Title: Interview with Mrs. Lolice Rogers (July 15, 1973)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007515/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Mrs. Lolice Rogers (July 15, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: July 15, 1973
Spatial Coverage: Creek County (Fla.) -- History.
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007515
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Creek County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: CRK 40

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DATE: JULY, 15, 1973

P: This is July the .fifteenth, and I'm interviewing Mrs.......?
S: Lolice Rogers.
I: Lolice....
S: I'm Lolice Snowden Rogers. My father was an Englisman. His father came
over from England, but my father married a Creek Indian woman. My mother
was a squaw, which we're proud to have and know that we are...and do
have the blood of the first American flowing through our veins. Uh, I
I: __ could you say where you were born?
S: I was born and reared in Covington County, Andalusia, Alabama. Which we
all know, just a few miles down uh...south of uh...Montgomery, Alabama,
which was Creek country all through there. Was taught, and reared, and
to know that we were...did have Creek in us as our mother was Creek.
Respected it and loved it, and uh...I...I will say a little bit about
my mother's uh...life. Uh, she was married before she was married to
my father...uh, to Columbus Ira Crockett. And I have some Crockett
half-brothers and sisters. Uh, she traveled all through the west, was
at all the Creek Indian stomp dances when she was around twenty-four
k ____________________



S: tWand five years old. And I have a little brother, half-brother,

buried at Hastings, Oklahoma.

I: Excuse me, about what-year. was this?

S: 1901.

-I: About when she was twenty-five?

S: Yes...uh huh. She...yes, uhhuh...uh huh. And my mother lived to a ripe

old age... become blind before she-passed away however. I was her baby,

child, she lived with my Lusband and I in Pensacola, Florida for eleven

years before she did pass. So uh...after she went uh...traveled all through

-the western country, and waA with the Creeks and different tribes of

Indians, she made her way back to her home ,here she was born, in

Conec'4bCounty, Alabama, up on S3pulga River. Then, as I say, she met

and married my father, Charles W. Snowden.

I: Could I ask you a question?

S: Yes.

I: Uh...did your mother's ancestors, did they get an allotment during the

removal period...or how was it they happened to be able to stay in


S: Well...that I...I don't know exactly how to answer that. They must

have, undoubtedly. Because uh...uh she...she did stay in Alabama,

and she knew all the while that she was a Creek-Indian. We are...we

are qualified all we children, we had no trouble with the documents

that we carried in. It was plain, and...and uh, we did uh, qualify.




S: So we...we do love our Indian blood, and I hope everybody that has a drop

of any kind, Chickasaw, Seminole, or whatever you have, be proud you are

part of the first American.

I: Could you to uh, set the time period...I know it's not polite to ask a lady

her age, but just say the age you were born?

S: Oh...I don't mind. Yes, I was born in 1913. The twenty-ninth day of this

month, I'll be sixty years old. My mother was ninety when she passed

away, in '65.

I: Can you recall at all, from listening to your mother talk, as to how

she made contact with Creek Indians in Oklahoma, and how she uh...uh...got

to know about stomp dances and things out there?

S: Yes I can. See, she was married to a frontJr man, her Columbus Ira

Crockett. He made all of the Indian:"to dos", and big powwows, and my mother

was thrown right in and among each'and every one, and she did have many

friends, and was recognized as Creek with the Creeks.

"1: Did your mother speak any of the Muscogee language?

S: Some, she did. Yes she did.

I: Can you remember any of the words?

S: Not really, uh we...you know how it is with an Englis father and all.

Uh, I really am telling the truth. I;..I did not.

I: From your mother...uh...did she ever talk to you about old Creek uh,

ways, or about Creek history, the traditions that had come down through her

family? Can you remember any of those? Could you talk about those please?




S: Yes I can. Of course her...her father, uh...she was almost reared to be a
0" e i
Creek Indian, and of course I can. tF, Sfpulga running out of Conecuh uh,

County...and...and Covington...all in there. Uh, they had their, uh,

their cookouts, and their...uh, they would roast their meat...and...and

they lived rough. My mother was uh...uh...among nine children. They were

poor...very poor. And uh, how well I do remember the...the obstacles, and

the many hardships that she went through as being a Creek Indian.

I: What...specifically, what were some of those hardships?

S: Well now to...uh...uh...the hardships that she had, well, she wouldn't

call it hardships really, but she didn't have what the neighboring

children had...the American children. She didn't have the shoes and

things, and she used to tell us, her hair was so course and long and

black, that uh, the rest of the girls, American girls would curl their hair,

and she would try, but there would neverrany curl stay in her hair.

I...I remember that very distinctly. And uh...uh, of course they uh...they

knew how, my grandfather was a great hunter, and back in those days it

was still wild here. And he...she said they always had plenty of wild

food to eat, and uh, maybe uh, corn...which they survived on good, but we

children thought it was an awful thing that our mother didn't have any

more advantage than she had. And she did not get to have very much


I: Did your mother make sofkee?

S: Yes! Oh yes, she would...she did...that's right, and we would have that,

uh...when we would be sick, and sort of ailing. Uh, she would make this

sofkee out of uh...uh corn meal. The way my mother made it, she'd make




S: oAjit out of corn meal...uh, put it in the boiler, and then she would

uh...uh, if it was hickory nut time, she would beat up the goodies of

the hickory nut, and uh, uh, throw right over in there, and put some

milk in it. Well that was nourishing man...I tell you...it was...it was


I: Can you recall her ever...uh ever seeing her, or ever hearing her

talking about in former times, having beat up her own corn meal at all,

uh, ground up her own meal?

S: Uh, her father did...yes. Yes they would, they'd let the corn dry, and

then they would beat it, and uh...and so they could have the hoe-cake.

The...they called it the hoecake. In a big round...some kind of a,

oh...stone thing is what I'm trying to say...down on the river there.

I...I do have some relics and things of hers, and uh...uh...I asked my

brother one day, what were we going to do with them, and he said, well,

he supposed it would be a good thing to carry them into Montgomery, and

put them on display there. They have an Indian display up in the

archives at uh, Montgomery...so I guess that's where they will go. But

it's a beautiful thing to be uh, part of this, and I hope that everybody

will try their best to hold it up, and let the Indian have its day, as it

looks to me like it is coming forth.

I: Uh, where did you yourself grow up?

S: In uh, Covington County, Andalusia, Alabama...um huh.

I: Uh, could you talk about, as a child uh...were you aware...uh, was it

impressed upon you that you were part Indian?

S: Yes...see, you know this much, or this I recall. When we were children,





S: ...uh, I was telling my husband the other day, I said we didn't have

to get many whippings, because my mother, at the time I.was born, she

hadn't been back too long, you know, from the west, and she had uh,

beautiful Indian blankets and things that she had got...gotten out

there. And she would let this long hair of hers down, and put this

blanket around her, and do this stomp. I have many pictures, and tapes

of my mother doing the stomp. You should hear some of her Indian songs,

it's beautiful. And we didn't have to have any whipping, we sat down and

behaved ourselves. That's true.

I: Do you yourself know any of the Indian songs?

S: Uh, yes, I know some of the Indian...not in Indian words, but I do.


I: Could you hum one, or maybe sing one in English words or something?

S: I.can't give this away, it's beautiful. I have two...I have two, that I

can not give away, uh, but some time uh, I will. They're perfectly

beautiful. I uh....

1: When you say you can't give them away...what do you....?

S: Well what we're going to do is have them copywrited. See, we want to, uh,

we want everybody to have it,-but we...but it is hers. And it's my

brother and myself, and we, of course, we cherish this very much.

I: Uh, when was the first time that you can recall, that you were aware

that there was uh, the Creek Indian community around Atmore?




S: Oh...well uh...many...many years back when I was a girl my brothers...uh, or

my father was a meat sales...I meat business, and my brothers all wholesale

meat, they still do. And of course they knew that uh, that all...a bunch of

Indians were down here. But we also knew that they were all up in around

in Covington County, and around Montgomery, and...well just all through the

south. But they did not have the little village like these people have kept together

here, because they...they stretched out and married among different uh...uh,

types of...types of people. You know, white people, and mixed in. So I think

it's beautiful that these people have their little village here, and we

recognize it and love it...uh...very much.

I: Uh...were you uh...well your husband is on the council...is that right?

S: Yes...yes.

I: Was he on the original council that was...?

S: No...no, no, no...he wasn't. George Rogers was not, my husband was not, no.

I: When did he come on the council?

S: He has just recently come on, but uh, my brother...they have asked him many
times, but he is uh...been an awful busy man up in Covingtin County, and he

couldn't. We knew the late Calvin McGhee. He was precious. He knew my mother.

I have all kind of pictures and everything that they would be together.

And uh, my people did love and honor Chief McGhee...the late Chief Clvin


I: Did uh...was there ever a chapter of...of Kilroy organized-in uh...Covington

County...the political party that Chief Calvin started ?




S: Uh...I think there was at one time. Uh...uh, I believe that there was.

I...I mean I can't say for sure.

I: Uh, he did visit up in that area?

S: Yes indeed he did. I...we...I...I should say, yes. yery much...yes, he sure


I: Could you just talk a little bit...I never got to meet Chief Calvin McGhee,

could you talk a little bit more about what kind of man he was, and what he

was doing?

S: Well, I think that he was uh...that he was a man that had compassion for

his people, and for all people. Uh...the time that we...the...knew him, he

wa...my brothers and I and all my kin, my husband, and all of us had the

greatest respect for what he did, and for his uh...children that are left

here, and for his widow. He uh...went to Washington many times. He stood to

the front. Had he not, we would not, and...and...and the people around Poprch

and Covington County, and every where else would not be where they are today.

I: Uh...how did you find out about the uh...Land Claims Case back in 1950, can

you recall that?

S: Yes. It was published in the papers all...everywhere, and people that did not

'take advantage of it, uh, they were asleep, or something was wrong, uh, because

naturally if they had Indian blood in them, they were alert, and they were

watching for bything uh...of the Indian...uh...of that type of thing.

I: Do you recall when you came and first registered on the Land Claims Case?

S: Not really...not really. I wouldn't uh, exactly. But it had been many years

back. It...I mean it's been long...a long time back. And uh, since I uh,

uh, I have...since my mother...let's put it this way, since my mother has




S: beenn gone, I regret so much that I did not get to carry her to Oklahoma,

which she wished so many times that she could have uh...got to do. But since

she's been gone, my husband and I have made several trips into Oklahoma,

been to the stomp dances, sat under the hickory nut tree where my mother

nursed one of my-sisters to her breast, and you can imagine the feeling

that I had while I was there. And then we went on down and visited my

little half-brother's grave. And uh, it was a beautiful thing. I've never

enjoyed anything as much. It was sorrowful yet joyful for me to get to do

this very thing.

I: What year did your mother pass away?

S: '65...in June...June the third...eleven o'clock. She lived a...uh, I have

her obituary, that,it should be published. It's the most beautiful thing.

Uh, my.father was a Confederate soldier. And as I said, he was English on

his father's side, but...my grandmother was a Stokes, and we have traced it

down, to where grandmother Snowden was also of the Creek blood. And uh, uh,

not only through our mother do we hail the Creek blood, but we hail it

from my father on grandma Snowden...Stokes Snowden's side too.

I: Uh, I've forgotten now whether you said or not, but uh, what was your mother's

maiden name?

S: Her name was Bundrich, which I suppose I...we have run it down. I think it

would be uh...German. And this uh...this full-blooded Creek Indian girl

married into this....married this German man, and so that is where that we

get that.

I: So your mother was half German and half Creek?

S: Yes, uh huh...yes, yes she was, and my father was good half.




S: But uh...hail from the...uh..I am blonde, or brownette, you'd call, and

people look at me. So I hail from the English. I have to say I'm full of

English but.... 0n grandma Stokes, why we...she was born and reared in

Covington County herself, and so she was uh...uh, Indian. My brother thinks

she was probably full-blood. So as I said, as I have said before, there's

not many people in the southern states, if they care to run their lineage

down, but what they can find plenty of uh...Chickasaw...well, all of the

uh...five fairly civilized tribes.

I: We've been talking about the past. I wanted to ask you uh...a very general

kind of question. And...and in your own opinion, uh, what do you see in

the future for uh, the Creek descendents of the eastern United States?

S: Well...you've..you have asked an honest question, and I'll try to answer

it honest. I see ...if they will uh...come together, and stay together, I

see great things for them happening. But uh...if they will do as uh,

Teeumby- said..."all Creek together," they...they will really come forth.

But if they don't...why then it...it would be sad as usual. But uh...really

and truly there's Indians today all over the United States. It is the

Indian's day. And if they will stay together, and pull together...east of

the Mississippi.. .there's no reason why therecan't be the-greatest things

that's ever happened to the Indian in many many years.

I: Speaking of...of what's happening with Indians all over the country,

uh, yourself, now speaking as one Creek Indian descendent...uh, how do you

feel about uh, some of the things that have happened lately, such as the

occupation of Alcatraz,, and the Wounded Knee situation, and what happened

last fall at the Bureau of Indian Affairs...and those things?




S: That is an awful uh, bold question for me to try to answer. Uh, I...but I,

I will spin my opinion. I...I see that it's good in some ways, and in some

ways that it is not, but I have to uh, say this much. That the Indian has

been the underdog, and has been treated so bad all these years. Uh, they

shouldn't go in and try to hurt or harm anything...uh, or anybody but...I

think it is their day to...to uh...stand up and be counted.

I: What other ways do you think Indians could stand up and be counted besides

these kind of militant actions?

S: Uh...give their children all the education they can possibly give them.

Do not let them stay out of school. Uh..uh, and the Indians stand up, and,

and, and know he is as good, or...as anybody, and-better than some. For him

to stand up and be bold, and not to...to take the back seat anymore. And

uh...to not be ugly with it, but stand up for his rights. Yes!

I: I want to go back to the past for just a moment. Uh, one question I...one

question I neglected to ask you was...when you were growing up uh...in

Covington County, was there any specific uh...discrimination against Indian

people in Covington County?

S: There certainly was. We were talking just uh, the other day, all my family,

we were at a reunion, and uh, the people that were uh...really Creek Indian,

uh that wasn't married to somebody that could sort.of bring them out, they

were pitifull, they...they.... Yes...yes, we know many, many of the families

now that we didn't know was-Creek-then, that we do know, and we see how

pitifull they were...were treated in school, and everywhere else. Yes,

this is certainly true.

I: Were they allowed to go to school with white people?




S: Uh...no, no, they wasn't way back. They were not. And if they did go...if

they did get in to the schools they were uh...treated so badly by the,

you know children are cruel...children are cruel, and they'd be so

crueW treated, and then the teacher didn't take up nay time with them

.either. Uh, I stand uh, where uh...this is not the thing to say, but

it's true. And they uh...they did not...the...the children would get

so humiliated, until they wuld uh, automatically just say I'm not going

back anymore.

I: Uh, I...I know it's painful to think about, and happened a long time

ago, but uh, what were the kinds of things that would uh, be done to

humiliate the children, do you remember?

S: Yes. Yes, of course. Uh, uh, they wouldn't have the clothes to wear.

They didn't look like the other children. They were poorer, and they

uh, they...they just didn't have it. They didn't have the facilities at

home that the uh, white children had, and it was embarrassing. Yes,

very much. Uh, this is true.

I: In this area around here, I've heard that uh, sometimes, for the

darker Indian children...uh, uh...say not in this county, but in other

counties, who did go to school in white schools. Uh, that sometimes uh,

children would call them nigger. Have you ever heard of that happening

in Covington County?

S: Well, not especially Negro, I don't think, but anything...black Dutch,

or, or maybe I did here Negro, I don't know. But they...you...you do

know that uh, that the majority of the white people looked down on the

full-bloods, and...and well...called them that in different places we




S: PA4know. Uh, but uh...everybody there, uh, around in Covington County,

they would be black Dutch or something else, and...and we know that our

history teaches us that there wasn't any such thing as a black Dutch.

But they were treated so badly until...uh, they would claim just anything

in the world to keep from being uh, just...just put under...being the


I: Now uh...black Dutch is a term that I haven't heard around here, except

from one person who uh, was probably quoting you.

S: Um huh.

I: Uh, what is the history of that term, black Dutch...I hadn't come...?

S: Uh, well uh, from all that I have studied, I have studied for the last

twenty years pretty well, and we don't find anything...such a thing, and

maybe I'm wrong, but I think I'm right...any such thing as a black Dutch

people.. But the people around Montgomery, and Montgomery County,

Covington County, and all through there, they would claim black Dutch,

the Creek Indians would...Chickasaw, or whatever Indian they were...to

keep from being called Indian because they were discriminated, and treated

so badly.

I: So black Dutch was a kind of common term in the Montgomery area?

S: That's right, and Covington County...yes...yes.

I: Uh, was black Dutch ever said as a kind of...as an insult to somebody?

S: Yes. Yes, yes, yes....yes.

", ta..uh...now I've...of course talked mainly with people in this area

about uh, how they uh, the Indian activities of today in Escambia

County, Alabama. Uh, with the things that have happened over the past




I: twentyy years...uh, generally speaking, in Covington County, is

there a greater awareness and pride in being Indian...of these people

from former times?

S: No, .1 don't think so. You mean you believe...are the people that are Indian,

are they proud of it, or are they .sort of ashamed to admit it to the


I: Are they proud of it now?

S: They're proud of it, yes, they're proud of it, but still there is uh,

uh...a holiness with the white people that still gives a...a sort of a

shove back.

I: Um huh.

S: Yes.

I: That goes on today, now?

S: Uh, yes, it still goes on, but it is being stamped out uh, very much so.

I: Did you say you live in Pensacola at the present time?

S: Yes...yes, I live in Pensacola, Florida. My husband works at the Navy

air station. He's a retired uh, veteran, but he was finishing up at the

Navy air station.

I: Ahile back, Govenor Askew of Florida was proud to announce that Florida

was one of the first states with an Indian Commission that was...the

majority of the members of it were Indian. Uh have the Indian people in

the Pensacola area had any contact with the Indian Commission of the

State of Florida?

S: Uh, undoubtedly they must have if...if that is what he said...I'm sure

that's true.




I: I was just wondering at the time, if he was aware of the fact that there

were many Creek Indians in Florida as well as Seminoles?

S: Uh, I think he is aware of it now, if he hasn't been. I'm sure he is.

Uh huh. And he's-a fine governor.

I: From Pensacola originally.

S: Yes.



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