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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
CRK 40A
SUBJECT: MRS. LOLICE SNOWDEN ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
DATE: JULY, 15, 1973
SIDE: ONE
PAGE: ONE
P: This is July the .fifteenth, and I'm interviewing Mrs.......?
S: Lolice Rogers.
I: Lolice....
h
S: I'm Lolice Snowden Rogers. My father was an Englisman. His father came
over from England, but my father married a Creek Indian woman. My mother
was a squaw, which we're proud to have and know that we are...and do
have the blood of the first American flowing through our veins. Uh, I
was...
I: __ could you say where you were born?
S: I was born and reared in Covington County, Andalusia, Alabama. Which we
all know, just a few miles down uh...south of uh...Montgomery, Alabama,
which was Creek country all through there. Was taught, and reared, and
to know that we were...did have Creek in us as our mother was Creek.
Respected it and loved it, and uh...I...I will say a little bit about
my mother's uh...life. Uh, she was married before she was married to
my father...uh, to Columbus Ira Crockett. And I have some Crockett
half-brothers and sisters. Uh, she traveled all through the west, was
at all the Creek Indian stomp dances when she was around twenty-four
k ____________________
ZUTiEM,;T: TrS-. LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: tWand five years old. And I have a little brother, half-brother,
buried at Hastings, Oklahoma.
I: Excuse me, about what-year. was this?
S: 1901.
-I: About when she was twenty-five?
S: Yes...uh huh. She...yes, uhhuh...uh huh. And my mother lived to a ripe
old age... become blind before she-passed away however. I was her baby,
child, she lived with my Lusband and I in Pensacola, Florida for eleven
years before she did pass. So uh...after she went uh...traveled all through
-the western country, and waA with the Creeks and different tribes of
Indians, she made her way back to her home ,here she was born, in
Conec'4bCounty, Alabama, up on S3pulga River. Then, as I say, she met
and married my father, Charles W. Snowden.
I: Could I ask you a question?
S: Yes.
I: Uh...did your mother's ancestors, did they get an allotment during the
removal period...or how was it they happened to be able to stay in
Alabama?
S: Well...that I...I don't know exactly how to answer that. They must
have, undoubtedly. Because uh...uh she...she did stay in Alabama,
and she knew all the while that she was a Creek-Indian. We are...we
are qualified all we children, we had no trouble with the documents
that we carried in. It was plain, and...and uh, we did uh, qualify.
2
SUBJECT: MRS. LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: So we...we do love our Indian blood, and I hope everybody that has a drop
of any kind, Chickasaw, Seminole, or whatever you have, be proud you are
part of the first American.
I: Could you to uh, set the time period...I know it's not polite to ask a lady
her age, but just say the age you were born?
S: Oh...I don't mind. Yes, I was born in 1913. The twenty-ninth day of this
month, I'll be sixty years old. My mother was ninety when she passed
away, in '65.
I: Can you recall at all, from listening to your mother talk, as to how
she made contact with Creek Indians in Oklahoma, and how she uh...uh...got
to know about stomp dances and things out there?
S: Yes I can. See, she was married to a frontJr man, her Columbus Ira
Crockett. He made all of the Indian:"to dos", and big powwows, and my mother
was thrown right in and among each'and every one, and she did have many
friends, and was recognized as Creek with the Creeks.
"1: Did your mother speak any of the Muscogee language?
S: Some, she did. Yes she did.
I: Can you remember any of the words?
S: Not really, uh we...you know how it is with an Englis father and all.
Uh, I really am telling the truth. I;..I did not.
I: From your mother...uh...did she ever talk to you about old Creek uh,
ways, or about Creek history, the traditions that had come down through her
family? Can you remember any of those? Could you talk about those please?
3
SUBJECT: MRS. LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Yes I can. Of course her...her father, uh...she was almost reared to be a
0" e i
Creek Indian, and of course I can. tF, Sfpulga running out of Conecuh uh,
County...and...and Covington...all in there. Uh, they had their, uh,
their cookouts, and their...uh, they would roast their meat...and...and
they lived rough. My mother was uh...uh...among nine children. They were
poor...very poor. And uh, how well I do remember the...the obstacles, and
the many hardships that she went through as being a Creek Indian.
I: What...specifically, what were some of those hardships?
S: Well now to...uh...uh...the hardships that she had, well, she wouldn't
call it hardships really, but she didn't have what the neighboring
children had...the American children. She didn't have the shoes and
things, and she used to tell us, her hair was so course and long and
black, that uh, the rest of the girls, American girls would curl their hair,
and she would try, but there would neverrany curl stay in her hair.
I...I remember that very distinctly. And uh...uh, of course they uh...they
knew how, my grandfather was a great hunter, and back in those days it
was still wild here. And he...she said they always had plenty of wild
food to eat, and uh, maybe uh, corn...which they survived on good, but we
children thought it was an awful thing that our mother didn't have any
more advantage than she had. And she did not get to have very much
education.
I: Did your mother make sofkee?
S: Yes! Oh yes, she would...she did...that's right, and we would have that,
uh...when we would be sick, and sort of ailing. Uh, she would make this
sofkee out of uh...uh corn meal. The way my mother made it, she'd make
S4
SUBJECT: MRS. LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: oAjit out of corn meal...uh, put it in the boiler, and then she would
uh...uh, if it was hickory nut time, she would beat up the goodies of
the hickory nut, and uh, uh, throw right over in there, and put some
milk in it. Well that was nourishing man...I tell you...it was...it was
good.
I: Can you recall her ever...uh ever seeing her, or ever hearing her
talking about in former times, having beat up her own corn meal at all,
uh, ground up her own meal?
S: Uh, her father did...yes. Yes they would, they'd let the corn dry, and
then they would beat it, and uh...and so they could have the hoe-cake.
The...they called it the hoecake. In a big round...some kind of a,
oh...stone thing is what I'm trying to say...down on the river there.
I...I do have some relics and things of hers, and uh...uh...I asked my
brother one day, what were we going to do with them, and he said, well,
he supposed it would be a good thing to carry them into Montgomery, and
put them on display there. They have an Indian display up in the
archives at uh, Montgomery...so I guess that's where they will go. But
it's a beautiful thing to be uh, part of this, and I hope that everybody
will try their best to hold it up, and let the Indian have its day, as it
looks to me like it is coming forth.
I: Uh, where did you yourself grow up?
S: In uh, Covington County, Andalusia, Alabama...um huh.
I: Uh, could you talk about, as a child uh...were you aware...uh, was it
impressed upon you that you were part Indian?
S: Yes...see, you know this much, or this I recall. When we were children,
5
L.________________--------------------_-----------------------
SUBJECT: LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...uh, I was telling my husband the other day, I said we didn't have
to get many whippings, because my mother, at the time I.was born, she
hadn't been back too long, you know, from the west, and she had uh,
beautiful Indian blankets and things that she had got...gotten out
there. And she would let this long hair of hers down, and put this
blanket around her, and do this stomp. I have many pictures, and tapes
of my mother doing the stomp. You should hear some of her Indian songs,
it's beautiful. And we didn't have to have any whipping, we sat down and
behaved ourselves. That's true.
I: Do you yourself know any of the Indian songs?
S: Uh, yes, I know some of the Indian...not in Indian words, but I do.
Uh....
I: Could you hum one, or maybe sing one in English words or something?
S: I.can't give this away, it's beautiful. I have two...I have two, that I
can not give away, uh, but some time uh, I will. They're perfectly
beautiful. I uh....
1: When you say you can't give them away...what do you....?
S: Well what we're going to do is have them copywrited. See, we want to, uh,
we want everybody to have it,-but we...but it is hers. And it's my
brother and myself, and we, of course, we cherish this very much.
I: Uh, when was the first time that you can recall, that you were aware
that there was uh, the Creek Indian community around Atmore?
6
SUBJECT: LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Oh...well uh...many...many years back when I was a girl my brothers...uh, or
my father was a meat sales...I meat business, and my brothers all wholesale
meat, they still do. And of course they knew that uh, that all...a bunch of
Indians were down here. But we also knew that they were all up in around
in Covington County, and around Montgomery, and...well just all through the
south. But they did not have the little village like these people have kept together
here, because they...they stretched out and married among different uh...uh,
types of...types of people. You know, white people, and mixed in. So I think
it's beautiful that these people have their little village here, and we
recognize it and love it...uh...very much.
I: Uh...were you uh...well your husband is on the council...is that right?
S: Yes...yes.
I: Was he on the original council that was...?
S: No...no, no, no...he wasn't. George Rogers was not, my husband was not, no.
I: When did he come on the council?
S: He has just recently come on, but uh, my brother...they have asked him many
o
times, but he is uh...been an awful busy man up in Covingtin County, and he
couldn't. We knew the late Calvin McGhee. He was precious. He knew my mother.
I have all kind of pictures and everything that they would be together.
And uh, my people did love and honor Chief McGhee...the late Chief Clvin
McGhee.
I: Did uh...was there ever a chapter of...of Kilroy organized-in uh...Covington
County...the political party that Chief Calvin started ?
7
SUBJECT: LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Uh...I think there was at one time. Uh...uh, I believe that there was.
I...I mean I can't say for sure.
I: Uh, he did visit up in that area?
S: Yes indeed he did. I...we...I...I should say, yes. yery much...yes, he sure
did.
I: Could you just talk a little bit...I never got to meet Chief Calvin McGhee,
could you talk a little bit more about what kind of man he was, and what he
was doing?
S: Well, I think that he was uh...that he was a man that had compassion for
his people, and for all people. Uh...the time that we...the...knew him, he
wa...my brothers and I and all my kin, my husband, and all of us had the
greatest respect for what he did, and for his uh...children that are left
here, and for his widow. He uh...went to Washington many times. He stood to
the front. Had he not, we would not, and...and...and the people around Poprch
and Covington County, and every where else would not be where they are today.
I: Uh...how did you find out about the uh...Land Claims Case back in 1950, can
you recall that?
S: Yes. It was published in the papers all...everywhere, and people that did not
'take advantage of it, uh, they were asleep, or something was wrong, uh, because
naturally if they had Indian blood in them, they were alert, and they were
watching for bything uh...of the Indian...uh...of that type of thing.
I: Do you recall when you came and first registered on the Land Claims Case?
S: Not really...not really. I wouldn't uh, exactly. But it had been many years
back. It...I mean it's been long...a long time back. And uh, since I uh,
uh, I have...since my mother...let's put it this way, since my mother has
8
SUBJECT: LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: beenn gone, I regret so much that I did not get to carry her to Oklahoma,
which she wished so many times that she could have uh...got to do. But since
she's been gone, my husband and I have made several trips into Oklahoma,
been to the stomp dances, sat under the hickory nut tree where my mother
nursed one of my-sisters to her breast, and you can imagine the feeling
that I had while I was there. And then we went on down and visited my
little half-brother's grave. And uh, it was a beautiful thing. I've never
enjoyed anything as much. It was sorrowful yet joyful for me to get to do
this very thing.
I: What year did your mother pass away?
S: '65...in June...June the third...eleven o'clock. She lived a...uh, I have
her obituary, that,it should be published. It's the most beautiful thing.
Uh, my.father was a Confederate soldier. And as I said, he was English on
his father's side, but...my grandmother was a Stokes, and we have traced it
down, to where grandmother Snowden was also of the Creek blood. And uh, uh,
not only through our mother do we hail the Creek blood, but we hail it
from my father on grandma Snowden...Stokes Snowden's side too.
I: Uh, I've forgotten now whether you said or not, but uh, what was your mother's
maiden name?
S: Her name was Bundrich, which I suppose I...we have run it down. I think it
would be uh...German. And this uh...this full-blooded Creek Indian girl
married into this....married this German man, and so that is where that we
get that.
I: So your mother was half German and half Creek?
S: Yes, uh huh...yes, yes she was, and my father was good half.
9
SUBJECT: LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: But uh...hail from the...uh..I am blonde, or brownette, you'd call, and
people look at me. So I hail from the English. I have to say I'm full of
English but.... 0n grandma Stokes, why we...she was born and reared in
Covington County herself, and so she was uh...uh, Indian. My brother thinks
she was probably full-blood. So as I said, as I have said before, there's
not many people in the southern states, if they care to run their lineage
down, but what they can find plenty of uh...Chickasaw...well, all of the
uh...five fairly civilized tribes.
I: We've been talking about the past. I wanted to ask you uh...a very general
kind of question. And...and in your own opinion, uh, what do you see in
the future for uh, the Creek descendents of the eastern United States?
S: Well...you've..you have asked an honest question, and I'll try to answer
it honest. I see ...if they will uh...come together, and stay together, I
see great things for them happening. But uh...if they will do as uh,
Teeumby- said..."all Creek together," they...they will really come forth.
But if they don't...why then it...it would be sad as usual. But uh...really
and truly there's Indians today all over the United States. It is the
Indian's day. And if they will stay together, and pull together...east of
the Mississippi.. .there's no reason why therecan't be the-greatest things
that's ever happened to the Indian in many many years.
I: Speaking of...of what's happening with Indians all over the country,
uh, yourself, now speaking as one Creek Indian descendent...uh, how do you
feel about uh, some of the things that have happened lately, such as the
occupation of Alcatraz,, and the Wounded Knee situation, and what happened
last fall at the Bureau of Indian Affairs...and those things?
10
SUBJECT: LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: That is an awful uh, bold question for me to try to answer. Uh, I...but I,
I will spin my opinion. I...I see that it's good in some ways, and in some
ways that it is not, but I have to uh, say this much. That the Indian has
been the underdog, and has been treated so bad all these years. Uh, they
shouldn't go in and try to hurt or harm anything...uh, or anybody but...I
think it is their day to...to uh...stand up and be counted.
I: What other ways do you think Indians could stand up and be counted besides
these kind of militant actions?
S: Uh...give their children all the education they can possibly give them.
Do not let them stay out of school. Uh..uh, and the Indians stand up, and,
and, and know he is as good, or...as anybody, and-better than some. For him
to stand up and be bold, and not to...to take the back seat anymore. And
uh...to not be ugly with it, but stand up for his rights. Yes!
I: I want to go back to the past for just a moment. Uh, one question I...one
question I neglected to ask you was...when you were growing up uh...in
Covington County, was there any specific uh...discrimination against Indian
people in Covington County?
S: There certainly was. We were talking just uh, the other day, all my family,
we were at a reunion, and uh, the people that were uh...really Creek Indian,
uh that wasn't married to somebody that could sort.of bring them out, they
were pitifull, they...they.... Yes...yes, we know many, many of the families
now that we didn't know was-Creek-then, that we do know, and we see how
pitifull they were...were treated in school, and everywhere else. Yes,
this is certainly true.
I: Were they allowed to go to school with white people?
11
SUBJECT: LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Uh...no, no, they wasn't way back. They were not. And if they did go...if
they did get in to the schools they were uh...treated so badly by the,
you know children are cruel...children are cruel, and they'd be so
crueW treated, and then the teacher didn't take up nay time with them
.either. Uh, I stand uh, where uh...this is not the thing to say, but
it's true. And they uh...they did not...the...the children would get
so humiliated, until they wuld uh, automatically just say I'm not going
back anymore.
I: Uh, I...I know it's painful to think about, and happened a long time
ago, but uh, what were the kinds of things that would uh, be done to
humiliate the children, do you remember?
S: Yes. Yes, of course. Uh, uh, they wouldn't have the clothes to wear.
They didn't look like the other children. They were poorer, and they
uh, they...they just didn't have it. They didn't have the facilities at
home that the uh, white children had, and it was embarrassing. Yes,
very much. Uh, this is true.
I: In this area around here, I've heard that uh, sometimes, for the
darker Indian children...uh, uh...say not in this county, but in other
counties, who did go to school in white schools. Uh, that sometimes uh,
children would call them nigger. Have you ever heard of that happening
in Covington County?
S: Well, not especially Negro, I don't think, but anything...black Dutch,
or, or maybe I did here Negro, I don't know. But they...you...you do
know that uh, that the majority of the white people looked down on the
full-bloods, and...and well...called them that in different places we
12
SUBJECT: LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: PA4know. Uh, but uh...everybody there, uh, around in Covington County,
they would be black Dutch or something else, and...and we know that our
history teaches us that there wasn't any such thing as a black Dutch.
But they were treated so badly until...uh, they would claim just anything
in the world to keep from being uh, just...just put under...being the
underdog.
I: Now uh...black Dutch is a term that I haven't heard around here, except
from one person who uh, was probably quoting you.
S: Um huh.
I: Uh, what is the history of that term, black Dutch...I hadn't come...?
S: Uh, well uh, from all that I have studied, I have studied for the last
twenty years pretty well, and we don't find anything...such a thing, and
maybe I'm wrong, but I think I'm right...any such thing as a black Dutch
people.. But the people around Montgomery, and Montgomery County,
Covington County, and all through there, they would claim black Dutch,
the Creek Indians would...Chickasaw, or whatever Indian they were...to
keep from being called Indian because they were discriminated, and treated
so badly.
I: So black Dutch was a kind of common term in the Montgomery area?
S: That's right, and Covington County...yes...yes.
I: Uh, was black Dutch ever said as a kind of...as an insult to somebody?
S: Yes. Yes, yes, yes....yes.
", ta..uh...now I've...of course talked mainly with people in this area
about uh, how they uh, the Indian activities of today in Escambia
County, Alabama. Uh, with the things that have happened over the past
13
SUBJECT: LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
I: twentyy years...uh, generally speaking, in Covington County, is
there a greater awareness and pride in being Indian...of these people
from former times?
S: No, .1 don't think so. You mean you believe...are the people that are Indian,
are they proud of it, or are they .sort of ashamed to admit it to the
-'
world?
I: Are they proud of it now?
S: They're proud of it, yes, they're proud of it, but still there is uh,
uh...a holiness with the white people that still gives a...a sort of a
shove back.
I: Um huh.
S: Yes.
I: That goes on today, now?
S: Uh, yes, it still goes on, but it is being stamped out uh, very much so.
I: Did you say you live in Pensacola at the present time?
S: Yes...yes, I live in Pensacola, Florida. My husband works at the Navy
air station. He's a retired uh, veteran, but he was finishing up at the
Navy air station.
I: Ahile back, Govenor Askew of Florida was proud to announce that Florida
was one of the first states with an Indian Commission that was...the
majority of the members of it were Indian. Uh have the Indian people in
the Pensacola area had any contact with the Indian Commission of the
State of Florida?
S: Uh, undoubtedly they must have if...if that is what he said...I'm sure
that's true.
14
SUBJECT: LOLICE ROGERS
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
I: I was just wondering at the time, if he was aware of the fact that there
were many Creek Indians in Florida as well as Seminoles?
S: Uh, I think he is aware of it now, if he hasn't been. I'm sure he is.
Uh huh. And he's-a fine governor.
I: From Pensacola originally.
S: Yes.
END
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