A 13
and while he was speaking I noticed 2P 'Z '
-PC Vn C out in the yard, middle of the yard, there
were three planks on blocks. And when he was speaking
to the group, they started...the women started first
assembling to these blocks. And as many as could sit
on these planks sat on them and the others sat around
them on the ground. And a few of the men on the outer
circle of this group. And then all of a sudden they
unfolded these quilts and they covered themselves com-
pletely over--as many as had quilts, some didn't have
quilts--but they all sat there and they literally cried.
They wailed. And Benny, that's the chief's son, was
sitting on the porch with me and I just...I'll tell you,
I couldn't figure what was going on, you know. I said,
"Benny, what is this?" "Well," he said, "this is our
cry." I said, "Well, what's it all about?" "It's our
funeral." Then he explained his daddy is a medicine
man for the tribe and some woman from down on the reser-
vation was brought to their house and he doctored on
her. She died there. So they buried her and now they
were having their funeral. And then, studying back and
doing some research on their history, I found out that
this was a custom of the tribe, and years ago before the
CRK 55A 14
white man came that if somebody died, they were for-
bidden to shed any tears or show any sign of grief at
the burial. They just sent the runners out across their
Indian country and then they'd come together a& a cer-
tain day, and then they'd have their cry. And this is
a carryover.of that thing, that's what 4&ie W&Ut kolu'
I: Who were some of the Creek Indians that you took along
with you over there?
W: Uh, well, let's see. Brian and Clara Rolin. I believe
Willis McGhee and his wife. Mr. and Mrs. Martin. I
believe there's six of them had been along to that meeting.
I: What was their reaction to the cry?
W: Well, same as mine. They were just astonished, you know.
Andlof course, looking back on the Creek tribe, they V4-^
probably had similar traditions that were lost unto the
years where there they had been keeping, hanging on to
theirktraditions.
I: Just out of curiosity, did any of the people from here
make any kind of comparative comments between that and
their custom of sitting up with the dead at all?
W: No, they did not. They did raise some question as to
"Did our people do this thing, too?" Years ago, you
CRK 55A 15
know. This kind of ,thing.
I: After you left, was there anyone to come to replace
you to pick up the work?
W: Yes. This Dagin had come in the year before to help
and so he stayed here as the pastor.
I: And how long did he stay here?
W: Well, he stayed several years until he was ordained
bishop, as they call them, in this district here.
The general overseer of the whole total area. And
then he was replaced by a man, we sent him here from
Pennsylvania, by the name of Paul rMlmono.
I: About what year was that?
W: I don't know. Paul may have come about '61, '62,
Along there. I believe so.
I: All right. How long did he stay?
W: He stayed until--should have some dates here--about
three years ago. I'd say around '69 or '70 )hen.he
left. And he went back to Virginia. He went back
to seminary, really. He's up there at the present
time.
I: Now, just very frankly, I've heard that there was...
at some period of time there was a fair number of
people in the community who turned away from the
CRK 55A 16
Mennonite religion. What was that all about and when
did that happen?
W: That's the time when Brother Lemmon left. I'm not sure
it's a proper thing to put on there, but...
I: Well, I need...
W: ...you can __ -__ it out if you want.
I: Yeah.
W: What really happened was in the very early stages of
the church work here, we immediately recognized the 0a
problem that is predominan t n this area here, and
that was of marriage breaking up, remarriage--divorce
and remarriage. And the Mennonite church the last
seventy-five years has taken a pretty stern stand that
anyone who has been divorced and remarried could not
be a member of the church. And that was the issue.
Of course, with me living with the people and working
with them, sharing with their problems, I came up
with a different idea. Not I alone, I mean this is
a trend within the church, re-thinking, re-studying
the whole divorce issue. This worked all right in
our Mennonite society where you had very, very seldom
ever had a marriage break up. And so, we didn't
i r, face the problem. We get out here in the
CRK 55A 17
mission field it's something else. It's like one man
told me, one Indian man told me here soon after I
started, said, "If this has been a Bible fact, where
have you people been thirty years ago? Why didn't
you come and tell us? We could have avoided some
of these problems, you know." Kind of shook me
of co uvs *4
up. And so, I was over in Mississippi and I was
out of it. See, when I was here, there were a num-
ber were converted to the faith. And in one case,
it was tried to advise that they have to break up
their relationship or they can not become members of
the church, and they did this for a period of time.
Maybe a year.
I: Some of the people actually did this?
W:' They did this. And it didn't work out. Here's a
family. The father's away from the mother and the
children and parental care and all that. Well, it
didn't work. I knew it wouldn't work.
I: How many couples actually did that?
W: Just one.
I: Just one?
W: One couple. Of course, then, the thing that bothered r-'
CRK 55A 18
was we couldn't reach these people, so...
I: Which couple was that?
W: So...of course, I was out of it when I moved over, of
course. But up to that point, I recognized them as
re-
Christians and used them in the church work,'(l Sun-
day school teachers, Bible school teachers.
I: Did you have to keep quiet about this with your higher-
ups?
W: Well, there's some...no, it wasn't kept quiet. And some
of the higher-ups really felt badly toward me because
of this. I mean, I went through a lot of pressure
because of this. And of course, then, when I moved
out, Brother Dagin continued the same policy. But
then pressure came on and as more people moved in
from Pennsylvania and other areas that had this strong
idea on this to the extent that some of them didn't
want the fellowship with the church because we had
these people involved ,in the church work. And when
the report got out in the Indian community that these
Mennonite people that moved in here from Pennsylvania
more recently would not help Bible school because some
of these were helping with Bible school. And that's
CRK 55A 19
what broke the thing off. They left. They fled the
Mennonite church.
I: And that was about three years ago?
W: Uh, four years ago.
I: Four?
W: Well, see, I came in, back in, three years ago. I was
asked then, but the amazing thing about it, the bishops
of the conference--which is called the Lancaster conference
in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where the headquarters is--
and their Eastern Mennonite Board of Missions appealed
to me to come back and-4 bring healing to the congregation.
And that's when I came back in, only about three years
ago.
I: How long were you here when you came back three years ago?
) tLA
W: Well, see, I came...I lived here in Mississippi. I drove
here every two weeks.
I: Oh.
W: And re-established the church. Well, they had started
their own services then.
I: At the same...?
W: No, they had a...
I: At Roberta Sells' place.
W: That's right. And that's when they asked me to come back
CRK 55A 20
and I counseled with the leaders of this conference
that's responsible. See, I'm not under the same
conference over there. Different ..same denomination,
but different organizations here.
I: What conference are you with there?
W: We're with the Eastern...the Ohio Eastern Conference
there.
I: Um-hmm. This is Pennsylvania Conference?
W: This is Pennsylvania. Lancaster County Conference
actually has charge of this area here. And so I
counseled with these leaders of both the mission
board and the secretary of their conferences awd I
told them that they'd asked me to come back to help
them establish a church. And they said if they have
asked you, you go. They said they are afterall our
brothers in the Lord and they need help and you shall
go. And so I did come back.hea..s ne year I drove
over here every two weeks and had preaching service
and organized the church again...
I: To re-establish this...
W: And then we appealed to their conference to give the
Indian folks back their church. What had happened Wkb
a number of families had moved in from Pennsylvania
CRK 55A 21
which became the controlling factor in that church.
And then, T+ course, lt^>K Indians walked out, they
had the church. The other group had the church. And
yet the church was built for the Indian people alone.
I mean, that was an Indian congregation when I was here.
My wife and I were the only whites--well, our children--
the only whites that were in this church other than the
local people. And so, of course, what happened was it
became a white man's church and they controlled it then.
But the conference leaders and the mission board leaders
were open enough to see that this is not the proper
thing. Down the road five miles there is a Mennonite
church primarily for whites.
I: Freemanville.
W: Freemanville. And so we appealed to them, then, to give
us back the church. And it took a negotiation of...well,
they first agreed to lease it to us. Their leaders came
down, they talked with us and they talked with the others
involved here and they felt strongly that it should go
back to the Indian people. And there's no need to have
two competing congregations in the same area. In other
words, they continue in that church and we'd have to
build another church because we had a strong congregation
CRK 55A 22
emerging there. nVFYt Ar- sixty people
attending church at that time.
I: And those whites that went to that church were the
Lancaster Pennsylvania Conference.
W: Um-hmm [affirmative].
I: And you reorganized the Indian congregation as Eastern
Ohio...
W: That's right.
I: ...Conference.
W: Well, I just reorganized it as an independent congregation.
I: That's right.
W: But it took-m several years now, well, a year ago they
beganAtalking that since I'm so deeply involved with them
and I'm...actually they appealed to the Ohio Conference
that-Ishould become their overseer. See, I, we finally
found a man to help on at least a temporary basis '?, f W
And so they appealed that
I should not forsake them and they appealed to the executive
committee of the conference that I should be appointed by
them as their overseer, which I am serving that capacity
at the present time.
I: Let me get something straight. When you first came here,
CRK 55A 23
were you in the Lancaster Pennsylvania Conference.yourself?
W: That's right.
I: Were you in that until the time you went to the Choctaw?
W: Th'-s right.
I: Well, what was the reason for the-change of conference
when you went to the Choctaw?
W: One reason, the primary reason was that the Lancaster
Conference felt it was out of their area. They felt
that, see, there were other...on the Gulf Coast in
Mississippi there are other Mennonite churches. And
they felt that they were actually getting across the
boundary to somebody else's territory. But they did
send us over there and give us support for a half a
year just to try and see what would happen. And
at the end of that half-year they came back and said
that we feel we can not continue, you can go
back to Poorch. And I told them...they actually
urged us to come back. But we felt that it took us
that half a year-or a little bit more than a half a
year when they came on the scene--to win the confidence
of those Indian:people, and for us to walk out would
be letting them down severely. And we felt we shouldn't
CRK 55A 24
do that. So they said, well, go ahead and continue
then, but be looking for someone else to take up the
support and the work. And that's what happened, then.
The Ohio Conference..factually it's a congregation in
Ohio was looking for a mission out station as they call
it to support, and through that that brought us into
the Ohio and Eastern Conference.
I: And conferences are just simply organizational devices.
W: That's right, yeah. They...
I: There's no doctrinal differences in these conferences.
W: No, there may be variations as on this divorce question.
I: Uh-huh.
W: The Ohio Conference has a different position which came
up, .oh, mostly within the last ten years. It was very...
the same up until that point. Our conference decision
was that a person who has been divorced and remarried and
then finds the Lord, if they give evidence of a real
experience of salvation, that we accept them on their
experience. Where the Lancaster Conference has not
officially taken this step, but they are doing this in
several cases. They have done it without official action
of conference.
CRK 55A SF
I: So, this church, Poorch Community Church, is in
actuality a Mennonite church.
W: That's right, yeah. That was their own decision. I
never pushed for that.
I: And two of the women, Clara Rolin and her daughter
Ella, are still in the Lancaster Conference.
W: That's right. Now that was....their attachment to the
ones, to the Mennonite families that came here from
Pennsylvania was that deep that they preferred to
continue with the Lancaster Conference group. And
they were the only two that that happened LgA ..
I: Now, when you had your church here, at the strongest
point, who were some of the main members of the Indian
community? Just so you can sort of list off some of
the names...
W: You mean here in this local community?
I: In this Indian community.
W: All right. You're referring to our church program
now.
I: Right. The time that you were here.
W: Well, in the early stages, these emerged: Mr. and Mrs.
Martin--Edie and Willie Lee Martin, Brian and Clara
Rolin, Willis McGhee and his wife Rentha, and then their
CRK 55A ;2&
mother, Bessie McGhee. Now, the father, Will McGhee,
attended church regularly but he never became a member.
Those were the real strong element in the Indian
community there, in our church.
I: What about Margie and Ed McGhee?
W: Uh, Margie and Ed attended regularly until the Baptist
church started, then they transferred to the Baptist
church. And then, at the time when this division came
here and the new church emerged, they came back...well,
just before that, they came back into the Mennonite
church, then, broLuJ' their membership here. I
had Y-Vj\ \ meetings here at the ti-e I
guess they made their decision to transfer their mem-
bership here. But then at that time is when this division
came and Margie died. I'm not sure what year that was.
She was still a member of the group that remained the
Lancaster Conference. But then, right after that is
when we started having service here and Ed brought his
membership into our church. Now he's not living anymore
either.
< .............................. ...........................
I: Uh, what about Eugene and Roberta Sells? Were they ever
in your church?
CRK 55A 4
W: They were not until. since we have reorganized. They
have become members. Now, they attended faithfully for
a long time.
I: Roberta was one that came with Willie Lee originally to
get your...
W: That's right. That's right, yeah. She was the one
that had Oi. interest to getAthing started and never
officially united with the church. I think there was
a problem of accepting sore ..in the early stages of
the Lancaster Conference work here when I first began,
we had a very rigid...actually, that conference operated
more on a rigid basis of, well, rules and regulations
set up by the bishops of the conference. And there
were some of these things that were actually cultural
carry-overs from our German background, Swiss-German
background. And some of this was not acceptable with
our Indian people. I think this is one of the hang-ups
that Ed and Margie hadand maybe Roberta and Eugene had.
I: What were those specific cultural carry-overs?
W: Well, it was in the type of dress that were required.
And I was under pressure to initiate a program of
redressing these Indian people in a cultural pattern
CRK 55A
that came through a Swiss-German culture, see. And
I wasn't minded that way. I might add some of the
other church leaders in Alabama didn't feel the kindest-
nees toward me because I did not adhere to a strict
standard of what they were trying to present.
I: Were there dress standards other than the women's
cap?
W: No, there was other standards.
I: Oh?
W: What was callai the APCf -dress for the women. And men...
they had tried earlier what was called the plain coat
for the men--standing collar, straight collar--which
is not practiced in the anymore and the
CAPPE -dress is not. But that's why they were
requiring that we should promote this kind of thing.
In fact, the first converts that we had were dressed
in these cape-dresses. My wife had to make them. And
I couldn't see this. They were very conservative in
their dress. They were not then fully dressed as their
nature was that they wanted to be s eseA., you know.
So when they changed bishops from Pennsylvania--see,
at that time they had bishops from Pennsylvania serving
CRK 55A
us--the older bishop was very, very considerate. He
said he sees our point and is not requiring that they
do this. There are some of these things I think were
a little bit hard for some of the Indians to accept
as their pattern of dress for life, for their life,
you know. And so then since that time after the
church has been reorganized, now these have come into
the church.
I: Did you ever have any conferences or visits with the
Pentecostal and Holiness preachers?
W: Oh, yes. I've had quite a few..
I: How did you get along with them?
W: Well, with the Pentecostal church over here in the
first Fort Switch community, we had a very good relation.
I: Was Mace McGhee the minister at that time?
W: No, Brooks Rolin was.
I: Brooks Rolin.
W: Brooks Rolin was and it might be 'i to you-
after Brooks left;,/here's no need to go into what happened,
it was a very bad situation.
I: I know.
W: They were without a pastor and the folks there were
talking to the Indian people, members of our church
CRK 55A 1sP
or I believe primarily Willis McGhee, that they just
don't have...well, they tried to have service by them-
selves but they had no real leader. And Willis asked
me if I'd be willing to preach in the Pentecostal
church. I said if they want me to preach I'll sure
do it. I'll help them all I can, not try to draw from
them but help them keep their church intact, you know.
And so this worked out that I had every other Sunday
night, that was the only night I had open on a Sunday,
I preached for them and then every Thursday ora I
believe it was Thursday night of the week I had a service
for them and I did this for the whole summer until
another Pentecostal preacher came in.
I: Who was the preacher that came in?
W: Well, I tell you, it was a white man. I'm not sure
if I can recall his name anymore. He heard that I
was coming in there and he...I think it was kind of
a...he was afraid I might influence them. And Mace
was attending church but he was not a preacher at that
time. But I and Mace have had very good relations.
I: What year was that that you did that service for them?
W: I would say about 1957. I believe so.
3(
CRK 55A 3EF
I: About the same time you were starting contact with
the Choctaws.
W: That's right. Before I moved over there then. And
the other church at Hog Fort over there, a lot of the
members I'eve been very personally acquainted with, you
know, we're very good friends, visit in their homes,
this kind of thing. Butwith their church leaders
we could not have any fellowship. Indeed, they took
the idea that they are the only right church, this
kind of thing, that tS ei. \ rC\1 V
We-ditdrLt- believe in this kind of thing and so they
didn't want...
I: The _
W: Yeah, yeah. __ yeah. When we first started
Bible school, their families came over. When those
ministers--they had no local minister then.-but their
preacher found out, you see, from down in Pensacola,
I believe, and he came in and stopped the whole thing.
But they didn't never associate with us. Now, the
other church, we have very good relationships and
fellowship and dinners together, this kind of thing.
There's a lot of going back and forth.
I: Now, the Church of God of Prophecy has come in since
CRK 55A
your time, I guess.
W: That's right, yes. I know some of the folks that
attend there. I don't know if it's active anymore
or not.
I: They just built the new building.
W: They have. I've seen it, been over there.
I: Did you ever engage in any kind of what we might call
social or welfare-type projects as well as religious?
W: Yes, we have this. One of the first problems we faced
when we started working here, moved here and started
the church, the Indian folks were somewhat amazed at
the amount of money we could collect through offerings.
Sunday school offerings accumulated an we used to buy
our material and have some left over. And they came
to me one day and said why can't we do something for
our people who have to go to the hospital and don't
have any money? At that time, there were actually
some of the folks that were...they wouldn't accept
them unless they had so many dollars to put down.
And some of the folks did not get the hospital service
locally here because there just was no money. And so
CRK 55A 4r
I worked out a plan and drew up a set of guidelines.
And once a month we'd take a special offering for
hospital which is to be kept in reserve. And this
became operative I believe in about 1953 or '54, it
would have been '54 at least. And it was kept active
even after I was gone up until.the church divided here.
They had...it served the people all those years and had
accumulated a balance le-I think nearly a thousand
dollars in the treasury. I think it was disbanded.
That was not only confined to our membership or to
those that attend ...it was not confined to membership.
It was primarily for those that were in faithful
attendance in the church Sunday school work. And
then those that were of other communities, there
were some needs and our Indian people, compassionate
as they were for their people, came and said) well,
can we take some of our funds, you know, to help
over there if somebody is very desperate in need.
And this was done in a number of cases by the vote -of
the congregation if they agreed that, let's say,
so many dollars could be used for that.
I: Did you ever cooperate with the Episcopal church in
CRK 55A
any education or social programs of any kind?
W: Not...well, we did cooperate. Not really in any
specified programs. We had a lot of things in common
and the Episcopal people were very good friends of
ours, and we...
I: Was it Reverend Merkel who was...
W: Merkel?
I: ...the minister most of the time you were here?
W: Yeah. He was minister the time I was here, and we
counseled with him before fit-ever start when the
Indians came to us. Now, he tried to deny it. He
got in trouble with the Indian people because of
what he told us. And I guess we weren't careful
enough not to share. He didn't tell us not to say
what he said, but after some of the Episcopalian
people here when we started raised some questions
why we didn't go ahead and help them up there. And
the reason was it's not that...of course we're a
different denomination, that's one reason. But it
wasn't that...we were very cautious about beginning
because we didn't like the idea of railroading our-
selves in ove- another church ____t- But what
CRK 55A
had happened that time, the Episcopdj church had all
but died out. We attended their services several
Sunday by the invitation of our Episcopal neighbors.
And there were very few...I think there's just...the
most that were there any time we were there was about
twelve people in a community where there were a hundred
and fifty to two hundred people. So we knew that a
lot of people were not being reached. And then of
course, because of these people asking us to start,
we went and talked with Preacher Merkel. And he said
to us right away, he said, "Well, if they want you to
have a church, then go ahead." He said, "I'll just
admit I've been working with them so many years, I
forget what he said 3)and he said,"I've just had no
success with those peopleout.there." And later on
this got out. You know, I shared it with some of
our intimate friends and they jumped him about it.
And he didn't want to admit it then, and they claimed
that I was lying about it. They said that
And we did try
to have good relations with them. Their Bible school
teacher they sent in, we attended some of their Bible
CRK 55A aS
schools as best we couldcpand we did not discourage
our people from attending their Bible schools and
the services when we didn't have services. We did
it ourselves, you know.
I: Had Mrs. Bradshaw begun her work the time you were
here?
W: Yes. Let's see. Was she one of the first ones....?
Yeah, she was...I believe there was somebody ahead
of her, though. I'm not quite sure. I know we had
them down at our house, Mrs. Bradshaw and the other
teachers 4iad come and had supper at our house. We
sat down and had a real good time together.
I: This is really just an opinion question. Do you feel
like your work in any way stimulated the Episcopal
church to send in those people?
W: Oh, yes. Yes. They were dying at that point. And
soon after we had started...well, I'd say in the
third year of our work, maybe, that it was going
very badly up there. And they had so much dis-
satisfaction among them, discord, they couldn't
get along together, this kind of thing. And I
know they called a special meeting and they had the
J7
CRK 55A
bishop from up in Birmingham down, a young man. I
forget what his name was. Very fine young man.
Anyway, our Episcopal neighbors came by and said we're
having a special meeting in our church this afternoon,
why don't you come up?" And, well, out of respect
we went, you know. Never had any idea what was being...
going to be done. And here you had a...called this
man in and he called the community people of their
church together to find out what they can do to get
their church back on its feet again. And well,
there I sat. I guess I really should have been out.
And they brought up their church problems, you know,
and then he, of course, dealt with some of these things
right there. And one of the...finally, he said to them,
"1ow, you aren't telling me actually about what you have
been talking among yourselves and to me privately. And
he said,."Some of the folks have been telling me that
what the Mennonite church did is what we need for the
Episcopal church." And said.would it be helpful if he'd
find somebody to buy a small piece of property and live
here with you people just like the Mennonites have done?
And I didn't know if I should get up. which would be the
least embarrassing for me, to get up and walk out or to
CRK 55A
stay there, you know. And so that was the result of
that meeting that they brought these in. TheyKbuilt
that little building there and brought workers in
and tried to rebuild their church. I don't know what,
how much they-i. )' t.i A have in their church at
the present time, but even today...I mean, last night
I had preaching up here at the community church. There
were three or four of the Episcopalian people there
in the service. They're very personal friends of mine.
And a thing that may kind of surprise you, after we had
organized, reorganized the church here and the first
communion service that I had...they called me and
said they'd like to have communion served and wondered
if I'd come over and serve the...which I did. When
I came over, the churchhouse was packed full. And
there were Pentecostals, the Episcopalians, Baptists,
and the Mennonites. And it's not our custom to have
open communionbut I did that night. They all communed
together!
I: Uh, speaking of communion and other sacraments, do you
baptize by immersion the Mennonites?
W: Both ways. Now...
I: Have you done it here?
CRK 55A
W: Here it's been primarily by what we call pouring,
and that is literally pouring water on the head of
the applicant. We would have baptized by immersion
if the hierarchy of our church would have permitted
it. We Irak-. e with that thing and actually lost
some people to other churches because they could
not see our mode of baptism. And I felt since we
accept people on their former baptism when they
have been immersed and do not re-baptize them to
accept them in our church, we were inconsistent
not baptizing that way if they could see no other
way. And so we couldn't do it here because the
Lancaster Conference _u oat_ \i o .
But under our Ohio Conference we are permitted to do
thisoand the new mission I just began last year
among the Choctaw people, I baptized seven about
two months ago and every one was by immersion.
I: In your church, what constitutes becoming a member?
W: We stress rather stronglytpersonal experience of
salvation, recognizing of our sinfulness without
God, confession of this to the Lord, and accepting
forgiveness for the sins of the past. We do believe
CRK 55A 40
very strongly the fundamental view of conversion,
regeneration, and justification.
I: And this must be done publicly at a church meeting
before a congregation?
W: It doesn't have to be. We require)if somebody has
found this experience private in the home, a testimony
before the congregation.
I: And so that's a very personal experience?
W: It's a very personal experience. We accept their
testimony. We can't determine what's in the heart.
A person, if he come even...the Pentecosts have an
altar call, you know. We do give an altar call, but
we don't require that a person come to the altar and
pray and weep like they do. A person can decide for
themselves in a public meeting that they want to take
this step of faith and express either by standing or
coming forward. And then we'll deal with them, talk
with them and find out where they're at ii their desire
their experience.atd we just have to accept what the
people tell us.
I: And after that experience and testimony to that ex-
perience, if the person had been previously baptized
CRK 55A 41
in another church by immersion, that would be accepted?
W: Oh, yes.
I: And if he had not ever been baptized, then he would be
baptized at that ____ ?
W: um-hmm [affirmative]. The only exception
made to baptism, we do not accept those who have been
baptized as infants. We do believe in believers'
baptism and in those cases we do re-baptize.
I: You wouldn't accept either someone who had been baptized
as an adult by sprinkling?
--S
W: Oh, yes.
I: You would?
W: Oh, yes. If they're satisfied with their past baptism
experience. We do not accept infant baptism. We believe
in believers' baptism. If that person has been sprinkled
as an adult and has no feelings that ___ interfere
with his personal commitment at that time to the church,
to the Lord, we would accept him on that.
I: Let me ask you very quickly, what kind of interest did
Calvin McGhee and all of his land plans work have in
your work?
W: We had a very close contact with Calvin McGhee. And we
tried to...he asked us to help the Indian people in
CRK 55A 42
our community to find their way as to making their
claims and so on. Of course, we were in the thing when
the....actually we came here soon after the .thing got
started. remember the big meeting we had up here in
the schoolhouse. And the federal government claimed
there were no Indians in Alabama. And so they sent
three men down and they had the big meeting. We just
had moved on the farm right behind the schoolhouse
there.
I: Three federal men.
W: Three federal menffrom Washington came down, and they
came with a claim that there are no Indians in Alabama
so they had no claim on the federal government for the
land they took from them back laa many years ago. And
that time I remember I was...I wasn't inside. I went
up, but there were so many Indians, that;schoolhouse was
packed tight. They couldn't even get in that place.
And they took pictures that night of the Indian people.
They said, "We'll have to admit you're Indians," even
though the government said they're all in Oklahoma, you
know. We did work closely with Calvin on eame things.
He was very friendly to us. The only thing that he ever
CRK 55A 43
kicked up about was when we had asked for the use of
the schoolhouse, he gave permission. And then later,
somebody who tried to interfere with what we were
trying to do.. .our hearts were clear. I mean, we
didn't have any...he claimed that he was told, informed,
that the reason we asked for the schoolhouse was because
the Indians were not accepted in the congregation down
the road. There was discrimination. He was very much...
he was heated that time he eane to me. I
tried to explain to him that that's not the case, even
though there might be some be some white folks in A /i-t4
/_____ that don't like to well the Indians...
I: You mean not //tJUt/tl but...
W: I mean Freemanville. Neshobaville is a place over in
Mississippi. Freemanville. But that we do this every-
where.i.Where there's a community open we will go in,
even though they may not be very far apart, just like
Freemanville is just north of Atmore. And then _u_ vil
5s just south and east of Atmore in Florida there.
And he began to understand. And then afterwards he told
me that he appreciated the way that we had tried to help
the Indian people so many different ways. And he one
time suggested that maybe they ought to do with us like
CRK 55A 44
they have done in some other places. They have
adopted some of the white folks into their tribe and
I'd become an Indian. I never got that far!
I: But he took that on his own initiative to come and
challenge you about this...
W: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. He did.
I: And the kind of th igs he was referring to,very quickly)
that you have done to help the people. What do you
think he had in mind?
IM1
W: Well, in the community, we helped .the a number of
different ways. For instance, some of the people were
that poor they had no credit to even...they had land
but they couldn't farm the land. They couldn't get
the credit to get fertilizer and seed, and so I just
helped them out. In other words, I at
the bank. The bankers were very slowAeven to endorse.
I did this in several cases and I got caught on one
case where the person was buying a property and they
had to have so many dollars and I never got all paid
back. Of course, that's water over the dam. But in
these cases...that was not in this community, h-W
was in the other community. But in this community
here, I helped them out by using my credit to furnish
CRK 5JA 45
the- fertilizer and seed for their crop until the crop
was harvested and I'd get my money out and they'd have
the balance as their own income. Trying to get chil-
dren into school, keep them in school. This kind of
thing. The hospital plan. That benefited some of
Calvin's people over in his community, you know. And
even after I was in Mississippi, he never came to pay
me a visit. He was over there, but if I was over here
he'd get in contact with me and find out what we were
doing over there. He was really interested in what
things we had actually we were more involved
in Mississippi than we were here, because there's
more things to be done over there and more agents to
work through. I'm working very closely with the Choctaw
Indian Agency in their social and welfare work. Such
as finding homes for Indian children from homes where
parents...well, they're either broken-up homes or
drunkenness where they're not able to take care of
their children. And the schools, they have no schools
over there in Neshoba. 1 children .ae' go to school
anywhere over there. They weren't accepted in the white
school and they couldn't go in the black schools either
CRK 55A 46
"ard .o they finally kept prodding them over there until
they finally brought a school into the community.
I: Did I understand you correctly that the people, the
Creek Indian people here encouraged you to leave them
and go to the Choctaws?
W: No, they encouraged us to go over there and see what
the needs are. And when they saw the needs, they were
on my neck all the time to get somebody in there and
help those people, you know. They didn't think at that
time that I was going to leave them, but after we really
came down to itI brought it before the congregation--
Vt 0 4. J({-aOL
to-ithe- congregation, but primarily the members
of the church--and told them what's coming and asked their
advice. In fact, it was pretty difficult for me to go.
We were a very close....actually, these people here became
as close or closer than my own blood brothers and sisters.
They were just...I was just...we were just part of the
family.s the people. And after--they didn't want us to
go, that was the truth--but after they talked about me,
prayed together, they said, "Well, it is the Lord's will,
we'll let you go." And that's the way it was.
I: Now, I understand that some like Clara Rolin had gone
over to Bible school in Mississippi a summer or two?
CRK 55A 47
W: Yes.
I: What were the conditions of that, or how did that
operate?
W: That was in the early stages that they helped in Bible
school. Willie Lee here, she helped, and Clara....I'm
not sure who all. We needed some help for teachers, and
of course,
the tirst year before we lived there. And then the first
year we lived there in a tent. We put up a tent. They
came over and helped us in the summer Bible school work
there.
I: Let me ask-you whether you as a person or your church
as a matter of doctrine had any objections to the
beginning of the Indian dancing and wearing feathers
and all those-kinds of things?
W: Oh, as a church, there would be an objection to this
kind of thing. We've taken a somewhat lenient view about
this, you know. As a church we would not promote dancing
of any kind, but I kind of take the view that their tribal
dance is a part of their culture, and to separate them
from that would be a pretty difficult thing. So we
haven't made that dA/ Ps-tC as far as church member-
ship is concerned. \ tj R,` .ta\\. dances.
CRK 55A 48
I: What about the kind of show dancing that some of the
younger ones started here in the Creek community?
W: Well, the Choctaws are doing that, too.
I: Well, just one last question and sort of a summary
statement. What would you say had been the biggest
kind of change that you've seen take place in the
community in the past twenty-three years?
W: Well, there's a lot of changes that have taken place.
When we came here, the majority of them lived in small
huts. There was a few of them had little better houses,
but the majority of them were very, very poor, Xmall
housing, very poor furnishings. And it was a gradual
process through the years. I think I would say that
this is one of the outstanding things. I come back here
A-o
aed-see all these new houses around here. It just
wasn't...it was nothing like that in those days.
Education, higher education. It:was very few of them
that were going to this when we first came here. They
did have their Indian school up to sixth grade, and
that's where most of them stopped. Some of them didn't
even go that far. They just dropped out. And now I see
them going on through. And I come back and what little
CRK 55A 49
boys that were in our Sunday school now are working for
Western Union, having good jobs putting in this telephone
work, and that was just an unheard-of thing. A few of
themmaybe,worked in town, but didn't have very good jobs
at that. I-f was mostly trying to make a living in pulp-
wood or a little bit farmland they had ia farm-lg- the
best they could. Mules and plows in them days.
I: Can you think of any house that's still standing today
that might be sort of an example of an average type
house, say, in 1950?
W: I have to think a little bit. Uh...
I: Say Sam and Thelma Lyons' house. Would that have been
about average in 1950?
W: Now, where do they live? I'm not sure...
I: They're the ones who live dwn the road just below the
hill, where Roberta And Eugene lived a long...?
W: Uh-huh, yeah. Yeah.
I: It's an older house...
W: Yeah, that'd be a pretty well example of what most of
them lived in those days.
I: That was average, it wasn't better than average?
W: No, I...I believe they're living in the house that Clay
and Alice McGhee had lived in. Now they were a little...
CRK 55A 50
that was a better house than some of them had.
I: Well you know, there's a little bitty house sort of
right neat door to that one.
W: Right, that was...a lot of them lived in those kind of
houses. Now a few of them had....now, Will McGhee, the
old couple, the parents of Mrs. Martin here, they had
a similar house, but I think they added some to it and
it really had some kind of strip shingle on the out-
side. It was a little bit above the average when I
came here. But the majority of them had very poor
housing.
I: Was there any difference in the housing between \2i-L4;4A
Fort Switch, and Hog Fort that you noticed?
W: Oh, I'm not quite sure. I'd say it'd be pretty general
all the way across. I think a few of them over there
had gotten a little bit ahead of here at that time.
I: o Fort Switch?
W: Yeah. Jim Presley, I think he had a little better house.
He was a pulpwood man that actually worked a crew of
men. I think he had gotten ahead a little bit more.
But they generally had the small, very small housing,
not very good shape. Oh, a few had been fixing up.
But they were poor people. There's no question about it.
CRK 55A 51
I: Let me ask you now just one last question. Before I
ask that specific question, is Brother
assigned full-time to work with these people now?
W: Well, it's not on a full-time basis. He is pastoring
the church, but he is limited in his WS cabinet, I
mean his camper business downtown where he's building
campers. And so he can not...he's not giving the time
that he would like to, I'm sure. And I know I would
like to see him put a whole lot more time. He does
not get into the homes. When I lived here it was a
regular practice. We were part of the community, we
visited in the homes in very close contact. He does
not have that contact.
I: Let me ask this last very general question. Now that
you've worked with the Choctaws, do you see any kind
of, in the most general sense, of similarity between
those people and the Creeks that somehow makes them
Indians in contrast to other people?
W: Well, there is some similarity. However, the Choctaw
people are much more primitive, hung on to their old
way of life where the Creeks have left that through
CRK 55A 52
that there were very poor people, and the problem of
strong drink is very prevalent with them over there
in Mississippi. There are certain things that are
similar. But there is....you look at the Creek Indians.
They're so much more advanced than the Choctaw, on
the average.
I: Are the Creek Indians more hospitable than the Choctaw,
W: Yes.
I: They are.
W: Yes. I mean, talking about that veryclose contact in
the community life here, we haven't had that over there.
Now, it's just beginning the last three years that they
are more open. Here, I lived here, you'd be amazed at
the many times I've been called on family problems. They
come share with me their problems. In one case they
asked me to come in and try to rectify some of the difficulties
they had betweejseveral families, you know. This kind
of thing. Over there, you didn't find anything out about
their family problems. They wouldn't shlre with me. It's
just the last three years now that this has happened.
I: With the Choctaws.
W: The Choctaw people. They- seemed to -take almost ten years...
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