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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM4 216A
Page 1.
INTERVIEWEE: El9sha Dial/petty Rogers
INTERVIEWER: Adolph Dial
July'26, 1971
D: Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one,
two. Testing one, two. Testing.... Testing one, two. Testing one, two.
Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing....Testing one, two.
Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing one, two. Testing.
Testing. This is July the 26th, 1971.. Adolph Dial speaking, Pembroke
State University, Professor of History and Government. I'm here in
Hoke County with my uncle, Elisha Dial, and his, and his granddaughter-
in-law, Mrs. Betty Rogers. Mrs. Betty Rogers is one of my former
students at Prospect School and also Pembroke State University. What
is your age? I'm going to call you Mr. Dial in order to make this
.easier. Mr. Dial, what is your age?
F: Eighty.
D: Eighty, what, what year did you come to Hoke County?
E: '17 I believe.
D: You moved here in 1917. I believe you said you married in 1914?
E: Yes.
D: Speak a little louder. What was Hoke County like when you came here?
What was the school situation like when you came here? Were there
any schools for Indian children at that time?
E: No, sir, no, no -chools for Indians.
D: How did you go about getting the school started?
E: Well, I met the Board of Education and they.'told me to go back and
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see how many I could find df students: If I could get thirty they
would give me a teacher'.' Well,' I came, backhand gotAthe number that
they asked for, rehit bback,i the siperirintrndent told me, he said, "Well,
you've 'got' thi inumibei,'" He Isaysv,' "Now +i4 go get you a teacher,
find 'you a teachiel 'sdmhie.tlP- So 'I't enet bdcki'own to, around
in that' section lah4dI foidnda' Ctirl dbri 'there, br 'the name 'of Della
Oxendine and I ded with her to take the school.
D: Do you remember what they paid her?
E: I think about forty dollars or something like that a month.
D: Now so you began with one,.you began with one, one teacher. This was
in the 1920s I suppose.
E: Yes, began with one teacher.
D: Did you have a school bus at this time?
E: No, we didn't have any school bus.
D: How long before you had a school bus?
E: Oh, five or six years I reckon before we got a school bus.
D: How far would some of the students have to walk to school?
E: Well, three or four miles, five.
D: Some walked as far as five miles?
E: That's right, about fveumiles.
D: This was a one-teacher school?
E: One teacher, one teacher-school.
D: Now when they finished their, you didn't have a high school, did you?
E: No, sir.
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D: So they went a few years and then stopped out and went to work on
the farm most of them?
E: That's right. They went to the farm after they quit school. That's
a six months school at that time.
D: Now how-many months' school did they have when you were a boy?
E: Well, about three .months I believe when I started school.
D: Now when you, you went to school tell me about some of your earlier
childhood days. A while ago you remarked about drinking water out
of a stream and so forth. Suppose you tell me this story.
E: Well, we didn't have anything to'drink'water out of at that time but
the well.
D: This, is down in Robeson County.
E: Yes, that's Robeson County, old Prospect, and we went to the swamp
to drink the water out of the run because the well was filled up with
these green :,-e5 w cal1eC-cL ern- and wei couldn't drink that water.
We'd go down to the branch and lie down on our stomach and drink the
water out of the run and it was pretty and clear. It looked good and
it was good and then we'd go back to the school house, get our dinner and
eat that, !be ready for school. That would be at noontime. We didn't
get any water, only at recess or at noontime to drink. The teacher
I was goi'jg to school to was Reverend Moore, W. L. Moore, and his
daughter told me something down at the swamp and told me that...just
want me to speak it c.' ; o4os ?
"D; .Yes, speak i't as it was.
Some.
E: 4.Q bOf thte"boys had peed in the water, in the swamp, the branch, and
she told me to tell Mr. Moore, that was her father, about what the
LUH 216A
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boys had did in the branch and they couldn't get no water to drink
because they had peed in the swamp into the run. And so she told
me to tell Mr. Moore about it. So I got back to the school house
and I got out and X told him, I says, "Miss Emma told me to tell you
that the boys had peed in the swamp and we couldn't get any water to
drWnk down there." And he told one of the students there, William
Bl3e,"take me down to, out to the well and wash my mouth out with
a corn cob," and he satd, "Well' we can't fin4 no corn cobs around
here." He says, "Take -you up a huckleberry to scrub-your mouth out."
Well, I didn't do that. I told him if I had to do that we'd go back
just like I came.
D: So you went on back. o you remember, do you remember any other in-
teresting tales in your real early days, any fun or serious business
when you were in school? i
E: Well, I didn't get to go to school but: just a little while and I
didn't get a chance to go for just a few days school at that time
and'on the next year I got to go*a few days and that was just about
all' that 1 got. Two or three months schooling was all that I got.
D: You learned to read somewhere. How did you learn to read?
E; I learned to read. myself. I went to Wilmington on a train and bought
a book from the porter and asked "him, "What kind of book is that you've
got?" He said, "This is a self-educating book. Everything in this'
book that you get in. school." So I told him to give me one of them
thaei He pays, "They're a dollar' and d half." I says, "Well,' I want
the book."' So he, I paid him for' the book and he give me the book.
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LUM 216A
I went home and studied that book and there's some of everything
in that book that you get out of school.
D: Now how old were you then?
E; I' was, about six, seven, sixteen years old.
D: What were you doing on the train going to Wilmington?
E: Well, r had a sister down there that lived below Wilmington. I was
going' down to visit her.
D: Which one?
E: Catherine Ann.
D: So that was the beginning of, this was before you married, and that
*^e
wasAbeginning of you learning to read and write with this book you
bought from the porter. Do you recall the name of-that book?
E: No, I can't remeinber the name of that book right now.
D: You bought it from the porter on the train.
E: Bought it from the porter, yes. He told me there was everything in that
"book that you could get in school.
P.: Speaking of Wilmington, did you ever go down to Cherry Grove to the
beach?
E: Oh, yes, I've been down to Cherry Grove when I was a.boy about seven
or eight years old.
D: This was back in the 1890s then, lat 1890s. Would you tell me about
your trip, how you had planned to go and how you looked forward to
it and so forth and how you would get ready to going and how the
trip would 'be on your way down and so o?
E: Well, I weit with -my father. He went down and with a five, one-horse
*i ,
LU4 216A
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wagon, went down with us. My father, Mr. Wesley Bullard,
"6oi Fro"n_ Locklear, Ellie Cloyd Lowry and William Blue,
we all five went down together with five wagons, one-horse wagons,
and drove all the way down to the beach and stayed down the rest
home,
of that week and the' drivedhon Tuesday of the next week. Took
us about two weeks to go down there and back by wagon and horses.
So that was my first trip to the beach. I was about seven or
eight years old at that time. Got on there and got -on the mule's
back and rode up and down the beach and I thought that was as much
sport as I wanted. I wasn't afraid of 'the mule falling down because
there wasn't no stumps or nothing like that. 5hu*ni-, over .
D: Did you have -a'covered wagon?
E: Yes, I had a covered wagon.
D: When would you usually leave and when gould you arrive?
E: Well, we'd leave home on Tuesday torniig and arrive down there about
Friday night, Friday evening.
D: How, long would you stay? > :
E: We'd stay till the next Tuesday ahd start home.
D: And when would you get home again?
E: About next Friday.
D: $o it was a. two weeks, it was a two weeks trip.
E: Two week drive; yes.
D: What all would you bring with you'home?'
E: Well,! we'd bring some salt fish-'fresh fish from down there. ;Sometimes
I
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we'd get out and hunt, kill possom, coons--there's plenty of them
down there. Just every while you'd get around there you'd find
them,
D: Well, you sa4d fresa fsh, how would you keep them fresh till you
got hbomS?
E: Well, we'd get them, just kind of take them out of the water and
pack'them down in a barrel, you know. We'd dress them like that and,
or they 'd dress them for us and we'd buy them right then and pack
them down in they'd salt them...
D: As far as..
E: ...in what they called a pot.
D: In other words they were fresh fish salted down.
E: Yes.
D: But they wouldn't be too, the time you arrived home you could cook
some of them as fresh fish I suppose.
E: Oh, yes. Yes, they...
D: You know `J yes.
E: We'd, we'd salt them when we'd get home, you know.
D: Yes.
E: Sali them again, you know, and then they'd stay all the rest of the
year like that. Theykxe e+-wa&e alonglin the summer the next year.
D: Did you enjoy fresh fish?
E: Yes, I did and ........ecause we couldn't get them up
here and Oe could enjoy them going down there cooking and eating.
D: What about Lumbee River, didn't you fish the Lumbee River any?
E: No, I never did fish in the Lumbee River.
LUM 216A
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D: Speaking of your diet, what was your diet like? You're eighty years
old and you're inr rghf good health, what was your diet like?
E: Well, most anything that anybody else would eat. Meat and bread
... O Stc S ;i : .l i l y .1 .1. 1 i l ,, I a I vI i
and fitsh,-foree-and things like that.
D; I believe you told me you never did drink milk.
E; Never did drink any milk in my life.
D: Never any milk in your life.
E: No cheese or nothing like that. No butter,
D: Yes, that's high cholesterol content. Maybe that's why you're living
so long. You laid off the milk. They're saying now it's not so good
jth
for children and so on. They're not recommending niA 7ey drink lots
of milk. 'Now while you were down would you do any hunting, would you
see many squirrels?
E: Plenty of squirrels down there, just about like the chickens is around i,
the yard. You'd get out there add kill them with a lik4u)ooO.l nt-+ or-
O_\ i_ i ._ They would run in front of you. Someone would
take their gun and shoot them, just plenty of themj-e4 aeyindown
there give us the privilege, the man that owned that parf of_
D: So you'd actually kill some with qi-k_+ooc.t nu.'
E: Oh, you could. Yes, you could. They're all around you. Just take
-f4'. lI j -Looc& uk If you hit him Lou'd kill him.
D: Yes,
E: -oLiJA kill them, you know, if lyou hive a rifle or a gun.
D: Did you pitch tents when you arrived at the beach or when you stopped
on the way down? Would you pitch a tent or what?
f Ii':'
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E: Well;.,it wasijusti'acordingitb hbii the weather looked. If it was
raining or' anything ltke* thad, why, w 'd d't iup'"geteIn the wagon,
covered wagon. We'd get ityouththei lit 'warIrAidink.it' We didn't
care nothing for building no tents or nothing like that. We 'd
just get in I the wagon and 'stay I while lthe rain as -goington.
D: Now backlwhen you :were, ayboywh ireIdid yourldad doelmostilof his
Shopping? ,i.;... pw i l yIi pit i i t l r l
E: Well, around Pace I believe is mostly the place where he did his
shopping.
D: Now before Pace, when he was a boy, where did he do his shopping?
E: You mean yy father?
D: Yes.
E: Well, he mostly done all the business as far back as I can remember
with R. W. Littlemore.
D: But I mean before that time when he was a boy, back before the Givil
War.
E: Oh, well, he...
D: He was born in 1838, August the, August the 19th, 1838. Now did you
ever hear him talk about.walking'to Fayetteville to shop?
E: Oh, yes, I've heard about that, yes. I've heard him say that.
D: Well, these people, these people who walked to Fayetteville, would they
go and come back the same day?
E: No, they wouldn't go. They'd probably be gone for a week maybe.
And then he rafted timber down the Lumbee River to Georgetown'in them
days.
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D: Oh, yes, he did, he did take part in that?
E: Oh, yes, yes, he, he went down there several trips. Take him two
weeks after he'd get his timber in the river to drive down to
Georgetown.
D: Yes, I knbw\ without thls. How, how would they do this timber?
E: They'd wrap At together, you know, in fleets, you know. Put several
logs together.
D: Would they tie, what would they tie them with?
;: With strips, you know. They'd get poles and nail them together, you
know so they couldn't scatter and so they could handlethem, you
know. So they'd drive down, they'd get a good raft of timber and they'd
get on that raft, they'd live on that raft, they'd cook and eat on
that, There'd probably be a couple of weeks to going down to
Georgetown and then about the same thing coming back. You'd have
to walk back to Georgetown, and after a way they'd get their little
money. They'd have'to wrap the timber down there and they'd shake :
it up down there at Georgetown. Pay them for it and then they'd get
back, walk back from their homer
D: They'd go right down Lumbee River into P.D.
E: That's right. Go down Lumbee River right on into P.D. Trail.
D: You say that usually this entire trip would be about a month?
E: It'd take them two weeks to make' that trip and then they'd walk
back f om Georgetown. A "-K A rgoF the timber.
D: Yes, I imagine it'd be a good three weeks, maybe four.
E: Yes, irnoimong ^_ about three or four weeks on making the
round trip.
LU 216A : ,
Page 10. ,dib; .. l ...
D: Would they cook right on top of a log.
E: Right on top of a log.
D: And sleep on top of them.
E: That's right.
D; Do you, do you remember any stories that he told back in those days
bout going to Georgetown?
E: No, I don't remember. I wasn't old enough to remember in those days.
D: Was this before the Civil War that he did this or after?
E: I think it was after the Civil War, along about the time it was
something like that.
D: Do you know if he was married then?
J
E: No, I don't, I don't know whether he was married or not.
D: Do you, do you recall any stories that he told you about the Georgetown
trips?
E: No, sir, I don't remember. I wasn't old enough to think much about it
when he was talking about it. I didn't try to keep any record of it.
D: Getting away from the beach now, when -you were a young boy, real young,
say fifteen or sixteen, what, what were the young boys doing for fun
back in your day?
E: Well, they worked on the farm for their father and mother, father.
D: What about fun and entertainment?
E: Well, t{ey didn't know nothing about that, any entertainment. Lots
of them going to school, you know, they might have what they call
school lobaing and.bhg dinner out there then and that's about
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all the kids ever got in them days.
D: Well, did they hunt, enjoy hunting and so on?
E: Oh, yes, you go down to the beach you could hunt.
D: Well, what about around here, didn't they they enjoy hunting?
E: Yes, they hunted around in a section 'r6tu'. -' They had plenty
of game than there ever was. a have plenty of it around Prospect
there'.' Way down orn tihe'beacl own oy 'the hunk" there's just every,
t., ," I I I
therets,' squrrelsaad possoms a o s nd' codn and everything, just plenty
of triem d w n t1 e ' hi iil:+++ i ,]- t I ir ,, i t l l s l : ." i
of them down theYre. ai tc thnem anyone.
D: In your young days how did your parents teach you to feel about a
white man?
E: Well...
D: Or what did they, teach you and so forth? What did they tell you about
white people?
E: Well, I never did get out amongst'the white people. I didn't know
nothing about them. My daddy always sit down probably if he had time
and tell us his old story about something or another, you know, way
back. But 1we were so little we didn't even know, understand what he
was talking about, and after I got up old enough to know,why,he got
out to work and I never had any. chance, you know, to pay any attention
0
toA much. what he was talking about.
D: Well, how dq you feel about white people in your young days?
E: Well, I'didn't know nothing about them. I didn't know one thing about
them. I never had seen none of them much until I saw a white man PuI j
LtJc fmrcftrl1 Q qo5hY>%. except Mr.' Elislah Brown.
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.' ,1 t 1 + I 'I. 1 1 I: t I t ,
D; In other words your contact with the white man was far removed.
I l lI
You didn't come in contact with. him very often.
E: Not in later years probably even after I got grown and got to
I I '. t I i .1 1 I
working out in publte work, I began to talk with these white people
I I i I i I i.+ +. i l i. i. r' ,I ) i > L .' y i 1 1 ,
and colored people.;
D: Did you grow up to kindly dislike them?
+' ..< .i r ," l'l i '.,i: l. l'r w n .
E: Well, no, 1 liked the colored people and I liked the white people.
They was all nice to me here, mighty good people.
D: Well, didn't you realize back in those days that the white people
were taking advantage of the Indian people?
E: Well, yes, I'd hear my father and other people say things about that,
but I was so small until I didn't think nothing about it, you know.
P: Did you ever hear him talk about, did you ever hear your dad tell
about them, white people taking the Indians land or putting things
in his barn and claiming he stole them' and'so forth?
E: No, I never did hear him say anything 'about that. I heard that
after I got to be a grown man and I'd bear people speaking about that,
you know, :iwy back the old people of the white people coming in and
taking their, the Indian's land,.you know, from them.from out of
Scotland and for Scotland I believe he said and some other place over
there.
D: Speaking of education did, do you remember or did you ever hear him
tell of having their own schools and paying their own teachers and
so forth. without the state doing'it?
E: Yes, I remember that. I went to school along in them days. That's
r '
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when I was going to school.
D: Where were you going to school?
E: I went to what they called the Barton Schoolhouse in Prospect.
Do Now the Barton School, who paid the teachers?
E: Well, I don't know about that. I never did...
D; I mean when I say who, the state or the people.
E: I think the people paid the teachers when it first started. The-
parents would get together and pay him:. so much I think.
D: I see. What was that school like, the school room?
E: Well, it looked like, just like it is now. It wasn't as large and
there wasrnt as many students then as there is now, you know. If uAS
ju-5f a-r-
guoeeokbe ordinary school building. Prospect was just a medium
size building and up there to the Barton Schoolhouse was just an
ordinary building.
D: One room?
E: One room, yes, and Prospect was dne room.
Hto-e.
D: And a fire-place or heater?
E: Fire-plac.
D: All of yod tried to sit around the fireplace?
E: That's right. I would sit there.'
D: What" kind of bench you have?
E: We had a wboden bench,
D: Did you hbVe A desk?
E: Well, r think they had the desks built'in the back of the schoolhouse.
11 X
LUM 216A
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D: Di4 you use a slate?
E: Well, that's what we started with. at f rst, you know, and we'd
use a slate. I'4 go to the blackboard sometimes and...
D: Now- wth your books, 4did you use a, what did you call that thing you
used to keep from wearing out your books, *sumf pads?
E; Sum?
D: Yes, did you have a little pad you put...
E: Oh, yes, they, you had to keep your little paper like this thing here.
Doubled it up and put it on to your thumb because that thumb would
eat a hole slam through one of them leaves in the back.
D: You didn't know that did you, Mrsl. Rogers.
E: Yes, sir,.mine...
D: I used to hear my mother talk about that.
E: ...mine would eat a hole through fthe hole, that book slam to the
back of it.
D: Seems like it'd 'take you a long time to learn that page. You need
to turn that page. t
E: We'd turn it, but it'd be right over the next page, that same thing.
It wouldn't take ou long to get through that leaf. When you started
the book you'd start in there, you'd hold it with your thumb, you know,
a book like that. Wouldn't be but a few weeks before the sweat or
something done eat a hole through" that fnd they just keep on eating
Sand eating"and the leaves would be coming up above your thumb, you know,
and your thumb is going on down toward the back of the book. ?ckor-
S.. 4 'oC be on the back. You couldn't' the leaves down then. They
just come up, yoO know.
_ ____ ________ p__-_______________'' i--------------- -----
LUM 216A
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D: Was there more drinking going on in your young days or would you say
more today among the Indian people?
E: I didn't understand just what...
D: Did you have more people drinking alcohol in the young, in your
young days or more today?
E; Well, they drank pretty bad in them days. Most, everybody mostly
would drink pretty well.Ho0i oi 4et h1- u as a little rough some
places.
D: What do you mean by rough?
E; Well, they'd fight, shoot at one anothrr,,you know. sometimes kill'
somebody.
D: Do you think the -men back then were braver than they are today?
E: Well, I don't think so. I thinkthey All come along about the same
wajy same-.thing. I don't think there's much change in them. They
didn't have no education in themidays,3you know. The father, the
mother didn't have any education Aand they couldn't teach the thild
and what little schooling they got to about three months.
D: Well, now%'in your boyhood days what was the most important thing that
you' look forward to? Say when you were twelve, fifteen years old
o or something, what was the most important thing that you'd always
look forward to?
E: Well, I' didn't have no particular things, working all the time in
the new ground ditching, my daddy would have te a ditching and a
clearing 'and all the time.
D: Well', didn't you hve, look forward to ioing something? To have a
little funl?
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LUM 216A
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E: Well, we didn't know nothing about nothing like that much.
D: Well, you'd look forward to 'going to the beach, wouldn't you?
E: Well, that was years after, well, later on after that. I didn't
go but one time when I was a boy. I went one time.
D: It thought maybe you went every year.
E: No, no. One time till I got married and got grown and went myself.
D: And what did you think the beach was like when you first stared
as a boy?'
E: Well, it just looked like a big ocean of water there. You...
D: You have never read about it, have you?
E: I've never read about it nor saw'it. We got on our mules back
and rode tp and down the beach. We enjoyed that. That was good
riding. You get up there and you could run a mile down the beach,
you know, was on your mule's back, back and ride all you wanted to.
D: Did the puIllen' fsh out with the netsnlike they do today?
E: Yes,q they had nets then. Yes, they had the same thing then that they've
got how,....net on the ground. They'd pick them up and stand them up
or fit4': tiem up in barrels and thingsi'you know, just about abet
like they do now, r
D: Now when you arrived at the beach, of course, there was lots of people
there fror4 other places and so forth, did you all kindly get in your
!
own group or did all of you mix together with the whites and the black
and all? How did you do?
E: At the beach? Well, there would iiever'be nobody down there.
1 :h 1
r I I II
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Page 17. i', .. il iu dib
I, '' i :'-1 !, t.t.: i u 1 V F -r l 1,. ,,b ,l y Ilt Iw n i l k .,
I would never see anybody around there then except the people that'd
be coming out there, country down there.
D: Well, there'd be people there from other places.
E: Well, there'd be very few, very few people there.
D: Would you all associate With the other people there?
E; We was always getting in a group ourselves and they'd get over in
another group and that's the way it would work out.
B: You didn't mix much with them?
E: No, we didn't bother with them. They didn't bother us and we didn't
bother with them.
D: So you had your first school. How did the Board of Education feel
about giving you supplies and so forth, things that you needed for
this schooling'you had asked them for?
E: Well, I didn't know. You had to go to school long enough to know just...
D: No, I mean your school here in Hoke County, how did...
E: Oh, they was willing to go out ahead and
help me to get the school organized. Told me to find a place --Ld-
build it and I could have it.
D: But your school was never like the whites, like that big brick building
here in Jacobs Point. There was quite a difference between those schools,
wasn't it?
E: Oh, yes./ Well,Aephow they built' that school, they didn't use it but
about two years before '4 '. a, and went that Rapan Bf. So
we didn't get no school till they built ...
D: Well, now when they built this big brick white school building at
Sr. *
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LUM 216A i I ., '. 1
Page 18. d' !i I .
Antioc, why didn't they give that 't Itihe Idans' aft'r they moved
to Rapanville? in
E: Well, some of 'them '' want'a' ttl' giV! i' to us and some didn't. So
"' thatwas " i-fe W L't ]"":"..' ". ". I'-. ,, ,., ',,, ,.*..,.,,,, ,'.,,
D; Why didn't they want you all to have that school?
E: Well, I never did learn why. I never did talk to them about it, you
know.'
D: What happened to that school?
E: Well, it went dead at Antioc. They didn't, they didn't teach there -
but two or three years in that building before they left.
D: What happened to the building after they moved out?
E: It's there yet.
D: And that was a right nice brick building that you all would have
been glad to have.
E: Oh, yes, it's a nice building all right.
D: But they didn't want the Indians to have it.
E: Well, some of them wanted the Indians to have it and some didn't.
That's the way, that's what theytsaid.
D: Who bought that school?
E: I don't know whether it's ever been bought yet-unless WalterlGibson
bought it. I' believe he finally bought that.
D: How iuch did he pay for it, Mrs. 'Roger?
R: I don't have any idea at all, but I imagine it was just a nominal sum.
E: I believe ihe paid ten thousand dollars for it or something like that.
D: Mas." Rogezs, what was your idea as to why they didn't want them to have
this school?
LU 216A
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i i \,l i (.' i ;;i ,/ Dill 'i(Lc'..i J. .; [ v> \;lio L. lil y d i,ii l' t %. l III[
R: Well, I can only offer my op union based on observations based
on my little knowledge of the agricultural economy in Robeson
and surrounding counties. It was not economically beneficial
to the white man to encourage the Indians to have education because
they wouldn't want to work the farms for nothing and they would
know, too, when they were being cheated.
D: So you're saying that they would only want them to have just a
little, not much...
R: Only what the law demanded and.,- ....
D: And what they really demanded.
R: Right.
D: And they would hope that they wouldn't demand too much.
R: Right, only, they, I think they only gave what, what they had to in
order o L556OSUjI their conscience and try to satisfy the la6 in
the least degree.
D: Now here we'll:-say your two are what, three generations apart?
Four? Yed, yes, you are one, two, three, three generations apart
and I wonder what the thinking is now here on the school situation.
How do yod view it today, will you tell me something, Mrs. Rogers?
You re teaching what is considered the best high school of Hoke
County and you teach twelfth grade English and you teach white
students, black students, Indian students and so forth. Would you
comment on this? r c
R: Well, I think the school system itself is a fine school system and
I think the attitude of the Board of Education and the principal
under whom' I'm working is, couldn't berbetter, and I don't know
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LUM 216A
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whether it's because they had to integrate and had to change
I l iC; 1 I I 1
their attitudes or what, but for whatever reason I'm glad it's
as it is. But I think as far as students' attitudes, and I'm
not blaming the students all together for this, poor education
is lamentable, especially the Indian students, and I think one
S1' I I 'tl I Ii i. ,, ) it
reason for this is that he is such a small percentage of the
total student population and he feels lost and overwhelmed in
this situation. Besides that education is really not encouraged
in the Indian homes as much,:Il think, as it is in the white and
4 i I I, i4 ii,,l ,l, I h ', n l i i i I,
the black home. Now I don't know why I ha that feeling. I guess
it's because of the attitude of the students thae I 'bb'served
in the classrooms. They don't ive that much for education.
They don't want to go beyond the)high school level to any extent.
I don't know how many seniors we had this time from Hoke High, Indian
seniors who went or planned to go on to college, but I don't think
it was more than three or four if that many, and I think I came
in contact with more Indian students than the other twelfth grade ft.r'\-f
D: Well, there must be a reason forlthis.: What would you...
R: I know, I know there is a reason and well, I know there's more than one
reason and I guess I would have to look at what the students do after
they.get out and try to assess what that reason is also, because when
the Indian students get out of high school they get a job to make some
money. They want that money in their hands that they won't be having
if they gd on to college or go to somecother school, and now,1you
might not' think that this would te typical but it's, it's becoming more
and more typical for the Indian boys especially to have his own car
LUM 216A
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before he gets out of high school and his whole life is planned
around that automobile right now, and that's why' he has to work -
to support that automobile. He just doesn't, he just doestAe
A .. anr he doesn't have that spirit of being willing to
put off pleasures and things to start for that education that he
has to have.
D: How'do you, how are you treated by your friends in the school
profession at school?
R: Well, I couldn't be more satisfied with my treatment there either.
D: I've always felt personally as a Lumbee Indian myself, there seems
to be some difference between whites we'll say, on the professional
level and then socially mixing with Htrv_, on Sunday afternoon.
Would you comment on this?
R: Well, there is, there is no social mixing among the faculty at
Hoke High beyond the professional atmosphere of the school unless
maybe it'would be isolated individuals who go on a shopping spree
or something, but as far as communicating socially or in social
circles,'it's just not done yet.
D: Do'you ever have any of your friends to come out? You all ever
take a tkip or anything together, you'and any of,the white people?
R: No, nonerwhatsoever. This one lady, boris Hastings, she and' I go
around'pretty much together all the time because we have our rree
p periods together and she has invited me to her home for lunch and
I've gon4 and of course I'd reciprocate except that the time that
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LUM 216A
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we have to communicate during school or to socialize during school
is limited, so we just don't do that. And I think to be perfectly
honest I, I don't feel that she would really be too enthused about
coming to my home.
D: And actually you're not too enthused going to hers.
R: Well, no, I, I really honestly would not feel comfortable going
to her home to participate in any social affair with her circle
of friends.
D: So I guess it's about as broad one way as it is another.
R: Yes, yes.
D: Do you fell that prejudice exists among Indians as much as among
the whites?
R: Ye, I do. I have to say this honestly and I tell you I guess one
thing that brought this to my attention a long time before I ever
had any hopes of going to college andireally being able to analyze
the situation'like this, was th lan-Indian class at Maxton when
the .lai "&AC Indians had their mutual riots. I went over there
and I fully expected to see what I sa*.
D: You, are you saying that you attended the clan rally in '58.at...
R: Right. 5 X 1
D: Yes', tell me about this.
R: Well, my husband and I and Henry, Mr. TDial's son, and his wife
whd was, iell, she wasn't his wife thin but she is now, we knew
that the meeting was going to bd over there and so we decided to
go and we went and we were all ebccited about what we were going to
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LUM 216A"
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see because we knew that the day had passed when the Indians wasn't
going to cower no more, and so when we got there it was just a few,
minutes before the thing got started and the cars were, had lined
both sides of:the road and as I remember there were three bare
bulbs, bulbs, light bulbs hanging on some poles stuck in the ground
and that was the only light there. Neither one of those bulbs as
I remember, was too close to the speakers stand which was already
erected. But anyway by the time that we had gotten turned around
and headed back the way which we had come in everybody kind of
flowed across the road from the cars afd went over near the speaker's
stand and of course when the first shot rang out that meant the
lights were gone and everybody just started generally shooting and
I really think that most people must have shot up in the air because
nobody god injured that I know of.
D: Now how many people would you estimateito be there?
R: Well, I think that there was somewhereein the neighborhood of two
hundred and fifty to three hundred, but what I went to see I saw
and I can't honestly say that I didn'teenjoy it. But I also had
another feeling. I saw something in odr people also that was not
pretty. t
D: And what was that? 9
R: It was the hate and the anger and the same kind of frustration& and
prejudice 'that they were objecting to.' They were expressing the
same thing. Maybe they were a little more justified and if you can
(* l .E.:
LUM 216A 1I 1'1 '
Page 24. i
11: 1),. /b h .y uf-'r a i t I I i l I : i : jt:t. i I it' l i
say that you are ever justified in violently assaulting anybody,
but maybe the intent was not to violently assault and just to
violently frighten. Whatever it was the lan was frightened and
they left, but also...I left,there was plenty of sympathy for them
because I realized how stupid and ignorant these people were and
we were behaving in the same way.
D: Let's see, a question here. Let's see, describe some more of the
Slain rally at Maxton.
R: As far as I am able to determine the speaker that night never
appeared on the platform. He may have begun to appear and maybe
that's when the shots started. I don't know, but I know, though,
about twdhty-five or thirty shots fired and with that many shots
being fired I don't think the intent and the purpose of the clash
was to shed blood. If it had been thdre was ample opportunity
to shed the blood. I think it was to fight more than to mame and
o K
kill. -s ,i. t m9e a point.
D: Now if they, if they had resisted you think the Indians of course,
there may have been some bloodshed.
R: Right, I fully believe there would have been some bloodshed, but I
knew a week before we had planned ahead when we heard that the meeting
was'going to be over there. I had, I had told my husband that there
was'going'to be-a riot and I knew it would be and of course he knew
there wasi'going to be a riot, but he didn't call it a riot. I guess
he, he'd considered it the last straw.
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D: Mrs. Rogers, sometime ago when you were at Pembroke State University
you said something to me about the curriculum, you said something
about curriculum. In other words you were speaking specifically
about the treatment of the native Americans, the American Indians
in the North Carolina textbooks and you did something about that.
Would you'tell me about this incident and the response and so forth
and so on and how you look at it today and what you're doing and
so forth.
R: Well, the textbook in question is entitled, Your Country and Mine,
which is 1 think ironic because the...'
D: What grade?
R: Fifth grade, fifth grade level, because the textbook really doesn't
). live up to that in the full sense of the title and the reason I
say that is the image of the American Indian in there which is
portrayed as a coward and a robber and he's bloodthirsty and 'he's
really kind of stupid. He's childlike. And I didn't think too much
about this, so I wrote Dr. Craig Phillips, who is state superintendent
of public instruction, and he didn't answer my letter, but one of
his assistants did and he told m6 a lot of things which amounted
to really'nothing about the fact that they have supplementary ma-
terials t6 use along with these textbooks to amplify some of these'
things and to really, to elucidate somi of the things that the
textbooks might have presented id a manner unfavorable to the Ameri-
can Indian, but I think it was a'lot of rot in a way of getting rid
L: C ;H '
I i ', \ i I [ I T V I I I .
I- I
1W i l -I, i"L ,' ,,' i I '
14UH 216A
Page 26. dib
of me. And I think he, he is not as wise as I think state superin-
tendent o pub4.l -enstruction should be to overlook an ethnic
stereotype in a social studies group which really has no place
there. History is supposed to be fact and I think they left out
a lot of facts. As a matter of fact I'm sure they did and they
elaborated and made many fairy tales to make a point about the
heroism of the caucasian Americans to the detriment of the Ameri-
can Indian and I did not get any further wiirr teSuJt4S after
having written Mr. Phillips about the textbook. But a friend of
mine who was in college with me, she is: working in Washington,D.C.
this summer with the Commission on Civil Rights, and she remembered
and she gave me a form to use in criticizing the book and to mail
back to her for use in the civilr'rights, some civil rights project
or something. But anyway that'sfwhat i'm presently doing about it.
ButI think it's, it's tragic that they would take our tax money
andmisuse it this way. If, I think it would be better not to have
any social studies in the fifth grade at all if this is what they're
goitg to waste their money on, and give us the money to build schools
with.
D: Now how mdny in the twelfth grade in Hoke, how many Indians do you
teach, how many black and how many whites do, could you give me
some breakdown on some of your classes?
R: Well, I hAd, I had about a hundred and fifty-three students all to-
gether and I think I took a tally one time and I had about sixteen
E. t 1
I f, ^ *
..,- i 'I. ,'l i i iI ,_ ._, ___i. .,, i_ _.
LUM 216A
*~ i I 11.1 ll 11 ; : l 1 11t:l 1: .I l i I I h ti. l 1 ,
Page 27. dib
Pag llitt2l. .1. t il. a l lI y ,i Lw I., ;[1!J 1 l,:ii .,
Indians and then the rest, then the remainder was about fifty
percent, you know. It was better than fifty percent black because,
because of the ability levels that I had. It was probably about
sixty percent black and forty percent white ._e .
D: With sixteen Indians out of how many, about a hundred students?
R: I had sixteen Indians out of a hundred and fifty-three. See,
that's how many I had, and the other twelfth grade ia teacher,
she had about a hundred and seventeen students a day and she didn't
have that many Indian students because she, she had mostly college
prep students.
D: The Indians are very much in the minority in Hoke County with black
and white...
R: Well, black is the majority.
D: Black is the majority.
R: Black is the majority. :
D: Nov would you tell me something about the experience, do you find
any association between Indians and white or black and Indians and
or do all of them just do their 'own t~ing?
R: Well, in ithe classroom you see them group together in their own
little racial cliques. r I
D: You mean they sit separate in the classrooms mostly?
R: Right, right, and I don't think it's basically a thing of race.
I think it's just natural that anybody would congregate with his
own'friends and because we've been raised to live separately, of
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LUM 216A
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course our friends all belong to the same race basically.until
you get in the integrated school where you do have maybe a friend
who is black or a friend who is white. But still you may be seen
around campus with him and you participate in some of the extra-
curricular organizations with him, when you get in the classroom
you naturally gravitate toward your own racial friends.
0-
D: Do you try to break them up and alphabetize the group byAseating
arrangement or anything?
R: Yes, I do this periodically not just to break up the racial groups
but because these friends get together and they want to take a
social hour every now and then and you have to get them separated
so that they can realize that it's supposed to be an instructional
ve
period. But I, I think I haj a good relationship with my students.
I had some personality conflicts but Ilcan honestly say that I
didn't have any racial conflicts.' Evidentally they thought I was
mainly a pretty nice guy because I wag elected senior teacher
of the year.
honor-
D: Very goodA senior teacher of the yeaf. By the senior students?
R: Yes, uh huMh.
D: And do yod see much difference iri the young generation and say
the teaching generation, you know, amoig students...
R: In what .ay?
D: ... a far as breaking racial barriers? '
R: Well, I honestly think there is more, &at the, the teaching genera-
tion is mjre inclined toward that, that kind of thing than th6 stu-
danti are.1
F i c :
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vi 7 I i I !l .. ; I i l I I i '
-d t It l I -d l I i i 1 1, i ii 4 1 n ii I t I
D: You mean breaking it?
R: Right, because the students that I had are in that phase of their
life where they're Kltd you know, on the lookout for the
mate that they're going to live with the rest of their lives, and
they're not too interested in marrying somebody else of another
race because it's not socially or economically desirable, because
we still have strong prejudicial attitudes in our society, and the
kids are realistic.
D: So I guess realistically speaking, as a matter of fact my mother
always told me to marry Indians and there were five of us and
of course then.we did and...
R: Fine.
D: ...I suppose it has certain advantages'and the same goes for the
white or the black.
R: And then, too, I really think, I'thinkit would take a super strong
person to marry somebody of another rate, especially and live
in our community and fight the resistance all his life. I think
when you consider somebody in matrying'you think now how much
resistence am I going to get from my friends, from my parents and
the people that I'm going to be close to the rest of my life, and
Jo
sometimes you haveAdefer, well, most of them to defer these attitudes
because'it's just too much to fight all your life.
D: Yes, I suppose so. Too many battles.
R: Oh, you have too many battles to fight in your life to use all your
1 5
:-r
LUM 216A
Page 30. dib
energies fighting one and it's not a defeatest attitude. It's
a realistic one. You have to live in this world and you want
to live among people that you love and know that gives you a
feeling of security. So you have to decipher their attitudes
somewhat.
D: How do you feel that minority groups can teach identity and still
not teach prejudice?
R: Well, one way would be to get rid of the fifth grade textbook
that we're using, social studies textbook, because I think that
defeats any, any constructive purpose we could have in teaching
racial identity without teaching'prejudice, because it's books
like this that tend to perpetuate prejudice. And another thing
is to show people as people, which I think the social studies
textbook again could do.rather than showing the Indian as some-
body stupid who just runs into a group,;of soldiers who has a
gun. Teach the fact that this was part of the Indians belief about
showing his manhood. If he could makee:the coup, which is touching
his enemy without getting injured, he was really considered a
hero in ttat battle that day. But thelway we've been shown on
television and in social studies textbooks this was stupid and
it was a childlike thing to do, which in actuality was not. Show
how people have some of the same common problems like entry into
manhood. 3hat is it that the whfte American- uses to signify'that
he's becoming a man? One of the things is to make plans for when
you get ott of school. Another thing is to get a car.and another
', : .t1
< ^ t y' .
.1 I 9 ILi i,
LUM 216A ;
Page 31. db
thing is to become engaged to la, igl and get' married. Well, what
Ssh could do: ies to .shot how people in. other cultures' do; this same
thing in their own way, whete, we. cad' t downgrade, other cultures
because they don't doi the same way that whJtte Ametrian culture
has devised for its toffspriingA!r i it doesn'tmean that they are back-
ward or primitive,' because! many timers they ecouild teach us some
lessons just like. the reenet tstfone,:age culture that was I discovered
in the Philipines. They don't have any cavities because they
never had any, any sugar and something, or salt. So there's some-
thing to be learned, and they also had a method for cleansing their
teeth. This thing about teaching racial identity, I think we have
to in some way get the people responsible for curriculum development
and educate parents and begin educating students to see people as,
as people.and, and to, to awaken theif conscience in some way because
they're never really going to do anything until you find something
that you can stimulate besides this concept of curriculum Wrt-i
These social study textbooks, which i' my pet peeve, are really
a lot of fairy tales in many ways, and I was taught that history
was supposed to be objective and present the facts as they happened
without any glossing over or candycoating and whatnot. But we
don't get3it that way. We criticize the Russians for rewriting his-
tory tokwhichver premier is in! office, but we do the same thing
for IwhichTver of our ethnic groups id in the majority.
D: In teaching the three races do ybu feel that you have as many friends
among the Indians, whites percentage-wise and so forth?
1 '" i'
LUM 216A
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R: No, I really don t, because I, I think when it comes down to
things like showing that you're a warm person or can be a warm
and understanding person, I think the black child is more receptive
and more appreciative than the white child and maybe it's because,
I mean that I feil that way, but I get the feeling that, that the
white kids are, think ..you're not doing them any great favor
itEd'A 1Aher, and it doesn't make any difference you're
going to have to pass them anyway. But with the black kids it
was different.. I only had one black girl that showed any hostility
toward me at the beginning of the year, and she plainly told me
in her autobiography that she would prefer to have a black teacher
and I wrote her a note on her paper and I said, "Well, I hope race
doesn't make any difference in this classA" And by the end of
the secoAd six weeks she and I were getting along fine. Of'course
we didn't have any problems, any arguments or anything, but she
found out that I was not going to hold blackness against her.
D: Did any white student ever say that she'd rather have a white
student,'teacher?
R: No,' noneenever said that, but Pihave one girl who, she went to
Sor
the guidance office and told the guidAnce counselA3 that I was
prejudiceaand that's why we were having such a terrible time
getting along, and which is really not so, and I don't know what
was wrong with, with Diane. I do know she had a home problem and
she had dome from a school system, sh& had come from Asheville
where they had had a lot of racial problems, and I think
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LUM 216A .
Page 33. : '
that she-wbtrild probably warr" rac er bls -a.are>
but she told the 'guidance counselor thatd I tilted ier' because she
was white and' ail this that 'add t'he v'ther. "but she,' but I never
did take any points from' her.' 1 as always ar lrni grading her
and so after'that I'bolid her, 1Y said'I Id n' t'are what color
she was', 'but i 'waB 'edd up 'with'hh' add thal 'ii was' 'tting pretty
late' ixi 'the 'ye' t61, her b1" w^N *6f"atd le b''change
classes, but if she wouldn't straighten up she was going to have
to get out of my class, and I told Mr. Maynor that I didn't dislike
Diane at the first of the year, but I was rapidly coming towards
d;spising'her. But she straightened up. I guess she thought I
must have meant business after that time. She straightened up and
by the end of the year she was one of 'sweetest people I had in my
class.
D: Well, I certainly enjoyed this interview with my uncle, Elisha
Dial, the son of Marcus Dial, ana some of the stories relate: way
back because Marcus was born October the, August the 19th, 1838,
and here we have a span of three generations. Hoke County has
moved from a position where there were no Indian schools to where
they had a one-teacher Indian school, to where Mrs. Rogers now
works in an integrated situationiand yet racially-speaking mankind
still hasn't gotten to the point'where-he looks at man as man. Per-
haps there is prejudice among the blacks, among the red and among
the 'white and oftentimes each like their own little social groups
to do their'own thing, but th 46 being awarded the award of senior
LUM 216A
Page 34. dib
teacher of the year seems to show that she has worked well into
a situation and seems to be making lots of progress. Perhaps
a few hundred years from today there'll be a difference.
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