Title: Interview with Buford Rolin (April 6, 1973)
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007513/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Buford Rolin (April 6, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: April 6, 1973
 Subjects
Spatial Coverage: Creek County (Fla.) -- History.
 Notes
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
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Bibliographic ID: UF00007513
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Creek County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: CRK 38

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CRK 38AB
\ SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
\INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
DATE: 4-6-73
TAPE A, SIDE 1.

PAGE: ONE.












I: Two---three---four. Testing 1...2...3..4. This is April the sixth 1973,

and this is in Pensacola, Florida at the home of Buford Rolin. Uh Buford

Rolin has been a very important, and helpful person in my research. One

of the first of the Creek Indians that I met, and actually the first

council member Skat I met, and set up my very first appearance before

*\ council. And we've talked many times informally in the past, and I

hope to get some of this information on tape...so this will be a kind

of informal and rambling interview. Why don't you start off Buford by

starting with your early rememberances of life in the community. How things

were back when you were a boy.

S: You want me to include the schooling and all this?

I: Uh...include your experiences in school...yeah. Your own personal

experiences in growing up in the community.

S: Well...in my uh...in my earlier childhood of course one of the things -'k-cV

we were taught to...was that we had to...in order for life to have any

meaning at all for us...we had to become self-sufficient. In other words,

we had to...for us to have any...for life to have any meaning or anything

we had to first uh...my father taught me...even though he was uneducated,

I can remember back in my early childhood...even in grade school...uh,

he wanted me to have an education. Uh...I remember...we were very poor.











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Uh...uh...uh...but we had...there was a lot of love in our home I

suppose. That's why I...what I like to attribute to my success, what-

ever it might be today. And uh...uh...school.......I was always very

active in school, and grammar school through high school. My earlier

school, I attended uh...uh, which was...what was rather...uh...in the

beginning, for any formal education for anyone was set up in the...a

church-owned building, which later became a public school. I attended

uh...first through the third grades there. And uh...in the fourth, fifth,

and sixth grade, I attended at the school at Porch. Then in the seventh

through the twelfth grade I went into At/more...was uh...bused daily.

Some fif...over fifty miles round trip.

I: Incidently...before we get too far...for the sake of posterity...would

you say how old you are now on the tape so we know what time period this

is.

S: O.k...I'm thirty-two years of age. Uh...earlier childhood...uh...as I

remember, uh I...we uh...we were...my...my parents...uh...I guess to

really...uh...my life has been involved always in church work. What I

mean by this is that uh...my family...aa-I was born in a log cabin that

belonged to the church. Which was the care takers home. Which uh...uh,

after a few years of living there...uh we bought a small farm, probably

I'd say a half a mile, forty acre farm...my dad did...from the church.

And uh...my earlt years...uh...we...were just spent in...uh...mainly

involved I would say in church activities...mainly to and from church.

Then to school...we lived at the distance close enough...where I walked

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: 4vyto and from school. Uh...we...I uh...even as a child, as I stated

earlier, my father...one of the things that I remember so vividly today,

is that uh...he instilled, and taught us, the value of an education.

Mainly I think because he hadn't had the opportunity, and with uh...

having worked with uh...the uh...people of the church there, who were,

I would say missionaries...uh...and having been exposed to uh...travel,

not extensively, just throughout Alabama...

I: In connection with the church?

S: In connection with the church...he had...could see the value of education.

So this is one of the things he really...uh...stressed to us...the

importance, and the value of one. He could see the need of education.

I: What part did he play in the...the school issue...back in the late

'40s?

S: Well now uh...I don't remember specifically ever having him say, other

than that he did support...uh...Calvin McGhee and Jack De.eher and those

others. Uh...because he knew that he had children that would soon be at

the age...uh...school age that they wouldn't...would be needing...uh,

in order for them to have an education equivalent to...or uh...or

uh...being able to attend an institution higher...of higher learning

where they could attain more formal education...uh...they would have to

have either the schools would have to be set up there, or we would have

to go into town. So, he was very...he supported this, now just how actively

I haven't heard him say.

I: Now along the line of general schooling, and all that kind of thing...you

3












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





I: Wlyourself, how much association did you have with children outside the

community here, your own age, any at all?

S: Done...no, none at all, really, that I can recall, with the exception

of...here again I have to go back to uh...refer to uh...church work.

Uh...this time...I remember my early childhood...uh...I would say in my

earlier teens...the vacation Bible schools...were uh...begining to uh...

be a part of the community life because of envi-eament and several of the

other churches. So therefore our church began to have uh...vacation

Bible schools. Then through the church...now our church had a uh...a camp,

in northern Alabama that uh...

I: Episcopal church?

S: Episcopal church, yes...that uh...our young people from uh...uh...uh...the

primary...not primary...I guess first grades level up through the senior

high school...various camps throughout the summer...that they attended.

And we were uh...invited to these camps. Now...traditionally...and it was

just uh...in order for you to attend these camps...even though it was

church sponsored...each family was supposed to provided the expenses for

their own children. Of course we weren't in any posittion to have uh...any

funds, or monies just specifically set aside, uh...to really...I guess

they could see the value and all I'm sure...the need for the outside

contact, and the benefit we would see. But having worked with what we

had, and the small farm that we did, it was just very important that

uh...in order for us to have...uh...school clothing, and to have...try

to save up some little money to have during the winter...uh...it was

4












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: essential that if there was any kind of work available, that we needed

to work, whether it would be at home, or in the community. Uh...uh, or

sometimes...I remember in the early spring...we didn't...I didn't...uh, go

as often as a lot of the other Ind...younger people in the area...uh,

into Baldwin County and work, in the potato season. However, during the

later years, in my later teenage years...I was permitted to go down, and

uh...work.

I: Did-you ever miss school to go and do that?

S: No...these were uh...uh...at this time, uh,ft was always right at the

school...our school year was set up to where, at that time we were out

of school...no later than the...I would say the 25th of May. And normal

this was when this season really began to uh...become uh...

I: Do you recall how young the youngest children were that went over to

Baldwin County?

St Well,-I would say some as young as...uh...six to...six years of age. They

went and picked these potatoes, you know, with their...with their parents.

I never once...now the one thing I never did...I can remember...these uh,

this one man that uh...well, there were several men that had these big

trucks, you know, with just packed people on them...and drive them down

there. And they would pick these potatoes, but I never-t.ta.rode that.

The only time that I went down, would be to work on the potato shed

itself, and actually live there for a week. The we'd uh...go home on

the weekends.

I: Where did you live when you lived over there?


5











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Now there was always this camp that they referred to was referred to,

but it was normally, usually a big house that the farmer had for...for

I guess"Isharecroppers...or migratory workers. And I guess we...you

could classify us as migratory workers...because we did that. And uh...

uh...now mostly the women lived in these houses though. The boys...we

just sort of roughed it, you know, we stayed in the...on the, you know,

after the...we'd complete the work for the day, we had our quilts and

blankets, and we'd just sleep right on the potato shed...mostly. And

uh...then, you know, morning come...packed that away...and back to work

again.

I: Were there uh...groups of people that would come from other places to

work in these potato fields too?

S: Uh...yes there were. Uh...I know in partictA...now just as the...these

people that I referred to,earlier that went in these trucks...they were

Indian themselves. They had these trucks...but they would also take the

Negro laborers in and then...mainly I would...I would think, and just

because I don't know if there was any reason for this...but it...generally

it was your Negro laborer that picked the potatoes mostly, and uh...

because the fact that uh...uh...I don't know how long that they had been

working down there on this potato shed...so...but uh...I don't know, I
Ct-
remember most our people...we worked on the potato shed. So....

I: Now what's a potato shed-exactly...just-storage area?

S: The potato shed is uh...the area where that they used to uh...your

potatoes were...they gathered them in the fields, they were bagged,

6










SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ...trucked into the shed, they were then dumped, and there was a

grading area, and uh...they picked the bad potatoes from the uh...the

yield there, and uh...then they were bagged, and...and uh...loaded on

to vans, and shipped out to different parts of the United States. And

this....

I: Well, you say generally the Indian people worked in the shed...and the

colored people were out in the field?

S: Around in the field...that's correct.

I: Were there any white workers there?

S: There were white too, but normally...I don't know...as I look back over

it and what...uh...as I remember it...this was mainly your two uh...as

I remember it...uh...always you could...I never thought of it then in

a sense, but there was probably that the uh...distinct difference,

because you had...you had your colored in the field, and your Indians

that worked the potato shed. And of course now there was some of the

colored people that yg4,odid work on the shed.

I: What was the pay...do you recall that?

S: Oh...my goodness...I remember uh...I think probably...now they...I'm

...like I say now...we never did...I didn't get involved that much until

our later years...I can remember I think probably seventy-five cents an

hour.

I: You were payed by the hour right...not bag or something?

S: By the hour,.by bag. And uh...of course as I mentioned earlier, we

had our own little farm and uh...now we, in later years there...we started

planting the cucumbers, you know, and they...the production of the

7











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: VNcucumbers, and the uh...they came off just about the time that your

potato season did. So uh...there was always plenty of work to do at home,

and it was just in...I would say for myself, it wasn't just an annual

thing, it was...probably I made three or four trips down there...in

the four or five years, you know.

I: Did you yourself or any members of your family ever go off further, like

to North Carolina, or Wisconsin and work in the fields?

S: Now...let me...I had one experience where I went with my aunt. She had

gotten involved with the Agricultural Department.

I: Aunt Florence?

S: My Aunt Florence.

I: Um huh.

S: Uh...through...uh...some other...the Indian men there. They had gotten

involved too. Uh there were these uh...different farmers...tobacco farmers,

and tomato farmers, that were looking for...uh...people to come and gather

the crops from out of state. I did make one trip to Virginia...with my

Aunt Florence. I was there two weeks. And I didn't leave because of the

work...I left mainly because of the living conditions.

I: Really?

S: Yeah.

I: What was it like?

S: Well...uh...it was such a...I had...being a young...as young as I was,

well I guess I was seventeen or eighteen years old...I just sort of had

projected that...uh...life away from home is to...even though working

8












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: founder these conditions...as being a little different. And as I remember

cor...uh...uh...this particular situation. There was this long build-

ing that we stayed in...no privacy what so ever...and everybody just

sort of spread their little...their bed rolls or something in whatever

end they were in...there were some areas the...that uh...I think that

the...this building that I went to...uh...it might have been three or

four rooms. And they used one area for eating and cooking, and the living

area was there. But now we went into the fields during the day and gathered

the tomatoes...but we gathered the tomatoes...see...and then....

I: Well tell me were there men and women both in this one building, or did

they have two separate buildings?

S: No...no...the men and women were in there.

I: Together?

S: Together. Um huh. Well in this situation I can remember...there was two

or three...uh...two or three families that we had that went. Man...men...a

man, woman, and .some children..And we were.just sort of...all sort of just

home folks, you-know, living together.

I: Everybody in that building was from your community?

S: Yes...um huh...yeah. Everybody...uh...well, kin folk.

I: Uh huh.

S: They were kin folks. Now....

I: Were you all the whole crew for that particular farm, or were there other

members of the group too?

S: Well now there were other members that were there. Uh...uh...we were

9












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Vworking, I don't remember the name of the company, but we went out,

and when we went into the fields to work there were other people that

were there...either local or people who had come in especially for the

harvest season of these tomatoes. And although...it was so hot, I never

will forget that...so hot out there...and uh...just...I don't...the work

just...it just wasn't uh...first of all, even though we were poor, and

uh...we had uh...things were pretty uh...hom...and in our home...we

didn't have the...the particular life styles, and the conveniences of

your more modern homes. And we had been taught to respect one another,

and what have you. And this type of thing...I could just see that it

just wasn't...uh...it just gave me the feeling...I just felt like I was jU 9M,

an outcast. Just living on the...uh...uh...just in uh...uh...just really

living, or existing. And I wasn'ty^there really...I couldn't see anything

beneficial from it. So uh...I just made the decision at that particular

time...one of the men who'd went up from the community...he just...he had

been enticed into going too. I mean he'd heard all the reports of the

Success and all...the...that you could...the money was available there,

which it was, but you really had to work. And you had to have people that

were really...wanting to work, because I thought...I never...that I can

ever recall...to picked up any uh...potatoes, and put in the baskets, but

this is what you did in the tomato fields...you picked them and basketed
UP .
them. And uh...I think it was something like ten cents a basket. And uh,

it just really...the...the tomatoes were there...they were plentiful.

But it was...I don't know...like I say...I just couldn't see myself


10











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Ky,/out there. And uh...I thought...I had some reservations about the

whole thing...I said...gosh...surely life's got to have more meaning

than this, you know, and I said...at least for me anyways. So uh...at

the end of those two weeks...and I had an aunt now that was living

there at the time...she was from Mobile...and they...

I: She was living in Virginia?

S: She was living in Virginia. And she had invited me up to her...their

home to stay with them...I said-no, but she had a real nice two-story

home there, with several of the families who had uh...well, it was her

step father and his wife and all had come up from uh...Atfmore, and

they were living there.

I: Which aunt.was this?

S: Now this was my Uncle Edmond's...uh...wife, Myrtle, and they were there.

he was living in Mobile. He worked the state uh...but she...I'don't...I

...I don't really know how she ever got up there other than just:to hear

about this...about the farming and what have you. And uh...so they, you

know, ask me to stay, and I said no...I just...I must go back home, this

is just not for me. So I did...I came back home. Uh...and I don't think

I was ever so happy to see home as I was then. I just...I knew that this

just wasn't...my...the type of life that I wanted to live. And now several

of the other families that I remember even went farther. They went up to,

into Wisconsin, that area, working potato fields. This never interested

me. I never wanted...after that one experience, I just felt like...surely

things had to have a different meaning and there was more to than...I


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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES






S: ...I just didn't feel secure in roaming all over the country, and this

was....

I: One thing I've never been able to really pin down...is how the Indians

got started in this roaming around the country. I've...Jack Dauttry

for example carried a lot of people around, and I....
M,0) m a.)
S: Miles McGhee that you never mentioned...I think Mile was probably....

I: Did they do it through Agriculture Extension agents, or...?

S: That's right...right. This was the...he came down...I remember that,

I'd forgotten his name, but he came down from Bratton, the agent did,

After...you see...at this time, uh, Alabama, and all the different areas,
VYein-
states I suppose were zhe notified of the need of help to work...uh...in

these fields and what have you. So that's how it got started. Now uh...it

was from that...uh...that you had more and more of your people getting

involved. It was just a means for the...the older people I can see, for

them to make some quick money you know...to support them throughout the

year. And if you had good working people, and people that were eager to

work. Just like going into North Carolina to those tobacco fields,

uh...if you went in there...you had a good group of men...and women too

that were eager to work...it could be very beneficial to you...worthwhile.

I: How...how long ago do you think this first began...or...this going to

different parts of the country working...well even going as far as

Baldwin County...do you remember when you were real small...the older

people talking about having gone to these different places or not?


12












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Well I suppose as soon as...as I remember...uh...hearing...as a child,

I can remember the stories of uh...the people gaping to Baldwin County,

to work in the potato fields. Now...their mode of transportation I don't

know. I don't know if they went by wagons that they drove down and

horse and...and uh...mule and wagon rather...or if the way...if it came

about during the area of modern transportation as it began...I would say

probably...I think it would be safe to assume...to say probably in the,

I would think maybe the late thirties. Most.definitely the early forties,

'tM this....

I: Now what about working in the citrus...I've heard your dad talk about

having worked down there...what do you know about that...how did that get

going?

S: Now this was another program through the extension...Agricultural Extension

Program. Now...my dad went to Florida...South Florida, with Jack Daultry,

to partic...to par...pick the oranges.

I: Um huh.

S: And this was another time, you see, that uh during the harvest season,

and this was during the summer, you see. Then they could go...as this

thing was set up, you know, as your seasons...if I remem...as I remember,

you had your spring...your spring harvest, such as your potatoes, and

uh...your...probably your green vegetables, and cucumbers...of this thing.

Then they could travel to Southern Florida, during the summer for the

harvesting of oranges, and by the early...uh early August, or no later

than late August, they were back to pick the cotton...gather the cotton,

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: t.you see...and....

I: In the immediate area...right?

S: In the immediate area, and this constituted I guess about six or seven

months of really active employment there, if you were interested.

I: What about picking of pecans...has that been something people have done

for a long time?

S: Now uh...picking of pecans I think probably...I would think...uh...this

came as...uh you mentioned picking of pecans...here I think of Aunt

Florence again...she got involved...uh...mainly because of uh...uh...the

picking of cotton. Now she met, you know, different people in Uriah, and

what have you...they had these pecans that had to be harvested. So uh...

that's how that came about.

I: Now-what season of the year...pecans are like in October, November...?

S: October, November....

I: Now that's after all the cotton?

S: After cotton.

I: Um huh.

S: So actually you see...it turned...when they started including the pecans,

and to really be truthful about it, from what I can hear, that...it

doesn't seem like something that small...that you could really make any

money at it. But I've heard those...those women mention that uh...seventy

and eighty dollars for one week...it just is...

I: Now when people got started doing all these things, going around gathering

different crops, were they still trying to keep their own farms at home

too?
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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Yes. Now in our situation...uh...you see we had allotments for cotton,

and this type thing. We had just a few acres, but even...you see, we

could come in...uh we had these trucks again...these men that...say for

example I use Alfred Jackson, Mile McGhee...uh those were the two in

our community...I remember most...and Willie Gibson, Willie...he

worked with uh...Mile, in autumn...you see...they would take us over

even...to Lottie, which is just a community just up the road from...uh,

Porch there, and we'd pick this cotton...well if thirty or forty of us
by
went in a field in the morning,.ad afternoon...we could...we could

clear out quite a number of acres, and it got to the point there, I

can remember one period, we used to pick the cotton, but then somehow

or another through the ginning process, they found out that you could

pull the whole bud from the stock, and uh...uh they could uh...through

the ginning they had uh...engineered and uh...and with technology and all

had uh...you know...advanced it to where they had some means of...you

just didn't have to pick the cotton itself, you know they could eliminate

this waste...

I: Yeah.

S: And...uh...and then-after the...uh really...during the cotton season, after

you started going there and stripping this...stalks like that...it was

just nothing to cotton picking any more.

I: But...the thing that I' trying to get at...it was still possible say, for

a family, to go off to different places picking and so forth, and still

keep their own farm at home?

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Yes...um huh. Uh...like I...I was going to make that point...uh...in

our case, where we had just a few acres, you see, well we could just set

aside, maybe in the communities it...look...now we're going to work over

at this farm in Lottie a certain number of days, and then we're going to

be back, and we can gather your cotton, and uh...a certain certain day.

I: Oh you...everybody that had worked in Lottie, say, would come and work

on your farm?

S: Yeah...yeah wecould just do it like that...after we got...

I: And did you pay them something for helping you, or would that...?
p id
S: Oh yeah...everybody was payed and all that...

I: Excuse me...was there ever any...a time when, say, everybody would go

pick this person's field, then you'd go pick the next person's field in

the group without paying any money?

S: Yes. No...no it was always...each farmer payed, you know, for the gathering

of their crop.

I: In the community...in the community too.

S: Right. Yeah.

I: Uh...getting back to the church for just a minute Buford...uh...I

remember one time, just in a casual conversation, you were talking about

uh...I've forgotten his name now...that Iriquois fellow you met, who was

bad mouthing the missionaries, and all that, in Tallahassee that time,

rememebr that uh...bemqn Logan is who it was.

S: Oh...Bemqn Logan...yeah.


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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





I: He was blasting the churches, and your feelings about that, if you'd...?

S: Now let me tell you how I met Semon Logan. Uh...I attended, last...it

was in uh...in last March I guess it was...or was it April...I don't

know, but it was a cold day in Tallahassee. Uh...the Creeks had been

invited down there to uh...there was a group in Tallahassee who had

uh...gotten together...uh...several people, and they were Creeks, and

uh...they wanted to start uh...the...a movement in the Tallahassee area.

So we were invited down, and I went down to uh...Tallahassee with them.

And uh...uh...at this particular meeting, Chief Beman Logan, who's uh...of

the Iriquois Nation, of New York) ie's from Seneca, New York .)was there.

Now I had met Beman Logan...uh...one year...February...last February, it

was a year ago...at a conference I attendedrin.Boston. The purpose of this

conference...uh...some /astern Indians...had uh...uh...through various

trade papers, and what have you, they had been uh...various Indian groups,

or bands as some are referred to...of $astern Indians. They had been

listed as living in different uh...parts of the eastern United States.

And uh...they had uh...these particular people that organized the

conference in Boston...well, they invited the Creek Indians to participate.

Mainly because they had heard of Calvin McGhee's name was listed in

Washington with the...it was listed with the Bureau of Indian Affairs,

and others as...uh...he was listed as Chief of the Creeks in Alabama. So

they invited...uh...delegates from the Creek...uh...Creek community to

come and participate in this conference. Well uh...the,-.our...uh, there

was also some funding available, but they could only provide funds for

17













SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ,vone representative. So myself and another council member...uh...

attended this conference with our chief, Houston McGhee, at our own

expense. And it was at this conference that I met Beman Logan. And

he uh...told about uh...his work among the Indian people in general.

And uh...uh...uh...his uh...confrontations he had had with the...the

delegates from New York, and the Congress, and the uh...House of

Representatives, and uh the senate, and his various uh...other activities

involving Indians...he said all the Indians...representation of all the

Indians...uh...in Washington. And his traveling through the west with

this Indian...uh...movement...to revitalize, and bring about the...the

uh...religious movement within the uh...Indian himself. Uh...and it was,

like I say, in Boston that I met him. Well, a year later, he:was invited,

as...as I was, to Tallahassee, and it was at this particular conference

that uh...uh, he began...he was...he was invited there, and he was given

the opportunity to expound more upon his uh...uh...feelings about uh...

uh...various aspects of the...the Indian, as far as...uh...economic,

economics, social...uh...life as the effect...the different people,

such as uh...missionaries, and what have you...who had come to the

various Indian groups to really uh...supposec to minister to them, that

had really just taken,in their teachings had just taken the life-style

of the Indian...uh...just the very roots right out from under him. Now,

I listened to him uh speak, and right away I had...I felt...I felt bitter,

and I was bitter. Because of this one fact...here I was, a young man, who


18












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: jsyhad all my life, to what I am today...I have to think that...I have

to attribute to...uh...to some form of uh...religious teachings through

a missionary. Now...as...uh...I...I'm an Episcopalian. I was born, baptised,

and am an active member of the Episcopal church. And I'm very happy to

be a part of it. And uh...I would think that uh...and hope that hu...

because I believe in that particular church and all, that uh...my life

should be...continue to be a part of that teaching. But getting back

to...here was a man who says...he was an Indian...full-blooded Indian,

and he was attacking something that had meant so much to me, and in my

own way...uh...is...I felt like it was...in that movement...was responsible

for me being...or having had the opportunity to be what I was. And I

didn't exactly appreciate it. Because...all my life I had been...I had

been taught and told...I was an Indian...I was a Creek Indian. But to

what degree...I was never really...excuse me...uh told uh...all I knew

was we were In/dian. I...my mother was Indian...my father was Indian.

Whether...I know my mother wasn't full blooded, but my father...as far

as from what uh...uh...geneology and research that's been done...uh...he

...the he was probably full-blood. But I know most definitely so my...I

know my mother's side, her father was uh...her grandfather was a white

man...Englishman. And uh...here was a situation where...like I say...

having grown up. All my life :,I've...as I said...I was told I was an

Indian, I lived as an Indian, I was in a community...I lived in a

community that was Indian, and to me as far as I knew, and of...uh...

from what I could read...our life-style was quite different from the

19














SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: X vWestern Indian. We didn't live or have...uh...I hadn't heard the...any

Indian language. I was not able to...I had no really customs...uh...or

uh...as...we didn't have any crafts as such or anything, or make any crafts,

or have any arts and crafts or anything to speak of. Mainly our life-style

was that we were living...we just lived as Indians...in a community.

And uh...myself, I don't...I know of any...areas or any times that I was

ever...there was segregation...or segregated against. But I know from

earlier stories, and uh,.from what I could see just from going into town,

that there were those that were segregated against. Because they were,

some of them were dark...here in my situation...I have a lighter skin.

This wasn't that problem...I wasn't confronted with this. But getting back

to...he was a...the chief...Beman Logan...he was again...an individual

who was attacking my very existence. So this is why...I...I just didn't

understand, and I didn't feel that uh...all the work that the missionaries

uh........hed done...and certainly not in our case...was all uh...in

vain. And...and in our situation...it very...it meant the very difference

in our life. And in mine in particular. And I...I...I'm thankful. And

I appreciate the fact that we were accorded that opportunity. And I

appre...I'm thankful to the church...that they had people who were interested

enough to come, and live, and work, in our community. And to...to uh...work

and minister to the Indians...not only uh...in the uh...the...uh...church

type work, but to...for the social and uh...economic standpoint...to give

them an opportunity to really emphasize and teach them, in order for them


20













SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES






S: ...to really...for their life to become...uh for them to have any mean-

ing...it had to...it was entirely up to them...whether or not he was an

Indian or Negro or anything. Life was only...uh...what you made of it.

Now being in the situation that we were in...this of course did make some

difference. Uh...for uh...uh...our...uh...in the environment that we

lived in, and all, there's a...uh...in order for uh...uh...an Indian,

uh...to really, in that community, to really afford himself any opportun-

ities...uh...heihad to uh...really...leave the community. Because as...

and...

I: How far?

S: Fifty miles away you could go...to Mobile and Pensacola. It was...nobody

ever questioned what you were or anything. Uh...and that is why...I think

we have uh...the migration into these two cities that we do have. Because

of the fact it was just an opportunity. They weren't stereotyped, or uh,

or anything...or classified as to being...uh...because of his race. He

was afforded that opportunity.

I: Excuse me just a minute...do you remember your parents...or other older

people talking about the times before the missionaries came?

S: As far as their lifestyle and what have you?

I: Yes.

S: Yes I can...uh...I remember...of course...uh...here again, uh...I say

yes and no because so much of this...you know, the...

I: Really what I'm getting at is...is as a child...were you...was it ever


21












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





I: ...held up to you as a kind of contrast...of this is how bad things were

before the church came...or was it not a consideration at all?

S: Now...in our...here again...uh...uh...in our situation, uh...my

father, I have to refer to him again, because of his contact with the

people in the church, and his havingbeen able to move around within

the state with these people...uh...I think mainly...uh...there wasn't

any uh...contrast or anything...it was just the fact that he was just

facing...uh...life as it was, and seeing the importance of uh...an

education, or, you know, for just...to really for your own lifestyle.

If you wanted to really have the better things, you know.

I: I know for example he's on a number of occasions has talked with me about

how...one of the good things that r did when they first came...












END SIDE ONE














22











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES

TAPE: A; SIDE: TWO.





I: The question I just asked at the end of the other side was uh...

whether as Buford's father has told me before about how when the Macys

first came...that they did a lot of medical work for people. Uh...

whether he had talked about that to...whether uh...Buford's father had

talked about that to his children or not, and Buford said....

S: No...I don't recall...remember...really ever hearing them make any

contrast or comparison to the earlier childhood...other than they did

just relate...uh...how uh...different stories about, you know, of

just uh...how hard it was for them. And uh...being neglected of this

medical attention...and...and all that uh...and schooling...and this

thing that they didn't have the opportunity to uh...take part in. And

uh...but mainly I remember...uh...as uh...them telling the stories of

the work that they had done there.

I: The Macys?

S: The Macys had done...you.know...in the medical treatment, and the

schooling...and uh...just how important that was. And uh...uh this type

thing that uh...is...I... just don't ever recall any earlier stories.

I: Now the main ...uh... church workers when you were growing up were Father

Mercal...

S: Right...yes.

I: Preacher Mercal...or Reverend Mercal..
"-7
S: Reverend Mercal.


23












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES






I: How...what was he usually called in the...?

S: Well...Mr. Mercal.

I: Mr. Mercal...um huh.

S: Mr. Mercal.

I: And Ms. Bradshaw?

S: Now Ms. Bradshaw and them...they came in the fifties you see. They...Ms.

Bradshaw was when I first...uh...she and Estell Warren were the first

two ladies that came down from Birmingham...were the Bible School teachers.

Uh...you see, in the earl...in the... well, 19...in1929, when the church

was first established there...they didn't only build a church there at

St. Annes...but there was St. Johns of the Wilderness that was built, and

right now where the present Holiness church is located...there was an

Episcopal church there...St. Johns in the Wilderness. And that house that

Alton Jackson used to live in...the lumber from that house was...he

purchased frem the church...sold that to him when it was torn down....

I: St. Johns was torn down?

S: St. Johns was torn down, and he brought and built that home.

I: As a child did you ever go to Holiness church services at all?

S: I did.

I: You did?

S: I did, and one of the most...uh...uh...fantastic experiences I ever had

in my life, and was...I'll never forget as long as I live...and uh...was,

of course if you are familiar with the Holiness religion...as you know,


24












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ,^.they have these terms that uh...people that uh...to shout and carry

in the wind...I can remember as a child...even though we attended the

Episcopal church and all...uh...it was just common, you know, this was

someplace to go. And if there were other churches and all...it was...we

visited. And uh...I was an Episcopalian...and that's just like when the

Menonites came in, you know, I was an Episcopalian...I attended Menonite

services. I attended Baptist services...no big thing, you know, it...it

was just something to do...somewhere to go. Uh...uh we didn't really have

any activities, or uh...as such in the community...uh...other than uh...

uh...any organized athletics or anything...it was by...by no means...if

we had a softball game or something...it was just uh...some...there's a

bunch of boys we got together...or...uh...our own...as far as having toys

and this thing...it really depended on your own creativity. If you could

create something to uh...I can remember...we used to take and cut down a

tree...and take a large uh...board...and...you know...make a seesaw.

this type thing...or a "'lying inny"...we used to call this thing.

I: What's a "Ilying Oinny" ?

S: Uh...well, it was...actually...you get this board, you know, and you...

they get to pushing you around this thing...this I think is how the term
;L f, L&
"plying pinny"...if I remember correctly...but you....

I: But it's basically constructed like a seesaw...except you'd go around

and around and up and down?

S: Yeah...around and around...yeah...up and down. And uh...now...but relating

this experience with-the.Holiness church...uh...I never will forget this.

25












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: I don't know...I think...uh...as just a child, when I could...I was very

inquisitive, and I found myself in the beginning of the service seated on

the...this front pew. And there was a little church...it's little

Holiness church...now here........actually...where uh...or somewhere

right in that area...where Edgar Reichards lives now...there used to be

a little Holiness church in there...just a little one room building.

And they had the...they called it uh...uh...I...I don't know if they

called it the altar...anyway it was a raised area...and they had these

railings around it when they had the prayers, you know...they would go

there and pray...but this one lady...she got to shouting...and she just

...the next thing I know...she was in my lap...and I thought the woman

had died. And I was never so horrified in all my life. And that's one

experience that I think I'll always...uh...really remember about the

Holiness church and the religion. And uh...of course...our teachings in

our church were...we were taught...uh...just what uh...uh...well we were

teased...uh...because we had a prayer book, and we had this formal service

that veryone...uh.. .could participate in. It wasn't the uh...type of...uh,

uh...service, church service, that these people projected, you know, where

they just had these preachers that'd come and just read a passage from

the Bible. And...and you know...just preach and expound from that. And

this is...I guess more or less...from what I have seen, and recognized

from the Holiness churches...uh...they...of course they would have the

singing, then they would have the preach...you know, reading from the

Bible, and &;eprcad and what have you. Then they...of course during

26











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ...these...uh...uh...preachings...uh...a lot of times the people

would get to shouting and what have you. And that was the

occasion for this lady.

I: She passed out in your lap?

S: She passed out in my lap. I don't know wh...I... think I might

have fainted also...but it was an:experience I'll remember.

I: Other than going to church over there...did you ever just go over

and play with kids in Eaot Switch or did you stay pretty much
cVacA o0 pr-d0rda
around Hedapdda-?

S: We stayed pretty much at home. You know...it's a funny thing, that

uh...maybe it was because we just didn't uh...uh...have the means

of...of modern day transportation and communication...but even

in our own community...uh...we...we were just sort of...uh...we

were Indians here...and those were those Indians over there.

I: Um huh.

S: And do you know the strangest thing about it...as I grew older,

I found out that this was my very own relatives...my dad's folks

that lived there. And here they were to be such strangers. I

couldn't figure that out. And I used to think...well now my

goodness...and uh...so often I'd go ask my daddy...I said...daddy,

why in the world...I said-that's your sisters and all that live

out there. And we just never...I knew that Aunt Molly and Uncle

Dave lived out there, and that was about it. But we really never

socialized with them any. We just lived in the community.

27












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





I: What about your mother's people?

S: My mother's sister...one...well...there was Aunt Florence. Aunt

Florence I was very familiar with, but she had a brother. She had
UJa-LL
a brother that lived in Mobile. Bat actually the two brothers...

one was a merchant marine, merchant seaman, and he shipped all

the time. And I saw him occasionally throughout...when he'd come

home, you know, he'd come and visit. And then the sister that

lived in Pensacola. And uh...that was about it. And as far as her

family...now on...in my...uh...situation...I never saw a single

grandparent from either side of my...uh...my mother or father. I

came just shortly after they had all died. And uh...I...I think

more...if I could say that there...if there was anyone person, uh

that was in that community with something of the stature that you

would classify a person as a grandparent...uh...and she was

certainly...I think she was a I4od other...to me...could have uh,

I would think...uh...Dan McGhee's wife, LenAa. tUh...Lenpla was like

a mother to me. I just...I don't know...she was just...sort of...

uh...I don't know...it was just uh...that I ...how...I can't really

say how I became so attached to her. But I....I remem...uh...in my

early teens, you know...of course...uh...my late teens, she died.

But I...I really became attached to her. Now...I just sort of...

just as a second mother. You know another lady that I...I really

became very close to and fond of...and perhaps uh...was Clara Rolin.

Uh Clara was more just...like I say...if...even though she wasn't


28












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ,otthat old...If I would...just like...you know...it was just some-

body I knew that just...I felt like that had that special love and

feeling for me...and they was always...seemed so interested in

what I was doing.

I: When you were a teenager did they live...did those people...uh...

Dah McGhee and Clara Rolin live in the place that they live in now?

S: Uh...

I: Or live in more or less that area?

S: General area...yes...uh huh. Uh...they at one time...you see,

Dan and Lentia...up until Lenaa's death...well and after...uh...

Hatty Mae and Halford lived with Dan. And they were still care-

takers there. Uh...but Len/a and Dan came to live in the caretaker's

home. after momma and daddy...when we bought the farm...uh...excuse

me.

I: Speaking of that area...uh...is there...as long as you can

remember...has there always been a store where Calley's store is

now?

S: No. That store I would say...has probably been the...in the early

1960s...and the late '50s.

I: And it was MiAe McGhee that originally built the store?

S: .Mi-le McGhee. And it was one little building. And out of one little,

when he first begun that...it was one little building. And uh...he

enlarged it...added another room and of course he still kept the

one building. And then of course...and as he passed away...uh...

29











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ...uh...Martha continued to operate it...and then she later

remarried and made it into the...the grocery store that it is

today.

I: Had there been any store in the community-before that?

S: Well I...not in our area...but out there at...now at Porch...across

from the Holiness church...there was Riley McGhee, you know, had

that little ol'....
(He^J o-C Perdi o
I: Oh...his store is older than the one in Hedapedeeda?

S: I think so...I'm sure it is. Riley had that little store out

there and all...but, you see, you know, like I say now...here I grew

...really I guess to...to really see these people...uh...in...in

Porch community...really...actually know them more...uh...as,

as uh...I began to...was the fact that our school bus traveled

through there...you see...going...

I: When you started going to Atfmore?

S: Going to Atfmore to school.

I: Uh huh.

S: Now...of course the children were from...uh...bussed from there

up to the school. And I...and I got to know them...

I: You knew them in school...but then they went home...or,..?

S: And that was it...about it.

I: Uh huh.

S: And then of course during the harveq seasons we would see them, but

you know, even at that...when we would go and pick that cotton, I

30












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ...remember this so well, uh...they were still...they were just

...there was their little group, and we were our...0h! ah...when

we socialized...I always...and...and I remember we'd...in this

cotton fields we'd go and pick the cotton...lunch time was a big

affair. Everybody...we'd go out into the woods there, and if you

hadn't brought a lunch, you know, you'd stop by the store...and

you always picked up...uh...cokes and what have you...and this

was just sort of, you know, you mingled and mixed and...and saw

each other. But other than that...very...really the only times

you really ever got to see anyone is at funerals and this type

thing. I always....

I: Those funerals would bring people together always?

S: People together. And now your...your dinners on the grounds, and

this type thing...now this would really...uh...it would bring the

people together. And uh...uh...we uh...I guess as far as to really

mix with the people or anything... Did you know...uh...that's why

...I would...as you...probably in your travels there...and those

people that you have met in the Pensacola area...you...you'll meet

...uh some people who are Creek Indians. If you were to mention

some of the names of those people living today...just...would be

news to them...they wouldn't know who they were. And here they

could be...might have been...I would say as close of kin as first

or second cousins. They just never really...they adapted their own

lifestyle where they were living, and had their friends...and, and

that was it. 31









SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





I: Now...it would seem to me that this ,Iand claims Money might have

been something that got people getting to know each other better

too at those meetings. Do you remember, as a child, going to

some of those early mass meetings?

S: Back in the early '50s...I remember that...yes. Uh...when this,

this thing...you see I was...back in 19...uh...let's see...I

started school...well it was in...1950. Now Mrs. Grace K. Mays,

who is still living in...uh...in Atfmore...uh...I... I..she

taught me for two years...fifth and sixth grade. And uh...she

uh...of course as...in later years...and I'm sure as...in my...that

I heard about it...But uh...of course...but...as a child this

didn't mean anything. But as I grew older I began to understand

things more. Uh...I could see the...uh...I was told again, that

uh...she was the one responsible for this Indian Claims Case ever

materializing. And uh...and I...I can remember attending some of

those meetings. And uh...

I: What did kids do when their parents were having meet...did you all

sit in on the meetings...did you go outside and play or what?

S: Yeah...we kust played...that was it. I mean they had a meeting,

just uh...uh...maybe Calvin was uh...I remember...probably...uh,

now this would...uh...you'd have to...really for this thing...

even though it got started in the early fifties...really I think,

probably...it was in my teens that I really...uh...uh...got to

uh...as far as seeing Indians grouped together for...in something

other than a funeral...or a...uh...they used to refer to it at those

32











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ,i(qHoliness churches.. as fifth Sunday meetings and things like

that.

I: Um huh.

S: Uh...but uh...really I uh...now here again...let me tell you a

situation that uh...another time...a focal time that we got

together...was at Christmas. Now in our church...in the Episcopal

church...we always had the Christmas party. This included speeches

by the children, the singing of the carrols, and doing the Christmas

Story. This...to me...uh...uh, this is...as I can remember from a

child, this is what Christmas was. We never knew what it was to,

to uh...have the...a Christmas tree, or...in my earlier childhood.

Uh...that was Christmas. We had this great big huge tree in that

church, and we decorated. We had this Christmas party and all, and

that was Christmas. The...the toys...uh...and uh...candy, and apple

and oranges were sent in for the Indians. And various toys...and

were given...and this was Christmas. Uh...my very...I guess the

very most special thing that I can ever remember getting at

Christmas time...was made...I must have been around fourteen years

of age...and uh...this time record players, the little small record

players, well...were...uh were begin...becoming very popular. And

my sister...I had uh...uh...she at this time...even though she was

married...she didn't have children...

I: It was Leola?

S: Leola...this was Leola, she's...of course she's passed away now.

33










SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES







S: Uh...but...uh...with Jack, her husband being in various veteran's

hospitals having recoverage from tuberculosis and surgery and

things that uh...he had contacted from the war...she traveled to,

I remember...Kentucky, Memphis, Tennessee, uh...different areas,

uh Montgomery, where he was hospitalized. And uh...I never made

any of those trips-withher or anything, but uh...uh...I don't

know, this is sort of...at least I had some member in my family

was, you know, at least moving around, and being exposed. This

was a high point to me, this, in my life time, I...I can remember

that too. Uh...but...uh...this particular time, I never will

forget...uh...Leola had uh...she had...she was home, and I just

don't remember whether Jack was at...he was...I think he was at

Wontgomery. And she came home, and I had been, you know, I just

heard talk, and we had the radio, and all the talk of these

record players. And I had...it was getting close to Christmas,

and I said I would like to have one of those record players. And

she got me that record player. Now...we had had, at the church,

St. Anna's Church, uh...I don't know how we came about it, but we'd

had a record player. Now...and I think really that's where I...I

got to become aquainted with the record player and what have you.

Then again...uh Ms. Mays, in the fifth and sixth grade, she always

had the...she had this old record player.

I: Um huh.


34











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: And she...it was the old wind-up type you know...and she used to

play some little marches and things for us you know. And uh...uh,

really, we just were never...after we started going into the

public schools like this...uh...uh...I say public schools, I

really should correct myself there, that's all I actually knew,

was public school .

I: Yeah.

S: Uh...but we were never really taught...uh...uh...that we were

any different, even though we were Indian, we were just taught

that...that...what the state of Alabama had set down as the...the

format for education. The...we had the basics, readingwriting,

arithmetic, and this type thing, you know, and uh...the basic

st/dies...and your social studies and what have you. But uh...I

had always...I can remember saying I wanted that record player.

And she got me that record player. And uh...as far as I...to

really associate the something...or to...getting a gift at

Christmas...that's the one thing that I remember most...other

than at the...the play...a Christmas play at our church. Did

you know...uh...we...we always looked forward to that time of year.

And we would walk from home. We would get in from school...we

would do whatever work or chores we had to do...and we would walk

to that church...and rehearse that play until it was...and my

sister Leola directed it...and...uh...we would rehearse that play,

and sing those carrols...and all of that 'til...leading up to


35











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: 6\/.that night. That night...it was referred to always as that night,

that night, you know...and you go...you know...when...now this is

the way we...now you don't want to come out here and do a little

sloppy old speech, you know, like...like you're saying it now...

now remember that night...you know...that's the big performance,

you know...this has got to be perfect for that. So uh...we always

would rehearse...and we would walk back and forth. Until...and...uh,

then Leola and Jack, after they came back, and Jack was able, they

had an old pick up truck. She used to...we could walk up there,

but she...she managed to deliver us all that night...back home,

you know, in that old pick up truck.

I: But at the Christmas...on that night...then people would come

from all the different areas?

S: The communities...yeah...from...and to see the play. Yes...this

was a big performance...I mean...

I: Were there ever any children in the play...who were not Episcopal

children?

S: Yes...in the later years. Now some of the girls from out at
a
Porch...uh...I remember...Annabelle McGhee...and uh...uh...well,
4-r--) -,1 7 41p-)
the DougheEees...Houston...see Houston, and Emma Genne DoughetF"e,

and Charles...now they lived out at Porch...but that was Dan's,

Inez and Adam Doughtee....Inez was Dan's daughter you see. And uh,

Adam...having worked in the pulpwood and all at one time, he had

his own pulpwood truck...then during the potato season and the

36












SUBJECT: BUFOED ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: (\Ocotton season...see he did have transportation.

I: Um huh.

S: So...uh...I would say in my later teen years...uh...we started to

really...uh....to really socialize with one another, and become

familiar...and here again like I say though...I think probably

just traveling through that community everyday on that bus...back

and forth, and seeing the people and all...really I got to...to

see them more than I ever really did...and...at any other time of

the year.

I: Tell.....uh...tell me a little bit about...uh...I know you have

before, but uh...talk a little bit about what it was like when you

...among the first to go into high school in Atimore...what it was

like in the early days of... dians being bussed into At/more.

S: Well...in my...my first year...uh...when I went into seventh grade,

uh...uh...into Atfmore...here again..I...I have to keep...I have

to refer back to...I...there were Episcopalians who lived in town,

who had at one time or another...had...came out to St. Anna's.

And uh...I suppose that when it...it really...the town folk really

realized that it had to be...and the Indians were going to be

bussed into town. Uh...uh...they uh...I can't really say that this

was their reason for doing it. But uh....because of the fact too

that some of our teachers who had come from town, into the

grammar school...now this was after I had left there, and was

beginning to be bussed into town. They had uh...come from town.

37











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES




4-1
S: Th = r^ i aji no.oui..I remember Mrs. Broek, and Mrs. Williams.

Now Mrs. Broek's son...he and I were classjmates...from seventh
A
grade through high school. Uh...and uh...uh...but I...I guess

just that uh...they had...they had uh...realized and begun to...to

know that they were going to have to accept...and...and through

Mr. Mercal...uh...and...there was some of the uh...uh...the

uh...people in town who attended the church there who had made

visits out there, and then through contact with the uh...my

folks going into town had got to know them. And uh...I remember

that there was some...uh...children of Episcopal families in town,

uh that I had seen, you know, and uh...and they were very friendly

to me when I first went into the...and continued to be.

I: You'd seen them when you'd gone to church in town or they'd come

to your church?

S: No...well, we didn't visit that much in the churches...maybe I'd

go into town, and I would see them.

I: Uh huh.

S: I don't really ever recall attending any services in town, until

after...uh...I was in...uh...I guess junior high school. And the

first time I really actually ever remember going into Trinity church

in town...was I participated in Old World Day Prayer Program. I did,

I read for them...the Indian version, now who wrote this I

don't .ow...the Lord's Prayer.

I: That's the first time you went to Trinity?

38












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Uh...yes...there at Trinity church that I can remember in town.

And this was a Friday, World Day of Prayer Service.

I: Were you the only Indian that/went in that time?

S: This particular time that...yes. And I came from school.
Is r -e I(?)
Mrs. Britell came over and picked me up from school, and brought

me over to Trinity church. And uh...I participated in that program

that they...

I: Because you were an Indian?

S: Yeah...they had wanted one of the Indian children to do th, .--

I: And how old were you at that time?

S: I must have benn twelve or thirteen. I was in seventh or eighth

grade. And uh...I don't know...but as far as...uh...as...as...after

going into high school in town...as myself...you see I can remember

even that my sister...and uh...my sisters and my brother...you see

I never attended school in McCulough...

I: Um huh.

S: Now the Indians were just slightly...they were just...were not

they went there but they were...uh...they weren't wanted. I had

often thought, you know, and I said when it came time for me to,

to leave that school there at Porch...if I would be confronted

with this...knowing that I was going to have to attend school

where I wasn't wanted...and I was so thankful that that year...

when...my last year there...maybe it was a couple of years...uh

maybe it was in fifth grade...they discontinued that up there...at

39













SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: -McCulough...the school there. And they started bussing those

students in town.

I: Well before the Indian children had been bussed to McCujough and

At/more...or just McCulough?

S: Well now some of them I understand had went to...up in that area

there they went to McCulough...

I: Um huh.

S: And...uh...I think...and some of Calvin's children...and down in

that area were going into town. But I know I...the students in our

area...they were bussed to McCulpugh.

I: McCulough ?

S: Um huh...up to that...well it just had...uh...from uh...grades one

through nine there. Then to finish your education you had to go

into town...to Atfmore...to do... And...I know my...now my sister

Bessie...who lives in Mobile...now she uh...I think she completed

the eighth grade. And uh...or maybe it was...she might...I'm sure

it was eighth grade in McCulough. Now my sister Lottie...now she

com...she uh...the eleventh grade...but she went into town.



xShe rode the bus into town. But she just got married, you know,

gave up school and got married. And uh...same was the case...now

I think Bessie just quit school because she just...uh...not living

under pressure...not being wanted and what have you... think uh,

40













SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: "Ifprobably it was one of the reasons that she wasn't interested

in completing...

I: I've heard this about McCulough a lot. Do you have any ideas that

you've come up with that explain why Indian children weren't as

well received at McCulough as they were in At/more?

S: Uh...the...you know...I have often wondered about this...and I've

heard uh...different uh...uh...reasons for it. Now another thing

uh...uh...that...we had to be...uh...I think if it was one...uh...

one single incident or situation that could uh...distinctly...uh...

separated our...the two communities...was the fact that now...over

in the Hog Fork area and the P rch area...well ------ -- you

know, you had your State Farm...and I....

I: State Prison Farm?

S: State Prison Farm...and a lot of those people over there were

just associated...uh..uh...with those uh...trustee prisoners, and

things like this. And in some cases even married to them. And some

of the wives...women had children...illtgitimate children...because

of these people. And of course you know how the stories go back

and forth and...like I say...here we...we felt, in our community,

we just didn't want any part of that. I mean...when the...when the

prisoners ran...oh that was...we were just fearful...

I: Um huh.

S: Because we just thought every man in prison was a...a convicted

41













SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: MpMmurderer...uh you know...and they were just out to kill

everybody...

I: Yeah.

S: And uh...uh...uh I remember a situation back uh...uh...one time

during the practicing of the Christmas Program...uh...we went into

the...the church, St. Anna's Church. We opened the door...to

uh...uh...to the wood stove that was there to fill the fire...

and reached in there...and out come convict clothing. And we ran.

Well...that's all we...we just became fearful for our lives. And

did you know just that very day children...Jack DougheTIs daughter's

twins...Earling and Pearling had walked from over at the...where

the building that is adjoining St. Anna's Church...right now, which

is our parish house...used to be the school that was over across

the pond there. They had wa d through that pond...there used to

be just a trail through there...they had walked through that pond

and they had seen those men in St. Anna's Church. Two men...and

they thought it was my dad and Dan McGhee...and they had waved to

them...as they walked by...that afternoon. And here we were in

there that night and they had uh...at that time there used to be

a building out there. You see the women used to...the can...uh...all

of these vegetables and things, and kept them in this building out

there. Because they used to cook...you see they had the cook room

and all for the school. They had...they cooked those hot lunches

42












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: .and all over there...and all. And there was all of these...uh...I

remember black berries...all of these different...uh...tomatoes,

and vegetables that they had canned. But to us...I mean...maybe

that was one...uh...way even...ourselves...we as our own community

we just...you know...felt like...well...it was just...we didn't...

just didn't do that...you know...

I: Um huh.

S: And so...actually we just sort of...had that...the difference among

us...and we...I was just always...felt like...and...and it's still

uh...you hear it occassionaly...those people are just different

from us...you know. And here they were Indians too...you know.

And often times I think now as involved as I am in the work for

the Indians...all the...how could I think about that now. Uh, you

know I wonder some...so many times I'd heard that...they're just

different from us. And when you start...when you start to...to

really compare the lifestyle of the three different communities...as

you start...you can really see the differences that really were

among us then...that made them...almost three# separate communities.

I: What are those in your opinion?

S: Well...I...I think probably...mostly in...now uh...here again you

get your church involved...again. And uh...you see...uh...one of

the...uh...as uh...I was growing up and what have you, and uh...

uh...my uh...uh...teenage years...I used to have........uh...I...we

were permitted ...the parish house at the church...we could have

43














SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES






S: ...uh...uh, I use to have little dances and all there...you know.
n
And I was criticised...oh...growing boy...

I: Dancing was sinful?

S: Yeah...very sinful. No kind of activities...none what so ever...and

I just sort of took it on myself, you know, to have these little...

we'd have these little dances and all...just some way for us to

socialize...and all...and boy that was... The...hear again...uh

you see uh...this was at the time my...uh...the later years too...

that uh...we'd become...we was introduced to the rock and roll era

of music. And you was hearing this...we all had radios and things,

and...and uh...forty-five records you know were out then.

I: While you were like in High school?

S: High school...yes...yeah...this was...you know...all the...

I: Do you remember the first radio your family had....or was there

always a radio in your house?

S: Oh yes! There was...I can remember...the old box type with the

batteries. We used to run a atenv...had this big...uh two...you

used to just take...go out into the woods and cut down these...just

Black Jack oaks. Small...probably an inch and a quarter or two

inches and three inch...and we'd take a...a wire...and put up there,

and run into the house. And you bought these dry cell batteries,

and...and....

I: That was before you all had electricity?

44













SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Yes...before...oh I can...well yes...we...we had lamps and all.

I: Do you remember a time when your family didn't have a radio?

S: Uh...or was there...a time...the earliest you can remember...was

there...?

S: From the earliest I can remember we always had a radio. Uh...I

can remember my dad uh...listening at the ball games.

I: Um huh.

S: The St. Louis Cardinals...baseball.

I: Getting back to the school thing now...did you have...did you feel
td of- Pet-clido
like when you went to school in Atfmore...coming from Hedaped-eeda
a
or Porch...did you feel like you encountered any prejudice at all

as an Indian...when you went to school?

S: Uh...no...

I: Yourself personally?

S: Myself? None I don't...here again...uh I uh...people...the, you

know, occasionally you know your going to...with children...uh...it

was uh...uh...it was mentioned, you know...I can remember just

hearing some of the snickering in the back and this type thing. But

as far as myself...uh...really...uh...any real problem...I really

don't uh...recall it.

I: Almost to the end of this tape, and I wanted to ask you this

question from earlier tonight. You...said that frequently...you

say to...people don't be bitter...that you grew up through that,

you know what it was like...but don't be bitter.
45












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER::PAREDES





I: Could you expound on that a little bit...what you mean by that?

S: Uh...here...as I said earlier...uh...there's so many things

that uh...are, you know...to use an ex...one of the...a good

example...like uh...is uh...well, we have to...the Indians Claims

Case. And...and uh...I...I feel like when uh...I see someone, and

he makes mention of the fact that he got his $112.13, and now

he's so proud of that. I...sometimes I felt like probably I

wanted to look back and...and uh...feel that...well, where were

you during the struggle. Where were you? But...and...if...if I

became...if uh...and I...I think I was bitter. I really was.

Because of this. But I feel now...in order for me....

I: This struggle...now what struggle do you mean?

S: When I say struggle I mean actually living the life in the

community as an Indian....

I: Yeah...uh huh...uh huh.

S: A Creek Indian you see...and here we were...here I was in a

community. And where we were known as Indians and lived as Indians.

But uh...because the fact that...uh...this particular individual's

parents had an opportunity to go away...get away, and to make the

life better for the...I don't think that uh...I have the right...to

really feel bitter to them because they were active...or...or grew

up in the lifestyle and all that I did. And...uh...I think it uh...

one of the...the easiest things that there is for uh...for us to

do...is to feel...or to (ve our prejudice against one another

46














SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Ajffor that. And it's...and it's definitely the wrong attitude to

take.

I: Have you ever yourself felt bitter towards white people?

S: Uh...not that I can recall. But uh...now...here again I guess it's

just from...I don't think my...uh...my...my mother and father

ever taught me to hate anyone. They never did. But my mother,

I still...she...she...she always taught...whether he's black or

white or yellow...God says...God loves us all. We're all God's

children. We have to love one another. And some of the...I guess

the most...uh...friendliest relationships I had...with the colored

people at all...is...you know...working with them on our farm. They

worked together...well on that forty acres...gathering of those

crops...and all.

I: Yet...yet you said you were...as a child...in lower grades...you

were concerned about the possibility of going to a school where

you weren't wanted.

S: Right...yeah...yeah. Because...that was the situation up at the

school....




END TAPE A, SIDE TWO.








47










CRK 38AB

SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES

TAPE: B, SIDE: ONE













I: Tape two...Buford Rolin...tape two. Twenty-three. Buford could

you begon by talking about the circumstances under which you

ended up going into the military?

S: Uh...yes...in 19...after I graduated from high school in 1958,

uh...in the fall I went to college...uh it was known as Monte...

uh...Alabama College at Montevallo...Alabama...in which I stayed

until 1959...spring. And then I came home and I just decided

I had enough education. And uh...I decided I wanted to get out

and earn my million. And...I haven't made it yet. Uh...but uh,

I took various jobs...and uh...not the jobs...I actually went

back home...and...and worked...these uh...different uh...uh,

seasonal jobs there...until uh...uh...or it was the summer, well,

it was one or two...it was in the early summer I guess it was.

Uh...it was late summer really. These relatives that lived in

Pensacola were up visiting...and uh...they had been up several

times before, and you know...asked me to...you know...to come to

Pensacola, and see about uh...finding employment down here. I

wasn't too eager, but I said well, what the heck...you know. So

I came with them. Packed a bag and came to Pensacola. And this


48












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ...uh...relative's husband...uh...knew this contractor...was in

business...and he just spoke in my behalf, and told him I needed

a job, and asked him...uh...if he could work. And he told him

what training I had. So I went over and was interviewed, and

took the job and worked for...oh I guess it was from...let's see,

September through March of the following year...which was 1960.

At that time...uh...they just decided that they didn't need a

second man in the office, and uh...uh...so I was let go. And

uh...from there I went over to Mobile, and took a job with the

International Paper Company. And uh...which was about uh...uh...

probably the worst job I've ever had...simply because it was not

uh...steady employment. It worked two or three weeks, and you was

off four or five weeks...and you never really knew what shift you

were going to work. And uh...uh...I just wasn't satisfied with it

all. The money...when you worked, you made good money. Which was

good, but during this time...uh...this friend of mine, and myself,

we decided... He...at the...he had alre...he was in the National

Gaurd, and he had missed so many National Gaurd meetings and what

have you. It was at the...the time was pressing for him, and he

knew sooner or later he was going to be drafted. So in uh...January

of '61...he and I went up to the Brewton Court House, and...to

volunteer for the draft. This was in January. And I remember very

specifically. The clerk says uh...Now gentlemen if you've come to

volunteer for the Army, you're in the wrong office. The Army

49










SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: V recruiters...in the post office down there. No sir...we came

to volunteer for the draft. Uh...he a second time advised us...

No...we came to volunteer for the draft. "O.k. if that's what you

want." Uh...but he said this is not a recruiting. So we said well

we just want to volunteer for the draft. We want to be drafted.

And he said, "O.k." And...and uh...that was in January, and in

May...I mean March...uh...received my uh...notification to go to

Montgomery for uh...late March...uh...to go to Montgomery for the

...the physical examination, and the testing. In May I was

Classified 1A, and eligible for draft, and uh...was uh...uh...

set up my...or was notified that uh...that uh...I would be...uh,

at a later date would be notified when I would be called into the

service. He didn't have the exact quota then as to what the draft

...they needed for the...the services. So in May...uh...late May,

I got my greetings...I was going to be inducted into the Army

July the twelfth, 1961. And uh,..I went to...left on July the

twelfth, 1961, and went to Montgomery, and was sworn in. And uh...

that's how I got into the Army.

I: During this time period in your life...did you...were you taking

any active part at all in the Indian activities, or the Claims Case,

or anything like that?

S: No...I wasn't. I only...the only thing that uh...at that time,

not being as certain as to...really what plans...uh...I...I just

wasn't sure what uh...whether or not I planned to stay in the

military and make a career, of it, or just what.

50













SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Uh...but uh...I was no more than just uh...in service...and uh,

doing a job as uh...being in the....

I: Well what did...how...how did you become to be on the council?

S: Uh...well...it was during these times...this time that I was in

service...at different times I'd...came home, and uh...you know,

I talked to my sister,-who was a member...uh...Leola. Uh...about

the activities, and uh...she kept telling...mentioning to me,

she said...uh.. .why,:.don't you get on the council...let me resign,

and you take my position. I said no...no that's not necessary,

and she said well...I...she said uh...I'm not doing...there's not

that much going on, and I'd be happy to resign, and ask them to

appoint you. And uh...that uh...went on I guess...perhaps for...

several uh...years...that...that, and with the conclusion of uh...

my uh...term in the service...and in 1966...I remember...well, I

got out of the Army in 1963, and I was working in Pensacola here.

Came to work in Pensacola, and uh...I was home one weekend, and

chieff McGhee approached me. At times he and I had discussed the

fact that uh...there should be...uh...he was interested in having

some younger people come into the council, and he discussed it

with me, and...in fact that he mentioned that ...uh...he'd also

talked to my sister. And uh...he'd like to know if I'd be interested

in becoming a member of the council. So...I said well...at the time,

there wasn't a whole lot involved, but I could see, just from talking


51













SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ...with him, that...that things were beginning to...were going to

happen. He was almost...uh...at...complety at this time...the

testimony.,.and all...had just about...I think he might of given...

uh...uh...he'd been to Washington for these last hearings, and uh,

uh...so...he...uh...uh...I was contacted again. And I said, well

yes, I'd be happy to serve. So uh...I met with him at the attorney's

office...in 1966.

I: At Rosell's ?

S: Lawyer Tucker's office.

I: Mr. Tucker?

S: Yeah...in Atfmore. That night I was installed as a new council

member. That same night...I wrote a check for fifty dollars. This

was to pay for the attorney's fees for going to Washington to

uh...uh...Mr. Tucker, and Mr. Rosell...were uh...uh...for some

work that they were doing in the Claim...the case had been

settled. But there was some...still some preliminary work and all

that had to be done, and the attorneys had to go and...uh...they

needed those attorneys there and what have you to...for the

settlement and all. And we had to send them. So each one of the

council members gave fifty dollars. And with Calvin I think it

was seven...we needed seven hundred and fifty dollars. We gave fifty

dollars each. Even Uncle Dave...poor old Uncle Dave.

I: Dave who?

52












SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Dave Presley, he's dead and gone. But he got...went to the bank

and borrowed fifty...the.....the money to give those attorneys.

And uh...uh...that was my introduction to the council. That was

the begirng.

I: Was this a common practice for council members to take money out

of their own pockets to finance things?

S: Ever since I've been a member of the council, I have pa d dearly

for...uh...uh...it's...it's been more ...uh...I have received no

compensation...none what so ever from the activities that I have

been involved in. I gave uh...the last...this particular...the

last claims case...and uh...uh...the last hearing, where Chief

McGhee went to Washington...uh...well, when he was called there

when uh...uh...Lawyer Thompson...Lenore Thompson, and claiming
;-
that was...uh...had applied for...uh...his expense account to be

payed out of this judgement. Something in the...uh...like $66,000.

I gave chief McGhee my credit cards. And he drove to Washington

on my credit cards...returned back...it was seventy something

dollars worth of...uh...gas bills that I payfd for that...myself.

Now this does...this doesn't count...doesn't take into consideration

the countless number of times...it's been five dollars here, and

five dollars there for different things. Different funds, and for,

for funds for him to attend...uh..uh...meetings and all in

Washington.


53













SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





I: How...how wide a spread do you think there's been in the community

generally? I've heard other people say that they gave a lot of

money...or gave money. Did a...or was there a pretty wide spread

donation of money for things like this?

S: Well, I don't think there was so much donation of money as there

was, you know, one of the things that we found 4eo...the people,

even though they didn't always have the cash money...th had a

means...this means being they would hold these chicken suppers and

things. If Chief McGhee said he needed to go to Washington, or he

needed funds to attend a...to Oklahoma...or different areas in

be half of this claims case, he would uh...hold a.meeting of the

people. And they would bring the food, and then buy it back...you

know. They would prepare it, and then to make up money for him to

make these trips. And you know...I...uh...I might of mentioned, you

know...I did...you talk about the bitter portion...this is why I

think...there is...there was that few that gave to this cause for

so many to have received...to have been in receipt of the benefits

of this case. And this is the one thing that uh...I'll always...uh,

feel that uh...uh...our people...uh...those that...home in general

I'll say...in the Atjmore area...in the community. We're the ones

that uh...provided the funds for Calvin. The general...the main funds,

for him in the...going to Washington and testifying at these...on

these claims cases. And...and going to Washington to uh...to get

54











SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: togetherr the...the information for proof of...uh...uh...

geneology on all the different Indians. To have those that live in

surrounding areas to have just...came in...and really the...probably

the most that they pafd...if any...and I...was the little uh...that

portion which he might have charged them for filling out any uh...

forms.

I: Well, what was the motivation for people to give this kind of service

and money?

S: Well, uh...we had heard...of course...here we were...giving this

uh...money...in behalf of this land claims case...with the idea...I

think most people went under the impression...you see...the older

people in general...that here was...uh...three and a half million

dollars...and it was going to be distributed among about eight

hundred people.

I: Um huh.

S: That's the most that they could see...was no more than the

community. Where as...uh...uh...we were talking about...when the

...the role was taken........when those government forms were

issued...there was something like forty nine thousand five hundred

applicants, who applied for...for uh...for part of this judgement.

I: So...back even in the sixties there were some people who thought

tWre -rit. be a pretty big return for the chicken suppers and

things that they were doing?



55














SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Oh yes! Yes...we...they thought that they would get at least several

thousand dollars.

I: Un huh.

S: Well you...it was almost common to hear some of the old ones..."Boy

when we get our Indian money."

I: Um huh.

S: Well...you would think...uh..the...just...for them to speak of it

that highly, they would have to have been thinking in terms of

more money than we actually received.

I: Now what about the people I've heard this one and that one...who

steadfastly said there's nothing to it. Didn't even bother to

register in those days? What...what was different about them

that they weren't interested?

S: Well in any situation...as in...with any people or group of people,

there's always those that are going to...that feel...felt like

that the...well if uh...so and...if uh...John my brother is going

to get any money I will too. I'll receive my fair share.

I: Um huh.

S: Well, as you and I know...that in order for John to have received

it, he first had to prove himself that he was of Indian decent,

and go back to the...these uh...ancesters that uh...that Calvin

had uh...and during all these trips to Washington doing various

research that he had Looduced, that he felt that uh...the

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S: government would accept as proof...and which they did. They

accepted all of the proof that he had.

I: Yeah.

S: And...uh...so uh...it just...just the general disbelief uh...that

uh...I guess...and the feeling...and uh...and the fact that they

felt like...uh...and too there was the rumors that existed that

uh...uh...Calvin was in it to make himself independently wealthy.

And uh...this was just a racket he had. And you go down there and

give him your money...he...what did you have...he filled out a

form...he kept it. You had nothing to show that uh...he uh...really

actually did you any service...which was untrue...because if he

completed forms for you he gave you a receipt showing that-you had

paftd those...forthe...that service. Which...there are those that

uh...did...I would say...uh...financially did well. Because of the

...the fees that they charged for doing this service...for producing

this information for those people who...indeed said they were

Indian...Creek Indian...and had uh...sollicited and hired these

people to do research for them.

I: -------------- ---------- -----?

S: Uh...not in the community there, but that...those that live in the

uh...Pensacola Mobile area. And.. and...Ba jinette.. .uh...

So uh...that was the uh...just a general feeling I think uh...

uh...that they just...it was just...uh...some of them accepted

the fact well if my brother, or my sister receives these funds,

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S: then I'll receive my share too.

I: So it sounds like...things began to shape up in my mind a little

bit better...that there were some people who felt like...by

investing this money...they were going to get a big return.

Possibly thousands of dollars. Yet there were other people who

even went so far as to feel like it was just a racket...that they

weren't going to get anything out of it. Did this ever cause any

conflicts in the community of any kind...between those two kinds

of people?

S: Yes...uh...uh...to some extent...that we'd got to the point there

where...uh...you know...in our little community...when I say our

little community...I...mine...commonly referred to as Heapoeeda,

uh...I don't know...we...they always supported Calvin. They really

believed in him, and the thing that he was doing. They felt like,

it was in behalf of the Creek Indian. Excuse me. Uh...and uh...they

just uh...if he told them, or asked them to have a supper, and to

bring uh...tell his family...ask them to...you bring the chickens,

and you bring the lettuce and tomato...that particular family,

you make potato salad, you bring bread.,..they did. And they believed

in him. Now I...you can't uh...it's not always uh...well uh...I

know this to be fact...we didn't always have...he didn't always
a ao
have that support from the PO/ch and Hog Fork Pommunities. They

were a lot less...uh...uh...willing to really...uh...to put any

effort into it. Now here ag..n...uh...if you start looking at your

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: (;,.membership of the council...you'll...uh...in the earlier days,

your representation of your council...in our community...we had
81
two members. Now Porch there was Uncle Dave...which he was a very

old man...really you just...he was more of a...just a...a vote, or

a fixture than...to really be fully objective, and to do the job

that...uh...that is required to really express his opinion and all,

he just wasn't that active, and his health was failing too.

So...they did....

I: This is Molly's husband?

S: Molly's husband. And uh...he just...uh...all he could ever tell

you or anything...he went to a meeting, and they did the...Calvin

wanted so and so, and they agreed. They...or it was just generally

accepted. Oh...there's another trip for Washington...going to have

another supper. I didn't know when all of this was going to stop

you know. And uh...often I thought about it uh...how..,..the things

that must have preyed on Chief McGhee's mind...and to think. And

then in those latter two or three years...to...I know before his

death...I spent an evening...one...he and I talked for some three

to four hours. About theJe things that we should...perhaps the

time was now. There had been so much time, and all of our energies

exhausted in this land claims case. But...it was important because

this was the only way actually that we were ever going to get the

recognition that we were entitled to. And at least we had gained

a spokesman. Through him...uh...and the time was now...for us to

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INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ...uh...to...to go in different directions...seeking more...uh...

uh...help for our people. Because uh...and different areas.

I: Such as?

S: Such as...health and uh...uh...and uh...living conditions and uh,

perhaps uh...uh...to...additional educational facilities and uh...

uh...organizations of intramural athletic leagues and this type

thing.

I: Had he shown no interest in that himself?

S: Uh...yes he had, but of course his uh...main uh...uh...the whole

uh...of his entire last twenty years involved this land claims case.

You have to remember he was uh...this was a very trying time...uh...

uh...during this time that uh...if it hadn't been for this man...and

I know to be a...for a fact...that he mortgaged his home...more

than once. He borrowed money...more than one time. And just...just

because that he believed that this was the only way that we were...

this...this land claims case...the settlement of it meant that the

recognition it would give the Creek Indian in Alabama...and east

of the Mississippi...that recognition that they were due.

I: Why do you think he was so driven to get the...?

S: Well, for that one reason...I think. Uh...because uh...uh...and

here again...probably because...he had worked so long and so hard

in behalf of this that he had uh...uh...this was the only thing

really that at the time...and not really having a council that


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S: A4was willing to...to present new ideas, and...and new direction,

and...and all...that this was really all he could uh...uh...the,

the significant thing he saw that must be settled.

I: Now do you feel like he had any broader ideas than just getting

the money, and getting the recognition...or what was it he was

really after?

S: Yes uh...uh...he uh...at different times, I know in talking with

him, he uh...uh...there were...in the...in the latter years you

know, he served on the Little River Community Action Program.

Well this was your program through OEO. Uh...this was an opportunity

he saw for...uh...for example Federal Housing. And uh...

I: Did you all get it?

S: Uh...well...we...we could...uh...if you applied for it. Uh...it

was available.

I: Um huh.

S: Federal services, and other, you know...uh...grants for education

this type thing. And uh...uh...health and welfare. And uh...he

was very interesred...and too...uh...I think uh...and I know, uh

he wanted to have uh...ang area...or a home perhaps for the aged.

Uh...the Indian...uh/ you know, the one thing that we were always

uh...uh...we had that love for one another. Clannish in that

respect I suppose. Uh...but...you know...I...he could go, and this


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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: fis one of the things now that Chief McGhee and I disagreed on.

And certain...I have to be specific in this to give you a

certain example. I had a relative,.Brooks Rolin ,wwho at one

time was a council member. And Brooks at one time was a very

active man in the community...he made numerous trips to Washington

with Calvin, and traveled extensively with Calvin throughout the

uh...Alabama...made several trips to Oklahoma...in behalf of this

Land Claims Case. He was also a Holiness-preacher. Uh...I can

remember the...my really...and probably the most significant one

in my teen years...he was a very prominent preacher. He and his'

wife Lela, they used to preach and sing together. Uh...I know of

...well, they used to attend various Holiness churches. Uh...

holding uh...what do you call them.. .evivals...and this type

thing. Uh...but.. .somewhere.. .somehow or another...te had a...

they...there was a separation of the two, and uh...he went his di-

fferent...they went uh...different ways. And I'm not sure if

they finally divorced...and they have not...I don't think they did.

But he became involved with another woman. He later took that

woman's life. Now Calvin...as well as some others...uh...felt like

uh...he...even though he had taken this persons life...that he was

not to be judged equally...this is the opinion that I got...uh...

for his crime. This is where I differed with him very strongly.

To me...any person...has uh...committed a crime, which is of a

uh...detrimental to the laws of this country...which I'm a citizen,

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S: ...I think they should be punished for it. That's my belief.

Uh...I...I...I believe in the system that much. And uh...I, at

one time Calvin and I discussed this. And I said uh...after I

was on the council...and I said...told Calvin...I said, Calvin...

I'm sorry, but that's just my feelings. He's a blood relative.

My dad's very own nephew...but to me...he had no right to take

another individual's life. Now...true enough...I think a person,

to justg.go and take another ones life...there has to be a moment

uh...the time that uh...they...this...they're not...they don't

realize what has happened. But to me this doesn't excuse them.

And this is where our laws...uh...we have made our laws to take

care of these people...and they punish with it. And I think this

uh...uh...I also feel that in doing this...God gave us the minds,

and knowledge to...to create these laws to live by...as he gave

us the Ten Commandments to live by...those were his laws. He so

gave us that freedom to govern ourselves...and uh...we...we have

to do that. So that was one way we...uh...we did differ there.

But you know...uh he uh...he said uh...he didn't tell me...he

said uh...he didn't say that I was wrong...he said...I remember,

he commented that you -are very right. And if that is your feeling,

then...then you should live by your convictions. And I said, that's

what it is. And I''l never do nothing...uh...I feel like he had a

trial...he was convicted...he...uh...the system...through the
no oo
system of our laws and all, and -uh.if uh...if you feel that he

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INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: wasn'tt given a fair trial, then that's your...that's...but

I just don't have the time and all to go around...uh...trying

to determine whether they did or not. I said...you know, and I

know that he took this individual's life. Now we know that. And

uh...to me...I said that no...not...nothing else needs to be

established. Uh...but uh...that was just one example of uh...of a

difference.

I: Did he try to get this person out or something?

S: Well, he felt like at least...he said that...his trial...he

should have been accorded a better trial. And I'm sure, perhaps

given with some of your more...probably uh...maybe uh...your more

uh...lawyers that were capable of handling this type of criminal

cases...trial lawyers...it's a possibility that he could have

been freed. But uh..I...I just didn't feel that myself. And I

just didn't feel that I had...was in...it was up to me to go

around to try and I didn't want to be a part of the council if it

was going to uh...uh...solicit uh...uh...reopen the hearing...uh...

on behalf of this one individual. I felt like there were things

that...more pressing things within the community...and for the

Indian people that we could do as a body...and should do...and

uh...and we...he agreed. Uh...and...and I...and as I explained to

him...I said as I explained to you...the night when I accepted

this job...I uh...pointed out to you people...the council members

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INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: (Athere...some direction I thought and would like to see. And

I said these are the things I'm interested in. I want to see

some things for our...for our young people. We need to...to

teach our young people the value of an education. This business

of dropping out to go into seventh and eighth grade...and

traveling all over the country...uh...uh having a job picking

tomatoes here today-iand tomorrow another state gathering

tobbacco*-.and this type thing. Life has more meaning than that.

And I think this is...this is the type of direction we have a

very...we need to work very hard with our young people in stress-

ing this..,.and that's just one area. And for our aged there is...

and a dental problem. I said that we know that uh...we need to...

some dental care and this type thing. This is what...this is the

new direction I want to see the council go in. Surely...we acting

as a group representing...I mean a body representing a group of

people...poor people...and in a lot of instances very poverty

stricken...therels things that we can do to help them...and that's

what I want to do. And uh...so...I said this is the rededication,

I said if uh...I'd like to...I said to me the Land Claims Case,

with the exception of the roll being completed...is settled. This

is the rededication and the new direction I would like to see

the council of the Creek Nation east of the Mississippi...uh...

set its new goals and ideals...to.

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





I: Uh...with that in mind...how does the idea of...well like the

thing you had just this past week at the Cordova Mall here...the

Indian arts and crafts...how does the specifically Indian aspect

fit in to what you describe as your goals for a group of poor

people?

S: Well...you know the one thing that uh...having to...having

uh...and uh...lived here in Alabama, and grew...lived in Alabama

rather...and uh...after the...the Creek Indians supposedly had...

were to...moved out. But there was soi many things as far as our

cultures, and our crafts, and various arts and things that we have

just lost. And uh...there's a generation...generations...of uh...of

young and old...who haven't the slightest idea of what the Creek

Indian life was like of our early ancestors. And what...I feel

that...well...at least...why shouldn't we make an effort to at

least give them...uh...to...to get some of this in formation

together. And perhaps set up a center...and teach our people some

of their early customs and crafts...and...and some of the culture.

And perhaps....

I: What value does that have?

S: Well it...at least it would uh...ke p the...I would think...the

Creek Indian from becoming totally extinct. Uh...at least...would

uh...uh...have uh...I would hope that for each one...it would give

them an opportunity to uh...really be proud of their Indian anceser"*

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S: Just to...so often I've heard that uh...and been asked...what

does it mean to be an Indian...uh...uh...I'll have to stop and

think...now uh...first I...1...I'll have to stop and think...well

now...what is the purpose in this question...what do you want to

know...are you asking me am I an Indian...if I am an Indian...

how do you...how am I supposed to know you're an Indian. Are you

expecting because I say I'm Indian...am I supposed to be different

or look different maybe. Uh...or just what do you mean. Now this

to me...before I can answer that question I have to at least

expound on these things to really uh...try to give you an answer.

And now to me...uh saying...I am a Creek Indian...o.k. what does

that mean. Uh...well, I was born, I have Creek Indian parents, I

was reared really what I had thought and to be a white society.

This is what I thought. But then I think back...uh...and after

looking back upon the way that our people had lived, and...the

...the different way that we lived and grew up...uh...that...we

have an identity there. But as far as living in uh...tepees, and,

and uh...being reservated...and just being set apart...we weren't.

We had our:own homes...uh...such as they were. Uh...and which

today are one hundred per cent improved...twenty years ago.


67















SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Uh...as uh...uh...as...as we just created more of a lifestyle of

our own, bmt perhaps patterned after the white man. But yet still,

because we were uh...as a group of people we were sort of set

apart by...I...I think of our own choosing. Those that chose to

live elsewhere...they live in the society and environment they're

in. They uh...uh...do the things that they want to do.

I: Hold it just a second....












END TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE.






















68















SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES

TAPE TWO, SIDE TWO.










S: Now if...if uh...in doing whatever they want to do...if...if

this sets them apart, or establishes for them a lifestyle which

is Indian, or non-Indian, or uh...or whatever they are...are

living or trying to project...the image that they want to project.

Then uh...to me this uh...this indeed...uh...would...would be...uh,

I think we should uh...make available to these people...at least

give them the opportunity to be aware of some of their own basic

customs that our ancestors did. Some of their...their...their...uh,

their dress...their...their different...say their...their...the

way that they prepared certain foods...uh the herbs and all that

they made for medgcine...uh the uh...some of their crafts and all,

just uh...these things in general. Now by this I don't mean that

just reverting back to..uh...the lifestyle of just living like

this. It's not possible. There's no way in the world it can be

done. But the fact that I do have...I feel just as the other races,

the Italians, the Jewish race, or any other race...they want to

retain some of that...that ancestry. They know that uh...uh...they

uh...well, take for instance your Italians...those that live in

America...or your...your...your uh...Germans...or any other uh...

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

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S: ...race of people. Uh...if they come to America to live...they...if

they had wanted to continue in the lifestyle and all that the...uh,

that country...I'm sure that they would have preferred to stay there.

Be...but because of the change and all...uh they saw and wanted

to...uh...to do...they chose to go elsewhere. Well, the...the

Indian is here. He...he hasn't gone anywhere.

I: Um huh.

S: Unfortunately...uh...the Indian has been hampered...uh...by the

uh...sort of...I think he's a victim of his own circumstances.

I: In what way?

S: Uh...$he uh...he was used. And the fact...because that he wasn't,

you had those people that uh...that came here...those people that

came...and the Indian...uh...these people came...they were foreign

to the land. The Indian taught these people their living conditions,

and taught them how to uh...,they uh...adjust to the new area,

and they helped them. In the beginning the Indian...uh...this is

one of the things that uh...distresses me about some uh...the Indian

has always been...uh...portrayed and projected...in a lot of cases

as...as a vicious person...with just a killer instinct almost.

And it's because that they have...they were...these wrongs that

they were done. And uh...uh...uh...it's uh...these things are

disturbing in a sense, but I know, and I feel that I'm in no posittion,


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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: yyrand I don't feel any Indian is really to...to really go

screaming and hollering...this is my land...and this belongs to

me. Well, look...I just lived here for the last thirty-two years.

Well, who am I to say it belongs to me? I have to I think in order

for something to belong to me, I have to get out and earn it, and

have the right to have it. Uh...but uh...in this situation it's

quite different. Uh...we know that there are treaties. I know

it in our own Creek Nation...that the government has uh...uh

made with our people, and that were broken. Well...this is just

again...we just didn't have those leaders or those people strong

enough to really stand up. It was easier to step aside and just be

pushed aside than to really...to...to uh...fight the establishment.

I: Do you think the government still has an obligation to Indians

even though that was done twenty...thirty...forty...hundreds of

years ago?

S: Uh I think perhaps...uh...that uh...

I: In other words is a contract made between your great grandparents

and the government...should that apply today?

S: Well it all depends on just to what extent this contract has to

be fulfilled. Now if it means...say we're...I...we're in...uh,

my home...or what I'm buying now...I'm paying for this. Now...if

it means going...say...I know this is probably going to the

extreme...but if...if it were to come to this...say in taking

what belonged to my neighbor...something that he's worked for

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

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S: SM.and earned...I don't think that would be wrong. I think perhaps

what could...there could be a compensation made. I think...I'm

just not in favor at all...I don't see the need...I think the

government could really...and uh...in the situation with the

Indian...uh...uh...I just thank my god every day...that I didn't

grow up on a reservation. Uh...I can really see no-good that

these...a reservation does. And why...the government continues

to re...really segregate a bunch of people here...say because you

are Indian...you live there...when this is a free country. And

why...as progressive as this country is...why that uh...the/....

the.i...the agency that has been established...to represent the

Indians...to really...to me...as to why it can not really...uh...

get into the problems, and the situations of...of uh...going into

these areas...and really helping these people, and in that manner,

rather than just sticking them off out into an area and saying...

uh...this is what your forefathers wanted for you...this is it...

you take it now...and what little subsistence you're going to get

we'll give to you. I...I think that uh...in or...uh...that this

is the only way the Indian is going to be helped. Given...if they'd

just split it up and to who...what...those that live on it...give

them ten or fifteen acres or however much there is...or let them...

uh...look...section it off...this is ten acres for you...all right


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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ,,&now you work for this. After you've pa/d for this then it

becomes yours to do with as you want. And...and train) you know,

work with these people...and...and...this is the only way we're

going to really uh...

I: Well...how...how does that fit with your feelings about...your

own...your own situation up there with the grant land for example?

S: Well uh...it gets back to...here again...we had a situation that

the grant lands...they were given for service. They were taken

away...uh...from uh...uh...the Indians when they were...uh...uh

the gift was taken, and...from them...excuse me...when it became

uh...when there were tax...when they...oh let's see...when the

uh...when the...it was originally as a gift for service. All right,

there were those that...who lived on the lands, and are continuing

to living on the lands...who through the process of law and all

within the state of Alabama...those grant lands have...they...now

they have become taxable. The only thing that I think I resent

most about the...the whole situation is the fact...is those

individuals the way they were taken advantage of, and in...in...in

different instances the way the lands have been taken from them...

because...

I: All right...you would see nothing wrong with just splitting the

grant land up amongst those who lived on it?

S: Yes. Yes. I wouldn't. I have no animosity against...I would want

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: .any of it.

I: Um huh.

S: Uh...if those...I would be happy...if right now...or else if

they maybe...if they could just say take an area...or a section

of it...and say uh...for the older people...build an old folks

home or something of this nature. And then...uh...something that

could be uh...we have uh...we have some trained...uh...nur...

Indian nurses now, and we have other people...I think would be

interested in coming and working in there...something of this

nature. Uh...but other than that to uh...to uh...uh...let those

families...I...I would I think...uh...I would still like to see

since it was given to the Indians for the service...I think I'd

like to see Indians remain with it.

I: Um4...do you think there is a place for...analogus to a public

park...a piece of land that belongs to the whole community of all

the Indians...sort of like a corporation owned land...or not...in

this particular situation?

S: It's possible...yes...it could be...but uh....of course you would

have to...you'd have to have a lot of cooperation of all the

people. They would have to be...uh...have to really understand

just what it was...and...and it would be up to them to support a

...a program of this nature. And uh...uh...they could capitalize

off of it, and the fact that they could, if they wanted to...uh,

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INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: ...let's face it...the American public today is very much...Indian

aware.

I: Yeah.

S: They're interested...and they realize the fact that...the...the

American Indian is a forgotten American...the American. And uh...

it's time to...we...that uh..-waveehewa.the country...uh...really

initiate programs to...that are beneficial for them, rather than

just saying that...you're entit...you're welcome to live on the

reservation, and we'll take care of you. Which...I'm...I believe

that uh...the old story that uh..."Idleness is the devil's work

shop." We...uh...we have to...I see so many examples just right

up there in that...at hom...that little community at home. A

people just having nothing to do. And not really applying themselves.

Uh they have the potentiality...but they uh...they have to really

uh...you have to really ajemotivate yourself. Uh...success 4

is determinedin the individual. Just how successful you are is

just...uh...means really...just how determined you are...the sky

is the limit. And uh...this is uh...true of uh...uh...of anyone.

Uh...and...I'm...I don't like to pat myself on the back by no means,

but...I...uh...I'd like to think if uh...if I wasn't interested

in trying to uh...really uh...look at life...and uh...as such,

and prepare myself to want the nicer things in life...I could be

like others, and just hold my hands and do nothing. But...that


75
















SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: 4icertainly...I certainly wouldn't be...uh...uh...^9qeddoing the

wishes...that uh...of...of my...my parents and my family. I

think a family is/, whether it be Indian or any family.er.uh...

morally...uh you know what is...to me that pride in that family is,

to really show yourself...to really...the achievement, the accomp-

lishments that you make really...uh...is an example of the things

that you were taught in your childhood...from the beginning. And

this is uh...uh...it's for everyone, and everybody. And this is

important. And...

I: Let's come back to another point...on this business of...Indian,

Indian identity. And...I remember when...I guess when I first met

you...how you said that...you had always said...that it...you'd

never put on an Indian suit to prove you were an Indian or something

like that...but that you had begun to change your mind...and I'd

really be curious to know your feelings about your original

position, and then why you changed?

S: Now I' think what I had said, and uh...I have said uh...and I still

believe...if I have to wear feathers, and put on a costume to

prove that I'm Indian...to lell with it. That doesn't make the

Indian. That doesn't make anyone. Now...I have uh...I have uh...

got a costume now, and I wear it. Simply for the fact that...people

as such...as uh...uh...we...we stereotyped one another you know.

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: There's certain things...uh...you see an Indian...you say Indian,

automatically you think of feathers.

I: Um huh.

S: Uh...you think of a certain dress. Which was true...uh...and the

Indian Dress that was uh...uh...the dress that they made...I...I

don't think it was...it was uh made...or uh...for...to really...

uh...set them aside as really as to...to just uh...uh...give uh,

our...usi..our...our class or style, but I think it was pride

in...in making something that looked nice...that...that they really

made these beautiful costumes #d things that they...that they

did...uh I don't...we say costumes, it was dress for them.

I: Their clothes.

S: It was their clothes is right. And uh...nd the fact that they had

such...uh...such...uh originality and creativity and...and allI

I think this...this is where the...the...the...their dress was

unique. And perhaps it...they were classified...to be an Indian

you have to dress like an Indian.

I: Um huh.

S: And to dress like an Indian you have to wear the bright colors

and your...the feathers are all part of it.

I: Um huh.

S: But I've said...I...I still maintain if uh...if...if...if it's to


77
















SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: WICprove to people that I have to dress with feathers and a

costume, and if this meant...uh...an everyday...uh...life...uh

I just couldn't do it. To me it's being presumtuous in just really

demanding and requiring something of me that I'm not.

I: But you are willing to use that to sell a product?

S: That is correct.

I: And what is your ultimate goal in selling that product?

S: It's to...the...the...to uh...revitalize the Indian. To make the

people aware. Uh...the Indian is a...uh...the Indian is a...uh...

uh...a proud person. He should be. We have our heros in our

Indians. Uh...we've had our non-heros as well as others...and

we have them today...I think. Uh...that...that if uh...if uh...

here again I...I don't think...I like to feel that uh...in the

position I am...the people I'm representing...that those people

are proud of what I'm doing...little as it may seem. And the

representation that I give them...where ever I go and if I travel

in their behalf...or whatever I do. And uh...this is the reason...

my reason for...for...I feel...uh...for being involved, and uh...

an active posi tion...uh.. .and telling the story of the Creek

Indian today.

I: Well, you answered the next question I was going to ask, and

that is why do you do it all...and that's it.

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: Yeah...that's it.

I: What...one last question...looking...say maybe now ten...fifteen...

twenty years into the future what would you like to see in the

future for the Creek Indians...the east?

S: Well, you know, one of the very finest things that I could

think that could ever happen to us all right now...is the interest

that we have.............developed, and uh...uh...not developed,

but...we have stirred...uh...here again I have to...we have uh...

I think of a...there's a time in our church services...that we

have what we call a stir-up Sunday. A time you know...it's time

to...it's that...it's...it'll...just once a year thing...I mean

uh...certain...time that we uh...it's...it's a time...you know we

all have...uh...we're all one to let things just slide by.

And uh...and I'm real proud of the fact that uh...we've got

uh...uh...I...uh...because of uh...uh...our younger people. When

I say our younger people today.......I.... .1..artm;.a generation

other than myself. Uh...that uh...that are...they're coming up.

They're very interested, and uh...the Creek Indians. What it's

all about...what it was, and the history of it. And uh...I would

like to think that in some...perhaps in...maybe fifteen or twenty

years from now...we'll have some Creek Indian doctors and lawyers.

And uh...other uh...uh...scholars...educationpeople and uh...this,

this...this is my point in selling the...uh...the educational idea.

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: So much of the fact...at least given the opportunity..if that

person has the ability, and the need, and desire, and the want

to do...we will have them. But at least...instill in them...work

with them, and give them that...uh...that chance to really work

in their behalf. And uh...I think with the...uh...the programs

that we've got in mind, and have in mind for our...our people,

and the...with this culture center...if it...if we...it's goes

through hopefully it will, and looks like from all indications...

uh...that uh...uh...we can just uh...perhaps uh...just carry on

some of this tradition...excuse me...and uh...some of this old

uh...older.. perhaps...uh... I would like...I'd be...I'm very

interested in just for...for a standpoint of...uh...just being

able to have some knowledge of the language. Uh...like I say,

first of all I'm an American, and I speak the English language,

but there's a...there's a...nothing wrong for me to want to

speak any other language if I have that interest to...but I would,

since I lRve Creek Indian ancestry, I would like to be able to...

to at least know some of the language. And this....

I: You know...I often have thought about, and wished I could almost

get inside their heads so to speak...but the younger generation

that is coming up now...that never experienced the really harsh

poverty and all of that...the younger Creek Indians...uh... the

ones that are little kids now...that are...that are growing up,

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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





I: .--n and don't have any direct first hand or even second hand

experience with the poverty and the discrimination and so forth...

and at the same time all of their lives have seen Pow/ows and

Indian doings and things...what their feelings about being Indian

are going to be twenty years from now...in the sense that...neither

have they been able to see the contrast to what the old Indian life

that you knew as a boy was like...and they just sort of take as

common ordinary expectation that there will be a Thanksgiving

/-owiow you know...that in a sense the younger generation seems to

almost be growing up in a...in a sense of those cultural things

more Indian than the older people in one way...but less in that

they haven't experienced the...the tradition of Indians in Alabama

from the past hundred years of living on the farm and all of that

kind of thing. I dan't know if you ever...do you ever think about

the attitudes of those younger people that are coming up now?

S: I thought of this...I was thinking about this, this Saturday.

Incidently with uh...Bill...Saturday was the first time that we

used them, but we had uh...I know this is irrelevant what I'm

talking about, but I just have to tell. But uh...we used the

little girls Saturday for the first time. And surprisingly enough

those four little girls went out there and just...and they were...

I: Danced?


81














SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN

INTERVIEWER: PAREDES





S: And danced!

I: Um huh.

S: Right there, and here were all these hundreds of people surrounding.

And I thought about that. I said...now here we are with these

little four and five years old children...now...in my day as...

just in...you know, as a boy and all...it was never anything

mentioned of this. Then all of a sudden here we are...we're

telling these children...and they're...they're real interested.

And...and...and I...I thought just...uh...well...at least uh...

there'll be us around, and hopefully history will have recorded

too...there was a different society when the...there was...it

was...it was...and here it is begun again.

I: Um huh.

S: At least they'll have that recognition. You know...they'll know,

and uh...be aware of it. And I think it'd be...an outstanding

accomplishment to then think...well my generation is responsible

for revitalizing this.

I: Yeah...it's funny to think of yourself as an old man...

S: Yeah...yeah.

I:,,, selling those children as adults how it was in my day.

S: Yeah.

I: I think that's enough.


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