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UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT




Interviewee: Louise Pettus
Interviewer: Emma Echols
October 20, 1992
CAT 178




Louise Pettus grew up in Lancaster County and taught at Winthrop
College. In this interview she discusses her family history and
information she has gathered about the Catawba Indians. She has
done much research on the land leases written between the
Catawabas and the settlers during the 1800s. She discusses the
various books that have been written on the Catawbas,
specifically regarding the Catawba language, and she discusses
the settlement the Catawbas have applied for with the help of
Congressman John M. Spratt.









Interviewee: Miss Louise Pettus

Interviewer: Emma Echols

Date of Interview: October 20, 1992

CAT178a



E: This Emma Reid Echols, from Charlotte, North Carolina, 5150

Sharon Road. I am working on the oral history of the

Catawba Indians with the University of Florida [and] Dr.

Samuel Proctor. I am visiting in the home of Louise Pettus.

P: Louise Pettus, 708 Harrell Street, Rock Hill, South

Carolina.

E: Now tell me about your early life, where you lived [and]

where you went to school as a little girl.

P: Well I lived in Lancaster County, in the area that is

called Indian Land, and went to Bel Aire Elementary

School and then to Indian Land High School. After I

graduated from Indian Land High School, I came to

Winthrop College, and I think that is the first time I

ever really saw Catawba Indians. As I recall, they

came to sell pottery, and before the major vacations

when we could go home -- Thanksgiving, Christmas or the

end of the year -- there would always be one or two who

were there on campus. When the weather was bad they

were inside the entry way to the dining room, not

inside the dining hall itself, but there was a covered

way and they were outside with the blanket spread out









and the pieces of pottery that they were selling --

twenty-five cents, fifty cents. I remember buying

several for fifty cents, and one [that] I do not know

what I paid for it but it was a large one, a bowl with

three legs to it, and flat, and I gave it to my

grandmother for Christmas. She put on the back of

every gift (that she still had at that particular time

and still recalled the name of the grandchild that had

given it to her) a piece of tape and put the name, and

said she wanted them to have it back, whatever it was.

So I got back the bowl. She had used it to hold

walnuts. There was a walnut tree in their backyard and

they put walnuts in there with something to crack the

walnuts, and the usual nutcracker and a little pick.

It had sat on her back porch for many years, so I got

that one back, and another bowl that I had given her,

one that was almost solid black. It was a typical,

more vase-like bowl. So I did not have direct contact

with the Catawba Indians, I simply was aware of their

presence and their role. I later went West. I taught

in Arizona for nine years. I taught on two Indian

reservations. I got more interested in the Indian

culture, and I think part of that was getting to know

Pima and Papagos youngsters that I taught in class.

They were not as much Americanized (as they used to

say) as say the Catawba Indians. They were truly more









primitive, still speaking their language, still having

basically their same cultural characteristics that were

distinctly different from the Pima to Papagos. But I

was fascinated with some of their behavior and, [in]

trying to figure it out, [I] talked with teachers and

interviewed some of them about their experience with

some of these Pima and Papago children. I think that

caused me to have, besides being a social studies

teacher, sort of particular interest in the Catawbas

when I returned to this area, and returned to the

teaching faculty at Winthrop where I taught education,

trained student teachers, worked with student teachers

in the field, [and] also taught some history, all along

getting to know people in both departments. And I

think this often happens, if it touches us very

directly. An aunt of mine had wanted me to help her

get the family history together and so I had done all

kinds of research as I had worked at the South

Caroliniana Library [at the University of South

Carolina in Columbia, South Carolina], as a graduate

student. I found things that indicated that my

ancestors were among the first white settlers of the

Catawba Indian land. I found that my ancestor William

Pettus was one of the first of the agents for the state

to record the leases and renting arrangements and so

forth, and in 1808 the legislature decreed that all of









the lands and the Catawba Indian lands had to be

surveyed because they were getting so much contention

and differences over this. Because it was rented land,

there was no deed to it from the state whatsoever.

These people did not hold title and there was

contention, not only between some whites and Indians,

disputes over where boundary lines were, but between

white men as to where their leases started and where

they stopped. And frequently I have discovered that

the Indians were rather indifferent to those exact

lines on a piece of paper. So they were enriching

[sic] a few lawyers, and causing rather a great deal of

hard feeling. Well, they required that it be surveyed.

Now it was three years before they actually did the

survey, but in 1808, [they did]. [In] the same year

that it was decided to appoint somebody to keep a rent

book and better records than ever before, my ancestor

William Pettus was not only one of the superintendents,

but was elected to represent the white people who lived

inside the Catawba Indian land in the state

legislature. He went to Columbia [South Carolina] and

they refused to seat him [in the legislature]. Now,

Mrs. Brown mentions this in her book and so that is

where I discovered that fact. At that point I did not

even know that William Pettus was my direct ancestor,

but I did [find that out] when I started hunting for









the information and the history around it. They

refused to seat him. And the only thing that I have

ever found now in some twenty years of looking for it,

and also going to the state archives about this, is

that there was such a hue and cry up here in the

Catawba Indian land that they threatened in some

fashion. I am not sure how. But, anyway, they re-

elected him in the year 1810, and he was seated the

second time around and stayed in the legislature until

his death in 1818. Now, that part of it got me

interested in the process of leasing land; I found [it]

fascinating. James Merrell in his book on the Catawba

Indians [James Hart Merrell, The Catawbas, 1989], and

in his dissertation makes a statement that the Catawbas

were the only people who leased lands to an individual.

There are other tribes who leased their land, but they

always leased it en masse (or to a group), not to an

individual, by an individual. And if you look in the

old records, that second record book that was kept that

records the various leases from 1811 to 1829, you can

see that the rents were paid from a particular white

man, such as William Pettus, to a particular Indian.

It might be Prissy Red Head, or Jamie King or Sally New

River or General New River, or James Bulling or any

number of individually named Indians. Sometimes it was

a particular name of a mother and her children and it









would list who they were. And that kind of system,

which was really a personal thing, must have been a

trial because the individual Indians had to go to the

white man that they rented it to to get that little dib

of money, maybe even as low as a $1.50 even, or $2.50

rent per year for as much say as 100 acres. You find

some examples of them paying $10, but then you find

that they are renting about 500 to 600 acres for that

$10 rent. They had to individually collect it. Well

of course that got burdensome, and you will find many

examples in history where they will try to change that

sort of thing.

That was one thing that I discovered, and that got me

interested in the collective family history. Then I found

that William Pettus married a daughter, Mary Knox, of a man

named Samuel Knox, who lived in Mecklenburg county, North

Carolina. William's brother George married another Knox,

Jane the sister of Mary. Not to get into my family history

except to say that even more recently I have proof that I am

descended from both George and William Pettus, who married

sisters, which makes me about four times descended from the

Samuel Knox. Well, I found an original lease in a court

case. I was looking for something else. It was in a court

case called Sutton vs. Jackson in 1831, and I was reading it

on microfilm. In the course of it, it was about a land sale

of a man named Alexander Cannlish, who took his twenty-five









year lease that had been willed to his daughter by her

grandfather Samuel Knox, and he had sold it contrary to the

will of the grandfather. It was a very interesting case in

many different aspects, but a part of the evidence given was

a copy of the lease of Samuel Knox. It was court evidence,

it was sworn to by various superintendents of the Indian

tribes, there were a lot of testimonies regarding the

Indians in the process and how it was done, and it was so

fascinating because it was the first, and it was testified

in court by one Hugh White that he knew that it was the

first one recorded in a book that has since been lost for a

long time. See, Mrs. Brown and her book on the Catawba

Indians [Douglas Summers Brown, The Catawba Indians: the

people of the river, 1966] just simply notes that there was

an earlier one but does not know how it was lost or when.

We still do not know how it was lost but we know it was lost

a long time before 1831, according to the court case

evidence. Well, the first one, he said, was Samuel Knox and

the year was the fifteenth day of November 1785 and the

lease was made between John, Colonel Ayers, Major Brown,

Major John Thompson, Captain Squash, and Pinetree George,

all of the Catawba Indians, with the consent of General New

River, chief of the Catawba Indians, and Samuel Knox of the

county of Mecklenburg, North Carolina. It does not say how

many acres, but if we take the measurements of some later

land deeds, it shows that he had at least as much as the









legendary Thomas Canowus Bratt and maybe even more. It does

say at least that it was to run from one branch of Steel

Creek across to the other branch of Steel Creek in upper

Fort Mill area. It names some of the people. But I think

the fascinating thing is what he paid for it. Colonel

Ayers, for nine silver dollars and a black horse, delivered

to Tom Cross by the order of the said chiefs, in the year

1784, being for five years rent of the said land; and again

one black mare to said Indians for seven years rent; and in

the month of July 1785, a rifle gun and one silver dollar to

Colonel Ayers; and in 1785 in October for four years rent,

one bay mare; and he continues with this to bring it up to a

twenty-five years lease; and finally, he will pay 10 silver

dollars yearly after 1785. Now, he will die in 1800, and I

presume that is what he paid. Now, what is fascinating

about this lease is it is not like any later leases. In the

first place, they will eventually standardize it; they will

even standardize the language of it to finally have it

standardized by having it printed off by somebody and just

filling in the blanks. But this was hand written as were

all the early ones. All the ones before about 1815 were

hand written. And, it is for twenty-five years. After

1808, by law, all leases had to be ninety-nine years; three

life times is what they called it. So this is a difference

but I have found them as early as even a year or two out of

the 1780s yet. [I have] xerox copies of them. I collect









these things. [They are] early 1790s, and before 1800 they

were all hand written. They were all highly individual, but

none of them are so individual as this one which does not

have any standard length of time and sites a various number

of goods and money in an odd fashion. So I found that and I

was really fascinated by it and it was sworn as a true copy

of a lease. It had the signatures of New River, and Ayers,

and Brown, and Thompson and so forth, and they are just

marks. But New River made his name look like a capital N.

Colonel John Ayers made his look like a zero and so did

Major John Brown, you might say it was the same one. John

Thompson had a rather fancy [one] that looked like a

hieroglyphic mark, and Captain Squash just does a little

rolling w-look to make his mark. They took these leases,

evidently, quite seriously, but I do not think the Indians

really understood what they were leasing and they certainly

did not have any concept of this being forever in the sense

as I understand it. Almost universally among Indians when

they made a contract the contract was made between the

individuals who were present at the time and who shook hands

over it. The Indians tended not to think of this in terms

of "how can I say what my son, my grandson, and so forth

would want done?" They did not divide up the land because

they used it commutal fashion as a tribe. I think they must

have assumed that the white man was somewhat doing the same









thing until they eventually find out differently, and the

white man takes a great stake in what is put down on paper.

E: It is fascinating to hear you tell these things. Now where

is any of this written down that you are telling me?

P: Well, nothing other than in the documents. As I said I

have not gotten into books. I have written articles.

I have mentioned the first lease in an article, and I

wrote an article about Sally New River and her very

unusual lease that I like to tell you about in a little

bit. It was published in the newspaper and not just

one newspaper because it was distributed by Winthrop

[College] as a part of a public service, a set of

columns that I did with Ron Chepsick. Winthrop

[College] sent these out to all the weekly and bi-

weekly newspapers, [the] small town newspapers in South

Carolina. There were about 120-some of those and on an

average around 60-some of these newspapers printed

these columns every week. So I think the Sally New

River column that I wrote was probably printed in more

than sixty newspapers including the Rock Hill Herald

the Rock Hill Times (the newspaper existed at that

time), the Fort Mill Times, and the Lancaster News and

the Chester News, those are all very local [South

Carolina] newspapers that a Catawba Indian, for

example, might have read, or anybody else who was









interested in it. I made reference to a claim that I

think is probably the most valid claim that the Indians

ever had, [I] published it after the lawyer for the

land owners' association had already read it, and

nobody ever called me about it nor wrote a single word

about it or seemed to be interested in it. After I

mentioned it, because I gave my source, I had asked

(the workers in the courthouse in Lancaster) at the

time [that] if anybody comes in here and wants to see

that particular book I would be interested in who

follows up.

Six months later after the column came out I went back in

there and one of the clerks in the clerk of court's offices

said, "I remember what you said and nobody ever came to look

for it." So, you know, it makes you wonder just how vitally

interested people are. The lawyer Dan Byrd for the Tri-

County Land Owners Association said that the court case at

that particular time, the time that I wrote this article,

had gotten to such a point that this would no longer would

be valid as evidence. It would not make a difference in the

court case to expose this, but what happened, I think, is so

fascinating. Sally New River had recorded 550 acres of

prime land inside the Catawba Indian land known as the Kings

Bottoms. (I thought I had something else here, but it does

not matter right here this moment.) This is in Indian land

in Lancaster County; it is where the spiritual home of the









Catawbas is. It is where the first Catawbas were located

when John Lawson came through on his famous trip up the

Catawba River and he talks about the Waxhaw Indians [an

extinct Siouxan people of north central South Carolina] and

then he mentions going to the Catawba Indians, and he says

he saw a field seven miles long. Now that is the distance

from present day Van Wyck up to the place where Sugar Creek

empties into the Catawba River, and it was right there at

the Sugar Creek entry on the Lancaster County side that they

had the major village, and this is where Sally New River's

cabin was supposed to have been. She, in 1796, reserved

this area called the Kings Bottoms, which was a lot more

than 550 acres, but that was the last land that had not been

leased out in 1796, 550 acres. She reserved it for the

women and the children of the nation -- themselves, their

heirs, successors or assigns, forever. She had the document

signed by General New River and the other head men of the

tribe just like Samuel Knox had had it signed by a group of

Indian chiefs, and four of the five state appointed land

commissioners in the year 1796 signed that particular

document. Her husband was still living and it was not until

he died in 1804 (General New River) and four years after

that in 1808, [that] she had it recorded in old book N in

the land deeds of Lancaster County. That particular deed,

for 550 acres to the women and children of the Catawba

Indians forever, was put in a courthouse. And I do not









think you can find another single deed of that fashion which

was signed by the chiefs which was recorded exactly like

that in a courthouse.

E: What has happened to that land?

P: Well, the land now is owned by white men, of course. A

few years after she died, sometime in the winter of

1818-1819, something begins to happen to it because the

last of the land is leased out to a man named John

Dobie in 1825, and it shows on a deed which is in the

surveyor's rent book of the Catawba Indians. It still

survives.

E: There were two of those Dobies, I believe, and Mr. Nisbet is

descended from one of them.

P: No, he is not descended from him, he has the house that

was built by John Dobie. John Dobie himself went out

to Arkansas. [He] left here in about 1856. But it was

rented out by a Dobie. The other Dobie, his brother

William Dobie, coincidentally [had his] land is on the

other side of the river where the current reservation

is. Doby Road bridge out there in the Fort Milt area

is named for the both of the Dobies; I could not be

positive exactly how that goes, but it does not matter.

It gets leased. So whoever must of leased it within a

few years after her death. ([They] must have been the

Sally New River's heirs, whoever they were.) That

stayed there in the courthouse, but now I have not told









you really why it would have been so hard to find.

When I said you would find it in book N, it happened

that I was looking through that book. I was looking

for the name of somebody whose name started with an R

in an early period. These deed books were cross

indexed. I was going down the Rs in one of the books

and I saw a last name that said River and that was the

way it was filed, River. My eye went on across the

page. On the far side of this rather wide page was the

first name, and the first name was New, New River.

Now, if I had not known about Sally New River and

General New River and something about the Catawba

Indians, that would not have meant anything to me. But

I had already gotten interested in that part of it. So

I found the page number for the index in the book.

When I got down the book, that is when I found the

particular deed that I had been talking about that is

so unusual. Sally New River's deed of 550 acres [of]

prime river land. You know the Catawba river on the

Lancaster County side tended to flood periodically.

The banks were higher, or something of that kind on the

York County side [so that] they did not get flooded

nearly so frequently. So the rich soil went on the

Lancaster County side and that still is the richest

spot on the Catawba River all up and down, down to

Camden.









E: [Regarding] the status of the treaty today, how do you think

it is going to come out and how it is going to affect the

Indians that are living on the reservation?

P: Well, I am hoping that this December it will be

settled. This is a terrible burden for both sides of

the controversy and it should be settled. As you know,

they started with suits, and it has been in courts, and

it has been to the supreme court several times, and

[to] various federal and appellate courts, and they

have not been able to settle that, though they have

made considerable progress in that direction. Anyone

would be impatient at this particular time to get it

settled in order to get things -- like bringing in

industry and football teams or whatever. All of these

local, present day economic concerns have caused them

to want to settle this particular thing. They

pressured the governor to appoint enough appropriate

people to a committee, and made Congressman John M.

Spratt, Jr. [from South Carolina, Fifth District], the

chairman of that committee to settle it, and this is an

out of court type of settlement. I hope that John

Spratt will be successful for a lot of reasons. One, I

think that this will bring it to an end quicker,

perhaps fairer. I cannot say. I am a great admirer of

Congressman Spratt. I will add that. I cannot think

of any one who is better suited or more capable of









taking over a situation like this and using his skills

to bring it to an end. They hoped to have a settlement

ready in December. I hope that it works out equitably

and satisfactorily to both sides.

E: You were suggesting once for me to interview [him]. You

think John Spratt would be an excellent one for me to talk

to, do you not?

P: Certainly, if you can catch him. He is so busy.

E: I will try that. I am a great admirer of him as you are

too.

P: Right now, particularly, he is running for reelection,

and this is a reelection burden for him because some

people think that he is [End of tape side, thought is

never finished.]

E: You [have] picked up things that happened in the

revolutionary war from the activities that tribes and people

had together. So let us see what you want to tell us about

that.

P: All right. In the history of the Catawbas there is one

boast that we hear continually right down to the

present time: that the Catawba Indians always sided

with their white neighbors in the course of war. That

is almost true, I guess it is about 95 percent true.

There was one war so early in the state's [South

Carolina's] history that we were still under the lords

proprietors [eight noblemen who were given a charter in









1663 by Charles II that included South Carolina, North

Carolina, and Georgia and extended westward to the

Pacific Ocean]. In the Yemassee War in 1715, the

Catawbas started out on the side of the Indians against

the Englishmen, but they switched sides, dropped out of

the war, were not happy with it, and we can say that

after about 1718, the Catawbas did always fight on the

side of their neighbors. First their neighbors were

Englishmen, of course, until we declared independence

in 1776 from England, at which time the Catawbas joined

with their neighbors fighting against the English. The

Catawbas have gotten a lot out of the English. They

have been used by the English for tracking runaway

slaves, bringing in dear skins, just hunting and

bringing in all kinds of things, and had been treated

quite well. They were a buffer group against some of

the invasions of northern Indians. They fought with

Thomas Sumter [an American Revolutionary officer who

organized an irregular force in South Carolina after

the English captured South Carolina in 1780] when he

came up in this particular area. They were largely

noted for performing intelligence: spying on the

English, coming and telling Sumpter where they were,

[reporting] any kind of troop movement. There is one

story about a Catawba who waited until the English

officers were sleeping at night, he had climbed up a









tree and he was listening to what they had to say from

the tree. They went to sleep. He climbed down and

went back [and] told Sumter what it was [they were

planning], how many there were, what their plans were

and that kind of thing. Somebody said that the

Catawbas absolutely refused to stand up against cannon

[fire], which might show their intelligence not do that

kind of thing. They had an admirable record. Now,

while the Catawba men, about forty of them, were

fighting, the Catawba villages were simply evacuated

and the women and children went to live in Virginia

with the Pamunkey Indians all during the coarse of the

war. When they came back they found that their fields

were, of course, in disarray, many of their houses had

been torn down by apparently white neighbors or

whoever, maybe other Indians. No one is really quite

sure on that. [These people] had pretty much destroyed

whatever they had; they had to rebuild. One of the

Pamunkeys came back. Well, he married a Catawba woman.

[He] had a pretty good education. His name was

variously spelled Mursh or Marsh or Mush, Robert Mursh

is the most common name that is used. He came down and

he joined with the founder of the Flint Hill Baptist

Church north of Fort Mill [South Carolina], fairly near

Pineville, [in] 1792 with a revolutionary war veteran

by the name of Reverend John Rucker who founded that









particular church. Now, I keep adding my ancestors; in

the course in all of this I found out that Reverend

Rucker was my ancestor too. So that made a third

person who was very much involved. Mursh was made

assistant pastor. [He] joined the Flint Hill church

[as] assistant pastor. They were scattered about in

different places and if one could not reach out to a

church, the other one would go. He preached to both

whites and to Indians. He hoped to convert the Indians

to the Baptist religion, but he failed to do so.

Rucker hoped to Christianize them, and also Rucker

tried setting up a school over in the Indian land. So

far as I know, it was the first school that Indian land

ever had. It was one for the Catawba Indians, and [he]

hired a person named James Lewis to teach in that

particular school. With Lewis and with Mursh, the

dream was that the Catawbas would come in to the

church. Now, they had some members at Flint Hill and

there were at least four known Catawba Indians buried

in the Flint Hill cemetery.

E: Are there markers on those graves?

P: There are no markers, but the names still exist in the

church records. Flint hill fortunately had records

from the very beginning.

E: Mursh then would be an Indian from Virginia. Was he full

blooded?









P: He was a full blooded Pumunkey Indian. He later will

get a revolutionary war pension and it gives a lot of

details of his life, his background, his children, and

the reasons for his services. It is a very lengthy and

very interesting record which is in the national

archives.

E: I am interested in following through that question of

religion, because the Methodist and Presbyterians tried to

reach the Catawbas here on the reservation and they failed.

P: Yes.

E: But here at Flint Hill, and I know that area, they are

making some headway.

P: Well, they made some. That is, they apparently

converted a few who did attend. But it was not as much

as Rucker hoped for because I have a quote. I think it

is from David Hutchinson who was one of the very early

superintendents of Indian affairs and who was very

interested in all of this. Hutchinson gave a little

thumb nail sketch of the personality and the ideas of

John Rucker, [and] about his loving to hunt. He would

go hunting with the Indians [for] long periods of time,

and enjoyed it tremendously. [He] learned most of

their skills and their knowledge in such things as

that. He said that Rucker confided with him that in

spite of all of his efforts he was beginning to feel

[he] may have done them more harm than [he] did good.









This was in his old age; he did not die until about

1840 or 1842 something like that, very old age. So, I

think what happened there, and I think back to my own

experience with the children I had in Arizona. It is a

very difficult thing to be torn between two cultures.

Neither completely one nor the other, or to be in one

and tempted by the other to change, and then what to

do. I think Rucker with his long association with them

finally realized that probably they were happier and

healthier living their own particular lifestyle than

what he was seeing by the 1840s, which was a lot of

people who had rented out their land had nowhere to go.

They were nomads. They were worse off than the first

records of them by the white men. So, I think that is

what Rucker was talking about, and, of course, Rucker

lived long enough to see the land go from the hands of

the Indians into the hands of the white men by title.

His son was one of the surveyors that actually surveyed

in 1841.

E: What happened to the language and the blending of those two

cultures together?

P: Well, gradually the language just actually simply

disappeared. We have some testimony from ethnologists

[and from] Smithsonian people. Well, the best actual

vocabulary list of words, [the] longest most extensive

one, was done by Oscar Lieber, who was a state









geologist and he did it in 1856. And I do not see many

references of that. That is why I bring it out here.

That is one of the best sources that is not frequently

known about, yet I have seen the list in the Winthrop

College library. You have to get into the State

Archives to get [record of] what Lieber did as a

geologist, as he was going around looking for gold

mines and all. But he got interested in the Catawba

Indians. He was the son of the president of the South

Carolina College. [His name is spelled] L-i-e-b-e-r.

Dr. Frank Speck came here in the 1890s and on into the

1920s, or was it early 1930s. I cannot remember, but it was

a long period and I know some of the writings. Some of the

best were pre-World War I. He had attempted to take down

the words known at that particular time, especially for

objects that he would point to. From the way he wrote it, I

gathered that was what he was doing, [pointing to] physical

objects [and asking], "What do you call this?" [He asked

the names of] objects, names, words related to medicine,

[words related to] to hunting and fishing and trapping,

various practices like that.

Lewis Scaife wrote a monogram about 1896 in which he

gave a history and condition and he called it "Of the

Catawba Tribe," which also is interesting. It includes a

little bit of language, not much. Speck was better at that

particular thing. Then of course on up to the present,









there are snatches of things. I have heard Gilbert Blue

make his talks and he usually makes his initial greeting to

his audience in Catawba language. Some phrases, sentences,

perhaps, but not a great deal has survived of it. I think

that is perhaps the major indicator of how much the Catawbas

have adapted to the white culture.

E: I can tell from talking to you that you admire and respect

the heritage, the history of these Indians, and you see

something wonderful, I hope, for the future of them. Do you

think they will be complete assimilated into our society or

do you think they will retain their culture, their history,

their pottery making, [and] all their crafts that they have.

P: Well, I think they will have to do both. [They] need

to do both, and I think that is rather hard to do. I

certainly would hope that they would be as interested

in their past history, which is very hard to research,

much harder to research than it is for me to do my own,

[as I am in mine]. But they do have an interest, and I

understand that they have projects in which Wenonah

Haire and Roger Trimnal and some of those are

interested in.

E: Frances Wade is another one.

P: Frances Wade, absolutely. The things that those people

are doing, I think, is very valuable. Someone asked me

what I thought would be fair for the Catawbas to get

out of this settlement, and I said what I think is fair









is enough money, I cannot put a particular dollar sign

on the particular amount of money, but enough money

that there would be established a tribal fund that

could be administered by an appropriate group. I

presume that they would be all, or nearly all, Catawba

Indians, but not necessarily so. There might be some

government agencies that would have to have

representatives there. But that it would be earmarked

for the two most important things that they need, and

that is education and health care. Whatever else that

they might have -- and maybe this also relates to

education in a way but it also relates to heritage and

pride -- I would hope there would be an appropriate

Catawba museum (if that is what it is), a facility that

would include museum display areas, pottery making

areas, areas in which they could display the artifacts,

as well as whatever is related to their history and

whatever might be available to them. They could take

their children to see [this], and others too, as a part

of education.

E: Have you seen any of the dances that they are trying to

revive, the dancing of the young people, the children.

P: Yes. I think that they ought to have video equipment

and whatever it takes to record all of these types of

things, these programs that are going on today, and

keep that into a kind of archives. I am thinking about









a large facility and well staffed. I think that should

exist. I think there should be scholarships for any

Catawba youngster. I am like Bill Clinton here. He

says for any American who is capable of going to

college, there should be some way that the government

can offer assistance if it is needed to see that those

minds are not wasted. I think there should be funds

for these Catawbas for that, and other educational

materials and programs that might exist. These might

be summer course and weekend things, but also I would

like to see these children go out into the community

and perform at such things as the Museum of York

County, the things that Winthrop or any school might

invite them to do, where ever they happen to bring

together large groups of people. So I think all of

those things, health care. (I hope it is better for

all Americans.) I am hopeful it will get to be well

enough that we would say that there would not have to

be anything special for the Catawbas; they would just

simply share in the same kinds of things that all the

rest of us do. But until that time, I think there

ought to be a medical clinic out there.

E: I can tell from talking with you, you are impressed with the

leadership that is coming from the Catawbas themselves to

carry on their work. And they seem to be cooperating, which

is very fine.









P: Yes. Sometimes I hear things contrary, that there are

spats and differences over pottery making, and over

some other things, and I think that would be true in

any small community. Or at least any that I have ever

lived in, there has never been any complete agreement.

But I do think their leadership has been good. I think

Gilbert Blue's leadership has been outstanding. He has

had a terribly difficult task. He has impressed me as

a genuinely good person with a great deal of integrity.

I have heard him speak to audiences who are not

antagonistic, but certainly not aware of and have never

heard of a hearing before or anything like that, and

you can tell from the expressions on their faces that

they are impressed. It is not just myself, but I have

seen this in a number of audiences, so.

E: Other leaders that have come to the front are Fred Sanders

and Carlson Blue. They are outstanding. You know, I feel

that Rock Hill [South Carolina], Winthrop College and this

whole area of Catawba Indians are very fortunate to have you

with your knowledge and your interest in them. We are very

fortunate to have you.

P: Well, thank you.




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