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CRK 38AB
\ SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
\INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
DATE: 4-6-73
TAPE A, SIDE 1.
PAGE: ONE.
I: Two---three---four. Testing 1...2...3..4. This is April the sixth 1973,
and this is in Pensacola, Florida at the home of Buford Rolin. Uh Buford
Rolin has been a very important, and helpful person in my research. One
of the first of the Creek Indians that I met, and actually the first
council member Skat I met, and set up my very first appearance before
*\ council. And we've talked many times informally in the past, and I
hope to get some of this information on tape...so this will be a kind
of informal and rambling interview. Why don't you start off Buford by
starting with your early rememberances of life in the community. How things
were back when you were a boy.
S: You want me to include the schooling and all this?
I: Uh...include your experiences in school...yeah. Your own personal
experiences in growing up in the community.
S: Well...in my uh...in my earlier childhood of course one of the things -'k-cV
we were taught to...was that we had to...in order for life to have any
meaning at all for us...we had to become self-sufficient. In other words,
we had to...for us to have any...for life to have any meaning or anything
we had to first uh...my father taught me...even though he was uneducated,
I can remember back in my early childhood...even in grade school...uh,
he wanted me to have an education. Uh...I remember...we were very poor.
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Uh...uh...uh...but we had...there was a lot of love in our home I
suppose. That's why I...what I like to attribute to my success, what-
ever it might be today. And uh...uh...school.......I was always very
active in school, and grammar school through high school. My earlier
school, I attended uh...uh, which was...what was rather...uh...in the
beginning, for any formal education for anyone was set up in the...a
church-owned building, which later became a public school. I attended
uh...first through the third grades there. And uh...in the fourth, fifth,
and sixth grade, I attended at the school at Porch. Then in the seventh
through the twelfth grade I went into At/more...was uh...bused daily.
Some fif...over fifty miles round trip.
I: Incidently...before we get too far...for the sake of posterity...would
you say how old you are now on the tape so we know what time period this
is.
S: O.k...I'm thirty-two years of age. Uh...earlier childhood...uh...as I
remember, uh I...we uh...we were...my...my parents...uh...I guess to
really...uh...my life has been involved always in church work. What I
mean by this is that uh...my family...aa-I was born in a log cabin that
belonged to the church. Which was the care takers home. Which uh...uh,
after a few years of living there...uh we bought a small farm, probably
I'd say a half a mile, forty acre farm...my dad did...from the church.
And uh...my earlt years...uh...we...were just spent in...uh...mainly
involved I would say in church activities...mainly to and from church.
Then to school...we lived at the distance close enough...where I walked
2
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: 4vyto and from school. Uh...we...I uh...even as a child, as I stated
earlier, my father...one of the things that I remember so vividly today,
is that uh...he instilled, and taught us, the value of an education.
Mainly I think because he hadn't had the opportunity, and with uh...
having worked with uh...the uh...people of the church there, who were,
I would say missionaries...uh...and having been exposed to uh...travel,
not extensively, just throughout Alabama...
I: In connection with the church?
S: In connection with the church...he had...could see the value of education.
So this is one of the things he really...uh...stressed to us...the
importance, and the value of one. He could see the need of education.
I: What part did he play in the...the school issue...back in the late
'40s?
S: Well now uh...I don't remember specifically ever having him say, other
than that he did support...uh...Calvin McGhee and Jack De.eher and those
others. Uh...because he knew that he had children that would soon be at
the age...uh...school age that they wouldn't...would be needing...uh,
in order for them to have an education equivalent to...or uh...or
uh...being able to attend an institution higher...of higher learning
where they could attain more formal education...uh...they would have to
have either the schools would have to be set up there, or we would have
to go into town. So, he was very...he supported this, now just how actively
I haven't heard him say.
I: Now along the line of general schooling, and all that kind of thing...you
3
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
I: Wlyourself, how much association did you have with children outside the
community here, your own age, any at all?
S: Done...no, none at all, really, that I can recall, with the exception
of...here again I have to go back to uh...refer to uh...church work.
Uh...this time...I remember my early childhood...uh...I would say in my
earlier teens...the vacation Bible schools...were uh...begining to uh...
be a part of the community life because of envi-eament and several of the
other churches. So therefore our church began to have uh...vacation
Bible schools. Then through the church...now our church had a uh...a camp,
in northern Alabama that uh...
I: Episcopal church?
S: Episcopal church, yes...that uh...our young people from uh...uh...uh...the
primary...not primary...I guess first grades level up through the senior
high school...various camps throughout the summer...that they attended.
And we were uh...invited to these camps. Now...traditionally...and it was
just uh...in order for you to attend these camps...even though it was
church sponsored...each family was supposed to provided the expenses for
their own children. Of course we weren't in any posittion to have uh...any
funds, or monies just specifically set aside, uh...to really...I guess
they could see the value and all I'm sure...the need for the outside
contact, and the benefit we would see. But having worked with what we
had, and the small farm that we did, it was just very important that
uh...in order for us to have...uh...school clothing, and to have...try
to save up some little money to have during the winter...uh...it was
4
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: essential that if there was any kind of work available, that we needed
to work, whether it would be at home, or in the community. Uh...uh, or
sometimes...I remember in the early spring...we didn't...I didn't...uh, go
as often as a lot of the other Ind...younger people in the area...uh,
into Baldwin County and work, in the potato season. However, during the
later years, in my later teenage years...I was permitted to go down, and
uh...work.
I: Did-you ever miss school to go and do that?
S: No...these were uh...uh...at this time, uh,ft was always right at the
school...our school year was set up to where, at that time we were out
of school...no later than the...I would say the 25th of May. And normal
this was when this season really began to uh...become uh...
I: Do you recall how young the youngest children were that went over to
Baldwin County?
St Well,-I would say some as young as...uh...six to...six years of age. They
went and picked these potatoes, you know, with their...with their parents.
I never once...now the one thing I never did...I can remember...these uh,
this one man that uh...well, there were several men that had these big
trucks, you know, with just packed people on them...and drive them down
there. And they would pick these potatoes, but I never-t.ta.rode that.
The only time that I went down, would be to work on the potato shed
itself, and actually live there for a week. The we'd uh...go home on
the weekends.
I: Where did you live when you lived over there?
5
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Now there was always this camp that they referred to was referred to,
but it was normally, usually a big house that the farmer had for...for
I guess"Isharecroppers...or migratory workers. And I guess we...you
could classify us as migratory workers...because we did that. And uh...
uh...now mostly the women lived in these houses though. The boys...we
just sort of roughed it, you know, we stayed in the...on the, you know,
after the...we'd complete the work for the day, we had our quilts and
blankets, and we'd just sleep right on the potato shed...mostly. And
uh...then, you know, morning come...packed that away...and back to work
again.
I: Were there uh...groups of people that would come from other places to
work in these potato fields too?
S: Uh...yes there were. Uh...I know in partictA...now just as the...these
people that I referred to,earlier that went in these trucks...they were
Indian themselves. They had these trucks...but they would also take the
Negro laborers in and then...mainly I would...I would think, and just
because I don't know if there was any reason for this...but it...generally
it was your Negro laborer that picked the potatoes mostly, and uh...
because the fact that uh...uh...I don't know how long that they had been
working down there on this potato shed...so...but uh...I don't know, I
Ct-
remember most our people...we worked on the potato shed. So....
I: Now what's a potato shed-exactly...just-storage area?
S: The potato shed is uh...the area where that they used to uh...your
potatoes were...they gathered them in the fields, they were bagged,
6
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...trucked into the shed, they were then dumped, and there was a
grading area, and uh...they picked the bad potatoes from the uh...the
yield there, and uh...then they were bagged, and...and uh...loaded on
to vans, and shipped out to different parts of the United States. And
this....
I: Well, you say generally the Indian people worked in the shed...and the
colored people were out in the field?
S: Around in the field...that's correct.
I: Were there any white workers there?
S: There were white too, but normally...I don't know...as I look back over
it and what...uh...as I remember it...this was mainly your two uh...as
I remember it...uh...always you could...I never thought of it then in
a sense, but there was probably that the uh...distinct difference,
because you had...you had your colored in the field, and your Indians
that worked the potato shed. And of course now there was some of the
colored people that yg4,odid work on the shed.
I: What was the pay...do you recall that?
S: Oh...my goodness...I remember uh...I think probably...now they...I'm
...like I say now...we never did...I didn't get involved that much until
our later years...I can remember I think probably seventy-five cents an
hour.
I: You were payed by the hour right...not bag or something?
S: By the hour,.by bag. And uh...of course as I mentioned earlier, we
had our own little farm and uh...now we, in later years there...we started
planting the cucumbers, you know, and they...the production of the
7
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: VNcucumbers, and the uh...they came off just about the time that your
potato season did. So uh...there was always plenty of work to do at home,
and it was just in...I would say for myself, it wasn't just an annual
thing, it was...probably I made three or four trips down there...in
the four or five years, you know.
I: Did you yourself or any members of your family ever go off further, like
to North Carolina, or Wisconsin and work in the fields?
S: Now...let me...I had one experience where I went with my aunt. She had
gotten involved with the Agricultural Department.
I: Aunt Florence?
S: My Aunt Florence.
I: Um huh.
S: Uh...through...uh...some other...the Indian men there. They had gotten
involved too. Uh there were these uh...different farmers...tobacco farmers,
and tomato farmers, that were looking for...uh...people to come and gather
the crops from out of state. I did make one trip to Virginia...with my
Aunt Florence. I was there two weeks. And I didn't leave because of the
work...I left mainly because of the living conditions.
I: Really?
S: Yeah.
I: What was it like?
S: Well...uh...it was such a...I had...being a young...as young as I was,
well I guess I was seventeen or eighteen years old...I just sort of had
projected that...uh...life away from home is to...even though working
8
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: founder these conditions...as being a little different. And as I remember
cor...uh...uh...this particular situation. There was this long build-
ing that we stayed in...no privacy what so ever...and everybody just
sort of spread their little...their bed rolls or something in whatever
end they were in...there were some areas the...that uh...I think that
the...this building that I went to...uh...it might have been three or
four rooms. And they used one area for eating and cooking, and the living
area was there. But now we went into the fields during the day and gathered
the tomatoes...but we gathered the tomatoes...see...and then....
I: Well tell me were there men and women both in this one building, or did
they have two separate buildings?
S: No...no...the men and women were in there.
I: Together?
S: Together. Um huh. Well in this situation I can remember...there was two
or three...uh...two or three families that we had that went. Man...men...a
man, woman, and .some children..And we were.just sort of...all sort of just
home folks, you-know, living together.
I: Everybody in that building was from your community?
S: Yes...um huh...yeah. Everybody...uh...well, kin folk.
I: Uh huh.
S: They were kin folks. Now....
I: Were you all the whole crew for that particular farm, or were there other
members of the group too?
S: Well now there were other members that were there. Uh...uh...we were
9
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Vworking, I don't remember the name of the company, but we went out,
and when we went into the fields to work there were other people that
were there...either local or people who had come in especially for the
harvest season of these tomatoes. And although...it was so hot, I never
will forget that...so hot out there...and uh...just...I don't...the work
just...it just wasn't uh...first of all, even though we were poor, and
uh...we had uh...things were pretty uh...hom...and in our home...we
didn't have the...the particular life styles, and the conveniences of
your more modern homes. And we had been taught to respect one another,
and what have you. And this type of thing...I could just see that it
just wasn't...uh...it just gave me the feeling...I just felt like I was jU 9M,
an outcast. Just living on the...uh...uh...just in uh...uh...just really
living, or existing. And I wasn'ty^there really...I couldn't see anything
beneficial from it. So uh...I just made the decision at that particular
time...one of the men who'd went up from the community...he just...he had
been enticed into going too. I mean he'd heard all the reports of the
Success and all...the...that you could...the money was available there,
which it was, but you really had to work. And you had to have people that
were really...wanting to work, because I thought...I never...that I can
ever recall...to picked up any uh...potatoes, and put in the baskets, but
this is what you did in the tomato fields...you picked them and basketed
UP .
them. And uh...I think it was something like ten cents a basket. And uh,
it just really...the...the tomatoes were there...they were plentiful.
But it was...I don't know...like I say...I just couldn't see myself
10
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Ky,/out there. And uh...I thought...I had some reservations about the
whole thing...I said...gosh...surely life's got to have more meaning
than this, you know, and I said...at least for me anyways. So uh...at
the end of those two weeks...and I had an aunt now that was living
there at the time...she was from Mobile...and they...
I: She was living in Virginia?
S: She was living in Virginia. And she had invited me up to her...their
home to stay with them...I said-no, but she had a real nice two-story
home there, with several of the families who had uh...well, it was her
step father and his wife and all had come up from uh...Atfmore, and
they were living there.
I: Which aunt.was this?
S: Now this was my Uncle Edmond's...uh...wife, Myrtle, and they were there.
he was living in Mobile. He worked the state uh...but she...I'don't...I
...I don't really know how she ever got up there other than just:to hear
about this...about the farming and what have you. And uh...so they, you
know, ask me to stay, and I said no...I just...I must go back home, this
is just not for me. So I did...I came back home. Uh...and I don't think
I was ever so happy to see home as I was then. I just...I knew that this
just wasn't...my...the type of life that I wanted to live. And now several
of the other families that I remember even went farther. They went up to,
into Wisconsin, that area, working potato fields. This never interested
me. I never wanted...after that one experience, I just felt like...surely
things had to have a different meaning and there was more to than...I
11
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...I just didn't feel secure in roaming all over the country, and this
was....
I: One thing I've never been able to really pin down...is how the Indians
got started in this roaming around the country. I've...Jack Dauttry
for example carried a lot of people around, and I....
M,0) m a.)
S: Miles McGhee that you never mentioned...I think Mile was probably....
I: Did they do it through Agriculture Extension agents, or...?
S: That's right...right. This was the...he came down...I remember that,
I'd forgotten his name, but he came down from Bratton, the agent did,
After...you see...at this time, uh, Alabama, and all the different areas,
VYein-
states I suppose were zhe notified of the need of help to work...uh...in
these fields and what have you. So that's how it got started. Now uh...it
was from that...uh...that you had more and more of your people getting
involved. It was just a means for the...the older people I can see, for
them to make some quick money you know...to support them throughout the
year. And if you had good working people, and people that were eager to
work. Just like going into North Carolina to those tobacco fields,
uh...if you went in there...you had a good group of men...and women too
that were eager to work...it could be very beneficial to you...worthwhile.
I: How...how long ago do you think this first began...or...this going to
different parts of the country working...well even going as far as
Baldwin County...do you remember when you were real small...the older
people talking about having gone to these different places or not?
12
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Well I suppose as soon as...as I remember...uh...hearing...as a child,
I can remember the stories of uh...the people gaping to Baldwin County,
to work in the potato fields. Now...their mode of transportation I don't
know. I don't know if they went by wagons that they drove down and
horse and...and uh...mule and wagon rather...or if the way...if it came
about during the area of modern transportation as it began...I would say
probably...I think it would be safe to assume...to say probably in the,
I would think maybe the late thirties. Most.definitely the early forties,
'tM this....
I: Now what about working in the citrus...I've heard your dad talk about
having worked down there...what do you know about that...how did that get
going?
S: Now this was another program through the extension...Agricultural Extension
Program. Now...my dad went to Florida...South Florida, with Jack Daultry,
to partic...to par...pick the oranges.
I: Um huh.
S: And this was another time, you see, that uh during the harvest season,
and this was during the summer, you see. Then they could go...as this
thing was set up, you know, as your seasons...if I remem...as I remember,
you had your spring...your spring harvest, such as your potatoes, and
uh...your...probably your green vegetables, and cucumbers...of this thing.
Then they could travel to Southern Florida, during the summer for the
harvesting of oranges, and by the early...uh early August, or no later
than late August, they were back to pick the cotton...gather the cotton,
13
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: t.you see...and....
I: In the immediate area...right?
S: In the immediate area, and this constituted I guess about six or seven
months of really active employment there, if you were interested.
I: What about picking of pecans...has that been something people have done
for a long time?
S: Now uh...picking of pecans I think probably...I would think...uh...this
came as...uh you mentioned picking of pecans...here I think of Aunt
Florence again...she got involved...uh...mainly because of uh...uh...the
picking of cotton. Now she met, you know, different people in Uriah, and
what have you...they had these pecans that had to be harvested. So uh...
that's how that came about.
I: Now-what season of the year...pecans are like in October, November...?
S: October, November....
I: Now that's after all the cotton?
S: After cotton.
I: Um huh.
S: So actually you see...it turned...when they started including the pecans,
and to really be truthful about it, from what I can hear, that...it
doesn't seem like something that small...that you could really make any
money at it. But I've heard those...those women mention that uh...seventy
and eighty dollars for one week...it just is...
I: Now when people got started doing all these things, going around gathering
different crops, were they still trying to keep their own farms at home
too?
14
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Yes. Now in our situation...uh...you see we had allotments for cotton,
and this type thing. We had just a few acres, but even...you see, we
could come in...uh we had these trucks again...these men that...say for
example I use Alfred Jackson, Mile McGhee...uh those were the two in
our community...I remember most...and Willie Gibson, Willie...he
worked with uh...Mile, in autumn...you see...they would take us over
even...to Lottie, which is just a community just up the road from...uh,
Porch there, and we'd pick this cotton...well if thirty or forty of us
by
went in a field in the morning,.ad afternoon...we could...we could
clear out quite a number of acres, and it got to the point there, I
can remember one period, we used to pick the cotton, but then somehow
or another through the ginning process, they found out that you could
pull the whole bud from the stock, and uh...uh they could uh...through
the ginning they had uh...engineered and uh...and with technology and all
had uh...you know...advanced it to where they had some means of...you
just didn't have to pick the cotton itself, you know they could eliminate
this waste...
I: Yeah.
S: And...uh...and then-after the...uh really...during the cotton season, after
you started going there and stripping this...stalks like that...it was
just nothing to cotton picking any more.
I: But...the thing that I' trying to get at...it was still possible say, for
a family, to go off to different places picking and so forth, and still
keep their own farm at home?
15
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Yes...um huh. Uh...like I...I was going to make that point...uh...in
our case, where we had just a few acres, you see, well we could just set
aside, maybe in the communities it...look...now we're going to work over
at this farm in Lottie a certain number of days, and then we're going to
be back, and we can gather your cotton, and uh...a certain certain day.
I: Oh you...everybody that had worked in Lottie, say, would come and work
on your farm?
S: Yeah...yeah wecould just do it like that...after we got...
I: And did you pay them something for helping you, or would that...?
p id
S: Oh yeah...everybody was payed and all that...
I: Excuse me...was there ever any...a time when, say, everybody would go
pick this person's field, then you'd go pick the next person's field in
the group without paying any money?
S: Yes. No...no it was always...each farmer payed, you know, for the gathering
of their crop.
I: In the community...in the community too.
S: Right. Yeah.
I: Uh...getting back to the church for just a minute Buford...uh...I
remember one time, just in a casual conversation, you were talking about
uh...I've forgotten his name now...that Iriquois fellow you met, who was
bad mouthing the missionaries, and all that, in Tallahassee that time,
rememebr that uh...bemqn Logan is who it was.
S: Oh...Bemqn Logan...yeah.
16
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
I: He was blasting the churches, and your feelings about that, if you'd...?
S: Now let me tell you how I met Semon Logan. Uh...I attended, last...it
was in uh...in last March I guess it was...or was it April...I don't
know, but it was a cold day in Tallahassee. Uh...the Creeks had been
invited down there to uh...there was a group in Tallahassee who had
uh...gotten together...uh...several people, and they were Creeks, and
uh...they wanted to start uh...the...a movement in the Tallahassee area.
So we were invited down, and I went down to uh...Tallahassee with them.
And uh...uh...at this particular meeting, Chief Beman Logan, who's uh...of
the Iriquois Nation, of New York) ie's from Seneca, New York .)was there.
Now I had met Beman Logan...uh...one year...February...last February, it
was a year ago...at a conference I attendedrin.Boston. The purpose of this
conference...uh...some /astern Indians...had uh...uh...through various
trade papers, and what have you, they had been uh...various Indian groups,
or bands as some are referred to...of $astern Indians. They had been
listed as living in different uh...parts of the eastern United States.
And uh...they had uh...these particular people that organized the
conference in Boston...well, they invited the Creek Indians to participate.
Mainly because they had heard of Calvin McGhee's name was listed in
Washington with the...it was listed with the Bureau of Indian Affairs,
and others as...uh...he was listed as Chief of the Creeks in Alabama. So
they invited...uh...delegates from the Creek...uh...Creek community to
come and participate in this conference. Well uh...the,-.our...uh, there
was also some funding available, but they could only provide funds for
17
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ,vone representative. So myself and another council member...uh...
attended this conference with our chief, Houston McGhee, at our own
expense. And it was at this conference that I met Beman Logan. And
he uh...told about uh...his work among the Indian people in general.
And uh...uh...uh...his uh...confrontations he had had with the...the
delegates from New York, and the Congress, and the uh...House of
Representatives, and uh the senate, and his various uh...other activities
involving Indians...he said all the Indians...representation of all the
Indians...uh...in Washington. And his traveling through the west with
this Indian...uh...movement...to revitalize, and bring about the...the
uh...religious movement within the uh...Indian himself. Uh...and it was,
like I say, in Boston that I met him. Well, a year later, he:was invited,
as...as I was, to Tallahassee, and it was at this particular conference
that uh...uh, he began...he was...he was invited there, and he was given
the opportunity to expound more upon his uh...uh...feelings about uh...
uh...various aspects of the...the Indian, as far as...uh...economic,
economics, social...uh...life as the effect...the different people,
such as uh...missionaries, and what have you...who had come to the
various Indian groups to really uh...supposec to minister to them, that
had really just taken,in their teachings had just taken the life-style
of the Indian...uh...just the very roots right out from under him. Now,
I listened to him uh speak, and right away I had...I felt...I felt bitter,
and I was bitter. Because of this one fact...here I was, a young man, who
18
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: jsyhad all my life, to what I am today...I have to think that...I have
to attribute to...uh...to some form of uh...religious teachings through
a missionary. Now...as...uh...I...I'm an Episcopalian. I was born, baptised,
and am an active member of the Episcopal church. And I'm very happy to
be a part of it. And uh...I would think that uh...and hope that hu...
because I believe in that particular church and all, that uh...my life
should be...continue to be a part of that teaching. But getting back
to...here was a man who says...he was an Indian...full-blooded Indian,
and he was attacking something that had meant so much to me, and in my
own way...uh...is...I felt like it was...in that movement...was responsible
for me being...or having had the opportunity to be what I was. And I
didn't exactly appreciate it. Because...all my life I had been...I had
been taught and told...I was an Indian...I was a Creek Indian. But to
what degree...I was never really...excuse me...uh told uh...all I knew
was we were In/dian. I...my mother was Indian...my father was Indian.
Whether...I know my mother wasn't full blooded, but my father...as far
as from what uh...uh...geneology and research that's been done...uh...he
...the he was probably full-blood. But I know most definitely so my...I
know my mother's side, her father was uh...her grandfather was a white
man...Englishman. And uh...here was a situation where...like I say...
having grown up. All my life :,I've...as I said...I was told I was an
Indian, I lived as an Indian, I was in a community...I lived in a
community that was Indian, and to me as far as I knew, and of...uh...
from what I could read...our life-style was quite different from the
19
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: X vWestern Indian. We didn't live or have...uh...I hadn't heard the...any
Indian language. I was not able to...I had no really customs...uh...or
uh...as...we didn't have any crafts as such or anything, or make any crafts,
or have any arts and crafts or anything to speak of. Mainly our life-style
was that we were living...we just lived as Indians...in a community.
And uh...myself, I don't...I know of any...areas or any times that I was
ever...there was segregation...or segregated against. But I know from
earlier stories, and uh,.from what I could see just from going into town,
that there were those that were segregated against. Because they were,
some of them were dark...here in my situation...I have a lighter skin.
This wasn't that problem...I wasn't confronted with this. But getting back
to...he was a...the chief...Beman Logan...he was again...an individual
who was attacking my very existence. So this is why...I...I just didn't
understand, and I didn't feel that uh...all the work that the missionaries
uh........hed done...and certainly not in our case...was all uh...in
vain. And...and in our situation...it very...it meant the very difference
in our life. And in mine in particular. And I...I...I'm thankful. And
I appreciate the fact that we were accorded that opportunity. And I
appre...I'm thankful to the church...that they had people who were interested
enough to come, and live, and work, in our community. And to...to uh...work
and minister to the Indians...not only uh...in the uh...the...uh...church
type work, but to...for the social and uh...economic standpoint...to give
them an opportunity to really emphasize and teach them, in order for them
20
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...to really...for their life to become...uh for them to have any mean-
ing...it had to...it was entirely up to them...whether or not he was an
Indian or Negro or anything. Life was only...uh...what you made of it.
Now being in the situation that we were in...this of course did make some
difference. Uh...for uh...uh...our...uh...in the environment that we
lived in, and all, there's a...uh...in order for uh...uh...an Indian,
uh...to really, in that community, to really afford himself any opportun-
ities...uh...heihad to uh...really...leave the community. Because as...
and...
I: How far?
S: Fifty miles away you could go...to Mobile and Pensacola. It was...nobody
ever questioned what you were or anything. Uh...and that is why...I think
we have uh...the migration into these two cities that we do have. Because
of the fact it was just an opportunity. They weren't stereotyped, or uh,
or anything...or classified as to being...uh...because of his race. He
was afforded that opportunity.
I: Excuse me just a minute...do you remember your parents...or other older
people talking about the times before the missionaries came?
S: As far as their lifestyle and what have you?
I: Yes.
S: Yes I can...uh...I remember...of course...uh...here again, uh...I say
yes and no because so much of this...you know, the...
I: Really what I'm getting at is...is as a child...were you...was it ever
21
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
I: ...held up to you as a kind of contrast...of this is how bad things were
before the church came...or was it not a consideration at all?
S: Now...in our...here again...uh...uh...in our situation, uh...my
father, I have to refer to him again, because of his contact with the
people in the church, and his havingbeen able to move around within
the state with these people...uh...I think mainly...uh...there wasn't
any uh...contrast or anything...it was just the fact that he was just
facing...uh...life as it was, and seeing the importance of uh...an
education, or, you know, for just...to really for your own lifestyle.
If you wanted to really have the better things, you know.
I: I know for example he's on a number of occasions has talked with me about
how...one of the good things that r did when they first came...
END SIDE ONE
22
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
TAPE: A; SIDE: TWO.
I: The question I just asked at the end of the other side was uh...
whether as Buford's father has told me before about how when the Macys
first came...that they did a lot of medical work for people. Uh...
whether he had talked about that to...whether uh...Buford's father had
talked about that to his children or not, and Buford said....
S: No...I don't recall...remember...really ever hearing them make any
contrast or comparison to the earlier childhood...other than they did
just relate...uh...how uh...different stories about, you know, of
just uh...how hard it was for them. And uh...being neglected of this
medical attention...and...and all that uh...and schooling...and this
thing that they didn't have the opportunity to uh...take part in. And
uh...but mainly I remember...uh...as uh...them telling the stories of
the work that they had done there.
I: The Macys?
S: The Macys had done...you.know...in the medical treatment, and the
schooling...and uh...just how important that was. And uh...uh this type
thing that uh...is...I... just don't ever recall any earlier stories.
I: Now the main ...uh... church workers when you were growing up were Father
Mercal...
S: Right...yes.
I: Preacher Mercal...or Reverend Mercal..
"-7
S: Reverend Mercal.
23
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
I: How...what was he usually called in the...?
S: Well...Mr. Mercal.
I: Mr. Mercal...um huh.
S: Mr. Mercal.
I: And Ms. Bradshaw?
S: Now Ms. Bradshaw and them...they came in the fifties you see. They...Ms.
Bradshaw was when I first...uh...she and Estell Warren were the first
two ladies that came down from Birmingham...were the Bible School teachers.
Uh...you see, in the earl...in the... well, 19...in1929, when the church
was first established there...they didn't only build a church there at
St. Annes...but there was St. Johns of the Wilderness that was built, and
right now where the present Holiness church is located...there was an
Episcopal church there...St. Johns in the Wilderness. And that house that
Alton Jackson used to live in...the lumber from that house was...he
purchased frem the church...sold that to him when it was torn down....
I: St. Johns was torn down?
S: St. Johns was torn down, and he brought and built that home.
I: As a child did you ever go to Holiness church services at all?
S: I did.
I: You did?
S: I did, and one of the most...uh...uh...fantastic experiences I ever had
in my life, and was...I'll never forget as long as I live...and uh...was,
of course if you are familiar with the Holiness religion...as you know,
24
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ,^.they have these terms that uh...people that uh...to shout and carry
in the wind...I can remember as a child...even though we attended the
Episcopal church and all...uh...it was just common, you know, this was
someplace to go. And if there were other churches and all...it was...we
visited. And uh...I was an Episcopalian...and that's just like when the
Menonites came in, you know, I was an Episcopalian...I attended Menonite
services. I attended Baptist services...no big thing, you know, it...it
was just something to do...somewhere to go. Uh...uh we didn't really have
any activities, or uh...as such in the community...uh...other than uh...
uh...any organized athletics or anything...it was by...by no means...if
we had a softball game or something...it was just uh...some...there's a
bunch of boys we got together...or...uh...our own...as far as having toys
and this thing...it really depended on your own creativity. If you could
create something to uh...I can remember...we used to take and cut down a
tree...and take a large uh...board...and...you know...make a seesaw.
this type thing...or a "'lying inny"...we used to call this thing.
I: What's a "Ilying Oinny" ?
S: Uh...well, it was...actually...you get this board, you know, and you...
they get to pushing you around this thing...this I think is how the term
;L f, L&
"plying pinny"...if I remember correctly...but you....
I: But it's basically constructed like a seesaw...except you'd go around
and around and up and down?
S: Yeah...around and around...yeah...up and down. And uh...now...but relating
this experience with-the.Holiness church...uh...I never will forget this.
25
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: I don't know...I think...uh...as just a child, when I could...I was very
inquisitive, and I found myself in the beginning of the service seated on
the...this front pew. And there was a little church...it's little
Holiness church...now here........actually...where uh...or somewhere
right in that area...where Edgar Reichards lives now...there used to be
a little Holiness church in there...just a little one room building.
And they had the...they called it uh...uh...I...I don't know if they
called it the altar...anyway it was a raised area...and they had these
railings around it when they had the prayers, you know...they would go
there and pray...but this one lady...she got to shouting...and she just
...the next thing I know...she was in my lap...and I thought the woman
had died. And I was never so horrified in all my life. And that's one
experience that I think I'll always...uh...really remember about the
Holiness church and the religion. And uh...of course...our teachings in
our church were...we were taught...uh...just what uh...uh...well we were
teased...uh...because we had a prayer book, and we had this formal service
that veryone...uh.. .could participate in. It wasn't the uh...type of...uh,
uh...service, church service, that these people projected, you know, where
they just had these preachers that'd come and just read a passage from
the Bible. And...and you know...just preach and expound from that. And
this is...I guess more or less...from what I have seen, and recognized
from the Holiness churches...uh...they...of course they would have the
singing, then they would have the preach...you know, reading from the
Bible, and &;eprcad and what have you. Then they...of course during
26
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...these...uh...uh...preachings...uh...a lot of times the people
would get to shouting and what have you. And that was the
occasion for this lady.
I: She passed out in your lap?
S: She passed out in my lap. I don't know wh...I... think I might
have fainted also...but it was an:experience I'll remember.
I: Other than going to church over there...did you ever just go over
and play with kids in Eaot Switch or did you stay pretty much
cVacA o0 pr-d0rda
around Hedapdda-?
S: We stayed pretty much at home. You know...it's a funny thing, that
uh...maybe it was because we just didn't uh...uh...have the means
of...of modern day transportation and communication...but even
in our own community...uh...we...we were just sort of...uh...we
were Indians here...and those were those Indians over there.
I: Um huh.
S: And do you know the strangest thing about it...as I grew older,
I found out that this was my very own relatives...my dad's folks
that lived there. And here they were to be such strangers. I
couldn't figure that out. And I used to think...well now my
goodness...and uh...so often I'd go ask my daddy...I said...daddy,
why in the world...I said-that's your sisters and all that live
out there. And we just never...I knew that Aunt Molly and Uncle
Dave lived out there, and that was about it. But we really never
socialized with them any. We just lived in the community.
27
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
I: What about your mother's people?
S: My mother's sister...one...well...there was Aunt Florence. Aunt
Florence I was very familiar with, but she had a brother. She had
UJa-LL
a brother that lived in Mobile. Bat actually the two brothers...
one was a merchant marine, merchant seaman, and he shipped all
the time. And I saw him occasionally throughout...when he'd come
home, you know, he'd come and visit. And then the sister that
lived in Pensacola. And uh...that was about it. And as far as her
family...now on...in my...uh...situation...I never saw a single
grandparent from either side of my...uh...my mother or father. I
came just shortly after they had all died. And uh...I...I think
more...if I could say that there...if there was anyone person, uh
that was in that community with something of the stature that you
would classify a person as a grandparent...uh...and she was
certainly...I think she was a I4od other...to me...could have uh,
I would think...uh...Dan McGhee's wife, LenAa. tUh...Lenpla was like
a mother to me. I just...I don't know...she was just...sort of...
uh...I don't know...it was just uh...that I ...how...I can't really
say how I became so attached to her. But I....I remem...uh...in my
early teens, you know...of course...uh...my late teens, she died.
But I...I really became attached to her. Now...I just sort of...
just as a second mother. You know another lady that I...I really
became very close to and fond of...and perhaps uh...was Clara Rolin.
Uh Clara was more just...like I say...if...even though she wasn't
28
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ,otthat old...If I would...just like...you know...it was just some-
body I knew that just...I felt like that had that special love and
feeling for me...and they was always...seemed so interested in
what I was doing.
I: When you were a teenager did they live...did those people...uh...
Dah McGhee and Clara Rolin live in the place that they live in now?
S: Uh...
I: Or live in more or less that area?
S: General area...yes...uh huh. Uh...they at one time...you see,
Dan and Lentia...up until Lenaa's death...well and after...uh...
Hatty Mae and Halford lived with Dan. And they were still care-
takers there. Uh...but Len/a and Dan came to live in the caretaker's
home. after momma and daddy...when we bought the farm...uh...excuse
me.
I: Speaking of that area...uh...is there...as long as you can
remember...has there always been a store where Calley's store is
now?
S: No. That store I would say...has probably been the...in the early
1960s...and the late '50s.
I: And it was MiAe McGhee that originally built the store?
S: .Mi-le McGhee. And it was one little building. And out of one little,
when he first begun that...it was one little building. And uh...he
enlarged it...added another room and of course he still kept the
one building. And then of course...and as he passed away...uh...
29
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...uh...Martha continued to operate it...and then she later
remarried and made it into the...the grocery store that it is
today.
I: Had there been any store in the community-before that?
S: Well I...not in our area...but out there at...now at Porch...across
from the Holiness church...there was Riley McGhee, you know, had
that little ol'....
(He^J o-C Perdi o
I: Oh...his store is older than the one in Hedapedeeda?
S: I think so...I'm sure it is. Riley had that little store out
there and all...but, you see, you know, like I say now...here I grew
...really I guess to...to really see these people...uh...in...in
Porch community...really...actually know them more...uh...as,
as uh...I began to...was the fact that our school bus traveled
through there...you see...going...
I: When you started going to Atfmore?
S: Going to Atfmore to school.
I: Uh huh.
S: Now...of course the children were from...uh...bussed from there
up to the school. And I...and I got to know them...
I: You knew them in school...but then they went home...or,..?
S: And that was it...about it.
I: Uh huh.
S: And then of course during the harveq seasons we would see them, but
you know, even at that...when we would go and pick that cotton, I
30
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...remember this so well, uh...they were still...they were just
...there was their little group, and we were our...0h! ah...when
we socialized...I always...and...and I remember we'd...in this
cotton fields we'd go and pick the cotton...lunch time was a big
affair. Everybody...we'd go out into the woods there, and if you
hadn't brought a lunch, you know, you'd stop by the store...and
you always picked up...uh...cokes and what have you...and this
was just sort of, you know, you mingled and mixed and...and saw
each other. But other than that...very...really the only times
you really ever got to see anyone is at funerals and this type
thing. I always....
I: Those funerals would bring people together always?
S: People together. And now your...your dinners on the grounds, and
this type thing...now this would really...uh...it would bring the
people together. And uh...uh...we uh...I guess as far as to really
mix with the people or anything... Did you know...uh...that's why
...I would...as you...probably in your travels there...and those
people that you have met in the Pensacola area...you...you'll meet
...uh some people who are Creek Indians. If you were to mention
some of the names of those people living today...just...would be
news to them...they wouldn't know who they were. And here they
could be...might have been...I would say as close of kin as first
or second cousins. They just never really...they adapted their own
lifestyle where they were living, and had their friends...and, and
that was it. 31
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
I: Now...it would seem to me that this ,Iand claims Money might have
been something that got people getting to know each other better
too at those meetings. Do you remember, as a child, going to
some of those early mass meetings?
S: Back in the early '50s...I remember that...yes. Uh...when this,
this thing...you see I was...back in 19...uh...let's see...I
started school...well it was in...1950. Now Mrs. Grace K. Mays,
who is still living in...uh...in Atfmore...uh...I... I..she
taught me for two years...fifth and sixth grade. And uh...she
uh...of course as...in later years...and I'm sure as...in my...that
I heard about it...But uh...of course...but...as a child this
didn't mean anything. But as I grew older I began to understand
things more. Uh...I could see the...uh...I was told again, that
uh...she was the one responsible for this Indian Claims Case ever
materializing. And uh...and I...I can remember attending some of
those meetings. And uh...
I: What did kids do when their parents were having meet...did you all
sit in on the meetings...did you go outside and play or what?
S: Yeah...we kust played...that was it. I mean they had a meeting,
just uh...uh...maybe Calvin was uh...I remember...probably...uh,
now this would...uh...you'd have to...really for this thing...
even though it got started in the early fifties...really I think,
probably...it was in my teens that I really...uh...uh...got to
uh...as far as seeing Indians grouped together for...in something
other than a funeral...or a...uh...they used to refer to it at those
32
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ,i(qHoliness churches.. as fifth Sunday meetings and things like
that.
I: Um huh.
S: Uh...but uh...really I uh...now here again...let me tell you a
situation that uh...another time...a focal time that we got
together...was at Christmas. Now in our church...in the Episcopal
church...we always had the Christmas party. This included speeches
by the children, the singing of the carrols, and doing the Christmas
Story. This...to me...uh...uh, this is...as I can remember from a
child, this is what Christmas was. We never knew what it was to,
to uh...have the...a Christmas tree, or...in my earlier childhood.
Uh...that was Christmas. We had this great big huge tree in that
church, and we decorated. We had this Christmas party and all, and
that was Christmas. The...the toys...uh...and uh...candy, and apple
and oranges were sent in for the Indians. And various toys...and
were given...and this was Christmas. Uh...my very...I guess the
very most special thing that I can ever remember getting at
Christmas time...was made...I must have been around fourteen years
of age...and uh...this time record players, the little small record
players, well...were...uh were begin...becoming very popular. And
my sister...I had uh...uh...she at this time...even though she was
married...she didn't have children...
I: It was Leola?
S: Leola...this was Leola, she's...of course she's passed away now.
33
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Uh...but...uh...with Jack, her husband being in various veteran's
hospitals having recoverage from tuberculosis and surgery and
things that uh...he had contacted from the war...she traveled to,
I remember...Kentucky, Memphis, Tennessee, uh...different areas,
uh Montgomery, where he was hospitalized. And uh...I never made
any of those trips-withher or anything, but uh...uh...I don't
know, this is sort of...at least I had some member in my family
was, you know, at least moving around, and being exposed. This
was a high point to me, this, in my life time, I...I can remember
that too. Uh...but...uh...this particular time, I never will
forget...uh...Leola had uh...she had...she was home, and I just
don't remember whether Jack was at...he was...I think he was at
Wontgomery. And she came home, and I had been, you know, I just
heard talk, and we had the radio, and all the talk of these
record players. And I had...it was getting close to Christmas,
and I said I would like to have one of those record players. And
she got me that record player. Now...we had had, at the church,
St. Anna's Church, uh...I don't know how we came about it, but we'd
had a record player. Now...and I think really that's where I...I
got to become aquainted with the record player and what have you.
Then again...uh Ms. Mays, in the fifth and sixth grade, she always
had the...she had this old record player.
I: Um huh.
34
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: And she...it was the old wind-up type you know...and she used to
play some little marches and things for us you know. And uh...uh,
really, we just were never...after we started going into the
public schools like this...uh...uh...I say public schools, I
really should correct myself there, that's all I actually knew,
was public school .
I: Yeah.
S: Uh...but we were never really taught...uh...uh...that we were
any different, even though we were Indian, we were just taught
that...that...what the state of Alabama had set down as the...the
format for education. The...we had the basics, readingwriting,
arithmetic, and this type thing, you know, and uh...the basic
st/dies...and your social studies and what have you. But uh...I
had always...I can remember saying I wanted that record player.
And she got me that record player. And uh...as far as I...to
really associate the something...or to...getting a gift at
Christmas...that's the one thing that I remember most...other
than at the...the play...a Christmas play at our church. Did
you know...uh...we...we always looked forward to that time of year.
And we would walk from home. We would get in from school...we
would do whatever work or chores we had to do...and we would walk
to that church...and rehearse that play until it was...and my
sister Leola directed it...and...uh...we would rehearse that play,
and sing those carrols...and all of that 'til...leading up to
35
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: 6\/.that night. That night...it was referred to always as that night,
that night, you know...and you go...you know...when...now this is
the way we...now you don't want to come out here and do a little
sloppy old speech, you know, like...like you're saying it now...
now remember that night...you know...that's the big performance,
you know...this has got to be perfect for that. So uh...we always
would rehearse...and we would walk back and forth. Until...and...uh,
then Leola and Jack, after they came back, and Jack was able, they
had an old pick up truck. She used to...we could walk up there,
but she...she managed to deliver us all that night...back home,
you know, in that old pick up truck.
I: But at the Christmas...on that night...then people would come
from all the different areas?
S: The communities...yeah...from...and to see the play. Yes...this
was a big performance...I mean...
I: Were there ever any children in the play...who were not Episcopal
children?
S: Yes...in the later years. Now some of the girls from out at
a
Porch...uh...I remember...Annabelle McGhee...and uh...uh...well,
4-r--) -,1 7 41p-)
the DougheEees...Houston...see Houston, and Emma Genne DoughetF"e,
and Charles...now they lived out at Porch...but that was Dan's,
Inez and Adam Doughtee....Inez was Dan's daughter you see. And uh,
Adam...having worked in the pulpwood and all at one time, he had
his own pulpwood truck...then during the potato season and the
36
SUBJECT: BUFOED ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: (\Ocotton season...see he did have transportation.
I: Um huh.
S: So...uh...I would say in my later teen years...uh...we started to
really...uh....to really socialize with one another, and become
familiar...and here again like I say though...I think probably
just traveling through that community everyday on that bus...back
and forth, and seeing the people and all...really I got to...to
see them more than I ever really did...and...at any other time of
the year.
I: Tell.....uh...tell me a little bit about...uh...I know you have
before, but uh...talk a little bit about what it was like when you
...among the first to go into high school in Atimore...what it was
like in the early days of... dians being bussed into At/more.
S: Well...in my...my first year...uh...when I went into seventh grade,
uh...uh...into Atfmore...here again..I...I have to keep...I have
to refer back to...I...there were Episcopalians who lived in town,
who had at one time or another...had...came out to St. Anna's.
And uh...I suppose that when it...it really...the town folk really
realized that it had to be...and the Indians were going to be
bussed into town. Uh...uh...they uh...I can't really say that this
was their reason for doing it. But uh....because of the fact too
that some of our teachers who had come from town, into the
grammar school...now this was after I had left there, and was
beginning to be bussed into town. They had uh...come from town.
37
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
4-1
S: Th = r^ i aji no.oui..I remember Mrs. Broek, and Mrs. Williams.
Now Mrs. Broek's son...he and I were classjmates...from seventh
A
grade through high school. Uh...and uh...uh...but I...I guess
just that uh...they had...they had uh...realized and begun to...to
know that they were going to have to accept...and...and through
Mr. Mercal...uh...and...there was some of the uh...uh...the
uh...people in town who attended the church there who had made
visits out there, and then through contact with the uh...my
folks going into town had got to know them. And uh...I remember
that there was some...uh...children of Episcopal families in town,
uh that I had seen, you know, and uh...and they were very friendly
to me when I first went into the...and continued to be.
I: You'd seen them when you'd gone to church in town or they'd come
to your church?
S: No...well, we didn't visit that much in the churches...maybe I'd
go into town, and I would see them.
I: Uh huh.
S: I don't really ever recall attending any services in town, until
after...uh...I was in...uh...I guess junior high school. And the
first time I really actually ever remember going into Trinity church
in town...was I participated in Old World Day Prayer Program. I did,
I read for them...the Indian version, now who wrote this I
don't .ow...the Lord's Prayer.
I: That's the first time you went to Trinity?
38
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Uh...yes...there at Trinity church that I can remember in town.
And this was a Friday, World Day of Prayer Service.
I: Were you the only Indian that/went in that time?
S: This particular time that...yes. And I came from school.
Is r -e I(?)
Mrs. Britell came over and picked me up from school, and brought
me over to Trinity church. And uh...I participated in that program
that they...
I: Because you were an Indian?
S: Yeah...they had wanted one of the Indian children to do th, .--
I: And how old were you at that time?
S: I must have benn twelve or thirteen. I was in seventh or eighth
grade. And uh...I don't know...but as far as...uh...as...as...after
going into high school in town...as myself...you see I can remember
even that my sister...and uh...my sisters and my brother...you see
I never attended school in McCulough...
I: Um huh.
S: Now the Indians were just slightly...they were just...were not
they went there but they were...uh...they weren't wanted. I had
often thought, you know, and I said when it came time for me to,
to leave that school there at Porch...if I would be confronted
with this...knowing that I was going to have to attend school
where I wasn't wanted...and I was so thankful that that year...
when...my last year there...maybe it was a couple of years...uh
maybe it was in fifth grade...they discontinued that up there...at
39
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: -McCulough...the school there. And they started bussing those
students in town.
I: Well before the Indian children had been bussed to McCujough and
At/more...or just McCulough?
S: Well now some of them I understand had went to...up in that area
there they went to McCulough...
I: Um huh.
S: And...uh...I think...and some of Calvin's children...and down in
that area were going into town. But I know I...the students in our
area...they were bussed to McCulpugh.
I: McCulough ?
S: Um huh...up to that...well it just had...uh...from uh...grades one
through nine there. Then to finish your education you had to go
into town...to Atfmore...to do... And...I know my...now my sister
Bessie...who lives in Mobile...now she uh...I think she completed
the eighth grade. And uh...or maybe it was...she might...I'm sure
it was eighth grade in McCulough. Now my sister Lottie...now she
com...she uh...the eleventh grade...but she went into town.
xShe rode the bus into town. But she just got married, you know,
gave up school and got married. And uh...same was the case...now
I think Bessie just quit school because she just...uh...not living
under pressure...not being wanted and what have you... think uh,
40
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: "Ifprobably it was one of the reasons that she wasn't interested
in completing...
I: I've heard this about McCulough a lot. Do you have any ideas that
you've come up with that explain why Indian children weren't as
well received at McCulough as they were in At/more?
S: Uh...the...you know...I have often wondered about this...and I've
heard uh...different uh...uh...reasons for it. Now another thing
uh...uh...that...we had to be...uh...I think if it was one...uh...
one single incident or situation that could uh...distinctly...uh...
separated our...the two communities...was the fact that now...over
in the Hog Fork area and the P rch area...well ------ -- you
know, you had your State Farm...and I....
I: State Prison Farm?
S: State Prison Farm...and a lot of those people over there were
just associated...uh..uh...with those uh...trustee prisoners, and
things like this. And in some cases even married to them. And some
of the wives...women had children...illtgitimate children...because
of these people. And of course you know how the stories go back
and forth and...like I say...here we...we felt, in our community,
we just didn't want any part of that. I mean...when the...when the
prisoners ran...oh that was...we were just fearful...
I: Um huh.
S: Because we just thought every man in prison was a...a convicted
41
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: MpMmurderer...uh you know...and they were just out to kill
everybody...
I: Yeah.
S: And uh...uh...uh I remember a situation back uh...uh...one time
during the practicing of the Christmas Program...uh...we went into
the...the church, St. Anna's Church. We opened the door...to
uh...uh...to the wood stove that was there to fill the fire...
and reached in there...and out come convict clothing. And we ran.
Well...that's all we...we just became fearful for our lives. And
did you know just that very day children...Jack DougheTIs daughter's
twins...Earling and Pearling had walked from over at the...where
the building that is adjoining St. Anna's Church...right now, which
is our parish house...used to be the school that was over across
the pond there. They had wa d through that pond...there used to
be just a trail through there...they had walked through that pond
and they had seen those men in St. Anna's Church. Two men...and
they thought it was my dad and Dan McGhee...and they had waved to
them...as they walked by...that afternoon. And here we were in
there that night and they had uh...at that time there used to be
a building out there. You see the women used to...the can...uh...all
of these vegetables and things, and kept them in this building out
there. Because they used to cook...you see they had the cook room
and all for the school. They had...they cooked those hot lunches
42
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: .and all over there...and all. And there was all of these...uh...I
remember black berries...all of these different...uh...tomatoes,
and vegetables that they had canned. But to us...I mean...maybe
that was one...uh...way even...ourselves...we as our own community
we just...you know...felt like...well...it was just...we didn't...
just didn't do that...you know...
I: Um huh.
S: And so...actually we just sort of...had that...the difference among
us...and we...I was just always...felt like...and...and it's still
uh...you hear it occassionaly...those people are just different
from us...you know. And here they were Indians too...you know.
And often times I think now as involved as I am in the work for
the Indians...all the...how could I think about that now. Uh, you
know I wonder some...so many times I'd heard that...they're just
different from us. And when you start...when you start to...to
really compare the lifestyle of the three different communities...as
you start...you can really see the differences that really were
among us then...that made them...almost three# separate communities.
I: What are those in your opinion?
S: Well...I...I think probably...mostly in...now uh...here again you
get your church involved...again. And uh...you see...uh...one of
the...uh...as uh...I was growing up and what have you, and uh...
uh...my uh...uh...teenage years...I used to have........uh...I...we
were permitted ...the parish house at the church...we could have
43
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...uh...uh, I use to have little dances and all there...you know.
n
And I was criticised...oh...growing boy...
I: Dancing was sinful?
S: Yeah...very sinful. No kind of activities...none what so ever...and
I just sort of took it on myself, you know, to have these little...
we'd have these little dances and all...just some way for us to
socialize...and all...and boy that was... The...hear again...uh
you see uh...this was at the time my...uh...the later years too...
that uh...we'd become...we was introduced to the rock and roll era
of music. And you was hearing this...we all had radios and things,
and...and uh...forty-five records you know were out then.
I: While you were like in High school?
S: High school...yes...yeah...this was...you know...all the...
I: Do you remember the first radio your family had....or was there
always a radio in your house?
S: Oh yes! There was...I can remember...the old box type with the
batteries. We used to run a atenv...had this big...uh two...you
used to just take...go out into the woods and cut down these...just
Black Jack oaks. Small...probably an inch and a quarter or two
inches and three inch...and we'd take a...a wire...and put up there,
and run into the house. And you bought these dry cell batteries,
and...and....
I: That was before you all had electricity?
44
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Yes...before...oh I can...well yes...we...we had lamps and all.
I: Do you remember a time when your family didn't have a radio?
S: Uh...or was there...a time...the earliest you can remember...was
there...?
S: From the earliest I can remember we always had a radio. Uh...I
can remember my dad uh...listening at the ball games.
I: Um huh.
S: The St. Louis Cardinals...baseball.
I: Getting back to the school thing now...did you have...did you feel
td of- Pet-clido
like when you went to school in Atfmore...coming from Hedaped-eeda
a
or Porch...did you feel like you encountered any prejudice at all
as an Indian...when you went to school?
S: Uh...no...
I: Yourself personally?
S: Myself? None I don't...here again...uh I uh...people...the, you
know, occasionally you know your going to...with children...uh...it
was uh...uh...it was mentioned, you know...I can remember just
hearing some of the snickering in the back and this type thing. But
as far as myself...uh...really...uh...any real problem...I really
don't uh...recall it.
I: Almost to the end of this tape, and I wanted to ask you this
question from earlier tonight. You...said that frequently...you
say to...people don't be bitter...that you grew up through that,
you know what it was like...but don't be bitter.
45
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER::PAREDES
I: Could you expound on that a little bit...what you mean by that?
S: Uh...here...as I said earlier...uh...there's so many things
that uh...are, you know...to use an ex...one of the...a good
example...like uh...is uh...well, we have to...the Indians Claims
Case. And...and uh...I...I feel like when uh...I see someone, and
he makes mention of the fact that he got his $112.13, and now
he's so proud of that. I...sometimes I felt like probably I
wanted to look back and...and uh...feel that...well, where were
you during the struggle. Where were you? But...and...if...if I
became...if uh...and I...I think I was bitter. I really was.
Because of this. But I feel now...in order for me....
I: This struggle...now what struggle do you mean?
S: When I say struggle I mean actually living the life in the
community as an Indian....
I: Yeah...uh huh...uh huh.
S: A Creek Indian you see...and here we were...here I was in a
community. And where we were known as Indians and lived as Indians.
But uh...because the fact that...uh...this particular individual's
parents had an opportunity to go away...get away, and to make the
life better for the...I don't think that uh...I have the right...to
really feel bitter to them because they were active...or...or grew
up in the lifestyle and all that I did. And...uh...I think it uh...
one of the...the easiest things that there is for uh...for us to
do...is to feel...or to (ve our prejudice against one another
46
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Ajffor that. And it's...and it's definitely the wrong attitude to
take.
I: Have you ever yourself felt bitter towards white people?
S: Uh...not that I can recall. But uh...now...here again I guess it's
just from...I don't think my...uh...my...my mother and father
ever taught me to hate anyone. They never did. But my mother,
I still...she...she...she always taught...whether he's black or
white or yellow...God says...God loves us all. We're all God's
children. We have to love one another. And some of the...I guess
the most...uh...friendliest relationships I had...with the colored
people at all...is...you know...working with them on our farm. They
worked together...well on that forty acres...gathering of those
crops...and all.
I: Yet...yet you said you were...as a child...in lower grades...you
were concerned about the possibility of going to a school where
you weren't wanted.
S: Right...yeah...yeah. Because...that was the situation up at the
school....
END TAPE A, SIDE TWO.
47
CRK 38AB
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
TAPE: B, SIDE: ONE
I: Tape two...Buford Rolin...tape two. Twenty-three. Buford could
you begon by talking about the circumstances under which you
ended up going into the military?
S: Uh...yes...in 19...after I graduated from high school in 1958,
uh...in the fall I went to college...uh it was known as Monte...
uh...Alabama College at Montevallo...Alabama...in which I stayed
until 1959...spring. And then I came home and I just decided
I had enough education. And uh...I decided I wanted to get out
and earn my million. And...I haven't made it yet. Uh...but uh,
I took various jobs...and uh...not the jobs...I actually went
back home...and...and worked...these uh...different uh...uh,
seasonal jobs there...until uh...uh...or it was the summer, well,
it was one or two...it was in the early summer I guess it was.
Uh...it was late summer really. These relatives that lived in
Pensacola were up visiting...and uh...they had been up several
times before, and you know...asked me to...you know...to come to
Pensacola, and see about uh...finding employment down here. I
wasn't too eager, but I said well, what the heck...you know. So
I came with them. Packed a bag and came to Pensacola. And this
48
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...uh...relative's husband...uh...knew this contractor...was in
business...and he just spoke in my behalf, and told him I needed
a job, and asked him...uh...if he could work. And he told him
what training I had. So I went over and was interviewed, and
took the job and worked for...oh I guess it was from...let's see,
September through March of the following year...which was 1960.
At that time...uh...they just decided that they didn't need a
second man in the office, and uh...uh...so I was let go. And
uh...from there I went over to Mobile, and took a job with the
International Paper Company. And uh...which was about uh...uh...
probably the worst job I've ever had...simply because it was not
uh...steady employment. It worked two or three weeks, and you was
off four or five weeks...and you never really knew what shift you
were going to work. And uh...uh...I just wasn't satisfied with it
all. The money...when you worked, you made good money. Which was
good, but during this time...uh...this friend of mine, and myself,
we decided... He...at the...he had alre...he was in the National
Gaurd, and he had missed so many National Gaurd meetings and what
have you. It was at the...the time was pressing for him, and he
knew sooner or later he was going to be drafted. So in uh...January
of '61...he and I went up to the Brewton Court House, and...to
volunteer for the draft. This was in January. And I remember very
specifically. The clerk says uh...Now gentlemen if you've come to
volunteer for the Army, you're in the wrong office. The Army
49
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: V recruiters...in the post office down there. No sir...we came
to volunteer for the draft. Uh...he a second time advised us...
No...we came to volunteer for the draft. "O.k. if that's what you
want." Uh...but he said this is not a recruiting. So we said well
we just want to volunteer for the draft. We want to be drafted.
And he said, "O.k." And...and uh...that was in January, and in
May...I mean March...uh...received my uh...notification to go to
Montgomery for uh...late March...uh...to go to Montgomery for the
...the physical examination, and the testing. In May I was
Classified 1A, and eligible for draft, and uh...was uh...uh...
set up my...or was notified that uh...that uh...I would be...uh,
at a later date would be notified when I would be called into the
service. He didn't have the exact quota then as to what the draft
...they needed for the...the services. So in May...uh...late May,
I got my greetings...I was going to be inducted into the Army
July the twelfth, 1961. And uh,..I went to...left on July the
twelfth, 1961, and went to Montgomery, and was sworn in. And uh...
that's how I got into the Army.
I: During this time period in your life...did you...were you taking
any active part at all in the Indian activities, or the Claims Case,
or anything like that?
S: No...I wasn't. I only...the only thing that uh...at that time,
not being as certain as to...really what plans...uh...I...I just
wasn't sure what uh...whether or not I planned to stay in the
military and make a career, of it, or just what.
50
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Uh...but uh...I was no more than just uh...in service...and uh,
doing a job as uh...being in the....
I: Well what did...how...how did you become to be on the council?
S: Uh...well...it was during these times...this time that I was in
service...at different times I'd...came home, and uh...you know,
I talked to my sister,-who was a member...uh...Leola. Uh...about
the activities, and uh...she kept telling...mentioning to me,
she said...uh.. .why,:.don't you get on the council...let me resign,
and you take my position. I said no...no that's not necessary,
and she said well...I...she said uh...I'm not doing...there's not
that much going on, and I'd be happy to resign, and ask them to
appoint you. And uh...that uh...went on I guess...perhaps for...
several uh...years...that...that, and with the conclusion of uh...
my uh...term in the service...and in 1966...I remember...well, I
got out of the Army in 1963, and I was working in Pensacola here.
Came to work in Pensacola, and uh...I was home one weekend, and
chieff McGhee approached me. At times he and I had discussed the
fact that uh...there should be...uh...he was interested in having
some younger people come into the council, and he discussed it
with me, and...in fact that he mentioned that ...uh...he'd also
talked to my sister. And uh...he'd like to know if I'd be interested
in becoming a member of the council. So...I said well...at the time,
there wasn't a whole lot involved, but I could see, just from talking
51
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...with him, that...that things were beginning to...were going to
happen. He was almost...uh...at...complety at this time...the
testimony.,.and all...had just about...I think he might of given...
uh...uh...he'd been to Washington for these last hearings, and uh,
uh...so...he...uh...uh...I was contacted again. And I said, well
yes, I'd be happy to serve. So uh...I met with him at the attorney's
office...in 1966.
I: At Rosell's ?
S: Lawyer Tucker's office.
I: Mr. Tucker?
S: Yeah...in Atfmore. That night I was installed as a new council
member. That same night...I wrote a check for fifty dollars. This
was to pay for the attorney's fees for going to Washington to
uh...uh...Mr. Tucker, and Mr. Rosell...were uh...uh...for some
work that they were doing in the Claim...the case had been
settled. But there was some...still some preliminary work and all
that had to be done, and the attorneys had to go and...uh...they
needed those attorneys there and what have you to...for the
settlement and all. And we had to send them. So each one of the
council members gave fifty dollars. And with Calvin I think it
was seven...we needed seven hundred and fifty dollars. We gave fifty
dollars each. Even Uncle Dave...poor old Uncle Dave.
I: Dave who?
52
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Dave Presley, he's dead and gone. But he got...went to the bank
and borrowed fifty...the.....the money to give those attorneys.
And uh...uh...that was my introduction to the council. That was
the begirng.
I: Was this a common practice for council members to take money out
of their own pockets to finance things?
S: Ever since I've been a member of the council, I have pa d dearly
for...uh...uh...it's...it's been more ...uh...I have received no
compensation...none what so ever from the activities that I have
been involved in. I gave uh...the last...this particular...the
last claims case...and uh...uh...the last hearing, where Chief
McGhee went to Washington...uh...well, when he was called there
when uh...uh...Lawyer Thompson...Lenore Thompson, and claiming
;-
that was...uh...had applied for...uh...his expense account to be
payed out of this judgement. Something in the...uh...like $66,000.
I gave chief McGhee my credit cards. And he drove to Washington
on my credit cards...returned back...it was seventy something
dollars worth of...uh...gas bills that I payfd for that...myself.
Now this does...this doesn't count...doesn't take into consideration
the countless number of times...it's been five dollars here, and
five dollars there for different things. Different funds, and for,
for funds for him to attend...uh..uh...meetings and all in
Washington.
53
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
I: How...how wide a spread do you think there's been in the community
generally? I've heard other people say that they gave a lot of
money...or gave money. Did a...or was there a pretty wide spread
donation of money for things like this?
S: Well, I don't think there was so much donation of money as there
was, you know, one of the things that we found 4eo...the people,
even though they didn't always have the cash money...th had a
means...this means being they would hold these chicken suppers and
things. If Chief McGhee said he needed to go to Washington, or he
needed funds to attend a...to Oklahoma...or different areas in
be half of this claims case, he would uh...hold a.meeting of the
people. And they would bring the food, and then buy it back...you
know. They would prepare it, and then to make up money for him to
make these trips. And you know...I...uh...I might of mentioned, you
know...I did...you talk about the bitter portion...this is why I
think...there is...there was that few that gave to this cause for
so many to have received...to have been in receipt of the benefits
of this case. And this is the one thing that uh...I'll always...uh,
feel that uh...uh...our people...uh...those that...home in general
I'll say...in the Atjmore area...in the community. We're the ones
that uh...provided the funds for Calvin. The general...the main funds,
for him in the...going to Washington and testifying at these...on
these claims cases. And...and going to Washington to uh...to get
54
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: togetherr the...the information for proof of...uh...uh...
geneology on all the different Indians. To have those that live in
surrounding areas to have just...came in...and really the...probably
the most that they pafd...if any...and I...was the little uh...that
portion which he might have charged them for filling out any uh...
forms.
I: Well, what was the motivation for people to give this kind of service
and money?
S: Well, uh...we had heard...of course...here we were...giving this
uh...money...in behalf of this land claims case...with the idea...I
think most people went under the impression...you see...the older
people in general...that here was...uh...three and a half million
dollars...and it was going to be distributed among about eight
hundred people.
I: Um huh.
S: That's the most that they could see...was no more than the
community. Where as...uh...uh...we were talking about...when the
...the role was taken........when those government forms were
issued...there was something like forty nine thousand five hundred
applicants, who applied for...for uh...for part of this judgement.
I: So...back even in the sixties there were some people who thought
tWre -rit. be a pretty big return for the chicken suppers and
things that they were doing?
55
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Oh yes! Yes...we...they thought that they would get at least several
thousand dollars.
I: Un huh.
S: Well you...it was almost common to hear some of the old ones..."Boy
when we get our Indian money."
I: Um huh.
S: Well...you would think...uh..the...just...for them to speak of it
that highly, they would have to have been thinking in terms of
more money than we actually received.
I: Now what about the people I've heard this one and that one...who
steadfastly said there's nothing to it. Didn't even bother to
register in those days? What...what was different about them
that they weren't interested?
S: Well in any situation...as in...with any people or group of people,
there's always those that are going to...that feel...felt like
that the...well if uh...so and...if uh...John my brother is going
to get any money I will too. I'll receive my fair share.
I: Um huh.
S: Well, as you and I know...that in order for John to have received
it, he first had to prove himself that he was of Indian decent,
and go back to the...these uh...ancesters that uh...that Calvin
had uh...and during all these trips to Washington doing various
research that he had Looduced, that he felt that uh...the
56
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: government would accept as proof...and which they did. They
accepted all of the proof that he had.
I: Yeah.
S: And...uh...so uh...it just...just the general disbelief uh...that
uh...I guess...and the feeling...and uh...and the fact that they
felt like...uh...and too there was the rumors that existed that
uh...uh...Calvin was in it to make himself independently wealthy.
And uh...this was just a racket he had. And you go down there and
give him your money...he...what did you have...he filled out a
form...he kept it. You had nothing to show that uh...he uh...really
actually did you any service...which was untrue...because if he
completed forms for you he gave you a receipt showing that-you had
paftd those...forthe...that service. Which...there are those that
uh...did...I would say...uh...financially did well. Because of the
...the fees that they charged for doing this service...for producing
this information for those people who...indeed said they were
Indian...Creek Indian...and had uh...sollicited and hired these
people to do research for them.
I: -------------- ---------- -----?
S: Uh...not in the community there, but that...those that live in the
uh...Pensacola Mobile area. And.. and...Ba jinette.. .uh...
So uh...that was the uh...just a general feeling I think uh...
uh...that they just...it was just...uh...some of them accepted
the fact well if my brother, or my sister receives these funds,
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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: then I'll receive my share too.
I: So it sounds like...things began to shape up in my mind a little
bit better...that there were some people who felt like...by
investing this money...they were going to get a big return.
Possibly thousands of dollars. Yet there were other people who
even went so far as to feel like it was just a racket...that they
weren't going to get anything out of it. Did this ever cause any
conflicts in the community of any kind...between those two kinds
of people?
S: Yes...uh...uh...to some extent...that we'd got to the point there
where...uh...you know...in our little community...when I say our
little community...I...mine...commonly referred to as Heapoeeda,
uh...I don't know...we...they always supported Calvin. They really
believed in him, and the thing that he was doing. They felt like,
it was in behalf of the Creek Indian. Excuse me. Uh...and uh...they
just uh...if he told them, or asked them to have a supper, and to
bring uh...tell his family...ask them to...you bring the chickens,
and you bring the lettuce and tomato...that particular family,
you make potato salad, you bring bread.,..they did. And they believed
in him. Now I...you can't uh...it's not always uh...well uh...I
know this to be fact...we didn't always have...he didn't always
a ao
have that support from the PO/ch and Hog Fork Pommunities. They
were a lot less...uh...uh...willing to really...uh...to put any
effort into it. Now here ag..n...uh...if you start looking at your
58
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: (;,.membership of the council...you'll...uh...in the earlier days,
your representation of your council...in our community...we had
81
two members. Now Porch there was Uncle Dave...which he was a very
old man...really you just...he was more of a...just a...a vote, or
a fixture than...to really be fully objective, and to do the job
that...uh...that is required to really express his opinion and all,
he just wasn't that active, and his health was failing too.
So...they did....
I: This is Molly's husband?
S: Molly's husband. And uh...he just...uh...all he could ever tell
you or anything...he went to a meeting, and they did the...Calvin
wanted so and so, and they agreed. They...or it was just generally
accepted. Oh...there's another trip for Washington...going to have
another supper. I didn't know when all of this was going to stop
you know. And uh...often I thought about it uh...how..,..the things
that must have preyed on Chief McGhee's mind...and to think. And
then in those latter two or three years...to...I know before his
death...I spent an evening...one...he and I talked for some three
to four hours. About theJe things that we should...perhaps the
time was now. There had been so much time, and all of our energies
exhausted in this land claims case. But...it was important because
this was the only way actually that we were ever going to get the
recognition that we were entitled to. And at least we had gained
a spokesman. Through him...uh...and the time was now...for us to
59
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...uh...to...to go in different directions...seeking more...uh...
uh...help for our people. Because uh...and different areas.
I: Such as?
S: Such as...health and uh...uh...and uh...living conditions and uh,
perhaps uh...uh...to...additional educational facilities and uh...
uh...organizations of intramural athletic leagues and this type
thing.
I: Had he shown no interest in that himself?
S: Uh...yes he had, but of course his uh...main uh...uh...the whole
uh...of his entire last twenty years involved this land claims case.
You have to remember he was uh...this was a very trying time...uh...
uh...during this time that uh...if it hadn't been for this man...and
I know to be a...for a fact...that he mortgaged his home...more
than once. He borrowed money...more than one time. And just...just
because that he believed that this was the only way that we were...
this...this land claims case...the settlement of it meant that the
recognition it would give the Creek Indian in Alabama...and east
of the Mississippi...that recognition that they were due.
I: Why do you think he was so driven to get the...?
S: Well, for that one reason...I think. Uh...because uh...uh...and
here again...probably because...he had worked so long and so hard
in behalf of this that he had uh...uh...this was the only thing
really that at the time...and not really having a council that
60
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: A4was willing to...to present new ideas, and...and new direction,
and...and all...that this was really all he could uh...uh...the,
the significant thing he saw that must be settled.
I: Now do you feel like he had any broader ideas than just getting
the money, and getting the recognition...or what was it he was
really after?
S: Yes uh...uh...he uh...at different times, I know in talking with
him, he uh...uh...there were...in the...in the latter years you
know, he served on the Little River Community Action Program.
Well this was your program through OEO. Uh...this was an opportunity
he saw for...uh...for example Federal Housing. And uh...
I: Did you all get it?
S: Uh...well...we...we could...uh...if you applied for it. Uh...it
was available.
I: Um huh.
S: Federal services, and other, you know...uh...grants for education
this type thing. And uh...uh...health and welfare. And uh...he
was very interesred...and too...uh...I think uh...and I know, uh
he wanted to have uh...ang area...or a home perhaps for the aged.
Uh...the Indian...uh/ you know, the one thing that we were always
uh...uh...we had that love for one another. Clannish in that
respect I suppose. Uh...but...you know...I...he could go, and this
61
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: fis one of the things now that Chief McGhee and I disagreed on.
And certain...I have to be specific in this to give you a
certain example. I had a relative,.Brooks Rolin ,wwho at one
time was a council member. And Brooks at one time was a very
active man in the community...he made numerous trips to Washington
with Calvin, and traveled extensively with Calvin throughout the
uh...Alabama...made several trips to Oklahoma...in behalf of this
Land Claims Case. He was also a Holiness-preacher. Uh...I can
remember the...my really...and probably the most significant one
in my teen years...he was a very prominent preacher. He and his'
wife Lela, they used to preach and sing together. Uh...I know of
...well, they used to attend various Holiness churches. Uh...
holding uh...what do you call them.. .evivals...and this type
thing. Uh...but.. .somewhere.. .somehow or another...te had a...
they...there was a separation of the two, and uh...he went his di-
fferent...they went uh...different ways. And I'm not sure if
they finally divorced...and they have not...I don't think they did.
But he became involved with another woman. He later took that
woman's life. Now Calvin...as well as some others...uh...felt like
uh...he...even though he had taken this persons life...that he was
not to be judged equally...this is the opinion that I got...uh...
for his crime. This is where I differed with him very strongly.
To me...any person...has uh...committed a crime, which is of a
uh...detrimental to the laws of this country...which I'm a citizen,
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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...I think they should be punished for it. That's my belief.
Uh...I...I...I believe in the system that much. And uh...I, at
one time Calvin and I discussed this. And I said uh...after I
was on the council...and I said...told Calvin...I said, Calvin...
I'm sorry, but that's just my feelings. He's a blood relative.
My dad's very own nephew...but to me...he had no right to take
another individual's life. Now...true enough...I think a person,
to justg.go and take another ones life...there has to be a moment
uh...the time that uh...they...this...they're not...they don't
realize what has happened. But to me this doesn't excuse them.
And this is where our laws...uh...we have made our laws to take
care of these people...and they punish with it. And I think this
uh...uh...I also feel that in doing this...God gave us the minds,
and knowledge to...to create these laws to live by...as he gave
us the Ten Commandments to live by...those were his laws. He so
gave us that freedom to govern ourselves...and uh...we...we have
to do that. So that was one way we...uh...we did differ there.
But you know...uh he uh...he said uh...he didn't tell me...he
said uh...he didn't say that I was wrong...he said...I remember,
he commented that you -are very right. And if that is your feeling,
then...then you should live by your convictions. And I said, that's
what it is. And I''l never do nothing...uh...I feel like he had a
trial...he was convicted...he...uh...the system...through the
no oo
system of our laws and all, and -uh.if uh...if you feel that he
63
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: wasn'tt given a fair trial, then that's your...that's...but
I just don't have the time and all to go around...uh...trying
to determine whether they did or not. I said...you know, and I
know that he took this individual's life. Now we know that. And
uh...to me...I said that no...not...nothing else needs to be
established. Uh...but uh...that was just one example of uh...of a
difference.
I: Did he try to get this person out or something?
S: Well, he felt like at least...he said that...his trial...he
should have been accorded a better trial. And I'm sure, perhaps
given with some of your more...probably uh...maybe uh...your more
uh...lawyers that were capable of handling this type of criminal
cases...trial lawyers...it's a possibility that he could have
been freed. But uh..I...I just didn't feel that myself. And I
just didn't feel that I had...was in...it was up to me to go
around to try and I didn't want to be a part of the council if it
was going to uh...uh...solicit uh...uh...reopen the hearing...uh...
on behalf of this one individual. I felt like there were things
that...more pressing things within the community...and for the
Indian people that we could do as a body...and should do...and
uh...and we...he agreed. Uh...and...and I...and as I explained to
him...I said as I explained to you...the night when I accepted
this job...I uh...pointed out to you people...the council members
64
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: (Athere...some direction I thought and would like to see. And
I said these are the things I'm interested in. I want to see
some things for our...for our young people. We need to...to
teach our young people the value of an education. This business
of dropping out to go into seventh and eighth grade...and
traveling all over the country...uh...uh having a job picking
tomatoes here today-iand tomorrow another state gathering
tobbacco*-.and this type thing. Life has more meaning than that.
And I think this is...this is the type of direction we have a
very...we need to work very hard with our young people in stress-
ing this..,.and that's just one area. And for our aged there is...
and a dental problem. I said that we know that uh...we need to...
some dental care and this type thing. This is what...this is the
new direction I want to see the council go in. Surely...we acting
as a group representing...I mean a body representing a group of
people...poor people...and in a lot of instances very poverty
stricken...therels things that we can do to help them...and that's
what I want to do. And uh...so...I said this is the rededication,
I said if uh...I'd like to...I said to me the Land Claims Case,
with the exception of the roll being completed...is settled. This
is the rededication and the new direction I would like to see
the council of the Creek Nation east of the Mississippi...uh...
set its new goals and ideals...to.
65
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
I: Uh...with that in mind...how does the idea of...well like the
thing you had just this past week at the Cordova Mall here...the
Indian arts and crafts...how does the specifically Indian aspect
fit in to what you describe as your goals for a group of poor
people?
S: Well...you know the one thing that uh...having to...having
uh...and uh...lived here in Alabama, and grew...lived in Alabama
rather...and uh...after the...the Creek Indians supposedly had...
were to...moved out. But there was soi many things as far as our
cultures, and our crafts, and various arts and things that we have
just lost. And uh...there's a generation...generations...of uh...of
young and old...who haven't the slightest idea of what the Creek
Indian life was like of our early ancestors. And what...I feel
that...well...at least...why shouldn't we make an effort to at
least give them...uh...to...to get some of this in formation
together. And perhaps set up a center...and teach our people some
of their early customs and crafts...and...and some of the culture.
And perhaps....
I: What value does that have?
S: Well it...at least it would uh...ke p the...I would think...the
Creek Indian from becoming totally extinct. Uh...at least...would
uh...uh...have uh...I would hope that for each one...it would give
them an opportunity to uh...really be proud of their Indian anceser"*
66
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Just to...so often I've heard that uh...and been asked...what
does it mean to be an Indian...uh...uh...I'll have to stop and
think...now uh...first I...1...I'll have to stop and think...well
now...what is the purpose in this question...what do you want to
know...are you asking me am I an Indian...if I am an Indian...
how do you...how am I supposed to know you're an Indian. Are you
expecting because I say I'm Indian...am I supposed to be different
or look different maybe. Uh...or just what do you mean. Now this
to me...before I can answer that question I have to at least
expound on these things to really uh...try to give you an answer.
And now to me...uh saying...I am a Creek Indian...o.k. what does
that mean. Uh...well, I was born, I have Creek Indian parents, I
was reared really what I had thought and to be a white society.
This is what I thought. But then I think back...uh...and after
looking back upon the way that our people had lived, and...the
...the different way that we lived and grew up...uh...that...we
have an identity there. But as far as living in uh...tepees, and,
and uh...being reservated...and just being set apart...we weren't.
We had our:own homes...uh...such as they were. Uh...and which
today are one hundred per cent improved...twenty years ago.
67
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Uh...as uh...uh...as...as we just created more of a lifestyle of
our own, bmt perhaps patterned after the white man. But yet still,
because we were uh...as a group of people we were sort of set
apart by...I...I think of our own choosing. Those that chose to
live elsewhere...they live in the society and environment they're
in. They uh...uh...do the things that they want to do.
I: Hold it just a second....
END TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE.
68
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
TAPE TWO, SIDE TWO.
S: Now if...if uh...in doing whatever they want to do...if...if
this sets them apart, or establishes for them a lifestyle which
is Indian, or non-Indian, or uh...or whatever they are...are
living or trying to project...the image that they want to project.
Then uh...to me this uh...this indeed...uh...would...would be...uh,
I think we should uh...make available to these people...at least
give them the opportunity to be aware of some of their own basic
customs that our ancestors did. Some of their...their...their...uh,
their dress...their...their different...say their...their...the
way that they prepared certain foods...uh the herbs and all that
they made for medgcine...uh the uh...some of their crafts and all,
just uh...these things in general. Now by this I don't mean that
just reverting back to..uh...the lifestyle of just living like
this. It's not possible. There's no way in the world it can be
done. But the fact that I do have...I feel just as the other races,
the Italians, the Jewish race, or any other race...they want to
retain some of that...that ancestry. They know that uh...uh...they
uh...well, take for instance your Italians...those that live in
America...or your...your...your uh...Germans...or any other uh...
69
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...race of people. Uh...if they come to America to live...they...if
they had wanted to continue in the lifestyle and all that the...uh,
that country...I'm sure that they would have preferred to stay there.
Be...but because of the change and all...uh they saw and wanted
to...uh...to do...they chose to go elsewhere. Well, the...the
Indian is here. He...he hasn't gone anywhere.
I: Um huh.
S: Unfortunately...uh...the Indian has been hampered...uh...by the
uh...sort of...I think he's a victim of his own circumstances.
I: In what way?
S: Uh...$he uh...he was used. And the fact...because that he wasn't,
you had those people that uh...that came here...those people that
came...and the Indian...uh...these people came...they were foreign
to the land. The Indian taught these people their living conditions,
and taught them how to uh...,they uh...adjust to the new area,
and they helped them. In the beginning the Indian...uh...this is
one of the things that uh...distresses me about some uh...the Indian
has always been...uh...portrayed and projected...in a lot of cases
as...as a vicious person...with just a killer instinct almost.
And it's because that they have...they were...these wrongs that
they were done. And uh...uh...uh...it's uh...these things are
disturbing in a sense, but I know, and I feel that I'm in no posittion,
70
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: yyrand I don't feel any Indian is really to...to really go
screaming and hollering...this is my land...and this belongs to
me. Well, look...I just lived here for the last thirty-two years.
Well, who am I to say it belongs to me? I have to I think in order
for something to belong to me, I have to get out and earn it, and
have the right to have it. Uh...but uh...in this situation it's
quite different. Uh...we know that there are treaties. I know
it in our own Creek Nation...that the government has uh...uh
made with our people, and that were broken. Well...this is just
again...we just didn't have those leaders or those people strong
enough to really stand up. It was easier to step aside and just be
pushed aside than to really...to...to uh...fight the establishment.
I: Do you think the government still has an obligation to Indians
even though that was done twenty...thirty...forty...hundreds of
years ago?
S: Uh I think perhaps...uh...that uh...
I: In other words is a contract made between your great grandparents
and the government...should that apply today?
S: Well it all depends on just to what extent this contract has to
be fulfilled. Now if it means...say we're...I...we're in...uh,
my home...or what I'm buying now...I'm paying for this. Now...if
it means going...say...I know this is probably going to the
extreme...but if...if it were to come to this...say in taking
what belonged to my neighbor...something that he's worked for
71
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: SM.and earned...I don't think that would be wrong. I think perhaps
what could...there could be a compensation made. I think...I'm
just not in favor at all...I don't see the need...I think the
government could really...and uh...in the situation with the
Indian...uh...uh...I just thank my god every day...that I didn't
grow up on a reservation. Uh...I can really see no-good that
these...a reservation does. And why...the government continues
to re...really segregate a bunch of people here...say because you
are Indian...you live there...when this is a free country. And
why...as progressive as this country is...why that uh...the/....
the.i...the agency that has been established...to represent the
Indians...to really...to me...as to why it can not really...uh...
get into the problems, and the situations of...of uh...going into
these areas...and really helping these people, and in that manner,
rather than just sticking them off out into an area and saying...
uh...this is what your forefathers wanted for you...this is it...
you take it now...and what little subsistence you're going to get
we'll give to you. I...I think that uh...in or...uh...that this
is the only way the Indian is going to be helped. Given...if they'd
just split it up and to who...what...those that live on it...give
them ten or fifteen acres or however much there is...or let them...
uh...look...section it off...this is ten acres for you...all right
72
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ,,&now you work for this. After you've pa/d for this then it
becomes yours to do with as you want. And...and train) you know,
work with these people...and...and...this is the only way we're
going to really uh...
I: Well...how...how does that fit with your feelings about...your
own...your own situation up there with the grant land for example?
S: Well uh...it gets back to...here again...we had a situation that
the grant lands...they were given for service. They were taken
away...uh...from uh...uh...the Indians when they were...uh...uh
the gift was taken, and...from them...excuse me...when it became
uh...when there were tax...when they...oh let's see...when the
uh...when the...it was originally as a gift for service. All right,
there were those that...who lived on the lands, and are continuing
to living on the lands...who through the process of law and all
within the state of Alabama...those grant lands have...they...now
they have become taxable. The only thing that I think I resent
most about the...the whole situation is the fact...is those
individuals the way they were taken advantage of, and in...in...in
different instances the way the lands have been taken from them...
because...
I: All right...you would see nothing wrong with just splitting the
grant land up amongst those who lived on it?
S: Yes. Yes. I wouldn't. I have no animosity against...I would want
73
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: .any of it.
I: Um huh.
S: Uh...if those...I would be happy...if right now...or else if
they maybe...if they could just say take an area...or a section
of it...and say uh...for the older people...build an old folks
home or something of this nature. And then...uh...something that
could be uh...we have uh...we have some trained...uh...nur...
Indian nurses now, and we have other people...I think would be
interested in coming and working in there...something of this
nature. Uh...but other than that to uh...to uh...uh...let those
families...I...I would I think...uh...I would still like to see
since it was given to the Indians for the service...I think I'd
like to see Indians remain with it.
I: Um4...do you think there is a place for...analogus to a public
park...a piece of land that belongs to the whole community of all
the Indians...sort of like a corporation owned land...or not...in
this particular situation?
S: It's possible...yes...it could be...but uh....of course you would
have to...you'd have to have a lot of cooperation of all the
people. They would have to be...uh...have to really understand
just what it was...and...and it would be up to them to support a
...a program of this nature. And uh...uh...they could capitalize
off of it, and the fact that they could, if they wanted to...uh,
74
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: ...let's face it...the American public today is very much...Indian
aware.
I: Yeah.
S: They're interested...and they realize the fact that...the...the
American Indian is a forgotten American...the American. And uh...
it's time to...we...that uh..-waveehewa.the country...uh...really
initiate programs to...that are beneficial for them, rather than
just saying that...you're entit...you're welcome to live on the
reservation, and we'll take care of you. Which...I'm...I believe
that uh...the old story that uh..."Idleness is the devil's work
shop." We...uh...we have to...I see so many examples just right
up there in that...at hom...that little community at home. A
people just having nothing to do. And not really applying themselves.
Uh they have the potentiality...but they uh...they have to really
uh...you have to really ajemotivate yourself. Uh...success 4
is determinedin the individual. Just how successful you are is
just...uh...means really...just how determined you are...the sky
is the limit. And uh...this is uh...true of uh...uh...of anyone.
Uh...and...I'm...I don't like to pat myself on the back by no means,
but...I...uh...I'd like to think if uh...if I wasn't interested
in trying to uh...really uh...look at life...and uh...as such,
and prepare myself to want the nicer things in life...I could be
like others, and just hold my hands and do nothing. But...that
75
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: 4icertainly...I certainly wouldn't be...uh...uh...^9qeddoing the
wishes...that uh...of...of my...my parents and my family. I
think a family is/, whether it be Indian or any family.er.uh...
morally...uh you know what is...to me that pride in that family is,
to really show yourself...to really...the achievement, the accomp-
lishments that you make really...uh...is an example of the things
that you were taught in your childhood...from the beginning. And
this is uh...uh...it's for everyone, and everybody. And this is
important. And...
I: Let's come back to another point...on this business of...Indian,
Indian identity. And...I remember when...I guess when I first met
you...how you said that...you had always said...that it...you'd
never put on an Indian suit to prove you were an Indian or something
like that...but that you had begun to change your mind...and I'd
really be curious to know your feelings about your original
position, and then why you changed?
S: Now I' think what I had said, and uh...I have said uh...and I still
believe...if I have to wear feathers, and put on a costume to
prove that I'm Indian...to lell with it. That doesn't make the
Indian. That doesn't make anyone. Now...I have uh...I have uh...
got a costume now, and I wear it. Simply for the fact that...people
as such...as uh...uh...we...we stereotyped one another you know.
76
SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: There's certain things...uh...you see an Indian...you say Indian,
automatically you think of feathers.
I: Um huh.
S: Uh...you think of a certain dress. Which was true...uh...and the
Indian Dress that was uh...uh...the dress that they made...I...I
don't think it was...it was uh made...or uh...for...to really...
uh...set them aside as really as to...to just uh...uh...give uh,
our...usi..our...our class or style, but I think it was pride
in...in making something that looked nice...that...that they really
made these beautiful costumes #d things that they...that they
did...uh I don't...we say costumes, it was dress for them.
I: Their clothes.
S: It was their clothes is right. And uh...nd the fact that they had
such...uh...such...uh originality and creativity and...and allI
I think this...this is where the...the...the...their dress was
unique. And perhaps it...they were classified...to be an Indian
you have to dress like an Indian.
I: Um huh.
S: And to dress like an Indian you have to wear the bright colors
and your...the feathers are all part of it.
I: Um huh.
S: But I've said...I...I still maintain if uh...if...if...if it's to
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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: WICprove to people that I have to dress with feathers and a
costume, and if this meant...uh...an everyday...uh...life...uh
I just couldn't do it. To me it's being presumtuous in just really
demanding and requiring something of me that I'm not.
I: But you are willing to use that to sell a product?
S: That is correct.
I: And what is your ultimate goal in selling that product?
S: It's to...the...the...to uh...revitalize the Indian. To make the
people aware. Uh...the Indian is a...uh...the Indian is a...uh...
uh...a proud person. He should be. We have our heros in our
Indians. Uh...we've had our non-heros as well as others...and
we have them today...I think. Uh...that...that if uh...if uh...
here again I...I don't think...I like to feel that uh...in the
position I am...the people I'm representing...that those people
are proud of what I'm doing...little as it may seem. And the
representation that I give them...where ever I go and if I travel
in their behalf...or whatever I do. And uh...this is the reason...
my reason for...for...I feel...uh...for being involved, and uh...
an active posi tion...uh.. .and telling the story of the Creek
Indian today.
I: Well, you answered the next question I was going to ask, and
that is why do you do it all...and that's it.
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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: Yeah...that's it.
I: What...one last question...looking...say maybe now ten...fifteen...
twenty years into the future what would you like to see in the
future for the Creek Indians...the east?
S: Well, you know, one of the very finest things that I could
think that could ever happen to us all right now...is the interest
that we have.............developed, and uh...uh...not developed,
but...we have stirred...uh...here again I have to...we have uh...
I think of a...there's a time in our church services...that we
have what we call a stir-up Sunday. A time you know...it's time
to...it's that...it's...it'll...just once a year thing...I mean
uh...certain...time that we uh...it's...it's a time...you know we
all have...uh...we're all one to let things just slide by.
And uh...and I'm real proud of the fact that uh...we've got
uh...uh...I...uh...because of uh...uh...our younger people. When
I say our younger people today.......I.... .1..artm;.a generation
other than myself. Uh...that uh...that are...they're coming up.
They're very interested, and uh...the Creek Indians. What it's
all about...what it was, and the history of it. And uh...I would
like to think that in some...perhaps in...maybe fifteen or twenty
years from now...we'll have some Creek Indian doctors and lawyers.
And uh...other uh...uh...scholars...educationpeople and uh...this,
this...this is my point in selling the...uh...the educational idea.
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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: So much of the fact...at least given the opportunity..if that
person has the ability, and the need, and desire, and the want
to do...we will have them. But at least...instill in them...work
with them, and give them that...uh...that chance to really work
in their behalf. And uh...I think with the...uh...the programs
that we've got in mind, and have in mind for our...our people,
and the...with this culture center...if it...if we...it's goes
through hopefully it will, and looks like from all indications...
uh...that uh...uh...we can just uh...perhaps uh...just carry on
some of this tradition...excuse me...and uh...some of this old
uh...older.. perhaps...uh... I would like...I'd be...I'm very
interested in just for...for a standpoint of...uh...just being
able to have some knowledge of the language. Uh...like I say,
first of all I'm an American, and I speak the English language,
but there's a...there's a...nothing wrong for me to want to
speak any other language if I have that interest to...but I would,
since I lRve Creek Indian ancestry, I would like to be able to...
to at least know some of the language. And this....
I: You know...I often have thought about, and wished I could almost
get inside their heads so to speak...but the younger generation
that is coming up now...that never experienced the really harsh
poverty and all of that...the younger Creek Indians...uh... the
ones that are little kids now...that are...that are growing up,
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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
I: .--n and don't have any direct first hand or even second hand
experience with the poverty and the discrimination and so forth...
and at the same time all of their lives have seen Pow/ows and
Indian doings and things...what their feelings about being Indian
are going to be twenty years from now...in the sense that...neither
have they been able to see the contrast to what the old Indian life
that you knew as a boy was like...and they just sort of take as
common ordinary expectation that there will be a Thanksgiving
/-owiow you know...that in a sense the younger generation seems to
almost be growing up in a...in a sense of those cultural things
more Indian than the older people in one way...but less in that
they haven't experienced the...the tradition of Indians in Alabama
from the past hundred years of living on the farm and all of that
kind of thing. I dan't know if you ever...do you ever think about
the attitudes of those younger people that are coming up now?
S: I thought of this...I was thinking about this, this Saturday.
Incidently with uh...Bill...Saturday was the first time that we
used them, but we had uh...I know this is irrelevant what I'm
talking about, but I just have to tell. But uh...we used the
little girls Saturday for the first time. And surprisingly enough
those four little girls went out there and just...and they were...
I: Danced?
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SUBJECT: BUFORD ROLIN
INTERVIEWER: PAREDES
S: And danced!
I: Um huh.
S: Right there, and here were all these hundreds of people surrounding.
And I thought about that. I said...now here we are with these
little four and five years old children...now...in my day as...
just in...you know, as a boy and all...it was never anything
mentioned of this. Then all of a sudden here we are...we're
telling these children...and they're...they're real interested.
And...and...and I...I thought just...uh...well...at least uh...
there'll be us around, and hopefully history will have recorded
too...there was a different society when the...there was...it
was...it was...and here it is begun again.
I: Um huh.
S: At least they'll have that recognition. You know...they'll know,
and uh...be aware of it. And I think it'd be...an outstanding
accomplishment to then think...well my generation is responsible
for revitalizing this.
I: Yeah...it's funny to think of yourself as an old man...
S: Yeah...yeah.
I:,,, selling those children as adults how it was in my day.
S: Yeah.
I: I think that's enough.
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