Title: Interview with Fred Roland (September 7, 1972)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007498/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Fred Roland (September 7, 1972)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: September 7, 1972
Spatial Coverage: Creek County (Fla.) -- History.
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007498
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Creek County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: CRK 23

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Full Text


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and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
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Fred -Re Rolf&et
A. Paredes

P" 77 1r4?2- j 371 m rv Ac F4 4./a'(

R: Well, I'll tell youl. You see, my mother never was married. And, I am

a Rolin, going by my mother's name. But my daddy is a Walker, you see.

P: Uh huh. What was your mother's name?

R: Laurel Lee Roland.

P: Where were you born?

R: Alabama.

P: Which community were you born in?

R: I was born in that Indian reservation up there in Alabama.

P: &dPar6o ?

R: ( That's the name of it.

P: Well, that's where I'm staying this summer myself, so that's why I know

what it's called. What year were you born in?

R: 1896-97, I guess.

P: When you were a boy, could you just talk about how people made their

living back in those days?

R: Well, all I can remember is where they made their living farming.

P: How big were the farms that they had?

R: Oh, all the way from ten to thirty acres.. Some of them had forty

acre farms, you see.

P: What were the main crops that thev grew?

R: Oh, nothing but cotton and corn. Cotton and corn and sugar cane.

P: Did people grow vegetables back in those days?

R: Yes, they raised a garden.

P: What kind of vegetables did they have in their garden?


Page 2

R: Collard greens, turnip greens, string beans, peas, and one thing of another -

things like that, you see.

P: How kam about hot peppers?

R: Well, they had that too hot peppers, had big old bell peppers.

P: Did they grow any cuccumbers back in those early days?

R: Yeah, they had cuccumbers.

P: Were those for selling or just for eating?

R: Just for eating. They put it up, you see, and can it up Can it and put

it up in jars.

P: Did people have to buy very much in the stores back then?

R;. I don't think they did not that I remember.

P: Do you remember going to town when you were small?

R: Yeah, yeah.

P: How did you get to town?

R; Walked.

P: You walked to town?

R; Yeah.

P: All the way to Atmore? e
(UL". ClJ4 afjt you&r VO .SeMoQr
R: All the way to Atmore from es, sir Well, I bought me a horse, but

I never did hitch him up to a wagon. I always rode him. When I got through--

When I was walking to town, I got the horse and rode him.

P: Did you ever flag the train to town?

R: No, I don't think so. SL 1

P: Were there some that would go iit-lli2c.he'wieeh and flag the train down?

R; You mean, you talking about that* there, I belive they used to call:S c

"rF--fsCo the Deepwater route. Oh yeah, I flagged that thing down a million


Page 3

P: Did you get it right there at or did you ... *

R: Al p-reh twitch.

P: Perth witch. But many times, you just walked into town?

R: Oh, yeah.

P: Was there a good road into town, or what?

R: Yeah, good highway, you see. Main highway from _uro_ ,

P: Was itpaved at that time?

R: No.

P: What kind of things would people buy when they went to town? Since they

didn't have to buy much food, what did they do in town?

R: Oh, Lord) Just messed around there and go back home is all I can tell.

P. Was there much drinking going on in town?

R; Yeha, there's a lot of it in the country, too, when they could get it.

You see, in them days, people had to order their liquor.

P: They did?

R; Yes, sir. They would go up there in the depot there in Atmore see and

order it. Only way they could get it was from bootleggers I reckon, but

they would order it.

P: They didn't sell it right in Atmore?

R: No@, they didn't sell none of it then. You see my unclde would order it

from Jimmy Johns..

P: WUat was your uncle's name?

R: Alec Roland.. He would order them from Jimmy Johns and take that out vn

__rr__ Take it out in the country and it'd last him a week

or two.

P: Would he sell it to other people when he got out in the country?

R: No, he wouldn't sell it. Just drink it, you see. Keep it for himself


Page 4

to drink.

P: You mentioned your uncle, Alec Roland. Was he any kind of a leader among

the people?

R: No, you see in them days, people didn't have no leader, but later on,

they had a leader then. I don't know what good i- ;w&d do, but ... C Viel

McGhee was a kind of leader among those Indians up there, but ...

Well, I don't ... I reckon he was.

P: What made him a leader?

R; God knows.

0: I think he had one of the bigger farms and then he got a paper wood

trucks and then just give all the younger ones jobs On the paper wood.

P: That was Mr. Roland's daughter speaking there. Your name is Ola, and your

name is David. The reason I ask that, i dron: om tl n in some of

the older Episcopal church records, sometimes it put down your uncle

as Chief Alec Roland the first ever baptised in the Episcopal church.

Why did they call him chief, do you think?

R: I don't know, unless he was just appointed chief.

P: By whom?

R;; That's getting too far back-PirmV
P: Did 4g have a pretty big place there?

R: Yeah, he had a big place.

P: Was he on the grant land or not?

R: No, he wasn't. He bought his land, but that old grant land, it was all

over the place up there.

P: But your Uncle Alec he bought his piece of land?

R: Yeah.

Page 5

P: Do you remember him, when you were small, ever telling stories what it was

like then he was a boy? What kind of man was he?

R: He was a good fellow.

P: Did he like to drink?

R: All I can tell you, he was a liquor man.

P: Was there an awful lot of drinking back in those days?

R: Right smart, when they could get it.

P: Would people stay at home and drink or were there juke joints to go to?

R: Well, there wasn't no juke joints in those days. I don't remember none.

When they get that liquor, they'd stay home and drink it. When I used

to run about and play music myself, I never did play out of my home

becausekiipiHyix I pla ed Cam. Vp4 iC4- -

P: How did you get started doing that?

R: Oh, I just picked it up.

P: I mean, how did you get started going outside and not playing with

your own folks?

R: Well, everybody knowed I was a fiddler, you know, and everybody come after

me when they would have a big bash, yojsee, they'd come hunt me up.

P: But you said you never played for a dance with your own folks?

R: No, sometimes I sort of played for a little old dance thing J assHe

' .f( bunch. There wasn't hardly nobody to dance. There wasn't many young girls

in my people, you see. I'd go all over the country and play for other

people, you see.

P: Where were some of the places you played?

R: Oh, McCullough, Alabama, Atmore, Alabama, BreW Alabama, and everywhere.

Way on up in, I can't think of the place now, but I used to go up in there

with an old man by the name of MVrris Wasborn. We'd stay gone for a week

or two.

CRK 23A, page 6

P: Would he take you around to different places?

R: We'd do nothing but run about S/f fdd. C $)

P: Can you think back and just remember what one of those dances was like?

Tell me how they got organized and where they were held and what they did.

R: Well, folics or a dance, along in those days, they called them frolics..

You see, he would give them frolics out and invite everybody and when they

would get them parties, you would see everybody just have a full house

just dance and dance until broad daylight.

P: Were these in peoples' houses.

R: Yes, they would have them in houses, you know. Like David and Ola here,

you see. They'd give a party and everybody would come to it, you see.

P: What did 9 do with the furniture?

R: We moved it out of the way. Where we wld have plenty of room.
0 P'dl? 4tI1- <-o M VkVVT &s;t ftL L fJA Sr\r t VW
he fiddle bows come out, you see, I got me a little stick about that long

and I whittled it out like a fiddle bow, you know, and I put me some

horsehair in there, tail for thread, and I just catch a horse and cut out

that long ahir in his tail about that long and fixed that in my fiddle bow.

P: You made your own fiddle bow, then?

R: Yeah, made my own fiddle bow.

P: Did you ever know of anybody around there who made their own fiddle?

R: No, I don't. But I believe a fellow made one of these old syrup CaL_ .

Remember when the syrup came in these old long high cans. Made a banjo

out of one of tem. That was as good a banjo as ever were.

P: Who was that?

R: I made one.
P : \ &A ivK' Jlp e, OV )
d) What did you use for strings on that?

R: I put steel strings on that. The neck was made out of poplar wood, you see.

Something that would cut soft and scrape off soft.. You had to level it down

smooth, you see.

Page 7

N: How did you make the keys?

R: I-took a little knife and tkExhmas kept hi a bone you know., and put a

hole through there for the keys, you see. Four in the front and one for

the thumb down here.

N: Did you have to the frets marked off on it?

R: Ye ah, yeah. Why no, we didn't have no frets on it then.

N: You just played wherever your fingers fit?
,+ we, I
R: Where your finger fit, that 's where ou played.

N: Do you remember did the dances have names that you did?

R: No, no. They didn't have no names. Only thing I know, just the band

that give them.. his name.

N: The different dances that people would do .. dA did they have names

like Virginia Reel?

R: No, they didn't know what that was.

N: Were they square dances, though ?

R: Well, no, &! round dancer. Everybody would ring up, you see and have a

partner. Like me and her partner, she'd get somebody for her partner,

somebody else would get v somebody for their partner, they'd ring up in

that ring, you see, and go to dancing and they called a set out)you see* 0

Everybody noW out to the right and swing a cheat...
N: SBkig-a what?

R: Swing a cheat. You see, the men would come out there and dance x around
-r4tl &a the women and then ;4t m4n they would swing, and then the women

would come out and dance around another man and then she'd swing.

0: I believe k that's called square dancing.

N: You call it a round dance?


Page 8

R: Well, a round dance xwkht is what we used to call them. Women get together

and dance by themselves, you see... hug up and swing and dance, you know.
+TH4A Qof"r-
That's what we used to call a round dance. yi-mrurl, a regular old

square dance.

N: On the round dance, did the people move around in a little circle?

R: No, they used to move about backwards and forwards across the floor.

N: I know you were a fiddler and not a caller, but could you just do a

little bit of calling like they used to do in those days?

R: Well, we had a man caller... I never did call, I just played.

N: Just even though it may not have been like it was, do it like it sounded

to you) then.

R: Oll the way round, swing a cheat, first lady out to the right. Way around

the lady, 3EtmrdxiExgnxk,gent around the gent, all such as that you know.

N: Thank you. This that you're going to do now is a tom tom beat. Was

this something they did aixpar'xaBf1nxac g during the dance as part of the music?

R: Yep. Everybody round would clap their hands. Eveeybody would clap their


N: Do it on the chair for me.
r(oQ&-^ CA al"s 4-f-t* lom 7D
R: See, they'd dance for the rest of the )A t dancing you see. People clapping

their hands, you see.

N: Mr. Rolin is going to do one more chorus of tom tom beating on the chair.

R: I could do better, ht this arm is stiff, you know.

N: Well, that sounds mighty good to me. Now, is this something that every bdy,

whether they were Indian or white, did at the dances, or...

R: Everybody did that.

N: Do you remember whether the Indian folks did different than the white folks

at their dances?

CRK 23A, page 9

R: No, they all danced just alike from what I know. You see, when I'd go

about aid play for them dances, everybody danced just alike to me.

P: Nobody danced different?

R: No difference.

P: Was there any differences in besides the dancing say, something like

eating or drinking?

R: No.

P: They're all just the same?

R: All just the same.

P: Now, in the hdian community up there, how did somebody get ready to have

a dance? How did amebody organize a dance? Who decided when to have them)

and so forth?

R: The man and the wife had to decide when to have them, you see. The man

would tell hiSwife were gonna have a big blow-out. We'll have a big dance

and invite everybody over to it. The one that was having the party would

have a cake this big round and they'd sell that cake, you see, and keep the

money. That's the way they had to getting money along, you see. That

cake would bring $15 or $20. So, they'd keep that cake and sell it for

that money and keep it.

P: Do you remember where they had a dance and didn't sell the cake?

R: I sure don't.

P: What about things like barn raising and log raising? Did they ever have

dances on those times?

R: No, they just had a big dinner for them days. The fellow who had the log

tolling and things would have a big dinner. Everybody would work until noon

Page 10

R: come in for dinner... some of them would go back that evening and some would

go home, you see.

P: Do you remember whether there were dances held for a special occasion, say

for a birthday or somebody going off to the army or something like that?

R: No, Isure don't. We would have a dinner and things for the birthday, you


P: Incidentally, did you ever serve in the army?

R: Yeah.

P: Which war were you in?

R: Number o e.
.;D? Wo r R rW.
P: Tell me about your army experiences.. how you got in and where you went

and all that.

R: I got in. I was drafted in, you see. When I went in, I was 22 years old.
Ifj r
I come out and went home and so, that'sqbout all I can tell you abit that.

P: Where did you go when you went in?

R: Oh, South Carolina and Camp iVf a one place and another. I done

forgot all them places.

P: Did you go overseas to France?

R: No, I didn't go. Well, I was fixing to go over. One morning I woke up

and was fixing to leave 4iidy morning, I believe, and wnke up and

everything out there was blowing all kinds of whistles. Everybody run

out there to see what was going on and somebody, some soldier come in there

and said) dZnt got to go/ he war's over, hes over over And so we

didn't go you see.

P: I guess you were happy.

R: Everybody was happy.

P: Did you go off to the army with Isaac McGhee?


Page 11

R: Yeah, I believe Isaac McGhee went off and stayed...

N: Were you all together in the same camp is wha4 I mean.

R: Well, yeah. I was in one place, thought and he was in another. I was

in one company and kExwx him another, you see. He didn't stay there

but for two days. They sent him back. He was crippled anyhow, you know.

N: Could you think back and tell me the names of as many people as you can

remember who went to the army when you did?

R: It's been so long, it's pretty hard to remember. I know a 1 ot of tem,

but I don't spe-ct I can hardly think of them now. Yea' __ McGhee

s in the Iinbow Division, and Riley McGhee was in the Rainbow Division,

:iUland McGhee was in the Rainbow Division. What's that? (re: a picture)

Oh, that was one of my old buddies/AlJ ;A 4A

N: Where was your old buddy from?

R: Oh, he was from North Carolina, I believe, it was N.C.

N: What was his name?

R: Charles, I think. It's been so long since I've messed with them thin;Cs.

N' Had you ever been far away from home before?

R: Oh, yeah.

N: Where did you travel before you were in the army?

R; All over Miss, La, evezqwhere.

N: What were you doing over there?

R: Messing around.

N; Were you working any? Were you fiddling?

R: Oh, everywhereSI8d stop, I'd have my fiddle with me.

N: Did you every make your living fiddling ?

CRK 23A, Page 12

R: Well, some ofmi I did and some of it I didn't. I got me a job in that
If It
Grand Old Opry and somebody wrote them a letter up there and told them

I was a runabout J bad fellow runabout and they turned me down up there.

P: They did?

R: Yeah.

P: Did you ever find out who wrote that letter?

R: Neverlave, never did.

P: I guess you were pretty made at the time. Cift4 t

R: Well, I ... it wouldn't have done for me to have found it out right then. .43AS

P: After the dances, getting back to that, other than the cake, did people

have anything else to eat or drink there at dances?

R: Oh yeah, they'd have lemonade, ice cream, one thing or another.

P: Would there ever be whiskey at the dances?

R: Yeah, there'd be whiskey there.

P: Did it ever cause any trouble?

R: No, I don't think so. No, no trouble.

P: I've heard sometimes those frolics used to get pretty wild.

R: Well, some of them. Some of them would get kind of hard, but they would

soon get that all over it, they'd stop all of that, you see right quick.

P: Do you remember the aw ever coming out to one of those dances?

R: Yeah, Lord. The law would stay out there. That's the reason them fellows

would ay quiet, you see.

P: Where would the law come from in the Indian community out there?

Where was the law from?

R: Oh, it would come from Atmore. It wasn't but over about 7 miles out there.

That law would be right there. Everytime there's one .. All they had to do ..

There was a little old deputy who would stay out there.

CRK 23A, Page 13

P: Oh, what was his name?

R: His name was Walter Wise.

P: Where did he live?

R: He lived out there

AX& J of Per ido)
P: In Perr where?

R: In right up the road.

P: Did he live toward McCullough, or ...

R: Yeah, on the road towards McCullough, but he didn't live over half a mile

from that Indian settlement, so he would find out when the dances were

coming up.

P: How'd he find out?

R: They'd tell him. Anything starts np, you see, they'd run up there and

tell him. So, they soon get all that settled. Them dances, where them

dances were. Fellows quit messing around, you see. Old Walt Wise would

catch them and fine them. They'd have to pay a $15 or $20 fine for that,

you know.

P: For fighting or ...

R: For fighting and drinking.

P: Would he come into the luse for the dance or stay outside?

R: He'd come into the house and look around, you see. Let you know he was there.

P: Did he ever bring anybody with him?

R: No, he'd come by himself.

P: Was he an Indian fellow himself?

R: No, he was a white man.

P: Did helave a car back in those days or what?

R: No, I don't think he didle walked.

Page 14

R: In them days, +hey didn't know what a car was. C t

N: Getting back to, you say you walked to town, were k there a lot of people

besides yourself who walked to town? 0

R: Yea:, they'd go down there andwalk in them bunches. Everybody going to town /

N: When people would go to town and say they bought a bunch of stuff, how

would they get it back if they were walking?

R: They might put it in wagons and haul it back. We had wagons, you know.

Like if I had a wagon and you didn't have none, or they didn't have none,

they'd buy the stuff and put 0 it in their wagons.

N: Somebody else's wagon. Do you remember ever seeing people carrying stuff

back walking?

R: Yeah, I've done it myself. I tot(the-mwi4e load from down there

N: How did you tote things.. big heavy things back in those days?

R: Just put it in a sack and throw it across your shoulders and go on

with it.

N: You didn't have any pack straps or anything like that?

R: Just put it in a sack.

N: Do you remember ever seeing women carrying much stuff on their head?

R: Oh, no. I sure don't.A Women put it on top of their head and tote it.

N: Did you ever see any colored women back in those days carrying things

on their head?

R: Yeah, I seen them close to Atmore you know, there used to be a little

place up in town Ithey called akSx colored quarters and you'd see

them toting it on their heads, you see. -&__ tote it on their heaas.

back home.
N: Did they actually call it the colored quarters or did they call it some-

thing else ?
I. INigger Quarters
R" SSXSS Nigger Quarters. (z iJl (4'-'P )

\ -

CRK 23A, Page 15

P: They called it the nigger quarters?

R: Nigger quarters. C (A c /I&A51fA)

P: This is Ola now, talking about how the Indians the colored people had

different places in town. Just start again where you were. before.

0: Well, what's the name of that street, daddy. Not main street. The

Indians had their part of the town that they went and the niggers had
Le^*H-r t'of
their part and the niggers just -ddaxS come over there.

P: Do you remember what the Indian part was?

0: I am trying to think of it.

P: Was that Rigsby street?

0: Rigsby Street. The first street after you come from Forge, there's a

restaurant there...

P. Is it the one that runs along the railroad tracks?

0: National Cafe, I think they called it was there, and I believe it was

Main Street. I am not sure. I can't LS&i.t.

P: HOw many blocks was it?

0: It was aout three blocks. That's where they done their eating and their

drinking, you see, but the $/reSAin town, of course, and the ten cent

stores, of course, and they'd go down there for their shopping and they'd

go back up in there and do their eating and drinking, and the niggers

just didn't want to fool with them.

P: Did the white poeple ome up there?

0: Yeah, you saw some whites up there, because...

P: On a Saturday afternoon, and you were in a cafe, would there be more

whites than Indians? Is this the area I once heard someone say Peanut

Street a something like that?

0: The gin mill I bali-ae was on there and oh ... but it was a short street.

CRK 23A, Page 16

0: Sharpless Store was there, remember.

P: Farmer's Cafe. WEre there any places, either one of you, any places in

Atmore where indaisn Indians couldn't go in and eat and drink?

R: No, I don't tink so. They went everywhere, the Indians did.

P: They never got turned away from any places.
n r
R: You know, peopleAaround there, they wouldn't turn them out.

P; What about school nww?

R: Well, they id-their own school.

P: Did you go to school much?

R: N!, I never did go.

P: You didn't go at all?

R: I went three days in my life.

P: Was that enough for you?

R: That was enough for me right there. C(af s%)

P: Where did yu go to school?

R: Up there where we lived at W had a school there.

P: Who was your H teacher at that time?

R: I believe it was Roberta Stewart.

P: I've heard some people say years ago, and maybe you remember this,

that the county didn't pay teachers salary the parents had to get

together and get together the teachers' salary.

R: That's right. The county wouldn't pay it and the parents just had to

make it up and pay it from the congregation you see.

P: Do you remember how much they would have to get togehter or x how much

each person would have to pay?

R: N!, I don't think they had to pay too much. A goo d many of them would

CRK 23A, Page 17

R: you see, would get together and they would chip in to pay the teacher,

and it would make up a pretty good amount.

P: Do you remember about what time it was when the county started paying

the teacher .

R: No, I don't.

P: Had the county started to pay the teachers before you went o6f to the army?

R: I'll be dogged if I know. I -l'... n...-.. they did or not. I just

remember when I went off to the army, why I don't know much about it,

I just had that amy on my mind, and ...

P: When you came back from the army, was the county paying the teachers then?

R: Well, I believe they was, yeah. i

P: Do you happen to know how it was that they worked it around so *ier tti

county started to pay the teachers?

R: No, I sure don't. I don't remember it at all.

P: Changing the subject, here, do you remember when you were a small boy,
iwBc hearing any of the older back then using any Indian words or

wmgiIndian language.

R: NA, I are don't. That's something I also wanted to listen at and hear

them talk but, I don't think that bunch Bm up there could do that, talk

that Indian talk.

P: Une of the old timers up there told me there used to be a word for

thank you, .rey, the people would say. Do you remember that?

R: No, I aire don't. I think that's what they used to do up there in them


P: You don't ever remember any old people talking and didn't understand what

they were saying? Do you remember eating sofki?

R: Oh yeah, I remember that. That big corn sofki. I remember that.. My

TAPE 23A, Page 18

R: uncle's his wife 'a a they called it. Hdd a big block

about this big around, had a hole cut out the top of ia, smoothed

off and they put that lyed corn in that thing and beat it out with

a big C\Uk this big around. C(ea
it I,
P: Did you say they put lyed corn in there?

R: Yeah. They'd boil it, lyed it, and beat it with they'd beat it

first and get all that husk off of it and then put i and cook it.

P: Was there any particular time of the year that they made sofki?
R: No, I don't gnxx there was. I guess they just made it any time

they got hungry.

P: Was that something that would be a main dish at a meal?

R: Yeah. It would be pretty good to eat.

P: Did it have any seasonings in it? 3M8E

R: Oh, yeah. They'd put seasonings in it. They'd eat all that 4.)Cfl .

they wantedAand then take it out and heat it in hot grease, you see.

I could eat a lot of that myself.

P: So, after they boiled some sofki and they had some left over, they'd

take it out and boil it in grease?

R: Yeah, put it in blocks and keep it for the next meal, you see.

P: Do you remember the people back when you were young eat a lot of

wold game such as deer, squirrels and things?

R: Yeah, I think them Indians used to go hunting up there and kill

anything to get holt of a turkey, deer... Course, along in my days

up there, there wasn't too many in there too far off. Wouldn't

walk that far to hunt them.

P: Were there any gophers up there?

R: Yeah, a lot of them. That is a dish, too, them gophers.

TAPE 23A, Page 19

P: I just ate some at Noah McGhee's the other day. Do you remember

whether people ever caught gophers and sold them at any place.

R" Oh, yeah. They'd catch them, sell them, and ship hK them off way down

there around Miami, f *.) and sell them.

P: Was there one man who would buy from them locally and ship them off?

Who was that?

R: I'll be dogged if I know. I did know, but I forgot who he was. I

think whoever would catch them gophers), turn them over to this

man, he'd ship them off and get his and a lot of money would come

back, you see.

P: Was he living in Atmore, or where?

R: No, he was living out around .

P: Was he Indian?

R: Yeah, Indian.

P: He sort of tok everybody would bring them to him and he'd

ship them off? When did you sort of permanently move away from

the Pore area?

R: Oh, it's been a long time ago. I've been away from there ever

since I've been.. A I moved permanently from there a

pretty good while am--MONN .ago.

P: You moved to Mobile first about forty years ago, you say?

R: Something like that.

P: What kind of work did you do in Mobile?

R: Well, when I moved down there, I got me a job on the boat with

old man J. W. Gilbert. I used to work for him all the time. I

Hikhpya hxfxsmmm did*#lef about much I stayed with that

one job.

P: Before you left up there, Porch, what kind of work did you do to

make a living besides a little fiddling?

TAPE 23A, Page 20

R: Oh, well, we'd raiseA We had planet of goats, hogs, chickens.

Never did go lacking for nothing to eat, we just kept plenty of itai( P 4t?

you see.

P: You ever do any logging?

R: Oh, yeah.

P: Where did you do your logging?

R: Out at the settlement. tw4 / 10 AO; ^ loS-

P: Did you go work out and live at the camps.

R: Yeah, I stayed threat the settlement at the hop camps.

P: Where were some of the places you worked in logging?

R: Everywheres. Up a McCullough, way over in Baldwin County)pway

back up in, I forgot the name of that place, it's been so long.

P: Did you ever work in the fields for other people digging potatoes

or anything like that?

R: Potatoes, picking cotton, pulling corn, everything.

P: Where were the areas that you worked doing that?

R: All around home up there, you see. A a

P: Did you ever go off to North Carolina or Wisconsin dodi that?

R: No, I never did.

P: Were there any people during your time doing that from the Indian


R: No, I don't think there was. They never did go off anywhere, but

there was a lot of them, 15 or 20, that would get in a man's field

and pull corn and pick up potatoes.

P: What were- they paying in those days?

R: About fifty cents a day.

P: Would you get your dinner, too?

R: Oh, yeah. Fifty cents and dinner.

Page 20, 23A

P: Tell me about those pie suppers you used to have.

R: Oh, yeah. We had all of that, you know, them pie suppers.

P: Tell me what they are, I don't know what a pie supper is.

R: Well, that's just somebody giving abig supper and have all

sorts of pie they cooked, you see. Why, they'd even sell them,

you see.
P: Those were for aki /then?

0: The girls would make the pies in boxes, and the boys would bid

on the pies.

R: It's like you'd bid on horse or cows and the boys would bid on

them boxes. One fellow says) I bid $2 on that box, and the

other one would say, 3J=:l. $3. The boxes would go on up and

would bring about four or five dollars, you see.

P: Did the girl who made the pie get the money?

R: No, the one who was giving the pie supper.

P: I see. Well, the boy who finally won the pie on bidding, did

he get to eat with the girl or what?

R: Yeah, they'd eat together.

I see, until the gott the

P: I see, until after they got the pie, then they'd know? Any little

love things get started that way?

R: I imagine so. You see, the girl's name would be on a ticket on that

cake and when they'd cut the cake up and issue it around, they'd find

the number you know and ticket under there with the girl's name, you see.

P: What were some of the pies they used to make back in those days that

were popular?

R: Oh, they'd make all kinds. It's been so long, Ican't hardly tell you.

TAPE 23A, Page 21

R: Blackberry, pumpkin, they call them pumpkin pie.

P: Any sweet potato pie?

R: Yeah, they'd call them pirate custards. They'd have all such as that.

P: Any pecan pies back in those days?

R: Yeah, they'd have all kinds peach pie, apple pie, everything.

It was good to eat.

0: I said the first silver dollar I ever saw, they had a Charleston

contest. All the girls was in it, (harlesting by themself.

P: Where was this, b the say?

0: It was in in a little church back over in the woods

there, before they built the big church. Mildred McGhee, it was

runoff between me and her well, she could Charleston with

both feet and I could Charleston with one. Well, she got the silver

dollar and I didn't get but fifty cents. They made our costumes

out of crepe paper I remember mine was red and white.

P: Back in those days before radio and tv, how did the young girls
learn about the latest dance mxxK that was going across the country?

0: I don't know. I learned from my A daddy following him and my

mother around to these fiddling things.

P: So, that's how you learned. Do you think may be your dad brought

a lot of knowledge like that back to the community?
e e am 4A-i
0: I think he did. He couldn't stay at home they was coming after

him for fiddling. I A f rL

P: Let me ask him. Did you ever teach the people at any of the

new dances?

R: No, I never did. You see, the people up there would have them

dances and would learn them by themselves, you see.

23A, Page 22

P: You didn't teach them the charleston?

R: No, I didn't. They like to teach me to do that.

0: In those days, all he'd ever do was the buck dance.

P: Was what?

OY The buck dance.

P: What's that?

R: Oh, that's just a dance where the fellow would go out there and

dance by himself.

P: What does it look kt like?

R: I can't do that thing.
P: After I get through, maybe he'll get his shoes and show my some of

that buck dancing.

P: Back in theearly days that you can remember, what kind of...11el

me and describe the clothes the people would wear when they'd dress

up for a dance.

R: Well, they'd just weart the closes like we're wearing now, just

about. They'd have white shirts and ties and suits.

P: What about ...

R: They'd wear --- A lot of them wear You couldn't hardly

get a hold of a suit in them days.

P: What about the women?

R: .They'd go just like they're going now, some of them.

P: Do you remember any of the old women putting a lot of ribbons on

their clothes?

R: I sure don't. Them women, in them days wore them long dress around

their ankles.

P: They didn't get in their way when they danced?

Tape 23A, Page 23

R: No, they sure didn't. C(bU J)

P; Were there any speaking of clothes, shoes, and things were there

any people who came out to the community, selling clothes and things?

R: Oh, yeah. Selling everything, clothes and shoes.

P: Do you remember the names of any of those people?

R: No, I sure don't.

P: NEKIX How would they come? What would they bring it all in?
if l
R: A lot of them, they call them foot peddlers, you see. They'd have

a pack on their back and ahve all that stuff in that pack and he'd

be walking,toting it.

P: Would he go all over the country, or .

R: All over the settlement.

P: How were his prices as compared to the prices in the store at Atmore?
R: Well, they'd be about the same. He'd walk and tote it and sell it.

You'd have to go downtown and buy it out of them stores. This foot

peddler would walk around through the country through the settlement

and sell it.

P: Where did people go to get things like hatx iron pots they used

to cook in?

R: I guess they'd go to the hardware store.

P: But, would the foot peddler ever have anything like that?

R: No, all they ever had was clothes.

P: Going back to what your daughter was saying, you worked on the

Frisco Railroad for a while. What did you do on the railroad?

R: Oh, I was on there as a laborer, you see. We didn't do nothing_..-_
.Aftr 4-ies Sand straightening _it .upj
but A with them t'ies, leveling the track up l4nd leveled the

tires. Set that dirt and so in between the tires, you see. pack it

up under them tires to hold it up. That's about all I done.

TAPE 23A, Page 24

R: There was about 15 or 20 of us working together.

P: Were you working out of what town at that time?
R: We was working from Peruh on towards Atmore.

P: I see. Did you help put that railroad in?

R: I helped put them tires and things onto that track. We wouldn't work
Po cA re- A
no further than aweih, though. Over about Freemanville, you know

where Freemanville is? We'd work a little place up from that line

there and then we'd turn back, and go back the other way.

Worked Freemanville back over towards aeke *

P: You also did some turpentine work?

R: Oh, yeah,

P: What kind of work did you do in turpentine?

R: You know how them turpentine boxes are made, cups ...

P: The ones that hang on a tree?

R: Yeah. Well, you see, they got a streak cut on them just like that
4o +0
you see. Well, you chip both sides of that for that tar to run out

just like sugar cane or something. So I used to work in Miss;SSi;"

\gl' old man called Lloyd Bracket. We'd work that turpentine and

sugar cane, he just had everything, he did. When we wasn't in one

place, we was in another working.

P: Did you ever work here in Pensacola?

R: Oh, yeah.

P: What kind of work did you do here in Pensacola and when did you come


R: Oh., it's been a pretty good while since I've been here.
P: You've been here since Ai, you say? What kind of jobs have you

had here in Pensacola?

R: Well, first one thing than another. Just picking around, you see.

Tape 23A, Page 25

R; Tug boat, my job was. r

P: St. John's Cemetery? What did you do over there?

R: We just kept it cleaned up and everything in order, you see.

P: How did you happen to get that job?

R: Well, I just went over there and applied for it, and I knowed the

man who run the thing, the bosses, and they gave me a job, you see.

P: How did you get to know the men who ran it?

R: Well, I just knowed them by a fellow who had worked over there, you see.

P: That had worked at the cemetery before?

R: Yeah.

P: Any other kind of jobs that you've had through your life.

R: Well, I've had a lot of them, but I EmrK couldn't tell you now

what all them is, you see.

0: He worked over at the Mobile Shipyard.
RA ge" 1 ,2-- wvo-kc-X TfuS r- -
P: What did you do over at the Mobile Shipyard?

R: We worked that steel, cutting that steel, big sheets of steel for

tugboats. They'd built them boats they'd ship them off and built them.

I'd cut it up myself.

P: You were saying, I didn't get it on tape, they had big shears?

R: Yeah, big old shears, they called them.

P: And there how big?

R: Oh, there as wide as that door there.

P: How long did you work before they n let you operate the shears?

R: They let me work when they found out I could do it, you see.

P: And how much did they pay?

R: They didn't pay much. About three or four dollars a day ,vj 1di/ A0y

Tape 23A, Page 26

P: Getting back to those dances, you said you didn't do much fiddling

for your own people. Who were some of the people who used to do

a lot of fiddling around the Indian community there?

R: XXI XXMXRKM. Everybody. Old man Jim Green, Old Alvin Smith, you

know him? Ed Green, Matt Lewis, all them fellows, you know, when
-fro Ic
somebody would give a party over there, all of them would come to

them, you know. Everybody would fiddle.

P: Were those fiddlers Indian?
0 1-fW A&P* 1Ae /C ?..., ,Fr c 41A/A v
R: No, they wasn't. My daddy, Alec. He didn't fiddle too muchl. Fred 4(/ofI/y

Pe Wr.r, Alec was your uncle, you said. Who was Alec's wife?

R: Old Lady Mary. I don't now. She was a 1 his wife was f-AICc

P: Do you remember...What was Alec's mother and daddy's name?

R: Lord only knows. I couldn't tell you. Don't know much about that.

P: Now I heard that the Roland family originally came up from up

around Red Hill. Tell me something about that.

R: I don't know much about it. That's what they call it. Used to be

an old place up there used to call it Jumping Gulley.

P: I hadn't heard that, tell me something about that.

R: That's up around that Red Hill. That Red Hill and that Jumping Gulley

is all one thing. That's the old Roland's stomping ground.

P: You weren't born up there, were you?

R: Uh, uh.

P: Did you ever go up there? Were there any Rolands still living up there?

R: Yeah, long years ago, I was a little fellow used to go on up through

there. We stayed up there a while.

P: Who were some of the Rolandsiat who lived up there.

R: Old man John Roland Alec's brother. Sam they all lived up there in

that part of the country. I guess that's about all I can remember

and tell you about such as that.

TApE 23A, Page 27

P: Did they make their living the same way you all did down here?

R: Well, they had to make it that way, there wasn't no other way for

t them to do it, you see.

P: Back in those days, years ago, when it was such a long way to town,

what happened when somebody got sick?

R: Lord on ly knows. I don't know. They just put it in them wagons

and haul them to town.

P: There was a doctor in Atmore?

R: Yeah. Sure was. Dr. Frank Peavy. I believe he was the one who

treated them all.

P: Did he deliver many babies?

R: I think he delivered some out there for one or two of them.

P: Who delivered monmost of the babies?
R: Granny women.

P: Who were most of the granny women you remember from those days.
a roue r l
R: Granny ip GoodsonAy grandma.There's several of them out there.

P: Was Mindy Goodson an Indian?

R: No, she wasn't no Indian. She was a white woman.

P: Was there any colored nmmHxx granny women who worked out there?

R: NO, not in them days.

P: What about, do you remember whether people used to use a lot of

herb medicines and things?

R: No, I sure don't, but I hear them talk about That old Indian herb

medicine? My uncle used to get these herb pills at the drugstore
gB tablets and they'd call that Indiaiedicine. They'd mash it up

to a dust and put it in sattms jars of water and sell it.

P: This is your uncle who?

R: Frazier McGhee.

TAPE 23A, Page 28

R: He dead and gone, all of them gone just about. All them OU-" f h o
L4 i
R: Was FrazierJAMMOM Norman McGhee's daddy?

R: Norman McGhee's uncle.
P: Who were ExaEXie McGhee's Axddx mother and daddy?

R: 14CIOMcGhee and Charlie McGhee/

P: I see. Was he the medicine man? I heard tell he was the medicine


R: Yeah, he was the medicine man.

P: How did he get to be that?

R: Lord knows. You know Frazier's uncle to be a medicine man, too.

N & R tablets that's all they knew how to sell, you see. They

couldn't get nothing else to sell itl

P; Did they ever got out t:k to the woods and get any herbs?

R: NO, they'd go to the drugstore and get them N & R tablets, mash them

up and take them, JI ;. '7Q Woo ? C < o

P: They vK it to colored people?
(ryon44r Ione- (HSeS)
SHerbs something that grows wild in the woods _
0.1 -r:-- I I A To, btvt-A U^4re 4--, 40 fr eio
P: Weeds?

0: ARemember)you took that nim onion and squeeze the juice out of it?

R: Oh, yeah. You'd take an onion and get it hot and mash the juice out

of it and take that for pneusmonia and colds.

R: Tell me what a tar plaster is.

R: That's when you get a wad of hot splinters, hot wood, you know, and

dig a ho lej the ground, put you a little/piece of +-'i in there)
you know, that can where the tar will drip out in it,put the wood

and tar around that tin, get it hot, get them splinters hot in there,

and the tar wil1dripfrout of them splinters. Drip through that hole 7A 1

4i and run out AiB LV 7% Run out of that can, you know, looks

TAPE 23A, Page 29

like syrup running down. Pure stuff, that's what they do when people

had pains in the side, they'd get a piece of paper, get some of the

tar and slap it down the side, you know.

P: And the tar would stick it to your skin?

R: Stick it to your skin. When you'd want to get it off, you'd have to

get some kind of grease on there to get that tar off of there.

0: About like you'll used to do for the croup.

R: For the croup or something, hold it over the fire and let that

steam it smoke it, and that grease would drip out in a cup or

spoon or something, you know. Take that, you see, and take it for

that croup and

P: Any other remedies like that you can think of?

R: No, that's about all I can think about it's been so long.

P: Tell me, do you remember a custom when a new baby was born

after a few days carrying around the house, they were supposed

to take after whoever was carrying it?

R: NO,but I heard it taking it around the house.

P: Yeah, that's what I am talking about.

R: I heard taking the younguns around the house

P: When you seen them do that, was it one person that carried the

baby .

R: Yeah, just one.

P: Hid the others walk around with him?

R: No, just hte one thatAs got the baby-de-i-t himself.

P: Who would be the one who carried the baby?

R: Well, first one there who wanted to carry it. Like if I was there

and I wanted to carry it, I'd carry it, and if she was there,

she'd carry it, you see.

P; Would a baby ever be carried by more than one person?

TAPE 23A, Page 30

R: No, just .

P: Once it was done once, that's all?

R: That's all.

P: What if you wre in a house, and you sid yo wanted to carry that

baby around, and it had alEeady been carried around, what would

the mother say to you?

R: She'd say to get it and go around with it.

P: What if the baby had Cxndy already been carried around?

R: She'd say she'd already been toted around, done been carried


P: How did you learn how to play the fiddle?

R: I just picked it up in m-m my own way. I just picked it up and

learned how to play it.

P: About how old were you?

R: Oh, about 20, something like that when I learnt.

P: Where did you get your first fiddle?

R: Well, I bought my first one at Atmore and I made my a homemade

banjo out of a syrup can.

P: Yeah, you told me about that a minute ago.

R: It was a s good as a storebought banjo.

P: How much did your storebought fiddle cost?

R: Aubt eight or ten dollars.
and wait for it, tr did they have them in the
P: Did you have to go and order it, ov-idt"C9 nzoxK ...dyxlk2
stores already?
R: They'd have them in the stores. Just go to them hardware and they'd

have them.
P: I heard someone talk at those old dance, Aimy there'd be a straw man.

They'd beat on the fiddle with a straw.

R: With two sticks, you see. The fiddle would be playing with two stick.

TAPE 23A, Page 31

and they'd be playing with two sticks.

P: Would there be two people playingat the same time?

R: No, there'd be the banjo man and the fiddle player.

P: That was the straw man?

P: Did people like that?

R: Oh, yeah.

P: Besides the fiddle and the bango, what other instruments did they


R: Thatts about all. That's about what they had in them days. They

had the fiddle and the bm= banjoh J had a guitar.

P: I'm going to ask you one more little group of questions here, change

the subject completely.

R; What do you think about this land ki kwww money situation that

they had over the years?

R: oh, Lord. I couldn't tell you hout that#. ae Only thing I can

hear about, they're going to get that 4iM money. That's the only

thing I heqr about. They ain't ever come here and they ain't paid

any of it off, so I don't know much about it.

P: Where were you living when that came up in the first place?

R: I was living up here in Alabama.

P: You wre back from Mobile then?
I' 11
R; Oh, yes. So I don't know much about that Indian money. All I goes

by is what people tell me, it're gonna get itke're gonna get it.

at such and such a time, but it never come here, you see. I don't

know if we're gonna get it, or what.

P; I wanted to ask you one thing I wanted to ask you before. In

general, back in the old days and through the years, how the Indian

folks bet along with the white?

TAPE 23A, Page 32

R; They got along alright. Indians stayed in their place and the whites

stayed in theirs, you seef.

P: What about the colored folk?

R: Oh, they wasn'txp no colored out in them places out in those days,

you see. p
P: There are quite a few out there now, but there wane a -w years


R: No, no.

P: Do you happen to know how they started coming in?

R: No, I sure don't.& I reckon they are just all over the world now,

hunting a place to live and so, they just went out. I can't tell

you much about them.

P: Is there anything else I haven't asked you that you'd like to tell

me about?

R: No, I don't believe there is, not right now. I can't think of nothing.

P: Why don't you tell me about ChOCtaw Park in Mobile and how Ernest

Tubb came and all that.

R: Well, I think Ernest Tubb* came down there one time when I was running

that park and I tkaxnkt think they was having square dances six nights

a week. Wed have7&smalflgan Ibout 1500, I think.

P: This was when now?

R: This was I can't hardly tell you, it's been so long since I've

fooled with it.

P: Your daughter said this was in WPA?
on the
R: Yeah, when I was working-k-d&WPA. The WPA was sponsoring a dance

you see, and I just go down there and run it and take care of it.
P: Besides Eev.t Tubb, did a lot of people from Grand Old Opry come in


TAPE 23A, Page 33

R: If they did, I didn't know nothing about them. Just Ernest Tubbs.

P: How did you get that offer to work for Grand Old Opry?

R: Well, I wrote up there one time and asked'them could I get on and

they wrote back I was too badyou're running about after women.

Somebody had written in there and cut me off, you see.

P: But you had written to them and asked after working for them.

R: They'd give me the job and somebody cut me off. .I don't know

who done it.

P: How did you find out yommbri somebody had written that letter about you?

R; Well, they wrote me back and said somebody had turned me in as being

a bad fellow.

P: Was it true?
pD: (I e, oq k S )
R; I reckon so. C(at4

P: Here in later years, you've calmed down some?

R: Yeah. I wished many a time I could have got that job up there.

I reckon if I had got that job up there, I'd V now. I didn't get

it so,

P; When was the last time you played the fiddle for a dance?

R: It's been a long time. I just figured mytime and start

all over again.

P: I bet there would be a lot of people happy to hear you play again.

Folks up in Alabama would like to i-mm hear you.

R; That's true, that's right. If they knowed I had a fiddle, they'd be

out before the week was out. (C(4CF )

P; Did you go up there last year when they had that big thing on

Thanksgiving day?

R: Yeah, I think I did.

P; What did you think of that?

TAPE 23A, Page 34

R: I thikk it was mighty fine.

P: Maybe they'd get you to play the fiddle up there for dase .

R: When I had a fiddle, they wouldn't rest until I got there.

0: Theyistart on Saturday and didn't stop until Sunday.

P: As a young girl, did you go around with your daddy to these places?

0: Me and my mother both.

P: Did you'll take part, or did you just sit back and watch?

0: AMomma'just sit back and watch, cause she didn't like it.

B: Who was your mother, by the way?

0: She was Maggie Carroll.

P: VHer last name was Carroll?

P: You mentioned you thought you had some Spanish an estry?- _

0: Yeah, oA my taeL'sB -td-) fhe had SpanisH.A Her father was -fA(j-e/oU


P: Well, maybe you'll get that fiddling start again. Tell me how

come your nickname was YNub" i1

R: I had a fight one time. Me and Calvin and he$ bit ame off.

P: And they started calling you Nub?

What did you have a fight about?

R: Oh, it was just a fight to see who could whip who.

P: Where did you have this fight?

R Atis house I bieve Outside the gate. xL, Lt f cAddC -1I

P: Were you all young fellows then? About how old were you?

R: Oh, I think I was about, I don't know, he was pretty old, he was

married and I was married too, I believe. No, I don't think I

was. He was married, I was single. We just got to drinking

and got together and got to fighting.

P: And he bit your thumb? C k (45

TAPE 2223A, Page 35

R: He bit me on the nose.

P: That was before 46 he became the chief, huh? C
6(,erier lA I 1jht-4r)
R: He bit me on the nose, there, he had his arm around neck, tried to

pull me down to get a good bite, I reckon, but I put my hand under

that JOI and he had to turn I7n *

P: Who was the first one who cAlled you AM1 after that?

R: Oh, I believe old Chipley was the one. C(UUt J

P: He called you Nub and now his son JS ubVnu( "T *

R: He called me that, Old Chipley did.

P: Tell me about when you used to ride ReA, your ?aC DOr.Jt

R: I used to run races, first one thing then another. I just put on

my long shirt and get my horse saddled Maybe 7 or 8 of us

running races and riding.

P: You didn't have any pants on?

R: No, didn't have nothing on but that long shirt.

P: About how old were you then?

R: I was aboutit. I was pretty young, about 15 or something like that.

P: Where did you race? i -

R: Up and down that road l / Up and down. Towards Atmore, 4nywheres.

P: How many horses were around then. Did most families have one?

R: Yeah. I think they did. Most every family around there had

horses and mules, tool.

P: Back when you was a youngster, what were the old time funerals like?

R: Just like they are right now.

P: No different from now?

P: Would they sit up all night when there was A funeral?

R: Some of them would, some of them would go to bed.

P: What would they do when they was sitting up.

R; Wouldn't do nothing but sit up with the dead, you know.

TAPE 23A, Page 36

R: All I can think of, be quiet in the house and sit down and.S. TL

until daylight.

P: Did they do much eating?

R: All I can think of, when they was through sitting up there, one

fellow would go to sleep and another would take his place.

P: You said, take his place, was there any set number that had to

be there?

R: No, he'd just relive this :08t1 fellow while he'd take a na

and the other one would sit up there.

P: What was the reason for sitting up like that?

R: They just got used to that .
P: Do you rememberhfunerals*P people putting their hands on the

person that died?

R: They'd do that when the person was laid out in the church, you

know. VEverybody would go by and look at him and put their hand

on the forehead, you know.

P: What's the reason for laying their hand on their forehead?

R: God an knows.

P: You never heard anybody tell you?

R: Never did.

P: Was that something everybody would do?

R: Something everybody would do.

P: What about the little children? Would they do it?

R: Yeah, some of them. Some of them would do it, and some of them wouldn't

do it.

O: I heard it was to keep from dreaming about them or the spirit coming

back. Now when my mother died, hhe'ds been dead for years, the funeral

home closes at ten o'clock, but they left it pman open and all the

nnn people from Atmore stayed there with her.

TAPE 23A, Page 37

P: When people were sitting up with the body, did they ever sing hymns?

R: Oh, yeah. They'd sing two or three, then slack up, then later on

they'd sing some more.

P: Was there anybody who would lead the singing?

R: Oh, yeah.

P: Who would that be?

R: Well, I believe Ed McGhee's old lady used to do it, lead all the

songs, Maggie they'd call her.

P: Ed Mc hee's old 40% lady? How did she happen to lead the songs?

R: I just think she could understand it better than the rest of

them, lead them, and everybody would follow her.

P: Would there be any musical instruments there?

R: Nothing but an organ. 110 played the organ, you know.

P: I was asking you about other instruments at the dances, did

anybody play the guitar back then?

R: I don't know who'd play them. All I know is about the five-string

banjo. Now Cate McGhee, you remember him?
P: Did Jack 1\ every play any?

R: No, me and Jack used to run about and play a little, but 4i "t

play too much. He played the guitar. Jack played thea.t guitar

ada^mi-and I'd play the fiddle. 1 A >

P: When you were growingup, what church was over in A ?

R: I believe Free Will Holiness used to be there. Preacher Jonah.

P: Where did he come from?

R: Baldwin County, I think. &SxycEd He used to preach there, you know.

He was an old fellow.

P: Was there ever a preacher before him?

R: Yeah, I think there was, but I can'tuamina think of him. One fellow

from Monroe County used to come down there and preach.

Tape 23A, Page 38

R: I done forgot his name. Old man preacher Jonah, he was thee regular

preacher he preached there all the time.

P: Did he come I every Sunday?

R: Every Sunday.

P: Did he have other churches that he'd go to?

R: Yeah, he'd go to the first one, then another He'd start, believe,

that Roberta Stewart she married a StewartI She'd teach school,

and he's preachyxps xsg every Sunday.

P: Roberta Stewart was his daughter? She married a Stewart? Where was
he from, that Stewart?
R: I couldn't tell you.

P: Was he Indian?

R: No, she wasn't' neither, you see.

P: When you were a little child growing up, did you know you were


R: Yeah, I guess I did. I was uama raised out there with them


P: Did you think of yourself as being different than white people?

R: Oh, yeah.

P: In what way?

R: I could tell there was aSM-11 difference in the skin)you see.

P: Was that all?

R: That's about all.

P: I 4 heard that years ago, there was some older Aeads who awwe

full-blooded Indians. Who were some of them?

R: Old man John, John Roland, Alec Roland. You couldn't call them nothing

else but full-blooded.

P: Did they have to shave much?

R. No, Old man Alec did n't have nothing to shave. SE yl-r,. aw. /L C

TAPE 23A, Page 39

P: They were brothers to Larrell?

P: Now was Daxxi Darrell Roland, Tracys' father, was he a brother to


R: Yeah.

P: Now, who was their daddy?

R: I belive my momma told me a long time ago, her momma was named Francis

and a dadoy was named e That's way back.

P: And Sam and Alec were brothers to your momma?

j. I've been trying to figure that out. There were all in the

same family?

R: All in the same famixcx family.

R: Dig a hole in the mouth of his hole, about this big around. Put

straw and stuff over it you see. Held crawl out of that hole,

and when he didn't pay no attention to that straw being there,

you see. He'd crawl over it and when he'd crawl over it, why,

he'd just fall in and right on down in there he'd go, he couldn't

get out, so you'd have a 0 har in your arms.

P: What-was the other one you were telling me about with the stick

in the ground?

R: Put you a stick in the ground, get you another one, and saw it across

there and make a noise you see, and that gopher Yad crawl out

of that hole to see what was going on, you see. He'd get out of

that hole, he'd crawl into that gopher pit and that'd be the end

of him, you see.

P: So you'd "'him and saw him out at the same time? Could you tell

me how people used to store their potatoes? I forgot to ask you

about that. You remember potato pits?

R: Yeah, we called them banks, potato banks. Just put them all up

together and cover them with dirt and pine bark.

TAPE 23A, Page 40

P: Pine bark?

R: Yeah, you put that dirt over them potatoes, and then lay that bark

over them and then put that dirt and stuff on that bark, you see and

them potatoes would keep fromone season t another, you see.

P: What about corn cribs? How did they make corn cribs?

R: Bome of them would build them out of poles, you know, pine poles,

put corn in them, plant corn, and that corn in that crib that

they'd put in there, they'd just put the corn. Some of them

would put their potatoes in there and keep them from one year

to another. Some of them would rot but it'd bold dry rot, you


P: So it wouldn't spoil the others?

R: No, they'd wouldn't spoil the others.

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