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Title: Miles S. Jones, Sr.
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Title: Miles S. Jones, Sr.
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Publication Date: 1969
Copyright Date: 1969
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Full Text
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA
INTERVIEWEE: Miles S. Jones, Sr.
INTERVIEWER: Adolph Dial
DATE: August 5, 1969





J: I was born in 1894.
D: You're getting around seventy-five, aren't you?
J: I will be seventy-five-on my:next birthday.
D: Mr. Jones, where were you born?
J: I was born in Sampson County, near Clinton, North Carolina.
D: How long did you live in Sampson',Clinton? How old were you when
youimoved here?
J: I stayed there until-1934.
D: In other words, you were over forty years old when you left
Sampson County?
J: That's it.
D: Did your father and your grandparents live in Sampson County?
J: Yes.
D: Your wife's parents and grandparents were from Robeson County?
J: Yes, sir.
D: Mr. Jones, what was your father's name?
J: John R. Jones.
D: And what was John R. Jones' father's name?
J: I was told his father was Beaman.
K: He was a white man, I suppose.
J: Yeah.
D: What was your mother's name?
J: Her name was Macie Ann Brewington.
D: Yes, the Brewington name is a very permanent Indian name up in
Sampson. I suppose there's more Brewington than any other name?





2
J: Yeah.
D: Now, what was Macie Ann's parents' name?
J: Well, they were Hardy Brewington.
D: And Hardy Brewington married Francis Hardin?
J: That's right.
D: And Hardy Brewington's father was Raeford Brewington?
J: That's right.
D: Now that was Hardy Brewington's wife's name?
J: Francis Hardin.
D: Now what was Raeford Brewington's wife's name? You can only
think of her first name, you don't know her last name?
J: Her given name?
D: Yes. Did Raeford Brewington own any land in Sampson County and,
if so, how much did he own?
J: Well, somewhat over a thousand acres, I've always heard, and
that's the way it's always been told.
D: How did he get this land? Did he inherit it, or did he buy it,
or what?
J: I never did know.
D: Are you the brother, or half-brother to the late Mr. Charlie
Brewington who did a little book on the Indians in Sampson
County?
J: That's right.
D: You served in World War I?
J: I did.
D: And you have always known the Brewingtons, haven't you?
J: Yeah, I was raised up with them. My mother was one.
D: I see. Do you remember your grandfather, or your great-grandfather?





3
J: I remember my great-grandmother on my grandfather's side.
I remember Francis and I even remember Macie. Francis was
my grandmother, and Macie was my great-grandmother.
D: Have the Brewington's been in Sampson County for many years?
J: You take Grandpa Raeford when I was born. . I'd say a
hundred and fifty.
D: So they've been there in Sampson County for a long while. In
other words the Brewingtons were always there far as you can
go back. Do you remember your grandmother and your great-grandmother?
J: That's right.
D: Macie Ann Brewington was your ..
J: Mother.
D: Francis Hardin Brewington was your grandmother, and Raeford. . .
J: Raeford was my great-grandmother.
D: Yeah, Raeford Brewington was your great-grandmother. I see. Do
you remember her saying anything about her people?
J: No.
D: Are all the Brewingtons Indians?
J: Right.
D: Do you know of any colored Brewingtons?
J: No.
D: So Brewington is the prominent Indian name of Sampson County?
J: Right.
D: How did the name Brewington come about?
J: I've heard, I don't know how true it is, the Brewingtons got their.
name because they liked wines and ciders.
D: They were good brewers and they called them Brewington.
Is there more Brewingtons in Sampson today than any other Indian
name?
J: Yeah, I'd say so, unless they left mighty fast.





4
D: You have a lot of Hardins, Emmanuels, Jacobs, or Maynors?
J: Oh yeah. And Bells.
D: Can you think of any more prominent Indian names up there? Do
you have any Goins? Not right there, they're over in Durham, I
suppose.
J: There might be some Goins up there, but they're not one of the
old
D: Do you have any Oxendines, Locklears, or Lowerys?
J: No.
D: No Lowerys, unless they left from Robeson County. Now, Mr. Willie
Maynor came from Sampson County as a boy, didhe not?
J: That's right.
D: Most of these Maynors, I suppose, in the Pembroke area are
related to Mr. Willie Maynor. He just died a few months ago
at ninety-five.
J: That's right.
D: All of these Maynors stemmed from Mr. Willie Maynor?
J: That's what I understand.
D: Out of all these names, which one claims to show the most Indian
blood? Even today, which name will probably show more Indian
blood than any other name?
J: All of them I-called are still Indian.
D: Were there any Warwicks out there when you were a boy?
J: Yeah.
D: Where did the Warwicks come from? Did they-come from Robeson to
Sampson or did they leave Sampson and come to Robeson?
J: WellIidon't know but I think they first stopped here when they
come in to this country, and then went from here to Robeson.
D: You had heard that the Warwicks came from Mexico here, and walked?
J: That's right.
D: Where did you hear that story?





5
J: I heard that story from old folks talking.
D: Well, there's a lot to what people talk, I suppose. Do you
recall any of the boys talking about going into the Civil War?
J: Well, I used to hear my granddaddy Hard Brewington say that he
served in the Civil War. I wouldn't know about putting in the
dates.
D: It appears that in Robeson County the boys didn't do much
fighting in the.Civil War. Most of them went to work in the
batteries to make salt. Was this the case in Sampson County?
J: Well, to the best of my knowledge, something like that, I
think my graddaddy. . .
D: They were all the time talking about what they did rather than
fighting.
J: Yeah. He was a cook.
D: You don't know whether he wore a uniform or not, do you?
J: No, I don't.
D: You haven't seen any old Civil War uniforms up there in the
homes in the county?
J: No I haven't. He did get a pension.
D: How do you know?
J: I've been to town with him to get his check cashed. He'd get
one year. .I knew he'd get, at least, one because he'd look
for his check at Christmas.
D: Mr. Jones, will you tell us something about the turpentine industry?
Did you ever see any of your family working in the turpentine industry?
J: I say my dad and my uncle. I've kept a few boxes and I've dipped
a little resin myself. It's a pretty good job, walking through
the woods and toting an old resin bucket.
D: When I talk here with people your age they don't believe they dipped
any. Don't you think the turpentine industry lasted longer in
Sampson than it did in Robeson? Is this true?





6
J: I think so, according to the information you get here, that
they don't know anything about it here.
D: Well, they know a little about it, butI mean the people your
age didn't seem to have worked in:it.
J: Well, my dad worked the timber on his own farm, and he'd take
about a day out of the week to get boxes.
D: What would they do the other days, farm?
J: Farm, and then about every six or seven weeks he'd dip this
resin and put it in barrels.
D: How often would they dip the resin?
J: Once every six, seven, eight weeks.
D: In other words, not very much turpentine would run in a week's
time, would it?
J: No, not too much.
D: What would a big tree run in a week when you first cut it?
J: You mean in one week?
D: Yes.
J: Well, I'd say about a small glassful.
D: How much would this box hold on a big tree?
J: It would hold between a quart and a pint.
D: Now, you said it would run a glassful in-a week. It didn't run
that much all the time, did it?
J: Some pines would run better than others,
D: Would it run more the first week than it would any other
time?
J: Well, not necessarily. Some would stick along on the face of
where it was chipped, and then that would be scraped off along
the last, maybe a couple inches thick.





7
D: What would they use this turpentine for?
J: Well, they had a market for it.
D: They could use it for waterproofing boats and what have you.
J: At some place or another they'd send it to the still.
D: Did you ever see a turpentine still?
J: Well, not one in operation. There's one between Black River
and Beaman's Crossroads.
D: They did have them in the area.
J: They had them there, butI.never did go see-them being operated,
but I imagine there's old signs there yet.
D: Well listen, just getting about a cupful of turpentine, or
maybe a quart out of a tree, took a long time to fill up a
barrel, didn't it?
J: Oh, it didn't take long. You didn't have to lose too much time
with that one tree. You just go by and. . .
D: I imagine they had some nice paths through the woods. You didn't
have to fight the bears, did you?
J: No. Maybe there'd be three or four boxes in one tree.
D: Oh, you had more than-one box on one tree?
J: Sure. The larger the tree was, and you'd cut a box here, and you
get over there and have another one here and aonther one over
there.
D: The box was that thing at the bottom, right?
J: Right down there at the bottom.
D: What was this long thing where you scraped the bark off? What
did you call that?
J: You call that your roundshave.
D: Your what?





8
J: Your roundshave. It was on a hammer and you hook it up there
and cut you out a streak about . .
D: What would you call this streak of wood you cut out?
J: A shaving.
D: The tool that you used to pull it off was a round shaving?
J: You had the steel part and you had it in a round pull. They
called the pull the handle, and the shaver was made to catch
just right and you pull it and it would slip right through
and cut you out a streak of bark there, and sap about a
half inch deep, and maybe it would be about six-eight inches .
D: What was life like when you were a boy? What about your
food? What was your diet like when you were six or seven
years old?
J: Oh, we had plenty to -eat. We had peas, beans, chickens, pork,
most anything they got now and didn't have to go to the. . .
D: What did you buy in town?
J: We didn't go to town to buy cheese, sugar and coffee.
D: What was your shopping center when you were a boy, Clinton's?
J: Yeah.
D: Is Clinton a very old town?
J: Well, we didn't get those things. Older folks felt they weren't
.necessity. -There weren't Pepsi-Colas, orange drinks, and stuff
like that. There wasn't too much candy. You could get-plenty
of fruit, and something like that, but you weren't. . folks
hadn't. . .
D: Could you keep apples?
J: Oh yeah.
D: Could you keep apples until Christmas?
J: Yes sir.
D: How would you keep them?





9
J: We put apples in a barrel, and sprinkled a little dry sand on
them as we put them in there, and they'd keep right there. We
would set them back in the barn someplace in dry sand, to keep
the from freezing, and at Christmas, along when the apples give
out on the trees, you could just open you a keg of those and
go down in that sand and get apples when you wanted them.
D: Where would you get the dry sand from?
J: Oh, we'd get it out on the sand hills most anywhere, just so
it was dry topsand.
D: Yeah, it didn't have to be perfectly dry, I suppose. You
mentioned the names a while ago. You said all the Brewingtons
were Indians, no colored Brewingtons, no white Brewingtons that
you knew of, and what about the Hardins? Are they all Indians
too, or are some of them white?
J: Well, I'd say all the Hardins was Indians and Idon't know of
any of the old timers talk about hunting and fishing, or do you
remember any interesting hunting or fishing stories?
J: They used to talk about deer hunting.
D: Did they have lots of deer?
J: Oh yeah. It seems like they had plenty of deer at that time.
D: In other words, if they went deer hunting they would probably
come back with a deer?
J: That's right. You didn't have to get a too.large a crowd together
to rout one, the way they talked. Two or three of them could
get out and walk up to a deer right easy and shoot him or get
on him.
D: Do you have quite a few Indian land owners in Sampson County
today?
J: Why yeah.
D: Has lots of this land been in the families back to their
grandparents and great-grandparents?
J: Some of it has.
D: How about the Brewington estate? Is some of it still in the
family?





10
J: Oh, two or three hundred acres.
D: Well at least some of it's still in the family, and goes
back for maybe a hundred and fifty years.
J: That's right.
D: I believe you said Raeford Brewington owned probably 1,200 acres,
but you said you didn't know how he acquired this land.
J: No, I didn't know how he come by it.
D: Now, Mr. Jones, did you ever hear any of the grandparents or great-
grandparents talk about where their ancestors came from? Did
you ever hear anything along this line?? Any stories?
J: None of my grandparents.
D: Well, did you hear anyd f them say where their.-ancestors came
from? The Lost Colony, I believe you said, from Roanoake a
while ago, some of; them?
J: I said the Indians of Sampson County came from there. This special
tribe of Indians.
D: Do you recall any of type Indian people leaving and going to
other areas? Don't mean in recent years, but way back. I believe
you said some left and went to Halifax?
J: Yeah.
D: Is that where your brother Charlie Brewington, C.D.. Brewington
taught in later years? Up around Indians? Up at
Halifax, or ?
J: I think that's where he taught a while.
D: He worked up there in the same area, I-suppose. How would you
compare the wealth of the people in Sampson County when you
married. How would you compare the people economically? That
is, were they farmers or businessmen, wealthy or poor people?
I'm speaking of the Indian people.
J: I tell you what I think about. I think that in Sampson County
there's less poor people on the begging list, or whatever
you want to call it.
D: Than in Robeson?





11
J: Than there was in Robeson,according to the population.
D: Did the people in Sampson County seem to be as hard
workers as people in Robeson?
J: I think we have more people in Robeson County that's lower
than. . accroding to the population there are in Sampson
County.
D: You think there was more poor people in Robeson when you moved
here than in Sampson County?
J: Yeah.
D: What about education? On the whole, you say there were less people
among the Indians in Sampson who belong to the poverty class?
For some reason or other, they didn't seem to make the same
progress along the field, in the area in education. How would
you account for this?
J: I think that people in Robeson County became more interested in
.' education than the folks did in Sampson County. I think the
folks in Sampson County were a little slow, a little careless
about that part. They believed in working and not spending
much.
D: So perhaps you lacked one or two good leaders for education, like
W.L. Moore in Robeson County, who didn't push it as much.
J: I think that's it.
D: When it comes to prejudice towerds Indians, there's always been
all over the United States a certain degree of prejudice. Some
still exists today. Some don't like to give the Indian a fair
shake. Would you say there was more prejudice in Sampson
County during your boyhood days than in Robeson today, or even
at the time you moved? Where would you find more?
J: Well, I leave it like this. I never heard a white man say
anything against the Indians, in any way, form, or fashion. . .
D: This is in Sampson.
J: Yeah, in Sampson County.
They always got along good and were willing to.help one another.
and it looked to me like just any way the needed and would ask
for it.
D: :-In your boyhood days, what was a child like? Tell me relationship





12
to his parents, we'll say, when visitors were around, and
so forth. Let's talk about that some.
J: Well, when the neighbors came the older folks, the children
were apt to go on out and play. I went with my parents visit-
ing the neighbors' houses. When they got in they got to
talking. They'd tell the children to go out and play now,
and not make noise, just stay around there and play and
be quiet. So something like that is what we did. We didn't
sit and hear the conservation of the older folks, nothing like
that. We didn't get into that. We were out playing. When
they got ready to go, they'd let us know they were ready
to go and we were saying bye to our little folks and ready
to go.
D: Getting back to education, you didn't have very much formal
training. You didn't attend school very many years back in
your day, did you?
J: No.
D: Was this the case of most of the people of Sampson?
J: That's right.
D: Your brother Charlie who got a pretty good education, C. E.
Brewington. Where did he get his?
J: He got his where a person was able, and my Grandpa Hardy raised
me, and Grandpa Hardy had a big farm there and a big family.
D: Your Grandpa Hardy have an education?
J: Yeah.
D: Where did he get it?
J: I don't know. That might have been when he was going to school
with the whites, you know. He sent my half-brother Charlie,
Charlie Brewington, to school and kept him in school until
he finished high school, then he sent him off to college.
D: I see. You did the farming and he went to school.
J: Well, I was living with my dad. My Granddaddy Hardy raised
Charlie.
D: I-see. What was the'name of the school you attended as a boy?





13
J: New Bethel.
D: That was when? How old were you when you went to New Bethel?
J: I was about nine years old.
D: And who was your teacher? Mr. Brewington?
J: The Simmons lady. She was my first teacher.
D: You can't recall her first name?
J: I believe her name was Ida, Mrs. Ida Simmons.
D: Simmons is an Indian name isn't it?
J: Yeah. She stayed down below Clinton and we lived lower down
from Clinton.
D: You didn't live in the same community at the time.
J: She was my teacher for a year or two. There was no school bus.
D: Was this a one-room school?
J: Yes, a one-room school.
D: When did you get your first school bus.in Sampson County? Do
you have any idea when it was?
J: Yeah, I was grown then, and married. Fact is, I had children
old enough to go to school and we lived four-and-a-half or
five miles from school. That was a little job I did.
D: Did the whites have buses before the Indians?
J: Yeah. I went to the board of Education Committee for Indians,
the Indian Committee. I;.asked them and they said
I'd waited too late. I couldn't get them to go, so I spoke to
a fellow, Mr. Van, an attorney that lived right there close
to him.
D: :Let's see, that's the late Henry Van, that multi-millionaire?
J: No, it was his father.
D: Oh, his father Art Van.
J: Yeah. So he said yeah, I was entitled to transportation, not
only me, but several other families right there around me. He says. .





14
D: Is this near New Bethel, in Sampson New Bethel?
J: Yeah. He told me to go talk to Mr. Sherman Ward. He was one
of the commissioners, and I went to see him early that
morning. So he just got out. I tolk him my business. We
talked a little while and he told me the next Monday the Board
would meet, and for me to meet him down there and bring some
of my neighbors that was interested in it too. He said, "I
think we'll work some plan or another." So I did go and
met him down there, taking one of my brother-in-laws with
me.
D: What was his name?
J:
D: I see.
J: So I on it, and we drove a bus back to the schoolhouse
that day.
D: You wouldn't have gotten one then, if you hadn't asked for
it, would you?
J: No.
D: Well, why do you think they would wait for you to ask for every-
thing?
J: Well, does anybody just volunteer and give out? I think if a
person needs a thing, he ought to bewilling to ask for it.
D: Well they ought to give it to..him without asking for it in
that case but if he doesn't then he should ask for it and if
he doesn't get it then perhaps he should fight for it.
J: That's right. I think he ought to ask for it, and like you
say, Ibelieve he ought to ask for it, and then if he can't
get it by asking for it and he's entitled to it, well then
if he has to try some other way, try another way.
D: Getting back to your school. Was your school a one-room school?
J: Yes.
D: Did they have church in there too, or just a school?
J: Just a school.





15
D: I've often wondered why they didn't use the buildings for
church and school. Perhaps they didn't want to mix the
two.
J: I was about thirty, I'd say thirty by forty.
D: Thirty by forty. A fireplace in the end?
J: We had a heater. You were making a lot of progress in your
day.
J: A wood heater.
D: I thought you were going to say a big old fireplace at one end
as big as one end of the building.
J: No, it was a new building. They built the building,
wood heater.
D: How many sat to the desk? Three on the same desk?
J: Three on a desk.
D: I remember as a boy, three of us sat to the desk.
J: Three little fellows.
D: Thirty years ago we were using those in Robeson County. Mr. Jones,
you've been quite a successful farmer, one of the most successful
farmers in the area, I suppose, and you've made a good living
yet you didn't have very much formal training in school. What
do you contribute this to? Your parents didn't leave you any
estate. You seem to have acquired this later. What do you
contribute this to?
J: That's an easy answer. I didn't try to be extravagant, and I
eat plenty and wore half-way decent clothes and sent my kids
to school. After he turned eighteen and if he didn't want to
go to college it was:left up to him, but they all went, three
boys and three girls, and most of them finished college
except for two.
D: Well, lets' see. Looking at your family, your oldest son, M.S.,
Jr., he's in business in Pembroke, isn't he? In the dry
cleaning business and he owns a Texaco station, and also in
housing for college students. Now, your daughter Ruth, my wife,





16
is teaching in the public schools. I believe Doris is down
in Georgia in the real estate business. Her husband received
her Master's Degree in Music down in Georgia, and he left the
music field and went into the insurance business. There's
your son Rober, who's a successful fireman. And Lois, she's
a home economics teacher, although she's mostly keeping
house now and has married an insurance salesman. Let's see,
that's all of them but Sonny Jones.
J: He attended college in electronics.
D: Of course, he died at age 29. He was a great parachutist, a
sky diver. He formed a sky-diving unit and he was the president
of his club. I believe he died on about the 645th dive. Well
it seems that your family has been very successful. A businessman,
who marries a teacher, Stan married a teacher, Doris married a
teacher, and Ruth married a teacher. All of them have been
quite successful.
J: Looks like I didn't raise but one farmer.
D: Yeah, and he'll probably get along better than any of them. He's
a good farmer.
Quite a few of'[the Lumbee Indians, whether they are in
Sampson or Robeson, have been very successful. Oh, by the way,
do you think the people in Sampson and Robeson are of the
same stock? That is, do you think they came from the same
place? You think if we go back far enough we go into the same
families?
J: Well, according to what I've ehard, the Robeson County Indians
and Sampson County Indians on the coast here. .
D: Columbus County and other places.
J: . .are all from that tribe that left Roanoake. I always thought
that was the way it was, and that was about the only history
that they had to get any proof from at that time. I think they
were mighty close to one another.
D: Yeah, I think so too.. .Do you remember any celebrations that you
had in Sampson County? I know you still have the singing up
there, a big singing once a year, and a homecoming. Let's look
into the church situation. Have they had churches in Sampson
as long as you can remember?
J: Oh yeah.
D: As a boy, what was it like in church? Go ahead and describe it





17
just like it was. As they used to say, tell it like it is.
J: Along the last of July and August, there was a revival meeting.
When that revival meeting started everybody stopped working.
They were out there mighty early every morning.
D: You'd lay by the fire, then?
J: I laid by the cotton and corn, and there was no tobacco being
grown.
D: You didn't grow tobacco in Sampson when you were a boy?
J: Not when I was a small boy.
D: Did you grow any produce? They grow a lot of produce today.
J: Yeah, some of that.
D: Mostly cotton, wasn't it?
J: Cotton, corn, add potatoes. But this here tobacco business was
really sort of scattered, and so only about '25 or''26.
D: They began to work in tobacco along about 1925 or 1926.
J: IImean in 1925.
D: Yeah, 1925 and 1926. Very few grew it in the area before then.
J: There was just a few barn scattered around.
D: Wasn't that about the case in Robeson County, too?
J: It was somewhat that way.
D: Today, most of the Indian people in Sampson are engaged in
farming. There are more of them engaged in produce farming than
there are in Robeson, aren't they?
J: Yeah. They've beenproviding a produce market there for years.
They've been growing produce there for thirty-five years. I'd
say near forty years.
D: Don't you find that more of them are still working on the
farm in Sampson than in Robeson? Do they have as much industry
as we have? They don't seem to have as much.





18
J: In Clinton, a pretty good industry has moved in. Clinton
isn't what it used to be. A lot of folks left it, like
they did in other smaller towns, and went to other places.
They left the town, a lot of them. Wouldn't say that they're
much better. They don't believe in this poverty business
there, I don't think, as much as they so here in Robeson
County. The welfare stuff.
D: You don't have as many people on welfare, then?
J: Not as many. In other words, Inever knew anything about it
until I moved here.
D: Mr. Jones, did you go into World War I?
J: Yeah.
D: You were drafted, or did you volunteer?
J: I was drafted.
D: Did many of the Lumbees in Sampson go into World War I?
J: Yeah, lots of them.
D: Lots of them went into World War I?
J: They would examine them and all of them that graded the right
way, they would take them. If you were graded A-L you went.
D: Where did you go for your basic training?
J: I went to Charlotte, Camp Green.
D: I-thought maybe you went to Camp Jackson.
J: No.
D: Camp Green in Charlotte. How long did basic training last?
J: About two months.
D: Two months. And-then you went where?
J: I landed in Liverpool, England.
D: Where did you sail from in this country?
J: From New York.





19
D: That's exactly where I sailed from in World War II, and where
I landed. When you got to Liverpool how long did you stay in
England?
J: About forty-eight hours.
D: That wasn't long. Where did you go then?
J: I went across the English Channel in one of-those old boats,
and landed over there at a camp called Winchester.
D: That was in France.
J: I went from there on the train, and went to a new camp, a new
hospital camp near France, and I spent about eight
or nine months at the hospital camp.
D: Did you shoot a lot of Germans?
J: I never shot a one of them.
D: Well what did you do?
J: I was taking of those that were getting shot.
D: You were in themedical corps?
J: Yeah. That ended that.
D: Tell us about something else other than the medical corps. What
did your mom and dad think about you going into the service?
The Lumbees had never been anywhere. You think her son was going
away never to come back home again?
J: :I hadn't ever been nowhere and it seemed like a far ways to
me. I don't know what they thought about it. They didn't
say too much about it.
D: How did you feel about leaving home?
J: Well, nobody wants to leave home not knowing where he's going.
D: How were you treated? Did they treat you good?
J: Oh yeah.
D: You didn't see any discrimination?
J: No!
D: Were there any other Indian boys from Sampson in the same camp
with you?





20
J: In training there was. I was the only one that went across.
D: Were you the only one from Sampson?
J: I was the only Indian.
D: From the whole country?
J: In my company.
D: But others went into other companies, didn't they?
J: Oh yeah. The boys that went with me didn't go across with me.
I got sick while I was in the infantry. I came down with the
influenza.
D: You were in the infantry to start with.
J: They took me to the hospital. When I got out my company was
gone someplace, I don't know where. I stayed about a week,
eight or ten days, then they transferred me over there to the
hospital company, base hospital company. That's what I went
across with and that's what I stayed with.
D: Did the flu give you much trouble?
F: For twenty-four hours it hit me pretty heavy. After it was over,
I was put in the hospital and got my _
D: Did they give you shots then?
J: No.
D: No shots, just medicine. Quite a few people died in this area.
Did you have a lot of them dying in Sampson County during the
epidemic?
J: Oh yeah, my baby brother died with it.
D: Is that right?
J: Uh huh, David.
D: Well when you returned to Sampson what did you do?
J: I farmed and helped my brother have a crop.
D: Did they pay you to go to school or to farm, and so forth?





21
J: They didn't say anything about any pay, or school.
D: You never did receive any money after then? You didn't
receive any money to go to school or to farm from the
government?
J: No, there was nothing said about it. The government didn't
offer me anything.
D: So you had to get on your own..
J: They give me a ticket home.
D: How do you feel about this? Do yourfeel the government
ought to help these fellows who go into the service today?
J: I think if he doesn't have an edcuation they ought to let him
go to school.
D: What if he has an education? Do you feel that maybe they could
help put him in business?
J: They ought to see that he's got a job.
D: In other words, you favor giving people work to do rather
than passing out the buck?
J: Well I didn't get either one, they just turned me loose. They
give me a discharge, money to buy a ticket with.
D: What's some of the things that-happened in France that you'd
always remember as long as you live?
J: I saw many hurt men.
D: You mean wounded men?
J: Yes. I saw men who had just one leg,or one arm, or one side
of a face, or just one ear. I just thought about it. When I get
home, I'll see more folks walking on crutches than I ever
thought about. I arrived home and I haven't saw the first one
yet.
D: You saw them there but you didn't see them when you arrived
home.





22
J: I saw them in the hospital. They were coming every day
in that hospital and going out.
D: When you got home you never did see one who lost his leg.
J: I've seen some that were maybe in the service and were crippled.
But maybe he was in the Second World War, like this fellow here
in the dry cleaner with Stan. He lost it in the service,
but he was in World War II.
D: As you see the country today, what do you view the future
like? What do you think it's going to be like around Pembroke
ten, fifteen years from today? What is it going to be like
in Sampson? How is it going to differ? What changes are
going to take place?
J: Well, that's hard to say.
D: Let's break it down a little. What's going to happen to
farming, as you see it now?
J: The younger folks don't like to work anymore.
D: Yeah, I'd just about join that crowd.
J: They got to where they don't like to work. They like recreation,
riding, and I'll say that maybe some of them like schooling all
right. To get right out and do labor work like I used to do
when I was a boy ... I don't know one that think would
for the price like I worked when I was sixteen years old.
D: Kids are demanding more now. They want an automobile when
they're eighteen or nineteen.
J: They want an automobile when they turn sixteen.
D: Yeah, when they get their driver's license.
J: As soon as one gets his driver's license, and he wants an
automobile. I've heard that this week.
D: They don't want to work for that automobile.
J: Well, it makes wonder that as bad as he wants one, how is he
going to get one? Suppose he does get one in the wrong way?
D: Yes, and tears up the road once he gets it. So you're saying
that the Lumbees, like other people across the country, don't





23
want to work. They're looking for an easy way out.
J: That's right. I used to enjoy getting off from the farm
and help somebody to get fifty cents.
D: Did you absolutely like to work? Had you rather work than
to sit down?
J: Sure. I'd rather work for that fifty cents to put in my
pocket than to sit around. Then, if I got it I didn't
throw it away.
D: Well, you came up the hard way. Was money a problem for you?
J: Not then.
D: After you were married, were you always able to make ends
meet without any problems? Didn't you start as a tenant
farmer?
J: Yeah. I farmed. I got married in 1921, the 4th of January.
I rented me a little farm, a cotton and corn crop.
D: You mean you share-cropped it, don't you? Worked it on halves?
J: Right. That fall when I got through having my crop, I owed
my landlord $35.00.
D: This was the first year you was married?
J: Uh huh.
D: So how did y.u live that first year on $35.00?
J: When I wasn't in that field working my crop, I worked with
my landlord for a dollar and a half a day.
D: Did-you pick huckleberries in the summer back then?
J: Oh yeah, I picked huckleberries and I could make three dollars.
D: What did you sell them for a quart?
J: About fifteen cents.
D: -It seems you were a go-getter, and I suppose you sold a hog
once in a while?





24
J: If a fellow farming can't raise his chickens, milk, and
beef, he ain't a farming.
D: Have you ever farmed a year that you didn't sell any livestock
on the side?
J: I never have. I would sell a few hogs for folks to barbecue,
sell, and cut up in the market. I'd sell beef once in a
while to somebody, or a yearling.
D: You think if you were a young man today you could make money
like you used to make?
J: I'm making more.
D: Do you think you'd get along better?
J: Yeah.
D: You think the times are here but people just don't want to
work?
J: That's right. They ride, talk, sleep, eat and drink.
D: You've certainly been a hard working man. That's your reputation.
Mr. Jones, I haven't asked you anything about Henry Berry Lowry.
Did you hear about Henry Berry Lowry when you were a young
boy?
J: Not too much.
D: Did you hear of him at all in Sampson County? They don't
talk about him up there, now, like they did here?
J: Not as much. In 1918;you might have heard a little
something, I don't know.
D: It didn't stand out in the minds of the people like it did here.
J: AfterI got to visiting down here I'd hear different folks
speak about it.
D: Well from what you've heard to you think he-did a real swell
job?
J: I have no quarrel with what he done. I think Mr. Lowry was a
smart man. I:think anybody ought to demand his rights, and to
take hardship to get it.





25
D: That's what we go to war for, isn't it? You never did have
a fellow like Henry Berry Lowryin.Sampson, did you?
J: No. I never heard of outlaws up there in Sampson County.
D: Mr. Jones, it's been certainly a great privilege to sit here
with you, and I have enjoyed the interview.





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