<%BANNER%>
HIDE
 Copyright
 Interview


SPOHP UFCLASHist Grimes



DARK ITEM
Interview with Nancy Rackard (August 23, 1973)
CITATION SEARCH
Full Citation
STANDARD VIEW MARC VIEW
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007522/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Nancy Rackard (August 23, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: August 23, 1973
 Subjects
Spatial Coverage: Creek County (Fla.) -- History.
 Notes
Abstract: This interview is part of the 'Creek County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida.
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
Funding: Access to this item is restricted. Contact the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program for access.
 Record Information
Source Institution: UF Samuel Proctor Oral History Program
Holding Location: UF Samuel Proctor Oral History Program
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: CRK 47
System ID: UF00007522:00001

Table of Contents
    Copyright
        Copyright
    Interview
        Page 1
        Page 2
        Page 3
        Page 4
        Page 5
        Page 6
        Page 7
        Page 8
        Page 9
        Page 10
        Page 11
        Page 12
        Page 13
        Page 14
        Page 15
        Page 16
        Page 17
        Page 18
        Page 19
        Page 20
        Page 21
        Page 22
        Page 23
        Page 24
        Page 25
        Page 26
        Page 27
        Page 28
        Page 29
        Page 30
        Page 31
        Page 32
        Page 33
        Page 34
        Page 35
        Page 36
        Page 37
        Page 38
        Page 39
        Page 40
        Page 41
        Page 42
        Page 43
        Page 44
        Page 45
        Page 46
        Page 47
        Page 48
        Page 49
        Page 50
Full Text



COPYRIGHT NOTICE


This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
Florida.

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.

This oral history may be used for research,
instruction, and private study under the provisions
of Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of United States
Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section
107) which allows limited use of copyrighted
materials under certain conditions.
Fair use limts the amount of material that may be
used.

For all other permissions and requests, contact the
SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
















CRK 47A

Mrs. Nancy Rackard (R)
Atmore, Alabama

Interviewer: Paredes (I)
August 23, 1973

Typed by: P. F. Williams





I: The date of today is August 23, 1973, and I'm inter-

viewing Mrs. Nancy Rackard in her home near Atmore,

Alabama. I'll start out by just askingpa few questions

and maybe we can just get into a general conversation.

Perhaps you could just start out by telling me where

you were born and where you lived in your early life

as a young child.
M -o ro c/-
R: Well, I was borned in one-o4them Count'es which YWe,iiS)

C-__ up here I reckon about twenty miles, Uriah.

And I lived mostly around in there. I never have

been off weeres. you know, no distance. Well, I have

been to New Jersey. I got a son that lives up there

and I spent a while up there with them. But as I was

gonna tell you, all mostly I know about the Indians,

you see, was from my husband's side. And like it
I,
was with me, I was. .I didn't have any people on my

daddy's side a'tall and I never knew none of his

people a'tall. But he claimed, you know, not to have















CRK 47A 2






rA.
no Indian about him. And I mostly been raised, I

tell you, from the Boone side. You maybe you've

heard of them. They're pretty well-known Indians.

I: But your name was Percy before you were married?

Is that right?

R: Um-hmm [affirmative].

I: And your mother was the Indian. And she was a Boone,

or her mother was a Boone, or how'd that go?

R: Yeah. And that's kind of where I got my little bit

of Indian there. Now, my other sisters--and I have- L

two ?1rr< -C sisters and two brothers besides myself-- Lt

they didn't even have the Indian look, you know, about

them. I was the only one that had the dark hair and

the dark eyes and such as that, and like I said, I

can remember way back when all the Indians used to...

you know, they was cut off from all the other people,

all there was around in this settlement up there

around where Edgar lives. And they just wouldn't

let them go to school together on account of the Indian

part that was in them, you know. And my children

all showed their Indian. They all taken after their















CRK 47A 3






SCaf-
daddy, which he was full-blood Indian. He was created

from the Colberts. His, uh...Rackard was the name

but his mother was a Colbert1A When they/got them

a little school off, well, my children all went -there.

I'm the mother of nine children. Besides, I've had

three given to me. And I have raised them all up to

be grown and all married off. But this picture of

this grandson here on the mantel, well, he's in ser-

vice, but he's twenty-one.

I: How were the three given to you that you're talking

about?

R: Well, this was my grandson, and his father was...oh,

he was mean to my daughter. Married my daughter, and
WO'S
he was a Pugh. And hestayed drunk and fought--

would-fight her, he wouldn't fight a man but he

jumped on her and choked her and doinr 4'Y!a .

And she'd come home and slip off and go back to him.

She was in my house when the baby there was born.

And I told her she wasn't going to take the baby out,

but I did. I let her take him out, go back to him















CRK 47A 4







about three times. And she'd come back all beat up,

you know. She loved the man. And so I told her

then the last time she come--the baby was about three

months old--I told her, I says, "Well, I says, "you

can go when you get ready." But I said, "The baby

ain't going." I says, "I'm going to keep him."

And so when her husband come back for her and the

baby, I told him if he come in my house I'd just

bust every chair I had over his head before he'd

get the baby. I says, "You can take your wife and

go on if she's a mind to live with you, but you

ain't gonna get the baby." And so they went on,

but finally they separated and she left me with the

baby. That's how come me with him, when he was about

three months old. And I raised him then. He's going

on twenty-one now. He's the youngest one I've raised.

And then my son, he married into the Colbert family,

my baby son. And he married a young girl...come

around here and see me! And so after then, well,

he had to go to service and the baby was just about

nine weeks old. And after then she went out for a













CRK 47A 5







big time and she give me the baby when he was nine

weeks old and told me to keep him a while and she'd

be back after him. Well, she never did come back

after him and I raised him.

I: That was a Colbert girl ycun scy7 ,

R: Yes, sir. And I raised him, and another one, a girl

that was give to me. These grandchildren, they was

ours, both of them, and this girl, she wasDolly

Rolin who they Jived up Ae.C rhin 4.L-

Rolins out there around where lives. Well,

she was all deformed up and in'awful bad shape. She

couldn't walk and she couldn't talk,

baby, she birthed this baby. Well, I had a baby about

nine months old and I couldn't restAafter I heard

about it and after I went to see her, too. I was

always pretty crazy about young'uns and my husband

was, too. And I just kept on until he told me one

day, says, "If you think she'll give you the baby,

go out there and get it." Well, me and another lady,

one of my friends went out there and she finally

decided to let me have the baby until it got big














CRK 47A 6







enough to where it could eat. She was feeding it

from birth on a little cornbread and water, you

know, and made sugar tea. Well, she never did come

for the baby and so I raised her and she married.

She lives up here at Canoe. And that's how come

me with the three just give to me. I just taken

them out of pity, I reckon.

I: Was Dolly Rolin born that way or was she in an

accident or something?

R: ti Jhe was born that way, I think.

I: Who were her mother and daddy?

R: Ni Old lady Peggy Rolin was her mother. Now I don't

know nothing about her daddy.

I: I forgot to ask you, how old are you?

R: I'm eighty years old.

I: Could you talk a little bit about how it was that

you came to be living down here in Escambia County

in the time you were growing up?

R: Well, I don't know how come me to be there, but I

was just raised up mostly there.

I: You were raised in Escambia County?














CRK 47A 7







R: In Monroe County.

I: Monroe County.

R: ____________. IM 1 -cr c f

ti ce. I got a daughter that lives up there now. But

we just...how come us down here, we owned a place up

there and my husband, he died f cancer of the liver.

And we owned a big farm, and so he got to where he

was disabled to work and all of the children had married

off, you know. And he just come down here and bought

a little place to live the rest of his life. That's

how come us down here, I reckon.

I: Now, what I was talking about', how was it you moved

to Bell Creek? I understand that's where you lived

before...

R: Yes.

I: How was it that you came to move down there?

R: Well, me moved there on a big farm Mtr, DC<-- .

All the children then was at home, and the boys was

growing up, you know, and we just moved there on the

farm away from Uriah there when we was just...he was

just bltb1'C tuCUi LrQ And after the family













CRK 47A 8







got so big and everything he just decided he-wanted-

6e-wafted-to farm and that's how come us to move

down there. And he did, he farmed about a hundred

and something acres there for many years.

I: How did you meet your husband?

R: ,. Well, my older brother him to the house is all I

can tell you one time. And that's how I met him.

They both was pretty bad, you know, to drink. And

after he come l wd afu I '11 h there, my husband,

he wasn't drinking so much. My brother was pretty

full. And he got to coming around and so that's
*d, -'-(.
how we met. My people didn't like the Indians either.

They was kind of like these people up here around

McCullough.

I: Oh, really? c,

R: Oh, yeah. They didn't like him a'tall. Steve, don't

make him cry and hurt him, now!

I: So your people didn't like the Indians either.

R: No,5'They didn't like the Indians a'tall. And then

after my mother and them found out that...they kind

of believed we was falling in love with each other.

Well, they tried to keep him run off, you know, my













CRK 47A 9







husband, all the time. And which he did. He didn't

come around the house too much, but we would meet, you

know, at parties and things like that. And when we

married, well, I run away. I think they finally learned

to like him pretty good, but/iil..

I: Where'd you run away to?

R: Well, I was married on the top of Uriah Hill over there.

There's an old w'rr, ce i-C 4-irtC 5c A SC S t f sK, fOr

C1Win I7 ,' old man The'ke married

us.

I: When you first got married, did you go back over to the

Huxford area, or where did you...?

R: No, sir. I went on up to...well, it was up at McNeil's.

I don't know what town that is, but it wasn't but just

about twenty-five or thirty miles to where we went to

one of his brothers, you know.

I: Uh-huh.

R: We didn't stay there :too long before we WU8C c("o

:. ) i 3 ourselves.

We come back then, down around Uriah and down where

my people was at, because his mother was dead.- J

I: Was he from the Huxford area originally, your husband?













CRK 47A 10







R: Yes, sir.

I: Did y'all ever live in Huxford?

R: No, sir. We never did live right there in Huxford.

You know, Edgar's children goes to school out there

now, but we lived down in the settlement down there

where Edgar lives.

I: Before, you were talking about how around here in this

settlement they wouldn't let the Indian children go

to school with the others. Now, up in Monroe County

was that true or not?

R: Yes, that's true. They wouldn't let them go to school

with the other children.

I: In Monroe County?

R: Um-hmm [affirmative].

I: How about yourself? How;much education did you get?

R: I never got very much, I tell you. I went to about

fifth grade 'f fTiC n

I: In Uriah?

R: Um-hmm [affirmative]. And my children didn't get the

education they should have got, the kind I wanted them

to have. I had about two to make it to the tenth grade.














CRK 47A 11








But when those finished up there, you know, around

Bell Creek they call it, where Edgar lives...

I: Uh-huh. -t ,

R: Well, they had a little school over there and there

was just one teacher. When they finished that, well,

theywas supposed to go to another school, but to a

high school at McCullough. But they wasn't allowed pui

there, you see.
o I
I: J-I think I remember Edgar saying that after he got out

of school, that you and your husband moved back up to

Monroe County...

R: Yes.

I: ...and the younger ones finished there?

R: We went back up there butjthey never particularly-

finished. They all made it to about the tenth grade,

I think.

I: But they were able to go to school?

R: Yeah, they was able to go to school up there. But

like I told them, since this colored people business

has come in, I told them I was glad to see them have

to go now with something a little worse than the Indian

was. CIt just done me good to know they had to mix up














CRK 47A 12







with the colored people, *igh-t there around McCullough

especially, and Huxford.

I: Uh-huh. l(-L.'

R: Because them people was bitterly against it. They

purely said they'd tear their school down before they'd

allow Indians to come.

I: Well, you say your parents were that way, too. What-O'O

was the reasoning behind not liking the Indians that

way?

R: I just don't know, son. Never could get on to it. I

just...I know they told me that if I wanted to marry

a colored person to get one out of the nigger quarters

down there. That was before me and my husband run

away, you know, 1--
t4).d Yw saI'd yfos
I: Uh-huh.' hat's what they said to you whenhthey thought

you wanted to marry him.

R: Yeah, um-hmm.

I: They though of him just like a colored person.

R: Yeah, that's right. And that's the way most of the

people did, you know, where they couldn't go to school

together. They didn't think of them as Indians. They

thought of them as regular colored people.













CRK 47A 13







I: Besides not letting them go to school, were there

any other ways that years ago the Indians were badly

treated?

R: Well,,not that I can remember. Now, in churches and
K!/ c,,:s J'l"i'cdo-
thingsKthe Indians was allowed to have their own

church. They was treated, you know, kind of low

there.

I: Could they go to a white church if they wanted to?

R: Uh-uh. No, they...they had their own church.

I: What about going into restaurants and cafes, could

Indians do that?

R: Well, so far as I can remember they mixed up there.

But seems that they kind of had separate places for

the...you know, eating..4ftrc.

I: For the Indians?

R: Um-hmm [affirmative]..

I: How would they be marked as separate?

R: They'd just have tables for the ends) for the Indians,

kind of like people used to with tie regular colored

people, you know.

I: Was that true in Uriah as well as in Atmore?














CRK 47A 14







R: Well, they didn't never have noacafes or anything.

That's just a small little old place over there.

They have built up one there since we got out from

over-there but when I was growing upAthere wasn't

anything there but just kind of a...well, like it

was, there was niggertown down the railroad one

way and white people up the-other way.

I: Now, you're talking about the cafes having separate

tables for the Indians.

R: That's right.

I: You were talking about in Atmorevor 7

R: Here in Atmore and mostly everywhere rf ou know, a

town that was any size.

I: What about when an Indian had some...well, sayphe had

to go to court for something. How were the Indians

treated in court? Do you know?

R: No, sir. I don't know of cases such as that, now,

because I tell you, the Indian people to my notion

was always .-,jhI, va kind of person. I never

heard of many of them ever having to go to court.

They was mean, they'd fight.













CRK 47A 15







I: Yeah. I was thinking about, do you ever hear of any

Indians suing a white man or anything like that for...

for land or along thoseilines?

R: A No, sir. Now like this Indian money business out here,

well, I didn't sign up to start with because they said

I'd have to prove, you know, from my daddy's side. And

I told them itkwouldn't be no use to fool with it then,

because I T jIC (Crn trying to trace his

people down. I never knowed of him having any people.

I: Was that the rule, that you had to prove through your

daddy's side?

R: Um-hmm [affirmative]. That's what Mrs. __i___

told me.

I: It couldn't.be through your mother's side?

R: Uh-uh [negative].

I: Oh, that's the first I'd realized that.

R: Now,my children...well, Lois, our youngest daughter

that lives out there in that trailer, well she didn't

either. She never got anything because she just didn't

h.f Vc t n 14 she didn't. Because

she could have proved, you know, from her daddy's side

all right because they got the record out there of that,














CRK 47A 16







Colberts and Rackard generation. But like it was with

me, I never knowedmy father having no people. And I

couldn't do anything about proving my Indian a'tall.

I: Well, when you were a girl growing up, I take it that

you didn't grow up in an Indian settlement, did you?

R: No, sir. There wasn't too many Indians lived around

close to where we lived at.

I: Was when you moved to Bell Creek the first time you

lived in an Indian settlement? .^-S ... -

R: Yes, sir. That's about the biggest one I ever lived

in there. My oldest brother, he married one of the

Colberts. He married into the Indian generation, too.

And I had married into the Indian generation, and

the rest of my brothers...well, I didn't have but one

more brother, but he didn't and so, my other sisters

didn't. Just me and my oldest brother.was the only

ones that had married into the Indian generation.

I: Tell me, what was Bell Creek like when you first

moved there? If you can remember back, what were

your first impressions when you moved to Bell Creek?

R: Well, all the people that lived around there was Indians,














CRK 47A 17







pretty near every one of them. And the fellow we

rented, that's where we moved when we rented our

big farm, and he lived out there at McCullough,

Mr. Joe Davis. But he was mighty good to us all.

He was just as kind as he could be, and to my hus-

band and all the children, too. That's the first

I remember, but it was the Gibson generation then

mostly lived in that settlement. Old man Dave

Gibson and...oh, there was several. About three

or four of the Gibsons lived there, and, they was

all Indians. Old man Sid Gibson, now, his bunch

of children they was, you know, showed their Indian

real good. Therewas a good many of them that was

pretty dark.

I: Were there any of those real old ones when you first

moved there that could still speak the Indian

language?

R: No, sir. I don't think there was. I have never been

in contact with but one generation that spoke that

'Ie- Indian language, and that was up there at Ware Ts aS-

we was talking about lived at Uriah. there was














CRK 47A 18








one man and his sister. They was pretty old, both

of them, but they was yet living together and they

had a little hut. I reckon it was about half a mile

from where we lived. But they was. .I'm telling

you, they was real...they was a real old...I don't

know what kind they was, but you couldn't under-

stand them whatever they said.

I: What were their names?

R: Simpsons. It was Norman Simpson and Alice Simpson,

4'Tat was their names.

I: And that's the only two you ever knew of?

R: That's the only two, you know, that...what we did a
-P"I-
them days called full-blooded Indians. I guess they

was just a different denomination. Must have been,

because they couldn't talk a'tall. But we used...

treated them good and everybody around there treated

them all right as far as visiting, you know. They'd

come to see us a lot of times "Al-

I: Your parents, you mean?

R: Me and my husband.

I: Oh, I see.

R: Yeah, it was after I married when I got in contact













CRK 47A 19







with them. Now, they're buried over there I think

at the Copper'Spring graveyard, both of them. They

both passed away. But they just had their little

hut, well, it was kind of back down behind the grave-

yard and next to the edge of the swamp.

I: Could they speak English, too?

R: No, sir. They couldn't speak English much.

I: Buty-ou-iould visit with them.

R: Yes, sir.

I: Uh-huh.. tLW)s 4: .

R: Because they would help us a lot on the farm, you

know. Theyidid work, both of them.

I: Did they dress any differently than other folks

around?

R: Oh, yeah. They wore the long dresses, you know, the

lady did. And the old man, he just wore old common things

like 6ld O/Ci-Pr.(, or something like that.

But the woman, she dressed altogether different.

I: there was just the two of them? There weren't any

children or anything?

R: No, sir. Just the brother and sister. All of the

other people...I don't know how they come there or














CRK 47A 20







nothing else, how come them to get in that part of

the country. But I think their people had all died

or had got killed in some war or something or other,

and they just drifted in there.

I: About what year was it when you moved to Bell Creek?

R: I don't know.

I: About how old were you?

R: I imagine I was about forty-something when I went over

to Bell Creek, because I don't think we had but just

two children when we moved there. And we lived

there, the rest of my children all except one, I

think, was born there.

I: How old were you when you were married?

R: About sixteen.

I: Where'd you live for all those...you lived around

Uriah for all those years between the time you were

first married and you moved to Bell Creek.

R: Around Uriah and around...well, we lived up there

at Huxford a while. Not right there in the little

town but off from it on Neal McGhee's place.

I: Uh-huh.














CRK 47A 21







R: We lived up there I reckon some three or four years

before btler-- riL -aQi- our family began

to grow, you know, that's when we began to get-on

big farms.

I: Pardon me. Well, what church did you go to as a -6S c&

child and after you got married and onf through?

R: Baptist mostly all the time, yes, sir.

I: And there was a Baptist church at Bell Creek, is

that correct?

R: Yes, sir. We had our own church just like we had our

own school.

I: -''"tWho was your pastor?

R: I don't remember thathfellow's name. He was a pretty
-T
old fellow. But Ifjust sure don't remember his name.

I: Did he live in Bell Creek?

R: No, sir. He didn't live there. He lived...oh, it

was about thirty miles. I don't know what the name

of the place was he lived at. I know me and my hus-

band had carried him home. He didn't have no way

of traveling, you know, and we'd go get him and

carry him-back home.














CRK 47A 22







I: Was he Indian?

R: Well, he showed Indian pretty well, now. I don't

know whether he claimed it or not but anyway, he

was dark and I'm pretty well sure he had Indian

blood there, too.

I: Tell me about what your church was like at Bell:

Creek back in those days. How was it run and what

did it meet in and all those things?

R: Well, it was run in the proper way. My husband,

he was deacon of the church and we had a many, you

know, as we've got now and every Indian always

attended regular. They was all mighty interested

in church and things them days. And my husband, he

had one sister that lived there and she had two or

three children. There was a pretty good bunch of

us all in there together, you know. But as far as

remembering back,ioh, such as this here where the

Indian lives in these little...I don't know what

you call them. Little huts or something or other.

I: Uh-huh.

R: I never was knowing nothing like that because I didn't













CRK 47A 23







never do no traveling, you know.

I: Yeah.

R: But...

I: Well, I'm interested in the way it really was. If 4-'

iSthat's the way it was, that's the way it was.

R: Yeah.

I: di do you remember when the Holiness religion first

started coming in to Bell Creek?

R: Yes, sir. I can remember that.

I: Tell me about it. -t'i i4(l

R: It was kind of a, well, a surprising thing, I tell

you, when they first started in there. The people- "

didn't know nothing about which I don't think very

many of them knowed anything about it. They wouldn't

hardly go because they said they'd hoodoo you, you

know., Put spells on you and things like that. I

can remember when they was running a regular revival

up there, and we'd drive up out there in an old

wagon, mule wagon, you know, and we'd set way off

away from the arbor like they had up here Sunday.

The church people I reckon would wash their hand-

kerchiefs, you know, and they'd be hanging on the














CRK 47A 24







arbor bushes.

I: Uh-huh.

R Well, they'd tell us, you know, that that there. .if

you went under that handkerchief you'd have a spell

of some kind. That's what made them shout and do



I: Uh-huh.

R: Well, we was ignorant to it. We didn't know no better.

We wouldn't go under there. And I got a...well, that's

my baby son. Now, I reckon he's up--would be, he got

killed in'service--but he would be up about in his

fifties. Well, he was a pretty small boy at that time,

and Lord, you just couldn't get him nowhere around that

arbor. But before he was killed he was rm6 '

I: Uh-huh. Well, who would go to the services at first?

Was it Indians going to those Holiness services?

R: Yes, sir.
OVJ-r -i CC$-- C
I: Now, where were they coming from?

R: They'd be coming from several different places. They'd

drive old oxens and wagons, you know, and things like

that up there.














CRK 47A 25







I: But those weren't afraid of it.

R: No, they wa n't afraid of it. But we, I reckon,

was them uncivilized kind to that kind of church

because we'd always been to the Baptist church.

And so we didn't understand this shouting and such

as that. And now I've got one's a preacher in it.

I: Well, there isn't any Baptist church out there any

more. I realize there's no people living at Bell

Creek. What happened to the Baptist church at

Bell Creek?

R: I don't know, sir. It just all went down there.

The Gibson generation, they was mostly the build-

up of that little place there, and old man Dave

Gibson, he died. And then his folks, they moved down

here about )CtI j,J Hill I think it was. And

from that they had two or three children married and

lived around there and they all left out. And then

we left out and we had about the biggest bunch, you

know, that there was around there. And just the old

people just moved off and everything just went down.

The houses all just rotted down and everything.














CRK 47A 26







I: Now, the school was held in the same building as the

church?

R: That's right. Yes, sir. Yes, sir, the church and...

I: What happened to that building?

R: -- That's what I don't know. I hadn't been in there in

several years. It might be a'standing as well as I

can remember, but I don't think it is. I think

it was made of lumber and I know mostly it's rotting

down by now.

I: Was there anything in particular that you think

changed people's minds about Holiness, that got them

finally to come....... ..N. OF.. O .F.0. J..........



R: My husband, he never did, to say believe in it. He

wasn'tAscared to go, had got to where he wasn't scared
wasf-
to go around when it was -here, but he died not believing

in it much. But we had a arbor just across the branch

from where we lived and the younger generation of the

children, they got to going over there, you know, and

they go on under. iWe'd tell them not to, but they'd

go on under. And finally my baby son, he went to the

altar one night. And seemed like it changed him a little













CRK 47A 27







bit, you know. And heAbegged us to come on and go,

come on and go, and we wouldn't hardly ever go. Some-

times we'd go--pretty close, you know. But we had...
k>_ lvrn5
well, he wasnext to the baby son at that time, but

he was somewhere about fifteen I reckon, and we had

the younger boy who was about seven years old, and

he passed away. And first one then another told us

that the Lord was trying to warn us, you know, this

way and that way about the church and things. We

finally got to going, then we didn't 'j 'We had one

daughter was in pretty bad shape and we just go to

where we'd go a little closer until we got under the

arbor. Of course, we wouldn't go to the front, you

know. We'd sit on the back. And I reckon that's

kind of what broke us from it, and I don't think there

was anybody else quite as bad as we was. I don't

know, I jut had so many children till I didn't want

nothing to happen, you know, such as spells and

things like that. EL 5 _

I: Well, how come the Holiness came in there in the

first place? Do you know?

R: I just don't know how come them.to get inA I'll tell














CRK 47A 28







you the truth, I don't know. They got in there some-

how or another and got started preaching, and there

was a pretty good supply of Indians around at that time

at V CS out around Poarch and all around, you

know. I don't know, some of them said they was sent in

there because the Indian people was weak-minded and they

thought they could get them in to the church easier.

But I don't think that was true. I think the Indians

had more sense that a lot of them thought they did.

But as far as knowing just how come them to get started

in there, I don't know.

I: Do you remember about how long ago that was when the

Holiness started?

R: Oh, I imagine it's been fifty years or longer when it

first begin in there.

I: Now, this arbor you been talking about was right at Bell

Creek?

R: It was just across the little old run over Bell Creek

there, just on a hill kind of. Yes,.sir. It was

right there at Bell Creek.

I: Was it near the Baptist church?














CRK 47A 29







R: No, sir. Well, it wasn't but about two miles, I

imagine, from the Baptists.

I: Do you remember an arbor that was down near the

railroad tracks in Poarch?

R: Yes, sir. It seems to me like I can remember that

arbor a little bit. But now, I never did go down

there:, none much.

I: Was it before or after the one at Bell Creek?

R: It was after, I think. Right after the one at Bell

Creek. They began to'build them up pretty much

around there, you know.

I: Would the Indians help build the arbors or what?

R: Yes, sir. They helped build the arbors.

I: That very first one they helped build, too?

R: Um-hmm [affirmative].

I: Who was the Holiness preacher at Bell Creekthat

first one. Do you remember his name?

R: (Raymond Coon, I believe we called him. He was a big

old fellow. I think it was Raymond Coon) was the pastor

of that one they had right there at Bell Creek.

I: Did they ever build actually have a church building/













CRK 47A 30







^JI Holiness church at Bell Creek?

R: No, sir.

I: Was their first building the one over at Hog For2

Was that their first church building?

R: Yes, sir. I think it was. The first one was over

there. And then Edgar and them put up one down

there where...well, they put up two. One in there

next to the graveyard andAthey moved it out there

on the -rS _-

I: Uh-huh. Now, you spoke of people afraid it was hoodoo

and putting spells on...would put spells on you. Was

there a lot of that kind of belief around back in those

days?

R: Yes, sir. There was, of that hoodoo business.

I: Tell me exactly what the belief was.

R: Well, they just believed that it was true because my

sister-in-law, my husband's sister, well/she died

pretty young, you know. She had two children. But

there was on old colored man, the one that started

it and an old colored lady. The lady, Emma Johnson

I believe her name was. They said it was true, and, 'i

my sister in-law, she taken sick and she didn't live
AI














CRK 47A 31







no time. She died, and this, you know, these people

believed that that was hoodoo and they said it was

was a spell put on her. That's the reason why I

said that I didn't i A them days--I go to the Holiness

church a good bit now myself--but -1 them days is the

reason why I was scared. I didn't know nothing about

what was going on there. I know they cut up, you

know. I reckon we realize now anybody'll cut up when

the power of the Lord gets on them.

I: Um-hmm.

R: But them days we didn't realize that.

I: The Baptists didn't believe in shouting or...?

R: No, sir.

I: No shouting at all?

R: No shouting, no testifying in the Baptist church.

I: Well, that old colored couple that said your sister-in-

law had a spell put on her, did they say who did it to

her? Did they go that far?
No -
R: -Wel, sir, they didn't say but I think since I've learned
A
a little bit more about it after it happened and every-

thing, I think they was just mostly scaring people up.













CRK 47A 32







BecauseAthey'd always go maybe when one died that way,

you know, and they'd dig up something near about the

house. It had maybe a lock or two of hair in it, and

maybe a little old bag of dust of some kind. And they'd

say that's what they hoodoo'd them with.

I: These colored people said that.

R: Uh-huh [affirmative].

I: Where did they live?

R: 6 i, they did live out there at McCullough butithey're both

dead now. They weke old then, pretty old.

I: Well, how did they get to know the Indians that they

were telling you this?

R: U" they just got to coming down in there when things like

that would happen around Bell Creek. And finally, a

good many of them would get the old lady to come do

work for them, you know, such as patching clothes and

ironing, things like that. And they just got acquainted

that-a-way. And it was old man Scott Johnson, I believe,

and the old lady was named Emma Johnson. And finally she
Qlf
hal ome to be a midwife and there was a lot of the women

used her down there for that. But I don't know, I...













CRK 47A 33







I: Howpdid your sister-in-law die AWas there something

unusual about her death?

R: Well, no, sir. There wasn't nothing. She was sick

maybe for about a week and she just died.

I: Was she old...What about her death was it that made this

old Johnson couple say it was hoodoo?

R:3J-fhey just said that's what it was, because/when she taken,

she taken to where she couldn't hardly talk, you know.

Which I believe nowadays...in them days there wasn't Ma

strokes and such as that and things, and I believe she

just had a stroke myself.

,I , did you know of any Indians that claimed or the

other people claimed timk w how to do hoodoo at that

time?

R: No, sir. Not around tk -- hAl -AL/ii

I: It was strictly something the colored people talked about.

R: Yes. A lot of times, you know, people'd hang out clothes

and let them stay all night, and they'd clain that you
0kh
better look them over. /Old people thenjand I do yet,

wear aprons a lot. If you ever went to take your clothes

in and your apron string had a knot in it or something,













CRK 47A 34







not to take it in. They claimed that, you know, that

somebody had fixed it for you.

I: Uh-huh.

R: But)I never did...well I believed in it a little bit

then.A They old it so real, you know. Now I wouldn't

believe in no such as that.

I: Did any of the old, old Indians have any tales and

stories they used to like to tell?

R: No, sir. Not that I can remember. Like I said, 'that

there's about the most, you know, the biggest bunch of

Indians that I lived around was around Bell Creek.

Down in about...

I: One subject I've been interested in because it's something

that's changed so much, and that's back years agobhow

people took care of a person that had died. Would you

tell me about how they used to do that?

R: They used to, you know, just take and wash them themselves

and have a cooling board, they'd lay them out on that

cooling, ..you know, dress them themselves and lay them

out on the cooling board or the t\61 ( l 5'

IlA0 ( Id There wasn't none of this embalming













CRK 47A 35







orAfuneral homes or things like that, and mostly they

made their own caskets. My husband has helped to make

a good many for grown people that way.

I: Was there any particular person that was usually...people
6--
would get to do the washing-in Bell Creek?

R: No, sir. There wasn't no certain ones. Just the neighbors

would come together.

I: Did they...at Bell Creek back in those days, did they

sit up with the dead?

R: Oh, yes,sir. They'd sit up.

I: Would that be in the house or at church?

R: In the house. They never did put none in the church.
)o 31- (- 11hn^ iW LAI
I: How many nights-d4d they stay up with the dead?

R: Well, about two or three nights would be as long as they

ever kept one out, you know. And they. when they were

buried, they wasn't buried in these vaults and things

like that, they'd just go did the grave to the graveyard,

you know.

I: Which graveyard did they use at Bell Creek?

R: Well, they mostly used the...they got one at Perdido,

they called it. And I reckon it's about three or four

miles. It's out on the other highway going out to Perdido.














CRK 47A 36







They had a graveyard out there that's where they mostly

buried them all.

I: Was that an all-Indian graveyard?

R: Yes, sir.

I: Was it at Perdido or 4e4dpeddo?

R: It was Perdido.

I: Perdido.

R: fHedepeidido.

I: Uh-huh.

R: That's what they called it. It was...

I: Is that the one that's over there behind the Judson

Baptist Church?

R: That's right.

I: Yeah.

R: Old-timey old graveyard, \44 fC C .

I: When somebody died, what was the funeral like back in

those days?
,,i
R: Well, it was pretty well comparing to now. The.Baptist

preacher, he generally always preached the funeral.

There'd always /M somebody *) go get him, you know--like

I told you, he had-no way of traveling. But when they

died there around Bell Creek, well, he was the fellow

that they'd go get to preach the funeral.














CRK 47A 37







I: Someone told me that they thought years ago that some-

times they might, or usually they would...they might

bury somebody and it might be several weeks before they

actually preached the funeral. Is that true?

R: Well, sometimes they'd do that. But it wasn't very

often. They'd be...they would mostly preach the funeral

when they were put away.

I: the times that that did happen, why did they do that?

Why did they wait until later to preach the funeral?

R: I don't know, sir, why it be their ideas to wait that

way. Now, a lot of people would say that the people

had been opened at the graveyard, you know, and they

would be turned over in their casket.

I: Uh-huh.

R: But...well, I knowed of one woman out there. She wasn't

an Indian woman but she lived right this side of...well,

she lived down there where ( hins vc C-r C -- ,

lives. That's where they lived, they was Parkers, I

believe.

I: Um-hmm.

R: (Emmonsjust lived on this side of thm1, and his wife died.













CRK 47A 38







And they wouldn't preach her funeral until maybe for

a week or two. And they opened her grave and she had

turned over and put her arm under her head.

I: Why'd they open her grave?

R: Opened her at the grave before they buried her...

I: Oh, oh, I see.

R: ...which they generally do. And they'd keep them out

that way and wait...when they'd wait a little over two

or three days to see, you know, if they were in a trance,

maybe, or something or another +e4 i'. -- .

I: But all the time they were waiting would the casket be

in the ground or at home or what?

R: No, sir. They'd mostly be making one A ,_____ ,

because they made them Me6 9f,( Al/ 1i4 ,

and a grown person would generally take a little longer

than...they'd have to line them up and things.

I: How did the Indian folks out there get along with the

Parkers and the Emmonses?

R: They all got along seem like mighty well. Now, the

Emmonses, they didn't have too much, you know, to do

with them, but the Parkers, they seemed to like the














CRK 47A 39







Indians pretty good.

I: Did any of the Indians work for the Parkers?

R: Yes, sir.

I: On what basis?

R: ^ _Just ona farm basis, you know, such as...

I: Working on shares?

R: Um-hmm [affirmative].

^ D6 you remember over at Bell Creek--I know it was true

at the other places--did people over there have the custom

of a newborn baby walking..somebody walking the baby

around the house?

R: Oh, yeah. tI k I.

I: Tell me about in Bell Creek, when would they do that?

All about that.

R:T' WCell, they hardly ever carried one out until it was

nine days old. But that was the first thing they would

do there; Had the custom of the one,they wanted their

baby to take after. They wouldAget them to carry it around

the house, you know. Now I reckon I've yet got that

custom myself.

I: Do you?

." Of the grandchildren, you know.

I: Oh.














CRK 47A 40







R: The little fat one that come in here and sit down a few

minutes, you know, and another one come after him. I
'ijejt -uy^ -
taken him and..that's my grandson's child, and they only

have three little boys. But they come from the hospital,

well, I taken them out of the car and went around the

house with them. His mother asked what was that about?

Well, she's not got no Indian in her* I told her, I

says, "Well, I want you to have your boy a take after

"me." I says, 6 0 c- of the rest of them

to take after." CLa^5i 4

I: How many times do you go around the house?

R: Just one time.

I: Now, I've only heard it from a couple of people, but

some families I've heard the mother would go around,

too, along with whoever was carrying the baby. You

ever hear of that?

R: No, sir. I haven't. I've carried a good many of them

around the house, but...

I: Would you usually go by yourself?

R: Yes, sir.

I: When you carry a baby like that, do you talk to the baby

or say anything to it while you're walking around?













CRK 47A 41







R: O ,yes, sir. You talk to it.

I: Well, what kinds of things would you say to he baby

when you take him around the house?

R: Wellli don't know of a stranger now. I've never taken

just a regular strange baby. I'm- always some kind of

relation.

I: Yeah, yeah.

R: But I'd always tell them)You must grow up and be like

Grandma, or something like that, aunt or something, you

know. "Be a good little fellow. Don't never be mean

and get into things," and things like that. And that

there one that was in here a while ago, well, he's

growed up different from the other two boys, sure enough.
e's A's--
He's pretty mean, but seems like he's got such a head on

him, you know. He'll mind you good and everything.

I: Was that a custom that was done in your family when you

were a girl with your mother and daddy?

R: No, sir. I never knowed of them doing that. Just after

we was married and I got to knowing the Indians pretty

good. Of course, I didn't know qijr rt If

@44'1C things like that. Like I said, I didn't














CRK 47A 42







know too much about the Indians, you know, till after I

married one. And my husband, he was raised up as a

walker. His mother died when he was pretty small. He

had one brother smaller than he was. He had to do the

work and everything and take care of his baby brother.

I: When you came to the...well, when you went over to the

Neal McGhee place,A came to Bell Creek, did you at the

time think the Indians lived any differently or did

things and differently that the people you were used

to as a girl?

R: No, sir. What of them I had seen and my growing up

to be when I was married...I never.was around none of

them much. I had one uncle that was an Indian, had

married into the family. His wife and my mother was

sisters, and I don't know, I just never could get used

to him. He was pretty full of Indian, you know, and

talked coarse and things. Kind of talked a little

different from us. Of course, he didn't talk like them

did that I was talking about a while ago, but...

I: Yeah, iight.

R: ...he talked different and IAnever was brave around














CRK 47A 43







him, seemed like. I was scared of him or something.

I: What was different about his talk? Remember any par-

ticular words?
-h
R: He just hadCP7no, sir, just coarse voice, and seemed

like he was alway3crabbag or something or another.

I: Well, besides carrying the baby around the house, were

there any other of those Indian rules that you learned

after you married into the Indians?

R: No, sir. There wasn't anything else that I can remembers

now.

I: Did you ever know much about weeds and things you get

out of the woods for medicine?

R: Yes, sir. A good bit, you know, for babies and such as

tht which doctors says now diabetes don't have kl VS,

but we used a lot out of the woods,

such as...people called it yellowroot and fever grass

and yellow tops. Yellow tops was awful good for fever.

And this yellowroot was good for a good many things.

I: And fever grass was for fever?

R: Yes,sir. Fever grass was good for the fever, too. And

fever grass was pretty good v,-rc efi medicine.
~ I ,i













CRK 47A 44







I: Any others you can think of?

R: No, sir.

I: Do you remember,did people in Bell Creek put anything

around baby's necks to keep them from having trouble/

teeth'o3

R: Yes, sir.

I: What did they use?

R: They used...you call it Jerusalem root.

I: Jerusalem root?

R: Um-hmm, yes, sir. And they used a little 6t tcS;.ef d- O
A'
gum in a rag to put it around their necks, you know, to

keep them from catching colds from other people and things

like that.
^IhCW Jlcro -
I: How would they put theAJerusalem root around their...?

R: They'd string it with a needle. Cut it in little rocks

like that, you know, and string it on a thread.

I: How many of them would they use?

R: They would use about twelve or thirteen of them. Pretty

good string of beads, you know.

I: MW twas that and the different weeds you were telling me about,

was that something that white people used, too?














CRK 47A 45







R: No, sir. I never did know of no white people using it.

I: What about yellowroot? Did you ever know of any white

people using yellowroot?

R: No, sir.

I: None of those things?

R: Uh-uh [negative]. No, there was a white family from, I '

out there close to McCullough from where we lived. Well,

it was her daddy's farm we was on. She was married, and

her baby had the tirsj And she came down wanting to know

if I knew anything that she could do for it, you know.

And I told her, yes, ma'am, 4o get us some yellowroot

and just boil it down pretty low and then take us a

little drop or two of honey and put in there and sweeten

it, you know, and take a clean rag and wipe the baby's

tongue off with it. And she did that, she tried it

and it cured the baby's mouth. I told her I had seen

it used a lot of times and I had used it, too, for my

children when they was growing up.

I: What about the colored people? Do you know whether

they had the custom of carrying 'a baby around the

house or not?













CRK 47A 46







R: No, sir. I don't know.

I: How about putting Jerusalem root around babies' necks,

did they have that? Do you know?

R: I sure don't, but I think they used the 2sci'-bf c u t 1'"t

I have seen it around colored babies, but I never have sCen

the Jerusalem root there.

I: Did you know Calvin McGhee very well?

R: No, sir. I didn't know him too well. I've seen him

several times, but just personally knowing him, I didn't.

I reckon that's one reason we didn't fool much with 1's 4

signing up for this Indian money, you know, to start

with. I figured it was just taking so long, which, A,

my husband, he signed us all up way back when they

began with the thing. Just fifty cents a head, you

know, to sign them up. But from that it got higher

and higherand -taken more money, you know. More money

every time you go, more money. We just decided, well,

there just wasn't anything to it. They're just after

what money they could get out of the Indians. My husband,

he just quit fooling with it. Of course, Calvin got

the treaty of my family, I reckon. He said he had it













CRK 47A 47







on the Colbert side, you know.

I: Uh-huh. But you never got any of theIndian money.

R: No, sir. Me, nor my daughter that lives here didn't

get any either. I got a daughter that lives in

Pensacola. Her and her children got it because she

married a McGhee. A lJ-

I: Who is that?

R: tr ntcel_ married John Lee McGhee. That

was old lady Ida McGhee's. Her and her children, they

got it. And my son that lives in New Jersey, they didn't
ep cr-rs-ep He-
get any either, became he married a white woman.l It

wouldn't have been much trouble, I reckon, for him to

have traced his back, you know, but he didn't have but

about six children and there was about three of them

I think taken after their daddy and the others after

mother. Blond-headed, you know, and blue-eyed.
k)r 4Cr -
I: ; o change the subject, were there ever any Rolins that

lived at Bell Creek?

R: Oh, es.

I: Who were some of the Rolins that lived at Bell Creek?

R: There was Jim Rolin and Jesse Rolin and there was several













CRK 47A 48







of the Rolins. Old man Bill Rolin, and...I don't

remember. There was several families of Rolins down

there. There was till they died out mostly.

I: How about up in the Huxford area? Were there any Rolins

that lived up in there?

R: No, sir. Nowheres aroundjl don't think, Huxford.

I: Say over around what they called the Colbert Settlement

or Neal McGhee place, were there any Rolins living

around there?

R: Not at the time we was up there, now. Old man Neal

McGhee, he was an Indian, too. He married in the

Woods family, I believe -hje r.tIf.-7 TiCi buT

"do, c I i the L clain to 4a g any Indian.

I:6 ht .... .ut raising your children! How did you feel

since you had grown up in a county and you moved back

to a county where the Indian children could go to school?

How did you feel about your children being turned away

from school?

R: Well, I didn't feel too bad about it. My husband, he

raised a good bit of sand, but I didn't think too much













CRK 47A 49







about it. They seemed to have a pretty good school

over there, and the teachers was all good.

I: \ What kind of sand did your husband raise? What'd he

do?

R: He just went out there around McCullough's, I think,

and told them what he thought about it. He didn't

think it was right for them to do it. But-I don't

think it done no good, but now the Indians is going

to McCullough,or going to Huxford school. I don't

know whether there's any at McCullough or not.

I reckon there is.

I: And there's some in Atmore, too.

R: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of Indians goes here in

Atmore. INiggers, too.
.'t
I: When you were raising your children, did you ever say

much to them about the fact that they were Indians?

R: No, sir. I never did bring it up because I felt like

they knew they was Indians. And they had the Indians

ways, being easy to get mad, you know, fighting.

I: That's an Indian way, huh? ftc(CeSj

R: Yeah.d thtC IenS

I: I heard they used to have frolics and things years ago














CRK 47A 50







where they'd really have some big fights. Were you

ever in on any of that?

R: Oh, yes.

I: Would they have frolics in Bell Creek?

R: No, sir. I don't think I went to any there. Over there

at Uriah, Monroe County...





--END OF TAPE--